# sex twice a month if i am lucky



## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

i have been married for nearly 19 years, i am 44 and my wife is 40, we have two wonderful daughters, for the last 18 months i have tried everything to try and get my wife interested, my wife does not like going out for a drink and if i suggest going for a meal she wont go without our daughters, i cook romantic meals, i have had to ask for affection, when we do have sex i would say 60% of the time it is a major chore for her, i am not allowed to initiate sex as she covers up and stops me and immediately goes to sleep, i have to wait for her to start it, i have tried to talk to her about it but whenever i do she says she never knew there was a problem, we might have sex an extra once in a month and then back to the normal once or twice a month, my wife has called me a dirty old man if i try and do it more, it is allways on her terms, i have thought of leaving but i couldnt bear leaving my two beautiful daughters, fed up! had enough! and dont know which way to turn,


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## jeepgal (Apr 19, 2012)

Why do men want to leave when the sex starts to slow down? Twice a month with your wife, with whom you have made vows to love honor through good and bad, or divorce her and be single and only have sex sporadically throughout the year when you're lucky enough to get a date?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

jeepgal said:


> Why do men want to leave when the sex starts to slow down? Twice a month with your wife, with whom you have made vows to love honor through good and bad, or divorce her and be single and only have sex sporadically throughout the year when you're lucky enough to get a date?


If sex is that un-important to a woman, why does she care if he sleeps with someone else? After all, it's just sex. It obviously has nothing to do with building and maintaining a strong emotional connection...

C


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

there is nothing i wouldnt do for my wife, and i do everything for my wife, i love her with all my heart but is marraige not about give and take!


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

jeepgal said:


> Why do men want to leave when the sex starts to slow down? Twice a month with your wife, with whom you have made vows to love honor through good and bad, or divorce her and be single and only have sex sporadically throughout the year when you're lucky enough to get a date?


Hey Jeep, there ain't no Wizard and this isn't Oz:rofl:


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

PJP:

This is a wildly common scenario. Read through the posts in this section of TAM (if you haven't already) and see how much company you have - lots!

I would read the "Man Up" sticky in the Men's Clubhouse and see if any light bulbs go off for you.

Take the "nice guy" test on the "No More Mr. Nice Guy" website and see if any light bulbs go off. If they do, buy the book and do the work - fantastic stuff.

Check out Athol Kay's Married Man Sex Life blog.



pjp said:


> my wife has called me a dirty old man if i try and do it more, it is allways on her terms, i have thought of leaving but i couldnt bear leaving my two beautiful daughters, fed up! had enough! and dont know which way to turn,


Sounds like your wife has sexual hangups. You sound like a nice guy and that could be part of your problem as well. 

This problem isn't about sex, it is fundamental to your relationship. Please reread that sentence, again and again.

Forget about sex for the time being and concentrate on fixing yourself. It will be a lot of hard work, but the payoff is huge. Your life, including your sexuality, will fall into place in ways you likely can not imagine.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Jeep,

Part of the vows that is understood is that the two will not persue relations with others outside the marriage. I'm willing to bet the OP will tell us (if we ask) that he and his wife had sex like mad before they married.

Sure, you can tone down the frequency a bit and contribute it to age, raising children and work schedules but only 2x a month? Ridiculous!

PJP, does your wife work outside the home? Did you have a more frequent sex life two years ago? Did anything change? Has your physical appearance changed?

You're not alone! I struggle with wanting a more active sex life too. I am a little better off than you since we average almost 1x week but my goal would be 2x a week

BTW, if you google the term "sexless marriage" I think you'l find that your frequency puts you in this category.

Time to open up the communication lines and get talking. Think about counseling because this isn't going to get better on its own.

Others will jump in and give you solid advice about how to stop doing everthing for your wife and start doing for yourself (TallaverageGuy, where are you?). Basically. stop being a doormat and smoothering her with affection and kindness.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

one of the problems is that my wife does not come any where near me any other time, we had a great sex life a number of years ago, i have also asked her to go to counceling but the answer was "not in her lifetime", other than our sexlife we are very happy together


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## jeepgal (Apr 19, 2012)

I'm not trying to put the blame on you, pjp but I know from my own experience that there are times when I just don't have any desire for sex with my h. Usually it's because he has done something to upset me and it's hard to be sexual with someone who has pissed you off.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

i do more than my fair share of housework, looking after our daughters, cooking, and renovations to the house, the twice a month if i am lucky is supposed to be my wife trying her best to help the situation


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

jeepgal said:


> Why do men want to leave when the sex starts to slow down? Twice a month with your wife, with whom you have made vows to love honor through good and bad, or divorce her and be single and only have sex sporadically throughout the year when you're lucky enough to get a date?


Have you looked at the number of posts in this forum *by women *with the exact same issue?


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

toffer, my wife works in a office and both of us hav'nt changed much since we met, i would say we are both 3 or 4 kilo heavier but other than that the only difference is my chioce of clothes is much improved,


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## Cupcake37 (Nov 19, 2011)

Twice a month....count yourself lucky, I have had sex with my husband twice this year! 

Sorry I wish I could wave a magic wand and make it better but to be honest I have given up.There are only so many times that you can be rejetced before it slowly starts to destroy you. Have you tried talking to you wife and telling her how you feel? Perhaps you could try and reach a compromise of say 1 per week?

Good luck


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

a magic wand would be pretty good! i bagree the rejection destroys your soul, over the last 18 months i have tried on numerous occasions and my wife says everytime that she thought we were ok and happy, then nothing changes, even if we were to do it more the problem there would be over half the time i know and feel its not what she wants, knowing that your wife can do without you in the bedroom is quite soul destroying also.


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## Cupcake37 (Nov 19, 2011)

Then she obviously knows you are not happy and o.k with the situation. Have you been specific and told her you want more sex? 

I know what you mean about nothing changes. I feel as if things slowly improve then quite quickly slip back to normal. I feel as if I am begging him for sex and it has reached a stage where he has hurt me so much, I don't really want him anywhere near me anymore. You don't really want to do it with somebody who is doing it just to shut you up do you? I don't think he has any concept of how hurtful his rejections have been to me. If it was the otherway around I could never reject him night after night after night. I find it really hard how a husband or wife can do this to their respective partners, somebody who they are suppose to love and cherish, and not care or realise the impact of their actions.

I am sorry I haven't been much help but you are not alone, take care


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Cupcake37 said:


> I know what you mean about nothing changes. I feel as if things slowly improve then quite quickly slip back to normal.


Folks, everyone seems to be missing the point that this isn't about sex, it is about dysfunctional relationships. 

Keep focusing on the sex and nothing will improve. 

Fix yourselves, put up proper boundaries and you will have something - if there is something in your relationship to have. Otherwise, you will feel fine moving on and developing a healthy relationship with a new person.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

pjp said:


> ...when we do have sex i would say 60% of the time it is a major chore for her, i am not allowed to initiate sex as she covers up and stops me and immediately goes to sleep, i have to wait for her to start it ...it is always on her terms,


After I read and re-read your post, the key terms to me seem to be that you are _not allowed to initiate_ and that it's _always on her terms_.

This to me, seems a one-sided situation that you need to very gently and lovingly explore. A relationship by all terms should be a partnership, not a dictatorship. If satisfying these physical urges are that important, this is where I would begin a discussion that is goal oriented.


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## Shiksa (Mar 2, 2012)

have you told your wife everything that you have written here? Really tell her how it makes you feel? I was in a sexless marriage for many years (we are talking years without sex) It finally came to a head about 6 months ago and laying it all out to my husband has made a world of difference. We went from sexless to WOW! I think communicating how I truly felt and how hurt I was and the damaging it was doing made the difference for us. I was always afraid of hurting my husband who I love dearly and have been married to for 18 years.

Maybe your wife will be like me. After 40 my sex drive started to really get going (which made it doubly hard being sexless) but I'm really enjoying it now!


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

jeepgal said:


> Why do men want to leave when the sex starts to slow down? Twice a month with your wife, with whom you have made vows to love honor through good and bad, or divorce her and be single and only have sex sporadically throughout the year when you're lucky enough to get a date?


the same reason many women leave when their emotional needs arn't being met!


as a single man I had far more sex than a married man.not all women are sexuall repressed.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

thanks for all your comments, i have asked for it a few more times and told her that i am not happy but like you say nothing ever changes, also having sex with someone who does not is not good sex, it might sound a bit wimpy but the emotional side of her rejecting me is also destroying my confidence.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

pjp said:


> one of the problems is that my wife does not come any where near me any other time, we had a great sex life a number of years ago, i have also asked her to go to counceling but the answer was "not in her lifetime", other than our sexlife we are very happy together


Hi pjp ~

Have you ever considered to just go on your own to counseling - maybe to explore why you think it's okay to have to put a bushel basket over your sexuality in deference to hers?

It sounds like there are any number of issues going on ... perhaps inhibitions and resentments on her side ... perhaps some libido-busting behaviours (e.g., repeatedly asking is often a huge turn-off to women) that need to be worked on your side.

