# Should I stay or go?



## tamara24

Hello, This is my first time asking a question on this site. I have been married 17 years to my hubby and we have two kids.Both have had medical issues for last four years nonstop. I am disabled and I stay at home. During our marraige, my hubby has had issues with flirtation going to far and causing issues in our marraige. It did not help a month after we were married that I found out he had slept with a girl prior to our marraige and when I had asked him about it, he lied. He decided to come clean after we were married because he knew I would call off the wedding. My family life stunk in general and I wanted a stable relationship. We found out when I was expecting our first child that he had ADHD. He refused to do anything about it. After our son was born, he refused to help with anything. He couldn't stand to hear the baby crying,he would say he would watch him so I could get groceries and then he would find an excuse to not watch him. Our second child was a surprise as I wasn't supposed to be able to have any more kids. The issues with him not heping just got bigger and I jus got burned out. We moved out of state when he got a job offer thinking this would be a fresh start. The kids are 12 and 11 and he does not have any real connection with them. This bothers me as well as the fact that every birthday, anniversary,holiday, he started buying me gifts like a mop, a toilet seat, mr.clean,and thinking it was funny. I think it is totally disrespectful. We have a rough four years with the kids medical issues and I am totaly wiped dealing with all of it on my own. I know he works full time and can't make appts. but he has no active role dealing with it all. I am in charge of bills,the house, cleaning,washing clothes, the yard, and groceries and dealing with both kids issues. I can't get everything done and I am exhausted mentally and phisically. On our anniversary six months ago, I booked a three day stay at a resort and even though we had the kids we would have a great weekend together. On the anniversary, he raises up and said what did you get me? I ran to the closet and pulled out a present that I knew he had wanted but the mounting medical bills had not allowed for such luxuries. I had used money I saved from a temp job to pay for it. I was tickled to do it as we had not done anything like that for each other in forever. He was surprised! Then I asked where is my present? He starts stumbling and says I thought you could get a massage since you get a discount there...Needless to say, I was not happy. We spent the day with the kids and I don't know how to explain it but I just burst. All these years of crap and he walked around all day without a single look of regret for what he had done. When we got to the hotel I exploded and told him that I was leaving. I have gained weight and lost confidence in myself overthe years because of this disregard for my feelings and frankly,I thought the kids would be just as good without him. He convinced me to stay. Mother's Day rolls around and again, I get a card and an excuse he just couldn't get the right gift so he got nothing. I flipped, I am tired of feeling like I am nothing. So the next day, I told him, I wanted a divorce. He tells me that he wants to work at it and he realizes how much his ADHD has played a part in all this.He wants me to wait until he talksto someone. He started doing things with our son and wants me to pat him on the back for taking the garbage down to the curb. I feel overloaded and my needs have not been met in years. We don't have many friends because he blurts stuff out and my friends never want to do couple stuff with him. We get along but I don't like him anymore. I love him because he is the father of my kids.He took me on a date three weeks ago to dinner and a movie,and I just feel so angry at him that we have nothing to say. He is also doing things I asked him to do for months but I just don't care now. If he could do it now, why couldn't he do it when I asked him? Is my anger leading me to the divorce or my inability to forgive.I feel like I gave and he did not.Now he wants to do anything and I feel like letting him do it all and let him work at it but I know it takes two to work on things. Do I stick it out until he gets treatment for his ADHD and see if it progresses there or should I just go before I really start to hate him?


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## Susan2010

I don't know why you stayed for 17 years. That tells me you don't want to go. You ask on an internet forum. That also tell me you don't want to go. Not that there is anything wrong with talking on a forum. Maybe you just need support and someone to listen.

At any rate, I think you should read up on ADHD to compare the symptoms and typical behaviors with your husband's behaviors. And also talk with a doctor. It sounds to me like he gives a lot of excuses and attributes them all to his condition. So you need to find out if nothing more can be expected of him. I don't know if this is typical or not, but your doctor and research can tell you. I can vouch for his joking behavior. I have an adult nephew w/ ADHD who does the same at inopportune moments although I know he can tell the difference between joking and special occasions. For that matter, so does your husband, as he gave you a card after you complained, so clearly he knows the difference. But I don't know if his thoughtlessness is result of the disease or not. That he absolutely refuses to help out in any way does not at all sound like something to be attributed to the disease. But I could be wrong. My nephew is my only example and reference. He is always doing what he's asked to do, and sometimes he volunteers to help. It's just hard to keep him focused sometimes.


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## tamara24

Thanks Susan, I have stayed seventeen years because the first seven years were really good. When we had kids it seemed like everything started going nuts. At that point in my life I did not have the self esteem to walk out and handle two kids on my own. I thought the move would change a alot of things and it did at first. The kids are getting older now and I feel I have given him a chance to be close to his kids. Medical problems have also been a huge issue. Our son has Juvenille rhuematoid arthritis,autism,adhd and asthma.Daughter has adhd and a stomach issue that has caused eating disorder issues. I know his father was not a thoughtful person, and never bought or did anything special for his wife. But my husband used to do it so I know he can. It was not as if we had a terrible life, he just has no connection with the kids at all. They come to me for everything. After the last four years,I now know that I am a strong enough person to handle things, I have already done it alone.Now that he knows I am serious of walking out the door he starts doing things with our son and my son is responding to him. My daughter is even coming around. He says he realized how wrong he was but doesn't understand why I want to leave when he is making an effort and that I am only hurting the kids. I ahve come to realize that I have put my hubby and my kids before any of my needs and now I need some things. Everytime I have really wanted something, I talked myself out of it, the kids needed something, hubby needed something for his job. Now I feel like I need to come first for awhile, my kids are in a stable place as much as they can be and I am exhausted. I realize I stay home so I should do the housework and such but I don't think asking him to start dinner,or a load of laundry is out of the question. I have to tell him what to do with his kids. I tell him to take son on a father/son day and I have to tell him what to do. I know his family life sucked, but so did mine and yet I make the kids the priority and go out of my way to make sure I don't repeat the mistakes my parents made. Now he is trying but I don't have any feelings about it,I've gone numb. I am also tired. I went on the forum because I don't talk about personal problems with my friends. They all have really good marraiges and their biggest problems are who is picking their kids up in the afternoons and what they are doing that weekend as a family.I think I would blow them out of the water. A couple have guessed but I have never confirmed by saying anything. I just want to know if anybody else is dealing with a partner with ADHD and how they are handling it.


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## turnera

What you describe is very common. But it is not unfixable. You have fallen out of love with him because of typical male neglect (of the sort that says everything is fine). But that doesn't make him a bad person - just one uneducated on what a woman needs. 

So educate him. If you take steps to change things, you can once again learn to like and love him. Go to marriagebuilders.com and print out the Love Busters questionnaire, and fill it out and give it to him. Tell him that, to stay married, you need him to read it and make appropriate changes. Tell him that in a month or two - AFTER he has made those changes, you're going to fill out their Emotional Needs questionnaire and give it to him, so he will understand what your needs are and how he can meet them. You have to do the LB one first; trust me.

If you want, you can have him fill them out, too. Once you start focusing on what you CAN get out of your marriage, instead of what you're NOT getting, you will see a huge difference. It worked on me, and I'd been married 25 years before I did it. I went from hating him to seeing him as the guy I met 30 years earlier. Just from using the questionnaires.

btw, please break your posts into paragraphs. A lot of people won't read it when it's all one block like that.


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## turnera

I also want to add that a LOT of your issues are self-imposed. YOU made choices to do for everyone else, to sacrifice, to not say anything. He is not a mind reader. If you want something, say so. If you don't like something, say so. You have to teach men what you want. And you have to stop being a Giver 24/7 - it's not his fault you chose to be that way.


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## ellaf

I am so sorry that you are in a tough spot. Things certainly haven't been easy for you.

You need to take care of yourself. I know, easier said than done. But you can't be happy in your marriage if you're not happy with yourself. With two kids with special needs and a husband denying his own issue, you've taken their issues and made them you're problem. You need to realize your kids are going to have to be responsible for their own actions. Your husband as well. You can't control their choices. You can only be there for them when they fall. 

You should see someone for yourself. Get some therapy. I am not saying you're crazy or have mental issues, but you need a unbiased person to listen to you. Try marriage counseling.

If he refuses to get help for himself or go to counseling, you need to seriously think about leaving him. At least separate. Because clearly you're not happy. Stop holding on to what was. Focus on youre relationship NOW.
\
Good luck.


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## tamara24

Thanks for the advice, I will look at the info. I know I chose to do these things, I didn't realize how much I gave up until recently after some deep reflection. I didn't think I was unhappy until I just snapped and woke up one day and thought is this it?


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## turnera

It doesn't have to be 'it.' You can still have a great marriage with the man you married, if you make some changes.


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## tamara24

I purchased Love Busters and His Needs Her Needs last night and did the questionaire form. I gave it to him last night. He was too focused on the computer and adding programs to it to give it much attention. I fell asleep waiting for him. So then he wakes me up and says, it is too late to discuss this now so we will discus it when I get home Saturday. His inability to focus and prioritize is part of the issues.Oh well I shall see tonight. Again the kids and I are on our own.


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## tamara24

So I took hubby to doc today to discuss ADHD issues. The doc brings up depression and starts asking me questions. When I answered that he refuses to participate in one of the organizations that he joined three years ago and that he makes up an excuse every time there is a meeting, hubby starts to contradict me and says it is because he is too tired to go. For three years? I said no, it shows a pattern of not participating. He yells at me in front of doc, you don't know what I am thinking! Then he gets mad because I refuse to lead the conversation with the doc the rest of the meeting! We had lunch yesterday and discussed the questionaire from marraige builders and I talked about being disrespectful and inappropriate. I found him to be that way today. He told me that I hold on to things too long, I should forget the past. I don't think so, he still repeats it. He says he gets what he missed out on before and that I have to give him time and since the doc gave him meds for ADHD and for sleeping, I owe it to our family to stick through it and let the meds kick in.

I already have two kids on the same meds and they are not miracle workers and I still hold my kids responsible for their bad behavior and not using good judgements. He is an adult, shouldn't he be held at the same standard?


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## turnera

He should, but everything you have described - the way you two interact - makes me wonder WHY he should care? 

You are talking about the questionnaires as though you think you can make him change with them. They are for YOU, too. YOU need to know how YOU Love Bust HIM. YOU need to know what HIS Emotional Needs are so that you can meet those needs. Once you do that, he will WANT to reciprocate. But right now, you gripe, you embarrass him in front of the doctor, you stonewall him, you criticize him and call him disrespectful.

So, why should he care about changing? You are giving him no reason to.


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## tamara24

I had him do the questionaires as well and all that he gave me was my reactions to his behavior. I have encouraged him to go get this done for years. I am angry all the time. I am angry that he dumps everything on me. He can't deal with crisis situations so in the past two years I have had to deal hospitalizing our daughter and taking care of our son who is autistic and has rhuematois arthritis. At the time he was havng an attack so I was up all night with him, leaving in the am to take care of our daughter, home befor eson makes it home, premaking dinners for them so I can go back to the hospital.

During all that time, he never once helped with laundry,dishes,or anything! I was not always like this, but I feel our kids should come first. Especially when they are having medical issues.

I went to all therapy appts. and came home and reported what we were to do. He would come home and freak because shoes were in his way, and it would set the whole evening! 

After blowing up in October about his inability to help out with these issues, tantrums, yelling have decreased and he started having a relationship with his kids after 12 years. They now think he walks on water. He wasted so much time!

I know I need to change, but the anger from his neglect just boils my emotions. I was not yelling when the doc asked me if he doesn't participate in things. I was telling the truth. Not to embarrass him, but to get him help. He has no male friends except for MY friends husbands and he moved here 8 months prior to me getting here!

Do you think I am disrespectful and that I look for ways to embarrass him because I am so angry?


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## turnera

Most definitely.

And that's not a criticism of you. I lived it, too. Everything was my DH's fault. Why couldn't everyone see that? Everyone kept urging me to stick to Plan A (from marriagebuilders), and fix how I deal with HIM, not how HE deals with ME. I can't change him, after all. All I can do is be a more welcoming wife and ALSO speak my mind about what I need. If I am giving him what he needs and not Love Busting him, if he loves me, he should respond and he should listen to my unhappiness, and start doing for ME like I'm doing for HIM.

And, in the process, as I did that (grudgingly), it was like a veil lifted off my face. Instead of seeing the jerk I'd been so mad at the last few years, I started seeing the 'old' DH I had married 25 years ago. He was in there all along, just as unhappy as I was, not knowing what to do to get a wife who treated him decently. Once I took charge and fixed my side, he responded. And I started seeing that he wasn't such a bad guy.

That can happen for you, too, but nothing will change until you stop being the person he cringes to come home to. It has to start with one of you, and you are here learning. Best be you.


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## turnera

tamara24 said:


> I had him do the questionaires as well and all that he gave me was my reactions to his behavior.


Valuable information. You make him unhappy with how you treat him.



> I have encouraged him to go get this done for years.


What done?



> I am angry all the time. I am angry that he dumps everything on me. He can't deal with crisis situations so in the past two years I have had to deal hospitalizing our daughter and taking care of our son who is autistic and has rhuematois arthritis.


 Why can't he deal with crisis? Did you stop to wonder what it feels like for him to KNOW he's disappointing and not supporting his family in crisis and to know that you have to do what he should be doing? Whatever it was that causes him to back away, it must be powerfully frightening to him.



> During all that time, he never once helped with laundry,dishes,or anything!


Did you specifically ask him to? Give him specific tasks to take care of?



> I was not always like this, but I feel our kids should come first. Especially when they are having medical issues.


During a medical emergency, yes. Outside of an emergency, NO. It's like an airplane. You have to put on the adult masks first, or there will be no one to put on the kids' masks. You have to preserve and protect your marriage, your UNION to this man, in order to protect your kids. Because you invested so much into the kids, you took that from what you would have given to your husband. And I promise you he noticed. You could have sat down with him and worked out a plan that took care of the emergencies, the kids, the work, and the marriage, and he may have been more enthusiastic.



> He would come home and freak because shoes were in his way, and it would set the whole evening!


Because he was now an outsider to the life you were living with your kids.



> I know I need to change, but the anger from his neglect just boils my emotions. I was not yelling when the doc asked me if he doesn't participate in things. I was telling the truth. Not to embarrass him, but to get him help. He has no male friends except for MY friends husbands and he moved here 8 months prior to me getting here!


Everything you describe is what YOU don't like. What about what he likes? My DH would be happy never having a single friend except me and our daughter. I understand that. I wish he would go out and make friends, but I am not him. Just because I want it doesn't make it the only right way. You are telling him that he has to become like you and want what you want, for you to be happy. How is that fair? What if he told you he thought you having friends was wrong, that you should be just like him and NOT want friends, and so therefore you need to stop?

What I'm describing as a possible solution is empathy into what he is feeling and communication so you both know how the other feels, so you can decide if you want to stop LBing the other and meeting ENs. You've started down that path, keep going. Both of you do the questionnaires, and sit down and discuss it! Find solutions you can both live with, ok?


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## Brewster 59

turnera said:


> I also want to add that a LOT of your issues are self-imposed. YOU made choices to do for everyone else, to sacrifice, to not say anything. He is not a mind reader. If you want something, say so. If you don't like something, say so. You have to teach men what you want. And you have to stop being a Giver 24/7 - it's not his fault you chose to be that way.


Dang turnera, I know weve had some slight difference of opinion from time to time, but you really have some spot on advice. 

OP people with ADHD are absolutley terrible with picking up hints, a lot of men r terrible picking up hints, communication is very important in any relationship.

I actually think if possible your relationship should be worked on. Have you put any thought in what life will be like trying to raise 2 ADHD children as a single mom. Divorce will cause the children stress, it will cause both you and your spouse financial difficulty so while im not saying dont do it, think about it a lot, and only do it if there is no other way.


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## tamara24

I encourage him to try ADHD meds after we went to marraige counseling and the therapist and phsycologist both identified the ADHD. He refused to take meds because nothing was wrong in his opinion. In the twelve years, he has had three flirtatious relationships that created issues in our marraige and one emotional affair. His reason for this was that I didn't give him enough attention. I had a two year old and a newborn that had projectile vomiting and I slept upright in a chair for the first two years of her life so we could keep food in her. This was an ongoing medical condition that we continue to deal with now.

He can't deal with anything. He didn't help when the kids were babies because he couldn't tolerate the crying,later it was they were noisy, then our son was diagnosed with autism and t=rhuematoid arthritis and asthma. He couldn't even help taking care of him when he had an attack. He just draws away. He said his dad didn't do it and he doesn't know how. I say, you see your kid in need, you deal with it.

No, I did not ask him, I assumed when you have no underwear left, and dishes are flowing out of the sink, you just do it. Not watch T.V. and gripe that our son wouldn't go to bed on the dot. 

Yes, I see your point. I invited him into our lives and he would ruin it with the yelling. I feel the household is stressed enough with the special needs of the kids, we need to laugh. If he was going to carry on like that, we would do it without him.

The friends thing bothers me because he complained he has no male friends to talk to and know what is right and wrong. For instance. I have not missed a single birthday or holiday without making him feel special and appreciated for working as hard as he does at his job. When I get Mr. Clean and a mop and he thinks he was soo funny and that was the REAL gift. Yep, I didn't feel appreciated. His dad, was not a role model at all, but I have shown him how to love and he brings me a toilet seat. Pardon the pun can you see why I am angry when I keep getting dumped on?


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## Brewster 59

Yup, I totally see why you are angry. Life is going to be tough whatever road you take. I wish I had some easy answers for you.
I actually think youre wonder woman, most people would snap under those conditions. Do you ever get to go out without the kids and hubby to recharge?

Well if you decide D is the only answer you better have an exit plan including how to support your self and the kids, how you r going to get him to leave, try to save some money cuz you will need it. I dont think H will just give you his paycheck and be gone. With you not working what about medicial insurance? If you get D, H can carry the kids but what about you? All im saying is there is a lot to think about.


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## turnera

Look. I get that your marriage sucks. I could compare stories. But you have to decide if you're just quitting or staying.

If you're staying, you would benefit from listening to our advice on how to fix your marriage from YOUR side, because obviously nothing is working to make HIM change - not at THIS point. As I said, he has no reason to. 

Nor do you. But it is you here, making a decision. It is you who can effect a change and get new results. 

What do you want to do?


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## Brewster 59

You do realize that if you go with a D things arent going to be easy. The kids medical probs arent going to be better, you will have less resources and many of the same probs.

What do you have to lose giving tuneras advice a shot? Spend some time changing what you can control, which is yourself and see what changes occur. T is also right that you need to make a decision on which way to go as both will require time and effort and travel different directions.


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## tamara24

I think T has hit it on the head. I like the fact that she is just honest and not beating about the bush with it. I agree, but I am angry. I ordered the books and have skimmed through marraige builders, I have the Love Dare. I think that I have started looking at the stuff, mulling over what T said about no one asked me to do it, I put myself here. I guess I did, but I also felt I had no choice with two kids to raise and dad doesn't want any involvement in day to day parenting. It didn't help they were sick. No, I guess I should have asked him to do things and not think he should know, especially now that I have two kids with the same diagnosis and know that I have to point out the obvious. I guess I am not sure,how to get over the anger part. 

Also since he did not have a sexual affair, but emotional and flirtatious affairs and lots of internet porn looking. Why do I feel like he did cheat on me and when I ask what happened, he never remembers anything. That just leaves my imagination running more so than the entire affair stuff did. Does that make sense? 

Plus it seems with his job, primarily a male position, he can never make a friend with male coworkers but knows every female in the building. I am not saying he does anything with them but it is irritating. I don't care about how Jane's husband is a butt because he won't work and poor Jane has to work to support the kids. What about Tamara and her trying to take care of her kids with her husband being a butt? Ya know? 

I know I have to decide, I have brought it up to him that I want a D. He wants me to wait until his meds kick in and the fact since my insane blow up in October, he has started relationships with the kids that I should hang in there. But I feel alone and angry all the time. I know T,if that is how I am feeling, what am I doing for him? His answers to the first questionairre was when I am mad, do I punish him, his response yes, I pay more attention to the dogs and kids if he makes me mad by doing something stupid,like no present on mother's day cause he couldn't find me one specific item. I went to the computer, pulled it up in two seconds and it was less than ten minutes from the house. 

I might add he is extremely intelligent, so it is hard for me to wrap my brain around the fact he can be that stupid sometimes. Does that makes sense? Now that T has enlightened me, I keep thinking ADHD, what do I know?duh? It just is extremely hard......

Thanks,T and B


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## tamara24

B
I just recently within the last six months, go on Sundays for brunch with friends to get away when I have the money. More times than not.


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## turnera

Female friends? Are they married or divorced or divorcing?


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## Brewster 59

Ok, it seems that there are a lot of issues that at this point are all running together IMO, this makes managing this situation look insurmountable. I think H needs to look at managing the family resources and what I mean by this is you really need at least 1 day a week to defuse and unwind, I personally dont think your Oct blow up was wrong, personally I know I couldnt handle what you are dealing with and 1 day a week is not to much. 

