# 2 vs. 1



## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Many people here know that hubby and I are MH - we both had affairs. I was talking to someone yesterday who said I seem hung up on the fact that hubby had two affairs after I had one. I really can't seem to look at this any other way. I do understand one. But I don't understand two. That was like a giant FU to me. He saw what one did to me and chose that again soon after. I was a basket case after that. But survived. 
Husband has asked me why I look at it like this and not his four months of going off the deep end. I just can't.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Has he ever said why he had two?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

jld said:


> Has he ever said why he had two?


When I asked he said, "you had two so I got to have two" - but one of mine was a sexual assault. He KNOWS this, we called the police. Also, he was very angry I put a stop to affair #1. He also said he still felt emasculated. These reasons are so ****ty I can't even comprehend.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> When I asked he said, "you had two so I got to have two" - but one of mine was a sexual assault. He KNOWS this, we called the police. Also, he was very angry I put a stop to affair #1. He also said he still felt emasculated. These reasons are so ****ty I can't even comprehend.


Why do you stay with someone so immature?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Perhaps it is the fact that you opened the Pandora's box.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

So he gets to do whatever he wants? Why not have 10 affairs then and I should just accept it?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> So he gets to do whatever he wants? Why not have 10 affairs then and I should just accept it?


You should not accept it.

Seriously, why do you stay with him?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

So he thinks that sexual assault is the equivalent of an affair?

Why would he think in this way?

What's the back story, here?

How did this all begin?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

He has stopped,right? Remember,there was a point where you were one up on him,right?


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> So he gets to do whatever he wants? Why not have 10 affairs then and I should just accept it?


This is why marriages with infidelity rarely last. You two will both be happier in the long run if you just part ways now. Your marriage has been poisoned.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

You're hung up on the fact that when he should've had your back after a sexual assault it was all about him. 

You're not married to a man who has your back. You're married to a self centered, immature, vindictive brat.

His first one you could write off because of yours. 

So I don't think it's really about the second affair, it's about the fact that you know your hb is all about himself and you can't trust him to have your back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> You're hung up on the fact that when he should've had your back after a sexual assault it was all about him.
> 
> You're not married to a man who has your back. You're married to a self centered, immature, vindictive brat.
> 
> ...


I like your post, life, but can she really write off his first one? How we respond to a crisis in our partner says a lot about us, no? 

If I had an affair and Dug's response were to have an affair, too, I would know I were with someone even weaker than myself. I think that is what revenge is--weakness.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

jld said:


> I like your post, life, but can she really write off his first one? How we respond to a crisis in our partner says a lot about us, no?
> 
> If I had an affair and Dug's response were to have an affair, too, I would know I were with someone even weaker than myself. I think that is what revenge is--weakness.


I tend to agree, but I also think we have to cut people some slack for what amounts to revenge affairs. On one hand they're low, but on the other hand their is something to be said for some empathy. Part of many cheaters issue is that they don't fully understand the pain they cause.

But it takes a special kind of pos to pay his wife back for an assault fvcking someone else. I honestly have no idea why she's still married to this pos.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> When I asked he said, "you had two so I got to have two" - but one of mine was a sexual assault. He KNOWS this, we called the police. Also, he was very angry I put a stop to affair #1. He also said he still felt emasculated. *These reasons are so ****ty I can't even comprehend*.


And you most likely never will. You two are on different levels intellectually.



jld said:


> Why do you stay with someone so *immature*?





stephscarlett said:


> So he gets to do whatever he wants? Why not have 10 affairs then and I should just accept it?


He can not answer you because truly, deep down he does not know. He has no rational, reasonable answer.



lifeistooshort said:


> You're hung up on the fact that when he should've had your back after a sexual assault it was all about him.
> 
> You're not married to a man who has your back. You're married to a *self centered, immature, vindictive brat*.
> 
> ...


QFT.

OP,
It is highly improbable that you will be able to sustain this relationship unless you are willing to treat him as the child that he is. This may include setting curfews, monitoring activities and friends and so forth. If you want the marriage to be as you feel it should be then he must forced into compliance.

You should give serious consideration to whether this is acceptable to you going forward because you may very well be looking at 10 affairs one day.

Perhaps an open marriage is something to consider however, given the mentalities involved I would see it as highly probable that one or both of you may find someone you like better and the marriage may end anyway.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Not excusing your husbands behavior at all, but I know that my husband said that the main reason he talked to his ex gf about a future with her after he found out the full truth about my ONS is that his head was an absolute mess and he wanted revenge and he knew she would be the one to hurt me the most. I understand the logic behind that. I truly do, doesn’t make it hurt any less, but I do understand the logic. But I also realize that it’s hypocritical for me to be upset about it. 

What bothers me about your husband is that he continues to look at your sexual assault as an affair. Yes, you did have 1 affair, of which you’ve taken responsibility. But a sexual assault is completely different and I find it very cold hearted that your husband continues to throw it in your face as an affair. I honestly think that would be a deal breaker for me.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> What bothers me about your husband is that he continues to look at your sexual assault as an affair. Yes, you did have 1 affair, of which you’ve taken responsibility. But a sexual assault is completely different and I find it very cold hearted that your husband continues to throw it in your face as an affair. I honestly think that would be a deal breaker for me.


This right here - is not only bothersome but infuriating..his instinct should have been to protect you not accuse you...


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

@stephscarlett Just curious, does your H feel like you had extramarital sex N times during your affair and he needed 2 affairs to get his total extramarital sex encounters to the same number? I tried to look through your old threads, but never got to a 'body' count.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> So he thinks that sexual assault is the equivalent of an affair?
> 
> Why would he think in this way?
> 
> ...


I went away for a conference, had a couple drinks, and a guy got in my hotel room. He says that a woman who has had an affair should not be alone at a conference, in a hotel room, and having drinks.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

naiveonedave said:


> @stephscarlett Just curious, does your H feel like you had extramarital sex N times during your affair and he needed 2 affairs to get his total extramarital sex encounters to the same number? I tried to look through your old threads, but never got to a 'body' count.


one sexual encounter for me


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> I went away for a conference, had a couple drinks, and a guy got in my hotel room. He says that a woman who has had an affair should not be alone at a conference, in a hotel room, and having drinks.


I don't want to get personal on this, but since it was brought up, how did a guy get in your hotel room? Was this like a stranger who broke in and assaulted you? Or were you with the man drinking and flirting all night and invited him up only to have a change of heart and be assaulted? That could make a big difference in your husband's eye.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

We have not spoke of it in two years


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> Not excusing your husbands behavior at all, but I know that my husband said that the main reason he talked to his ex gf about a future with her after he found out the full truth about my ONS is that his head was an absolute mess and he wanted revenge and he knew she would be the one to hurt me the most. I understand the logic behind that. I truly do, doesn’t make it hurt any less, but I do understand the logic. But I also realize that it’s hypocritical for me to be upset about it.
> 
> What bothers me about your husband is that he continues to look at your sexual assault as an affair. Yes, you did have 1 affair, of which you’ve taken responsibility. But a sexual assault is completely different and I find it very cold hearted that your husband continues to throw it in your face as an affair. I honestly think that would be a deal breaker for me.


I think you were at the very least sexually entrapped, LH. I think an expert could make the argument you were assaulted, too.

I honestly do not know why you stay, either. You deserve a lot better.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> We have not spoke of it in two years


That is a big problem right there. There must be transparency in marriage. If you two cannot be transparent, you should not be together.

Marriage can be so good, steph. Your life could be so much better.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> I went away for a conference, had a couple drinks, and a guy got in my hotel room. He says that a woman who has had an affair should not be alone at a conference, in a hotel room, and having drinks.


Your husband doesn't believe you were assaulted. He believes this was a ONS. He thinks since this occurred after your affair that you should have strengthened your boundaries sufficiently to prevent what happened. I'm not going to ask you to delve into what is no doubt a painful and traumatic experience. Just trying to interpret what your husband's thought process might be.

Still doesn't explain his immature tit-for-tat thinking.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Steph, have you and your H talked at all about your affairs over the last few years?


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> I went away for a conference, had a couple drinks, and a guy got in my hotel room. He says that a woman who has had an affair should not be alone at a conference, in a hotel room, and having drinks.




I don't know all the particulars of this incident, but if you did not want to have sexual relations, communicated no, and he continued forward, that is assault or rape. By going to a conference alone, having drinks, and going to your room is not a crime. A man who forces himself upon you against your wishes is assault. In my opinion you did nothing wrong, did not deserve to be assaulted, based on your posts. Even if you flirted, dressed provocatively, if it's against your wishes it's assault. Women have flirted with me, does not mean they want sexual relations, it may just be they found you attractive, and had a good time with you. Just because someone flirts does not mean they are asking to have sexual relations with you. If a woman wants sexual relations with someone, they will let that someone know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

jld said:


> I think you were at the very least sexually entrapped, LH. I think an expert could make the argument you were assaulted, too.
> 
> I honestly do not know why you stay, either. You deserve a lot better.


I have analyzed my situation more times than I can count. Most times I don’t feel like I was assaulted, so much as I do feel like I was greatly taken advantage of and manipulated. I was incredibly drunk, relaxed because I was with a friend who was close to my husband who had never approached me in an inappropriate way, I had been with him AND his girlfriend (now wife) all night, she and I were good friends. He knew that I was having issues with J and used the friend angle to help drop my guard, and smooth talked his way into getting what he wanted. I could have left, walked home alone in my bare feet at an ungodly hour of the morning. Lord knows I did it enough when my ex husband would throw me out of the house in my pajamas and no shoes and I would have to walk to my parents house at 2 AM pregnant as he would follow me down the road in his car yelling names at me. I’d taken many more shameful walks than that one would have been. But I didn’t. I do believe he used a lot of manipulation to get what he wanted and me being in a bad place mentally, I didn’t stop it. I still can’t put together in my own head how I let myself do what I did. Why it took me actually starting the act before I stopped it. Maybe I have a character flaw. Maybe I got too caught up in the smooth talking. Maybe I was in ‘the fog’ of someone paying attention to me. Maybe I was subconsciously so angry at J that I DID want to hurt him. Maybe I was just so used to being used by people in life that I thought that’s all I was worth. But the fact remains, I did it. And regardless of how it all went down, I have to live with what I did the rest of my life.

As far as leaving J and deserving better. He’s trying. For the first time ever, I really feel like he’s trying. There is SO much that needs to change. I’m on a big pendulum swing of great days when he truly tries and I feel good about the changes that I’ve made and days where I’m just not sure if his best is good enough. And by ‘his best being good enough’ I mean, he doesn’t really speak my love language fully and I’m still on the fence of whether or not I can be 100% happy with him when I don’t feel all of my emotional needs are being met. That doesn’t mean I think he’s a bad person, at all. He’s made some big changes, I do feel that he’s 100% committed to me and in it for the long haul. I just mean that we ARE very different. He’s emotionally stunted where I am very emotional. There are things that aren’t matching up. But as far as the changes he’s made in how he’s treating me and working on the relationship, he’s doing a pretty darn good job. In a lot of ways, it’s like being married to a different man. 

Sorry for the T/J Steph.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

bfree said:


> Your husband doesn't believe you were assaulted. He believes this was a ONS. He thinks since this occurred after your affair that you should have strengthened your boundaries sufficiently to prevent what happened. I'm not going to ask you to delve into what is no doubt a painful and traumatic experience. Just trying to interpret what your husband's thought process might be.
> 
> Still doesn't explain his immature tit-for-tat thinking.


Agree completely. He thinks you secretly wanted it and loosened boundaries. 

Can you live with that?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

bfree said:


> Your husband doesn't believe you were assaulted. He believes this was a ONS. He thinks since this occurred after your affair that you should have strengthened your boundaries sufficiently to prevent what happened. I'm not going to ask you to delve into what is no doubt a painful and traumatic experience. Just trying to interpret what your husband's thought process might be.
> 
> Still doesn't explain his immature tit-for-tat thinking.




If this is indeed the way Stephs husband views the assault I'm absolutely mortified someone could think in this way. This is his wife, who cheated previously, but learned from her transgression. For him to think she went looking for it again? No, I find that to be him alleviating his guilt for the two affairs he probably never thought he would have himself. He probably sees his bad behavior is worse and deflects by saying Stephs assault was another affair. Some warped thinking on his part though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Agree completely. He thinks you secretly wanted it and loosened boundaries.
> 
> Can you live with that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think she should! I felt dirty just posting it.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

drifting on said:


> If this is indeed the way Stephs husband views the assault I'm absolutely mortified someone could think in this way. This is his wife, who cheated previously, but learned from her transgression. For him to think she went looking for it again? No, I find that to be him alleviating his guilt for the two affairs he probably never thought he would have himself. He probably sees his bad behavior is worse and deflects by saying Stephs assault was another affair. Some warped thinking on his part though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I honestly don't think it's guilt. I think he thought it was a ONS all along and used it as a rationale to cheat. And it's disgusting.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> I have analyzed my situation more times than I can count. Most times I don’t feel like I was assaulted, so much as I do feel like I was greatly taken advantage of and manipulated. I was incredibly drunk, relaxed because I was with a friend who was close to my husband who had never approached me in an inappropriate way, I had been with him AND his girlfriend (now wife) all night, she and I were good friends. He knew that I was having issues with J and used the friend angle to help drop my guard, and smooth talked his way into getting what he wanted. I could have left, walked home alone in my bare feet at an ungodly hour of the morning. Lord knows I did it enough when my ex husband would throw me out of the house in my pajamas and no shoes and I would have to walk to my parents house at 2 AM pregnant as he would follow me down the road in his car yelling names at me. I’d taken many more shameful walks than that one would have been. But I didn’t. I do believe he used a lot of manipulation to get what he wanted and me being in a bad place mentally, I didn’t stop it. I still can’t put together in my own head how I let myself do what I did. Why it took me actually starting the act before I stopped it. Maybe I have a character flaw. Maybe I got too caught up in the smooth talking. Maybe I was in ‘the fog’ of someone paying attention to me. Maybe I was subconsciously so angry at J that I DID want to hurt him. Maybe I was just so used to being used by people in life that I thought that’s all I was worth. But the fact remains, I did it. And regardless of how it all went down, I have to live with what I did the rest of my life.
> 
> As far as leaving J and deserving better. He’s trying. For the first time ever, I really feel like he’s trying. There is SO much that needs to change. I’m on a big pendulum swing of great days when he truly tries and I feel good about the changes that I’ve made and days where I’m just not sure if his best is good enough. And by ‘his best being good enough’ I mean, he doesn’t really speak my love language fully and I’m still on the fence of whether or not I can be 100% happy with him when I don’t feel all of my emotional needs are being met. That doesn’t mean I think he’s a bad person, at all. He’s made some big changes, I do feel that he’s 100% committed to me and in it for the long haul. I just mean that we ARE very different. He’s emotionally stunted where I am very emotional. There are things that aren’t matching up. But as far as the changes he’s made in how he’s treating me and working on the relationship, he’s doing a pretty darn good job. In a lot of ways, it’s like being married to a different man.
> 
> Sorry for the T/J Steph.




Sometimes when you post I am amazed at the resolve and strength you have. God bless you for having that internal strength that just pushes you forward to being a better person. 

Steph, I don't see this as a thread jack but rather hope that you see people can be better. Not to say it's not a rough road, but by perseverance, trust, and transparency marriages can become what we had so very much desired. God bless you on your journey.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Your H may have said the assault was a ONS out of anger and a wish to hurt you as you hurt him.

He had two affairs out of revenge. Your affair emasculated him and he wanted his ego restored.

It doesn't really work though.

Whether or not he believes you were assaulted, he is focused on your poor decision to drink and invite a guy to your hotel room. It doesn't excuse the so-called friend's poor behavior, but it does show your judgment about how to behave was impaired by booze that night.

I think at this point your relationship is about scoring negative points.

Time to rethink the decision to stay together.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> I went away for a conference, had a couple drinks, and a guy got in my hotel room. He says that a woman who has had an affair should not be alone at a conference, in a hotel room, and having drinks.


You should divorce him. He is not worthy of marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> I don't want to get personal on this, but since it was brought up, how did a guy get in your hotel room? Was this like a stranger who broke in and assaulted you? Or were you with the man drinking and flirting all night and invited him up only to have a change of heart and be assaulted? That could make a big difference in your husband's eye.


Ive been through this on here. He was in my friend's room partying. They knocked on my door. I saw all of them in the peephole and let them in. ONly he came in. 
They're no longer my friends and I just met them at the conference.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

jld said:


> That is a big problem right there. There must be transparency in marriage. If you two cannot be transparent, you should not be together.
> 
> Marriage can be so good, steph. Your life could be so much better.


What else is there to say?

yes, him thinking of it as an affair is a dealbreaker for me. We called the police (and a lawyer) several times. So, maybe he thinks now it wasn't an assault. But whatever it is, my issue is that I can't get over the fact that he thought he needed to do it again.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> You're hung up on the fact that when he should've had your back after a sexual assault it was all about him.
> 
> You're not married to a man who has your back. You're married to a self centered, immature, vindictive brat.
> 
> ...


If she cheated, she does not exactly have his back, as well.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

blahfridge said:


> Steph, have you and your H talked at all about your affairs over the last few years?


nope, not much. we don't really talk about any of the affair stuff. Just what is currently happening right now. Triggers, boundaries, etc. 
The assault was 5 years ago.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> Agree completely. He thinks you secretly wanted it and loosened boundaries.
> 
> Can you live with that?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


if this is the case then why did we call the police, hire a lawyer, go to rape counselors?


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I think on the surface your husband acknowledges the assault - TO YOU. But deep down I truly think your husband views this as "there were 2 strange penises in my wife's vagina, so I get to stick my penis in 2 strange vaginas. Were even."

I think there are a large number of men out there that truly do not understand sexual assault. My ex boyfriend raped me when I was 19. We'd been apart for a few years by then but I had pined over him for about a year after we broke up. So when it happened, NONE of my guy friends believed it was rape. Can't count the times I heard "Oh LosingHim wanted him back for so long, obviously it wasn't RAPE, she was in love with him once" or something along those lines. Didn't matter that we'd been broke up a long time or that I had moved on. Since I'd loved him and pined over him IN THE PAST, he couldn't possibly come back and assault me. They didn't believe it until it started happening to more girls. 

I'm not trying to gender generalize here at all. Many men DO fully understand sexual assault and are totally against it. But I have personally experienced the "she must have wanted it" from the male population.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

michzz said:


> Your H may have said the assault was a ONS out of anger and a wish to hurt you as you hurt him.
> 
> He had two affairs out of revenge. Your affair emasculated him and he wanted his ego restored.
> 
> ...


yep, exactly... except, I went over and over the scenario and I would have made the same decisions sober. Let them/him in and froze when he held my arms down.
I had had 2-3 drinks over the course of 5 hours. I wasn't drunk. Maybe tipsy.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

stephscarlett said:


> one sexual encounter for me


does your H know this and believe it?

