# How to handle bad sex



## Faithful Wife

Based on a short post on another thread about having sex with a woman who is a starfish or sack of potatoes...

How have you handled first time bad sex? Do you instantly break up with them? If not, why didn’t you?

For me it has been a matter of degrees. If it was so bad that I just couldn’t face ever doing it again, the new relationship was ended immediately. If it was bad but I felt he could get better with my encouragement and direction, I might give it one more shot, but if still bad, it’s over.

This does not represent my choices when I first became sexually active. There was a time when the young guys I had sex with were just so clumsy and clueless that I had no idea how good men could really be at it. Once I learned, there was no going back to clumsy or clueless.

Men or women can answer. 

Wanted to add that one of the clueless clumsy ones actually needed me to lay like a bag of potatoes for him to get off. Because apparently he was so used to only getting off by humping the bed with his eyes closed. He wasn’t young, either. It was gross. So I understand at least somewhat how gross it must be for a guy to encounter a woman like that.


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## LisaDiane

What does being a "starfish" mean...?


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## Faithful Wife

When a woman just lays there and allows her guy to have sex with her, but she’s not showing any kind of enjoyment and not moving or being sexual at all. Like a star fish.


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## LisaDiane

OOOH!!! Ok, right! Lol! Kind of a funny picture, actually...!!

That would be me saying, "ok, Baby, have at me!" Haha!!


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## Butterfly_Princess

A star fish?!?!? LOL!!!

I'll just say that I agree with everything you said. I have had a mix of all types, but I never did dump any guy the first time just because he was clueless.

I'll add that I do remember one guy who could not get any kind of rhythm down and all he constantly did was push me off the bed or into the headboard. I also ended up "assisting" him with placement. I gave him like 7 more chances before I was just done with him.


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## Faithful Wife

LisaDiane said:


> OOOH!!! Ok, right! Lol! Kind of a funny picture, actually...!!
> 
> That would be me saying, "ok, Baby, have at me!" Haha!!


I think it can be done in a fun and sexy way, too. For a bit, and then we switch it up.

The term around here refers to women who only have sex that way and they are not saying anything encouraging. It’s more like hurry up and finish so I can get away from you.


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## Faithful Wife

Butterfly_Princess said:


> A star fish?!?!? LOL!!!
> 
> I'll just say that I agree with everything you said. I have had a mix of all types, but I never did dump any guy the first time just because he was clueless.


I didn’t either when I was young but I definitely have as an adult and after all my own self awareness has kicked in.

Clueless can look a bit different sometimes. It can be such a turn off that I never want to go back. An example of adult cluelessness, is a guy I was dating that I had high hopes for, became exclusive, had sex the first time and I ended it the next day. The reason was that he did and said things which he thought was him being sexy, but which showed a complete lack of connection with me. In other words he just assumed certain things would be universally sexy to all women and then applied a template to me. But he could not have been more wrong. The things he did based on his assumptions turned me off so much I never wanted to even kiss him again. Once that happens, it’s just over for me. There’s no second chances.

When I ended it I told him exactly what those things were. Not in a *****y way, just because the sex was great for him so he couldn’t understand and wanted me to explain it to him. Again, a clear lack of noticing how more and more turned off I was because he just assumed what was good for him was good for me. I tried in many ways to explain it to him and he just kept saying he could do it differently next time. 

No, dude, you can’t and won’t. It’s you and who you are that turned me off once we got naked. Your weird assumptions and the application of what was clearly some kind of template of what you think all women want. Not knowing before now (at this age) that we aren’t all the same is not something I can roll with.


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## Married but Happy

Even a starfish moves if you poke it. Some partners do not, so I always call it the _dead_ starfish if that happens. We can joke around and I'll tell her to "Assume the starfish position!" but that rarely lasts more than a minute of two.

Anyway, bad sex is a deal breaker. The first time is often awkward, but I can usually tell if there is potential. But non-participation does not get another chance. Those with poor skills and lack of enthusiasm and creativity don't get many chances before I'd end it.

I want to rock her world, and want her to rock mine! Why settle for less?


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## Sawney Beane

My approach has been to point out as gently and as sensitively as I can what my perception is. Once in a while, the response is that it's nerves, lack of practice etc, and next time there's a change, but mostly, it's a case of "most men would be glad to have the chance", and I tend to not waste my time or hers any more. Is this a "scarcity mentality"?


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## ConanHub

The worst ever was so bad that I ran and never looked back.

Mrs. C and I didn't have a good first round but I knew she was the one so we got better quickly!:grin2:

I would have to say bad sex was definitely part of a decision to keep at it or give up with past partners.

Conversely some of the most amazing sex was with a terrible person and I did stay around a little longer than I should have for her. Great sex still doesn't make up for a severe lack everything else.


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## MaiChi

Faithful Wife said:


> Based on a short post on another thread about having sex with a woman who is a starfish or sack of potatoes...
> 
> How have you handled first time bad sex? Do you instantly break up with them? If not, why didn’t you?
> 
> For me it has been a matter of degrees. If it was so bad that I just couldn’t face ever doing it again, the new relationship was ended immediately. If it was bad but I felt he could get better with my encouragement and direction, I might give it one more shot, but if still bad, it’s over.
> 
> This does not represent my choices when I first became sexually active. There was a time when the young guys I had sex with were just so clumsy and clueless that I had no idea how good men could really be at it. Once I learned, there was no going back to clumsy or clueless.
> 
> Men or women can answer.
> 
> Wanted to add that one of the clueless clumsy ones actually needed me to lay like a bag of potatoes for him to get off. Because apparently he was so used to only getting off by humping the bed with his eyes closed. He wasn’t young, either. It was gross. So I understand at least somewhat how gross it must be for a guy to encounter a woman like that.


We were both clumsy and clueless for some time till we bought a few books on the subject and started asking each other a lot of questions as we read the books. 
LOL!!!!

I remember my husband asking me questions which made me laugh a lot for how much he did no know about the female body, but then i asked same silly questions about him. 
How is anyone supposed to improve if they are not given chances to practice? My view would be that if one know a little more than the other, then they must teach the other as much as they know.


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## Sawney Beane

ConanHub said:


> The worst ever was so bad that I ran and never looked back.
> 
> Mrs. C and I didn't have a good first round but I knew she was the one so we got better quickly!:grin2:
> 
> I would have to say bad sex was definitely part of a decision to keep at it or give up with past partners.
> 
> _Conversely some of the most amazing sex was with a terrible person and I did stay around a little longer than I should have for her. Great sex still doesn't make up for a severe lack everything else._


_
_
True dat!


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## Faithful Wife

MaiChi said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Based on a short post on another thread about having sex with a woman who is a starfish or sack of potatoes...
> 
> How have you handled first time bad sex? Do you instantly break up with them? If not, why didn’t you?
> 
> For me it has been a matter of degrees. If it was so bad that I just couldn’t face ever doing it again, the new relationship was ended immediately. If it was bad but I felt he could get better with my encouragement and direction, I might give it one more shot, but if still bad, it’s over.
> 
> This does not represent my choices when I first became sexually active. There was a time when the young guys I had sex with were just so clumsy and clueless that I had no idea how good men could really be at it. Once I learned, there was no going back to clumsy or clueless.
> 
> Men or women can answer.
> 
> Wanted to add that one of the clueless clumsy ones actually needed me to lay like a bag of potatoes for him to get off. Because apparently he was so used to only getting off by humping the bed with his eyes closed. He wasn’t young, either. It was gross. So I understand at least somewhat how gross it must be for a guy to encounter a woman like that.
> 
> 
> 
> We were both clumsy and clueless for some time till we bought a few books on the subject and started asking each other a lot of questions as we read the books.
> LOL!!!!
> 
> I remember my husband asking me questions which made me laugh a lot for how much he did no know about the female body, but then i asked same silly questions about him.
> How is anyone supposed to improve if they are not given chances to practice? My view would be that if one know a little more than the other, then they must teach the other as much as they know.
Click to expand...

Totally agree and if there is passion then you can usually work with it.

However, there are some lovers who will not learn anything no matter how much you want them to, no matter what you say, no matter how they may seem to try. I don’t know why this is true but it just is. I think some people cannot have sex other than robotically. At this point in my life, I can tell those ones by just kissing them.


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## Faithful Wife

Sawney Beane said:


> My approach has been to point out as gently and as sensitively as I can what my perception is. Once in a while, the response is that it's nerves, lack of practice etc, and next time there's a change, but mostly, it's a case of "most men would be glad to have the chance", and I tend to not waste my time or hers any more. Is this a "scarcity mentality"?


As long as you are out once you realize you aren’t a match, sounds like the right approach to me.