But, you can start with yourself. Work on the issues that you know that you have, on the things that you know that you can improve. If you've gained some weight, then start a plan to lose it. If you've lost touch with some parts of yourself over the years, consider ways that you can get some of that back. Build up confidence in yourself, and your wife may start to take notice.

Best wishes.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

i dont have to ask her for sex as if i touch her in any way i either get a look or she makes it plain to me its a no go, everyone we know think we have the perfect marraige


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## Kathrynthegreat (Apr 23, 2012)

pjp I don't have any words of wisdom but I'll be following your posts closely as I could be your wife. We have been fighting this for 10 years and are now seriously examining if we have anything else to try or if we should just let it go. I wish I had something to tell you but I don't. 

In my case, I love my husband but have my own hangups about sex that cause me to not like being touched. I hate seeing what it does to him.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

i dont doubt it can be upsetting for both husband and wife but according to my wife she has no problems with sex or inibitions, if my wife had any problems i would support her every way i could and would even say we didnt have to have sex at all,


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## isla~mama (Feb 1, 2012)

jeepgal said:


> Why do men want to leave when the sex starts to slow down? Twice a month with your wife, with whom you have made vows to love honor through good and bad, or divorce her and be single and only have sex sporadically throughout the year when you're lucky enough to get a date?


That's not a fair way to approach it at all. If you make a vow of marriage it's also a vow to keep your partner sexually satisfied. You shouldn't marry someone to trap them into celibacy or near celibacy. The reason men talk about leaving is because sexual frustration and being a refused spouse are both very painful and not what they bargained for when they entered into a marriage.

It's also not fair to refuse a spouse sex because you're angry about something. That's manipulative and cruel.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Jeep,

Just for comparison purposes, how mant times a month would you say that you and your husband are intimate?

I understand that at times you don't want to be intimate with him for the stated reasons but what about a time period where you weren't pis*ed off too much?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

pjp,

You obviously need to stop what you're doing now. It's not working. Talking to your wife obviously doesn't help either. She will give you enough sex to shut you up, and then slip right back into her preferred schedule.

The best, and slowest option, is to improve yourself in order to attract her. That means a long-term personality change for you. You need to do some serious self-examination and figure out what your wife likes about you and what she doesn't. And don't ask your wife. If she's polite, she won't tell you what she doesn't like. And there's a good chance that she honestly doesn't know what she likes and doesn't. Go by her actions. Was there a time when she jumped your bones? What did you do to bring that on? Any times she seemed particularly turned off? What did you do?

As a general rule, I bet you're too passive and too beta. You need to ramp up your alpha qualities and be more assertive. That will take weeks, months, perhaps even a couple of years. But that's the best way to get your wife sexually interested in you. Or, worst case scenario, some other woman interested in you.

The faster way is to stop meeting your wife's needs. If you're going above and beyond so that she is happy. But, she's not willing to make you happy, then stop making her happy. And be upfront about it. If she asks why you've stopped meeting her needs, tell her you're not willing to put more effort into the marriage than she is anymore. You want a balanced marriage where each partner contributes equally to meeting the other's needs. And your primary need is sex. If that's your choice, run the 180.

Good luck.

The Healing Heart: The 180


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

pjp

You need to ask yourself if this is what you want for the rest of your life.

I know you have a kid or two but at some point you need to decide if this is really living

As I've said before, I am somewhat in your shows except that our love life averages a little under 1x a week. We done the reading, seen a counselor, filled out the worksheets and things got better.....for a while.

Right now is her busy season so I'm putting the last talk off until sometime in June. During that time I'm going to tell her that if she doesn't make a consistent effort from that point forward, I'm done. 

The sad part of it is that other than this, I truly think she's almost perfect. I just oftebn feel that I am not the first priority in her emotional life (but she'd argue the point that she irons for me, makes healthy meals etc. which is true, but so did my mother!)

Nice guy/doormat hasn't worked for you. Time to stop that and go strong. Start going out with friends and having a good time. Be mysterious about who and where. make her realize that life will go along without her

Last but not least, I think you may need to use the D word. However, don't use this threat unless you've come to the point where you will actually go down this path if things don't change. If you use this threat and things get better for a while and then backslide and you don't start proceedings, you've lost your power base. Remember, you can always file for divorce and then stop it at any point!

So what's it going to be? Another 2 years of wankering off in the shower or growing a pair?


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> The faster way is to stop meeting your wife's needs. If you're going above and beyond so that she is happy. But, she's not willing to make you happy, then stop making her happy. And be upfront about it. If she asks why you've stopped meeting her needs, tell her you're not willing to put more effort into the marriage than she is anymore. You want a balanced marriage where each partner contributes equally to meeting the other's needs. And your primary need is sex. If that's your choice, run the 180.
> 
> Good luck.
> 
> The Healing Heart: The 180


I agree with this, though I would not use the 180 so much as turning down the thermostat. Take care of yourself, be polite and nice, but get some distance. work on yourslef, have some fun, go work out, hang with your friends. Do less for her. If she asks why you are so distant, calmly explain that because she is not interested in meeting your needs, you have to do it now and have less time to focus on her. Don't be mean or snarky, but you do need to perfectly clear that this a result of her not investing in you and the marriage. 

You need to align your actions with your words. To give you a personal example, I like to eat pork for dinner. I order it when we go out to eat, I mention it all the time as a meal suggestion, and those few times I cook, pork is usually part of the meal. My wife, on the other hand hates it. Despite knowing my preference on this, we rarely have it. Why? Because despite my talk, it is not that big of a deal. My actions toward her remain the same, and my wife follows my actions as opposed to my words. Now, if it were an issue that is a big deal, I would align my actions and my words.

On a side note, many women instinctively do this with sex. If they are upset or their man is not meeting their needs, sex dries up. A woman may still have sex, but they won't initiate, they will put it off, and they won't be as excited when they do have it. These women are communicating that there is a problem through their actions.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

thanks there are some very good points there, maybe i have been pampering to her needs all our marraige, not maybe i know i have, i think i need to grow some balls and a backbone, the only problem with that is the worst i ever get is slightly sarcastic, it would be hard to be like that after 20 years of being quite soft.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree with this, though I would not use the 180 so much as turning down the thermostat. Take care of yourself, be polite and nice, but get some distance. work on yourslef, have some fun, go work out, hang with your friends. Do less for her. If she asks why you are so distant, calmly explain that because she is not interested in meeting your needs, you have to do it now and have less time to focus on her. Don't be mean or snarky, but you do need to perfectly clear that this a result of her not investing in you and the marriage.
> 
> You need to align your actions with your words. To give you a personal example, I like to eat pork for dinner. I order it when we go out to eat, I mention it all the time as a meal suggestion, and those few times I cook, pork is usually part of the meal. My wife, on the other hand hates it. Despite knowing my preference on this, we rarely have it. Why? Because despite my talk, it is not that big of a deal. My actions toward her remain the same, and my wife follows my actions as opposed to my words. Now, if it were an issue that is a big deal, I would align my actions and my words.
> 
> On a side note, many women instinctively do this with sex. If they are upset or their man is not meeting their needs, sex dries up. A woman may still have sex, but they won't initiate, they will put it off, and they won't be as excited when they do have it. These women are communicating that there is a problem through their actions.


Yeah when the difference is huge in sex drives, I'm not convinced either that turned down the thermometer is a good idea.

I agree with the previous couple of posts, really take the 180 to heart. Do it because it's what's best for you.

It will keep you from focusing on what's missing in your sex life, because odds are you think about the problem waaaaaay more than she does.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

i am at the stage of even if she is up for it i wont bother, its my birthday sunday and all of the family will be round, as my wife likes everyone to think we are very happy, oh i forgot she is!


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## jeepgal (Apr 19, 2012)

isla~mama said:


> That's not a fair way to approach it at all. If you make a vow of marriage it's also a vow to keep your partner sexually satisfied. You shouldn't marry someone to trap them into celibacy or near celibacy. The reason men talk about leaving is because sexual frustration and being a refused spouse are both very painful and not what they bargained for when they entered into a marriage.
> 
> It's also not fair to refuse a spouse sex because you're angry about something. That's manipulative and cruel.



I don't think it's manipulative and cruel, I think it's a natural reaction. I was speaking from personal experience and wanted to give the op a possible reason why his wife wasn't willing to have sex with him more often. Maybe he has done or said something that has caused her to be angry?


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## jeepgal (Apr 19, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Jeep,
> 
> Just for comparison purposes, how mant times a month would you say that you and your husband are intimate?
> 
> I understand that at times you don't want to be intimate with him for the stated reasons but what about a time period where you weren't pis*ed off too much?


We are only intimate sporadically. We will have sex once a day for a month and then go two months without it. But we have a lot of issues.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

jeepgal said:


> I don't think it's manipulative and cruel, I think it's a natural reaction. I was speaking from personal experience and wanted to give the op a possible reason why his wife wasn't willing to have sex with him more often. Maybe he has done or said something that has caused her to be angry?


I agree that it is a natural reaction. It's also cruel.

Sexual rejection, to a man, is about as personal and vulnerable as it gets. Let's try this thought experiment. You and your husband get into an argument over whatever. It's not a huge thing, but you're both upset. Because your husband is upset, he tells you that he finds you disgusting. It's natural that he lashed out at you because he was upset with you. But, I would consider that cruel. There are few, if any, things that he could tell you that would hurt you that much.