I kinda get the eye for an eye, but not 2x....


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Maxo said:


> If she cheated, she does not exactly have his back, as well.


I sure as heck would if he was sexually assaulted.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

naiveonedave said:


> does your H know this and believe it?
> 
> I kinda get the eye for an eye, but not 2x....


yes. and I'm fairly sure he believes me. I have offered to take a polygraph.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

jld said:


> You should not accept it.
> 
> Seriously, why do you stay with him?


Assuming you cheated first------>

You cheated. You cut him with a paring-knife [in your mind] mentality. You are the gentler soul.....not in our Contemporary Society's judgement or sensibility.... but in your OWN self-comparison with WH actions after his DD. 

You accepted his initial RA. This is logical thinking. His Tat for your Tit.

But, he cut back with a Bowie knife. HIS mind needed more. Not to even the score...but to one-up the score. One A was not enough...he was still hurt. Yes, this hurts YOU. No one wants to be outdone.


His one affair did not assuage his Ego, his self esteem. You know that.

Mankind has more than one driver. We all have at least two. The logical driver and the emotional driver. There are more. This is not the post to expound on this. 

His emotional reservoir is greater than yours. Or, maybe less controlled.

This is on YOU.

You opened the door. You let the demons in. The backlash and psychological eddies from this action are not something that anyone can predict or control.

Do not count the notches on his gun....comparing them to your [singular notch]. This resentment will take you back to square-one. Do you want to even the score...score another peter?

You both need to let the past go.....or not. 

Tis, your' dual-call [you and your husband]. 

Love is thicker than water, but the Boss of Love is blood. His boss is hot and in pain.

Me? I would end this marriage. Too much drama.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

LosingHim said:


> I think on the surface your husband acknowledges the assault - TO YOU. But deep down I truly think your husband views this as "there were 2 strange penises in my wife's vagina, so I get to stick my penis in 2 strange vaginas. Were even."
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would agree this is probably where he is/was at.
Maybe he doesn't believe this now. Maybe he was in so much pain he couldn't think. But doing that and blaming it on that victimized me again. It was worse than what the rapist did.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

SunCMars;15876697
This is on YOU.
You opened the door. You let the demons in. The backlash and psychological eddies from this action are not something that anyone can predict or control.
[/QUOTE said:


> I will always disagree with this thinking. It mimics wayward thinking - that our actions are someone else's fault. If he can't control himself then he was not a sound person to begin with.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

How recently was the last time that he called your assault an affair?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

LosingHim said:


> How recently was the last time that he called your assault an affair?


probably 2 years ago. Probably one year ago we spoke about how I shouldn't have been there by myself, drinking. This is the same conversation where our MC said, "this happened to her, not you. This is what happened. And she is not to blame for it." and I don't think it's been discussed since.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

so lets say I frame this as a time when he was in terrible pain. can I get beyond the terrible cruelty of the 2nd time and the reasonings behind it? That is my real question.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

stephscarlett said:


> so lets say I frame this as a time when he was in terrible pain. can I get beyond the terrible cruelty of the 2nd time and the reasonings behind it? That is my real question.


The tragic thing about the pain of infidelity is that the victimized spouse wants to quantify the offense--even if they too offended.

The offender definitely scorekept to justify their offense--even if in revenge.

IMHO your H did not really digest the assault properly, given the later affair.

He's had time to reflect on it and came to a wrong conclusion--as a way to justify his own bad behavior.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> so lets say I frame this as a time when he was in terrible pain. can I get beyond the terrible cruelty of the 2nd time and the reasonings behind it? That is my real question.


This is only a question YOU can answer. 

But honestly, ONE affair is cruel. If it’s been at least 2 years since you decided to reconcile, why are you still ‘keeping score’? That’s not being mean. I’m saying that if 2 years later you still don’t know if you can ‘get over’ the second one – why are you still trying if it’s still “I had one, but he had 2”. Is this really a question of “I’m ok with the one time revenge, but I’m not ok with the two time revenge” or is it more that you really are just not ok with EITHER affair? I am not saying you should be ok with either affair, but I do feel that maybe you place all of the hurt on the second affair when really, it’s both you’re stuck on. 

And I think you’re stuck on them because in numerous threads that you’ve made it is very clear that your husband is NOT doing the necessary work that he needs to do to make you feel safe. I don’t know what work you’ve put in to make him feel safe, so I will assume at this point that you are doing the right things. But from what you’ve posted of him, he’s not. 

At this point, I don’t think it’s the number of affairs that he’s had that bother you so much as you’re projecting all hurt onto affair #2 because you feel you HAVE to forgive affair number 1 while in reality you haven’t forgiven EITHER affair because he hasn’t earned the right to be forgiven AFTER the affairs. Couple that with resentment over calling your assault an affair…..and well, I don’t see anything but a lifetime of pain in this marriage..


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## becareful (Jan 28, 2016)

jld said:


> If I had an affair and Dug's response were to have an affair, too, I would know I were with someone even weaker than myself. I think that is what revenge is--weakness.


I don't see how a revenge affair would make Dug weaker than you. IMO, you'd still be weaker than him. He would do it out of pain, while you did it out of selfishness. While both are technicality affairs, a revenge affair is not even on the same level as the original affair that broke all trust and destroyed the relationship.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Losing him- you are probably right. I just don't know what to do about that. You can't make someone do the work.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> Losing him- you are probably right. I just don't know what to do about that. You can't make someone do the work.


That’s the thing. You CAN’T. You can tell him what you think you need and you can ask until you’re blue in the face, but if he’s not willing to put in the work YOU need, you’re not going to heal.


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## becareful (Jan 28, 2016)

LosingHim said:


> Not excusing your husbands behavior at all, but I know that my husband said that the main reason he talked to his ex gf about a future with her after he found out the full truth about my ONS is that his head was an absolute mess and he wanted revenge and he knew she would be the one to hurt me the most. I understand the logic behind that. I truly do, doesn’t make it hurt any less, but I do understand the logic. But I also realize that it’s hypocritical for me to be upset about it.
> 
> *What bothers me about your husband is that he continues to look at your sexual assault as an affair. Yes, you did have 1 affair, of which you’ve taken responsibility. But a sexual assault is completely different and I find it very cold hearted that your husband continues to throw it in your face as an affair. I honestly think that would be a deal breaker for me.*


This x1000. An assault takes away free will and consent, while an affair does not. Your husband is sick to see the assault as an affair. Sick.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

stephscarlett said:


> Losing him- you are probably right. I just don't know what to do about that. You can't make someone do the work.


Exactly.

I've stayed off your threads for the most part because it feels like a waste of time to tell you what I think. You husband is NOT willing to do what needs doing to repair this relationship. HE IS NOT. The sooner you get that through your head the better for all involved.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> probably 2 years ago. Probably one year ago we spoke about how I shouldn't have been there by myself, drinking. This is the same conversation where our MC said, "this happened to her, not you. This is what happened. And she is not to blame for it." and I don't think it's been discussed since.


So he was made to suppress his feelings and opinion? Do you prefer to have a relationship where your husband does not feel safe to express himself to you?

Sometimes the truth hurts, so to avoid the hurt we do whatever we can to suppress the truth. While hoping, maybe even assuming, that the truth is something different and more acceptable.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Hope1964 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I've stayed off your threads for the most part because it feels like a waste of time to tell you what I think. You husband is NOT willing to do what needs doing to repair this relationship. HE IS NOT. The sooner you get that through your head the better for all involved.


Exactly. The vast majority of betrayed folks do not want to reconcile, at least after the initial reaction based on fear and competitiveness wears off.
I think you need to accept that your cheating put in motion the destruction of your relationship and he is following, albeit slowly, the path most betrayed people take: they get out.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Then he should leave.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

stephscarlett said:


> Then he should leave.


He SHOULD do lots of stuff that he isn't.

When will you realize that if you want something to happen, YOU have to make it happen?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

I do realize that: my only course of action is to leave myself.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

No it isn't. You can
- kick HIM out
- move his stuff to another bedroom
- move your stuff to another bedroom
- sleep in another bed in the same room
- serve him with divorce papers


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> Then he should leave.


Or you could. 

Do you not want to be “the bad guy” and leave because you did it first? I don’t think that makes you the bad guy if you do. You had an affair, you have owned the affair and to my knowledge demonstrated you are now trustworthy, remorseful, etc. He had a reactionary/revenge affair and then another reactionary/revenge affair. While I understand a revenge affair, it doesn’t really make it RIGHT. Sure, maybe there’s a sense of “we’re even”. Like I said, I understand my husbands reasons for what he did, but the fact remains it still hurts. Affairs hurt people, revenge affairs hurt people. Maybe a revenge affair is more calculated. Maybe a revenge affair is strictly just to hurt someone, so it’s worse than the original affair. Maybe an RA is justified because it levels the playing field. I don’t know. 

But at the end of it all, you end up with 2 people who are really hurt. Maybe the RA is justified to even up the score, so in that sense you’re “even”. But being even doesn’t erase pain and it doesn’t erase the fact that both people chose to hurt the other. It doesn’t erase the fact that both people betrayed the other. It doesn’t erase the fact that both people were secretive, hid things, gave their bodies or emotions to someone else. And regardless of ANY reason – that sh*t hurts. If both people are not willing to TRY, to do whatever is necessary to help each other heal – there is no reason to try to continue. You simply just can’t say “we’re even” and move on because pain and betrayal just doesn’t work like that.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Having been cheated on I wish I left for good when I was a young man when it first happened, I wasted so much of my life.

I do love my wife and there is a lot of good, but to constantly deal with the triggering events, the depression, loss of self-esteem, it's just not worth it IMO. Knowing then what I know now, I would've stayed separated even if it meant not being as close to my son. It's no way to live being in this constant cycle.

Looking at your marriage there doesn't appear to be much of a reason for you both to remain married, you sound worn out and exhausted through a message board if that's possible.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> No it isn't. You can
> - kick HIM out
> - move his stuff to another bedroom
> - move your stuff to another bedroom
> ...



because he doesn't think the way I do? Because he isn't doing the work the way I think he should be doing it or the way I do? How do I know he isn't?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

LosingHim said:


> Or you could.
> 
> Do you not want to be “the bad guy” and leave because you did it first? I don’t think that makes you the bad guy if you do. You had an affair, you have owned the affair and to my knowledge demonstrated you are now trustworthy, remorseful, etc. He had a reactionary/revenge affair and then another reactionary/revenge affair. While I understand a revenge affair, it doesn’t really make it RIGHT. Sure, maybe there’s a sense of “we’re even”. Like I said, I understand my husbands reasons for what he did, but the fact remains it still hurts. Affairs hurt people, revenge affairs hurt people. Maybe a revenge affair is more calculated. Maybe a revenge affair is strictly just to hurt someone, so it’s worse than the original affair. Maybe an RA is justified because it levels the playing field. I don’t know.
> 
> But at the end of it all, you end up with 2 people who are really hurt. Maybe the RA is justified to even up the score, so in that sense you’re “even”. But being even doesn’t erase pain and it doesn’t erase the fact that both people chose to hurt the other. It doesn’t erase the fact that both people betrayed the other. It doesn’t erase the fact that both people were secretive, hid things, gave their bodies or emotions to someone else. And regardless of ANY reason – that sh*t hurts. If both people are not willing to TRY, to do whatever is necessary to help each other heal – there is no reason to try to continue. You simply just can’t say “we’re even” and move on because pain and betrayal just doesn’t work like that.


he is being transparent. he is trying, but what do I need to heal? him making another sacrifice? him being more open about his feelings?


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I agree @knobcreek I’ve said before that you can just tell through her posts that she is just miserable. 

I’m not going to say she’s a sh*tty person and deserves it because she cheated. And I’m not going to say her husband is a sh*tty person because he revenge cheated, calls her assault an affair and isn’t working on proper reconciliation. Sometimes, regardless of situations some people just truly do fall apart and it’s not “meant to be”. They could still be sitting at this crossroads if none of them had ever cheated. Sometimes things just don’t work out.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> Looking at your marriage there doesn't appear to be much of a reason for you both to remain married, you sound worn out and exhausted through a message board if that's possible.


why do I stay - I do love him, he is a good husband, father, provider. we have fun together. We just bought a lake home together that we love, our four kids and that future... friendship.* it's the crap that happened years ago that still hurts and makes me wonder. *
so, if most is good now, should that be good enough?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

what if there is some way to be or think that would help me though? By the way, I'm not miserable. I'm sad, a little mistrustful, hurt, guilty.. but these emotions do not rule my life in any form.
Maybe I need to change myself in some way.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> what if there is some way to be or think that would help me though? By the way, I'm not miserable. I'm sad, a little mistrustful, hurt, guilty.. but these emotions do not rule my life in any form.
> *Maybe I need to change myself in some way.*


*Do you really have any other option right now?*


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> why do I stay - I do love him, he is a good husband, father, provider. we have fun together. We just bought a lake home together that we love, our four kids and that future... friendship.* it's the crap that happened years ago that still hurts and makes me wonder. *
> so, if most is good now, should that be good enough?


I think we're in a similar boat in our marriages, my wife cheated on me and was all together terrible for about two years, I left and really stopped speaking to her except about custody. After I felt she was genuinely contrite and she made a lot of steps to get back together we reconciled. Assuming this would just blow up I didn't necessarily stop seeing my girlfriend I had prior to reconciliation and my wife found out and was shocked and hit like I had cheated on her (I think she assumed I was just sitting around depressed waiting for her, and the fact I was sleeping with other women while separated never really occurred to her). I'm not sure it counts as cheating since we weren't living together yet, and things were progressing slowly with the reconciliation, but she thinks it was.

Most things are good, but there's still baggage that is significant that won't go away. My wife and I bought the dream house which I'm renovating, in-ground pool for the kids, I have a rental property and just bought 100 acres of land upstate for hunting, fishing, and general raising hell in the woods, great job, working on my MBA. Sometimes things are great and I feel like life is great, other times I focus on the affair and it drives me into depression for weeks that is tough to pull myself out of. I think that's what I mean by it not being worth it. It's not worth it to deal with 90% good and 10% absolutely horrible and I have to deal with mental health issues, it's just not worth it for me. But now I'm old and have too much financial responsibility to leave, hence why I wish I left when I was a young man, and I could've started over.

But for you, four kids, lake house, I know what you're saying, it's tough to leave and start over when everything is near perfect.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> he is being transparent. he is trying, but what do I need to heal? him making another sacrifice? him being more open about his feelings?


I have no idea what YOU need. 

My husband had a 10 year EA with his ex gf the entire time we were together. I’m sure at times the conversations were more emotionally charged and other times they were “just conversation”, but the fact remains he always did it against my wishes, knowing I didn’t like it, that it made me uncomfortable. He never put my feelings first. And then when we separated, they started talking even more and it escalated to them talking about possibly having a future together.

Since we decided to reconcile, he has FINALLY cut all contact with her. It still hurts, I still question a lot of stuff, but it is getting better. SLOWLY. Of course, I’m only 4 months in. The true test will come with time. Will he continue not to contact her, if she contacts him – will he tell me, things like that.

Stepping back and analyzing what *I* need:

-Transparancy: No hiding of anything. Passwords, phone access, etc. I don’t need to check all of his stuff all of the time, but if I choose to, I should be open to. I have this now
-The ability to discuss my feelings with him and him discuss his with me: We have communication problems. We don’t talk well to each other. But we have made progress in that area. Slowly. I am starting to feel like I can approach him about things without being lashed out at or called crazy because I feel something. With him, I have to ask him how he feels, ask if something is wrong, I have to pull details out. He could use some work in just confronting his feelings in a calm way and presenting them to me instead of holding them in. But it’s better than it was before so I’m hopeful with the progress.
-Affection/love/acts of love: I need a lot of demonstration of love in order to FEEL loved. I need to hold hands. I NEED to kiss, I need to cuddle, to go on dates, to be talked to as an equal, to see that my company is enjoyed, little thoughtful gifts, sweet text messages, things like that. He’s still lacking in this area, but he has changed some of these things and it is good.
-Zero contact with the ex gf. He still talks to her mom and brother. At some point I may need to have him give up contact with her mom as well. I’m not to that point right now, but I am borderline on it. He has had no contact with her for 4 months. It’s a start. 

What would speak VOLUMES to me is if he would literally realize what a predator to our marriage she really was/is, how she contributed to our marriage problems and truly see her for the scum she is and actually TELL her. I would kill to see some of the same loathing for her that I have for my OM. I don’t know if I will ever get that. But if I’m getting the rest of the things I need, and I feel that they are being done in the best interest of the marriage, then I truly believe that I will be just fine. 

The thing is, my husband is doing these things voluntarily right now. Some of them have taken a chisel to get into his head that they need to be done. But once they’ve gotten in there, he’s done a good job of keeping up on them.

So what do YOU need? What is lacking?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> I will always disagree with this thinking. It mimics wayward thinking - that our actions are someone else's fault. If he can't control himself then he was not a sound person to begin with.


I agree 100%. No argument from me.

He threw away his morals and values. 

He should have taken the high ground. He didn't. He too is wrong.



Sad-sack fact:

Had you not pushed him to the edge, he likely would have never bare-hugged his own infidelity. I cannot prove that.....neither can you.
IMO this is true.


An analogy:

Plastic explosive is rather safe to store and handle. It would be foolish to say it is "safe", but it is stable.

It needs a short-sharp-powerful explosion to set it off. In chemistry, we call this need, a catalyst. Since the main ingredient: C3H6N6O6 is a chemical, the analogy applies to your chemical attraction-encounter/situation with first OM and BH/WH.

To set off C-4, you use a blasting cap and an electric charge. A small explosion triggers a much-bigger big-bang....Ka-Blooey, Ka-Baloney.

He was the plastic that you triggered with your cerebrally explosive behavior.

Hell, men are plastic Ken Dolls....right?....Not.

I see a Gaslight in your driveway.

I am not mad or upset with you. You do have my Sympathy for your self-inflicted travails. 

Eat your Crow. Learn from it. Good Luck.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

SunCMars said:


> Eat your Crow. Learn from it. Good Luck.


I'll eat my crow and no one else's. 

he is doing all that you say, Losing Him... voluntarily. 
his boundaries are not what mine are. Mine are walled up. He thinks because
he't not having an affair all is good. We are not in agreement there. But should we be? 
so maybe the problem is me.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

stephscarlett said:


> because he doesn't think the way I do? Because he isn't doing the work the way I think he should be doing it or the way I do? How do I know he isn't?


