# Husband moved in with OW, wants son to stay over



## kimmycat

My husband filled for divorce saying it was time to give up after 4 years (out of 10) of living as roommates. I agreed but, started to think that we should try to make it work after realizing it was my fault that we had turned into roommates. After a couple of weeks of living together and knowing he had filed, I asked if he was seeing someone else and he said yes. I couldn't believe it. Now, I knew why he had really filed. He had moved on. He said that he had been longing for a relationship for a long time and it just happened. She lived far away and that is why he had been going away for the weekends recently, about 4 weekends. He said she was going to move here and they were going to live together. Well, after 4 more weeks, he found an apartment and she made the big move, leaving her job, family and friends to move here to be with him. Now, he says that he wishes that he had not let her move here yet because maybe, he wants to come back. I think that she had been a fantasy and the reality of them living together has helped him see the light and now, he has regrets.

We still don't know what is going to happen. anyway, we have a son,8, and my H comes here to visit him. This is all very new. He only moved out 3 weeks ago. He comes to dinner at our house twice a week. He spent the night last Saturday night and spent most of the next day with us, which was Father's Day.

Yesterday, he told me that the OW has been bothering him to meet our son and spend time with him over at their place. I told him that it is better that he keep coming here if we may reconcile. I don't want our son to meet her because then, it would seem permanent that she is part of the picture. He says he is getting pressure from both of us.

I am so confused. I have been reading lots of posts and it seems like he is "cake-eating" and I am being understanding. But, should I agree to let him introduce our son to her and his situation?


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## PBear

kimmycat said:


> My husband filled for divorce saying it was time to give up after 4 years (out of 10) of living as roommates. I agreed but, started to think that we should try to make it work after realizing it was my fault that we had turned into roommates. After a couple of weeks of living together and knowing he had filed, I asked if he was seeing someone else and he said yes. I couldn't believe it. Now, I knew why he had really filed. He had moved on. He said that he had been longing for a relationship for a long time and it just happened. She lived far away and that is why he had been going away for the weekends recently, about 4 weekends. He said she was going to move here and they were going to live together. Well, after 4 more weeks, he found an apartment and she made the big move, leaving her job, family and friends to move here to be with him. Now, he says that he wishes that he had not let her move here yet because maybe, he wants to come back. I think that she had been a fantasy and the reality of them living together has helped him see the light and now, he has regrets.
> 
> We still don't know what is going to happen. anyway, we have a son,8, and my H comes here to visit him. This is all very new. He only moved out 3 weeks ago. He comes to dinner at our house twice a week. He spent the night last Saturday night and spent most of the next day with us, which was Father's Day.
> 
> Yesterday, he told me that the OW has been bothering him to meet our son and spend time with him over at their place. I told him that it is better that he keep coming here if we may reconcile. I don't want our son to meet her because then, it would seem permanent that she is part of the picture. He says he is getting pressure from both of us.
> 
> I am so confused. I have been reading lots of posts and it seems like he is "cake-eating" and I am being understanding. But, should I agree to let him introduce our son to her and his situation?


First off, I don't think your husband should be introducing his new playmate to your son. But having said that, there's probably not much that you can do in the long run to keep that from happening. But find a lawyer, and see if you can get a separation agreement written up, with a "morality clause". Without a legally binding document, there's nothing you can do. You could suggest family counseling with someone who specializes in split families, maybe... And see if they agree with your point.

C


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## thatbpguy

The son can go visit when the court grants visitation.


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## alte Dame

It's way too soon to introduce your son to the OW. This should only be done if there is an expectation of permanence with the new relationship. Please tell your husband that this isn't healthy for your son. It is confusing and disturbing, especially if she is in his life one day and gone the next. He shouldn't do it because of pressure from her. He should be thinking of his son's welfare.

Google this. You will see what virtually all of the experts think.


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## Maneo

PBear is probably right. Doesn't sound like a good idea to me either to introduce your son and the OW and it is odd your H suggests it if he is seriously wanting to explore R with you. But then that can't happen until the OW is gone. Sounds like your WH has either found himself in a mess by acting too hastily about things or he is just milking the situation as long as he can in a "cake and eat it too" scenario. 
Not enough detail in what you've shared to make that assessment. You are there on the scene and in the best position to make that judgement call. Not an easy situation. 
Consider PBear's advice. Get thee to an attorney.


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## Air Texas

thatbpguy said:


> The son can go visit when the court grants visitation.


Agree


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## Maneo

thatbpguy said:


> The son can go visit when the court grants visitation.


unfortunately as PBear points out, at this time there is no legal standing for the courts to do anything in the current situation. It is not even a legal separation at this stage.


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## kimmycat

Maneo said:


> it is odd your H suggests it if he is seriously wanting to explore R with you. But then that can't happen until the OW is gone. Sounds like your WH has either found himself in a mess by acting too hastily about things or he is just milking the situation as long as he can in a "cake and eat it too".


Thank you all for the advice. I am so down,

He has said that he wishes that he had not had this person move here so soon. Before she got here, she was just a fantasy and I think he needed to see the reality of her actually here to see that it is a mistake.

Some background, we have been roommates for 4 years, just living side by side and co-parenting in the same house. He tried to talk to me sooooo many times during the 4 years but, I was closed off because of an incident that happened 4 years ago. I wouldn't listen.

But, when he filed for divorce and we spent a very special Mother's Day weekend together, my Heart was suddenly open against and I didn't want the divorce and our sex life was suddenly back after 4 long years!

Well, then, he was closed off to me (except sexually) and then, he was saying that he didn't understand why I changed in the 11th hour. He said it was too late (I didn't know that he was referring to the OW...I think it is an exit affair.).

He has been very angry since I was so closed off for 4 years and now that he has filed and moved on, I make this big turnaround.

He is considering R now, but, he is scared that our marriage to go back to that old closed off way that it was for 4 years.

So, he is stuck between the OW that closed her business, left her friends and family and moved here to live with him (after only 4 weekends together, who does that?????). He has said that he is "in a pickle". He feels guilty that, as he says, "she didn't move mountains to be with me, she moved planets".

I don't know if I already said this but, our divorce was supposed to be final this Monday, June 24 (uncontested) but, he called his lawyer and had it postponed. It will be scheduled for sometime in August.

I just am trying to be understanding since I was the one who was closed off for 4 years and that is why I feel it is partly my fault that he started this affair.


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## jnj express

Do not let your child go anywhere near that woman----she has completely given up her life, for your H---she is a total idiot---and at this point might become very unstable, if your H, does drop her---

she is gonna be out on an island all by herself---and she is liable to "lose it"-----your kid will be seen as part of the cause of her life going down the drain---and even tho she brought it on herself---it still happened, and you have no idea how she will react---keep your kid far, far, FAR AWAY, from her.


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## kimmycat

Thank you, I am trying to do that. H has agreed to wait 2 mos. before introductions are made.


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## lenzi

I almost feel bad for the OW. She quit her job and moved away from everyone she knows, and now he's not sure if he wants to be with her but of course, that's the bite of Karma. She chose a guy who was married and still living with his wife and not currently going through a divorce- at least he wasn't when they met.

Anyone who does that deserves what they get. Rather stupid move on her part. 

As far as your choices? Don't allow him to be intimate with you while she's around and he's still with her. That IS cake-eating. You want win him back by giving him lots of sex. In fact, if you make it that easy he'll probably lose interest.

Not a good plan for your son to visit with them, it gives the wrong idea about relationships. If they stay together, say 6 months down the line would be about right. But now? Especially with him reconsidering? No way. Hope he continues to agree because there's nothing you can do to stop it. Even if you're divorcing the courts won't disallow it, unless there's some sort of threat to the health and wellbeing of your son.


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## MattMatt

This is NOT her fault. It is all down to your husband.


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## jnj express

He*l NO, your kid does NOT go near that woman, till a family court JUDGE, says he has to

That woman, was willing to hook up with your H---fully KNOWING, she was gonna force your child into a 2 home situation--------now she wants to cut in on your time, with your child----NO, NO, and NO.---If necessary get a RO---agst her, seeing the kid, till the D., is final---if there is no D---your H., is still married, and that woman has no right to see YOUR CHILD


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## kimmycat

I have tried to explain that to my H telling him I respect his views as the father but, there is no way I want her to know or spend time with our son. I have also pointed to H that she has no children so doesn't know what she is talking about.

I am so thankful that after a long, amicable and respectful talk on the phone the day after we argued about it, that he agreed that 2 mos. was ok. I just said 2 mos. cuz I was afraid that if I said 6 mos., he would shut down.

I also told him that if he is seriously considering R, it would be terrible to show our son that there is an OW. Our son does not know anything about the being an OW. I would like to keep it that way, for now.


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## CEL

Okay Kimmy I am going to address this in parts because you have a lot of things going on and I think they each need to be addressed.

The son meeting the other women.

1. I think you have a good handle on this 2 months sounds right now you don't really have the legal right to demand anything but it seems like your husband agrees with you. So good for you.

2. I agree with you that if you are to reconcile the OW need not meet the child and it would only confuse him and put your reconcile process back. It is also disrespectful to YOU.


The Affair

1. Your husband is at fault 100% for this. He had the choice to file for divorce or separation instead he chose to do the cowards thing and make sure he had a bed to land in. I know you feel you are at fault for him looking outside the marriage but in this he is completely guilty IF you do reconcile you will have to deal with the aftermath of this affair this will include major trust issues with him. If you get to that point we can talk about proper boundaries for him that will help you establish trust in him again.


The Marriage

1. The marriage you knew is dead. Sorry but his affair and the past 4 years have killed it you will NEVER go back to that again. You have to understand this on a fundamental level. His affair is going to change how you see him from now on. Your actions over the last 4 years have changed how he sees you. You now have the option of trying to get back with the new him to include the fact that you now understand that he is not only capable of cheating but has in fact cheated.

2. You say for 4 years you were roommates and that you were closed off. What does this mean? My guess is that for 4 years you denied him any form of sex "intercourse, oral, or touching". My other guess is that you either suffered a sexual assault or a miscarriage. I don't need the graphic details but depending on which it was will affect the advice I can give you.

3. How was the last 4 years for you? Did you feel loved? Did you feel cared about? Where your emotional needs met? These are important to understand where you are both coming from.


Some books to read

Surviving An Affair
His Needs Her Needs
Love Busters

I would recommend the above 3 books if you want to get past this whether you divorce or reconcile these books will help you have healthy relationships in the future. Your old relationship was anything but healthy I found these books to be eye opening and they helped me tremendously.


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## kimmycat

CEL said:


> The Affair
> 
> 1. Your husband is at fault 100% for this. He had the choice to file for divorce or separation instead he chose to do the cowards thing and make sure he had a bed to land in. I know you feel you are at fault for him looking outside the marriage but in this he is completely guilty IF you do reconcile you will have to deal with the aftermath of this affair this will include major trust issues with him. If you get to that point we can talk about proper boundaries for him that will help you establish trust in him again.
> 
> 
> The Marriage
> 
> 1. The marriage you knew is dead. Sorry but his affair and the past 4 years have killed it you will NEVER go back to that again. You have to understand this on a fundamental level. His affair is going to change how you see him from now on. Your actions over the last 4 years have changed how he sees you. You now have the option of trying to get back with the new him to include the fact that you now understand that he is not only capable of cheating but has in fact cheated.
> 
> 2. You say for 4 years you were roommates and that you were closed off. What does this mean? My guess is that for 4 years you denied him any form of sex "intercourse, oral, or touching". My other guess is that you either suffered a sexual assault or a miscarriage. I don't need the graphic details but depending on which it was will affect the advice I can give you.
> 
> 3. How was the last 4 years for you? Did you feel loved? Did you feel cared about? Where your emotional needs met? These are important to understand where you are both coming from.
> 
> 
> Some books to read
> 
> Surviving An Affair
> His Needs Her Needs
> Love Busters
> 
> I would recommend the above 3 books if you want to get past this whether you divorce or reconcile these books will help you have healthy relationships in the future. Your old relationship was anything but healthy I found these books to be eye opening and they helped me tremendously.



Thank you for your helpful reply.

As far as the reply, I need help with the following parts and want to answer your questions:

Affair

1. He does admit that it is his fault but agrees with me that the 4 years led to this, too. This affair is not over but he has said that he wishes he had told her to wait to move here. He has said many times that he is surprised by my turnaround and is very scared for us to go back to our old, shut down marriage. I want to do anything I can to R and then, work on getting past the affair and rebuild.


Marriage

1. I have been reading that the old marriage and old H are dead. I agree. He wants to reconcile but, how do I show him that the 4 years won't happen again?

2. The past 4 years, no sex and he says no relationship. One thing that happened was a miscarriage and another was he quit drinking (after being drunk and calling me when my son and I were at a nearby beach for the the weekends and calling me names and threatening me). I told him that I would come home but that if he ever got in a drunken rage when we were home, I would call the police because I need to document his behavior. He responded to that by absolutely not drinking for the past 4 years. Without alcohol, he does not have rages.

3. Over the last 4 years, I was withdrawn from him, focused on my son, my work, and friends. I truly don't know how I made it through. My husband says I was always outside on the patio watching Netflix on my iPad if I was not out with friends. He's right.

As far as books,
I just finished:
Love and Respect by Emerson Eggerich (I am not very religious, but, the respecting husband thing really resonated with me)

Reading now: Broken Open by Elizabeth Lesser

Ordered and arriving Monday:
The Divorce Remedy by Michele Weiner-Davis ( same author as Divorce Busters)


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## kimmycat

I just realized he moved out on June 7 and today is June 22, so it is actually 2 weeks, today, not 3 weeks. It's all such a painful blur.


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## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Thank you for your helpful reply.
> 
> As far as the reply, I need help with the following parts and want to answer your questions:
> 
> Affair
> 
> 1. He does admit that it is his fault but agrees with me that the 4 years led to this, too. This affair is not over but he has said that he wishes he had told her to wait to move here. He has said many times that he is surprised by my turnaround and is very scared for us to go back to our old, shut down marriage. I want to do anything I can to R and then, work on getting past the affair and rebuild.
> 
> 
> Marriage
> 
> 1. I have been reading that the old marriage and old H are dead. I agree. He wants to reconcile but, how do I show him that the 4 years won't happen again?
> 
> 2. The past 4 years, no sex and he says no relationship. One thing that happened was a miscarriage and another was he quit drinking (after being drunk and calling me when my son and I were at a nearby beach for the the weekends and calling me names and threatening me). I told him that I would come home but that if he ever got in a drunken rage when we were home, I would call the police because I need to document his behavior. He responded to that by absolutely not drinking for the past 4 years. Without alcohol, he does not have rages.
> 
> 3. Over the last 4 years, I was withdrawn from him, focused on my son, my work, and friends. I truly don't know how I made it through. My husband says I was always outside on the patio watching Netflix on my iPad if I was not out with friends. He's right.
> 
> As far as books,
> I just finished:
> Love and Respect by Emerson Eggerich (I am not very religious, but, the respecting husband thing really resonated with me)
> 
> Reading now: Broken Open by Elizabeth Lesser
> 
> Ordered and arriving Monday:
> The Divorce Remedy by Michele Weiner-Davis ( same author as Divorce Busters)




Okay this is a great start so let me make some promises to you. I will never give you advice that is against what YOU want to do. That means if you want to reconcile I will always help you with THAT. My advice will always be geared toward helping you get back with him.

The Problems with the Marriage

1. The problem is you had a break in your marriage 4 years ago you had a critical event women when they have a miscarriage it can cause a shut down of their sexuality as for women babies and sex are so intertwined in addition you will have the grieving process of losing a child. To get through this trauma you probably shut down that part of yourself because you just could not deal. What should of happened is you should of gone and gotten some individual counseling no matter what happens with you husband you will need to look into that finances be available I will touch on this in my next part on steps to take.

2. Your husband like many men derives his MAIN emotional need from sex. That means that to feel loved, cared about, appreciated and self confident he needs sex. Many men are like this you can make the analogy that if your husband did not say I love you for 4 years to you, or spend any quality time with you. So for 4 years he felt horribly rejected by you I went through this with my girl not as bad but I will tell you what I felt. Please understand I am NOT trying to hurt you I just want you to hear it so that you know what he is dealing with. When you wife denies you your main emotional need you feel utterly rejected because if the person who is supposed to love you above all others can't even provide some physical intimacy you feel worthless utterly disgusting as if NO ONE will could find you attractive or worth being with. You feel as if no one can EVER love you and that even tho you love them your love must be worthless to them as they will do nothing to help you with your pain..

3. The drunken rages seem to have been fixed but you probably still bear some resentment toward him for this. That is okay see under steps for how I would address this.


Steps to Take

1. Normally this would be the part where people say do a 180 and distant yourself from him. DO NOT DO THIS. Your last 4 years where you doing this and right now that is what he believes a relationship with you would be like. It is the reason he is divorcing you because he thinks you will NEVER make his emotional needs a priority. Read the book His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters they come with questionnaire if you can get him to do them fine but even if not the books will let you know what HE needs from YOU. In addition it will let you know what you NEED for HIM this is as important. To start a new relationship you need to know the answers to both questions. Inform him that you are reading books on how to fix your 50% of the marriage and trying to understand WHAT his needs are.

2. Schedule IC "individual counseling" if financially possible if not let us know so that we can look at other alternatives. You are doing this for a few reasons. The first is because you had a traumatic experience 4 years ago that caused you to disconnect with your husband you are looking past it now but you need to actually deal with it. In addition you will tell your husband that you are doing this and the reasons why, this will reassure him that you are working on the problem. In those years this is really what he was looking for just to see you working toward fixing this issue. This is a good concrete step.

3. Write a letter on how you feel, hand write it if possible just on how you are sorry for the past 4 years that you wish it had been different that you can understand how you hurt him. I know you have had the conversation but a letter means a lot more. Do not make excuses for his affair just address the past marriage NOTHING that you did excuses his affair but you can own up to your 50% of killing the old marriage. This will probably mean a lot to him.

4. Ask for Date Night. Weird huh? But yes this is something you can do find a babysitter and go out have dinner or movies just the two of you and try to keep it light and fun. No heavy talking or dredging up the past you are going for a good fun night to SHOW him that the future will be different than the past 4 years.

5. Ask if he is willing to go to MC "marriage counseling" this will be hard for him and he may balk at it as he is having to deal with the OW as well and his feelings for her. Understand you are not his Plan B you were always his Plan A but in those 4 years he just felt that you lost your love for him and did not care about him. He WANTS to come back you just have to show him you do care about him.

6. Be honest with him that you are willing to work with him but that any real progress will only happen when the OW is out of the picture. That you are okay with a separation and you are willing to date him for a few months to SHOW him that things WILL be different but that if you want to really have a shot at reconciliation he will eventually need to leave the OW. Don't put to much pressure on this now but do be honest that him being with her does hurt you. You can do all the above with him still seeing her and I would do so but for yourself set a time in your head that you will move on with the divorce like 3 to 6 months is what is recommended.

7. Have at LEAST one conversation with him everyday that is not about an event. This can be text or phone but something like "How are doing today?, Just watching the kids and thinking of you, Wanted to share something funny with you" these kinds of things you can also be flirty if you feel comfortable with that.

8. Expect that that your interactions are going to have sexual component to them. All the other things are going to add to his "Love Bank" but his main feeling of being loved will still come from sexual intimacy expect that anything that touches on this to pay off twice or three times as much as the other things. I do not advocate doing things you don't feel like doing I do advocate being open to the idea. If this is something you are okay with then dress sexy and make sure to look your best. Treat the times you see him as going out on a date with him just pull out the stops make him say "WoW this is a gorgeous women".

9. The idea behind all these is to meet his needs and to fill him back up with love right now he wants to believe you but the past 4 years where so painful his mind and heart are at war. His mind is telling him to run that you only hurt him while his heart is telling him to stay as he loves you and you have a life together. You just need to tip that balance.

This is a good start try to stay away from fighting if possible sometimes it will not be and you will have to fight "like with your kids" but if possible try to acknowledge his feelings even if you don't agree. Also stay calm and collected but make sure to communicate how you feel as well. I am going to send you to a great site AFFAIRCARE | …nouthetic, Christian care after an affair. they have a lot of great articles and some questionnaires as well the person who runs it is also on this site Talk About Marriage - View Profile: Affaircare I would send a PM to her and ask for her help on your thread. She is TERRIFIC. 

OH and most important keep posting. You will have ups and downs but we can get you through this.


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## kimmycat

Thank you. I will work on the letter, find a IC and follow your other advice.

Now, because you know about the no sex for 4 years, do I stop having sex with him now? He is coming over tonight and may spend the night. He did last Saturday and he woke me up at 2:00 AM for sex. I know maybe I'm not supposed to until he leaves OW but, we have been for about the past I month. He cried after the first time. He may or may not spend the night tonight. He has said that he might not spend the night so, if he doesn't, we won't cuz of lack of opportunity.


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## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Thank you. I will work on the letter, find a IC and follow your other advice.
> 
> Now, because you know about the no sex for 4 years, do I stop having sex with him now? He is coming over tonight and may spend the night. He did last Saturday and he woke me up at 2:00 AM for sex. I know maybe I'm not supposed to until he leaves OW but, we have been for about the past I month. He cried after the first time. He may or may not spend the night tonight. He has said that he might not spend the night so, if he doesn't, we won't cuz of lack of opportunity.




DO NOT STOP HAVING SEX WITH HIM. If you do he WILL divorce. The sex is how he feels loved if you stop he will feel you do not love HIM. YOU have to keep making him feel loved. Quite frankly the fact that you started having sex with him is the only reason he has not divorced YOU. When you started to have sex him it made HIM feel loved maybe for the first time in 4 years. In fact if he comes over YOU should instigate it, every time you have sex with him it is CONCRETE proof that YOU are changing. Here let me number it for you.

Sex =

1. She loves me.

2. She thinks I am worth something

3. She thinks I am attractive.

4. She thinks I am a good person.

5. She is okay being vulnerable with me.

6. I was vulnerable toward her and she did not hurt me.

7. I love her.

Every time you have a sex with him or a sexually intimate moment you are making him feel all these things. That he cried when you had sex is a HUGE clue that sex is his primary way of feeling LOVED. I asked my girl onetime if she would leave a guy for not having sex and she said No. Why? Because it is not her primary love language she likes it but she can also do without it. Now if the guy was unable to spend quality time with her she would leave. For me it is backwards to feel loved I need sex otherwise I will leave. Whatever is YOUR way to feel loved imagine him not doing that but also rejecting you for it as well.

You can also spice things up by dressing sexy and flirting with him remember him feeling desired and having sex is going to be how he knows you love him. Also be aware he is telling the OW he is not having sex with you he is keeping that to himself so YOU get to have the steamy sexy fun stuff. When you see him knock his socks off in the future you can always try lingerie and sexy underwear but ONLY if you want to. Again I don't advocate doing things you don't want to do but dressing sexy when you know you are going to have sex is HOT.

Now since he is saying he might not be able to stay this is what you do. When you see him and he gives you the peck on the lips you turn it into a passionate kiss and tell him you missed him. Flirt with him a little and make sure you look nice. If done right I bet he will stay the night. Like I said kissing and a touch here and there will fire his blood for you and HE will stay. The whole he might not be able to stay is him pulling away you just need to entice him to stay. If you need help specifically on this you can PM me.


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## kimmycat

Thank you! I'm so glad you said yes! I am gonna try to get him to stay!


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## CEL

I got faith in you in these situations the women ALWAYS has the advantage. Look good. Passionate kiss. Then when you get the chance instigate sex. Also be aware that those whose primary love language is sex after sex is a brief window of being very vulnerable when you are both done make sure to tell him you love him and feel free to say other warm and special things at this time his barriers are down and he is most receptive to those emotions. Do not say anything negative at this point as he will ALWAYS take them to heart. Good Luck


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## kimmycat

Okay, thank you


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## kimmycat

I am happy to report that we had a beautiful night and beautiful morning today! He just left a few minutes ago! He came over after cooking for the homeless all day in a very grateful and sentimental mood. Right away, he greeted me with I love you and I miss you! Then, we sat out on the patio and he was very loving, telling me I was beautiful and he loved me very much. It was a very amazing and fulfilling night! I did not have to convince him to spend the night at all! And all the lovemaking was super awesome! 

He told me that this last Tuesday night thathe had a horrible nightmare. He said that, in his dream, we were separated and he was asleep in his new bedroom. He was awakened by a thumping sound and then, couldn't go back to sleep. So, he got upto follow the sound and looked out the window and this very fit, big guy and I were I the pool making very wild love! He said he got sooooo angry and he ran out to the pool and started yelling, stop! And we're too into it to hear him. Than, he started screaming, that's my wiiiiffffe!!!! And the , started to try to separate us and woke up sweating and freaking out! 

Today, we talked more and he let me know again about his fears of coming back and about how this OW situation gives him a lot of grief because of everything she gave up for him. He says that she is a good person that is getting a sour deal. He also said that she had wanted to go back to her town this weekend and he go with her and he suggested she go alone. So, she didn't go. He said that hopefully, she will go alone next weekend and come to her own conclusion that it is not working out. He said that would be easier for him. He also said that he feels bad that she will be hurt but that he knows that she knows that she took a risk getting involved with someone who was not out of their current relationship.

He was careful not to make it sound lime he had made his decision to come home. he said we need time to find out what will happen.

I just tried agree with everything he was saying and listen. He was being very sensible but I am still so scared deep inside.

What should I do next?


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## CEL

kimmycat said:


> I am happy to report that we had a beautiful night and beautiful morning today! He just left a few minutes ago! He came over after cooking for the homeless all day in a very grateful and sentimental mood. Right away, he greeted me with I love you and I miss you! Then, we sat out on the patio and he was very loving, telling me I was beautiful and he loved me very much. It was a very amazing and fulfilling night! I did not have to convince him to spend the night at all! And all the lovemaking was super awesome!
> 
> He told me that this last Tuesday night thathe had a horrible nightmare. He said that, in his dream, we were separated and he was asleep in his new bedroom. He was awakened by a thumping sound and then, couldn't go back to sleep. So, he got upto follow the sound and looked out the window and this very fit, big guy and I were I the pool making very wild love! He said he got sooooo angry and he ran out to the pool and started yelling, stop! And we're too into it to hear him. Than, he started screaming, that's my wiiiiffffe!!!! And the , started to try to separate us and woke up sweating and freaking out!
> 
> Today, we talked more and he let me know again about his fears of coming back and about how this OW situation gives him a lot of grief because of everything she gave up for him. He says that she is a good person that is getting a sour deal. He also said that she had wanted to go back to her town this weekend and he go with her and he suggested she go alone. So, she didn't go. He said that hopefully, she will go alone next weekend and come to her own conclusion that it is not working out. He said that would be easier for him. He also said that he feels bad that she will be hurt but that he knows that she knows that she took a risk getting involved with someone who was not out of their current relationship.
> 
> He was careful not to make it sound lime he had made his decision to come home. he said we need time to find out what will happen.
> 
> I just tried agree with everything he was saying and listen. He was being very sensible but I am still so scared deep inside.
> 
> What should I do next?


That is AWESOME so lets recap a few things. You where always his Plan A she was always his Plan B. He wants to come back just needs some reassurance that it will not be like it was this GREAT in fact because really you don't want to go back to that as well so it gives you the push to do some good work on yourself and the marriage. Now lets move on to the steps let me know where you are at.

1. Have you ordered the books His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters? I know you are reading how to stop divorce books these are books on how to have a GOOD marriage. They come with a lot of new ideas and work book like stuff you can do together to make sure you are meeting each others emotional needs. I know I keep harping on them but they will give you activities to do together to strengthen you bonds. These kinds of activities are going to show him ACTIONS that you are taking to make sure the marriage is not going to fall back. And actions are what he is looking for.

2. How goes the IC scheduling? Are you going to start looking tomorrow? Once you get a concrete start date I would talk to your husband and tell him about it. Tell him that the trauma you went through 4 years ago was the catalyst for the behavior of the past 4 years and you never want to go back to that. You want to go to IC to make sure you deal with the issues so that it never happens again. This is a concrete action and these are what he is looking for to see you taking long term actions to prevent a repeat.

3. How comes the letter? Here is link to a thread on a man who is in a sexless marriage and he wants to cheat http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/67002-infidelity-ok-sexless-marriage.html I would give it a read so that you can better understand what you husband went through. Make sure to touch on a few points "him feeling rejected, his humiliation at begging for sex and being turned down, his feelings of being unloved, his hurt that you pulled away, his pain at the fact that you seemingly did not care that he was hurting from a lack of love." This is to give him a sense that you get where he is coming from a great tag onto this is if you get the IC appointment you can tell him that you are going to figure out the WHY hopefully.

4. Did you talk to him about Date Night? Or is Saturday going to be it? Remember every time you see him should be an event dress nice make sure you look your best these times are the times that you get to make deposits in his Love Bank. Make the most of them. Also never be afraid to initiate physical contact for people whose main love language is Sex the second is usually hugs, kisses, playful banter. This is how they feel needed and wanted.

5. Did you talk to him about MC "marriage counseling"? This informs him that you again are taking concrete actions to change this is vastly important to him. Tell him you would like to interview them with him to find a good match.

6. Did you have the talk informing him you are okay with dating him for now? That you understand he is a little gun shy and needs to see actions before coming back.

7. Remember at LEAST one conversation everyday that is not about an event. How are you doing? Thinking of you? Hey was watching this show and made me think of so and so? I thought this was funny? All these are connections you are forging with him if you feel comfortable being flirty then do so but above all make them genuine connections. And no heave relationship stuff. Just light and fun.

8. Have you sent a PM to Affaircare to ask her help in your thread? 

9. Next time bring up the subject of divorce just a simple but declarative statement that you love him, that you want to be married to him. You understand he needs some time but could you both agree to wait 6 months before doing anything just so that both of you can have time to make sure. Don't say this but remember you can stall the divorce as well if need be you can hold it off. But I would bring up the agreement he has already postponed so he should be okay with saying lets wait 6 months to be sure. Make sure not to pressure tho you want this to be a good statement of your intentions to be with HIM.

You are on track but remember you are in a race he is feeling you love right now but the OW is going to be trying her best to make deposits in his Love Band as well. So don't just sit on your laurels. Oh and do remember if you need anything we got your back.


----------



## TRy

CEL said:


> DO NOT STOP HAVING SEX WITH HIM. If you do he WILL divorce. The sex is how he feels loved if you stop he will feel you do not love HIM. YOU have to keep making him feel loved. Quite frankly the fact that you started having sex with him is the only reason he has not divorced YOU. When you started to have sex him it made HIM feel loved maybe for the first time in 4 years. In fact if he comes over YOU should instigate it, every time you have sex with him it is CONCRETE proof that YOU are changing. Here let me number it for you.
> 
> Sex =
> 
> 1. She loves me.
> 
> 2. She thinks I am worth something
> 
> 3. She thinks I am attractive.
> 
> 4. She thinks I am a good person.
> 
> 5. She is okay being vulnerable with me.
> 
> 6. I was vulnerable toward her and she did not hurt me.
> 
> 7. I love her.
> 
> Every time you have a sex with him or a sexually intimate moment you are making him feel all these things. That he cried when you had sex is a HUGE clue that sex is his primary way of feeling LOVED. I asked my girl onetime if she would leave a guy for not having sex and she said No. Why? Because it is not her primary love language she likes it but she can also do without it. Now if the guy was unable to spend quality time with her she would leave. For me it is backwards to feel loved I need sex otherwise I will leave. Whatever is YOUR way to feel loved imagine him not doing that but also rejecting you for it as well.
> 
> You can also spice things up by dressing sexy and flirting with him remember him feeling desired and having sex is going to be how he knows you love him. Also be aware he is telling the OW he is not having sex with you he is keeping that to himself so YOU get to have the steamy sexy fun stuff. When you see him knock his socks off in the future you can always try lingerie and sexy underwear but ONLY if you want to. Again I don't advocate doing things you don't want to do but dressing sexy when you know you are going to have sex is HOT.
> 
> Now since he is saying he might not be able to stay this is what you do. When you see him and he gives you the peck on the lips you turn it into a passionate kiss and tell him you missed him. Flirt with him a little and make sure you look nice. If done right I bet he will stay the night. Like I said kissing and a touch here and there will fire his blood for you and HE will stay. The whole he might not be able to stay is him pulling away you just need to entice him to stay. If you need help specifically on this you can PM me.


 :iagree::iagree::iagree:
@CEL: This is great advice for her that fits her situation well. You have not been posting here long, but I am becoming a fan. I am glad that you are here.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> That is AWESOME so lets recap a few things. You where always his Plan A she was always his Plan B. He wants to come back just needs some reassurance that it will not be like it was this GREAT in fact because really you don't want to go back to that as well so it gives you the push to do some good work on yourself and the marriage. Now lets move on to the steps let me know where you are at.
> 
> 1. Have you ordered the books His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters? I know you are reading how to stop divorce books these are books on how to have a GOOD marriage. They come with a lot of new ideas and work book like stuff you can do together to make sure you are meeting each others emotional needs. I know I keep harping on them but they will give you activities to do together to strengthen you bonds. These kinds of activities are going to show him ACTIONS that you are taking to make sure the marriage is not going to fall back. And actions are what he is looking for.
> 
> 2. How goes the IC scheduling? Are you going to start looking tomorrow? Once you get a concrete start date I would talk to your husband and tell him about it. Tell him that the trauma you went through 4 years ago was the catalyst for the behavior of the past 4 years and you never want to go back to that. You want to go to IC to make sure you deal with the issues so that it never happens again. This is a concrete action and these are what he is looking for to see you taking long term actions to prevent a repeat.
> 
> 3. How comes the letter? Here is link to a thread on a man who is in a sexless marriage and he wants to cheat http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/67002-infidelity-ok-sexless-marriage.html I would give it a read so that you can better understand what you husband went through. Make sure to touch on a few points "him feeling rejected, his humiliation at begging for sex and being turned down, his feelings of being unloved, his hurt that you pulled away, his pain at the fact that you seemingly did not care that he was hurting from a lack of love." This is to give him a sense that you get where he is coming from a great tag onto this is if you get the IC appointment you can tell him that you are going to figure out the WHY hopefully.
> 
> 4. Did you talk to him about Date Night? Or is Saturday going to be it? Remember every time you see him should be an event dress nice make sure you look your best these times are the times that you get to make deposits in his Love Bank. Make the most of them. Also never be afraid to initiate physical contact for people whose main love language is Sex the second is usually hugs, kisses, playful banter. This is how they feel needed and wanted.
> 
> 5. Did you talk to him about MC "marriage counseling"? This informs him that you again are taking concrete actions to change this is vastly important to him. Tell him you would like to interview them with him to find a good match.
> 
> 6. Did you have the talk informing him you are okay with dating him for now? That you understand he is a little gun shy and needs to see actions before coming back.
> 
> 7. Remember at LEAST one conversation everyday that is not about an event. How are you doing? Thinking of you? Hey was watching this show and made me think of so and so? I thought this was funny? All these are connections you are forging with him if you feel comfortable being flirty then do so but above all make them genuine connections. And no heave relationship stuff. Just light and fun.
> 
> 8. Have you sent a PM to Affaircare to ask her help in your thread?
> 
> 9. Next time bring up the subject of divorce just a simple but declarative statement that you love him, that you want to be married to him. You understand he needs some time but could you both agree to wait 6 months before doing anything just so that both of you can have time to make sure. Don't say this but remember you can stall the divorce as well if need be you can hold it off. But I would bring up the agreement he has already postponed so he should be okay with saying lets wait 6 months to be sure. Make sure not to pressure tho you want this to be a good statement of your intentions to be with HIM.
> 
> You are on track but remember you are in a race he is feeling you love right now but the OW is going to be trying her best to make deposits in his Love Band as well. So don't just sit on your laurels. Oh and do remember if you need anything we got your back.



Okay, thank you for all your help! I feel so much better knowing that I am getting guidance.

Let me respond to each part:

1. I just ordered both books for the kindle app on my iPad . I will start to read them today. Which one should I read first?

2. I think I have found an IC that seems to be a good choice. According to one website, she may not take my insurance. I live in a small town and counselor are few and far between. I am going to call her on Monday and see if she in fact does take my insurance and if not if she has a list of counselors. She also does MC.

3. I have been writing in a journal and today, I'm gonna practice writing some letters to him in there. I will read the post and your #3 while I write to make sure that I cover all the bases. Then I think you said to handwrite it to him, right? No email?

4. I did not specifically talk about Date Night. That is one of the things that he used to ask for and I would make excuses about why we can't. I will bring up how I would like to have at least one date (without our son) per week. This is hard at this time because when he comes over, our son and he really miss each other and need time together, too. I'm hoping he could come over early in the afternoon to play with our son and then, the night would be ours. I will talk to him about that. I'm thinking I should include it in the letter.

5. I haven't talk to him about MC yet. I will.

6. I didn't say it like that but, I did tell him that I understand that I need to have patience and be understanding and keep seeing him and waiting to see what he decides to do. I also told him that I understand his fears and hope that with time, he will trust me that our relationship won't go back to the way it was.

7. Okay, haven't been doing this but he has been calling from work and having heart to hearts with me about our relationship everyday. (I am a teacher and off for the summer.)

8. Yes, I sent affair care lady a PM yesterday. I have not heard from her but did go to her website and got a lot of insight. I read there that the spouse having an affair may try to have a quickie divorce in order to legitimize the affair partner and I definitely think he was doing that. He really thought our marriage was completely over at that time, so did I.

9. Our divorce was supposed to be final tomorrow and he called his lawyer and postponed it until August but date has not been set. I will talk to him about setting it even farther into the future when he brings it up. It is u contested and I don't have a lawyer. He basically is giving me everything except for a few pieces of furniture that he has now already taken. As far as custody, I'm the custodial parent and wants standard visitation and to give standard child support. Anyway, I think that I signed that I don't even need to be at the hearing or be informed of it for everything to be finalized.

So, now that he is gone back to his place and is with OW, anxiety is back up...I'm gonna start 1, do 3 tomorrow morning, and do 2 today.

Again, thank you and trying to stay calm and hopeful.


----------



## MattMatt

If you do have sex with your husband, make sure he uses a condom to protect your health from whatever his OW brought with her to the party.


----------



## kimmycat

We use condoms.


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Okay, thank you for all your help! I feel so much better knowing that I am getting guidance.
> 
> Let me respond to each part:
> 
> 1. I just ordered both books for the kindle app on my iPad . I will start to read them today. Which one should I read first?
> 
> 2. I think I have found an IC that seems to be a good choice. According to one website, she may not take my insurance. I live in a small town and counselor are few and far between. I am going to call her on Monday and see if she in fact does take my insurance and if not if she has a list of counselors. She also does MC.
> 
> 3. I have been writing in a journal and today, I'm gonna practice writing some letters to him in there. I will read the post and your #3 while I write to make sure that I cover all the bases. Then I think you said to handwrite it to him, right? No email?
> 
> 4. I did not specifically talk about Date Night. That is one of the things that he used to ask for and I would make excuses about why we can't. I will bring up how I would like to have at least one date (without our son) per week. This is hard at this time because when he comes over, our son and he really miss each other and need time together, too. I'm hoping he could come over early in the afternoon to play with our son and then, the night would be ours. I will talk to him about that. I'm thinking I should include it in the letter.
> 
> 5. I haven't talk to him about MC yet. I will.
> 
> 6. I didn't say it like that but, I did tell him that I understand that I need to have patience and be understanding and keep seeing him and waiting to see what he decides to do. I also told him that I understand his fears and hope that with time, he will trust me that our relationship won't go back to the way it was.
> 
> 7. Okay, haven't been doing this but he has been calling from work and having heart to hearts with me about our relationship everyday. (I am a teacher and off for the summer.)
> 
> 8. Yes, I sent affair care lady a PM yesterday. I have not heard from her but did go to her website and got a lot of insight. I read there that the spouse having an affair may try to have a quickie divorce in order to legitimize the affair partner and I definitely think he was doing that. He really thought our marriage was completely over at that time, so did I.
> 
> 9. Our divorce was supposed to be final tomorrow and he called his lawyer and postponed it until August but date has not been set. I will talk to him about setting it even farther into the future when he brings it up. It is u contested and I don't have a lawyer. He basically is giving me everything except for a few pieces of furniture that he has now already taken. As far as custody, I'm the custodial parent and wants standard visitation and to give standard child support. Anyway, I think that I signed that I don't even need to be at the hearing or be informed of it for everything to be finalized.
> 
> So, now that he is gone back to his place and is with OW, anxiety is back up...I'm gonna start 1, do 3 tomorrow morning, and do 2 today.
> 
> Again, thank you and trying to stay calm and hopeful.



Damn girl before you know it he will be back with you as long as you keep this up.

1. Read the His Needs Her Needs this is going to tell you about what his needs are and what your needs are. They have a questionnaire that you can do you can find it on there website once you read the book you should have a good idea about what the needs are. More importantly it will spell them out for you. Then when you get the chance to have him do it you can. Stay focused on the what his needs and your needs are at the moment. Leave the other questionnaire on how you are doing for LATER. Often that one freaks people out the first one is just a list that you number 1 to 10. A great place to start. The next book Love Busters is all about what NOT to do this is important because you will avoid these like the plague. Especially on the days you spend together. 

2. Good you are making progress even that is going to mean the WORLD to him. Next time you meet even if she does not work out let him know you are working on it or if you feel the moment is right when you are talking during the day about the relationship bring it up and your steps in making this happen. It will show him you are not only trying when he is with you but when he is not also it gives him piece of mind you are putting things in place for the future.

3. Good yes DO NOT EMAIL it only if you feel a major disconnect think of this as a first strike this is going to have a MASSIVE impact you want it to hit as hard as you can. So yes hand write it as long as he can read your writing. This will give it maximum impact he may be a little shocked after reading it but you WILL see signs after of him feeling safer around you. Don't be afraid to spend a few days on this it is a biggy and should be treated that way.

4. Yeah this is going to be touchy given the past but also SUPER good for him. So lets make this really hit him good. Bring it up that you want to spend quality time with JUST him that you love spending time with the son and him but that you need him to yourself sometimes. Then just ask him for a time that will work for him. He may balk a little as he is still going to be juggling the OW don't sweat it just let it stew he will come around. After all he WANTED this now you give it to him eventually he will say yes and give you a time. Now you make it big one by getting it done. YOU set up the sitter. YOU plan to take him to a place HE likes. YOU take care of everything. AND look smoking make it two lovers date not a husband and wife date. This is about romance and attraction with the main course being love.

5. Good bring it up with the counselor stuff again if you get the right time go with your instincts if it never feels right then wait for him to come over.

6. Good he is like a skittish horse that has been treated rough just keep your kid gloves on and treat him as if he has an injury and you will do fine. Sounds like you handled it great.

7. Good now don't let him be the only that starts conversations. You start sending him stuff NOT about the heart to heart stuff you want him to always start those. But you can tell him how your day is going or how you enjoyed being with him. Just about anything especially if your son does something good or funny or you just feel that welling up of love and pride reach out to him and share that with him. This will ground him in your marriage and keep him from floating away. Also he will miss his son and YOU more. So reach out to him. No need to be needy about it but walk the line of inviting him to talk but not begging to talk.

8. Yeah that is exactly what he was doing. She was always his second choice he just thought you did not love him anymore that's all. So he decided to SETTLE for someone else. Now you are showing how terrific you are and he is like WOW THIS is what I want. Afaircare will jump on when she gets a chance. Also if you get him to agree to MC and don't like your counselor you can reach out to her she does a Skype email thing that would be a real help to you. But see what the future holds for you.

9. Okay this is touchy so like late August or early August I am going to address both just in case. If early August then you need to reach out to him in the next 2 to 3 weeks no need to do it NOW and have this talk. You have the right touch so just say you understand he needs time and will give it to him but you just want some time to PROVE to him with your ACTIONS you are changed and would like a few months to do it in. If it is late August then set a reminder on your phone for August first and we can relook at this. So you can let this go for now but don't let if fall off the table.

Lets tackle the OW angle now. You are going to be anxious. You will feel insecure. You will feel hurt. You will have mind movies. I tell you these things so that you understand it is all okay to feel this way. Now the hard part, you can let him see it, when he talks to you and when you see him you have to not address these issues yet. Instead he needs to see your wonderful side. Crazy that it is this way when HE is having the affair BUT first we KILL the affair with EXTREME prejudice then we work on the making the marriage wonderful. So yes you can feel anything and everything but just keep it away from him you can freely vent here just start with the fact that you ARE going to vent so we do not freak out. LOL. Now that is the bad part here is the good part even tho he is with her he is dreaming of you. Yep that is right she sleeping right next to him and all he can think about is you. He may be living with her but he is TEXTING and talking to YOU. You are his focus right now NOT her. 

Again doing great as long as you keep this pace up you are going to be doing AWESOME.


----------



## TRy

First do not get your hopes too high as it is not a done deal. You are very late in the fight to save your marriage. Normally I would tell you to demand that he drop the other woman (OW), but in this case you are so close to divorce that had he not recently delayed the divorce from closing, you would have been just days away from the divorce being final and you becoming the other women to his new committed relationship.

Use the good of this bad situation to your advantage. Usually the other women (OW) is the worry free fantasy and the wife is the not as fun reality check with loads of real life expectations. By accepting to your inner self (not to him) that the divorce is almost final, you can free yourself from being the reality check wife to him and focus on being the fantasy. Ironically, the OW is now the reality check as she moved here and is placing expectations and demands on him in anticipation to the divorce being final. I think that she overplayed her hand by moving here before it was final thus he is now seeing her in her non-fantasy role too soon. Acting like you are the OW fun girl while letting him see her as the not so fun reality will give you your best shot. Do what CELL has recommended with little expectations and let him fall in love with you again. If you win do not make the same mistake as the OW did and do not over play your hand too soon. 

Good luck. You are at least back in the game.


----------



## kimmycat

You are right. I may be getting my hopes too high but, I am trying to feel positive. You have a very good point in that the OW is now reality, that is part of the hope that I am clinging to but, at the same time, I am feeling so much pain and anxiety knowing that he is with her all the time. All this is very painful foe my H, my son and for me. I take full responsibility fornthe fact that it took filing for divorce to break me out of my stubbornness and am doing everything that I can to show my husband that I love him, want him, respect him and that I am going to be here to fulfill all his needs from now on, IF he gives me the chance. I feel so much despair my stomach hurts...all I have is hope,prayer and the steps CEL has given me. I am trying so hard not to overplay my hand because this is so important for all of us.


----------



## Affaircare

Kimmycat, 

I'm going to take a moment and respond to you on each one of the suggestions CEL has given you:

*1. "Books to read to improve yourself and save your marriage"* For this suggestion, it seems you have already ordered the books and are on the move. I agree with what CEL told you about the books, and yet I very slightly disagree on one thing. First just for some terminology, I call "needs" Love Kindlers...the things that make the love blaze. I call "lovebusters" Love Extinguishers...the things that put out the flame of love. I would recommend focusing on and stopping the Love Extinguishers as priority NUMERO UNO and here's why. I've seen time and again where even a counselor will suggest to a couple that in order to rebuild their love, they need to do dates and do the little things for each other, but what happens is that the couple will do date night...he may buy flowers and she may be more physical with hugs and kisses...but it's like spinning their wheels and they are getting nowhere! Making no progress! Know why? Because while they do things to kindle Love...they haven't stopped doing the things that extinguish Love, so that whatever flame they do build, they also put out! 

On the other hand, if you do nothing other than stop doing the actions that extinguish Love and put out that flame, and then just carry on being the lovely person you are...any Love that you kindle from being "who you are" has a chance to build up! See...stopping the Extinguishers (the Love Busters) is vital, and I'm not in any way saying that you did this or you're responsible for his choice to cheat, but rather that being cut out and shut down and ignored gradually, over time, contributed to putting out his flame of Love. If you stop putting out the flame, it has a chance to grow. And don't just stop at giving more sex either-that's isn't the solution to everything. Look at yourself, how you act and react, the kind of person you are and how you want to be...and then learn how to BE who you want to be.

*2. "Individual Counseling" * Sounds like you are on a good track and you are taking action, so I'm just going to say "GOOD JOB" and let you continue as you are! 

*3. "Write him a heart-felt letter"* Again it sounds like you are making good progress on this suggestion. I would agree with CEL to hand write the letter rather than email. Email is fast but it's kind of impersonal and we want PERSONAL here. Also bear in mind that as ladies we might write pages and pages of emotion, and as a gentleman he may not be able to grasp and stay connected to pages and pages of emotion. So do you best to figure out what you are trying to say, and say it clearly. No "hinting" or having him "figure it out" or "he should know"....NOPE! Say it and get to the point. 

*4. "Date Night" * This one is fairly important. I don't think talking to him about wanting a date night and then saying something like "let's go out every Friday night" is going to be a wise thing because it might end up feeling like a burden rather than fun. So let me help you envision what this should be like. 

Okay, I don't know you at all, but as a person, I like to play online game, I like to listen to music/go to concerts, I like to watch scifi shows, I like old classic movies, I like to go out to eat and eat all kinds of different foods, I like to go to car shows, and I like dog shows....just for an example. Now if I said to you we have to go out and do one of those things every week, whether you like them or not, it would feel like another chore. You want this Date Night idea to be you and him being lovers but also doing something FUN together that you both like. So I might say to you: "Hey Kimmy...I was planning to go to that concert on Friday and have dinner at the Burger Barn first, and I would like it if you'd come too! Want to come?" Hey you may not like concerts or maybe not the Burger Barn, but for the fun of it you may come! Or likewise "Hey Kimmy, I don't feel like going out tonight but I want to hang out with you. Want to come over and watch a Cary Grant movie with me? I was going to order a pizza and you could bring the rootbeer!" See how that's just two folks having fun with each other??

So for date night, you think of what YOU like to do that he may also have some interest in...or something you know he LOVES that you have always wanted to learn more about...and you put the fun together. You ask him like one interesting, energetic, lively person asking another person to do something that will be enjoyable and interesting, and it doesn't have to be "going out" but could just be listening to a new CD or watching a concert on TV with a bottle of wine together. See, YOU act like a person who has interests and enjoys life, and like you want him to be an active part of sharing life with you...AND like what he is interested in is something you want to share with him!! So let's say he loves motorcycles and you know nothing about them....but he could go on and on about motorcycles. Okay....find a motorcycle show and tell him you got two tickets and before the show you want to go to XYZ for lunch! 

 Get it? Don't "talk"....DO. 

*5. "Marriage Counseling" * Bring that up when he indicates he wants to reconcile and is willing to end all contact with the OW. No point in bringing it up before that. 

*6. "He's afraid it will go back the way it was"* Well I don't mean this mean but that's reasonable! I think you handled it pretty well and if he does say something like that, just tell him "Hey I think it's reasonable for you to feel that way. I'm hoping to have the chance to show you the new me" and then just be quiet and show him. The thin line you'll want to tread though is that you want to show him the changes...you also want him to respect you, and it is NOT showing you respect to be with another woman while also being with you. So walk that line, and tell him you "get it" but you also are going to expect him to treat you like you are worthy of dignity. 

*7. "Reach out to him"* Again I generally agree, but walk the thin line of being needy and turning to him for everything or chitchat...and being interesting and including him in your life. I think it might be fun to just periodically share with him some cool thing that happened to you or something you heard or learned that meant something to you. 

*8. *LOL I am the Affaircare Lady so what can I say? :rofl: 

*9. "The Divorce Date" * Honestly? I like this:_ "Next time bring up the subject of divorce just a simple but declarative statement that you love him, that you want to be married to him."_ I realize that the 90 days have gone past and the divorce was supposed to be final, but it's cool to just tell him that you want to honor your vow and stay married and that's your choice. He's free to do what he chooses to do, but you choose to not divorce. I'd just say it. 

*10. "The Other Woman." * Here's the thing. The woman is a grownup and of her own free will she decided to leave everything behind and move here. There is NO WAY he is going to be able to leave her without hurting her, and there is no way the two of you are going to be able to rebuild your marriage while she is a third-party in the marriage. The best way to do an amputation for gangrene is not to slowly hack off a little over four or five days. You use a surgical cut and utterly remove it, and it hurts. 

So here's the thing. Again, you need walk a fine line. It is not reasonable for you to be involved in a relationship with a guy (any guy) who is also actively with another woman. If you and your husband had divorced, and you were dating some other person, would you put up with that? Then why would you put up with that from him when he's supposed to be your HUSBAND? 

So I would suggest that rather than focusing on the OW, read my article "What’s Going On in Affairland?" and assure yourself that life is not all rainbows and butterflies over there in affairland. BUT, you need to be who YOU are, you need to stop Love Extinguishers, you need to be the fun and interesting and happy lady you are inside your heart, and at some point you will need to let him know that you are wonderful and worth more than being his sloppy seconds. You want him and you love him, but you also want someone in your life who will give you 100% of their affection and loyalty. For now, don't worry about OW but at some point extremely soon, he is going to have to let her go, and there is no way to do it without hurting her.


----------



## CEL

Your doing find Kimmy no matter what happens you are taking the chance he HAS given you and are making the most of it. You can absolutely feel positive about that.


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## kimmycat

Thank you affaircare for your advice and encouragement. I have been on your website reading lots of articles, especially the affair land one and it was very helpful. All your advice and comments are very helpful. I really appreciate it.

I also really appreciate all of CEL's advice and encouragement, too.

I started reading His Needs, Her Needs and have now been reading Love Busters at the same time and the affaircare website.

I also called the counselor and left and message. I did not get a call back and plan on calling again tomorrow.

Sent a couple of happy, go lucky texts today and they were well received.

Still need to get to work on the letter. I have had company all day. A play date for my son and now, his parent is staying for dinner.


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## WorkingOnMe

I don't agree with having an affair, and introducing the kid is a really bad move. But I can't say I would honestly trust you to be back. I suspect you would shut down again once he has no options. It's probably time to just split.


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## CEL

Thank you Affaircare I have learned a ton from your advice. I think you are awesome. All if it is great advice Kimmy we are rooting for you


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## kimmycat

WorkingOnMe said:


> I don't agree with having an affair, and introducing the kid is a really bad move. But I can't say I would honestly trust you to be back. I suspect you would shut down again once he has no options. It's probably time to just split.


@WorkingOnMe,

I will not just shut down again, but, you have a right to your opinion...


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## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Thank you Affaircare I have learned a ton from your advice. I think you are awesome. All if it is great advice Kimmy we are rooting for you


Thank you!


----------



## kimmycat

I am having a very bad day because we have not had a heart to heart all week. He had told me it was going to be a busy week.

I called counselor Monday and have not had a returned call yet. I know I should call again but, I am not doing it.

I am reading Love Busters and almost finished and then, will go back to His Needs, Her Needs.

I am texting happy texts about 3 times per day.

He called me Monday that he woke up with a super swollen neck and went right to the doctor. She thought it was a goiter but, Tuesday, blood tests came back negative for thyroid stuff. However, it might be a nodule on his thyroid and he is going to have an ultra sound on Tuesday. I fear for his health and I fear that OW will go with him for test. I asked him if I could go and he said no, that it is early in early in the morning. I am just so sad cuz I think it means that he is taking her with him. I have told him that I am praying for him and here for him.

I am just feeling terrible today...my hope is dwindling...we do not yet have plans for the weekend and I know that is part of it. I just don't want to pressure him.


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## kimmycat

I just left another message at counselor's office.


----------



## CEL

Okay Kimmy it is okay remember you will have days like this and it is okay to feel insecure. So let's get down to the truth most likely the OW will go with him, and that is just going to happen. Now you can't control that so lets talk about stuff you CAN control.

1. How is the letter coming?

2. Get that call in to IC this is a concrete step that will help. Right now you feel like if he is not with you he is moving on but him not being with you has advantages too those being you get to work on stuff with no distractions.

3. Find out when the appointment is and call him after. You can also let him know you don't care what time it is you would love to go with him. 

5. Good job on the texts keep those up and stay away from bringing up the heavy stuff unless he does. I know you want to talk heavy but the real healing comes after those talks you guys had a lot of heavy stuff over the weekend that was a big step now he needs to get used to this depth once he is used to it he will start again.

6. Do things with your son if you can. How old is he? Then let your husband know what is going on. This has two benefits as it gives you something to do so you don't explode and teases him with his family. Just like "had a great time at, or we went to dinner at, or son just had so and so over those kinds of things"

7. It is Wednesday ask him about the weekend. Make sure to include that with his doctor appointment you would love to see him given his health concerns. 

8. Are you able to see him for lunch that day? Or really any day this is a great way to get in a mini date.

You are doing great these days will come but they will also go. You are making good progress and are putting the right things in place. This will be hard but it also will be worth it either way.


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## kimmycat

Thank you, CEL for your words of encouragement.

I will respond to each:

1. Letter is ready. I bought a special card to write it in and finished last night.

2. I put another call into the counselor around an hour ago and haven't heard back yet.

3. The appointment is 8:00 AM on Tuesday and I already told him that I would be there however early or late but he said no. I will call him after.

5. I have already sent one text today and it was well received. I messed up and emailed him at work late last night saying only: Our son is already asleep and I wish you were here and I love you. He must have read it when he got to work this morning but didn't respond to it.

6. My son is 8. He has had play dates every day this week that my H set up with his best friend. They have been here at our house. I have sent some pics of the kids playing with water guns in the backyard and he enjoyed those.

7. Today is the last of his very busy days. Should I still ask about the weekend already? 

8. I have asked about lunch many times and he usually says he has a lunch appt or that he took his lunch to work. I will ask again

Really trying to keep my head up and praying a lot.


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## kimmycat

Everafter2013 said:


> Hi Kimmy,
> 
> I know you are hurting now and probably tough love is the last thing you want to hear. If yes, please feel free to tell me to butt out.
> 
> You are still his wife on paper, but he has moved out and lived with the OW. Technically you are not an AP, but that's how he has been treating you now. Having sex when he can steal one or two hours away from her. Stringing you along. The irony of the OW being cheated on, she totally deserves it...but why are you doing this to yourself? I'd tell her what has been going on and then just go dark on his fence-sitting, cake-eating *ss.


CEL: Do YOU think I should tell her what is going on since you know the whole story? I don't think it is a good idea. I need him to trust me. I really don't like that idea.


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## LetDownNTX

Where does his girlfriend/live in think that he is when he is spending the night with you?

I ask because my WH lived with his OW for a time and was always at my house and doing things with me. It was a sick game I played!! He would tell the OW that he was spending time with his kids when 99% of the time it was about me and him and not our kids (to him).


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## kimmycat

LetDownNTX said:


> Where does his girlfriend/live in think that he is when he is spending the night with you?
> 
> I ask because my WH lived with his OW for a time and was always at my house and doing things with me. It was a sick game I played!! He would tell the OW that he was spending time with his kids when 99% of the time it was about me and him and not our kids (to him).


He tells her that he is with us. Did ya'll reconcile?


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## CEL

kimmycat said:


> CEL: Do YOU think I should tell her what is going on since you know the whole story? I don't think it is a good idea. I need him to trust me. I really don't like that idea.


NO DO NOT TELL. You want your husband back and to do that we have to stop the affair so the reasons to tell would be the following.

1. Puts pressure on her that she is still with a married man. Informs her that the married man is still sleeping with his wife and talking about getting back together.

2. By doing this you are trying to get her to back off or to sour the relationship with the husband.

3. This will be completely noneffective because she KNOWS he is sleeping with you. Oh he may tell her different but she knows it she got into a relationship with him while she was married this whole gambit is designed to appeal to her pride and morals. Given the past this will only cause animosity yes she will get mad but she will not end it. 

4. By doing this you lose the ground you have already covered. You will lose his trust which is the most important thing at the moment.


This gambit would work if he was living more of a double life I am sure they just don't talk about his stays with you or if they do he probably does lie about it but creating friction by going behind his back and sabotaging is not the way to regain his trust. Later we can look at this but right now you have progress doing what you are doing so I would NOT do this.


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## kimmycat

Thank you, CEL.


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## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Thank you, CEL for your words of encouragement.
> 
> I will respond to each:
> 
> 1. Letter is ready. I bought a special card to write it in and finished last night.
> 
> 2. I put another call into the counselor around an hour ago and haven't heard back yet.
> 
> 3. The appointment is 8:00 AM on Tuesday and I already told him that I would be there however early or late but he said no. I will call him after.
> 
> 5. I have already sent one text today and it was well received. I messed up and emailed him at work late last night saying only: Our son is already asleep and I wish you were here and I love you. He must have read it when he got to work this morning but didn't respond to it.
> 
> 6. My son is 8. He has had play dates every day this week that my H set up with his best friend. They have been here at our house. I have sent some pics of the kids playing with water guns in the backyard and he enjoyed those.
> 
> 7. Today is the last of his very busy days. Should I still ask about the weekend already?
> 
> 8. I have asked about lunch many times and he usually says he has a lunch appt or that he took his lunch to work. I will ask again
> 
> Really trying to keep my head up and praying a lot.


Okay you are holding the course and look like you are doing great lets just review with some points.

1, Great this is awesome next time when he is over and you get some quiet time that will not be interupted give it to him and sit with him while he reads it. He may have questions or he may cry or just want to be alone but this is great.

2. Good keep working on the counselor make sure to bring this up this weekend if he comes over.

3. Good give him call then and make sure he is okay let him know you will call him so it is not a surprise.

5. You did not mess up you expressed yourself and that is okay you can tell him you love him and miss him even if you don't get a response it does no mean it did not hit him in the guy. Just don't go to far with it as it will come across as pressure but every once in awhile is okay.

6. This is golden also do not shy away from sending stuff just about you as well.

7. I would wait till tomorrow if today is his busy day.

8. Okay then it looks like he is just getting acclimated to this right now remember the disconnect took time to happen and the healing will take time as well. I would ask him maybe once a week if he would like to do lunch so wait on this till next week.


Listen you are doing great everything you can do you are doing. The biggest point is just to make every interaction good remember for you it will be quality not quantity. And you did the right thing when you are feeling down come on her and post not like we have lives....LOL


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## LetDownNTX

kimmycat said:


> He tells her that he is with us. Did ya'll reconcile?


Well....currently we are R and have been since April but for the three years prior to that we were in false R, as I discovered in April more contact with the OW.

At this point I dont know what we are doing but we seem to be doing it well...for now!


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## kimmycat

LetDownNTX said:


> Well....currently we are R and have been since April but for the three years prior to that we were in false R, as I discovered in April more contact with the OW.
> 
> At this point I dont know what we are doing but we seem to be doing it well...for now!


Glad you are reconciled!  Gives me hope


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## LetDownNTX

kimmycat said:


> Glad you are reconciled! Gives me hope


I wouldnt say we are 'reconciled' but we are working towards that. No matter how you feel at this moment or how bad you want him home and your family in tact it will always haunt you that he went to someone else.


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## kimmycat

Feeling a little better today cuz of the following:

1. Counselor called yesterday evening and I made an appt. for next Wednesday at 2:00 and I secured a babysitter. She says first session takes about 1 and a 1/2 hours. Happy about that albeit a little nervous.

2. H called around 5 yesterday and he is coming over tonight for dinner. 

3. I decided to ask him about the weekend and tried for Fri-Sun and he said he couldn't do that but, maybe Saturday night. I guess she is not going out of town for wkend like I hoped.

Still, feeling a lot better than yesterday.

His letter is ready but I am going to keep it for Saturday since he will only be here for 1-1/2 hours this evening. Is that good?


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## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Feeling a little better today cuz of the following:
> 
> 1. Counselor called yesterday evening and I made an appt. for next Wednesday at 2:00 and I secured a babysitter. She says first session takes about 1 and a 1/2 hours. Happy about that albeit a little nervous.
> 
> 2. H called around 5 yesterday and he is coming over tonight for dinner.
> 
> 3. I decided to ask him about the weekend and tried for Fri-Sun and he said he couldn't do that but, maybe Saturday night. I guess she is not going out of town for wkend like I hoped.
> 
> Still, feeling a lot better than yesterday.
> 
> His letter is ready but I am going to keep it for Saturday since he will only be here for 1-1/2 hours this evening. Is that good?


Well this looks really good I can't find anything that does not look promising from your perspective so.

1. This is awesome when he comes over tonight mention it to him, when he asks why let him know the truth that you shut down for 4 years and disconnected from the person you love more than anything and that to make sure it does not happen again you want to know the WHY of it. Just hit those points and you should be golden. 

2. So he set a date with YOU huh? That has to tell you something right there now he is looking for ways to come and see you. Just make sure you make the most of it that means dress nice and show him how awesome you are. Remember the OW may get quantity but you get quality so make sure it is a good time.

3. So do you know for certain she is going out of town? If so this is great it means that he is being truthful with you that she wants him to go out with her and that he is declining trying to give her the hint that it will not work. That would be almost as big as him postponing the divorce because he is making a clear choice not to move forward with HER.

As for the letter yeah wait on that until you get a good chunk of alone time unless something drastic happens you will get one shot with that so we want it to be an intimate moment with all the connections firing. You might want to bring up date night with him but you will have to wing it if he is just relaxing and you are not in the deep heavy relationship stuff then wait on it. If you do get into it start it out with a "You were right we should of done the date night thing I am sorry I did not see it. I would like to start doing it when you feel comfortable with it. I would love to spend just time with you one on one." Those three points will hit the hardest with him. How did his doctor appointment go? Did you call him?


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## kimmycat

CEL;2819186)
3. So do you know for certain she is going out of town? If so this is great it means that he is being truthful with you that she wants him to go out with her and that he is declining trying to give her the hint that it will not work. That would be almost as big as him postponing the divorce because he is making a clear choice not to move forward with HER.
As for the letter yeah wait on that until you get a good chunk of alone time unless something drastic happens you will get one shot with that so we want it to be an intimate moment with all the connections firing. You might want to bring up date night with him but you will have to wing it if he is just relaxing and you are not in the deep heavy relationship stuff then wait on it. If you do get into it start it out with a "You were right we should of done the date night thing I am sorry I did not see it. I would like to start doing it when you feel comfortable with it. I would love to spend just time with you one on one." Those three points will hit the hardest with him. How did his doctor appointment go? Did you call him?[/QUOTE said:


> I think she is NOT going out of town at all. I am worried that they plan on going for the 4th and make a vacation out of it. That will be horrible. I don't know how I will be able to handle that.
> 
> His Dr.'s appointment ( really a tests at the hospital) is not going to be until this coming Tuesday, July 2.
> 
> I was feeling better in the AM, no anxiety is starting up again. Trying to think positive but can't help worrying that he is getting used to her and thinking that he will stay with her. I feel my hope dwindling...


----------



## LetDownNTX

I really do hate reading your posts and seeing with you describe because it reminds me so much of where I was at one point. Sitting and waiting for anything from my H while he lived with the OW. He would be with me at times and she would message him (email back then before his company paid for texts) and would beg him to come "home". Its so sickening and the feelings you are having to feel are awful!

Part of me wants to tell you to knock it off and dont be there for him everytime he wants you to be but I also remember how I felt when I was in that position and it wasnt easy to do. I will tell you one thing I learned....when I stopped being available to him when HE wanted me to be he started putting in a little more effort to change his situation.  I had a counselor back then that would tell me that if he said he was going to call or come over at 11 am then to have plans for 1115 and if I didnt hear from him to go on with th e plan. I was so pathetic I would sit and wait for him to call or change my plans when he did call....DONT DO THAT!! Do you answer the phone on the first ring everytime he calls? Dont do that either!


----------



## CEL

LetDownNTX said:


> I really do hate reading your posts and seeing with you describe because it reminds me so much of where I was at one point. Sitting and waiting for anything from my H while he lived with the OW. He would be with me at times and she would message him (email back then before his company paid for texts) and would beg him to come "home". Its so sickening and the feelings you are having to feel are awful!
> 
> Part of me wants to tell you to knock it off and dont be there for him everytime he wants you to be but I also remember how I felt when I was in that position and it wasnt easy to do. I will tell you one thing I learned....when I stopped being available to him when HE wanted me to be he started putting in a little more effort to change his situation. I had a counselor back then that would tell me that if he said he was going to call or come over at 11 am then to have plans for 1115 and if I didnt hear from him to go on with th e plan. I was so pathetic I would sit and wait for him to call or change my plans when he did call....DONT DO THAT!! Do you answer the phone on the first ring everytime he calls? Dont do that either!


I think her situation and yours differ on a few points but I would like your feedback if you agree or disagree as I do greatly respect your opinion.

1. Her husband filled for divorce they actually completed the paper work and were very close to divorce as in weeks.

2. He moved out to an apartment that was on his dollar the OW moved to be with him.

3. As soon as she showed signs of wanting to reconnect with him he stopped the divorce.

4. Before the was willing to divorce for 4 years he was very committed and tried to get into MC, date night, etc all the things you would do to rekindle the romantic feelings.

Your husband just seems like a different animal altogether with his multi-year affair and unwillingness to work on the relationship. Did you husband before his affair ever express a strong desire to make the marriage better? Did he ever file for divorce? Was there a sense of his emotional needs not being met? I feel your husband fits more into the cake eating cheater mentality "no offence" where he wanted to have you both and was great with that. There by your using the 180 was a declaration that he had to choose or you would for him. In this case you have what was basically a bad marriage for 4 years that is the root problem the husband however was beaten down by the lack of what he felt was love and would not move on until he felt he was worth something. Once he had this women and I really feel any women would of done just something to restore his self confidence enough he decided to file. His only reason for stopping was the changes he witnessed in his wife.

So we keep coming around to going dark and doing the 180. I don't feel this would be a good idea for the above reasons. This husband is okay with moving on I think he wants to stay with her but is leery that the recent changes will not hold. If she starts distancing from him he will rightly think she has reverted well he was willing to divorce her when she was that way so why would he not be willing to now. Again the root problem is not that he wanted things on the side he sounds as if for years he was trying to work on the marriage until finally he could not anymore. I would like to know what your thoughts are on this LetDown.


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> I think she is NOT going out of town at all. I am worried that they plan on going for the 4th and make a vacation out of it. That will be horrible. I don't know how I will be able to handle that.
> 
> His Dr.'s appointment ( really a tests at the hospital) is not going to be until this coming Tuesday, July 2.
> 
> I was feeling better in the AM, no anxiety is starting up again. Trying to think positive but can't help worrying that he is getting used to her and thinking that he will stay with her. I feel my hope dwindling...



Your mind will be your worst enemy. But it is okay to feel this way anxiety is natural just look at where you are as opposed to just last week.

1. You don't know that they will have plans on the 4th why don't you try to make plans with him. His son is going to want to see some fireworks see if you have any good shows nearby see if he would be willing to go with and make it a family event. Ask him if he is going to be spending the holiday on a vacation with her better to have it out in the open then for it to eat you from the inside

2. You have a date with him tonight focus on that. Let him know about the counselor.

3. How far are you into the His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters? Can you guess his emotional needs? Do you know what your worst Love Busting behavior is? 


Now lets talk about hope. Last week you were almost divorced and he was closed off now the is talking more, he is telling you he wants to be with you, he is making dates with you, you are having sex, he has opened up a lot more emotionally to you, he has been vulnerable with you about his dreams. You are making GREAT progress just keep you head up. Keep posting any time you want but especially if you are feeling down. Again you are going great keep fighting and we are here and do care about you.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Your mind will be your worst enemy. But it is okay to feel this way anxiety is natural just look at where you are as opposed to just last week.
> 
> 1. You don't know that they will have plans on the 4th why don't you try to make plans with him. His son is going to want to see some fireworks see if you have any good shows nearby see if he would be willing to go with and make it a family event. Ask him if he is going to be spending the holiday on a vacation with her better to have it out in the open then for it to eat you from the inside
> 
> 2. You have a date with him tonight focus on that. Let him know about the counselor.
> 
> 3. How far are you into the His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters? Can you guess his emotional needs? Do you know what your worst Love Busting behavior is?
> 
> 
> Now lets talk about hope. Last week you were almost divorced and he was closed off now the is talking more, he is telling you he wants to be with you, he is making dates with you, you are having sex, he has opened up a lot more emotionally to you, he has been vulnerable with you about his dreams. You are making GREAT progress just keep you head up. Keep posting any time you want but especially if you are feeling down. Again you are going great keep fighting and we are here and do care about you.


Hi, that was a quick 3 hours! Some good things and hurtful news, as well.

Let me respond to your points first:

1. While we were having dinner that was ready right when he got here so I could spend time with him and not cooking, I asked what he was doing for the 4th and he didn't respond. He is very careful in answering any questions, I have noticed. I just happily said, I'm sure our son would like to shoot fireworks with you. (Believe it or not our city allows fireworks in our driveway and it is a tradition for us even on New Year's Eve.). He just grinned and did not comment.

2. I let him know about the counselor and reminded him that I will be working on myself and finding our why I shut down for so long.

3. I finished Love Busters today and am now, back to His Needs, H Needs. I am not sure what his other emotional needs are but I know they include pampering, appreciating, listening actively about his day and of course #1 is sex.

Well, first for the good news: after dinner, I was washing dishes and he came up behind me and hugged me and twirled me around and gave me a passionate kiss and thanked me for making him dinner. Then, he held me close and said, I wish we could sneak off somewhere, but our son is awake. I said, we can! He is playing his video game! So, into the bedroom, lock the door and love, love, love! Quick but very nice! I made sure to tell him how much I love him after and he told me that he loves me, too!

Now, for the hurtful part. We went outside to our back patio and I said I wish you could stay the whole weekend this time and he said, um, I might be going out of town, not for the reason I was before, but some of my Ren Faire friends are getting together and I might go. Oh, okay. I said, alone? And he said, no, she will go with me, one of them is her good friend. I stayed calm and cool even though I now realize that he met her at a Ren faire, something we used to do together but stopped 4 years ago. He started going alone and that is how we met her. I was going to suggest that we start going together, again based on what I learned from Love Busters about Independent Behaviors. Now, I guess not, if she is part of his group of friends that he has made since I stopped going. Anyway, he said that he hadn't been very nice to her and that he needed to take her even though he says he suggested that she not go. And she was like, what about me? I said, I understand but want you to know that it is very painful for me to know that you are going to take her and you are wanting to make up to her that you haven't been very nice to her. He said, yes you are being very understanding and I really appreciate it. Then he said, hon, we still don't know what is going to happen. Even if she left, I just can't come back yet. I don't even think he said yet.

OUCH! Well, then we went inside to watch Big Bang Theory episodes on the DVR, his favorite show. I watched with him and laughed and enjoyed it with him even though he kept getting texts and responding. That was also painful and distracting.

When he left, he said he may not be going out of town cuz he does have to work late since it is his end of the month closing at work and if not, he is definitely coming over. But, he then, said he MIGHT still go out of town. He told our son he would call in the morning and will probably see him Saturday.

So, the groups of friends that he wants to see are THEIR friends together...this is sooooooooooooooooooo difficult.

I am feeling very bad, right now. I am so down about the fact that this person got into his life and I know I am 50% responsible. let me explain some more: He said when I first made my turnaround that he can't believe it cuz he tried to talk to me about it soooooo many times for 4 years and I had walls up and would not budge! He said he was in so much pain all that time and I never cared. He described that me being lovable and amorous all the time was like a switch that was turned off and after Mother's Day, the switched just flipped on and he is very resentful of that. He said he had tried to show he cared for 4 years, what is so special about how he treated me Mother's Day weekend? Well, he was attentive just to me and not to my son and I. You know, he wasn't just doing things for my son that i happened to benefit from like cooking dinner most nights, cleaning the dishes, taking US to the movies, out to dinner, etc. He gave me a massage, bathed me, asked me to go outside and talk to him while he BBQed for us...all things JUST for me that he had never tried. Now, from reading Love Busters, I think the things he had been trying for 4 years were things that were HIS needs and not mine. Mother's Day weekend he did the things I need and made me feel loved AND he had filed for divorce and I knew I was losing him.

Trying to keep up hope and patience.


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Hi, that was a quick 3 hours! Some good things and hurtful news, as well.
> 
> Let me respond to your points first:
> 
> 1. While we were having dinner that was ready right when he got here so I could spend time with him and not cooking, I asked what he was doing for the 4th and he didn't respond. He is very careful in answering any questions, I have noticed. I just happily said, I'm sure our son would like to shoot fireworks with you. (Believe it or not our city allows fireworks in our driveway and it is a tradition for us even on New Year's Eve.). He just grinned and did not comment.
> 
> 2. I let him know about the counselor and reminded him that I will be working on myself and finding our why I shut down for so long.
> 
> 3. I finished Love Busters today and am now, back to His Needs, H Needs. I manor sure what his other emotional needs are but I know they include pampering, appreciating, listening actively abut his day and of course #1 is sex.
> 
> Well, first for the good news: after dinner, I was washing dishes and he came up behind me and hugged me and twirled me around and gave me a passionate kiss and thanked me for making him dinner. Then, he held me close and said, I wish we could sneak off somewhere, but our son is awake. I said, we can! He is playing his video game! So, into the bedroom, lock the door and love, love, love! Quick but very nice! I made sure to tell him how much I love him after and he told me that he loves me, too!
> 
> Now, for the hurtful part. We went outside to our back patio and I said I wish you could stay the whole weekend this time and he said, um, I might be going out of town, not for the reason I was before, but some of my Ren Faires friends are getting together and I might go. Oh, okay. I said, alone? And he said, no, she will go with me, one of them is her good friend. I stayed calm and cool even though I now realize that he met her at a Ren faire, something we used to do together but stopped 4 years ago. He started going alone and that is how we met her. I was going to suggest that we start going together, again based on what I learned from Love Busters about Independent Behaviors. Now, I guess not, if she is part of his group of friends that he has made since I stopped going. Anyway, he said that he hadn't been very nice to her and that he needed to take her even though he says he suggested that she not go. I said, I understand but want you to know that it is very painful for me to know that you are going to take her and you are wanting to make up to her that you haven't been very nice to her. He said, yes you are being very understanding and I really appreciate it. We don't know what is going to happen.
> 
> OUCH! Well, then we went inside to watch Big Bang Theory episodes on the DVR, his favorite show. I watched with him and laughed and enjoyed it with him even though he kept getting texts and responding. That was also painful and distracting.
> 
> When he left, he said he may not be going out of town cuz he does have to work late and if not, he is definitely coming over. But, he then, said he MIGHT still go out of town.
> 
> So, the groups of friends that he wants to see are THEIR friends together...this is sooooooooooooooooooo difficult.



Wow Kimmy you are doing really really good. Take a moment to feel good about the fact that you are really on the ball. So I am going to take apart your post and tell you what I think.



kimmycat said:


> 1. While we were having dinner that was ready right when he got here so I could spend time with him and not cooking, I asked what he was doing for the 4th and he didn't respond. He is very careful in answering any questions, I have noticed. I just happily said, I'm sure our son would like to shoot fireworks with you. (Believe it or not our city allows fireworks in our driveway and it is a tradition for us even on New Year's Eve.). He just grinned and did not comment.


This was done really well your tone was good and you phrased it just right he is still a little leery but that is understandable as he feels pressure from all sides. But you laid down the seeds we will see if this comes to fruition or not but I think this was done just right. WELL DONE.



kimmycat said:


> Well, first for the good news: after dinner, I was washing dishes and he came up behind me and hugged me and twirled me around and gave me a passionate kiss and thanked me for making him dinner. Then, he held me close and said, I wish we could sneak off somewhere, but our son is awake. I said, we can! He is playing his video game! So, into the bedroom, lock the door and love, love, love! Quick but very nice! I made sure to tell him how much I love him after and he told me that he loves me, too!


This was huge you handled this better than many I have seen. He initiated and then backed off this was test on your part he wanted to but was also hesitant because of in the past you have drawn away in addition this is a new dynamic for him. In the past you have only done it at night after everything has been done for the day. You stepped up and chased HIM that had to feel great to him and no doubt he will be thinking of that for days to come. This is what he will get from that "She loves me, She thinks I am attractive, She cares about me, When I need to feel loved she will be there for me." You initiated as soon as he pulled away in a classy and wonderfully wifely fashion. This made the NIGHT for him have no doubt about that.



kimmycat said:


> Now, for the hurtful part. We went outside to our back patio and I said I wish you could stay the whole weekend this time and he said, um, I might be going out of town, not for the reason I was before, but some of my Ren Faires friends are getting together and I might go. Oh, okay. I said, alone? And he said, no, she will go with me, one of them is her good friend. I stayed calm and cool even though I now realize that he met her at a Ren faire, something we used to do together but stopped 4 years ago. He started going alone and that is how we met her. I was going to suggest that we start going together, again based on what I learned from Love Busters about Independent Behaviors.


Now as hurtful as this is I want you to take a step back from this. Now you can see HOW this started it was not just about the sex it was a complete disconnect 4 years ago you started to distance yourself from him. He had things he did alone and you were okay with that because you did not want to do them. This allowed the affair proper boundaries in a relationship are what make it affair proof. Now you know you noticed the behavior and you noticed it was Love Busting. As painful as this is you have to be happy with yourself because when you get him back you will know that this is an area to work on. NO MORE independent dates. A couple does things together. And not only that but you understood that this was an opportunity to improve the marriage again this is a good way from where you were. Look at how far you have come you now can SEE what is good and bad for the relationship and WHY. Good for you.

Now lets take this outing I would not put to much into it he is not going to do it WITH her it is not something he is doing just for her. He is going because he has been doing this for years and she is part of it. So do not make this into something romantic. Is it dangerous? Yes. Could you lose some ground? Yes. But can you gain that ground back? Hell Yes if you even do lose any ground. I say this because I will not lie to you. 




kimmycat said:


> Anyway, he said that he hadn't been very nice to her and that he needed to take her even though he says he suggested that she not go. I said, I understand but want you to know that it is very painful for me to know that you are going to take her and you are wanting to make up to her that you haven't been very nice to her. He said, yes you are being very understanding and I really appreciate it. We don't know what is going to happen.


Again well done this is how you handle things don't hide your feeling from him. YOU DO NOT condone the AFFAIR. He is hurting you and his behavior no matter what you did does NOT under any circumstances excuse him having an affair. So you told him how you felt in a non dramatic fashion and he acknowledged that you are being a wonderful women WITHOUT being a doormat. What did he say specifically on "We don't know what is going to happen?" Just how did this go?



kimmycat said:


> OUCH! Well, then we went inside to watch Big Bang Theory episodes on the DVR, his favorite show. I watched with him and laughed and enjoyed it with him even though he kept getting texts and responding. That was also painful and distracting.


Lots of texts? Of or just few? If he is always responding on his phone then this something to gently bring up. Just simple please don't answer her when we are together it hurts me. Very simple and direct and a make it a request. Like I said you DO NOT condone the affair when it hurts you, tell him you don't have to be judgmental or start a fight in fact avoid both of those but you can be reasonable. I think once you ask him he will put it away.



kimmycat said:


> When he left, he said he may not be going out of town cuz he does have to work late and if not, he is definitely coming over. But, he then, said he MIGHT still go out of town.
> 
> So, the groups of friends that he wants to see are THEIR friends together...this is sooooooooooooooooooo difficult.


So he first says well I have to go away at first then as he gets around you he thinks "This is awesome why the hell would I want to go away when I can have great sex with my WIFE and spend time with my SON. I don't think this was lie or a tease on his part I think this is honestly him starting to GET IT. Yes he wants to see those friends. Yes he wants to try to be nice to the OW. But in all this you need to understand for YEARS all he wanted to do is spend days like this with YOU. Now that he is having that he REALLY just wants to be with you. Take it another way he came to you tonight with a plan of how his week was going to go and you know what you with your wonderfulness made him doubt that plan, you made him rethink it as YOU are looking like a LOT more fun to be with. Now will it happen? I don't know but it would not surprise me if he decided to stay with you this weekend. Plus he says clearly if he does not go out of town then he WILL stay with you so in the future you can expect him to be WAY more open to this even if it does not pan out this weekend.

Now lets address the OW this is how I feel. I don't give a shyte what she gave up. I don't care how much she loves YOUR husband. All that matters is that you get him back once that happens you both will still have work to do but we need her GONE before we can get there. You are making VERY GOOD progress in both changing yourself, educating yourself and getting your husband back. This was a GREAT step forward.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Again well done this is how you handle things don't hide your feeling from him. YOU DO NOT condone the AFFAIR. He is hurting you and his behavior no matter what you did does NOT under any circumstances excuse him having an affair. So you told him how you felt in a non dramatic fashion and he acknowledged that you are being a wonderful women WITHOUT being a doormat. What did he say specifically on "We don't know what is going to happen?" Just how did this go?
> 
> 
> 
> Lots of texts? Of or just few? If he is always responding on his phone then this something to gently bring up. Just simple please don't answer her when we are together it hurts me. Very simple and direct and a make it a request. Like I said you DO NOT condone the affair when it hurts you, tell him you don't have to be judgmental or start a fight in fact avoid both of those but you can be reasonable. I think once you ask him he will put it away.
> 
> 
> .


Okay, after he said he appreciates how I am handling it. When he said, "We still don't know what is going to happen." He also said if she decides to end this, I don't know if I'm coming back". I added, "0r if YOU decide to end it?" And he said, "Or me" ( the or me was not very enthusiastic AT ALL!!!! I can't remember what other specifics, but, it did not make me feel that he intends to come back. 

Before he told me about the trip, when we were on the patio (just after having sex, which made his reaction very difficult, also), I said that I hoped that he could the whole weekend and it said that that wasn't going to happen, he didn't even know if he could actually spend the night ( same thing he said last week). So, if I get to be with him at all, it will only be for Saturday night and hopefully, a movie during the afternoon Sat or Sun (Monster's University with our son). After that, he said he might be going out of town to get together with friends from Ren Faire's. 

Just a few but he keeps his phone right next to him and responds quickly. this is something he was doing when he was still living here and he had already told me about the OW. Something, he knows hurts me. But, I have never asked that he not do it, flat out matter of factly. He does know it hurts me though. I think he just expects me to be understanding again because of the OW. That is really, really hard and wierd. It must be how an OW feels and I do NOT like feeling that way.:lol: I truly do NOT know how I am surviving. Just the thought that my own H is with another woman is just overwhelmingly painful and feels like a nightmare. 


WOW! You really thought it was a successful night! Thank you a million times for the encouragement and the perspective. I am learning a lot from you and the books I am reading at it really does help me get through this...


