# Wife hates oral but wants to change?



## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

My wife and I have been together for over ten years and have always had a fulfilling and openly communicative sex life, except in one area: me going down on her. Now I personally love eating out and have had a lot of success with it in past relationships. She, on the other hand, has always hated it, with me or any other past partner. She says that she goes numb and can't feel anything, and often freezes if I try. I've tried approaching in different ways, tried different methods, pressures, directions, etc to see if I can please her the way I desperately want to. She enjoys giving oral herself, and is damn good at it, and I just want to return the favor but this issue continuously gets in our way. 

There have been several times that it's actually ended our session with her crying or suddenly silent and we've had a couple of vicious fights over it simply from our inability to figure out what's going on. Now, I do know that she has PTSD from several past sexual abuses that stemmed from childhood into teenhood, and I am well aware that this is more than likely the root of the problem, but we have no idea how to approach it. It can be as bad as me feeling hopeful that I might catch her off-guard and go down on her and she panics and can't come down from her trigger until the next day. She has also explained to me that she often finds herself automatically dissociating when I try which is the absolute opposite of what I want to be causing for her. I know I should have accepted this being off the table from the beginning of our relationship, but it is a large factor of how I enjoy pleasing partners and she does vocalize the desire to learn to overcome her PTSD response to oral sex. I know that I could eventually get over giving oral if it came down to it, but I don't want to fully give up before we've explored every option. 

So my question to everyone is whether any of you have any experience with this as either the receiver or giver, and if there is any advice regarding how either me or my wife can approach this. She does get regular counseling and for the most part has a good handle on her disorder, but neither of us want this to turn into a gap in our sex life that might become more damaging than it should. She has already been way too patient with me pushing for it over the last decade, but I can tell its taking a toll on her and our sex life. I love her and it kills me that not only can I not seem to share this pleasure approach with her but that in trying I'm actually hurting her.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Why oh why are you putting this pressure on her when its clearly something she hates? Whether its to do with the sexual abuse or not(and it hasn't put her off all the other things you do so it may not be), its something that does nothing for her and that even upsets her so why do you just carry on the pressure? By doing this you are making it far worse and probably making her feel that she isn't good enough or that there is something wrong with her. Poor woman. 

You mention that you want to 'return the favour', yet she has told you many times that she doesn't want it so how is that giving her any favour?

She has been very patient considering the way you have acted, but the time has come to think of her and not yourself and stop going on and on about it and love and accept her as she is and enjoy what you have. There is NO reason at all why this needs to become a gap in your sex life or become damaging at all if you change your attitude and stop making it all about you and what YOU want. Its one thing, let it go and stop making it such a major issue. By ignoring her strongly held feelings on it and carrying on the pressure, you are not treating her with love or respect and eventually she will have had enough and may stop wanting sex with you at all. 

Accept that for her its a no no and move on. 
There are things that people don't like in sex, this is hers.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

She needs to see a counselor. Even if both of you are working at it. 

Article that may help your wife - https://forgivenwife.com/archives-unbearable-lessons/

I'm in the same boat, http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/204514-what-do-i-do-am-i-unreasonable.html 

My wife will now rarely offer to receiver oral. Find a good sex therapist.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*How was she about receiving oral in your premarital courtship days?

If she was receptive to it then, then why the big change after marriage?

I'd really hate to think that she's running some kind of a "bait and switch" on you!

Unless there was a more than viable explanation for it, its absence from the marriage bed would definitely be a dealbreaker, at least in Ol' Arbs book!*


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

She was adamant about not enjoying it prior to marriage and has never given me any indication that she has ever or would ever enjoy it. It's just a personal hang up of my own and she's been trying to overcome it strictly for my benefit which is both overly kind in my opinion and horribly saddening.

I've been equally trying to figure out why it is that I can't seem to drop the subject when it's been made clear that it's something that quite frankly makes her shut down entirely.


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## Saibasu (Nov 3, 2016)

Few things : 
1) if she doesn't WANT to overcome it, then you need to back right the f#$& off, immediately. 

2) if SHE WANTS to get passed it as a way of "healing" there are some things you could try. Does she trust you? Like REALLY REALLY trust you? If yes, then try dampening her other senses so the environment doesn't trigger her as well. Blind fold her, and have her wear a pair of headphones with some of her favorite (sexy if she has them) tunes.playing. it will take the stress of the awkward quiet out of the equation and give her something else to focus on besides just the sexual act. Again this is my suggestion ONLY if SHE wants to get passed it. Otherwise, see #1 above.
3) a sex therapist could go a long way for you both.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> She was adamant about not enjoying it prior to marriage and has never given me any indication that she has ever or would ever enjoy it. It's just a personal hang up of my own and she's been trying to overcome it strictly for my benefit which is both overly kind in my opinion and horribly saddening.
> 
> I've been equally trying to figure out why it is that I can't seem to drop the subject when it's been made clear that it's something that quite frankly makes her shut down entirely.


So you knew this going into marriage. Eyes wide open. If I were you I'd drop it. You are the one damaging things.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

I just wanted to post a quick note that I've been sharing this post with my wife and that we both really appreciate the feedback. She says she's very grateful for the support as well as the couple of ideas that have been offered.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

(Editlease note this is a true story told solely to illustrate for the wife of the OP she is not alone, and she might find peace of mind if she finds good psychiatric help. Many people obviously revile me, but that does not change the past)

My wife and I have had a very wild sex life. Sex is a big deal to me. She knew that right away.

I would have had sex with her on our second date, but her family has religion and chaperoned us on most dates, so it was postponed for a while. When I did get to finally have sex with her she requested I not go down on her. I told her she could put her clothes back on and we would break up unless she complied. I told her I would never accept any limitations about sex. She complied. She was not happy, so I didn't try to get her to enjoy it, and did not perform cunnilingus on her for long.

So it went in our marriage. I would enjoy it, she didn't, I indulged myself occasionally, she complied.

(Edit: This is not a complete story, but no story can be. Again this is being told to show the trials Mary went through, and the result she found after she finally accepted good professional help specifically trained to deal with her issues.)

My wife is submissive. I am Dominant. 

Just after our 5th wedding anniversary, in 1978, she allowed a friend to seduce her. No idea why, but some people here have actually helped me get a better picture of why.

In trying to find out from my wife why she allowed this to happen I discovered my wife lied to me, about things. This, that, the other thing. She lied. And lied, and lied, and lied. I emotionally abused her for 15 months trying to get her to stop lying to me. Then I discovered she is a bit more different than even I thought she is.

I had pushed her to go to counseling but she kept refusing and said she would simply not talk to them.

After I discovered she had a streak of a bit of masochism and enjoyed bondage, I knew something was more different about her than I had ever suspected.

And I discovered she enjoyed being forced to have sex. But I had trouble with that, myself. However, that brings us back to cunnilingus. 

(Edit: It has been pointed out I should clean this up to remove all the ugly bits, but I think avoiding the ugly bits is whitewashing, and not as helpful as accepting that life was ugly at times. I have mentioned on multiple occasions that during the two years following my wife's affair I did in fact abuse her. It is perhaps similar to what the wife of the OP is experiencing now. Hence I left it in this essay.)

I took out a lot of my anger towards her in forcing oral sex on her.

That same time I decided asking her any more questions was fruitless, since she always lied. I think, too, realizing she must be broken in some way, which I still associate with her masochism, made me think pursuing asking any more questions was useless.

And immediately after putting all this together, I discovered in her particular case bondage and oral sex went extremely well together. I do not recommend this for anyone else. This worked for her because she is submissive and because of her particular shattered nature. I do not recommend it, it just is the way it was, and I am telling it the way it was.

(Edit: Obviously I should have said "I do not recommend this for anyone else" at the beginning of every paragraph. However, I do recommend people try to get their loved ones involved in seeking professional mental health care when it is needed.)

I did keep trying to get my wife to go to counseling. She said she would not talk.

Four years later our son had a problem at school. The school recommended family counseling. I used that as an opportunity to extort her into going to counseling. She made good on her promise to say nothing. She was referred to Individual Counseling. She refused to speak. Referred to a psychologist. There may have been a few in there, hard to remember for sure. 

I remember one in particular she finally did speak with. A woman I chose who was highly qualified and specialized in dealing sympathetically with Christian women. I had no idea what my wife needed, but she had a religious background so I was willing to try that.

Mary just lied her ass off. After a month or two I was invited in, and told everything was fine, and I should accept Mary being so submissive to me. Mary obviously did not open up to that psychologist.

I took Mary to a psychiatrist. After several sessions he recommended I take her to a colleague of his who specialized in hypnotherapy. After a few months with that psychiatrist I was invited into a session again.

Mary was diagnosed by both shrinks as a pathological liar. I was told she was sexually abused as a child starting at the age of nine. He told me she suffered some worse trauma they were unable to uncover, which seemed to be the actual cause of her illness. They held out no hope for a cure.

Later Mary told me the way she was groomed when she was nine was by having cunnilingus performed on her.

In my wife's case the sexual abuse as a child was not the worst abuse she suffered, in her opinion. For some reason she did not suffer too badly when I triggered her. In her case completely removing her ability to resist me, bondage, simply binding her by wrist cuffs, released her completely from all her guilt and made her free to enjoy it. And she really enjoys it. But as I said, she suffered what she considered a far worse trauma, which shattered her.

She was not able to tell me anything, ever, before the therapy. Which she finally was forced to undergo 12 years after we got married.

The trauma which had caused her illness, caused her to become a pathological liar, took 8 years of psychotherapy to uncover. 

Since 1992 Mary has been very happy, and totally free from all the effects of all her childhood horrors, except the pathological lying, and the shattered memory. The memory issue she actually has used to her advantage. After she remembered the torture she had suffered, she quickly suppressed what she couldn't handle, but kept all the rest, the good parts, to heal herself.

The shrinks said whatever works. Mary has been the happiest person I know since finally recovering the memories they stole from her.

I have no idea if any of her story can help you. We hope your wife seeks professional help. It can help. It is probably vital to your recovery.

Mary reads everything I write.

(Edit: I could have abridged the entire post to make it sanitary, but life isn't. Mary's disease is a serious disease and very difficult to deal with, although we have figured out how to manage it well. I don't think avoiding all the ugly bits makes everything okay. There are always plenty more ugly bits for people to share with just their therapists.

