# Inhouse separation - no hope



## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

Hi,

This is my first post, I've been reading for a long time. 

We have 22yr marriage coming to an end, 3 sons still at home, my stbx is still living in the house in a different room. It is tough because we get along well enough, polite but distant, and yet he has no feeling. It is weird. I would have loved to see some passion many years, and some explanation for what is happening, but I doubt I will get any real closure. I won't beg anymore, it's too humiliating.

While not a saint, I have been a been a devoted wife of 22 yrs, have made every effort to support him, but found it did not go both ways. While I was open and resolved things, he has kept his cards close to his chest and sandbagged resentment toward me it would seem.

I don't think there is any other person, at least a PA, but I'm sure EAs galore. He has always got along better with women, a nice guy for sure, and now I've become the object of his hostility, albeit polite and civil.

We are culturally different, met when we were young, I was the first girl he ever kissed, and he had me on a pedestal. It was a recipe for disaster looking back. Looking back I had to compete with a romantic ideal and always fell short. I really need to get my life back. The last 10 yrs have been tough on my self esteem as he pulled away and withdrew.

What I have such a hard time with is having given so many years of my life, struggling, trying, making every effort to make a marriage work because I believed in it. I have followed him from his job changes, moved when I didn't want to for him, lived or endured rather his need to control his environment to the smallest detail (he is quite uptight about having things his way), and accepted his quirks and tried to focus at the best. 

In return he has not accepted me, and has focused on my faults. Early in our M I would, I had a temper, it was usually when he corrected something about the home, or some habit, and I would react strongly..it always felt so insanely controlling. I am and came from a laid back family. We are neat, but not uptight.

What I'm hoping for is some strength in maintaining the 180, regaining my self esteem and rebuilding my life. I'm so hurt, feel so betrayed and yet I cycle through denial and bargaining. I have been open that I do not want this, that M is for life and worth working for and protecting. He doesn't feel the same. I've not felt loved for years. 

Why hang on? I can't have him back truly unless he makes a commitment to us and is loving again. I have to be strong in this, but also need to be hopeful. But he is firm that it is over.

We both work, but he makes more than me. I stayed home for many years when the boys were young and did not build the earning power he did. He never had to take a sick day for the kids nor take them to a doctor/dentist apppointment: nothing. I did everything. I feel so angry about this, and used. 

So much to process, so much sadness, and don't know where to begin. I hope someone will at least tell me maybe there is hope, whatever it is. I love sex and like men, but so scared to go out there again and afraid of being hurt. Have gone through crying, and it does feel cleansing. It's been kind of relieving in a way not trying to get someone's love who won't give it. 

Started a DivorceCare group nearby, just need people to talk to who understand and have been or are going through the same. Sometimes I feel so sad about my future. I want to be positive and not feel that life is over. I want to live again.


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

I think what's hardest right now is living in a constant state of rejection and not letting it get to me. He just embodies rejection, polite, but rejecting. Eek.

I don't want to go out of my room, it gets to me. And of course I can't bring it up. Why? more rejection. Ugh.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

So why an in house separation, instead of just moving out?

C


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

Thanks for responding PBear. I was afraid my post would be too long..and scare away potential responders... 

Why not moved out? Because he has to have time to find something. And the finances of adding an apartment on top of our expenses. It's been very recent - only beginning of October. 

I have to toughen up and look to protect myself. I'm scared the denial will hurt me if I don't wake up from the fog. From what I understand the initiators have had it in their mind for quite some time, and protecting themselves is very natural for them.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Finances are a common reason to try an in house separation. But I haven't heard of many in here that have worked well. 

I'm the one that initiated the separation in my marriage, and yes, by the time I told my wife I was checked out of the marriage. Much further along than she could have been in the grieving process. That sucks, but it would be rare that both people would be at the same point when the subject of separation or divorce comes up.

C


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

How did your wife fare in the end? Did she get over you?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Wanttoliveagain said:


> How did your wife fare in the end? Did she get over you?


You'd have to ask her. . We've been separated now for almost 3 years, and things have been quite amicable. From what I heard, she had a rough first couple of months. But she's done a pretty good job of the "180", even if I don't think she knows what it is. The only time we talk, it's about the kids or house or something like that. She's never raised the subject of reconciliation, begged me to come back,nothing like that. Which has suited me just fine as well.

It WILL get better for you. Use the 180, not to try to change him, but to get separation to help you move on. You'll go through the same grieving process as people do for a loved one, but you will go through it. And there can be happiness on the other side of it,

Good luck!

C


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

I have so much to process. Although my parents were divorced, I feel so much shame at being a divorced woman. (no offense to anyone)

I attached so much of my identity to being his wife for 22 yrs. That's probably one of the biggest things to grieve. I don't really grieve him in many ways, as he really has not loved me for many years. We had sex always regularly, we work well together, we still share the cooking after work each day, buy groceries, do little serving things..etc. but the love isn't there on his end. Weirdest thing, and I don't know if I'll ever understand it. 

Tonight we watched a movie with the youngest son, and I can't sit next to him on the couch without cuddling. But he doesn't want to cuddle and I don't want to be rejected. So I sat on the other couch and read TAM on my phone for most of the movie then went to my room.

Ugh. I long for happiness. I hope I will be happy. I just started a new job this year and it's been going so well, already got a raise and a bonus - I don't want to lose my confidence over someone who doesn't love me anymore. 

180. I have to remember why this is good, beyond protecting me from humiliation, which could be reason enough. You said to get to separation to help me move on. I will think about that some more. I do understand the 180 and its improved my life considerably since I've tried it for the most part. 

Am also scared of being bitter and angry. I sooo don't want to go there. But I am angry. I wonder how much to allow myself to feel anger without letting it infect me.


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## Stretch (Dec 12, 2012)

Sorry you are in this situation. I think and hope one of the most encouraging things that will come out of this is that you will eventually understand your worth as a person. You will feel the strength and liberation of becoming an independent person. You will truly understand the foundation of the 180 that it is all about YOU.

