# Recently married and waited for marriage to have sex. After wedding no sex



## open351 (Aug 24, 2017)

** I'm 42 and she is 41- No health issues for us both. 

Hi, I'm recently married in May of this year. i'm American Caucasian and my wife is Chinese Indonesian.

We met online and I traveled twice to Indonesia to spend time with her before we decided to bring her here to the USA.

During our admitted brief times together she made it clear that she wanted to wait for marriage to have sex and I was OK with that. However In hindsight I should have been hesitant from that point on.

Fast forward to her arrival and our marriage. Once she arrived and we finally said I DO, I gently began the conversations of sex and this is when I found out that I was duped in a way.

She basically does not like sex and has a take it or leave it mindset regarding it. Basically she is OK going through life without sex at all. She will have sex with me "however" only if i initiate it and if i don't then we just do nothing. We kiss, hold hands, cuddle but no sex of any kind.

To make matters worse and this part really irks me is that she feels that birth control is a mans responsibility and that she is to do nothing regarding that. When I brought up getting her on BC she immediately shot it down due to the potential for health reasons etc (Which I understand to a point). After a lengthy discussion I dropped the BC subject as I deemed it unwinnable and I didn't want to pursue it any further.

So this is what I'm left with, recently married, immediate sexless marriage and a wife who feels that sex is unnecessary. 

I recently asked her what her ideal sex was and this is what she said "We kiss, do penetration and then kiss and then go to sleep" - That was her definition of what she wants!! LOL Its sounds like a mans description. 

Note: Her thoughts on sex do stem from self esteem. Her ex husband told her she was bad in sex and she feels shes bad at sex etc. I realize as her husband that I should try my best to boost her up in this area but she feels that such efforts are pointless. Basically she has relegated herself to the fact that in her mind sex is irrelevant to her existence however she feels a marriage without sex can be sustained. This I fundamentally disagree with.

I'm looking for advice on whether or not this marriage is even worth staying in. I don't want to cheat on her but I also do not want to go forever without sex. That is my dilemma.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I don't think the problem is that you didn't have sex before marriage, as many couples I know didn't (including me and my husband ) and we have a good sex life. I think the issue is that you didn't get to know her well enough before marriage, (only meeting her twice before marriage is madness) and clearly didn't properly discuss things like sex or get to know what makes her tick.Being that she had been married before she should have been honest about what happened in that marriage which must have hurt her a lot. 
This is also one of the pitfalls of a long distance relationship when you can't get to know someone properly, and is one of the reasons that I wouldn't have one. 

However, you say that you only have sex if you initiate, so initiate. Lots of husbands initiate far more than their wives.

I think you need to make it clear that sex is very important for a marriage, and that you aren't prepared to go without it. See if she is prepared to make that effort or get help to save the marriage.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Wow, you must've been seriously desperate to get duped like that by a 41 year old. I mean seriously, what kind of 41-year-old who enjoys sex insists on waiting until marriage? my advice would be to dump as soon as possible this will never ever get better. 


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Wow, you must've been seriously desperate to get duped like that by a 41 year old. I mean seriously, what kind of 41-year-old who enjoys sex insists on waiting until marriage? my advice would be to dump as soon as possible this will never ever get better.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


We did, and many other couples do.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

She is a grown assed women. She is forty-one years old.

She knew better. She has duped you. Bait and switch.

You have been had.

You rolled the dice....got snake-eyes....and lost.

Sorry. 

Consider an annulment or divorce...soon.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You got played. Quit being a doormat and get an annulment


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

You seriously got sold a bill of goods...if you have to ask the question you already know the answer....tell her to pound sand. But I promise you when push comes to shoving her out the door she will cave in but only for a while....Cut your losses...you can certainly clam that you were duped. 

Please do not stay...every day you stay will make it that much harder to leave.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

I can't imagine ever being naive enough to bring any woman from the third world to the first world, who I had only met twice in person sans sex, following finding them online in order to be married to them.

Honestly @open351 none of this should surprise you.

That said having chosen this mess, you would still do well to end it.


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## open351 (Aug 24, 2017)

Lostinthought61 said:


> You seriously got sold a bill of goods...if you have to ask the question you already know the answer....tell her to pound sand. But I promise you when push comes to shoving her out the door she will cave in but only for a while....Cut your losses...you can certainly clam that you were duped.
> 
> Please do not stay...every day you stay will make it that much harder to leave.


I think I should have explained myself better. I do love her and she loves me. She never has said she wont have sex with me at any point, however her views on sex are nil given that she has had such bad experiences that its just taken a back seat in her life. In all other areas of our marriage we are happy however sex which is important is just a rather complicated subject for her. I know that at a point I may be forced to make a rather definitive decision on whether to stay or go however Id like to see if maybe some other form of resolution is possible or advice is available before I throw in the towel here. 

Thanks :slap:


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

open351 said:


> I think I should have explained myself better. I do love her and she loves me. She never has said she wont have sex with me at any point, however her views on sex are nil given that she has had such bad experiences that its just taken a back seat in her life. In all other areas of our marriage we are happy however sex which is important is just a rather complicated subject for her. I know that at a point I may be forced to make a rather definitive decision on whether to stay or go however Id like to see if maybe some other form of resolution is possible or advice is available before I throw in the towel here.
> 
> Thanks :slap:


I think your in denial, but it is after all your life....keep hope alive


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Even if you're not having sex before marriage, talking about what she liked and didn't like and birth control and expectations before marriage is still needed. 

Sounds like she's drawn her line in the sand. You can either accept it or leave. 
You could ask her what can be done to make it better for both of you (cause that's not fun for her either) but I'm guessing she won't be too receptive. 

I would suggest making sure conversations included making things better for both and not just you getting better sex (better received that way) but she's very clear about things and doesn't sound open to finding out how to enjoy sex. If she doesn't care, she's not going to change.


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## cc48kel (Apr 5, 2017)

I really don't see it getting better at all... But try taking her to a sex therapist and see if that helps.. And yes, if she makes any effort you will have to reassure her that it's the best!! BC-- if you don't want kids getting 'snipped' isn't a bad thing.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> We did, and many other couples do.




I've heard your description of your sex life. Not impressed. 


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

Send her back. Seriouslly, you made a poor decision to marry someone you didn't know and got scammed.

You need to man up. Tell her you will do this and I'll do this, every night for the next 20 years, or go back to your crappy country. If she doesn't do it, you immediately detach, start dating other women and get the process rolling for a divorce. Don't wimp out. You're way too young to not be getting laid almost every night.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

I hate to say it, OP, but it sounds like your wife took advantage of your kind nature. She knew that no man--especially not a western man--would marry her if she said she had no interest in sex, but would essentially do it out of obligation.

You say that you love her, but how can you love someone who hid her true nature from you? If you knew this out of the gate, would you have continued to consider her seriously as a potential partner? This would be a deal breaker for most people.

It is unlikely that she will ever change in this respect. She will have sex with you out of obligation, but I don't think that she will ever be enthusiastic or enjoy it. And I think that will eventually wear you down and make you miserable, even if you do love her.

Just because you love her doesn't mean that she is a good partner for you. And she has shown that she is not a good partner for you.

Sadly, I think the best option for you is an anullment. She misrepresented herself to you, and the marriage hasn't been consumated, so you should be able to get an annulment easily. I know it's not what you want, but ending this now is better than a lifetime of unfulfilled needs and resentment towards your wife.

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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> She is a grown assed women. She is forty-one years old.
> 
> She knew better. She has duped you. Bait and switch.
> 
> ...


 if you have had sex you cant have an annulment.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

WorkingOnMe said:


> I've heard your description of your sex life. Not impressed.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 You know nothing about our sex life. Its great, varied and regular (twice in the last 3 days for example), and for a couple aged 60 and 61 that's pretty good. We both love having sex with each other. :smile2:


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> I hate to say it, OP, but it sounds like your wife took advantage of your kind nature. She knew that no man--especially not a western man--would marry her if she said she had no interest in sex, but would essentially do it out of obligation.
> 
> You say that you love her, but how can you love someone who hid her true nature from you? If you knew this out of the gate, would you have continued to consider her seriously as a potential partner? This would be a deal breaker for most people.
> 
> ...


He said 'She will have sex with me "however" only if i initiate it and if i don't then we just do nothing.


He said that it doesn't happen unless he initiates.Therefore it does happen if he does.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

This is a question for the op and please don't get offended. 
Are you good at sex?
You seem to have gone a long time without it so maybe you are out of practice. 
What I would do in your situation is make it my business to make sure my wife had the greatest sex I am capable of providing every night for at least a couple of months and if she hasn't shown any improvement start separating.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

open351 said:


> Id like to see if maybe some other form of resolution is possible or advice is available before I throw in the towel here.


A solution is highly unlikely. This and similar sites are full of threads about sexless marriages with no solutions, although they usually start out having some good sex before it dies. You have nothing to build on, nothing to return to, and no idea of a possible baseline in terms of quality or quantity. I strongly urge you to end this quickly, and learn from the experience for when you are ready to pursue a new relationship.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Get yourself to a good family lawyer and have them file for an immediate annulment!*


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The deceit below would justify an annulment. Wanting to wait til married is fine. Leaving out the - I don't like sex - part is a huge lie of omission. 

Also at the end of two years the OP will be on the hook to financially support her open ended. That's how it works when you use marriage to skip the standard immigration process. 

As to her loving him - well - I kind of question that. You don't deceive someone you love like this. 


*She basically does not like sex and has a take it or leave it mindset regarding it. Basically she is OK going through life without sex at all. She will have sex with me "however" only if i initiate it and if i don't then we just do nothing. We kiss, hold hands, cuddle but no sex of any kind.*







Diana7 said:


> He said 'She will have sex with me "however" only if i initiate it and if i don't then we just do nothing.
> 
> 
> He said that it doesn't happen unless he initiates.Therefore it does happen if he does.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Some of this advice is harsh, but for good reason.

That said, I'd give this a chance.

For starters, she won't _not_ have sex with you - that's good. There's something to build upon, there.

Right off the bat, this is almost assuredly a confidence issue for her. Her ex husband told her she's bad at sex. Yikes. Given that she's Indonesian (I spent some time there, I know the culture) it's highly likely her ex-husband is the only experience she's had. So in all probability, she's probably not "bad" at sex, she's just inexperienced.

Couple that inexperience with some a-hole telling her she sucks at it, and what do you get? Someone who has zero confidence.

As her husband, it's up to you to build her confidence - with her help, of course.