Further, I thought the purpose of this post, and the correlations I have added edits to point out were obvious. But Mary says they may only be obvious to me. She's so kind.)


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> She needs to see a counselor. Even if both of you are working at it.
> 
> Article that may help your wife - https://forgivenwife.com/archives-unbearable-lessons/
> 
> ...


The OP said she was already getting counselling. Why does she need a sex therapist for something she doesn't like? They clearly have a varied sex life without that one thing.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> There have been several times that it's actually ended our session with her crying or suddenly silent and we've had a couple of vicious fights over it simply from our *inability to figure out what's going on.* *Now, I do know that she has PTSD from several past sexual abuses that stemmed from childhood into teenhood,* and I am well aware that this is more than likely the root of the problem, but we have no idea how to approach it.


You know she was sexually abused, yet you can't figure out the problem?

She hates it so much that she cries?? Yet you continue to pressure her?? Wtf is wrong with you? Oh my god!



WilliamM said:


> I would have had sex with her on our second date, but her family has religion and chaperoned us on most dates, so it was postponed for a while. When I did get to finally have sex with her she requested I not go down on her. *I told her she could put her clothes back on and we would break up unless she complied.* I told her I would never accept any limitations about sex. She complied. She was not happy, so I didn't try to get her to enjoy it, and did not perform cunnilingus on her for long.


Omfg. I'm speechless.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> She was adamant about not enjoying it prior to marriage and has never given me any indication that she has ever or would ever enjoy it. It's just a personal hang up of my own and she's been trying to overcome it strictly for my benefit which is both overly kind in my opinion and horribly saddening.
> 
> I've been equally trying to figure out why it is that I can't seem to drop the subject when it's been made clear that it's something that quite frankly makes her shut down entirely.


Therein lies the problem, its YOUR hang up not hers. If you don't let this go you may end up causing severe damage to the marriage and causing her to stop wanting intimacy at all. 
If there was something that I wanted that made my husband react so strongly,I would not ask twice and I would never put any pressure on him, that's just so wrong, manipulative and completely selfish. If I had been pressured for 10 years to do something that made me shut down and that I didn't like at all, I would have lost all respect for my husband. 

Be thankful that you have a wife who loves you, a good sex life and a happy marriage, you are very blessed. Let this go and stop thinking about what you did with past girlfriends.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

WilliamM said:


> My wife and I have had a very wild sex life. Sex is a big deal to me. She knew that right away.
> 
> I would have had sex with her on our second date, but her family has religion and chaperoned us on most dates, so it was postponed for a while. When I did get to finally have sex with her she requested I not go down on her. I told her she could put her clothes back on and we would break up unless she complied. I told her I would never accept any limitations about sex. She complied. She was not happy, so I didn't try to get her to enjoy it, and did not perform cunnilingus on her for long.
> 
> So it went in our marriage. I would enjoy it, she didn't, I indulged myself occasionally, she complied..


I don't know much of your story, but you sound like an awful person.

I've dated guys like you who've tried to bully me about sex.

You knew prior to marriage what her preferences were, and she knew prior to marriage that you were a bully.

You don't sound like a healthy D/s. You sound like a tormentor who coerces an insecure woman.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

frusdil said:


> You know she was sexually abused, yet you can't figure out the problem?
> 
> She hates it so much that she cries?? Yet you continue to pressure her?? Wtf is wrong with you? Oh my god!
> 
> ...


Same here. Its abusive behaviour from both these men. Forcing yourself on a woman when she has clearly shown her unhappiness and distress is actually rape. 
Makes me very grateful for the husband I have who would never act that way.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

minimalME said:


> I don't know much of your story, but you sound like an awful person.
> 
> I've dated guys like you who've tried to bully me about sex.
> 
> ...


He is an abuser and I have no idea why he is allowed to post here about the years of abusing his poor wife. :frown2:


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Therein lies the problem, its YOUR hang up not hers. *If you don't let this go you may end up causing severe damage to the marriage* and causing her to stop wanting intimacy at all.


I'd say he already has. If I hated a sex act so much that I cried when my husband forced me to do it, just one time, that would damage our marriage permanently. 



Diana7 said:


> Same here. Its abusive behaviour from both these men. Forcing yourself on a woman when she has clearly shown her unhappiness and distress is actually rape.
> *Makes me very grateful for the husband I have who would never act that way*.


Oh god me too. I'm going to go and hug him right now.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Mary wanted marriage. I specified my criteria. That was a mountain I was willing to die on.

I told her before we had sex. 

I did not say oh well, and have sex, then dump her. I did not ignore it and marry her, then complain about it.

I told her it was something I would not accept in a wife.

I could have simply broken up with her without a word, without telling her why.

Instead I told her that was something I would not live with. I communicated what I would not accept. Then the choice was hers. 

I absolutely felt it was not right for me to proceed to take her virginity once we came to that impasse. I refused to do that to her.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

minimalME said:


> I don't know much of your story, but you sound like an awful person.
> 
> I've dated guys like you who've tried to bully me about sex.
> 
> ...


I fail to see how my stating my preference is bullying. I offered to take her home. I made no negative remarks about her at all.

I told her that was something I could not accept in a wife.

Is it truly bullying for me to have my own opinions about what I want in a wife? Or am I not allowed that?

She was not my wife at the time. We were only dating. We were interviewing each other.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

WilliamM said:


> I fail to see how my stating my preference is bullying. I offered to take her home. I made no negative remarks about her at all.
> 
> I told her that was something I could not accept in a wife.
> 
> ...


Right.

You were interviewing each other with your clothes off, and her legs were spread, about to offer you her virginity, and you demanding oral, and her saying no, and you saying get dressed then.

You don't see that at all as being intimidating and humiliating???

What a horrific spin you've managed.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Should I have had sex with her instead?

I certainly felt that would have been wrong.

So I told her to get dressed, because I wouldn't accept that in a wife.

I suppose I could have lied.

After all, she has lied to me thousands of times since then.

One thing is certain, I was not going to go ahead and have sex with her once I knew we had an incompatibility which I would not be able to get over. It was not something I would just overlook.

I was not going to use her for sex, and then tell her it was over.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

good lord people, give @WilliamM a break! its not like he forced his wife into sex and then dropped her like a rock. he spent YEARS trying to get her to get the kind of help that she needed to be able to heal, which she has done to a large degree. 

calling him a bully and a rapist is NOT helpful. 

my wife is also a CSA survivor. she was also not a fan of receiving oral. the exact same issues mentioned already in this thread: she dissociate, go numb, panic attacks, etc. or, at least she used to. 

she used to have panic attacks in the middle of sex every damned time. eventually, i was able to form a pretty descriptive picture of what was done to her by paying attention to her reactions. she finally told me about it. my wife and i have been in a D/S relationship for about 6 years now. i didn't just decide that those sex acts that were used to abuse her as a child were off the table. NOPE! we did more of it, while i had her talk me through her emotions, while i spent time normalizing her emotional responses. 

if we just stuck with the D/s thing, then she could have just enjoyed it in those contexts. being "forced" basically takes the responsibility off of them to engage and allows them to simply experience it. in a consensual D/S setting, it is the only way they know HOW to enjoy sex. that doesn't mean that they cannot learn other ways to enjoy sex, they just have to learn how to get out of their own way. 

in my wifes case, i triggered her many, many times, while walking her through the emotions and the past crap it reminded her of. until eventually, it didn't trigger her anymore. and then, we spent a lot of time reassosiating new feelings and memories to the same situations that triggered her before. lots of fantasizing, role play, more fantasizing, more role play, etc. until the act itself reminds her of the fun times instead of only the past traumatic events. 

OP, my advice to you: normalize, normalize, normalize. if your wife is willing to keep subjecting herself to those horrible feelings in order to learn how to enjoy oral, then you have to accept what she feels in the moment as being NORMAL! as in, its ok that she feels it! if she cannot get to the point of being completely ok with how she feels in the moment, she will probably not be able to change the feeling. which means YOU have to be ok with what she is feeling too. as in, its ok for her to feel whatever the hell she feels. your job is NOT to change what she feels, its to encourage her and praise her for not giving up. you should be very proud of your wife for not giving up. many women would have given up by now.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> He is an abuser and I have no idea why he is allowed to post here about the years of abusing his poor wife. :frown2:


who knows, maybe its because he has, with a fairly good amount of success, overcome an issue that most people simply have no idea how to overcome in a marriage. 


see, this is why so few people have any idea what to expect with trauma survivors. whenever we talk about our experiences and struggles with them, someone inevitably calls us abusive.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> good lord people, give @WilliamM a break! its not like he forced his wife into sex and then dropped her like a rock. he spent YEARS trying to get her to get the kind of help that she needed to be able to heal, which she has done to a large degree.
> 
> calling him a bully and a rapist is NOT helpful.
> 
> ...


This is just one of many reason why William is an abuser

"I took out a lot of my anger towards her in forcing oral sex on her."

Here is another

"I emotionally abused her for 15 months trying to get her to stop lying to me."

He gets away with it because his wife has no self respect or self esteem. She thinks this is what she deserves, as with many abused women.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> who knows, maybe its because he has, with a fairly good amount of success, overcome an issue that most people simply have no idea how to overcome in a marriage.
> 
> 
> see, this is why so few people have any idea what to expect with trauma survivors. whenever we talk about our experiences and struggles with them, someone inevitably calls us abusive.


I know many abuse survivors, some in my own family, and I do know that being abused again by their husbands is appalling.They take it because thats all they know and they usually have no self esteem.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

There is no doubt I abused my wife horribly during the two years after she had an affair. That is true. I have said I danced with the devil. I cannot change that. With her lies and my response to her lying we were completely toxic for each other during that time. I hope no one else ever goes through anything like that.

As for our dating, I believe I had the right, even the obligation, to specify my needs. As soon as the issue came up I told her my need, and told her it was something I would not compromise on. I was getting ready to take her home.

The only fault that might be laid upon me is the fact I allowed her to change her mind. 

But when I wrote that sentence Mary got angry. She says she had the right to decide for herself whether or not to allow me to proceed once I told her it was that important to me. She thinks the idea I should have refused to allow her to change her mind is crazy. She was an adult and could make up her own mind.

