# On Cluster B and Borderline



## EllaSuaveterre

I see a lot of posts- and occasionally even whole threads, on TAM or LoveShack or SurvivingInfidelity about "Cluster B" personality disordered people, particularly Borderline personality disorder. Especially in cases where the BPD-afflicted person is a WS, the advice ranges from "Dump them immediately" to "Lock them up. Cluster-B people can't love."

Now, I'm not going to argue whether cluster-B people cannot love or feel empathy. Because I don't know. I have Borderline Personality Disorder. I'm also a Wayward Wife. I don't know if my capacity to love or to empathize with other people is as strong as everyone else's. But I will tell you that I want to love and be loved with all my heart, and I think I can safely speak for most other Borderlines and say they want the same. At its core, from what I've learned in DBT (_the _therapy for BPD, which I've been in since my A in 2014) BPD is a fear of abandonment. A fear of being left alone and having to look after and/or put up with yourself.

The stereotypical picture of the Borderline Wayward is someone who doesn't give a rat's tail about anyone but themselves, has no idea how to love or feel anything but rage and contempt, and will burn you in your bed for looking at them the wrong way.

I'm not like that. I get angry and have vindictive feelings more often than most, but I never act on them. The only person I ever take my anger and pain out on is myself. If somebody leaves me or slights me, I will probably be angry for a few weeks and grieved for a few _months_, but the only person I ever truly blame for their absence is myself. I've struggled with self-harm, suicidal ideation, eating disorders, and generally non-existent self-esteem. I couldn't hurt anyone who would, in my mind, lessen their quality of life by loving me. Not knowingly anyway.

During my A, I was not maniacally laughing and saying, "I'm going to ruin my husband's life! He'll never know what hit him! He deserves to be so miserable! _Muahahahaha!!!_" No way. I hated myself. I hated what I (at the time felt I) was being forced to do. I felt I had little to no agency in ending the affair. I genuinely felt my husband would be better off if I left him and/or died, both of which would have eventually happened if the A continued. 

And I only chose to start the affair because I was afraid my husband was going to leave me and I couldn't bear to be alone. 

Why did I think he was going to leave me? Because I hated myself. Why on earth wouldn't he hate me too? The OM was abusive, but I didn't see it as abuse at the time. I thought the OM knew how horrible I was and was only treating me like I deserved. Any kindness was too good to be real. My H would be better off if the OM murdered me. At least I'd be out of his hair.

For the entire first year post-A, I was too wrapped up in healing from the anxiety and depression the A gave _me_ (I'm aware that sounds horrible to say) and for the second year, I am truly ashamed to admit I didn't classify what I had done as infidelity because OM was abusive. Now, as of about July of this year, I have started reading and understanding more about what I did to my BH and how I can help him.

Now that I've read "Who Will You Become", "How to Help your Spouse Heal From Your Affair", and "Not Just Friends", I have realized that I, in spite of being abused myself, also abused my poor, undeserving, gentle husband. I could have ended the affair- abuse or not, mortal terror or not- at any time, and I chose not to. My beloved BH didn't ask for any of this. I did. I have come to realize how utterly misguided it was to think that an exit affair would leave him without hurt feelings and/or with a sense of relief that I was gone. A WS can be the most vile piece of hot garbage in the world, and an A can and likely will still leave the BS with severe trauma that is equivalent to a soldier's battlefield PTSD. Now that I know that, I absolutely despise myself for having hurt my BS like that. It's been a serious struggle not to relapse into self-harm or anorexia in order to numb the self-loathing. But so far I've done it. 

So far, I think I've done okay at listening to my BH's needs, making time to romance him and/or be with him, talking with him regularly and helping him process, and reading the aforementioned books with him. He says he trusts me completely, I've not seen him trigger too much, and he says he forgives me. I will spend the rest of my life trying to make it up to him, help him process, help him through triggers if he gets them, and keep my finger on the pulse of his moods and needs.

I still get flashbacks and triggers of my own regarding the A and the OM on occasion (I can't walk past someone who resembles him without wanting to be sick) and I still, very very often, have almost unbearable episodes of self-hatred. But I destroyed my BH's whole life, and I deserve the self-hatred for a good long while.

This got really vent-y, sidetracked, and long, but the point is that I, and other Borderlines and Cluster Bs, want to learn to love the people in their lives. We want to stop hurting others. We want to help our BSs. We want to learn how to accept love. We don't mean to be monsters, and we're very, very sorry.


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## soulpotato

Hugs from someone else with BPD (and who was a wayward). Very brave post. You're a beautiful and loving person. Hang in there.


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## john117

Hugs also from someone married to a diagnosed but untreated BPD. Your introspection is remarkable and most heartwarming.


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## veganmermaid

Thank you for writing this post.

I see posts everywhere on the internet that really seem to suggest people with mood disorders are sinister, malicious, bad, incurable, and that's really not true for most cases. As you mentioned, borderline can be treated via DBT; I believe Prozac has also been used with success for some cases.

With many mental illnesses, I've been disheartened to read/hear/see people conflate the person with the illness. 

As an example, I suffer from anorexia nervosa and OCD (which is NOT the same thing as being a type-A neat freak -- that is obsessive compulsive personality disorder, OCPD), and complex PTSD. Right now I'm experiencing an awful relapse with my eating disorder, brought about by my C-PTSD. I have a hard time doing anything but going to work because I've overheard enough comments to know that outsiders look at me and say / think "She's anorexic" (or worse; I know I look disgustingly thin, thank you very much random strangers) which is a big distinction from "she has anorexia." 

Culturally we do the same thing with bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, etc. I hate it. I hate hearing "He is bipolar" or "she is schizophrenic" -- no, he HAS bipolar disorder; she HAS schizophrenia. People with mental illnesses, including mood and personality disorders, are still people. They are not their diagnoses. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ShatteredStill

So many people with these types of personality disorders are not as introspective & open as you. They are often very selfish conditions which limit empathy & compassion for others....AND stop sufferers from seeking treatment. 

Thank you so very much for sharing.