----------



## kimmycat

That smile I added does not mean LOL to me, it means, NIGHTMARE


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Okay, after he said he appreciates how I am handling it. When he said, "We still don't know what is going to happen." He also said if she decides to end this, I don't know if I'm coming back". I added, "0r if YOU decide to end it?" And he said, "Or me" ( the or me was not very enthusiastic AT ALL!!!! I can't remember what other specifics, but, it did not make me feel that he intends to come back.
> 
> Before he told me about the trip, when we were on the patio (just after having sex, which made his reaction very difficult, also), I said that I hoped that he could the whole weekend and it said that that wasn't going to happen, he didn't even know if he could actually spend the night ( same thing he said last week). So, if I get to be with him at all, it will only be for Saturday night and hopefully, a movie during the afternoon Sat or Sun (Monster's University with our son). After that, he said he might be going out of town to get together with friends from Ren Faire's.
> 
> Just a few but he keeps his phone right next to him and responds quickly. this is something he was doing when he was still living here and he had already told me about the OW. Something, he knows hurts me. But, I have never asked that he not do it, flat out matter of factly. He does know it hurts me though. I think he just expects me to be understanding again because of the OW. That is really, really hard and wierd. It must be how an OW feels and I do NOT like feeling that way.:lol: I truly do NOT know how I am surviving. Just the thought that my own H is with another woman is just overwhelmingly painful and feels like a nightmare.
> 
> 
> WOW! You really thought it was a successful night! Thank you a million times for the encouragement and the perspective. I am learning a lot from you and the books I am reading at it really does help me get through this...



Honestly it was successful but that does not mean it is not a shyte situation. If it was not killing you well then you would not be in love with him. That is the bad part of this situation one thing that you will have to do is accept that this is a roller coaster ride you will have ups and downs some days you will feel as if things will be better by tomorrow others you will feel as if they will NEVER get better. I want you to think on some things that you need to make some manner of piece with.

1. This can take a lot of time months in fact. Older threads on here have people fighting this way for months some succeed some don't. Only you can know when you can't do it anymore.

2. Patience is the key word for you. This will take time it was 4 years to destroy a marriage it will take more than a week to restore it.

3. Expect him to be cautious about ending it with her. When it happens you will not get a lead up to it as he will not want to give you forewarning he will just do it and let you know. So all the way up to the ending you will be getting these mixed feelings.

4. If at anytime you want to stop let me know and we will begin working on you healing. Like I said I will give you advice to succeed on YOUR choice. If that choice changes then we will look at other avenues.

5. His time with the OW sleeping with her, watching TV, spending time with friends. All this you have to disengage from your mind and look at simply as if this. Your old marriage is dead if you start a new one the time that you really reconcile will mark that day. Both of you killed the old one that is just a fact. Now you are in the period of deciding if you want to start fresh with a person who you know FAR to well. You both now realize the other person can hurt you. You both now realize that you are capable of doing things you never would of thought possible. This is the reality of your NEW marriage IF you reconcile. So I would disengage from the idea of the fact that he is YOUR husband and start looking at it as he is a person who you love and want to spend time with and try to start something NEW with. After all you may find that once you get him back this affair kills it for YOU. Right now you are feeling like you did back 4 years ago take a step back a lot has happened to BOTH of you.

Now lets look at the top positives

1. He postponed the divorce.

2. He originally said he could not spend time with you but then changed it to he might be able to spend time with you.

3. He told you he loved you. Has he always said this or is it new?

4. He was open to spending a weekend with you totally, maybe just not this weekend. But originally you got a no now you are getting a maybe. Understand that he will hide his plans so that he does not feel as if he is giving in.

5. Every night he has sex with you is a night he is probably not having sex with her. After all even when your marriage was going good he was probably not a twice a day guy. 

6. The more time he spends with her it is better for you as he sees her as REALITY not a fantasy any more. They met at Renefair for crying out loud and tho I love those and go every year you can't get more fantasy relationship than that. Now he sees her with bed head, nasty breath, gotta pick up the groceries all this so you look at it as time that is against you and in reality it is 50/50. While his time with you is 100% good.

7. He is spending MORE time with you. And he is looking forward to spending time with you otherwise he would of said NO I will not spend the whole weekend with you. By the way if he does decide to spend it let me know.

8. In your post you leave out all the good that happened the sex, the watching tv and the fact that he said he may NOT go. Instead you are choosing to focus on the worst case scenario. It may happen that way but it may not don't pay interest on a loan you have not taken out. Either way this weekend will NOT make or break you. This is only ONE weekend that is all, you have many more until that date in August. So chin up on this.

9. Next time he comes over and is with you for a night ask him to put down the phone tell him you understand he is talking to her and it hurts you and to respect that. You don't have to be demanding just let him know how you feel remember this time together is not about hurting you this is about making GOOD times. You handled the previous conversation that it hurts you when he says he wants to be good to her very well you can handle this one as well. The main points are simple. Be honest that it hurts you. Ask him to stop that the time he is with you let that be time that he is with YOU.

10. You say he is unenthusiastic about leaving her. Well like I said even if he was enthusiastic about leaving her he probably would not say as that in his mind may make you revert to the way you were. In addition how do you think she felt when he postponed the divorce? That was a declaration of his need to TRY with you. If you think his statement is that he is unenthusiastic to leave her how would you feel if you were the OW and you found out that the man who was saying he was divorcing suddenly postponed the damn thing? Take about unenthusiastic LOL.

11. Right now this is a chance you are not in Reconciliation what is happening is he is seeing if you are true. Read this story http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...66377-i-have-30-days-make-work-separated.html She treated him badly for 10 years and this is their story of her changing and winning him back. And yes it does end happily. Now there is not a OW in this one but the principles are the same the only difference is that you have to have an A game because you have to contend with another women. This women gave it 30 days and it went down to the wire.

12. You are doing EVERYTHING you can there comes a point that you have to let go of his decision you are doing EVERYTHING right if he decides not to come back you will leave this marriage KNOWING you left no stone unturned. Take pride in that.

Now at this time many people have some self esteem issues so let me be frank with you. You deserve to be loved. You deserve to be cared about. You deserve to be number 1. You deserve not to be cheated on. You deserve someone that thinks the world of you. Now your current husband is auditioning for the part and you think he might have what it takes but if he does not I can GUARANTEE that there are a whole bunch of men who would love to be next to you. No matter what happens YOU will get through this and no matter what happens you WILL be happy again.


----------



## Affaircare

kimmycat said:


> Okay, after he said he appreciates how I am handling it. When he said, "We still don't know what is going to happen." He also said if she decides to end this, I don't know if I'm coming back". I added, "0r if YOU decide to end it?" And he said, "Or me" ( the or me was not very enthusiastic AT ALL!!!! I can't remember what other specifics, but, it did not make me feel that he intends to come back.


Kimmycat, I want you to begin to practice a little technique I suggest for people, and it feels like 100% against what you might normally do. Whenever he says something, before you say anything back, think to yourself "Agree with him." And then repeat back kind of what he said. It absolutely takes the wind out of their sails! 

For example, when he said he appreciates how you're handling it, and then said "We still don't know what is going to happen"...good chance right there! You could say "You're right! I'm not sure what I'm going to choose between you and I" and then smile.  He said "...if she decides to end this, I don't know if I'm coming back" you could say "Oh I agree completely. If she decided to end it I am not sure you would be invited back. Who can tell?" BIG SMILE and toss your hair a little. When he said "...OR ME (unenthusiastically)" you could say "right...or me either," with a little flirty shrug.

The idea with this technique is not to be all smarta$$ with him or make him think you're not interested, because you already spent 4 years ignoring him. But rather, this technique is meant to do a couple things: a) if you agree with him he can't really argue with you so it reduces arguments even when he tries to antagonize you and b) it somewhat plants the seed that he is not going to be able to have his cake and eat it too. It also kind of makes him hear back what he's saying to you and expecting you to accept...like it's crazy for him to expect you to be his wife but accept the fact he is living with his mistress!



> Before he told me about the trip, when we were on the patio (just after having sex, which made his reaction very difficult, also), I said that I hoped that he could the whole weekend and it said that that wasn't going to happen, he didn't even know if he could actually spend the night ( same thing he said last week). So, if I get to be with him at all, it will only be for Saturday night and hopefully, a movie during the afternoon Sat or Sun (Monster's University with our son). After that, he said he might be going out of town to get together with friends from Ren Faire's.


My thought here is to act as if you enjoy him, you like spending time with him, you invite him to share your life, you want him to share his...but you aren't some dog under his table that will accept scraps. For example, right now it looks like you will see him for a movie Sat. afternoon, and see him Sunday...I'd say make some plan for Saturday night and when he wants to stay, tell him, "Gee I'm sorry I would rather be with you but you said no so I made plans." Then either tell him that next weekend would be GREAT...or in front of him make a bit of a deal about breaking your plans "just for him" (whichever you think would be better for your situation). 

See it is REALLY a tightrope, because you don't want him to think he can waltz in and out of your life and you'll just wait around for him. But on the other hand you ignored him for so long that you want him to see IN ACTION that you value him and want to pay attention to him. So use some wisdom but don't act as if he can just string you along with scraps of affection. 



> Just a few but he keeps his phone right next to him and responds quickly. this is something he was doing when he was still living here and he had already told me about the OW. Something, he knows hurts me. But, I have never asked that he not do it, flat out matter of factly. He does know it hurts me though.


This is really easy. Just memorize this: "May I make a request? While you are here, I want to give you 100% of my attention and show you I am interested in being with you. And I would like to ask for the same in return. May I request that while you are here, you turn off your cell and put it here on the table by the back door and be 100% here with me? And then when you leave, you can pick it up on your way out and turn it back on?" If he is willing to do that--cool! :smthumbup: If he is not, ask him what he WOULD be willing to do to in order to be with you 100%. 



> I think he just expects me to be understanding again because of the OW. That is really, really hard and wierd. It must be how an OW feels and I do NOT like feeling that way.:lol: I truly do NOT know how I am surviving. Just the thought that my own H is with another woman is just overwhelmingly painful and feels like a nightmare.


It is a nightmare.  And it is unreasonable for him to come into your home, in your presence, be with you and even have sex with you...and expect you to "be understanding" about another woman. I would say it is reasonable for you to request that while he is there with you...he be there with you 100% and no less. If he tries to say out loud that he expects you to be understanding, I would suggest you tell him that while he is with you, you want 100% from him, and not just part here and part there. 



> WOW! You really thought it was a successful night! Thank you a million times for the encouragement and the perspective. I am learning a lot from you and the books I am reading at it really does help me get through this...


I agree with CEL I think you are doing brilliantly. Take a breath and keep going!


----------



## daisygirl 41

Kimmy,
Hi, my situation was a lot like yours. You are being given some good advice here.
Just a few suggestions:
1) Ask him not to txt her when he is with you. I did this. I just said 'would you mind leaving your phone in the car when you are with me as I don't appreciate you texting her when you are at my home'. He agreed.

2) Don't question his choices at this time. As Affaircare suggested, just smile and agree or don't even ask him what his plans are.

3) This is gonna hurt, but don't read to much into the sex thing. It's probably just sex at the moment and doesn't really have any bearing in the relationship status. I would suggest as hard as it is, you stop having sex with him, you don't want to be too available now and it is unacceptable that he his having sex with both of you. He's cake eating big time. He's boosting his ego!

4) Cut down in the relationship talks now and only bring it up if he does. Stop saying I love you first, only say it if he does.

5) Set some boundaries. He won't respect you or want you if he knows you are just sitting at home waiting for him. No man wants that. Get a life. Go out with your son. Go out with friends. Now and again tell him you are too busy to see him. Let HIM wonder what YOU are doing for a change. You really do need to start pulling back a bit. He has to miss you to want you and be a little afraid that he might lose you.

Hope this helps. H and I have been reconciling for 15 months. It's a long and painful road.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LetDownNTX

CEL said:


> I think her situation and yours differ on a few points but I would like your feedback if you agree or disagree as I do greatly respect your opinion.
> 
> 1. Her husband filled for divorce they actually completed the paper work and were very close to divorce as in weeks.
> 
> 2. He moved out to an apartment that was on his dollar the OW moved to be with him.
> 
> 3. As soon as she showed signs of wanting to reconnect with him he stopped the divorce.
> 
> 4. Before the was willing to divorce for 4 years he was very committed and tried to get into MC, date night, etc all the things you would do to rekindle the romantic feelings.
> 
> Your husband just seems like a different animal altogether with his multi-year affair and unwillingness to work on the relationship. Did you husband before his affair ever express a strong desire to make the marriage better? Did he ever file for divorce? Was there a sense of his emotional needs not being met? I feel your husband fits more into the cake eating cheater mentality "no offence" where he wanted to have you both and was great with that. There by your using the 180 was a declaration that he had to choose or you would for him. In this case you have what was basically a bad marriage for 4 years that is the root problem the husband however was beaten down by the lack of what he felt was love and would not move on until he felt he was worth something. Once he had this women and I really feel any women would of done just something to restore his self confidence enough he decided to file. His only reason for stopping was the changes he witnessed in his wife.
> 
> So we keep coming around to going dark and doing the 180. I don't feel this would be a good idea for the above reasons. This husband is okay with moving on I think he wants to stay with her but is leery that the recent changes will not hold. If she starts distancing from him he will rightly think she has reverted well he was willing to divorce her when she was that way so why would he not be willing to now. Again the root problem is not that he wanted things on the side he sounds as if for years he was trying to work on the marriage until finally he could not anymore. I would like to know what your thoughts are on this LetDown.


I totally agree with what you are saying. They are different in many ways but I think the feelings of having the person you love with someone else still hurts the same no matter what the circumstances. Alot of the feelings she is experiencing I remember feeling and those are the things I can relate to. 

Not to be cold here but the fact that she shut her husband out for 4 years and only wanted to fix things after she realized where this was really going to me is kinda sad. She has her work cut out for her and rightly so. Sometimes we dont know what we have til its gone, right?


----------



## LetDownNTX

daisygirl 41 said:


> 5) Set some boundaries. He won't respect you or want you if he knows you are just sitting at home waiting for him. No man wants that. Get a life. Go out with your son. Go out with friends. Now and again tell him you are too busy to see him. Let HIM wonder what YOU are doing for a change. You really do need to start pulling back a bit. He has to miss you to want you and be a little afraid that he might lose you.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is exactly what I was trying to say in an earlier post. Make plans and dont always be available. It makes you more attractive and you will notice a change in him if he thinks you are not available to him at his beck and call.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Honestly it was successful but that does not mean it is not a shyte situation. If it was not killing you well then you would not be in love with him. That is the bad part of this situation one thing that you will have to do is accept that this is a roller coaster ride you will have ups and downs some days you will feel as if things will be better by tomorrow others you will feel as if they will NEVER get better. I want you to think on some things that you need to make some manner of piece with.
> 
> 1. This can take a lot of time months in fact. Older threads on here have people fighting this way for months some succeed some don't. Only you can know when you can't do it anymore.
> 
> 2. Patience is the key word for you. This will take time it was 4 years to destroy a marriage it will take more than a week to restore it.
> 
> 3. Expect him to be cautious about ending it with her. When it happens you will not get a lead up to it as he will not want to give you forewarning he will just do it and let you know. So all the way up to the ending you will be getting these mixed feelings.
> 
> 4. If at anytime you want to stop let me know and we will begin working on you healing. Like I said I will give you advice to succeed on YOUR choice. If that choice changes then we will look at other avenues.
> 
> 5. His time with the OW sleeping with her, watching TV, spending time with friends. All this you have to disengage from your mind and look at simply as if this. Your old marriage is dead if you start a new one the time that you really reconcile will mark that day. Both of you killed the old one that is just a fact. Now you are in the period of deciding if you want to start fresh with a person who you know FAR to well. You both now realize the other person can hurt you. You both now realize that you are capable of doing things you never would of thought possible. This is the reality of your NEW marriage IF you reconcile. So I would disengage from the idea of the fact that he is YOUR husband and start looking at it as he is a person who you love and want to spend time with and try to start something NEW with. After all you may find that once you get him back this affair kills it for YOU. Right now you are feeling like you did back 4 years ago take a step back a lot has happened to BOTH of you.
> 
> Now lets look at the top positives
> 
> 1. He postponed the divorce.
> 
> 2. He originally said he could not spend time with you but then changed it to he might be able to spend time with you.
> 
> 3. He told you he loved you. Has he always said this or is it new?
> 
> 4. He was open to spending a weekend with you totally, maybe just not this weekend. But originally you got a no now you are getting a maybe. Understand that he will hide his plans so that he does not feel as if he is giving in.
> 
> 5. Every night he has sex with you is a night he is probably not having sex with her. After all even when your marriage was going good he was probably not a twice a day guy.
> 
> 6. The more time he spends with her it is better for you as he sees her as REALITY not a fantasy any more. They met at Renefair for crying out loud and tho I love those and go every year you can't get more fantasy relationship than that. Now he sees her with bed head, nasty breath, gotta pick up the groceries all this so you look at it as time that is against you and in reality it is 50/50. While his time with you is 100% good.
> 
> 7. He is spending MORE time with you. And he is looking forward to spending time with you otherwise he would of said NO I will not spend the whole weekend with you. By the way if he does decide to spend it let me know.
> 
> 8. In your post you leave out all the good that happened the sex, the watching tv and the fact that he said he may NOT go. Instead you are choosing to focus on the worst case scenario. It may happen that way but it may not don't pay interest on a loan you have not taken out. Either way this weekend will NOT make or break you. This is only ONE weekend that is all, you have many more until that date in August. So chin up on this.
> 
> 9. Next time he comes over and is with you for a night ask him to put down the phone tell him you understand he is talking to her and it hurts you and to respect that. You don't have to be demanding just let him know how you feel remember this time together is not about hurting you this is about making GOOD times. You handled the previous conversation that it hurts you when he says he wants to be good to her very well you can handle this one as well. The main points are simple. Be honest that it hurts you. Ask him to stop that the time he is with you let that be time that he is with YOU.
> 
> 10. You say he is unenthusiastic about leaving her. Well like I said even if he was enthusiastic about leaving her he probably would not say as that in his mind may make you revert to the way you were. In addition how do you think she felt when he postponed the divorce? That was a declaration of his need to TRY with you. If you think his statement is that he is unenthusiastic to leave her how would you feel if you were the OW and you found out that the man who was saying he was divorcing suddenly postponed the damn thing? Take about unenthusiastic LOL.
> 
> 11. Right now this is a chance you are not in Reconciliation what is happening is he is seeing if you are true. Read this story http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...66377-i-have-30-days-make-work-separated.html She treated him badly for 10 years and this is their story of her changing and winning him back. And yes it does end happily. Now there is not a OW in this one but the principles are the same the only difference is that you have to have an A game because you have to contend with another women. This women gave it 30 days and it went down to the wire.
> 
> 12. You are doing EVERYTHING you can there comes a point that you have to let go of his decision you are doing EVERYTHING right if he decides not to come back you will leave this marriage KNOWING you left no stone unturned. Take pride in that.
> 
> Now at this time many people have some self esteem issues so let me be frank with you. You deserve to be loved. You deserve to be cared about. You deserve to be number 1. You deserve not to be cheated on. You deserve someone that thinks the world of you. Now your current husband is auditioning for the part and you think he might have what it takes but if he does not I can GUARANTEE that there are a whole bunch of men who would love to be next to you. No matter what happens YOU will get through this and no matter what happens you WILL be happy again.



Thank you, CEL. I need to be patient and try to keep my head up and keep hope alive. He has always said I love you,too, but, is now starting to say I love you first. I can't even think about giving up right now but, I know that In 6 mos. or so I will have to move on if we have not begun the long work of rebuilding our marriage. Thank you soooo much for all the advice and recommending the books. I am now finished with both and I even went over to marriagebuilders.com and looked around. Dr. Haley has a really good video of him speaking about infidelity. Gonna spend some more time over there. Definitely going to order the workbook if H comes home. Still don't don't know if he is going out of town this weekend. I will let you know. Gonna try to think of some fun stuff to do with my son in case he does go out of town...


----------



## kimmycat

Affaircare said:


> Kimmycat, I want you to begin to practice a little technique I suggest for people, and it feels like 100% against what you might normally do. Whenever he says something, before you say anything back, think to yourself "Agree with him." And then repeat back kind of what he said. It absolutely takes the wind out of their sails!
> 
> For example, when he said he appreciates how you're handling it, and then said "We still don't know what is going to happen"...good chance right there! You could say "You're right! I'm not sure what I'm going to choose between you and I" and then smile.  He said "...if she decides to end this, I don't know if I'm coming back" you could say "Oh I agree completely. If she decided to end it I am not sure you would be invited back. Who can tell?" BIG SMILE and toss your hair a little. When he said "...OR ME (unenthusiastically)" you could say "right...or me either," with a little flirty shrug.
> 
> The idea with this technique is not to be all smarta$$ with him or make him think you're not interested, because you already spent 4 years ignoring him. But rather, this technique is meant to do a couple things: a) if you agree with him he can't really argue with you so it reduces arguments even when he tries to antagonize you and b) it somewhat plants the seed that he is not going to be able to have his cake and eat it too. It also kind of makes him hear back what he's saying to you and expecting you to accept...like it's crazy for him to expect you to be his wife but accept the fact he is living with his mistress!
> 
> 
> My thought here is to act as if you enjoy him, you like spending time with him, you invite him to share your life, you want him to share his...but you aren't some dog under his table that will accept scraps. For example, right now it looks like you will see him for a movie Sat. afternoon, and see him Sunday...I'd say make some plan for Saturday night and when he wants to stay, tell him, "Gee I'm sorry I would rather be with you but you said no so I made plans." Then either tell him that next weekend would be GREAT...or in front of him make a bit of a deal about breaking your plans "just for him" (whichever you think would be better for your situation).
> 
> See it is REALLY a tightrope, because you don't want him to think he can waltz in and out of your life and you'll just wait around for him. But on the other hand you ignored him for so long that you want him to see IN ACTION that you value him and want to pay attention to him. So use some wisdom but don't act as if he can just string you along with scraps of affection.
> 
> 
> This is really easy. Just memorize this: "May I make a request? While you are here, I want to give you 100% of my attention and show you I am interested in being with you. And I would like to ask for the same in return. May I request that while you are here, you turn off your cell and put it here on the table by the back door and be 100% here with me? And then when you leave, you can pick it up on your way out and turn it back on?" If he is willing to do that--cool! :smthumbup: If he is not, ask him what he WOULD be willing to do to in order to be with you 100%.
> 
> 
> It is a nightmare.  And it is unreasonable for him to come into your home, in your presence, be with you and even have sex with you...and expect you to "be understanding" about another woman. I would say it is reasonable for you to request that while he is there with you...he be there with you 100% and no less. If he tries to say out loud that he expects you to be understanding, I would suggest you tell him that while he is with you, you want 100% from him, and not just part here and part there.
> 
> 
> I agree with CEL I think you are doing brilliantly. Take a breath and keep going!



Thank you for your advice! I sooo appreciate you coming and helping with my situation with so much detail.

I am going to try to do the agreeing in that way and see if it helps.

I am also going to talk to him about the texting. You see, he has the OW thinking that he comes over here strictly to be with his son because we have agreed that he is not to meet her. She expects him to be in constant contact with her. He is being pulled from both sides and has said that on numerous occasions. I will tell him that it hurts me and i would like to be 100% focused on him when we are together and i would like him 100% focused on us during this time, too. I will see if he can be considerate enough to leave the phone somewhere where we don't have to see it lighting up every few minutes and he responding right away.

He has not told her that HE postponed the divorce. He told me that he didn't want her to find out that he postponed the divorce. I believe he told her that the courts did it. He said he was going to have to tell her that way. He said all this a week ago after he told me that he was going to postpone it. 

I will keep up the working on myself and start planning things without him so it doesn't look like I am waiting around for him. He said he will let me know this morning if he is going out of town this weekend.

Thank you, again!


----------



## kimmycat

daisygirl 41 said:


> Kimmy,
> Hi, my situation was a lot like yours. You are being given some good advice here.
> Just a few suggestions:
> 1) Ask him not to txt her when he is with you. I did this. I just said 'would you mind leaving your phone in the car when you are with me as I don't appreciate you texting her when you are at my home'. He agreed.
> 
> 2) Don't question his choices at this time. As Affaircare suggested, just smile and agree or don't even ask him what his plans are.
> 
> 3) This is gonna hurt, but don't read to much into the sex thing. It's probably just sex at the moment and doesn't really have any bearing in the relationship status. I would suggest as hard as it is, you stop having sex with him, you don't want to be too available now and it is unacceptable that he his having sex with both of you. He's cake eating big time. He's boosting his ego!
> 
> 4) Cut down in the relationship talks now and only bring it up if he does. Stop saying I love you first, only say it if he does.
> 
> 5) Set some boundaries. He won't respect you or want you if he knows you are just sitting at home waiting for him. No man wants that. Get a life. Go out with your son. Go out with friends. Now and again tell him you are too busy to see him. Let HIM wonder what YOU are doing for a change. You really do need to start pulling back a bit. He has to miss you to want you and be a little afraid that he might lose you.
> 
> Hope this helps. H and I have been reconciling for 15 months. It's a long and painful road.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for your advice. Let me respond to each point:

1. I will try this. It would really help me be happier when he is here with us.

2. Good advice. I need to just agree with him and be patient.

3. Due to our specific circumstances, I know I need to continue to have sex with him but, I agree that I can't let it make me think that it means that we are back together. I think that is where I am really having the trouble. It is so against the regular sexual relationship that It feels wierd that we have sex and it can't mean we are reconciling. It is just part of me showing him that I love him and want him back and want to fulfill that need that I did not fulfill for 4 years. I am really enjoying it, too, after so long. I really feel like we are connecting in that way and I know what you are saying but, I don't think it applies to us.

4. Yes, I have stopped all relationship talk unless he brings it up. I just accidentally had the conversation lead to that yesterday when he was talking about taking his OW on his weekend to see friends. Unfortunately, I found out that these are mutual friends.

5. Yes, I know this will be helpful. My bests friend flew in to visit me the first week he had moved out (this is week 3) and he called 3 times a day! After she left, it was only once a day and this week, it is still once a day, but I think he skipped yesterday. We only communicated through texts and he came over for dinner.

Thank you. All opinions help, especially from people that have had this experience. I am so glad you are reconciled and wish you the best.


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## kimmycat

LetDownNTX said:


> I totally agree with what you are saying. They are different in many ways but I think the feelings of having the person you love with someone else still hurts the same no matter what the circumstances. Alot of the feelings she is experiencing I remember feeling and those are the things I can relate to.
> 
> Not to be cold here but the fact that she shut her husband out for 4 years and only wanted to fix things after she realized where this was really going to me is kinda sad. She has her work cut out for her and rightly so. Sometimes we dont know what we have til its gone, right?




Yes, the feelings about the person you love being with someone else are the same. It is sooooooo painful.

I agree about the 4 years stuff. It is extremely sad that it took a catastrophe such as this to break me out of my emotional stronghold. I sincerely wish I had had the foresight to go to counseling 4 years ago and get help before it was too late. I have to let go of that wish because I cannot change the past. I can only learn from my mistakes and work on myself now and have hope that it is not too late.


----------



## kimmycat

LetDownNTX said:


> This is exactly what I was trying to say in an earlier post. Make plans and dont always be available. It makes you more attractive and you will notice a change in him if he thinks you are not available to him at his beck and call.



Yes, I have to motivate myself to do things. I need to start going out. The thing is that we have really never left our son with a babysitter. 

When he was a baby and up until 18 months old, we had a live in Nanny for the weekdays only and we would go out on a date every Thursday night. Then, when he was 18 months old, we let her go because our son did not like her. We asked him if he wanted to go to school or stay home with her and he chose school (daycare). So, we knew that he really didn't like staying with her and it would be good to have him around other kids, so we let her go.

We would have my mom take care of him sometimes but she would call us 15 times when we were out and one time, when he was 4 and she was with him for the weekend and we were at a Ren Faire for the weekend, she called so many times that we couldn't enjoy ourselves at all. She even told us, "You can't go out of town anymore, this is too hard for me to have him crying for you both all weekend." I still leave him with her on occasion but, not for overnight. So, my mom is no help. 

This week, his best friend and his mom are coming over so I can go to have my first appt with my counselor. But, they live 30 minutes away so it is not feasible to take him over to their house or her come over at night so I can go out.

Now, that he is older i need to find a responsible teenager that can babysit when I need to go out AND IF WE RECONCILE, we can have weekly date nights.

Both my husband and I are somewhat helicopter parents and have really not wanted to leave him with anyone very often. I think this is a big reason that we started having independent recreational lives. We trusted the other parent with our son and no one else.

So, gotta work on this huge issue so I can have free time with or without the H.


----------



## CEL

This is all great advice I bow before your terrific ness Daisy, Letdown and of course the wicked smart Affaicare.

Kimmy you are doing great no bs you are taking all this advice and filtering it and making it relevant to your situation that is really really important. Some people get crazy and just do whatever in a panic you are keeping your head and making good strategic thinking. So great job. I think 6 months is a great target and it is the recommended on just set a date and in that date you will reevaluate.

Yeah the MB site is awesome they have a lot if good stuff. There forum is goofy tho so I would not recommend it. They get kinda cultish. I would pick up the book if you have not already Surviving an Affair you are going to find a lot if what we are saying in it.

So since you read the what is your guess of his top 5 emotional needs? What are yours? What is your top love buster behavior and what is his? Also Affaircare has her OWN set called love kindlers and love extinguishers that I actually really like.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> This is all great advice I bow before your terrific ness Daisy, Letdown and of course the wicked smart Affaicare.
> 
> Kimmy you are doing great no bs you are taking all this advice and filtering it and making it relevant to your situation that is really really important. Some people get crazy and just do whatever in a panic you are keeping your head and making good strategic thinking. So great job. I think 6 months is a great target and it is the recommended on just set a date and in that date you will reevaluate.
> 
> Yeah the MB site is awesome they have a lot if good stuff. There forum is goofy tho so I would not recommend it. They get kinda cultish. I would pick up the book if you have not already Surviving an Affair you are going to find a lot if what we are saying in it.
> 
> So since you read the what is your guess of his top 5 emotional needs? What are yours? What is your top love buster behavior and what is his? Also Affaircare has her OWN set called love kindlers and love extinguishers that I actually really like.


Thank you, CEL. I appreciate your support so much.

I am happy to report that he did NOT go out of town and we are going to the movies tomorrown and then, he is coming home with us and is gonna spend the night. I asked again if he could be here Friday night, too but, he said no and that he would call at around noon cuz he had things he had to do in the morning.

So, I am going reread the letter I wrote to him tonight and make sure it is still what I need to say and give it to him tomorrow night.

As far as his emotional needs and mine. I'm not sure. I haven't done the questionnaire but I have tried ranking mine and what I think might be his...definitely will get the workbook if we R.

I think his top 5, in order of importance are:
Sexual fulfillment, Admiration, Recreational Companionship, Affection, Physical Attractiveness of Spouse

I think my top 5 are (very hard to rank these):
Intimate Conversatm, Affection, Recreational Companioship, Family Commitment, Fianncial Support


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Thank you, CEL. I appreciate your support so much.
> 
> I am happy to report that he did NOT go out of town and we are going to the movies tomorrown and then, he is coming home with us and is gonna spend the night. I asked again if he could be here Friday night, too but, he said no and that he would call at around noon cuz he had things he had to do in the morning.
> 
> So, I am going reread the letter I wrote to him tonight and make sure it is still what I need to say and give it to him tomorrow night.
> 
> As far as his emotional needs and mine. I'm not sure. I haven't done the questionnaire but I have tried ranking mine and what I think might be his...definitely will get the workbook if we R.
> 
> I think his top 5, in order of importance are:
> Sexual fulfillment, Admiration, Recreational Companionship, Affection, Physical Attractiveness of Spouse
> 
> I think my top 5 are (very hard to rank these):
> Intimate Conversatm, Affection, Recreational Companioship, Family Commitment, Fianncial Support



I am so happy for you that is great news so he blew off the Rene Fair to spend time with you and the little one. And despite your pessimistic prediction you will get him for pretty much the whole day. Also he did not say that next weekend he would not be able to stay with you. Again you are making good progress and things are coming along nicely. You might over the weekend suggest going fireworks shopping with the little one if he is going to be there for the 4th if he is not you should still plan something with the little one. I think you have all you need right now just stay the course also give some thought to those emotional needs and love busters especially look at your own behavior, if you notice you match up on emotional needs on two of those in the top 4. 

Looking at those like that it is easy to see the break down tho his are very activity together oriented you HAVE to be there for him to get these met. Two of yours follow the good provider type and can be met by him being away from you. Hmmmm I would keep these in mind and the fact that moving forward things you do WITH him are going to be the most impactfull sounds pretty basic but I have seen others do things away from their spouse like buying flowers or cleaning a house that have meant a great deal to them and met those basic needs. His are all centered on you talking and spending time with him it makes it even more clear that the direction of slowly encouraging him to spend time with you "date night, weekends, etc" and to get him to stop the texting are the right ways to go with this. Remember when you are with him no love busting or love extinguishers and please HAVE FUN. This is about you as well have some fun and some good times relax no matter what like I said this weekend will not make or break you it will either be a another foundation stone or it will not be. You will not of lost anything.

Good Luck my hopes are with you and ALWAYS remember YOU ARE GREAT!!!:smthumbup:


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> I am so happy for you that is great news so he blew off the Rene Fair to spend time with you and the little one. And despite your pessimistic prediction you will get him for pretty much the whole day. Also he did not say that next weekend he would not be able to stay with you. Again you are making good progress and things are coming along nicely. You might over the weekend suggest going fireworks shopping with the little one if he is going to be there for the 4th if he is not you should still plan something with the little one. I think you have all you need right now just stay the course also give some thought to those emotional needs and love busters especially look at your own behavior, if you notice you match up on emotional needs on two of those in the top 4.
> 
> Looking at those like that it is easy to see the break down tho his are very activity together oriented you HAVE to be there for him to get these met. Two of yours follow the good provider type and can be met by him being away from you. Hmmmm I would keep these in mind and the fact that moving forward things you do WITH him are going to be the most impactfull sounds pretty basic but I have seen others do things away from their spouse like buying flowers or cleaning a house that have meant a great deal to them and met those basic needs. His are all centered on you talking and spending time with him it makes it even more clear that the direction of slowly encouraging him to spend time with you "date night, weekends, etc" and to get him to stop the texting are the right ways to go with this. Remember when you are with him no love busting or love extinguishers and please HAVE FUN. This is about you as well have some fun and some good times relax no matter what like I said this weekend will not make or break you it will either be a another foundation stone or it will not be. You will not of lost anything.
> 
> Good Luck my hopes are with you and ALWAYS remember YOU ARE GREAT!!!:smthumbup:


Thank you, CEL! I am going to concentrate on fulfilling his needs when we are together and having fun! Hopefully, he will not text after I let him know that it is hurtful. One stone at a time! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Hortensia

Wow, CEL, you gave GREAT advice ! It's the first time I read this kind of advice here, usually everybody says "do 180", distance yourself, etc. It's just refreshing to see someone giving advice toward what the OP wants.

I root for you too, kimmy. Nevertheless, although I agree that you should show repentance and do the heavy lifting, he sounds like the ultimate cake eater to me, having sex with both at the same time.

The right thing for him to do, once he agreed to give you a last chance, was to ask the OW to go back to her city for a while. Not technically split yet, but putting the relationship on hold for a while.
That's what I would have done. 

As for the Ow, somehow I feel sorry for her. She showed her love by leaving everything to be with him. On the contrast, what did you do to show him love? Ignoring him for the last 4 years. Some may differ to say that she deserves him more. I just hope you do really love him, and don't just want him back only because he has somebody else.

Again, I root for you. But remember that you both have to forgive and forget. He has to forgive you for the cold treatment, and you have to forgive the affair. Hopefully you both come out of this having learnt something.


----------



## kimmycat

Hortensia said:


> Wow, CEL, you gave GREAT advice ! It's the first time I read this kind of advice here, usually everybody says "do 180", distance yourself, etc. It's just refreshing to see someone giving advice toward what the OP wants.
> 
> I root for you too, kimmy. Nevertheless, although I agree that you should show repentance and do the heavy lifting, he sounds like the ultimate cake eater to me, having sex with both at the same time.
> 
> The right thing for him to do, once he agreed to give you a last chance, was to ask the OW to go back to her city for a while. Not technically split yet, but putting the relationship on hold for a while.
> That's what I would have done.
> 
> As for the Ow, somehow I feel sorry for her. She showed her love by leaving everything to be with him. On the contrast, what did you do to show him love? Ignoring him for the last 4 years. Some may differ to say that she deserves him more. I just hope you do really love him, and don't just want him back only because he has somebody else.
> 
> Again, I root for you. But remember that you both have to forgive and forget. He has to forgive you for the cold treatment, and you have to forgive the affair. Hopefully you both come out of this having learnt something.


Actually, he has not agreed to give me another chance. He has made no decisions like that.

Yeah, telling the OW to check back later might be a good idea for him, but I don't think that would give us a genuine chance to reconcile.

I still do not know what is going to happen. I know what I have done and I know that IF we get another chance, there is A LOT of work to be done.

I can only take it day by day.


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## kimmycat

Update:
Saturday night went pretty well. He did not get here until around 7:30 so we did not get to spend the afternoon together like we had planned. The night was nice, telling stories on the patio. It was pretty nice. He told me that his friends are being very supportive and have said they support him whatever he chooses, as are mine. He kept saying that he will hurt the OW very badly if he decides to end it. He also said that if he ends it, it doesn't mean he will come back right away. He is still feeling like he will be desperate if our marriage goes back to the way it was. I told him that I am reading books and will start therapy this Wednesday and he is happy about that. I told him a little about His Needs Her Needs.

As for romance, my son was being very needy and woke up twice during the night just as things started to heat up. The second time, our son was crying uncontrollably for quite a long time. I think it is finally hitting him. 

On Sunday, he stayed until around 2:30, saying he needed to get ready for work tomorrow. I made breakfast and we had a nice time hanging out and talking. I had told him the night before that I had a letter for him but, he didn't want to read it. He wanted to know what it was about and I just told him that he took me several days to write and it was about my feelings. So, on Sunday, I asked him if he was ready to read it and he said yes. So, he read it in front of me and seemed to like it and thanked me for writing it. He explained that he still doesn't know what to do.

Yesterday, Monday, I had my annual skin check (had skin cancer in 2006) and I had told him. He texted me in the morning to tell me he hoped all went well.

After the appt, my son and I went to a nearby shrine that has a lot of meaning for my H and I. I told him I was going to say prayers for his health (for his medical test today), our family and our love. He said he would pray, too, when we were there. It was very comforting to go there and say some prayers and light some candles. I spent over an hour there. I am not a very religious person, and neither is my H, but, we were both raised Catholic and still believe in the power of prayer.

We texted off and on throughout the day and he called last night. He is coming over today for dinner and to go fireworks shopping. He has plans to go over and light fireworks on the 4th of July. Since he has left his BBQ pit here, I asked him if he could BBQ and he didn't sound very enthusiastic. He loves to cook, especially BBQ, but, says he hasn't been cooking at all. He just doesn't feel like it.

I started reading THe Divorce Remedy by Michele Werner Davis and am liking it so far.

I go between being hopeful to feeling like has moved on but, trying to remember that he did postpone the divorce when it could have been final 6/24 and trying to believe that there is still lots of hope. 

Have my first counseling appointment tomorrow at 2:00. She is a family counselor and and IC so I hope I like her. There are so few counselors around where I live.


----------



## CEL

You sound down so let me give you some good cheer. You are a beautiful women. You have a generous heart. You love your son. You are a good mother. You are fighting for your marriage. You are fighting for the man you love. You have owned up to your mistakes and are making the changes necessary. Now the one thing I will guarantee is that you will not be in this situation for a long time at max it will only be a few months. 

So I am going to take this apart and ask some questions because I see some things we can use to your advantage here. 




kimmycat said:


> Update:
> Saturday night went pretty well. He did not get here until around 7:30 so we did not get to spend the afternoon together like we had planned. The night was nice, telling stories on the patio. It was pretty nice. He told me that his friends are being very supportive and have said they support him whatever he chooses, as are mine. He kept saying that he will hurt the OW very badly if he decides to end it. He also said that if he ends it, it doesn't mean he will come back right away. He is still feeling like he will be desperate if our marriage goes back to the way it was. I told him that I am reading books and will start therapy this Wednesday and he is happy about that. I told him a little about His Needs Her Needs.


I wish the friends where a little more pro marriage but hey we deal with the hand we are dealt at least they are not against you. How did the conversation with the OW come up and what was your response to this he seems to bring this up a lot and I am thinking this is something we can use. The rest about him not coming back right away is just bull don't take it in this is a man who would not leave you unless he had a women to go to. He needs a women in his life he may hold out a few weeks but not very long. A little more details on this conversation would be helpful tho



kimmycat said:


> As for romance, my son was being very needy and woke up twice during the night just as things started to heat up. The second time, our son was crying uncontrollably for quite a long time. I think it is finally hitting him.


I am sorry for your son but this is actually good for your plan to get your husband back the consequences of his actions are starting to show. We will be tackling this more soon. 



kimmycat said:


> On Sunday, he stayed until around 2:30, saying he needed to get ready for work tomorrow. I made breakfast and we had a nice time hanging out and talking. I had told him the night before that I had a letter for him but, he didn't want to read it. He wanted to know what it was about and I just told him that he took me several days to write and it was about my feelings. So, on Sunday, I asked him if he was ready to read it and he said yes. So, he read it in front of me and seemed to like it and thanked me for writing it. He explained that he still doesn't know what to do.


This is very good the letter is like a putting a dynamite in water the reaction you get may not be spectacular but the impact in the water is massive.



kimmycat said:


> Yesterday, Monday, I had my annual skin check (had skin cancer in 2006) and I had told him. He texted me in the morning to tell me he hoped all went well.


This is good it shows he is still acting in the capacity of husband. Incidentally did you talk to him about his texting of the OW while at your house?



kimmycat said:


> After the appt, my son and I went to a nearby shrine that has a lot of meaning for my H and I. I told him I was going to say prayers for his health (for his medical test today), our family and our love. He said he would pray, too, when we were there. It was very comforting to go there and say some prayers and light some candles. I spent over an hour there. I am not a very religious person, and neither is my H, but, we were both raised Catholic and still believe in the power of prayer.


You need to take good care of yourself and that means you need the power of faith. You are fighting for you marriage, something that every religion finds holy. You are fighting for the man you love. I don't know anything more holy than that. Feel good about what you are doing, hold you head high.



kimmycat said:


> We texted off and on throughout the day and he called last night. He is coming over today for dinner and to go fireworks shopping. He has plans to go over and light fireworks on the 4th of July. Since he has left his BBQ pit here, I asked him if he could BBQ and he didn't sound very enthusiastic. He loves to cook, especially BBQ, but, says he hasn't been cooking at all. He just doesn't feel like it.


First this shows that he still wants to be with you. That he still loves you. He is keeping in contact with you and wants to communicate with you. Is he coming over to light fireworks with you and the son? Staying the night maybe? The cooking thing is a sign that no matter what he may be projecting he is having a hard time with all this. He knows he has gotten himself in a pickle and does not know how to get out of it. If the OW was not in their this would be cut and dry unfortunately that is just not the way and he knows that to do what he would like which is to come back and work on it with you would cause a lot of pain we are going to use this to our advantage.



kimmycat said:


> I started reading THe Divorce Remedy by Michele Werner Davis and am liking it so far.
> 
> I go between being hopeful to feeling like has moved on but, trying to remember that he did postpone the divorce when it could have been final 6/24 and trying to believe that there is still lots of hope.


This is natural you are going to go up and down I can tell you that you are doing everything you can do and that no matter what you will walk away with not only your self respect but the moral high ground. I can also tell you that your current plan is the best to help you heal. What you are doing is going to drain your love bank for him by the end of it you will feel okay to move on without any residual romantic feelings. All you need to do is exactly what you are doing.



kimmycat said:


> Have my first counseling appointment tomorrow at 2:00. She is a family counselor and and IC so I hope I like her. There are so few counselors around where I live.


Give them a try the meaningful thing is that you are TRYING keep that in mind.

So lets go over some stuff. Have you talked to him about this weekend as far as coming over? If he is going to be there for the 4th why not stay a few days? Or does he have plans to go out of town?


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> 1. You sound down so let me give you some good cheer. You are a beautiful women. You have a generous heart. You love your son. You are a good mother. You are fighting for your marriage. You are fighting for the man you love. You have owned up to your mistakes and are making the changes necessary. Now the one thing I will guarantee is that you will not be in this situation for a long time at max it will only be a few months.
> 
> So I am going to take this apart and ask some questions because I see some things we can use to your advantage here.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2. I wish the friends where a little more pro marriage but hey we deal with the hand we are dealt at least they are not against you. How did the conversation with the OW come up and what was your response to this he seems to bring this up a lot and I am thinking this is something we can use. The rest about him not coming back right away is just bull don't take it in this is a man who would not leave you unless he had a women to go to. He needs a women in his life he may hold out a few weeks but not very long. A little more details on this conversation would be helpful tho
> 
> 
> 
> 3. I am sorry for your son but this is actually good for your plan to get your husband back the consequences of his actions are starting to show. We will be tackling this more soon.
> 
> 
> 
> 4. This is very good the letter is like a putting a dynamite in water the reaction you get may not be spectacular but the impact in the water is massive.
> 
> 
> 
> 5. This is good it shows he is still acting in the capacity of husband. Incidentally did you talk to him about his texting of the OW while at your house?
> 
> 
> 
> 6. You need to take good care of yourself and that means you need the power of faith. You are fighting for you marriage, something that every religion finds holy. You are fighting for the man you love. I don't know anything more holy than that. Feel good about what you are doing, hold you head high.
> 
> 
> 
> 7. First this shows that he still wants to be with you. That he still loves you. He is keeping in contact with you and wants to communicate with you. Is he coming over to light fireworks with you and the son? Staying the night maybe? The cooking thing is a sign that no matter what he may be projecting he is having a hard time with all this. He knows he has gotten himself in a pickle and does not know how to get out of it. If the OW was not in their this would be cut and dry unfortunately that is just not the way and he knows that to do what he would like which is to come back and work on it with you would cause a lot of pain we are going to use this to our advantage.
> 
> 
> 
> 8. This is natural you are going to go up and down I can tell you that you are doing everything you can do and that no matter what you will walk away with not only your self respect but the moral high ground. I can also tell you that your current plan is the best to help you heal. What you are doing is going to drain your love bank for him by the end of it you will feel okay to move on without any residual romantic feelings. All you need to do is exactly what you are doing.
> 
> 
> 
> 9. Give them a try the meaningful thing is that you are TRYING keep that in mind.
> 
> 10. So lets go over some stuff. Have you talked to him about this weekend as far as coming over? If he is going to be there for the 4th why not stay a few days? Or does he have plans to go out of town?



Thank you, as always, I feel better after reading your post!!!!! I also feel better after a long good visit with H! We had dinner, take out from a favorite place, I was invited to shop for fireworks (which I never am) AND when we came back we watched several hilarious episodes of Big Bang Theory and laughed and laughed. He kept saying he needed to go and I asked if we could watch 1 more and he said yes 3 times! He hugged me when he was leaving and said I love you first!!!!! I hugged him and whispered i his ear that this is such a big nightmare and to please make it end and he said yes, I know!!!! That was a bit of a breakdown but, it was so from the heart and he said yes, I know! I am feeling good with that underlying very bad, ya know?

I broke down your posts by numbering your paragraphs so that I could answer each one without leaving anything out.

1. Thank you so much for saying all this and it really means a lot that you would help someone you don't even know. I feel like I am in therapy and getting very good advice. I hope you know how much I appreciate all this help!!!!!!!!!

2. More details about this conversation about OW? She can up because he said that she has 2 dogs and he hates them. He is very neat and he says that their hairs are everywhere and the place is impossible to keep clean. He is very clean and can't stand this. We have a cleaning lady once a week and he does not and even here, he would sweep and clean up a lot. (Our cleaning lady also does all the wash and ironing! He lamented missing that, as well.). He also told a story about how one day, she made stuffed cabbage and stunk up the whole condo. He said it grossed him out. Then, he started talking about what his friends were saying and then we started talking about his pickle and he was kinda asking me what I thought henshould do and I told him that I was bias and really couldn't help him with that. I wish I had said that it is very honorable to tell her that you want to go back home and save your marriage and be with hour family but, I didn't. (He always acts like this is not an affair and that he just rushed into a new relationship. He has NEVER ever made it seem like he did anything wrong at all here.) He said something like that she was taking a risk and that she wouldn't die but would be very hurt. He also said that when he told one his friends that she had "proven herself by leaving everything for him" they responded that she may have some dependency issues. He said that he kinda is starting to see it that way, too. I think I also said that it was too painful for me to tell him how to break up with someone without hurting them when I am his wife and am very hurt, but in a very calm, honest way.

3. Yes, I could tell it was very painful for him to see his son so out of control and crying every time he woke up during the night. Our poor baby!

4. Yes, he did thank me for it. I'm pretty sure he felt understood and was thanking me for the apology and the understanding.

5. You are right! I like that. I woke up early today before his test and told him I was wishing him well and I knew all was going to be okay. He didn't get the results but the nurse called that the dr. doesn't need to see him until next week. He asked the nurse if that meant it wasn't serious and she said well, she would want to see you today if she was worried. He called me very relieved! As far as the texting, I didn't want to rock the boat because he wasn't texting at all until Sunday and it was very soon before he was going to leave. I just played it cool on that one.

6. Yes, the prayer and the holy place felt so good. Both my son and I enjoyed it.

7. Yes, we texted a lot yesterday and that felt good. All happy stuff and caring stuff and prayers. He is coming over 4th of July to set off the fireworks we bought tonight. While we were eating dinner, I asked if he wanted to BBQ during the day on the 4th, again and this time he said maybe. I told him I could go shopping tomorrow night and get all the stuff and to just let me know. Here's hoping and praying....he already said that he can't stay the night since he works the next day and I told him he could bring over work clothes and go from here and he still said no...how can we use the hurt her thing to our advantage? That sounds promising...but can't think of how?

8. Up and down sure is the truth...soooo painful....I do feel like the pain is going to make me explode sometimes...I still love him so much but, definitely feel like I don't know how long I can take this! The idea of him going home to OW is just awful and the idea that he is a couple with someone else is just torture....I don't feel the healing yet...still very broken open...

9. Yes, I am hoping the counseling will do me some good no matter what. I really hope so. I am keeping an open mind.

10. I haven't brought up the weekend at all yet. I have no idea what his plans are yet...I have asked for the whole weekend a couple of times and he just says, "you know I can't do that. ".

Again, thank you!!!!!!! Looking forward to how we will take advantage of the situation, like you said.


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Thank you, as always, I feel better after reading your post!!!!! I also feel better after a long good visit with H! We had dinner, take out from a favorite place, I was invited to shop for fireworks (which I never am) AND when we came back we watched several hilarious episodes of Big Bang Theory and laughed and laughed. He kept saying he needed to go and I asked if we could watch 1 more and he said yes 3 times! He hugged me when he was leaving and said I love you first!!!!! I hugged him and whispered i his ear that this is such a big nightmare and to please make it end and he said yes, I know!!!! That was a bit of a breakdown but, it was so from the heart and he said yes, I know! I am feeling good with that underlying very bad, ya know?
> 
> I broke down your posts by numbering your paragraphs so that I could answer each one without leaving anything out.
> 
> 1. Thank you so much for saying all this and it really means a lot that you would help someone you don't even know. I feel like I am in therapy and getting very good advice. I hope you know how much I appreciate all this help!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 2. More details about this conversation about OW? She can up because he said that she has 2 dogs and he hates them. He is very neat and he says that their hairs are everywhere and the place is impossible to keep clean. He is very clean and can't stand this. We have a cleaning lady once a week and he does not and even here, he would sweep and clean up a lot. (Our cleaning lady also does all the wash and ironing! He lamented missing that, as well.). He also told a story about how one day, she made stuffed cabbage and stunk up the whole condo. He said it grossed him out. Then, he started talking about what his friends were saying and then we started talking about his pickle and he was kinda asking me what I thought henshould do and I told him that I was bias and really couldn't help him with that. I wish I had said that it is very honorable to tell her that you want to go back home and save your marriage and be with hour family but, I didn't. (He always acts like this is not an affair and that he just rushed into a new relationship. He has NEVER ever made it seem like he did anything wrong at all here.) He said something like that she was taking a risk and that she wouldn't die but would be very hurt. He also said that when he told one his friends that she had "proven herself by leaving everything for him" they responded that she may have some dependency issues. He said that he kinda is starting to see it that way, too. I think I also said that it was too painful for me to tell him how to break up with someone without hurting them when I am his wife and am very hurt, but in a very calm, honest way.
> 
> 3. Yes, I could tell it was very painful for him to see his son so out of control and crying every time he woke up during the night. Our poor baby!
> 
> 4. Yes, he did thank me for it. I'm pretty sure he felt understood and was thanking me for the apology and the understanding.
> 
> 5. You are right! I like that. I woke up early today before his test and told him I was wishing him well and I knew all was going to be okay. He didn't get the results but the nurse called that the dr. doesn't need to see him until next week. He asked the nurse if that meant it wasn't serious and she said well, she would want to see you today if she was worried. He called me very relieved! As far as the texting, I didn't want to rock the boat because he wasn't texting at all until Sunday and it was very soon before he was going to leave. I just played it cool on that one.
> 
> 6. Yes, the prayer and the holy place felt so good. Both my son and I enjoyed it.
> 
> 7. Yes, we texted a lot yesterday and that felt good. All happy stuff and caring stuff and prayers. He is coming over 4th of July to set off the fireworks we bought tonight. While we were eating dinner, I asked if he wanted to BBQ during the day on the 4th, again and this time he said maybe. I told him I could go shopping tomorrow night and get all the stuff and to just let me know. Here's hoping and praying....he already said that he can't stay the night since he works the next day and I told him he could bring over work clothes and go from here and he still said no...how can we use the hurt her thing to our advantage? That sounds promising...but can't think of how?
> 
> 8. Up and down sure is the truth...soooo painful....I do feel like the pain is going to make me explode sometimes...I still love him so much but, definitely feel like I don't know how long I can take this! The idea of him going home to OW is just awful and the idea that he is a couple with someone else is just torture....I don't feel the healing yet...still very broken open...
> 
> 9. Yes, I am hoping the counseling will do me some good no matter what. I really hope so. I am keeping an open mind.
> 
> 10. I haven't brought up the weekend at all yet. I have no idea what his plans are yet...I have asked for the whole weekend a couple of times and he just says, "you know I can't do that. ".
> 
> Again, thank you!!!!!!! Looking forward to how we will take advantage of the situation, like you said.



I like the fact that you broke it down if you have not noticed I just feel more comfortable and can order my thoughts better. 

1. I really like talking to you and it is a high point of my day. I think you are a great person and it gives me a good feeling to be helping you so I am kinda selfish in the sense that I do get a lot out of helping you.

2. Hmmm this is actually pretty good overall. That he is reaching out to you and asking you questions shows that he really values your friendship and you input however at the same time it shows that like you have said he feels that this is not wrong. Like you pointed out he went through the divorce to legitimize his affair at this point he is going to keep that up at least to the outward world. I would expect him to keep with this train of thought that he is really just seeing which of you he would like to be with and that it is perfectly okay to that, this is fog talk once we kill the affair we can address this. That he is basically deciding on whether to be with her is VERY good and to tell you how it could be worse he could be saying he loves her and is everything he has ever wanted and his soul-mate. Funny huh but many WS say exactly that now that would be a hard battle to be fought be glad you are not in that one. The dependency issue is correct few self respecting women will get involved with married man even fewer will uproot their lives for them, something is not right in that girl. You did EXCELLENTLY on pointing out your pain I would of added that you want him back and think he should break it off and maybe go with the whole she has issues to do something like that for a married man. Always remember that YOUR pain is relevant and you handled it with the right tone. Him complaining to you about the place they share is actually a great thing because it gives us inside intell now we now what buttons to push to make sure the contrast is ALWAYS in your favor. On this front since you know the cleaning thing is a major issue you just pay close attention to make sure that when he comes over the house is made up, also the dog hair deal could be used if he is willing to have his clothes done by your cleaning lady and he could pick them up. After all going to work with dog hair on you is very embarrassing just keep these in mind for WHEN he does stay over. And when he does you can always offer to have him bring some clothes for the cleaning lady to do.

3. As a mother this will be painful to hear but your son having issues is good for you. And this was bound to happen given how close you both are in fact I was expecting this to happen earlier that your son made it this long is amazing. Expect this to get worse as time goes on, you son is used to him being home and the longer this continues the more it will wear on your son. A few points DO NOT shield your husband from you sons pain, this is a consequence of HIS actions as is YOUR pain. I am not saying use your son against him I am saying do not be the bad guy when you are the good guy. Don't take blame for this, yes you contributed to the marriage going sour but you are now the person trying to put it back together and HIS affair is all HIM. Nothing you did contributed to that.

4. Good part of doing the letter was to give you some closure on that. I don't want you wallowing in guilt for doing it. I don't want you to forget about it but I want you to realize that you are moving on and trying to be a better person. Right now you are making amends for those actions and taking the steps necessary to heal from them. Yes they happened but DO NOT let them define you. The other part was for him he needed to hear it and when it is written down it impacts so much more this will give him some closure he will keep bringing it up but you can always reference the letter now that you have written it you will be able to handle those talks easily because it is ground you have already covered. Plus the letter reduces his arsenal of reasons NOT to be with you any weapon we can take out of him is a win for you.

5. Keep up the texting remember you are forging new connections some will work others will not if you find something he likes to talk about make a mental note of it so that you can come back to it. You did good on the texting the OW wait till it is a problem this is a general rule it is not a problem till it is a problem. I know it had to be hard to stay cool so give your self some points for strength on that one.

6. This is good do things that you enjoy and take your son with you this has two great benefits. One it helps you get your mind off of other stuff and provides a bonding experience with you son. Second it gives you something to text him and make him connect with his family about. Both of these are VERY important don't just stay home unless you want to going out on play dates with you son is a great use of your time.

7. So he is coming over for the 4th but says he cannot stay the night huh? Well you did good in offering for him to bring some clothes again see the thing on the getting some clothes laundered if he is a neat person he is probably REALLY upset to have dog hair on his clothes when he goes to work. Plus a passionate kiss and small comment that you two were unable to have an intimate moment well lets just say if you approach it this way in your texts to him he might be more willing.  The BBQ thing is an easier thing to handle you need to just be a little bit more sneaky. Your suggestion is great that you will go get the stuff now what you need to do is tell him how much your son LOVES his BBQ and how it would make the perfect night for you son. Then just tell him that you are at the store and can pick up everything a little push with a lot of words of admiration and then throw the son in there to close the deal. You can do it if he can resist that he has nerves of steel. 

8. Okay we are going to use this but I am waiting till the end so I can lay it all out for you.

10. Bring it up in fact before he leaves every weekend bring it up but do it in a way that is beneficial to YOU. Remember you set the stage to YOUR advantage he will always have the advantage in a sterile environment because he has detached some and is in an affair. So you need to use your weapons. So first you know what his EN's are now are you using those to your advantage in these talks? You know SF is important to him so you should always look your best don't forget to be flirty. You know he loves admiration so you want to add something how much you enjoy having him over this always comes better if it is specific like you love to watch a show with him or something that you guys do as a family. You can also tag this into his love of recreational stuff. Since affection is one of his as well when having these talks ALWAYS maintain physical touch, holding hands, hugging so on. You have a good idea on what his buttons are so USE them always set the battlefield before you engage. Since so many of his can only be done by being with him when he comes over you want to have these discussions it just adds to your odds.


So now we are going to talk about how to turn one of his strengths into his weakness. From your posts I get the impression that he does not like hurting others probably especially those he loves. So what I am going to outline is a platform for you to make arguments on why it would be better to be with you, this can be risky if you do not genuinely believe it yourself so if you have questions ask. At this moment you are having heavy talks and I think it is time for you to have an idea of some reasoned and well I will just say it emotionally manipulative things to use.

He has in front of him two paths these paths are very different. Down one path he gets a divorce from you and moves on with the OW this will entail that he will only see his son some of the time that he will by circumstances not be part of his sons life 100%. This will also mean that he will be able to meet other women but that you will move on with other men. Lets be real you will have dates as soon as you are ready you will have no shortage of men wanting to be with you. These men will be step dads to his son just as his OW will be a step mom this means that the step dads will spend time with his son that they will bond and have moments that otherwise he would have. His son will be from a broken home through no fault of his own. Now the other path and you can paint this as the IDEAL path is for him to fall madly and deeply in love with you and for you to grow old together to see your son graduate and get married to see your grand kids and watch them grow up. The thing that both paths have in common is that no matter what he does he will hurt someone incredibly there is no avoiding that. There is no path that does not either cause massive harm to the OW or to you and your son. So this is how you are going to frame these discussions the fact of the matter is that there is NO path that he takes that does not injure someone when he brings up her pain or her loss you should let him know NOT just your pain but the fact of the matter is that this will have a long term affect on your son. What he is trying to say is he thinks that by keeping her he is avoiding causing more pain when in fact all he is doing is hurting others. Now he may get defensive and say well I should be happy and you should agree with him. Let him know that you want to continue to date him for months if necessary but as long as the OW is in the picture he will still be at that cross roads making progress on neither path. Now I do not want you to change your actions but you need to have platform that you can make reasoned arguments that not only are logical but that push his buttons in the right order and now that you are having these discussions I would start using this platform. Let me know what you think. Oh and don't forget next time you look are your son to tell yourself you are not only fighting for yourself you are fighting for him too. That is what makes you a good mother


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> I like the fact that you broke it down if you have not noticed I just feel more comfortable and can order my thoughts better.
> 
> 1. I really like talking to you and it is a high point of my day. I think you are a great person and it gives me a good feeling to be helping you so I am kinda selfish in the sense that I do get a lot out of helping you.
> 
> 2. Hmmm this is actually pretty good overall. That he is reaching out to you and asking you questions shows that he really values your friendship and you input however at the same time it shows that like you have said he feels that this is not wrong. Like you pointed out he went through the divorce to legitimize his affair at this point he is going to keep that up at least to the outward world. I would expect him to keep with this train of thought that he is really just seeing which of you he would like to be with and that it is perfectly okay to that, this is fog talk once we kill the affair we can address this. That he is basically deciding on whether to be with her is VERY good and to tell you how it could be worse he could be saying he loves her and is everything he has ever wanted and his soul-mate. Funny huh but many WS say exactly that now that would be a hard battle to be fought be glad you are not in that one. The dependency issue is correct few self respecting women will get involved with married man even fewer will uproot their lives for them, something is not right in that girl. You did EXCELLENTLY on pointing out your pain I would of added that you want him back and think he should break it off and maybe go with the whole she has issues to do something like that for a married man. Always remember that YOUR pain is relevant and you handled it with the right tone. Him complaining to you about the place they share is actually a great thing because it gives us inside intell now we now what buttons to push to make sure the contrast is ALWAYS in your favor. On this front since you know the cleaning thing is a major issue you just pay close attention to make sure that when he comes over the house is made up, also the dog hair deal could be used if he is willing to have his clothes done by your cleaning lady and he could pick them up. After all going to work with dog hair on you is very embarrassing just keep these in mind for WHEN he does stay over. And when he does you can always offer to have him bring some clothes for the cleaning lady to do.
> 
> 3. As a mother this will be painful to hear but your son having issues is good for you. And this was bound to happen given how close you both are in fact I was expecting this to happen earlier that your son made it this long is amazing. Expect this to get worse as time goes on, you son is used to him being home and the longer this continues the more it will wear on your son. A few points DO NOT shield your husband from you sons pain, this is a consequence of HIS actions as is YOUR pain. I am not saying use your son against him I am saying do not be the bad guy when you are the good guy. Don't take blame for this, yes you contributed to the marriage going sour but you are now the person trying to put it back together and HIS affair is all HIM. Nothing you did contributed to that.
> 
> 4. Good part of doing the letter was to give you some closure on that. I don't want you wallowing in guilt for doing it. I don't want you to forget about it but I want you to realize that you are moving on and trying to be a better person. Right now you are making amends for those actions and taking the steps necessary to heal from them. Yes they happened but DO NOT let them define you. The other part was for him he needed to hear it and when it is written down it impacts so much more this will give him some closure he will keep bringing it up but you can always reference the letter now that you have written it you will be able to handle those talks easily because it is ground you have already covered. Plus the letter reduces his arsenal of reasons NOT to be with you any weapon we can take out of him is a win for you.
> 
> 5. Keep up the texting remember you are forging new connections some will work others will not if you find something he likes to talk about make a mental note of it so that you can come back to it. You did good on the texting the OW wait till it is a problem this is a general rule it is not a problem till it is a problem. I know it had to be hard to stay cool so give your self some points for strength on that one.
> 
> 6. This is good do things that you enjoy and take your son with you this has two great benefits. One it helps you get your mind off of other stuff and provides a bonding experience with you son. Second it gives you something to text him and make him connect with his family about. Both of these are VERY important don't just stay home unless you want to going out on play dates with you son is a great use of your time.
> 
> 7. So he is coming over for the 4th but says he cannot stay the night huh? Well you did good in offering for him to bring some clothes again see the thing on the getting some clothes laundered if he is a neat person he is probably REALLY upset to have dog hair on his clothes when he goes to work. Plus a passionate kiss and small comment that you two were unable to have an intimate moment well lets just say if you approach it this way in your texts to him he might be more willing.  The BBQ thing is an easier thing to handle you need to just be a little bit more sneaky. Your suggestion is great that you will go get the stuff now what you need to do is tell him how much your son LOVES his BBQ and how it would make the perfect night for you son. Then just tell him that you are at the store and can pick up everything a little push with a lot of words of admiration and then throw the son in there to close the deal. You can do it if he can resist that he has nerves of steel.
> 
> 8. Okay we are going to use this but I am waiting till the end so I can lay it all out for you.
> 
> 10. Bring it up in fact before he leaves every weekend bring it up but do it in a way that is beneficial to YOU. Remember you set the stage to YOUR advantage he will always have the advantage in a sterile environment because he has detached some and is in an affair. So you need to use your weapons. So first you know what his EN's are now are you using those to your advantage in these talks? You know SF is important to him so you should always look your best don't forget to be flirty. You know he loves admiration so you want to add something how much you enjoy having him over this always comes better if it is specific like you love to watch a show with him or something that you guys do as a family. You can also tag this into his love of recreational stuff. Since affection is one of his as well when having these talks ALWAYS maintain physical touch, holding hands, hugging so on. You have a good idea on what his buttons are so USE them always set the battlefield before you engage. Since so many of his can only be done by being with him when he comes over you want to have these discussions it just adds to your odds.
> 
> 
> So now we are going to talk about how to turn one of his strengths into his weakness. From your posts I get the impression that he does not like hurting others probably especially those he loves. So what I am going to outline is a platform for you to make arguments on why it would be better to be with you, this can be risky if you do not genuinely believe it yourself so if you have questions ask. At this moment you are having heavy talks and I think it is time for you to have an idea of some reasoned and well I will just say it emotionally manipulative things to use.
> 
> He has in front of him two paths these paths are very different. Down one path he gets a divorce from you and moves on with the OW this will entail that he will only see his son some of the time that he will by circumstances not be part of his sons life 100%. This will also mean that he will be able to meet other women but that you will move on with other men. Lets be real you will have dates as soon as you are ready you will have no shortage of men wanting to be with you. These men will be step dads to his son just as his OW will be a step mom this means that the step dads will spend time with his son that they will bond and have moments that otherwise he would have. His son will be from a broken home through no fault of his own. Now the other path and you can paint this as the IDEAL path is for him to fall madly and deeply in love with you and for you to grow old together to see your son graduate and get married to see your grand kids and watch them grow up. The thing that both paths have in common is that no matter what he does he will hurt someone incredibly there is no avoiding that. There is no path that does not either cause massive harm to the OW or to you and your son. So this is how you are going to frame these discussions the fact of the matter is that there is NO path that he takes that does not injure someone when he brings up her pain or her loss you should let him know NOT just your pain but the fact of the matter is that this will have a long term affect on your son. What he is trying to say is he thinks that by keeping her he is avoiding causing more pain when in fact all he is doing is hurting others. Now he may get defensive and say well I should be happy and you should agree with him. Let him know that you want to continue to date him for months if necessary but as long as the OW is in the picture he will still be at that cross roads making progress on neither path. Now I do not want you to change your actions but you need to have platform that you can make reasoned arguments that not only are logical but that push his buttons in the right order and now that you are having these discussions I would start using this platform. Let me know what you think. Oh and don't forget next time you look are your son to tell yourself you are not only fighting for yourself you are fighting for him too. That is what makes you a good mother


Well, CEL, you are very helpful and I appreciate it so much. I am down again. I was so up yesterday and now, I am back down.

3 reasons I am down today:

1. H sent a text that we need to sit down and talk finances cuz with him paying his 1/2 of the bills over here, he is not able to make his rent. I told him that would be fine. Then, he sent some more frustrating texts about how he can't be giving so much money and take care of his rent and other bills, too. It sounded like he was thinking long term and that made me sad. Then, figured out my finances and I will not make it this month without all his usual help and that causes me to be stressed about that, too. I just texted him that I could possibly pay my whole car payment (an additional 200 dollars) but, that I would only have 56 more dollars until the end of the month. Of course, I reminded him that is also because I have to pay 125 for our son's swimming lessons that start this Monday. He usually pays that. Anyway, I really don't want to argue with him about money.

2. I asked him about this weekend because my new counselor wants to see me again this Saturday at 4:30 and wanted him to be with our son since we are usually together around that time. He said he had to make other plans for this Saturday. He had told me earlier that he can't keep coming EVERY Saturday...that means he never spends any Saturday night with the OW. I then, asked him what about Friday? Then, he said probably not....but at least he is still coming over tomorrow. Sounds to me like the OW is getting under his skin or something...so, I am down about that.

3. The counselor seems good. I spent the whole hour telling her the background of our current separation and the 4 years and how, I want to save my marriage and and, I want to make sure that I don't shut down again for 4 years. I guess all that describing of my problems really got me down. She wants to talk about my trust issues next time, she said. Not sure I get what that means but, still, trying to keep an open mind.


Okay, as far as your plan about my platform...it sounds great but, since I am losing confidence that I even have a chance, I just have to say that I hope I get to even use it.

As far as the BBQ, I don't even have the budget for that right now. If he wants to BBQ, he is going to have to supply everything. I am seriously strapped. The good thing is, is next month should be okay because I won't have this big 500 bill that I had to pay only this month.


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Well, CEL, you are very helpful and I appreciate it so much. I am down again. I was so up yesterday and now, I am back down.
> 
> 3 reasons I am down today:
> 
> 1. H sent a text that we need to sit down and talk finances cuz with him paying his 1/2 of the bills over here, he is not able to make his rent. I told him that would be fine. Then, he sent some more frustrating texts about how he can't be giving so much money and take care of his rent and other bills, too. It sounded like he was thinking long term and that made me sad. Then, figured out my finances and I will not make it this month without all his usual help and that causes me to be stressed about that, too. I just texted him that I could possibly pay my whole car payment (an additional 200 dollars) but, that I would only have 56 more dollars until the end of the month. Of course, I reminded him that is also because I have to pay 125 for our son's swimming lessons that start this Monday. He usually pays that. Anyway, I really don't want to argue with him about money.
> 
> 2. I asked him about this weekend because my new counselor wants to see me again this Saturday at 4:30 and wanted him to be with our son since we are usually together around that time. He said he had to make other plans for this Saturday. He had told me earlier that he can't keep coming EVERY Saturday...that means he never spends any Saturday night with the OW. I then, asked him what about Friday? Then, he said probably not....but at least he is still coming over tomorrow. Sounds to me like the OW is getting under his skin or something...so, I am down about that.
> 
> 3. The counselor seems good. I spent the whole hour telling her the background of our current separation and the 4 years and how, I want to save my marriage and and, I want to make sure that I don't shut down again for 4 years. I guess all that describing of my problems really got me down. She wants to talk about my trust issues next time, she said. Not sure I get what that means but, still, trying to keep an open mind.
> 
> 
> Okay, as far as your plan about my platform...it sounds great but, since I am losing confidence that I even have a chance, I just have to say that I hope I get to even use it.
> 
> As far as the BBQ, I don't even have the budget for that right now. If he wants to BBQ, he is going to have to supply everything. I am seriously strapped. The good thing is, is next month should be okay because I won't have this big 500 bill that I had to pay only this month.


I'm sorry you are down Kimmy money is a pain in the azz so let me say some good things first. You are are doing great with all this not everyone can take her husband having an affair, trying to divorce her then realizing that even tho he is having an affair she wants to be with him. You have some great things going for you outside of your husband. You have a fantastic son. You are beautiful. You do have a job. You are responsible. You are a great mother. You have a compassionate heart. You have your faith. You have never cheated. You are fighting for you marriage. You are fighting for you son. You are showing an amazing amount of strength in doing all this.

1. This is actually good I know that it is hard to hear that but it is. This is along with the fact that she makes stinky food and has messy dogs. Every day he stays with her is another day he sees how she is different from you and not in a good way! Your husband jumped the gun and thought everything would be great once he left now he is finding out that money does not grow on trees so sacrifices have to be made. That means that he can't just say to himself well I support them so I don't have to feel bad, the point is that you financed a life TOGETHER now he is seeing that he will have to finance a life APART. This is hard and a ton of work the problem of course would be solved if he just came back home and worked on the marriage but hey maybe that is to simple for him. My advice is to go into this with the expectation that you will have to down grade your life style as will he. Keep the things you HAVE to have like mortgage, food, car payments these have to be the top of the pile then go down and look at the other stuff. You will have to make trade offs but so will he plus the fact is that up till now his life has been pretty good he has had both you and her now he realizes that he can't keep doing that money wise. I would go through your bills and start rating those that you NEED as a 5 and those that you want as a 1 this will give you an idea of where you stand. The other benefit is that it will make you feel better because you will see it on paper. Start with just your income then move on from there. Her moving in with him is a huge drain on his finances. When you filled the paper work how did the finances look? How much was he supposed to pay?

2. You got that right the OW is putting the screws to him so you be the bigger person if he can't make it over then just say okay I wish you would but I can see you have plans. Then you move on nothing more project self assurance these things are going to go up and down the trick is to have no expectations. I know this is easy for me to say but so very hard when if he does not come over it will really hurt you, I get that and I wish I could take that away all I can say is try to keep busy and KNOW that his not coming over is not a reflection on YOU it is only a reflection on HIM. In addition you really don't know what he is going to do he says he can't stay over then he does he says he can't come over then he does. So just play it by ear but remember if he does not well it is HIS loss. You are a great person to be around if he would rather be with cabbage girl then so be it. I am sure he will love to have the dogs lay on him and sleep on him while he is sleeping. LOL

3. I am glad you went to the counselor here is tip if you feel like she put you through the ringer then she is a good one. Her job is to stir your mind up and unearth all the buried baggage so that you can see it in the light of day and deal with it. But you need to understand that this is for you if you don't feel like you get anything from it then move on. This is something to TRY if it works awesome if it does not then okay. Don't make this a success or failure thing.

No worries on the BBQ remember no one thing will sink you or make you swim it is a lot of small things that add up. You will have tomorrow with him and your son take the time for what it is worth with no expectations I think you will have fun. As for the advice hope is always here you know that if you get low come on out and I will do my best to fill you up. I like to think of hope a lot like faith it is always around we just have to look for it but you are in a dark place right now where your strength is being continually tested so it is hard for you to see. Here is the one hope I can always give you this place you are at will pass and you WILL be happy again. Whether you lose him or keep him you will be happy again. You will have a man that comforts you. You will have man that puts you as number 1. You will have that feeling of being treasured. You will share a meaningful life with a man again. You can count on that. Again if you need support all you have to do is post.

3.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> I'm sorry you are down Kimmy money is a pain in the azz so let me say some good things first. You are are doing great with all this not everyone can take her husband having an affair, trying to divorce her then realizing that even tho he is having an affair she wants to be with him. You have some great things going for you outside of your husband. You have a fantastic son. You are beautiful. You do have a job. You are responsible. You are a great mother. You have a compassionate heart. You have your faith. You have never cheated. You are fighting for you marriage. You are fighting for you son. You are showing an amazing amount of strength in doing all this.
> 
> 1. This is actually good I know that it is hard to hear that but it is. This is along with the fact that she makes stinky food and has messy dogs. Every day he stays with her is another day he sees how she is different from you and not in a good way! Your husband jumped the gun and thought everything would be great once he left now he is finding out that money does not grow on trees so sacrifices have to be made. That means that he can't just say to himself well I support them so I don't have to feel bad, the point is that you financed a life TOGETHER now he is seeing that he will have to finance a life APART. This is hard and a ton of work the problem of course would be solved if he just came back home and worked on the marriage but hey maybe that is to simple for him. My advice is to go into this with the expectation that you will have to down grade your life style as will he. Keep the things you HAVE to have like mortgage, food, car payments these have to be the top of the pile then go down and look at the other stuff. You will have to make trade offs but so will he plus the fact is that up till now his life has been pretty good he has had both you and her now he realizes that he can't keep doing that money wise. I would go through your bills and start rating those that you NEED as a 5 and those that you want as a 1 this will give you an idea of where you stand. The other benefit is that it will make you feel better because you will see it on paper. Start with just your income then move on from there. Her moving in with him is a huge drain on his finances. When you filled the paper work how did the finances look? How much was he supposed to pay?
> 
> 2. You got that right the OW is putting the screws to him so you be the bigger person if he can't make it over then just say okay I wish you would but I can see you have plans. Then you move on nothing more project self assurance these things are going to go up and down the trick is to have no expectations. I know this is easy for me to say but so very hard when if he does not come over it will really hurt you, I get that and I wish I could take that away all I can say is try to keep busy and KNOW that his not coming over is not a reflection on YOU it is only a reflection on HIM. In addition you really don't know what he is going to do he says he can't stay over then he does he says he can't come over then he does. So just play it by ear but remember if he does not well it is HIS loss. You are a great person to be around if he would rather be with cabbage girl then so be it. I am sure he will love to have the dogs lay on him and sleep on him while he is sleeping. LOL
> 
> 3. I am glad you went to the counselor here is tip if you feel like she put you through the ringer then she is a good one. Her job is to stir your mind up and unearth all the buried baggage so that you can see it in the light of day and deal with it. But you need to understand that this is for you if you don't feel like you get anything from it then move on. This is something to TRY if it works awesome if it does not then okay. Don't make this a success or failure thing.
> 
> No worries on the BBQ remember no one thing will sink you or make you swim it is a lot of small things that add up. You will have tomorrow with him and your son take the time for what it is worth with no expectations I think you will have fun. As for the advice hope is always here you know that if you get low come on out and I will do my best to fill you up. I like to think of hope a lot like faith it is always around we just have to look for it but you are in a dark place right now where your strength is being continually tested so it is hard for you to see. Here is the one hope I can always give you this place you are at will pass and you WILL be happy again. Whether you lose him or keep him you will be happy again. You will have a man that comforts you. You will have man that puts you as number 1. You will have that feeling of being treasured. You will share a meaningful life with a man again. You can count on that. Again if you need support all you have to do is post.
> 
> 3.



Thank you for the pep talk! I really need to hear all this. I know that I still have hope and need to keep having patience. Today, I know that I will try to have fun and hopefully, feel better after I see him. 

As far as money goes, just trying to not let him be mad at ME about all of this. He seems to be mad at ME. Hopefully, I will be able to somehow play down our problems with money for today. I know the OW is working but not making ANY money...she is a real estate agent and new to the area. He has to be also getting frustrated by that...

I already told him I understand about Saturday. I tried to stay upbeat even though I asked about Friday...but, then, still said I understand. Have to wait and see about that.

The counselor definitely put me through the ringer so, I am going to stick with it.

As far as the BBQ, that can wait until another time. I don't even know if he was going to be here early enough to do that anyway.

I will just try to continue what I am doing...be patient and start trying to do things with friends...and do some projects around the house that I have been wanting to do....

Thank you, as always...


----------



## kimmycat

Another good night: 4th of July went well! H did not get here until 7 PM! So, I spent the day doing things I needed to do and did go buy burgers and hotdogs and decided I would BBq for my son around 6 PM. Well, it took an hour to clean the pit, start the fire and soak wood chips to add smoke flavor. I did it just like H does it. He called at 7:00 and asked what we are doing and I said BBqing and he was so surprised! He said, okay, I am coming over to help you! He said he had had to work in the AM and had gotten "busy" during the afternoon and i said that i understand. So, he took over and grilled the burgers and hotdogs. Our son was inside playing video games and coming in and out so we had time to talk. He kept telling me how beautiful I am! He was acting so loving! The subject of money never even came up! 

Then, we popped fireworks for a couple of hours and it was so fun! He said he wished he could spend the night but, he didn't bring work clothes and had to go to work today.

When he left, he said I love you first again!! Then after hugging our son and our son left the room, he wanted to hug and kiss me again and say that he loved me! He also said that he IS going to come over Saturday, after all!

I am trying to stay up today. So, today, I am hoping and praying that our marriage will have another chance and I know, we can make each other happy. This roller coaster ride is so emotionally draining but, it is all worth it! There really is hope that our marriage can be saved and end up new, strong and happy...

I have now finished the book about Divorce Busting and am going to check out divorcebusters.com or divorcebusting.com today.


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Another good night: 4th of July went well! H did not get here until 7 PM! So, I spent the day doing things I needed to do and did go buy burgers and hotdogs and decided I would BBq for my son around 6 PM. Well, it took an hour to clean the pit, start the fire and soak wood chips to add smoke flavor. I did it just like H does it. He called at 7:00 and asked what we are doing and I said BBqing and he was so surprised! He said, okay, I am coming over to help you! He said he had had to work in the AM and had gotten "busy" during the afternoon and i said that i understand. So, he took over and grilled the burgers and hotdogs. Our son was inside playing video games and coming in and out so we had time to talk. He kept telling me how beautiful I am! He was acting so loving! The subject of money never even came up!
> 
> Then, we popped fireworks for a couple of hours and it was so fun! He said he wished he could spend the night but, he didn't bring work clothes and had to go to work today.
> 
> When he left, he said I love you first again!! Then after hugging our son and our son left the room, he wanted to hug and kiss me again and say that he loved me! He also said that he IS going to come over Saturday, after all!
> 
> I am trying to stay up today. So, today, I am hoping and praying that our marriage will have another chance and I know, we can make each other happy. This roller coaster ride is so emotionally draining but, it is all worth it! There really is hope that our marriage can be saved and end up new, strong and happy...
> 
> I have now finished the book about Divorce Busting and am going to check out divorcebusters.com or divorcebusting.com today.



Wow that is some night sounds like you are hitting cloud nine, I a happy for you! I am going to take apart your post so I can point out all the things you did that contributed to that wonderful night. I am a big believer that when you understand the mechanics of something you can recreate it.



kimmycat said:


> Another good night: 4th of July went well! H did not get here until 7 PM! So, I spent the day doing things I needed to do and did go buy burgers and hotdogs and decided I would BBq for my son around 6 PM. Well, it took an hour to clean the pit, start the fire and soak wood chips to add smoke flavor. I did it just like H does it. He called at 7:00 and asked what we are doing and I said BBqing and he was so surprised! He said, okay, I am coming over to help you!


Wow this is EXACTLY how you handle these things. So you spent your day doing things that YOU needed to do not mopping around waiting on him. You are living you life not waiting for HIS decision. This is how you need to treat things. You are a special person. Men would LOVE to spend time on you. You are great to be around. You make others happy when you with them. You have a LIFE to live. You are a great mother. You are a great person. IF he choses to spend time with you then that is his GAIN but if he does not then that his his LOSS. Remember you are a great person. So you went about your life decided that YOU wanted to BBQ and that if needed YOU would do it by yourself. This is SUPER attractive to a man and tells your husband hey I can live my life with you or without you it is YOUR loss if it is without you. Once he found out you were doing it he probably lost his marbles and was like damn I gotta get over there she is having a great time without me and doing it all on her own she does not really need me in her life not to mention that sounds like a blast. I mean come on what sane guy is not going to love sick over a women setting up BBQ on the 4th especially if she is hot. I bet this woke his shyte up. You know he was like well I don't know if I really want to go over it is such a hassle then I have to drive and it is just all so complicated once he found out you were doing it regardless of what he was doing it shook him UP.



kimmycat said:


> He said he had had to work in the AM and had gotten "busy" during the afternoon and i said that i understand. So, he took over and grilled the burgers and hotdogs


In other words he was unsure how much of his day he was going to "gift you with" and had not thought far enough ahead to budget his time. He also was thinking this was going to be work with getting things ready and was procrastinating I bet he was beating himself on the way over. Once he found out you were not waiting on him he must of hopped up and ran for the car. LOL.



kimmycat said:


> Our son was inside playing video games and coming in and out so we had time to talk. He kept telling me how beautiful I am! He was acting so loving! The subject of money never even came up!


Hell yes he was loving you gave him a taste of the fact that you can live without him. You also upped your sex rank he knows guys would kill to have women who looks like you and gets the BBQ ready and plans the night. He now knows that you can and WILL move on just fine without him. Chances are you will still have the money talk but again don't let this get you down we have a month and half before we even need to worry. So until he does bring it up don't sweat it and if he does just move through it like everything else. 



kimmycat said:


> Then, we popped fireworks for a couple of hours and it was so fun! He said he wished he could spend the night but, he didn't bring work clothes and had to go to work today.
> 
> When he left, he said I love you first again!! Then after hugging our son and our son left the room, he wanted to hug and kiss me again and say that he loved me! He also said that he IS going to come over Saturday, after all!


Yep now he went home to stinky girl and her two messy dogs when he could of spent the night with you in your beautiful home in the arms of hot women and spent more time with his son. Bet he was one unhappy camper LOL. Good that is exactly what he needs to think about moving forward. Now I am glad he is coming over Saturday but you have to detach a little from this Saturday stuff the trick is to have no expectations on whether he is coming over the trick is to plan stuff that you can do together but also that you could do alone. I hate to see this hurt so bad when he is so undecided every week although if I was counting points you are way ahead to me it is obvious that he is playing hard to get but really just can't do without you.  You doing great with all this and hanging in there like a champ just keep it up and you will be fine no matter WHAT happens.

So lets look at the EN's that you met this night, I think his top 5, in order of importance are:
Sexual fulfillment, Admiration, Recreational Companionship, Affection, Physical Attractiveness of Spouse

You hit the Admiration by asking him to the event and asking him to BBQ I am also certain you were flattering to him.
You hit the Recreational Companionship with the event and by doing the BBQ TOGETHER I would also put this at about even on number 2 as he seemed to REALLY value you doing this with him. Is there other stuff you guys used to do together?
You hit the Affection I am sure by just spending time with him and I am sure you were touchy feely with hugs and kisses.
Okay so do I need to even say anything about the Physical Attractiveness of Spouse sounds like he could not keep his hands off you which is TERRIFIC I am sure he looks at his GF as a downgrade.
Now we did not hit his top one but in this case I think that is good because you know he wanted you but just could not have you.

So all around you did great and even more important you had a GOOD time. Remember if he comes up with the relationship stuff lay out his two paths one is the IDEAL path with you and him deeply in love this is what YOU want. The other is a path that has MANY complications including you finding a man that deeply love YOU and sharing your son.