I had seen Mary callously berate a guy for opening a door for her. Mary was never demure or retiring around other people. She was openly insulting to her brother in law all the time. Her family worked hard to keep her under control. She was rebellious and outspoken. 

I would not have thought to pat her on head and tell her I couldn’t let her change her mind. I did actually consider turning her down anyway, but she was insistent she wanted me to make love to her. 

Her response to being eaten out at that time is best described as boredom. She put up with it to get what she wanted. Mary never triggered negatively. She never told me what happened to her until after she spent time with the psychiatrist, twelve years after we were married.

But by that time having cunnilingus performed on her was her favorite sex. Her wrist cuffs are an integral part of her. 

I could speculate why. But she does not like it when I do that. She tells me to just shut up and enjoy the ride.

She really hates armchair psychologists.

Go to real doctors. They can help.

Mary liked her psychiatrists. They helped her tremendously. It is impossible to overstate how much they helped.


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## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

Is there any chance that she has a repressed memory of a childhood sexual abuse? I ask because I knew someone years ago with almost the exact same issue. His wife HATED getting oral even if she had an orgasm. He told me if she came that would make her cry. She went to counseling and it turns out she had repressed memories of a family member doing that to her when she was maybe 2-3 years old. Once the therapist helped recover those memories she became conscious of a long period of sexual abuse by that family member when she was a toddler. I guess they helped her and in the end she gave and received oral with no hesitation and loved it.

I'm not saying that is the case with your wife but it could be and she might not remember it.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Accept that for her its a no no and move on.
> *There are things that people don't like in sex, this is hers.*


Yes........

And there are things in life that we do not like or approve.

Yet.

*Yet, we push our views hard, insistent that other listen, hopefully fold and obey. *

When alone, no one watching, grab a mirror, look at your image and recite the words 'bolded' above.
What, what is it thou see?

I did this, do it still, occasionally in error.

Note: This reply is to all, to Diana, to OP to others, reading this.

Just Sayin'

SunCMars-


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

The Original Poster did say his wife is a Childhood Sexual Abuse survivor. She finds herself unable to enjoy oral sex. There is some mention of the idea she may want to find a way to get past her issues and learn to enjoy receiving oral sex.

I recommend she see a psychiatrist who specializes in treating CSA survivors. Not just a counselor.

I post the story about Mary and I because there are some similarities. Mary is a Childhood Sexual Abuse survivor. She didn’t trigger negatively but didn’t enjoy oral sex when I met her. 

Mary has gotten over so many issues I find it incredible. It is because we found the right help for her. 

You can’t do it alone. She needs serious help.

My wife is bisexual and came onto a girlfriend when she was eleven years old. She thought sex was a normal thing, since she was a victim of CSA from nine years old. The church elders put her through Conversion Therapy to break her mind. 

They preached to her about going to hell for even thinking about sex, and then they beat her senseless. They did that every night for months until they shattered her mind. Then they kept doing it. 

That’s what she and her psychiatrist finally recovered from Mary’s repressed memories in 1992, after 8 years of therapy. 

Mary’s panic attacks stopped. Her libido went through the roof. She was freed from everything they did to her, the CSA and the beatings. 

Yes, we can never cure pathological lying. But my God, the difference in her life is astounding. And it was like flipping a switch.

Only her doctors were able to help her.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

She hates it. So knock it the hell off.

Sorry, man, but your actions don't engender a lot of sympathy. On this specific topic, you sound like a bit of an ass.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Yes, lick and smooch her other set of lips..
The higher ones, visible, red painted and plump.

Often and repeatedly.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

By the way.

I post because I think encouraging people to seek psychiatric help is a good thing in many cases. Also to glean the occasional excellent bit of advice regarding my wife.

I am not a psychologist. I am an engineer. Machines make sense to me. 

Dealing with my wife’s issues has taught me how truly important psychiatry is. I will never be one, but I recognize we need them as surely as we need heart surgeons.

It took me years to recognize just how desperately my wife, we, needed help. If I can help others get there faster then I think I have been useful.

To the OP, and your wife. Is there a chance your wife might post on her own login? Seeing this issue in her own words would be better.

My wife will never post. She was done with analysis in ‘92 and has been quite happy ever since.


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## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

Cletus said:


> She hates it. So knock it the hell off.
> 
> Sorry, man, but your actions don't engender a lot of sympathy. On this specific topic, you sound like a bit of an ass.


Yes, knock it off. If she was a survivor of kidnapping and abuse, would you force her into bondage play because you wanted to "train" her to like it? Because a previous lover had liked it? 

I was with you in your first paragraph - I love giving oral and used to consider myself quite good at it, as my SOs always came and it was a regular part of our lovemaking. But Mrs Wedge doesn't care for it - never has she says. Now, she doesn't hate it, doesn't try to stop me or CRY for Pete's sake (WTF man?), but I can't enjoy giving if she's just going to lie there like a dead fish. But I would never do anything that made her cry or withdraw from me. 

It sounds like your wife suffered some sort of abuse specific to receiving oral. Why would you force her to relive that? And while Mr and Mrs WilliamM have worked out their kinky, damaged, twisted relationship - don't use them as a role model. Stop abusing your wife in the name of love.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Hey now. 

My wife and I can be a role model in one respect. 

The psychiatric care she received.

She saw some counselors, some psychologists, and four different psychiatrists. She spent 8 years with the one she felt most comfortable with.

We think people should be willing to reach out for help in order to find peace of mind.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Maxwedge 413 said:


> *It sounds like your wife suffered some sort of abuse specific to receiving oral.* Why would you force her to relive that?


Not necessarily.

I think it's a normal response to cry when someone is doing something to you that you've objected to and asked them not to do.

To be truly forced (not role playing) would be very distressful all on its own.


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## stiiky (Jul 29, 2017)

It’s clear that she has some negative feelings about receiving oral. You can’t dive into it thinking she will be okay with it and arguing about it isn’t going to help. Knowing she has PTSD, you have to approach this as an anxiety disorder. This will take time and you cannot by any means push her too far nor get mad at her for it. 

Try to find at what point she begins to become anxious. Is it only when you try to give her oral? Is it when you put your hands in that area? Is she comfortable using sex toys? Ask her to tell you when she starts to become uncomfortable so you can identify when you need to stop. 

Once you identify when she becomes anxious, then you can come up with a plan to implement baby steps. You will want to execute steps that are small enough to bring her to a slightly uncomfortable feeling but comfortable enough where she will continue. Don’t push it to the point where she will want to stop. 

Depending on where her stress point is, you could start out with kissing and rubbing on her abdomen or outer thighs. Then slowly work your way a little closer to the vaginal region but don’t linger too long. Come back out and don’t try it again during the same session so that way she’s not getting to the point where she needs to stop. That’s just an example but it really depends on where her stress point is.

Practice one baby step at a time. Only proceed to the next baby step when you can see that she is comfortable with the last step. 

Keep in mind this can be over the course of several weeks if not more so be patient.


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## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

WilliamM said:


> Hey now.
> 
> My wife and I can be a role model in one respect.
> 
> ...


Yes, that sounds fine. But the original thread quickly broke down into you (seeming to be) telling him to force her to like it, vs Diana7 and friends calling you a rapist. My first wife was physically, emotionally and sexually abused from 7-18 yo. She was pretty open with me about it and had Zero sexual hang-ups, but we were pretty deep into our marriage before I understood just how eFFFed-up she was because of it all. While you seem to have a working relationship with Mary, it does NOT sound like a healthy one. Forgive me, but you write about it quite often and you both sound damaged and or damaging. The OP seems to have a loving wife and a good sexual relationship with her, EXCEPT that he knows she was forced to engage in oral against her will as a youngster, and yet he insists on tongue-raping her! Hoping that she will learn to like it! 

Going to an appropriate phsychyatrist is good. Forcing her to endure it, without her _wanting_ to try it is bad.


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## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

minimalME said:


> Not necessarily.
> 
> I think it's a normal response to cry when someone is doing something to you that you've objected to and asked them not to do.
> 
> To be truly forced (not role playing) would be very distressful all on its own.


OP's original post states that she enjoys other forms of lovemaking with him but hates this because of PTSD derived from childhood sexual abuse.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I suppose I should have written "I do not recommend this for anyone else." into every paragraph.

I wrote the piece because it is fact. Not because it is pretty. It is an example of how someone with a similar background to the woman of this thread finally found peace.

I suppose the world would prefer the ugly bits only be discussed in private messages, though.

I do wish the wife of the OP well.


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## JayDee7 (Sep 12, 2017)

Let it go man. She doesnt like it or want it, it’s something you want to do for her and she’s saying please don’t. So just don’t. Maybe try again in a year.


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## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

My wife hates Kimchi (Korean fermented spicy vegetables - often cabbage) but I LOVE it. Always have, can't get enough. Do you think she'll like it if I rub it on her face? Should I hide it in her food? Maybe I should blindfold her and put a forkfull into her mouth, and hold her mouth shut until she eats it. Hmmm... maybe I should get a Korean psychologist to figure out what's wrong with her.

Or maybe,... Just maybe....

I can just accept that she doesn't want to eat any of my damn stinky Kimchi! Yeah, I think that's the most reasonable thing to do.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> My wife and I have been together for over ten years and have always had a fulfilling and openly communicative sex life, except in one area: me going down on her. Now I personally love eating out *and have had a lot of success with it in past relationships*.


How did it manifest itself? Did it gather you a lot of critical acclaim? :wink2:

It's tricky, after my wife gave birth she lost sensations down there for a while and it was a bit frustrating however I wasn't pushing this. It's something you may have to accept to live without. Do things that she enjoys instead.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Maxwedge 413 said:


> My wife hates Kimchi (Korean fermented spicy vegetables - often cabbage) but I LOVE it. Always have, can't get enough. Do you think she'll like it if I rub it on her face? Should I hide it in her food? Maybe I should blindfold her and put a forkfull into her mouth, and hold her mouth shut until she eats it. Hmmm... maybe I should get a Korean psychologist to figure out what's wrong with her.
> 
> Or maybe,... Just maybe....
> 
> I can just accept that she doesn't want to eat any of my damn stinky Kimchi! Yeah, I think that's the most reasonable thing to do.