Sex is learned. It's not something that somebody is "good" at innately. I've never pole vaulted before, and it's improbable that my first time out, I'd be leaping over that bar. Let's say I go out and try pole vaulting for the first time, nobody really shows me what to do, exactly, and I fall flat on my face. Now imagine I pick myself up, try again a few more times - same result. Then get told that I'm terrible at it.

Do you think I'm going to want to try it again after that? Maybe, maybe not. Not everybody has the same personality. Not everybody will pick themselves up and say "I'll show them!". So your wife is not one of those people.

But she can be, with patience, confidence, and encouragement.

The better you get at something, the more fun it tends to be.

And you already have a head start, OP. Your wife WILL have sex with you. So teach her, guide her, build her confidence. Don't pressure her, or tell her what to do, or how to do it - guide her gently. Read her cues, go slowly, and make it a loving, intimate thing to do - not a quick bang. Work with her. She needs to be able to learn to trust you in the bedroom. She trusts you outside of it, clearly, but her past experience with sex was negative and ego-destroying.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Have you ever had sex with her?


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> if you have had sex you cant have an annulment.


Yes, you are "legally" correct.

In reality:

He had sex......she just laid there, thinking about what to make for lunch.
............................................................................................................

At times like these.....I think of tattoos.

Before marriage, you would be required to go the nearest "friendly" Tatoo Parlor.

You would whisper a number in the tatooists ear....

You would then lie on your belly on a full-length bench. 

a. The tatooist would pull the men's slacks and underwear.....down. Expose the butt. 
b. Women would lay down on their stomach and pull up their skirt, the tatooist would would then pull their panties down and expose "only" the butt.

On both men and women, the tatooist would "ink on" the number whispered in his/her ear.

Both men and women would readjust their clothing, pay the tatooist and leave.

The number inked on their butts would be a number from one to ten. 

One....for, I absolutely hate sex. I do not even want children, I hate sex so much.
Ten....for, I love sex. I want sex multiple times a day. Until I collapse in ecstasy.

Then, when a man dates a women a few times and both take a "shine" to each other, one of the two will whisper in the other's ear and say:

*I'll show you My number......if you show me Your's.*

Problem solved. In the "end", each will "end" up with a close, nice round number on each of their nice round sound butts. A compatible number. 



.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Her green card is at risk if the marriage ends. 

She is tolerating sex because she is under serious financial duress for the first two years in the US. After that - he will be legally obligated to support her because he signed a bunch of papers saying so - as part of marrying a foreign national. It is kind of like life time alimony - kicks in after two years. Just saying it is a high risk situation.




alexm said:


> Some of this advice is harsh, but for good reason.
> 
> That said, I'd give this a chance.
> 
> ...


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

You have been duped. Now, you have only one choice: Tell her that she duped you, and you married under false pretenses. Therefore, you consider the marriage invalid. Then hand her a plane ticket home, and send her on her way. How do you expect the next 25 years to go? Sexless? Not me, brother. Pack her carefully in the original wrapping and mark it "Return to Sender"


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Lostinthought61 said:


> You seriously got sold a bill of goods...if you have to ask the question you already know the answer....tell her to pound sand. But I promise you when push comes to shoving her out the door she will cave in but only for a while....Cut your losses...you can certainly clam that you were duped.
> 
> Please do not stay...every day you stay will make it that much harder to leave.


Yes.

Divorce is the answer.
............................................................................................

If you stay, you must lay out your needs, your' demands; "the rules" of the new ongoing marriage.

Yes, once you lay down the new law, the new rules of sexual engagement, telling her she must lay down in bed more frequently.....she will "up the frequency". 

She might add more "smiles" in the mix. Maybe a groan, maybe grabbing your butt and pulling it tighter.
.............................................................................................

And once she gains another "foot hold" [maybe citizenship?] she will dump you for another and new Schlub.

She will go for a "Low Desire" drone. Low D, with a short to medium, flaccid, im-passionate D. 

Ah, he must be a good earning Track Star.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Tough situation. I see 3 possible situations:

1). She had bad sexual experiences in the past and doesn't even realize that sex can be enjoyable for women. She feels that lying there and letting you pound her is a perfectly normal sex life. Maybe working with a sex therapist if she could lean to enjoy sex, you might end up with a good sex life. 

2). She is naturally low desire. Has never enjoyed sex, and never will. Not really her fault, but unlikely to ever improve. 

3). She deliberately tricked you in order to get married. In this case her aversion to sex must be very strong since normally in a bait / switch like that the woman would have frequent enthusiastic sex in order to trap a husband, then it would stop after the wedding night.


Maybe try asking her if she is willing to try to learn to enjoy sex. If she says no, then divorce.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Consult a lawyer that has experience with international marriages and mail order brides.

This is a scam that preys on naive, desperate and vulnerable men with very little relationship or sexual experience so that these people can get into the country.

There may be actual fraud involved her so find out your rights.

And under no circumstances get her pregnant!!!!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

open351 said:


> I'm looking for advice on whether or not this marriage is even worth staying in. I don't want to cheat on her but I also do not want to go forever without sex. That is my dilemma.


If you set your problems with sex aside, you need to acknowledge the fact that she has likely sacrificed a lifetime living in her culture, speaking her native language, eating indigenous foods she grew up with, and may hardly ever see her parents again in order to be with you. Everyday she wakes up, these sacrifices are very real and may feel overwhelming to her. She will need to know that you love and care for her as a person, and did not bring her to live with you just for sex.

Considering how far she is willing to go for you, it is important that you should try to meet her at least half way and show her that you can try do the same for her by being patient and caring. If you manage to do that respectfully and with meaningfully not only will your marriage be worth fighting for, but you will be amazed of what the two of you are capable of doing together. 

Badsanta


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MEM2020 said:


> The deceit below would justify an annulment. Wanting to wait til married is fine. Leaving out the - I don't like sex - part is a huge lie of omission.
> 
> Also at the end of two years the OP will be on the hook to financially support her open ended. That's how it works when you use marriage to skip the standard immigration process.
> 
> ...


If they have had sex and continue to have sex when he initiates, they won't qualify for a legal annulment.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> He said 'She will have sex with me "however" only if i initiate it and if i don't then we just do nothing.
> 
> 
> He said that it doesn't happen unless he initiates.Therefore it does happen if he does.


I stand corrected. I misread the initial post; when he said he was a sexless marriage, I took that to mean they had never consumated the marriage.

I still stand by the rest of my post, and think he has grounds for an annulment.

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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

MEM2020 said:


> Her green card is at risk if the marriage ends.
> 
> She is tolerating sex because she is under serious financial duress for the first two years in the US. After that - he will be legally obligated to support her because he signed a bunch of papers saying so - as part of marrying a foreign national. It is kind of like life time alimony - kicks in after two years. Just saying it is a high risk situation.


Perhaps.

Perhaps it's exactly what I said.

Remember, this is coming from the OP, not from her. This is what he sees, what he's experiencing. Of course he doesn't want this to be a "scam" (as others have said) or a way into the country.

It's worth noting that this woman is 41, or whatever. I find it hard to imagine a person of that age would go to such lengths to leave a country which is not, in fact, "third world" (again, as someone else said) and leave family and friends behind, ostensibly forever. Maybe she has a reason, who knows.

Any of that is plausible, of course. I just hesitate to put that stamp on it so quickly - as many here have done. Divorce! It's a scam! It's bait and switch! I'm surprised someone hasn't brought up the possible terrorist angle yet. Because, you know, Indonesia has the largest Muslim population of any country in the world.

Like, OMG, what if she's just not experienced and needs a patient, loving teacher?

OP has less than 2 years to find out. At least give him that before you all deport her 

And @badsanta brought up a very valid point. Not sure if the OP himself, let alone any of you, have taken any of that into consideration.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

sucker! get the marriage annulled, and send her packing back to wherever she came from. She lied to you just to get a green card.


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## open351 (Aug 24, 2017)

alexm said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> Perhaps it's exactly what I said.
> 
> ...


Actually this post was SPOT ON! My wife did give up everything. A good job in accounting, friends, a nice apartment etc to come here. She was not poor and just looking for a Bule to run off to America with. She lived in a nice area in Kelapa Gading in Jakarta which is not a poor area at all. Her issues with sex are purely linked to her lack of experience (which you also called out correctly in your first post) and her low self esteem stemming from her ex husband and one prior experience before him. She has had only 4 sex partners in her 41 years with her ex hubby and myself being the only ones that remained in her life for longer than say a day or few weeks etc.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

open351 said:


> I think I should have explained myself better. I do love her and she loves me. She never has said she wont have sex with me at any point, however her views on sex are nil given that she has had such bad experiences that its just taken a back seat in her life. In all other areas of our marriage we are happy however sex which is important is just a rather complicated subject for her. I know that at a point I may be forced to make a rather definitive decision on whether to stay or go however Id like to see if maybe some other form of resolution is possible or advice is available before I throw in the towel here.
> 
> Thanks :slap:


And did she explain ALL these complications BEFORE she came over or AFTER?


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

open351 said:


> I think I should have explained myself better. I do love her and she loves me. She never has said she wont have sex with me at any point, however her views on sex are nil given that she has had such bad experiences that its just taken a back seat in her life. In all other areas of our marriage we are happy however sex which is important is just a rather complicated subject for her. I know that at a point I may be forced to make a rather definitive decision on whether to stay or go however Id like to see if maybe some other form of resolution is possible or advice is available before I throw in the towel here.
> 
> Thanks :slap:


Why are you slapping your head?

You were told to wait until after marriage for sex. Sex is not some small thing, it's an integral part of a relationship one of which you were promised in good faith and now you've come to find out she was not truthful about it at all.

Forget about third world country, as people have pointed out you and her are grown folk, had this been long distance in the same country it's still the same thing, a lie is a lie is a lie. That's the foundation of your marriage, if there was truly love then all of this would have honestly come out much earlier, not sold to you virtuously as wait until we're married.

Now you're on the other side posting on forums instead of enjoying a healthy union.

:slap:


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> I stand corrected. I misread the initial post; when he said he was a sexless marriage, I took that to mean they had never consumated the marriage.
> 
> I still stand by the rest of my post, and think he has grounds for an annulment.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Under what grounds? They clearly have had sex.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

One thing I think most people are forgetting is that marriage is not "due to love" in all cultures. I cannot speak for Indonesian culture specifically because I'm not knowledgeable, but many, MANY cultures consider marriage more like an arrangement between two adults to live together, produce income, and provide a stable environment in which to raise a family or build a future. NONE of that necessitates "affection" or "romance." In her head, it may be that she agreed to marry a man with whom she gets along well enough, who contributes to providing to a degree that she finds acceptable, and with whom she could see creating a home and future. Again...none of that requires feelings or sex for pleasure by necessity. 

