# Does anybody else feel Adultery and Withholding Sex are equally as wrong?



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

If the vow is to forsake all others, the inverse is "for the sake of one". This is a sexual/emotional vow. The two parties have made vows to:

A. Not sleep with, or romantically entangle with, other parties.

B. Provide sexual and romantic/emotional gratification solely to one another.

Assuming that the denied spouse is upholding the tenants of matrimony, and the withholding spouse is chronically denying them adequate sexual gratification regardless, is not the withholding spouse breaking their marriage vows, and in essence shattering the marriage?

And if then the denied spouse turns to adultery for an outlet, is not the marriage already broken due to the actions of the withholding spouse?

Obviously one should divorce before lying with others. But under this circumstance who do you believe broke the vows first: the withholder or the adulterer?


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

withholding sex is breaking your marriage vows. 
But adultery is grounds for divorce (least biblically).

Most smart people i would assume wouldn't withhold sex because it increases the risk of the latter. Kind of a stupid thing to do withholding sex, and still hoping your partner stays faithful?

unless of course you want your spouse to cheat on you then i suppose withholding sex would be a way to make that happen.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I guess this all depends upon ones beliefs since vows tend to differ in this area. I can honestly say that I wouldn't consider withholding sex as breaking anything in the marriage but that is because of my beliefs. Clearly they differ from other peoples.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

Two different things, each destructive in their own way, but personally, adultery is much much more wrong, from basically any approach I look at it.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Gaia said:


> I guess this all depends upon ones beliefs since vows tend to differ in this area. I can honestly say that I wouldn't consider withholding sex as breaking anything in the marriage but that is because of my beliefs. Clearly they differ from other peoples.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Would these be religious beliefs? The concept of concomitant obligation is taught pretty early on in an ethics course and those tend to be pretty secular.


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## Good Dog (Mar 28, 2012)

At least when sex is withheld, you're aware of the issue and can work to deal with it one way or the other. Adultery prevents that from happening and so is more destructive.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Good Dog said:


> At least when sex is withheld, you're aware of the issue and can work to deal with it one way or the other. Adultery prevents that from happening and so is more destructive.


I do not thing that the OP is talking about occassionly not wanting or withholding sex. Instease I think that OP means a long term issue.

I also believe that the OP is not talking about a person how has a sexual function issue here.

Withholding of sex is not usually the issue when it's withheld. The issue is usually very well hidden and guarded by the person doing the withholding. It's usually hard to solve a problem of withholding sex because once it gets to that point it's more about anger, resentment and power withing in the marriage.

Withholding sex as a long term pattern is extremely hurtful and abusive.

I'm not sure if it's on the same level as adultry. But it is a type of betrayal and can be as distructive to a marriage as infidelity can.


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

1 Corinthians 7: 3-5 

It can lead to temptation for sure....I would say seek help before you jump to any conclusions.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

somethingelse said:


> 1 Corinthians 7: 3-5
> 
> It can lead to temptation for sure....I would say seek help before you jump to any conclusions.


?? What conclusions might someone jump to?


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## DDC (Jul 16, 2012)

While I believe they are both "wrong", I do not believe they are equally wrong. Adultery is worse.


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## missmolly (Jun 10, 2012)

This is discussed in the MAP chapter of Athol Kay's Book


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## Good Dog (Mar 28, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I do not thing that the OP is talking about occassionly not wanting or withholding sex. Instease I think that OP means a long term issue.
> 
> I also believe that the OP is not talking about a person how has a sexual function issue here.
> 
> ...


This makes sense, though even then you're more easily aware of the existence of _some problem_ when sex is withheld. Adultery does eventually reveal itself of course, but much damage has been done in the meantime. Withholding sex is bad, don't get me wrong. But adultery is far more insidious in my opinion.


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> ?? What conclusions might someone jump to?



to ones like...hating your partner, leaving, or the like


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

tough one.


they are very different and really not compairable.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I do not thing that the OP is talking about occassionly not wanting or withholding sex. Instease I think that OP means a long term issue.
> 
> I also believe that the OP is not talking about a person how has a sexual function issue here.
> 
> ...


i always avoided the issue even with people i dated when we started to get intimate. And made it a point with my wife from early on i had little tolerance.

Told them you dont want to put out find someone else. In fact just pack your stuff now and save the conversation. i just always refused to deal with it.
i was just hell bent i would never let a woman control me with what is between her legs. id just toss them. 

i have a friend whose wife withholds occasionally. Like she is something special. i must admit i have told him before to go screw someone else and tell her about it. she kind of deserves it.
But then i catch myself and kind of tell him not to listen to me on this. As im not really offering answers just a vindictive way of retaliation which isnt exactly right. Not very biblical either. But she really does deserve it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Good Dog said:


> This makes sense, though even then you're more easily aware of the existence of _some problem_ when sex is withheld. Adultery does eventually reveal itself of course, but much damage has been done in the meantime. Withholding sex is bad, don't get me wrong. But adultery is far more insidious in my opinion.


I agree that adultry is far more insidious.

I've had both happen to me in two marriages. My reaction to them was different in both marriages.

In the marriage with my son's father was the withholding that bothered me the most. By the time I found out about the adultry, the withholding had gone on for so long I did not really care about the adultry. It was just a foot note that helped me feel more justified in divorce. The pain from the withhold was a long term slow burn kind of pain.

In my more recent marriage the adultry happened first and it was a shock. It was devistating. This happened at about 18 months in our marriage. Then things seemed to go well for a few years but slowly he w/drew.. so again I entered the slow burn of being rejected over a long time period. I did not divorce him for the infidelity, we supposedly fixed the marriage after that. I did divorce him in a large part for the w/holding and refusal to discuss and deal with the issues.

Thus, from my experience it's not clear cut. There are a lot of factors involved.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> Would these be religious beliefs? The concept of concomitant obligation is taught pretty early on in an ethics course and those tend to be pretty secular.


They could be looked at as religious beliefs or personal. Either way like some others I consider adultery worse. If my SO were to withhold sex I would be upset yes but it wouldn't make me go out and get it elsewhere. It is his body not mine so he is not obligated to give it. I would of course try to work on the issue that caused the withholding but I would never cheat.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> i always avoided the issue even with people i dated when we started to get intimate. And made it a point with my wife from early on i had little tolerance.
> 
> Told them you dont want to put out find someone else. In fact just pack your stuff now and save the conversation. i just always refused to deal with it.
> i was just hell bent i would never let a woman control me with what is between her legs. id just toss them.
> ...


Men withhold sex as punishment as well. 

Now, all these years later I realize that once withhold becomes the norm, and the spouse will not work on improving things it's time for divorce.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gaia said:


> They could be looked at as religious beliefs or personal. Either way like some others I consider adultery worse. If my SO were to withhold sex I would be upset yes but it wouldn't make me go out and get it elsewhere. It is his body not mine so he is not obligated to give it. I would of course try to work on the issue that caused the withholding but I would never cheat.


Would you leave him if he told he he would never have sex with you again and lived up to that? How many weeks, months, years would you stay in a sexless, affectionless marriage?