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## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Wow that is some night sounds like you are hitting cloud nine, I a happy for you! I am going to take apart your post so I can point out all the things you did that contributed to that wonderful night. I am a big believer that when you understand the mechanics of something you can recreate it.
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Wow this is EXACTLY how you handle these things. So you spent your day doing things that YOU needed to do not mopping around waiting on him. You are living you life not waiting for HIS decision. This is how you need to treat things. You are a special person. Men would LOVE to spend time on you. You are great to be around. You make others happy when you with them. You have a LIFE to live. You are a great mother. You are a great person. IF he choses to spend time with you then that is his GAIN but if he does not then that his his LOSS. Remember you are a great person. So you went about your life decided that YOU wanted to BBQ and that if needed YOU would do it by yourself. This is SUPER attractive to a man and tells your husband hey I can live my life with you or without you it is YOUR loss if it is without you. Once he found out you were doing it he probably lost his marbles and was like damn I gotta get over there she is having a great time without me and doing it all on her own she does not really need me in her life not to mention that sounds like a blast. I mean come on what sane guy is not going to love sick over a women setting up BBQ on the 4th especially if she is hot. I bet this woke his shyte up. You know he was like well I don't know if I really want to go over it is such a hassle then I have to drive and it is just all so complicated once he found out you were doing it regardless of what he was doing it shook him UP.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. In other words he was unsure how much of his day he was going to "gift you with" and had not thought far enough ahead to budget his time. He also was thinking this was going to be work with getting things ready and was procrastinating I bet he was beating himself on the way over. Once he found out you were not waiting on him he must of hopped up and ran for the car. LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Hell yes he was loving you gave him a taste of the fact that you can live without him. You also upped your sex rank he knows guys would kill to have women who looks like you and gets the BBQ ready and plans the night. He now knows that you can and WILL move on just fine without him. Chances are you will still have the money talk but again don't let this get you down we have a month and half before we even need to worry. So until he does bring it up don't sweat it and if he does just move through it like everything else.
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Yep now he went home to stinky girl and her two messy dogs when he could of spent the night with you in your beautiful home in the arms of hot women and spent more time with his son. Bet he was one unhappy camper LOL. Good that is exactly what he needs to think about moving forward. Now I am glad he is coming over Saturday but you have to detach a little from this Saturday stuff the trick is to have no expectations on whether he is coming over the trick is to plan stuff that you can do together but also that you could do alone. I hate to see this hurt so bad when he is so undecided every week although if I was counting points you are way ahead to me it is obvious that he is playing hard to get but really just can't do without you.  You doing great with all this and hanging in there like a champ just keep it up and you will be fine no matter WHAT happens.
> 
> 5. So lets look at the EN's that you met this night, I think his top 5, in order of importance are:
> Sexual fulfillment, Admiration, Recreational Companionship, Affection, Physical Attractiveness of Spouse
> 
> 6. You hit the Admiration by asking him to the event and asking him to BBQ I am also certain you were flattering to him.
> You hit the Recreational Companionship with the event and by doing the BBQ TOGETHER I would also put this at about even on number 2 as he seemed to REALLY value you doing this with him. Is there other stuff you guys used to do together?
> You hit the Affection I am sure by just spending time with him and I am sure you were touchy feely with hugs and kisses.
> Okay so do I need to even say anything about the Physical Attractiveness of Spouse sounds like he could not keep his hands off you which is TERRIFIC I am sure he looks at his GF as a downgrade.
> Now we did not hit his top one but in this case I think that is good because you know he wanted you but just could not have you.
> 
> 
> 
> 7. So all around you did great and even more important you had a GOOD time. Remember if he comes up with the relationship stuff lay out his two paths one is the IDEAL path with you and him deeply in love this is what YOU want. The other is a path that has MANY complications including you finding a man that deeply love YOU and sharing your son.


Thank you for breaking it down for me, as always, that is so helpful! I numbered your response so I can comment on each part. I don't know how to break up quotes like you do.

1. Yes, I think that was a good move starting the BBq without him...even, when he left, he said he was so proud of me and I know that he was referring to that. It is so hard not to sit at home and just wait for him, especially when he makes us wait until evening when he implied that the we would spend the afternoon and evening together! Now, that it is Saturday and he is coming over, I am going to try and do this again. Still thinking of what I could do...thinking of things that do not cost money so I don't upset him or stress him about money. Thinking of the zoo since we have a membership but it is just soooooo hot where I live...

2. Yes, I do think that he doesn't know how much of any day he is going to gift me AND I don't know how much he is trying to downplay to the OW how much he wants to be with us...he said that night AND yesterday when he called that "he has a lot going on right now". Yesterday, on the phone, I kinda tried to find out what he meant by that...I asked him if there was anything I could do to help and he said no and said that it wasn't "anything earth-shattering" or anything...but, he did say that he probably won't spend the night Saturday because of it. That definitely makes me think that he is still trying to make things work with the OW and trying to reassure her...trying to make us both happy...that is just so painful and contradictory!

3. He was very complimentary...telling me about how beautiful I am and how perfect my body is and how, it is not just him who is biased...that I am just perfect...then, when I would compliment him, he would say that I am just biased, that I only love his body because I love him...that I am just hot to everybody and he is just hot to me...I DON'T know why he was saying all this, I truly do NOT have a great body...he said that I am an hour glass and have the body of Marilyn Monroe...he also, said that I had all that and I didn't use it for 4 years...I think he was referring to the fact that if I had kept him sexually fulfilled, he never would have strayed...I just kept saying I was glad he likes my bod and thinks I am beautiful and am hoping that it will help us now. He was talking a lot in the past tense...maybe, he was thinking out loud, trying to forgive me for the 4 years or trying to release resentment over the 4 years...cuz, he wasn't mad about it, just matter of fact...

4. Yes, trying to think of something to keep my son and I busy today without spending money and that is fun and that H could join in whenever he is finally ready to join us...

5 and 6. I feel feel that I definitely hit 4 out of the 5. You see, he is very famous among family and friends for his superb BBQ...so, I was definitely reminding him of that...amazingly, even burgers and dogs come out delicious from his magic touch! And for affection, next to the pit, he just started hugging and passionately kissing me and telling me he loves me...it felt like when we were dating! He was definitely going on and on about my physical attractiveness! We did sneak off into our bedroom and lock the door after fireworks and he said that it would be all about me!!!! And it was! After, we went out to the back patio, and he said, "Honey, it is not always about me, sometimes, it needs to be only about you!" WHOAH!!!!! Is he trying to make sure that I have SF so that he can be sure that I don't revert back to withholding? Does that hint that he could be seriously considering returning???? I so hope so!

7. Yes, if the relationship stuff comes up, I am going to remind him that there are 2 paths and they BOTH involve hurting people. I am going to remind him that the path back to us will make 3 people very happy in the long run. He just has to come to see that the long run really has a chance of him AND me AND my son being happy.

Thank you for all your guidance! I would not be able to do this without it! AND, without hope and prayer!


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## PBear

I'm going to jump in late. First of, I'm not saying I have any answers. But here goes...

You're the OW right now. Your husband is living the care-free single life with a partner, and coming over for his fix of "family life" and apparently sex. What does his GF know about all this? You're enabling him to have his cake and eat it too. Right now, he's showing you that he's ok with hurting you and your son to protect his GF's feelings. He's also complaining about the financial cost of HIS DECISION, and wanting you to make cut-backs in your lifestyle because of that. What does all that tell you?

I also hope you're limiting things to protected sex, because you don't know his GF's sexual past and their practices...

What does your therapist tell you about this situation? Your parents? The people close to you? I think you should also talk to a lawyer and get an idea about what your realistic financial future would be. How much you could expect your husband to have to pay if you were permanently separated. It would be good for both you and your husband to know what the reality is.

I'm not saying that you should file for divorce or a formal separation or anything. But I'm saying that right now, your husband has the "best" of both worlds. And until he has a reason to change, he has no reason to stop. 

C


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## kimmycat

PBEar, I so see your point. I don't know what the OW knows. He filed for divorce a the end of April. Divorce was supposed to be final 6/24 and he postponed it. It may be rescheduled for August.

I have only been to my IC for the first time last Wednesday and am scheduled to see her again 7/13 due to her being out of town for training. She has not said anything about it yet.

I am not sure you know all the back story because I don't know how much of my thread you have read but, I do see your point about hurting us i order to spare OW's feelings. He made a lot of promises to her before he new that I was going to change and before he knew how bad he was going to miss us and when he was still in affair fog. I have told him that I will be patient and I am going to be patient. Saving my marriage is my top priority. And, if my IC does not want to support me in trying to reconcile, I will stop seeing her.


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## PBear

There's a difference between "trying to reconcile" and "being a doormat". Allowing him to come over whenever he likes and hopping into bed with him after which he trucks on back home to his GF is on the "being a doormat" side of things. In my humble opinion. But I won't harp on that again. 

Again, I hope you're practicing safe sex... Because you have no idea what his GF's sexual past is like. And there's lots of diseases that are asymptomatic for men but nasty for women.

I really do wish you well in reconciling in your marriage.

C


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## kimmycat

So, if I am being a doormat, what does trying to reconcile look like to you?


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## Unique Username

He cheated with her on you and now you on her.....he is still a cheater, why would you want him back? 

Good thing is that you have a lot of skills now to use with someone who deserves you and who wouldn't put you as sloppy second, someone out there you haven't met (because you are pining over you adulterous STBXH) who would honor and cherish you.

The longer you keep yourself out of the dating pool the harder it is going to be to find a better companion and better role model for your Son. 

What is it teaching your son when his Mother is cheated on, Daddy has filed for Divorce and lives with OW and then Mommy still sleeps with Daddy.....
First order of business with your therapist is to immediately work on your self-esteem and getting a more clear view of reality.


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## PBear

Letting him start to understand that his decisions are not consequence free. If he choses to live with someone else, there are financial impacts to his lifestyle. Find out what you're legally entitled to, and enforce that. 

Letting him know clearly that while you still love him, you're no longer willing to have sex with him while he's living with another woman. It's degrading and icky and the only person who "wins" is your husband. Not you or his GF.

Again, what does your family and friends think about the situation? What about his family? Are you in touch with them, as the current DIL and mother of their grand-son/nephew/etc?

C


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## kimmycat

Unique, my son does not know anything about OW and I am trying to keep it that way.

If you read more of this thread, you may understand more that I am 50% to blame for his moving on even if he did move on before getting divorced or telling me he was moving on...

I have thought about the fact that he cheated on me and is now, cheating on her, BUT, I see the uniqueness of our story and feel like I am doing the right thing for now. Just not sure how long I am going to be able to keep it OR how long I should...


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## Unique Username

kimmycat said:


> So, if I am being a doormat, what does trying to reconcile look like to you?


First, seems like YOU are the only one trying to reconcile...not him. He's getting laid by both of you, he is "winning" like charlie sheen. You are stroking his ego, getting his rocks off and at the expense of your self-worth.

I think it is simply fantastic that you have made yourself and your home more appealing and inviting and happier. But Darlin, that is all about YOU! Use this as a great time to work on yourself and don't forget all the things he let you down about. Past behavior most probably predicts future behavior. Sad but true. 

Also think about what would happen swhen he comes back (if he were to) .....are you sure you can deal with the betrayal and not resent him forever. What kind of relationship has little trust? Sounds like he has done ZERO to attone for his wrong doings, he isn't sorry... he is having sex and living with the other woman. He is doing zero to change, so how will it be different should he come back?
What is so great about this "man" that you just must have HIM?

Is it more of your not wanting the "failure" of being divorced? Looks like that's happening regardless.

Have you made sure that all your financial bases are covered? Is he financially supporting you and your son? Do you work?
Are you in a state that has Alimony? 
All the improvements to your appearance and home are lovely, but that isn't going to keep the electricity on and the mortgage paid. And what is the plan for your child's extracurricular activities who will pay? Medical insurance, Life insurance with son as beneficiary (cause if he remarries she would automatically get anything unless this is taken care of first), how is college to be paid for, in 8 years is dad gonna buy the car? pay for sons auto insurance? These are the things you need to be thinking of instead of making it seem like you are suzy homemaker martha stewart and then the "*****" in the bedroomall for a man who doesn't appreciate it and then goes and betrays you (the same evening) with the OW


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## kimmycat

PBear, Okay, only 3 of my closest girlfriends know what is going on. They are supportive of what I am trying to do. At first, they were surprised since I have been so unhappy for 4 years and they thought our divorce was inevitable all that time. At first, 2 of them were VERY mad at me since they wanted me to just move on but, they came around within 24 hours and told me they love me and just want me to be happy.

My dad, who I just told a week ago, is supportive of me trying to reconcile. My mom ( who has been divorced from my dad since I was 5), still does not know anything. She doesn't know about the filing, the separation or anything. This has been very hard to keep from her...she has been out of town and is coming home today. I am not looking forward to the stress of trying to keep it from her any longer. I am not in touch with my inlaws at all. We are not very close and I know he has told his mom and that she is not happy about it at all.


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## Unique Username

And you are leaps and bounds moving in the right direction if you have already internally investigated your part in the dissolving of the relationship....and no I didn't read every single page...I read a few at the beginning and the end and skipped the middle..my bad

A lot of what I'm saying is from experience, what I wish I would have done..what you could still do to make your and your sons life happier sooner rather than later

And kids know a lot more than they let on...just sayin.

Two wrongs don't male a right and basing a relationship on lies and deceit will most probably end in lies and deceit.

I am rooting for you and your son!


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## Unique Username

Why are you so concerned about telling Mom?


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## Unique Username

You need to make a relationship with your Parents in Law, they will always be your kids grandparents. Your bridge/relationship with them is worth fostering. Not their fault their kid chose to be a cheater.


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## kimmycat

I don't want to tell my my mom because she will get very involved and push her way into the situation. I just need her to stay out of it. It is mostly to keep my peace of mind. She will constantly call and come over and nag me about it. I truly believe she loves my H more than she loves me.

I guess I am avoiding more conflict because my plate is sooooo full right now. However, after she returns to town this evening. I am just going to have to tell her. My H has recommended that I tell her that we need our space and to be please respectful of that and he thinks that will work. He says he has the best MIL and he knows the my relationship with her is strained, at best.


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## PBear

kimmycat said:


> PBear, Okay, only 3 of my closest girlfriends know what is going on. They are supportive of what I am trying to do. At first, they were surprised since I have been so unhappy for 4 years and they thought our divorce was inevitable all that time. At first, 2 of them were VERY mad at me since they wanted me to just move on but, they came around within 24 hours and told me they love me and just want me to be happy.
> 
> My dad, who I just told a week ago, is supportive of me trying to reconcile. My mom ( who has been divorced from my dad since I was 5), still does not know anything. She doesn't know about the filing, the separation or anything. This has been very hard to keep from her...she has been out of town and is coming home today. I am not looking forward to the stress of trying to keep it from her any longer. I am not in touch with my inlaws at all. We are not very close and I know he has told his mom and that she is not happy about it at all.



When you say they know what's going on (your friends and your dad), do they know your husband is having sex with you and (presumably) with his GF? Do they all know the whole story, as much as you've told us? Because if one of my friends came to me and told me this story, I'd ask her WTF she was doing, and why she was debasing herself so much for a guy who's just eating cake.

No offense intended.

The sex thing is the biggest issue to me, to be honest. He has a right to see his child, so you couldn't stop that from happening even if you wanted to. And it's probably best that he doesn't have the child over to his place with his GF, which was the subject of your original post. But... That's about where his entitlement ends.

The other big issue I see is the financial one that you raised only recently. And that's where getting a realistic understanding of the financial future is important. He shouldn't be able to expect you and your son to make sacrifices so he can play house with his GF. You have rights as well. And the sooner reality b1tch-slaps him in the face, the better off you'll all be.

Obviously, you're the one living the situation, and if these things aren't issues for you, then carry on. Let him continue to eat cake until he decides to get off the potty and make a decision. But he's got no incentive right now to do that... He's quite comfortable on his throne.

C


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## kimmycat

I'm afraid that if I withhold sex, then, he will think I went back to where I was before he filed for divorce. Hs biggest fear for coming back home is going through 4 years without sex. He is very resentful and bitter about that and I AM SO SORRY. I can't see that stopping sex now would help me get him back at all due to our history. It's practically the whole reason he went looking for her!


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## Unique Username

Well you certainly don't need further meddling. Sounds like you also need to discuss these boundary issues with your therapist too.
Be careful what you share with your parents and siblings. You can't take back what you say or share. THink first.

You say you think she loves him more than you...........that is the way shmooozer men are, they know how to manipulate, especially older women like your mom. 

Have you asked yourself if you respect your STBXH? How will you regain this respect and trust? Have you thought about that maybe your self-inflicted guilt over not satisfying him sexually that he no-doubt claims caused him to stray....turning it around and making you the CAUSE of HIS indiscretions? Lots of those co-dependent books do that, make it out that it isnt the cheater to blame but the wife who didnt satisfy his needs. Were your needs being met? What made it so you wanted to be just his roommate and what changed to make it so that your intimacy was lost (for women its feeling loved and cherished and respected and provided for and supported, lose that then you don't feel like having physical intimacy with someone who isnn't giving you the emotional intimacy you need)

Any of this ringing true?


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## PBear

kimmycat said:


> I'm afraid that if I withhold sex, then, he will think I went back to where I was before he filed for divorce. Hs biggest fear for coming back home is going through 4 years without sex. He is very resentful and bitter about that and I AM SO SORRY. I can't see that stopping sex now would help me get him back at all due to our history. It's practically the whole reason he went looking for her!


Then carry on. Just be safe. 

Personally, as a guy who left an essentially sexless marriage... It would take a LONG time of my STBXW providing regular (and awesome) sex before I'd believe that she's changed. I'm not talking a month or two. I'd always be thinking that she's just waiting for me to figure things were safe and then things would gradually slip back to the way they were.

C


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## kimmycat

I think we were both the cause but, he made the ultimate choice to stray but, it was after many efforts to reach me...yes, it's a big mess and just hoping I will get another chance to save my marriage


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## Unique Username

I hear what you are saying KK but I'm not understanding what you are gaining by reconciling.

What made you stop having sex with him in the first place? Has that issue been resolved? If not, then all this is kinda doomed.


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## PBear

BTW... While the lack of sex and intimacy was a big factor in the demise of my marriage (it was my decision to end it), it was the fact that she simply wasn't willing to work with me or anyone else to try to fix things that was the reason I threw in the towel. If she would have demonstrated to me that she was serious about changing things by investing the time into counseling (for her and us) or even researching via books, I would have taken that as a much better sign than a slightly more frequent roll in the hay.

As UU is saying... More frequent sex now without fixing the issues that caused the problem in the first place is like getting a heart attack patient through the initial trauma, only to have him go back home and resume his unhealthy lifestyle.

And I'm not saying that you're neglecting the issues, by any means. I'm just saying that him understanding that you're taking the issues seriously may be more important than the sex. But I'm only speaking from my perspective, and you know your husband a lot better than I do (obviously).

C


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## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Thank you for breaking it down for me, as always, that is so helpful! I numbered your response so I can comment on each part. I don't know how to break up quotes like you do.
> 
> 1. Yes, I think that was a good move starting the BBq without him...even, when he left, he said he was so proud of me and I know that he was referring to that. It is so hard not to sit at home and just wait for him, especially when he makes us wait until evening when he implied that the we would spend the afternoon and evening together! Now, that it is Saturday and he is coming over, I am going to try and do this again. Still thinking of what I could do...thinking of things that do not cost money so I don't upset him or stress him about money. Thinking of the zoo since we have a membership but it is just soooooo hot where I live...


This is the way to think of things try to figure out something that does not take money and if nothing comes up than you can do the stay at home thing the idea is that you are trying to make the days and event something special. Also this shows him that you are moving on with YOUR life.



kimmycat said:


> 2. Yes, I do think that he doesn't know how much of any day he is going to gift me AND I don't know how much he is trying to downplay to the OW how much he wants to be with us...he said that night AND yesterday when he called that "he has a lot going on right now". Yesterday, on the phone, I kinda tried to find out what he meant by that...I asked him if there was anything I could do to help and he said no and said that it wasn't "anything earth-shattering" or anything...but, he did say that he probably won't spend the night Saturday because of it. That definitely makes me think that he is still trying to make things work with the OW and trying to reassure her...trying to make us both happy...that is just so painful and contradictory!


This is actually good she has to be getting tired of him going over to your house and she has to KNOW you guys are having sex. What man visits his wife and does not have sex with her? My guess is that that relationship is on the rocks right now you are the no pressure one while she has to be PUSHING him for some commitments with heavy guilt trips put in there as well. All love busters so more power to her as this is exactly what you want to happen the more time they spend together the more he will see the contrast I know this kills you but think of the time they are spending as actually time that WORKS for you. He has already complained about her to you, asked you if you thought he should leave her, told you that it would be best if she went back home. This was a rebound relationship built on both of their fantasy lands so it will not last. So when he spends time with her look at that time that he has as time spent MISSING you.



kimmycat said:


> 3. He was very complimentary...telling me about how beautiful I am and how perfect my body is and how, it is not just him who is biased...that I am just perfect...then, when I would compliment him, he would say that I am just biased, that I only love his body because I love him...that I am just hot to everybody and he is just hot to me...I DON'T know why he was saying all this, I truly do NOT have a great body...he said that I am an hour glass and have the body of Marilyn Monroe...he also, said that I had all that and I didn't use it for 4 years...I think he was referring to the fact that if I had kept him sexually fulfilled, he never would have strayed...I just kept saying I was glad he likes my bod and thinks I am beautiful and am hoping that it will help us now. He was talking a lot in the past tense...maybe, he was thinking out loud, trying to forgive me for the 4 years or trying to release resentment over the 4 years...cuz, he wasn't mad about it, just matter of fact...


He is trying to put this thing behind him remember the letter that gave him a sense of closure it made a line in the sand between who you were and who you ARE. When he talks in the past handle it just like you did but also say that your body is to be shared with your HUSBAND. Remember for him the old marriage was very very bad for him, part of his coping is going to be talking about it in the past tense this is okay and should be expected. It does offer you the opportunity to talk about the excitement of having a NEW marriage with him. Make sure to hit the new marriage part instead of making a BETTER marriage. He will want a line in the sand so always when talking about the future use the words of new or star over. Given what he is saying you are far more attractive to him than his GF. This is my thoughts I think he felt very ugly for a long time as when you stopped SF he started thinking VERY negative thoughts about himself I think he just latched onto the first female that showed an interest in him as to him he thinks that other women do not want him. Because when your wife who you had a son with does not even think you are attractive enough to be with then why would some other women think so? What you are seeing now is the damage the 4 years caused as this continues you will see more you may think he has a good self esteem and self confidence but my guess is that really these have been eroded over the years to very very low levels the rest is a mask. When he start revealing this stuff about his poor body image that is your que to start heavy admiration he needs this and it will bond him to you. Right now he is as damaged by the 4 years as you are at his cheating and infidelity just in different ways.



kimmycat said:


> 4. Yes, trying to think of something to keep my son and I busy today without spending money and that is fun and that H could join in whenever he is finally ready to join us...


Good this the right tactic. Live a fun life and if he wants to join good if not then you still have fun with you son.



kimmycat said:


> 5 and 6. I feel feel that I definitely hit 4 out of the 5. You see, he is very famous among family and friends for his superb BBQ...so, I was definitely reminding him of that...amazingly, even burgers and dogs come out delicious from his magic touch! And for affection, next to the pit, he just started hugging and passionately kissing me and telling me he loves me...it felt like when we were dating! He was definitely going on and on about my physical attractiveness! We did sneak off into our bedroom and lock the door after fireworks and he said that it would be all about me!!!! And it was! After, we went out to the back patio, and he said, "Honey, it is not always about me, sometimes, it needs to be only about you!" WHOAH!!!!! Is he trying to make sure that I have SF so that he can be sure that I don't revert back to withholding? Does that hint that he could be seriously considering returning???? I so hope so!


Okay I am going to be honest "well I am always honest with you but still" he has been thinking of coming back since you had sex with him again. That was the break in his heart he wants to come back he just does not trust you. That is the main issue his trust that things will not go back to the way they were. It would be easier for him to divorce you and move on,he has the past 4 years to justify that he needs to move on. Instead he has postponed the divorce to try it out with you what is really going on is he is seeing if he can trust you enough to get back with you. Now that you were feeling like you were back dating is AWESOME news this is exactly the atmosphere you want to have. Not the heavy relationship stuff but the insanely in love dating feel. Remember his mind is telling him to leave you as you have shown him what marriage to you is like his heart is not so sure so the more heart you can get the better. Now lets talk about the SF you know his main EN is SF so when he did that he was telling you he loves you, that he desires you, that you are special to him, it was also his way of saying that he knows he is being selfish and that he is sorry. I know it is not one of you major EN's but this is how he meant it once you get him back we can educate him on your EN's.



kimmycat said:


> 7. Yes, if the relationship stuff comes up, I am going to remind him that there are 2 paths and they BOTH involve hurting people. I am going to remind him that the path back to us will make 3 people very happy in the long run. He just has to come to see that the long run really has a chance of him AND me AND my son being happy.
> 
> Thank you for all your guidance! I would not be able to do this without it! AND, without hope and prayer!


Also if he brings up that he is trying to make everyone happy bring it up that he has a choice his family being happy or his girl friend. Again you are outlining his two paths one is with you and to be part of his family in this you all 3 will be happy and she will be hurt and unhappy. The other is that you and your son will be hurt and unhappy there is no path that makes EVERYONE happy and unhurt. You are doing all the hard work here so you should really be happy with yourself this is a hard path and you are doing AMAZING at it.


----------



## CEL

Unique Username said:


> I hear what you are saying KK but I'm not understanding what you are gaining by reconciling.
> 
> What made you stop having sex with him in the first place? Has that issue been resolved? If not, then all this is kinda doomed.


She had a miscarriage in women this often causes the sex part of the relationship to shut down. It is very common actually one of my first suggestions was IC for her for her long term health this way whether she is with him or not she has a idea why this occurred so she does not repeat negative behavior in the future. Her biggest step has been realizing this is negative behavior once you get to that point finding the help is relatively easy.


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> I think we were both the cause but, he made the ultimate choice to stray but, it was after many efforts to reach me...yes, it's a big mess and just hoping I will get another chance to save my marriage


Don't flood yourself just worry about killing the affair then we work the next steps if you start gazing to far ahead you will lose your resolve for the now not mention you might trip. The future will handle itself very well.


----------



## CEL

PBear said:


> Then carry on. Just be safe.
> 
> Personally, as a guy who left an essentially sexless marriage... It would take a LONG time of my STBXW providing regular (and awesome) sex before I'd believe that she's changed. I'm not talking a month or two. I'd always be thinking that she's just waiting for me to figure things were safe and then things would gradually slip back to the way they were.
> 
> C


This is a great post becuase it shows where your husband is. He is mistrustful what you have to do is earn that trust back and you are doing a wonderful job of it.


----------



## CEL

Unique Username said:


> Well you certainly don't need further meddling. Sounds like you also need to discuss these boundary issues with your therapist too.
> Be careful what you share with your parents and siblings. You can't take back what you say or share. THink first.
> 
> You say you think she loves him more than you...........that is the way shmooozer men are, they know how to manipulate, especially older women like your mom.
> 
> Have you asked yourself if you respect your STBXH? How will you regain this respect and trust? Have you thought about that maybe your self-inflicted guilt over not satisfying him sexually that he no-doubt claims caused him to stray....turning it around and making you the CAUSE of HIS indiscretions? Lots of those co-dependent books do that, make it out that it isnt the cheater to blame but the wife who didnt satisfy his needs. Were your needs being met? What made it so you wanted to be just his roommate and what changed to make it so that your intimacy was lost (for women its feeling loved and cherished and respected and provided for and supported, lose that then you don't feel like having physical intimacy with someone who isnn't giving you the emotional intimacy you need)
> 
> Any of this ringing true?




The affair is 100% his fault there is not excuse for this and one way or another this will have to be dealt with. The environment of the marriage is 50/50 but if one was trying and the other was not then well this is bad as well. Although these issues are related they are not causes of each other. If you are in a marriage where you emotional needs are not met then you will be open to having those needs met outside especially if you have begged, pleaded for years. Now he did the cowardly thing and got a GF before divorcing and this is cheating. He could of just divorced and right now I am sure he wishes he would of as he would not be in the pickle he is. As I said I think these problems are related but not caused by each other both parties had choices in the marriage and both chose poorly. Now we are looking at if the parties have a bedrock of love to build something new from.


----------



## kimmycat

Thank you, CEL!


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Don't flood yourself just worry about killing the affair then we work the next steps if you start gazing to far ahead you will lose your resolve for the now not mention you might trip. The future will handle itself very well.



Thank you, CEL!!!!


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> This is the way to think of things try to figure out something that does not take money and if nothing comes up than you can do the stay at home thing the idea is that you are trying to make the days and event something special. Also this shows him that you are moving on with YOUR life.
> 
> 
> 
> This is actually good she has to be getting tired of him going over to your house and she has to KNOW you guys are having sex. What man visits his wife and does not have sex with her? My guess is that that relationship is on the rocks right now you are the no pressure one while she has to be PUSHING him for some commitments with heavy guilt trips put in there as well. All love busters so more power to her as this is exactly what you want to happen the more time they spend together the more he will see the contrast I know this kills you but think of the time they are spending as actually time that WORKS for you. He has already complained about her to you, asked you if you thought he should leave her, told you that it would be best if she went back home. This was a rebound relationship built on both of their fantasy lands so it will not last. So when he spends time with her look at that time that he has as time spent MISSING you.
> 
> 
> 
> He is trying to put this thing behind him remember the letter that gave him a sense of closure it made a line in the sand between who you were and who you ARE. When he talks in the past handle it just like you did but also say that your body is to be shared with your HUSBAND. Remember for him the old marriage was very very bad for him, part of his coping is going to be talking about it in the past tense this is okay and should be expected. It does offer you the opportunity to talk about the excitement of having a NEW marriage with him. Make sure to hit the new marriage part instead of making a BETTER marriage. He will want a line in the sand so always when talking about the future use the words of new or star over. Given what he is saying you are far more attractive to him than his GF. This is my thoughts I think he felt very ugly for a long time as when you stopped SF he started thinking VERY negative thoughts about himself I think he just latched onto the first female that showed an interest in him as to him he thinks that other women do not want him. Because when your wife who you had a son with does not even think you are attractive enough to be with then why would some other women think so? What you are seeing now is the damage the 4 years caused as this continues you will see more you may think he has a good self esteem and self confidence but my guess is that really these have been eroded over the years to very very low levels the rest is a mask. When he start revealing this stuff about his poor body image that is your que to start heavy admiration he needs this and it will bond him to you. Right now he is as damaged by the 4 years as you are at his cheating and infidelity just in different ways.
> 
> 
> 
> Good this the right tactic. Live a fun life and if he wants to join good if not then you still have fun with you son.
> 
> 
> 
> Okay I am going to be honest "well I am always honest with you but still" he has been thinking of coming back since you had sex with him again. That was the break in his heart he wants to come back he just does not trust you. That is the main issue his trust that things will not go back to the way they were. It would be easier for him to divorce you and move on,he has the past 4 years to justify that he needs to move on. Instead he has postponed the divorce to try it out with you what is really going on is he is seeing if he can trust you enough to get back with you. Now that you were feeling like you were back dating is AWESOME news this is exactly the atmosphere you want to have. Not the heavy relationship stuff but the insanely in love dating feel. Remember his mind is telling him to leave you as you have shown him what marriage to you is like his heart is not so sure so the more heart you can get the better. Now lets talk about the SF you know his main EN is SF so when he did that he was telling you he loves you, that he desires you, that you are special to him, it was also his way of saying that he knows he is being selfish and that he is sorry. I know it is not one of you major EN's but this is how he meant it once you get him back we can educate him on your EN's.
> 
> 
> 
> Also if he brings up that he is trying to make everyone happy bring it up that he has a choice his family being happy or his girl friend. Again you are outlining his two paths one is with you and to be part of his family in this you all 3 will be happy and she will be hurt and unhappy. The other is that you and your son will be hurt and unhappy there is no path that makes EVERYONE happy and unhurt. You are doing all the hard work here so you should really be happy with yourself this is a hard path and you are doing AMAZING at it.



I haven't been on here posting because we just spent an awesome more than 24 hours together!!!! Also, I hadn't read your post until now! I wish I had!

He got here at around 3:00 Saturday and left at around 4:30 today. It was so fantastic!!!! We went out to dinner with our son, then, came home and talked all night on the patio. Lots of loving compliments and I love yous and lovemaking (after our son was asleep)! And fun, intimate conversation. He definitely says I love you first all the time now. He even said it as he drifted off to sleep.

Last night, he really sounded like he was coming back. He told me that one particular friend that he now considers his BEST friend is telling him to go home because we have a wonderful life and child and that I'm wonderful, too. He also said that his friend told him that she had made a too risky move coming down here to live with a man who is still married. His friend told him that I AM his WIFE...of course, it is okay to go back to me. H also told me that we tried it my way for 4 years and that now, we can try it his way...which he explained is not sweating the small stuff and having FUN together.

Yes, he showed lots of poor body image and I told him how much I love his body...definitely see what you are talking about.

He talked about how the OW has been getting UPSET about how much time he wants to spend with his son and how, he needs to spend the night and that she doesn't even know what he is really doing over here. He said that he explained that his son is his life and he will spend as much time with him as possible. He said he was very surprised at this behavior. Then, he asked me what he was doing over here? Was he here just to see his son or was he following his heart? I told him I thought he was doing both. And, he agreed. He really didn't seem to be afraid of hurting her anymore. Maybe cuz he seemed kinda mad at her...so I didn't la y out the 2 paths...he seemed surer that he has been that he is coming back. It was so great.

BUT, he also said, as he was leaving that he still doesn't know what is best for both of us! He is still sooooooo scared that it will go back to me shutdown...I told him that I hope he can trust me and that it is very honorable to come home. He came back how it was honorable that he stayed for the 4 years and I just agreed. I reminded him that I am going to stick with the IC.

I am stuck with how to get him to be certain that I will NOT shutdown again when I get comfortable that he is back. I know that is the key. He says that I have to really understand why that happened and that is when the healing can begin...

As he left, he said that tomorrow, he wants to come by son's swimming lesson after work and then, come over for a little while, too!


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> I haven't been on here posting because we just spent an awesome more than 24 hours together!!!! Also, I hadn't read your post until now! I wish I had!
> 
> He got here at around 3:00 Saturday and left at around 4:30 today. It was so fantastic!!!! We went out to dinner with our son, then, came home and talked all night on the patio. Lots of loving compliments and I love yous and lovemaking (after our son was asleep)! And fun, intimate conversation. He definitely says I love you first all the time now. He even said it as he drifted off to sleep.
> 
> Last night, he really sounded like he was coming back. He told me that one particular friend that he now considers his BEST friend is telling him to go home because we have a wonderful life and child and that I'm wonderful, too. He also said that his friend told him that she had made a too risky move coming down here to live with a man who is still married. His friend told him that I AM his WIFE...of course, it is okay to go back to me. H also told me that we tried it my way for 4 years and that now, we can try it his way...which he explained is not sweating the small stuff and having FUN together.
> 
> Yes, he showed lots of poor body image and I told him how much I love his body...definitely see what you are talking about.
> 
> He talked about how the OW has been getting UPSET about how much time he wants to spend with his son and how, he needs to spend the night and that she doesn't even know what he is really doing over here. He said that he explained that his son is his life and he will spend as much time with him as possible. He said he was very surprised at this behavior. Then, he asked me what he was doing over here? Was he here just to see his son or was he following his heart? I told him I thought he was doing both. And, he agreed. He really didn't seem to be afraid of hurting her anymore. Maybe cuz he seemed kinda mad at her...so I didn't la y out the 2 paths...he seemed surer that he has been that he is coming back. It was so great.
> 
> BUT, he also said, as he was leaving that he still doesn't know what is best for both of us! He is still sooooooo scared that it will go back to me shutdown...I told him that I hope he can trust me and that it is very honorable to come home. He came back how it was honorable that he stayed for the 4 years and I just agreed. I reminded him that I am going to stick with the IC.
> 
> I am stuck with how to get him to be certain that I will NOT shutdown again when I get comfortable that he is back. I know that is the key. He says that I have to really understand why that happened and that is when the healing can begin...
> 
> As he left, he said that tomorrow, he wants to come by son's swimming lesson after work and then, come over for a little while, too!


Wow talk about a lot of progress you should really be proud of yourself you have done some wonderful work. Really you have I have seen things go MONTHS without this much progress you may think things are going slow but in reality given this kind of thing you are going VERY fast with a good steady improvement week to week. Sounds like you had a fantastic time I am going to break it down just add my 2 cents worth.




kimmycat said:


> He got here at around 3:00 Saturday and left at around 4:30 today. It was so fantastic!!!! We went out to dinner with our son, then, came home and talked all night on the patio. Lots of loving compliments and I love yous and lovemaking (after our son was asleep)! And fun, intimate conversation. He definitely says I love you first all the time now. He even said it as he drifted off to sleep.


1. This is great this shows that he is slowly coming out of his shell before he was always hesitant to come over mostly because he was certain that to get back with you would only hurt him, but his heart missed you so much then when he was over his expectations were of the past and you show him this wonderful hot women and he is blown away! Still every time he has come over you have to expect that he is thinking that it will be the past you are SHOWING him that instead it is the future. The I love you and compliments are AWESOME to finally see come out it is how people act when they are IN relationship not when they are trying to distance themselves. In the past you were fighting him he was trying to distance himself to protect himself from you that is what the lack of compliments, waiting to for you to say I love you, the talk about hurting the other women, many of these were designed to push you away and by that to help him well leave you for lack of a better way of saying it. In many ways he was doing the 180 on YOU with all the intentions of moving on. The sleep one is REALLY important it means his last thoughts were to make YOU feel loved that is a GREAT sign.



kimmycat said:


> Last night, he really sounded like he was coming back. He told me that one particular friend that he now considers his BEST friend is telling him to go home because we have a wonderful life and child and that I'm wonderful, too. He also said that his friend told him that she had made a too risky move coming down here to live with a man who is still married. His friend told him that I AM his WIFE...of course, it is okay to go back to me. H also told me that we tried it my way for 4 years and that now, we can try it his way...which he explained is not sweating the small stuff and having FUN together.
> 
> Yes, he showed lots of poor body image and I told him how much I love his body...definitely see what you are talking about.


2. This is good this is YOUR exact argument and don't ever give it up. It is the RIGHT thing to do. It will hurt the less people. It will take care of those he loves. It will give his son a chance to have a good home. It is the IDEAL choice. The he wants to try it his way is fine in reality once you are back together you will go to MC, read some books and start a NEW marriage built on a good solid foundation. But at this time just let him think he is driving there is plenty of time to fight other battles when you have him safely at home. LOL sounds like and ambush but really all I am saying is allow him this but don't get discouraged by thinking YOUR needs are not going to get met they will this is just something to deal with after that is all. The body image thing is going to go hand in hand with his confidence in many ways the 4 years has had a radical impact on him that will be felt for most of his life and certainly the extent of your marriage but as time goes by it will lessen and become just another part instead of a focus. Keep up with the compliments but make sure they are sincere plus a good butt grab is never really a bad thing. 



kimmycat said:


> He talked about how the OW has been getting UPSET about how much time he wants to spend with his son and how, he needs to spend the night and that she doesn't even know what he is really doing over here. He said that he explained that his son is his life and he will spend as much time with him as possible. He said he was very surprised at this behavior. Then, he asked me what he was doing over here? Was he here just to see his son or was he following his heart? I told him I thought he was doing both. And, he agreed. He really didn't seem to be afraid of hurting her anymore. Maybe cuz he seemed kinda mad at her...so I didn't la y out the 2 paths...he seemed surer that he has been that he is coming back. It was so great.


3. Yep she is like a wet car right now you can lay dollars to donuts about that. She knows he is having sex with you. She knows he is thinking about leaving her. She has a massive problem. Here she is away from home, no friends, no money, no safety net, with a married guy who is still sleeping with his wife. That is a BAD situation for her and has to be heavy stress. So she has GOT to be love busting right and left with demands, criticisms, and probably with holding sex. That time with her has GOT to be filled with resentful silence. Like I said DO NOT worry about his time with her that is helping you much more than it is her. As long as you keep making the time you spend with him the best you can avoid those love buster make sure you meet his EN's and if the relationship comes up stick to your platform you will be make progress. I think as time goes by he will worry less about making her mad or hurting her because the infatuation and fantasy is wearing off for him. He never loved her it was never going to go anywhere with her. All she was to him was a quick lay and a safety blanket so he knew he could still get women when he left you. Sad but that is what it is, he was hurting and she was life raft well once you get out of the river you don't keep you life raft with you. Like I said it was never going to go anywhere even if you did not want to take him back the relationship would of died just would of taken longer.



kimmycat said:


> BUT, he also said, as he was leaving that he still doesn't know what is best for both of us! He is still sooooooo scared that it will go back to me shutdown...I told him that I hope he can trust me and that it is very honorable to come home. He came back how it was honorable that he stayed for the 4 years and I just agreed. I reminded him that I am going to stick with the IC.
> 
> I am stuck with how to get him to be certain that I will NOT shutdown again when I get comfortable that he is back. I know that is the key. He says that I have to really understand why that happened and that is when the healing can begin...
> 
> As he left, he said that tomorrow, he wants to come by son's swimming lesson after work and then, come over for a little while, too!


4. Ignore the he does not know crap this is just him being hurt and not wanting to seal himself in. You are going to get this when he is ready to come back it will happen all of a sudden so expect him to spout phrases like this up until that moment. Like I said and the other poster did it was 4 years for his mind he already knows what being with you is like and it is not good. But his heart is all yours so you keep plugging away at that heart and you keep being flirty and acting like you are dating and his head will eventually just give up. Also remember and you did this don't be shy about talking about the steps you are taking to both understand why it happened but to make sure it never happens again. I think he brought this up because he is really starting to consider it now it is more on the not that he is not going to come back but more on the negotiation of when he comes back how is it going to play out. That is the discussion you are moving into. Keep plugging him with the ACTIONS you have taken IC, reading books, the letter, if he start talking about not wanting to go back think of your letter and tell HIM how he felt going through that and that you would NEVER do that to the person you loved again. Also add this that no matter what happens between you and him you don't want to carry that forward into any relationship, this is kind of manipulative as he will start thinking hey some other guy is going to benefit from this that is just NOT right.

You are not stuck on how to win him back you have pages of things to win him back. What you want is a magic wand to do it NOW LOL. Nothing wrong with that but like I said you are doing GREAT and making FANTASTIC progress both with him and the more important part YOURSELF. Keep doing what we have talked about make sure you are still texting also if you have not start looking into flirty texts remember DATING. When you were dating you wanted to drive him wild so that he only really see's YOU, well this is a lot like that. If you have questions on the flirty texts you can look it up just do what you are comfortable with and don't go out of character. I firmly believe EVERY women can be flirty and sexy with texts and it still be in CHARACTER. Don't forget to make the time with him an EVENT that means looking nice, and being on your game. Keep in mind his EN's when talking about relationships given his needs you SHOULD never have discussion about it without touching that means thigh, hands or shoulders you NEED his heart engaged in this discussion so make sure you get it engaged.

So final thoughts are that you are doing GREAT I think I have said that a bunch of times And that I think you are changing phases hopefully from the will you come back to the what will it be like WHEN I com back. Time will tell but keep you head up and keep posting especially if you are feeling down. Oh and I got your back my hopes as always are with you.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Wow talk about a lot of progress you should really be proud of yourself you have done some wonderful work. Really you have I have seen things go MONTHS without this much progress you may think things are going slow but in reality given this kind of thing you are going VERY fast with a good steady improvement week to week. Sounds like you had a fantastic time I am going to break it down just add my 2 cents worth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. This is great this shows that he is slowly coming out of his shell before he was always hesitant to come over mostly because he was certain that to get back with you would only hurt him, but his heart missed you so much then when he was over his expectations were of the past and you show him this wonderful hot women and he is blown away! Still every time he has come over you have to expect that he is thinking that it will be the past you are SHOWING him that instead it is the future. The I love you and compliments are AWESOME to finally see come out it is how people act when they are IN relationship not when they are trying to distance themselves. In the past you were fighting him he was trying to distance himself to protect himself from you that is what the lack of compliments, waiting to for you to say I love you, the talk about hurting the other women, many of these were designed to push you away and by that to help him well leave you for lack of a better way of saying it. In many ways he was doing the 180 on YOU with all the intentions of moving on. The sleep one is REALLY important it means his last thoughts were to make YOU feel loved that is a GREAT sign.
> 
> 
> 
> 2. This is good this is YOUR exact argument and don't ever give it up. It is the RIGHT thing to do. It will hurt the less people. It will take care of those he loves. It will give his son a chance to have a good home. It is the IDEAL choice. The he wants to try it his way is fine in reality once you are back together you will go to MC, read some books and start a NEW marriage built on a good solid foundation. But at this time just let him think he is driving there is plenty of time to fight other battles when you have him safely at home. LOL sounds like and ambush but really all I am saying is allow him this but don't get discouraged by thinking YOUR needs are not going to get met they will this is just something to deal with after that is all. The body image thing is going to go hand in hand with his confidence in many ways the 4 years has had a radical impact on him that will be felt for most of his life and certainly the extent of your marriage but as time goes by it will lessen and become just another part instead of a focus. Keep up with the compliments but make sure they are sincere plus a good butt grab is never really a bad thing.
> 
> 
> 
> 3. Yep she is like a wet car right now you can lay dollars to donuts about that. She knows he is having sex with you. She knows he is thinking about leaving her. She has a massive problem. Here she is away from home, no friends, no money, no safety net, with a married guy who is still sleeping with his wife. That is a BAD situation for her and has to be heavy stress. So she has GOT to be love busting right and left with demands, criticisms, and probably with holding sex. That time with her has GOT to be filled with resentful silence. Like I said DO NOT worry about his time with her that is helping you much more than it is her. As long as you keep making the time you spend with him the best you can avoid those love buster make sure you meet his EN's and if the relationship comes up stick to your platform you will be make progress. I think as time goes by he will worry less about making her mad or hurting her because the infatuation and fantasy is wearing off for him. He never loved her it was never going to go anywhere with her. All she was to him was a quick lay and a safety blanket so he knew he could still get women when he left you. Sad but that is what it is, he was hurting and she was life raft well once you get out of the river you don't keep you life raft with you. Like I said it was never going to go anywhere even if you did not want to take him back the relationship would of died just would of taken longer.
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Ignore the he does not know crap this is just him being hurt and not wanting to seal himself in. You are going to get this when he is ready to come back it will happen all of a sudden so expect him to spout phrases like this up until that moment. Like I said and the other poster did it was 4 years for his mind he already knows what being with you is like and it is not good. But his heart is all yours so you keep plugging away at that heart and you keep being flirty and acting like you are dating and his head will eventually just give up. Also remember and you did this don't be shy about talking about the steps you are taking to both understand why it happened but to make sure it never happens again. I think he brought this up because he is really starting to consider it now it is more on the not that he is not going to come back but more on the negotiation of when he comes back how is it going to play out. That is the discussion you are moving into. Keep plugging him with the ACTIONS you have taken IC, reading books, the letter, if he start talking about not wanting to go back think of your letter and tell HIM how he felt going through that and that you would NEVER do that to the person you loved again. Also add this that no matter what happens between you and him you don't want to carry that forward into any relationship, this is kind of manipulative as he will start thinking hey some other guy is going to benefit from this that is just NOT right.
> 
> You are not stuck on how to win him back you have pages of things to win him back. What you want is a magic wand to do it NOW LOL. Nothing wrong with that but like I said you are doing GREAT and making FANTASTIC progress both with him and the more important part YOURSELF. Keep doing what we have talked about make sure you are still texting also if you have not start looking into flirty texts remember DATING. When you were dating you wanted to drive him wild so that he only really see's YOU, well this is a lot like that. If you have questions on the flirty texts you can look it up just do what you are comfortable with and don't go out of character. I firmly believe EVERY women can be flirty and sexy with texts and it still be in CHARACTER. Don't forget to make the time with him an EVENT that means looking nice, and being on your game. Keep in mind his EN's when talking about relationships given his needs you SHOULD never have discussion about it without touching that means thigh, hands or shoulders you NEED his heart engaged in this discussion so make sure you get it engaged.
> 
> So final thoughts are that you are doing GREAT I think I have said that a bunch of times And that I think you are changing phases hopefully from the will you come back to the what will it be like WHEN I com back. Time will tell but keep you head up and keep posting especially if you are feeling down. Oh and I got your back my hopes as always are with you.



1. Yes, I really do see a change with the I love you and especially, the one as he was falling asleep...it really made me feel sooooo loved and happy. I am so happy that you see a change from pushing me away to being in a relationship with ME. Thank you for that perspective. That really helps and makes me feel better now that I am alone missing him now that he is back over there.

2. You're right, I will keep making sure he knows that coming home is best for our son, him and me. I plan on ordering the Dr. Harley workbook to go with the 2 of his books that I read so that we can do them together. AND, see if he will go to my IC as an MC if she ends up being helpful. I do like his idea of not sweating the small stuff and doing FUN things together. It seems like the may be 2 of the things that the OW has done for him that he wants to get from me in the future IF he decides to come back...yes the body image thing is something I will work on with him because I DO love his body and him so much! I have only complimented when he came out and said it but, I will find ways, like a butt grab, to give compliments when he is not fishing for them.

3. Yes, I hope she is love using tonight...reality has set in and things are not going well over there. Of course, I hope that he is being truthful about that and he seemed really sincere, especially about her lack of understanding of needing to see his son so much. He has said they sleep in separate rooms...I hope that is really true, too. 

4. Everytime, he says that we don't know what is going to happen, it is soooo hard. i just say i understand. I am glad you think he is just saying that! I am going to read this section over and over to remember how to keep getting his heart. Keep being flirty and act like we are dating, check! Yes, that 4 years scares him so much...I will keep pointing out the steps I am taking to solve and understand and keep that from ever happening again. Yes, I need to keep telling him that that was wrong and was not showing him I loved him and that can never happen again. AND, add that in a future relationship, if we can't reconcile, I will be aware of that potential problem and not let it happen either...your right, a little manipulative, but I need him to see that I really know that it will not happen again.

For sure, I want the magic wand! LOL! Of course,, your advice and support is like a magic wand and greatly appreciated! 
I am going to send a flirty text in the morning when he is at work...I don't want to while he is at his place because he may think I am just trying to cause problems...I just want him to enjoy the flirty texts and be able to delete them before he gets home...it is so awesome that I am off for the summer! (I am a teacher.). I will have time to get fixed up to take son to swimming lessons so he can see me at my best just like I have been doing...

Yes, I have to be patient and upbeat and keep praying...thank you so much and I will keep posting and appreciating all this awesome guidance!!!!!!


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> My husband filled for divorce saying it was time to give up after 4 years (out of 10) of living as roommates. I agreed but, started to think that we should try to make it work after realizing it was my fault that we had turned into roommates. After a couple of weeks of living together and knowing he had filed, I asked if he was seeing someone else and he said yes. I couldn't believe it. Now, I knew why he had really filed. He had moved on. He said that he had been longing for a relationship for a long time and it just happened. She lived far away and that is why he had been going away for the weekends recently, about 4 weekends. He said she was going to move here and they were going to live together. Well, after 4 more weeks, he found an apartment and she made the big move, leaving her job, family and friends to move here to be with him. Now, he says that he wishes that he had not let her move here yet because maybe, he wants to come back. I think that she had been a fantasy and the reality of them living together has helped him see the light and now, he has regrets.
> 
> We still don't know what is going to happen. anyway, we have a son,8, and my H comes here to visit him. This is all very new. He only moved out 3 weeks ago. He comes to dinner at our house twice a week. He spent the night last Saturday night and spent most of the next day with us, which was Father's Day.
> 
> Yesterday, he told me that the OW has been bothering him to meet our son and spend time with him over at their place. I told him that it is better that he keep coming here if we may reconcile. I don't want our son to meet her because then, it would seem permanent that she is part of the picture. He says he is getting pressure from both of us.
> 
> I am so confused. I have been reading lots of posts and it seems like he is "cake-eating" and I am being understanding. But, should I agree to let him introduce our son to her and his situation?


I am sorry to hear about what you are going through. I have read the whole thread and this roller coaster must be very difficult for you. I have a young child also, similar age and have been through divorce. There are lots of difficult questions when a parent goes through this kind of situation with a child. I think it is wise to at least bear in mind the probability of divorce and act accordingly.

Judges will always put the interests of the child first. The extent to which you can put the interests of the child first not only give your child the best help through what is a difficult time for them, but also aligns you favorably for any future court action.

btw Even if your goal is reconciliation, it is wise to keep track of all the time you and your husband each spend with your child. This is one of the most important things any good attorney will tell you. I recommend that you get a time tracking app and immediately get in the habit of using it. Also start thinking about protecting yourself (e.g. look into your finances too) as though divorce may happen. When you consider that half or more of all *starting* marriages end in divorce, what chance does that give yours starting where you are at now? The risk for you is very high imo. I think it would be wise for you to begin to plan how you could make yours and your child's life beautiful even in that case.

I had a clause in one of my pre-divorce actions that ostensibly prevented my ex from having our child around another man. It was unenforceable and ineffective but it was probably a lot better than nothing. An eight year old understands a whole lot, but not enough to make full sense of the situation. It is already very confusing and hurtful, but adding attachment to another woman who is quite possibly transient is not a good idea for your child and in your shoes I would be making some effort to persuade your husband of this. There is also a question regarding her dependency or stability if she would make such drastic life changes so quickly. (Makes me wonder what truth we have had from H about this?) This issue may crop up again as the 2-month period comes to an end. If he tries to say, "2 months is up, you said we could introduce our son to her", I would not be inclined to permit that.

Even giving your H the benefit of the doubt, I have little respect for his actions. You had reasons for being closed off, it was not all on you. He is lying to her, in my view probably lying to you both and his actions are in my view downright cowardly. The longer he stays on the fence the more the uncertainty drags on both women and your son. I feel you should bring this fence-sitting/cake-eating to an end. He is clearly not overly keen on either of you. He tells you he loves you, repeatedly. I find that disingenuous to say the least. Ralph W. Emerson said "Who you are is speaking so loudly I cannot hear what you are saying". A person who loves another doesn't treat them this way. Another person I admire, can't remember who, was asked what he would advise his daughter when she wanted to know whether a man loved her. He said that she should watch what he does and ignore everything he says. I give you the same advice. His actions are confusing because quite probably, he is confused. I believe when he tells you he loves you, he is expressing residual attachment. That is not the same as love. He is *not* acting like a man who loves you. 

He kept her a secret for a while. I wonder how many other women might he have kept a secret? We're all only assuming he stopped at only one OW. He might be juggling a 3rd relationship too. I would only be mildly surprised to learn about that or to find out that he is hitting on other women while having sex with both of you. There is also the slim possibility that he's just a pathological manipulator/womanizer that we're only just discovering.

I am sorry that my post is somewhat pessimistic. I am very pro-marriage. especially where kids are concerned, but I feel that you are receiving well-intentioned but poor advice in the majority of this thread to pursue/appease him. I believe you should give your H a deadline of maybe a couple of weeks to get off the fence. I feel you should gently but firmly require that he commit to working on your marriage by demonstrably ending his relationship with OW, or you will have to push the divorce forward. Please note that he has already indicated to you in several ways that he doesn't really feel right with OW long term. So he is either lying to you or he should be able to drop her for a chance of saving his family, right? Either way you win. If he's lying you will get the pain over faster. If he's not you will push her out of the picture without interfering directly. Take back some control over your life and make a brave decision.


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> He has said they sleep in separate rooms...I hope that is really true, too.


I just noticed this and I find it very hard to believe. Sex was his big deal, he's spending all this time with her, that he won't spend with you, you're willing to give him sex whenever he wants, and they supposedly sleep in separate rooms??

I'm sorry to say it's looking more and more like he's making a fool out of you... 

When I went through my divorce I would neglect/minimize/gloss over all the hurtful signs that my ex no longer really loved me... because I so much wanted to save my marriage...

I think you are doing the same thing.


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## Aerith

Kimmy,

That's a great news! Fingers crossed  

GetTough,
I don't think Kimmy's husband is lying... He didn't lie about his relationship and future plans with OW before (while still living in marital home) - so, why now? Highly unlikely...
He is the one who filed...What does he hope to gain?


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> I am sorry to hear about what you are going through. I have read the whole thread and this roller coaster must be very difficult for you. I have a young child also, similar age and have been through divorce. There are lots of difficult questions when a parent goes through this kind of situation with a child. I think it is wise to at least bear in mind the probability of divorce and act accordingly.
> 
> Judges will always put the interests of the child first. The extent to which you can put the interests of the child first not only give your child the best help through what is a difficult time for them, but also aligns you favorably for any future court action.
> 
> btw Even if your goal is reconciliation, it is wise to keep track of all the time you and your husband each spend with your child. This is one of the most important things any good attorney will tell you. I recommend that you get a time tracking app and immediately get in the habit of using it. Also start thinking about protecting yourself (e.g. look into your finances too) as though divorce may happen. When you consider that half or more of all *starting* marriages end in divorce, what chance does that give yours starting where you are at now? The risk for you is very high imo. I think it would be wise for you to begin to plan how you could make yours and your child's life beautiful even in that case.
> 
> I had a clause in one of my pre-divorce actions that ostensibly prevented my ex from having our child around another man. It was unenforceable and ineffective but it was probably a lot better than nothing. An eight year old understands a whole lot, but not enough to make full sense of the situation. It is already very confusing and hurtful, but adding attachment to another woman who is quite possibly transient is not a good idea for your child and in your shoes I would be making some effort to persuade your husband of this. There is also a question regarding her dependency or stability if she would make such drastic life changes so quickly. (Makes me wonder what truth we have had from H about this?) This issue may crop up again as the 2-month period comes to an end. If he tries to say, "2 months is up, you said we could introduce our son to her", I would not be inclined to permit that.
> 
> Even giving your H the benefit of the doubt, I have little respect for his actions. You had reasons for being closed off, it was not all on you. He is lying to her, in my view probably lying to you both and his actions are in my view downright cowardly. The longer he stays on the fence the more the uncertainty drags on both women and your son. I feel you should bring this fence-sitting/cake-eating to an end. He is clearly not overly keen on either of you. He tells you he loves you, repeatedly. I find that disingenuous to say the least. Ralph W. Emerson said "Who you are is speaking so loudly I cannot hear what you are saying". A person who loves another doesn't treat them this way. Another person I admire, can't remember who, was asked what he would advise his daughter when she wanted to know whether a man loved her. He said that she should watch what he does and ignore everything he says. I give you the same advice. His actions are confusing because quite probably, he is confused. I believe when he tells you he loves you, he is expressing residual attachment. That is not the same as love. He is *not* acting like a man who loves you.
> 
> He kept her a secret for a while. I wonder how many other women might he have kept a secret? We're all only assuming he stopped at only one OW. He might be juggling a 3rd relationship too. I would only be mildly surprised to learn about that or to find out that he is hitting on other women while having sex with both of you. There is also the slim possibility that he's just a pathological manipulator/womanizer that we're only just discovering.
> 
> I am sorry that my post is somewhat pessimistic. I am very pro-marriage. especially where kids are concerned, but I feel that you are receiving well-intentioned but poor advice in the majority of this thread to pursue/appease him. I believe you should give your H a deadline of maybe a couple of weeks to get off the fence. I feel you should gently but firmly require that he commit to working on your marriage by demonstrably ending his relationship with OW, or you will have to push the divorce forward. Please note that he has already indicated to you in several ways that he doesn't really feel right with OW long term. So he is either lying to you or he should be able to drop her for a chance of saving his family, right? Either way you win. If he's lying you will get the pain over faster. If he's not you will push her out of the picture without interfering directly. Take back some control over your life and make a brave decision.


I am choosing to believe him now in order to save my marriage. Yes, he is on the fence and yes, it is tough but I also hurt him VERY badly for 4 years...I'm going with CEL and Aerith...and prayer


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## kimmycat

Aerith, Thank you!!!! Fingers crossed is right!!!!!

Thank you for posting your thoughts! You're right HE filed and HE was still living at home...


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## kimmycat

kimmycat said:


> I am choosing to believe him now in order to save my marriage. Yes, he is on the fence and yes, it is tough but I also hurt him VERY badly for 4 years...I'm going with CEL and Aerith...and prayer


Just want to add that I especially appreciate the part where you say to make the brave decision at the end of your post. I am just not sure it is the right thing to do...gonna stick with patience


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## CEL

I am going to weigh in here "surprising huh". He filed and was set to divorce this is the opposite of cake eating this is him saying I want out of the marriage with no doubt. He only changed this when Kimmy changed he had come to the realization that he did not want to be with her. As in a lot of cases he found a women and this helped him move on, but he was already 90% there. 

Now is he playing her and cake eating now? Maybe but understand they have done all the paperwork and filed they may be legally separated in that case it is not considered cheating in that case given the divorce papers I have hard time calling it that. The papers are a clear declaration only in the past 3 weeks has this changed I don't think a judge would call it cheating.

Let's tackle the idea that they are sleeping in other beds. Likely? No. Does it matter? No. At this point Kimmy can chose to believe it or not I would tell her to trust him as it makes this part of the process easier there will be plenty of time later to find the truth.

Now let's look at bravery. EI and MrsMathias are two WS on this forum I personally consider two of the most inspirational people I have had the pleasure of knowing. I find there journey and there strength to be both awe inspiring and beautiful. Both are in reconciliation with there husbands. Their husbands are LUCKY to have them they are wonderful women who any guy "yes including me" would be blessed to have. Both have cheated and lied that is not who they are it is what they did. Where am I going? It took an amazing amount of bravery on not only their part but on there husbands part to reconcile. It was the path that was MORE difficult and required more courage. That is not always the way as I really believe each persons situation is truly there own. 

To divorce or reconcile is a personal choice both require a lot of work and tears to go through. Both change a person forever. For some one way or another can be easier but neither are easy. 

Kimmy you are being VERY brave. You are being VERY strong. I think you are doing the right thing because you are fighting for your family, for the man you love and for your sins future. But I would support you if you wanted to divorce as well and give you a whole other set of why you are doing the right thing. Only you can make the decision. Whatever you decide does not change my support for you.


----------



## Aerith

Kimmy,

I also wanted to add - while there is no guarantee, I believe that your chances in winning your husband back are really good... 
Just stay calm and keep going...


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## alte Dame

I, too, think you have a chance of reconciling. You admit that your H was burned for 4 long years by you and had reached his limit. It will take time for him to trust you again, but from what you say, it sounds like there is still love there on his part for you.

I also wouldn't believe that he's sleeping in separate rooms from the OW, but given your strategy, that shouldn't matter. You're trying to convince him that you will love him completely if he decides to give you another chance & after four years, this is a hard sell. He needs to see real change and staying power. He's cake-eating, for sure, but not in the usual way, in my opinion. (Especially since this OW picked up her life to move in with a married man - he's in a very awkward position if he is considering reconciling.)

Anyway, August will be here before we know it & you will have an answer for sure about his attitude toward divorce.

I wish you luck. This can't be easy for anyone.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> I am going to weigh in here "surprising huh". He filed and was set to divorce this is the opposite of cake eating this is him saying I want out of the marriage with no doubt. He only changed this when Kimmy changed he had come to the realization that he did not want to be with her. As in a lot of cases he found a women and this helped him move on, but he was already 90% there.
> 
> Now is he playing her and cake eating now? Maybe but understand they have done all the paperwork and filed they may be legally separated in that case it is not considered cheating in that case given the divorce papers I have hard time calling it that. The papers are a clear declaration only in the past 3 weeks has this changed I don't think a judge would call it cheating.
> 
> Let's tackle the idea that they are sleeping in other beds. Likely? No. Does it matter? No. At this point Kimmy can chose to believe it or not I would tell her to trust him as it makes this part of the process easier there will be plenty of time later to find the truth.
> 
> Now let's look at bravery. EI and MrsMathias are two WS on this forum I personally consider two of the most inspirational people I have had the pleasure of knowing. I find there journey and there strength to be both awe inspiring and beautiful. Both are in reconciliation with there husbands. Their husbands are LUCKY to have them they are wonderful women who any guy "yes including me" would be blessed to have. Both have cheated and lied that is not who they are it is what they did. Where am I going? It took an amazing amount of bravery on not only their part but on there husbands part to reconcile. It was the path that was MORE difficult and required more courage. That is not always the way as I really believe each persons situation is truly there own.
> 
> To divorce or reconcile is a personal choice both require a lot of work and tears to go through. Both change a person forever. For some one way or another can be easier but neither are easy.
> 
> Kimmy you are being VERY brave. You are being VERY strong. I think you are doing the right thing because you are fighting for your family, for the man you love and for your sins future. But I would support you if you wanted to divorce as well and give you a whole other set of why you are doing the right thing. Only you can make the decision. Whatever you decide does not change my support for you.



I believe that I am doing the right thing, too...I HAVE TO fight for the man I love and my family. I will never CHOOSE divorce but, I know it is something I may have to accept if that it was H ultimately decides let let be finalized...all I can do now is stay the course, keep working on myself and keep SHOWING him that I have changed and can be trusted. HOPEFULLY, he will eventually see that his marriage and family are worth the risk AND come gone to start the reconciliation process together with me using the HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS...I also bought SURVIVING AN AFFAIR by Harley even though, your right, it isn't technically an affair NOW, but it did start out that way...it has mostly the same things about love busters and ENs but it has more specific stories geared infidelity and how they happen due to not fulfilling ENs.

Thank you for your support CEL!


----------



## kimmycat

Aerith said:


> Kimmy,
> 
> I also wanted to add - while there is no guarantee, I believe that your chances in winning your husband back are really good...
> Just stay calm and keep going...


Thank you, stay calm and keep going, got it...


----------



## kimmycat

alte Dame said:


> I, too, think you have a chance of reconciling. You admit that your H was burned for 4 long years by you and had reached his limit. It will take time for him to trust you again, but from what you say, it sounds like there is still love there on his part for you.
> 
> I also wouldn't believe that he's sleeping in separate rooms from the OW, but given your strategy, that shouldn't matter. You're trying to convince him that you will love him completely if he decides to give you another chance & after four years, this is a hard sell. He needs to see real change and staying power. He's cake-eating, for sure, but not in the usual way, in my opinion. (Especially since this OW picked up her life to move in with a married man - he's in a very awkward position if he is considering reconciling.)
> 
> Anyway, August will be here before we know it & you will have an answer for sure about his attitude toward divorce.
> 
> I wish you luck. This can't be easy for anyone.


Thank you...you have a lot of good points...just trying to stay positive and keep trying. You're right, August is here in 3 weeks...


----------



## karole

KC, I have a question, do you think if the tables were turned and it was you with a boyfriend that your husband would continue to sleep with you knowing that you were sleeping with another man? 

Have you and your husband been checked for STDs for your health and safety?

KC, I know you are working to save your marriage and family and I appreciate that; however, at what cost to yourself? If he takes six months or more to make up his mind whether or not he wants to work on the marriage, are you expected to continue sleeping with him whenever he wants while he is also sleeping with the OW? Personally, I could not do it.

I really hope things work out for you KK, I really do.


----------



## GetTough

Aerith said:


> Kimmy,
> 
> That's a great news! Fingers crossed
> 
> GetTough,
> I don't think Kimmy's husband is lying... He didn't lie about his relationship and future plans with OW before (while still living in marital home) - so, why now? Highly unlikely...
> He is the one who filed...What does he hope to gain?


He didn't want her before. He may never have had any real need to lie about OW existence, he needs to break the divorce to her somehow. The two big reasons he may be lying now are either because he's decided he wants to keep his options open or... because it is strongly in the leaving spouse's interests to keep the left spouse hopeful while assets and custody are sorted out. I notice he started talking about money pretty quickly. I know how hurtful THAT is in Kimmy's situation. I've been there.

Kimmy have you verfied that the divorce has been delayed? I have heard stories of men who tell their stbxs "don't worry about the paperwork, I've cancelled/delayed it", and they are naively believed only to get their version of a settlement uncontested. I think you need to be really careful with this man now. He's is actively lying to at least one person, we know that much for sure. If he can get you to avoid lawyering up by sweet talking you or following through with that appropriately, it could cost you a lot of time with your child. You may feel you can trust him, but I do not trust him. He has allowed, encouraged OW to give up her whole life based on what? Now he feels like he may want to toss her aside? Really? If it is true, is that kind of man to be trusted? I think not!


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> He didn't want her before. He may never have had any real need to lie about OW existence, he needs to break the divorce to her somehow. The two big reasons he may be lying now are either because he's decided he wants to keep his options open or... because it is strongly in the leaving spouse's interests to keep the left spouse hopeful while assets and custody are sorted out. I notice he started talking about money pretty quickly. I know how hurtful THAT is in Kimmy's situation. I've been there.
> 
> Kimmy have you verfied that the divorce has been delayed? I have heard stories of men who tell their stbxs "don't worry about the paperwork, I've cancelled/delayed it", and they are naively believed only to get their version of a settlement uncontested. I think you need to be really careful with this man now. He's is actively lying to at least one person, we know that much for sure. If he can get you to avoid lawyering up by sweet talking you or following through with that appropriately, it could cost you a lot of time with your child. You may feel you can trust him, but I do not trust him. He has allowed, encouraged OW to give up her whole life based on what? Now he feels like he may want to toss her aside? Really? If it is true, is that kind of man to be trusted? I think not!


ALL divorce papers have been, filed and SIGNED and agreed on by both of us. It was supposed to be finalized without my presence June 24 and he had it postponed. Why would he lie? HE IS GIVING ME way more money than the child support will be....


----------



## just got it 55

GetTough said:


> He didn't want her before. He may never have had any real need to lie about OW existence, he needs to break the divorce to her somehow. The two big reasons he may be lying now are either because he's decided he wants to keep his options open or... because it is strongly in the leaving spouse's interests to keep the left spouse hopeful while assets and custody are sorted out. I notice he started talking about money pretty quickly. I know how hurtful THAT is in Kimmy's situation. I've been there.
> 
> Kimmy have you verfied that the divorce has been delayed? I have heard stories of men who tell their stbxs "don't worry about the paperwork, I've cancelled/delayed it", and they are naively believed only to get their version of a settlement uncontested. I think you need to be really careful with this man now. He's is actively lying to at least one person, we know that much for sure. If he can get you to avoid lawyering up by sweet talking you or following through with that appropriately, it could cost you a lot of time with your child. You may feel you can trust him, but I do not trust him. He has allowed, encouraged OW to give up her whole life based on what? Now he feels like he may want to toss her aside? Really? If it is true, is that kind of man to be trusted? I think not!


Kimmy......Sweetie Don't be anybody's plan B


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## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> I am choosing to believe him now in order to save my marriage. Yes, he is on the fence and yes, it is tough but I also hurt him VERY badly for 4 years...I'm going with CEL and Aerith...and prayer


Yes and when my ex left me I blamed myself too. And she was confused and she wanted to talk about money, not us. And I took similar actions to you, in order to save my marriage. I understand and I feel for you. It's a horrible place to be and I understand why you want to take the actions you do. But my actions ultimately failed and I paid a much higher price in the process than I need have done. I am convinced if had had more self-respect I would much more likely have succeeded.


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> ALL divorce papers have been, filed and SIGNED and agreed on by both of us. It was supposed to be finalized without my presence June 24 and he had it postponed.  Why would he lie? HE IS GIVING ME way more money than the child support will be....


I don't know all the reasons why he might lie. I do know that things can get VERY weird in a divorce. For example, what if he had a big stash of cash he'd kept hidden for years? Are you sure you have all the information? That's just one possibility. What does your lawyer say you would likely get compared to what you are getting? 

I do agree with you that there is a fair chance he simply wanted out to be with her. I respect and admire the purity of your intention to believe and trust him, however I also think it is sensible given the situation and his present behavior for you to do as Reagan said. Trust, but verify.


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## CEL

I try to follow occams razor the simplest answer is usually the right one. They agreed on the divorce both went through all the paper work. She received custodial custody and the money that she wanted and felt was fair. Now she could go back and look at it but if you are happy with the settlement why would you? So here she sits she can go on or give it till the last part of August given the time of their marriage I think waiting a month is reasonable to see if they want to stay married or part.


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## kimmycat

CEL said:


> I try to follow occams razor the simplest answer is usually the right one. They agreed on the divorce both went through all the paper work. She received custodial custody and the money that she wanted and felt was fair. Now she could go back and look at it but if you are happy with the settlement why would you? So here she sits she can go on or give it till the last part of August given the time of their marriage I think waiting a month is reasonable to see if they want to stay married or part.


I got the standard child support for my state and budget wise, that will be sufficient. He is now paying much more...everything that he has always paid with the exception of half the housekeeper which is fair because he doesn't live here now.


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## kimmycat

I am happy to report that he came over tonight and just left...we had a nice time, no real heavy talk but I still have hope.

That is Saturday, Saturday night, Sunday almost all day AND tonight with our son and I. He shared that he went over to a mutual friends' house Sunday evening until around 10. He said he spoke with the couple about us and they shared that they have been having problems, too. I, therefore, know for sure that the OW did not go with him. That means, he has not spent an evening with her since Friday...

Feeling hopeful...


----------



## CEL

you are doing great all you have to do is stay the course. Plus that he was talking about you and him as a couple to another couple is VERY promising. Just as a contrast do you think he would of done that even a week ago?

You should feel hopeful you have done a lot of very hard work to get here and this weekend has been full if good signs. Hopes are with you


----------



## kokonatsu

oh man, kimmycat, I can't imagine what you're going through! I'm so amazed at your strength to fight for your man! Actually, I logged in just to tell you that I also am routing for you, I really really hope you and your husband work through this!


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## kimmycat

CEL said:


> you are doing great all you have to do is stay the course. Plus that he was talking about you and him as a couple to another couple is VERY promising. Just as a contrast do you think he would of done that even a week ago?
> 
> You should feel hopeful you have done a lot of very hard work to get here and this weekend has been full if good signs. Hopes are with you


Thank u, CEL...I don't think he would have been talking like that even a week ago...this same couple is having a birthday party for their son this Saturday and he said he wants to take our son and I asked if I could come along and he said that he thought he would take him by himself but, said, maybe...I told him I have a an IC appointment at 3:00...so, if it was during that time, maybe, I could take them and go from there and rejoin them? He thought that might be okay...we don't know the party times yet but, I am hopeful...this couple is an old couple friend of ours that we used to hang out with before they relocated to another town and have just recently relocated back to our town...actually, their first date was OUR WEDDING 10 years ago! We have lots of very good memories with them. AND, when we went to their wedding, we had just found out we were pregnant with our son! H and this man grew up together...they are very concerned about our current situation and are really pulling for us, I know...

Thank you again for all your support and hopes...I'm staying the course....

Thank you for your hopes!


----------



## kimmycat

kokonatsu said:


> oh man, kimmycat, I can't imagine what you're going through! I'm so amazed at your strength to fight for your man! Actually, I logged in just to tell you that I also am routing for you, I really really hope you and your husband work through this!



Thank you, Kokonatsu!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for this post!!!!!!!! I need all the routing possible!!!!!!


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## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> I don't know all the reasons why he might lie. I do know that things can get VERY weird in a divorce. For example, what if he had a big stash of cash he'd kept hidden for years? Are you sure you have all the information? That's just one possibility. What does your lawyer say you would likely get compared to what you are getting?
> 
> I do agree with you that there is a fair chance he simply wanted out to be with her. I respect and admire the purity of your intention to believe and trust him, however I also think it is sensible given the situation and his present behavior for you to do as Reagan said. Trust, but verify.


I know that he has no hidden cash. I just know. We have been very bad at saving $, mainly because our son is in an expensive private school...and we try to keep our debts down...

I know I will probably get beaten up on here for this but here goes: since this is an uncontested and very amicable divorce....I HAVE NO LAWYER...I didn't want to make it expensive and he gave me everything except one dining set, 2 lamps, 2 tables and our bed frame. The tables and bed frame are not paid for and he is still making payments on them so he wanted them.

Like I said before, we have already signed ALL the papers and all the judge has to do is finalize and it's done...

I hope and pray that it never gets finalized...


----------



## kimmycat

Everafter2013 said:


> That whole "we sleep in separate bedrooms" is the classic line of a cheater. It has been fed to APs everywhere. You believe it because you want to believe it.
> 
> You have made it clear that you want to fight to get your husband back. Your husband did lie by omission. He only admitted when you asked, and after he was out of the door. Many, including me, think what you are doing is rewarding the cheating behaviour. But it's your life, your decision. However, please don't jump into it with eyes wide shut. You are the other woman in this triangle, he is lying to his GF about sleeping with you. If you are fine with that, so be it. But never for a second think that he is not sleeping with her too. So be safe and protect yourself.


I agree he is most likely sleeping with her, but prefer not to think about it. I didn't sleep with him for 4 years! Now, I am and we are being safe EVERY time.

I just refuse to think of MYSELF as the OW. I AM HIS WIFE and HAVE BEEN FOR 10 YEARS! Sorry, I respect your opinion, but I am still his wife...she is the OW. I am not going to feel guilty about doing what I have to do to get my WH back. 

Sex has to be a part of it, plain and simple due to our specific circumstances. I would NOT be doing it either if it wasn't from my heart and he knows that too well...it is a part of our marriage that was missing for 4 years and I want my H, my family and a new marriage and am going to fight for it until the day the judge says we are divorced!


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## MissKiss

This must be hurtful...but even if you don't want to think of yourself as the other woman, he has made you just that. He is openly in an official relationship with a new woman. He committed himself to this new relationship when he moved her in with him. So now she is his girlfriend in front of everyone while you have no status...wife, but not really wife, ex, but not really ex. He is sleeping with you behind his official partner's back. That makes it an affair with his legal wife as the other woman. I understand you wanti
g him back, but you are stealing him from his girlfriend just like an ex spouse would be the AP in their spouse's new relationship. And that is not really ethic...although you are not legally divorced you are no longer officially together. So by doing that, you pretty much do what the other woman did. Busting up a relationship.
I'm curious if someone asked him, who is he currently cheating on? Who would he say is the official partner, and who is he having an affair with...the situation is so twisted. I wish you luck, really. You need it
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Aerith

All is fair in love and war!!!

My thoughts/opinions are below...

1. Hypothetical Lies. Kimmy's husband is not a typical cheater and not a typical liar.. I cannot see the reason not to trust him. From Kimmy's descriptions her husband looks like a person who makes decision slowly and on a very rational level. He collects the facts and opinions carefully before he has his decisions made... So, after desperately wanting Kimmy and living in a sexless marriage for 4 years, he made the decision to move on and get divorced. He found OW - you know the story... However what happened after was unpredictable - that's why I think he is so confused now... He needs some time to adjust to the new reality...with mind-blowing sex with Kimmy!!! And he needs time to overcome his fears... 

2. Ethical side of the story and OW... It was not ethical from OW side to move in with a married man... She said that she gave up a lot for him - but so she says... 

3. Be prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Kimmy, on legal, financial and all other tangible levels you ready for divorce. So, no any further steps are necessary - so, leave it for now.. You will come back to that in August when/if necessary... 

4. Winning your husband back. It's 200% worth all the efforts!!! That is the area you should focus all your mental, physical, sexual energy!!! Love, Love and more Love - and mind-blowing sex!!!


----------



## turnera

You said he wouldn't have done so and so a week ago, but now you're all hopeful. Just sayin', no quick decisions, ok? If he tears up the papers and asks to come home, PLEASE don't say yes. He may just be fighting with his girlfriend and grooming you for a place to stay.


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## 5Creed

I think that most of us who have been in the middle of a separation and possibly headed to divorce have felt a little like you do now. I do want to say that it is very important for you to get your own lawyer. You are not being disloyal to him, or giving him any kind of ultimatum message; nor would it be the final straw if you hired one. What you are doing is protecting your child's future and yours. I have seen this happen with friends when one spouse convinces the other that only one lawyer is necessary; whether it be finances or whatever. It has never turned out well for the spouse that was not represented. So please hire one today! It does not mean that divorce is inevitable; but only that you are serious about your child's future.


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## Aerith

Everafter,

From my life experience, nobody is perfect... 

We need to deal with real people - and sometimes people we love do things that cause us pain ... Does it mean we need to reject them? In some cases, yes, it might be a solution - so, we would avoid more pain in the future. 

I agree with you, it's painful to watch your husband leaving home and going to OW... However, what you do watching that makes a big difference. Some people just weep and complain about WS and definitely they receive a lot of sympathy and assurances that "they deserve better"... Other people fight... Kimmy is a fighter and her soul will be all right...


----------



## Openminded

I hope for the best outcome for you. I don't think any of us go into marriage excited about the possibility of divorce at some point. But that happens. Just know that if it should happen to you (and I hope it doesn't) you will get through it and you will rebuild your life.


----------



## kimmycat

MissKiss said:


> This must be hurtful...but even if you don't want to think of yourself as the other woman, he has made you just that. He is openly in an official relationship with a new woman. He committed himself to this new relationship when he moved her in with him. So now she is his girlfriend in front of everyone while you have no status...wife, but not really wife, ex, but not really ex. He is sleeping with you behind his official partner's back. That makes it an affair with his legal wife as the other woman. I understand you wanti
> g him back, but you are stealing him from his girlfriend just like an ex spouse would be the AP in their spouse's new relationship. And that is not really ethic...although you are not legally divorced you are no longer officially together. So by doing that, you pretty much do what the other woman did. Busting up a relationship.
> I'm curious if someone asked him, who is he currently cheating on? Who would he say is the official partner, and who is he having an affair with...the situation is so twisted. I wish you luck, really. You need it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see your point but, I am his wife and he has a family with me...I deserve a chance to have my marriage renewed and saved...

I don't think it is unethical for me to try and save my marriage no matter what commitment he has made to anyone. Our relationship was in shambles when he met her and received comfort and support from her and I totally understand that...

I am just NOT going to feel like I am unethical or stealing my own H of 10 years from anyone, especially when we are not even divorced. 

I am having enough trouble staying strong and positive without people trying to tell me that I am unethical and stealing people's boyfriends....you have the right to your opinion but, this is my life and I am fighting for my husband, our family and our life together, our son and I truly believe I am doing the right thing and will not give up until I have to give up...


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## alte Dame

My own gut feeling about this is that OP's H spent 4 years in a marriage that was bad enough for both of them to agree to divorce. He tried during that time and then gave up hope. The divorce was pursued and he tried to move on. She agrees to it all, but she still loves him and is sad that it has come to this. She starts to see that she can change some of the things that broke their marriage and gives him some signals of hope. He still has feelings for her, maybe even still loves her, but now has given some commitment to another woman. So yes, he's stuck, but wants to hope that the woman he loved for so long could actually be his W again.

Optimistic? Perhaps. I just don't see him as the classic cake-eater here. He had four years of no sex from his W and the obvious estrangement that led to divorce. If he's cautious, that would be natural. Yes, kimmy should do what she needs to to protect herself legally, but I can sympathize with her wanting to take this chance right now.


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## turnera

I think MissKiss is asking OP to take a hard look at what her husband is doing. He is - again - displaying cheating behavior. He is sneaking around on his CURRENT SO, hiding his actions and most likely lying to her.

What makes OP think that he would suddenly STOP such cheating behavior if he were to come home to her?


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## kimmycat

Aerith said:


> All is fair in love and war!!!
> 
> My thoughts/opinions are below...
> 
> 1. Hypothetical Lies. Kimmy's husband is not a typical cheater and not a typical liar.. I cannot see the reason not to trust him. From Kimmy's descriptions her husband looks like a person who makes decision slowly and on a very rational level. He collects the facts and opinions carefully before he has his decisions made... So, after desperately wanting Kimmy and living in a sexless marriage for 4 years, he made the decision to move on and get divorced. He found OW - you know the story... However what happened after was unpredictable - that's why I think he is so confused now... He needs some time to adjust to the new reality...with mind-blowing sex with Kimmy!!! And he needs time to overcome his fears...
> 
> 2. Ethical side of the story and OW... It was not ethical from OW side to move in with a married man... She said that she gave up a lot for him - but so she says...
> 
> 3. Be prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Kimmy, on legal, financial and all other tangible levels you ready for divorce. So, no any further steps are necessary - so, leave it for now.. You will come back to that in August when/if necessary...
> 
> 4. Winning your husband back. It's 200% worth all the efforts!!! That is the area you should focus all your mental, physical, sexual energy!!! Love, Love and more Love - and mind-blowing sex!!!



1. Thank you for putting all that together. I agree with you and thank you. I was feeling pretty beat up on here...he does make decisions slowly and I truly believe he needs to overcome his very well-founded fears and I am going to be patient.

2. Agree, she took a big risk...and, I do not understand how she could be a stable person that she would do that. Maybe she didn't really give up anything but is very needy and disparate.

3. Yes, true. I have my budget ready and am working on trimming expenses even more to make sure that my son and I can make it comfortably staying in our house and keeping him in private school.

4. Thank you so much for this!!!! I also believe it is 200% worth every ounce of effort...for love and mind-blowing sex!!!!


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> You said he wouldn't have done so and so a week ago, but now you're all hopeful. Just sayin', no quick decisions, ok? If he tears up the papers and asks to come home, PLEASE don't say yes. He may just be fighting with his girlfriend and grooming you for a place to stay.


You're right, no quick decisions, no false hopes...trying...

I know it is not working out over there...but, a lot of the reason is because he misses his son, me, his life and can see that I have changed but still being cautious because he is so scared that our marriage could go back to the way it was before all this...

I need him home to prove to him that I have changed...also, he has no reason to groom me for a place to stay... He knows that he will need her to leave and go back to where she used to live which is over 4 hours away and that he can stay in his apartment until he decides he is ready to come home.


----------



## kimmycat

Aerith said:


> Everafter,
> 
> From my life experience, nobody is perfect...
> 
> We need to deal with real people - and sometimes people we love do things that cause us pain ... Does it mean we need to reject them? In some cases, yes, it might be a solution - so, we would avoid more pain in the future.
> 
> I agree with you, it's painful to watch your husband leaving home and going to OW... However, what you do watching that makes a big difference. Some people just weep and complain about WS and definitely they receive a lot of sympathy and assurances that "they deserve better"... Other people fight... Kimmy is a fighter and her soul will be all right...



I am a fighter and very imperfect, too...I am doing what I can to be understanding and take this one day at a time...thank you for your thoughts...very helpful...


----------



## kimmycat

Openminded said:


> I hope for the best outcome for you. I don't think any of us go into marriage excited about the possibility of divorce at some point. But that happens. Just know that if it should happen to you (and I hope it doesn't) you will get through it and you will rebuild your life.



You're right, I know I will get through it and it will be hell...but, so is this...I am hoping and praying to get to the other side of all this a better, stronger person, no matter the outcome...


