# Scumbag here



## Cletus

In the general relationship forum, this happened. I guess I feel like starting a discussion about it. Some sort of abuse gene, I guess. 



Middle of Everything said:


> Hey she apologized. Like you said dont need to ride her too hard.


And I'm not. I just want to be one of those few posters here who puts a face on "scumbag". If you want to humanize the insult, here I am. If you want to consider me a "scumbag", do it to my face and support your position. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong, but I might counter some of your (the generic "your", not you personally) preconceived notions about these "scumbags". 

People in my position are generally afraid to speak up here because of the blowback. My internet baptism was in the wild west of unmoderated usenet. My skin is thick enough to take it. 



> I think you are a great contributor here and seem like a good guy. Also from what I remember you have a quite LD wife that has caused a lot of pain.


Thank you. There is nuance in everything. 



> But dont let that make you feel you can go off on someone calling an adulterer a scumbag. As you said that may be a little black and white, but its not like one trips and their d!ck falls in another womans vagina. Own it.


If you call me a "scumbag" by definition without any knowledge of me personally, I think I have the right to say what I did, which was mild. I want you to think about what you're saying and to whom you're saying it. 

What exactly does "own it" mean? Of course it means that I recognize the selfishness of the act, empathize with the harm I caused, work diligently to repair the damage, and rededicate myself to the marriage and its ultimate success should my partner decide to stay. It surely means recognizing that I have a weakness that can be exploited under the right circumstances, so I have to be diligent to avoid it in the future. It means being humble enough to not feel too defensive when lumped in with other bad people. 

If however I am nothing more than a waste of skin, incapable of considering the feelings of my spouse, following only my own path to hedonistic delight, then perhaps I should just go jump off that bridge today to spare everyone the continued pain of my existence. That is more or less what scumbag implies, does it not? 

I refuse to be fully defined by my worst moment. If you want my backstory, you can dredge it up from the ancient archives. There is one adjective that NO ONE who knows me has ever used to describe me - selfish. Among my multitude of human weaknesses, that is not one of my faults, even if I did one of the most selfish things you can do to a relationship. 

I do not consider myself a scumbag. I am a flawed person who made about as big a mistake as one can make in a marriage. But my wife, the victim of my failing, still considers me to be basically a good man and a good husband. It's her opinion that matters the most. We reconciled, and she was not weak in doing so. She was strong, forgiving, and loving. So I try to be worthy of the faith she has put in me to be a better husband going forward. 

If that makes me personally a scumbag, then we probably have an irreconcilable difference of opinion on what that word means.


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## Married but Happy

You are emphatically not a scumbag, Cletus.


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## MEM2020

Cletus,

I loathe the caricature of the WS here on TAM. 





Cletus said:


> In the general relationship forum, this happened. I guess I feel like starting a discussion about it. Some sort of abuse gene, I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> And I'm not. I just want to be one of those few posters here who puts a face on "scumbag". If you want to humanize the insult, here I am. If you want to consider me a "scumbag", do it to my face and support your position. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong, but I might counter some of your (the generic "your", not you personally) preconceived notions about these "scumbags".
> 
> People in my position are generally afraid to speak up here because of the blowback. My internet baptism was in the wild west of unmoderated usenet. My skin is thick enough to take it.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. There is nuance in everything.
> 
> 
> 
> If you call me a "scumbag" by definition without any knowledge of me personally, I think I have the right to say what I did, which was mild. I want you to think about what you're saying and to whom you're saying it.
> 
> What exactly does "own it" mean? Of course it means that I recognize the selfishness of the act, empathize with the harm I caused, work diligently to repair the damage, and rededicate myself to the marriage and its ultimate success should my partner decide to stay. It surely means recognizing that I have a weakness that can be exploited under the right circumstances, so I have to be diligent to avoid it in the future. It means being humble enough to not feel too defensive when lumped in with other bad people.
> 
> If however I am nothing more than a waste of skin, incapable of considering the feelings of my spouse, following only my own path to hedonistic delight, then perhaps I should just go jump off that bridge today to spare everyone the continued pain of my existence. That is more or less what scumbag implies, does it not?
> 
> I refuse to be fully defined by my worst moment. If you want my backstory, you can dredge it up from the ancient archives. There is one adjective that NO ONE who knows me has ever used to describe me - selfish. Among my multitude of human weaknesses, that is not one of my faults, even if I did one of the most selfish things you can do to a relationship.
> 
> I do not consider myself a scumbag. I am a flawed person who made about as big a mistake as one can make in a marriage. But my wife, the victim of my failing, still considers me to be basically a good man and a good husband. It's her opinion that matters the most. We reconciled, and she was not weak in doing so. She was strong, forgiving, and loving. So I try to be worthy of the faith she has put in me to be a better husband going forward.
> 
> If that makes me personally a scumbag, then we probably have an irreconcilable difference of opinion on what that word means.


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## Middle of Everything

Very well said Cletus.

Like I said I think you seem like a good guy. Just seemed like you were being a little harsh towards frusdil about choice of words is all.

Maybe it would be fair to say in that moment of cheating you were a scumbag? Like you said you shouldnt be defined by your worst moment. But you did do it. You acknowledge it. You are sorry for doing it. THAT is what makes you not a scumbag to me. Same as someone who gets behind the wheel of a car intoxicated. They are in that moment a PoS. Are they later sorry for it? Do they do it again? THAT is what determines whether they are a PoS or just had one terrible PoS moment.


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## Cletus

Middle of Everything said:


> Maybe it would be fair to say in that moment of cheating you were a scumbag?


That would be fair. 

I'm not looking for absolution from the group here, nor a pat on the back. I just want to make sure that there is at least one person here with a history known to enough of the population who they can identify as "that guy". 

When the question is asked "What kind of person cheats on his spouse?", the answer is me. I'm that kind of person. 

I'll answer any questions on the topic posed in good faith if understanding, clarification, or sensible and respectful debate is the point. Maybe, at the end of the day, you'll still see me as a scumbag. Maybe not. I do think that I have valuable information to share about how a person might consider or actually do something that neither they nor their spouse thought possible.


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## farsidejunky

I think the caricature of a WS on this site is frequently correct...in that particular moment in time.

Few things are more emotionally painful than a WS, deep in the fog, pi$$ing on the ashes of the marriage as they carry on with their AP. Response to this should be decisive and necessarily excessive, until either the affair or the marriage is dead, whichever is chosen by the BS.

That said, just because you acted like a scumbag then, does not mean you are one now. 

A couple of years ago, when Mrs. Mathias was still posting, she was getting a particularly hard time from posters here. Multiple ddays, trickle truth, broken no-contact, false R...she pretty well followed the script in many of the worst ways.

However, at the time I am referencing, she was over a year out from the last dday and was trying her butt off to prove to her BS that she wanted the marriage. She was actually earning it.

Yet she was still being excoriated for her past actions. I specifically told her to take heart in the fact that she may have been a cheater, but at that point she become someone who cheated. There is a stark difference between the two. 
Somewhere in the tragedy of infidelity has to be the opportunity for redemption for those WS's who are truly remorseful.


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## jld

I wish we could have some mature, thoughtful discussions on sticky topics, like infidelity, instead of reactive, emotional ones.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I think the caricature of a WS on this site is frequently correct...in that particular moment in time.
> 
> Few things are more emotionally painful than a WS, deep in the fog, pi$$ing on the ashes of the marriage as they carry on with their AP. Response to this should be decisive and necessarily excessive, until either the affair or the marriage is dead, whichever is chosen by the BS.
> 
> That said, just because you acted like a scumbag then, does not mean you are one now.
> 
> A couple of years ago, when Mrs. Mathias was still posting, she was getting a particularly hard time from posters here. Multiple ddays, trickle truth, broken no-contact, false R...she pretty well followed the script in many of the worst ways.
> 
> However, at the time I am referencing, she was over a year out from the last dday and was trying her butt off to prove to her BS that she wanted the marriage. She was actually earning it.
> 
> Yet she was still being excoriated for her past actions. I specifically told her to take heart in the fact that she may have been a cheater, but at that point she become someone who cheated. There is a stark difference between the two.
> Somewhere in the tragedy of infidelity has to be the opportunity for redemption for those WS's who are truly remorseful.


Far, back when you were looking at porn, drinking alcohol, and using meth, did you consider yourself a scumbag? Looking back, do you see yourself as that now?

Or do you see yourself as someone who was lost at that time? And now you are just really grateful not to be in that place anymore?


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Far, back when you were looking at porn, drinking alcohol, and using meth, did you consider yourself a scumbag? Looking back, do you see yourself as that now?
> 
> Or do you see yourself as someone who was lost at that time? And now you are just really grateful not to be in that place anymore?


Scumbag.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Scumbag.


Is it hard for you to forgive yourself, far?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedDad

farsidejunky said:


> I think the caricature of a WS on this site is frequently correct...in that particular moment in time.


This. You can be a scumbag at one point in time and later redeem yourself through making amends and heavy lifting. It requires an extraordinary effort most people are unwilling or incapable of making. The ones who are usually don't fall to the level of scumbag begin with. Of course, life is full of exceptions.


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## LosingHim

As a WS, I still consider myself scum. That could be right or wrong, I don’t know. I know I’m doing better, I know I have no desire to cheat ever again regardless of what happens between J and I. But I fear I will always carry around that Scarlet Letter or that part of me that’s scum. 

Forgiveness of others has always been easy for me, it’s the forgiveness of self that I struggle with. Hopefully some day I will view myself the same as you do.


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Is it hard for you to forgive yourself, far?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes.

Remorse is not enough.

Atonement is necessary. I hold myself to that higher standard. 

I respect those who do the same.

I struggle to respect those who do not.


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Yes.
> 
> Remorse is not enough.
> 
> Atonement is necessary. I hold myself to that higher standard.
> 
> I respect those who do the same.
> 
> I struggle to respect those who do not.


How have you atoned, far?


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## jld

LosingHim said:


> As a WS, I still consider myself scum. That could be right or wrong, I don’t know. I know I’m doing better, I know I have no desire to cheat ever again regardless of what happens between J and I. But I fear I will always carry around that Scarlet Letter or that part of me that’s scum.
> 
> Forgiveness of others has always been easy for me, it’s the forgiveness of self that I struggle with. Hopefully some day I will view myself the same as you do.


LH, do you remember the post that Cletus made to you a few weeks ago, on pride? His message, at least as I understood it, is that when we have a hard time forgiving ourselves, it is because of our pride. We cannot accept that we made a mistake, and that it can be forgiven. To use Christian terms, we insist on hanging on the cross indefinitely.

Does any of that resonate with you?


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## farsidejunky

Being the husband I should have been.

Being the father I should have been.

Not becoming comfortable in either role, because comfort becomes complacency.

Being honest. Apologizing when I wrong someone. Demonstrating the trust I took for granted is well placed. 

Addressing what my family needs even if it doesn't necessarily make total sense to me (and does not compromise my principles).

Leading and making decisions based on principles.

Holding the line on boundaries.


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## Herschel

With respect to atonement, that is a separate issue. You do not need to atone to no longer be a scumbag. Stopping being a scumbag is completely internal. Atonement is to fix external issues that came about by being a scumbag. There may be none, or maybe you need to move on from them. Or you could just tell the person that their head would have stretched out the sweater hole and just dealt with the fact you will never be forgiven.


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## Cletus

BetrayedDad said:


> This. You can be a scumbag at one point in time and later redeem yourself through making amends and heavy lifting. It requires an extraordinary effort most people are unwilling or incapable of making. The ones who are usually don't fall to the level of scumbag begin with. Of course, life is full of exceptions.


This is where the white/black binary statements about cheating fail to capture the complexities of human relationships.

Sex is the one thing that monogamy prohibits you get from anyone but your spouse. You can have a best friend to commiserate with when your husband leaves the toilet seat up. You can have golf buddies that you spend Sunday morning with on the links without your wife. You can fulfill just about any need in your life in a marriage with someone else except sex and possibly emotional intimacy, though even that is allowed within some proscribed bounds.

When the Big Hole in your marriage is sexual, you have absolutely no recourse short of divorce to remedy that problem. None. You have the choice, and are responsible for the outcome, but make no mistake about it - the relationship combined with the expectation of monogamy (to which you agreed, yes, even if you did it stupidly and without full information) set up the conditions that make a choice inevitable. 

Personally, I would apply the label "weak" for my reaction to this reality before I would say "scumbag", though I'll accept the latter in shorthand. I would also say that dedication to the marriage early on, when the problem first arose (wedding night), turns out in this case to be more of a negative than a positive. I should have cut bait, but I was 22, naive, and (I thought) principled. Instead I decided to keep fishing, hoping that time would improve the catch. When it didn't, I was already 20 years, 2 children, a house, and a retirement invested in not destroying the marriage. 

These are not excuses. These are the complex reasons behind how someone can find himself falling to the level of scumbag.


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## farsidejunky

Herschel said:


> With respect to atonement, that is a separate issue. You do not need to atone to no longer be a scumbag. Stopping being a scumbag is completely internal. Atonement is to fix external issues that came about by being a scumbag. There may be none, or maybe you need to move on from them. Or you could just tell the person that their head would have stretched out the sweater hole and just dealt with the fact you will never be forgiven.


I see your point. They technically are separate, and you are totally correct in your analysis of atonement being external.

However, speaking personally, remorse without atonement is like adding oil to an engine that has been running it low for an extended period of time. Sure, you can probably get it to run longer, but damage has been done, and will not be the same without a rebuild.


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## Cletus

jld said:


> I wish we could have some mature, thoughtful discussions on sticky topics, like infidelity, instead of reactive, emotional ones.


So discuss. I won't get emotional if you don't!


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## jld

farsidejunky said:


> Being the husband I should have been.
> 
> Being the father I should have been.
> 
> Not becoming comfortable in either role, because comfort becomes complacency.
> 
> Being honest. Apologizing when I wrong someone. Demonstrating the trust I took for granted is well placed.
> 
> Addressing what my family needs even if it doesn't necessarily make total sense to me (and does not compromise my principles).
> 
> Leading and making decisions based on principles.
> 
> Holding the line on boundaries.


Have you ever formally apologized to your wife for using porn and abusing alcohol? (I think you had already stopped the meth before you met her, no?) How did she react?


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## drifting on

A person actively cheating could be considered a scumbag, or whatever name you want. When they are no longer cheating, affair has ended, and they are working towards either marriage or divorce as decided by the BS, then they are human. We are all human, fallible, and broken in some way or another. We aren't perfect, whether a BS or a WS. I am friends with some who have cheated on this website and others. They are what I would classify as good honest people. 

Making a bad choice is terrible, and sometimes others are harmed by those choices. The way to measure that persons quality and value is how they respond to those bad choices, do they atone for their actions? Many many years ago I was just such a bad person, I contributed nothing good to society. I found myself, turned myself around, and I atoned for my actions towards others. I went back to those I wronged and gave them forty hours of labor in which I would do anything. 

Some respected me for what I did, others screamed at me when I would go back to their house. I deserved those words, I deserved their anger, and I went back each week and knocked on their doors. Each time I told them I would be back next week, I told them I would atone for my actions. Some asked why I kept coming back, I explained I was a bad person then, I need to atone for myself, my beliefs. 

I see some WS here atone for their actions, some don't, but those that do are a valuable person, a person with merit who have changed their lives. I know of several people who have done this on TAM, I consider them valuable and some as friends. It is my hope they forgive themselves, understand they are not a bad person, and that people can change for the better. I am living proof of this, yet I couldn't forgive myself until I atoned for my actions. 

My wife struggles with forgiving herself, sees herself as a monster. My response is I wouldn't leave my boys with a monster, but I will leave them with their mother who will care and love them like no other. A mother who would give her life for theirs if needed, a mother who is doing all she can to reconcile with her husband, a person who has a heart for others and is truly caring. 

So you may not be the best person when cheating, but you can be a better person if you give some effort. You can be as good a person you want to be, you have no limits, but the cheating has to stop first, and then you need to place your heart into being that better person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Have you ever formally apologized to your wife for using porn and abusing alcohol? (I think you had already stopped the meth before you met her, no?) How did she react?


I did. 

Initially, anger. Then suspicion. Later, trust.

The apology was me shouting across the ravine over which ran the bridge that I blew up in my addictions. Atonement is what rebuilt the bridge.


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## jld

Cletus said:


> So discuss. I won't get emotional if you don't!


You were not one of the ones I was thinking of. 

And I am already discussing quite actively on this thread! 

Cletus, I feel sorry for you. I don't think your desire for something more than missionary is at all unreasonable. I don't get why your wife will not do more. And I am not a bit surprised that if you had never had oral from a woman, or if it had been decades, that you fell to the temptation of seeing what it felt like, or getting it again. Your wife is surely a wonderful woman for you to recommit knowing that missionary is basically it forever.

On the subject of infidelity in general, I would love to hear more humility from the BSs. In one of my first threads here on TAM, back in December 2013, I said I think WSs are BSs in their own way. And Esther Perel said very clearly that sexual betrayal is only one form of betrayal in marriage. I wish more BSs could really, really reflect on that.

At this point, I think those who have affairs need to ask themselves why they stay married. If they felt unhappy enough to stray, and the BS upon discovery is deep into self pity and victimhood, instead of honest reflection on how they contributed to their spouse's vulnerability, I think the WS is better off leaving the marriage. Bummer for the kids, I know. But without deep honesty on both sides of infidelity, I don't see true reconciliation happening.


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## GusPolinski

Blah blah blah.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus

GusPolinski said:


> Blah blah blah.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I wondered when you would chime in with precisely this response.


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## Emmi

drifting on said:


> A person actively cheating could be considered a scumbag, or whatever name you want. When they are no longer cheating, affair has ended, and they are working towards either marriage or divorce as decided by the BS, then they are human. We are all human, fallible, and broken in some way or another. We aren't perfect, whether a BS or a WS. I am friends with some who have cheated on this website and others. They are what I would classify as good honest people.
> 
> Making a bad choice is terrible, and sometimes others are harmed by those choices. The way to measure that persons quality and value is how they respond to those bad choices, do they atone for their actions? Many many years ago I was just such a bad person, I contributed nothing good to society. I found myself, turned myself around, and I atoned for my actions towards others. I went back to those I wronged and gave them forty hours of labor in which I would do anything.
> 
> Some respected me for what I did, others screamed at me when I would go back to their house. I deserved those words, I deserved their anger, and I went back each week and knocked on their doors. Each time I told them I would be back next week, I told them I would atone for my actions. Some asked why I kept coming back, I explained I was a bad person then, I need to atone for myself, my beliefs.
> 
> I see some WS here atone for their actions, some don't, but those that do are a valuable person, a person with merit who have changed their lives. I know of several people who have done this on TAM, I consider them valuable and some as friends. It is my hope they forgive themselves, understand they are not a bad person, and that people can change for the better. I am living proof of this, yet I couldn't forgive myself until I atoned for my actions.
> 
> My wife struggles with forgiving herself, sees herself as a monster. My response is I wouldn't leave my boys with a monster, but I will leave them with their mother who will care and love them like no other. A mother who would give her life for theirs if needed, a mother who is doing all she can to reconcile with her husband, a person who has a heart for others and is truly caring.
> 
> So you may not be the best person when cheating, but you can be a better person if you give some effort. You can be as good a person you want to be, you have no limits, but the cheating has to stop first, and then you need to place your heart into being that better person.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is why I don't do bad things, I can't bare the thought of having to face people who I've wronged, so I simply don't wrong people. I do however have great respect for people who do make amends. Two girls I went to school with contacted me years later and apologised for how they treated me (different girls from different schools) and I was shocked. All I could think about was how humiliating that must have been for them. I do really respect them for it though.

My old friend who cheated on her ex on the other hand I lost all respect for. She blamed the OM and her partner. Sure they had a terrible relationship but she could have done anything other than cheat. He even wanted to work through it but she was very much on her way out of the relationship.


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## EllisRedding

jld said:


> On the subject of infidelity in general, I would love to hear more humility from the BSs. In one of my first threads here on TAM, back in December 2013, I said I think WSs are BSs in their own way. And Esther Perel said very clearly that sexual betrayal is only one form of betrayal in marriage. I wish more BSs could really, really reflect on that.


The problem is, unless you have actually dealt with infidelity (I have not) it would be hard for me to say (without having gone through myself) how a BS should or should not act.


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## jld

EllisRedding said:


> The problem is, unless you have actually dealt with infidelity (I have not) it would be hard for me to say (without having gone through myself) how a BS should or should not act.


We are all welcome to our own opinions.


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## EllisRedding

jld said:


> We are all welcome to our own opinions.


Agreed, nowhere did I say otherwise, just an observation (we are all allowed those as well  )


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## Cletus

jld said:


> Cletus, I feel sorry for you.


I don't. 

All of the choices available to anyone in our free society were always available to me. My choice to stay was mine. My choice to stray was mine. My choice to stay again was mine, conditional on my wife's agreement.

I have made my own reality. I would have chosen differently with perfect foreknowledge, but no one has that. There was no shotgun wedding, no handgun affair, and no Uzzi reconciliation. It's hard in my mind to feel sorry for someone who has so many choices to have it differently. I chose the option that I hoped would minimize my personal suffering when the time came, which is why I describe it as first and foremost weakness. 



> At this point, I think those who have affairs need to ask themselves why they stay married. If they felt unhappy enough to stray, and the BS upon discovery is deep into self pity and victimhood, instead of honest reflection on how they contributed to their spouse's vulnerability, I think the WS is better off leaving the marriage. Bummer for the kids, I know. But without deep honesty on both sides of infidelity, I don't see true reconciliation happening.


I stayed because finding someone with whom you can happily share the same house is not easy. It gets harder the older and more entrenched in our ways we get. Every marriage has its struggles - I am thankful that mine are not financial, or substance abuse, or troll doll collecting. Now in my early 50's, sex is steadily moving down the importance list and the things I do have are steadily moving up. In the long slow arc of marriage, I picked a good person. I think she agrees, even after hitting a pretty damned big speed bump. 

I'm sure that if I'd divorced a decade ago I'd be fine today. Would I be better off? Probably not. Would my wife? Probably not. Staying together seems in hindsight to have been the right choice.


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## BetrayedDad

Cletus said:


> I'm sure that if I'd divorced a decade ago I'd be fine today. Would I be better off? Probably not. Would my wife? Probably not. Staying together seems in hindsight to have been the right choice.


If you say so... 

Divorcing a scumbag is unequivocally the best decision I ever made.


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## MEM2020

Ellis,
I never thought about leaving M2 because she fell in love?/lust? with Dan. I did discover the hard way that the brutal reality of the fog is this. 

The fog works like a two sided fun house mirror. Your side is the glass that makes you shorter and fatter. The other side makes your romantic rival look taller and slimmer. 





EllisRedding said:


> The problem is, unless you have actually dealt with infidelity (I have not) it would be hard for me to say (without having gone through myself) how a BS should or should not act.


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## pidge70

jld said:


> How have you atoned, far?


You do realize that you are threadjacking? Something you do quite a lot of.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

Cletus said:


> I don't.
> 
> All of the choices available to anyone in our free society were always available to me. My choice to stay was mine. My choice to stray was mine. My choice to stay again was mine, conditional on my wife's agreement.
> 
> I have made my own reality. I would have chosen differently with perfect foreknowledge, but no one has that. There was no shotgun wedding, no handgun affair, and no Uzzi reconciliation. It's hard in my mind to feel sorry for someone who has so many choices to have it differently. I chose the option that I hoped would minimize my personal suffering when the time came, which is why I describe it as first and foremost weakness.


This response makes it clear you have "owned it." 

I still feel sorry for you, though. But I think there is something to feel sorry for in everyone. No one's life is perfect. We are all hurt, fragile, weak in our own ways.




> I stayed because finding someone with whom you can happily share the same house is not easy. It gets harder the older and more entrenched in our ways we get. Every marriage has its struggles - I am thankful that mine are not financial, or substance abuse, or troll doll collecting. Now in my early 50's, sex is steadily moving down the importance list and the things I do have are steadily moving up. In the long slow arc of marriage, I picked a good person. I think she agrees, even after hitting a pretty damned big speed bump.
> 
> I'm sure that if I'd divorced a decade ago I'd be fine today. Would I be better off? Probably not. Would my wife? Probably not. Staying together seems in hindsight to have been the right choice.


I believe that. You have been together 30 years, right? That is a long time. Plus you have your kids and will likely have grandkids. And sex is not everything in marriage, as you well know.


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## UMP

Cletus, 
I AM a scumbag and I haven't even cheated on my wife!

Go figure.


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## jld

UMP said:


> Cletus,
> I AM a scumbag and I haven't even cheated on my wife!
> 
> Go figure.


That's the spirit, UMP!


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## 225985

There are lots of us scumbags here. Most of us don't wear the title as a badge of honor.


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## Cletus

BetrayedDad said:


> If you say so...
> 
> Divorcing a scumbag is unequivocally the best decision I ever made.


If I read this right, you want to say that I'm a scumbag that my wife should have left. Correct?

That's OK, I won't come unhinged if that's what you think. Is infidelity to you a sin from which there is no recovery possible? Are adulterers too broken to waste time with under all circumstances?


----------



## 225985

pidge70 said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> 
> How have you atoned, far?
> 
> 
> 
> You do realize that you are threadjacking? Something you do quite a lot of.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_
Click to expand...

She does not care. She has overwhelming irrational need to blame every man and to tell every wife to divorce, because she is unwilling to do the same. Never take advice from a person who does not practice what they preach. 

But she wont divorce because then she would need to get a job.


----------



## GTdad

UMP said:


> Cletus,
> I AM a scumbag and I haven't even cheated on my wife!
> 
> Go figure.


Me: "I'm GTdad, and I'm a scumbag."

All: "Hi, GTdad."


----------



## 225985

GTdad said:


> UMP said:
> 
> 
> 
> Cletus,
> I AM a scumbag and I haven't even cheated on my wife!
> 
> Go figure.
> 
> 
> 
> Me: "I'm GTdad, and I'm a scumbag."
> 
> All: "Hi, GTdad."
Click to expand...

Hi GT

Are you a cheating scumbag or a non cheating scumbag? We need to keep the scumbag ranking up to date.


----------



## GTdad

blueinbr said:


> Hi GT
> 
> Are you a cheating scumbag or a non cheating scumbag? We need to keep the scumbag ranking up to date.


I had what would likely be called an EA about 25 years ago, so unless there's a Statute of Limitations that eventually runs, I'd say the former.


----------



## Wolf1974

Hmm. 

I can't speak for all BS but I will gladly speak for myself. I was married to a scumbag cheater. And yes scumbag would be probably the least colorful word I would use to describe her. When I call her a scumbag or anything else it's within a context of her as my then wife and now X wife. 

Does everyone view her as a scumbag? No not everyone. she has many roles and people view her only in whatever role they value her for. 

My daughters obviously care about her as their mother and I suspect that after I tell them the truth one day they may be hurt, disappointmented, maybe even angry with her but I seriously doubt they would stop loving her and that's ok

Her colleagues value her as a worker. I do believe she is likely very good at her job. It's very much data entry and she can type, error free, at an insane speed.

She is a daughter and sister and while they have all had problems with one another over the years no doubt they have love for one another.

She has some friends and had them since high school. While she isn't really close to them they all do still communicate so they must have a reason. No doubt they care for each other.

None of these people view her as a scumbag but none of them were cheated on by here either. If they had been betrayed directly bet they would feel a lot different about it.

I loved and cared for her and she flat out did me wrong. Her value to me was as my wife and a mother, a friend, and a confident. She was my everything and betrayed all of it. So to me scumbag is what she is.


----------



## UMP

blueinbr said:


> Hi GT
> 
> Are you a cheating scumbag or a non cheating scumbag? We need to keep the scumbag ranking up to date.


I am Jimmy Carter and I have committed adultery in my heart, MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY, MANY times.

I guess it all depends on your frame of reference. Who are we to measure ourselves against?


----------



## Emmi

Cletus said:


> This is where the white/black binary statements about cheating fail to capture the complexities of human relationships.
> 
> Sex is the one thing that monogamy prohibits you get from anyone but your spouse. You can have a best friend to commiserate with when your husband leaves the toilet seat up. You can have golf buddies that you spend Sunday morning with on the links without your wife. You can fulfill just about any need in your life in a marriage with someone else except sex and possibly emotional intimacy, though even that is allowed within some proscribed bounds.
> 
> When the Big Hole in your marriage is sexual, you have absolutely no recourse short of divorce to remedy that problem. None. You have the choice, and are responsible for the outcome, but make no mistake about it - the relationship combined with the expectation of monogamy (to which you agreed, yes, even if you did it stupidly and without full information) set up the conditions that make a choice inevitable.
> 
> Personally, I would apply the label "weak" for my reaction to this reality before I would say "scumbag", though I'll accept the latter in shorthand. I would also say that dedication to the marriage early on, when the problem first arose (wedding night), turns out in this case to be more of a negative than a positive. I should have cut bait, but I was 22, naive, and (I thought) principled. Instead I decided to keep fishing, hoping that time would improve the catch. When it didn't, I was already 20 years, 2 children, a house, and a retirement invested in not destroying the marriage.
> 
> These are not excuses. These are the complex reasons behind how someone can find himself falling to the level of scumbag.


Sounds a lot like you are rationalising what you did. Like some how your reason for cheating is better than other waywards? I have to say I disagree with you about sex being the only thing you can get elsewhere, I also disagree on what you seem to imply about sex being a better reason than anything else. I simply don't believe you when you say cheating was inevitable.

You say they are complex reasons, but all I see is you bringing up one marital problem. It doesn't seem complex to me at all. You wanted more sex, so you strayed? 

I don't know your entire story, so maybe you have given other more complex reasons before. 

I truly believe the only reasons for cheating are within the person who cheated, not the marriage. 

I hope you have reached the insight to see what truly allowed you to betray your family, and that you know that they are all you, and not because of your sexual dissatisfaction. If you truly believe sex is a good enough reason to cheat, then how do you justify going back to your wife? Did you just need some release? And now are you all set for twenty more years of dissatisfaction?

Please don't take offence by this, I just want to understand the depth of it a bit more.


----------



## Wolf1974

Cletus said:


> If I read this right, you want to say that I'm a scumbag that my wife should have left. Correct?
> 
> That's OK, I won't come unhinged if that's what you think. Is infidelity to you a sin from which there is no recovery possible? Are adulterers too broken to waste time with under all circumstances?


I know this wasn't asked of me but my answer would be

Yes I think everyone deserves to be with someone who doesn't cheat.

Now Is Recovery possible? Some do it so yes. I personally wouldn't but that's my choice and it's as valid as the choice to reconcile. 

Are adulterers too broken to waste time with under all circumstances? I would say no only if the circumstance that would get cheated on. 

In other words if I found out today that my brother was cheating on his wife would I end all contact with him? Maybe for awhile but not ever. My relationship with him as my brother is that relationship and in that context. The flip side is then that I wouldn't form a relationship with a woman who cheated because it's in that context where her character failed if that makes sense.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Cletus said:


> Is infidelity to you a sin from which there is no recovery possible? Are adulterers too broken to waste time with under all circumstances?


No but for you to insinuate that your wife was "probably" better off staying with you is absurd. She very well may have found another man with fewer character flaws than yourself.


----------



## EllisRedding

Wolf1974 said:


> In other words if I found out today that my brother was cheating on his wife would I end all contact with him? Maybe for awhile but not ever. My relationship with him as my brother is that relationship and in that context.


When I first found out the reason my cousin was getting divorced was b/c she cheated on her husband, I honestly did not want to talk to her or have any involvement with her. As you said though, ultimately my relationship with her is as my cousin, so in that context I can look past the cheating and maintain our relationship



Wolf1974 said:


> The flip side is then that I wouldn't form a relationship with a woman who cheated because it's in that context where her character failed if that makes sense.


This is a very interesting point. There is the saying "Once a cheater always a cheater". I don't know exactly how accurate that saying is. I would have a very difficult time dating someone who cheated on their SO, don't know if it would even be possible.

Since this is @Cletus thread though, along with Wolf's point above, my question for Cletus:

- Do you feel that there is still a part of you that is susceptible to cheating (maybe not with your W, but let's say things had ended and you were seeking another relationship)?


----------



## Cletus

Emmi said:


> Sounds a lot like you are rationalising what you did. Like some how your reason for cheating is better than other waywards?


I don't know how to differentiate explanation from rationalization to your satisfaction other than to say that I would not recommend that anyone else who found himself in my position do what I did. If I rationalized it, I would be saying that it was an acceptable choice given the circumstances. 



> I have to say I disagree with you about sex being the only thing you can get elsewhere, I also disagree on what you seem to imply about sex being a better reason than anything else. I simply don't believe you when you say cheating was inevitable.


I didn't say that. The marriage conditions that would make me consider cheating were inevitable, not the choice made. And that's why it's important to discuss it in a marriage forum. All of the "blah, blah, blah" responses don't help those who might find themselves in a similar circumstance. 



> You say they are complex reasons, but all I see is you bringing up one marital problem. It doesn't seem complex to me at all. You wanted more sex, so you strayed?
> 
> I don't know your entire story, so maybe you have given other more complex reasons before.


I don't have the desire to hash out all of that now in this time and place, but "more sex" is a pretty condensed version of the problem. I married a near-virgin who believed in chastity before marriage, too young and too naive to understand what this might imply about sexual incompatibility. 

The right decision, in hindsight, might have been to end the marriage in the first year. The absolutely wrong decision was to cheat at year 20. 



> If you truly believe sex is a good enough reason to cheat,


You keep ascribing to me beliefs that I do not hold.



> then how do you justify going back to your wife? Did you just need some release? And now are you all set for twenty more years of dissatisfaction?


Yes, I am.


----------



## Cletus

BetrayedDad said:


> No but for you to insinuate that your wife was "probably" better off staying with you is absurd. She very well may have found another man with fewer character flaws than yourself.


I would not say that if she were not now a happily married woman to the father of her children, by her own admission and actions.


----------



## Cletus

EllisRedding said:


> - Do you feel that there is still a part of you that is susceptible to cheating (maybe not with your W, but let's say things had ended and you were seeking another relationship)?


It doesn't matter what I feel. My stock answer is that once such a flaw is discovered, it can't simply be willed away. So I make sure that I never allow myself to get into such a situation again, knowing that even my best intentions might not be defense enough. 

I have actively changed my thinking on the problem that caused me to stray in the first place. I have acceptance of my reality instead of fear, and I'm in a better place overall for it. 

I live the alcoholics life of never taking that first drink again. Now that my children are out of the house, if I were to find myself in that place again despite my guarding against it, I would not go behind her back a second time.


----------



## Wolf1974

EllisRedding said:


> When I first found out the reason my cousin was getting divorced was b/c she cheated on her husband, I honestly did not want to talk to her or have any involvement with her. As you said though, ultimately my relationship with her is as my cousin, so in that context I can look past the cheating and maintain our relationship
> 
> 
> 
> This is a very interesting point. There is the saying "Once a cheater always a cheater". I don't know exactly how accurate that saying is. I would have a very difficult time dating someone who cheated on their SO, don't know if it would even be possible.
> 
> Since this is @Cletus thread though, along with Wolf's point above, my question for Cletus:
> 
> - Do you feel that there is still a part of you that is susceptible to cheating (maybe not with your W, but let's say things had ended and you were seeking another relationship)?


My very personal experience was proven that once a cheater always a cheater was true. Some time ago someone had a thread with how many times were you cheated on. Was overwhelming how many in reconciliation had been cheated on again. 

Not all cheaters will do it again but I think the odds are high enough that you would be foolish to enter a relationship with them and think it won't happen to me
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

Cletus said:


> I would not say that if she were not now a happily married woman to the father of her children, by her own admission and actions.


Yeah and maybe she'd be even happier with someone who never cheated on her. Or maybe not. 

Either way, staying for the kids is a lousy reason to stay. It means the BS has issues they need to address themselves.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> It doesn't matter what I feel. My stock answer is that once such a flaw is discovered, it can't simply be willed away. So I make sure that I never allow myself to get into such a situation again, knowing that even my best intentions might not be defense enough.
> 
> I have actively changed my thinking on the problem that caused me to stray in the first place. I have acceptance of my reality instead of fear, and I'm in a better place overall for it.
> 
> I live the alcoholics life of never taking that first drink again. Now that my children are out of the house, if I were to find myself in that place again despite my guarding against it, I would not go behind her back a second time.


How do you guard against it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MarriedDude

Cletus said:


> In the general relationship forum, this happened. I guess I feel like starting a discussion about it. Some sort of abuse gene, I guess.
> 
> 
> 
> And I'm not. I just want to be one of those few posters here who puts a face on "scumbag". If you want to humanize the insult, here I am. If you want to consider me a "scumbag", do it to my face and support your position. I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong, but I might counter some of your (the generic "your", not you personally) preconceived notions about these "scumbags".
> 
> People in my position are generally afraid to speak up here because of the blowback. My internet baptism was in the wild west of unmoderated usenet. My skin is thick enough to take it.
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you. There is nuance in everything.
> 
> 
> 
> If you call me a "scumbag" by definition without any knowledge of me personally, I think I have the right to say what I did, which was mild. I want you to think about what you're saying and to whom you're saying it.
> 
> What exactly does "own it" mean? Of course it means that I recognize the selfishness of the act, empathize with the harm I caused, work diligently to repair the damage, and rededicate myself to the marriage and its ultimate success should my partner decide to stay. It surely means recognizing that I have a weakness that can be exploited under the right circumstances, so I have to be diligent to avoid it in the future. It means being humble enough to not feel too defensive when lumped in with other bad people.
> 
> If however I am nothing more than a waste of skin, incapable of considering the feelings of my spouse, following only my own path to hedonistic delight, then perhaps I should just go jump off that bridge today to spare everyone the continued pain of my existence. That is more or less what scumbag implies, does it not?
> 
> I refuse to be fully defined by my worst moment. If you want my backstory, you can dredge it up from the ancient archives. There is one adjective that NO ONE who knows me has ever used to describe me - selfish. Among my multitude of human weaknesses, that is not one of my faults, even if I did one of the most selfish things you can do to a relationship.
> 
> I do not consider myself a scumbag. I am a flawed person who made about as big a mistake as one can make in a marriage. But my wife, the victim of my failing, still considers me to be basically a good man and a good husband. It's her opinion that matters the most. We reconciled, and she was not weak in doing so. She was strong, forgiving, and loving. So I try to be worthy of the faith she has put in me to be a better husband going forward.
> 
> If that makes me personally a scumbag, then we probably have an irreconcilable difference of opinion on what that word means.



Being a Dirtbag myself...ive always liked scumbags.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> How do you guard against it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


By keeping a "professional distance" with all of the women in my life to whom I am not related.


----------



## 225985

Wolf1974 said:


> My very personal experience was proven that once a cheater always a cheater was true. Some time ago someone had a thread with how many times were you cheated on. Was overwhelming how many in reconciliation had been cheated on again.
> 
> 
> 
> Not all cheaters will do it again but I think the odds are high enough that you would be foolish to enter a relationship with them and think it won't happen to me
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




I doubt the probably of a person cheating again is any higher than the odds of a random person cheating for the first time. (Let's discard the less common, serial cheater from the stats because they distort the numbers. )


----------



## Cletus

MarriedDude said:


> Being a Dirtbag myself...ive always liked scumbags.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What's the difference between a Harley rider and a Hoover?

The dirtbag is on the top.


----------



## Wazza

BetrayedDad said:


> No but for you to insinuate that your wife was "probably" better off staying with you is absurd. She very well may have found another man with fewer character flaws than yourself.


Or may have ended up old and alone......

Who knows? But I do know that focussing on things you don't have rather than things you do have is a recipe for discontent.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Wazza said:


> Or may have ended up old and alone......
> 
> Who knows?


That's the problem.

Some think staying with a cheater is preferable.

I'd rather be alone than with a scumbag. 

Though odds are highly unlikely you would be.

People are far more replaceable than they'd like to admit.


----------



## Wazza

BetrayedDad said:


> Either way, staying for the kids is a lousy reason to stay. It means the BS has issues they need to address themselves.


It means you felt it was the right thing to do, and chose to make the welfare of your kids top priority. 

Of course that's simplistic. case by case, things will differ. But I've actually seen more than one good marriage come out of staying for the kids, including mine.

I don't think I've ever met a person without issues. My wife's affair was a symptom of deeper issues. She had work to do. Once I got past the pain, there is a certain joy in helping someone I care about become a happier and more together person. As a BS, I had my own issues, and a lot of what Cletus is saying about being a WS seems pretty balanced to me.


----------



## Wazza

BetrayedDad said:


> That's the problem.
> 
> Some think staying with a cheater is preferable.
> 
> I'd rather be alone than with a scumbag.
> 
> Though odds are highly unlikely you would be.
> 
> People are far more replaceable than they'd like to admit.


You appear to have a very one dimensional view of WS. Because I don't share that view, I don't agree with the premise that shapes your post.

Fwiw, I would not stay with a cheater. I can rebuild with someone who has cheated, but it was out of character.

It's quite possible that my spouse and yours are different people and that shapes our opinions.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Wazza said:


> It's quite possible that my spouse and yours are different people and that shapes our opinions.


That's fair. To this day my ex spouse is remorseless though she sure tried desperately to pretend she was. She was only sorry she got caught.

I do believe Cletus is remorseful today. Though if I were Mrs. Cletus on D-Day, I would of dumped him, never looked back, and never regretted it.


----------



## wild jade

BetrayedDad said:


> That's the problem.
> 
> Some think staying with a cheater is preferable.
> 
> I'd rather be alone than with a scumbag.
> 
> Though odds are highly unlikely you would be.
> 
> People are far more replaceable than they'd like to admit.


Ya, I'm not big on forgiveness either. I can't imagine a relationship that would be worth the hard work needed to get over that kind of betrayal. What for? Better to just cut and run, IMHO.


----------



## MarriedDude

Cletus said:


> What's the difference between a Harley rider and a Hoover?
> 
> The dirtbag is on the top.


Thats only funny cause its true 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

Wazza said:


> I can rebuild with someone who has cheated, but it was *out of character*.


Just reread this. Speaks volumes to me. 

I think "out of character" is sleeping in on a Saturday.

You apparently think "out of character" is swapping bodily fluids.

Alrighty then...... strong rationalization hamster going on here.


----------



## becareful2

One group of people whom I would consider scumbags are cheating spouses who abandon their non-abusive, faithful spouses and their kids to go with their affair partners. Husbands who abandon their wives and kids are bottom feeding scumbags. Wives who fall for their affair partners and leave their husbands and kids are scumbags. I'm sorry but 50/50 child custody doesn't absolve them of that label. There was a story about an unremorseful wayward wife who was going through a divorce with her faithful husband. She and her new man was on a vacation at some exotic location after her engagement. Her son was at home with her STBX husband, and the kid texted her about why she didn't text him. Her reply was something along the lines of, "Well, you could have texted me." The kid was hurt and crawled up to his dad's bed and fell asleep next to him. The dad saw the phone and opened it up and saw their text exchange. It tore him up. That woman is a scumbag.

The other group is swingers with children where their lifestyles hurt their kids. Basically, people who hurt their children are scumbags.

The former wayward spouses who stay, show consistent, genuine remorse and who do the heavy lifting to help their spouses heal aren't in that category, imo. If anything, they show that they still have a conscience and that the cheating doesn't define them. Most here on TAM aren't scumbags.


----------



## MEM2020

For me, one big mistake wouldn't outweigh 25+ years of good.

I do think these situations are all totally individual. 

And each person must - do what makes sense to them.

I have a family member who likely will remain angry for life at their wandering ex spouse. That's sad. And unhealthy. 






BetrayedDad said:


> That's the problem.
> 
> Some think staying with a cheater is preferable.
> 
> I'd rather be alone than with a scumbag.
> 
> Though odds are highly unlikely you would be.
> 
> People are far more replaceable than they'd like to admit.


----------



## BetrayedDad

MEM11363 said:


> I have a family member who likely will remain angry for life at their wandering ex spouse. That's sad. And unhealthy.


Some people enjoy sh!t sandwiches. Good for them. I do not.

Doesn't make me angry. I'd of been resentful if I stayed.

I am far happier now than I ever was in my marriage.

To stay with a cheat is to throw away some of your dignity.

It's a step below being a ****. Sorry if some of you disagree.

That's how I feel and I'm entitled to that opinion.


----------



## 2asdf2

Cletus said:


> This is where the white/black binary statements about cheating fail to capture the complexities of human relationships.
> 
> *Sex is the one thing that monogamy prohibits you get from anyone but your spouse.* You can have a best friend to commiserate with when your husband leaves the toilet seat up. You can have golf buddies that you spend Sunday morning with on the links without your wife. You can fulfill just about any need in your life in a marriage with someone else except sex and possibly emotional intimacy, though even that is allowed within some proscribed bounds.
> 
> *When the Big Hole in your marriage is sexual, you have absolutely no recourse short of divorce to remedy that problem.* None. You have the choice, and are responsible for the outcome, but make no mistake about it - the relationship combined with the expectation of monogamy (to which you agreed, yes, even if you did it stupidly and without full information) set up the conditions that make a choice inevitable.
> 
> Personally, I would apply the label "weak" for my reaction to this reality before I would say "scumbag", though I'll accept the latter in shorthand. I would also say that dedication to the marriage early on, when the problem first arose (wedding night), turns out in this case to be more of a negative than a positive. I should have cut bait, but I was 22, naive, and (I thought) principled. Instead I decided to keep fishing, hoping that time would improve the catch. When it didn't, I was already 20 years, 2 children, a house, and a retirement invested in not destroying the marriage.
> 
> These are not excuses. These are the complex reasons behind how someone can find himself falling to the level of scumbag.






Wazza said:


> You appear to have a very one dimensional view of WS. Because I don't share that view, I don't agree with the premise that shapes your post.
> 
> Fwiw, I would not stay with a cheater. I can rebuild with someone who has cheated, but it was out of character.
> 
> *It's quite possible that my spouse and yours are different people and that shapes our opinions.*





BetrayedDad said:


> That's fair. *To this day my ex spouse is remorseless though she sure tried desperately to pretend she was. She was only sorry she got caught.*
> 
> I do believe Cletus is remorseful today. Though if I were Mrs. Cletus on D-Day, I would of dumped him, never looked back, and never regretted it.


If WS = scumbag, then:

My quoted posts are meant to illustrate that the term WS is one with wide parameters and many hues.

A one-time thing -it seems to me- is an easier pitfall for a non-scumbag to succumb to. For someone who emplys the full gamut of the "cheater's script" as perhaps BD's WS did, the scumbag moniker is hard to avoid.

From-the-heart remorse, not neccessarily accompanied by atonement, can elevate a person out of the scumbag class. I am sure the biblical scholars here will be able to supply the correct Chapter and Verse.


----------



## Maricha75

BetrayedDad said:


> Some people enjoy sh!t sandwiches. Good for them. I do not.
> 
> Doesn't make me angry. I'd of been resentful if I stayed.
> 
> I am far happier now than I ever was in my marriage.
> 
> To stay with a cheat is to throw away some of your dignity.
> 
> It's a step below being a ****. Sorry if some of you disagree.
> 
> That's how I feel and I'm entitled to that opinion.


Indeed, you absolutely are entitled to your opinion... just as those who feel differently are entitled to theirs. Each couple's situation is different from everyone else's. Sure, there are often MANY similarities. But they aren't all the same.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Cletus

Let me take the opportunity to thank everyone for the respectful tone of this thread so far. 

I sort of expected that. When you move from the hypothetical world of "all WS are ****bags" to interacting with someone with whom you are familiar changes your behavior, if not your underlying belief.


----------



## BetrayedDad

2asdf2 said:


> A one-time thing -it seems to me- is an easier pitfall for a non-scumbag to succumb to. For someone who emplys the full gamut of the "cheater's script" as perhaps BD's WS did, the scumbag moniker is hard to avoid.


How do you define a "one time thing"?

A kiss?

A drunken ONS?

A one month affair?

A three year affair with one person?

Once is one time too many. 

I see nothing to gain from rebuilding a house that your spouse burned down and pissed on the ashes. When it's far easier to buy a brand new house and not be foolish enough to let the arsonist back in. 

Some of you say you are happier. Great, so am I and I don't have to wake up next to a cheater in the morning. Can't be all that bad.


----------



## GusPolinski

Cletus said:


> I wondered when you would chime in with precisely this response.


Just wanted to leave a quick tl;dr summary, and early enough in the thread so that newbies wouldn't have to wade knee-deep into the... well, "bullstuff".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Cletus

GusPolinski said:


> Just wanted to leave a quick tl;dr summary, and early enough in the thread so that newbies wouldn't have to wade knee-deep into the... well, "bullstuff".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I promised myself I would keep my caustic side at bay in this thread. 

Please help me keep that promise.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I don't have any feelings one way or another about you, Cletus. Or I didn't. I had no memory of you cheating on your wife. Maybe I forgot? I just don't think I knew until today.

Here is the way I see it. I would never knowingly date a former wayward spouse or even someone who dated and slept with multiple men at the same time. I used to feel differently. 

Will I attempt to show some respect for the former? Yes.

Will I respect them for other things they've done in their lives? Yes, probably.

Would I ever trust them alone around my wife? Nope.

Would I ever trust them alone around any potential partner? Nope.

But then, neither would I want my wife or girlfriend to be alone with a man to just shoot the breeze and talk about problems and issues. Never have liked that.

Not much has changed for me. My opinions have only been solidified. I'm sure you might have some insight for some women whose husbands have been unfaithful. I'm sure you are intelligent. 

Good luck.

I guess I sort of feel about formers the way women feel about an abusive man. Not exactly, not as harshly, but similar.


----------



## 2asdf2

BetrayedDad said:


> How do you define a "one time thing"?
> 
> A kiss?
> 
> A drunken ONS?
> 
> A one month affair?
> 
> A three year affair with one person?
> 
> Once is one time too many.
> 
> I see nothing to gain from rebuilding a house that your spouse burned down and pissed on the ashes. When it's far easier to buy a brand new house and not be foolish enough to let the arsonist back in.
> 
> Some of you say you are happier. Great, so am I and I don't have to wake up next to a cheater in the morning. Can't be all that bad.


Each person has latitude to define it as it suits them. It is the term "scumbag" that is at issue, not the act of infidelity.

I followed your original thread from way back. If you apply the term scumbag to your FWS, I will not argue with you.


----------



## wild jade

I don't think all people who have cheated are necessarily scumbags. We all make mistakes. But I can't for the life of me think of why I would want to stay with someone who cheated on me. Cheating sucks all the value out of the relationship, IMHO. 

And the more I read about them, the less inclined I am to think they have much value to begin with.


----------



## Wolf1974

blueinbr said:


> I doubt the probably of a person cheating again is any higher than the odds of a random person cheating for the first time. (Let's discard the less common, serial cheater from the stats because they distort the numbers. )


We will then have to agree to disagree on that point. Not my experience and not what I have seen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## BetrayedDad

2asdf2 said:


> It is the term "scumbag" that is at issue, not the act of infidelity.


I think the issue is whether you are a scumbag for life.

No, I think some people can change but I personally have no interest in second chances.


----------



## Cletus

wild jade said:


> I don't think all people who have cheated are necessarily scumbags. We all make mistakes. But I can't for the life of me think of why I would want to stay with someone who cheated on me. Cheating sucks all the value out of the relationship, IMHO.
> 
> And the more I read about them, the less inclined I am to think they have much value to begin with.


What value does my wife get out of staying married to me?

Let me dispense with humility for one post and answer that. Most of these are things that she _might_ get with a new spouse.

She gets a loving spouse. I know, you may not agree.
She gets considerable financial security, with an equal share in my income which contributes 80% of our money. 
She gets a spouse who is willing to accept her 3 sigma conservative sexual needs. That alone would be a deal breaker for most on any dating site post-divorce.
She gets to live with someone who shares most of her values
She gets to live with someone who values time with her
She has considerable career latitude and can in fact pursue career choices that would make life supporting herself far, far more difficult.
She gets someone who puts endless time into an endless list of major projects around the house. 
She gets a spouse who understands better than some how we can fail our marriage. This has already been applied to a separate issue in our marriage that might have been a serious wedge issue but for that realization. 

There's more I suppose, and of course a list of things lost too. But it's not all downside for her.


----------



## Cletus

BetrayedDad said:


> I think the issue is whether you are a scumbag for life.
> 
> No, I think some people can change but I personally have no interest in second chances.


That's a position that's easy to take until you're on the losing end of it.


----------



## blahfridge

What happens when you both cheat? My H had multiple affairs over the course of maybe 6 to 8 years, he was in effect a serial cheater. I'm still unsure of the number of affairs or how long it went on, but I am certain he's not cheated for the past 5 years. I had several EA's over the course of 3 years. Neither of us has come clean completely and I don't know if we ever will. So are we both scumbags or is he the bigger one because he was the first to go there and mine were never physical? 

My H is all in now in our marriage, he is in love with me again and has stopped cheating and cut way down on his drinking. He now treats me with respect and consideration while he waits to see if I will commit to reconciliation and release him from his now year and a half banishment to the basement. I am the problem now. I don't, no make that won't, allow myself to fully love him again and I still harbor feelings for the EA partner with whom I was most attached to. To a large degree, it is my pride that stands in the way. My H only decided he wanted me again when he saw that someone else wanted me. It was through my EA that he was able to finally accept responsibility for his own actions. Prior to that, he essentially blamed me for his cheating as he felt I wasn't as sexually available to him as I should have. He was also drinking heavily then and addicted to porn. All that is in the past now, so he's a former scumbag, I guess, while I am still an active one? 

My point in telling a little of my story is to show that these kinds of categories on TAM are often confusing, meaningless, and ultimately unhelpful.


----------



## BetrayedDad

Cletus said:


> That's a position that's easy to take until you're on the losing end of it.


That's why I choose not to make decisions that I can not accept the repercussions of.

No one deserves a second chance. If you get one, consider it a blessing.


----------



## NobodySpecial

2ntnuf said:


> Would I ever trust them alone around my wife? Nope.


That is absurd. You think someone can MAKE your wife cheat?


----------



## BetrayedDad

Random thought:

Anyone else find it slightly ironic that a "scumbag" is slang for a used condom when most cheaters don't condoms?


----------



## larry.gray

I was a bit surprised when I read your post yesterday. I too do not recall your thread. I went to look yesterday and could not find it.

Do you have a link?


----------



## 2ntnuf

Cletus said:


> *What value does my wife get out of staying married to me?
> *
> Let me dispense with humility for one post and answer that. Most of these are things that she _might_ get with a new spouse.
> 
> She gets a loving spouse. I know, you may not agree.
> 
> Can't answer that, it's opinion.
> 
> She gets considerable financial security, with an equal share in my income which contributes 80% of our money.
> 
> I doubt she got married for your money. I hope not. Again, my opinion here means little to nothing.
> 
> She gets a spouse who is willing to accept her 3 sigma conservative sexual needs. That alone would be a deal breaker for most on any dating site post-divorce.
> 
> Doesn't this really not tell the truth? You decided to have an affair. You didn't accept her. You now deal with your feelings about it, but the past shows you don't really accept it. So, my belief is you are kidding yourself or have become unattractive to those you'd find attractive?
> 
> 
> She gets to live with someone who shares most of her values
> 
> You have to breach a ton of values to be unfaithful. You don't just wipe them all out and then get them back when you decide never to hurt her again. Time and your actions will prove your assertion and restore many of those values.
> 
> 
> She gets to live with someone who values time with her
> 
> Values time with her or fears losing what he built for so long to what he believes is a moment of weakness?
> 
> She has considerable career latitude and can in fact pursue career choices that would make life supporting herself far, far more difficult.
> 
> She is trapped and has to stay if she wants to have the life she helped build with you, even after your disrespectful, unloving, uncaring, selfish actions?
> 
> She gets someone who puts endless time into an endless list of major projects around the house.
> 
> Helps keep your mind off the fact that you are horny. Also, helps to keep you two from fighting and gives you some pride that you lost with her. Though, that is inside of you and a part of the consequences of infidelity.
> 
> She gets a spouse who understands better than some how we can fail our marriage. This has already been applied to a separate issue in our marriage that might have been a serious wedge issue but for that realization.
> 
> Yes, how you and her can fail your marriage. Her because she is not as HD as you. You because you are not as LD as her. Both of you for not admitting you weren't compatible years ago and choosing to end it and find more suitable partners instead of both of you cringing at the thoughts of the other.
> 
> There's more I suppose, and of course a list of things lost too. But it's not all downside for her.


Cletus, I didn't mean for that to be too harsh. I'm just giving some perspective. Sometimes it helps to see things from the other side. You see, it's never really over, just swallowed for a time.


----------



## Cletus

larry.gray said:


> I was a bit surprised when I read your post yesterday. I too do not recall your thread. I went to look yesterday and could not find it.
> 
> Do you have a link.


No, I couldn't dredge it out of the history with a shovel even if I wanted to. Is there anything you want to know that I should post here?


----------



## Cletus

2ntnuf said:


> Cletus, I didn't mean for that to be too harsh. I'm just giving some perspective. Sometimes it helps to see things from the other side. You see, it's never really over, just swallowed for a time.


Anything is possible. Don't you think that a spouse who was staying trapped in a marriage of convenience would at some point start radiating disdain for her captor? I would have to be blind to not see it were it there. She gives me positive affirmation all the time, never letting me take for granted her affection or appreciation. This simply does not square with the actions of an imprisoned spouse. 

She knows that she gets half of everything in the divorce. What incentive does she really have to stay now that the children are out of the house? No, I do not think you paint an accurate picture of our reality.


----------



## 2ntnuf

NobodySpecial said:


> That is absurd. You think someone can MAKE your wife cheat?


Many women have a reactionary(responsive) drive. I'm not a woman, so I don't know how that would feel. I wouldn't want to take the chance. 

She certainly can talk in private about her emotions and troubles if she wants to. I won't be waiting for her to explain why she needed another man to help her flesh out her emotions and feelings, if she is my wife. 

No one could make anyone cheat. Just as Cletus wife's LD and lack of sex didn't cause him to have a moment of weakness with an understanding woman. Right.


----------



## Emmi

Cletus said:


> I don't know how to differentiate explanation from rationalization to your satisfaction other than to say that I would not recommend that anyone else who found himself in my position do what I did. If I rationalized it, I would be saying that it was an acceptable choice given the circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't say that. The marriage conditions that would make me consider cheating were inevitable, not the choice made. And that's why it's important to discuss it in a marriage forum. All of the "blah, blah, blah" responses don't help those who might find themselves in a similar circumstance.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have the desire to hash out all of that now in this time and place, but "more sex" is a pretty condensed version of the problem. I married a near-virgin who believed in chastity before marriage, too young and too naive to understand what this might imply about sexual incompatibility.
> 
> The right decision, in hindsight, might have been to end the marriage in the first year. The absolutely wrong decision was to cheat at year 20.
> 
> 
> You keep ascribing to me beliefs that I do not hold.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I am.


I am glad I misunderstood you and that you don't hold those beliefs. I still wonder if you have worked out the reasons for cheating that lie within yourself? What were you lacking personally that allowed you to act in that way? 

I see that you are making a distinction between the marital problems and the infidelity, however when you discuss both in the same context you are dangerously close to blaming the infidelity on the marriage. Even if that is not your intention, it could very easily be interpreted that way.

I understand that sexual issues in a marriage is important to address, but I also think it's very important to be clear on not blaming the spouse or the marriage for the choice to commit adultery. I understand that was not your intention, but like I said, you came very close.

I know the difference between explanation and rationalisation, however, the phrase "let me explain" after being caught usually contain a great deal of rationalisation. 

I wouldn't accept marital problems as an explanation for infidelity, sure they could be the circumstances, and partly the reasons for unhappiness, but never the main reason or explanation for infidelity. I believe happiness comes from within, and so does discontentment. If someone cheats there is something within them that allowed that to happen, and for complete restoration I believe those things must be found and worked through. It is not enough to only take precautions if those deep rooted issues are still present.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Cletus said:


> Anything is possible. Don't you think that a spouse who was staying trapped in a marriage of convenience would at some point start radiating disdain for her captor? I would have to be blind to not see it were it there. She gives me positive affirmation all the time, never letting me take for granted her affection or appreciation. This simply does not square with the actions of an imprisoned spouse.
> 
> She knows that she gets half of everything in the divorce. What incentive does she really have to stay now that the children are out of the house? No, I do not think you paint an accurate picture of our reality.


I'm sure I do not paint an accurate picture. I don't know either one of you. 

I do know that when a woman gets older, sometimes she doesn't give a damn about the sex or much more than her children and especially her grandchildren. She usually doesn't want to upset the applecart. It isn't worth it. It's much less worth it when the husband finally accepts who she is and gets off her back while staying out of her "hair".


----------



## NobodySpecial

2ntnuf said:


> I'm sure I do not paint an accurate picture. I don't know either one of you.
> 
> I do know that when a woman gets older, sometimes she doesn't give a damn about the sex or much more than her children and especially her grandchildren.


Goodness I hope that never happens to me! But I already am "older" so maybe I will get lucky.


----------



## 2ntnuf

NobodySpecial said:


> Goodness I hope that never happens to me! But I already am "older" so maybe I will get lucky.


Obviously, NAWALT. Just as not all men are unfaithful.

Has it been more than a year since you had your last period? 

If so, good for you, your husband and the rest of the folks you have fun with from time to time.


----------



## becareful2

Cletus said:


> She gets a spouse who is willing to accept her 3 sigma conservative sexual needs. That alone would be a deal breaker for most on any dating site post-divorce.


What does that mean? I am understanding you correctly that you and your wife are now swingers based on the other thread?


----------



## NobodySpecial

becareful2 said:


> What does that mean? I am understanding you correctly that you and your wife are now swingers based on the other thread?


No. No. No. He just discusses things from a thoughtful perspective.


----------



## Cletus

Emmi said:


> I am glad I misunderstood you and that you don't hold those beliefs. I still wonder if you have worked out the reasons for cheating that lie within yourself? What were you lacking personally that allowed you to act in that way?


It's never been a secret. I was in a sexually incompatible marriage. At first, I thought it would get better. It did not, substantially. I thought I could gut it out, but I failed. When I considered that I might spend 50 or 60 years of my life without ever having sex with an enthusiastic partner, I despaired, and I cheated. 

Why didn't I want to get a divorce? Because I had a good spouse with whom I was otherwise happy and compatible. I wanted my cake and to eat it too. I looked for an outlet for the one thing my wife could not supply. 

It really isn't any more complex than that. 



> I believe happiness comes from within, and so does discontentment. If someone cheats there is something within them that allowed that to happen, and for complete restoration I believe those things must be found and worked through. It is not enough to only take precautions if those deep rooted issues are still present.


Some things cannot be fixed, only accepted. When two people cannot come to a mutual agreement on something basic like what they will do in the bedroom, when compromise is impossible, then they must either split up or one of them has to accept the situation. 

That's a deep rooted issue that doesn't just get fixed, and it's not a character flaw of either partner. It is simple incompatibility. It's square hole and round peg.