I think you should rub it on her face.
There is a chance she likes to be dominated so you might be missing out :grin2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Maxwedge 413 said:


> Yes, knock it off. If she was a survivor of kidnapping and abuse, would you force her into bondage play because you wanted to "train" her to like it? Because a previous lover had liked it?
> 
> I was with you in your first paragraph - I love giving oral and used to consider myself quite good at it, as my SOs always came and it was a regular part of our lovemaking. But Mrs Wedge doesn't care for it - never has she says. Now, she doesn't hate it, doesn't try to stop me or CRY for Pete's sake (WTF man?), but I can't enjoy giving if she's just going to lie there like a dead fish. But I would never do anything that made her cry or withdraw from me.
> 
> It sounds like your wife suffered some sort of abuse specific to receiving oral. Why would you force her to relive that? And while Mr and Mrs WilliamM have worked out their kinky, damaged, twisted relationship - don't use them as a role model. Stop abusing your wife in the name of love.


You are @She'sStillGotIt twin brother and I claim my £5 >


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## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I think you should rub it on her face.
> There is a chance she likes to be dominated so you might be missing out :grin2:


Dominated by cabbage? I can't believe I didn't see it before. Maybe a seance with a past-life regression would reveal that she was the child of Bulgarian cabbage farmers, and when she hit puberty, and took to fondling cabbages, her parents would beat her with broom sticks. This shame, punishment and sexual frustration led to her splooshing fetish. This could take years to figure out. I might start with plain sauerkraut, to ease her into it ya know. When I can cover her up with it in the bathtub, without her freaking out, then we can move to the stronger-smelling Kimchi.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Maxwedge 413 said:


> Dominated by cabbage? I can't believe I didn't see it before. Maybe a seance with a past-life regression would reveal that she was the child of Bulgarian cabbage farmers, and when she hit puberty, and took to fondling cabbages, her parents would beat her with broom sticks. This shame, punishment and sexual frustration led to her splooshing fetish. This could take years to figure out. I might start with plain sauerkraut, to ease her into it ya know. When I can cover her up with it in the bathtub, without her freaking out, then we can move to the stronger-smelling Kimchi.


Now you are getting it! Here in Seoul, kimchi is all I can smell all day long.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

Hello everyone, this is the wife being discussed in this post (my husband left me with the computer hoping that I might be able to add some clarity to the situation while he's at work). 

Thank you all for the support! It is a very difficult part of my experience as a sexual individual, and to be honest the only part of sexual expression that I've found to be unbearable. I have what's called C-PTSD (the "C" representing the term "complex") and what it means is that my body and brain physically changed due to multiple forms of trauma from various angles as I grew up. Unfortunately, or fortunately, a good portion of my earliest memories of sexual abuse have been lost to me as I was only 2 when it started. I've always been very upfront with my husband about my history, even though it took several years for him to realize the full extent of what it means to live with someone who deals with this disorder. 

I've never sought out sexual therapy for it before simply because I never thought it would impact my sex life within marriage and although every once in a while he does admit that he understands that I can't handle oral stimulation, for whatever reason he seems completely stuck in how to hold off. He has his own compulsion issues and I think a lot of how he approaches performing oral on me comes more from that urge than a conscious decision to go against my will. He says he's up for seeking counseling for us to spearhead this problem, but he's not sure how to talk about it with a therapist since he does feel ashamed that he can't drop it. 

Even though I know I have every right to be saying "no" and having it end there, it doesn't seem like that's much of an option at this point and for my own mental sake as well as our sexual relationship I want to try to meet him halfway. It's clearly important to him and I hate feeling like my desire to never be given oral is somehow unhealthy in the relationship. 

If it helps give any better understanding of my side of things, even the thought of having oral sex performed on me makes my chest feel like it's collapsing. In the moment, if he does do anything (which luckily the occurrences are rarer now than earlier in the relationship), I can feel myself immediately shut off, like a switch or something. It's like I'm there in the room, but I can't feel anything, I can't speak, and it happens if his mouth moves anywhere south of my collarbone. I know he doesn't mean it to be how it is, and that he's just working with the experiences and tools he came into the marriage with, but it is frustrating having to remind him regularly and explain to him the degree to which this sex act utterly destroys me. I don't know if it's a control issue on my part, or hidden memories, but I want to be able to dissect it and at least try to face it since running away from it has never been an option.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

OP's wife
I think he may be uncertain / confused because for the majority of people receiving oral is one of the least threatening, most directly pleasurable sexual activities. 

Clearly for you this is not the case. It may just be difficult for him to internalize that. (or maybe he is just insensitive, or unwilling to listen or something). 

Is this the only common sexual activity that causes you this sort of issue?

Its easy for people to get trapped in the idea that they *really* want some sex act. Its irrational - the wanting of something you can't have. He may be experiencing that. 


In general though you of course should not do something that bothers you that badly. If you want to try to address it you could try therapy, but that is your choice.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Thank you for honoring us by sharing your inner truth so openly. We will try to live up to the trust you have shown.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

Yes, oral sex is the only sexual act that ever affects me like this. 

When I was an adolescent I actively sought out sexual acceptance, somehow attributing sexuality as both a form of self-harm and escape from everything that had happened to me. Honestly looking back on it my teenhood was shocking but understandable given my diagnosis, and I did have regular dissociation issues with past partners. I think a part of me at the time was combining attempts to finally feel something, while also taking control by choosing who I wanted to be with. I ended up with my husband around the time I was 16 (I had had three partners/one serious relationship prior to him) and had never climaxed with another person before. After a few years with my husband I started to realize that it was because I shut myself off from the physical experience of sex with another person that it wasn't stimulating in that way. I was only looking for the emotional and mental validation, not the physical release. It was when I figured that out that he finally was able to bring me to orgasm (something I never thought anyone would ever be able to do besides myself). All these years later and our sex life is beyond what I ever thought could be possible with a partner who I trust. I think that's another reason why this oral problem is hitting us so hard. We've overcome a lot of other hurdles but this is the one thing that I can't seem to be able to break away from and he can't stop pushing or flat-out forcing. 

You do bring up a good point, though, about it possibly being a thing where he may be feeling like it's a challenge that he has to crush. I just wonder how it is that, challenge or not, the attempt is worth the horrible payout on my end of things. He even says that he'll forget every once in a while that it's such a huge problem, or he'll somehow convince himself that it isn't as bad as it seems. Then he tries again and sees the affect it has on me and feels stupid for having tried again. This is another reason why I feel obligated to figure myself out, I don't want him feeling so helpless and out of control.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> Yes, oral sex is the only sexual act that ever affects me like this.
> 
> When I was an adolescent I actively sought out sexual acceptance, somehow attributing sexuality as both a form of self-harm and escape from everything that had happened to me. Honestly looking back on it my teenhood was shocking but understandable given my diagnosis, and I did have regular dissociation issues with past partners. I think a part of me at the time was combining attempts to finally feel something, while also taking control by choosing who I wanted to be with. I ended up with my husband around the time I was 16 (I had had three partners/one serious relationship prior to him) and had never climaxed with another person before. After a few years with my husband I started to realize that it was because I shut myself off from the physical experience of sex with another person that it wasn't stimulating in that way. I was only looking for the emotional and mental validation, not the physical release. It was when I figured that out that he finally was able to bring me to orgasm (something I never thought anyone would ever be able to do besides myself). All these years later and our sex life is beyond what I ever thought could be possible with a partner who I trust. I think that's another reason why this oral problem is hitting us so hard. We've overcome a lot of other hurdles but this is the one thing that I can't seem to be able to break away from and he can't stop pushing or flat-out forcing.
> 
> You do bring up a good point, though, about it possibly being a thing where he may be feeling like it's a challenge that he has to crush. I just wonder how it is that, challenge or not, the attempt is worth the horrible payout on my end of things. He even says that he'll forget every once in a while that it's such a huge problem, or he'll somehow convince himself that it isn't as bad as it seems. Then he tries again and sees the affect it has on me and feels stupid for having tried again. This is another reason why I feel obligated to figure myself out, I don't want him feeling so helpless and out of control.


well, i could suggest some things, but people here would probably rip me a new A-hole. 

it would involve getting you all triggered up though. which, if what you say is true, is going to keep happening anyway...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> well, i could suggest some things, but people here would probably rip me a new A-hole.
> 
> 
> 
> it would involve getting you all triggered up though. which, if what you say is true, is going to keep happening anyway...




Ignore them. Suggestions never harm. She can choose to ignore them. You helped your wife get over her trauma, might as well offer some insight.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buttwearestrange's wife:

As far as I know, no one here is a certified professional therapist trained in treating CSA victims. The best you'll get here is anecdotal evidence by people who may have shared your experiences. In my humble opinion, what you are suffering through is best left to the professionals. Seek help with a board certified psychologist trained in treating CSA victims. 

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I have no idea why its compulsory for everyone to like the same things in sex. Some like anal sex some don't. Some like oral sex some don't. Some like using violence, others don't. 
Why can't we just accept each other as we are and respect that? Why is ok for any man to force a women to do something that she hates or that makes her feel really uncomfortable? How is that not abuse or rape? Its really not compulsory for all men and women to like oral sex, or anything else, and to imply that something is 'wrong' with them if they don't is quite bizarre. 

Its like saying that everyone must like drinking wine or eating mushrooms. Or that we must all like running. Or reading. That we must all like wearing hats. 

I fee so sad for those women whose husbands have made them feel 'less than' or no good or damaged just because they dont like something sexually. Instead of receiving love and respect and understanding, they are being pressured or even forced to do to it any way. Honestly it makes me feel quite sick and very troubled to read some of the things some men here have said they do to their wives. Things that are actually against the law as well. Forcing your spouse to have sex, whether vaginal or oral is rape.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I have no idea why its compulsory for everyone to like the same things in sex. Some like anal sex some don't. Some like oral sex some don't. Some like using violence, others don't.
> Why can't we just accept each other as we are and respect that? Why is ok for any man to force a women to do something that she hates or that makes her feel really uncomfortable? How is that not abuse or rape? Its really not compulsory for all men and women to like oral sex, or anything else, and to imply that something is 'wrong' with them if they don't is quite bizarre.
> 
> Its like saying that everyone must like drinking wine or eating mushrooms. Or that we must all like running. Or reading. That we must all like wearing hats.
> ...