Sorry, I have no idea what you're saying here.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> I'll eat my crow and no one else's.
> 
> he is doing all that you say, Losing Him... voluntarily.
> his boundaries are not what mine are. Mine are walled up. He thinks because
> ...


My point was, that’s what *I* need. I feel that my love for him is enough to pull me through my hurt for what he did if the needs that I listed are met. To me, those things are rather simple. But, I am also a very forgiving person. Probably too much so. Will I carry this pain for the rest of my life and question if I made the right decision even if all of these things are met? I have no way of knowing right now. I hope that’s not the case. I am so early on in this that I have no way of knowing. You are much further into this and if he’s doing all of these things and it’s NOT enough………..what is lacking? That’s something only YOU can answer. 

I don’t think you both need to be 100% in agreement on every single thing. I don’t know one single couple that is, those that have experienced infidelity and otherwise. But there comes a time when you have to decide “is it enough”? All of it. Does the good outweigh the bad? Can you live with what you’re lacking? If you’re at 90% happy and 10% unhappy, are you ok with that? If you’re not, what can you change to get to 100%? If you can’t get to 100%, can you accept that? IS IT ENOUGH? You have one life. If you feel like you’re wasting it, you have options. Easier said than done, but they ARE out there. 

Those are questions only you can answer and only you can take action on.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

LosingHim said:


> My point was, that’s what *I* need. I feel that my love for him is enough to pull me through my hurt for what he did if the needs that I listed are met. To me, those things are rather simple. But, I am also a very forgiving person. Probably too much so. Will I carry this pain for the rest of my life and question if I made the right decision even if all of these things are met? I have no way of knowing right now. I hope that’s not the case. I am so early on in this that I have no way of knowing. You are much further into this and if he’s doing all of these things and it’s NOT enough………..what is lacking? That’s something only YOU can answer.
> 
> I don’t think you both need to be 100% in agreement on every single thing. I don’t know one single couple that is, those that have experienced infidelity and otherwise. But there comes a time when you have to decide “is it enough”? All of it. Does the good outweigh the bad? Can you live with what you’re lacking? If you’re at 90% happy and 10% unhappy, are you ok with that? If you’re not, what can you change to get to 100%? If you can’t get to 100%, can you accept that? IS IT ENOUGH? You have one life. If you feel like you’re wasting it, you have options. Easier said than done, but they ARE out there.
> 
> Those are questions only you can answer and only you can take action on.


this goes back to our last MC session where he said hubby needs to be more emotionally transparent with me. THAT is what I need. Then it would/could be enough. I would like to trust more too.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> this goes back to our last MC session where he said hubby needs to be more emotionally transparent with me. THAT is what I need. Then it would/could be enough. I would like to trust more too.


So he knows this. 

And if he doesn’t DO it, then you’re not 100% happy. And if you’re not 100% happy, CAN you live with it?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> I sure as heck would if he was sexually assaulted.


Amen.

You hurt MINE, I hurt YOU. They whys and wherefores get set-aside until THIS DEBT is settled.

He *should* take care of this.....God let 'us" have our Revenge and God save me from prison.

Would you let him take the guy out.....would *YOU* want this?

What would you have him do; aside from showing sympathy and condolence?

Oh, I know....wear hoodies, dark clothes...bring a ball bat...strike hard below the shoulders. 

I ask again, "Is this what you want your man to do?" 

In my youth [a man swore at my wife] I went down that road....it did not end "too" badly....God had my back, Mssr. Reason, my response. He is alive, humiliated in front of his family. My bank account took a huge hit.

Be careful of what you ask. 

Some peoples' "emotional reservoir" is vast and once the flood gates are lifted......

Our prisons are full of Veives, sans laurel wreaths.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> this goes back to our last MC session where he said hubby needs to be more emotionally transparent with me. THAT is what I need. Then it would/could be enough. I would like to trust more too.


Neither one of you will ever be able to trust each other again. You've both seen that you're willing to knife the other one in the back. Personally I'd like to see you stay together. I'm afraid if you split up that one or both of you will find really nice honest trustworthy partners and then will cheat on them and they don't deserve. In an effort to save those poor future partners of yours the heartache, you two should work it out.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> Amen.
> 
> You hurt MINE, I hurt YOU. They whys and wherefores get set-aside until THIS DEBT is settled.
> 
> ...


Hopefully,you have abandoned the white knight stuff. Words are insufficient provocation for violence.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

SunCMars said:


> Amen.
> 
> You hurt MINE, I hurt YOU. They whys and wherefores get set-aside until THIS DEBT is settled.
> 
> ...


wow, you sure read into stuff. Sympathy and condolence would be great. That is having someone's back. Not blaming them for it occurring. At no point would I suggest violence. Where did you get that?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

LucasJackson said:


> I'm afraid if you split up that one or both of you will find really nice honest trustworthy partners and then will cheat on them and they don't deserve. In an effort to save those poor future partners of yours the heartache, you two should work it out.


what a very mean thing to say to someone who's done the work. Tell me, would you say that to my face?


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> why do I stay - I do love him, he is a good husband, father, provider. we have fun together. We just bought a lake home together that we love, our four kids and that future... friendship.* it's the crap that happened years ago that still hurts and makes me wonder. *
> so, if most is good now, should that be good enough?


Why does his having two affairs trump your having one,when the marriage was unblemished prior to your?
Couldn't he make the argument that what you did was worse because his two affected an already sullied marriage, whereas yours was to an intact one?
There are arguments on both side,a kind of quantity vs quality deal.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> what a very mean thing to say to someone who's done the work. Tell me, would you say that to my face?


I was a Marine grunt for years. I'll say anything to anyone's face. It's not mean. You both crossed a line that most people won't cross. I'd hate for you to do that to someone who doesn't deserve it. You should go to MC and salvage the thing you two have. Neither of you can ever trust the other again but it's a mutual thing you'll have in common so unlike typical R's, the BS won't have to eat sh*t sandwiches. Considering that, you two might actually have a better chance of lasting than a situation where one person was the betrayer and the other was the innocent victim. There are no innocent victims in your situation.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

What makes you think either of us would do it again ? And I don't believe you would say that to a gals face.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

I just think it does. 
With your logic, he should be able to have many affairs then.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Here's the thing Steph. Ya'll ain't in a poker game where two "A" trumps one "A". Both of you busted your marriage vows. I know you're thinking, "Well I got an extramarital lay. He came back at me and got laid to level the playing field but he decided to double down with another chick while I was walking the line. That make his actions worse than mine." As you can see for the post, its a matter of perspective.
What both of you need to be concerned about is why ya'll out catting around to begin with. Maybe if you knew that it would go a long way explaining why he couldn't resist the temptation. What's missing in ya'll relationship that makes you and him want to fall off the wagon? Are you sure the MC isn't just providing life support for a marriage that cannot survive on its own?


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Sorry to jump to the end of this thread - only read part - but I can offer one explanation. My dad always taught us if someone hits you, you hit back harder.

He worked with a lot of tough, messed up guys. It's also how he grew up even though his dad was quite gentle.

I've passed this on to my kids too. In the family we refer to it as the law of the jungle.

You hit your H harder than any man could ever hit him. I'm sure he wanted to create so much pain for you that you would never think about doing it to him again. At that level it is raw emotion.

I'd like to think I would leave if I was cheated on. But if I didn't I would be tempted to hurt (emotionally) my WW. But I would be honest and just say that's why I did it twice.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> Many people here know that hubby and I are MH - we both had affairs. I was talking to someone yesterday who said I seem hung up on the fact that hubby had two affairs after I had one. I really can't seem to look at this any other way. I do understand one. But I don't understand two. That was like a giant FU to me. He saw what one did to me and chose that again soon after. I was a basket case after that. But survived.
> Husband has asked me why I look at it like this and not his four months of going off the deep end. I just can't.


There's a political philosophy proposed by Rothbard and others, wherein justice is defined as making the wrongdoer pay twice for their wrong. Ie. you steal $1,000 from someone; therefore you must pay $2,000; the first $1,000 to make things even, the second so you truly know what it's like to have someone take $1,000 from you. 

Perhaps your H feels that way? Or he just doesn't believe you were sexually assaulted, and that you made it up to save your skin. Or both. 



stephscarlett said:


> We have not spoke of it in two years


Hmmm


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Maybe part of your hb likes seeing suffering, so he feels like he has the emotional upper hand. 

If he really does believe you were assaulted that's even worse. .... he victimized you again to make his ego feel better. 

At least if he really thought you'd made it up his revenge would make sens on some level. 

He probably does want to stay married but on his terms. He doesn't think he did anything wrong. .... you caused everything. Remember he told that "he's done suffering for this marriage"?

He's told you he really doesn't care what you need because you're not the victim, he is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Steph, my ex W cheated on me. My wife never has. In fact she has never done one thing to make me not trust her. But because of my ex and some other things that have happened in my life I don't fully trust anyone, wife included. Heck, I don't even fully trust myself. But what I've learned is that I can live with that. I know the terrible things I'm capable of. I know the terrible things that others are capable of. And that knowledge, rather than frightening me just keeps me on my toes. It makes me vigilant and aware. I go through life consciously instead of merely being on autopilot like so many others. You know what you're capable of. You know what your husband is capable of. The question is can you take that knowledge and use it to your benefit or is it going to eat away at you until you break.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

One other quick thought. Nobody is ever going to be 100% happy. You need to decide what percentage is acceptable for you to feel content. Remember also that life is not a destination, it's a journey that never ends. As long as there is progress there is hope.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> Maybe part of your hb likes seeing suffering, so he feels like he has the emotional upper hand.
> 
> If he really does believe you were assaulted that's even worse. .... he victimized you again to make his ego feel better.
> 
> ...


If he doesn't believe it, then he is a horrible person. B/C we can't talk to him, and I don't know of anything that would make me think otherwise, I'd think it best to take him at his word. 

From the perspective of being the H: She already cheated, before the "assault". She was out of town, alone, and was partying with strangers. She went back to her room, and when one of the guys she was drinking with showed up, she let him in her room. In general, her actions are those of someone who has the intention of sleeping with another man--from the outside perspective. Now maybe she changed her mind once he got inside the room, but it would _appear_ the intent was there initially. 

So... even if it was an assault, her behavior was such as to give the appearance that she was looking to cheat again. I can't see how this would help her H ever want to trust her again.

Just trying to provide some insight as to what might be going on in the H's mind, not defend his actions.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Omg I had NO intention of sleeping with anyone.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

In the 1980s I was offered coke a bunch of times and I finally tried it. It was an amazing drug - I was lucid, euphoric, happy, energetic... Manic I suppose. While on the drug, I thought "wow I see no downsides to this drug - I can't ever do it again!". It was that good. It messed up a bunch of people.

A few of my very good friends - really bright people in top notch schools who had done different drugs a little in the past - didn't make the same decision.

Good people, when confronted with choices that will give them a high of one sort or another, sometimes just can't say no.

I have never considered cheating in over 3 decades of my relationship -not because I'm a good person so , but because I know once I cross that line the next time it will seem less big a thing to cross again.

Your H crossed it twice. Will he do it again? Will you? If he's unsure of himself, he'll be unsure of you.

I'm not trying to be pessimistic - just saying you have to communicate, be vigilant, talk about these tough issues if they're bugging you, and be willing to change your mind if what you need in life changes. If you guys are comparable otherwise, then maybe you're a good match. If you're not - and that's the reason this is weighing on you - then be honest with yourself and him and fix it or move on. Sorry you're in this mess.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Well, I haven't cheated in Over 6 years. 4 for him - so I've been told or I see evidence lacking thereof. Was it an abberition on both our parts - likely. I'm not sure that is the issue. You could say we're both done cheating. Can the hurt be healed? Does the good outweigh the bad? I hate that I have to look at it like that. I wonder if all long term marriages have this imposed scale on them?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Bfree - thank you!


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

ThePheonix said:


> ya'll relationship that makes you and him want to fall off the wagon? Are you sure the MC isn't just providing life support for a marriage that cannot survive on its own?


what if neither of us wants to fall off the wagon anymore? We're talking years here now.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

BTW, concerning the 2 vs 1 there is a certain amount of logic in his actions. You broke the initial trust. +1 for you. His first A evened the score. +0 . His second A put him one up +1, so that you will know what it is like to be on the wrong side of the scoring. So is the pain you feel now equal to the pain he felt after your A?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Perhaps. But I'm not going to act out and lose my integrity. I'll divorce first. 
I doubt he thought all that out. His affairs were 3 months apart. He just did it.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> he said, "you had two so I got to have two"



You don't "get to" have affairs.

Affairs aren't candy.

They are not opportunities {or missed opportunities} and they are not "fun". There is no "masculineness" or self-esteem to be found in another woman's vagina. Just as you've discovered the answers to your unhappiness weren't found on another man's penis.

Extramarital sex is always depraved and vulgar. The act is disgusting and no matter who does it and when they do it, it ultimately hurts that person more than anyone and it opens up pandora's box of consequences. Sin is self-destructive and everyone else is collateral damage.

While I, as a former betrayed husband, might have understanding of the conditions that led to a revenge affair and sometimes find wayward spouse's objections to a revenge affair a bit hypocritical, I still believe it's absolutely wrong and ~~ if the former wayward spouse is now truly repentant ~~ they should object and speak out against adultery, expose and be offended because to do otherwise is akin to just sitting back and passively watching someone you claim to care about preparing a rope to hang themselves just because you once tried to kill yourself. You try to save them from the destructive choice because you care about them, NOT because their behavior hurts you.

You've both sinned gravely and destroyed yourselves (and a your marriage) in the process. The path away from the destruction is individual repentance then working together to make your marriage great again versus analyzing 2 for 1 and who "got to" have more disgusting vulgar affairs. Besides, the whole affair or revenge affair discussion will just end up a chicken and egg analysis you'll never really resolve. It's the past and you can't change it. But you can change your future and overcome the prior resentments and bitterness in your relationship by building a new better one. 

I penned most of the above this morning and never finished the post so the thread has carried on tremendously with exactly what I said - a chicken and egg analysis. I don't know how this will turn out for you but I do want you to know that in real life the vast majority of marriages do survive infidelity and some even thrive. I believe the effort you are making here to learn indicates a willingness on your part to learn from your errors and do better. It doesn't sound like your husband has done any repenting of his own and that might actually be your biggest problem You can't fix what he won't even acknowledge as wrong. His affairs were wrong and they hurt HIM and caused HIM consequences, including, it appears an inability to empathize with you regarding your assault as well as an unwillingness to address the real problems in your relationship probably out of fear of having to address his immoral behavior and sad attempt to find his pride, confidence and self worth in a vagina or two. 

Take care and a little tip ~~ try not to take too much marital advice from anonymous internet people that aren't married, don't support marriage and don't believe in marriage for anyone. Your family and marriage is worth it. God gave you this man for a reason. Invest your faith in him and honestly discuss with him how he can do better ~~ that is a much better thing to be discussing than negative issues like 2 for 1.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Thanks quality


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## Hantei (Feb 23, 2016)

I'll probably get schooled or even moderated for posting this but nevertheless. 

Sorry OP I've never checked your threads so I may have it totally wrong but if I can see through these very complicated comments right:

Dude had his own affairs (so no saint no matter what) 
His woman got assaulted and got blamed y him for this?
Moreover his wife (no matter what - his wife) gets an IMHO most degradeful comment of "she's had an affair she's "easy" (unless I've got it wrong) and his anger is not 110% on that [email protected]/^^7£^/? 

So he's still angry and somehow claims high moral ground? Wow. 
For me - even while I'm not reconciling- anyone who approaches my STBXW in that way deserves at least a broken nose (and gets one) yet alone when he acts.

Sorry I'm probably out of line here.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Quality said:


> You don't "get to" have affairs.
> 
> Affairs aren't candy.
> 
> ...


They are vulgar,etc. ,but ,apparently,most cheaters enjoy them. I have read that most marriages do not survive infidelity.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Maxo said:


> I have read that most marriages do not survive infidelity.


Source?????


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> what if neither of us wants to fall off the wagon anymore? We're talking years here now.


If you're talking years and you decided to stay together, why are you on a slow burn about it. When spouses start laying down with others, ain't no balancing the scales. If you stay together, you just have to accept the "indiscretions" and go on about your business. If you have to go to MC to live in the same house, both ya'll need to consider what each is bringing to the table. It may be that the affairs were filling voids that will never be closed.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Quality said:


> Source?????


Just read it. Will go back and find it for you. Said one third survive. My therapist said ten percent. Be right back with it.


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## Lilac23 (Jul 9, 2015)

Do you think it may be easier for him to think you had an affair than you were raped?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Hi so I am new here but I thought I might chime in. (Hopefully I won't get banned like SI, that place is sad, anyway). 

So stephscarlett I think you really have two problems here but they feed each-other like a feedback loop. However I think they need to be solved individually if you are to move on.


Your first and probably greatest problem is this. He doesn't believe you when you say you were assaulted. To me this is really sad, and though it is horrendous, I think the damage of your affair contributes to this. Now I do not say that to blame you for his failing here, there is NO excuse for him not believing you. You have every right to feel terribly betrayed by this, in a sense this is another betrayal you have had to suffer in your marriage. This is the kind of thing that will corrode whatever love for him you have left. The only reason why I don't say just leave him is because when someone cheats on you and proves to you they are a lair it is easy to believe that everything they say is a lie. I am sure this is clouding his judgement. I know that probably hurts to hear and I am sorry for that. 

I don't have any good answers for this though, if you can't communicate and trust each other you will not have a good marriage. They go hand in hand. I get that you don't want to blow this all up, but if you are going to leave him anyway how about writing him a letter about it. That way you can say what you want but give him time to digest it. Do not write it like (you did this to me and you don't believe me) write it like, "when you say this to me it makes me feel like this. The assault did this to me, and you not believing me does this to me, please we need to work on this so we can truly heal". I know for me when my wife is hurting I want to do anything I can to fix it. If he has gotten back to this place maybe that will help you start a dialog. Appeal to his protective nature. 

Now assuming you can fix this issue then we have the issue of he cheated twice but you only cheated once. To that I would say, I understand there was a point where you were the only cheater right, before he cheated on you he was prepared to reconcile right? You expected him to get over the fact that you had cheated even though at that point the score was 1-0 you. I really don't believe in scores but since you are keeping them I will play along. My point is basically the roles have been reverse, now in your mind he is up one. I think it is kind of tough for you to accept his offer of reconciliation when you had one up on him but now be upset when he has one on you. That's life in the fast lane as they say. Your marriage is damaged and this is what it is. If you are going to move forward you have to accept it. Unless you want to have one more and then you are even again, remember though and eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. Now I think if you can get over the first challenge then this one will go away. I think the first hurt, your husband not believing you, is what makes this one hurt so much more. It's not just a bunch of sh_t, it is a bunch of sh_t with an exclamation point thrown in. (can we curse here?) It's a twisting of the knife so to speak. 

