# Justification or "just how it was" ?



## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

This morning we got into it. He was yelling, throwing things, slamming doors. I did raise my voice, but i did NOT yell, throw things or slam doors. 

Later I apologized for my part in the argument. Honey, I'm sorry for the argument this morning - I don't want to fight with you 

He counters with "i'm sorry I defended myself" 

WHAT? 

He said that his yelling, hitting, throwing things and slamming doors was defending himself because I pushed him to it. 

He insists that is defending himself and not justification... ideas?


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

Not sure what triggered your argument, but his "defending himself" is probably about something verbal you said, something he felt you have "torn him down"

For instance in my other post I got mad at my wife for giving my son a chocolate bar in her brand new car when I asked that no food be brought in the car. When I saw the chocolate all over his hands and face....I blew up, it was my trigger.

you know it is like carefully building a card house with a deck of playing cards and your little brother comes by and knocks it off.

Boom, erruption... whatever the "trigger" was or the erruption was over, he felt you were doing something to him, kneedling him, pushing him...verbally.

Like a kid verbally teasing or bullying at school.

he was so mad....so angry he had to hit something, his testostorone got the best of him. He channelled his anger by slamming the door and throwing things, as opposed to hitting you. I'm glad he is not a hitter, some men are, most are not. 

He is still hot under the collar, give him space and time, while you can probably get over the argument, he is still fumming over it, it is still bothering him. He needs a outlet to vent his anger, such as this board or a friend, or something.

Believe it or not when I get angry at my wife and I ended up yelling, what do I do? I end up cleaning the house to channel my anger into something positive, Don't get me wrong I am pissed, but I am doing the dishes while cursing under my breath...lol Maybe that is why she gets me mad?? lol

In my other post, I got angry at my wife in the car, when I got home, I cooked dinner (roast and veggies)for me and the boys, I also cleaned out the dishwasher, placed the dirty dishes in them, plus cleaned the counters, and did a load of laundry and put it away...my wife napped on the coach while I did this but she knew to leave me alone and let me "get over it"

He is still mad, give him space and time to cool down, he will apologize when ready.


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## recent_cloud (Apr 18, 2009)

your husband is not interested in taking responsibility for his marriage, children, or his own behaviour.

this may sound strange, but i'm kinda glad you 'raised your voice'. it's good to let off steam once in a while.

as an aside,maybe one day you'd be kind enough to clarify the distinction between 'raising one's voice' and 'yelling'. after all, one must raise one's voice in order to be in the state of yelling, but also one must yell in order to raise one's voice.

and you don't have to answer this today. take your time. remember, i'm a little slow on the uptake and would hate to hold up the class.

i think i've found my favorite emoticon:


:bounce:

bouncybouncy


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

arghhhhhhhhhhhhhh


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

"had" to hit something? HAD to yell? 

That sounds like justification for his behavior to me.


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## Veronica Jackson (Jul 2, 2008)

Throwing things, hitting and slammig doors is abusive behavior and falls under the category of intimidation. Calling it "self-defense" is denial because somehow he is blaming it on you.

In his eyes, throwing things and slamming doors is supposed to scare you.

Take this advice seriously and seek counseling from the nearest domestic violence counselor. Your husband needs anger management asap.


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## freeshias4me (Dec 4, 2007)

Hmmph...You husband sounds like mine...He got looped on alcohol, then when he fell down in the tub, he blamed ME! He told me he fell only because he was thinking about something I said. (Silly me- I only told an anti-social person I wanted to make some more friends).


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

These "men" yelling, slamming doors, and pitching temper tantrums like two-year-olds should be given a court ordered eviction notice and told not to come back until they can grow up!

There is NO use in allowing yourself to get sucked into arguing with a two year old. Two year olds are not sane.

I can't imagine living with and putting up with someone who yells, screams and slams doors. There are just too many fish in the sea!

I hope there are no young children watching these men act this way....


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

freeshias4me said:


> Hmmph...You husband sounds like mine...He got looped on alcohol, then when he fell down in the tub, he blamed ME! He told me he fell only because he was thinking about something I said. (Silly me- I only told an anti-social person I wanted to make some more friends).


Honey, you need to walk....


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

Interesting that the women here say he has anger management issues becuase he yelled, screamed and slammed a door or threw something.

As a guy, I don't see it that way, the man has lost it, he has blown his top, the teststorone has been fueled in his body, he is exploding with RAGE.

If you asked your husband every day to pick up his dishes and put them in the sink, and he never did it, no matter how many times you asked. Everyday he left them there, dirty, food on it, never once picked it up and cleaned it off. Then you found dishes in the living room, up in your bedroom, etc. Day after day....you would not yell at him? ever?

Come on get real people.

I don't know what happen between Snix and her husband, but what ever it was it pushed him over the top, she pushed his buttons.