15 months since my WAW dropped the bomb on me and I feel a tremendous optimism for the future in stark contrast to the pain and hurt at the beginning.

It is really so simple yet so very powerful, start living your life again, become the person you want to be.

Be strong, life is great if you let it be,
Stretch


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## LIMBOLADY (Aug 26, 2013)

I am so sorry you are here. It's a very difficult place to be.

I was in a similar situation with my STBXH. He checked out of the marriage a long time ago and by the time he told me there was nothing I could do to fix it. We lived in the same house for nearly a year, in separate bedrooms and did a lot of the stuff you describe. Still cooked dinner together, ate together, did activities with our boy's together, etc. It was not a fun time at all.

He moved out at the end of October and I have to say it is so much easier now. I don't have to see him everyday or talk to him everyday. Most of our conversations now are about our children. We are doing 50/50 custody.

It is great that you have a job now so you have that to focus on. Like you, I spent most of our marriage supporting his career so my ability to make a serious amount of money is also hindered. Have you talked about spousal support? 

I hope things get better for you. Keep coming here. This site was and still is tremendously helpful. The meet up group is a good idea also. I am doing the same thing.

Hang in there!


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

In-house separations are tough. Some people deal with them better than others but if there is any possibility of one of the parties moving out that's the easiest way. 

After trying an in-house separation for months my now ex-husband moved out. We are now happily divorced and finally friends. I didn't think we would ever get to that point.


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

LIMBOLADY said:


> It is great that you have a job now so you have that to focus on. Like you, I spent most of our marriage supporting his career so my ability to make a serious amount of money is also hindered. Have you talked about spousal support?
> 
> I hope things get better for you. Keep coming here. This site was and still is tremendously helpful. The meet up group is a good idea also. I am doing the same thing.
> 
> Hang in there!


Thanks LimboLady, and other responders. I didn't know there were responses I have set to be emailed when there are responses.

I saw a lawyer, and spousal support will be difficult where I live. There are ways though and I will fight if I have to for certain reasons I believe and my lawyer agrees am entitled to, mainly our shared business, but I won't say more than that. 

We've had a few talks, no arguing, it's a peaceful existence of pseudo-intimacy in that we have a lot in common in our day to day. He's shifted from he didn't feel cared about to owning that he was ambivalent for the last 4-5 years or more really. No wonder I had a tough time. 

Some updates on the 'me' side:

I've read Broken Heart on Hold, by Linda Rooks (it goes along with my faith) - that book is amazing for me. I keep going back to it, it's a sort of devotional style book. I have to be careful when I read it, one morning I couldn't stop crying because it hit home so deeply and dropped my son off to school late. Not everyone would agree with the faith-based nature of it, but I want to share it for those whom it may help as it has helped me find so much strength internally. 

I've read a dozen or more other books. I don't want to find love or acceptance from another person, I want it to come more deeply from myself and from God. Then I won't ever be shaken to the core like this again. No matter what happens in my Marriage, I want to be a stronger person from the inside.

I also picked up the Four agreements books ...Mastery of Love, etc. by Don M Ruiz. I read about Ruiz's books here on another thread. Love them!! they are amazing and so glad to have them now. 

I gave a boxed set of Ruiz's books to H for Christmas, I know that's not 180, I just want to do what I want to do. I'm not deluded into thinking it makes any difference. If we get divorced I will be a no contact kind of person. But as a married woman, I'm all in or all out. I can't be out when I'm married. Go ahead and give me advice if you want that this is the wrong approach, I'm open to other opinions. 

Christmas gifts were sadly funny to me, I gave a lot, a nice card (not too mushy, but heartfelt) and his stuff was so antiseptically detached. Sigh. I felt like he could have signed it Hey Dude! Have a great Xmas - H. To his wife of 22+ years and mother of our 3 amazing sons...sheesh. What is wrong with some people? sigh.

Like in the 4 agreements; don't take anything personally. It's about him, not me..or so I remind myself. 

I love this forum. I hope I can give back to others a shred of what I've gained from reading these posts. You are a source of strength and inspiration.


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

I should add a confession: I'm still trying. Is that wrong. I am still hanging on to hope, yet his actions really give none.

Argh. Why do I have such a hard time giving up the dream of the happy ending to this: of us rebuilding into something new and beautiful?

I can accept it wasn't beautiful for him in the past, and if he didn't love me it wasn't for me either. But I believe too much it seems that love is a decision and an action and something you can build together. We don't have any addictions, adultery, abuse or other big problems. Just a lot of disconnection and lack of true intimacy.

That can be built, no? I will keep coming back on TAM and keep filling in on this. Hope deferred makes the heart sick is a proverb, and is exactly the state of where I am at in life right now. 

Love you all and a wonderful holiday season to each of you on TAM. xo


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wanttoliveagain said:


> I can accept it wasn't beautiful for him in the past, and if he didn't love me it wasn't for me either. But I believe too much it seems that love is a decision and an action and something you can build together. We don't have any addictions, adultery, abuse or other big problems. Just a lot of disconnection and lack of true intimacy.
> 
> That can be built, no?


Happy holidays to you too.

It can be built, but at the end of the day, it takes 2 people wanting it.

As far as the marriage, besides the kids, what have you gotten out of it? 

What has he?

Anything to tell about your histories and FOO?


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Wanttoliveagain said:


> I should add a confession: I'm still trying. Is that wrong. I am still hanging on to hope, yet his actions really give none.
> 
> Argh. Why do I have such a hard time giving up the dream of the happy ending to this: of us rebuilding into something new and beautiful?
> 
> ...


The problem with hope is - the amount of hope you hold onto is in direct proportion to the pain you will feel when that hope is dashed. Hope also keeps you in limbo and unable to move forward. 

At some point you have to let go.

You are correct that intimacy can be rebuilt... but it takes both of you to do it.



Wanttoliveagain said:


> I believe too much it seems that love is a decision and an action and something you can build together


This is exactly right! Unfortunately, in this age of romance novels, movies, and television most do not understand that. They think it is just something you are supposed to magically 'feel' all the time without putting any effort whatsoever into it.