----------



## kimmycat

alte Dame said:


> My own gut feeling about this is that OP's H spent 4 years in a marriage that was bad enough for both of them to agree to divorce. He tried during that time and then gave up hope. The divorce was pursued and he tried to move on. She agrees to it all, but she still loves him and is sad that it has come to this. She starts to see that she can change some of the things that broke their marriage and gives him some signals of hope. He still has feelings for her, maybe even still loves her, but now has given some commitment to another woman. So yes, he's stuck, but wants to hope that the woman he loved for so long could actually be his W again.
> 
> Optimistic? Perhaps. I just don't see him as the classic cake-eater here. He had four years of no sex from his W and the obvious estrangement that led to divorce. If he's cautious, that would be natural. Yes, kimmy should do what she needs to to protect herself legally, but I can sympathize with her wanting to take this chance right now.



Thank you! I definitely hope your optimistic view is right...


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> I think MissKiss is asking OP to take a hard look at what her husband is doing. He is - again - displaying cheating behavior. He is sneaking around on his CURRENT SO, hiding his actions and most likely lying to her.
> 
> What makes OP think that he would suddenly STOP such cheating behavior if he were to come home to her?


IF he comes home, I plan on using Dr. Harley's HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS plan to affair proof our marriage...hopefully, when his ENs are met, he will stay faithful....I have to have faith and start a new marriage...


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## turnera

Ok, but IF he comes home, he MUST come home hat in hand, full of remorse. If he brings no remorse to the table, you are just a convenience. Without the humility inherent in the remorse, it will always be YOUR fault that he HAD to cheat. And THAT person will just cheat again, no matter how hard you initiate HNHN.


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> Ok, but IF he comes home, he MUST come home hat in hand, full of remorse. If he brings no remorse to the table, you are just a convenience. Without the humility inherent in the remorse, it will always be YOUR fault that he HAD to cheat. And THAT person will just cheat again, no matter how hard you initiate HNHN.


Good point...I hope he comes home...right, now, I can only focus on that...


----------



## turnera

So...if he 'decides' to bless you with his presence, you'll just take him back, just like that? Is HE aware that you'll take him back, no questions asked?


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## kimmycat

turnera said:


> So...if he 'decides' to bless you with his presence, you'll just take him back, just like that? Is HE aware that you'll take him back, no questions asked?


He knows I will take him back....not the no questions asked part...we talk 3-4 times per week about where we are with the decision to try again...which would include him coming home...

We talk about how we are passed the blaming...we are both to blame to some degree...we are just in a holding pattern right now while he decides if he can get over the fear of coming back...

What questions would you suggest????


----------



## CEL

What is with this. He has not even come back yet. Yes we have great signs but lets deal with that when it happens. We are all looking into a future that may or may not happen. If he comes back why should she turn him away? To make a point, to hurt him as she has been hurt is this how you start a new marriage with someone. They give you a chance and you stab them? Wait but he is a vile cheater, well technically they could be considered separated do no he really is not. You are guessing on how long the affair went on for and what it entailed. 

When/if he comes back they will have MC as well as long talks about not only the affair but the rest of the marriage. So this would be the time to talk remorse to put in place things to make it affair proof. Thus is also the time where they both set up what they need in the marriage. Wether he comes back on his knees or with a smile does not matter all that because it is only a STEP. Then we move onto the next step in the process where we start getting details and dealing with remorse.

The point is that when building a house you don't start worrying about the roof when you not even finished the foundation. Lets get him HOME then we look at the rest. Even once he is home as they go through the process of building a new marriage she may decide that she would rather move on. So NOTHING is set in stone.

Kimmy just let thus stuff go in the future it MAY and only MAY matter. But right now focus on what you are doing. You are getting great progress. Doing an awesome job. Showing tremendous live for him and your son. Just focus on that. How did the flirty text go? Do you know when he is coming over next!


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## turnera

We'll have to agree to disagree. He is watching her and analyzing her. How she acts now, what she says, what she seems to be willing to forgive or not, will affect his decision. If she shows that she'll take him back no matter what, he loses respect for her and it puts her on his mental back burner; a fall back plan. IF she shows that she's been near mortally wounded and she'd have to see heavy heavy lifting from him before she'd consider letting him come home, his respect for her rises, her appeal rises, and his willingness to look at his own actions increases.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> What is with this. He has not even come back yet. Yes we have great signs but lets deal with that when it happens. We are all looking into a future that may or may not happen. If he comes back why should she turn him away? To make a point, to hurt him as she has been hurt is this how you start a new marriage with someone. They give you a chance and you stab them? Wait but he is a vile cheater, well technically they could be considered separated do no he really is not. You are guessing on how long the affair went on for and what it entailed.
> 
> When/if he comes back they will have MC as well as long talks about not only the affair but the rest of the marriage. So this would be the time to talk remorse to put in place things to make it affair proof. Thus is also the time where they both set up what they need in the marriage. Wether he comes back on his knees or with a smile does not matter all that because it is only a STEP. Then we move onto the next step in the process where we start getting details and dealing with remorse.
> 
> The point is that when building a house you don't start worrying about the roof when you not even finished the foundation. Lets get him HOME then we look at the rest. Even once he is home as they go through the process of building a new marriage she may decide that she would rather move on. So NOTHING is set in stone.
> 
> Kimmy just let thus stuff go in the future it MAY and only MAY matter. But right now focus on what you are doing. You are getting great progress. Doing an awesome job. Showing tremendous live for him and your son. Just focus on that. How did the flirty text go? Do you know when he is coming over next!



You are so right...just got wrapped up when responding to posts...I have to focus on showing him I've changed...

Flirty texts are going well...sent 3 today...he responed very positively to all 3...

He is at Dr. Appt. now, finding out about results of his test last Saturday and said he will call after...

Don't know when he is coming over again, but, I know that I MIGHT go with him to the birthday party with him Saturday....


----------



## CEL

Go with him if at ALL possible. 

1. It is a couples date, which is great for you because it means he thinks if you as a couple.

2. It meets his top EN's. 

3. They are friends of yours and it will bring back all the good times.

4. It is a family event you do not want him to get used to doing stuff like that alone.

5. Gives you more time with him to show him what he is missing. 

6. The first time I can remember him inviting you to anything. This is an olive branch grab the damn branch. Lol

If you have to reschedule with the IC then I would do it but both are important.


----------



## CEL

turnera said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree. He is watching her and analyzing her. How she acts now, what she says, what she seems to be willing to forgive or not, will affect his decision. If she shows that she'll take him back no matter what, he loses respect for her and it puts her on his mental back burner; a fall back plan. IF she shows that she's been near mortally wounded and she'd have to see heavy heavy lifting from him before she'd consider letting him come home, his respect for her rises, her appeal rises, and his willingness to look at his own actions increases.


Fair enough thank you for your diplomatic response.


----------



## CEL

MissKiss said:


> This must be hurtful...but even if you don't want to think of yourself as the other woman, he has made you just that. He is openly in an official relationship with a new woman. He committed himself to this new relationship when he moved her in with him. So now she is his girlfriend in front of everyone while you have no status...wife, but not really wife, ex, but not really ex. He is sleeping with you behind his official partner's back. That makes it an affair with his legal wife as the other woman. I understand you wanti
> g him back, but you are stealing him from his girlfriend just like an ex spouse would be the AP in their spouse's new relationship. And that is not really ethic...although you are not legally divorced you are no longer officially together. So by doing that, you pretty much do what the other woman did. Busting up a relationship.
> I'm curious if someone asked him, who is he currently cheating on? Who would he say is the official partner, and who is he having an affair with...the situation is so twisted. I wish you luck, really. You need it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is such circular logic that it makes my mind spin. I like numbers to here are the actual facts without the reationalizations.

1. She is his wife. Until they get divorced that is her LEGAL title.

2. The OW would be considered the girlfriend that would be her LEGAL title.

3. To sleep with you wife is an acceptable behavior the world over.

4. To want your husband to sleep with you is an expression of love and passion.

5. Since wife trumps girlfriend I would say the girlfriend is trying to break up there relationship as well they are NOT divorced.

6. Where he is living really has no bearing he could be staying with a male friend if that was the case would your logic then say the male was trying to break them up?:scratchhead:

7. How can he be sleeping with his WIFE behind the girlfriends back. I mean who does not sleep with their wife when they stay over? Now he may be lying to her but that is hardly behind her back because it is so preposterous to believe that a husband does not sleep with his wife.

8. How is busting up an affair a bad thing? :scratchhead: He is still MARRIED the women is an affair partner.

I can kind of see where you are coming but you are distorting the facts to reach the conclusion you want to reach. The facts do not support you point.


----------



## CEL

Everafter2013 said:


> Based on what? Based on him moving in with a woman he barely knew? Based on him claiming to be “in a pickle” now because the AP living with him is “reality”? Based on him jumping into bed with Kimmy because she is offering him the “fantasy” now? And when he is back and Kimmy presents “reality” again (because oh…she may want to address his infidelity perhaps?), he goes looking for “fantasy” again?
> 
> If you see a man who makes decision slowly and on a very rational level, I see a man-child who is impulsive and just want a short cut.
> 
> The AP definitely deserves what is coming to her. For one, she herself should have known better than to “move planet” for a man she barely knew. Legally speaking they are not committing adultery because Kimmy is still his wife. But what about Kimmy’s soul while we cheer her because “all is fair in love and war”? We always tell a single AP that she deserves better than a cheating WS. Don’t we think Kimmy deserves better than this fence-sitting man? Doesn’t Kimmy think she deserves better? Is it not soul-crushing to her watching her WS leaves and goes home to the AP just because her name is on the marriage paper?
> 
> If Kimmy wants to win her husband back by any means necessary, so be it. But after all is said and done, her husband is still a cheater. He cheated on her with AP, and now he is cheating on the AP with her. He is still a person who can look into his partner’s eyes and tell a lie just to get what he wants (i.e. double dipping). Even the most skilful rug sweeper will want to at least ask questions. Reality will hit this man-child, and we know how he deals with reality and we know that he hasn’t learnt that his coping mechanism is unhealthy.



I am going to break this apart to address the points I have.



Everafter2013 said:


> Based on what? Based on him moving in with a woman he barely knew? Based on him claiming to be “in a pickle” now because the AP living with him is “reality”? Based on him jumping into bed with Kimmy because she is offering him the “fantasy” now? And when he is back and Kimmy presents “reality” again (because oh…she may want to address his infidelity perhaps?), he goes looking for “fantasy” again?


He did not barely know her they were friends before as they most probably met during his weekends at Rene Fair. So they may have known each other for years who knows they do have mutual friends. At the beginning he was shocked that she moved so quick to be with him and he was also dismayed, he has made the comment that it would of been better if she had not done that. LOL he did jump into bed with her instead the first time they had sex in 4 YEARS he cried after words and postponed the divorce, this is a pretty good indication that his WIFE was always plan A he just went with the girl because he thought his wife no longer loved him. The reality is that Kimmy along with him have NO desire to go back to the way it was they both agree that the old marriage is dead they are trying to decide if a new one is a good thing given all the baggage they both have now. As for him looking to cheat again this comes up over and over he could cheat on her but that is no different from any guy she gets. I have faith that when he comes back Kimmy is educated on what makes a marriage affair proof and will work toward that whether her husband decides to go along "I think he will" or not will be seen in the future.



Everafter2013 said:


> The AP definitely deserves what is coming to her. For one, she herself should have known better than to “move planet” for a man she barely knew. Legally speaking they are not committing adultery because Kimmy is still his wife. But what about Kimmy’s soul while we cheer her because “all is fair in love and war”? We always tell a single AP that she deserves better than a cheating WS. Don’t we think Kimmy deserves better than this fence-sitting man? Doesn’t Kimmy think she deserves better? Is it not soul-crushing to her watching her WS leaves and goes home to the AP just because her name is on the marriage paper?


No one deserves what is coming to them however I could care less about the AP I am not on her side. Interesting I have seen many WS on here that I would happily date and marry even given their past. I have found them to be attractive, smart, compassionate and accepting of the wrongs they have done would I say this about all WS? No but not all WS are the same and what you would toss aside I would happily accept and count myself lucky. Taste and acceptance are for each person to decide on their own I support anyone's choice on who they want to share their life with. Statements like she deserves better are great pick me ups on divorce threads but when the person is going for R they just derail the conversation as they have simply decided that the person who they are chasing is what they want.



Everafter2013 said:


> If Kimmy wants to win her husband back by any means necessary, so be it. But after all is said and done, her husband is still a cheater. He cheated on her with AP, and now he is cheating on the AP with her. He is still a person who can look into his partner’s eyes and tell a lie just to get what he wants (i.e. double dipping). Even the most skilful rug sweeper will want to at least ask questions. Reality will hit this man-child, and we know how he deals with reality and we know that he hasn’t learnt that his coping mechanism is unhealthy.


You don't know that he is lying you just suspect. Your entire argument is based on that if you take that away it falls down. Let me say this given that for 4 years he stayed in a sexless marriage and toughed it out. While begging her for sex or counseling and only after that did he decide to divorce her and start a new relationship I would say your questioning how he deals with reality is off base. I would not of stayed a year and yes I have been where he was. NO ONE is saying that he is not 100% responsible for his affair but we are also saying NOW is not the time to deal with the issue.


----------



## CEL

5Creed said:


> I think that most of us who have been in the middle of a separation and possibly headed to divorce have felt a little like you do now. I do want to say that it is very important for you to get your own lawyer. You are not being disloyal to him, or giving him any kind of ultimatum message; nor would it be the final straw if you hired one. What you are doing is protecting your child's future and yours. I have seen this happen with friends when one spouse convinces the other that only one lawyer is necessary; whether it be finances or whatever. It has never turned out well for the spouse that was not represented. So please hire one today! It does not mean that divorce is inevitable; but only that you are serious about your child's future.


This is already a done deal with all signatures being put on the paper work the only way to get this changed would be a major change in circumstance "death, job loss, illness".


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Go with him if at ALL possible.
> 
> 1. It is a couples date, which is great for you because it means he thinks if you as a couple.
> 
> 2. It meets his top EN's.
> 
> 3. They are friends of yours and it will bring back all the good times.
> 
> 4. It is a family event you do not want him to get used to doing stuff like that alone.
> 
> 5. Gives you more time with him to show him what he is missing.
> 
> 6. The first time I can remember him inviting you to anything. This is an olive branch grab the damn branch. Lol
> 
> If you have to reschedule with the IC then I would do it but both are important.


Well all those are true and awesome except #6: I invited myself and he said maybe and even stated that he wanted to take him alone...

He did go watch our son at swimming lessons today after work and said he can't come over tonight but, maybe tomorrow night? 


Over the weekend during a moment of weakness and when he was saying he had to go home and do laundry, I told him he could bring his laundry over here...:/...well, after swimming lessons, he said he could come over tomorrow night and bring his laundry since our housekeeper comes on Thursdays...I said of course! What do you think of that???????


----------



## GetTough

MissKiss said:


> This must be hurtful...but even if you don't want to think of yourself as the other woman, he has made you just that. He is openly in an official relationship with a new woman. He committed himself to this new relationship when he moved her in with him. So now she is his girlfriend in front of everyone while you have no status...wife, but not really wife, ex, but not really ex. He is sleeping with you behind his official partner's back. That makes it an affair with his legal wife as the other woman. I understand you wanti
> g him back, but you are stealing him from his girlfriend just like an ex spouse would be the AP in their spouse's new relationship. And that is not really ethic...although you are not legally divorced you are no longer officially together. So by doing that, you pretty much do what the other woman did. Busting up a relationship.
> I'm curious if someone asked him, who is he currently cheating on? Who would he say is the official partner, and who is he having an affair with...the situation is so twisted. I wish you luck, really. You need it
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So you're telling us a wife doesn't have a right to break up a relationship with OW? I think that's quite a stretch to say the least. Whether its wise or not is another question. But I think most people would view it as reasonable.


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Well all those are true and awesome except #6: I invited myself and he said maybe and even stated that he wanted to take him alone...
> 
> He did go watch our son at swimming lessons today after work and said he can't come over tonight but, maybe tomorrow night?
> 
> 
> Over the weekend during a moment of weakness and when he was saying he had to go home and do laundry, I told him he could bring his laundry over here...:/...well, after swimming lessons, he said he could come over tomorrow night and bring his laundry since our housekeeper comes on Thursdays...I said of course! What do you think of that???????


It is not a moment of weakness to try to take care of your HUSBAND, he is still the man you love, he is till the man you want, he is till the father of your child, he is still the man you want to sleep with. Yes the circumstances are crap and people will make the argument that you are enabling him to cake eat. But the fact of the matter is that his indecision is better than him being full steam ahead for divorce. Please take all the comments here with a grain of salt the fact is that we do not KNOW your husband his character is for you to understand if you trust him than that is all that matters. I personally think it is great any disconnect between them is good this takes time away from them and put the time on with you even if he is only stopping by he will come in and watch tv see you with your son. Plus this plays into his EN's meeting his EN's is the key to victory this is something SHE cannot do or really chooses not to do.

And really it is not YOU doing them it is offering him to bring them over and use the services of the housekeeper I think he pays for half right? The more that he comes over the better and I would politely invite myself to the gathering they are YOUR friends as well and it is YOUR son just tell him you want to go to see them as well and you think it would be fun. So if you spent last night with him at the swimming thing, you spent the weekend with him, and he is coming over tomorrow to spend time with you and drop off his laundry. He also has to come pick them up. So that is a HELL of a lot more time than you usually get and a lot more relationship like than just coming over twice a week. I would ask him to leave some at the house just in case he stays the night in the future. 

How did last night go? Where the I love you's said? Did he have a good time? Did YOU have a good time? How does your son deal with his dad being gone or when he leaves for a few days?


----------



## GetTough

5Creed said:


> I think that most of us who have been in the middle of a separation and possibly headed to divorce have felt a little like you do now. I do want to say that it is very important for you to get your own lawyer. You are not being disloyal to him, or giving him any kind of ultimatum message; nor would it be the final straw if you hired one. What you are doing is protecting your child's future and yours. I have seen this happen with friends when one spouse convinces the other that only one lawyer is necessary; whether it be finances or whatever. It has never turned out well for the spouse that was not represented. So please hire one today! It does not mean that divorce is inevitable; but only that you are serious about your child's future.


I agree. At the very *least* get some advice, even if you don't get representation. Lots of people are unaware that they can just have the lawyer advise while they represent themselves, that is much better than nothing if cash is an issue. Typically lawyers will go back and forth with procedural stuff, sometimes crazy stuff, which the judge mostly ignores. It's only the substance that really matters and judges have a LOT of cases to get through in limited time.


----------



## GetTough

turnera said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree. He is watching her and analyzing her. How she acts now, what she says, what she seems to be willing to forgive or not, will affect his decision. If she shows that she'll take him back no matter what, he loses respect for her and it puts her on his mental back burner; a fall back plan. IF she shows that she's been near mortally wounded and she'd have to see heavy heavy lifting from him before she'd consider letting him come home, his respect for her rises, her appeal rises, and his willingness to look at his own actions increases.


I see your point I just don't think she has that kind of leverage to make that happen, either from her own feelings or having him accept it. I think it's a no go on both counts. I do agree with you that her self respect is essential so she should not just accede to everything. There has to a re-balancing of power eventually.


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> Well all those are true and awesome except #6: I invited myself and he said maybe and even stated that he wanted to take him alone...
> 
> He did go watch our son at swimming lessons today after work and said he can't come over tonight but, maybe tomorrow night?
> 
> 
> Over the weekend during a moment of weakness and when he was saying he had to go home and do laundry, I told him he could bring his laundry over here...:/...well, after swimming lessons, he said he could come over tomorrow night and bring his laundry since our housekeeper comes on Thursdays...I said of course! What do you think of that???????


I would advise you to try to restrain from supplication, trying to buy him back with favors, being overly helpful. It will not help you to win him back. It will make him feel pressured and pity for your desperation. It is the antithesis to love because to love you he has to respect you. He will find that hard if you are offering him everything while he is sleeping with another woman.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> It is not a moment of weakness to try to take care of your HUSBAND, he is still the man you love, he is till the man you want, he is till the father of your child, he is still the man you want to sleep with. Yes the circumstances are crap and people will make the argument that you are enabling him to cake eat. But the fact of the matter is that his indecision is better than him being full steam ahead for divorce. Please take all the comments here with a grain of salt the fact is that we do not KNOW your husband his character is for you to understand if you trust him than that is all that matters. I personally think it is great any disconnect between them is good this takes time away from them and put the time on with you even if he is only stopping by he will come in and watch tv see you with your son. Plus this plays into his EN's meeting his EN's is the key to victory this is something SHE cannot do or really chooses not to do.
> 
> And really it is not YOU doing them it is offering him to bring them over and use the services of the housekeeper I think he pays for half right? The more that he comes over the better and I would politely invite myself to the gathering they are YOUR friends as well and it is YOUR son just tell him you want to go to see them as well and you think it would be fun. So if you spent last night with him at the swimming thing, you spent the weekend with him, and he is coming over tomorrow to spend time with you and drop off his laundry. He also has to come pick them up. So that is a HELL of a lot more time than you usually get and a lot more relationship like than just coming over twice a week. I would ask him to leave some at the house just in case he stays the night in the future.
> 
> How did last night go? Where the I love you's said? Did he have a good time? Did YOU have a good time? How does your son deal with his dad being gone or when he leaves for a few days?



Yes, it will fulfill the EN of Domestic Support! I totally forgot that!!!!!!!!

Yes, it will be the housekeeper AND THAT'S ACTUALLY THE ONE THING HE IS NO LONGER paying half of anymore...but, it is fulfilling an EN and thank you so much for pointing that out! 

Yes, I am going to ask him to leave some clothes behind for when he really wants to stay and didn't bring clothes...good idea!!!

Last night was great! He had dinner and was very thankful and said it was so good. While we were eating he said, as he has been saying A LOT of times since he moved out that he HAS NOT COOKED AT ALL. Cooking for him is his fun and his creativity...outside cooking and inside cooking...I think he was trying to share that he is depressed and sad...trying to let me know how bad a state he is in over all this...cooking used to be his passion. 

Well, we both had a good time (this is when we spoke about our couple friends) and when he was saying he was leaving, he ended up checking the DVR and we ended up watching the only 2 episodes left of Big Bang and laughing a lot which was so good...so, he left later than usual.

So, I have seen him Saturday starting at 3:30, Sunday until 4:30 PM, Monday at lessons and here until about 10:15 AND EVEN today since he came by to watch swimming lessons again today and said he couldn't come over after but, will tomorrow which is when he will bring the laundry. I plan on making something good for dinner, too...

Tomorrow night, I will work on getting him to let me come with him to the party Saturday...still don't know what time that is gonna be...hopefully, I will be able to go to IC or reschedule if I know the party time by Friday...

Our son is being incredibly strong and we have both talked about how well he is handling this...he does get sad when Daddy leaves but, is so happy every time he comes over...we just keep telling him how much we love him...every time he says he misses Daddy when he is not here, I say that I miss Daddy, too, cuz that is the truth. I remind him that these are grown up problems and that we both love him very much.

Thank you so much for your support and guidance as always...keeping hope alive and still taking it day by day...


----------



## CEL

GetTough said:


> I would advise you to try to restrain from supplication, trying to buy him back with favors, being overly helpful. It will not help you to win him back. It will make him feel pressured and pity for your desperation. It is the antithesis to love because to love you he has to respect you. He will find that hard if you are offering him everything while he is sleeping with another woman.


I love your signature quote by the way. And it is my rebuttal to your supplication comment. That which is soft can be incredibly strong, sometimes by giving in to things that action gives us the power to control and direct. Her helping him with his laundry neatly gives her the opportunity to take away one of his excuses for not staying over more often as well as drives a wedge in the OW relationship. Again her doing the RIGHT thing in showing love and support for her husband allows her to control part of this dynamic that she has previously not been able to.


----------



## turnera

Yes, but you have to be careful not to let it bleed over into desperation. It's a thin line, and I've felt it teetered on the edge at times. If he gets in the middle of two women fighting over him, he'll have no reason to budge. There are ways to show strength without giving over to the desperation.


----------



## GetTough

CEL said:


> I love your signature quote by the way. And it is my rebuttal to your supplication comment. That which is soft can be incredibly strong, sometimes by giving in to things that action gives us the power to control and direct. Her helping him with his laundry neatly gives her the opportunity to take away one of his excuses for not staying over more often as well as drives a wedge in the OW relationship. Again her doing the RIGHT thing in showing love and support for her husband allows her to control part of this dynamic that she has previously not been able to.


I understand what you're saying and I respect your pov. My position is that by being so extremely helpful she is not doing justice to herself. I believe she has to question this act because she knows in her heart every time she offers him something purely to win him back it chips away a little more at her dignity and her self-esteem. She's not even doing justice to him because she's not being herself and he's aware of that. It's going to make it harder for him to believe things can continue this way. It's TOO perfect. Re: acceptance. Consider the analogy of nurturing a seed. This is more than planting the seed and watering it occasionally which would be optimum love. I feel she is watering it too much.


----------



## CEL

turnera said:


> Yes, but you have to be careful not to let it bleed over into desperation. It's a thin line, and I've felt it teetered on the edge at times. If he gets in the middle of two women fighting over him, he'll have no reason to budge. There are ways to show strength without giving over to the desperation.


:iagree:

Ultimately he will have to choose as the divorce is set for some time in August I look at that as the game changer.


----------



## CEL

GetTough said:


> I understand what you're saying and I respect your pov. My position is that by being so extremely helpful she is not doing justice to herself. I believe she has to question this act because she knows in her heart every time she offers him something purely to win him back it chips away a little more at her dignity and her self-esteem. She's not even doing justice to him because she's not being herself and he's aware of that. It's going to make it harder for him to believe things can continue this way. It's TOO perfect. Re: acceptance. This is more than planting the seed and watering it occasionally. She is poking the soil too.



I agree with you to get someone back you should not do things you would not normally do as it gives them a false sense of what the relationship will be. But is she doing that?

1. She is having sex with him.

2. She is cooking him dinner

3. She is doing his laundry or her house keeper is actually but still.

4. She spends time with him.

5. They have shared the holiday.

6. They have intimate conversation.

7. They share recreational companionship.


I think you point is that she should cease or cut back on these activities while he is still entangled with the other women, yes? She is just refusing to let that relationship stop HER relationship with him. Now if SHE felt that this was demeaning or eroding her self respect then I would say that yes she should stop. So far I have only seen her happy to be there for him and to meet his EN's. I have never recommended anyone to sell their soul to get someone back or to do things they did not WANT to do. I may ask them to broaden some ideas but only if they are open to them and those ideas can become habits if they want. I really do love your quote and you are making great points I may disagree but I always welcome intelligent dialogue. :smthumbup:


----------



## CEL

Everafter2013 said:


> Oh I am sorry then. I did not know that he might have been cheating on her for years. I am not sure how that makes him a “better” wayward spouse though.
> 
> I believe that many FORMER WS here are smart, compassionate, attractive, etc. But I really don’t think you would date any WS while they were having an affair. I’m pretty sure that you would consider them “dating material” AFTER they realize where they went wrong. This particular man, is actively having an affair, whether he is cheating on Kimmy with his girlfriend, or on his girlfriend with Kimmy, it’s semantic.
> 
> You do know that legally you cannot have a girlfriend and a wife at the same time, don’t you? Some cultures, you can have more than two wives legally. But I haven’t heard of any culture where it is legal to have a wife and a girlfriend at the same time
> 
> What I don’t understand, why you are letting him off the hook for lying and cheating, and instead focusing on Kimmy’s fault for rejecting him for years? Just get him home now, she can deal with it later? Isn’t that ‘false pretense’? I won’t blame him if he feels tricked when Kimmy refuses to rug sweep his infidelity later on. You say that he is 100% to blame for his infidelity, so sooner or later Kimmy may want to address that. Promising him (or implying to him) that it will be unicorn and rainbow as long as he postpones the divorce and goes home is disingenuous.
> 
> Plus, this short term solution of sexing the WS NOW that he is out of the door with his girlfriend…not only it appears insincere, but it doesn’t really solve her problems. Okay, she had an epiphany on mother’s day. But what exactly stopped her before? Has she work on the old intimacy issues? What about his parts in the problem? Or again…are you suggesting it was all her faults? What has she done to ensure it won’t happen again?
> 
> She should make changes…for herself, not for someone else or to make someone else decides in her favor.
> 
> I think manipulation does not work. Again, I reiterate, we all agree this is why most affairs do not work. Spin it however you like, but this is exactly the “fantasy la la land” an OW would offer to WS.
> 
> But if it does…hey, beats me.
> 
> I agree that she is strong. It takes a certain kind of resilience and strength to let her emotional wellbeing depends on whether he comes around or not.
> 
> But I’m not sure this is the right thing. She could have worked on her intimacy issues, told her WS how she loves him and will give her 100% into fixing their problems, what steps she has taken to ensure it won’t happen again, where she thinks he fell short and what she expects from him in the future…but in no uncertain term that she will accept, tolerate and enable him having a girlfriend while married to her. And leave it at that. That way she can preserve her self-respect while restating her commitment to work on their issues and show him that cheating is not okay. What is happening now, the guy knows if Kimmy starts slipping again, all he has to do is threaten to leave her and get himself a brand new girlfriend. If that is the new marriage that Kimmy wants, again…so be it.
> 
> I am bowing out again. I felt like watching someone blind about to fall off a cliff, I just could not help myself


Thank you for the post it was well written.



Everafter2013 said:


> Oh I am sorry then. I did not know that he might have been cheating on her for years. I am not sure how that makes him a “better” wayward spouse though.
> 
> I believe that many FORMER WS here are smart, compassionate, attractive, etc. But I really don’t think you would date any WS while they were having an affair. I’m pretty sure that you would consider them “dating material” AFTER they realize where they went wrong. This particular man, is actively having an affair, whether he is cheating on Kimmy with his girlfriend, or on his girlfriend with Kimmy, it’s semantic.


Your right I would only date them after they had realized their mistake. But that potential to see their mistake is there for all wayward spouses is it not? It is only up to them to decide on whether they can realize that potential. Yes this man is actively having an affair nothing I have said minimizes that and yes he is cheating on his wife by being with the GF.



Everafter2013 said:


> You do know that legally you cannot have a girlfriend and a wife at the same time, don’t you? Some cultures, you can have more than two wives legally. But I haven’t heard of any culture where it is legal to have a wife and a girlfriend at the same time


Yes you can, girlfriend is not a legal term. I can be married and have dozens of girlfriends some may be friends others may just be sex buddies. 



Everafter2013 said:


> What I don’t understand, why you are letting him off the hook for lying and cheating, and instead focusing on Kimmy’s fault for rejecting him for years? Just get him home now, she can deal with it later? Isn’t that ‘false pretense’? I won’t blame him if he feels tricked when Kimmy refuses to rug sweep his infidelity later on. You say that he is 100% to blame for his infidelity, so sooner or later Kimmy may want to address that. Promising him (or implying to him) that it will be unicorn and rainbow as long as he postpones the divorce and goes home is disingenuous.


How would you like me or Kimmy to punish him? You want her to beat him or maybe she should just refuse to see him because that would make him want to come back? In my past posts and in Kimmy's they have talked about the OW and how much it hurts Kimmy I have always advocated that she be honest in how much pain this causes her. That she not try to shield him from the consequences to his actions. She is by no means rug sweeping she is not pretending he is not seeing another women. She is choosing to explore the option of a NEW marriage with him.



Everafter2013 said:


> Plus, this short term solution of sexing the WS NOW that he is out of the door with his girlfriend…not only it appears insincere, but it doesn’t really solve her problems. Okay, she had an epiphany on mother’s day. But what exactly stopped her before? Has she work on the old intimacy issues? What about his parts in the problem? Or again…are you suggesting it was all her faults? What has she done to ensure it won’t happen again?
> 
> She should make changes…for herself, not for someone else or to make someone else decides in her favor.


LOL have you read the entire thread? She has made strides in finding out why she did what she did. You may have missed it but she has read many of the threads over in the sex in marriage part and is seeing an IC. Do you have any other recommendations for how she could explore this issue more? She is taking steps to make sure it does not happen again and is educating herself so that ANY future relationships she has will be healthy for HER.



Everafter2013 said:


> I think manipulation does not work. Again, I reiterate, we all agree this is why most affairs do not work. Spin it however you like, but this is exactly the “fantasy la la land” an OW would offer to WS.
> 
> But if it does…hey, beats me.
> 
> I agree that she is strong. It takes a certain kind of resilience and strength to let her emotional wellbeing depends on whether he comes around or not.


You talk manipulation and spin. I talk healthy habits to have in ANY relationship she goes into whether with him or someone else. You say she is creating a fantasy land, I don't see any fantasy land I see steps that wives take in many healthy relationships the world over. Sex, dinner, laundry, taking care of kids, flirty texts "these are not sexting" all these are good behaviors and none of them is out of the ordinary in really any healthy relationship.



Everafter2013 said:


> But I’m not sure this is the right thing. She could have worked on her intimacy issues, told her WS how she loves him and will give her 100% into fixing their problems, what steps she has taken to ensure it won’t happen again, where she thinks he fell short and what she expects from him in the future…but in no uncertain term that she will accept, tolerate and enable him having a girlfriend while married to her. And leave it at that. That way she can preserve her self-respect while restating her commitment to work on their issues and show him that cheating is not okay. What is happening now, the guy knows if Kimmy starts slipping again, all he has to do is threaten to leave her and get himself a brand new girlfriend. If that is the new marriage that Kimmy wants, again…so be it.
> 
> I am bowing out again. I felt like watching someone blind about to fall off a cliff, I just could not help myself


You don't have to be sure it is the right thing that is all her, she is the driver she can take what she wants and ditch the rest. Chose whatever path or action SHE thinks will make her happy. Your course of action is that she work on her intimacy issue "being done already", tell her WS she loves him "she has in the past 4 years but without SF he did not believe her and why should he", take steps to make sure it does not happen again "like what reading books perhaps and IC", inform him of his faults, make demands on what he would need to do to get her back "when he filled for divorce" and then judge him harshly for putting through divorce papers and moving on. Most of what you recommend is words that means precious little after 4 YEARS of actions on her part. I would not believe her either. And she started having sex with him BEFORE she came here. Why? Because she wanted to have sex with her husband. Her declaration of commitment with no actions behind it would be hollow and easily brushed aside.

Right now she has shown actions that he will come back to a NEW marriage. She has shown him that she UNDERSTANDS the pain that went on for 4 years. She has shown him with actions not words that she loves him. She has shown him with actions not words what a NEW marriage would be like.

He is not going to think he can just get a new girl when things are slipping this is exaggerated out of proportion to try to make your point. He went 4 YEARS before moving on then he did it with one of his FRIENDS not some random girl. This is a man who takes his time, his filling for divorce was because he finally found someone who he thought loved him after having his self esteem ripped apart for 4 years. This is not a player this is a guy who wants to settle down with a women who takes care of his EN's. 

There seems to be a common thread here of her losing her self respect by doing these things for him or treating him this way. Let me be honest her self respect is her's she can stop this at any time and if she feels this is damaging her I am 100% behind her stopping. I will not make assumptions on this fact instead I leave that to her as these are HER feelings. Gandhi picked up filth in the gutters when people asked him if he found it was shameful or demeaning he said that all work was prayer that helping others was never shameful or demeaning. The point is that I do things that others may look at as bad for my self respect but I have no problems with it because my self respect is different then theirs. I find nothing in fighting for your husband, fighting for your love, fighting for your marriage, fighting for your son to be anti self respect. I will say this again if she feels these actions are harming her self respect she should stop. 

Now is this the new marriage she wants? NO she wants her husband back here is the deal to get a NEW marriage it takes two people. Until he comes back NOTHING about a new marriage matters. However the books, IC and soul searching she has done will make her better able to handle and have good relationships in the future oh they will also help her heal.


----------



## Affaircare

{small threadjack for Everafter}

Everafter~

Your post brings to light a very important issue that many people never quite "get to" when their spouse commits adultery...and yet in order to have a healthy reconciliation it has to be understood somewhere along the line. In a summary, it's this:

Kimmy is here. Her Hubby is not (at this time).

Now we don't really know what Kimmy was like during the years prior to her husband's affair. As much as we may believe that SHE believes her side and her point of view, it's not as if "that's fact"--we have no way to determine the truth. Likewise we don't know what her husband was like. His point of view may well be extremely different from hers--it's often that way. AND both may believe their view is "the truth" and the other person's view is "a lie." And so at least *I* go into every story listening with a grain of salt because it's our nature to make ourselves look good and the "other guy" look bad. 

So #1 I do know that I do not know the full truth. 

Next, we could list up one side and down the other all of Kimmy's husband's issues. Maybe he's Narcissistic. Maybe he's needy. Maybe he has a warped view of what Love is. We could assume her side is 100% true and crucify him. We could assume she's a saint and he's an a$$. We could decide he deserves to be punished....

...and what good would all that do? None!

That's because the only person ANY of us can change is ourselves!!!!!!!!! Kimmy can not change her husband, or make him do things or think a certain way or feel a certain way. If we could do that, wouldn't we all just tell loyal spouses "Okay here are the magic words. Say them three times while standing on your head and they'll love you again." THE END. But the fact is that he is an individual just as much as she is. He will have to deal with his issues and what he did (and what he is actively still doing right now). 

SHE has to deal with her own issues and what she did. 

So do we think it sucks that he's still living with the other woman? HECK YES! Is he here asking us for help? HECK NO. Is Kimmy? Yes. Is she living with the other woman? No. What IS she doing? Well....for four years prior she was shut off to her husband, so for her to deal with her issues, she has to learn how to be open, how to share fun with him, how to be vulnerable, how to meet his needs, how to express her needs in a healthy way, etc. She also has to deal with her issues by going to her own counseling and figuring out WHY she shut him how and learn how to think and act differently. 

She can only do HER SIDE. 

Now, she may work and work and be the best Kimmy she can be, meet his needs, open up to him...and that's her choice, to face herself and work on herself. Her husband may choose to avoid and deny and be the worst man he can be, refuse to meed her needs, and close down to her...that's his choice to make. That in no way negates that Kimmy has to face herself nor would it negate her obligation to herself to be a better woman. 

*BUT* (and here's the big but) if she chooses to work on herself and become a better woman, it is conceivable and at least a possibility that he may also choose to work on himself and become a better man. In fact, if he sees that SHE can do it, he may be encouraged to be brave himself and think "If she can do it, so can I!!" 

So no, we are not focusing on what Kimmy did and blaming her for her husband's choices. The fact is, if he did decide to come home, in order for the marriage to survive and thrive, he'd have some pretty serious work to do repairing the damage his adultery has done. But he has hope that it may be "fixable" if he sees that his spouse also sees her own issues and is addressing them, and not raging at him or blaming him for her actions over the years. 

Does this make sense? We can not focus on "what he should do" because he's not here. We can not tell her "He should be doing this or that" because he's not here. She is. And she needs to be showing him with her actions that she is no longer the same shut-off, closed up, defensive woman AND that she takes her issues seriously enough to continue working. Our hope is that he will then pick up HIS side of things, and being showing her that he is also no longer the unfaithful, blameshifting type and take his issues seriously enough to keep working at them.

{/threadjack}


----------



## Affaircare

Kimmy~

I have a small suggestion for you that I want to ask if you would toss it around in your head a bit before you say "Oh that's not what I do" or "No no I don't do that." 

I have noticed in a few of your posts that there is a little thing you're doing that may well lead to a "Love Extinguisher" kind of thing rather than a "Love Kindler." Namely, he will say "I can't stay over night" or "I can't cook" and rather than hearing and understanding him, and demonstrating to him that he is HEARD, you'll sort of not hear his "no" and ask him again. 

So let me ask you this. You and I are friends, right? I care about you and like you and want the best for you. You think highly of me. And you come to my house for coffee and we are having a great time...but come 7pm you say "Oh I need to get home--my Dear Hubby is waiting for me to have some time with him." 

If I say 'Oh no! Do you really have to go? I don't want you to!" ... do you feel like I heard what you really want and acknowledged your reality? I would feel like you were trying to pressure me to stay and not like it very much--and I'd feel like my needs were ignored for yours. 

On the other hand, if I said "Oh boy it sounds like getting home to your Dear Hubby is really important to you. I have to admit I hate to see you go because I enjoy your company so much, but you know what? I can sure see how you'd feel that way. I'd want to get home to spend time with my spouse too!! Can I walk you to your car to say goodbye?" 

See how I sort of repeated what you said in my own words...to be sure I understood you? And see how I told you how I feel but also that I understand your feelings? And can you see how I told you that the way you feel is reasonable (I'd feel that way too!). It lets you choose what you want to do---and it shares where I'm at--and it acknowledges your reality and that what you want is important to me. You want to go; I want you to stay...but you get to choose for YOU.

Sooooo...next time he says "I need to go" try acknowledging his reality and that he is free to choose for him. Does that make sense? 

And when he says he doesn't want you to come to the birthday party, don't try to force your way into being invited. That puts him in the position of having said "no" and you didn't listen! You forced him to do it your way! NOPE--instead, tell him "I hear what you said. You said no and I'm going to acknowledge your choice. I personally feel XXX but I'm glad you shared your decision with me and I'll honor that. If you want me to come, please feel free to change your mind but until I hear otherwise, I hear your no and honor it."

Okay?? 

That is part of what he's testing, I think, to see if you really are different: "Can I say 'No' and she'll hear me?"


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## Affaircare




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## kimmycat

Affaircare said:


> Kimmy~
> 
> I have a small suggestion for you that I want to ask if you would toss it around in your head a bit before you say "Oh that's not what I do" or "No no I don't do that."
> 
> I have noticed in a few of your posts that there is a little thing you're doing that may well lead to a "Love Extinguisher" kind of thing rather than a "Love Kindler." Namely, he will say "I can't stay over night" or "I can't cook" and rather than hearing and understanding him, and demonstrating to him that he is HEARD, you'll sort of not hear his "no" and ask him again.
> 
> So let me ask you this. You and I are friends, right? I care about you and like you and want the best for you. You think highly of me. And you come to my house for coffee and we are having a great time...but come 7pm you say "Oh I need to get home--my Dear Hubby is waiting for me to have some time with him."
> 
> If I say 'Oh no! Do you really have to go? I don't want you to!" ... do you feel like I heard what you really want and acknowledged your reality? I would feel like you were trying to pressure me to stay and not like it very much--and I'd feel like my needs were ignored for yours.
> 
> On the other hand, if I said "Oh boy it sounds like getting home to your Dear Hubby is really important to you. I have to admit I hate to see you go because I enjoy your company so much, but you know what? I can sure see how you'd feel that way. I'd want to get home to spend time with my spouse too!! Can I walk you to your car to say goodbye?"
> 
> See how I sort of repeated what you said in my own words...to be sure I understood you? And see how I told you how I feel but also that I understand your feelings? And can you see how I told you that the way you feel is reasonable (I'd feel that way too!). It lets you choose what you want to do---and it shares where I'm at--and it acknowledges your reality and that what you want is important to me. You want to go; I want you to stay...but you get to choose for YOU.
> 
> Sooooo...next time he says "I need to go" try acknowledging his reality and that he is free to choose for him. Does that make sense?
> 
> And when he says he doesn't want you to come to the birthday party, don't try to force your way into being invited. That puts him in the position of having said "no" and you didn't listen! You forced him to do it your way! NOPE--instead, tell him "I hear what you said. You said no and I'm going to acknowledge your choice. I personally feel XXX but I'm glad you shared your decision with me and I'll honor that. If you want me to come, please feel free to change your mind but until I hear otherwise, I hear your no and honor it."
> 
> Okay??
> 
> That is part of what he's testing, I think, to see if you really are different: "Can I say 'No' and she'll hear me?"



I will try this. Tomorrow, when he comes over, I will bring up the party. I will let him know that I understand that he wants to take our son alone. I will remind him that I would like to go and tell him I respect his decision and that if he changes his mind to let me know.

I totally understand where you are coming from and I don't want him to feel pressured. Especially, because he has said many times that, in the past, it always had to be my way and he wants a marriage that is 50/50. I do want to show him that I understand this and I will respect his point of view and his way from now on.

Thank you so much for your 2 posts...I truly am working on this so hard...working on myself so that I can show him that I love him, I am sorry for the past 4 years of withholding sex and being defensive and closed off emotionally to him...I just hope that it is not too late. I really want another chance and really want us both to work on our marriage.

I do not know how long I can wait while he sits on the fence between coming home and living with the OW.

Unfortunately, he is also going through some medical issues that started just 2 weeks ago. Today, he was given the news that he has been diagnosed with a multi-nodal goiter after going to the doctor for a huge lump (and it is very huge). at the base of his neck. (Due to the 4th of July holiday, he had to wait longer for results.). He thought it was from stress! His doctor is now sending him for a biopsy (our biggest fear) and another test where they put a radioactive isotope in his veins to look closer at the nodules. SO, he is now going through this stress and I don't think he has the emotional strength to choose what do do with his personal life right now. I am trying to be there for him for that, too...and I know that this health issue has him very, very worried abut his own mortality. I've rather 4th of July and the weekend, we thought that the DR. didn't want to see him the day before the 4th cuz it wasn't serious...but, it may BE SERIOUS...

So, now, I am just praying that he is going to be okay...I just want him to be okay...I wish our marriage was not in shambles so, he could be here so I could take care of him now that he really needs me and his family by him...


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## CEL

Kimmy just be there for him. He will see your love, take care of him. No matter what has happened you still love him let him know you are there for him in his time of need. It is the right thing to do and will show him you live him. Marriage should be about people taking care of each other and this is one of the reasons we marry to have that person there when the chips are down. I am sure he does appreciate you being there for him,

I am sorry for his illness I hope that this time helps him realize those that really love you will stick by you through thick and thin. I think you have a lot to offer and I hope he sees this.


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## turnera

kimmycat said:


> I will try this. Tomorrow, when he comes over, I will bring up the party. I will let him know that I understand that he wants to take our son alone. I will remind him that I would like to go and tell him I respect his decision and that if he changes his mind to let me know.


I know you're just here talking and laying yourself bare and you may not actually speak to him the way you write it here, but the way you write this still reeks of demand. Not as in an actual demand, but in a 'well, this is what *I* want, but I understand if you don't want to do it, but if you _really_ won't invite me, I'll respect your decision, but I'm letting you know *I* think it stinks' way. Do you see what I mean? In other words, it's all in the delivery. It can be 'no I want you to stay here not go home to your husband' or it can be 'honey, I get it that you're uncomfortable, so I'll let you decide.' He'll recoil from the former and be drawn toward the latter.


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## turnera

> What I read so far, she has an epiphany AFTER he told her he was moving out. Let’s assume that the girlfriend was not even in the picture. Let’s assume that he was just leaving her because he couldn’t be in a sexless marriage anymore. If I were her husband I would not turn down the sex (shoot, he had gone without for four years!) but I would be very suspect of her reason why.


This is important to remember. Four years and then, suddenly when he quits, she sees the light? It's understandable he won't believe she's doing anything other than what she previously did - look after her OWN needs and wants. What would change his mind? Longterm, non-desperate action on her part. Integrity. Honesty. Owning her own mistakes. Explaining her mistakes so he can see she's thought about it and sees a lot of this is on her. Humility.

Yes, he has to own the affair. But she has to show sustained enlightenment and change for him to be willing to give up what he left her for.


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## Aerith

Kimmy,

I really hope that there is nothing serious with your husband and whatever the issue, it is easily curable...

Health is a priority at the moment - please stay calm and strong for him...

Again, I hope there is nothing serious and he will recover quickly...


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## Openminded

I had two-thirds of my thyroid removed many years ago. I had a fair-sized lump that was determined by a radioactive iodine uptake scan to be a "cold" nodule. I then had thyroid surgery and the biopsy that was done after surgery was negative. So take a deep breath and try to relax. I know it's difficult but everything will be fine. Thyroid issues are among the easiest to deal with.


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## kimmycat

turnera said:


> I know you're just here talking and laying yourself bare and you may not actually speak to him the way you write it here, but the way you write this still reeks of demand. Not as in an actual demand, but in a 'well, this is what *I* want, but I understand if you don't want to do it, but if you _really_ won't invite me, I'll respect your decision, but I'm letting you know *I* think it stinks' way. Do you see what I mean? In other words, it's all in the delivery. It can be 'no I want you to stay here not go home to your husband' or it can be 'honey, I get it that you're uncomfortable, so I'll let you decide.' He'll recoil from the former and be drawn toward the latter.


Yes, making demands is something I am working on...thank you...I will try this...


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## kimmycat

turnera said:


> This is important to remember. Four years and then, suddenly when he quits, she sees the light? It's understandable he won't believe she's doing anything other than what she previously did - look after her OWN needs and wants. What would change his mind? Longterm, non-desperate action on her part. Integrity. Honesty. Owning her own mistakes. Explaining her mistakes so he can see she's thought about it and sees a lot of this is on her. Humility.
> 
> Yes, he has to own the affair. But she has to show sustained enlightenment and change for him to be willing to give up what he left her for.


Yep...I am trying this so hard...thinking through my mistakes all day, everyday...sooooo true....I am so wanting him to see that I have changed for good and I know that I have lost the best thing that ever happened to me and I didn't appreciate him until I lost him...time and patience and hope and soul searching and counseling...


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## kimmycat

Aerith said:


> Kimmy,
> 
> I really hope that there is nothing serious with your husband and whatever the issue, it is easily curable...
> 
> Health is a priority at the moment - please stay calm and strong for him...
> 
> Again, I hope there is nothing serious and he will recover quickly...


Thank you...


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## kimmycat

Openminded said:


> I had two-thirds of my thyroid removed many years ago. I had a fair-sized lump that was determined by a radioactive iodine uptake scan to be a "cold" nodule. I then had thyroid surgery and the biopsy that was done after surgery was negative. So take a deep breath and try to relax. I know it's difficult but everything will be fine. Thyroid issues are among the easiest to deal with.



Thank you...have been googling like crazy...taking a deep breath and trying to relax...


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## Openminded

kimmycat said:


> Thank you...have been googling like crazy...taking a deep breath and trying to relax...


I know. It's hard. But always think positive. I felt it was just something that needed to be removed so I could get on with my life and that's what happened. My scar has faded to nothing. 

I know three others just like me who went through thyroid surgery because of cold nodules and all had great outcomes. If it comes to that, he will too. I'm sure of it.


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## CEL

Open would you mind going into more detail you don't have to of course but I think it would be helpful for Kimmy.

1. How were you diagnosed?

2. Is cold the same as toxic?

3. How long was the surgery? Did you have to stay at the hospital overnight?

4. How was recovery did it take you a long time, was there a lot of pain?


I just know if I was in Kimmy's spot these would be my questions again you don't have to answer if it makes you uncomfortable but I know she would appreciate it.


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## kimmycat

H went to swimming lessons today and then, came over. It wasn't that good of a night. Everything felt awkward.

So, before he was going to leave, we went out on the patio to talk and he said that he can't come over Saturday, maybe Friday instead and then, he could take Nicholas to the party. He said he doesn't want me to go because whey know our situation and it would be awkward. I told him I understand and I'll got to my IC appointment.

Well, then he started saying how he is being divided and the OW got a sour deal and he hasn't even been able to give her a chance and that he isn't gonna be able to spend the night anymore.

He said that he already told me that things are not good over there and if he came running back everything would be the same. He feels convinced that all would go back to me being shut down. He was saying all the things that I would say like you see, it's your fault, you make me shutdown...he said it would happen in 4 mos or 4 years he's not sure but he would not be able to handle it...especially now with his medical issues.

I was lost and just said I am going to keep working on myself and those issues. He said our son has it better like this...he thinks that he will adjust to this and it will all be okay.

I just feel like breaking down but I can't because I have my son...I just am crushed...he said he has to think of these things to protect himself.

Now, I just don't know what to do.........


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## kimmycat

He also said that the divorce date is coming up in August again and they can't push it back again and it cost him a lot of money.

It seems like everything is back to square one or worse...


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## Openminded

CEL said:


> Open would you mind going into more detail you don't have to of course but I think it would be helpful for Kimmy.
> 
> 1. How were you diagnosed?
> 
> 2. Is cold the same as toxic?
> 
> 3. How long was the surgery? Did you have to stay at the hospital overnight?
> 
> 4. How was recovery did it take you a long time, was there a lot of pain?
> 
> 
> I just know if I was in Kimmy's spot these would be my questions again you don't have to answer if it makes you uncomfortable but I know she would appreciate it.


I noticed a lump (a fair-sized one) on my neck. It seemed to come out of nowhere. I had it looked at and the uptake scan was ordered. Cold nodules are the toxic ones (although only about 10%, I believe, are really a problem). I had surgery and the biopsy was negative so no follow-up was needed. I was uncomfortable from being intubated, since they scratched my throat, but no real pain (I do have a high tolerance for pain). I had a pretty wide scar but it has faded away (surgery was many years ago).

I take thyroid replacement and I don't feel completely the same energy-wise as I did before the surgery. I also have more trouble dealing with heat, especially, than I used to.

I was in the hospital for several days (they did that sort of thing then but I'm not sure about now) and couldn't go back to work for a week, I think -- because of my body adjusting to my thyroid level or something.

All in all, for something that significant, it wasn't difficult.

ETA: My surgery was around 4 hours, I believe. They are very careful of the parathyroid glands that are there. Plus, I'm a bleeder and there was that issue to deal with that most people having that surgery don't have so I'm not sure what a "normal" amount of time for surgery would be.


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## kimmycat

Openminded said:


> I noticed a lump (a fair-sized one) on my neck. It seemed to come out of nowhere. I had it looked at and the uptake scan was ordered. Cold nodules are the toxic ones (although only about 10%, I believe, are really a problem). I had surgery and the biopsy was negative so no follow-up was needed. I was uncomfortable from being intubated, since they scratched my throat, but no real pain (I do have a high tolerance for pain). I had a pretty wide scar but it has faded away (surgery was many years ago).
> 
> I take thyroid replacement and I don't feel completely the same energy-wise as I did before the surgery. I also have more trouble dealing with heat, especially, than I used to.
> 
> I was in the hospital for several days (they did that sort of thing then but I'm not sure about now) and couldn't go back to work for a week, I think -- because of my body adjusting to my thyroid level or something.
> 
> All in all, for something that significant, it wasn't difficult.
> 
> ETA: My surgery was around 4 hours, I believe. They are very careful of the parathyroid glands that are there. Plus, I'm a bleeder and there was that issue to deal with that most people having that surgery don't have so I'm not sure what a "normal" amount of time for surgery would be.



Thank you so much for these answers. My H's lump on his neck is very significant, too, and also seemed to come out of nowhere he is still needing more tests to see if they are hot or cold...I think, cold since his blood tests came out normal...hoping and praying...


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## Openminded

kimmycat said:


> Thank you so much for these answers. My H's lump on his neck is very significant, too, and also seemed to come out of nowhere he is still needing more tests to see if they are hot or cold...I think, cold since his blood tests came out normal...hoping and praying...


I know it's scary. But only a small percentage, maybe one of ten, of cold nodules is a real issue. And even then, thyroid issues are one of the easiest to deal with and have the best results.

I'll be keeping both of you in my thoughts and prayers.


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## CEL

Okay Kimmy before I start taking this apart I am going to say I am so sorry you had a bad night. If I could come and beat some sense into him I would. Since I can't hug you I will just give you the straight facts. You still have your health. You still have your job. You still have a wonderful son. You still have your friends "including all of us". Let me tell you this what happened does not change where you are at. The byproduct of your actions was that you can probably get him back the real benefit of what you are doing is for YOURSELF. Do not forget this. The books, the IC the soul searching is for YOU to grow from all this and be a better and healthier you. Kind of like going to a gym you might meet friends or lovers there but the real reason you are going is to be healthy. So you are not at square one you are miles beyond square one don't ever look at the progress you have made and discount all the work you have put into YOURSELF. This thread and all the work you are doing is ALL about you it only has the byproduct of getting him back. Okay?



kimmycat said:


> H went to swimming lessons today and then, came over. It wasn't that good of a night. Everything felt awkward.
> 
> So, before he was going to leave, we went out on the patio to talk and he said that he can't come over Saturday, maybe Friday instead and then, he could take Nicholas to the party. He said he doesn't want me to go because whey know our situation and it would be awkward. I told him I understand and I'll got to my IC appointment.


This is okay don't sweat it instead of waiting for him to come over you have an IC appointment. That is fine let him take your son and get asked the whole time where you are. Don't let this get you down this was a gambit that did not pay off now we move onto the next one. This is not a real set back.



kimmycat said:


> Well, then he started saying how he is being divided and the OW got a sour deal and he hasn't even been able to give her a chance and that he isn't gonna be able to spend the night anymore.
> 
> He said that he already told me that things are not good over there and if he came running back everything would be the same.


LOL this is funny. Here is what happened last night when he got home the OW let him have it with a MASSIVE guilt trip and started putting the screws to him then she used your past to twist him all up and play on his doubts. She made demands of him because of the guilt trip. Now he agreed to it sure but in practicality will he really not spend anymore night over? No he will break down because he will start to resent the demand she made on him and her tactics plus he wants to spend time with you. He openly admits that the relationship is bad and that he is divided on what to do so she temporarily got him with a guilt trip. This kind of tactic rarely works well. Which is why we don't recommend it as it usually has massive love bank withdrawals for little purpose. That they are fighting about him spending time with you and your son is a GOOD thing the more stress and drama he gets from that the sooner that relationship will implode. I know this hurt you but how many times has he said one thing only to do another? How many Saturdays has he said he would not be able to stay over only to stay over? Right now he is mixed up in the head DO NOT TAKE his word for it. DO NOT LET this hurt you. This was him under stress and guilt.



kimmycat said:


> He feels convinced that all would go back to me being shut down. He was saying all the things that I would say like you see, it's your fault, you make me shutdown...he said it would happen in 4 mos or 4 years he's not sure but he would not be able to handle it...especially now with his medical issues.
> 
> I was lost and just said I am going to keep working on myself and those issues.


This is bull shyte he does not believe that any more than you do. He is saying that because he needs to justify to himself giving into the guilt trip and because he just had the screws put to him. He would not be doing what he is doing with you if he did not think you can change. He DOES on some level believe you can change. You also notice nothing in here does he says he loves her or does not love you? This is his rationalization hampster running rampant and him justifying his being told what to do. So now lets take the lost phrase when he pulls this stuff you just tell him that the actions you are taking are NOT for HIM they are for YOU to make sure that YOU are better able to be in healthy relationships that you are going to continue working on you so that whether you are with him or someone else you will carry good habits into your next relationship. This has the benefit of being the TRUTH. Remember getting him back is a byproduct of your work either way you are learning a lot about yourself and what you want in relationships as well as about who you are.



kimmycat said:


> I just feel like breaking down but I can't because I have my son...I just am crushed...he said he has to think of these things to protect himself.
> 
> Now, I just don't know what to do.........


The fact that he has to think of these things to protect himself is that what you are doing is making him want to come back. He wants to be with you he is struggling with the trust factor tho. That he has to keep bringing up the past to prevent himself from running back to you is his last copping mechanism. You have taken everything away from him.

You want to know what to do? You get your son to bed then you have yourself a good cry. After words you realize that for you this changes nothing for you. You still have the choice to seek reconciliation or just detach from him. Either way the work is pretty much the same. Continue to do IC, continue to read, keep looking within yourself and improving yourself. The only difference is one way you will be reaching out to him to include him in your life the other is that you will not. This is your FIRST real downturn I was expecting one before now but was hoping you would never have one. In all probability you will probably have others. Tomorrow let me know if you want to continue this R process. For now I want you to tell yourself this day is done I am going to put the kid to bed, cry a little bit and see what tomorrow brings.


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## CEL

kimmycat said:


> He also said that the divorce date is coming up in August again and they can't push it back again and it cost him a lot of money.
> 
> It seems like everything is back to square one or worse...


This cow poo. What date is it in August? This give you a good timeline and lets you set goal you can continue up to this date and then be comfortable with any outcome. This also give HIM a deadline to shyte or get off the pot. LOL.


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## Affaircare

Kimmy, 

#1--It may not be a bad idea for you to cry. Part of the "new" you that you're practicing is being open and honest, not hiding behind a fake presentation or shutting down or turning him away. So I'm not saying you should break down and expect him to be the one to comfort you...but if you are authentically hurt and authentically sad, it seems reasonable to me to cry. And if you cry in front of your son and he says "Mommy what's wrong?" it seems reasonable to say that you are sad and miss his dad. The end. 

See, when people are new to being honest and sharing their true thoughts and feelings, somehow they think they have to do all this explaining, and I'm not sure why. I mean you don't have to go into it with your husband and have snot running and everything--but in the past you shut down and shut him out. If you are truly sad now, I see no reason not to let him in and say, "I am so sad to hear this. I can totally understand your thought process but in real life, behind the mask I show everyone else, I will let you see that I'm so very sad. I so deeply regret that I chose to act like I did all those years, and the idea of not having you in my life is scary to me." The end. It is how you really ARE. It is what you really THINK. It is what you really FEEL. And part of your job now, being the whole new you, is to no longer pretend to be something you're not...and then resent him because it seems like he made you be who you're not.  The trick, though, is that you have to be vulnerable and SHARE who you really are! 

Same for your son (in a way). You don't have to tell him why his dad doesn't live there or all about adultery--but as a member of the family he's bound to notice dad isn't around. Yet if you just share with him, in an age-appropriate way, that right now you feel sad and like crying because you miss dad...why then your son will learn that it's okay to be sad when you miss someone! Nothing wrong with that! And if you share that you are going to cry for a little bit and then in a little while you'll be all done and maybe feel better...your son will learn that he doesn't have to avoid his feelings and he can FEEL them and they will ebb and flow but that's okay. 

See, Kimmy? I know that you SAY you are different and you do want to change and be all new. Well...that means you have to do some things that will feel and seem "different" to you because they are not the same. This may not feel safe or seem natural, but that is okay. It's the new you.


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> H went to swimming lessons today and then, came over. It wasn't that good of a night. Everything felt awkward.
> 
> So, before he was going to leave, we went out on the patio to talk and he said that he can't come over Saturday, maybe Friday instead and then, he could take Nicholas to the party. He said he doesn't want me to go because whey know our situation and it would be awkward. I told him I understand and I'll got to my IC appointment.
> 
> Well, then he started saying how he is being divided and the OW got a sour deal and he hasn't even been able to give her a chance and that he isn't gonna be able to spend the night anymore.
> 
> He said that he already told me that things are not good over there and if he came running back everything would be the same. He feels convinced that all would go back to me being shut down. He was saying all the things that I would say like you see, it's your fault, you make me shutdown...he said it would happen in 4 mos or 4 years he's not sure but he would not be able to handle it...especially now with his medical issues.
> 
> I was lost and just said I am going to keep working on myself and those issues. He said our son has it better like this...he thinks that he will adjust to this and it will all be okay.
> 
> I just feel like breaking down but I can't because I have my son...I just am crushed...he said he has to think of these things to protect himself.
> 
> Now, I just don't know what to do.........


Kimmy, I am so sorry to read this. I know what you are going through and it hurts, it really hurts. 

Firstly I want you to know that whatever happens. You will be OKAY. It will be hard if you lose him but you will be OKAY. In fact most people who come through after divorce say it was the best thing that happened to them, and they found a new brighter happier life on the other side. Just remember you are STRONG, you are a beautiful person with a lot of love to give and you can and will be okay.

Secondly, I'm still on your side and want you to win him back. I don't think it's necessarily in your best interests that you get him back (it may be, esp. because you have a child). But mainly I know how you feel, I've been there, and I know how hard it is for you right now, so I want that for you.

However this last post of yours is clear hard evidence to me that the actions you have been taking have not been working. Do not continue the way you have been if you want a turnaround in his feelings for you! Read that last sentence again!

I feel it is going to be a very tall order for you to win your husband back given this new information and turn of events. I am totally with you in wanting to fight for your marriage, but I strongly believe you need to change your plan of action now, more in line with the advice you've received from me and others aligned with me on this thread.

I want to repeat again... My situation was much like yours, I begged, pleaded, rationalized, supplicated, promised repeatedly to change. I did everything I could think of in the name of "saving my marriage and family". I have one child almost exactly the same age as yours. My ex prevaricated as he is. She was confused as he is. She moved out as he has. It looked like she might give me a chance for weeks and weeks, but I clung to her and suffocated her, as I can see you are doing to him. The only difference is that he is a guy so he continues to come to you for sex, but that doesn't change a thing about how he feels about *you* as a person, which appears almost identical to how she felt about me. Guilty. Resentful.

Now with the benefit of experience I am TOTALLY convinced I pursued the wrong strategy (as you are) to achieve my goal of reconciliation. The actions I took, and I see you taking repeatedly hardly ever work because you cannot garner love from pity and you cannot be attractive to someone *as a person* when they see you do not value yourself sufficiently to walk away from someone who is clearly not showing you love. I have read about this over and over, numerous authoritative sources, I have read about attraction and I have read about the psychology in depth. I didn't understand any of this when I was in your place. I do now.

I am very sorry for your plight for I know just how deeply and profoundly this hurts. I strongly recommend you change your approach radically to one of HONORING yourself, protecting yourself, and MOVING ON without him. You need to be in a place of acceptance that you have lost him. Because you have. And he must chase you now. Do not continue to pursue him, it will only continue to hurt you.

That is your best chance of getting him back. If you only do one tactic differently let it be this. Be sure to make him chase you for everything from now on. Do not initiate contact. Keep conversations brief and off your relationship, on child care, other mundane matters only. End conversations before he does. Make it clear to him by all your actions you are moving on you cannot have this relationship with him anymore. If he wants to change the relationship, you'll think about it. But you are not having THIS relationship with him any more. You showed him what love you could give and he has snubbed you. Now it is time to withdraw the offer.

Agree with the divorce and make it clear you want to go ahead with it. Be clear that you are now facing a potentially brighter, new exciting life without him. Try to frame it that way in your mind. If you can succeed at that you will immediately feel a sense of direction and purpose and clarity. Fully intend to remove your emotional dependency on him, because it is killing you and sucking your soul. Become much less available, give him the divorce he wants and maybe, just maybe, if you can keep this up for a year or two, maybe he will have a change of heart. This is a marathon now, not a sprint. He has seen you are capable of change and loving him. So he knows what he will lose. Now he really needs to lose you. And you need to mean it. I think the point has passed where giving the dump OW ultimatum would work. Don't do that, because it seems like you still want him. You need a complete turn around. You should go cold on him, push the divorce forward and be strong. Building yourself up alone, focusing on your own well being without him is definitely your best chance of winning him back now.

The worst thing you can do is get even more desperate and try to end his affair. That will likely end all your chances of Reconciliation. Just let him go. And make him work if he wants you back now.


----------



## PBear

Kimmy, just keep on showing him that you're making changes for YOUR sake, and that you're committed to making the changes regardless. 

C


----------



## GetTough

PBear said:


> Kimmy, just keep on showing him that you're making changes for YOUR sake, and that you're committed to making the changes regardless.
> 
> C


She has lost him. When a man says this:

"he isn't gonna be able to spend the night anymore."

ITS OVER, he has made his decision. He has chosen OW (or another woman), which btw means he has been lying to Kimmy. Any further pursuit or doing anything obviously to win him back is deeply unattractive.

Only a complete turnaround can save this for her now, and even that won't be quick or easy.


----------



## PBear

GetTough said:


> She has lost him. When a man says this:
> 
> "he isn't gonna be able to spend the night anymore."
> 
> ITS OVER, he has made his decision. He has chosen OW (or another woman), which btw means he has been lying to Kimmy. Any further pursuit or doing anything obviously to win him back is deeply unattractive.
> 
> Only a complete turnaround can save this for her now, and even that won't be quick or easy.


Whether she's lost him or not, she can still work on what caused her side of the issues. That's what making changes for yourself is all about. Not making changes because your partner wants you to, but because you want to become a better person for your own sake.

C


----------



## GetTough

PBear said:


> Whether she's lost him or not, she can still work on what caused her side of the issues. That's what making changes for yourself is all about. Not making changes because your partner wants you to, but because you want to become a better person for your own sake.
> 
> C


While I agree with this, the thing is that there are likely higher priorities for her right now than working on (what were) her marriage issues. And if she puts her marriage issues first it means she is continuing to put him before her.

For example she needs to be coming to terms with the grief and the emotional trauma before she needs to learn how to be more attentive to his emotional and sexual needs.

That would be working on herself at the present time.


----------



## Aerith

Kimmy,

Did you ask him about divorce? Or he just performed the prepared speech?

Definitely, a lot of brainwashing was done from OW side…

You need to extract yourself from the situation at least for couple of days. As GetTough advised – go to spa, meditate, some new physical activities would be good… High adrenaline would be great – that will give you such a boost! Karting with your son? Sky diving? 

Cannot advise on that – but when I am low I take 5HTP (serotonin) supplements – it helps to overcome feelings of panic and desperation. Together with physical activities it makes a magic for the mood elevation. 

When you are better emotionally (and able to talk without tears and desperation), tell your husband that you want him to focus on his health for now as a high priority and don’t worry about anything else.


----------



## turnera

GetTough said:


> That is your best chance of getting him back. If you only do one tactic differently let it be this. Be sure to make him chase you for everything from now on. Do not initiate contact. Keep conversations brief and off your relationship, on child care, other mundane matters only. End conversations before he does. Make it clear to him by all your actions you are moving on you cannot have this relationship with him anymore. If he wants to change the relationship, you'll think about it. But you are not having THIS relationship with him any more. You showed him what love you could give and he has snubbed you. Now it is time to withdraw the offer.


Please listen to GT. I, too, know all about the psychology of the issue, and psychology can't be changed; we do what we do. We want, honor, and respect what we can't have, and we trash what we can easily get. Stop being his trash. Respect yourself and stop throwing yourself at him. Make him EARN you back. Once you show respect for yourself, he will, too. And even if he doesn't come around, you will have found your respect for yourself and be in a better place.


----------



## LetDownNTX

I think you need to keep working on yourself the way you have been, keep going to IC, keep reading, keep doing things for you and your son and STOP being available to him at his every whim. Dont ask him to stay the night, dont ask him to come over. As a matter of fact, stop sending him texts, stop being so "understanding". He is a grown ass man, if he wants to fix his family and be with you and his son then he needs to be a big boy and make a decision. He doesnt owe that OW a darn thing, if he's willing to throw away what he had (which doesnt seem to be that great until you realized what you were losing) for her then let him.

If you need someone to send these sweet texts to...send them to me...heck I'd love to have someone send me sweet texts throughout the day...my husband doesnt..HA! 

The thing is that if he knows you are there and available at his every whim then he is going to cake eat for as long as he can. She is most likely giving him a guilt trip and he feels like he hasnt given her a chance, let him give her a chance, let him miss you...hearing from you, seeing you, having you there for him. Back off!! His true colors will shine once he doesnt have you there at every turn! 

If he follows through with the divorce I know it will be hard but God has a plan for you and you will find someone that will make you happy! For now...make yourself happy...do things for yourself and stop worrying about when he's coming and what he's thinking.


----------



## kimmycat

Openminded said:


> I know it's scary. But only a small percentage, maybe one of ten, of cold nodules is a real issue. And even then, thyroid issues are one of the easiest to deal with and have the best results.
> 
> I'll be keeping both of you in my thoughts and prayers.


Thank you for your thoughts and prayers and for the good information. It makes me feel better and have hope that his health will be able to be restored once we know the treatment he needs...


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Okay Kimmy before I start taking this apart I am going to say I am so sorry you had a bad night. If I could come and beat some sense into him I would. Since I can't hug you I will just give you the straight facts. You still have your health. You still have your job. You still have a wonderful son. You still have your friends "including all of us". Let me tell you this what happened does not change where you are at. The byproduct of your actions was that you can probably get him back the real benefit of what you are doing is for YOURSELF. Do not forget this. The books, the IC the soul searching is for YOU to grow from all this and be a better and healthier you. Kind of like going to a gym you might meet friends or lovers there but the real reason you are going is to be healthy. So you are not at square one you are miles beyond square one don't ever look at the progress you have made and discount all the work you have put into YOURSELF. This thread and all the work you are doing is ALL about you it only has the byproduct of getting him back. Okay?
> 
> 
> 
> This is okay don't sweat it instead of waiting for him to come over you have an IC appointment. That is fine let him take your son and get asked the whole time where you are. Don't let this get you down this was a gambit that did not pay off now we move onto the next one. This is not a real set back.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL this is funny. Here is what happened last night when he got home the OW let him have it with a MASSIVE guilt trip and started putting the screws to him then she used your past to twist him all up and play on his doubts. She made demands of him because of the guilt trip. Now he agreed to it sure but in practicality will he really not spend anymore night over? No he will break down because he will start to resent the demand she made on him and her tactics plus he wants to spend time with you. He openly admits that the relationship is bad and that he is divided on what to do so she temporarily got him with a guilt trip. This kind of tactic rarely works well. Which is why we don't recommend it as it usually has massive love bank withdrawals for little purpose. That they are fighting about him spending time with you and your son is a GOOD thing the more stress and drama he gets from that the sooner that relationship will implode. I know this hurt you but how many times has he said one thing only to do another? How many Saturdays has he said he would not be able to stay over only to stay over? Right now he is mixed up in the head DO NOT TAKE his word for it. DO NOT LET this hurt you. This was him under stress and guilt.
> 
> 
> 
> This is bull shyte he does not believe that any more than you do. He is saying that because he needs to justify to himself giving into the guilt trip and because he just had the screws put to him. He would not be doing what he is doing with you if he did not think you can change. He DOES on some level believe you can change. You also notice nothing in here does he says he loves her or does not love you? This is his rationalization hampster running rampant and him justifying his being told what to do. So now lets take the lost phrase when he pulls this stuff you just tell him that the actions you are taking are NOT for HIM they are for YOU to make sure that YOU are better able to be in healthy relationships that you are going to continue working on you so that whether you are with him or someone else you will carry good habits into your next relationship. This has the benefit of being the TRUTH. Remember getting him back is a byproduct of your work either way you are learning a lot about yourself and what you want in relationships as well as about who you are.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that he has to think of these things to protect himself is that what you are doing is making him want to come back. He wants to be with you he is struggling with the trust factor tho. That he has to keep bringing up the past to prevent himself from running back to you is his last copping mechanism. You have taken everything away from him.
> 
> You want to know what to do? You get your son to bed then you have yourself a good cry. After words you realize that for you this changes nothing for you. You still have the choice to seek reconciliation or just detach from him. Either way the work is pretty much the same. Continue to do IC, continue to read, keep looking within yourself and improving yourself. The only difference is one way you will be reaching out to him to include him in your life the other is that you will not. This is your FIRST real downturn I was expecting one before now but was hoping you would never have one. In all probability you will probably have others. Tomorrow let me know if you want to continue this R process. For now I want you to tell yourself this day is done I am going to put the kid to bed, cry a little bit and see what tomorrow brings.


Yes, I know these changes and all I'm learning to make the changes are for ME and will be beneficial to ME and my SON and give me the opportunity to have a HEALTHY relationship with someone in the future...even though I am so depressed, I really don't believe it right now...

I am reading all the posts and feel that maybe I really need to make myself less available to him...I am starting to feel desperate and unable to hide in front of him like last night. I could sense that something was wrong, something was different and boy, was I right. I am sure he IS getting a guilt trip over there and the OW is reminding him of how unhappy his marriage was and he also shared that when he met her, she was also going through something difficult and they came together to help each other and now, he is not helping her...that he has been closed off to her and was sounding like he feels obligated to make good on his promises to her and even said that she is such a nice person and has gotten a sour deal...especially, since he already KNOWS how it will be be with me...that when I shutdown, I shutdown and there is no getting through to me and he has 4 years of proof of that and he just CANNOT take that that chance...I said that I'm trying to show him that I've changed and now, I know I will lose him and that I know the pain of losing him so, I would never go back to that...he said no that I am so strong and stubborn that he knows he will do something stupid and my walls will go right back up and he said that there is nothing that I can say that will change that...I said that that old marriage is dead and I want a new beginning for us and he said that he can't stop thinking of the past, he has to protect himself...

I still want him back because I love him with all my heart and soul and am not ready to give up but, I have to realize that acceptance is not giving up...

(I just read all these posts this morning.) I still haven't cried and yes, that is exactly what I wanted to do last night but, I held it in...tonight, I am putting him to be early and having a good cry...I feel numb today, not sure I am going to be able to, if not, I'm going to meditate...


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> This cow poo. What date is it in August? This give you a good timeline and lets you set goal you can continue up to this date and then be comfortable with any outcome. This also give HIM a deadline to shyte or get off the pot. LOL.


He didn't tell me date in August...I don't know if he knows it but he said that he can't change it again because they said it has already been changed once...yes, it is a looming deadline that is just around the corner...


----------



## kimmycat

Affaircare said:


> Kimmy,
> 
> #1--It may not be a bad idea for you to cry. Part of the "new" you that you're practicing is being open and honest, not hiding behind a fake presentation or shutting down or turning him away. So I'm not saying you should break down and expect him to be the one to comfort you...but if you are authentically hurt and authentically sad, it seems reasonable to me to cry. And if you cry in front of your son and he says "Mommy what's wrong?" it seems reasonable to say that you are sad and miss his dad. The end.
> 
> See, when people are new to being honest and sharing their true thoughts and feelings, somehow they think they have to do all this explaining, and I'm not sure why. I mean you don't have to go into it with your husband and have snot running and everything--but in the past you shut down and shut him out. If you are truly sad now, I see no reason not to let him in and say, "I am so sad to hear this. I can totally understand your thought process but in real life, behind the mask I show everyone else, I will let you see that I'm so very sad. I so deeply regret that I chose to act like I did all those years, and the idea of not having you in my life is scary to me." The end. It is how you really ARE. It is what you really THINK. It is what you really FEEL. And part of your job now, being the whole new you, is to no longer pretend to be something you're not...and then resent him because it seems like he made you be who you're not.  The trick, though, is that you have to be vulnerable and SHARE who you really are!
> 
> Same for your son (in a way). You don't have to tell him why his dad doesn't live there or all about adultery--but as a member of the family he's bound to notice dad isn't around. Yet if you just share with him, in an age-appropriate way, that right now you feel sad and like crying because you miss dad...why then your son will learn that it's okay to be sad when you miss someone! Nothing wrong with that! And if you share that you are going to cry for a little bit and then in a little while you'll be all done and maybe feel better...your son will learn that he doesn't have to avoid his feelings and he can FEEL them and they will ebb and flow but that's okay.
> 
> See, Kimmy? I know that you SAY you are different and you do want to change and be all new. Well...that means you have to do some things that will feel and seem "different" to you because they are not the same. This may not feel safe or seem natural, but that is okay. It's the new you.


I will try to let my feelings show more in front of my son and H as far as crying....


----------



## turnera

I know I've asked this before but I can't remember the answer. Have you talked to his parents and siblings and best friend (and pastor, if applicable) about your version of what he did?


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> Kimmy, I am so sorry to read this. I know what you are going through and it hurts, it really hurts.
> 
> Firstly I want you to know that whatever happens. You will be OKAY. It will be hard if you lose him but you will be OKAY. In fact most people who come through after divorce say it was the best thing that happened to them, and they found a new brighter happier life on the other side. Just remember you are STRONG, you are a beautiful person with a lot of love to give and you can and will be okay.
> 
> Secondly, I'm still on your side and want you to win him back. I don't think it's necessarily in your best interests that you get him back (it may be, esp. because you have a child). But mainly I know how you feel, I've been there, and I know how hard it is for you right now, so I want that for you.
> 
> However this last post of yours is clear hard evidence to me that the actions you have been taking have not been working. Do not continue the way you have been if you want a turnaround in his feelings for you! Read that last sentence again!
> 
> I feel it is going to be a very tall order for you to win your husband back given this new information and turn of events. I am totally with you in wanting to fight for your marriage, but I strongly believe you need to change your plan of action now, more in line with the advice you've received from me and others aligned with me on this thread.
> 
> I want to repeat again... My situation was much like yours, I begged, pleaded, rationalized, supplicated, promised repeatedly to change. I did everything I could think of in the name of "saving my marriage and family". I have one child almost exactly the same age as yours. My ex prevaricated as he is. She was confused as he is. She moved out as he has. It looked like she might give me a chance for weeks and weeks, but I clung to her and suffocated her, as I can see you are doing to him. The only difference is that he is a guy so he continues to come to you for sex, but that doesn't change a thing about how he feels about *you* as a person, which appears almost identical to how she felt about me. Guilty. Resentful.
> 
> Now with the benefit of experience I am TOTALLY convinced I pursued the wrong strategy (as you are) to achieve my goal of reconciliation. The actions I took, and I see you taking repeatedly hardly ever work because you cannot garner love from pity and you cannot be attractive to someone *as a person* when they see you do not value yourself sufficiently to walk away from someone who is clearly not showing you love. I have read about this over and over, numerous authoritative sources, I have read about attraction and I have read about the psychology in depth. I didn't understand any of this when I was in your place. I do now.
> 
> I am very sorry for your plight for I know just how deeply and profoundly this hurts. I strongly recommend you change your approach radically to one of HONORING yourself, protecting yourself, and MOVING ON without him. You need to be in a place of acceptance that you have lost him. Because you have. And he must chase you now. Do not continue to pursue him, it will only continue to hurt you.
> 
> That is your best chance of getting him back. If you only do one tactic differently let it be this. Be sure to make him chase you for everything from now on. Do not initiate contact. Keep conversations brief and off your relationship, on child care, other mundane matters only. End conversations before he does. Make it clear to him by all your actions you are moving on you cannot have this relationship with him anymore. If he wants to change the relationship, you'll think about it. But you are not having THIS relationship with him any more. You showed him what love you could give and he has snubbed you. Now it is time to withdraw the offer.
> 
> Agree with the divorce and make it clear you want to go ahead with it. Be clear that you are now facing a potentially brighter, new exciting life without him. Try to frame it that way in your mind. If you can succeed at that you will immediately feel a sense of direction and purpose and clarity. Fully intend to remove your emotional dependency on him, because it is killing you and sucking your soul. Become much less available, give him the divorce he wants and maybe, just maybe, if you can keep this up for a year or two, maybe he will have a change of heart. This is a marathon now, not a sprint. He has seen you are capable of change and loving him. So he knows what he will lose. Now he really needs to lose you. And you need to mean it. I think the point has passed where giving the dump OW ultimatum would work. Don't do that, because it seems like you still want him. You need a complete turn around. You should go cold on him, push the divorce forward and be strong. Building yourself up alone, focusing on your own well being without him is definitely your best chance of winning him back now.
> 
> The worst thing you can do is get even more desperate and try to end his affair. That will likely end all your chances of Reconciliation. Just let him go. And make him work if he wants you back now.


I do see that I need to be less available to him...I just do not know how to do that and NOT have him think that I have shut down to him...that is the tricky part...


----------



## kimmycat

PBear said:


> Kimmy, just keep on showing him that you're making changes for YOUR sake, and that you're committed to making the changes regardless.
> 
> C


Yes, is continuing the IC and continuing to make changes and keep respecting his decisions or indecision...


----------



## turnera

> I just do not know how to do that and NOT have him think that I have shut down to him


You hand him this letter the next time he comes for your son:

"Husband, you know I love you with all my heart. You know I've realized how horribly I've treated you and am now doing the most extensive soul-searching I've ever done and am now busting my butt to make real, lasting changes in myself because I never want to be that person again, who could do what I did to you.

But you need to also know that every day that goes by and I see you living with another woman tears up my heart a little bit more. Soon, I won't have a heart left to shred. 

So, as long as you continue to be with another woman, I'm going to have to change one more thing about me, to save what's left of my sanity: leave you alone. 

Please limit your interactions with me to those only about our son. I will set up a Google Calendar account and give you access to it, so we can keep all arrangements about him on there; please refer to it and please put in anything you need me to know. I will check it daily. Call me only in cases of emergency, and I will do the same.

If you ever decide you want this marriage back, let me know, and I'll see whether I'm still in a frame of mind where I can consider it; I honestly don't know if I will, as I am now having to steel my heart to the fact that you no longer love me and don't want me, and I can't, won't, wait for you forever.

And, if you don't, then I wish you well in your life.

Love, 
Kimmy"


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> She has lost him. When a man says this:
> 
> "he isn't gonna be able to spend the night anymore."
> 
> ITS OVER, he has made his decision. He has chosen OW (or another woman), which btw means he has been lying to Kimmy. Any further pursuit or doing anything obviously to win him back is deeply unattractive.
> 
> Only a complete turnaround can save this for her now, and even that won't be quick or easy.


It sure does seem that way...he wants to give her a chance..he said it...he has said things aren't going well over there and he thinks it is because of him continuing to come over here to spend time with me...maybe, I do need to bow out so he can see that it is not MT fault that things are not working out over there...


----------



## turnera

It's often said that when you do Plan B (the letter I gave you), you are forcing his OW to meet ALL his Emotional Needs now, and that's the surest way on earth to get their relationship to fall apart.


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> You hand him this letter the next time he comes for your son:
> 
> "Husband, you know I love you with all my heart. You know I've realized how horribly I've treated you and am now doing the most extensive soul-searching I've ever done and am now busting my butt to make real, lasting changes in myself because I never want to be that person again, who could do what I did to you.
> 
> But you need to also know that every day that goes by and I see you living with another woman tears up my heart a little bit more. Soon, I won't have a heart left to shred.
> 
> So, as long as you continue to be with another woman, I'm going to have to change one more thing about me, to save what's left of my sanity: leave you alone.
> 
> Please limit your interactions with me to those only about our son. I will set up a Google Calendar account and give you access to it, so we can keep all arrangements about him on there; please refer to it and please put in anything you need me to know. I will check it daily. Call me only in cases of emergency, and I will do the same.
> 
> If you ever decide you want this marriage back, let me know, and I'll see whether I'm still in a frame of mind where I can consider it; I honestly don't know if I will, as I am now having to steel my heart to the fact that you no longer love me and don't want me, and I can't, won't, wait for you forever.
> 
> And, if you don't, then I wish you well in your life.
> 
> Love,
> Kimmy"


Of course, this means that the OW has to meet our son and our son has to start spending time over there...something we decided wasn't going to happen for now...I think it will hurt our son and make him believe that daddy left BOTH of us for OW...


----------



## LetDownNTX

He can pick your son up and spend time with him without the other woman. Put that in the letter too, that you would appreciate him respecting your decisions to not introduce him to the OW until he is sure the son can handle it and is sure that he is ready to end one chapter and start another.

If you are worried about him seeing the other women, allow him to come to your house to visit him but dont be there. Leave when he pulls in the driveway.