----------



## jld

Did you cheat with a co-worker, @Cletus?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## NobodySpecial

2ntnuf said:


> Obviously, NAWALT. Just as not all men are unfaithful.
> 
> Has it been more than a year since you had your last period?


Several years since I had a hysterectomy a few years ago, so it is clearly not predictive of the physical change. But I am of the right age and have been experiencing hot flashes. We shall see.


----------



## Cletus

becareful2 said:


> What does that mean? I am understanding you correctly that you and your wife are now swingers based on the other thread?


Yikes! The thought of my wife swinging is enough to make my head explode.

It simply means that I let her control our sex life. The what, when, why, how, and where of it. I impose nothing on her that she doesn't enthusiastically embrace, and that includes doing things that I know she will tolerate but doesn't really care for. She in turn tries to accept a little more than she is comfortable with. 

Several years on this forum tell me that most men would not accept her sexual restrictions, at least not if they knew them up front. Certainly not most men of our age.


----------



## becareful2

LOL, sorry, I haven't read all the posts in that thread.

If you were in the mood, do you approach her or let your guys turn blue?


----------



## Cletus

becareful2 said:


> LOL, sorry, I haven't read all the posts in that thread.
> 
> If you were in the mood, do you approach her or let your guys turn blue?


She won't turn me down most of the time, but I know how much better it is when she initiates. Our problem isn't lack of frequency - sure, I could always use more, but instead one of differing definitions of what constitutes satisfying sex.

I don't post much in the sex in marriage forum any more because I really have FTMP gotten to the point of acceptance. I know and embrace my reality, far better than I did before.


----------



## *Deidre*

I don't really look at cheaters as 'scumbags,' for any of us can fall prey to the temptations of every day life, if we allow it. Of what I've seen of cheaters, often times, it has nothing to do with the relationship they're in being bad or whatever. But, it's common for a betrayed person to feel that it was personal to them. Having said that, cheating would be a deal breaker for me in a marriage...one time offense or a full blown affair. Not because I'd feel the person is unforgivable, but rather that I'd likely never forget it, and the trust would just be gone. Respect for those betrayed spouses who find the will to trust their spouses again, and rebuild their marriages - it takes a lot of courage, and strength.


----------



## sapientia

@Cletus - Why are you willingly offering yourself up to the mob? All that matters is that you and your wife have come to a place of acceptance, through your love of each other. Some of those who are coming after you are simply jealous of your love or looking for a scapegoat because they can't reconcile their own experience. They WISH they had a spouse that faced the fire like you and your wife did and came out the other side wiser and happier.

Congratulations to you both for your hard-won marriage success. Kind wishes for continued happiness going forward.


----------



## Emmi

BetrayedDad said:


> Random thought:
> 
> Anyone else find it slightly ironic that a "scumbag" is slang for a used condom when most cheaters don't condoms?


Sounds like scumbag is the perfect and quite accurate description for an OW, as in many cases she holds no greater meaning than a used condom would.

(Disclaimer: mainly meant as a joke with a slight hint of bitterness)


----------



## *Deidre*

I've known ''other women'' and ''other men'' who didn't even know they were sleeping with married people.  Hard to imagine having a long term relationship with someone who you only see part time and not suspect that they ''might'' be married...but, it happens. I don't see them as scumbags either...because most married people who enter into affairs lie about the statuses of their marriages. A friend of mine got involved with a marriage guy and he told her all types of stories ''my wife doesn't get me the way you do,'' and ''i'm leaving her as soon as the finances are in order...'' etc...

It's just a sad situation all around, but still don't see those that get caught up in this as 'scumbags.' I see them as hurting and broken, and looking for love in all the wrong places.


----------



## 2ntnuf

NobodySpecial said:


> Several years since I had a hysterectomy a few years ago, so it is clearly not predictive of the physical change. But I am of the right age and have been experiencing hot flashes. We shall see.


I wish you luck. Your's is a different circumstance than I've read about so often.


----------



## Cletus

sapientia said:


> @Cletus - Why are you willingly offering yourself up to the mob?


I'm sure you've heard the H. L. Mencken quote "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."

I think the opinions of the adultery reductionists are in many cases too simple. I think that some wayward spouses get an appropriate amount of blowback for their mistakes that then leaks into an inappropriate dismissal of their complete character. (I also think that some of them are just plain "scumbags" . ) I absolutely have information useful to some small set of people with a particular issue who want to avoid having infidelity touch their marriage - either by avoiding marriage in the first place, or ignoring the fertile soil that lets it fester. 

Maybe I have something to offer that a newbie with a 5 post history can't. I have nothing really to lose - I have no prestige to wager, no real-life ramifications will come from these discussions, and all I'll waste if I waste anything is my time. I'm tired of seeing people shy away from a conversation from fear of getting their nose bloodied. Step up! Take your shots!



> Congratulations to you both for your hard-won marriage success. Kind wishes for continued happiness going forward.


Aw shucks, thanks. We intend to do the best that we can, and pick each other up when we stumble. Then learn from our mistakes. And damn, I made a doozy of a lesson.


----------



## Cletus

*Deidre* said:


> Respect for those betrayed spouses who find the will to trust their spouses again, and rebuild their marriages - it takes a lot of courage, and strength.


And time. No amount of the first two will overcome an inadequate amount of time. 

My affair is now over a third of my marriage behind me. It seems that it took somewhere around 10 years to be as behind us as it's going to be. That means it's still uncomfortable to watch "Fatal Attraction" together. Probably always will be.


----------



## 225985

Wolf1974 said:


> We will then have to agree to disagree on that point. Not my experience and not what I have seen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Well, we are a small sample group. Accurate data on cheating is hard to get, even when anonymous. All we each have is anecdotal evidence.


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> Did you cheat with a co-worker, @Cletus?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. Ex-girlfriend who sought me out with whom I had a satisfying sexual relationship prior to getting married. 

So now I maintain a "no contact" rule with anyone from my past.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Cletus said:


> It's never been a secret. I was in a sexually incompatible marriage. At first, I thought it would get better. It did not, substantially. I thought I could gut it out, but I failed. When I considered that I might spend 50 or 60 years of my life without ever having sex with an enthusiastic partner, I despaired, and I cheated.
> 
> Why didn't I want to get a divorce? Because I had a good spouse with whom I was otherwise happy and compatible. *I wanted my cake and to eat it too. I looked for an outlet for the one thing my wife could not supply.
> *
> It really isn't any more complex than that.
> 
> 
> 
> Some things cannot be fixed, only accepted. When two people cannot come to a mutual agreement on something basic like what they will do in the bedroom, when compromise is impossible, then they must either split up or one of them has to accept the situation.
> 
> That's a deep rooted issue that doesn't just get fixed, and it's not a character flaw of either partner. It is simple incompatibility. It's square hole and round peg.


The bold is simple truth from your point of view. 


As to the underlined, I agree if you are saying that incompatibility isn't a character flaw. 

I don't know if weakness is a character flaw or a learned behavior. Weakness that leads to infidelity rather than counseling and/or divorce may be a character flaw, if you weren't exposed to it like some here were in their childhood and years of formation. Those who saw it as a child learned from those they had to trust and maybe loved that infidelity seemed to be okay. 

A moment of weakness is still weakness. We all have weaknesses. Some folks can get past the weakness that drove their spouse's infidelity and continue on with their marriage. 

It's never the same marriage. Better, worse or some other adjective is subjective. 

I truthfully don't want to see either of you unhappy, Cletus. It isn't fair for either of you.

ETA: Stubbornness and unwillingness to look at what is instead of staying in denial about how terrible something really is, may be a character flaw. It may also be a learned behavior. I'm guilty of staying in denial about things. There are fingers pointing at me, too.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Cletus said:


> Every marriage has its struggles - I am thankful that mine are not financial, or substance abuse, *or troll doll collecting*.




Hey, now wait a minute here; what's wrong with troll doll collecting?


----------



## Cletus

notmyrealname4 said:


> Hey, now wait a minute here; what's wrong with troll doll collecting?


I've reported your post as offensive. You can expect a ban any minute now.


----------



## frusdil

Cletus, I'm not sure why my post on the other thread has affected you so much...I did NOT call YOU a scumbag. I simply stated my opinion - which is neither right or wrong, it's simply my opinion. All of our views here on TAM are shaped by our own experiences.

Now, you can go ahead and say "Oh but you said X and that means you did call me Y". I'm sorry, but I did not do that. You can choose to take it any way you like, but my post was a general post, directed at no one in particular.

I'm sorry that my post upset you, I truly am, it was not my intention to do that - to anyone - and for that I am genuinely sorry.


----------



## frusdil

Wolf1974 said:


> In other words if I found out today that my brother was cheating on his wife would I end all contact with him? Maybe for awhile but not ever. My relationship with him as my brother is that relationship and in that context. The flip side is then that I wouldn't form a relationship with a woman who cheated because it's in that context where her character failed if that makes sense.


^This. Same here. I would still love my brother of course, as would you. But that doesn't mean I have to love all of his choices.


----------



## Cletus

frusdil said:


> Cletus, I'm not sure why my post on the other thread has affected you so much...I did NOT call YOU a scumbag.


No, that just lit the match I'd been holding in my hand for about a week now. No absolution is necessary. I'm not upset - I wanted this conversation but hadn't decided how to approach it. If you'd been the only person to use the term or its many synonyms, I probably wouldn't have even noticed. 

We are good.


----------



## 2ntnuf

frusdil said:


> ^This. Same here. I would still love my brother of course, as would you. But that doesn't mean I have to love all of his choices.


Or any sibling, but remember, you can pick your friends, but not your family. Once mom and dad are gone, you might choose to pick which relatives you spend the most time with. 

I've seen that happen. 

I also have a sibling who has very likely been unfaithful and it sucks to feel conflicted. I put my feelings aside as best I can when we are visiting, like any other decent sibling.



Glad you could get the anger out of you, Cletus.


----------



## notmyrealname4

@Cletus @frusdil


Yay!!!:yay:


----------



## sapientia

Cletus said:


> Aw shucks, thanks. We intend to do the best that we can, and pick each other up when we stumble. Then learn from our mistakes. And damn, I made a doozy of a lesson.


Hey, someone famous said 
_By seeking and blundering we learn._

So what are we if we aren't learning?

Experience may be the bitterest way to gain wisdom (that one is Confucious), but it's also how the lesson sticks best, IMO.

My ex and I couldn't get there, and we tried for 2 decades. Leaving is actually much easier than staying, IMO, hence my admiration for what you and your wife have finally achieved.


----------



## 2ntnuf

*Deidre* said:


> I don't really look at cheaters as 'scumbags,' for any of us can fall prey to the temptations of every day life, if we allow it. Of what I've seen of cheaters, often times, it has nothing to do with the relationship they're in being bad or whatever. But, it's common for a betrayed person to feel that it was personal to them. Having said that, cheating would be a deal breaker for me in a marriage...one time offense or a full blown affair. Not because I'd feel the person is unforgivable, but rather that I'd likely never forget it, and the trust would just be gone. Respect for those betrayed spouses who find the will to trust their spouses again, and rebuild their marriages - it takes a lot of courage, and strength.


I don't think I feel respect for those who reconcile. 

The growth is really just acceptance by each spouse that the other was at fault without actually stating that. Accepting the other will always be in denial. Learning how to not trigger each other to, on one side, act badly causing the other to be vulnerable to cheating again. The other stepping back and deciding they won't cheat again even if and when the same circumstances arise. Because, they will arise again to at least some extent. 

The new "love" won't be much more than walking on eggshells while attempting to keep personal promises they broke before. 

For me, it's just terribly sad to think about it. It feels more like keeping obligations than a desire to please. Then, find happiness in the brief moments you can.


----------



## larry.gray

Cletus said:


> No, I couldn't dredge it out of the history with a shovel even if I wanted to. Is there anything you want to know that I should post here?


If I tried I might come up with a good, plausable reason for you to post. But ilthe honest answer is actually me being both nosey and morbidly curious.

I've talked a bit to EI about the topic. At one point I could have gone down your or her path. But circumstances were such that when the opportunity wasn't there when I was vulnerable.

I've suggested to her to warn against that risk when a non-trollish poster talks about considering cheating. I'd encourage you to do the same.


----------



## larry.gray

Cletus said:


> No. Ex-girlfriend who sought me out with whom I had a satisfying sexual relationship prior to getting married.
> 
> So now I maintain a "no contact" rule with anyone from my past.


Unless she's a really messed up lady, I don't see how you stay away.


----------



## *Deidre*

2ntnuf said:


> I don't think I feel respect for those who reconcile.
> 
> The growth is really just acceptance by each spouse that the other was at fault without actually stating that. Accepting the other will always be in denial. Learning how to not trigger each other to, on one side, act badly causing the other to be vulnerable to cheating again. The other stepping back and deciding they won't cheat again even if and when the same circumstances arise. Because, they will arise again to at least some extent.
> 
> The new "love" won't be much more than walking on eggshells while attempting to keep personal promises they broke before.
> 
> For me, it's just terribly sad to think about it. It feels more like keeping obligations than a desire to please. Then, find happiness in the brief moments you can.


Well, respect for those who do it for the right reasons. I imagine some people stay together in marriages for all sorts of reasons, that have little to do with love and respect for each other. I wouldn't want to stay with someone who cheats, because there's plenty of people in the world who won't. It's not like the common cold, and eventually ...sooner or later everyone will 'catch it.' lol Faithfulness is a choice. And breaking it is also a choice.


----------



## LucasJackson

*Deidre* said:


> Well, respect for those who do it for the right reasons. I imagine some people stay together in marriages for all sorts of reasons, that have little to do with love and respect for each other. I wouldn't want to stay with someone who cheats, because there's plenty of people in the world who won't. It's not like the common cold, and eventually ...sooner or later everyone will 'catch it.' lol Faithfulness is a choice. And breaking it is also a choice.


If cheaters convince themselves that "everybody does it" then they can feel less bad about themselves. The thing is, everybody doesn't do it. That's like saying at some point in time everybody will rob a bank. I can promise you that I, you, and billions of people on this planet will go their whole lives and never rob a bank or cheat on a partner. Everybody, indeed, does not do it.


----------



## *Deidre*

LucasJackson said:


> If cheaters convince themselves that "everybody does it" then they can feel less bad about themselves. The thing is, everybody doesn't do it. That's like saying at some point in time everybody will rob a bank. I can promise you that I, you, and billions of people on this planet will go their whole lives and never rob a bank or cheat on a partner. Everybody, indeed, does not do it.


I wonder what it might be like to rob a bank. JK! 

Remember though, we're all sinners...you or I or whoever else may never cheat, but I assure you...we have different sins we all struggle with, as that's part of being human.


----------



## LucasJackson

*Deidre* said:


> I wonder what it might be like to rob a bank. JK!
> 
> Remember though, we're all sinners...you or I or whoever else may never cheat, but I assure you...we have different sins we all struggle with, as that's part of being human.


Sure, we're all sinners. I exceed posted speed limits. I tear the label off mattresses. I've downloaded music without paying for it. Have I ever cheated? No. Would I? No. That's just about one of the worst things you can do in life in my opinion. It's worse than guys who mug old ladies in the park. Those people victimize people they don't know. Cheaters, however, plunge knives into the hearts of the person they've taken vows with to never do that very thing. Again, about as low of a thing as a person can do.


----------



## *Deidre*

LucasJackson said:


> Sure, we're all sinners. I exceed posted speed limits. I tear the label off mattresses.


 Blasphemer! 0 



> I've downloaded music without paying for it. Have I ever cheated? No. Would I? No. That's just about one of the worst things you can do in life in my opinion. It's worse than guys who mug old ladies in the park. Those people victimize people they don't know. Cheaters, however, plunge knives into the hearts of the person they've taken vows with to never do that very thing. Again, about as low of a thing as a person can do.


Are you a Christian? If so, I've started looking at people the way Jesus does, or trying to. He sees the good in us all, and if there is darkness, He is the healer ...and so, if a cheater is repentant and changes his/her ways, God forgives. It's in learning from the pain you've caused others and not doing it again, that matters. But, while I'd be able to forgive the person, the marriage would be over. Forgiveness doesn't require that we remain in relationships that aren't healthy for us.


----------



## Openminded

IIRC, your past threads were about your wife being LD and the problems associated with that. Then one day you admitted you had cheated in the past. Maybe you had mentioned it before and those who were new at the time didn't realize that was the case (I didn't remember reading about it before that post). 

After that, your support was not as strong as it had been before. Many felt you had lost the right to complain about your wife because you had cheated. Soon after that you took a break from TAM. Did your new acceptance of your wife's sexual views happen during your break? You seem more at peace now and you weren't before. 

(Hopefully I'm not misrepresenting the way events occurred. I'm relying on my sometimes faulty memory.)


----------



## Ceegee

*Deidre* said:


> Blasphemer! 0
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you a Christian? If so, I've started looking at people the way Jesus does, or trying to. He sees the good in us all, and if there is darkness, He is the healer ...and so, if a cheater is repentant and changes his/her ways, God forgives. It's in learning from the pain you've caused others and not doing it again, that matters. But, while I'd be able to forgive the person, the marriage would be over. Forgiveness doesn't require that we remain in relationships that aren't healthy for us.




Uh, Jesus see the good in us all?

Why did He die?

He is the Healer, yes. 

Last sentence is spot on. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ceegee

LucasJackson said:


> If cheaters convince themselves that "everybody does it" then they can feel less bad about themselves. The thing is, everybody doesn't do it. That's like saying at some point in time everybody will rob a bank. I can promise you that I, you, and billions of people on this planet will go their whole lives and never rob a bank or cheat on a partner. Everybody, indeed, does not do it.




I don't think most cheaters convince themselves everyone does it to make themselves feel better. 

It's more personal than that and that's what makes its so painful. 

Most justify it because of their partner. 

"I f4cked him because you never put the lid on the toothpaste and you put the toilet paper on backwards!"

Blaming the BS for the crushing actions perpetrated against him/her. 

"You made me do this to you!"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Wazza

larry.gray said:


> But circumstances were such that when the opportunity wasn't there when I was vulnerable.


To me this is it in a nutshell. 

Cheating is about temptation and the vulnerability to fall for it. There are many things that play into that, and the personal defects of the cheater are one of several factors. I think it best to consepider each case as a whole before passing judgement.


----------



## Wazza

*Deidre* said:


> Well, respect for those who do it for the right reasons. I imagine some people stay together in marriages for all sorts of reasons, that have little to do with love and respect for each other. I wouldn't want to stay with someone who cheats, because there's plenty of people in the world who won't. It's not like the common cold, and eventually ...sooner or later everyone will 'catch it.' lol Faithfulness is a choice. And breaking it is also a choice.


I think someone who has made the mistake and learned from it might be a better risk than someone who thinks they are immune.


----------



## LucasJackson

Wazza said:


> I think someone who has made the mistake and learned from it might be a better risk than someone who thinks they are immune.


I'm starting to believe this very thing. Even with my own WW.


----------



## Ceegee

Wazza said:


> I think someone who has made the mistake and learned from it might be a better risk than someone who thinks they are immune.




Maybe. 

Even better is someone who knows that no one is immune and puts boundaries in place to protect their principles. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Wazza

Ceegee said:


> Maybe.
> 
> Even better is someone who knows that no one is immune and puts boundaries in place to protect their principles.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Agree. I would say my wife did that, but got the boundaries wrong.


----------



## *Deidre*

Wazza said:


> I think someone who has made the mistake and learned from it might be a better risk than someone who thinks they are immune.


No one said here that anyone is immune. But, it's a choice to stay faithful, or not. It doesn't just ''happen.''


----------



## *Deidre*

LucasJackson said:


> I'm starting to believe this very thing. Even with my own WW.


Sorry to hear you went through this, Lucas. I don't know your story. 

I've never been married, but I was in a relationship and was cheated on. It's not the same as a marriage, but it hurts just the same. How does one ever know to trust again after something like that? I guess we just have to trust despite the fears. I'm in a relationship now, and so far, very happy...hopefully, we will make choices that don't hurt one another.


----------



## drifting on

Emmi said:


> Sounds like scumbag is the perfect and quite accurate description for an OW, as in many cases she holds no greater meaning than a used condom would.
> 
> (Disclaimer: mainly meant as a joke with a slight hint of bitterness)




Ouch!!! This almost made my knees buckle and flipped my stomach. Although I understand what you are saying this struck me deep.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

LucasJackson said:


> I'm starting to believe this very thing. Even with my own WW.


Change of heart?

Is she getting to you?


----------



## LucasJackson

*Deidre* said:


> Sorry to hear you went through this, Lucas. I don't know your story.
> 
> I've never been married, but I was in a relationship and was cheated on. It's not the same as a marriage, but it hurts just the same. How does one ever know to trust again after something like that? I guess we just have to trust despite the fears. I'm in a relationship now, and so far, very happy...hopefully, we will make choices that don't hurt one another.


I struggle with that every day. I can divorce and move on. Look for another wonderful woman but I don't know if I can trust her. I can stay married to my WW, whom I've sworn I'm going to divorce and even had her served with papers recently, and take a chance that she has realized she royally screwed up and would know to never do it again.

She's been using the divorce busting website and some of that crap starts to work on us spouses that are pretty sure we want a divorce.


----------



## Wolf1974

blueinbr said:


> Well, we are a small sample group. Accurate data on cheating is hard to get, even when anonymous. All we each have is anecdotal evidence.


If you call it that fine by me but I bet research is out there go back it up. But even if not it's no matter to me. when it happens to you then you boil things down to a Risk vs reward mentality. I won't risk being cheated on with someone who has a history of cheating. If you think history has no meaning by all means have at it :smile2:


----------



## drifting on

frusdil said:


> ^This. Same here. I would still love my brother of course, as would you. But that doesn't mean I have to love all of his choices.




I haven't told anyone outside of therapists of my wife's infidelity. My wife and I each decided to each tell one person, a person we both agreed upon. My wife chose her cousin, I approved, I chose my sister, my wife approved. The night I told my sister she revealed she was cheating on her husband for FOURTEEN YEARS!!! I was dumbfounded and crushed, I considered to be an ally for my wife now and not me. I told my sister who wanted a divorce to do just that. She came up with excuses, no time to get away from work, no money to file, and so on. I covered rather money, she found a way to do it almost all online if uncontested. She offered her husband a good settlement and refinanced the house. She is now divorced, but I have told her this, cheat again and I'll be an only child. 

I may be wrong in my thinking, but I'll be damned if I stand by her cheating again. This was my own sister!!! Same parents as I, same upbringing as I, how does one go astray so badly and one doesn't? I may have been a scumbag in my youth as I said in my earlier post, but I respected and honored my marriage. That wasn't enough to make me a perfect husband, but I wasn't the worst either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

Cletus,

So I'm going to use the typing test scoring model here.

The simplest model goes like this:
Correct words - (6 times the number of errors)

Let's say 60 words / minute (after adjusting for errors) is a pass
And 75 is good - same deal here - after adjusting for errors
And 90 is great - error adjusted 

So here's my question. You have to choose option 1 or 2. 

Option 1: Great spouse - compatible - loves you and treats you really well. Is generally very honest AND brings out your best. 

Has a one time one month affair in year 25. Ends it - confesses - begs forgiveness. 

Option 2: Mediocre spouse. A bit lazy and selfish in and out of bed. And not very happy themselves nor fun for you to be around.
But they never cheat. They love you for a few years and then after that - they don't seem that into you.

And please don't - just don't ok. There is no option three: great spouse doesn't cheat. 

Because to me this is such a no brainer. 

The M2/Dan thing - which lasted way more than a month - was painful. It was an outlier. 

I still love M2 same as before. 





Cletus said:


> What value does my wife get out of staying married to me?
> 
> Let me dispense with humility for one post and answer that. Most of these are things that she _might_ get with a new spouse.
> 
> She gets a loving spouse. I know, you may not agree.
> She gets considerable financial security, with an equal share in my income which contributes 80% of our money.
> She gets a spouse who is willing to accept her 3 sigma conservative sexual needs. That alone would be a deal breaker for most on any dating site post-divorce.
> She gets to live with someone who shares most of her values
> She gets to live with someone who values time with her
> She has considerable career latitude and can in fact pursue career choices that would make life supporting herself far, far more difficult.
> She gets someone who puts endless time into an endless list of major projects around the house.
> She gets a spouse who understands better than some how we can fail our marriage. This has already been applied to a separate issue in our marriage that might have been a serious wedge issue but for that realization.
> 
> There's more I suppose, and of course a list of things lost too. But it's not all downside for her.


----------



## drifting on

*Deidre* said:


> Blasphemer! 0
> 
> 
> 
> Are you a Christian? If so, I've started looking at people the way Jesus does, or trying to. He sees the good in us all, and if there is darkness, He is the healer ...and so, if a cheater is repentant and changes his/her ways, God forgives. It's in learning from the pain you've caused others and not doing it again, that matters. But, while I'd be able to forgive the person, the marriage would be over. Forgiveness doesn't require that we remain in relationships that aren't healthy for us.




I am a Christian man, and I too try to see the good in people. I normally deal with bad people eight hours a day, so when I go home it's the last thing I want to deal with at home. However many here will tell you my wife is vile, deserves nothing, but I see beyond that, I see a woman who is fallible and broken. I also see her giving her all to be the best she can be, and honestly, I didn't think she could do it. She has, and all the while we are both human, both fallible, both broken, both trying to heal, both trying to build a new marriage, both loving each other the best we can. It is up to God to judge, not me not my wife, it is God and God only. I am no better then my neighbor, nor is she, WS are sinners as all of us are. We are simply trying to be the best us we can be. 

It is easy to judge others, it is easy to think I am better then most, but who are you to make that determination? Simply you can think that, but you are now judging which none of us are to do. Just because I'm Christian does not mean that I will get in to heaven, and my suspicion is that I won't, but I can be a better man if I live my life according to Gods will. I do this now, but it's possible I came to realize this too late in life. That is my consequence, my punishment from the highest power, and yet I am not bitter but instead in full agreement with whatever God chooses for me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## drifting on

*Deidre* said:


> Sorry to hear you went through this, Lucas. I don't know your story.
> 
> I've never been married, but I was in a relationship and was cheated on. It's not the same as a marriage, but it hurts just the same. How does one ever know to trust again after something like that? I guess we just have to trust despite the fears. I'm in a relationship now, and so far, very happy...hopefully, we will make choices that don't hurt one another.




It's called the leap of faith, you just never saw it that way until infidelity happened to you. In every relationship you enter you take a leap of faith. It's just not recognized unless you have been through infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

*Deidre* said:


> No one said here that anyone is immune. But, it's a choice to stay faithful, or not. It doesn't just ''happen.''


Yep, it's a choice, or a series of choices. But they are made in a context.

When I say it was a mistake, it doesn't mean I am excusing it.


----------



## jld

LucasJackson said:


> I struggle with that every day. I can divorce and move on. Look for another wonderful woman but I don't know if I can trust her. I can stay married to my WW, whom I've sworn I'm going to divorce and even had her served with papers recently, and take a chance that she has realized she royally screwed up and would know to never do it again.
> 
> She's been using the divorce busting website and some of that crap starts to work on us spouses that are pretty sure we want a divorce.


You could still divorce and date later. I think that is what Hantei is planning to do.

It is interesting how effective that website seems to be, though.


----------



## john117

It is easy for those in functioning marriages to comment on the scumbag-ness of WS's. Things become a lot murkier when the marriage disintegrates. 

But, as I have often pontificated, empathy - the real kind - is not in ample supply around here. 

My best friend decided on a long term affair after his wife gave up on their marriage in every aspect. In a story eeriely parallel to mine, his wife zombied out of the picture. But, in his case, wife is 300+ lb, unable to find a job due to low skills, and health issues. So he either takes one for the team, or divorces her to a life of misery, junk food and laptop games, or has a long term affair.

Definitely not scumbag in my book.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> It is easy for those in functioning marriages to comment on the scumbag-ness of WS's. Things become a lot murkier when the marriage disintegrates.
> 
> But, as I have often pontificated, empathy - the real kind - is not in ample supply around here.
> 
> My best friend decided on a long term affair after his wife gave up on their marriage in every aspect. In a story eeriely parallel to mine, his wife zombied out of the picture. But, in his case, wife is 300+ lb, unable to find a job due to low skills, and health issues. So he either takes one for the team, or divorces her to a life of misery, junk food and laptop games, or has a long term affair.
> 
> Definitely not scumbag in my book.


Sounds like, in some ways, he _is_ taking one for the team.

Not sure where all these labels--scumbag, skank, ****, *****, etc.--come from. I guess people have to differentiate between themselves and "the other." Easier than seeing how we _all_ fall short, I suppose.


----------



## john117

I know his wife very well. Think Mrs. Copper Top without the teaching credentials . Ate herself to 300lb and untreated depression. His AP was in dire straits after being dumped by her cheating husband and 5 kids and little financial support. He helped his AP complete her nursing degree, and did an awesome job with her kids as well.

He offered his wife to go back to college, she was too busy. Awesome father to his two kids. 

The guy is a saint as far as I know...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> I know his wife very well. Think Mrs. Copper Top without the teaching credentials . Ate herself to 300lb and untreated depression. His AP was in dire straits after being dumped by her cheating husband and 5 kids and little financial support. He helped his AP complete her nursing degree, and did an awesome job with her kids as well.
> 
> He offered his wife to go back to college, she was too busy. Awesome father to his two kids.
> 
> The guy is a saint as far as I know...


Wow, he sounds like it. He basically took responsibility for two families. Hard to criticize that.

Human relationships are complex. Cletus mentioned "adultery reductionists," and I think that is a good description of lots of folks here on CWI. 

But that is where they are right now. Later on, their thinking might become more nuanced. Or maybe not.


----------



## wild jade

MEM11363 said:


> Cletus,
> 
> So I'm going to use the typing test scoring model here.
> 
> The simplest model goes like this:
> Correct words - (6 times the number of errors)
> 
> Let's say 60 words / minute (after adjusting for errors) is a pass
> And 75 is good - same deal here - after adjusting for errors
> And 90 is great - error adjusted
> 
> So here's my question. You have to choose option 1 or 2.
> 
> Option 1: Great spouse - compatible - loves you and treats you really well. Is generally very honest AND brings out your best.
> 
> Has a one time one month affair in year 25. Ends it - confesses - begs forgiveness.
> 
> Option 2: Mediocre spouse. A bit lazy and selfish in and out of bed. And not very happy themselves nor fun for you to be around.
> But they never cheat. They love you for a few years and then after that - they don't seem that into you.
> 
> And please don't - just don't ok. There is no option three: great spouse doesn't cheat.
> 
> Because to me this is such a no brainer.
> 
> The M2/Dan thing - which lasted way more than a month - was painful. It was an outlier.
> 
> I* still love M2 same as before.*


How do you even begin to do that? Everyone has their flaws, no doubt, and there is no perfect mate. No matter who we choose, we will have to put up with things we don't like.

Maybe I'm too much of a loner or something. I just couldn't keep loving someone that I didn't really trust. And I couldn't trust someone who betrayed me like that. 

All of hubby's wonderful qualities would evaporate in a nanosecond, and in my eyes, he would just be some dude who I need to steer clear of or he will hurt me again.


----------



## MEM2020

Jade,
Five years ago - M2 confessed that - 20 years earlier she had helped out a family member financially - behind my back and directly against my wishes. 

We're out walking - she tells me this - I look over - and she looks really anxious. 

So I just ask her - how many times she has done that during the marriage. Once she says - just once. I ask her - babe - it's 20 years past now - it was 500 dollars - why are you telling me this?

M2 says it's been bothering her ever since. 

I just shrug and say - that's sad - and I hope the 500 helped your cousin. 

So let me get this straight - I should now not trust M2 because 25 years ago, under some family pressure she was dishonest with how she handled something financial? Despite being totally honest and disciplined with money the whole rest of the marriage. 





wild jade said:


> How do you even begin to do that? Everyone has their flaws, no doubt, and there is no perfect mate. No matter who we choose, we will have to put up with things we don't like.
> 
> Maybe I'm too much of a loner or something. I just couldn't keep loving someone that I didn't really trust. And I couldn't trust someone who betrayed me like that.
> 
> All of hubby's wonderful qualities would evaporate in a nanosecond, and in my eyes, he would just be some dude who I need to steer clear of or he will hurt me again.


----------



## john117

If $500 was a months wages for you back then, it would be a bit different than if it was pocket change... Context is king.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Jade,
> Five years ago - M2 confessed that - 20 years earlier she had helped out a family member financially - behind my back and directly against my wishes.
> 
> We're out walking - she tells me this - I look over - and she looks really anxious.
> 
> So I just ask her - how many times she has done that during the marriage. Once she says - just once. I ask her - babe - it's 20 years past now - it was 500 dollars - why are you telling me this?
> 
> M2 says it's been bothering her ever since.
> 
> I just shrug and say - that's sad - and I hope the 500 helped your cousin.
> 
> So let me get this straight - I should now not trust M2 because 25 years ago, under some family pressure she was dishonest with how she handled something financial? Despite being totally honest and disciplined with money the whole rest of the marriage.


MEM, why did she feel she could not tell you back then?


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> If $500 was a months wages for you back then, it would be a bit different than if it was pocket change... Context is king.


It may have just been the principle of the thing. She might have felt guilty about not telling him about $20, too.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
Maybe use my mod powers change your screen name to Loki. 

It wasn't a month of income or even a week. It was below the threshold of me noticing. You folks are a cold unforgiving lot. 

If a single instance in 25 years isn't an outlier - what is? 






john117 said:


> If $500 was a months wages for you back then, it would be a bit different than if it was pocket change... Context is king.


----------



## *Deidre*

I do wonder though how people who get involved with married people, how do they process that in order to be involved with this person, that the person is lying to their spouse in order to be with you? That wouldn't make me feel very good, honestly. And if this person would lie to someone he/she took vows with, then lying to someone you're just sleeping with on the side, might be even easier. That saying 'if they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you,' is coming to mind.


----------



## 5Creed

Cletus-just curious if you would have left your wife if she had cheated on you? I imagine it would have been a hard thing to accept especially not being compatible in the bedroom.


----------



## Cletus

MEM11363 said:


> Cletus,
> So here's my question. You have to choose option 1 or 2.
> 
> Option 1: Great spouse - compatible - loves you and treats you really well. Is generally very honest AND brings out your best.
> 
> Has a one time one month affair in year 25. Ends it - confesses - begs forgiveness.
> 
> Option 2: Mediocre spouse. A bit lazy and selfish in and out of bed. And not very happy themselves nor fun for you to be around.
> But they never cheat. They love you for a few years and then after that - they don't seem that into you.


Option #1. Every day of the week. Fortunately, I think my spouse agrees.


----------



## Cletus

5Creed said:


> Cletus-just curious if you would have left your wife if she had cheated on you? I imagine it would have been a hard thing to accept especially not being compatible in the bedroom.


No. I've already gone over this in my head. If she could find sexual happiness with another that she could not find with me, I would be angry if I had not been warned about the problem, then want to know what I needed to do to fix it. 

Assuming, of course, that she wanted to stay and was willing to remain faithful while we worked out the issues. I think some affairs are the equivalent of the suicide cry for help. I can tell you that my wife has worked harder on our sex life in the ten years after the affair than she ever did in the 20 years before.


----------



## MEM2020

We had put up her cousin/plus cousins child for 4 months rent free. Saved her cuz $2400 doing so. Just in rent. Plus a few hundred more in food/telephone.

Plus I had gently pointed out her cuz was a total user. 

That cousin - took over the rental house from us when we moved for a project and proceeded to con an 83 year old neighbor (a friend of M2's) out of $1,000. 

So - I told M2 at the time - babe - we've done enough for her. If she was a decent person she would be saying thanks instead of trying to squeeze another thousand bucks from us. 

So M2 did this thing - and her cuz proceeded to behave very badly - conning neighbor - refusing to ship to us the lawn mower we had lent her when we moved. 

And she thought - wow - I got totally conned - and M1 warned me of this ahead of time - no way am I telling him I did this foolish thing for my cuz who isn't even grateful for it. 







jld said:


> MEM, why did she feel she could not tell you back then?


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> No. I've already gone over this in my head. If she could find sexual happiness with another that she could not find with me, I would be angry if I had not been warned about the problem, then want to know what I needed to do to fix it.
> 
> Assuming, of course, that she wanted to stay and was willing to remain faithful while we worked out the issues. *I think some affairs are the equivalent of the suicide cry for help. * I can tell you that my wife has worked harder on our sex life in the ten years after the affair than she ever did in the 20 years before.


Totally agree with the bolded.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> We had put up her cousin/plus cousins child for 4 months rent free. Saved her cuz $2400 doing so. Just in rent. Plus a few hundred more in food/telephone.
> 
> Plus I had gently pointed out her cuz was a total user.
> 
> That cousin - took over the rental house from us when we moved for a project and proceeded to con an 83 year old neighbor (a friend of M2's) out of $1,000.
> 
> So - I told M2 at the time - babe - we've done enough for her. If she was a decent person she would be saying thanks instead of trying to squeeze another thousand bucks from us.
> 
> So M2 did this thing - and her cuz proceeded to behave very badly - conning neighbor - refusing to ship to us the lawn mower we had lent her when we moved.
> 
> And she thought - wow - I got totally conned - and M1 warned me of this ahead of time - no way am I telling him I did this foolish thing for my cuz who isn't even grateful for it.


Some people really do have bad characters, MEM. I am sorry you and M2 were unlucky enough to be related to one.


----------



## 5Creed

Thank you for answering. I completely agree that some are a cry for help. Some WS's just needed to give that cry for help to their spouse in the first place but weren't sure if they would listen, or already tried and didn't get the response they needed to help them. Staying together after an affair requires a lot of work and building some things from the ground up which your wife is doing with you now. I feel you two love each other and are committed to each other and I am always cheering on two people doing what they can to make their marriages work after an affair. Best of luck to you both!


----------



## aine

john117 said:


> I know his wife very well. Think Mrs. Copper Top without the teaching credentials . Ate herself to 300lb and untreated depression. His AP was in dire straits after being dumped by her cheating husband and 5 kids and little financial support. He helped his AP complete her nursing degree, and did an awesome job with her kids as well.
> 
> He offered his wife to go back to college, she was too busy. Awesome father to his two kids.
> 
> The guy is a saint as far as I know...


well in that case he should do the right thing, divorce her, it might be the very incentive she needs to pick herself up, lose weight and move on. I find it amazing the amount of political correctness that goes on on this forum, of course everything is relative but when does one stop with the justifications. I don't know anything about the OP, but the fact is everyone has character flaws some more than others and yes, some people are the scum of the earth for whatever reason, to a poor BS at the moment of disclosure, the WS is probably scum for causing so much pain, so you can dress it up whatever way you want, but in requesting leeway for others not to generalise, the OP should allow others their pain, their opinions too. I know many cheaters, in my own family, ( i love them dearly) but I think they are scum for what they do and are morally flawed.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> It may have just been the principle of the thing. She might have felt guilty about not telling him about $20, too.


Principles are useful in Thermodynamics... The rest of humanity should know that context is king. 

Speaking of which, my brother in law owes me $3200 from 1985... True story.


----------



## john117

MEM, 

That's why good ole' Loki here qualified his aphorism with "context is king". If it was not noticeable then or now, why did she mention it umpteen years later?

Maybe I'm too paranoid, but one really does not know how many such incidents may come up. So the real question is not how many decimal digits worth of a paycheck this is, but why it came up years later...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> MEM,
> 
> That's why good ole' Loki here qualified his aphorism with "context is king". If it was not noticeable then or now, why did she mention it umpteen years later?
> 
> Maybe I'm too paranoid, but one really does not know how many such incidents may come up. So the real question is not how many decimal digits worth of a paycheck this is, but why it came up years later...


She might feel closer to MEM now, and more willing to be vulnerable about her mistakes.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
That isn't how it is at all. I was glad to do what we did - for the little boy. He was only five - and we provided him with a nice, safe, clean place to stay. I made sure there was always plenty of food in the fridge and let her cuz decide what she could or couldn't afford to add to the pantry. 

We watched the little man for her while she waitressed at night. Very nice fellow. 

M2 saw that I was generous and kind to her kin, while also seeing things as they were. 

By her third night of her stay I had her cuz figured out - explained what was what to M2. 

So M2 gets quiet for a bit - asks me if that means I want her cuz to leave. 

I just said - no - they are family - just be aware that your cuz often leaves behind a trail of misery. Why she moves around so much. 






jld said:


> Some people really do have bad characters, MEM. I am sorry you and M2 were unlucky enough to be related to one.


----------



## john117

aine said:


> well in that case he should do the right thing, divorce her, it might be the very incentive she needs to pick herself up, lose weight and move on. I find it amazing the amount of political correctness that goes on on this forum, of course everything is relative but when does one stop with the justifications. I don't know anything about the OP, but the fact is everyone has character flaws some more than others and yes, some people are the scum of the earth for whatever reason, to a poor BS at the moment of disclosure, the WS is probably scum for causing so much pain, so you can dress it up whatever way you want, but in requesting leeway for others not to generalise, the OP should allow others their pain, their opinions too. I know many cheaters, in my own family, ( i love them dearly) but I think they are scum for what they do and are morally flawed.


If she's been told by multiple doctors that she already has 1 foot in the grave at age 50, and continues, chances are a divorce or the threat thereof is irrelevant. My friend saw his father smoke himself to death, his mother eat herself to death (college professor of nursing of all things), and so on. 

I firmly believe morality is artificial. My friend's immoral actions are beneficial to more people than if he did the moral thing... The needs of the many....


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> *That isn't how it is at all. * I was glad to do what we did - for the little boy. He was only five - and we provided him with a nice, safe, clean place to stay. I made sure there was always plenty of food in the fridge and let her cuz decide what she could or couldn't afford to add to the pantry.
> 
> We watched the little man for her while she waitressed at night. Very nice fellow.
> 
> M2 saw that I was generous and kind to her kin, while also seeing things as they were.
> 
> By her third night of her stay I had her cuz figured out - explained what was what to M2.
> 
> So M2 gets quiet for a bit - asks me if that means I want her cuz to leave.


How is that not how it was? You think her cousin has a good character?

I think it is great you tried to help her son, btw. Were you able to keep in touch with him after they left?


----------



## Kivlor

MEM11363 said:


> So let me get this straight - I should now not trust M2 because 25 years ago, under some family pressure she was dishonest with how she handled something financial? Despite being totally honest and disciplined with money the whole rest of the marriage.


MEM, I think the difference between the way you are viewing your situation, and the ways some of the other posters here would, is that you assumed that after she lied to you every day for 20+ years, that was the only dishonest thing she did and didn't get caught.

Which could be the case. But a lot of us wouldn't bet on it. 

Don't get me wrong, if you're happy and you trust her, that's great on you. Just pointing out the other side of the coin here.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> I firmly believe morality is artificial. My friend's immoral actions are beneficial to more people than if he did the moral thing... The needs of the many....


Or perhaps morality is in the eye of the beholder . . .


----------



## wild jade

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> Maybe use my mod powers change your screen name to Loki.
> 
> It wasn't a month of income or even a week. It was below the threshold of me noticing. You folks are a cold unforgiving lot.
> 
> If a single instance in 25 years isn't an outlier - what is?


But didn't you just answer your own question?

The money example is below your threshold of noticing. Not sure how an affair can be below the threshold of noticing. :scratchhead:

You're probably right that I'm cold and unforgiving. I don't think I could love someone who chased after someone else. Even if they stopped doing it, it would always be in the back of my head that they might do it again. 

Money, on the other hand, I barely care about. It is merely a means, not an end.


----------



## MEM2020

Every once in a while something would come up - about her cousins wing of the family. And M2 told me that whenever that happened she remembered the 'betrayal'. 

And felt bad. For doing it. For keeping it secret. 

And then eventually her guilt became greater than her fear of my reaction. She confessed - discovered that my reaction was:

So you've been 99.95. honest about money stuff - and you thought I'd be angry about the .05%?







jld said:


> She might feel closer to MEM now, and more willing to be vulnerable about her mistakes.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Every once in a while something would come up - about her cousins wing of the family. And M2 told me that whenever that happened she remembered the 'betrayal'.
> 
> And felt bad. For doing it. For keeping it secret.
> 
> *And then eventually her guilt became greater than her fear of my reaction. *She confessed - discovered that my reaction was:
> 
> So you've been 99.95. honest about money stuff - and you thought I'd be angry about the .05%?


I like the bolded. 

I think as we mature, what we think of ourselves, having a clear conscience, becomes a lot more important than what anyone else thinks of us.


----------



## MEM2020

Jade,
But M2 didn't chase after Dan. He worked for her - for 3 years. 

She didn't flirt with him. They just had this intense physical / sexual chemistry. 

We sold the business - 4 years ago. I called Dan last month. Haven't spoken to him in 4 years and I called his house. 

Hung up when I got voicemail. 

Nobody leaves a voicemail like this: 

Dan,
I never got a chance to thank you for showing so much restraint with M2. Maybe six months after we sold the business she told me - about falling in love with you - about if you had made a pass she would have said yes. About it being kind of obvious to you that was the case. So - thanks for not doing that. 

But that's what I was going to say if he answered the phone.



wild jade said:


> But didn't you just answer your own question?
> 
> The money example is below your threshold of noticing. Not sure how an affair can be below the threshold of noticing. :scratchhead:
> 
> You're probably right that I'm cold and unforgiving. I don't think I could love someone who chased after someone else. Even if they stopped doing it, it would always be in the back of my head that they might do it again.
> 
> Money, on the other hand, I barely care about. It is merely a means, not an end.


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> But didn't you just answer your own question?
> 
> The money example is below your threshold of noticing. Not sure how an affair can be below the threshold of noticing. :scratchhead:
> 
> You're probably right that I'm cold and unforgiving. I don't think I could love someone who chased after someone else. Even if they stopped doing it, it would always be in the back of my head that they might do it again.
> 
> Money, on the other hand, I barely care about. It is merely a means, not an end.


Jade, if you don't mind my asking, how long have you been married? Do you have any children?

Not that these things would necessarily affect how you would react in the event of cheating. But they might, you know?


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Jade,
> But M2 didn't chase after Dan. He worked for her - for 3 years.
> 
> She didn't flirt with him. They just had this intense physical / sexual chemistry.
> 
> We sold the business - 4 years ago. I called Dan last month. Haven't spoken to him in 4 years and I called his house.
> 
> Hung up when I got voicemail.
> 
> Nobody leaves a voicemail like this:
> 
> Dan,
> I never got a chance to thank you for showing so much restraint with M2. Maybe six months after we sold the business she told me - about falling in love with you - about if you had made a pass she would have said yes. About it being kind of obvious to you that was the case. So - thanks for not doing that.
> 
> But that's what I was going to say if he answered the phone.


Yeah, that would have been a pretty shocking voicemail.


----------



## MEM2020

Jade,
M2 is like you. If I cheated - lights out. 




jld said:


> Jade, if you don't mind my asking, how long have you been married? Do you have any children?
> 
> Not that these things would necessarily affect how you would react in the event of cheating. But they might, you know?


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> Jade,
> M2 is like you. If I cheated - lights out.


MEM, did you quote the wrong person?


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> Jade,
> M2 is like you. If I cheated - lights out.


Because your needs are met - ask my friend if he would make the same statement.

At the end of the day his needs, his wife's needs, his AP's needs, and the kids needs are met. No lights out for him.

Moral absolutism is great till reality comes calling.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Because your needs are met - ask my friend if he would make the same statement.
> 
> At the end of the day his needs, his wife's needs, his AP's needs, and the kids needs are met. No lights out for him.
> 
> Moral absolutism is great till reality comes calling.


I think what your friend did is more admirable than divorce, John. Not that I am generally in favor of polygamy.


----------



## EllisRedding

MEM11363 said:


> Jade,
> M2 is like you. If I cheated - lights out.



I know for myself, if my W cheated, the moment I found out I would have a divorce lawyer lined up. The marriage is dead, time to move on with my life.

I would be curious to hear how my W feels about it though out of curiosity (if I had to guess, I think she would be more forgiving than I am). Probably not really a question to ask her though out of the blue b/c I have no doubt her mind would go into overdrive about why I am even asking (which means I would probably need to hide all the knives and sleep with one eye open lol).


----------



## jld

EllisRedding said:


> I know for myself, if my W cheated, the moment I found out I would have a divorce lawyer lined up. The marriage is dead, time to move on with my life.
> 
> I would be curious to hear how my W feels about it though out of curiosity (if I had to guess, I think she would be more forgiving than I am). Probably not really a question to ask her though out of the blue b/c I have no doubt her mind would go into overdrive about why I am even asking (which means I would probably need to hide all the knives and sleep with one eye open lol).


That could be an interesting thread, Ellis, how each person thinks they would react to finding out about cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

John,

I don't blame your friend at all. 

And I would say M2 has done the best possible combination of stuff to minimize the odds of me cheating. 

And I'm kind of wired for monogamy so that helps. 




john117 said:


> Because your needs are met - ask my friend if he would make the same statement.
> 
> At the end of the day his needs, his wife's needs, his AP's needs, and the kids needs are met. No lights out for him.
> 
> Moral absolutism is great till reality comes calling.


----------



## MEM2020

No

My post was sort of related to your question. 




jld said:


> MEM, did you quote the wrong person?


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> No
> 
> My post was sort of related to your question.


How?

Just curious!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
She's in a long term marriage. Like we are.

So I wanted her to know that I 'get' how she feels - being that I'm married to someone sees it like she does.

Jade,
I don't equate the $500 hiccup with cheating. I raised it because I do not believe that outliers are good predictors of future behavior. 








jld said:


> How?
> 
> Just curious!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> She's in a long term marriage. Like we are.
> 
> So I wanted her to know that I 'get' how she feels - being that I'm married to someone sees it like she does.
> 
> Jade,
> I don't equate the $500 hiccup with cheating. I raised it because I do not believe that outliers are good predictors of future behavior.


Okay, did not know that. Thanks for explaining!


----------



## sapientia

LucasJackson;16234417[B said:


> ]Sure, we're all sinners.[/B] I exceed posted speed limits. I tear the label off mattresses. I've downloaded music without paying for it. Have I ever cheated? No. Would I? No. That's just about one of the worst things you can do in life in my opinion. It's worse than guys who mug old ladies in the park. Those people victimize people they don't know. Cheaters, however, plunge knives into the hearts of the person they've taken vows with to never do that very thing. Again, about as low of a thing as a person can do.


You don't sound as if you believe it. Prideful.

Are you any kind of professional? If so, I hope you never make a mistake that hurts another person. If you speed, I hope you never cause an accident that hurts another person. You already admit to theft. You are not perfect, not even close to it. Wisdom in life starts by walking a mile in another's shoes.

I do not agree that cheating is worse than someone mugging an old lady in a park. Hyperbole. Entering into an adult relationship with another person is done with a full understanding of risk, that you cannot ever fully control the actions of another person. Anyone who doesn't acknowledge that was probably too immature to enter that relationship in the first place. Trust, yes, but also verify from time to time you are both on the same page is mature and prudent.


----------



## sapientia

john117 said:


> Because your needs are met - ask my friend if he would make the same statement.
> 
> At the end of the day his needs, his wife's needs, his AP's needs, and the kids needs are met. No lights out for him.
> *
> Moral absolutism is great till reality comes calling.*


Exactly. Usually it indicates a lack of life experience.


----------



## Wazza

john117 said:


> I firmly believe morality is artificial. My friend's immoral actions are beneficial to more people than if he did the moral thing... The needs of the many....


If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything.

Your best friend has made a decision that will cause other people tremendous pain of it comes to light. Possibly ruin his wife forever.

I get why he is doing it, and I understand it is hard, but when things are hard is precisely when you need to be clear about what you believe, or you will rationalise yourself into bad decisions.


----------



## Wazza

sapientia said:


> Exactly. Usually it indicates a lack of life experience.


I think the opposite.

I guess it depends what you see by absolutism. So for example, I require fidelity and honesty. That is not negotiable.

I understand that people fail sometimes, and I have worked through and rebuilt my marriage after an affair. That doesn't change the principle of rejecting affairs, and if I did not believe it was an outlier, I would leave, because life experience confirms to me it's going to end in tears.


----------



## Kivlor

sapientia said:


> Exactly. Usually it indicates a lack of life experience.


I would posit that moral relativism is the true sign of a juvenile mind.

But that's just my 2 cents.


----------



## sapientia

_Moral Absolutism is the ethical belief that there are absolute standards against which moral questions can be judged, and that certain actions are right or wrong, regardless of the context of the act._

I don't believe this, particularly the latter. I've been all over the world and morality is definitely cultural. There are also times when murder, theft, and cheating are, if not "right", certainly understandable and forgivable.

Everything has a context. British-based legal systems allow for different classes of murder for exactly this reason. Murder isn't always simply murder.

There isn't too much distance between moral absolutism and zealotry, IMO. Most of those people have clay feet.


----------



## MEM2020

What I mean is - it was a positive experience for us as a couple. 

We lost touch with Tyler because his mother took him to Europe a year later. When Tyler was 15 she came back to the US, moved in with her parents for a while and then asked them to watch him for a bit while she wrapped up some stuff in Italy. Flew to Italy and never came back. 

So at the age of 45, she basically dumped her 16 year old son in her parents lap so she could move in with a new lover in Italy. 

She died last year at 57. And when her father died the year before - she didn't fly home for the funeral. 




jld said:


> How is that not how it was? You think her cousin has a good character?
> 
> I think it is great you tried to help her son, btw. Were you able to keep in touch with him after they left?


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything.
> 
> *Your best friend has made a decision that will cause other people tremendous pain of it comes to light. Possibly ruin his wife forever.*
> 
> I get why he is doing it, and I understand it is hard, but when things are hard is precisely when you need to be clear about what you believe, or you will rationalise yourself into bad decisions.


Could you elaborate on the bolded, Wazza?


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> What I mean is - it was a positive experience for us as a couple.
> 
> We lost touch with Tyler because his mother took him to Europe a year later. *When Tyler was 15 she came back to the US, moved in with her parents for a while and then asked them to watch him for a bit while she wrapped up some stuff in Italy. Flew to Italy and never came back. *
> 
> So at the age of 45, she basically dumped her 16 year old son in her parents lap so she could move in with a new lover in Italy.
> 
> She died last year at 57. And when her father died the year before - she didn't fly home for the funeral.


Oh my goodness. That poor boy.

Honestly, that sounds a little bit like what Barack Obama's mother did. I just do not know how a mother can abandon her child.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> Could you elaborate on the bolded, Wazza?


To be honest JLD, if you don't understand that after all the time you have spent on these forums, you are not going to.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> To be honest JLD, if you don't understand that after all the time you have spent on these forums, you are not going to.


I'm open to listening.

I think he made a practical, even compassionate, decision. If that is incorrect, please explain why.

Both people in the marriage need to be happy, imo. Neither should feel held hostage.


----------



## Wazza

sapientia said:


> _Moral Absolutism is the ethical belief that there are absolute standards against which moral questions can be judged, and that certain actions are right or wrong, regardless of the context of the act._
> 
> I don't believe this, particularly the latter. I've been all over the world and morality is definitely cultural. There are also times when murder, theft, and cheating are, if not "right", certainly understandable and forgivable.
> 
> Everything has a context. British-based legal systems allow for different classes of murder for exactly this reason. Murder isn't always simply murder.
> 
> There isn't too much distance between moral absolutism and zealotry, IMO. Most of those people have clay feet.


You really need to bring a nice bottle of wine for discussions like this!

So, for example, my earlier values of fidelity and honesty, I stand by them. I agree that context affects how you respond. So in societies where marriage is a financial and social institution and even arranged, you might be required to stay in the marriage, where in modern western countries you divorce. The underlying principle has not changed, but how you apply it has.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

Ceegee said:


> Even better is someone who knows that no one is immune and puts boundaries in place to protect their principles.


Ding ding ding!!


----------



## jld

John, does your friend's wife not know about his other family?

Wazza, is that the sticking point for you?


----------



## TheGoodGuy

MEM11363 said:


> What I mean is - it was a positive experience for us as a couple.
> 
> We lost touch with Tyler because his mother took him to Europe a year later. When Tyler was 15 she came back to the US, moved in with her parents for a while and then asked them to watch him for a bit while she wrapped up some stuff in Italy. Flew to Italy and never came back.
> 
> So at the age of 45, she basically dumped her 16 year old son in her parents lap so she could move in with a new lover in Italy.
> 
> She died last year at 57. And when her father died the year before - she didn't fly home for the funeral.


That's so sad MEM. Hopefully the kid has been able to recover from the abandonment.


----------



## wild jade

MEM11363 said:


> Jade,
> But M2 didn't chase after Dan. He worked for her - for 3 years.
> 
> She didn't flirt with him. They just had this intense physical / sexual chemistry.
> 
> We sold the business - 4 years ago. I called Dan last month. Haven't spoken to him in 4 years and I called his house.
> 
> Hung up when I got voicemail.
> 
> Nobody leaves a voicemail like this:
> 
> Dan,
> I never got a chance to thank you for showing so much restraint with M2. Maybe six months after we sold the business she told me - about falling in love with you - about if you had made a pass she would have said yes. About it being kind of obvious to you that was the case. So - thanks for not doing that.
> 
> But that's what I was going to say if he answered the phone.


Very borderline, IMHO. If that is truly outlier, and she's made clear that she really loves you, I can see why you would forgive her.

Honestly, though, I don't think I'm able to be so neutral. If I knew my hubby was in love with another woman, I would just tell him flat out that he should go for it, and I won't stand in his way. Indeed, I'll get out of it very quickly.


----------



## KillerClown

Wazza said:


> You really need to bring a nice bottle of wine for discussions like this!


I have a nice bottle of Moscato.

Going back to the scumbag reference. Cletus, you're not a scumbag.

But I tend to look at former cheaters like reformed drunks. You can't end it and suddenly become a non-cheater. You can't expect your spouse to pretend it didn't happen. Everybody expect you to fall off the wagon any minute and it's just one more day of sobriety. You can't blame your spouse from being suspicious and checking up on you. It's a lifelong commitment to stay clean. If your spouse is not interested in living with a sober drunk than she has every right to leave. But this is the consequence of your action.


----------



## Cletus

KillerClown said:


> I have a nice bottle of Moscato.
> 
> Going back to the scumbag reference. Cletus, you're not a scumbag.
> 
> But I tend to look at former cheaters like reformed drunks. You can't end it and suddenly become a non-cheater. You can't expect your spouse to pretend it didn't happen. Everybody expect you to fall off the wagon any minute and it's just one more day of sobriety. You can't blame your spouse from being suspicious and checking up on you. It's a lifelong commitment to stay clean. If your spouse is not interested in living with a sober drunk than she has every right to leave. But this is the consequence of your action.


This is a reasonable statement to make. I can hope for forgiveness but never expect forgetfulness. 

Let me just add that given the numbers on infidelity in this country, this should be the default position of all spouses at all times, with the exception of checking up routinely on a spouse who has given you no indication that there is a problem.


----------



## Cletus

So it's time to ask - why am I getting better treatment here than most other wayward scumbags? What does that say?

I have my theories, but I think I'll just leave it at posing the question for now.


----------



## wild jade

jld said:


> Jade, if you don't mind my asking, how long have you been married? Do you have any children?
> 
> Not that these things would necessarily affect how you would react in the event of cheating. But they might, you know?


Almost 2 decades, no kids.

I could see kids affecting my decision, especially if they were very young. But I'm pretty sure if I chose to stay, I'd just go into autopilot and not bother working to rebuild the relationship. 

I can't even imagine wanting to. What for? He wants someone else he should just go after her. That's what I would do if I had my heart set on someone else. (I mean leaving, not cheating, BTW.) 

I'm not too terribly worried about losing everything and starting over. Done it a couple of times already, and it would be easy enough to do it again.


----------



## sapientia

Wazza said:


> You really need to bring a nice bottle of wine for discussions like this!


Well, okay, but that may also be relative. What you consider a "nice" bottle of wine and what I do may or may not be the same.


----------



## KillerClown

Cletus said:


> This is a reasonable statement to make. I can hope for forgiveness but never expect forgetfulness.
> 
> Let me just add that given the numbers on infidelity in this country, this should be the default position of all spouses at all times, with the exception of checking up routinely on a spouse who has given you no indication that there is a problem.


I agree that being given the third degree every time you walk through the door may get old. But I suggest you put on your rainbow colored lenses and appreciate her for caring so much.

I think I have a spare pair in my car.


----------



## Cletus

sapientia said:


> Well, okay, but that may also be relative. What you consider a "nice" bottle of wine and what I do may or may not be the same.


Like saying Moscato is a nice bottle of wine


----------



## KillerClown

sapientia said:


> Well, okay, but that may also be relative. What you consider a "nice" bottle of wine and what I do may or may not be the same.


Ice wine. mmmmmmm.


----------



## farsidejunky

Cletus said:


> Like saying Moscato is a nice bottle of wine


You beat me to it.


----------



## KillerClown

Cletus said:


> Like saying Moscato is a nice bottle of wine


OK, I'm a cheap date.


----------



## Cletus

KillerClown said:


> Ice wine. mmmmmmm.


How can something called Ice Wine be such a powerful Frigidity antidote?


----------



## KillerClown

Cletus said:


> How can something called Ice Wine be such a powerful Frigidity antidote?


My neighbor once said it taste like a fairy P**sed your glass.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> So it's time to ask - why am I getting better treatment here than most other wayward scumbags? What does that say?
> 
> I have my theories, but I think I'll just leave it at posing the question for now.


Because you don't have such low self esteem that you are vulnerable to dysfunctional "advice" from the fundamentalist church of CWI?

Because you have several sympathetic, understanding people on this thread instead of the usual throng of "adultery reductionists"?

Because you have worked through this issue with your wife, and it happened ten years ago, and you two are basically good with how it has gone since?


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> Because you don't have such low self esteem that you are vulnerable to dysfunctional "advice" from the fundamentalist church of CWI?


No, I don't think that in itself would stop it from coming.



> Because you have several sympathetic, understanding people on this thread instead of the usual throng of "adultery reductionists"?


Then why? Where are they in other threads? Or instead, where are the self-proclaimed 2x4 warriors? 



> Because you have worked through this issue with your wife, and it happened ten years ago, and you two are basically good with how it has gone since?


Could be. Where are the accusations of my wife being weak in allowing us to reconcile?


----------



## Emmi

KillerClown said:


> I have a nice bottle of Moscato.
> 
> Going back to the scumbag reference. Cletus, you're not a scumbag.
> 
> But I tend to look at former cheaters like reformed drunks. You can't end it and suddenly become a non-cheater. You can't expect your spouse to pretend it didn't happen. Everybody expect you to fall off the wagon any minute and it's just one more day of sobriety. You can't blame your spouse from being suspicious and checking up on you. It's a lifelong commitment to stay clean. If your spouse is not interested in living with a sober drunk than she has every right to leave. But this is the consequence of your action.


