# Opinions wanted on kissing



## alwaystrying123 (May 17, 2012)

Hello All,
Please be patient, as I have never been here before or have every reached out on an online board.  But... I am in need of others views on this.
Background: Married 20 years. Half have been rough, but always came through it with a smile and a great sense of pride. Now, I have found out that 6 yrs ago my husband kiseed "passionately" at least one woman. He swears that is all it was (that's enough for me to feel like hiding under a rock)... 
He went to another country for a sporting event (with my excitement). Well, it seems that when he got there, his ring came off and he was a "single man". Please know... there was no one he knew from the states there. He went to be a part of the celebration. 
While there was alchohol involved, his initial removal of his ring was done sober. Anyways he kissed someone else and spent the day with her celebrating. 
I know everyone has a story and we all are caught off gueard, but I have never worried about my husband with someone else. NEVER. All was good back then and he says he just did something stupid. I don't like the "planning" of taking that ring off... so it did not "just" happen. 
I know there are many women/men who are suffering terribly and have been treated so poorly... but I can't seem to get this out of my mind and can't see me ever happy with him again. Needless to say, it's all so raw. Should it matter that it was 6 years ago. He seemes to think so. He is is remorseful, but I don't believe it. We were seperated 8 years ago and worked very hard to get our family back. I thought never again, until this. 
Am I making to much out of this? He has no reason except that he was stupid and sorry. I want a reason so i can fix it. Obviously my self esteem is non-existant now. Thank you for you patience and advise.


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## sunshinetoday (Mar 7, 2012)

Did you just find out? Also I'm sorry to be blunt, but he was out of the country, drinking, and he said they just kissed? Doubtful. 

I understand you not being able to get over it, some people never can, and some spouses don't help the betrayed spouse get over it by their actions, lack of transparancy...ect.

_-- Sent from my Palm Pixi using Forums_


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## TorontoBoyWest (May 1, 2012)

I don't necesssarily believe you are making too much of the event, but I do wonder when you heard about it? Sorry that is not clear to me...

Second, I think you are having an issue putting two and two together when it comes to your H taking off his ring sober and yet saying his make out session with OW was a drunk mistake.

I agree with you. Those two thoughts cannot co-exist. You are right to question the validity of his assertation.

IMO where there is smoke there is fire....

I think you agree that there just might be more to this then meets the eye, and I think if it is keeping you up at nights, you need to get too the bottom of it.


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## alwaystrying123 (May 17, 2012)

Thank you for replying so quickly Sunshinetoday  Yes, I found out on Saturday. Came across photos on a camera card. Nothing bad... but enough to start inquiring. I know this is weak, but I wish I never had found them. I'm heartbroken. Went to see a therapist today and she said that if he had no "reason" then maybe it was just a mistake. Can it really be so simple? A mistake? 
He says how sorry he is and that he made a "stupid move". It was planned in my eyes. He wanted to be free. sigh...


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

Everyone reacts differently to these things. What's a big deal for one person, might not be for another, and vice versa.

I understand how you feel. 

You had complete trust. 

It was deliberate on his part. 

You will never know the truth unless he tells you (maybe if you polygraph, but even that result might be questionable).

Even if it was just a kiss, you don't know if he would have taken it further if he had the chance.

Better that it was six years ago than six hours ago, but it hurts nevertheless, and it's still new to you.

I doubt it had anything to do with you. If it did, you would have known he was unhappy with you. He may have done it just for his own enjoyment because it was available to him and he didn't feel like saying no. I think most men are wired differently than most women in that the cheating is just for extra sex, variety, with no emotional attachment, while most women seem to do it for the emotional attachment.

Tell your husband if he wants you to get over it, to stop minimizing it. He should just be contrite and apologize his butt off, acknowledge it's all his fault and you have every right to be extremely upset, despite if it was just a kiss and it was six years ago.