Here in the USA, I believe people think "getting married=agreeing to sex for pleasure" as if that's a given. But even in the current times, I believe there are cultures that think of marriage as a business arrangement where the wife gains a certain position, and think of sex for pleasure as something a man would do with a mistress where the mistress doesn't gain any position...it's just feelings and romance and pleasure. 

Thus, I'm just guessing that OP thought "OOOO if we get married that means she'll have sex with me and we will both like it!" and maybe thought of things like "marriage means moral sex for pleasure and for maybe making a family" etc. Meanwhile OP's wife may have been thinking something like "This is an arrangement that suits me and I agree to it" and thus considered sex to be something that doesn't necessarily have to happen--it's optional. 

If it were me, rather than just ditching the marriage, I'd consider that I did make a vow to spend my life acting in a loving way ... and I'd consider just finding out more what her deeper views are, and if there maybe just was a huge mismatch of expectation due to differing cultural values of what marriage means. Meanwhile, I'd be slow but purposeful and teach her how to relax and enjoy physical pleasure, how to be present during sex, how to reciprocate, and how to join in the fun. If all the rest is so wonderful, and if you two are in your early 40's that suggests you may have 40 years together total before one of you passes--so wouldn't it be worth it to invest a year or two to work together on this issue? Seems to me like it would be!


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Under what grounds? They clearly have had sex.


The grounds differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but they commonly include incest, bigamy, mental incapacity (including being drunk), legal incapacity (too young) duress, and fraud. The OP may have a shot at the latter, I don't know, but having sex has no bearing on these various grounds that I'm aware of.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

alexm said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> Perhaps it's exactly what I said.
> 
> ...


I agree. OP has a wife that doesn't seem to enjoy sex, but is willing when he initiates. From that information, many here suddenly become experts in south Asian cultures. Truth is, none of us have any idea about what her intentions were. None of us have a sense of how she interacts with him.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Talker67 said:


> sucker! get the marriage annulled, and send her packing back to wherever she came from. She lied to you just to get a green card.


Your reply is to call the OP a "sucker" ?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

OP:

You're unhappy with a woman who doesn't like sex with you, right?
You're newly married, right?

Regardless of where she is from, here's the thing:

You are unhappy with the situation. In my meager experience, when you are first with a woman who loves you, the sex is great. You are just getting to know one another, and your bodies are new and should be pretty exciting to one another. 
This is not the case with you and your wife. She doesn't want sex now------- it's not something that gets better.
In the world of rainbows and unicorns, yes, this is something you both can work on and improve. However, in reality, she has told you that what she WANTS is to kiss, penetration, and kiss and go to sleep. 

She TOLD you the truth. Sex isn't something that will ever be exciting or fun to her. She doesn't even WANT it to be. 

Then, you add the foreign stuff, the green card, the lack of really knowing her at all (only met her twice???).........

Let's just go ahead and accept that this is never going to be what you really want in a relationship, and that the longer you stay, the deeper in poo you will sink.

You can't fix this. Because she doesn't WANT a fun and exciting sexual relationship. And yes, based on what you've described, when 2 years is up, you will be in a sexless relationship. Why? Because people don't do what they don't WANT to do, when they don't have to.

Just my opinion.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

GTdad said:


> The grounds differ from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but they commonly include incest, bigamy, mental incapacity (including being drunk), legal incapacity (too young) duress, and fraud. The OP may have a shot at the latter, I don't know, but having sex has no bearing on these various grounds that I'm aware of.


I was thinking the fraud thing. Misrepresenting one's true self is fraudulent, which I think could be argued in this case.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Can This Marriage be Annulled? - Lawyers.com

Fraud seems to be the best chance for annulment, but even that can be hard to prove.


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## open351 (Aug 24, 2017)

I'm actually in law school and an annulment is not possible in this situation. My wife hasn't committed an act of fraud as sex is not a requirement for marriage. It maybe a desire however its not a contractual obligation for which a person must comply with. In her situation she just doesn't like sex but will oblige me which is different then say telling me "I want to have sex with you" but then after marriage no sex ever occurs regardless of who initiates. Given that she is willing to accommodate my desire for sex when I ask removes any element that would be grounds for annulment.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Okay so annulment ain't gonna happen. Got it. 

I guess to me, I can't help but wonder what in the heck a marriage vow means to you. First, I do find it unwise that a person would marry another person whom they haven't known that much and only met in person twice. The mere fact that you didn't realize her attitude about sex precisely demonstrates that you didn't know her that well!  

Second, whether I think it's wise or not, you did it. You married someone you didn't know very well. Okay. So cat's out of the bag now. You made a covenant with another human being, and your promise wasn't "As long as you give me the sex I want, the way I want, when I want it, I'll honor my promises." It was moreso along the lines of "... to have and to hold from this day forth, for better and worse, richer and poorer, in sickness and in health, forsaking all others until death parts us." 

Did you mean it, or were those just fancy words? You promised to spend the rest of your life loving her, treating her in an loving way, learning how to love her through all the circumstances of life... You made a COMMITMENT. Are you seriously thinking of dumping a lifetime commitment (that, granted, you made prematurely) because you're not getting what you want?

So I'd say the first thing to do is figure out what marriage means to you. If you think of it as YOU getting YOUR needs met, having a sex goddess and companion, never having to be alone, you are looking at it bass ackward. Marriage is a crucible in which the two of you grow as people, each learning how to treat each other in a loving way. That means your job is to learn how to love her... not "Hey how's she loving ME!" 

Once you've figured out what marriage means to you and if you meant your vows, then you look at this like "The Issue vs US." This isn't about YOU vs HER--that sets up your marriage for win/lose and resentment and eventually failure! You are dissatisfied with your mutual sexlife AS IT IS NOW. It can be touchy to talk about improving sex, but if the commitment is solid and you two approach it like you are on the same side and you are going to work together until you find something you can both be enthusiastic about...then you're a team. 

But in the end it's up to you. I find it shocking that the marriage has been this short and you're already looking for justification to get out.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Is she Muslim or Christian? I know a few of each kind, some are more agreeable than others...


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## open351 (Aug 24, 2017)

She is Christian. And to reply to another poster I know that marriage is more than sex. I'm not that naive.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

This is why you should have premarital sex. Would you buy a car without test driving it? Yet you enter into a lifelong contract that will cost you half your stuff to break. When I met my wife she was a virgin but not before the wedding day. I am not that crazy.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Is it fraud if he never asked these questions beforehand? It's not like she lied and said she was a total sex freak and then changed her tune. 
I agree with Affaircare that OP should have talked about this more with her before marriage. He didn't. Imo they are both to blame. They married without truly knowing each other or really discussing important issues. 

Op- you can either divorce now or divorce years down the road when you're even more tired of it, when you're older and more financially entwined and things are more difficult. 

Or you can accept what she is offering and find a way to be happy with it. She is who she is. 

And no, marriage isn't all about sex but it's a very big part and we only live once. I'd rather not spend my years with crappy sex.


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## seabeeken123 (Aug 16, 2017)

After spending 21 years in the navy, I've had many buddies who have brought Asian brides back to the US only to find out that they wanted American citizenship only. Not for love or companionship but to live the American dream with another guy with more money. 
I'm not saying this is the car but it doesn't sound like she was honest in how she views sex in the marriage. Think you should annul the marriage and get her sent back to Indonesia. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

open351 said:


> ** I'm 42 and she is 41- No health issues for us both.
> 
> Hi, I'm recently married in May of this year. i'm American Caucasian and my wife is Chinese Indonesian.
> 
> ...


Is she religious? If so, then talk about her duties as a wife, buy literature to give her.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

As a woman, I think it's important to have sex before the marriage vows. Having once been used as a guy's beard and another time as an object to make another woman jealous, IMO, a man withholding sex is very bad news.

Given western values, that is, a woman is not damaged goods if she is not a virgin before she marries, something our female forebears fought for, a man can reasonably expect that a woman will have sex with him by the time of exclusivity in the relationship. Certainly by the time of engagement.

OP, I'm starting to see how a fair few things are really package deals. Were you looking for a traditional wife who would wait on you when you got home each day?


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

I'll try, again. Just how many times have you actually had sex with this woman?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Post below shows a massive lack of comprehension of our US system.

After two years - she has a steady source of income which - relative to Indonesia is a large income. She can fly or have flown in - family members. 

Temporary hardship for lifetime payout. This is a very common marital immigration story in America. 





badsanta said:


> If you set your problems with sex aside, you need to acknowledge the fact that she has likely sacrificed a lifetime living in her culture, speaking her native language, eating indigenous foods she grew up with, and may hardly ever see her parents again in order to be with you. Everyday she wakes up, these sacrifices are very real and may feel overwhelming to her. She will need to know that you love and care for her as a person, and did not bring her to live with you just for sex.
> 
> Considering how far she is willing to go for you, it is important that you should try to meet her at least half way and show her that you can try do the same for her by being patient and caring. If you manage to do that respectfully and with meaningfully not only will your marriage be worth fighting for, but you will be amazed of what the two of you are capable of doing together.
> 
> Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Blondilocks said:


> I'll try, again. Just how many times have you actually had sex with this woman?


 @Blondilocks some people's libido can make them suffer from "sexual amnesia." In reality sex may have occurred just 48 hours ago, but for people like myself that suffer from this horrible debilitating mental disorder it leaves you unable to remember exactly when you last had sex and feel as if has not happened in almost forever. 

@open351 one way to determine if you have this disorder would be if you have trouble remembering a list of things to buy at the grocery store. An example might be that you are going to the store for only milk and cat food. You come home with $173.49 worth of groceries but you managed to forget both milk and cat food. This is because your libido distracted you and you spent the whole time in the grocery store trying to envision a romantic date night with your wife, and you shopped for things to try and facilitate that. Once you get home, all romantic plans are off because your cat is meowing nonstop for some milk and cat food (that you forgot to buy) which results in your wife getting rather frustrated that you do not care about the simple things that were actually needed from the grocery store. You retreat to a place of emotional loneliness feeling as though your efforts to woo your wife have now become unsurmountable. You go back to the store, and this time you come home with flowers, still forgetting the milk and cat food. It all goes downhill and it feels like it will be forever before you can win your wife's affection again, and that feeling is so overwhelming that it also makes you feel as though it has been forever since you last won your wife affection, even though you both had meaningful intimacy yesterday.