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Men withhold sex as punishment as well.
> 
> Now, all these years later I realize that once withhold becomes the norm, and the spouse will not work on improving things it's time for divorce.


I agree with this! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

If he said he would never have sex with me again I would try to figure out why. If he actually meant what he said and truely never did then yes I would leave him. I would be willing to wait a few years to see if things changed and could be improved, if not then like I said I would leave. There would be no cheating on my partt that's for sure.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Men withhold sex as punishment as well.
> 
> Now, all these years later I realize that once withhold becomes the norm, and the spouse will not work on improving things it's time for divorce.


he wants out, has.
she holds the kids over his head.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

bribrius said:


> he wants out, has.
> she holds the kids over his head.


Is this your assumption of all women?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Of course if my spouse said he wanted out I would gladly agree to it being over if that were the reason why he was withholding sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Is this your assumption of all women?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


no. but his wife really does suck. i dont know how he deals with her. She is extremely petty, controlling and manipulative. And she is so dumb about it you can see right through it. It is obvious. Im surprised he can put up with her at all.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> he wants out, has.
> she holds the kids over his head.


How does he hold the kids over his head? How old are the kids?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gaia said:


> Of course if my spouse said he wanted out I would gladly agree to it being over if that were the reason why he was withholding sex.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A lot of people who withhold sex seem to not want to marriage to end. If they wanted out they could just leave. It's some kind of mental game they are playing.

I've read tha when a man does it, it's out of anger and resentment... it's a way to express that without having to say it to their spouse. It also gives them a lot of power in the relationship. After a while it gets hard for them to give up that power. 

I would think that women do it for the same reason.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> How does he hold the kids over his head? How old are the kids?


seven and eleven.

puts him on a guilt trip. threatens not to let him see them. tells him she will take him to the cleaners financially. tells the kids daddy might leave them. she is like evil.
better question is how does she NOT hold the kids over his head.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

bribrius said:


> seven and eleven.
> 
> puts him on a guilt trip. threatens not to let him see them. tells him she will take him to the cleaners financially. tells the kids daddy might leave them. she is like evil.
> better question is how does she NOT hold the kids over his head.


That's terrible!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> seven and eleven.
> 
> puts him on a guilt trip. threatens not to let him see them. tells him she will take him to the cleaners financially. tells the kids daddy might leave them. she is like evil.
> better question is how does she NOT hold the kids over his head.


Well if this is what she is doing.. he is letting her manipulate him. She cannot keep him from seeing the children. 

Take him to the cleaners? There are basic guidelines about how assets are split and any kind of support. The longer he is married to her the more likely he will have to pay her support.

As for her telling teh kids that daddy might leave them, all he has to do is to tell the kids that he is not leaving them. He is divorcing their mother. But they are still his kids and he will always love them and be there for them.

Sorry but your friend is a whimp if he believe the stupid stuff she says about this.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> A lot of people who withhold sex seem to not want to marriage to end. If they wanted out they could just leave. It's some kind of mental game they are playing.
> 
> I've read tha when a man does it, it's out of anger and resentment... it's a way to express that without having to say it to their spouse. It also gives them a lot of power in the relationship. After a while it gets hard for them to give up that power.
> 
> I would think that women do it for the same reason.


Agree... its to bad that they would rather do this then work on things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gaia said:


> Agree... its to bad that they would rather do this then work on things.


We see it all the time here on TAM with so many marital problems. Some people just do not care enough to work on themself and meet their spouses needs. And some people are so busy trying to blame their spouse that they cannot see their own contribution to problems. 

I just do not get people at all. Why do they marry if they don't want to work on the marriage?


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Well if this is what she is doing.. he is letting her manipulate him. She cannot keep him from seeing the children.
> 
> Take him to the cleaners? There are basic guidelines about how assets are split and any kind of support. The longer he is married to her the more likely he will have to pay her support.
> 
> ...


i honestly dont know. she is pretty low.
she could probably go file a false protection from abuse to get back at him. she is like that. She kept her older kid from her first husband and put him through the ringer. The older kid just finally started having a relationship with the first husband she had after realizing the amount of lies she had told him over the years. she has experience screwing over guys using the kid as a pawn.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Gaia said:


> They could be looked at as religious beliefs or personal. Either way like some others I consider adultery worse. If my SO were to withhold sex I would be upset yes but it wouldn't make me go out and get it elsewhere. It is his body not mine so he is not obligated to give it. I would of course try to work on the issue that caused the withholding but I would never cheat.


I consider adultery to be far worse, so I think we agree. Adultery, if for no other reason has the potential to wreck other relationships besides your own and hurt innocent people you've never even met. 

But what I 'heard' you say earlier was this:



Gaia said:


> I can honestly say that I wouldn't consider withholding sex as breaking anything in the marriage...


Withholding sex (And like EleGirl, I'm not talking about headaches or depression or healing from a painful episiotomy or any other legitimate reason) breaks a principle in ethics called, 'concomitant obligation.'

For example: If as a precondition of marriage, you had to agree to only ever eat food that your husband provided, then he would have a concomitant obligation to feed you and you would be in a real pickle if he refused. 

Concomitant obligations are not explicit promises. They're incurred implicitly as a direct result of commitments that are made to us. But that makes them no less real.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> I consider adultery to be far worse, so I think we agree. Adultery, if for no other reason has the potential to wreck other relationships besides your own and hurt innocent people you've never even met.
> 
> But what I 'heard' you say earlier was this:
> 
> ...


There is a lot more to the withholding of sex than some legal implications. There is the feeling of absolute rejection that the rejected spouse suffers. That pain, over the long haul is very much like the pain that is felt from adultry.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Again why I say that I would not consider it breaking anything in the marriage... or more spefically mine because that would not be something that would be required in my marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

Gaia said:


> Again why I say that I would not consider it breaking anything in the marriage... or more spefically mine because that would not be something that would be required in my marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


i thought you weren't married?


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> We see it all the time here on TAM with so many marital problems. Some people just do not care enough to work on themself and meet their spouses needs. And some people are so busy trying to blame their spouse that they cannot see their own contribution to problems.
> 
> I just do not get people at all. Why do they marry if they don't want to work on the marriage?


I wonder that too ele.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> i honestly dont know. she is pretty low.
> she could probably go file a false protection from abuse to get back at him. she is like that. She kept her older kid from her first husband and put him through the ringer. The older kid just finally started having a relationship with the first husband she had after realizing the amount of lies she had told him over the years. she has experience screwing over guys using the kid as a pawn.


I don't know how she was able to with hold a child from her ex. 

But I do know that a good attorney would prevent this from happening. And if she did withhold the children he could end up with sole custody.

On the topic of her filing a false abuse claim... well there are ways to protect oneself from that as well.

He does not leave her because he does not want to... but then he goes around bad mouthing her to the guys. Or he's not very bright.

he's seen an attorney and leave her if he wanted to.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm not bri but like I said when I do .. it would not be a requirement in my marriage. It sure as hell isn't a requirement in my relationship either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kearson (Jan 18, 2012)

Well, if your spouse isn't having sex with you, then they aren't having sex with you...they are breaking the deal.