I would really work on the first problem first. 

Good luck.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

It was on a site called " Go ask Suzie" She claimed the latest research say about one third survive. Claims to be an expert.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Maxo said:


> It was on a site called " Go ask Suzie" She claimed the latest research say about one third survive. Claims to be an expert.


"CLAIMS to be an expert indeed.

Suzie Johnson was a failed Passion Party motivational speaker and writer ~ _The Sensual Zodiac_ before her husband, Brad {Gene} Johnson got the idea to create a online persona using her image, gift for gab and a desire for her to work out of their home. I believe they hired a bunch of online freelance writers to create the content for their fake online infidelity website STORE.

This is one of 100 domains registered to Gene Johnson {here} and one of 35 associated with their business, the Marriage Wellness Institute.{here}

I don't believe the woman (nor her husband) have any actual counseling degrees, related education or experience but I'd have to research them again to recall.

It's a opportunist scam much the same as Amy Waterman, Mort Fertel and many others. 

Their only expertise is claiming expertise. I just googled her and she's recently been promoting infidelity contracts as the new "thing" wherein, mostly betrayed women, are indicating they are willing to tolerate a little infidelity as long as they get to set the terms. An example would be "amnesty weekends" where hubby is free to mess around with whomever he wants but only one weekend a month or year. 

I also saw her claim 55% of affairs are caused by boredom alone, that's it ~ just boredom and that her website is the number 1 resource for infidelity on the web {sure it is}. 

It's no wonder the NON-expert reports such little success with her "customers".

As Amy Waterman once said in an interview about creating, publishing and launching online resource marketing platforms {and I'm paraphrasing}: "online you can be an expert at anything if you say you are".


After a quick google search, contrast your fake internet expert with the following statement from an actual Clinical Psychiatrist, researcher and author of the book, "The Secrets of Surviving Infidelity", Dr. Scott Haltzman: 



> But it turns out that 4 in 10 marriages are challenged by affairs; and it also turns out that more than half of American marriages survive the affair.


Notice he said "American". In other countries, I'd suppose the convention is affairs are almost expected or commonplace. You certainly don't divorce due to one {or more}. At least that's what Ester Pearl seems to think ~ silly Americans and their naive monogamous aspirations and sensitivities.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Well 40 to 50% of all marriage end in divorce infidelity probably contributes a lot to that figure. Interestingly enough %60 of all second marriages.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Why did you have your affair, steph?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> I think we're in a similar boat in our marriages, my wife cheated on me and was all together terrible for about two years, I left and really stopped speaking to her except about custody. *After I felt she was genuinely contrite and she made a lot of steps to get back together we reconciled. Assuming this would just blow up I didn't necessarily stop seeing my girlfriend I had prior to reconciliation and my wife found out and was shocked and hit like I had cheated on her* (I think she assumed I was just sitting around depressed waiting for her, and the fact I was sleeping with other women while separated never really occurred to her). I'm not sure it counts as cheating since we weren't living together yet, and things were progressing slowly with the reconciliation, but she thinks it was.


Never heard the bolded before. Helps explain why your wife might not trust you, either.

Steph, you were never fooling around after your affair, correct? You had an affair, then were assaulted, then your husband had two affairs, correct? Did you break up both of his affairs?

Instead of breaking them up, just leaving when you realized he was cheating might have been simpler. A person who responds to a spouse's affair with an affair, much less two, sounds like too much trouble to me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> What else is there to say?
> 
> yes, him thinking of it as an affair is a dealbreaker for me. We called the police (and a lawyer) several times. So, maybe he thinks now it wasn't an assault. But whatever it is, my issue is that I can't get over the fact that he thought he needed to do it again.


Understandable. 

He showed you his character, steph. There are men who would never consider cheating, much less do it, after a wife's affair. Instead they would examine their own conscience to see how they might have contributed to her vulnerability in the first place. They help her heal. They are strong enough to do that, while maintaining integrity themselves.

But not your husband. 

Honestly, steph, how can you respect him? You know you cannot trust him.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Because I think character is better determined in the long run. 25 years of fidelity and 4 years of fidelity after 4 months of crap. That is why I stay. He is probably saying the same about me. And a deep friendship and love. it is just very hard to put that time into perspective of a long marriage when there was so much hurt involved. 

I do feel he believes me about the assault. But when something bad happens, people want to blame and point fingers and talk causal factors. "If you didn't do this, this wouldn't have happened," that kind of thing. When a woman is raped her loved ones are too. Not making excuses for him. It was excrutiating for both of us. 

I would like to start a new, great marriage as Quality suggests. But I can't do that by myself. We could wipe the slate clean and try to forget what happened. And seriously, what more is there to talk about? Someone asked why I had an affair. I suppose I was hungry for emotional talk, validation and wanted to be distracted from some issues that were going on in my life. I had no right to choose that. I should have faced the issues and my unhappiness dead on. So now I'm trying to in this new marriage. But I have to accept that emotional talk will not be on the menu. Accepting that and the fact that we broke each other's hearts is hard. I can focus on all the good things we have going for us, and there are a lot! I guess wish I wasn't such a perfectionist and analytical.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> Because I think character is better determined in the long run. 25 years of fidelity and 4 years of fidelity after 4 months of crap. That is why I stay. He is probably saying the same about me. And a deep friendship and love. it is just very hard to put that time into perspective of a long marriage when there was so much hurt involved.
> 
> I do feel he believes me about the assault. But when something bad happens, people want to blame and point fingers and talk causal factors. "If you didn't do this, this wouldn't have happened," that kind of thing. When a woman is raped her loved ones are too. Not making excuses for him. It was excrutiating for both of us.
> 
> I would like to start a new, great marriage as Quality suggests. But I can't do that by myself. We could wipe the slate clean and try to forget what happened. And seriously, what more is there to talk about? Someone asked why I had an affair. *I suppose I was hungry for emotional talk, validation and wanted to be distracted from some issues that were going on in my life. *I had no right to choose that. I should have faced the issues and my unhappiness dead on. So now I'm trying to in this new marriage. But I have to accept that emotional talk will not be on the menu. Accepting that and the fact that we broke each other's hearts is hard. I can focus on all the good things we have going for us, and there are a lot! I guess wish I wasn't such a perfectionist and analytical.


How can you have a good marriage without emotional talk?

I think the reasons for your affair are pretty common. I wish your husband could have responded with empathy.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

If you weren't so analytical you'd probably have reacted emotionally rather than trying to reason things out and make the best decision possible. Being a perfectionist, well don't get me started there. Been there done that. I've learned that when you're searching for good you sometimes have to settle for good enough...and work to make it better.


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## Dycedarg (Apr 17, 2014)

stephscarlett said:


> So he gets to do whatever he wants? Why not have 10 affairs then and I should just accept it?


Who says you should accept it? 

People make bad decisions. Everyone makes poor choices in judgment. Sometimes the consequences are as innocuous as a broken coffee mug. Sometimes they're much more dire.

You both made bad decisions. I don't think either of you is worse than the other but you should really ask yourself if you want to be in this marriage. 

If the answer is yes, then you truly need to ask yourself why. Most of the time it's because people are afraid of being alone. 

There are worse things than being alone, however. Like being in this. Be honest with yourself, and make a choice based on what is best, not on what will give you emotional relief. Sorry you're in this situation, I truly am.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

jld said:


> Understandable.
> 
> He showed you his character, steph. There are men who would never consider cheating, much less do it, after a wife's affair. Instead they would examine their own conscience to see how they might have contributed to her vulnerability in the first place. They help her heal. They are strong enough to do that, while maintaining integrity themselves.
> 
> ...


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

jld said:


> Understandable.
> 
> He showed you his character, steph. There are men who would never consider cheating, much less do it, after a wife's affair. Instead they would examine their own conscience to see how they might have contributed to her vulnerability in the first place. They help her heal. They are strong enough to do that, while maintaining integrity themselves.
> 
> ...



Your words suggest that women are mentally retarded and incapable of rational decisions and being responsible for themselves and their own actions.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> Your words suggest that women are mentally retarded and incapable of rational decisions and being responsible for themselves and their own actions.


Your interpretation, I guess.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

I don't think you're just upset that he had a second A. It's that he had 2 As *after* you were sexually assaulted, and called the assault an affair to justify it. In a time when you needed him most, he chose to further hurt and humiliate you. And has never made up for that with you. I don't think you'll really be able to forgive him until he does.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Celes said:


> I don't think you're just upset that he had a second A. It's that he had 2 As *after* you were sexually assaulted, and called the assault an affair to justify it. In a time when you needed him most, he chose to further hurt and humiliate you. And has never made up for that with you. I don't think you'll really be able to forgive him until he does.


I do understand what you're saying, but look at it from the husbands perspective. His wife who had already had an affair is drunk and inviting a man into her Hotel room late at night. The assault is terrible, but as a husband who has already been cheated on this tells him that his wife's behavior when he's not around is still completely inappropriate and she has no boundaries.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> Omg I had NO intention of sleeping with anyone.


Lying to yourself with this statement. Your IC should call you out on things like this. You can't fix yourself if you won't be honest with yourself.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

LucasJackson said:


> Lying to yourself with this statement. Your IC should call you out on things like this. You can't fix yourself if you won't be honest with yourself.


I don't think she is lying.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> I do understand what you're saying, but look at it from the husbands perspective. His wife who had already had an affair is drunk and *inviting a man into her Hotel room late at night. *The assault is terrible, but as a husband who has already been cheated on this tells him that his wife's behavior when he's not around is still completely inappropriate and she has no boundaries.


Did i miss that? I thought he followed her up and entered the room without her knowledge or invite.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Not lying, not drunk, opened door because my friends were with him. You're mean Lucas. Did they tell you to treat ppl like that in the marines, Lucas?


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> Did i miss that? I thought he followed her up and entered the room without her knowledge or invite.


From what I understand she met people at the hotel, drank with them, they knocked on her door, she opened it to let them in but only the guy came in. Unless it's a violent assault, men don't just "end up in your room" late at night after a night of drinking. The assault is inexcusable, but the events leading up to that is something the OP should own and likely what her husband is pissed about.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

Quality said:


> "CLAIMS to be an expert indeed.
> 
> Suzie Johnson was a failed Passion Party motivational speaker and writer ~ _The Sensual Zodiac_ before her husband, Brad {Gene} Johnson got the idea to create a online persona using her image, gift for gab and a desire for her to work out of their home. I believe they hired a bunch of online freelance writers to create the content for their fake online infidelity website STORE.
> 
> ...


Interesting. I have read it elsewhere, in the past( about 1/3 survival) and there are other sources claiming something like 85% survival ( which seems farfetched). The stats are all over the place in terms of range.
The therapist I saw for a while, post discovery, told me that a fairly high % of his practice was devoted to couples counseling where infidelity was an issue. He said about 10% stay together.
I doubt there are any reliable stats, as the incidence is, often, not reported or discovered.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> Not lying, not drunk, opened door because my friends were with him. You're mean Lucas. Did they tell you to treat ppl like that in the marines, Lucas?


If you go to a good IC they'll be just as blunt. You have to be honest with yourself before you can make meaningful changes.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> Not lying, not drunk, opened door because my friends were with him. You're mean Lucas. Did they tell you to treat ppl like that in the marines, Lucas?


You mean your friends just left and did not come in after presenting themselves at the door? That is strange.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

Steph, you have no need to defend yourself. Ignore the simple minded posters who are looking to blame you. You did nothing wrong. Anyone with more than half a brain can see that. If your husband ever tries to call it an affair again, I hope you leave him in the dust. In fact, I think you should have already done that a long time ago.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> Omg I had NO intention of sleeping with anyone.


Steph, regardless of your intent, do you see the point I was making? Without condemning or condoning, you placed yourself in a highly volatile situation, and took steps that from the outside looking in would give the impression that you were indeed looking for a ONS while you were away from your H.

Now, imagine being in your H's shoes. You've already cheated, and then you had drinks and let some stranger into your hotel room. Can you see how he might get the impression that you were intending to cheat? Exercise some empathy here. Place yourself in his shoes. I wouldn't believe my wife either. Sure, maybe I'd believe she was assaulted, but obviously she was acting like a cheater.

Now, if this guy sexually assaulted you, then he's a criminal, and to blame for what he did. But you need to take ownership for your behavior. 

None of this of course excuses more affairs on his part. I'm trying to help you get an idea of where your H is coming from, I'm not defending his actions. Which is what I said previously.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Even if she invited the man into her room (and I believe her when she says she didn't) once she said no it is still assault. The point I was trying to make with my earlier posts was that her husband might have a legitimate issue with her boundaries but he has NO right to call her assault an affair. He needs to separate that in his mind if they are ever to move past this huge problem.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Maxo said:


> You mean your friends just left and did not come in after presenting themselves at the door? That is strange.


This is the kind of stuff that the victim crowd ignores. Cognitive dissonance.

Steph we aren't saying you weren't sexually assaulted, we are saying that A) your story here seems fishy and B) your actions were shady in light of previous behavior. Which is why your H wouldn't believe you. We are trying to help you develop some empathy for the man you married, because if you can't empathize with him there is no hope to save your marriage.

Instead of shifting all the blame to someone else, carry your load. It is empowering to take responsibility for your actions. That's what I'm trying to do here: empower you.

The guy who attacked you is *completely to blame for that*. You are to blame for what happened prior to that. Empower yourself, and take the mantle of responsibility. It will help you heal a lot better and faster than just crying victim.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

knobcreek said:


> From what I understand she met people at the hotel, drank with them, they knocked on her door, she opened it to let them in but only the guy came in. Unless it's a violent assault, men don't just "end up in your room" late at night after a night of drinking. The assault is inexcusable, but the events leading up to that is something the OP should own and likely what her husband is pissed about.



I HAVE owned it.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

LucasJackson said:


> If you go to a good IC they'll be just as blunt. You have to be honest with yourself before you can make meaningful changes.


Actually, every IC, MC, and our lawyer told me I was likely drugged.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Celes said:


> Steph, you have no need to defend yourself. Ignore the simple minded posters who are looking to blame you. You did nothing wrong. Anyone with more than half a brain can see that. If your husband ever tries to call it an affair again, I hope you leave him in the dust. In fact, I think you should have already done that a long time ago.


I'm going to do exactly that. THank you! I can't believe I have to defend myself... this thread reminds me of something that has been recently in the news.. And it disgusts me.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

I have told my husband I shouldn't have been there by myself drinking. Repeatedly. I have empathy for his pain that his wife was raped and didn't use proper boundaries after and affair. I have told him that. And I've said that here too. Enough!

But what I will NOT say is that is was an affair and that I deserved to be punished for what happened by him using it as justification for a second affair. NO EFFING WAY


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Steph, you say you have empathy for your H's pain at his W being raped. That's not at all the same as having empathy for your H's position. Do you understand why your H may not believe you *even though you are telling the truth*? If you do understand, then why hold it against him? If you don't understand.... perhaps this is a wound beyond healing in your relationship?

Again, none of this condones having 2 RAs or any sort of other terrible behavior on your H's part. That's on him.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> I'm going to do exactly that. THank you! I can't believe I have to defend myself... this thread reminds me of something that has been recently in the news.. And it disgusts me.


I think I know which news event you're talking about and I was reminded of the same thing. Makes my blood boil.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

Kivlor said:


> Steph, you say you have empathy for your H's pain at his W being raped. That's not at all the same as having empathy for your H's position. Do you understand why your H may not believe you *even though you are telling the truth*? If you do understand, then why hold it against him? If you don't understand.... perhaps this is a wound beyond healing in your relationship?
> 
> Again, none of this condones having 2 RAs or any sort of other terrible behavior on your H's part. That's on him.


Sounds like she's given her H enough empathy over the years, with none for her in return. That's why she's here.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> Actually, every IC, MC, and our lawyer told me I was likely drugged.


That was my suspicion as well.

Bottom line is it is rape unless there is consent.

A woman can be more beautiful than Cleopatra or Helen of Troy. A woman can wear clothing skimpy enough to make a porn star blush. A woman can flirt so much that it makes a stripper seem downright prudish in comparison. It doesn't matter! Unless clear consent is given IT IS RAPE! A woman cannot cause her own rape. And any man that thinks otherwise should turn in his man card because he isn't a man, he's a pig.

To me this is the biggest issue going forward. Steph, my wife was sexually assaulted early on in our marriage. In the aftermath she questioned every action, every thought, every word she said leading up to it. She went over and over everything until she was exhausted. It's natural to do that and I'm sure you did as well. I also went through some of the same thought process because I am one with my wife. I shared her pain, her fear, her embarrassment. I'm sure your husband has done that as well. This is why I said your husband can question your actions, your decisions, your boundaries. It would be unusual if he didn't. But ultimately just like my wife and I, you and he both need to realize that none of it matters. You didn't consent, my wife didn't consent. It was rape, case closed. I find the fact that we are even discussing this to be extremely distasteful. I find the fact that your husband has doubts unconscionable. My wife would do anything to go back in time and stop her assault. I know you think similarly. What you need is healing, not more hurting. In my opinion this is the issue that must be focused on because it's poisoning the marriage.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Celes said:


> Sounds like she's given her H enough empathy over the years, with none for her in return. That's why she's here.


I haven't gone back through her other threads so I make no broad judgements, but the last response I quoted was the opposite of empathy. It was self-centered. 'I empathize with him inasmuch as I was hurt and I'm his wife'. That's not empathy. That's not an attempt to understand why he would believe what he does.

Moreover, she has stated that he hasn't said this in 2 years! So... does he still feel this way? Is there reason to continue to hold this against him? Is she just looking for an excuse to leave? If so, no excuses are necessary. No fault divorce reigns supreme these days.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Steph, 
I remember a thread about the assault. I sorry this thread has turned into a rehashing of that issue. 
I've personally spent the better part of May angry at some people in my life. By the end I was ready to sever ties and dam the consequences. It just kept getting worse. Every day the pain and anguish built up some more. Even routine email became a challenge to open and read. Finally one of the parties forced me into a face to face confrontation. We went over every aspect of the situation of what they wanted, and what I wanted and why I was upset and history that went back to people who held their positions years ago. It took an hour. I left the meeting still upset. I went home and slept. When I woke up the next day (yes it took that long) I realized that I could carry this around my whole life or I could let it go. And here is the kicker. If I could just convince myself to let it go, I could be happy again By Monday I was able to write a new letter thanking him for making me face that. I was able to let it go. 