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

Tron said:


> As far as the marriage, besides the kids, what have you gotten out of it?
> 
> What has he?
> 
> Anything to tell about your histories and FOO?


Hi Tron

Besides the kids, I have 'gotten' nearly a quarter century of happy memories, love, devotion, happy times, crazy times, stupid decisions, smart decisions, hard work, dedication, frustration, heartache, fights, laughter, hugs, comfort, respect, disrespect.....basically what I expect from life when you live with another human being for any length of time.

What has he gotten? I'd have to ask him. He tends to focus on the negative, and feels he hasn't felt loved for many years, but then he switched that to he hasn't loved me, or rather, has been 'ambivalent' for the past number of years. I can't seem to ever be enough, or give enough, yet I keep trying. I wonder if he's a narcissist, but he does give. Not really sure what's wrong here..I have stopped taking his complaints personally, before they would affect my self-esteem, now I see it more clearly as it's about him.

Lots to tell about our histories, and FOO.

We're having a 'talk' tomorrow. Maybe we'll have a separation to help him figure himself out. I'll keep you posted.

FOO: he lived a very conservative, strict and dutiful upbringing. From an eastern culture. Family was well to do in the old country, both parents came from doctor's families, but difficult after coming here. He is youngest of siblings, and a lot of responsibility was on him to be there for his mother, especially after his father passed away. He never had much freedom to be himself and do the things he wanted..and then he met me. Looking back I think marriage was the acceptable 'escape' to be able to be his own person from the needs of his mother. It seemed he couldn't just move out and live with a bunch of guys, while I lived on my own from 18 on..I was the first girl he dated, he was the umpteenth guy I dated. We were young, but I knew what I wanted. I trusted he did too....naive on my part I guess.

I'm from a bohemian, easy-going family. My mother was poor and became wealthy. My father came from a well-known doctor's family, was sent to boarding school and rejected the upper class lifestyle for a blue collar lifestyle. My parents adopted my siblings and I, and then divorced. My siblings and I today are very close and grateful to have each other to the point it's tough to understand. Water is thicker than blood kind of relationship. Brother and sister are insisting I be with them for my birthday in 2 days, which is an 8-hr drive, and which I will make to be with people who love and accept me. 2 of my sons are coming to spend time with their cousins. H is working anyway, and other son is working too. So all is good.

I love him, believe marriage is for life. Not sure what will happen. Maybe it's all over. I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet, until it's truly over. We'll see. Maybe we are too different. But I don't really believe that after what we've been through. I think it's a low point on the satisfaction scale: kids, hard work, etc. but we can make it through. 

We both claim to have love; he just doesn't 'feel' it right now. That would seem to be something we can get through imo.

Love you and thanks for letting me get this out, if anyone reads it, it's a bonus.


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> At some point you have to let go.
> 
> You are correct that intimacy can be rebuilt... but it takes both of you to do it.


Agreed, Honorbound. Not sure how long I will hold out or this can last.

We're having a talk tomorrow. Will see how it goes. He hinted that he might need some time to be himself, maybe 2 months, then perhaps we can try rejoining in the same room again. Or maybe we're done.

We're living each day being a family since early October. No one is out trying to have an outside romance, or tied to their phone having EAs or anything. That gives me hope that all is not lost, but we can't go on like this forever.

After tomorrow, I'm leaving for a few days. I would much rather spend it snuggled up with him, being in love, etc. but that is not going to happen.

I will let go when either 1.my 'deal breakers' get broken or 2. it gets too draining and/or toxic to keep hanging on.

So far not there yet.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Does he suffer from depression?

You said things changed with him 4 or 5 years ago. Was there anything specific that may have triggered his withdrawal? Loss of a loved one, possible affair, anything you can put your finger on?


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

Tron said:


> Does he suffer from depression?
> 
> You said things changed with him 4 or 5 years ago. Was there anything specific that may have triggered his withdrawal? Loss of a loved one, possible affair, anything you can put your finger on?


Ah, unraveling a long M .. not easy to do. Where do the problems lay? Was it this fight or misunderstanding or that one? Is it this character flaw of mine or that one of his? ...I don't know. I'm not sure I ever will. 

If he suffers from depression, he is highly functional. He suffers from a chronic negative pessimistic outlook since I've known him. But he's smart, interesting, charming and has other qualities. So that's the better and for worse part of M to me. He uses 'always' and 'never' when complaining about me or our M as a general rule, making it tough to work things out as problems get bigger when painted with an 'always' brush.

I believe at the end of the day, if our M ends, it will be due to his negative belief system driving the final nail in the coffin. Is that depression, ? maybe. 

What happened 4 years ago, I would think accumulated resentment toward me that went unexpressed. Our oldest son had a job, and I had helped him find it. It wasn't close enough to our house and he needed a ride. I supported it, but H didn't. Right there was the problem. I didn't realize how much H was against it, and that was a big mistake. You can all rail into me for this mistake I've made, but trust me I've done enough penance and groveling and apologizing to make up a hundredfold. I am very sorry...so let's move on.

The 4 year thing: So one night I asked, why doesn't he ever pick up our son from work? (in a respectful voice). H shut down, a dark expression grew on his face, and he wouldn't answer. Then I pressed for a simple answer to the question. If he didn't want to ever pick up our son from work, fine - but I wanted at least an answer. To me, it is disrespectful to ignore someone and not answer their question? So I pressed, and followed him into another room when he wouldn't answer, and he flipped. So I backed down, said I was sorry, went to pick up our son, and when we returned he had moved out - no warning, nothing. I should of put the pieces together, and later I did, he was majorly resentful that I had helped our son get that job in the first place.

After he moved out, we had a 1 month separation, and then in order to reunite I agreed to a list of what I had to do for him to come back. He blamed, too much dog hair, cleaning (while I was trying to start a career that he had been supported in 100% by me for the past 15 yrs, not losing my temper... etc.None of this was major stuff mind you. So I agreed, and I can be proud to say I've upheld every item consistently 4 years later. But the old patterns resurfaced of new things he took issue with, this time again he was resentful again, and this time, I also became resentful (because my anger turned inward since I couldn't release it). I didn't forgive his leaving and blaming the first time. So that was not good, but I own it and will work to not allow resentments to build again.