That's kind of how sustained sexual rejection is for a man. If you have a problem with your husband, deal with it outside the bedroom. If it invades your bedroom, try to make it as short-term a problem as possible. Because using resentment as an excuse to deny your husband sex is cruel.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

any way even if we do have sex she wont let me kiss her properly, she just puckers her lips an keeps her mouth shut, i am so very fed up and pissed off, but i still love her dearly,


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

pjp said:


> any way even if we do have sex she wont let me kiss her properly, she just puckers her lips an keeps her mouth shut, i am so very fed up and pissed off, but i still love her dearly,


That's a lack of attraction. She not that into you. Your best bet is self-improvement until she finds you attractive.

Read Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits. for some great tips.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

jeepgal said:


> Why do men want to leave when the sex starts to slow down? Twice a month with your wife, with whom you have made vows to love honor through good and bad, or divorce her and be single and only have sex sporadically throughout the year when you're lucky enough to get a date?


If your husband selfishlessly kept 98% of his pay for himself, sharing only 2% with you and the kids, you'd be content to abide by your vows? If he refused to go to work on the days you didn't meet 100% of his expectations, that would be ok with you? I fulfill my obligations to my wife and family every day, regardless of how I feel. I truck off to both jobs regardless of what the weather is like, regardless of how I feel, whether she plays the part of dutiful wife or hateful bat. Like most men, I've arranged it so her needs will be tended to long after I'm worm food. I don't expect her to freeze or roast her fanny off for 16 hours a day. I don't expect her to be shot at or assaulted. I would like maybe one sandwich a day and some sort of sexual contact twice a week. Both of those requests are apparently outrageously over the top. I don't like rejection any more than my wife does and she wouldn't tolerate being turned away weeks and months on end if the shoe were on the other foot.


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## Just Wondering (Dec 20, 2011)

Hey these are great post guy's.When you said she won't even kiss you.I had to laugh. What to hell is that all about.Thinking back a few yrs. ago thats when it all started lack of kisses during sex.That was the starting point to sexless marriage.You get a peck in the mourning and one at night.WTF.And why is that peck so important to them.Offen my wife says don't I get a kiss good bye.Where's the importance to that peck.So many of us just don't get the real problem is they have a lack of attraction to us.All the BS about kids and work and stress is BS.If you left them the new guy would be getting every night.BJ's as well.


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## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

jeepgal said:


> Why do men want to leave when the sex starts to slow down? Twice a month with your wife, with whom you have made vows to love honor through good and bad, or divorce her and be single and only have sex sporadically throughout the year when you're lucky enough to get a date?


This isn't a gender issue it's a sex drive issue.

I'm a woman and I'd would be very upset if I was only having sex twice a month... I want sex more than twice a week so 2x a month would leave me feeling very dissatisfied and unloved.

Part of our marriage vows state we are to forsake all others...not many people would be agreeing to marrying if they realised that meant a sexless or near sexless life.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

Mistys dad said:


> Have you looked at the number of posts in this forum *by women *with the exact same issue?


agreed it's an obvious problem for older people sex 2 times a month is okay or fine or normal. Heck some people have low drives but what is a problem is that his wife is unwilling to talk about it, does not care about his feelings and is not really at all interested in romantic time with her husband or being alone at dinner without the daughters.

That is a problem i would not blame him for wanting to leave and find happiness elsewhere. I just hope he does not cheat on her.


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## humanbecoming (Mar 14, 2012)

pjp said:


> there is nothing i wouldnt do for my wife, and i do everything for my wife, i love her with all my heart but is marraige not about give and take!


It is absolutely....

You give, they take, take, take!


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

i would never cheat on my wife, but i realy dont see anything working as we have had many discusions over this with the same outcome


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

OP,
Your frustration is easily read, and I feel for you. It's hurtful, and very difficult to not take it personally (because it is personal)

As a woman, my perspective is different. Although I understand being denied sex, as I was for a long time, to the point now where we are getting divorced and I no longer love my H or find him attractive.

You are ripe for the same resentment, and I can say that it is a terrible thing to carry around with you. Consider forgiving your wife for not treating you well. 

Having done that, how can you show her it's safe to love you again in a way that you feel loved?

If she won't participate in counselling, do what you can on your own. Read some books together, or alone. His Needs, Her Needs. The Five Love Languages. No More Mr. Nice Guy. The Married Man's Sex Life. 

Get a little busier with your own life. Learn to love yourself again, so that the sting of not getting affirmation of love from another person is so harsh. find your passions in life. Hobbies school sports etc. Be willing to take a hard look at yourself. How do you treat others? Are you open to showing love or closed?

Be a leader. Take charge a little more around the house. And with your wife. Make sure there are opportunities for you two to have alone time. Go out on dates. Think back to when you were dating. 
Dance with your wife in the kitchen. Bend her over and give her a passionate kiss. Shock the heck out of her. In other words, show her how you want her to respond to you, and what is acceptable. 

Not showing you love isn't acceptable. But you can choose to feel sorry for yourself, or you can choose to not take it lying down. Good luck to you, and I do hope your wife finds a way to get over her resentments.


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## Browncoat (Mar 25, 2012)

pjp said:


> i would never cheat on my wife, but i realy dont see anything working as we have had many discusions over this with the same outcome


I've been there, have the t-shirt. Talking is wonderful, until you've talked everything to death. To the point where you don't even have to finish a train of thought you just start it, give your wife a nod and she already knows the next 2-3 paragraphs that you were going to say.

What you need is hope (that things will/can get better), and a reason to have hope. I'd recommend finding a good sex therapist (they also deal with marriage issues in general, not just sexual issues).

You need to let her know that the situation, as is, is breaking your heart and you need help. Let her know you are by her side through all of this, but it can't continue.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

pjp said:


> i would never cheat on my wife, but i realy dont see anything working as we have had many discusions over this with the same outcome


That's why action is necessary. You have asked your wife to change and she has declined. So now, the ball is in your court. If you want your relationship to change, you have to change yourself. If you change, it's possible that your wife will change in response. That's really your only option.

You already know how your wife responds to you the way you are. She doesn't want sex and doesn't even want to kiss you. That's awful. So you've got to change in order to break the current stalemate.


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## trey69 (Dec 29, 2010)

I didn't read all the replies so if its already been said, I apologize. BUT, has she been to see her doctor lately? Maybe she needs to be checked to rule out anything medically. Is she on BC, is she on any other meds that could contribute to her sex drive being lowered? Could be hormones wouldn't hurt for her to get checked out if she hasn't already.


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## CallaLily (Jan 13, 2011)

If you are 100% sure she has no resentments towards you over anything , if you're sure shes not having an affair, etc, then yes, she needs to be checked out by her medical doctor. You would be surprised at the number of women who actually have lost their sex drive due to hormone issues or some other kind of medical reason they may not know about unless they are checked out thoroughly.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Jeep,

You said "We are only intimate sporadically. We will have sex once a day for a month and then go two months without it. But we have a lot of issues"

That's quite a swing! But depending on the ups and downs of your frequency, how many times would you say you average? I am also curious to know who's idea the dry spells are and who's idea the busy months are?

I ask because of your original reply (and I know you took a lot of sh*t for it) but it would help to know where you're coming from
"


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## Jamison (Feb 10, 2011)

I know you're upset and frustrated, BUT don't stroke out just yet until you know exactly what may or may not be going on with her.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

jeepgal said:


> Why do men want to leave when the sex starts to slow down?


A short answer would be: For the same reason you might consider leaving your spouse if they were unfaithful to you.

A longer answer would be: Vows of exclusivity carry _concomitant obligation_ as an ethical corollary. If, for example, our spouse made a vow to only ever eat food that we personally prepared and that vow was a precondition of marriage to us, a subsequent refusal on our part to feed them would be a repudiation of that obligation and by extension, a breach of the marriage covenant itself. 

Most marriage ceremonies involve a a vow of sexual exclusivity, because marriage is inherently a sexual arrangement. We don't get that level of commitment from another human being for free. I realize it's horribly unromantic and a real mood killer to spell it out in quasi-legal terms, but there it is. 




jeepgal said:


> ....you have made vows to love honor through good and bad..


--Are those vows _carte blanche _for us? I'm in a different boat than a lot of the men here because my wife's need went absolutely through the roof when she hit menopause. (Didn't see that coming.) 

I can easily think of other decades in our marriage when this would have been far more convenient for me, but needs in a relationship seem to get defined by the person who is _in need_.


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## crazygir1 (Apr 26, 2012)

PJP - I am sorry for your situation. My husband & I have similar frequency or lack of sex and I would like your opinion. No one I know is going through this so they can not relate. I have never been a very sexual person and it actually broke us up before. When we got back together he made the decision and took the responsibility to be the sexual aggressor and was ok with that - so he said. He decided a few months ago that he couldn't handle that anymore and stopped initiating it. About a month ago I came to him and said I wanted to work on our marriage and fix things and fix me. I have started counseling and even tried to get in a clinical study for decreased libido. Once I told him I wanted to fix things he got really mad and now he won't even touch me at all and it's like we are roommates and he won't sleep in bed with me. I tried to initiate but he pulls away and says no and he goes out drinking and stays overnight at his friends at least twice a week. We have 2 small children and I am constantly making excuses for him to them. I want to work on things but he wants things to stay like this until he decides what he wants. Do you have any suggestions or insight? Why now that I want to fix things would he pull away even more?


