# Should I leave my wife if she fails to satisfy me orally?



## thegreatwm (Aug 14, 2011)

Before anyone jumps on my case, I will start off with an analogy. Imagine that you bought a new car and you love it dearly. When you bought the car, the A.C. worked perfectly and it gave you no problems. One day, the A.C. stopped working and you found out that there was no way possible to repair it. Even though you love the car, you have to drive around unhappy and uncomfortable because you are hot due to the lack of A.C.. Would you continue to drive the car without the A.C. or would you trade it in for a new one even though you love your old one dearly? 

This is how I feel about my wife. She is currently pregnant and I'm getting recovering from a masturbation addiction. When we first got married. My wife would give me BJs whenever I asked her. Usually she wouldn't do it if I didn't ask. Last year, every time I asked for one, she always made a stupid excuse such as her mouth hurts or she doesn't feel like it. Please keep in mind that I never ejaculated in her mouth. 

Now, I understand that she is not always in the mood for sex (especially since she is pregnant) but she told me a couple months ago and she thinks BJs are disgusting and she doesn't want to give them to me anymore. I thought she was kidding but every time I asked about it, she gets really upset and defensive. She really stands her ground and refuses to satisfy me. This makes me upset because she used to give me Bjs before we were married and also during the first part of our marriage. I feel like I was scammed because I am young (28) and I can't imagine living my life without another BJ. If I was older, maybe I would be content with this but not at 28!

Now the issue is....What should I do? I really love her and we already have 1 son together. She is due to have the second baby in May. I have always did what she wanted to do sexually and I can't get anymore BJs? I help with chores around the house and I do everything a good man should but she neglects me on this. Like I mentioned before, I feel duped on the whole thing. The only option I think I have is to either leave her or either find someone on the side to satisfy me. She is a good woman and mother but I feel that she doesn't love me if she can't give me a bj. She knows that I am clean so there is no excuse for her not to satisfy me. I am also open to any tricks that anyone has that may change her mind and start to give them to me. I am thinking that if I can convince her that another women wants to give me one, she might submit on the issue. Please Help!


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Not to minimize your situation - I'm sure it sucks, no pun intended - but are BJs really so important to you that you'd bail on your two young children over this? 
Your frustrations are completely understandable, but the well-being of your kids should come first, you know? 

And I sure hope no one here tries to link the well-being of children to whether or not dad is getting blown. Kids won't notice, and don't care, whether dad is sexually frustrated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Yes I`d divorce my wife if she bait and switched me sexually as you describe.

I would indeed try all I could to remedy the situation but ultimately I wouldn`t have married a woman who was sexually incompatible with me so I see no reason to remain with one who becomes sexually incompatible with me after marriage.

I most certainly wouldn`t act as if my kids were an anchor tying me to a miserable sex life.

I`d divorce and the reason I don`t think I`ll ever have this problem is that my wife knows I`d divorce.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I would think that there is another issue that makes her feel not so willing to do this. 

In the past, how much of you love making was oral? Could it be that she got to the point that she feels that's all you want?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> I would think that there is another issue that makes her feel not so willing to do this.


There usually is another issue.
The lack of oral is usually a symptom of a larger problem and not the problem itself ..

BUT...

I did notice the OP stated he got oral "When he asked".
This leads me to believe she wasn`t really doing it because she liked it but because he wanted it.
After being married awhile she might just figure "What`s he gonna do now? He`s stuck"

Textbook bait & switch.

The OP would need to clarify his wifes past desire to have him in her mouth before I could begin to wonder if her lack of desire is only a symptom in this case.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I really don't see this ending well.

You can voice your unhappiness, that you'll leave her because she doesn't give bjs...then she'll give them, but not willingly and it will be mundane and lacking passion. Not to mention she'll feel degraded and that she's easily thrown away for not giving bjs.

So you leave behind your family. For bjs. While I'm sure it's frustrating, I just can't imagine leaving my husband if he stopped doggy style (my fave).

If you choose to talk to her, it needs to be lovingly...not "you will give me bjs or i'll leave".

And sometimes mouths do hurt. I have TMJ and sometimes I'm just out of commission.

Also, how is your hygiene?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

tacoma said:


> There usually is another issue.
> The lack of oral is usually a symptom of a larger problem and not the problem itself ..
> 
> BUT...
> ...


There is a chance that she did it to please him but did not enjoy it. And over time it got to be point that it seemed like a chore and was unpleasant. 

To say it's a textbook bait & switch implies that she only did it to get him and then stopped once she got him to marry her. It does not sound like that.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

tacoma said:


> There usually is another issue.
> The lack of oral is usually a symptom of a larger problem and not the problem itself ..
> 
> BUT...
> ...


You should have apps for that so you can just plug it in: 
DIVORCE HER
BAIT & SWITCH 
That's your answer to every problem. If every man took your advice the divorce rate would be 99%. There could be other reasons why this has happened and exploring them may actually help this man with his frusatrations.

If the problem has to do with a dynamic set up between them that is partically his doing, all of his relationships will end up in frustration. He can always divorce so what is the rusj.

Thegreatwm - 

Ummm, let's see, a 28 yo man, with one marriage come and gone, with an emotionally distraught ex that he left with two kids in diapers, paying maintenance and child support, and with visitation every other week, looking for a woman to give him bj's on demand. 

Does not look like a promising dating prospect. The question of why you left your wife may come up. You can lie but the fact remains that women with any common sense, will not find a man who leaves 2 young kids attractive. 

You'er unhappy but you are not a man who should get himself in a position where he cannot be respected by women. That will make you even more unhappy. 

The bj love thing - think about this rationally - is it love when you feel that seeking a sex act matters more than the pain and devastation of ditching your wife and kids? 

No I don't think you are that person, a man who commits to a women and has two kids is worth something in this society. He has to know that but what happened?

Something more than bj is missing from your marriage. You sound as if you don't feel loved or respected. It may be easier to focus on bj and not other more serious issues. 

Don't run from these problems. Try to work them out and work on being a man that garners respect and a partner willing to please him. Don't take your problems with you to the next relationship. 

You don't seem to appreciate your wife and the lovely children you brought into the world. Step back and look at that. That does not solve your unhappiness but it may help you to stay and work on things. 

That's the way I see it. But then again, I'm a women and I've never had bj's. Maybe they are like crack cocaine? 

I just read your other threads - lots of problems. There are two sides to every story though. MC?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Thegreatwm -
> 
> Ummm, let's see, a 28 yo man, with one marriage come and gone, with an emotionally distraught ex that he left with two kids in diapers, paying maintenance and child support, and with visitation every other week, looking for a woman to give him bj's on demand.
> 
> _Does not look like a promising dating prospect. _The question of why you left your wife may come up. You can lie but the fact remains that women with any common sense, will not find a man who leaves 2 young kids attractive.


:rofl:I love this! I doubt people who decide to walk think about how this set of facts would actually look on a dating website.



> You'er unhappy but you are not a man who should get himself in a position where he cannot be respected by women. That will make you even more unhappy.
> 
> The bj love thing - think about this rationally - is it love when you feel that seeking a sex act matters more than the pain and devastation of ditching your wife and kids?
> 
> ...


C602, I think you are absolutely right. If you are prepared to ditch your children over BJ's, you have problems. Big problems.

That said, I think the OP should feel he has the right to ask WHY his wife was willing to give him oral before, and now isn't, and to expect a full, honest and complete answer. By which I don't mean "I don't know" or "I don't feel like it any more".


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## thegreatwm (Aug 14, 2011)

Thanks for the input guys. I really do love my family but when I think about this issue, it really makes me upset. When I look back in the past, I don't think she was the type to go around blowing guys and she only did it to me when I asked. If this was not in her character, she should have been up front with me before we got married. I have always practiced good hygiene and I have not gained any substantial weight since we got married. I agree with the people that said that she feels that since I have been with her for this long, the lack of bjs will not bother me.

On the other hand, does she seriously expect me to stay with her and be happy if she cuts me off like this? I'm sure most women on this board knows what their husbands like and dislike sexually. If you decide to cut him off one day because it makes you feel better, do you really expect him to not cheat/leave you because of this?

I will try my best to sit down and talk to her about this to see why she has stopped. Only she knows the truth and whether or not she only did it in the beginning because she wanted to keep me. It's so hard to discuss it with her because she always gets defensive and upset when I ask now. It does sound kind of shallow to leave her due to lack of bjs but her neglect can also mean that she has gotten too comfortable in our relationship and that she will start to neglect other things in our future.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

thegreatwm said:


> I am thinking that if I can convince her that another women wants to give me one, she might submit on the issue.


Did you buy the car strictly for the AC? 

And I'm excited to hear how this little scenario goes... I'd be falling at my H's **** if he somehow convinced me of this...  

That said, that is not a good strategy at all. If anything, and you are serious about this and you are talking about ruining an entire family unit over BJ's, I would suggest you go get sex therapy with your wife... Explain what you explained here. I'm sure your wife and children deserve at least that from you before you ditch them for a woman who'll give you unlimited BJ's. And I do understand what you are saying, don't think I don't, but your children don't understand, and your wife probably doesn't understand the critical nature of this, or how it affects you. You need to explain it to her and find out what's really going on.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

thegreatwm said:


> This is how I feel about my wife. She is currently pregnant and I'm getting recovering from a masturbation addiction. When we first got married. My wife would give me BJs whenever I asked her. Usually she wouldn't do it if I didn't ask. Last year, every time I asked for one, she always made a stupid excuse such as her mouth hurts or she doesn't feel like it. Please keep in mind that I never ejaculated in her mouth.


Well since you are basing your marriage on your lack of BJ's yes divorce her find someone who will satisfy this need for you. You even stated it was something she never did even in the beginning unless you asked, so it must be something she doesn't care for. Goodness forbid there is something you don't particularly care for, and she wants a divorce over it.


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

I imagine if you don't divorce her now, she'll divorce you in a few years because she'll hate you by then. If my man even uttered the words "Another woman wants to" he would be sitting on the lawn with all his belongings. If you want to leave her, fine, that's your call. But don't try to manipulate her into doing it.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

JMO, but it sounds like you are looking for justification to step out side of your marriage, or maybe you already have, and feel a little guilt. 

BTW, to say that you love your family dearly, but then say, you might find someone on the side to satisfy you, is just obsurd. You are wanting to be a cake eater. Divorce her so you can be free to get your oral needs met.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

tacoma said:


> I most certainly wouldn`t act as if my kids were an anchor tying me to a miserable sex life.


Really? Really? You place your desire to get blown ahead of the mental, emotional, social and financial well being of your children?
I'm not sure I could come up with many things less manly than that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

If you are comparing your wife to a broken car or trying to figure out some 'trick' to get more bjs, or even suggesting that you could get it somewhere else, you are missing the point.
Yeah, it's ****ty that your wife used to give bjs and then stopped.. but it sounds like she was never into it anyway. Is there anything you used to do for her (outside the bedroom) that you stopped doing? 

I'm with everyone else here.. It's pretty bad to even think about leaving your family because you aren't getting the bjs. the well being of your kids comes first. Your wife's well being comes before you as well. Start focusing on this, stop whining about bjs and in the long run you might start getting more of what you want in the bedroom.

Also.. women can get disgusted by most anything when they're pregnant. They also might say mean things they don't don't really mean. It is NOT the time to whine and beg for bjs. Forget about sex for awhile unless she is interested. For the last month or two, and up to 6 weeks after childbirth you might have to go without, and that is perfectly normal. Instead of worrying about sex you should be treating her like a princess and waiting on her hand and foot! If you think you're doing enough, you're probably not! Give her time to recover from the miracle of life giving.. the way you treat her right now will have a HUGE impact on how she treats you later. Trust me on this.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

thegreatwm said:


> Before anyone jumps on my case, I will start off with an analogy. Imagine that you bought a new car and you love it dearly. When you bought the car, the A.C. worked perfectly and it gave you no problems. One day, the A.C. stopped working and you found out that there was no way possible to repair it. Even though you love the car, you have to drive around unhappy and uncomfortable because you are hot due to the lack of A.C.. Would you continue to drive the car without the A.C. or would you trade it in for a new one even though you love your old one dearly?


I would just roll down the windows and drive fast, enjoying the cool breeze and loving the wind blowing through my hair, until such time as I could fix the AC. There's more than one way to get cool and enjoy, even if the AC is out. 

There are a lot of things going on in your marriage, thegreatwm. Lack of BJs is probably just a symptom of all of the things that are ongoing, and they may be magnified in your eyes because they are something you enjoy and represent to you all of the love and respect that a wife can give.

Based upon your other threads, I think the best thing you could do is counseling - go yourself even if your wife won't go.

Best wishes.


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## Wantsmore (Sep 13, 2011)

You know this is my perspective on it.

You and your wife probably had a pretty decent, open line of communication about sex before the kids came. She and you both did things to pleasure and entice the other. Over time, she may or may not have liked the things she was doing and slowly started doing them less and less. Until the kids started coming into the picture. Now those things she won't do because she has it in her mind they are dirty and nasty and is uncomfortable doing them to you. I am a mother and Mom's don't do those things type of attitude. I get it, my wife did the same thing.

We recently had a (one sided) discussion about pushing our boundaries and trying new things in the bedroom. This is more or less the reply I got, don't like my answer shut up about it, why do you always want to talk about sex kind of answer. Needless to say I slept on the couch for the next two nights. Still a little upset about it and starting to have resentment about the whole thing. 

There is obviously issue you both have with one another. It sounds familiar. After being married for 15 years and being with her for 21 I am open to new things and wanting to do more with her. She thinks sex is you have 5 min, stick it do what you have to and let me go to sleep. Sorry I am not into that. Don;t get me wrong quickie sex is fun and all but if we have a quick one now, it only gets me in the mood for a long drawn out experience later on. She has known that for a long time and still doesn't get it.

You have your work cut out for you. Try to work on it. If things don't seem to be getting better. For your sake don't stay in a relationship that will ultimately end with the everyone hating each other. This goes way beyond just a BJ.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

thegreatwm, I do understand how your frustration can lead you to what seem to many here as "absurd" thoughts. As a guy with some needs not being met, I do admit that sometimes my mind gets carried away and I find myself trying to rationalize some absurd ideas as well. That's part of your chemical makeup as a human being at work, your mind is putting up defense mechanisms to protect your vulnerability.

But then you really need to make a concerted effort to sit back and try to steer your focus back out of the fog. You're letting your emotions drive your mind away from logical thinking.

BJ's may in fact be important to you, but not having some sexual needs being met is not a reason to ditch a marriage and family without trying to work things out first. Marriage and family is about commitment and hard work. It's about dedication. It's about sacrifice. But most importantly, a marriage needs communication and understanding to maintain love. 

Like others have said here, the BJ issue may in fact be the surface-layer focal point for you, but I'm willing to bet there's a lot of underlying issues in the marriage that are taking part in why you're not getting BJ's. And the necessary step in resolving any issues in a marriage involves communication first. Your wife may not have a genuine understanding how important BJ's are to you, and maybe that's because either you're not communicating it to her or the way you're communicating it feels too much like a one-sided blame game approach. It needs to be a sensitive discussion based on "your love for each other" and "having *both* of your needs met" in order to sustain a happy love and marriage together. It needs to be a discussion of "mutual" tone.

When you start working on issues together, as equals, you will probably find that you too are not meeting some of her needs. Sure, you do a lot around the house but maybe you're lacking in other areas you're not even aware of. That's what you need to also figure out, and the only way to do that is by starting the communication process with an open mind.

I found TAM because I was frustrated and searching for ways to improve my own sex life at home... but after only 2 months of being here I am starting to learn a lot about MYSELF and some of the areas I could improve as well. What I'm learning is that focusing only on my own needs is straight up selfish... but focusing on my needs with understanding of meeting my life partner's needs as well is very much the recipe to maintain a lasting relationship.

It is ok to feel some of these emotions you are feeling, but you need to get your head back into your marriage and family and start working it out. "...for better or *worse*..." doesn't mean you go running off to infidelity when things aren't smooth, it means you're both agreeing to fight through the hardships and work it out together.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Regardless of what some posters say, it's OK to be unhappy about your wife cutting you off from BJs. But, I would agree with them that, if everything else is great, you shouldn't divorce over BJs.

However, I think you need to nip this in the bud. The most common trajectory for a sexless marriage is a wife who starts to limit the sexual acts/positions, then decreases the frequency steadily to nothing, or next to nothing. It's likely that this isn't just about BJs. It's more likely that this is step 1 on the march to a sexless marriage.

The best way to get sex from your wife is not to ask for it. It's to become a sexier man. It's likely that if you divorce your wife and some handsome alpha male starts dating her, she'll be on her knees in no time. Your wife is probably not opposed to BJs in general, she's opposed to BJs with you. So you need to become someone she wants to give a BJ to.

Check out Married Man Sex Life and start running Athol's MAP in order to up your sex rank and get your wife more interested.

Good luck.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

nader said:


> If you are comparing your wife to a broken car or trying to figure out some 'trick' to get more bjs, or even suggesting that you could get it somewhere else, you are missing the point.
> Yeah, it's ****ty that your wife used to give bjs and then stopped.. but it sounds like she was never into it anyway. Is there anything you used to do for her (outside the bedroom) that you stopped doing?
> 
> I'm with everyone else here.. It's pretty bad to even think about leaving your family because you aren't getting the bjs. the well being of your kids comes first. Your wife's well being comes before you as well. Start focusing on this, stop whining about bjs and in the long run you might start getting more of what you want in the bedroom.
> ...


Just want to add that I never meant to say you shouldn't address this.. I agree with PHTlump and others that the lack of bjs is a legitimate concern that needs to be dealt with sooner or later. I was just trying to add perspective on the pregnancy as well, because halfway through a pregnancy is just not the best time to deal with this.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

What bottled up said.

What you feel is not unusual and a sign that you are a jerk. You may be too focused on one source of frustration and missing others that are really the root cause. Try to re-establish the dynamic that you had when she was motivated to please you. 

What were you like, what was she like and what was the relationship like? THere is nothing wrong with asking her what happened but be prepared to listen carefully. 

If she gives you a non-answer, follow it up with other questions about her and how she is feeling. Say something that shows you love and care about her. 

Would you be comfortable saying "you seem unhappy and I love you and want you to be happy. Tell me what I need to do to make you happy?"

If there is conflict, unresolved problems, immaturity, disrespect, selfishness on both sides then your relationship will not flourish. 

If you hound her for a bj while ignoring other problems then you will never establish a satisfying sex life and the rest of the relationship will suffer. Best wishes.


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

You said you're recovering from masturbation addiction. Maybe you are so focused on oral, because its become a need to replace the masturbation addiction? I know you had oral before with your wife I'm just saying its what you really seem to be more focused on that anything.


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## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Thegreatwm - 

Ummm, let's see, a 28 yo man, with one marriage come and gone, with an emotionally distraught ex that he left with two kids in diapers, paying maintenance and child support, and with visitation every other week, looking for a woman to give him bj's on demand. 

Does not look like a promising dating prospect. The question of why you left your wife may come up. You can lie but the fact remains that women with any common sense, will not find a man who leaves 2 young kids attractive. 

:lol::lol:

The OP needs to grow up a little...just sayin.


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## TallJeff (Nov 1, 2011)

thegreatwm said:


> I do everything a good man should


If you're considering leaving your kids because of this one thing, then you're definition of a good man differs from mine.

I know it's frustrating. I know we all love good oral. How often do you go down on her? Do you do _everything_ (and I just don't mean sexually) that _she_ wants?

If the only people who stayed married were men getting good & frequent BJs, the vast majority of houses wouldn't need 2-car garages.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

*Should I leave my wife if she fails to satisfy me orally? *

Yes! Immediately file for divorce and leave her if she won't give you a bl-w job!


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## TallJeff (Nov 1, 2011)

I had another thought here.

You seem to be very impatient with your wife.

Kids require more patience than anything else in this world.

So maybe you'd be better off to just abandon the children, you probably don't have the patience to be a father anyway.

You can then find a very dysfunctional woman who would prioritize orally servicing you over all her other duties.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

I cannot believe how often this topic comes up. This is a complete knuckle dragger question.

Really? You would leave your wife because she does not give you BJ's? Well lets hope she comes to her senses and starts giving you those unenthusiastic half hearted BJ's so this marriage can be maintained.

Personally I love giving oral and my W seems to quite enjoy that. Now I do not demand BJ's or even ask for them and they are a rare treat. On occasion she gets inspired and just wants to do it. Are they great? No. Do I love it? Absolutely! Because she is enjoying what she is doing it and that is the only time I want her to do it. 

Get some perspective guy and cut your pregnant wife some slack.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Not saying I agree with the op. He should give this more than a few months before he goes off the deep end.

Looking at this from a completly differnt perspective though I can understand how you would feel like it is a bait and switch. One of the things my wife has always loved about me is that I am great at communicating what is going on in my head, my MC even commented on it. Is it something that I have always done? NO. It is something that I have worked on for quite a while and was uncomfortable for me to learn but I did anyway. Now after I got married I all of a sudden out of the blue just decide to say, ya know I don't like being open with you and am just going to quit doing this, how well do you think that would go over? I am betting over time it would wear and she would leave. Why would somebody just leave over something that their partner just stopped doing. Was it because it was something that they loved about them in the first place? Maybe the op loves his wive and one of the things that he loves about her was her willingness to give BJs. Someone please explain the differnce here? If my wife was on here complaining that I refuse to communicate with her I bet the same people railing this guy would have no problem if she said she wanted to leave.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm not real sure about the bait and switch thing, although I'm sure it does happen.

I think most of the time people show you who they are from the beginning but people don't always choose to notice, or they do but turn a blind eye in hopes things will change. 

However, You stated your wife used to give you BJ's but it was something she never did on her own unless you asked. That tells me she wasn't into that from the beginning, so there fore you chose to look the other way with what you may have already known up front. I'm sure the more you asked her to do them, you probably hoped she would eventually like it and start to do them on her own. That rarely happens with someone who has shown you what they are not into to begin with. If it was something she liked or wanted to do, she wouldn't have minded giving them to you without you asking, but that was not the case.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

uphillbattle said:


> Not saying I agree with the op. He should give this more than a few months before he goes off the deep end.
> 
> Looking at this from a completly differnt perspective though I can understand how you would feel like it is a bait and switch. One of the things my wife has always loved about me is that I am great at communicating what is going on in my head, my MC even commented on it. Is it something that I have always done? NO. It is something that I have worked on for quite a while and was uncomfortable for me to learn but I did anyway. Now after I got married I all of a sudden out of the blue just decide to say, ya know I don't like being open with you and am just going to quit doing this, how well do you think that would go over? I am betting over time it would wear and she would leave. Why would somebody just leave over something that their partner just stopped doing. Was it because it was something that they loved about them in the first place? Maybe the op loves his wive and one of the things that he loves about her was her willingness to give BJs. Someone please explain the differnce here? If my wife was on here complaining that I refuse to communicate with her I bet the same people railing this guy would have no problem if she said she wanted to leave.