Now I know that your cuts are much deeper. , and he has cuts too, and my experience is only a pebble to your mountain. But the same thing applies. You can keep hurting, and he can keep hurting, and you can keep saying and doing things that hurt each other. Or You can let it go. You may have to leave each other to do that. You may not be able to see each other without feeling the wounds. My hope for both of you is that you can let it go and somehow move on. He has done horrible things. He was acting out of pain. You have done horrible things, you were acting out of pain and confusion and in at least one case you were not acting, but being acted upon. But it is all past. There is still a tomorrow.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Kivlor said:


> Steph, you say you have empathy for your H's pain at his W being raped. That's not at all the same as having empathy for your H's position. Do you understand why your H may not believe you *even though you are telling the truth*? If you do understand, then why hold it against him? If you don't understand.... perhaps this is a wound beyond healing in your relationship?
> 
> Again, none of this condones having 2 RAs or any sort of other terrible behavior on your H's part. That's on him.


yes, I do have empathy for his position. But he has told me he believes me. but he has also called the assault, in a heated discussion, my second affair. He has been with me every step of the way as I called the police (twice) went to a rape abuse counselor, talked about it in MC, hired a lawyer, he talked to the DA himself, he called the rapist and threatened to kill him, he admonished my so called friends. Why would he do that if he didn't believe me. Why would he sometimes call it my second affair and say that is was the reasoning for his second affair? Why would he never ever say he was sorry it happened to me?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

bfree said:


> That was my suspicion as well.
> 
> Bottom line is it is rape unless there is consent.
> 
> ...


thank you bfree, I so appreciate this. and I'm so sorry that happened to your wife...


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> yes, I do have empathy for his position. But he has told me he believes me. but he has also called the assault, in a heated discussion, my second affair. He has been with me every step of the way as I called the police (twice) went to a rape abuse counselor, talked about it in MC, hired a lawyer, he talked to the DA himself, he called the rapist and threatened to kill him, he admonished my so called friends. Why would he do that if he didn't believe me. Why would he sometimes call it my second affair and say that is was the reasoning for his second affair? Why would he never ever say he was sorry it happened to me?


I think the reason he would call it your second affair is what I described above. He doesn't believe you deep down or at least he thinks that you were behaving in such a way that you were looking to get laid and things went wrong--maybe it was another guy you wanted, or maybe you pulled back at the last minute and changed your mind (again, I'm not calling this the case, just trying to put myself in your H's shoes and imagine what would go through my head). I would bet money he believes the intent to cheat was there. For some folks, the intent is close enough to the deed to qualify.

Doesn't make him right, but it does make him understandable. 

It's a crummy situation. Didn't you say its been years since he called it an affair? If so, perhaps he's come to grips with it.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Kivlor said:


> I haven't gone back through her other threads so I make no broad judgements, but the last response I quoted was the opposite of empathy. It was self-centered. 'I empathize with him inasmuch as I was hurt and I'm his wife'. That's not empathy. That's not an attempt to understand why he would believe what he does.
> 
> Moreover, she has stated that he hasn't said this in 2 years! So... does he still feel this way? Is there reason to continue to hold this against him? Is she just looking for an excuse to leave? If so, no excuses are necessary. No fault divorce reigns supreme these days.


Kiv - the start of my thread was about 2 vs 1. Then it went to the why's of his second affair. Then it turns into a debate about if I was really sexually assaulted and boundaries. 
No, we do not talk about my rape. 
We do not talk about anything affair related except some boundaries once in a while. or a bad dream or something.
Do I hold his second affair against him (no matter what his reasoning is) - probably. Although we do not speak of it, I'm mostly angry at MYSELF for staying. And, THAT IS THE THING I probably need to let go of. It's a huge sticking point for me. I would not have stayed for any affair - I stay because I did it first (among many other things)
Someone said does the good outweigh the bad.* Yes.* But it makes me want to growl... I'm sure the same thing is true for him.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> yes, I do have empathy for his position. But he has told me he believes me. but he has also called the assault, in a heated discussion, my second affair. He has been with me every step of the way as I called the police (twice) went to a rape abuse counselor, talked about it in MC,


What did the MC say, if anything, about this broad disparity?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Kivlor said:


> I think the reason he would call it your second affair is what I described above. He doesn't believe you deep down or at least he thinks that you were behaving in such a way that you were looking to get laid and things went wrong--maybe it was another guy you wanted, or maybe you pulled back at the last minute and changed your mind (again, I'm not calling this the case, just trying to put myself in your H's shoes and imagine what would go through my head). I would bet money he believes the intent to cheat was there. For some folks, the intent is close enough to the deed to qualify.
> 
> Doesn't make him right, but it does make him understandable.
> 
> It's a crummy situation. Didn't you say its been years since he called it an affair? If so, perhaps he's come to grips with it.


I know him well and he has never considered it intent to cheat. If anything, he thinks things got out of control and I didn't say no or protect myself. 
He can think of it as he wants to, its his right. But the fact is he had a second affair, doesn't really matter what the reason is. ANd, as someone on here has pointed out, he hasn't done the work or held himself accountable. He sees it as simply a reaction to my actions that he had no control over, kind of.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> I know him well and he has never considered it intent to cheat. If anything, he thinks things got out of control and I didn't say no or protect myself.
> He can think of it as he wants to, its his right. But the fact is he had a second affair, doesn't really matter what the reason is. ANd, as someone on here has pointed out, he hasn't done the work or held himself accountable. He sees it as simply a reaction to my actions that he had no control over, kind of.


Only he has control over his actions. That's his row to hoe.

Just to clarify, I wasn't ever trying to go into the question of whether or not you were assaulted, but point out that things didn't sound good, and a BH would probably pick up on those, which would lead the BH to suspect that you might not have been--regardless of the truth.If he just thinks there was no intent, and things got out of control, I don't see how he could view it as cheating at all.

If he's not going to put in the work on the M, then there's not much you can do. A marriage requires 2 spouses working together. 1 can't do it.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> Actually, every IC, MC, and our lawyer told me I was likely drugged.


We're not talking about the assault. What about the other affair?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

LucasJackson said:


> We're not talking about the assault. What about the other affair?


you are? Because I didn't see a question.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Hi Steph,

My H and I are also both BS and WS and we are not even close to reconciliation, though still in the same house. I think about the differences between the numbers too and also the fact that he had multiple PA's (five as far as I know), while I had a couple of EA's, one of which I always forget about because it was so short lived and didn't progress beyond mild flirting. 

The thing is, you can drive yourself crazy over trying to make sense of which is worse and why he did what he did in response to what you did. Sometimes it's about revenge, sometimes it's more a knee jerk reaction. But, only you know what you are capable of getting past and it may take you a while to even figure that out. I'm still struggling with not just how do I forgive, but how do we move on from this, what kind of marriage will that look like, is our marriage even salvageable anymore? The one thing I've learned is that it takes patience and getting to know myself. I'm working on both those things, but especially getting to know myself. I think until you work that out, you can't move forward from a position of strength. 

I am out of the business now of trying to fix/help my H. He's on his own with his own problems. We don't talk about the affairs either. I know that conversation has to happen at some point, but I want to be absolutely clear in my own mind about why I did what I did first and then how I feel about what he did. Sometimes I want to scream it all so loudly that the house falls down around us, but I know I'm not ready for that talk and so I wait. It's hard to live with what is unspoken, especially because I am fearful of what the end result will be. I've tried making peace with the situation as it is now, but it hasn't worked out too well for me. The mental stress has affected my health. So I know that my choices are to either accept what happened and make a true effort at R or end the marriage. What do you feel are your choices?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Thanks, Blah.

I suppose my choices are just to accept that it was a few weeks/couple months of us each hurting each other in a relationship that has lasted over 30 years now or just say it was a dealbreaker, divorce and move on with my life. 

I too, have learned a lot about myself. Some of it has been very surprising. 

I feel like the affairs are forgivable but some of the tendrils that linger are excruciating - like lack of trust, do I know everything, will he ever look at me the same way and cherish me again, etc. 

Even when we discuss something affair related we bring SO MUCH BAGGAGE to that discussion. It's almost not worth it talking about it, sometimes. What I feel sometimes is sadness. I am happy other times, which is good. I no longer feel like there is no way this marriage will work, so that is good. 

Good luck on your own journey!


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> you are? Because I didn't see a question.


I wasn't talking about a possible sexual assault. You admitted that you had cheated in the past. Your hubby has cheated too. In the game of love and marriage, you actually have a better chance of making it than if only one of you had cheated. With your situation there is no victim of cheating because you both cheated. Nobody has any moral high ground so you can start the work from an equal platform.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> Thanks, Blah.
> 
> I suppose my choices are just to accept that it was a few weeks/couple months of us each hurting each other in a relationship that has lasted over 30 years now or just say it was a dealbreaker, divorce and move on with my life.
> 
> ...


My wife and I got involved in numerous couples groups through our church; and, then signed on with the marriage ministry to help coach couples struggling in their marriages. Surround yourselves with happily married couples (if you can find them). We have also found it is much easier to work on our marriage by helping others with their challenges and finding them answers, alternatives and solutions. When you have to present yourself as a solid couple worthy of giving advice and helping others ~~ you kind of have to live up to that standard. So you read and become experts together sharing thoughts and ideas as they relate to others but learning, practicing and applying them to yourself. 

The first few times you find yourself thinking you can help and explain things to an active wayward can be really enlightening to your own issues and denial. It gets really hard to tell another person to own their stuff and do what is right regardless of their feelings when you haven't lifted a finger to own your own issues or address your incorrect assumptions and feelings. Like the feeling that his affairs weren't hurtful to people he claims to care about and are somehow justified by yours. 

BUT ~~You are right ~~ you can't make your husband repent. However, if you are and remain consistently a great loving and respecting wife for years to come he just can't help but to become sorry for what he did. Lots of guys have a tough time owning their crap. Sometimes they just don't say it but they show it by their kind acts of service and love towards you. 

In time the whole 2 for 1 debate will be as silly as a couple arguing about one of them having been with 10 persons before they married and the other only 6. It's just not relevant to who you are going to become as a couple.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

LucasJackson said:


> \ With your situation there is no victim of cheating because you two both cheated. Nobody has any moral high ground so you can start the work from an equal platform.


it's so odd to me that people think we're equal now. My husband cheating didn't take any of the pain away of being a BS. He still hurts from that. He's still a victim of that. We didn't even the playing field. We just caused more hurt to each other. We just added more work to our plate - as BS AND WS. Having us both cheat doesn't cancel the other out.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> it's so odd to me that people think we're equal now. My husband cheating didn't take any of the pain away of being a BS. He still hurts from that. He's still a victim of that. We didn't even the playing field. We just caused more hurt to each other. We just added more work to our plate - as BS AND WS. Having us both cheat doesn't cancel the other out.


Exactly. Equal hurt. Now you both know what you're capable of. Better to stick with each other than move on and hurt other unsuspecting people. Stick with MC. I'm sure they can fix everything.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

The husband has every right to be upset that she was drinking with male friends and was having them in her hotel room and just leave it at that. Was that cheating no and there probably was no intent to cheat, but was it inappropriate when you have already cheated and in reconciliation, especially when you are alone on a business trip. Hell yes. I think for him having all these feelings is valid. 

HOWEVER and it is a big however, that is not cheating and it has nothing to do with the fact that she was assaulted. I know he may feel disrespected by her actions before the assault and rightfully so, but he is just wrong when he uses the assault to guilt her. That is just Bulls--t. No human being should do that to another one regardless what the situation. She new these people she had every reason to suspect that she was safe. Also she has filed a police report so that is pretty good proof that she is telling the truth. He is basically saying she would be willing to falsely accuse rape to hide infidelity. That is a pretty low thing to think of anyone. 

All that being said maybe there is just too much water under the bridge. To me if you can't believe your wife when she was assaulted, because of your past history, then it is time to call it quits. Conversely if you husband doesn't believe you when your were assaulted, because of past history, then it's time to call it quits. How would either of them feel emotionally safe in a relationship like that.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> it's so odd to me that people think we're equal now. My husband cheating didn't take any of the pain away of being a BS. He still hurts from that. He's still a victim of that. We didn't even the playing field. We just caused more hurt to each other. We just added more work to our plate - as BS AND WS. Having us both cheat doesn't cancel the other out.


Honestly for lots of men I don't think it is about being "even", I think it is a way to reclaim their masculinity. (Not saying it is a good way). When your SO has an affair on you it is emasculating in a very primal sense. My wife never cheated on me but an almost wife SO did. I suspect it is similar to a woman except she thinks, I must not be pretty enough, I must not be sexy enough. A man thinks, I am not a man anymore, other men are laughing and looking down on me. How could I be a man if my wife went to someone else. Getting someone to "be" with you helps you get some of that back. 

Is it a healthy way to do it, not at all but it is what it is. I suspect for your husband the one affair didn't give him that feeling back enough so he continued. Again not excusing it but I think that is really what is going on. I would say you better make sure he has this emasculated feeling fixed or I would be worried he might cheat again.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

sokillme said:


> you better make sure he has this emasculated feeling fixed or I would be worried he might cheat again.


and I think your post was exactly how he felt. But, that is on him to fix. if he cheats again, he'll no longer be married to me. But, it has caused me worry and I why I want to know what he talks about in IC.

and to be clear on your other post - I was not partying with male friends. I was with females the entire night and stopped in at their room to say goodnight and HE was there.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> What did the MC say, if anything, about this broad disparity?


Was the rapist prosecuted? If not,why not?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Nope. DA wouldn't take case. Said it would be he said she said thing. Lawyer advised against it. So did MC.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> Nope. DA wouldn't take case. Said it would be he said she said thing. Lawyer advised against it. So did MC.


Steph, my wife refused to prosecute. There were reasons and they were somewhat valid for her and I suppose for us. But it always left a bad taste in my mouth that he could commit such a destructive act and get away with it. Of course I meted out my own level of retribution and he did know pain and suffering before all was said and done. But it didn't make it right. There was no real closure. There was no true justice, only revenge and it was hollow. I'm sorry you didn't receive closure either. It must have compounded your angst.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> and to be clear on your other post - I was not partying with male friends. I was with females the entire night and stopped in at their room to say goodnight and HE was there.


I think the key is the partying part. Partying can lead to other things. Again I am not at all saying it should be judged as an affair. I think if nothing else had happened that night, I could see you guys getting into a fight though, and him being hurt by it. But that would have been it. 

I wish I could give you a way to evaluate his insecurities about this but I don't think there is a way. The last thing a man wants to do is talk to his wife about this. And her trying to reassure him by talking about it is a little bit like a husband planing a romantic evening after the wife basically had to give him all the ideas for it. It just seems inauthentic and hollow.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Steph, I'm going to ask a question that is probably going to be distasteful to answer. But I'm going to guess that as a smart analytical woman that you've probably already asked yourself this question. If you hadn't been assaulted on top of having to deal with the original adulterous act do you think your husband would have had his (any) revenge affair(s.) I ask because in my own personal life and in dealings with men who have been cheated on it seems that one act of adultery can many times be worked through but multiple adulterous acts tend to illicit more negative and harsh responses. Now I realize that your assault was not an adulterous act but it is clear from comments you've shared that your husband may have held a different perspective at one time.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

If the DA had doubts,her husband,who had been betrayed,may have,as well.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Maxo said:


> If the DA had doubts,her husband,who had been betrayed,may have,as well.


It's not worth going down that road, it's basically a very tough case to prosecute since it happened with only them two, in a hotel room, after a night of partying. The DA may have believed every word, but it's not about what he believes, it's about what he can convince a jury to believe, and what evidence he has.

I don't doubt she was assaulted, the scumbag likely saw the ring and figured she wouldn't raise a fuss since it would be difficult to explain to her husband what she was doing alone in a room with a guy in a hotel room in the middle of the night.


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## Maxo (Mar 8, 2016)

knobcreek said:


> It's not worth going down that road, it's basically a very tough case to prosecute since it happened with only them two, in a hotel room, after a night of partying. The DA may have believed every word, but it's not about what he believes, it's about what he can convince a jury to believe, and what evidence he has.
> 
> I don't doubt she was assaulted, the scumbag likely saw the ring and figured she wouldn't raise a fuss since it would be difficult to explain to her husband what she was doing alone in a room with a guy in a hotel room in the middle of the night.


Nor do I doubt her. But,had I been betrayed by her.as her husband was,I might.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

B free- I just don't know the answer. Possibly.
To answer your other question - i didn't want to prosecute either. I looked into it for him. I did everything I could. We even considered filing a civil case and hired a lawyer. But he said it would have likely not worked out for us and our MC said going through that would have destroyed us.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> B free- I just don't know the answer. Possibly.
> To answer your other question - i didn't want to prosecute either. I looked into it for him. I did everything I could. We even considered filing a civil case and hired a lawyer. But he said it would have likely not worked out for us and* our MC said going through that would have destroyed us.*


I believe that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Celes said:


> Sounds like she's given her H enough empathy over the years, with none for her in return. That's why she's here.


He may not be capable of giving much. If she is the stronger partner, it may fall to her to forgive and move on in the marriage. 

If she cannot do that, if she keeps looking to him for emotional leadership, she may feel continuing resentment.


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## weltschmerz (Feb 18, 2016)

lifeistooshort said:


> You're hung up on the fact that when he should've had your back after a sexual assault it was all about him.
> 
> You're not married to a man who has your back. You're married to a self centered, immature, vindictive brat.
> 
> ...


 @stephscarlett - Was your sexual assault before or after your affair? I'm assuming after - If I were your husband, in my mind it wouldn't be a question of whether you were sexually assaulted or not. It would be a question of do I believe her? I know that I would not. Ask yourself this question if you will, would he have believed you without a shred of doubt if the sexual assault had occurred before your infidelity?

While he may come off as childish or immature - you need to ask yourself if he was this way before, some people will go to great lengths to have their pound of flesh. Would you also not agree that it is slightly immature to question whether two affairs vs one is justified? The question is, do you want to get caught in the cycle of one upmanship?


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> and I think your post was exactly how he felt. *But, that is on him to fix*. if he cheats again, he'll no longer be married to me. But, it has caused me worry and I why I want to know what he talks about in IC.
> 
> and to be clear on your other post - I was not partying with male friends. I was with females the entire night and stopped in at their room to say goodnight and HE was there.


OP,
You would better served to get out of this marriage and try again. You are only staying for convenience and that is unfair to the both of you.

The facts, as I have read and interpreted them, clearly show this.

This is not about an eye for an eye, it is about your self fulfillment. Other issues in the marriage notwithstanding, your H's 25 years of fidelity was "rewarded" by your infidelity. That is not equal treatment.

If he wasn't meeting your emotional needs you could have not met his and although childish, it would have been equal. Not what happened.

Also, no woman can fully understand nor appreciate the damage to a man's psyche to be betrayed by the one person that never would. If you believe otherwise you are deluded. An "e tu brute" experience only more damaging.

Your H was most likely experiencing emotions that you cannot fathom and your response was to be out of town on business, drinking and then opening your door to "friends" after becoming tipsy. What were your friends going to do in your hotel room?