Second of all I want you to know I am only a sounding board for you, I want you to be able to vent and thats ok, but I cant tell you which way to go, I can only help you to vent, and tell you what I see based on the info you give me. Which means I usually use words like "I think" or "you might" or "it seems" 

I would love T to chime in here but I really think you should have some time to recharge away from the kids and H.


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## turnera

I agree that you need to have time to unwind from family pressures. But you will have to be the person to tell your husband that, and you will have to monitor yourself so you don't 'fall in love' with the idea of freedom, as many women do. But again, it has to be equal for BOTH of you.


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## tamara24

The female friends are married, divorced, single. Doesn't seem to matter. I don't think he does anything with them, It just is aggrevating. He is a totally male dominated field.

I know you can not tell me what to do. I just need to talk to someone that doesn't know my family and can listen. I wouldn't let a stranger decide such an important decision.

I get time off when the kids go back to school during the day, but I am literally on call for my son because he legs are a huge issue and we never know when it will occur. I don't feel that it is a break even if I stay home and stare at the t.v. I am just exhausted. When they return from school, we have therapy, doc appts,or something at least twice a week about 40 minutes from home. Then homework,dinner,baths and bed. By they time they make it there, I am ready to go myself. Sometimes we are there four days a week.

I guess I feel if my spouse was running and had my disability then I would a least attempt dinner, throw in laundry, and clean up kitchen dishes after dinner. There are nights that I just leave the dishes cause I am too tired to deal with it and then he gets up and makes snide comments that the kitchen is a mess and how there is no room to make his lunch. I was getting up and making lunch but since October I REFUSE to make his lunch. 

Not everything is sooo bad, there was a time he could read my mind, we could talk for hours and he would leave me notes,bring flowers. I know he knows how to do it, but once we were married he just forgot how to do it. We dated three years before getting married and waited six for kids. Once the first was born, he just totally left me emotionally. I still gave him attention and the only time he responded was when sex was involved.

He got no satisfaction from putting toys together for Christmas, watching the kids squeal with excitement, or anything! He has missed out, and it wasn't because I was angry at that point T. This anger thing has just occured since October and has festered since.


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## Brewster 59

So my intent was never to say you are stupid, or that you would take my advice verbatim but rather to say this is where I am comming from. 

So if I asked you what bothered you more the fact he doesnt help around the house as much as you feel he should or the fact he pays attention to other women to much what would you say.

Again not saying you are stupid, but you do realize that two special needs kids take their toll on him to, right?


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## turnera

The point I'm trying to make is that he is likely just as fed up and unhappy as you are, for different reasons. Men want different things from marriages, and it's obvious he is not interested in pleasing you any more than you are him. THAT can be fixed, with communication and deliberation. You often have to show men how to be participants in running a house; their mother did it, they never gave it a second's thought. So sit down NICELY and talk to him about it, about how stressed out you are and what it would look like to have help. 

But at the same time, you have to give him a reason. You have to make sure HE is getting what he needs out of the marriage. What IS it that he needs?


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## tamara24

B
I am sorry sometimes things get lost in translation, I do. not think you were calling me stupid, I just didn't want you to think I am just reading the advice and going oh yea, I should do this without thinking abbout it first.

Hubby and I discussed some issues last night. I guess my huge issue is that he has/had no conection with the kids. When you said that the two special needs kids impact him too, well that is it. It doesn't seem to do that at all. Our daughter throws up all the time, it is the stomach issue.She is actually getting better with it now than before. She would throw up, be crying and I would be trying to comfort her, clean the mess and he would want to know what I was planning to do for dinner? HELLO! When our son was hospitalized cause he stopped breathing, I was up the entire night in ICU with our son, hubby was supposed to come after work and bring me clothes and stuff to change. He didn't call onet ime to check on our son. Then he shows up an hour late, and says he can't stay he is tired and never brought me clothes or anything. My mother stayed at the hospital the next night with me. It is not that he doesn't love the kids, he just doesn't show it. Now some of that has changed since my insane blow up because he knew I would leave. Now he is really enjoying his son and they do things together even if it is in the driveway. He has improved his relationship with his daughter as well.

When we talked last night he said that he understood he has not been there and has made huge mistakes in the past but he has developed a relationship with the kids and doesn't want that comprimised now. He explained that he would be willing to take over some house issues but they will not be done to my way of doing it.I don't mind that ut there are some things that have to be done MY way because it is part of the routine the kids know and if you deviate it becomes very chaotic in the house.He says I don't share my feelings or tell him anymore what I want or need. Well by the time I get done dealing with the kids and when I tell him this needs to get done, I need to do this or that, he forgets by the next day.I already repeat things with the kids so it gets old repeating everything to him. I feel he isn't listening. He says he listens but he has a million other things going on too.

He wants things to go back prior to kids. A healthy sex life, not being disturbed in the morning, full days of us going out and doing things. I don't think I can meet those needs. First, I am too tired for sex, we have kids ,who doesn't get disturbed in the mornings when your a parent. I can't go the entire day without taking care of the kids. I am on call even when I am out or when they are in school. We are in a state with no relatives and none of my friends have a life where they just aren't doing things to take my kids for a weekend and deal with their needs. They have kids of their own!

I am willing to consider that we do need to go out more and can do a date night or something like that. But it has to be planned so I can get everything ready for the kids.The other stuff I feel is unrealistic at this point in our lives.

I get it that he wants attention, but he has to help to get it. I feel like the kids and I live on our own island and he just visits. I want him to live on the island with us. He needs to pay attention to me and not know every other woman he works with problems. No my problems. I am angry at the fact that even though his actions has caused a lot of the issues, and caused me to withdraw that I am the one that has to change if I want the marraige to work. I know T, that I can't change him but again it feels like another thing dumped on me to do. 

I am also angry that it has taken him 12 years to get this. Nothing I said in October was anything he had not already heard in a nice voice. It took me literaly to the point of losing it and watching my head explode and having a phsyco raging fit to get him to hear me. If the only time he listens is when I explode, it isn't going to happen. I am not going around yelling and screaming in my house.

When I voice what stresses me he says yea, I can see that but he doesn't ask if can help and if he knows my stress must I spell it out too?


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## turnera

Unfortunately, you DO have to spell it out. And my life mirrors yours. I suffered for 28 years before I finally lost it and told him I was leaving if he didn't change. But even then, he didn't really know HOW to change, without me giving him explicit instructions. 

As for him not interacting, it is VERY common for men to draw back, especially when kids have issues. It's like a man not knowing how to hold a baby, but extended. 

They fear. They fear making a mistake, making something worse, looking dumb or inept, getting criticized (as in his statement that if he does housework it won't be good enough and you'll jump on him). He's in Woman's World, and he knows it. So he backs off. If you welcome him in without judgment or comment and accept what he offers, and show gratitude, it will embolden him to help more.

Wanting things back to before kids is probably the #1 issue with men. They marry a woman thinking constant companion, great sex all the time, and fun. Women marry a man and think sperm donor and provider, sometimes, companion. So guess which one gets what they want? You've GOT your kids, what do you need him for? And you sure as hell have no interest in giving him what HE wants. 

That's how he sees his life. 

If you want him to act differently, you have to give him a reason. You have to become his wife again, not just his kids' mother. I'll post a list I have of activities you can choose from, to try to start spending more time together. It doesn't take a whole weekend - even just an hour together here and there, being mates again, will go a long way to getting him wanting to invest more in the family. At marriagebuilders, they recommend husband and wife spend 15 hours a week together doing husband and wife stuff! You may not be able to reach that, but you really really need to try. Or he'll just give up and go find another wife, at some point.

My dad did that. My mom wouldn't quit her nursing job, so he left. And found a woman who would be his wife, mother, and playmate all in one. 

The bottom line is just that you have to be able to look at this from his side. He's just as frustrated and disappointed in what he got as you are. But you can make a difference, and GET what you want. If you just change tactics a little. Your anger and attitude are KEEPING you from getting what you want.

Here's my list:
Read a book together
Take turns picking out a movie to watch
Bring out the board games, at least once a week
Start a solitaire club with some neighbors or friends, play solitaire against each other one night a week or month
Start gardening together
Grow herbs/vegetables/fruits
Take walks
Start a sport together; take classes at a community college, such as racquetball or volleyball
Get bikes and start riding bikes together
Sign up for an MS 150 and train for the bike ride all year
Plan some day trips, start taking one every month
Try out one new restaurant every week, take turns choosing and surprising the other with it
Go to bookstore and get a book like “52 great invitations to sex” in which you both have 26 invitations for a special evening to invite the other one, and you set it up, give the other the invitation (included in book) and then put on the evening
Join an online gaming community together (but don’t get addicted!)
Buy a Wii or Guitar Hero and play together
Give each other foot rubs
Take massage class together and practice giving each other massages
Go back to school together
Get a pet, take it to obedience school and learn to train it (if applicable)
Join a neighborhood dinner club or other club
Volunteer together
Join a church or get more involved in your church
Take a cooking class together and take turns cooking for each other
Go to HGTV.com and pick out a project to do for your house together
Take free classes at Home Depot on how to fix something at your house
Start a business together
Organize a block party
Organize a family reunion
Start working with a financial planner or learn about stocks together
Take dancing lessons together; if you like it, start entering in competitions
Go online for your city and look up 'activities' and 'family' and maybe even 'free' if your city is big enough; subscribe to those websites and go there every month to look for upcoming activities you can all do together; you can find plays, music events, art things, sports things, picnics, etc.


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## tamara24

T,
This was what I needed. You got through. You should get paid. I wish nobody ever had to deal with this kind of stuff in our lives. I would not give my kids up for anything, ut if I knew then what I know now, I would have done a few things differently. 

I am waiting on the books to arrive and he agreed to read them. We can't do it together as I read lightening speed and he is a turtle reader and we drive each other nuts. I figured he could start one, me the other and I can read his while he is at work after I finish mine.

We will have to make the time and budget the money to do a few things. We do a lot of free things and we have been working on the house nonstop because our son is allergic to carpet crud, so now we have laminate floors in the entire house.I guess it boils down to comitting to do these things and not let other things get in the way.

Since you stated my life mirrors yours, how did you get over the affairs and other women issues?His dad cheated on his mom and had my hubby(as a child) hide things so his mother wouldn't know. His mom was blind since birth so things like the telephone bill and credit card bills. Yes, what a wonderful thing to teach your kid. He knows this is wrong but he doesn't know better. My father cheated on my mother so I am always on the look out of any signs. The thing is that I know he comes home right after work, I always know where he is but I also know what he has done. DOes that make sense? 

I want to be close to him but not if it is going to be like this. I want 100 percent. I want to trust him, love him and know him.Not having to go through my day waiting to see what mood he is going to be in when he walks in the door, or if he is even going to say hello.I want to have a relationship with somone who will treat me and the kids well. I am not talking physical items, but emotional ones.


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## turnera

Once he feels loved by you, he will return the love. 

I fought for two years over at marriagebuilders to do what I'm telling you to do. Why should I? HE was the one messing up the marriage! I just wanted people to agree with me.

Instead, they calmly and patiently kept doing what I am doing with you - pointing out that YOU are just as responsible for the state of your marriage as he is because he is right there with you, experiencing _something_. If it's negative, he will withdraw. If it's loving and wonderful, he will expand and give.

The #1 thing to do is try to see what he is seeing. Measure every single sentence you say. How does it sound, coming out of your mouth, from HIS side? 

I told them once that I yelled back when my H yelled, and they chewed me out! I had no right yelling. But HE yelled. So? Does that mean you have to lower yourself to that level? Stop yelling. So I did. And he changed. 

It's all reciprocal. 

We haven't had affair/women issues. In fact, he doesn't want to do anything but be with me and DD19. It's smothering. So I can't help there. The best thing I can think to say is to explain to him (not judge him) how it feels to YOU when you are cheated on; help HIM see how YOU feel. And then leave it; he knows he hurts you; let him choose.

Are you ordering His Needs Her Needs? Read that first, and then do the Love Buster questionnaire from MB. That's what you need to do first - learn and eliminate your LBs of your husband, and he yours. The rest will fall into place.


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## tamara24

Yes, I ordered the books but they have not arrived yet. 

We went to dinner last night and he said he was feeling more in control than he has in a while. That could be a combination of the new meds and getting sleep. He has not slept so well in awhile.

After dinner, which was nice. He thinks that since dnner went well, then that should lead to sex. Dinner wasn't that good! The thing is I know that it his way of feeling better about stuff but I feel totally disconnected.

I tried to be nice and make conversation. I mentioned that I had found a site that I was using to help me get a better prospective and the first thing he asks was what my sign in name was. Whoa! I am not giving that out to him as I feel he would try to find the site and look me up. I have mentioned marraige builders so I think he will look to that. I told him that I did not feel comfortable stating the name as I want time to reflect and feel like I can say what needs to be said to get honest opinions.


I could tell that he was not happy with that. Then we get home and he wants to cuddle. I feel it to be uncomfortable. I tried to be nice and then he starts questions, don't you feel better, doesn't it make you feel safe and secure, aren't you happier? Well no, not really. Just because we have a nice dinner does not mean all the probs are solved. I feel this is his need for everything to be done and fixed or purchased right away. This isn't going to be a quick fix this time. I am not sure I even want to stay. I am at the point of we need to leave but I always wanted the one partner for life so shouldn't I attempt it one last time before starting the exit plan?


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## turnera

Just don't forget that men express love through SF. If you don't reciprocate, it means to him that you don't love him. It's fine to not be in the mood here or there, but to totally turn him away because your marriage is not perfect is a sure way to make him give up.


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## tamara24

Ok so we have discussed all week what issues are bothering me and him. He says he understands and the med is slightly kicking in and he feels better than he has in a long time.

Last night we go to dinner as a family and he mentions that when we return he needs to run next door and borrow something from the neighbor. It should take a couple of minutes. I take the kids inside and an hour later, he still is not home. AFter another 30 minutes, I get the kids in bed, take dogs out, and get ready for bed. He shows up two hours after we returned home. 

He comes in and starts same old story, I didn't notice the time.etc.. I said stop, we talked all week and this is an issue, you had told the me when we got home, we would watch a movie and then you show up two hours later. It is not respectful to my feelings nor leave me with getting kids ready and everything else. Well he states we were talking about doing this and that and I never realized the time but I did state I needed to leave four times. I talked never raising my voice and stated, it is not the fact you wanted to go and talk or went over there. You stated you were going to be a couple of minutes and we would watch a movie together. You had your phone, you could have called and said hey, it is taking a little longer than I thought or , I will be home in a little bit. You did neither. Two hours later, you show up, you did not make me a priority. He stated he understood, but did not see this as big deal. All he needed to do was to communicate!Am I wrong in my thinking, because he was like you knew where I was at....


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## Susan2010

tamara24, I know you feel tired and beaten. And I know you don't feel you owe your husband anything because of the years he was emotionally absent. The only I keep hoping you would do is say you ever asked him to help with things, but you don't come back to say that. You just keep telling us he didn't. I think you are perfectly willing to blame it all on his condition, so it's hard to accept that you contributed anything. I know you're angry and are ready to walk out the door. But before you do, I'd like you to not only give him a chance, but give yourself and chance also. It may be that you have to direct his every move. Good grief, I know how sickening that can be. But I don't really see where you have all that terrible a guy in your husband. There are LOTS of people on this board complaining about the exact same things and much, much worse from their spouse, who have no behavioral conditions to attribute. So, if it takes always having to direct him on specifics, then it's not all that great a task. And think of the advantage for you. When you want some peace and quiet and everyone out of the house, all you have to do plan a picnic for hubby and the kids. Planning those for the family regularly is a good idea too. But think also of getting some things done around the house. Look at all the help you have now, and all you have to do is ask and be as nice to hubby as you wish him to be to you.

I don't see that you did anything so awful in the doctor's office. You had to answer the doc and tell him how your husband has pretty much checked out of life. I don't have any idea what or how else you could have done that. You need help, and the doctor is the best person to tell and for that matter, he's the best person to complain to, even if it does embarrass hubby. I commend you for staying for so long and perfectly understand how exhausted you are. But I think you have a great advantage now. You have your husband on *willing* mode, and can keep that in your favor.


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## Susan2010

tamara24 said:


> Ok so we have discussed all week what issues are bothering me and him. He says he understands and the med is slightly kicking in and he feels better than he has in a long time.
> 
> Last night we go to dinner as a family and he mentions that when we return he needs to run next door and borrow something from the neighbor. It should take a couple of minutes. I take the kids inside and an hour later, he still is not home. AFter another 30 minutes, I get the kids in bed, take dogs out, and get ready for bed. He shows up two hours after we returned home.
> 
> He comes in and starts same old story, I didn't notice the time.etc.. I said stop, we talked all week and this is an issue, you had told the me when we got home, we would watch a movie and then you show up two hours later. It is not respectful to my feelings nor leave me with getting kids ready and everything else. Well he states we were talking about doing this and that and I never realized the time but I did state I needed to leave four times. I talked never raising my voice and stated, it is not the fact you wanted to go and talk or went over there. You stated you were going to be a couple of minutes and we would watch a movie together. You had your phone, you could have called and said hey, it is taking a little longer than I thought or , I will be home in a little bit. You did neither. Two hours later, you show up, you did not make me a priority. He stated he understood, but did not see this as big deal. All he needed to do was to communicate!Am I wrong in my thinking, because he was like you knew where I was at....


But isn't that part of his ADHD condition? Though I didn't say anything before, I have been wondering if you require of him as you would a person w/o ADHD. And that's what I tried to say in my last post - you will have to direct him. What you needed to do was go next door and ask him to come home. You're making me think that either you are expecting too much or you don't know how the condition goes, but I thought you did, especially with two children with the same condition. You simply cannot fault him for this one. 

Again, I know you're tired. And again, I know it's pain in the butt to have to lead a grown person by the hand. But in a lot of instances, that is what you have to do. Now, if you leave, I honestly couldn't blame you. However, you have been married to this man for this long. I just don't see the point. And, I don't see you leaving for reasons that are or can be attributed to his condition. You already know about it.


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## tamara24

Thank you Susan,
I have asked repeatedly for help. I have come home and sat down and explained what the therapist wanted us to do with the kids.Everything gets followed and then he comes home from work and does the exact oposite. I have had dinner waiting as his time to come home from wrk was predictable, and I find out that he is at the neighbors talking.Dinner is always ready within fifteen minutes of him hitting the door as we keep a tight schedule when the kids are in school.

I have asked and even sent him with his son on events. I volunteered as the lead boy scout leader for two years and then the third year, I asked him to be coleader. I planned the meetings, got all the stuff and then at the meetings, he took all the credit after I directed the entire thing. The relationship between the kids has improved since October because I told him that I would no longer, lie or cover up with his kids, or other family members for his lacking relationship with them.

I have asked if your going to be late, want to go out or whatever, I ask that you call and let me know. His brother just moved in the area and they have got along famously. Sometimes his brother stops by and asks him to go out (not very often) so I ask that if he chooses to go out he give me some notice as it will give me a break fixing a meal as sometimes the kids and I will eat something he dislikes on those nights. He will call me as he is going out the door, and asks permission. This irritates me to no end. I know his brother is standing there so I can't say anything like, did I not ask you to call me ahead of time? Then I am a b---. so I just say go. Keep in mnd I would say go anyway, just give me notice.

Our kids have programs at school, he never can attend, but when he wants to do something, he figures out how to get off work.

He is a very hard worker. I do love him. I am tired of giving him a few months and then things go right back. I don't yell at him in front of friends , or even the kids yet I am sure they feel the tension. 

He has not had the kids alone for a day in their entire lives and when he does, I get texts from both kids, he is yelling, or he refuses to listen to them. I had my dream job that I worked a couple of days a week. I asked that if I make dinner prior to leaving that you will clean up. I would make dinner, get whatever I needed out for the kids the next day so I had time to take them to doc appts., do laundry, and house cleaning. I would get texts from him aout the kids were not in bed on time, he is tired of the crap. I would get home to find dishes still on stove, dishwasher full,and God forbid he take the laundry out of the dryer. My daughter has extreme reactions to insect bites to the point that she has an epi pen. I would get texts to please come to her room cause she thought she saw a spider but he won't let her come in our bed or sleep on the couch and she is scared. He says I feed into the drama. But I was the one that dealt with the first allergic reaction when she had to go to the hospital so I know that scared her and she has medical issues too, so what would it hurt to go check her room out, or let her sleep in study in the other bed. I don't believe in causing her to be insecure. 

It got to the point that with my disability, I got sick after two months of work so I took a month off. When I returned, I had been back a month running all over and I got pnuemonia that lasted three months. You would think that would open his eyes. I drove myself to all doc appts. still fixed dinner, and at one point, I asked him to go to the grocery store and pick up a ready made chicken as I was not up to cooking and at 7:00, I finally put my shoes on to go myself as the kids were starved and he says where are you going? I said to the store! He says I said I would go, I am tired too, and I have a cold. WHAT??? 

These things fuel the anger. If love was the only thing involved, this would be a no brainer. But I told him I am tired and burned out. I am mentally gone. I have to leave notes on what I am doing the next day or I forget. I am thinking the ADHD is contagious! For the last week, I have to remind him to take the meds like the kids. He decided not to take the sleeping pill,yet he was told to take it to keep a sleep pattern going.

Thank you for feeling the frustration, no he isn't a BAD guy, but after 17 years, I need a break. If he wasn't so extremely smart and has empathy for everyone else, then maybe I could see it, but I feel like the last thing he considers.


