# it's not over yet



## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

My girlfriend is a serial cheater. We've reached a point where I don't know whether I should dump her or marry her. I will spare the details unless asked for them:

She cheated on all but one of her previous boyfriends. The one she didn't cheat on was (of course) the scumbag ex-con who treated her poorly and was cheating on her. He left her for another woman. After it was over she discovered he had given her an STD. 

Prior to me, her longest relationship was with a soldier to whom she was engaged. While he was off fighting wars she was cheating on him. When he returned she cheated on him with his best friend. After a few times of this happening he kicked her out. 

She has cheated on me with at least one guy, and more likely two (during the same time period). The one I know of definitively was a guy she had been "hooking up with" around the time she started seeing me. She told me she ended it and they were "just friends". Of course that was not true and eventually, after several failed attempts, she claimed to have recognized that she can not in fact "just be friends". Which is good because the guy has publicly stated that he views her as a **** and was using her for sex. 

After the last incident with him she has had no contact to my knowledge, except for a few times when he attended the same parties as us (he kept a polite distance). It has been approximately two years now and during this time I've had no reason to suspect further infidelity.

That all changed a few weeks ago. We were having a big argument, I don't even remember about what exactly. She has been starting arguments more recently, especially after she has had a few drinks. She gets angry and starts pushing buttons until I'm apologizing, defending myself, or calling her on her rude behavior. Either way it tends to spiral into an argument. During this one it suddenly occurred to me for the first time in more than a year, what if she is cheating again? What if that explains why she has been so aggressively provocative...?

I demanded to see her phone, no texts. I demanded to have her log in to Facebook. On the same day approximately a month ago she messaged two men. One is a guy she had been having sex with prior to her previous boyfriend. We ran into him once early in our relationship and it was awkward but I didn't think anything of it. I now suspect he is the second guy she was cheating on me with. The other guy she messaged was the one she definitively was cheating on me with. Both messages were friendly questioning about what was going on in their lives. Neither implied previous recent contact or sexual intent. Neither had been replied to by the men despite several weeks having gone by. Regardless of the intent or circumstances I see this as a huge red flag. 

Initially, I was devastated. I told her our relationship was over and that she would be moving out. The next morning, both of us now sober and somewhat hungover, we reconciled. She claims to have not thought about what she was doing and to have not realized that it was inappropriate. Since then things have been somewhat better, and we haven't spoken of the incident again. 

I don't believe she is cheating on me again, but I don't trust myself. It seems like she may have started down that path again (possibly without self-awareness?) but I caught on before it turned into more. Or, perhaps there are other guys I don't even know about. Or, maybe she really was just naively messaging two guys she used to ****, not realizing it was a major transgression of boundaries... 

I think my reaction on discovery snapped her out of it, but I know I shouldn't believe that. I had begun to really trust her again and now this has set everything back. If I didn't love her so much I would of given up years ago, but I really do believe she wants to be a better person. I want to spend the rest of my life with her, but I can't do that unless she is faithful. I thought we had finally reached that point.

Has anyone else been in a situation like this? Does anyone have advice on what I should do? Most of me wants to forget all about this most recent incident, but I know what a bad sign it is.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

ren said:


> My* girlfriend* is a serial cheater.


I hate to say it this bluntly, but that right there ^^ is pretty much the end of the story. Why do you want this in a GF? It's hard to make a leopard change their spots...

Unless you want to keep doing this as long as your with her IMO you need to move on.


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## Forsaken (Feb 14, 2011)

Bail, it's not worth your time. Things will eventually get better and then she will go back to these habbits. It's not going to stop, she's already proved that. Cut your losses and save yourself a lot of time, money and mental anguish.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

> My girlfriend is a serial cheater. We've reached a point where I don't know whether I should dump her or marry her.


I confess I read no further. DO NOT MARRY THIS WOMAN.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

Serial cheater says enough for me too.

Regarding your question, however, I think it depends on if she had agreed to end ALL contact with these fellows or not... ie, did she lie to you about this? Either way, she was fishing and inviting them. 

Sorry but "Dump her or marry her" is a really odd way to be thinking about this. I mean c'mon, no way should you marry her, especially at this point with these questions. Whether you dump her (which I would) or ty to 'work at it' kind of depends on my first question and her desire to be full transparent about it all, imho.