----------



## kimmycat

PBear said:


> Whether she's lost him or not, she can still work on what caused her side of the issues. That's what making changes for yourself is all about. Not making changes because your partner wants you to, but because you want to become a better person for your own sake.
> 
> C


Yes, will continue to make changes especially with the support of this forum and IC...I need help not falling into a deep depression


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> While I agree with this, the thing is that there are likely higher priorities for her right now than working on (what were) her marriage issues. And if she puts her marriage issues first it means she is continuing to put him before her.
> 
> For example she needs to be coming to terms with the grief and the emotional trauma before she needs to learn how to be more attentive to his emotional and sexual needs.
> 
> That would be working on herself at the present time.


Yes, it seems that fulfilling his needs is not what he wants right now, except for the sex. I just fear that not having sex with him will make him think that I have shut down again...sine we didn't have sex for soooooo long...I am showing him that I have changed I that way every time I have sex with him...

But, if I just work on myself, shouldn't I still have sex with him since be open sexually is also something that I needed to work on...one of the important changes that I have made to SHOW him things can be different?


----------



## kimmycat

Everafter2013 said:


> Please just stop this. This is why so many women end up hurting at the end. The guy says something like this, but her friends tell her not to believe him because “he’s scared”, “he’s confused”, “he doesn’t know what he is talking about." I would be annoyed if someone putting words in my mouth like this.
> 
> We should stop undermining a guy, looking at him as if he was just a “victim” of the fog with no free will and capacity to think for himself. And then when he finally leaves for good…we blame him because…of what? Because of this notion that he didn’t mean it when he first told us he was leaving? But he already told you, the fact that you didn’t want to believe him is not really his fault.
> 
> Isn’t this the very lesson Kimmy should have learnt from the past four years? He tried to talk to her, she didn’t listen, she didn’t take him seriously, she came to her own conclusion that he wouldn’t go anywhere despite his complaints.
> 
> If he is really confused, if he changes his tune again tomorrow or next week or next month, that’s ALL ON HIM. Don’t feel guilty to refuse relying your future plan on someone who is wishy-washy.
> 
> Kimmy,
> 
> You have strived to make positive changes. Keep it up. You do it for YOU, not for him.
> 
> You must prepare to lose him now. You have no other option. Prepare yourself, mentally, emotionally, and financially. If he comes back…let him decide that on his own, because he wants to. If he doesn’t…just let him go. If you really love him, you must be willing to do and accept this.
> 
> Be hopeful for the love that you believe he still has for you but be realistic too.
> 
> This dissecting every words he said, every little gesture, trying to read between the lines (when there is probably none…most probably he means just that: prepare yourself for the finality of the divorce), it will just drive you crazy.
> 
> Let’s look at facts here. Facts are: he has already left and lived with another woman. Facts are: he has filed for the dissolution of your marriage, he postponed it once but he has given indication he may not postpone it again. What do these facts tell you? Logically, he has both feet out of the door.
> 
> Have you lost all hopes? Technically, no. Even after the divorce, you guys can always re-marry again. Now it’s up to you to weigh the pro and cons of stoking that hope alive.
> 
> If you just let it go, three years from now there are scenarios that may happen: 1) you may be happily in love with someone else 2) you may be single and content to be on your own, at peace with everything in your past 3) he may fall in love with you again and you guys are working hard on reconciling.
> 
> If you keep on hanging on that hope, three years from now: 1) you may be back with him working hard reconciling 2) you are still alone, anxiously waiting for him to “wake up” and come back to you, watching years go by.
> 
> Meanwhile, focus on yourself. While you are busy analyzing him, who is wiping your tears now? He may be busy arguing with his OW, he may be busy having fun with OW. Who knows! You have other priorities right now. Be kind to yourself. You have your son to think about. You have your wounded heart to tend to. You have an impending divorce you must take care and you absolutely must protect yourself and your child. You have enough on your plate.
> 
> Go to IC, work on your intimacy issues. Get some exercise. Eat healthily. Go to a spa if you can. Gather your girlfriends and supports. Surround yourself with people who actually love you and want to be there for you. This is Summer, enjoy outdoor with your son and loved ones. Meditate, sleep, breathe.
> 
> I am afraid that you have lost your sight of the big picture here. YOU are hurting now, not him. I respect your WH for being upfront. He could have strung you along for a couple more months just for sex on the side (there are a**holes like this). But I don't respect him for placing the blame solely on you. You rejected him yes...but there were intimacy issues and that's his and your issues, not just yours alone.
> 
> Be well Kimmy.


Thank you, I'm so confused...I don't know what to do...I'm just not texting him today and letting him think...


----------



## kimmycat

Aerith said:


> Kimmy,
> 
> Did you ask him about divorce? Or he just performed the prepared speech?
> 
> Definitely, a lot of brainwashing was done from OW side…
> 
> You need to extract yourself from the situation at least for couple of days. As GetTough advised – go to spa, meditate, some new physical activities would be good… High adrenaline would be great – that will give you such a boost! Karting with your son? Sky diving?
> 
> Cannot advise on that – but when I am low I take 5HTP (serotonin) supplements – it helps to overcome feelings of panic and desperation. Together with physical activities it makes a magic for the mood elevation.
> 
> When you are better emotionally (and able to talk without tears and desperation), tell your husband that you want him to focus on his health for now as a high priority and don’t worry about anything else.



I think it all came up because I asked about the weekend...

Yes, I am trying to remove myself at least for today and tomorrow if he doesn't come over for tomorrow. He did say he was coming over today to get his shirts that the housekeeper is ironing...but, he said he would be able to stay. So, I am going to try and be nice and not desperate...

I am continuing to pray and work on myself and yes, I want him to focus on his health, right now.

It is all just so hard....


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> Please listen to GT. I, too, know all about the psychology of the issue, and psychology can't be changed; we do what we do. We want, honor, and respect what we can't have, and we trash what we can easily get. Stop being his trash. Respect yourself and stop throwing yourself at him. Make him EARN you back. Once you show respect for yourself, he will, too. And even if he doesn't come around, you will have found your respect for yourself and be in a better place.


You're right about the trash...I just don't think he wants to earn me back in any way because he thinks everything will go back to the way it was before...he just doesn't trust me and I want to know, how am I going to get him to trust me? By letting him think I have moved on or am willing to move on? Scarey


----------



## kimmycat

LetDownNTX said:


> I think you need to keep working on yourself the way you have been, keep going to IC, keep reading, keep doing things for you and your son and STOP being available to him at his every whim. Dont ask him to stay the night, dont ask him to come over. As a matter of fact, stop sending him texts, stop being so "understanding". He is a grown ass man, if he wants to fix his family and be with you and his son then he needs to be a big boy and make a decision. He doesnt owe that OW a darn thing, if he's willing to throw away what he had (which doesnt seem to be that great until you realized what you were losing) for her then let him.
> 
> If you need someone to send these sweet texts to...send them to me...heck I'd love to have someone send me sweet texts throughout the day...my husband doesnt..HA!
> 
> The thing is that if he knows you are there and available at his every whim then he is going to cake eat for as long as he can. She is most likely giving him a guilt trip and he feels like he hasnt given her a chance, let him give her a chance, let him miss you...hearing from you, seeing you, having you there for him. Back off!! His true colors will shine once he doesnt have you there at every turn!
> 
> If he follows through with the divorce I know it will be hard but God has a plan for you and you will find someone that will make you happy! For now...make yourself happy...do things for yourself and stop worrying about when he's coming and what he's thinking.



I have to make myself happy and will try to start doing things with friends and try to move on and see what that does for me AND for helping him want me back...thanks


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> I know I've asked this before but I can't remember the answer. Have you talked to his parents and siblings and best friend (and pastor, if applicable) about your version of what he did?


Nope...have thought about reaching out to them but, don't want to anger H...today is his mom's bday and I texted her happy birthday and got no response...


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> Of course, this means that the OW has to meet our son and our son has to start spending time over there...something we decided wasn't going to happen for now...I think it will hurt our son and make him believe that daddy left BOTH of us for OW...


 Nonsense. He can take him to the park, to the mall, to a ball game...


----------



## kimmycat

LetDownNTX said:


> He can pick your son up and spend time with him without the other woman. Put that in the letter too, that you would appreciate him respecting your decisions to not introduce him to the OW until he is sure the son can handle it and is sure that he is ready to end one chapter and start another.
> 
> If you are worried about him seeing the other women, allow him to come to your house to visit him but dont be there. Leave when he pulls in the driveway.


Thinking about doing this and adding that part to the letter...if I decide to give him the letter. I just am laying low for today and will try to be cheerful when I see him at swimming lessons and when he picks up his shirts and not try to make him stay longer...no sweet texts today...


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> But, if I just work on myself, shouldn't I still have sex with him since be open sexually is also something that I needed to work on...one of the important changes that I have made to SHOW him things can be different?


 Uh...your husband is LIVING WITH ANOTHER WOMAN.

Why on EARTH should you be having sex with him?


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> You're right about the trash...I just don't think he wants to earn me back


Then respect his decision and stop trying to manipulate him.


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> Nope...have thought about reaching out to them but, don't want to anger H...today is his mom's bday and I texted her happy birthday and got no response...


 You're kidding. In all this time, no one told you to expose the affair to stop it?


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> Nope...have thought about reaching out to them but, don't want to anger H...


Again, desperation.

You need to respect yourself. Why should he, if you can't even do it?

You should have been shouting from the rooftop at his important people at what he did to you. HE cheated. Not you. He has suffered no consequences so why should he stop? In fact, he got the best of both worlds, since you've now turned into an escort service AND a daycare for him in his new life.


----------



## kimmycat

Sigh....now, that I have read all the posts since last night and responded to each one, I a thoroughly confused...I know the answer is to have him trust me that our old marriage, in other words, me being shut down will never happen again AND without him wanting to risk another chance with me, I will never be ale to show him that...should I reach out to our mutual friends, his sister (who ha has told me is not really speaking to him but does admit that he HAS to be happy, too) or his mom, who he has said vacillates between please, save your marriage and I know you have to be happy too and I understand. But, I haven't talked to any of them...


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> You're kidding. In all this time, no one told you to expose the affair to stop it?


Well, he has told me that they all know about his situation...I KNOW his best friend does because I told his wife...


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> who he has said vacillates between please, save your marriage and I know you have to be happy too and I understand. But, I haven't talked to any of them...


 First, don't believe a word HE says, and second, anything they say is based off of not knowing that he dumped you for another woman. BIG difference.


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> Well, he has told me that they all know about his situation...I KNOW his best friend does because I told his wife...


 This is what he told everyone: "Mom, dad, I have to tell you some bad news. The truth is, Kimmy has been treating me horribly for the last 4 years and I just couldn't take it anymore. She withheld sex, ignored me, made me feel terrible, and I just couldn't believe she turned into such an awful person. The only way I was able to get through it was with the help of Mabel. She's been an amazing friend, and she really tried hard to help me save my marriage, but Kimmy wouldn't have it. I finally just had to leave her to save my soul. And a wonderful thing happened. Once I left, I started seeing Mabel in a new light - for the loving, caring, giving person I thought Kimmy was. And I'm so happy now. Please don't be mad at Kimmy; I don't know what made her turn into such a witch, but I truly wish her well."


----------



## CEL

Hey Kimmy here is what I would like you to do. Take a day off and see what you want. There is just to much information going on here all of it trying to be the truth. All of it is good and all of it is bad. The problem is they are all suggestions they contradict each other. So take it all in and think about what YOU want. Here are some questions to meditate in?

1. Is the current process hurting you?

2. Do you feel like it is taking away your self confidence?

3. Do you want divorce or reconciliation?

4. What approach is the most different from how the marriage WAS? Let's be frank he is divorcing the old marriage if you want him back you will have to go the other way.

5. This was one conversation and yet from the posts it sounds like he suddenly told you he likes guys. Let's have some perspective here. You had you biggest break through over the weekend in ACTIONS. Both his and yours now we are taking all this a face value when that has PROVEN to be a bad tactic.

6. We may disagree in what we would like you to do. But we all support you.

Take a day to decompress no matter which way you go one day will not save you or kill you. As for tonight hey how about we go radical and you just do what YOU want to do. Go with the moment if you want to spend time with him do it, if you want to be separate do it. What do you think?


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> Uh...your husband is LIVING WITH ANOTHER WOMAN.
> 
> Why on EARTH should you be having sex with him?


To show him I have changed and that I am no longer withholding sex...since I do for 4 years....


----------



## lenzi

He's a lucky guy. He's having sex with his wife, living with his girlfriend and having sex with her, he can pick and choose which woman he wants to be with, whenever he wants, because they both suffer from such low self esteem that they place this guy on a pedestal and put his needs so far ahead of their own that they're left with nothing but begging for scraps.


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> First, don't believe a word HE says, and second, anything they say is based off of not knowing that he dumped you for another woman. BIG difference.



Supposedly, they all know he is living with OW and that she moved here just to be with him...


----------



## CEL

turnera said:


> First, don't believe a word HE says, and second, anything they say is based off of not knowing that he dumped you for another woman. BIG difference.


And if he was telling the truth? This would look exactly like desperation and pathetic at this stage. This would of been great when he first decided to seek divorce. He filled for divorce and had the final date it does not matter if she shames him now then all he will do us push the divorce through. I would.


----------



## LetDownNTX

kimmycat said:


> Yes, it seems that fulfilling his needs is not what he wants right now, except for the sex. I just fear that not having sex with him will make him think that I have shut down again...sine we didn't have sex for soooooo long...I am showing him that I have changed I that way every time I have sex with him...
> 
> But, if I just work on myself, shouldn't I still have sex with him since be open sexually is also something that I needed to work on...one of the important changes that I have made to SHOW him things can be different?



I can so relate to your fear. I did the same thing when I was separated...I hated myself in the end but at the time I was was afraid if I wasnt "open" to what he wanted at the time then I was shutting him out and it would push him towards the OW more. 

You have to be honest with him....just tell him you cant keep living like he's coming back because he keeps sounding so unsure. Everytime you have sex with him and he leaves, its going to kill you a little more inside!


----------



## LetDownNTX

lenzi said:


> He's a lucky guy. He's having sex with his wife, living with his girlfriend and having sex with her, he can pick and choose which woman he wants to be with, whenever he wants, because they both suffer from such low self esteem that they place this guy on a pedestal and put his needs so far ahead of their own that they're left with nothing but begging for scraps.


As cruel as this is to hear when someone is in this position, you hit the nail on the head!!


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> To show him I have changed and that I am no longer withholding sex...since I do for 4 years....


 So you're saying, sure, go ahead and screw other women, I don't mind, cos all I care about is you not leaving me.

Your logic is failed here, kimmy. Will he choose you? Maybe. But he'll never value you again.


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> Supposedly, they all know he is living with OW and that she moved here just to be with him...


 But WHEN did it start? I guarantee he told them it was AFTER you ran him off.


----------



## turnera

CEL said:


> And if he was telling the truth? This would look exactly like desperation and pathetic at this stage. This would of been great when he first decided to seek divorce. He filled for divorce and had the final date it does not matter if she shames him now then all he will do us push the divorce through. I would.


 "MIL/FIL, DH tells me he's filing next month for good, so I probably won't see you guys again. I just want to let you know the real story behind how this went down, because I know if it was my child, I'd want to know the truth. I was a not-great wife, I withheld sex, I withdrew, for a variety of reasons. But then DH chose to start an affair. I accept responsibility for my half, but I never would have cheated on him; I would have had the respect for him to divorce him first if I wanted out. I'm really sad it didn't happen that way. I'll miss you guys."


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Hey Kimmy here is what I would like you to do. Take a day off and see what you want. There is just to much information going on here all of it trying to be the truth. All of it is good and all of it is bad. The problem is they are all suggestions they contradict each other. So take it all in and think about what YOU want. Here are some questions to meditate in?
> 
> 1. Is the current process hurting you?
> 
> 2. Do you feel like it is taking away your self confidence?
> 
> 3. Do you want divorce or reconciliation?
> 
> 4. What approach is the most different from how the marriage WAS? Let's be frank he is divorcing the old marriage if you want him back you will have to go the other way.
> 
> 5. This was one conversation and yet from the posts it sounds like he suddenly told you he likes guys. Let's have some perspective here. You had you biggest break through over the weekend in ACTIONS. Both his and yours now we are taking all this a face value when that has PROVEN to be a bad tactic.
> 
> 6. We may disagree in what we would like you to do. But we all support you.
> 
> Take a day to decompress no matter which way you go one day will not save you or kill you. As for tonight hey how about we go radical and you just do what YOU want to do. Go with the moment if you want to spend time with him do it, if you want to be separate do it. What do you think?


1. The current process is not hurting me. Heat is hurting me is him leaving and knowing he is with OW and that, he is not coming home.

2. The process is not hurting my self-confidence but, him not coming back AND more so, feeling this downturn...

3. Definitely, reconciliation...

4. Yes, my current tactic is definitely the farthest away from the old marriage. No doubt about it...but, what about him not trusting me...I am thinking that if I keep on with the current path but, take a break for today...it will help, but, I am going to see him today...

5. I am just going to be nice today and show him that I am accepting his decisions and try to not let him talk about the relationship with OW or me...

6. I do appreciate all the support and am very confused about all the different suggestions...

Yep, just gonna play it cool tonight and be making dinner and if he just comes to pick up shirts, I'm going to be totally cool with it...


----------



## CEL

That's good Kimmy again you are a very smart women. You have read the books and know what makes a good relationship no matter what happens you will have gained a ton from this time. Just relax and take the day as it comes. We are all still behind you.


----------



## turnera

http://ezinearticles.com/?Is-Your-Spouse-Caught-Up-in-an-Affair?--Stop-it-Now!&id=1869007


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> That's good Kimmy again you are a very smart women. You have read the books and know what makes a good relationship no matter what happens you will have gained a ton from this time. Just relax and take the day as it comes. We are all still behind you.



Thank you...


----------



## CEL

Lets get two things out of the way because they keep coming up.

1. The divorce papers have been filed and signed at this point she has NO chance of getting them changed. Unless she or he has a change of of status. Like major life altering illness, loss of a job, house burns down. That is done so by all means go and get a free consultation but this boat has sailed.

2. She has said that they ALWAYS use condoms. 

That being said can we agree not to go over the same points over and over. These are done she has addressed them and is taking action on them. We can all agree they are important but it is not productive to keep going over what has already been rehashed over and over. NO ONE debates the merits of these.


----------



## lenzi

Where did she say they ALWAYS use condoms and where are people bringing up this point over and over again? I don't see any references to condoms in the last few pages.


----------



## LetDownNTX

lenzi said:


> Where did she say they ALWAYS use condoms and where are people bringing up this point over and over again? I don't see any references to condoms in the last few pages.


Post #30, I had to go back and look myself.


----------



## lenzi

LetDownNTX said:


> Post #30, I had to go back and look myself.


Ok so why is CEL so adamant about not bringing up a subject that hasn't been brought up in over 200 posts on this thread, over 2 weeks ago?

Not to mention I don't see any recent posts about her going back to court to try to modify part of the divorce agreeement..


----------



## LetDownNTX

lenzi said:


> Ok so why is CEL so adamant about not bringing up a subject that hasn't been brought up in over 200 posts on this thread?


Now sure, guess you'll have to ask him. 

Maybe CEL doesnt want her to feel defeated?


----------



## CEL

Be warned long post. Since this started we have had a lot of advice being thrown at Kimmy much of it is contradictory so I thought being the person I am I would post the plans or parts of plans to help explain how I think they work and when they are successful I will be linking to other websites for additional reading.

Marriage Builders Plans What Are Plan A and Plan B?

Plan A: This plan is hallmarked by those who realize that the one of the leading causes of the marriage going bad was some behavior of theirs. Usually this means that some EN's were not met for a long time leading the WS to fall out of love with the BS. Now by out of love I mean that their Love Bank was very low to the point that they felt they could find another partner who would make it fill up. This plan makes good use of the two books His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters as well as this plan is detailed in Surviving an Affair. During the time that you are doing the Plan A you are showing with actions and words how you would like the marriage to BE. This adds a good contrast to the obviously dysfunctional affair relationship and makes the BS appear to be the more attractive option as the BS is now looking great and meeting the needs of the WS sometimes for the first time. Now here are some of the steps in this plan.

1. You agree to meet all the EN's of your WS. 

2. You agree to avoid Love Busters especially Angry Outbursts, Selfish Demands and Disrespectful Judgments.

3. You own up to your side of the breakdown of the affair. 

4. You make it known that you want to work on the marriage and that you are committed to long term change.

5. You agree to be honest about your feelings.

Now this particular plan works very well but it does take it's toll on the BS as they will be filling up the WS love bank while the WS is not putting much back in return. This is actually a good thing as the BS will slowly fall out of love with the WS this advances the detachment process. Because of of the consequence of Plan A it is recommended that the BS set a date for themselves on when they will stop the Plan. This gives the BS a firm deadline and helps to keep the BS's life in perspective. It is one thing to say you are willing to meet their EN's but to do this forever without receiving anything in return is abusive and will take a heavy toll on the BS. Many people cannot do this plan and move onto the Plan B.


Plan B: This is very close to the 180 but I will address that later. So this plan is a complete cut off from the WS you tell them in a letter that because of the emotional toll their affair is taking on them that they can no longer have contact with them. So the steps of this plan are.

1. No contact with the WS except as it deals with kids or finances.

2. No I love you. No hugging. No kissing.

3. You meet none of the WS spouses EN's.

4. Sometimes this goes as far as designating a go between who handles all communication including the finances and kids.

5. This plan has no deadline this plan goes till R or D.

This plan is a great plan if the relationship is where the BS is the giver. So if you usually meet all the BS EN's and have on your part had a good marriage then cutting contact with them throws them into withdrawal from you. They then have to depend on the AP to fill all these needs. However if in the relationship you did not meet their EN's then this plan will not work as they have no withdrawal and no reason to come back. They will instead just continue on with life as you not meeting their EN's was the reason why the original relationship was in trouble. This plan works best on your traditional cake eaters who want both the AP and BS those that are unwilling to make a move one way or another. Granted this plan also needs as its foundation an overall good past marriage where EN's were met without this the plan will fail.


Now lets look at the 180 Plan

180: is very similar to the Plan B so much so that they can be almost interchangeable they do have some differences but these are mostly cosmetic. One of the hallmarks and differences of this plan is it has rules for dealing with a spouse when you are still live with them. This plan works best in the same way that Plan B works in the you will cut them off from supplying their EN's this will lead to a withdrawal and hopefully help to end the affair. However it has the same circumstances for success that the Plan B does as well in the fact that the marriage had to be overall good otherwise they will suffer no withdrawal. If in your marriage you were the "giver" and the WS was the "taker" this is a good plan to go with. This plan like the Plan B is a plan that continues until the end either R or D.


Lets look at Exposure

Exposure: Infidelity experts are actually divided on this and even those that agree that it is great still give careful guidelines on when to use it. The main component of this is that you are using the social morality that we all live with to put added pressure on the couple to end it. This works fantastic if the AP is married or in another relationship. It can work outside these lines as well but is less effective. The affair is good because it is secret by shining the light on the affair this makes it seem like what it is tawdry and drab like a lot of things. It takes the sizzle out of it. This also can have the benefit of getting the family involved and putting major pressure on the WS. Exposure does come with a cost and that is that this is a serious Love Buster however in most cases this works so well as to mitigate the damage. The affair is in the light so the WS is no longer getting the sizzle and the WS faces massive shame for having the affair. These two things along with a good Plan encourage dare I say it force the WS to work on the marriage.

Now when does exposure not work? When it is already out and they are in an actual relationship. This is because they have voluntarily given up the sizzle they have already laid the ground work to validate their relationship any further revealing will have all the negative aspects of exposure "Love Bank Withdrawal, looking desperate, looking pathetic" with none of the successes "killing the sizzle, adding shame, getting support from friends and family".

Now if you made it through that I heartily congratulate you I hope it was not as hard to read as it was to write. So given these thoughts of mine I will give my recommendations.

1. You cannot do the 180 as he will not go into withdrawals you have only been meeting his EN's for 2 weeks. This gives you nothing to count on a withdrawal from him instead it is more likely he will just enmesh more with the OW.

2. Given the above and for the same reason Plan B is out. You have no golden time that is recent enough to get him to go into withdrawal over or to feel nostalgic over.

3. You could do the exposure but you will get none of the benefits of it. He has come out to his family and friends if you get into this with them it will only be a he said she said situation that will make you look pathetic and desperate. He has already laid the groundwork for his story your story at this late date will not really be a factor. You will make a massive Love Bank withdrawal for no benefit.

Well that leaves you with two choices if you want to reconcile you can go Plan A or you can do a combination. I recommend Plan A which you have been doing. And let me add these are things you have gained by doing it.

1. He spends more time with you.

2. He complains about the OW to you.

3. He has made very good signs that he wants to come back.

4. He has performed actions indicating his love for you both sexually and in words.

5. You have had more conversations with him. More connections with him then you have had in a LONG time.

6. You have driven MASSIVE wedges in the affair to the point that the OW is making Love Bank withdrawals daily from him. 

All this progress is justifiably put into doubt by last nights conversation. One talk after he was just whipped by the OW does not take away any of your gains. Wait to see the actions, at this point his words are flighty as his heart and mind fight so he will be all over the place. What he told you is what you will have to overcome it is a realistic and honest portrayal of all his justifications. Once we get these knocked down then we get closer to getting him back.


----------



## CEL

lenzi said:


> Where did she say they ALWAYS use condoms and where are people bringing up this point over and over again? I don't see any references to condoms in the last few pages.


No but every post that has to do with sex had to do with being safe.......


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> I do see that I need to be less available to him...I just do not know how to do that and NOT have him think that I have shut down to him...that is the tricky part...


Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify: You need to shut down to him - and focus on your own well being without him.


----------



## GetTough

turnera said:


> You hand him this letter the next time he comes for your son:
> 
> "Husband, you know I love you with all my heart. You know I've realized how horribly I've treated you and am now doing the most extensive soul-searching I've ever done and am now busting my butt to make real, lasting changes in myself because I never want to be that person again, who could do what I did to you.
> 
> But you need to also know that every day that goes by and I see you living with another woman tears up my heart a little bit more. Soon, I won't have a heart left to shred.
> 
> So, as long as you continue to be with another woman, I'm going to have to change one more thing about me, to save what's left of my sanity: leave you alone.
> 
> *Please limit your interactions with me to those only about our son.* I will set up a Google Calendar account and give you access to it, so we can keep all arrangements about him on there; please refer to it and please put in anything you need me to know. I will check it daily. *Call me only in cases of emergency, and I will do the same.*
> 
> If you ever decide you want this marriage back, let me know, and I'll see whether I'm still in a frame of mind where I can consider it; I honestly don't know if I will, as I am now having to steel my heart to the fact that you no longer love me and don't want me, and I can't, won't, wait for you forever.
> 
> And, if you don't, then I wish you well in your life.
> 
> Love,
> Kimmy"


Its a sweet letter, and it's a whole lot better than what she's been doing, but its still clearly designed to get him back. I do not believe she owes him any explanation either. My opinion is she'd benefit from making this turnaround even clearer and stronger. Send the lines in bold only.


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> It sure does seem that way...he wants to give her a chance..he said it...he has said things aren't going well over there and he thinks it is because of him continuing to come over here to spend time with me...maybe, I do need to bow out so he can see that it is not MT fault that things are not working out over there...


I don't think he wants to just "give her a chance". He has pushed the divorce forward, let her move in with him, had her uproot her life and he also wants to bring his son into her life. He no longer wants intimacy with you.

He's not just "giving her a chance"

--He has decided-- 

He is making a new family with her.

He is trying to defend his actions (leaving you) out of guilt ("she's not making it easy for me") not because it is outside of his control, and you are naturally reading this as hope. Shift your focus off him and have as little to do with him as possible for now, that is your best chance.


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> Of course, this means that the OW has to meet our son and our son has to start spending time over there...something we decided wasn't going to happen for now...I think it will hurt our son and make him believe that daddy left BOTH of us for OW...


Try to persuade your H to take longer before introducing OW. If that fails you could raise this with the attorney and explain to H that you will need to escalate. Are you tracking yours and his time with your son yet? It is important to maintain a faithful record of that. Definitely buy at least an hour or two consultation with an attorney, and take a list of specific questions to the meeting.


----------



## GetTough

LetDownNTX said:


> He can pick your son up and spend time with him without the other woman. Put that in the letter too, that you would appreciate him respecting your decisions to not introduce him to the OW until he is sure the son can handle it and is sure that he is ready to end one chapter and start another.
> 
> If you are worried about him seeing the other women, allow him to come to your house to visit him but dont be there. Leave when he pulls in the driveway.


I think the first idea is along the right lines but I think it needs to be firmer. I think kimmy needs to say what she wants. e.g. "I would like us to wait x months before introducing.". The point is that Kimmy has a right to a say in her son's life even when her son is with stbx, and I believe she needs to be clear on, and assert that right (to having a say) confidently from the get go.

The second idea, well I just could not do that with my ex. Give stbx free reign of the house during a divorce? This is not a mutually agreed amicable divorce. I would advise against letting him in your house at all Kimmy. Does he still have a right to be there? If so, that needs to be changed. Also do you have any joint finances, credit cards etc. Those need to be separate.


----------



## kimmycat

lenzi said:


> Where did she say they ALWAYS use condoms and where are people bringing up this point over and over again? I don't see any references to condoms in the last few pages.


Yes, I have said we always use condoms...the posts are happening so fast that it may be many pages back...


----------



## kimmycat

lenzi said:


> Ok so why is CEL so adamant about not bringing up a subject that hasn't been brought up in over 200 posts on this thread, over 2 weeks ago?
> 
> Not to mention I don't see any recent posts about her going back to court to try to modify part of the divorce agreeement..


It's not about modifying...people keep telling me to get legal advice but the FINAL papers have been signed and agreed to...divorce was supposed to be final on 6/24...H had it moved and they told him it will be in August...I don't know if H has the date yet...


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> Yes, it seems that fulfilling his needs is not what he wants right now, except for the sex. I just fear that not having sex with him will make him think that I have shut down again...sine we didn't have sex for soooooo long...I am showing him that I have changed I that way every time I have sex with him...
> 
> But, if I just work on myself, shouldn't I still have sex with him since be open sexually is also something that I needed to work on...one of the important changes that I have made to SHOW him things can be different?


If you accept that you should be making yourself less available, which I think you do... and that is a great decision btw, then having sex with him is just about as far opposite to that as you can go.

At some point you have to say to yourself... I tried to persuade him I could change, but it didn't work. I tried to show him I could love him the way he wanted to be loved, but it didn't work. I cannot keep beating a dead horse. Its not helping me. Its hurting me. I have to change strategy.

I cannot keep giving myself to a man who doesn't love me, who wants another woman, and putting my life on hold for him... I have to be strong and take good care of myself so that I'm on the path to healing and a new happier life.

As soon as you let him go and shut down on him you will begin to heal. The more you focus just on your own well being the more you begin to heal. It will be hard at first but if you follow this course you will begin to feel real benefits after just a few weeks. You have a bright future without him. You will be okay.


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> It's not about modifying...people keep telling me to get legal advice but the FINAL papers have been signed and agreed to...divorce was supposed to be final on 6/24...H had it moved and they told him it will be in August...I don't know if H has the date yet...


There are still some things that an hour or two of advice may benefit you...

What are you going to do if your stbx wants to leave the country with your child? And he insists he is keeping the passport?

What are you going to do when your stbx wants you to pay for 100% of your son's college costs.

What are you going to do when OW wants to take your son to her church or change your son's school.

and I could go on...

Most importantly, how can you be sure that your time with your son is protected if you have not had your own representative review the agreement for fairness. A judge will overrule an unfair agreement but it is not that common.

It is true that I don't know your agreement and it may already cover everything that's important to you. What custody arrangements have you agreed?


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Be warned long post. Since this started we have had a lot of advice being thrown at Kimmy much of it is contradictory so I thought being the person I am I would post the plans or parts of plans to help explain how I think they work and when they are successful I will be linking to other websites for additional reading.
> 
> Marriage Builders Plans What Are Plan A and Plan B?
> 
> Plan A: This plan is hallmarked by those who realize that the one of the leading causes of the marriage going bad was some behavior of theirs. Usually this means that some EN's were not met for a long time leading the WS to fall out of love with the BS. Now by out of love I mean that their Love Bank was very low to the point that they felt they could find another partner who would make it fill up. This plan makes good use of the two books His Needs Her Needs and Love Busters as well as this plan is detailed in Surviving an Affair. During the time that you are doing the Plan A you are showing with actions and words how you would like the marriage to BE. This adds a good contrast to the obviously dysfunctional affair relationship and makes the BS appear to be the more attractive option as the BS is now looking great and meeting the needs of the WS sometimes for the first time. Now here are some of the steps in this plan.
> 
> 1. You agree to meet all the EN's of your WS.
> 
> 2. You agree to avoid Love Busters especially Angry Outbursts, Selfish Demands and Disrespectful Judgments.
> 
> 3. You own up to your side of the breakdown of the affair.
> 
> 4. You make it known that you want to work on the marriage and that you are committed to long term change.
> 
> 5. You agree to be honest about your feelings.
> 
> Now this particular plan works very well but it does take it's toll on the BS as they will be filling up the WS love bank while the WS is not putting much back in return. This is actually a good thing as the BS will slowly fall out of love with the WS this advances the detachment process. Because of of the consequence of Plan A it is recommended that the BS set a date for themselves on when they will stop the Plan. This gives the BS a firm deadline and helps to keep the BS's life in perspective. It is one thing to say you are willing to meet their EN's but to do this forever without receiving anything in return is abusive and will take a heavy toll on the BS. Many people cannot do this plan and move onto the Plan B.
> 
> 
> Plan B: This is very close to the 180 but I will address that later. So this plan is a complete cut off from the WS you tell them in a letter that because of the emotional toll their affair is taking on them that they can no longer have contact with them. So the steps of this plan are.
> 
> 1. No contact with the WS except as it deals with kids or finances.
> 
> 2. No I love you. No hugging. No kissing.
> 
> 3. You meet none of the WS spouses EN's.
> 
> 4. Sometimes this goes as far as designating a go between who handles all communication including the finances and kids.
> 
> 5. This plan has no deadline this plan goes till R or D.
> 
> This plan is a great plan if the relationship is where the BS is the giver. So if you usually meet all the BS EN's and have on your part had a good marriage then cutting contact with them throws them into withdrawal from you. They then have to depend on the AP to fill all these needs. However if in the relationship you did not meet their EN's then this plan will not work as they have no withdrawal and no reason to come back. They will instead just continue on with life as you not meeting their EN's was the reason why the original relationship was in trouble. This plan works best on your traditional cake eaters who want both the AP and BS those that are unwilling to make a move one way or another. Granted this plan also needs as its foundation an overall good past marriage where EN's were met without this the plan will fail.
> 
> 
> Now lets look at the 180 Plan
> 
> 180: is very similar to the Plan B so much so that they can be almost interchangeable they do have some differences but these are mostly cosmetic. One of the hallmarks and differences of this plan is it has rules for dealing with a spouse when you are still live with them. This plan works best in the same way that Plan B works in the you will cut them off from supplying their EN's this will lead to a withdrawal and hopefully help to end the affair. However it has the same circumstances for success that the Plan B does as well in the fact that the marriage had to be overall good otherwise they will suffer no withdrawal. If in your marriage you were the "giver" and the WS was the "taker" this is a good plan to go with. This plan like the Plan B is a plan that continues until the end either R or D.
> 
> 
> Lets look at Exposure
> 
> Exposure: Infidelity experts are actually divided on this and even those that agree that it is great still give careful guidelines on when to use it. The main component of this is that you are using the social morality that we all live with to put added pressure on the couple to end it. This works fantastic if the AP is married or in another relationship. It can work outside these lines as well but is less effective. The affair is good because it is secret by shining the light on the affair this makes it seem like what it is tawdry and drab like a lot of things. It takes the sizzle out of it. This also can have the benefit of getting the family involved and putting major pressure on the WS. Exposure does come with a cost and that is that this is a serious Love Buster however in most cases this works so well as to mitigate the damage. The affair is in the light so the WS is no longer getting the sizzle and the WS faces massive shame for having the affair. These two things along with a good Plan encourage dare I say it force the WS to work on the marriage.
> 
> Now when does exposure not work? When it is already out and they are in an actual relationship. This is because they have voluntarily given up the sizzle they have already laid the ground work to validate their relationship any further revealing will have all the negative aspects of exposure "Love Bank Withdrawal, looking desperate, looking pathetic" with none of the successes "killing the sizzle, adding shame, getting support from friends and family".
> 
> Now if you made it through that I heartily congratulate you I hope it was not as hard to read as it was to write. So given these thoughts of mine I will give my recommendations.
> 
> 1. You cannot do the 180 as he will not go into withdrawals you have only been meeting his EN's for 2 weeks. This gives you nothing to count on a withdrawal from him instead it is more likely he will just enmesh more with the OW.
> 
> 2. Given the above and for the same reason Plan B is out. You have no golden time that is recent enough to get him to go into withdrawal over or to feel nostalgic over.
> 
> 3. You could do the exposure but you will get none of the benefits of it. He has come out to his family and friends if you get into this with them it will only be a he said she said situation that will make you look pathetic and desperate. He has already laid the groundwork for his story your story at this late date will not really be a factor. You will make a massive Love Bank withdrawal for no benefit.
> 
> Well that leaves you with two choices if you want to reconcile you can go Plan A or you can do a combination. I recommend Plan A which you have been doing. And let me add these are things you have gained by doing it.
> 
> 1. He spends more time with you.
> 
> 2. He complains about the OW to you.
> 
> 3. He has made very good signs that he wants to come back.
> 
> 4. He has performed actions indicating his love for you both sexually and in words.
> 
> 5. You have had more conversations with him. More connections with him then you have had in a LONG time.
> 
> 6. You have driven MASSIVE wedges in the affair to the point that the OW is making Love Bank withdrawals daily from him.
> 
> All this progress is justifiably put into doubt by last nights conversation. One talk after he was just whipped by the OW does not take away any of your gains. Wait to see the actions, at this point his words are flighty as his heart and mind fight so he will be all over the place. What he told you is what you will have to overcome it is a realistic and honest portrayal of all his justifications. Once we get these knocked down then we get closer to getting him back.



Thank you so much for this post and all your help and support, CEL. I definitely have to stick with Plan A and definitely agree that it takes an emotional toll on me.

Yes, all this progress sounds awesome but is definitely put into doubt after last night...I'm gonna try to be very fun tomorrow night...gonna surprise him by cleaning the pit and have the coals all ready to light after he gets here after swimming lessons...cuz last Saturday night(it was already pretty late), he said, that was so awesome BBQing Thursday, I wish I could right now but we were out of charcoal and had nothing to cook...it will be a total surprise...

Now, TODAY:

1. He came to swimming lessons as he has everyday this week. We smiled and cheered on our son who swam across the deep end for the first time! I videotaped it and it was great. This is really great because my son developed an anxiety of the deep end and would NOT jump in last year...see 3 years ago, we were at a little league swimming party and he had floaties on and after eating, he forgot he had taken off his floaties jumped into the deep end and almost drowned...I was blessed in that I HAPPENED to be staring right at him and jumped over and grabbed him by the sun shirt as he went down and about 3 Dads jumped to grab me so they could pull me up and out as I pulled him out...it was very traumatizing because I had been chatting and joking and just happened to turn and look at the right moment...H hadn't gone to the party with us and our son was fine albeit scared and I was all bruised up...so seeing our son swim across the deep end was just amazing...it was unspoken awe...

2. He had said that he was going to just pick up shirts and not say so when he said see you at home, we are going out for milkshakes...I don't think you'll still be there when we get home....he looked surprised! And said do you have plans tonight? And I said no...then, he said well, I'll wait...I can stay for a little bit...Not sure how that went...

3. Well, when we got home, he came out to the garage to greet us and we were happy to see him.

4. Then, my son went straight to the shower and then, he called me to the couch cuz he was watching you tube on his phone...and he wanted me to watch...well, it was a comedian complaining about his wife cuz she was asking him why he was in Costa Rica and he was saying None of your business, *****...hahahahah....I said, that's not funny, he is being mean to his wife...I don't like that...he said, are you mad at me? And I said no, I'm sensitive to anti-wife jokes I guess...he said, yeah, let me find another one....so, he did and it was funny and we both laughed.

5. Then, our son got out of shower and came in and they visited for a few minutes and I stepped into kitchen to start cooking and I heard my H tell my son that he had to go but would be at swimming lessons and then come right over to spend the evening with him tomorrow so started kissing him goodnight and telling him he misses him and is proud of him.

6. Then, he came into the kitchen and hugged me with a big sigh...long hug...I waited for the I love you and it didn't come......I didn't say it either cuz I didn't want to sound desperate...

7. Then, he was walking out the door saying his shirts were already in the car and I said the housekeeper wanted me to be sure to tell him to bring back the hangers...then, he said well, I'm coming tomorrow, you heard me tell our son, right, and maybe, Saturday morning, I can take my other shirts that are too big for me off the hangers so she can have those...then, he caught himself and said...that's if I spend the night...I said okay...and he said y'all be cool...and I said okay, goodnight..and he was out the door...


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> There are still some things that an hour or two of advice may benefit you...
> 
> What are you going to do if your stbx wants to leave the country with your child? And he insists he is keeping the passport?
> 
> What are you going to do when your stbx wants you to pay for 100% of your son's college costs.
> 
> What are you going to do when OW wants to take your son to her church or change your son's school.
> 
> and I could go on...
> 
> Most importantly, how can you be sure that your time with your son is protected if you have not had your own representative review the agreement for fairness. A judge will overrule an unfair agreement but it is not that common.
> 
> It is true that I don't know your agreement and it may already cover everything that's important to you. What custody arrangements have you agreed?



I am the custodial parent and he gets the Texas standard visitation...1st, 3rd and 5th weekend every month and 1 month during the summer...every other holiday...

About another school, he will stay in his current private school...college, not covered, out of the country, not covered...

W have talked about how WE are the parents and NO ONE else will parent our child...stepmother or stepfather...but, it is NOT in the agreement....

Church...not covered...our son attends a private, parochial school that is Episcopalian and we are Catholic...she's Baptist...I'm not big on what church he goes to...


----------



## kimmycat

Just in case, anybody is wondering...I am sticking with PLAN A until the divorce is final....that's my final decision...


----------



## turnera

What I see is that CEL offered you what your desperation drove you to want to do - sex him back. She told you it was the best way to win him back. And you were faithfully feeding your husband cake by the shovelful, hoping it would prove you were different. Maybe it did help him see that. But it didn't change his mind. It gave him a huge ego boost for a while, though, until he got so confused he had to get out of the situation.

We can turn this thread into a debate about methods if you want. I can find tons of evidence and hundreds of ex-BSs saying that exposure works, 180 works, Plan B works. But IMO, here's the bottom line: kimmy can't control him and in the end, he may be gone, and she needs to decide if she'll still have her self respect.


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> Just in case, anybody is wondering...I am sticking with PLAN A until the divorce is final....that's my final decision...


 I wish you well. 

Can I ask you to do ONE thing, if you do succeed and get him to come home?

Insist on his passwords, insist on knowing where he is, insist on MC. Don't just let him come home with no consequences; that will teach him he can cheat whenever he feels like it, since you'll do anything to get him back.


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> then, he caught himself and said...that's if I spend the night...I said okay...and he said y'all be cool...and I said okay, goodnight..and he was out the door...


Translation: "I changed my mind, I still might like to use you for sex sometimes, when the OW doesn't feel like it".

A man wanting sex with a woman proves very little. Do you think if he still wants sex with you that makes it less over? No... it just means he's not getting enough, or enough variety, or enough attention. 

It is quite possible what happened tonight was: you cooled off on him a tiny bit, he noticed it, and that made him a little more attracted to you. You became a little bit of a challenge again.

He's getting high on his ego massage on the back of yours and her pain. And the longer the women permit it, the longer it will likely drag on causing heartache all around.


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Thank you so much for this post and all your help and support, CEL. I definitely have to stick with Plan A and definitely agree that it takes an emotional toll on me.
> 
> Yes, all this progress sounds awesome but is definitely put into doubt after last night...I'm gonna try to be very fun tomorrow night...gonna surprise him by cleaning the pit and have the coals all ready to light after he gets here after swimming lessons...cuz last Saturday night(it was already pretty late), he said, that was so awesome BBQing Thursday, I wish I could right now but we were out of charcoal and had nothing to cook...it will be a total surprise...
> 
> Now, TODAY:
> 
> 1. He came to swimming lessons as he has everyday this week. We smiled and cheered on our son who swam across the deep end for the first time! I videotaped it and it was great. This is really great because my son developed an anxiety of the deep end and would NOT jump in last year...see 3 years ago, we were at a little league swimming party and he had floaties on and after eating, he forgot he had taken off his floaties jumped into the deep end and almost drowned...I was blessed in that I HAPPENED to be staring right at him and jumped over and grabbed him by the sun shirt as he went down and about 3 Dads jumped to grab me so they could pull me up and out as I pulled him out...it was very traumatizing because I had been chatting and joking and just happened to turn and look at the right moment...H hadn't gone to the party with us and our son was fine albeit scared and I was all bruised up...so seeing our son swim across the deep end was just amazing...it was unspoken awe...
> 
> 2. He had said that he was going to just pick up shirts and not say so when he said see you at home, we are going out for milkshakes...I don't think you'll still be there when we get home....he looked surprised! And said do you have plans tonight? And I said no...then, he said well, I'll wait...I can stay for a little bit...Not sure how that went...
> 
> 3. Well, when we got home, he came out to the garage to greet us and we were happy to see him.
> 
> 4. Then, my son went straight to the shower and then, he called me to the couch cuz he was watching you tube on his phone...and he wanted me to watch...well, it was a comedian complaining about his wife cuz she was asking him why he was in Costa Rica and he was saying None of your business, *****...hahahahah....I said, that's not funny, he is being mean to his wife...I don't like that...he said, are you mad at me? And I said no, I'm sensitive to anti-wife jokes I guess...he said, yeah, let me find another one....so, he did and it was funny and we both laughed.
> 
> 5. Then, our son got out of shower and came in and they visited for a few minutes and I stepped into kitchen to start cooking and I heard my H tell my son that he had to go but would be at swimming lessons and then come right over to spend the evening with him tomorrow so started kissing him goodnight and telling him he misses him and is proud of him.
> 
> 6. Then, he came into the kitchen and hugged me with a big sigh...long hug...I waited for the I love you and it didn't come......I didn't say it either cuz I didn't want to sound desperate...
> 
> 7. Then, he was walking out the door saying his shirts were already in the car and I said the housekeeper wanted me to be sure to tell him to bring back the hangers...then, he said well, I'm coming tomorrow, you heard me tell our son, right, and maybe, Saturday morning, I can take my other shirts that are too big for me off the hangers so she can have those...then, he caught himself and said...that's if I spend the night...I said okay...and he said y'all be cool...and I said okay, goodnight..and he was out the door...





kimmycat said:


> Thank you so much for this post and all your help and support, CEL. I definitely have to stick with Plan A and definitely agree that it takes an emotional toll on me.
> 
> Yes, all this progress sounds awesome but is definitely put into doubt after last night...I'm gonna try to be very fun tomorrow night...gonna surprise him by cleaning the pit and have the coals all ready to light after he gets here after swimming lessons...cuz last Saturday night(it was already pretty late), he said, that was so awesome BBQing Thursday, I wish I could right now but we were out of charcoal and had nothing to cook...it will be a total surprise...


This sounds AWESOME what a great idea! That is some good thinking I wish it would of been my idea. This is great in so many ways as it brings hits all his EN's and you get to have a great time with YOUR family. I hope it is fun and if you go into it just to have fun with no expectations then you will be fine. You have made a lot of progress look at all the time he is spending with you and this is ALL family time and no matter what you can cherish these times with your family. I am sure your son loves spending time with his parents.



kimmycat said:


> 1. He came to swimming lessons as he has everyday this week. We smiled and cheered on our son who swam across the deep end for the first time! I videotaped it and it was great. This is really great because my son developed an anxiety of the deep end and would NOT jump in last year...see 3 years ago, we were at a little league swimming party and he had floaties on and after eating, he forgot he had taken off his floaties jumped into the deep end and almost drowned...I was blessed in that I HAPPENED to be staring right at him and jumped over and grabbed him by the sun shirt as he went down and about 3 Dads jumped to grab me so they could pull me up and out as I pulled him out...it was very traumatizing because I had been chatting and joking and just happened to turn and look at the right moment...H hadn't gone to the party with us and our son was fine albeit scared and I was all bruised up...so seeing our son swim across the deep end was just amazing...it was unspoken awe...


It is amazing when you see someone overcomes something that has held them back for a long time. When you see their personal growth it is inspiring. You feel the touch of the divine in that moment something great happens when you see someone BECOME something greater than they were. When they find the strength to move beyond their self imposed boundaries. I want you to remember that moment that AWE you had and realize that you have caused the same thing in me. You have overcome YOUR personal boundary. You have faced a destructive behavior and are working through it in many ways you are a role model for you son. When he grows up you will be able to honestly look at him and say that no matter the issue you CAN work through it. You are only as good as you want to be. I know I get sidetracked on helping you get your husband back but understand the growth and steps you have taken are HUGE. Few realize the problems that led to a bad marriage, fewer still have the courage to own up to them in the forthright manner you have, fewer of those are willing to seek help and be as honest as you have. You have a lot to be proud of you really do and I do find you to be inspiring.



kimmycat said:


> 2. He had said that he was going to just pick up shirts and not say so when he said see you at home, we are going out for milkshakes...I don't think you'll still be there when we get home....he looked surprised! And said do you have plans tonight? And I said no...then, he said well, I'll wait...I can stay for a little bit...Not sure how that went...


Here is what I was talking about this is what I want you to do. Stop listening to him. He is confused and well kinda crazy right now see he is dealing with his illness, dealing with his love for you, dealing with the fact that he thinks you can't change, dealing with the divorce, dealing with a crazy OW who is guilt tripping him. He is going to say weird and sometime crazy crap. You know what let it roll off. Observe his ACTIONS. And let that guide you. Consistently he has said things are one way when they are another he just does not know. I do not think he is playing you I think he is genuinely just confused and lost. I do know that the does LOVE you.



kimmycat said:


> 3. Well, when we got home, he came out to the garage to greet us and we were happy to see him.
> 
> 4. Then, my son went straight to the shower and then, he called me to the couch cuz he was watching you tube on his phone...and he wanted me to watch...well, it was a comedian complaining about his wife cuz she was asking him why he was in Costa Rica and he was saying None of your business, *****...hahahahah....I said, that's not funny, he is being mean to his wife...I don't like that...he said, are you mad at me? And I said no, I'm sensitive to anti-wife jokes I guess...he said, yeah, let me find another one....so, he did and it was funny and we both laughed.


Again observe his actions he waited for you. He could of gone back to the OW he did not instead he waited for you. Now lets take the you tube thing I think you handled it very well. But I would of made reference to last night and did the whole Affaircare thing where you take their words and send them back so he knows that those kinds of talks are VERY hurtful to you. Also I would of been honest when asked if you are mad. Remember be HONEST with your feelings I know this is hard to do because you are scared of letting those out but you have a right to your feelings just express them as Affaircare has outlined. When someone asks you how you feel be honest especially if it is your husband. Getting honest feedback from our spouse is the most essential component of a marriage because without reliable intel how can we make decisions? Just follow how Affaircare puts it as she is far smarter than me.



kimmycat said:


> 5. Then, our son got out of shower and came in and they visited for a few minutes and I stepped into kitchen to start cooking and I heard my H tell my son that he had to go but would be at swimming lessons and then come right over to spend the evening with him tomorrow so started kissing him goodnight and telling him he misses him and is proud of him.
> 
> 6. Then, he came into the kitchen and hugged me with a big sigh...long hug...I waited for the I love you and it didn't come......I didn't say it either cuz I didn't want to sound desperate...


I am sure he does miss his son and his wife. I am sure he spends alot of his time with the OW thinking of you guys. I understand the hug part he is still figuring out what is going on. And you did right in not saying I love, he hurt you last night and you have a right to be upset about it. But don't carry this forever the fact that he started saying it before you did was on account of what you were doing including saying I love you. You made good strides say it when you want to say it but give him the opportunity to say it first. Remember Plan A is no expectations you just be your best. But you also don't need to short change yourself. It is a balance just err on the side of YOU.



kimmycat said:


> 7. Then, he was walking out the door saying his shirts were already in the car and I said the housekeeper wanted me to be sure to tell him to bring back the hangers...then, he said well, I'm coming tomorrow, you heard me tell our son, right, and maybe, Saturday morning, I can take my other shirts that are too big for me off the hangers so she can have those...then, he caught himself and said...that's if I spend the night...I said okay...and he said y'all be cool...and I said okay, goodnight..and he was out the door...


So lets get this right you will see him tomorrow. You will see him Saturday. And he is ALREADY backsliding on the whole no more overnight stays? Ummm like I said look at his ACTIONS not his words. Last night he through you off your game time to get back in the ring. It even sounds like he is planning on staying over ALREADY. Now no expectations so just see how it is. But you are already meeting his EN's and he is extending you opportunities to meet more of them. The only fall back that I see is the I love yous and the kissing. 

So my recommendations are go back to Plan A stuff. Yes last night was bad but the only actions that have changed are the same ones I would see if you guys had a fight not the pulling away I would expect if he was serious. So start that texting again and forging those connections. Also call the MIL and talk to her tell her happy birthday see if she is willing to talk about your marriage be honest that you want to work on it with him. This is optional depending on how your relationship is.

Your doing good Kimmy in your situation it is common to focus only on the bad and not see the positive. Oh and if you need to do the big cry tonight give yourself the permission to do it.


----------



## turnera

GetTough said:


> It is quite possible what happened tonight was: you cooled off on him a tiny bit, he noticed it, and that made him a little more attracted to you. You became a little bit of a challenge again.


Bingo.

It's the psychology.


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> I am the custodial parent and he gets the Texas standard visitation...1st, 3rd and 5th weekend every month and 1 month during the summer...every other holiday...
> 
> About another school, he will stay in his current private school...college, not covered, out of the country, not covered...
> 
> W have talked about how WE are the parents and NO ONE else will parent our child...stepmother or stepfather...but, it is NOT in the agreement....
> 
> Church...not covered...our son attends a private, parochial school that is Episcopalian and we are Catholic...she's Baptist...I'm not big on what church he goes to...


It sounds like you have a lot of time with your son, that is awesome. I would still have a professional review your agreement while you still have time to do so. Its not final until the judge signs off on it, even if you have signed it already. It may be hard to change now, but still a LOT easier now than after the judge signs off on it.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> This sounds AWESOME what a great idea! That is some good thinking I wish it would of been my idea. This is great in so many ways as it brings hits all his EN's and you get to have a great time with YOUR family. I hope it is fun and if you go into it just to have fun with no expectations then you will be fine. You have made a lot of progress look at all the time he is spending with you and this is ALL family time and no matter what you can cherish these times with your family. I am sure your son loves spending time with his parents.


Yes, I am excited about this idea...I will just try to enjoy being in the present moment with my family doing something that I know he will like...something that will also help him stop thinking about his illness for awhile...




CEL said:


> It is amazing when you see someone overcomes something that has held them back for a long time. When you see their personal growth it is inspiring. You feel the touch of the divine in that moment something great happens when you see someone BECOME something greater than they were. When they find the strength to move beyond their self imposed boundaries. I want you to remember that moment that AWE you had and realize that you have caused the same thing in me. You have overcome YOUR personal boundary. You have faced a destructive behavior and are working through it in many ways you are a role model for you son. When he grows up you will be able to honestly look at him and say that no matter the issue you CAN work through it. You are only as good as you want to be. I know I get sidetracked on helping you get your husband back but understand the growth and steps you have taken are HUGE. Few realize the problems that led to a bad marriage, fewer still have the courage to own up to them in the forthright manner you have, fewer of those are willing to seek help and be as honest as you have. You have a lot to be proud of you really do and I do find you to be inspiring.


It was amazing to see our son achieve that and we are so proud of him...

I am trying to so hard to understand how I could have shut him out for 4 years and now, am broken open...it took him filing for divorce and really opening up and caring for me Mother's Day for me to see him as he really is, the love of my life...it's killing me that I didn't appreciate him when I had him...I know it was more than just the miscarriage, so much more, like the angry outbursts when he would drink too much and before my miscarriage or even that pregnancy, he had an EA (albeit short and unconfirmed) and he said that it was a woman that he had been "talking to" while I was off staying at a beach for 17 days but, she got a psycho crush on him and he cut it and I believed him BUT, I SHUT DOWN months later after my miscarriage and I now REALIZE that he quit drinking and took the high road trying for YEARS to reach me WHILE I SHUT HIM OUT...I have learned so much from YOU and the books I have read (recommended by YOU) and now, understand that shutting down to him was wrong and that I am going to be better in my future relationships because of everything I have learned and THIS PAIN I am feeling that I have lost my H...I just truly hope get to have my next relationship with HIM...time will tell...your help here is inspiring, too and I thank you soooo much....




CEL said:


> Here is what I was talking about this is what I want you to do. Stop listening to him. He is confused and well kinda crazy right now see he is dealing with his illness, dealing with his love for you, dealing with the fact that he thinks you can't change, dealing with the divorce, dealing with a crazy OW who is guilt tripping him. He is going to say weird and sometime crazy crap. You know what let it roll off. Observe his ACTIONS. And let that guide you. Consistently he has said things are one way when they are another he just does not know. I do not think he is playing you I think he is genuinely just confused and lost. I do know that the does LOVE you.


I definitely think he is lost and so confused, especially after we have lived basically separate personal lives for 4 years...only coming together for family things...I had thought and talked to friends over those 4 years about how I didn't want to divorce because I didn't want my son to be from a broken home but was worried he was not seeing an affectionate, loving relationship between H and W...I was lost AND NOW, I know that my son would be able to see that kind of loving relationship between his own parents, if I get the chance to reconcile...




CEL said:


> Again observe his actions he waited for you. He could of gone back to the OW he did not instead he waited for you. Now lets take the you tube thing I think you handled it very well. But I would of made reference to last night and did the whole Affaircare thing where you take their words and send them back so he knows that those kinds of talks are VERY hurtful to you. Also I would of been honest when asked if you are mad. Remember be HONEST with your feelings I know this is hard to do because you are scared of letting those out but you have a right to your feelings just express them as Affaircare has outlined. When someone asks you how you feel be honest especially if it is your husband. Getting honest feedback from our spouse is the most essential component of a marriage because without reliable intel how can we make decisions? Just follow how Affaircare puts it as she is far smarter than me.


You're right, I said I wasn't mad at him...well, I'm not mad at him, I'm just disappointed about last evening's conversation...but, I was no honest about my feelings and he could tell that it wasn't just about the comedian...I had no idea what to say without having to hear him tell me about how he is not coming back because he cannot risk it again...but, yes, I was hiding my feelings and not too well, since he caught on and ASKED ME...I am going to go back and read Affaircare's posts...thank you for pointing that out...




CEL said:


> I am sure he does miss his son and his wife. I am sure he spends alot of his time with the OW thinking of you guys. I understand the hug part he is still figuring out what is going on. And you did right in not saying I love, he hurt you last night and you have a right to be upset about it. But don't carry this forever the fact that he started saying it before you did was on account of what you were doing including saying I love you. You made good strides say it when you want to say it but give him the opportunity to say it first. Remember Plan A is no expectations you just be your best. But you also don't need to short change yourself. It is a balance just err on the side of YOU.


No expectations, just be my best...hopefully, tomorrow will give opportunities for us both to say I love you and be loving...



CEL said:


> So lets get this right you will see him tomorrow. You will see him Saturday. And he is ALREADY backsliding on the whole no more overnight stays? Ummm like I said look at his ACTIONS not his words. Last night he through you off your game time to get back in the ring. It even sounds like he is planning on staying over ALREADY. Now no expectations so just see how it is. But you are already meeting his EN's and he is extending you opportunities to meet more of them. The only fall back that I see is the I love yous and the kissing.


Yes, I will see him tomorrow and part of Sat. I am going to keep my IC appointment cuz I really need it! I am going to look at his ACTIONS and let my ACTIONS show him I love him and that I am OPEN and staying OPEN.



CEL said:


> So my recommendations are go back to Plan A stuff. Yes last night was bad but the only actions that have changed are the same ones I would see if you guys had a fight not the pulling away I would expect if he was serious. So start that texting again and forging those connections. Also call the MIL and talk to her tell her happy birthday see if she is willing to talk about your marriage be honest that you want to work on it with him. This is optional depending on how your relationship is.


I will send a nice text tomorrow...I didn't call MIL because we are not close...I did text her Happy Birthday this morning and I got no response all day...she lives in town and I rarely see her...



CEL said:


> Your doing good Kimmy in your situation it is common to focus only on the bad and not see the positive. Oh and if you need to do the big cry tonight give yourself the permission to do it.


I am definitely focusing on the bad...trying to see the good when I can...not sure about the cry tonight, feeling a little better...maybe...

Again, thank you sooooo much!!!!!!!!!


----------



## kimmycat

CEL, tried you're posting method and it worked!!!!!!


----------



## CEL

When faced with a dilemma there is one true way to always do the right thing just ask yourself this simple yet profound question.......What would Sheldon do?


----------



## kokonatsu

kimmycat said:


> I am trying to so hard to understand how I could have shut him out for 4 years and now, am broken open...it took him filing for divorce and really opening up and caring for me Mother's Day for me to see him as he really is, the love of my life...it's killing me that I didn't appreciate him when I had him...I know it was more than just the miscarriage, so much more, like the angry outbursts when he would drink too much and before my miscarriage or even that pregnancy, he had an EA (albeit short and unconfirmed) and he said that it was a woman that he had been "talking to" while I was off staying at a beach for 17 days but, she got a psycho crush on him and he cut it and I believed him BUT, I SHUT DOWN months later after my miscarriage and I now REALIZE that he quit drinking and took the high road trying for YEARS to reach me WHILE I SHUT HIM OUT...I have learned so much from YOU and the books I have read (recommended by YOU) and now, understand that shutting down to him was wrong and that I am going to be better in my future relationships because of everything I have learned and THIS PAIN I am feeling that I have lost my H...I just truly hope get to have my next relationship with HIM...time will tell...your help here is inspiring, too and I thank you soooo much....
> 
> You're right, I said I wasn't mad at him...well, I'm not mad at him, I'm just disappointed about last evening's conversation...but, I was no honest about my feelings and he could tell that it wasn't just about the comedian...I had no idea what to say without having to hear him tell me about how he is not coming back because he cannot risk it again...but, yes, I was hiding my feelings and not too well, since he caught on and ASKED ME...I am going to go back and read Affaircare's posts...thank you for pointing that out...



I recently watched a TED talk on vulnerablity by Brene Brown. I thought of it while I was reading this post. Also it's something I've been learning a lot this past year with my roommate and my boyfriend: It's so much easier to be vulnerable when I have a safe place to share it, where I know that whomever I'm sharing it with will still love me and accept me even after I share my deepest thoughts. 

I learned not to from my mom to keep things bottled inside me, but she would not deal with it well, and I never wanted to be like that. But I couldn't be vulnerable with just anyone. I've been burned recently by close friends (well, I thought they were friends...) and that has hindered me from sharing too -- even with those closest to me. But I'm trying to be brave and be vulnerable anyway, because I want to have an authentic life. 

Anyway, I'm starting to ramble. You can watch this video if you want, you don't have to, but I wanted to share it anyway. Brown makes very insightful points about vulnerability. When we allow ourselves to be vulnerable with those who truly love us, we have authentic life. 

Kimmycat, you have nothing to be ashamed about. We all deal with our hardships in different ways, and i'm never going to say shutting your husband out was right, but in being vulnerable with him, what can you lose? I really encourage you to open up with him and be authentic with him. 

Brené Brown: The power of vulnerability | Video on TED.com


----------



## kimmycat

kokonatsu said:


> I recently watched a TED talk on vulnerablity by Brene Brown. I thought of it while I was reading this post. Also it's something I've been learning a lot this past year with my roommate and my boyfriend: It's so much easier to be vulnerable when I have a safe place to share it, where I know that whomever I'm sharing it with will still love me and accept me even after I share my deepest thoughts.
> 
> I learned not to from my mom to keep things bottled inside me, but she would not deal with it well, and I never wanted to be like that. But I couldn't be vulnerable with just anyone. I've been burned recently by close friends (well, I thought they were friends...) and that has hindered me from sharing too -- even with those closest to me. But I'm trying to be brave and be vulnerable anyway, because I want to have an authentic life.
> 
> Anyway, I'm starting to ramble. You can watch this video if you want, you don't have to, but I wanted to share it anyway. Brown makes very insightful points about vulnerability. When we allow ourselves to be vulnerable with those who truly love us, we have authentic life.
> 
> Kimmycat, you have nothing to be ashamed about. We all deal with our hardships in different ways, and i'm never going to say shutting your husband out was right, but in being vulnerable with him, what can you lose? I really encourage you to open up with him and be authentic with him.
> 
> Brené Brown: The power of vulnerability | Video on TED.com


Thank you for sharing this video...it was very insightful and so relevant to my current situation...I'm definitely going to try to be more vulnerable...


----------



## CEL

Kimmy thought you might like this if you have not already seen it. The cast of Big Bang doing Rocky Horror Time Warp. If you have not seen it and your husband is nice you could show him too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxlwJ-6Dq9g&feature=youtube_gdata_player


----------



## CEL

kokonatsu said:


> I recently watched a TED talk on vulnerablity by Brene Brown. I thought of it while I was reading this post. Also it's something I've been learning a lot this past year with my roommate and my boyfriend: It's so much easier to be vulnerable when I have a safe place to share it, where I know that whomever I'm sharing it with will still love me and accept me even after I share my deepest thoughts.
> 
> I learned not to from my mom to keep things bottled inside me, but she would not deal with it well, and I never wanted to be like that. But I couldn't be vulnerable with just anyone. I've been burned recently by close friends (well, I thought they were friends...) and that has hindered me from sharing too -- even with those closest to me. But I'm trying to be brave and be vulnerable anyway, because I want to have an authentic life.
> 
> Anyway, I'm starting to ramble. You can watch this video if you want, you don't have to, but I wanted to share it anyway. Brown makes very insightful points about vulnerability. When we allow ourselves to be vulnerable with those who truly love us, we have authentic life.
> 
> Kimmycat, you have nothing to be ashamed about. We all deal with our hardships in different ways, and i'm never going to say shutting your husband out was right, but in being vulnerable with him, what can you lose? I really encourage you to open up with him and be authentic with him.
> 
> Brené Brown: The power of vulnerability | Video on TED.com



Powerful advice and I cannot agree with you more. Ultimately being vulnerable is the only way to have an authentic life. Hiding our emotions and putting on a front is all deception who wants to be lied to everyday in a relationship? Very hard to do but a goal I strive for every day, just one moment at a time. Thank you for posting this was awesome.


----------



## GetTough

I think she should authentically move on to someone who loves her!!


----------



## kokonatsu

GetTough said:


> I think she should authentically move on to someone who loves her!!


Yeah, but, if she loves her husband, and wants him back, and he can find it in himself to give her a second chance, they could have an amazing new marriage. She should give what she wants all she can until either of them says "no, it's too much," then she should move on. 

I hope you have a wonderful weekend Kimmycat!


----------



## GetTough

kokonatsu said:


> ...until either of them says "no, it's too much," then she should move on.


Well let's see...

getting another woman,
having her uproot her life for him,
making a new home with her,
wanting to introduce his son to her,
filing for divorce and signing off on it,
telling BS he doesn't want to spend the night anymore

how many more ways can a guy give a hint?

Do you think he wants to tell her "leave me alone, I don't love you anymore", because that is where this is heading.

The problem is he is probably genuinely confused and has moments when he does want sex and does feel attachment and does want to express that. So he tells her he loves her and he might even mean it, but that doesn't make it true. His actions speak too loudly.


----------



## kokonatsu

GetTough said:


> Well let's see...
> 
> getting another woman,
> having her uproot her life for him,
> making a new home with her,
> wanting to introduce his son to her,
> filing for divorce and signing off on it,
> telling BS he doesn't want to spend the night anymore
> 
> how many more ways can a guy give a hint?
> 
> Do you think he wants to tell her "leave me alone, I don't love you anymore", because that is where this is heading.
> 
> The problem is he is probably genuinely confused and has moments when he does want sex and does feel attachment and does want to express that. So he tells her he loves her and he might even mean it, but that doesn't make it true. His actions speak too loudly.


yes, i agree with you, except for one thing. What was the reason he sought another woman? Because his wife shut him out for four years. Once she realized her mistake, and made positive changes, he has made positive responses. This is not a black and white situation because of that, imo.

honestly, I wouldn't be able to do what kimmycat is doing. I would say something along the lines of, "if you want to work on this marriage with me, get rid of OW and give me a second chance. You can see I've made changes, I love you, I want you back. But I can't do it with another woman in the picture." 

Anyway, kimmycat is learning so much about herself and about her relationships, it's going to give her some good in the end, regardless of what she and her husband decide about their future.


----------



## turnera

kokonatsu said:


> Yeah, but, if she loves her husband, and wants him back, and he can find it in himself to give her a second chance


Say what?

I swear to God, this is the first thread I've read in about 12 years where the consensus is to get the BETRAYED spouse to beg the WAYWARD spouse to give them another chance, not the other way around.

Emotional/sexual withdrawal from a marriage is a bad thing, I get that.

But good grief - this man is CHEATING. He is LIVING with another woman. AND he is boinking his wife ON THE SIDE.

When is someone going to suggest getting HIM to earn HER back?


----------



## PBear

kokonatsu said:


> yes, i agree with you, except for one thing. What was the reason he sought another woman? Because his wife shut him out for four years. Once she realized her mistake, and made positive changes, he has made positive responses. This is not a black and white situation because of that, imo.
> 
> honestly, I wouldn't be able to do what kimmycat is doing. I would say something along the lines of, "if you want to work on this marriage with me, get rid of OW and give me a second chance. You can see I've made changes, I love you, I want you back. But I can't do it with another woman in the picture."
> 
> Anyway, kimmycat is learning so much about herself and about her relationships, it's going to give her some good in the end, regardless of what she and her husband decide about their future.


I guess your idea of "positive change" (on the part of the husband) are different than mine. I just see someone who came over for food, laundry service, and a roll in the hay. Maybe a little ego boost too, to have his STBX giving him everything while he enjoyed similar services from the GF. But when his GF called him on his BS, guess which way the reed bent?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kokonatsu

PBear said:


> I guess your idea of "positive change" (on the part of the husband) are different than mine. I just see someone who came over for food, laundry service, and a roll in the hay. Maybe a little ego boost too, to have his STBX giving him everything while he enjoyed similar services from the GF. But when his GF called him on his BS, guess which way the reed bent?
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



well, obviously, when you put it that way... but what would you do if you were in his shoes?


----------



## turnera

kokonatsu said:


> well, obviously, when you put it that way... but what would you do if you were in his shoes?


Try to scrap together the tiniest bit of dignity and character he has left and choose ONE woman or the other?


----------



## PBear

kokonatsu said:


> well, obviously, when you put it that way... but what would you do if you were in his shoes?


Don't think that's the point... He's not the one in here posting. If he was, we would have told him to stop straddling the fence, and jump one way or the other, as well as lambasting him for cheating on both women.

What would I have done in Kimmycat's shoes? I would do as I've suggested in here before. Cut off sex in particular. She couldn't stop him from seeing his son with whomever he wanted, so that battle would be over before it started (which was, BTW, the original question). But stand up and maintain her dignity. By not letting him have his cake and eat it too, he would have, if nothing else, been forced to make his decision much earlier.

C


----------



## lenzi

turnera said:


> When is someone going to suggest getting HIM to earn HER back?


That won't work in this case. He's already moved on, he's living with another woman, filed for divorce and it's almost final. She can't make any demands of him, he'll just shut her out completely and she knows it. She's holding on by a thread and she's trying to "nice" him back using sex and trying to prove she's the better choice of the two women, both who are willing to share him and take whatever attention he chooses to bestow on them at any given time that may suit his own particular needs. It's rather sad, and ultimately that sort of strategy is bound for complete failure because let's face it, we don't want to be with a person who we don't respect, and when a person allows themselves to be treated as "second best", well..there's just nothing left to save here.


----------



## turnera

Unfortunately, kimmy will only listen to the poster who tells her what she wants to hear, not the ones who know from experience what human nature drives people to do.

We want what we can't have, and we abuse what comes easily.


----------



## GetTough

lenzi said:


> That won't work in this case. He's already moved on, he's living with another woman, filed for divorce and it's almost final. She can't make any demands of him, he'll just shut her out completely and she knows it. She's holding on by a thread and she's trying to "nice" him back using sex and trying to prove she's the better choice of the two women, both who are willing to share him and take whatever attention he chooses to bestow on them at any given time that may suit his own particular needs. It's rather sad, and ultimately that sort of strategy is bound for complete failure because let's face it, we don't want to be with a person who we don't respect, and when a person allows themselves to be treated as "second best", well..there's just nothing left to save here.


It won't solve everything immediately but it stands a heck of a lot better chance in the long run, not for her to make demands but simply to move on and be less available.


----------



## lenzi

GetTough said:


> It won't solve everything immediately but it stands a heck of a lot better chance in the long run, not for her to make demands but simply to move on and be less available.


So what are you saying.. she should continue bending over backwards trying to win him back, or she should move on and be less available without making demands?

I don't think either one of those are good options, if I was him I'd find her much more attractive and be much more inclined to try to work things out if she treated herself with as much self respect as she gave her cheating husband.


----------



## turnera

kimmy, the ONE thing I think you really need is a good wakeup call to realize you have no control over him and your actions are not a trick to get him back. 

I have NEVER seen a wayward come back without HIM coming back in remorse, who has (1) stayed or (2) not cheated again.

I see NO action on your part to show him you are appalled at his cheating, offended by it, and ANGRY at him. He will never learn remorse if you are so busy kissing his ass that he never has to look at his own actions.


----------



## lenzi

^ Exactly. This guy is screwing two women, who are enabling his behavior and validating it. It's like polygamy. He's got no reason to do anything else except maybe add another woman to the mix.

It's like a dysfunctional carnival game, but the winner doesn't go home with the large stuffed animal.


----------



## GetTough

lenzi said:


> So what are you saying.. she should continue bending over backwards trying to win him back, or she should move on and be less available without making demands?
> 
> I don't think either one of those are good options, if I was him I'd find her much more attractive and be much more inclined to try to work things out if she treated herself with as much self respect as she gave her cheating husband.


I'm saying that she would be acting in her own best interests to move on and be less available, and not (at this point in time) demand anything from him as a condition of resurrecting their relationship, because not only is she in no position to do so right now, but more importantly she would be better off not even wanting a resurrection of their relationship at this time.

She's not in a position to negotiate (e.g. him dumping OW) until he actually wants to try on the marriage again. One has to put the horse before the cart. She's effectively been trying to get him to dump OW before he even wants to try again on the marriage. There is no way that can work. He has to want to try again first. That means he's got to feel like (a) they could potentially have a great relationship again and (b) the relationship with OW looks less appealing and (c) he's probably losing Kimmy.


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## Hortensia

Like mostly everyone else, I'm not a fan of his cake-eating attitude, at all. It went as far as questioning who is legitimate and who is the OW, so messed up all this has become ! But looking at what options Kimmy has :

1. Cut sex with him, withdraw herself and decide to only talk about the child and proceed with the divorce. That will not help her get him back, or him see her as a challenge - he has been challenged long enough, for sure he's tired of that. If she withdraws and changes now, he will go forward with the divorce. He will become serious with the OW, possibly getting married to her and have kids with her. Once that happens, Kimmy would have no more chance at R, ever. And what Kimmy wants is get her husband back.

2. Continue with what she's doing. It has high chances of paying off, with enough patience and perseverence. The only problem, with all the cake-eating rugswept, the guy will grew over confident. He'll know she loves him and wants him that much, that even if he slept with other women she still would fight to keep him. So, he will have no problem having future affairs on her, well aware that she won't kick his behind to the curb, but fight to keep him, even become an even better wife with each OW he'll have. Unfortunately, she will have lost all her power in the relationship - if she hasn't lost it already. And the only way to get that power back is to act in a way that she will lose him forever. 

This is a tough situation to give advice. I would just suggest, Kimmy, that you weight both scenarios very carefully. See which outcome you couldn't bear, and which you think you can handle. If keeping him is what you want, what makes you happy, then do so, but know that further problems may arise, because you will have lost all power. ( telling you this from experience)


----------



## turnera

Hortensia said:


> And the only way to get that power back is to act in a way that she will lose him forever.


Correction: Act in a way that MAY lose him forever.

I've seen many many spouses who quit allowing the cake eating, who say her or me, I respect myself too much to be your dish on the side, and, once she does that....he understands. He SEES that he has been treating his wife like a hooker...and stops. Respects her as he once did. And WANTS her again - on HER terms.

Unfortunately, kimmy has NO TERMS.


----------



## kimmycat

Update: still continuing Plan A.

He stayed the whole weekend...it was such an awesome weekend and even Saturday morning, he said he wouldn't be staying Saturday night...he took our son to a birthday party evening 6-9 PM and when they returned, he just stayed and stayed...

Okay...on Saturday, he admitted OW was out of town...so, I know that is why he stayed the whole weekend. He left today around 1:15...

I didn't get the idea that he is closer to coming home...but, we got along very well all weekend...

At my IC appointment, I had a realization that I shared with him when I returned and told him that this realization was going to help me deal with it so I don't do it anymore...he just was surprised and said oh. But, today, he said, you have had 2 counseling sessions and you are making progress, that's good...he also added that the has been a lot of pain..a little bit different than how he usually talks about it but, I don't see it as necessarily closer to coming home...

Realization at IC appointment:

Shutting down has been a way I deal with problems my whole adult life! I didn't speak to my father for 9 years, then, he gave me away at my wedding and then, spoke to him 1 time per year or less for about 8 MORE years...now, I call him EVERY night and we are very close (the last 2 years)...about 14 years ago, I lost a job and then, withdrew for about a year and became almost agoraphobic but took St. John's Wort and snapped out of it...I didn't speak to my BFF of childhood several times for about 3 years and again, for about 5 years. CONCLUSION: I shutdown when things get bad for very long periods of time. I don't know how I am going to be able to make that not be my coping mechanism but am continuing my counseling for help...

I didn't get I love yous first, but I said it anyway and got I love you toos...feeling sad about that...


----------



## GetTough

Hortensia said:


> Like mostly everyone else, I'm not a fan of his cake-eating attitude, at all. It went as far as questioning who is legitimate and who is the OW, so messed up all this has become ! But looking at what options Kimmy has :
> 
> 1. Cut sex with him, withdraw herself and decide to only talk about the child and proceed with the divorce. That will not help her get him back, or him see her as a challenge - he has been challenged long enough, for sure he's tired of that.
> 
> *Well we already saw that as soon as she cooled off a little, he was talking about staying overnights again. I think you confuse the meaning of the word challenge. There is a difference between a standoff in a relationship and the game of dating.*
> 
> 
> If she withdraws and changes now, he will go forward with the divorce.
> 
> *Possibly, but not necessarily.*
> 
> He will become serious with the OW, possibly getting married to her and have kids with her.
> 
> *Possibly, but not necessarily.*
> 
> Once that happens, Kimmy would have no more chance at R, ever.
> 
> *This simply isn't true.*
> 
> And what Kimmy wants is get her husband back.
> 
> 2. Continue with what she's doing. It has high chances of paying off, with enough patience and perseverence.
> 
> *I disagree, and even if she wins, she will win little, as you readily admit yourself below...*
> 
> The only problem, with all the cake-eating rugswept, the guy will grew over confident. He'll know she loves him and wants him that much, that even if he slept with other women she still would fight to keep him. So, he will have no problem having future affairs on her, well aware that she won't kick his behind to the curb, but fight to keep him, even become an even better wife with each OW he'll have. Unfortunately, she will have lost all her power in the relationship - if she hasn't lost it already. And the only way to get that power back is to act in a way that she will lose him forever.
> 
> This is a tough situation to give advice. I would just suggest, Kimmy, that you weight both scenarios very carefully. See which outcome you couldn't bear, and which you think you can handle. If keeping him is what you want, what makes you happy, then do so, but know that further problems may arise, because you will have lost all power. ( telling you this from experience)


----------



## CEL

You can only fix what you understand. Take a step back that defense mechanism has been with you a long time hiding in the shadows sabotaging your life. Now that you see it you can fight oh you will still have bad times with it but now you will see it and be able to confront it. That's a huge step for you. Congratulations on both the weekend and the IC!


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## CEL

Remember that post you made a while back in her wanting him to go with her back there? And him saying he was unsure and it would be better if she went alone. Well she went on her own because he decided he wanted to be with you. 

Remember look at his actions words lie actions are the truth.


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## kimmycat

Feeling hopeless and down...don't know what to do...I just want my H to come home and make it all better...wishing, praying, waiting, just can't seem to see the way, today...restless, sad, tired, lonely...he's not calling, I'm not calling...

The reality of it all is setting in...

1. He is actually living with another woman...she left town last weekend and I think he missed her and it worked to rekindle something there...

2. We had a beautiful weekend but, he was a little different Saaturday night, a little distant, more friendly than flirty...

3. Starting to just think that we have no chance unless he makes a decision and soon...we just can't have a chance while he is living with someone else.

4. He has said things are not going well over there but, how long does it have to go on before he realizes what he wants? 

5. I guess I am going to have to wait and see if the divorce will be final in August...starting to feel real anxiety about that.

6. My son goes back to school and I go back to work on August 19th...that is going to be hard to deal with...I start work at 7:30 and he starts school at 8:00...we had planned on me dropping him off at his place at 7:00 but, the he will have to meet OW...so that is looming closer...


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## karole

He isn't going to make a decision until either you or the OW tell him to sh*t or get off the pot - it's one or the other, but not both.


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> 4. He has said things are not going well over there


That's what cheaters _always_ tell their affair partner about the woman back home. That's how they get the sympathy sex. 

Unfortunately, YOU are the one being lied to, YOU are the affair partner in this little scenario. SHE is the one 'at home.'


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## TheCuriousWife

I have nothing helpful to add to what has already been said.

The entire situation is so sad to me.

Your a much different person than me, and much more compassionate.

I could never do what your doing. I'm too selfish to share my man.

On day one I would have told him to drop the OW or get his rear out of my life. 

I wish you the best of luck, and and hope whatever ending turns out that it is the best for you and your child.  I will be praying.


----------



## kimmycat

TheCuriousWife said:


> I have nothing helpful to add to what has already been said.
> 
> The entire situation is so sad to me.
> 
> Your a much different person than me, and much more compassionate.
> 
> I could never do what your doing. I'm too selfish to share my man.
> 
> On day one I would have told him to drop the OW or get his rear out of my life.
> 
> I wish you the best of luck, and and hope whatever ending turns out that it is the best for you and your child.  I will be praying.


Thank you...all prayers are welcome and needed!


----------



## LetDownNTX

kimmycat said:


> 3. Starting to just think that we have no chance unless he makes a decision and soon...we just can't have a chance while he is living with someone else.
> 
> 4. He has said things are not going well over there but, how long does it have to go on before he realizes what he wants?
> 
> 
> 6. My son goes back to school and I go back to work on August 19th...that is going to be hard to deal with...I start work at 7:30 and he starts school at 8:00...we had planned on me dropping him off at his place at 7:00 but, the he will have to meet OW...so that is looming closer...



Nothing will change until one of you forces a change. I did the same thing you are doing. When I left the divorce papers out on the counter he realized I was serious and within a couple of days he was begging to come home again.

He will tell you whatever he can, just as he is telling you, to keep you both confused. He probably does have feelings for both of you, he probably does feel guilty about her coming here, he probably does wonder if you will go back to the way you used to be but he's never going to know the answer to any of those until he makes a decision and holds to it and he will never make a decision as long as he is having his cake and eating it too.

For the sake of your child, I hope that if August comes and he gets introduced to the woman that you will not allow your H to keep coming over and playing house with you and your son. It will be a total mind fvck for your child and he doesnt deserve that!


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## karole

Kimmy, how much longer are you willing to live in limbo?


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## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Feeling hopeless and down...don't know what to do...I just want my H to come home and make it all better...wishing, praying, waiting, just can't seem to see the way, today...restless, sad, tired, lonely...he's not calling, I'm not calling...
> 
> The reality of it all is setting in...
> 
> 1. He is actually living with another woman...she left town last weekend and I think he missed her and it worked to rekindle something there...
> 
> 2. We had a beautiful weekend but, he was a little different Saaturday night, a little distant, more friendly than flirty...
> 
> 3. Starting to just think that we have no chance unless he makes a decision and soon...we just can't have a chance while he is living with someone else.
> 
> 4. He has said things are not going well over there but, how long does it have to go on before he realizes what he wants?
> 
> 5. I guess I am going to have to wait and see if the divorce will be final in August...starting to feel real anxiety about that.
> 
> 6. My son goes back to school and I go back to work on August 19th...that is going to be hard to deal with...I start work at 7:30 and he starts school at 8:00...we had planned on me dropping him off at his place at 7:00 but, the he will have to meet OW...so that is looming closer...



I am sorry Kimmy that you are having a rough day I could kind of see it in your post last night it was very terse. So lets take this from the most important thing. You are not to blame in this. You have owned up to your problems and are working on them. You have been a champ and have shown him how you want the marriage to be. You are beautiful and wonderful women. A great mother and a compassionate partner. Yes you made mistakes but at this moment you are owning them and are working on them. I know you are sad and right now you feel that there is no hope. I can't promise you will get him back if I could make it happen I would. What I can promise is that as sad and lonely as you feel right now it is only temporary. You WILL find love again either with him if he is lucky and pulls his head out of his azz or with some other lucky guy. You will feel happy again. You will once again be the center of a mans life a person who when he looks at you he sees his happiness. A man that really cannot live without you. This is what you deserve and you WILL have it. This is just like the night it gives into the day this is only a phase you will not have to endure it forever. I think you are a great person and YOU will find other men that think that way as well. No matter what you should always keep in mind that you are special person and the best thing that ever happened to him if he is willing to let that go then HE does not DESERVE YOU.

Now lets talk about your worries



kimmycat said:


> The reality of it all is setting in..
> 
> 1. He is actually living with another woman...she left town last weekend and I think he missed her and it worked to rekindle something there...


This is not reality oh it may be in the future but it is not today. This is your fear of what may happen. Tell me why you think this? And if you want to talk to him pick up the phone and talk to him. The only thing you have to lose is your fear. If you want to talk to him then DO IT. Lets talk about this we have counseled you to avoid the relationship talk for a reason and that is that it is a Love Buster. But if you need to do this then do it just read back through the books on how to do it respecfully. If you feel you need to lay out that you love him, that you feel that your family is worth a second shot.That you feel that he is throwing away your family for a relationship that is already on the rocks. Then YOU DO IT. Just follow Affaircares advice on how to bring it up.



kimmycat said:


> 2. We had a beautiful weekend but, he was a little different Saaturday night, a little distant, more friendly than flirty...