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## Susan2010

Tamara, I'm a little confused. You say the first 7 years were great but once the children arrived, everything went downhill. Did he suddenly become a different person? Or is it that you became overwhelmed with two kids with various illnesses? This is what I'm thinking: Before kids, you had fewer expectations of him because there was so much less for you to do. You could handle it. Life was relatively simple. Then after the kids, nothing was simple anymore but probably downright chaotic. Not only did you have a lot to deal with physically and mentally, but you began to realize you don't have the emotional support you needed either. So think back before the kids. Did you have, need, or expect help around the house? Did you have pressures in life to lean on him and find him vacant? 

I understand the reasons you are here and feeling so frustrated. And like I said, I can understand you feeling you have to leave. All I hope is that you come to the realization that 1) you expect more than he is able to give. For example, you want him to make you a priority. As I alluded to before, I am not familiar with a person with ADHD Syndrome having any priorities. They are simply incapable, especially if the ideas or tasks are not of their own invention. And even then, it is extremely difficult for them to stick to a task or carry an idea through to fruition. They usually have several things going at once, never to actually complete any of them. Your husband changes his mind nearly by the moment. This is the reason they are prescribed Ritalin and other such medication - to help them focus and follow through.

What I noticed with my adult nephew is I cannot give him a task and then a few minutes later say "do such and such also." If it were me, I would finish what I was told to do and then do the other afterward. But with my nephew, I literally have to say "and when you finish that, do such and such." I have to be very specific and still prevent him from dropping the first task unfinished. There are so few occasions I am around him, so I can only imagine what you go through on a daily basis for all these years. Were your husband not attention deficit and hyperactive, I would consider him very thoughtless and inconsiderate. But I know I cannot apply such adjectives in his case. I can only empathize and sympathize with you.

2) You have three people in your life who are eligible for disability benefits. You can receive money from the government for both your children and your husband. Are you doing that? The money can be used as relief to help you out and to get some much-needed rest. As far as I know, it takes quite a while to kick in, probably several months. But then you receive a one-lump-sum retroactive payment from the time of your application, and then the monthly payments begin. The money can help if you decide to leave or stay. If you stay, you can use to make up where your husband is lacking. If you need a babysitter, if you need someone to take the kids to school or pick them up, or whatever. Taxi companies have contracts with the state for this purpose, and the state offers personal bus service. You could use the money to hire someone a few times a week for cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc. Give yourself a break so you are able to enjoy life a little more and not be so task driven and crisis-oriented. Look at the possibilities of not having to expect so much of your husband when you know he isn't really going to be there for you. You have the same needs as any other woman. Just focus on that, and the two of you will be able to spend more quality time together. His failure to live up to your expectations is destroying you from the inside out. You love him, so make it possible to love him without the causes and criteria that frustrate and anger you.


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## tamara24

Thank you again Susan.

First, when were first married, he was a wonderful attentive person. I realize as we get older in the marraige some of these things go by the wayside. You are right, we were right out of college, I had three jobs, he had two. When we tried having children, I cut back to the one job(the main job). I am an avid cook so I always loved making meals and such. baking was my hobbby.

When I was pregnant with my son, he was very excited. When my son was born, the doc messed up my spine during spinal tap, I lost spinal fluid and suffered spinal headaches. It took three blood patches to fix it. They dismissed me too soon and sent me home with a newborn and I could barely raise my head. This was the first indication that I was on my own. He would get mad the baby cried and woke him,refused to get up and change the baby or get the bottle warm. Even knowing my condition. I realize that he was freaked by the baby, but where was my spouse that supported me for seven years? When we found out I had gotten pregnant again, I was totally suprised. Yes, I was well overwhelmed with two kids and a husband that slept in while I dealt with a special needs baby and toddler. 

Yes, my expectations, did change. I expected him to be a dad. I expected him to help out. He saw me struggling and he just stood there. The thing that got me was that when his family came to visit, he would get down and play with our son,fix a bottle while I made dinner, they thought he was just the perfect dad. Then as soon as they left, he would hand the kids over like he had borrowed them.

We did go to counseling, that was when he was diagnosed ADHD. Then I find out he was diagnosed as a kid. He refused to go back or take meds.

Now he is only trying because I am soo past the breaking point. Yes, I did expect more of him when the needs of the kids got bigger and bigger. I expected him to do it because he was my spouse and saw I was struggling. He would say o.k. then he never followed through with anything. His excuses were he didn't know how to do things, his family never showed love....etc. Ok ,well here I am, showing you love,telling you that I need help and you take a nap.

Yes, the kids are older so it helps they are more self sufficient. But I am sooo tired and burned out. I tried the disability route, I am disabled, but the kids are not considered disabled because the gov. said we made too much money. By the time I buy their meds, The dietary needs and such and copays for doc visits, therapy and such, my check is gone. 

I am trying, I just feel exhausted all the time. When I am dealing with a need of one of the kids, I do expect him to help. Even spelling it out. It works for a couple, months or weeks and then it just goes back. I don't like being the bad person all the time either. I was pretty easy going and now I think my funny bone even left me. I am so serious about everything. One of us had to be the adult.


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## Wisp

How long are you going to be able to carry on for before you crack, or collapse from the stress – seriously think of separation even if it is on medical grounds. At least then you can only look after the kids and yourself.


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## Susan2010

tamara24 said:


> the gov. said we made too much money.


I'm not talking about social services or welfare or anything like that. I'm saying SSI (Social Security Insurance) for diseases and disabilities. If you were denied for whatever reason, you were supposed to apply again. People like yourself (it is often people with back injuries) are often denied. They usually end up appealing for years or hiring a lawyer, so I am very surprised if you had no problems. However, a person (especially children) diagnosed with ADHD, Autism, OCD, or any of the physical/mental/behavioral disabilities and diseases (not anything like measles or chicken pox or things like that) are usually approved right away. That includes addictions too, like alcoholism and drug abuse. Just go and apply again. In fact, don't re-apply but make an appeal. I have never heard of any of this having to do with family income. The money is not meant to supplement income. It is meant to take care of the needs required by the disease or disability. From my understanding, you were woefully misinformed. Still, it is their practice to turn people down in a lot of instances, but they know they can't get away with it.

It often takes 4-6 months to begin, but you get the back pay in a lump sum. Depending if the amount is incredible, they issue them in 2-3 divided checks. If it has been years since you first applied, I don't know how they handle that. I don't know if they are going to send you 5, 7, 10 years of back money or not. But please, go and make your appeal. If still the kids are not approved, then go talk to an attorney. There are lawyers who specialize in getting people their disability approved. If any one child receives SSI for ADHD (especially both your children having multiple illnesses), then ALL children w/ ADHD are equally eligible.

Just to be specific to ensure you receive everything the children have coming to them, you don't want to re-apply. I'm sure you need to appeal the original rejection. That way, you get the consideration from the initial application. If you apply a second time, then that might start the process from this second application and not the first one. 

****************************************

Please rest assured I understand. I was trying to ease your mind a little because I felt you were being blamed needlessly. What Turnera and others were suggesting is accurate but normally applies to ordinary circumstances. I sensed they perhaps didn't realize the distinction of living with a husband w/ ADHD. The more information you offer, the more I am convinced of my original statement, in that he attributes more to his condition as an excuse.

At the moment, I still would like to reiterate what I said before about you having a willing husband and you could use that to your advantage. However, I know you mentioned how it usually only lasts a short while. 

But listen, if you are at your rope's end, then please do get yourself away. There is only so much a person can take, and this is not about him needing you for the sake of his condition. This is all about you and what you need. Stress and exhaustion are not jokes and nothing to mess around with. Before you wake up and find yourself in the hospital, do whatever you have to do. I really wish you well, Tamara, and please let us know how SSI works out this second time around, won't you please?


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## tamara24

Susan,
Thanks for the info. The children get a check from me because of my disablity. When I applied, they took our income info and said our son does not meet the criteria because of our income.I will check into it more.

Hubby is all over me, dripping sweet. I know he thinks this is what I need, but I want it without demanding it. I need him to be more supportive not clingy. 

I can honestly see the some change since he started meds last week and his sleeping has changed since I insisted he take the other med. He went grocery shopping with me on Saturday. I ususally don't shop then but it was a weekend sale andI wanted to stock up on things. He volunteered going with me and then took me for lunch afterward. 

I am not talking problems in the marraige with him right now. I am trying to gain some sanity and relax a little bit before I make a huge decision. My gut says go, but I want to be able to make a decision without letting my anger rule the final choice.

I just want to hear if I am totally overreacting or if I have valid issues. I know there are spouses out there that don't do birthdays, anniversaries and such. I know there are spouses that don't get involved with household runnings and such. Am I just asking for something that is unrealistic?


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## Susan2010

tamara24 said:


> I am not talking problems in the marraige with him right now. I am trying to gain some sanity and relax a little bit before I make a huge decision. My gut says go, but I want to be able to make a decision without letting my anger rule the final choice.


That is very smart.



tamara24 said:


> I just want to hear if I am totally overreacting or if I have valid issues. I know there are spouses out there that don't do birthdays, anniversaries and such. I know there are spouses that don't get involved with household runnings and such. Am I just asking for something that is unrealistic?


I think your concerns are valid and don't believe you are overreacting. I do want you to be certain your expectations are fair and just. If you expect more than is within his ability, then it isn't fair of you. And the adjustment to that might be a simple matter of telling him what you want for your birthday/anniversary/Christmas/Valentine's Day, etc. Him obliging you helps you to be certain you don't expect too much of his memory and his task-less orientation, while getting what you want in the process. You don't end up disappointed and your feelings hurt that way. I realize this removes the element of surprise and also robs you of the warms feelings you get from having a considerate husband. But, you already know that all not all husbands are considerate in that way; it would be nice if they were. And, it's a workable compromise between what Turnera was saying and what I was saying - that you begin the change with yourself, while still getting what you want but not automatically expecting him. 

Another example is when I asserted that you should have gone next door to ask him to come home. Instead of ending up angry that he didn't follow through with his plan and feeling you are not his priority, you would have had your husband home and watching the movie together. Again, it would have been nice had he done what he said he was going to do. But knowing your ADHD husband, the plan changed. It didn't change because he does not care and not because you are not important to him, but because that is the way his mind works in being unable to prioritize. The first task was going to be watching the movie together, but that gave way to the second task. The second task was going next door for a few minutes, but that plan gave way to the third task. The third was him getting caught up in whatever was going on while he was there. Had you knocked on the neighbor's door, that third task would have fallen away for the sake of this fourth one, which is coming home for the movie as you are requesting.

See where I'm going? In both these two examples, you change yourself to accept you have to specifically direct your ADHD husband and get everything you want in the process. 

Now here's the REALLY hard part. Very simply, this is not how women are wired. Having to ask for every bit of consideration; having to direct the show at all times; not being able to lean on and depend on hubby for support - these are the types of things that kill our sex drive, disappoint us, and we end up feeling "I can be lonely all by myself." Just like you feel you can do this alone because you have BEEN doing it alone. But, don't close the door to your own conciliation by shutting him down. Now that he's being "dripping sweet" and willing to please, don't close your heart because it isn't exactly what you need at the time. Remember, he has to get what he needs too, and it is fortifying to know you have a loving and attentive husband who desires you sexually and wants to be affectionate aside from sex. Give him what he wants, and you keep his cooperation and get what you want and the help you need more often.

If that balance is acceptable to you, then just ride this wave to see where it goes and see how you feel later. You will likely have to bring him back in line from time to time, and don't let him get away with making excuses, but look at how much stress and pressure are relieved from doing everything all by yourself. And, you aren't disappointed so often either.

I neglected in past responses to commend you for being such a strong woman. I get a lump in my throat just knowing how well you bore your burdens and came to this point exhausted but determined. Bravo to you, my lady.


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## tamara24

Thank you,Susan,
I am afraid you have me feeling like a myrtar. I am nothing like that. I am frayed all the way around.

The reason for not going next door is partially my doing. hubby and his brother have issues with woman andreally no respect for their mother. Although I know why,it seems to me that going over there when he is visiting his buddy would make me the *****. Mind you, the hubby knows better to even call me names, any aggressiveness can be related back to his mother. I do not want him to even put me in the same catagory as that woman. Mind you, I am not. A doormat, but I try to address issues at home because his mom would publicly embarrass his dad and the entire family to make herself feel good.

I try to handle things so he does not feel bad in front of people. Plus we are at that stage where I can throw the look and he knows that I am not happy with whatever occured. 

I do appreciate the advice as I do want to stay on track and be able to make a decision that will right for all of us. Right now, I am too fried to think carefully and know what I am willing too accept anymore as far as his behavior. Goes. I am glad that his relationship with the kids have gotten somewhat better. I just wish they could have seen him through my eyes before all of this. I know I can't tolerate the miscommunications, the affairs and not being a partner(even if we have to make concessions with the ADHD)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

O.K., we are three weeks into him starting the meds and talking about things that need to change. I stated everything without being rude or angry. I explained how he made me feel and why I feel seperating is the best thing for the family.

Hubby has now decided that he is going into depression for not being there over the last twelve years. I need to give him time to deal with his emotions as he figures out how to deal with his guilt.WHATTTTT??????

I feel that I have given him twelve years to figure it out.He has started taking me for dinner and today I got flowers. But I also confront him that I want to know what he did with these other women since he never remembers anything. I found out that I knew a mutual friend of the woman he had an emotional affair with before we moved. I asked her if she knew wether they had slept together and she said no, but she was not aware he was married right away and that they had met after I made him end any conversations with her and they had shared a good bye kiss. I tell hubby of what I know and he insists they never kissed or met afterward. Well, which is it, you don't remember or you didn't do it?

I just think he has to be totally honest and own up to his wrong doings before I can go any further. The meds are kicking in but yet now I have to remind the third child to take it. I do not want to be his mom. 

I guess I feel like for once, it is about me. How I am feeling and what I want to do and he is turning this into all about him. His doctor ordered blood work three weeks ago and he still has not done anything and he goes back next week. I am NOT going with him this time to be yelled at. Am I being unreasonable?


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## Susan2010

Have your husband read this page.
And you read this page.

They are pages from a 4-part serious of coping and healing after infidelity. I realize your husband did not have an affair (or that he is denying it), but emotional affairs are affairs nonetheless and just as damaging. He needs to know - see in writing - that he's supposed to come clean to you, confess everything, and answer all of your questions honestly. And you need to learn how to deal with the resentment.



tamara24 said:


> Hubby has now decided that he is going into depression for not being there over the last twelve years. I need to give him time to deal with his emotions as he figures out how to deal with his guilt.WHATTTTT??????


He is still making excuses, and he is running out of them. He's frightened by the thought of separating, so he came up with whatever he could. Yes I know, it made no sense.



tamara24 said:


> I explained how he made me feel and why I feel seperating is the best thing for the family.


and.......



tamara24 said:


> I feel that I have given him twelve years to figure it out.


and.......



tamara24 said:


> I do not want to be his mom.


and.......



tamara24 said:


> I guess I feel like for once, it is about me.


It sounds like you know what you need to do, but I'm confused by the last statement. Does that have to do with your decision to separate or does it mean you need him to understand it is about you? I'm confused that if you have decided to leave, then what does the rest matter? Are you trying to prepare him, or are you looking for his approval and agreement?


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## turnera

Yes, you can give someone time for meds to kick in. However, you can also set high goals for him to achieve. Boundaries. Let him know what YOU need in YOUR life, and if he can't meet that, he leaves.


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## tamara24

I agreed that we could work on things and would wait until his meds have started before making a final decision.

I still love my husband as we share a good bond, but anger has taken over because of bad decisions in the past and his lack of being involved with our family.

I questioned him on things that have happened in the past. If you love me, then how did you let me deal with this situation on my own and not want to help? How do you justify watching me suffer through this? He answers, I was imature and selfish but I now realize what I have done and want to make it up. But you won't tell me what to do.

I can't tell him what to do. I feel like I don't know what he can do to make up for the hurtful stuff. For instance, when I was three months pregnant with our daughter, I woke up and was terribly sick. I started throwing up and having terrible cramps. I thought I was losing the baby. He told me I was being a big baby and I had the flu. I had to call my parents to come get our son because he had woken up and I couldn't deal with him at that point. Later after being taken to my o.b. I had gall stones and was sent to the hospital. Later that evening they rushed me into surgery because my appendix was about to rupture. I went into preterm labor from that time on and had to deal with an 18 month old. He refused to help around the house, couldn't care for our son, and slept in on his days off. THis was the start of the decline. As the kids got older, things eased up as they could help. But when both got seriously ill within a year of each other, he was not there again.

When I ask him why, he just says that he sees this now. He wants to be there. He wants to make up for it. I don't think you can make up for that. Granted it was years ago, but the anger has festered like a big rolling ball.

I do believe the adhd played a big part in this, but now I am just at a point where I have given to everybody but me. When I say it is about me, this is what I mean. It is time that my needs get addressed, that I can get fullfillment in my life. I don't want to be in a bad marraige, and just suffer through it. I want a partner. If he can't be that then I want to go find someone that can. I have gone too long without a partner in my life.


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## turnera

Some men just take longer to mature than others. The fact is, that's the kind of guy you got stuck with. But being angry about his shortcomings is not a good enough reason to give up on your family and tear your kids' lives apart.

You BOTH have a lot of work to do to fix your marriage. We can help you with that, but you have to get past your resentment first.


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## Susan2010

I have a different view of what Turnera stated. Being angry about his shortcomings definitely IS reason to leave. But being angry about the past certainly is not. You have to get over that and get over the resentment....or don't and move on.

There is no way he can possibly make up for the past. As Kipling said, time is unforgiving. We don't get it back to do over again. All we have is this day forward. You have to remain determined to have the marriage and partner that you want. If his shortcomings are such that he cannot be the husband you need him to be, then deciding to leave is an option. But, base your decision as of today, not yesterday.

You also have to determine exactly who you are angry with. Whatever the terrible circumstances of the marriage, I am always inclined to blame the wife. Why? Because you put up with it. You tolerated and actually ALLOWED what you now consider his mistreatment of you. Women are mistreated every day. There is domestic violence, where they get beaten for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. There is verbal, mental, emotional abuse - all kinds of mistreatment and disrespect. None (or very little) would occur a second time, much less become commonplace, if they didn't sit there taking it. What you are experiencing right now is you finally realizing you don't want anymore of his absenteeism, un-involvement, and mistreatment. So what is happening? He is promising and trying to straighten up. Had you put your foot down long ago; had you refused long ago to live this way; had you left him back then, he would have responded then the same way he is responding now. But you didn't. You sat there taking it time after time. So, who are you angry with? Just like any child, adults also will push their limits and do whatever they are permitted to get away with. You never taught him how to treat you. Now you want to teach him. Better late than never, but you cannot fault him for the past. You are as much to blame if not more. The best thing to do is exactly what you are doing - setting your standards and boundaries as of today, and then look to the future.


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## turnera

Very very true.


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## tamara24

Susan, you are correct. I was not strong enough to think I could do this on my own. Now after all the stuff with the kids,I know I can do it alone. I asked repeatedly for him,no I begged him to realize what he was missing with me and the kids. 

He finally told me that each time I lectured him, he just felt I was like his dad and just tuned me out. I am md because he was always told he was awful. I never said he was awful but asked him to stop the bad behavior and get involved with the kids. I wanted him to experience a true loving family. My kids know that when something is wrong to come get mom. They never go to him because he yelled. Some of this has stopped with his realization that I am done with this nonsense.

I feel I have wasted a lot of time hoping he would come around.I have denied myself to make him happy and got nothing in return. My kids are the best thing I have ever done,but I wanted to share them with my hubby,not raise them on my own. Now I am lookikng at everything that has happened and thinking,this is it? Seriously? Cause this really sucks. 

I know in my head,I need to get over it and either move on or work on things.I just have to figure out how to forgive and I am working on it. I like to talk things out but he makes it difficult when he answers I don't know or remember. That frustrates me even more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You forgive him by realizing that what he did was because he was weak, insecure, afraid, and traumatized to some degree by his own parents. If you do some reading about how your childhood affects you as an adult, you can get some sense of how it can help you or harm you. Most of us it harms because no one gives you instructions on how to deal with issues. You just cope...well or poorly. You seem to be thinking that he did things on purpose. He didn't. He just reacted, and acted out of self-preservation, like we all do.


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## Susan2010

To tag on to Turnera's response.....he also didn't know. He needed to be wakened. A whoooole lot of men are just like your husband. Like I said before, they don't have his condition to attribute.

I think the problem is a matter of self esteem and self worth. That's why women put up with disrespect, bad marriages, and abusive men. They associate their worth with whatever the man thinks of them or however he treats them, instead of deciding their own worth for themselves. So whether a man's behavior and treatment is intentional or ingrained (from childhood), the woman sits and waits for him to act right, straighten up, treat her better, love her more, and so on. What I am trying to impress upon you is it was as much your fault, if not more so, because you were supposed to decide for yourself and not wait for him to figure it out. That is what you are doing now. If you refuse to hold the past against yourself, you cannot in all fairness hold it against him. You keep harping on all the things he didn't do. In this post and my last post, I have pointed enough things you didn't do. Yes, you asked and yes you expected. But you didn't act. You don't hold these charges against Tamara. So drop the charges against him. That is how you forgive.