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## Not

The quality and quantity of the sex in my last relationship played a role in my breaking up with him, among a lot of other things. He just wasn’t that great but I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt so I hung in there waiting to see if maybe we just needed more time to get in sync in that way.

I did try to bring it up in conversation in a lighthearted manner asking him what he would label his sex style as. I told him I was a scoop of vanilla with some jalapeño sprinkled on top. In the pool, in the car, on the back deck, on the front porch, on the roof...I was good to go anywhere and at anytime. I thought he would get a kick out of that but he literally squirmed, like the topic was painful. 

By the time I broke it off with him we hadn’t had sex in two weeks and I was super frustrated. We had been together almost three months by then and there was no way I was going to stay with someone who had such bedroom issues. 

Maybe I gave it to much time, I don’t know. Sex is very important to me because I went without for so long but I think I was just really unsure how long getting in sync should take.


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## Faithful Wife

Not said:


> The quality and quantity of the sex in my last relationship played a role in my breaking up with him, among a lot of other things. He just wasn’t that great but I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt so I hung in there waiting to see if maybe we just needed more time to get in sync in that way.
> 
> I did try to bring it up in conversation in a lighthearted manner asking him what he would label his sex style as. I told him I was a scoop of vanilla with some jalapeño sprinkled on top. In the pool, in the car, on the back deck, on the front porch, on the roof...I was good to go anywhere and at anytime. I thought he would get a kick out of that but he literally squirmed, like the topic was painful.
> 
> By the time I broke it off with him we hadn’t had sex in two weeks and I was super frustrated. We had been together almost three months by then and there was no way I was going to stay with someone who had such bedroom issues.
> 
> Maybe I gave it to much time, I don’t know. Sex is very important to me because I went without for so long but I think I was just really unsure how long getting in sync should take.


I’ve learned it really should not take more than twice, and also learned to just trust my instincts when they are telling me this isn’t great for me. I don’t mean that after only 2 times we will know all there is to know about each other, but after 2 times I will definitely have my instincts telling me one way or the other if this is good sex or not. If it’s good it can keep getting better. If it’s not, it’s doomed no matter how much time I give it.


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## arbitrator

Faithful Wife said:


> Based on a short post on another thread about having sex with a woman who is a starfish or sack of potatoes...
> 
> How have you handled first time bad sex? Do you instantly break up with them? If not, why didn’t you?
> 
> For me it has been a matter of degrees. If it was so bad that I just couldn’t face ever doing it again, the new relationship was ended immediately. If it was bad but I felt he could get better with my encouragement and direction, I might give it one more shot, but if still bad, it’s over.
> 
> This does not represent my choices when I first became sexually active. There was a time when the young guys I had sex with were just so clumsy and clueless that I had no idea how good men could really be at it. Once I learned, there was no going back to clumsy or clueless.
> 
> Men or women can answer.
> 
> Wanted to add that one of the clueless clumsy ones actually needed me to lay like a bag of potatoes for him to get off. Because apparently he was so used to only getting off by humping the bed with his eyes closed. He wasn’t young, either. It was gross. So I understand at least somewhat how gross it must be for a guy to encounter a woman like that.


*I will usually have some idea of what the sex will be like just from any precoital make-out sessions that I might have!

If the making-out is far from pleasing, then the way I see it, there's absolutely no sense in proceeding to third base or home plate!

I don't want to make love to a limp unimaginative dishrag!*


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## minimalME

This has consistently been my experience too. Bad kissing leads to bad sex.

Every single time. No exceptions.




arbitrator said:


> *I will usually have some idea of what the sex will be like just from any precoital make-out sessions that I might have!!*


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## Casual Observer

Not said:


> I did try to bring it up in conversation in a lighthearted manner asking him what he would label his sex style as. I told him I was a scoop of vanilla with some jalapeño sprinkled on top. In the pool, in the car, on the back deck, on the front porch, on the roof...I was good to go anywhere and at anytime. I thought he would get a kick out of that but he literally squirmed, like the topic was painful.


You mean like this?



 (Ugh, just noticed the embedded video might not pass TAM muster for the text)


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## Not

arbitrator said:


> *I will usually have some idea of what the sex will be like just from any precoital make-out sessions that I might have!
> 
> If the making-out is far from pleasing, then the way I see it, there's absolutely no sense in proceeding to third base or home plate!
> 
> I don't want to make love to a limp unimaginative dishrag!*


Oh see, that’s what threw me off about my guy. He was really good at make out sessions, really good. So much so that I couldn’t wait to have sex with him. Now I think that may be how he compensates.


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## LisaDiane

Faithful Wife said:


> It’s more like hurry up and finish so I can get away from you.


I DO NOT get this -- what a waste of being able to make our bodies FEEL the most amazing things!!!!


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## ConanHub

Not said:


> Oh see, that’s what threw me off about my guy. He was really good at make out sessions, really good. So much so that I couldn’t wait to have sex with him. Now I think that may be how he compensates.


I had one instance where the kissing stage was a total misdirection.

The belly dancer couldn't kiss her way out of a dime booth but really liked sex! Come to think of it I pretty much did everything to her and she just exploded so maybe she really wasn't that great after all.:|


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## Faithful Wife

Not said:


> arbitrator said:
> 
> 
> 
> *I will usually have some idea of what the sex will be like just from any precoital make-out sessions that I might have!
> 
> If the making-out is far from pleasing, then the way I see it, there's absolutely no sense in proceeding to third base or home plate!
> 
> I don't want to make love to a limp unimaginative dishrag!*
> 
> 
> 
> Oh see, that’s what threw me off about my guy. He was really good at make out sessions, really good. So much so that I couldn’t wait to have sex with him. Now I think that may be how he compensates.
Click to expand...

Yes it can get confusing if they can kiss and make out in fun ways but aren’t good beyond that. But I think that can be determined too with other things like discussing likes and preferences. So the red flag was if you talk to them and they clearly start being anxious about you just trying to communicate in adult ways, run! 

You sound fun to me and you did great by even trying to talk about it. 

I need to be able to talk about a sexual future with someone in order to be able to determine if I would want a future with them at all, and to determine if having sex with them will be likely to be good for me. You can weed a lot of them out this way. And to me it’s fun. I love sex and am happy to talk about it like adults to size each other up.


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## uhtred

It think there are several types of bad:
Lack of interest / passion: probably not fixable
Selfish: not fixable
Lack of knowledge: Probably fixable
Lack of compatibility: Probably shouldn't be fixed - find someone compatible.


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## LisaDiane

YIKES! This thread is making me happy I'm not out there having to judge and being judged based on sexual performance...this sounds intimidating!!!

I only have experiences with bad sex with my only 2 long-term partners, so I don't know if it counts...? Lol!!


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## ReformedHubby

Yeah...thats a tough one. I am awful at being honest if it hurts someones feelings. I would just think of some other reason to end it and tell them that. But....being honest, I can't say I have had anyone that was bad after my marriage ended. I tend to only end up with similarly minded HD people. I think I know what I am looking for in that department at this point in my life.

Sex might be the most important thing to me...and I'm not sure thats a good thing. I do wonder if my relationship starts going south if I would stay in it longer because I liked the sex. Looking back I do think its something that extended things in other relationships for a few months longer than it should have went, or if its bad it never gets going. So I think @ConanHub raised a valid point.


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## Gabriel

Faithful Wife said:


> Totally agree and if there is passion then you can usually work with it.
> 
> However, there are some lovers who will not learn anything no matter how much you want them to, no matter what you say, no matter how they may seem to try. I don’t know why this is true but it just is. I think some people cannot have sex other than robotically. A*t this point in my life, I can tell those ones by just kissing them.*


Interesting, your handle betrays your point in bold. Were you a faithful wife in the past and are now single?


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## Faithful Wife

Gabriel said:


> Interesting, your handle betrays your point in bold. Were you a faithful wife in the past and are now single?


Yes, sorry, I know it is confusing for people who don't know my story. I came here to TAM married and very in love and very faithful. I've since been divorced (4 years ago) and am now single and dating. Didn't know what to do with my user name after divorce since I'm not a wife anymore....decided to just leave it as is. Am open to suggestions for a new user name.


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## ReformedHubby

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, sorry, I know it is confusing for people who don't know my story. I came here to TAM married and very in love and very faithful. I've since been divorced (4 years ago) and am now single and dating. Didn't know what to do with my user name after divorce since I'm not a wife anymore....decided to just leave it as is. Am open to suggestions for a new user name.