You are projecting you fears onto the weekend. The fact is that he chose to spend it with you not the OW. You know she wanted him to and he decided to spend it with you. Don't let a good sign like that be dragged down. Right now your mind is working overtime to show you nothing but despair and darkness. Well it is wrong you may not get him back but that does not mean you can't enjoy the last weeks of your marriage. Or you may get him back in which case all this pain is for nothing. Your mind is not your friend. I am your friend trust me when I say that things no matter what are going to be okay for you. No matter what you will not lose your son or your wonderful self and those are the most precious things you have.



kimmycat said:


> 3. Starting to just think that we have no chance unless he makes a decision and soon...we just can't have a chance while he is living with someone else.


You will get a decision in August and that will be the final one. Either he is all in or he is OUT. You DO have a chance you MADE a chance for yourself and are continuing to do that. How happy do you think the OW would be if you decided to stop fighting? And him living with her has it advantages for YOU. I know this is hard but he was living with you when he left you. The point is that this is a 50/50 thing him living with her is helping you as it makes that relationship REAL not base on a fantasy it is much harder to fight a fantasy. Right now you may be seeing him be less flirty with you but at the same time he is spending more time with you. Why? Because he has not made a decision yet. Again you may lose him but at the end of this either way you will have no regrets. You will have no doubt you fought for you marriage. You will know you did EVERYTHING you could do.



kimmycat said:


> 4. He has said things are not going well over there but, how long does it have to go on before he realizes what he wants?


August he is going to run this out to the end. This is his one chance to decide he knows you will not go beyond this point and he knows the OW will not. So he has to decide. He knows it, you know it, OW knows it. You are all racing for that date. By the way find out the exact date because before that day if it comes to that we need to talk about boundaries that you will be setting for him.Once you get to that point we change focus to just YOU. 



kimmycat said:


> 5. I guess I am going to have to wait and see if the divorce will be final in August...starting to feel real anxiety about that.


Here is what I want you to do. In August either way you start a NEW life either it will be with him or without him. I want you to make two lists each with 10 things. These are all good things one is if you get him back the other is if you don't. This is to change your view of this right now you look at it as the end of something. Understand the old marriage is dead now you can either have a new one of you get a new life. August will be your life's rebirth either way.



kimmycat said:


> 6. My son goes back to school and I go back to work on August 19th...that is going to be hard to deal with...I start work at 7:30 and he starts school at 8:00...we had planned on me dropping him off at his place at 7:00 but, the he will have to meet OW...so that is looming closer...


Stop this. You are not there yet when we get close to this WE will tackle it together. Stop borrowing trouble you got enough friend.

Now lets talk about next steps are you guys still talking relationship stuff? If so or even if not I want to start refining you arguments on this. 

1. Again you are to set up two choices for him one is the IDEAL one that is that he stays with you. You start a new marriage and seek out counseling. You both work on your issues and you have a deeply loving relationship and stay true to your vows for better or worse. The other is that he moves with on with the OW who he is already having trouble with, you move on and start dating. You live separate lives with step moms and step dads, he gets to miss out on things and have step dads be there instead. You will be co-parents but the friendship you have will be only that just co-parents. You will move on with your life. Given the differences in the trouble of these two is he really not willing to give the marriage a chance?

2. When he brings up the relationship ask him where he thinks he will be in two months if he stays with her? They have been living together for only short time and already they have significant problems. Does he really think that the relationship is going to turn into something long term?

3. Be honest with him. This is the time to start being firm not degrading but you can have these conversations while still avoiding Love Busters you just need to focus on the logic of it all. You will also want to bring up Christmas that you may be seeing someone and how are you going to split the holidays? Who gets Christmas eve who gets the day? NO you will not just have one big thing at your house with the OW there. This is practicalities that need to be addressed as well as reminding him that going forward with the divorce has consequences. Put these on the table as you are talking be honest that you think he is making a hasty decision to be with her when he has a marriage that CAN be fixed. That yes alot of pain has gone on but that you said for better or worse and you MEANT it.

4. Be careful and use your best judgment on these you need to start outlining at least the IDEAL part now. As he has to start to see that him leaving you is not going to be peaches and cream. At the same time you have to be open and honest that you are not threatening him but letting him know how the future will go. 

5. Tell me more about the weekend please?


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> I am sorry Kimmy that you are having a rough day I could kind of see it in your post last night it was very terse. So lets take this from the most important thing. You are not to blame in this. You have owned up to your problems and are working on them. You have been a champ and have shown him how you want the marriage to be. You are beautiful and wonderful women. A great mother and a compassionate partner. Yes you made mistakes but at this moment you are owning them and are working on them. I know you are sad and right now you feel that there is no hope. I can't promise you will get him back if I could make it happen I would. What I can promise is that as sad and lonely as you feel right now it is only temporary. You WILL find love again either with him if he is lucky and pulls his head out of his azz or with some other lucky guy. You will feel happy again. You will once again be the center of a mans life a person who when he looks at you he sees his happiness. A man that really cannot live without you. This is what you deserve and you WILL have it. This is just like the night it gives into the day this is only a phase you will not have to endure it forever. I think you are a great person and YOU will find other men that think that way as well. No matter what you should always keep in mind that you are special person and the best thing that ever happened to him if he is willing to let that go then HE does not DESERVE YOU.


Thank you so much for these kind words. I really appreciate them...I have read this part several times because it makes me feel better...trying to believe it all...he is very stubborn, as am I, I hope he will get past his anger and resentment and see these things...I hope I can start believing them, too...thank you, CEL...you are truly a remarkable counselor and friend.

Now lets talk about your worries




CEL said:


> This is not reality oh it may be in the future but it is not today. This is your fear of what may happen. Tell me why you think this? And if you want to talk to him pick up the phone and talk to him. The only thing you have to lose is your fear. If you want to talk to him then DO IT. Lets talk about this we have counseled you to avoid the relationship talk for a reason and that is that it is a Love Buster. But if you need to do this then do it just read back through the books on how to do it respecfully. If you feel you need to lay out that you love him, that you feel that your family is worth a second shot.That you feel that he is throwing away your family for a relationship that is already on the rocks. Then YOU DO IT. Just follow Affaircares advice on how to bring it up.


I think this way because on Monday and today after swimming lessons he said he could not come over and quickly kissed me on the cheek when he always kisses me on the mouth...he kinda smacked when he did it today...I took it as kind of punishing but don't know if he really meant it that way...more of my depression thinking, maybe...we did talk relationship on Friday night but, I don't remember all the details...I'll tell you that on the whole weekend part...if I talk about relationship again I will reread the Lovebuster book and Affaircare's posts and your part about laying out the IDEAL and write it all in my journal and see if I can get it right before I say anything to him.




CEL said:


> You are projecting you fears onto the weekend. The fact is that he chose to spend it with you not the OW. You know she wanted him to and he decided to spend it with you. Don't let a good sign like that be dragged down. Right now your mind is working overtime to show you nothing but despair and darkness. Well it is wrong you may not get him back but that does not mean you can't enjoy the last weeks of your marriage. Or you may get him back in which case all this pain is for nothing. Your mind is not your friend. I am your friend trust me when I say that things no matter what are going to be okay for you. No matter what you will not lose your son or your wonderful self and those are the most precious things you have.


Yes, projecting fear...I love my precious son and need to pick myself up for him...hope I can feel wonderful someday...thank you for being a friend, CEL.



CEL said:


> You will get a decision in August and that will be the final one. Either he is all in or he is OUT. You DO have a chance you MADE a chance for yourself and are continuing to do that. How happy do you think the OW would be if you decided to stop fighting? And him living with her has it advantages for YOU. I know this is hard but he was living with you when he left you. The point is that this is a 50/50 thing him living with her is helping you as it makes that relationship REAL not base on a fantasy it is much harder to fight a fantasy. Right now you may be seeing him be less flirty with you but at the same time he is spending more time with you. Why? Because he has not made a decision yet. Again you may lose him but at the end of this either way you will have no regrets. You will have no doubt you fought for you marriage. You will know you did EVERYTHING you could do.


He has told me that the OW thinks he is here strictly to see our son. She may think otherwise but he is not telling her about it...he has said that she is probably not the one...he has said if she moves out, he may still not come back. I think he has THREE choices that he is pondering...OW, W and FAMILY and SINGLE AND HAVING FUN. I WILL know that I did everything in my power to save our marriage once my heart was opened...He WAS spending more time with us last week...BUT, this week, less...another reason I think she has gotten another chance (also, last Wednesday, he said he hadn't even given her a chance and he needed to...I told him over the weekend that that was hurtful and that is why I was off Thursday night and he said, it's the truth, I am being honest with you)...




CEL said:


> August he is going to run this out to the end. This is his one chance to decide he knows you will not go beyond this point and he knows the OW will not. So he has to decide. He knows it, you know it, OW knows it. You are all racing for that date. By the way find out the exact date because before that day if it comes to that we need to talk about boundaries that you will be setting for him.Once you get to that point we change focus to just YOU.


I am going to ask him the exact date...what if he puts it off AGAIN? He said that he is not able to do that but I know he can...I'll cross that bridge when I get to it...I'll give you date when is get it...




CEL said:


> Here is what I want you to do. In August either way you start a NEW life either it will be with him or without him. I want you to make two lists each with 10 things. These are all good things one is if you get him back the other is if you don't. This is to change your view of this right now you look at it as the end of something. Understand the old marriage is dead now you can either have a new one of you get a new life. August will be your life's rebirth either way.


Okay, tonight or tomorrow morning (cuz promised son I will watch a movie with him tonight...he has been such a trooper)! I will make 2 lists: one with 10 good things about OUR NEW MARRIAGE and one with 10 good things about MY NEW LIFE WITHOUT HIM...rebirth either way...thank you, that really helps...but, life without him sounds so scary and lonely...trying to think of 10 good things is just what I need to do....




CEL said:


> Stop this. You are not there yet when we get close to this WE will tackle it together. Stop borrowing trouble you got enough friend.


Yes, I got enough...going back to work sounds so daunting though...I truly love my job but have never had to do it depressed...but, yes, that is not here yet...



CEL said:


> Now lets talk about next steps are you guys still talking relationship stuff? If so or even if not I want to start refining you arguments on this.


Yes, we did talk about it on Friday...maybe Saturday, too, not sure



CEL said:


> 1. Again you are to set up two choices for him one is the IDEAL one that is that he stays with you. You start a new marriage and seek out counseling. You both work on your issues and you have a deeply loving relationship and stay true to your vows for better or worse. The other is that he moves with on with the OW who he is already having trouble with, you move on and start dating. You live separate lives with step moms and step dads, he gets to miss out on things and have step dads be there instead. You will be co-parents but the friendship you have will be only that just co-parents. You will move on with your life. Given the differences in the trouble of these two is he really not willing to give the marriage a chance?


Okay, this is the part I will reread when I write it out in my journal.



CEL said:


> 2. When he brings up the relationship ask him where he thinks he will be in two months if he stays with her? They have been living together for only short time and already they have significant problems. Does he really think that the relationship is going to turn into something long term?


He has said that he thinks maybe she is not the one or maybe she is...he did say that she loves him very much and is willing to do anything for him and to be a doormat for him and he doesn't want a doormat...I think that was Friday night...so, there, I know I have to make sure that I am not being a doormat..:/



CEL said:


> 3. Be honest with him. This is the time to start being firm not degrading but you can have these conversations while still avoiding Love Busters you just need to focus on the logic of it all. You will also want to bring up Christmas that you may be seeing someone and how are you going to split the holidays? Who gets Christmas eve who gets the day? NO you will not just have one big thing at your house with the OW there. This is practicalities that need to be addressed as well as reminding him that going forward with the divorce has consequences. Put these on the table as you are talking be honest that you think he is making a hasty decision to be with her when he has a marriage that CAN be fixed. That yes alot of pain has gone on but that you said for better or worse and you MEANT it.


I will add this to what I'm writing in my journal about what to say when we talk relationship stuff...



CEL said:


> 4. Be careful and use your best judgment on these you need to start outlining at least the IDEAL part now. As he has to start to see that him leaving you is not going to be peaches and cream. At the same time you have to be open and honest that you are not threatening him but letting him know how the future will go.


Yes, I will outline the IDEAL and think about this, too.



CEL said:


> 5. Tell me more about the weekend please?


Okay, the weekend...Friday, he came to swimming lessons, then, said, he was going home to change and come over...he was over in about 30 minutes...he saw the BBQ set up and the meat in the fridge and was pretty happy...he started working on that right away...I was helping him and we were doing it together...getting along...talking about how to cook all the different kinds of meat...then, after that we sat out on the patio and talked all night...he was telling me things about his childhood that haunt him...things he never told me before...he even started crying and I was holding his leg and hugging him at times, too...he told me again about how great a mother I am and how much he wishes that I had been his mother, that he would have turned out more successful...he went to medical school for a year and dropped out...I think he feels that his parents not being supportive helped him be able to just give up...I told him we are BOTH going to be there for our son and he will be whatever he wants to be, with OUR SUPPORT.

Then, we all went to bed...our son still sleeps with us...part of the problem, I know...after my son went to sleep, we went to our son's bed and we MADE SUPER AWESOME LOVE for a LONG TIME...then, we went back to our bed, scooted our son over and slept on the same side of the bed...spooning ALL night...I had to say the I love you before I fell asleep but he said it back...

Also, he woke up early Saturday morning and we went BACK to our son's bed for MORE!

Then, later Saturday morning I made breakfast for our son...he said he wasn't hungry...he laid around watching TV, then, took a shower around 11:30 and said he had some errands to run, I offered for us to go with him, but he said no. He knew he had to be back by 2:15 to be with our son so I could go to my IC appointment...he left around 12:30 and was back around 1:45...

I got home around 5:30 since my IC's next appt was canceled and we talked an extra 40 minutes and she is about 45 minutes away from where we live...

He said he was going to go get a gift card and then, take our son to the party that was starting at 6:00 PM...told them, have fun and that I was probably going to take a nap...he said good idea, that's what I did while you were gone...

I texted at around 8:45 asking if everything was okay and he said yes, we are on our way home now...nice that he said HOME...

Then, he came in with a plate for me from the party and said they had eaten ALOT at the party and that it was pretty fun but our son was the oldest kid there so he thought it was kinda babyish and boring...

So, back out to the patio for a little while...he started telling me all about the party and the people we know that he saw there and how they are doing. Nothing heavy or profound just stories about the party...

Then, we went I so he could play SKYRIM with our son which is something they like to do, but I sat in the living room to and watched them and followed along with the game...

Then, back out to the patio and now, he was talking about his experiences in medical school...he talked about this for a LONG time...I was just listening...then, we got the iPad and he was showing videos and I showed him the Big Bang video and he liked it...then, he showed me more funny videos that he likes...his all time favorite is a Geico commercial with the Pilsbury Doughboy...

Then, it was very late and we all went to bed. I fell asleep but woke up and went to wake him up and he just wanted to lay there and spoon and go back to sleep...so we did...it was so peaceful and secure sleeping near himself night those 2 nights...it's been so many years with our son sleeping between us...

Then, the next day, we were trying everything to mess around and our son kept knocking on our locked bedroom door...so not, much luck there...I told him that we will be able to get him into his own bed and that I am working on that with IC, too and with him...also, we will have to teach him that when the door is locked, do not disturb...he didn't say much to that...probably cuz he doesn't know if he is coming back...

So, he watched Big Bang until about 1:00 and then, he said he had to leave and I thanked him for a great weekend and he thanked me back and said he will see us soon...

So, our relationship talk did not sound like he was coming home as much as last weekend...and was pretty sparse...


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Thank you so much for these kind words. I really appreciate them...I have read this part several times because it makes me feel better...trying to believe it all...he is very stubborn, as am I, I hope he will get past his anger and resentment and see these things...I hope I can start believing them, too...thank you, CEL...you are truly a remarkable counselor and friend.


Your a wonderful person I know right now it is hard and I wish you had more support that you could hug you and take you out. But I want you to know I won't lie to you. You ARE a great person and you do deserve to have man that puts you as #1 I hope it is your husband but either way you are still a wonderful person. And thanks that is the nicest thing I have heard today: )




kimmycat said:


> I think this way because on Monday and today after swimming lessons he said he could not come over and quickly kissed me on the cheek when he always kisses me on the mouth...he kinda smacked when he did it today...I took it as kind of punishing but don't know if he really meant it that way...more of my depression thinking, maybe...we did talk relationship on Friday night but, I don't remember all the details...I'll tell you that on the whole weekend part...if I talk about relationship again I will reread the Lovebuster book and Affaircare's posts and your part about laying out the IDEAL and write it all in my journal and see if I can get it right before I say anything to him.


I think he did not mean it he may of been in a hurry more likely he is being torn in two and has no idea what he is doing. The more you post the more I get the idea that he got himself in WAY over his head and is finding out he can't swim. Right now he sees how wonderful you are and how much you love him "and yes that is due to all your ACTIONS you have SHOWN him your love, it has been hard work but you have done it". But he is fighting I don't think his feelings for the OW but more his honor he has to feel he has set her up for failure and treated her horribly. Which well he has but that his her problem I think he feels more like it he feels honor and duty bound to be with her or give her a chance.




kimmycat said:


> Yes, projecting fear...I love my precious son and need to pick myself up for him...hope I can feel wonderful someday...thank you for being a friend, CEL.


Your mind is going to put you through hell on this. Right now you can't really depend on it but you can depend on what your son sees and what your friends see. So I will keep telling you the truth until you can see it. 



kimmycat said:


> He has told me that the OW thinks he is here strictly to see our son. She may think otherwise but he is not telling her about it...he has said that she is probably not the one...he has said if she moves out, he may still not come back. I think he has THREE choices that he is pondering...OW, W and FAMILY and SINGLE AND HAVING FUN. I WILL know that I did everything in my power to save our marriage once my heart was opened...He WAS spending more time with us last week...BUT, this week, less...another reason I think she has gotten another chance (also, last Wednesday, he said he hadn't even given her a chance and he needed to...I told him over the weekend that that was hurtful and that is why I was off Thursday night and he said, it's the truth, I am being honest with you)...


Okay lets take this apart when this comes up and he starts talking about honestly tell him that honestly him being with a women who he sees very little future with instead of giving his family another chance is weird. And you did the right thing you were honest with your feelings and made it known to him you are not a doormat who will sit around and let him hurt you. I don't think she has gotten another chance I think it is just more confustion as well as understanding he has a deadline that is ticking away. Right now he is running scared not sure what to do. I don't think that being on his own is really an option for him. He may say it but he is lying he is the kind of guy that NEEDS a women in his life it is how he gets his self esteem. If this women had not come around he would NEVER of filed for divorce. He just is not that kind of guy. I remember that he said that but really he is so all over the place that I still think that he is scrambling to figure out what to do.






kimmycat said:


> I am going to ask him the exact date...what if he puts it off AGAIN? He said that he is not able to do that but I know he can...I'll cross that bridge when I get to it...I'll give you date when is get it...


Get the date so that we can plan for it. As for if he puts it off again well we are not there yet plus for you it does not matter you said you date for Plan A was when the next divorce date was so at that time if we get a postponement again we will look at it then. Honestly if he does postpone I think we will rework the plan as we will then have over a month of GREAT stuff to make him see who you really are. So we will probably switch to a more hard stance. But yeah lets now borrow trouble you are doing good and have your ducks in a row.




kimmycat said:


> Okay, tonight or tomorrow morning (cuz promised son I will watch a movie with him tonight...he has been such a trooper)! I will make 2 lists: one with 10 good things about OUR NEW MARRIAGE and one with 10 good things about MY NEW LIFE WITHOUT HIM...rebirth either way...thank you, that really helps...but, life without him sounds so scary and lonely...trying to think of 10 good things is just what I need to do....


Right now you fear that this date will take everything you know away from you. Well how did you feel when you got married? Or had your wonderful son? Whenever you start dreading the end I want you to think about that fact how those all turned out to be wonderful events in your life. This will be the same either way you will rise just like a phoenix. As for scary and lonely hey what do you think happens when you get divorced you going to disappear on us? I may be hundreds of miles away but I am not chop liver. In life you are only as alone as you want to be. People every day reach out to you all you have to do is accept their friendship that all. As we move through this and you go to IC you will see that people WANT to be friends with you just subconsciously you chose not to develop them. No matter what happens you can count on me. And I am sure I am not the only one.




kimmycat said:


> Okay, this is the part I will reread when I write it out in my journal.


This is going to be your platform you are working on his heart but we need to start working on his head to. So look over the concepts and think about it. Be sure that YOU understand where you are coming from. Right now you have a hard time thinking you could be with anyone but him. But if he leaves you WILL move on. Look around you and see how other divorces work this is all to give you an idea of how it will be. You can look in the Life After Divorce section if you want lots of stories there on this. Co-parenting, split holidays, missing events, step moms and step dads, all kinds of very difficult things. I know it is hard to think about but understanding it will give you a good solid platform to stand on.




kimmycat said:


> He has said that he thinks maybe she is not the one or maybe she is...he did say that she loves him very much and is willing to do anything for him and to be a doormat for him and he doesn't want a doormat...I think that was Friday night...so, there, I know I have to make sure that I am not being a doormat..:/


I don't see you as a doormat I see you as a person fighting for her family and wiling to suffer to win. A doormat has no boundaries, a doormat does not stand up for herself, a doormat takes the abuse others throw at them with out uttering a word. You are not that. You tell him when he hurts you. You are honest with him about your feelings. And when conflict arises you DO tell him how you feel. I know some this has been hard because you are scared to lose him but you have done it and that has shown a lot of courage.




kimmycat said:


> Okay, the weekend...Friday, he came to swimming lessons, then, said, he was going home to change and come over...he was over in about 30 minutes...he saw the BBQ set up and the meat in the fridge and was pretty happy...he started working on that right away...I was helping him and we were doing it together...getting along...talking about how to cook all the different kinds of meat...then, after that we sat out on the patio and talked all night...he was telling me things about his childhood that haunt him...things he never told me before...he even started crying and I was holding his leg and hugging him at times, too...he told me again about how great a mother I am and how much he wishes that I had been his mother, that he would have turned out more successful...he went to medical school for a year and dropped out...I think he feels that his parents not being supportive helped him be able to just give up...I told him we are BOTH going to be there for our son and he will be whatever he wants to be, with OUR SUPPORT.


Wow that is some heavy stuff. So he opened up about his fears of insecurity praised your parenting skills and was comfortable enough with you to cry on your shoulder. Yeah totally sounds like he is done with you. LOL. Really you have a break through like this and then call the weekend a failure? LOL. I like you but this is why I asked it is kinda like bear goggles you see things through the tint of your most current emotions and from this you decide on whether you are doing good or bad. My eyes are not tinted so I see a little more clearly. This was breakthrough for you he felt loved by you, he is starting to TRUST you more. He opened up to you BECAUSE he i starting to feel that TRUST again. This is great stuff and you handled it really well with the touching and comfort. I would of added in some good stuff for you on that as his wife you will support him and love him. 



kimmycat said:


> Then, we all went to bed...our son still sleeps with us...part of the problem, I know...after my son went to sleep, we went to our son's bed and we MADE SUPER AWESOME LOVE for a LONG TIME...then, we went back to our bed, scooted our son over and slept on the same side of the bed...spooning ALL night...I had to say the I love you before I fell asleep but he said it back...
> 
> Also, he woke up early Saturday morning and we went BACK to our son's bed for MORE!


Okay you know the son thing is an issue so I won't hit you over the head. But yeah you WORK on that with the IC because that is NOT healthy for any of you. As for the rest well let me tell you looks like all bad signs yep you are sure out the door...LOL Okay so he snuggles with you, has sex with you and from past experience you know that it means more than just a physical thing. Then goes back to spooning. So yeah I got nothing. That is all REALLY good.



kimmycat said:


> Then, later Saturday morning I made breakfast for our son...he said he wasn't hungry...he laid around watching TV, then, took a shower around 11:30 and said he had some errands to run, I offered for us to go with him, but he said no. He knew he had to be back by 2:15 to be with our son so I could go to my IC appointment...he left around 12:30 and was back around 1:45...
> 
> I got home around 5:30 since my IC's next appt was canceled and we talked an extra 40 minutes and she is about 45 minutes away from where we live...
> 
> He said he was going to go get a gift card and then, take our son to the party that was starting at 6:00 PM...told them, have fun and that I was probably going to take a nap...he said good idea, that's what I did while you were gone...
> 
> I texted at around 8:45 asking if everything was okay and he said yes, we are on our way home now...nice that he said HOME...
> 
> Then, he came in with a plate for me from the party and said they had eaten ALOT at the party and that it was pretty fun but our son was the oldest kid there so he thought it was kinda babyish and boring...
> 
> So, back out to the patio for a little while...he started telling me all about the party and the people we know that he saw there and how they are doing. Nothing heavy or profound just stories about the party...


So you had a family day. You showed him you have stuff going on. You showed him that you are working on YOU. He showed you he valued you and thought of you are the party. Also he got to spend time with people who were all asking about you. He also acknowledged that he considers you and your sons place HOME.



kimmycat said:


> Then, we went I so he could play SKYRIM with our son which is something they like to do, but I sat in the living room to and watched them and followed along with the game...


Good remember one of his needs is Recreational Companionship this fell by the wayside in your marriage if they are doing something contribute as you can be with them. You did good on this one just keep your wits about you. This was testing like you could of gone and done something else you did not you stayed and were part of it. So good job.



kimmycat said:


> Then, back out to the patio and now, he was talking about his experiences in medical school...he talked about this for a LONG time...I was just listening...then, we got the iPad and he was showing videos and I showed him the Big Bang video and he liked it...then, he showed me more funny videos that he likes...his all time favorite is a Geico commercial with the Pilsbury Doughboy...
> 
> Then, it was very late and we all went to bed. I fell asleep but woke up and went to wake him up and he just wanted to lay there and spoon and go back to sleep...so we did...it was so peaceful and secure sleeping near himself night those 2 nights...it's been so many years with our son sleeping between us...
> 
> Then, the next day, we were trying everything to mess around and our son kept knocking on our locked bedroom door...so not, much luck there...I told him that we will be able to get him into his own bed and that I am working on that with IC, too and with him...also, we will have to teach him that when the door is locked, do not disturb...he didn't say much to that...probably cuz he doesn't know if he is coming back...
> 
> So, he watched Big Bang until about 1:00 and then, he said he had to leave and I thanked him for a great weekend and he thanked me back and said he will see us soon...
> 
> So, our relationship talk did not sound like he was coming home as much as last weekend...and was pretty sparse...


That he keep bringing up the school thing has me thinking he is going through midlife crisis this seems a little excessive for just one weekend. I am very heartened that he chose to share it all with you. As this speaks volumes about the trust he is starting to develop with you. That he turned down sex is also a good thing guys only do that when they think they will get it in the future. Also the son thing yeah I think you can see how this hurt you guys. He still thinks of you as a great mom and wife. But he lost the third part lover somewhere in there. You guys lost each other in your focus on your son. Don't beat yourself up tho it happens all the time and is VERY common. I would like you to think about having a more formal talk about the son thing with him and honestly tell him how you feel this contributed and that WHEN you get together you want to transition to the son sleeping in his own bed. This was a huge issue for him whether he tells you it is or not I would address it with him. You already have a great start on this by the way. That he left unfulfilled is a good thing it make him want you more.

You have been REALLY heavy with the relationship talk so you may be at the point that he has all the answers he needs from you. Now he just wants to see if you hold up or not. Don't sweat this as it gives you time to work on you platform. I do want to address the talking thing. He is your husband. You do love him. Everyday send a text or call him. See how he is doing be friendly it does not have to be overboard but remember you are forging connections. And if you want to talk to him...then do it. DO NOT allow him wanting time to work it out or whatever with the OW to deter you. In fact that should spur you on why should you make it easy for him to focus on her? You keep with your plan. Now take a deep breath and realize you are a wonderful person with a son who thinks the world of you with friends who feel they are lucky to know you. No matter what happens you are embarking on a NEW life. One where the you will chart your OWN path.


----------



## Affaircare

I don't have a lot of time tonight, so I'm going to make a suggestion, and it's "out in left field."

So far your interaction with him has been "wife and mom" when he comes over to your marital home and does some daddy things with you all (and a little "who's yer daddy?" behind closed doors). 

This time, for a change of pace, I want you to show him you are NOT a doormat and a desirable LOVER by doing something different. I am not sure how you were or how you dressed etc. when you guys were dating, but I bet you it wasn't like he'd ask you out and you were sitting around waiting for his beck and call in regular old jeans and tee. 

Sooooo...I'm not saying to make up some event, but think if you have some friends he also has, or used to go dancing and haven't been in forever, or SOMETHING that the two of you used to do that you used to get dressed up to the nines to impress him with your hotness. Show him that you have a life and you're fun and you're not all about sitting around at home being a mommy. 

Now, let me give you an example. I am a 50yo lady and my Dear Hubby is the love of my life. I find him hotter than hot, but he is ill and sometimes can't quite do some of the things we used to do. So when we were dating we used to go hiking, go camping, go to car shows and go to concerts, and I would bring along my "DaisyMae" short shorts for camping to tease him...or go to the car show in a Marilyn Monroe off-the-shoulder top and rolled up jeans with my hair in a 50's hairdo. He knew I had interests and had a life! Now that we are older and can't go out as much I STILL have a life. If we can't go camping, I set up the tent in the living room  If we can't go to a concert, we set it all up in the living room on our surround sound, and I get all dolled up and we listen to Pink Floyd 'Pulse' like we were at the concert. And I do occasionally flash him and let him know I forgot to wear underthings or show him the lacy set I have on...and I let him see me (50yo, mom of 7 ...me) as his hot little momma! 

So Kimmy that is your goal. Have plans to go have some fun of your own. Ask him to babysit once (at your house) because you are "going out" and then look drippingly delicious. Don't tell him where you're going and be deliberately vague. Hey..here's reality: if he chooses to go with OW some other lucky guy is getting you and he'll be "stuck babysitting" with OW yelling at him about not spending time with her, while you go out and other men want you!! Invite him to share in one plan you want him to share. Look HOT when you're going out with him, and show him with your actions that you are a sexy, desireable, lover. For example, go out dancing at that place you used to like, and go with a little group so it's fairly safe...and then at some point you could ask him, "Hey I'm going out dancing Friday night with a couple of friends from the XYZ...want to come? I'd enjoy your company but if you don't come maybe you could babysit!"

Okay? I'm not saying to lie to him, but he's choosing to not be part of your life right now, and all he needs to know is that you are going "out" and won't be back early. He doesn't need to know you're meeting a girlfriend to go see a movie and have ice cream afterward! If he asks, just giggle and blush and say "A lady doesn't kiss and tell! (rolleyes)" [See how you said nothing there? Just sort of "lead him to believe..." ] Let him see that you will be going "out" and that he's not the only fish in the sea and that you are the kind of women other men will WANT. And again I'm not saying to show off or lie or suggest you have a boyfriend..but rather act like someone hot, who remembers how to dress to accentuate your positive physique, and how is not just sitting around "at home" being "a mom."


----------



## kimmycat

Affaircare said:


> I don't have a lot of time tonight, so I'm going to make a suggestion, and it's "out in left field."
> 
> So far your interaction with him has been "wife and mom" when he comes over to your marital home and does some daddy things with you all (and a little "who's yer daddy?" behind closed doors).
> 
> This time, for a change of pace, I want you to show him you are NOT a doormat and a desirable LOVER by doing something different. I am not sure how you were or how you dressed etc. when you guys were dating, but I bet you it wasn't like he'd ask you out and you were sitting around waiting for his beck and call in regular old jeans and tee.
> 
> Sooooo...I'm not saying to make up some event, but think if you have some friends he also has, or used to go dancing and haven't been in forever, or SOMETHING that the two of you used to do that you used to get dressed up to the nines to impress him with your hotness. Show him that you have a life and you're fun and you're not all about sitting around at home being a mommy.
> 
> Now, let me give you an example. I am a 50yo lady and my Dear Hubby is the love of my life. I find him hotter than hot, but he is ill and sometimes can't quite do some of the things we used to do. So when we were dating we used to go hiking, go camping, go to car shows and go to concerts, and I would bring along my "DaisyMae" short shorts for camping to tease him...or go to the car show in a Marilyn Monroe off-the-shoulder top and rolled up jeans with my hair in a 50's hairdo. He knew I had interests and had a life! Now that we are older and can't go out as much I STILL have a life. If we can't go camping, I set up the tent in the living room  If we can't go to a concert, we set it all up in the living room on our surround sound, and I get all dolled up and we listen to Pink Floyd 'Pulse' like we were at the concert. And I do occasionally flash him and let him know I forgot to wear underthings or show him the lacy set I have on...and I let him see me (50yo, mom of 7 ...me) as his hot little momma!
> 
> So Kimmy that is your goal. Have plans to go have some fun of your own. Ask him to babysit once (at your house) because you are "going out" and then look drippingly delicious. Don't tell him where you're going and be deliberately vague. Hey..here's reality: if he chooses to go with OW some other lucky guy is getting you and he'll be "stuck babysitting" with OW yelling at him about not spending time with her, while you go out and other men want you!! Invite him to share in one plan you want him to share. Look HOT when you're going out with him, and show him with your actions that you are a sexy, desireable, lover. For example, go out dancing at that place you used to like, and go with a little group so it's fairly safe...and then at some point you could ask him, "Hey I'm going out dancing Friday night with a couple of friends from the XYZ...want to come? I'd enjoy your company but if you don't come maybe you could babysit!"
> 
> Okay? I'm not saying to lie to him, but he's choosing to not be part of your life right now, and all he needs to know is that you are going "out" and won't be back early. He doesn't need to know you're meeting a girlfriend to go see a movie and have ice cream afterward! If he asks, just giggle and blush and say "A lady doesn't kiss and tell! (rolleyes)" [See how you said nothing there? Just sort of "lead him to believe..." ] Let him see that you will be going "out" and that he's not the only fish in the sea and that you are the kind of women other men will WANT. And again I'm not saying to show off or lie or suggest you have a boyfriend..but rather act like someone hot, who remembers how to dress to accentuate your positive physique, and how is not just sitting around "at home" being "a mom."


Thank you so much for this advice...I am afraid to do this.

HERE is WHY:

He told me this weekend...your post made me remember this:

He said that the only reason he used to be upset when I would go out with my friends is because I would NOT GO OUT WITH HIM...I was telling him that I should've have been going out without him and he said, yes, I should have but, should've been going out with my friends, too...

Part of why I wouldn't go out with him is that I was closed down to him and the other part is that we do not have babysitters, other than one of us...now, I wish I would have put the effort into finding babysitters...and had been listening to him when he was asking to have date nights to try to restart our relationship...

I am afraid that if I go out to get him jeoulous too soon, he will think I am just going back to my old ways of going out to have fun and leaving him at home to babysit...

I have told him of some ideas of babysitters and he has said that he doesnt want us to go out alone together, that we are not at that stage...and, he also makes it clear that we may never be at that stage...

I know you say to invite him to go, too, then, he will feel that he has chosen not to go and that I have to go anyway...so shouldn't I go and use a babysitter (if I can find one) and just let him know I am going and out and then, he can say, I WANT TO BABYSIT???

Of course, due to extreme financial problems right now, I can't even really afford a babysitter. I can't even afford to take my son anywhere to do fun things...except we are doing free things that are still fun and he is in swimming that is already paid for...


I am scared to do anything that will backfire and make him think I haven't changed, after all...


----------



## CEL

Deep breath Kimmy. Take what you can use and leave the rest. You have been doing great if this does not work for you then move on. No worries.

Have you texted him today?


----------



## Acabado

This guy, under of blanket of honesty, is playing you like a fiddle.
And hurting you on porpouse. He's paying you with interests.
He feels like superman, why not?


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Deep breath Kimmy. Take what you can use and leave the rest. You have been doing great if this does not work for you then move on. No worries.
> 
> Have you texted him today?


Okay, deep breath...............

As far as texting, yes, we bantered back and forth with flirty texts all afternoon...then, he texted that he was stuck at the office doing a report and couldn't come to swimming lessons....

This is the first week that he has not come by one time after swimming lessons...only one more day that is not the weekend left...


----------



## kimmycat

Acabado said:


> This guy, under of blanket of honesty, is playing you like a fiddle.
> And hurting you on porpouse. He's paying you with interests.
> He feels like superman, why not?


Ouch


----------



## CEL

Kimmy you need to understand that some people just are not going to be supportive. I know it hurts when you see those posts but really take it for what it is worth. They do not know your husband. They do not love him. They were not in your marriage. Am I saying he is wrong? No because I don't know your husband either there are going to be posters that want you to do the opposite of what you WANT, because they don't feel your husband is worth what you are doing. That is up to you. Don't let it get to you and if it starts your profile page has an ignore setting you can use.

I still got your back and I am not going to leave you hanging as long as YOU want to follow this path I am with you


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Okay, deep breath...............
> 
> As far as texting, yes, we bantered back and forth with flirty texts all afternoon...then, he texted that he was stuck at the office doing a report and couldn't come to swimming lessons....
> 
> This is the first week that he has not come by one time after swimming lessons...only one more day that is not the weekend left...



This just life he has to work he would like to be there but can't. Don't read into it as that will do you no good. I was thinking about his talk over the weekend have you ever talked about what HIS dreams are for the future? Like whether he wants to retire from his job, new career paths, living in another place those kinds of things. If he is dissatisfied with his life it would be good to get those out so that YOU can show your support and seriously talk about the future of what he sees in it not necessarily about your reltionship or women but professionally and personally.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> This just life he has to work he would like to be there but can't. Don't read into it as that will do you no good. I was thinking about his talk over the weekend have you ever talked about what HIS dreams are for the future? Like whether he wants to retire from his job, new career paths, living in another place those kinds of things. If he is dissatisfied with his life it would be good to get those out so that YOU can show your support and seriously talk about the future of what he sees in it not necessarily about your reltionship or women but professionally and personally.


Okay, I won't read into it.

I am going to ask him about his dreams professionally and personally...I know he wants to travel...we started to plan a trip to Scotland that he has always dreamed about...that was around Christmastime...he is only 42 so, retirement is definitely not in the near future...sounds good...


----------



## turnera

CEL said:


> Kimmy you need to understand that some people just are not going to be supportive. I know it hurts when you see those posts but really take it for what it is worth. They do not know your husband. They do not love him. They were not in your marriage. Am I saying he is wrong? No because I don't know your husband either there are going to be posters that want you to do the opposite of what you WANT, because they don't feel your husband is worth what you are doing.


Bullhockey. The poster is trying to HELP her save her marriage. By advising her to do what 95% of people with experience know that works. He IS playing her like a fiddle because she is ALLOWING him to EAT CAKE. 

Why would he EVER give this up? He gets to hop from bed to bed without having to give either woman his full attention - it's what teenage boys dream about. 

She may WANT to sex him back into her marriage but nearly every single professional's book or advice column out there - based on the experience of PROFESSIONALS - say that the only way to get him to CHOOSE kimmy is to stop feeding him cake. Has nothing to do with whether he is worth it. We are trying to show her that by respecting herself and saying her or me, he just MIGHT be willing to choose her over OW.


----------



## Hortensia

Turnera, even if in general you guys are right..THIS is the path SHE wants to follow. Respect that. It is her choice, her perspective. Let her take this path and follow CEL's advice. If she fails, well, she'll know that she did what she wanted to do at least. 
Not all marriages are the same and not all people are the same. What works for the majority doesn't work for a few others, and what may work for those very few, the majority may find bullsheet.
It's only her that knows her husband and her marriage. Let her choose to do things her way, and direct any advice toward the way she chose, or don't give any. I don't see how negative comments are helpful- even if from your perspective, you're right.
P.S. I've made it clear I'm not a fan of cake eating. But if she feels she can't give him an ultimatum but do what she's doing...then let her. She may be among those ones who can reconquer someone just with love.


----------



## turnera

Hortensia, I was responding to this:


> Kimmy you need to understand that some people just are not going to be supportive


If kimmy came here and said she just wants to be patted on the back and given attagirls, she should have said so. THAT is being 'supportive.' She came here for advice. And CEL continues to disparage anyone who doesn't agree with HER advice; I get that kimmy wants to follow CEL's advice, but she came here for advice, period. So if she continues to post - and says she feels it's not working, she's going to continue to be told that there is another way.


----------



## Affaircare

Kimmy, 

I think there is a bit of a difference between "going out with your friends" to the exclusion of him, and what I suggested. So let's review:

Did you know that I had an affair? Yep.  I'm ashamed to admit it but it's true. And a portion of what happened is that I felt sort of cut off from Dear Hubby, and so I thought: "Well I know what I'll do. He has some games and things he likes to play, and I'll just have some games and things I do on my own. It's healthy to be an individual and have individual interests, right?" So off I went to play these games online. Now, I would have much preferred to play something with Dear Hubby, but he wasn't there, so I just had some fun...at first. Then it got to where I had friends that he didn't have. Then it got to where I preferred to be with the friends he didn't have. I was EXCLUDING him from my life and my interests. Then someone came along who said "Wow you are AMAZING" just when my Dear Hubby was acting like if I set myself on fire he wouldn't notice. I fell. So you can see that there is a very BIG danger to having interests, hobbies, friends, etc. that EXCLUDE your spouse. 

And when I say "exclude" I don't mean that you two have to both like everything. My Dear Hubby has no interest whatsoever in crocheting--I guarantee it! But, he sees that I like it and I relax and I do it around him and watch him do something he's enjoying (like watching a movie or reading out loud). See the way we INCLUDE each other even in our own individual interests? When he was in the hospital one time, I brought my crocheting to help pass the time, and a nurse saw me and started asking me questions...and she told other nurses I was a guru...and within about a day I had nurses coming to ask for my crocheting advice round the clock! But again, all this was done in my Dear Hubby's presence, and he thought it was neat. He was INCLUDED. 

Very often when I make this suggestion, people think I'm saying you should play some jealousy game. That is not what I'm saying at all!! But right now, what I see happening is that he's got you and OW giving him sex, and you sit around and wait for him as if you are at his beck and call, and you are afraid to do anything or BE THE REAL YOU because he'll use that as a threat to manipulate you into still giving him sex and waiting around!! 

What I'm talking about is not "go play mind games with him" or "try to get him jealous" or "go out with your friends and exclude him." See...I bet that really is part of what got you into this trouble in the first place! You EXCLUDED him and even showed him by your actions that given the choice of HIM or THEM...you'd pick them and exclude him!!

NOPE, this is entirely different. This is part of being on your journey to a new you: and part of the "New You" has got to be honest with him and with yourself. You shut him out before and closed him down...I think because you were trying to be who you thought he wanted you to be so he would love you. But that's not who "YOU" are. The "True You" (I'm going to name it that from now on, okay?) is hurting, but you hide that from him--shutting him out. The "True You" is being damaged by how he's treating you, but you also hide that--closing him down. I think you are afraid to show him the "True You" because if you do, you believe he won't love "You." So you hide. 

Kimmy, what I'm talking about is remembering who "You" were when you two met. Remember her? She wasn't sitting around at home waiting for some guy to call with no life. She probably kept in shape, had activities that she enjoyed, had people in her life that cared about her, and had interests! She knew some of the latest gossip maybe. The "True You" is interested in puzzles or likes to go to art shows, or something. The "True You" has a couple people who have stuck with you through thick and thin who are more like sisters than friends. The "True You" is not just a lump who let's someone treat her like option #2 if option #1 doesn't work out. 

Sooooo...what I'm saying is not "Hey, go out with your friends clubbing and exclude your hubby...and maybe at the last minute ask him to go to a place he hates with people he thinks killed his marriage.' That's silly!! I'm saying, "REMEMBER THAT GIRL from when you first started dating." Maybe you like coffee shops (that's one of my weaknesses). Maybe you go to a support group. Whatever it is, start remembering the girl who had her own mind and her own interests; she wanted to look GOOD ...maybe even sexy...and she was a little brave! 

So I love those little local "performers" at coffee shops. I love the small venue and the audience and being able to talk to a local performer and that they aren't famous...and I love all different kinds of coffee! So if I was remembering "That Girl" who is the "True Me" I would occasionally tell my Dear Hubby "I want to go to a coffeeshop. I like them. Do you like them? Want to try one with me?" And if he didn't, I might say "Okay well I do like you more than coffee--what do you want to share with me? " 

Get it? It's not a jealousy game and it's not excluding. It's showing him who you really and truly are inside, and it's acting like you're not just an individual but always part of "a team of two" now, and it's being authentic, and it's also showing him that you are a smart-interesting woman who has a mind and interests and thoughts who also is worthy of LOVE and RESPECT. 

Make more sense?


----------



## kimmycat

Affaircare said:


> Kimmy,
> 
> I think there is a bit of a difference between "going out with your friends" to the exclusion of him, and what I suggested. So let's review:
> 
> Did you know that I had an affair? Yep.  I'm ashamed to admit it but it's true. And a portion of what happened is that I felt sort of cut off from Dear Hubby, and so I thought: "Well I know what I'll do. He has some games and things he likes to play, and I'll just have some games and things I do on my own. It's healthy to be an individual and have individual interests, right?" So off I went to play these games online. Now, I would have much preferred to play something with Dear Hubby, but he wasn't there, so I just had some fun...at first. Then it got to where I had friends that he didn't have. Then it got to where I preferred to be with the friends he didn't have. I was EXCLUDING him from my life and my interests. Then someone came along who said "Wow you are AMAZING" just when my Dear Hubby was acting like if I set myself on fire he wouldn't notice. I fell. So you can see that there is a very BIG danger to having interests, hobbies, friends, etc. that EXCLUDE your spouse.
> 
> And when I say "exclude" I don't mean that you two have to both like everything. My Dear Hubby has no interest whatsoever in crocheting--I guarantee it! But, he sees that I like it and I relax and I do it around him and watch him do something he's enjoying (like watching a movie or reading out loud). See the way we INCLUDE each other even in our own individual interests? When he was in the hospital one time, I brought my crocheting to help pass the time, and a nurse saw me and started asking me questions...and she told other nurses I was a guru...and within about a day I had nurses coming to ask for my crocheting advice round the clock! But again, all this was done in my Dear Hubby's presence, and he thought it was neat. He was INCLUDED.
> 
> Very often when I make this suggestion, people think I'm saying you should play some jealousy game. That is not what I'm saying at all!! But right now, what I see happening is that he's got you and OW giving him sex, and you sit around and wait for him as if you are at his beck and call, and you are afraid to do anything or BE THE REAL YOU because he'll use that as a threat to manipulate you into still giving him sex and waiting around!!
> 
> What I'm talking about is not "go play mind games with him" or "try to get him jealous" or "go out with your friends and exclude him." See...I bet that really is part of what got you into this trouble in the first place! You EXCLUDED him and even showed him by your actions that given the choice of HIM or THEM...you'd pick them and exclude him!!
> 
> NOPE, this is entirely different. This is part of being on your journey to a new you: and part of the "New You" has got to be honest with him and with yourself. You shut him out before and closed him down...I think because you were trying to be who you thought he wanted you to be so he would love you. But that's not who "YOU" are. The "True You" (I'm going to name it that from now on, okay?) is hurting, but you hide that from him--shutting him out. The "True You" is being damaged by how he's treating you, but you also hide that--closing him down. I think you are afraid to show him the "True You" because if you do, you believe he won't love "You." So you hide.
> 
> Kimmy, what I'm talking about is remembering who "You" were when you two met. Remember her? She wasn't sitting around at home waiting for some guy to call with no life. She probably kept in shape, had activities that she enjoyed, had people in her life that cared about her, and had interests! She knew some of the latest gossip maybe. The "True You" is interested in puzzles or likes to go to art shows, or something. The "True You" has a couple people who have stuck with you through thick and thin who are more like sisters than friends. The "True You" is not just a lump who let's someone treat her like option #2 if option #1 doesn't work out.
> 
> Sooooo...what I'm saying is not "Hey, go out with your friends clubbing and exclude your hubby...and maybe at the last minute ask him to go to a place he hates with people he thinks killed his marriage.' That's silly!! I'm saying, "REMEMBER THAT GIRL from when you first started dating." Maybe you like coffee shops (that's one of my weaknesses). Maybe you go to a support group. Whatever it is, start remembering the girl who had her own mind and her own interests; she wanted to look GOOD ...maybe even sexy...and she was a little brave!
> 
> So I love those little local "performers" at coffee shops. I love the small venue and the audience and being able to talk to a local performer and that they aren't famous...and I love all different kinds of coffee! So if I was remembering "That Girl" who is the "True Me" I would occasionally tell my Dear Hubby "I want to go to a coffeeshop. I like them. Do you like them? Want to try one with me?" And if he didn't, I might say "Okay well I do like you more than coffee--what do you want to share with me? "
> 
> Get it? It's not a jealousy game and it's not excluding. It's showing him who you really and truly are inside, and it's acting like you're not just an individual but always part of "a team of two" now, and it's being authentic, and it's also showing him that you are a smart-interesting woman who has a mind and interests and thoughts who also is worthy of LOVE and RESPECT.
> 
> Make more sense?


Yes, this definitely makes more sense...I am trying to think of who I was back then, 12 years ago...and figuring out who I am now...


----------



## turnera

What have you always wanted to do or learn but never have?


----------



## LetDownNTX

I honestly dont know why Kimmy and CEL dont take it off list to email or something. That way the rest of us dont have to beat our head in the walls in frustration! The only thing Kimmy replies to is what Cel or Affair says because its whats she wants to hear.

I could care less if she listens to anything I say but I was where she is at one time....Im not there anymore! When she finally decides to do something different, that might actually work, she will be kicking her own behind for not trying it sooner!


----------



## kimmycat

LetDownNTX said:


> I honestly dont know why Kimmy and CEL dont take it off list to email or something. That way the rest of us dont have to beat our head in the walls in frustration! The only thing Kimmy replies to is what Cel or Affair says because its whats she wants to hear.
> 
> I could care less if she listens to anything I say but I was where she is at one time....Im not there anymore! When she finally decides to do something different, that might actually work, she will be kicking her own behind for not trying it sooner!


I am frustrated enough without having to worry that others are beating their heads against the wall in frustration...I am just trying to get through the worst time in my life...trying to make it though the days and take care of myself and my son...


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> What have you always wanted to do or learn but never have?


Trying to think of things and I feel too depressed...just started reading a book by Brene Brown...Daring something...hope it helps me live an authentic life...that is all can hope for really


----------



## turnera

Daring Greatly. Good choice.


----------



## turnera

Remind me: are you taking antidepressants?


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> Remind me: are you taking antidepressants?


No


----------



## turnera

One of the side effects of depression is an inability to think clearly, to figure out problems, to make choices. We often recommend that BSs go on at least a temporary dose of ADs, for 3 or 4 months, just to help them keep their minds clear so they can make the decisions they need to make (and so they don't get further into depression). It may be something you want to consider, if it's starting to affect you like it sounds like.


----------



## LetDownNTX

I had to take anti depressants for a year after my WH left...they do help! I was put on a minimal dose but know some people on high doses. I dont know how some of them function.

Its a terrible place to be in and I feel horrible for you. Your story isnt alot different from mine in the ways that you are trying to get him back...its hard!


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Trying to think of things and I feel too depressed...just started reading a book by Brene Brown...Daring something...hope it helps me live an authentic life...that is all can hope for really


Kimmy this is all about getting the life you should of had all along. Look at yourself and think about this what would you like to be? Let me give you some examples these are things I have changed about myself

1. Learning French

2. Working out

3. Eating right to get the results for my workout

4. Finances are in order.

5. Learning massage

6. Getting out and meeting people going new places and doing new things. Rock climbing, tea shops, swimming etc.

7. Bought myself a new wardrobe to wear when I finally get rid of those pesky 15 pounds I have fought for a decade.


I have a picture of myself in my head of who and what I want to be and I am reading books and working at it. It gives me a great feeling to know that I can work and become who I want to be. So who would you like to be? How about some traits you want to grow out of? Some activities you have always been interested in? What sound like fun to you. Let your mind flow out onto the paths of probability and see yourself as the hero of your own story what would that hero look like?


----------



## GetTough

turnera said:


> Bullhockey. The poster is trying to HELP her save her marriage. By advising her to do what 95% of people with experience know that works. He IS playing her like a fiddle because she is ALLOWING him to EAT CAKE.
> 
> Why would he EVER give this up? He gets to hop from bed to bed without having to give either woman his full attention - it's what teenage boys dream about.
> 
> She may WANT to sex him back into her marriage but nearly every single professional's book or advice column out there - based on the experience of PROFESSIONALS - say that the only way to get him to CHOOSE kimmy is to stop feeding him cake. Has nothing to do with whether he is worth it. We are trying to show her that by respecting herself and saying her or me, he just MIGHT be willing to choose her over OW.


Also I feel that there is a not-insignificant chance Acabado is right... that he could be hurting her on purpose to have her let him go... at some moments. But still picking up the sex and enjoying the attention when he feels like it at other moment.

Of course if she persists and still refuses to respect what he is demonstrating he wants by having another woman and taking the divorce forward, ie that he is done (and will likely remain so emotionally until she lets him go), then he will eventually have no choice but to push her away *even harder* until she gets the message.

But he is conflicted. It's very much against a man's wiring to turn sex down. He's reluctant to burn that bridge. So he isn't quite to the point of pushing away hard yet.


----------



## turnera

Sometimes women have a hard time realizing JUST HOW IMPORTANT getting sex is to a guy, and what they will do for it. I know women who never grew up around males so have no idea just how much it dominates a lot of guys' minds. And, true, men typically believe why would I give up sex when it's being thrown at me?


----------



## GetTough

turnera said:


> Sometimes women have a hard time realizing JUST HOW IMPORTANT getting sex is to a guy, and what they will do for it. I know women who never grew up around males so have no idea just how much it dominates a lot of guys' minds. And, true, men typically believe why would I give up sex when it's being thrown at me?


He just does not have a clear vision for his life. Maybe he did at one time, I don't know. Once a man decides he's not going to play around anymore, that he wants to find someone special, to be exclusive with and cherish, then he has a vision that is aligned with what most women hope and dream for.

He clearly does not value OW that highly or he would not be cheating on her too. It is unlikely she is comfortable with him staying overnight with Kimmy. Basically he's sending both of these women a clear signal that he doesn't consider either of them "The One". So they would be well advised to heed that message and cut him loose if they are looking for true love.

This is why I feel that even if Kimmy wins him back, it will be a Pyrrhic victory for her. I wonder whether he EVER considered Kimmy "The One". So many men just settle into a relationship because its easier and they don't have the courage to do the right thing.


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> He just does not have a clear vision for his life. Maybe he did at one time, I don't know. Once a man decides he's not going to play around anymore, that he wants to find someone special, to be exclusive with and cherish, then he has a vision that is aligned with what most women hope and dream for.
> 
> He clearly does not value OW that highly or he would not be cheating on her too. It is unlikely she is comfortable with him staying overnight with Kimmy. Basically he's sending both of these women a clear signal that he doesn't consider either of them "The One". So they would be well advised to heed that message and cut him loose if they are looking for true love.
> 
> This is why I feel that even if Kimmy wins him back, it will be a Pyrrhic victory for her. I wonder whether he EVER considered Kimmy "The One". So many men just settle into a relationship because its easier and they don't have the courage to do the right thing.


We have been together 12 years and married 10...and he is confused and distraught and I hurt him very badly for 4 years...I know I am more important to him than you think....he may not be able to forgive me but that doesn't mean he never loved me...I am not giving up hope...I love him with all my heart and I have changed and hoping that he will see that one day...


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Kimmy this is all about getting the life you should of had all along. Look at yourself and think about this what would you like to be? Let me give you some examples these are things I have changed about myself
> 
> 1. Learning French
> 
> 2. Working out
> 
> 3. Eating right to get the results for my workout
> 
> 4. Finances are in order.
> 
> 5. Learning massage
> 
> 6. Getting out and meeting people going new places and doing new things. Rock climbing, tea shops, swimming etc.
> 
> 7. Bought myself a new wardrobe to wear when I finally get rid of those pesky 15 pounds I have fought for a decade.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have a picture of myself in my head of who and what I want to be and I am reading books and working at it. It gives me a great feeling to know that I can work and become who I want to be. So who would you like to be? How about some traits you want to grow out of? Some activities you have always been interested in? What sound like fun to you. Let your mind flow out onto the paths of probability and see yourself as the hero of your own story what would that hero look like?


Thank you for this...I have to make a list...think...my job fulfills me a lot but, I am off for the summer and I have got to think of what I like to do...I don't know what the hero of my story looks like right now...hmmmmm.....congratulations on your successes!!!! Wow, I am very impressed...

When I met my husband, I was very into working out and was a pretty much a hard body...but, I totally gave all that up and gained lots of weight...over the last year and a 1/2 both us had been doing Paleo....that is pretty much out the window, right now...but, I have lost 10 pounds anyway...still have another "pesky" 20 hanging on...need to eat better...need to eat, period...eating is difficult...

Also, when I met my husband, I had a goal to go skydiving that summer...he and my mom talked me out of it...now, I am not sure if that is a responsible goal to set, being a mom...

Travel has always been something I wanted to do...finances are so tight, right now though...and they will get even tighter if or when I have to be living on my own salary and child support...

I enjoy decorating and haven't ever gotten all the rooms in my house finished...plus, now, I am missing some furniture that he took...have summer projects of painting some furniture and maybe, the living room...my H and I have very different tastes in decorating...that could be part of my rebirth...painting and making my home "my style"...

Feeling a little better...thank you, CEL...


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> Hortensia, I was responding to this:
> If kimmy came here and said she just wants to be patted on the back and given attagirls, she should have said so. THAT is being 'supportive.' She came here for advice. And CEL continues to disparage anyone who doesn't agree with HER advice; I get that kimmy wants to follow CEL's advice, but she came here for advice, period. So if she continues to post - and says she feels it's not working, she's going to continue to be told that there is another way.


I did come here for support...I'm saying so


----------



## CEL

So I will post on skydiving tomorrow and my experiences. Glad you are doing better was getting worried


----------



## Affaircare

kimmycat said:


> A)...I don't know what the hero of my story looks like right now...
> 
> B) When I met my husband, I was very into working out and was a pretty much a hard body...
> 
> C) Also, when I met my husband, I had a goal to go skydiving that summer...
> 
> D) Travel has always been something I wanted to do...finances are so tight, right now though...
> 
> E) I enjoy decorating and haven't ever gotten all the rooms in my house finished... that could be part of my rebirth...painting and making my home "my style"...


A) Ah ha! You don't know the True You. You kind of "lost" her somewhere. That's cool. Just by thinking about her now, you'll start to find her and see her in your mind's eye again. True You is the heroine of your story. 

B) Okay here is where creativity comes into play. Not everyone is rich and so being who YOU are is not something that requires money or endless free time. However, you say started with the fact that you had a "hardbody." My guess is that maybe you had more time to exercise and maybe it was a higher priority--now you have less time and your priority is taking care of your child. Unfortunately you invested time and energy "back in the day" to looking GOOD and having a HOT body...and somewhere along the line you lost that part of True You. 

You may not be your perfect weight right now. That's okay! You don't have to be perfect before he'll love you or before you find True You. You may not be young or skinny anymore--I'm not! I'm 50yo with 7 kids, and it takes it's toll. But that is not what attracts a man! Shoot, young beautiful Hollywood stars lose their husbands every day! What DOES attract a man though, is that you think of yourself, inside your own head, as beautiful. You love your own self and body. You dress in a way that accentuates your curves and your best assets. You do something pretty with your hair and/or makeup that makes you look good. You smell clean and good--maybe a little cologne. 

True You, back in the day, wanted to look good. And maybe she was more interested in exercise. So if you can, join a gym. If you can't or can't afford it, that's cool. Join a softball league, or a walking club, or get a neighborhood lady and trade with her: she walks Mon-Wed-Frid and you walk Tue-Thur-Sat. 

C) Skydiving huh? Why anyone would step outside a perfectly fine operating airplane is beyond me, but more power to ya! :lol: Maybe you like things that are "adrenalin" exciting. Can you maybe bunge jump instead? Some bigger parks have those bunge things...maybe you could do that! 

D) Travel...Oh I am so with you it's not funny. I LOVE to travel! ADORE IT!! But we are poor as church mice right now. I can barely afford to pay attention! :rofl: So do I just give up my love of travel? OH NO! I buy maps and put them on my walls. Actually I decorated my family room with maps! I plan trips "as if" I was going to go: when would I leave? Would I fly or train? Which hotels? Where would I eat? The WHOLE THING!! And I watch travel shows on TV. Lame, I know but still...it's FREE which is within my budgetary restrictions. 

E) Again, I did this same thing. My exH was a guy who liked "beige" everything. I hate beige. It's like taupe only darker. Milktoast white! BLECH! Give me ruby and indigo and royal blue and lavendar...color! So when he left, there was a significant decrease in income, but I wanted color. Soooo...I got the most colorful royal color pillows I could find and threw them ALL OVER the house. I got very colorful $1 curtains that were more or less sheers...and put them behind my beige livingroom curtain and tied some more of them AROUND the beige curtains. LOL Dollar Store was my friend...and painting. I painted everything unless it was natural wood. 

See you don't need money to be True You. You just need to give yourself permission to be who you are and get a little creative. Think: "How can I accomplish this?" rather than "Well I can't...."


----------



## Affaircare

By the way, want to see the heroine of your story? True You?










Yeah that's right: Xena. Your True You is smart, beautiful, funny, pretty, not perfect, strong, sexy (even when she's fighting), fiesty and very capable just like Xena. People respect her and she accepts nothing less from anyone--from kings to beggars. 

So with that vision in mind, describe your inner Xena to us.


----------



## Hortensia

turnera said:


> Hortensia, I was responding to this:
> If kimmy came here and said she just wants to be patted on the back and given attagirls, she should have said so. THAT is being 'supportive.' She came here for advice. And CEL continues to disparage anyone who doesn't agree with HER advice; I get that kimmy wants to follow CEL's advice, but she came here for advice, period. So if she continues to post - and says she feels it's not working, she's going to continue to be told that there is another way.


I totally get that.
But it's clear that Kimmy doesn't want to give up. At least not while she's still technically married. So why not direct the support toward her goal - getting her husband back? why not believe in her dream of a happy family? Telling her to give up may be what people feel like it's the simplest way - why keep fighting for a man who we think is not worth it. We may, or we may not be correct. But it is not supportive. 
He may be a cake eater, or he may be a guy who was hurt in this marriage. We don't know him. But Kimmy loves him, and wants him back. I for one, decided to support her in this struggle, not making a goal of convincing her to give up.
You'd be amazed to hear how many seemingly impossible things my own relationship overcame, when everybody around was telling me to move on. I was stubborn and refused to give up. Because I loved him, fought for him, and today I am happy.


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> We have been together 12 years and married 10...and he is confused and distraught and I hurt him very badly for 4 years...I know I am more important to him than you think....he may not be able to forgive me but that doesn't mean he never loved me...I am not giving up hope...I love him with all my heart and I have changed and hoping that he will see that one day...


Not saying he DIDN'T love you. Just that he obviously doesn't love you NOW. 

True love means you care more for your loved one's feelings than your own. 

Is he showing that?


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> I did come here for support...I'm saying so


 Well, good luck, then.

Bowing out.


----------



## turnera

Hortensia said:


> I totally get that.
> But it's clear that Kimmy doesn't want to give up. At least not while she's still technically married. So why not direct the support toward her goal - getting her husband back? why not believe in her dream of a happy family? Telling her to give up


When have I EVER told her to give up?

I've told her repeatedly that EXPERTS in the field say if you want him BACK, you can't continue to feed him cake; you have to show you respect yourself so he will, too; you have to tell him her or me; you have to fight the affair.

Even Dr Harley says that if you do a PLan A you have to also ACTIVELY fight the affair at the same time. She is not doing that. She is trying to sex him back.

The advice I gave WAS TO GET HIM BACK.


----------



## LetDownNTX

Kimmy,

How long have you been doing what you have been doing in order to get your husband back? A few weeks? Do you honestly feel like you are winning him back, even a little? How much longer will you keep doing what you are doing before you consider doing something different that might draw him back in? Obviously what you are doing isnt working....noone wants you to kick him to the curb. Im all for R but when what you are doing isnt working you obviously have to try something else.


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> Not saying he DIDN'T love you. Just that he obviously doesn't love you NOW.
> 
> True love means you care more for your loved one's feelings than your own.
> 
> Is he showing that?


First, I was responding to get tough who did say he never loved me...

You're right, he definitely is not showing love or true love now...he is also going through a medical problem and is very stressed about that...


----------



## lenzi

kimmycat said:


> I totally gave all that up and gained lots of weight...over the last year and a 1/2 both us had been doing Paleo....that is pretty much out the window, right now...but, I have lost 10 pounds anyway...still have another "pesky" 20 hanging on...need to eat better...need to eat, period...eating is difficult...


You want the best shot at winning your husband back?

Lose the fat, get back that hard body, and don't be so attainable. 

Your perceived value to him goes way up if you aren't so easy to obtain and let's face it, guys are visual. The fat is a turn off, and in your situation which let's face it, is more desperate with each passing day, every pound counts.


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> When have I EVER told her to give up?
> 
> I've told her repeatedly that EXPERTS in the field say if you want him BACK, you can't continue to feed him cake; you have to show you respect yourself so he will, too; you have to tell him her or me; you have to fight the affair.
> 
> Even Dr Harley says that if you do a PLan A you have to also ACTIVELY fight the affair at the same time. She is not doing that. She is trying to sex him back.
> 
> The advice I gave WAS TO GET HIM BACK.


I yet want to say that I don't consider what I'm doing trying to sex him back...I must cannot NOT fulfill his need for sexual fulfillment after denying him that for 4 years...sex HAS to be part of the new me...just part...I don't feel bad, he's my husband and I don't care who he is living with or what...we are still not divorced...


----------



## kimmycat

lenzi said:


> You want the best shot at winning your husband back?
> 
> Lose the fat, get back that hard body, and don't be so attainable.
> 
> Your perceived value to him goes way up if you aren't so easy to obtain and let's face it, guys are visual. The fat is a turn off, and in your situation which let's face it, is more desperate with each passing day, every pound counts.



I agree even though he has always told me that he loves my body, even now, he says I look like Marilyn Monroe and she was definitely not a hard body...

However, I need to get into working out...at least starting on my recumbent bike, Reginald bike and walking for starters...I have some weights, too...

Joining a gym is out of the question at this time...can't afford any more bills...


----------



## kimmycat

Affaircare said:


> By the way, want to see the heroine of your story? True You?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah that's right: Xena. Your True You is smart, beautiful, funny, pretty, not perfect, strong, sexy (even when she's fighting), fiesty and very capable just like Xena. People respect her and she accepts nothing less from anyone--from kings to beggars.
> 
> So with that vision in mind, describe your inner Xena to us.


Cool! When my H met me, I had a black cat named Xena! That is a powerful model to follow! Thanks !


----------



## lenzi

kimmycat said:


> .I don't feel bad, he's my husband and I don't care who he is living with or what...we are still not divorced...


Do you care that he's lying to the other woman about having sex with you? Do you think that says something about his character and that maybe if he lies to the woman he's living with he might not be honest with you either?



kimmycat said:


> Joining a gym is out of the question at this time...can't afford any more bills...


You don't need a gym membership to get in shape.

Plenty of used equipment on Craig's list..people can't give the stuff away.


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> First, I was responding to get tough who did say he never loved me...
> 
> You're right, he definitely is not showing love or true love now...he is also going through a medical problem and is very stressed about that...


 I'm sorry, I can't resist.

Yeah, it's definitely THAT, that stress, that's causing him to bed two women at the same time while lying to both of them. Stress'll do that to you.

You're making excuses. He's hurting you because...


----------



## lenzi

turnera said:


> I'm sorry, I can't resist.


Don't you hate it when you get so discouraged by the actions of an Op that you post that you are leaving the thread and then they post something else that you just HAVE to respond to?

Been there..


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> I yet want to say that I don't consider what I'm doing trying to sex him back...I must cannot NOT fulfill his need for sexual fulfillment after denying him that for 4 years...sex HAS to be part of the new me...just part...I don't feel bad, he's my husband and I don't care who he is living with or what...we are still not divorced...


 kimmy, I DO understand the twisted logic you are using in your desperation. I do. After all, you're still married, right? Who cares if he's sleeping with another woman? Or twelve? As long as you're still married, you have a shot at not losing him.

And I DO understand that you ONCE pushed him away for 4 years out of 12 (as did millions of other women whose husbands did NOT resort to cheating). 

But you are ignoring the psychological aspect of what is going on. Read some books if you don't believe me. They nearly all say the same thing - what we can't have LOOKS AMAZING. What we have to beat away with a stick, we take for granted, we lose respect for, and we USE because they make it so easy.

You have now shown him that you WILL turn the sex machine back on. HE KNOWS IT NOW. He gets it. You're willing to have sex again. He scared that out of you. It's gone. 

But now what? I know in the twisted logic you're using if you can just show him what marriage to you would look like, he would choose it again. Maybe it could. I've seen it happen. Twice. In 15 years and thousands of cases just like yours. So good luck pursuing that goal. Just realize that, from a scientific perspective, you are doing the OPPOSITE of what human nature says you should do by lowering your WORTH in his eyes by desperately duking it out with his OW.

I hope it works out for you.


----------



## turnera

lenzi said:


> Don't you hate it when you get so discouraged by the actions of an Op that you post that you are leaving the thread and then they post something else that you just HAVE to respond to?
> 
> Been there..


 Well, I said I was bowing out because she specifically called out that she does NOT want advice, only support for the path she has chosen. So I'm trying hard to abide by that, unless responded to.


----------



## kimmycat

Affaircare said:


> A) Ah ha! You don't know the True You. You kind of "lost" her somewhere. That's cool. Just by thinking about her now, you'll start to find her and see her in your mind's eye again. True You is the heroine of your story.


Looking for the true me...trying to...lst her through focusing on being a mom and shutting down to my H for 4 years...need to see this as a time to be reborn...easier said than done with all this pain... 



Affaircare said:


> A)
> B) Okay here is where creativity comes into play. Not everyone is rich and so being who YOU are is not something that requires money or endless free time. However, you say started with the fact that you had a "hardbody." My guess is that maybe you had more time to exercise and maybe it was a higher priority--now you have less time and your priority is taking care of your child. Unfortunately you invested time and energy "back in the day" to looking GOOD and having a HOT body...and somewhere along the line you lost that part of True You.


Yes




Affaircare said:


> A)
> You may not be your perfect weight right now. That's okay! You don't have to be perfect before he'll love you or before you find True You. You may not be young or skinny anymore--I'm not! I'm 50yo with 7 kids, and it takes it's toll. But that is not what attracts a man! Shoot, young beautiful Hollywood stars lose their husbands every day! What DOES attract a man though, is that you think of yourself, inside your own head, as beautiful. You love your own self and body. You dress in a way that accentuates your curves and your best assets. You do something pretty with your hair and/or makeup that makes you look good. You smell clean and good--maybe a little cologne.
> 
> 
> Yes, my body image is not good but, my H has always said and still say that he just loves my body...
> 
> True You, back in the day, wanted to look good. And maybe she was more interested in exercise. So if you can, join a gym. If you can't or can't afford it, that's cool. Join a softball league, or a walking club, or get a neighborhood lady and trade with her: she walks Mon-Wed-Frid and you walk Tue-Thur-Sat.



Good ideas!



Affaircare said:


> A)
> C) Skydiving huh? Why anyone would step outside a perfectly fine operating airplane is beyond me, but more power to ya! :lol: Maybe you like things that are "adrenalin" exciting. Can you maybe bunge jump instead? Some bigger parks have those bunge things...maybe you could do that!


There is a place nearby that has bungee jumping...I know it sounds crazy, but, to me skydiving sounds sooooo much more appealing than bungee jumping...I really don't like rides or adrenaline...I think I wanted to skydive because it sounds so free...and safe at the same time because of the parachute...as I am older now, it kinda has lost its appeal...it was something I really wanted to do back then, though...



Affaircare said:


> A)
> D) Travel...Oh I am so with you it's not funny. I LOVE to travel! ADORE IT!! But we are poor as church mice right now. I can barely afford to pay attention! :rofl: So do I just give up my love of travel? OH NO! I buy maps and put them on my walls. Actually I decorated my family room with maps! I plan trips "as if" I was going to go: when would I leave? Would I fly or train? Which hotels? Where would I eat? The WHOLE THING!! And I watch travel shows on TV. Lame, I know but still...it's FREE which is within my budgetary restrictions.


I also plan trips! I also love the TRAVEL channel...but, my minimum cable package doesn't have that channel anymore...still, it is a goal...



Affaircare said:


> A)
> E) Again, I did this same thing. My exH was a guy who liked "beige" everything. I hate beige. It's like taupe only darker. Milktoast white! BLECH! Give me ruby and indigo and royal blue and lavendar...color! So when he left, there was a significant decrease in income, but I wanted color. Soooo...I got the most colorful royal color pillows I could find and threw them ALL OVER the house. I got very colorful $1 curtains that were more or less sheers...and put them behind my beige livingroom curtain and tied some more of them AROUND the beige curtains. LOL Dollar Store was my friend...and painting. I painted everything unless it was natural wood.


I am the one who likes beige everything! My H likes very heavy, dark, ornate, royal looking rooms...even though, lately, I have been very drawn to turquoise...would love to paint a wall in my living room that color. I even have a picture of a living room I would like to copy...



Affaircare said:


> A)
> See you don't need money to be True You. You just need to give yourself permission to be who you are and get a little creative. Think: "How can I accomplish this?" rather than "Well I can't...."



Yes, I need to start creatively figuring out ways that I CAN, instead of making excuses and thinking I CAN'T...like I always tell my students, "If you think you can't, you can't!". I don't know where I got that quote, but, I know it is true...


----------



## nishi_25

if he had moved on that quickly, u dont need to be with him why do u try to stay? wait some time, and god will find a man who really loves u hope u feel better soon


----------



## kimmycat

nishi_25 said:


> if he had moved on that quickly, u dont need to be with him why do u try to stay? wait some time, and god will find a man who really loves u hope u feel better soon


He MOVED ON last February...told me he wanted a D in March..filed in April...moved out June 7...

I want him back because, I realized that I love him and we have a son, 8...


----------



## lenzi

kimmycat said:


> I want him back because, I realized that I love him and we have a son, 8...


Lots of divorced people have children. They do ok. 

As far as love goes.. sometimes it's not enough.

Maybe there's another reason you want him back..?





turnera said:


> what we can't have LOOKS AMAZING. What we have to beat away with a stick, we take for granted, we lose respect for, and we USE because they make it so easy.


It's like that piece of crap stuffed animal at the fair.. a person who wins it will proudly display it, they'll treat it as some valuable item after they win it carrying it around half the night.. even though they probably spent more playing the carnival game than the thing is worth. Ultimately it will be on the top of the pile destined for the next garage sale. 

We want what we can't have. What we get on the cheap or for free has little to no perceived value or attraction. 

It's basic human nature and nothing's ever going to change that.


----------



## CEL

Wow sorry Kimmy you have taken some serious body shots I can't see them except when you respond to them but damn sorry you are taking them. So far you have been told to stop posting because it bothers people, then accused of sexing him to get him back "why not just call you a ****", then we have the tried and true that your husband does not love you and comparing you to a worthless stuffed animal. Whew that is some bad juju there. But hey they are all helping you right?

Well lets talk skydiving I did it for the first time when I was in my early 20's in my boundless child like wisdom I thought it would impress the ladies well can't say that worked out for me but it was a great experience. I went with a static line instead of tandem which I have never regretted. As my profile pic and profile indicate I am highly religious person I have studied and practices Raja Yoga, Ashtanga Yoga, Karma Yoga, Buddhism "Tibetan", Hinduism, British Traditional Witchcraft "Yes I have the degrees", and Christianity both main stream and fundamentalist. So why do I put that in there? Because I have to say that skydiving was if not my most religious experience it was in the top 5 including seeing my niece being born. First off just to sit in the plane with your legs hanging out is awesome especially if you are like me and terrified of heights. Then you walk out on the wing struts and let go falling backward. It feels like a surrender and in the moment I look back and realize you are surrendering to a higher power it is a really remarkable feeling that is worthy of introspection a truly divine surrender. Then you parachute opens once you get the lines untied you are get to see something remarkable. You see the world no real sound but a little wind you control where you are going and everything is just so SPECIAL you can see little people and little building you see trees that seem so tall are now so small. A peace overcame me something profound touched me at that time I thought this is how spirits and angels see the world. The world in one of the few times in my life seemed BLESSED. I could feel the blessedness of the world in a way that even today reflection back on an experience that happened about a decade ago is hard to put into words. When I witnessed my niece being born I realized that life was profound that life was special and that all life was a sacred. That no life was without the divine in it. I realized a moment of clarity that all people where in some way part of the divine it has taken me years to come to grips with that. As I for much of my life I have hated others and I do not use that word in any way except the most extreme. The skydiving was another such moment it was transcendent made manifest the world was unfolded in front of me and I was gifted with a vision of the the divine in this world. Now I did do it a second time but that one moment was never recaptured....and I stopped going they wanted me to take it up as a hobby and start packing parachutes and stuff and tho I thought I wanted to before the jumps I would have horrible nightmares due to my fear of heights so I stopped going. My advice is go once with the right things in mind and be open to being touched.

Ow the Paleo diet my friend has done that I just could not really get into it for some reason I found it to be expensive. How has it worked for you? Right now I am doing a body building diet so 1 gram of protein for every pound I want to weigh, lots of weight lifting with cardio, root vegetables and keeping my carbohydrates very low but not nonexistent. It work for me and seems to be a good plan but damn I really think the pool was invented by a demented evil mastermind inspired by Cthulu. 

As for working out I used to be REALLY into body weight exercises that can all be done at home if you wanted I could give you some links. Also you could try out Ashtanga Yoga the postures are geared toward making it a good workout while increasing flexibility especially if you have some lower back pain or have some reduced movements like we all get.


----------



## turnera

CEL said:


> But hey they are all helping you right?


I'll be interested to see her come back and update us in a couple years.


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> I'll be interested to see her come back and update us in a couple years.


I hope it will be a good update...now, ur just being mean


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> I hope it will be a good update...now, ur just being mean


Is that what they said? LOL I got tired of fighting them post by post so I just put it on my ignore list never had to use it before now.

I do want to say you are doing EVERYTHING you can do to save your marriage if he decides to not come back it is NOT your fault. Don't take things like this to seriously people want you to believe if you don't do this one thing that you are DOOMED. The fact is that life is more complicated than that it takes many decisions to make a bad marriage and it takes many decisions to make a good marriage. I think you are making the right ones and many people have come on here to support you. Keep you head up, you still got people who care and are praying for you.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Wow sorry Kimmy you have taken some serious body shots I can't see them except when you respond to them but damn sorry you are taking them. So far you have been told to stop posting because it bothers people, then accused of sexing him to get him back "why not just call you a ****", then we have the tried and true that your husband does not love you and comparing you to a worthless stuffed animal. Whew that is some bad juju there. But hey they are all helping you right?


Yes, I'm black and blue, alright...how come you can only see if I respond to them? I haven't responded to to all...



CEL said:


> Well lets talk skydiving I did it for the first time when I was in my early 20's in my boundless child like wisdom I thought it would impress the ladies well can't say that worked out for me but it was a great experience. I went with a static line instead of tandem which I have never regretted. As my profile pic and profile indicate I am highly religious person I have studied and practices Raja Yoga, Ashtanga Yoga, Karma Yoga, Buddhism "Tibetan", Hinduism, British Traditional Witchcraft "Yes I have the degrees", and Christianity both main stream and fundamentalist. So why do I put that in there? Because I have to say that skydiving was if not my most religious experience it was in the top 5 including seeing my niece being born. First off just to sit in the plane with your legs hanging out is awesome especially if you are like me and terrified of heights. Then you walk out on the wing struts and let go falling backward. It feels like a surrender and in the moment I look back and realize you are surrendering to a higher power it is a really remarkable feeling that is worthy of introspection a truly divine surrender. Then you parachute opens once you get the lines untied you are get to see something remarkable. You see the world no real sound but a little wind you control where you are going and everything is just so SPECIAL you can see little people and little building you see trees that seem so tall are now so small. A peace overcame me something profound touched me at that time I thought this is how spirits and angels see the world. The world in one of the few times in my life seemed BLESSED. I could feel the blessedness of the world in a way that even today reflection back on an experience that happened about a decade ago is hard to put into words. When I witnessed my niece being born I realized that life was profound that life was special and that all life was a sacred. That no life was without the divine in it. I realized a moment of clarity that all people where in some way part of the divine it has taken me years to come to grips with that. As I for much of my life I have hated others and I do not use that word in any way except the most extreme. The skydiving was another such moment it was transcendent made manifest the world was unfolded in front of me and I was gifted with a vision of the the divine in this world. Now I did do it a second time but that one moment was never recaptured....and I stopped going they wanted me to take it up as a hobby and start packing parachutes and stuff and tho I thought I wanted to before the jumps I would have horrible nightmares due to my fear of heights so I stopped going. My advice is go once with the right things in mind and be open to being touched.



Wow...incredible experience!!!! Thank you for sharing with such detail and awesomeness! I was wanting a profound experience...that is what was motivating me to do it at the time...a longing for just that kind of inspiration...gonna seriously consider it. I'm quite a bit older than you and was 35 when I wanted to do it...now, at 47, I'm a lot less daring, especially, since I know that I am a mom and that may not be the most responsible thing to want to do...

I am pretty sure that we only have tandem around here...



CEL said:


> Ow the Paleo diet my friend has done that I just could not really get into it for some reason I found it to be expensive. How has it worked for you? Right now I am doing a body building diet so 1 gram of protein for every pound I want to weigh, lots of weight lifting with cardio, root vegetables and keeping my carbohydrates very low but not nonexistent. It work for me and seems to be a good plan but damn I really think the pool was invented by a demented evil mastermind inspired by Cthulu.


Oh, definitely VERY expensive but, we were already buying organic and non-GMO, for veggies, fruits, eggs, dairy and grains so leaving out the dairy and grains and switching to grass fed and natural meats was not that much of a difference...even though, yes, very, very expensive..I started it due to acid reflux and a hiatal hernia and it completely helped...now, that I am back to eating whatever, and pretty much nothing...both are bothering me again...

The pool? Like a swimming pool? Been wanting to join and aquatic center and swim laps for exercise...mainly cuz it is so dang hot in Texas...and teachers get a discount...



CEL said:


> As for working out I used to be REALLY into body weight exercises that can all be done at home if you wanted I could give you some links. Also you could try out Ashtanga Yoga the postures are geared toward making it a good workout while increasing flexibility especially if you have some lower back pain or have some reduced movements like we all get.


I was working out with free weights, cardio equipment like the recumbent bike and the stair master and doing step aerobics. My instructor was a former ballerina who would work us VERY hard...I really got in shape because of her...she would get us to that runner's high...but, when she moved away...her replacement could not compare AND I met my H and he wasn't into exercising at all (unless you count golf...with a cart)...anyway, got out of the habit and gained A LOT of weight...about 50 pounds, including additional baby weight...anyway, now I have about 20 more to fighting weight...

Yoga...only tried that when I was prego...with a pregnancy DVD I bought and I just started too pregnant but, have always wanted to get into that for flexibility and peace...might start doing that with my WiiFit...

Well...guess, I've got a lot of things to think about...

Still have to make my 2 lists...


----------



## CEL

I can only see the ones you respond to and that is enough for me. To be honest I just had to normally I don't allow my friends to be attacked whether verbally or physically so I kept going on and fighting against the posts but realized it was doing more harm to your thread so I just figured out my ignore feature. I dealt with a lot of bad times where I had to suffer I always wanted people to stand up for me so it really was my last option. Sorry I can't do more.

The skydiving thing I would strongly recommend as it is really safe. You already do a lot more dangerous things and for what you get out of it I think it is priceless. If you are worried look into how safe it is but they are really really safe. LOL 47 you make is sound as if you are over the hill. Come on some of the most daring and beautiful women I have ever met are in their late 40's. You still got another 50 years in you! I am a firm believer that you are only as old as you want to be well as long as you take care of yourself and are open to life. 

Yeah my friend loved the Paleo diet and he lost weight but the money was just to much and he had to let it go. Problem is all the cheap food is bad for you......My buddy is also into the Cross Fit thing and he keeps pushing me but I am happy with my current stuff. There are a LOT of options you can always do a variation of the Paleo like just do whole foods all non processed it takes some cooking but is MUCH cheaper if you do it right.

Yep I was talking swimming pool of my entire work out I hate that one the most. I love lifting but when I go to the pool I swear Cthulu is laughing at me. I go for 20 minutes do one lap swimming and two laps with weights by the end I feel like dieing. Damn sad because I used to be a really good swimmer and I look better now than I did then but hey functional strength is not the same as physique. If you have the option I would do the swimming especially if you have a discount that is awesome set yourself a goal don't worry if you can't just do laps over and over you can do laps and walk/swim in between and they often have little foam weights you can use. If you do it let me know would love to share my hate with someone. 

My girl does not like to workout either and I was REALLY into fitness when I met her so I just got away from it. Now I realize how much it meant to me so I am back in it. If the Yoga think is something you want to try let me know and I can help you out I have some books I could send to your kindle if you have the app. Or I can take some screen shots. Ashtanga Yoga is what MOST of the Power Yogas, Hot Yogas, Fit Yogas are all based off of so I can introduce you to the fundamental postures it will REALLY make a difference if done right it really is like moving meditation. The Asana's of Yoga were originally designed to make the body more pliable to be able to stay in meditation longer but since they have moved away from that still combining the two has GREAT results. If you are looking to keeping your body in working order as you get older I STRONGLY recommend Yoga the leading cause of injuries as you get older is lack of flexibility you all know the joke about the hip. I go through phases of weightlifting and Yoga but if I had to pick for just quality of life it would be Yoga as it just keeps you young feeling.

Good stuff to think about tho either way this goes you have a lot of stuff that at least sounds like fun for you and a lot of new friends, life is not all bad


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> First, I was responding to get tough who did say he never loved me...
> 
> You're right, he definitely is not showing love or true love now...he is also going through a medical problem and is very stressed about that...


Kimmy, well that's not what I meant. He most likely did love you. I was wondering whether he settled. Plenty of people marry people they love but are still settling. But the point is right now he loves you even less than a woman he's willing to cheat on and lie to! You will not win this man back by pursuing him, you will only prolong your pain.


----------



## Hortensia

I agree with Cel. Since him and Affaircare are the only ones to have offered positive and kind advice, maybe Kimmy should consider closing the thread and take those conversations further in PM. Avoid the beating down and sarcasm that she doesn't need. And, if you need to talk, PM me anytime too, Kimmy. Put on a smile, and keep up a positive attitude!