I think after his wife has posted, the argument has shifted from sexual preferences etc to trying to give advice on how to help her with her trauma. She clearly would prefer not to be traumatised by this. Obviously professional help would be best but I don't see harm in hearing from people who had experienced this. And there are many here.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

inmyprime said:


> Ignore them. Suggestions never harm. She can choose to ignore them. You helped your wife get over her trauma, might as well offer some insight.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


im not saying anything unless asked.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

OP: Why is doing oral so important to you. I mean sure its nice, but for most people doing oral is really a way of providing a gift / service, rather than something that they personally enjoy so much. I like doing oral on my wife - but it is because of her positive reaction. Without that, it really wouldn't be that interesting.

Maybe if you could explain what it is you do (or want to) get out of it, it might be easier to understand. Is it a desire to please her? Some sort of misplaced submissiveness? Just something you want to try?

OPs wife: sorry if this is too personal a question but do you only have problems with oral done to you, or do you also have issues with doing it to someone?


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> He says he's up for seeking counseling for us to spearhead this problem, but he's not sure how to talk about it with a therapist since *he does feel ashamed that he can't drop it*.
> 
> *Even though I know I have every right to be saying "no" and having it end there, it doesn't seem like that's much of an option at this point* and for my own mental sake as well as our sexual relationship I want to try to meet him halfway. It's clearly important to him and I hate feeling like my desire to never be given oral is somehow unhealthy in the relationship.
> 
> *If it helps give any better understanding of my side of things, even the thought of having oral sex performed on me makes my chest feel like it's collapsing.* In the moment, if he does do anything (which luckily the occurrences are rarer now than earlier in the relationship), I can feel myself immediately shut off, like a switch or something. It's like I'm there in the room, but I can't feel anything, I can't speak, and it happens if his mouth moves anywhere south of my collarbone. I know he doesn't mean it to be how it is, and that he's just working with the experiences and tools he came into the marriage with, but it is frustrating having to remind him regularly and explain to him *the degree to which this sex act utterly destroys me*. I don't know if it's a control issue on my part, or hidden memories, but I want to be able to dissect it and at least try to face it since running away from it has never been an option.


My heart breaks for you, it truly does. 

Your husband CAN absolutely drop this issue sweetie, he CHOOSES not to. God, it's not like you refuse to have sex with him at all, it's just this one act.

If you decide to get professional help with this, do it for yourself honey, not for anyone else. And remember that your body is yours, and YOU have the absolute right to tell anyone (even your husband) NOT to touch it.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

uhtred said:


> OP: Why is doing oral so important to you. I mean sure its nice, but for most people doing oral is really a way of providing a gift / service, rather than something that they personally enjoy so much. I like doing oral on my wife - but it is because of her positive reaction. Without that, it really wouldn't be that interesting.
> 
> Maybe if you could explain what it is you do (or want to) get out of it, it might be easier to understand. Is it a desire to please her? Some sort of misplaced submissiveness? Just something you want to try?
> 
> OPs wife: sorry if this is too personal a question but do you only have problems with oral done to you, or do you also have issues with doing it to someone?



OP: It's just something I've always enjoyed doing and her pleasure means everything to me. It's always been a pleasurable experience for my partners in the past so it could even be habit. I won't be too proud to admit that she does a lot for me and I feel limited in what I can do in return and since this is something I've always had great feedback for I feel like it's something I can't fully give up hope on. She says that everything else I do is great and enough, and I know I really need to get to bottom of why oral is so important to me, but honestly I can't figure out if it comes down to social conditioning to believe that oral is the best gift a partner can give or if, like suggested earlier, because I never get to do it I feel like it's something I should be doing. 

OP's Wife: Not too personal, I appreciate the questions since they help me think about it from different perspectives! My only problem is if it's being done to me, I have no issues at all giving it. If I am personally focused on to any degree resembling oral then it's an automatic end to everything.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> OP: Why is doing oral so important to you. I mean sure its nice, but for most people doing oral is really a way of providing a gift / service, rather than something that they personally enjoy so much. I like doing oral on my wife - but it is because of her positive reaction. Without that, it really wouldn't be that interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




OP said that she likes giving oral. Just not receiving it.
I am a little surprised (but relieved) that all other aspects of sex are ok; usually, victims of sexual abuse experience difficulties when it come to any aspects of sex. I would try and focus on the parts that feel good for both.

On another note, I am not sure why some men feel such a strong need to want their wives enjoy receiving oral. Maybe it’s because it gets drilled into us that we aren’t good lovers unless we are good at oral. And a man who doesn’t go down on his wife is a selfish lover. Those truisms will be trumpeted by same individuals who will also scream to back the **** off. I can see how this can be confusing.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> On another note, I am not sure why some men feel such a strong need to want their wives enjoy receiving oral.


I believe that it stems, once again, from the widespread use of pornography.

My mom told me that, when she was growing up, oral sex (we were discussing blowjobs) was something only prostitutes did. Now a person is seen as weird or repressed if they refuse.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> OP said that she likes giving oral. Just not receiving it.
> *I am a little surprised (but relieved) that all other aspects of sex are ok; usually, victims of sexual abuse experience difficulties when it come to any aspects of sex.* I would try and focus on the parts that feel good for both.
> 
> On another note, I am not sure why some men feel such a strong need to want their wives enjoy receiving oral. Maybe it’s because it gets drilled into us that we aren’t good lovers unless we are good at oral. And a man who doesn’t go down on his wife is a selfish lover. Those truisms will be trumpeted by same individuals who will also scream to back the **** off. I can see how this can be confusing.
> ...


OP's Wife: That is true that it seems to be the norm for abuse survivors. I've been working on my own sexual experience for a good near 20 years (10 of which have been with my husband), so it wasn't always easy or enjoyable. This is just the last and apparently most difficult hurdle I have left in facing how trauma and abuse altered my ability to enjoy sexual interactions.

What you said about men getting it drilled into their heads about the oral being a sign of a good lover resonates a lot with the few things my husband has said about where he's coming from with his desire to do it. It's a shame that men are not always raised to just simply understand/accept that every woman is different and that there is no one-size fits all policy. But I am extremely grateful to have a partner who is at least willing to discuss these issues. Not all people, let alone abuse survivors, find someone like that. I just want to find a balance somewhere in all of this.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> OP said that she likes giving oral.
> On another note, I am not sure why some men feel such a strong need to want their wives enjoy receiving oral. Maybe it’s because it gets drilled into us that we aren’t good lovers unless we are good at oral. And a man who doesn’t go down on his wife is a selfish lover. Those truisms will be trumpeted by same individuals who will also scream to back the **** off. I can see how this can be confusing.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Also, we're told (most) women can't orgasm through penetration alone. Some sort of more effective clitoral stimulation is required. And what form of clitoral stimulation could be more intimate than oral? Seems like the obvious path in a lot of cases. 

1. If your partner's getting fulfilled through PIV and has no desire for oral, that's great and its on us to get it through our head that not only is this okay, and normal in our case, and maybe even we should consider ourselves lucky our partner is so responsive.

2. If our partner is not able to O through PIV and still doesn't want oral, then that feels like a slap in the face, that our partner doesn't think its important to share O with us. However, that doesn't seem to be the case here since OP reports other aspects of sex life are good. So refer back to #1 above

3. Yes, there is also the selfish lover fear. If partner is good to give oral and man enjoys receiving, any good man will naturally want to return the favor. If partner doesn't see it as a such and wants no such reciprocation, then the relationship feels unbalanced, and a "giver" will have great difficulty. It will be difficult, if not impossible, to enjoy receiving, even though it is, for that man, an inherently pleasurable activity. That may be a dynamic at play here.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

minimalME said:


> I believe that it stems, once again, from the widespread use of pornography.
> 
> 
> 
> My mom told me that, when she was growing up, oral sex (we were discussing blowjobs) was something only prostitutes did. Now a person is seen as weird or repressed if they refuse.



Wow, I’m glad I’m not the only one who has a weird relationship with mother...

I’m not sure; I don’t see a lot of men going down on women in porn (not that I watch much porn). Giving oral to a woman is supposed to be a ‘selfless’ act. Whereas for a lady to give BJs used to be...unladylike (in the past).

In any case, I agree that with somebody who has been sexually abused, then completely different rules apply. Maybe it’s the OP who has a harder time coping with the fact that his wife was abused? He should be glad that she’s interested in any sex at all...I think it’s commendable that both are willing to work out the issue.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> If it helps give any better understanding of my side of things, even the thought of having oral sex performed on me makes my chest feel like it's collapsing.


This is more-or-less my wife's reaction as well. She is not an abuse survivor. She and you are allowed to not want this done to you, for whatever reason. 

I don't think that you have anything to fix here.


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## introvert (May 30, 2016)

Wow. Just wow.

OP, your wife does not enjoy this particular act, and she most likely never will. It's traumatizing for her. No matter how many women you've pleasured this way in the past, it's not going to happen for your wife. It's a no-go zone, and you absolutely have to respect that! You knew from the start that this particular act was traumatic for her. 

OP's wife, I'm really sorry. :crying:


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## introvert (May 30, 2016)

My gf has one act she will absolutely not do. This is an act that I enjoy, and have enjoyed with others in the past. She will give it, but not receive. I am perfectly okay with that, because there is NO WAY I want or need to do something to her that she will hate. She made this information clear to me at the start of our relationship, so there was no deception whatsoever. There are so many other hot things we do, it's simply not an issue.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> OP's Wife: That is true that it seems to be the norm for abuse survivors. I've been working on my own sexual experience for a good near 20 years (10 of which have been with my husband), so it wasn't always easy or enjoyable. This is just the last and apparently most difficult hurdle I have left in facing how trauma and abuse altered my ability to enjoy sexual interactions.
> 
> 
> 
> What you said about men getting it drilled into their heads about the oral being a sign of a good lover resonates a lot with the few things my husband has said about where he's coming from with his desire to do it. It's a shame that men are not always raised to just simply understand/accept that every woman is different and that there is no one-size fits all policy. But I am extremely grateful to have a partner who is at least willing to discuss these issues. Not all people, let alone abuse survivors, find someone like that. I just want to find a balance somewhere in all of this.