If they are off having sex with someone else, then they are not having sex with you... they are breaking the deal.

In exchange for the promise of fidelity, you give your word to provide for your spouse so that they have no need to seek another. If you don't hold up your end, why should they hold up theirs?

STBXH would make me go months without sex knowing full well that I would do it 2-4 times a day if I could. Then he stopped kisses and hugs and any kind of intimacy, but he still fully expects me to remain faithful.

Screw that.

He broke our deal long ago by withholding and refusing to work to make things better even though I begged him and told him I couldn't live like this.

To me, and this is my personal opinion, adultery and maliciously intentional withholding are equally destructive, and both inexcusable.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gaia said:


> Again why I say that I would not consider it breaking anything in the marriage... or more spefically mine because that would not be something that would be required in my marriage.


That's interesting. The exclusive sexual rights to a woman and the rights to raise one's children have always been the core reason for marriage. In most religions if one spouse refuses sex the other can get an annulment.

Even in civil law, if the marriage is not sexually consumated within a certain amount of time an annulment can be obtained.

In our current society, it's more exclusive sexual relationship between man and wife and the right to all children born into the marriage.

Of course if a couple agrees that they do not want sex that's up to them and they do not need to tell anyone either.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

I only wish I had someone I could withhold sex from these days


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Have not read the thread itself. But ...

I think both can be reason for a divorce.

Are they the same thing? No.

Meaning that one does not mean the other is justified. So not getting your sexual needs met is not an excuse to cheat. You divorce first. 

Also I think one is an immediate dealbreaker ( adultry ) the other should be worked through first before a divorce.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I don't know how she was able to with hold a child from her ex.
> 
> But I do know that a good attorney would prevent this from happening. And if she did withhold the children he could end up with sole custody.
> 
> ...


oh, it isnt just him telling me this.
SHE has told me this about HIM and her too.
kind of "dont put any ideas in my husbands head because i'll ruin him if he tries it".
i basically tell her to go fly a kite 

i would have been long gone if i were him. But then again i wouldnt marry someone like her in the first place. I cant imagine what the hell he was even thinking. She just sucks. :rofl:

he should see a lawyer and get out from her. i totally agree.

But getting him to have the nerve to deal with her (she is going to be hell to leave it is obvious. And probably will screw him over to no end) is probably something he is having trouble coming up with.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Have not read the thread itself. But ...
> 
> I think both can be reason for a divorce.
> 
> ...


I agree with this... and ele, not saying I wouldn't want sex with my spouse because I would but as I stated it wouldn't be a requirement. Part of my belief is that one should sk before taking anything from any living being and only take if it is given willingly. This includes my spouse. Like I said he could deny me this or that, I may not be happy about it and I may vent but ultimately it is his choice as its his body and I must respect that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> oh, it isnt just him telling me this.
> SHE has told me this about HIM and her too.
> kind of "dont put any ideas in my husbands head because i'll ruin him if he tries it".
> i basically tell her to go fly a kite
> ...


I would just laugh at her.

Yes he should see an attorney. She does not have the power she thinks she has.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Lol might be a tad off topic but gate tends to tell people to go fly a kite a lot! Lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DDC (Jul 16, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Meaning that one does not mean the other is justified. So not getting your sexual needs met is not an excuse to cheat. You divorce first.


Exactly.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gaia said:


> I agree with this... and ele, not saying I wouldn't want sex with my spouse because I would but as I stated it wouldn't be a requirement. Part of my belief is that one should sk before taking anything from any living being and only take if it is given willingly. This includes my spouse. Like I said he could deny me this or that, I may not be happy about it and I may vent but ultimately it is his choice as its his body and I must respect that.


I think that with marriage the asking comes before the marriage. The couple needs to come to an agreement about their sex life.

I also agree that one should not take and in only wanting something given freely. I am in no way implying/stating that a spouse has to give submit to sex even when they do not want it.

The point I'm trying to make is that when sex has been a pressumed part of the marriage and one spouse unilaterally cuts it off with no interest at all in fixing the problems.... there's a seriuos issue.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Oh I completely agree that its a serious issue that would need to be orked on and if it can't be then I would opt for leaving the relationship entirely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Ugh worked not orked... lmao
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I would just laugh at her.
> 
> Yes he should see an attorney. She does not have the power she thinks she has.


im pretty busy for a while. But i think ill make a effort to go over there and try to talk him into going out with me for a guys night. 
We hang out from time to time and while his wife hates me with a passion she really hates the idea of him going out so deals with me over there. Just me going over there will wind up his wife, me inviting him out will be a small war from her. She doesnt like me for obvious reasons... 
And if he gets drunk and meets a woman while we are out... well i didnt do anything......


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> im pretty busy for a while. But i think ill make a effort to go over there and try to talk him into going out with me for a guys night.
> We hang out from time to time and while his wife hates me with a passion she really hates the idea of him going out so deals with me over there. Just me going over there will wind up his wife, me inviting him out will be a small war from her. She doesnt like me for obvious reasons...
> And if he gets drunk and meets a woman while we are out... well i didnt do anything......


OK...now you are a trouble maker


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## Juicer (May 2, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Obviously one should divorce before lying with others. But under this circumstance who do you believe broke the vows first: the witholder or the adulterer?


I believe it is the adulterer who broke their vows first. No matter the situation.

If your spouse won't have sex with you, you talk with them and find out what is wrong. You were given one mouth and two ears and eyes for a reason: to listen and see what your spouse is telling you. You can probably figure out what is wrong before you go out and make another wrong. 

Also, talking is pretty important. 
If you stop talking, then suddenly realize, "Whoa, where has the sex gone?" they probably go hand-in-hand. 
I always talked with my wife, craving the emotional intimacy. I know a lot of guys that don't talk with their wives, then wonder why she won't have sex. 

You should be able to talk about these things. If you can't, then you need to grow up. Marriage is between adults that can have adult conversations. 

Now, if your spouse won't open with you when you bring up the subject, and won't have sex with you, then you *divorce* them and then you can go out and have all the hot wild crazy sex you want. But not a day before. 
If you waited 4+ sexless years, what is another 30 or 60 days? You can wait.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Juicer said:


> I believe it is the adulterer who broke their vows first. No matter the situation.
> 
> If your spouse won't have sex with you, you talk with them and find out what is wrong. You were given one mouth and two ears and eyes for a reason: to listen and see what your spouse is telling you. You can probably figure out what is wrong before you go out and make another wrong.


I don’t think anyone here is talking about one justifying the other.



Juicer said:


> Also, talking is pretty important.
> If you stop talking, then suddenly realize, "Whoa, where has the sex gone?" they probably go hand-in-hand.
> I always talked with my wife, craving the emotional intimacy. I know a lot of guys that don't talk with their wives, then wonder why she won't have sex.
> 
> ...