As to the assault, how we're not the bruises, scratches, lacerations, pulled out hair and the like not sufficient evidence for the DA to convict. And testimony from witnesses who heard the screams and loud noises from the struggle going on in your room.

Also, what caliber of individuals are you associating with that would drug and assault a married woman. Has this man had charges brought against him before or was this his first and only drugging/rape?

These are most likely your H's thoughts if he is anywhere near as analytical as you. Your behavior in this matter, especially post affair, could be viewed as reckless to say the least. The actions were not carefully analyzed beforehand.

You are viewing this as a game and nothing could be farther from reality. This is more akin to war. There is no score to even, there is only more damage to cause. It would be similar to trying to rebuild a bombed city by dropping more bombs.

You asked what you should do and how you should think so as to move forward and R the marriage. The answer is to completely replace your thoughts and concerns about you with thoughts and concerns about your H. Until you both can do this, which I see as highly improbable, then your marriage will hobble along as it has been.

It is that simple, sacrifice oneself for one's spouse and vice versa. Only then can true R be accomplished.

There has been much pain and heartache in this M and, given you and your H's past behavior, I feel strongly that to expect self sacrifice from the two of you is unrealistic.

Lastly, it took an affair for you to have your epiphany and to realize that you will never cheat again. What if your H, due in part to his pain that you caused, needs more "experience" to come to that same resolve, is he to be denied that because it will "put him ahead"? Try this, if you must think of this as a game think of it as a game of golf. If you never cheat again then you win, no matter how many times he does.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Well I'm a woman so apparently I won't be able to understand this. My god. I can't believe this crap. 

If he doesn't believe me then why doesn't he just leave. He can date and screw around and get his masculinity back all he wants then .


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> Well I'm a woman so apparently I won't be able to understand this. My god. I can't believe this crap.
> 
> If he doesn't believe me then why doesn't he just leave. He can date and screw around and get his masculinity back all he wants then .


He likely has mixed feelings, too. That is probably why he is there with you, but not totally there with you.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

So he should just be able to affair away until he gets it? I can't believe the advice in this thread.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> Well I'm a woman so *apparently I won't be able to understand this.* My god. I can't believe this crap.
> 
> *If he doesn't believe me then why doesn't he just leave.* He can date and screw around and get his masculinity back all he wants then .


I do not see where you care to understand it, ability notwithstanding and therein lies the problem.

For the exact same reason you do not, convenience.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> So he should just be able to affair away until he gets it? I can't believe the advice in this thread.


You did.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Steph, I do understand what some people are trying to say. 

Please let me preface this by saying, your assault was just that, an assault and not your fault. The man who did this to you is complete scum. He deserves to have his nuts chopped off and fed to him. 

I think what people are trying hard to say, and not coming off clearly, or coming off as cold, is the precursor to the assault. 

Married woman who has cheated before, strange town, alcohol, partying in hotel rooms. Having cheated, your boundaries should have been iron tight and they weren't. This does not mean you are a bad person, this does not mean that you deserved to be assaulted. What this means to me is that some on here are thinking this is what lends to your husband thinking this was an affair. He may deep down believe this was an assault, but on the other hand think "but she was drinking and hanging out with men like it was no big deal, maybe she wanted it".

That doesn't make him right. At all. Obviously, I don't know your husband, but the fact that he has called this an affair makes me not like him. 

What you ARE guilty of, is having soft boundaries that night. What you are NOT guilty for is being sexually assaulted. You could've been dancing around naked and you shouldn't be sexually assaulted, but you would be guilty of that dancing around naked being highly inappropriate. Two separate issues, IMO. 

My husband has a porn problem. He has agreed to give up porn for 30 days (looooong back story on this). If he visits Pornhub without the intent to actually WATCH anything, he's still guilty of not keeping the boundary up. That doesn't mean I shun and divorce him for tempting the boundary, but tempting the boundary is going to put questions in my head.

You're guilty of pushing the boundary and NOTHING more.

It's been 2 years since he's called it your second affair, you don't discuss it, you don't discuss the affairs at all, he's not done the necessary work to right his own wrongs. And you have some MAJOR resentment towards him for calling it an affair and for his affair #2. (I would be incredibly resentful if my husband called it an affair too).

So what's the answer? Can you let it all go? Can you look at only the present and the future? 

One suggestion that I've never said to anyone here, because it's not common and I don't really know if I believe it really works. Hypnosis. A friend of mine caught her husband cheating. She went into spirals of panic attacks, wasn't functioning many months after they decided to stay together. Couldn't be a mom, almost lost her job, she became a zombie. She saw a hypnotist and swears that from that point on, she was able to separate the past life and past trauma and stay in the new life and that they're happy. She immediately stopped having panic attacks and was not constantly in a depressed state. They've been back together for 10 years now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

jld said:


> I believe that.


I agree. It was extremely stressful on us without trying to work through infidelity. Add that and a trial on top and I can't even imagine. Still, the lack of closure still eats at me and my wife admits it feels like a wound that never heals.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> B free- I just don't know the answer. Possibly.
> To answer your other question - i didn't want to prosecute either. I looked into it for him. I did everything I could. We even considered filing a civil case and hired a lawyer. But he said it would have likely not worked out for us and our MC said going through that would have destroyed us.


See, I think at least a part of your husband blamed you for the assault. That's why he considered it an act of infidelity. And while I think he could have worked through one "affair" I think this second "affair" in his mind made him more angry and less conciliatory. That's why he gave himself permission to have a revenge affair. In his mind you were a multiple cheater so he could be as well. I think the assault was the tipping point for him and rather than providing you with the strength and support you needed he chose to cheat. I think that's where a lot of your built up resentment comes from and this issue needs to be exhumed and dealt with if you are to move forward.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Step, it could be a simple as he had a second affair because he wanted to. All these excuses may be just that - excuses.

You probably mentioned this in another thread, but what were the circumstances of his second affair?


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> Well I'm a woman so apparently I won't be able to understand this. My god. I can't believe this crap.
> 
> If he doesn't believe me then why doesn't he just leave. He can date and screw around and get his masculinity back all he wants then .


Didn't he already do that by having two revenge affairs?


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> Obviously, I don't know your husband, but the fact that he has called this an affair makes me not like him.


I don't know how the assault took place. I am no way implying the actual assault is ok or should be characterized as an affair. But someone broke in and raped a woman is a different than her meeting a guy, getting into some heavy petting, and saying no at the last minute. Laying the actual physical assault aside which in never justified, he may be considering the fact that she went where she went and was doing what she was doing just before the assault took place. Her husband may have a legitimate concern that she was flirting, and sexually teasing some guy even after her first affair and subsequent reconciliation.
Again, not saying the assault is ok, but a woman meeting other guys in a private setting is not ok either.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Steph

I too am shocked at some of the responses you have received in this thread. So I'm going to start with assault, I don't care what you did, if you said no or resisted its assault. You did nothing wrong, nor did you "ask" for this to happen. To everyone who says poor boundaries or her behavior before please read this carefully. If this was your mother, sister, wife, daughter, would you ask or tell them they have poor boundaries? Steph opened the door to a GROUP of coworkers, she had no idea no others would enter or not. Now to say she has poor boundaries remember she is intoxicated and possibly drugged at this point. Nobody can say when the drugging allegedly took place but it may have happened prior to her returning to her room.

I find it disturbing that steph is being grilled for poor boundaries, and for the assault. Steph, if you don't remember much of the assault that's a blessing, and if you do remember, I am so sorry. Assault is traumatic event, one that can have serious repercussions, so please everyone remember to have compassion for an assault victim. Just asking random questions and stating rude comments bring pain to most assault victims, is that what you are aiming for? 

Steph, if you have gone over these affairs in MC and are in reconciliation, have you completed forgiveness? If you have, the affairs are not to be used as points in an argument. This is key in moving forward, you don't forget, but if all has been discussed it's done with. Now, this does not mean the pain ends, trust is restored, or that you forget about it. What it means is that you are starting over, building a new foundation, learning to love each other as you both change. Learning to be vulnerable, this builds trust between the two if you, and yes it's a slow process. I don't trust my wife completely, but I trust her more today then yesterday, and if this keeps going I will trust her more tomorrow then today. It's slow, it's painful, it's learning about you and your spouse. It's learning how to have a strong marriage with stronger individuals then before. I'm sure you know this, but it takes hard work to do this, it takes self reflection, it takes two people to tear down all the walls surrounding themselves. All the while trust is not at a level you are comfortable with and you have pain from the betrayal. You also have the added damage that an assault brings to the table. 

I hurt, but my days are getting better, my wife hurts, but her days are getting better too. She hasn't forgiven herself, and I'm not sure if your husband has forgiven himself. I think you are on the way to forgiving yourself, but not quite there either. This is probably where you and your husband have the most difficult, and being in pain causes arguments. You have to try harder to make those arguments conversations, without bringing up the past. It's hard, I know, I still have moments of wanting justice, justice that will never come. 

Your husband was emasculated as I was, but I'm going to go a different path with the pain he feels of the assault. I think your husband never thought he was capable if an affair. I don't think he ever saw his wife would be a victim of assault, but it's happened. I think part of his pain is that he wasn't possibly there to protect you. That he thought he could protect you. This has possibly caused him even more pain in that he is hurting to the extent of lashing out. But that came out in having a second affair causing even more pain. His pain may be why he sometimes considers this an affair, and not an assault. He may have supported you hoping that if he could prove it was an assault it would lessen his pain. I really don't know if I'm right or wrong, but it may be shat has happened. 

Best of luck to you and God bless.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

I imagine your husband is torn. With such a long marriage, I'm sure you mean the world to him. We men are possessive. You giving yourself to another man did some serious damage to your husband that he has not recovered from. To him, you allowed a man to steal what was his. Adultery is actually worse than theft. It's actually treason to the family/marriage.

The assault is a bridge too far for your husband. His logical mind doesn't believe it. His emotional side, that can't stand the thought of losing you, wants to desperately believe it. Him deciding to pursue a 2nd PA tells you which side is winning.

Can I ask you what type of PA did you engage in? Length of time, were proclamations of love exchanged, future faking/desiring VS your husband's PA. Was his a ONS? Did he proclaim to love this person, or plot or dream of running off with her? 

I ask because I notice that most WW have intense sexual PA that involve proclamations of love with future faking or desiring with complete detachment from husband whereas revenge affairs that men engage in are usually cheap ONS or short non-sexual PA with no emotional attachment. I believe you can understand how a BH would feel the scales were not even in cases like these.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Context is so important, and infidelity forever changes the context of everything within the relationship. The assault, in a marriage without infidelity could be handled no questions asked, but in the context of previous infidelity, the benefit of the doubt is lost.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

So for the sake of argument let's say he thought it was second affair, so then he was justified in doing it twice. 
Using that argument, and knowing what happened to me was an assault, then I'm owed an affair. That's the logic here. 
I have no right to do that. 
People need to, at some point, act with dignity, honor and integrity.
I'm going to ask him on Sunday night. I think he'll say he believes me but that the pain was so great he wasn'tthinking straight.


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

FFS people, steph was NOT pushing boundaries at all. She was at a conference. She chilled with some women and had a couple of drinks. She did NOT get drunk. She hung out with WOMEN. She was NOT partying. The dude slipped into the group somehow and most likely drugged her. She only opened the door because she saw her friends in the peep hole. And by that time the drugs were taking effect. She is a victim and she didn't put herself in any compromising situation. The amount of victim blaming in this thread is utterly disgusting. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. And yes, grilling her on having poor boundaries IS victim blaming.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> So for the sake of argument let's say he thought it was second affair, so then he was justified in doing it twice.
> Using that argument, and knowing what happened to me was an assault, then owed an affair. That's the logic here.
> I have no right to do that.
> People need to, at some point, act with dignity, honor and integrity.


No affair is justifiable. (Understandable is different than justifiable.) You both hurt yourselves and each other with what you each did.

It really would have been nice if he had been stronger and had stopped the downward motion instead of giving in to it.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

So Steph, I've read through your postings and here is my tuppence worth of observations and advice:




There is no "fair accounting" practice in this - I cheated once so he gets to cheat once is not how it works. You cannot compare or contrast infidelity. He is doing now what he feels like doing - right or wrong - but you cannot try and balance the number of affairs out. Thats not how it works. You cheated and then he cheated. Thats all you can say. It might be that your one fling meant more to you (and therefore more painful to him) than his two affairs (could have been completely meaningless, who knows) - in which case, who is to say who was more destructive.


The [email protected] who raped you needs to be tracked down and dealt with - no question there. Preferably within the limits of the law. Else …. (if it were me) … and that is something that your husband needs to man up to - he needs this explained to him but he is acting like a jacka$$ at the moment (possibly justifiably) so that he cannot see this.


You need to be more vigilant about who you drink with and socialise with going forward - you were obviously a target for the predatory POS.


Your husband needs someone who knows what they are doing talking to him and then the two of you need counselling together.




I hope that someone can make your husband see sense but don't try and balance out your actions with his etc.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

I'm confused. What do you want people to say?

Personally I don't think it matters what anyone here says. You've been given a bunch of possibilities about what H might have been thinking and I suspect many of them probably come close and I suspect many also have come close to expressing what he felt.

Does that help you in any way? You seem to argue with us as though we are your H. We're not. But if you don't like the speculation about what H was thinking or feeling, then you have to talk to H and ask him yourself.

Even then, what will you have?

I don't know if your marriage is good or bad at this point. You seem to say it's good. If so, what are you doing now? 

I don't think you are trying to understand. It won't help anyway. It's done. You broke the marriage and H did a little Irish jig on it afterward.

You either choose to move on and fully forgive; or you just get older and don't forgive. Same with him.

I think it's hypocritical to even worry about how many steps were in H's little Irish jig in the corpse of his marriage.

And maybe it's as simple as that. Maybe you never accepted that you killed the marriage with your affair. I think you should accept that. Then his angry response won't have the same impact on you. But it's completely true.

So the starting point for the new marriage is sometime after the damage to the old one was done.

Many here say recovery doesn't start for a BS for a long time after the A, and many WS have expressed frustration that the R can't just move forward. Could be as simple as you were ready to move forward and H was not and was reliving your infidelity in his head while you were trying to move on. To him the second A was just still in the time when your A was still active in his mind and he was groping to deal with it. Emotionally it was still happening to him. Anyway, as I said, it doesn't matter. The old marriage was dead and H SURELY wasn't ready to build a new one with during that time.

Good luck.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Steph, I have nothing to offer wrt your marriage. But I did want to offer what lame support I have. I am sorry that this happened to you. And I am sorry you are suffering for it still.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

drifting on said:


> Steph
> 
> I too am shocked at some of the responses you have received in this thread. So I'm going to start with assault, I don't care what you did, if you said no or resisted its assault. You did nothing wrong, nor did you "ask" for this to happen. To everyone who says poor boundaries or her behavior before please read this carefully. If this was your mother, sister, wife, daughter, would you ask or tell them they have poor boundaries?


If my wife was alone drinking with a guy in a hotel room and got assaulted I wouldn't remain married, in my mind she is not in this marriage anymore and there's just no trust she will ever keep proper boundaries. If my daughter was drinking with a strange man in a hotel room alone and was assaulted I would tell her I thought she were smarter than that and we raised you with better sense. Bad people are out there, learn to be smart and protect yourself. if I wear a Rolex watch I deserve to be able to wear it without being assaulted. If I wear it walking through East NY where people don't see 10K in 2 years and someone mugs me and steals they're wrong, I didn't deserve to be mugged, but I'm also a jackass for wearing a 10K watch down a street with high poverty and crime rates.

No one is saying the assault is OK, but drinking with a man in a hotel room alone isn't either. 

If your wife invites a man into her room while on a business trip, they kiss, perform oral on each other, but then she says no to sex and he assaults her, it's still a sex assault but as a husband are you not allowed to be upset by the events leading up to the assault?

It reminds me of the Dr who died of a Coke overdose in NY. She was 35, 3 kids, married to another doctor, the cops found her in a hallway topless with her panties in her purse and partying with two guys in a Hotel room. How does the husband process that, is he not allowed to feel betrayed even though something terrible happened to his wife and she died?

I'm guessing that's where her husband is coming from.


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Do any of you even read what is on this thread? She was NOT alone in a hotel room drinking with a man. Geez, at least take the time to read through the thread before you post. Knee jerk reactions are not helpful. If you can't be bothered to read the history then stay away. Grrrrrr......


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> If my wife was alone drinking with a guy in a hotel room and got assaulted I wouldn't remain married, in my mind she is not in this marriage anymore and there's just no trust she will ever keep proper boundaries. If my daughter was drinking with a strange man in a hotel room alone and was assaulted I would tell her I thought she were smarter than that and we raised you with better sense. Bad people are out there, learn to be smart and protect yourself. if I wear a Rolex watch I deserve to be able to wear it without being assaulted. If I wear it walking through East NY where people don't see 10K in 2 years and someone mugs me and steals they're wrong, I didn't deserve to be mugged, but I'm also a jackass for wearing a 10K watch down a street with high poverty and crime rates.
> 
> No one is saying the assault is OK, but drinking with a man in a hotel room alone isn't either.
> 
> ...




Knobcreek

In your Rolex example you know none of the people in east NY, therefore not one ounce of trust. These were coworkers at a conference, someone she knew, more trust then trusting a stranger. Perhaps they were discussing the subject of the conference, bar closed, lobby filled, but it really doesn't matter does it? Two adults cannot drink alone? So if your daughter drank alone you would really tell her to be aware? And when your daughter tells you, yes I know and worked with him and had some trust, I wasn't drinking with a stranger dad. You would feel the same way? BULL, you know damn well you would at the very least wish him harm in any form. What you have said above counters nothing, the problem is the guy was a predator. I pray this never happens to your daughter, but I pray you have the common sense to support her rather then lecture her on being aware!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Steph, there are a lot of double standards here on TAM for men and women. 

"No woman can understand"? That carries a nice little implication that womens affairs are worse then mens, because clearly they hurt men more. 

Steph is also a betrayed spouse, but since affairs don't bother women as much I guess it's no big deal. 

That's how this works right? 

Funny thing is that I always knew was the case but know I see it on action.

She's only a betrayed wife, she has no idea how bad it hurts. 

Geez, what misogynistic crap. Well maybe no man can understand what it's like for a woman to be assaulted and then find out that her hb doesn't have her back, because his poor little ego is hurt. 

I guess once a guy is betrayed standards of behavior no longer apply to him and it's a free for all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

When did it become socially acceptable for women to get knock down drunk and put themselves in very vulnerable situations. If the sexes are supposed to be equal, then they have to be equally responsible. Freedom and "rights" comes with consequences and responsibility. 