I know my wife likes to push my buttons, she loves it when I do get mad (sometimes) but I know this and she is quick to say she is just egging me on when she see's me getting irritated with her. I also like to push her buttons but when I am being playful I let her know I was just teasing her.

I mean where do you drawn the line between what is abuse? If she was continuly egging him on, does that count as abuse?

I've seen some women out there egg their husbands on and blatanly lie to get the guy in trouble, I even know one woman who slammed her own head into the door then called the cops and said her husband did it!! As the cops were there she just gave him a smirk like, "haha told you so!" they are divorced now, but she still sends him e-mails and bothers him about their daughter. That guy is a mental mess now because she walked all over him.

Not say that is you Snix, but something triggered this abnormal behavior for him, as you said usually he is withdrawn and stays to himself and reads.

something put him over the top. He lost his cool and I bet he hates himself for losing control, I know I hate it when I do.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

Thanks for your input, soccerman. Maybe the two of you could join a he man beating up inantimate objects club? 

I do NOT ever think to myself, lets make him REALLY mad and see what happens. I hate it when he's mad at me, cold to me, unhappy with me. I understand that your wife may feel secure enough in your relationship do to that - he'll love me no matter what I do - but I know that's not the case with me. 

I have teased him before, but just light teasing. I try not to do that anymore with him as i never know what's going to be accepted with a smile and what will be met with anger or derision. 

If I had a man I KNEW loved me, no matter what - I would tease him more - egg him on sexually to get a rise out of him and maybe get him to spank me (lol), but never to piss him off. I don't like seeing people in a rage, it reminds me too much of my youth.

I see that you (and probably others) see a man's rage as a natural reaction to being 'made' angry and nothing to have to worry about controlling in themselves because it isn't necessary for the male to do so. Kind of like not having to worry about the female taking out the garbage? lol


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## Sandy55 (Jun 3, 2009)

I will admit I was a yelling, screaming person "way back when". It did me no good, it did my family no good. I did it out of frustration at others. I am a perfectionist at heart and this causes great frustrations because well, _no one is perfect_. SO under a personal dawning I *learned*: 

It does not matter how many of my buttons are pushed. I cannot act like a two year old, especially in front of CHILDREN. I cannot act like a fool , throwing things, pitching ranting and raving fits and get a positive results:biggrinangelA: from ANYONE. It does not FIX a thing. :scratchhead: 

And if an "adult" pushes buttons on purpose to get the other in a partnership pissed off and upset, it is WRONG, but TWO WRONGS don't make a right. I am happy to say I have never been a button pusher, because I hate my buttons pushed (I have SO many... as does my dh )

If my dh did not pick up the dishes, etc., I would remind him, and pick them up myself. If it goes on and never changes, he needs to go find a baby wife for his baby issues. It is as simple as that. In our home, HE is the one who compulsively picks up dishes and "things" to put them in their place. (He is OCD). He drives me crazy, I will put down scissors I am using and next thing, they will be gone, he's put them "in the right place" (Yes, honey, but the right place when I am cutting wrapping paper is in my hand!!!) 

One has to DECIDE to be an adult, GA. One has to make a decision to let their "testosterone" OR their "PMS" get the best of their MIND. 

*We all have free will*. 

One CANNOT dump the blame for our own actions on our spouse. If MY spouse drives me crazy by leaving his socks all over the place, and it BOTHERS me and not HIM, then I must figure out a WAY to fix MY problem, not just yell and *****. That does not SOLVE the issue.

I have several choices to make:

A) TEACH myself to not be bugged by the socks.
B) TEACH my dh to be a more respectful person.
C) Get a new partner, 

CHANGING living habits of a person takes WORK and yelling is a substitute for not knowing what the heck to DO to teach a person. Yelling is NON-creative. It is also a stress outlet that is just inappropriate, unless you are alone.

The REASON yelling and screaming at a spouse do not work toward POSITIVE change are:

A) It is treating them with disrespect. MANY adults have been yelled at as a child. It pisses a spouse off to be yelled at like you are their parent and it starts resentment and retaliative behavior.

B) Teaching does not involve yelling, *****ing, and pitching a fit. In order to TEACH you must have a receptive spouse and yelling at a spouse does nothing but cause the spouse to shut down.


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

well as I said I can talk only for myself, the times where I have been "that mad" is about a handful, which is not bad for 19 years.

Again, I can't speak for your husband, only he can explain it after he calms down, wait until he is calm and starts to talk to you "normal" then talk about it, that you do not want to get to that point.

I have a neighbor who is single, he won't get married anymore, he was married three times, he beat all three wives. He said he can't handle being married and for everyones safety he should remain a single man. He is the typw that is very quiet, but I an only imagine what he is like when he loses his control. I can't imagine it good. I know he has gotten counseling and anger management, but he knows to remain single for the health of the other women. I know he has made amends with his past wives, they still talk to him and one visited when her daughter ahd to see a specialist in Atlanta, he let them stay there so they did not have to get a hotel, he is a nice guy, when he is in control.