I'm sort of doing the 180, at the beginning there was too much reaching out, asking for reassurances, sending material by email on why and how we can fix things, etc. etc. I have made it abundantly clear I believe our issues our not worth divorcing over, and if he believes a separation is needed in order to heal or gain perspective, I would support it. It's been extremely painful living in limbo, but I'm doing more growth than I ever have. For that I am grateful. 

His reasons just don't line up...saying we are incompatible at 22 years after all the things we've gone through, 3 amazing sons, ups downs, etc, it doesn't make sense. If he has a fantasy female lined up, well maybe it does. He'd have to be getting together online, as he is either working or here, maybe .. whatever. At this point I don't care, I want him exposed for what / who he is if that's the case. 

He has a tendency to accumulate resentments and unexpressed anger. That would be a pattern for sure.

I have had a tendency to push too hard, be too demanding when I want something. It was often for the kids, but I've learned to tone down a lot over the years, to the point I've become the stuffer in the last few years. Not good, and I am working to maintain a balance of being a calm yet honest direct person again. Saying things once, and letting them go. Learning to really listen and be fully present when someone is speaking. I've come a long way and am proud of myself.

H is a conflict-avoidant person, I'm sure he's found the frequency and intensity of our disagreements more than he was comfortable with. At our young ages when we got married, our communication skills were lacking to be certain.

He states he likes harmony. OK - what is harmony? To him, and what I see from his FOO, it is avoiding conflict for the sake of a pseudo-harmony, while frustration, hurt and other negative emotions simmer unresolved indefinitely under the surface. Harmony to me is bringing up problems until they are resolved so that we can reach a level of mutual understanding and live in true peace. 

So maybe we are incompatible, but I don't believe it. The issue of 'harmony' could be explored and understood, changes made on both sides, intimacy deepened. And the journey of life would go on...That's how I see it. Growth, learning, mutual acceptance, evolution - together.

I will live by my convictions, not be led by my feelings. I don't believe in divorce and breaking up a family for the reasons he gives. All are fixable. So he will have to end it. I will keep the door open and go on with my life for now.

This is out of my hands so I will continue to work on myself and grow in 2014.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

It appears that you have a relatively healthy outlook on M and how to deal with conflict. Him...not so much. 

Pursuing him to discuss things is not out of line. I admit that sometimes I am not ready to discuss things immediately when they pop up, but if that is the case it is better to ask for a break to think about it than to just shut down. 

IMO, conflict and resentment needs to be dealt with as it occurs or soon thereafter. If it doesn't it will, as you say, build and create bigger problems. 

I am gathering that your H had issues in his childhood. The all or nothing comments, one extreme or the other are indicative. 

What is up with his FOO?

Have you done therapy?


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## KnottedStomach (Sep 19, 2013)

I don't have much to add here, as I too am going through an in house separation. And it is tough. After having a few good months, I now have fallen back into the pit of pain. All I can tell you is to hang in there, take it one day at a time, sometimes even one hour at a time. It will get better.


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## Why Not Be Happy? (Apr 16, 2010)

I read through quickly (may have missed it)----Marriage Counseling?
Sounds like you guys could use it.....lots of communication issues.


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

Tron said:


> IMO, conflict and resentment needs to be dealt with as it occurs or soon thereafter. If it doesn't it will, as you say, build and create bigger problems.
> 
> I am gathering that your H had issues in his childhood. The all or nothing comments, one extreme or the other are indicative.
> 
> ...


Re: childhood issues: Yes I think he did. I'm no psychologist, but if I had to guess, I think he has a LOT of repressed anger. He moved to another country at the age of 6, his country of origin was a major target of racism in North America at the time. He endured a LOT of abuse in his formative years in elementary school. He has not allowed himself to share with me the extent of pain and humiliation he endured. I believe there might be a lot linked to this.

His FOO was very patriarchal, and his father didn't typically get involved with kids until they reached their teens. Raising young children was woman's work. As was cleaning, etc. Lots of things there. Women didn't question anything, to the point his mother lived with a (in his view) self-centred SIL in their home for a number of years, and they catered life around her. H heard and saw all the (hidden) resentment from his mother, and has felt very protective of her. Definitely a pattern of hidden resentment. To this day, in 22 yrs I've not heard my MIL say one kind thing about her deceased husband. She complains about things, but doesn't quite insult directly. To me that's resentment. My mother can say nothing but good things about her H, so it stands out to me.

H's father died when he was 16, so he really only had 3 decent years with him. Before that he longed for the approval and acceptance of an aloof and critical father from what I understand of what he's told me. H does not make friends with men easily to this day, but it's getting better. Even his older brother, - he stays in touch regularly with his older sister and mother. Having 3 sons now has probably brought some things to the surface, and it would seem he is going through a mid-life crisis of sorts, calling them 'dude', wearing younger clothes, insisting on his 'freedom' (like I've ever prevented it....) sigh.

I have a lot of compassion for him through all of this, but do not know how nor believe it is my place to fix it.

Therapy: I've done my fair share, it was one condition for him to come back 4.5 yrs ago. I've since gone back again to process what is happening now. I'm going back to church and volunteering too. 

I might try to push him for therapy, but pushing anything has not bode well in our M. I do deeply care for him, and love him warts and all, but maybe this is too big. Thank you for your questions Tron. Maybe I should be blunt and ask him to consider help? I'm open to input, as am a major loss what to do now.


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

Why Not Be Happy? said:


> I read through quickly (may have missed it)----Marriage Counseling?
> Sounds like you guys could use it.....lots of communication issues.


I agree. He has to have enough 'hope' that anything could work. Until he does, he doesn't want to do marriage counselling.

But we both agree that if we were to work on things, marriage counselling would be essential.