You are comparing a fundamental part of any relationship, communication... As far as I can tell what the OP is talking about is a perk in a relationship. I don't think anyone is saying he shouldn't address this, but to end a marriage and destroy a unit over this, is a bit shallow in my opinion. 

A better comparison I think, is actually going on in my marriage. I use to love football, NFL. We met that way actually... And he always would boast that his wife watches football and is enthusiastic about it. Two kids later, 3 years old, Sunday football gets put on the back burner, if I can't sit for 3 hours and watch a game with my H, should he get pissy and leave me over it, perhaps go find a woman who will sit and watch a game with him? No, he just watches his game and I sit and join him if I can or feel like it. For whatever reason, the OP's wife does not like giving BJ's anymore. It should be addressed, and the OP should be prepared for whatever reason or nonreason she gives. He should back off during her pregnancy.... Revisit the situation when her body and well being is more normal... I think I read somewhere that she is six month's along? I don't know, I think the OP should chill for several more months and revisit it when all is said and done with the pregnancy. Unless of course BJ's are that important right now, then by all means the OP should divorce his wife and children


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Cherry said:


> You are comparing a fundamental part of any relationship, communication... As far as I can tell what the OP is talking about is a perk in a relationship.


Are you telling us that a healthy and satisifying sex life is not a fundamental part of a marriage?


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Cherry said:


> You are comparing a fundamental part of any relationship, communication... As far as I can tell what the OP is talking about is a perk in a relationship. I don't think anyone is saying he shouldn't address this, but to end a marriage and destroy a unit over this, is a bit shallow in my opinion.
> 
> A better comparison I think, is actually going on in my marriage. I use to love football, NFL. We met that way actually... And he always would boast that his wife watches football and is enthusiastic about it. Two kids later, 3 years old, Sunday football gets put on the back burner, if I can't sit for 3 hours and watch a game with my H, should he get pissy and leave me over it, perhaps go find a woman who will sit and watch a game with him? No, he just watches his game and I sit and join him if I can or feel like it. For whatever reason, the OP's wife does not like giving BJ's anymore. It should be addressed, and the OP should be prepared for whatever reason or nonreason she gives.
> *Differnt situation. She told him that she doesn't like it and just doesn't want to do it anymore. It is not as if her likes and dislikes have changed or the situation has changed. She should have told him this upfront before he put the ring on her finger.
> ...


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

My answer is simple. No.

My husband has always put my needs before his. Even if that meant no oral sex. My husband is very patient and loves me very much. Not once did he ever show disappointment when I turned down oral or sex. It took me 12 years before I was comfortable to give oral in the first place. Never would I give this under demands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

uphillbattle said:


> Are you telling us that a healthy and satisifying sex life is not a fundamental part of a marriage?


Not saying that at all, and as far as this thread goes, the OP has not complained about not having a satisfying overall sex life... If everything sucked about the sex life, that's a different story, but he's complaining about the lack of oral right now. It's something that needs to be addressed, yes, but to bring it up now and threaten divorce or having another woman do it, well, that's BS... She's carrying his child right now and he's asking if he should divorce her if she doesn't suck his ****. Pretty ****ty if you ask me... The OP needs to focus on his wife's pregnancy and making her as comfortable as possible, not be demanding she get on her knees or he'll find someone else... Just saying. I'm just waiting for the day when a man can be pregnant.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

trey69 said:


> I'm not real sure about the bait and switch thing, although I'm sure it does happen.
> 
> I think most of the time people show you who they are from the beginning but people don't always choose to notice, or they do but turn a blind eye in hopes things will change.
> 
> However, You stated your wife used to give you BJ's but it was something she never did on her own unless you asked. That tells me she wasn't into that from the beginning, so there fore you chose to look the other way with what you may have already known up front. I'm sure the more you asked her to do them, you probably hoped she would eventually like it and start to do them on her own. That rarely happens with someone who has shown you what they are not into to begin with. If it was something she liked or wanted to do, she wouldn't have minded giving them to you without you asking, but that was not the case.


:iagree:

This is very well could be what happened. I do think people marry knowing certain things about their spouse but they hope it will change. 

I agree that if she didn't do it on her own without him having to ask, it was more than likely something she didn't care for. Maybe he is also upset not only with not getting BJ's, but he is upset with himself knowing she didn't care for to begin with but married her anyway.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Cherry said:


> Not saying that at all, and as far as this thread goes, the OP has not complained about not having a satisfying overall sex life... If everything sucked about the sex life, that's a different story, but he's complaining about the lack of oral right now. It's something that needs to be addressed, yes, but to bring it up now and threaten divorce or having another woman do it, well, that's BS... She's carrying his child right now and he's asking if he should divorce her if she doesn't suck his ****. Pretty ****ty if you ask me... The OP needs to focus on his wife's pregnancy and making her as comfortable as possible, not be demanding she get on her knees or he'll find someone else... Just saying. I'm just waiting for the day when a man can be pregnant.


While I still agree about the pregnancy 100%, are you saying that complaing about oral isn't complaing about his sex life? I am pretty sure oral is a part of it, and for him it is obviously a HUGE part of it. I am by no means saying that I agree with it holding such an importance in a marriage or a sex life for that matter but I am not going to sit here and tell him HOW IMPORTANT it should be to him. 

Once agian, had she told him this info BEFORE they where married it would be a differnt story. He could have made an informed decision based on what is important to HIM on weather or not to marry her but she took that decision out of his hands by not telling him and continuing to give them to him.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

uphillbattle said:


> Are you telling us that a healthy and satisifying sex life is not a fundamental part of a marriage?


Are you saying that bj on demand from the mother of his kids who is 6 months pregnant and his subsequent dissatisfaction constitutes a fundamentally unhealthy sex life in this marriage? Is love so fragile that one sex act, puts a marriage in peril? 

A temporary interruption in one sex act over the course of a LTR is no reason for dissatisfaction. A mature man would react calmly with the understanding that pregnancy is an emotionally draining state and senses are hightened. It is reasonable to tolerate some changes in sex without having a tantrum. 

A mature man would take the long view and set up a response that preserves his wife's respect and admiration for hiim. Further, he would not stress his wife who is having his child with sexual demands and threats of abandonment. 

I think that if her husband think that not getting a bj is justification for his frantic immature childish behavior that she should keep him around until she can get back to work get her bearings with the kids and then get rid of him. He is then free to find a women to give him bj on demand if it is her idea of a healthy satisfying sex life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> My answer is simple. No.
> 
> My husband has always put my needs before his. Even if that meant no oral sex. My husband is very patient and loves me very much. Not once did he ever show disappointment when I turned down oral or sex. It took me 12 years before I was comfortable to give oral in the first place. Never would I give this under demands.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So I am assuming he knew before hand that you didn't want to give them and it wouldn't be a normal part of sex for you guys. Thats great. It wasn't that improtant to him so he could make that decision and feel happy with his sex life. What makes him happy is not necessarly the same for all people. Atleast he knew upfront and could make that decison, you where not misleading him in anyway and where forthcomming with that information.
My wife hates oral also. Although when we first got together she told me that she didn't mind so long as it went both ways. She had never been with a guy before that liked going down and was verry supprised that I enjoyed it as much if not more that recieving. At that point she told me she doesn't like it, long before I put a ring on her finger. I was able to make an informed decison on weather it was an important enough aspect to my sex life for me to continue with her for the rest of my life. This man was not afforded the same option. 

What he values in his sex life is not for me to judge. I do belive that a healthy and satisfying sex life is a fundimental part of a healthy marrige. I also belive it is ones own opinion as to what a healthy and satisifying sex life is with thier partner.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

uphillbattle said:


> While I still agree about the pregnancy 100%, are you saying that complaing about oral isn't complaing about his sex life? I am pretty sure oral is a part of it, and for him it is obviously a HUGE part of it. I am by no means saying that I agree with it holding such an importance in a marriage or a sex life for that matter but I am not going to sit here and tell him HOW IMPORTANT it should be to him.
> 
> Once agian, had she told him this info BEFORE they where married it would be a differnt story. He could have made an informed decision based on what is important to HIM on weather or not to marry her but she took that decision out of his hands by not telling him and continuing to give them to him.


I am a woman, I cannot tell a man that oral sex is not important to him. But I can say that if this was that big of a deal for the OP, he should've found a woman who loves to give them, his wife does not and has never liked giving them.... She did, but for reasons only she knows right now, she doesn't want to now. 

To the part about telling the OP how important this should be to him, I agree, none of us can tell him how important this should be. But I hope the OP can take a step back and evaluate all of it with a clear head, by reading this thread and some of the responses. I came here years ago complaining about my H always wanting sex and what can I do to make him stop, blah blah... Little did I know I would soon learn that I was wrong in that situation, I was the one who needed to look at my marriage and my situation more openly, look at sex with my spouse as something other than I was looking at it at that time... I learned some things I wasn't expecting to. Maybe the OP can step back, if he's not getting the oral he needs right now, maybe learn other ways of communicating his needs, not the "I'll find someone else and leave my wife and kids because of it" knee jerk reaction he originally posted. That's all I'm trying to say


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I think it is stupid to base a commitment to marry on getting bj's. If getting them is so important then don't get married. Have sex with 3 or 4 lucky bj women and when they stop, dump them and replace them with another. Never get pinnned down with kids. Have an exit strategy when she refuses bj 3 times over the course of a month. 

That is a reasonable solution. He could make the rounds and get 4 or more bj's a day for the rest of his life. Sounds like heaven, right? Hell for women who allow their mouths to be used to masturbate a man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Are you saying that bj on demand from the mother of his kids who is 6 months pregnant and his subsequent dissatisfaction constitutes a fundamentally unhealthy sex life in this marriage? Is love so fragile that one sex act, puts a marriage in peril?
> 
> 
> *I actually agreed with the timing of it all is not right and should wait until after everything settles down before addressing this or going off the deep end, but hey why not ignore and try to base a point around emotion. But her statement was not that she would stop giving them for the moment it was a permant. It is his decison on what he constitutes is a healty sex life, he married her believing that he had a healty sex life. If she is chosing to change that after the fact then he has a right to be pissed about it.*
> ...


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Sounds like heven, right? Hell for women who allow their mouths to be used to masturbate a man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fortunately, there are plenty of women out there who don't view oral sex so crudely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Cherry said:


> I am a woman, I cannot tell a man that oral sex is not important to him. But I can say that if this was that big of a deal for the OP, he should've found a woman who loves to give them, his wife does not and has never liked giving them.... She did, but for reasons only she knows right now, she doesn't want to now.
> 
> *If she was willing to do this when he asked and she had nothing bad to say about it, why should he think it is going to change before she actually said something?*
> 
> ...


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I think it is stupid to base a commitment to marry on getting bj's. If getting them is so important then don't get married. *
> 
> He got married to her thinking that this wouldn't stop. Otherwise he may not of, I would like to see the OPs opinion on that part of it.*
> 
> ...


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

uphillbattle said:


> So I am assuming he knew before hand that you didn't want to give them and it wouldn't be a normal part of sex for you guys. Thats great. It wasn't that improtant to him so he could make that decision and feel happy with his sex life. What makes him happy is not necessarly the same for all people. Atleast he knew upfront and could make that decison, you where not misleading him in anyway and where forthcomming with that information.
> My wife hates oral also. Although when we first got together she told me that she didn't mind so long as it went both ways. She had never been with a guy before that liked going down and was verry supprised that I enjoyed it as much if not more that recieving. At that point she told me she doesn't like it, long before I put a ring on her finger. I was able to make an informed decison on weather it was an important enough aspect to my sex life for me to continue with her for the rest of my life. This man was not afforded the same option.
> 
> What he values in his sex life is not for me to judge. I do belive that a healthy and satisfying sex life is a fundimental part of a healthy marrige. I also belive it is ones own opinion as to what a healthy and satisifying sex life is with thier partner.


Yes, it was important, but not at the top of the list. Not once did he get upset with me turning it down. He stopped asking all together and it became one of his fantasies.

Let me tell you, I was not comfortable enough to give oral until my husband and I were emotionally and physically connected to each other. Our bond is so strong right now, more so now then any other time in our marriage. We tried different ways in the past. I can not stomach semen. I've tried lubes and condoms for the pre ejaculation. I FINALLY found one I LOVE!!!! It's by ID Juicy Lube mint flavor. We use bj's as foreplay mostly. 

It took a long time, but we worked through this as a team. My husband holds zero resentment towards me, ever. I'm sure he was disappointed, but he never showed. My husband truly loves me for who I am and not what I can sexually give. He is what you call a "nice guy". He has alpha traits, but not towards me. We communicate extremely well, we never argue. Since the increased sex between us, he has become extremely affecionate. We cuddle, hold hands, talk, ect.. every night for at least 1/2 hour(this does not include sex). My husband and I have always had a great relationship. We love to spend time with each other.

There must be more issues between you and your wife for you to feel the need of a divorce. BJ's alone is very shallow in my opinion. I'm not saying you are shallow as a person, it's a shallow reason. One thing that would make me want to do it less is if this act was suggested under demand. Even sex. My husband would feel the same way if the tables were turned. Neither one of us demand anything of one another.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Uphill ... I don't think people are trying to devalue OP's feelings, but rather suggest his priorities are way out of wack if he's willing to destroy his family and abandon his children over whether or not his **** is getting sucked. It seems an extraordinarily immature outlook.

My guess, as has been suggested previously, his wife didn't stop doing it just because. There's likely an underlying issue here. Discover and address the issue, and the bjs may very well return.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Only you can make that decission.

if its truly important to you then you might want to leave your spouce but I would venture to say your not sexually compatible.
Its not the bj thing and if she really don't like giving them then they arn't worth getting. 


never had a good blow job from someone who don't like to give them.its that simple some one who dose not like to give them are usually bad at giving them anyways.



also Its not very pleasurable recieving something so intimate from someone you had to force to do it.


you guys just arnd't compatible sexually.

it happens maybe it is time to move on.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Uphill ... I don't think people are trying to devalue OP's feelings, but rather suggest his priorities are way out of wack if he's willing to destroy his family and abandon his children over whether or not his **** is getting sucked. It seems an extraordinarily immature outlook.
> 
> *When you put it in those terms it does and yet, someone with a little more grace in writing style lets say SA comes on here and make it sound like unicorns and rainbows. The fact is she still canged up mid game and to him what she changed is more important to him than most of us.*
> 
> ...


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

People change. He can choose to leave her. Not my problem.

However, did he only marry her because she sucked his ****? If so, then yea, major deal breaker.

Did he talk to her BEFORE marriage about how important it was to him? Probably not. She has the right to not want to do it. He has the right to leave.

Doesn't mean it's a good decision.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

thegreatwm said:


> Before anyone jumps on my case, I will start off with an analogy. Imagine that you bought a new car and you love it dearly. When you bought the car, the A.C. worked perfectly and it gave you no problems. One day, the A.C. stopped working and you found out that there was no way possible to repair it. Even though you love the car, you have to drive around unhappy and uncomfortable because you are hot due to the lack of A.C.. Would you continue to drive the car without the A.C. or would you trade it in for a new one even though you love your old one dearly?
> 
> This is how I feel about my wife. She is currently pregnant and I'm getting recovering from a masturbation addiction. When we first got married. My wife would give me BJs whenever I asked her. Usually she wouldn't do it if I didn't ask. Last year, every time I asked for one, she always made a stupid excuse such as her mouth hurts or she doesn't feel like it. Please keep in mind that I never ejaculated in her mouth.
> 
> ...


No offense...but...Are you really serious?!?!? You are going to tell your pregnant wife that some other woman would suck your D... and ya think that that would make your w want to?!?!?!? Ya right!!! I would say sure dear...and bite it off!!!  She is pregnant and has hormones! Things that she used to love she might find nauseating for NOW. She is in her second trimester and probably freak'n miserable. If use to give you bj's before I'm sure after birth she will again. But shame on you, even questioning to leave your PREGNANT wife because you haven't gotten your d sucked for a couple of months?!?!?


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Yes, it was important, but not at the top of the list.
> 
> *That doesn't make it wrong to be at the top of the OP's list.*
> Not once did he get upset with me turning it down. He stopped asking all together and it became one of his fantasies.
> ...


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

The OP has another thread about being addicted to masturbation. I personally think the OP is addicted to sex. It was suggested in that thread that he see a therapist about it... Perhaps that would be a good suggestion here too as he is considering stepping out of his marriage for this one act of satisfaction, especially given the circumstances with his wife and her pregnancy. Good luck to the OP and his wife and kids


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Fortunately, there are plenty of women out there who don't view oral sex so crudely.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes that right, with a man who does not view oral sex crudely. Women will give bj to some men and not others. If I were into wagering I'd say there are good odds that the OP would have similar problem no matter who he is with. 

He is so anxious and out of control, not attractive. His wife will give to a man with more mastery over himself and his environment. She is testing him and he failed. I for one, want him to see it that way. He is in control, he needs to act like man a strong man as one of the posters said. 

Let me ask - do you know men who have problems getting oral sex in repeatedly in their relationships and some who never have problems? Did it occur to you that it may be the man and not the woman? 

Isn't that a more positive way of looking at it? That means that a man has some control over the outcome and it is not the stupid bait and switch garbage. You know many women because of the man you are and the quality of women you attract.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

I would like to say I am sorry for being a troll on this one. I have been watching my wife who is a master at making a point no matter how wrong she may be. I took what I see her do to me and tried to apply it to something I knew was wrong and wanted to see if I could pull it off. I think I have learned well from her. I won't do it agian on here. Once agian, sorry.

My honest opinion on the matter is, I wouldn't leave the woman I love while pregnant without her doing something verry drastic i.e. cheating or some form of abuse. If I had some type of problem, the time to act out on it would not be while she is knocked up and I think the OP should wait until things settle and bring up his concerns. She is your wife and is going through a hell of a time right now and your ONLY concern should be her and your children's wellbeing at the moment.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Yes that right, with a man who does not view oral sex crudely. Women will give bj to some men and not others. If I were into wagering I'd say there are good odds that the OP would have similar problem no matter who he is with.
> 
> He is so anxious and out of control, not attractive. His wife will give to a man with more mastery over himself and his environment. She is testing him and he failed. I for one, want him to see it that way. He is in control, he needs to act like man a strong man as one of the posters said.
> 
> ...


Sure, sure, sure. Blame the man. He's out of control, yada, yada, yada.
Your theory might hold a sliver of truth here but for the fact the OP's wife did, at one time, give him oral sex. So the idea that it's a change in his attitude toward it that's causing her to stop seems far-fetched. 

It's much more likely that something regarding her attitude changed. Perhaps she read how it's little more than providing one's mouth as a place for him to masturbate. That's such a positive outlook, after all.

To be clear, I don't think OP is dealing with this well. But it seems your kneejerk reaction everytime one of these threads pop up is the blame the man and make him out to be some kind of ogre.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

Cherry said:


> The OP has another thread about being addicted to masturbation. I personally think the OP is addicted to sex. It was suggested in that thread that he see a therapist about it... Perhaps that would be a good suggestion here too as he is considering stepping out of his marriage for this one act of satisfaction, especially given the circumstances with his wife and her pregnancy. Good luck to the OP and his wife and kids



Yep, I'm the one who mentioned it on page two, (See below) and I wondered if this might be what was going on. 

"You said you're recovering from masturbation addiction. Maybe you are so focused on oral, because its become a need to replace the masturbation addiction? I know you had oral before with your wife I'm just saying its what you really seem to be more focused on that anything."


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> Yes that right, with a man who does not view oral sex crudely. Women will give bj to some men and not others.
> 
> *I find it kind of odd that you are speaking for yourself but claim to be speaking for the feelings of all women here. I have seen women on here every bit as crude as any man I know. Including your protrayal of the op.*
> 
> ...


Ok, I am not trolling on this one it made me laugh a bit so I needed to comment.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

This thread is now just an ongoing argument amongst each other and I don't think the OP is even following it any more!!!


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## thegreatwm (Aug 14, 2011)

I really appreciate all the responses here as it has helped me to evaluate myself better as well as my marriage. I don't want to appear as coming off as shallow because despite what some may think, I am not a shallow person. I did not marry my wife just because she gave me bjs. To be honest, they were mediocre but adequate when she tried. The Bjs were one of the perks that came with the package when I chose to marry her. Looking back, it was probably something that she did not like doing in the first place but I was too blind to see this before.

I never realized how important BJs were to me but when I look at the bigger picture, I don't see this ending well. First of all, I feel disrespected that she will even deny me bjs for an indefinite period. I'm sure everyone here has a favorite sex position/act that they enjoy. How would you like it if your spouse one day said that we are not doing X anymore because I don't like it? Like I mentioned before, I am only 28 and the idea of never getting a BJ for the rest of my life sickens me. I mentioned that I feel disrespected by this because if she feels that she has the power to take the BJs away from me, she will feel that she can remove anything out of my life that I love. What if she said that we can no longer have a tv in the house because she doesn't like it? Even though that sounds far fetched, I believe it falls under the same guidelines.

The next thing I don't understand is what my wife expects to happen if she doesn't give me anymore bjs in our relationship. Could any woman on this board tell me with a straight face that they can deny their husband bjs for eternity and not expect him to try to get them from someone else? Nobody is immune from temptation and these days, we are surrounded by sex and temptation everyday. The whole point of dedicating yourself to one person is to try to please them so they won't have to look for alternative places for pleasure. For example, if Hilary Clinton was already under the desk giving Bill bjs, there would have been no room for Monica to be there.

I have taken into consideration that my wife is pregnant and because of this, I will give her a pass for now. I have always satisfied her orally because I enjoy it as much as she does. Even if I didn't enjoy it, I would still do it for her because I know that she enjoys it and if I don't do it, someone else will. Just last night, I satisfied her orally and all I received in return was a HJ. I could have easily given myself a HJ so I don't believe that this was an equal exchange. I understand that people have suggest that I should wait until after she has the baby until I push the issue further. Can anyone honestly see this ending well? If she refuses to give Bjs when we had 1 child, why would she all of the sudden start giving them when we have 2 children and twice the chores? How long should I keep this on the backburner? After 2 or 3 years of not getting BJs, will I be totally immune to the desire of wanting them? I know I will look like a total @$$ if I drug my pregnant wife into sex counseling now so I guess my only option now is to wait and hope for the best...


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

Whatever it is making your marriage miserable, I do hope you and your wife are able to work things out and compromise. 

If she was giving you oral sex, then stopped. Something is going on. I would assume her needs are not being met, therefore your needs are not being met either. Maybe MC would help, especially one who deals with sex therapy. 

It really sounds like your blaming your wife for this issue. Maybe you need to take a step back and look at the big picture. Figure out why it stopped. It sounds like she has lost trust in you. I can see this happening if you are pushy towards her. No one likes to be told what to do. Holding resentments against your wife is not helping. You do have a family to think about. I don't know the age of your children, but if they are young, they come first. I'm sure she doesn't appreciate the finger pointed at her when you tell her what she's doing is wrong.