I really hope you don't suffer from this like I do!

In reality I'm just bad at remembering what to get at the grocery store in my opinion. The "sexual amnesia" disorder is what my wife determined that I have. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@open351

How inhibited is your wife? 
How uncomfortable is she with nudity, hers and yours, and her and yours at the same time?
Is she comfortable touching you?

A woman looking to avoid sex will avoid affection in case it leads to sex. A woman with negative experiences with sex will naturally dislike sex. Will naturally avoid sex. Therefore, I think it is safe to assume that her only experiences with sex were negative. The question is, were they traumatic?

Will she discuss her first few sexual experiences?
How did her family discuss sex and sexuality? Was sex a shameful topic? Was your wife a virgin until she met her first husband? How/why did that marriage end?

You need to understand a lot more about her experiences and feelings toward sex because this is a very complicated issue. I suspect your wife was shamed by her family, not uncommon in patriarchal cultures, and I think her first husband was a brute, in the classic sense. A man who ran rough shod over her emotions, penetrated her without regard to her responses, and then made her feel like she was he one who sucked at sex.

Your marriage *could* be saved, but only if your wife is willing to work toward being sexually awakened. You could do this for, but only if she is willing to learn that sex can be fantastic with the right partner. But if she refuses, if she is firmly negative about sex, if she is convinced she will never feel differently about sex, you might as well end the marriage because her views of sex will never change.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> I was thinking the fraud thing. Misrepresenting one's true self is fraudulent, which I think could be argued in this case.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


A woman who is happy to have sex when her husband initiates is hardly defrauding him. Many men would be more than happy with that.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> As a woman, I think it's important to have sex before the marriage vows. Having once been used as a guy's beard and another time as an object to make another woman jealous, IMO, a man withholding sex is very bad news.
> 
> Given western values, that is, a woman is not damaged goods if she is not a virgin before she marries, something our female forebears fought for, a man can reasonably expect that a woman will have sex with him by the time of exclusivity in the relationship. Certainly by the time of engagement.
> 
> OP, I'm starting to see how a fair few things are really package deals. Were you looking for a traditional wife who would wait on you when you got home each day?


In our case and in many others, a man withholding sex before marriage was very good news. To me it shows integrity and strong moral values. 
Probably for this lady, her culture expects that and that's a good thing.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> In our case and in many others, a man withholding sex before marriage was very good news. To me it shows integrity and strong moral values.
> Probably for this lady, her culture expects that and that's a good thing.


Good or bad, withholding sex until marriage should give someone a pretty good idea on how they view sex. For me it would bad, for others it would be good. 

If varied and adventurous sex was important to the OP he should have made sure she was on the same page and refusing sex until marriage is a lot less likely to end up with someone who is confident and knows his/her sexuality and is able to express it. 

But it seems some want it both ways, a "virginal" pure wife with little or no experience who's also a sex freak and just looooves sex with him. It just doesn't work that way for most. If sex isn't important to her before marriage it is more likely not important to her after.


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## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Good or bad, withholding sex until marriage should give someone a pretty good idea on how they view sex. For me it would bad, for others it would be good.
> 
> If varied and adventurous sex was important to the OP he should have made sure she was on the same page and refusing sex until marriage is a lot less likely to end up with someone who is confident and knows his/her sexuality and is able to express it.
> 
> But it seems some want it both ways, a "virginal" pure wife with little or no experience who's also a sex freak and just looooves sex with him. It just doesn't work that way for most. If sex isn't important to her before marriage it is more likely not important to her after.


Yep and brainwashed by parents and/or religion.... no thanks!! I'm smart enough to think on my own. Who the hell takes someone else word that sex before marriage is bad, immoral? The only reason they would do it is because they "believe" they will go to hell. LOL. It's not natural. And any of these people, like Diana, who says they waited to have sex, are liars. I guarantee she had oral or even PIV sex before marriage, just won't admit it to us. I'm pretty sure everyone is a liar!


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> In our case and in many others, a man withholding sex before marriage was very good news. To me it shows integrity and strong moral values.
> Probably for this lady, her culture expects that and that's a good thing.


You were still taking a chance.

Other people have to decide if that's a chance that they want to take.

For me, I am glad not to have married a gay man. And I am also glad to have picked up on early warning signals that a man that I am dating is otherwise involved.

ETA: I am glad that it worked out for you.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> In our case and in many others, a man withholding sex before marriage was very good news. To me it shows integrity and strong moral values.
> Probably for this lady, her culture expects that and that's a good thing.


After thinking about this line, I had to comment.

It is not a sign of integrity and strong moral values when someone

1. misrepresents their sexual orientation for the purpose of improving their public profile while taking advantage of someone else's life.
2. takes up the valuable and goodwill of an individual ...giving off the false impression that someone has a sincere interest in that individual when the individual is nothing more than prop to make a third party jealous.

Also, when someone is not having sex with you it does not mean that they are not having sex at all. I used to visit a "waiting until marriage to have sex" message board (wumths) Some of the women on the board wanted to find an FB until they got a marriage proposal from the guy they wanted to marry.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> Good or bad, withholding sex until marriage should give someone a pretty good idea on how they view sex. For me it would bad, for others it would be good.
> 
> If varied and adventurous sex was important to the OP he should have made sure she was on the same page and refusing sex until marriage is a lot less likely to end up with someone who is confident and knows his/her sexuality and is able to express it.
> 
> But it seems some want it both ways, a "virginal" pure wife with little or no experience who's also a sex freak and just looooves sex with him. It just doesn't work that way for most. If sex isn't important to her before marriage it is more likely not important to her after.


For us sex is very important in marriage, thats why we waited.


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## cc48kel (Apr 5, 2017)

Yes.. some wait and that's great for them.. But I have heard that it's best to 'test the car' before you buy.. It does make sense since sex is super important. I also remember talking to an older man about his marriage.. He waited for sex until marriage but he regretted it because she was so bad at it.. He also said he needed sex so before he married her he would have sex with other women and even through out his marriage too..


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## a_mister (Aug 23, 2017)

open351 said:


> Actually this post was SPOT ON! My wife did give up everything. A good job in accounting, friends, a nice apartment etc to come here. She was not poor and just looking for a Bule to run off to America with. She lived in a nice area in Kelapa Gading in Jakarta which is not a poor area at all. Her issues with sex are purely linked to her lack of experience (which you also called out correctly in your first post) and her low self esteem stemming from her ex husband and one prior experience before him. She has had only 4 sex partners in her 41 years with her ex hubby and myself being the only ones that remained in her life for longer than say a day or few weeks etc.


My interpretation of this is that you're taking her statements at face value without reading between the lines.

If she isn't using you for entry to this country (which seems likely), it's very common for women who aren't particularly interested in sex to cite their past as the reason why, but sometimes the causality is reversed. Perhaps other men did not "remain in her life" because they saw the writing on the wall and realized she was going to be an unenthusiastic partner, and you're merely the next man to be frustrated to his breaking point after only a few short months. Perhaps she doesn't realize that other women experience their libido differently than she does. It might be a "complicated subject" for her because her unwillingness has been a lifelong source of conflict with men.

My LTR was once discussing this with a girlfriend, mentioning that we'd had sex eight times on a weekend away, and her girlfriend was horrified. 

"There is NO WAY I would tolerate that. You should NOT have to put up with that. NO ONE SHOULD." 

It was completely alien to her that a woman might not regard sex as an unpleasant chore to be dodged.

Either way, our biology is geared toward being especially excited by new partners. I'm sorry to say, but I agree with the consensus that you shouldn't count on this improving.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

cc48kel said:


> Yes.. some wait and that's great for them.. But I have heard that it's best to 'test the car' before you buy.. It does make sense since sex is super important. I also remember talking to an older man about his marriage.. He waited for sex until marriage but he regretted it because she was so bad at it.. He also said he needed sex so before he married her he would have sex with other women and even through out his marriage too..


How sad that he didn't think that faithfulness matters and thought nothing of being a serial cheat. Sex is something that needs to be worked on in a marriage. It's not a question of not being good at it, it's something that you unselfishly work on together. Maybe he was a terrible selfish lover and didn't think of meeting her needs in sex or encourage her. Maybe they didn't communicate well about it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

GuyInColorado said:


> Yep and brainwashed by parents and/or religion.... no thanks!! I'm smart enough to think on my own. Who the hell takes someone else word that sex before marriage is bad, immoral? The only reason they would do it is because they "believe" they will go to hell. LOL. It's not natural. And any of these people, like Diana, who says they waited to have sex, are liars. I guarantee she had oral or even PIV sex before marriage, just won't admit it to us. I'm pretty sure everyone is a liar!


No we didnt do those things, we didn't see each other naked before we married. My husband has very strong moral values. Its nothing to do with hell, its to do with the messes I see around me of people who have messed their lives and marriages up because of sleeping around and adultery and taking sex out of a loving committed marriage. 
Yes it is natural, its completely natural and special to save sex for marriage. Many couples do it. It's interesting that you can't understand that it actually happens and that people actually have that discipline and self-control. 
I have no regrets about waiting, nor does he.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Diana7 said:


> For us sex is very important in marriage, thats why we waited.


I was with girls that wanted to wait for marriage. I could still tell that they were into sex. We did virtually everything, except penetration, so I was well aware of how sexual they were without having sex. I am guessing this is how most sexual people are that wait for marriage for actual sex. They still get turned on and still have desire.

The OP should have seen that these signs weren't there.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

SadSamIAm said:


> I was with girls that wanted to wait for marriage. I could still tell that they were into sex. We did virtually everything, except penetration, so I was well aware of how sexual they were without having sex. I am guessing this is how most sexual people are that wait for marriage for actual sex. They still get turned on and still have desire.
> 
> The OP should have seen that these signs weren't there.


I knew that my husband was into sex because we had really good communication. We didn't need to do all that stuff to know that. It's not hard to tell what a partners desire is like even if you don't have sex or do other things of a sexual nature. 
I think that part of the problem here is that they really didn't know each other, having spent such little time together. 
This lady needs encouragement and patience.If he is a good unselfish lover she will come round, and it's not as if they don't have sex, they do, but he initiates. I certainly wouldn't divorce someone who I had so recently promised to stay with and be faithful to, and who I claimed I loved.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> She is a grown assed women. She is forty-one years old.
> 
> She knew better. She has duped you. Bait and switch.
> 
> ...


I disagree with his position. He married a woman from another country. A couple of visits and bam they are married. 