There are a lot of spouses who will not discuss what is going on in their head and instead chose to simply withhold sex to punish the other person. We see it all the time here.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> OK...now you are a trouble maker


I try to be helpful when i can.
i'll even give her the name of this website. Then you all can deal with the aftermath. :scratchhead:
could be mildly entertaining. 

probably something like "my husband went out and got drunk and cheated on me"

but she wont tell her part of the equation of course and will paint herself in the best light possible. So she will look like a helpless victim of marital infidelity.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> There is a lot more to the withholding of sex than some legal implications. There is the feeling of absolute rejection that the rejected spouse suffers. That pain, over the long haul is very much like the pain that is felt from adultry.



As a man who went 18+ months without in an otherwise amicable relationship, I understand the pain of rejection all too well.

I've told the story several times before here, but as a young man, I fell down a ravine while hiking alone and broke an ankle. It was a week before I ate again and I was starting to hallucinate at that point. As bad as that was, it was still not as bad as being sexually cut off in a marriage for an extended period of time.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> As a man who went 18+ months without in an otherwise amicable relationship, I understand the pain of rejection all too well.
> 
> I've told the story several times before here, but as a young man, I fell down a ravine while hiking alone and broke an ankle. It was a week before I ate again and I was starting to hallucinate at that point. As bad as that was, it was still not as bad as being sexually cut off in a marriage for an extended period of time.


I remember that you posted this before. 

Being rejected like that long term hurts to the core. I realize now that I'm not over it and might never be able to get over it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

bribrius said:


> I try to be helpful when i can.
> i'll even give her the name of this website. Then you all can deal with the aftermath. :scratchhead:
> could be mildly entertaining.
> 
> ...


Ha! but you will be here so you can tell 'the rest of the story'. :smthumbup:


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

somethingelse said:


> 1 Corinthians 7: 3-5
> 
> It can lead to temptation for sure....I would say seek help before you jump to any conclusions.


Scriptures here>> 



> The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband.
> 
> In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer.
> 
> Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.


 The only problem I personally have with these scriptures is 1 thing... blaming it on SATAN... That is far too easy for me.... why is He the scapecoat here ... Nope, I BLAME it on the refusing cold rejecting callous spouse who is willfully spitting on the marraige bed, might as well be teasing you saying "ha ha ha, you can't have me". 

Even God understands THIS temptation (if one believes in scripture that is). Me & my husband feel as this, that our bodies are not our own but to lovingly yeild to each other, we see this as beautiful, the way our Creature designed the Marraige bed. If things are not right within the marraige, abuse, resentment, I can see some having a problem with this, so work on it -get back to harmony!

I see the REFUSER as planting the destructive seed and watering it's roots ...who willingly put a stake through the heart of the marraige and is standing there watching it bleed day after day after day... while their spouse grows weaker & weaker & weaker, feeling worthless, empty, broken, like a man thirsting in the desert... the sheer emotional pain the refuser emanates night after night after night .... allowing her man to go to bed with a "loaded gun" & turning a blind eye.... I feel nothing but empathy for such spouses. 

What really rattles my cage is when some call the refusers INNOCENT.....I do not see them all as innocent by any means...they are not harmless doves who stood by the marraige & watered thier own gardens. They were neglectful & mean spirited, they provoked their spouse to temptation and anger in many of these situations. Each is so different that only GOD himself could weigh in on who was hurt more so. 

The Sexually neglected spouse needs to clang some warning bells -even if they raise the roof off the house about it...

Maybe speak something like this ""Look - I love you, but LOve is NOT enough here, I didn't take vows to be celibate & treated like a roommate, so I am asking you to work with me here, agree to counseling, bloodwork to rule out where your sex drive is, meet me half way, or I will divorce you to find the intimacy I deeply crave in this life...my own happiness is important to me"....


Better to be point blank HONEST and PI$$ED than Sweet /passive and a LIAR in leading to a secret affair......and God help them if they stand to loose their kids & house over this (generally why people take the easier road)....I doubly feel for them -I would be angry as hell if I was in their shoes ....this is not fair at all... 

I find I have ALOT of sympathy for the high driving spouse IF they are the type that really has been heart shatteringly neglected....if they have tried, prayed, went out of thier way to arouse, please & care, desperately trying to save the marriage bed..holding out that HOPE.....if they have been honorable for years, faithful & true, doing their part (and yes, such spouses exist, they are on this forum, I "feel" their pain)...when they become so beaten down, reduced to "thirsting in the desert" for intimacy that has been lost, feeling it was stolen from them....

If THESE Good hearted men & women fall into something... I can sympathize to HOW it happened. Oh yes..very much. In those cases, I believe they still loved thier spouse deeply --and even should be forgiven - in some cases, it accually TAKES this to wake some spouse up from the sexless grave. 

When someone can not see their own HAND in what brings these horrendous things upon a marriage, well, It would be best to leave those types anway --leave them in the dust.


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## cloudwithleggs (Oct 13, 2011)

Kearson said:


> Well, if your spouse isn't having sex with you, then they aren't having sex with you...they are breaking the deal.
> 
> If they are off having sex with someone else, then they are not having sex with you... they are breaking the deal.
> 
> ...


I totally agree, my estranged husband did that to me, but i know now he is narcissistic and they don't really like intimacy. I think they prefer sex with themselves.

I have a HD, so i would look else where, never physically being unfaithful but mentally, it was not enough.

I won't be faithful physically any more, yet i am still married, but it never meant anything, it was more of an ownership thing for him, i am property.

I am waiting for a divorce, it may be a long wait, as one min he says he'll give me a divorce then he says he'll never divorce me and he will fight me over it.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

One is usually used to rationalize the other. Certainly.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

bribrius said:


> withholding sex is breaking your marriage vows.
> *But adultery is grounds for divorce (least biblically).*
> 
> Most smart people i would assume wouldn't withhold sex because it increases the risk of the latter. Kind of a stupid thing to do withholding sex, and still hoping your partner stays faithful?
> ...


The bible also says 'Thou shalt not steal'.... What if you are destitute, living on the street and starving so steal a loaf of bread...?


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## uhaul4mybaggage (Jul 20, 2010)

ocotillo said:


> I consider adultery to be far worse, so I think we agree. Adultery, if for no other reason has the potential to wreck other relationships besides your own and hurt innocent people you've never even met.
> 
> But what I 'heard' you say earlier was this:
> 
> ...


 I see your point. But suppose your spouse refuses you the foods you like, and only gives you what they like, which you detest? That is also a betrayal.

I entered our marriage on a steady diet of emotional and physical nurturance (I'll call it chocolate..) that helped me to feel loved and fulfilled. There was cuddling, foreplay, thoughtful gestures, notes, calls, the kind of food my soul needed. And I responded in kind with the kind of food his soul needed--lots of physical, variety, willingness to try almost anything, desire to please _even if it wasn't always my cuppa_..
I wouldn't have married anyone who i didn't feel was already giving my soul the diet it needed. That would have been dumb of me. 

But what to do, when right after the ceremony, it's suddenly bread and water? I mean, I guess you're still eating. But it was certainly a bait and switch. You feel deceived and stuck.

"It's usually hard to solve a problem of withholding sex because once it gets to that point it's more about anger, resentment and power withing in the marriage." 

I know it was for me. I would have been glad to have the sexiness we had in courtship, but the after-cuddle completely disappeared, and you're damn right resentment builds over that stuff. 