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

crazy,

You and your husband are in desperate need of counseling to try and fix this. Ask him to go for your child's sake if he won't do it for you.

I would have to guess that he's highly renetful for the way he feels he's been treated. I know the feeling but not to that degree. I just finished going almost 4 weeks without contact with my wife physically because I felt I was done. I was tired of being the intiator and tired of feeling like she would only be with me because she thought she had to, not because she wanted me like I do her.

Even men want to feel desired and pursued every now and then. Especially in a long term relation, we need to feel it to

I know that at times I feel that my wife is just checking off the chore list with me. She nows how I feel about all this yet not much changes.

Good luck getting him to respond. In the meanwhile, keep going down the path to discover what your intinacy issues are. That way you'll be prepared to handle whatever life throws at you now or in the future


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

crazygir1, i feel for you as i dont see that you could do much more, i would be chuffed to bits if my wife would anything to help, i would love to give advice but i dont know what i am doing or can do myself, i got home last night and gave my daughters a kiss goodnight then went back downstairs and my wife accused me of being aggresive and that maybe i shouldnt come home if i was in a mood, i have never been aggresive to my wife, she is just making things up as she goes along now, as for getting my wife medicaly tested she went due to a headache and the doc gave her a full body and bloods check, the results were that she is fighting fit in every way,


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

pjp,

Sorry man. That really sucks


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## jeepgal (Apr 19, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Jeep,
> 
> You said "We are only intimate sporadically. We will have sex once a day for a month and then go two months without it. But we have a lot of issues"
> 
> ...


The dry spells tend to be my idea as well as the busy months. I honestly think it has to do with my hormone levels fluctuating like someone mentioned above. And it would kill me if my husband decided to leave me based on that alone. After reading this forum over the past few days, I will say I think I have been naive to how important sex on a regular basis is.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Jeep,

That's an important ephinany you've just had! Now the important thing to do is act on it. The main issue in my marriage is that while my wife has also had this dawn on her in the last year or so, after numerous discussions, work books, etc, little has changed. It does improve for a while but then she backslides. 

Have you been to a doctor to get your hormone levels checked? Are you on birth control? BC can have a real negative affect on your drive.

Have you and your husband talked about this issue? With this awakening of yours, it might be a good time to do so. As a matter of fact, my wife was the one who originally brought this up when she had come across some articles and then saw something on TV. Alas, it hasn't turned out as well as I had hoped 

Part of the talk with your husband should honestly be how many times a week would he want sex and how many times a week would you want to (or be willing to?). Compromise! 

A man wants to be wanted by his wife. We want to feel like you guys want to jump our bones as much as we want to jump yours! We don't expect this every day or even every weekend but once or twice a month would do wonders for our oh so fragile egos.

Read some more in this forum and it may give you an even better background about how men connect to their wives emotionally (sex) and women connect to their men (emotuionally) before they want to be intimate. It seems like a catch 22! Men want sex to feel close to their wifes and women want the emotional part first, before sex! Talk abou a cruel joke from mother nature!

If men don't get sex, they can't provide that emotional bond women need. If women don't get the emotional bond first, they don't want sex! It's the typical chicken and the egg question. Which comes first?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

jeepgal said:


> The dry spells tend to be my idea as well as the busy months. I honestly think it has to do with my hormone levels fluctuating like someone mentioned above. And it would kill me if my husband decided to leave me based on that alone. After reading this forum over the past few days, I will say I think I have been naive to how important sex on a regular basis is.


The bad news is that, if you're the one driving your sex life, it could be because your husband is afraid, or tired, of rejection. The good news is that you don't seem to have prolonged periods without sex. So, during a slow month, your husband can be fairly confident that a good month isn't far away. More good news is that you're getting an idea of what your husband's views on sex probably are. Knowledge is always a good thing.

Good luck.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

thanks for everyones input, i have tried to talk to my wife again, it did not go well, she says i am making far too much of it, wont even consider any sort of therapy


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## LadyFrog (Feb 27, 2012)

jeepgal said:


> Why do men want to leave when the sex starts to slow down? Twice a month with your wife, with whom you have made vows to love honor through good and bad, or divorce her and be single and only have sex sporadically throughout the year when you're lucky enough to get a date?



You serious, jeepgal? Why do men want to leave?

For most men twice a month sex is like walking around with a semi-dormant volcano that could erupt at any time in their pants.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

pjp,

What is the next step in your mind?

I think you need to ask yourself if you can see yourself living the rest of your life like this....a marriage in name only


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

pjp said:


> thanks for everyones input, i have tried to talk to my wife again, it did not go well, she says i am making far too much of it, wont even consider any sort of therapy


If you're still talking, then you haven't learned anything. Spend some time studying the resources that we have recommended. Then start acting. Acting is the only way you will change your wife's opinion of you.

No man, in the history of the world, has ever debated his way into a woman's bed. Your wife isn't sexually attracted to you. In order to get her to want to sleep with you, you have to change yourself so that she finds you sexually attractive.

Good luck.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

pjp said:


> thanks for everyones input, i have tried to talk to my wife again, it did not go well, she says i am making far too much of it, wont even consider any sort of therapy


Hi pjp ~

I think that the cold hard reality is that these situations are not primarily helped by just talking ... you cannot talk her in to changing...you cannot talk her into feeling desire.

You need to follow up the talking with some kind of action. You've been given some good advice previously on the kinds of actions that you can try.

Don't sit around and wait for her to change...because she likely won't change unless she absolutely has to. Instead, take some action and start to work on yourself in areas that you need to improve (even considering going to counseling on your own if need be). You won't be sorry that you did. 

Best wishes.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

i dont know what to do next even with all the good advice, i thought when i got married it was for the rest of my life, i am so gutted and dissapointed i really dont know what to do, i know when we go to bed tonight i am not going to let her lay her head on my chest so she can go to sleep, she is going to get a cold shoulder and thats it, like you say the time for talking is done, i will try to grow some proper balls, wish me luck i think i will need it!


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Your next step should be to read. Start reading No More Mister Nice Guy, Hold On to Your Nuts, and Married Man Sex Life. Take the lessons to heart and start to act accordingly.

Good luck.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

jeepgal said:


> The dry spells tend to be my idea as well as the busy months. I honestly think it has to do with my hormone levels fluctuating like someone mentioned above. And it would kill me if my husband decided to leave me based on that alone. After reading this forum over the past few days, I will say I think I have been naive to how important sex on a regular basis is.


Jeep - it is awesome that you would say that - that you can be open minded and realize that people interpret things differently and people's needs are different.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

pjp said:


> i dont know what to do next even with all the good advice, i thought when i got married it was for the rest of my life, i am so gutted and dissapointed i really dont know what to do, i know when we go to bed tonight i am not going to let her lay her head on my chest so she can go to sleep, she is going to get a cold shoulder and thats it, like you say the time for talking is done, i will try to grow some proper balls, wish me luck i think i will need it!


pjp - I am in the same boat. Do not know what the solution is. But acting bitter and resentful won't help (e.g., not letting her sleep on your chest - for me it's my shoulder). Try going to bed later than her, and just watch a ball game or read. Do something alone, say "I just feel like doing this, I'll be in when I am done". Don't be bitter, it isn't good for you.

My focus right now is accepting what I have and trying to be happy for everything else in my life. Being an independent happy person. The more independent I am, the happier I am, the easier it will be to tell her to get lost if it comes to it - she'll be shocked, she's happy with her life.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

pjp said:


> i dont know what to do next even with all the good advice, i thought when i got married it was for the rest of my life, i am so gutted and dissapointed i really dont know what to do, i know when we go to bed tonight i am not going to let her lay her head on my chest so she can go to sleep, she is going to get a cold shoulder and thats it, like you say the time for talking is done, i will try to grow some proper balls, wish me luck i think i will need it!


So much good advice in this thread!! Adding to that, I would encourage you to start your focus on the problem that is very basic, and fundamental, and go from there. Your wife, the woman you have committed the rest of your life to, will not even allow you to kiss her with a real kiss. This is simply staggering, in my opinion. When you are dealing with the complex issue of the sexual relationship, breaking it down to one of the core problems around intimacy, like not kissing, touching intimately, etc, gives you an area that you can begin with her mindset change. If she changes her skewed belief on basic intimacy, you have an opening to real change.

But, you have to be confident in your belief that basic intimacy is so obviously necessary in a marriage that your wife is being rediculously absurd in trying to convey that the two of you have a good marriage. Sorry, you two have an agreement among two friends, where you fulfill her biological urge twice a month to give her a fix. Not a marriage. Why even cater to her childish attempt to pretend that you have this ideal marriage?