I say the like or dislike of sex never came up during their conversations.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

ABHale said:


> I disagree with his position. He married a woman from another country. A couple of visits and bam they are married.
> 
> I say the like or dislike of sex never came up during their conversations.


OK.

But why would it?

People who are married have sex. At first a lot of sex.

If I am not mistaken she told him she wanted to wait until after they were married for sex. 

At their age that is a red flag....that he missed...that she concealed [the real reason FOR].

Yes, yes, he is a fool. I suspect she is very attractive. Women have us wrapped around their little...........

Fill in the blank yourself. I just got @turnera to talk to me. She too is cute.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM2020 said:


> Post below shows a massive lack of comprehension of our US system.
> 
> After two years - she has a steady source of income which - relative to Indonesia is a large income. She can fly or have flown in - family members.
> 
> Temporary hardship for lifetime payout. This is a very common marital immigration story in America.


Actually it's 2 years to get green card, another 3 for US citizenship, then 10-12 years for family members to be eligible for green card. For some "oversubscribed" countries the wait for family based green is decades plural.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> I knew that my husband was into sex because we had really good communication. We didn't need to do all that stuff to know that. It's not hard to tell what a partners desire is like even if you don't have sex or do other things of a sexual nature.
> I think that part of the problem here is that they really didn't know each other, having spent such little time together.
> This lady needs encouragement and patience.If he is a good unselfish lover she will come round, and it's not as if they don't have sex, they do, but he initiates. I certainly wouldn't divorce someone who I had so recently promised to stay with and be faithful to, and who I claimed I loved.


He can't be "unselfish" when all she allows is kissing and then penetration. These are all kinds of things that need to be known if you are compatible with. 

Foreplay style, likes and dislikes in bed, any kinks or fetishes, desired amount and initiation type, if they enjoy oral or anal or different positions. Unselfish only goes so far when you have complete incompatibility. 
Maybe these things aren't as obvious if neither partner has experienced sex before or have basic, vanilla needs in bed but anyone looking for great sex needs to make sure they have a compatible partner. 

Even learning to like sex for her husband's sake is a lot different than a woman who needs and loves sex herself. It's never the same when they do it "for you" as when they enjoy and need it just as much.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

open351 said:


> I'm actually in law school and an annulment is not possible in this situation. My wife hasn't committed an act of fraud as sex is not a requirement for marriage. It maybe a desire however its not a contractual obligation for which a person must comply with. In her situation she just doesn't like sex but will oblige me which is different then say telling me "I want to have sex with you" but then after marriage no sex ever occurs regardless of who initiates. Given that she is willing to accommodate my desire for sex when I ask removes any element that would be grounds for annulment.


Sooo...she was REALLY looking for someone to take her out of her current living situation and support her by bringing her to the US to get a green card and a better life.

Got it.

Geez, with all the money this lame relationship and marriage has cost you, you could have spent it instead on high class call girls and at least gotten sex for your trouble.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

cc48kel said:


> Yes.. some wait and that's great for them.. But I have heard that it's best to 'test the car' before you buy.. It does make sense since sex is super important. I also remember talking to an older man about his marriage.. He waited for sex until marriage but he regretted it because she was so bad at it.. He also said he needed sex so before he married her he would have sex with other women and even through out his marriage too..


I have a sneaking suspicion quite a few men who 'agree' to no sex before marriage are probably getting it elsewhere.:grin2:


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> I have a sneaking suspicion quite a few men who 'agree' to no sex before marriage are probably getting it elsewhere.:grin2:




Or not interested in getting it anyway. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Forget an annulment and go straight for a divorce based on fraud. 

Does she speak English? Does she have a job? 




open351 said:


> I'm actually in law school and an annulment is not possible in this situation. My wife hasn't committed an act of fraud as sex is not a requirement for marriage. It maybe a desire however its not a contractual obligation for which a person must comply with. In her situation she just doesn't like sex but will oblige me which is different then say telling me "I want to have sex with you" but then after marriage no sex ever occurs regardless of who initiates. Given that she is willing to accommodate my desire for sex when I ask removes any element that would be grounds for annulment.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I knew that my husband was into sex because we had really good communication. We didn't need to do all that stuff to know that. It's not hard to tell what a partners desire is like even if you don't have sex or do other things of a sexual nature.
> I think that part of the problem here is that they really didn't know each other, having spent such little time together.
> This lady needs encouragement and patience.If he is a good unselfish lover she will come round*, and it's not as if they don't have sex, they do*, but he initiates. I certainly wouldn't divorce someone who I had so recently promised to stay with and be faithful to, and who I claimed I loved.


We don't know that they have had sex. From the title of the thread, it would seem not. He hasn't been back to expand on this.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Or not interested in getting it anyway.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Or have good morals, love and respect their partner and her wishes, and/or have a strong Christian faith.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> We don't know that they have had sex. From the title of the thread, it would seem not. He hasn't been back to expand on this.


He said they only have sex when he initiates.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> He can't be "unselfish" when all she allows is kissing and then penetration. These are all kinds of things that need to be known if you are compatible with.
> 
> Foreplay style, likes and dislikes in bed, any kinks or fetishes, desired amount and initiation type, if they enjoy oral or anal or different positions. Unselfish only goes so far when you have complete incompatibility.
> Maybe these things aren't as obvious if neither partner has experienced sex before or have basic, vanilla needs in bed but anyone looking for great sex needs to make sure they have a compatible partner.
> ...


As I said, that's why you communicate, and why you have such fun growing into great sex after marriage. It's all about being unselfish, remembering what sex actually is, and meeting the right partner who will love and respect you. In this case he seems to have barely known her before they married and I think that is the problem.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

Steve1000 said:


> Your reply is to call the OP a "sucker" ?


i did not mean to denigrate the OP...just to shock him into realizing the reality of his situation. He was played. There is no love there. Just a conman/sucker relationship.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> No we didnt do those things, we didn't see each other naked before we married. My husband has very strong moral values. Its nothing to do with hell, its to do with the messes I see around me of people who have messed their lives and marriages up because of sleeping around and adultery and taking sex out of a loving committed marriage.
> Yes it is natural, its completely natural and special to save sex for marriage. Many couples do it. It's interesting that you can't understand that it actually happens and that people actually have that discipline and self-control.
> I have no regrets about waiting, nor does he.


I love this post because Diana7 never backs down.


I only hope the other diana's [small cap] don't hold out until after marriage and then hold out some more.

Hold their legs shut.
Hold their legs shut until they get some demand or need met.

The juicy jewel that belongs to women is highly prized by men. If she is chaste prior to marriage...good deal. If she is stingy with this wonderful thing after marriage....shame on her!

Diana is a wonderful lady...she does not hold anything back from her husband. Or away from him. Good!


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> He said they only have sex when he initiates.


He also said there is no sex regardless of who initiates. He would get more appropriate advice if he provided more info and wasn't so vague.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Or have good morals, love and respect their partner and her wishes, and/or have a strong Christian faith.



The wife is Asian. so there is a better than 50% chance that she is not Christian. Would that be a problem for you? Would you still be qualified to hand out advice to her?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> I love this post because Diana7 never backs down.
> 
> 
> I only hope the other diana's [small cap] don't hold out until after marriage and then hold out some more.
> ...


Thank you, I appreciate your support. I know many couples who waited for marriage and are very happy now. It's demeaning when some imply that a man or women who wait for marriage must be asexual or gay, it's completely wrong. To me it shows their good character. One of the many things that attracted me to my husband was his his integrity and good character.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> The wife is Asian. so there is a better than 50% chance that she is not Christian. Would that be a problem for you? Would you still be qualified to hand out advice to her?


Faith was only one of the three things I mentioned.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> He also said there is no sex regardless of who initiates. He would get more appropriate advice if he provided more info and wasn't so vague.


 Here is what he said

She will have sex with me "however" only if i initiate it and if i don't then we just do nothing.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> Thank you, I appreciate your support. I know many couples who waited for marriage and are very happy now. It's demeaning when some imply that a man or women who wait for marriage must be asexual or gay, it's completely wrong. To me it shows their good character. One of the many things that attracted me to my husband was his his integrity and good character.


Thank you, in return!

I know, I am a crusty, cheeky Yank with flowery, oft graphic words, that give Chutzpah a new meaning.

But, you and both I know.....that is all show.

Tis' naugh' buut glitter and fluorescent paint oown ah 1946 Morris Minor.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

open351 said:


> She is Christian. And to reply to another poster I know that marriage is more than sex. I'm not that naive.


One good thing about her:

She is 'less' likely to cheat on you. At least for a thrill. For a sexual adventure.

That is not a small thing.

Just Sayin.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> As a woman, I think it's important to have sex before the marriage vows. *Having once been used as a guy's beard* and another time as an object to make another woman jealous, IMO, a man withholding sex is very bad news.


A guys beard?

This one did not slip past me. Wow, that is more graphic than anything that I have ever written.

I am so jealous of that word usage.

I am so jealous of that man........ having such a wonderful curly beard. I really am.

You wrote those words in anger? In disgust?

Sorry, the imagery made my day. :smile2:


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

"She will have sex with me "however" only if i initiate it and if i don't then we just do nothing. *We kiss, hold hands, cuddle but no sex of any kind."*

From his first post.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I agree with everyone telling you to divorce. You're not compatible at all, and I'd not look for another partner in the same way again. Meet someone local, that you can actually get to know on a daily basis, and see if the relationship has potential. Sorry you were duped.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> "She will have sex with me "however" only if i initiate it and if i don't then we just do nothing. *We kiss, hold hands, cuddle but no sex of any kind."*
> 
> From his first post.


unless he initiates.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> I agree with everyone telling you to divorce. You're not compatible at all, and I'd not look for another partner in the same way again. Meet someone local, that you can actually get to know on a daily basis, and see if the relationship has potential. Sorry you were *duped.*


Duped.

Do-Ped.

Do walk. Find someone more compatible. 

This organic chemical experiment did not exchange enough electrons. And the proteins that you put in her beaker were wasted. No co-valent bonding occurred.
...................................................................

The lady is not horrible. She is not.

She just cannot..............

Do two things.

Kiss and chew open your desire. 

Her little dull teeth [though shiny] have no passion behind the bite and no active tongue to lick your heart.

She is a figment of a companion in a lonely canyon. You only hear your own echoes....your own moans of delight.