I see what you mean here, but I don't necessarily agree. I don't think it's enough to just put in precautions and do checkups. If that was the case I would not choose to reconcile but rather move on. I do not accept spending my life with a cheater. There has to be real change, and a real process of discovery. It's not enough for my husband to take precautions, like keeping a professional distance to all females outside his family. It's not enough to have full transparency. The change has to happen within, otherwise I see no purpose in changing the circumstances, rules, boundaries or precautions. Unless there has been true growth and discovery all these can change and the person is still as vulnerable to temptation as before. It can still sneak up on them in a weak moment. 

I truly believe my husband is not the same as he was when he cheated. I believe he has strengthened his core values since then. And the precautions, and transparency are tools until the boundaries and personal qualities are strong enough that those tools will no longer be needed. I'm not willing to keep checking up on him for the rest of my life, I'm not willing to not have complete trust in him ten years from now.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> No, I don't think that in itself would stop it from coming.
> 
> Then why? Where are they in other threads? Or instead, where are the self-proclaimed 2x4 warriors?


Maybe because you have a moderator active on your thread, and sympathetic to your position? That scares them away?



> Could be. Where are the accusations of my wife being weak in allowing us to reconcile?


There have been a few, haven't there? But because you do not take any of that seriously, it just does not stick.

Or do you think you are not getting much harassment because you are a man?


----------



## NobodySpecial

KillerClown said:


> OK, I'm a cheap date.


You are allowed to like whatever you want. Call it BYOB.


----------



## MEM2020

Perhaps it is best to tear apart the components of extra-marital sexual activity. 

Let's begin with the dimensions and sub dimensions. 

Like everything, there's the mechanics and the spirit of it. 

Underneath the mechanics are the usual suspects:
- Health risk to your spouse (bio contamination risk from AP)
- Financial risk (fvcking a direct report risking job loss)
- Violence risk (fatal attraction scenario)
- Other

Spirit or emotions of it
- Openly doing it or hiding it
- Impact on your sex life with your spouse
- When caught - acknowledging or full throttle DARVO (deny, attack, reverse victim and offender)
- Social humiliation: Are your spouse's friends finding out (last to know scenario) 
- Motivation (to feel: loved, raw sex, ego boost, revenge)

At the one end - heavy use of porn/vibrator or both while totally shutting down your partner. 

At the other - a full blown affair - prosecuted (hidden from your spouse - but visible to others) and without barrier protection - with your wife's bosses daughter - resulting in you giving your spouse:
- A chronic STD 
- getting her fired for some nonsense reason - when her boss discovers what you've done with his daughter
- Oh and everyone in town knows and thinks your spouse is clueless for not knowing

Oh wait - lest I forget. When your spouse first suspects - you DARVO her so hard she goes into IC. And when she gets fired - has a full mental breakdown. 

You absolutists - need to make sense of the spectrum between those two scenarios. I personally think it's big. 





sapientia said:


> Exactly. Usually it indicates a lack of life experience.


----------



## LosingHim

Cletus said:


> Like saying Moscato is a nice bottle of wine


I prefer box wine. Just look how economical it is. When you break it down to the per glass cost, you can’t beat it! Kinda makes it hard to drink straight from the ‘bottle’ though…..although I HAVE accomplished it. Similar to a kegstand….

But I must say, if I want a REAL glass of wine, that I’ll truly enjoy, not just with the end game of getting a buzz and a hangover……I’ll choose Selbach Riesling every time. DE-LIC-IOUS!


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> Almost 2 decades, no kids.
> 
> I could see kids affecting my decision, especially if they were very young. But I'm pretty sure if I chose to stay, I'd just go into autopilot and not bother working to rebuild the relationship.
> 
> I can't even imagine wanting to. What for? *He wants someone else he should just go after her. *That's what I would do if I had my heart set on someone else. (I mean leaving, not cheating, BTW.)
> 
> I'm not too terribly worried about losing everything and starting over. Done it a couple of times already, and it would be easy enough to do it again.


I agree with the bolded. If my husband met someone he wanted to be with more than he wanted to be with me, I think it would be incredibly unloving and selfish to not let him go. And really shortsighted of me.


----------



## Cletus

LosingHim said:


> I prefer box wine. Just look how economical it is. When you break it down to the per glass cost, you can’t beat it! Kinda makes it hard to drink straight from the ‘bottle’ though…..although I HAVE accomplished it. Similar to a kegstand….
> 
> But I must say, if I want a REAL glass of wine, that I’ll truly enjoy, not just with the end game of getting a buzz and a hangover……I’ll choose Selbach Riesling every time. DE-LIC-IOUS!


I'm no wine snob, not by a mile. But I do happen to live in the heart of Oregon wine country (as in probably at least two dozen wineries in a 10 mile radius). It's not hard to find a wine for $10 that comes in a freakin' bottle!


----------



## sapientia

Cletus said:


> Like saying Moscato is a nice bottle of wine





KillerClown said:


> Ice wine. mmmmmmm.


Moscato is trendy. I had the pink recently in Italy but it's not my favourite. Canadian ice wine is okay. I give it away as gifts to foreign visitors, but I don't enjoy sweet wine. Some people love it. Chacun a son gout.

I prefer any of a number of good super tuscans, or a brunello. Chilean and S.African wines are great too. In summer a nice pinot noir, or a decent pinot gris is okay too. I've never liked chardonnay, no matter how pricey. It's wasted on me.

We should start a wine thread. We have a pretty decent cellar. A friend of ours is a national wine critic and we've travelled with him, which is great for ideas but I'm always interested to learn about other good wines.


----------



## Cletus

MEM11363 said:


> Perhaps it is best to tear apart the components of extra-marital sexual activity.


So, MEM, my turn to put you on the spot. Of course, failure to answer is always an option.

You know my back story as well as anyone else contributing here.

What would you have done? What do you think I should have done? It's OK to be judgmental in your answer, as I am specifically asking for it. We can all talk about the ideal world and the objectively correct decisions that everyone knows should have been made - you know, the way most of us never actually think about running our lives.


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> Maybe because you have a moderator active on your thread, and sympathetic to your position? That scares them away?


Hadn't thought of that. Could be. 



> There have been a few, haven't there? But because you do not take any of that seriously, it just does not stick.


Yes, but they've been mild and mostly phrased in the manner of "I could never...", which is fine. People get to make their own decisions about what is acceptable. There have been no blanket statements about "evey WS is this" and "every BS who reconciles is a fool". 



> Or do you think you are not getting much harassment because you are a man?


Now that REALLY had not entered my mind.


----------



## MEM2020

So here's the thing. Dan is/was hotter than I am. He just is. 

The female customers we worked with often gave him the vibe. 

But he isn't nearly as lovable as me. Not even close. 

She wasn't going to leave me for him. 

After the dust settled she said that by far the most attractive thing I did during that time period - was I showed absolutely no fear of him as a romantic rival. 

You can say - I'm wired in a flawed way and she's wired normal. But the truth is she has spent much of our marriage feeling jealous or threatened by my close connections to male friends - family members etc. 

I've never felt threatened. She simply doesn't accept how lovable she is no matter how much I love her. 




wild jade said:


> Very borderline, IMHO. If that is truly outlier, and she's made clear that she really loves you, I can see why you would forgive her.
> 
> Honestly, though, I don't think I'm able to be so neutral. If I knew my hubby was in love with another woman, I would just tell him flat out that he should go for it, and I won't stand in his way. Indeed, I'll get out of it very quickly.


----------



## john117

Wazza said:


> If you don't stand for something you'll fall for anything.
> 
> Your best friend has made a decision that will cause other people tremendous pain of it comes to light. Possibly ruin his wife forever.
> 
> I get why he is doing it, and I understand it is hard, but when things are hard is precisely when you need to be clear about what you believe, or you will rationalise yourself into bad decisions.


Actually my friend's affair is open. The kids have known it for well over a decade... Heck, it started when his kids and her kids were in the same activities after school 

Not bad for an Ohio State engineer!


----------



## Kivlor

@MEM11363

I'd like to add something to your dimensions: 

In the case of men; Cuckoldry, which specifically threatens your personal opportunity to pass on your genes. 
In the case of women; illegitimate contenders for resources with your offspring.

Which I think personally are what make cheating especially egregious. The risk of being kicked out of the gene pool dwarfs all other risks.


----------



## john117

Kivlor said:


> I would posit that moral relativism is the true sign of a juvenile mind.
> 
> But that's just my 2 cents.


Moral relativism is a sign that one understands the complexity of the real world and can decide for themselves... Few things in life are absolute.


----------



## farsidejunky

Cletus said:


> I'm no wine snob, not by a mile. But I do happen to live in the heart of Oregon wine country (as in probably at least two dozen wineries in a 10 mile radius). It's not hard to find a wine for $10 that comes in a freakin' bottle!


The Willamette Valley was making world-class Pinot several years ago when I was still spending money on it. I imagine it's only gotten better.


----------



## farsidejunky

sapientia said:


> Moscato is trendy. I had the pink recently in Italy but it's not my favourite. Canadian ice wine is okay. I give it away as gifts to foreign visitors, but I don't enjoy sweet wine. Some people love it. Chacun a son gout.
> 
> I prefer any of a number of good super tuscans, or a brunello. Chilean and S.African wines are great too. In summer a nice pinot noir, or a decent pinot gris is okay too. I've never liked chardonnay, no matter how pricey. It's wasted on me.
> 
> We should start a wine thread. We have a pretty decent cellar. A friend of ours is a national wine critic and we've travelled with him, which is great for ideas but I'm always interested to learn about other good wines.


Brunellos need time.

ETA: sort of like a good Petite Sirah.


----------



## GTdad

Cletus said:


> So it's time to ask - why am I getting better treatment here than most other wayward scumbags? What does that say?
> 
> I have my theories, but I think I'll just leave it at posing the question for now.


Because you're a likeable guy. Folks could shoot arrows at you, but their hearts really wouldn't be in it.

You're just a lousy villain.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> John, does your friend's wife not know about his other family?
> 
> Wazza, is that the sticking point for you?


They have known since the beginning. 

Not much different than my wife's grandfather who had two wives... In different cities. Legal at the time in Frigidistan.


----------



## sapientia

farsidejunky said:


> Brunellos need time.


We've got some from the early 90s in our cellar. :grin2:


----------



## Cletus

GTdad said:


> Because you're a likeable guy. Folks could shoot arrows at you, but their hearts really wouldn't be in it.
> 
> You're just a lousy villain.


Oh **** off.


----------



## farsidejunky

sapientia said:


> We've got some from the early 90s in our cellar. :grin2:


Nice!


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> Hadn't thought of that. Could be.
> 
> Yes, but they've been mild and mostly phrased in the manner of "I could never...", which is fine. People get to make their own decisions about what is acceptable. There have been no blanket statements about "evey WS is this" and "every BS who reconciles is a fool".


Again, that would not stick with you. But less intelligent people with low self esteem would be crushed by all that. And, saddest of all, these vulnerable people would internalize it and other CWI teachings.



> Now that REALLY had not entered my mind.


Seriously? It was the first thing I thought of.


----------



## GTdad

Cletus said:


> Oh **** off.


Nope. Not buying it.


----------



## jld

GTdad said:


> Because you're a likeable guy. Folks could shoot arrows at you, but their hearts really wouldn't be in it.
> 
> You're just a lousy villain.


That's a good point, too, GTdad.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> They have known since the beginning.
> 
> Not much different than my wife's grandfather who had two wives... In different cities. Legal at the time in Frigidistan.


Ok. I hope Wazza will respond. I would like to know what specifically is bothering him about your friend's arrangement.


----------



## Kivlor

john117 said:


> Moral relativism is a sign that one understands the complexity of the real world and can decide for themselves... Few things in life are absolute.


Either a thing is right or wrong or permissible. Circumstances can change the situation, and thus change the morality of the action. 

Murdering a person in cold blood doesn't become moral simply because I'm in Saudi Arabia, and I've left the US. Killing a person in cold blood isn't the same as killing a man who has invaded my home. 

What a culture tolerates, promotes, and bars is a separate issue.

Yes, moral absolutism is often incorrect, as it doesn't allow for the changing of circumstances. Which is why I subscribe to moral objectivity. But if I had to choose between moral absolutism and moral relativism, I'd take absolutism any day.

It's one thing to say "Morality of an act may change based on the circumstances regarding that act" and quite another to say "Morality of an act changes based on the time of day / personal opinion of people in your proximity"


----------



## Wazza

john117 said:


> They have known since the beginning.
> 
> Not much different than my wife's grandfather who had two wives... In different cities. Legal at the time in Frigidistan.


Wife knows and has agreed? 

If so that would change what I said earlier.


----------



## Cletus

GTdad said:


> Nope. Not buying it.


----------



## Cletus

GTdad said:


> Because you're a likeable guy. Folks could shoot arrows at you, but their hearts really wouldn't be in it.
> 
> You're just a lousy villain.


Does that make me less of a scumbag or just make it harder to say to my face?


----------



## Maricha75

Cletus said:


> So it's time to ask - why am I getting better treatment here than most other wayward scumbags? What does that say?
> 
> I have my theories, but I think I'll just leave it at posing the question for now.


I like the theories thrown out by others... oddly enough, even @jld 😊 
But, I also think it is because you are an established member of TAM, who is well known by a lot of the posters. I think that some had their minds made up about who you are... and had no idea about your infidelity. Honestly, I don't think I knew, either. Or, if I did, I forgot about it long ago. I think that some, having thought one thing about you, having said that they liked how you post and what you say, cannot figure out how to reconcile this new facet with the man they have known and respected.

I don't necessarily think it is because you are a man, though. I have seen others come at male posters who have confessed to infidelity. @blueinbr comes to mind on that one. But there are others, too.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## GTdad

Cletus said:


> Does that make me less of a scumbag or just make it harder to say to my face?


No no, you're still a scumbag, but there's no joy to be found in jumping your sh*t over it.

EDIT: okay, it got pretty quiet after that. Just in case there's any doubt:

1) I'm yanking your chain just a little.
2) I've already stated on this thread that I'm a scumbag, too. So it's kind of like a Brotherhood, but less lofty.


----------



## Kivlor

@Cletus my personal opinion is that there's no real reason for people to jump you over it. It's past, and you and your W sound to be in a real R. You sound remorseful enough. You don't sound like you'd do it again. So no need to give you grief. But I didn't read whatever thread you were called a scumbag in, so I missed out on that convo.

If you were advising that it was a good move, or that you felt no remorse... 

But then again, if wishes were horses beggars would ride.


----------



## MEM2020

I believe the overall result of your one night stand is that it improved your marriage. 

Your wife - stopped taking you totally for granted. 

Lets say that Saint Peter comes down from heaven and says to me.

Your daughter has to pick between to men. She's undecided and you can tip her one way or the other.
Prospect 1: Is gonna do what Cletus did
Prospect 2: Is gonna do a lot of selfish shlt in the day to day - but won't ever stray

I go with Prospect 1.



Cletus said:


> So, MEM, my turn to put you on the spot. Of course, failure to answer is always an option.
> 
> You know my back story as well as anyone else contributing here.
> 
> What would you have done? What do you think I should have done? It's OK to be judgmental in your answer, as I am specifically asking for it. We can all talk about the ideal world and the objectively correct decisions that everyone knows should have been made - you know, the way most of us never actually think about running our lives.


----------



## jld

Thing is, Cletus, you are basically still doing just missionary, no oral or other positions, right? So what exactly was the improvement in variety since she found out about your ONS?

It seems to me like the main change is that you have accepted her original limits.


----------



## Cletus

Maricha75 said:


> I think that some, having thought one thing about you, having said that they liked how you post and what you say, cannot figure out how to reconcile this new facet with the man they have known and respected.


I expect, no I KNOW, that this thread has probably cost me a lot of respect, at least for some. No doubt it also means that everything that I say from now on will be tainted with this as the first thing that comes to mind: "Oh, yeah, that guy. The cheater. Meh. What does he have to contribute?"

I don't have to like that, but I do have to accept it as part of my ownership.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> I expect, no I KNOW, that this thread has probably cost me a lot of respect, at least for some. No doubt it also means that everything that I say from now on will be tainted with this as the first thing that comes to mind: "Oh, yeah, that guy. The cheater. Meh. What does he have to contribute?"
> 
> I don't have to like that, but I do have to accept it as part of my ownership.


Do you really care, though? If people see you that way, does their opinion really matter to you? Why?


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> Thing is, Cletus, you are basically still doing just missionary, no oral or other positions, right? So what exactly was the improvement in variety since she found out about your ONS?
> 
> It seems to me like the main change is that you have accepted her original limits.


Respectfully, I'm going to avoid this topic. I've done what I can to move past it. The easiest way to keep from taking that first drink is to never open the bottle in the first place. Not to mention that I really don't lose much sleep over it any more. Acceptance, when it truly comes, leaves you at peace with your decisions. 

You are correct that I had to do most of the changing in this area. It is my contribution to continued marital happiness, just as hers was to move past my infidelity.


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> Do you really care, though? If people see you that way, does their opinion really matter to you? Why?


I am not so immune to the opinions of others, especially but not limited to people that I in turn respect, as to not desire the same. Who doesn't want to think that his opinion matters as much (but no more!) than the next guy?


----------



## MEM2020

I have a higher opinion of folks who stand up and own their shlt.






Cletus said:


> I expect, no I KNOW, that this thread has probably cost me a lot of respect, at least for some. No doubt it also means that everything that I say from now on will be tainted with this as the first thing that comes to mind: "Oh, yeah, that guy. The cheater. Meh. What does he have to contribute?"
> 
> I don't have to like that, but I do have to accept it as part of my ownership.


----------



## anchorwatch

MEM11363 said:


> I have a higher opinion of folks who stand up and own their shlt.


I agree.


----------



## Wolf1974

Cletus said:


> So it's time to ask - why am I getting better treatment here than most other wayward scumbags? What does that say?
> 
> I have my theories, but I think I'll just leave it at posing the question for now.


Haven't seen the history rewriting, the blame shifting, the disregard for personal accountability. Are those to come yet? If not my guess is you're not going to see much negative treatment.


----------



## LosingHim

I'm not getting beat up much anymore either. For that I'm thankful.

But I took my lumps here for months. But I NEEDED it. I'd imagine you are not getting beat up because people don't think you need it at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## john117

Kivlor, some cultures are ok with honor killings ... Even advanced cultures were ok with family killing to advance their position towards the throne. 

Human nature... Not much different issue than the thread topic.

A jury of our peers would find my friend or wife's granddad innocent of any moral wrongdoing. Yet if the same people were not in a zombie marriage the outcome would be drastically different. That's what moral relativism is all about.

Consider polygamy. Who is to tell us that it's not right if it involves consenting adults?


----------



## Wolf1974

MEM11363 said:


> I have a higher opinion of folks who stand up and own their shlt.


Me to . Everyone makes mistakes but few and far between stand up and say I screwed up. It's all on me. Much respect for those who do.

We could use some more that from here


----------



## larry.gray

john117 said:


> If she's been told by multiple doctors that she already has 1 foot in the grave at age 50, and continues, chances are a divorce or the threat thereof is irrelevant. My friend saw his father smoke himself to death, his mother eat herself to death (college professor of nursing of all things), and so on.


My regularly exercising, healthy eating, fit mother thought she'd outlive my fat, diabetic, sedentary dad. She didn't divorce, thinking she'd have many years a widow.

She's dead from cancer and my dad is still with us going on 3 years now.


----------



## Cletus

larry.gray said:


> My regularly exercising, healthy eating, fit mother thought she'd outlive my fat, diabetic, sedentary dad. She didn't divorce, thinking she'd have many years a widow.
> 
> She's dead from cancer and my dad is still with us going on 3 years now.


I still remember when Dr. Dean Edell was on syndicated talk radio. One day, he said something about how if the average person fully understood how little they were actually adding to their lifespan by eating healthy and exercising, they probably wouldn't bother. 

Given his unwavering insistence on data and science based medical positions, this came as a big surprise.


----------



## john117

Wolf1974 said:


> Me to . Everyone makes mistakes but few and far between stand up and say I screwed up. It's all on me. Much respect for those who do.
> 
> We could use some more that from here


We do. But does it matter? I screwed up by marrying without a solid psych background of wife's family. The rest is just window dressing.i owned up to my error by not walking out seven or eight years ago and leaving my girls with her...


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Wolf1974 said:


> Hmm.
> 
> I can't speak for all BS but I will gladly speak for myself. I was married to a scumbag cheater. And yes scumbag would be probably the least colorful word I would use to describe her. When I call her a scumbag or anything else it's within a context of her as my then wife and now X wife.
> 
> Does everyone view her as a scumbag? No not everyone. she has many roles and people view her only in whatever role they value her for.
> 
> My daughters obviously care about her as their mother and I suspect that after I tell them the truth one day they may be hurt, disappointmented, maybe even angry with her but I seriously doubt they would stop loving her and that's ok
> 
> Her colleagues value her as a worker. I do believe she is likely very good at her job. It's very much data entry and she can type, error free, at an insane speed.
> 
> She is a daughter and sister and while they have all had problems with one another over the years no doubt they have love for one another.
> 
> She has some friends and had them since high school. While she isn't really close to them they all do still communicate so they must have a reason. No doubt they care for each other.
> 
> None of these people view her as a scumbag but none of them were cheated on by here either. If they had been betrayed directly bet they would feel a lot different about it.
> 
> I loved and cared for her and she flat out did me wrong. Her value to me was as my wife and a mother, a friend, and a confident. She was my everything and betrayed all of it. So to me scumbag is what she is.


I'm just getting to this thread...I haven't yet read till the end.. but thought I would stop here.. 

We all make judgments on others/ their stories pretty much based on how we ourselves may handle a situation -if we are even that self aware about it... (some are so prideful they think they could never fall -which to me is not being self aware nor human for that matter)... 

If I was to compare your situation @Wolf1974 , where you were a giving attentive husband, you took a leap of faith with your wife even, with her daddy issues, you did all you could to provide her stability, love, a good life/ family in tow, she was your everything.... in your case.. YES --- I'd slap "female scumbag" on her ....

WHY WHY WHY did she do it - if you were meeting all of her emotional needs / even wants.. what was she after ? You do not need to answer this -just trying to say....these are always my personal questions when reading another's story... 

I am not a poster who sees everything in Black & White... there is far too much Gray in life...

I want to hear the roots of what caused the divide, the emotional desperation, if communication was pushed away, if walls were put up..all of it.. 

I have read some stories here where I've broke down in tears over the ongoing rejection from someone who claims to love us care about us...I felt the "thirsting in the desert" in their words -of the one tempted to cheat , even those who DID cheat.. I'd feel this anger rise in ME towards those they are married to...just imagining being in their shoes.. I remember one poster "Browncoat".. he spoke how every day is like a prison -with no escape...no hope, no passion, nothing to look forward to... I had NO SYMPATHY for his wife at all.. I mean NONE... only for him ..

And it's not always so easy to leave.. with kids.. mortgages, financial situations... The most sacrificial will put their children's "well being" before their own..Browncoat was one of those too. I could mention EI here.. no sympathy whatsoever for her husband.. only HER. How she managed to forgive him is more of a miracle to me.. Yet still.. they have a great story of overcoming to share.. I give them that..

Cletus does not want our sympathy ...he owns his mistakes... yet I FEEL for his situation.. I can so easily see how he fell, how this happened.. I agree with him.. it's human weakness.. not scumbagness.. 

It's not so easy for me to understand his wife, however.. not that she forgave him.. actually in my opinion.. she's be a horrible woman NOT TO ! I say this because she has Cheated him BADLY...does she realize this.. does she CARE???....he has suffered countless years he can NEVER get back...If I was him.. I'd be over the top resentful towards her (so God bless him if he's [email protected]#) .... he has lived his life sexually unfulfilled, his needs NOT BEING Met.. he has been more sacrificial than most would be - to remain married... 

Neither do I understand (and again.. I haven't read the whole thread yet).. why after this happened, she didn't find it URGENT to seek ways to "Rock his world"....doesn't it eat her up inside that some ex lover or whomever she was...did this for him.. when it's HER PLACE...

I do not at all feel Cletus should be defined on this moment of Weakness...but shouldn't she be aiming to alleviate it , some hysterical bonding after the fact... (Never heard of this term till I came across this forum).. did any of that happen for a time afterwards I wonder ?? 

I would think it would have been urgent to overcome her hang ups... seek to be more adventurous.. whatever it takes.. I would hope this was part of the reconciliation..


----------



## NoChoice

OP,
I have a query that has troubled me for a long time that perhaps you can shed some light on. If this is too personal please simply do not respond. When you were contemplating your indiscretion were there not a torrent of thoughts going through your mind? If so, how did you counter those thoughts and proceed?

I was faced, many years back, with an opportunity. I found myself in much the same circumstance with my wife as you regarding both the frequency and variety of our sexual encounters. There was very little of either. And I was enormously frustrated and deeply desirous of more however, when I found myself faced with the opportunity my mind, the thoughts, shut down my body...completely. Nothing was going to happen, period. I then realized that it was not possible for me to commit infidelity even if I truly desired to do so, or at least thought I did.

I could not overcome my own minds dominance over my body with thoughts of honor and sacrifice and selling out my values and so on. It was quite overwhelming. Did you experience anything similar? I am truly curious.

As to the labeling, I find that for someone to make an error in judgement, to acknowledge it, to be truly contrite and to make substantial strides to prevent it from recurring to be human. It may carry serious repercussions and may even destroy the marriage but it also can, rarely, cause growth and maturation as seems to be the case in your instance.


----------



## 2ntnuf

@NoChoice,

I have. There were only a couple of times I was around a woman who I was unable to understand how I was attracted to without even knowing her at all. It was subliminal. 

I was lucky enough not to get to know them. I was smart enough not to try. Pretty simple for me, I knew I wouldn't make it if I let myself get near them in weakness. 

It was a choice. I chose, even though I had my own reasons to cheat that were as good or better than many here, to not hurt myself. There was no real honest good that could come of it. 

Could it happen? Sure, but it is highly unlikely, unless I kinda sorta want it to and have not openly admitted that to myself or anyone else. 



The below is in general and not to NoChoice or Cletus, but for those interested in a different perspective. 

The biggest problem I see here is that there is little acceptance for ourselves and others. It's all opinions, for the most part. I don't have to like your's and you don't have to like mine. Variety is the spice of life, not just in sexual partners, but opinions, likes and dislikes, morals, ethics, and desires. 

All we have to do is accept that others are different from us and it is the greatest thing in the world to be unique, honest with yourself, true to your nature. If you are weak in areas, you will find others that are similar. If you are strong in areas, you will find others that are similar. 

I don't expect my mind to change about this kind of thing. I don't need for it to change. I don't care if it changes and there are those who are like me. I like this part of me. 

If you just accept that you are a cheater, you can find others who do the same and have a nice enjoyable life cheating on each other and understanding each other's reasons. 

The issues arise when you want to believe you are not a cheater and you marry someone who is faithful because you know they don't have it in them to hurt you in that way. This type of marriage is filled with unhappiness for the faithful because you will be able to manipulate them through their feelings. It's really a terrible life for the faithful.

Have the guts to admit that to yourself and your empathy will shine through.


----------



## Maricha75

LosingHim said:


> I'm not getting beat up much anymore either. For that I'm thankful.
> 
> But I took my lumps here for months. But I NEEDED it. *I'd imagine you are not getting beat up because people don't think you need it at this point.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'd agree, except for one thing... there is a newer poster who is 3 years out and she already stated that they had decided to work things out. She stated they are having trouble with reconnecting at times, so was asking for advice on that. She was open and honest about her EA. And some felt the need to rehash that history, and try to jump on her. So, I ask, why jump on *her*, when she and her husband are already a few years out? Why treat her as if it *just* happened? This, I think, is the double standard @jld was referring to when she suggested it might be because Cletus is a man. I just don't know, really. There is really no rhyme nor reason to any of that type of response.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020

SA,
I'm going to try to add some balance here. The template for the marriage gets set during courtship and then maybe reset before the first child and then after the first child and after the last child.

By the last child - you dealing with some pretty hardened concrete. It's not realistic to go along merrily for 10 years - have a couple kids and then start pushing hard for core changes.

I do think C2 has some entitlement issues. And some hard core - Catholic good girl issues. Kind of sad - but not surprising. 







SimplyAmorous said:


> I'm just getting to this thread...I haven't yet read till the end.. but thought I would stop here..
> 
> We all make judgments on others/ their stories pretty much based on how we ourselves may handle a situation -if we are even that self aware about it... (some are so prideful they think they could never fall -which to me is not being self aware nor human for that matter)...
> 
> If I was to compare your situation @Wolf1974 , where you were a giving attentive husband, you took a leap of faith with your wife even, with her daddy issues, you did all you could to provide her stability, love, a good life/ family in tow, she was your everything.... in your case.. YES --- I'd slap "female scumbag" on her ....
> 
> WHY WHY WHY did she do it - if you were meeting all of her emotional needs / even wants.. what was she after ? You do not need to answer this -just trying to say....these are always my personal questions when reading another's story...
> 
> I am not a poster who sees everything in Black & White... there is far too much Gray in life...
> 
> I want to hear the roots of what caused the divide, the emotional desperation, if communication was pushed away, if walls were put up..all of it..
> 
> I have read some stories here where I've broke down in tears over the ongoing rejection from someone who claims to love us care about us...I felt the "thirsting in the desert" in their words -of the one tempted to cheat , even those who DID cheat.. I'd feel this anger rise in ME towards those they are married to...just imagining being in their shoes.. I remember one poster "Browncoat".. he spoke how every day is like a prison -with no escape...no hope, no passion, nothing to look forward to... I had NO SYMPATHY for his wife at all.. I mean NONE... only for him ..
> 
> And it's not always so easy to leave.. with kids.. mortgages, financial situations... The most sacrificial will put their children's "well being" before their own..Browncoat was one of those too. I could mention EI here.. no sympathy whatsoever for her husband.. only HER. How she managed to forgive him is more of a miracle to me.. Yet still.. they have a great story of overcoming to share.. I give them that..
> 
> Cletus does not want our sympathy ...he owns his mistakes... yet I FEEL for his situation.. I can so easily see how he fell, how this happened.. I agree with him.. it's human weakness.. not scumbagness..
> 
> It's not so easy for me to understand his wife, however.. not that she forgave him.. actually in my opinion.. she's be a horrible woman NOT TO ! I say this because she has Cheated him BADLY...does she realize this.. does she CARE???....he has suffered countless years he can NEVER get back...If I was him.. I'd be over the top resentful towards her (so God bless him if he's [email protected]#) .... he has lived his life sexually unfulfilled, his needs NOT BEING Met.. he has been more sacrificial than most would be - to remain married...
> 
> Neither do I understand (and again.. I haven't read the whole thread yet).. why after this happened, she didn't find it URGENT to seek ways to "Rock his world"....doesn't it eat her up inside that some ex lover or whomever she was...did this for him.. when it's HER PLACE...
> 
> I do not at all feel Cletus should not be defined on this moment of Weakness...but shouldn't she be aiming to alleviate it , some hysterical bonding after the fact... (Never heard of this term till I came across this forum).. did any of that happen for a time afterwards I wonder ??
> 
> I would think it would have been urgent to overcome her hang ups... seek to be more adventurous.. whatever it takes.. I would hope this was part of the reconciliation..


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> I'm going to try to add some balance here. The template for the marriage gets set during courtship and then maybe reset before the first child and then after the first child and after the last child.
> 
> By the last child - you dealing with some pretty hardened concrete. It's not realistic to go along merrily for 10 years - have a couple kids and then start pushing hard for core changes.
> 
> I do think C2 has some entitlement issues. And some hard core - Catholic good girl issues. Kind of sad - but not surprising.


Is she Catholic, Cletus?

My thought was whether or not she had experienced CSA.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

EllisRedding said:


> This is a very interesting point. There is the saying "Once a cheater always a cheater". I don't know exactly how accurate that saying is. I would have a very difficult time dating someone who cheated on their SO, don't know if it would even be possible.


Here are my feelings.. some may ask here on TAM why so many jump to suggest divorce.. if one KNOWS they can not handle a situation (example: Passionless sexless marriage)....that it's dragging them down into the pits of despair, misery, longing & suffering... to the point they need depression meds...

*Please get a divorce *[email protected]# Don't allow any grass to grow under your feet either... As anything this miserable is going to cause us to be weak , vulnerable.. if a "perfect storm" hits.. Hold on for the ride.. never think you are stronger than putting yourself in the cage with a Lion...especially if one is high in physical touch.. it's not going to work!! 

My Father divorced my mother over sex... I remember the fights..Oh they had it out.. she didn't love him, didn't want him...they made a mistake marrying...Her best friend was right there waiting to step in... my parent's situation was a tangled web... My mother TOLD MY FATHER TO GO TO HER... she felt bad for my dad, to this day she will say he is / always was a GOOD MAN...(she knew he deserved more)

They were OPEN & HONEST anyway! ... so he hooked up with her best friend (the clincher here was -she was married to his best friend!!).. thankfully my father survived this ....her husband used to beat her.. he was abusive (I seen it)...

Anyway... these 2 were meant to be...Perfect match...these 2 cheaters (even though it was out in the open)...they've been faithful & devoted for the last 38 yrs... I can't even express how much in love they are.. it's a delight to see, 2 pees in a pod..Love of each others life.. and the sex was ALWAYS good... 

What I gleamed from all that was..if you're compatible.. if you're with someone who Treats you right..it makes all the difference in the world.. My father nor my step mother are the cheating type.. no eyes for anyone else EVER.. once they found themselves together... 

I was the casualty of that situation.. but I'll always be thankful my father found happiness during his lifetime.. 

I'd do the same if I was faced with an affection-less rejecting husband.. 

But yes...it's so much better to Divorce BEFORE this happens.. with our integrity intact ...so at least one doesn't have to carry the label.. My parents lasted 9 yrs.. that was far too long !


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## SimplyAmorous

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> I'm going to try to add some balance here. The template for the marriage gets set during courtship and then maybe reset before the first child and then after the first child and after the last child.
> 
> By the last child - you dealing with some pretty hardened concrete. It's not realistic to go along merrily for 10 years - have a couple kids and then start pushing hard for core changes.
> 
> I do think C2 has some entitlement issues. And some hard core - Catholic good girl issues. Kind of sad - but not surprising.


How does "entitlement issues" enter in? I guess I am speaking from my own situation.. as 19 yrs in.. we had some glorious changes...of course this was a "hormonal experience" for ME.. 

The SHOCK of infidelity -which could have destroyed them... I would think THIS alone could be a game changer in a # of ways.. People are always saying how our experiences CHANGE US... we all change.. I read this consistently on TAM (and often shake my head thinking.. "I don't think I have changed all that much.. there must be something wrong with me!).. 

So I did a thread on this ... the answers seemed to be - it's often these "Devastating" experiences - that often CHANGE us.. we set ourselves on a new course.. some may end up depressed.. but others may challenge themselves in other ways.. 

I was looking at it through "these eyes" in my post... since they reconciled..why would he set himself up to go back to this for the rest of his life?? 

Oh ...I know the answer..as men age.. they are loosing their antsy sex drives, testosterone waning .. (I hate that by the way)....with this it's a little easier to accept ...


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> How does "entitlement issues" enter in? I guess I am speaking from my own situation.. as 19 yrs in.. we had some glorious changes...of course this was a "hormonal experience" for ME..
> 
> The SHOCK of infidelity -which could have destroyed them... I would think THIS alone could be a game changer in a # of ways.. People are always saying how our experiences CHANGE US... we all change.. I read this consistently on TAM (and often shake my head thinking.. "I don't think I have changed all that much.. there must be something wrong with me!)..
> 
> So I did a thread on this ... the answers seemed to be - it's often these "Devastating" experiences - that often CHANGE us.. we set ourselves on a new course.. some may end up depressed.. but others may challenge themselves in other ways..
> 
> I was looking at it through "these eyes" in my post... since they reconciled..*why would he set himself up to go back to this for the rest of his life?? *
> 
> Oh ...I know the answer..as men age.. they are loosing their antsy sex drives.. (I hate that by the way).. so yeah ..its gotten easier for him..


I think it is because the other aspects of their marriage make it worth it.


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## LosingHim

Maricha75 said:


> I'd agree, except for one thing... there is a newer poster who is 3 years out and she already stated that they had decided to work things out. She stated they are having trouble with reconnecting at times, so was asking for advice on that. She was open and honest about her EA. And some felt the need to rehash that history, and try to jump on her. So, I ask, why jump on *her*, when she and her husband are already a few years out? Why treat her as if it *just* happened? This, I think, is the double standard @jld was referring to when she suggested it might be because Cletus is a man. I just don't know, really. There is really no rhyme nor reason to any of that type of response.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I remember that too. I called it out early on that people were jumping on her as well. 

I will not go so far as to say that it's because she is a woman and Cletus is a man, though I have noticed that the male persuasion seems to outweigh the female and maybe that's why.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## notmyrealname4

You're pathetic. Why don't you man up and divorce your wife now; it's not like she's ever going to trust you again. Loser.

Hope you're satisfied that your kids probably lost their ability to have normal marriages because of this; what kind of an example did you think you were setting?

Ask your wife to come here and post on TAM. Because, I, for one, would like to tell her how to VAR your car and get into your phone to check stuff (but you probably sleep with it under your pillow, so she can't see what you've been up to).

It's people like you that make me want to give up on life. You're destroying the institution of marriage and helping to ruin our country. But that doesn't matter to you, does it. Just your own selfish, sick, sexual depravity. 












There, I got it out of the way for you.




Cletus said:


> So it's time to ask - why am I getting better treatment here than most other wayward scumbags? What does that say?
> 
> I have my theories, but I think I'll just leave it at posing the question for now.


----------



## Cletus

notmyrealname4 said:


> You're pathetic. Why don't you man up and divorce your wife now; it's not like she's ever going to trust you again. Loser.


Dayum. Well played.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Cletus said:


> Dayum. Well played.


Thanks, a little comic relief always helps on TAM, usually.


I didn't manage to incorporate Godwin's Law, but you could play around in your head and come up with some stuff of your own . . . for a giggle.


All the best to you and Mrs. Cletus:butterfly:


----------



## SimplyAmorous

*Deidre* said:


> Well, respect for those who do it for the right reasons. I imagine some people stay together in marriages for all sorts of reasons, that have little to do with love and respect for each other. *I wouldn't want to stay with someone who cheats, because there's plenty of people in the world who won't.* It's not like the common cold, and eventually ...sooner or later everyone will 'catch it.' lol Faithfulness is a choice. And breaking it is also a choice.


I think what bothers me so much when people get on this cheating bandwagon is.. the vast majority seems to not care or consider the pain & suffering that some of these cheaters had to live through...before they succumbed to something they would have never believed they could do to someone they loved....

Why is this such a non-issue with so many... why is this not factored in ?? Personally I think this right here is one of the largest problems in marriage.. so many can not (in fact down right REFUSE ) to see their own hand in hurting their spouse, causing them much pain & suffering..

I could take your words right here.. replace them with this...

"*I wouldn't want to stay with someone who dismisses my emotional needs because they aren't his or hers...because there's plenty of people in the world who are giving & would make better partners*"...

I actually see a Sexless marriage on par with cheating.. they are both a Betrayal of the vows.. to love & cherish.. to have & to hold...

I am one who feels there are plenty of situations where those who fall into infidelity would have never came close to it -had they had more loving, caring, receptive, understanding giving spouses..

And don't read this wrong if you were one of those Loving spouses (like Wolf and some others.. BetrayedDad.. I don't know your story) who gave your all, you heart & soul... your life, your passion, meeting her (or his) emotional needs... True scumbags to me , are those who are married to giving loving spouses -yet throw it all away for a cheap hot thrill.. because they CAN, because they are narcissistic, because they are the epitome of selfishness... they have all they need at home waiting ...and yet go screw someone else.. 

I've mentioned this thread a # of times on TAM - when cheating comes up...as it's the Mother of them all...it blew my mind when I read it early on... this man's wife was cheating on him for 11 yrs.. he was a Workaholic..feeling all he had to do was bring home the bacon... Now he took an awful lot of slack & ridicule for forgiving her and continuing the marriage.. 

There is NO way in this world I could understand WHY or how someone could do this UNLESS he saw his own hand in hurting her , contributing to her pain & suffering.. I pmed his guy out of pure curiosity.. and Yes.. this was part of it.. 

This was the thread.. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/8698-how-we-overcame-adultery.html.. post 8 spoke of this...



bestblu1 said:


> (Without getting into a lot of detail right now at least, let me just say that even though I had been faithful to my wife our entire marriage, I wasn't a perfect husband by any stretch).
> 
> When she asked me that question, it was sort of like the reality of my short comings was made crystal clear to me. Mind you, I don't take blame for what she did and she doesn't blame me. *But I do now realize that there is a great deal more that I could have done to meet her emotional needs over the years...and I didn't do them*.
> 
> We drove and cried and drove and cried. We headed out into a desolate area near our home and just drove and cried some more. She was sobbing and telling me how sorry she was and bad she felt. She started trembling uncontrollably at one point where I seriously thought she was having an emotional breakdown. I told her I was going to take her to the hospital but she refused.
> 
> At some point during the drive, something changed inside me. Up to that point I felt "gutted". I felt like I wanted to murder her lover. I was so full of hatred for him, and hurt from she had done to me, despair, anguish....really bad pain like nothing I ever thought I could endure.
> 
> Suddenly, while she was sobbing and apologizing and begging me to forgive her, the feelings inside me changed from the anger and pain and I felt a very strong sense of compassion for her. I could tell from her emotional condition that she was truly sorry for what she had done. I could just tell. Don't expect me to be able to prove anything, please just accept the fact that I'm not a stupid person and sometimes you just know when someone is being real.


I find stories of that extreme - to find reconciliation , to forgive ...God almost has to be in it somehow.. to pull off.. I don't know... some super spiritual strength behind it.... but Amazing... I surely couldn't do it.. not with that length of time, hiding.. no way... but still I wanted to mention it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Wazza said:


> I think someone who has made the mistake and learned from it might be a better risk than someone who thinks they are immune.











...and offer this thread >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/21172-never-say-never.html ...It explains our hormones ...the FOG.. all of us should be aware -if our marriages are slowly coming unglued... "Roommate-ism" is setting in....


----------



## MEM2020

SA,
The entitlement theme is oft based on an overall negative view of sex which comes from religious teaching. The result is a gatekeeper mindset. 

Kind of a - you are lucky I'm letting you do this to me - AT ALL. So don't ask me to do anything outside my comfort zone.

Whatever level of change can be achieved in these situations - gets achieved early - before kids. 

And even then - thre needs to be some genuine discussion about priorities and so forth. This is actually remarkably easy to describe, and incredibly difficult to execute. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> How does "entitlement issues" enter in? I guess I am speaking from my own situation.. as 19 yrs in.. we had some glorious changes...of course this was a "hormonal experience" for ME..
> 
> The SHOCK of infidelity -which could have destroyed them... I would think THIS alone could be a game changer in a # of ways.. People are always saying how our experiences CHANGE US... we all change.. I read this consistently on TAM (and often shake my head thinking.. "I don't think I have changed all that much.. there must be something wrong with me!)..
> 
> So I did a thread on this ... the answers seemed to be - it's often these "Devastating" experiences - that often CHANGE us.. we set ourselves on a new course.. some may end up depressed.. but others may challenge themselves in other ways..
> 
> I was looking at it through "these eyes" in my post... since they reconciled..why would he set himself up to go back to this for the rest of his life??
> 
> Oh ...I know the answer..as men age.. they are loosing their antsy sex drives, testosterone waning .. (I hate that by the way)....with this it's a little easier to accept ...


----------



## jld

Totally agree with you, SA, that the BS needs to look at their hand in why their spouse cheated. But some really put up a wall against that. They simply cannot or will not do it. 

I have so much respect for BS who can, though. I think it is where their healing begins.


----------



## jld

Just thinking further about why Cletus has not been raked over the coals more . . . 

Lifeistooshort once said that "men's sex lives are in a class by themselves." She is such a smart woman, often putting her finger right on the heart of an issue. Maybe people are hesitant to be hard on a peer when they themselves would be loathe to accept similar living conditions.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> The entitlement theme is oft based on an overall negative view of sex which comes from religious teaching. The result is a gatekeeper mindset.
> 
> Kind of a - you are lucky I'm letting you do this to me - AT ALL. So don't ask me to do anything outside my comfort zone.
> 
> Whatever level of change can be achieved in these situations - gets achieved early - before kids.
> 
> And even then - thre needs to be some genuine discussion about priorities and so forth. This is actually remarkably easy to describe, and incredibly difficult to execute.


Just reflecting on this . . . I think the entitlement issue can go both ways. And it could be part of the DARVO theme you mentioned earlier. As in the person not getting the sex he or she feels entitled to denies, attacks, and reverses victim and offender status.

I guess it really depends on who you feel has more power, more true leadership ability, in the situation. 

For example, if Cletus's wife is a victim of CSA, or even just religious or other brainwashing from her youth, she may not be able to overcome that exploitation from her childhood. But because Cletus loves her, truly loves her just as she is, he accepts her limitations. 

Maybe he has even come to feel grateful for the fact she offers the sex she does. I think he said they have it frequently. It is just the variety that was an issue. And if his mindset is now one of gratitude for what he has, then maybe it is truly no longer a problem.


----------



## Emmi

SimplyAmorous said:


> ...and offer this thread >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/21172-never-say-never.html ...It explains our hormones ...the FOG.. all of us should be aware -if our marriages are slowly coming unglued... "Roommate-ism" is setting in....


I'm not answering to this post in particular, but to what I perceive to be the sum of your opinions on this thread. I don't think that neglect and infidelity are equal in pain nor level of betrayal.

A person can easily fall in to being neglectful, especially if this is not addressed or pointed out by their spouse. Infidelity on the other hand demands a much higher level of awareness, and clearer boundaries must be broken in order to go through with it.

I find your stand almost offensive to BSs, and it's not uncommon for waywards to exaggerate the marital problems that were present before they chose to cheat. 

I find your view very black and white, just different from most. Like how an affair is justified only if the person was neglected, but if someone cheats on a loving and caring spouse, they're the scum of the earth. This isn't nuanced at all.

I was neglected by my husband before he cheated on me. I loved and cared for him through it all, he got nothing from the OW that he couldn't get from me. I still don't consider him scum. Yes he was an a**hole in what he did and how he treated me, but that doesn't define him as a person. But what he did then doesn't define him as a person. He couldn't blame what he did on me or our marriage, but he had other deep rooted problems he was going through. Depression, loss of physical function, chronic pain, shattered dreams as his physical ability prevented him from keeping his dream job, and the list goes on, combined with antidepressants that made him numb to all emotions and indifferent to pretty much everything, including me and our marriage. Everything was out of his control and he focused his resentment on to me. He felt like I was the problem, and he wanted to change his life, but the only things within his power to change were the good stuff, our life situation and our marriage.

The rejection and neglect I felt prior to his infidelity was painful but bearable, I was able to find happiness and contentment within myself. Unfulfilled needs was a small price to pay for being with the love of my life, who at the time was and had always been faithful, trustworthy, honest and strong. 

When he told me what he had done and that he wanted a divorce I was completely devastated, I spent about three months in a weird state of crisis. My cognitive functions went, my self worth was shattered. I couldn't eat or sleep. I couldn't feel physical pain anymore. All my phobias vanished. It's the worst thing I've ever experienced, and to put that into perspective I was abused by an older child when I was 6 years old, and went on to being bullied for pretty much the rest of my childhood. I wasn't depressed as a child, my regular state of mind was just sad, alert and on edge. I didn't know how to truly be happy until I met my husband. Before that I perceived joy to be fleeting distractions, and as soon as the laughter silenced the pain returned. So I know pain. The pain of being betrayed by my husband was worse than that of my entire childhood, probably because I was so happy and the fall was so high. I don't consider his neglect of me and my needs to have been very strong, his medical condition was too much for him to handle, and I could excuse it. But the infidelity I consider inexcusable. I no longer accept having my emotional needs go unmet, but if he never cheated I'm sure I could have lived happily with him until the day I died even though he wouldn't always be able to meet my emotional or physical needs.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Emmi,

I am almost positive that Simply Amorous was not referring to someone in your situation. She is a very caring member of TAM.

You have had to deal with SO much that goes beyond what I've heard about here: child molestation, being sexually rejected while offering so much, a spouse who still cheats on you . . . you sound like the opposite of what SA was describing: which is a situation where a person is sexually starving in their marriage, and they succumb to temptation after years of deprivation.

I just wanted to reach out to you and try to reassure you that no one would hold you accountable for your husband's actions,

(Hugs)


----------



## Emmi

notmyrealname4 said:


> Emmi,
> 
> I am almost positive that Simply Amorous was not referring to someone in your situation. She is a very caring member of TAM.
> 
> You have had to deal with SO much that goes beyond what I've heard about here: child molestation, being sexually rejected while offering so much, a spouse who still cheats on you . . . you sound like the opposite of what SA was describing: which is a situation where a person is sexually starving in their marriage, and they succumb to temptation after years of deprivation.
> 
> I just wanted to reach out to you and try to reassure you that no one would hold you accountable for your husband's actions,
> 
> (Hugs)


Thank you, I might have been a bit overly sensitive here. But I just don't ever think there is any reason good enough to cause this much pain to someone. Sexual deprivation must be horrible, but it still doesn't excuse an affair.

I just have to correct you though, my husband does not still cheat on me. We are about a year into reconciliation and he is doing everything he possibly can to make up for hurting me. 

But thank you for reassuring me and reaching out.


----------



## wild jade

jld said:


> Just thinking further about why Cletus has not been raked over the coals more . . .
> 
> Lifeistooshort once said that "men's sex lives are in a class by themselves." She is such a smart woman, often putting her finger right on the heart of an issue. Maybe people are hesitant to be hard on a peer when they themselves would be loathe to accept similar living conditions.


My theory is that it's mostly because he started this thread calling himself a scumbag, explaining how much remorse he had, what a big mistake it was, how he would never do it again, and then dared everyone to take their best shot at him. But really, what else is there to say?

If he had come on here saying how justified he was in cheating, how it was all her fault, how much of a poor victim he was, I bet a whole bunch of people would be on here to call him a scumbag.

If his wife had come on here saying how betrayed she felt, then a bunch of people would be telling her she's weak for putting up with him, and that she deserves better. 

I agree, though, that there is a much higher social acceptance and tolerance of men cheating than women. It is practically expected for men in some circles. Women however are judged harshly for being too sexual.


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> *My theory is that it's mostly because he started this thread calling himself a scumbag, explaining how much remorse he had, what a big mistake it was, how he would never do it again, and then dared everyone to take their best shot at him. But really, what else is there to say?*
> 
> If he had come on here saying how justified he was in cheating, how it was all her fault, how much of a poor victim he was, I bet a whole bunch of people would be on here to call him a scumbag.
> 
> If his wife had come on here saying how betrayed she felt, then a bunch of people would be telling her she's weak for putting up with him, and that she deserves better.
> 
> I agree, though, that there is a much higher social acceptance and tolerance of men cheating than women. It is practically expected for men in some circles. Women however are judged harshly for being too sexual.


All excellent points, jade.


----------



## ButtPunch

Emmi said:


> I'm not answering to this post in particular, but to what I perceive to be the sum of your opinions on this thread. I don't think that neglect and infidelity are equal in pain nor level of betrayal.
> 
> A person can easily fall in to being neglectful, especially if this is not addressed or pointed out by their spouse. Infidelity on the other hand demands a much higher level of awareness, and clearer boundaries must be broken in order to go through with it.
> 
> I find your stand almost offensive to BSs, and it's not uncommon for waywards to exaggerate the marital problems that were present before they chose to cheat.
> 
> I find your view very black and white, just different from most. Like how an affair is justified only if the person was neglected, but if someone cheats on a loving and caring spouse, they're the scum of the earth. This isn't nuanced at all.
> 
> I was neglected by my husband before he cheated on me. I loved and cared for him through it all, he got nothing from the OW that he couldn't get from me. I still don't consider him scum. Yes he was an a**hole in what he did and how he treated me, but that doesn't define him as a person. But what he did then doesn't define him as a person. He couldn't blame what he did on me or our marriage, but he had other deep rooted problems he was going through. Depression, loss of physical function, chronic pain, shattered dreams as his physical ability prevented him from keeping his dream job, and the list goes on, combined with antidepressants that made him numb to all emotions and indifferent to pretty much everything, including me and our marriage. Everything was out of his control and he focused his resentment on to me. He felt like I was the problem, and he wanted to change his life, but the only things within his power to change were the good stuff, our life situation and our marriage.
> 
> The rejection and neglect I felt prior to his infidelity was painful but bearable, I was able to find happiness and contentment within myself. Unfulfilled needs was a small price to pay for being with the love of my life, who at the time was and had always been faithful, trustworthy, honest and strong.
> 
> When he told me what he had done and that he wanted a divorce I was completely devastated, I spent about three months in a weird state of crisis. My cognitive functions went, my self worth was shattered. I couldn't eat or sleep. I couldn't feel physical pain anymore. All my phobias vanished. It's the worst thing I've ever experienced, and to put that into perspective I was abused by an older child when I was 6 years old, and went on to being bullied for pretty much the rest of my childhood. I wasn't depressed as a child, my regular state of mind was just sad, alert and on edge. I didn't know how to truly be happy until I met my husband. Before that I perceived joy to be fleeting distractions, and as soon as the laughter silenced the pain returned. So I know pain. The pain of being betrayed by my husband was worse than that of my entire childhood, probably because I was so happy and the fall was so high. I don't consider his neglect of me and my needs to have been very strong, his medical condition was too much for him to handle, and I could excuse it. But the infidelity I consider inexcusable. I no longer accept having my emotional needs go unmet, but if he never cheated I'm sure I could have lived happily with him until the day I died even though he wouldn't always be able to meet my emotional or physical needs.


What a wonderful post that totally resonated with me.


----------



## EllisRedding

jld said:


> That could be an interesting thread, Ellis, how each person thinks they would react to finding out about cheating.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry, missed this. I had started an EA vs PA thread a few days ago which to some extent covers this. Actually, that thread is the reason why Cletus started this one. I do believe it has a lot to do with ones view of sex, marriage, and personality.


----------



## Openminded

The old stereotypes haven't yet died out. I grew up in a very conservative time and place. For my parents' generation, it was almost expected that men cheat. It was rarely a reason to divorce (probably because few women at that time could support themselves). But if a woman cheated? Immediate divorce. Very few exceptions. A man would have been considered a fool if he stayed with a cheating wife and he would have laughed at for the rest of his life by those who knew (and his wife would have been totally condemned by the community). Very black/white world. 

That's basically how life went n most cultures for many thousands of years when men had all the power. It's a much different world now from the world I grew up in but some of that thinking still exists.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

I'm beginning to think you've been reading subversive literature. 

Because you are in a thread where the OP's (wife) - is the betrayed spouse. And it seems you are suggesting - that the wife in that marriage - the betrayed wife - look at her role in the affair.

Is that right?

And fwiw - I think she did.



jld said:


> Totally agree with you, SA, that the BS needs to look at their hand in why their spouse cheated. But some really put up a wall against that. They simply cannot or will not do it.
> 
> I have so much respect for BS who can, though. I think it is where their healing begins.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Emmi said:


> I'm not answering to this post in particular, but to what I perceive to be the sum of your opinions on this thread. I don't think that neglect and infidelity are equal in pain nor level of betrayal.


  This is what I said in my opening post on this thread *>> * "We all make judgments on others/ their stories pretty much based on how we ourselves may handle a situation -if we are even that self aware about it"... 

I stand by that.. why me & you don't see it similar is because .. basically YOU are a stronger and better woman than I am..clearly more sacrificial [email protected]# I mean that sincerely .. after reading what he has put you through....

Basically I'd be a real bi*ch to live with if I was neglected.. that's just being honest..If I am at least one thing. I am very self aware of my demons. what I could live with.. and what I COULD NOT...

I also wouldn't stand for anything even resembling a sexless marriage.. I'd never have the patience for this... I'd look at my spouse as my moral enemy.. Resentment would eat me alive...I can not relate to anyone who could handle this (hence our difference here).... Emotional & physical intimacy to me is like the air I breathe.. it's written in the vows... 



> A person can easily fall in to being neglectful, especially if this is not addressed or pointed out by their spouse. Infidelity on the other hand demands a much higher level of awareness, and clearer boundaries must be broken in order to go through with it.


 My intention in my posts , whether understood or not.. is well noticed...the person clearly can see something is terribly wrong in the marriage.. and Yes.. it's vital to communicate these things & work them out.. in my estimation.. Passive spouses are only hurting themselves...It's better to confront issues and haggle them out, fight if you have to.. Imperative to try to understand the other and to be understood.. and meet somewhere in the middle.. 

My husband was passive when he wanted more sex, in our past..I really didn't get it -he never complained... we were always very close.. yet he wanted MORE.. I had my mind on trying to conceive (6 & half yrs of secondary infertility)... he did all he could to love me through that.. putting himself down.. He's a good man.. if the roles were reversed though. I would not have been passive here... I would have sat me down & expressed deeply what I needed.. where I was hurting...I regret with tears how I missed my husband those years...I've went out of my way to make up for this...it's one of the reasons I praise him so much... 

My husband knows how I feel on these matters..we speak at lenght on many topics I bring up..it's not a problem for him at all.. because LIKE ME.. we both feel strongly we need to be very very careful to satisfy each other's needs.. Granted.. if a couple is way off in compatibility.. this isn't going to be a walk in the park.. it's going to take WORK...



> I find your stand almost offensive to BSs, and it's not uncommon for waywards to exaggerate the marital problems that were present before they chose to cheat.


 oh I agree with you a 100% Human nature is very quick to downplay our own faults and magnify another's, especially when we've been hurt...

How often do we find posters here who show humility to their own shortcomings?? This always stands out to me personally.. I am more apt to trust the words of someone like this..

None of us are faultless..



> I find your view very black and white, just different from most. Like how an affair is justified only if the person was neglected, but if someone cheats on a loving and caring spouse, they're the scum of the earth. This isn't nuanced at all.


 I never said it was Justified.. you read this into my words.. how I feel is this.. I can understand HOW a Betrayed spouse can forgive -when they themselves have been hurtful, neglectful ,rejecting, un-affectionate ... Not at first.. we'd want to kill him or her.. but never is it OK to treat each other like this either.... if we have issues. work them out.. fight if you have to... but don't stay in this quagmire...

So Yes I can "empathize" with the pain & suffering of someone who fell..this is not to say I condone it .. I clearly feel it's best/ advisable to divorce someone who is a obstinate mule to our emotional needs ...so we can keep our integrity intact.. 

There should be Great shame with cheating.. if this ever goes away... what have we become as a people?? 



> I was neglected by my husband before he cheated on me. I loved and cared for him through it all, he got nothing from the OW that he couldn't get from me. I still don't consider him scum. Yes he was an a**hole in what he did and how he treated me, but that doesn't define him as a person. But what he did then doesn't define him as a person. He couldn't blame what he did on me or our marriage, but he had other deep rooted problems he was going through. Depression, loss of physical function, chronic pain, shattered dreams as his physical ability prevented him from keeping his dream job, and the list goes on, combined with antidepressants that made him numb to all emotions and indifferent to pretty much everything, including me and our marriage. Everything was out of his control and he focused his resentment on to me. He felt like I was the problem, and he wanted to change his life, but the only things within his power to change were the good stuff, our life situation and our marriage.


 so you were a very strong woman in this ..and didn't hold this against him.. you were empathetic to a cheater you loved.. not sure why you have such an issue with me.. Though I'd probably see him more as Scum.. since you were an anchor for him during that time, there for him in all he needed, loving on him...you wasn't neglecting him.. 

Anytime we're dealing with health & mental issues...this can drag anyone down.. sounds he had a breakdown of sorts...I give you a lot of credit for standing beside him, not falling into some form of depression yourself..... Again.. you are a strong woman.. 



> The rejection and neglect I felt prior to his infidelity was painful but bearable, I was able to find happiness and contentment within myself. Unfulfilled needs was a small price to pay for being with the love of my life, who at the time was and had always been faithful, trustworthy, honest and strong.
> 
> *When he told me what he had done and that he wanted a divorce** I was completely devastated, I spent about three months in a weird state of crisis. My cognitive functions went, my self worth was shattered. I couldn't eat or sleep. I couldn't feel physical pain anymore. All my phobias vanished. It's the worst thing I've ever experienced, and to put that into perspective I was abused by an older child when I was 6 years old, and went on to being bullied for pretty much the rest of my childhood. I wasn't depressed as a child, my regular state of mind was just sad, alert and on edge. I didn't know how to truly be happy until I met my husband. Before that I perceived joy to be fleeting distractions, and as soon as the laughter silenced the pain returned. So I know pain. The pain of being betrayed by my husband was worse than that of my entire childhood, probably because I was so happy and the fall was so high.* I don't consider his neglect of me and my needs to have been very strong, his medical condition was too much for him to handle, and I could excuse it. But the infidelity I consider inexcusable.


 I see what you are saying here... I have a question... you said "HE told me what he had done & wanted a Divorce".... what if he instead wanted you to forgive him... Just asking...I could be reading this wrong.. but it almost seems his wanting to leave, sever it all ,your life/ your history together was the most shattering....how would you have reacted then? 

I wouldn't have been able to get past this how this played out for you...I would have demanded divorce myself.. as you sound you gave your all.. he was an A**hole, a scumbag... but yet you don't want to call him that.. a little confused there.. 

It sounds your husband (or ex) is pretty messed up...



> I no longer accept having my emotional needs go unmet, but if he never cheated I'm sure I could have lived happily with him until the day I died even though he wouldn't always be able to meet my emotional or physical needs.


 I think it's good that you will no longer accept being treated like this.. with another man, if you meet another someday... but again... you are a better woman over me...


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> I'm beginning to think you've been reading subversive literature.
> 
> Because you are in a thread where the OP's (wife) - is the betrayed spouse. And it seems you are suggesting - that the wife in that marriage - the betrayed wife - look at her role in the affair.
> 
> Is that right?
> 
> And fwiw - I think she did.


This is not the first time I have suggested this to a woman, MEM. It does seem we have more male BSs on than female, though. And there are power imbalance issues that sometimes come in.

I have told men to leave their marriages, too. It may get overlooked, but it does happen. 

Because Cletus has not really given details, and not that he needs to, at all, it is hard to know how much his wife has looked at things, or changed. It seems like he has done most of the changing. Mostly accepting her limits.

And if they are both fine with that, it is all good.


----------



## Kivlor

wild jade said:


> My theory is that it's mostly because he started this thread calling himself a scumbag, explaining how much remorse he had, what a big mistake it was, how he would never do it again, and then dared everyone to take their best shot at him. But really, what else is there to say?
> 
> If he had come on here saying how justified he was in cheating, how it was all her fault, how much of a poor victim he was, I bet a whole bunch of people would be on here to call him a scumbag.
> 
> If his wife had come on here saying how betrayed she felt, then a bunch of people would be telling her she's weak for putting up with him, and that she deserves better.
> 
> I agree, though, that there is a much higher social acceptance and tolerance of men cheating than women. It is practically expected for men in some circles. Women however are judged harshly for being too sexual.


