# The freedom of financial independence



## jld

One thing lifeistooshort has often said is that women need to be financially independent so that they can leave if they need to. I agree with this, but my own life does not bear it out. I often feel challenged by this.

Are you in a similar situation? Were you?

Feel free to share any thoughts you have on the matter. 

And remember, we are just sharing our thoughts. There is not necessarily any right or wrong way to see this. And we do not have to agree.


----------



## OpenWindows

I have never been financially dependant on a man, and wouldn't want to be. Even if I chose to stay at home, I'd want to know I had the skills to get a job and support myself if necessary.

I grew up watching my mom being abused by men she couldn't afford to leave. Or leaving anyway, and scrambling to make ends meet because she didn't have the skills for anything besides waiting tables.


----------



## arbitrator

jld said:


> One thing lifeistooshort has often said is that women need to be financially independent so that they can leave if they need to. I agree with this, but my own life does not bear it out. I often feel challenged by this.
> 
> Are you in a similar situation? Were you?
> 
> Feel free to share any thoughts you have on the matter.
> 
> And remember, we are just sharing our thoughts. There is not necessarily any right or wrong way to see this. And we do not have to agree.


*While financial security is rather important in ones life, love and commitment are far more meaningful!

After all, it is far more desirable to receive love without the benefit of monetary wealth than it is to have that monetary wealth without the benefit of love!

I should know ~ I've lived it!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ms. GP

I'm curious @jld, what are the challenges you are referring too?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SlowlyGoingCrazy

I personally need to be able to support myself but fully respect and support other's choices. 

For me it was both my Mother having to start over after her divorce and during my abusive relationship. I wasn't able to leave because I had no money, no clothes. I ended up finally just going to a shelter and starting fresh from there but I never want to do it again. 

Since then I've always made sure I could pay for myself and kids on my own.


----------



## Hope Shimmers

I've never been financially dependent on any man - in fact, the opposite has been true.

Still, I have had problems leaving bad relationships. It took me 17+ years to leave my abusive marriage, despite being completely financially independent. 

So there you go - the flip side.


----------



## jld

Ms. GP said:


> I'm curious @jld, what are the challenges you are referring too?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I feel kind of embarrassed to talk about it, but here goes . . .

I feel like I have two competing parts to my soul, maybe?

One is absolutely devoted to my husband and children. We have always lived on whatever he has made. I do what he wants done, for the most part, and feel guilty when I don't. I feel like I live to please him. 

The other part of me says that is crazy! Why didn't I study harder in high school? Why didn't I try harder in math and science classes and do a STEM degree in college? Why didn't I then work full-time my whole life, with my own income, health insurance, and retirement? Why am I not an independent woman standing completely on my own? Why am I completely dependent on a man?

My daughter is a junior in chemical engineering, doing fabulously well. She told me she will always work full-time, will always be able to leave a man. She thinks that is critical for women.

I think this, too. And yet I folded like a house of cards when Dug told me he loved me and wanted me to be a SAHM. 

So intellectually I totally agree with lifeistooshort, and admire her, and all other working moms, very much. And yet my own life is very different. 

I feel simultaneously embarrassed and trapped and yet fairly comfortable and even happy with my life choices. If that makes any sense!


----------



## Duguesclin

jld said:


> I feel kind of embarrassed to talk about it, but here goes . . .
> 
> I feel like I have two competing parts to my soul, maybe?
> 
> One is absolutely devoted to my husband and children. We have always lived on whatever he has made. I do what he wants done, for the most part, and feel guilty when I don't. I feel like I live to please him.
> 
> The other part of me says that is crazy! Why didn't I study harder in high school? Why didn't I try harder in math and science classes and do a STEM degree in college? Why didn't I then work full-time my whole life, with my own income, health insurance, and retirement? Why am I not an independent woman standing completely on my own? Why am I completely dependent on a man?
> 
> My daughter is a junior in chemical engineering, doing fabulously well. She told me she will always work full-time, will always be able to leave a man. She thinks that is critical for women.
> 
> I think this, too. And yet I folded like a house of cards when Dug told me he loved me and wanted me to be a SAHM.
> 
> So intellectually I totally agree with lifeistooshort, and admire her, and all other working moms, very much. And yet my own life is very different.
> 
> I feel simultaneously embarrassed and trapped and yet fairly comfortable and even happy with my life choices. If that makes any sense!


It is indeed a great dilemma. I do agree that women should have financial independence and I am very happy and proud that our daughter will have that independence. 

Yet I am also very proud of the choice we made. I am forever grateful for the risk you took. I have always known that I am very fortunate.

How could we raise 5 wonderful kids while maintaining your financial independence? 

I do not have an answer to this dilemma. I am simply sad that we are all in this dilemma because too many guys took advantage of women for way too long.


----------



## thefam

JLD, I think by financial independence you mean able to take care of yourself and kids without assistance from your husband, which requires a high paying job. If this is what you mean I know very few women who are able to do this even though they are working. The reasons vary but the most common is failure to sacrifice 7, save, and plan. 

Most of these women are however content in their marriages or at least financial independence is not a major concern. My opinion (and I recognize very few agree) is if you have a trustworthy spouse who earns enough to support the family and desires to have his wife stay home with the children, then this is the best for the family at least until the teen years. The support she can give to the family can alleviate a lot of stress and hassle IF both are on one according and if the husband genuinely respects her role and provides total access to all money. This probably works best when it's the husband's desire and the wife is willing rather than the other way around. 

I don't have a problem with our decision for me to not work outside the home again unless it becomes financially necessary. But I also recognize there are not many men like him and so will raise our daughter to he financially independent. I will also encourage her to find a mate who is willing to prepare for children by saving and planning for her to stay home with them for at least the first few years. I would support her if she does not want to follow that plan and go right back to work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pluto2

Couples all over the world have figured out how to raise wonderful children when both parents are employed and maintain their own financial independence.

I have always known I would provide for myself, and always have. I am raising my daughters to make the same assumptions in their lives.


----------



## Ms. GP

Thank you @jld for sharing. I admire your vulnerability there, so i will share some of my own. We have already agreed that whatever works for each individual family is great. No judgement here. I have had the opportunity to be a SAHM and a working mom. I enjoy both to be honest. When it comes to financial matters, I trust my husband implicitly. So it isn't a matter of financial independence from a man. It isn't about my husband at all, really. I've never felt mistreated an any way when I was a SAHM. I enjoyed it. I really did, but I will be honest the entire time there was a soft quiet voice in my head that kept saying, "Something's missing." I tried to ignore because I wasn't unhappy or mistreated in any way, but I felt at times I was losing my sense of self in my roles of wife and mother. They are the most important roles in my life, but I need a little autonomy in my life or I will go nuts. Not to brag, but I'm really good at my job. I get paid a lot of money and it is a source of self esteem for me. Let's face it. SAHM can be a thankless job. No one ever said to me, "Good job, here's some money."  

It was like I had a beautiful picture puzzle with one tiny piece missing.


----------



## richardsharpe

Good evening
I've always been happy with the idea the either my wife or I could leave any time we wanted. I like the idea that neither of us feels trapped - we are together because we want to be together.


----------



## Pluto2

@jld, let me ask something. I think somewhere on here you mentioned that you home-school your kids. What do you think you might want to do when they are all out of the house and on their own?


----------



## unbelievable

Pluto2 said:


> Couples all over the world have figured out how to raise wonderful children when both parents are employed and maintain their own financial independence.
> 
> I have always known I would provide for myself, and always have. I am raising my daughters to make the same assumptions in their lives.


It's closer to the truth to say that some kids have managed to grow up to be reasonably decent humans even without close parental supervision. Most of what is being raised aren't wonderful or even self sufficient.


----------



## Ms. GP

My mother went back to college when I did. We were in college at the same time. She maintained a 4.0 the entire time. I was really proud of her when she graduated. She showed me it's never too late to go after your dreams.


----------



## lucy999

I think it takes a special kind of person/family/parents to home school children. My hat's off to you, Dug, and your daughter. Incredible! I wouldn't have the intelligence or patience for that. The amount of time and planning and dedication that goes into it blows my mind.

Ever since I left my parents' house at age 18, I've been financially independent. Hell, even when I was living with them, I had a job. In fact, they co-signed for my very first credit card and they said it was a good move because my timely payments boosted their credit. LOL. I wasn't taught to be this way necessarily, my mother was a SAHM and she did a superlative job with Dad and three daughters. 

It may have been when my dad announced he was getting transferred yet again and I didn't want to leave my friends or my job. It just kind of blossomed from there. I only had myself to rely on.

In all of my live-in relationships (never been married), I made my own money and held my own job, and paid my own bills. Sure, we split bills 50/50, but my first two relationships ended up with me dealing with all of the bill paying, and essentially becoming a mother to my BFs and micromanaging their finances because they were horrible with money. I've had a belly full of that, and my current live-in BF takes care of his own stuff and we are 50/50 on bills. I was very strident with him on this issue from the very beginning. I will never change my tune on that one.

We live in a pretty nice apartment, one of the best in our city, and I'll admit, if we broke up, it'd be lean for awhile. But I could make it. I could easily get PT job proofreading/editing legal work and it'd be easier.


----------



## jld

Duguesclin said:


> It is indeed a great dilemma. I do agree that women should have financial independence and I am very happy and proud that our daughter will have that independence.
> 
> Yet I am also very proud of the choice we made. I am forever grateful for the risk you took. I have always known that I am very fortunate.
> 
> How could we raise 5 wonderful kids while maintaining your financial independence?
> 
> I do not have an answer to this dilemma. I am simply sad that we are all in this dilemma because too many guys took advantage of women for way too long.


Thank you, Dug. It was very kind of you to write this.


----------



## Ms. GP

I wonder @jld ,now that your kids are older, if you could get a part time job, take a course online, or mabye find a work from home position? Not trying to force anything down your throat, but it might be fun to branch out a little. Try something new if you want to.


----------



## jld

thefam said:


> JLD, I think by financial independence you mean able to take care of yourself and kids without assistance from your husband, which requires a high paying job. If this is what you mean I know very few women who are able to do this even though they are working. The reasons vary but the most common is failure to sacrifice 7, save, and plan.
> 
> Most of these women are however content in their marriages or at least financial independence is not a major concern. My opinion (and I recognize very few agree) is if you have a trustworthy spouse who earns enough to support the family and desires to have his wife stay home with the children, then this is the best for the family at least until the teen years. The support she can give to the family can alleviate a lot of stress and hassle IF both are on one according and if the husband genuinely respects her role and provides total access to all money. This probably works best when it's the husband's desire and the wife is willing rather than the other way around.
> 
> I don't have a problem with our decision for me to not work outside the home again unless it becomes financially necessary. But I also recognize there are not many men like him and so will raise our daughter to he financially independent. I will also encourage her to find a mate who is willing to prepare for children by saving and planning for her to stay home with them for at least the first few years. I would support her if she does not want to follow that plan and go right back to work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But you are also a real estate agent, right? And you made a lot of money fixing up houses and selling them?

That's capital you have to invest. And that is probably what I *should* be doing: learning how to invest.

But I have no interest in it, and terrible fear of not doing it well. Which I am sure is very lazy and cowardly of me.

Tfam, I really appreciate your responding. I know you and I think alike on many things. I almost feel like I cannot speak too deeply on this subject on the forum, because it is so deep in my heart. And that is of course the reason I live the lifestyle I do. Because it is deep within my heart.

And I obviously feel deeply conflicted about it.


----------



## jld

Ms. GP said:


> I wonder @jld ,now that your kids are older, if you could get a part time job, take a course online, or mabye find a work from home position? Not trying to force anything down your throat, but it might be fun to branch out a little. Try something new if you want to.


I really appreciate what you are saying. As a matter of fact, the little bit we have interacted, I have really appreciated. 

You have been through so much, Ms GP. And you are obviously a very strong person for your family. 

I hope we will be able to talk sometime. I respect the work you have done on yourself through the 12 step groups. The more honest we can be with ourselves, the more we can grow.

Sorry to get kind of off topic. The whole working/staying home question just brings me down to a deep values kind of place and it feels very vulnerable to talk about it, but could be helpful.


----------



## norajane

I've always been financially independent, ever since college. After working a couple of years, I went back for an MBA while still working part time. Some hard work, some risks/opportunities, some luck...and I have never relied on anyone else's money for anything. 

I don't love working, and am looking forward to retiring at 50 in the next couple of years. But my need for financial security is very strong and always has been, my OWN financial security, not a husband's. My parents are immigrants who worked in blue collar jobs all their lives and I saw firsthand what it meant to have to work hard jobs while still being at the mercy of factory layoffs and low salaries and financially planning for goals.

Not everyone has this kind of life path, though. People make choices best suited to themselves and what they want for their lives. If I had wanted 5 kids, no way would I be working outside the home. And it would make me feel very, very uncomfortable to have to rely on a husband's income. Even in the best of all worlds, a husband can get laid off or something, so I'd be all about wanting to make sure we had a very healthy emergency fund.

jld, if you want to do something else with yourself after the kids are mostly grown, you can. It's never too late.