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## TorontoBoyWest (May 1, 2012)

alwaystrying123 said:


> Thank you for replying so quickly Sunshinetoday  Yes, I found out on Saturday. Came across photos on a camera card. Nothing bad... but enough to start inquiring. I know this is weak, but I wish I never had found them. I'm heartbroken. Went to see a therapist today and she said that if he had no "reason" then maybe it was just a mistake. Can it really be so simple? A mistake?
> He says how sorry he is and that he made a "stupid move". It was planned in my eyes. He wanted to be free. sigh...


The old saw here is that affairs are not mistakes, they are choices.

Writing down 2 for the answer to 5+1 is a mistake.

Taking your ring off and then drunkenly making out with a woman not your wife is a choice.

The difference is nite and day.


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## sunshinetoday (Mar 7, 2012)

Well I do believe an other wise good guy can be out far away from home with other guys, drinking and play the single fool. But to cross the line & kiss, and take pics and keep them for 6 years?? Yes you have the right to be devastated!! I would treat this as if you did catch him in an affair and pls read up on this site about doing the 180 on him. I'm glad you are getting IC. Good luck!

_-- Sent from my Palm Pixi using Forums_


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## alwaystrying123 (May 17, 2012)

Thank you TorontoBoyWest.
I found out on Saturday. This has turned my world upside down. I know it was 6 years ago, but it is Saturday to me... Hoping to finally get some sleep tonight. This heart needs some major help, because I feel crazy. I hope the therapist will help, atleast to help me feel better about myself. I can see by this forum that i'm not alone and that helps me feel a little connected. Thank you


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

alwaystrying123 said:


> Thank you for replying so quickly Sunshinetoday  Yes, I found out on Saturday. Came across photos on a camera card. Nothing bad... but enough to start inquiring. I know this is weak, but I wish I never had found them. I'm heartbroken. Went to see a therapist today and she said that if he had no "reason" then maybe it was just a mistake. Can it really be so simple? A mistake?
> He says how sorry he is and that he made a "stupid move". It was planned in my eyes. He wanted to be free. sigh...


Married to you for 20 years and wanted to be free - for a day? Yes, it was a stupid move, but I believe that your marriage is solid. He had a moment of utter stupidity. He forgot you. He wanted to be free - in the moment. If that was the only time he removed his ring with the intent to be free, then I would say you have nothing to worry about. He did a bad thing, but he is human. Unless you find that things went further than the kissing, I say give him heck, then let it go.

I wish you the best.


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## TorontoBoyWest (May 1, 2012)

alwaystrying123 said:


> Thank you TorontoBoyWest.
> I found out on Saturday. This has turned my world upside down. I know it was 6 years ago, but it is Saturday to me... Hoping to finally get some sleep tonight. This heart needs some major help, because I feel crazy. I hope the therapist will help, atleast to help me feel better about myself. I can see by this forum that i'm not alone and that helps me feel a little connected. Thank you


I am sorry you are here. TAM is a great resource and has a great collection of characters that can help you thru this. Also it is great to see that you are going to IC.

I agree with Sunshine. You need to read the newbie guide and institute what you feel is appropriate to your healing.

And remember, this is about your healing, not his. Do not let your feelings be rugswept. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/32002-welcome-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html#post430739


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## alwaystrying123 (May 17, 2012)

@willkane and sunshine today.. thank you so much 
Something about just validating that maybe I am normal does wonders for me tonight. Why didn't I find this on Saturday? No one to talk to... because I don't want anyone to know... ashamed, embarrased, protective of him (i know, crazy).
Will - the counselor said that same thing to me about men and women being wired so differently. It would just be so much easier if I had a reason... then try and work on that. His word is of no use to me at least now. That is so strange to type. I'm by no means the perfect wife, but I always allowed him to enjoy his passions... one being soccer  Never thought he would be the looker either. I've always worried that someone else would be the instigator if this ever happened to us. Foolish thinking I guess, Thank you all so much


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## alwaystrying123 (May 17, 2012)

Thank you again and again! TorontoBoyWest... thank you for the link. Like I said, I'm totally out of my area here, but you all made me feel unashamed and welcomed. I hope to me a little "more me" in the upcoming days to make a smart move, because right now I feel like a doormat and that isn't helping anyone. Oh... and my kids  They think I just havent felt well for 6 days lol.