Her body do layeth beside thee. 
Her mind? Only God knows where it lie.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Thank you, I appreciate your support. I know many couples who waited for marriage and are very happy now. It's demeaning when some imply that a man or women who wait for marriage must be asexual or gay, it's completely wrong. To me it shows their good character. One of the many things that attracted me to my husband was his his integrity and good character.


So, do you consider having sex before marriage an indicator of less than stellar moral character, perhaps?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

As long as it does not involve a light blue ankle length dress and white bonnet...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

alexm said:


> Perhaps.
> 
> Perhaps it's exactly what I said.
> 
> ...


I don't think the issue is lack of experience but rather a lack of enthusiasm. People who are into sex don't just lie there, fail to initiate, or go straight from kiss to intercourse to a finishing kiss. They take initiative, experiment, go through those sometimes-awkward first encounters to develop a strong sexual foundation.

As you noted, Indonesia is not some little backwater place. I don't believe that a divorcee in her 40s (who probably has several married or divorced friends) is uninformed on sexual expectations, range of sexual activities, and where she fits in that spectrum. 

The most likely scenario is that she wanted to be married to the OP for whatever reason. Maybe she was poor and needed a fresh start for her / her family, maybe she wanted an adventure, maybe she really liked the OP (at least as a companion). So she chose to hide her ambivalence towards sex (or sex with him). Saying only "no sex until marriage" was only a half truth, which is basically a lie.

Ladies who don't like sex know that puts them at a disadvantage in getting a guy. So I understand the temptation to lie and hope it works out. But lying is still wrong. This guy got duped, he's (rightfully) upset about the situation and needs to fix it.

I personally would not tell him to divorce straight away. But, he should tell his wife that the sex life is unsatisfactory - for the marriage to survive she needs to develop some passion in their intimate life and set a deadline (say six months). Then it's up to her to step up or bow out.


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## George36 (Aug 26, 2017)

Your time limit is probably two years if they continue to allow foreign spouses to stay in U.S. after divorce. I believe that you have the equivalent of a "mail order bride" and you are being used as a way of entry into the U.S. Next, her relatives will want to come for a long visit.

Good luck.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> No we didnt do those things, we didn't see each other naked before we married. My husband has very strong moral values. Its nothing to do with hell, its to do with the messes I see around me of people who have messed their lives and marriages up because of sleeping around and adultery and taking sex out of a loving committed marriage.
> Yes it is natural, its completely natural and special to save sex for marriage. Many couples do it. It's interesting that you can't understand that it actually happens and that people actually have that discipline and self-control.
> I have no regrets about waiting, nor does he.


Personally, I think there's something to be said about waiting for a partner that you love, trust, and can see with long-term before having sex with them, rather than waiting for marriage outright. It's kind of a compromise, and a good one at that.

The assumption that people who have pre-marital sex "sleep around" is false, and paints many good people in a bad light.

I believe strongly that God intends one to wait for _love_ before sharing one's body, and that's the actual intention. Not a ceremony. Marriage has changed, both for better and for worse over the millennia. It's not the same thing as it was ~2000 years ago, nor is much else that the bible refers to or describes. Many people don't even actually get married anymore, choosing rather to spend their lives with one person without the ceremonial aspects of it.

Diana, this has worked for you, there's no doubt about it whatsoever. The reality is, waiting for marriage does not work for many, many others. It simply can't in this day and age. There is so much more to marriage than there was in those days, including the fact that women have far more say in day-to-day life then they ever did.

I strongly believe that two people who love each other and intend to marry absolutely should make sure they're compatible (or willing to work on it) prior to tying the knot. And because marriage is a big deal to many, it's only prudent that one explore these avenues before, ensuring a lifetime of happiness and commitment.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

DTO said:


> I don't think the issue is lack of experience but rather a lack of enthusiasm. People who are into sex don't just lie there, fail to initiate, or go straight from kiss to intercourse to a finishing kiss. They take initiative, experiment, go through those sometimes-awkward first encounters to develop a strong sexual foundation.
> 
> As you noted, Indonesia is not some little backwater place. I don't believe that a divorcee in her 40s (who probably has several married or divorced friends) is uninformed on sexual expectations, range of sexual activities, and where she fits in that spectrum.
> 
> ...


This is not directed at you, @DTO, but the OP clearly stated that his wife was not 'poor', looking for a green card, or any of that.

I'm unsure of whether many of the posters here are reading anything the OP has said, given the continued "you're being duped", "she just wants a green card" angle. Sigh.

I love my neighbours to the South, I really do, but man... some of y'all seem to think that all foreigners somehow dream of becoming US citizens some day and they'll do anything to get there.

And worse, that all people from other countries outside of NA or Europe are poor, or that their countries are "third world".

OP clearly stated that his wife is educated, not poor, has family, etc. and left a LOT behind to come to him.

He also said that she's Christian. She's divorced, and that her ex husband flat out told her she's "bad at sex". Sexual experience prior to this was minimal, if not non-existent.

Take everything OP has said and do the math. Basic addition/subtraction. Quit focusing on the fact that she's coming from another (non-third-world) country, and what do you have? Same question that's been asked on TAM 1000x.

Yet OP is receiving multiple bad answers, IMO, a lot of them focused solely on her nationality and country of origin.

Like I said, this is basic math. Some of you are trying to do algebra here.


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## Johntee (Apr 27, 2017)

Why so biased. what the 1st world and 3rd world. The whole world is the globe . It is an issue with that lady, even I will not call it an issue. It is her choice about sex. Such ladies can be found in so called "1st world".


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## Johntee (Apr 27, 2017)

It is not an issue. You can do all with love and romance. No need to get advice from anyone. She is also human, not a machine that all "Engineers" available at this forum will let you know the best about user manual. You need to continue romance and sex every day or on every couple of days. She will start feeling same.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

alexm said:


> Personally, I think there's something to be said about waiting for a partner that you love, trust, and can see with long-term before having sex with them, rather than waiting for marriage outright. It's kind of a compromise, and a good one at that.
> 
> The assumption that people who have pre-marital sex "sleep around" is false, and paints many good people in a bad light.
> 
> ...


Thank you for your reply, and I agree that many do live together before marriage or instead of marriage, but for us that doesn't mean that we should do the same. Our faith means that we wait till marriage and are blessed because of it. 
If we trust God and make sure that the one we marry is His choice for us, then it will work with commitment and faithfulness and dedication to each other.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

As much as one can blame other factors for low desire or low sexuality, the marriage Visa is too big of a white elephant to ignore. The US immigration service has seen a whole lot and is generally very diligent.

Whether the person comes from money or is working is irrelevant. For most 2.5 or 3.0 world countries a green card is a goal in itself, which is why in the USA we end up with a Louisville's worth of people coming in every year, nearly all family based.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> Thank you for your reply, and I agree that many do live together before marriage or instead of marriage, but for us that doesn't mean that we should do the same. Our faith means that we wait till marriage and are blessed because of it.
> If we trust God and make sure that the one we marry is His choice for us, then it will work with commitment and faithfulness and dedication to each other.


I absolutely love your dedication, I really do - and completely respect it, believe it or not.

It's just that, if you read the bible religiously (no pun intended!) it's full of "pick and choose" items, and most people do just that.

Without starting a bible war - I swear I'm not trying to do that - I recall the book saying that a man spilling his seed on the ground is a sin - the same sin as pre-marital sex. Eternal damnation and all that.

That means masturbation. This is the same part of the bible, I believe, that also denounces pre-marital sex.

If your husband has never masturbated, pre, or post marriage - my hat's off to him.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

alexm said:


> I absolutely love your dedication, I really do - and completely respect it, believe it or not.
> 
> It's just that, if you read the bible religiously (no pun intended!) it's full of "pick and choose" items, and most people do just that.
> 
> ...


The story of Onan isn't about masturbation being wrong, it was because he was supposed to be providing a son for his brother's wife after his brother had died 
as was the law then and he refused. 

Premarital sex is forbidden in many places in the OT and NT, there really is no loophole if you are serious about the Christian faith. Those who arent Christians will live as they like. 
My husband doesn't masturbate since our marriage, because we have sex as often as each of us wants, so there is no need.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> The story of Onan isn't about masturbation being wrong, it was because he was supposed to be providing a son for his brother's wife after his brother had died
> as was the law then and he refused.
> 
> Premarital sex is forbidden in many places in the OT and NT, there really is no loophole if you are serious about the Christian faith. Those who arent Christians will live as they like.
> My husband doesn't masturbate since our marriage, because we have sex as often as each of us wants, so there is no need.


Fair enough.

Masturbation isn't about "need" though, for many. Solo sexual gratification is an entirely different thing than sex with a partner. Just saying. It's healthy.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

SunCMars said:


> One good thing about her:
> 
> She is 'less' likely to cheat on you. At least for a thrill. For a sexual adventure.
> 
> ...


oh Gawd...i wish i had a buck for every woman who told their man "i do not like sex", and then got caught shtooping the next door neighbor every morning.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

alexm said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Masturbation isn't about "need" though, for many. Solo sexual gratification is an entirely different thing than sex with a partner. Just saying. It's healthy.


I expect we all have different ideas about that.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)




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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> I expect we all have different ideas about that.


Apparently, lol!

To me, it's perfectly acceptable. Like watching a movie on your own, or eating alone, or shopping by yourself.

Normally, I like to share things with people, but every now and again, I like to just kick back and watch a movie by myself!


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

john117 said:


> As much as one can blame other factors for low desire or low sexuality, the marriage Visa is too big of a white elephant to ignore. The US immigration service has seen a whole lot and is generally very diligent.
> 
> Whether the person comes from money or is working is irrelevant. For most 2.5 or 3.0 world countries a green card is a goal in itself, which is why in the USA we end up with a Louisville's worth of people coming in every year, nearly all family based.


That's fine, but the OP stated that this was not the case with his wife.

Accept that at face value. Too many people here speculating on this angle, rather than offering helpful advice, which the OP is asking for.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

alexm said:


> Apparently, lol!
> 
> To me, it's perfectly acceptable. Like watching a movie on your own, or eating alone, or shopping by yourself.
> 
> Normally, I like to share things with people, but every now and again, I like to just kick back and watch a movie by myself!


 Far better to have sex with the one you love.


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

You know Diana, these views of yours sure would go over a lot better if you didn't continually present them as moral absolutes with implied value judgments of those who don't see it your way. Finding a guy who wants to wait with you isn't indicative of _superior_ character; it's a sign of mutual compatibility and shared values that's superior FOR YOU. 