Psshhhh...you have nothing to worry about. My handle on here is ReformedHubby...and my marriage failed because I was anything but that. But...its what people on here know me as so I kept it. Besides am I supposed to change my user name to CheatingHubby? I say keep your name the same. /End Jack


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## LisaDiane

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes, sorry, I know it is confusing for people who don't know my story. I came here to TAM married and very in love and very faithful. I've since been divorced (4 years ago) and am now single and dating. Didn't know what to do with my user name after divorce since I'm not a wife anymore....decided to just leave it as is. Am open to suggestions for a new user name.



(((((HUGS!!!))))) for you FW! I happen to love your name, and think you should keep it!!
It describes YOU! :smile2:


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## Marduk

Sorry to bust in on the lady's thread here, but I've been on both sides of this - the receiver of "bad" and the giver of "bad."

What I would say is that there's multiple dimensions of bad. Maybe something like:

1. you're nervous/anxious/don't know each other - leading to fairly inhibited sex, which is very much get-over-able with time. This wasn't me except if I really was into the person, and then it was for the first time or two. Game on.

2. you're just inhibited about sex and always will be - which is hard to distinguish from #1 (most people claim they aren't even if they are) but you should be able to call it after a few times. If you're inhibited, too, then great. If you're not, big problem. Or if you're not both inhibited in the same way, game over.

3. your lego just doesn't click - meaning your interests and appetites are too different, or your bodies don't fit together, pheromones ,chemistry, tastes, etc. You probably clue into this pretty quickly. Game over.

4. they're just not that into you, or you're just not that into them. For me, this happens right away once things get going. Also game over.

5. one of you is a lot more experienced than the other but they're eager to learn - this can be awesome, if you both want to take on the challenge. Game on!

6. one of you is a lot more experienced, but the other one doesn't want to expand their horizons or are judgy about it - game over.

Hope that helps.


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## southbound

What are some examples of bad sex? I had a thread once about people discussing good and bad lovers. I always thought it was how turned on to the person one was that makes a difference and seeing the “want to” in their eyes. Unless a person lies there like they are asleep or can’t find the genitals, why can’t one communicate what they need? 

I think we all know that everyone is different. It takes different positions, strokes, and actions to satisfy different people. One doesn’t automatically know a different person. Unless someone is acting like the three stooges, I think it could be communicated to meet needs. So, what are some examples of bad sex that can’t be corrected?


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## Lila

southbound said:


> What are some examples of bad sex? I had a thread once about people discussing good and bad lovers. I always thought it was how turned on to the person one was that makes a difference and seeing the “want to” in their eyes. Unless a person lies there like they are asleep or can’t find the genitals, why can’t one communicate what they need?
> 
> I think we all know that everyone is different. It takes different positions, strokes, and actions to satisfy different people. One doesn’t automatically know a different person. Unless someone is acting like the three stooges, I think it could be communicated to meet needs. So, what are some examples of bad sex that can’t be corrected?


For me bad sex is when my likes/dislikes are communicated but ignored by my partner. Thankfully that has rarely happened to me. 

I think what is more likely to happen is sexual incompatiblity - one person likes it one way and the other likes something different. Nothing "bad" about that....just not compatible. 

As far as communicating needs to make things "good", sometimes the differences between two people's likes/dislikes is much too large to gap. The effort and level of compromise required is too much to make it worthwhile.


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## southbound

Lila said:


> For me bad sex is when my likes/dislikes are communicated but ignored by my partner. Thankfully that has rarely happened to me.
> 
> I think what is more likely to happen is sexual incompatiblity - one person likes it one way and the other likes something different. Nothing "bad" about that....just not compatible.
> 
> As far as communicating needs to make things "good", sometimes the differences between two people's likes/dislikes is much too large to gap. The effort and level of compromise required is too much to make it worthwhile.


What you wrote makes sense. Perhaps that is it with everyone. Some people act as if with some it’s like asking a bank president to perform brain surgery, or that some people are just too ignorant to know how to have enjoyable sex.


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## Faithful Wife

southbound said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> For me bad sex is when my likes/dislikes are communicated but ignored by my partner. Thankfully that has rarely happened to me.
> 
> I think what is more likely to happen is sexual incompatiblity - one person likes it one way and the other likes something different. Nothing "bad" about that....just not compatible.
> 
> As far as communicating needs to make things "good", sometimes the differences between two people's likes/dislikes is much too large to gap. The effort and level of compromise required is too much to make it worthwhile.
> 
> 
> 
> What you wrote makes sense. Perhaps that is it with everyone. Some people act as if with some it’s like asking a bank president to perform brain surgery, or that some people are just too ignorant to know how to have enjoyable sex.
Click to expand...

It’s not that they are ignorant, but some people really do lack skills. My opening post was inspired by a guy talking about starfish sex women. I cannot wrap my mind around how or why a woman would be like this. But clearly she is lacking either knowledge or skill or passion or all of them. Or even if she just hates sex and is enduring it by just laying there motionless, there is something really off about doing that. Like why would she think it was ok to do that versus just admit she hates having sex and letting the guy know the truth. Also weird is a guy continuing to have sex with a woman like that versus just leaving.

But since no woman is going to admit to starfish sex here, we aren’t going to hear from anyone what is up with that, why she is like that, or if there’s anyway she can improve. We do hear from men who have encountered women like this so we hear their descriptions of what bad sex can be like from them.


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## anonmd

Faithful Wife said:


> It’s not that they are ignorant, but some people really do lack skills. My opening post was inspired by a guy talking about starfish sex women. I cannot wrap my mind around how or why a woman would be like this. But clearly she is lacking either knowledge or skill or passion or all of them. Or even if she just hates sex and is enduring it by just laying there motionless, there is something really off about doing that. Like why would she think it was ok to do that versus just admit she hates having sex and letting the guy know the truth. Also weird is a guy continuing to have sex with a woman like that versus just leaving.
> 
> But since no woman is going to admit to starfish sex here, we aren’t going to hear from anyone what is up with that, why she is like that, or if there’s anyway she can improve. We do hear from men who have encountered women like this so we hear their descriptions of what bad sex can be like from them.


Maybe I'm confused, wasn't the question related to first time / first few times in the relationship? 

You recognize there have been guys who are bad lovers from time to time. You can't wrap your mind around the occasional bad lover female? 

Can't comment personally on first time bad experiences, the limited # were all at least pretty good. I could comment on some deep into the relationship episodes but that is a different matter.


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## Faithful Wife

anonmd said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> It’s not that they are ignorant, but some people really do lack skills. My opening post was inspired by a guy talking about starfish sex women. I cannot wrap my mind around how or why a woman would be like this. But clearly she is lacking either knowledge or skill or passion or all of them. Or even if she just hates sex and is enduring it by just laying there motionless, there is something really off about doing that. Like why would she think it was ok to do that versus just admit she hates having sex and letting the guy know the truth. Also weird is a guy continuing to have sex with a woman like that versus just leaving.
> 
> But since no woman is going to admit to starfish sex here, we aren’t going to hear from anyone what is up with that, why she is like that, or if there’s anyway she can improve. We do hear from men who have encountered women like this so we hear their descriptions of what bad sex can be like from them.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm confused, wasn't the question related to first time / first few times in the relationship?
> 
> You recognize there have been guys who are bad lovers from time to time. You can't wrap your mind around the occasional bad lover female?
> 
> Can't comment personally on first time bad experiences, the limited # were all at least pretty good. I could comment on some deep into the relationship episodes but that is a different matter.
Click to expand...

I can’t really wrap my mind around either male or female bad lovers. I know they exist I just don’t know why people are that way. I just used the female bad lover in the post to southbound as an example because my creating this thread was based on a comment about starfish sex women originally.

And yes I was asking people how they handle being faced with bad sex. Do they never go back, or give it a shot a few more times hoping it will improve. We got some interesting answers.


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## oldtruck

there is nothing wrong with dumping someone for bad sex

however someone with limited skills, experience, to be dumped before
a 2nd attempt at teaching is not fair. after all you were attractive enough
to have sex with them the first time

they did not change as a person after the first time


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## Faithful Wife

oldtruck said:


> there is nothing wrong with dumping someone for bad sex
> 
> however someone with limited skills, experience, to be dumped before
> a 2nd attempt at teaching is not fair. after all you were attractive enough
> to have sex with them the first time
> 
> they did not change as a person after the first time


It depends on how and why they were "bad". If I was a guy and it was starfish sex the first time, I would never go back a second time. That is not something you can "teach" someone not to do. It indicates some kind of problem. And as a woman, there are just certain things a guy could do badly or wrong (for me, not speaking for anyone else) which would make me not go back after one bad round.

I described such a guy in an earlier post on this thread.

It doesn't really matter how attractive someone is to me or even that they are a great person. If the sex with each other is a dud for either of us, I'm out. I'm not going to teach anyone at my age.