This was my take. @Cletus didn't start this thread and try to blameshift or justify what he did, he owned it. If he did otherwise many of us would be throwing stones, getting pitchforks, lighting torches.

I want to point out something again, RE the complaints of "higher social acceptance and tolerance of men cheating than women." And the notion that women are judged harshly for being to sexual. 

In a monogamous relationship, what happens if a man cheats? He may bring home another kid. This kid will compete for resources with the BW's children.

In a monogamous relationship, what happens if a woman cheats? She may remove her husband from the gene pool. 

One of these is drastically worse than the other. It's not just "society" it is biology. That biology informs our nature.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

notmyrealname4 said:


> Emmi,
> 
> I am almost positive that Simply Amorous was not referring to someone in your situation. She is a very caring member of TAM.
> 
> You have had to deal with SO much that goes beyond what I've heard about here: child molestation, being sexually rejected while offering so much, a spouse who still cheats on you . . . *you sound like the opposite of what SA was describing: which is a situation where a person is sexually starving in their marriage, and they succumb to temptation after years of deprivation.*
> 
> I just wanted to reach out to you and try to reassure you that no one would hold you accountable for your husband's actions,
> 
> (Hugs)


Yes.. you read me correct @notmyrealname4 .. thank you for understanding my intent.  and agreed.. she didn't do anything wrong at all !!...She was a "strong anchor", giving her all to a man who threw it all away... it's these type of cheaters, I too, see as SCUM.. the bottom of the barrel.. 

Although I've never had to deal with such pain & suffering on either end.. I have read many threads here.. this one was very difficult to read.. but worth a mention here...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/306482-whats-worst-thing-about-infidelity.html


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
A gentle suggestion then - Cletus posted a ways back - he doesn't want to address the topic of 'improvement'. So let's agree that he's mostly come to acceptance.





jld said:


> This is not the first time I have suggested this to a woman, MEM. It does seem we have more male BSs on than female, though. And there are power imbalance issues that sometimes come in.
> 
> I have told men to leave their marriages, too. It may get overlooked, but it does happen.
> 
> Because Cletus has not really given details, and not that he needs to, at all, it is hard to know how much his wife has looked at things, or changed. It seems like he has done most of the changing. Mostly accepting her limits.
> 
> And if they are both fine with that, it is all good.


----------



## MEM2020

Kivlor,

ROTFL

M2 just bought our son a "23 and me" kit for his birthday. 

Your points are entirely valid. 





Kivlor said:


> @MEM11363
> 
> I'd like to add something to your dimensions:
> 
> In the case of men; Cuckoldry, which specifically threatens your personal opportunity to pass on your genes.
> In the case of women; illegitimate contenders for resources with your offspring.
> 
> Which I think personally are what make cheating especially egregious. The risk of being kicked out of the gene pool dwarfs all other risks.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> A gentle suggestion then - Cletus posted a ways back - he doesn't want to address the topic of 'improvement'. So let's agree that he's mostly come to acceptance.


He certainly does not need to address anything he does not feel comfortable with. Totally agree with that. Participation on an open forum is free will, not coerced.

The acceptance part seems like a separate issue, which, out of respect for your and his position, I will not address. I think the subject of acceptance (not related to Cletus in any way, just a subject of general interest) could make for a good thread, though.


----------



## MEM2020

Just realized I left out the single biggest - spirit of the affair - risk factor.

Which is the risk of your WS falling in love - leading to either a refusal to end the affair or desire to end the marriage.





jld said:


> He certainly does not need to address anything he does not feel comfortable with. Totally agree with that. Participation on an open forum is free will, not coerced.
> 
> The acceptance part seems like a separate issue, which, out of respect for your and his position, I will not address. I think the subject of acceptance (not related to Cletus in any way, just a subject of general interest) could make for a good thread, though.


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> He certainly does not need to address anything he does not feel comfortable with. Totally agree with that. Participation on an open forum is free will, not coerced.
> 
> The acceptance part seems like a separate issue, which, out of respect for your and his position, I will not address. I think the subject of acceptance (not related to Cletus in any way, just a subject of general interest) could make for a good thread, though.


I'm not opposed to discussing it, I just figured it would lead us down a rabbit hole and get people sidetracked on a discussion about my sex life that would be distracting when I wasn't looking for input on how to improve my sex life.

There is a very limited path to my wife opening up our sex life. It operates on a small number of activities at glacial pace. No, she still doesn't like to be touched sexually. She will endure it for a very short time, but enduring isn't enjoying, so I don't bother. She will never give or receive oral sex. Her personal revulsion of the act is too strong. She will endure sex that isn't face-to-face a handful of times a year, but again, I don't bother for the same reasons as before. 

So from a purely checklist perspective, things have changed little. But there are some less obvious things. We waited until dusk one night last weekend when it was hot, jumped in the pool, and wound up giving pool sex a try. It didn't really work, but it does count as progress. 

Acceptance of our sex life also came with less interest in our sex life. Once you realize that things are not going to change too much, you stop trying to change things, and you lose some of your motivation to even engage in the activity. So now instead of laying in bed waiting for the smallest opportunity to telegraph my interest, I go to sleep. When I find her sexually appealing but I know it's unlikely, I find something else to do. When we are in bed together, I stopped thinking about all of the things I'm not allowed to do while focusing more on getting my personal enjoyment from what I actually have. I have become just the tiniest bit more selfish within the confines of missionary sex, which has turned out to be an improvement. Oh, and I've passed 50, which does wonders for this problem. 

I take what I can get when I can get it. I don't obsess over what I can't get, and first and foremost, I understand fully that this is who she is, not something she is doing _to_ me.


----------



## john117

And what will you do when the sex begins to dwindle towards the cliff?

We went from a time of decent frequency and 2+ hour meaningful encounters to infrequent and meaningless starfish city sex to stalemate in five years.


----------



## Cletus

john117 said:


> And what will you do when the sex begins to dwindle towards the cliff?
> 
> We went from a time of decent frequency and 2+ hour meaningful encounters to infrequent and meaningless starfish city sex to stalemate in five years.


I will finally get that Mac (yuck!) and start converting Android apps to Objective-C (yuck!). If that doesn't suck all of the remaining life out of me, I'll trade in my motorcycle for an even faster version and take up mid-life racing.


----------



## john117

Material Design and Android Studio has sucked more of my life away than my wife as of late


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> I'm not opposed to discussing it, I just figured it would lead us down a rabbit hole and get people sidetracked on a discussion about my sex life that would be distracting when I wasn't looking for input on how to improve my sex life.
> 
> There is a very limited path to my wife opening up our sex life. It operates on a small number of activities at glacial pace. No, she still doesn't like to be touched sexually. She will endure it for a very short time, but enduring isn't enjoying, so I don't bother. She will never give or receive oral sex. Her personal revulsion of the act is too strong. She will endure sex that isn't face-to-face a handful of times a year, but again, I don't bother for the same reasons as before.
> 
> So from a purely checklist perspective, things have changed little. But there are some less obvious things. We waited until dusk one night last weekend when it was hot, jumped in the pool, and wound up giving pool sex a try. It didn't really work, but it does count as progress.
> 
> Acceptance of our sex life also came with less interest in our sex life. Once you realize that things are not going to change too much, you stop trying to change things, and you lose some of your motivation to even engage in the activity. So now instead of laying in bed waiting for the smallest opportunity to telegraph my interest, I go to sleep. When I find her sexually appealing but I know it's unlikely, I find something else to do. When we are in bed together, I stopped thinking about all of the things I'm not allowed to do while focusing more on getting my personal enjoyment from what I actually have. I have become just the tiniest bit more selfish within the confines of missionary sex, which has turned out to be an improvement. Oh, and I've passed 50, which does wonders for this problem.
> 
> I take what I can get when I can get it. I don't obsess over what I can't get, and first and foremost, I understand fully that this is who she is, not something she is doing _to_ me.


Thanks for sharing that, Cletus.

Do you know if your wife experienced CSA? Did that, or these problems, come up in counseling?


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> Do you know if your wife experienced CSA?


She did not. 



> Did that, or these problems, come up in counseling?


We never went to counseling for sexual issues.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> She did not.


Hmm. So it really is just her nature.



> We never went to counseling for sexual issues.


It never came up? You never thought about bringing it up?


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> Hmm. So it really is just her nature.


Yes. Is that hard to believe? 



> It never came up? You never thought about bringing it up?


We have been to a half-dozen counseling sessions over our disagreement about my father's living arrangement. She ended that when it failed to be productive. That's our complete counseling history.

We talked a time or two about counseling for sex, and I remember one quote clearly - "Why would I want to do that? The counselor will just tell you to leave me".

We know how to communicate about this issue - we discussed it for decades. We just have an impasse, and not all disagreements have a resolution beyond "agree to disagree".


----------



## sapientia

farsidejunky said:


> The Willamette Valley was making world-class Pinot several years ago when I was still spending money on it. I imagine it's only gotten better.


No disrespect to Oregon, I love the wild coast, but if you like Pinots in addition to some other varietals, go a little further north to the BC Okanagan region. It's like little Tuscany, with tons of beautiful vineyards.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> Yes. Is that hard to believe?


Well, it does seem like a lot of guys over there in SIM are living with similar wives, so I guess not.



> We have been to a half-dozen counseling sessions over our disagreement about my father's living arrangement. She ended that when it failed to be productive. That's our complete counseling history.
> 
> We talked a time or two about counseling for sex, and I remember one quote clearly - "Why would I want to do that? The counselor will just tell you to leave me".
> 
> We know how to communicate about this issue - we discussed it for decades. We just have an impasse, and not all disagreements have a resolution beyond "agree to disagree".


I don't know that the counselor would say to leave her. If she came to trust the counselor, he or she might be able to persuade her to expand her comfort zone.

Cletus, are you afraid to push her a bit on the counseling? Why?


----------



## anonmd

> So from a purely checklist perspective, things have changed little. But there are some less obvious things. We waited until dusk one night last weekend when it was hot, jumped in the pool, and wound up giving pool sex a try. It didn't really work, but it does count as progress.


Non-water based lube, try it again


----------



## Cletus

anonmd said:


> Non-water based lube, try it again


Way ahead of you. 

I always figured sex in zero-g would be incredible. Turns out you really do need a little gravity to get good traction.


----------



## sapientia

farsidejunky said:


> ETA: sort of like a good Petite Sirah.


From which region? I've had lovely bottles visiting Australia and France. I generally avoid French wine, as it consistently gives me headaches. Not sure why but 'new world' wines are easier for me to drink. BC, Cali, Oz, Chile and Argentina. I take my chances with Tuscan wine--drink lots of water--as it's just too damn good not to have.

Did anyone start a Wine thread yet, or is there one already?


----------



## anonmd

Cletus said:


> Way ahead of you.
> 
> I always figured sex in zero-g would be incredible. Turns out you really do need a little gravity to get good traction.


Ah yes, the shallow end works better.


----------



## MEM2020

Cletus,
You hit THE key point on this - a few posts back - C2 isn't doing this TO you, she's doing it FOR herself. 

As to the dwindling frequency Loki references - that's totally normal over time. 

You can contour that some - being playfully agressive and persistent like Bad Santa. And done properly - C2 will find that amusing and not annoying. 





Cletus said:


> I will finally get that Mac (yuck!) and start converting Android apps to Objective-C (yuck!). If that doesn't suck all of the remaining life out of me, I'll trade in my motorcycle for an even faster version and take up mid-life racing.


----------



## john117

Playfully aggressive at age 55? I salute your optimism, MEM...

It may work once or twice but after you've been with someone not in it (call it Resistive Desire) for multiple decades it could well take 100 tries for 1 success. And at that point the Dignity and Self Respect Fairies come calling.

I had better than 1 in 100 rate with the village girls 40 years ago


----------



## wild jade

Kivlor said:


> This was my take. @Cletus didn't start this thread and try to blameshift or justify what he did, he owned it. If he did otherwise many of us would be throwing stones, getting pitchforks, lighting torches.
> 
> I want to point out something again, RE the complaints of "higher social acceptance and tolerance of men cheating than women." And the notion that women are judged harshly for being to sexual.
> 
> In a monogamous relationship, what happens if a man cheats? He may bring home another kid. This kid will compete for resources with the BW's children.
> 
> In a monogamous relationship, what happens if a woman cheats? She may remove her husband from the gene pool.
> 
> One of these is drastically worse than the other. It's not just "society" it is biology. That biology informs our nature.


Which one is drastically worse than the other? Why?

From the POV of evolution and gene pools, individuals are completely irrelevant. It matters not a whit if one person is removed or not.

But I don't even why he is necessarily removed. Maybe she has two kids. 

And if he cheats enough, maybe they have 20 kids.

See what I mean?


----------



## notmyrealname4

sapientia said:


> Did anyone start a Wine thread yet, or is there one already?


^^^ Tag. You're it.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Cletus said:


> I take what I can get when I can get it. I don't obsess over what I can't get, and first and foremost, I understand fully that this is who she is, not something she is doing _to_ me.



I'm projecting my own situation onto yours here, with the genders reversed. So, that's the purpose of the inquiry; I'm not trying to insult you.

Why do you feel confident that it's not something she is doing *to* you?

I don't think my husband has deliberately lost attraction for me. I asked him outtright (again) last night. He always says he has not. And there are mid-life issues for him health wise.

But I can't get rid of the feeling that he just doesn't want ME. Partly due to painful things that have happened between us in the past.

IOW, if he wanted me just enough, he'd be motivated to make the effort to fix things. He is just letting things slide 'cause I don't matter enough. And I wonder if some other woman could probably reignite him.


----------



## sapientia

notmyrealname4 said:


> ^^^ tag. You're it.


voila!


----------



## Cletus

notmyrealname4 said:


> Why do you feel confident that it's not something she is doing *to* you?


How do you ever know anything with certainty about another person?

I take my observations of her overall unease with anything sexual (it's a family joke that mom gets uncomfortable when the topic comes up). I take our history together. I take her statements that thinking about putting a penis in her mouth make her sick to her stomach. 

I apply Occam's razor by not assuming malicious intent when a simpler explanation that fits all of the facts will do.



> But I can't get rid of the feeling that he just doesn't want ME. Partly due to painful things that have happened between us in the past.


Near as I can tell, it isn't just me. There's no steaming hot hunk of man out there who could bend her over the kitchen table and get her to like it, near as I can tell. She enjoys sex. She enjoys sex with me. It's the definition of a satisfying sex life over which we disagree. 

I don't like cauliflower. No amount of whining, cajoling, or force-feeding me cauliflower is likely to change that.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Cletus said:


> I don't like cauliflower. No amount of whining, cajoling, or force-feeding me cauliflower is likely to change that.


MAN I hate cauliflower. Who the hell invented cauliflower? Who EATS that stuff? Even drowning in cheese sauce it is barely tolerable.

Now one thing I used to hate is Brussels sprouts. Oooo. With prosciutto in a Parmesan cream sauce. I'm hungry.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> How do you ever know anything with certainty about another person?
> 
> I take my observations of her overall unease with anything sexual (it's a family joke that mom gets uncomfortable when the topic comes up). I take our history together. I take her statements that thinking about putting a penis in her mouth make her sick to her stomach.
> 
> I apply Occam's razor by not assuming malicious intent when a simpler explanation that fits all of the facts will do.
> 
> 
> 
> Near as I can tell, it isn't just me. There's no steaming hot hunk of man out there who could bend her over the kitchen table and get her to like it, near as I can tell. She enjoys sex. She enjoys sex with me. It's the definition of a satisfying sex life over which we disagree.
> 
> I don't like cauliflower. No amount of whining, cajoling, or force-feeding me cauliflower is likely to change that.


Cletus, would you say you two are both kind of set in your ways? And that is part of your compatibility, that you both understand and accept that about each other?


----------



## Cletus

NobodySpecial said:


> MAN I hate cauliflower. Who the hell invented cauliflower? Who EATS that stuff? Even drowning in cheese sauce it is barely tolerable.
> 
> Now one thing I used to hate is Brussels sprouts. Oooo. With prosciutto in a Parmesan cream sauce. I'm hungry.


Brussels sprouts?????

Get thee away from me, Satan. They're the only food that literally activates my gag reflex.


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> Cletus, would you say you two are both kind of set in your ways? And that is part of your compatibility, that you both understand and accept that about each other?


No.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Cletus said:


> Brussels sprouts?????
> 
> Get thee away from me, Satan. They're the only food that literally activates my gag reflex.


Well yah. If you stick them in a pot and steam or boil them. Or heaven forbid, buy frozen ones. Yuck. But prosciutto. Cream. Butter. Parm. Even THAT would not help cauliflower.


----------



## jld

I love cauliflower. I like all vegetables, actually.


----------



## NobodySpecial

jld said:


> I love cauliflower. I like all vegetables, actually.


I actually like almost all. Just cannot get with the cauliflower. Maybe I will try making them into tots. DH made broccoli tots recently that were awesome.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Sorry for massive thread jack. I will shut up now.


----------



## Kivlor

wild jade said:


> Which one is drastically worse than the other? Why?
> 
> From the POV of evolution and gene pools, individuals are completely irrelevant. It matters not a whit if one person is removed or not.
> 
> But I don't even why he is necessarily removed. Maybe she has two kids.
> 
> And if he cheats enough, maybe they have 20 kids.
> 
> See what I mean?


You're being obtuse.


----------



## Cletus

NobodySpecial said:


> Sorry for massive thread jack. I will shut up now.


People sometimes don't like it when I compare sexual preferences to vegetable likes and dislikes, but I think the comparison is apt.

We don't pick the things we like in life, they pick us FTMP. Trying to change someone's likes is to try to rewire very deep parts of the brain that we never consciously programmed in the first place. Hell, they even discovered not too long ago a gene that, if you possess it, guarantees that broccoli tastes bitter.

Even this part of the discussion is way the hell off-topic by now, too.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> We don't pick the things we like in life, they pick us FTMP. Trying to change someone's likes is to try to rewire very deep parts of the brain that we never consciously programmed in the first place.


I agree with this. Much better to accept the package, or leave it, than to expect great success in trying to rewire it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Cletus said:


> People sometimes don't like it when I compare sexual preferences to vegetable likes and dislikes, but I think the comparison is apt.


It resonates with me.


----------



## Wazza

NobodySpecial said:


> Sorry for massive thread jack. I will shut up now.


Just as I was going to give you amazing recipes for both vegetables.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> Just as I was going to give you amazing recipes for both vegetables.


Start a thread. Sapi did.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Wazza said:


> Just as I was going to give you amazing recipes for both vegetables.


PM me, by all means! I would love to try again.


----------



## LosingHim

I love cauliflower - raw AND cooked. I also love Brussels sprouts in all forms. For the record, I love Lima beans too!

But I digress. 

I wouldn't leave my spouse over him not liking cauliflower, Brussels sprouts or Lima beans. However, sexual incompatibility is another story. I don't think I could share my entire lifetime with someone who didn't enjoy much of the same things that I do sexually. We both have certain things about sex that we like that the other doesn't. He likes to record video, I'm meh about it. I like a LOT of kissing, he's meh about it. But we work through it. I let him record, he kisses me as much as I want to kiss.

But, I'd say were 98% sexually compatible. We just adjust to that other 2% that were not completely on the same page about. But if we were less than 50% compatible, I don't think I'd bother. Sex is one of THE most pleasurable, connecting, intimate acts created for the human species. Pleasure, stress relief, bonding.....all of those things are VERY important in a good marriage IMO.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Emmi

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is what I said in my opening post on this thread *>> * "We all make judgments on others/ their stories pretty much based on how we ourselves may handle a situation -if we are even that self aware about it"...
> 
> I stand by that.. why me & you don't see it similar is because .. basically YOU are a stronger and better woman than I am..clearly more sacrificial [email protected]# I mean that sincerely .. after reading what he has put you through...


I totally agree, and my interpretation of your posts has definitely been coloured by my own situation. I don't believe that I'm better than you, I think we're just different. My tendency to self sacrifice has contributed to a lot of pain for myself. Bad friendships has gone on for far to log due to my ability to accept sh*tty situations. In marriage I think sacrifice can be helpful though, as long as it goes both ways.



> Basically I'd be a real bi*ch to live with if I was neglected.. that's just being honest..If I am at least one thing. I am very self aware of my demons. what I could live with.. and what I COULD NOT...
> 
> I also wouldn't stand for anything even resembling a sexless marriage.. I'd never have the patience for this... I'd look at my spouse as my moral enemy.. Resentment would eat me alive...I can not relate to anyone who could handle this (hence our difference here).... Emotional & physical intimacy to me is like the air I breathe.. it's written in the vows...


I guess I find it hard to believe that there are people out there so unwilling to meet their spouses needs, and it's only now from reading this that I start to understand it. With my husband it wasn't unwillingness to meet my needs, but inability. And I have always worked hard to improve the parts of me that has caused problems and could prevent me from meeting his needs. Like pain during sex and phobia of bodily fluids. Despite those issues we've always had a good sex life, and we have worked our way around it, I seem to be almost completely healed from them at this point. So I guess I've believed those who's been dissatisfied to have been exaggerating or that their spouses must have really been trying, it never occurred to me that someone would be able to see their spouse suffer without trying to find a way to solve the problem.



> My intention in my posts , whether understood or not.. is well noticed...the person clearly can see something is terribly wrong in the marriage.. and Yes.. it's vital to communicate these things & work them out.. in my estimation.. Passive spouses are only hurting themselves...It's better to confront issues and haggle them out, fight if you have to.. Imperative to try to understand the other and to be understood.. and meet somewhere in the middle..


I couldn't agree more! If I didn't tell my husband what I need from him I would be utterly miserable. We can't expect anyone to read our minds. Communication is the most important thing for a functioning relationship.



> My husband was passive when he wanted more sex, in our past..I really didn't get it -he never complained... we were always very close.. yet he wanted MORE.. I had my mind on trying to conceive (6 & half yrs of secondary infertility)... he did all he could to love me through that.. putting himself down.. He's a good man.. if the roles were reversed though. I would not have been passive here... I would have sat me down & expressed deeply what I needed.. where I was hurting...I regret with tears how I missed my husband those years...I've went out of my way to make up for this...it's one of the reasons I praise him so much...


My husband was the same during his bad time. I could see that he was unhappy, and did everything I could trying to meet his needs, but he wouldn't communicate with me. I asked him flat out, and his reply was always that I was the only thing good in his life, I had no way of knowing that he was complaining about me to his friend, nor that he was building resentment against me. If he wasn't so passive, and had dared to tell me how he really felt all could be prevented. I went through his communications with this girl, and it changed over night after he lost his job, before that he was telling her how amazing I was and what a strong relationship we have.

I am so sorry you had to go through that, dealing with a that long period of trying to conceive must have been consuming your mind completely and I can't even imagine how that must have felt.



> My husband knows how I feel on these matters..we speak at lenght on many topics I bring up..it's not a problem for him at all.. because LIKE ME.. we both feel strongly we need to be very very careful to satisfy each other's needs.. Granted.. if a couple is way off in compatibility.. this isn't going to be a walk in the park.. it's going to take WORK...


Sounds like the two of you have a lot of valuable experience, does he ever bring up topics like this too? That is one of the things I wish my husband would do more, he is not good at putting words to things and I sometimes feel like I'm training him. He never learned about emotions in his childhood, so I actually am helping him learn to identify and express different emotions.



> oh I agree with you a 100% Human nature is very quick to downplay our own faults and magnify another's, especially when we've been hurt...
> 
> How often do we find posters here who show humility to their own shortcomings?? This always stands out to me personally.. I am more apt to trust the words of someone like this..
> 
> None of us are faultless..


True, one of the reasons I struggle to trust my own sister is that she has an extreme need to always be right, and she is more likely to rewrite history than to admit she is wrong. 



> I never said it was Justified.. you read this into my words.. how I feel is this.. I can understand HOW a Betrayed spouse can forgive -when they themselves have been hurtful, neglectful ,rejecting, un-affectionate ... Not at first.. we'd want to kill him or her.. but never is it OK to treat each other like this either.... if we have issues. work them out.. fight if you have to... but don't stay in this quagmire...
> 
> So Yes I can "empathize" with the pain & suffering of someone who fell..this is not to say I condone it .. I clearly feel it's best/ advisable to divorce someone who is a obstinate mule to our emotional needs ...so we can keep our integrity intact..
> 
> There should be Great shame with cheating.. if this ever goes away... what have we become as a people??


I misunderstood you, I'm glad you don't think it's justified. Forgiveness is such a big part of my faith that I don't even separate between the circumstances, as to me the right thing is always to forgive. so I just didn't understand what you meant, thank you for clarifying



> so you were a very strong woman in this ..and didn't hold this against him.. you were empathetic to a cheater you loved.. not sure why you have such an issue with me.. Though I'd probably see him more as Scum.. since you were an anchor for him during that time, there for him in all he needed, loving on him...you wasn't neglecting him..


I don't have an issue with you at all, I think you seem lovely, and full of insight. I think it's because of what he was going through I was able to forgive him so easily, if this was just who he was i would never be able to get past it. At that time in his life, he did really bad stuff, but that doesn't make him a bad person. He had a "bad person period" but I know him so well, and the things he did then is not who he is, nor who he was before he went in to this crisis.



> Anytime we're dealing with health & mental issues...this can drag anyone down.. sounds he had a breakdown of sorts...I give you a lot of credit for standing beside him, not falling into some form of depression yourself..... Again.. you are a strong woman..


He did have a breakdown, he completely lost himself, he went against all his values and everything that he is. For the first 6 months he hid it so well, I knew he was a bit down, but had no idea that he'd been suisidal and put on antidepressants, he took 9 tablets a day at this point so I didn't notice the extra box in the kitchen. Not until three weeks later when he blurted it out during an argument. After he cheated everything was a lot more obvious, he didn't even look like himself anymore, the fake mask he'd been wearing for the last 6 months were completely gone, and it was like there was nothing left of the man I knew and loved.



> I see what you are saying here... I have a question... you said "HE told me what he had done & wanted a Divorce".... what if he instead wanted you to forgive him... Just asking...I could be reading this wrong.. but it almost seems his wanting to leave, sever it all ,your life/ your history together was the most shattering....how would you have reacted then?
> 
> I wouldn't have been able to get past this how this played out for you...I would have demanded divorce myself.. as you sound you gave your all.. he was an A**hole, a scumbag... but yet you don't want to call him that.. a little confused there..


That is a very difficult question to answer since he started with the divorce, so that was when the biggest shock came, then he only added to that when he told me about the cheating. By the time he cheated on me he had already exited our relationship completely, he just hadn't told me yet, he'd been away for a week and a half, and it took him a few days to drive home as well, he was gone two weeks in total, and two nights were spent with the OW. If he had cheated and intended to keep the marriage I think I might have demanded the divorce, because then the problem would have been who he was and not what he was going through. Although I really have no idea what I would have done, I was in shock, and I would have been even if he still wanted to stay. I don't think he would have cheated if he wanted to stay, he wanted to push me away. That's why he told me he cheated as well, because he thought that would make me accept a divorce. He had no desire for that OW, no feelings at all, had he not been so blind at the time he wouldn't even have found her attractive. I was worried while he was there because he acted strange over the phone, but when I looked her up on Facebook all my worries just vanished. Not because she was ugly but because she was the kind of girl my husband finds ridiculous, too much makeup, wannabe sexy selfies, chavvy is actually the perfect word to describe her. So it's not like he wanted to leave me for her.

When he said he wanted a divorce I didn't believe him, and I was right not to. I managed to buy some time, and told him that this was too sudden, he'd been thinking about this for who knew how long and I needed time for it to sink in. I decided I wouldn't give up until I knew I had done all I could, and I was determined to get him back to his regular self again, if I couldn't get him back to me, I would at least get him back to himself again. He agreed to do MC, and there was a three weeks waiting list, by the time we got there he had pretty much changed his mind. There were a few set backs, but the progress was enormous. 

After about two/three months he was fully committed to me and our marriage again. The thing is during the darkest time he was not making any sense, he was trying so hard to push me away, and said the most cruel things. But he considered me his only family, I was his favourite person in the world, his best friend. So it was so easy to see through it, a struggle to get through, but I knew that I wasn't dealing with the real him. Another thing that made me realise I had to fight for us was that none of the negative things he said were true, all his reasons for wanting out he had made up in his head. 





> It sounds your husband (or ex) is pretty messed up...
> 
> I think it's good that you will no longer accept being treated like this.. with another man, if you meet another someday... but again... you are a better woman over me...


He does have a lot of issues that he is working through, we are still young, and I think his time with me has been the only time in his life that he's been safe enough to actually take those issues out and start working on them. Even though I sometimes have doubts that I will be able to live with this I am very sure we will be together for the rest of our lives. 

My husband is a good man, the best I have ever encountered. He screwed up massively but that doesn't define him.

He has stood by me through multiple depressions, helped me recover from my childhood traumas, built me up emotionally on so many levels. Given me the confidence to stand up for my self to both friends and family. Thought me to accept myself the way I am, shown me that I am worth loving. He has been my rock for five years straight, and when he eventually cracked he cracked hard, so I had to be his rock. By the time he had his crisis I had worked through pretty much all my problems, so I was in a really good place, and I have him to thank for that. Now he is doing all he can to help me recover, at the same time as working on his internal issues that allowed him to betray me, at the same time as building up his physical health. That is a lot, and I find it admirable, he is far from scum, and he deserves a second chance, not because everyone does but because he has actually earned it. What we have is so unique that I don't think we'd ever find it with anyone else. we have common goals and support each other's dreams, we build each other up and fulfill each other. His neglect of me was only during his time of crisis, and even though I wasn't neglecting him he felt neglected. 

I can't bear to have him put down and described as scum. It's not just "bad guys" or good guys in bad relationships who cheat, my husband is a good guy in a great relationship who also cheated. I always used to wonder how he turned out so great when he grew up the way he did, with the influence of his family. I still consider him to be great, but I can finally see how his childhood and his family has affected him.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Dear @Emmi... I feel we are missing each other in understanding.. as I thought you & he were no longer together, that you wouldn't / couldn't be with him.. but here I see how you are still with your husband.. actually your unfolding story of being there for each other is truly heartwarming.. how you've both lifted each other UP.. he was like the "Wing beneath your wings" when you met... your valuing yourself has grew due to his caring for you.. and because you KNOW this is the REAL PERSON inside.. you could never give up on him... so then you were there for him during his personal crisis that shook you both to the core. .. well that's beautiful.. and that's ultimately what Real love does.. people sometimes DO screw up badly.. thank God he didn't commit suicide ! 

If I was in your shoes .. I'd be defending him too- saying "Hey, wait a minute.. this man has went above & beyond, he is not defined by his darkest moment"!!... 

Now that you've shared more about him, his history, your story... I completely see WHY you've stood by him.. 

It sounds like what he went through was not something to take "personal" at all.. but it was inner demons of his own, he may have been ashamed in ways he could never open up about to you..I don't know. 

We have a good friend right now, husband grew up with this man, comes from a tight knit KIND family.. good people.. but here.. we heard he left his wife, has a mistress, the woman is from the bad side of town, 20 yrs younger, I think she's gotten him into drugs.. I mean this IS shocking to myself & husband !! I think he's having a Mid life crisis or something.. he's out of control.. but we say to ourselves.. this is NOT the John we've known for the last 30 yrs [email protected]#

Thank you for sharing.. 



> . After he cheated everything was a lot more obvious, he didn't even look like himself anymore, the fake mask he'd been wearing for the last 6 months were completely gone, and it was like there was nothing left of the man I knew and loved.


 He hated himself for it deep down.. a truly ugly person would not care.. People who are beside themselves with remorse or so SICK they can't face themselves (though much harder to deal with).. it does speak that they aren't exactly just spitting in your face, enjoying their cake & eating it too... those are the ones I see as the lowest.. 



> I guess I find it hard to believe that there are people out there so unwilling to meet their spouses needs, and it's only now from reading this that I start to understand it. With my husband it wasn't unwillingness to meet my needs, but inability. And I have always worked hard to improve the parts of me that has caused problems and could prevent me from meeting his needs. Like pain during sex and phobia of bodily fluids. Despite those issues we've always had a good sex life, and we have worked our way around it, I seem to be almost completely healed from them at this point. *So I guess I've believed those who's been dissatisfied to have been exaggerating or that their spouses must have really been trying, it never occurred to me that someone would be able to see their spouse suffer without trying to find a way to solve the problem.*


 Not everyone is as "giving" as you are .... there are selfish people who don't consider.. don't ask.. don't seek .. to even check in, spend some time with their spouses... They are too busy... maybe addictions have stole from them. who knows.. but still.. it would be very hard to live with... and again.. cause a lot of pain & suffering. .. even the most giving person should only take "so much"... we don't want to become an "enabler" either .. 



> Sounds like the two of you have a lot of valuable experience, does he ever bring up topics like this too? That is one of the things I wish my husband would do more, he is not good at putting words to things and I sometimes feel like I'm training him. He never learned about emotions in his childhood, so I actually am helping him learn to identify and express different emotions.


 So he's learned to shut out his emotions growing up then.. to keep from pain, sounds as though both of your childhoods was traumatic... Emmi, you have an awful lot of patience !!

I can't say my husband brings up relationship topics.. it's more MY thing .. I certainly do it enough.. kinda like a hobby of mine.. he's posted on this forum even, participated in some of my threads ....he's very approachable, willing to share his honest thoughts & feelings with me.. 

He may be a bit on the passive side ... but he's NEVER put up a wall or pushed me away, feeling I wanted too much or was reaching too deep... he's always invited this... 

This quote about love came to me about the 2 of you...it seems your tree & his, despite all that you've just endured... that your trees have ultimately "grown together".. and you'll make this through...


----------



## farsidejunky

The good Petite Sirahs I had were Napa Valley. This is going back ten years, but Stags Leap comes to mind.

Edit: That was one of the few varietals in general I preferred from Napa. I was more fond of the Sonoma wines, especially the Bordeaux type varietals and Chardonnays.


----------



## larry.gray

NobodySpecial said:


> MAN I hate cauliflower. Who the hell invented cauliflower? Who EATS that stuff? Even drowning in cheese sauce it is barely tolerable.
> 
> Now one thing I used to hate is Brussels sprouts. Oooo. With prosciutto in a Parmesan cream sauce. I'm hungry.


Cauliflower was actually invented 500 years ago in continental Europe. It is unclear exactly by who or where. They are all variants of Brassica oleracea

It's an amazing list of vegetables created out of the same plant.


----------



## Emmi

Thank you Simply Amorous for that beautiful quote, I can really relate to that your entire post is just beautiful, it really moved me, I feel relieved that you see us this way. I feel like you really get me, and thank you for that.

I'm so sorry to hear about your friend and what he is going through, and what he must be putting everyone around him through. I hope you get him back, and that his family does before it's too late. A mid life crisis can be truly devastating, a lot of people joke about them because of the fancy cars or new hobbies, but really it is when someone looses themselves completely, and that is just so painful for everyone involved.


----------



## jld

When I think of "scum," I think of drug lords, or people who sell children into sexual slavery. Not people who have sex outside of marriage.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> When I think of "scum," I think of drug lords, or people who sell children into sexual slavery. Not people who have sex outside of marriage.


One does not preclude the other. Or perhaps there are degrees of scuminess.

It's not just sex.

Look, I know what you mean, but the notion is so theoretical in your thinking, that with the greatest respect, I don't think you really get the impacts. 

I've sat at home watching my kids sleep, knowing my wife was with her boyfriend, and that I had to either swallow it and keep trying or break up the family. All when my wife had refused counselling on the basis that she felt every problem with the marriage was my fault. In a situation where the problems driving her to infidelity were a direct result of her decisions. When my wife threatened to have her boyfriend and his friends come around and physically beat me up if I didn't stop making trouble over the time she was spending with her boyfriend. You've never confronted your spouse's lover about their infidelity, to find out later that your spouse had discussed it with their lover in terms of how to stop you making trouble. And so on. 

I know you've had troubles in your family, but my understanding is that Dug was by your side at those times. 

She's a good person (my wife, not Dug), and I love her, and I get the background, but at that stage I think it was an appropriate description, if only for the sake of our children. If she was going to end the marriage, there were more honest and constructive ways to do it. Not for me, but for the kids.

Remember, I'm a reconciled husband, not some recently betrayed person with grief to exorcise. 

I've not seen a single post from you that suggests any real understanding of what infidelity does, or any real empathy for the situation. Sorry, but that's how I see it.

Cletus, sorry, and I hope this doesn't derail an excellent thread, but I couldn't let JLD's post pass without comment.


----------



## wild jade

Kivlor said:


> You're being obtuse.


Am I? How so?

Are you telling me that all men want children? And that their biological clocks are constantly ticking until they know for sure that they have children that belong to them?


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> One does not preclude the other. Or perhaps there are degrees of scuminess.
> 
> It's not just sex.
> 
> Look, I know what you mean, but the notion is so theoretical in your thinking, that with the greatest respect, I don't think you really get the impacts.
> 
> I've sat at home watching my kids sleep, knowing my wife was with her boyfriend, and that I had to either swallow it and keep trying or break up the family. All when my wife had refused counselling on the basis that she felt every problem with the marriage was my fault. In a situation where the problems driving her to infidelity were a direct result of her decisions. When my wife threatened to have her boyfriend and his friends come around and physically beat me up if I didn't stop making trouble over the time she was spending with her boyfriend. You've never confronted your spouse's lover about their infidelity, to find out later that your spouse had discussed it with their lover in terms of how to stop you making trouble. And so on.
> 
> I know you've had troubles in your family, but my understanding is that Dug was by your side at those times.
> 
> She's a good person (my wife, not Dug), and I love her, and I get the background, but at that stage I think it was an appropriate description, if only for the sake of our children. If she was going to end the marriage, there were more honest and constructive ways to do it. Not for me, but for the kids.
> 
> Remember, I'm a reconciled husband, not some recently betrayed person with grief to exorcise.
> 
> I've not seen a single post from you that suggests any real understanding of what infidelity does, or any real empathy for the situation. Sorry, but that's how I see it.
> 
> Cletus, sorry, and I hope this doesn't derail an excellent thread, but I couldn't let JLD's post pass without comment.


I sense you want something from me that I have not thought to provide to you, Wazza. I will try to do that.

I think it is terrible that your wife threatened to have a group of guys beat you up. That really sounds like a misuse of power to me. And completely disrespectful of your humanity. I bet you felt frightened, and trapped. That was not only unkind, but if she had the resources to indeed get you beat up, abusive on her part. And I am not one to use the term "abuse" lightly.

Has she ever apologized for that? Does she see how wrong that was, and truly feel shame and remorse for it?

Or was it not truly meant? Was it blurted out in a fit of emotion?

I do not know the circumstances of your wife's infidelity. To my knowledge she has never come here to explain herself. Does she know you are on TAM?

Dug is a wonderful man, and I cannot imagine his ever having an affair. I cannot imagine ever confronting any potential OW, either. I would not even think of it, tbh. Whatever dealings Dug and I would have would be between me and him.

And I just cannot see Dug ever tolerating any affair that I would have, either. I think he would break it up so fast my head would spin. 

And I can only imagine the shame I would feel over the whole thing. I would not even be able to look at him.

The main problem Dug and I have dealt with in our marriage is our son's cancer. And you are right, we were side by side through it. 

The psychologist at the hospital remarked on how strong our marriage and family life in general were. We are a team, and the kids are a part of the team, too. We all work together for the good of our family.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> I sense you want something from me that I have not thought to provide to you, Wazza. I will try to do that.
> 
> I think it is terrible that your wife threatened to have a group of guys beat you up. That really sounds like a misuse of power to me. And completely disrespectful of your humanity. I bet you felt frightened, and trapped. That was not only unkind, but if she had the resources to indeed get you beat up, abusive on her part. And I am not one to use the term "abuse" lightly.
> 
> Has she ever apologized for that? Does she see how wrong that was, and truly feel shame and remorse for it?
> 
> Or was it not truly meant? Was it blurted out in a fit of emotion?
> 
> I do not know the circumstances of your wife's infidelity. To my knowledge she has never come here to explain herself. Does she know you are on TAM?
> 
> Dug is a wonderful man, and I cannot imagine his ever having an affair. I cannot imagine ever confronting any potential OW, either. I would not even think of it, tbh. Whatever dealings Dug and I would have would be between me and him.
> 
> And I just cannot see Dug ever tolerating any affair that I would have, either. I think he would break it up so fast my head would spin.
> 
> And I can only imagine the shame I would feel over the whole thing. I would not even be able to look at him.
> 
> The main problem Dug and I have dealt with in our marriage is our son's cancer. And you are right, we were side by side through it.
> 
> The psychologist at the hospital remarked on how strong our marriage and family life in general were. We are a team, and the kids are a part of the team, too. We all work together for the good of our family.


JLD, my point was that you don't get it. His post contains more proof of that. If you had an affair Dug would stop it...do you realise the insult contained in that comment? 

My wife feels a lot of shame...now.

You told me you can listen. I'm watching.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> JLD, my point was that you don't get it. You told me you can listen. I'm watching.


I am not here to serve you, Wazza. Take from my post what you can.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> I am not here to serve you, Wazza. Take from my post what you can.


Good listener.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> Good listener.


Equally.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> JLD, my point was that you don't get it. His post contains more proof of that. *If you had an affair Dug would stop it...do you realise the insult contained in that comment? *
> 
> My wife feels a lot of shame...now.
> 
> You told me you can listen. I'm watching.


I just saw that you added the bolded. 

No, I do not see an insult there. I see the thought that sprung into my mind as I contemplated any possible affair. 

And yes, that is exactly what I think Dug would do. Does not mean anyone else can, or would, or should do the same.


----------



## Wazza

Deleting.

Sorry Cletus, no wish to derail your thread. I don't trigger often, but this is such an occasion.


----------



## jld

Let me know if you want anything deleted, Cletus. 

Personally, I think all the thoughts this thread has inspired are interesting.


----------



## Cletus

Wazza said:


> Deleting.
> 
> Sorry Cletus, no wish to derail your thread. I don't trigger often, but this is such an occasion.


I'm not a thread nazi. Knock yourself out.


----------



## EllisRedding

Kivlor said:


> You're being obtuse.


Warden Samuel Norton: What? What did you call me?
Andy Dufresne: Obtuse. Is it deliberate?
Warden Samuel Norton: Son, you're forgetting yourself.
Andy Dufresne: The country club will have his old time cards. Records, W-2s with his name on them.
Warden Samuel Norton: Dufresne, if you wanna indulge in this fantasy, that's your business. Don't make it mine. This meeting is over.
Andy Dufresne: Sir, if I ever get out, I'd never mention what happens here. I'd be just as indictable as you for laundering that money.
Warden Samuel Norton: [slaps the table] Don't you ever mention money to me again, you sorry son of a *****! Not in this office, not anywhere!

:grin2:


----------



## Wazza

EllisRedding said:


> Warden Samuel Norton: What? What did you call me?
> Andy Dufresne: Obtuse. Is it deliberate?
> Warden Samuel Norton: Son, you're forgetting yourself.
> Andy Dufresne: The country club will have his old time cards. Records, W-2s with his name on them.
> Warden Samuel Norton: Dufresne, if you wanna indulge in this fantasy, that's your business. Don't make it mine. This meeting is over.
> Andy Dufresne: Sir, if I ever get out, I'd never mention what happens here. I'd be just as indictable as you for laundering that money.
> Warden Samuel Norton: [slaps the table] Don't you ever mention money to me again, you sorry son of a *****! Not in this office, not anywhere!
> 
> :grin2:


A brilliant post, if only the Hoff weren't your avatar


----------



## EllisRedding

Wazza said:


> A brilliant post, if only the Hoff weren't your avatar


This was actually my very first avatar when I joined TAM


----------



## Wazza

EllisRedding said:


> This was actually my very first avatar when I joined TAM


Implying that you changed it once already. Further evidence of your outstanding intellect and judgement


----------



## Kivlor

wild jade said:


> Am I? How so?
> 
> Are you telling me that all men want children? And that their biological clocks are constantly ticking until they know for sure that they have children that belong to them?


Again, you're being obtuse. And taking what I said out of context.

Genes demand to be replicated. This takes form in the urge to have sex. 

The reality of biology is that paternity is always in question, and maternity cannot be questioned. So when a man cheats on a woman, the risk is not the same as the risk is to a man when a woman cheats on him.

I don't claim to have knowledge of the minds of all men. I'm just describing biology and stating that no, men and women aren't equal in all things. Which answers your question as to why we are more likely to turn a blind eye to a man cheating than a woman.

There is a reason that it is tremendously rare for men to kill their own offspring, but they are tremendously more likely to kill step-children. The natural inclination to protect ones own genes and resources. Biology. One need only look at other top-tier mammals (ie lions, gorillas, etc) to observe this same inclination.


----------



## jld

Meh. I don't see many men killing their stepchildren.


----------



## Kivlor

jld said:


> Meh. I don't see many men killing their stepchildren.


Society punishes child murder pretty harshly in the West JLD, which helps keep our baser instincts in check. 

The stats are pretty obvious, regardless. Men don't kill kids here in the West if those children are theirs. They are far less likely to murder their own children than women are. However, when we look at children living with men, who are _not_ the biological father, there is a dramatic up-tick infanticide. 

There's a reason for this.

Again, look at the way male lions deal with cubs belonging to another male when they take over a pride. Look at what male gorillas do. Gorillas are perhaps the best example, because female gorillas will desperately defend their previous offspring, and male gorillas don't always get an opportunity to eliminate them. But they certainly will.


----------



## jld

So you think laws are the reason more stepdads are not killing their step kids?

How many stepdads kill their step infants?


----------



## larry.gray

jld said:


> Meh. I don't see many men killing their stepchildren.


It's not frequent, but neither is it rare. Watch the local crime reporting news and you'll see examples.

Far more common are men molesting / raping their stepdaughters.


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> Far more common are men molesting / raping their stepdaughters.


That I can believe.


----------



## wild jade

jld said:


> Meh. I don't see many men killing their stepchildren.


When it comes to killing children, it's usually the girls who get it. 

True story.


----------



## larry.gray

Back on topic....

You previously asked I there something we wanted to know about the affair, and there is something:

Busted or confessed?

If confessed, did you come totally clean? 

If confessed, why? Certainly there had to be a strong temptation to take it to the grave. 

Any gaslighting?

Do you feel any level of justification? Or only remorse when the topic is broached?

–-----------

I'm betting I could guess correctly on every one of those items. That is why people aren't coming out with clue by four after you.

PS - Not on the list above because we know the circumstances of the affair, but add to the disdain:

Did you do things with the AP you _sexually deny your spouse?_

Do you still deny those things to your spouse?


----------



## wild jade

Kivlor said:


> Again, you're being obtuse. And taking what I said out of context.
> 
> Genes demand to be replicated. This takes form in the urge to have sex.
> 
> The reality of biology is that paternity is always in question, and maternity cannot be questioned. So when a man cheats on a woman, the risk is not the same as the risk is to a man when a woman cheats on him.
> 
> I don't claim to have knowledge of the minds of all men. I'm just describing biology and stating that no, men and women aren't equal in all things. Which answers your question as to why we are more likely to turn a blind eye to a man cheating than a woman.
> 
> There is a reason that it is tremendously rare for men to kill their own offspring, but they are tremendously more likely to kill step-children. The natural inclination to protect ones own genes and resources. Biology. One need only look at other top-tier mammals (ie lions, gorillas, etc) to observe this same inclination.



Have to disagree with your interpretations here, then. All of them.

The risk you are defining is only from the perspective of the male. And biology, my friend, includes both males and females.

Paternity is absolutely irrelevant to the propagation of the species. As long as the babies are born, and raised so that they too can mate and have babies of their own, then the species will survive.

Yes, some primates like gorillas do try to claim ownership of propagation with some chest-thumping and fighting. But the females know better, and do their own thing. Genetic diversity, you know, improves the overall health of the species.


----------



## Cletus

larry.gray said:


> Back on topic....
> 
> You previously asked I there something we wanted to know about the affair, and there is something:
> 
> Busted or confessed?


Confessed. 



> If confessed, did you come totally clean?


Yes. There wasn't that much too it, really. It had gone on for all of maybe two or three weeks with a single physical event. 



> If confessed, why? Certainly there had to be a strong temptation to take it to the grave.


I thought I had contracted an STD, even though I had used condoms. I had to explain why I was avoiding her in the bedroom while awaiting test results since I was not going to pass on something. 

And yes, I would have taken it to the grave otherwise. 



> Any gaslighting?


No. I explained why I did what I did, which was what I have outlined here.



> Do you feel any level of justification? Or only remorse when the topic is broached?


When it comes up with her, which is rare these days, the only thing I feel is remorse. That's when the twinge of conscience pricks the hardest - when the person you betrayed is right next to you. 

Alone, in my personal thoughts, I wouldn't say justified is the other emotion I experience. I would have to say a feeling of having been cheated out of something - I did what was asked of me, I proved my worth as a potential mate, I allowed her to set the tone of our sexual relationship from abstinence before marriage to activity within. And for what? For the cruel joke of finding out we were never compatible to begin with and should probably have never gotten married.

But no, not justified for going outside of my marriage. 



> PS - Not on the list above because we know the circumstances of the affair, but add to the disdain:
> 
> Did you do things with the AP you _sexually deny your spouse?_
> 
> Do you still deny those things to your spouse?


There is nothing that I deny my spouse sexually, before or since.


----------



## soccermom2three

My dad had an affair about 30 years ago. Not for one minute have I ever thought he was a scumbag. When I look at what was going on with his life leading up to the affair, it was like a perfect storm and his response to it was really, really stupid. My parents reconciled and will be married 53 years this coming Tuesday. 

My dad is good man that has had one **** up. It doesn't in no way define him. He had what's called a "warning stroke" just this last Father's Day. The outpouring of love from family and friends, (so many friends!) was so overwhelming. My mom right there by his side is inspiring. No bitterness, just love.


----------



## soccermom2three

Also, just to comment on why Cletus is not getting flamed. I think there is a double standard still to this day that men are justified in getting their needs met elsewhere if they are not getting it at home. I've seen posted (several times) where a poster will ask the BW if she's out of shape or meeting her husband's needs, essentially blaming the affair on her.


----------



## MEM2020

The board has some serious gender skew regarding sex. 

Men get more slack for cheating 

And

In sex starved marriages, the default reaction is mainly:
To the sex starved HD man: What's wrong with you? And what are you doing to fix it?

To the sex starved HD woman: What's wrong with your H, and what is HE doing to fix it? 





soccermom2three said:


> Also, just to comment on why Cletus is not getting flamed. I think there is a double standard still to this day that men are justified in getting their needs met elsewhere if they are not getting it at home. I've seen posted (several times) where a poster will ask the BW if she's out of shape or meeting her husband's needs, essentially blaming the affair on her.


----------



## LucasJackson

soccermom2three said:


> Also, just to comment on why Cletus is not getting flamed. I think there is a double standard still to this day that men are justified in getting their needs met elsewhere if they are not getting it at home. I've seen posted (several times) where a poster will ask the BW if she's out of shape or meeting her husband's needs, essentially blaming the affair on her.


Whoever would ask a BW those things is a first rate a-hole.


----------



## Wazza

soccermom2three said:


> My dad had an affair about 30 years ago. Not for one minute have I ever thought he was a scumbag. When I look at what was going on with his life leading up to the affair, it was like a perfect storm and his response to it was really, really stupid. My parents reconciled and will be married 53 years this coming Tuesday.
> 
> My dad is good man that has had one **** up. It doesn't in no way define him. He had what's called a "warning stroke" just this last Father's Day. The outpouring of love from family and friends, (so many friends!) was so overwhelming. My mom right there by his side is inspiring. No bitterness, just love.


I'm glad they worked it out.

I think that not all affairs are equal. So, for example, based on what Cletus has disclosed, my wife was far worse (went on longer, was a real relationship with dates, not just sex, never came clean, most of what I know about it was found out despite her denials). 

But then it was a once off, at a low point in her life. And while, as I said, the major decisions that led to it were her decisions, I was not free of blame, and there are a lot of things we see now that we didn't at the time. I've also seen far, far worse than what my wife did.

When I joined TAM there were a few couples both posting, and I found those really helpful, to understand the way things look for a wayward. There are certain things I just never could make sense of until then. That's why I think Cletus's thread is so good. Because it's rare now.

I'm sure there is gender imbalance, but I also think TAM is very BS centric. I actually think having more WS input would help the BS.


----------



## sapientia

Kivlor said:


> Again, you're being obtuse. And taking what I said out of context.
> 
> Genes demand to be replicated. This takes form in the urge to have sex.
> 
> *The reality of biology is that paternity is always in question, and maternity cannot be questioned. *So when a man cheats on a woman, the risk is not the same as the risk is to a man when a woman cheats on him.
> 
> I don't claim to have knowledge of the minds of all men. I'm just describing biology and stating that no, men and women aren't equal in all things. *Which answers your question as to why we are more likely to turn a blind eye to a man cheating than a woman.*
> 
> There is a reason that it is tremendously rare for men to kill their own offspring, but they are tremendously more likely to kill step-children. The natural inclination to protect ones own genes and resources. Biology. One need only look at other top-tier mammals (ie lions, gorillas, etc) to observe this same inclination.


Why is this even relevant with the ready availability of paternity tests and birth control? We all have base urges that we keep in check in a civilized society. Men have no more "good" reason to cheat than women do.


----------



## Emmi

Biology might stear some urges, but emotionally speaking I'm pretty sure being cheated on is equally bad for either gender. 

It genuinely pisses me off when people suggest it's worse for a man simply because of biology, in a lot of the cases there might not even be children involved, or at least not children of the appropriate age for that to be of any concern.

My husband just said he thinks people with those options might have been in the gene pool a bit too much.


----------



## Kivlor

sapientia said:


> Why is this even relevant with the ready availability of paternity tests and birth control? We all have base urges that we keep in check in a civilized society. Men have no more "good" reason to cheat than women do.


That's not what I was saying. It's obvious that men cheating is not acceptable.

But we (society) judge one as worse than the other, because the risks and consequences aren't the same. Which was my point. 

And in places like France it is illegal for a man to DNA "his" children now. 

Even with the increase in availability of testing, it would be quite naive to assume that society would change view of something that is deep in our genes in a generation.


----------



## Emmi

Kivlor said:


> That's not what I was saying. It's obvious that men cheating is not acceptable.
> 
> But we (society) judge one as worse than the other, because the risks and consequences aren't the same. Which was my point.
> 
> And in places like France it is illegal for a man to DNA "his" children now.
> 
> Even with the increase in availability of testing, it would be quite naive to assume that society would change view of something that is deep in our genes in a generation.


The risks and consequences are exactly the same, a man can just as easily get a child as a woman, in both cases it creates equal risk to the resources of the family. Both can lie about it. I think it's more unlikely for a woman to be able to conceal the truth now than before.


----------



## sapientia

Kivlor said:


> But we (society) judge one as worse than the other, because the risks and consequences aren't the same. Which was my point.


If you want to make this *solely* a biological argument then you have it exactly backward. The risks of cheating are much higher for a woman, who bears--literally--the risk of having to carry an infant to term for 9 months and then caring for that infant afterward.


----------



## Kivlor

sapientia said:


> If you want to make this *solely* a biological argument then you have it exactly backward. The risks of cheating are much higher for a woman, who bears--literally--the risk of having to carry an infant to term for 9 months and then carrying for that infant afterward.


Nothing compared to the risk of being kicked out of the gene pool. 

But that said, you're adding an extra item to why it's especially egregious that a woman cheats, even more so than a man. She is risking her situation, and her H's, and that of the contemplated child, in ways that a man cannot fully reciprocate when he cheats.

Still, both are pretty heinous. 
@Emmi

They are not the same. I think you're taking this a little personal, and if so, I am sorry for it. It's not aimed at women in general, but a musing of the facts of life.

The risks of a man cheating on his W are similar to those of a woman cheating on her H in that both risk STIs, risk the family unit with dissolution, and there are the risks of an illegitimate child.

Now, the divergence is in this: A man cannot hide a child's maternity, and present it to his W as though it's hers. A woman can do this, and to do so risks gene death for the H. And there is tremendous incentive for a woman carrying an illegitimate child to do just this.

One of these situations is ethically worse than the other. Both are unethical.


----------



## anonmd

If you are going to make that argument get it right. Society does not care if the child the man assumes is his actually is. Yes, the women takes the economic risk of likely being the caregiver if found out and left behind. But presumably she wanted the child. 

Biologically, if a women has two children with two different men and is not found out she has accomplished spreading her genes on 2 different cell lines, a positive. If a male has a child of children with a female and believes they are his but in reality they are not then his gene line ends with him. That is the 'bigger risk', it's a biological / evolutionary thing. It is real, is it why men may get more pissed off about it? Maybe but I doubt it, most men aren't that cold blooded / clear thinking / smart.


----------



## larry.gray

sapientia said:


> If you want to make this *solely* a biological argument then you have it exactly backward. The risks of cheating are much higher for a woman, who bears--literally--the risk of having to carry an infant to term for 9 months and then caring for that infant afterward.


But the child of her affair is still hers. A betrayed man can be fooled into raising a child that isn't his.

Reverse the gender, and a betrayed woman knows the child of an affair isn't hers. She gets to decide on her own if she will accept having the affair child around her or not.


----------



## larry.gray

I'll add:

Women have a difficult time empathizing with a man in this situation because they cannot be placed in this situation with a child.

On the other hand, it is possible for a woman to be included with her son when he is decieved by false paternity. I've seen this happen, and suddenly the lightbulb will go off for the only thought you were a grandma.


----------



## sapientia

larry.gray said:


> But the child of her affair is still hers. *A betrayed man can be fooled into raising a child that isn't his.*
> 
> Reverse the gender, and a betrayed woman knows the child of an affair isn't hers. She gets to decide on her own if she will accept having the affair child around her or not.


Paternity testing--readily available--has removed this risk IF he chooses to make use of it. The tests are available, trivial (I could do this in a lab easily in a day) and reliable. Your argument is a 20th century one.


----------



## sapientia

anonmd said:


> Biologically, if a women has two children with two different men and is not found out she has accomplished spreading her genes on 2 different cell lines, a positive. If a male has a child of children with a female and believes they are his but in reality they are not then his gene line ends with him. That is the 'bigger risk', it's a biological / evolutionary thing.


If the man find out, the woman is left raising the kids financially, possibly while pregnant. Or the male kills the offspring, or her, or both. Whether she "chose" it isn't material, as we are discussing Risk.

So, I accept your evolutionary argument, (yawn, I read the Red Queen years ago as part of my PhD training also) but I disagree about Risk, which is often defined with an element of "danger". There is no immediate danger to the male, compared with the female, if cheating is discovered.

Also, further to your "genetic loss" argument, a male can very quickly make up for any evolutionary loss of spreading his genes, whereas a woman cannot. A man can impregnate any number of females, in theory at least several hundred a year if he is promiscuous. A female can only have one, or rarely two for a multiple birth, in a single year.


----------



## Kivlor

sapientia said:


> Paternity testing--readily available--has removed this risk IF he chooses to make use of it. The tests are available, trivial (I could do this in a lab easily in a day) and reliable. Your argument is a 20th century one.


I think we already established that some nations (like France) have banned these tests.

Also, are you supposing that we should DNA every child born? Because without doing that, the risks are there for every man who doesn't suspect his wife was cheating.


----------



## larry.gray

sapientia said:


> Paternity testing--readily available--has removed this risk IF he chooses to make use of it. The tests are available, trivial (I could do this in a lab easily in a day) and reliable. Your argument is a 20th century one.


It isn't as simple as you make it out.

How would react to your husband testing your kids? Most women would be highly pissed off. It is an accusation of infidelity. That makes the test risky and only likely to be used if the guy has a suspicion. 

Do you support 100% testing at birth? Without 100% testing, men will still be tricked. Meanwhile women that CAN'T be tricked will fail to grasp the issue.


----------



## Kivlor

I find it appalling that women cannot seem to empathize with the risk of gene death that men face with cuckoldry. It is a far greater risk than having your spouse leave you. It is the risk that you, and all the generations that led up to you, will be removed, permanently. There is no greater threat.

It's the typical "Women always have it worse! Patriarchy!" BS. Completely ignorant, and determined by your in-group loyalty.


----------



## sapientia

larry.gray said:


> It isn't as simple as you make it out.
> 
> How would react to your husband testing your kids? Most women would be highly pissed off. It is an accusation of infidelity. That makes the test risky and only likely to be used if the guy has a suspicion.
> 
> Do you support 100% testing at birth? Without 100% testing, men will still be tricked. Meanwhile women that CAN'T be tricked will fail to grasp the issue.


You need to understand the context of my comment, which was addressing the biological argument that men were more at risk from cheating than women. I disagree--biologically.

As for your more personal argument, my answer is -- it depends. I wouldn't care because I'm certain of the parentage of my son. I'd be more concerned about what else a genetic test might uncover.

My point is the test IS readily available. It's trivial. There is no risk, I could do the test in a day with some cheek cells and a PCR machine. Men who are tricked, particularly those who have some reason for suspicion, are allowing themselves to be tricked.


----------



## larry.gray

sapientia said:


> Also, a male can very quickly make up for any evolutionary loss of spreading his genes, whereas a woman cannot. A man can impregnate any number of females, in theory at least several hundred a year if he is promiscuous. A female can only have one, or rarely two for a multiple birth, in a single year.


Wait, what??,. You're claiming women don't kill cheating husbands???


----------



## sapientia

Kivlor said:


> I find it appalling that women cannot seem to empathize with the risk of gene death that men face with cuckoldry. It is a far greater risk than having your spouse leave you. It is the risk that you, and all the generations that led up to you, will be removed, permanently. There is no greater threat.


If you really believed this Kivlor, and your goal is to spread your genes far and wide, you would be out there impregnating as many women as you possibly can. Those who come to you claiming kids can be tested for parentage, and you can financially support those that are legitimately yours.


----------



## sapientia

larry.gray said:


> Wait, what??,. You're claiming women don't kill cheating husbands???


Where did I post that? I think you are making something up I didn't actually post.


----------



## wild jade

sapientia said:


> If you really believed this Kivlor, and your goal is to spread your genes far and wide, you would be out there impregnating as many women as you possibly can. Those who come to you claiming kids can be tested for parentage, and you can financially support those that are legitimately yours.


Exactly! This whole threat of gene death is nonstarter. Mick Jagger is still making babies at 80. Just keep fvcking women if you think you haven't spread your genes far enough.

Of course, if you actually care about children, you might take a different approach ....


----------



## wild jade

Kivlor said:


> I find it appalling that women cannot seem to empathize with the risk of gene death that men face with cuckoldry. It is a far greater risk than having your spouse leave you. It is the risk that you, and all the generations that led up to you, will be removed, permanently. There is no greater threat.
> 
> It's the typical "Women always have it worse! Patriarchy!" BS. Completely ignorant, and determined by your in-group loyalty.