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## tamara24

Susan and Turnera,

I read your posts and have thought about it over the last couple of days. The other night I can't explain it any other way, I had a total meltdown. 

I told my hubby, EVERYTHING. Why I was so hurt that he abandoned our family that we had planned together, why his betrayal with the EA's has caused so much anger. Why I felt that he missed things with the kids and me. I was very upset that he had made me feel so bad about myself with his stupid gifts or no gifts at all. I don't think I left anything out. Then I explained that I knew that this was also my fault as I had LET him continue this behaviour without putting a stop to it and that all my anger was not just about him, but about me and the fact that I did not have enough self worth to stop this years ago and wasted so much time.

My hubby, who normally reacts like the mad man, just sat there and listened and totally stayed calm. After I finished, he explained that he had gotten a wake up call and that he knows that he has missed out and that he doesn't know how he can make it up, but he plans to make his family his number one priority. He has since started taking me for dinner, he brought me flowers. I stated that I don't want him doing these things just because I voiced it and he stated that no, that was not the reason, he wanted to see me start smiling again. He wants to make things right.

Since this has all occured, I actually feel better! I feel like some of the pain has gone away. Not because of what he said, but because I told him how I felt about everything. I don't think I have been that brutely honest with him like this ever. I know it hurt him when I said those things, but I wanted him to know how his actions had affected me and why I did not trust him.

He admitted that he had one Emotonal affair, and answered all my questions.He explained that he had been terrified and why he had pulled away. I felt relieved after he had told me everything.That was what I had wanted this entire time.

Now where do we begin? I don't think we are anywhere out of the woods, but the anger has calmed and I am ready to give it a honest try before saying that it is over.I realize we both need to work on this, but where do we begin and how do I set the past aside to be able to trust or will that come later? How do I tell him what I need when I am not sure myself? I know I canot change the past, so how do I start the future?


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## turnera

Awesome!

Go to marriagebuilders and print out two copies of the Love Buster questionnaire. Fill it out. Share. Learn what YOU do that LBs your husband. Let him learn what HE does that LBs you. Promise to stop doing these things. Work on that for a solid month or two. Report back.


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## Susan2010

You might not be able to verbalize what you need from him at this point in time - and that is understandable - so a great place to start is with the basics. This article, The Most Important Emotional Needs, will guide you both in caring for each other. It's also important to understand The Love Bank and how you each make deposits and withdrawals. These two articles will show you the significance of the Love Busters Questionnaire that Turnera suggested and the Emotional Needs Questionnaire. You both have work to do and these articles and questionnaires should keep you busy for a few months. I hope you'll give us progress updates in the meanwhile, and let us know how you're feeling.

You can do this, Tamara, and I really wish you well.


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## Tanelornpete

I just read through this entire thread to get a feel for what is going on and I have to say I agree with both Turnera and Susan - both of you should be aware of the Needs and Busters going on - and both of you must take personal responsibility for the ones you each do to your spouse. 

But...

There is an area in your relationship that I have NOT seen addressed at all, and it seems to me to be key to a lot of what is going on between you two. I cannot understand why this is not brought up more often - it is KEY to developing a good relationship - and it is KEY to being able to understand HOW many of the things you (or your spouse) do that are viewed _by you (or your spouse_ as either Love Busters or Love Kindlers...

What is your personality *type*? What is your husbands?

While I think the Love Languages concept has value, I do not think it is _nearly _as useful as the MBTI. Getting to understand a way of describing how you normally react to situations, how you regain your energy to carry on, how you come to your conclusions about pretty much anything - _especially how you interpret what your spouse is doing and why they are doing it_ is invaluable!

Take the MBTI test and then see if your husband will take it., Then spend some time studying your specific 'type' (and his) to learn some new and interesting things that will most likely help you overcome a LOT of what you perceive right now to be walls.

You can learn more about your 'type' here and here.

For all that you write in this thread, this seems to be more of a personality difference (and the lack of understanding how to 'reach' a different personality) than anything to do with ADHD or 'male laziness' ( a concept I have yet to see actually verified.)

----------------
Now playing: Bachman Turner Overdrive - Street Action
via FoxyTunes


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## Marcos

Hello Everybody:

I know most of the duscussions, have been about ADHD and how it affects him. But I just feel for her for living in this situation. I been dealing with my own issues for the past year and I feel for her and all the things his husband is not doing, but I agree with everybody; we only have control over our actions even if we think we are right, we cannot change the other person. My problem is that i'm on the other side of the coin, I was always romantic and always helped with our kids, took them by myself so she can get a break but after she decided that she was not "in love" I try to be the best husband and that does not make a difference, is like she said on her post "why is is doing this now, and not before" 

TURNERA and BREWSTERS 59, you 2 have very good points, would you mind looking at my only post I have and give me your advise?


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## tamara24

Ok, trying to stay positive.
Today is my daughters bday. So last night, I am cleaning house,making the cake,got groceries and doing laundry. I was totally overwhelmed. He comes in the kitchen where I am making red velvet cake and starts washing an electrical outlet cover to put on the wall behind my dresser.
I am like, first,you are in my way. Second, could you help out by getting the laundry out? He replies, I gotta do this or I will forget. WHAT???
Kids started school, I get up get kids up, start packing HIS lunch,getting breakfast started for the kids and I let out the dogs and he STILL is lying in bed and he leaves when the kids do. So I point out, I realize you are working and all but it would be nice if you got up and helped in the mornings. He has plenty of time to fix his lunch but if he has to fix it, forget it. He will go out. But I can make his lunch all the time!. He just looks at me and says I am just really tired. Well, so am I and my fibromyalgia is screaming in my legs but I have to get things done.
I made a special breakfast in the crock pot this morning and he declares he dislikesit and fixes himself a chicken patty. It irks me because my son is sitting there and as soon as hubby said I. Dislike it, so does my so and don't think he took a single bite.
This just frustrates me to no end. It seems like everytime I try to make something special he has to find a way to be negative about it.
This also confuses me because I think part is ADHD related but after awhile don't you think that he would catch on? The school thing is the same thing that happens every year. His response was what do you. Want me to do? I said let the dogs out, and fix your own lunch. He just looked at me. I thought I was supposed to provide direction and be specific in my needs, so why do I feel like a bi&#%$?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You're not communicating well. From the way you describe it, I'm surprised he's even there.


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## tamara24

I was nice about it, I asked nicely. But what do I say when he sees me running around like a chicken with it's head cut off and he is lying in bed.he literaly gets up poops shaves and showers. It is all about him. Then he says I guess I have to take out the garbage. I already took everything out and all he had to dl was take it from the garage to the curb. So I ended up taking that out. Why is it that I am not communicating well?I feel like it gets dumped on me all the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

tamara24 said:


> I was nice about it, I asked nicely.


You said:
_I am like, first,you are in my way. Second, could you help out by getting the laundry out? He replies, I gotta do this or I will forget. WHAT???_

I do get how frustrated you are. I am too. But you are frustrated because YOU take on the world, and wait for him to come rescue you. Men aren't wired that way. They need specific direction on what you expect in a relationship.

Saying "You are in my way" - really? Here he is fixing something for the house, and you criticize him? And not only that, you say what he's doing is less important than what YOU want? How would you feel if he did that?



> But what do I say when he sees me running around like a chicken with it's head cut off and he is lying in bed.he literaly gets up poops shaves and showers. It is all about him. Then he says I guess I have to take out the garbage. I already took everything out and all he had to dl was take it from the garage to the curb. So I ended up taking that out. Why is it that I am not communicating well?I feel like it gets dumped on me all the time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again, this is YOU deciding what you will do and then blaming HIM for it. If you are overwhelmed, say so. Sit down with a chart and AGREE on who does what. But don't take on the world and then treat him poorly because he doesn't 'see' the sacrifices you're making and rescue you.


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## tamara24

Ok Turnera, I understand part of what you are saying. Confused about the other. First, I didn't say literally you are in my way, I was making red velvet cake and the dye was everywhere,I was trying to get to the sink and here he was and he just sat there washing this cover while I am dripping dye everywhere. I told him the night before what had to be accomplished. I told him what needed to be done and. The outlet he suddenly had decided to fix has been bare for at least four months. I guess I look at this like there are priorities and getting the birthday stuff done was top of the list. This is something that happens all the time. 

After we returned from dinner, he waited until I got home(we had seperate cars)and tells me he is headed over to the neighbor's house. So I have to unload the presents by myself as the kids needed to get baths for school the next day. I know you are going to say I choose to do that.if I didn't it would not get done. The same thing applies to the garbage. He runs late almost everytime and doesn't get that it is not taking it down, but I have gotten everything out for garbage day and he doesn't like to pull the car down and get the trash down. Instead I can just do it . I feel he doesn't help with any household stuff and asking doesn't get it done.

So how do I choose what I am doing, and what I ask him to do and then just l,eave it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

tamara24 said:


> The outlet he suddenly had decided to fix has been bare for at least four months. I guess I look at this like there are priorities and getting the birthday stuff done was top of the list. This is something that happens all the time.


Understood, but he has a mind, too. He has the right to decide what he wants to do. fwiw, my H does the exact same thing: I ask him to do something and he disappears; next thing I know, he's doing something else - just so he doesn't have to do what I 'nag' him about. I've often thought I should just ask him to do something I _don't_ want, and maybe he'll end up doing what I DO want, though it's a crap shoot what he'll choose to do. Actually tried that once, and I got lucky. 



> After we returned from dinner, he waited until I got home(we had seperate cars)and tells me he is headed over to the neighbor's house. So I have to unload the presents by myself as the kids needed to get baths for school the next day. I know you are going to say I choose to do that.if I didn't it would not get done. The same thing applies to the garbage. He runs late almost everytime and doesn't get that it is not taking it down, but I have gotten everything out for garbage day and he doesn't like to pull the car down and get the trash down. Instead I can just do it . I feel he doesn't help with any household stuff and asking doesn't get it done.
> 
> So how do I choose what I am doing, and what I ask him to do and then just l,eave it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 Actually, the presents didn't HAVE to get taken out of the car right then and there. Unless they were frozen or perishable food. He COULD have helped you get them out later. Or, here's a novel thought: the _kids_ could have helped you. If they're old enough to walk, they're old enough to help. But you decided they had to be out right then and there; therefore, you created your own problem. And resented him for it. I will posit that, at this point (and remember, I was where you are now), you do these things just SO you have one more thing to resent him for, subconsciously. That helps you remain the victim and him the bad guy. I know; I played that game for a good ten years, and all it got me was falling out of love with my husband, when I could have made different decisions, and saved it.

What do you do? You find things that matter less to you than others. You sit him down and say you can't keep doing everything yourself. You have to have help. "Here's a list of things you could take on that would help me; please take two items on this list to be responsible for."

And then sit back and LET him be responsible for. It's going to be hard for you to let go. Trust me, BTDT. If he takes dishes, you have to stop the urge to either come up behind him and 'redo' them as you would like them done, or to come in and do them when you think he doesn't do them quickly enough. 

Most men give up on house things because the woman holds some sort of superknowledge and they feel inferior or figure they'll get chewed out, so they slowly make themselves unavailable however they can.

This DOES work. If you're ready and willing to change the dynamics in your household.


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## tamara24

I am sooo ready to change it. I guess I do not know how to change it. I do resent him. I resent his way of just getting up in the a.m. and doing his thing and out he goes, I resent that he can just walk over to the neighbors and when I go somewhere I have to figure out what to do with the kids and everything else. I resent that he has cheated on the very first day I left him with our kids for the first time(mind you they were 6 and 5). He talked on the phone with his EA for 6.5 hours out of the 8 I was gone when he was supposed to be doing stuff with his kids.

Now I am told I have to change. I get that, but it really ticks me off at the same time.I feel like I am the one who is always doing and he just gets away with following along.

I guess I am having a bad day with this because I feel bad about being so negative, but I don't know how to change it. I am reading the books, I get it in my head, but my thoughts are saying here you go, again, having to think about his feelings again and how he feels and how I hurt him. While I was busy taking care of two special needs kids and to the point I am emotionally gone, he gets yet another free pass.

I say this to you because you say I am mirroring you, how do I stop it, how do I just get to that point where I am willing to work on it seriously and can put those thoughts in place. I do want to work seriously on it and to be happy.

Something I have not said as part of this equation. My parents were married early. My mom was two weeks shy of 16 when she had me. All my life she has resented me. My guess is because she missed out. Both parents are not big believers in college and did not support my decision to go. Everytime they fought, he would get in her face and scream and she would just cry. As they got older, she started yelling back. Mostly blaming me. Mind you I did the dishes while they watched t.v. with my brother, fed the outside dogs, made their beds, started dinner and pretty much finished it and she would waltz in just as it was finished to act like she slaved over it. When I started high school, we ended up moving to a sharecroppers shack(seriously) from land owned by my great great grandfather.(money problems). It had one bedroom and then you crossed into the open air hallway into the main living area of a living room and kitchen. It later had been modernized with a toilet but the only heat was from gas radiators that you turned on manually as you went to each room. I was woken up each morning and had to get dressed, cross into the living area and heat the living area up, make their lunches,coffee and hot chocolate for my brother, and then once that was done, they would come in and eat. The fights my parents had there were memerable as I was ALWAYS brought into them and accused of being lazy and ungrateful. When I think back to their actual marraige, I see how my mom dramatized everything. How I was her escape goat since she could not stand up to dad. She twisted things to her satisfaction and was never happy.

I bring this up because I see how I am slowly becoming this way. I vowed never to be like that and at first I was not. But as the kids have had special needs and the hubby checked out, I am slowly feeling all the negativity and he is my scape goat. Yes, he does all kinds of crap that send me into oblivion, but it worries me that I am becoming my mom. I am overweight, scared to do anything about it because I have so many meds already and my legs are an issue, I am negative that things can change, I have literally started my own hate campaign with my sister in law(she really started it) but I can't let go of it, the kids are getting on my last nerve with the medical issues and I never get a break from it. I resent the hubby because he doesn't want to be in the hole with me, he wants to live in his own little world.I feel he should have suffered with me. Does that make sense?

I have been talking to the hubby about my feelings, he says he can see why that upset me, then he does something stupid yet again. I think did we just not talk about that???? I feel like I am falling apart.


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## turnera

I so get it. Believe me. I've tried to kill myself more than once, just to get out of it. I thought it was hopeless, until someone sent me to marriagebuilders.com (they were tired of listening to me gripe about my husband). It literally took me at least a year of posting there, arguing with the people who told me exactly what I'm telling you, before I said 'Fine! I'll try it! But HE is STILL the problem! I HATE having to be nice to him but if you say I have to, I have to! But it won't work!'

Plan A. Love Busters. Emotional Needs. Fifteen hours a week together away from kids. Telling him the truth when I am unhappy. The whole ball of wax. I stopped LBing him. I started paying attention to his ENs and meeting them. I said no when I wanted to say no (a little bit; I'm still bad about that) to stop the resentment. And I tried to do things that he wanted to do.

Little by little two things happened. He started warming up to me and not being such an ass. And I started seeing the 'real' husband, the real man, instead of the vilified man I had created in my head. I started to realize that he had feelings, too, and he was just as miserable as me. Because over all the years, I had started treating HIM bad because I was resenting all the stuff he wasn't doing; and the more I resented him and treated him bad, the worse he treated me - a vicious cycle.

It does work. And it does require you putting your own needs aside for a bit; consider it an experiment. Try it for a month, and if you see no changes, come back and we'll reassess. But I think you will.

And in the meantime, read these two books, which will teach you to STOP being Supermom and stop the resentment: _The Dance of Ange_r, and _Boundaries in Marriage_.


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## tamara24

Ok, having a tough weekend, Friday hubby and I agree to meet for lunch(my idea). He onlyhas an hour so we agree to meet at local resturant. The meeting went terrible,the service was terrible,food took forever, then it was burned. So hubby leaves after complaining to manager and calls me on his way home. So what are the plans for this evening? Nothing I say, just making dinner. Thinking he was going to say let's go out, no he just wants to know cause he can watch a movie he wants to see. Frustrated because I am at home all day and he is tired and wants to come home and veg on the couch. As soon as he hits the door(cell phone in one hand) he is ready to eat and watch t.v. then he says what's the plan for next day, nothing,other than boy scout project with son. Why do you seem so agitated? Well I say, I thought maybe you were going to take me out but you are just concerned about you. No, he says, I thought we were low on money so I thought we would go out Saturday. Ok, that made NO sense were we hitting the lottery Friday night? Then today he goes around, and I am trying to read and not feeling the greatest, he wants to pester me about jobs I asked him to do six months ago.trying to hold my tongue,be nice, but seriously think I am going to lose it. Again, we spent entire weekend in front of t.v. and he is happy about it. Way to put your side to work on the marraige....ugh!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AliceA

tamara24 said:


> Ok, having a tough weekend, Friday hubby and I agree to meet for lunch(my idea). He onlyhas an hour so we agree to meet at local resturant. The meeting went terrible,the service was terrible,food took forever, then it was burned. So hubby leaves after complaining to manager and calls me on his way home. So what are the plans for this evening? Nothing I say, just making dinner. Thinking he was going to say let's go out, no he just wants to know cause he can watch a movie he wants to see. Frustrated because I am at home all day and he is tired and wants to come home and veg on the couch. As soon as he hits the door(cell phone in one hand) he is ready to eat and watch t.v. then he says what's the plan for next day, nothing,other than boy scout project with son. Why do you seem so agitated? Well I say, I thought maybe you were going to take me out but you are just concerned about you. No, he says, I thought we were low on money so I thought we would go out Saturday. Ok, that made NO sense were we hitting the lottery Friday night? Then today he goes around, and I am trying to read and not feeling the greatest, he wants to pester me about jobs I asked him to do six months ago.trying to hold my tongue,be nice, but seriously think I am going to lose it. Again, we spent entire weekend in front of t.v. and he is happy about it. Way to put your side to work on the marraige....ugh!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds like a lot of negativity on your part. You went out to lunch, yeah it was crap, but he didn't make it crap. Why would you expect him to read your mind and take you out to dinner the same day? 

Instead of complaining about not getting out of the house all weekend, why not just get out of the house? If you want a special night every week, tell him. SAY 'babe, let's make Saturday nights OUR night, to go out somewhere for dinner or whatever.' 

You don't want to be bothered by hearing about jobs you asked him to do because you were reading. That's just confusing. Straight out, answer his questions, and then say, 'I'm just going to spend the next hour reading, would you mind if I talked to you more about stuff later?'

I understand you feel frustrated and feel like everything is very one sided, but you have to stop assuming that he has a direct line into what you are thinking.


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## turnera

I agree with everything breeze said. Everything you described is you setting up a minefield for him - he KNOWS he won't be making you happy, but he has no idea what to do to fix it. He tries to do your honey-do list, but you're having none of it...cos you're reading. He takes you out to lunch, but you make him feel bad for not taking you out to dinner. Then, when he doesn't do the honey-do list because you won't talk to him about it, you complain that you spent the weekend in front of the tv.

I'm not saying he's a saint. I'm saying you are letting your own resentment fuel your actions, and since he can't read your mind, he's got little chance of making you happy.


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## tamara24

You are right. Everything just seems strange at the moment. I feel totally disconnected from him. Just looking at him makes me mad.
I was upset about going out to dinner that very night but the manaager comped our meals because he saw how bad they were and the last thing hubby said before leaving was we need to redo that one. It is like he leads me up to thinking he is going to ask then totally flubs it. 
I am frustrated because I feel like I did all my kindlers according to his need her needs. And I am waiting on an reaction that never happens. His explanation made no sense, and I feel like he threw that in there to keep from getting in trouble.
I finished his needs her needs last night. Felt it helped me to understand things but most of the examples had people that did have some connection on what they should be doing. He does nothing in or outside the house, just started being with the kids, and he makes no decisions concerning the house or the family. I have to decide because he is ALWAYS on the fence. If I decide something and it doesn't work than I am to blame. I know it sound like I am the dictator as the book describes but he refuses to communicate and give me opinions. So unless I spell everything out, he could care less.
The book really hit home with the discussion of coparenting too. Last year, after months of struggles with school administration for the kids, it all came to a head and I had to decide whether to pull my kids or take their crap. Hubby refused to go to meeting with me and I felt all alone. It was my decision to pull the kids and he had nothing to say. 
I FEEL ALL ALONE
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Indecision is usually (from what I've read) either a result of depression or insecurity.

I don't think he purposely led you up to thinking he was going to ask about dinner. I think he really meant, we'll have to redo that. But that is ALL he thought. None of us thinks exactly the same. You may be the kind of person who doesn't stop a subject until you have weighed all angles, devised solutions, and resolved your issue; he may simply be one who says 'yeah, we should do it' and then never thinks about it again; or he waits for you to TELL him when 'it's time.' If you're always making decisions, why should he change the dynamics now?


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## tamara24

He started reading love busters on Sunday and commented to me that he could see things that he has done that he thought he had asked but it was more of a demand. He also figured out that I am between the conflicting stage and the withdrawn stage. He is like whoa! I know why you are there. 
What I find really interesting is that he is mad if I am in the withdrawl stage because that means I am done working on the marraige. He wants to argue that I have to stay in the conflicting section. I replied, I know I have signs of the withdrawl stage but I feel that if you see the love busers that have occured, and you change this behavior then I can willingly go to another place when I see we are at a place when we can both work on it and it not be one sided. He got mad???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Sounds like he wants to work on the relationship. That's good! I wish I got that much from my husband!