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## EllaSuaveterre

john117 said:


> Hugs also from someone married to a diagnosed but untreated BPD. Your introspection is remarkable and most heartwarming.


I've got a few questions if I may. How does your wife's BPD affect you? 

In what ways does she act out/self-destruct/self-sabotage?

How do you react to her changing moods and volatile behavior? 

Why can't she or won't she get treatment? Is she one of those who has been dismissed by multiple doctors for non-compliance, because that's really common with BPD.

Especially burning question: what do you wish she would say or do to facilitate her own healing and/or yours?

Sorry to bombard you with so many questions, but it's rare to get a window into the mind of the other side, so to speak.


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## As'laDain

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I see a lot of posts- and occasionally even whole threads, on TAM or LoveShack or SurvivingInfidelity about "Cluster B" personality disordered people, particularly Borderline personality disorder. Especially in cases where the BPD-afflicted person is a WS, the advice ranges from "Dump them immediately" to "Lock them up. Cluster-B people can't love."
> 
> Now, I'm not going to argue whether cluster-B people cannot love or feel empathy. Because I don't know. I have Borderline Personality Disorder. I'm also a Wayward Wife. I don't know if my capacity to love or to empathize with other people is as strong as everyone else's. But I will tell you that I want to love and be loved with all my heart, and I think I can safely speak for most other Borderlines and say they want the same. At its core, from what I've learned in DBT (_the _therapy for BPD, which I've been in since my A in 2014) BPD is a fear of abandonment. A fear of being left alone and having to look after and/or put up with yourself.
> 
> The stereotypical picture of the Borderline Wayward is someone who doesn't give a rat's tail about anyone but themselves, has no idea how to love or feel anything but rage and contempt, and will burn you in your bed for looking at them the wrong way.
> 
> I'm not like that. I get angry and have vindictive feelings more often than most, but I never act on them. The only person I ever take my anger and pain out on is myself. If somebody leaves me or slights me, I will probably be angry for a few weeks and grieved for a few _months_, but the only person I ever truly blame for their absence is myself. I've struggled with self-harm, suicidal ideation, eating disorders, and generally non-existent self-esteem. I couldn't hurt anyone who would, in my mind, lessen their quality of life by loving me. Not knowingly anyway.
> 
> During my A, I was not maniacally laughing and saying, "I'm going to ruin my husband's life! He'll never know what hit him! He deserves to be so miserable! _Muahahahaha!!!_" No way. I hated myself. I hated what I (at the time felt I) was being forced to do. I felt I had little to no agency in ending the affair. I genuinely felt my husband would be better off if I left him and/or died, both of which would have eventually happened if the A continued.
> 
> And I only chose to start the affair because I was afraid my husband was going to leave me and I couldn't bear to be alone.
> 
> *Why did I think he was going to leave me? Because I hated myself. Why on earth wouldn't he hate me too? The OM was abusive, but I didn't see it as abuse at the time. I thought the OM knew how horrible I was and was only treating me like I deserved. Any kindness was too good to be real. My H would be better off if the OM murdered me. At least I'd be out of his hair.
> *
> For the entire first year post-A, I was too wrapped up in healing from the anxiety and depression the A gave _me_ (I'm aware that sounds horrible to say) and for the second year, I am truly ashamed to admit I didn't classify what I had done as infidelity because OM was abusive. Now, as of about July of this year, I have started reading and understanding more about what I did to my BH and how I can help him.
> 
> Now that I've read "Who Will You Become", "How to Help your Spouse Heal From Your Affair", and "Not Just Friends", I have realized that I, in spite of being abused myself, also abused my poor, undeserving, gentle husband. I could have ended the affair- abuse or not, mortal terror or not- at any time, and I chose not to. My beloved BH didn't ask for any of this. I did. I have come to realize how utterly misguided it was to think that an exit affair would leave him without hurt feelings and/or with a sense of relief that I was gone. A WS can be the most vile piece of hot garbage in the world, and an A can and likely will still leave the BS with severe trauma that is equivalent to a soldier's battlefield PTSD. Now that I know that, I absolutely despise myself for having hurt my BS like that. It's been a serious struggle not to relapse into self-harm or anorexia in order to numb the self-loathing. But so far I've done it.
> 
> So far, I think I've done okay at listening to my BH's needs, making time to romance him and/or be with him, talking with him regularly and helping him process, and reading the aforementioned books with him. He says he trusts me completely, I've not seen him trigger too much, and he says he forgives me. I will spend the rest of my life trying to make it up to him, help him process, help him through triggers if he gets them, and keep my finger on the pulse of his moods and needs.
> 
> I still get flashbacks and triggers of my own regarding the A and the OM on occasion (I can't walk past someone who resembles him without wanting to be sick) and I still, very very often, have almost unbearable episodes of self-hatred. But I destroyed my BH's whole life, and I deserve the self-hatred for a good long while.
> 
> This got really vent-y, sidetracked, and long, but the point is that I, and other Borderlines and Cluster Bs, want to learn to love the people in their lives. We want to stop hurting others. We want to help our BSs. We want to learn how to accept love. We don't mean to be monsters, and we're very, very sorry.


this. 

what you just stated mirror exactly what my wife has said before. She hates herself because she keeps making bad decisions despite logically knowing better. or at least, she used to. nowadays, it is infrequent that she does anything destructive.

she identifies with the disney character stitch. at one point, lilo draws a picture of him and fills it in with either blue or red, depending on how bad or good stitch is. lilo keeps trying to tell stitch that even though he does bad things sometimes, he is still good over all. he does enough good to still be considered good. well, when stitch has a problem that causes him to act out with destructive behavior, stitch takes the drawing and erases all the blue and fills it in with red. he judges himself far more harshly than lilo does. 

in the story, stitch had a problem that he had no control of. but in real life, my wife often felt like she had no control over her own actions. she would feel overwhelmed by emotion and acted out of them, desperately trying to feel better, safer, more secure. the idea of choosing to act despite the emotions was a foreign concept to her. it would be fake, mocking.

the thing is though, she never really felt safe and loved. she couldn't accept that anyone else could love her because she saw herself as bad. it took me a while to find a way to let her know that i don't love her for who she is. i love her because its who i am.

at first, she didn't like that. it meant that there was nothing special about her that caused me to love her. at the same time, she has started to realize that she cant be "too bad". i don't love her because she is good or bad. i love her because i choose to. 

but, i also want her to love herself, so i find ways to motivate her with "rewards" and "punishments" in order to get her to do things that SHE can be proud of. hence our dynamic.

they say that BPD is basically having the emotional age of a child. if people can accept that and treat them the way they would an actual child, then living with them becomes no more difficult than raising a child. it also comes with all the fulfillment of raising a child. many of the same challenges and rewards.

if your husband is anything like me, then the best thing you can do for him is to learn to do good things despite how you feel. because if you can show that you can choose to do good things despite how you feel, you can become someone you can be proud of. you can love yourself. and if you can love yourself, then your husband wont ever have to worry about you. he will be free to just love you and enjoy your company.