----------



## kag123

Jld - what is it that you are really afraid of?

When I let myself go to the worst scenarios in my head, I often find that there really is very little to be truly terrified of. 

If either my H or I lost our jobs, we'd be in deep S. But even if we were homeless I know we would pull through it. Just like I know that if I were to divorce for any reason and couldn't support myself, I'd get through it somehow. Even if that meant going to a shelter or relying on welfare, I'd get through it. 

So what specifically worries you?

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Ms. GP

jld said:


> I really appreciate what you are saying. As a matter of fact, the little bit we have interacted, I have really appreciated.
> 
> You have been through so much, Ms GP. And you are obviously a very strong person for your family.
> 
> I hope we will be able to talk sometime. I respect the work you have done on yourself through the 12 step groups. The more honest we can be with ourselves, the more we can grow.
> 
> Sorry to get kind of off topic. The whole working/staying home question just brings me down to a deep values kind of place and it feels very vulnerable to talk about it, but could be helpful.


I would never ask you to go against your deep core values or talk about something your not ready to. I admire your ability to stick to your guns. I agree through honest self reflection we do grow as people. Like, I said no judgement.


----------



## jld

kag123 said:


> Jld - what is it that you are really afraid of?
> 
> When I let myself go to the worst scenarios in my head, I often find that there really is very little to be truly terrified of.
> 
> If either my H or I lost our jobs, we'd be in deep S. But even if we were homeless I know we would pull through it. Just like I know that if I were to divorce for any reason and couldn't support myself, I'd get through it somehow. Even if that meant going to a shelter or relying on welfare, I'd get through it.
> 
> So what specifically worries you?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


I'm terrified of being alone.

That was the first thought that came to mind, and it does not even have anything to do with this financial conversation. Or maybe it does.

That question actually made me start crying. I'm feeling very vulnerable right now.


----------



## jld

norajane said:


> I've always been financially independent, ever since college. After working a couple of years, I went back for an MBA while still working part time. Some hard work, some risks/opportunities, some luck...and I have never relied on anyone else's money for anything.
> 
> I don't love working, and am looking forward to retiring at 50 in the next couple of years. But my need for financial security is very strong and always has been, my OWN financial security, not a husband's. My parents are immigrants who worked in blue collar jobs all their lives and I saw firsthand what it meant to have to work hard jobs while still being at the mercy of factory layoffs and low salaries and financially planning for goals.
> 
> Not everyone has this kind of life path, though. People make choices best suited to themselves and what they want for their lives. If I had wanted 5 kids, no way would I be working outside the home. And it would make me feel very, very uncomfortable to have to rely on a husband's income. Even in the best of all worlds, a husband can get laid off or something, so I'd be all about wanting to make sure we had a very healthy emergency fund.
> 
> jld, if you want to do something else with yourself after the kids are mostly grown, you can. It's never too late.


You are so smart, norajane. And you know real life. You are nobody's fool.

I have a ton of respect for you, even when I feel about two inches tall after reading one of your posts.

You are kind of like the model for how we are all supposed to be, right? Completely independent, not only smart, but savvy, in control at all times?

But what if not all of us can be that way?


----------



## Blondilocks

Good grief, JLD. You have five (5) children. You will never be alone as one or the other will always need their Mom's advice. I bet you couldn't pay them to leave you alone.

Now, it seems that your children are getting up there in age. How about a part time job in an area that interests you? It doesn't have to pay much. It only needs to give you a little feeling of joy and security.

Frankly, I haven't noticed any kids that are doing better with stay at home moms versus both working parents. It's all up to the parents.


----------



## Ynot

I think that people, both men and women, should not focus so much on financial independence but more so on just plain independence. There is nothing more special that having two beings compliment and enhance each other, but some effort needs to be made on being able to survive as an independent, self sufficient, human being, rather than as the crippled needy surviving half of a couple.


----------



## norajane

jld said:


> You are so smart, norajane. And you know real life. You are nobody's fool.
> 
> I have a ton of respect for you, even when I feel about two inches tall after reading one of your posts.
> 
> You are kind of like the model for how we are all supposed to be, right? Completely independent, not only smart, but savvy, in control at all times?
> 
> But what if not all of us can be that way?


I am absolutely not a model for anyone! I made my choices based on my set of life circumstances at the time. I went to college because my parents always wanted that for me so I wouldn't have to work blue collar jobs. I worked because I had to - I knew from a young age where money came from and why you needed it, and I knew it wouldn't magically drop from trees if I didn't make a point of getting jobs that paid well. I manged my money so I wouldn't have debt because my parents were averse to debt and still have no credit card other than one I gave them for emergencies. I worked hard and took some risks because I wanted to get paid as much as I possibly could for the work I was putting in so I could have a secure future. Along the way I met my SO, and he is like-minded in terms of money and independence, so we mesh very well on our life's outlook and approach.

I am no smarter than anyone else, and definitely not in control at all times. I've just had 48 years to learn some life lessons and do with them what I can, and there's no joy in looking back and asking "what if I had done x or y instead?". 

In the end, all that really matters in life is the people we experience life with and the love that we fill our lives with. Financial security is a means to an end, not an end itself, and it doesn't mean the same thing to everybody. 

To me, it looks like you have filled your life with love and family. If you want to add something else to your life once your major family responsibilities are no longer on your plate, you can.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I really want to weigh in on this, having actually lived both sides of the dependent/independent equation, but it's a little hard type much on my phone, so I will write more when I get home. I should be working now anyway 

But for now I'm going to say that jld doesn't give herself enough credit and it makes me happy to know that Dug appreciates her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thefam

jld said:


> But you are also a real estate agent, right? And you made a lot of money fixing up houses and selling them?
> 
> That's capital you have to invest. And that is probably what I *should* be doing: learning how to invest.
> 
> But I have no interest in it, and terrible fear of not doing it well. Which I am sure is very lazy and cowardly of me.
> 
> Tfam, I really appreciate your responding. I know you and I think alike on many things. I almost feel like I cannot speak too deeply on this subject on the forum, because it is so deep in my heart. And that is of course the reason I live the lifestyle I do. Because it is deep within my heart.
> 
> And I obviously feel deeply conflicted about it.


I am a licensed realtor, yes but flipping houses is my passion and becoming an agent was a way for us to eliminate an overhead expense. As you know some clients fell in my lap in the process but that was enough to let me know that becoming a full time agent would require too much time away from my family. 

JLD have you ever thought about becoming a private tutor? That's a business you could run from your home and you already have the degree for it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> I really want to weigh in on this, having actually lived both sides of the dependent/independent equation, but it's a little hard type much on my phone, so I will write more when I get home. I should be working now anyway
> 
> But for now I'm going to say that jld doesn't give herself enough credit and it makes me happy to know that Dug appreciates her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Life, you always believe in me, even when I don't believe in myself. You are a true friend.


----------



## jld

thefam said:


> I am a licensed realtor, yes but flipping houses is my passion and becoming an agent was a way for us to eliminate an overhead expense. As you know some clients fell in my lap in the process but that was enough to let me know that becoming a full time agent would require too much time away from my family.
> 
> JLD have you ever thought about becoming a private tutor? That's a business you could run from your home and you already have the degree for it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have had people suggest that. I used to teach at Dug's workplace, too, 15 years ago, just two hours a week.

It's not like I am really trying to come up with a way to earn money. It is more like feeling like I failed somehow by not having a moneymaking career. I wimped out.

Dug does not see it that way at all. To him, I am exactly what he wanted in a wife and mother of his children. 

I really admire women who have their own careers, because they are truly independent. They have their own standing. They have their own true freedom. They paid their own way. No wonder they aren't scared. They earned their fearlessness!

Tfam, you are not a frightened person, either. And you are resourceful. You are confident and grounded. You might share strength with your husband, but it does not come from him. You can manage without him.

And what is amazing is that you are so young and can do this!


----------



## naiveonedave

@jld don't sell yourself short. Your life experiences do give you ways to earn a living. You just need to figure out how. Now that we have teenagers only, my W is pursuing higher value employment than her past part time jobs. In little time with a lot of effort, she has found a good niche job.

Your kids are better off than most, due to you being a SAHM. But that doesn't mean those years were wasted in 'being out of the workforce'.


----------



## ocotillo

jld said:


> I feel simultaneously embarrassed and trapped and yet fairly comfortable and even happy with my life choices. If that makes any sense!


--A lot of what you often say about trust, respect, strength of character, etc. suddenly makes a whole lot more sense. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Zanne

.


----------



## anonmd

What is this financial independence of which you speak?

I've been working for around 40 years, nearly 30 in 2 career type jobs. 6 figure income, roughly 2/3 of the household income at all times since marriage. With roughly 15 years left till retirement I'm hoping to achieve this independence at some point in the next decade but that ain't guaranteed either .

My point, with kids involved in a family there is a 20+ year stretch there where financial independence is not really possible for either of you. Does not really matter whether it is one income or two...


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> What is this financial independence of which you speak?
> 
> I've been working for around 40 years, nearly 30 in 2 career type jobs. 6 figure income, roughly 2/3 of the household income at all times since marriage. With roughly 15 years left till retirement I'm hoping to achieve this independence at some point in the next decade but that ain't guaranteed either .
> 
> My point, with kids involved in a family there is a 20+ year stretch there where financial independence is not really possible for either of you. Does not really matter whether it is one income or two...


Are you saying that what I am thinking of and feeling guilty about not having pursued might be an illusion?


----------



## Ynot

anonmd said:


> What is this financial independence of which you speak?
> 
> I've been working for around 40 years, nearly 30 in 2 career type jobs. 6 figure income, roughly 2/3 of the household income at all times since marriage. With roughly 15 years left till retirement I'm hoping to achieve this independence at some point in the next decade but that ain't guaranteed either .
> 
> My point, with kids involved in a family there is a 20+ year stretch there where financial independence is not really possible for either of you. Does not really matter whether it is one income or two...


Financial independence is possible any time one chooses to make it happen. What you are talking about is maintaining some level of a life style you have become accustomed to, which is very different than being financially independent of some one else.


----------



## anonmd

jld said:


> Are you saying that what I am thinking of and feeling guilty about not having pursued might be an illusion?


I am, it is mostly an illusion. 

Now, if hubby decides to pack it at 10 or 15 years in and abandon the family dodging child support etc. That is a separate case, ignore that one for now. 

Let's say you pursued a career, had a decent job with an average salary. Put whatever number you think would be appropriate on that. 

What difference would that have made along the way? You'd still have kids, ever price out daycare? You can't just add your income as a marginal change and say oh, another 50k or whatever, we'd be much better off. You'd pay for daycare, you'd pay to commute, there would be different educational expenses. Don't forget the government, with all that extra income you are now really 'rich' and the tax rate goes up, the per child tax credit starts going away. etc. etc.


----------



## lifeistooshort

anonmd said:


> I am, it is mostly an illusion.
> 
> Now, if hubby decides to pack it at 10 or 15 years in and abandon the family dodging child support etc. That is a separate case, ignore that one for now.
> 
> Let's say you pursued a career, had a decent job with an average salary. Put whatever number you think would be appropriate on that.
> 
> What difference would that have made along the way? You'd still have kids, ever price out daycare? You can't just add your income as a marginal change and say oh, another 50k or whatever, we'd be much better off. You'd pay for daycare, you'd pay to commute, there would be different educational expenses. Don't forget the government, with all that extra income you are now really 'rich' and the tax rate goes up, the per child tax credit starts going away. etc. etc.


In my view this is very shortsighted. It is true that you pay for daycare/commuting/etc but daycare is temporary, while working is an investment in your future earning power. It's very difficult to go back to work after many years at home, and that assumes you have any marketable skills.

There are certainly reasons to have a sahp, though I would argue that plenty of kids who go to daycare turn out just fine, but the financial argument is a very shortsighted one.


----------



## FeministInPink

anonmd said:


> I am, it is mostly an illusion.
> 
> Now, if hubby decides to pack it at 10 or 15 years in and abandon the family dodging child support etc. That is a separate case, ignore that one for now.
> 
> Let's say you pursued a career, had a decent job with an average salary. Put whatever number you think would be appropriate on that.
> 
> What difference would that have made along the way? You'd still have kids, ever price out daycare? You can't just add your income as a marginal change and say oh, another 50k or whatever, we'd be much better off. You'd pay for daycare, you'd pay to commute, there would be different educational expenses. Don't forget the government, with all that extra income you are now really 'rich' and the tax rate goes up, the per child tax credit starts going away. etc. etc.


Not to mention the STRESS that comes with being a career woman AND a mom! I don't have kids, but I see the strain it puts on my little sis. She has two under five, and a bun in the oven, and even though my BIL works, my sis is definitely the breadwinner in the family. (Right now they're talking about him quitting work, so he can take care of the kids and go back to school, to get a more useful degree in engineering. (His undergrad degree is in ceramics... making pottery.)) It puts a lot of strain on her. She would LOVE it if BIL made enough money so that she could quit and be a SAHM, or at least scale back to part-time, or be a teacher's aid or something like that.
@jld--There are a LOT of "financially independent" women who don't want to be. They work because they have to work. They would give their right arm to do what you do. I agree with @anonmd, I think it's an illusion.