This does not mean we won't learn each other so of course there IS teaching going to happen, just not the ground up kind of teaching. Or if there is a significantly different vibe or style, there's not really any teaching that can change that.


----------



## MJJEAN

I'm willing to give awkward but good first time together sex another chance, but bad sex? Nope.

DH, on the other hand, reported having bad sex with the same person more than once because he was the "bad sex is better than no sex" type.


----------



## Faithful Wife

MJJEAN said:


> DH, on the other hand, reported having bad sex with the same person more than once because he was the "bad sex is better than no sex" type.


Must be the O gap. For a man bad sex will still likely produce an O, for women not true usually.


----------



## Holdingontoit

Faithful Wife said:


> I can’t really wrap my mind around either male or female bad lovers. I know they exist I just don’t know why people are that way. I just used the female bad lover in the post to southbound as an example because my creating this thread was based on a comment about starfish sex women originally.


Why are people bad lovers? In many cases it is fear of change. Or fear of being honest about who they are, what they like, how much or little experience they have had, etc.

I am a terrible lover only in part because of my suffering from ED and PE throughout my life. Even more of a problem is my inability to admit that to myself and my partner, and my inability to allow myself to be vulnerable enough to ask for a partner's help in dealing with it.

When you ask "why does someone continue behaving in sub-optimal ways?", fear or disgust is usually the answer.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Faithful Wife said:


> It’s not that they are ignorant, but some people really do lack skills. My opening post was inspired by a guy talking about starfish sex women. I cannot wrap my mind around how or why a woman would be like this. But clearly she is lacking either knowledge or skill or passion or all of them. Or even if she just hates sex and is enduring it by just laying there motionless, there is something really off about doing that. Like why would she think it was ok to do that versus just admit she hates having sex and letting the guy know the truth. Also weird is a guy continuing to have sex with a woman like that versus just leaving.
> 
> *But since no woman is going to admit to starfish sex here*, we aren’t going to hear from anyone what is up with that, why she is like that, or if there’s anyway she can improve. We do hear from men who have encountered women like this so we hear their descriptions of what bad sex can be like from them.


Hey, I'll throw it out there.

From women, any one just provide starfish sex to hubby time to time, or have at least once, or ahem, do all the time?

Conversely, from men, any one think their wife is providing starfish sex, or call it bare minimum sex just because they can, routinely, a one off, or as a standard, just to eliminate a fuss?


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Holdingontoit said:


> *Why are people bad lovers? In many cases it is fear of change. Or fear of being honest about who they are, what they like, how much or little experience they have had*, etc.
> 
> I am a terrible lover only in part because of my suffering from ED and PE throughout my life. Even more of a problem is my inability to admit that to myself and my partner, and my inability to allow myself to be vulnerable enough to ask for a partner's help in dealing with it.
> 
> When you ask "why does someone continue behaving in sub-optimal ways?", fear or disgust is usually the answer.


What about after say 20 or so years in an ltr. Barring medical issues, imho laziness and the fact they can get away with it comes into play at some point. *Because at that point they've had plenty of experience*. Either spouse.

That's an invitation to disaster at some point. 

When someone has had to eat mud pies for so long, and have been told "that's normal" , when a banana split comes within reach for whatever reason, accidental or not, it becomes very easy to reach over and have a bite.

Folks may not realize this until it's too late.

Just sayin'.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Holdingontoit said:
> 
> 
> 
> *Why are people bad lovers? In many cases it is fear of change. Or fear of being honest about who they are, what they like, how much or little experience they have had*, etc.
> 
> I am a terrible lover only in part because of my suffering from ED and PE throughout my life. Even more of a problem is my inability to admit that to myself and my partner, and my inability to allow myself to be vulnerable enough to ask for a partner's help in dealing with it.
> 
> When you ask "why does someone continue behaving in sub-optimal ways?", fear or disgust is usually the answer.
> 
> 
> 
> What about after say 20 or so years in an ltr. Barring medical issues, imho laziness and the fact they can get away with it comes into play at some point. *Because at that point they've had plenty of experience*. Either spouse.
> 
> That's an invitation to disaster at some point.
> 
> When someone has had to eat mud pies for so long, and have been told "that's normal" , when a banana split comes within reach for whatever reason, accidental or not, it becomes very easy to reach over and have a bite.
> 
> Folks may not realize this until it's too late.
> 
> Just sayin'.
Click to expand...

But if someone has been a lazy or unskilled lover for 20 years, then that doesn’t build up the kind of experience that would make them get better at it. It would just keep them forever in the same lazy or unskilled rut.


----------



## oldtruck

MJJEAN said:


> I'm willing to give awkward but good first time together sex another chance, but bad sex? Nope.
> 
> DH, on the other hand, reported having bad sex with the same person more than once because he was the "bad sex is better than no sex" type.


just shows that it easier for a woman to find another partner than it is for a man


----------



## Girl_power

I haven’t dealt with bad lovers per say but I have dealt with the occasional bad sex... let’s be honest it happens to the best of us, especially those that never refuse and perform when they aren’t at their best. 
Bad sex (from good lovers) for me includes inability to get or stay hard. Needing frequent “help” aka oral sex to get them hard. I also like a slow natural build up... especially with oral. I’ve been with a guy that was like 0-100, like relax there is nothing sexy about that to me. Passionless sex...no noise, no change in positions, no kisses, no connection.


----------



## Girl_power

oldtruck said:


> just shows that it easier for a woman to find another partner than it is for a man




I disagree with this. There is more that can go wrong with men that ruins sex for the both of you.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Faithful Wife said:


> But if someone has been a lazy or unskilled lover for 20 years, then that doesn’t build up the kind of experience that would make them get better at it. It would just keep them forever in the same lazy or unskilled rut.


You get me. That's my point 😘😘😘. 

And if the "receiver" just goes with it, after a while; problems, problems, problems. 

Trouble will manifest somewhere, not necessarily in the bedroom but there will be an underlying current that leads back to the marriage bed whether either party chooses to explore or ignore.

Tragically it seems many put that "on ignore" then wonder why the wonderful closeness that can be had between a couple eludes them.


----------



## AandM

Faithful Wife said:


> Based on a short post on another thread about having sex with a woman who is a starfish or sack of potatoes...
> 
> How have you handled first time bad sex? Do you instantly break up with them? If not, why didn’t you?
> 
> For me it has been a matter of degrees. If it was so bad that I just couldn’t face ever doing it again, the new relationship was ended immediately. If it was bad but I felt he could get better with my encouragement and direction, I might give it one more shot, but if still bad, it’s over.
> 
> This does not represent my choices when I first became sexually active. There was a time when the young guys I had sex with were just so clumsy and clueless that I had no idea how good men could really be at it. Once I learned, there was no going back to clumsy or clueless.
> 
> Men or women can answer.
> 
> Wanted to add that one of the clueless clumsy ones actually needed me to lay like a bag of potatoes for him to get off. Because apparently he was so used to only getting off by humping the bed with his eyes closed. He wasn’t young, either. It was gross. So I understand at least somewhat how gross it must be for a guy to encounter a woman like that.


Faithful Wife be like


----------



## Faithful Wife

AandM said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Based on a short post on another thread about having sex with a woman who is a starfish or sack of potatoes...
> 
> How have you handled first time bad sex? Do you instantly break up with them? If not, why didn’t you?
> 
> For me it has been a matter of degrees. If it was so bad that I just couldn’t face ever doing it again, the new relationship was ended immediately. If it was bad but I felt he could get better with my encouragement and direction, I might give it one more shot, but if still bad, it’s over.
> 
> This does not represent my choices when I first became sexually active. There was a time when the young guys I had sex with were just so clumsy and clueless that I had no idea how good men could really be at it. Once I learned, there was no going back to clumsy or clueless.
> 
> Men or women can answer.
> 
> Wanted to add that one of the clueless clumsy ones actually needed me to lay like a bag of potatoes for him to get off. Because apparently he was so used to only getting off by humping the bed with his eyes closed. He wasn’t young, either. It was gross. So I understand at least somewhat how gross it must be for a guy to encounter a woman like that.
> 
> 
> 
> Faithful Wife be like
Click to expand...

While that is totally hilarious...no, doesn’t reflect my energy. I’m more likely to calmly leave the scene, then never look back and ghost them. I’m too old and tired to rip the curtains down.