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

KnottedStomach said:


> I don't have much to add here, as I too am going through an in house separation. And it is tough. After having a few good months, I now have fallen back into the pit of pain. All I can tell you is to hang in there, take it one day at a time, sometimes even one hour at a time. It will get better.


Thanks Knotted, I don't know if you are spiritual person or not, but I'm praying a lot through this. 

Even last night, at 3 am I woke up with a feeling of dread and fear about my life, the kids, etc. After frustrated tossing and turning, I prayed and cried until I felt calm again and could go back to sleep. I'm praying for the hard wall around my H's heart to soften and break. I will wait a long time for this if I have to. 

I am growing to believe more and more strongly that no matter what happens, I am a treasured, cherished and loved child of God (or the universe or whatever you believe). Probably too much religion for this forum, but my reignited faith is seriously helping me cope each day.

Each day, one day at a time...
My prayers to you also. Does your situation offer you any hope? Are you in communication or both in agreement to divorce at the end?


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

Are you absolutely certain there isn't another woman involved? Have you checked phone records or anything?


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

karole said:


> Are you absolutely certain there isn't another woman involved? Have you checked phone records or anything?


Before when we went through this I did. Nothing really. He has lots of women business contacts/friends, and I'd expect emotional affairs, as the zero communication seems to not even phase him. 

And yes I'm snooping where I can: receipts, car garbages, trunks, bedrooms, pockets. I've discovered he's bought a car (which was the original plan) but hiding it from me was not. Outright lied he bought a car too. I'm watching.

I should get back onto the cellphone records, I don't have the password to our family plan. He's not texting too much, but may have some long email romances, etc. He's here most of the time when not at work, and trying to be a great involved dad. And working out, which seems legit as he has smelly clothes when he's back from the gym, etc. Nothing weird in the gym bag either.

At this point, if he does, I don't know if I care honestly. He's not worth fighting for in that case, cheating is a deal breaker to me. I'd expose it to everyone, and he'd lose face with his sons, and I think he cares too much about that. 

Maybe I should know in order to fully detach? He adamantly says this is not about anyone else, (I've even been really relaxed about it if it is, just tell me...).


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## KnottedStomach (Sep 19, 2013)

Wanttoliveagain said:


> Thanks Knotted, I don't know if you are spiritual person or not, but I'm praying a lot through this.
> 
> Even last night, at 3 am I woke up with a feeling of dread and fear about my life, the kids, etc. After frustrated tossing and turning, I prayed and cried until I felt calm again and could go back to sleep. I'm praying for the hard wall around my H's heart to soften and break. I will wait a long time for this if I have to.
> 
> ...


Hold on to whatever you can hold on to, to get through this tough time in your life. And know that once you get through it, you will be a stronger person.

I would also say focus on the 180. Making you a happier person for you. And focus on your children. 

I would stop thinking about why he wants a separation, if there is another woman, etc. In the end it doesn't matter. And knowing as well as not knowing isn't going to change anything.

Well I am filing for the D. Have to get on that. I wanted to work things out, but he did not want to. And although he didn't say he wanted the separation/divorce, his actions stated otherwise, so I took the initiative. Although it is painful for me, I am trying to do what is best for me. I think I deserve to be happy. Divorce however does not mean the end for my husband, he states that quite often.

Lately, we have been getting along in the house. Have been friendly. Sometimes we even sit down and watch movies together and talk. It feels weird for me, but he says he is okay with it, that he has moved past the relationship. I think for us, it's too late to work things out. There is just too much that has gone on. 

He has agreed to move out by the end of April. I have to make sure he sticks to that.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Wanttoliveagain said:


> Re: childhood issues: Yes I think he did. I'm no psychologist, but if I had to guess, I think he has a LOT of repressed anger. He moved to another country at the age of 6, his country of origin was a major target of racism in North America at the time. He endured a LOT of abuse in his formative years in elementary school. He has not allowed himself to share with me the extent of pain and humiliation he endured. I believe there might be a lot linked to this.
> 
> His FOO was very patriarchal, and his father didn't typically get involved with kids until they reached their teens. Raising young children was woman's work. As was cleaning, etc. Lots of things there. Women didn't question anything, to the point his mother lived with a (in his view) self-centred SIL in their home for a number of years, and they catered life around her. H heard and saw all the (hidden) resentment from his mother, and has felt very protective of her. Definitely a pattern of hidden resentment. To this day, in 22 yrs I've not heard my MIL say one kind thing about her deceased husband. She complains about things, but doesn't quite insult directly. To me that's resentment. My mother can say nothing but good things about her H, so it stands out to me.
> 
> ...


Your husband's family is very simliar to mine in a lot of ways.

You have written thoughtfully, even beautifully. How can your husband not appreciate you. Perhaps your intelligence bores him now. I do not think he is willing to open up inside under the status quo.

You should check the phone records to make certain that he is not cheating. You could also VAR his car.

Once you file for D he may change. If you do D, you should keep doing the 180. He knows you want your relationship more than he does. You need to change that imbalance of power.

What do your sons know? What do they think about him?


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> You should check the phone records to make certain that he is not cheating. You could also VAR his car.
> 
> Once you file for D he may change. If you do D, you should keep doing the 180. He knows you want your relationship more than he does. You need to change that imbalance of power.
> 
> What do your sons know? What do they think about him?


Thanks LW. Today is last day of holiday before going back to work next week, lots of me time 

I will check phone records, he's upgrading my phone, and I've asked for the new password on the cell plan as the old one doesn't work now for some reason. I'll get that done this weekend.

He's not in the car that much, as drives a short distance to the train station, then takes it to work. I have an app and may slip my ipad into the car to listen as a VAR one day though.

I don't want to file for D. I don't believe in it. I'm stubborn and won't go against my convictions. I do believe in D if there is a good reason. So far he hasn't given me one. Incompatibility? Loves me but not in love? Those as reasons to divorce are pathetic and weak. All fixable. Not easy, but fixable.

It's strange, but the pattern in our R has been he is passive, waits or asks me to make a decision, hates it and complains about it after, and is resentful about it. I think if I push or make D happen the same pattern will apply. I want him to man up and make the call. Own it. Feel the guilt. Be the bad guy. Blow up the family for stupid reasons and live with the consequences. 