When does with holding (of either need) become an objectable offense? After two rebuffs? One? I know there are evil, frigid people who are purposefully denying their spouses physical relations, but there are also emotionally frigid people who think that just because a need for other kinds of intimacy isn't their own need, it isn't relavant and doesn't need to be met. 

Marriage is, unfortunately, a wonderful opportunity to find out exactly how selfish that completely selfless creature you married really is. And how that simple change of ingredient transforms ambrosia into something you just can't palate.


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

I believe in a 'higher being'...but I would not count myself as 'religious'.
I see the ten commandments as a set of guidelines NOT rules. See my above post.

Let me simplify....if a marrage vow was 'if your wife/husband has an itch, it is your responsibility as his/her husband/wife to scratch it for him/her'....

If you didnt or refused to scratch his/her 'itch' and he/she got it scratched elsewhere, whats the big deal? What do you expect?

Whats the difference?

When we say 'I do' we accept a 'package/contract'. I am 'agreeing' to give my wife all the 'things' that she 'needs' and she is agreeing to give me all the 'things' that I 'need'. Our 'needs' may differ, but they are nonetheless important to us and the 'package/contract'.

You fail to keep to your part on the contract, don't whinge, moan and feel sorry for yourself if your spouse seeks 'that' part of the contract elsewhere.

It really is that simple. (medical issues aside)


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Scriptures here>>
> The only problem I personally have with these scriptures is 1 thing... blaming it on SATAN... That is far too easy for me.... why is He the scapecoat here ... Nope, I BLAME it on the refusing cold rejecting callous spouse who is willfully spitting on the marraige bed, might as well be teasing you saying "ha ha ha, you can't have me".




I wasn't blaming Satan. and that person wasn't either. Sorry if I sounded like one of those people.

That scripture simply says, do not deprive each other, but come together as soon as possible, because by ignoring each others needs you let evil get a foothold. 

God does not blame Satan, but the sinner for believing him and following through with sin. On another note, God also does not hate the sinner, he just hates the sin.

This puts full responsibility on us. If we fail to do what that scripture says, then we have allowed ourselves to be overcome. It's our own fault. 

We all make mistakes. Not one person on this earth has not sinned one time or another. It's human nature to fall into these things, not that we should. But that's why God brought his Son into this world.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

If its really just an itch then why not scratch that itch yourself if your spouse won't? Really not that hard to take care of it yourself while you try and figure out why your spouse won't do it for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

somethingelse said:


> I wasn't blaming Satan. and that person wasn't either. Sorry if I sounded like one of those people.


 Accually It never dawned on me that You was blaming Satan, I have used this very scripture reference on TAM over a handful of times & I always say this same thing -I just quoted your post since you had the scripture there handy. It is just my own "twisted" thoughts.... I used to be a Christian, but I have pretty much lost my religion. My husband would say that was a blessing. I still believe in the Golden Rule ... I likely THINK like 7737. I aslo think along the lines of this, I see MERCY HERE to the situation >>


> *7737 said*: The bible also says 'Thou shalt not steal'.... What if you are destitute, living on the street and starving so steal a loaf of bread...?


No fundamentalism here, I am not devoted to a literal interpretation of Doctrine....otherwise I would have to pluck my eyes out .....I enjoy them too much!  



> *somethingelse said*: That scripture simply says, do not deprive each other, but come together as soon as possible, because by ignoring each others needs you let evil get a foothold.


 I undersand exactly what it means, I just happen to fault the sexual withholder for starting the downfall. That is just how I see it. Even when couples fight, they should still be having sex, commit to making up..

When kids get into a fight in school, we ask...who started it.. In my mind, the REFUSER is the evil one. I understand sometimes the Sex Driven driven spouse may not be meeting the others needs... my beef is when they ARE without fault.... and the other is just uncaring & are still met with endless ..."no's".... "I have a headache"... "I', just too tired"....it's predicted on their lips. and has a "its my body attitude" - I find it the height of cruelty, and yes, breaking of "spirit" of the intended marital vows. 




> *Gaia said*: If its really just an itch then why not scratch that itch yourself if your spouse won't? Really not that hard to take care of it yourself while you try and figure out why your spouse won't do it for you.


 Because we didn't get married to go it alone.. that is what being single is all about (well not in this day & age)... we are meant to come together, and be as One.. going it alone causes a mountain of resentment, why the hell marry then! 

Some can handle this resentment, I personally am baffled by that - I consider them the selfless ones to stay, halos on their heads. I'm admittably too selfish - I find masterbating Hollow and empty compared to being with my husband. And if I had to do it because he didn't desire my touch, I'd likely grow to despise him.

Not worried about this happening -by the way, just saying.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Yes I know people don't get married to go it alone but I was saying why not work on the problem or at least try to instead of getting the itch scratched elsewhere... aka cheating... (that's what it seemed 77 was hinting at) and if the problem can't be resolved then I would say its better to break it off and find a new partner.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

7737 said:


> I believe in a 'higher being'...but I would not count myself as 'religious'.
> I see the ten commandments as a set of guidelines NOT rules. See my above post.
> 
> Let me simplify....if a marrage vow was 'if your wife/husband has an itch, it is your responsibility as his/her husband/wife to scratch it for him/her'....
> ...


I see this differently.

If I was starving on the streets, instead of stealing a loaf of bread I would go to a shelter, a church, and ask for help. I would accept responsibility for my situation and work my way out of it. And believe me... not having food is a big issue for me.

The problem with viewing "meet my needs" as an ultimate goal in life is that I will never be satisfied. The grass is always greener, I will always want MORE, and feel like I have a right to have more. Just how I see it. 

I now tend to think of my life as "what am I giving" instead of what am I getting. 

Like the movie I saw once about a genie in a bottle. The man asked for "all the money in the world" and it appeared at his feet. But he found he could not give any of it away.... because then he didn't have ALL the money and it ended up back at his feet. He used his third and last wish to ask for the ability to give. He ended up exactly where he was before... same job, same wife, same kids. It was always there. He just didn't have all the money in the world to give away. He was supposed to give of himself. He didn't "specify" what he wanted to give. 

If you are constantly thinking about what you are getting or not getting, it makes sense to assume that the people in your life are also thinking the same thing about you. They are measuring you on what they are getting. So you might as well just play along and focus on what you are giving. It's much more simpler to judge yourself than another person. You know your motives. No guessing involved. Life is a breeze this way.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Awesome post deejov and I agree with it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My thoughts... Both of them are breaking of the marriage vows. Both of them are reasons for ending the marriage. But neither of them "justifies" the other. The same as cheating doesn't justify physical abuse, etc.

C


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Gaia said:


> Yes I know people don't get married to go it alone but I was saying why not work on the problem or at least try to instead of getting the itch scratched elsewhere... aka cheating... (that's what it seemed 77 was hinting at) and if the problem can't be resolved then I would say its better to break it off and find a new partner.


I think everyone has their personal line drawn in the sand to *how long *they will "put up with" VOW breaking behaviors...For some, a sexless marraige (10 or less times a year) is NOT even breaking vows....though I would disagree. 