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## tamara24

I thinks he knows that I am not going to take the bologna anymore. I know it takes to and I have been the giver for a long time and now the taker is in the house
I know that it is not right but I feel I am in survivor mode not only for me but the kids too. If he wants to think only of himself, I can no longer lie to the kids why dad didn't come to things or put on that happy smile to make everything seem o.k. I have just feel like I have hit rock bottom and knowing that I have to change too. But part of my changing is not allowing him to dump things on me or do everything because he refuses to help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Definitely. I, too, covered for DD's dad, and made excuses to everyone else, too. I was finally taught that my doing that is perpetuating the poor treatment because he suffers no consequences.


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## Susan2010

I think it's time you read this whole thread again because too much is repeated over and over. That means you understand but you're not doing it. This time through, read it as if it's not you who wrote it and the respondents are not talking to you but to someone else. Write responses you would tell this person. Examine how they are different from what the person stated and what you would tell her and how they differ from the advice this person was given. Some of your last posts didn't make sense, particularly about him wanting to do things you previously asked him to do. It feels like you are in complain and victim mode and unable to step out of it. It's time to stop complaining and get a clear picture of what you are dealing with and what you want to do about it. Reading through again should give you more perspective or a different perspective.


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## tamara24

I did as you requested,Susan. I sound so negative and yes I do feel I am in victim mode.
I am doing things to change this. Still reading Love Busters and discussing things with hubby. This weekend hubby and son went camping for boy scouts. My hubby actually PACKED his own bag and got all the equipment down so I could load it easily. Normally he does nothing! I found stuff he missed, but I wasn't upset because he at least tried. 
I plan to finish love busters this weekend but I also want to spend some time with my daughter. We don't get much time to do that.
I am leary as to how thing will go. We are in the beginning stages of yet another crisis. My mammagram came back with weird so I had an ultrasound. They called yesterday, and I have to go in because they found a nodule( I am not even sure what that is) so now I have to get a compression done. This was my first mammogram and now I can feel the panic hitting. What if something is wrong? Is he going to be ableto handle it or is just going to ignore it? What about the kids? I know it could be anything, but I started feeling a tenderness under my arm but I thought it was from excercising. Now it worries me. 
I am trying to work on it, I just need to breathe and take the bad as set backs but I also feel I need t vent my frustration. I have held it in for so long. Bear with me, Susan. I am getting to that place, I just need to stop stumbling.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

tamara, don't worry before you need to. Nodules can be a lot of things. I actually got some from drinking too much caffeine! I stopped the Cokes, and they went away! Talk about a caffeine headache, though!


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## tamara24

I am trying not to. I hate when the doc office is so impersonal and unclear. Plus, I am a planner! It is hard not knowing to at least get a plan! It is driving me nuts!
Hubby texted goodnight last night and good morning today,more than he has done in the past. I like that he is giving me updates on our son too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Susan2010

tamara24 said:


> Bear with me, Susan. I am getting to that place, I just need to stop stumbling.


I wasn't being intolerant or impatient or anything. I thought you needed to see it all again because it's easy to get caught up in each individual moment as they happen. 

Try not to worry too much, at least until you know what is going on. I'm sending powerful healing thoughts your way.


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## tamara24

I have never thought of you as impatient or intolerant. I value your opinion,Susan. It was good to look at it the way you described. It made me wonder if I show all that negativity to him as described by me. I hold back saying things because I avoid fighting about it,but I don't like all the negativity.
It made me think how I need to focus on the positive and not dwell so much on how things don't go my way or how I would do it.
I am half way through love busters,plan to finish tonight/in the morning. I recognize myself in all the he describes. I am putting a new plan in place to stop the bad behaviors that are hurting both of us. 
He is still upset that I am in withdrawn stage.I plan to address that when he returns. I have been upfront and honest about how I feel. He needs to respect that it is not going to change overnight and we both need to work on it.
Thank you for the thoughts,they are greatly appreciated!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kimie

stop : Decide what yo want then do it:
You ll be dead all too soon so dont wait


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## tamara24

I have made some decisions. I have finished reading both love busters and his needs,her needs. I can identify things that I do.Hubby is still on love busters and is a slow reader so I am waiting for him to finish before discussing anything.

I surprised myself this week. I know that I am beyond burned out and on a verge of a nervous breakdown.I bought a plane ticket and I am going to see my grandmother for a week. She lost my grandfather last year and has wanted me to come. I have never left kids with hubby nor have I ever left by myself for any great length of time. I am taking a week but I am having panic attacks if I have made a rash decision.
I felt I needed to look at things from outside the box. I am to cluttered to deal with anything like this and I see myself in a vicious circle and can't stop. 
I hope I made the right choice. Hubby promised to read the ooks while I am gone and I am going to use the time for reflection.


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## turnera

That is an EXCELLENT decision!


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## AWife

Wow!

I've been lurking on this site for a little while. This thread is exactly what I needed to read. Of course the life details are different, but I am in exactly the same place. This advice is perfect for me as well. 

I will probably post my own story, but I just wanted you to know you're not alone. I see so much of my life in your story. I also feel so tired and completely emotionally drained. I guess I need to get busy! 

Thank you so much for sharing.


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## tamara24

Thank you. I hope all turns out well for you.
I don't know what the heck I was thinking. Yes, I do, but really, what was I thinking?
I have all kinds of food out to cook bake and freeze so they will hve dinner and I am thinking, not enough time.
Daughter just cries even with me reasurring her. Hubby just keeps asking, why are you going,why?
I answer because I need this. I think he is afraid I won't come home. I think he should use this time to think and be with his kids. Maybe he will get a feel of what I go through.

I don't know, I am panicking. What if the kids get sick?,what if I need to go gt one of them from school? What if son starts swelling and how is hubby going to deal? 
Talk me down,talk me down!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

Day three of my mini relief week. Hubby couldn't handle paperwork for field trip,then of all weeks, the science fair paperwork comes out and hubby tells son, he has no clue. 
Getting calls from daughter at six in the a.m. that son can't go perform band because he couldn't find his shoes.Are you kidding me??? 
In the meantime, as I flew here my aunt was admitted into hospital and is a semi coma and both kidneys have failed. I have been taking my grandmother to the hospital and making sure she is eating.
The deal with hubby is causing some major love busters. I can tell he has not read the books. Part of me says breathe, they are not used to mom not there to handle things . The other says, come on!get with the program.I have sons science teacher calling me, emailing counslors. Hello, can I get a break? 
So frustrated!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I know this will be hard, but LEAVE IT ALONE! You are gone, HE is in charge. Let him deal with it, suffer the consequences, and learn from it.


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## tamara24

I did that today. I got three calls from the kids and I just stated that I was not there and dad needed to handle it. I also think his mother gave him a talking to because his aunt saw how much they were caling and hubby complaining about the kids.
He started complaining today and I just informed him that I was at the hospital and could not talk. Then I refused to answer the phone. I think he got the message.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Excellent! Just think how much he will appreciate all that you do, when you're back.


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## tamara24

I hope so. He hinted that he finished love busters. Maybe that is why all the calls stopped. He texted earlier that he had nothing for dinner. I reminded him of the tacos and he was like how do I fix that? At least he is getting the message.
I miss the kids but I am not ready to go back,isn't that awful? I just feel a great burden has been lifted from me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

Ok, now I need to make decisons. My week did not go as expected due to aunts illness. A few things I realized is that I did not miss my hubby. I enjoyed the time alone. After the pestering stopped, I did not care to call him or even just chat.
I am going to see what happened while I was away and whether or not his new found parenting skills were less desirable than I can take. A few of the phone calls I got were kinda fuzzy on details.
I also want to see how I feel when I see him this evening.
After that, decisions need to be made and fast. I realized just how unhappy I am and thingsi know what needs to be fixed.I realized how short life is and I don't want to be miserable in it anymore. I want to be happy. There are things that I need to do on my own to make my own happiness. I deserve it and so does my family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Ok, just a reminder that, just as you have had a revelation this week by being free of the drama, he may have had a revelation of what he's been taking for granted. Give him a chance before you make any decisions.


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## AliceA

tamara24 said:


> Ok, now I need to make decisons. My week did not go as expected due to aunts illness. A few things I realized is that I did not miss my hubby. I enjoyed the time alone. After the pestering stopped, I did not care to call him or even just chat.
> I am going to see what happened while I was away and whether or not his new found parenting skills were less desirable than I can take. A few of the phone calls I got were kinda fuzzy on details.
> I also want to see how I feel when I see him this evening.
> After that, decisions need to be made and fast. I realized just how unhappy I am and thingsi know what needs to be fixed.I realized how short life is and I don't want to be miserable in it anymore. I want to be happy. There are things that I need to do on my own to make my own happiness. I deserve it and so does my family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can understand you not missing your hubby. You have not had a lot of time to just relax and reflect on things. You've been busy going to hospital, looking after family and also trying to spend time with relatives on your 'holiday'. On top of that, you were worrying about the kids, and getting calls all the time hardly allows you any space to miss anyone.

I just had three days away from my hubby. I didn't feel like I had an ounce of spare time to miss him. I was looking after the kids and trying to get some quality time talking to family in any spare moment. I know I love him dearly, and I feel like our marriage is going very well at the moment. I don't take that as a sign that I don't love him, but more that when we have a lot going on, we just don't delve deep. We do what we have to do, we get on with things.

You do deserve happiness. Maybe as the kids get older, things will get easier for you. I would imagine it won't always be this hard for you.


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## turnera

I'll tell you something. I have to be 'someone else' when I'm around my husband. I have to make sure I don't do things he criticizes me for (like making fun of me for noises coming out of the toilet room, or wanting to play solitaire on the computer instead of just lying in bed watching tv with him). I have to make sure he's getting all his needs met, or he grouses (like not stocking the fridge with his favorite drink). I have to think ahead to whether he'll disapprove of what I do (like using tax refund to pay one bill instead of another, after I waited for him to fix the 'other' one, and he didn't). I'm always 'on' when he's around. 

He, on the other hand, walks around in his underwear, drops his clothes where he wants, leaves trash around, despite me asking him not to. Because he knows I'll accept what he does, and I'll come around behind him cleaning up - it's what I was raised to be like.

That said, for the last 10 years or so, every birthday, I've had one request for a present: take DD and go away for the weekend and leave me alone in the house. So I can be me. So I can sleep in if I want. Or go eat Mexican food, which they both hate. Or sit with the laptop all day without feeling guilty. Or work in the garden all day instead of whatever HE decides we have to do.

He did it once, for about 4 hours (went to a local park with DD). Not long enough, but those 4 hours were heaven. Because for the first time, I could turn 'off' and just be me. 

It's a powerful draw.


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## tamara24

Hubby and I briefly chatted last night. My son was in a medical crisis when I returned so I spentmy first day home taking care of him. I feel totally drained. I was hoping to come home with this huge load of energy. It hasn't come yet.

I asked hubby what he thought about love busters. He mentioned that he saw several points in the book and mentioned a couple. Just as I was falling asleep he says I am sorry for hurting you all this time. I didn't realize I did it. Wow! Not sure what to say. He asked me yesterday if I loved him. I asked why he would say that? He said I don't say it anymore. I feel like it seems forced when I say it. Now hubby seems to say it all the time.

I agree my vacation did not go as planned. Maybe that is why I feel so loaded down. Coming home to son was not what I had anticipated. I am seriously giving going to a therapist a thought. I was listening to a radio show and they were discussing something called caregiver burn out. Everything they mentioned is exactly how I feel. I wouldn't think that I would have that,because I wanted to be a mom and I signed on for this. It bothered me that I could mirror all the feelings that they talked about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Once, I was so stressed out that my neck locked in place - couldn't turn it! My muscles were so tight from stress and unhappiness that my body turned on me. My doctor took one look at me and said "How much time do you take for yourself?" I said none. He said "What would you like to do?" I said sit down and read a book without feeling guilty. He said "How long has it been since you've done that?" I said 15 years. He sent me to a stress therapist, who told me that 85% of her patients are women, distinctly because of that caregiver burnout. We try to do everything, and the men let us. But it can only stop with YOU. You can't wait for your husband to 'get it' and start stepping up. You have to start stepping back and expect and let him pick up the slack.

Now that you have his attention, ask him what chores he's willing to pick up.


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## tamara24

Last night I went out with two of my friends to celebrate my upcoming bday. I came home and brought desert for hubby and the kids. They enjoyed it.

Got in bed and hubby says you don't touch me anymore and don't act like you want me to hold you. I told him that I felt like it was forced and when he holds me I feel worse because of the way I feel. Right now, I feel absolutley no love for him,not hatred just like room mates.

I asked him if he knew why I left. He said to get away from me. I stated no, I wanted you to see what I go through and I have no partner in any of this. He states that it is apples and oranges because I do not work. I said no, it is not ever going to be the same. But I did all the laundry,cooked food and froze it forthe week,changed all the doc appt.until I got back, and he still had no clue how to get it done.if I had added all the other items, he would be totally overwhelmed. He stated he got that. Then I asked, didhe want to be in a marraige like this and he said no. But I do not take responsibility for my part in this marraige. I told him that yes, I do take responsibility, but my actions have been largely due to the fact that I am soo angry for his actions or his lack of. I know I put the kids first,but they have chronic illnesses.how could I not? And then if he would have helped,I could have made time and would have been less exhausted.he agreed. I. Have read the books and know I need to tell him what my needs are and listen to him tell me his needs. I can express some of my needs but other needs,I am not even sure myself yet. I have just begun thinking about me. I am not entirely. Sure. How do I tell him that?
I know he needs to be touched and cuddled and his way of feeling loved. Do I do it so I start feeling comfortable again? I know he likes to express his feelings through sex but I currently have a cist on my cervix and it makes sex painful. I explained that last night. I am not withholding but I think it will take a few weeks before it gets taken off and heals, so what do I do about that? I do not do oral so please do not suggest that. I think he needs that feeling to be connected. I am not sure what to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

My husband gets a lot of handjobs when I don't want intercourse.


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## tamara24

Turnera, you crack me up. I will definitley be giving it a try. 
I am still trying to get back into the swing of things. Son was ill until yesterday and I need to get some things accomplished. I hate being behind.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

So my bday was wed. Hubby went out of his way to make it special. I got a cake for the first time in eighteen years. He really tried. 

I told him at the end of the night how I appreciated everything he did. I don't want him to think he needs to go overboard. It was not about presents,it was about the thought! He told me that he was attempting to try to do things like when we first dated. That he realized that he loved me and that he understands why I am so angry and he doesn't know why he did everything that he did. He wants me to give him another chance.
I see that he is trying and I am willing to try just as long as this isn't a six month I will be good stage.
I explained I would try but I am looking for a permanent change, not a temporary fix.
One of my biggest complaints is that he doesn't participate in any financial decisions or help with money. He spends without knowing what we have and he impulse buys only with his needs.
He installed quicken on my computer so we can both look at bills and know what we have in the bank.
Now comes the real work....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Great update!

I have a great idea for you. Look for a Financial Peace University class starting near you. Usually, churches put them on (you don't have to belong to the church), it's a 10-week course that teaches you a LOT about financial independence and planning. Great stuff. Very cheap.

And HAPPY BIRTHDAY!


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## tamara24

My friend watched the kids for the weekend so we could celebrate our 18th. Wedding anniversary. We stayed at a resort,went for dinner,talked, and had a good time. 

He mentioned that after hearing the reasons why I wanted to leave he looked at his family and how they have dealt with their relationships,he did not want that for himself and his kids.we talked about the things that. Are my top love busters. I mentioned that since we have a son with autism that he says things that are not appropriate and then my son repeats them at the absolute worst time and hubby gets mad.I realize adhd is involved, but he is the dad and needs to teach by his actions. He agreed and that he needed to watch this. 
So the next day, we get the kids so we can have a family day and all day long,hubby keeps making comments. Finally, I turn to him and say look, did we or did we not just talk about this? He answered yes, and then immediately stopped doing it. 
Later I asked why did you do that? He stated he didn't realize that he did it that much. Didn't we just discuss it? Other than that, it really well.it was nice not to have to worry about the kids or what I needed to do next for them. It gave me time to unwind.
I also made a point of saying I would not be waiting to see how long this lasts. I was not going to let this be something that lasts six months and go back to the same old thing. I was looking for changes with myself, with my family, with my home. I know it is not going to change overnight but I am not. Waiting for it forever to change. Is that understandable?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Perfectly. And what you need.


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## tamara24

Now that I have had a few days of reality again, I already feel the exhaustion. Is that normal?yesterday,I contacted my MIL and asked that she send my niece her Christmas presents instead of me getting them for her. Tension between the SIL has hit a new high and we are not allowed to do anything. With our niece and BIL allows it even though he doesn't agree with it. MIL was fine as she knows the situation and agreed that would be for the best.I am still in charge of purchasing for another relative and I don't haave it in me to tell her I will not do it because she is house bound. I told my hubby that after Thanksgiving, he can drop our presents off and I do not plan to have a get together with them. He agreed. The thing that bothers me is that he agrees with this yet he still calls and talks to his brother like nothing happened and they just pretend all is well. This aggravates me as I feel like it just let's the bad behavior continue and says yea, just keep walking all over us.
Hubby has been pushing every night for sex. But I am drained and feel like that is the last thing on my mind! Is this normal ? I feel like all the energy I had over such a great weekend just drained.
I am trying not to hold it against hubby,but I feel like a lot of my preasure comes from his side of the family,then we have our own issues. They have a lot of relationship/communication issues and hubby comes from that. 
I am ready for just some peace and struggling to find it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Can you guys get away? I'm actually looking for a place to go to for the Christmas holiday, so I don't have to be with family.


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## tamara24

No, we can't get away. This weekend was our getaway. Son's illness a couple of weeks ago,took most of the spare money. Plus I like to have the kids at home for the holidays. It is too hard to move them around. I am just planning to enjoy our family and let them enjoy theirs. It is sad it has to be that way, but I do not need the extra stress. I just dread the phone call asking when we are getting together. I am thinking of letting hubby handle it since it is his family. I usually don't divide the family up, family is family. Unfortunatley ,,at this point if I say anything it will be out of anger and stress and could do. More harm than good.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I had Christmas dinner at my house a couple years ago, invited our best friends, and when my brother and his wife and my mom got there, I told them that I had invited our friends (whom they have met at various kids' parties). My brother, without skipping a beat, said 'Ok, let's just open presents then, and we'll be going home.' I said what? He said 'I don't do dinners with people I don't know.' And he was serious - they left. And that was a good holiday event...


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## turnera

btw, I didn't mean to get away for the holiday, just something now, to refresh and recharge.


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## tamara24

No, our anniversary weekend was it for us. I did find out why I am exhausted though. My potassium levels dropped and my blood sugar from starting a new medication.
I did something funky yesterday,I bought my son a new bed. It tramatized the kid. He TOTALLY dislikes change. And I usually do it in small amounts. But I was sick of the disorganization in the house and lack of room/closet space. So I got him a futon bunk bed and we turned it into a family project for the day today. Yesterday,son melted down over it and today he has come to terms that mom was not budging.
It is a change,a small one, yet feels like a start!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

After this last episode with my health, I have decided to go ahead and go to seminar for weight loss surgery. It is not the way I wanted to go, but I have tried everything else and I want my life back. I also want my home back to normal. 
I am determined to change things so I feel better. In the midst of all this. I see that I create my own stress sometimes.I don't want to live in crisis mode all my life. Have you ever heard of somebody that creates more stress? I can't focus on things. I feel disorganized. I'm not happy with me. 
My hubby is changing but I see myself as a constant and that needs to change. Is this normal?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Yeah. Do you think you need anti-depressants? What you are describing is depression.

What you need right now is a plan.


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## tamara24

Yes, am on them now and dr. And I had long chat to make a plan. I am in depression and she says that is typical with my condition and dealing with two kids with chronic conditions. My weight is my biggest issue because,of course it hurts my self esteem/self worth. I know those are MY issues.

I am trying to change myself and see where that leads the hubby. He is working on the big issues that I have in the marraige. He agrees they need to change. I guess I am lost at this point. I feel like he is doing the stuff(for the most part) and I still am not happy.we have good days but the bad ones are REALLY bad. Or things start going well,then he does something stupid.not just something annoying but with the ADHD,he does stuff without thinking.
It REALLY bothers me that his actions show he is not loyal to us,his family. He doesn't stick up for me,nor does he bother to say anything to let his family know that he is not putting up with the stupid antics any longer.
It would be different if it was just me,but it is also his kids.plus the inability to think about or take care of any crisis that comes up just leaves me boggled. He says I need to tell him, but sometimes,I feel that he just doesn't care enough to make the effort.you can't blame adhd on everything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

How about writing a journal, and letting him read it?


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## tamara24

I don't think he would like what he read. I am also not ready to open myself up like an open book yet. I am being open with him,but some things,I need to mull over more.