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

OK, since everyone seems to be hung up on her being "only" my girlfriend: This is a serious long-term relationship comparable to marriage. I was married before, I take my relationship with my girlfriend just as seriously as I ever took my relationship with my now ex-wife. Other than dealing with divorce paperwork, terminating our relationship will be just like a "real" divorce. 
It may come to that, but I'm not there now and I don't want to ever be there again.


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## 2xloser (May 8, 2011)

OK, so it's serious to you and comparable to marriage. Does she feel the same way? Because if she does -- and has nonetheless cheated on you with "one, more likely two" guys -- then yes I would dump her. Because serious relationship or not, it's not a marriage, and you don't have to give her half your stuff to do so. So before I even considered spending money on a wedding and signing papers that said it was a legal agreement and ultimately ended up giving her half your stuff down the road and wishing you never had, I'd run far away. You have been here before then and you know the difference. Prevent it.


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## Forsaken (Feb 14, 2011)

It's not that everyone is so hung up on you guys just dating, it's that you would even think about M after her actions. Were just trying to make sure that you're not setting yourself up for failure so your not back at this website in 6 months to 2 years because she did it again.

I understand that your dedicated to your relationship and it's quite apparent that she isn't. She also isn't the one for you, there is someone out there who will appreciate you for everything you are and respect you.

It's known that she is a serial cheater, so why put yourself in this position again? Why set yourself up for failure? If you were at your friends house and found out that this friend was a serial killer would you continue to sit in the house and drink with them or would you bail?


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> I confess I read no further. DO NOT MARRY THIS WOMAN.


Yea, I didn't read past that sentence either.

Count your losses and trade up. Develop more self-esteem and self-worth while you're at it  You can shine!! Go find someone who helps lift you up rather than drag you down.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

She has an established pattern of behavior and I don't see any impetus to make her change now. She knew what she was doing was crossing boundaries, she's already done it multiple times and in multiple relationships. She was fishing by contacting these men and is lying to herself and you if she says it was innocent curiosity. She should be in therapy if she really wants to change. If she can't recognize why she cheats, then she won't be able to stop it from happening again in the future.

You're unmarried with no children, I think dumping her is a better option than marriage. Do you honestly think your girlfriend is capable of being faithful for a few years let alone the next 50? Perhaps if she spends time working on herself as a single person, then maybe you can reconsider and date again someday. But in the meantime, you'd most likely be better off single and open to a new relationship. Once you've had some distance, you may wonder why you put up with it as long as you have. 

Good luck with whatever decision you make, infidelity is painful no matter how it strikes.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

ren said:


> OK, since everyone seems to be hung up on her being "only" my girlfriend: This is a serious long-term relationship comparable to marriage. I was married before, I take my relationship with my girlfriend just as seriously as I ever took my relationship with my now ex-wife. Other than dealing with divorce paperwork, terminating our relationship will be just like a "real" divorce.
> It may come to that, but I'm not there now and I don't want to ever be there again.


I treated this as much. What I said was based on you having a serious rerlationship and wanting to take this to the next level. Unfortunately she is not serious about the relationship. This is not just not a good idea it is absolutley one of the worst ideas I have ever come across. I am not a young man either.


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

Agree with 2xloser. Marriage and long term relationships are the same emotionally, but one is a legal agreement and one is not. Even if you were married, I'd recommend moving on. You've already been through the rebuilding process at least once after discovering her affairs, now you're considering doing it again? I'm only giving my H one chance to rebuild, regardless of our marriage and children. I can't go through this again nor do I want to. It's your decision, but at some point you may be put in this situation again. So, are you willing to take that risk? I'm willing to risk it, but only this one time.


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

2xloser said:


> Serial cheater says enough for me too.
> 
> Regarding your question, however, I think it depends on if she had agreed to end ALL contact with these fellows or not... ie, did she lie to you about this? Either way, she was fishing and inviting them.
> 
> Sorry but "Dump her or marry her" is a really odd way to be thinking about this. I mean c'mon, no way should you marry her, especially at this point with these questions. Whether you dump her (which I would) or ty to 'work at it' kind of depends on my first question and her desire to be full transparent about it all, imho.