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## john117

As'laDain said:


> they say that BPD is basically having the emotional age of a child. if people can accept that and treat them the way they would an actual child, then living with them becomes no more difficult than raising a child. it also comes with all the fulfillment of raising a child. many of the same challenges and rewards.


You don't have the same expectations from an adult than you do from a child, and the interaction between an adult and a child is very limited compared to the interaction between two adults.


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## As'laDain

john117 said:


> You don't have the same expectations from an adult than you do from a child, and the interaction between an adult and a child is very limited compared to the interaction between two adults.


of course. an adult with a childlike mentality or emotional maturity is not the same thing as a child. you certainly cannot exert control over them in the same ways you can a child. but they do respond to things, emotionally, as children do. 

not that anyone should stay in a relationship with them if they don't want to. i find my relationship with my wife to be fulfilling, but the next man may not. 

everyone should decide for themselves if they can accept the way these people are. 

unfortunately, it will always be easier to despise them than understand them.


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## john117

There's baseline expectations of adult-ness, so it's not Bob will accept someone as a partner with a stunted emotional state if he fully knows about it and Jill does nothing about it.

You're presented a fairy tale, an ideation, and by the time you find out the truth it's likely a bit too late. It has nothing to do with accepting or despising someone.

Also, the amount of, how to put it mildly, NotNormalPeople (tm) behavior is not constant over time. If it can be held in check, then things are good.

Openness, transparency, and willingness to work at it are crucial for a relationship like this to survive.


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## EllaSuaveterre

john117 said:


> There's baseline expectations of adult-ness, so it's not Bob will accept someone as a partner with a stunted emotional state if he fully knows about it and Jill does nothing about it.
> 
> You're presented a fairy tale, an ideation, and by the time you find out the truth it's likely a bit too late. It has nothing to do with accepting or despising someone.
> 
> Also, the amount of, how to put it mildly, NotNormalPeople (tm) behavior is not constant over time. If it can be held in check, then things are good.
> 
> Openness, transparency, and willingness to work at it are crucial for a relationship like this to survive.


My husband knows about my childlike mentality, and he embraces it. Yes, there's a baseline of what's acceptable and what's not, but it's probably set a bit lower than in other relationships.

Maybe our relationship really is a fairy tale, the kind that comes true... orrrrr maybe I'm just busy planning the date day I've been looking forward to for a month and I'm just over-the-top in love right now.


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## As'laDain

i dont think the expectations are lower. i still expect my wife to spend most of her time "adulting" because she has too. i just dont have any problems with being the one to provide her with motivation and direction in order to help her get things done. 


for instance, my wife often feels incredibly anxious when there are things she must do. so much so that she cannot set out a path for herself to get everything done. she just gets overwhelmed, which causes her to hide from all of it rather than accomplish it. that doesnt work though, it leads to her feeling guilty for not getting things done and feeling ashamed for choosing to hide instead. 

i used to take the thing she used to hide, like internet and such, on a temporary basis. that gave her just enough irritation/anger to forget about how anxious she was and she would get something done. then she wouldnt feel nearly as anxious anymore, and could work on the rest of it. eventually she just stopped getting mad at me altogether whenever i did it. she started seeking it out for it because she was tired of being so damn anxious all the time.

nowadays she mostly finds ways to motivate herself. she still doesnt quite know how to lead herself yet. she is pretty good at holding things down, but she doesn't really have her own vision. her vision is to be my support, in anything i do. and while i adore her for that, i would still like to see her learn to make a habit of thinking ahead without worrying ahead, if that makes any sense.

John117, my wife wasn't the one who changed things in order to make our marriage successful. she changed as a result of me changing. i changed because i saw that i would have to change if i were to have a successful and happy marriage with her. so i changed the way i did everything, and even the way i thought about everything. she had no choice but change or leave. i made sure the status quo was impossible. that is what i mean by accepting them. if you can accept the way they are, then you can learn what you have to do to change yourself and them.

of course, i acted largely out of my belief that people are always changing. given that i consider that fact, i constantly try to direct much of my own change and personal growth.


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## Hope Shimmers

Ella, have you been officially diagnosed with BPD? (I'm sorry if you said this before and I missed it)

I find it interesting, because you are very self-aware (more than most BPD'ers are), but then again. I think your level of intelligence and resulting communication skills are almost second to none. And at age 23!

So you are a highly intelligent, very articulate person who knows a hell of a lot more about life than almost any 23 year old I have ever known. Yet, you admittedly are emotionally at a level that others may have surpassed by your age, in terms of relationships anyway.

Honestly, I have no idea. You are so self-aware, and by definition, BPDers don't see that they have BPD (thus why it's so hard to treat). You are a fascinating person.