Two things have happened I am not happy with. As I said I am considering weight loss surgery. The ins, lady called and said my plan does not cover it but with open enrollment ,I could switch the plans. I ,entioned this to my hubby as it would cost 50.00 more a month but I could save on the medications that I could be going off of within the year. He got all snotty,I thought you were trying the hormone therapy, and now you decided to do this. I agreed to do hormone therapy and do all the stuff to prepare myself for surgery just so I can be prepared either way. All he seems to care about is the 50.00???

Then he caught strep from me and the kids. Before I left to go visit my grandmother, I gave him a form to fill out from his insurance. He didn't fill it out and went to the doc. They refused to see him unless he paid on the bill. Then he got prescriptions and they aren't being covered! So he calls me up, can you find the paperwork? Then I state this is one of the things that add more stress to the marraige. Now we are out money and I am trying to purchase Christmas presents. This adds to my stress levels. Can he not see that? Then he gets mad cause he doesn't feel well and I am being a ----. Does he not see the issue? Or as usual, I am left to take care of it.
I am so frustrated with that and what is up with 50.00 extra a month if it contributes to me feeling better about myself? I think there is more to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Do the new insurance. You don't need his permission.

What do you care if he likes what you journal? Your marriage is getting worse, not better. At least if you show him you are doing SOMETHING to fix the marriage.


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## tamara24

I have decided that I am going to make an appointment with an insurance represenative and discuss my goals and see if they can give me my options.
He called me today wanting to know if I have proof of insurance certificates from his last two insurances. I told him,even if we did,at this point,I could not find them with all the transitions in the house.
I think he is afraid that if I loose the weight and start feeling better about myself,I will leave for sure. I just get the vibe, he prefers I stay this way so I won't think anyone will want me.I am not leaving any part of this decision up to him. I need to do this for ME. My friend told me this too. She thinks that he is afraid of where he will stand when I start looking better.
Your right about the journal, but I am trying to not hurt feelings and to explain and point out things he does. He would focus on anything I write hurtful and we would be arguing about that. I want to focus on things as it happens so I can say see this is what I am talking about.with the ADHD, I think he will get more out of it..I honestly don't know.I am playing this day by day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I agree he's afraid he'll leave. Hmmm. I wonder if that's why my DH never objected to my weight. He used to always worry I'd leave.

How about instead of a journal, a letter to him?


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## tamara24

Sooo, this morning, I have the insurance person coming to my house. Both kids and hubby recovering from strep,the house is a disaster. I ask hubby Saturday to help me get things accomplished. I really wanted the hot tub going as the weather is getting cooler and I can enjoy it. I went out scrubbed the tub and got some things done outside. Sunday, hubby is feeling bad again and doesn't want to help with the house. I ran around today and tried to get things done. As he went out the door,he says you can take the garbage out. I ignoed him as I hav plenty to do. Then,he texts me when he gets to work,ugh I really forgot to take out the garbage. What? So I text him back. Knowing I have a full plate today and I am now on a heart medication as my doc believes I am stressed(I am trying to suppress a giggle a that) and my pulse rate is too high. I am exhausted and you add to my list of tasks. This is what I I refer to as dumping on me. You are not happy about me seeing the insurance guy so you want to overload me.
He replies,oh no it was an accident. Really?
I know it is small and stupid but I really think he is being spiteful that I a/ taking control. It seems the more I take control, the worse things get. Is this the way it is supposed to work when the spouse is taking charge of their life? Is there an anger adjustment time?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Have you read The Dance Of Anger yet? It talks about 'change back!' behavior, where when one person changes, the one who's used to them taking care of everyone and not asking for anything gets upset and tries to make it too difficult to change - put enough obstacles in your way, and you may give up and 'change back' to the way you used to be. They often are unaware they are doing it to you. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to acknowledge this likelihood and continue to proceed as you see fit.


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## tamara24

I have decided that I can no longer be a victim and I have to save myself and be happy. If that means with him,great. If he can't be on board then so be it. I have tried explaining why I needed to do this and I still have not decided. Which way I plan to go, but I want to have the choice.
He says he is not intentionally trying to. Sabatoge me, but man does it seem like it. I asked him if I were to do the surgery and lose the weight did he think that I would definitley leave. He says no,that is not it at all. He is just worried that something will happen. So am I but I have to prepare for what I might be doing.
I think I will get the book.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You're in therapy, right?

Here's how I see situations like yours. You are yourself. Nobody was born with you, unless you're a twin. No one will die with you. You can live and survive without him. Thus, he can either be a boon to your life or a detriment. If he ends up being a detriment, it is your job - in honor of your parents who (I assume) wanted only for you to be happy - to find happiness in life. 

He can either be PART of that journey, or you can leave him behind.


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## tamara24

No, I don't go to therapy. Can't afford it with the kids stuff too. My parents, are all about themselves. I come from a old traditional southern family. I am the girl,therefore will not carry my families lst name. Thus not worth as much as my brother. I have been raised to please everbody but me.

I think that is what scares me the most. Not knowing what makes me happy. I just know,I do not like THIS. I am everyones caretaker. Not that I hate that role,but I am realizing I don't take care of me.I have let myself go and taken on the responsibilities of both parents in this house. I do not have a partner that can support me. He is changing,but I feel very fried. Like I have nothing left to give.he has been running around doing stuff that I usually handle and I don't have the energy to even help. I just watch and think, this isn't a partnership either. I am being lazy. Does anybody else have those feelings?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Then reading The Dance of Anger will help you a lot.

And it just may be that you now need some time to yourself. A lot of women never stop to learn who they are - they're always extensions of family, husband, kids. Maybe you should consider separation for a little while to be on your own for once.


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## tamara24

I have spent my last two weeks taking care of son,rheumatoid arthritis and lock jaw. From being,streched on time, drank too much pop,got a kidney infection. It has been quite a week on top of dr. Appts. School and trying to get stuff ready for Christmas.
Last week, hubby frustrated cause I do not touch him. I stated, I am tired, and it is hard to be in the mood when you are freaking out over son dropping stuff or daughter spilled a drink. I said I told you,I am looking for. Someone to be a partner in the marraige and good dad and these things fall through the cracks. 
I stated that I have taken care of all three of them for the past 12 years and now I need to take care of myself and decide what is best for me. I was also miffed that he talked to a women coworker about me having weight loss surgery. After telling me he was against me to do it, this coworker explained that if it would help me lose some of those meds,it would be worth it and now he is ok with it. WTF? I explained everything to him!

This morning, he starts in that he has been compassionate of my medical issues and he doesn't. As fo sex so why shouldn't feel compelled to touch him. I said nicely. This is just not my medical stuff, I have been dealing with son, and getting Christmas presents ready to mail for his family and mine. On top of this,I am dealing with getiing school stuff and two kids science fair projects. If he needs more attention,he can't wait until it festers but to ask if it really bothers him. Is that not rational?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Why are you not handing him projects to take care of? "Here, MrTamara, Suzy has to turn in this science project on Thursday. I'm handling Joey's, you can handle Suzy's. I've told her you will be helping her. I'm off to the library with Joey."


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## tamara24

I have not handed him the projects because he has not been getting home from work until 6 and my daughter needs to be in bed no later than 8:30. The time constraint is way to short not to mention,both are on adhd meds and they start wearing off by then. Secondly, I have done the last three fairs with my son,we have a system and he has won first place and special award from homeland security. As bad as this sounds, I am not placing the hubby in the position to help my son. This year he has a chance to earn scholarship money!
I have been giving him jobs to do and he is very good at asking how my son's condition has been lately. I think he is at more of a loss at my ability to give him attention or affection. Right now, I am focusing on what is good for me and the kids. I think my changing scares him. He denies it,but I don't think he likes my new attittude towards things.
On another note, his brother called and ased if we can get together New Years Eve for Christmas. Hubby told him no,we had other plans. I told him that I am not going to freak out if he wants to go. He said no, he was tired of the b.s. it makes me sad that they can't do anything together,but at the same time,I don't care to go. I bugs me though, that he doesn't just tell him,hey you insulted my wife,make it up!
Am I wrong with all this on my plate that he should tell me and not expect me to get it and do for him when I am the one in charge of it all?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I'm sorry but, again, it's all on your plate because you ALLOW it to be.


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## tamara24

I know Turnera, I can't figure out how to get out of that circle. Part of me doesn't realize I am in it,until I am too late or I think I am afraid of giving up the control. He doesn't have agreat track record with responsibility,for example, forgetting things, losing patience, and does not seem to have a clue. 
I don't think it is an excuse,he has no idea how to be part of a family.

I gotta figure this out. I need to figure it out before I get into the circle of allowing it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Why don't you get a poster board, and write down ALL the things that are involved in keeping your family functioning? Put everything you do in one color, and everything HE does in another color. 

Sit down with him and show it to him. Explain that it's draining you and also your love for him, because you are overwhelmed and you need a husband who will share the load. 

Tell him that you need him to pick 3 of the things on the list currently under your color, to take on, to help.


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## turnera

One thing YOU will have to do if you do this is LET GO. 

You have to LET GO of HOW he does the chore, WHEN he does the chore, and HOW WELL he does the chore. 

Very often, men may start out wanting to help, but women 'shoo' them away because they don't do things 'good enough.' So they just give up and let you do it all.

LET GO.


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## tamara24

It's not that I care how he does it, but I felt I made a huge step when I left them all for the week in October. I didn't realize what I was getting into,but I thought he would get a chance to see what all gets done.
Instead, I came home to a son with a staph infection(both swear it did not break out until the day I returned but I find that so hard to believe. 

It just made me feel like I get "punished" for trying to let go. I don't think he neglected our son, but I don't think he specifically watched the rash unless son said something. At this point, son has such a high pain, tolerance he wouldn't notice if he was on fire half the time.

I do have to figure this out, but I won't let the kids be the ones to pay. I am considering contacting catholic charities and find out about counseling. I need to talk to someone.

Also, Turnera, just wanted your opinion. Do you think he was wrong talking to woman coworker. About my upcoming surgery(possible)?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Yes, he was wrong. But you are your own worst enemy. Read up about boundaries, and read up about having your partner share responsibilities.


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## tamara24

I am working on expressing what I need help with. It has been extremely cold here and he works outside so I have not pushed the envelope this week. He is exhausted when he gets home.

I did tell him, I hate the fact that he never knows what I got the kids for Christmas until they open it, so last Sunday we went shopping for stocking stuffers and had a great time.

Son still having medical problems so I have been busy with him. Hubby has called and asked specifics on what was going on at doc apptsand stuff. I find that to be really nice.

Still having issues that he can't put cell phone down and wants to argue about mehaving the weight loss surgery. I talked to one of our mutual friends we have known for twenty two years. He told hubby that he needs to support my decision and this was not about us, but about me and how I felt. Hubby said that he just wanted me to wait until summer. Why would I wait until then? Both kids would be home and I would be taking care of them instead of recooperating and having the flexibility of going to support. Classes and dietician seminars. I just got the paperwork and can be done by Feb. I feel like here we go, he will drag his feet and make sure that I am miserable about my decision. I know we are supposed to do this mutually agree on things, but I NEED to do this for me. Should I just ignore him and go for it or push it off until we agree?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## major misfit

I'm really late on this thread, and I just want to comment on one thing. You asked the question.."Should I just ignore him and go for it or push it off until we agree?"

That would be akin to asking his permission for you to end up crippled or dead. The argument could be made that those things aren't going to happen before summer, but would he REALLY get on board by then? Sounds like he's just trying to push off the inevitable until he can come up with another reason why you shouldn't. 

You have an incredible need to do this for yourself. It's a matter of your health. I usually advocate for both people being on board with something, but when it comes to issues of health, I don't think you need the other person's okay to do what you need to do.


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## tamara24

Thanks,Major Misfit

I have not been able to take care of myself for a long time. He SAYS, he gets it but thinks I should try hormone therapy before making such a big decision. Our mutual friend is a drrug rep and tried to explain that it would not work with my conditions and I might lose ten pounds or so, but not do what I am looking for.

I guess I feel like he has been so removed from me making all the decisions on both kids chronic conditions and my own, that now he chooses to participate and I don't feel he deserves a full vote. We are supposed to be working on things, so I don't want him to feel like I am disregarding his input. But. On the other hand, I know. That I need to do it for me.I want to feel better, have energy and be here when my kids have kids. At the rate I am going, I am 41 going on 70. 

The kids are getting older and yea right now,my son is ill but they are capable of doing some things for themselves.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

tamara24 said:


> I feel like here we go, he will drag his feet and make sure that I am miserable about my decision. I know we are supposed to do this mutually agree on things, but I NEED to do this for me. Should I just ignore him and go for it or push it off until we agree?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


 He can not MAKE you miserable about your decision. You can LET him affect your feelings, but they are YOUR feelings.

How are you doing on reading about boundaries?


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## major misfit

Turnera is dead on with the boundaries thing. You teach someone how to treat you, I believe this completely. You're going to have to teach your husband a new "you". He will be resistant, but you have to hold fast. Learn about those boundaries!! You will be doing YOURSELF a huge favor. 

I don't know about the whole hormone therapy thing..hormones *usually* make a woman gain weight. Guess it just depends on what the issue is, and how hormones would affect it. But only 10lbs? Not enough. You have kids with medical problems...you NEED to be around to see them through. You NEED to be around to see your grandchildren, and just live your life. You're 41? I can promise you that with each year that passes, it gets harder to get that weight off. I've struggled with weight most of my life. At one time, I was up to 256lbs. I was on blood pressure medicine then. My sister is now (at 61yo) 370lbs. She's having a whole host of issues to deal with related to her weight. And I can tell you that most doctors are going to blame EVERY SINGLE issue you have on your weight. Even those that might not be related to the weight at all. I got serious, and buckled down, and started walking and changed what I ate. I lost down to 132lbs. (was wearing a size 6) and my kids started hopping up and down that I was anorexic. Nothing about 132lbs is anorexic. I got off blood pressure meds. I felt better. It didn't "cure" my other physical problems, but that is just "is what it is" situations. 

You want that surgery? Get it. It's literally a matter of life and death for you. Maybe not now, but it will be. And learn about those boundaries. Teach him the new you.


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## turnera

Have you read The Dance of Anger yet?


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## tamara24

Turnera,
I am reading the book now.

This week has been a long one. I got sick,most likely from getting run down. Son is still having pain issues and we were back at the specialist yesterday.my house looks like elves went mad with Christmas decorations. I have tried for three days to get everything picked up and settled and I jnust can't do it.

Today, I got up, it was raining and cold. Daughter is sick. Ugh. So I texted hubby that I needed to get groceries. We went together to get what I needed. I have been clipping coupons and have been saving about 60% on the grocery bill. Then I waited until after dinner and asked what hubby had planned for Sunday. He gave me his list. Isaid in a straight voice. Hey,I would like your help from 8-12,I need you to vacuum and help move furniture around. Then I can wrap presents while you gone.

He didn't even argue and said yes. He stated he was tired and feeling run down. I stated I know, I feel the same but a couple of hours and we will be done with everything for Christmas. He agreed!I am totally shocked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

So, here is how the holiday went. We have no family other than BIL around and he is being a real jerk. So we have decided to stay out of negative areas and spend Christmas alone. I busted my rump Christmas Eve while hubby went to work until noon. When he came home, I asked he help me cut veggies and cheese,which he did. Then he stated he was tired and didn't feel good so he was going to lie down on the couch so I could wrap presents. 

When he got up, he started the typical swearing up a storm, saying inappropriate things and I nicely requested that he stop,remember the holiday...blah,blah. My son starts acting out in same manner and hubby gets ticked at son??? Then he informs the kids that he does not expect that we will be awakened at 2 am to unwrap presents and he would promptly send them back. I happen to like when the kids are excited! Not the early part, but hey it is. One day! Christmas morning comes and we are up at 6:30am. He is swearing and carrying on, griping about the stuffed front closet and how he can't get in there to put his electronic stuff in. Then swearing when putting son's Christmas present together. Daughter and I stayed in living room. I know it sounds like I am being picky but it really upsets the mood of the house when he does these little rants.plus I asked him whenwe went to bed Christmas Eve to not do that!

I am one of those people who likes to give more than get and I so love watching everyone open the gifts. THIS YEAR,however, I had two items on my list. A snuggie as I am always cold and I wanted an ereader. I hinted, justified and stated outright I would really like one. I am an avid reader and it calms me when I need to escape and plus both my kids LOVE to read and our local book store never carries the book they need for school or one they just want. I also told him, I would like one because when I have surgery, I will be in hospital four days and everyone will be at work until evening,I won't see my kids until then and it will keep me occupied.

So Christmas morning comes and I get the snuggie! Woohoo! Then I open up a pair of diamond earrings. Now I know this sounds soooo selfish. My hubby never buys me big diamonds and I am fine with that cause I am not a diamond/jewelry girl. I know he bought the earrings because I lost my favorite pair he had given me years ago this summer. He hinted around to see what I would like and I simply stated that I wanted more practical gift that I could use. I don't go anywhere to worry about diamond earrings. We had been just fooloing around and shopping for the kids one day and he stopped at the jewelry counter and showed me some earrings. I stated what I wanted again. And added that my hair is growing longer now and small hoops with little diamonds will not even show so why bother. We went to another store and he goes right to the counter. I make a point of showing him. Look,these don't even show with my hair, and the money spent on those could get other things right now as we are not loaded.he points to a bigger hoop and says how about these? I just dropped it and said yea. I knwo there are HUGE deals going on,but it was not what I wanted.

The disappointment on my face must have shown but I tried to make light of it as hey,he at least TRIED something this year.he asked me later was I upset and I said no, but he sure was determined that I was not getting an ereader and laughed. He turns around and goes,do you know how much research goes in to buying one of those? Seriously? He just spent three weeks researching a new reciever because the shipping service dropped his when he was sending it out for warranty repair? Researching an ereader is harder than that?

I feel bad because I am thankful that we were able to even get through Christmas, but I have really been focusing more and more on my needs and wants and what makes me happy. I feel guilty for even thinking about how disappointed I was,but I tried communicating and now I have diamond earrings. Now when I say diamond earrings, I got .25 carrot earring, more like chips and for 50.00 more,he could have got me what I wanted but. It was too taxing to research them? Am I in some stage where I feel I deserve to be listened to and my needs need to be more fullfilled because I felt like yesterday was a real love buster after he said that to me.it has always been about him and the kids,so why can't it be about me just once? Am I in some selfish mode people fall into?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

tamara, do you need me to go through your last post and show you all the places where YOU should have been doing things differently, where YOU contributed to your own unhappiness? I see it plain as day because I, too, played the silent, martyr, sweet, victim role, just like you're doing. And I'm here to tell you that, even after 30 years of marriage...they DON'T GET IT. They don't suddenly 'understand' and become the husband you want because...you don't tell the truth.

Men are not mind readers. You have to spell it out. Yes, you hinted around about your ereader and about proper behavior and about him helping and about kids, I could go on... But you tap-danced around it like crazy, HOPING he would 'get it' and surprise you. And he didn't. And now you have another lousy holiday to stuff in your martyr pillow and carry around to soothe you.

How's that working for you?


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## tamara24

I guess I don't understand,or I am missing something. I have been more assertive in the last six months than I have in years,I think I did it correctly and I still am wrong.

I took the earrings back today. I told him last night that it really hurt my feelings that he would complain about researching it when he can do it for his intrests. He stated that was not it but he looked into it and was looking at all these extra gadgets that I personally do not need. He on the other hand, wants me to get one with all the new improvements. I told him I never wanted earrings. He stated to take them back and we will look into an ereader. 

I didn't just hint though. I took him and SHOWED him the model. I feel like it was more about what he wanted me to get. I don't want to be doing this another ten years.

He still insists that I need to wait on surgery. I,however, did call and schedule the first appt. That I can make, requested the letter from my physician. I plan mid FEB. AS MY TARGET date. I am not going back. I want to move forward.

I know I can not be this stupid,Turnera. I thought I did well expressing my needs, but your correct that it did not work. I do not look as myself as a martyr, but I look at my mom and see it as plain as day. One of the catalysits that made me want to change was looking at how unhappy she is and I was heading down the same road.

How do ya stop it? Other than taking a big stamp and hitting him up the forehead with it, I don't know how or what I am doing wrong? It is not working for me, nor do I want it to, I just want some of my needs to be met. I am so tired of doing for everybody. I know my kids can't help medical issues, but good grief, I just want to have some normalcy for a change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

tamara, fwiw, you ARE doing remarkably well. I'm just trying to help you cut through the moss growing in your brain - growing there because your entire marriage's worth of soothing, of fixing, of going with your own needs unmet. 

These become HABITS. BIG habits. And not easy to change. Believe me, I know! That's why I'm going to highlight what you could have changed. Someone did this for me once, and BOY did it open my eyes. I hope it helps you, too, so you can start seeing these things as they happen and change course.