Pffft. Half the men I know don't even want kids, period. Many others were dragged kicking and screaming into paternity (although fell in love with their kids after they were born).

And the reality is, if the guy doesn't know that the kids aren't his, it isn't going to make one iota of difference to his psychological well-being.

As I said earlier, biology doesn't give a damn whether one individual does or does not pass on their genes. Maybe some men care, but there is always a solution for that ...


----------



## jld

Kivlor said:


> I find it appalling that women cannot seem to empathize with the risk of gene death that men face with cuckoldry. It is a far greater risk than having your spouse leave you. It is the risk that you, and all the generations that led up to you, will be removed, permanently. There is no greater threat.
> 
> It's the typical "Women always have it worse! Patriarchy!" BS. Completely ignorant, and determined by your in-group loyalty.


I still do not get how this is supposedly a "threat." A loss, yes. But "threat"?


----------



## Kivlor

sapientia said:


> If you really believed this Kivlor, and your goal is to spread your genes far and wide, you would be out there impregnating as many women as you possibly can. Those who come to you claiming kids can be tested for parentage, and you can financially support those that are legitimately yours.


I tend toward a very strong K Reproduction Strategy--high investment.

From a purely biological perspective, I have a high desire to copulate with many many women. All the time. I prevent myself from doing this, because it is not in my best interests, nor is it in the best interest of guaranteeing gene success.

It would actually be more in my interest to marry, have kids, make sure they're mine, and then go about impregnating women in other states, who will never find me, and just hope some of those seeds grow, while I tend carefully to my own garden.

But again, self-control comes in. Which I assume most of us have to some degree, or there'd be a lot more murder in the West.


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## Kivlor

wild jade said:


> Pffft. Half the men I know don't even want kids, period. Many others were dragged kicking and screaming into paternity (although fell in love with their kids after they were born).
> 
> And the reality is, if the guy doesn't know that the kids aren't his, it isn't going to make one iota of difference to his psychological well-being.
> 
> As I said earlier, biology doesn't give a damn whether one individual does or does not pass on their genes. Maybe some men care, but there is always a solution for that ...


You are conflating notions. Psychological well-being doesn't even begin to weigh in to this, nor does anything you just said. 










I recommend you go, study this subject, and return. 

It will probably take a few months of hard work. But I'm sure you can manage the rigor, if you have the inclination.


----------



## sapientia

Kivlor said:


> I tend toward a very strong K Reproduction Strategy--high investment.
> 
> From a purely biological perspective, I have a high desire to copulate with many many women. All the time. I prevent myself from doing this, because it is not in my best interests, nor is it in the best interest of guaranteeing gene success.
> 
> It would actually be more in my interest to marry, have kids, make sure they're mine, and then go about impregnating women in other states, who will never find me, and just hope some of those seeds grow, while I tend carefully to my own garden.
> 
> *But again, self-control comes in. Which I assume most of us have to some degree, or there'd be a lot more murder in the West.*


I agree, and now we've come full circle, as you are recycling the very argument I made in my earliest post on the topic re: civilized society.

The fact is, until uterine replicators are a reality, women are always taking the bigger risk re: having children--cheating being an even riskier version thereof.

Physically, we are hosting a child in our bodies for 9 months. Aside from increased risk of hypertension, diabetes and a host of other effects, women are at the mercy of their partners. This can be very bad in abusive situations. Bluntly, it's damn hard for a woman to run when she's off balance and carrying an extra 50+ lbs on her 130 lb frame.

Aside from the health impacts, there can also be financial ones, depending on what kind of job the woman has. While some women like myself are financially independent enough to afford children on her own, most woman are not able to do this. This generally remains true for as long as the children are young and dependent and require full-time caregiving.

Women also take a calculated risk re: their careers. There are far fewer female CEOs and senior leaders who also have children, never mind several children. Executive women have to choose between their careers and their families. I speak from experience. In my case, my compromise was to have only one child, and work in an industry that allowed me some flexibility in my work.

Now, if a man cheats, what does he REALLY risk, compared to all the above for a woman? Despite society's pressures, there are many men who still walk away from their biological children. A woman walking away from her kids is very rare, and usually means some kind of sociopath diagnosis.

The real challenge for men like you, Kivlor, is to convince a highly educated, accomplished woman WHY she should risk all these^ things to partake in your "high investment" child rearing strategy. As presumably this is the kind of woman you would also think would have the most to contribute to your children.


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## wild jade

Kivlor said:


> You are conflating notions. Psychological well-being doesn't even begin to weigh in to this, nor does anything you just said.


LOL dude! Fraid you got that backwards.


----------



## Lila

Kivlor said:


> But again, self-control comes in. Which I assume most of us have to some degree, or there'd be a lot more murder in the West.


Everything you described regarding the male reproductive mentality describes neanderthal thinking. Do you know what separates modern man from the neanderthal? A neocortex. It's what separates humans from other animals. It's what gives us the ability to decide right from wrong. It gives us consciousness. It's what keeps modern men from trying to impregnate any woman they meet for the sole purpose of advancing their gene pool. If a man lacks that integral part of his thinking, then he lacks the neocortex...i.e. He's unevolved. 


Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## larry.gray

sapientia said:


> Where did I post that? I think you are making something up I didn't actually post.


I missed the word "gene" in your post. My appologies.


----------



## sapientia

Kivlor said:


> You are conflating notions. Psychological well-being doesn't even begin to weigh in to this, nor does anything you just said.
> 
> I recommend you go, study this subject, and return.
> 
> It will probably take a few months of hard work. But I'm sure you can manage the rigor, if you have the inclination.


You're being unnecessarily harsh on her. I never told you to go and study evolutionary biology before having an argument with ME on the topic, and I am far and away more of an expert than you on the subject.

I agree that discussing psychological impacts is an unfair place to go, being way too subjective to come to any conclusion in a discussion like this. Most men care deeply for their children, and would be devastated I'm sure to find out their "kids" actually weren't theirs. I don't agree either with the "what they don't know won't hurt them" argument. 

But we are discussing Risk. I don't think that means the men are more "at risk" than the woman in that scenario. I actually think the woman is taking a terrible risk, that will only fully play out when he finds out.


----------



## Kivlor

sapientia said:


> I agree, and now we've come full circle, as you are recycling the very argument I made in my earliest post on the topic re: civilized society.
> 
> The fact is, until uterine replicators are a reality, women are always taking the bigger risk re: having children--cheating being an even riskier version thereof.
> 
> Physically, we are hosting a child in our bodies for 9 months. Aside from increased risk of hypertension, diabetes and a host of other effects, women are at the mercy of their partners. This can be very bad in abusive situations. Bluntly, it's damn hard for a woman to run when she's off balance and carrying an extra 50+ lbs on her 130 lb frame.
> 
> Aside from the health impacts, there can also be financial ones, depending on what kind of job the woman has. While some women like myself are financially independent enough to afford children on her own, most woman are not able to do this. This generally remains true for as long as the children are young and dependent and require full-time caregiving.
> 
> Women also take a calculated risk re: their careers. There are far fewer female CEOs and senior leaders who also have children, never mind several children. Executive women have to choose between their careers and their families. I speak from experience. In my case, my compromise was to have only one child, and work in an industry that allowed me some flexibility in my work.
> 
> Now, if a man cheats, what does he REALLY risk, compared to all the above for a woman? Despite society's pressures, there are many men who still walk away from their biological children. A woman walking away from her kids is very rare, and usually means some kind of sociopath diagnosis.
> 
> The real challenge for men like you, Kivlor, is to convince a highly educated, accomplished woman WHY she should risk all these^ things to partake in your "high investment" child rearing strategy. As presumably this is the kind of woman you would also think would have the most to contribute to your children.


Sapi, I think you're agreeing with me, and not realizing it. It appears that you and I are more on the same page here, than say WJ or JLD.

What I was saying is: 

When a woman cheats she puts more at risk, including the risk to the H of gene death. I assume we all understand the physical risks of carrying a child.

When a man cheats he does not put the same amount of things at risk. He doesn't risk death or carrying a child, and he cannot possibly risk his partner with gene death. 

Ergo, it is safe to say that these are not equal situations. Completely due to the biology of the situations. And because they are not equal situations, it would be strange if society judged them equally, and frowned on them equally. In fact, that would be the definition of unjust.

So when people like WJ try to imply that this is an issue of sexism, they are mistaken. It is an issue of unequal circumstance.


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## anonmd

And women complain their husbands don't understand them 

Look, nobody really expects you to agree. A tiny expression of understanding followed by a yeah but, women are always worse off might be pleasant for a change:smile2:


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## Kivlor

Sapi, regarding the whole R - K strategy spectrum (and it is a spectrum) and finding a mate, you are correct. The difficulty I face is finding a suitable partner, who wants to take on the risks and costs associated with having children, and caring for them; and when you want to have 3+ kids that becomes a much smaller pool with the way society is today. 

Of course, for me, a woman who has a great job isn't nearly as important as finding one who has (A) sufficient IQ; (B) Loyalty; (C) a desire to raise a family.


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## sapientia

Kivlor said:


> And in places like France it is illegal for a man to DNA "his" children now.


FWIW, I think this^ is just stupid. French make great food and okay wine but some of their rules are just archaic. They can't stop people from doing this. Any decent high school lab has the facilities today to check paternity. This is trying to contain the horse with the barn door blown off.

Even before actual DNA testing, we've always had indicators of parentage, even if it was by observing genetic inheritance patterns like eye colour.

I assume most of you men know that if you and your W are both blue-eyed and you end up with a dark eyed child, you need to ask some hard questions?


----------



## jld

sapientia said:


> FWIW, I think this^ is just stupid. French make great food and okay wine but some of their rules are just archaic. They can't stop people from doing this. Any decent high school lab has the facilities today to check paternity. This is trying to contain the horse with the barn door blown off.
> 
> Even before actual DNA testing, we've always had indicators of parentage, even if it was by observing genetic inheritance patterns like eye colour.
> 
> I assume most of you men know that if you and your W are both blue-eyed and you end up with a dark eyed child, you need to ask some hard questions?


Could be from farther back in the gene pool.


----------



## sapientia

Kivlor said:


> Sapi, regarding the whole R - K strategy spectrum (and it is a spectrum) and finding a mate, you are correct. The difficulty I face is finding a suitable partner, who wants to take on the risks and costs associated with having children, and caring for them; and when you want to have 3+ kids that becomes a much smaller pool with the way society is today.
> 
> Of course, for me, a woman who has a great job isn't nearly as important as finding one who has (A) sufficient IQ; (B) Loyalty; (C) a desire to raise a family.


Yes. I feel for you, it's not easy. A decade or so ago I would have said "marry foreign/asian" but even that isn't a guarantee today.

Sexual politics has really changed the game, especially for men. I have a really great son, kind, good looking, on track for a great career and success. I have NO idea if I will ever get grandchildren, something that honestly makes me sad, even if I intellectually understand why young women today don't want to take the risk of marriage and children.

I was at a family event with a friend whose son was speaking. Nice young man, good looking, great job. He mentioned, somewhat tongue in cheek, that "if any ladies there happened to be single, so was he... and he was very gainfully employed". We all laughed, but we also felt a bit sad for him since, in our generation, he wouldn't even be single by this time in his life.

I hope I didn't depress you. What I really wish you, and all the nice young men like you, is: good luck.


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## sapientia

jld said:


> Could be from farther back in the gene pool.


No, sorry, it doesn't work that way for eye colour. A brown-brown cross can have a blue-eyed child, but two blues never equal brown, except in a very rare instance of some kind of mutation.


----------



## wild jade

Kivlor said:


> Sapi, I think you're agreeing with me, and not realizing it. It appears that you and I are more on the same page here, than say WJ or JLD.
> 
> What I was saying is:
> 
> When a woman cheats she puts more at risk, including the risk to the H of gene death. I assume we all understand the physical risks of carrying a child.
> 
> When a man cheats he does not put the same amount of things at risk. He doesn't risk death or carrying a child, and he cannot possibly risk his partner with gene death.
> 
> Ergo, it is safe to say that these are not equal situations. Completely due to the biology of the situations. And because they are not equal situations, it would be strange if society judged them equally, and frowned on them equally. In fact, that would be the definition of unjust.
> 
> So when people like WJ try to imply that this is an issue of sexism, they are mistaken. It is an issue of unequal circumstance.



Please let me clarify. I don't think this is an issue of sexism. At all. I just think you plain just don't understand biology. 

Tell me, how is it that a woman can "risk a man with gene death", but a man cannot do the same to a woman? Reality is that if a woman wants a baby, she has one. If a man wants to spread his seed, he spreads it as far and wide as he can. 

Biology is completely indifferent to the individuals involved. If a man reproduces, he has passed on his genes, whether he knows it or not. Whether he cares for the child or not. There are lots of men out there that don't even know they have children.


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## sapientia

anonmd said:


> And women complain their husbands don't understand them
> 
> Look, nobody really expects you to agree. A tiny expression of understanding followed by a yeah but, women are always worse off might be pleasant for a change:smile2:


Who is this post directed to? If me, did you even read my other posts? Geeze, are you just POd that I happen to actually know a LOT about this subject?

You and I haven't interacted much here on TAM, but I am most definitely not "one of those" feminazis. I can't stand those kinds of women. I am, however, about rational, fact-supported argumentation.


----------



## sapientia

Kivlor said:


> Sapi, I think you're agreeing with me, and not realizing it. It appears that you and I are more on the same page here, than say WJ or JLD.
> 
> What I was saying is:
> 
> When a woman cheats she puts more at risk, including the risk to the H of gene death. I assume we all understand the physical risks of carrying a child.
> 
> When a man cheats he does not put the same amount of things at risk. He doesn't risk death or carrying a child, and he cannot possibly risk his partner with gene death.
> 
> Ergo, it is safe to say that these are not equal situations. Completely due to the biology of the situations. And because they are not equal situations, it would be strange if society judged them equally, and frowned on them equally. In fact, that would be the definition of unjust.
> 
> So when people like WJ try to imply that this is an issue of sexism, they are mistaken. It is an issue of unequal circumstance.


Yes, okay I can agree with this.


----------



## sapientia

wild jade said:


> Tell me, how is it that a woman can "risk a man with gene death", but a man cannot do the same to a woman?


He can, and does, if one assumes the male is the primary source of resources for that child, and by cheating and having other offspring, he dilutes those resources among many children. So the risk goes both ways, as he is also expending resources on a child not his if his wife cheats.

This is one of Kivlor's arguments for not cheating, if I understand him correctly. Moral argument aside, of course.


----------



## wild jade

sapientia said:


> You're being unnecessarily harsh on her. I never told you to go and study evolutionary biology before having an argument with ME on the topic, and I am far and away more of an expert than you on the subject.
> 
> I agree that discussing psychological impacts is an unfair place to go, being way too subjective to come to any conclusion in a discussion like this. Most men care deeply for their children, and would be devastated I'm sure to find out their "kids" actually weren't theirs. I don't agree either with the "what they don't know won't hurt them" argument.
> 
> But we are discussing Risk. I don't think that means the men are more "at risk" than the woman in that scenario. I actually think the woman is taking a terrible risk, that will only fully play out when he finds out.



Wait, what? I wasn't saying that men don't care for their children ...

And why not get into the psychological? That's exactly where this whole "gene death" trauma is, isn't it? It actually has nothing at all to do with biology itself and everything to do with men wanting to leave a legacy that is them and theirs, and that they know is theirs.

This is purely psychology isn't it? Evolution and biology is indifferent to individuals.

I can very much sympathize about the difficulty of finding out that who you thought was your child isn't. I just don't think this has anything to do with biology or gene death.


----------



## 225985

sapientia said:


> No, sorry, it doesn't work that way for eye colour. A brown-brown cross can have a blue-eyed child, *but two blues never equal brown,* except in a very rare instance of some kind of mutation.


Not true. Read this.

How Blue Eyed Parents Can Have Brown Eyed Children | Understanding Genetics


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## wild jade

sapientia said:


> He can, and does, if one assumes the male is the primary source of resources for that child, and by cheating and having other offspring, he dilutes those resources among many children. So the risk goes both ways, as he is also expending resources on a child not his if his wife cheats.
> 
> This is one of Kivlor's arguments for not cheating, if I understand him correctly. Moral argument aside, of course.


Except it all hinges on the presumption that reproduction and child-rearing is 100% nuclear family. And the reality is that the nuclear family is a very modern concept, and not the strongest family structure at that.

As they say, it takes a village to raise a child.


----------



## sapientia

wild jade said:


> This is purely psychology isn't it? Evolution and biology is indifferent to individuals.


Genes and offspring are biological concerns. I'm much better at keeping those arguments straight. The pysch argument is going to be messy, since it's going to be very subjective. I'm not going to go there, having already said my piece on that, but I'd be amused to watch you try if you wish.


----------



## sapientia

wild jade said:


> Except it all hinges on the presumption that reproduction and child-rearing is 100% nuclear family. And the reality is that the nuclear family is a very modern concept, and not the strongest family structure at that.
> 
> As they say, it takes a village to raise a child.


You need to decide what your thesis is and stick to it, at least for a little while. You are all over the place with your ideas.


----------



## Kivlor

wild jade said:


> Please let me clarify. I don't think this is an issue of sexism. At all. I just think you plain just don't understand biology.
> 
> Tell me, how is it that a woman can "risk a man with gene death", but a man cannot do the same to a woman? Reality is that if a woman wants a baby, she has one. If a man wants to spread his seed, he spreads it as far and wide as he can.
> 
> Biology is completely indifferent to the individuals involved. If a man reproduces, he has passed on his genes, whether he knows it or not. Whether he cares for the child or not. There are lots of men out there that don't even know they have children.


Comments like this are why I asked you to go back and spend some time studying this. I'm going to gloss over this is fast as possible, so I'm skipping quite a bit for brevity.

There are 2 basic strategies for reproduction R (lots of kids, low investment by parents--think fish) and K (few kids, high investment by parents--think wolves). They fall on a spectrum. Humans are a strongly K species. Now, let's take this to things like monogamy and cheating--which is what got this tangent set off. 

When a man and a woman settle down for a monogamous relationship the basic understanding of the two is that neither will sleep with other individuals and they will raise the resulting children together. They are forgoing any kind of R strategy, and favoring one that is purely K. Historically, the male offered resources while the female offered access to her eggs, guaranteed paternity and higher investment in the shared offspring (as she won't have to work as hard with a partner helping feed them, as she would alone).

Now, lets bring in cheating--which is what set off this tangential discussion. 

If a man cheats while his wife remains faithful to the relationship, he doesn't prevent his W from having kids that are hers. 

If a woman cheats while her husband remains faithful to the relationship, she risks her husband being removed from the gene pool. Gene death.

Hope that helps.


----------



## Kivlor

sapientia said:


> He can, and does, if one assumes the male is the primary source of resources for that child, and by cheating and having other offspring, he dilutes those resources among many children. So the risk goes both ways, as he is also expending resources on a child not his if his wife cheats.
> 
> This is one of Kivlor's arguments for not cheating, if I understand him correctly. Moral argument aside, of course.


Yes. But I would argue it is an ethical argument, that both fraud and theft are unethical, and this would be both fraud and theft, therefore immoral. 

Cheating is immoral in the first place. Adding in the above-mentioned fraud would make it even worse than it is on its own.


----------



## Kivlor

wild jade said:


> Except it all hinges on the presumption that reproduction and child-rearing is 100% nuclear family. And the reality is that the nuclear family is a very modern concept, and not the strongest family structure at that.
> 
> As they say, it takes a village to raise a child.


Ok, you're really all over the place, which is what's causing me frustration here. 

My original post, and all subsequent posts were in response to your comment about cheating, and how we judge women cheating differently than we do men.

Cheating requires a monogamous relationship. If you're not in a monogamous relationship, and ****ting it up, then you're not cheating. 

So I'm lost. I get the feeling you're arguing to argue, rather than to explain / defend / test a position.


----------



## sapientia

blueinbr said:


> Not true. Read this.
> 
> How Blue Eyed Parents Can Have Brown Eyed Children | Understanding Genetics


Okay, I stand corrected. I forgot how easy it is for non-experts to actually google stuff these days. I used to teach genetics to first year med students, and I trained in a molecular/immunogenetics lab, did you really want me to go into a lecture about OCA and HERC genes here? I posted about *mutations* being a possible exception. Did you actually understand the article you posted?

_*So someone with only broken HERC2 genes will have blue eyes no matter what OCA2 says.* This is because the working OCA2 can't be turned on so no pigment gets made._

This^ is an example of a mutation. So yes, while it's possible for 2 blue eyed parents to have a brown eyed child, it's rather rare compared to the expected blue-blue cross leading to blue-eyed offspring.

_"*Although not common, two blue-eyed parents can produce children with brown eyes*," says Richard A. Sturm, a Principal Research Fellow at the Institute for Molecular Bioscience at the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia._

Blue Eyes - a clue to paternity https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/10/061023193617.htm

Hope that helps. Sigh.


----------



## Cletus

So, folks, in the context of scumbags, I already had a vasectomy and I used a condom. So I don't really think any notion of propagation had much to do with it, really.


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## sapientia

Have any of you read The Gate to Women's Country? It's a good read re: genetic selection. A bit much on the female persecution throughout history, but not enough to make it a bad story. Men are the heroes as well as the villains in this book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gate_to_Women's_Country#Plot

Short summary is post-apocalyptic society, urban women are selecting from "wild" bands of male societies, traits they want, while making these wild men think they are the father's of sons they really aren't. The "test" comes when a son is sent back to his father as a boy and must freely choose to return to Women's Country, against a large amount of pressure not to from his "father".

_The secret of Women's Country is that the council has been engaged in a selective breeding program with the population, using select servitors to propagate desirable traits through artificial insemination amongst select women; additionally selective sterilization has been used among the women. _

They could never get away with this if paternity tests were available to the wild bands of men. Women control all the advanced tech in this society.


----------



## MEM2020

Cletus,

My friend - you are by all standards of conduct - a very good person who for a variety of reasons made one (1) single (1) bad misstep (singular not plural) which caused an emotional reaction equivalent to the physical response to touching a hot iron. 

You don't just clear the - very high 'son in law bar' - you clear it by a good margin. 

You are very kind to your wife - regarding her limitations. That is no small thing. 

Everyone betrays their spouse during the course of a long marriage. The form of that betrayal varies - and it is often not intentional - but everyone does it. 

I am fairly convinced that if you removed my mod status - and I created a totally - brutally - candid thread about MY contribution to M2 falling in love with Dan - two things would happen:
- Many folks would be livid with me for undermining their core belief that cheating is ALWAYS totally the cheaters fault. A thesis I vehemently disagree with.
- Those same folks would accuse me of having an acute case of doormatism.







Cletus said:


> So, folks, in the context of scumbags, I already had a vasectomy and I used a condom. So I don't really think any notion of propagation had much to do with it, really.


----------



## larry.gray

Cletus said:


> So, folks, in the context of scumbags, I already had a vasectomy and I used a condom. So I don't really think any notion of propagation had much to do with it, really.


We're testing the veracity of you claim of indifference to thread-jacking.


----------



## 225985

sapientia said:


> Okay, I stand corrected. I forgot how easy it is for non-experts to actually google stuff these days. I used to teach genetics to first year med students, and I trained in a molecular/immunogenetics lab, did you really want me to go into a lecture about OCA and HERC genes here? I posted about *mutations* being a possible exception. Did you actually understand the article you posted?
> 
> _*So someone with only broken HERC2 genes will have blue eyes no matter what OCA2 says.* This is because the working OCA2 can't be turned on so no pigment gets made._
> 
> This^ is an example of a mutation. So yes, while it's possible for 2 blue eyed parents to have a brown eyed child, it's rather rare compared to the expected blue-blue cross leading to blue-eyed offspring.
> 
> _"*Although not common, two blue-eyed parents can produce children with brown eyes*," says Richard A. Sturm, a Principal Research Fellow at the Institute for Molecular Bioscience at the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia._
> 
> Blue Eyes - a clue to paternity https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/10/061023193617.htm
> 
> Hope that helps. Sigh.


:| You posted something inaccurate that could be misunderstood by another TAM reader. I did not want someone reading this with blue eyes that had a brown eyed kid to think their blue eyed spouse was cheating. Maybe they are, maybe not. 

I too have multiple graduate degrees and taught at college level. So what. It does not make me error free or smarter than anyone else here. If and when I post something wrong and a poster points out my error, I either say thanks for the correction or ignore it, not make it into a pissing match. 

I probably should have gone about this differently so as to not make you upset. I just now remembered you were the one that googled all the articles about the cost of bath water to disagree with what I had posted. 

And yes, google is a great tool.


----------



## Ceegee

MEM11363 said:


> - Many folks would be livid with me for undermining their core belief that cheating is ALWAYS totally the cheaters fault. A thesis I vehemently disagree with.
> 
> 
> - Those same folks would accuse me of having an acute case of doormatism.



Would "they" be wrong in both/either instance?

If so, why?





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## wild jade

sapientia said:


> Genes and offspring are biological concerns. I'm much better at keeping those arguments straight. The pysch argument is going to be messy, since it's going to be very subjective. I'm not going to go there, having already said my piece on that, but I'd be amused to watch you try if you wish.


 ????? I'm sorry but if we're still talking about reactions to cheating then we are talking psychology. Aren't we? 

I'm pretty sure my genes don't give a damn about anything. Offspring is much more than biological. Necessarily.

I have no real argument here. Just that biology doesn't give a rat's ass who sleeps with who or what types of relationship they are in. It's completely separate.


----------



## wild jade

Cletus said:


> So, folks, in the context of scumbags, I already had a vasectomy and I used a condom. So I don't really think any notion of propagation had much to do with it, really.


Exactly. Propagation and cheating have no necessary relationship whatsoever.


----------



## wild jade

sapientia said:


> You need to decide what your thesis is and stick to it, at least for a little while. You are all over the place with your ideas.


All I'm saying is that this whole parental investment vs risk stuff hinges on an assumption which is as far as I can see totally false. 

Makes no sense whatsoever to say that men face gene death when a woman cheats unless you also agree that he will not only never impregnate his wife, but he will also never impregnate anyone else.

And it makes no sense to say a woman faces gene death if her husband cheats unless you make all sorts of assumptions about the kid not being able to survive without his resources. Which is patently false.


----------



## wild jade

Kivlor said:


> If a woman cheats while her husband remains faithful to the relationship, she risks her husband being removed from the gene pool. Gene death.


Only if she refuses to have a child with him. But guess what? She can cheat on him, and still bear his children. 

Or, she can be like me and not have children with anyone. I guess that means I've inflicted gene death on both of us?

No. If he wants a kid, he can go find another woman.


----------



## wild jade

Kivlor said:


> Ok, you're really all over the place, which is what's causing me frustration here.
> 
> My original post, and all subsequent posts were in response to your comment about cheating, and how we judge women cheating differently than we do men.
> 
> Cheating requires a monogamous relationship. If you're not in a monogamous relationship, and ****ting it up, then you're not cheating.
> 
> So I'm lost. I get the feeling you're arguing to argue, rather than to explain / defend / test a position.


And all of my posts on this topic were to explain why I disagree with your position.

But really, I don't care if you agree or even understand my POV. So I'll end it here.


----------



## wild jade

MEM11363 said:


> Cletus,
> 
> My friend - you are by all standards of conduct - a very good person who for a variety of reasons made one (1) single (1) bad misstep (singular not plural) which caused an emotional reaction equivalent to the physical response to touching a hot iron.
> 
> You don't just clear the - very high 'son in law bar' - you clear it by a good margin.
> 
> You are very kind to your wife - regarding her limitations. That is no small thing.
> 
> Everyone betrays their spouse during the course of a long marriage. The form of that betrayal varies - and it is often not intentional - but everyone does it.
> 
> I am fairly convinced that if you removed my mod status - and I created a totally - brutally - candid thread about MY contribution to M2 falling in love with Dan - two things would happen:
> - Many folks would be livid with me for undermining their core belief that cheating is ALWAYS totally the cheaters fault. A thesis I vehemently disagree with.
> - Those same folks would accuse me of having an acute case of doormatism.


Wow. You believe you contributed to her affair? Interesting!

Am I allowed to ask how so?

I think one reason I find myself so strongly convinced that infidelity would be a complete dealbreaker is that I truly believe I treat my hubby like a king.


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> Wow. You believe you contributed to her affair? Interesting!
> 
> Am I allowed to ask how so?
> 
> I think one reason I find myself so strongly convinced that infidelity would be a complete dealbreaker is that I truly believe I treat my hubby like a king.


I am sure you do. Not all affairs have anything to do with how the BS has treated their spouse. I don't think serial cheating or same sex cheating have anything to do with the BS, for example. But some other affairs do.


----------



## farsidejunky

Cletus said:


> So, folks, in the context of scumbags, I already had a vasectomy and I used a condom. So I don't really think any notion of propagation had much to do with it, really.


So...

If I didn't think you were a scumbag before, the flippant nature of this post seals it...

:rofl:


----------



## sapientia

blueinbr said:


> sapientia said:
> 
> 
> 
> Okay, I stand corrected. I forgot how easy it is for non-experts to actually google stuff these days. I used to teach genetics to first year med students, and I trained in a molecular/immunogenetics lab, did you really want me to go into a lecture about OCA and HERC genes here? I posted about *mutations* being a possible exception. Did you actually understand the article you posted?
> 
> _*So someone with only broken HERC2 genes will have blue eyes no matter what OCA2 says.* This is because the working OCA2 can't be turned on so no pigment gets made._
> 
> This^ is an example of a mutation. So yes, while it's possible for 2 blue eyed parents to have a brown eyed child, it's rather rare compared to the expected blue-blue cross leading to blue-eyed offspring.
> 
> _"*Although not common, two blue-eyed parents can produce children with brown eyes*," says Richard A. Sturm, a Principal Research Fellow at the Institute for Molecular Bioscience at the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia._
> 
> Blue Eyes - a clue to paternity https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/10/061023193617.htm
> 
> Hope that helps. Sigh.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You posted something inaccurate that could be misunderstood by another TAM reader. I did not want someone reading this with blue eyes that had a brown eyed kid to think their blue eyed spouse was cheating. Maybe they are, maybe not.
> 
> I too have multiple graduate degrees and taught at college level. So what. It does not make me error free or smarter than anyone else here. If and when I post something wrong and a poster points out my error, I either say thanks for the correction or ignore it, not make it into a pissing match.
> 
> I probably should have gone about this differently so as to not make you upset. I just now remembered you were the one that googled all the articles about the cost of bath water to disagree with what I had posted.
> 
> And yes, google is a great tool.
Click to expand...

Here is my original post on the topic.



> No, sorry, it doesn't work that way for eye colour. A brown-brown cross can have a blue-eyed child, but two blues never equal brown, *except in a very rare instance of some kind of mutation.*


Do you understand what is bolded here means? I suspect not, but yes, it includes the case where two blue-eyed parents could have a brown eyed child through mutation of HERC. I mentioned the exception in my first post without going into gory detail about epistasis since it really wasn't material to the discussion. >99% of blue-blue crosses will give blue (or sometimes grey or green, but only rarely brown) offspring. YOU are actually attempting to mislead people that they shouldn't be concerned if two blue eyed parents have a brown-eyed child. Chances are actually very high there is some funny business going on, although yes, there is also a rare chance it is due to a mutation. But I already said that in my original post, didn't I?

You didn't understand my original post and you didn't understand the article you googled either. What you did was see the word "never" and charged off to search for an exception with google. You selectively read my post, ignoring my "except for rare mutation", in your quest to try to "prove" me wrong. Maybe because its the only thing you won today, or maybe because you felt you needed to get back at me for some earlier post I corrected you on that I can't even remember. Something about bath water? Obviously I made more of an impression on you than the converse, since I don't even recall the exchange.

Anyway, I'm happy to thank people for a correction or provide new info. *IF* they actually do so and with kind intention, not to try to score some point.


----------



## larry.gray

Shall we go back on topic?



Cletus said:


> Confessed.


Less sumbag there but somewhat bad because of the below.



Cletus said:


> Yes. There wasn't that much too it, really. It had gone on for all of maybe two or three weeks with a single physical event


A scumbag would have kept going.



Cletus said:


> I thought I had contracted an STD, even though I had used condoms. I had to explain why I was avoiding her in the bedroom while awaiting test results since I was not going to pass on something.


A scumbag would have forgone the condom. Although i'm presuming no oral barrier and since no oral is one of your issues you went there...

A scumbag would have thrown caution to the wind and kept at it with both women putting both at risk. You showed consideration for your wife's health. Or maybe you weren't so fogged up that you knew STD symptoms would be checked out and you'd be busted.



Cletus said:


> And yes, I would have taken it to the grave otherwise.


I'm on the fence on that. I'm all for busting cheaters, but for a ONS, no false paternity and no STD, silence *may* be the better route.




Cletus said:


> No. I explained why I did what I did, which was what I have outlined here.


A scumbag gaslights. You did not.



Cletus said:


> When it comes up with her, which is rare these days, the only thing I feel is remorse. That's when the twinge of conscience pricks the hardest - when the person you betrayed is right next to you.
> 
> Alone, in my personal thoughts, I wouldn't say justified is the other emotion I experience. I would have to say a feeling of having been cheated out of something - I did what was asked of me, I proved my worth as a potential mate, I allowed her to set the tone of our sexual relationship from abstinence before marriage to activity within. And for what? For the cruel joke of finding out we were never compatible to begin with and should probably have never gotten married.
> 
> But no, not justified for going outside of my marriage.


A scumbag blameshifts. You did not. In spite if the ongoing harm to you from your wife's issues.



Cletus said:


> There is nothing that I deny my spouse sexually, before or since.


That's a forgone conclusion since your wife is the uptight one.

––-------

Most if the answers were close to what I expected. 

Many (but definitely not all) of those slandered by the moniker "scumbag" have done the bad things you did not. I think the gender bias perception hits because we have so many betrayed men with henious stories.

I haven't heard a woman here who caught HPV or HSV because of an affair. I'm not saying they're not here, but I don't recall it. I do from multiple men here.

We have a man here, active, who is raising OM's kid, with no kids of his own biology. I've never heard if that here. I do know IRL a guy who cheated and has 50% custody of the affair child. They are together, but more rugswept than reconciled. I call him a total scumbag.


----------



## larry.gray

On the tangential topic.

I know for certainty, beyond possible that #2 and #5 are mine. Conception happened on vacation. They were planned and I'm very much cycle aware. (PMS can do that, plus fertility awareness due to planned pregnancy.)

#3 and #4 would be darn near impossible. Just too hard to pull off an affair at the time.

#1 was concieved while my wife was a college student. Plausible but it would have been a race of swimmers with frequently added entries in the race.

If I *ever* had a sign like eye color, hair color or blood type, I damn well would test. Those things may go wonky with a bad gene, it does happen. But when things don't line up, misatributed paternity is the more likely result.


----------



## MEM2020

Wild Jade,

This is a fair question. So - tomorrow - after a good nights sleep - I will answer it. For now - all I will say is this.

I did not intentionally leave M2 in an impossible situation. My intentions were - not - malicious. 

Soon I will answer, fully, honestly and truthfully. 




wild jade said:


> Wow. You believe you contributed to her affair? Interesting!
> 
> Am I allowed to ask how so?
> 
> I think one reason I find myself so strongly convinced that infidelity would be a complete dealbreaker is that I truly believe I treat my hubby like a king.


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> I'm on the fence on that. I'm all for busting cheaters, but for a ONS, no false paternity and no STD, silence *may* be the better route.


If your wife had a ONS, no false paternity and no STD, would you want her to stay silent on it?


----------



## 2ntnuf

MEM11363 said:


> Cletus,
> 
> My friend - you are by all standards of conduct - a very good person who for a variety of reasons made one (1) single (1) bad misstep (singular not plural) which caused an emotional reaction equivalent to the physical response to touching a hot iron.
> 
> You don't just clear the - very high 'son in law bar' - you clear it by a good margin.
> 
> You are very kind to your wife - regarding her limitations. That is no small thing.
> 
> Everyone betrays their spouse during the course of a long marriage. The form of that betrayal varies - and it is often not intentional - but everyone does it.
> 
> I am fairly convinced that if you removed my mod status - and I created a totally - brutally - candid thread about MY contribution to M2 falling in love with Dan - two things would happen:
> - Many folks would be livid with me for undermining their core belief that cheating is ALWAYS totally the cheaters fault. A thesis I vehemently disagree with.
> - Those same folks would accuse me of having an acute case of doormatism.


Sock puppets are regularly created here by well meaning members who find a need to harass others. Why don't you create one and do it?

Alternately, you can have a son or a friend join and type it up in their own words so you won't be suspected. This would give you the opportunity to tell everyone why you personally believe that you forced M2 to cheat and how she likely never would have thought of it if she didn't marry you.


----------



## wild jade

larry.gray said:


> I'm on the fence on that. I'm all for busting cheaters, but for a ONS, no false paternity and no STD, silence *may* be the better route.


Personally, I'd put this one into scumbag territory. 

Silence is absolutely the better route for saving your own skin and keeping the peace. It's also the better route for making sure your partner still thinks the world of you and treats you fine, while you pretend like nothing has ever happened. It's the best route for pulling the wool over your spouse's eyes and making sure you don't have to deal with the issue head on.

It's a weasel move, IMHO. For cowards who can't own their own sh!t.


----------



## larry.gray

jld said:


> If your wife had a ONS, no false paternity and no STD, would you want her to stay silent on it?


In our dynamic, it would be the smart choice for her. She's very reluctant toadmit fault and would make reconciliation impossible. As an example, the apology I made upthread would never be made by her. Even a ONS would not be forgivable for a person who can't work through it.


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> In our dynamic, it would be the smart choice for her. She's very reluctant toadmit fault and would make reconciliation impossible. As an example, the apology I made upthread would never be made by her. Even a ONS would not be forgivable for a person who can't work through it.


You would be okay with her concealing it from you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Wazza

larry.gray said:


> In our dynamic, it would be the smart choice for her. She's very reluctant toadmit fault and would make reconciliation impossible. As an example, the apology I made upthread would never be made by her. Even a ONS would not be forgivable for a person who can't work through it.


Would she want you to stay silent?


----------



## MEM2020

And down from the sky with a bright flash of light and sharp crack of thunder came Yaweh. And he wrapped himself in numerous screen names including 2ntnuf - and through these screen names - he berated MEM for sowing confusion amongst Yaweh's followers. 

But MEM was undeterred - because - he knew he was being tested. 




2ntnuf said:


> Sock puppets are regularly created here by well meaning members who find a need to harass others. Why don't you create one and do it?
> 
> Alternately, you can have a son or a friend join and type it up in their own words so you won't be suspected. This would give you the opportunity to tell everyone why you personally believe that you forced M2 to cheat and how she likely never would have thought of it if she didn't marry you.


----------



## Wazza

wild jade said:


> Wow. You believe you contributed to her affair? Interesting!
> 
> Am I allowed to ask how so?
> 
> I think one reason I find myself so strongly convinced that infidelity would be a complete dealbreaker is that I truly believe I treat my hubby like a king.


if it occurs (and hopefully it never will) have a good look at the circumstances before making such a judgement. 

I expect you do great hubby like a king, by your standards. The question is whether you do so by his standards. If there is a hole in the relationship that you don't see (because it is about something you don't want but your husband does) that's a danger point. 

For example, Cletus's wife possibly cannot understand the impact their sexual situation has on him, because she simply doesn't feel the need he has to subdue. If she did, the problem wouldn't exist.


----------



## larry.gray

wild jade said:


> Personally, I'd put this one into scumbag territory.
> 
> Silence is absolutely the better route for saving your own skin and keeping the peace. It's also the better route for making sure your partner still thinks the world of you and treats you fine, while you pretend like nothing has ever happened. It's the best route for pulling the wool over your spouse's eyes and making sure you don't have to deal with the issue head on.
> 
> It's a weasel move, IMHO. For cowards who can't own their own sh!t.


There is a reason I put emphasis on the may. I certainly wont take the position that you are wrong by any means.

I'm looking at this for the lesser of evils position. It blows up a family, even if reconciliation happens. Ignorance can be bliss.

All if this goes out the window if suspicions arise. Gaslighting is a scumbag move.


----------



## wild jade

Wazza said:


> if it occurs (and hopefully it never will) have a good look at the circumstances before making such a judgement.
> 
> I expect you do great hubby like a king, by your standards. The question is whether you do so by his standards. If there is a hole in the relationship that you don't see (because it is about something you don't want but your husband does) that's a danger point.
> 
> For example, Cletus's wife possibly cannot understand the impact their sexual situation has on him, because she simply doesn't feel the need he has to subdue. If she did, the problem wouldn't exist.


I should be okay then. He regularly tells me how lucky he is. And the reason I think I treat him like a king is because this is what he tells me. Otherwise, I actually don't think I do anything all that special. LOL


----------



## wild jade

larry.gray said:


> There is a reason I put emphasis on the may. I certainly wont take the position that you are wrong by any means.
> 
> I'm looking at this for the lesser of evils position. It blows up a family, even if reconciliation happens. *Ignorance can be bliss.*
> 
> All if this goes out the window if suspicions arise. Gaslighting is a scumbag move.


Funny. I just said more or less the same thing on another thread with respect to paternity issues and got blasted for it.

Ignorance is blissful for some people maybe. But apparently a very deep fear for others.


----------



## LosingHim

Honestly? Had my husband had a ONS, a lapse of judgement, whatever you want to call it.....cut all contact, learned from it and vowed to himself never to do it again and recommitted himself to the relationship in a better way - I wouldn't want to know. 

However, if suspicions arise, then yes please be honest. 

Outside of that, if I'm blissfully ignorant, all while knowing human beings are fallible and capable of falling to temptation, let me be blissfully ignorant. Because once you know, you can UNknow. And you'll carry that pain for the rest of your life.

Is it selfish? Hell yes. Does it make you a scumbag IN THE MOMENT? Hell yes. But to me, it's not a deal breaker. So just let me be ignorant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## wild jade

Really? I like my eyes wide open personally. Otherwise would feel like I was being played for the fool.


----------



## LosingHim

wild jade said:


> Really? I like my eyes wide open personally. Otherwise would feel like I was being played for the fool.


Have you ever been cheated on? I have. 10 year EA that I have strong suspicions went physical. I had what equated to a ONS. 

The pain from both is awful.

Laying on my death bed....if I found out he had a ONS 30+ years before, learned from it and never did it again.....I think I'd die in a lot more peace than the 10+ years I've been dealing with the mind movies, unanswered questions, insecurities that have arisen and the arguments with myself I have every day.

Long term affair would be different. But I am also much more forgiving than most.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

I would want to know, too. And then try to fill the void that made him seek it out.


----------



## LosingHim

jld said:


> I would want to know, too. And then try to fill the void that made him seek it out.


Sometimes it's not a void. Sometimes people just succumb to the fact that they have an over active penis or vagina. I'm not saying in the case of a long, drawn out affair. I'm saying in the case of a one time thing. It in no way excuses it or makes it ok. It just means they were fallible one time. 

I'm not saying that's what I was or why I did what I did or anything like that. I'm saying that's how *I* would view it if it were my husband, my life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

LosingHim said:


> Sometimes it's not a void. Sometimes people just succumb to the fact that they have an over active penis or vagina. I'm not saying in the case of a long, drawn out affair. I'm saying in the case of a one time thing. It in no way excuses it or makes it ok. It just means they were fallible one time.
> 
> I'm not saying that's what I was or why I did what I did or anything like that. I'm saying that's how *I* would view it if it were my husband, my life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It is certainly possible there may not be anything I could do differently to help. But if there were something I could do, I would do it.

This is all with the assumption that we both wanted to stay together after finding out.

Wow, a long drawn out affair would be something. Then it is like a parallel marriage.


----------



## jld

Cletus, did you and your ex know it would be just a ONS? Was there any thought on either of your parts of continuing it?


----------



## 2ntnuf

MEM11363 said:


> And down from the sky with a bright flash of light and sharp crack of thunder came Yaweh. And he wrapped himself in numerous screen names including 2ntnuf - and through these screen names - he berated MEM for sowing confusion amongst Yaweh's followers.
> 
> But MEM was undeterred - because - he knew he was being tested.


2 Cor 2:15-16 (Phi) We Christians have the unmistakable "scent" of Christ, discernible alike to those who are being saved and to those who are heading for death. To the latter it seems like the deathly smell of doom, to the former it has the refreshing fragrance of life itself. 

Prov 24:24-25 (NIV) Whoever says to the guilty, "you are innocent"--peoples will curse him and nations denounce him. But it will go well with those who convict the guilty, and rich blessing will come upon them.

Jer 6:15 (NIV) "Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush... "


I'm not worthy to loosen His sandals.


----------



## MEM2020

2nt,
You are far more fluent than I where scripture is concerned. 

Let me try to do this justice. And please recognize that this is entirely sincere. While some readers may be angered by what I say, truly my goal is to say what is true for me, not to antagonize others. 

M2 told me a year after we hired Dan - that - she had gone to speak to her priest - about how tempted she was.

Despite repeatedly seeing the intense (never seen anything like it before or since with M2) chemistry they had, my only response: I trust you.

So what is that really? Trust in her? In us? Or in me? 

Ultimately it was pride. I didn't believe anyone could actually be a better partner for M2 than me. 

So - yes - certain that I was maritally bullet proof - I ignored warning after warning. To be precise - M2 didn't betray me by sleeping with him. She simply reached a point where she wanted him so much that she attempted to get me to divorce her - by being difficult. 

Which was an epic fail. Had she simply said: I'm in love with Dan, but have no grounds to divorce you - so I need you to divorce me....

I would have given her a divorce AND facilitated an annulment. I would have told friends and family we had irreconcilable differences. 







2ntnuf said:


> 2 Cor 2:15-16 (Phi) We Christians have the unmistakable "scent" of Christ, discernible alike to those who are being saved and to those who are heading for death. To the latter it seems like the deathly smell of doom, to the former it has the refreshing fragrance of life itself.
> 
> Prov 24:24-25 (NIV) Whoever says to the guilty, "you are innocent"--peoples will curse him and nations denounce him. But it will go well with those who convict the guilty, and rich blessing will come upon them.
> 
> Jer 6:15 (NIV) "Are they ashamed of their loathsome conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush... "
> 
> 
> I'm not worthy to loosen His sandals.


----------



## sapientia

@MEM11363, would you have done anything differently, knowing what you know now? Assuming your W actions weren't any different?

I know how I would answer, hypothetically (not having lived your situation), but I don't want to bias your answer.


----------



## MEM2020

YES

I would have said: Babe, we ought to sell the business - at a loss if need be - before you lose your mind to frustration. 

And - had I not been so prideful - I would have generally been better able to be helpful to her. 





sapientia said:


> @MEM11363, would you have done anything differently, knowing what you know now? Assuming your W actions weren't any different?
> 
> I know how I would answer, hypothetically (not having lived your situation), but I don't want to bias your answer.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> YES
> 
> I would have said: Babe, we ought to sell the business - at a loss if need be - before you lose your mind to frustration.
> 
> *And - had I not been so prideful - I would have generally been better able to be helpful to her*.


MEM, could you elaborate on the bolded, please?


----------



## MEM2020

Sure

I would have said: 

If the situation was reversed - I would not want to be in daily proximity to someone I found intensely attractive for an open ended period of time. 

And 

If anything ends up happening - you will feel worse about it than I will. 








jld said:


> MEM, could you elaborate on the bolded, please?


----------



## sapientia

MEM11363 said:


> YES
> 
> I would have said: Babe, we ought to sell the business - at a loss if need be - before you lose your mind to frustration.
> 
> And - had I not been so prideful - I would have generally been better able to be helpful to her.


Interesting. I'm not sure I would have done anything differently from what you actually did. Having pride and trust in your marriage is a good thing, IMO.

Your wife chose poorly in how she communicated with you, and was herself perhaps too prideful to tell you how desperate she was becoming. Unless you are saying she really did try to discuss issues, many times, and you just weren't listening? If so, well, lessons learned all around -- no judgement from me.

I agree, mental capacity has a big effect. In my case, my ex and I were so busy with our work, that neither of us really had the energy to deal with our problems in a coordinated way. The sad thing is we had the energy to argue non-productively. Over the years, this takes a toll on the relationship, for sure. But it would have been foolish for either of us to give up our careers, since our present happiness with new partners is somewhat dependent on that success.

As I get older, I'm coming to believe that a lot of relationship success isn't just "fit" with ones partner re: values, etc. A lot of it is just about timing. Great people can still be the wrong answer for each other if the timing around career goals and such isn't right.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I believe that is a sincere post, MEM. 

It says quite a bit. And, it says you don't know the pain of infidelity. You know the pain of rejection.


----------



## MEM2020

I don't get why I'm blameless. 

If he had kissed her - they would have slept together. She told me that - when she voluntarily confessed to the whole 'trying to get you to divorce me' routine. 

What if they had slept together. How would that have made me blameless?

As far as comparative pain goes - I'm not competing with anyone on that score. 

The year after we sold the business - she fell back in love with me. That was nice. 




2ntnuf said:


> I believe that is a sincere post, MEM.
> 
> It says quite a bit. And, it says you don't know the pain of infidelity. You know the pain of rejection.


----------



## sapientia

??? None of us are blameless, MEM. S/he who hasn't made mistakes hasn't lived... right?


----------



## larry.gray

wild jade said:


> Funny. I just said more or less the same thing on another thread with respect to paternity issues and got blasted for it.
> 
> Ignorance is blissful for some people maybe. But apparently a very deep fear for others.


But what we keep trying to say is paternity issues ARE a HUGE deal. You can argue they're not, but until you have a son with children, it isn't applicable to you.

Further, paternity can be discovered essentially at any point, even long after you're dead. Consider Thomas Jefferson's love child with his domestic slave, found 200 years later.


----------



## larry.gray

Wazza said:


> Would she want you to stay silent?


I don't know, and that's a dangerous question. Ask it and you sow the suspicion it isn't a hypothetical question. I'm not taking the risk.


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> I don't know, and that's a dangerous question. Ask it and you sow the suspicion it isn't a hypothetical question. I'm not taking the risk.


That's where a board game that asks deep questions can come in handy.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> That's where a board game that asks deep questions can come in handy.


Cards Against Humanity sounds good...


----------



## sapientia

john117 said:


> Cards Against Humanity sounds good...


The Marriage Therapy version. Hmmm. That could be great, or really ugly.

Of course. We could hold weekend versions of this a la these stupid Pokemon Gyms. People could charge us a couple hundred bucks to buy-in and figure out if their marriage is really going to make it. Cheaper than therapy.


----------



## LosingHim

larry.gray said:


> I don't know, and that's a dangerous question. Ask it and you sow the suspicion it isn't a hypothetical question. I'm not taking the risk.


I told my husband early on that should he physically cheat on me one time, I know he is human and therefore not perfect and may at some point fall to temptation. And in that I would forgive him - although he should know that I would obviously be very hurt and disappointed, etc.

But that if he did it 2 times - I'd cut off his balls and shove them down his throat.

Unfortunately, that's not what happened in my marriage, he cheated on me emotionally - which I consider more painful AND I knew about it. I just didn't know it had a name and I thought *I* was weird for getting so upset about it through the years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sapientia

Interesting. I would never give my H carte blanche on cheating, not even once, not even in theory. It's not even so much the idea of my cheating or being cheated on. I just wouldn't disrespect our relationship to put that out there as even a possibility. Mutually agreed upon breakup first, would be on the table.

What we did discuss was our respective thoughts on cheating--deal breakers, for both of us. We also agreed that if either of us ever considered cheating, we would at least tell our partner. To respect our partner and past relationship enough to at least give us a chance to either address whatever the issue was or discuss ending the marriage, if it came to that. We each agreed that, should the worst happen and either of us really wanted to be with someone else, that we would respect the other's wishes and divorce amicably before resorting to cheating.

It was a hard conversation, even for a loving couple, no question.


----------



## LosingHim

sapientia said:


> Interesting. I would never give my H carte blanche on cheating, not even once.
> 
> What we did discuss was our respective thoughts on cheating--deal breakers, for both of us. We also agreed that if either of us ever considered cheating, we would at least tell our partner. To respect our partner and past relationship enough to at least give us a chance to either address whatever the issue was or discuss ending the marriage, if it came to that.
> 
> It was a hard conversation, even for a loving couple, no question.


He knows he didn't have permission. That's not how the situation played out. It was more a chit chat discussion of someone else who had cheated. And I basically said something along the lines of "you know, I think human beings are pretty stupid. And with how sexualized we are as a culture, I think more people would fall victim to a one time thing than any of us would like to admit. In my case, if that happened with you, it would destroy me. And I would be incredibly hurt. But knowing that you are human, a man and fallible, I could forgive you once. But if you did it twice, I would cut your balls off and shove them down your throat - because at that point you're just making a choice to think with your d*ck and nothing else."

Of course, that's not verbatim, this was 10 years ago. But it was pretty close to that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## sapientia

sapientia said:


> The Marriage Therapy version. Hmmm. That could be great, or really ugly.
> 
> Of course. We could hold weekend versions of this a la these stupid Pokemon Gyms. People could charge us a couple hundred bucks to buy-in and figure out if their marriage is really going to make it. Cheaper than therapy.


Not even counting the side betting pool, which is where we would make the real money... 

>


----------



## 2ntnuf

MEM11363 said:


> I don't get why I'm blameless.


I never said you were blameless. 

Infidelity is a decision made through weakness and is usually made by the spouse interested in another. 



MEM11363 said:


> If he had kissed her - they would have slept together. She told me that - when she voluntarily confessed to the whole 'trying to get you to divorce me' routine.


Was she blaming Dan for her choices? 

Is it then possible to say that Dan controlled the depth of their relationship? 



MEM11363 said:


> What if they had slept together. How would that have made me blameless?


It doesn't. 

We are all responsible for our own actions. Your actions didn't make her do or feel the things she did for Dan. Her actions did not make you do the things you did. 

You each chose your paths. 



MEM11363 said:


> As far as comparative pain goes - I'm not competing with anyone on that score.


Your lack of empathy for those who were hurt badly shows. It's difficult to feel empathy when you haven't experienced the pain. It's not your fault. 



MEM11363 said:


> The year after we sold the business - she fell back in love with me. That was nice.


That's nice.


----------



## MEM2020

2nt,

Proving my point which is this: There is an Infidelity Cartel on TAM consisting of a group of folks who will fight with their last breath to paint these situations as binary. 

Your comment about empathy reminded me of another poster. 

This BS comes to TAM asking for help because her H had an intense four month physical affair with a woman he worked with and fell in love with her. 

The BS says: Throughout our marriage my H would complain loudly every month or so about sex. But in betweeen he was nice to me, took us on vacations - and was a great provider - so I figured everything was fine. 

Last year he said to me: Your sex life might be over, but mine isn't. 

I ignored that warning. 

At the point I discovered the affair we hadn't had sex for 4 months and I hadn't even noticed. (Her WS stopped sleeping with her as soon as he began the PA).

My take on this - she was VERY low empathy. 

His reaction was: I am sorry you are hurt, but Why are you surprised? I told you that my sex life wasn't over. What did you think that meant?

So now she's doing the hysterical bonding sex with him. Because she finally 'gets it' that she was really hurting him. 

And me - I don't believe that for a moment. She knew she was hurting him for the prior 20 years - but it didn't impact her. So she didn't care. 

THAT is low empathy. 





2ntnuf said:


> I never said you were blameless.
> 
> Infidelity is a decision made through weakness and is usually made by the spouse interested in another.
> 
> 
> 
> Was she blaming Dan for her choices?
> 
> Is it then possible to say that Dan controlled the depth of their relationship?
> 
> 
> 
> It doesn't.
> 
> We are all responsible for our own actions. Your actions didn't make her do or feel the things she did for Dan. Her actions did not make you do the things you did.
> 
> You each chose your paths.
> 
> 
> 
> Your lack of empathy for those who were hurt badly shows. It's difficult to feel empathy when you haven't experienced the pain. It's not your fault.
> 
> 
> 
> That's nice.


----------



## sapientia

@MEM11363 I was searching the forum boards for something else and came across this sticky that might be timely. For others, not you, to be clear:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-...hesis-read-understand-replies-your-posts.html


----------



## 2ntnuf

MEM11363 said:


> 2nt,
> 
> Proving my point which is this: There is an Infidelity Cartel on TAM consisting of a group of folks who will fight with their last breath to paint these situations as binary.
> 
> 
> Your comment about empathy reminded me of another poster.
> 
> This BS comes to TAM asking for help because her H had an intense four month physical affair with a woman he worked with and fell in love with her.
> 
> The BS says: Throughout our marriage my H would complain loudly every month or so about sex. But in betweeen he was nice to me, took us on vacations - and was a great provider - so I figured everything was fine.
> 
> Last year he said to me: Your sex life might be over, but mine isn't.
> 
> I ignored that warning.
> 
> At the point I discovered the affair we hadn't had sex for 4 months and I hadn't even noticed. (Her WS stopped sleeping with her as soon as he began the PA).
> 
> My take on this - she was VERY low empathy.
> 
> His reaction was: I am sorry you are hurt, but Why are you surprised? I told you that my sex life wasn't over. What did you think that meant?
> 
> So now she's doing the hysterical bonding sex with him. Because she finally 'gets it' that she was really hurting him.
> 
> And me - I don't believe that for a moment. She knew she was hurting him for the prior 20 years - but it didn't impact her. So she didn't care.
> 
> THAT is low empathy.


I hear you. You say it's her fault he was having sex with another woman. 

Seems as binary as what you accuse others of doing. 

The only thing that isn't binary is when each of us takes responsibility for our own actions, MEM. 

Then and only then can we start to look at ourselves and how we need to change. 

That doesn't mean divorce or reconcile. It means nothing about the marriage. 

It is the only thing we can control...ourselves.


----------



## sapientia

2ntnuf said:


> I hear you. You say it's her fault he was having sex with another woman.


Not only did he NOT say it, he didn't even imply it. I won't even ask you to point out where he used the word "fault", because I can see for myself he didn't.

Life isn't binary. Things do not happen in a vacuum, even terrible things. People make choices, hopefully understanding the risks involved, and then there are outcomes. Some are happier than others. Choosing NOT to act, when presented with clear information that some action might be a good idea, IS a choice, btw. MEM discussed this in an earlier post, very well, I thought.

Perhaps you are so invested in your stance on this topic you are no longer able to be even slightly objective about it? Are you really suggesting that MEM lacks empathy? Really, because I don't see it.

My conclusion from your most recent posts is you are choosing this deliberately skewed position about cheating, not because you even truly believe it reflects reality, but because this is protecting some deep-hidden part of your ego. You don't want to own that you had anything to do with being cheated on... but you know you did. It's clear in your posts. Why so angry if this isn't so?

You won't find peace on this topic until you accept this. People do sh!tty things; that's life. All you can do is be smarter about recognizing the signs and dealing with unacceptable behaviour better and sooner than you did before.


----------



## john117

2ntnuf said:


> I hear you. You say it's her fault he was having sex with another woman.
> 
> Seems as binary as what you accuse others of doing..


Is anyone going to blame me if I hit the Paducah Craigslist looking for an FWB? I don't think so Tim. 

To paraphrase the future First Gentleman, "it depends on what the definition of 'fault' is."

Think contributory negligence.


----------



## sapientia

Here is an interesting article about victim mentality. I see a lot of this on TAM, regarding the topic of cheaters. I thought the comment about someone with a victim mentality really being angry about feeling powerless, was insightful (especially for Huff post).

Do You Have 'Victim Mentality'? What To Do About It

I've noticed that the folks who are cheated on and immediately dump the cheater, and don't try to rationalize, seem to have a healthier recovery than those who were more passive about their situation.

Note I'm not calling out anyone in particular here, just making a general observation. So if you are personally POd, save your flaming and ask yourself "why so mad, bro"? Is it possibly true?

Happy navel gazing.


----------



## sapientia

john117 said:


> Think contributory negligence.


Exactly. Why is this concept so hard to grasp?

In french we have a saying 'chacun a son/sa gout'. Which roughly means, 'to each his/her own taste'.

I think we should instead say 'chacun a son/sa merde'.

To each his/her own sh!t. Own your own and let everyone else deal with theirs. Which might include the consequences of someone dumping your @ss if you cheat, or being dumped if you do it. Especially for the cheated upon, why continue to dwell on it? When I have a dump, I flush and it's gone. I don't continue to think about how nasty it was.

That is actually useful binary thinking, imo.

EDIT - thanks for the Thanks John. I realized when I re-read my post I said "cheater" instead of "cheated on". Big difference.


----------



## MattMatt

*Deidre* said:


> I do wonder though how people who get involved with married people, how do they process that in order to be involved with this person, that the person is lying to their spouse in order to be with you? That wouldn't make me feel very good, honestly. And if this person would lie to someone he/she took vows with, then lying to someone you're just sleeping with on the side, might be even easier. That saying 'if they'll do it with you, they'll do it to you,' is coming to mind.


But you are in love and you know that they love you and their love for you is a stronger, more pure love than the love they had with their spouse. Well, it is, isn't it?

Trust me. When the cheating on you in this context, does happen, you are blindsided and probably never saw the damn thing coming.


----------



## 2ntnuf

sapientia said:


> Not only did he NOT say it, *he didn't even imply it.* I won't even ask you to point out where he used the word "fault", because I can see for myself he didn't.
> 
> Life isn't binary. Things do not happen in a vacuum, even terrible things. People make choices, hopefully understanding the risks involved, and then there are outcomes. Some are happier than others. Choosing NOT to act, when presented with clear information that some action might be a good idea, IS a choice, btw. MEM discussed this in an earlier post, very well, I thought.
> 
> Perhaps you are so invested in your stance on this topic you are no longer able to be even slightly objective about it? Are you really suggesting that MEM lacks empathy? Really, because I don't see it.
> 
> My conclusion from your most recent posts is you are choosing this deliberately skewed position about cheating, not because you even truly believe it reflects reality, but because this is protecting some deep-hidden part of your ego. You don't want to own that you had anything to do with being cheated on... but you know you did. It's clear in your posts. Why so angry if this isn't so?
> 
> You won't find peace on this topic until you accept this. People do sh!tty things; that's life. All you can do is be smarter about recognizing the signs and dealing with unacceptable behaviour better and sooner than you did before.


I believe it is exactly what MEM implied. The description of a lack of empathy was the focus. 


I think my full post will help you to address what I posted with less assumption and disdain. 




2ntnuf said:


> I hear you. You say it's her fault he was having sex with another woman.
> 
> Seems as binary as what you accuse others of doing.
> 
> The only thing that isn't binary is when each of us takes responsibility for our own actions, MEM.
> 
> Then and only then can we start to look at ourselves and how we need to change.
> 
> That doesn't mean divorce or reconcile. It means nothing about the marriage.
> 
> It is the only thing we can control...ourselves.


You can only control yourself. 

Take responsibility for your own actions and don't blame them on others.

Look at yourself(used in general, not directed at you, Sap) and how you need to change.

The sentence immediately above will not change the situation you are in because of the choices you've(again, not directed at you, Sap, but meant in general) made.