Anyways, good luck working this out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

thegreatwm said:


> I mentioned that I feel disrespected by this because if she feels that she has the power to take the BJs away from me, she will feel that she can remove anything out of my life that I love. What if she said that we can no longer have a tv in the house because she doesn't like it? Even though that sounds far fetched, I believe it falls under the same guidelines.


I don't think the TV is a good analogy though. If you wanna use TV's in your analogy, you could say we have 3 TV's in the house (aka sexual intercourse, HJ and oral)... She's going to take away one of those TV's now, but you still have the other two to watch  Maybe it was your favorite TV, but can you not adjust to watching the others?

As others have suggested, maybe there are underlying issues with your wife. And if you think you're being an ass by dragging your pregnant wife to sex therapy, think how much of an ass you'll be for stepping outside your marriage. Besides, I for one didn't suggest bringing your wife to therapy, I suggested YOU go to therapy for it, if the therapist feels your wife can benefit, it will be suggested. 

I hope you will keep reading and posting


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

I think you are missing the bigger picture. You are so focused on the oral or the lack there of, that you're not really able see beyond that. So I doubt things will change for you.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

thegreatwm said:


> I really appreciate all the responses here as it has helped me to evaluate myself better as well as my marriage. I don't want to appear as coming off as shallow because despite what some may think, I am not a shallow person. I did not marry my wife just because she gave me bjs. To be honest, they were mediocre but adequate when she tried. The Bjs were one of the perks that came with the package when I chose to marry her. Looking back, it was probably something that she did not like doing in the first place but I was too blind to see this before.
> 
> I never realized how important BJs were to me but when I look at the bigger picture, I don't see this ending well. First of all, I feel disrespected that she will even deny me bjs for an indefinite period. I'm sure everyone here has a favorite sex position/act that they enjoy. How would you like it if your spouse one day said that we are not doing X anymore because I don't like it? Like I mentioned before, I am only 28 and the idea of never getting a BJ for the rest of my life sickens me. I mentioned that I feel disrespected by this because if she feels that she has the power to take the BJs away from me, she will feel that she can remove anything out of my life that I love.
> 
> ...


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## Flower25 (Jan 9, 2012)

thegreatwm said:


> The whole point of dedicating yourself to one person is to try to please them so they won't have to look for alternative places for pleasure....


No disrespect here - but is this really how you view marriage?

The reason you decided to marry your wife is so that she would not have to look elsewhere for pleasure?

And if so - how are you doing?

And something more to think about....you mentioned that if she won't give BJs after one child - how could you expect her to give BJs after more than one child _when there will be even more chores for her to do_?

Why do you assume that all the chores of raising children should be hers?

If you've never been responsible for small children during the day - you have no idea the constant demands they place on a person. Yes - the obvious is that they cannot do anything for themselves, so they need her for all their needs. But beyond that - small children are grabby, clingy, drooly....those babies will be grabbing her boobs, her hair, her face, her hands, her legs....anything they can get their chubby little hands around. AND they will be rubbing their mouths all over her...she will have baby drool on her clothes, in her hair, down her shirt... And this is normal - that is life.

So now she comes to bed to rest - FINALLY a place to be a person and not just a tool for meeting somebody else's needs...

and what happens?

Her man wants to grab her boobs, her hair, her hands, her butt - he wants to run his mouth all over her... but the WORST part?

After an entire day of answering to Me! Me! Me!

She now has to hear ME! ME! ME! You need to do this for ME!

Ugh!


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

thegreatwm said:


> I really appreciate all the responses here as it has helped me to evaluate myself better as well as my marriage. I don't want to appear as coming off as shallow because despite what some may think, I am not a shallow person. I did not marry my wife just because she gave me bjs. To be honest, they were mediocre but adequate when she tried. The Bjs were one of the perks that came with the package when I chose to marry her. Looking back, it was probably something that she did not like doing in the first place but I was too blind to see this before.
> 
> I never realized how important BJs were to me but when I look at the bigger picture, I don't see this ending well. First of all, I feel disrespected that she will even deny me bjs for an indefinite period. I'm sure everyone here has a favorite sex position/act that they enjoy. How would you like it if your spouse one day said that we are not doing X anymore because I don't like it? Like I mentioned before, I am only 28 and the idea of never getting a BJ for the rest of my life sickens me. I mentioned that I feel disrespected by this because if she feels that she has the power to take the BJs away from me, she will feel that she can remove anything out of my life that I love. What if she said that we can no longer have a tv in the house because she doesn't like it? Even though that sounds far fetched, I believe it falls under the same guidelines.
> 
> ...


I don't mean to sound like an a$$, but...You seem to be overlooking the fact that she did not like giving bj's even when you were dating...so why would you think she would want to after taking care of one baby, being pregnant with another? I am assuming that when you were dating and asking for bj's, you were probably being romantic and caring towards her, so she in turn felt the same to do for you...Are you being the same man to her now as you were back then? If not, then try to be that man...she will probably then become that woman again. 

I actually understand your w's POV. I'm not much into oral on either side ( however h absolutely loves both). I will admit I do perform and receive frequently (not as much as he would probably like though) because he likes it, but also it's a give and take situation. Since you like analogies, it's like getting your kid to eat brocoli, they may not want to but if you entice them enough they will eat it.


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## JustaJerk (Dec 2, 2011)

I wonder if this issue would bump-up the divorce rate.


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## Wantsmore (Sep 13, 2011)

Seriously, if I hear one more ****ing person come on here and say you aren't putting in enough effort into your marriage. You need to make her feel this and that. You aren't considering her feelings, you need to make her feel special. I AM ****ING TIRED OF HEARING THAT ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING!!!

You know there are some of us out there that worship the ground our wives walk on. Would walk to the ends of Earth for them, even to the point of dying for them without question. Only to be greeted with hesitation and an inability to properly communicate after years of trying. I had asked my wife for bj's for years, sice before we were married. You know when I actually got my first one from her, that was without me begging and pleading for an hour or more? Last week after I spent 2 days sleeping on the couch because of her inability to give me what I need.

You know why most men give up romancing and doing things for their spouse? Because it never gets reciprocated, ever! You wonder why men have affairs on their wives. It is almost always because they are not getting something at home. Plain and simple. Most decent men would not go outside of marriage without being pushed to do so. I am in that group, but believe me I am so close to doing something I know I will regret. But enough is enough. 

Why is the problem almost always put on the man's shoulders and women seem to get a free ride. I came here hoping to find some answers to issues that might be the problem. Only to have every single response to others that are having the same problems be placed back on me, or the poster. I am sick of it. 

I have tried everyday to open a dialog, do things to entice and tease her and make my intentions known and make her feel special. Only to be greeted 9 out of 10 times with nothing. Nothing at all! Not even a hug and an I love you.

My advice is, for a young man, despite a child on the way. Your best decision may be to leave and find someone more compatible to you and your needs. For some reason the answers here are always the same. IF a woman doesn't want to do that anymore its your fault. If a man won't do something anymore or reveals how he feels about something he is an ******* and kick him to the curb. It would actually be nice if there was some one in here that wasn't an armchair therapist.

I am done my rant for the day.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Wantsmore said:


> Seriously, if I hear one more ****ing person come on here and say you aren't putting in enough effort into your marriage. You need to make her feel this and that. You aren't considering her feelings, you need to make her feel special. I AM ****ING TIRED OF HEARING THAT ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING!!!
> 
> *Really? I see plenty of both sides. You sure you aren't just seeing what you want to see?*
> 
> ...


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Well, Wantsmore, I'm sick of men *****ing about blow jobs. lol. So what. Doesn't mean they'll stop.

Also, for what it's worth, bjs made me ILL when i was pregnant. I don't know if it was the gag reflex of it, but man-o-man, I couldn't do them without vomiting. I'm back to normal now


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## Flower25 (Jan 9, 2012)

that_girl said:


> Also, for what it's worth, bjs made me ILL when i was pregnant. I don't know if it was the gag reflex of it, but man-o-man, I couldn't do them without vomiting. I'm back to normal now


Oh yeah...pregnancy throws EVERYTHING out the window. BJs made you ill and gag...but probably so did brushing your teeth, and eating cottage cheese, and smelling dirty laundry...

Pregnancy and probably the whole first year afterwards is a huge hormonal upheaval. Hard to predict what will be appealing and not from day to day...


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea, I couldn't drink coffee either.  I live on coffee.

So...I dunno. Just my 2c.


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## Wantsmore (Sep 13, 2011)

But that is the point. Really it is. If a man told his wife, I just licked you because I knew you liked it. I on the other hand hate it, always have. I am not doing it anymore. All of a sudden the man is a jerk.

I hate to say it but yes, I have a very high drive and so did she at one point. 3-4 times a day in the past, when we had the time for it. I just cant figure out why some women regress or stop putting in the effort into things they used to.

I mean seriously is it really too much for wife (or husband for that matter) to reciprocate to the other? I do things for her I hate doing but guess what, I do it anyway. 

A few weeks ago I took oral off the table for her and you should have seen the reaction. Yeah, imagine my surprise when she told me she loves when I do that. I have been waiting to hear that for 15 years! Do you think a weekly or hell a really good monthly **** sucking is out of the question?

Seriously there are other issues at play and it is more then likely not from the husband. IF what he is saying is true about what he does for her.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

Wantsmore said:


> I just cant figure out why some women regress or stop putting in the effort into things they used to.


Has your wife stopped doing some things for you sexually? If so, what has she said her reasons are when you have talked to her about how you feel?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

If he is throwing fits and withholding other sexual acts/intimacy from her, then why would she want to do it for him?

If he's keeping on with life as normal, I could see it being a better environment for suckin' deck.


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## Wantsmore (Sep 13, 2011)

I am always the initiator. She has not come asking for sex since we first got married. Maybe for the first 6 months or so. Fine I get it. But it was kind of nice to be jumped as soon as I walked in the door and be told I have been thinking about you all day. We didn't have kids for the first 4 years we were married, she would still do the things a wife should do for her husband in that time. After our kids came it seemed to all change.

Sexually she has never been the adventurous type. I have been the one to introduce new things. But that the new things to try ended years ago. Tried the toys, different positions, locations, sexy under wear, no under wear, XXX movies, racy novels, what ever I have tried it. Lately i have been sexting her and all I get is "grow up", you are too old for that. WTF! I sent her a sex charged email last week and that fell flat and backfired too.

The other night she tells me I am tired of everyone wanting a piece of me. The kids are always needing me, you want me, ect. Welcome to life! If you can't make time for your loved ones what else have to got? I have told her a long time ago to make time for herself, go out and do things by your self, or go out with a girlfriend. It never happens.

She really has let things go for herself. She doesn't go our of her way to do her hair, put make up on (never has really, doesn't need it), buy nice things for herself. Whatever, she stopped making an effort. 

The last ditch effort I am trying is an "invitation" every week to try new things. Everything from talking about our fantasies to trying sex in a public place. All spread out through out the year. IN an attempt to awaken something she lost and I can't seem to help her find.

We tried to talk about fantasies and what we want to try and you know what I got? Nothing, I don't have fantasies, I don't think about such things, why do you always think about sex, I don't get all worked up like I used to. Until I gave up on it and rolled over and had a ****ty sleep. 

I have been telling her for years she is sexy, i think she is hot, I love her, I need her, I touch, caress non-sexually, hold hands, hug her for no reason the list goes on. I told her I miss her doing these things and that was the reaction I got. Everyone wants a piece and I can't do it anymore. So I told her I don't know how much longer I can hold on and stay in a marriage that is like that. It is very frustrating to say the least.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Obviously women and some of the men here just dont get it. I am in a similar situation and I feel the same as OP. It's completely unfair to bait and switch on an issue as fundamental as BJ's. YES fundamental. 

To a man BJ's are THE thing. If you state from jump you won't do them fine. If you give them out like candy before the ring and then change once you get married a man will absolutely feel duped and want to have his needs satisfied. Either by her or somebody else.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Wantsmore said:


> Seriously, if I hear one more ****ing person come on here and say you aren't putting in enough effort into your marriage. You need to make her feel this and that. You aren't considering her feelings, you need to make her feel special. I AM ****ING TIRED OF HEARING THAT ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING!!!
> 
> You know there are some of us out there that worship the ground our wives walk on. Would walk to the ends of Earth for them, even to the point of dying for them without question. Only to be greeted with hesitation and an inability to properly communicate after years of trying. I had asked my wife for bj's for years, sice before we were married. You know when I actually got my first one from her, that was without me begging and pleading for an hour or more? Last week after I spent 2 days sleeping on the couch because of her inability to give me what I need.
> 
> ...


:iagree:


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Wantsmore said:


> I hate to say it but yes, I have a very high drive and so did she at one point. 3-4 times a day in the past, *when we had the time for it.* I just cant figure out why some women regress or stop putting in the effort into things they used to.
> 
> I mean seriously is it really too much for wife (or husband for that matter) to reciprocate to the other? I do things for her I hate doing but guess what, I do it anyway.
> 
> ...


You just answered your own question.... You say you and your W had sex like rabbits back in the day, but you lead that statement with "when we had time"... Apparently y'all don't have time to do it like that anymore. 

And why did it take 15 years for you to hear she loves when you perform oral? In 15 years, you never thought to have a chit chat with her about that? My H asks me sometimes, shortly after even, if I enjoyed that, and vice versa, I'll ask him  

And when it comes to advice on here and anywhere for that matter, it is often suggested to look at what you are doing first... Often times, one has to look at themselves and their approach to things. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I came here complaining about my H always wanting sex years ago... I wanted advice on how to shut him up... Wow, was I surprised. Almost everyone who gave me advice told me to look at ME first... That's a concept I never even thought about. I soon discovered I was wrong in my approach, I was wrong in my communication with my H, I was wrong in expecting he be okay with my not wanting to have sex, etc... So like uphill suggested, the advice here actually goes both ways


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

She sounds burnt out. It happens. 

What has her reaction been when you told her you didn't know how much longer you could hold onto a marriage like that?


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

sinnister said:


> It's completely unfair to bait and switch on an issue as fundamental as BJ's. YES fundamental.


I'm not sure it was exactly bait and switch though. Someone told the OP it sounded like she was not into BJ's to begin with since she never did them first without him asking. The OP came back and said he knew this and married her anyway.


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## thegreatwm (Aug 14, 2011)

Wantsmore said:


> Seriously, if I hear one more ****ing person come on here and say you aren't putting in enough effort into your marriage. You need to make her feel this and that. You aren't considering her feelings, you need to make her feel special. I AM ****ING TIRED OF HEARING THAT ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING!!!
> 
> You know there are some of us out there that worship the ground our wives walk on. Would walk to the ends of Earth for them, even to the point of dying for them without question. Only to be greeted with hesitation and an inability to properly communicate after years of trying. I had asked my wife for bj's for years, sice before we were married. You know when I actually got my first one from her, that was without me begging and pleading for an hour or more? Last week after I spent 2 days sleeping on the couch because of her inability to give me what I need.
> 
> ...


I'm glad to see that I am not the only person dealing with this BJ issue. However, I have not been around this forum long enough to know that the typical response is that the man is/isn't doing something and that is why the woman regressed. It is good that she finally gave in and hopefully it continues for you. I know the BJ issue is small for some but it's not like I'm asking for blood diamonds from her. I am proud to say that I have never cheated on her and while I'm not perfect, I consider that I am good to her. I don't believe in stepping out of a marriage if all the needs are being met at home but of course, that is not the case right now A typical conversation on our issue usually does like this:

Me: Hey Baby, can you give me a BJ today?

Her: No.

Me: But why? You know that I am clean and that it isn't going to hurt either of us.

Her: Well I think that it is nasty and I don't want to do it at all forever. I just don't like doing it so don't push me and don't ask me anymore about it.

Me: Ok

As you can see, the conversations are usually one sided and I can't really get to the root of the issue in her mind. I think I'm too nice to sleep in another room especially since she is pregnant but I think I may just start denying her oral. She really enjoys it and it's something that she looks forward to. Maybe if I cut off her supply, she will start to see things from my perspective.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

thegreatwm said:


> Me: Hey Baby, can you give me a BJ today?


Well damn, maybe its your presentation! :rofl:

I wouldn't do that either if I were asked like that.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Wantsmore said:


> After our kids came it seemed to all change.


Did it change after the first kid? :scratchhead:


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Wantsmore said:


> But that is the point. Really it is. If a man told his wife, I just licked you because I knew you liked it. I on the other hand hate it, always have. I am not doing it anymore. All of a sudden the man is a jerk.
> 
> *Once agian, please site examples of this.*
> 
> ...


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## Kevinb (Jan 8, 2012)

thegreatwm said:


> Thanks for the input guys. I really do love my family but when I think about this issue, it really makes me upset. When I look back in the past, I don't think she was the type to go around blowing guys and she only did it to me when I asked. If this was not in her character, she should have been up front with me before we got married. I have always practiced good hygiene and I have not gained any substantial weight since we got married. I agree with the people that said that she feels that since I have been with her for this long, the lack of bjs will not bother me.
> 
> On the other hand, does she seriously expect me to stay with her and be happy if she cuts me off like this? I'm sure most women on this board knows what their husbands like and dislike sexually. If you decide to cut him off one day because it makes you feel better, do you really expect him to not cheat/leave you because of this?
> 
> I will try my best to sit down and talk to her about this to see why she has stopped. Only she knows the truth and whether or not she only did it in the beginning because she wanted to keep me. It's so hard to discuss it with her because she always gets defensive and upset when I ask now. It does sound kind of shallow to leave her due to lack of bjs but her neglect can also mean that she has gotten too comfortable in our relationship and that she will start to neglect other things in our future.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kevinb (Jan 8, 2012)

Kevinb said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Man, you just come across as some ******* hillbilly. For goodness sake are you seriously leaving a woman you love and your two kids coz you love getting blown soooooo much. You sound like 28 going on 15. Most/all guys like bj's but some have a deeper love for our spouses and family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wantsmore (Sep 13, 2011)

Cherry said:


> You just answered your own question.... You say you and your W had sex like rabbits back in the day, but you lead that statement with "when we had time"... Apparently y'all don't have time to do it like that anymore.
> 
> And why did it take 15 years for you to hear she loves when you perform oral? In 15 years, you never thought to have a chit chat with her about that? My H asks me sometimes, shortly after even, if I enjoyed that, and vice versa, I'll ask him


Umm yeah, been there done that. Do you not think I would have brought up sex and what you like in 15 years of marriage? Yeah I just thought about asking the other day.

What I meant by had the time was we made time. A quick one here, a quick one there, and at bed time a marathon of sweat and ecstasy. She just recently told me she loves getting her ***** licked until she can't take it. After asking her I don't know how many times in the last 21 years of being together.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

thegreatwm said:


> I don't believe in stepping out of a marriage if all the needs are being met at home but of course, that is not the case right now A typical conversation on our issue usually does like this:
> 
> Me: Hey Baby, can you give me a BJ today?
> 
> ...


Your approach is pretty open and shut though. Can you bring it up at a better time? Say when the two of you are getting ready to do something sexual? Is that a conversation you just bring up in the middle of nowhere? And your reason's for wanting it are a little lame... Why not suggest you want her to do it because you love how her mouth feels on you and it's a feeling you miss, make it about her and how SHE makes you feel when it's happening. But of course, now is probably not a good time to bring it up, she's likely to come up with other excuses if she is just not wanting to do it. It is not fair what she is doing, I will give you that, but your approach doesn't seem fair either.


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## thegreatwm (Aug 14, 2011)

Cherry said:


> Your approach is pretty open and shut though. Can you bring it up at a better time? Say when the two of you are getting ready to do something sexual? Is that a conversation you just bring up in the middle of nowhere? And your reason's for wanting it are a little lame... Why not suggest you want her to do it because you love how her mouth feels on you and it's a feeling you miss, make it about her and how SHE makes you feel when it's happening. But of course, now is probably not a good time to bring it up, she's likely to come up with other excuses if she is just not wanting to do it. It is not fair what she is doing, I will give you that, but your approach doesn't seem fair either.


Thanks for the advice. I usually try to bring it up during sexual situations but I stopped because her attitude on the issue really kills the mood. We could be kissing and really intimate one minute and the next minute, she is scolding me for asking her for one. I guess I can work on my approach as well as my timing. Like I mentioned before, I will put the issue aside while she is pregnant and take advantage of this time to work on my own issues. Hopefully by then, she will have a change of heart.


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## Template (Aug 2, 2011)

thegreatwm said:


> I really appreciate all the responses here as it has helped me to evaluate myself better as well as my marriage. I don't want to appear as coming off as shallow because despite what some may think, I am not a shallow person. I did not marry my wife just because she gave me bjs. To be honest, they were mediocre but adequate when she tried. The Bjs were one of the perks that came with the package when I chose to marry her. Looking back, it was probably something that she did not like doing in the first place but I was too blind to see this before.
> 
> I never realized how important BJs were to me but when I look at the bigger picture, I don't see this ending well. First of all, I feel disrespected that she will even deny me bjs for an indefinite period. I'm sure everyone here has a favorite sex position/act that they enjoy. How would you like it if your spouse one day said that we are not doing X anymore because I don't like it? Like I mentioned before, I am only 28 and the idea of never getting a BJ for the rest of my life sickens me. I mentioned that I feel disrespected by this because if she feels that she has the power to take the BJs away from me, she will feel that she can remove anything out of my life that I love. What if she said that we can no longer have a tv in the house because she doesn't like it? Even though that sounds far fetched, I believe it falls under the same guidelines.
> 
> ...


 
So, if I am understanding you correctly, you married your wife for a disease free, unlimited supply of sex and yours and her sexual relationship is premised on the concept if either of you does not meet the sexual demands of the other, the non compliant partner needs to fear the other will stray, almost as non compliance is a justifiable reason for the "wronged" partner to stray or leave. 

Perhaps she did not know BJs were a deal breaker for you when she married you. I kind of suspect you didn't know it either at the time.

I have read your posts in this thread. It sounds as though you are in the throes of an affair. You talk about BJs like other men talk about their lovers. You are in a fog, infatuation driven thought process. Everything relates back to BJs or lack of them.

You are married to a pretty decent woman who has given you a child and is about to give you another. You tend to get along well with the exception of BJs. Are you sincerely ready to toss her aside over this one sex act? Go put your hand on her belly and feel that baby kick. That is life you created with her. Go look in the face of your sleeping child, the child who loves its' mother and father and needs both of them. Look around at the home you and your wife have built together. You would hurt these precious people and destroy your family over a single sex act? Be grateful for what you already have. Get some counseling to help you deal with the BJ infatuation and when the new baby is sleeping through the night, get some marriage counseling to help you and she sort it out.


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## anotherguy (Dec 14, 2011)

thegreatwm said:


> ...I feel duped on the whole thing. The only option I think I have is to either leave her or either find someone on the side to satisfy me. She is a good woman and mother but I feel that she doesn't love me if she can't give me a bj. She knows that I am clean so there is no excuse for her not to satisfy me.


Oh please. 'duped'? 'no excuse', 'she doesnt love me'? really? is that how you think?

I am surprised at the quantity of threads on BJs or lack thereof - and how needy and broken some of accompanying male 'logic' is. If the end of your relationship sits on the edge of a BJ, you have bigger problems. Much bigger.