This may be harsh, but I think it's what you need to hear. Don't hate me. 



tamara24 said:


> So, here is how the holiday went. We have no family other than BIL around and he is being a real jerk. So we have decided to stay out of negative areas and spend Christmas alone. I busted my rump Christmas Eve while hubby went to work until noon. {You could have waited, and not done anything until he was helping you; what gets done, gets done.} When he came home, I asked he help me cut veggies and cheese,which he did. Then he stated he was tired and didn't feel good so he was going to lie down on the couch so I could wrap presents. {You could have said "I get that you are tired, but so am I; I expect you to help me give our children a good Christmas; PLEASE get up and help me." And then you could have STOPPED wrapping presents until he did; what's the worst that could happen? People get unwrapped gifts? "I'm sorry, MrTamara didn't help, so I didn't have time to wrap everthing." - and HE gets a dose of consequences (his image).}
> 
> When he got up, he started the typical swearing up a storm, saying inappropriate things and I nicely requested that he stop,remember the holiday...blah,blah. {Why did you not STOP him and say "This is unacceptable, I will not tolerate you swearing at me or my children; please leave the house if you cannot be respectful"?}
> 
> {And why did you ask him NICELY? Was HE nice when he was swearing at you? Please explain why HE gets to be a jackass? Your more appropriate boundary would be to say "I am taking the children and leaving until you can learn how to speak respectfully to us."}
> 
> My son starts acting out in same manner and hubby gets ticked at son??? Then he informs the kids that he does not expect that we will be awakened at 2 am to unwrap presents and he would promptly send them back. I happen to like when the kids are excited! Not the early part, but hey it is. One day! {Then why did you not defend what YOU like? Why did you remain silent on YOUR likes/needs? Are his more important? If not, do not LET him be the only person who dictates what takes place in YOUR home.}
> 
> Christmas morning comes and we are up at 6:30am. He is swearing and carrying on, griping about the stuffed front closet and how he can't get in there to put his electronic stuff in. {Another missed opportunity for you to calmly and politely say "Please do not swear in front of the children. If you have an issue with the closet, I will help you clean it out after Christmas holidays are done with; until then, I expect you to treat us with respect and let us enjoy this morning in peace."}
> 
> Then swearing when putting son's Christmas present together. {Again, you now know the drill - no swearing in front of children; this needs to be YOUR boundary - every time he swears, you tell him you are removing the kids from the abuse and swoop up the kids and leave the room; he'll figure it out.}
> 
> Daughter and I stayed in living room. {Because...why? To not be in the line of fire? To let him continue to rant without HIM having any consequences? What did he just learn? That he has the right to treat you all like crap, because all you do is hide and say nothing.}
> 
> I know it sounds like I am being picky {this is you APOLOGIZING for HIS rudeness; stop it!} but it really upsets the mood of the house when he does these little rants. {of course it does because he is showing ALL of you that he is more important than any of you, and you, as the mom, are TEACHING your children that this is so; is that a good message to teach them? If it upsets you, think how badly it affects the kids - you and he are their WORLD, and they are learning that in their world, their feelings mean nothing and they should live in fear of upsetting the big bad dad; after all, MOM does, too, because she says nothing and does not protect them from him. By the way, saying things like "upsets the mood of the 'house' is your way of not accepting responsibility; best to stop thinking in terms of exact feelings and consequences}
> 
> plus I asked him whenwe went to bed Christmas Eve to not do that! {You 'asked' him? Are you not JUST as valuable in this marriage as he is? Then why do you have to ASK him to act like a civil human being? Until you start ACTING like you deserve as much respect as you afford him, he will have no reason to respect you.}
> 
> I am an avid reader and it calms me when I need to escape and plus both my kids LOVE to read and our local book store never carries the book they need for school or one they just want. {Are you aware that these words are the exact same words that an abuse victim uses? Think about it. What should you have to be 'escaping' from, if you were in a healthy, respect-filled marriage?}
> 
> Then I open up a pair of diamond earrings. Now I know this sounds soooo selfish. {I spoke just like you about 4 years ago - I apologized to anonymous posters for daring to have feelings and wants! How selfish of me! Do you see how far you have been pushed down by his thumb, that you now feel GUILTY for wanting what you want? I would even go so far as to guess that he has, over time, TOLD you that you are being selfish for speaking out loud about what you want.}
> 
> My hubby never buys me big diamonds and I am fine with that cause I am not a diamond/jewelry girl. I know he bought the earrings because I lost my favorite pair he had given me years ago this summer. He hinted around to see what I would like and I simply stated that I wanted more practical gift that I could use. I don't go anywhere to worry about diamond earrings. We had been just fooloing around and shopping for the kids one day and he stopped at the jewelry counter and showed me some earrings. I stated what I wanted again. And added that my hair is growing longer now and small hoops with little diamonds will not even show so why bother. We went to another store and he goes right to the counter. I make a point of showing him. Look,these don't even show with my hair, and the money spent on those could get other things right now as we are not loaded.he points to a bigger hoop and says how about these? I just dropped it and said yea. I knwo there are HUGE deals going on,but it was not what I wanted. {So, you tried to speak up and were rebuffed, and you GAVE UP. He knows you give up (even if only subconsciously) and knows if he keeps pushing, he always gets what HE wants. Even in this case, where he is trying to please you (kudos to him for that, btw), he STILL wants what HE wants and disregards what YOU want. (boy, do I know THAT part!) Why? BECAUSE YOU GIVE UP. You play the martyr; you say what you want, even push it, give up because he doesn't respond, and then cocoon yourself in the warm blanket of victimhood. Trust me, I've been living there for 30 years; I KNOW how good it feels to be the 'good' guy and get to blame it all on HIM.}
> 
> The disappointment on my face must have shown but I tried to make light of it {Why? Why does HE deserve to get a pass when you made it so obvioius how to please you, and he disrespected you by IGNORING you? Tell me why? I'll tell you why - because YOU CAUSED HIM TO BE THAT WAY by allowing him to get off the hook by swallowing YOUR own needs and wants and making sure he doesn't 'feel bad.' Is that helping you? Him? Anyone?} as hey,he at least TRIED something this year.
> 
> he asked me later was I upset and I said no {Again, WHY? He GAVE you an opportunity to tell him the truth and you swallowed your feelings. How does that help anyone? He's not stupid; he KNOWS you're unhappy, but you, by not telling him the truth, only served to (1) solidify him feeling bad because he doesn't hear it from you and (2) ensure that he cannot figure out how to do it right.}, but he sure was determined that I was not getting an ereader and laughed {I'm confused. Did he say that? Or is that you disrespecting him by 'interpreting' what he's feeling? Did he laugh after he said that, or did he laugh because he wanted to please you but didn't, and now he has no clue what he did wrong and is feeling stupid so he laughs?}. He turns around and goes,do you know how much research goes in to buying one of those? Seriously? He just spent three weeks researching a new reciever because the shipping service dropped his when he was sending it out for warranty repair? Researching an ereader is harder than that? {This is you blaming HIM, when you are really mad at yourself for not telling him the truth. Is it just possible that what he really meant was, there are now so many ereaders that he was afraid he would get you one you didn't really want, so he chose the safe route and bought you something he KNOWS you like, because you already had some? At any rate, blaming him allows you to remain the victim, and him the cad; is that improving your marriage?}
> 
> I feel bad because I am thankful that we were able to even get through Christmas, but I have really been focusing more and more on my needs and wants and what makes me happy. I feel guilty for even thinking about how disappointed I was,but I tried communicating and now I have diamond earrings. Now when I say diamond earrings, I got .25 carrot earring, more like chips and for 50.00 more,he could have got me what I wanted but. It was too taxing to research them? Am I in some stage where I feel I deserve to be listened to and my needs need to be more fullfilled because I felt like yesterday was a real love buster after he said that to me.it has always been about him and the kids,so why can't it be about me just once? Am I in some selfish mode people fall into? {Again, I was say in his defense, that MANY men do what he just did; they live in fear of 'getting it wrong' with their wives (since wives expect them to be able to mind read, lol), and so screw up while still trying to make their wives happy - they simply pick the route that makes the most sense to them; i.e., gets them from being less in trouble. IMO, that's what your DH did - got you something he figured he KNEW you wanted, since you already had a pair once, rather than risk getting you the wrong ereader and making you unhappy. But in the end, because of the way YOU communicate with him, he hasn't got a clue. And because you take the safe route and don't have these hard discussions with him (not to swear, what your needs are, etc.), he spends all his time guessing how to make you happy, while you stay wrapped up in your victimhood snuggie, while he's in the doghouse.
> 
> And all this can be avoided. If you start being honest, and start enforcing boundaries. The two exact things I was told to do YEARS ago, but it took me this long to catch on. Learn from my mistakes, ok? Set these two things as your goals, and you'll be surprised how fast your marriage turns around.}


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## tamara24

Thank you, Turnera. It really opened my eyes to a lot of things.the last two days have been really bad and seperating preys on my mind constantly.

As I mentioned earlier, we did not celebrate Christmas with his brother. There is a family argument between me and his wife and even though the BIL knows she lied, he doesn't want to say anything to have to listen to her. In August, I tried to put out the olive branch and she was a real b###. Now we live thirty minutes away and we can not see our niece/godchild. I find that stupid. BIL was coming over to our house to escape her and would spend the whole day and evening just to stay away from his own home. Some stupid stuff happened and tensions are high. I expected hubby would discuss this with brother last night as they met for dinner. I had no issues of them meeting but I asked hubby not to drink tons and drive home. He stated he had no plans to do that and would be home by 8:30/9.

At 10:15, he calls and states he is on way. I could tell he had been drinking. He gets home and is talking up a storm. I asked why he had not called/texted me that he was going to be late.he said he didn't remember telling me a time and sorry(man have I heard that enough) then he promptly goes to bed. At nearly 1 in the morning,my phone starts ringing. It is the police, as there has been recent robberies and our garage door was open. Hubby did not close it. He gets up this am and doesn't get why I was so mad??? Then states he didn't drink that much. Yea right. So he leaves for workk and basically is hung over and fighting cold form weather changing. He comes home two hours later just dying and goes to bed.

I basically ignored him and did my thing. Later this evening,I asked if he discussed the issues with his bro as I am really freaking tired of it. He states ,oh he knows and just doesn't want to discuss it. So basically they did nothing! Yet, I do not let my family do that crap to him! This just makes me want to make plans to leave. Even more. If he can't stick up for his wife and family,then let him stay with them!

I am going to reread your post, and try to impliment them. I am moving forward and at this point I don't have any feelings if he stays or doesn't. 

I think I am going to buy MY ereader in the morning! Any thoughts Turnera on the family issue becoming to much on our marraige?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You took the earrings back. What is stopping you from buying the ereader?

The family issue...is YOU letting it control your life. It is NOT your issue, not even your family's issue. It is your HUSBAND'S issue with his BROTHER. Who cares? Drop it. You are creating issues that don't affect your family.


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## tamara24

I researched the ereader and decided what I wanted for myself yesterday so I. Am going today to get it. I. Knew it was the one but I wanted to make sure and researched it more.

The BIL bothers me cause I have kept my mouth shut for 14 years out of respect for my BIL. His wife is nuts. There are some serious mental issues going on. When we moved because of a job oppurtunity for my husband, she had to inform me EVERYTIME she saw me, they were thinking of moving here first. WHO CARES. Both were eaten up with jealousy that we moved to the point my BIL wouldn't stay at my house ten minutes so I could get home to help me move a box when I was by myself. Husband moved six months prior. Now they are here, living in million dollar home and BIL asked me to help him get it completley painted, carpets cleaned and and house cleaned prior to SIL and daughter moving in. I gave him numbers and had my friend paint the whole house. Helped SIL get dream job and she refused to tell me if she got it. My BIL told me she had it two weeks and didn't. Want me to know?WTF? I called and asked BIL when is she gonna tell me? I had gotten her a special present and was waiting to mail it,what was the big deal? She apparently eavesdropped on the call and sent me two page email and five minute voice mail telling me there was no secret that BIL asked her not to tell me. Hello, HE told me two weeks ago! She lied and he let her send me that crapp. So I had enough and just told her how I felt after I had gone out of my way. I refused to do xmas last year at their house because after helping them basically move right in, I have never been invited to the house. Yet hubby can go,cause he can do all this extra work on things that BIL can't do. I don't think hubyy should goand he should tell his brother to deal with his wife. BIL and I have always gotten along,but this has created a huge wedge between us because he doesn't want to deal with his wife. So now MIL and sister are all over me about how can I be this way at Christmas and we know SIL is like that so I should just bite my tongue and deal with it for sake of the brothers. Not once does hubby say anything in my defense. That is why I am so mad,iikt is his family!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Again, who cares? My husband sees his batty mother ONE time a year, though she lives in the same city as us, and that's only because she's at his sister's house on Christmas Eve when we visit his sister. We just choose not to deal with dysfunctional people who bring us down. 

I get that you're missing out on your niece, but it is YOUR choice whether to deal with her parents or not. Again, you choose how much drama you let into your life. And, honestly, it sounds like you are getting just as much out of all this as they are. After all, you're the sane one, right? They make you look good. But is that the best way to achieve that?

I have an assignment. My DD20 taught me this, actually, who decided to do this with her Facebook account to get out of the drama in her life (perpetuated by others). 

Go dark. For one month. Tell everyone in his family that you and your family are taking a break from everyone and everything for one month to focus on yourselves. You will (maybe) check back in a month to see if you missed anything important.

Then DO it. Go dark. Release the toxic mania from your lives and see what life is like without it. You will be surprised at the new perspective you gain on what's really important.


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## tamara24

I have reread all that you mentioned all day yesterday, thought about it and gong black is not an option with sonsmedical condition but I can let go of the drama.

I sent an email to BIL explaining exactly how I felt and that I no longer cared to be in that drama and that I wished him and his family well.I am letting it go.
I informed the hubby that I have decided the kids and I will not be visiting his dad and step mom when they arrive as he has never been a grandparent and he is absolutley rude. We will not participate in his verbal abuse anymore.

I informed hubby that I will not tolerate him disrespecting me and my kids and Christmas was ridiculas. I will not stay in this environment with. The kids if he can't control his behavior. Adhd and not feeling good is not an excuse to make the rest of us uncomfortable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Wow! I am super impressed!


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## tamara24

Well my letter to BIL didn't go so well. He called my hubby and told him I was a fu+&%$# liar and that his wife would not say the things that I have told him.yes,she did. I had no reason to lie. My hubby let him have it and told him that he heard her say things too. It really ticks me off when BIL KNOWS she lies and everything has to be a secret. But I responded back to him and told him that he had every right to belive his wife as he has to live with her. I don't care what he does next as I have let it goooo.

My niece and nephew came for the weekend and we had a blast. My hubby who usually doesn't do anything, was involved all weekend and even told me he had such a great time. We had a fight on Thursday and I told him that I did want a divorce because he does not understand me and I guess I can not let go of the last twelve years of him being totally absent and now he thinks his six months of trying should make up of years of lonliness. I feel lonely now and he is here. He is trying but kissing him or him trying to hold me feels akward. He told me that he realizes what he did and wants to be there now. He suggested marraige counseling. I don't care to go. Last time, he didn't like what was said and quit going. I just feel like it is too late. He should have been there a long time ago. If he would have stuck up for me with his family,been a dad, and participated in our marraige. I would have attempted to work this out. He said I haven't given him a chancein the last six months..maybe he is right but I have to get off this crisis mode all the time. 

I feel like I have gone dead inside.all I can think about is working on me and the kids. I don't see the hubby there. Is this a sign?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I've been there myself. You CAN come back from it, but the first thing that has to happen is that both of you have to stick to total radical honesty. Work up from there.


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## tamara24

Tonight my husband scheduled a marraige counseling session with our parish priest. I am not sure how I feel about this as the last priest informed me I needed to forgive hubby from having the EA and be a good wife. It was my duty.

I am trying to be patient. He bought me a kindle last week. He asked me out to lunch today. I think he felt bad cause his dad is in town and gave our Christmas gifts. I got a medical encyclopedia from 1998 that came from a thrift store. I just don't even care. His brother has not made any attempt to right his wrongs and yet my hubby talks to him on a daily basis. I feel this is being disloyal to me.

Hopefully this priest will have words of wisdom........
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Whatever you do, do NOT cave in to what either of those MEN say you should do.


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## tamara24

Well it turns out that the priest apparently forgot his appointment. Hubby mighty distraught as it made him look bad. I took opportunity to do emotional questionairre that evening.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

EA lot of things have happened this week. First, hubby's dad came from out of state. He is a total user. When he realized hubby was not going to repair his car for free,he informed hubby that we would see them once out of a two week visit. They also brought Christmas presents. They are sooo cheap. His wife(stepmom to hubby) called me the day before they came, all flustered as they had not gotten anything for my son. I stated he is goingto be a teenager,money or gift card. He was the only one that made out. He got fifty dollar certificate for Christmas and birthday. My daughter got a used perfume bottle(no perfume in it) and a nail set from dollar store. I got a medical book(as I am earning my medical degree with the kids. They said this to me) it is dated from 1988. My hubby got a book too. Both came from a thrift store. Hubby's disappointment in his father is getting really huge.

Hubby upset over the priest forgetting appointment. The marraige builders questionairre for emotional needs really helped with understanding not only my feelings but his. I think he sees what I mean after his dad's visit. He has repeated the same behaviors.

He has started helping out with the kids, and household chores. He says he wants to be a better man. But I don't think it is that easy. Last night he brought a glass of water into living room. When he sat it down,it tipped and spilled into the floor. He blamed a piece of paper for tilting it,then he goes into kitchen,freaks out that somebody used the last paper towel and didn't replace it, then he gets mad garbage is way past full. I waited until he stopped carrying on like a mad man and pointed out that this was nothing. You spilled some water,so wht? Just grab a towel and clean it up! It is not anyone's fault. He sat there stewing and then he says I am sorry that he made me uncomfortable. I question wether he really got it, but this is a deal breaker for me. I see my daughter doing this. I feel if you can't deal with the small stuff, there is no way I can talk to you about the big stuff.

I see that I am changing and voicing my needs more. By the way,I got my kindle! Woo hoo! I was like a kid in a candy store! I LOVE it. I made sure I thanked him and he was very pleased.I am not sure if it really was the gift, but the fact I voiced what I wanted and didn't back down and say take the money,pay a bill. I am so sick of being the marter, I really want to do better for myself. Today, I found out that my insurance covers a year gym membership at Gold's gym. I am going today to sign up!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Great news all around! I, too, am speaking up. Just this week we had real conversations about money, something I'd hidden from for 30 years; it was so freeing to be a real adult in a real conversation with him about it, AND to be heard and NOT yelled at!

Quick thought about the anger at the spilled glass: This may not apply to him but a lot of people, when they make a mistake, blow up in anger to hide their embarrassment or shame.

Have you ever considered if he has Toxic Shame?


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## tamara24

I am not sure what toxic shame is.

I do know hubby never has felt he is good enough. His childhood sucked, he overheard his mother tell the attorney at their divorce/custody hearings that she didn't care about hubby just take her ex for all he is worth. 
Found out his father dresses as a woman and kept it a secret. Then at Christmas his dad tells him they are putting on plays and he is a woman. His wife(stepmom) thinks this is funny and all just a game. He has a female name and has been running errands dressed like that. he says it is for fun with the plays but we know it goes farther than that and this is his way of doing it and getting out of the closet without telling the truth.

I know hubby feels like he is not earning enough to support family but we have two chronically ill kids,no one can do everything to support them! We just do the best we can. I think it makes him feel less of a man as his brother is very successful.

Hubby blows up in anger over little things like this all the time. When he does it,it is like he can't just take responsibiity for it and move on. He has to find someone or something to blame it on.his dad does this too. When the kids do something, he freaks out the same way. Then makes comments like he always does this. I could care less,if you drop it,clean it up! No biggie. My parents would beat me senseless or I would get a knock on the head (like a knock on the door) by my mother. I refuse to do that to my kids. I know my daughter is more sensitive to this than son. She burst into tears for dropping one of my favorite plates. And freezes like she is going to be clobbered(although she NEVER has). I just tell her, I can replace it, I can't replace her. It doesn't matter,she still cries for an hour. I think this is cause hubby would freak out about it in the pst.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

A person with toxic shame spends his whole life worrying about whether people will find out the awful truth: that they are a fraud, worthless, unworthy of love, and to be put down. They spend their whole life putting on a front. And deflecting whenever they do something that could get them in trouble, like the water. Anger is the best deflection for them because it turns the other person into having to defend themselves or, at least, staying out of his way.

Some info (but the best thing to do is read "Healing The Shame That Binds You," by Bradshaw):

Neurotic Syndromes of Shame - 
Toxic shame is an all pervasive sense that I am flawed. It is a belief that we are worthless and defective as a human being. It is more than just a fleeting feeling of unworthiness, it is an internal sense of falling short. If we experience toxic shame, it is difficult to recognize. As Bradshaw says, "A shame based person will guard against exposing his inner self to others, but more significantly, he will guard against exposing himself to himself."

- Internalization of Shame - 
Internalization of shame involves at least 3 processes:

1) Identification with Shame-Based Models

The need to identify with someone, to belong is one of our most basic human needs. Second only to self-preservation. This begins 
with our primary caregivers and significant others. When children have shame-based caregivers and significant others, they identify with them. This is the first step in internalizing shame. 

2) Abandonment: The Legacy of Broken Mutuality

Children find love, acceptance and identity in the mirroring eyes of their parents or primary caregivers. Abandonment can include this 
lack or loss of positive mirroring, not just physical abandonment. Besides physical desertion and lack of mirroring, abandonment 
includes any of the following:

- Neglect
- Abuse of any kind
- Enmeshment into the needs of the parents

3) Interconnection of Memory Imprints

Shaming experiences are recorded in a child's memory banks. As Bradshaw explains, "Because the victim has no time or support to 
grieve the pain of the broken mutuality, his emotions are repressed and the grief is unresolved." Any future experience which even vaguely resembles the original shame-based trauma can easily TRIGGER the words, sights, sounds, smells or other senses involved in the original trauma.