----------



## turnera

I gave no beating down and no sarcasm. I told her what is statistically far more likely to help her get her husband back. She was just unwilling to consider other options than CEL's. And now that I know CEL is a male, it makes more sense what he is urging. Maybe that would work for HIM, if he were in her husband's situation, so maybe it will work. I sure hope so.


----------



## GetTough

Hortensia said:


> I agree with Cel. Since him and Affaircare are the only ones to have offered positive and kind advice, maybe Kimmy should consider closing the thread and take those conversations further in PM. Avoid the beating down and sarcasm that she doesn't need. And, if you need to talk, PM me anytime too, Kimmy. Put on a smile, and keep up a positive attitude!


I disagree with your assessment. Sometimes the kindest thing one can do is tell people they are messing up. Everything I've read about this for years, and my own experience has convinced me that holding on to someone who is disinterested invariably just --does not turn out well-- It is clear as day that this man is interested only as far as the sex goes. He no longer loves her.

If someone told you they were going to rob a bank would it be kind and positive to be supportive of that? To say, yes well I can see where you are coming from... you need the money... I think it's worth a shot...

No, the kind and supportive thing is to say, look I don't think this is a good idea. A more positive and fulfilling life for you is possible if you let go. A quicker recovery for you is possible if you let go. And paradoxically you stand a better chance of getting the love you want (whether its him back or someone else) if you let go.


----------



## LetDownNTX

Hey Cel, just for ****s and giggles, I wondered if you blocked me too? I dont think that Ive been mean or cruel. As a matter of fact Ive been pretty honest considering Ive been in an almost identical situation as she is in. Its rather frustrating that she doesnt even consider the advice of those that have been there and done that!

And Kimmy, you still never answered my last post....how long do you plan on doing what you are doing and not getting the results you want? Its not a mean or cruel question, its an honest question!


----------



## kimmycat

LetDownNTX said:


> Hey Cel, just for ****s and giggles, I wondered if you blocked me too? I dont think that Ive been mean or cruel. As a matter of fact Ive been pretty honest considering Ive been in an almost identical situation as she is in. Its rather frustrating that she doesnt even consider the advice of those that have been there and done that!
> 
> And Kimmy, you still never answered my last post....how long do you plan on doing what you are doing and not getting the results you want? Its not a mean or cruel question, its an honest question!


I got so many posts and I thought I answered most if not all..but, I went back and see that I did skip yours...

He moved out June 7...so, I guess I have been trying Plan A for 6 weeks...I really do think it is helping and working but it is very slow...

At first, he was pretty much not considering coming back at all...yesterday and today he spent the day with my son and I and we had some time talk alone and I asked him to come home and this time he answered, we're no there yet...that is a huge improvement...

Like I said before, I plan on continuing this until the divorce is final in August...don't know the exact date of the hearing...if he postpones it again...not sure of I should keep doing the same thing or change course cuz if he postpones it again, it might be working...just not good enough to bring him home YET...instill have hope...


----------



## CEL

LetDownNTX said:


> Hey Cel, just for ****s and giggles, I wondered if you blocked me too? I dont think that Ive been mean or cruel. As a matter of fact Ive been pretty honest considering Ive been in an almost identical situation as she is in. Its rather frustrating that she doesnt even consider the advice of those that have been there and done that!
> 
> And Kimmy, you still never answered my last post....how long do you plan on doing what you are doing and not getting the results you want? Its not a mean or cruel question, its an honest question!


No I have not. But as for being nice you advised her to stop posting and take it private. When have you ever done that? People come her because they have no where to go, how would you feel if when you came here for help someone told you to go away? 

As for the situations being the same.

1. Your husband did not file for divorce instead he tried to keep you both.

2. You did not deny him sex for 4 years.

3. He had not previously begged for you to work on the marriage.

4. In your relationship you were the giver he the taker. This is why the 180 worked for you.

This is not a contest of who's advice is better the only thing we should be concerned about is how Kimmy is doing and how best to help her. Attacks against me and Kimmy or manipulative statements designed to evoke a negative emotional response are usually counterproductive in any situation. 

In the future if anyone would like to confront/attack/debate please do it through PM.


----------



## Hortensia

Lol Cel, I think it was me who you mean. I suggested that she stopped posting and take it private with the ones willing to be supportive.
Didn't mean it like she should go away, very far from that. Meant it like maybe it's a good idea to stay focused on the path she chose by avoiding any negativity.
I think the "we're not there yet" is a big step forward, from not even considering it at all. Don't lose hope, Kimmy, stay focused, and stay positive -remember what we talked.


----------



## CEL

No it was her she said since Kimmy won't listen to anyone else she should do it. Your point was more that Kimmy should not have to be beaten up. It was back a few pages tho. Great to see you by the way always like a friend to have my back


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## Hortensia

Well, I always thought that people in various states of mind have different perspective. I happen to be have a very happy outlook on life, and that's because staying focused on my goal, even when it seemed a lost cause, worked wonders. I don't see why a wonder shouldn't happen to Kimmy, as long as she doesn't give up and she puts her heart into it.
The other people may be right in their way, but just not for what Kimmy wants ( and yes, what she wants is possible). They've been there and done that. But did they get their spouse back? I doubt. 
So, if she was looking for support on how to start her life without hubby and get over it, I had pretty good ideas to offer on that too.But it's not what she's seeking, at least not until she finished trying here. So full support from my side !  
Btw, I'll love to read her update 2-3 months later about how happy she and her returned hubby are.


----------



## LetDownNTX

CEL said:


> No I have not. But as for being nice you advised her to stop posting and take it private. When have you ever done that? People come her because they have no where to go, how would you feel if when you came here for help someone told you to go away?
> 
> As for the situations being the same.
> 
> 1. Your husband did not file for divorce instead he tried to keep you both.
> 
> 2. You did not deny him sex for 4 years.
> 
> 3. He had not previously begged for you to work on the marriage.
> 
> 4. In your relationship you were the giver he the taker. This is why the 180 worked for you.
> 
> This is not a contest of who's advice is better the only thing we should be concerned about is how Kimmy is doing and how best to help her. Attacks against me and Kimmy or manipulative statements designed to evoke a negative emotional response are usually counterproductive in any situation.
> 
> In the future if anyone would like to confront/attack/debate please do it through PM.



I suggested she take it private with you because it appeared that the only comments she was replying to were those that came from you. You are a guy and guys and girls dont usually think the same.

Whether every detail to my relationship issues with my husband are/were identical to hers or not I know what she is feeling and I know how much it sucks to have your WH come over, pretend to be family for a little while and then leave to go back to the OW for the night. That is why I get frustrated with this because YOU havent been there, you never will because you are a guy!!

As for coming here and asking for advice...you get all kinds and you might not always agree with it but why continue to post and just reply to the comments that you like? I have gotten my fair share of 2X4's and although its not what I want to hear its the truth and sometimes the truth hurts and needs to be heard!


----------



## 2ntnuf

GetTough said:


> Kimmy, well that's not what I meant. He most likely did love you. I was wondering whether he settled. Plenty of people marry people they love but are still settling. But the point is right now he loves you even less than a woman he's willing to cheat on and lie to! You will not win this man back by pursuing him, you will only prolong your pain.


Everyone settles. There is no one that can match the picture you hold in your head. No one can be perfect for you. It's simply impossible. We choose the best mate possible within various limitations such as where we live and travel. What are income is. The places we go for fun and relaxation, etc. 

The other factors which prove we settle are that we all change over time. We are not the same people who got married ten or more years ago. So, we then either find the better match, learn and grow together or look for someone who we don't have to work with as much. We still will have to work with them, but it may be easier if they are much closer in tune with our new ideas about how to live, laugh and love. 

Sometimes it is necessary to break up. Many times it is a very hasty decision. The thing is, since each of us is different, we must choose the path we think is best for us until we decide that it is not longer worth following. That is an individual choice. 

The possible consequences of different paths need to be outlined and understood. As much education as possible should be absorbed. It will only ease the pain if things do not work out the way we hoped.


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## kimmycat

Update:

We had a very nice visit yesterday...he was her from about 1:00-6:30...yes, there was sex...other that that we pretty much sat outside and talked...I asked him to come home cuz I couldn't resist and he said that we weren't ready for that YET...then, proceeded to talk about his best friend telling him that if he had any doubt that he should come home...no I love yous even when he left but he did say he would come to swimming lessons today and he said he would come over after...just called now to say hi and see how we are doing...he did not do that all last week...and he said he would come over after...

still hoping, still reading Daring Greatly...


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## karole

Kimmy, I honestly hope things work out for you. I think everyone here does - whether you agree with their advice or not.


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## kimmycat

Update: we had a very nice visit today,too..he came by swimming lessons and then, came over for dinner and a little talking...nothing serious...said he would be busy tomorrow...but, just texted a little whole ago to see how we are doing! I texted back that we had just watched a movie and made ice cream sundaes...said we missed him and he wrote back that it sounds fun and he misses us, too...HE NEVER CALLS OR TEXTS AT NIGHT SO I SEE THAT AS PROGRESS...plus, he called from work today and he hasn't done that in over a week...


----------



## CEL

That is AWESOME Kimmy keep up the great work sounds like he is making some progress from his side. Hopes are with ya


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## kimmycat

No visit to swimming lessons or visit but he had said he would be working late...

He texted while at swimming that he was stuck at office and I sent back no problem

Now, about 20 minutes ago he texted that he just got home...then, asked if we were okay and son okay and I just sent back yeah and he wrote back you ok? And I said okay, Ty and God bless u, and he wrote back God bless y'all too and then...soooo much and I texted back ??? And he texted back God bless y'all sooooo much....and I wrote back same to you, praying for u, us and family everyday...he wrote back ok good  and I ended back with ...

Probably should have said that last part but I couldn't help it...that is the second night of texts at night...that HAS to be a good sign...


----------



## CEL

It is a good sign and don't beat yourself up like I said no one action will win the battle and no one action will make you lose the battle. Just keep your head up and keep your spirits high. How are those lists coming? Did you decide on whether you were going to take up swimming?


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> It is a good sign and don't beat yourself up like I said no one action will win the battle and no one action will make you lose the battle. Just keep your head up and keep your spirits high. How are those lists coming? Did you decide on whether you were going to take up swimming?


Still haven't done the lists...haven't decided on swimming because totally broke...totally...payday is Thursday and already did my budget and am going to be short if he gives what will be child support this month...we haven't talked about it but, I hope he pays the bills again this month...have to work on budget..

Been spending time with son playing video games and watching movies...trying to keep my mind busy...

Now, just reading threads on Coping with Infidelity...not finding any comfort in that, just frustrated...sad...


----------



## CEL

Yeah looking for comfort in the infidelity sections is rough. I know the broke feeling I got a few bucks but it is all for food if I can make it 2 weeks I should be sitting pretty but the next 2 weeks are going to be rough. sigh. Someone told me this was going to get easier as I got older. LOL.

Sounds like you are doing the right thing spending time with your son sounds good for both you and him. You can do what I do don't bother trouble the future will handle itself it has been doing that longer than I have been alive and I think it will continue to do it just fine without me worrying about it.


----------



## Affaircare

So to get back on topic, kimmy, what did you do today that was not waiting around to base your life on whether or not your husband was or was not coming over in order to reclaim your Xena?

I'm not saying that his coming over and texting aren't good. I think they are EXTREMELY good. I also think him saying "we aren't there YET" is telling. But he is considering it because he sees that not only do you say you're different...you are ACTING different. 

Sooooo...it is vitally important to get back to your Xena!

You said you were going to make some lists. Did you make them? You don't have to share them but just saying yes or no is cool  What is ONE THING you can pick to do, today, to get back your inner Xena? Want to lift weights today? Want to buy some beige for your room (lol)? Pick ONE thing that is the True You..the one he fell in love with back in the day...and tell us about the ONE thing you chose to do.

I have named my inner me "True Me"...so today my True Me move was that I stopped working when I wanted my day to end, and I spent the whole night enjoying a movie that I liked with my Dear Hubby. I am a HUGE movie buff, and it was one I had requested and liked (with or without him)...but it's SO MUCH MORE FUN to share it with him. So I met needs and he met needs, and my "True Me" was out and about.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Yeah looking for comfort in the infidelity sections is rough. I know the broke feeling I got a few bucks but it is all for food if I can make it 2 weeks I should be sitting pretty but the next 2 weeks are going to be rough. sigh. Someone told me this was going to get easier as I got older. LOL.
> 
> Sounds like you are doing the right thing spending time with your son sounds good for both you and him. You can do what I do don't bother trouble the future will handle itself it has been doing that longer than I have been alive and I think it will continue to do it just fine without me worrying about it.


Oh, finances definitely get better as you get older...readjusting to a single income household...difficult no matter what...just can't I'm the budget any more...

Spending time with son is great..really helping

Plus, the last 4 days, I have ridden my recumbent bike and done some arm weights...just trying to get into working out again...

I wrote the lists...well, I got 10 good things for a new marriage and only got 6 good things about moving on....I'll keep working on them.

No word today from H...


----------



## kimmycat

Affaircare said:


> So to get back on topic, kimmy, what did you do today that was not waiting around to base your life on whether or not your husband was or was not coming over in order to reclaim your Xena?
> 
> I'm not saying that his coming over and texting aren't good. I think they are EXTREMELY good. I also think him saying "we aren't there YET" is telling. But he is considering it because he sees that not only do you say you're different...you are ACTING different.
> 
> Sooooo...it is vitally important to get back to your Xena!
> 
> You said you were going to make some lists. Did you make them? You don't have to share them but just saying yes or no is cool  What is ONE THING you can pick to do, today, to get back your inner Xena? Want to lift weights today? Want to buy some beige for your room (lol)? Pick ONE thing that is the True You..the one he fell in love with back in the day...and tell us about the ONE thing you chose to do.
> 
> I have named my inner me "True Me"...so today my True Me move was that I stopped working when I wanted my day to end, and I spent the whole night enjoying a movie that I liked with my Dear Hubby. I am a HUGE movie buff, and it was one I had requested and liked (with or without him)...but it's SO MUCH MORE FUN to share it with him. So I met needs and he met needs, and my "True Me" was out and about.


Well, I am exercising! I am riding my recumbent bike for 7 minutes (working up to 30), doing arm weights and doing balance exercises with WiiFit Plus...

I made the lists...got to 10 for new marriage and could only think of 6 for moving on...

I like movies, too, and have been enjoying watching them with my son...

Thank you so much for your post!!!!


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## karole

How did the weekend go Kimmy?


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## kimmycat

karole said:


> How did the weekend go Kimmy?


Not good...H only came over to babysit Saturday when I went to IC appointment and had to be somewhere about an hour after..

I heard nothing from him on Sunday...

I did ask him if he has a court date for our Divorce to be final and it is August 6. I asked him if he was going to postpone it and he said he doesn't think so...then, he said that even if it goes through, it doesn't mean we can't still have a chance...then, he said, "I'm not gonna say I'm happy and I'mnot gonna say I'm unhappy, it's just not what I'm used to...don't think I'm am having a great time, don't think a minute doesn't go by that I don't think of my family."...then, he left.

Very sad


----------



## Acabado

I believe you need to reevaluate your aproach depending on his August 6 decision.
At the end of day, no matter the advice of the different posters here we all now thre must be a deadline. He can extend this situation ad infinitum... as long as you remain his secret (becasue let's face, in "real life" he's having a relationship with this woman in the open, their friends believe they are starting a new life).

I'm sorry thigns are not going in the direction you want.


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## karole

Kimmy, do you think your husband feels any guilt at all for the way he is treating you and yes, even the way he is treating the OW? I honestly do not know how he can sleep at night.


----------



## kimmycat

Here are emails from today...yes, broke down and wrote dramatic email...IC says I need
to be authentic with him.

They read from the bottom up:

Response from me:
I know...I respect and understand 
your feelings. I will continue to
pray for our love and for God to
help us. I pray for God to heal
us from our past and show us the
way.

I still see you standing on that
putt-putt course when God showed
me that you're the one...


On Jul 29, 2013, at 11:13 AM, H wrote:

Wow, yes I remember this.

I am too sorry for all we have done. I just wish you would have changed and realized all of this earlier. We had a lot of wasted life and time over the last 4 years or so.
I don’t know at this time what the future holds for us W. It is all very complicated now, and I am fearful of going back to where we were. That wouldn’t be fair to any of us.

H


From: Me
Sent: Monday, July 29, 2013 11:07 AM
To: H
Subject: Fwd: Love Commandments

I am praying for God to forgive
me for all I have done and then,
maybe, you can...I love you with
all my heart and always will...


Begin forwarded message:

From: Me
Date: August 12, 2009, 4:40:04 PM CDT

Subject: Love Commandments


You sent me this on 1/17/2002. We weren't even engaged yet!

"Hello, my love,

Thank you for being the most wonderful person in my life. I am indeed the luckiest man in the entire world. Thank you so much, my love.

I promise to be patient and understanding with all of the trials and tribulations life may throw at us.

I promise to be appreciative and grateful for the wonderful experiences we have shared, and for the many more to come.

I promise to love and respect you, now and forever.

I promise to cherish and hold dear in my heart all of the magical moments and memories of our lives together.

I promise to hold and hug you whenever necessary, whether it be for a shoulder to lean on or just because.

I promise to be supportive and compassionate to your goals and needs.

I promise to be loyal and faithful in every way possible, as the noblest knight to his Queen.

I promise to practice and encourage the righteous ways of perfect life.

I promise to listen and value every word you speak.

I promise to be sensitive and responsive to everything your heart and mind shall say.

I promise to laugh and cry when my feelings agree.

I promise to be noble and honest all the days of my life.

I promise to honor and confide to our promises and bonds that we create together.

All in all my love, these may just be words, but for me... these are commandments. I will hold these close to me, so that I never forget...the promises that I made....to W."


WOW! I think we forgot these promises and I truly hope that we have remembered them on time because I love you with all my heart and want us to last forever...Me


----------



## kimmycat

karole said:


> Kimmy, do you think your husband feels any guilt at all for the way he is treating you and yes, even the way he is treating the OW? I honestly do not know how he can sleep at night.


He says he can't sleep at night...yes, I think he feels guilt...see emails above from today...


----------



## kimmycat

Acabado said:


> I believe you need to reevaluate your aproach depending on his August 6 decision.
> At the end of day, no matter the advice of the different posters here we all now thre must be a deadline. He can extend this situation ad infinitum... as long as you remain his secret (becasue let's face, in "real life" he's having a relationship with this woman in the open, their friends believe they are starting a new life).
> 
> I'm sorry thigns are not going in the direction you want.


I plan on going with Plan B after August 6th...truly don't know what the right thing to do now...

Thank you for your post...I am lost and I finally realized that I wanted my marriage and my husband when it was maybe, too late...


----------



## karole

He doesn't " want to go back to the way things were because that wouldn't be fair," but he thinks what he is doing now is fair?


----------



## kimmycat

karole said:


> He doesn't " want to go back to the way things were because that wouldn't be fair," but he thinks what he is doing now is fair?


I think he feels that I shut him out for so long that it was fair that he would move on because he talked to me sooooo many times and I even told him many times to find someone else...yes, I was adamant that things were done with us for 4 years...then, when, he filed, I had a change of heart that was slow...then, sudden, after a couple of weeks that we had a great Mother's Day weekend...at that time, he kept saying he was angry because it was like a switch was turned on and suddenly, I loved him and wanted him...

All those "talks" we had didn't get through to me but his ACTIONS by filing and treating me so special for Mother's Day opened my heart and now, it won't close again...


----------



## CEL

I think your plan is great let him know that once divorce things will change. You will need space to heal from it that means that you will need distance. Basically you guys only talk about financials and your son. This is not a threat but it is how it must be for you to be able to move on.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> I think your plan is great let him know that once divorce things will change. You will need space to heal from it that means that you will need distance. Basically you guys only talk about financials and your son. This is not a threat but it is how it must be for you to be able to move on.


And, then, I need to start letting my son stay over with him every other weekend and he needs to have him on evening during the week...so, he will have to told about OW and meet her and everything...this is not what I want but, I don't see any way around it...


----------



## CEL

Gives you that weekend to go out with friends or to go to the gym.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Gives you that weekend to go out with friends or to go to the gym.


It does, but, I can't help feeling guilty about letting my son know about the OW...I really don't want him to think that Daddy left both of us for her...I don't know why I keep thinking that is worse when, maybe, it isn't...I don't know how he will react or if it will hurt him more or not...I just know that it sure hurt me sooooooo much more....


----------



## karole

That is something your husband needs to explain to him Kimmy.


----------



## 2ntnuf

My heart is breaking for you.


----------



## kimmycat

2ntnuf said:


> My heart is breaking for you.


Thank you...this pain is so much, I don't know how I am bearing it...


----------



## karole

2ntnuf said:


> My heart is breaking for you.


mine too.........................


----------



## kimmycat

karole said:


> mine too.........................



Thank u...sigh....


----------



## karole

Kimmy, go back and read Tunera's posts to you.


----------



## bbsbwk

I followed the story and I can't help feeling pity for the husband. I know all these people are calling on him for two-timing both women, calling him a cheater...but he doesn't sound like one to me.

At first it sounded like he's cheating but then we found out slowly in Kimmy's replies that he put up for 4 years of loveless and sexless marriage. He didn't cheat back then (at least not in Kimmy's knowledge). He tried again and again to communicate and open the intimate connection with Kimmy. But Kimmy rejected him again and again, then went ahead to let him know that the marriage is over and she doesn't want him. He's finally defeated and Kimmy further to tell him to go find someone else. So he met someone and did the right thing -- he filed for divorce. She agreed. Then after a LONG period of time (a year?) Kimmy suddenly had a last minute change of heart. Sorry Kimmy, not everyone and everything has to yield to your pacing. In the husband mind, when they were separated and filed the D he finally made the hard decision to find love and affection as a single man again. Kimmy tell him to date outside, so he met someone promising and is getting this opportunity to find love again (with wife's blessing too). Yet Kimmy just now changed her mind and put him in such an awkward position. What a cruel thing to do to someone. And now he get accused of being a 'cheater', being unfair..blah blah....

Of course he's confused now and feel like 'testing' things out because of the uncertainty. He was finally moving on and found a new relationship, yet his stobxw suddenly seduced him and wanted intimacy and sex again. He's caught inbetween the past and the present. Basically Kimmy created her own hell with her bad timing and dragged her soon-to-be-ex-husband (and the new GF) with her. Anyway I have way more pity for the new girlfriend, then the husband... I just can't sympathize with anyone who thinks the world should revolve around her and waits and react for her, and play such a cruel joke to her husband and damn him in this dilemma hell.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Yes. There was confusion all around, wasn't there? Doesn't it break your heart to wonder what in hell caused all of the confusion that led to this? It seems a shame that two people in love found themselves in this position. What actually led to kimmy not wanting him? What led to her decision to R? So many questions. 

Why would someone tell their spouse, whom they love, that it was over? Why would that spouse give up on their own life? What led to that? I have difficulty believing kimmy just didn't care. I am inclined to believe there was something that led kimmy to believe she was not good enough for him. I am inclined to believe she somehow dug deep and found that she really did care about herself enough to try to be happy again. I am inclined to believe he was most happy when he was with her or he would not consider sleeping with her. He knows what that does to his mental state. Doesn't he?

If not, well.......Anyway, it is a very sad state of affairs which seems it could go either way. It seems reasonable for him to be afraid things will go back to the way they were. I don't know. I'm rambling on now.

I can see it from her side better than his. It must be devastating for him to not understand her position. Somehow their communication must have been lacking. Don't you think?

Anyway, good luck to you, kimmy. It is not over for you, even if your marriage is over. You have learned a lot. If you can't R, maybe you can make a better life for yourself, one that will make you less frustrated and happier.

Sorry for the rant, kimmy. I'll get out of here now.


----------



## Affaircare

Okay before anyone replies with something harsh to bbsbwk, I want you all to consider something. In real life, this may be the EXACT way that Kimmy's husband or the GF/OW might feel. 

Now it may not be all pretty to us, and it may hurt to hear, and we may not like it, but it is honest. 

All too often I hear people say "I could have handled the truth if you had just been honest with me" and then hear something like this--something a little hurtful and distasteful--and they go off and rage and 2x4. Hey it's no wonder people keep the truth to themselves!

So bbsbwk, let me reply to you. I can see how you'd say that because yep....for four years she didn't get the message. Four years is a LONG, LONG time for a man to be hurt and rejected by his wife over and over again. It feels like your heart is drying out and dying bit by bit, until finally a person says "If I let this last bit dry up and die...*I* will die. I have to go."

I get that and I think Kimmy does too. I think we (and she) mostly had hope that maybe it wasn't too late. That maybe the scale fell off her eyes soon enough and she had time to demonstrate the difference in her. It's like a light at the end of the tunnel--while you're still IN the tunnel, it's still dark and kind of scary but you see that light down there and there is hope that at some point, you'll get to that "light." 

And basically you're right. Kimmy did create her own hell by choosing to shut down and close out her husband. BUT (and it's a big but), unlike so many people, she had the courage and strength to admit she was wrong....AND STOP DOING IT!! A lot of people will say "Yeah Yeah I was wrong yada yada" and they don't mean it. They keep right on doing it. A lot of people are too prideful to even admit they were wrong!! Not Kimmy. She may have been wrong, but hey, who hasn't done something wrong in their lifetime? Shoot we all have! So she had the courage to admit it to herself and others, AND to turn it around and be different.

Also, maybe it's just me and I'm a stickler, but in my mind when two people make promises to each other, when they have integrity they honor their promises. Good bad or otherwise, he stood before a judge and family and promised to love her until he died. She hurt him--yep that's true. She did things wrong--no arguing. But he promised, and he broke the promise before he took the legal steps necessary to free him from that promise. In my mind, I just don't think that's cool and it is unfaithful. 

So she hurt him--he hurt her--and they made promises and have a child together. To me, if she's willing to change and he's willing to also admit his part, that's something worth trying to save. So I do hope she will keep trying and that LIKE HER, he will open his eyes and see that he can do it and rebuild with her--the mother of his child and his wife.


----------



## kimmycat

bbsbwk said:


> I followed the story and I can't help feeling pity for the husband. I know all these people are calling on him for two-timing both women, calling him a cheater...but he doesn't sound like one to me.
> 
> At first it sounded like he's cheating but then we found out slowly in Kimmy's replies that he put up for 4 years of loveless and sexless marriage. He didn't cheat back then (at least not in Kimmy's knowledge). He tried again and again to communicate and open the intimate connection with Kimmy. But Kimmy rejected him again and again, then went ahead to let him know that the marriage is over and she doesn't want him. He's finally defeated and Kimmy further to tell him to go find someone else. So he met someone and did the right thing -- he filed for divorce. She agreed. Then after a LONG period of time (a year?) Kimmy suddenly had a last minute change of heart. Sorry Kimmy, not everyone and everything has to yield to your pacing. In the husband mind, when they were separated and filed the D he finally made the hard decision to find love and affection as a single man again. Kimmy tell him to date outside, so he met someone promising and is getting this opportunity to find love again (with wife's blessing too). Yet Kimmy just now changed her mind and put him in such an awkward position. What a cruel thing to do to someone. And now he get accused of being a 'cheater', being unfair..blah blah....
> 
> Of course he's confused now and feel like 'testing' things out because of the uncertainty. He was finally moving on and found a new relationship, yet his stobxw suddenly seduced him and wanted intimacy and sex again. He's caught inbetween the past and the present. Basically Kimmy created her own hell with her bad timing and dragged her soon-to-be-ex-husband (and the new GF) with her. Anyway I have way more pity for the new girlfriend, then the husband... I just can't sympathize with anyone who thinks the world should revolve around her and waits and react for her, and play such a cruel joke to her husband and damn him in this dilemma hell.


It wasn't like that...but, I see your point...he had an EA and I had a
miscarriage 4 years ago...that is what started all
this...

He met her in Feb, filed end of April, I turned around
in May...before she moved here, before he moved
out...

I see your point...I'm still devastated, heartbroken and
wish I could turn back time but I can't....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bbsbwk

All of Kimmy's actions (and inaction) for this whole ordeal seems to show that she's a very selfish person, with a lack of empathy. For 4 years she refused to work on the marriage, shut down, to punish him or what not, false R, when the D is filed and a year later, now it's suddenly all about her pain and her lost. Of course it's always only her own pain that she can feel. What about the pain and rejection the husband had to endure for 4 years? If she's the kind of person (at the age of 40s) incapable of understand this kind of pain your own husband is going through...maybe they just don't click at all because Kimmy is by nature, a truly selfish person.

Her current action is also selfish in nature. It's not about his happiness and contentment. It's all about her own pain. Who cares if she put him in such an awkward, confused dilemma. Sex, first and foremost to her, is more of a manipulation scheme to win him back, rather than a genuine desire and any sort of true connection she felt for him. It could all be a false 'preview' for him because the sex right now was not without agenda. Even the timing of who saids 'I Love You" first, the careful plan of asking him to stay and....everything is more of a game dressed in heartaches. So if the husband do decide to came back to her, wouldn't there be a high chance all these will all go pouf because there's no desperate effort to make anymore? If their problem was her inability to feel intimate toward him, her inability to emphasize his suffering, and that she treat sex as a 'tool' to win at her favor...I find it absurd she can keep up that long. 

She's being so conveniently vague about what her issue was, why the frightening long-time shut down, why the ridiculous lack of empathy toward her husband's suffering, why the absurd delusion that another living human is suppose to put his life/emotions on hold for her in her calling. And when he's already moved on and starting to pick up his life again...it's again about HER lost and go ahead pull a drastic turn-around to mess with him. It's the combination of all that that's making her actions seem selfish.

When people say it's not too late, it sounded like people are treating this like a badly written story with Kimmy as a heroine, where other characters are just cheap devices and the plot, the world, the timing is all just cater for the heroine's convenience so she can get her happy ending (as tv/movies loves to tell us).

Sometimes, letting go, is a blessing in disguise. I'm sure you and your stobxh can find each other again down the line after all the heartache, resentment and hurt is lessen with time. Like he said, maybe after the divorce, few years down the line both you and him are single again (his relationship with this woman probably won't work out), there might be a chance again to re-connect and maybe true connection will do for you two again.


----------



## 2ntnuf

bbsbwk said:


> Like he said, maybe after the divorce, few years down the line both you and him are single again (his relationship with this woman probably won't work out), there might be a chance again to re-connect and maybe true connection will do for you two again.


I hope you didn't mean me. That's not at all what I was saying.


----------



## GetTough

karole said:


> He doesn't " want to go back to the way things were because that wouldn't be fair," but he thinks what he is doing now is fair?


Kimmy's situation is an almost exact replay of mine. Unless she reaches acceptance, the situation could get very ugly. If she can let him go, then she still has a sliver of chance he will think twice and once again want what he can't have. He is trying to let her down gently, but he's been previously having a hard time turning down the sex. He has made his decision though. She needs to make the same decision to win him back. It's her only chance. Begging him continually is very unattractive. She really, really needs to stop doing anything that is an attempt to get him to change his mind.


----------



## GetTough

CEL said:


> ... that means that you will need distance. Basically you guys only talk about financials and your son. This is not a threat but it is how it must be for you to be able to move on.


Eminently sensible. Paperwork/legalities are irrelevant. The sooner she enacts this the better.


----------



## GetTough

karole said:


> That is something your husband needs to explain to him Kimmy.


The kid should be involved in the adults mess as little as possible. At his age questions should be answered honestly but without going into too much detail or explanation. He should know that it is not his fault, that the parents just need to be apart in order to be happy.


----------



## kimmycat

2ntnuf said:


> I hope you didn't mean me. That's not at all what I was saying.


No, I think he means my H


----------



## Acabado

bbsbwk said:


> All of Kimmy's actions (and inaction) for this whole ordeal *seems to show that she's a very selfish person, with a lack of empathy. *


It's your personal atribution of her personality which is completely debatable. I don't agree with this.


> when the D is filed and a year later, now it's suddenly all about her pain and her lost.


False, she already posted the dates, it's 1 month after the filing, before he even moved out and knew about OW. Also, she''s taking into acount the pain she caused him, IMHO, despite your protestation of selfishness and lak of empathy.
The rest of you post, along with the first one is all about atributing her selfish motivations and manipulive nature wich I don't share, as in...


> Sex, first and foremost to her, is more of a manipulation scheme to win him back, rather than a genuine desire and any sort of true connection she felt for him.


.. said the mind reader.

We have indeed diferent glasses when reading this thread.


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> The kid should be involved in the adults mess as little as possible. At his age questions should be answered honestly but without going into too much detail or explanation. He should know that it is not his fault, that the parents just need to be apart in order to be happy.


This is how we have handled it...BUT, NOW, if H is to fulfill his part of the D agreement...he will have our son every other weekend and 1 evening during the week...since he lives with this OW, my son will have to have some sort of explanation as to who she is...I guess, like, Daddy has a new GF and she lives with Daddy...so she will be there when our son is there....


----------



## firefly789

Have you directly let him know that once the D is final there will be no more staying overnight, sex, and "dating" for the two of you? It just seems like he still thinks that after the D is final he will still have the same relationship with you. The final date is just around the corner. It's time to talk about how it will be presented to son by H, logistics of shared custody, etc. All things to make this real to your H and make him realize that you will be moving on and not trying to win him back/date him anymore. Does he realize if D is final you that you will accept it, let him go, and will begin dating other men?


----------



## Acabado

bbsbwk, did you just join with the whole porpouse of bashing Kimmy?


----------



## firefly789

Bbsbwk, no matter what KC did, he is still married to her. It's hard to feel sorry for someone who has an OW while still married. I applaud KC's introspection, remorse, and growth. Whether her H comes back to her or not, she has grown as a person and I think she will find success/fulfillment in her future relationship.


----------



## CEL

Kimmy have him tell your son with you present he is the one pushing the divorce. Also I would write down the behavior of after divorce behavior.

1. You are not going to date him.

2. He gets his visitation if he needs more you will listen but no promises.

3. He can contact you through email but if it is about something other than your son or financial you will not respond.

4. You are not open to reconciliation while he is with her and you will be dating other men.

5. Holidays need to be figured out who gets your son for them. You are not going to play house for the holidays.

6. He needs to get his stuff you would like plenty of time to be prepared for that.

7. He loses his key to your place if he had one.

8. Set up a neutral location to change out the child as you do not want to see the OW.

Make sure you get this in place before the 6th as he needs to know how life is going to be.

Time he faced the reality of divorce. My hopes ate still with you. We still got your back.


----------



## kimmycat

Affaircare said:


> Okay before anyone replies with something harsh to bbsbwk, I want you all to consider something. In real life, this may be the EXACT way that Kimmy's husband or the GF/OW might feel.
> 
> Now it may not be all pretty to us, and it may hurt to hear, and we may not like it, but it is honest.
> 
> All too often I hear people say "I could have handled the truth if you had just been honest with me" and then hear something like this--something a little hurtful and distasteful--and they go off and rage and 2x4. Hey it's no wonder people keep the truth to themselves!
> 
> So bbsbwk, let me reply to you. I can see how you'd say that because yep....for four years she didn't get the message. Four years is a LONG, LONG time for a man to be hurt and rejected by his wife over and over again. It feels like your heart is drying out and dying bit by bit, until finally a person says "If I let this last bit dry up and die...*I* will die. I have to go."
> 
> I get that and I think Kimmy does too. I think we (and she) mostly had hope that maybe it wasn't too late. That maybe the scale fell off her eyes soon enough and she had time to demonstrate the difference in her. It's like a light at the end of the tunnel--while you're still IN the tunnel, it's still dark and kind of scary but you see that light down there and there is hope that at some point, you'll get to that "light."
> 
> And basically you're right. Kimmy did create her own hell by choosing to shut down and close out her husband. BUT (and it's a big but), unlike so many people, she had the courage and strength to admit she was wrong....AND STOP DOING IT!! A lot of people will say "Yeah Yeah I was wrong yada yada" and they don't mean it. They keep right on doing it. A lot of people are too prideful to even admit they were wrong!! Not Kimmy. She may have been wrong, but hey, who hasn't done something wrong in their lifetime? Shoot we all have! So she had the courage to admit it to herself and others, AND to turn it around and be different.
> 
> Also, maybe it's just me and I'm a stickler, but in my mind when two people make promises to each other, when they have integrity they honor their promises. Good bad or otherwise, he stood before a judge and family and promised to love her until he died. She hurt him--yep that's true. She did things wrong--no arguing. But he promised, and he broke the promise before he took the legal steps necessary to free him from that promise. In my mind, I just don't think that's cool and it is unfaithful.
> 
> So she hurt him--he hurt her--and they made promises and have a child together. To me, if she's willing to change and he's willing to also admit his part, that's something worth trying to save. So I do hope she will keep trying and that LIKE HER, he will open his eyes and see that he can do it and rebuild with her--the mother of his child and his wife.


That is a very profound post, as usual....I am going to keep trying...I truly hope that he, like me, will open his eyes and see that he can do it...meaning forgive me, let go of the resentment that built up over the last 4 years and gives us a chance...because, I do believe in our vows and will keep trying....

You are so right, I was really hoping that it wasn't too late...


HERE'S more of my story that started this "shutdown" 4 years ago:
(I have learned in IC over the last 4 weeks that I have "shutdown" a lot in my life...trying to get to the bottom of that, too.)

1. H caught by me having his supposed EA (never admitted PA). how did I find out? After returning from a 17 day vacation without him 20 minutes away(H was invited but didn't want to come...)I woke up in the morning and checked his Blackberry. Texting was new back then, so I still don't know who wrote what, but, this is what I found: 2 texts, 1 said "when i think of you, I can smell you" and the other said, "I love you and miss you so much sweetheart."

When he got out of the shower, I told him life was too short for him to be married to me if he didn't love me and I told him what I found. I filed for D that day and he was served the next day...supposedly, she turned into a psycho AND he proceeded to beg me to stop the D after about 2 weeks of living in another bedroom...I gave in right away and called my lawyer and cancelled everything...we went to a couple MC sessions but got nothing out of it AND he insisted on having my trust back after about 3 weeks of me checking up on him all the time...so we rug swept...to this day, he says he was talking to someone only, the texts were "forwards" from other people she was sending him and she got psycho, cuz, she was in love with him, but there was nothing physical. I never really believed him...now, at this point, our sex life became crazy good...I don't know why, but CRAZY GOOD, like now...


2. I got pregnant about 3 weeks later and had a very bad miscarriage at 14 weeks...was very traumatic for both of us. But, we both decided that since God decided to give us the best son in the world, we were only meant to have one and that is how we dealt with that...I truly believe that...but, I wasn't feeling very sexual anymore AT ALL and H was very understanding...

3. Then, around the time of my miscarriage, when I was still checking his texts behind his back, I found some really weird sexual jokes between H and a MALE friend that freaked me out...he told me that he has a sick sense of humor, which he does, and they were nothing....I was freaked out and since, I didn't trust him anyway...really started to wonder about him...was definitely not feeling sexually attracted to him and H was very understanding...


4. Then, about 5 months later, when our son and I went out of town for Memorial Day Weekend (H was invited but did not want to come.), H got drunk and called me a hundred times and said a lot of ugly things over the phone...so ugly that I had to tell him that if he got that way again, when our son and I were home, I would call the police to document his behavior...he quit drinking immediately and he never had any of those outbursts again...HOWEVER, he resented me because he couldn't drink...I never told him he couldn't...only I would call police if he got out of control.



So, then, the time went on and about every 6 months, he would try to have a TALK with me about how he was too young to be living a sex-free life...nothing about love or our life, just sex...




So, over the last 4 years, I threw myself into being a mom and running the house with lots of help from H. AND, a lot of focus on my very busy special education teaching job and for the last year, going out with friends...




When he first asked for a D last March, I thought it was because he wanted to drink again and even asked him and he said that absolutely not...and yes, he is drinking again...he is a grown up and if he wants to drink, he can drink...

I don't know if this all sounds selfish or crazy or hopeless or what but this is what has come out in IC about why I shut down and gave up on our marriage 4 years ago...

Thank you for your support and thoughts...they are so insightful and like you said, I hope the scales didn't fall off my eyes too late...


----------



## kimmycat

2ntnuf said:


> Yes. There was confusion all around, wasn't there? Doesn't it break your heart to wonder what in hell caused all of the confusion that led to this? It seems a shame that two people in love found themselves in this position. What actually led to kimmy not wanting him? What led to her decision to R? So many questions.
> 
> Why would someone tell their spouse, whom they love, that it was over? Why would that spouse give up on their own life? What led to that? I have difficulty believing kimmy just didn't care. I am inclined to believe there was something that led kimmy to believe she was not good enough for him. I am inclined to believe she somehow dug deep and found that she really did care about herself enough to try to be happy again. I am inclined to believe he was most happy when he was with her or he would not consider sleeping with her. He knows what that does to his mental state. Doesn't he?
> 
> If not, well.......Anyway, it is a very sad state of affairs which seems it could go either way. It seems reasonable for him to be afraid things will go back to the way they were. I don't know. I'm rambling on now.
> 
> I can see it from her side better than his. It must be devastating for him to not understand her position. Somehow their communication must have been lacking. Don't you think?
> 
> Anyway, good luck to you, kimmy. It is not over for you, even if your marriage is over. You have learned a lot. If you can't R, maybe you can make a better life for yourself, one that will make you less frustrated and happier.
> 
> Sorry for the rant, kimmy. I'll get out of here now.


See page 30 of this thread...I detail what I have learned in IC that started my shutdown...thank you for the post...yes, I've learned a lot...hopefully, not too late...


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Kimmy have him tell your son with you present he is the one pushing the divorce. Also I would write down the behavior of after divorce behavior.
> 
> 1. You are not going to date him.
> 
> 2. He gets his visitation if he needs more you will listen but no promises.
> 
> 3. He can contact you through email but if it is about something other than your son or financial you will not respond.
> 
> 4. You are not open to reconciliation while he is with her and you will be dating other men.
> 
> 5. Holidays need to be figured out who gets your son for them. You are not going to play house for the holidays.
> 
> 6. He needs to get his stuff you would like plenty of time to be prepared for that.
> 
> 7. He loses his key to your place if he had one.
> 
> 8. Set up a neutral location to change out the child as you do not want to see the OW.
> 
> Make sure you get this in place before the 6th as he needs to know how life is going to be.
> 
> Time he faced the reality of divorce. My hopes ate still with you. We still got your back.


Thank you, CEL, I agree with every single one of those points...

Still scared to present it before the D date cuz what if he gets mad and decides to let it happen when he might have decided to postpone??? Story of my life...walking on eggshells cuz I have no power...and am full of fear...


----------



## kimmycat

Acabado said:


> bbsbwk, did you just join with the whole porpouse of bashing Kimmy?


It does seem that way...these are his ONLY posts...


----------



## kimmycat

firefly789 said:


> Bbsbwk, no matter what KC did, he is still married to her. It's hard to feel sorry for someone who has an OW while still married. I applaud KC's introspection, remorse, and growth. Whether her H comes back to her or not, she has grown as a person and I think she will find success/fulfillment in her future relationship.


Thank you...


----------



## PBear

kimmycat said:


> Thank you, CEL, I agree with every single one of those points...
> 
> Still scared to present it before the D date cuz what if he gets mad and decides to let it happen when he might have decided to postpone??? Story of my life...walking on eggshells cuz I have no power...and am full of fear...


Honestly, this is about what I felt you should have presented to home shortly after he moved out. But you had a plan to try, and there's nothing saying this would have worked any better anyway. So no loss, really.

Good luck, KC. I have a feeling that when the light of reality shines on their relationship, it won't last long. Then it will be a question of what comes next. 

C


----------



## luv2luv

kimmycat said:


> Not good...H only came over to babysit Saturday when I went to IC appointment and had to be somewhere about an hour after..
> 
> I heard nothing from him on Sunday...
> 
> I did ask him if he has a court date for our Divorce to be final and it is August 6. I asked him if he was going to postpone it and he said he doesn't think so...then, he said that even if it goes through, it doesn't mean we can't still have a chance...then, he said, "I'm not gonna say I'm happy and I'mnot gonna say I'm unhappy, it's just not what I'm used to...don't think I'm am having a great time, don't think a minute doesn't go by that I don't think of my family."...then, he left.
> 
> Very sad


LOL.

I know this isn't funny but your husband made me laugh.

"Kimmy, just because I am divorcing you, living with someone else, doesn't mean I won't still come by and have sex!" Your husband is a funny man. 

I get that you're hurting, but I hope you see what a user your husband is being. He doesn't think you or your changes are good enough to be with, but you are good enough as a booty call.

I hope you realize that you are not being respected o loved and do both for yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kimmycat

luv2luv said:


> LOL.
> 
> I know this isn't funny but your husband made me laugh.
> 
> "Kimmy, just because I am divorcing you, living with someone else, doesn't mean I won't still come by and have sex!" Your husband is a funny man.
> 
> I get that you're hurting, but I hope you see what a user your husband is being. He doesn't think you or your changes are good enough to be with, but you are good enough as a booty call.
> 
> I hope you realize that you are not being respected o loved and do both for yourself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's not that simple, but I do see it...not feeling good about it at all...


----------



## luv2luv

kimmycat said:


> It's not that simple, but I do see it...not feeling good about it at all...


I know that you have decided that you want him back no matter what the cost to you as a person, so I hope for your sake it works. Otherwise all you have done is given up your self respect for someone who couldn't even be bothered to give up f*cking other women.

I know you love him and think he loves you, but his love doesn't extend to not sleeping with her; just enough to cheat on her. 

I really am rooting for you Kimmy, not him, not the gf but you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kimmycat

luv2luv said:


> I know that you have decided that you want him back no matter what the cost to you as a person, so I hope for your sake it works. Otherwise all you have done is given up your self respect for someone who couldn't even be bothered to give up f*cking other women.
> 
> I know you love him and think he loves you, but his love doesn't extend to not sleeping with her; just enough to cheat on her.
> 
> I really am rooting for you Kimmy, not him, not the gf but you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I love him and I know he loves me. I think his pride won't let him come back...he has always told me that he has too much pride...

And of course, the fear that all will go back to the same after he is home...I just do NOT know how to change that...or reassure him or obviously, change the past....

I am 50% to blame...thank you for rooting for me and I get that you are saying...


----------



## turnera

luv2luv said:


> his love doesn't extend to not sleeping with her; just enough to cheat on her.


QFT.

Not that I blame him, being a man...just don't have to like it.

What I worry about is, if he DOES choose you over her, what will your relationship be moving forward? Will you forever be forced to kiss his ass to keep him from cheating again? Now that you've proved you'll do whatever it takes, accept any behavior, to keep him from leaving?


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> And of course, the fear that all will go back to the same after he is home...I just do NOT know how to change that...or reassure him or obviously, change the past....


If anything, I suggest looking into a great IC and a great MC, and have those appointments - at least the MC ones - ready and waiting, for him to see. Start the IC. Let him see you going to IC, to show him you are looking into YOUR actions. Let him see you lined up a MC, so he can have hope that things will change.


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> If anything, I suggest looking into a great IC and a great MC, and have those appointments - at least the MC ones - ready and waiting, for him to see. Start the IC. Let him see you going to IC, to show him you are looking into YOUR actions. Let him see you lined up a MC, so he can have hope that things will change.


I have been going to IC..every Saturday...I think I have gone 3 times and have my next appointment next Saturday...

She is also a MC...


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> QFT.
> 
> Not that I blame him, being a man...just don't have to like it.
> 
> What I worry about is, if he DOES choose you over her, what will your relationship be moving forward? Will you forever be forced to kiss his ass to keep him from cheating again? Now that you've proved you'll do whatever it takes, accept any behavior, to keep him from leaving?


I don't know what QFT means..

I think as long as we are fulfilling each others' needs, we will be happy...after a lot of rebuilding...I don't see it as a** kissing...


----------



## CEL

I would present it before the date so that he has no illusions of what is going to happen. You have done a great Plan A and he now knows what it is like to have you with him. The wonderful things you guys can do the family you can have. Now I would hit him with the consequences if he goes through with the divorce you have as good a foundation to make this gambit as you will ever have. So I would get it all together and ask if you need more to the list or if you have questions on what kind of boundaries you will have. 

This is two fold one it is necessary for you to move on simple as that. Two it gives him a taste of what it will be like to not have you in his corner. So like I said I would wait until this weekend and then hit him with it. If you don't see him all the better send it in an email. He needs to understand he can't go through with divorce or even postpone it and still keep you.


----------



## Openminded

kimmycat said:


> I don't know what QFT means..
> 
> I think as long as we are fulfilling each others' needs, we will be happy...after a lot of rebuilding...I don't see it as a** kissing...


I believe that stands for "Quoted For Truth."

Why do you feel he had the EA that occurred before your miscarriage?


----------



## GetTough

CEL said:


> Kimmy have him tell your son with you present he is the one pushing the divorce. Also I would write down the behavior of after divorce behavior.
> 
> 1. You are not going to date him.
> 
> 2. He gets his visitation if he needs more you will listen but no promises.
> 
> 3. He can contact you through email but if it is about something other than your son or financial you will not respond.
> 
> 4. You are not open to reconciliation while he is with her and you will be dating other men.
> 
> 5. Holidays need to be figured out who gets your son for them. You are not going to play house for the holidays.
> 
> 6. He needs to get his stuff you would like plenty of time to be prepared for that.
> 
> 7. He loses his key to your place if he had one.
> 
> 8. Set up a neutral location to change out the child as you do not want to see the OW.
> 
> Make sure you get this in place before the 6th as he needs to know how life is going to be.
> 
> Time he faced the reality of divorce. My hopes ate still with you. We still got your back.


Most of this I agree with. Although I disagree on the need to disclose plans to him in advance. Just do it. She owes him no explanation. The only reason she's still talking to him and explaining (other than for essentials) is obviously to get him back. And it will be obvious to him. The first part though... telling the son he's pushing for divorce, I strongly disagree with. It is much better for the child not to feel that their parents are blaming each other. What if he responds with the son present, "well what did you expect, I had no connection for years." I mean it's just asking for that, some kind of hurtful exchange in front of the child.


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> This is how we have handled it...BUT, NOW, if H is to fulfill his part of the D agreement...he will have our son every other weekend and 1 evening during the week...since he lives with this OW, my son will have to have some sort of explanation as to who she is...I guess, like, Daddy has a new GF and she lives with Daddy...so she will be there when our son is there....


It's tough I agree, but if you stick with honesty and brevity, without blaming anyone, H or OW especially, then you won't go far wrong.


----------



## kimmycat

Openminded said:


> I believe that stands for "Quoted For Truth."
> 
> Why do you feel he had the EA that occurred before your miscarriage?


That's a million dollar question that I have been wondering and wondering...I have an old letter from him saying I wasn't paying attention to him or complimenting him...we were having sex regularly...I really don't know more...just don't know...


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> Most of this I agree with. Although I disagree on the need to disclose plans to him in advance. Just do it. She owes him no explanation. The only reason she's still talking to him and explaining (other than for essentials) is obviously to get him back. And it will be obvious to him. The first part though... telling the son he's pushing for divorce, I strongly disagree with. It is much better for the child not to feel that their parents are blaming each other. What if he responds with the son present, "well what did you expect, I had no connection for years." I mean it's just asking for that, some kind of hurtful exchange in front of the child.


He knows I want him back.

You're right, I don't want my son to blame H, but, my son does know that I miss Daddy, too...cuz when he says he misses Daddy, I say, I do, too...it's honest...


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> It's tough I agree, but if you stick with honesty and brevity, without blaming anyone, H or OW especially, then you won't go far wrong.


Agree


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> Yes, I love him and I know he loves me.
> 
> _You are wrong. You are wearing rose-tinted glasses. He does not love you any more. Just look at his actions! Those are not the actions of a man who loves a woman!_
> 
> I think his pride won't let him come back...he has always told me that he has too much pride...
> 
> _No. He has made his decision. It's nothing to do with his pride. He has decided that he wants a relationship with someone else instead of you. It is really that simple. If he could keep you as a booty call, he probably would, but that doesn't mean he wants YOU. Again you are wearing rose-tinted glasses._
> 
> And of course, the fear that all will go back to the same after he is home...I just do NOT know how to change that...or reassure him or obviously, change the past....
> 
> _Yes he has that fear. But that is not a major factor in his thinking anymore. That's just him trying to assuage his guilt and present it to you in a way that is less hurtful than him simply saying "I don't love you anymore"._


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> I would present it before the date so that he has no illusions of what is going to happen. You have done a great Plan A and he now knows what it is like to have you with him. The wonderful things you guys can do the family you can have. Now I would hit him with the consequences if he goes through with the divorce you have as good a foundation to make this gambit as you will ever have. So I would get it all together and ask if you need more to the list or if you have questions on what kind of boundaries you will have.
> 
> This is two fold one it is necessary for you to move on simple as that. Two it gives him a taste of what it will be like to not have you in his corner. So like I said I would wait until this weekend and then hit him with it. If you don't see him all the better send it in an email. He needs to understand he can't go through with divorce or even postpone it and still keep you.


Yep, the time has come for the consequences and I will write it all down and have it ready and email it this weekend if I don't see him...I hope he will babysit, at least, while I am at IC and stick around a little and then, I will tell him then...

I did see him today at swimming lessons and we were kind and chatty...he said he was gonna come over tomorrow...to get down a wasp nest...his idea...since I told him I got stung last night...so, I will just be nice, as usual, when he comes over...this is the last week of swimming lessons, too...


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough, OUCH, your screen name certainly fits you...


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> He knows I want him back.
> 
> Well this is one of the things you really need to change, if you can. The best way is to not just try to hide it from him, but to really feel like you are OK without him going forward. And the truth is you can be and you will be!
> 
> You're right, I don't want my son to blame H, but, my son does know that I miss Daddy, too...cuz when he says he misses Daddy, I say, I do, too...it's honest...
> 
> I think this is fine. It's okay to empathize and share that you both miss Daddy... assuming you don't get in too much of a funk, and instead let him see that you are focused on positive ACTION for essentially what is survival for you right now and getting through each day. You seem like a good mom. You are concerned about the effect on him, it is apparent that you care deeply about his well being. Kids are pretty resilient. They bounce back amazingly well.


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> GetTough, OUCH, your screen name certainly fits you...


You are desperate to have him back because you are falling (losing him) ...you feel like you are slipping off a cliff... and you see a black ravine beneath you.... and you are afraid. It is a very scary, horrible horrible place to be.... you feel like you have to scramble because your life depends on it... but I'm telling you that you need to have faith that if you let go... although you will land and you will still hurt... you will stand tall again, find a new hope, and a new strength.

I'm telling you that the sooner you recognize that what you are scrambling for is not what you imagine it to be, that really the love you imagine with him is an illusion now, it no longer exists, that a bright future lies for you well-grounded (maybe he will even join you when you are well-grounded), then the sooner you pain will ease. That is what I am hoping to show you.


----------



## kimmycat

Get Tough,

Yes, I need to feel like I'm okay without him...I would, if I could...yes, I am in survival mode and I'm just taking it day by day...luckily I'm a teacher and off for the summer...

I do care deeply about my son and just want to make sure that he knows that it is not his fault. Everybody says kids are resilient, but, I'm 47 years old and my parents divorced when I was 5 and my IC says that I have still am reeling from my parents' divorce and that is why I have vulnerability issues, abandonment issues, trust issues...I never felt responsible but I wasn't so resilient....


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> You are desperate to have him back because you are falling (losing him) ...you feel like you are slipping off a cliff... and you see a black ravine beneath you.... and you are afraid. It is a very scary, horrible horrible place to be.... you feel like you have to scramble because your life depends on it... but I'm telling you that you need to have faith that if you let go... although you will land and you will still hurt... you will stand tall again, find a new hope, and a new strength.
> 
> I'm telling you that the sooner you recognize that what you are scrambling for is not what you imagine it to be, that really the love you imagine with him is an illusion now, it no longer exists, that a bright future lies for you well-grounded (maybe he will even join you when you are well-grounded), then the sooner you pain will ease. That is what I am hoping to show you.


Tears...


----------



## GetTough

My ex tried to let me down gently too. It took about 8 weeks from first telling me until she moved out. During that time and for some time thereafter, I clung desperately to the hope that she still loved me, exaggerating any tiny sign that she still might. Hanging on her every word, looking for anything, anything... all the while I did this I was putting my life and my well-being on hold. It hurt like hell.

But the signs were loud and clear when I look back in hindsight. She no longer loved me from the day she said she wanted a separation. The love we had, had already long gone. And I see that clearly now.

Now I can look back and I can also see clearly what I should have done to stand the best chance not just of getting another shot at the marriage but also of *recovering faster*. I should have just accepted that the love was no longer there. Because it wasn't. I was just holding onto a fantasy. A total fantasy. A fantasy of what I hoped I could make true again.

My fantasy was completely detached from the reality of the situation. As was I. And it was truly horrible to be in that place. I was not seeing the world as it really was. And my whole identity was tied up in this illusion. Who was I anymore anyway? I thought marriage was supposed to be forever. That foundation of truth got pulled from underneath me hard. Is anything in this world real, I even asked myself. What else is a lie? I was hurt, angry. It felt unfair and it felt like the right thing to do was to "fight to save my marriage". But I was wrong, or at least clinging to a dead love isn't the way to fight to save a marriage.

Fighting to save a marriage is to let what's dead die, so that NEW LIFE CAN BEGIN AGAIN. That means letting go. The love you had is dead. If you let that go, you have a chance at a new love. Maybe with him!! Maybe with someone else!! But you have no chance at a new love until you let the dead one die. That means letting go. Just do a search on the web for getting an ex back. Professionals who study this day-in-day-out. They almost ALL say the number one thing to do is to (1) agree with the split. Accept it. Anything that clings is the biggest mistake, the most common mistake, because it is a natural human reaction to hold onto that which completes us. Its the most basic instinct, from birth, the fear of abandonment. 

The advice others give to focus on yourself, and advice to focus on self-care is -imperative-. You need to heal, rebuild your identity and self-image, make new neural connections that repair your emotional well being. You cannot heal psychologically while you cling to him. It is impossible. It is keeping your wound open.

Please get lots of counseling. Shift your thoughts away from saving your marriage. That is your single biggest problem right now. That means acceptance, space and time. Shift your thoughts onto reassuring yourself you will be okay alone for a while. This is what you need. Make a commitment to being alone and caring for your mind. You can get through this, no matter what happens (because you will)... even CEL is coming round to telling you to focus on yourself.

I held onto my ex for 3 years. I'm being tough with you now because I'm trying to save you from going through what I went through for so long. It hurt me for an unnecessarily long time. I now totally believe, no... more than that, I have a CONVICTION... that people should let a relationship go COMPLETELY, the MOMENT they have firm evidence that the other person is not fully committed to it. Whether it is marriage or not makes no difference. If you know beyond reasonable doubt that the other person is not invested in the relationship, then you should let go COMPLETELY, and IMMEDIATELY, and remain that way so long as that lack of proper commitment remains the case. That is letting the dead love die, so that renewal and a new brighter love can emerge, Phoenix-like, from the ashes. That is protecting yourself. And having an ability to protect yourself is VERY attractive.

I would ebb and flow, but whenever I found the strength to let go a little more, it would feel right. It was hard, but it felt right. It didn't agree with my thoughts and what I believed I wanted, no way, but it felt right in the gut. And it felt right because it WAS right. The body will always tell you what is right better than your thoughts, which can rationalize anything.


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> My ex tried to let me down gently too. It took about 8 weeks from first telling me until she moved out. During that time and for some time thereafter, I clung desperately to the hope that she still loved me, exaggerating any tiny sign that she still might. Hanging on her every word, looking for anything, anything... all the while I did this I was putting my life and my well-being on hold. It hurt like hell.
> 
> But the signs were loud and clear when I look back in hindsight. She no longer loved me from the day she said she wanted a separation. The love we had, had already long gone. And I see that clearly now.
> 
> Now I can look back and I can also see clearly what I should have done to stand the best chance not just of getting another shot at the marriage but also of *recovering faster*. I should have just accepted that the love was no longer there. Because it wasn't. I was just holding onto a fantasy. A total fantasy. A fantasy of what I hoped I could make true again.
> 
> My fantasy was completely detached from the reality of the situation. As was I. And it was truly horrible to be in that place. I was not seeing the world as it really was. And my whole identity was tied up in this illusion. Who was I anymore anyway? I thought marriage was supposed to be forever. That foundation of truth got pulled from underneath me hard. Is anything in this world real, I even asked myself. What else is a lie? I was hurt, angry. It felt unfair and it felt like the right thing to do was to "fight to save my marriage". But I was wrong, or at least clinging to a dead love isn't the way to fight to save a marriage.
> 
> Fighting to save a marriage is to let what's dead die, so that NEW LIFE CAN BEGIN AGAIN. That means letting go. The love you had is dead. If you let that go, you have a chance at a new love. Maybe with him!! Maybe with someone else!! But you have no chance at a new love until you let the dead one die. That means letting go. Just do a search on the web for getting an ex back. Professionals who study this day-in-day-out. They almost ALL say the number one thing to do is to (1) agree with the split. Accept it. Anything that clings is the biggest mistake, the most common mistake, because it is a natural human reaction to hold onto that which completes us. Its the most basic instinct, from birth, the fear of abandonment.
> 
> The advice others give to focus on yourself, and advice to focus on self-care is -imperative-. You need to heal, rebuild your identity and self-image, make new neural connections that repair your emotional well being. You cannot heal psychologically while you cling to him. It is impossible. It is keeping your wound open.
> 
> Please get lots of counseling. Shift your thoughts away from saving your marriage. That is your single biggest problem right now. That means acceptance, space and time. Shift your thoughts onto reassuring yourself you will be okay alone for a while. This is what you need. Make a commitment to being alone and caring for your mind. You can get through this, no matter what happens (because you will)... even CEL is coming round to telling you to focus on yourself.
> 
> I held onto my ex for 3 years. I'm being tough with you now because I'm trying to save you from going through what I went through for so long. It hurt me for an unnecessarily long time. I now totally believe, no... more than that, I have a CONVICTION... that people should let a relationship go COMPLETELY, the MOMENT they have firm evidence that the other person is not fully committed to it. Whether it is marriage or not makes no difference. If you know beyond reasonable doubt that the other person is not invested in the relationship, then you should let go COMPLETELY, and IMMEDIATELY, and remain that way so long as that lack of proper commitment remains the case. That is letting the dead love die, so that renewal and a new brighter love can emerge, Phoenix-like, from the ashes. That is protecting yourself. And having an ability to protect yourself is VERY attractive.
> 
> I would ebb and flow, but whenever I found the strength to let go a little more, it would feel right. It was hard, but it felt right. It didn't agree with my thoughts and what I believed I wanted, no way, but it felt right in the gut. And it felt right because it WAS right. The body will always tell you what is right better than your thoughts, which can rationalize anything.


Thank you for your heartfelt post. I am clinging to the idea of saving my marriage and it is my every thought...I think you are right, I need to let go and let our old marriage die...it is the only chance of R and only chance for me to heal from my pain.

I am going to have to move on but, it just doesn't sound right today, but I will have to take it one day at a time...the anxiety of not having him as my family kills me and just does not feel right...but, I have no control of the fact that he has moved on...I feel so weak and foolish...and totally heartbroken...

Even my dream as I woke up this morning was driving in a car with him and I was in the backseat and I knew he was with her...even in my DREAM, he wasn't even mine...


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> That's a million dollar question that I have been wondering and wondering...I have an old letter from him saying I wasn't paying attention to him or complimenting him...we were having sex regularly...I really don't know more...just don't know...


 In HNHN, it says that, aside from sex, admiration is usually a man's #1 need. Obviously it is, for him.


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> I am going to have to move on but, it just doesn't sound right today


Because you still have a piece of paper between you. What will you be saying on August 7?


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> Because you still have a piece of paper between you. What will you be saying on August 7?


On August 7...I don't even know what I'm going to say today or tomorrow...but, I will then, have to move on, I am lost but, I'll still go to IC and take it day by day...

I believe it is a covenant...more than a piece of paper.


----------



## turnera

He doesn't.


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> He doesn't.


You're right.


----------



## kimmycat

Here is the letter I am writing. I'll put it here so, hopefully, I can get supportive feedback:



My Dear ******,

I apologize to you, again, for my part in creating an environment that helped make your relationship with **** possible. I foolishly held onto to resentments and unrealistic judgements without understanding my responsibility to meet your most important emotional needs. I was not there for you when you needed me the most, and we are now both suffering for my mistakes.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I’ve made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But I cannot do that until you end your relationship with **** for once and for all.

Until then, I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. We can exchange ****** through my mom or your mom. You said you live near my mom so maybe, that would be easier. Or, I can send him outside, when you arrive to pick him up.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with **** and now, you choosing to go through with the divorce on August 6. I simply cannot see you any longer, knowing that you are living with her. I still love you but I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from ***** and are willing to never contact her again, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. I just cannot be with you or help you as long as you are living with or seeing *****.

All my love,
****

P.S. ****, I love **** with all my heart and am willing to do whatever it takes to make him happy. I will wait for him to give me that chance.


Steps we need to take:


1. I need you to think about how we tell ***** about your living situation. That way he can start staying with you every other weekend before school starts. For the first week of school, you can pick him up from here since I don't have to be at work until 8:00. I can send him outside.

2. Do you want to start your every other weekends on August 9? You can pick him up from here at 6:00 Fridays and drop him off 6:00 Sundays. I think that is what the paper said. Or, I can drop him off at my mom's or your mom's. Or, I can send him outside when you arrive here.

3. Please, only contact me through emails about **** or financials. I will do the same.

4. I need you to get your things, except for china cabinet, so I can move on. I will let you know through email when I have packed everything or bought a new china cabinet.

5. I need your key and garage door opener.

6. Let's figure out which night of the week you will take him out from 6-8, so, he can look forward to it.

7. We need to figure out the holidays unless it is done for us in the decree we already signed. If so, we will follow that.


********************

I plan on giving this to him this weekend.

I copied this from the Affaircare letter and CEL's suggestion list. It is a first draft. Suggestions?


----------



## PBear

Personally, I think you've got too much in there about rebuilding and "steps forward". The part about your new boundaries is good, though. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## kimmycat

PBear said:


> Personally, I think you've got too much in there about rebuilding and "steps forward". The part about your new boundaries is good, though.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for for feedback. 

I cut the part about rebuilding our marriage someday...that paragraph? I edited my original post to leave it out.


----------



## karole

How is the letter coming Kimmy?


----------



## Acabado

He's perfectly aware about what he'd need to do if he wanted to give the marriage a last shot.

This is an standard Plan B type of letter.
I'd write something shorter and more personal, really from the heart: with a broken heart, unable to compromise your self respect anymore, accepting his choices, accepting your responsability on the dismissal of the marriage and the end of it as a consequence, wishing him happiness and asking him to respect your boundaires from now on...


----------



## kimmycat

karole said:


> How is the letter coming Kimmy?


I posted an update below.


----------



## kimmycat

Updated letter:



My Dear *****,

With a broken heart and inability to compromise my self respect anymore, it is time that I accept your choice, accept my responsibility for these circumstances and accept the consequences of the end of our marriage. I was not there for you when you needed me, and we are now both suffering for my mistakes. I wish you the happiness that you seek.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I’ve made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But, I cannot do that until you end your relationship with **** once and for all.

I need to avoid seeing you or talking to you at all to help me move on. We can exchange ****** through my mom or your mom. You said you live near my mom so maybe, that would be easier. Or, I can send him outside, when you arrive to pick him up.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with ***** and you choosing to go through with the divorce on August 6. I simply cannot see you any longer, knowing that you are living with her. I still love you but, I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from ***** and are willing to never contact her again, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

I loved you when we married and I continue to love you right up to this day. 

All my love,
****

P.S. *****, I love ****** with all my heart and am willing to do whatever it takes to make him happy. I will wait for him to give me that chance.


Steps I think we need to take:

1. I need you to think about how we tell **** about your living situation. That way he can start staying with you every other weekend before school starts. For the first week of school, you can pick him up from here since I don't have to be at work until 8:00. I can send him outside.

2. Do you want to start your every other weekends on August 9? You can pick him up from here at 6:00 Fridays and drop him off 6:00 Sundays. I think that is what the paper said. Or, I can drop him off at my mom's or your mom's. Or, I can send him outside when you arrive here.

3. Please, only contact me through emails about **** or financials. I will do the same.

4. I need you to get the rest of your things, except for the china cabinet, so I can move on. You can let me know through email when you want to come, so I won't be here. I will let you know through email when I have packed everything in the china cabinet or bought a new china cabinet.

5. After you get your things, I need your key and garage door opener.

6. Let's figure out which night of the week you will take ***** out from 6-8, so, he can look forward to it every week.

7. We need to figure out the holidays unless it is done for us in the decree we already signed. If so, we will follow that.


----------



## kimmycat

Acabado said:


> He's perfectly aware about what he'd need to do if he wanted to give the marriage a last shot.
> 
> This is an standard Plan B type of letter.
> I'd write something shorter and more personal, really from the heart: with a broken heart, unable to compromise your self respect anymore, accepting his choices, accepting your responsability on the dismissal of the marriage and the end of it as a consequence, wishing him happiness and asking him to respect your boundaires from now on...


I posted an update below...?


----------



## vi_bride04

kimmycat said:


> Updated letter:
> 
> 
> 
> WH,
> 
> With a broken heart and inability to compromise my self respect anymore, it is time that I accept your choice, accept my responsibility for these circumstances and accept the consequences of the end of our marriage. I was not there for you when you needed me, and we are now both suffering for my mistakes. I wish you the happiness that you seek.
> 
> I am willing to avoid the mistakes I’ve made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But, I cannot do that until you end your relationship with Tina once and for all.
> 
> I need to avoid seeing you or talking to you at all to help me move on. We can exchange DS through my mom or your mom. You said you live near my mom so maybe, that would be easier. Or, I can send him outside, when you arrive to pick him up.
> 
> I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with posOW and you choosing to go through with the divorce on August 6. I simply cannot see you any longer, knowing that you are living with her. I still love you but, I cannot see you under these conditions.
> 
> As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from posOW and are willing to never contact her again, I will be willing to discuss our future together.
> 
> Sincerely,
> BS
> 
> P.S. We will need to discuss dividing marital assets, visitation/custody, your returning the key and garage door opener and other logistics around this divorce


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> P.S. Tina, I love Norberto with all my heart and am willing to do whatever it takes to make him happy. I will wait for him to give me that chance.


Totally unneccessary and actually harmful.


----------



## CEL

Go with the update one by v. I like it you want to project strength and determination. Letting him know you will wait no matter what does not do that. And you don't lose anything by getting rid of it. 

I know this is hard and feels wrong for you but this is the time for it. And thus is going to help you heal from this. You are still a great mom. A wonderful women. And a good person. And we are still here for you.


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## kimmycat

******,

With a broken heart and inability to compromise my self respect anymore, it is time that I accept your choice, accept my responsibility for these circumstances and accept the consequences of the end of our marriage. I was not there for you when you needed me, and we are now both suffering for my mistakes. I wish you the happiness that you seek.

I am willing to avoid the mistakes I’ve made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But, I cannot do that until you end your relationship with **** once and for all.

I need to avoid seeing you or talking to you at all to help me move on. We can exchange ***** through my mom or your mom. You said you live near my mom so maybe, that would be easier. Or, I can send him outside, when you arrive to pick him up.

I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with ***** and you choosing to go through with the divorce on August 6. I simply cannot see you any longer, knowing that you are living with her. I still love you but, I cannot see you under these conditions.

As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from **** and are willing to never contact her again, I will be willing to discuss our future together.

Sincerely,
****

P.S. We will need to discuss picking up the rest of your things, visitation/custody, your returning the key and garage door opener and other logistics around this divorce.


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## kimmycat

How do I delete names on those response quotes...didn't mean to leave names in and edited mine but can't edit the response quotes...


----------



## kimmycat

kimmycat said:


> ******,
> 
> With a broken heart and inability to compromise my self respect anymore, it is time that I accept your choice, accept my responsibility for these circumstances and accept the consequences of the end of our marriage. I was not there for you when you needed me, and we are now both suffering for my mistakes. I wish you the happiness that you seek.
> 
> I am willing to avoid the mistakes I’ve made in the past and create a new life for both of us that will meet your needs. But, I cannot do that until you end your relationship with **** once and for all.
> 
> I need to avoid seeing you or talking to you at all to help me move on. We can exchange ***** through my mom or your mom. You said you live near my mom so maybe, that would be easier. Or, I can send him outside, when you arrive to pick him up.
> 
> I ask you to respect my decision to separate from you this way. You must know about the suffering I have endured because of your relationship with ***** and you choosing to go through with the divorce on August 6. I simply cannot see you any longer, knowing that you are living with her. I still love you but, I cannot see you under these conditions.
> 
> As soon as you are willing to permanently separate from **** and are willing to never contact her again, I will be willing to discuss our future together.
> 
> Sincerely,
> ****
> 
> P.S. We will need to discuss picking up the rest of your things, visitation/custody, your returning the key and garage door opener and other logistics around this divorce.


I changed the PS regarding assets because that has already been signed and agreed upon...he just has some personal items still here...


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## vi_bride04

I edited my response and took out the names. Sorry about that!


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## kimmycat

vi_bride04 said:


> I edited my response and took out the names. Sorry about that!


Thank you...it was my fault since I put them in! 

I really appreciate your editing...I am going with yours...I only change the ps about marital assists since that has already been signed...he just has some personal items still here...


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## kimmycat

turnera said:


> Totally unneccessary and actually harmful.



Thank you, I took it out...see my new letter...

Do you mind editing your quote of my letter and removing the names? I didn't mean to out names in my draft of the letter...thanks....


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## karole

When are you planning to give him the letter Kimmy?


----------



## vi_bride04

In dealing with a serial cheater for years, I have learned to keep any and all emotion out of anything. Stick to the facts and a hard line. 

Any wavering on that hard line and they sense weakness and will use your emotions and how you feel and how you are a sensible, rational, empathetic person against you just to manipulate and play games. 

Most cheaters I know IRL seem to have some sort of personality disorder and have very twisted thinking. My ex especially - sometimes I wonder if he is a sociopath who just really really enjoys fvcking with people on purpose. 

My gfs STBXH will engage her with what seems like meaningful and heartfelt conversations about the situation (he is gay). Then the next day use how he knows she feels to throw fits and really get under her skin. She has laid down the hard line about four times already and doesn't engage anymore but he still tries! 

Good luck with your situation. I know you want to save your marriage but stop and take a step back and figure out if who your WH is DEEP DOWN is someone you want to be married to. 

The person you used to know is dead. Can you imagine getting involved in a long term, committed relationship with him as he is currently? He is showing you his true colors. Please remember that.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Go with the update one by v. I like it you want to project strength and determination. Letting him know you will wait no matter what does not do that. And you don't lose anything by getting rid of it.
> 
> I know this is hard and feels wrong for you but this is the time for it. And thus is going to help you heal from this. You are still a great mom. A wonderful women. And a good person. And we are still here for you.


Thank you, CEL...I am eternally grateful for your guidance and encouragement...I know that without your help, he would not have any GOOD memories of me from the recent past like he does now. Because if you, he may actually consider returning someday...without those good times, I would not stand a chance due to my part in all of this...

The irony is, like Affaircare pointed out, is that first, I was the one that couldn't let go and let him in and now, it is him that can't...

I know I have to let go and heal and move on with an open heart for myself, my son and any possibility of a new life with someone else. I have so much fear and have been thinking...I haven't been single for 12 years and even then, I was only single 2 years after a 9 1/2 year live-in relationship...it is all scarey...


----------



## vi_bride04

kimmycat said:


> I know I have to let go and heal and move on with an open heart for myself, my son and any possibility of a new life with someone else. I have so much fear and have been thinking...I haven't been single for 12 years and even then, I was only single 2 years after a 9 1/2 year live-in relationship..*.it is all scarey.*..


It is scary BUT how exciting is it to get to know yourself again? You get to date YOU!! And you are wonderful


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## kimmycat

karole said:


> When are you planning to give him the letter Kimmy?


I think Saturday or Sunday.


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## kimmycat

vi_bride04 said:


> It is scary BUT how exciting is it to get to know yourself again? You get to date YOU!! And you are wonderful


Can't see it that way...maybe, some time soon...


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## turnera

kimmy, he doesn't define you. YOU do.


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## kimmycat

vi_bride04 said:


> In dealing with a serial cheater for years, I have learned to keep any and all emotion out of anything. Stick to the facts and a hard line.
> 
> Any wavering on that hard line and they sense weakness and will use your emotions and how you feel and how you are a sensible, rational, empathetic person against you just to manipulate and play games.
> 
> Most cheaters I know IRL seem to have some sort of personality disorder and have very twisted thinking. My ex especially - sometimes I wonder if he is a sociopath who just really really enjoys fvcking with people on purpose.
> 
> My gfs STBXH will engage her with what seems like meaningful and heartfelt conversations about the situation (he is gay). Then the next day use how he knows she feels to throw fits and really get under her skin. She has laid down the hard line about four times already and doesn't engage anymore but he still tries!
> 
> Good luck with your situation. I know you want to save your marriage but stop and take a step back and figure out if who your WH is DEEP DOWN is someone you want to be married to.
> 
> The person you used to know is dead. Can you imagine getting involved in a long term, committed relationship with him as he is currently? He is showing you his true colors. Please remember that.


Thank you...I will give myself time and that is all I can do now...


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## kimmycat

turnera said:


> kimmy, he doesn't define you. YOU do.


Yes, just feel like a failure and I still love him...I will try to find this ME...


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## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Yes, just feel like a failure and I still love him...I will try to find this ME...


Kimmy you are NOT a failure. You fought for your marriage and your family but it takes two people. As for single like well you are a wonderful women. A great mom and a beautiful women I think you will only stay single as long as YOU want. You will be surprised how many offers you get or how good you feel when you see that you are attractive to all kinds of men. And you will have more time to make new friends and make some new memories. You are going to be fine and we are not going to disappear on you. So you have made some new friends as well.

Your a great person and tho this has been a hard experience for you I am grateful for being able to get to know you.


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## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Kimmy you are NOT a failure. You fought for your marriage and your family but it takes two people. As for single like well you are a wonderful women. A great mom and a beautiful women I think you will only stay single as long as YOU want. You will be surprised how many offers you get or how good you feel when you see that you are attractive to all kinds of men. And you will have more time to make new friends and make some new memories. You are going to be fine and we are not going to disappear on you. So you have made some new friends as well.
> 
> Your a great person and tho this has been a hard experience for you I am grateful for being able to get to know you.


Thank you for the kind words, CEL...single life just sounds
horrible, right now...hopefully, that will change...

Dating just has no appeal to me right now...but, neither does being
alone...

Thank you for being a friend...I guess I have to
start counting my blessings and getting to 
know you and others on this forum are definitely
blessings...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karole

I hope things work out the way you want Kimmy; but, you will survive either with or without your husband. You need to think of yourself and your son now. You and he should be your number one priorities. Also, you may want to consider getting some counseling for your son to help him work out his feelings, etc. Will be thinking about you.


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## phillybeffandswiss

kimmycat said:


> Yes, just feel like a failure and I still love him...I will try to find this ME...


I read this entire thread. When you feel better, this may take months even years, read it again.

You kept going, no matter the hurdles, when people were telling you to stop. 
Failures do not persevere, THEY GIVE UP. 

You never gave up on the marriage, you decided it was time to work on yourself.


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## Openminded

kimmycat said:


> That's a million dollar question that I have been wondering and wondering...I have an old letter from him saying I wasn't paying attention to him or complimenting him...we were having sex regularly...I really don't know more...just don't know...


Yes, men do need compliments and admiration and attention and some need that more than others. Not all of them cheat to find it but some do.


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## kimmycat

karole said:


> I hope things work out the way you want Kimmy; but, you will survive either with or without your husband. You need to think of yourself and your son now. You and he should be your number one priorities. Also, you may want to consider getting some counseling for your son to help him work out his feelings, etc. Will be thinking about you.


Yes, thank you...also, just got home from the vet with my 20 year old cat...6 months ago she went into severe kidney failure and now, it is back and she is having trouble breathing...she has fluid around her lungs...so, now, I am losing my faithful feline companion...time to focus on spending time with her, my son and healing...

Yes, have been thinking of counseling for my son, too...my IC counsels children, as well.


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## kimmycat

phillybeffandswiss said:


> I read this entire thread. When you feel better, this may take months even years, read it again.
> 
> You kept going, no matter the hurdles, when people were telling you to stop.
> Failures do not persevere, THEY GIVE UP.
> 
> You never gave up on the marriage, you decided it was time to work on yourself.


Thank you for your insight...I appreciate it...I think I have been posting for about 6 weeks...not sure...yes, it has been a slippery slope and I really thought I was going to make it to the top of the mountain and save our marriage...but, it seems, I did not see the edge of the cliff and I fell...someday...maybe, a year from now, I'll reread so I can see that...thank you, again...


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

kimmycat said:


> Thank you for your insight...I appreciate it...I think I have been posting for about 6 weeks...not sure...yes, it has been a slippery slope and I really thought I was going to make it to the top of the mountain and save our marriage...but, it seems, I did not see the edge of the cliff and I fell...someday...maybe, a year from now, I'll reread so I can see that...thank you, again...


Here is a quote you might need to think about when times get rough.


Patience and Diligence, like faith, remove mountains.
William Penn

Apply this to yourself and who knows what may happen.


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## kimmycat

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Here is a quote you might need to think about when times get rough.
> 
> 
> Patience and Diligence, like faith, remove mountains.
> William Penn
> 
> Apply this to yourself and who knows what may happen.


Thank you...I love this quote...


----------



## Openminded

Kimmy, do you think part of the problem you had during those four years was due to your husband's emotional affair? That would seem logical. Those can be just as devastating to deal with as physical affairs.

I certainly don't feel that all the blame should go on you for this. I think he has a considerable share of it.


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> Yes, thank you...also, just got home from the vet with my 20 year old cat...6 months ago she went into severe kidney failure and now, it is back and she is having trouble breathing...she has fluid around her lungs...so, now, I am losing my faithful feline companion...time to focus on spending time with her, my son and healing....


I'm so sorry. I have an 18 year old cat, and she is so scrawny now, but still full of personality. The best cat I've ever had and I just dread that day...just remind yourself, you gave her an awesome life, better than anyone else could have. She was lucky to have you.


----------



## kimmycat

Openminded said:


> Kimmy, do you think part of the problem you had during those four years was due to your husband's emotional affair? That would seem logical. Those can be just as devastating to deal with as physical affairs.
> 
> I certainly don't feel that all the blame should go on you for this. I think he has a considerable share of it.


Yes...we rugswept...if I knew then, what I know now...too bad


----------



## Openminded

kimmycat said:


> Yes...we rugswept...if I knew then, what I know now...too bad


I know how that feels. I rugswept the first time my ex-husband cheated. I didn't the second time.

However, not every situation turns out the way mine did. I have hope for you. I feel he will wake up. Perhaps not by that August deadline but I feel that he will focus eventually on what he has lost and he's going to want it back. In the meantime, definitely work on you. Be the very best that you can be for you and for your son.


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> I'm so sorry. I have an 18 year old cat, and she is so scrawny now, but still full of personality. The best cat I've ever had and I just dread that day...just remind yourself, you gave her an awesome life, better than anyone else could have. She was lucky to have you.


Thank you...trying to enjoy every minute with her...she has been the best companion and has never betrayed me unlike many humans! Awesome that you have an 18 year old cat...my little girl is hanging in there for now...


----------



## kimmycat

Openminded said:


> I know how that feels. I rugswept the first time my ex-husband cheated. I didn't the second time.
> 
> However, not every situation turns out the way mine did. I have hope for you. I feel he will wake up. Perhaps not by that August deadline but I feel that he will focus eventually on what he has lost and he's going to want it back. In the meantime, definitely work on you. Be the very best that you can be for you and for your son.


Thank you for your hope...


----------



## GetTough

I'm in favor of communicating with him as little as possible right now. Anything in the letter than can be removed, should be. All words that have emotional connotation should definitely be removed. This is a time for absolutely minimal communication in a very matter-of-fact way. e.g. simple email, "I want the house keys back."

And/or any other necessary requirements (which don't necessarily all need to go in the same long letter).

The letter as proposed is insincere because its intent does not match the words. The purpose of the letter is not to end the relationship, the purpose is clearly to have him continue the relationship.

I know this because I wrote letters like that. They don't feel good in the gut to write, because they are not good. They are manipulative. They fall below standards I believe reasonable people should hold themselves to. It is no use shifting to manipulation because begging has proven to be ineffective. It's just clutching at straws to win him back and that should not be your objective. Your objective should be to face your fear, and be strong alone for a while.

What would feel good to write, what is decisive, strong, and right, is "I want the house keys back".


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> I'm in favor of communicating with him as little as possible right now. Anything in the letter than can be removed, should be. All words that have emotional connotation should definitely be removed. This is a time for absolutely minimal communication in a very matter-of-fact way. e.g. simple email, "I want the house keys back."
> 
> And/or any other necessary requirements (which don't necessarily all need to go in the same long letter).
> 
> The letter as proposed is insincere because its intent does not match the words. The purpose of the letter is not to end the relationship, the purpose is clearly to have him continue the relationship.
> 
> I know this because I wrote letters like that. They don't feel good in the gut to write, because they are not good. They are manipulative. They fall below standards I believe reasonable people should hold themselves to. It is no use shifting to manipulation because begging has proven to be ineffective. It's just clutching at straws to win him back and that should not be your objective. Your objective should be to face your fear, and be strong alone for a while.
> 
> What would feel good to write, what is decisive, strong, and right, is "I want the house keys back".


Yes, the letter is to get him back...but, it is to get him back by showing him what it will be like after D...

The Surviving An Affair book by Dr. Harley commends this type of letter and it is based on that...I take it you do not agree with his ideas?

It is my last effort to help him see the light...ugh...I know I should probably not send it at all...


----------



## CEL

You have nothing to lose by sending it. Many are saying move on and they are right. Here is the deal whatever you want you will move on as days or weeks go by it will hurt less and you will go through the stages will ye or nill ye. If giving him the letter helps you get through this time well then send it better to have no regrets you have plenty of time to not talk to him after. As always the choice is yours and I KNOW you will make the right one for you.


----------



## jestrina

Thank you for your posts & expressing your feelings...I am in a similar situation for the most part...H living with OW...but loves & misses me still... but still stays with her...makes no sense to me... especially since he still sees me and doesn't wanna lose me... its the worst struggle of emotions I have ever experienced ...some days seem unbearable...but reading your experience & roller coaster of feelings this far and also reading the awesome advice you've been given has helped me tons. So thanks for helping me not feel so alone.


----------



## mineforever

10 years ago I went through a similar expeeience with him. I have no idea how I did it now but back then I got some very good advise from an older women who by chance had also been through the same thing. She told me to let him go...let him know this is your home and family, that I love him and will wait for him for 6 months. That the door will be open for 6 months, he can come home no questions asked. After the 6 months, I will be moving on. 