With 100% confidence that intimacy is a foundational necessity in marriage, you can begin to work to become the man you envision yourself to be in the future - a man who is happy, confident, and part of a great marriage. If you begin to do the basics suggested here, like getting in shape, exploring new interests, and living a life outside the home that shows that you are arriving at this goal, it will become more obvious to your wife that she needs to join this new vision, or risk being severed from it. Just my opinion. Focus on these positives that you can do within yourself. Never pretend that the marriage is better than it is. You can do this while still being positive, and avoiding passive aggressive behaviors.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

If I ever get divorced and remarried there will be no vow to forsake all others. The most I'd be willing to give the next time around is a right of first refusal.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

i have had another talk with my wife and she is quite happy for us to have a marraige without sex and as far as she is concerned there is nothing more to be said or done on the subject, to top it all its my birthday today and all of her family are coming round ( about 15 of them), i hate to say it but i do not feel like greeting her family with a smile and pretending i am a happy jolly person as i am not either of them at the moment,


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

pjp said:


> i have had another talk with my wife and she is quite happy for us to have a marraige without sex and as far as she is concerned there is nothing more to be said or done on the subject, to top it all its my birthday today and all of her family are coming round ( about 15 of them), i hate to say it but i do not feel like greeting her family with a smile and pretending i am a happy jolly person as i am not either of them at the moment,


Happy Birthday PJP - mine too. Us Tauri are good eggs but sometimes we are bulls in a china shop!

Now, you did not respond to either of my original comments while everyone went off on tactics to fix this problem. For convenience, I reposted my second comment below (with a bold for emphasis - I am a Taurus after all).




FormerNiceGuy said:


> Folks, everyone seems to be missing the point that this isn't about sex, it is about dysfunctional relationships.
> *
> Keep focusing on the sex and nothing will improve.*
> 
> Fix yourselves, put up proper boundaries and you will have something - if there is something in your relationship to have. Otherwise, you will feel fine moving on and developing a healthy relationship with a new person.


Understanding this is the best birthday gift in the world. 

Hang in there!


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

pjp said:


> i have had another talk with my wife and she is quite happy for us to have a marraige without sex and as far as she is concerned there is nothing more to be said or done on the subject, to top it all its my birthday today and all of her family are coming round ( about 15 of them), i hate to say it but i do not feel like greeting her family with a smile and pretending i am a happy jolly person as i am not either of them at the moment,


When will men learn (it took me a long time to) 

Stop talking about it, don't even mention it to her, it's pointless she does not think it's a problem (and to her it's not) The only thing I would say to her is something I think MEM posted in the clubhouse quoting someone else "Your Sex life might be over but mine certainley is not" and leave it at that 

I am in a similar position, but further along the path, turn the thermostat right down, if your not physically fit start working out, work on yourself start to become the best you can be, the ice soon starts to melt when they realise what is happening! It's no quick fix it requires patience. 

Also visit the No more Mrs Nice Guy Forum as well! Some great stuff on there


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

Bluemoon1 said:


> I am in a similar position, but further along the path, turn the thermostat right down, if your not physically fit start working out, work on yourself start to become the best you can be, the ice soon starts to melt when they realise what is happening! It's no quick fix it requires patience.


'

+1 on Bluemoon1's comment with a caveat.

There is one acceptable reason to fix yourself and one only - for you. Everything else is outside of your control. Focus on you.


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

all of my wifes relatives are here, i am really having a problem with being this happy chappy that i am supposed to be, having to smile and joke with everyone when inside i am so very gutted and upset at the situation underneath, i think i am going to struggle big time with this no sex, intimacy and her complete lack of desire, i will focus on myself and my two daughters but evertime i look at my wife her attitude is allways there, i think if the atmosphere continues it is going to affect our daughters,


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## Bluemoon1 (Mar 29, 2012)

pjp said:


> all of my wifes relatives are here, i am really having a problem with being this happy chappy that i am supposed to be, having to smile and joke with everyone when inside i am so very gutted and upset at the situation underneath, i think i am going to struggle big time with this no sex, intimacy and her complete lack of desire, i will focus on myself and my two daughters but evertime i look at my wife her attitude is allways there, i think if the atmosphere continues it is going to affect our daughters,


It's quite hard at first, but what alternative do you have? You have tried everything else, the things that well meaning (mostly women) tell you to do (Talk about it etc).

A great thing I learnt on here and other forums was that when a partner rejects the other, it is just the same as cheating, it's a betrayal of the other partner! 

Your wife, my wife and thousands more have betrayed us, it did not help that we made matters worse, by doing things we thought would work being nice, doing covert deals, creeping about so as not to upset them just in case, passive aggression when I look back at the things I used to do I cringe. 

The whole thing might come crashing down on you, but do you want to go on living like this? 

My relationship with my wife is getting better (although she is confused) and the signs so far are very good, but more importantly I feel much better about myself, I have reclaimed my dignity and independence and that is a great feeling, and if at the end of this she still does not want me so be it, there are plenty of fish in the sea


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

jeepgal said:


> Why do men want to leave when the sex starts to slow down? Twice a month with your wife, with whom you have made vows to love honor through good and bad, or divorce her and be single and only have sex sporadically throughout the year when you're lucky enough to get a date?


Ummm:

1) To have the possibility of finding someone who desires him more?

2) To get away from the mismatch in effort (since it's doubtful that she is happy with him mailing it in once or twice a month)?

3) Because such blatant disrespect wears at someone until you realize it's better to be alone than badly matched up?

I haven't had any in a while and I'm still much happier single than getting it sporadically from my ex. When it happens it is with someone who genuinely wants to be with me. I'm not pulling the dead weight of someone who only wants the advantages of marriage and not a true partnership.

ETA: Who says that the OP (or any man) could not do better single? You are perpetuating the self-limiting process known as scarcity thinking. You are presuming he is undesireable and could not do better, while knowing little about him. BTW, I'm having less because I choose to focus on other aspects of life. I have ladies clearly and openly express a desire to provide for me on an ongoing basis. So, I'm not dreaming.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

jeepgal said:


> I'm not trying to put the blame on you, pjp but I know from my own experience that there are times when I just don't have any desire for sex with my h. Usually it's because he has done something to upset me and it's hard to be sexual with someone who has pissed you off.


Okay, so there it is. Sex is not part of the committment, but rather something you dole out as a reward when he's pushed the right buttons and made you all warm and gushy inside.

But if he does something to displease you (even accidentally) or takes something back for himself, then he's out of luck? Sounds like a real partnership to me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

1. She doesn't LIKE sex with you, if she did she would not have said she is happy to have none
2. I have yet to hear you describe what you have done to find out WHY she doesn't want to have sex
3. It is obvious though that she doesn't really respect you. I am going to guess, that if I were able to watch 2-3 days of interaction between you I would pick up on a bunch of subtle but pronounced stuff she does that is not respectful. And you either don't recognize it, or you do but believe it isn't "worth fighting over". 

These are two completely, radically different conversations:

Husband talking: I am really frustrated about our sex life, it seems like you don't really want to be intimate with me very much anymore and that really bothers me. Followed by long, tiresome monologue about how bad he feels. 

What the wife hears: Me, me, me, me, memememememe

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
This is the alternative convo:

Husband: OK, so I am slow but I finally get it. You don't like having sex with me. I accept that you don't like it. Now I need you to tell me what to do differently so you do like it. 

Wife: Changing the subject. Or worse, getting angry and defensive.

Husband: (calm tone) Relax, this isn't about you. It's about me. Your behavior is rational. You are avoiding something you dislike. I think the reason you dislike it is a mix of things in and out the bedroom. I can guess about the stuff "outside" the bedroom. 
- I am too nice, to "sweet", to soft
- I show too much "soft" emotion and not enough edge
You perceive this kindness as weakness. 

In bed - I don't know. Its your turn to talk now. That is unless you wish to have the "other" conversation. 

Waits for wife to speak: 




pjp said:


> i have had another talk with my wife and she is quite happy for us to have a marraige without sex and as far as she is concerned there is nothing more to be said or done on the subject, to top it all its my birthday today and all of her family are coming round ( about 15 of them), i hate to say it but i do not feel like greeting her family with a smile and pretending i am a happy jolly person as i am not either of them at the moment,


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

pjp said:


> i dont doubt it can be upsetting for both husband and wife but according to my wife she has no problems with sex or inibitions, if my wife had any problems i would support her every way i could and would even say we didnt have to have sex at all,


Well of course she is going to say the problem is you and not her.

The first thing you need to understand is that she is getting something out of the marriage, or she would have left. She avoids sex so she's not in it for the oneness. Your telling of your strengths as a husband says much about why she is there.

Next, recall that she said she will not go tocounseling. We know that regular, satisfying sex is a typical expectation of marriage; so, saying "you'll get very little sex from me" is likely to drive away a potential spouse. In an ideal world, your wife would be honest and work towards a mutually acceptable solution. Here, because she refuses help, admitting she has a problem would be shooting herself in the foot. How likely are you to stay with someone who admits you are being used for her own ends?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

DTO,
I agree with all of this. Refusing to:
- Resolve the issue AND
- Refusing counseling 
means that he isn't important. And this is not a case of her "not understanding sex is important to him". He is asking for counseling. She knows it is important. And yes she realizes her behavior is terrible which is why she wants to stay away from counselors. 