And some of those who THOUGHT they could handle it..staying for the love of their children..... find down the road they couldn't do it......just a touch of the hand, a kind word at work, a little opening up, a little compassion, a little attraction...the spark is LIT ......hormones go into overdrive......

When one is STARVING at home (emotionally & physically- as "making love" provides both of these glorys!) .......the electricity of that can overtake someone suffering its neglect -like a whirlwind ... they might not even know what hit them...... (And no, I have not experienced this, my imagining what it might be like is enough)...people here call it.... "the Fog" . It happens! After all , we are only made of flesh, blood & tears. Too many have boasted....."No, not me, I could never cheat" ....only to eat those words oneday & hate themselves for it. 

Very very sad....shouldn't have happened at all. When a spouse neglects the others marital needs...temptation enters, some are stronger than others... The smart ones get out in time & carry their *integrity *with them... But BAD will always result, whether it be depression -leading to meds, anger, resentment walls, suffering, Divorce court and well... sometimes cheating. This is nothing new under the sun, it will forever BE. 



deejov said:


> I now tend to think of my life as "what am I giving" instead of what am I getting.


 We should all do this, true ....but living as an unconditional lover when the other is offering only "crumbs" back... Naaahhh , this wouldn't be working...

And what that man wanted- well he was clearly being unrealisticly GREEDY >>


> The man asked for "all the money in the world" and it appeared at his feet.


 Anyone who has his heights set THIS HIGH, Mr or Mrs Greedy Impersonafied ....would never be satisfied with anything....he'd be jumping every green pasture... of course he learned a lesson in that... some has never learned gratitude, nor contentment in this life...while others would kill for the life they have. 

But ultimately ....I feel ...Givers should BE with Givers.... If one is a loving generous Giving spouse (in the sexual -or any area of importance TO THEM)... they'ed be damning themselves to remain with another who couldn't care less about such things....It'd be like :BoomSmilie_anim: themselves in the heart, but missing & living with a gaping hole in their chest for the rest of their lives. Just not worth it. 

Have realistic expectations in a marraige...but don't settle for crumbs either. 



> *PBear said*: Both of them are breaking of the marriage vows. Both of them are reasons for ending the marriage. But neither of them "justifies" the other.


:iagree: No justification -this is true.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

Gaia said:


> If its really just an itch then why not scratch that itch yourself if your spouse won't? Really not that hard to take care of it yourself while you try and figure out why your spouse won't do it for you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not the same.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> Not the same.


That's true but I don't consider it the same by having someone else aside from your spouse do it either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I think cheating is worse.

Withhold sex = divorce.

Withhold sex=adultery=divorce.

Adultery brings another person into the equation - just messier.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> By the OP
> But under this circumstance who do you believe broke the vows first: the witholder or the adulterer?



*The withholder (Long term withholding) broke the vows first*

If the withholding can be addressed and improved then the marriage has a better chance to be saved and be good than if an adulterer tries to save the marriage

Adultery is worse but long term withholding is very damaging and very few recover to a high degree.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gaia said:


> If its really just an itch then why not scratch that itch yourself if your spouse won't? Really not that hard to take care of it yourself while you try and figure out why your spouse won't do it for you.


Sex with a partner/spouse is much more than an itch to have scratched. It's all about bonding and emotional intimacy. When it's withheld on a regular basis it's the same as your partner/spouse saying to you that they do not want to be emotionally close to you, have any emotional intimacy with you, they find you unattractive, etc.

It's not at all like scratching an itch.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Emerald said:


> I think cheating is worse.
> 
> Withhold sex = divorce.
> 
> ...


For some reason people here seem to assume that it's the person who is not getting the sex who will have an afair.

Very often it's the person who is withholding the sex who is also cheating.

And it's the spouse who is being refused sex who is trying to figure out what is wrong and how to fix it.

Why?

Because both withhold sex and cheating often are done by selfish people.

A person who stays in a marriage for a long time while being denied sex (affection, emotional connection, etc) is usually a very giving person who takes the marriage seriously.

Of course there are also people who are refused sex who eventually break down emotionally had have affairs.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Gaia said:


> That's true but I don't consider it the same by having someone else aside from your spouse do it either.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think that the point was that an itch does not equal having sex (emotional intimacy) witheld.


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

That's how I see it as well which is why I posted that response. Either way I feel it should be worked on and in the meantime one could try to take care of it themselves until they figure out why their partner is withholding. Cheating would just make the issue worse imo as two wrongs do not make a right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> I think that the point was that an itch does not equal having sex (emotional intimacy) witheld.


I wasn't the one who said it was just an itch. I was responding to a poster that did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I think if my W said "not to night" I would rub one out to some porn, but if she said "I slept with OM's for years" then that would kill me.

Withholding sex is atleast in your face. The deciet and lies infidelity generate are way worse.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

the guy said:


> I think if my W said "not to night" I would rub one out to some porn, but if she said "I slept with OM's for years" then that would kill me.
> 
> Withholding sex is atleast in your face. The deciet and lies infidelity generate are way worse.


Withholding sex, or not wanting it once in a while is no big deal. This thread is not about the once in a while not wanting sex.

It's the long term withhold of all or almost all that is the issue.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EleGirl said:


> For some reason people here seem to assume that it's the person who is not getting the sex who will have an afair.


Yes, I am one who tends to look at it this way... I know why I do this... because I know if I was in that situation and didn't get out, I would eventually FALL...there is no halos on my head. I would not be able to last near as long as some of these people do on this forum. They are better than I. 



> A person who stays in a marriage for a long time while being denied sex (affection, emotional connection, etc) is usually a very giving person who takes the marriage seriously.


 :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:This is how I see so many of the men here (women too)...through these eyes ...when I read their stories. 

So many staying for the children, for the benefit of the family, they can't bare or even entertain taking a wrecking ball to their lives, so they sacrifice their own happiness, their own Prime years. God Bless them.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Just as an additional note... My wife knew that sex every month to six weeks was a big issue to me, and she had for a long time. She talked about doing things to fix it on her end (as the LD spouse, she was the "gatekeeper" of our sex life). But did she ever talk to her doctor about switching BC pills? Nope. Did she ever make an attempt to lose weight so she would have a better self image? Nope, she'd rather sit down and watch TV all night, often while drinking wine and snacking. We bought a treadmill (which made a great clothes rack), she joined a gym (that she went to less frequently than we had sex)...

So no, it wasn't something that I let go quietly. It still doesn't justify my cheating; I should have left before that, which was the end result anyway.