I followed her advise. He cried...gave me a big hug....said thank you...and left and moved in with the OW. One week later he called and begged to move back home. Not sure why it worked but it did...just thought I would put it out there. Your letter made me think of it, because it is kind of the same principal...sometimes you have to let something or someone free to have them come back to you. Best of wishes to you...either way you have the strength inside you to be happy again....hang in there!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

The reason it worked is that you SHOWED him you respect yourself too much to wait around forever. He suddenly thought, wow, I might really lose her. So instantly your 'value' went up in his eyes. It's the ones who wait forever that they can take for granted and eat cake off of.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> You have nothing to lose by sending it. Many are saying move on and they are right. Here is the deal whatever you want you will move on as days or weeks go by it will hurt less and you will go through the stages will ye or nill ye. If giving him the letter helps you get through this time well then send it better to have no regrets you have plenty of time to not talk to him after. As always the choice is yours and I KNOW you will make the right one for you.


Thank you, CEL, for your post...everybody on here except Get Tough says I should send the letter...I totally understand what Get Tough us saying but, for me, I need to know that I did everything...

So, I am thinking that I will send it...not sure when...he called a little while ago to say that he can't make it to swimming and that he has a dr appointment tomorrow. He has waited 2 weeks procrastinating finding out the results of his last test on his nodules...he was was also checking on my kitty. She seems to be doing better today...

You are right, I have nothing to lose sending it...and I also need to talk to him about talking to our son about his living situation so, he can start going over there and staying every other weekend...since that isn't included in the letter anymore.


----------



## kimmycat

jestrina said:


> Thank you for your posts & expressing your feelings...I am in a similar situation for the most part...H living with OW...but loves & misses me still... but still stays with her...makes no sense to me... especially since he still sees me and doesn't wanna lose me... its the worst struggle of emotions I have ever experienced ...some days seem unbearable...but reading your experience & roller coaster of feelings this far and also reading the awesome advice you've been given has helped me tons. So thanks for helping me not feel so alone.


Thank you for your post...it also helps me not feel alone...I hope it works out for you...and me, for that matter...day by day...we need to work on ourselves...and pray....


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

kimmycat said:


> It is my last effort to help him see the light...ugh...I know I should probably not send it at all...


Okay, quick story. I am not looking for sympathy.

My Grandmother got really sick after having her second stroke. She lived nearly a year, but her quality of life started to degrade. She started to recover, hit a plateau, regressed and she died.

Now, what does this have to do with you? The Nursing home suggested a DNR, I wanted a DNR and my mother wasn't sure. I'll tell you what I told my mother, "You do what you feel will make you sleep better at night." She actually signed the DNR, then went back and had it removed. She said it was because of what I said. Turns out, she remembered that her mother didn't want to die in a hospital. So, she listened to her gut and my Grandmother died in a very nice Hospice facility. Imagine how she would have felt if she signed the DNR, her mom died and then she remembered that promise?

You can always listen to advice, but you have to make the final decision yourself.

If you feel you need to send that letter go ahead. If it makes you feel better, go ahead. Now, I agree that you are contacting him too much, but I am not inside your head or in your situation. If that letter is what gets you to get moving on yourself do it. Good or bad, if it helps you "sleep better at night" get that stress over with.


----------



## CEL

Hey Kimmy want you to know we are all behind you remember that you have only seen him a little here and there. The pain you are feeling is not the loss of him it is the loss of a dream. The great thing about dreams is you can make new ones. How you expect your life to be without him is false right now. Don't let your mind torture you. You will be happy again. You will be in love again. The sun will continue to shine and your son will always live you.  my hope is with you.


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> The reason it worked is that you SHOWED him you respect yourself too much to wait around forever. He suddenly thought, wow, I might really lose her. So instantly your 'value' went up in his eyes. It's the ones who wait forever that they can take for granted and eat cake off of.


Hopefully, my H will see me with more value after the letter? I just feel he had to eat cake for awhile to allow him to have good memories of me...it was the only way because of how bad it had been...

I know I probably have no chance either way...


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Hey Kimmy want you to know we are all behind you remember that you have only seen him a little here and there. The pain you are feeling is not the loss of him it is the loss of a dream. The great thing about dreams is you can make new ones. How you expect your life to be without him is false right now. Don't let your mind torture you. You will be happy again. You will be in love again. The sun will continue to shine and your son will always live you.  my hope is with you.



Thank you, CEL...it sure feels like the loss of him...plus the loss of my life, my family, yes...my dreams...

Yes, I just can't seem to get over the broken family thing...since I am from a broken family and it still haunts me according to my IC...


----------



## kimmycat

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Okay, quick story. I am not looking for sympathy.
> 
> My Grandmother got really sick after having her second stroke. She lived nearly a year, but her quality of life started to degrade. She started to recover, hit a plateau, regressed and she died.
> 
> Now, what does this have to do with you? The Nursing home suggested a DNR, I wanted a DNR and my mother wasn't sure. I'll tell you what I told my mother, "You do what you feel will make you sleep better at night." She actually signed the DNR, then went back and had it removed. She said it was because of what I said. Turns out, she remembered that her mother didn't want to die in a hospital. So, she listened to her gut and my Grandmother died in a very nice Hospice facility. Imagine how she would have felt if she signed the DNR, her mom died and then she remembered that promise?
> 
> You can always listen to advice, but you have to make the final decision yourself.
> 
> If you feel you need to send that letter go ahead. If it makes you feel better, go ahead. Now, I agree that you are contacting him too much, but I am not inside your head or in your situation. If that letter is what gets you to get moving on yourself do it. Good or bad, if it helps you "sleep better at night" get that stress over with.


Thank you so much for that story...it really helps...I need to send it...


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> Yes, the letter is to get him back...but, it is to get him back by showing him what it will be like after D...
> 
> The Surviving An Affair book by Dr. Harley commends this type of letter and it is based on that...I take it you do not agree with his ideas?
> 
> It is my last effort to help him see the light...ugh...I know I should probably not send it at all...


He's not just having an affair. This isn't a situation where he has simply strayed or been tempted. He's dumped you. That says nothing about him or about you - in itself. No judgment here. You might be the most beautiful person in the world. It's just the situation.

I'm all in favor of you standing up for your red lines, where necessary, but that's not what you're doing. You're trying to win him back under the GUISE of standing up for your red lines.

The objective that is win-win for you now is to try to let him go and be strong alone.


----------



## GetTough

jestrina said:


> Thank you for your posts & expressing your feelings...I am in a similar situation for the most part...H living with OW...*but loves & misses me still... but still stays with her...makes no sense to me*... especially since he still sees me and doesn't wanna lose me... its the worst struggle of emotions I have ever experienced ...some days seem unbearable...but reading your experience & roller coaster of feelings this far and also reading the awesome advice you've been given has helped me tons. So thanks for helping me not feel so alone.


I'll tell you why it doesn't make sense to you. Because it is _nonsense_, that's why. He's spinning you a line, like he's spinning Kimmy a line. Perhaps intentionally, perhaps NOT intentionally, but it's still a line.

He may feel guilty, he doesn't want to be the "bad guy", he probably feels residual attachment (which is VERY different from love), and he is not acting like a man who loves you. If he doesn't want to lose you, he should start acting like it.

If you listen to motivational audio, you will hear many speakers say that you get what you deserve in this life. Start to believe you deserve a man who's not treating you like you're his n-th choice, and that's what you'll get pretty fast - A man who wants to make you his first choice and give you all the love you could dream of.


----------



## GetTough

mineforever said:


> 10 years ago I went through a similar expeeience with him. I have no idea how I did it now but back then I got some very good advise from an older women who by chance had also been through the same thing. She told me to let him go...let him know this is your home and family, that I love him and will wait for him for 6 months. That the door will be open for 6 months, he can come home no questions asked. After the 6 months, I will be moving on.
> 
> I followed her advise. He cried...gave me a big hug....said thank you...and left and moved in with the OW. One week later he called and begged to move back home. Not sure why it worked but it did...just thought I would put it out there. Your letter made me think of it, because it is kind of the same principal...sometimes you have to let something or someone free to have them come back to you. Best of wishes to you...either way you have the strength inside you to be happy again....hang in there!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


A lot of people do this. And I did this too. But I was wrong. It was another attempt at manipulation. It's basically the threat that, "you're only going to get so long buddy".

But you and I know the left partner doesn't really mean it. I didn't really mean it. Again it is insincere. You don't want that day to come 6 months from now when you say, no more chance, you've lost me. That's not how you really feel. You're just saying it to force them to come back.

You just want the other person to THINK they will lose you, when really you have no clue whether, 6 months from now they will have lost you or not. In fact, the way you feel at the moment, you probably feel that day will NEVER come. So how insincere is that?

No don't do it, just move on, quietly. You don't know when you will be done so how can you honestly tell them.


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> ...I have nothing to lose sending it...


That's what I thought too. And the next time I did something supplicative. And the time after that, until a year later I'd realized I'd done this begging so much, the UGH factor she felt was so high that she was never coming back. Emotional comfort is much more important to women than men, but men are still turned off by someone who'e clinging on them.

Sure its not this one cheesecake that makes someone fat, or those french fries, but the cumulative effect of not changing course is that the situation eventually become a LOT harder to recover from. Same here. I'm just going to drink my beer now. One beer can't hurt me, right?


----------



## firefly789

kc, I'm rooting for you and for your H to see the light. I think sending the letter is the right step. It shows him that this scenario is not going to continue forever. You gave it your best, but it puts a deadline of the D going through, and for you to move on. I just don't see you begging for another year (I hope not!) The letter will make him realize that the time is over for him to have his home, you, and the OW. I hope if he delays the D again, you don't back down and let it go back to the way it has been the last few months.

You are a strong woman. If your H comes back, I hope you can create a new M in which you both are equal partners. You will have a lot of work with his past EA history, your prior indifference, and all of this past summer. If he doesn't come back, you can hold your head high knowing that you gave it your best for you and DS. Then, when you have a new relationship you will be able to make it strong from all of your self discovery and growth.


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## kimmycat

firefly789 said:


> kc, I'm rooting for you and for your H to see the light. I think sending the letter is the right step. It shows him that this scenario is not going to continue forever. You gave it your best, but it puts a deadline of the D going through, and for you to move on. I just don't see you begging for another year (I hope not!) The letter will make him realize that the time is over for him to have his home, you, and the OW. I hope if he delays the D again, you don't back down and let it go back to the way it has been the last few months.
> 
> You are a strong woman. If your H comes back, I hope you can create a new M in which you both are equal partners. You will have a lot of work with his past EA history, your prior indifference, and all of this past summer. If he doesn't come back, you can hold your head high knowing that you gave it your best for you and DS. Then, when you have a new relationship you will be able to make it strong from all of your self discovery and growth.


Thank you...I really hope that he sees the light, too...you're right, even if he doesn't come back, I will have learned so much that I will be able to make any possible future relationship stronger...


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> That's what I thought too. And the next time I did something supplicative. And the time after that, until a year later I'd realized I'd done this begging so much, the UGH factor she felt was so high that she was never coming back. Emotional comfort is much more important to women than men, but men are still turned off by someone who'e clinging on them.
> 
> Sure its not this one cheesecake that makes someone fat, or those french fries, but the cumulative effect of not changing course is that the situation eventually become a LOT harder to recover from. Same here. I'm just going to drink my beer now. One beer can't hurt me, right?


Thank you for your wisdom...I hope I can stay dark after this letter...no more supplication!

However, I still don't know if I'm sending the letter...so scared to do anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just want my husband home...:'(


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## turnera

GetTough said:


> That's what I thought too. And the next time I did something supplicative. And the time after that, until a year later I'd realized I'd done this begging so much, the UGH factor she felt was so high that she was never coming back. Emotional comfort is much more important to women than men, but men are still turned off by someone who'e clinging on them.


kimmy, I said I wouldn't give you advice any more, but I just have to say this one thing: Do you know what would make him sit up and say 'what happened? where's my kimmy?'

If you disappeared from his life. No words, no letter, no EMOTION during exchanges. Just GONE. NO longer available to him. *Nothing* eats at a man like a woman who doesn't want him.


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## kimmycat

turnera said:


> kimmy, I said I wouldn't give you advice any more, but I just have to say this one thing: Do you know what would make him sit up and say 'what happened? where's my kimmy?'
> 
> If you disappeared from his life. No words, no letter, no EMOTION during exchanges. Just GONE. NO longer available to him. *Nothing* eats at a man like a woman who doesn't want him.


I know my H and he would think I had just gone back to my old shutdown ways...


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## turnera

Easily fixed.

"H, I've apologized for shutting down and I've tried my hardest to show you what our marriage could look like these past few months, but what you have done by moving in with OW while still married to me is too harmful to me. I'm moving on, to save my own sanity. Please do not contact me."


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## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> I know my H and he would think I had just gone back to my old shutdown ways...


Every minute you are focused on what he's thinking about you or what his perception is of you, could have spent doing any of a million other things that bring you joy or progress, or both. Nearly all of which would give you a better chance of winning him back than actively pursuing him.

I think you have the view that the main reason he is not coming back is because you shutdown. That may have been a contributing factor leading up to this, but it's not IMO the main reason he's not coming back right now. Even if he believed you would never shutdown again, I think it would make very little difference to his decision now. 

You may believe that all you have to do is make him believe you've changed, but I think that is far from sufficient now.

No-one wants to be around someone when they feel pressured by that person. And he must feel almost continual pressure from you when you interact. So he's developing a stronger and stronger association in his mind as this kind of relationship with him goes on, like this:

YOU = DISCOMFORT

Relationships and strong connections are built on comfort and trust and mutual respect. You are destroying all three by not letting him go!

If you took the pressure off him a lot (e.g. don't send any wordy or emotional letters for a start), and really tried to move on, then you would likely begin to turn things around in your relationship with him. He probably doesn't even feel like he can be friends with you right now.


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## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> Every minute you are focused on what he's thinking about you or what his perception is of you, could have spent doing any of a million other things that bring you joy or progress, or both. Nearly all of which would give you a better chance of winning him back than actively pursuing him.
> 
> I think you have the view that the main reason he is not coming back is because you shutdown. That may have been a contributing factor leading up to this, but it's not IMO the main reason he's not coming back right now. Even if he believed you would never shutdown again, I think it would make very little difference to his decision now.
> 
> You may believe that all you have to do is make him believe you've changed, but I think that is far from sufficient now.
> 
> No-one wants to be around someone when they feel pressured by that person. And he must feel almost continual pressure from you when you interact. So he's developing a stronger and stronger association in his mind as this kind of relationship with him goes on, like this:
> 
> YOU = DISCOMFORT
> 
> Relationships and strong connections are built on comfort and trust and mutual respect. You are destroying all three by not letting him go!
> 
> If you took the pressure off him a lot (e.g. don't send any wordy or emotional letters for a start), and really tried to move on, then you would likely begin to turn things around in your relationship with him. He probably doesn't even feel like he can be friends with you right now.


I haven't sent the letter...I haven't really contacted him at all...he knows I love him...yesterday was the last day of swimming lessons and now, I won't see him at all except today when he comes to spend time with our son while I am at IC.

The reason I think he isn't coming back due to him thinking about the shutdown happening again is because that is what he tells me...

The pain is not going away...it is so terrible...

Yesterday evening after swimming lessons, I told him we had plans with my son's friend and his mom and we did...it was a fun night...but, the whole time, I was wishing H was with us...

This Thursday is the court date and I am so scared that he will let it go through...even if he doesn't, I fear it is only because he doesn't have the rest of the money for the lawyer...

I still feel like it is all a nightmare that I want to wake up from so bad...all of it...the shutdown, him leaving, the OW, his health problems, my son's pain, my pain, H's pain...

The last thing I want to be is DISCOMFORT...

I just don't understand why it seemed like we were getting along so well and then, poof, he stopped spending time with me and very much less time with our son...


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> The reason I think he isn't coming back due to him thinking about the shutdown happening again is because that is what he tells me...


He's a cheater. Cheaters lie, by definition. They lie to make themselves look as innocent as possible and the other person as guilty as possible. "How could I have chosen any other path? You DROVE me to it!"

You need to understand that cheaters turn into aliens, pod people, once they start cheating. They do things the old person would NEVER do, just to keep the drug coming. You can trust NOTHING ty say, only what they do.


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## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> I just don't understand why it seemed like we were getting along so well and then, poof, he stopped spending time with me and very much less time with our son...


"Getting along so well", is likely not how he perceived it. Even being perfectly friendly and even sexual together, he has a lot on his mind too. It's not the great relationship for him that you might imagine. I can't even imagine that you really felt totally at ease with him given your situation. It can't have felt truly "good" to you, the last few weeks, didn't you feel mostly just relieved that there seemed to be some hope there, rather than you were "getting along so well"?

He couldn't have been totally comfortable in the situation. He's probably feeling guilty about "cheating" on OW while he's with you. He may not want to risk losing her. He may not want to continue giving you false hope, even if he enjoys the sex. So basically something had to give.

So he chose.

Now you have to accept that, or he will be forced to move from simply not spending time with you, to actively pushing you away with more forceful language or actions. I recommend you don't go there, it can be very painful and expensive, especially with children in the mix. If you can't let him go, you may ultimately force him to do things that make you hate him.

You love him, so you must want the best for him right? For whatever reasons, he has decided he cannot be happy with you. You might be a great person, but he no longer feels you are suited together. That may change over time, but for now your best course is to let him find his happiness while you find yours. The Dalai Lama said, "People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they're not on your road doesn't mean they've gotten lost."


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## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> "Getting along so well", is likely not how he perceived it. Even being perfectly friendly and even sexual together, he has a lot on his mind too. It's not the great relationship for him that you might imagine. I can't even imagine that you really felt totally at ease with him given your situation. It can't have felt truly "good" to you, the last few weeks, didn't you feel mostly just relieved that there seemed to be some hope there, rather than you were "getting along so well"?
> 
> He couldn't have been totally comfortable in the situation. He's probably feeling guilty about "cheating" on OW while he's with you. He may not want to risk losing her. He may not want to continue giving you false hope, even if he enjoys the sex. So basically something had to give.
> 
> So he chose.
> 
> Now you have to accept that, or he will be forced to move from simply not spending time with you, to actively pushing you away with more forceful language or actions. I recommend you don't go there, it can be very painful and expensive, especially with children in the mix. If you can't let him go, you may ultimately force him to do things that make you hate him.
> 
> You love him, so you must want the best for him right? For whatever reasons, he has decided he cannot be happy with you. You might be a great person, but he no longer feels you are suited together. That may change over time, but for now your best course is to let him find his happiness while you find yours. The Dalai Lama said, "People take different roads seeking fulfillment and happiness. Just because they're not on your road doesn't mean they've gotten lost."


I know you're right...he chose...he doesn't feel he can be happy with me...he doesn't want to keep giving me false hope...he feels he doesn't want to lose her...he will start pushing me away if I don't accept that he is gone...

It is the worst pain I have ever had in my life...the only way to move on is to keep going to IC and start focusing on my blessings...

This is so heartbreaking, gut-wrenching, devastating, hopeless...I can't believe it all happened...truly, I am so sorry for my part in all of this...how could it have gotten to this point? How could I have not realized that I was going to lose him? How could I have not listened all those times that he tried to talk to me about the fact that he was going to leave? How could I have not realized that I needed to take care of him and treat him with love???? I don't know if I can ever forgive myself for these things...


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> I know you're right...he chose...he doesn't feel he can be happy with me...he doesn't want to keep giving me false hope...he feels he doesn't want to lose her...he will start pushing me away if I don't accept that he is gone...
> 
> It is the worst pain I have ever had in my life...the only way to move on is to keep going to IC and start focusing on my blessings...
> 
> This is so heartbreaking, gut-wrenching, devastating, hopeless...I can't believe it all happened...truly, I am so sorry for my part in all of this...how could it have gotten to this point? How could I have not realized that I was going to lose him? How could I have not listened all those times that he tried to talk to me about the fact that he was going to leave? How could I have not realized that I needed to take care of him and treat him with love???? I don't know if I can ever forgive myself for these things...


I missed the warning signs in my marriage too... it wasn't made as clear to me as it was to you... but I imagine it would have been clear to most outside observers. I have found it hard to forgive myself as well... I blame myself, I feel that I let her down... for the longest time a big part of the reason for my wanting my ex back was to give her the marriage I knew she wanted, that I felt she had deserved because she had shown me a lot of love.

But of course wanting to give her that, was in large part about ME, easing MY conscience, helping ME to feel better, helping ME to forgive MYSELF. It didn't really focus on what she needed, which was to move on. So I decided that I can forgive myself and I could make amends by treating her as though she was the best ex anyone could wish for 

Now I just try to make amends by not pressing her, not needing anything from her, by letting her be, by letting her initiate communications, by giving to her, helping where I can, (note without diminishing my self-respect) and also while standing up for what is important when I have to, with firmness and kindness. Refusing to get drawn into arguments, just taking a position and letting things be. And things are improving between us.


----------



## karole

Kimmy, I am so sorry for all your pain. I wish it would go away quickly, but it won't unfortunately; however, it will get better - little by little. I had a thought, which is merely speculation, but I wonder if your husband is putting this distance between you these last few days before the divorce in order to give the OW a fair chance. He probably feels he owes her that - to see if she is actually the person he perceived her to be and whether he can see a future with her. 

You were not perfect in your marriage & neither was your husband. He has responsibility in the breakdown of your marriage too. If he should decide at some point to R, he needs to own up to his mistakes too. 

Do something nice for yourself. The worst thing you can do is sit around just thinking.


----------



## alte Dame

GetTough said:


> I missed the warning signs in my marriage too... it wasn't made as clear to me as it was to you... but I imagine it would have been clear to most outside observers. I have found it hard to forgive myself as well... I blame myself, I feel that I let her down... for the longest time a big part of the reason for my wanting my ex back was to give her the marriage I knew she wanted, that I felt she had deserved because she had shown me a lot of love.
> 
> But of course wanting to give her that, was in large part about ME, easing MY conscience, helping ME to feel better, helping ME to forgive MYSELF. It didn't really focus on what she needed, which was to move on. So I decided that I can forgive myself and I could make amends by treating her as though she was the best ex anyone could wish for
> 
> Now I just try to make amends by not pressing her, not needing anything from her, by letting her be, by letting her initiate communications, by giving to her, helping where I can, (note without diminishing my self-respect) and also while standing up for what is important when I have to, with firmness and kindness. Refusing to get drawn into arguments, just taking a position and letting things be. And things are improving between us.


I think this is a very good post.


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## LetDownNTX

Kimmy, do you think you will send the letter?

Also, as painful as it is you have to take baby steps. I can remember going somewhere and wishing I was somewhere else with my husband. He wasn't around but no matter where I was I would be thinking about him and wanting to hear from him. Take each moment as it comes and of you get through it, then start taking longer moments. Before you know it you will be going days without him and you will realize you hardly thought about him. All in time, friend!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CEL

Kimmy it does get easier I know you are hurting and I know you give anything to have him back. You fought and you fought hard some battles you fight and don't win. 

You are getting great advice from those who have been in your shoes. Go outside and realize you still have your son. You still have yourself. You stool have a lot if life and love in you. Again it will get better.


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> I missed the warning signs in my marriage too... it wasn't made as clear to me as it was to you... but I imagine it would have been clear to most outside observers. I have found it hard to forgive myself as well... I blame myself, I feel that I let her down... for the longest time a big part of the reason for my wanting my ex back was to give her the marriage I knew she wanted, that I felt she had deserved because she had shown me a lot of love.
> 
> But of course wanting to give her that, was in large part about ME, easing MY conscience, helping ME to feel better, helping ME to forgive MYSELF. It didn't really focus on what she needed, which was to move on. So I decided that I can forgive myself and I could make amends by treating her as though she was the best ex anyone could wish for
> 
> Now I just try to make amends by not pressing her, not needing anything from her, by letting her be, by letting her initiate communications, by giving to her, helping where I can, (note without diminishing my self-respect) and also while standing up for what is important when I have to, with firmness and kindness. Refusing to get drawn into arguments, just taking a position and letting things be. And things are improving between us.


Thank you...good points...thanks for sharing these things and ideas from your experience...I will also treat him like the best ex and have no expectations...


----------



## kimmycat

karole said:


> Kimmy, I am so sorry for all your pain. I wish it would go away quickly, but it won't unfortunately; however, it will get better - little by little. I had a thought, which is merely speculation, but I wonder if your husband is putting this distance between you these last few days before the divorce in order to give the OW a fair chance. He probably feels he owes her that - to see if she is actually the person he perceived her to be and whether he can see a future with her.
> 
> You were not perfect in your marriage & neither was your husband. He has responsibility in the breakdown of your marriage too. If he should decide at some point to R, he needs to own up to his mistakes too.
> 
> Do something nice for yourself. The worst thing you can do is sit around just thinking.



Thank you for your post...appreciate your help...
He said he was going to give her a fair chance...that WAS right before he stopped spending the night...I really think your right...it is just so hard to realize that you have to let your own husband give another woman a chance and move on and maybe, you will reconcile and maybe, not...I mean, he is my husband, not some boyfriend...but, I guess, since I shut him out so badly for 4 years, I have to realize that I am in a very unique situation that will require extreme patience and forgiveness if we are ever going to have a chance and it may not be any time soon...


----------



## kimmycat

LetDownNTX said:


> Kimmy, do you think you will send the letter?
> 
> Also, as painful as it is you have to take baby steps. I can remember going somewhere and wishing I was somewhere else with my husband. He wasn't around but no matter where I was I would be thinking about him and wanting to hear from him. Take each moment as it comes and of you get through it, then start taking longer moments. Before you know it you will be going days without him and you will realize you hardly thought about him. All in time, friend!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm really thinking of not sending the letter...I don't know if it's the right thing to do or just that I'm too scared I will make him mad...

You definitely understand what I'm going through and I hope I also will heal...days without thinking about him? Wow, I could really use a break from thinking about him even for one day...thank you, friend!


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Kimmy it does get easier I know you are hurting and I know you give anything to have him back. You fought and you fought hard some battles you fight and don't win.
> 
> You are getting great advice from those who have been in your shoes. Go outside and realize you still have your son. You still have yourself. You stool have a lot if life and love in you. Again it will get better.


Thank you, CEL...yes, I fought hard...I so appreciate you and your empathy and insight...all through this....like I said before, if I have ANY chance at all it is because you helped me give him something to miss so he isn't only thinking of all the bad memories...

And yes, I am also getting great advice from others that have been there...all appreciated...I really don't know where I would be if I hadn't found TAM and you and others...yes, even GET TOUGH...


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> Thank you for your post...appreciate your help...
> He said he was going to give her a fair chance...that WAS right before he stopped spending the night...I really think your right...it is just so hard to realize that you have to let your own husband give another woman a chance and move on and maybe, you will reconcile and maybe, not...I mean, he is my husband, not some boyfriend...but, I guess, since I shut him out so badly for 4 years, I have to realize that I am in a very unique situation that will require extreme patience and forgiveness if we are ever going to have a chance and it may not be any time soon...


Yes, this is a marathon, not a sprint. You may be surprised and he changes his mind suddenly, but I wouldn't count on it. There are a couple of good books that I picked up recently which I think might help you... one is "Who Moved My Cheese" by Spencer Johnson, the other is "The Art of Uncertainty" by Dennis Jones. The first one has a slightly more business focus, shorter and definitely relevant, the second one is more spiritual and more in depth. Both are focused on how to cope well with change.

Its tempting to read material on how to win your ex back or how to repair the relationship instead, but I feel by so doing you lean your ladder against the wrong wall. I read this kind of material for a long time, trying to find tactics that might work, but ultimately what helped me was embracing the change and letting go. By letting go, you give your ex the space to begin to warm to you again, over time.


----------



## CEL

Don't worry about the letter it is no sweat. Do it or don't do it. It is all up to you but either way it is only going to reinforce whatever idea he has. So like I say no one action will sink you or make you swim. Just take a deep breath and remember one day at a time. We still got your back Kimmy


----------



## karole

Thinking of you Kimmy.......


----------



## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> Yes, this is a marathon, not a sprint. You may be surprised and he changes his mind suddenly, but I wouldn't count on it. There are a couple of good books that I picked up recently which I think might help you... one is "Who Moved My Cheese" by Spencer Johnson, the other is "The Art of Uncertainty" by Dennis Jones. The first one has a slightly more business focus, shorter and definitely relevant, the second one is more spiritual and more in depth. Both are focused on how to cope well with change.
> 
> Its tempting to read material on how to win your ex back or how to repair the relationship instead, but I feel by so doing you lean your ladder against the wrong wall. I read this kind of material for a long time, trying to find tactics that might work, but ultimately what helped me was embracing the change and letting go. By letting go, you give your ex the space to begin to warm to you again, over time.



Thanks...I have read Who Moved My Cheese a LONG time ago...gonna check out The Art of Uncertainty...

Gotta let go...


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Don't worry about the letter it is no sweat. Do it or don't do it. It is all up to you but either way it is only going to reinforce whatever idea he has. So like I say no one action will sink you or make you swim. Just take a deep breath and remember one day at a time. We still got your back Kimmy


Thank you, CEL...still haven't sent it...spent the day with good friends, but didn't hear from him....

Day by day...I got your back, too, CEL!!!!!


----------



## kimmycat

karole said:


> Thinking of you Kimmy.......


Thank you, Karole...nothing new...one day at a time...


----------



## CEL

kimmycat said:


> Thank you, CEL...still haven't sent it...spent the day with good friends, but didn't hear from him....
> 
> Day by day...I got your back, too, CEL!!!!!


Thanks right now I needed that. Not all sunshine and rainbows where I am sitting. Damn life really sucks sometimes huh? Well when we get to the other side at least we can look back on it together Kimmy.


----------



## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Thanks right now I needed that. Not all sunshine and rainbows where I am sitting. Damn life really sucks sometimes huh? Well when we get to the other side at least we can look back on it together Kimmy.



I'm so sorry, CEL...yes, life sucks sometimes, bad! Yes, we have to get to the other side...I hope you are on that other side soon...yes, please, keep posting so we can keep in touch...I will, too...


----------



## kimmycat

Update:

My MIL called me this morning...she had just gone back to work after the summer and read an email I had sent a while back...it was my only way to contact her other than going to her house...we cried and cried on the phone and she said that his sister and she do not accept this divorce and want him to come home and that he has been telling his sister that he is not happy with the OW. She said that she is sorry that she had not contacted me earlier but, she didn't know if she should. She says that now that she knows that I want him back that she is so happy and that she knows he will come home. I am so glad that she feels this way but, I'm still hopeless...although it felt so good to talk to her.

She called H and asked if she could come over to our house today and he said that she could could call me and ask and that he was coming over, too (news to me).

Well, she called and told me that he also told her that tomorrow's court date had been moved to the end of August. 

On Saturday, he came over to babysit while I went to IC and didn't call or text when he was in his way and today, called right while he was driving up...I don't know what that means...I knew he was coming St but, he didn't tell me he was coming today but, knew I was expecting his mom and brother at the time that he came. It probably doesn't mean anything...here I am trying to figure out every detail again...

So, my MIL, BIL and H all came over at 5:30 and just left. Our son was in another room and I just sat on the love seat and quietly talked to his mom while he was across the room talking to his brother. h knew we were both crying...she was telling me that our story wasn't over and that she and his whole family want me and that is that...I was telling her thank you...she was very encouraging and loving and it felt good...

I asked H if tomorrow's hearing was changed or he changed and he I'd he did...I just out my hand on his shoulder and thanked him. He had his arms crossed and just smiled uncomfortably since his mom and brother were there...

We had no time to talk privately but, it was a good visit...I know I was wrong to cry in front of him but I just couldn't help it with his mom crying so much.

I am not foolish enough to think that he is coming home but, I am comforted by my new contact with my MIL and her calls and visit...


----------



## kimmycat

Now, that this has all happened, I think I am making the right decision not to send the letter...but, continue no contact, just without the letter...


----------



## LetDownNTX

I just wanted to point out something you said...you said "I am still hopeless" but the truth is that you are NOT hopeless...if you were you wouldnt be doing what you are doing. You should never give up hope, if there is an ounce of hope in your body/mind you should embrace it. Sometimes its all that keeps us going. If and when the time comes that you need to close this door and move on , you will know!


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## CEL

Kimmy all you have to do is be true to yourself that's it. All good stuff and you are getting there just hang in there and have faith in yourself. You will make it. It will get better. You will be happy again.


----------



## turnera

Has it occurred to you that he felt ganged up on by you and his family?


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> Has it occurred to you that he felt ganged up on by you and his family?


Not at all, it wasn't like that...there was no talking about us to him...his mom and I were talking across the room...he was talking to his brother about cars and cell phones and stuff...it was very positive...nothing like you think...


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## kimmycat

CEL said:


> Kimmy all you have to do is be true to yourself that's it. All good stuff and you are getting there just hang in there and have faith in yourself. You will make it. It will get better. You will be happy again.


Thank you, CEL...it does feel good to know I have his family's support...I just hope when I am happy again, it is with him...hope you are doing well...worried about you, too...


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## kimmycat

LetDownNTX said:


> I just wanted to point out something you said...you said "I am still hopeless" but the truth is that you are NOT hopeless...if you were you wouldnt be doing what you are doing. You should never give up hope, if there is an ounce of hope in your body/mind you should embrace it. Sometimes its all that keeps us going. If and when the time comes that you need to close this door and move on , you will know!


Thank you...I am just scared to hang on to false hope...but, I hope you are right in that I will know when to close the door...and I know, with your experience, you are probably right...thank you for saying to not give up hope...it has been the only thing keeping me going all summer and I haven't felt it in the last 2 weeks...that is what has gotten me so down, hopelessness...now, fear of hope from today...


----------



## LetDownNTX

kimmycat said:


> Thank you...I am just scared to hang on to false hope...but, I hope you are right in that I will know when to close the door...and I know, with your experience, you are probably right...thank you for saying to not give up hope...it has been the only thing keeping me going all summer and I haven't felt it in the last 2 weeks...that is what has gotten me so down, hopelessness...now, fear of hope from today...


The way I see it...he pushed the date back again, there is a reason for that. Maybe he is unsure? I would say it has to he a hard place to be in when you have someone living with you that gave up their whole life to move. Try not to focus in him and what he is thinking. Obviously he is uncertain and you don't need to make your days harder by trying to figure him out. Let him figure it out for himself on his own time and if he takes too long you might find that it's too late for you!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## kimmycat

LetDownNTX said:


> The way I see it...he pushed the date back again, there is a reason for that. Maybe he is unsure? I would say it has to he a hard place to be in when you have someone living with you that gave up their whole life to move. Try not to focus in him and what he is thinking. Obviously he is uncertain and you don't need to make your days harder by trying to figure him out. Let him figure it out for himself on his own time and if he takes too long you might find that it's too late for you!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right, I need to not focus on what he is thinking...I know the best thing to do is be patient which is so hard to do...thank you for your thoughts and support...I am so grateful that I am not divorced today and and am thanking God for this extra time...


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## GetTough

There's a saying... don't make someone a priority in your life if you're not a priority in theirs. He's dithering and you should ideally be just getting on with things independent of him. The more you can do this, the more attractive you will be to him. 

Become a little less available, by that I mean I would not respond immediately to every text or call. Try to do that because you're genuinely busy getting on with stuff that is directly valuable to you (e.g. exercise). Give him the gift of missing you.


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## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> There's a saying... don't make someone a priority in your life if you're not a priority in theirs. He's dithering and you should ideally be just getting on with things independent of him. The more you can do this, the more attractive you will be to him.
> 
> Become a little less available, by that I mean I would not respond immediately to every text or call. Try to do that because you're genuinely busy getting on with stuff that is directly valuable to you (e.g. exercise). Give him the gift of missing you.


I have to do that, yes...trying....

Well, easier said than done...I haven't called him at all for over a week, but, I do answer his calls and texts...I have only seen him Monday...with my MIL, BIL and son....


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## phillybeffandswiss

The hard part is ignoring and complimenting his actions. I know you feel hope with him moving the date, the problem is you do not know why.

I'm going in another direction. In the last few weeks you have shown him strength. You told him to go ahead with the divorce, you started only talking to him about finances and I get the impression much of the affection has been curbed.

Now, he is having second thoughts.
Now, he pushes the date back.
Now, he is having serious conversations.

I think you have him worried about your strength. Reading the thread, I always get the impression he wants you and the OW chasing him. Now, that you have somewhat stopped, it is weird because he doesn't get that controlling high.

Stay strong.


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## kimmycat

Update: he called yesterday around 2:30 from work...he was calling cuz he was worried that our son is not calling him anymore...I said that he can call, too...in a nice way.

He said that I need to remind him to call...so I said okay.

Our son called him last night and they talked a little...I left the room...

He asked him to call in the morning and I had our son call him this morning...I wanted to leave the room but, my son wanted me there. He thanked our son for calling...

I feel awkward, like he is feeling guilty about not calling and putting the responsibility on me for having our son call...but, here I go trying to guess what he is thinking again...

Since divorce isn't final, I still don't want our son to meet OW and H hasn't mentioned it. But, this way our son is with me 24/7...except for a couple of hours on Saturday when I go to counselor...I want to ask H to take him out to dinner or to do something Father and son...but, don't want to tell H what to do...

I was thinking that it was time for our son to start spending every other weekend at his place but, now, that divorce has been postponed again, I don't know what to do...


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## turnera

It's not your job to get your son to call him. This is called a consequence.


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## kimmycat

I don't even think our son was ever really calling HIM, H was calling and coming over and now, he is not...so feeling guilty and trying to ask for my help but, not wanting to really ask for my help...


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## turnera

He chose to leave. This is a reasonable outcome of that, the lack of communication. If he doesn't like it, maybe he'll reconsider leaving.


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## vi_bride04

Its not your job to help him to be a parent....

He knows he has a son. He knows he can call. Why do you need to remind him if his son was so important?


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## kimmycat

vi_bride04 said:


> Its not your job to help him to be a parent....
> 
> He knows he has a son. He knows he can call. Why do you need to remind him if his son was so important?


He told me to remind our son, not to remind him...

You are right...he is a parent, too, I just don't want him mad at me...and I want my son to stay connected with his Daddy...I am a child of divorce and I know how it is...it is my and H's responsibility to make the calls...

I just don't know how to let H know that it is HIS responsibility to stay connected to our son, not mine, without having him angry at ME...I know that is doormattish...but, I have so much fear...

Intellectually, I know it is his responsibility, but, emotionally, I just can't seem to be able to take a stand...


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## Mzflower

How about a short email:

Quickly following up from your phone call the other day. Son misses you and I know you are worried about not speaking/seeing him; I see no reason why we cannot start the visitation agreed on in divorce settlement. I know son would be happy to have "daddy time" and I certainly can use the alone time to prepare and organize for getting back to work. How does next week work for you?

I know you are worried about upsetting hubby, something like this shouldn't! You deserve a break and time to yourself. I know son potentially meeting OW is killing you, but reality is he is living with her and if he continues to do so- he needs to take responsibility and step up. Maybe this will be the push he needs to choose. And please, do not give him the option of "visitation" at your place, you need the break!

I feel for you kimmy and my prayers are that you get strong - stop blaming yourself and tip-toeing around this guy!


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## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> He told me to remind our son, not to remind him...
> 
> You are right...he is a parent, too, I just don't want him mad at me...and I want my son to stay connected with his Daddy...I am a child of divorce and I know how it is...it is my and H's responsibility to make the calls...
> 
> I just don't know how to let H know that it is HIS responsibility to stay connected to our son, not mine, without having him angry at ME...I know that is doormattish...but, I have so much fear...
> 
> Intellectually, I know it is his responsibility, but, emotionally, I just can't seem to be able to take a stand...


There is no reason at all that you need to make any commitment to H "in the moment". You can always say something like, "I'll let you know on that".

I would recommend being "in acceptance" of as much as you can be, while standing up for what is truly important to you. There's a lot for you both to figure out right now. Many small decisions to make daily and occasional big, important ones. You don't want to be in the habit of accepting or rejecting all his requests automatically and you don't want to rush these decisions either, so you can defer anything you're not clear on.

Try to need as little from him as possible. Be as independent as you can. That's strong, attractive and good for your healing process.

And in all your communication, if you are in any doubt what you should say or choose on any potentially contentious issue, i.e. what position you should take, then after giving it a little thought, try to take the same position that a judge would order, then you will almost certainly be doing the best thing, especially for your son.

Yes, it is your H's responsibility to call your son. It's not yours to nudge either of them together. Don't press him to have a relationship with his son. Even a judge could not really force that and would be reluctant to try. Don't press your son to have a relationship with H. If your H says, "please remind son to call me", I would be inclined to say something simple like, "You can just call him at...(suggest a time to suit you)"

A counteroffer is the most cooperative way of refusing I know


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## karole

How are you Kimmy?


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## kimmycat

karole said:


> How are you Kimmy?


I am pretty much the same...nothing really new...talked to H about having son for the weekend and how maybe it is time to meet the OW since it is so close to school and last I spoke I was planning on dropping son off at his place every AM at 7 since I have to be at work at 7:30 and son has to be there at 8:00 and H at work at 8:00...that starts the 19...

He didn't want to have him this weekend...he came over to watch him while I went to counselor and then, stayed until about 8 PM...it was a cordial visit...

On Friday, when we were talking about son meeting OW (in the context of that is the only way for our son to stay with him every other weekend and every school day AM), I suggested that it may be time to meet her but I wasn't sure...he thinks that it is okay for son to meet her and adamantly said he has no plans to marry her...then said, we don't know what is going to happen between us...I I'd that if that is the case, he probably shouldn't meet her because it would teach him the wrong things....he said "no, it will be like mommy and daddy separated, daddy lived with someone else and then, mommy and daddy got back together...he will be so happy that we got back together that he will forget all about the OW." I told my IC about that comment and she said he saying that he is coming back and already planning it...????.... I don't see it that way. I think he is justifying our son meeting her even IF we might get back together.

And yes, we had sex...:/...I know.................


----------



## GetTough

kimmycat said:


> I am pretty much the same...nothing really new...talked to H about having son for the weekend and how maybe it is time to meet the OW since it is so close to school and last I spoke I was planning on dropping son off at his place every AM at 7 since I have to be at work at 7:30 and son has to be there at 8:00 and H at work at 8:00...that starts the 19...
> 
> He didn't want to have him this weekend...he came over to watch him while I went to counselor and then, stayed until about 8 PM...it was a cordial visit...
> 
> On Friday, when we were talking about son meeting OW (in the context of that is the only way for our son to stay with him every other weekend and every school day AM), I suggested that it may be time to meet her but I wasn't sure...he thinks that it is okay for son to meet her and adamantly said he has no plans to marry her...then said, we don't know what is going to happen between us...I I'd that if that is the case, he probably shouldn't meet her because it would teach him the wrong things....he said "no, it will be like mommy and daddy separated, daddy lived with someone else and then, mommy and daddy got back together...he will be so happy that we got back together that he will forget all about the OW." I told my IC about that comment and she said he saying that he is coming back and already planning it...????.... I don't see it that way. I think he is justifying our son meeting her even IF we might get back together.
> 
> And yes, we had sex...:/...I know.................


Pay no attention to what he SAYS only to what he DOES. What he is DOING is divorcing you, and wanting to make a family with OW. Of course he wants your cooperation on that, he is likely to say whatever to get that put in place as the "new normal". He probably knows if you fought it, you could likely (and quite easily) get a restraining order keeping son from OW. I am not saying you should do that, only what he may be thinking. Once it becomes the "new normal" it is harder for you to backtrack from. I think he is playing this carefully to keep you sweet and get what he wants.


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## kimmycat

GetTough said:


> Pay no attention to what he SAYS only to what he DOES. What he is DOING is divorcing you, and wanting to make a family with OW. Of course he wants your cooperation on that, he is likely to say whatever to get that put in place as the "new normal". He probably knows if you fought it, you could likely (and quite easily) get a restraining order keeping son from OW. I am not saying you should do that, only what he may be thinking. Once it becomes the "new normal" it is harder for you to backtrack from. I think he is playing this carefully to keep you sweet and get what he wants.



You're right, what he is DOING is divorcing me...I really think he just doesn't have the money to finish paying the lawyer, so it got rescheduled...

There is nothing I can gain from not accepting his relationship with her...I just want him to spend more time with our son. I told him that if he is not ready to have him for the weekend...then, I can go somewhere so he can feel more comfortable to stay longer and he insisted that he wanted me to be here and he did stay much longer...

Now that I have told him it is okay to meet her so our son can stay over there, he came over and stayed a lot longer. I can't help but think that he doesn't want our son for the weekend...he likes his freedom? He doesn't want me to have freedom? I need freedom to do things, too...to help me move on...


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## karole

kimmycat said:


> You're right, what he is DOING is divorcing me...I really think he just doesn't have the money to finish paying the lawyer, so it got rescheduled...
> 
> There is nothing I can gain from not accepting his relationship with her...I just want him to spend more time with our son. I told him that if he is not ready to have him for the weekend...then, I can go somewhere so he can feel more comfortable to stay longer and he insisted that he wanted me to be here and he did stay much longer...
> 
> Now that I have told him it is okay to meet her so our son can stay over there, he came over and stayed a lot longer. I can't help but think that he doesn't want our son for the weekend...he likes his freedom? He doesn't want me to have freedom? I need freedom to do things, too...to help me move on...


It's good to see you are finally thinking a little about yourself Kimmy. You do need time to yourself.


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## turnera

kimmycat said:


> And yes, we had sex...:/...I know.................


You know...what? That he has no reason to upset the boat? What man gives up getting sex from two women? Two WILLING women?

I'll tell you. Not many.


----------



## turnera

kimmycat said:


> I need freedom to do things, too...to help me move on...


Then DO it. TAKE your freedom. When he shows up next Saturday, let him know you have things to do after your IC and then spend the rest of the afternoon on your own. Let him see what divorce looks like.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

turnera said:


> You know...what? That he has no reason to upset the boat? What man gives up getting sex from two women? Two WILLING women?
> 
> I'll tell you. Not many.


All I could think, when I was reading this thread, was he is living every immature guy's fantasy. Yes, I was that immature guy at one time, but I never cheated. I was cringing when everyone was arguing. I wanted to yell, "Noooooooo he is loving this double action!"


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## LetDownNTX

Kimmy, I totally agree with Turnera on this one! You need to make plans next week and stay gone and let him take care of your son. Dont tell him what you are doing, just that you have plans. I know you dont want to do anything thats going to upset him and mess up the chances of him coming home but until he sees you breaking away he knows he has you. If you make him wonder a bit he will fear losing you (if he really wants you) and he will probably start to see things differently. He really doesnt have any room to say anything about what you go or who you go with. I'd let him think you were going to meet another guy. I wouldnt say thats what Im doing but I would let him think it if he asked. How is it fair that he's living a double life and you are waiting on him to change his mind.

An old guy friend told me one time....a man will act like he doesnt care about a woman til he sees another mans truck parked in her drive way!


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## karole

So Kimmy, did you make plans for yourself this weekend?


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## kimmycat

karole said:


> It's good to see you are finally thinking a little about yourself Kimmy. You do need time to yourself.



Yes, I do...still struggling with him meeting OW...we decided not to do it this weekend since it is the weekend before school starts...


----------



## kimmycat

turnera said:


> Then DO it. TAKE your freedom. When he shows up next Saturday, let him know you have things to do after your IC and then spend the rest of the afternoon on your own. Let him see what divorce looks like.


I'm gonna do this...even though I'm only getting my car serviced...


----------



## kimmycat

LetDownNTX said:


> Kimmy, I totally agree with Turnera on this one! You need to make plans next week and stay gone and let him take care of your son. Dont tell him what you are doing, just that you have plans. I know you dont want to do anything thats going to upset him and mess up the chances of him coming home but until he sees you breaking away he knows he has you. If you make him wonder a bit he will fear losing you (if he really wants you) and he will probably start to see things differently. He really doesnt have any room to say anything about what you go or who you go with. I'd let him think you were going to meet another guy. I wouldnt say thats what Im doing but I would let him think it if he asked. How is it fair that he's living a double life and you are waiting on him to change his mind.
> 
> An old guy friend told me one time....a man will act like he doesnt care about a woman til he sees another mans truck parked in her drive way!


I am going to stay out the rest of the day Saturday...hopefully, that will be the right thing to do...none of this is fair...it's just all a mess and heartbreaking....


----------



## kimmycat

karole said:


> So Kimmy, did you make plans for yourself this weekend?


Late this afternoon, my son and his best friend and his siblings, his mom (also going through a divorce) are going out to the beach for a late afternoon swim and then, out to dinner and to see some fireworks...

Then, tomorrow, counseling and to have my car serviced...

Sunday...getting ready to go to school and back to work...


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## kimmycat

Going back to work Monday!!!! No more time off! And, my son is going back to school...H is picking him up every morning the first week since I don't have to be in until 8 and that is what he used to do...after that, I have to be at work by 7:30 so, the plan was to leave him at his place at 7, but he can't do that until he has spent the weekend at least once and has been told about the OW and met her...so probably, he will go to morning daycare at his school...

I am hoping that going back to a regular schedule will be good for me and our son...

I don't know what the future holds...

Last night was parents' night at my son's school and my H met us there...then, came over for dinner...it was sad at the school with all the happy families...


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## 5Creed

kimmycat: I have been living this for two years~the comment you made about all the "happy families." Yes-they are out there but remember you really don't know what is going on in a family and that does not mean you will not be happy again someday. Maybe it will just be you and your son and that is OK!

It is a hard grief to go through and I understand. Try not to compare your situation to others though. I am glad you are there for your son and that is the most important job out there for you right now.

Sorry you are enduring the hell of the first part of this journey. It sucks so bad.


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## kimmycat

5Creed said:


> kimmycat: I have been living this for two years~the comment you made about all the "happy families." Yes-they are out there but remember you really don't know what is going on in a family and that does not mean you will not be happy again someday. Maybe it will just be you and your son and that is OK!
> 
> It is a hard grief to go through and I understand. Try not to compare your situation to others though. I am glad you are there for your son and that is the most important job out there for you right now.
> 
> Sorry you are enduring the hell of the first part of this journey. It sucks so bad.



Thank you for your post...appreciate it. Sorry you have been living it for TWO years...ugh...I have been with for about 5 months and I am so emotionally drained...

Your right, I shouldn't compare myself to other families...it is just so hard...nobody's life is perfect...it only seems that way through my longing eyes...

So sorry you have to go through this, too...sorry anybody has to...


----------



## 5Creed

I used to come home from open houses, the school carnival and conferences and cry and cry when we first separated and even last year. I hated that I seemed to be the "only" one without a loving husband and father by my side. All the other kids had their Dads there but my kids didn't!

I think feeling this way is all part of dealing with the grief of no longer having that man by your side and yes; missing the good times and the "what used to be." There was a lot of good in my marriage, but there was also some dysfunction there too. So normal to only miss the good and not remember so much of the problems.

I have slowly come to realize that there are all kinds of families out there. While I miss the completeness of what we used to be, I will not make this define me-that I am the only single Mom out there.

Whatever happens with you in the future, just try and do what you need to do for today. School function without him? Imagine he just had to work and do it for today only. Even though you don't feel like it all the time, you are strong and capable! If I don't look too far into the future, my life is much more manageable. I just do what I need to do for the short-term and I handle things better.

It will get better-I promise!


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## karole

How did your weekend go Kimmy? Did you spend the day Saturday doing something for you?


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## karole

Kimmy, please update us to let us know how you are doing.


----------



## kimmycat

karole said:


> How did your weekend go Kimmy? Did you spend the day Saturday doing something for you?


I ended up just coming home after counseling...too broke to do anything and I guess, too depressed...and wanting to see H...


----------



## kimmycat

karole said:


> Kimmy, please update us to let us know how you are doing.


Sorry, for not updating sooner...nothing has really changed as far as my H's and I's relationship...see below for update...


----------



## kimmycat

Well, I haven't been updating because nothing is new...I have not called him at all and he has been calling once or twice a day to see how my son is and sometimes asking how we both are doing...he has also been coming over in the mornings to take my son to school...even this week, when I have to be at school much earlier, he decided to come much earlier instead of me dropping him off at morning daycare since our son still hasn't spent the weekend with him or know anything about OW...

Our court date is now set for September 10...I am suspecting that it has been moved all these times just because he doesn't have the money to make the final payment to his lawyer...not because he is indecisive about our divorce at all...why do I think this? 1. I remember now him saying something like that back in June. 2. He has asked me to pay 1/2 of his lawyer. He got this idea because i told him I was kinda wanting to ask my mom for money so that inculd help him with the lawyer so, i could know for sure that if he comes home, it will be because he loves me and not because of $. A couple of days later, he asked me if I asked her and I said that that was just a crazy idea. However, he really wants me to ask her now! All my fault! I don't want to ask her! 3. He has told me that he thinks we should finalize the divorce and IF we get back together, we can remarry. He says then, we will have a clean slate. I told him that I believe that if he really loves me, he will not go through the divorce and he has said, no, that no, it would not mean that. 

I went back to work on August 19th and today, my students came back and being back at work has helped keep me from focusing only on my personal problems so, little by little, I feel myself detaching and starting to accept that this is my life now.

I am starting to realize that my H really doesn't see much hope or have much desire to return home...he told me the Saturday before last that the OW sat him down and let him know that this is not how she tight it was gonna be...that he is still married, she hasn't met his son yet and that he is not putting in his side of their relationship. He also said that she really does feel like a whxre living with a married man...he just said called it "an interesting conversation"...

He had a biopsy on his goiter last Thursday and gets the results this Wednesday and when I asked if he was going to come home he said, let's get through his health issues first...this came up because I said that if he gets bad news, it is gonna be so hard not having him home where I can be here for him and take care of him...he said, he knows and appreciates that very much...

So, no progress...


----------



## Affaircare

Hi Kimmy, 

I don't want to discourage you, but I have a few fairly important questions to ask you that I think may ultimately make you kind of sad. 

What is something you just LOVE to do? Got that answer in your head? Okay here's another quick one: Who is someone that you just LOVE to be with? I mean you *LOVE* it!! Got that answer in your head? Okay ... hold onto them a moment. 

If I were to say to you: "Hey Kimmy! You know how you love to do XYZ? Well I know it's short notice but how you like to go do it together? You and me? And I'll pay for everything--all you have to do is come!" Give me a guess...how long would it take you to say "yes" and then make the arrangements necessary to come with me? Would it take a really long time, or would you say "yes" within moments and then make the arrangements right away? Would you put it off and keep making excuses? Or would you move heaven and earth to do this thing you LOVE for free? 

Think about that a moment. 

Now, let's switch to the someone you love. Let me ask you this: if that person whom you absolutely, utterly adore somehow communicated to you that the want you and need you to be with them...how long would it take you to get your behiney there? Lets's imagine it's your son. He just broke his arm at school and he NEEDS his mommy NOW!!! How long would it take you to leave work and get you backside to him--minutes? Seconds maybe? Would you dawdle? Would you give him reasons why "you can't right now..."? 

Think about that a moment too. 

Kimmy, it's not that there has been no progress. There HAS been progress. Every single day he is making a choice to not come home that day. Every single day he is making a choice to not be with you. When a person deeply WANTS to be with another person, they find a way. I moved clear from Colorado to the west coast to be with my Dear Hubby! I figured out a way to make it work! And when a person deeply LOVES another person, they do not give them crumbs of love and string them along. I love you more than to treat you like that, and I'm not even your spouse! 

Have you ever heard that saying "He's just not that into you?" Well...that saying is true in this case. When a man loves a woman, he will move heaven and earth to spend time with her; he'll MAKE the time to call and email and text; he can not wait to touch her and be with her...and he doesn't put her off. 

So Kimmy, it's time to be honest with yourself. Tonight. I know you are HORRIBLY sad to hear this and I also know that some part of you knows it's true. He's just not that into you. Every day and every night he makes a choice. I was a cheater. I know the pile of poop he's gotten himself into! But at some point I made the choice to STOP...that day...and end it...and go back to my husband right then and there. He has made a choice too--the choice to stay gone. 

Soooo I'm sure you want to hear it or admit it or believe it's true, but there has been progress. He has chosen to not come home. He has chosen to see if you will settle for love crumbs while giving the feast of his love to someone else. I suggest that you mourn, and let the truth -- THE TRUTH -- sink in. Cry. 

And then, tell him that you love him and you don't see that stopping very soon, but that you are no longer willing to be some sex on the side. Tell him you want a man who is so head-over-heels in love with you that he can not wait to be with you and touch you and give you all of his feast of love. Tell him you are worth more than crumbs. And tell him that if he chooses to not come home, tonight, without delay or excuse, that you will mourn the death of your marriage but you will not be his "friend" and he will not be in your life AT ALL any longer. 

Kimmy this is not meant as an ultimatum. It's meant as a statement. The statement is a statement of your worth. You don't "deserve" anything--but as a kind, loving, smart, sexy woman, you can choose to accept crumbs and be a beggar, or you can choose to be a QUEEN and only accept the man in your life who is worthy of being your KING. Okay? Does that make sense? He is not acting like a man who is worthy of being your king or like a man who will treat you like a queen. 

Now...maybe he'll have to lose you in order to realize the queen he's lost. And it's up to you to decide. But if it were me, I would nip that idea in the bud about "... we need to divorce and then we can date... blahblahblah..." NO! No he can be a man and honor what is owed to you due to his PROMISE to you...or he will be out of your life entirely forever. It's just that simple.


----------



## kimmycat

Affaircare said:


> Hi Kimmy,
> 
> I don't want to discourage you, but I have a few fairly important questions to ask you that I think may ultimately make you kind of sad.
> 
> What is something you just LOVE to do? Got that answer in your head? Okay here's another quick one: Who is someone that you just LOVE to be with? I mean you *LOVE* it!! Got that answer in your head? Okay ... hold onto them a moment.
> 
> If I were to say to you: "Hey Kimmy! You know how you love to do XYZ? Well I know it's short notice but how you like to go do it together? You and me? And I'll pay for everything--all you have to do is come!" Give me a guess...how long would it take you to say "yes" and then make the arrangements necessary to come with me? Would it take a really long time, or would you say "yes" within moments and then make the arrangements right away? Would you put it off and keep making excuses? Or would you move heaven and earth to do this thing you LOVE for free?
> 
> Think about that a moment.
> 
> Now, let's switch to the someone you love. Let me ask you this: if that person whom you absolutely, utterly adore somehow communicated to you that the want you and need you to be with them...how long would it take you to get your behiney there? Lets's imagine it's your son. He just broke his arm at school and he NEEDS his mommy NOW!!! How long would it take you to leave work and get you backside to him--minutes? Seconds maybe? Would you dawdle? Would you give him reasons why "you can't right now..."?
> 
> Think about that a moment too.
> 
> Kimmy, it's not that there has been no progress. There HAS been progress. Every single day he is making a choice to not come home that day. Every single day he is making a choice to not be with you. When a person deeply WANTS to be with another person, they find a way. I moved clear from Colorado to the west coast to be with my Dear Hubby! I figured out a way to make it work! And when a person deeply LOVES another person, they do not give them crumbs of love and string them along. I love you more than to treat you like that, and I'm not even your spouse!
> 
> Have you ever heard that saying "He's just not that into you?" Well...that saying is true in this case. When a man loves a woman, he will move heaven and earth to spend time with her; he'll MAKE the time to call and email and text; he can not wait to touch her and be with her...and he doesn't put her off.
> 
> So Kimmy, it's time to be honest with yourself. Tonight. I know you are HORRIBLY sad to hear this and I also know that some part of you knows it's true. He's just not that into you. Every day and every night he makes a choice. I was a cheater. I know the pile of poop he's gotten himself into! But at some point I made the choice to STOP...that day...and end it...and go back to my husband right then and there. He has made a choice too--the choice to stay gone.
> 
> Soooo I'm sure you want to hear it or admit it or believe it's true, but there has been progress. He has chosen to not come home. He has chosen to see if you will settle for love crumbs while giving the feast of his love to someone else. I suggest that you mourn, and let the truth -- THE TRUTH -- sink in. Cry.
> 
> And then, tell him that you love him and you don't see that stopping very soon, but that you are no longer willing to be some sex on the side. Tell him you want a man who is so head-over-heels in love with you that he can not wait to be with you and touch you and give you all of his feast of love. Tell him you are worth more than crumbs. And tell him that if he chooses to not come home, tonight, without delay or excuse, that you will mourn the death of your marriage but you will not be his "friend" and he will not be in your life AT ALL any longer.
> 
> Kimmy this is not meant as an ultimatum. It's meant as a statement. The statement is a statement of your worth. You don't "deserve" anything--but as a kind, loving, smart, sexy woman, you can choose to accept crumbs and be a beggar, or you can choose to be a QUEEN and only accept the man in your life who is worthy of being your KING. Okay? Does that make sense? He is not acting like a man who is worthy of being your king or like a man who will treat you like a queen.
> 
> Now...maybe he'll have to lose you in order to realize the queen he's lost. And it's up to you to decide. But if it were me, I would nip that idea in the bud about "... we need to divorce and then we can date... blahblahblah..." NO! No he can be a man and honor what is owed to you due to his PROMISE to you...or he will be out of your life entirely forever. It's just that simple.


Yes...he still says he is AFRAID to come back...you are right...I deserve that kind of totally, head over heels kind of love that will not hesitate...I am very sad...I am going to tell him what you suggest....tomorrow, he gets the results and I will speak to him then...or this Saturday, when we have more time to talk...I will come back and review what you said and say it like that...not as an ultimatum but, as a statement and be ready to lose him because , really, I already have...I'm just accepting crumbs now...thank you for the hard truth...I know, in my heart and mind, that if he truly loves me, he would not divorce me or hesitate SO long...it will help me start to mourn instead of just hanging on and keeping the hurting fresh....


----------



## whitecat

Hi Kimmycat,

I am so late into this thread, but I have read most of your posts and I think I have a handle on how things have progressed for you.

Forgive my butting in, but this is my point of view for what it's worth.

It seems to me that your husband is very afraid to become vulnerable to you again. You have rejected him for four years, and during those years he had tried numerous times to get close to you but you shut him out. Finally, he just detached and decided he could not do it anymore and filed for divorce. It was then you realized that you wanted to save your marriage.

The thing is, he has already detached. He found someone else. 

I guess if it was me and I realized what a horrible mistake I had made, I would have thrown myself at him and grovelled and begged for him to take me back and I would have done anything in my power to try and convince him that I have seen the light and I am so sorry and I want to make everything right. I don't see anything wrong with showing my remorse. I don't see anything wrong with grovelling at this point. I don't see anything wrong with begging for forgiveness. I don't see anything wrong with showing him how it kills me to see him with someone new and how much pain I am in. I would insert myself into his life and I would follow him around and I would make him see how much I want him back. 

He has detached. He doesn't believe you have changed. He worries that you will reject him again. He tells you over and over again that he is scared that if he goes back to you it will be the same thing as before. You have to convince him that everything has changed and that you have changed. 

I don't think he really believes that you have changed. Why would he? Does he get that you understand the pain that he was in all those years, that eventually led him to divorce? It's okay to get raw and emotional and share your pain with him. He has to see it, otherwise he will never believe that you want him that badly.

I know grovelling and begging is seen as unseemly, pathetic, and for losers. But there is a place for it. And I think in your situation, it warrants it. The thing is, it may be too late. But what have you got to lose? You are fighting for your marriage. I say, do whatever it takes (nothing illegal or violent though  ).

It sounds like you love him very much, and it sounds like he still loves you very much (he's just scared! he's been burned and he's terrified of getting burned again). He needs reassurance and convincing and it's up to you to convince him, not through words but emotion. He needs to feel it.

From what you have written, I am not convinced that he has totally fallen out of love with you. I guess the romantic part of me is hoping things will work out for you.  Yeah, I'm rooting for you!


----------



## JJG

This story has made me really sad.

Im so sorry for all of the terrible advice you received throughout most of your thread . . . .

Please just protect yourself and don't give him anymore of yourself.


----------



## alte Dame

I've followed this for the months that it's been active & think that kimmy should keep a mature stance at this point.

She treated her H terribly for four long years and was OK with him detaching from her until it became apparent that he had found someone new, at which point she felt like she woke up to what she was losing.

He is now dealing with confused feelings about his stbxw and the OW, as well as a difficult illness.

Given what she has put him through over the last number of years, it's my opinion that she should offer him support, but not force it on him and she should let him find his own way through this difficult time for him.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

whitecat said:


> I guess if it was me and I realized what a horrible mistake I had made, I would have thrown myself at him and grovelled and begged for him to take me back and I would have done anything in my power to try and convince him that I have seen the light and I am so sorry and I want to make everything right. I don't see anything wrong with showing my remorse. I don't see anything wrong with grovelling at this point. I don't see anything wrong with begging for forgiveness. I don't see anything wrong with showing him how it kills me to see him with someone new and how much pain I am in. *I would insert myself into his life and I would follow him around and I would make him see how much I want him back.
> *
> I know grovelling and begging is seen as unseemly, pathetic, and for losers. But there is a place for it. And I think in your situation, it warrants it. The thing is, it may be too late. But what have you got to lose? You are fighting for your marriage. I say, do whatever it takes (nothing illegal or violent though  ).


 She has done this on many occasions. She has cried, let him sleep with her, gave him room, made him the priority, begs, grovelled and allowed him to have another woman in the marriage. All the while, she pines away hoping he'll come back. 

Oh and as a guy, the last thing I want is a stalker. Sorry, that's what it sounds like you just described.


----------



## karole

kimmycat said:


> Yes...he still says he is AFRAID to come back...you are right...I deserve that kind of totally, head over heels kind of love that will not hesitate...I am very sad...I am going to tell him what you suggest....tomorrow, he gets the results and I will speak to him then...or this Saturday, when we have more time to talk...I will come back and review what you said and say it like that...not as an ultimatum but, as a statement and be ready to lose him because , really, I already have...I'm just accepting crumbs now...thank you for the hard truth...I know, in my heart and mind, that if he truly loves me, he would not divorce me or hesitate SO long...it will help me start to mourn instead of just hanging on and keeping the hurting fresh....


Kimmy, for what it's worth, I agree this is the right thing to do.


----------



## PBear

Any money you're going to invest in a lawyer should go to YOUR lawyer, who will protect your best interests. You did get one to make sure the documents were fair to you, right? Other than that, he's the one that has the larger income (if I recall) and the one that wants the divorce. It's time to stand up for you. Tell him to take a flying leap on the financial side. He wanted to split things up. Well guess what, dude... There's some sacrifices to be made. He's had a good run as far as being separated before... Sex with you when he wanted, all sorts of perks at home... A bit of reality will be good for him. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## whitecat

phillybeffandswiss said:


> She has done this on many occasions. She has cried, let him sleep with her, gave him room, made him the priority, begs, grovelled and allowed him to have another woman in the marriage. All the while, she pines away hoping he'll come back.
> 
> Oh and as a guy, the last thing I want is a stalker. Sorry, that's what it sounds like you just described.


No, certainly not, I am not saying she should stalk him. I am trying to see things through his perspective. What was it like for him, for four years to have his wife shut him out, reject all his advances, make him feel like he is not wanted. That is a long time to try to win your wife over, is it not? He must have loved her a lot.

He felt rejected, she gave him lots of space bu shutting him out. Now that she wants him back, she should give him lots of space? Why? She has to make the overtures, make him feel like she really wants him. Insert herself into his life, I meant that she should be very interested in his life. I suppose I am saying she should be making some aggressive overtures to draw him back into her life and for her to be involved in his. But certainly she should respect him if he tells her a flat out "no". 

I personally do not think it was a good idea for her to have slept with him while he was with the other woman. It basically gave him permission to disrespect her. I am not saying she should throw herself on the floor and let him walk all over her. No, not at all!

When someone has wronged you. When someone has hurt you, you build up a wall around yourself to protect yourself from being hurt again. He has done that. I really don't see how it is helpful for Kimmy to build a wall around herself. Now we have two people who have built walls around themselves. How can there be any possibility of reconciliation?

She was the one who rejected him for so many years. She has to be the one to tear down those walls around him. He sees her as unsafe. She has to prove to him that she is safe. And she can do that by being vulnerable, by not putting up walls around herself, by allowing herself to be open and inviting. People put up facades to protect themselves, and pretend things they don't really feel or want. People think that being hurt is the worst thing in the world. Emotions are fleeting. Here is a couple, with a child. The course of three people's lives can change forever. I really don't think letting down your guard and taking a leap of faith and risking being hurt is such an awful thing. I think it's worth the risk if there's the slightest possibility it can save your marriage.


----------



## Affaircare

kimmycat said:


> Yes...he still says he is AFRAID to come back...you are right...I deserve that kind of totally, head over heels kind of love that will not hesitate...I am very sad...I am going to tell him what you suggest....tomorrow, he gets the results and I will speak to him then...or this Saturday, when we have more time to talk...I will come back and review what you said and say it like that...not as an ultimatum but, as a statement and be ready to lose him because , really, I already have...I'm just accepting crumbs now...thank you for the hard truth...I know, in my heart and mind, that if he truly loves me, he would not divorce me or hesitate SO long...it will help me start to mourn instead of just hanging on and keeping the hurting fresh....


Kimmy, 

I do understand that for years you turned him away...and you shut him down...and you participated in turning off his love for you. I realize you also may not be ready to divorce or give him a firm ultimatum. That's okay. As always, you get to choose! But I think if you let him know that not coming home IS choosing and that you realize now that you will no longer accept crumbs, that you can decide for yourself if you want to wait for him. 

See, what I'm saying her is not an angry "Pick her or me" because all that would show him is that you haven't changed. Nor am I say you act all "entitled" and he has to be your servant. Nope. The focus is more like a statement--you have chosen to stay out and I am not choosing to only accept love in my life that is the full feast--and also more like letting him see that what's he's had recently is not going to continue if this is the choice he makes. It's like giving him notice that this somewhat paradise he's living in is not what it's like "after divorce."

See when people cheat they often have the *CRAZY*, misguided idea that the BS will just be on the back burner, waiting for them and continuing to meet needs A, B and C while they have their fun and fling with the OP who meets needs D, E and F. The BS will be a built in babysitter. They can keep ALL of their own money and the OP's money too. They don't have to meet any of their obligations as a parent or spouse. They get everything, the BS gets nothing, and essentially the BS just steps aside and they insert the OP into their life except where they need the BS...in which case the BS just keeps giving. That is what's called "the fog" right there, because that is foggy thinking!!

The goal of this statement is to clear some of that fog. If he does choose to not come home (and that is what he is choosing right now) then you don't just wait on the back burner, you don't just continue meeting need A, B and C, you are not a built-in babysitter, he will be told by a court of law to meet his obligations to you and his child, and essentially you will become like a mailman to him--not part of his life. 

Make sense?


----------



## kimmycat

Affaircare said:


> Kimmy,
> 
> I do understand that for years you turned him away...and you shut him down...and you participated in turning off his love for you. I realize you also may not be ready to divorce or give him a firm ultimatum. That's okay. As always, you get to choose! But I think if you let him know that not coming home IS choosing and that you realize now that you will no longer accept crumbs, that you can decide for yourself if you want to wait for him.
> 
> See, what I'm saying her is not an angry "Pick her or me" because all that would show him is that you haven't changed. Nor am I say you act all "entitled" and he has to be your servant. Nope. The focus is more like a statement--you have chosen to stay out and I am not choosing to only accept love in my life that is the full feast--and also more like letting him see that what's he's had recently is not going to continue if this is the choice he makes. It's like giving him notice that this somewhat paradise he's living in is not what it's like "after divorce."
> 
> See when people cheat they often have the *CRAZY*, misguided idea that the BS will just be on the back burner, waiting for them and continuing to meet needs A, B and C while they have their fun and fling with the OP who meets needs D, E and F. The BS will be a built in babysitter. They can keep ALL of their own money and the OP's money too. They don't have to meet any of their obligations as a parent or spouse. They get everything, the BS gets nothing, and essentially the BS just steps aside and they insert the OP into their life except where they need the BS...in which case the BS just keeps giving. That is what's called "the fog" right there, because that is foggy thinking!!
> 
> The goal of this statement is to clear some of that fog. If he does choose to not come home (and that is what he is choosing right now) then you don't just wait on the back burner, you don't just continue meeting need A, B and C, you are not a built-in babysitter, he will be told by a court of law to meet his obligations to you and his child, and essentially you will become like a mailman to him--not part of his life.
> 
> Make sense?


Yes, it makes sense...I have been on the back burner and have been fulfilling needs and it is very hurtful...yes, he is. Not that into me, too...maybe, it is the fog and maybe, it is that he is going to realize he loves me and maybe, he has moved on and never coming back....

I am going to talk to him on Saturday...just make the statement like you said...thank you.


----------



## kimmycat

whitecat said:


> Hi Kimmycat,
> 
> I am so late into this thread, but I have read most of your posts and I think I have a handle on how things have progressed for you.
> 
> Forgive my butting in, but this is my point of view for what it's worth.
> 
> It seems to me that your husband is very afraid to become vulnerable to you again. You have rejected him for four years, and during those years he had tried numerous times to get close to you but you shut him out. Finally, he just detached and decided he could not do it anymore and filed for divorce. It was then you realized that you wanted to save your marriage.
> 
> The thing is, he has already detached. He found someone else.
> 
> I guess if it was me and I realized what a horrible mistake I had made, I would have thrown myself at him and grovelled and begged for him to take me back and I would have done anything in my power to try and convince him that I have seen the light and I am so sorry and I want to make everything right. I don't see anything wrong with showing my remorse. I don't see anything wrong with grovelling at this point. I don't see anything wrong with begging for forgiveness. I don't see anything wrong with showing him how it kills me to see him with someone new and how much pain I am in. I would insert myself into his life and I would follow him around and I would make him see how much I want him back.
> 
> He has detached. He doesn't believe you have changed. He worries that you will reject him again. He tells you over and over again that he is scared that if he goes back to you it will be the same thing as before. You have to convince him that everything has changed and that you have changed.
> 
> I don't think he really believes that you have changed. Why would he? Does he get that you understand the pain that he was in all those years, that eventually led him to divorce? It's okay to get raw and emotional and share your pain with him. He has to see it, otherwise he will never believe that you want him that badly.
> 
> I know grovelling and begging is seen as unseemly, pathetic, and for losers. But there is a place for it. And I think in your situation, it warrants it. The thing is, it may be too late. But what have you got to lose? You are fighting for your marriage. I say, do whatever it takes (nothing illegal or violent though  ).
> 
> It sounds like you love him very much, and it sounds like he still loves you very much (he's just scared! he's been burned and he's terrified of getting burned again). He needs reassurance and convincing and it's up to you to convince him, not through words but emotion. He needs to feel it.
> 
> From what you have written, I am not convinced that he has totally fallen out of love with you. I guess the romantic part of me is hoping things will work out for you.  Yeah, I'm rooting for you!


Thank you for your posts and your thoughts....I hope you are right and I am going to try my best to help him really know that I really have changed and he can be assured that I love him and will not reject him anymore if he returns...


----------



## kimmycat

alte Dame said:


> I've followed this for the months that it's been active & think that kimmy should keep a mature stance at this point.
> 
> She treated her H terribly for four long years and was OK with him detaching from her until it became apparent that he had found someone new, at which point she felt like she woke up to what she was losing.
> 
> He is now dealing with confused feelings about his stbxw and the OW, as well as a difficult illness.
> 
> Given what she has put him through over the last number of years, it's my opinion that she should offer him support, but not force it on him and she should let him find his own way through this difficult time for him.


I agree and am offering I'm support at this time...it is all I can do right now...he gets the results of his biopsy tomorrow morning...praying a lot...


----------



## kimmycat

JJG said:


> This story has made me really sad.
> 
> Im so sorry for all of the terrible advice you received throughout most of your thread . . . .
> 
> Please just protect yourself and don't give him anymore of yourself.


Yes, it is sad...I think I have gotten good advice...it just has not worked....

Trying to move on...trying to not let hope make me too sad....trying to hang on...


----------



## kimmycat

karole said:


> Kimmy, for what it's worth, I agree this is the right thing to do.


Thanks, Karole...sad but, true...I'll keep y'all updated...


----------



## kimmycat

PBear said:


> Any money you're going to invest in a lawyer should go to YOUR lawyer, who will protect your best interests. You did get one to make sure the documents were fair to you, right? Other than that, he's the one that has the larger income (if I recall) and the one that wants the divorce. It's time to stand up for you. Tell him to take a flying leap on the financial side. He wanted to split things up. Well guess what, dude... There's some sacrifices to be made. He's had a good run as far as being separated before... Sex with you when he wanted, all sorts of perks at home... A bit of reality will be good for him.
> 
> C
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We actually make equal pay...but, I agree and do not want to pay for half of his lawyer...I never got legal advice....


----------



## kimmycat

whitecat said:


> No, certainly not, I am not saying she should stalk him. I am trying to see things through his perspective. What was it like for him, for four years to have his wife shut him out, reject all his advances, make him feel like he is not wanted. That is a long time to try to win your wife over, is it not? He must have loved her a lot.
> 
> He felt rejected, she gave him lots of space bu shutting him out. Now that she wants him back, she should give him lots of space? Why? She has to make the overtures, make him feel like she really wants him. Insert herself into his life, I meant that she should be very interested in his life. I suppose I am saying she should be making some aggressive overtures to draw him back into her life and for her to be involved in his. But certainly she should respect him if he tells her a flat out "no".
> 
> I personally do not think it was a good idea for her to have slept with him while he was with the other woman. It basically gave him permission to disrespect her. I am not saying she should throw herself on the floor and let him walk all over her. No, not at all!
> 
> When someone has wronged you. When someone has hurt you, you build up a wall around yourself to protect yourself from being hurt again. He has done that. I really don't see how it is helpful for Kimmy to build a wall around herself. Now we have two people who have built walls around themselves. How can there be any possibility of reconciliation?
> 
> She was the one who rejected him for so many years. She has to be the one to tear down those walls around him. He sees her as unsafe. She has to prove to him that she is safe. And she can do that by being vulnerable, by not putting up walls around herself, by allowing herself to be open and inviting. People put up facades to protect themselves, and pretend things they don't really feel or want. People think that being hurt is the worst thing in the world. Emotions are fleeting. Here is a couple, with a child. The course of three people's lives can change forever. I really don't think letting down your guard and taking a leap of faith and risking being hurt is such an awful thing. I think it's worth the risk if there's the slightest possibility it can save your marriage.


Thank you for your thoughts...they do make me feel better and worse at the same time since it reminds me about the 4 long years.............


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

whitecat said:


> No, certainly not, I am not saying she should stalk him. I am trying to see things through his perspective. What was it like for him, for four years to have his wife shut him out, reject all his advances, make him feel like he is not wanted. That is a long time to try to win your wife over, is it not? He must have loved her a lot.
> 
> He felt rejected, she gave him lots of space bu shutting him out. Now that she wants him back, she should give him lots of space? Why? She has to make the overtures, make him feel like she really wants him. Insert herself into his life, I meant that she should be very interested in his life. I suppose I am saying she should be making some aggressive overtures to draw him back into her life and for her to be involved in his. But certainly she should respect him if he tells her a flat out "no".
> 
> I personally do not think it was a good idea for her to have slept with him while he was with the other woman. It basically gave him permission to disrespect her. I am not saying she should throw herself on the floor and let him walk all over her. No, not at all!
> 
> When someone has wronged you. When someone has hurt you, you build up a wall around yourself to protect yourself from being hurt again. He has done that. I really don't see how it is helpful for Kimmy to build a wall around herself. Now we have two people who have built walls around themselves. How can there be any possibility of reconciliation?
> 
> She was the one who rejected him for so many years. She has to be the one to tear down those walls around him. He sees her as unsafe. She has to prove to him that she is safe. And she can do that by being vulnerable, by not putting up walls around herself, by allowing herself to be open and inviting. People put up facades to protect themselves, and pretend things they don't really feel or want. People think that being hurt is the worst thing in the world. Emotions are fleeting. Here is a couple, with a child. The course of three people's lives can change forever. I really don't think letting down your guard and taking a leap of faith and risking being hurt is such an awful thing. I think it's worth the risk if there's the slightest possibility it can save your marriage.


This post makes more sense. I don't fully agree, but I understand this perspective better.



> See when people cheat they often have the CRAZY, misguided idea that the BS will just be on the back burner, waiting for them and continuing to meet needs A, B and C while they have their fun and fling with the OP who meets needs D, E and F. The BS will be a built in babysitter. They can keep ALL of their own money and the OP's money too. They don't have to meet any of their obligations as a parent or spouse. They get everything, the BS gets nothing, and essentially the BS just steps aside and they insert the OP into their life except where they need the BS...in which case the BS just keeps giving. That is what's called "the fog" right there, because that is foggy thinking!!


This is the best description of "cake eating" I have seen in a year.


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## lenzi

kimmycat said:


> Yes, it is sad...I think I have gotten good advice...it just has not worked....
> 
> Trying to move on...trying to not let hope make me too sad....trying to hang on...


It hasn't worked because when one person wants out of a relationship, there IS no strategy to convince/manipulate/alter their emotions and thought patterns.

The ONLY thing you can do is let them go, give them their space, move on with your life, and "sometimes" they have second thoughts when they suddenly realize they miss you and they might be making a mistake.

Your strategy- which makes you nothing more than a doormat, being there for him when and if he wants, you while he's still having sex and sleeping with the other woman, is a guarantee for failure. In fact you HAVE received many posts advising you of this, but you have chosen to go the "breadcrumbs" route as you so aptly put it.

Now, it's late in the game, you've lost a good chunk of self esteem and a few months of your life, but it appears you are ready to face reality and finally let him go.

The sooner the better. Life is short, ya know?


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## whitecat

kimmycat said:


> Thank you for your thoughts...they do make me feel better and worse at the same time since it reminds me about the 4 long years.............


I guess I feel encouraged that he strove to win you back and draw you to himself for those four years. That tells me that he was so patient and loved you so much. It is so painful to feel rejection and in order to protect himself he had to withdraw and detach, which he did. But the way you described your interactions the past few months seemed to indicate that he was conflicted and he kept telling you that he loves you. It is not over for him.

It is a powerful pull to know that someone has left their home, friends, family, everything to be with you. This is what the OW has given him. It will take something even stronger to pull him away from that. You have had 10 years of history with him. You have a son with him. You have had six good years with him. You do have some leverage. But it is his fear that you will reject him after he gives up the OW that has kept him from going back to you. 

If he is an abusive man, if he has cheated on you because he is selfish, then my response would be different. I would be telling you to let him go and good riddance! But you drove him away, and now you have changed your mind. You have to be the one to draw him back to you.

I understand why you slept with him. And it fills me with compassion for you because you were hurting and lost and wanted him again. You can still maintain your self-respect and your dignity and still let him know how you want him back so badly without compromising your principles. 

We all make mistakes. We all hurt. You were hurting for those four years and your way with dealing with it was to shut him out. He was hurting too. And you succeeded in driving him away. I do not believe it is too late for you. I may be wrong, but I think you have a good chance to win him back. I don't think it is a sign of weakness to fight for something good in your life. 

If he is still willing to dialogue with you, you can ask him,"what will it take for you to trust me with your heart again, I will do anything". He may say, "nothing". But you can try and ask. At the least it will show him what your intentions are.

It's good to prepare for the worst. But he has tried to win you over for four years. I personally would not give up after a couple months. Yes, it may be too late and please be prepared for that. But it's not over until it's over. You had a very precious thing and it's worth fighting for it.

Most advice here has been telling you to back off and give him space. I think this advice would work for couples dealing with the run-of-the-mill type of infidelity. But in your case I believe it is the worst thing you can do. You see, he left you in the first place because you had backed off and given him space. You have to do the opposite to get him back. 

Much strength and courage you to you.


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## turnera

Talking is fine. Giving him sex while he screws another woman isn't.


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## WorkingOnMe

I don't think asking him what you can do is a good idea. From my perspective if you ask and then do what he says, it doesn't count. It has to come from you. Btw, it couldn't hurt to leave a copy of the surrendered wife on the table in the living room for him to notice.


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## kimmycat

Biopsy results came in today...NEGATIVE!!!!!! He just has to have nodes checked every 6 months....he called me this morning at work with the news...so relieved....so thankful and grateful...


Thank you to all of your for your prayers and to those of you that commented today...

Just ordered The Surrendered Wife...


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## karole

Glad he's okay Kimmy.


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## kimmycat

karole said:


> Glad he's okay Kimmy.


Thank you, Karole...


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## Affaircare

TEST RESULTS NEGATIVE!!


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## kimmycat

Affaircare said:


> TEST RESULTS NEGATIVE!!


Thank you for the pic!


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## karole

Did you have the talk with your husband Kimmy?


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## Mzflower

Hi Kimmy,

Checking up on you..is everything okay?


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## karole

How are you doing Kimmy?


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## kimmycat

My H came home on 11/11. It was the greatest day of my life. Now, we are sooooo happy and I thank God every day! I found rejoice marriage ministries and recommend it to everyone! God bless all of you and those of you who gave advice, thank you from the bottom of my heart. I stopped posting because I found rejoice marriage ministries and it helped me learn to pray for the restoration of our marriage and God is great.

My family could not be happier and blessed...


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## Mzflower

Kimmy,

Couldnt be happier for you! Enjoy every second with eachother!

Xo


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## Aerith

kimmycat said:


> My H came home on 11/11. It was the greatest day of my life. Now, we are sooooo happy and I thank God every day! I found rejoice marriage ministries and recommend it to everyone! God bless all of you and those of you who gave advice, thank you from the bottom of my heart. I stopped posting because I found rejoice marriage ministries and it helped me learn to pray for the restoration of our marriage and God is great.
> 
> My family could not be happier and blessed...


Hi Kimmy,

That's fantastic news!!! So happy for you :smthumbup:

Wish you and your husband all happiness in the world!!!


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## PBear

So now the big question is (and I don't mean to rain on your parade) what are you guys doing to heal your relationship?

C


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## Acabado

kimmycat said:


> My H came home on 11/11. It was the greatest day of my life. Now, we are sooooo happy and I thank God every day! I found rejoice marriage ministries and recommend it to everyone! God bless all of you and those of you who gave advice, thank you from the bottom of my heart. I stopped posting because I found rejoice marriage ministries and it helped me learn to pray for the restoration of our marriage and God is great.
> 
> My family could not be happier and blessed...


WOW What a turn around!
I'd love to read who did happened since the last time you posted..
Congratulations kimmycat.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Happy for you. Make sure you keep working on things so this doesn't happen again.


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## turnera

So who changed direction? Who gave in and accepted the other person's stance?


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## lenzi

Watch out for the so called " second honeymoon phase" that follows a breakup. 

The makeup sex is great, and everything seems spectacular, maybe as good as if not better than when you first met, but it doesn't last long if the problems that led to the original breakup aren't fixed.


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