You sound very balanced to me. I picked up on your husband repeatedly saying that ‘he has always received good feedback for his oral abilities’...I think it’s important he understand it’s not about that. 
It’s about the fact that something triggers in you in relation with this act and it has nothing to do with the fact that he’s good or bad at it.
And him being ‘good’ in this context means being respectful of what is pleasurable for you.
I’m sure there are techniques to perhaps lessen the anxiety or help the situation somehow but I don’t really know any...
I know that some women are uncomfortable when the focus shifts solely on them and they feel ‘in the spotlight’ of having to enjoy it, so I always tried to avoid that in the past when my wife wasn’t that comfortable...She’s now much more comfortable with her body and accepts the experiences and enjoys things more even when the focus is solely on her. 
I think if otherwise sensations are there and it gives you panic attacks/anxieties, then it’s probably a mental thing.
The good thing your husband seems to acknowledge that it might be him who has the hang up and I think if you see someone professional, he will also have a better understanding of the depth of the problem that abused victims have to go through.
Good luck.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

It seems like its not just this one act.

She said anything south of her collar bone causes her to feel traumatized.


Enjoying every nuck and cranny of your wifes body is in my opinion fantistic. To be denied that would be hard for me.

Lots of people saying why can't he just get over it already .

Just like anything ....why can't some people not get over their husband not doing something they desire?

Some can and some can't


Op. Good luck in your quest hope you find an acceptable solution for yourself and husband.


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## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> OP: *It's just something I've always enjoyed doing and her pleasure means everything to me.* If her pleasure means everything to you, and she's been fearing and hating the act for 10 years with you, then *Her* pleasure is not what you're chasing.
> 
> *It's always been a pleasurable experience for my partners in the past so it could even be habit. ... this is something I've always had great feedback for I feel like it's something I can't fully give up hope on.*
> So your wife was 16 when you got together, so I'm going to assume you were 16-18 at that time. Just how much experience giving cunnilingus does an 18 yo boy have? Your wife of 10 years has always hated it, so how did two or three years of occasional "giving" so deeply ingrain this "habit" in you, that your wife's crying won't make you drop it? I love going down on the ladies, and after twenty-some years of women telling me they loved it, it was hard to believe that my wife didn't enjoy it or want me to do it. She didn't shut down or feel self conscious or anything - it just didn't feel any better to her than If I was licking her knee. So she'll let me do it, but she doesn't get into it, and so I can't enjoy giving. So I adjusted and only really miss it a few times a year. After 20 years at the buffet. You're just obsessing over what you can't have.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> OP: It's just something I've always enjoyed doing and *her pleasure means everything to me*. It's always been a pleasurable experience for my partners in the past so it could even be habit. I won't be too proud to admit that she does a lot for me and I feel limited in what I can do in return and since this is something I've always had great feedback for I feel like it's something I can't fully give up hope on. She says that everything else I do is great and enough, and I know I really need to get to bottom of why oral is so important to me, but honestly I can't figure out if it comes down to social conditioning to believe that oral is the best gift a partner can give or if, like suggested earlier, because I never get to do it I feel like it's something I should be doing.
> 
> OP's Wife: Not too personal, I appreciate the questions since they help me think about it from different perspectives! My only problem is if it's being done to me, I have no issues at all giving it. If I am personally focused on to any degree resembling oral then it's an automatic end to everything.


If her pleasure "means everything" to you THEN STOP BULLYING HER INTO IT! Because that's exactly what you're doing.

Who cares if your other partners liked it? Loved it even? YOUR WIFE DOESN'T.

Stop it. Honestly, this is your issue mate, not hers.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Just a thought:

I think some people view giving oral as a sort of ultimate sexual gift. Of course it turns out not to be the case here.

OP_wife: Is there something ELSE he could do for you sexually that you would really enjoy that would make him feel he was doing something special? I think for this to work it does need to be something overtly sexual (not doing the laundry :smile2. Maybe it could substitute for him. 

Of course it is is oral itself, as opposed to doing something special to please you that appeals to him, this trick won't work.


Its an unusual situation. Its far more common for someone to be unwilling to give oral than it is to not want to receive it, and when people don't want to receive it is most often them deep down not wanting to put their partners out. This is adifferent situation.





ButWeAreStrange said:


> OP: It's just something I've always enjoyed doing and her pleasure means everything to me. It's always been a pleasurable experience for my partners in the past so it could even be habit. I won't be too proud to admit that she does a lot for me and I feel limited in what I can do in return and since this is something I've always had great feedback for I feel like it's something I can't fully give up hope on. She says that everything else I do is great and enough, and I know I really need to get to bottom of why oral is so important to me, but honestly I can't figure out if it comes down to social conditioning to believe that oral is the best gift a partner can give or if, like suggested earlier, because I never get to do it I feel like it's something I should be doing.
> 
> OP's Wife: Not too personal, I appreciate the questions since they help me think about it from different perspectives! My only problem is if it's being done to me, I have no issues at all giving it. If I am personally focused on to any degree resembling oral then it's an automatic end to everything.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> My wife and I have been together for over ten years and have always had a fulfilling and openly communicative sex life, except in one area: me going down on her. Now I personally love eating out and have had a lot of success with it in past relationships. She, on the other hand, has always hated it, with me or any other past partner. She says that she goes numb and can't feel anything, and often freezes if I try. I've tried approaching in different ways, tried different methods, pressures, directions, etc to see if I can please her the way I desperately want to. She enjoys giving oral herself, and is damn good at it, and I just want to return the favor but this issue continuously gets in our way.
> 
> There have been several times that it's actually ended our session with her crying or suddenly silent and we've had a couple of vicious fights over it simply from our inability to figure out what's going on. Now, I do know that she has PTSD from several past sexual abuses that stemmed from childhood into teenhood, and I am well aware that this is more than likely the root of the problem, but we have no idea how to approach it. It can be as bad as me feeling hopeful that I might catch her off-guard and go down on her and she panics and can't come down from her trigger until the next day. She has also explained to me that she often finds herself automatically dissociating when I try which is the absolute opposite of what I want to be causing for her. I know I should have accepted this being off the table from the beginning of our relationship, but it is a large factor of how I enjoy pleasing partners and she does vocalize the desire to learn to overcome her PTSD response to oral sex. I know that I could eventually get over giving oral if it came down to it, but I don't want to fully give up before we've explored every option.
> 
> So my question to everyone is whether any of you have any experience with this as either the receiver or giver, and if there is any advice regarding how either me or my wife can approach this. She does get regular counseling and for the most part has a good handle on her disorder, but neither of us want this to turn into a gap in our sex life that might become more damaging than it should. She has already been way too patient with me pushing for it over the last decade, but I can tell its taking a toll on her and our sex life. I love her and it kills me that not only can I not seem to share this pleasure approach with her but that in trying I'm actually hurting her.


Both my wife and I suffer trauma from past abuse. My wife enjoys sex but insists on only PIV sex (with usually me on top and sometimes her on top depending on her mood). Though I don't particularly enjoy fellatio, I'm willing to accept it if she enjoys it, but I don't think she cares much for it. As for cunnilingus, I enjoy it but my wife dislikes it so I don't do it.

Due to my own trauma, I've had to deal with submissive and masochistic ideation sometimes bordering on the macabre while my wife usually just wants Adam-and-Eve sex. Our sexual interaction also requires caution. Before I married my wife, any semblance of sexual coercion (even if only mild verbal or emotional manipulation) could cause me to suffer a panic attack. In fact, if my wife made any physical contact with me beyond taking my hand or if she conversed with me in a sexually suggestive manner, I would physically recoil. After my marriage, I was able to remove the barrier to sexual interaction with my wife by playing a mental game of sexual submission to her. This experience has made me paranoid about doing anything that my wife could construe as sexual coercion on my part and so I can never start a sexual interaction with her. Instead, when I want sex, I'll express sexual interest by cooking her a meal, offering to give her a massage, or doing something else that is not directly sexual. If she then initiates the sexual interaction, I can proceed from there; otherwise we cuddle and go to sleep. This can make our sexual interactions somewhat ritualistic; but the ritual approach contributes to a sense of safety and respect for both of our boundaries.

The one thing that sexual abuse harms the most is a person's sense of control over his personal boundaries. His partner needs, absolutely needs, to help him redevelop his sense of control over his boundaries. Another boundary some people overlook beyond the physical is the emotional. For a trauma survivor, sex with a person he loves and cares about can make him feel quite vulnerable. After all, in many cases the abuser was a person close to him, a family member, a close friend of the family, a regular babysitter, or a past intimate partner. Also, abuse does not always involve physical force or the use of a weapon but can involve begging, nagging, pouting, threatening suicide, and a wide range of other forms of verbal and emotional manipulation instead that can be just as traumatizing. In some cases, the most traumatizing part of the abuse is the resistance itself. At the moment of resistance, the abuser and the abused find themselves in conflict and this can create an emotionally tense situation for the abused. The abused may acquiesce to the abuser to escape this tension; and if the abuse continues over a period of days and weeks if not years, he may eventually learn to no longer resist coercion as the easiest way to escape the trauma of resistance to the point that the acquiescence becomes a habit any time he faces coercion which further degrades his sense of boundaries.

This combination of the vulnerability of emotional attachment and the trauma of resistance can often lead to certain forms of sex addiction. Uninhibited sex with a stranger detaches the person from his emotions and removes the trauma of resistance, though granted it also numbs his emotions and makes him then depend on the physical pleasure of sex as an analgesic to modify his mood; and the further reduced sense of control over his behaviour can lead to further depression and so dependence on sex as an analgesic along a vicious cycle of sex addiction. Another less well known form of sex addiction follows the above pattern but in reverse: in the case of compulsive sexual avoidance (CSA), a person may feel uncomfortable interacting sexually with someone he loves or cares about due to the emotional vulnerability that comes with that. I myself suffer CSA which is not to be confused with free and willing abstinence. The difference lies in the compulsiveness of the former.

To satisfy my own needs without inconveniencing my wife too much, I've engaged in chastity play using a chastity device. I first tried to get her to accept the keys as the key-holder but she felt uncomfortable with that, so I sometimes engage in chastity play with myself by locking myself and leaving the keys at home. That's how I satisfy my own sexual needs.

When my wife wants sex, she interacts with me sexually by simply telling me directly that she wants sex. She then invites me to interact with her sexually but always within her comfort zone that I'm not to cross.

In public, I will never physically display any affection towards my wife beyond taking her hand and she respects that boundary of mine too. I don't mind it in private, but I would feel uncomfortable with her doing more than taking my hand in public.