I hope that helps. Don't internalize what I've posted. It wasn't meant to hurt you. In fact, it was meant to alleviate the need to blame anyone for choices others make. That decreases the need for anyone to feel guilty or angry, and frees them to make those decisions which will lead to a more fulfilling life.


----------



## sapientia

MattMatt said:


> But you are in love and you know that they love you and their love for you is a stronger, more pure love than the love they had with their spouse. Well, it is, isn't it?
> 
> Trust me. When the cheating on you in this context, does happen, you are blindsided and probably never saw the damn thing coming.


Are you being sarcastic? If not, I call BS. Unless you are either very young/naive, checked out/unavailable, or dating a really talented psychopath/NPD (in which case WHY did you ignore THOSE signs?), it's hard to believe there weren't some red flags. *Especially* if you got married. Take the time to really get to know someone before you marry them and you will uncover those red flags. Only married a short time after a short relationship? In that case, the problem was being in a hurry.

I just don't buy that *most* cheating doesn't come with some warning signs. Sorry.

IMO, the person on the road to wisdom posts something like

"Yes, I was foolish. Yes, there were warning signs. Yes, I chose to ignore them because I was:

- more interested in them being hot than loyal
- more interested in my job than paying attention to my partner
- more interested in my kids
- did some sh!t of my own to him/her that wasn't very nice
- young and dumb
- etc.

They cheated on me. I didn't deserve it, but I accept I did things that enabled it to happen. I broke up with them, learned my lesson, and life goes on."


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

MEM11363 said:


> 2nt,
> 
> Proving my point which is this: There is an Infidelity Cartel on TAM consisting of a group of folks who will fight with their last breath to paint these situations as binary.


LOL. There are multiple cartels on this board just as infamous. The one you mentioned is just the popular and easiest one to point out. +1 for using a new word instead of "mantra."


----------



## sapientia

2ntnuf said:


> I hope that helps. Don't internalize what I've posted. It wasn't meant to hurt you. In fact, it was meant to alleviate the need to blame anyone for choices others make. That decreases the need for anyone to feel guilty or angry, and frees them to make those decisions which will lead to a more fulfilling life.


Interesting. How did you control yourself, in your situation? I've forgotten, please remind me again, you WERE cheated on, correct? I'd like to understand a proactive example, not where you reacted to someone else's behaviour.

I wasn't cheated on, to be clear. Nor am I a cheater. I had enough self-control to put an end to an ugly situation before it ever got there (I think, 99% sure my ex didn't either). I did, however, put up with arguably far worse things, far longer than I should have. 

My lesson is well learned. I understand exactly what I did to contribute to the death of my first marriage. I used to subscribe to binary thinking when I was younger but I've evolved to understand it is a very juvenile way of viewing the world. Grey thinking is hard, but it more accurately describes the world and allows you to make future predictions about it. You can do it too, but you have to make the effort to stretch your brain if you want to grow.

You are correct that we only control ourselves. You state the words but you haven't internalized it. If you did, you wouldn't continue to rage about people doing things to you. You would realize YOU allowed them to do it to you.


----------



## MattMatt

sapientia said:


> Are you being sarcastic? If not, I call BS. Unless you are either very young/naive, checked out/unavailable, or dating a really talented psychopath/NPD (in which case WHY did you ignore THOSE signs?), it's hard to believe there weren't some red flags. *Especially* if you got married. Take the time to really get to know someone before you marry them and you will uncover those red flags. Only married a short time after a short relationship? In that case, the problem was being in a hurry.
> 
> I just don't buy that *most* cheating doesn't come with some warning signs. Sorry.
> 
> IMO, the person on the road to wisdom posts something like
> 
> "Yes, I was foolish. Yes, there were warning signs. Yes, I chose to ignore them because I was:
> 
> - more interested in them being hot than loyal
> - more interested in my job than paying attention to my partner
> - more interested in my kids
> - did some sh!t of my own to him/her that wasn't very nice
> - young and dumb
> - etc.
> 
> They cheated on me. I didn't deserve it, but I accept I did things that enabled it to happen. I broke up with them, learned my lesson, and life goes on."


Sarcastic? Hardly! Clearly you haven't read my story.

Because that was exactly what happened to me.

Run down by the Karma bus. Boom!

And my wife came to me and told me she was going to take a lover, but would come back to me. It was a former boyfriend just like in this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHULB63rmNk

So I was utterly blindsided.


----------



## MEM2020

Sapientia,

Yes - this is exactly what I'm saying. And (sad face) I also don't self perceive as 'low empathy' so thank you for saying that I am not coming across that way. 

I absolutely feel bad for folks who have been betrayed. My intention on this thread has been to highlight the very wide range of behavior that can be characterized as romantic betrayal. And to acknowledge that in my case - I was absolutely guilty of what John (and perhaps you?) would call contributory behavior/contributory negligence. 

I did expect a fair amount of pushback of various types because it is generally considered heresy on this board for a BS to openly acknowledge their contribution to the affair. 

In the example I gave, the WS was genuinely confused by his BS' reaction and repeatedly said he thought she no longer loved him and wouldn't especially care that much. He added that - the fact she didn't react AT ALL when he said her sex life might be over but his wasn't and then didn't even notice when they went four months without sex - reinforced those beliefs. 





sapientia said:


> Not only did he NOT say it, he didn't even imply it. I won't even ask you to point out where he used the word "fault", because I can see for myself he didn't.
> 
> Life isn't binary. Things do not happen in a vacuum, even terrible things. People make choices, hopefully understanding the risks involved, and then there are outcomes. Some are happier than others. Choosing NOT to act, when presented with clear information that some action might be a good idea, IS a choice, btw. MEM discussed this in an earlier post, very well, I thought.
> 
> Perhaps you are so invested in your stance on this topic you are no longer able to be even slightly objective about it? Are you really suggesting that MEM lacks empathy? Really, because I don't see it.
> 
> My conclusion from your most recent posts is you are choosing this deliberately skewed position about cheating, not because you even truly believe it reflects reality, but because this is protecting some deep-hidden part of your ego. You don't want to own that you had anything to do with being cheated on... but you know you did. It's clear in your posts. Why so angry if this isn't so?
> 
> You won't find peace on this topic until you accept this. People do sh!tty things; that's life. All you can do is be smarter about recognizing the signs and dealing with unacceptable behaviour better and sooner than you did before.


----------



## sapientia

MattMatt said:


> Sarcastic? Hardly! Clearly you haven't read my story.
> 
> Because that was exactly what happened to me.
> 
> Run down by the Karma bus. Boom!
> 
> *And my wife came to me and told me she was going to take a lover, but would come back to me. *It was a former boyfriend just like in this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHULB63rmNk
> 
> So I was utterly blindsided.


Matt, I guarantee I can find in your story examples of signs things were going, or could go, sideways but you chose to ignore.

Are you remarried? Or considering it? If so, is there anything you would do differently this time?

If that answer is "yes", then that is the thread to pull on what you didn't get right the first time. Speaking entirely from experience. Per my name, I'm still seeking wisdom, but my 20 year schooling gave me plenty out the other side. There is LOTS I'm doing differently, better, with my H this time.


----------



## MattMatt

sapientia said:


> Matt, I guarantee I can find in your story examples of signs things were going, or could go, sideways but you chose to ignore.
> 
> Are you remarried? Or considering it? If so, is there anything you would do differently this time?
> 
> If that answer is "yes", then that is the thread to pull on what you didn't get right the first time. Speaking entirely from experience. Per my name, I'm still seeking wisdom, but my 20 year schooling gave me plenty out the other side. There is LOTS I'm doing differently, better, with my H this time.


Because hindsight is always f**king 20/20, right?

And I am not sure you *could* find such signs, despite your claim.

In fact, we are still together. We never broke up, really.

Though we did have a re-commitment ceremony with new rings. Which was after my stupid and drunken RA.


----------



## Ceegee

MEM11363 said:


> 2nt,
> 
> Proving my point which is this: There is an Infidelity Cartel on TAM consisting of a group of folks who will fight with their last breath to paint these situations as binary.
> 
> Your comment about empathy reminded me of another poster.
> 
> This BS comes to TAM asking for help because her H had an intense four month physical affair with a woman he worked with and fell in love with her.
> 
> The BS says: Throughout our marriage my H would complain loudly every month or so about sex. But in betweeen he was nice to me, took us on vacations - and was a great provider - so I figured everything was fine.
> 
> Last year he said to me: Your sex life might be over, but mine isn't.
> 
> I ignored that warning.
> 
> At the point I discovered the affair we hadn't had sex for 4 months and I hadn't even noticed. (Her WS stopped sleeping with her as soon as he began the PA).
> 
> My take on this - she was VERY low empathy.
> 
> His reaction was: I am sorry you are hurt, but Why are you surprised? I told you that my sex life wasn't over. What did you think that meant?
> 
> So now she's doing the hysterical bonding sex with him. Because she finally 'gets it' that she was really hurting him.
> 
> And me - I don't believe that for a moment. She knew she was hurting him for the prior 20 years - but it didn't impact her. So she didn't care.
> 
> THAT is low empathy.




Ugh,

This is horsesh1t. 

I was that guy. 

4 months? I could have done that in my sleep. 

My XW had no empathy. In fact, she mocked me and my "sexual frustration". 

Difference is character and principles. 

Difference is I would never put my family through that. 

Difference is I would not let her or anyone else define me or force me to do something I believed to be wrong. 

You can choose to stay true to who you are. 

Or, you can choose your spot in the victim triangle (or chair or however you learned it) and rationalize whatever you want to. 

We are adults here. 

Signed - Member of the Infidelity Cartel 2012


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## blahfridge

No, cheating doesn't happen in a vacuum and, in hindsight, if most BS are honest, there were usually some warning signs. 

In my own case, I was shocked when my H admitted to cheating, but not completely surprised. In the next breath after he told me he cheated, he said it was basically my fault because I wasn't making myself available enough to him sexually. Our sex life had become sporadic at that point, I knew that and I knew he wasn't happy about it. But, there were a host of reasons as to why our marriage had gotten to that point. He was drinking heavily, his career was very stressful and he worked shift work, often on weekends and holidays. I was home with three small children with no help, often feeling like a single mom, especially at night when H was at work. My H has OCD and we fought about almost everything in the house - he didn't even want me to recycle the newspapers because he might want to save an article - and neither of us had good role models in our FOO for effective communication. Add to that, we both had some passive aggressive tendencies, but my H was extremely so, especially with women. 

So during those years, is it a surprise that our problems spilled into the bedroom? I hated being woken up in the middle of the night just for sex when I was exhausted from caring for the children. Add to that, I was breastfeeding and I had been through six pregnancies during those years. My body wasn't interested in sex very often. H, obviously, saw it differently. He simply got angry and would stomp out of the bedroom. I asked him to spend couple time with me so we could reconnect, but in his anger and hurt, he refused. I later found out that he had a porn addiction during this time and I believe that is what ultimately led him down the path to cheating. During the years he was cheating, I had no inkling. By the time I found out about it, the children were older, he and I had matured and worked through some of our issues, and our sex life had improved. I think he told me out of guilt because I was trying harder to provide him with a more regular sex life and things were better between us. 

Here is the thing...marriage is supposed to be forever, in good times and bad, and that includes times when your wife might not be so interested in sex, or perhaps it's the H because he is depressed, has an illness, whatever. Yes, my H let me know he wasn't happy about our sex life. Does that make me responsible for his cheating? He knew I wasn't happy about a lot of things too that were important to me, so if I had chose to cheat, would that make him responsible? We could have weathered those bad years fine, and we almost did until I found out about the cheating. Except that he couldn't handle being a little bit patient with me and taking a look at the big picture of our lives together. I used to say that my parents marriage was an inspiration to me, not because it was easy and they got along perfectly, but because they were so different and yet they worked through it and came out on the other side completely devoted to each other in there later years. Isn't that what marriage is supposed to be? I don't know anymore what I believe about marriage and relationships. But I do know that it sure isn't black and white as some here would have it be.


----------



## MEM2020

Amazing thing is how much a skilled MC helped me. 

Showed me that M2's behaviors that I found most troublesome - were mostly undertaken in an effort for her to feel less bad. That was her primary motive - feeling less bad. 




sapientia said:


> Matt, I guarantee I can find in your story examples of signs things were going, or could go, sideways but you chose to ignore.
> 
> Are you remarried? Or considering it? If so, is there anything you would do differently this time?
> 
> If that answer is "yes", then that is the thread to pull on what you didn't get right the first time. Speaking entirely from experience. Per my name, I'm still seeking wisdom, but my 20 year schooling gave me plenty out the other side. There is LOTS I'm doing differently, better, with my H this time.


----------



## MEM2020

Ceegee,

If you don't mind my asking, did your exW cheat on you? Did she initiate the divorce or did you?




Ceegee said:


> Ugh,
> 
> This is horsesh1t.
> 
> I was that guy.
> 
> 4 months? I could have done that in my sleep.
> 
> My XW had no empathy. In fact, she mocked me and my "sexual frustration".
> 
> Difference is character and principles.
> 
> Difference is I would never put my family through that.
> 
> Difference is I would not let her or anyone else define me or force me to do something I believed to be wrong.
> 
> You can choose to stay true to who you are.
> 
> Or, you can choose your spot in the victim triangle (or chair or however you learned it) and rationalize whatever you want to.
> 
> We are adults here.
> 
> Signed - Member of the Infidelity Cartel 2012
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Personal

MEM11363 said:


> I absolutely feel bad for folks who have been betrayed. My intention on this thread has been to highlight the very wide range of behavior that can be characterized as romantic betrayal. And to acknowledge that in my case - I was absolutely guilty of what John (and perhaps you?) would call contributory behavior/contributory negligence.


Well you shouldn't feel sorry for me.

I was physically sexually cheated on in my first marriage, her infidelity saw the swift end of that marriage.

Despite the pain that this caused at the time (my stomach felt like it had been turned upside down upon her confession) and I hated her for it. Yet with respect to me being a better partner in subsequent sexual relationships, it was one of the best things that had ever happened to me.

Since it was a catalyst for me to end a relationship that was ill-founded for all participants, it afforded me an opportunity to examine myself and my own behaviour. Likewise it afforded me the opportunity to understand what I accept and won't accept. While it also led me to consider what I care about and what I don't and to appreciate that life has a lot of grey in it.

In the end I decided to pick myself up, fix myself up, got over it and got on with life. To have done anything else would have been a significant waste.

Having said all of that I don't think cheating on someone sexually specifically makes them a scumbag at all. I also don't think anyone who has sex with a person who is cheating on a sexual partner is morally deficit when they are not cheating on anyone else themselves.


----------



## Ceegee

MEM11363 said:


> Ceegee,
> 
> 
> 
> If you don't mind my asking, did your exW cheat on you? Did she initiate the divorce or did you?




Don't mind at all. 

Yes, she cheated. 

Divorced me when I found out to avoid facing what she had done. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ceegee

MEM11363 said:


> Amazing thing is how much a skilled MC helped me.
> 
> 
> 
> Showed me that M2's behaviors that I found most troublesome - were mostly undertaken in an effort for her to feel less bad. That was her primary motive - feeling less bad.




This, I agree with. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sapientia

MattMatt said:


> Because hindsight is always f**king 20/20, right?
> 
> And I am not sure you *could* find such signs, despite your claim.
> 
> In fact, we are still together. We never broke up, really.
> 
> Though we did have a re-commitment ceremony with new rings. Which was after my stupid and drunken RA.


Your hindsight had better be *much more than f**king 20/20* or you are still doing it wrong.

To that point, ARE you doing anything differently now?


----------



## MEM2020

Ceegee,

You write in a clear and logical manner. Your posts make sense and your threads show your own conduct to be above reproach. You strike me as plenty smart. 

So riddle me this - as I am confused beyond measure...

You describe your exW:
- aesthetically as one of the most beautiful women you've ever met. 
and
- behaviorally as a selfish, insecure, needy, controlling partner who is at best a mediocre mother

And yet, at the back end of 14 years of a sexless (totally sexless for the final 4 or so years) marriage you repeatedly wrote that you are still in love with her. 

I looked and looked for any posts by you attributing attractive BEHAVIOR to her. Couldn't find any. What I found instead was a mountain of ugly stuff - mixed with disrespect and a total absence of attraction. 

What was it you were in love with? It's a sincere question. 




Ceegee said:


> Ugh,
> 
> This is horsesh1t.
> 
> I was that guy.
> 
> 4 months? I could have done that in my sleep.
> 
> My XW had no empathy. In fact, she mocked me and my "sexual frustration".
> 
> Difference is character and principles.
> 
> Difference is I would never put my family through that.
> 
> Difference is I would not let her or anyone else define me or force me to do something I believed to be wrong.
> 
> You can choose to stay true to who you are.
> 
> Or, you can choose your spot in the victim triangle (or chair or however you learned it) and rationalize whatever you want to.
> 
> We are adults here.
> 
> Signed - Member of the Infidelity Cartel 2012
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> Amazing thing is how much a skilled MC helped me.
> 
> Showed me that M2's behaviors that I found most troublesome - were mostly undertaken in an effort for her to feel less bad. That was her primary motive - feeling less bad.


What did you think the reason was?


----------



## john117

MEM11363 said:


> Ceegee,
> 
> You write in a clear and logical manner. Your posts make sense and your threads show your own conduct to be above reproach. You strike me as plenty smart.
> 
> So riddle me this - as I am confused beyond measure...
> 
> You describe your exW:
> - aesthetically as one of the most beautiful women you've ever met.
> and
> - behaviorally as a selfish, insecure, needy, controlling partner who is at best a mediocre mother
> 
> And yet, at the back end of 14 years of a sexless (totally sexless for the final 4 or so years) marriage you repeatedly wrote that you are still in love with her.
> 
> I looked and looked for any posts by you attributing attractive BEHAVIOR to her. Couldn't find any. What I found instead was a mountain of ugly stuff - mixed with disrespect and a total absence of attraction.
> 
> What was it you were in love with? It's a sincere question.


Sounds familiar...

We were / are in love with what was.... Remember the lyrics to my favorite song. 

https://play.google.com/music/previ...rch&utm_campaign=lyrics&pcampaignid=kp-lyrics


----------



## MEM2020

1. A perceived loss of control (over me, or a situation)
2. The need to compete/win in situations where being competitive was less effective than being collaborative
3. A desire for total synchronization 

(3) Would express itself via periodic bursts of resentment over me not converting to Catholicism. 

I took a LOT of this stuff very personally. Now I don't. M2 is also WAY more self aware now. So a gentle comment often produces a rapid resolution. 

That said - some of J2's behavior sounded 'similar' in kind, to what I experienced with M2 when I would inject my own negative emotional energy into the equation. 

It is also true - that in my own way - I was controlling. Not to the same degree but it was enough to be a factor in our dynamic. 





john117 said:


> What did you think the reason was?


----------



## sapientia

john117 said:


> Sounds familiar...
> 
> We were / are in love with what was.... Remember the lyrics to my favorite song.
> 
> https://play.google.com/music/previ...rch&utm_campaign=lyrics&pcampaignid=kp-lyrics


Well... aren't you full or surprises? 

Here's one that used to choke me up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrT0pixE2as


----------



## Wazza

larry.gray said:


> I don't know, and that's a dangerous question. Ask it and you sow the suspicion it isn't a hypothetical question. I'm not taking the risk.


Of course it's dangerous, you're playing Russian roulette more or less! By not asking the question, and taking the choice to not tell her, you answer the question for her. 

it might work out ok,or it might all blow up years or decades later. Bit of a high stakes gamble in my mind. You'd better be darn sure *she* would rather not know (as distinct from *you* preferring she didn't). It's hard enough rebuilding trust at all after something like that, but when your partner destroys the credibility of their word trying to hide things, it makes it much worse.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> 1. A perceived loss of control (over me, or a situation)
> 2. The need to compete/win in situations where being competitive was less effective than being collaborative
> 3. A desire for total synchronization
> 
> (3) Would express itself via periodic bursts of resentment over me not converting to Catholicism.
> 
> I took a LOT of this stuff very personally. Now I don't. M2 is also WAY more self aware now. So a gentle comment often produces a rapid resolution.
> 
> That said - some of J2's behavior sounded 'similar' in kind, to what I experienced with M2 when I would inject my own negative emotional energy into the equation.
> 
> *It is also true - that in my own way - I was controlling. Not to the same degree but it was enough to be a factor in our dynamic.*


Could you elaborate on the bolded, please?


----------



## jld

blahfridge said:


> No, cheating doesn't happen in a vacuum and, in hindsight, if most BS are honest, there were usually some warning signs.
> 
> In my own case, I was shocked when my H admitted to cheating, but not completely surprised. In the next breath after he told me he cheated, he said it was basically my fault because I wasn't making myself available enough to him sexually. Our sex life had become sporadic at that point, I knew that and I knew he wasn't happy about it. But, there were a host of reasons as to why our marriage had gotten to that point. He was drinking heavily, his career was very stressful and he worked shift work, often on weekends and holidays. I was home with three small children with no help, often feeling like a single mom, especially at night when H was at work. My H has OCD and we fought about almost everything in the house - he didn't even want me to recycle the newspapers because he might want to save an article - and neither of us had good role models in our FOO for effective communication. Add to that, we both had some passive aggressive tendencies, but my H was extremely so, especially with women.
> 
> So during those years, is it a surprise that our problems spilled into the bedroom? I hated being woken up in the middle of the night just for sex when I was exhausted from caring for the children. Add to that, I was breastfeeding and I had been through six pregnancies during those years. My body wasn't interested in sex very often. H, obviously, saw it differently. He simply got angry and would stomp out of the bedroom. I asked him to spend couple time with me so we could reconnect, but in his anger and hurt, he refused. I later found out that he had a porn addiction during this time and I believe that is what ultimately led him down the path to cheating. During the years he was cheating, I had no inkling. By the time I found out about it, the children were older, he and I had matured and worked through some of our issues, and our sex life had improved. I think he told me out of guilt because I was trying harder to provide him with a more regular sex life and things were better between us.
> 
> Here is the thing...marriage is supposed to be forever, in good times and bad, and that includes times when your wife might not be so interested in sex, or perhaps it's the H because he is depressed, has an illness, whatever. Yes, my H let me know he wasn't happy about our sex life. Does that make me responsible for his cheating? He knew I wasn't happy about a lot of things too that were important to me, so if I had chose to cheat, would that make him responsible? We could have weathered those bad years fine, and we almost did until I found out about the cheating. Except that he couldn't handle being a little bit patient with me and taking a look at the big picture of our lives together. I used to say that my parents marriage was an inspiration to me, not because it was easy and they got along perfectly, but because they were so different and yet they worked through it and came out on the other side completely devoted to each other in there later years. Isn't that what marriage is supposed to be? I don't know anymore what I believe about marriage and relationships. But I do know that it sure isn't black and white as some here would have it be.


It sounds like your H believed you were responsible for the relationship. And that might be okay if you believed that, too, and were okay with it. 

How are things now?


----------



## jld

Ceegee said:


> Don't mind at all.
> 
> Yes, she cheated.
> 
> Divorced me when I found out to avoid facing what she had done.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


She did not try at all to stay with you? Was perfectly content to leave?


----------



## Ceegee

jld said:


> She did not try at all to stay with you? Was perfectly content to leave?


Did not try to stay in the least.

Content to leave? No.

Desparate would be more accurate.


----------



## jld

Ceegee said:


> Did not try to stay in the least.
> 
> Content to leave? No.
> 
> Desparate would be more accurate.


And she has never tried to come back? Has totally moved on?


----------



## Ceegee

MEM11363 said:


> Ceegee,
> 
> You write in a clear and logical manner. Your posts make sense and your threads show your own conduct to be above reproach. You strike me as plenty smart.
> 
> So riddle me this - as I am confused beyond measure...
> 
> You describe your exW:
> - aesthetically as one of the most beautiful women you've ever met.
> and
> - behaviorally as a selfish, insecure, needy, controlling partner who is at best a mediocre mother
> 
> And yet, at the back end of 14 years of a sexless (totally sexless for the final 4 or so years) marriage you repeatedly wrote that you are still in love with her.
> 
> I looked and looked for any posts by you attributing attractive BEHAVIOR to her. Couldn't find any. What I found instead was a mountain of ugly stuff - mixed with disrespect and a total absence of attraction.
> 
> What was it you were in love with? It's a sincere question.


I suppose it could be confusing.

We had a long, mostly happy history with great memories and three wonderful children.

Plenty to love about that.

That she became who she became in the end didn't erase that history.

I still have love for that person. It's not a romantic love but a love nonetheless and completely unreciprocated. And that's ok. 

It's but a very small part of who I am and I won't deny that part of me to feel how it feels.


----------



## Ceegee

jld said:


> And she has never tried to come back? Has totally moved on?


No, never tried to come back. 

Has shown nothing but contempt and disrespect for the last 4 years. 

Take from that what you will to answer the second question.


----------



## jld

Ceegee said:


> No, never tried to come back.
> 
> Has shown nothing but contempt and disrespect for the last 4 years.
> 
> Take from that what you will to answer the second question.


Is she with a new partner?


----------



## Ceegee

jld said:


> Is she with a new partner?


That's a little fuzzy.

I think so but I think they still try to keep their relationship a secret for whatever reason.

OM's DD and our DD went to same summer camp. I went to pick mine up this Saturday. XW, OM, OMXW and her new husband were all there (one big happy family!) but XW and OM acted like they didn't even know each other. Stood on opposite sides of the room, didn't talk, didn't even acknowledge each other.


----------



## wild jade

LosingHim said:


> Have you ever been cheated on? I have. 10 year EA that I have strong suspicions went physical. I had what equated to a ONS.
> 
> The pain from both is awful.
> 
> Laying on my death bed....if I found out he had a ONS 30+ years before, learned from it and never did it again.....I think I'd die in a lot more peace than the 10+ years I've been dealing with the mind movies, unanswered questions, insecurities that have arisen and the arguments with myself I have every day.
> 
> Long term affair would be different. But I am also much more forgiving than most.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ouch! That would make my heart break. And yes, I do have some experience. One reason why I'd rather cut and run than attempt reconciliation.

Once a relationship is that damaged, I don't know if there is going back.


----------



## wild jade

larry.gray said:


> But what we keep trying to say is paternity issues ARE a HUGE deal. You can argue they're not, but until you have a son with children, it isn't applicable to you.
> 
> Further, paternity can be discovered essentially at any point, even long after you're dead. Consider Thomas Jefferson's love child with his domestic slave, found 200 years later.


Oh, right, that was THIS thread. Am starting to confuse them.

I just think that this shows that ignorance isn't really bliss. I guess there are some exceptions because some people prefer to have peaceful relationships than knowledge. But I think most people want to know those things that can hurt them.


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> Ouch! That would make my heart break. And yes, I do have some experience. One reason why I'd rather cut and run than attempt reconciliation.
> 
> Once a relationship is that damaged, I don't know if there is going back.


I think it depends on the people. If they can both look honestly at their problems, and do whatever is necessary to solve them, I think they can put things back together. It surely takes a lot of humility and love on both parts.

Or maybe just one very strong person committed to the relationship to inspire it in the other.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> I think it depends on the people. If they can both look honestly at their problems, and do whatever is necessary to solve them, I think they can put things back together. It surely takes a lot of humility and love on both parts.
> 
> Or maybe just one very strong person committed to the relationship to inspire it in the other.


As one who has more or less done it.....you can't control chemistry, and it's hell living without it. 

Unless the chemistry "just happens" you can restore polite and cordial relationships, but not passion. Even when the chemistry is there it's hard.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> As one who has more or less done it.....you can't control chemistry, and it's hell living without it.
> 
> Unless the chemistry "just happens" you can restore polite and cordial relationships, but not passion. Even when the chemistry is there it's hard.


Oh, I am sure there are no guarantees.

Wazza, how long did your wife's affair last?


----------



## wild jade

Wazza said:


> As one who has more or less done it.....you can't control chemistry, and it's hell living without it.
> 
> Unless the chemistry "just happens" you can restore polite and cordial relationships, but not passion. Even when the chemistry is there it's hard.


It is easy to be polite and cordial. At least I find it easy.

But there's no relationship in polite and cordial. That is how I act at work, professionally, with people I don't really care about but have to get along with. 

In my family, there are those who are all about keeping up appearances. Pretending all is well with a smile and polite conversation. But it's frosty cold. I couldn't live like that, personally.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> Oh, I am sure there are no guarantees.
> 
> Wazza, how long did your wife's affair last?


About 8 months.


----------



## Wazza

wild jade said:


> It is easy to be polite and cordial. At least I find it easy.
> 
> But there's no relationship in polite and cordial. That is how I act at work, professionally, with people I don't really care about but have to get along with.
> 
> In my family, there are those who are all about keeping up appearances. Pretending all is well with a smile and polite conversation. But it's frosty cold. I couldn't live like that, personally.


The work analogy is a really good one. Imagine someone you just can't work with. Achieving a polite and cordial relationship is a big deal.

Not enough to rebuild a marriage but worth celebrating. A useful intermediate step.

Now turn it around. Imagine a WS who genuinely wants to do the right thing, but it's just not working, and she (in my wife's case) is soooooo unhappy. And is a decent person who is trying to do right, but it is sooooo hard. I think I can see how she cracked. There but for the grace of God....?


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> About 8 months.


Thanks for clarifying that. For some reason I thought it was 4 years. Not sure why.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> The work analogy is a really good one. Imagine someone you just can't work with. Achieving a polite and cordial relationship is a big deal.
> 
> Not enough to rebuild a marriage but worth celebrating. A useful intermediate step.
> 
> Now turn it around. Imagine a WS who genuinely wants to do the right thing, but it's just not working, and she (in my wife's case) is soooooo unhappy. And is a decent person who is trying to do right, but it is sooooo hard. I think I can see how she cracked. There but for the grace of God....?


What exactly happened?


----------



## MEM2020

How was I controlling?

I would get irritated or impatient or angry with M2 for certain core traits. In an attempt to change her. 

The simplest example of this - is - about money stuff. 

The way it used to be: We would have fairly ugly fights about relatively noise level money stuff. 

The way it is: I say - what do you think about - XYZ?

And then - M2 - wrestles not to - say something she will feel bad about later like: what a dumb fvcking idea

Finally she will say - sure that sounds good.

---------
This isn't her fault - just how she's wired. So there is zero tension about her not positive reaction. 

A week later - I mention the same topic - and she is way more positive. 

And then - after that - if I bring it up - she starts asking me why I have t bought it yet - or if she can pick it up for me.

----------






jld said:


> Could you elaborate on the bolded, please?


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> Thanks for clarifying that. For some reason I thought it was 4 years. Not sure why.


I could not have survived four years.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> How was I controlling?
> 
> I would get irritated or impatient or angry with M2 for certain core traits. In an attempt to change her.
> 
> The simplest example of this - is - about money stuff.
> 
> The way it used to be: We would have fairly ugly fights about relatively noise level money stuff.
> 
> The way it is: I say - what do you think about - XYZ?
> 
> And then - M2 - wrestles not to - say something she will feel bad about later like: what a dumb fvcking idea
> 
> Finally she will say - sure that sounds good.
> 
> ---------
> This isn't her fault - just how she's wired. So there is zero tension about her not positive reaction.
> 
> A week later - I mention the same topic - and she is way more positive.
> 
> And then - after that - if I bring it up - she starts asking me why I have t bought it yet - or if she can pick it up for me.
> 
> ----------


MEM, you seem to have a lot of money. Why do these small amounts seem to be an issue for you and your wife?


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> I could not have survived four years.


Yeah, that would be a long time. But I knew you were devoted to your kids, so it did not seem unreasonable.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> What exactly happened?


A decent person hit her limits. Under the influence of toxic friends, her husband became the focus for everything she hated in life and, deeply unhappy, she sought solace in the arms of another man. 

There was no reasoning, no negotiation, not even any honest discussion. The things I wrote about in our previous exchange were all true, with no exaggeration, but also deeply out of character. Until you look deeper, and then it all forms a consistent pattern......

Honestly JLD, I can't explain it to you, because until it happens to you it seems too far fetched to be real.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> MEM, you seem to have a lot of money. Why do these small amounts seem to be an issue for you and your wife?


Because without arguing about money, lots of money has a tendency to diminish. Add large expenses (college, cat food  ) and things get ugly quickly...

J2 seems to think there's a money tree in the backyard. Only I pay the bills and know better.

Generally speaking, nobody in online forum land has the kind of money needed to ignore major expenses... Even minor expenses piled on top of each other month after month add up.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> Yeah, that would be a long time. But I knew you were devoted to your kids, so it did not seem unreasonable.


I could possibly have stayed "married" in as much as preserving the family unit for the kids. But I think any trust, or whatever, would have been so far gone that I would just be waiting till they were adults and I was free to leave.

And I could probably not have stayed faithful for four years.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> A decent person hit her limits. Under the influence of toxic friends, her husband became the focus for everything she hated in life and, deeply unhappy, she sought solace in the arms of another man.
> 
> There was no reasoning, no negotiation, not even any honest discussion. The things I wrote about in our previous exchange were all true, with no exaggeration, but also deeply out of character. Until you look deeper, and then it all forms a consistent pattern......
> 
> Honestly JLD, I can't explain it to you, because until it happens to you it seems too far fetched to be real.


You feel the toxic friends were the reason for the affair? Has she said that?


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Because without arguing about money, lots of money has a tendency to diminish. Add large expenses (college, cat food  ) and things get ugly quickly...
> 
> J2 seems to think there's a money tree in the backyard. Only I pay the bills and know better.
> 
> Generally speaking, nobody in online forum land has the kind of money needed to ignore major expenses... Even minor expenses piled on top of each other month after month add up.


But even saving small amounts, like $100, seems to really be a big deal to them. It just seems curious to me when I consider how much money they have, according to what MEM has said here on the forum.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> You feel the toxic friends were the reason for the affair? Has she said that?


They were a factor. Not the only one.

Tie it all back to Cletus' post. There was a long and complicated back story to the affair. She wasn't a selfish Harridan out for what she could get. She was a real person with real hurt, and some ****** in her armour.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> I could possibly have stayed "married" in as much as preserving the family unit for the kids. But I think any trust, or whatever, would have been so far gone that I would just be waiting till they were adults and I was free to leave.
> 
> And I could probably not have stayed faithful for four years.


Understandable. I am amazed by the people in sexless marriages who do not cheat. Their devotion to their families is laudable.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> They were a factor. Not the only one.
> 
> Tie it all back to Cletus' post. There was a long and complicated back story to the affair. She wasn't a selfish Harridan out for what she could get. She was a real person with real hurt, and some ****** in her armour.


I believe that. Has she ever said what you could have done differently? What she wishes she had done differently?


----------



## john117

jld said:


> But even saving small amounts, like $100, seems to really be a big deal to them. It just seems curious to me when I consider how much money they have, according to what MEM has said here on the forum.


$100 is not a small amount... not mentally at least. 

Spending like a Saudi has the tendency to (a) feed on itself and (B) give wrong impression on children or other relatives...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> $100 is not a small amount... not mentally at least.
> 
> Spending like a Saudi has the tendency to (a) feed on itself and (B) give wrong impression on children or other relatives...


It costs $100 for our family to go to our favorite Ethiopian restaurant. 

I don't know that that is spending like a Saudi. We just like it and so it is worth it to us. And our net worth is way lower than MEM's, or yours.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> I believe that. Has she ever said what you could have done differently? What she wishes she had done differently?


Beyond admitting that the affair was wrong, no. I am sure she thinks she just needed more self control. I don't think it works that way.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> Beyond admitting that the affair was wrong, no. I am sure she thinks she just needed more self control. I don't think it works that way.


She has never told you what she thinks you could have done differently that might have prevented the affair?


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
MC told me it has absolutely nothing to do with money and everything to do with control. 

So - what is it that I'm doing different now? 

Thing is - my friend John - thinks that M2 and J2 are absolutely different. And yet John says the most insightful things. For example, going on vacation with J2 is difficult because she responds VERY badly to surprises. 

So - when I FIRST say to M2: what do you thing about XYZ?

It's a surprise - not all that different to when you come home and an appliance malfunctions. You have to pay to repair or replace it. Not a welcome surprise. 

So M2 - her INITIAL reaction to what I suggest is suppressed annoyance. But after a few conversations - she - acts the EXACT SAME way you would hope your spouse would when discussing something they know you want. Happy about it. Or at least resigned in a good natured way. 

We literally have zero conflict over money (control) any more and it used to be my single biggest issue in the marriage. 





jld said:


> MEM, you seem to have a lot of money. Why do these small amounts seem to be an issue for you and your wife?


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> MC told me it has absolutely nothing to do with money and everything to do with control.
> 
> So - what is it that I'm doing different now?
> 
> Thing is - my friend John - thinks that M2 and J2 are absolutely different. And yet John says the most insightful things. For example, going on vacation with J2 is difficult because she responds VERY badly to surprises.
> 
> So - when I FIRST say to M2: what do you thing about XYZ?
> 
> It's a surprise - not all that different to when you come home and an appliance malfunctions. You have to pay to repair or replace it. Not a welcome surprise.
> 
> So M2 - her INITIAL reaction to what I suggest is suppressed annoyance. But after a few conversations - she - acts the EXACT SAME way you would hope your spouse would when discussing something they know you want. Happy about it. Or at least resigned in a good natured way.
> 
> We literally have zero conflict over money (control) any more and it used to be my single biggest issue in the marriage.


Again, I am just surprised that what would seem like small amounts seem to register with you. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that. It is just an observation.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> She has never told you what she thinks you could have done differently that might have prevented the affair?


Pretty sure I have already answered that. 

I can't take you through the details, but I believe without doubt that what I wrote earlier was accurate. There was always going to be an explosion in the marriage, because of issues she had to confront in her. That is not to say I am perfect. I am not. But the issues were in her, just as Cletus had to come to terms with his sexuality, even though his wife's level of interest was a factor.

Had I made some decisions differently, the nature of the explosion might have changed. But I think it was always going to be an affair or a sudden divorce. I can't see any other possibility.

There is nothing I could have done.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> Pretty sure I have already answered that.
> 
> I can't take you through the details, but I believe without doubt that what I wrote earlier was accurate. There was always going to be an explosion in the marriage, because of issues she had to confront in her. That is not to say I am perfect. I am not. But the issues were in her, just as Cletus had to come to terms with his sexuality, even though his wife's level if interest was a factor.
> 
> Had I made some decisions differently, the nature of the explosion might have changed. But I think it was always going to be an affair or a sudden divorce. I can't see any other possibility.
> 
> There is nothing I could have done.


How does that make you feel?


----------



## larry.gray

Wazza said:


> Of course it's dangerous, you're playing Russian roulette more or less! By not asking the question, and taking the choice to not tell her, you answer the question for her.


I used the word "hypothetical" for a reason. I'm not hiding anything.




Wazza said:


> it might work out ok,or it might all blow up years or decades later. Bit of a high stakes gamble in my mind. You'd better be darn sure *she* would rather not know (as distinct from *you* preferring she didn't). It's hard enough rebuilding trust at all after something like that, but when your partner destroys the credibility of their word trying to hide things, it makes it much worse.


Yep, the total summation of the risk - you could be caught decades later. At that point it is all fresh for the BS.


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> Yep, the total summation of the risk - you could be caught decades later. At that point it is all fresh for the BS.


That is why I do not think it is wise to hide anything. Get it out right away and deal with it.


----------



## Wazza

Adding this.....

I am an imperfect person...broken, if you like. I have my achievements in life, but also my failings.

Someone else who has an affair is a person who has failings. Like (in my view) everyone else. That is not fashionable in TAM land, but if people would take the time to contemplate that, some marriages that currently end in divorce could be saved, and some BS would be happier people. Not all, but some.


----------



## jld

MEM, I think we are all somewhere on the controlling scale, each in our own ways. Controlling is one way we try to keep ourselves safe.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> How does that make you feel?


Thoughtful.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> Adding this.....
> 
> I am an imperfect person...broken, if you like. I have my achievements in life, but also my failings.
> 
> Someone else who has an affair is a person who has failings. Like (in my view) everyone else. That is not fashionable in TAM land, but if people would take the time to contemplate that, some marriages that currently end in divorce could be saved, and some BS would be happier people. Not all, but some.


I agree that affairs are but one outcome of brokenness. Not sure why they are considered worse than other displays of brokenness.


----------



## MEM2020

I can't speak to this because John is being too abstract. 

Only thing I can say is I would never grind M2 on small stuff. 

And $100 type stuff - a few times a month or weekly - is small stuff.






john117 said:


> Because without arguing about money, lots of money has a tendency to diminish. Add large expenses (college, cat food  ) and things get ugly quickly...
> 
> J2 seems to think there's a money tree in the backyard. Only I pay the bills and know better.
> 
> Generally speaking, nobody in online forum land has the kind of money needed to ignore major expenses... Even minor expenses piled on top of each other month after month add up.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> I agree that affairs are but one outcome of brokenness. Not sure why they are considered worse than other displays of brokenness.


I remember trying to explain it to you once. I guess it is inconceivable until you feel it.


----------



## Wazza

MEM11363 said:


> I can't speak to this because John is being too abstract.
> 
> Only thing I can say is I would never grind M2 on small stuff.
> 
> And $100 type stuff - a few times a month or weekly - is small stuff.


I look at Mrs W's income and $100 per month is a net profit.


----------



## jld

I think in some affairs the BS could have done something to prevent them. In others, things really were out of his or her sphere of influence.

I think it is too painful for some BSs to see that, though. It is easier for them to believe the TAM teaching that the affair is 100% on the cheater. It makes them feel safe somehow.

And that is not to say that the 100% idea does not have its own validity. It is indeed a tool of empowerment for the cheater to trust that they do not have to make that choice again.

It is just sad when it is used as some sort of weapon against them by the BS.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> I remember trying to explain it to you once. I guess it is inconceivable until you feel it.


And it may not feel the same to me. We just do not all feel things the same way.


----------



## MEM2020

They don't register with me. They register with her. 

Sound bar for the TV - $200. I mentioned it 3 times over a month. At which point M2 sincerely started offering to pick it up at Best Buy.

In reverse - the first time she mentions something costs $200 - I shrug and say: that looks nice get it

Even the occasional big stuff - like next years vacation - which was already gonna be a splurge just for the two of us - yesterday she asked if we could bring the kids. That choice increases the budget by 10K. But it's kind of a one off so I just said - sounds good. 





jld said:


> Again, I am just surprised that what would seem like small amounts seem to register with you. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that. It is just an observation.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> I think in some affairs the BS could have done something to prevent them. In others, things really were out of his or her sphere of influence.
> 
> I think it is too painful for some BSs to see that, though. It is easier for them to believe the TAM teaching that the affair is 100% on the cheater. It makes them feel safe somehow.
> 
> And that is not to say that the 100% idea does not have its own validity. It is indeed a tool of empowerment for the cheater to trust that they do not have to make that choice again.
> 
> It is just sad when it is used as some sort of weapon against them by the BS.


I think that examining the dichotomy between your first two paragraphs is the growth area.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> I think that examining the dichotomy between your first two paragraphs is the growth area.


I reread it. Not seeing it.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> It costs $100 for our family to go to our favorite Ethiopian restaurant.
> 
> I don't know that that is spending like a Saudi. We just like it and so it is worth it to us. And our net worth is way lower than MEM's, or yours.


It's got to do with attitude more than absolute or relative financial status. I grew up dirt poor and I'm rather thrifty...


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> And it may not feel the same to me. We just do not all feel things the same way.


Strange comment. Do you see yourself as understanding how it feels to be a BS?


----------



## Wazza

Deleted (I am sure there used to be a delete option)


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> I reread it. Not seeing it.


I doibt I can explain it.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> They don't register with me. They register with her.
> 
> Sound bar for the TV - $200. I mentioned it 3 times over a month. At which point M2 sincerely started offering to pick it up at Best Buy.
> 
> In reverse - the first time she mentions something costs $200 - I shrug and say: that looks nice get it
> 
> Even the occasional big stuff - like next years vacation - which was already gonna be a splurge just for the two of us - yesterday she asked if we could bring the kids. That choice increases the budget by 10K. But it's kind of a one off so I just said - sounds good.


But even $10k is not much for you, is it?

I realize "not much" is relative. 

Idk. It just seems like money is a lot bigger deal to you than to Dug, and he has a lot less of it. 

Again, not good or bad, or maybe even relevant. Just an observation. Feel free to ignore.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
You are in the midst of a large transfer of wealth to your daughters - while you are alive - and to a large degree at the expense of J2's desired lifestyle. 

Maybe she doesn't articulate it like I just did - but I'd make a large wager it feels really bad to her. 







john117 said:


> It's got to do with attitude more than absolute or relative financial status. I grew up dirt poor and I'm rather thrifty...


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> It's got to do with attitude more than absolute or relative financial status. I grew up dirt poor and I'm rather thrifty...


Dug's and my parents did not have much, either.

Dug says money is a tool. No more, no less.


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> Strange comment. Do you see yourself as understanding how it feels to be a BS?


I am sure it feels crushing, like you don't even know the person. 

I think some affairs really have nothing to do with the BS, like when there is same sex cheating, or certain types of serial cheating.

But I think in other affairs the BS knows when they have neglected or taken their spouse for granted. They know they have a hand in their own troubles. I think that is often when some cling so tightly to the "100% on the cheater" mantra.

What is sad that by just acknowledging what they contributed, they could relieve that feeling of victimhood. 

Gosh, it must be awful to feel like a complete victim, no power or influence at all.


----------



## MattMatt

Wazza said:


> Deleted (I am sure there used to be a delete option)


I think it went in the update.

There's a lot of talk in online communities about how cross people are when someone poses a question, they write an incredibly detailed and thoughtful response only to see it and dozens of other pages of posts go down in flames when the person who made the thread starter post deletes their post.

Getting rid of the ability to delete stops this.


----------



## john117

MEM, the two ladies in question vary considerably, in terms of motives, emotional processing, and emotional bandwidth.

J2 is not a reasonable person - we have had many arguments about stupid things whereas you have discussions. 

We just spent $400 repairing an oven display. Wasn't bright enough . Two days later the upstairs fridge dies. I helped move the contents to the fridge downstairs and noticed we have enough frozen food to feed an army. Yet this food is rarely served. So I asked - politely - what's the point in $200 worth of frozen meat for two people? Needless to say, she can't comprehend the issue.

Thankfully it was only a $250 repair for the fridge so we didn't lose any food, but you get the idea. 

No arguments about money is easy if one side makes or controls the vast majority - in my case it's 55℅ to 45℅. Even with two reasonable people its not quite as straightforward as you think.

Maybe we should swap wives for a week and then you could understand it a bit better... Eventually M2 backs down. There's no known scenario that would make J2 back down, save for deception or manipulation.


----------



## Ceegee

jld said:


> I think in some affairs the BS could have done something to prevent them. In others, things really were out of his or her sphere of influence.
> 
> I think it is too painful for some BSs to see that, though. It is easier for them to believe the TAM teaching that the affair is 100% on the cheater. It makes them feel safe somehow.
> 
> And that is not to say that the 100% idea does not have its own validity. It is indeed a tool of empowerment for the cheater to trust that they do not have to make that choice again.
> 
> It is just sad when it is used as some sort of weapon against them by the BS.


Funny thing is, many BS's do think they can prevent affairs.

In the end they realize they cannot.

In fact, measures used to prevent them are often seen as controlling or manipulative.

It is truly sad when THIS is used as some sort of weapon by the WS.


----------



## larry.gray

jld said:


> But even saving small amounts, like $100, seems to really be a big deal to them. It just seems curious to me when I consider how much money they have, according to what MEM has said here on the forum.


I'm curious what @SimplyAmorous would say. She's on the other end of the spectrum.

I don't sweat individual $100 expenses. But those are the ones that add up big time. I too have a $100+ bill to take all of the kids out. One time, no big deal. It's when it's many times per paycheck that becomes an issue.


----------



## jld

Ceegee said:


> Funny thing is, many BS's do think they can prevent affairs.
> 
> In the end they realize they cannot.
> 
> In fact, measures used to prevent them are often seen as controlling or manipulative.
> 
> It is truly sad when THIS is used as some sort of weapon by the WS.


Some cannot prevent affairs. 

I do think some could.


----------



## MattMatt

jld said:


> I am sure it feels crushing, like you don't even know the person.
> 
> I think some affairs really have nothing to do with the BS, like when there is same sex cheating, or certain types of serial cheating.
> 
> But I think in other affairs the BS knows when they have neglected or taken their spouse for granted. They know they have a hand in their own troubles. I think that is often when some cling so tightly to the "100% on the cheater" mantra.
> 
> What is sad that by just acknowledging what they contributed, they could relieve that feeling of victimhood.
> 
> Gosh, it must be awful to feel like a complete victim, no power or influence at all.


Gosh, it must also be absolutely awful to have such an utter lack of self-awareness that a person can make such hurtful comments.

An example of this was a young married woman who was badly marked by a massive birthmark on one side of her face.

An older woman who had no self-awareness said: "Your husband must really love you, seeing what a horrible blemish you have on your face."


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> I'm curious what @SimplyAmorous would say. She's on the other end of the spectrum.
> 
> I don't sweat individual $100 expenses. But those are the ones that add up big time. I too have a $100+ bill to take all of the kids out. One time, no big deal. It's when it's many times per paycheck that becomes an issue.


Or what your other expenses are.


----------



## jld

MattMatt said:


> Gosh, it must also be absolutely awful to have such an utter lack of self-awareness that a person can make such hurtful comments.
> 
> An example of this was a young married woman who was badly marked by a massive birthmark on one side of her face.
> 
> An older woman who had no self-awareness said: "Your husband must really love you, seeing what a horrible blemish you have on your face."


And if she is confident, she will smile and say, "That is a beauty mark!" 

We can choose our interpretations, Matt, as well as our responses.


----------



## larry.gray

MattMatt said:


> Gosh, it must also be absolutely awful to have such an utter lack of self-awareness that a person can make such hurtful comments.
> 
> An example of this was a young married woman who was badly marked by a massive birthmark on one side of her face.
> 
> An older woman who had no self-awareness said: "Your husband must really love you, seeing what a horrible blemish you have on your face."


Just curious Matt, how does your wife respond to being on the receiving end of such comments?


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> I am sure it feels crushing, like you don't even know the person.
> 
> I think some affairs really have nothing to do with the BS, like when there is same sex cheating, or certain types of serial cheating.
> 
> But I think in other affairs the BS knows when they have neglected or taken their spouse for granted. They know they have a hand in their own troubles. I think that is often when some cling so tightly to the "100% on the cheater" mantra.
> 
> What is sad that by just acknowledging what they contributed, they could relieve that feeling of victimhood.
> 
> Gosh, it must be awful to feel like a complete victim, no power or influence at all.


Neglect is the wrong word. If I let my wife make a bad choice, was that an act of neglect? In a context where she had two options, either of which had a clear downside, that she refused to see? And where my choice was to do what she wanted me to do?

This may be an area where your basic philosophy takes us into disagreement, but my view is that if she insists on the right to make choices she must accept the consequences of her choices. 

Not as bad as someone who, for example, pursues serial affairs because they want to, but worse (in my view) than Cletus, who was essentially asked to deny his sexuality.


----------



## MEM2020

John,

I will now do with you - the exact same thing I do with M2.

I start with something that is clearly true and emotionally validating.

I absolutely know that J2 and M2 are radically different because - M2 would care for me if I was injured/incapacitated. That difference by itself is huge.

Second thing - is - this isn't a power struggle. Not for me. I am not trying to get M2 to 'back down'. I am instead giving her some breathing room to process stuff. 

If the sound bar - bought on day 1 is going to make her anxious and upset. And purchased on day 30 or day 40 is a non issue, it's a no brainer to me. 





john117 said:


> MEM, the two ladies in question vary considerably, in terms of motives, emotional processing, and emotional bandwidth.
> 
> J2 is not a reasonable person - we have had many arguments about stupid things whereas you have discussions.
> 
> We just spent $400 repairing an oven display. Wasn't bright enough . Two days later the upstairs fridge dies. I helped move the contents to the fridge downstairs and noticed we have enough frozen food to feed an army. Yet this food is rarely served. So I asked - politely - what's the point in $200 worth of frozen meat for two people? Needless to say, she can't comprehend the issue.
> 
> Thankfully it was only a $250 repair for the fridge so we didn't lose any food, but you get the idea.
> 
> No arguments about money is easy if one side makes or controls the vast majority - in my case it's 55℅ to 45℅. Even with two reasonable people its not quite as straightforward as you think.
> 
> Maybe we should swap wives for a week and then you could understand it a bit better... Eventually M2 backs down. There's no known scenario that would make J2 back down, save for deception or manipulation.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> But even $10k is not much for you, is it?
> 
> I realize "not much" is relative.


$10k was the budget for a Christmas vacation this year. Was is the operative word.

I'm not interested in spending $10k or $10 on J2 at this point for what would likely be a shopping spree in Italy for her and me playing Angry Birds waiting for her to be done.

But the real issue is not the $10k or shopping spree. It's that we come back with more stuff, and this enamors her with the house even more, so she doesn't see that we should be downsizing ahead of med school tuition in a year... 

Money amounts are relative, attitude is absolute.


----------



## Wazza

jld said:


> Some cannot prevent affairs.
> 
> I do think some could.


I suspect very few. Agree to disagree.


----------



## Ceegee

jld said:


> Some cannot prevent affairs.
> 
> I do think some could.


Your position is that BS can prevent an affair some of the time.

This may be true if certain conditions are met.

My position is that a WS spouse can prevent an affair all of the time.

This view is not conditional on the state of the relationship but is rooted in personal accountability.


----------



## john117

She does articulate it quite well. She conveniently forgets how much money her parents gave to educate three kids abroad... 

She also conveniently forgets the part that we either downsize in the next 12 months or else the next time the housing market here tanks we're fvcked. 

Yesterday we ran into some old neighbors. Husband from her country and a manager at my company. She was employed in a lower pay bank type work. They also built a McMansion. Took them 2 years to sell. No kids, moving to Hilton Head. They barely broke even on the McMansion after 12 years. Most such houses lose money here... No comprendo...

And that's when the housing market is "good".


----------



## jld

Wazza said:


> Neglect is the wrong word. If I let my wife make a bad choice, was that an act of neglect? In a context where she had two options, either of which had a clear downside, that she refused to see? And where my choice was to do what she wanted me to do?
> 
> This may be an area where your basic philosophy takes us into disagreement, but my view is that if she insists on the right to make choices she must accept the consequences of her choices.
> 
> Not as bad as someone who, for example, pursues serial affairs because they want to, but worse (in my view) than Cletus, who was essentially asked to deny his sexuality.


Idk the specifics of your wife's affair, so cannot comment. But if a husband or wife feels neglected, and is vulnerable to the attention of an AP, then that is an area of improvement for the BS, if he or she wants to prevent another affair.


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> Just curious Matt, how does your wife respond to being on the receiving end of such comments?


Is it your wife you are talking about, Matt?


----------



## jld

Ceegee said:


> My position is that a WS spouse can prevent an affair all of the time.
> 
> This view is not conditional on the state of the relationship but is rooted in personal accountability.


And the point of that personal accountability is to keep the BS safe?

We likely have a fundamentally different view of affairs, their significance, and how to deal with them.


----------



## Ceegee

jld said:


> And the point of that personal accountability is to keep the BS safe?


Not sure I understand your meaning here but I'm fairly certain the answer is no. 




jld said:


> We likely have a fundamentally different view of affairs, their significance, and how to deal with them.


You don't say...


----------



## larry.gray

jld said:


> Is it your wife you are talking about, Matt?


Oh the irony of you fretting over a thread jack!


----------



## ButtPunch

jld said:


> And the point of that personal accountability is to keep the BS safe?
> 
> We likely have a fundamentally different view of affairs, their significance, and how to deal with them.


personal accountability is called character


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> Oh the irony of you fretting over a thread jack!


?


----------



## jld

ButtPunch said:


> personal accountability is called character


Do you hold yourself accountable for having neglected your wife?

I remember the letter she wrote to you from that treatment facility. I thought it was the most revealing post on your thread.


----------



## MattMatt

larry.gray said:


> Just curious Matt, how does your wife respond to being on the receiving end of such comments?


My wife is not involved in this thread. And I will be happy to keep it that way. 

Not my wife, just someone I knew several decades ago.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MEM2020

John,
The house thing is a no brainer. It is sad that she is kind of - fixated on it. 

And the issue is as you frame it - it's about what the spend means. 

Are you twelve months from filing? 






john117 said:


> She does articulate it quite well. She conveniently forgets how much money her parents gave to educate three kids abroad...
> 
> She also conveniently forgets the part that we either downsize in the next 12 months or else the next time the housing market here tanks we're fvcked.
> 
> Yesterday we ran into some old neighbors. Husband from her country and a manager at my company. She was employed in a lower pay bank type work. They also built a McMansion. Took them 2 years to sell. No kids, moving to Hilton Head. They barely broke even on the McMansion after 12 years. Most such houses lose money here... No comprendo...
> 
> And that's when the housing market is "good".


----------



## john117

More like ten


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
I think folks are saying that - character matters A LOT. You can love someone with bad character - but you can't really trust them.




jld said:


> And the point of that personal accountability is to keep the BS safe?
> 
> We likely have a fundamentally different view of affairs, their significance, and how to deal with them.


----------



## 225985

jld said:


> I think in some affairs the BS could have done something to prevent them. In others, things really were out of his or her sphere of influence.
> 
> 
> 
> I think it is too painful for some BSs to see that, though. It is easier for them to believe the TAM teaching that the affair is 100% on the cheater. It makes them feel safe somehow.
> 
> 
> 
> And that is not to say that the 100% idea does not have its own validity. It is indeed a tool of empowerment for the cheater to trust that they do not have to make that choice again.
> 
> 
> 
> It is just sad when it is used as some sort of weapon against them by the BS.




I agree with all this except the part about the cheater "have to" make that choice. They never "have to". Substitute "want to" instead for a more accurate description of what happens.


----------



## MattMatt

jld said:


> Is it your wife you are talking about, Matt?


No, just someone I knew many years ago.

Not my wife.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> I think folks are saying that - character matters A LOT. You can love someone with bad character - but you can't really trust them.


Totally agree.

I just don't think that the cheater is the only person with possible bad character in a marriage. Even that term--cheater--might be a misnomer. They may feel cheated, too.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
I recently had a window into a divorce. Both parties spoke candidly to me. 

There was infidelity - and it became the catalyst for the marriage ending. But the marriage had been dead for quite some time.

The BS - used the affair like a magician uses a misdirecting prop. Everything was the fault of the WS because ey had the affair. 

The truth is the BS - has zero interest in owning their contributions to the marriage ending. 

And when the BS does some bad stuff as a single person - it's never their fault. 





jld said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> I just don't think that the cheater is the only person with possible bad character in a marriage. Even that term--cheater--might be a misnomer. They may feel cheated, too.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> I recently had a window into a divorce. Both parties spoke candidly to me.
> 
> There was infidelity - and it became the catalyst for the marriage ending. But the marriage had been dead for quite some time.
> 
> The BS - used the affair like a magician uses a misdirecting prop. Everything was the fault of the WS because ey had the affair.
> 
> The truth is the BS - has zero interest in owning their contributions to the marriage ending.
> 
> And when the BS does some bad stuff as a single person - it's never their fault.


Lol, MEM. I think the WS should take the "credit" in that case. Put the marriage out of its misery!


----------



## Ceegee

jld said:


> Totally agree.
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't think that the cheater is the only person with possible bad character in a marriage. Even that term--cheater--might be a misnomer. They may feel cheated, too.




I agree. 

Going forward, how about using the term adulterer?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Ceegee said:


> I agree.
> 
> Going forward, how about using the term adulterer?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sounds so formal. And religious.


----------



## Ceegee

MEM11363 said:


> The BS - used the affair like a magician uses a misdirecting prop. Everything was the fault of the WS because ey had the affair.
> 
> 
> 
> The truth is the BS - has zero interest in owning their contributions to the marriage ending.
> 
> 
> 
> And when the BS does some bad stuff as a single person - it's never their fault.





Are you applying this to your example or to BS's as a whole?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ceegee

jld said:


> Sounds so formal. And religious.




Thank you! 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Ceegee said:


> Thank you!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What does the emoticon mean?

I was just commenting on the word "adulterer." Just my opinion.


----------



## Ceegee

jld said:


> What does the emoticon mean?
> 
> 
> 
> I was just commenting on the word "adulterer." Just my opinion.




I was taking your post as a compliment. 

Formal and religious are positive terms in my experience. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ceegee

jld said:


> And if she is confident, she will smile and say, "That is a beauty mark!"
> 
> 
> 
> We can choose our interpretations, Matt, as well as our responses.




Was following your advice. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Ceegee said:


> I was taking your post as a compliment.
> 
> Formal and religious are positive terms in my experience.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Oh, I thought it was a mad face. I did not understand why.


----------



## jld

Ceegee said:


> Was following your advice.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That is a very good habit to get into, Ceegee.


----------



## MEM2020

To my example.

No idea how common it is. 

How about you? Did the affair destroy your marriage. 

Or did the marriage slowly die - and then when it was mostly dead - C2 started looking around for a replacement?

Because what you described was a situation where you loved her all the way through and she gradually fell completely out of love with you. 





Ceegee said:


> Are you applying this to your example or to BS's as a whole?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sapientia

john117 said:


> Generally speaking, nobody in online forum land has the kind of money needed to ignore major expenses... Even minor expenses piled on top of each other month after month add up.


Noone anywhere, whatever their financial position, can afford to not have a grasp on their expenses. There are definitely "rich" people living above their means that are in financial difficulty because they forget the basic rule of "more in, than out". My sister works for a bank and sees people with their BMWs and designer clothes whose bank accounts are el zippo.

Some of the richest people are often the quiet ones who live very modesty. There are some very rich farmers, for example, who drive beater trucks, wear ripped jeans and baseball caps, with 8 figure bank accounts. Money is just a tool to do what you like, IMO.


----------



## Ceegee

MEM11363 said:


> To my example.
> 
> No idea how common it is.
> 
> How about you? Did the affair destroy your marriage.
> 
> Or did the marriage slowly die - and then when it was mostly dead - C2 started looking around for a replacement?
> 
> Because what you described was a situation where you loved her all the way through and she gradually fell completely out of love with you.


As in your example, it was a catalyst.

It was dying and there wasn't a damn thing I could do about it.

It's a matter of perspective as to whether it "destroyed" the marriage.

I'd say yes as I believed all of our issues could be fixed. 

Her opinion would be more along the lines of "your jealousy is pushing me away"!

C'est la vie.


----------



## anonmd

sapientia said:


> Noone anywhere, whatever their financial position, can afford to not have a grasp on their expenses. There are definitely "rich" people living above their means that are in financial difficulty because they forget the basic rule of "more in, than out". My sister works for a bank and sees people with their BMWs and designer clothes whose bank accounts are el zippo.
> 
> Some of the richest people are often the quiet ones who live very modesty. There are some very rich farmers, for example, who drive beater trucks, wear ripped jeans and baseball caps, with 8 figure bank accounts. Money is just a tool to do what you like, IMO.