I don't think it was ever quite as explicit as "end ALL contact", I thought of it in those terms though, I assumed. I feel like that's an argument entirely about semantics, whether her attempt at contact violated the specific wording of her agreement is irrelevant to whether it was a betrayal. She should of known better. The reason we reconciled the next morning was because she said she now knows better, has nothing to hide, and would be entirely transparent at any time. I've not tested her on this, and I know what a skilled liar she can be, but I want to believe her. 

I agree that "dump or marry" is odd, I am very conflicted. I can't know the extent of her betrayal. According to her she sent those messages innocently and in ignorance to how they would make me feel. I'm inclined to believe her, but I know that rationally I shouldn't, yet what I believe doesn't change the unknowable reality or that this was in fact a betrayal. But on the scale of betrayals it seems very minor. After so much progress in rebuilding trust this is a little thing to end on. 

Is it impossible for a serial cheater to ever become faithful? I think they can if they want to be, and she says she wants to be.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

ren said:


> My girlfriend is a serial cheater. We've reached a point where I don't know whether I should dump her or marry her.


If you marry her, you can expect more of the same. Your doubt is your gut yelling at you loud and clear. You don't trust her. And have good reason not to. 



ren said:


> This is a serious long-term relationship comparable to marriage. I was married before, I take my relationship with my girlfriend just as seriously as I ever took my relationship with my now ex-wife. *Other than dealing with divorce paperwork, terminating our relationship will be just like a "real" divorce. *


Eh, no it won't. A divorce and a break up are NOT the same. And a breakup without the headaches that go along with a divorce = totally different ballgame. 

Now, I am not minimizing your relationship with your girlfriend at all. but to compare... there is no comparison, IMO.

You don't trust her. That says it all. Why would you want to marry someone you can't trust even before saying I DO??


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## Saffron (Mar 7, 2010)

If you want to try and work this out, then you should be in therapy. My H knows if he were to ever contact the OW, he'd be betraying me. He told me about a moment he had a few months ago where he considered leaving a note for the OW saying "good-bye". Then he jolted to awareness and realized it would've been contact. If she didn't realize you'd be hurt by her contacting these men, then she doesn't understand the magnitude of devastation infidelity causes and how it affected you.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

ren said:


> I know what a skilled liar she can be, but I want to believe her.


This will end in pain for you... 

She may be able to fix herself with a lot of hard work but do you want to be the whipping post she flails herself against until she decides to fix herself - if she ever does??


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

ren said:


> Is it impossible for a serial cheater to ever become faithful? I think they can if they want to be, and she says she wants to be.


Not unless she gets SERIOUS professional help to deal with her issues that probably come from childhood.

She says she wants to, but she hasn't. What more is there to say?


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Not unless she gets SERIOUS professional help to deal with her issues that probably come from childhood.
> 
> She says she wants to, but she hasn't. What more is there to say?


I have arranged for us to start seeing a therapist together. I've not told her yet but I'm certain she won't be opposed.

I don't know where her issues come from, she has explicitly said she never suffered any childhood abuse, and her parents have been married over 50 years and seem to have a relatively happy and stable relationship.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

She has proven herself to be a liar so I wouldn't believe her when she says she hasn't had any issues as a child.

Sometimes people oppress their issues so not to have to deal with them.

It's good you got into therapy with her but she needs personal therapy...I don't know if she'd take it though. Serial cheaters have a problem...or...she just wants to be single and doesn't want to hurt you.


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

that_girl said:


> She has proven herself to be a liar so I wouldn't believe her when she says she hasn't had any issues as a child.
> 
> Sometimes people oppress their issues so not to have to deal with them.
> 
> It's good you got into therapy with her but she needs personal therapy...I don't know if she'd take it though. Serial cheaters have a problem...or...she just wants to be single and doesn't want to hurt you.


That's a good point about not believing her on incidents from her childhood. I hadn't realized it but I've been assuming that she only lied to me about her infidelity. It seems obvious now that I have no actual evidence to support this assumption, but I do have evidence of her masterful ability to lie. 

I do think she would go for individual therapy, she has been in therapy before and has expressed interest in returning off and on for the past few years. I'm hoping that our couples therapy can lead into that actually happening.

It is possible that she wants to end our relationship but lacks the courage or certainty to take direct action. I've suspected this off and on several times. In recent months she has accused me of wanting to end our relationship, and has expressed insecurity/jealousy about my interactions with other women. 