DTO said:


> Well of course she is going to say the problem is you and not her.
> 
> The first thing you need to understand is that she is getting something out of the marriage, or she would have left. She avoids sex so she's not in it for the oneness. Your telling of your strengths as a husband says much about why she is there.
> 
> Next, recall that she said she will not go tocounseling. We know that regular, satisfying sex is a typical expectation of marriage; so, saying "you'll get very little sex from me" is likely to drive away a potential spouse. In an ideal world, your wife would be honest and work towards a mutually acceptable solution. Here, because she refuses help, admitting she has a problem would be shooting herself in the foot. How likely are you to stay with someone who admits you are being used for her own ends?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

pjp said:


> thanks there are some very good points there, maybe i have been pampering to her needs all our marraige, not maybe i know i have, i think i need to grow some balls and a backbone, the only problem with that is the worst i ever get is slightly sarcastic, it would be hard to be like that after 20 years of being quite soft.


But you can do it, and you must if you want even a chance at improvement. I let my ex turn me into a total chump over a number of years.

I finally got to a point where I just started taking care of myself. I still did tons for my child, went to work, paid bills, but turned the thermostat way down and told her exactly how meaningless her feeble attempts at sexuality were.

It did get her attention. It forced her to see that there was no more free ride and her choices were now to meet my needs or meet her own. I became willing to meet my own needs but there's only so much of me to go around.

And, things did improve for a while. Unfortunately, after seeing what it was putting in the effort to meet my needs, she decided she was better off alone. But, if I had not made a stand we probably would be in the same dynamic today.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

pjp said:


> i have had another talk with my wife and she is quite happy for us to have a marraige without sex and as far as she is concerned there is nothing more to be said or done on the subject, to top it all its my birthday today and all of her family are coming round ( about 15 of them), i hate to say it but i do not feel like greeting her family with a smile and pretending i am a happy jolly person as i am not either of them at the moment,


Happy Birthday!

All her family is coming around? What about your friends and family?

I would suggest that you confront her again and tell her that just because she thinks this is a resolved issue does not make it so. Tell her that this is unacceptable to you and you will not allow it to continue. Do the thermostat thing. Another alternative is the "shot across the bow". Tell her that you'll either be seeing a counselor with her or an attorney without. In the event an attorney is necessary you consider her selfishness to be a terrible example for your children and you will do everything you can to get as much as you can in the event of a divorce.

Sounds harsh, but you need to break her out of her complacency. The goal would be to drive her to action out of self-interest and hope that she sees the light about what it means to be a good wife.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

FormerNiceGuy said:


> '
> 
> +1 on Bluemoon1's comment with a caveat.
> 
> There is one acceptable reason to fix yourself and one only - for you. Everything else is outside of your control. Focus on you.


Yes. Absolutely.

I would also add that you define your needs (hopefully within reasonable bounds). Don't get caught up in that "sex is not a need like [fill in the blank]" or "I do meet your need but you are just being selfish". Two reasons why:

1) Whether it is a need or a want is besides the point. What is important is that your wants and needs are as important as hers.

2) The ultimate goal is for her to actually take an interest in meeting your needs as an inherently beneficial thing. If you get into a debate of "well how much do you want it" and she's just punching a clock rather than being truly invested in you, you have a situation where she will keep trying to whittle you down and what you get is not likely to be very satisfying.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

pjp said:


> i think if the atmosphere continues it is going to affect our daughters,


It absolutely will affect your daughters. One, they will pick up on the tension and it will hurt them. Two, they may think that your wife is acting appropriately and may mimick her behavior in their own relationships, having the same problems you are having now.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> This is the alternative convo:
> 
> Husband: OK, so I am slow but I finally get it. You don't like having sex with me. I accept that you don't like it. Now I need you to tell me what to do differently so you do like it.
> 
> ...


I love this form of the conversation (although I would not offer possible reasons, and I would include somewhere in there exactly what my expectations are). Three reasons:

1) You are owning your part in the and assigning no blame or bitterness for the past, yet
2) You are setting the tone for holding her accountable. You are willing to meet her needs but are laying the groundwork for "earlier you said you could do XYZ if I did ABC for you. You now have ABC and have not responded in kind", so
3) you know exactly where you stand.

The only issue is you need to be strong enough to hear some hard truth. For instance, I did this with my ex and her eventual answer is "I never wanted to have much sex with you. I told you I would so that you would marry me. When you complain about it I lose whatever little desire I do have."

Not a pity party for me, just a note that if I had not been in a place where I firmly knew my value and the propriety of my ambitions I likely could not have dealt with this issue constructively.


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## ahhnold (Mar 28, 2012)

jeepgal said:


> Why do men want to leave when the sex starts to slow down? Twice a month with your wife, with whom you have made vows to love honor through good and bad, or divorce her and be single and only have sex sporadically throughout the year when you're lucky enough to get a date?


Marriage vows are made with the perquisite that the marriage will give peace of mind and calmness to the person. When a male has little sex he has little peace and so the person has little reason to keep his vows.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

DTO,
That is a healthy outcome. Alignment of talk and action. 

I started travelling a lot for a new job. A few months into it I let a couple weeks go by during which she was always calling me at night and a couple times I was tired and cut the call short. Our weekend pattern stayed the same. We hit the third week, more of the same. Middle of the third week I get "the talk". It is short, sharp and painful. I agree, empathize and apologize. Next night I call her. Next week I make an effort to initiate more than half the calls. My wife isn't needy. But she has needs. Good thing she prefers me to meet those needs than some other guy. 

This is what works for us. Start to really wander off the reservation and you get a 110 volt warning. 




UOTE=DTO;711402]I love this form of the conversation (although I would not offer possible reasons, and I would include somewhere in there exactly what my expectations are). Three reasons:

1) You are owning your part in the and assigning no blame or bitterness for the past, yet
2) You are setting the tone for holding her accountable. You are willing to meet her needs but are laying the groundwork for "earlier you said you could do XYZ if I did ABC for you. You now have ABC and have not responded in kind", so
3) you know exactly where you stand.

The only issue is you need to be strong enough to hear some hard truth. For instance, I did this with my ex and her eventual answer is "I never wanted to have much sex with you. I told you I would so that you would marry me. When you complain about it I lose whatever little desire I do have."

Not a pity party for me, just a note that if I had not been in a place where I firmly knew my value and the propriety of my ambitions I likely could not have dealt with this issue constructively.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## FormerNiceGuy (Feb 13, 2012)

DTO said:


> 2) The ultimate goal is for her to actually take an interest in meeting your needs as an inherently beneficial thing. If you get into a debate of "well how much do you want it" and she's just punching a clock rather than being truly invested in you, you have a situation where she will keep trying to whittle you down and what you get is not likely to be very satisfying.


I don't agree with this statement.

The ultimate goal is to be a healthy, mature, independent adult in a healthy marriage. From that place, a husband doesn't need his wife to "take an interest in meeting his needs." He can take care of himself and so can she.

An adult has zero control over the other adult in a healthy relationship. The spouse can cheat, lie, steal, not have sex and its their choice. I want my spouse to act in a way that is completely authentic and consistent with her beliefs. Guess what? Sometimes that means she doesn't do things that I want to do. Might I be disappointed? Sure.

What happens if my authentic spouse says she is turning off the sexual spigot because it doesn't "do it for her." I would thank her for her honesty and then be honest in return. I am not willing to live in a sexless marriage. We have options: 1) open marriage or 2) divorce. Not sure I like 1), but I will try but believe we are likely to end up in 2). At that point, if she is being completely authentic and there are no issues in her sexual shutdown (unlikely but possible), she gets to make her own choice. It would likely be sad, but there is no reason to fight reality - two people have grown in a way that makes it tough for them to continue to be married in a traditional sense so they will divorce or come up with an alternative.

David Schnarch deals with this topic in Passionate Marriage. I have not read the book - just an article in a magazine, but I like what I read.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

pjp said:


> i have had another talk with my wife and she is quite happy for us to have a marraige without sex and as far as she is concerned there is nothing more to be said or done on the subject, to top it all its my birthday today and all of her family are coming round ( about 15 of them), i hate to say it but i do not feel like greeting her family with a smile and pretending i am a happy jolly person as i am not either of them at the moment,


:slap:
The beta is strong in this one. All we've done on this thread is tell him to stop talking, and all he does is talk. I guess he thinks there's some kind of magic version of "please" that will finally convince his wife to have sex with him. I'll save you some trouble. There's not.

Pjp, you have two choices for happiness. Both of them require that you stop asking your wife for sex, telling your wife that you're not happy, and basically all the stuff you've been doing.

Your first choice is to follow our advice. Start going to the gym. Lose weight. Work on yourself. Flirt with other women. Get your confidence up. Your wife may become attracted to you again and want to have sex with you. If not, at least you will be happier with yourself and better able to bed other women.

Your second choice is to just shut up and accept that you have no power in your relationship. Your wife is in charge and your role is to do exactly what she tells you to. Over time, you may be able to become happy in your sexless role as your wife's platonic helper.