Yikes.


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## JustaJerk (Dec 2, 2011)

> Seriously, if I hear one more ****ing person come on here and say you aren't putting in enough effort into your marriage. You need to make her feel this and that. You aren't considering her feelings, you need to make her feel special. I AM ****ING TIRED OF HEARING THAT ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING!!!
> 
> You know there are some of us out there that worship the ground our wives walk on. Would walk to the ends of Earth for them, even to the point of dying for them without question. Only to be greeted with hesitation and an inability to properly communicate after years of trying. I had asked my wife for bj's for years, sice before we were married. You know when I actually got my first one from her, that was without me begging and pleading for an hour or more? Last week after I spent 2 days sleeping on the couch because of her inability to give me what I need.
> 
> ...


No more Sanka for Mr. Fargas... DAMN!


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Really? Really? You place your desire to get blown ahead of the mental, emotional, social and financial well being of your children?
> I'm not sure I could come up with many things less manly than that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I stopped allowing others to define "manhood" for me years ago when I realized most have no clue what a man actually is.
Even most men.

I also want to point out yet again I get very tired of people responding negatively to what they believe is my post while ignoring important content within that same post.

No where did I even imply..

" You place your desire to get blown ahead of the mental, emotional, social and financial well being of your children?"

Please…show me where I did.

If you cannot (and you cannot) please read for content in the future.



Catherine602 said:


> You should have apps for that so you can just plug it in:
> DIVORCE HER
> BAIT & SWITCH
> That's your answer to every problem. If every man took your advice the divorce rate would be 99%.


You seem drawn to my posts Catherine.
I`m flattered.


However I believe this is the very first time I`ve ever even typed the words "bait & switch" in this forum.
While it is true I often advise to begin divorce proceedings first thing in many of most posts the vast majority of those posts (if not all) are in the CWI forum and always to a BS who is so distraught they haven`t a clue what to do once they`ve discovered their spouse is cheating.

I also advise that beginning divorce proceedings immediately is a good strong response to an unremorseful cheating spouse regardless if the BS wishes to divorce or reconcile.

It cannot be denied the move allows the BS to immediately take back a large portion of their lost power.
This stronger position can be used by the BS to guide their reconciliation along lines acceptable to them.
If it does lead to divorce it`s still a win situation because the BS can then get on with their life that much quicker.



> There could be other reasons why this has happened and exploring them may actually help this man with his frusatrations.


Wow, I actually stated essentially that in the post you quoted.




tacoma said:


> .......
> I would indeed try all I could to remedy the situation but ultimately I wouldn`t have married a woman who was sexually incompatible with me so I see no reason to remain with one who becomes sexually incompatible with me after marriage.



To the OP..

I find it sooo frustrating considering the plethora of threads here on this very topic that the vast majority of regulars here continue to believe that having a sex act as a hard boundary is selfish simply because it`s a sex act.

What about a kiss?

If your spouse refused to kiss you ever would that be acceptable?
What about an embrace?
If your spouse refused to ever again comfort you with strong arms and a warm close body would that be acceptable?

What about sex itself?

There`s little difference between these things and any sex act as far as establishing intimacy goes for me.

Here`s my deal about the blow job topic.

Every serious relationship I`ve ever had involved oral sex just as they all involved kissing and embracing and intimacy in general.
I see it as part of my sexuallity and would immediately cross any GF off my "potential" list if oral sex wasn`t on the table.
Therefore I specifically, intentionally, married a woman who I knew beyond any shadow of a doubt was sexually compatible with me.
In fact the very first sex act my wife and I ever engaged in was the blow job.
It happened about 15 minutes after our first kiss.

If my wife, out of the blue, was repulsed by the idea of performing oral sex on me it would drive a wedge into our intimacy immediately, which would eventually lead to resentment, no sex, no intimacy at all and therefore…no marriage.

The beauty of a blow job to me is her desire for me.
There is no more intimate thing a person can engage in than taking their lovers sex into their mouth.
It`s akin to communion for me, the symbolism alone screams desire.

The thing I fear most in my marriage is the loss of desire because when you get right down to it that`s what it`s all about and without it you`ve got nothing.

So yes as I said before "I would indeed try all I could to remedy the situation" eventually divorce is where it would lead.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

JustaJerk said:


> No more Sanka for Mr. Fargas... DAMN!


Oh man, I love that movie!....:rofl:
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Wantsmore said:


> Seriously, if I hear one more ****ing person come on here and say you aren't putting in enough effort into your marriage. You need to make her feel this and that. You aren't considering her feelings, you need to make her feel special. I AM ****ING TIRED OF HEARING THAT ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING!!!
> 
> You know there are some of us out there that worship the ground our wives walk on. Would walk to the ends of Earth for them, even to the point of dying for them without question. Only to be greeted with hesitation and an inability to properly communicate after years of trying. I had asked my wife for bj's for years, sice before we were married. You know when I actually got my first one from her, that was without me begging and pleading for an hour or more? Last week after I spent 2 days sleeping on the couch because of her inability to give me what I need.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

I see this trend here as well.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Whatsmore your view of relationships is that a man, by making the ultimate sacrifice to marry is entitled to be worshipped for his act. BS to that. 

If that were the case, a husband has the option of meeting his wife's needs if he is so inclined but he has already done enough so it is not required. She however, must show her obligation by cookinfpg eeeffing and being quiet. Good luck with that. 

Maybe women feel they are as valuable in the relationship as their husband and make as much of a sacrifice? 

Moreover, women are cheating at nearly same rate as men. They also initiate 75% of divorces. How do these two factors fit into your view? This- 

"You know why most women give up bj and doing things for their spouse? Because it never gets reciprocated, ever! You wonder why women have affairs on their husbands. It is almost always because they are not getting something at home. Plain and simple. Most decent women would not go outside of marriage without being pushed to do so." 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rainbow_Dazed (Sep 28, 2011)

Wantsmore said:


> Seriously, if I hear one more ****ing person come on here and say you aren't putting in enough effort into your marriage. You need to make her feel this and that. You aren't considering her feelings, you need to make her feel special. I AM ****ING TIRED OF HEARING THAT ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING!!!
> 
> You know there are some of us out there that worship the ground our wives walk on. Would walk to the ends of Earth for them, even to the point of dying for them without question. Only to be greeted with hesitation and an inability to properly communicate after years of trying. I had asked my wife for bj's for years, sice before we were married. You know when I actually got my first one from her, that was without me begging and pleading for an hour or more? Last week after I spent 2 days sleeping on the couch because of her inability to give me what I need.
> 
> ...


That was a good rant, thanks! 

I do disagree with you on some extent. I think by denying your part in how things have turned out, you are setting yourself up to be blind to your own failures. 

This example is from my personal experiences: In 2008 the first wave of depression hit the country I live in. I graduated that year and needed to start working on my career. There were no jobs in the city we lived in so I pushed for us to move to another city in which we both could eventually find work (in here it is the norm for both parents to work fulltime). My partner was hesitant but agreed to move. And so we did when our son was one year old. What I did not know or see at the time was that she was depressed (which started most likely after childbirth). I pushed for us to move to a new city where she had very little support or friends, and she was left home with a one year old child. The first year here was really rough on her, as it was for me too. I was too focused on work, and unable to hear her and hear how alone and tired she was. It took me a long time to hear her, and to realize what a mistake we had done. 

Career-wise it was the right choice, but if we had known what we know now, we would not have done it. I failed her and I failed us by not seeing the situation as clearly as I should've seen, and it hurts deeply. She does not blame me or resent me for what happened, and to be fair, she has her part in it too. She was unable to recognize just how tired she was and unable to communicate to me what she needed at the time. But she didn't fail alone, we failed together and because of that went through a few years that were much rougher than they could've been if had stayed at our hometown and she had gotten help sooner. Things are getting better now. Our child is a bit older and daily routines much easier. My partner has a great job and she has made new friends here. And she started medication last fall and is already feeling better. Our future is still open, but atleast things are moving to a better direction.

What I'm trying to say is that I believe is that when a relationship fails, usually both parties involved have failed to some extent. If we are thinking that we are doing everything right and are still having a relationship-dynamic that is dysfunctional, we are most likely blind to our own contribution on the failure, in my opinion.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> Well damn, maybe its your presentation! :rofl:
> 
> I wouldn't do that either if I were asked like that.


I hate this response. I always have hated this response. Can I get a show of hands of people who started out with this type of presentation? Now can I get a show of hands from the people who started this type of presentation after the 50th or 100th time you where rejected in the same year? 
People don't act like this to start off. It becomes a reaction after many many rejections while comming correctly at your wife. Most men begin to ask after they waste their time trying to get their wife in the mood and just ending up with blue balls over and over and over agian. This just becomes a way to make it easier to take.
I have been the LD spouse and now the HD spouse. I think anybody on here who has never been the HD spouse has NO ****ING CLUE how frustrating it is. If you think someone bothering you for sex is bad, try this. Go to work all day long, come home and help around the house, do everything that is asked of you, then do all this so the one person who is supposed to love you can make you fell unloved and unwanted. It is one of the ****test feelings you can feel. 
I kind of look at it this way, a man comes home from work tired as hell and just wanting to take a shower, eat and go to bed. When he gets through the door his dog comes up and begins to jump around his master all excited because he thinks his master is going to go play fetch or whatever game he used to play when the dog first came along. Then said master begins to kick the damn dog every day when he comes home. Anybody want to tell me that the dog is not going to change the way he acts?


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

uphillbattle said:


> I hate this response. I always have hated this response. Can I get a show of hands of people who started out with this type of presentation? Now can I get a show of hands from the people who started this type of presentation after the 50th or 100th time you where rejected in the same year?
> People don't act like this to start off. It becomes a reaction after many many rejections while comming correctly at your wife. Most men begin to ask after they waste their time trying to get their wife in the mood and just ending up with blue balls over and over and over agian. This just becomes a way to make it easier to take.
> I have been the LD spouse and now the HD spouse. I think anybody on here who has never been the HD spouse has NO ****ING CLUE how frustrating it is. If you think someone bothering you for sex is bad, try this. Go to work all day long, come home and help around the house, do everything that is asked of you, then do all this so the one person who is supposed to love you can make you fell unloved and unwanted. It is one of the ****test feelings you can feel.
> I kind of look at it this way, a man comes home from work tired as hell and just wanting to take a shower, eat and go to bed. When he gets through the door his dog comes up and begins to jump around his master all excited because he thinks his master is going to go play fetch or whatever game he used to play when the dog first came along. Then said master begins to kick the damn dog every day when he comes home. Anybody want to tell me that the dog is not going to change the way he acts?


Sorry you did not like the response, and that you took it personal, since it wasn't even about you. Try and have a good day and not let this worry you.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> Sorry you did not like the response, and that you took it personal, since it wasn't even about you. Try and have a good day and not let this worry you.


It really doesn't worry me. I don't ask my wife for sex and don't think somebody should. The only problem I have with it is the statemen is an ignorant one and is made on these boards way to often.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

uphillbattle said:


> It really doesn't worry me. I don't ask my wife for sex and don't think somebody should. The only problem I have with it is the statemen is an ignorant one.


Good for you. I responded based on the fact he put up A conversation. Not how the conversation used to be or might have been and then turned differently due to rejection over the years. I do not know if thats how he asks his wife for BJ's or not ALL the time or if it was just that way this one time. Anyway, have a good day.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> Good for you. I responded based on the fact he put up A conversation. Not how the conversation used to be or might have been and then turned differently due to rejection over the years. I do not know if thats how he asks his wife for BJ's or not ALL the time or if it was just that way this one time. Anyway, have a good day.


I will, thank you :smthumbup:


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## Flower25 (Jan 9, 2012)

Rainbow_Dazed said:


> What I'm trying to say is that I believe is that when a relationship fails, usually both parties involved have failed to some extent. If we are thinking that we are doing everything right and are still having a relationship-dynamic that is dysfunctional, we are most likely blind to our own contribution on the failure, in my opinion.


Exactly!

Looking to assign "fault" or "blame" assumes that there is a "Right" and a "Wrong" to a relationship.

In my opinion, the OP needs to really put himself in his wife's stretched-tight-from-pregnancy-swollen-feet shoes and ask himself whether he really is giving her the kind of pleasure she needs right now. I'd bet anything that sex and BJs are at the bottom of her list at this time...

So far - I have not seen one poster write that pregnancy had no effect on their own sex life...and that the OP should not expect any changes either.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

thegreatwm said:


> Thanks for the advice. I usually try to bring it up during sexual situations but I stopped because her attitude on the issue really kills the mood. We could be kissing and really intimate one minute and the next minute, she is scolding me for asking her for one. I guess I can work on my approach as well as my timing. Like I mentioned before, I will put the issue aside while she is pregnant and take advantage of this time to work on my own issues. Hopefully by then, she will have a change of heart.


Good for you. :smthumbup:

I really think that it sounds like there are some underlying issues going on here that need to be worked on, and I am proud of you that you are willing to take some time and own up to and work on your own issues. Hopefully, if your wife sees positive changes in you, it will have a positive influence on her.

Best wishes.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Flower25 said:


> Why do you assume that all the chores of raising children should be hers?


You're barking up the wrong tree. The OP wrote that he helps with chores.



Flower25 said:


> If you've never been responsible for small children during the day - you have no idea the constant demands they place on a person.


I've worked an office job and I've done the Mr. Mom deal. I actually kept my oldest child in my office for a year. Assuming you have healthy kids, kids are easier than working, hands down.



Flower25 said:


> So now she comes to bed to rest - FINALLY a place to be a person and not just a tool for meeting somebody else's needs...
> 
> and what happens?
> 
> ...


As you said, that's life. Husbands like to have sex with their wives. There's nothing wrong with that. A woman who views sex with her husband as a chore to be avoided has a faulty view of sex.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I don't know about you, but when I'm home with the kids, I'm also working on the house. I don't just sit with my kids. LOL

But I'd rather be home than at work...

Many women view sex as a chore because their husbands make it seem like a chore.

If my husband came to me, whining about sex or demanding sex or he'd leave me...., ew! What a turn off.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

PHTlump said:


> I've worked an office job and I've done the Mr. Mom deal. I actually kept my oldest child in my office for a year. Assuming you have healthy kids, kids are easier than working, hands down.


LOL... Okay. After an extended break, a part of me can't wait to get back to work just to relax  Let's see... Playing referee to fighting kids, changing diapers, playing the food game, getting them down for nap, scrubbing crayon off the wall or food smeared into the couch, trying to decipher what that tantrum is about now, not being able to carry on any kind of adult conversation with the hollaring babies in the background, not being able to hear yourself think... It is a ton more work than my actual desk job I can guarantee that!!!!! PLUS, there is no way in hell I could actually type all this in the few short minutes I have if I were at home with my kids 

Cheers!


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

Cherry said:


> LOL... Okay. After an extended break, a part of me can't wait to get back to work just to relax  Let's see... Playing referee to fighting kids, changing diapers, playing the food game, getting them down for nap, scrubbing crayon off the wall or food smeared into the couch, trying to decipher what that tantrum is about now, not being able to carry on any kind of adult conversation with the hollaring babies in the background, not being able to hear yourself think... It is a ton more work than my actual desk job I can guarantee that!!!!! PLUS, there is no way in hell I could actually type all this in the few short minutes I have if I were at home with my kids
> 
> Cheers!


My twins had this thing with their crap. I can't tell you how many times I had to clean their cribs up with bleach water to disinfect it from poop. Those days, I would just go into my room and sob lol. I love my kids, but I am so glad they are in school full time and I can get myself back into school then get a job. Cannot wait


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

ScaredandUnsure said:


> My twins had this thing with their crap. I can't tell you how many times I had to clean their cribs up with bleach water to disinfect it from poop. Those days, I would just go into my room and sob lol. I love my kids, but I am so glad they are in school full time and I can get myself back into school then get a job. Cannot wait


 I admire all women and men who can safely and successfully manage their twins from ages 0 to 4 - lol (and of course I admire all women and men who have raised children period!)... They are getting easier as they grow though, for a while there I wondered what the heck have we gotten ourselves into and does it ever get any easier... I might PM you for some advice! 

To the OP, sorry for the hijack


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## Flower25 (Jan 9, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> You're barking up the wrong tree. The OP wrote that he helps with chores.
> 
> 
> I've worked an office job and I've done the Mr. Mom deal. I actually kept my oldest child in my office for a year. Assuming you have healthy kids, kids are easier than working, hands down.
> ...



This is what happens when you quote out of context...

The point of my entry was supposed to illustrate that a new mother can feel extremely man-handled and groped and drooled over by the end of a day spent caring for toddlers and infants. 

I wanted the OP to consider that perhaps his wife with feeling physically overwhelmed...and being met in the bedroom with even more manhandling and groping was not appealing to her right now.

I wanted him to consider how his approach may be perceived.


The fact that you enjoyed taking your kids to work with you has very little to do with the sheer exhaustion of being pregnant and/or being a new Mom.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Flower25 said:


> The point of my entry was supposed to illustrate that a new mother can feel extremely man-handled and groped and drooled over by the end of a day spent caring for toddlers and infants.
> 
> I wanted the OP to consider that perhaps his wife with feeling physically overwhelmed...and being met in the bedroom with even more manhandling and groping was not appealing to her right now.
> 
> I wanted him to consider how his approach may be perceived.


The OP's approach may well be flawed. However, my point is that women should not deprioritize sex just because new priorities have emerged. Husbands are going to want sex with their wives whether they have children or not. And that's OK.



Flower25 said:


> The fact that you enjoyed taking your kids to work with you has very little to do with the sheer exhaustion of being pregnant and/or being a new Mom.


Really? I will grant you that I don't know the physical sensations of being pregnant. However, I do know what it's like to be a new parent. And it is tiring. But it's not so exhausting that neglecting one's spouse becomes excusable.

Frankly, my white collar office job is more tiring than keeping my child was. And if you want to talk about a blue collar job involving manual labor, that would be doubly true. So I think we just need some perspective. Raising children isn't a breeze, but it's not a Herculean task that will preclude sex from happening.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

CallaLily said:


> I'm not sure it was exactly bait and switch though. Someone told the OP it sounded like she was not into BJ's to begin with since she never did them first without him asking. The OP came back and said he knew this and married her anyway.


The OP said that he believed, with the benefit of hindsight, that she didn't like BJs. If a woman lies about her sexual preferences, we shouldn't blame the man for not knowing that she's lying.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

> The point of my entry was supposed to illustrate that a new mother can feel extremely man-handled and groped and drooled over by the end of a day spent caring for toddlers and infants.
> 
> I wanted the OP to consider that perhaps his wife with feeling physically overwhelmed...and being met in the bedroom with even more manhandling and groping was not appealing to her right now.


I can attest to this.. my wife has explained this to me, almost word for word on a number of occasions. I can't begrudge her for feeling this way any more than she should begrudge me for wanting/needing sex. It's just the way it is, and we have to work around it, which we do with varying degrees of success. Usually, if she is in the mood, she'll ask if I can wait 5-10 minutes so she can relax for a little while. We'll chat, unwind, or whatever before we commence foreplay. This is just fine with me!


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## Flower25 (Jan 9, 2012)

nader said:


> I can attest to this.. my wife has explained this to me, almost word for word on a number of occasions. I can't begrudge her for feeling this way any more than she should begrudge me for wanting/needing sex. It's just the way it is, and we have to work around it, which we do with varying degrees of success. Usually, if she is in the mood, she'll ask if I can wait 5-10 minutes so she can relax for a little while. We'll chat, unwind, or whatever before we commence foreplay. This is just fine with me!


Thank you, Nader!

And it sounds like you are the kind of man who treats his wife to a little TLC at those times...which can go a long way toward helping her feel like the sexy woman she is...

As opposed to arguing with her that raising babies is not that hard and men have NEEDS.

(Again - not saying that anyone is right or wrong....just that some approaches are more successful than others.)


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## Flower25 (Jan 9, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> The OP's approach may well be flawed. However, my point is that women should not deprioritize sex just because new priorities have emerged. Husbands are going to want sex with their wives whether they have children or not. And that's OK.
> 
> Really? I will grant you that I don't know the physical sensations of being pregnant. However, I do know what it's like to be a new parent. And it is tiring. But it's not so exhausting that neglecting one's spouse becomes excusable.
> 
> .... So I think we just need some perspective. Raising children isn't a breeze, but it's not a Herculean task that will preclude sex from happening.


I agree!

But let's also agree that a man who acts like a "hero" during pregnancy and those first few months (ya know - takes on some of those tough tasks, pampers his wife a bit, lets her know how beautiful she is even though she has spit-up in her hair), is a LOT sexier to his wife than a man who pouts and whines that he is not getting enough attention now that the baby is coming/here.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

It's all in the approach.

If a woman feels her man only wants her for sex, then it will be difficult to get into the mood.

If she feels used, or that he only is nice to her when he's in the mood, only touches her when he wants sex, etc, then she'll grow to resent that.

Just as I don't treat my husband like a piece of meat (although he's sooo yummy  ) We actually hang out and talk and flirt after work and touch each other without expectations of sex...but I don't treat him like the handyman (even though he's handy). He doesn't treat me like his wh0re (even though I'm dirrrrty  ).


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## thegreatwm (Aug 14, 2011)

I might add that even though she is pregnant, the bjs stopped maybe a couple months before she got pregnant. I know that she works everyday and I know that she is tired when she gets home. We used to split the chores around the house but I am now doing most of them since she is pregnant. All I'm asking for is a simple 5 minute Bj once a week. I'm not asking her to mow the lawn or paint our bedroom. All I'm asking for is a simple half-hearted Bj. Being pregnant is something that I will never experience but I don't think that it's so bad that she can't give me a simple bj. I'm sorry but no matter what anyone says, I'm not convinced that I'm being selfish. I am asking for a simple sex act that will take less than 1% of her day to complete. 

It is also not fair to compare me to taking care of a child. A child requires constant supervision, diaper changing, and nourishing. Yes it is draining but it will not kill anyone either. My wife should be happy that the only thing she needs to do to shutup her cry baby husband for the day is to give him a BJ!

I guess my ulterior motive for making this thread was to see how I can get her to give me bjs so I won't have to step outside our marriage. Like I mentioned before, I feel that if I am getting everything I need at home, then there is no incentive for me to step outside our marriage. I feel that it's a catch 22 at this point. If I'm nagging my wife for BJs, I'm considered to be selfish, immature, and inconsiderate of her feelings. If I cheat on her by getting blown by the neighbor next door, I'm also considered to be selfish, immature, and inconsiderate. So it's liked I'm damned either way.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Wow. BJs sound so romantic and emotional for you 

"I am asking for a simple sex act that will take less than 1% of her day to complete."

Ew.

No offense, but I really think it's your approach. 

Bjs in this house last about 15-20 minutes.  5 minutes seems quick. 