So I understand you point, I hope you can find this trigger and stay away from it for both your sakes.


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

hey sandy, see it's hard for us to really help Snix, becuase we put our own personal twist on how we view the world.

Snix could have easily said, "good morning' and he was already stewing about something and exploded. Which is bad, you know like a volcano building steam until it erupts.

Like you, I am the tidy one, my wife is a pack rat. I grew up in a house of 9 children, we had to put everything in it's spot, last person to bed turns on the dishwasher, first one empties it (I slept in! ) we had assigned chores, etc. My wife ont he other hand had no chores and her mother had OCD, she still has it to this day, her mother even apologizes to me for her daughter being a slob. 

I had learned while dating my wife, she will never change, i've learned to loosen up over the the years and not get upset, I clean up on my terms, as does my wife, usually it is handled with little fan fare.

My point was, and like you said, you got angry in the past and threw that tantrum, but you learned to adjust, be versitile. I am sure you have your lapses like we all do, and relize it and try to do better.

The point is in marriage, no one is perfect, if you can learn to adapt and adjust and compromise to your spouse you can make it through.

My wife wants to get her eye's fixed with surgery, I tell her go ahead, whenever you are ready, she hasn't done it yet because she is scared to, she also wants a mommy make over, and I told her..go ahead, but you should get the eyes done first. I've put money on the side for whenever you are ready. But she needs to do it on her terms.

My daughters room is a complete mess, but she wanted three friends to sleep over, I said sure no problem, but you have to clean your room in order for them to sleep on the floor, took her three weeks, but she got it done and she had her sleep over....it's messy again...oh well.

My wife is the one that leaves dishes lying around, i'll leave them for awhile and then eventually pick them up, never saying a word.

but for what it is worth, my wife will vacum the pool, mow the lawn, help me install the wood floor in the basement, steam clean the rugs, and take out the garbage as needed.


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## Anterior (Jun 14, 2009)

Would he be willing to speak to a Chaplain or some other professional about anger management or argument modification techniques so that he doesn't get so physical?


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## freeshias4me (Dec 4, 2007)

Thanks, Sandy and Soccerman! Your input was so good, I copied it and pasted it, so I have it when I need it


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## Veronica Jackson (Jul 2, 2008)

I was serious about my post. A healthy person can handle stress without resorting to hitting and throwing.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

snix

I don't know what the argument was about. But that really isn't important.

Mr. Z is depressed. Deeply depressed. This kind of reaction, especially if it was over something trivial and took you by surprise, is another prime sign.

He needs a good therapist. 

If you are going to stay with him...or more to the point, let him stay with you...please try to get him that help. He needs it. And you need it.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

GAsoccerman said:


> I hope you can find this trigger and stay away from it for both your sakes.


So it is HER fault for pushing HIS buttons/pulling HIS trigger?

This is the classic abuser defense. HE is 100% responsible for his reactions and behaviors, no one else. HE is 100% responsible for how he acts when angry. HE is 100% responsible for allowing himself to become angry--anger is a choice, one made by allowing one's self to continue in thinking patterns and assumptions that are unhealthy. 

Substitute "beating the S*IT out of her" for "slamming doors and throwing things." Next, substitute, "calmly told me blah, blah, blah." Now do you see why we are saying he clearly has anger management issues? 

Most of us will feel some anger on occasion, but some of us have managed to reduce it to so few times that it is almost a thing of the past. I used to feel it a lot, but worked on that, and now it is so, so rare, and I can always figure out why I'm having an anger reaction, rather than something else--usually, it's because I'm too tired or too stressed and haven't been able or willing to deal with my fatigue/stress. A really sick kid, for example, may make it hard to get enough sleep so I snap at my other kids. Is it what th kids did? NO, it's my state of mind at th time they . . . acted like kids. Under normal circumstancs, I'm not going to waste energy getting angry at kids being kids; I'm just going to deal with it. 

It may be more challenging for a testosterone-juiced male to learn to manage his anger, but it is no less possible. I know too many men who DO manage theirs quite well, however, to think that "men simply can't." Giving into that type of thinking is reinforcing a cultural assumption that is not based in any scientific reality, I suspect.


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## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

Sandy55 said:


> Honey, you need to walk....


Hey, Sandy, you look JUST like a young Katharine Hepburn. Wow. Has anyone ever told you that before?


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

If I could identify either a verbal (on my part) or other trigger, I probably would avoid them for the time being. Unfortunatly, his triggers keep changing. It is possible and has happened recently that I will even be chastised for NOT doing something that caused him to be angry before. 