There is no third option. You continuing to be unhappy about sex, while doing exactly the things that turn your wife off will not lead you to more sex and happiness. You divorcing your wife and trying to smother other women with your beta charms will not have them jumping into your bed.

So, add alpha, or shut up. That's your choice.

Good luck.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Ok now that everyone else has beaten this to a pulp, I'll put in my more Alpha response.

She's said "she is quite happy for us to have a marraige without sex and as far as she is concerned there is nothing more to be said or done on the subject"

OP, as one other has said, you should tell her that you're not done with a sex life just yet so since she has choosen to break or ignore one of the very basic marriage vows, you will then pursue relationships outside of the marriage.

Tell her it's a win/win for the both of you. You get to have sex and she gets to stay in the marriage and all the benefits that come along with it (house, food clothes, etc.).

See how she likes THEM apples!


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## pjp (Apr 25, 2012)

i am have had enough so after work my wife is going to get told this, i am not done with a sex life just yet so since she has choosen to break or ignore one of the very basic marriage vows, you will then pursue relationships outside of the marriage.

Tell her it's a win/win for the both of you. You get to have sex and she gets to stay in the marriage and all the benefits that come along with it (house, food clothes, etc.).

at this stage i have got to do something drastic,


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> This is the alternative convo:
> 
> Husband: OK, so I am slow but I finally get it. You don't like having sex with me. I accept that you don't like it. Now I need you to tell me what to do differently so you do like it.
> 
> ...


And waits. And waits. And waits. And WAAAAAAITS...

This works on the premise she has a clue what is driving this, and can actually articulate it. I'm not convinced this is universal. So she stands there like a rabbit in the headlights saying nothing.

Or she goes on the attack.

Or she tells you any old ****e that comes into her head just to shut you up...


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> And waits. And waits. And waits. And WAAAAAAITS...
> 
> This works on the premise she has a clue what is driving this, and can actually articulate it. I'm not convinced this is universal. So she stands there like a rabbit in the headlights saying nothing.
> 
> ...


So what is the alternative?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> So what is the alternative?


That you find some way to ensure that she actually has a frame of reference for this, and a way of articulating what she feels in a meaningful way.

If there's a lack of this "common language" or understanding, it's part of the wider problem. If she can't describe her sexual feelings and needs in a way she feels comfortable with AND that you can understand, you'll get nowhere fast.

Otherwise you might as well ask any question you like in a language she doesn't understand: you'll never get any sort of useful answer.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> That you find some way to ensure that she actually has a frame of reference for this, and a way of articulating what she feels in a meaningful way.
> 
> If there's a lack of this "common language" or understanding, it's part of the wider problem. If she can't describe her sexual feelings and needs in a way she feels comfortable with AND that you can understand, you'll get nowhere fast.


How do you do that?



> Otherwise you might as well ask any question you like in a language she doesn't understand: you'll never get any sort of useful answer.


So then what do you do?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> How do you do that?
> 
> 
> 
> So then what do you do?


Let's put it this way - saying "Tell me or we're talking divorce" probably will just get you a divorce.

If you want to divorce, fine. Go ahead and do it, but don't try to convince yourself that this line of work gives you the right to say "I did everything in my power to make it work".

As for how do you get your wife to be comfortable with, and capable of, describing her sexual self? Time, confidence, patience, trust, more patience, persistence, openness, lightheartedness, love, more patience, discussion, examples, closeness, more patience, further persistence, setting a good example, being truthful, even more patience...

If you are with someone who none of this works on, then I guess you have to ask if you are going to walk.

Why, what do YOU think the answer is to getting someone who is uncomfortable with their sexuality, and doesn't understand it, to express sexual feelings and preferences?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Well - everyone is different. She might talk, or if not: 
I might try a catalyst to extract some content from her, hopefully in a humorous manner. 

Babe lets forget the idea of good and bad for the moment and just talk about some common sexual points of difference between men and women. 
1. Would you prefer I last longer?
2. Do you want me to be rougher more dominant with you?
3. Do you want me to go "faster" when having sex
4. Do you want me to bring you close, and then finish you with intercourse? Or at least get you close as possible and slide down for the grand finale 

Don't ask in rapid succession. If she is avoiding/not answering the first question. Stop right there and tell her that absent feedback that is not a solvable progrem. And that is ok - long as you understand that is a choice you re making for YOU. Not a choice you are making for us as a couple - solely a me me me choice. And that is ok, we can take all the pessure off you to do something you:
1. dislike and
2. seem unwilling to try to fix

This is fine provided you except that I am not going to be celibate and I know you don't expect me to be. I'll be discreet, just not celibate. I won't bring any play dates home. And this path also means that any discusion about sex between us - won't happen. My goal is not to cause you distress, especially the kind of toxic distress your blatant disinterest in me, my feelings on the matter, etc. 







Sawney Beane said:


> And waits. And waits. And waits. And WAAAAAAITS...
> 
> This works on the premise she has a clue what is driving this, and can actually articulate it. I'm not convinced this is universal. So she stands there like a rabbit in the headlights saying nothing.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Well - everyone is different. She might talk, or if not: 
I might try a catalyst to extract some content from her, hopefully in a humorous manner. 

Babe lets forget the idea of good and bad for the moment and just talk about some common sexual points of difference between men and women. 
1. Would you prefer I last longer?
2. Do you want me to be rougher more dominant with you?
3. Do you want me to go "faster" when having sex
4. Do you want me to bring you close, and then finish you with intercourse? Or at least get you close as possible and slide down for the grand finale 

Don't ask in rapid succession. If she is avoiding/not answering the first question you should stop right there and tell her that absent feedback that is not a solvable progrem. And that is ok - long as you understand that is a choice you re making for YOU. Not a choice you are making for us as a couple - solely a me me me choice. And that is ok, we can take all the pessure off you to do something you:
1. dislike and
2. seem unwilling to try to fix

This is fine provided you except that I am not going to be celibate and I know you don't expect me to be. I'll be discreet, just not celibate. I won't bring any play dates home. And this path also means that any discusion about sex between us - won't happen. My goal is not to cause you distress, especially the kind of toxic distress your blatant disinterest in:
- me, 
- my feelings on this matter and 
- the overall health of our marriage






Sawney Beane said:


> And waits. And waits. And waits. And WAAAAAAITS...
> 
> This works on the premise she has a clue what is driving this, and can actually articulate it. I'm not convinced this is universal. So she stands there like a rabbit in the headlights saying nothing.
> 
> ...


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## sharplle (May 1, 2012)

Cupcake37 said:


> Then she obviously knows you are not happy and o.k with the situation. Have you been specific and told her you want more sex?
> 
> I know what you mean about nothing changes. I feel as if things slowly improve then quite quickly slip back to normal. I feel as if I am begging him for sex and it has reached a stage where he has hurt me so much, I don't really want him anywhere near me anymore. You don't really want to do it with somebody who is doing it just to shut you up do you? I don't think he has any concept of how hurtful his rejections have been to me. If it was the otherway around I could never reject him night after night after night. I find it really hard how a husband or wife can do this to their respective partners, somebody who they are suppose to love and cherish, and not care or realise the impact of their actions.
> 
> I am sorry I haven't been much help but you are not alone, take care


I'm in much the same position, so glad I found a website that is helpful and let me know I am not alone. My husband has not touched or kissed me (except for the hello goodbye duck peck) in almost three years. Before that it was twice in the previous four years. 

He won't talk about it, won't go to counsil. He say's I live in a fantasy world and want something I see on LMN! I don't! I just want some kind of intimacy from him, even if it was just a foot rub, however, when he has touched me he touches me like I'm made of concrete, no tenderness whatsoever. I've tried to explain to him what I like and don't like and how to be a little more tender...to no avail. I really should just leave, however, my situation is very complicated, I do love him, I don't know why? My story is very long and I don't want to bore people with it, just looking for someone to vent to and share experiences. Thanks for reading.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> Let's put it this way - saying "Tell me or we're talking divorce" probably will just get you a divorce.
> 
> If you want to divorce, fine. Go ahead and do it, but don't try to convince yourself that this line of work gives you the right to say "I did everything in my power to make it work".
> 
> ...


I think what you set forth above will probably work great for some people, though I have to wonder how long to give it. Seems like a recipe for running in place with no end in sight. That said, no reason not to try it for a time (say three months) and then examine the results.



> Why, what do YOU think the answer is to getting someone who is uncomfortable with their sexuality, and doesn't understand it, to express sexual feelings and preferences?


I don't think there is one single answer. I think some ideas generally work better than others, but no idea is fool proof. I have certainly posted my thoughts here before (they tend to be a bit closer to MEM's than yours). But I admit to being frustrated with you sittign on the side lines noting all the faults and downfalls of others' advice without offering anything of your own. Thanks for adding the above.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I think what you set forth above will probably work great for some people, though I have to wonder how long to give it. Seems like a recipe for running in place with no end in sight. That said, no reason not to try it for a time (say three months) and then examine the results.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think there is one single answer. I think some ideas generally work better than others, but no idea is fool proof. I have certainly posted my thoughts here before (they tend to be a bit closer to MEM's than yours). But I admit to being frustrated with you sittign on the side lines noting all the faults and downfalls of others' advice without offering anything of your own. Thanks for adding the above.