Perhaps she is projecting her own internal state onto me? I've read that this is very common; the cheater accuses their victim of cheating, the person planning to leave accuses the other, etc. I imagine it's all about guilt and the desire for self-justification, both of which I know are major motivations for her unhealthy behaviors.


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## sexuallyfustrated (Mar 24, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> I confess I read no further. DO NOT MARRY THIS WOMAN.


YOu said what I was yelling in my head. I started to stop at that point myself.
This woman cheated on every good man it seems she had. The only one she didn't was the one who did it to her.

Marry her, seriously:scratchhead:.
If you marry her knowing this than don't expect any different after. 
She knew she was wrong for reaching out to those guys don't think that she didn't. She had already cheated on you with at least on you knew of, where else was that going to go. 
I believe if either one or both would have messaged back then it would have moved forward. 
Trust your guts, trust what you know TRUST HER BEHAVIOR because it says that she will not change anytim soon, specially if you marry this woman now. I do believe ppl can chang but man thats a lot.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

ren said:


> That's a good point about not believing her on incidents from her childhood.


Maybe it has nothing to do with her childhood. Maybe she's just a serial cheater. Maybe it's just that that is who she is.




ren said:


> It seems obvious now that I have no actual evidence to support this assumption, but I do have evidence of her masterful ability to lie.


And you want to marry her...

Seems your gut is already telling you she's not in it 100% (per her past history, your gut feeling of her wanting out off and on, and you finding she contacted two of her exes, of at least she 1 that she cheated on you with). Your instinct is telling you Be careful...Your mind is doing that to your gut. It's warning you. You just don't want to listen to it. Don't want to heed the warning. Want to pretend your relationship isn't what it is, that she isn't who she is. It happens. Love makes people blind/stupid/foolish. I've been there myself. We all have. 

Her being accusatory towards you regarding hceating and other women--is definitely projection. See, she has done it to you (more than 1x) so she thinks you will do it to her someday. It's par for the course. 

I am curious--were you the other man in one of her relationships? Did she leave someone to be with you?

I think deep down you know what you should probably do but you are trying to rationalize it away. And that is fine. It's your life to live. Your choices to make. 

The bottom line is that you don't trust her. It's apparent from everything you write. Line for line, sentence for sentence. 

So with that said, you have two choices: Leave or live with it.


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## sexuallyfustrated (Mar 24, 2011)

So with that said, you have two choices: Leave or live with it.

AGREED


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## COGypsy (Aug 12, 2010)

What exactly do you think marrying her will accomplish in all of this? I have my suspicions, but I'm curious to know why that's the alternative to dumping her.

While she could certainly have some deep, dark childhood secret, she could also just be a chronically spoiled, immature person with no impulse control that doesn't ever have real consequences for their actions. If she's always had two or three guys on the string at once, then it doesn't really matter if one kicks her to the curb, now does it? It doesn't matter if one calls her names because she has these other guys who clearly "care" enough to tell her she's pretty and fv(k her. 

She's probably getting her self-esteem from all of this and that's a hole you aren't ever going to be able to fill, no matter how big a diamond you put on her finger.


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

sexuallyfustrated said:


> She knew she was wrong for reaching out to those guys don't think that she didn't. She had already cheated on you with at least on you knew of, where else was that going to go.
> I believe if either one or both would have messaged back then it would have moved forward.
> Trust your guts, trust what you know TRUST HER BEHAVIOR because it says that she will not change anytim soon, specially if you marry this woman now. I do believe ppl can chang but man thats a lot.


You are exactly right, I am letting my love for her distort a rational assessment of her behavior. I've done this in the past and I've taken many steps to prevent it from continuing, but when I love someone I can't help seeing the best in them. The thing is, her behavior had changed since she vowed loyalty. Or, it's seemed to have changed. I'm only aware of this specific incident, but logically the odds are that this is the tip. I'm terrified of whatever else may be below the surface, but I think I'll sink into paranoia if I don't find out. I don't know what to do about that, she has offered to be entirely transparent but I have no doubt she can outsmart me on that. I don't feel comfortable playing Big Brother, it makes me feel like I've become some kind of Nietzchean monster.

I agree that I can't marry her now. Thinking things through a bit there is a pattern of us growing closer followed by her acting out in various ways that push us apart, so it makes perfect sense that me reaching a point where I thought she could be a wife has resulted in her recent behavior. Not that it's my fault, it's obvious she has serious problems with intimacy. 