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## As'laDain

Hope Shimmers said:


> Ella, have you been officially diagnosed with BPD? (I'm sorry if you said this before and I missed it)
> 
> I find it interesting, because you are very self-aware (more than most BPD'ers are), but then again. I think your level of intelligence and resulting communication skills are almost second to none. And at age 23!
> 
> So you are a highly intelligent, very articulate person who knows a hell of a lot more about life than almost any 23 year old I have ever known. Yet, you admittedly are emotionally at a level that others may have surpassed by your age, in terms of relationships anyway.
> 
> Honestly, I have no idea. You are so self-aware, and by definition, BPDers don't see that they have BPD (thus why it's so hard to treat). You are a fascinating person.


something i find interesting is that most of the people i have met who identify as a "little", as in, have the childlike personalities and tendencies, have been diagnosed with BPD. most of the ones who have not been diagnosed still show most of the hallmarks. 

when my wife discovered the CG/l dynamic, she was terrified to bring it up to me. it was something she needed like water, in order to feel safe. she was terrified that she was going to mess up too bad some day and lose me. it took me a while to pry it out of her. she was terrified that i would reject her and think that there was something wrong with her. 

with the way the world views BPDers in general, it doesnt surprise me that NOBODY wants to be diagnosed with it. its like being diagnosed with sociopathy; the world loves to hate a sociopath. 

i think the CG/l dynamic is attractive to a lot of BPDers because it addresses that fear of abandonment. at its core, it is a dynamic that places the responsibility of caring for and leading the submissive, or "little" in the hands of the dominant party, or care giver. that means that if the little does something bad, or displays bad behavior, its the CGs job to do something to get them back on track, and then guide them and teach them how to act in order to be a compatible partner. 

these types of relationships are certainly not for everyone, but when you think about the volatility of the BPDer and their stunted ability to regulate their own behavior in light of their emotions, it seems that this may be the most successful relationship model for them. 

i think the reason why Ella is so good at introspection is because she found someone she can actually be safe with. she now believes that she is not going to be abandoned. so now she is left with the same question that my wife was left with when she realized that i love her _despite_ her: "why does he love me? nobody has ever loved me enough to really accept me before..."

its a powerful question. it doesnt make sense. the only way to really understand the answer is to learn to love yourself. 

and that takes a LOT of introspection and acceptance...


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## PieceOfSky

Ella,

May I ask what age you remember first having feelings of self-hatred? And, is there some sort of therapy you know of that might have helped you back then (e.g. DBT).

Thanks for sharing.


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## john117

Hope Shimmers said:


> Ella, have you been officially diagnosed with BPD? (I'm sorry if you said this before and I missed it)
> 
> I find it interesting, because you are very self-aware (more than most BPD'ers are), but then again. I think your level of intelligence and resulting communication skills are almost second to none. And at age 23!
> 
> So you are a highly intelligent, very articulate person who knows a hell of a lot more about life than almost any 23 year old I have ever known. Yet, you admittedly are emotionally at a level that others may have surpassed by your age, in terms of relationships anyway.
> 
> Honestly, I have no idea. You are so self-aware, and by definition, BPDers don't see that they have BPD (thus why it's so hard to treat). You are a fascinating person.


Ella sounds like a high school friend of DD1. Same age, and diagnosed with BPD as a young adult. It fascinated her so much she is now pursuing a PhD in clinical psychology. Same clarity and level of introspection. Great kid too. Her essays on BPD "from the inside" are remarkable.

This self awareness at a young age is what allows one to persevere. I suspect that is the difference between success and failure - my partner had the traits but full BPD did not manifest itself till she was in her 40's. Not difficult to digest given the rampant spread of mental health issues in her immediate family. 

At a younger age your partner may also be willing to support / tolerate more. I did my best but having three decades on y'all makes it a bit less conducive to addressing it from my side as well. Especially if she firmly believes she's the healthy one...


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## As'laDain

john117 said:


> Ella sounds like a high school friend of DD1. Same age, and diagnosed with BPD as a young adult. It fascinated her so much she is now pursuing a PhD in clinical psychology. Same clarity and level of introspection. Great kid too. Her essays on BPD "from the inside" are remarkable.
> 
> This self awareness at a young age is what allows one to persevere. I suspect that is the difference between success and failure - my partner had the traits but full BPD did not manifest itself till she was in her 40's. Not difficult to digest given the rampant spread of mental health issues in her immediate family.
> 
> *At a younger age your partner may also be willing to support / tolerate more. I did my best but having three decades on y'all makes it a bit less conducive to addressing it from my side as well. Especially if she firmly believes she's the healthy one...*


you are probably correct in this. the first two years with my wife were horrendous. but, i was young, dumb, and full of ... ahem, youthful determination. :grin2:


and, to be honest, i would have one HELL of a time dealing with my niece if i hadn't already learned a basic set of skills dealing with my wife. my niece has been abandoned multiple times, abused by nearly everyone, raped, used, ignored, etc. she displays every single trait of BPD. but, she is turning around. she knows she has a home with us and we will not toss her aside. she knows that we will not let her walk all over us, we wont put up with her crap, and that we will do whatever we can to help her succeed. she is "growing up" fast. 

but honestly john, the way i see it, you don't have a lot of reason to do what i do. you don't seem to have any desire for your wife. as in, you really don't need her. and you certainly don't seem to find the idea of "playing the game" appealing. so, logically, i cannot see why you should ever even attempt it. what would you get out of it? what would be in it for you?

to me, the whole process of living with my wife is fascinating and fulfilling. call it the sociopath in me, but the idea of being able to manipulate my wife's very thoughts and actions, to the point where i am able to manipulate her into being able to live a happy life with or without me... well, its a hell of an ego boost. 

every time i go off to war i get to see how much i was able to change her way of thinking. i have deployed in support of three different wars, all combat arms... the first war i was in, she fell apart and ended up hospitalized twice while i was gone. the second one, she made it through and managed to hold everything together and was even productive while running our business, but the stress was tough on her. third one? lol, despite some hiccups at the beginning, she is kicking ass! 

i love her, i really do. i also love having the power to influence her in such a positive and lasting way. the game is like a dance to me. and i love the music! the journey really is the joy.


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## As'laDain

PieceOfSky said:


> Ella,
> 
> May I ask what age you remember first having feelings of self-hatred? And, is there some sort of therapy you know of that might have helped you back then (e.g. DBT).
> 
> Thanks for sharing.


that is an interesting question...

most of the people i have known with BPD learned the negative self view as a child, when the most influential people in their lives were telling teaching them the wrong lessons...

what kind of therapy can help someone in that position? 

eek, it would be like God telling you that you are worthless while billy-bob-down-the-street is telling you "nah, yer gud!"