This whole thread is creeping me out though. You focus WAAYYYY too much on this. Geebus.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

thegreatwm said:


> I might add that even though she is pregnant, the bjs stopped maybe a couple months before she got pregnant. I know that she works everyday and I know that she is tired when she gets home. We used to split the chores around the house but I am now doing most of them since she is pregnant. All I'm asking for is a simple 5 minute Bj once a week. I'm not asking her to mow the lawn or paint our bedroom. All I'm asking for is a simple half-hearted Bj. Being pregnant is something that I will never experience but I don't think that it's so bad that she can't give me a simple bj. I'm sorry but no matter what anyone says, I'm not convinced that I'm being selfish. I am asking for a simple sex act that will take less than 1% of her day to complete.
> 
> It is also not fair to compare me to taking care of a child. A child requires constant supervision, diaper changing, and nourishing. Yes it is draining but it will not kill anyone either. My wife should be happy that the only thing she needs to do to shutup her cry baby husband for the day is to give him a BJ!
> 
> I guess my ulterior motive for making this thread was to see how I can get her to give me bjs so I won't have to step outside our marriage. Like I mentioned before, I feel that if I am getting everything I need at home, then there is no incentive for me to step outside our marriage. I feel that it's a catch 22 at this point. If I'm nagging my wife for BJs, I'm considered to be selfish, immature, and inconsiderate of her feelings. If I cheat on her by getting blown by the neighbor next door, I'm also considered to be selfish, immature, and inconsiderate. So it's liked I'm damned either way.



How about option number 3 and leave her the **** alone while she is pregnant. I mean wow, try to take every emotion you have, ball it up and have it explode on you all at once and see how you feel.


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## thegreatwm (Aug 14, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Wow. BJs sound so romantic and emotional for you
> 
> "I am asking for a simple sex act that will take less than 1% of her day to complete."
> 
> ...


Well I'm in the wrong house then lol. Seriously though. This was not something I focused on too much before. It started out as something small that got bigger and bigger as time went on. I didn't feel like this on day 1 of the rejection, I thought it was just a phase.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

It could still be a phase or it could be a way of life.

I don't know....do you act this way with your wife?


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

thegreatwm said:


> I might add that even though she is pregnant, the bjs stopped maybe a couple months before she got pregnant. I know that she works everyday and I know that she is tired when she gets home. We used to split the chores around the house but I am now doing most of them since she is pregnant. All I'm asking for is a simple 5 minute Bj once a week. I'm not asking her to mow the lawn or paint our bedroom. All I'm asking for is a simple half-hearted Bj. Being pregnant is something that I will never experience but I don't think that it's so bad that she can't give me a simple bj. I'm sorry but no matter what anyone says, I'm not convinced that I'm being selfish. I am asking for a simple sex act that will take less than 1% of her day to complete.
> 
> It is also not fair to compare me to taking care of a child. A child requires constant supervision, diaper changing, and nourishing. Yes it is draining but it will not kill anyone either. My wife should be happy that the only thing she needs to do to shutup her cry baby husband for the day is to give him a BJ!
> 
> I guess my ulterior motive for making this thread was to see how I can get her to give me bjs so I won't have to step outside our marriage. Like I mentioned before, I feel that if I am getting everything I need at home, then there is no incentive for me to step outside our marriage. I feel that it's a catch 22 at this point. If I'm nagging my wife for BJs, I'm considered to be selfish, immature, and inconsiderate of her feelings. If I cheat on her by getting blown by the neighbor next door, I'm also considered to be selfish, immature, and inconsiderate. So it's liked I'm damned either way.


Well I think it's a smart move to find out what can be done about it before you make such a decision to step out of your marriage. If BJ's are that important to you as it stands right now, then perhaps you do need to leave your wife and explain why. I look at marriage as something that will grow and strengthen... I have to stop myself often (we're in a money crunch in our marriage) and remind myself that we can buy "that" later, we can do "that" later, etc... I remind myself there is plenty of time left in this marriage to do things I'd really like to do with my husband, but we simply can't afford it right now. I could leave him for someone who makes more money, right? Or simply get a sugar daddy on the side  But I love MY husband and I want to experience those things with him, not some old man sitting there passing out money to sweet youngins like me (I almost couldn't type that with a straight face... lol). I do hope you will take your wife's pregnancy as an opportunity to work on yourself.... Good or bad, at least you will know that you did everything in your power to make this work.

and p.s. I don't recall anyone comparing you to taking care of a child, I read it as a woman can be exhausted taking care of a child and it leaves little wiggle room to take care of a husband too... Right or wrong, that's how I read it


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

thegreatwm said:


> I might add that even though she is pregnant, the bjs stopped maybe a couple months before she got pregnant.


Then it's probably not a pregnancy issue in the long-term. Although, in the short-term, it may be. During pregnancy, sometimes women can just be put off certain foods completely. And BJs aren't particularly appetizing even when hormones aren't going nuts. So I suggest you drop the issue until three months after your wife has given birth. That will give her time for her postnatal hormone levels to stabilize.



thegreatwm said:


> I guess my ulterior motive for making this thread was to see how I can get her to give me bjs so I won't have to step outside our marriage. Like I mentioned before, I feel that if I am getting everything I need at home, then there is no incentive for me to step outside our marriage. I feel that it's a catch 22 at this point. If I'm nagging my wife for BJs, I'm considered to be selfish, immature, and inconsiderate of her feelings. If I cheat on her by getting blown by the neighbor next door, I'm also considered to be selfish, immature, and inconsiderate. So it's liked I'm damned either way.


Maybe we can help you with that. As you already know, nagging your wife for BJs is not a successful strategy. Cheating isn't a good strategy either. You may be able to get away with a one night stand. But, you want ongoing sex, so a long-term affair or many short-term affairs will likely be discovered.

So that leaves destabilizing your marriage. This is the best strategy. However, you have to go about it the right way. You can't just walk up to your wife and say, "Give me BJs or I'm gone." As the women in this thread have shown, they don't like that kind of a direct threat.

So, you have to be subtle. If, on a scale of 1-10, you are a 6 and your wife is a 7, she will likely have little motivation to be sexually available to you. She's more attractive than you, so if you leave her, she can do better. If you're both 6s, then she will feel the need to be a little more attentive. But, it's not like you can run out and get an 8, so she's still fairly safe. On the other hand, if your wife is a 6 and you are a 7, well then she you have the upper hand. If she doesn't keep you happy, you could easily get a 7. You may even get lucky and snag an 8, which she can't even compete with. So, if your wife believes that a woman 2 sex rank points higher than she is wants to steal you away, you had better believe your wife will start blowing you.

So you need to get to work improving yourself. Get in good shape. Work on an interesting hobby. Work on your conversational skills. The next time you're at a party, let your wife see you throwing out some lighthearted, witty banter with attractive women. This will trigger her preselection instinct and she will naturally be more attracted to you.

It will probably take you several months to increase your sex rank to the point that your wife instinctively feels the need to up her game in the sack in order to keep you happy. So it works well with the pregnancy/post natal time frame you're already stuck with.

Good luck.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Thegreatwm 
Your tension and anxiety jumps off the page and I think that is why you are getting some unsympathetic responses. With your craving and relentlessness, it is all but impossible for you to get what you want from your wife. You backed her into a corner with threats.

The normal response to someone who uses force is to resist. It would take superhuman strength to give what amounts to a service instead of what it should be, an intimate act. 

You are caught up in a destructive sexual obsession but i am certain you dont see ot that way. What you are doing is an attempt to force your wife to do a sex act for you. The request does not come from an attempt to share mutually enjoyable sex which is loving. Your words say you love her but your action say you will stay only if she is useful in giving you the sex act that you want. 

I don't think she will ever be useful for you. Your attitude and attempt to coerce her with threats of leaving at a time that she is vulnerable is probably the worse thing you can do as a man. You have abandoned your role as the protector and provider for you family for a bj once a week. You appear weak and out of control. Men are at their most sexually attractive when they are in charge of themselves and are meeting their obligations. 

You say you are young, 28 is not 18 and carefree.

Given your state of mind, you have two choices, cheating or divorce.. I think the lesser of two evils is divorce. Done right, you can make an orderly exit. Your wife will be hurt and your kids will suffer the loss of a full time Dad but your wife will most likely have a replacement for you. 

The kids are young enough to bond with a father figure. If you cheat . Your wife will have to endure the humiliation of having cheating deceptive husband. 

I still think there is more to this than a bj but I don't think you are in a place to address those issues now. Would you consider getting a divorce? Do what is best for your mental state and that of your family given your obsession. No one can tell you about the unseasonableness of your craving because the only way to relieve it is to get the fix. 

It is my opinion that you will not get it from your wife. It amounts to serving you and unless her self esteem is very poor, she is not likely to allow herself to be a vacuum cleaner for you. Think independently and the best for all concerned. The very best to you and I hope you will get what you seek to relieve what must be a terrible state of mind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

You said you were recovering from masturbation addiction. Its possible this could be your new replacement. I'm NOT saying a man doesn't need, want or deserve a BJ sometimes. I'm saying you are already dealing with one addiction, so its not uncommon for people to try and replace it with something else. I'm NOT saying 100% for sure that its what you're doing, but your focus on it seems like it might be so. 

You also stated you knew she didn't care for giving them from the beginning. So I doubt thats something that will change, pregnant or not. IF you are in therapy dealing with your masturbation addiction it might be a good idea to mention the BJ issue to the therapist and see what their suggestion is. If you already have done this and mentioned it, then I apologize because I may have missed it.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

If you do what Phtlump says, come back and let us know how you did. It's win win for you. Get your self up to a nine and then you can masturbate into her mouth a couple times a day. You'll probably get a 3some every week. You will get to use her anyway you want. 

How disgusting. Just divorce. Go with your dignity intact don't become what amounts to a filty out of control abusive animal. That's what this numbers thing is advocating. Some people may follow this foolishness but let them wallow among bottom feeders and call you to join them Mephistopheles style. Misery loves company, it will rot you to the core. Leave and pay for bj every day. 

People do marry those that match them in attractiveness but it is not usually used to coerce partners to do sex acts. What a horrible world it would be if that were the case. Men and women would shuffle around like chess peices. Life would be devoid of deep emotional connection lest one partner's number changes and demands sex acts or leaves.. 

Children would experience a constant state of instability. They would learn to objectify they partners. When they grow up, they are unlikely to be able to form stable relationships no matter what their number. 

This numbers thing is a bunch of made up garbage. It takes one fact and extrapolates it into junk. Why don't you start a thread so that people can tell us how succesful they are when the play human chess?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Catherine said everything I wanted to say...but with WAY more tact


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## Rainbow_Dazed (Sep 28, 2011)

Catherine, I think you make a valid point. But I disagree on the divorce part - I hope the OP does not give up yet. 

In my eyes both partners are equally responsible for the relationship. For me changing the expectations or rules of the relationship without discussing it with the other first is not ok - wether the change is infidelity or cutting back intimacy. In my eyes they are both equally bad moves. I can understand the frustration many HD partners have when choices they have get met with contempt and yet the same time the actions of the LD partner are seen as being normal reactions to the situation.

I am not saying that anyone should give BJs if they do not want to, definately not. What I'm saying is that if you have had something as a part of your relationship for years, it's not cool to stop doing it without communicating with your partner and explaining the change that you are about to make or wish to make. If you just stop with out communicating, you are changing the relationship without even telling the other person what just happened. Just like with infidelity. 

I agree with Catherine that there is a really high emphasis on BJs in what the OP wrote and with having an addiction before, there is the chance that you, OP, are not seeing things clearly right now. Would it help you and your wife to discuss this issue, if you let her read this thread? If you answer no to this question, then my next question is why is that? 

I hope you all the best. Don't give up and don't do anything stupid either! Get help if you feel you two can't solve this on your own. And if you can't solve this even with help, then I agree with Catherine, do the right thing and divorce. This woman is someone you atleast once loved and wished to cherish and treat with respect. And she is the mother of your children and how you treat her will most likely effect your children aswell, and maybe even the relationship you have with your children. Don't let your kids get hurt for the failures that you two have had in your relationship!


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> The next time you're at a party, let your wife see you throwing out some lighthearted, witty banter with attractive women. This will trigger her preselection instinct and she will naturally be more attracted to you.


Just because this gets repeat ad nauseum doesn't make this true. The more likely result is a slap round the chops and a chance to sleep on the sofa.


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

thegreatwm said:


> It is also not fair to compare me to taking care of a child. A child requires constant supervision, diaper changing, and nourishing. Yes it is draining but it will not kill anyone either. My wife should be happy that the only thing she needs to do to shutup her cry baby husband for the day is to give him a BJ!


Do you really want your wife to give you BJs just to get you to shut up? What kind of connection is that? Maybe this is why you're being compared to a whining child.

I agree, if they only take 5-15 minutes, it shouldn't be so hard to do. I don't understand it myself as I would drop anything I'm doing to go down on my wife at the drop of a hat. But our wives don't see it that way, and there's not much you can do to change it, at the moment.




thegreatwm said:


> I guess my ulterior motive for making this thread was to see how I can get her to give me bjs so I won't have to step outside our marriage. Like I mentioned before, I feel that if I am getting everything I need at home, then there is no incentive for me to step outside our marriage. I feel that it's a catch 22 at this point. If I'm nagging my wife for BJs, I'm considered to be selfish, immature, and inconsiderate of her feelings. If I cheat on her by getting blown by the neighbor next door, I'm also considered to be selfish, immature, and inconsiderate. So it's liked I'm damned either way.


I'm most concerned with 'so I won't *have to step outside our marriage.* You don't 'have to' nag, whine, beg, or threaten to cheat! If your wife knows how close you are to cheating, like it's your god-given right to cheat if you don't get what you want, is not going to go well for you or help you get more bjs. 'selfish, immature and inconsiderate' sounds pretty accurate for the things you're saying at this point. Stop nagging, stop thinking about leaving, and take care of your wife for now. your approach clearly isn't working, so you need to do something different. don't even mention BJs for awhile.. she knows what you want so just leave it at that. She will be much more inclined to give them to you when you are being super husband/dad and not whining about it. If not, you'll need to deal with it some other way. But I'd wait until a few months after the baby is born.



Flower25 said:


> Thank you, Nader!
> 
> And it sounds like you are the kind of man who treats his wife to a little TLC at those times...which can go a long way toward helping her feel like the sexy woman she is...
> 
> ...


Thanks Flower  I do my best.. things don't always go my way and I don't always take my own advice, but when I do it pays off every now and then!


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## Kevinb (Jan 8, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> Oh man, I love that movie!....:rofl:
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah divorce her Mate.... Do the poor girl a favor and the go buy yourself a blow up doll. You are so ****ing shallow.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

uphillbattle said:


> It really doesn't worry me. I don't ask my wife for sex and don't think somebody should. The only problem I have with it is the statemen is an ignorant one and is made on these boards way to often.


Cali's response isn't ignorant. And IMO there is a real reason for the statement to be constantly made on these boards....IT'S TRUE!!! Who would respond positively to...ya wanna...would you suck my D... can I kiss you?!?! The logical response would be no. I guess since you haven't had to with your w, you don't understand how wimpy and weak that sounds. Such an unbelievable turnoff!!! 

IMO OP should definitely try a different approach....but glad to see that he decided to wait until after dealing with the birth of his second child.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

This thread has been going on for awhile, and maybe I missed it, but thought would ask, are you in therapy for the masturbation addiction issue? 

If not and you're trying kick it on your own, maybe it would be a good idea to seek out a therapist. If you do, also mention the bj issue as well, like someone else suggested. 

However, its probably not a good idea to in a therapist office and say, "My wife wont give me bj's. and I want them." You need to tell them the whole story. How she never really cared to do it from the beginning, and she only did it when you asked etc. See what they have to say. 

Maybe your wife would go with you to therapy? maybe she would open up to them and tell them how she feels on the issue?


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> If you do what Phtlump says, come back and let us know how you did. It's win win for you. Get your self up to a nine and then you can masturbate into her mouth a couple times a day. You'll probably get a 3some every week. You will get to use her anyway you want.
> 
> How disgusting. Just divorce. Go with your dignity intact don't become what amounts to a filty out of control abusive animal. That's what this numbers thing is advocating. Some people may follow this foolishness but let them wallow among bottom feeders and call you to join them Mephistopheles style. Misery loves company, it will rot you to the core. Leave and pay for bj every day.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree::rofl::rofl:
Well Put!! you're a 10!!!:smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> If you do what Phtlump says, come back and let us know how you did. It's win win for you. Get your self up to a nine and then you can masturbate into her mouth a couple times a day. You'll probably get a 3some every week. You will get to use her anyway you want.


Don't forget that it's a win for his wife as well. She gets a more attractive husband. Women like that, right? 



Catherine602 said:


> How disgusting. Just divorce. Go with your dignity intact don't become what amounts to a filty out of control abusive animal. That's what this numbers thing is advocating. Some people may follow this foolishness but let them wallow among bottom feeders and call you to join them Mephistopheles style. Misery loves company, it will rot you to the core. Leave and pay for bj every day.


Rather than advise a man to try to become more attractive to his wife, you will advise him to divorce, leaving two children without a father in the house? That's just evil. And stupid. Becoming a more attractive man is filthy and abusive? Seriously?



Catherine602 said:


> People do marry those that match them in attractiveness but it is not usually used to coerce partners to do sex acts. What a horrible world it would be if that were the case. Men and women would shuffle around like chess peices. Life would be devoid of deep emotional connection lest one partner's number changes and demands sex acts or leaves..


I remember the halcyon days when I was as naive as you are. It was a simple time that I could just stumble through life with my eyes shut believing that women and men behaved as if we were all actors in some Disney fairytale where divorce and infidelity didn't exist. Needless to say, I opened my eyes.



Catherine602 said:


> Children would experience a constant state of instability. They would learn to objectify they partners. When they grow up, they are unlikely to be able to form stable relationships no matter what their number.


Wrong. Needless to say, I will teach my children that they should try to be as attractive as possible. I will teach them that they should try to remain as attractive as possible, even after marriage. It would be a tragedy to teach them that the opposite sex doesn't (or shouldn't) care about sex appeal. Why would I teach them a fiction that will leave them vulnerable to abuse?



Catherine602 said:


> This numbers thing is a bunch of made up garbage. It takes one fact and extrapolates it into junk. Why don't you start a thread so that people can tell us how succesful they are when the play human chess?


The only way you can call "this numbers thing" garbage is if you don't believe in sex appeal. The only people who don't believe in sex appeal are delusional.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

2sick said:


> Cali's response isn't ignorant. And IMO there is a real reason for the statement to be constantly made on these boards....IT'S TRUE!!! Who would respond positively to...ya wanna...would you suck my D... can I kiss you?!?! The logical response would be no. I guess since you haven't had to with your w, you don't understand how wimpy and weak that sounds. Such an unbelievable turnoff!!!
> 
> IMO OP should definitely try a different approach....but glad to see that he decided to wait until after dealing with the birth of his second child.


Of course it's true. The ignorance of the statmenr when it comes to people on here is the fact that people act as if somebody who asks has always asked and therefore this is the problem. The problem with this way of thinking is that 99 out of 100 times the person in question didn't start off that way, only after being rejected many many many times do most guys feel that they no longer have any say therefore must ask for permission. If they didn't do it to start then it is not why she isn't doing it to begin with. Does it compound the problem? YES. Is it the root cause? NO.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Just because this gets repeat ad nauseum doesn't make this true. The more likely result is a slap round the chops and a chance to sleep on the sofa.


Not at all. It's surprising how often people interpret, "have a lighthearted conversation with an attractive woman," as, "grab an attractive woman's chest and tell her you want to sleep with her." I only advocate doing the former, not the latter. The former establishes that you're witty, intelligent, and socially assertive. Those are things that women find attractive. The latter establishes that you're a jerk. Most women don't find that attractive.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

2sick said:


> Cali's response isn't ignorant.


Thank you! :smthumbup:

I would never call someones response ignorant. I might say I disagree or something, but deffo wouldn't say ignorant.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> Thank you! :smthumbup:
> 
> I would never call someones response ignorant. I might say I disagree or something, but deffo wouldn't say ignorant.


I am sorry for the term ignorant, would misguided be better?


ig·no·rant
adj.
1. Lacking education or knowledge.
2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
3. Unaware or uninformed.

Kind of ment it as number 3 here.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> Thank you! :smthumbup:
> 
> I would never call someones response ignorant. I might say I disagree or something, but deffo wouldn't say ignorant.


Thats a good thing to not do that. To call someone else's response ignorant would just be, well ignorant.


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## Galt (Dec 30, 2011)

*With women you have to always use psychology. This means that you have to "condition" her responses to be more amenable to your needs.

My advice is to masturbate sufficiently, that you will be able to avoid getting an erection prematurely, the next time that you are "with" your wife. You should then complain that you cannot understand what is wrong, but if she would "give you a little head" it may enable you to perform. This process should be repeated until, at last, she will become used to it and will see it as a normal prelude to sex. 

Eventually you will be able to take this process about as far with her as you want, but you should remember that the whole idea is to get her to expect this if she wishes to get the sex from you which, if she is normal, she needs. This means that you have to keep the association between the bj you want, and the best sex you can give her, active in her mind at all times or you may have to start this all over from the beginning!


Let me know if this works. If it doesn't, or if she replys with something like, "You already have a little head!" I have other suggestions. *


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> The only way you can call "this numbers thing" garbage is if you don't believe in sex appeal. The only people who don't believe in sex appeal are delusional.


Everybody believes in sex appeal. Not everybody believes sex appeal is something that can be objectively quantified, particularly on shallow 1-10 scale, and with particular "acts" up- or downgrading your sex appeal by a defined amount.
Get a boob job = add 2
Gain 10 pounds = subtract 1
Get a $5k raise = add 1
Get a $15k raise = add 2.5
Get a scar in a car crash = subtract 3

It's asinine, because it assumes not only that all people are attracted by the same things, but that their level of attraction to those things is the same as everyone else's. 
It also assumes that emotional and mental deficits in a relationship can easily be solved just by making yourself sexier.
"Hey, I'm emotionally abusive to my spouse, but if I just hit the gym more, she'll have no choice but to jump my bones."

My guess ... the reason OP isn't getting blown has nothing to do with his appearance, and flirting with other women in front of the mother of his children isn't going to help his cause.

p.s. If you're going to steal someone's material about sex ranks, you should at least give him credit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Jamison said:


> Thats a good thing to not do that. To call someone else's response ignorant would just be, well ignorant.


Please oh please tell me how calling somebody uninformed makes me uninformed? Or do you not know what the word means? I posted a definition in my last post I am begging you to back up your statment, because atleast when I use it I can give my reasonings.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Galt said:


> *With women you have to always use psychology. This means that you have to "condition" her responses to be more amenable to your needs.
> 
> My advice is to masturbate sufficiently, that you will be able to avoid getting an erection prematurely, the next time that you are "with" your wife. You should then complain that you cannot understand what is wrong, but if she would "give you a little head" it may enable you to perform. This process should be repeated until, at last, she will become used to it and will see it as a normal prelude to sex.
> 
> ...