----------



## lifeistooshort

So I've been in both positions; I was a sahm for about 5 years when my kids were younger and quite frankly I hated most of it. Don't get me wrong, I did love spending time with my boys, but I really did feel like life was passing me by. And I felt very isolated.....I'm kind of introverted and don't make friends well so I need the socialization that comes with work. Now combine that with a hb who was an arse about everything and thought I had to answer to him. He would come home and inspect the house and b!tch at me over the things he thought I didn't do properly, and when I finally told him I was done with him he cleaned out the checking account so I'd "have to talk to him".

I will never be in a position where someone can use money to control me again. But beyond the a$$hole hb I'm the type that really wanted a career; I can see how guys who don't really enjoy their job but rather do it to pay bills wouldn't see things like that. My ex used to tell me that he would LOVE to have my life, except that my life made me miserable. I was not a stay at home type, cleaned the house ok but not up to his mommy's standards, and cooked ok. Though he didn't know that because he was a pr!ck to I didn't cook much for him.....and he would openly ridicule me to his friends and our neighbors. But my ex was basically lazy by nature and he resented that he had to work; he resented the demands a wife and kids put on him, and since he thought I did nothing all day he was jealous of that. If he'd been a sahd he would've done NOTHING with them. He once told me that he didn't even like spending time with them unless one of his friends was around.

A lot of guys mistakenly assume that women want to stay home and they're doing us a favor to allow that; some women do, but many really don't and feel pressured into it. And how often on TAM do we see a husband of a wife who's not "behaving like a proper wife" told to "cut off her money"? Yeah, fvck that. Nobody's going to leverage money to get me to "behave". The stay at home spouse is never told to "cut off the money" of the working spouse.

In addition, there are so many things in life that can go wrong; the breadwinner can lose their job, someone's health can go south, divorces happen....and some people really like working. 

My hb lost his job last year and was out of work for 9 months, and one of the things that helped him mentally was my salary.

Jld is lucky in the sense that she has a husband who really appreciates her and supports what she does and yet part of her still feels like she's missing out. Imagine how she'd be doing if her hb was a jerk or was cheating on her or who just wanted to trade her in for a younger model.

I can understand the argument that young kids need a parent at home and I certainly have no issue with a couple who wants to do this, though I do it's important to have the buy in of both spouses. But personally I think it's too big of a risk to take in this day and age.

And anyone who doubts the risk should take a look at this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/01/fashion/sundaystyles/01LOVE.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

I doubt she thought it would happen to her either but it did.


----------



## lifeistooshort

FeministInPink said:


> Not to mention the STRESS that comes with being a career woman AND a mom! I don't have kids, but I see the strain it puts on my little sis. She has two under five, and a bun in the oven, and even though my BIL works, my sis is definitely the breadwinner in the family. (Right now they're talking about him quitting work, so he can take care of the kids and go back to school, to get a more useful degree in engineering. (His undergrad degree is in ceramics... making pottery.)) It puts a lot of strain on her. She would LOVE it if BIL made enough money so that she could quit and be a SAHM, or at least scale back to part-time, or be a teacher's aid or something like that.
> 
> @jld--T*here are a LOT of "financially independent" women who don't want to be. They work because they have to work.* They would give their right arm to do what you do. I agree with @anonmd, I think it's an illusion.


There are a lot of people like this.....plenty of men who don't want to work but have to. Not unique to women.....it's a human thing.

And said women think that until they find themselves in a position where they can't manage.


----------



## JohnA

JLD, 

Who keeps the family check book, keeps track of financial investments, and tax records in your marriage? Honestly if my dad wrote a dozen checks in 50 years of marriage thats a lot. My parents discussed and decided all important financial decisions, but guess who made it happen? Oh, dad had a BA in accounting.

One brother's wife is a stay at home mom. Guess who keeps the check book and follows though on all joint financial decisions? Oh my brother has an MBA in finance. 

One brother is married to a CPA. Er actually she does. 

All three of these marriages were/are based on absolute equality of the marriage partners. 

We seem to dancing around two subjects. Do you feel you are not financial competent or are you re-evaluating your life choices?


----------



## jld

Life, that NYT article is very powerful. Thank you for linking it.


----------



## anonmd

I'm not particularly arguing one way or the other, just that there isn't that much difference. At least if you stay together. If you don't and it was 10 years plus the courts are going to attend to that. When a family is involved it takes a team these days.


----------



## Duguesclin

lifeistooshort said:


> And anyone who doubts the risk should take a look at this:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/01/fashion/sundaystyles/01LOVE.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
> 
> I doubt she thought it would happen to her either but it did.


Wow, 40 years of marriage and she gets 4 years of alimony. Sad. 

Then you have the guys who cry because they believe the court is stacked against men. Pathetic.


----------



## kag123

I guess I think that there must be some deeper reason for your reckoning on this now. Is there? From what I've read of your posts it seems like you have a very good life laid out with both you and your husband having well defined roles and meeting each other's mutual expectations in those roles. To me, that is something to be thankful for!

I think this could be a "grass is always greener" type of thing. 

I'm the breadwinner at this moment but my H has a solid career too. I've never known any different and to be honest, never gave it a second thought because we didn't have a choice. We met fresh out of college and needed two incomes to make ends meet and as time passes, we have progressed in those careers and just keep on keepin on. 

Meanwhile instead of focusing on what could have been, I try to focus on what IS and what I am thankful for. I realize that sounds trite and I don't mean it to be that way. While I've even posted on this forum about how much I hate my current job, I am thankful for the fact that the job means we can afford our home and to feed our family and provide stability to our kids. I am thankful that my kids are happy and that even though I didn't get to be the primary caregiver to them when I am working, I was able to trust the person who did fill that role for me. I am thankful for a lot of things. Sure they could have been different...but different isn't always good. 

Besides, don't underestimate your ability to change things in the future should you want or need to. If you ever desire to start working, there isn't anything stopping you from reaching that goal at some point. 


Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


----------



## Duguesclin

In terms of a woman financial independence for a 60 year old woman (NYT article), what is better:
1. Both husband and wife working with no debt
2. Husband working wife stays at home with no debt
3. Both husband and wife working with a house mortgage and car loans
4. Husband working wife stays at home with a house mortgage and car loans

I think it is in this order

If the family lifestyle is above the income of the family, whether the woman work or not does not fare well for her (or him) if the couple divorces.

In our case, we never had a car loan and were debt free 5 years after we bought our house. Granted we do not have an expensive house and certainly could afford a much bigger one. 

It was very important to me that my wife stayed home. So I made sure she was as comfortable as possible with the setup. This is what it took in terms of debt exposure to keep her home.

Now, some would argue that it does not make a difference whether or not a woman stays home with the kids. I respectfully disagree. I am not saying that our children would be delinquents because she would have worked. But the fact they are so poised and secure has a lot to do with not being rushed when they were little. 

Our kids are better off today because they had a smart mother at home. I am concerned that men have not grown to value this. Our fathers did not have to worry about it because it was a given that women would stay home.


----------



## Ms. GP

I think happy parents make happy kids. If both parents are on board with the SAHM situation, and their finances allow it, then by all means do it. But not all women or men, myself included, are cut out for it. Not all women want to do that and it has nothing to do with their marriages. Women may start out loving it, but they have the right to change their minds. Things change. People change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ms. GP

Their husbands should be strong and secure enough to support them. Whatever they decide.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

kag123 said:


> I guess I think that there must be some deeper reason for your reckoning on this now. Is there? From what I've read of your posts it seems like you have a very good life laid out with both you and your husband having well defined roles and meeting each other's mutual expectations in those roles. To me, that is something to be thankful for!
> 
> I think this could be a "grass is always greener" type of thing.
> 
> I'm the breadwinner at this moment but my H has a solid career too. I've never known any different and to be honest, never gave it a second thought because we didn't have a choice. We met fresh out of college and needed two incomes to make ends meet and as time passes, we have progressed in those careers and just keep on keepin on.
> 
> Meanwhile instead of focusing on what could have been, I try to focus on what IS and what I am thankful for. I realize that sounds trite and I don't mean it to be that way. While I've even posted on this forum about how much I hate my current job, I am thankful for the fact that the job means we can afford our home and to feed our family and provide stability to our kids. I am thankful that my kids are happy and that even though I didn't get to be the primary caregiver to them when I am working, I was able to trust the person who did fill that role for me. I am thankful for a lot of things. Sure they could have been different...but different isn't always good.
> 
> Besides, don't underestimate your ability to change things in the future should you want or need to. If you ever desire to start working, there isn't anything stopping you from reaching that goal at some point.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


You're right, kag. There is a reason this question has come up again, as it does every so often.

Our daughter is studying in Switzerland this year, junior year abroad. She was planning to go to her grandparents' little farm in France over the holidays, so we decided to send her two youngest brothers to see her. They have really missed her, as she left the beginning of Sept. and will not be back until August.

So they have been away the last month and will be back in a few weeks. They are soaking up French and enjoying the farm, as well as playing with their cousins. 

Meanwhile I am here with my big boys, ds16 and ds13. So easy. They manage all their own schoolwork and do their cycling/gaming in the evenings. Dug is away at work and I am really free to do as I please.

Well, this is temporary, as ds10 and ds7 will be back soon. But it gives me a taste of what life would be like if we had stopped at 3, and ds13 were my youngest. I would totally be ready to take a job again. Part-time, for sure, but something to get out and talk to people and get some stimulation.

The other thing is that I am reflecting on what a bright future our daughter has, and, I'll admit, wondering how my life would have been if I had done the same. 

But I do not have her talents. She is very good at math and science and has a super work ethic. She loves physical activity, music, art. Like Dug, she is calm and confident. Just a very different person than I am.

Like you said, I think I have to let go of what wasn't, and embrace what was, and is. Dug is a good man and is not going to leave me in 20 years like the unfortunate woman in that NYT article. He would never do that to the kids and me. 

And there have been benefits from my staying at home. We could not have done the moves to France and India if I had been working, nor have had so many children. And the kids really are a joy, and an investment for the future.


----------



## tech-novelist

Duguesclin said:


> Wow, 40 years of marriage and she gets 4 years of alimony. Sad.
> 
> Then you have the guys who cry because they believe the court is stacked against men. Pathetic.


Read the book at realworlddivorce.com and get back to us on how men are imagining that the courts are stacked against them.


----------



## jld

Duguesclin said:


> It was very important to me that my wife stayed home. *So I made sure she was as comfortable as possible with the setup. *This is what it took in terms of debt exposure to keep her home.


I did not know this is how you saw it. 

It is true that I would not have gotten pregnant if we could not have afforded it. Financial safety has always been extremely important to me. In short, I hate (fear) debt.

And when you said yesterday that "we" made the choice to have a SAHM, that was surprising to read, too. *You* were the one who presented it right away in the relationship, saying you wanted the kids breastfed and homeschooled. *I* thought it was a requirement of the continuation of the relationship.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I appreciate this thread..mostly because you started it Jld.. 

It's a little bit of a dilemma for me also... but I've identified it more so due to the pressures of modern society, and the judgments that have sprung from it.. as now "stay at homes" are the minority. 

A woman who does it ALL and does it WELL .... She is worth rubies.. no diamonds , it IS [email protected]#.. but here is my question to you... would you want to slip into her shoes.. on a day to day basis....do you find you envy these women you admire ??.. ..even with the higher demands on your time, juggling more..... 

Is it about:

*1)* *the money* (More traveling, newer cars, maybe want to buy a vacation home... etc)... 



*2)* about *the admiration* ...as you admire this so highly in other women - you feel it would boost your confidence.. more productivity...even worthiness.. You know what I mean.. I've felt the sting of feeling "Lessor".. like I wasted my potential.. 

*3)* about *the FREEDOM* ....this isn't going to happen.. but lets say...if things went sour. you could flip the bird to DUG.. and walk out knowing you'll be fine.. you have your own paycheck...and a good lifestyle awaits.. even if it's alone...

*4)* or it is more *a drive to fulfill a dream*.. a gift you were born with.. that hasn't been given wings yet... your destiny is calling.. . some people are drawn to make music.. teach... research.. and their passion makes a difference in our world.. we should never ignore these things... it's like burying our talents in the sand .. (probably heard that parable)...whether you'd enjoy being a tutor... (you know you could -easily!)... or go back to teaching full time...

If #4....you NEED to pursue that inner drive ....it will bring you great satisfaction.. and you will bless others.. like this saying..



I think, seeing your daughter soar so high, her intelligence & grace in a field so dominated by men..all she has earned on her own.. maybe you look at her & think - "I could have done that!... like "missed opportunities" perhaps...(It is MID LIFE after all !)..... but chances are.. you wouldn't have 5 lovely children 'round about you today...what we'd give for our children... is this where your heart is 1st & foremost ? ... if so...rest in it. you've done well... your husband is pleased.. thankful.. and for what you've brought to all their lives... 

as @norajane said "If I had wanted 5 kids, no way would I be working outside the home." "

I know for me.. I've never envied the career woman.. I have , however envied LIKE a fire.. the mother with children - when I couldn't conceive. I KNOW this is where my heart has always been...