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## TorontoBoyWest (May 1, 2012)

alwaystrying123 said:


> Thank you again and again! TorontoBoyWest... thank you for the link. Like I said, I'm totally out of my area here, but you all made me feel unashamed and welcomed. I hope to me a little "more me" in the upcoming days to make a smart move, because right now I feel like a doormat and that isn't helping anyone. Oh... and my kids  They think I just havent felt well for 6 days lol.


If you believe you have been a doormat then you need this.

The Healing Heart: The 180

The 180 can be used as a healing tool. Some think it is a tool to reel back in a WS but the reality is that it is for you. To cope and to heal and to grow.


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Sorry your husband betrayed you like this,

Now, before all my research and converstaions with other BSs, I would never make the following remark: There is very little chance he is telling you the truth about how far it went. And, there is very little chance this was his only rodeo.
The vast majority of affairs go undetected forever.It is highly unlikely that you just happened to discover his only one.
So, how to get the truth. Polygraph is an excellent start. His reaction to your requiring it will tell you volumes. And, even if he initially acts willing to take one, follow through.
many cheaters bank on the betrayed perceiving their willingness as an indication that following through is unneccessary. I can't tell you how many parking lot confessions i have seen described when the BS insists on following through with the test.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

BigLiam said:


> there is very little chance this was his only rodeo.


This was my reaction as well. Why did he tell you about this one incident? Because you found some photos that made you suspicious? What made you ask questions when you saw the photos--is the woman in the photos? Is his ring off in the photos?

I am sorry you are here, and you should do your very best to stop feeling any shame. YOU didn't do anything wrong. HE did. He not only didn't make a mistake--he made a deliberate choice--but his stupid choice is no reflection on you.

You may also feel somewhat stupid. That is how just about every loyal spouse feels when discovering that their partner betrayed the marriage and crossed boundaries to engage in inappropriate behavior. You feel like a fool, that you trusted them so completely, and that they could do something so hurtful, and you might have never found out. What you are feeling is totally normal.


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## alwaystrying123 (May 17, 2012)

Thank you all again 
Iheartlife - There were women (beautiful, young,) in the pictures with him drinking. I just started saying there is something wrong here, after i noticed no ring... 
I can't see how I can "forgive" and write it off to a dumb choice. Hopefully, in time that could happen? That's what I hear anyways. He's usually so logical in everything else. I know, I really need some self-esteem help. This is NOT me


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## BigLiam (May 2, 2012)

Mention the polygraph. You are an intelligent woman. Watch his reaction, body language etc. 
Your h is not who you think he is. I guarranty you.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

I'm guessing he went to the World Cup.Lots of booze,partying,adrenaline,and people doing stuff they don't normally do.In some ways similar to Mardi Gras,but with more of a frenzy.You can make bad choices in those circumstances,but that doesn't absolve you of them,especially if you're taking your ring off to appear single.That's simply premeditated and you have every right to know why.This wasn't your fault and the only shame felt should be coming from your husband.There is an old poem that says something like.....if you can keep your head while others around you are losing theirs,then you'll be a man my son...Obviously at that time and in that place he wasn't the man you trusted him to be.Do what you need to do to set your mind at ease.Hope things work out and it's good you have someone to counsel you and you're not just sweeping it under the rug.Take care.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

alwaystrying123 said:


> I can't see how I can "forgive" and write it off to a dumb choice. Hopefully, in time that could happen? That's what I hear anyways. He's usually so logical in everything else. I know, I really need some self-esteem help. This is NOT me


Well, you're wise not to forgive, and write it off as a dumb choice. One mistake people often make upon discovering betrayal in the marriage is to forgive up front. But what are you forgiving, precisely?

Here is the issue. It may be that all he did was kiss. But you were not there. He was in a foreign country with people he presumably would never meet again. He chose to take off his ring and party with women. It isn't uncommon--sadly--for cheaters to say they did X, when they really did Y.