Treating one's spouse like Pavlov's dog is a surefire way to achieve a happy and successful marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

uphillbattle said:


> Please oh please tell me how calling somebody uninformed makes me uninformed? Or do you not know what the word means? I posted a definition in my last post I am begging you to back up your statment, because atleast when I use it I can give my reasonings.


I don't know that it was uninformed really. I see it as a response based on the conversation the OP put up between him and his wife. 

I do not know if all of the conversations with his wife on the matter were like that with her or not, or just this one. My first thought when I read how he asked his wife for a BJ was, WOW yeah maybe its the way you ask. Anyway the response is done and over now.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Treating one's spouse like Pavlov's dog is a surefire way to achieve a happy and successful marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl: Right? LOL


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

Jamison said:


> I don't know that it was uninformed really. I see it as a response based on the conversation the OP put up between him and his wife.
> 
> I do not know if all of the conversations with his wife on the matter were like that with her or not, or just this one. My first thought when I read how he asked his wife for a BJ was, WOW yeah maybe its the way you ask. Anyway the response is done and over now.


I thank you for putting a little backing behind your statment:smthumbup:. Looking back at what I said, MY statment as it pertains to this thread was ignorant. I didn't stop to think that he is the rare cases where he started out that way and it may be one of the problems that caused this.

CallaLilly, I sincerly apoligize for my ignorant statment to you. It was not only incorrect but inflamitory by nature and should not have been directed at you in such a manner.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Everybody believes in sex appeal. Not everybody believes sex appeal is something that can be objectively quantified, particularly on shallow 1-10 scale, and with particular "acts" up- or downgrading your sex appeal by a defined amount.


I agree that sex appeal is not objective. I did not claim otherwise. Obviously, people need to tailor their actions to their spouse's taste. If a wife has an unconventional husband who is attracted to fat women, losing weight may make her more attractive to most men, but less attractive to her husband. I thought that went without saying.



FrankKissel said:


> It's asinine, because it assumes not only that all people are attracted by the same things, but that their level of attraction to those things is the same as everyone else's.


What is asinine is to argue that, because there is some individual variability in what people find attractive, we can make no generalizations about what is attractive. I guess that's why we have so many 300lb lingerie models, right? Because every woman is a unique snowflake who can't be judged to be sexy by things like big boobs, full lips, and flawless skin?



FrankKissel said:


> It also assumes that emotional and mental deficits in a relationship can easily be solved just by making yourself sexier.
> "Hey, I'm emotionally abusive to my spouse, but if I just hit the gym more, she'll have no choice but to jump my bones."


Nope. Don't know where you got that. You getting back onto straw men now?



FrankKissel said:


> My guess ... the reason OP isn't getting blown has nothing to do with his appearance, and flirting with other women in front of the mother of his children isn't going to help his cause.


That may, or may not be the case. I only have his side of the story to go on. He has posted that he is a good guy who helps out around the house. Now that his wife is pregnant, he does the majority of the chores. I think that, if he's doing 80% of the chores now, bumping that up to 90% isn't going to get him laid more.

He also posted that the BJs stopped before his wife became pregnant. So, I think most of the people who assumed it was hormonal are probably on the wrong track.

And you may not like the preselection effect. It may not fit your preconceived notions about how men and women ought to interact. But it's reality. Arguing that it's not fair that the sun rises in the East doesn't mean it's going to start rising in the West.

Going off what the OP wrote, it seems like a typical, been married for a while and the sex is starting to tail off thread. The solution to that is usually to up your sex rank.



FrankKissel said:


> p.s. If you're going to steal someone's material about sex ranks, you should at least give him credit.


If you're talking about Athol, you can browse through my posts and see that I plug Married Man Sex Life about as much as he does. And as often as he posts here and on his site about similar issues, I doubt he would mind my helping get the word out. However, he's not the inventor of sex rank. There's a lot more people writing about this stuff than Athol. And a lot of it is just common sense, which can't really be copyrighted.


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

I think in this case, maybe a compromise should be worked out. Given the OP has an addiction, like others have said, maybe this is another form of that. I don't know the OP from Adam, so maybe I'm wrong. Maybe his wife has always disliked them, but did so just to appease him, maybe she just developed a stronger dislike for them, I don't know. 

I will flip this around though. Say wife really has a visual stimulation of sticking a big purple dildo into her husbands anus, husband does it for a while, but later on decides he's really not into it, it's uncomfortable to him and he's had enough, doesn't want to do it anymore.

Now wife is extremely upset because her needs aren't being met, he won't comply to her, tells her never again. Should husband stop whining and take one once a week to appease his wife's need for this? Should wife stop her almost compulsive need to do this? What would be the suggestion here? It's uncomfortable and unpleasant for husband, but wife really gets into this. I am just curious.

Note: I am not into sticking things into my S/O's butt, I am actually quite squeamish of the whole thing. Luckily my S/O isn't into that. Now anal on me is great, I love it and so does he, so it works out


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I agree that sex appeal is not objective. I did not claim otherwise. Obviously, people need to tailor their actions to their spouse's taste. If a wife has an unconventional husband who is attracted to fat women, losing weight may make her more attractive to most men, but less attractive to her husband. I thought that went without saying.


You agree that sex appeal is not objective but then tout a ranking system that not only quantifies one's sex appeal on a simplistic scale, but also assigns specific +/- values to specific deeds.
That's entirely contradictory.



> What is asinine is to argue that, because there is some individual variability in what people find attractive, we can make no generalizations about what is attractive.


Nobody argued that. For a guy who cries "strawman" like the boy cried "wolf," you sure throw a lot of them around.



> Nope. Don't know where you got that. You getting back onto straw men now?


Where did I get that? Are you kidding me? I got that from you. Your answer to this guy's inability to convince his wife to give him BJs is that he need to make himself sexier. You are assuming that whatever emotional issue has caused her to change her mind about that particular act can simply be solved by him hitting the gym more and finding a hobby.




> That may, or may not be the case. I only have his side of the story to go on. He has posted that he is a good guy who helps out around the house.


A good guy doesn't seriously contemplate leaving or cheating on his pregnant wife because she doesn't like going down on him. A selfish, immature guy does, however. 



> And you may not like the preselection effect. It may not fit your preconceived notions about how men and women ought to interact. But it's reality.


Love it when people state pseudo science as fact.
Please provide one piece of scientifically verifiable evidence to prove this is fact, as opposed to make believe science created for guys who hang around pickup forums.
Thanks



> Arguing that it's not fair that the sun rises in the East doesn't mean it's going to start rising in the West.


And yet another strawman.




> The solution to that is usually to up your sex rank. [/
> Quote]
> 
> How many points of sex rank does whining about your lack of BJs get you?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

ScaredandUnsure said:


> I think in this case, maybe a compromise should be worked out. Given the OP has an addiction, like others have said, maybe this is another form of that. I don't know the OP from Adam, so maybe I'm wrong. Maybe his wife has always disliked them, but did so just to appease him, maybe she just developed a stronger dislike for them, I don't know.
> 
> I will flip this around though. Say wife really has a visual stimulation of sticking a big purple dildo into her husbands anus, husband does it for a while, but later on decides he's really not into it, it's uncomfortable to him and he's had enough, doesn't want to do it anymore.
> 
> ...


If the wife in your hypothetical would only hit the gym more, take up quilting and flirt with other men, you can bet her husband would be begging for that big purple dildo up his butt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> If the wife in your hypothetical would only hit the gym more, take up quilting and flirt with other men, you can bet her husband would be begging for that big purple dildo up his butt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see, well then...lol


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

ScaredandUnsure said:


> I think in this case, maybe a compromise should be worked out. Given the OP has an addiction, like others have said, maybe this is another form of that. I don't know the OP from Adam, so maybe I'm wrong. Maybe his wife has always disliked them, but did so just to appease him, maybe she just developed a stronger dislike for them, I don't know.
> 
> I will flip this around though. Say wife really has a visual stimulation of sticking a big purple dildo into her husbands anus, husband does it for a while, but later on decides he's really not into it, it's uncomfortable to him and he's had enough, doesn't want to do it anymore.
> 
> ...


I can't speak for the op but. I have 3 rules when it comes to making my wife happy in bed. 1. No third parties allowed. 2. No animals involved. 3. No MAJOR damage. Other than that what is so friggen bad about 5,10,20 or even 60 min of being uncomfortable if it is what makes the woman I love verry much happy. If I where with someone who wanted me to go outside those 3, I would tell them it wasn't going to happen long before we got to the stage of getting married.


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

uphillbattle said:


> I can't speak for the op but. I have 3 rules when it comes to making my wife happy in bed. 1. No third parties allowed. 2. No animals involved. 3. No MAJOR damage. Other than that what is so friggen bad about 5,10,20 or even 60 min of being uncomfortable if it is what makes the woman I love verry much happy. If I where with someone who wanted me to go outside those 3, I would tell them it wasn't going to happen long before we got to the stage of getting married.


Yes, I frequently say no ER trips when it comes to sex. I wouldn't want to cause the one I love any type of uncomfort or pain in what is supposed to be pleasurable acts of love. And I'm also very upfront in the begining on what I'm willing to do or not do, so that way there is no confusion later on.


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## Galt (Dec 30, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> (Galt)My advice is to masturbate sufficiently, that you will be able to avoid getting an erection prematurely, the next time that you are "with" your wife. You should then complain that you cannot understand what is wrong, but if she would "give you a little head" it may enable you to perform. This process should be repeated until, at last, she will become used to it and will see it as a normal prelude to sex.
> 
> Treating one's spouse like Pavlov's dog is a surefire way to achieve a happy and successful marriage.


*We are ALL Pavlov’s dog. We all react, based upon prior conditioning, before we (hopefully) try to use reason. Why do you think that politicians ALWAYS take any statement of their opponents out of context, when it will benefit them, as is being done AS I SPEAK against Mitt Romney for saying, “I LIKE to fire people…!?” This is even though he was referring to discharging insurance companies when they don’t deliver good value. The pre-conditioning being employed in this particular example is that with which we are all born, and which exists because those of our ancestors who failed to begin to run immediately, when someone shouted "Sabor Toothed Tiger!!"--instead waiting to see if it was really there and if it was a danger--didn't often live long enough to reproduce.

If the above proposition were not true, why do you think that you cannot drive far from your home without seeing a giant picture of a juicy cheeseburger at the local fast food restaurant? This is meant to make the mouths of people water, just as Pavlov‘s dogs' did, even if they weigh three-hundred pounds, have a heart condition, and are taking anti-cholesterol medications! 

The really odd thing is that people seem to actually LIKE being used this way, even when it is impossible to imagine that they don't know what is going on. Maybe this is because they are so impressed, subconsciously, by the overwhelming cleverness and insite of "what makes them tick" that they are incapable of resisting the efforts of the politician, advertiser, or "marketeer" as they easily exploit their gullibility. Perhaps the same reaction explains why men, today, so willingly accept the utter nonsense espoused against them by judges in divorce courts!*


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

ScaredandUnsure said:


> And I'm also very upfront in the begining on what I'm willing to do or not do, so that way there is no confusion later on.


This is a verry good thing .


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> Not at all. It's surprising how often people interpret, "have a lighthearted conversation with an attractive woman," as, "grab an attractive woman's chest and tell her you want to sleep with her." I only advocate doing the former, not the latter. The former establishes that you're witty, intelligent, and socially assertive. Those are things that women find attractive. The latter establishes that you're a jerk. Most women don't find that attractive.


Sorry OP off topic but even the "lighthearted" flirting is offensive to most women and for me would still get him the slap and the no sex from me, my h can show me how socially assertive and witty he is by talking and flirting with me!!


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> Not at all. It's surprising how often people interpret, "have a lighthearted conversation with an attractive woman," as, "grab an attractive woman's chest and tell her you want to sleep with her." I only advocate doing the former, not the latter. The former establishes that you're witty, intelligent, and socially assertive. Those are things that women find attractive. The latter establishes that you're a jerk. Most women don't find that attractive.


Read his other threads. He did pay some attention to a woman in his wife's presence. It back fired badly. His wife gave him hell instead a bj. Does anyone have a personal example of this working? 

Let's take a leap of faith and say that random attractive women would give an unhappily married man enough time to sutter a hello before inspecting him, deeming him unworthy and walking away. 

I see several problems with this push-a-button people manipulation. If this bit of social engineering takes hold, attractive women will have lines of sad married men clambering to have canned encounters with them. It is unfair to expect a woman by virtue of her attractiveness to be saddled with a bunch of sad sacks reading from prompter while she is trying to enjoy herself at a social venue. 

Approaching an attractive woman is chancy, she is likely to shoot him down making look a fool.. If you buy into this numbers thing, you would have to consider his number - he would have to be at lest as attractive as the woman he approaches and, at the same time, have the ability to converse lightheartedly. 

That's is a tall order, but Disney said dreams do come true. Could be a beautity and the beast fairytale connection. But the great majority of men (and women) are average looking and he may have a hard time finding an attractive woman to give them more than a split second glance. 

Women, including attractive ones, rarely consider themselves props waiting around to assists unhappily married men to entice thier disinterested spouses. The biggest problem with these push button gurus is that they operate on the premise that women are simple and. all you need is an enigma code book which they happen to have for a small fee. 

I find that whenever I hide my agenda or lie or keep secrets, i feel emotionally distant from my husband. If there are things I have to remember not to talk about then my thought are not free flowing. I think that is the main problem with using props anf manipulation to solve relationship problems, it pushes people further apart.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Not at all. It's surprising how often people interpret, "have a lighthearted conversation with an attractive woman," as, "grab an attractive woman's chest and tell her you want to sleep with her." I only advocate doing the former, not the latter. The former establishes that you're witty, intelligent, and socially assertive. Those are things that women find attractive. The latter establishes that you're a jerk. Most women don't find that attractive.


The problem with the assertion is that it is based on the premise that the pre-selection approach is biologically hardwired and will invariably trump every other impulse, and will bypass psychology completely.

This is not true. It's isn't true of pre-selection, or any number of other biological processes.

The premise is that if a wife sees her man wittily bantering / harmlessly flirting, the wife subconciously realises he's s total catch and determines to have sex with him as soon as possible.

However, her concious mind may not interpret the signal as "he's a real catch, I'd better shag his brains out!", but rather "he's attracted to her and potentially unfaithful, what a POS, I won't touch him again!"

That is to say, his behaviour is interpreted not as sexually alluring, but socially / morally questionable, and lowers, rather than raises, the chance of sexual action.

Or, worse still, it causes the wife to feel bad about herself as well, knocking self-confidence or re-inforcing negative sexual stereotypes. 

In either case, it does nothing to improve sexual or emotional closeness, and may indeed act as an excellent way of building resentment instead.

I'm not saying it doesn't work for SOME of the people SOME of the time, but to tout it as a panacea is at the very best misleading.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

2sick said:


> Sorry OP off topic but even the "lighthearted" flirting is offensive to most women and for me would still get him the slap and the no sex from me, my h can show me how socially assertive and witty he is by talking and flirting with me!!


First off, it is entirely possible that you are one of the women that preselection has no effect on. Just as most men prefer slim women, but some men prefer fat women, some women exhibit atypical behaviors such as yours. I will admit that.

Secondly, are you serious? When you walk into a party, you tell your husband that he is not to talk to women? Do you reciprocate and avoid men? Or do you sit your husband in a corner, tell him to play a game on his phone, and that you'll be back for him in a while? If my wife tried anything like that with me, she would be the one in the doghouse.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

No self respecting woman will give any sex act SOLELY to keep her man. 

That's ridiculous. 

"Oh no! I better suck his joe because if I don't, he'll leave!"

That's the mindset of a 16 year old. Not a woman.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

that_girl said:


> No self respecting woman will give any sex act SOLELY to keep her man.
> 
> That's ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Amen! Amen! Amen! :iagree:


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

that_girl said:


> No self respecting woman will give any sex act SOLELY to keep her man.
> 
> That's ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Not to mention even if that 16 year old did that to keep a man, it doesn't work... You then become the booty call after he takes his prim and proper girlfriend to prom because she wouldn't do it  I've had a few of those in my time... Fun fun... Wish I'd recognized it for what it is back then.


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## Bottled Up (Nov 12, 2011)

Personally I'm glad there's the Athol Kays of the world and his followers who live by his approach... the more exposure those methods get the more good guys like myself will stand out from the crowd and be appreciated.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Preselection isn't a scientific theory. It's a pickup theory that says if a guy wants to attract a woman, he should surround himself with other women, and make himself appear darn interesting and charming in the process. The theory being that the 'target' will see that he has value and therefore be attracted to him.

This may very well work in a club setting with women looking to hook up. 

But those women, both psychologically and biologically, are in a different state from a married woman with kids watching her husband flirt with other women. In this instance, you're not going to show your value by flirting - your wife, after all, has already decided you have value - you're going to spark sexual jealousy.
Might some married women suddenly realize "my man is hot" and feel compelled to service him at the first available moment? I suppose
Studies show that in some instances a pair-bonded mate will "up her game" in response to jealousy. 
More often, though, studies show that women respond to jealousy either by acting aggressively toward their mate or by distancing themselves from their mate.

So, if you think making your wife jealous is going to get you blown, go for it. Just don't be surprised if you wind up sleeping on the couch instead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Bottled Up said:


> Personally I'm glad there's the Athol Kays of the world and his followers who live by his approach... the more exposure those methods get the more good guys like myself will stand out from the crowd and be appreciated.


While I do not subscribe to flirting with others to get my wife attracted to me, there is a lot of great material in Athol's book and blog. It is your loss is you chose to ignore it.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> Read his other threads. He did pay some attention to a woman in his wife's presence. It back fired badly. His wife gave him hell instead a bj. Does anyone have a personal example of this working?


I haven't read his other threads. So it may be entirely possible that there's a lot more going on than has been represented in the original post of this thread. YMMV. However, Athol Kay wrote a blog post recently about the key to preselection being having other women be interested in you, not you being interested in other women.

I know that it works with my wife. She works with a woman who goes on to her about how great I am. My wife eats it up.



Catherine602 said:


> I see several problems with this push-a-button people manipulation. If this bit of social engineering takes hold, attractive women will have lines of sad married men clambering to have canned encounters with them. It is unfair to expect a woman by virtue of her attractiveness to be saddled with a bunch of sad sacks reading from prompter while she is trying to enjoy herself at a social venue.


Poor, beautiful woman. She goes out in public, and she is forced to interact with men. I can't imagine the horror of someone approaching me for some conversation. I only hope that the trauma isn't too great for these delicate flowers.



Catherine602 said:


> Approaching an attractive woman is chancy, she is likely to shoot him down making look a fool.. If you buy into this numbers thing, you would have to consider his number - he would have to be at lest as attractive as the woman he approaches and, at the same time, have the ability to converse lightheartedly.
> 
> That's is a tall order, but Disney said dreams do come true. Could be a beautity and the beast fairytale connection. But the great majority of men (and women) are average looking and he may have a hard time finding an attractive woman to give them more than a split second glance.


It certainly could backfire. Engaging strangers in conversation is a learned skill. But, it's not rocket science. Even if you are naturally shy, you can still become a competent conversationalist within a few months.



Catherine602 said:


> Women, including attractive ones, rarely consider themselves props waiting around to assists unhappily married men to entice thier disinterested spouses. The biggest problem with these push button gurus is that they operate on the premise that women are simple and. all you need is an enigma code book which they happen to have for a small fee.


The nice thing about social interactions is that different people can have different, and multiple goals. If you're having a nice conversation with someone, is it really going to upset you if he's hoping his wife will notice? Why not just enjoy the interaction for what you get out of it, instead of worrying if it will somehow benefit the other person without your consent?

And, while I agree that women aren't exactly simple, you're not exactly impenetrable mysteries, either. And people tend to be fairly consistent. An individual woman is likely to be attracted to the same things that women in general are attracted to.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> You agree that sex appeal is not objective but then tout a ranking system that not only quantifies one's sex appeal on a simplistic scale, but also assigns specific +/- values to specific deeds.
> That's entirely contradictory.


Not at all. My position is that certain things can increase your sex appeal. Usually in both the general and specific cases, although sometimes not.

For illustrative purposes, we can rank sex appeal on a 1-10 scale. If you think that either of these things is illegitimate, I will simply disagree.



FrankKissel said:


> Where did I get that? Are you kidding me? I got that from you. Your answer to this guy's inability to convince his wife to give him BJs is that he need to make himself sexier. You are assuming that whatever emotional issue has caused her to change her mind about that particular act can simply be solved by him hitting the gym more and finding a hobby.


I have never argued that upping your sex rank fixes all problems. I don't know why you're arguing that I have. I will be the first to say that, if there's emotional trauma, upping your sex rank won't work. Or at least, it won't work as well. I'm simply assuming that there's no emotional trauma. The OP didn't say anything about emotional issues, so I'm taking him at his word. If you want to assume a worse case scenario, then I suppose we're just talking about different things.



FrankKissel said:


> A good guy doesn't seriously contemplate leaving or cheating on his pregnant wife because she doesn't like going down on him. A selfish, immature guy does, however.


You may be right. However, the OP's wife married him. I assume she did it of her own free will. So I assume she is fairly attracted to him. If he can increase her attraction for him, that will probably be a good thing for them both.



FrankKissel said:


> Love it when people state pseudo science as fact.
> Please provide one piece of scientifically verifiable evidence to prove this is fact, as opposed to make believe science created for guys who hang around pickup forums.
> Thanks


Science Blog -- The copycat mating game
You're welcome.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> The problem with the assertion is that it is based on the premise that the pre-selection approach is biologically hardwired and will invariably trump every other impulse, and will bypass psychology completely.


You are wrong. I'm not arguing that preselection trumps everything. It's one thing that can influence attraction. I never said otherwise.



Sawney Beane said:


> However, her concious mind may not interpret the signal as "he's a real catch, I'd better shag his brains out!", but rather "he's attracted to her and potentially unfaithful, what a POS, I won't touch him again!"


That is a danger. As I said earlier, the key is to have another woman interested in you, not to be seen as being interested in another woman.



Sawney Beane said:


> I'm not saying it doesn't work for SOME of the people SOME of the time, but to tout it as a panacea is at the very best misleading.


True. It's not a panacea. It's just something that works for most people. Obviously, everyone has to adjust tactics to their own individual circumstance. If your wife flies into a jealous rage over every interaction with another woman, then preselection is not a strategy for you.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

PTH - thanks for answering so comprehensively. 

I dont think you get me - or maybe I should not do this. I was being ridiculously hyperbolic to make a point. 

What has worked in my life is honesty and authenticity. I reveal who I am and what I think. The response I get is mixed but being loved or liked or disliked does not change who I am. 

If the OP is unhappy I think the best thing for him to do is to deal realistically with the problem at hand. 

Nothing will be gained by developing communication skills to have light conversations with attractive women. He and his wife have serious problems it would be more fruitful, albeit more difficult, for he and his wife to learn how to communicate with each other in an intimate LTR. 

He can waste money and energy on the formulas but if they worked so well why are there so many problems still? Do you know why people spend billions on useless herbs, real estate scams, psychics etc? 

Because we humans look for magic, that is our nature. It is easy as you say to develop social conversation skills. Those skills don't translate into intimate relationship skills. 