Yes, agreed. 

The type of expense also matters. Operating or capital so to speak. 

I'm at the stage of life with a rather substantial income and pretty decent asset base, far above average if you believe the statistics. But, I am in a race of time between remaining working years, remaining mortgage balance and not enough invested yet to call it quits. 

I do not worry about any given $100 expense at all. I do from time to time look at the monthly bills and trim things back where it seems they've gotten out of hand without real value. You know, the cable or satellite bill that passed $100 per month then got supplemented with $50 per month of streaming subscriptions...

$10K is an interesting #. If it was operating it'd need to be important, preferably known some time in advance. Capital less important, I could probably be convinced that inviting grown kids along on a big trip might be an investment (if I had grown kids), or talk myself in to it. But I'd have to think about it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

larry.gray said:


> I'm curious what @SimplyAmorous would say. She's on the other end of the spectrum.
> 
> I don't sweat individual $100 expenses. But those are the ones that add up big time. I too have a $100+ bill to take all of the kids out. One time, no big deal. It's when it's many times per paycheck that becomes an issue.


I just seen the mention.. not sure what the question really is.. but No..we wouldn't just easily blow $10,000 on a family vacation - thinking not much of it...I'd probably feel sick doing that... even if we have a lot saved for emergencies..

I would strangle Johns wife !! But then again...shes a high earning career woman -so she can afford stuff like that.. fixing an oven display for $400..I would find this over the top crazy wasteful... 

We don't have money like this to burn.. never will.. though we've never went without either...for our larger family size.. we have done well...

I think LIKE YOU on this one @larry.gray ...those $100's ADD UP !! We do splurge once in a while.. for the experience.. but that makes it all the more savoring... and filled with anticipation..


----------



## 2ntnuf

sapientia said:


> Interesting. How did you control yourself, in your situation? I've forgotten, please remind me again, you WERE cheated on, correct? I'd like to understand a proactive example, not where you reacted to someone else's behaviour.
> 
> I wasn't cheated on, to be clear. Nor am I a cheater. I had enough self-control to put an end to an ugly situation before it ever got there (I think, 99% sure my ex didn't either). I did, however, put up with arguably far worse things, far longer than I should have.
> 
> My lesson is well learned. I understand exactly what I did to contribute to the death of my first marriage. I used to subscribe to binary thinking when I was younger but I've evolved to understand it is a very juvenile way of viewing the world. Grey thinking is hard, but it more accurately describes the world and allows you to make future predictions about it. You can do it too, but you have to make the effort to stretch your brain if you want to grow.
> 
> You are correct that we only control ourselves. You state the words but you haven't internalized it. If you did, you wouldn't continue to rage about people doing things to you. You would realize YOU allowed them to do it to you.


Why is it you believe I think in black and white? Because I sometimes give examples from my life experiences when I post? 

You've just given an example of binary thinking, Sap. You can't see what is behind a post. You can't see the thoughts so you choose to believe negatively. You refuse to consider any other thoughts. 

You are very arrogant, Sap. You obviously don't know me. You want me to tell you what happened because you can't figure out what is going on, but you post like you do. 

Are you certain you know why your marriage failed?


----------



## john117

The oven stack costs $2400 new... It includes a convection oven, warming drawer, and microwave oven. smart idea to get it fixed, in the grand scheme of things. No display no oven incidentally


----------



## Wazza

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> I recently had a window into a divorce. Both parties spoke candidly to me.
> 
> There was infidelity - and it became the catalyst for the marriage ending. But the marriage had been dead for quite some time.
> 
> The BS - used the affair like a magician uses a misdirecting prop. Everything was the fault of the WS because ey had the affair.
> 
> The truth is the BS - has zero interest in owning their contributions to the marriage ending.
> 
> And when the BS does some bad stuff as a single person - it's never their fault.


Each person brings their own demons into a relationship, and there are always outside pressures. So building a strong relationship is some combination of working to meet each other's needs, keeping your own demons in check, and responding appropriately to external pressures on the marriage.


----------



## Emmi

jld said:


> I am sure it feels crushing, like you don't even know the person.


It is so much more than this, you clearly can't even begin to comprehend the devastation.



> I think some affairs really have nothing to do with the BS, like when there is same sex cheating, or certain types of serial cheating.


Suggesting that these are the only types of affairs where the BS is blameless is preposterous, I am so baffled by the lack of insight that lies behind this statement that I don't even know what to say. What about people suffering from mental illness or psychological problems who lose their inhibitions? Or someone going through a midlife crisis? I'm sure there are many examples that didn't involve serial cheating or same sex cheating where the BS could not have done anything to prevent it.



> But I think in other affairs the BS knows when they have neglected or taken their spouse for granted. They know they have a hand in their own troubles. I think that is often when some cling so tightly to the "100% on the cheater" mantra.


My husband is ill with chronic pain, he is the sole provider and our income is quite limited. We have some friends where the husband is the sole provider but wife is the one who is ill, in both cases our husbands were the ones cheating. Mine a one time physical thing with a female friend, hers an EA, I don't know the details of it. There is nothing either of us could have done. She couldn't decide to get well, return to work and take the pressure of her husband. And I couldn't cure my husband for his physical condition nor his issues from his childhood that he's never had a chance at working through until now.



> What is sad that by just acknowledging what they contributed, they could relieve that feeling of victimhood.


When my husband first told me, and was still in the fog, I took everything he said to heart and tried to change myself, as he became himself again we looked at the big picture and both had no doubt that he was 100% to blame, and that I did nothing to push him in that direction or cause him unhappiness in any way. 



> Gosh, it must be awful to feel like a complete victim, no power or influence at all.


I do not consider myself a powerless victim, it's not like you either have a victim mentality or you are responsible for what happened. 

I have power to make the best of the situation going forward, I have the power to guide my husband through his emotional problems, and I have the power to forgive him for his bad choices. 

I did however not have psychic powers, and could not foresee that my husbands bad health would lead to him taking it out on me and building resentment against me until he cheated on me with someone who he had no romantic feelings for what so ever.

The only way I could have prevented anything would be if I despite never having any reason to, went through his Facebook chat, or banned him from leaving the house. Had I done those things, which I never would do, I would have crossed the line and become a jealous and controlling spouse, which I am not. 

So please tell me what could I have done differently without compromising my own character? (I have no interest in discussing our friends situation as I don't know the full story and would like to respect their privacy, I only brought it up because of the important difference in who was the one struggling with illness, and to raise the point that circumstances is not even the main issue, internal issues within the cheater is the only real reason that a person cheat)


----------



## SimplyAmorous

john117 said:


> The oven stack costs $2400 new... It includes a convection oven, warming drawer, and microwave oven. smart idea to get it fixed, in the grand scheme of things. No display no oven incidentally


The most we'd spend on an oven is probably $500.. I don't need all those extras... or all put into one.. the most we've spent on a microwave, probably about $70... we live like the poor I guess.. we do have a beautiful piece of property though.. I guess it's all in what someone wants in life.. 

I do care a great deal & would splurge to own land & a country home...just not all the modern conveniences..


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> The oven stack costs $2400 new... It includes a convection oven, warming drawer, and microwave oven. smart idea to get it fixed, in the grand scheme of things. No display no oven incidentally


John, I think you should have said this right away, that without the display, the oven would not work. That is pretty important info.


----------



## jld

Emmi said:


> Suggesting that these are the only types of affairs where the BS is blameless is preposterous


They are just examples, Emmi. I did not say they were the only ones.



> So please tell me what could I have done differently without compromising my own character? (I have no interest in discussing our friends situation as I don't know the full story and would like to respect their privacy, I only brought it up because of the important difference in who was the one struggling with illness, and to raise the point that circumstances is not even the main issue, internal issues within the cheater is the only real reason that a person cheat)


Maybe nothing. I am not familiar with your story, Emmi. If you say there was nothing you could have done, and your spouse is 100% to blame, I am happy to leave it at that.


----------



## larry.gray

I can relate the value of $100 and take it back on topic.

A few years ago I was in SE China for a few weeks on business. I was outside the hotel waiting for a car service to pick me up when this young, well dressed attractive woman started chatting me up. Where are you from, what are you doing here, etc.... After a bit she offers that for 400 RMB (about $63) she'll spend the night in my room all night and do whatever I ask.

I politely declined. I also see how darn easy it would be to cheat while traveling like that, and the ONLY risk of ever getting caught would be to catch an untreatable STD.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> John, I think you should have said this right away, that without the display, the oven would not work. That is pretty important info.


True - except that oven sees less action than I do  so it's something that would be fixed when we sell... There's a second kitchen in the lower level.


----------



## anonmd

john117 said:


> True - except that oven sees less action than I do  so it's something that would be fixed when we sell... There's a second kitchen in the lower level.


Ahh, second ovens. An illustration of my operating vs. capital cost point:smile2:. 

We too have a fancy second wall oven, only one kitchen in our McMansion though. Ours was 4 grand, I'm quite sure that was an excessive builder option price. It was something the little women 'needed' though so I said yes, easily. One of the few excesses in the whole purchase, we took the included granite look formica for instance knowing the 12K they wanted for granite could be easily halved at a later date if she really wanted stone. 

Anyway, 9 years later let's be generous and say both ovens get used simultaniously perhaps 4 times a year? She feels good operating so many high powered appliances that the wheel on the electric meter spins so fast it almost comes apart:grin2: and we are at about $100 per use on the thing. But hey, it was only a dollar or two a month extra at time of purchase.

Fortunately I do get more action than the oven0


----------



## jld

anonmd said:


> Ahh, second ovens. An illustration of my operating vs. capital cost point:smile2:.
> 
> We too have a fancy second wall oven, only one kitchen in our McMansion though. Ours was 4 grand, I'm quite sure that was an excessive builder option price. It was something the little women 'needed' though so I said yes, easily. One of the few excesses in the whole purchase, we took the included granite look formica for instance knowing the 12K they wanted for granite could be easily halved at a later date if she really wanted stone.
> 
> Anyway, 9 years later let's be generous and say both ovens get used simultaniously perhaps 4 times a year? She feels good operating so many high powered appliances that the wheel on the electric meter spins so fast it almost comes apart:grin2: and we are at about $100 per use on the thing. But hey, it was only a dollar or two a month extra at time of purchase.
> 
> Fortunately I do get more action than the oven0


Wow, what do you think of that, @SimplyAmorous? A $4000 oven!

I didn't even know they could be that expensive!


----------



## MEM2020

SA,

You have phenomenal values. Half the men on this board would marry you on the spot - if they were available and (God forbid) S2 got hit by lightning. 

The other half would just want to date you before proposing. 

I'm in the former group. 

And FWIW - there was only one ugly thing in the house when we moved in in 2003 - the Dining room chandelier. A few months ago we talked about it - still being as ugly as it was that day 13 years back we moved in.

I only said one thing - I don't want a big fancy crystal thing. That was my sole input. 

Couple weeks later M2 shows me a page full of chandelier pictures. I say damn - THAT one is perfect - point to this unusual shaped light. She says - that's the one. It was $350. We both love that thing. 





SimplyAmorous said:


> The most we'd spend on an oven is probably $500.. I don't need all those extras... or all put into one.. the most we've spent on a microwave, probably about $70... we live like the poor I guess.. we do have a beautiful piece of property though.. I guess it's all in what someone wants in life..
> 
> I do care a great deal & would splurge to own land & a country home...just not all the modern conveniences..


----------



## SimplyAmorous

jld said:


> Wow, what do you think of that, @SimplyAmorous? A $4000 oven!
> 
> I didn't even know they could be that expensive!


Makes me *not* want to be in the company of the rich & famous as they would only see people like us living like paupers.. .

I seen this on TV today... Driver's Mercedes crunches $300,000 Ferrari at Virginia car cafe - .. 

I just shake my head.. should I feel bad ?? Husband just says the repairs to that man would be a drop in the bucket... meanwhile the great majority raises a family on what a couple fenders may cost on a luxurious sports car...

Nothing surprises me- what people will pay... the Kardashians Flush is worth $750,000... I remember reading about their gold plated toilets somewhere years ago....if people got money to burn... see what wonderful use they put it to.... Oh even they were "cheap".... this right here is the most expensive toilet ever made ...



"Pictured here is the world's most expensive gold toilet, the $5 million Hang Fung Gold Toilet"..." taken from this article 

One of our biggest gripes is ever increasing GREED in our world today... how CEO's line their pockets, while running a company into the ground even... when they have *the power* to do "right" ...to treat others fairly...the CEO's where my husband works are making a killing off of the backs of hard working men & women .....they conveniently raised their BONUS's a couple million with all the layoff's...(no he corrected me.. it was 3 million -for one of them anyway)...

Last week, they threw a company dinner for the guys left at his work place.. stating it was "to raise Morale"...after they just cut every co-worker but 3 in his department.... what a F***king joke.

These sort of things burn us...but we're just the little people.. insignificant.. we'll come along with our beat up Cr-V with 200,0000 miles on it & our 19 yr old Suburban.. and we think we have it GOOD !! 








This was more than you asked for @jld !! Sorry to get carried away.


----------



## anonmd

jld said:


> Wow, what do you think of that, @SimplyAmorous? A $4000 oven!
> 
> I didn't even know they could be that expensive!


Eh, as I said -builder prices. Oh, it did include the microwave in the stack. Overstated by something between 30 and 50%, the options more appealing to the women have the higher markup I think. Then they advertise 'specials' like $20K in FREE options! It may have even been $40K at the time, 2007 was a tough time to sell houses. 

My real estate advice for the day, if you are offered free options choose the ones involving bigger square footage and a bigger basement that results. More bang for the buck. Fancy faucets seemed to be the biggest ripoff, 300-400% of the retail price. They claimed the difference was installation, even though you were already paying to install the stock stuff


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> Makes me *not* want to be in the company of the rich & famous as they would only see people like us living like paupers.. .
> 
> I seen this on TV today... Driver's Mercedes crunches $300,000 Ferrari at Virginia car cafe - ..
> 
> I just shake my head.. should I feel bad ?? Husband just says the repairs to that man would be a drop in the bucket... meanwhile the great majority raises a family on what a couple fenders may cost on a luxurious sports car...
> 
> Nothing surprises me- what people will pay... the Kardashians Flush is worth $750,000... I remember reading about their gold plated toilets somewhere years ago....if people got money to burn... see what wonderful use they put it to.... Oh even they were "cheap".... this right here is the most expensive toilet ever made ...
> 
> 
> 
> "Pictured here is the world's most expensive gold toilet, the $5 million Hang Fung Gold Toilet"..." taken from this article
> 
> One of our biggest gripes is ever increasing GREED in our world today... how CEO's line their pockets, while running a company into the ground even... when they have *the power* to do "right" ...to treat others fairly...the CEO's where my husband works are making a killing off of the backs of hard working men & women .....they conveniently raised their BONUS's a couple million with all the layoff's...(no he corrected me.. it was 3 million -for one of them anyway)...
> 
> Last week, they threw a company dinner for the guys left at his work place.. stating it was "to raise Morale"...after they just cut every co-worker but 3 in his department.... what a F***king joke.
> 
> These sort of things burn us...but we're just the little people.. insignificant.. we'll come along with our beat up Cr-V with 200,0000 miles on it & our 19 yr old Suburban.. and we think we have it GOOD !!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This was more than you asked for @jld !! Sorry to get carried away.


It is not how much money you have that is important. It is how happy you are.


----------



## larry.gray

jld said:


> It is not how much money you have that is important. It is how happy you are.


Yes, but if you're loaded and miserable, you're an idiot.

As much as people want to be pragmatic about money, much of life's stress and contension centers around money. Richer means more to worry about to an extent, but having lots and still worrying about it is just stupid.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> Wow, what do you think of that, @SimplyAmorous? A $4000 oven!
> 
> I didn't even know they could be that expensive!


Try Viking, $10k and worth every penny.


----------



## jld

larry.gray said:


> Yes, but if you're loaded and miserable, you're an idiot.
> 
> As much as people want to be pragmatic about money, much of life's stress and contension centers around money. Richer means more to worry about to an extent, but having lots and still worrying about it is just stupid.


That was my point to MEM this morning. It seems like he worries about money a lot more than Dug and I, and we have much less than he does.

Just my pov, MEM.


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Try Viking, $10k and worth every penny.


Wow!


----------



## 225985

Is @Cletus even here anymore? When did the topic change to toilets and ovens?


----------



## Maricha75

Ugh. I am watching this exchange regarding the cost of these appliances and I have to be honest... I do NOT see the point in paying $4k or even $10k on a stove/oven/microwave/whatever... seriously? Wth is wrong with just a simple stove, fan, and microwave combo? Food cooks just as well on a cheaper stove. Smh. Such a waste of money, IMO.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> Ugh. I am watching this exchange regarding the cost of these appliances and I have to be honest... I do NOT see the point in paying $4k or even $10k on a stove/oven/microwave/whatever... seriously? Wth is wrong with just a simple stove, fan, and microwave combo? Food cooks just as well on a cheaper stove. Smh. Such a waste of money, IMO.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


We have a Maytag Gemini. We use the smaller, upper oven almost exclusively. We all love how quickly it heats up, with little wasted energy.

The stovetop is easy to clean. That is nice, too.

Only $1100.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> We have a Maytag Gemini. We use the smaller, upper oven almost exclusively. We all love how quickly it heats up, with little wasted energy.
> 
> The stovetop is easy to clean. That is nice, too.
> 
> Only $1100.


See, $1000, give or take a couple hundred, I can understand. But I just cannot fathom dropping $10k on an appliance. If I had to spend that much on a stove, I would build a fire pit and cook my food that way. Seriously.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> See, $1000, give or take a couple hundred, I can understand. But I just cannot fathom dropping $10k on an appliance. If I had to spend that much on a stove, I would build a fire pit and cook my food that way. Seriously.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Yeah, that's amazing.
@john117, what makes it worth it?


----------



## john117

How good of a cook are you? The majority of people buying those aren't quite the chefs but if you're good at it you do get far better performance and accuracy.


----------



## Maricha75

john117 said:


> How good of a cook are you? The majority of people buying those aren't quite the chefs but if you're good at it you do get far better performance and accuracy.


I'm certainly no chef, but I do experiment a lot. And I enjoy baking. I have had no issue with performance and accuracy with my MUCH less expensive appliances. Sorry, but there is nothing anyone can say that will ever convince me that dropping $10k on an appliance is "worth every penny". Especially if one claims to be "thrifty". Sorry, but those two sentiments do NOT go together, IME.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> How good of a cook are you? Let's put it this way: A friend once told me my cooking is unpretentious, and she noted I don't pretend otherwise. The majority of people buying those aren't quite the chefs but if you're good at it you do get far better performance and accuracy. Can you give an example?


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> I'm certainly no chef, but I do experiment a lot. And I enjoy baking. I have had no issue with performance and accuracy with my MUCH less expensive appliances. Sorry, but there is nothing anyone can say that will ever convince me that dropping $10k on an appliance is "worth every penny". Especially if one claims to be "thrifty". Sorry, but those two sentiments do NOT go together, IME.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Just out of curiosity, what do you like to bake, Maricha?


----------



## Cletus

blueinbr said:


> Is @Cletus even here anymore? When did the topic change to toilets and ovens?


Just biding my time. Someone will come along who wants to contribute to the original discussion thread yet.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> Just out of curiosity, what do you like to bake, Maricha?


Cake, pies, breads, cookies, usually. And, some meals require baking, as well, so I bake that sort of thing, too. All in an "old" gas oven that was provided by the owners of the apartment community we live in. 😊

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> Just biding my time. Someone will come along who wants to contribute to the original discussion thread yet.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


I asked you a question several pages back. Did you see it?


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> Cake, pies, breads, cookies, usually. And, some meals require baking, as well, so I bake that sort of thing, too. All in an "old" gas oven that was provided by the owners of the apartment community we live in. 😊
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


I don't usually bake because we eat it all so quickly. Keeping it out of the house keeps us (a little bit) slimmer.

Plus it is always good when I buy it. Not always when we make it ourselves.


----------



## john117

Not $10k, but $3-$4k easily. Uniform heat and very precise temperature are what matters. Plus durability. 

Baking things like souffle, cheese cake from scratch, Italian or French foods, etc. We tried those in DD's apartment with more modest appliances and it's definitely more variation. 

To try to return the thread to its pre hijacked position, spending control is part of an overall plan that both people need to agree on. I'm frugal for small things but not for larger things - the value must be there. 

In our neighborhood everyone has higher end to high end appliances. Without those you can't sell the house. Frugality comes into play when you choose stuff that looks good, does the job, lasts, and impresses prospective buyers... no need to spend $10k or $4k even, we did quite well for 2400$...

But, that was back then when we actually agreed on things... Not today.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> Just biding my time. Someone will come along who wants to contribute to the original discussion thread yet.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


This thread really has been a bright, open space here in CWI, btw. Lots of honest, intellectually stimulating discussion. Thanks for starting it, and letting it meander.


----------



## jld

Here is the question, @Cletus:



jld said:


> Cletus, did you and your ex know it would be just a ONS? Was there any thought on either of your parts of continuing it?


----------



## jld

john117 said:


> Not $10k, but $3-$4k easily. Uniform heat and very precise temperature are what matters. Plus durability.
> 
> Baking things like souffle, cheese cake from scratch, Italian or French foods, etc. We tried those in DD's apartment with more modest appliances and it's definitely more variation.
> 
> To try to return the thread to its pre hijacked position, spending control is part of an overall plan that both people need to agree on. I'm frugal for small things but not for larger things - the value must be there.
> 
> In our neighborhood everyone has higher end to high end appliances. Without those you can't sell the house. Frugality comes into play when you choose stuff that looks good, does the job, lasts, and impresses prospective buyers... no need to spend $10k or $4k even, we did quite well for 2400$...
> 
> But, that was back then when we actually agreed on things... Not today.


It is definitely important to be financially responsible. But we want to enjoy life, too. 

Your upper middle class life sounds kind of stressful.


----------



## sapientia

2ntnuf said:


> Why is it you believe I think in black and white? Because I sometimes give examples from my life experiences when I post?
> 
> You've just given an example of binary thinking, Sap. You can't see what is behind a post. You can't see the thoughts so you choose to believe negatively. You refuse to consider any other thoughts.
> 
> You are very arrogant, Sap. You obviously don't know me. You want me to tell you what happened because you can't figure out what is going on, but you post like you do.
> 
> Are you certain you know why your marriage failed?


Hey, no need to resort to personal attacks. If you don't want to answer the question, just say so.

I'm not going to answer your questions because you have lost objectivity and are taking things personally. You don't really want to know what I think, anyway.

My marriage failed so that I could meet my absolutely magnificent husband. :grin2:


----------



## Ceegee

sapientia said:


> Hey, no need to resort to personal attacks. If you don't want to answer the question, just say so.
> 
> I'm not going to answer your questions because you have lost objectivity and are taking things personally. You don't really want to know what I think, anyway.
> 
> My marriage failed so that I could meet my absolutely magnificent husband. :grin2:




Your initial post was snarky. 

In return, you received a snarky response. 

Hardly surprising. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## sapientia

Ceegee said:


> Your initial post was snarky.
> 
> In return, you received a snarky response.
> 
> Hardly surprising.


Snarky is a matter of interpretation. I was asking a legit question.

But that last was an actual insult. Folks get banned for that here. I won't report it, but @EleGirl and @MEM11363 are both posting in this thread.

Anyway, are you related to 2ntnuf, or are you just a Bandwagon Bully?


----------



## 225985

sapientia said:


> Snarky is a matter of interpretation. I was asking a legit question.
> 
> But that last was an actual insult. Folks get banned for that here. I won't report it, but @EleGirl and @MEM11363 are both posting in this thread.
> 
> Anyway, are you related to 2ntnuf, or are you just a Bandwagon Bully?




Maybe if a lot of people are telling you the same thing, it might be true. 

This is a help site. You can accept the feedback and learn something from it. Or not. That is your choice.


----------



## john117

jld said:


> It is definitely important to be financially responsible. But we want to enjoy life, too.
> 
> Your upper middle class life sounds kind of stressful.


Nah, stressful is a 20 lb cat determined to wreak havoc in the family room. 

Public Service Announcement: if you want the furniture to survive, go to Lowe's or Home Depot and get painter's canvas cloth. Beige color, it's quite cat claw proof  and washable. 

We don't stress a lot about money for the present really. It's the future that worries me.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,
There's the mechanics of money management and then separate from that the spirit of financial decisions. 

When money is very tight - the mechanics dominate. If you don't pay bills on time - credit scores tank and/or services get disconnected. If I buy X, there isn't enough for you to buy Y. 

When you earn double what you spend, the spirit of the decisions, the emotions around them begins to matter more. 

Being generous - in those situations - a good way to show love. Being cheap with your partner in the land of plenty can be a good way to create friction.

Controlling people often use money as a proxy for power. 

So our financial conflicts were about power, not about resources. M2 would radiate disapproval at me - and I would respond - in a manner that was wholly counterproductive. 

That's close to totally gone now.
1. I'm patient with M2 and give her time to accept/embrace. 
2. Worst thing that happens if she still radiates disapproval after having some time is I ask her: Are you really gonna take the fun out of me doing this?

(2) The tone isnt angry, its just a question. 

M2 has apologized a few times for acting in a financially untrusting manner without any rational basis for it. 





jld said:


> That was my point to MEM this morning. It seems like he worries about money a lot more than Dug and I, and we have much less than he does.
> 
> Just my pov, MEM.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

Do you actually think I get mad at M2 about how she spends money?

I don't. She is very responsible with her spending. When she wants to splurge now and then I tell her to have fun. 

She doesn't have to ask for either permission or forgiveness. When she does ask - I have only said no - to a beach house as a vacation home. 




jld said:


> That was my point to MEM this morning. It seems like he worries about money a lot more than Dug and I, and we have much less than he does.
> 
> Just my pov, MEM.


----------



## MEM2020

@Ceegee @blueinbr @2ntnuf

Kindly ratchet back your tone with Sapientia. I catalyzed this particular inflammatory - topic of BS responsibility - and am not enjoying her being the recipient of the animated reaction to my posts. 

You are all welcome to continue to share your dim view of my thesis - directly with me. 

I do want to clarify one point which is this. In my opinion, there are situations where the marriage is good to very good - and the WS is placed in close and repeated proximity to someone they really click with - at work. I DO think that those situations are fairly common and result in the BS being utterly and legitimately shocked on D day. 





Ceegee said:


> Your initial post was snarky.
> 
> In return, you received a snarky response.
> 
> Hardly surprising.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> Do you actually think I get mad at M2 about how she spends money?
> 
> I don't. She is very responsible with her spending. When she wants to splurge now and then I tell her to have fun.
> 
> She doesn't have to ask for either permission or forgiveness. When she does ask - I have only said no - to a beach house as a vacation home.


No, it's not that. It's just that I see you making reference to money sometimes in ways that surprise me. 

I don't really understand how your and M2's control issues played out with money, either. To me, if you have plenty, who cares about saving $40 on scooters? Or discusses the Visa bill with their spouse at the end of the month, instead of just paying it and forgetting about it?

I do wonder, though, if maybe the more money some people have, the more they actually do look at the details. I just do not understand it.

Anyway, MEM, the point was to just enjoy your money, and enjoy your life.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> In my opinion, there are situations where the marriage is good to very good - and the WS is placed in close and repeated proximity to someone they really click with - at work. I DO think that those situations are fairly common and result in the BS being utterly and legitimately shocked on D day.


That has got to be hard. And they are probably wondering if they married the wrong person, even while feeling gratitude to their spouse, probably especially for the children.

Did M2 ever come to you before you sold the business and just transparently share her feelings, just completely spill out her heart to you about what was going on?

And MEM, did Dan ever confess any feelings for her to her? Were you aware of any chemistry between them?


----------



## Ceegee

Fair enough.



MEM11363 said:


> @Ceegee
> @blueinbr
> @2ntnuf
> 
> Kindly ratchet back your tone with Sapientia. I catalyzed this particular inflammatory - topic of BS responsibility - and am not enjoying her being the recipient of the animated reaction to my posts.


There are marriages where this can work and there are marriages where this cannot.

The workplace is a dangerous place these days for marriages. 

My XW hesitantly told me about an older man who was hitting on her. Little did I know she was already involved with OM.

My current GF used to work there as well and she told me about all of the cheating that goes on there. 

It is a very large company and I have many friends (male and female) whose marriages became victims of this workplace.

My views on the subject of wives/mothers working has changed as a result.

I do very well on my own. A second income is not necessary.

More important to me is a solid foundation at home. 

Knowing what I know now, I probably would have chosen a wife that shared this view. 

This is not a statement about women in the workplace. It's a statement about what I need as a partner.



> I do want to clarify one point which is this. In my opinion, there are situations where the marriage is good to very good - and the WS is placed in close and repeated proximity to someone they really click with - at work. I DO think that those situations are fairly common and result in the BS being utterly and legitimately shocked on D day.


----------



## jld

Ceegee said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> There are marriages where this can work and there are marriages where this cannot.
> 
> The workplace is a dangerous place these days for marriages.
> 
> My XW hesitantly told me about an older man who was hitting on her. Little did I know she was already involved with OM.
> 
> My current GF used to work there as well and she told me about all of the cheating that goes on there.
> 
> It is a very large company and I have many friends (male and female) whose marriages became victims of this workplace.
> 
> My views on the subject of wives/mothers working has changed as a result.
> 
> I do very well on my own. A second income is not necessary.
> 
> More important to me is a solid foundation at home.
> 
> Knowing what I know now, I probably would have chosen a wife that shared this view.
> 
> This is not a statement about women in the workplace. It's a statement about what I need as a partner.


While I am all for wives/mothers being able to stay home, I don't think it should be out of fear on either side. It is not like SAHW/Ms have never been known to have affairs.

I do understand that limiting temptation can be helpful, though.

There is really no substitute for a strong emotional connection between husband and wife. That is the best insurance against cheating, imo.

Whenever I feel attracted to another man, I tell Dug. That seems to take the power out of it.


----------



## Ceegee

jld said:


> While I am all for wives/mothers being able to stay home, I don't think it should be out of fear on either side. It is not like SAHW/Ms have never been known to have affairs.
> 
> I do understand that limiting temptation can be helpful, though.
> 
> There is really no substitute for a strong emotional connection between husband and wife. That is the best insurance against cheating, imo.
> 
> Whenever I feel attracted to another man, I tell Dug. That seems to take the power out of it.


My opinion is really not based on any fear.

I have 3 kids aged 15, 13 and 10.

For the last 4 years (age 11, 9 and 6) they have stayed at home by themselves during the summer months when in their mothers care while she's at work.

This is not what I want for my children.

Add to that the increased chance of inappropriate relationships and it just seems to be a bad idea when you don't need the money.

Some people are career driven and some are not.

I would probably have taken this into more consideration if given another chance.


----------



## farsidejunky

Ceegee said:


> Your initial post was snarky.
> 
> In return, you received a snarky response.
> 
> Hardly surprising.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is true, Sapi.


----------



## EllisRedding

Cletus said:


> Just biding my time. Someone will come along who wants to contribute to the original discussion thread yet.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


So to get back On Topic 

You mentioned you were worried about contracting an STD and was avoiding your W until you got test results back (what lead to your disclosure). So, after you cheated you didn't engage in sex with your W until you were 100% confident you didn't contract an STD?


----------



## 225985

Ceegee said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are marriages where this can work and there are marriages where this cannot.
> 
> 
> 
> The workplace is a dangerous place these days for marriages.
> 
> 
> 
> My XW hesitantly told me about an older man who was hitting on her. Little did I know she was already involved with OM.
> 
> 
> 
> .



In one of your other threads you said your wife did not cheat. But she was involved with OM while still married to you? Isn't that cheating?


----------



## farsidejunky

MEM11363 said:


> @Ceegee
> @blueinbr
> @2ntnuf
> 
> Kindly ratchet back your tone with Sapientia. I catalyzed this particular inflammatory - topic of BS responsibility - and am not enjoying her being the recipient of the animated reaction to my posts.
> 
> You are all welcome to continue to share your dim view of my thesis - directly with me.
> 
> I do want to clarify one point which is this. In my opinion, there are situations where the marriage is good to very good - and the WS is placed in close and repeated proximity to someone they really click with - at work. I DO think that those situations are fairly common and result in the BS being utterly and legitimately shocked on D day.


Mem:

The balance of the scales in this is questionable. 

Out of respect for your moderator position, this is the last I will say on it.


----------



## Ceegee

blueinbr said:


> In one of your other threads you said your wife did not cheat. But she was involved with OM while still married to you? Isn't that cheating?


I would like to know the post you are referencing.

If really old (like when I started posting here) then that may have been before I had proof.

Sounds like perfect example, though, of how gaslit I was.


----------



## jld

Ceegee said:


> My opinion is really not based on any fear.
> 
> I have 3 kids aged 15, 13 and 10.
> 
> For the last 4 years (age 11, 9 and 6) they have stayed at home by themselves during the summer months when in their mothers care while she's at work.
> 
> This is not what I want for my children.
> 
> Add to that the increased chance of inappropriate relationships and it just seems to be a bad idea when you don't need the money.
> 
> Some people are career driven and some are not.
> 
> I would probably have taken this into more consideration if given another chance.


Dug told me the first week we were dating that he wanted us to breastfeed and homeschool our children. It let me know right off what he expected. If I did not feel I could comply, it would have been my chance to end the relationship.

Having a sahm makes family life much easier and less stressful, I think. 

But whether both parents work or not, I think there needs to be transparency in the relationship. I cannot imagine a secure emotional connection in marriage without transparency on both sides.


----------



## 225985

Ceegee said:


> I would like to know the post you are referencing.
> 
> 
> 
> If really old (like when I started posting here) then that may have been before I had proof.
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like perfect example, though, of how gaslit I was.




June 2013. Why are you in GTDS so much. I assumed from that post you were already going through D.


----------



## Ceegee

blueinbr said:


> June 2013. Why are you in GTDS so much. I assumed from that post you were already going through D.


Where is this going?


----------



## 225985

Ceegee said:


> Where is this going?



No where. I was interested in your story and could not follow the timeline. Probably should have done a PM. Sorry. I will move on.


----------



## Ceegee

blueinbr said:


> No where. I was interested in your story and could not follow the timeline. Probably should have done a PM. Sorry. I will move on.




No worries. 

PM if you'd like. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

June 2013. I was reading your thread called "Why are you in GTDS so much."


----------



## EllisRedding

Ceegee said:


> My opinion is really not based on any fear.
> 
> I have 3 kids aged 15, 13 and 10.
> 
> For the last 4 years (age 11, 9 and 6) they have stayed at home by themselves during the summer months when in their mothers care while she's at work.
> 
> This is not what I want for my children.
> 
> Add to that the increased chance of inappropriate relationships and it just seems to be a bad idea when you don't need the money.
> 
> Some people are career driven and some are not.
> 
> I would probably have taken this into more consideration if given another chance.


In my situation, we are fortunate enough to not need a 2nd income, so for us, my W switching to being a SAHM (vs working which she was doing until after our 2nd child) made the most sense instead of relying on a stranger to look after our children.


----------



## 225985

Having the wife stay home does not eliminate the risk. The husband can have a inappropriate relationship with coworkers. And as we see here often SAHMs do find a ways to have affairs. 

Is the solution to lock away the wife?


----------



## MEM2020

She tried to tell me in her own indirect way plenty of times. I was steadfastly in denial.

Which is why I have no trust issues with her. 





jld said:


> That has got to be hard. And they are probably wondering if they married the wrong person, even while feeling gratitude to their spouse, probably especially for the children.
> 
> Did M2 ever come to you before you sold the business and just transparently share her feelings, just completely spill out her heart to you about what was going on?
> 
> And MEM, did Dan ever confess any feelings for her to her? Were you aware of any chemistry between them?


----------



## MEM2020

1. Pick a good person
2. Treat them well
3. Learn their non verbal communication style 
4. Give transparency - to model that behavior
5. Accept that if you aren't really compatible including sexually - the odds of affair go WAY up
6. And last but first - don't make their behavior about you 





blueinbr said:


> Having the wife stay home does not eliminate the risk. The husband can have a inappropriate relationship with coworkers. And as we see here often SAHMs do find a ways to have affairs.
> 
> Is the solution to lock away the wife?


----------



## Ceegee

How I see it...



MEM11363 said:


> 6. And last but first - don't make their behavior about you
> 2. Treat them well
> 3. Learn their non verbal communication style
> 4. Give transparency - to model that behavior
> 5. Accept that if you aren't really compatible including sexually - the odds of affair go WAY up
> 1. Pick a good person (People Change)


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> She tried to tell me in her own indirect way plenty of times. *I was steadfastly in denial.*
> 
> Which is why I have no trust issues with her.


Why do you think that was?


----------



## Cletus

EllisRedding said:


> So to get back On Topic
> 
> You mentioned you were worried about contracting an STD and was avoiding your W until you got test results back (what lead to your disclosure). So, after you cheated you didn't engage in sex with your W until you were 100% confident you didn't contract an STD?


The story is more convoluted than that, but the basic premise is sound. I was awaiting my first (false) positive test results when she tried to initiate sex and I turned her down. I think by the second time I had to come clean on why.


----------



## LosingHim

blueinbr said:


> Having the wife stay home does not eliminate the risk. The husband can have a inappropriate relationship with coworkers. And as we see here often SAHMs do find a ways to have affairs.
> 
> Is the solution to lock away the wife?


Work place affairs/sexual tension – ugh. 

I somehow ended up working at a company that has some REALLY attractive people. I remember telling my mom my first month here that I was so shocked how beautiful the women that worked here were and that there were SO many of them for a company that only employed 150 people. 

Through my years here, I’ve been approached by a few different scenarios that totally push sexuality in the work place. I don’t partake in it, but it’s rampant.

The first was my boss (female) asking me what my votes would be for a 12 month calendar of ‘hot men’ who work here. Apparently, some of the women had been discussing ‘how hot’ some of the guys that worked here were and that they wanted to make a calendar of all the ‘hot guys’ topless. I’d never looked at my coworkers that way #1. #2 why would I get involved in that? We have what I consider a whopping 2 attractive guys that work here. One looks like Nick Jonas. One is just pleasant to look at. But I’ve never looked at them and sexualized them. It’s always just been more of that natural – “oh, he’s good looking” reaction when you see someone attractive and nothing more. But apparently these women had had entire discussions and ranked each of the guys in order and as a joke were trying to compile and employee calendar.

The second was one day I was out in the shop and I walked by someone who handles materials and he looked at me and said “YOU’RE the MVP!” and started clapping. I had no idea what he was talking about and this guy rarely talks to me so I was standing there with a confused look on my face. When he said it, a bunch of other guys started cracking up and clapping. I found out later that there had been a “poll” out in the shop of who the guys thought was the “hottest” woman who worked here. Apparently it came down to me and one other girl, but I had won by a vote. The guy that told me thought that I would think it was an ‘honor’. My response was “I’m a married woman, take me out of that competition”.

That crap isn’t an honor. I don’t want to vote about the ‘hottest’ men that I work with. I just want to come to work and do my job, make my money and go home. I could EASILY see affairs boiling here with how sexually charged it is with crap like that. In my opinion – the GREATEST threat to having an affair is mixed sex work places and connecting with exes on social media.


----------



## jld

LosingHim said:


> In my opinion – the GREATEST threat to having an affair is mixed sex work places and *connecting with exes on social media*.


After 37 years of marriage, my sister's husband reconnected with his high school girlfriend on Facebook. Within months they were in an affair, and he and my sister began divorce proceedings.

That was 3 years ago, and my sister has never been happier!

She would never have left him because of her religious beliefs, but the relationship had always been rocky. He liberated her with that divorce. But he might never have had the courage to do it without linking up with that gal on Facebook.

My sister is finally loving life. She moved to a warm place, has a job she loves, and is heavily involved with a huge church. Apart from not seeing her grandchildren as often as she would like, she is now living her dream life.

I hope her former husband and his girlfriend are equally as happy!


----------



## Cletus

LosingHim said:


> Work place affairs/sexual tension – ugh.


I was wondering what some of you folks were talking about. I'm in high tech - between the over-representation of men, the semi-annual sexual harassment training, and the fear of a lawsuit, my workplace has always been the least sexual place on the planet. I can't even imagine an affair happening here, we're so trained to see everyone in gender neutral terms. 

I surprised your workplace hasn't been sued by someone over this.


----------



## john117

True... Not to mention the lack of female employees 

My team has some nice looking interns but only one female employee out of a dozen or so... 

Used to be a great dating scene 30 years ago with many dual couples but not any more.


----------



## larry.gray

LosingHim said:


> Work place affairs/sexual tension – ugh.
> 
> I somehow ended up working at a company that has some REALLY attractive people. I remember telling my mom my first month here that I was so shocked how beautiful the women that worked here were and that there were SO many of them for a company that only employed 150 people.
> 
> Through my years here, I’ve been approached by a few different scenarios that totally push sexuality in the work place. I don’t partake in it, but it’s rampant.
> 
> The first was my boss (female) asking me what my votes would be for a 12 month calendar of ‘hot men’ who work here. Apparently, some of the women had been discussing ‘how hot’ some of the guys that worked here were and that they wanted to make a calendar of all the ‘hot guys’ topless. I’d never looked at my coworkers that way #1. #2 why would I get involved in that? We have what I consider a whopping 2 attractive guys that work here. One looks like Nick Jonas. One is just pleasant to look at. But I’ve never looked at them and sexualized them. It’s always just been more of that natural – “oh, he’s good looking” reaction when you see someone attractive and nothing more. But apparently these women had had entire discussions and ranked each of the guys in order and as a joke were trying to compile and employee calendar.
> 
> The second was one day I was out in the shop and I walked by someone who handles materials and he looked at me and said “YOU’RE the MVP!” and started clapping. I had no idea what he was talking about and this guy rarely talks to me so I was standing there with a confused look on my face. When he said it, a bunch of other guys started cracking up and clapping. I found out later that there had been a “poll” out in the shop of who the guys thought was the “hottest” woman who worked here. Apparently it came down to me and one other girl, but I had won by a vote. The guy that told me thought that I would think it was an ‘honor’. My response was “I’m a married woman, take me out of that competition”.
> 
> That crap isn’t an honor. I don’t want to vote about the ‘hottest’ men that I work with. I just want to come to work and do my job, make my money and go home. I could EASILY see affairs boiling here with how sexually charged it is with crap like that. In my opinion – the GREATEST threat to having an affair is mixed sex work places and connecting with exes on social media.


When you hear the words "sexualized hostile workplace" this is what the EEOC means. Document this ****. If they ever fire or lay you off, take them to the cleaners.

If I ever got wind of something like this, I would be in the HR office so freaking fast. My employer would fire all involved parties in a heartbeat.

As a manager, I look at it from the perspective "would I want my daughter treated that way?" If the answer is no, I have a duty to act.


----------



## LosingHim

Cletus said:


> I was wondering what some of you folks were talking about. I'm in high tech - between the over-representation of men, the semi-annual sexual harassment training, and the fear of a lawsuit, my workplace has always been the least sexual place on the planet. I can't even imagine an affair happening here, we're so trained to see everyone in gender neutral terms.
> 
> I surprised your workplace hasn't been sued by someone over this.


Now that you bring it up, I’ve been here 6 years last month. The company only recognizes it as 5 years because I didn’t get hired in until April, but I was a temp for 10 months prior. But that’s not part of the story really, just my long winded way of telling stories…but anyway…….in the 6 years I’ve been here, we have NEVER had sexual harassment training, or for that matter, had anyone sued for sexual harassment either. Part of that could be that the original owner of the company died a long time back – shot by a prostitute in his car. Maybe the sexualized culture around here has just always been accepted because of how the original owner was? Who knows? I just ignore it.

We do have a TON of couples here though, and MANY of them met working here. I think the most screwed up one though was the HR Generalist who is married to one of our suppliers. She and her husband separated a few years back and she started dating the General Manager. That didn’t work out and she went back to her husband – who is STILL a supplier for us. Talk about awkward…..

It is almost impossible to get through a day here without some sort of sexual comment though due to the nature of what we make. Some of our parts are diaphragms, balls, shafts and nipples. Obviously that stirs up some snickering occasionally, but it CAN get out of hand quickly….


----------



## Cletus

LosingHim said:


> Part of that could be that the original owner of the company died a long time back – shot by a prostitute in his car. Maybe the sexualized culture around here has just always been accepted because of how the original owner was? Who knows? I just ignore it.


:slap:

I don't know which of us works in a more representative place for the country as a whole, but what you're saying here sounds to me highly unusual and inappropriate. 

Now if it doesn't matter to you, I'm not saying you should raise a stink about it. You have a right to be offended I think, but not an obligation. Just know that not every workplace is still stuck in the Mad Men era.

Ah, I see you're in Ohio. I understand  My brother lives in Columbus.


----------



## LosingHim

larry.gray said:


> When you hear the words "sexualized hostile workplace" this is what the EEOC means. Document this ****. If they ever fire or lay you off, take them to the cleaners.
> 
> If I ever got wind of something like this, I would be in the HR office so freaking fast. My employer would fire all involved parties in a heartbeat.
> 
> As a manager, I look at it from the perspective "would I want my daughter treated that way?" If the answer is no, I have a duty to act.


Luckily the calendar incident was at least 3 years ago, if not longer. The boss I had at the time is no longer here, she moved to another state. The 'MVP" comment was at least a year ago. 

I think stuff like this still happens, but due to the fact that I told them I didn't want to be included in their reindeer games - they don't tell me stuff like that anymore. 

I've been involved in an employee getting fired due to sexual harassment at my previous job. Words I kind of just let roll off my back and either brush off or say something similar to 'leave me out of it'. But this other particular incident, I was in the cooler cycle counting flavoring and he came in and threw a bottle of water on me (I was in a white shirt) and then pushed me up against a wall and tried to lift my leg over my head. A bunch of us had been talking at lunch about how I used to be a gymnast and that I could still do the splits. Apparently he'd heard it and wanted to see so he took it upon himself to physically try to make me do it. I didn't hesitate to go to HR with it, he was fired about a week later after being put on leave. Not long after, he blew his brains out in his front yard in front of his fiancé and 5 year old son. He was one different individual.


----------



## Ceegee

LosingHim said:


> Luckily the calendar incident was at least 3 years ago, if not longer. The boss I had at the time is no longer here, she moved to another state. The 'MVP" comment was at least a year ago.
> 
> I think stuff like this still happens, but due to the fact that I told them I didn't want to be included in their reindeer games - they don't tell me stuff like that anymore.
> 
> I've been involved in an employee getting fired due to sexual harassment at my previous job. Words I kind of just let roll off my back and either brush off or say something similar to 'leave me out of it'. But this other particular incident, I was in the cooler cycle counting flavoring and he came in and threw a bottle of water on me (I was in a white shirt) and then pushed me up against a wall and tried to lift my leg over my head. A bunch of us had been talking at lunch about how I used to be a gymnast and that I could still do the splits. Apparently he'd heard it and wanted to see so he took it upon himself to physically try to make me do it. I didn't hesitate to go to HR with it, he was fired about a week later after being put on leave. Not long after, he blew his brains out in his front yard in front of his fiancé and 5 year old son. He was one different individual.



Holy crap.


----------



## TheGoodGuy

MEM11363 said:


> I do want to clarify one point which is this. In my opinion, there are situations where the marriage is good to very good - and the WS is placed in close and repeated proximity to someone they really click with - at work. I DO think that those situations are fairly common and result in the BS being utterly and legitimately shocked on D day.


Yup. I would be a good example of this.


----------



## LosingHim

Cletus said:


> :slap:
> 
> I don't know which of us works in a more representative place for the country as a whole, but what you're saying here sounds to me highly unusual and inappropriate.
> 
> Now if it doesn't matter to you, I'm not saying you should raise a stink about it. You have a right to be offended I think, but not an obligation. Just know that not every workplace is still stuck in the Mad Men era.
> 
> Ah, I see you're in Ohio. I understand  My brother lives in Columbus.


I just ignore it. If it doesn’t involve me, I just go on about my day. Like I said, I’m here to do my job, get my paycheck and go home. I work for one of the bigger companies in town – they treat their employees well, the pay is good, this is considered a great place to be employed. All in all I consider myself lucky to work here given those things – even though I don’t really like what I DO. My options for going somewhere else local, making what I make and having the kind of security I have here are limited. So I just don’t play the games. I rarely fraternize with my coworkers outside of work – once in a few years. I’m friendly to the people who are friendly to me and that’s about it. 

Columbus is about an hour from me. We drive there often for Buckeyes games and a better restaurant selection.


----------



## larry.gray

Cletus said:


> I was wondering what some of you folks were talking about. I'm in high tech - between the over-representation of men, the semi-annual sexual harassment training, and the fear of a lawsuit, my workplace has always been the least sexual place on the planet. I can't even imagine an affair happening here, we're so trained to see everyone in gender neutral terms.


As you know, i'm a tech geek too.
My first 5 years out of school were at a tiny company. The two owners were men of integrity and I saw nothing like this. It never came up, but I strongly suspect they'd deal with things appropriately. 

After that, I was at a mega-corp for 8 years. It was shocking to me how much there was. Not rampant, but there. I knew of incidents of racism, sexism, affairs and homophobic discrimination. HR was really trying to track down, and responded harshly. They fired a hell of a lot of people.

I went to another small company next, and my situation match the first one.


I now work at a different mega-corp and my experience matches yours.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD,

1. Precedent
2. Pride
3. Stupidity (on my part) 

Precedent
In the preceding 20 years - maybe a dozen guys had pursued M2 to a greater or lesser degree. She totally ignored their overtures. Out of that dozen she confessed to feeling lust for two. But:
- those two were only in her presence for a short time
- I treated it as a non event

And thus it was a non event - those two times. 

Pride
Should I say - false pride? Truly at a loss. 

I will frame this in a medevial fashion. I would do just about anything to avoid being in close quarters one on one with a fun, playful, smoking hot woman for three ((3), the number sandwiched by 2 and 4) - years. 

I wish people didn't get so mad at me for admitting my part in what happened. I am merely saying what's true. 

But then - I'm the ultimate heretic. Would NOT have left M2 if she had strayed. Would have been hurt - bad - puked my guts out - cried a river. Wouldn't have left her. 






jld said:


> Why do you think that was?


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> JLD,
> 
> 1. Precedent
> 2. Pride
> 3. Stupidity (on my part)
> 
> Precedent
> In the preceding 20 years - maybe a dozen guys had pursued M2 to a greater or lesser degree. She totally ignored their overtures. Out of that dozen she confessed to feeling lust for two. But:
> - those two were only in her presence for a short time
> - I treated it as a non event
> 
> And thus it was a non event - those two times.
> 
> Pride
> Should I say - false pride? Truly at a loss.
> 
> I will frame this in a medevial fashion. I would do just about anything to avoid being in close quarters one on one with a fun, playful, smoking hot woman for three ((3), the number sandwiched by 2 and 4) - years.
> 
> I wish people didn't get so mad at me for admitting my part in what happened. I am merely saying what's true.
> 
> But then - I'm the ultimate heretic. Would NOT have left M2 if she had strayed. Would have been hurt - bad - puked my guts out - cried a river. Wouldn't have left her.


You really love her. That might be what is missing from those other marriages. 

I still am not exactly sure what you would call your part in it. Just that you did not see her obvious frustration, and did not offer to close the business? Basically your obliviousness, and lack of leadership, and her resulting aloneness in trying to deal with the issue?


----------



## jld

Also, MEM, don't take anyone's anger here personally. Everyone is dealing with their own issues, you know?


----------



## LosingHim

jld said:


> You really love her. That might be what is missing from those other marriages.


That is a VERY, VERY dangerous thing to say.

I’ll admit, I love my husband ENOUGH to put up with a LOT of sh*t, including his EA. And apparently he loves me ENOUGH to put up with my ONS and my other issues. 

But I would never say we love each other MORE than another couple who has split up due to infidelity. That is a highly unfair statement. 

Infidelity leaves DEEP scabs and wounds. What’s the best way to heal a wound? STOP PICKING AT IT! Should you decide to stay together after infidelity, you are going to be picking at that wound for a long time to come. It’ll eventually heal, but the scar is going to be jagged, red and raw. In leaving, you won’t be picking at the scab every day. You’ll still end up with a scar, but it will be soft, pink new flesh. 

That does not mean that those that stay love their spouses more than those that leave, it just means that some people are more willing to deal with the ugly scars.


----------



## sapientia

blueinbr said:


> Maybe if a lot of people are telling you the same thing, it might be true.
> 
> This is a help site. You can accept the feedback and learn something from it. Or not. That is your choice.


I asked for help from this site several years ago when I first joined. I haven't asked for anything recently. I didn't start this thread, and it's not about me.

Unsolicited 'advice' is usually more about the needs of the giver than the receiver.

Some posters have useful insights.


----------



## sapientia

SimplyAmorous said:


> Makes me *not* want to be in the company of the rich & famous as they would only see people like us living like paupers..


As I said, there are lots of wealthy people who choose not to flash their worth. You almost certainly know some, and don't realize it, and they like it that way. These flashy folks are like seeing only the tip of the iceberg.

We will never own a $4000 oven. No reason for it. If we entertain groups over 10 in my home we work with a caterer. I spent $400 last year to basically refurbish our older--and very robust--gas range b/c it's cheaper to do so over the life of the product. We'll get at least another 10 years out of the thing and by then we will likely sell the house for another. 

It's like the Click & Clack argument re: new car vs. repairing old.

I have nothing to connect this back to the thread topic, unfortunately, except that my H and I view money the same way, so we don't fight about it. We spend where it makes sense, and don't where it doesn't.


----------



## 225985

sapientia said:


> I asked for help from this site several years ago when I first joined. I haven't asked for anything recently. I didn't start this thread, and it's not about me.
> 
> Unsolicited 'advice' is usually more about the needs of the giver than the receiver.
> 
> Some posters have useful insights.




Ugh already. Ok SAP. You win.

BTW what is the thread topic? There has been so much jacking here it is confusing. Is this OP's story or is it an open thread?


----------



## 2ntnuf

blueinbr said:


> Ugh already. Ok SAP. You win.
> 
> BTW what is the thread topic? There has been so much jacking here it is confusing. Is this OP's story or is it an open thread?


Someone called a WS a scumbag in another thread. Cletus read it, felt a little like being a KISA and also took offense because he owned it.

He wanted to blow off some steam and tell everyone that has ever thought their WS was a POS to piss off. 

He doesn't believe one mistake or several of the same nature or leading to the same offense/mistake/infidelity should/could define the rest of that person's life. 

They are much more than just a scumbag. They are human beings that make mistakes just like everyone else. I guess that means we all cheat? I'm not sure. That would be like calling everyone a convicted murderer, prostitute, or bank robber when they've never committed the crime. 

Sure, in some states it's a crime, and others not. Even in those it's not, it can sway a judges rulings when infidelity is proven. So, it is against the law or they wouldn't take it into consideration at all. They just don't want to have a trial and sentencing for it cause so many do it.

So, we didn't define the word, scumbag. I don't think. We just all assume it means something we all agree with. 

There was little discussion about why someone would be defined by some word. There was only justification and then acceptance and the thread opened up. 

I posted something to @MEM11363 and @sapientia didn't like it and stepped in to set the record straight for him. He never commented on it, but let her argue her points with me, until she got her feelings hurt. So, he wants me and others to be careful with her feelings, though I did nothing more than she did, and probably less. 

So, I'll concede to his authority, even if I do not agree with his opinion. It should have been a warning to all involved. 



Now, we are talking about @MEM11363's life and @jld is asking a bunch of questions which don't seem to fit anything except to attempt to boost his ego, which is what usually happens when those two are in a thread together. 

And finally, I've explained how I understand this thread to have developed and evolved.


----------



## Cletus

2ntnuf said:


> Someone called a WS a scumbag in another thread. Cletus read it, felt a little like being a KISA and also took offense because he owned it.
> 
> He wanted to blow off some steam and tell everyone that has ever thought their WS was a POS to piss off.
> 
> He doesn't believe one mistake or several of the same nature or leading to the same offense/mistake/infidelity should/could define the rest of that person's life.
> 
> They are much more than just a scumbag. They are human beings that make mistakes just like everyone else. I guess that means we all cheat? I'm not sure. That would be like calling everyone a convicted murderer, prostitute, or bank robber when they've never committed the crime.
> 
> Sure, in some states it's a crime, and others not. Even in those it's not, it can sway a judges rulings when infidelity is proven. So, it is against the law or they wouldn't take it into consideration at all. They just don't want to have a trial and sentencing for it cause so many do it.
> 
> So, we didn't define the word, scumbag. I don't think. We just all assume it means something we all agree with.
> 
> There was little discussion about why someone would be defined by some word. There was only justification and then acceptance and the thread opened up.
> 
> I posted something to @MEM11363 and @sapientia didn't like it and stepped in to set the record straight for him. He never commented on it, but let her argue her points with me, until she got her feelings hurt. So, he wants me and others to be careful with her feelings, though I did nothing more than she did, and probably less.
> 
> So, I'll concede to his authority, even if I do not agree with his opinion. It should have been a warning to all involved.
> 
> 
> 
> Now, we are talking about @MEM11363's life and @jld is asking a bunch of questions which don't seem to fit anything except to attempt to boost his ego, which is what usually happens when those two are in a thread together.
> 
> And finally, I've explained how I understand this thread to have developed and evolved.


Sort of a long walk to half heartedly agree with the "all cheaters really are scumbags" premise.

What Cletus took offense to is the simplistic thinking that lumps everyone into the same scumbag bucket regardless of circumstance, as is happening as we speak in another thread on this very forum. 

People like neat, tidy wrappings and labels around lots of things in life, especially those things that allow them to feel superior to their fellow human. 

Life rarely respects their desire for such simplicity, even if they won't admit it.

Don't know about KISA. I thought putting an actual yellow face on the term scumbag might force people to think just a little bit more about the actual human on the other side of the screen.


Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


----------



## 2ntnuf

Cletus said:


> Sort of a long walk to half heartedly agree with the "all cheaters really are scumbags" premise.
> 
> What Cletus took offense to is the simplistic thinking that lumps everyone into the same scumbag bucket regardless of circumstance, as is happening as we speak in another thread on this very forum.
> 
> People like neat, tidy wrappings and labels around lots of things in life, especially those things that allow them to feel superior to their fellow human.
> 
> Life rarely respects their desire for such simplicity, even if they won't admit it.
> 
> Don't know about KISA. I thought putting an actual yellow face on the term scumbag might force people to think just a little bit more about the actual human on the other side of the screen.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk


My intention wasn't to claim anyone a scumbag, or beat around the bush about it. If I thought you were, I'd say so. 

Life isn't simple, but that just proves that we are all human and weak, although in different areas. Some are unfaithful. Some are faithful, yet may drink too much. There are many possible scenarios and I won't try to list them.

In my opinion, you feel like you own the word "scumbag" when you read it, or it would not bother you enough to start a thread to tell everyone you are not a scumbag. 

I don't say you are. You are accepting it as your monicker. There are many ways to approach this. Your thread is one.

Edit: As far as your comment about "circumstances", it's just another way of saying that infidelity is justified under certain circumstances. I disagree and always have.


----------



## Cletus

2ntnuf said:


> I don't say you are. You are accepting it as your monicker. There are many ways to approach this. Your thread is one.


I thought I was pretty clearly not accepting of it. It's a one-size-fits-all term applied to too many with no regard for their story or the sum of their character.



> Edit: As far as your comment about "circumstances", it's just another way of saying that infidelity is justified under certain circumstances. I disagree and always have.


It is no such thing. It is a testament to the fact that forces in marriage and life may cause otherwise decent people to make poor decisions. An act of infidelity does not suddenly turn a switch and create a Frankenstein from someone who was, up until then, an upstanding spouse. It creates an adulterer. How much compassion you are willing to give that adulterer probably depends on the sum of their person, I would hope. 

Justification? No. It's still the wrong choice except for some pretty unusual extenuating circumstances (to which mine did not belong, for clarity).

So near as I can tell, you pretty much missed the entire point of this thread, at least from my perspective.


----------



## larry.gray

blueinbr said:


> Ugh already. Ok SAP. You win.
> 
> BTW what is the thread topic? There has been so much jacking here it is confusing. Is this OP's story or is it an open thread?





Wazza said:


> Sorry Cletus, no wish to derail your thread. I don't trigger often, but this is such an occasion.





Cletus said:


> I'm not a thread nazi. Knock yourself out.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Cletus said:


> I thought I was pretty clearly not accepting of it. It's a one-size-fits-all term applied to too many with no regard for their story or the sum of their character.


Actually, you missed my point. It wouldn't anger and upset you as it has, if you did not take it onto yourself as a slur. It was not directed at you, from your own words. 

You could easily have discussed why you think the below, though you likely knew it would cause issues with many here at TAM. This is actually a violation of TAM rules. Do not start threads to incite "riots". Riots is my word, not in the rules. 





Cletus said:


> It is no such thing. It is a testament to the fact that forces in marriage and life may cause otherwise decent people to make poor decisions. An act of infidelity does not suddenly turn a switch and create a Frankenstein from someone who was, up until then, an upstanding spouse.


True, which is why I believe it's a character flaw to some extent, just as others have character flaws in one area or another. It may not be an issue of fidelity with others. We are all flawed, though. 




Cletus said:


> It creates an adulterer. How much compassion you are willing to give that adulterer probably depends on the sum of their person, I would hope.


The act is adultery/infidelity/or some other descriptive word. Please don't try to turn this into a religious thing. It crosses boundaries into the secular humanist world, too. Those folks hurt just as much. You are minimizing the pain of them, of which your wife is one. 



Cletus said:


> Justification? No. It's still the wrong choice except for some pretty unusual extenuating circumstances (to which mine did not belong, for clarity).


That's the definition of justification, Cletus. 



Simple Definition of justification

1 

: an acceptable reason for doing something : something that justifies an action
Justification | Definition of Justification by Merriam-Webster





Cletus said:


> So near as I can tell, you pretty much missed the entire point of this thread, at least from my perspective.


I think you're correct. You said it was about folks being called a "scumbag", but what you meant was that it was about justification for infidelity.

Which, negates any derogatory terms due to acceptance that someone was correct in choosing infidelity because they were pretty much forced to do it. 

Next, you'll be telling me it wasn't fun. They didn't enjoy it at all. It didn't give them a sense of revenge for perceived prior injustices they suffered and did so so much to try to rectify. It didn't give them a false feeling of control. 

Meh, it's a bull**** thread. Have fun. I hope others who read it see the truth and don't drink the cool aid. Reference to November 18, 1978 in Jonestown, Guyana. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown


----------



## sapientia

2ntnuf said:


> I posted something to @MEM11363 and @sapientia didn't like it and stepped in to set the record straight for him. He never commented on it, but let her argue her points with me, until she got her feelings hurt. *So, he wants me and others to be careful with her feelings*, though I did nothing more than she did, and probably less.