Likewise, masturbation isn't inferior to partnered sex for everyone, merely different. You're implying an either-or zero-sum choice that may not exist--for instance, what if I wanted to masturbate in anticipation of sex with a partner? Or what if I wanted to "take the edge off" so I could last longer? People (and particularly women) can have more than one orgasm in a given period--and they can also masturbate without orgasm.


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## Westwind (May 20, 2013)

Found this on Google news: Women reveal their sexiest stats in new orgasm study | CBC Life "Women's Experiences with Genital Touching, Sexual Pleasure, and Orgasm" It's complex and specific to the person so communication is the way to woman's orgasm.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Phil Anders said:


> for instance, what if I wanted to masturbate in anticipation of sex with a partner? Or what if I wanted to "take the edge off" so I could last longer?


The in that case, you are doing the solo thing in support of the partner thing, which would itself imply that the latter is the ultimate goal, and therefore, more important.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> Far better to have sex with the one you love.


I love myself, as well as my wife!


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## Phil Anders (Jun 24, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The in that case, you are doing the solo thing in support of the partner thing, which would itself imply that the latter is the ultimate goal, and therefore, more important.


Point taken, however the word used was "better" which has a vibe of _masturbation in an LTR is bad, don't do it as you should be having partner sex instead_. 

Also, that was far from an an exhaustive list. Maybe I'm being frozen out and haven't been able to reconnect, yet have needs. Maybe I'm fantasizing about something my partner won't do, or something that's physically impossible, or relationally ill-advised. Or maybe we've mutually agreed that porn/romance novels/mind movies are an OK outlet for transient other-directed fantasies. 

Whatever the case, being on the same page seems more important than applying some externally derived, one-size-fits-all value judgment.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Christianity has many sects and the majority of Christians do not hold premarital sex to be a fast-track ticket to hell. Sex between loving partners is not viewed the same as casual sex. I would encourage the OP to establish sexual compatibility before tying the knot in the future.

In any event, it looks like the OP just stopped by to use the restroom.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

alexm said:


> That's fine, but the OP stated that this was not the case with his wife.
> 
> Accept that at face value. Too many people here speculating on this angle, rather than offering helpful advice, which the OP is asking for.


I would not be so sure that OP knows the reason...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Phil Anders said:


> Point taken, however the word used was "better" which has a vibe of _masturbation in an LTR is bad, don't do it as you should be having partner sex instead_.
> 
> Also, that was far from an an exhaustive list. Maybe I'm being frozen out and haven't been able to reconnect, yet have needs. Maybe I'm fantasizing about something my partner won't do, or something that's physically impossible, or relationally ill-advised. Or maybe we've mutually agreed that porn/romance novels/mind movies are an OK outlet for transient other-directed fantasies.
> 
> Whatever the case, being on the same page seems more important than applying some externally derived, one-size-fits-all value judgment.


I'm pretty sure most people, regardless of any religious or moral convictions, feel that partner sex is "better" than masturbation. We put a whole lot of effort into the former so it must have something going for it. The two aren't mutually exclusive, but we really try hard to get satisfying partner sex, or lament when when we're not getting it. That wouldn't be the case if it wasn't a more desirable goal.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

alexm said:


> This is not directed at you, @DTO, but the OP clearly stated that his wife was not 'poor', looking for a green card, or any of that.
> 
> I'm unsure of whether many of the posters here are reading anything the OP has said, given the continued "you're being duped", "she just wants a green card" angle. Sigh.
> 
> ...


You might be right. I try to read the salient points of a thread but miss things sometimes.

Regardless, my advice stands regardless of what's causing her lack of drive. It's almost assuredly not his fault, because it's been this way the entire marriage. I don't believe that she did not know her drive was low, and neglecting to tell him is a crappy thing to do.

If she can't start getting it together in 6 months, then it's best for them to go their own ways and look for more sexually compatible partners.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

DTO said:


> You might be right. I try to read the salient points of a thread but miss things sometimes.
> 
> Regardless, my advice stands regardless of what's causing her lack of drive. It's almost assuredly not his fault, because it's been this way the entire marriage. I don't believe that she did not know her drive was low, and neglecting to tell him is a crappy thing to do.
> 
> If she can't start getting it together in 6 months, then it's best for them to go their own ways and look for more sexually compatible partners.


Although I suppose she should have told him she doesn't have much of a sex drive, I'm never quite sure how something like that would come up in conversation, know what I mean?

I understand the relationship started long distance, so I imagine there would have been Facetime or video chats, or whatever - which would normally have progressed into cam sex. I mean, that's what people in long distance relationships do, right? I know I would.

I don't think either person "has" to tell the other about things like this, rather it's up to the two of them to discover these things about one another, know what I mean? Like she's under no obligation to say "by the way, I really don't like sex, just so you know". For her, it's likely a non-issue. It usually is with LD people. They just don't think about it, therefore it's not discussed. For her part, she DOES have sex with him (for now...) so in her mind, what's to disclose? That she doesn't think about sex? That she doesn't get horny?

I think it's up to both of them to discover these things about one another, preferably prior to taking the big plunge. That's my opinion. Maybe OP missed the signs, or maybe he just never brought the subject of sex up. Maybe he thought he was being a gentleman during the long distance courting phase and never suggested they strip naked and have cam sex.

More than likely, though, he probably assumed she was shy, "proper", that her culture prevented her from, say, having cam sex, and that once she got here, she'd be crazy and wild in the bedroom. That's my guess.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

alexm said:


> I love myself, as well as my wife!


Clearly.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Blondilocks said:


> Christianity has many sects and the majority of Christians do not hold premarital sex to be a fast-track ticket to hell. Sex between loving partners is not viewed the same as casual sex. I would encourage the OP to establish sexual compatibility before tying the knot in the future.
> 
> In any event, it looks like the OP just stopped by to use the restroom.


The majority of Christians know that sex outside marriage is wrong, because that's what the Bible says.I don't know any Christian denomination that says it's ok. It's not what sends you to hell, but it's very unwise.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I think its so sad that so many treat marriage with such disdain and in such a casual manner. If you are not 'compatible' in one thing or another, just leave. Find another person.Maybe they will be 'perfect'. Maybe they will 'meet all my needs'. 
Marriage is for better or for worse, in sickness and health, for richer for poorer, forsaking all others.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Diana7 said:


> Clearly.


"For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church" - Ephesians 5:29


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> I think its so sad that so many treat marriage with such disdain and in such a casual manner. If you are not 'compatible' in one thing or another, just leave. Find another person.Maybe they will be 'perfect'. Maybe they will 'meet all my needs'.
> Marriage is for better or for worse, in sickness and health, for richer for poorer, forsaking all others.


I agree with this to a point, it's much better to figure these things out before marriage. By living together and sleeping together and really getting to know each other. 

A lot of incompatibilities are un-fixable no matter how much love you try to put into it.
A lot of incompatibilities are un-known until you've actually experienced them with that person.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> I agree with this to a point, it's much better to figure these things out before marriage. By living together and sleeping together and really getting to know each other.
> 
> A lot of incompatibilities are un-fixable no matter how much love you try to put into it.
> A lot of incompatibilities are un-known until you've actually experienced them with that person.


I dont believe that you will be incompatible in that way. Its all about compromise, unselfishness, putting your spouse first, being committed, faithful, and working on the marriage.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> The majority of Christians know that sex outside marriage is wrong, because that's what the Bible says.I don't know any Christian denomination that says it's ok. It's not what sends you to hell, but it's very unwise.


So what do you say to all those Catholic priests who butt ****ed boys for years. Would you tell them that they should wait for marriage?


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> I dont believe that you will be incompatible in that way. Its all about compromise, unselfishness, putting your spouse first, being committed, faithful, and working on the marriage.


Some things can't be fixed. It's a lovely goal and when it works it is amazing but it's not always so simple. You seem to have found a husband who is compatible with you and any minor problems are worked out in a loving way. I think that's great and wish everyone found that in their partner. 

Sexual compatibility is important and if there was a way to fix it, this section of the forum would be practically dead. 

I'd rather know before I decide to commit to someone if we are compatible in that way. But then I go much further in the opposite direction and I totally recommend sleeping with someone on the first date, get it out of the way cause there's no point wasting your time on another date if they are bad in bed.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> I think its so sad that so many treat marriage with such disdain and in such a casual manner. If you are not 'compatible' in one thing or another, just leave. Find another person.Maybe they will be 'perfect'. Maybe they will 'meet all my needs'.
> Marriage is for better or for worse, in sickness and health, for richer for poorer, forsaking all others.


But also, there are a lot of people I've seen here whose spouses have already broken/violated the marriage contract, and whose spouses have no intention of actually honoring the marriage contract.

What would you have those people do?


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

NextTimeAround said:


> So what do you say to all those Catholic priests who butt ****ed boys for years. Would you tell them that they should wait for marriage?


The RC's have a very unbiblical system that doesn't allow their priests to marry.This tends to attract men who are either gay or attracted to children. Any sexual activity with children is very wrong and sick.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> But also, there are a lot of people I've seen here whose spouses have already broken/violated the marriage contract, and whose spouses have no intention of actually honoring the marriage contract.
> 
> What would you have those people do?


There are things such as adultery and abuse that do violate the marriage contract.
Then divorce may happen, but those are very serious things.


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## [email protected] (Aug 13, 2017)

open351 said:


> ** I'm 42 and she is 41- No health issues for us both.
> 
> Hi, I'm recently married in May of this year. i'm American Caucasian and my wife is Chinese Indonesian.
> 
> ...




I do not believe that you can change a persons nature. I am sure people here will disagree but I believe you have grounds for annulment. She is an adult and should have been honest with you from the very beginning. You sound like a really nice guy and people take advantage of nice guys. I do not think anyone here will argue with that.


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## Westwind (May 20, 2013)

What kind of an orgasm does the OP want from his wife?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

alexm said:


> Although I suppose she should have told him she doesn't have much of a sex drive, I'm never quite sure how something like that would come up in conversation, know what I mean?
> 
> I understand the relationship started long distance, so I imagine there would have been Facetime or video chats, or whatever - which would normally have progressed into cam sex. I mean, that's what people in long distance relationships do, right? I know I would.
> 
> ...


What prevented them from having sex was not necessarily the distance. It was her telling him that she was abstaining from sex until marriage. So, she put a stop to the normal (for our society, at least) pre-marital sexual exploration.

How would that come up in conversation? The same as any difficult but necessary pre-marital conversation. When you have a situation that is going to make it hard to keep up your end of the marriage partnership, you need to say something:
* I am not really into / don't really like sex.
* I have a ton of student debt.
* I am a carrier of Cystic Fibrosis / Sickle-cell Anemia / whatever.