C


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

PBear said:


> Just as an additional note... My wife knew that sex every month to six weeks was a big issue to me, and she had for a long time. She talked about doing things to fix it on her end (as the LD spouse, she was the "gatekeeper" of our sex life). But did she ever talk to her doctor about switching BC pills? Nope. Did she ever make an attempt to lose weight so she would have a better self image? Nope, she'd rather sit down and watch TV all night, often while drinking wine and snacking. We bought a treadmill (which made a great clothes rack), she joined a gym (that she went to less frequently than we had sex)...
> 
> So no, it wasn't something that I let go quietly. It still doesn't justify my cheating; I should have left before that, which was the end result anyway.
> 
> C


I think that many people do not realize how badly they are injured emotionally until they fall into an affair. It's sad but I think this is a large part of it. And it's only after this realization and the affair that they realize that they have to leave the marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes, I am one who tends to look at it this way... I know why I do this... because I know if I was in that situation and didn't get out, I would eventually FALL...there is no halos on my head. I would not be able to last near as long as some of these people do on this forum. They are better than I.
> 
> :iagree: :iagree: :iagree:This is how I see so many of the men here (women too)...through these eyes ...when I read their stories.
> 
> So many staying for the children, for the benefit of the family, they can't bare or even entertain taking a wrecking ball to their lives, so they sacrifice their own happiness, their own Prime years. God Bless them.


I was so stupid for staying in a sexless marriage for so long. Being HD it did a lot of damage to me emotionally. I'm still not sure how to fix it. Maybe rush out now that I'm divorced and have a fling. But somehow that does not seem like the right thing to do either.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

On the other hand, if wifey came to me today and announced she was banging the whole national guard unit I wouldn't really care.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> I think that many people do not realize how badly they are injured emotionally until they fall into an affair. It's sad but I think this is a large part of it. And it's only after this realization and the affair that they realize that they have to leave the marriage.


I would definitely agree with it. I've been with my GF for over a year and a half now, and I still have trouble taking compliments from her. Even now, I'll often joke them off, accusing her of drinking, or being blind, etc. Basically, disrespecting her thoughts and feelings. I have to consciously stop myself from doing that, and just say "thank you". Years of rejection are like drops of water wearing away at a rock; you don't necessarily see the damage day by day, but over the years, it's worn away.

C


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> On the other hand, if wifey came to me today and announced she was banging the whole national guard unit I wouldn't really care.


Oh Lordy... help us all.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I think I got it.

My take is if your in an unhealthy sexual marriage then its your choice in how to deal with this issue.

In perfect world, a spouse would leave the marrage with out deciet or lies and get a divorce and move on to someone more sexually combatiable.

Its way worse to go find sex somewere else and not have the balls to inform the spouse witholding the sex that you are moving on for better sex.

I'm I close?

I think its a matter of honor in how you handle the issue. Your spouse won't lay down with you then its your choice to handle it with honor and move on *informing* the spouse as such or not....lie and decieve and screw around behind there back.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

So what ever caused the deterioration of the marriage is equally wrong. Its the way we handle it.

So was there an issue that caused the lack of sex or the infidelity?

I seem to get that OP ask about having an affair due to lack of sex is OK b/c both vows were broken. I think thats nuts!


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Oh Lordy... help us all.


The point is, she hasn't touched me in 20 years. I don't care if she blow hobos behind a dumpster at this point.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> The point is, she hasn't touched me in 20 years. I don't care if she blow hobos behind a dumpster at this point.


I can understand why you feel this way. I feel the same way about my now exH.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

the guy said:


> So what ever caused the deterioration of the marriage is equally wrong. Its the why we handle it.
> 
> So was there an issue that caused the lack of sex or the infidelity?
> 
> I seem to get that OP ask about having an affair due to lack of sex is OK b/c both vows were broken. I think thats nuts!


I agree that being denied sex for an extended period of time is not an excuse to have an affair.

But I also know human nature. And many people just break down emotionally with that kind of rejection.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Ya mine did!
If I remember correctly we went a year with out sex before her 1st OM.


But like I said "in a perfect world"

You and me have been here long enough and have seen CWI grow so ya human nature is true to your point....it just sucks thats all.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

the guy said:


> Ya mine did!
> If I remember correctly we went a year with out sex before her 1st OM.
> 
> 
> ...


What sucks is that some... like you and me did not act quickly enough to end the marriage when our spouse refused to work in the real issues in our marriages. I wish I could go back and to what I now know is the right thing.... give a chance to fix the marriage. If after 3-6 months there is no progress leave.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EleGirl said:


> I was so stupid for staying in a sexless marriage for so long. Being HD it did a lot of damage to me emotionally. I'm still not sure how to fix it. Maybe rush out now that I'm divorced and have a fling. But somehow that does not seem like the right thing to do either.


You know having a fling is not the answer, that would just curb the appetite for a night anyway...it will still leave you empty without the emotional -if you are the type that wants the whole package... You're doing it right- for long term anyway. :smthumbup: 

But if you have freedom now...lining them up and weeding them out --yeah, that sounds good ! There is such a vast # of singles in today's world, like going shopping out there, even on the net ! It seems the majority of men...because they have been burned so badly, often in lack of sex... will expect sex & lots of it - for their weeding process. So many would never even entertain marrying again -due to the hurt in their previous marriages. 

Women feel the same. It can't be easy out there.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

[QUOTE*]By Elegirl*
I was so stupid for staying in a sexless marriage for so long. Being HD it did a lot of damage to me emotionally. I'm still not sure how to fix it. Maybe rush out now that I'm divorced and have a fling. But somehow that does not seem like the right thing to do either.[/QUOTE]

Eliegirl
I am sure you are right about staying too long in a sexless marriage. However, I do not fully understand why you have to still be emotionally affected. From what I have read about you it was your husband that was less than a real man that withheld sex from you. My guess is that you are a perfectly normal sexual woman and a lot of men would love to have a HD woman like you.

*In other words your husband has something wrong with him NOT YOU!* Besides I have read some of your posts and I think that you have a lot of common sense and your posts are valuable. You also write very well. Your husband was a punk!

A person that is healthy and wants to have sex with their spouse is normal and deserves to have their sexual needs met.
A person that is healthy and withholds sex from their spouse is a first class PUNK!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr Blunt said:


> > By Elegirl
> > I was so stupid for staying in a sexless marriage for so long. Being HD it did a lot of damage to me emotionally. I'm still not sure how to fix it. Maybe rush out now that I'm divorced and have a fling. But somehow that does not seem like the right thing to do either.
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for your kind words.

I have some (a lot of) timidity about going out and meeting anyone. The rejection makes a person feel very undesirable. It takes time to get over that even when I know the problem was his, not mine.


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## missymrs80 (Aug 5, 2012)

I don't think it's about who did what. I have worked with many couples trying to repair the marriage after an affair...if we focused on the affair we'd never get to what's really going on.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

CFran said:


> I don't think it's about who did what. I have worked with many couples trying to repair the marriage after an affair...if we focused on the affair we'd never get to what's really going on.


An affair is a symptom that also brings in it's own load of damage.

The same thing goes with long-term, systemic, withholding of sex.

The problem is that these symtoms alone can kill a marriage.