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## PieceOfSky

As'laDain said:


> that is an interesting question...
> 
> most of the people i have known with BPD learned the negative self view as a child, when the most influential people in their lives were telling teaching them the wrong lessons...
> 
> what kind of therapy can help someone in that position?
> 
> eek, it would be like God telling you that you are worthless while billy-bob-down-the-street is telling you "nah, yer gud!"


As one develops, one becomes more capable of critical thinking, and having a supportive well-informed person outside the families dynamics can be a significant advantage; or so I'd think -- better than a consistent single-sourced message of inadequacy. As one becomes more separate and individuated (if those are the terms) parents become less than gods.

And, I suppose, some parents might pick up some lessons regarding their own behaviors via contact with therapist towards begin or end of child's session.

I don't know all the paths one can take to end up at stronger BPD traits. One young person I know experiences significant internal turmoil (and, for all I know this has nothing at all to do with and propensity to develop BPD traits). She has had, at birth and ever since, a more reactive temperament than others I've had the pleasure of knowing throughout their life. The self-hatred has been there at least since age 14. The emotions and harsh thoughts seem to come quickly and strongly and sometime seem to get turned inward on herself, reinforcing the self-contempt. 

I'm not familiar enough with DBT but my vague understanding is it teaches skills for slowing down the would-be emotional runaway train, and I'd think that sort of skill is a lot different and more powerful than some stranger telling you "nah, yer gud". 

But, I don't know. So, I'm very eager to hear of others' experiences.


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## EllaSuaveterre

Hope Shimmers said:


> Ella, have you been officially diagnosed with BPD? (I'm sorry if you said this before and I missed it)
> 
> I find it interesting, because you are very self-aware (more than most BPD'ers are), but then again. I think your level of intelligence and resulting communication skills are almost second to none. And at age 23!
> 
> So you are a highly intelligent, very articulate person who knows a hell of a lot more about life than almost any 23 year old I have ever known. Yet, you admittedly are emotionally at a level that others may have surpassed by your age, in terms of relationships anyway.
> 
> Honestly, I have no idea. You are so self-aware, and by definition, BPDers don't see that they have BPD (thus why it's so hard to treat). You are a fascinating person.



I have been as close to diagnosed as I can get. My therapist, the one I found shortly after the A, has said repeatedly that I, "have BPD traits" and is therefore doing DBT skills training with me. Given that so many therapists have a "don't tell the borderline" unwritten rule, I can pretty safely ascertain that I have it. She's come as close to outright saying, "You have BPD" as she dare.


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## EllaSuaveterre

PieceOfSky said:


> Ella,
> 
> May I ask what age you remember first having feelings of self-hatred? And, is there some sort of therapy you know of that might have helped you back then (e.g. DBT).
> 
> Thanks for sharing.


I was around 15 when I first realized that my dependence upon and extreme attachment to older, caring men (father figures) wasn't normal. Other girls wanted boyfriends; I only wanted someone to hold me and dry my tears and tell me it was okay and I was safe. I hated myself for needing something so badly, so very, painfully badly, that other people my age didn't even seem to be able to conceptualize. 

When I was 15, I was also a compulsive liar. I didn't realize that the real me was deserving of love and affection and attention, so I lied to my boyfriends about who I was. I made up entire personalities so they would love me. I know, though, that the world hated liars, and so I hated myself for that, too. 

Eventually, when I met my husband, I promised myself I'd show him the real me, consequences be hanged, because I really, really liked him. I wanted to be with him forever, and I knew I couldn't do that unless he knew the real me, who I was inside. I couldn't fake a personality forever. 

He said he'd been hurt by other women, and I felt like I could erase his insecurities by loving him unconditionally. I was touched by his honesty and vulnerability, and decided if he could be brave enough to be himself, so could I. So I did. It was so scary to confess things to him that no one else knows, but he has borne my secrets beautifully.


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## john117

Here's the thing, and keep in mind the last behavioral psych class I had was during the Reagan era  right now you have a balance of power that's skewed towards the "stronger" person in the relationship. That works great now because your needs are met, he handles your occasional ups and downs, soothes you, the whole nine yards.

You need to think how this could be sustained, or whether it even should be sustained as you grow older and face challenges. 

All the therapy in the world can't help you the first time you get laid off, or have a scuff with your in-laws, BFF, family death, children stress, etc. Your partner can help but eventually it will be up to you. 

(That's basically what happened in our case and it all went downhill from there about a decade ago).


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## Faithful Wife

Ella, I wanted to share this with you in case it helps or means anything...

I have a close friend who has BPD. I have known her since we were both in our 20's and we are in our 40's now. She has had a lot of drama in her life...many of the types of drama that a lot of BPD people experience...broken relationships, difficulty holding a job, emotional roller coasters, financial issues.

I have seen how her disorder has caused all of these things and how she has coped or not coped over the years. She has been through some devastating times, to say the least, including hospitalization more than once. I won't even go into it all because it it sad.

But here's the bigger picture of her that I have seen by knowing her so long and so well....she is a very loving and beautiful person. She honestly has a beautiful positive attitude. She cares deeply for so many people and they for her. She has been the best friend or sister type person to dozens in her lifetime. 

It is obvious to me now when she is in a BPD haze and when she isn't. So I know how to communicate with her based on that, I've been through her cycles enough times now. When she is on an upswing or is in a good cycle, her life gets better and better. If she can stay on that upswing for a year or so, she makes huge improvements in her mental state and the circumstances in her life.

When she swings down, things can go very bad very fast, and she really doesn't have anyone who can help her to the extent she needs it during those times. It is very rough on her, to say the least.

But over time now, she has figured out how to stay on the upswing as much as possible, how to get toxic people out of her life, and how to stay focused on her own lovely way of looking at the world positively. The longer she can do this, the more her life improves. Mostly she stays focused on trying to stay happy, whatever that looks like. Trying not to fall down into deep wells of depressive thoughts, tries to remind herself that she has a choice in what to think about.