If I'm drunk, I can't sexually assault a woman and use the alcohol as an excuse. If I do a bunch of shots and now I'm feeling super manly, if I bust some dudes head open with a wrench because I think he's looking at me crossed, the police rightfully would lock me up.

We have WAY to many woman doing sexual things and then blame the drinking the following day when the regret kicks in. It's like almost every thread a WW starts here has them using being drunk as the reason for breaking their vows.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Steph, I've tried to give you an explanation about what your husband may have been thinking. It would not have been the way I thought or acted but everyone is different. I need to step away from this thread for a while as it is upsetting me greatly considering my wife and I have been through something similar and my anger and frustration are boiling over at some of the comments being made. All I can say at this point is that these posts reflect a thought process that may give you insight into your husband's mind at the time of your assault. I truly pray you find what your looking for but I'm too disgusted to stick around.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

jsmart said:


> When did it become socially acceptable for women to get knock down drunk and put themselves in very vulnerable situations. If the sexes are supposed to be equal, then they have to be equally responsible. Freedom and "rights" comes with consequences and responsibility.
> 
> If I'm drunk, I can't sexually assault a woman and use the alcohol as an excuse. If I do a bunch of shots and now I'm feeling super manly, if I bust some dudes head open with a wrench because I think he's looking at me crossed, the police rightfully would lock me up.
> 
> We have WAY to many woman doing sexual things and then blame the drinking the following day when the regret kicks in. It's like almost every thread a WW starts here has them using being drunk as the reason for breaking their vows.


She was not knock down drunk. She's said several times she had maybe 3 drinks. 3 drinks for me is nothing and I don't even drink that often. She said she was maybe a bit tipsy but nothing else. At the start, she was drinking with a group of BOTH sexes who she thought were friends. Later, she went to her room, the friends knocked on the door (both sexes) the MAN came into her room and insulted her. 

The only thing that's slightly questionable in my opinion is, why drink with the opposite sex after an affair? EVERYTHING else is separate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

jsmart said:


> When did it become socially acceptable for women to get knock down drunk and put themselves in very vulnerable situations. If the sexes are supposed to be equal, then they have to be equally responsible. Freedom and "rights" comes with consequences and responsibility.
> 
> If I'm drunk, I can't sexually assault a woman and use the alcohol as an excuse. If I do a bunch of shots and now I'm feeling super manly, if I bust some dudes head open with a wrench because I think he's looking at me crossed, the police rightfully would lock me up.
> 
> We have WAY to many woman doing sexual things and then blame the drinking the following day when the regret kicks in. It's like almost every thread a WW starts here has them using being drunk as the reason for breaking their vows.


This is ridiculous, how is there a connection between what happened to the OP and women blaming drinking for their bad behavior? She has stated that she and others believe she was drugged. I guess that's just an excuse also. 

And you don't see men doing the same thing - talk to my H who was a functional alcoholic during his 5 affairs. But hey, all men use that excuse, right?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

LosingHim said:


> She was not knock down drunk. She's said several times she had maybe 3 drinks. 3 drinks for me is nothing and I don't even drink that often. She said she was maybe a bit tipsy but nothing else. At the start, she was drinking with a group of BOTH sexes who she thought were friends. Later, she went to her room, the friends knocked on the door (both sexes) the MAN came into her room and insulted her.
> 
> The only thing that's slightly questionable in my opinion is, why drink with the opposite sex after an affair? EVERYTHING else is separate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The other issue is that even if she was falling down drunk (which she wasn't) it's not a crime. 

Irresponsible yes, crime no. 

Raping someone, however, is a crime. 

By this logic nobody should EVER be drunk. I have a hard time believing none of the guys here are ever drunk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

blahfridge said:


> This is ridiculous, how is there a connection between what happened to the OP and women blaming drinking for their bad behavior? *She has stated that she and others believe she was drugged. I guess that's just an excuse also*.
> 
> And you don't see men doing the same thing - talk to my H who was a functional alcoholic during his 5 affairs. But hey, all men use that excuse, right?


I'm not saying she's lying. But there is no denying the amount of WWs starting threads blaming being drunk for breaking their vows.

As for being drugged, not only her husband but the police had doubts about her story. But she doesn't have to justify herself. This thread is about her husband having a 2nd revenge affair. What's more relevant to this thread is the type of affair she had vs the type of revenge affair he had. 

As for your husband having 5 affairs while being a drunk. I doubt he used that as an excuse but if he did, it's pure bull. You should have kicked him to the curb.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

knobcreek said:


> If my wife was alone drinking with a guy in a hotel room


I confess that this angers me. Read the thread before you start with this bologna and post based on the facts.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

blahfridge said:


> Steph, have you and your H talked at all about your affairs over the last few years?





stephscarlett said:


> nope, not much. we don't really talk about any of the affair stuff. Just what is currently happening right now. Triggers, boundaries, etc.
> The assault was 5 years ago.


Maybe it is time to talk again. It might help you make that stay-or-go decision.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

drifting on said:


> : Two adults cannot drink alone?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not with the opposite sex when you're trying to recover from a bout with cheating. I don't know the circumstances of the assault. Nonetheless, if a woman gets raped while alone in a hotel room with a guy, there are two issues. One, the assault which she is not responsible and the man should be dealt with. But you have that big two that needs explaining. Why the hell would a man's wife go alone (or remain in another man's hotel room) for a drink and was there any hugging, squeezing, and kissing before the assault?


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
People here can make this about misogyny or misandry or racism or what have you. You came here asking for insight into what your H's motivations might be and subsequently advice on how to proceed in the light of your H's behavior. I am offering that and if some want to accuse misogyny then that is their option. It is not true for if I disliked women I would not attempt to advise you but rather I would call you various slanderous names and exit the thread.

Whatever spin one wants to put on my words the fact remains that, post affair, your boundaries were not rock solid as one would expect from one truly desirous of repairing a marriage. Going away on business alone, drinking and getting "tipsy" in mixed company and then going by your friends room to say goodnight (which is a new insertion to this story) then having those friends knock on your door and you opening to invite them in. It all seems rather careless for someone in R but it is your story. It is fantastic and barely plausible to me and you have not betrayed me.

You mentioned that, assuming your H considered the assault an affair then he is justified for two and since you do not consider it an affair then you are actually owed one. Do you not see the idiocy in this thinking. If you hear nothing else I say hear this NO AFFAIR IS JUSTIFIED FOR ANY REASON, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE OR AT ANY TIME. What your H did was childish and destructive but after learning of your A he was either not thinking clearly or was not even able to process and think at all. I do not know which but either way he traveled the more destructive path.

The only advice I have given is quite simple, either climb down from your high horse, stop considering yourself first, lead your approach with empathy for your H, realize he needs to heal and act accordingly or pursue option two. If you are saying why should I have to do that the answer is because you drew first blood. If your response to this is to immediately buck up and feel self righteous then you should pursue option two which is to divorce this POS cheater you call a H, take him for all he has and leave him in ruins. You are owed at least that much for his insolence.

And for any that question the accuracy of any woman knowing how a man feels that is betrayed I challenge your contention. I, as a man, cannot truly know the depth of pain that a loving W feels at her H's betrayal and I would not assume to because I am not a woman. That is why there are women on this board who can relate that knowledge and I would find it reprehensible to accuse them of misandry if they claimed to understand that pain. How can I as a male even make that assertion?

In any event, I would leave you with this to ponder. Look up the words "remorse", "contrite", "angry" and "indignant" and then compare your attitude to see which ones you more closely align with.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Guess what, folks? 

Rape is rape. 

He uses force? It's rape. 

He uses alcohol? It's rape.

He uses blackmail? It's rape.

He uses trickery or subterfuge? It's rape.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

My god ppl. I was only drinking with women!!!


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> My god ppl. I was only drinking with women!!!


Steph I understand that. And many here are getting it wrong in assuming you were drinking with this POS! He clearly targeted you and came to your room with the others to dupe you into opening the door when he only came in. Here is where my advice comes in:

First, drinking with "friends" (that you had just met at the training course or convention or whatever it was) is not always a good idea. I understand needing to party from time to time, but after an affair and generally in marriage, you need to do this in a much safer environment and with your hubby or known loved ones in tow. This sort of behaviour at conventions, training courses etc with virtual strangers is not a good idea and less so, when you are in a committed relationship. You cannot be the party girl anymore.


Second, the minute he entered your room you should have stopped it there and then. While the door was open and as soon as you realised no one else was coming in, you should have kept the door open and sternly asked him to leave - in a loud voice. Or else you should have left. These are behaviours that you really need to make second nature to you and both go hand in hand with abandoning the idea of being able to party while away from home. Even if the partying was as simple as having drinks. Keep the drinking to a minimum, and NO ONE comes up to your room - male, female, hermaphrodite - no one! Its easy to see this now in hindsight, but this is what you should take away from this for your personal well being as well as that of your marriage.


I still contend that this "fellow" should be tracked down and reported - for justice but also to stop it from happening to someone else. At the very least there should be a record of your report on file.


You need to discuss the affairs, the rape etc openly with your husband. Burying both of your heads in the sand will only lead to problems. He needs to be adult enough and "well" enough to do this - AS DO YOU. So you both need help with this. Get him IC and you need some too. Then look at MC.


Your affair was completely on you. The rape was just plain wrong (I know that it is easy to see the mistakes you made in hindsight leading up to it but we all make these mistakes and it doesn't give the [email protected] the right to get away with it). If it wasn't a rape, then it would be down to you too but since it was, your husband needs to accept it and act on it in the right way.


As for his affairs, he should have known better - that two wrongs do not make a right, that lowering himself to cheater did not help anyone, least of all him, that he should have been the better man etc etc. Well he wasn't and he needs to know that and accept that and that advice needs to come from a professional not you.

And neither of you has the right to continue to bash each other over this.

Open up the discussions, get the counselling and start making some progress even if it could mean that you end up apart. And if there was anyway for me (for one) to help you track down the [email protected] that raped you, you have my offer of help. Not sure what I can do though.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> My god ppl. I was only drinking with women!!!


I don't understand your story, it's so strange, so you were drinking with a bunch of women and later they came up to the room with a strange guy and pushed him in your bedroom? 

Did you know this guy? What did they say to you about that after what happened?


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

stephscarlett said:


> yep, exactly... except, I went over and over the scenario and I would have made the same decisions sober. Let them/him in and froze when he held my arms down.
> I had had 2-3 drinks over the course of 5 hours. I wasn't drunk. Maybe tipsy.




I believe you where assaulted but why in the world would you open your room door to people you just meet at a conference?

Just to let you know, I has seen women go from my husband will leave me to claiming rape. Not saying this is you but your husband might be thinking along this line.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> Ive been through this on here. He was in my friend's room partying. They knocked on my door. I saw all of them in the peephole and let them in. ONly he came in.
> They're no longer my friends and I just met them at the conference.


OP,
If the assailant was not drinking with the group then who drugged you? Are you saying that one (or more) of the women (friends) you were drinking with and this POS are working in unison to assault unsuspecting women. The woman/women drug the mark and then they approach the victim's room, as a group and only the man enters to seal the deal? As your H I would find this untenable, if not flat out unbelievable. I will leave your thread now as I am unable to draw any positive conclusions from your story. I wish you good fortune and happiness in whatever path you choose to follow.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

We did report this guy. We called the police twice. 
I had known these two gals for a week so I hadn't just meet them. 
This guy was hanging around and I did talk to him a couple times. There were about 20 girls having drinks together and he and this other guy were there on business too. We all pretty much ignored them.
As far as advice, well, every time I ask it turns into defending myself about what happened in the hotel room.
No choice - of course I see the idiocy of that logic. That's why I said it. I'm getting a lot of ppl saying that hey you did it so he gets to do it. I'm trying to point out the crazy logic of it, as if ppl are owed affairs or that I shouldn't expect fidelity now because I killed the marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> Someone asked why I had an affair. I suppose *I was hungry for emotional talk, validation* and wanted to be distracted from some issues that were going on in my life.


Without these things, I do not think you will ever be happy in your marriage, steph.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

stephscarlett said:


> We did report this guy. We called the police twice.
> I had known these two gals for a week so I hadn't just meet them.
> This guy was hanging around and I did talk to him a couple times. There were about 20 girls having drinks together and he and this other guy were there on business too. We all pretty much ignored them.
> As far as advice, well, every time I ask it turns into defending myself about what happened in the hotel room.
> No choice - of course I see the idiocy of that logic. That's why I said it. I'm getting a lot of ppl saying that hey you did it so he gets to do it. I'm trying to point out the *crazy logic* of it, as if ppl are owed affairs or that I shouldn't expect fidelity now because I killed the marriage.


OP,
It is not crazy logic it is totally lacking logic. In fact it was/is illogical for you to expect logic from your H during that time. Think back to when you committed infidelity, were you thinking logically? Did you thoroughly and carefully consider your actions or were you overcome and emotionally distraught?

To expect your H to respond logically to your infidelity was somewhat unrealistic, although it would have been logical to take a different path, his emotional response is certainly understandable. And, as I stated earlier, your epiphany came after one encounter and his, if I recall correctly, after two. Is that truly beyond your ability to accept?

You indicated 6 years since infidelity for you and 4 for your H. It does not appear that he is continuing on with his negative behavior. You indicated a 4 month period wherein both of his transgressions occurred. I do not believe that is an unreasonable period of time nor do I believe that his actions are over the top.

Also, the reason your assault keeps comming up is because it is, wether you accept it or not, pertinent. If memory serves his A did not happen until after your assault so that shows that it was a pivotal experience to him. He may not blame you for being assaulted but he most certainly has reservations regarding your "logic" during that time leading up to it.

This does not seem unreasonable based on the scenario you presented. You mentioned having to defend yourself from us regarding your story but your story does not exemplify the behavior of a woman in R but rather seems somewhat careless for any woman.

I believe I know what you want to hear from us. I believe you want reinforcement that your H is a cad and would like to form a virtual lynch mob to hang him in effigy. I cannot in good conscience go along with that. I honestly feel that your H's response was certainly within the realm of what one would expect, not necessarily what one would hope for, but certainly not without the confines of possibility given the circumstances.

So, ultimately it comes down to wether or not you can see this. I do not believe you want to and therefore no amount of explanation will suffice. It is up to you now.

I know I said I was leaving your thread but I only responded because you replied specifically to me and I would truly find it fulfilling to see you make peace with this and live out the remaining years of your life and marriage happily. I sincerely hope that you do. Good fortune.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

No choice I was talking about the logic of some of the advice on this thread.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Steph, you want to know why he got 2. Doesn't make sense does it? Why couldn't he have just "gotten even" with one? 

Think about it. He probably thought "why couldn't she just be happy with JUST me?" 

I had what equated to a one night stand. My husband then talked to his ex gf for 4 months about them having a future together (after 10 years of talking to her against my wishes anyway). I try to look at those 4 months as his revenge. He says it was. That his head was a mess. That it was a way to hurt me in return. I can accept that. But it doesn't mean I don't sit here and say "why HER? Anyone but her!" I've questioned why he couldn't have just found a different woman to start communicating with. Why it couldn't have been someone else, why did it have to be the one that would hurt me the most, the one that would be the hardest to get over. 

But the fact remains in my situation, and in yours, it HAPPENED. So what do we do now? We either accept it and move on with them or we accept it and move on without them. 

I've chosen to move on with J. I love him. He's hurt me a ton in the past. Sometimes it sucks to think that he hurt me as recently as 4 months ago. It hasn't been that long. What I did was 3 years ago, it hasn't even been half a year since he did what he did. Will it get better with time? I think so. But I need him to show me his commitment, just like I'm trying to show him mine. There are no guarantees. And that's a new thing for me. Before, I thought my marriage was guaranteed and now I don't. That causes sadness and anxiety. But I'm trying. He's trying. I wish he'd try more sometimes. But as @NoChoice and several others on my thread have commented several times, with J, I need to accept him as who he is and decide if that's enough. 

I can sit here and say "but he's not doing XYZ, and I need ABC" or I can sit here and say "but I love when he does DEF and when he does A, but he's not really good at B even though he tries" and I can be happy in those moments.

My husband isn't an affectionate guy and I'm a very affectionate woman. We have a disconnect there. This morning I was in bed and he was leaving for a golf outing. He came in and kissed me on the forehead. I PREFER lip kisses, but think forehead kisses are sweet. So I could either pout that I didn't get a lip kiss, or I could relish the sweetness of a forehead kiss. I could be irritated that he woke me up at 7:30 because I was sleeping well, or I could be thankful that after 10.5 years he still kisses me goodbye without hesitation. He came back through the house (probably forgot something) and he came back in the room. He came over and laid his upper body on top of mine and put his head on my chest for a minute or so. A body hug I suppose you could call it. J's never really done that just to say goodbye, and he's really never done it AFTER he's already kissed me goodbye. So I could be resentful that our date night got cancelled last night and jealous that he can golf today, or I can be thankful that he showed me some different affection before he left and enjoy my alone time by the pool.

It's all about what we choose to do and what we choose to be happy with. You can choose to live in the present, or dwell in the past. It's up to you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> Steph, you want to know why he got 2. Doesn't make sense does it? Why couldn't he have just "gotten even" with one?
> 
> Think about it. He probably thought "why couldn't she just be happy with JUST me?"
> 
> ...


OP,
If there were no other posts on this thread this one would suffice. If you read this until you understand it, your way forward will become clearer.


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

Losing him thank you. That's what I'm trying to do. We have a VeRY good life together. I just occasionally get stuck and overthink things. I'm a person who has to slowly let go. apparently.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Stephscarlet

How are you doing today? One day at a time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

I'm doing fairly well. It's hard to hear from some that I brought all this on myself. 
We haven't talked as he had a trigger Saturday that took us a while to get through. I wanted it to be about me helping him without my own stuff coming into it. I'm glad I did that.


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## ne9907 (Jul 17, 2013)

Why do you stay together?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

ne9907 said:


> Why do you stay together?


we love each other, are in love, have 4 kids, a strong friendship, have built a life together financially, have the same interests and hobbies and values, friends, a shared history.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> I'm doing fairly well. It's hard to hear from some that I brought all this on myself.
> We haven't talked as he had a trigger Saturday that took us a while to get through. I wanted it to be about me helping him without my own stuff coming into it. I'm glad I did that.


You did not bring it all on yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ne9907 (Jul 17, 2013)

stephscarlett said:


> we love each other, are in love, have 4 kids, a strong friendship, have built a life together financially, have the same interests and hobbies and values, friends, a shared history.


have you done counseling?


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## stephscarlett (Sep 2, 2015)

ne9907 said:


> have you done counseling?


yes.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

@stephscarlett - I just wanted you to know that I feel your pain and I hope that you and your H can figure it out over the long term. This is a tough thread to read and I hope it is actually helping you.....