Do you sense that there is more to this story than he is letting on?

The other issue is, why did he do it that one time--and never before, or since? He did admit to choosing to take off his ring--that is something. Many cheaters would have invented a reason for why the ring was off (such as, I didn't want to lose it).

When you think back--does he travel often? Has he taken any more trips anywhere without you? Does he go out with male friends frequently?

This is what bothers me about his story. The reason I asked about what was specifically in the pictures--is that he admitted to taking off the ring because you could see for yourself that he wasn't wearing it. In other words, he has admitted to this because you caught him.


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## Fvstringpicker (Mar 11, 2012)

I understand the 6 year old event feel like it happen yesterday. Tell me AT, how have things been tween ya'll the last 5 years.


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## alwaystrying123 (May 17, 2012)

Thank you all... Here I sit again, although sleep was a bit better... thank goodness.
BigLiam... I will definately be mentioning that when I can do it more "controlled" I long to make some sense when we talk, and I just don't through all the tears. I hope this ends soon for me... 

TBT... thank you for all you wrote. That premeditation think just kills it. I could work with the "emotional hype" of the WC, especially with him  The desicion to take off that ring stings worse than anything else.

Iheartlife - honestly, I have no clue what he actually did. If given the opportunity there, he could have done more, I think... but this is all based on the situation now. I truly thought we were solid, although it is hard to remember 6 yrs agolol. Our kids were in elementary and JR high. Now my daughter is almost out of college. I just can't seem to think rational at all, but you all are giving so much to think about and also helping me see that it might not be my fault. I just don't understand how it even happened. He has asked that we go to counceling together for this (for me he said).. hmmm. But I just may take him up on that. Many years ago we did that and it did wonders for us I thought back then. Also, yes many business trips but that was in the beginning of our marriage. I don't think anything happened then. He plays his soccer and will have a drink after at a pub, with our friends then straight home. That's it for the bar scene. Thought I knew him so well!

Fvstringpicker - They have been good, I thought. He says the same and keeps saying it had nothing to do with me. Ughhhh why can't I believe that?? There had to be something right? Even if it was him... I could try and try to understand, but I just get "I was stupid and i'm sorry".


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## alwaystrying123 (May 17, 2012)

@TorontoBoyWest - thank you for the The Healing Heart: The 180. I think I may work on this, not for him but me.  

@SurvivorWife - Thank you, I so want to hear that there may be a glimpse of hope. Thank you


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

I doubt that your H took his ring off just to kiss another woman, and pretty deceitful and calculating of him to mislead the OW, anyway - to say nothing of him choosing to betray you.

If the marriage is otherwise good, it might be an idea to find a way to move beyond this (perhaps with counselling). However, if you think he's cheated on you throughout your marriage this might prove difficult.


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## alwaystrying123 (May 17, 2012)

Hi Cosmos,
He sure didn't want any of these strangers to know that he was married... and I come to only one conclusion with his "wants". That maybe didn't work out for him (i truly hope not). Makes me want to puke 
I do not think he has cheated throughout our marriage. My gut just tells me no, although who would have thought this? right? 
Feelling a bit stronger after reading so much here. No tears so far today  
Counselling for the both of us though. I refuse now to be the only one trying to fix this in therapy. Thank you so much!


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## Sara8 (May 2, 2012)

I haven't read all the posts, but I seriously doubt he only kissed her.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Sara8 said:


> I haven't read all the posts, but I seriously doubt he only kissed her.


I think it's possible, but it probably doesn't matter. Whatever they did was most likely based on what she would let him do. 

Counseling is important, but seek out someone experienced in infidelity, they have seen it all. The last thing you want is a MC who wants to gloss over this incident and minimize it. This is known as rug-sweeping and it doesn't get to the heart of the issue, which is a conscious choice to betray the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SkyIsBlue (Mar 5, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> I think it's possible, but it probably doesn't matter. Whatever they did was most likely based on what she would let him do.
> 
> Counseling is important, but seek out someone experienced in infidelity, they have seen it all. The last thing you want is a MC who wants to gloss over this incident and minimize it. This is known as rug-sweeping and it doesn't get to the heart of the issue, which is a conscious choice to betray the marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I've seen enough threads here to have doubts, but I can tell you that it is quite possible kissing is as far as to went. I was able to verify on my own that my wife never did more than kiss the OM at the culmination of an EA. Some things were hidden and some details were left out, but I know it didn't escalate any farther.