- Self-Alienation and Isolation

Alienation means that you experience parts of yourself that are alien to you. For example, I was shamed for crying during my childhood abuse. Therefore, feeling grief and crying became an alienated part of myself. When ever I feel grief now, I often experience toxic shame.

This is why it is so important to lean how to heal the toxic shame that binds us to our past trauma in order to adequately process 
these unresolved emotions.

- Shame as the False Self

"Because the exposure of self to self lies at the heart of neurotic shame, escape from the self is necessary." This is accomplished by 
creating a false self.

- Shame as Co-Dependency

As discussed on the Nurturing Parent page, people who are co-dependent try to get their inner child's needs met through another 
adult and/or they focus all of their nurturing abilities on other adults (usually a significant other) who are trying to get these needs met through others. People who are co-dependent have no inner life. 

They lack the ability to get their needs met from within themselves.

Therefore, happiness and feelings of self-validation are found outside themselves.

- Shame as Borderline Personality

Many psychiatrists today see many types of mental illness as rooted in neurotic shame. Borderline Personality involves self-image
disturbance, difficulty identifying and expressing one's own thoughts and difficulty with self-assertion.

- Shame as the Core and Fuel of all Addiction

Toxic shame turns a person into a "human doing" rather than a human being. A person's self-worth is measured by what they DO on the outside instead of what is on the inside. Addiction is a self-fulfilling shame based behavior. One seeks mood alteration and emotion numbing with the addictive behavior. What follows is shame over one's behavior and the resulting consequences; i.e. hangover, infidelity, etc.

This toxic shame fuels the addiction and starts the process all over again.

- Shame as Guilt

Healthy guilt is at the core of our conscience. It helps us determine right from wrong. Toxic guilt carries a sense of hopelessness, since one believes they are flawed beyond repair.

- Character Disorder Syndromes of Shame

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

The narcissist is continually motivated to find perfection in everything she does. Beneath this external facade lies an emptiness. This emptiness is caused by internalized shame.

Paranoid Personality

Bradshaw believes that "the paranoid defense is a posture developed to cope with excessive shame." Any wrongdoings on the part of the paranoid person are disowned and transferred to others as kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy of the betrayal they knew was coming.

Offender/Criminal Behavior

The criminal offender "acts out" in much the same way as he was originally victimized. This is often referred to as the CYCLE of abuse. Unless we find help and healing for this victimization we are bound to carry on in the victim role, seeking out others who we instinctively know will abuse us or we will reenact it over and over again. Parents who physically or sexually abuse their children were typically abused similarly when they were young.

Grandiosity/Disabled Will

Grandiosity is a disorder of the will. It can appear in one of two extremes: in being more than human or less than human. A person with a disabled will can believe they are the best of the best or the worst of the worst. Bradshaw explains it this way: "As emotions get bound by shame, their energy is frozen, which blocks the full interaction between the mind and the will." Without the thinking mind, the will is blind and can cause severe problems, such as trying to control everything or willing in absolute extremes (all or nothing). 

- Toxic Shame as Spiritual Bankruptcy

Spirituality is about BEING. Spirituality makes us human. Toxic shame is de-humanizing. Toxic shame creates a life dominated by DOING. Since it is based on a belief that what's inside is flawed, it looks outward for self-worth and justification.


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## tamara24

Wow! I am going to have to research it today. A couple of them apply but I can also see a couple of examples fitting me. Need to mull this over!

This weekend bit the dust. Hubby's brother of course, needed his car fixed and only my hubby could look at it. It never fails that when the brother calls, my hubby is conveiently not busy at that moment. Brother decided to buy a new car,so his wife has to come to my hubby's job.Hubby is all nice to her. I am thinking WTF????? Your brother just called me a f#$$= liar and you know I did not lieand it was his wife that did and you are NICE to her? Brother stated regardless of what goes on with me he wanted to make sure that it didn't effect his relationship with his brother. I look at it as you just insulted my wife dude,knowing your wife is a living freak show,yes,it is going to effect our relationship. Not my hubby, he assures brother that they were just fine. Doesn't that just seem wrong or is it me?

I feel like there is family loyalty and hubby has choosen his side. Between dealing with his father. Who is an a--, his mother who comes from out of state(who is declared legally blind,but can see whatever she wants to) stays three weeks at a time and guess who has her? Then the deal with his brother, and his mom and aunt get on to me that I need to open my heart,we all know the way SIL is and I am seperating the family. Excuse me? If SIL has been the problem all along and we have stayed quite for brother's sake, why do I get the blame when I stand up for myself? My feelings are really hurt.

Hubby set up another meeting forTuesday with priest. I have no intention of taking this seriously at this point. If he can't be loyal to his own family,I don't see this changing. I don't care what the priest says about it being my duty and I am to forgive. Why is it, I am the one asked to change, when SIL causes all the issues. Why am I to change if hubby is continuing his loyalty to them when he knows they were wrong?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Just keep repeating that to the priest: Why is it YOU are supposed to forgive and give up what makes YOU happy, when he isn't asking your HUSBAND to give up what makes HIM happy (clinging to brother/SIL and family). 

Don't back down. Make sure the priest answers that.


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## tamara24

So met with priest tonight, he told me that I was one of the unhappiest people that he has seen in awhile. That I had to forgive hubby for EVERYTHING in rder to move forward. That since hubby has started changes, that I have to provide hubby a positive environment. 

I brought up that I have two kids with chronic medical, myself and all three of them with ADHD. I do not have time to babysit a forty year old and make sure he remembers to do the things he is supposed to do.Priest stated that I need to make a decision because I should write it out for hubby. I state no hubby has android phone with all kinds of apps that HE can be responsible of writing it down(hubby just mentioned how computer savy/electronic savy he was). Priest said that wasn't who my hubby was and I have to accept that fact or move on.

He did catch hubby in excuse making about trying not planning a date night, helping with kids,etc....

Told me family is upset with me because I am finding my personal boundries and that since I was always people pleaser, that they have a hard time dealing with me changing and crossing the boundry lines.

He didn't seem to get my point that I expected hubby to put me first and our family. He kept asking why I needed to be put first. I said because as my husband, I put him first except when kids were sick. He stated that was why my hubby cheated and got himself into messes was because I didn't give him attention. I said, that is true but I had two kids under the age of two with chronic health conditions. Since hubby couldn't hold either of them, couldn't care for them, when did the priest feel that I should have neglected my kids to give him the attention he needed?

He then stated some people were meant to never have kids. I totally disagree with that. My kids are not a mistake and if hubby feels he can't be a father, he can't be a hubby either.

The priest set up another meeting and wants me to forget and forgive the past. Hubby needs to work on listening and learning more about his ADHD.

Seriously, again, I must provide hubby with all the encouragement, take care of the kids, all the housework, bills,and everything.How much do men think women can actually handle. 

After I explained why I felt that I can't let go of the past because he does really well and then goes right back to behavior we were working on. The priest told me that I am a victim and until I can stop being the victim and support hubby then I am doomed.

Yep again, support the hubby!!

I didn't back down, gave recent examples of what I was talking about. I stayed calm, and never let the priest run over me but I felt like I was in an intervention for treating my hubby bad.


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## turnera

OMFG!

As much as I know it will fall on deaf ears, you should REPORT that priest for being INCOMPETENT!

OMFG! What a huge, stinking, reeking pile of HOOEY!

It's ALL about the MAN. The woman should ALWAYS SUPPPORT THE MAN! The woman shouuld STOP COMPLAINING AND JUST SUPPORT THE MAN!

Hon. do this one thing: tell your husband that you have given his 'priest' enough chances. Tell him that, if he wants to stay married to you, he will NOW go to YOUR therapist - one who actually went to COLLEGE for a PSYCHOLOGY degree, unlike a priest who was raised in, and believes in, a MAN-DOMINATED world.

I'm gonna go throw up now.


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## tamara24

Hubby and I discussed the whole event after I typed the event on here. I made it clear that I am not responsible to babysit him, he is 40 years old and I am not his mom.

I get the victim thing as we discussed the victim thing before, but I merely told him what has happened and what I am not allowing to go back to. I don't think I am a victim nor have I been a marter. But I will not allow myself to get lost again and deal with inappropriate behaviors because I am too scared to do anything about it.

I feel that I am certainly not perfect but hubby needs to own up to his responsibilities and realize after18 years, I can't forget in a day what happened. As I see that he is truly committed to me and our family. I need my physical and emotional needs met, and I need to focus on me for a change.

Hubby agreed the remarks about the kids and how some people are not meant to be parents was wrong. Hubby is all proud that after nine months the kids are responding to him. That is all neat and dandy but now they are old enough to fend for themselves, they are independent and certainly not half the work of bottles diaper bags,crying, and the real hard work. But his inability to literally help with any of our kids can not be explained away as oh, I had adhd. When our son was born, the doctor broke two spinal sacks in my spine. I lost spinal fluid and had to have three spinal taps to fix it. I didn't have the oppurtunity to just say well I have spinal headaches and my back hurts like hell, I can't deal with the baby! That was MY child and he needed to be cared for. I think he is using adhd as the entire excuse for all his behavior.


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## turnera

So what are you going to do about it?

What are your boundaries?


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## tamara24

I am not going to take care of everything and complain about it. I will ask specifically for things I need help with. I am not letting people do things that I am not comfortable with just to save anybody from confrontation. I will voice my needs and wants with clarity.

I will not be another mom to a forty year old man. he has one. I will not let him disrespect me or my kids. He is responsible for his actions and choices and if he makes bad choices then he has to be able to deal with the consequences with those choices. I will not tolerate his family being rude and disrespectful to me anymore. 

I have not figured out all my boundries, but I THINK that it is because I don't know what I want as of yet. I am just finding out myself and who I am. I am also making a list of things to hit the priest with next week. If he feels I should be supportive of my hubby then when is the hubby to be supportive of me?


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## turnera

Have you read The Dance of Anger?


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## tamara24

reading it, not finished yet since son in and out of hospital. You would think I could have finished by now.


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## turnera

It should help with that. Good luck!


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## tamara24

Finished the dance of anger. I reread it as the first time, I felt I only skimmed and got very little from it. It was me to a T! I was brought up not to have any feelings,never contradict men, and be a pleaser. When I first read it I felt that it was going to be another,women are helpless and men dominate books. It really isn't. I also see myself in the triangles with the kids and hubby,hubby and family.

Hubby. Set up another MC meeting with the priest. I agreed that I would go to another meeting with him but if he says things that I do not feel is appropriate to the situation,then we will not continue with him. Hubby agreed as he was not keen on the priest either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Why can't you just go to a real psychologist? IMO, priests have no business trying to save marriages. They are not sufficiently trained. And look at what he did to you!

I felt the same about the book. Such good insight.


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## tamara24

Well, the priest didn't show again,pretty sad for a catholic priest. Hubby was mad and I was glad. I didn't care to go to him but I agreed one more chance.

I don't think I will have to worry about it now. I will write more later!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

Had an interesting last few days. Today was my appt. With physcologist for the weight loss surgery. I learned a lot about my personality. She told me I can't have the surgery until I show her the I went to a physciatrist and a therapist. She said I live in a constant state of panic and I try to control the factors in my life that I can not possibly control. So my anxiety level is way to high to undergo a life changing event without being put on meds. She told me that I hold things in and then I explode(not suprised). She thinks I don't know how to relax and I need to find ways to calm myself and find different activities to relieve stress.

Hubby stressed out over priest bailing. He wants to sit and talk tonight about things that happened and that has been unresolved because he didn't tell the truth. He also made plans to take me out for Valentines Day. Wasn't necessarily romantic but it was fun.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Wow, that's great! I know it doesn't seem like it, it's not what you wanted to hear, but honestly? I think her advice is SPOT ON. Something we ALL could benefit from following. How do you feel?


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## tamara24

I was very upset at first because I have my plan that I wanted to go by. She explained that I try to control everything because I lived in caous as a kid. Now, with two kids with chronic illnesses, my body stays in stress modes and I am waiting for the next shoe to drop.

She also explained that the reason I get upset over issues with SIL and BIL is because I am a people pleaser and it bothers me that I let them walk all over me and I keep quite. I am a 41 year old woman and I should not. Just agree to keep from fighting. If I do not agree with something,I should state that right then so I don't let it brew.

She was very right on. It was almost scary. She did assure me that I was not crazy. She stated that she was wlling to bet that if I got the anxiety under control, that I would do better losing the weight and having a better chance of keeping it off. Stress hormones stay in your body for three days and if you have chronic streess daily, those hormones are in flight mode and storing the fat instead of burning it,even if I was dieting and excersizing correctly.

Hubby had a longg talk about how we ended up in this mess. He admitted that he was selfish and looking back that I was correct in everything I asked of him. He also told me his mom and brother told him that he did more than his share. I asked him, if he looked at the fact his mom was a horrible mom and to this day states she would not have kids if she had to do it all over. His brother hates his wife.. so why would you you believe what they have to say. They have no idea what a real relationship involves. Hubby also told me what he wanted out of the relationship and what he was willing to do to change things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Wow, I am just amazed at how MUCH you have gotten this past week! Good job! I'm so hopeful for you!


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## tamara24

So here is an update over the last few days.. Tuesday, daughter has terrible sinus infection upon returning home from school. I had to take her to immediate care. It was so packed,it took us an hour and a half to be seen. I texted hubby to get son as everyone is coughing and hacking and the last thing I need is for son to be sick. Hubby suggests that we head to resturant next door after daughter is finished and he stuck around the area with son until we finished. Normally, off he would go home and expect dinner to be fixed upon my return.

We have discussed the issues with his dysfunctional family giving him advice and telling him he does more than his share. Of course, they get his version and he left out facts like the EA, flirtations,unable to handle his own kid so I can go to grocery store. It really irks me as none of them have a happy normal relationship but they felt compelled to advise him. Of course, he has no real friends to talk to and the ones he had before he moved, I found out lost total repect for him as they had seen him carry on the EA and flirt without my knowing. I found that out when I flew home in Oct.

Saw the physciatrist today. She put me on anti anxiety meds and treating me for depresion. She said she did not know how I have coped this long without having suicidal thoughts between the anxiety and depression. That didn't make me feel any better. I see the therapist on Monday.

Hubby being tremendously supportive, talking and agreed that as I am and was supposed to be his best friend then. If I state that I am in trouble,need help,or not feeling well,then he should. Pick up the slack. On the same token, I would do the same for him. He is supposed to be a help mate. I explained that I do not feel like sex when I am up all night for three nights,handling the house and taking kids to doc appts. If he helped I would feel more inclined. On Tuesday night, he offered to take both kids home so I could pick up daughter's new med. When I got home, he had daughter finishing homework,son in shower and he was folding the laundry!

Do you think he got it????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Sounds like it!


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## tamara24

Just another update.......

So I went to the doc and therapist and actually feel a bit better. The med is kicking in and I have a lot more energy and smiling more. Only issue is that I felt so good, that I have spent the last two days recovering from cleaning the house like a mad woman. I guess it is about balancing it all out.

Last night I went to the second required support group meeting prior to surgery and by next week I will have all my requirements done and waiting on the insurance for final approval. I pray the approve it and pay for the majority of it as financially it will be a strain. I met some really nice people and I am hoping I will make some new friends out of this as well.

Aahhh the hubby....one step forward, two steps back. I purchased the weight watchers scale a month ago and left in the box. I wanted to use it through the whole weight loss process. Hubby and daughter have bugged the crap out of me to open it as they wanted to use it. I clearly stated no to my daughter as she has the eating issues and I don't want her focusing on her weight and hopping on the scale all the time. Hubby just kept asking about it. So yesterday, I pull the scale out and use it for the first time. It is pretty accurate to the one used at my doc's office. So last night, I come home after the meeting to find out hubby let daughter weigh herself and he weighed himself and the dogs. No biggie. Although I am miffed he let daughter weigh herself after we had discussed it. I also made a point of saying I did not want anything recorded on the scale.. several times,I mentioned this. So this morning hubby comes into the kitchen and says hey your person one on the scalei programmed it. What did I just tell him! I flipped. I waited to the kids left and I stated. I asked you not to touch the scale. It was mine. I bought it for my personal use. I have to. Share everything in this house with each of you and I asked you not to touch the scale. Not that I mind them using the scale, but I had reasons. He goes on about it won't record info,blah,blah and he didn't see the big deal. I stated because I specifically asked you NOT to touch it or program it. You did exactly what you wanted to do with no consideration of my feelings or my request. That is a love buster! Also yesterday, I reminded him that I needed to attendthe meeting. He calls me up late afternoon and says when are you leaving? I tell him around six as I had an errand to run and I had wanted to get there a bit early as we were surrounded by thunderstorms. He asked what was for dinner. I tell him I am putting baked potatoes in the oven and just as they are done, put the fish sticks in and microwave a veggie. He says ok. An hour later he calls back. Hey, if you aren't leaving until six, can't you put the fish sticks in the oven and stuff. That really got my goat. I mean for crying out loud stick the fish sticks in the oven!he comes home and the potatoes were not finished enough for me to add the fish sticks, so I tell him what time to put them in, take them out and when to start the veggie. I had to repeat it three times. Annoyed does not cover it. 

I know it is stupid, but I am going through this for me and it is like they just take over anything I try to do for me. . Can I not have one thing that is mine? Hubby says as he is going out the door, I don't understand the big deal, but I will take it off later. He already did the damage! I want to blow my top!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Have you read The Dance Of Anger? It helps you learn how to stop this dance of you being the one everyone depends on. Very helpful.


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## tamara24

Yes, I have. I put a stop to it. It took me awhile to get it all in place,but it worked. Hopefully I won't have to do this all the time. 

I find it weird that he now agrees with me on issues that he would go around in circles. I am also finding the strength that I once had. It is nice to find this person again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

Just an update. Hubby is losing weight and seems to be a little stressed. This week was spring break for the kids. I took them to the beach,epcot, and St. Augustine. We also went to see Wicked. I usually don't do this much but I need to get moving. I am on target for surgery and I working with the therapist on the family issues.

I have been getting stronger. I did lose it last night. Hubby waited till morning to ask me what he should wea to theater. I went to find his clothes since we were planning to meet him. I got the kds dressed and he called and said he would meet us at the house. He was late,then none of the dress clothes fit him,he couldn't findsocks and began to start swearing. The tension was thick.

I stopped freaking out. I told him, look I had no intentions of you coming with us. I planned to leave to take the kids out for a nice dinner and you have ruined our plan. If you continue this behavior,I I would appreciate that you stay home. That threw him off! Then we get in the car and ihe stated we couldn't go to the resturants as we were late,just eat at the local ma and pa place. This really ticked me off! He started argueing with me. Finally I just looked at him and stated I planned to go to this particular place and it was not busy and we werestill able to enjoy a nice meal and g. We had really looked forward to this!

He seethed all the way but we were totally ignoring him. We went out and the play was just wonderful and had a great night. The old me would have stayed quiet and l,et him carry on and ruin the evening. Not sure if I did it correctly,but I felt better than I had in a long time.

I hope this is a good sign of things to come. I don't want to be demanding or the dominant person in the house but I am standing up for myself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Wow, tamara, I just learned a great lesson from you. You're my hero!


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## tamara24

And what lesson would that be? I don't know how I would have gotten past all this. We are still a work in progress. There are good days and bad. I also struggle with my health issues because it effects my lack of desire in the bedroom. I am not sure what will turn that around.

Thank you,Turnera, I appreciate you helping me though this and keeping me on track!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Well, I've had a lot of issues just like the one you described. And I've always been terrified to just say 'sorry, we're going without you' or whatever. So, if you can do it, so can I!


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## tamara24

It really put some power back into me. First,he wasn't going,then he was and then he took over my plans. THESE WERE MY PLANS! 

I guess I felt like I do everything just the kids and I anyway. If he wants to tag along on our ride,he is going to have to change along with me or get off the boat. I am ready for the changes and welcome them.I can't take the chaos anymore. I need some peace and the only person that can achieve it is me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tamara24

I got confirmation that my surgery was scheduled. I am going in May 9th. I am excited and scared at the same time. This is a big step for me. Still going through therapy.

I have discovered a lot. I found out that the more I. Rebeled against becoming my mother,tha I did so in unintensional ways by witholding sex, intimate connections and communication. Right now my mother and father are doing strange things and putting myself and my brother into a guilt trip that we are obligated to give them money and help support them. I paid for my mother a plane ticket to go see her sister that wasn't expected to live. She returned and informed me that I owed her money and she wasn't paying.I never owed her money. 

This plays on my relationship cause I see certain triggers with my hubby that remind me of my dad and it sets me off. They probably are the same things other men do, but because I am more sesitive to it, it makes me react. 

I wish I knew somebody that is going through this surgery to discuss those feelings. I met people at the support groups,but you hardly have time to chat when there are thirty people in the room.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Look for one online. I heard a story on NPR this morning about women who have some rare disease, and they all converse via facebook and some other website.


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