I was always more of a "Simple" lifestyle type... all for working hard.. but also laying back.. enjoying a lot of time together... nothing thrills me more than family vacations.. day trips.. all 8 of us or 9 ...maybe 10 stuffed into our suburban.... I get such a high off of those things, seeing them HAPPY.. enjoying life....if you got friends/ family.... a place a call home.. breathe some country air.. and children to liven it all up....this was my dream...my heaven on earth... 

I can understand the social interaction thing people crave.... to feel involved *in something*.... to feel a part of community... this gives us a sense of purpose.... but money wise.. if a family is making it good financially..... if a couple is happy with their dynamic... it's time to sort out if it's more pressures of society ...or something else ? 

The most financially independent I was - was living in a camper in another's back yard.. had my own wheels & a Steady job.. I was 18...I remember feeling free...he was by my side then too...then his dad said "She's moving in with us"... I paid my own way there... then a few yrs later.. we married.. I did make more than him when we walked down the aisle.. no one can say I married for $$ anyway.


----------



## Tippy

Now in hindsight, regrettably I have never been financially independent. I went from working various part time jobs while living with my parents to marrying the father of my child and stopping working. After 15 years of marriage and not working the whole time I am now getting divorced. I am in my early 40's and I don't know what to do.


----------



## EleGirl

jld said:


> You're right, kag. There is a reason this question has come up again, as it does every so often.
> 
> Our daughter is studying in Switzerland this year, junior year abroad. She was planning to go to her grandparents' little farm in France over the holidays, so we decided to send her two youngest brothers to see her. They have really missed her, as she left the beginning of Sept. and will not be back until August.
> 
> So they have been away the last month and will be back in a few weeks. They are soaking up French and enjoying the farm, as well as playing with their cousins.
> 
> Meanwhile I am here with my big boys, ds16 and ds13. So easy. They manage all their own schoolwork and do their cycling/gaming in the evenings. Dug is away at work and I am really free to do as I please.
> 
> Well, this is temporary, as ds10 and ds7 will be back soon. But it gives me a taste of what life would be like if we had stopped at 3, and ds13 were my youngest. I would totally be ready to take a job again. Part-time, for sure, but something to get out and talk to people and get some stimulation.
> 
> The other thing is that I am reflecting on what a bright future our daughter has, and, I'll admit, wondering how my life would have been if I had done the same.
> 
> But I do not have her talents. She is very good at math and science and has a super work ethic. She loves physical activity, music, art. Like Dug, she is calm and confident. Just a very different person than I am.
> 
> Like you said, I think I have to let go of what wasn't, and embrace what was, and is. Dug is a good man and is not going to leave me in 20 years like the unfortunate woman in that NYT article. He would never do that to the kids and me.
> 
> And there have been benefits from my staying at home. We could not have done the moves to France and India if I had been working, nor have had so many children. And the kids really are a joy, and an investment for the future.


You and Dug have done so well in your marriage and in raising your children. It's hard to think that you have anything to regret. Perhaps, like you say here, it's the future that is getting you to think about all this. It might be a good time for you to start looking at what you would like to do in the next phase of your life. You could even start to take a class or two to work towards a job/career that you would enjoy.

What do you think you would be interested in doing?


----------



## OpenWindows

There was a time when financial security was part of the reason I was staying in an unhappy marriage. We each made about half of the household income, and I was afraid to try to make it with my kids and only half of the income.

Over time, my unhappiness overcame my fear, I figured out how to get by on just my income, and I left. Once I wanted it bad enough, it turned out I was more financially independent than I thought. 

A smaller house and less luxury spending was a pretty good trade for peace of mind. And it was kind of freeing to get rid of so much stuff! Sometimes you're less financially dependent than you think, if you're willing to let go of a few things.


----------



## EleGirl

Tippy said:


> Now in hindsight, regrettably I have never been financially independent. I went from working various part time jobs while living with my parents to marrying the father of my child and stopping working. After 15 years of marriage and not working the whole time I am now getting divorced. I am in my early 40's and I don't know what to do.


Have you considered going back to school?

What are you interested in doing?


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> I appreciate this thread..mostly because you started it Jld..
> 
> It's a little bit of a dilemma for me also... but I've identified it more so due to the pressures of modern society, and the judgments that have sprung from it.. as now "stay at homes" are the minority.
> 
> A woman who does it ALL and does it WELL .... She is worth rubies.. no diamonds , it IS [email protected]#.. but here is my question to you... would you want to slip into her shoes.. on a day to day basis....do you find you envy these women you admire ??.. ..even with the higher demands on your time, juggling more.....
> 
> It is about:
> 
> *1)* the money (More traveling, newer cars, maybe want to buy a vacation home... etc)...
> 
> 
> 
> *2)* about *the admiration* ...as you admire this so highly in other women - you feel it would boost your confidence.. more productivity...even worthiness.. You know what I mean.. I've felt the sting of feeling "Lessor".. like I wasted my potential..
> 
> *3)* about the FREEDOM ....this isn't going to happen.. but lets say...if things went sour. you could flip the bird to DUG.. and walk out knowing you'll be fine.. you have your own paycheck...and a good lifestyle awaits.. even if it's alone...
> 
> *4)* or it is more a drive to fulfill a dream.. a gift you were born with.. that hasn't been given wings yet... your destiny is calling.. . some people are drawn to make music.. teach... research.. and their passion makes a difference in our world.. we should never ignore these things... it's like burying our talents in the sand .. (probably heard that parable)...whether you'd enjoy being a tutor... (you know you could -easily!)... or go back to teaching full time...
> 
> If #4....you NEED to pursue that inner drive ....it will bring you great satisfaction.. and you will bless others.. like a calling.. ya know.. this saying..
> 
> 
> 
> I think, seeing your daughter soar so high, her intelligence & grace in a field so dominated by men..all she has earned on her own.. maybe you look at her & think - "I could have done that!... like "missed opportunities" perhaps...(It is MID LIFE after all !)....."did I miss my calling, MY opportunity" ..... but chances are.. you wouldn't have 5 lovely children 'round about you today...what we'd give without our children... is this where your heart is 1st & foremost.. if so...rest in it. you've done well... your husband is pleased.. thankful.. and for what you've brought to all their lives...
> 
> as @norajane said "If I had wanted 5 kids, no way would I be working outside the home." "
> 
> I know for me.. I've never envied the career woman.. I have , however envied LIKE a fire.. the mother with children. when I couldn't conceive. I KNOW this is where my heart has always been...
> 
> I was always more of a "Simple" lifestyle type... all for working hard.. but also laying back.. enjoying a lot of time together... nothing thrills me more than family vacations.. day trips.. all 8 of us or 9 ...maybe 10 stuffed into our suburban.... I get such a high off of those things, seeing them HAPPY.. enjoying life....if you got friends/ family.... a place a call home.. breathe some country air.. and children to liven it all up....this was my dream...my heaven on earth...
> 
> I can understand the social interaction thing people crave.... to feel involved *in something*.... to feel a part of community... this gives us a sense of purpose.... but money wise.. if a family is making it good financially..... if a couple is happy with their dynamic... it's time to sort out if it's more pressures of society ...or something else ?
> 
> The most financially independent I was - was living in a camper in another's back yard.. had my own wheels & a Steady job.. I was 18...I remember feeling free...he was by my side then too...then his dad said "She's moving in with us"... I paid my own way there... then a few yrs later.. we married.. I did make more than him when we walked down the aisle.. no one can say I married for $$ anyway.


((((SA)))) You are such a sweetheart! 

My heart is clearly at home, with my family. My life choices show that.

But it is a financial risk. All our eggs are in one basket.

And I was a serious student. I see that in my daughter. And I guess I do feel a little left behind, a little irrelevant. I did the best I could, but she is just much smarter, and in the right areas. She will always be in charge of her life, completely.

And I admire my daughter. I admire everyone who does a STEM degree. Those are really hard! 

You should see the pages and pages of calculations my daughter does. She has often spent most of a weekend studying calculus or physics or some really hard sounding engineering course. 

I really admire that. I really admire people who study hard subjects, who devote themselves to mastering difficult material. I respect that kind of study ethic so much. 

We saw my sister-in-law's family over Christmas. Her sister's husband has a degree in physics, and a master's in computer science. He is in charge of the IT dept. at a university. I bet his mother was so proud of him. 

My daughter was just talking to me the other day about how happy she was that she was homeschooled. But she plans to send her own children to school. She wants to be free to work full-time, as she loves her field. 

She said once that she already feels a little guilty about that, not wanting to do for her kids what was done for her.

We saw my best friend from high school over the holidays. We were talking about how well our daughter was doing. She turned to Dug and said, "Your daughter is how J would have been if she had ever had any confidence!" 

SA, you know who you are. You knew what you wanted. And you know the pain of not getting it right away. Your children are even more precious to you because you did not get them effortlessly. 

I feel a little bit guilty now for taking mine for granted, for thinking my life should have gone a more intellectually stimulating way. I am really lucky to have had the chance to have a family. 

Dug told me the other day that when we met, I was lost. He said I could not think about the future because I was just trying to survive in the present. He said without him I would have worked full time, maybe had one kid later in life.

He was so stable, so steady. He did not care if my past was not as clean as his. He just loved me and wanted to take care of me. He wanted a family with me. He had a vision.

And I had no vision other than survival. So I was totally happy to fit into his. Sounded much better than anything I had come up with.


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> You and Dug have done so well in your marriage and in raising your children. It's hard to think that you have anything to regret. Perhaps, like you say here, it's the future that is getting you to think about all this. It might be a good time for you to start looking at what you would like to do in the next phase of your life. You could even start to take a class or two to work towards a job/career that you would enjoy.
> 
> What do you think you would be interested in doing?


Thank you, Ele. 

I'm not sure. I'm a little bit scared as I have not worked or studied in so long. Dug is supportive of anything I want to do, so that is very nice. 

Tbh, I really like my life just the way I live it now. I just don't feel as productive as some of the folks I read about here, or know in real life. 

Again, I feel kind of embarrassed to have brought this up. I hope the discussion is useful to others somehow, too.

Actually, Ele, could I ask you a question? Do you think it's enough to have a family? 

You know I respect you. You have gone both the SAHM and working mom route. How much is enough for a woman to do, to feel like she has done enough?


----------



## EleGirl

jld said:


> Thank you, Ele.
> 
> I'm not sure. I'm a little bit scared as I have not worked or studied in so long. Dug is supportive of anything I want to do, so that is very nice.
> 
> Tbh, I really like my life just the way I live it now. I just don't feel as productive as some of the folks I read about here, or know in real life.
> 
> Again, I feel kind of embarrassed to have brought this up. I hope the discussion is useful to others somehow, too.
> 
> Actually, Ele, could I ask you a question? Do you think it's enough to have a family?
> 
> You know I respect you. You have gone both the SAHM and working mom route. How much is enough for a woman to do, to feel like she has done enough?


I think that having is a family, raising and homeschooling so many children is definitely "enough" for a woman in her life time. 

I doubt that anyone says on their death bed that they wish they had worked more at their job. But most people do wish that they has spent more time on the most important things in life... their family.

You are lucky to have a husband who gave you the opportunity to concentrate on your children and family. Don't ever regret taking advantage of it and doing a great job of it.

The only reason I asked the question is that you seem to be looking beyond being a SAHM and wondering what's out there and questioning your life. Don't let that diminish what you have done and what you have.


----------



## jld

EleGirl said:


> I think that having is a family, raising and homeschooling so many children is definitely "enough" for a woman in her life time.
> 
> I doubt that anyone says on their death bed that they wish they had worked more at their job. But most people do wish that they has spent more time on the most important things in life... their family.
> 
> You are lucky to have a husband who gave you the opportunity to concentrate on your children and family. Don't ever regret taking advantage of it and doing a great job of it.
> 
> The only reason I asked the question is that you seem to be looking beyond being a SAHM and wondering what's out there and questioning your life. Don't let that diminish what you have done and what you have.


Thank you, Ele. I appreciate your words of wisdom.


----------



## jld

intheory said:


> I completely admire and respect, even envy women like jld and SimplyAmorous. I think what they do is fantastic. It's too bad there can't be more women who can do this; because they are scared to trust their husbands.
> 
> If women want to be financially independent and have a great career; that's great too. And many people, men and women, don't have "great careers", they have jobs. IOW, staying at home and raising kids can be far more interesting than a lot of jobs that people do just to get a paycheck.
> 
> I think jld and SimplyAmorous are the last of a dying breed. I doubt few women in the future will be willing to risk doing this.
> 
> Part of the reason I never had kids is that there is no way I could ever trust anyone on this earth enough to take that kind of risk. The financial risks, the potential damage to my body, possibly having to be a single mother. My mother hated being a mother; and let me know fairly regularly how much she felt she missed out on by having to have me.
> 
> I get to stay home now (not permanently). H has stayed home in the past.
> 
> I know he would love to stay home if he could.
> 
> If I could support him; I would. And, like I said, I did briefly.
> 
> =============================
> 
> jld - it's honest to be conflicted. Most people are patchwork quilts. From what you've shared of yourself here, you've done a great job with your life.
> 
> It's natural to have these sorts of feelings in middle age. Most people are going to feel that they missed something. It's pretty much inevitable.