I think there is hope for the OP because he is asking for assistance. It is going to take work but the quality of the work will determine the value of the pay off for him.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> If the OP is unhappy I think the best thing for him to do is to deal realistically with the problem at hand.


I agree. I think we just disagree on what can help. Often, communication can help greatly. But I think men should certainly approach approving their relationships in multiple areas and make themselves more attractive as well. 



Catherine602 said:


> Nothing will be gained by developing communication skills to have light conversations with attractive women. He and his wife have serious problems it would be more fruitful, albeit more difficult, for he and his wife to learn how to communicate with each other in an intimate LTR.


I disagree that nothing can be gained. The OP's wife may well become more attracted to him. That's something positive. Will it solve everything? Of course not. Can it help? Sure.



Catherine602 said:


> He can waste money and energy on the formulas but if they worked so well why are there so many problems still? Do you know why people spend billions on useless herbs, real estate scams, psychics etc?
> 
> Because we humans look for magic, that is our nature. It is easy as you say to develop social conversation skills. Those skills don't translate into intimate relationship skills.


You are correct that humans look for magic. And magic doesn't exist. Even though I advocate that men make themselves more attractive, I have never stated that every problem can be eliminated through that tactic. Also, I don't think that the existence of problems necessarily means that tactics for handling those problems don't exist. Some people will refuse to be convinced that there are relationship skills that don't fit into their preconceived notions. Some people will believe that they have transcended their animal instincts and would never fall victim to psychological strategies of seduction. Some people will just be too afraid to try something different. And some people can't be convinced that there's a problem until they're served with divorce papers. So relationship problems will always exist.



Catherine602 said:


> I think there is hope for the OP because he is asking for assistance. It is going to take work but the quality of the work will determine the value of the pay off for him.


Absolutely. And the source of the problem will determine what the strategy should be and how successful it may be. If the OP's wife was brutally raped, her aversion to BJs may have nothing whatsoever to do with the OP. So they must deal with her damaged psyche. If she simply used BJs as a calculated manipulation technique to lure the OP into marriage and fatherhood, and now that the mission has been accomplished, she has no motivation to continue, then she must either change her mind, or the OP must make a hard choice. If, as I suspected, the OP's wife simply became less attracted to him as a result of his actions (gaining weight, ceasing attractive behaviors, starting unattractive behaviors), then the OP needs to change himself in order to change her perception of him. If it's something else, they'll have to figure it out.

Good thread.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Science Blog -- The copycat mating game
> You're welcome.


Fine effort, but that doesn't support your claim. You simply can't extrapolate a study showing that people are influenced by their peers when determining attractiveness into pair-bonded women reacting positively to their mate's efforts to engender jealousy. Manute Bol's arms weren't long enough for that kind of reach.

Can't do it from my phone but perhaps later I'll link you some research that shows how a pair-bonded woman reacts to jealousy. Rest assured, the findings don't indicate they get all hot and bothered.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> First off, it is entirely possible that you are one of the women that preselection has no effect on. Just as most men prefer slim women, but some men prefer fat women, some women exhibit atypical behaviors such as yours. I will admit that.
> 
> Secondly, are you serious? When you walk into a party, you tell your husband that he is not to talk to women? Do you reciprocate and avoid men? Or do you sit your husband in a corner, tell him to play a game on his phone, and that you'll be back for him in a while? If my wife tried anything like that with me, she would be the one in the doghouse.


Sorry again OP but I can't leave that one unanswered. WTF going from him FLIRTING with some one to him talking?!?!? DUHH of course my h is always free to talk to whomever he pleases...but his a$$ is not gonna flirt with ANYONE, just that simple ( at least not with some serious repercussions) !!! 

Additionally, sad to burst your bubble but MOST women, especially married ones will not tolerate that kind of BS!! Not sure where you are getting your stats on how well that manipulative game playing actually works?


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

that_girl said:


> No self respecting woman will give any sex act SOLELY to keep her man.
> 
> That's ridiculous.
> 
> ...


loooove it!!:smthumbup:


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Fine effort, but that doesn't support your claim. You simply can't extrapolate a study showing that people are influenced by their peers when determining attractiveness into pair-bonded women reacting positively to their mate's efforts to engender jealousy. Manute Bol's arms weren't long enough for that kind of reach.
> 
> Can't do it from my phone but perhaps later I'll link you some research that shows how a pair-bonded woman reacts to jealousy. Rest assured, the findings don't indicate they get all hot and bothered.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'll be interested to see the studies. Although, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the research on mate choice copying. It seems that you're admitting that single women can be influenced by other women into seeing men as being more attractive, but once those women have a ring on their finger, their DNA, or brain chemistry changes and they're no longer susceptible to the phenomenon. As I said earlier, my anecdotal evidence supports the theory.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I'll be interested to see the studies. Although, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the research on mate choice copying. It seems that you're admitting that single women can be influenced by other women into seeing men as being more attractive, but once those women have a ring on their finger, their DNA, or brain chemistry changes and they're no longer susceptible to the phenomenon. As I said earlier, my anecdotal evidence supports the theory.


 Well, yes, the brain chemistry does change. There's oodles of research on pair bonding that shows this.
Essentially, you're arguing that an unattached woman views the actions and attractiveness of an unattached male the same as a pair-bonded woman views the actions and attractiveness of her mate.
Apples. Oranges.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Well, yes, the brain chemistry does change. There's oodles of research on pair bonding that shows this.


Please provide your evidence when you have the chance. I'll be interested to see it.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

2sick said:


> Sorry again OP but I can't leave that one unanswered. WTF going from him FLIRTING with some one to him talking?!?!? DUHH of course my h is always free to talk to whomever he pleases...but his a$$ is not gonna flirt with ANYONE, just that simple ( at least not with some serious repercussions) !!!


I'm glad, for your husband's sake, that you will allow him to speak to other women in a social setting. Good for you.

However, you've fallen victim to the phenomenon I referenced earlier. I wrote that the OP should engage in some witty banter and you've interpreted that as trolling for sex. It's a common misconception. I'm interested to know if you ever fall victim to this in person. Have you ever seen your husband talking to a woman and assumed that he was asking her for sex? Or is this just something that you infer in hypothetical situations only?

Also, do you think that your anger would arise, even if you were confident that your husband wasn't asking for sex, if another woman became attracted to your husband? Hypothetically, let's assume you're at a party and your husband is talking to a woman, or a group of people including some women. He's telling a long story and an attractive woman is obviously enjoying his company. A few minutes later, she comes over to you and tells you how great your husband is and how lucky you are to have him. Would you feel a sense of pride or increased attraction to him, or would he be sleeping on the couch?



2sick said:


> Additionally, sad to burst your bubble but MOST women, especially married ones will not tolerate that kind of BS!! Not sure where you are getting your stats on how well that manipulative game playing actually works?


There is a lot of research in species from fish to human beings that the opinion of others on a mate, or potential mate, can influence our opinion. I've also seen anecdotal evidence on relationship blogs that it works. And I've had personal experience with it working.

In my personal life, I will obviously keep doing what works with my wife. FrankKissel believes that married women are not only immune to the preselection effect, but actually have the opposite bias programmed into their biology. That another's positive opinion of your spouse can actually make him less attractive to you. That seems far fetched to me. But, he claims to have support that he will post later. The relationship blogs aren't scientific evidence. Although, many stories of something working is enough to make me wonder if it works.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Oooh I'd be so proud if someone came up and said that about my husband. I'd beam with pride and say, "Yes, I know." I'd jump him right there! LOL Well, I'd take him outside first. 

Then I'd watch that woman like a hawk. I don't trust women. Especially women who make it known they find my husband attractive.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

PHT Lump--- I would seriously just skim through the OP's additional threads. I have skimmed over them, and it is apparent to me that his wife has little to no respect for him. 

Flirting is not going to change that, as you will see in one of his threads. Making himself more attractive will do more for his ego, but his wife needs some serious IC. I don't think his problems can be solved without her getting that counseling.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

that_girl said:


> Oooh I'd be so proud if someone came up and said that about my husband. I'd beam with pride and say, "Yes, I know." I'd jump him right there! LOL Well, I'd take him outside first.
> 
> Then I'd watch that woman like a hawk. I don't trust women. Especially women who make it known they find my husband attractive.


So well put That_Girl!!! Couldn't have said it better myself!! I would also like to add that talking or telling a long story is definitely not on the same line as flirting!

And that's right don't trust that biotch!!!!:lol::lol:


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> You are wrong. I'm not arguing that preselection trumps everything. It's one thing that can influence attraction. I never said otherwise.


Back in post 126, you said:
"the next time you're at a party, let your wife see you throwing out some lighthearted, witty banter with attractive women.* This will trigger her preselection instinct and she will naturally be more attracted to you.*" My emphasis. This certainly appears to contend that it does indeed trump everything...



> That is a danger. As I said earlier, the key is to have another woman interested in you, not to be seen as being interested in another woman.


If the wife's position is that the potential to stray is the problem, whether the _man_ is showing interest in a woman or the _woman_ is showing the interest, unless he's beating her away with a stick, the reaction is the same.



> True. It's not a panacea. It's just something that works for most people. Obviously, everyone has to adjust tactics to their own individual circumstance. If your wife flies into a jealous rage over every interaction with another woman, then preselection is not a strategy for you.


A jealous rage over appearing to be preparing for sexually interacting with another partner whilst in an exclusive, monogamous relationship? Who'd think it? It's like someone not becoming suspicious of a person appearing to be casing their house or car...

The problem is that preselection theory totally ignores any influence from higher reasoning or psychology. Provided that you're working with someone who is _entirely_ driven by instinct, you're fine. Probably works 100% of the time in a wolf pack. In human society, less so. Much less so.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Please provide your evidence when you have the chance. I'll be interested to see it.


Will do, whenever I get a chance to sit at a computer.
In the meantime, as a MMSL advocate, a question for you:

If a married man came here and said his wife was demanding he perform a specific act he didn't want to perform - say, every Sunday afternoon having lunch with his in-laws instead of watching his favorite NFL team - and he relented, would you congratulate him for being a giving husband? 
Or would you call him a Beta who just failed a major sh!t test?

Be honest.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> And I sure hope no one here tries to link the well-being of children to whether or not dad is getting blown. Kids won't notice, and don't care, whether dad is sexually frustrated.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Total Bullsh!t.

Dad is sexually frustrated, arguments with mom ensue because of the way she's treating him. Kids will be negatively impacted.

Or, Dad is sexually frustrated, decides for his own good to pull back from wife and focus on himself and kids. Mom is offended because, to her, a blowjob is so trivial that their presence or absence should have zero impact on the way he treats her. She gets pissed off and the kids are impacted.

Also, kids definitely care whether their parents treat each other well. My late son, at age 9, had stated his dissatisfaction with him mother "because she's always yelling at you". Kids as young as two express a preference for a parent or caregiver that is more attentive to their needs. As they age that sentiment matures into application of right and wrong, and fairness.

Not liking oral sex is a legitimate opinion (although IMO a weird one), refusing it to your spouse is a personal choice (although a dubious one).

*But, faking willingness to provide as manipulation to get one's way is a character flaw.* If she will lie, conceal, or manipulate in this way then she will do it in other ways too. It's a lack of respect to essentially lie to you because what she wants is more important than treating you fairly.

This tendency of hers to manipulate has the potential to permeate several aspects of your marriage (money, child-rearing) unless you put a firm stop to it. I know it's tough to upset the apple cart with small kids in the picture, but you've been warned.

Lastly, don't let yourself be played by the "you only want sex, you don't love me" card. Flip that around to "if you loved me you would not decide this on your own dislikes when you are perfectly capable of giving them cheerfully" or, even better "if you loved me then you would have been honest from the start about your dislike and not wait until you've gotten what you want from me".


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

that_girl said:


> So you leave behind your family.


Why would he leave his family?

What I mean is that these things usually take a "would you lose your family over this" tone to them. That sounds like a scare tactic.

A more fair way to label this is "would you be willing to lose your wife over this?" The kids are and always be his regardless if the marriage ends, and if he's an active parent there's no reason to think he cannot get 50% custody (if it came to that).

I just see no reason to see this as a binary "you suck it up for your kids OR you've failed your family".


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

He would be leaving his family, no?

Not that I truly care. It's his choice and he'll have to live with it.

Has the OP even been back here? Geesh. All this talk for nothing.

And 50% custody sucks for kids. Believe me, I know.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> To say it's a textbook bait & switch implies that she only did it to get him and then stopped once she got him to marry her.


Not really. What makes it a "bait and switch" is that she knew giving BJs (with the implicit promise that they would continue) increased her attractiveness to the OP. She knew (by his asking for them) that they were important, and she chose to let him believe that they would continue.

I think it's important to note the timing of her objection to blowjobs - at that magical "second child" mark that seems to mark the completion of child-bearing for so many people. Why not tell him before the wedding, for instance? Also, the fact that she is defensive and not remorseful for leading him on speaks volumes.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Maybe he sounds like a big, whiny baby when talking about it. Which is a HUGE turn off. He's desperate. Most desperate people aren't "cool".

We don't know their dynamics.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

wifeofhusband said:


> Let's say you have problems maintaining an erection in a few years. Would your wife be justified leaving you due to the frustration it produces in the wife (even if you are using medication)? How would that make you feel?


I see your point, but that's kind of a red herring.

The difference is that ED is an involuntary body process. He cannot control whether his body can generate and sustain an erection. She is completely capable of giving a BJ; all that is required is an attitude adjustment from "yuck!" to "my husband, who is there for me and sacrifices for me, has earned it so I will get comfortable with it".

Now, if he had ED but refused to get medical help, or that he could not get it up for her from too much masturbation or porn, then I would argue she would have grounds to leave.

Just to be clear, conscious choice does not equal medical issue.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Back in post 126, you said:
> "the next time you're at a party, let your wife see you throwing out some lighthearted, witty banter with attractive women.* This will trigger her preselection instinct and she will naturally be more attracted to you.*" My emphasis. This certainly appears to contend that it does indeed trump everything...


I don't see how. I never stated that attraction is a binary switch that is either off or on, and that the preselection effect can flip a wife from being completely turned off to completely turned on. I'm simply stating that preselection can nudge your wife's attraction up the scale a bit. If a wife's attraction to her husband is currently at a very low level, then I doubt preselection, by itself, will bring much noticeable change.



Sawney Beane said:


> If the wife's position is that the potential to stray is the problem, whether the _man_ is showing interest in a woman or the _woman_ is showing the interest, unless he's beating her away with a stick, the reaction is the same.


Perhaps. I readily admit that there is no seduction technique that will work on 100% of women in every circumstance. You are correct to point out that exceptions exist to every rule.



Sawney Beane said:


> A jealous rage over appearing to be preparing for sexually interacting with another partner whilst in an exclusive, monogamous relationship? Who'd think it? It's like someone not becoming suspicious of a person appearing to be casing their house or car...


I said a jealous rage over an interaction with a woman. I agree that most women would get jealous over asking for sex. I disagree that most women would get jealous, to the point of causing a scene, over a conversation. 2sick and that girl have already backed me up. When I asked about a hypothetical scenario of their husband pulling the interest of an attractive woman through conversation, they each state that they would be turned on, not angry with their husbands.



Sawney Beane said:


> The problem is that preselection theory totally ignores any influence from higher reasoning or psychology. Provided that you're working with someone who is _entirely_ driven by instinct, you're fine. Probably works 100% of the time in a wolf pack. In human society, less so. Much less so.


Not at all. As I said before, sexual attraction is not a yes/no question. You can be attracted to someone a little or a lot. That's why the 1-10 sex rank scale is useful. Most people will fall in between the 1 and the 10. If preselection will add a point to your sex rank, that doesn't assume that your wife is incapable of rational thought. It just means she's got a little animal in her somewhere.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> That said, I think the OP should feel he has the right to ask WHY his wife was willing to give him oral before, and now isn't, and to expect a full, honest and complete answer. By which I don't mean "I don't know" or "I don't feel like it any more".


:iagree: This is gold.

What I would ask the OP's wife is "how did the nature of your interactions transform from pleasing him to reducing your own discomfort?"

The harder question is *"do you see the slippery slope to which you've brought the marriage? Do you grasp that he has just as much right to stop doing those things for you that he dislikes? How would you feel if he did just that?"*

Recommending that the OP de-emphasize the BJs to maintain his marriage and family is reasonable. Expecting him to treat her to the same high standard as when she was meeting his needs is not. If these really are as important as he maintains, the lack is likely to manifest in the way he treats her. My guess is that she isn't prepared to see her benefits cut similarly.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

DTO said:


> I see your point, but that's kind of a red herring.
> 
> The difference is that ED is an involuntary body process. He cannot control whether his body can generate and sustain an erection. She is completely capable of giving a BJ; all that is required is an attitude adjustment from "yuck!" to "my husband, who is there for me and sacrifices for me, has earned it so I will get comfortable with it".
> 
> ...


We only know the OPs side of the story. Does he sacrifice for her? is he there for her? We don't know the answers from that in her perspective.


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## hbgirl (Feb 15, 2011)

If BJs are more important to you then I would absolutely leave the marriage.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CallaLily said:


> Goodness forbid there is something you don't particularly care for, and she wants a divorce over it.


I think he should ask her precisely this. If I were still similarly situated, it would make a big difference if my ex was of the mindset that she's willing to cut me a similar amount of slack, or if her thought process was "no, you'd better continue doing everything pretty much the same".

Because, the prior issue reflects a willingness to be fair, and the latter issue is just selfishness.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> Will do, whenever I get a chance to sit at a computer.
> In the meantime, as a MMSL advocate, a question for you:
> 
> If a married man came here and said his wife was demanding he perform a specific act he didn't want to perform - say, every Sunday afternoon having lunch with his in-laws instead of watching his favorite NFL team - and he relented, would you congratulate him for being a giving husband?
> ...


I have to default to my go to answer. It depends. 

I agree with Athol that successful husbands mix alpha and beta behaviors. Brunch with the in-laws instead of the game is certainly beta. But, if he's strong on the alpha front, and his wife rarely makes requests of him, then I have no problem with it.

Conversely, if he's the quintessential nice guy who is already bending over backwards for his wife in 50 different ways, he should tell his wife to bring him home a doggie bag.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

that_girl said:


> You focus WAAYYYY too much on this. Geebus.


Maybe, or maybe his wife has put up a Catch-22.

1) If he doesn't ask then she won't just give them.

2) If he does ask, she berates him and does not give them.

Maybe this is just a rant for us because he cannot discuss this with his wife?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

thegreatwm said:


> I might add that even though she is pregnant, the bjs stopped maybe a couple months before she got pregnant.


Although I may know the answer, I just have to ask:

If things were already going south, and you had concerns that an attitude of selfishness was going to permeate the marriage, why in the world would you conceive another child with this person?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

DTO said:


> Maybe, or maybe his wife has put up a Catch-22.
> 
> 1) If he doesn't ask then she won't just give them.
> 
> ...


I think it's a rant. A valid rant, but a rant nonetheless.

I don't think he'll leave her though. He hasn't already.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

DTO said:


> Although I may know the answer, I just have to ask:
> 
> If things were already going south, and you had concerns that an attitude of selfishness was going to permeate the marriage, why in the world would you conceive another child with this person?


I read that too... Wondering the same thing. 

This honestly sounds like an obsession to the OP and others have pointed out perhaps a cross addiction to his masturbation problem.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> If, as I suspected, the OP's wife simply became less attracted to him as a result of his actions (gaining weight, ceasing attractive behaviors, starting unattractive behaviors), then the OP needs to change himself in order to change her perception of him. If it's something else, they'll have to figure it out.
> Good thread.


:iagree: I really think that's it. If you read his other thread, he seems completely different. In this post he could easily be called an azzz. But his other posts, he seems beaten down. The relationship is full of disrespect and petty arguments. 

Of course there are two sides but he described an incident were his wife caught him looking at another women and made him go to the salon and wait for her as punishment. 

He sat there!! Right there is the whole story - this is just from my point of view. If a man let me get away with that, I would cease to him find him sexually attractive. 

I don't think it's manipulation on the part of the woman. I think she is testing him and he failed, not fair but that is it. He seems to have no self-respect and I'll bet no self-confidence. 

Guys can complain that I am blaming him because he is a man but he is the one posting. What should do you say if you see things he can fix. You can tell him it's his wife's problem but that would not help him. 

Instead of posting in this section he should be in the Men's Clubhouse.

Thegreatwm where are you?


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

DTO said:


> I see your point, but that's kind of a red herring.
> 
> The difference is that ED is an involuntary body process. He cannot control whether his body can generate and sustain an erection. She is completely capable of giving a BJ; all that is required is an attitude adjustment from "yuck!" to "my husband, who is there for me and sacrifices for me, has earned it so I will get comfortable with it".
> 
> ...


Hmmm, but you don't find that same reason her lack of desire to give him bj's, because the OP has already admitted to be addicted to masturbating and found it hard to get it aroused by her. Why is it different?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

that_girl said:


> I think it's a rant. A valid rant, but a rant nonetheless.
> 
> I don't think he'll leave her though. He hasn't already.


I tend to agree. And maybe that's the problem.

That is, maybe his wife just figures he's a good guy and that good guys will stick it out, so he will not leave, so she does not have to do anything she does not want.

I'll point out that much of the back-and-forth on this thread seems to be based on the concept of "if you treat her better, she will come around". Unfortunately, lots of women feel that the wife is entitled to more simply because she if the woman.

To the OP: if you are still out there, I agree that you need to cool it until your wife is recovered from the pregnancy. Then, you need to bring up the issue tactfully and from a position of strength. You will not go to pieces if you do not get a BJ.

But, there is a truth that relationships level out in terms of effort. It is unreasonable to expect you to be resolutely faithful and serving if she decides what she does based solely on what feels good for you. I think that is what is happening here, from what I've read. She doesn't really respect you and the sex probably is just one area where that lack of respect manifests. It's irrelevant whether you caused the lack of respect, because the reason for the lack of respect doesn't change the solution.

So, I think your best bet here, after talking has failed, is to pull back a bit and do less for her. Be there more for your kids. Cook meals, maintain the home as needed, go to the park, baths and bedtime, etc. The point of this is two-fold. One, you show that you can have a rewarding life without her approval or attention. As was noted here often, whininess is not attractive. Also, she might get off on getting as much hide off your back as possible (based on what's been written here about your other threads) and if so you need to stop essentially encouraging her.

The second point of pulling back is that you force your wife to a decision. The old balance point of the marriage was you doing those things she valued (chores, earning a living, et al.) and her doing those things you valued (including sex obviously). Now, it seems she wants to reduce her output while keeping your output at the same level (or perhaps even increasing it). 

While you cannot make her do anything, she likewise cannot force you either. You don't have to be that lapdog husband that meekly accepts his lot in life. Let her see you loving your children and getting on in life, and she will have to choose:

1) Decide she wants to get a little more of what you have to offer and step up her game (by resuming BJs, for instance), OR

2) Decide that not having you do so much for her is not so bad. The exchange between you is reset to this level.