Why does it matter if he knows I want the relationship more than him? I'm not being argumentative, I'm being sincere. I am not repeating myself everyday, I don't know nor want to play games.

I want to live by my values: honesty, integrity, respect, acceptance. I respect his need for separation/space, and am giving it. I am cordial, civil and am living my life even though imo while being a 'nice guy', the fact he's not loving and ignoring his wife is the giant elephant dung in the room that we're all quietly sidestepping around. 

The boys are enduring it. We all hope for the best, but they know their father and when he says something he means it. So they don't have a lot of hope. The 2 older ones just want to move out as soon as the can. Dinners are awkwardly civil, with some sad glances, especially the oldest, a bit the middle son too. Attempts at normal conversation with some jokes at times are made. 

The youngest is a big fan of his dad, and thankfully oblivious mostly. Youngest adores his oldest brother too, so I don't know if H realizes how much damage he is doing to his relationship with his sons. He may be surprised if he follows through on this.

Had a heart to heart with oldest son on drive home from holidays - just the 2 of us. I don't want to poison them in any way, but they know my heart is breaking, they've seen me cry too many times. They know I love their father to pieces and would want nothing more than to reconcile. But there's nothing any of us can do.

Oldest son admitted that he is afraid to call his dad out on this, although he thinks it very wrong. He said he's afraid he will be cut off/shut out if he speaks the truth. Sadly that's the legacy H is leaving with his kids, they won't be honest, will toe the line to get what they can. Oldest son said too that he thinks youngest brother will grow to turn against his father when he gets older. That's what he's seen his friends do when the fathers have left their mothers. Young men have good ideals and beliefs about M it seems. I'm proud of them and they have been raised well.

If you could give me a reason to D, I would. I won't do it to manipulate or bring change about in H. I just don't believe in it. Always open to debate if I'm missing something


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

And to add, if he is having an affair, I want him to own that too. No more letting him off easy, I expect him to be a man - including being open and honest. So either he's divorcing for ridiculous reasons, or divorcing because he has someone else, or we work on reconciliation. His call. All out in the open for all to see.

He said the limbo is getting difficult for him - hmmm - what will he do about it? I'm willing to wait a very long time if I have to for the truth to be revealed if it is OW. H has a lot of moral 'integrity' and it would be very hard for him to be viewed as a cheater, especially by his sons and his mother. But maybe I'm wrong? All good, I will respond, not react. And I will believe in his good character until I have a reason not to.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Health?

Sex life?


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

Tron said:


> Health?
> 
> Sex life?


Health: we both work out regularly. I'm a jogger, probably could put on a bit more weight at the moment. He works out at the gym and in the basement at times with the boys. I bought him p90x one year, he did that for awhile but now the boys do it more. We're all in good shape.

Sex: This has always bugged me. Really bugged me. I am high drive, could do it every day in every way, very happy go lucky. Every week, 1-2 times, I wanted it more than him...especially during later years. Amazing what being easy going and not holding resentment can do to a sex drive. Him? He punishes by withholding. 

It's sick to me that I could actually have sex with him now (but I wouldn't because it would be hurtful to my self-esteem). I think I don't fully comprehend how much he doesn't love me, or I wouldn't want him. Denial can be a b*tch. He's being so 'moral' that he won't do the wrong thing by having sex with a wife he doesn't love in the way he should. Wow. (yes that is sarcasm folks).

Yes it all points to an affair, I know I know.. Maybe I'll find out soon enough, and you TAMMERS will be updated for sure ...

You can all give it to me straight. I'm at such a loss about my life, and dreading going back to work and keeping it all together again.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wanttoliveagain said:


> Sex: This has always bugged me. Really bugged me. I am high drive, could do it every day in every way, very happy go lucky. Every week, 1-2 times, I wanted it more than him...especially during later years. Amazing what being easy going and not holding resentment can do to a sex drive. Him? He punishes by withholding.





Wanttoliveagain said:


> It's strange, but the pattern in our R has been he is passive, waits or asks me to make a decision, hates it and complains about it after, and is resentful about it. I think if I push or make D happen the same pattern will apply. I want him to man up and make the call. Own it. Feel the guilt. Be the bad guy. Blow up the family for stupid reasons and live with the consequences.


I am not a therapist, but these two things plus the issues with your son's job and the fact that you would like him to be more of a leader, to man up, take initiative, be less passive, indicate a power struggle in your M. 

The sex life issues you mentioned specifically could be a number of things (1) an affair, (2) has LD, ED or low testosterone or (3) this is just his way of exhibiting/establishing control in a M where he has little. 

Not going to rule out an A, but I am leaning towards control/power.

Unless there is an A going on, these things are workable in MC.

What do you think?


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

Tron said:


> (3) this is just his way of exhibiting/establishing control in a M where he has little.
> 
> Not going to rule out an A, but I am leaning towards control/power.
> 
> ...


I agree with (3). That hits home big time. He has been described as controlling by many over many years. Inflexible is the word, even by close friends.

The part I disagree with is "in a M where he has little". I would change that to be "in a M where he perceived he had little".

Today he has tons of control. Lots and lots. Everything revolves around him, his needs, wishes, wants and desires. 

In the past he had quite a bit, I went along with a lot of his crazy schemes, (moving, leaving jobs, not moving home when kids were little bc didn't suit him) etc. I started to stand up for myself about year 8-10 and those are the things he still brings up in how we aren't compatible. From 10+ years ago. 

Also he believes that I talked too much and didn't listen in our conversations and arguments, and he is angry about that. And sometimes raged and yelled. I have fully accepted responsibility and am working to listen more and say less. I definitely don't lose my temper anymore. I don't always do it perfectly, but I am working very hard on this. I believe it will make me better in a new relationship if not this one, so am grateful for the honest truth.