The horrible thing is I can't let go of the belief that she can be a better person. I've seen her make progress, even if there have been major setbacks on occasion the trend has been positive. I know I am going to be hurt whatever happens. If I stay with her I'll suffer until she gets better or destroys us, if I leave her I'll suffer the painful loss and unending guilt of abandoning the woman I love to whatever demons haunt her.


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

COGypsy said:


> What exactly do you think marrying her will accomplish in all of this? I have my suspicions, but I'm curious to know why that's the alternative to dumping her.


It was a kind of decision point where I held two opposing views of her but couldn't embrace either one. I guess I still can't but I'm at least beginning to form a third view.



COGypsy said:


> While she could certainly have some deep, dark childhood secret, she could also just be a chronically spoiled, immature person with no impulse control that doesn't ever have real consequences for their actions. If she's always had two or three guys on the string at once, then it doesn't really matter if one kicks her to the curb, now does it? It doesn't matter if one calls her names because she has these other guys who clearly "care" enough to tell her she's pretty and fv(k her.


The more I think about it the more it does seem likely that she had some kind of childhood abuse or trauma that effected her development. Just based off what I know of her sexual history and teenage behaviors it makes perfect sense that something deeply warped her in her childhood. Or maybe it was just how she was raised, that's entirely plausible too. She has lived with minimal consequences for her failures, the parents are always there with money and the problems money doesn't solve she runs from.




COGypsy said:


> She's probably getting her self-esteem from all of this and that's a hole you aren't ever going to be able to fill, no matter how big a diamond you put on her finger.


According to her, once she understood what a terrible thing she had done by cheating on me the guilt really damaged her self-esteem. She has a thing with holding on to guilt and using it to feel bad about herself. It seems like that may be because she feels so little of it and hasn't let it stop her. In this most recent incident she expressed feeling terrible about doing something she didn't realize would hurt me. From my perspective it seems more like she has high self-esteem and all of this is her seeking reasons that justify hating herself.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ask her to take a polygraph. If she refuses, you have your answer.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

ren said:


> The horrible thing is I can't let go of the belief that she can be a better person. I've seen her make progress, even if there have been major setbacks on occasion the trend has been positive. I know I am going to be hurt whatever happens. If I stay with her I'll suffer until she gets better or destroys us, if I leave her I'll suffer the painful loss and unending guilt of abandoning the woman I love to whatever demons haunt her.


ren, you have quite the Knight In Shining Armor (KISA) complex going there. You cannot fix her, no matter what you do. She has to do that herself and seek help, and they won't do that until they hit rock bottom. Please don't be a slave to your KISA complex.


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## Lily_B (Jul 28, 2011)

Think of yourself first and foremost. It is difficult, but most importantly, remember you cannot change her, that starts with her wanting to change for herself even, not for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

I know I can't fix her, she has to do that herself and the best I can do is help and encourage her. I think my issues are more that I tend to be self-destructive and have a very difficult time being selfish.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

ren said:


> I know I can't fix her, she has to do that herself and the best I can do is help and encourage her. I think my issues are more that I tend to be self-destructive and have a very difficult time being selfish.


I think if you continue this relationship you are exhibiting the former. Leaving the relationship is not the latter - it is self protection.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

ren said:


> I know I can't fix her, she has to do that herself and the best I can do is help and encourage her. I think my issues are more that I tend to be self-destructive and have a very difficult time being selfish.


It is far from selfish to have self respect. In fact you are no good to anyone unless you have self respect. So I am going to turn this around. It is very slefish of you to be lazy and not develop your self respect. 


Move on, do what is needed to gain respect for yourself. Only then will you be in positon to truly love someone and for them to love you back. Your lover deserves someone they can respect.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

The question I have, will you leaving this relationship b/c you are runing away from her, or will you leaving the relationship b/c you diserve good this and diserve to be happy?


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

wow, how many times will we see this very same pattern in a thread?


OP- makes post about cheating SO, begs for advice on what to do
20 people then more or less give the same advice
OP- bemoans that he can't do that because blah blah blah

why come on here and ask for advice from people who have experience with similar matters and then ignore it because you don't like the answer?