Now, there is a possibility that she thinks she is worth the one-sided treatment and will end the marriage to get it. But, if she is a reasonable person that is unlikely. Her bailing out would mean she believes she deserves more / better than her spouse (that's you) , and reasonable people don't think that way.

Also, "divorced man of 28, two small children, seeks BJs on command" sounds no worse than "divorced woman of 28, two small children, seeks man to take care of her". For her to leave, she also would have to believe you were so deficient a husband that she can find someone better (or do better alone herself).

Read _No More Mr. Nice Guy_ by Glover, and _Passionate Marriage_ by Schnarch. Although I've never read it, _Intimacy and Desire_ (also by Schnarch) gets good reviews.

Again, I cannot emphasize enough that divorce is a possibility (although IMO not a large one). In my case, it did, but that's because my ex is seriously screwed up. Even so, by not whining and instead getting on with my life, my ex could no longer blame me (because I remained an excellent father and provider). She had to respect me as her equal and a capable individual, and acknowledge (if only to herself) that she was the problem.

So, going on as we had been would have done nothing; changing me at least gave getting a decent amount of respect a fighting chance.

For anyone who's interested in the outcome, she did try harder for a little bit. But after a while she sized up what it would take to satisfy her commitment to me and decided the price was too high. She really did feel she deserved more than me and that she was better alone if she was going to have to give it 100%.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

2sick said:


> Hmmm, but you don't find that same reason her lack of desire to give him bj's, because the OP has already admitted to be addicted to masturbating and found it hard to get it aroused by her. Why is it different?


I re-read the posts and saw the masturbation thing; my take is that the masturbation reflects (in part) a serious lack of effort on her part to sexually satisfy him.

I did not see where he said it is hard to get aroused by her. But, even if he did, so what? No matter how hot a woman is, if she consistently shuts you down you will stop wanting her - just the way it is. In fact, that's why some women will dole out just enough affection to keep a guy hooked (the "I want you to want me" issue).

By the time my ex even openly acknowledged a sexual issue in our marriage (which was much closer to the end than the beginning) my desire for her was so low that I would be no less happy if we never had any sex again (and I told her so). Isn't it much better that the OP tackle this issue before he's totally turned off?


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

DTO said:


> I re-read the posts and saw the masturbation thing; my take is that the masturbation reflects (in part) a serious lack of effort on her part to sexually satisfy him.
> 
> I did not see where he said it is hard to get aroused by her. But, even if he did, so what? No matter how hot a woman is, if she consistently shuts you down you will stop wanting her - just the way it is. In fact, that's why some women will dole out just enough affection to keep a guy hooked (the "I want you to want me" issue).
> 
> By the time my ex even openly acknowledged a sexual issue in our marriage (which was much closer to the end than the beginning) my desire for her was so low that I would be no less happy if we never had any sex again (and I told her so). Isn't it much better that the OP tackle this issue before he's totally turned off?


Sorry I'm confusing OP's posts.He said in another post that he had the addiction for 14 years...a few years longer than he was even married so she had nothing to do with it. I'm just saying that she probably just got tired of dealing with it. His other post however has her as a dominatrix of sorts...locking him in the bathroom...So here too she seems to also have a few serious issues herself. Not quite sure what to suggest anymore?!?!


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

2sick said:


> Sorry I'm confusing OP's posts.He said in another post that he had the addiction for 14 years...a few years longer than he was even married so she had nothing to do with it. I'm just saying that she probably just got tired of dealing with it. His other post however has her as a dominatrix of sorts...locking him in the bathroom...So here too she seems to also have a few serious issues herself. Not quite sure what to suggest anymore?!?!


I think the advice and rationale I gave above still works: detach from her, be happy within himself, don't whine, carry himself with weight and respect, stop enabling her to blame him and she will have to reflect (and perhaps rely more) upon herself.


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## thegreatwm (Aug 14, 2011)

Wow lots of good information in this thread. I have been thinking about this a lot as well as reading all the responses. I especially like the advice that I should use this time to become more of an alpha male. Fortunately for my wife, she has many good talents and qualities that I won't leave her for. However, I will not live the rest of my life without getting another BJ. I will wait until September (she's due in May) and ask her again. If she shuts me down then, then I will no longer ask her for it. If I ever meet another woman willing to give me a bj then I will take her up on the offer to fulfill my needs while staying with my wife. This would be all my wife's fault because she is not doing what I asked. I know this sounds shallow but I need to be happy and she is in no position to dictate what should make me happy in the bedroom. Every single time she has asked me to go down on her, I did it even on the days when I didn't feel like doing it. If she can't show me the same courtesy, then it is a loss on her part.


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

thegreatwm said:


> Wow lots of good information in this thread. I have been thinking about this a lot as well as reading all the responses. I especially like the advice that I should use this time to become more of an alpha male. Fortunately for my wife, she has many good talents and qualities that I won't leave her for. However, I will not live the rest of my life without getting another BJ. I will wait until September (she's due in May) and ask her again. If she shuts me down then, then I will no longer ask her for it. If I ever meet another woman willing to give me a bj then I will take her up on the offer to fulfill my needs while staying with my wife. This would be all my wife's fault because she is not doing what I asked. I know this sounds shallow but I need to be happy and she is in no position to dictate what should make me happy in the bedroom. Every single time she has asked me to go down on her, I did it even on the days when I didn't feel like doing it. If she can't show me the same courtesy, then it is a loss on her part.


Cheating would be YOUR fault. If you're going to screw around, just divorce her and let her find a MAN and not a BOY.

BTW: STD's are transmittable through oral, so don't give your wife something.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

thegreatwm said:


> Wow lots of good information in this thread. I have been thinking about this a lot as well as reading all the responses. I especially like the advice that I should use this time to become more of an alpha male. Fortunately for my wife, she has many good talents and qualities that I won't leave her for. However, I will not live the rest of my life without getting another BJ. I will wait until September (she's due in May) and ask her again. If she shuts me down then, then I will no longer ask her for it. If I ever meet another woman willing to give me a bj then I will take her up on the offer to fulfill my needs while staying with my wife. *This would be all my wife's fault because she is not doing what I asked. I know this sounds shallow but I need to be happy and she is in no position to dictate what should make me happy in the bedroom. *Every single time she has asked me to go down on her, I did it even on the days when I didn't feel like doing it. If she can't show me the same courtesy, then it is a loss on her part.


It is not your wife's fault if you choose to cheat. That is YOUR fault and your fault only.

You sound like such a whiny child. You 'deserve' to be happy. You you you. Ok. Well, I don't know your whole story with your wife...I'll give you that. maybe you're just completely frustrated and that would explain things.

But don't blame your cheating on your wife. That's just crap.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

thegreatwm said:


> Wow lots of good information in this thread. I have been thinking about this a lot as well as reading all the responses. I especially like the advice that I should use this time to become more of an alpha male. Fortunately for my wife, she has many good talents and qualities that I won't leave her for. However, I will not live the rest of my life without getting another BJ. I will wait until September (she's due in May) and ask her again. If she shuts me down then, then I will no longer ask her for it. If I ever meet another woman willing to give me a bj then I will take her up on the offer to fulfill my needs while staying with my wife. This would be all my wife's fault because she is not doing what I asked. I know this sounds shallow but I need to be happy and she is in no position to dictate what should make me happy in the bedroom. Every single time she has asked me to go down on her, I did it even on the days when I didn't feel like doing it. If she can't show me the same courtesy, then it is a loss on her part.


Have you ever suggested to your wife that you find going down on her "disgusting" and you don't ever want to do that again? Use some reverse pyscology? I don't know, but I know you blaming her for your decision to cheat is bullsh!t and cheating over a bj is bullsh!t.... You have at least 3 other ways to cum, release if you will, with your wife and in your own home... Sex, handjob and masturbation. If BJ's are the breaking point of your marriage vows, you need to be fair and honest with your wife. You go ahead and ask your wife for a BJ in September, if she gives you the same answer, you tell her what you told us. Suggest sex therapy at that time, invest the energy you would use to find some **** outside of your marriage, and invest it in trying to come to an honest and dignified resolution to your marriage. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

P.S. I can bet you money if you decide to cheat and it only consist of a bj, you will be paying money to some nasty street *****, or good money to a high class escort service... No self respecting woman would agree to JUST suck a married man's d!ck. Any way you do it... STD galore. Your poor wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

Here it is 15 pages later and 200 and some posts later, and apparently no one has gotten through to him. I think he had made up his mind long ago before he even posted he wanted BJ's and he would get them anyway he can, period. I think he was looking for validation, and whether he gets that or not, he will still do whatever it takes to get a BJ, if not from his wife from who ever. Good luck!


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

True.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

I really hope his wife finds out. No one deserves to be cheated on, but some people deserve to be divorced.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Yea. This is really sad. 

Not "boo-hoo sad" either.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

SOME marriages just need to end. OP and his W treat each other like garbage. What is the point of being married when you don't really like each other?????


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

SunnyT said:


> SOME marriages just need to end. OP and his W treat each other like garbage. What is the point of being married when you don't really like each other?????


Some like the drama of it all. I know some people claim they do not like drama and chaos etc, but for some, if they didn't have at least that, they wouldn't have any thing. Just sayin.'


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## thegreatwm (Aug 14, 2011)

trey69 said:


> Here it is 15 pages later and 200 and some posts later, and apparently no one has gotten through to him. I think he had made up his mind long ago before he even posted he wanted BJ's and he would get them anyway he can, period. I think he was looking for validation, and whether he gets that or not, he will still do whatever it takes to get a BJ, if not from his wife from who ever. Good luck!


I actually learned a lot from this thread. I was originally ready to cheat on her earlier but from the advice here, I decided to try to fix this situation 3 months after she gives birth. I also learned that I deserve to be happy just like my children need a father. That's why I feel it's better to not divorce her over this. If my wife fails to meet my demands in the bedroom, then I will have to turn to alternate sources so I can be happy. It may not be worth tearing my family up over but it's not worth me living the rest of my life unhappy either. Is there any woman here that can honestly deny their husband a normal sexual act and then get upset when he gets the same act from someone else. I'm sure the answer is no.


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## SunnyT (Jun 22, 2011)

The answer is YES. When you got married, you made PROMISES to her. So IF you cheat, then you are breaking those promises. 

I agree that you have a valid grievance, and it's good that you are letting it sit for awhile til after the baby is born. But the idea that it will be ok to cheat at that point is whack. When you feel it has come to the time to cheat.... THAT is the time to get a divorce. You will still have your children if you divorce.... it's all about how you handle it.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

thegreatwm said:


> Is there any woman here that can honestly deny their husband a normal sexual act and then get upset when he gets the same act from someone else. I'm sure the answer is no.


Do what? Do you REALLY need to ask? When your unsuspecting wife catches you cheating, I'll let her answer that question. You are basically here telling a bunch of people you plan on cheating on your wife, the mother of your children... We can't fix why your wife doesn't want to suck your ****, we have given you several ways for you to resolve this and you want nothing to do with any of them... The only solution you see is lying and cheating to your wife.... That sir is a disgrace for an act of love, but no, that's right you just need a mouth to masturbate to... It has nothing to do with love to you and I suspect your wife knows that AND that's why she finds it disgusting. Good day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

You haven't learned a thing except to delay cheating until 3 months after the birth of your child. I am going to predict that your wife will not give you a bj. The fact that you think you can demand a sex act shows that you have a warped view of sex. 

If you can think of a woman responding positively to a demand and a threat, you have really bad times ahead.. When your wife makes demands of you and threatens you, what do you do? You resist and you don't do what she wants. That is what she will do. Only a women with extremely low self esteem would dream of servicing you. Your wife does not sound like that kind of women. You will be lucky if she has more than occasional sex to shut you up.

Under those circumstances you'll cheat and i am certain ler her know. If you expect her to capitulate then you are in a serious delusional state. Your wife will not tolerate coersion and you will likely lose your family. I don't think you will do so well in your search for a woman to service you because your view of women is worped. You may have had beginners luck with your wife, not many women would tolerate your bj demands for as long as she did. You will discover that after your wife has moved on. 

I hope wake up and take the lead to solve the problems in your marriage. You may have to hit rock bottom before you turn yourself around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thegreatwm (Aug 14, 2011)

Maybe it is a little harsh if I say that I demand a sex act but that doesn't detract from the fact that it is something I like and that I want. For example, if your son keeps asking you for candy and you keep saying no, you can't really be too upset with him when you find out he went behind your back and stole the candy. You would be just as much to blame since giving him candy would not have been wrong in the first place and your decision was purely arbitrary on your part.

Contrary to what everyone here thinks of me, I do not demand bjs from my wife to demean her or to solidify my role as king of the castle. I feel that bjs are a act of gratitude and it tells me how much she loves me as a husband and a provider. If I come home from a long day and she gives me one, it tells me that she appreciates me and this is my reward for taking care of my family. I have explained to her my view on this btw. Maybe my view is twisted but when she denies me, it makes me feel like I am not appreciate or loved at that moment.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

Better analogy. You go for a job interview, and everyone is very nice and pleasant, and when you start working, people want you to do work, sometimes at off hours, nights, and weekends, and have criticism, and inconsistent rules. 

Do be realistic about your marital options. With divorce, you're looking at custody and visitation orders, seeing your kids about once every weeks, paying about 15,000 to 50,000 for a lawyer who will tell you everything is your wife's fault, and you are entitled to whatever you want and then when your money runs out you get a dose of reality, your parent(s) complaining about their lack of access, friends taking sides, hassles over everything, support orders and garnishments. Consider whether it's worth it. 

Look, we I did a survey about this one drunk Saturday about 3:00 A.M. and the participating wives were about 20%. That number will presumably be less when a wife just finished a pregnancy. If you believe there should be a federal labeling and disclosure law for this, I wouldn't disagree, but it's not something to get divorced about. 

Before anyone jumps on my case, I will start off with an analogy. Imagine that you bought a new car and you love it dearly. When you bought the car, the A.C. worked perfectly and it gave you no problems. One day, the A.C. stopped working and you found out that there was no way possible to repair it. Even though you love the car, you have to drive around unhappy and uncomfortable because you are hot due to the lack of A.C.. Would you continue to drive the car without the A.C. or would you trade it in for a new one even though you love your old one dearly? 

This is how I feel about my wife. She is currently pregnant and I'm getting recovering from a masturbation addiction. When we first got married. My wife would give me BJs whenever I asked her. Usually she wouldn't do it if I didn't ask. Last year, every time I asked for one, she always made a stupid excuse such as her mouth hurts or she doesn't feel like it. Please keep in mind that I never ejaculated in her mouth. 

Now, I understand that she is not always in the mood for sex (especially since she is pregnant) but she told me a couple months ago and she thinks BJs are disgusting and she doesn't want to give them to me anymore. I thought she was kidding but every time I asked about it, she gets really upset and defensive. She really stands her ground and refuses to satisfy me. This makes me upset because she used to give me Bjs before we were married and also during the first part of our marriage. I feel like I was scammed because I am young (28) and I can't imagine living my life without another BJ. If I was older, maybe I would be content with this but not at 28!

Now the issue is....What should I do? I really love her and we already have 1 son together. She is due to have the second baby in May. I have always did what she wanted to do sexually and I can't get anymore BJs? I help with chores around the house and I do everything a good man should but she neglects me on this. Like I mentioned before, I feel duped on the whole thing. The only option I think I have is to either leave her or either find someone on the side to satisfy me. She is a good woman and mother but I feel that she doesn't love me if she can't give me a bj. She knows that I am clean so there is no excuse for her not to satisfy me. I am also open to any tricks that anyone has that may change her mind and start to give them to me. I am thinking that if I can convince her that another women wants to give me one, she might submit on the issue. Please Help![/QUOTE]


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

thegreatwm said:


> Contrary to what everyone here thinks of me, I do not demand bjs from my wife to demean her or to solidify my role as king of the castle. I feel that bjs are a act of gratitude and it tells me how much she loves me as a husband and a provider. If I come home from a long day and she gives me one, it tells me that she appreciates me and this is my reward for taking care of my family. I have explained to her my view on this btw. Maybe my view is twisted but when she denies me, it makes me feel like I am not appreciate or loved at that moment.


How can you even say that? You're willing to let some woman, any woman, suck your **** if your wife doesn't, are those *****s showing their love and gratitude to you too? 

I wish you would head over to coping with infidelity forum.... You can read up on all the hurt caused by what you are saying you're going to do. It's more that a just a sex act. You are missing that aspect of the whole thing. I personally don't give a crap what you choose to do, but give your wife the opportunity to choose whether she wants to be cheated on or not. Tell her your plan. Ohhh noooo, that's a concept huh????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

I think the thread is now more all long the lines of anything for attention. He has made it clear he wants a bj and they are highly important to him, and if he his wife fails to give him one, he will seek it else where. 16 pages later he is still saying pretty much the same things, he wants, needs gotta have bj's. He is recovering from masturbation addiction which IMO the bj's has been all long, has been the replacement for the masturbation. If it wasn't bj's it would more than likely be something else.


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## AgentD (Dec 27, 2010)

"Should I leave my wife if she fails to satisfy me orally?"

I think you should let your wife read your threads and then let her make the decision for the both of you.


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

It would be real nice if the wife already suspects something and she's been snooping on his computer and found his history on her own, no doubt this guys been to Craigslist by now ... Maybe she's over in coping with infidelity as we speak...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

OP,

if your willing to consider divorce over not recieving oral, I highly suggest you follow through. I cannot say I agree with your reasoning, but you do need to be a man and stand your ground. If your not happy, get out, or you only have yourself to blame.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

thegreatwm said:


> I feel that bjs are a act of gratitude and it tells me how much she loves me as a husband and a provider. If I come home from a long day and she gives me one, it tells me that she appreciates me and this is my reward for taking care of my family. I have explained to her my view on this btw. Maybe my view is twisted but when she denies me, it makes me feel like I am not appreciate or loved at that moment.


This statement is inconsistent with your position that you are willing to stay married to her, yet get BJs on the side.

If BJs are a simple, physical act that you crave, then you could argue that you can satisfy your craving with some bar skank. You would still be morally unjustified, but at least you would be consistent.

Since you're arguing that BJs are your preferred way of feeling appreciated and loved, you can't argue that some random bar skank's mouth can fill that need. It's one or the other.

Based on other posters relating information from your other threads, you're kidding yourself. If you're not man enough to pass your wife's fitness tests, you're sure not man enough to convince some single woman to allow you to use her for sex. That takes pure, unadulterated, alpha bad-boy vibes. If your wife can bully you into waiting for her at the salon, your alpha chops are nowhere near the level needed to get a BJ in the parking lot of a singles' bar.

So I will go back to my original advice. Work on improving yourself. Work on becoming more attractive to women in general, and your wife specifically. Then, after the birth of your child, you can approach your wife from a more powerful position to discuss your relationship. If, at that time, she refuses to join you in working on your marriage, then you can suggest an open marriage or just divorce and move along.

Good luck.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Wow.

You expect her to give you a BJ to say thank you for going to work? :rofl: Sorry, but wow. My husband gets frequent BJs but not right when he gets home. that's what it sounds like you are wanting.

Sad that you put so much stock into BJs meaning love. Hope you find it somewhere...but tell your wife first. Then tell your friends that you're going to leave/cheat beacuse you need BJs.

I'd laugh if I was your friend.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

thegreatwm said:


> I feel that bjs are a act of gratitude and it tells me how much she loves me as a husband and a provider. If I come home from a long day and she gives me one, it tells me that she appreciates me and this is my reward for taking care of my family. I have explained to her my view on this btw. Maybe my view is twisted but when she denies me, it makes me feel like I am not appreciate or loved at that moment.


You should take care of your family because you made a commitment to do so when you got married and had kids, and because it's the right thing to do. Not because you'll get a "reward" for it.

Though since that's how you see it, how do you "reward" your wife for all she does to take care of the family. Hopefully with something that's at least as important to her as BJs are to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

He's going to cheat, no matter... Hey baby, I'm running to store to get some diapers, back in a few... What bull****. In his search for the almighty BJ, he's going to take away from precious time with his babies. What a waste.


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## Dr. Rockstar (Mar 23, 2011)

AgentD said:


> "Should I leave my wife if she fails to satisfy me orally?"
> 
> I think you should let your wife read your threads and then let her make the decision for the both of you.


*DINGDINGDINGDINGDING!*

"We have a winnah!"


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Should she leave you if you fail to satisfy her orally? I think you already are.


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## thegreatwm (Aug 14, 2011)

After reading this thread as well as other threads on the infidelity forum, I don't think I will be cheating on my wife. I'm sure she will be much more hurt than I am with my lack of bjs if I got caught in an affair. I have put these issues on the back burner for now so we can focus on our unborn child. I will revisit them when her hormones are back to normal and hopefully, my view of things would have changed by then so I can find an alternate release if bjs are really something that she will forever forbid in our house. It still disgusts me when thinking about it but I guess it's just a part of life and the ways that people change. Thanks for all the advice and take care guys!


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## Erom (Jan 24, 2012)

thegreatwm said:


> This is how I feel about my wife. She is currently pregnant and I'm recovering from a masturbation addiction.
> 
> Now, I understand that she is not always in the mood for sex (especially since she is pregnant) but she told me a couple months ago and she thinks BJs are disgusting and she doesn't want to give them to me anymore.
> 
> ...


my first thought, maybe during your masturbation addiction, did she catch you watching oral sex videos during, looking at bj pictures, saying "suck my _ _ _ k" while playing with yourself?
Maybe it struck a nerve and the thought of oral, just reminds her of you pleasuring yourself, maybe while ignoring her?

secondly, not sure if you still enjoying every other kind of sex, just restricted in that one area (I'ld say enjoy what you have, and maybe bring it up every now and then and maybe it will turn around at some point..) pushing too much will just tick her off more....

And as far as doing whatever she wants sexually, maybe the next time she asks for something, offer a barter... oral for ????

As far as tricks.... might work for one... but probably wouldn't help in the long run... now one I might point out is when giving her oral or even any other form or sex.... bring her to the brink of cumming, and stop... repeat a few times... then... offer, if you get bj, she can have orgasm... (make sure all the batteries in her toys are dead, so at best she'ld have to steal them from remote to finish herself off) don't finish yourself off without her though, tell her you'll wait until she gets off. You might only get lucky when you've got her really horny (or drunk or both)

swollen, painful breasts from lactating, and a baby not nursing (and pump magically not working, at least temporatilly, but you'll fix it latter "just for her") might have the same effect... offer to relieve the pressure in exchange for relieving yours either before or after... 

Also.. even though not willing to do oral... would she go for hand job.... with lube, can be just as enjoyable (almost)


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## nicky1 (Jan 20, 2012)

your wife is selfish, if she was totally wanting to love you she would do anything out of love not out of being made or told to, she thinks she is the focus of the marriage and is running the household the way she wants to, this has its proof in the bedroom , a surrendered wife is what you need, one who will realise the marriage covenant is not about what is in it for her but what she can do for you, this is vice veras too, then both are truly free and the bedroom will be the best place ever


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