More importantly than the possibilities though--unless he chooses to tell you, you will probably never know the full extent. I know it feels to you like it just happened, but now is a good time to look back on the last six years and decide how happy they were. If you hadn't found out about this, how would you feel about your marriage right now?

Your husband has had six years to figure out how he feels about what he did, so hopefully he can be reasonable with you as you do the same.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

alwaystrying123~

If you just found out last Saturday, then for you it just occurred this Saturday--even though chronologically it occurred years ago. Before that you were building a marriage and a relationship with someone without having all the facts available in order to make an informed decision. Now all the building that was done over the past years has been UNDONE, because the foundation it was built on is untrue...not there. You thought you were building intimacy with a faithful, dedicated, honest partner and you were actually building with someone who was willing to choose to be unfaithful and then lie to you about it to cover it up for years!! That makes a BIG difference!!

Now, during the past years he may have regretted what he did and he may have been acting in a faithful and honest way since then...so in making your decision you may want to consider his actions in the past years. Yes it does show some of his character that he made the decision to do this AND to cover it up...but yes his actions over the years do also show some character. Don't forget them.

And finally, I am disappointed to say that I had an affair myself several years ago, and one of the questions that almost every loyal spouse I know asks is "Why?" "Why did you DO THAT!!??" Right? Here's what happens though. Almost every disloyal spouse I know would answer that with "I don't know"--because there are things going on--psychological things--that they may not even be aware of consciously and it takes some pretty serious thinking to figure it out. In my instance, my Dear Hubby is 5 years older than I; we had a miscarriage and then after various testing discovered we could have no more kids. Well, he is the kind of man who "shuts down" in his grief and sort of thinks it through until he has figured it out. I "reach out" and when he wasn't there it felt like rejection to me. Then to be blunt I thought our sex-life would be over and I was young yet and didn't want it to be over! So now I know that a portion of my affair was to not be rejected and a portion was to prove to myself I was young and desirable--not an old prune. But as it was occurring, I did not realize that was "why" I was doing it and could never have verbalized what was going on inside me. It probably took a year of thinking about it and getting my own head thinking clearly etc. just to figure it out. 

Sooooo...my guess is that if you ask your husband "Why did you DO THAT?" right now...his answer will be "I don't know." He has been avoiding it for years, pretending it didn't happen! However, I do think that the counseling will be a good idea because it will help him stop avoiding it and think about what it was inside him that set it off...and it will help him to understand what you are going through and why. 

Overall I think you are completely "normal", your reaction is 100% understandable, and you are heading in a really good direction!


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## alwaystrying123 (May 17, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> I think it's possible, but it probably doesn't matter. Whatever they did was most likely based on what she would let him do.
> 
> Counseling is important, but seek out someone experienced in infidelity, they have seen it all. The last thing you want is a MC who wants to gloss over this incident and minimize it. This is known as rug-sweeping and it doesn't get to the heart of the issue, which is a conscious choice to betray the marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Iiheartlife - 
You know, I really don't care what he did at this point. Kissing is enough to break me.. I do care about exposure though... so a DR is a good idea for me. Thanks< I will definately confirm on her specialty. That would be a waste.


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## alwaystrying123 (May 17, 2012)

SkyIsBlue said:


> I've seen enough threads here to have doubts, but I can tell you that it is quite possible kissing is as far as to went. I was able to verify on my own that my wife never did more than kiss the OM at the culmination of an EA. Some things were hidden and some details were left out, but I know it didn't escalate any farther.
> 
> More importantly than the possibilities though--unless he chooses to tell you, you will probably never know the full extent. I know it feels to you like it just happened, but now is a good time to look back on the last six years and decide how happy they were. If you hadn't found out about this, how would you feel about your marriage right now?
> 
> Your husband has had six years to figure out how he feels about what he did, so hopefully he can be reasonable with you as you do the same.