Now mess with someone in my family or directly threaten me in some way and yeah you’ll see curtains being ripped down. lol


----------



## AandM

Faithful Wife said:


> While that is totally hilarious...no, doesn’t reflect my energy. I’m more likely to calmly leave the scene, then never look back and ghost them. I’m too old and tired to rip the curtains down.
> 
> Now mess with someone in my family or directly threaten me in some way and yeah you’ll see curtains being ripped down. lol


Yeah, but I've been looking for a chance to use that gif.
The truth is all cool and all, but that **** is hilarious.
#sorrynotsorry.


----------



## Faithful Wife

AandM said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> While that is totally hilarious...no, doesn’t reflect my energy. I’m more likely to calmly leave the scene, then never look back and ghost them. I’m too old and tired to rip the curtains down.
> 
> Now mess with someone in my family or directly threaten me in some way and yeah you’ll see curtains being ripped down. lol
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, but I've been looking for a chance to use that gif.
> The truth is all cool and all, but that **** is hilarious.
> #sorrynotsorry.
Click to expand...

I’m honored I am worthy of you finally getting to use the gif.


----------



## AandM

Faithful Wife said:


> I’m honored I am worthy of you finally getting to use the gif.


Well, use it or lose it; that's how digital storage works, right?


----------



## MJJEAN

Faithful Wife said:


> Must be the O gap. For a man bad sex will still likely produce an O, for women not true usually.


Actually, it's just me being a picky wench. I have orgasms from manual, oral, and PIV alone. So, I can pretty much just go cowgirl and get my O or few. I need more than an orgasm to consider the sex not bad.



Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Hey, I'll throw it out there.
> 
> From women, any one just provide starfish sex to hubby time to time, or have at least once, or ahem, do all the time?
> 
> Conversely, from men, any one think their wife is providing starfish sex, or call it bare minimum sex just because they can, routinely, a one off, or as a standard, just to eliminate a fuss?


During my first marriage I admit I starfished here and there. Starfish being defined as the bare minimum. There would be some hip movement and some faux moans because the physical and audible stimulation would bring an end to the exercise sooner than just laying there.



oldtruck said:


> just shows that it easier for a woman to find another partner than it is for a man


Depends on the woman and the man. I know men who are very proficient at getting laid. I know women who are not.


----------



## wild jade

Faithful Wife said:


> It’s not that they are ignorant, but some people really do lack skills. My opening post was inspired by a guy talking about starfish sex women. I cannot wrap my mind around how or why a woman would be like this. But clearly she is lacking either knowledge or skill or passion or all of them. Or even if she just hates sex and is enduring it by just laying there motionless, there is something really off about doing that. Like why would she think it was ok to do that versus just admit she hates having sex and letting the guy know the truth. Also weird is a guy continuing to have sex with a woman like that versus just leaving.
> 
> But since no woman is going to admit to starfish sex here, we aren’t going to hear from anyone what is up with that, why she is like that, or if there’s anyway she can improve. We do hear from men who have encountered women like this so we hear their descriptions of what bad sex can be like from them.


Sometimes it's nice to just lie back, let the other person do the work and enjoy the sensations. My husband likes it too.

That's what I think of when I think starfish ...


----------



## JustTheWife

wild jade said:


> Sometimes it's nice to just lie back, let the other person do the work and enjoy the sensations. My husband likes it too.
> 
> That's what I think of when I think starfish ...


Oh no, maybe i was a starfish too.

I just always let the guy do the work. If he put me in different positions or had me do "whatever", then i just went with it. Otherwise, i wasn't overly active. But most of these guys were not shy to take charge of me!


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

wild jade said:


> Sometimes it's nice to just lie back, let the other person do the work and enjoy the sensations. My husband likes it too.
> 
> That's what I think of when I think starfish ...


And there's nothing wrong with that here and there! All good. 👍👍😘😘😘

Some may disagree but it's true the man does 90% of the work 80% of the time, and we like it just fine because, well, that's just the way we are.

Love it!


----------



## Faithful Wife

I don’t think just laying back and enjoying is what men complain about when they talk about starfish sex. Because enjoying it at all is apparently not what the typical starfish sex is about. So there is maybe another word for what wild jade described, like just taking a passive role. There is also something called rag doll sex, that’s more what just the wife described. Both of these are good for the woman (in the given examples) and she’s not trying to avoid sex with these movements. 

Mmjean describes starfish sex closer I think, where she genuinely just wanted him to hurry up and get off of her.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Faithful Wife said:


> I don’t think just laying back and enjoying is what men complain about when they talk about starfish sex. Because enjoying it at all is apparently not what the typical starfish sex is about. So there is maybe another word for what wild jade described, like just taking a passive role. There is also something called rag doll sex, that’s more what just the wife described. Both of these are good for the woman (in the given examples) and she’s not trying to avoid sex with these movements.
> 
> Mmjean describes starfish sex closer I think, where she genuinely just wanted him to hurry up and get off of her.


Yeah, anytime a women is genuinely just wanting the guy to hurry up and get off her, is worse than no sex. And the guy knows if he has half a brain.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t think just laying back and enjoying is what men complain about when they talk about starfish sex. Because enjoying it at all is apparently not what the typical starfish sex is about. So there is maybe another word for what wild jade described, like just taking a passive role. There is also something called rag doll sex, that’s more what just the wife described. Both of these are good for the woman (in the given examples) and she’s not trying to avoid sex with these movements.
> 
> Mmjean describes starfish sex closer I think, where she genuinely just wanted him to hurry up and get off of her.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, anytime a women is genuinely just wanting the guy to hurry up and get off her, is worse than no sex. And the guy knows if he has half a brain.
Click to expand...

This is what most men around here call starfish sex, and yes they certainly know the difference. But some still stick around for it anyway.


----------



## Faithful Wife

MJJEAN said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> Must be the O gap. For a man bad sex will still likely produce an O, for women not true usually.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, it's just me being a picky wench. I have orgasms from manual, oral, and PIV alone. So, I can pretty much just go cowgirl and get my O or few. I need more than an orgasm to consider the sex not bad.
Click to expand...

I don’t think it’s being picky for a man or a woman to expect sex to be good. 

It’s awesome you can get yourself off. That’s pretty similar to men. The hole is there and the slot fits in and he has an O.

But generally speaking this is almost 100% true for men and maybe only 25% true for women (meaning 25% of women will be able to get off even if the sex is bad, not all women getting off 25% of the time). So most of us not only get bad sex, we also don’t get to have an O. Whereas basically 100% of men will be able to O. That’s what the orgasm gap is. You being in the 25% is awesome.

I also get it that having an O is not the minimum requirement for good sex. 

But there do seem to be more men willing to accept bad sex because they do get to O. For me, since I won’t O from sex anyway, there is actually a lot of stuff that needs to happen for me to consider it good sex. It’s never about the O for me, it’s always about passion and intimacy, good hands and a good ****, and what it actually feels like inside of me. 

Dammit, now I’m missing sex. Sigh.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Faithful Wife said:


> This is what most men around here call starfish sex, and yes they certainly know the difference. But some still stick around for it anyway.


And those men should be shot! Better to do without and look around. 

Opportunities abound for finding passionate women. Just one man's view, but proven tried and true.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Faithful Wife said:


> I don’t think it’s being picky for a man or a woman to expect sex to be good.
> 
> It’s awesome you can get yourself off. That’s pretty similar to men. The hole is there and the slot fits in and he has an O.
> 
> But generally speaking this is almost 100% true for men and maybe only 25% true for women (meaning 25% of women will be able to get off even if the sex is bad, not all women getting off 25% of the time). So most of us not only get bad sex, we also don’t get to have an O. Whereas basically 100% of men will be able to O. That’s what the orgasm gap is. You being in the 25% is awesome.
> 
> I also get it that having an O is not the minimum requirement for good sex.
> 
> But there do seem to be more men willing to accept bad sex because they do get to O. For me, since I won’t O from sex anyway, there is actually a lot of stuff that needs to happen for me to consider it good sex. It’s never about the O for me, it’s always about passion and intimacy, good hands and a good ****, and what it actually feels like inside of me.
> 
> Dammit, now I’m missing sex. Sigh.


And to me it's about the passion and intimacy too, all mixed into an encounter that's never rushed unless it's a mutual quickie.

Durn, I'm missing sex now, too.

I'll let this slip; DW and I are in a slight disagreement that is of the rare kind that's preventing "encounters". Nothing serious but whereas I do many things I should and do apologize for, this isn't one of those, and I picked this hill to die on so to speak.

Maybe not the smartest thing, but I'm dug in and really think I'll hang with it. One of the few times it wasn't me. 