For instance - he was in a bad mood, I brought him dinner in his office (we often do this for each other when we are working) he got mad at me and said he didn't want it. The next day I leave his dinner in the microwave and tell him it's down there if he wants it. He then gets angry at me for NOT bringing it to him (what? Now i'm not good enough for you to bring me dinner?) 

I could have exploded at that point - I certianly felt pushed to it (lol) but I just said 'sorry. I wasn't sure what you wanted. would you like me to bring it to you?' he counters with "don't bother" and I said only "ok. let me know if you change your mind". I felt that was the healthiest thing I could do at the time. Then a week later, I'm depressed. He brings me dinner and I didn't eat it, my stomach all in knots. He asked me 'aren't you going to eat it? I brought it to you?" I said "I'm not very hungry right now, thanks" and he throws the food across the room. I did lose my temper a bit at that - I said 'well that's not very mature' (especially as he did that in front of the kids!) and left the room. 

It's a no-win situation with his reactions. I'm learning just to be me, be quiet and if I do say something - make sure I'm prepared for ANY type of answer and to realize that the answer / reaction may or may not make any sense to me. It's exhausting living like this tho. Walking on eggshells all the time, never knowing when something I consider benign will make him angry, cold, distant, happy or loving. I feel like i'm always having to be on high alert with him.


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

Snix, have you gotten back together, I thought you both were done? I thought he was going to move out or you were?

I know your a smart woman and do a ton of research, it's hard for us to give advice when we don't know the subject like you do.

Only you know what is best for you and your family. 

have you thought about moving on without him? I know it is tough with the kids. 

I know you been bouncing around trying to figure it all out, maybe he doesn't want to figure it out? only he knows.

But I know you are a "thinking person" maybe that is what bothers him, maybe your various degrees and intellect is tough for him to handle, some men have problems when their wives are the bread winner, maybe he has a hard time dealing with your superior intellect over certain issues.

only he can really answer why he got so mad.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

He has brought up at various times over the years that i'm "so smart and he's dumb" which frankly is ridiculous. I may have more schoolin' but he's much better at certain things than I am. His ability to think, reason and even introspection is as good as mine when he uses it. 

As for getting back together - he's now on the 'well, if i try it's never good enough for you' but he's back to 'trying'. whenever i try to talk reasonably about him moving out - cars, living arrangements, timelines, custody - he says he wants to talk about it later. He will bring up the conversation, then cut it off if I seem reasonable. If i'm depressed, upset or otherwise 'unreasonable' he will follow me around hounding me about it. I feel like he wants me to lose my temper to justify his actions or thoughts.

of course i've thought about moving on without him. I don't have much of a choice once he leaves, do I? 

As for why he gets mad - he will always answer that it was either my fault or "I don't know" his standard pat answer these days.


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## DownButNotOut (Apr 9, 2009)

The thing is snix, that you are looking for rational explanations of what is going through his head.

I'm willing to bet he is Depressed (Big "D"). Which means he is not being rational. He can't be rational in that state.

I still think that to make any progress, he is going to need professional help, whether that is counseling or an anti-depressant.

Only when his mind is in the right place, can the two of you be rational about the relationship and what you both need from it.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

I've suggested he needs help. He thinks just moving out and getting away from relationships is the key. IE, get rid of me and everything will be fine.


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## GAsoccerman (Mar 24, 2008)

then let him and move on...if he won't help himself, then you can't help him.


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## snix11 (Sep 25, 2008)

I can't stop him from moving out, that's his choice. He wants to move out when we mutually agree i'm financially stable. I don't know what to think of that.


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## dcrim (Oct 1, 2008)

Snix...leave him alone. 

Don't make him dinner, don't take it to him. 

Don't do his laundry. Be roomies. Literally. Can you sleep in another room? Or make him? 

Do not initiate conversations. 

Watch what you want on TV or listen to your favorite radio station. Concentrate on yourself. 

Ignore him. Give him what he seems to want. His space and don't invade it. 

I know you have some outside interests...keep doing them and TELL him he's responsible for the kids when you're out! If he won't/can't take care of them, that borders on child endangerment. 

I know you love him, girl. I know you want him back. Right now, I just don't see it happening. And as long as he's still around, you can't begin the healing process. 

Believe me, he's the problem...not you or anything you did or did not do. You are not to blame in any way! 

Is there any family of his around? Is there any way to force him to a doctor? Can you get a doctor to come see him if he won't go to the doctor? Something, anything...I'm grasping at straws for you...

Dang, I could spend my whole life looking for a woman like you!! And he's throwing you away...it's just not right. And he won't see that he's the problem. 

I am sorry girl. You're a beautiful woman. A loving, caring woman. One who deserves to be loved as you love. I wish I could do something, or suggest something, but I don't know what...

I know you have the Feb. '10 deadline. Please follow through! Get yourself healthy, better.


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