LOL. This is a great example of passive-aggressive style posting.

@MEM11363, did you really ask this^? I can't help but think this was not your actual request, assuming you even made one.


----------



## Cletus

2ntnuf said:


> Actually, you missed my point. It wouldn't anger and upset you as it has, if you did not take it onto yourself as a slur. It was not directed at you, from your own words.


I do not take it onto myself as a slur. Shall I repeat it, or is my stating it once sufficient? It is used by no small constituent of this forum as a description of anyone who has ever committed adultery, under any circumstances. 



> You could easily have discussed why you think the below, though you likely knew it would cause issues with many here at TAM. This is actually a violation of TAM rules. Do not start threads to incite "riots". Riots is my word, not in the rules.


Aren't you just full of ascribing intent to people today. 



> The act is adultery/infidelity/or some other descriptive word. Please don't try to turn this into a religious thing. It crosses boundaries into the secular humanist world, too. Those folks hurt just as much. You are minimizing the pain of them, of which your wife is one.


My wife is an atheist. She was a Catholic, lapsed, and no longer holds any belief. 

Not that you'd believe me if I said I wasn't making even the most tangential religious argument.



> That's the definition of justification, Cletus.


Yup. There are circumstances where I believe adultery to be fully justified. They just don't come up all that much in real life. The don't apply to me. 



> I think you're correct. You said it was about folks being called a "scumbag", but what you meant was that it was about justification for infidelity.
> 
> Which, negates any derogatory terms due to acceptance that someone was correct in choosing infidelity because they were pretty much forced to do it.
> 
> Next, you'll be telling me it wasn't fun. They didn't enjoy it at all. It didn't give them a sense of revenge for perceived prior injustices they suffered and did so so much to try to rectify. It didn't give them a false feeling of control.
> 
> Meh, it's a bull**** thread. Have fun. I hope others who read it see the truth and don't drink the cool aid.


Any time you want to come back and engage in a conversation with me about what I actually said, or ask the intent instead of substituting your strawman, please do. 

But you don't want to do that, do you? You'd rather put words into my mouth, predicting my upcoming posts. You'd rather rail on the caricature. If you can't summon the gumption to call me a scumbag straight up, then by golly you're sure going to invent a version of me which you can without a guilty conscience. Which you're free to do, but I don't have to sit idly by and accept it for reality.


----------



## 225985

sapientia said:


> LOL. This is a great example of passive-aggressive style posting.
> 
> @MEM11363, did you really ask this^? I can't help but think this was not your actual request, assuming you even made one.



Since the mod's words were directed to me too i understood it to be the same that 2 just indicated. You did after call for the mods for help by shouting out to them and we obeyed the moderator's instruct.


----------



## sapientia

Found it. That was a fair post.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

EDIT: I tried to delete this post this am.. but seems we can no longer do this  Not sure I like that.. 



2ntnuf said:


> Now, we are talking about @MEM11363's life and @jld is asking a bunch of questions which don't seem to fit anything except to attempt to boost his ego, which is what usually happens when those two are in a thread together.
> 
> And finally, I've explained how I understand this thread to have developed and evolved.


This part about MEM & jld ...I may have initially laughed reading it..but that's just because "how can this be!"... I can't see her doing that... Jld may speak her mind.. but boosting a man's ego... I'd have to see it to believe it ! (my post could have been misread, or misunderstood, I don't want that)

... I haven't really been following ... I entered cause @larry.gray mentioned me ... 

My original "on topic" post was many pages ago by now... I didn't get a like from Cletus even though I clearly don't think he's a scumbag.. maybe he felt I was defending scumbags "too much"... 

Another poster took issue with me & thought so anyway... I try to see the pain & suffering on both sides is all...

It's a great topic though..


----------



## jld

SimplyAmorous said:


> This part about @MEM11363 & @jld had me laughing out loud !!


What makes you laugh? That someone thinks I am boosting a male ego instead of deflating it, like I am usually accused of? 

I make comments and ask questions as I am inspired. No inspiration, no participation.

It was interesting to hear 2's interpretation of what was said. I would never have guessed it if he had not written it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

2ntnuf said:


> Someone called a WS a scumbag in another thread. Cletus read it, felt a little like being a KISA and also took offense because he owned it.
> 
> He wanted to blow off some steam and tell everyone that has ever thought their WS was a POS to piss off.
> 
> He doesn't believe one mistake or several of the same nature or leading to the same offense/mistake/infidelity should/could define the rest of that person's life.
> 
> They are much more than just a scumbag. They are human beings that make mistakes just like everyone else. I guess that means we all cheat?


Oh no! We find new and interesting mistakes to make. We don't all make the SAME mistakes. I have made some whoppers in my time requiring solid reflection on what I want my character look like, thus resolving not to make that mistake again. Live and learn. 

There are many ways to hurt the ones we love. We are not thinking, gee today I want to hurt the one I love! Won't that be fun!


----------



## 2ntnuf

Cletus said:


> I do not take it onto myself as a slur. Shall I repeat it, or is my stating it once sufficient? It is used by no small constituent of this forum as a description of anyone who has ever committed adultery, under any circumstances.
> 
> 
> 
> Aren't you just full of ascribing intent to people today.
> 
> 
> 
> My wife is an atheist. She was a Catholic, lapsed, and no longer holds any belief.
> 
> Not that you'd believe me if I said I wasn't making even the most tangential religious argument.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup. There are circumstances where I believe adultery to be fully justified. They just don't come up all that much in real life. The don't apply to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Any time you want to come back and engage in a conversation with me about what I actually said, or ask the intent instead of substituting your strawman, please do.
> 
> But you don't want to do that, do you? You'd rather put words into my mouth, predicting my upcoming posts. You'd rather rail on the caricature. If you can't summon the gumption to call me a scumbag straight up, then by golly you're sure going to invent a version of me which you can without a guilty conscience. Which you're free to do, but I don't have to sit idly by and accept it for reality.


What do you want, Cletus? I've stated what you posted in my own words. If that's not what you like, that's too bad. You can rail on and on if you want about wanting me to call you a scumbag. Sorry, right now, I'm thinking of another term or two. 

My straw man was just the inside of the iron maiden I've built. If you want to stand inside while someone closes the door, you'll have to put yourself there.


----------



## MEM2020

JLD and Sapi,

While I value your respective inputs I have a request.

Try to be sensitive to the fact that BS's as a group - are sorely aggrieved. 

I think Sapi might have suggested that - BS's who are paying attention will see signs. And JLD might have hypothesized that an affair leading to a divorce - reflects a lack of love. 

I do believe some WS's are skilled in the dark arts of deception. 

And that some folks - despite feeling love - cannot get past an affair.

------
It was NEVER my intention to make broad generalizations that find fault with BS's as a group. Instead I had a much more modest goal - which was to share my personal experiences in the hope they would resonate with others. 





jld said:


> You really love her. That might be what is missing from those other marriages.
> 
> I still am not exactly sure what you would call your part in it. Just that you did not see her obvious frustration, and did not offer to close the business? Basically your obliviousness, and lack of leadership, and her resulting aloneness in trying to deal with the issue?


----------



## jld

Okay, will do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ceegee

MEM11363 said:


> I do believe some WS's are skilled in the dark arts of deception.



Some?

Not trying to drag this out.

I seriously LOL'd. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

Ceegee said:


> Some?
> 
> Not trying to drag this out.
> 
> I seriously LOL'd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




The dark arts are learned at the secret meetings. The secret handshake is used to identify each other. If the BSs ever learn the dark arts, all affairs will stop.


----------



## Maricha75

blueinbr said:


> The dark arts are learned at the secret meetings. The secret handshake is used to identify each other. If the BSs ever learn the dark arts, all affairs will stop.


No... they need defense against the dark arts. Get it right. 😮

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

Maricha75 said:


> No... they need defense against the dark arts. Get it right.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk




I meant that once the BSs are aware of the secret ways of the WS, the affair cannot continue. 

On a related note, our standard evidence thread could give a WS ideas on how to cheat. But if the BS has same information the affair can be exposed. 

Unfortunately I think there are websites in which cheaters share tips, so my post is not as absurd as it seems.


----------



## Maricha75

blueinbr said:


> I meant that once the BSs are aware of the secret ways of the WS, the affair cannot continue.
> 
> On a related note, our standard evidence thread could give a WS ideas on how to cheat. But if the BS has same information the affair can be exposed.
> 
> Unfortunately I think there are websites in which cheaters share tips, so my post is not as absurd as it seems.


... I was actually referencing Harry Potter. 😕

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## 225985

Maricha75 said:


> ... I was actually referencing Harry Potter.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk




Ok, the reference was lost on me. I am a guy older than 12 years.


----------



## Maricha75

blueinbr said:


> Ok, the reference was lost on me. I am a guy older than 12 years.


... my husband is also a guy over 12 years. Perhaps "I don't have kids" or "I never got into those books" would be a better response. Incidentally, I am also over 12 years, and only watched the movies because of my kids. Even if they hadn't bern interested in them, I have plenty of people in my life who have seen them, read them, or at least are aware of them... all of these people are age 30+

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## larry.gray

Ceegee said:


> Some?
> 
> Not trying to drag this out.
> 
> I seriously LOL'd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It is a spectrum.

Not all of them are good at it. So you might say some of the are unskilled at it.

The really good ones are never caught. Those are the ones that are the ninjas of the art.


----------



## Ceegee

larry.gray said:


> It is a spectrum.
> 
> 
> 
> Not all of them are good at it. So you might say some of the are unskilled at it.
> 
> 
> 
> The really good ones are never caught. Those are the ones that are the ninjas of the art.




Yeah, well in the context of this thread, I want to be unapologetically clear. 

Cheaters are liars. 

Through deceit, omission, misdirection, etc. 

Unless your in an open relationship, you're lying to your spouse. 

However complex the reasons may be for doing so it boils down to this simple truth. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ceegee

klondike said:


> How the heck could you get "you're" correct in a sentence and also screw it up completely, in the SAME sentence?
> 
> 
> 
> Never seen that before.




Cabernet. 

Haven't already explained this?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Ceegee

klondike said:


> What year and vineyard?



Chateau Latour 

The freshest. This year. None of that old stuff. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

I could help you understand your part in what happened - but you'd have to ask. 



Ceegee said:


> Some?
> 
> Not trying to drag this out.
> 
> I seriously LOL'd.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## notmyrealname4

Wazza said:


> Deleted (I am sure there used to be a delete option)





MattMatt said:


> I think it went in the update.
> 
> There's a lot of talk in online communities about how* cross people are when someone poses a question, they write an incredibly detailed and thoughtful response only to see it and dozens of other pages of posts go down in flames when the person who made the thread starter post deletes their post.*
> 
> Getting rid of the ability to delete stops this.




Wow - the ego must be incredible on these folks.

People who post on forums are doing so of their own free will. They are doing it because they want to, and because they enjoy it. They enjoy participating, commiserating, and giving and getting FREE advice. They are not making any kind of sacrifice whatsoever. They invest their time, because they are getting some kind of return. It's b.s. that any of us are doing this for altruistic motives.

To get "cross" (angry, annoyed), because some internet stranger deleted a thread that you contributed to ??? Really.

I don't mean "you" you, Matt. I'm talking in general terms.

If people feel they are wasting their time posting, because someone might delete their invaluable  contributions; perhaps they should work on getting a book published----or something that would get them the recognition they feel they deserve.


----------



## MattMatt

There have been instances where people have said "I wanted to re-read a thread as it answered a question of mine, but it vanished."

The OP, because they had been given an answer ( perhaps one they didn't like?) had deleted their original post, thus taking all the other posts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

On skilled WS:

I've posted before that we can't know what is in someone's mind, or their heart. A simple solution for the WS is to read and follow the Five Love Languages. 

The BS will believe they are loved and will likely be inspired to deepen their trust and love of the WS. In such cases, many excuses will seem believable, and will be justified in the mind of the BS with the thoughts that their needs are being met and love languages spoken.

Add just enough truth to a lie and it is quite believable to those who want to believe the best, not the worst about their marriage, their choices, their decisions, and their commitment to love. How devastating it is to realize you wasted your life with someone who would rather be dishonest and backbiting after looking so hard for compatibility.

It's likely the WS had a very good reason for their infidelity. Whatever those reasons are, they just don't matter because the bottom line is in the paragraph above. What a fool the BS was to believe, trust, and love them. They were never compatible. The lies started long before the wedding vows. 

Infidelity is within a person or it isn't, just like a disorder of any addiction. It's hidden well by some and lies undiscovered by the "innocent" new love of a partner who believes they have found the one person who they've been looking for all their life. 

Those who have never experienced infidelity with someone they believed loved them will not be able to fully understand these concepts until they do. Their counsel is weak and is best left to help with reconciliation so the BS is not harmed further by their unintended posts about the "reality" for the life of the WS. 

There is permanent damage that can be done, and only those who have accepted that the WS chose to be unfaithful will be able to then look at themselves. They don't need to look at the couple, but only themselves. Then, once both partners have been able to understand their role in the marriage and how they could be a better spouse, there might be a chance for some to look at this "new" person as a potential spouse. 

They may just as easily discover they don't really like who that person has become. They may find they are not compatible or attracted to each other. At that point they should be able to do whatever is necessary with less harm to themselves and each other. 

Infidelity is a horrible choice. Don't let it control you. Control yourself and you will be a stronger person.


----------



## notmyrealname4

wild jade said:


> Wait, what? I wasn't saying that *men don't care for their children* ...
> 
> *And why not get into the psychological*? That's exactly where this whole "gene death" trauma is, isn't it? It actually has nothing at all to do with biology itself and everything to do with men wanting to leave a legacy that is them and theirs, and that they know is theirs.
> 
> *This is purely psychology isn't it? Evolution and biology is indifferent to individuals.*
> 
> I can very much sympathize about the difficulty of finding out that who you thought was your child isn't. * I just don't think this has anything to do with biology or gene death*.





sapientia said:


> *The pysch argument is going to be messy, since it's going to be very subjective. I'm not going to go there,* having already said my piece on that, but I'd be amused to watch you try if you wish.





I'll contribute a fact: that I know personally that there are men who* gladly* walk away and don't contribute a dime to their child's upkeep. I'm always amazed (pleasantly) by the dads-of-TAM, who, in one memorable post I read "would rather live in a cardboard box, than see my kids go without".

Wonderful; but not my experience at all. Thanks "dad". NOT!!!


And, I feel sympathy for men who are lied to, and whose children are not their own. Women who do this are LOW.

But I don't believe that the outrage over being cheated on is motivated by our angry genes; furious that they are not being passed on.

The outrage is at being sexually usurped. And the outrage is justified.

But call it what it is. "My husband/wife wanted to have sex with someone else. Wanted it so bad that they went ahead and did it. And I'm really worried that the sex with their affair partner was better than the sex they had with me."

^^^All natural and normal and human------and honest!


----------



## 225985

Ceegee said:


> Yeah, well in the context of this thread, I want to be unapologetically clear.
> 
> Cheaters are liars.
> 
> Through deceit, omission, misdirection, etc.
> 
> Unless your in an open relationship, you're lying to your spouse.
> 
> However complex the reasons may be for doing so it boils down to this simple truth.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




You don't have to be a "cheater" to lie to your spouse,or be deceitful, or omit or misdirect or even cause great emotional pain in your spouse. And a future BS can do all this to the future WS. There are many forms of betrayal and cheating. Infidelity is only one.

Unfortunately that is also the simple truth.


----------



## 225985

notmyrealname4 said:


> Wow - the ego must be incredible on these folks.
> 
> 
> 
> People who post on forums are doing so of their own free will. They are doing it because they want to, and because they enjoy it. They enjoy participating, commiserating, and giving and getting FREE advice. They are not making any kind of sacrifice whatsoever. They invest their time, because they are getting some kind of return. It's b.s. that any of us are doing this for altruistic motives.
> 
> 
> 
> To get "cross" (angry, annoyed), because some internet stranger deleted a thread that you contributed to ??? Really.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't mean "you" you, Matt. I'm talking in general terms.
> 
> 
> 
> If people feel they are wasting their time posting, because someone might delete their invaluable  contributions; perhaps they should work on getting a book published----or something that would get them the recognition they feel they deserve.




I cannot agree with this strong enough. Posters have no obligation to join a thread. I have seen highly respected members say it is selfish to delete a thread because they invested their time in postings. Like WTH? If you have thousands of posts on a forum (like me) you might want to consider your motives for posting. (I also don't mean you Matt)

Yes, some jerks intentionally start a riot and then they delete their post. But it often is captured in a quote. Besides deleting the post can be edited. If TAM ever eliminates that option I would have to stop posting here and move on. 

What is funny is that likes remain even after an edit is done. I can post something, get many likes, then edit the post to something opposite and it looks like the same people liked what i posted.


----------



## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> I'll contribute a fact: that I know personally that there are men who* gladly* walk away and don't contribute a dime to their child's upkeep. I'm always amazed (pleasantly) by the dads-of-TAM, who, in one memorable post I read "would rather live in a cardboard box, than see my kids go without".
> 
> Wonderful; but not my experience at all. Thanks "dad". NOT!!!
> 
> 
> And, I feel sympathy for men who are lied to, and whose children are not their own. Women who do this are LOW.
> 
> But I don't believe that the outrage over being cheated on is motivated by our angry genes; furious that they are not being passed on.
> 
> The outrage is at being sexually usurped. And the outrage is justified.
> 
> *But call it what it is. "My husband/wife wanted to have sex with someone else. Wanted it so bad that they went ahead and did it. And I'm really worried that the sex with their affair partner was better than the sex they had with me."*
> 
> ^^^All natural and normal and human------and honest!


The bolded is interesting. I never thought about it that way. 

But it makes sense when you think about the advice given to WSs, namely about the importance of reassuring their partners and taking all the responsibility onto themselves. It protects the ego of the BS.

Would you say that this is equally true for both sexes?


----------



## notmyrealname4

jld said:


> Would you say that this is equally true for both sexes?


I don't know, jld, I really don't know.

But I know it's true for me, a woman.

My genes could've cared less if they got spread out or passed on. If you're an atheist/secular person, then you know at some very, very distant point in time the last star will die, all atomic activity will cease; and everything that ever happened here on the big blue marble is meaningless.

If you are religious or spiritual, or just believe there is "something" after death to look forward to; then there is where your hope lies. You cast off the husk of your body and you move on to the next life.


But in either of those belief systems; what happens to the gene pool, or who contributed to it; is ultimately meaningless.


What* is* real in our current existence, is our sexual ego and our deep emotional need to feel special and significant sexually.

And that gets spit on if your SO has an affair.


----------



## 225985

Maricha75 said:


> ... my husband is also a guy over 12 years. Perhaps "I don't have kids" or "I never got into those books" would be a better response. Incidentally, I am also over 12 years, and only watched the movies because of my kids. Even if they hadn't bern interested in them, I have plenty of people in my life who have seen them, read them, or at least are aware of them... all of these people are age 30+
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk




I did watch some HP or parts of some. I never got into it. Never got into the Twilight series either. I did love the Hunger Games series but that now is forever ruined for me due to the trigger.


----------



## 225985

MattMatt said:


> There have been instances where people have said "I wanted to re-read a thread as it answered a question of mine, but it vanished."
> 
> 
> 
> The OP, because they had been given an answer ( perhaps one they didn't like?) had deleted their original post, thus taking all the other posts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




Anyone can make a copy of any thread at any time. 

The posters that want to preserve their investment can make a copy. 

If someone sees a thread relevant to them or a help to them they can make a copy. I have done so. 

Just because it is posted on the internet does not mean the information will or should be readily accessible forever.


----------



## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> I don't know, jld, I really don't know.
> 
> But I know it's true for me, a woman.
> 
> My genes could've cared less if they got spread out or passed on. If you're an atheist/secular person, then you know at some very, very distant point in time the last star will die, all atomic activity will cease; and everything that ever happened here on the big blue marble is meaningless.
> 
> If you are religious or spiritual, or just believe there is "something" after death to look forward to; then there is where your hope lies. You cast off the husk of your body and you move on to the next life.
> 
> 
> But in either of those belief systems; what happens to the gene pool, or who contributed to it; is ultimately meaningless.
> 
> 
> *What is real in our current existence, is our sexual ego and our deep emotional need to feel special and significant sexually.
> 
> And that gets spit on if your SO has an affair*.


That makes sense if you are a mainly sex-driven person. But even BSs who may not be that way are often very hurt by infidelity.

The ego is involved both ways. That may be the common denominator.

Well, interesting to think about. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, notmyrealname.


----------



## notmyrealname4

MattMatt said:


> There have been instances where people have said "I wanted to re-read a thread as it answered a question of mine, but it vanished."
> 
> The OP, because they had been given an answer ( perhaps one they didn't like?) had deleted their original post, thus taking all the other posts.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_




That's too bad if you (not the thread starter), recall a thread that had some wisdom, and it's gone.

My advice would be to copy and paste to a folder on your device, any info on the internet that you find useful. You never know when a site may disappear, or a thread, or whatever.

And, if it really matters to you; start another thread.

People usually delete threads because they are concerned about their anonymity. They asked for help. They got it. Now they need to cover their tracks, because perhaps their situation in life would suffer if they were "discovered" posting on sites like this. Some intimate stuff is discussed.


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/forum-guidelines/2-posting-guidelines-forum-rules.html


As of now, the forum guidelines still say you can delete posts???


Although apparently, they are never deleted, just "hidden", if you will.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/technical-difficulties/342969-delete-option.html


----------



## notmyrealname4

jld said:


> That makes sense if you are a mainly sex-driven person.* But even BSs who may not be that way are often very hurt by infidelity.*
> 
> The ego is involved both ways. That may be the common denominator.




I would think that "less sexual" betrayed spouses get their sexual egos trodden underfoot too.

Lower-drive people have a need for sexual recognition and appreciation.

They may even be more vulnerable this way. Think of it. You know your SO always wants more sex than you feel comfortable giving.

Then that SO cheats on you. Confirmation. You don't sexually satisfy your spouse.


I don't think of LD's as lacking sexual needs. They want the same affirmations and assurances sexually as higher drive people.

They just don't need it as often as their higher drive spouse.

And sometimes I'm a bit iffy on the LD/HD thing.

I'm more likely to believe in conditional or situational LD.


----------



## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> I would think that "less sexual" betrayed spouses get their sexual egos trodden underfoot too.
> 
> Lower-drive people have a need for sexual recognition and appreciation.
> 
> They may even be more vulnerable this way. Think of it. You know your SO always wants more sex than you feel comfortable giving.
> 
> Then that SO cheats on you. Confirmation. You don't sexually satisfy your spouse.
> 
> 
> I don't think of LD's as lacking sexual needs. They want the same affirmations and assurances sexually as higher drive people.
> 
> They just don't need it as often as their higher drive spouse.
> 
> And sometimes I'm a bit iffy on the LD/HD thing.
> 
> *I'm more likely to believe in conditional or situational LD.*


I agree. 

I do think you are looking at infidelity mainly through a sexual lens. That is certainly one lens, and it may be the main one people look through. But I don't think it is the only one.


----------



## notmyrealname4

jld said:


> I agree.
> 
> I do think you are looking at infidelity mainly through a sexual lens. That is certainly one lens, and it may be the main one people look through.* But I don't think it is the only one*.




What's the other one.:laugh:

Infidelity does not (typically) involve moving in together, sharing bank accounts, having children, pursuing mutual hobbies etc. etc.

So rule the above out; what do you have left.

Even emotional affairs have a strong sexual charge to them.

Affairs are about getting physical sex, or the sexual tension building up in an emotional affair. I think EA's can tend to happen insidiously; you don't you're in one, until it's already happened.


----------



## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> What's the other one.:laugh:
> 
> Infidelity does not (typically) involve moving in together, sharing bank accounts, having children, pursuing mutual hobbies etc. etc.
> 
> So rule the above out; what do you have left.
> 
> Even emotional affairs have a strong sexual charge to them.
> 
> Affairs are about getting physical sex, or the sexual tension building up in an emotional affair. I think EA's can tend to happen insidiously; you don't you're in one, until it's already happened.


Yes, I think the emotional is the other one.

Do you remember the man who accused his wife of being in an EA with her mother? 

Obviously nothing sexual to it. He just felt her time was being invested in her mother moreso than in him.


----------



## notmyrealname4

jld said:


> Yes, I think the emotional is the other one.
> 
> Do you remember the man who accused his wife of being in an EA with her mother?
> 
> Obviously nothing sexual to it. He just felt her time was being invested in her mother moreso than in him.




Well, like I said; emotional affairs are sexually charged. It is a non-physical form of sexual attention. 

No, I don't recall that thread, lol, but I think that man used the wrong term. "Affair" pretty much only has one type of meaning; and it's sexual.

I would say his wife had failed to emotionally wean herself from her mother. 

Terrible for a marriage; that's for sure.


----------



## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> Well, like I said; emotional affairs are sexually charged. It is a non-physical form of sexual attention.
> 
> No, I don't recall that thread, lol, but I think that man used the wrong term. "Affair" pretty much only has one type of meaning; and it's sexual.
> 
> I would say his wife had failed to emotionally wean herself from her mother.
> 
> Terrible for a marriage; that's for sure.


I think it was on him. If he had provided the same emotional safety her mother had, she would have been drawn to him. You cannot demand emotional intimacy. Feeling entitled to it is not going to inspire it.

I don't think he was open to that, though. I am not sure how the thread ended.


----------



## 225985

jld said:


> I think it was on him.



Really? Should he have offered his breasts too?


----------



## jld

blueinbr said:


> Really? Should he have offered his breasts too?


?


----------



## wild jade

notmyrealname4 said:


> I'll contribute a fact: that I know personally that there are men who* gladly* walk away and don't contribute a dime to their child's upkeep. I'm always amazed (pleasantly) by the dads-of-TAM, who, in one memorable post I read "would rather live in a cardboard box, than see my kids go without".
> 
> Wonderful; but not my experience at all. Thanks "dad". NOT!!!
> 
> 
> And, I feel sympathy for men who are lied to, and whose children are not their own. Women who do this are LOW.
> 
> But I don't believe that the outrage over being cheated on is motivated by our angry genes; furious that they are not being passed on.
> 
> The outrage is at being sexually usurped. And the outrage is justified.
> 
> But call it what it is. "My husband/wife wanted to have sex with someone else. Wanted it so bad that they went ahead and did it. And I'm really worried that the sex with their affair partner was better than the sex they had with me."
> 
> ^^^All natural and normal and human------and honest!


I agree. But I don't think it's only sexual ego and sexual jealousy that drives the outrage. I think it's also about trust and vulnerability. As in, "I believed you when said you'd be there for me, and I shared all my vulnerabilities with you and all you're doing is yanking my heart out of my chest and stomping all over it."


----------



## NobodySpecial

notmyrealname4 said:


> But call it what it is. "My husband/wife wanted to have sex with someone else. Wanted it so bad that they went ahead and did it. And I'm really worried that the sex with their affair partner was better than the sex they had with me."
> 
> ^^^All natural and normal and human------and honest!


And... true. By virtue of the fact that the person chose to have sex with that person, and usually not their spouse, we can conclude it WAS better.


----------



## Ceegee

MEM11363 said:


> I could help you understand your part in what happened - but you'd have to ask.


Thanks for the offer MEM.

I have a pretty good understanding believe it or not. 

If, however, you see an opportunity just consider my presence here on TAM as me asking.

.......................

Right now I'm just really upset no one got my "The Jerk" reference.


----------



## Ceegee

blueinbr said:


> You don't have to be a "cheater" to lie to your spouse,or be deceitful, or omit or misdirect or even cause great emotional pain in your spouse. And a future BS can do all this to the future WS. There are many forms of betrayal and cheating. Infidelity is only one.
> 
> Unfortunately that is also the simple truth.


I think this goes without saying.


----------



## wild jade

NobodySpecial said:


> And... true. By virtue of the fact that the person chose to have sex with that person, and usually not their spouse, we can conclude it WAS better.


Only if they go back more than once. Otherwise, it might have just been the hope that it would be better.


----------



## 225985

Ceegee said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> .......................
> 
> 
> 
> Right now I'm just really upset no one got my "The Jerk" reference.




Well you posted that in the middle of the night. Those of us old enough to catch that are either just waking up or getting the Seniors breakfast at Denny's.


----------



## 225985

Ceegee said:


> I think this goes without saying.



Actually it does have to be said but since this is the CWI forum many don't want to hear that. 

Liars lie. Cheaters are just one subset of liars.


----------



## notmyrealname4

wild jade said:


> I agree. But I don't think it's only sexual ego and sexual jealousy that drives the outrage. I think it's also about trust and vulnerability. As in, "I believed you when said you'd be there for me, and I shared all my vulnerabilities with you *and all you're doing is yanking my heart out of my chest and stomping all over it*."


Yes, but why is your heart getting yanked out of your chest and being stomped all over?

Because your husband* was having sex *with another woman. That's the specific type of trust and vulnerability that is being betrayed.

Think of it this way. Using an example from MEM. Your husband loans $[dollar amount] to a friend or family member. He doesn't tell you; but claims that you guys can't buy that new couch you need; his bonus wasn't large enough this year.

This is a betrayal. You will be upset. He's given a marital resource to someone else; and you've still got a saggy, stained old couch.

There's no way in the world this could upset you like him having sex with someone else could.

Sex is like nothing else. That's why it has the power to shatter us the way that it does.


----------



## 225985

jld said:


> ?




A husband cannot match the emotional bond his wife might have with her mom. Doesn't that bond start with breastfeeding?


----------



## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> Yes, but why is your heart getting yanked out of your chest and being stomped all over?
> 
> Because your husband* was having sex *with another woman. That's the specific type of trust and vulnerability that is being betrayed.
> 
> Think of it this way. Using an example from MEM. Your husband loans $[dollar amount] to a friend or family member. He doesn't tell you; but claims that you guys can't buy that new couch you need; his bonus wasn't large enough this year.
> 
> This is a betrayal. You will be upset. He's given a marital resource to someone else; and you've still got a saggy, stained old couch.
> 
> *There's no way in the world this could upset you like him having sex with someone else could.*
> 
> Sex is like nothing else. That's why it has the power to shatter us the way that it does.


I disagree. There are people who would stay after an affair but would divorce over financial infidelity.

It all depends on what you value most. Or what you feel most threatened by, I guess.


----------



## jld

blueinbr said:


> A husband cannot match the emotional bond his wife might have with her mom. Doesn't that bond start with breastfeeding?


That's a stretch, blue.

I think his problem was that he felt entitled to her trust rather than accepting to earn it.

Again, I am not sure how the thread ended. It was quite a while back.


----------



## Personal

blueinbr said:


> A husband cannot match the emotional bond his wife might have with her mom. Doesn't that bond start with breastfeeding?


My wife has a far greater emotional bond with me, than she does with her mother or anyone else from her family of origin. Not everyone likes their parents, or grew up in the Brady Bunch.


----------



## 225985

jld said:


> That's a stretch, blue.
> 
> 
> 
> I think his problem was that he felt entitled to her trust rather than accepting to earn it.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, I am not sure how the thread ended. It was quite a while back.




That is a good topic for a new thread. In early dating, engagement or first years of marriage has trust already been earned or is it an assumed entitlement if there is no incident that betrays the trust? Do we often start with 100% trust in our spouse until something like cheating undermines that trust?


----------



## wild jade

notmyrealname4 said:


> Yes, but why is your heart getting yanked out of your chest and being stomped all over?
> 
> Because your husband* was having sex *with another woman. That's the specific type of trust and vulnerability that is being betrayed.
> 
> Think of it this way. Using an example from MEM. Your husband loans $[dollar amount] to a friend or family member. He doesn't tell you; but claims that you guys can't buy that new couch you need; his bonus wasn't large enough this year.
> 
> This is a betrayal. You will be upset. He's given a marital resource to someone else; and you've still got a saggy, stained old couch.
> 
> There's no way in the world this could upset you like him having sex with someone else could.
> 
> Sex is like nothing else. That's why it has the power to shatter us the way that it does.


But it's also because he promised me he'd be true to me, that he would be there for me, and that he loved me.

And all of that would be shattered too. I could no longer believe what he said. Or know that he would be with me when I needed him and not in the arms of another.

I agree that sex is potent. And sexual jealousy and insecurity is a huge reason why we want to call cheaters scumbags. But I think it also has to do with love and trust and emotional vulnerability. Which are also very potent.

And why emotional affairs also make us feel like our hearts have been stomped on.


----------



## 225985

Personal said:


> My wife has a far greater emotional bond with me, than she does with her mother or anyone else from her family of origin. Not everyone likes their parents, or grew up in the Brady Bunch.




Exactly. We have a family friend that has an immense bond with her mother. The husband is great but he will never match that bond. One cannot just ( or always) blame the husband.


----------



## Personal

blueinbr said:


> One cannot just ( or always) blame the husband.


Well one can do that if they want to, that said it is foolish to presume the husband is always to blame.


----------



## jld

Personal said:


> *My wife has a far greater emotional bond with me, than she does with her mother or anyone else from her family of origin. *Not everyone likes their parents, or grew up in the Brady Bunch.


That describes me with Dug. He is my anchor in life.


----------



## notmyrealname4

wild jade said:


> But it's also because he promised me he'd be true to me, that he would be there for me, and that he loved me.
> 
> And all of that would be shattered too. I could no longer believe what he said. Or know that he would be with me when I needed him and not in the arms of another.
> 
> I agree that sex is potent. And sexual jealousy and insecurity is a huge reason why we want to call cheaters scumbags. But I think it also has to do with love and trust and emotional vulnerability. Which are also very potent.
> 
> And why emotional affairs also make us feel like our hearts have been stomped on.



This is interesting. Reading and considering my response to all these posts have made me realize that I can't separate sex from fidelity, loyalty, love, trustworthiness, dependability, vulnerability.

It's like they're all rolled up into the same thing. Or, sex accesses all these parts of my psyche.

So, for me, my husband cheating on me affects everything and I couldn't see clearly. Because, somehow, it's ALL about sex.

Sorry, jade, I'm thinking out loud.


----------



## jld

notmyrealname4 said:


> This is interesting. Reading and considering my response to all these posts have made me realize that I can't separate sex from fidelity, loyalty, love, trustworthiness, dependability, vulnerability.
> 
> It's like they're all rolled up into the same thing. Or, sex accesses all these parts of my psyche.
> 
> So, for me, my husband cheating on me affects everything and I couldn't see clearly. Because, somehow, it's ALL about sex.
> 
> Sorry, jade, I'm thinking out loud.


It is good you share your experience. It does not need agreement from everyone to be valuable.


----------



## jld

blueinbr said:


> Exactly. We have a family friend that has an immense bond with her mother. The husband is great but he will never match that bond. One cannot just ( or always) blame the husband.





Personal said:


> Well one can do that if they want to, that said it is foolish to presume the husband is always to blame.


I don't know that it is blaming him. It is offering him some agency in the situation. 

If you tell him his wife needs to change, you set him up to wait on her to do that. What if she never does? He could end up just piling up resentment.

If he takes hold of the agency he has, and still cannot inspire her greater emotional connection, then he may want to hang up the relationship. He will know he did what he could, but it did not work. Much easier to move on, conscience clear.


----------



## wild jade

notmyrealname4 said:


> This is interesting. Reading and considering my response to all these posts have made me realize that I can't separate sex from fidelity, loyalty, love, trustworthiness, dependability, vulnerability.
> 
> It's like they're all rolled up into the same thing. Or, sex accesses all these parts of my psyche.
> 
> So, for me, my husband cheating on me affects everything and I couldn't see clearly. Because, somehow, it's ALL about sex.
> 
> Sorry, jade, I'm thinking out loud.


No need to apologize! Isn't that what posting on these threads is? Thinking out loud -- and actually having a voice other than the one in your head respond?

It is hard to separate these things out. Especially in the thick of it when there's only that singular yowl of pain.


----------



## jld

wild jade said:


> No need to apologize! Isn't that what posting on these threads is? Thinking out loud -- and actually having a voice other than the one in your head respond?


I agree! 



> It is hard to separate these things out. Especially in the thick of it when there's only that singular yowl of pain.


And that is why it is important to keep speech as free as possible on these boards. What we hear might hurt, but can help.


----------



## Personal

@jld reference your more recent post above where you quote me, I'm not sure why you have quoted me? I figure it's in reference to a discussion with @blueinbr, but I don't know what specifically, because I haven't been following all of the discussions on this meandering thread.


----------



## jld

Personal said:


> @jld reference your more recent post above where you quote me, I'm not sure why you have quoted me? I figure it's in reference to a discussion with @blueinbr, but I don't know what specifically, because I haven't been following all of the discussions on this meandering thread.


You were echoing blue, no?


----------



## Personal

jld said:


> You were echoing blue, no?


No not entirely he was saying one cannot do something while I was saying one can. At the same time I was generically saying one would be foolish with respect to always presuming (where one doesn't know where the fault lies) blame. Which I might add if one can identify fault have at it.

P.S. Thanks for answering my question since your question indicated your reason.


----------



## larry.gray

NobodySpecial said:


> And... true. By virtue of the fact that the person chose to have sex with that person, and usually not their spouse, we can conclude it WAS better.


I could buy that sometimes it does suck. Not everyone is good in the sack.

But a LTA, I'm not buying it. You don't go back over and over if its not good. A BS who isn't a fool will have to know that it was better. If they reconcile, they have to do that knowing that fact. 

I would think the sexual dynamic does play in though. Someone who is LD and vanilla isn't going to be bothered by _that specific aspect_ of the affair.


----------



## Cletus

wild jade said:


> I agree. But I don't think it's only sexual ego and sexual jealousy that drives the outrage. I think it's also about trust and vulnerability. As in, "I believed you when said you'd be there for me, and I shared all my vulnerabilities with you and all you're doing is yanking my heart out of my chest and stomping all over it."


I understand how a betrayed spouse might find this justification for an unwillingness to reconcile.

Right up to the point where I yanked out my wife's heart and stomped all over it, there was 20 years of frustration with a woman unable to consider the sexual needs of her husband. There is general agreement here that up until that very point, I was the primary victim. I have hundreds of posts in various threads attesting to that general feeling.

So an affair is an inflection point. It can, in one night, turn you from victim to villain. It can take scales that were heavily weighted in your favor and upend them completely. Under those circumstances, the betrayed spouse can say "out, you've ruined our marriage - you should have done the righteous thing and divorce me". The mature betrayed spouse can ask why and decide if in fact they played a role in contributing to the failure of the marriage (which I wholeheartedly believe to be a system, not just two individuals) and decide if it is worth recovering. Many will be blameless or disinterested. Some will not.


----------



## larry.gray

wild jade said:


> Only if they go back more than once. Otherwise, it might have just been the hope that it would be better.


Where there certainly are women that pursue the sexually aspect, many women deep in an EA are pulled in to a PA to keep the ego kibbles coming. They'll often do things they refuse their BS. Much like a teenage who looks back on a BF who coerced them, they don't necessarily look back on it fondly.

The problem a BS faces is they have a known liar so they can't trust to tell thr difference.


----------



## larry.gray

blueinbr said:


> A husband cannot match the emotional bond his wife might have with her mom. Doesn't that bond start with breastfeeding?


That depends on the mom. Some manage to break it by the time one is grown.

If you've ever been around someone who's dealt with a personality.disordered divorced mom you'll get it.


----------



## wild jade

Cletus said:


> I understand how a betrayed spouse might find this justification for an unwillingness to reconcile.
> 
> Right up to the point where I yanked out my wife's heart and stomped all over it, there was 20 years of frustration with a woman unwilling to consider the sexual needs of her husband. There is general agreement here that up until that very point, I was the primary victim. I have hundreds of posts in various threads attesting to that general feeling.
> 
> So an affair is an inflection point. It can, in one night, turn you from victim to villain. It can take scales that were heavily weighted in your favor and upend them completely. Under those circumstances, the betrayed spouse can say "out, you've ruined our marriage - you should have done the righteous thing and divorce me". The mature betrayed spouse can ask why and decide if in fact they played a role in contributing to the failure of the marriage (which I wholeheartedly believe to be a system, not just two individuals) and decide if it is worth recovering. Many will be blameless or disinterested. Some will not.


Fair enough. But even having the affair is one way of saying this marriage is ruined and doesn't mean much, isn't it?

If I had an affair, I'm pretty sure that's what I would be saying. So why should I be surprised that my BS would want to leave me?

I do understand your point, though, that there's an awful lot of heart-stomping going on in some cases. Amazing to me that a relationship can survive that much stomping.


----------



## wild jade

larry.gray said:


> Where there certainly are women that pursue the sexually aspect, many women deep in an EA are pulled in to a PA to keep the ego kibbles coming. They'll often do things they refuse their BS. Much like a teenage who looks back on a BF who coerced them, they don't necessarily look back on it fondly.
> 
> The problem a BS faces is they have a known liar so they can't trust to tell thr difference.


Ha! I don't think you understand women very well.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> I understand how a betrayed spouse might find this justification for an unwillingness to reconcile.
> 
> Right up to the point where I yanked out my wife's heart and stomped all over it, there was 20 years of frustration with a woman unwilling to consider the sexual needs of her husband. There is general agreement here that up until that very point, I was the primary victim. I have hundreds of posts in various threads attesting to that general feeling.
> 
> So an affair is an inflection point. It can, in one night, turn you from victim to villain. It can take scales that were heavily weighted in your favor and upend them completely. Under those circumstances, the betrayed spouse can say "out, you've ruined our marriage - you should have done the righteous thing and divorce me". The mature betrayed spouse can ask why and decide if in fact they played a role in contributing to the failure of the marriage (which I wholeheartedly believe to be a system, not just two individuals) and decide if it is worth recovering. Many will be blameless or disinterested. Some will not.


 Did she tell you that she would have preferred that you divorce her?


----------



## Cletus

wild jade said:


> Fair enough. But even having the affair is one way of saying this marriage is ruined and doesn't mean much, isn't it?


For me, that's too general a statement. It meant the marriage is good except for this one thing that I'm not supposed to get anywhere else and that you can't provide. 



> I do understand your point, though, that there's an awful lot of heart-stomping going on in some cases. Amazing to me that a relationship can survive that much stomping.


Stomping implies malicious intent. We didn't set out to be sexually incompatible, and I didn't enter the marriage with the intent of finding the first opportunity to void it. So no real heart-stomping at all, but a lot of careless heart dropping.


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> Did she tell you that she would have preferred that you divorce her?


No. She refused marriage counseling on the grounds that she feared the counselor would tell me to just divorce her.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> No. She refused marriage counseling on the grounds that she feared the counselor would tell me to just divorce her.


Tough question coming: Did she think she deserved it?


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> For me, that's too general a statement. It meant the marriage is good except for this one thing that I'm not supposed to get anywhere else and that you can't provide.


It seems like it is not _can't, _though. It's _won't._ 



> Stomping implies malicious intent. We didn't set out to be sexually incompatible, and I didn't enter the marriage with the intent of finding the first opportunity to void it. So no real heart-stomping at all, but a lot of careless heart dropping.


Which, at least from the outside, looks pretty easy to fix.

I realize it must look pretty different from the inside.


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> Tough question coming: Did she think she deserved it?


I don't know. I've never asked that question and probably never will. I do know that she's aware that she has some hangups regarding sex, but she has also defended them in the past. 

I wouldn't say that she thinks she deserved it, as this is just the betrayed spouse's complementary position to saying it was justified. I think she understands why it happened. I know she lost some respect for me for allowing it.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> I don't know. I've never asked that question and probably never will. I do know that she's aware that she has some hangups regarding sex, but she has also defended them in the past.
> 
> I wouldn't say that she thinks she deserved it, as this is just the betrayed spouse's complementary position to saying it was justified. I think she understands why it happened. I know she lost some respect for me for allowing it.


Idk, Cletus. I think you lasted an awfully long time.

And if you make it another 30 or 40 years, then hats off!


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> It seems like it is not _can't, _though. It's _won't._


No - can't is the correct word. It is not in her ability. You just said, in one sentence, the biggest thing I had to change in my outlook towards my wife to stay in the marriage indefinitely. 



> Which, at least from the outside, looks pretty easy to fix.
> 
> I realize it must look pretty different from the inside.


It doesn't just look pretty different, it IS different. You don't ask a person whom you love to consider doing things that make her want to run away and vomit.


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> Idk, Cletus. I think you lasted an awfully long time.
> 
> And if you make it another 30 or 40 years, then hats off!


It's all downhill from here.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> No - can't is the correct word. It is not in her ability.


Maybe I have misunderstood, then. 



> It doesn't just look pretty different, it IS different. You don't ask a person whom you love to consider doing things that make her want to run away and vomit.


Agreed. Love is sacrificial.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> It's all downhill from here.


Does that comfort you?

For sure, we all have to accept some disappointment in life.


----------



## Cletus

jld said:


> Does that comfort you?
> 
> For sure, we all have to accept some disappointment in life.


Sure. Sex has already lost most of its ability to be a wedge in our marriage. We don't fight over it any more. I don't lie in bed at night losing sleep over it. I don't pursue her in the least. When it happens, it happens, I let her make the decisions and I come along for the ride.

Meanwhile, I know that in 10 or 15 years when even that is gone forever, I will still have a companion with whom I can get along in a platonic relationship until one of us passes. We should all have it so bad.


----------



## jld

Cletus said:


> Sure. Sex has already lost most of its ability to be a wedge in our marriage. We don't fight over it any more. I don't lie in bed at night losing sleep over it. I don't pursue her in the least. When it happens, it happens, I let her make the decisions and I come along for the ride.


She is okay with being in charge like that? You never initiate at all?

Not saying it is bad or anything. It just seems novel, is all. 

Though I do have a friend who told me it is pretty much like that in her marriage, too. But for different reasons than what you have given, at least as I understand it.



> Meanwhile, I know that in 10 or 15 years when even that is gone forever, I will still have a companion with whom I can get along in a platonic relationship until one of us passes. We should all have it so bad.


Wow, you think it is going to be all wrapped up before 70?

Look, Cletus, I admire your commitment. But that just sounds sad.


----------



## 225985

jld said:


> Did she tell you that she would have preferred that you divorce her?




Why would she do that or say that? She is not helpless. If she preferred a divorce she easily could go that route.


----------



## jld

blueinbr said:


> Why would she do that or say that? She is not helpless. If she preferred a divorce she easily could go that route.


Look back at his post. That is where the question came from.


----------



## larry.gray

wild jade said:


> Ha! I don't think you understand women very well.


Ha, I don't think you grasp the life long impacts of being raised with sexual repression as dogma.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Cletus said:


> No - can't is the correct word. It is not in her ability. You just said, in one sentence, the biggest thing I had to change in my outlook towards my wife to stay in the marriage indefinitely.
> 
> It doesn't just look pretty different, it IS different. You don't ask a person whom you love to consider doing things that make her want to run away and vomit.



So it is hard to truly understand this as a CAN'T if she is not even willing to seek counseling. You said she rejected counseling out of fear that you would divorce her. That is sad,


----------



## NobodySpecial

larry.gray said:


> Ha, I don't think you grasp the life long impacts of being raised with sexual repression as dogma.


I do. It is overcomable.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> Wow, you think it is going to be all wrapped up before 70?
> 
> Look, Cletus, I admire your commitment. But that just sounds sad.


What part sounds sad? The part where he stated that he will have a companion with whom he will grow old? The part where he said sex doesn't have the hold it once did? What, exactly, is sad about how he views his years, growing old, with his wife? My own parents had just such a marriage, before they both hit 50. Sadly, they didn't make it into their 70s, as my mother passed away months before she would have turned 61. Of all the things my dad misses with her, companionship is at the very top. If a couple is happy, content, in a platonic marriage in their advanced ages, I fail to see how that marriage could be considered sad, in any way.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> What part sounds sad? The part where he stated that he will have a companion with whom he will grow old? The part where he said sex doesn't have the hold it once did? What, exactly, is sad about how he views his years, growing old, with his wife? My own parents had just such a marriage, before they both hit 50. Sadly, they didn't make it into their 70s, as my mother passed away months before she would have turned 61. Of all the things my dad misses with her, companionship is at the very top. If a couple is happy, content, in a platonic marriage in their advanced ages, I fail to see how that marriage could be considered sad, in any way.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


The part where sex is over in the next 10-15 years.

Yes, to me that sounds sad.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I don't know that it is blaming him. It is offering him some agency in the situation.
> 
> If you tell him his wife needs to change, you set him up to wait on her to do that. What if she never does? He could end up just piling up resentment.
> 
> If he takes hold of the agency he has, and still cannot inspire her greater emotional connection, then he may want to hang up the relationship. He will know he did what he could, but it did not work. Much easier to move on, conscience clear.


 I don't think there's any disputing the fact that a BS needs to be encouraged to see their agency. 

I think where we will part ways is in how that agency is encouraged to be utilized, which IMO should be to have the BS work on self improvement, kill the affair with extreme prejudice, and see the divorce process through unless there is a monumental shift from the WS.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> The part where sex is over in the next 10-15 years.
> 
> Yes, to me that sounds sad.


Except for one thing, jld. He isn't focusing on the sex. You, unfortunately, are. He is focusing on the fact that he will have the woman he loves at his side. The woman he will grow old with. The woman with whom he can talk about life, family, anything. By focusing on sex, or the lack thereof, you are putting it in the center of the relationship. @Cletus, however, is not. I don't think his viewpoint is sad, at all. I think that trying to make it all about sex (or lack of sex) is sad, though. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I don't think there's any disputing the fact that a BS needs to be encouraged to see their agency.
> 
> I think where we will part ways is in how that agency is encouraged to be utilized, which IMO should be to have the BS work on self improvement, kill the affair with extreme prejudice, and see the divorce process through unless there is a monumental shift from the WS.


I agree except for the killing the affair part. I am kind of surprised exposure is not illegal.

And really, if a heart to heart talk does not put them on a good path, I think proceeding straight to divorce is a very reasonable next step.


----------



## jld

Maricha75 said:


> Except for one thing, jld. He isn't focusing on the sex. You, unfortunately, are. He is focusing on the fact that he will have the woman he loves at his side. The woman he will grow old with. The woman with whom he can talk about life, family, anything. By focusing on sex, or the lack thereof, you are putting it in the center of the relationship. @Cletus, however, is not. I don't think his viewpoint is sad, at all. I think that trying to make it all about sex (or lack of sex) is sad, though.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Yes, I am focusing in on the sexual aspect. I do think it is an important part of marriage. Like others have said, it is something we don't do with anyone else.

And everyone is certainly welcome to their own opinion on that. 

Again, Cletus, glad that you have made your peace with your situation. _Bonne continuation!_


----------



## karole

jld said:


> Yes, I am focusing in on the sexual aspect. I do think it is an important part of marriage. Like others have said, it is something we don't do with anyone else.
> 
> And everyone is certainly welcome to their own opinion on that.
> 
> Again, Cletus, glad that you have made your peace with your situation. _Bonne continuation!_


Not having sex in my marriage would be sad to me too! I hate to think of it happening. I guess we all should enjoy it while we can - that's my motto anyway.


----------



## Maricha75

jld said:


> Yes, I am focusing in on the sexual aspect. I do think it is an important part of marriage. Like others have said, it is something we don't do with anyone else.
> 
> And everyone is certainly welcome to their own opinion on that.
> 
> Again, Cletus, glad that you have made your peace with your situation. _Bonne continuation!_


It *is* an important aspect, you are correct. But it isn't *the most important* aspect. And I think that may be what Cletus was implying. That is something I learned from my own parents, along with other older couples. 

But, although Cletus said "10-15 years", I am going to bet he doesn't know for a *fact* it will be that amount of time. I think he was really saying that IF it is completely gone by that time, he's ok with that because of all the OTHER things in his marriage. For all he knows, they may be having sex when they are 80 or even 90. But my question for you, jld, is why do you find it sad that a man is anticipating that in their *advanced years*, they will likely not be having sex? Why is it so important to focus on a *sexual* relationship, rather than a *companion* relationship in their advanced years? I recognize that there are some in those advanced years who do have sex. But I fail to see how it is a *sad* relationship when both parties are in agreement about it.

Maybe it wasn't your intent, but looking at his view for when he is older, your comment seemed rather condescending.

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## jld

Maricha75 said:


> It *is* an important aspect, you are correct. But it isn't *the most important* aspect. And I think that may be what Cletus was implying. That is something I learned from my own parents, along with other older couples.
> 
> But, although Cletus said "10-15 years", I am going to bet he doesn't know for a *fact* it will be that amount of time. I think he was really saying that IF it is completely gone by that time, he's ok with that because of all the OTHER things in his marriage. For all he knows, they may be having sex when they are 80 or even 90. But my question for you, jld, is why do you find it sad that a man is anticipating that in their *advanced years*, they will likely not be having sex? Why is it so important to focus on a *sexual* relationship, rather than a *companion* relationship in their advanced years? I recognize that there are some in those advanced years who do have sex. But I fail to see how it is a *sad* relationship when both parties are in agreement about it.
> 
> Maybe it wasn't your intent, but looking at his view for when he is older, your comment seemed rather condescending.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Maricha, I think you are reading too much into this. 

And I am clearly not the only one who thinks it is sad.

Leaving it at that.


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## Ceegee

jld said:


> I agree except for the killing the affair part. I am kind of surprised exposure is not illegal.





Give it time. 

Adultery is no longer illegal. 

No fault divorce. 

Surely exposure will carry penalty at some point. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Ceegee

jld said:


> Maricha, I think you are reading too much into this.
> 
> 
> 
> And I am clearly not the only one who thinks it is sad.
> 
> 
> 
> Leaving it at that.




I certainly agree. 

Obviously, one could be sad about the loss of physical intimacy and still be happy with their life with their partner. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Maricha75

jld said:


> Maricha, I think you are reading too much into this.
> 
> And I am clearly not the only one who thinks it is sad.
> 
> Leaving it at that.


I'm sorry, jld, but I really don't think I am reading too much into what you are saying. 

Clearly, some agree with you. I just don't see *no sex* as sad, if it is no longer "on the table" in my advanced years. That, likely, is due to the example set by my parents, among other older couples I know in my life. I could see the love between my parents, even after sex was removed from the equation. To me, that is much more important.

Have a nice day.

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## Maricha75

Ceegee said:


> I certainly agree.
> 
> Obviously, one could be sad about the loss of physical intimacy and still be happy with their life with their partner.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You can still have physical intimacy without it actually being sex. 

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## Openminded

Cletus said:


> I don't know. I've never asked that question and probably never will. I do know that she's aware that she has some hangups regarding sex, but she has also defended them in the past.
> 
> I wouldn't say that she thinks she deserved it, as this is just the betrayed spouse's complementary position to saying it was justified. I think she understands why it happened. I know she lost some respect for me for allowing it.


IIRC your past threads have indicated continued frustration with her even after you explained to her what you did. In other words, not any significant improvement on her part. Is that currently the case? If so, has she indicated why she can't -- or won't -- change? 

What change there has been seems to be primarily on your part. Are you okay with that?


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## Cletus

Too Old for Sex? Not at This Nursing Home


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## karole

If sex were off the table due to health problems, that is one thing. If your spouse just up and decided that sex is off the table one day for no apparent reason, no matter your age, it would make me sad as well as angry. I suppose sex is just more important to some people than others. To be honest, I never understood why wives (and husbands too) would deny their spouse? It makes no sense to me. I love sex with my husband and I have sex with him as much for my own enjoyment as his. Why would you want to deprive someone you profess to love? Especially, when you are (hopefully) the only person that is supposed to satisfy that need? Seems cruel to me. 

Of course, I know there are cases of abuse, infidelity, etc. and you would not want to have sex with your spouse in those cases. I'm speaking of marriages that are genuinely happy, except for the lack of sex. 

I honestly just don't understand it.


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## EllisRedding

karole said:


> If sex were off the table due to health problems, that is one thing. If your spouse just up and decided that sex is off the table one day for no apparent reason, no matter your age, it would make me sad as well as angry.


The answer is easy, stop having sex on the table in the first place, move it to the bedroom :wink2:


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## Cletus

Openminded said:


> IIRC your past threads have indicated continued frustration with her even after you explained to her what you did. In other words, not any significant improvement on her part. Is that currently the case? If so, has she indicated why she can't -- or won't -- change?
> 
> What change there has been seems to be primarily on your part. Are you okay with that?


I want to be careful here not to paint myself as some kind of ascetic monk living a chaste lifestyle in deference to my woman.

She has done what is within her power to do. For a while we mixed in some variation that was more heavily frowned on before. She was willing to expand her vocabulary ever so slightly - nothing interesting by TAM standards, but enough to say "I'm trying this for your benefit". I've decided that's just too little payoff for the trouble, so basically we're still doing what we've always done. 

She has shown a genuine improvement in making my pleasure more of a priority within our constraints. We're also empty nesters now. Things are a little bit more spontaneous. 

I am OK with it, except when I'm not, but that's less and less all the time and not as frustrating as before. I don't think it's going to lead to any further marital problems.


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## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> The answer is easy, stop having sex on the table in the first place, move it to the bedroom :wink2:


I love your posts. But I hate your Avatar! That man is so yucky!


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## NobodySpecial

Cletus said:


> I want to be careful here not to paint myself as some kind of ascetic monk living a chaste lifestyle in deference to my woman.
> 
> She has done what is within her power to do. For a while we mixed in some variation that was more heavily frowned on before. She was willing to expand her vocabulary ever so slightly - nothing interesting by TAM standards, but enough to say "I'm trying this for your benefit". I've decided that's just too little payoff for the trouble, so basically we're still doing what we've always done.
> 
> She has shown a genuine improvement in making my pleasure more of a priority within our constraints. We're also empty nesters now. Things are a little bit more spontaneous.


Aw! Well I think that is awesome. Good on both of you.


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## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> I love your posts. But I hate your Avatar! That man is so yucky!


Your wish is my command ma'dam


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## NobodySpecial

EllisRedding said:


> Your wish is my command ma'dam


I can't tell who that is. But it is less barf inducing.


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## EllisRedding

NobodySpecial said:


> I can't tell who that is. But it is less barf inducing.


The question, is that his side profile or is it just half of his face looking at you


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## 225985

karole said:


> If sex were off the table due to health problems, that is one thing. If your spouse just up and decided that sex is off the table one day for no apparent reason, no matter your age, it would make me sad as well as angry.



Yep. And when you have to deal with both of these it makes a person sadder and angrier. 

So what option does the husband have? When he gets a little emotional attention from a friend he is branded a cheater, liar, scumbag, etc


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## TheGoodGuy

EllisRedding said:


> The question, is that his side profile or is it just half of his face looking at you


MIND.. BLOWN..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Curse of Millhaven

.


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## jld

Beautiful post, Curse. As always.


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## larry.gray

Cletus said:


> No. She refused marriage counseling on the grounds that she feared the counselor would tell me to just divorce her.


You've stated the same fact multiple times.

What I presumed before was that you were pressuring her to attend counseling to get her to "meet in the middle" about sex. 

Are you saying that you suggested counseling to assist reconciliation and she turned it down with that stated reason? That's pretty profound; she'd rather rug sweep than face her aversion to anything more than vanilla sex.


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## larry.gray

NobodySpecial said:


> I do. It is overcomable.


If you know the secret to getting women to budge from the obstinate position that there is no reason to change, there are a bunch of men over in SIM who'd like to know it.


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## NobodySpecial

larry.gray said:


> If you know the secret to getting women to budge from the obstinate position that there is no reason to change, there are a bunch of men over in SIM who'd like to know it.


Well I have told my story before. But I will do a brief recap. You don't "get" anyone to do anything. You choose how you are going to live. 

Shortly after our first was born, I was a mother. That held all my attention. And I think it is useful that this transpired then rather than 15 years later. So maybe my advice will not resonate with people who did not stand for themselves sooner. He was not so little that he required all that attention when my husband basically told me that he was not going to live in a sexless marriage. He was never, ever, ever going to anything to hurt me. But eventually, and not in 20 years, if we could not figure it out together, he would leave. He told me that he would rather be with me. That he loved me. But he was not going to live his life without a healthy sex life with a woman that he loved. With joy and passion.

I think he learned it from me, actually. At one point, before kids, I basically stopped doing all his domestic stuff. I was the primary bread winner and the entirety of the home worker. I told him I was not his housekeeper. So I think he learned how to effectively set limits from that experience.

So going back to paragraph one, there were two things about him that were successful. 

One, he listened to my concerns, my history, how my family had placed such a weird value on sexuality and marriage. How as a Catholic, I was raised with extreme shame around sex. This must have been very confusing to him since before marriage we ****ed like bunnies. (Well like young bunnies. Not as well as we do now.) That was bad me. That was rebellious me. But for me MARRIAGE was different. I am not supposed to like it anymore. 

The other was that he never, ever, ever asked me to do anything that I was not all in with. He was very gentle and kind. If I was ever scared, something I never would have been with someone with whom I did not share an emotional vulnerability, he would back away. He took care of me.

I confess sometimes I had to fake it until I could make it. I told him. And he said as long as it is ok with you. 

Over time, he demonstrated that I had nothing to fear from him. I was safe both with his body and his heart. 

By the time our second was born, three years later, sex was happy trails. We had learned that whatever marriage meant was not as important, as it had to been to me, as marriage with EACH OTHER was.

But it is important to note that the catalyst for this was his effectively setting the limit that he was not going to live in a sexless marriage. Otherwise I could have continued in my delusion.


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## LosingHim

larry.gray said:


> I could buy that sometimes it does suck. Not everyone is good in the sack.
> 
> But a LTA, I'm not buying it. You don't go back over and over if its not good. A BS who isn't a fool will have to know that it was better. If they reconcile, they have to do that knowing that fact.
> 
> I would think the sexual dynamic does play in though. Someone who is LD and vanilla isn't going to be bothered by _that specific aspect_ of the affair.


I don't think that's always true. 

Of course it could be in some instances, but that doesn't mean it's true in ALL.

Unfortunately, if the SEX isn't better, that most likely means the emotions are stronger and/or the WS truly believes that the AP meets their other needs better.

My ex husband was AWFUL in the sack. He was very small, lasted less than a minute, missionary sex was pretty much all that was on the menu. But yet I was with him for ten years. Why? Because a lot of my OTHER needs were met. Of course, he abused me too and I should have left long before I did, but I put up with over 10 years of bad sex and abuse because of other needs that were fulfilled. 

I'd imagine some affairs are like that. The sex may be mediocre to ok to alright but the AP meets so many other "needs" that the mediocre sex is overlooked.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## larry.gray

I'm remembering the previous post for the next time there is another endless penis thread. I can point at it when some claim size doesn't matter :B


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## LosingHim

larry.gray said:


> I'm remembering the previous post for the next time there is another endless penis thread. I can point at it when some claim size doesn't matter :B




It does to a certain extent. It is definitely not the MOST important thing. For the most part, it's how you use what you've got.

Bigger doesn't always mean better and smaller doesn't always mean worse. 

What comes into play a LOT is how you use it. If it's small and you're a minute man.....well, that's a problem. But if you're small and you use it well, that's totally different. 

If you're big but you just stab, stab, stab.....that's an issue too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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