If a spreadsheet of all of the kind or thoughtful deeds she has ever done could be made, it would be an incredible matrix of goodwill she has amassed in her life or karma bank. 

I think people can be nice or mean, and then add on to that whatever disorders or mental illnesses or weird quirks they have (we all have something). So if a nice person has BPD, they will struggle with the disorder of course, but their lives will ultimately be more fulfilling and peaceful than a mean person who has BPD or other disorder. The disorder doesn't set your basic inner outlook and nature. 

Peace to you, I sense you have a kind and beautiful soul like my friend.


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## EllaSuaveterre

john117 said:


> Here's the thing, and keep in mind the last behavioral psych class I had was during the Reagan era  right now you have a balance of power that's skewed towards the "stronger" person in the relationship. That works great now because your needs are met, he handles your occasional ups and downs, soothes you, the whole nine yards.
> 
> You need to think how this could be sustained, or whether it even should be sustained as you grow older and face challenges.
> 
> All the therapy in the world can't help you the first time you get laid off, or have a scuff with your in-laws, BFF, family death, children stress, etc. Your partner can help but eventually it will be up to you.
> 
> (That's basically what happened in our case and it all went downhill from there about a decade ago).


You're not wrong. You're really not wrong. Inevitably, eventually something is going to happen to my exceedingly fragile security bubble and it's going to burst and leave me in a precarious position. I try not to think about it, but it's what I'm thinking about more often than not. I have learned how to stop (most) of my shame spirals, but not the worry spirals, yet. In theory it should be easy, applying the same techniques, but the thoughts are there.

_
What if my husband has a revenge affair?

What if my husband loses his job and/or his financial security?

What if I can't find work after college?

What if I never get published?

What if someone in my husband's family dies and I have to pretend to be strong?

What if global warming/wars/politicians destroy the whole country?

What if my husband gets mortally ill?

What if he just stops loving me for no reason other than that I'm me?_

All the time. Non-stop. And I don't have a plan of action for any of it, because the more I try to get one together, the more stressed out I am and the more horrible possibilities I conjure up. So I don't have a plan. My plan, for now and for the future, is to keep taking my pills, move in with my parents if something happens financially, and keep breathing. That's it. And that is/will be hard enough. If any of that actually did happen, maybe if I kept myself alive long enough, a solution would just appear. Maybe not. 

But even thinking about the possibility of that happening is enough to lead me to suicidal ideation, so I try really hard not to think about it, and to tell myself that I will somehow keep myself alive if anything does go wrong.


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## john117

It's OK.... legitimate concerns there. Today's rage is about the daughters' eating habits. Granted, both are thin, but not the anorexic waifs she thinks they are. And the rage goes on. Good thing for noise cancelling headphones 😁

Generally these triggers are legitimate, but the scope and scale of the response is way out of typical. 

What I found works well is removal or mitigation of many triggers. As I said, watch the movie "goodbye Lenin". This worked for a while. But life cannot be mitigated away. Especially when one has reptilian ways of thinking.

For example, today's heated argument is not about my kids health; rather, it's about her not paying for any damage they may suffer down the road due to poor nutrition. So, you need to understand which of your concerns are legitimate and which, if any, are purely self serving.


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## EllaSuaveterre

john117 said:


> It's OK.... legitimate concerns there. Today's rage is about the daughters' eating habits. Granted, both are thin, but not the anorexic waifs she thinks they are. And the rage goes on. Good thing for noise cancelling headphones 😁
> 
> Generally these triggers are legitimate, but the scope and scale of the response is way out of typical.
> 
> What I found works well is removal or mitigation of many triggers. As I said, watch the movie "goodbye Lenin". This worked for a while. But life cannot be mitigated away. Especially when one has reptilian ways of thinking.
> 
> For example, today's heated argument is not about my kids health; rather, it's about her not paying for any damage they may suffer down the road due to poor nutrition. So, you need to understand which of your concerns are legitimate and which, if any, are purely self serving.



I see. Is your wife calmed down yet? If she is, can you tell me how you calmed her down? (Or if she's not, may I suggest you try asking her to put on her favorite pajamas and watch TV with her? Maybe make her some hot cocoa. That almost always helps me, at least for a few minutes.)


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## john117

My wife rarely calms down on her own, and the probability of her wearing PJ's and watching TV with me is about zero. 

Generally she'll work or exercise herself to exhaustion then calm down, at which point she's too wasted to lay down and watch TV. 

Usually she is very hard to go to sleep. The moment I watch TV with her she's asleep within 15 min. If I'm not there, hours. 

Eventually I found the cat a far better cuddle buddy than her 😁...


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## As'laDain

john117 said:


> My wife rarely calms down on her own, and the probability of her wearing PJ's and watching TV with me is about zero.
> 
> Generally she'll work or exercise herself to exhaustion then calm down, at which point she's too wasted to lay down and watch TV.
> 
> *Usually she is very hard to go to sleep. The moment I watch TV with her she's asleep within 15 min. If I'm not there, hours.*
> 
> Eventually I found the cat a far better cuddle buddy than her 😁...


wow. despite everything, she feels safe with you.


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## john117

As'laDain said:


> wow. despite everything, she feels safe with you.


Nope. Quite the contrary.

Hopefully when she gets the property division proposal around Easter her fears will be justified


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## peacem

Something I noticed quite early on with my BPD SIL, even before I knew about BPD, is that she is a grown woman who needs and craves parenting.

Her husband parents her (as though she is around 5 years old) by styling her hair, choosing her clothes, giving her pocket money for good behaviour, doing everything for her, being over protective, arranging friendships, cooking and cleaning for her. 

Even though her mother is in her mid 80's, she still treats her like a small, vulnerable child. SIL cannot care for anyone but needs to be cared for. I have even seen her children overtake her in maturity and have taken on a parental role in her life.

For years I found this all very inappropriate and weird, but now I have read so much about BPD I can now see that 'parenting' her as though she is a small child is what she wants, needs and craves. Whereas I would be highly patronised and irritated if my family were to treat me like this, it certainly seems to be comforting to her. I believe he has worked out this is his effective technique for soothing her.