I know it's difficult, but you need to find a way to satisfy your sexual needs while respecting her and your boundaries. Of course that includes emotional, physical, sexual, relationship, and social boundaries.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

It would be very hard to make love to a woman who cringed if you went lower than her collar bone.

I think she is smart and brave trying to overcome this as best she can.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

OP's Wife: I think I need to be more specific about the "below collarbone" statement. It's only if his mouth is used. I have no issues with PIV or his hands touching me, that's completely fine. I enjoy it if he bites me around my shoulders, but if his mouth begins to descend toward my breasts or further down toward my pelvis (even the abdomen just feels wrong to me), I lose whatever sense of pleasure I had been building up and go into a numb state. I don't just lie there looking dead or anything, but from that point onward my entire interaction with him during the session becomes drowned in a dissociated state. 

He has also realized something over the last day of us discussing this that may be a factor we had never considered. He recently was diagnosed Bipolar 1 and in his manic states he seems to exist in a separate compulsive state (hence his apparent inability to listen to my "no"). I don't have any personal understanding of what that must be like, but I think it's something that I may need to bring up to a therapist if we're able to find one. 

Thank you, again, to everyone who has contributed/offered advice on this issue. I think having an open discussion about this has helped bring my husband and I to a new level of understanding each other.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Thanks for the clearification .


Good luck in your quest for a better more satisfying sex life for you and your husband!


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If he has problems with compulsiveness, then I understand this a little better. Compulsion is difficult to describe to someone who hasn't experienced it. 

I'm not saying that its OK for him to keep pressuring you, but I can see how he feels. Its as irrational a drive as is your revulsion to oral. 

It is good that you are willing to work with each other on this.



ButWeAreStrange said:


> OP's Wife: I think I need to be more specific about the "below collarbone" statement. It's only if his mouth is used. I have no issues with PIV or his hands touching me, that's completely fine. I enjoy it if he bites me around my shoulders, but if his mouth begins to descend toward my breasts or further down toward my pelvis (even the abdomen just feels wrong to me), I lose whatever sense of pleasure I had been building up and go into a numb state. I don't just lie there looking dead or anything, but from that point onward my entire interaction with him during the session becomes drowned in a dissociated state.
> 
> He has also realized something over the last day of us discussing this that may be a factor we had never considered. He recently was diagnosed Bipolar 1 and in his manic states he seems to exist in a separate compulsive state (hence his apparent inability to listen to my "no"). I don't have any personal understanding of what that must be like, but I think it's something that I may need to bring up to a therapist if we're able to find one.
> 
> Thank you, again, to everyone who has contributed/offered advice on this issue. I think having an open discussion about this has helped bring my husband and I to a new level of understanding each other.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

uhtred said:


> If he has problems with compulsiveness, then I understand this a little better. Compulsion is difficult to describe to someone who hasn't experienced it.
> 
> I'm not saying that its OK for him to keep pressuring you, but I can see how he feels. *Its as irrational a drive as is your revulsion to oral. *
> 
> It is good that you are willing to work with each other on this.


I'd think it'd be easy to understand one anothers perspective. However, pressuring someone to do something they don't want to do is the irrational thing. Saying 'no' to oral sex (regardless of the reason) is not irrational.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

minimalME said:


> I believe that it stems, once again, from the widespread use of pornography.
> 
> My mom told me that, when she was growing up, oral sex (we were discussing blowjobs) was something only prostitutes did. Now a person is seen as weird or repressed if they refuse.


She is right, it was never mentioned when I was young, and now every woman is supposed to like and want it and if they don't they must have been abused or be repressed or have something else wrong with them. 
I think its very sad and worrying that women are pressured to have to do something they hate. Its abuse.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> She is right, it was never mentioned when I was young, and now every woman is supposed to like and want it and if they don't they must have been abused or be repressed or have something else wrong with them.
> I think its very sad and worrying that women are pressured to have to do something they hate. Its abuse.


I would disagree that oral is a recent thing, or that it is related to porn. Perhaps there should be a thread started on the Song of Songs in the Bible?

"Awake, north wind, and come, south wind! Blow on my garden, that its fragrance may spread everywhere. Let my beloved come into his garden and taste its choice fruits.
"

I can tell you there is no better way to describe my wife's vajayjay then "choice fruits"


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

minimalME said:


> I'd think it'd be easy to understand one anothers perspective. However, pressuring someone to do something they don't want to do is the irrational thing. Say 'no' to oral sex (regardless of the reason) is not irrational.



I will put this slogan on my t shirt: “Say No to Oral Sex!” See how quickly I get beaten up by a feminist.


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> I will put this slogan on my t shirt: “Say No to Oral Sex!” See how quickly I get beaten up by a feminist.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's if you want a feminist to just beat you up. If you really want to provoke a feminist:

'Women abuse men, boys, and other women too.'


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## Maxwedge 413 (Apr 16, 2014)

This thread became much clearer when OP's Wife got involved. It's a shame more forum members' spouses can't/won't post their side. It's easy to form the wrong opinion of a situation when you only hear the side of the angry or heart-broken party. Especially when that party has a mental diagnosis that they don't mention.

She hates the act, but wants to be open and giving with her loving husband. He wants to please her, but his obsessiveness and manic swings make him seek this "giving" despite her disliking it. She does NOT have to submit and allow him to do it. He DOES need to understand that she doesn't want or like it.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

OP wife, not endorsing forcing anything, here is a link I gave to my wife when she asked me why I was focused on her during sex. https://forgivenwife.com/4-reasons-husband-desires-orgasm/

It gives a good view of why I want my wife to be happy. 

Maybe a different viewpoint of your husband?

There was an earlier question about why oral is so important to poster. My wife asked me the same thing a while back back.

I had to think for a while. My best description was "seeing, smelling, tasting and texture of her body are an experience like no other in the world"

To OP & his wife, you BOTH are farther along than many couples. You are able to have conversations and discuss your sex life together. Communication is so important to learning the heart of your spouse.

While there are many different viewpoints on this topic, I want to say "Thank You" to both of you to having the courage to post together here. I got a little bit more insight to what my wife has expressed in the past.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I would disagree that oral is a recent thing, or that it is related to porn. Perhaps there should be a thread started on the Song of Songs in the Bible?
> 
> "Awake, north wind, and come, south wind! Blow on my garden, that its fragrance may spread everywhere. Let my beloved come into his garden and taste its choice fruits.
> "
> ...


I can only go by the changes that have happened in my county in 50 years. It wasnt mentioned among young people back when I was in my teens and 20's. Now porn use is rife and many men seem obsessed by it and seem to think its ok to force it on their wives even if they don't want it. Its abuse pure and simple.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Maxwedge 413 said:


> This thread became much clearer when OP's Wife got involved. It's a shame more forum members' spouses can't/won't post their side. It's easy to form the wrong opinion of a situation when you only hear the side of the angry or heart-broken party. Especially when that party has a mental diagnosis that they don't mention.
> 
> She hates the act, but wants to be open and giving with her loving husband. He wants to please her, but his obsessiveness and manic swings make him seek this "giving" despite her disliking it. She does NOT have to submit and allow him to do it. He DOES need to understand that she doesn't want or like it.


Yes and he also needs to realise that not everyone likes or wants the same things. 
I thought that was very odd, that he wanted to do it 'for her' when she had made it very clear that it upset her terribly. How is that giving? Its doing something for yourself, that YOU want, while trying to make out that its for them despite their suffering and pain. Quite bizarre. :scratchhead:


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I can only go by the changes that have happened in my county in 50 years. It wasnt mentioned among young people back when I was in my teens and 20's. Now porn use is rife and many men seem obsessed by it and seem to think its ok to force it on their wives even if they don't want it. Its abuse pure and simple.


Ok, how do I ask this without someone taking offense..... maybe I'll go this direction instead.

I am mid 50's, grew up in the midwest on a farm, and I know oral was discussed way back when I was a youngin. Although some of my sex ed was kinda short, I once as a young lad asked my dad, "Why is that bull trying to mount that other bull?" His response, "Because he's queer." He then handed me the pitchfork, pointed at the manure spreader & said :"Get busy"
@Diana7, am I close to your age? NOT knocking your age or growing up experiences, just trying to figure out why/ what. where the differences are.



Did you grow up in a small town, rural area, etc?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I can only go by the changes that have happened in my county in 50 years. It wasnt mentioned among young people back when I was in my teens and 20's. Now porn use is rife and many men seem obsessed by it and seem to think its ok to force it on their wives even if they don't want it. Its abuse pure and simple.



Love is a selfish endeavour. 


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

inmyprime said:


> I will put this slogan on my t shirt: “Say No to Oral Sex!” See how quickly I get beaten up by a feminist.


I'm not a feminist. And do you really feel beaten up every time someone disagrees with you? 

I'm not advocating 'no oral sex'. But to treat someone like they have a problem cause they don't want it is a little extreme.

No hard feelings? Cheers.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

minimalME said:


> I'm not a feminist. And do you really feel beaten up every time someone disagrees with you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Haha, Not at all  And I agree with you (please don’t hit me!)

I thought it’s a little comical: somebody reading a post without proper context might be left completely gobsmacked that wanting to please a partner sexually, is hailed as a form of abuse.
That’s what I found a little extreme (that wasn’t in your post).
I think pointing out that the OP may be misunderstanding wife’s reaction is one thing, but calling him ‘abusive’ because he is trying to please his partner, is a little bit much, me thinks.

A feminist once almost hit me when I held a door open for her (zer?). She was insulted that i thought that she wasn’t strong enough to open the door herself. I thought that was odd. But i now understand that if I kept insisting on holding that door open for her, I would deserve to be smacked. 


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Haha, Not at all  And I agree with you (please don’t hit me!)
> 
> I thought it’s a little comical: somebody reading a post without proper context might be left completely gobsmacked that wanting to please a partner sexually, is hailed as a form of abuse.
> That’s what I found a little extreme (that wasn’t in your post).
> ...


I hold the door open for any person walking through behind me and I've had women hold the door open for me.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Machjo said:


> and I've had women hold the door open for me.



How dare they! 