Now, we'll see what happens.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t think it’s being picky for a man or a woman to expect sex to be good.
> 
> It’s awesome you can get yourself off. That’s pretty similar to men. The hole is there and the slot fits in and he has an O.
> 
> But generally speaking this is almost 100% true for men and maybe only 25% true for women (meaning 25% of women will be able to get off even if the sex is bad, not all women getting off 25% of the time). So most of us not only get bad sex, we also don’t get to have an O. Whereas basically 100% of men will be able to O. That’s what the orgasm gap is. You being in the 25% is awesome.
> 
> I also get it that having an O is not the minimum requirement for good sex.
> 
> But there do seem to be more men willing to accept bad sex because they do get to O. For me, since I won’t O from sex anyway, there is actually a lot of stuff that needs to happen for me to consider it good sex. It’s never about the O for me, it’s always about passion and intimacy, good hands and a good ****, and what it actually feels like inside of me.
> 
> Dammit, now I’m missing sex. Sigh.
> 
> 
> 
> And to me it's about the passion and intimacy too, all mixed into an encounter that's never rushed unless it's a mutual quickie.
> 
> Durn, I'm missing sex now, too.
> 
> I'll let this slip; DW and I are in a slight disagreement that is of the rare kind that's preventing "encounters". Nothing serious but whereas I do many things I should and do apologize for, this isn't one of those, and I picked this hill to die on so to speak.
> 
> Maybe not the smartest thing, but I'm dug in and really think I'll hang with it. One of the few times it wasn't me.
> 
> Now, we'll see what happens.
Click to expand...

No sympathy for you!! At least when the ice melts you know you’ll be having sex again.

Us single persons (well at least those of us who don’t have sex outside of exclusivity) may not know where our next meal is coming from for months at a time! Lol 

Go say sorry to your woman and get it on like a teenager. Do it for me, at least then I can be part of someone somewhere having sex.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Faithful Wife said:


> No sympathy for you!! At least when the ice melts you know you’ll be having sex again.
> 
> Us single persons (well at least those of us who don’t have sex outside of exclusivity) may not know where our next meal is coming from for months at a time! Lol
> 
> Go say sorry to your woman and get it on like a teenager. Do it for me, at least then I can be part of someone somewhere having sex.


Truthfully I know that's what I should do...and almost did. I said I was sorry, but two seconds later the next thing out of my mouth was but you know I don't mean it, before I could help myself.

So, here we are. I'm sure I can be a bonehead sometimes. This may be a prime example, but then again this time it might not be me.

I'm sure I'll regret it later. My brain says just suck it up.
But for now we'll have to see how it plays out.

(PS sorry for the thread jack. All done.)


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> This is what most men around here call starfish sex, and yes they certainly know the difference. But some still stick around for it anyway.


This happened quite a bit in my first marriage before it became totally sexless.

When you're dying for any kind of physical connection and sex, while being told constantly that your needs and desires are unreasonable or even disgusting, you'll take what you can get and try to adapt.

I actually thought for a time that it was normal and even healthy to have either bad sex or no sex - because if you loved someone, you wouldn't ever ask or desire for anything, only try to make the other person happy. Even if what made them happy was your absence, or distant presence.

This kind of stuff can be a serious mind-**** especially when manipulation, emotions, and ideas like duty are played with. I had a lot of sex - and a lot of great sex with other women and with my ex wife before we got married. Then poof!

There's an element of getting what you tolerate, to be sure, but there's often other components also involved. Including out and out manipulation and normalization of unhealthy behaviour that sneaks up on you slowly until one day you're living a life that you cannot understand, while somehow it seems normal. Or being told that "if you love me, you'll tolerate this and be happy with it," or "marriage and duty means taking what I give you, no matter if that makes you happy or not."


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is what most men around here call starfish sex, and yes they certainly know the difference. But some still stick around for it anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> This happened quite a bit in my first marriage before it became totally sexless.
> 
> When you're dying for any kind of physical connection and sex, while being told constantly that your needs and desires are unreasonable or even disgusting, you'll take what you can get and try to adapt.
> 
> I actually thought for a time that it was normal and even healthy to have either bad sex or no sex - because if you loved someone, you wouldn't ever ask or desire for anything, only try to make the other person happy. Even if what made them happy was your absence, or distant presence.
> 
> This kind of stuff can be a serious mind-**** especially when manipulation, emotions, and ideas like duty are played with. I had a lot of sex - and a lot of great sex with other women and with my ex wife before we got married. Then poof!
> 
> There's an element of getting what you tolerate, to be sure, but there's often other components also involved. Including out and out manipulation and normalization of unhealthy behaviour that sneaks up on you slowly until one day you're living a life that you cannot understand, while somehow it seems normal. Or being told that "if you love me, you'll tolerate this and be happy with it," or "marriage and duty means taking what I give you, no matter if that makes you happy or not."
Click to expand...

If that sex with your ex wife did not result in an orgasm for you, would you still have kept having sex with her?


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

Marduk said:


> This happened quite a bit in my first marriage before it became totally sexless.
> 
> When you're dying for any kind of physical connection and sex, while being told constantly that your needs and desires are unreasonable or even disgusting, you'll take what you can get and try to adapt.
> 
> I actually thought for a time that it was normal and even healthy to have either bad sex or no sex - because if you loved someone, you wouldn't ever ask or desire for anything, only try to make the other person happy. Even if what made them happy was your absence, or distant presence.
> 
> This kind of stuff can be a serious mind-**** especially when manipulation, emotions, and ideas like duty are played with. I had a lot of sex - and a lot of great sex with other women and with my ex wife before we got married. Then poof!
> 
> There's an element of getting what you tolerate, to be sure, but there's often other components also involved. *Including out and out manipulation* and normalization of unhealthy behaviour that sneaks up on you slowly until one day you're living a life that you cannot understand, while somehow it seems normal. Or being told that "if you love me, you'll tolerate this and be happy with it," or "marriage and duty means taking what I give you, no matter if that makes you happy or not."


Ain't it the truth.

It took me about six months early on in M before I realized hey some of this is by design.

Now granted, manipulations without malevolence or selfish intent goes on in every relationship to a small degree.

But it's those SOs that continuously do it with malice, selfishness, and intent to deceive that have to, absolutely have to get called on it as BS, immediately. 

Cause if nothing changes, nothing changes.


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> If that sex with your ex wife did not result in an orgasm for you, would you still have kept having sex with her?


Often, it didn't.

But when you go a month or more and never make physical contact with another human being and that's "normal," you take what you can get.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> Often, it didn't.
> 
> But when you go a month or more and never make physical contact with another human being and that's "normal," you take what you can get.


Sad. I dated a guy who came out of a marriage like that. And like yours, she ended up cheating on him at the end, that's why they split. She also was crazy (not sure what type of crazy, but definitely something in the DSM). I hated her for what she did to him. I made sure he got lots and lots of great lovins' when we were together (though that was for me, too, but it meant something totally different for him).


----------



## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> Sad. I dated a guy who came out of a marriage like that. And like yours, she ended up cheating on him at the end, that's why they split. She also was crazy (not sure what type of crazy, but definitely something in the DSM). I hated her for what she did to him. I made sure he got lots and lots of great lovins' when we were together (though that was for me, too, but it meant something totally different for him).


My therapists told me that while they couldn't diagnose my ex, the symptoms I described at length fit either the early onset of schizophrenia, specifically: 



> There is often an observable pattern of emotional difficulty, for example lack of responsiveness.[23] Impairment in social cognition is associated with schizophrenia,[24] as are symptoms of paranoia. Social isolation commonly occurs.[25] Difficulties in working and long-term memory, attention, executive functioning, and speed of processing also commonly occur.


For example, she was extremely cold to everyone by the time we split, didn't understand why her friends and family would ask her why she left the marriage suddenly without explanation. She actually acted like we had never been married or had even really known each other to the point that she seemed (in the words of some of her friends and family) delusional. She would often 'glaze' over when asked questions about being married to me, why she was leaving, or what she was doing... not speak for several minutes at a time, and then carry on like the question hadn't been asked. Or just stand up and leave - something she did to our closest friends when over for dinner after we separated. She also dropped several close friends, and apparently carried on like a totally different person afterward, with a different personality. However, she's quite intelligent, and has held down a great job, and dated a great many guys, but never married again or had kids to my knowledge.

If it wasn't that, my therapists indicated it might be some form of BPD - things like her arrogance, manipulation, and ability to lie/distort/hurt people (mostly me but also her friends and family) as long as it gained her perceived status somehow was indicative of this. And the confusion why I wouldn't pay her mortgage payment, bills, clothing, and even her 'entertainment' budget (i.e. dating other guys) while we were in the process of divorce confused her. As did not paying for her lawyer after our divorce was final. As I said, she also had convinced me that I was mentally unwell, and actually had told both her family and some of our shared friends that I had spent time in the hospital for mental illness, and was likely going to be committed. Which of course never happened.