Moreover, she already breached the subject of sex when she declared "no sex until married". She really should have said "no sex until married, and then I'll make myself available to you". What she did was tell a half-truth, which is a lie of omission

I disagree that she had no responsibility to tell him about her preferences, because her sexual ideal (starfish, from what the OP describes) is far below what most people expect from marriage. The rationale of "it's just who she is, so there's nothing to disclose" doesn't hold water. Let's say I get married and don't tell my partner that I have nerve damage from surgery and sex is difficult, and my defense is "well I've always been that way, so it didn't cross my mind". Crappy excuse, right?

Also, I don't believe that she did not know her sexual appetite and repertoire were below par. As noted earlier, she is in her 40s, has been married, and grew up in a fairly modern country. You can get an Indonesian version of Cosmo, and it does discuss sex, for instance. It's more likely she feared making her preferences known would endanger her relationship.

Sex is a big deal. It's widely accepted that sexual incompatibility is a good reason to avoid or end a marriage; we say as much on TAM. For someone who doesn't like sex but wants a marriage, there is a strong incentive to keep quiet and hope things work out somehow.

No doubt the OP missed some signs. A person who wants to abstain until marriage, but still desires his or her future spouse, ordinarily has to make an effort to remain celibate. You'd be able to sense the tension and desire. I'm thinking that was largely absent here, which should have been a huge red flag.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> There are things such as adultery and abuse that do violate the marriage contract.
> Then divorce may happen, but those are very serious things.


I don't think that's quite right. Adultery and abuse are not the only violations of the marriage contract that lead to divorce. Sexual immorality in general is a violation of the marriage contract that may lead to divorce. Adultery is one form of sexual immorality. There are others, like pornography and refusing to fulfill your partner sexually.

Essentially, the requirement is to provide for your spouse's sexual fulfillment. There is no checklist you can point to and say "there, I've done enough - if you're not happy that's your problem". You need to meet your spouse where his or her needs lie, even if that is more than you require for yourself. The problem today is people are quick to quote "you must save yourself for your spouse" but quick to deny "you must fulfill your spouse sexually".

From a strict Christian perspective, if the OP's wife indeed is just laying there and making herself available for sex, and the OP is not happy with that (which is certainly understandable), then she is sinning against him.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

I get you. But.

The reality, IMO, is that she wasn't specifically hiding anything from him. Think about it from her perspective - what would she think she's hiding? I mean, she HAS sex. She's not averse to having sex. She doesn't hate sex. So what exactly is she hiding? That she's not sexually aggressive? Many people aren't.

When you don't have much of a drive, you tend not to think of it. I mean, she does, and will have sex with her husband, so what's to disclose to him?

Really, it's up to both people to figure out their compatibility level in this regard, and every other possible way, prior to marriage. I don't get the impression she pretended to be someone she's not.

In all honesty, if I were dating somebody long distance like this, the subject of sex would most definitely come up. There would be cam sex, and sexy talk and that sort of thing. Not just for the obvious reasons (fun) but to find out the compatibility level before taking it further.

I mean, the courting process is the same whether it's long-distance or in-person, is it not? You get as accurate a feel for the person as you can - and that includes sexually. Even if one or both people will not have sex or any kind of sexual relations prior to marriage - you still talk about it. Am I wrong?

So purely from her perspective, I truly don't know what she possibly "should" have said to him. IMO, this sort of thing required more probing from him. I'm being honest here, I genuinely don't know what she could have/should have said to him, out of the blue, that would let him know she's not sexually aggressive. Because really, that's what OP's issue is. She IS having sex with him, doesn't turn him down - she's just not great at it, nor does she pursue him for sex.

So in the end, the sex isn't very good. But she can be guided and taught, no?





DTO said:


> What prevented them from having sex was not necessarily the distance. It was her telling him that she was abstaining from sex until marriage. So, she put a stop to the normal (for our society, at least) pre-marital sexual exploration.
> 
> How would that come up in conversation? The same as any difficult but necessary pre-marital conversation. When you have a situation that is going to make it hard to keep up your end of the marriage partnership, you need to say something:
> * I am not really into / don't really like sex.
> ...


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

DTO said:


> I don't think that's quite right. Adultery and abuse are not the only violations of the marriage contract that lead to divorce. Sexual immorality in general is a violation of the marriage contract that may lead to divorce. Adultery is one form of sexual immorality. There are others, like pornography and refusing to fulfill your partner sexually.
> 
> Essentially, the requirement is to provide for your spouse's sexual fulfillment. There is no checklist you can point to and say "there, I've done enough - if you're not happy that's your problem". You need to meet your spouse where his or her needs lie, even if that is more than you require for yourself. The problem today is people are quick to quote "you must save yourself for your spouse" but quick to deny "you must fulfill your spouse sexually".
> 
> From a strict Christian perspective, if the OP's wife indeed is just laying there and making herself available for sex, and the OP is not happy with that (which is certainly understandable), then she is sinning against him.


While I can understand that if a spouse refuses to have sex ever, that is what most would consider grounds for divorce, but its not actually biblical. I personally wouldn't divorce if my husband couldn't or wouldn't have sex, my marriage is far more important than that and I made promises when I married.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> While I can understand that if a spouse refuses to have sex ever, that is what most would consider grounds for divorce, but its not actually biblical. I personally wouldn't divorce if my husband couldn't or wouldn't have sex, my marriage is far more important than that and I made promises when I married.


Actually, it could be. Refusing sex (depending on the circumstances) could be considered emotional abuse (of a component thereof). Given that abuse is an acceptable reason for divorce within Biblical parameters, one COULD divorce a spouse for refusing sex. Dependent on circumstances.

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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FeministInPink said:


> Actually, it could be. Refusing sex (depending on the circumstances) could be considered emotional abuse (of a component thereof). Given that abuse is an acceptable reason for divorce within Biblical parameters, one COULD divorce a spouse for refusing sex. Dependent on circumstances.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


Far better for someone to remind the spouse who refuses all sex, that God says we are not to deprive the other. In a lot of cases is a matter of one wanting sex more than the other, rather than there being no sex at all.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Diana7 said:


> Far better for someone to remind the spouse who refuses all sex, that God says we are not to deprive the other. In a lot of cases is a matter of one wanting sex more than the other, rather than there being no sex at all.


I'm aware you don't agree with my particular branch of Christianity, the Roman Catholic Church, but in this we both agree for the same reasons. We are taught refusing a spouse sex without a good reason is a grave sin. 1st Corinthians: 7, I believe. This woman isn't denying her husband sex. She has sex when he initiates. She doesn't refuse him. She's just not actively seeking sex and does seem to be rather bad at it. But she's not refusing him.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

MJJEAN said:


> I'm aware you don't agree with my particular branch of Christianity, the Roman Catholic Church, but in this we both agree for the same reasons. We are taught refusing a spouse sex without a good reason is a grave sin. 1st Corinthians: 7, I believe. This woman isn't denying her husband sex. She has sex when he initiates. She doesn't refuse him. She's just not actively seeking sex and does seem to be rather bad at it. But she's not refusing him.


Its a sin but not a grave sin.

As with the ops wife, many women don't initiate and having been told by her ex that she is bad at sex, it's not hard to see why this is.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Wait a second. 

Hmmmm.....

So there are "sins" &

"Grave Sins"?


I need someone to forward me this memo. I guess I missed that Sunday. Darn it!


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Its a sin but not a grave sin.
> 
> As with the ops wife, many women don't initiate and having been told by her ex that she is bad at sex, it's not hard to see why this is.


It's been a long while since my church days but I thought all sins are equal. 

Anyway, what the op's wife is able to give is not compatible with what the op wants. 

Doesn't much matter if it's a sin or not, they aren't compatible. He can stay and keep being incompatible for the next 40+ years so he can allow them both to find someone who suits them better.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Wait a second.
> 
> Hmmmm.....
> 
> ...


Qualitative Data Analysis to the rescue...


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

john117 said:


> Qualitative Data Analysis to the rescue...




Ah...well it makes perfect sense then. My bad. 

Thank you @john117 


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Wait a second.
> 
> Hmmmm.....
> 
> ...


 Yes the RC's have levels of sin. I see all sin as sin personally.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

alexm said:


> So in the end, the sex isn't very good. But she can be guided and taught, no?


Hopefully she can. If she's only lacking some experience, then yeah she can learn to do better. If her problem is that she just doesn't see sex as important enough to learn how to be better at it, isn't attracted to the OP enough to be bothered, or have some sort of trauma, then the odds are against meaningful improvement.

I think my advice is still valid. If the OP sits her down and explains what he expects from marriage in this area, six months is more than enough to see significant improvement. If not, then it probably won't happen.


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## [email protected] (Aug 13, 2017)

DTO said:


> Hopefully she can. If she's only lacking some experience, then yeah she can learn to do better. If her problem is that she just doesn't see sex as important enough to learn how to be better at it, isn't attracted to the OP enough to be bothered, or have some sort of trauma, then the odds are against meaningful improvement.
> 
> 
> 
> I think my advice is still valid. If the OP sits her down and explains what he expects from marriage in this area, six months is more than enough to see significant improvement. If not, then it probably won't happen.




Amyone know the ages of this couple?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Amyone know the ages of this couple?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Both in their early 40s. She has been married and divorced already.


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## [email protected] (Aug 13, 2017)

DTO said:


> Both in their early 40s. She has been married and divorced already.




I once dated a woman that was quick to finish where I am not. She had lots of experience and was ready anytime and wanted a lot of sex but she finished quick and then she was like a log just laid there. She was a beautiful woman face and body but really boring in bed and we were not married
I can tell you that a man with a woman is more appealing to other women that one without. So I stuck with her until I found someone else, as I remember around 3 months. 

I was coming out of a 9 yr marriage, I was 38 and knew what I wanted in a woman. Best advise guys be you male of female......don't settle, if you are married and in love try to work it out try really hard if you have children but you can't change people, I bet you wouldn't want someone changing you. 


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## appeal71 (Sep 5, 2017)

open351 said:


> I think I should have explained myself better. I do love her and she loves me. She never has said she wont have sex with me at any point, however her views on sex are nil given that she has had such bad experiences that its just taken a back seat in her life. In all other areas of our marriage we are happy however sex which is important is just a rather complicated subject for her. I know that at a point I may be forced to make a rather definitive decision on whether to stay or go however Id like to see if maybe some other form of resolution is possible or advice is available before I throw in the towel here.
> 
> Thanks :slap:


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