What you need to do is create a situation / atmosphere wherein the other partner can gain, build and ultimately express "sexual self-confidence" for want of a better phrase. At that point the chances of getting a genuine, and useful answer to any question are vastly higher. Self-confidence comes from within the other person, but by providing support, feedback and a situation where there are achievable challenges and minor failures are an opportunity to learn, not grounds for a bollocking, you are more likely to allow self-confidence to flourish.

Trying to scare, pressure or intimidate people into gaining self-confidence isn't usually very successful.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> What you need to do is create a situation / atmosphere wherein the other partner can gain, build and ultimately express "sexual self-confidence" for want of a better phrase. At that point the chances of getting a genuine, and useful answer to any question are vastly higher. Self-confidence comes from within the other person, but by providing support, feedback and a situation where there are achievable challenges and minor failures are an opportunity to learn, not grounds for a bollocking, you are more likely to allow self-confidence to flourish.
> 
> Trying to scare, pressure or intimidate people into gaining self-confidence isn't usually very successful.


No, but scaring them into action can be. Most people do the absolute minimum to get by. If they can avoid doing something, and still get most things they want in return, you know dang well they will do nothing. Sometimes it takes the threat of losing things for them to get off their butt and do something. All the self-confidence in the world won't necessarily motivate a person to change.

So while I agree that self-confidence is a good thing to work on, I do believe you seriously under-estimate fear as a motivator.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> No, but scaring them into action can be. Most people do the absolute minimum to get by. If they can avoid doing something, and still get most things they want in return, you know dang well they will do nothing. Sometimes it takes the threat of losing things for them to get off their butt and do something. All the self-confidence in the world won't necessarily motivate a person to change.
> 
> So while I agree that self-confidence is a good thing to work on, I do believe you seriously under-estimate fear as a motivator.


There’s a lot going on here, but if I had to encapsulate it in a short sentence, I’d quote Cicero “Fear is not a lasting teacher of duty”.

In management, I’ve scared people into bucking up their ideas and getting what I wanted, but with respect, that’s a bit different. My own level of emotional investment in my job is much lower than in a marriage or LTR. In a job, if the person improves because you have scared seven shades of sh1t out of them, that’s fine.

Is that what you want out of your wife? Because no one I have ever scared into doing their job better did it better because they wanted to be good at their job. They did it to get me off their back.

What you are looking for is what is called “intrinsic motivation”, whereby someone does something because they enjoy doing it. Not because of rewards, threats of punishment or negative effects of not doing it. Continued participation, at all levels, correlates best with intrinsic motivation. This is true in education, sport, work, whatever.

Also, there’s the issue of trust in this. You are asking someone to trust you with something deeply personal. I don’t believe you can gain trust with a threat. In fact, I would say that you absolutely cannot frighten someone into trusting you – the two things are mutually exclusive.

My wife and I are intrinsically motivated about sex. We enjoy it and trust one another. If I had to scare her into having sex because of the consequences, why will she enjoy it?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

What I find contradictory in this is simple:
- they started out having sex with you a lot
- this doesn't feel like a confidence thing at all
- i agree they don't like talking about sex, mainly because they don't like sex and dont like thinking about it
- in another post you said you believed they mainly didn't know how much this hurts the hd partner and yet showing hurt is the opposite of what you recommend
- and in fact all this happy cheerful persistence will allow the selfish to go on believing you are happy
- as for not knowing why desire has left, agreed, they don't know why
- as for threatening divorce, I don't recommend that - oddly enough these are often people very worried about what everyone other than YOU, thinks. An open marriage scares them a lot

SB,
I am guessing no one takes your kindness for weakness. For most sexless men, following the nicer, kinder more patient approach is what got them sexless to start.


QUOTE=Sawney Beane;715139]What you need to do is create a situation / atmosphere wherein the other partner can gain, build and ultimately express "sexual self-confidence" for want of a better phrase. At that point the chances of getting a genuine, and useful answer to any question are vastly higher. Self-confidence comes from within the other person, but by providing support, feedback and a situation where there are achievable challenges and minor failures are an opportunity to learn, not grounds for a bollocking, you are more likely to allow self-confidence to flourish.

Trying to scare, pressure or intimidate people into gaining self-confidence isn't usually very successful.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

pjp - I would advise stepping back. trying to scare her or trying to have an open relationship too soon will ruin any chance you have. many men are in a similar position to you. you need to understand what you are feeling and, what she is feeling. although you may have or may think you have expressed that sex is a need, do you understand why, does she? her saying "she is quite happy for us to have a marraige without sex and as far as she is concerned there is nothing more to be said or done on the subject" means one of two things, she does not love you or does not understand that sexual intimacy is an emotional need of yours. 

If she knows you have a need and will not work to fill it, she does not love you. Move to a spare room and move on. 

But there is a good chance she just does not understand. To many, particularly married women, they do not view sex as an emotional need, just as a means of getting off. They see it as dirty and unnecessary. Like if you were to say eating horse meat is an emotional need. They just cannot believe you and think you are just a horn-dog out for sex. 

The books can help her understand it is not just you that thinks this way - women denied sex feel this way too.

Tell her, you do not need her for sex, for the release. You can do that on your own. You need her for the mutual expression of desire and comfort and commitment. That sexual activity is the only thing that only you two can do together. That the bible and state law expect marriage to include sex. That it is a need, that if she does not fulfill it she is abandoning you and the marriage (under NYS law, it is constructive abandonment to not have sex, grounds for divorce). Help her understand it is not just you ejaculating that she is denying.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> What I find contradictory in this is simple:
> - they started out having sex with you a lot
> - this doesn't feel like a confidence thing at all


Maybe, maybe not. If they feel that they've built a house on sand, the actions not reflecting their own internal dialogue.


> - i agree they don't like talking about sex, mainly because they don't like sex and dont like thinking about it


If you're up against someone who plain does not like sex at all, and will not allow themselves to be persuaded otherwise, NOTHING is going to do any good. You don't need a strategy, you need a miracle in this case, and any discussion of what as a mortal you can do is a waste of breath.



> - in another post you said you believed they mainly didn't know how much this hurts the hd partner and yet showing hurt is the opposite of what you recommend
> - and in fact all this happy cheerful persistence will allow the selfish to go on believing you are happy


In this I didn't explain myself clearly. Patience might be the wrong word. When you coach someone, you look for effort, improvement, results. If the results are slow in coming, and the improvements are small, you keep coaching, as long as the effort is there. If you turn around and say "You're crap, I'm out of here", when someone is genuinely trying, you aren't much of a coach. Your job is to get them to reach inside themselves. 

You have to show them that the effort is worth it, that the nearly-invisible gains are worth the grunt. Using that person's own emotions to drive them on is one tool, but you can't scare them into seeing it as a good thing.



> - as for not knowing why desire has left, agreed, they don't know why


Then you certainly can't shock, frighten or intimidate them into knowing. 


> - as for threatening divorce, I don't recommend that - oddly enough these are often people very worried about what everyone other than YOU, thinks. An open marriage scares them a lot


I guess "...That is unless you wish to have the "other" conversation..." means something other than the open marriage / divorce conversation then? If so, sorry - I misinterpreted.


> SB,
> I am guessing no one takes your kindness for weakness. For most sexless men, following the nicer, kinder more patient approach is what got them sexless to start.


Oddly enough no, they don't I'm not talking about just being kind and waiting - you have to actively "coach".

I can't put is very well - but this embodies it, as well as I can think

"_In The Green Jackets we rightly put the emphasis on self discipline rather than the imposed variety favoured by some others. We seek, by good leadership, example, explaining what we are doing and generally treating those under us with humanity and commonsense, to evoke a loyal response and produce the sense of responsibility needed. This is a policy to be proud of and it has proved to be extremely effective. The end product is more deep seated because it is based on the individuals own will power, and it usually creates a fine atmosphere of trust and mutual respect which manifests itself in a sensible adult approach to problems_..."

That's the "Way" of my old Regiment (amalgamated now). This is the approach I'd recommend. But it depends on the other person wanting to come with you. You can force someone to be a soldier, but you can't force them to be a Rifleman! And in the same way, you can force someone f*ck you, but you can't force them to make love with you.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

While I agree with much of what Sawney Beane is saying regarding intrinsic motivation, I think a degree of fear is healthy in a relationship.

A common thread among many of the sexless marriage posts I've seen is that one spouse is often supremely confident that the other would never leave. And that belief that can be comforting on one level, can lead to abuses when taken too far.

I think most marriages need a level of unspoken motivation that, if you don't do your best for your spouse, someone else will. Obviously, that shouldn't be the primary motivator. But, if my wife has sex with me 90% because she likes it and 10% because she wants to keep me, I'm good with that.

I think that level is usually best obtained by being a high value person who can obviously draw interest from the opposite sex, rather than explicitly threaten divorce. But, sometimes drastic measures are called for and an ultimatum may serve a purpose.


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