More words of wisdom. Thank you so much, intheory. 

What a beautiful, supportive thread this is. 

Intheory, I am so sorry that you felt you could not risk having children. Dug is in bed right now, but I know he will feel bad for you when he reads this. He is very disappointed when men will not commit to taking care of women. Women cannot force themselves to trust men; it's not safe. Men have to earn that trust. 

You are a wonderful, loving woman. Your posts on TAM are always so kind and nurturing. That is very motherly.


----------



## arbitrator

Duguesclin said:


> It is indeed a great dilemma. I do agree that women should have financial independence and I am very happy and proud that our daughter will have that independence.
> 
> Yet I am also very proud of the choice we made. I am forever grateful for the risk you took. I have always known that I am very fortunate.
> 
> How could we raise 5 wonderful kids while maintaining your financial independence?
> 
> *I do not have an answer to this dilemma. I am simply sad that we are all in this dilemma because too many guys took advantage of women for way too long.*


*But what about the number of women, some of whom hoard their own legitimate wealth, living off of the poorer guy whom they've married, and who do the exact same thing to their men ~ hastily go through their man's lesser monetary accumulation, all while hoarding their very own; and then who surreptitiously betray their vows? Do those women get "a walk," while all of these men are just summarily being characteristically labeled as little more than "moochers?"

I really think that this should be strictly evaluated on a "case by case" basis much rather than by an attempt at some societally-perceived but faulty, stereotypical generalizations?  Ces pas?*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## heartsbeating

jld said:


> I have had people suggest that. I used to teach at Dug's workplace, too, 15 years ago, just two hours a week.
> 
> It's not like I am really trying to come up with a way to earn money. It is more like feeling like I failed somehow by not having a moneymaking career. I wimped out.
> 
> Dug does not see it that way at all. To him, I am exactly what he wanted in a wife and mother of his children.
> 
> I really admire women who have their own careers, because they are truly independent. They have their own standing. They have their own true freedom. They paid their own way. No wonder they aren't scared. They earned their fearlessness!


Holy mackeral, Batgirl... you have thrown me for a loop!

Of course you are entitled to view things this way; I personally do not. I think fearlessness can be developed in a number of ways. I'd imagine homeschooling and raising a few children could most certainly contribute to becoming fearless!

You are doing that. You did it. You nailed it. 

What's next for you? It may not be about earning an income. We all need to feel connected and that we are contributing... that is what builds a sense of self, in my opinion.


----------



## EllisRedding

Well, I do think you can open this up to men now as well. I know still not as common, but i do know several guys who are SAHDs, so financial independence would be an issue for them.

Do I think financial independence is necessary for both people in a marriage, honestly, no. For example, in my situation, when my wife and I got married we were both working. She did very well with work (even though she hates it lol). After our first kid she kept working. After our second kid she decided to go part time. A big part of this, my career had continued to take off so financially we didn't need her income. Plus, when you start to do the math, the cost of sending 2 kids to day care on top of having strangers raise your kids, it just didn't make sense. A few years later add in child #3, and now my wife is a SAHM. Now I understand we are fortunate that we don't need her income, but even so if you sit down and run the numbers, even if she was still working in reality she would come home with very little when you factor in the costs of fulltime daycare for our daughter (plus we would have to pay someone to get the boys on the schoolbus, off the schoolbus, pick up our daughter from daycare, etc...). Now we could say screw it, my wife needs to work so she can say she is financially independent, but the reality is that would actually be detrimental to our family (plus as I mentioned, she hates her job, so why would I force her to still work when I bust my ass day in and day out at work so I can provide a better life for her and the kids).

I do recognize that maybe we are one offs? I am fortunate that I have an awesome wife and we have a strong marriage, so there is zero concern about it ending. If something did happen to me financially her and my kids would be set for quite a while, and still she could very easily get back into her career if needed. I have busted my ass for many years, will continue to bust my ass for many more years to come so my wife and kids can have a good life, so in my mind that does not involve forcing my wife to go to a job that she hates. Now down the road, when all the kids are in school, if she wants to start looking at some different career paths just to keep her busy, I would gladly be in support of that.

I definitely understand the concern of being financially dependent on someone else.


----------



## thefam

jld said:


> Thank you, Ele.
> 
> 
> 
> Tbh, I really like my life just the way I live it now. I just don't feel as productive as some of the folks I read about here, or know in real life.


JLD I believe I shared with you some time ago that maybe a go getter would have been better for my H as a mate. At the time I was feeling kind of ungrateful for not appreciating the clients I had and that I should be seeking to make flipping our main source of income. You were so encouraging to me then that it caused me to re-examine where I was, my goals, and to not be concerned about who I was NOT. This was shared in the group so I can't repost it here. Remember? So I can freely roll with who I am, what brings me joy and fulfillment and not compare myself with what brings fulfillment to others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## thefam

EllisRedding said:


> Do I think financial independence is necessary for both people in a marriage, honestly, no. For example, in my situation, when my wife and I got married we were both working. She did very well with work (even though she hates it lol). After our first kid she kept working. After our second kid she decided to go part time. A big part of this, my career had continued to take off so financially we didn't need Now we could say screw it, my wife needs to work so she can say she is financially independent, but the reality is that would actually be detrimental to our family (plus as I mentioned, she hates her job, so why would I force her to still work when I bust my ass day in and day out at work so I can provide a better life for her and the kids).
> 
> I do recognize that maybe we are one offs? I am fortunate that I have an awesome wife and we have a strong marriage, so there is zero concern about it ending. If something did happen to me financially her and my kids would be set for quite a while, and still she could very easily get back into her career if needed. I have busted my ass for many years, will continue to bust my ass for many more years to come so my wife and kids can have a good life, so in my mind that does not involve forcing my wife to go to a job that she hates. Now down the road, when all the kids are in school, if she wants to start looking at some different career paths just to keep her busy, I would gladly be in support of that.
> 
> I definitely understand the concern of being financially dependent on someone else.


OMG your situation and the way you feel about it us so much like my H! It was his idea long before we conceived (took us 5 years ) that I be a SAHM. I HATED my job too (call center for a huge government program) and was completely on board. And he always says no point in both of us busting our a$$ for somebody else's business if we don't have to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

thefam said:


> JLD I believe I shared with you some time ago that maybe a go getter would have been better for my H as a mate. At the time I was feeling kind of ungrateful for not appreciating the clients I had and that I should be seeking to make flipping our main source of income. You were so encouraging to me then that it caused me to re-examine where I was, my goals, and to not be concerned about who I was NOT. This was shared in the group so I can't repost it here. Remember? So I can freely roll with who I am, what brings me joy and fulfillment and not compare myself with what brings fulfillment to others.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't remember specifically, but I can see myself doing that. Those are indeed my core values.

I need a taste of my own medicine sometimes, tfam.  I appreciate your and the other posters on this thread doing that for me.


----------



## Married but Happy

I think it is a choice for each couple to make based on their circumstances and priorities. I do feel that every able adult should be able to support themselves at a minimum, even if they don't actually need or choose to do so. There are practical considerations, for situations where a spouse dies and there aren't sufficient resources to live on, or when job loss or divorce results in the same. And what do you do once your kids have left home and you still have 20 or 30 years remaining until typical retirement age? That can be a critical time in a relationship, too, as that's when many break up - the milestone of no children left at home.

From my perspective, I would not want to marry a non-earning spouse. The risks are too great for our financial security, and the downside is much greater if the relationship eventually fails. Circumstances can change with time, of course, but one of my initial conditions for dating someone means dating a self-supporting person.


----------



## FeministInPink

lifeistooshort said:


> There are a lot of people like this.....plenty of men who don't want to work but have to. Not unique to women.....it's a human thing.
> 
> And said women think that until they find themselves in a position where they can't manage.


True, but that's not really what I meant... sure, not a lot of people WANT to work, and would much rather be doing nothing, lying on the beach and sipping Mai Tais. 

You said if you gave your ex the option to be a SAHD, he would stay home and just do nothing.

What I'm talking about is a little bit different. There are some women, like my sister, who feel like their purpose in life is to have kids and be a mom. She made a comment the other day about how her body is just *made* for having babies. And if she could, she would quit her job it a hot minute to be a SAHM, not because she doesn't want to work, but because she wants to be a *full-time mom*. She wants a "Cheaper by the Dozen" household, and she wants to love on those kids and make a happy home for them and her husband, and do all the cleaning (she LOVES cleaning), and all the cooking, and shuttle everyone back and forth and volunteer for every PTA thing and be a Girl Scout Troop Leader and a Boy Scout Den Mother and chaperone every trip and organize the bake sale and help in the library and every other thing. And when her kids are grown, she would do all that stuff for her grandkids and give them all free daycare and babysitting.

She can't do this because her husband doesn't make enough money, nor does he get benefits (all health insurance and other benefits are through my sister's job), so they can't afford it right now. She's also pregnant with her third right now, and the way things are right now, 3 kids is the max they can afford, but they want more. This is why they've come up with the plan for my BIL to go back to school; hopefully, he'll be able to get a job that will allow her to quit or scale back her hours, and will also make it more affordable for them to have more kids. In which case, they will also need to get a bigger house


----------



## jorgegene

EleGirl said:


> I think that having is a family, raising and homeschooling so many children is definitely "enough" for a woman in her life time.
> 
> *I doubt that anyone says on their death bed that they wish they had worked more at their job. But most people do wish that they has spent more time on the most important things in life... their family.*
> 
> You are lucky to have a husband who gave you the opportunity to concentrate on your children and family. Don't ever regret taking advantage of it and doing a great job of it.
> 
> The only reason I asked the question is that you seem to be looking beyond being a SAHM and wondering what's out there and questioning your life. Don't let that diminish what you have done and what you have.


kind of the bottom line. right on.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I agree with Ele. It's great to look forward, and you have so many great years left, but do not let it diminish what you've already done.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> ((((SA)))) You are such a sweetheart!
> 
> My heart is clearly at home, with my family. My life choices show that.
> 
> But it is a financial risk. All our eggs are in one basket.


 But your basket is pretty BIG -with your husband's profession...(at least comparing to our blue collar eggs)....if you have adequate life insurance...and you trust him to be honorable & true - saying this in post #52.. it's not as much about the money.. your house is paid off...not in any debt...

This surely eases your mind... I know you PLAN, it wouldn't be like you to not have those things covered... there is a safety net in the event of -let's say his passing, if the worst happens.. 



> And I was a serious student. I see that in my daughter. And I guess I do feel a little left behind, a little irrelevant. I did the best I could, but she is just much smarter, and in the right areas. She will always be in charge of her life, completely.
> 
> *And I admire my daughter. I admire everyone who does a STEM degree. Those are really hard! *
> 
> *You should see the pages and pages of calculations my daughter does. She has often spent most of a weekend studying calculus or physics or some really hard sounding engineering course. *
> 
> I really admire that. I really admire people who study hard subjects, who devote themselves to mastering difficult material. I respect that kind of study ethic so much.
> 
> *We saw my sister-in-law's family over Christmas. Her sister's husband has a degree in physics, and a master's in computer science. He is in charge of the IT dept. at a university. I bet his mother was so proud of him. *


 It's THIS you richly admire/ deeply respect in others...add this with KNOWING you , too , had that potential to reach these sort of heights ...had your early years been more stable & confident / focused ....a better family life could have made a tremendous difference here !....that's what I see anyway...

Thankfully your kids have *this stability*...freeing them to focus 100% into their career...knowing they have a safe place to fall... (I feel this way about my own life.. I didn't have it either.. but we've given it to them)..I think all parents want to give their children the opportunities THEY didn't have or missed... 

I've looked over my teen yrs many times feeling... had it not been the way it was.. I might not be with my husband today... Have you ever thought that our experiences , whether good or bad really...still they have a way of shaping us/ molding us -caring more about certain things.. that we could have missed what was in front of us... I think we all TRY to make sense & gleam the good no matter where we've been... we have to... or we'll feel like we did everything wrong !

I think me & you were both wanting to feel Loved by someone - a place to call "home"...when we met our husbands.... we could have passed them up... had a whole different life.. less kids.. fighting over how many kids.. Many men just don't want kids -let alone get married. 

You get to revel in your daughters triumphs.. that may bring you more JOY and pride over it being your own..imagine if you never had her.. We hope to see 2 sons become Engineers... given neither of us had a college degree... this is HUGE for us... 

Can I share what I admire in others..and let me give you an example.. I had an interview yesterday... will be starting a new Job in May...working during the summer months...(part time along with college students)... The lady who hires is a good friend of mine. I know I'm in - if I want it...

I admire HER... she's worked since age 16 with the handicapped, 30 some years there....her LOVE for these people , how she interacts with them, she lights them up, teases them, gets them laughing..... it blew me away...but I already KNEW cause I KNOW HER.... I got tears on the darn tour, along with the other woman there....not everyone can do this sort of Job, it's definitely a thankless one.....but someone's got to do it... the challenge for me is wanting to catch more of Her spirit -when I am hands on - on this job.