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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> How dare they!
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Happens frequently as I'm going into the gym. If it looks like they can kick my ass, I don't complain.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> Ok, how do I ask this without someone taking offense..... maybe I'll go this direction instead.
> 
> I am mid 50's, grew up in the midwest on a farm, and I know oral was discussed way back when I was a youngin. Although some of my sex ed was kinda short, I once as a young lad asked my dad, "Why is that bull trying to mount that other bull?" His response, "Because he's queer." He then handed me the pitchfork, pointed at the manure spreader & said :"Get busy"
> 
> ...


I am 61 and am British. I grew up firstly in South London which was very busy and highly populated, then moved to a largish busy town in another county.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I am 61 and am British. I grew up firstly in South London which was very busy and highly populated, then moved to a largish busy town in another county.


OK, thanks for the reply. I have spent a fair amount of time face to face with a male vendor that is about 65 and is from England. We have had a number of conversations in bars after the days business is done, discussing the differences in culture between England, America and other countries in Europe.

As a WW 2 history buff, I have great respect for the people of England and what they endured.

Cheers!


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## In2thewoods (Jan 25, 2017)

I didn't notice too many practical suggestions outside of "Go to therapy" or autocratic ones like "He needs to let it go!" The OP has admitted his own struggle with desiring giving oral sex, and is working on demanding less. OP's lovely wife has gotten involved and stated her past abuse, her love for her DH, and her genuine desire to GIFT him with what he truly wants. Yes, he should not demand. Ever. Yes, it's totally ok to not enjoy it, and your spouse should accept it if you simply don't like it. But I have been in her shoes, and I know what its like to want to be able to do more than you currently do.

I was abused as a child. Oral sex on me has long been a trigger, along with some kinds of touching in that region. I've been married almost 20 years and he still doesn't know parts of my history, though he knows the generalities. 

*Slightly graphic* Early in our marriage he said "let's just try something". We'd make out for a few minutes and then he would just lay his head on my tummy for 30 seconds and say, "you're so beautiful", "I'm so glad you're my wife", "your skin smells so good to me"... And similar things. He would hold my ribs and just breathe. Then we would resume sex, and he didn't try to push oral on me. Over months he inched his way downward. Eventually he could just lay his cheek on my lady parts, just resting, his hands rubbing my hips, calmly for a minute or 2. He accepted that that was as close as he was going to get to oral sex at that time, and we considered it a victory, though it was often frustrating for him. He tried hard not to whine at me about it. I was fine sexually in most other ways. He kept at it, and now we have success in that area the vast majority of the time. He also knows what to do if I start to feel *not alright*. He just holds me and rests til the 'panicky' goes away. I understand that what he did-- work gradually, not cop a sneaky feel, rest when he felt horniest-- was very hard. But I don't know how else we could have gotten over this. 

As much as therapy can be helpful, what good is conquering the mental battle if you literally freeze when a certain body part is touched? I needed to be "triggered" a tiny bit, safely, and with the power to control my circumstances and say no at any time. I guess he just gently took back the body parts that I thought my abusers had stolen.

OP and wife, very good luck to you. Keep fighting for awesome, not just ok.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

In2thewoods said:


> I didn't notice too many practical suggestions outside of "Go to therapy" or autocratic ones like "He needs to let it go!" The OP has admitted his own struggle with desiring giving oral sex, and is working on demanding less. OP's lovely wife has gotten involved and stated her past abuse, her love for her DH, and her genuine desire to GIFT him with what he truly wants. Yes, he should not demand. Ever. Yes, it's totally ok to not enjoy it, and your spouse should accept it if you simply don't like it. But I have been in her shoes, and I know what its like to want to be able to do more than you currently do.
> 
> I was abused as a child. Oral sex on me has long been a trigger, along with some kinds of touching in that region. I've been married almost 20 years and he still doesn't know parts of my history, though he knows the generalities.
> 
> ...


What an amazing husband!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

minimalME said:


> What an amazing husband!





In2thewoods said:


> I didn't notice too many practical suggestions outside of "Go to therapy" or autocratic ones like "He needs to let it go!" The OP has admitted his own struggle with desiring giving oral sex, and is working on demanding less. OP's lovely wife has gotten involved and stated her past abuse, her love for her DH, and her genuine desire to GIFT him with what he truly wants. Yes, he should not demand. Ever. Yes, it's totally ok to not enjoy it, and your spouse should accept it if you simply don't like it. But I have been in her shoes, and I know what its like to want to be able to do more than you currently do.
> 
> I was abused as a child. Oral sex on me has long been a trigger, along with some kinds of touching in that region. I've been married almost 20 years and he still doesn't know parts of my history, though he knows the generalities.
> 
> ...





minimalME said:


> What an amazing husband!


And wife! Congrats. :smthumbup::iagree::toast::smnotworthy::woohoo:


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## In2thewoods (Jan 25, 2017)

My DH is a really good guy, particularly in this area. We have some really ugly ongoing struggles too. I think it's really good to state your SO's "wins" whenever you can. That's why I want to encourage a couple like the OP and wife, who obviously have struggles, but still want to make their relationship better, closer.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> I can only go by the changes that have happened in my county in 50 years. It wasnt mentioned among young people back when I was in my teens and 20's. Now porn use is rife and many men seem obsessed by it and seem to think its ok to force it on their wives even if they don't want it. Its abuse pure and simple.


Definitely not the porn. As someone else pointed out, oral has been a thing since ancient times. 

When I was in my late teens, oral was serious business, a big deal, very intimate and personal. However, I was born on the cusp of two different generations, and the folks a couple years younger than me considered oral less intimate than PiV, as casual as a handjob, and something to freely do with anyone as the mood struck. I highly suspect the shift to casual oral over casual sex at the time had a lot to do with unintended pregnancy and STD rates. Back then, not many sex ed classes included information about the spread of STD through oral, so an awful lot of young folks thought oral was perfectly safe and it became the dating around sex act of choice for a minute there.

It didn't hurt that the President at the time made oral sex front page news every day for months on end. Other than what the newspapers printed, there was plenty of discussion around the water cooler and at the bars.

Mildly interesting fact. Pre- early 90's prostitutes in the area charged more for oral than PiV, regardless of whether they were the giver or receiver. Post mid-90's, prostitutes charged more for PiV and less for oral.


Anyway, oral is highly important to some people and it's lack can be a relationship dealbreaker or at least an area of dissatisfaction. I totally understand why OP focuses on this. From his POV, by giving his wife oral, he is meeting the requirements for a good lover, keeping her satisfied, etc. The problem, of course, is his wife is an individual, and does not want or need this act.



Machjo said:


> I hold the door open for any person walking through behind me and I've had women hold the door open for me.


It's so confusing! I'm a feminist in the old school sense. You know, women should have the same opportunities, pay, yadda yadda. And I was raised with manners. So, when I see a man coming through a door when I am near the door I will open the door for him. Now, if this man was raised to open doors for women as a show of politeness and I have prevented him from doing as he was taught, does that make me rude? :scratchhead:


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## Machjo (Feb 2, 2018)

MJJEAN said:


> Definitely not the porn. As someone else pointed out, oral has been a thing since ancient times.
> 
> When I was in my late teens, oral was serious business, a big deal, very intimate and personal. However, I was born on the cusp of two different generations, and the folks a couple years younger than me considered oral less intimate than PiV, as casual as a handjob, and something to freely do with anyone as the mood struck. I highly suspect the shift to casual oral over casual sex at the time had a lot to do with unintended pregnancy and STD rates. Back then, not many sex ed classes included information about the spread of STD through oral, so an awful lot of young folks thought oral was perfectly safe and it became the dating around sex act of choice for a minute there.
> 
> ...


I was raised to hold the door open not for women but for anyone walking through the door behind me. It has nothing to do with sex.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I suspect people don't like my input. But I do think my wife's experiences with therapy may be pertinent.

Therapy can take a long time. It can help.

My wife was absolutely against it. I had to coerce her to go. I should have done it when she had an affair, but I didn't believe in therapy in those days. It wasn't until after I realized how much I needed to change that I started seeing the value of psychologists. By then I had no leverage to use against my wife. She knew I would never leave her. So it wasn't until 6 years after she had her affair I finally got her to see a psychiatrist.

It wasn't until after she started therapy that I learned she had been abused, 11 years after we were married. That was years after we had settled all our own problems. Mary kept many secrets.

My wife was in therapy with psychiatrists for 8 years. Mainly with a psychiatrist who hypnotized her because she can't tell the truth. She was diagnosed as a pathological liar. They were trying to find the trauma that caused that. She was sexually assaulted as a child, and they had expected it to be CSA related. Her psychiatrists were specialized in dealing with that. She had 4 different psychiatrists over the 8 years, but the one she liked, and the only one who could get anywhere, was the one who hypnotized her. 

In the end the trauma that was uncovered was different, but what I find important is how radically my wife's life changed the day she recovered those repressed memories. 

She used to suffer horribly from panic attacks, nearly every day. She used to be fairly repressed sexually. 

The day she recovered the repressed memories about the torture she had endured as a child the panic attacks stopped and her libido went through the roof. She was totally different afterwards. Yes, she cried a lot for a while, but she felt freed.

In her case the torture when she was 11 had shattered her memory, her mind. That was the goal of the torture, and she actually managed to use that fact to repress the memories again fairly quickly after recovering the memories. But she kept what she wanted, healed a little, and threw out what hurt too much. She went over it with her psychiatrist while she remembered, and she is much better. Perhaps the fact she could discuss it with her analyst is what helped her. I have no idea why recovering those memories, although only temporarily, made her feel free of the fear that had constantly gripped her. 

Her psychiatrist says whatever works is good.

I know the idea of remembering is horrible. I wouldn't want to do it, myself.

But it worked for Mary. I am thankful she was able to throw away what hurt too much. She cannot remember any of it now.

Yes, she is still a pathological liar. That cannot be repaired. But she is much better. She is very happy she went through with the therapy. All eight years of it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> OK, thanks for the reply. I have spent a fair amount of time face to face with a male vendor that is about 65 and is from England. We have had a number of conversations in bars after the days business is done, discussing the differences in culture between England, America and other countries in Europe.
> 
> As a WW 2 history buff, I have great respect for the people of England and what they endured.
> 
> Cheers!


Yes Churchill is one of my heroes. :smile2:
My Grandfather died young due to the mustard gas used in WWI. He was a motorcycle dispatch rider along the front and died leaving 5 little girls. SO sad. :frown2:


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