Bottom line is you can't change people, you can't control people- you can only change and control yourself

the best you can do is influence people by your own actions

it's the old blood from a stone adage- if the SO isn't willing to do what is necessary and what you need and deserve then find a way to get out of that situation and then find someone who will


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

Almostrecovered said:


> wow, how many times will we see this very same pattern in a thread?
> 
> 
> OP- makes post about cheating SO, begs for advice on what to do
> ...


I've been reading through many threads and I see this pattern too. Subjectively, my situation is different. Objectively, my situation fits the pattern and the odds are I'll be posting an "I found out she's cheating again" thread in the future. If I do everyone can point back to this thread and say "I told you so". 

To answer the question, I've found all of the advice tremendously helpful. I'm not following it because I can't just dump her, I think I've explained my reasoning for that adequately in previous comments. But it is informative and has forced me to see things differently and understand my situation better. 



Almostrecovered said:


> Bottom line is you can't change people, you can't control people- you can only change and control yourself
> 
> the best you can do is influence people by your own actions
> 
> it's the old blood from a stone adage- if the SO isn't willing to do what is necessary and what you need and deserve then find a way to get out of that situation and then find someone who will


I believe I can be a positive influence in her life. I entirely agree that I could find someone better, but as long as she is willing to keep trying I want to stay by her side. It is worth the suffering to demonstrate to her what loyalty and commitment really are, even if she throws it all away again. To me, this is love. 

Maybe I have a ****ed up idea of love?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Not everyone is advocating to dumb her, just that if you want to have a positive influence then you need to have the tough stance that if she continues her BS then she will lose you.

I am all for making it work but both parties have to commit or whats the point. Its great that she is making an effort. Your chick has to see there will be a consequence to her bad behavior, or she will never change.

The thing I see is you can stay by her side and continue to enable her by tolorating her unhealthy behavior, or you can stand up and show her the tough love she needs to make the healthy changes she needs to make. But the bottom line is you can't always change people so you except them for what they are.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey ren---If she wants to cheat, she will cheat, many betrayeds never, know about the cheating that goes on---they just blithly go thru life, unaware that their spouse is having sex with another----If their spouse works, there is almost no way to be able to keep an eye on them, so cheating goes on, and you never even know

The real question here is do you wanna be a parole officer the rest of your life, and do you wanna walk on eggshells the rest of your life---cuz staying with her, will include those two situations


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

ren said:


> Maybe I have a ****ed up idea of love?


Quite possible.

Are you sure you personally are as mentally proficient as you think you are? Have you been to therapy? Been checked out? No family issues, no rescuer identity, no fear of abandonment, no Mr Nice Guy assessment?


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> Quite possible.
> 
> Are you sure you personally are as mentally proficient as you think you are? Have you been to therapy? Been checked out? No family issues, no rescuer identity, no fear of abandonment, no Mr Nice Guy assessment?


No, I am not certain I am as mentally proficient as I think I am. I believe I am entirely rational and self-aware but I know that no one really is. I try not to trust my own judgment too much. I often write notes to my future self so that when things are particularly bad or particularly good I can maintain a proper perspective on things. It sounds odd but it really helps.

Yes, I have been to therapy and it has been helpful. I definitely have some issues, namely a propensity for existential despair. I've been getting it under control though; after a lifetime of embracing misery and just saying no to drugs I started bupropion a few years ago. It really opened my mind to a reality I could never admit. My depression is largely a matter of brain chemistry it seems. It may not feel like that once I've sunk into it but then I read a note from my past self reminding me that more dopamine precursors and some regular sexual activity is enough to get back to a less bleak perspective. Since then I've been able to deal with all sorts of things in a much more healthy manner, at least I think so.


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> I am curious--were you the other man in one of her relationships? Did she leave someone to be with you?


I realize I never addressed these questions. To my knowledge, I was not the other man but within the first few weeks of our relationship (prior to any explicit discussions of monogamy) she was dating another man. This is the guy she cheated on me with. She lied by omission for the first few months and then "confessed" (the implication was that it never reached a physical level), telling me she had ended it now that she realized how serious our relationship was. I was quite surprised, but given the circumstances and her apparent sincerity I "understood" and continued our relationship. She continued to be "just friends" with him.
I eventually learned just what that really means.