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## As'laDain

john117 said:


> Nope. Quite the contrary.
> 
> Hopefully when she gets the property division proposal around Easter her fears will be justified


she may logically know that you are going to take half of the marital property, but she still feels safe enough to sleep in your presence, while she has trouble sleeping away from you.

if she didn't _feel_ safe with you, she wouldn't want you near her when its time to sleep.


sleep doesn't come easy with an enemy nearby. she may treat you like an enemy, but she _feels_ safe with you.


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## As'laDain

peacem said:


> Something I noticed quite early on with my BPD SIL, even before I knew about BPD, is that she is a grown woman who needs and craves parenting.
> 
> Her husband parents her (as though she is around 5 years old) by styling her hair, choosing her clothes, giving her pocket money for good behaviour, doing everything for her, being over protective, arranging friendships, cooking and cleaning for her.
> 
> Even though her mother is in her mid 80's, she still treats her like a small, vulnerable child. SIL cannot care for anyone but needs to be cared for. I have even seen her children overtake her in maturity and have taken on a parental role in her life.
> 
> For years I found this all very inappropriate and weird, but now I have read so much about BPD I can now see that 'parenting' her as though she is a small child is what she wants, needs and craves. Whereas I would be highly patronised and irritated if my family were to treat me like this, it certainly seems to be comforting to her. I believe he has worked out this is his effective technique for soothing her.



yep. that dynamic makes them feel safe. i do many of the same things with my wife. style her hair, pick out her clothes, arrange friendships, etc. i also give her tasks to help her gain self confidence in her own abilities. since i am gone a lot, (i have only been home for about nine months out of the last three years) its part of how i take care of her. i want to know she can take care of herself, and i want _her_ to know that she can take care of herself, so that she can let go of much of the anxiety of not having me around. the idea is to make her feel safe enough to grow, and encourage her to grow so as to empower her to live her life to the fullest.

her mother is learning that she can take care of herself. she used to constantly treat her like a child, but my wife has been telling her to back off lately when she oversteps.


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## john117

If you're talking physical safety, I'm pretty harmless. The cat is far more dangerous  than me. And she knows that. 

Emotional safety, she wouldn't know the meaning of it. 

I have wondered about what you wrote, tho. And really can't explain it. She's always been a crappy sleeper, for understandable reasons. But she's not any better sleeper without me. A couple days a week she has a conference call at 600 AM (with overseas). Since she works from home she can wake up at 550 am. Nope. 5 am. And by 8 pm she goes to bed. Now normal days she's gone at 1000 PM. 

The cat is gone this week and I'm sure the sleeping arrangements will not change. I require a lot less sleep than she does so...


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## VeryHurt

Ella ~

I found your initial post quite enlightening. My divorce was final four months ago today after 34 years with a very troubled person. 

He was never "officially" diagnosed with a BPD or specifically named a narcissist or sociopath but he exhibits "strong characteristics" of all all three. I was told many professional hesitate to medically declare someone with a personality disorder because too many "symptoms" overlap and very few "patients" will accept their diagnosis and then refuse to work many years in talk therapy. 

He was exceedingly selfish and self-centered. He lied more than he told the truth. He was a serial cheater. Played head games. He was COLD. AS. ICE.

Reading your words and sensing your "feelings" on your post, I did not detect someone with BPD. Of course, I've never met you and I am NOT a Psychiatrist or Psychologist.

Many of us are afraid to be alone. 

Many people have issues with abandonment or attachments. 

I detected a warmth in your post that I never witnessed in my ex-husband.

I wish you the very best.

VH


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## As'laDain

john117 said:


> If you're talking physical safety, I'm pretty harmless. The cat is far more dangerous  than me. And she knows that.
> 
> Emotional safety, she wouldn't know the meaning of it.
> 
> I have wondered about what you wrote, tho. *And really can't explain it*. She's always been a crappy sleeper, for understandable reasons. But she's not any better sleeper without me. A couple days a week she has a conference call at 600 AM (with overseas). Since she works from home she can wake up at 550 am. Nope. 5 am. And by 8 pm she goes to bed. Now normal days she's gone at 1000 PM.
> 
> The cat is gone this week and I'm sure the sleeping arrangements will not change. I require a lot less sleep than she does so...


lizard brain stuff. when i was in Baghdad, i had trouble sleeping unless i was sleeping on the ground. even when i had a bed available, i often chose to sleep on the ground because that's how i often slept growing up when i wanted to make sure that my mother would not come in and wake me up in a fit of rage. i would go outside and sleep in the woods. it was safer there.

the situation didnt make it logical, but the lizard brain remembers feeling safe on the ground.


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## john117

That's the thing. I offered a few "kids don't try this at home" examples and Ella does not strike me as a BPD.


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## As'laDain

john117 said:


> That's the thing. I offered a few "kids don't try this at home" examples and Ella does not strike me as a BPD.


there are two different types of people. those who are aware, and those who are not. for someone with BPD, its difficult for them to see that their emotions are not reality. but, it is still possible. it usually takes a hell of a lot of safety, or a hell of a painful experience. for my wife, it was a little of both. BPDers can learn awareness just like anyone else can. 

from the way you describe your wife, she sounds like she has the awareness level of a rock.


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## john117

Yea, I know. 










The self awareness part is the key.


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## EllaSuaveterre

john117 said:


> That's the thing. I offered a few "kids don't try this at home" examples and Ella does not strike me as a BPD.


-shrug- I dunno. My therapist seems to think so. I do have a lot of unresolved anger and vindictive thoughts that I'm very ashamed to talk about. I secretly have a lot of anger towards former friends who decided I was toxic (read: too needy and too emotionally dependent) and cut me out of their lives.


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## peacem

Ella - you seem to be (from what you post) a 'quiet' borderline. Acting 'in' rather than acting 'out'. From what I have read quiet borderlines are far more self-aware and respond better to therapy. These borderlines are often more preoccupied with 'love' than anger and hatred. They need to feel love as a way of validation - to fill the chronic feelings of emptiness.