At any rate, on a personal note, I was actually shocked that women wanted to date me after we split. Like, totally shocked. As I said, I was fairly successful at dating and sex before I met her - however she had told me repeatedly that I was disgusting, unattractive, lazy, stupid, no good at sex, etc for so long by that point I believed it.

After I had sex with someone else for the first time after we split, I walked her to the door, was shocked she emphasized how much she enjoyed it, and was flabbergasted that she wanted to see me _again._ After I closed the door, I started sobbing, and just kind of collapsed crying there on the floor for a while. I was so relieved, so grateful, and in many ways started to be hopeful for my future - that I wasn't so damaged and useless and disgusting that someone might actually want me.


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## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> At any rate, on a personal note, I was actually shocked that women wanted to date me after we split. Like, totally shocked. As I said, I was fairly successful at dating and sex before I met her - however she had told me repeatedly that I was disgusting, unattractive, lazy, stupid, no good at sex, etc for so long by that point I believed it.
> 
> After I had sex with someone else for the first time after we split, I walked her to the door, was shocked she emphasized how much she enjoyed it, and was flabbergasted that she wanted to see me _again._ After I closed the door, I started sobbing, and just kind of collapsed crying there on the floor for a while. I was so relieved, so grateful, and in many ways started to be hopeful for my future - that I wasn't so damaged and useless and disgusting that someone might actually want me.



:frown2:


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## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> :frown2:


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## Faithful Wife

@Marduk Thankfully by the time I dated the guy I mentioned it had been 6 years since his divorce and he had regained his self esteem and felt worthy again, had dated lots of women, etc. But I still poured all the sugar I could on him, because I hated that *****. He was such a good guy. He was still greatly affected by my efforts. Like he would tell me some crappy thing she had said to him to tear him down, dumb things like that his feet are ugly. WTF? So I would tell him I loved his feet, which I honestly did. I'm fascinated with huge man feet and he wore a size 13! He said he had become accustomed to just assuming his feet were really ugly all those years and never really thought much about it until I began telling him how cool it was and how manly it was and how it made me feel like a dainty princess next to a giant.


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## Marduk

Faithful Wife said:


> @Marduk Thankfully by the time I dated the guy I mentioned it had been 6 years since his divorce and he had regained his self esteem and felt worthy again, had dated lots of women, etc. But I still poured all the sugar I could on him, because I hated that *****. He was such a good guy. He was still greatly affected by my efforts. Like he would tell me some crappy thing she had said to him to tear him down, dumb things like that his feet are ugly. WTF? So I would tell him I loved his feet, which I honestly did. I'm fascinated with huge man feet and he wore a size 13! He said he had become accustomed to just assuming his feet were really ugly all those years and never really thought much about it until I began telling him how cool it was and how manly it was and how it made me feel like a dainty princess next to a giant.


Well... that's awesome. Campsite rule in full effect. You're a force for good in this world!

My point in that diatribe wasn't to make anyone feel bad for me... it was just to say that sometimes waking up one day to find you're in a crappy relationship or putting up with bad sex (like starfishing) but somehow you're tolerating it... is sometimes for reasons that are very complex. Even though the answer is often straightforward: buh-bye.

Unless you both actually want to fix it, and it's fixable, of course.


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## Faithful Wife

Marduk said:


> My point in that diatribe *wasn't to make anyone feel bad for me*... it was just to say that sometimes waking up one day to find you're in a crappy relationship or putting up with bad sex (like starfishing) but somehow you're tolerating it... is sometimes for reasons that are very complex. Even though the answer is often straightforward: buh-bye.


I get the bolded part, and my guy did not tell me any of those things to make me feel bad or take his side. He was just explaining his life and I would ask questions. I know he did not expect any sympathy or to be treated any certain way. That just made me want to be even nicer to him, because he went through the rebuilding of his self esteem on his own already and wasn't using me to build himself up. I do remember once that after he was telling me some really hard things he stopped and said "oh no, I should shut up now, I can see that look on your face". I was like, what look? He said I looked like I was disgusted, and maybe I thought he was weak or would lose attraction to him. I said "oh hell no, I'm disgusted with HER, and it doesn't make me lose attraction to you it makes me feel protective of you and I hate that *****!" 

His face lit up, and he said "wow, that makes me feel so good!" I said "she's just lucky she won't come near me because I'd burn through her face with my eyes". I think that made him swoon. :laugh:


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## oldtruck

Girl_power said:


> I disagree with this. There is more that can go wrong with men that ruins sex for the both of you.


easier for women to get a man to have sex then it is for men to get a women to have sex
has nothing to do with the quality of the sex.

with women being able to easily get men for sex they will be more likely to dump a man for bad sex.
where as it is harder for men to get women for sex they will delay dumping the women.

you quoted me, which is ok, but your statement made no sense to the quote, not even
apples to oranges, actually not even an apple to a rock.


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## Girl_power

oldtruck said:


> easier for women to get a man to have sex then it is for men to get a women to have sex
> has nothing to do with the quality of the sex.
> 
> with women being able to easily get men for sex they will be more likely to dump a man for bad sex.
> where as it is harder for men to get women for sex they will delay dumping the women.
> 
> you quoted me, which is ok, but your statement made no sense to the quote, not even
> apples to oranges, actually not even an apple to a rock.




Hahaha your right. I had to reread it again. I don’t know how I misread that.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Faithful Wife said:


> No sympathy for you!! At least when the ice melts you know you’ll be having sex again.
> 
> Us single persons (well at least those of us who don’t have sex outside of exclusivity) may not know where our next meal is coming from for months at a time! Lol
> 
> Go say sorry to your woman and get it on like a teenager. Do it for me, at least then I can be part of someone somewhere having sex.


 @Faithful Wife 

Well, I did, we did. Twice last night and once this morning before work.

'Nuff said ❤❤🙂🙂


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## 3Xnocharm

minimalME said:


> This has consistently been my experience too. Bad kissing leads to bad sex.
> 
> Every single time. No exceptions.


YES! Bad kissing is an immediate ending point for me!

I havent read the whole thread with, but had to stop and quote this one, because this is me LOL


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## Holdingontoit

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> What about after say 20 or so years in an ltr. Barring medical issues, imho laziness and the fact they can get away with it comes into play at some point. *Because at that point they've had plenty of experience*. Either spouse.


Maybe. Maybe not. I have been married over 27 years and I doubt anyone would say I've had plenty of experience.



Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> When someone has had to eat mud pies for so long, and have been told "that's normal" , when a banana split comes within reach for whatever reason, accidental or not, it becomes very easy to reach over and have a bite.


As I have said many times, the benefit of being an ugly self-loathing wimp is that the banana splits never come within reach. I don't need any willpower to resist temptation because the banana splits do all the resisting for me. :surprise::wink2:


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## Holdingontoit

Faithful Wife said:


> This is what most men around here call starfish sex, and yes they certainly know the difference. But some still stick around for it anyway.


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## Holdingontoit

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> And those men should be shot! Better to do without and look around.


You aren't thinking this through. We men who accept starfish sex do an important service to other men. We take "permanently" starfish women off the market so the men who are good lovers don't have to wade through them to get to the women who enjoy sex and know how to show it.

Now, it is a shame if a man takes a woman "off the market" who would be an enthusiastic partner with another man. But that is rarely the case. Either because the woman ends the relationship with the lousy lover or because she cheats on him. SO she isn't really "off the market".

Remember, if a woman is willing to accept that her entire sex life will be providing starfish sex to her lousy lover, she isn't all that into sex in the first place.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Holdingontoit said:


> Ragnar Ragnasson said:
> 
> 
> 
> And those men should be shot! Better to do without and look around.
> 
> 
> 
> You aren't thinking this through. We men who accept starfish sex do an important service to other men. We take "permanently" starfish women off the market so the men who are good lovers don't have to wade through them to get to the women who enjoy sex and know how to show it.
> 
> Now, it is a shame if a man takes a woman "off the market" who would be an enthusiastic partner with another man. But that is rarely the case. Either because the woman ends the relationship with the lousy lover or because she cheats on him. SO she isn't really "off the market".
> 
> Remember, if a woman is willing to accept that her entire sex life will be providing starfish sex to her lousy lover, she isn't all that into sex in the first place.
Click to expand...

Of course, one man's starfish is another man's bronco.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Of course, one man's starfish is another man's bronco.


I laughed out loud when I read this !!

Well done!