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

stephscarlett said:


> we love each other, are in love, have 4 kids, a strong friendship, have built a life together financially, have the same interests and hobbies and values, friends, a shared history.


 Those are things worth fighting for. It's funny how when a person is stepping out those things seem so replaceable but then the fog clears and then you realize WTF is wrong with me. I'm about to throw away the most precious parts of my life for someone who doesn't really give a $hit about me. 

Short term sexual high for decades of the life you built. Doesn't make sense but so many throw it away and sadly are left with nothing but regret.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

you guys it's me: stephscarlett. I can't seem to log in to my old account and when it asks for an email this username is associated with my email. 

At anyrate - a couple pictures popped up on my feed of him at a breakfast yesterday. He was sitting next to a blonde, could only see the back of their heads. I asked him who it was and he told me - a friend of his I know. But, I wished he would have told me about it before he went. He usually says, "i need to get to a meeting," or, "i have to drive here today," and he KNOWS these meetings cause me anxiety because the OW are both members.. But, he said he forgot on his way to work. I said that was hard to believe. I also said you can do these things but I can't do yoga? (he doesn't want me to teach as there might be guys there) He said now you're scorekeeping. I said I wasn't. I was just trying to point this out. 
So what do we do - let each other do whatever we want, anywhere, and just hope for the best? I felt I had a reason to question who he was sitting by, and it looked like he had his arm around her chair, but I'm like whatever. 

He said he feels like he's in prison and is he supposed to tell me everything? I said no but I just want some consistency and emotional transparency. That diverged into a trust discussion and he mentioned again I broke his trust twice and I said what do you mean by that? Are you talking about what happened in (neighboring state where I was raped). He said yes, that he KNEW I was really drunk. I said I wasn't. He said I was. So anyway, I asked if he understood that it was something I didn't want. He said he knew that but that I didn't protect myself. I apologized profusely for that. That I was sorry I didn't do that and how much I hurt him by not protecting myself. He said he was also angry at himself for not going with me. I told him I was so sorry I put him in that position, the position where one hates himself, questions himself.. He said he sometimes wishes he would have left right away. He thinks he's either a fool or smart. I said I was sorry I put him in a position that he has to question that. He said I'm sure I do the same thing. I said I did. 

So to answer the questions on here - he believes I didn't have a ONS and didn't want to be with this guy - but he also thinks I was stumbling drunk. I guess there is nothing I can do to change his mind. 

so, we both had a hard night sleeping. We were quiet this am. It's father's day weekend. We plan on going to the lake after work and we both SO love that, and meeting our daughter there. 

Had I kept my mouth shut about the breakfast we wouldn't be here. Should I just assume all is good and never ask about anything?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

katies said:


> you guys it's me: stephscarlett. I can't seem to log in to my old account and when it asks for an email this username is associated with my email.
> 
> At anyrate - a couple pictures popped up on my feed of him at a breakfast yesterday. He was sitting next to a blonde, could only see the back of their heads. I asked him who it was and he told me - a friend of his I know. But, I wished he would have told me about it before he went. He usually says, "i need to get to a meeting," or, "i have to drive here today," and he KNOWS these meetings cause me anxiety because the OW are both members.. But, he said he forgot on his way to work. I said that was hard to believe. I also said you can do these things but I can't do yoga? (he doesn't want me to teach as there might be guys there) He said now you're scorekeeping. I said I wasn't. I was just trying to point this out.
> So what do we do - let each other do whatever we want, anywhere, and just hope for the best? I felt I had a reason to question who he was sitting by, and it looked like he had his arm around her chair, but I'm like whatever.
> ...


Re you been stumbling drunk... Could he have spiked your drink?

And admin can help you with getting back into your own account.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

No. You HAVE to talk. Those feelings are beliefs are there even if they're not expressed. So even though it sucks I think you have to be able to work through it.

Now you both clearly know how you feel about the rape - and you know he believes you about part of it but some of his anger is directed at himself. He needed to express that too.

It can't be all the time and it can't be never. Usually MC provides a forum, but if you guys can talk yourselves that's better.

Can you revisit this - someone gently - saying you want there to be a safe way for both of you to talk but not just argue or spiral will he be receptive? Can you create a setting or way to do this? IDK maybe a safe place or time? That way you know you will have a tune to express things and won't let them fester, but if you agree it has to be safe and not just accusations you both can maybe work on ways to talk that aren't destructive?

IDK


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

I listened to him talk. The thing of it is, I'm not sure it helps if it puts him in a funk the next day. He pulls back.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

katies said:


> I listened to him talk. The thing of it is, I'm not sure it helps if it puts him in a funk the next day. He pulls back.


I understand.

You have to be able to talk too.

Also you can't protect him from his feelings but you both need to learn to talk, let your feelings out, but keep them in check so you don't spiral. I think it will take time and practice.

Would he be receptive to it? Can you tell him your concerns and your dilemma about wanting to talk but also not wanting him to stay in the funk?

I think the feelings are strong about this stuff so it is ok to be upset if you both also work on coming back together after talking. You can't have one or the other emotionally detach after these talks - that's unhealthy.

I'm having problems on a much smaller scale with my family - boys are off to college soon and lots of stresses and nit picking among the kids but we still get along well. But the kids need to learn to express themselves and not hold things in... but also not overreact and create more issues. It's leaning healthy communication, and you never learn it if you don't confront problems.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Have you point blank asked him why you should have to have stronger boundaries then him? 

That's the part I don't see how you can work with. I really think you should give him the same boundaries he gives you. 

Start teaching yoga and tell him you're done suffering for this marriage, just like he told you. 

You guys are both guilty here but he sees himself as a victim. If you can put a stop to that you might be able to move forward.

Tell him that he got his by fvcking two other women, so he has zero claim to the emotional upper hand, which is what this is about. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> Have you point blank asked him why you should have to have stronger boundaries then him?
> 
> That's the part I don't see how you can work with. I really think you should give him the same boundaries he gives you.
> 
> ...


Or... don't say anything like this if you want to establish positive communications.

Challenging your spouse or backing them into a corner when the communication is poor will only lead to anger, resentment, retaliation, and emotional separation.

I agree with @lifeistooshort 's message but not the delivery. You both need to learn to de-escalate, not escalate things.

Here's the thing - one of you has to be "the bigger man". I see that being you. Being that one means being more strategic and taking it on the chin a bit to allow breathing room in the relationship. It DOESNT mean foregoing your rights. It does mean deferring them a bit.

Yes you should absolutely teach yoga, but yes H is right to be apprehensive. So do it in a way that supports him and makes him feel safe. Maybe start with a woman's class. Maybe talk to H about who is in the class and if there are other marriage-friendly coworkers who are there. Sometimes that's all that's needed. But being demanding will only fuel his paranoia.

You've said a lot of what you have is good. Leverage that.

You can always start to make photo books of the good memories or put up photos and rotate them. That will show you value that. Actions are gold when feelings are hurt.

Just my $.02


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> Or... don't say anything like this if you want to establish positive communications.
> 
> Challenging your spouse or backing them into a corner when the communication is poor will only lead to anger, resentment, retaliation, and emotional separation.
> 
> ...


I wasn't implying that she should start going out with men, only that she should reciprocate boundaries he's willing to enforce on himself. 

By all means discuss it but at the end of the day she shouldn't be maintaining boundaries he won't. That's part of what drives her resentment and inability to move forward. 

If he refuses boundaries he either doesn't think they're necessary, so she shouldn't have to keep them either, or he wants to maintain the emotional upper hand, which is unacceptable. 

It is in no way acceptable that she can't be around men but he can be around women, particularly in places where he met the other women and are known to frequent. He would lose his mind if she went to places where the other men were known to frequent.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

@Lifeistooshort I completely agree with you but one of the two of them has to make the first move to address the OS concerns both have. It's not going to be H.

I think she can lead by example - both in terms of talking about OS events before (which he didn't) and in talking about who else is there to basically provide some assurance there is a chaperone. Let's face it - they are both triggering and they want to know any OS risk is being thought of and their feelings about it are being thought of.

Not saying OS are involved in an event, then finding out later, erodes trust. Knowing in advance that your spouse is being vigilant, having open communications, and protecting the marriage builds trust. 

I think our girl here has to show her H how to build trust. It's not fair but I don't think H has the emotional maturity to even think this way.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

TheTruthHurts said:


> @Lifeistooshort I completely agree with you but one of the two of them has to make the first move to address the OS concerns both have. It's not going to be H.
> 
> I think she can lead by example - both in terms of talking about OS events before (which he didn't) and in talking about who else is there to basically provide some assurance there is a chaperone. Let's face it - they are both triggering and they want to know any OS risk is being thought of and their feelings about it are being thought of.
> 
> ...




If you read her other threads you'd see that she is leading by example, he's choosing not to follow. He's made clear to her that building her trust is worth no further effort.

And she's already communicated what she needs. He's not interested and won't be as long as he's allowed to keep the emotional upper hand.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

I'm not sure he thinks he has the upper hand and can do what he wants. He thinks we should be in a normal marriage and normal ppl don't ask questions about who they're with in a meeting. He would say that he's doing this for his job. I said I could say the same thing - teaching yoga is a job. 
Another thing - can we remain married if we have differing opinions on what happened the night I was raped? 
I also realize that how he reacts when we talk is on him. If he's in a funk, then that is his thing. I won't protect him. But, he might get fed up with everything and just leave, in which case it is what it is then.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

katies said:


> I'm not sure he thinks he has the upper hand and can do what he wants. He thinks we should be in a normal marriage and normal ppl don't ask questions about who they're with in a meeting. He would say that he's doing this for his job. I said I could say the same thing - teaching yoga is a job.
> Another thing - can we remain married if we have differing opinions on what happened the night I was raped?
> I also realize that how he reacts when we talk is on him. If he's in a funk, then that is his thing. I won't protect him. But, he might get fed up with everything and just leave, in which case it is what it is then.


I don't think he has a realistic view of what it takes to build trust in a marriage. I do think this is the specific point you should focus on - the issue is expectations.

IMO - if one person in a marriage needs more support for a period of time, then they should ask for it directly. As in "I realize you feel like you shouldn't have to talk to me about every work situation you are involved in that also includes OS coworkers. Right now, though, I don't feel secure in my marriage and I am asking you to support me more by communicating better in this specific area. Also - the same goes for me teaching yoga. It's something I want to do so i am planning on starting, but I'm willing to communicate better so your concerns about OS clients are also addressed."

I don't think it's pandering to say this explicitly. He may not see the connection.

The other thing is you should both talk about the fact that you both want a normal
Marriage with trust, you just have to spend a little time right now to work on your communication so that can happen.

Regarding the rape - if you can set that aside for a bit I would. It's really the same trust issue above. If you work that out then you can apply that trust work to the rape talk. If you can't work through the above stuff, there isn't much point in trying to work in the rape stuff.

My internet opinion - but I'm speculating and don't know your real life situation


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

If he wants a normal marriage then you get to teach yoga, like you said.

He gave up the right demand a normal marriage when he paid you back, but if he wants one then you get one too.

So you can't do anything where men will be present? Yet he can be around women? 

As for the night of the rape, I don't know the answer to that. I think I could accept that my hb wasn't sure if he believed me, but the paying back would be it for me. That shows vindictiveness.

The argument of not protecting oneself could be extended to all kinds of things. If he is not paying attention as he leaves the store and gets robbed do you then get to spend the same amount of money that he lost on yourself? The logic is the same. He could've done more to protect himself so the robbery is his fault, not the thief's, and secretly he must have wanted to get robbed.

See the absurdity of that line of thinking? 

We're treading on victim blaming here, and I'm not sure I could live with that. 

But I understand that you guys have a life together and it's not so easy to give up. That's why I'm suggesting you embrace the same boundaries as him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> The argument of not protecting oneself could be extended to all kinds of things. If he is not paying attention as he leaves the store and gets robbed do you then get to spend the same amount of money that he lost on yourself? The logic is the same. He could've done more to protect himself so the robbery is his fault, not the thief's, and secretly he must have wanted to get robbed.
> 
> See the absurdity of that line of thinking?


You sure do make masterful arguments, life. Just had to say that!

Back to you, steph.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

I'm still a bit confused as to the whole timeline and details. None of your past threads really detail this out well.

How long was your affair - EA leading to a PA, ONS? You did say you confessed on your own.

Then at some point later, you were assaulted - is that correct?

Then sometime later, he had two PAs? You caught them both? Has he fully come clean?

Is that the correct timeline?


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

basically, yes. my affair was about 3-4 weeks. Each of his were the same.
I can only take him at his word about coming clean about everything.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

And even if he wants to argue that you could've been more careful, paying you back is hardly an appropriate response. 

Just imagine if we all engaged in payback every time our spouse could have been more careful. 

This has been a common rape response throughout history. .... that he victim must have wanted it and did something to invite it. 

I hope he doesn't have this attitude if your daughter is raped.

No, payback is something one does in response to a deliberate act. 

So at the end of the day he thinks wanted it and you're not going to convince him you didn't. 

Maybe that's what you need to square yourself with.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

I'm sure he doesnt' think I wanted it... just that I didn't take care of myself and I allowed it to happen, which is quite different than seeking it out.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

katies said:


> basically, yes. my affair was about 3-4 weeks. Each of his were the same.
> I can only take him at his word about coming clean about everything.


Sorry to flog the horse.
His first PA was post assault?


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

larry.gray said:


> Sorry to flog the horse.
> His first PA was post assault?


yes, 6 months later. I caught him and 3 months later another affair I caught him in.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

katies said:


> yes, 6 months later. I caught him and 3 months later another affair I caught him in.


well the good news is that he's bad at hiding affairs. (In bad taste, I know..)

I'd suspect he.got caught on purpose if he got caught quickly both times. It makes it believeable that they really were for revenge.

The timing makes it impossible to tell what each was in revenge for.

You opened this thread about how you are feeling that he's got the upper position in the score-keeping. Is that really your big hangup? Or is not accepting the facts around your assault?

If it is score-keeping, consider this: he can never equal your offense. Revenge affairs don't break a marriage's fidelity. You broke that, not him. You cheated on a loyal spouse. He did not.

That doesn't mean you give a free pass... or two... or three. Revenge affairs don't fix things, as you have found out. I don't say this to excuse him, but to perhaps alter your mindset. You have three choices,accept it, cheat trying to baliance it back, or divorce. (Hint, don't try #2...)


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> If he wants a normal marriage then you get to teach yoga, like you said.
> 
> He gave up the right demand a normal marriage when he paid you back, but if he wants one then you get one too.
> 
> ...


The ideal would be for them to agree to equal boundaries.

The must is that each should be doing what the other needs to be secure. If she feels safe that he's loyal then it can be OK to stay where they are. He clearly feels less safe.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

larry.gray said:


> The ideal would be for them to agree to equal boundaries.
> 
> The must is that each should be doing what the other needs to be secure. If she feels safe that he's loyal then it can be OK to stay where they are. He clearly feels less safe.


She doesn't feel safe, that's why she's here. 

And he's refusing to give her what she does need to feel safe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

larry.gray said:


> well the good news is that he's bad at hiding affairs. (In bad taste, I know..)
> 
> I'd suspect he.got caught on purpose if he got caught quickly both times. It makes it believeable that they really were for revenge.
> 
> ...



I think this thread has discussed all that ad nauseum.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

I took a break because I tend to frustrate you and others in your threads. I was going to post this earlier, but wanted to see how much more you posted.

Honestly, why are you still with this guy?

I'm going to be blunt. Many of your interactions on this board make me believe 100% you were raped. All of his actions show he doesn't believe you. Yes, everything you post just reinforces it to me. No, I don't care if he helped you report it. His weird rules about reconciliation, boundaries, control and his lack of trust make me believe he thinks you had another affair. IMO, he tells you what you need to hear to make you stay. I'm not in his head so, I can't provide reasons. Personally, from what I've experienced, know and have read you are being punished for the cops not prosecuting the guy. This is why victims are scared to report and keep rapes a secret.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

blueinbr said:


> There is a recent thread discussing marriage deal breakers. Add this one to the list:
> 
> Husband not believing his wife about a rape so he goes out and has an affair to "even" the score. Deal breaker.


I thought OP said H told her he did believe her in a recent discussion but had complex feelings about his own reaction to her A and him staying, and her vigilance in maintaining OS boundaries after her A. Both seem legitimate IMO.

I think he's conflicted and hates that she got raped and is letting his hurt and anger and emotional ignorance muddle the conversation.

Both of you are hurting. So you'll either be able to start communicating better and work through this, or one of you will give up. And I don't think either will be easy so it just kind of sucks.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

I can understand his point of view about the boundaries. I can see that myself. And I'm not being hard on you Steph. I came with boundary issues myself that I'm still figuring out. 

BUT the past is the past. You can't change your soft boundaries from the past, you can (and sounds like are) changing them now. 

It still doesn't negate the fact that you were raped and NOTHING excuses that. So IMO he can be as upset as he wants to be that you had soft boundaries, but he needs to let the rape part of it go and see your current boundaries.

Unfortunately, I think that's what all of this is. Boundary issues. You're trying to walk the straight and narrow, while also trying to reconcile why you had your own affair, your assault, his two affairs and what you now consider to be boundary issues. 

Your husband seems to grasp boundaries about as well as mine. I can see on my husbands phone that over the last two days he's been chatting with a girl on Facebook. Thing is, she's smokin f*ckin hot, has a great body (she's a personal trainer), young.....and single. I know damn well he's attracted to her. Hell, if I were so inclined Id jump the fence myself, she's that hot. Thing is, she has a Great Dane. We just got a Great Dane. They're discussing....Great Danes. She's helping him with details on the breed, what food to feed, medical issues, etc. We also have English bulldogs and I've shared Fb messages with male friends asking advice on the breed as well. The difference is, since my infidelity, I have cut that kind of contact to the bare minimum. He has not, even though he's had fidelity issues as well. I could argue he's crossing the boundary, or I can trust his word. The messages are above board. But you can bet I'm watching.

So, was this lunch above board? Is the woman above board? Is it worth you being upset? Is it worth causing strife if you have no other indicator (like I also do not) that it's nothing but innocent?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

Everything is above board. But I wish for consistency. He tells me where he's off to or if he's traveling every day. He knows these chamber meetings make me anxious. Just TELL me about it first. This is like when he went up the Expo 2 months ago, where he met OW2 4 years ago He had no clue this would bother me. Or didn't care. He told me AFTER the fact. Things he tells me before, I'm doing fine with that.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

What truth hurts said is probably true.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

katies said:


> What truth hurts said is probably true.


Then YOU have to stop with the 2 vs 1. I don't agree with truthhurts at all, but you are living this issue.


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## katies (May 19, 2015)

What do you believe Philly? That I wanted it?


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