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## john117

EllaSuaveterre said:


> -shrug- I dunno. My therapist seems to think so. I do have a lot of unresolved anger and vindictive thoughts that I'm very ashamed to talk about. I secretly have a lot of anger towards former friends who decided I was toxic (read: too needy and too emotionally dependent) and cut me out of their lives.


Weeeeellll... BPD aims its actions more towards people closer than friends, people you interact with day in and day out. 

As a young adult you're bound to be in a high drama environment at some point, be it bff's, college, work buddies... 

I would look to potential BPD behaviors towards immediate people. There's plenty of people I can't stand too. But they don't get into my thinking. They simply don't. 

BPD being a spectrum disorder you may want to get some more details.


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## sammie11

This is a super old post, but if anyone is still there reading this I am curious to know how you came to know that you have BPD? My (ex) husband was blatantly verbally and emotionally abusive and went as far as to hit me twice. He often told me that I had issues and that he thought I was narcissistic or had BPD. My father was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder and from what I remember of him he was completely oblivious. I have had a lifelong fear of being that person...the evil one who is utterly oblivious. In my mind, I accepted my own faults and tried my best to correct them, and I know that I feel love and compassion towards other people...but it is scary and crazy making to hear time and again from my husband that I am mentally ill and incapable of love. Stories and insight?


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## EllaSuaveterre

I discovered it after I had an affair, the other man gave me an ultimatum, and I was willing to kill myself to get out of it. I was hospitalized and from there doctors put together the comorbid mental illnesses and history of self-harm and suddenly we know why I never outgrew the angsty teen phase.


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## Red Sonja

sammie11 said:


> My (ex) husband was blatantly verbally and emotionally abusive and went as far as to hit me twice. He often told me that I had issues and that he thought I was narcissistic or had BPD. My father was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder and from what I remember of him he was completely oblivious. I have had a lifelong fear of being that person...the evil one who is utterly oblivious. In my mind, I accepted my own faults and tried my best to correct them, and I know that I feel love and compassion towards other people...but it is scary and crazy making to hear time and again from my husband that I am mentally ill and incapable of love. Stories and insight?


This is what narcissistic people do; they determine your fears … in your case, fear of being like your father … and exploit them. They also determine what you value the most and then withhold it. And, they are masters at projecting their own characteristics and behaviors onto others.

These are both control tactics designed to keep you confused and doubting yourself. Don’t fall for it. The only way to deal with an NPD or other cluster B personality is no contact. None. Or, in the case of a relative where you have no choice but to have contact, then you must use “gray rock” techniques (Google it) although that is very difficult to do consistently for most people.

All Cluster B’s personalities have either no empathy or selective empathy; they are incapable of introspection and they do not care how their behavior affects others.


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## peacem

sammie11 said:


> This is a super old post, but if anyone is still there reading this I am curious to know how you came to know that you have BPD? My (ex) husband was blatantly verbally and emotionally abusive and went as far as to hit me twice. He often told me that I had issues and that he thought I was narcissistic or had BPD. My father was diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder and from what I remember of him he was completely oblivious. I have had a lifelong fear of being that person...the evil one who is utterly oblivious. In my mind, I accepted my own faults and tried my best to correct them, and I know that I feel love and compassion towards other people...but it is scary and crazy making to hear time and again from my husband that I am mentally ill and incapable of love. Stories and insight?


I may be wrong in this...but I have read that those who are questioning whether they have a PD almost always will not. Those that do have a PD do not have enough introspection that questions their behaviour and that is why it is very difficult to get those people diagnosed. If they hurt someone - well that is just the fault of the hurtee for being sensitive. If they assault someone - well they made them do it. If they have an inappropriate melt-down at a wedding - well that actually didn't happen and if it did they were just standing up for themselves. If they cannot hold down a job for more than a few months, that is because nobody appreciates how talented they are...and so on and so forth. So a good rule of thumb to see if you have a PD is just to consider moments of your past when you have been able to admit fault and either put it right or learned from it. Most of us have done that and probably do it on a small scale daily. 

:smile2:


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## WildMustang

Sammy11- I have to tell you, as someone who was married for 28 years to a man who has the full "Personality Disorder" and is a "Covert Narcissist", one of the things they often do, is they project their own issues onto you, because their "ego" is too fragile to admit they have those issues. They have to project their own undesirable issues onto someone else because they cannot bear to see those traits in themselves. It is just too painful for them. They cannot see it in themselves. They are not capable of seeing it in themselves. This provides much needed relief for them. They have to project it onto someone.

Also, with your father being diagnosed as having the full blown "Personality Disorder" as a "Narcissist", you probably subconsciously self selected your husband because he had similar behaviors and mannerisms as your Dad which were "familiar" to you.

I know that doesn't seem to make sense, because why on earth would you consciously choose a husband with the same destructive traits your father had??? It seems a person would choose someone as a spouse who does not have those destructive traits.

The answer is, it is a subconscious thing that you are not even aware you are doing. Something about the way your ex husband behaved or acted in your early getting to know each other phase, was "familiar" to you on a subconscious level (similar to your Dad), and so it seemed "normal" to you, even though on a conscious level, you would have avoided such a person who was as "oblivious" and destructive as your Dad.

This is a very common thing, to choose partners who have "familiar" traits as your parents, even if those traits are not adaptive or are abusive. 

Also, another thing people with the "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" do, is they try to make you believe YOU are crazy. They take gaslighting to a whole new level, like doing things and then claiming they did not do it, or that you did it, and insisting they saw and remember you doing it and you must have forgotten and you are NUTS because you don't recall...they insidiously make you question your own sanity. That is why they call it "crazy making" behavior, because you start to question your own perceptions and you question reality. If someone tells you something often enough and insistently enough, you will start to believe it, even if it isn't true! (Sometimes, cops get people to admit to crimes they did not commit by insisting for several hours of "interrogation" that they committed the crime). It is a form of brain washing. Over time, the Narcissist makes you believe maybe they are right and you really are crazy...when all along, they are the crazy one...it is another way they project their own behavior onto you, because it is too painful for their "ego" to admit they are the one with the issue.

I am so happy to hear of another survivor! Glad you got out! Congrats on that!


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