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## JustTheWife

Marduk said:


> My therapists told me that while they couldn't diagnose my ex, the symptoms I described at length fit either the early onset of schizophrenia, specifically:
> 
> 
> 
> For example, she was extremely cold to everyone by the time we split, didn't understand why her friends and family would ask her why she left the marriage suddenly without explanation. She actually acted like we had never been married or had even really known each other to the point that she seemed (in the words of some of her friends and family) delusional. She would often 'glaze' over when asked questions about being married to me, why she was leaving, or what she was doing... not speak for several minutes at a time, and then carry on like the question hadn't been asked. Or just stand up and leave - something she did to our closest friends when over for dinner after we separated. She also dropped several close friends, and apparently carried on like a totally different person afterward, with a different personality. However, she's quite intelligent, and has held down a great job, and dated a great many guys, but never married again or had kids to my knowledge.
> 
> If it wasn't that, my therapists indicated it might be some form of BPD - things like her arrogance, manipulation, and ability to lie/distort/hurt people (mostly me but also her friends and family) as long as it gained her perceived status somehow was indicative of this. And the confusion why I wouldn't pay her mortgage payment, bills, clothing, and even her 'entertainment' budget (i.e. dating other guys) while we were in the process of divorce confused her. As did not paying for her lawyer after our divorce was final. As I said, she also had convinced me that I was mentally unwell, and actually had told both her family and some of our shared friends that I had spent time in the hospital for mental illness, and was likely going to be committed. Which of course never happened.
> 
> At any rate, on a personal note, I was actually shocked that women wanted to date me after we split. Like, totally shocked. As I said, I was fairly successful at dating and sex before I met her - however she had told me repeatedly that I was disgusting, unattractive, lazy, stupid, no good at sex, etc for so long by that point I believed it.
> 
> After I had sex with someone else for the first time after we split, I walked her to the door, was shocked she emphasized how much she enjoyed it, and was flabbergasted that she wanted to see me _again._ After I closed the door, I started sobbing, and just kind of collapsed crying there on the floor for a while. I was so relieved, so grateful, and in many ways started to be hopeful for my future - that I wasn't so damaged and useless and disgusting that someone might actually want me.


Thanks for sharing this. Sex can be so powerful in many different ways. For me it's always had a great power - not always positive but never without a big impact on me, whether positive or negative (sometimes a powerful mix of the two).


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## JustTheWife

Regarding "starfish", earlier a comment was made about "starfish" vs "ragdoll". I think my style has always been "ragdoll" but that requires the guy to take charge. Like just throw me around and do whatever you want LOL.

How do you know if she's a starfish when she might just be a ragdoll? Or maybe some guys don't like ragdoll either? Or maybe "ragdoll" is just another way of saying "starfish"? Maybe i'm fooling myself and I was really just a boring "starfish"?


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## ConanHub

JustTheWife said:


> Regarding "starfish", earlier a comment was made about "starfish" vs "ragdoll". I think my style has always been "ragdoll" but that requires the guy to take charge. Like just throw me around and do whatever you want LOL.
> 
> How do you know if she's a starfish when she might just be a ragdoll? Or maybe some guys don't like ragdoll either? Or maybe "ragdoll" is just another way of saying "starfish"? Maybe i'm fooling myself and I was really just a boring "starfish"?


I don't think your a starfish.:wink2:

You probably had a lot of aggressive, dominant and/or selfish lovers.


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## notmyjamie

Marduk said:


> After I had sex with someone else for the first time after we split, I walked her to the door, was shocked she emphasized how much she enjoyed it, and was flabbergasted that she wanted to see me _again._ After I closed the door, I started sobbing, and just kind of collapsed crying there on the floor for a while. I was so relieved, so grateful, and in many ways started to be hopeful for my future - that I wasn't so damaged and useless and disgusting that someone might actually want me.


I felt similar to this after I got together with my boyfriend. My STBXH used to tell me all the time that there was nothing wrong with me he just had a low testosterone level. And I even knew he was most likely gay and yet, being with someone who didn't want me was soul crushing. It's hard to describe what it does to you. 

The first time my BF kissed me he asked first and my answer was "only if you really want to" which I could see immediately confused him. Thankfully, he smiled and said "oh I really want to" and so it was on. Later when I told him my story he had a light bulb moment. He is pretty free with his emotions and telling me what he's feeling about things which includes talking about how much he enjoys being with me. It's been like giving a life jacket to a drowning man for me. He recently told me that it's a travesty that someone with my sexuality was wasted on a gay guy for so many years. Not something I thought I'd ever hear someone say but it felt pretty damn good I must admit. 

To keep this on topic, I remember thinking I'd settle for some bad sex if that was all I could get. I can see how someone would stick around for that if they thought they weren't worth more than that. Now that I'm with someone who not only wants me but is pretty damn good in bed I thank the Lord my STBXH did stop having sex with me altogether as I'm infinitely more happy now than I ever would have been if I had stayed with him. At the time it hurt me more than I can express but now I see it was actually a gift...not one he meant to give but a gift nonetheless.

ETA: Glad you got better


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## notmyjamie

JustTheWife said:


> Regarding "starfish", earlier a comment was made about "starfish" vs "ragdoll". I think my style has always been "ragdoll" but that requires the guy to take charge. Like just throw me around and do whatever you want LOL.
> 
> How do you know if she's a starfish when she might just be a ragdoll? Or maybe some guys don't like ragdoll either? Or maybe "ragdoll" is just another way of saying "starfish"? Maybe i'm fooling myself and I was really just a boring "starfish"?


I think you are probably just submissive. Many women are and that's ok. If you're paired up with someone who likes to dominate I'm sure he loved it. If you're paired up with someone who also wants to be submissive then that might be a problem. But it's still not the same as being a starfish.


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## JustTheWife

ConanHub said:


> I don't think your a starfish.:wink2:
> 
> You probably had a lot of aggressive, dominant and/or selfish lovers.


Oh gosh, thanks!!!

Yes, i do think that was the case but worked well for me. Now I feel like a ragdoll sitting on a bed waiting to be played with... >


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## Marduk

JustTheWife said:


> Regarding "starfish", earlier a comment was made about "starfish" vs "ragdoll". I think my style has always been "ragdoll" but that requires the guy to take charge. Like just throw me around and do whatever you want LOL.
> 
> How do you know if she's a starfish when she might just be a ragdoll? Or maybe some guys don't like ragdoll either? Or maybe "ragdoll" is just another way of saying "starfish"? Maybe i'm fooling myself and I was really just a boring "starfish"?


Been with both. 

It’s fairly easy to tell the difference.


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## CraigBesuden

I think you ask her if she is okay with starfish sex. If she’s okay with it, roll her over and take her starfish.

But seriously, I’m not too focused on what the woman is doing. I’m focused on giving her pleasure. Cunnilingus is my favorite and starfish works just fine for that.


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## CraigBesuden

Faithful Wife said:


> When a woman just lays there and allows her guy to have sex with her, but she’s not showing any kind of enjoyment and not moving or being sexual at all. Like a star fish.


I can deal with her laying there like a starfish (hands straight out and legs spread apart) and not doing anything. But if she’s not showing any enjoyment then what’s the point? If she’s orgasming, she’d better give some kind of indication that she’s about to orgasm or is orgasming.

One of my wife’s best friends (roughly 50yo) has never had an orgasm. They would have sex all the time. She never turned him down. But his penis is small and he’s a quick cummer, even with desensitizing lotion. When the issue of condoms came up years ago, I could tell that he was not a fan of married men using them. (If I were him, I’d have tried the thickest condoms on the market and penis sleeves, but I guess he’s fine with his wife never having an orgasm in her life.)


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

A two yr from last response old thread....


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## CraigBesuden

Girl_power said:


> I haven’t dealt with bad lovers per say but I have dealt with the occasional bad sex... let’s be honest it happens to the best of us, especially those that never refuse and perform when they aren’t at their best.
> Bad sex (from good lovers) for me includes inability to get or stay hard. Needing frequent “help” aka oral sex to get them hard. I also like a slow natural build up... especially with oral. I’ve been with a guy that was like 0-100, like relax there is nothing sexy about that to me. Passionless sex...no noise, no change in positions, no kisses, no connection.


It’s funny. Just today I was thinking that I’ve never tried to bring my wife off quickly with oral. It usually 30-40 minutes, with most of that time reaching the first orgasm and then many more happening in quick succession after that. I know there are guys who can bring that first (and probably only) orgasm much more quickly and wondered if that’s something I should learn how to do. Maybe not?


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## CraigBesuden

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> A two yr from last response old thread....


Bad form, eh…


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## MattMatt

"What's that smell?" asked Zombie Cat. "Is it an over-ripe kitty litter tray? Nope! It's actually the smell of a very old thread which apparently is about root vegetables and a species of fish? Dang! These humans are strange!"


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