I don't think there is a power struggle now. But there was one earlier in our M. I don't think he expected M would involve a struggle or compromise maybe. I think he expected his way would rule and I'd silently seethe and go along. According to his FOO I guess. He denies he wanted a M like his parents, but I'm not so sure.. I've tried, but I can't recreate something for him that I did not grow up with.


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

And yes I think everything can be worked out in MC. For as long as it takes. But I think he's given up.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wanttoliveagain said:


> I agree with (3). That hits home big time. He has been described as controlling by many over many years. Inflexible is the word, even by close friends.
> 
> The part I disagree with is "in a M where he has little". I would change that to be "in a M where he perceived he had little".


Ahhh, unfortunately, that perception is his "reality". 




Wanttoliveagain said:


> Today he has tons of control. Lots and lots. Everything revolves around him, his needs, wishes, wants and desires.


And is he still unhappy?




Wanttoliveagain said:


> Also he believes that I talked too much and didn't listen in our conversations and arguments, and he is angry about that. And sometimes raged and yelled. I have fully accepted responsibility and am working to listen more and say less. I definitely don't lose my temper anymore. I don't always do it perfectly, but I am working very hard on this. I believe it will make me better in a new relationship if not this one, so am grateful for the honest truth.


:smthumbup:

He should do the same. 




Wanttoliveagain said:


> I don't think there is a power struggle now. But there was one earlier in our M. I don't think he expected M would involve a struggle or compromise maybe. I think he expected his way would rule and I'd silently seethe and go along. According to his FOO I guess. He denies he wanted a M like his parents, but I'm not so sure.. I've tried, but I can't recreate something for him that I did not grow up with.


Like you say, it sounds like, despite the fact that it wasn't a great marriage, he has subconsciously tried to recreate the relationship he experienced between his mom and dad. 

It wasn't healthy and pleasurable for his mother... So, even if you could recreate it for him, why would you ever want to?


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## karole (Jun 30, 2010)

The "I love you, but I'm Not in Love With You" speech almost always means they have someone else. Just go read in the Coping With Infidelity Forum. Almost everyone posting there got the same speech.


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

Tron said:


> Ahhh, unfortunately, that perception is his "reality".
> 
> *Yes that's true. I know it's his reality has nothing to do with me.
> *
> ...


I'm not sure that's what he wants. It's a guess. My question in our talks is around what he wants. What kind of marriage do we want to recreate? We're supposed to have that talk this weekend. Not sure if he'll make any effort. Maybe we aren't compatible. But I want us to go there before detonating a bomb and blowing up a beautiful family after 22yrs.

If he wants affairs, or me to shut up and put up, his parents marriage, or whatever, I want us to get that out in the open. What does he want? What does a satisfactory relationship look like to him? Maybe I can't deliver - I'm open to that possibility. So far I'm not getting enough info.

I've written to him in a letter what I want: benefit of the doubt thinking, gratitude, mercy etc. I've owned where I haven't done this. I don't want to be accused and blamed and not forgiven for misdemeanours in a M. It would be a deal breaker. But I've expressed all this, now it's up to him.


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

karole said:


> The "I love you, but I'm Not in Love With You" speech almost always means they have someone else. Just go read in the Coping With Infidelity Forum. Almost everyone posting there got the same speech.


True. If he's having an affair, I can accept that. Until I do I have to trust his integrity and his words, while I verify. If he is, his kids will know, his family will know, and if it's a work relationship, they will know. His decision to be a lowlife sleazeball will be out in the open for all to see. I'll joyously skip singing a merry tune to the courthouse for a divorce dreaming of the day I can be rid of him. I don't respect liars and cheats. I've shown him a lot of respect to this day. In fact that's one thing he credits me with; that he hasn't felt loved, but he has felt respected through our M. That will be gone in a heartbeat if he's cheating.

I have loved him like crazy too, but the fact he hasn't felt it - not sure it's problem with sender or receiver?

Give me a clue on what it takes to feel loved and I'm all ears and action. Somehow I think it's spin.


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

I have to say purging this stuff online is cathartic. So thankful for the forum to vent and get these feelings and thoughts out.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You are very eloquent. What sort of education and work do you have? Is your husband your equal? 

Does the culture of his homeland look down on divorce?

Your husband doesn't mind living with resentment. That is a psychological pattern of dysfunction.


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

Ah LW, at a period in life when I feel like total crap, your compliment is leaving me swooning . Feel so starved for positives right now, I don't think I'll go anywhere near dating. Not until I recover my self-esteem after the battering this M has put me through.

Education: we're both university educated. No advanced degrees. Yes he is very much my equal. He is smarter, much more accomplished in his career, responsible, a great catch. I've always been so proud of him in so many ways. If I may, I venture to say I have more emotional intelligence. I think he can be emotionally immature sometimes. Suppose we all are depending on which buttons get pressed?

Culture is Muslim, but when I met him we were both Christians. Quite fundamental too . Culturewise, his mother was open to being a second wife in a marriage here in NA (and hiding it). I'm talking about the 2 wives being alive and in a marriage to a man at the same time. She didn't but he said she seemed so happy with the guy. He never divulged that to me that until after 19 yrs of marriage. Hid it, as he assumed (correctly) that I would have really reconsidered marrying him in the beginning at the stark contrast of our FOOs. So he has definitely hid things from me that I might not have accepted. Divorce, they are as open as other cultures I think. Proportionally more males are divorced on his side than on mine.

Yes, I will reflect about the last sentence you wrote. That may be a psychological pattern that is too great for me to break or endure.

Off to take care of home and hearth now. ttyl


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wanttoliveagain said:


> Give me a clue on what it takes to feel loved and I'm all ears and action. Somehow I think it's spin.


I don't know how your conversations go.

What it takes to feel loved is actually surprisingly easy to figure out. Gotta be a little aware and know what you are looking for.

Go read the 5 Love Languages and His Needs Her Needs. There is also a questionnaire that goes hand in hand with one of them. 

You will find out pretty quickly what you do and don't respond to. 

I will also reiterate what Karole said, that if there is a POSOW, this is all academic. It is good learning, so it won't be a waste of your time either way. 