Better to just deal with what become the underlying issues and never get to the withholding and the affairs.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Adultary and withholding are both wrong. Withholding is the greater evil. It is possible to commit adultary without one's partner even being aware. It's not possible to withhold sex without harming one's partner. Further, in my mind, if a spouse is in a fraudulent marriage (refuses sex for months or years at a time), there is no victim should an adultary take place. One can't steal abandoned property. If one wishes to claim a sexual right to another human being, the logical inferrence is that they also accept responsibility for meeting that person's sexual needs as far as they are physically able. A deliberately withholding spouse is not a spouse at all. Whether they end up abandoned or cheated on, they would receive only that which they have earned. Don't feed your dog? You can hardly complain when it finally wanders off to feed itself.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Adultary and withholding are both wrong. Withholding is the greater evil. It is possible to commit adultary without one's partner even being aware. It's not possible to withhold sex without harming one's partner. Further, in my mind, if a spouse is in a fraudulent marriage (refuses sex for months or years at a time), there is no victim should an adultary take place. One can't steal abandoned property. If one wishes to claim a sexual right to another human being, the logical inferrence is that they also accept responsibility for meeting that person's sexual needs as far as they are physically able. A deliberately withholding spouse is not a spouse at all. Whether they end up abandoned or cheated on, they would receive only that which they have earned. Don't feed your dog? You can hardly complain when it finally wanders off to feed itself.


And interesting point of view.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

jaquen said:


> If the vow is to forsake all others, the inverse is "for he sake of one". This is a sexual/emotional vow. The two parties have made vows to:
> 
> A. Not sleep with, or romantically entangle with, other parties.
> 
> ...


I agree with your viewpoint. The standard in marriage is to provide for the sexual satifaction of your spouse and your spouse only. So, whether withholding sex or cheating, you are committing an equally serious wrong against your spouse (assuming the withholding is not due to some abuse issue).

I know Brabius is banned, but I wanted to mention that IMO he has the Scriptural angle wrong. He implies that withholding sex is wrong but adultery is a divorceable sin. My understanding (after reading up and seeing the arguments) is that Scripture allows divorce for sexual immorality. Since having sex with your spouse and your spouse only is a requirement, withholding is grounds for divorce along with adultery.

ETA: the one who withholds broke the vows first.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> Would these be religious beliefs? The concept of concomitant obligation is taught pretty early on in an ethics course and those tend to be pretty secular.


I'm not sure about other religions, but since sex is Biblically commanded, it seems that the major branches of Christianity (Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic) and Judaism require spouses to provide for each other's sexual satisfaction. Where they tend to differ is the extent and form of sex permitted (such as whether birth control is okay, which sex acts are permitted).


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Sorry but your friend is a whimp if he believe the stupid stuff she says about this.


Or his self-esteem has been obliterated by years of refusal, harping, and nagging. I've been there, and it's a deep and dark hole to climb out of.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> On the topic of her filing a false abuse claim... well there are ways to protect oneself from that as well.


Yes there are, but the practical problem is proving those allegations are false. My ex accused me of abusing our child as a way of keeping her from me - completely unfounded and child said it never happened. Spouse says child has changed story and she was acting on what child had told her at the time.

So, ultimately, I had to fight hard to get myself cleared. I did get some additional protections, but only against wrongdoing. She ultimately paid no serious price for her lies. The point is that often there is no long-lasting penalty for making those sorts of accusations.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

There is a longterm penalty for being a lying, coniving bat. While going through our divorce, my ex tried to lob that abuse grenade on me, too. It failed, of course, and she suffered no immediate consequences. However, both our kids are grown now, and neither have anything to do with her and neither do our grandkids. A lying, evil bat is a lying, evil bat and kids grow up to see lying, evil bats for who they are. The problem with kids is they have eyes, ears, and brains. You might fool the court but you won't fool them.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> There is a longterm penalty for being a lying, coniving bat. While going through our divorce, my ex tried to lob that abuse grenade on me, too. It failed, of course, and she suffered no immediate consequences. However, both our kids are grown now, and neither have anything to do with her and neither do our grandkids. A lying, evil bat is a lying, evil bat and kids grow up to see lying, evil bats for who they are. The problem with kids is they have eyes, ears, and brains. You might fool the court but you won't fool them.


Yes, of course you are correct. But that's of little comfort when you presently cannot see your kids or when you have to undo the damage caused by selfish parents willing to use their kids as a weapon.


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## Cookie99 (May 21, 2012)

jaquen said:


> If the vow is to forsake all others, the inverse is "for he sake of one". This is a sexual/emotional vow. The two parties have made vows to:
> 
> A. Not sleep with, or romantically entangle with, other parties.
> 
> ...




Again there are other items at least as bad as adultry and it is not generally viewed as reasons for divorce but yes these things brake the mariage. Of note no where in public has it been noted of any vow to have or not have sex in a marriage that I heard, just horror stories and hope and encouragement it will be fullfilling. The bible says not to deprive each other and I think something about not causing another to sin (adultry) I think. 

It seems to me that sex was designed for marriage with the vows to keep families together not have sex because you are married. So when sex is bad the marrige usually suffers and or comes apart. You think?

For me there is too much emphasis on adultry and too little on other things. Because like stated here sexless marriage like other issues in a marriage render it a meaningless yoking. However because of unique situations there is the cases where a spouse does not want or need sex. I assume this is the better or worse case where it is worse. 

The providing sex as in duty sex seems ridiculous to me as meeting the obligation of not depriving the other. That kind of sex is menaingless and not rewarding and as demening as no sex at all in my opinion. 

So it seems a sexless marriage is just that you lose and are the proud owner of the short end of the limp stick. 

The other issue is when single we are to by biblical standards be content without sex and not sin, and then with an I do turned loose with what was sin. 

Fullfillment of love sex and marriage for many of us is and has worse odds than vegas by a very long shot. For most of us marriage sex stinks and very little we can do about it or is there?

cookie


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 1 Corinthians 7:3-6


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Further, in my mind, if a spouse is in a fraudulent marriage (refuses sex for months or years at a time), there is no victim should an adultery take place. One can't steal abandoned property. If one wishes to claim a sexual right to another human being, the logical inference is that they also accept responsibility for meeting that person's sexual needs as far as they are physically able. A deliberately withholding spouse is not a spouse at all. Whether they end up abandoned or cheated on, they would receive only that which they have earned. Don't feed your dog? You can hardly complain when it finally wanders off to feed itself.


Perfectly stated.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

DTO said:


> I'm not sure about other religions, but since sex is Biblically commanded, it seems that the major branches of Christianity (Orthodox, Protestant, Catholic) and Judaism require spouses to provide for each other's sexual satisfaction. Where they tend to differ is the extent and form of sex permitted (such as whether birth control is okay, which sex acts are permitted).


Whether Commanded by a deity or whether just by common sense and logic, the position of "mate" requires mating. The male robin does not build a nest and provide worms for a female robin who won't mate with him. A car that won't run isn't transportation. An employee that doesn't work isn't an employee. A mother who won't feed her baby isn't a mother. No one keeps pruning and watering an apple tree that won't produce fruit. If you're a husband, be a husband. If you are a wife, be a wife. If you can't bring yourself to be what you say you are, have the decency to change your marital status. Then, you are free to be a sexless zombie. There is no law requiring people to be married. There is no constitutional right to a spouse's labor. Want to be alone? Release your slave of a spouse and be free. It's a free country and people are free to b e sexless zombies for all eternity. They don't have a right to drag perfectly functional sexual beings down into their sexless hell with them.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

Zombie thread which violates SIM rules.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/2459-sex-section-rules-please-read-first.html


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