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

Progress of various sorts... giving in to the paranoid temptation I checked her Facebook messages - she left herself logged in on her computer and I went to check my Facebook on it so it was difficult not to peak. Reassuringly, there was nothing to see there. I take this as major evidence that my recent fears are overblown. I'm not a snooper so I feel quite a bit of guilt over checking like this but I'm glad I gave in to the temptation, it's good to have definitive evidence that she deserves trust even when I can't give it. 
Also positive: tomorrow evening is our very first session of couples therapy. I have no idea what to expect but I'm excited we're getting this ball rolling, even if it ends up crushing me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Glad you're going. Remember that in therapy, your goal is to be heard, not to punish. Encourage her to speak up, and really listen to and HEAR (get) her - that's usually a man's worst trait, not hearing. Then make sure that you get the same opportunity. Don't expect any answers the first few sessions.


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

turnera said:


> Glad you're going. Remember that in therapy, your goal is to be heard, not to punish. Encourage her to speak up, and really listen to and HEAR (get) her - that's usually a man's worst trait, not hearing. Then make sure that you get the same opportunity. Don't expect any answers the first few sessions.


Thank you for this advice, I remembered it during our session and it was helpful. Therapy went great, and definitely exposed some painful things I've ignored that will need to be dealt with. I'm sure there will be more. I was really surprised at how effective our therapist was at provoking dialogue and keeping it directed productively with really minimal intervention.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Glad to hear it!


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## drsparkle (Aug 7, 2011)

I am so sorry to say this but she will continue to hurt you if you let her. 
Consider yourself having a lucky escape and give her the boot. 
Find someone trust worthy and loyal, who will love you right. 
Find true happiness in your life. 

Such a nice, kind person like yourself should have more self esteem and value yourself more. You will find a much better woman in the future. 

Let this rotten one jog on and shag as many people as she wants.


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

More red flags:

1) This past weekend I was hanging out with her and her co-workers. There's a guy she works closely with who fits her criteria for attractiveness. The look on his face when he first arrived was odd, he looked away quickly and wouldn't meet my eyes. Afterwards we all went to an event, her and I spent most of our time apart there. I kept noticing him around her though, I didn't think a whole lot of it because it was a work-related event and they both had responsibilities that could require their interaction. Later during the event I noticed him sitting by himself so I joined him. I was very friendly but kept getting a weird vibe, he just seemed off somehow. I tried to engage him in conversation about women (there were several attractive women at the event who kept checking us out) and he shut that down. Then an attractive friend came over to us with an almost certainly gay guy, I tried to spark conversation between them and again he shut it down. He seemed to have no interest in women or men, and he seemed to be generally uncomfortable and withdrawn in my presence. 
Then she came over and he brightened right up. She started talking to people next to us and he spent the whole time fixated on her. Of course alarms start going off in my head now. 
After the event she had to bring some work materials to a nearby location, he helped us carry some of it. When we got there the place was locked up and we had to wait. He waited with us. There were only two chairs, he said he didn't want to sit so her and I took both. When I came back from the bathroom he had taken my chair. I stood in front of him looking down expecting some kind of acknowledgement, the polite thing to do when someone walks away for a minute and comes back to find you've swiped their chair is offer it back to them. He wouldn't even look up at me, it started to get awkward until she jumped up and offered me her chair. She suggested he leave several times over the course of 30+ minutes while we waited, eventually he did. 

2) Last night we were joking back and forth about sexual things mostly making double entendres when she said "I just want variety". In context the variety she was referring to most likely meant people, as in she wants sex with other men. Once she said this it hung in the air in a very obvious way, she stopped joking entirely and her body language made it clear she didn't want to talk further. It very much came across like a Freudian slip.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Just flat out tell her you don't want her screwing this guy and, if she's going to, get a divorce first. And give him a call and tell him to keep his hands off your wife.


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## southernmagnolia (Apr 12, 2011)

Maybe you should ask yourself what is within you that makes you want to rescue someone who has such serious problems?


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## ren (Aug 1, 2011)

southernmagnolia said:


> Maybe you should ask yourself what is within you that makes you want to rescue someone who has such serious problems?


The curse of the Good Samaritan. 

General update: Things are going fairly well. Last week's therapy session lead to several productive discussions, and an argument or two. It feels like we are making progress. Our session this week is going to be pretty intense I imagine, I believe we will be focusing in on the "Four Horsemen".


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