Longwalk has also indicated that based upon how you describe your H and the way he communicates and holds grudges, he exhibits patterns of psychological dysfunction. I agree. You will find quite a few of us are or have been in the same boat. I can't speak for Longwalk or your H, but many of us can and have worked our way out of it.


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

Tron said:


> Go read the 5 Love Languages and His Needs Her Needs. There is also a questionnaire that goes hand in hand with one of them.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Read 5 LLs, he is acts of service, appreciation, thoughtfulness. I've been trying. H actually said he doesn't want me to use the term Acts of Kindness anymore, as it kills it for him (feels like it's not authentic or something??) 

I'm physical affection, appreciation and time together.

The dysfunction and working out of it...are you talking about yourself having worked out of it, or having worked out of a relationship where your partner was that way?

Please describe if /when you have time if you can. Thanks!!


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

So we had an evening tonight. 

H bought me a beer, we had pizza and watched a movie. Middle son joined us a bit into it.

We're working together, our hot water heater broke, I arranged to have it fixed, the plumber is coming tomorrow. H is taking care of furnace, has to clear snow off roof to let it vent, and is buying poison to put in attic because of mice. (We live out in country).

I confronted him with some gentle honesty, he said he is ready to talk on Sunday. I said I want it on his timeframe, he said he's done some thinking about the 'what it would take' type of talk. I want to start practicing some what if thinking, instead of the past focus on problems. Yes, we agree we don't like the past. Fine. But what do we like? So we'll see. And we're supposed to go out for a light hearted coffee/or lunch dinner depending on when he gets his haircut appointment. We'll see. No high hopes. Baby steps and a teensy possibility of a wee little connection.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Want,

I am 55, father to two teen girls 18 and 16. I did not understand that was dysfunctional until I came to TAM. I have university education, so the intellectual part of understanding came to me after reading on TAM. Therapy would have worked, but who has the time and money for it? Reading on the Internet is easy but painful.

You wonder whether a dsyfunctional husband can be turned round. I think so. Depends on the person. You need the carrot and stick. Divorce and 180 are the sticks, although the 180 is to protect yourself, so it is missused if treated a communications tool regularly.

What you desire is for a light bulb to go off in his head. I guess the self-help literature could do it. But he has to read it.

The sex issue is a big thing for men. If he has sex but doesn't love you that is horrible. But sex is obviously a way to reconnect. 

Women want men to be leaders but they don't want them to be selfish jerks.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

How did it go Wantto?


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## hopeful101 (Nov 6, 2013)

I can relate to so much of your situation. You have much more patience and tolerance than I do. We have children so I wanted to not have to actually throw my husband out, but I couldn't stand the blatant communication with his EA. I finally lost it and asked him to leave. 

I also didn't want to let go. I still really don't, but honestly after telling him to get out and now thinking of moving on with my own life, it's better. I feel better. There is actually a huge sense of relief instead of anxiety and despair. 

As with the last post in this thread - it takes 2 - and I agree if the other partner isn't willing to try then it can't work. I had to come to that realization. I've been asking for counseling and he refuses. I can't fix OUR marriage on my own. No one can.


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

Tron said:


> How did it go Wantto?


Heartbreakingly bad. 

I have broken the 'rules', by trying to share my hope, and express reasons and encourage 'talks' to see what it would take to have hope.

Bottom line: he states he has Zero hope, and DOES NOT love me. Nada. Done. Doesn't want to try. Doesn't want to have a separation with any option to reconcile after.

I'm needing desperately to work on myself. 

We made a sort of 'Controlled Separation' - timelines, finances, workload, etc. but we need to see a mediator soon to turn into legal separation (his request - and if anyone turns weird, should be mine too). I have legal counsel. We want to stick it out with inhouse separation until the house sells (something we had agreed to do before this all hit the fan). 

Selling the house would likely take until the summer earliest. He adamantly does not want to move out. (custody stuff).

There were tears, some more communication, but it doesn't matter. I must detach for my own emotional wellbeing. To not do so will kill me inside.

We had dinner tonight, the oldest overheard some of our talk yesterday, it's tough. I did get upset and challenged him to move out, as it's unhealthy for him to be the way he is - not loving his wife and not wanting to try while living at home with the kids. He doesn't want to. He may with a legal separation in place where joint custody is assured.

I'm not sure how I'll make it through this. Will keep you posted. We get along surprisingly well, and show a lot of respect, do things. If I could just lose my love for him, we'd be like weird roomates...

I don't know how unhealthy this is for me, and maybe should be more concerned. I don't want to move out though. Stubborn me. Won't do it. Wasn't my idea, don't agree, so not moving. Ugh. Worst time I've ever lived through in my life. Will go to bed early tonight and have a good cry and prayer.

xo


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## Wanttoliveagain (Nov 2, 2013)

hopeful101 said:


> I also didn't want to let go. I still really don't, but honestly after telling him to get out and now thinking of moving on with my own life, it's better. I feel better. There is actually a huge sense of relief instead of anxiety and despair.


I'm thinking it may be impossible to reach any relief state while living together. Would that be obvious to everyone here? Has anyone reached any state of decent mental health while doing inhouse separation? 

It's largely financial for me, so if that can be protected, maybe...

I'm crying a lot when I'm alone. A lot. It's tough. Digging deep. Anxiety and despair is accurate. I know I've mentioned the Broken Heart on Hold book in previous post but that book is helping tremendously.

I struggle with thinking things can be better, this kind of scares me and I wonder if there is something wrong with me.

When we were in love it was so great...I can't seem to let go of that being possible. It was everything I wanted, not perfect, but everything. And 3 amazing sons to boot. A beautiful family. 

I have a hard time replacing that dream with 'something' better, even though the present is the closest thing to hell I've ever imagined.

Loving again is the hardest thing I can imagine. Loving this much hurts sooo soo bad. I have prayed for my heart to turn to stone. I hate hurting.

xo


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Really tough. Hopefully if custody is assured he will be willing to move. How about you? Would you like a new environment? How will things look if you sell the house? If you have 50/50 custody how things look economically?


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