We've shared many a moments on the Beach, watching our kids play together. ...me probing her for insight on this....she'd speak on how these people INSPIRE HER to be a better person.. I've watched her take 3 wheel chair bound kids to a festival.. show them around...so they can get out & enjoy life like everyone else... ten there is ME... I find it all so colossally SAD .....why does God allow these things to [email protected]#.... but her worldview is something I need to "catch"... she's just an amazing person.....

Met her through our son's friendship -since 1st grade...They are not rich by others standards.. but so RICH in the ways that I think we all need... very respectable people... devoted to her husband & their 2 sons.... . 

I want to be more LIKE THAT...I deeply admire this in people... it's what I go home & talk to my husband about , because it moves me.. Told him this yesterday.. my challenge is to be more like Lori! 

I am guessing you were taken in by Dug's* intelligence* -when you met... among other things... you've always gravitated to this.. I've seen your posts on it, taking a mental note.... it's far superior to looks, or anything else..like you want to sit at their feet & learn from them.. 

My husband won me over by his giving nature, he wanted to take me under his wing, give me a better life (that protecting / providing at it's core)...I trusted everything about him...Can I say I was attracted to my husband's goodness.. (maybe cause I am evil - No I am kidding [email protected]#)....though I do have the horns between us !


But yeah.. Intelligence.. a couple months back.. we went to walk on the Kinzua Viaduct (Skywalk sight seeing area now)...half taken down by a tornado in 2003... a landmark...tallest railroad bridge in the world ... built in 1882 completed in 3 months by 125 men.. what an Engineering & history marvel this was... you stand there *in awe* HOW this could even be contemplated - let alone built before we had cars !!! 














> My daughter was just talking to me the other day about how happy she was that she was homeschooled. But she plans to send her own children to school. She wants to be free to work full-time, as she loves her field.
> 
> *She said once that she already feels a little guilty about that, not wanting to do for her kids what was done for her.*


 see there is always some sort of guilt.. we can't do it all.. we make our choices & do the best we can.. I think it's good your daughter was raised as she was.... this in itself helps her see another side.. gives her a little more diversity -and acceptance for others choices to...

Our sons all seem to hang with friends with full time working Moms.. but I think they've seen -even if we're a little more old fashioned in our approach raising our kids...it's still one that works... they know they are always welcome to hang/ crash , heck stay days ...at our house.. 



> We saw my best friend from high school over the holidays. We were talking about how well our daughter was doing. She turned to Dug and said,* "Your daughter is how J would have been if she had ever had any confidence!"*


 THAT comment right there.. it's why this thread was born.... if she said it LIKE THIS.. it had to have stung a little... but you know she meant it well.. that the potential was always there... it's a compliment..



> SA, you know who you are. You knew what you wanted. And you know the pain of not getting it right away. Your children are even more precious to you because you did not get them effortlessly.


 I guess anything we go through that builds "gratitude" in us.. is a blessing...there was some purpose to the tears, the anger , the green eyed envy along the way....

Do things happen to us for a reason.. to learn something.. 
I don't know.. but hopefully we reflect enough to find peace with our choices ..



> I feel a little bit guilty now for taking mine for granted, for thinking my life should have gone a more intellectually stimulating way. I am really lucky to have had the chance to have a family.
> 
> Dug told me the other day that when we met, I was lost. He said I could not think about the future because I was just trying to survive in the present. He said without him I would have worked full time, maybe had one kid later in life.
> 
> *He was so stable, so steady. He did not care if my past was not as clean as his. He just loved me and wanted to take care of me. He wanted a family with me. He had a vision.*


Your story has very humble beginnings.. you were thirsty for love, acceptance... He , too, wanted to take you under his wing... build a family.... he knew you were a smart cookie too, even if emotionally lost at the time..... I bet he considered this in his planning... It's been a journey Jld.....If you'd do it all over again....you know you are right where you supposed to be... for now anyway.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Jld, if STEM interests you why not look into studying something from it? Not this second of course as you're still raising kids but as they grow up and their demands on you lessen why not study something for yourself? 

It doesn't even have to be with the goal of getting a job if you don't need the money but you might enjoy the study and knowing you can do it. Think about what field interests you. 

Remember that your daughter does all thsee calculations after being home schooled by you 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## totallywarped

Although I've always worked, I've always been dependent on my husbands income as well. It would take a second job for me to pay all the bills on my own. Years ago I wanted to leave my husband (his EA) but due to financial reasons I couldn't. I stuck with him and worked things out and I have no regrets, so in a way I guess I'm glad I wasn't able to leave. Now however I've decided to go back to school (start Monday!) not only do I want to improve our families situation (no more paycheck to paycheck) but I need to know if that situation were to occur again I could leave without working 2 jobs.


----------



## FeministInPink

lifeistooshort said:


> Jld, if STEM interests you why not look into studying something from it? Not this second of course as you're still raising kids but as they grow up and their demands on you lessen why not study something for yourself?
> 
> It doesn't even have to be with the goal of getting a job if you don't need the money but you might enjoy the study and knowing you can do it. Think about what field interests you.
> 
> Remember that your daughter does all thsee calculations after being home schooled by you
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I AGREE!!!

I think you should start now, by taking courses at a community college, and then later transfer to a four-year college or university to finish your degree.

A lot of people overlook community colleges. They get a bad rap a lot of the time, because they LITERALLY have no admissions requirements. The only thing that a community college requires is that you have a high school diploma (or a GED) and a pulse. Oh, and you have to be a resident of that specific county or region. Don't let this dissuade you. 

I want you to consider starting at a community college for a couple reasons:

1. COST. You can complete up to half your coursework at a community college, and transfer that towards your BA at another college. (Community Colleges only grant 2-yr degrees, also known as Associates of Arts (AA) degree.) A four-year college is expensive. You can drastically reduce your costs if you take your core/distribution courses at a community college, and transfer them in. If you take the first half of your coursework part-time at a community college, you will only need to do 2 yrs as a full-time undergrad student.

2. The content for many of these core/distribution courses is comparable to four-year colleges. When asked to compare the content of intro economics courses at Ivy-league versus a community college, the director of our Econ program said, "It's the same content--they're going to use similar textbooks, if not the exact same book. What's more important is the student's performance and how hard they work." The other thing about going to a community college compared to a four-year college--this isn't guaranteed, but these core courses at a community college might be taught by a full-time professor, whereas they might be taught by a grad student at a four-year college/university. The practice varies from school to school--all I'm saying is that a 4-yr college isn't necessarily guaranteed to be a better education.

(And a side note for your daughter, who is looking at schools: a big-name school doesn't necessarily mean a better education. I've visited colleges all around the country, and small, liberal arts colleges consistently have the most engaged and active faculty, and they are VERY invested in their students. I don't see this as much at the Ivies, big state schools, and other big, "brand name" schools--the ones with the big price tags. If your daughter wants to go to grad school, a small school with a strong program and an involved faculty is the way to go, and then focus on a big-name school for graduate work, because that's where the funding is. I mean, if she gets a full-ride to Harvard, she should go, but she shouldn't overlook smaller schools. They have a lot to offer.)

3. It will help you ease back into school. You'll be able to start off slow, just taking one class at a time. Half of your coursework towards your BA will be approximately 60 credits (depending on the degree-granting institution), or 15-20 courses, depending on the credit weight of each course. If you start now and take one course each fall and another each spring, you will finish those 60 credits right around the time your youngest finishes high school. You and your youngest would be applying to colleges at the same time! (But you would graduate first.)

4. Because you're only doing one class at a time, you'll have the opportunity to try out a lot of different courses in the STEM field before you have to choose which one you want. This is a huge advantage that full-time students DON'T have. Full-time students are expected to choose a major by the end of their first year (usually); I've seen both undergrads and grad students flounder around trying to figure out what they want, and the choice they make seems almost random because they feel rushed (or pressured by someone to choose something), and it turns out bad for them. You have the opportunity to make a more deliberate choice.

5. This one's from personal experience. I completed the last 5 courses of my BA part-time, 1-per-semester; I also did my MA on a part-time basis, usually one-class per semester. I found that I absorbed more and had a better learning experience as 1) an adult learner and 2) a part-time student. It allowed me to intently focus on one course at a time, rather than 4-5 at a time. Because of that experience, I think if I went back to school full-time, I would be a much better student now.

6. A lot of community college professors are adjuncts, not full-time academics. This can actually be a very good thing for you as an adult learner for a number of reasons. First, those of us who work in education LOVE adult learners/alternative students, because we know you're not going through the motions, we know that you REALLY want this. That's not really related to the adjunt thing, though. The thing about adjuncts is this: they are working in the field, and could be a great networking resource for you, even if they aren't working in the same field that you want to work in. That network is going to help you professionally. It's going to help you get internships, which will be crucial, and it will help you find jobs. And you may find, that because of your adult learner status, the professors might be more inclined to help you with this kind of stuff. But you have to get to know them, and let them get to know you--and because you'll be older than some of the other students, that may be easier for you than for the younger students. These faculty members may also have some pull to help get you into the four-year college you want to attend.

6. More opportunities for professional development. Because you'll be at this for some time, with the networking and such, you may be able to arrange for more opportunities for and less traditional professional development. Because being a full-time mom will make it pretty hard to do summer internships (although once your youngest can drive, it's doable), that's not really a possibility. But--with the support of Dug and other family members, you could perhaps do things like an intensive one-week residency somewhere, or work on short-term research projects, or things like that. These are all opportunities to develop your professional network and grown your skill set.

7. You would be setting a great example for your kids. You could have homework time (does that exist for home-schooled kids?) where you do your homework while they are doing yours. You're putting your money where your mouth is, by showing them how important education is, and that it's a life-long pursuit.


----------



## lifeistooshort

Duguesclin said:


> Wow, 40 years of marriage and she gets 4 years of alimony. Sad.
> 
> Then you have the guys who cry because they believe the court is stacked against men. Pathetic.


Right? She was supposed to train for a job in her 60's.


----------



## lifeistooshort

jld said:


> Life, that NYT article is very powerful. Thank you for linking it.


You know what I think is the saddest part? I forget if she referenced it in this article or I read it in another interview with her but her husband died within a few years of ditching her thanks to his drinking. He had grandkids he never met, managed to mend fences with a couple of their kids (I believe they had 6) and now has the legacy of being a scumbag in the family. And for what? So he could pursue a cheap h0?

Seems like such a high price to pay. She ultimately did manage to make something of herself in her 60's.....truly a remarkable woman. And she still had her family.

You have to wonder if on his deathbed he thought it was worth it.

Very sad.


----------



## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> Jld, if STEM interests you why not look into studying something from it? Not this second of course as you're still raising kids but as they grow up and their demands on you lessen why not study something for yourself?
> 
> It doesn't even have to be with the goal of getting a job if you don't need the money but you might enjoy the study and knowing you can do it. Think about what field interests you.
> 
> Remember that your daughter does all thsee calculations after being home schooled by you
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, life.  

I have to say, though, that she handled her studies on her own. That is part of our method of homeschooling. 

It is not that STEM interests me; actually it looks really hard and I just don't have the talent to do it. But I respect it. Greatly.

I do think I am going to have to do some studying. I value knowledge and intelligence. Again, greatly.


----------



## jld

@FeministInPink

What a post! Thank you for all that info! 

The STEM comment was kind of in envy of my daughter's talents. I really don't have any inclination towards anything technical, sad to say. I just admire it greatly in other people. 

Our daughter is a junior at a state school. Actually, she is in Switzerland this year on a study abroad program. She is taking all the engineering classes she would at home, but in French. Great experience for her.

Again, thank you for all the time and effort you put into that post. That was very kind and generous of you.


----------



## lifeistooshort

jld said:


> Thanks, life.
> 
> I have to say, though, that she handled her studies on her own. That is part of our method of homeschooling.
> 
> It is not that STEM interests me; actually it looks really hard and I just don't have the talent to do it. But I respect it. Greatly.
> 
> I do think I am going to have to do some studying. I value knowledge and intelligence. Again, greatly.


Whatever you find interesting you should pursue 

STEM is completely doable but it does have to be something you want. It's hard to be motivated if you're not really into what you're doing.


----------



## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> Whatever you find interesting you should pursue
> 
> STEM is completely doable but it does have to be something you want. *It's hard to be motivated if you're not really into what you're doing.*


I totally agree.

That's why I could not go to grad school. I just did not have any passion for anything. And you just cannot do intense studies without passion.


----------



## lifeistooshort

jld said:


> I totally agree.
> 
> That's why I could not go to grad school. I just did not have any passion for anything. And you just cannot do intense studies without passion.


I started out studying chemistry and I just could not get motivated for it. I ended up dropping out.


----------



## jld

lifeistooshort said:


> I started out studying chemistry and I just could not get motivated for it. I ended up dropping out.


That is interesting. You certainly already had a hard undergrad major.

What made you decide to start the grad program in chemistry?