Skyisblue -
I'm thinking the same thing. I've had so many posts that it must have been more. I know, deep in my heart that if he could take off the ring and kiss someone else... he probably would have had sex. I just hope not. 
We had 6 years of a decent marriage. No big issues and never a worry of this. I love him very much. I've spent so much of my life with him and ... EH... feeling ill again! I swear this is so aweful!!


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

I know my soon to be ex would commonly remove her rings while traveling for fear of theft or loss. And on occasion, while traveling to high risk places (i.e. Brazil or Columbia) I would take off my ring and wear a timex watch. Although I don't want to excuse your husband, the removing of jewelry doesn't necessarily imply premeditation......


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

KanDo said:


> I know my soon to be ex would commonly remove her rings while traveling for fear of theft or loss. And on occasion, while traveling to high risk places (i.e. Brazil or Columbia) I would take off my ring and wear a timex watch. Although I don't want to excuse your husband, the removing of jewelry doesn't necessarily imply premeditation......


Me too--I don't take my nice jewelry when travelling.

But I thought that he told her he took it off to go have fun, and not for some other innocent reason.

That is the heart of the whole thing. It's not the kissing. It's the conscious choice to betray the marriage and taking affirmative steps to do so to the extent possible at the time. That is a betrayal--you don't need anything more.


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## alwaystrying123 (May 17, 2012)

Affaircare said:


> alwaystrying123~
> 
> If you just found out last Saturday, then for you it just occurred this Saturday--even though chronologically it occurred years ago. Before that you were building a marriage and a relationship with someone without having all the facts available in order to make an informed decision. Now all the building that was done over the past years has been UNDONE, because the foundation it was built on is untrue...not there. You thought you were building intimacy with a faithful, dedicated, honest partner and you were actually building with someone who was willing to choose to be unfaithful and then lie to you about it to cover it up for years!! That makes a BIG difference!!
> 
> ...


Thank you affaircare...
I'm glad you posted. You reminded me of a very special trip we took 3 months after this had happened. It was my favorite getaway with him. Not only fun, but I thought it was intensly emotional. A song lyric just popped into my head "wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then". We just had what I thought to be a good, connected, marriage especially after our near divorce... 7ish years ago. Wow
Anyways, thank you...i'm really trying to be a little normail in MY head


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## alwaystrying123 (May 17, 2012)

KanDo said:


> I know my soon to be ex would commonly remove her rings while traveling for fear of theft or loss. And on occasion, while traveling to high risk places (i.e. Brazil or Columbia) I would take off my ring and wear a timex watch. Although I don't want to excuse your husband, the removing of jewelry doesn't necessarily imply premeditation......


Kando -
Thank you for replying. Unfortunately not for mine. He said he took it off  He sure did keep his gold cross on though... sigh, SMH


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## Sweet Tea (May 4, 2012)

I would think, if you wanted to leave your wedding ring behind so it doesn't get stolen, you would take it off at home, tell your wife why and leave it there. Not take it off when you get to your destination. It would seem to me it would have a better chance of getting stolen or lost off the finger :scratchhead:

For me, the fact that the ring came off as soon as the plane took off would bother the living snot out of me.


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## alwaystrying123 (May 17, 2012)

iheartlife said:


> Me too--I don't take my nice jewelry when travelling.
> 
> But I thought that he told her he took it off to go have fun, and not for some other innocent reason.
> 
> That is the heart of the whole thing. It's not the kissing. It's the conscious choice to betray the marriage and taking affirmative steps to do so to the extent possible at the time. That is a betrayal--you don't need anything more.


Exactly iheartlife... He did. Very painful


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## Aristotle (Apr 4, 2012)

If they say they talked on phone, they had phone sex. 
If they say they kissed, they had sex. 
If he admits to sex once, they've had sex a lot, so much so he admitted to it once.


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