----------



## FeministInPink

jld said:


> @FeministInPink
> 
> What a post! Thank you for all that info!
> 
> The STEM comment was kind of in envy of my daughter's talents. I really don't have any inclination towards anything technical, sad to say. I just admire it greatly in other people.
> 
> Our daughter is a junior at a state school. Actually, she is in Switzerland this year on a study abroad program. She is taking all the engineering classes she would at home, but in French. Great experience for her.
> 
> Again, thank you for all the time and effort you put into that post. That was very kind and generous of you.


You are very welcome! I work in higher ed (graduate level) admissions, so I advise people in this kind of stuff all the time. I'm happy to share my knowledge 

If you're not sure of your area of interest, that makes community college an even better option. You can try all different kinds of stuff and see what really captures your interest. (And those courses will still be transferable. )

Or, if you're not willing to invest the money to try stuff out check out Coursera and other MOOCs. This will give you the chance to try out college level coursework in a variety of disciplines for free. The only downside to this is you cannot get credit for these courses. 

One avenue I would advise AGAINST is for-profit degree programs, such as Strayer or Phoenix. You know, the ones that have ads everywhere. They tend to be predatory in their marketing and admissions processes; they purpose admit students who they know will not be able to do the work, and are misleading about their refund policies, so the students have to take out loans to pay their tuition, but they drop out because they can't manage the work. The school makes money without doing anything, and the student walks away with a load of debt and no degree. Furthermore, the instruction is questionable, they over-enroll courses, and the degrees have very little value.


----------



## lifeistooshort

jld said:


> That is interesting. You certainly already had a hard undergrad major.
> 
> What made you decide to start the grad program in chemistry?


It was undergrad in chemistry when I was right out of high school. 

It just didn't interest me enough to continue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

lifeistooshort said:


> It was undergrad in chemistry when I was right out of high school.
> 
> It just didn't interest me enough to continue.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd be sleeping in class.. I was so lousy at math in high school.. I never entertained I could go to college.. I'd need more than tutors I'm afraid.. 

My husband was not a Brain in High school either.... though he was far better at Math over me !.... he doesn't even like to read (this bugs me since all our children seem to take after him!)....

I mean.. some of us just aren't cut out as "college material" either.. sometimes I want to ask.. "is there shame in this ?" 

Beings we are the "little people".. I just can't look down on others ...due to not pursuing degrees & such, or I'd have to cut up on myself & my husband... I shouldn't go there. 

Some are destined to work with their hands..or work with people.. . I still find it honorable....someone has to do it.

Having the foresight, being responsible to have a "back up plan" is very important though...getting back to the subject of this thread...

I pretty much have mine set... where I will work -if need be...and how I'd manage... if in the event Husband passes.. I'll never be "well to do" --but that's OK ! I don't need this for happiness.. but I do need to be able to pay the incoming bills... have a decent car...and hopefully manage to stay in good health to continue on.... 

I'm confident with my frugal tendencies, being debt free, kids are older now.. can fend for themselves (mostly), and my work ethic.. 

Always on time, never one to call off...I care to please my bosses/ customers, to be an asset to the company ... I really think I would be fine.


----------



## always_alone

Freedom has always been important to me, and because of that, I have always refused to be dependent on anyone else.

But as I see it, financial independence and freedom are not the same thing. For sure, money smooths manh pathways and can make it quite a bit easier to do whatever one wants. But money is also anchor, weighing you down. Once you have a lot of stuff, property, investments, etc,. you have to take care of it all, and the more you have, the more work it is. And if you don't look after it properly, you can lose it all.

The real freedom, IMHO, comes from being willing to take the necessary risks to pursue one's passions, dreams, fulfillment. 

I've also learned the hard way that "dependence" is not a four-letter word. There is much to be said for the connection and community that it brings.


----------



## jld

I've missed you these last few weeks, @always_alone. Glad to see you back.


----------



## FeministInPink

@SimplyAmorous -- I agree, college isn't for everyone. One of the thing that bothers me about our higher ed system in the US is this: while college may not BE for everyone, it is still not accessible to everyone (in the US), due to our single-payer model and climbing tuition rates. This is why I advocate taking advantage of the community college and state school system, which can make a college education much more affordable. Sure, most Ivies and top-tier universities will offer full rides to students whose parents are poor, but you still have to be smart enough to get into one of those universities, so it only helps a select few; it's not a sustainable for or can be expanded for a larger population. 

And because college isn't for everyone, this is why I believe we (in the US) need to improve our vocational training and opportunities, and why a living wage is so important. Why should someone who works hard and honestly apply for food stamps? People shouldn't be denied a minimum standard of living because they weren't cut out for college; it doesn't mean they are worth LESS as a human being, and it definitely doesn't mean they should be treated at such! But that is what our economic system does.

My cousin once argued against a living wage, saying that someone not happy earning minimum wage should go to college to implement his lot in life, and then he would make more than minimum wage. Only 30% of the US population has a BA degree, and about 11% hold a master's/higher degree. According to my cousin's argument, 70% of our population deserves to live in poverty because they don't have a degree. There's something clearly wrong with that argument.

If (God forbid!) jld's husband dies, she shouldn't have to worry if she can find a job to support herself and her kids, but because she doesn't have a BA, it will be pretty tough. Heck, it's pretty hard for recent grads with degrees to find jobs sometimes! There's something wrong with the system when people who WANT to work can't make enough to make ends meet.

And here's the kicker: people that earn more SPEND MORE. The more money that's spread around to more people--essentially, if you increase the size and income of your middle class--they will spend more money, boost the economy and create more jobs. Rich people don't need more money; after a certain point, whatever they spend doesn't have much impact. A strong middle class is what drives the economy; if the system is working against the middle class and pushing them closer to the poverty line, they can't spend as much, and the economy continues to slow.

Sorry to thread jack and take things off the rails a little bit, but it is relevant to the accessibility of higher education, and whether one needs a degree 

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


----------



## Ikaika

Even before we got married there were things we talked about in practical terms - number of children even the approximate spacing and when we would start having children (five years after our wedding). The timing of when we wanted to start our family coincided with three events:

1. My wife needs to finish graduate school. This was to provide her with professional training and flexibility for whatever economic challenges came our way.

2. I was a poor post-doc, children cost money and we knew we were in no position for this undertaking. 

3. We wanted time to get to know each other as husband and wife before introducing someone else to our lives.

But, to the thread topic - #1 above was important. We have never talked of divorce, but one can never plan for the unfortunate situations in life. Thus, I thought it was important that my wife had skills to be independent if the the situation arose unexpectedly. I was the one that pushed her toward graduate school (Speech and Language Pathologist). As soon as our first son was born, she quit her full time job (in the school system) and did contract work (self employed). This gave her the opportunity to work her hours around raising two sons. It also helped her to maintain her license status and skills. She basically worked part time during the early years. Once our youngest entered the 1st grade she went back to work full time working for early intervention. She deals with a lot of medically challenged cases, children born with severe disabilities helping them to communicate via any means available. Needless to say, she could, if she had to, to be financially independent. She even has her own supplementary retirement setup. These, we felt were important and we discuss finances regularly. It is an important part of marriage, open financial disclosure. 

Having said all this, I do think it is important for either spouse to have financial independence, even if divorce never happens other circumstance may arise. Life is fragile. However, it also means both partners need to have equal share in household duties as well as training kids that they too contribute to the mess. Thus they need to understand that they are to be part of the clean up effort. They argue and try to negotiate, but in the end dad wins. So my sons understand by example, it is the complete package they need to bring to life when they come of age. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

@FeministInPink I have a BA. I used to teach high school Spanish. I am also certified for ESL. Just have not worked in over 2 decades.


----------



## Ikaika

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'd be sleeping in class.. I was so lousy at math in high school.. I never entertained I could go to college.. I'd need more than tutors I'm afraid..
> 
> My husband was not a Brain in High school either.... though he was far better at Math over me !.... he doesn't even like to read (this bugs me since all our children seem to take after him!)....
> 
> I mean.. some of us just aren't cut out as "college material" either.. sometimes I want to ask.. "is there shame in this ?"
> 
> Beings we are the "little people".. I just can't look down on others ...due to not pursuing degrees & such, or I'd have to cut up on myself & my husband... I shouldn't go there.
> 
> Some are destined to work with their hands..or work with people.. . I still find it honorable....someone has to do it.
> 
> Having the foresight, being responsible to have a "back up plan" is very important though...getting back to the subject of this thread...
> 
> I pretty much have mine set... where I will work -if need be...and how I'd manage... if in the event Husband passes.. I'll never be "well to do" --but that's OK ! I don't need this for happiness.. but I do need to be able to pay the incoming bills... have a decent car...and hopefully manage to stay in good health to continue on....
> 
> I'm confident with my frugal tendencies, being debt free, kids are older now.. can fend for themselves (mostly), and my work ethic..
> 
> Always on time, never one to call off...I care to please my bosses/ customers, to be an asset to the company ... I really think I would be fine.



Being a college graduate does not necessarily make one smarter or a better person. So, I've never been one to judge a person based on the letters after their name. Even for me, I find it meaningless. 

However, the American employment opportunities have changed a lot and will continue to change. Some may see it as a racket, but there is also the reality that one can't ignore. A college degree is almost a necessity for any youth wanting to have an open door for a well paying career (some exceptions, building and labor). 

Although, in your situation, this may not be necessary. A willing heart to work with the disabled goes far beyond any degree. A bit of training and you can be a valuable asset. I can tell you from experience, that some of the aides that have worked with my son (a few with only basic training) were way better at helping him reach his goals than those with three letters after their name. As parents we recognize what is important and some qualities over degrees are sought after. You will do fine. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## always_alone

jld said:


> @FeministInPink I have a BA. I used to teach high school Spanish. I am also certified for ESL. Just have not worked in over 2 decades.


Those are both seriously marketable skills, even with a 2-decade gap in employment. Lots of opportunities there, should you choose to pursue them.

Where the real risk lies, IMHO, is when a person doesn't acquire or cultivate life skills. I once worked with this woman whose husband died. They had been married over 20 years, and he had taken care of all the finances, all the household tasks. He was the one who understood their credits and debts, the one who knew how to manage taxes, the one who fixed all that was broken, the one who hired in contractors and repair people when necessary. When he died, she was completely lost, and had absolutely no idea what to do. It was a real struggle for her, but slowly she learned how to manage all those things, obtain employment, and look after herself. 

Her main regret was that she had not taken an interest in developing these skills earlier, and leaving so much of these things entirely in his hands.


----------



## jld

always_alone said:


> Those are both seriously marketable skills, even with a 2-decade gap in employment. Lots of opportunities there, should you choose to pursue them.
> 
> Where the real risk lies, IMHO, is when a person doesn't acquire or cultivate life skills. I once worked with this woman whose husband died. They had been married over 20 years, and he had taken care of all the finances, all the household tasks. He was the one who understood their credits and debts, the one who knew how to manage taxes, the one who fixed all that was broken, the one who hired in contractors and repair people when necessary. When he died, she was completely lost, and had absolutely no idea what to do. It was a real struggle for her, but slowly she learned how to manage all those things, obtain employment, and look after herself.
> 
> Her main regret was that she had not taken an interest in developing these skills earlier, and leaving so much of these things entirely in his hands.


Good points, aa.

I used to do our bills and taxes. But as it became possible to pay online, Dug set that up instead.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

always_alone said:


> Where the real risk lies, IMHO, is when a person doesn't acquire or cultivate life skills. I once worked with this woman whose husband died. They had been married over 20 years, *and he had taken care of all the finances, all the household tasks. He was the one who understood their credits and debts, the one who knew how to manage taxes, the one who fixed all that was broken, the one who hired in contractors and repair people when necessary. When he died, she was completely lost, and had absolutely no idea what to do. * It was a real struggle for her, but slowly she learned how to manage all those things, obtain employment, and look after herself.
> 
> *Her main regret was that she had not taken an interest in developing these skills earlier, and leaving so much of these things entirely in his hands*.


Hey this makes me feel like I'm not so bad..I have LIFE SKILLS ! Outside of fixing broken things.. he's the primary Handy man...









I do all of this In our marriage ...It would be my husband who'd be lost .... I have a book full of all he needs to know though ..... every credit card, phone #'s, websites, usernames/ passwords. a page pocket for each kid, anything he'd need at his fingertips.... 

He never handles a phone call, writes a check, never sets foot in the bank.. 

I handle everything about our Taxes, Colleges (did 2 Fafsa's yesterday), credit cards, utilities, our CD's... he may order 2 things online a year without me (his coins) and some downloader thing he uses.. but outside of that.. I'm the household Secretary...

I have the Paypal account, the Amazon account , the Ebay account. I'm also the one who calls any Contractors, schedules the Oil man ....plans every vacation... 

I like to be on top of things . ... This frees him up for the stuff I can't do, maximizing our time..... like vehicle repairs, roof repairs, chainsawing a down tree, black topping the driveway..I can help but he's the Leader....That way we have more *free time* for us / the kids when he's home..


----------



## lifeistooshort

FeministInPink said:


> @SimplyAmorous -- I agree, college isn't for everyone. One of the thing that bothers me about our higher ed system in the US is this: while college may not BE for everyone, it is still not accessible to everyone (in the US), due to our single-payer model and climbing tuition rates. This is why I advocate taking advantage of the community college and state school system, which can make a college education much more affordable. Sure, most Ivies and top-tier universities will offer full rides to students whose parents are poor, but you still have to be smart enough to get into one of those universities, so it only helps a select few; it's not a sustainable for or can be expanded for a larger population.
> 
> And because college isn't for everyone, this is why I believe we (in the US) need to improve our vocational training and opportunities, and why a living wage is so important. Why should someone who works hard and honestly apply for food stamps? People shouldn't be denied a minimum standard of living because they weren't cut out for college; it doesn't mean they are worth LESS as a human being, and it definitely doesn't mean they should be treated at such! But that is what our economic system does.
> 
> My cousin once argued against a living wage, saying that someone not happy earning minimum wage should go to college to implement his lot in life, and then he would make more than minimum wage. Only 30% of the US population has a BA degree, and about 11% hold a master's/higher degree. According to my cousin's argument, 70% of our population deserves to live in poverty because they don't have a degree. There's something clearly wrong with that argument.
> 
> If (God forbid!) jld's husband dies, she shouldn't have to worry if she can find a job to support herself and her kids, but because she doesn't have a BA, it will be pretty tough. Heck, it's pretty hard for recent grads with degrees to find jobs sometimes! There's something wrong with the system when people who WANT to work can't make enough to make ends meet.
> 
> And here's the kicker: people that earn more SPEND MORE. The more money that's spread around to more people--essentially, if you increase the size and income of your middle class--they will spend more money, boost the economy and create more jobs. Rich people don't need more money; after a certain point, whatever they spend doesn't have much impact. A strong middle class is what drives the economy; if the system is working against the middle class and pushing them closer to the poverty line, they can't spend as much, and the economy continues to slow.
> 
> Sorry to thread jack and take things off the rails a little bit, but it is relevant to the accessibility of higher education, and whether one needs a degree
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk



It bothers me that college is pushed on everyone and it's not politically correct to admit someone might not be college material. So instead of talking to a kid about a trade where they could make a good living they're pushed toward college programs they're not prepared for. Or they run up a ton of debt to get a degree that pays very little and then moan about how they can't get out of debt. 

Student loans are the only program where you can borrow am unlimited amount of money with absolutely no plan of how you're going to pay it back or what the market looks like market looks like for the product you're getting. 

Nobody would loan me $200,000 for a Honda just because the dealership wanted to charge it because it isn't worth that much. 

Nobody would lend me money without me demonstrating that it would be a good investment for them. 

Colleges are free to charge whatever they want because the feds loan money with no regard for anything and kids are brainwashed to think that every degree that interests them is worth something. 


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FeministInPink

jld said:


> @FeministInPink I have a BA. I used to teach high school Spanish. I am also certified for ESL. Just have not worked in over 2 decades.


How did I not know that? I feel like a tool... so, so sorry!!! From your initial post, I thought you meant that you didn't have your BA. My apologies. 

Well, if you're looking to go to grad school, I can advise on that!

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

FeministInPink said:


> How did I not know that? I feel like a tool... so, so sorry!!! From your initial post, I thought you meant that you didn't have your BA. My apologies.
> 
> Well, if you're looking to go to grad school, I can advise on that!
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


You are very kind to offer your help. I don't know what I will end up doing, but thank you for your willingness to share your knowledge and experience. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## SimplyAmorous

lifeistooshort said:


> It bothers me that college is pushed on everyone and it's not politically correct to admit someone might not be college material. *So instead of talking to a kid about a trade where they could make a good living they're pushed toward college programs they're not prepared for. Or they run up a ton of debt to get a degree that pays very little and then moan about how they can't get out of debt.*


 this IS prevalent, isn't it? My husband's brother tried college.. dropped out.. he got into Construction.. he's done very well for himself (at least to our standards.. College wasn't for him).. I doubt it would have been for my husband either...

He did get a computer Certificate from a School of Business early on...though it was never put to use... None of the interviews he went for offered Benefits, so it wasn't worth it for all the more he would be making...so he stayed where he was... 

Our oldest has nothing good to say about College, their high prices/ fees , he feels he wasted 4 yrs of his life (oh the social aspect he loved though)... feels the piece of paper is worthless.. (I tell him he's an awful influence when this comes up, to shut his mouth around his brothers)....he has a Degree in Psychology.. 

I think he's right though... this job I am getting pays almost $3 more an hour over what son just started out months ago - requiring a degree... he was telling us how this 17 yr old he knows is making more ...go figure. He'll be strapped with loans for some time.. and he's making peanuts.. he regrets what he took.  Oh it happens.. 

Thought I'd look up worthless Degrees.. Yep.. Psychology is at #2 !! 

10 Worst College Degrees to Earn in 2015 - The Simple Dollar

Speaking of Life Skills / Soft skills / Non-academic Skills.. whatever one wants to call it....this is a nice write up.. at 2nd son's Graduation.. one of the Teachers spoke on this article.. it caught my attention.. so I googled it when I got home... 

Nonacademic Skills Are Key To Success. But What Should We Call Them?


----------



## jld

Thanks for posting that article, SA. I do think it is important to choose a major carefully, unless earnings after college are not considered important.

I chose Spanish and ESL because I knew it would be easy to find a job with those certifications.

If I had met Dug during college (he actually was not living far from my sister at one point), instead of after, I would have dropped the teacher certification and ESL, and done a degree in liberal arts Spanish, French, and German instead. With his willingness to support me, I would have just concentrated on my interests and not been so practical.

Oh, Dug, why didn't we meet earlier?
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## heartsbeating

To your opening post, my husband has always earned more than me. The number isn't what solely drives him or is necessarily the focus. He's not a 'yes' man and where possible, will look to what he can learn. He didn't have mentors or role models growing up and will listen to those he respects for what they have learned for themselves. He doesn't have a degree although it's something he may consider for the tick-box. We have each been the sole provider at some point. When we lived overseas, I snapped up a role and financially supported us for an extended time as hubs couldn't get a break finding employment. 

I dropped out of high-school. I couldn't say it's something I regret however if I'd had a good mentor, I may have taken a more focused path or at the very least, had greater awareness of options. Still I jokingly say that I hustle and I've managed okay for myself. I've consciously joined companies and organizations that are notable and recognizable. Along with good work, this has helped me. At one organization, an exec suggested they groom me for leadership. They'd need me to get a degree which the org could help to fund. I remember sitting in a meeting one day, feeling both grateful to be there while recognizing this wasn't what I was about. And perhaps frustratingly to myself at times, I follow that. I do feel fortunate to have the luxury of options. 

I've taken the plunge and completely changed direction. My husband refers to it as a calling. I am working and studying in this new area. It's low-paying. Even though I didn't go into this for the money, I need to be earning more for us in the long run. I'll also need to remain challenged for myself. The manager said I'd emerged as a leader and my job title received a 'promotion'. The typical path would be to work towards that upon completion of studies. It's relevant as time is of the essence with where I may take this. I'm considering university after these studies while I work. My husband is supportive; financially and otherwise. 

I don't feel dependent on him. I do feel appreciative of him. We encourage each other to take risks and try different things - while balancing what that means to us as a couple and the lifestyle we enjoy. I'd encourage someone's independence for their sense of self - and not necessarily financial. Sometimes it calls for sacrifices and flexibility. 

When I was working in an office, we hired a woman who hadn't been employed for a decade as she was raising her children. The recruiter forwarded her resume as a bit of a long shot. She had life-skills that were evident. The rest is simply learning and training. She stepped up when her husband lost his job. In the interview, she told us how nervous she was. We were the first company she'd applied to and she got the role. Her honesty was endearing and she was fantastic in the team. 

To quote Herbert Spencer _*'Be bold, be bold, and everywhere be bold!'*_


----------



## FeministInPink

SimplyAmorous said:


> this IS prevalent, isn't it? My husband's brother tried college.. dropped out.. he got into Construction.. he's done very well for himself (at least to our standards.. College wasn't for him).. I doubt it would have been for my husband either...
> 
> He did get a computer Certificate from a School of Business early on...though it was never put to use... None of the interviews he went for offered Benefits, so it wasn't worth it for all the more he would be making...so he stayed where he was...
> 
> Our oldest has nothing good to say about College, their high prices/ fees , he feels he wasted 4 yrs of his life (oh the social aspect he loved though)... feels the piece of paper is worthless.. (I tell him he's an awful influence when this comes up, to shut his mouth around his brothers)....he has a Degree in Psychology..
> 
> I think he's right though... this job I am getting pays almost $3 more an hour over what son just started out months ago - requiring a degree... he was telling us how this 17 yr old he knows is making more ...go figure. He'll be strapped with loans for some time.. and he's making peanuts.. he regrets what he took.  Oh it happens..
> 
> Thought I'd look up worthless Degrees.. Yep.. Psychology is at #2 !!
> 
> 10 Worst College Degrees to Earn in 2015 - The Simple Dollar
> 
> Speaking of Life Skills / Soft skills / Non-academic Skills.. whatever one wants to call it....this is a nice write up.. at 2nd son's Graduation.. one of the Teachers spoke on this article.. it caught my attention.. so I googled it when I got home...
> 
> Nonacademic Skills Are Key To Success. But What Should We Call Them?


All of this. My dad went to college because in his family, that's what you do. He's very smart, but he has dyslexia--but this was before anyone knew what dyslexia was--and so he struggled profoundly in school. He was incredibly unhappy in school, and he didn't know what to major in, so he majored in psychology. And guess what? It has done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for him professionally. 

He was laid off when I was a senior in high school, and in the (almost) 2 decades since, he has moved from low-paying job to low-paying job, because 1) the job he was laid off from really didn't give him many marketable skills; 2) you can't do anything with a BA in psychology; 3) he never got the training to move into a profession he would have been really good at.

Here's what he's good at: putting machines together, figuring out how they work, fixing them, and when the right part isn't available, figuring out a way around that and coming up with a solution. He would have been a brilliant mechanic or machinist. He builds model railroad engines from scratch. He is rebuilding two Fiats from the 1960s. He designs stage sets with moving parts and all kinds of stuff. He is BRILLIANT at this kind of thing. 

But this is blue-collar work. To do this type of work, he would have had to go to vocational school. Which was completely unacceptable in his family. Never mind that he could have made a decent living at it, better than what he had managed with a college degree. Never mind that he would have been happy.

It makes me sad to know that my dad spent his entire life doing work that made him miserable, because he was trying to make other people happy--when he should have been making himself happy. But he never had much self-esteem or self-worth to realize that was more important, or that pursuing his dreams was possible.


----------



## brooklynAnn

lifeistooshort said:


> It bothers me that college is pushed on everyone and it's not politically correct to admit someone might not be college material. So instead of talking to a kid about a trade where they could make a good living they're pushed toward college programs they're not prepared for. Or they run up a ton of debt to get a degree that pays very little and then moan about how they can't get out of debt.
> 
> Student loans are the only program where you can borrow am unlimited amount of money with absolutely no plan of how you're going to pay it back or what the market looks like market looks like for the product you're getting.
> 
> Nobody would loan me $200,000 for a Honda just because the dealership wanted to charge it because it isn't worth that much.
> 
> Nobody would lend me money without me demonstrating that it would be a good investment for them.
> 
> Colleges are free to charge whatever they want because the feds loan money with no regard for anything and kids are brainwashed to think that every degree that interests them is worth something.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I agree with this. My kids HS would only talk about college. There are no plans in place or talk about vocational school. Last year my D was telling about some of the kids who are not going to like college because they already knew they wanted to go to trade school. But they were pushed to apply to colleges. All the HS cares about is getting 100 % college acceptance and Ivy colleges acceptances. Don't matter where the kids go or what they will study.

One of my nephew went for a business degree, he is barely making #25-30,000. The other nephew went to trade school to be an electrician and he is now making 60K. With a 1/4 of the loan. He laughingly told me he is on to retirement, only 30 years more to go.

My D is doing a double computer sience and engineering major. My son will probably attend vocational school for graphics design. Who knows.

I am in the same boat as JLD, I have to figure out what I want to do with the second half of my life. The kids are going to be gone in a year's time and no one needs me anymore. I don't want to do anything with my degrees because I am at a different point in my life and don't have the same drive. I used to be in finance. 

I am thinking about doing a course/program in physical therapy or massage therapy. Trying to figure out if the financial investment would be worth it or should I just find a job. Any job. Looking at all my options.

However, if I had to make the decision to be a SAHM again, I would not have let all my licenses expired. I should have worked on something else instead of spending hours volunteering. I would have also went back to work earlier. 

My kids are very thankful I stayed home with them. My son is doing amazingly well, more than anyone could have expected. He has a learning disability and I found out if I didnt push teachers to work harder with him, they would have just given up and he would not have gotten all the help he needed. I used to live in the school. lol

My D is smart and confident. She is well adjusted and a tough cookie.

My H is happy I am home because he does not have to worry about anything. I take care of everything in the home and our finances. He is glad I did because life is much less hectic and more relaxing for us.

I just wished that I did more for myself. Oh well. My turn is coming.


----------

