# Could be an interesting Valentines Day



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

I had great difficulty choosing a Valentines Day card yesterday. For three decades, I have loved the whole process of seeking out the right card—the one that best expresses my mood at the moment, whether it be love, lust, joy, contentment, gratitude, or some combination thereof. I have also loved the appreciation from my wife as the recipient. 

However…
A few months ago, after 30.5 years of marriage, mostly glorious but rather disappointing sexually, something snapped and the feeling just died. All at once. Battery dead and apparently not capable of taking a new charge. This happened a few days following a sex talk the totality of which took a while to sink in. I’m not sure the specifics of that talk are important here, just that I found it rather disheartening.

There’s simply no such thing as a Valentines Day card that says “The feeling is gone,” nor would I have purchased one if there was (although at one point I did inform her of my change of heart). So I managed to find one that had a cute cover picture that she will think is sweet and isn’t too over the top in sentiment. 

Shortly, I will go home and deliver the card, bouquet, gift basket of items thoughtfully hand-picked by yours truly, and then prepare a gourmet meal which I will serve by candlelight in the rarely used formal dining room with picture window high upon the hill overlooking the city lights.

But I do all this without emotion, more as a matter of habit than an expression of love -- as I have done everything for the last few months. (if there is any emotion, it will probably be a negative one, like resentment or disappointment). I thought had gotten used to living the emotional flatline, but somehow it seems a little extra ridiculous on Valentines Day, kinda’ like how many unattached people find Valentines Day a bit depressing. 

I really have no idea how this is going to go.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Then why bother at all with the ritual? She already knows, therefore; she'll know you're doing out of routine rather than real live and affection.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

I know one place it won't be going to!
(the bedroom)

Anyway that sucks but I get how it is with the card. Hard to force yourself to say things you don't feel. But here's the thing: don't let all the stuff surrounding the day pressure you.

I got my wife a generic card that doesn't have grandiose statements.

Anyway, pro-tip if you're in the situation again:
Get a card meant for a daughter (that obviously does not say daughter in it*) because they never really go into lovey-dovey stuff.

*unless you need to level up your jerk game


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## Magnesium (Jun 19, 2017)

I'm sorry you're "dead". Does your wife understand what that means? Have you done more than mention it? What is her reaction to knowing that you no longer care? 

I do wish I could understand how the lack of sex, or the lack of "good" sex, impacts a man emotionally. I mean, I do get that it is a big, huge deal....I just wish I could understand why and how. For me, sex is of no consequence and I can happily never have it again. In relationships, sex could be awesome and frequent and exciting, provided the person I was doing it with wasn't a source of anger and resentment for me - that's when I would go dead.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I had great difficulty choosing a Valentines Day card yesterday. For three decades, I have loved the whole process of seeking out the right card—the one that best expresses my mood at the moment, whether it be love, lust, joy, contentment, gratitude, or some combination thereof. I have also loved the appreciation from my wife as the recipient.
> 
> However…
> A few months ago, after 30.5 years of marriage, mostly glorious but rather disappointing sexually, something snapped and the feeling just died. All at once. Battery dead and apparently not capable of taking a new charge. This happened a few days following a sex talk the totality of which took a while to sink in. I’m not sure the specifics of that talk are important here, just that I found it rather disheartening.
> ...


Why? Is this how you plan on spending the rest of your life?


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Why? Is this how you plan on spending the rest of your life?


nah, i'd say it's pretty unlikely he's going to give her gourmet dinners every night in that dining room


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Not quite in the same situation as you, but I am not really sure how things are going to go with my wife tonight either. Minor thing taken in a vacuum, but in the broader context...

With work schedules, and plans tonight, we had to go to a church we had never been to before over the noon hour for ash Wednesday mass, and on the way home I mentioned that I thought the priest was pretty decent, and my wife said she felt kind of uncomfortable there for reasons she didn't want to talk about, so I dropped it. Then a couple of minutes later she said she liked our normal church because the priests were all old, and she always thought priests should be old guys, not younger hot guys, and the priest at the church was really hot. She did sort of try and recover half a minute later telling me she thought I was handsome, but yeah, what ever.

I know she is expecting hot passionate sex tonight. She'll get sex tonight, but I really feel like for me, it'll be more of a game time decision how much actual effort I put in because comments like that are not really conducive to getting me all horned up and in the mood for hot passionate sex with her.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

sokillme said:


> Why? Is this how you plan on spending the rest of your life?


Yep. 

For a variety of reasons.

For the most part it's a good life. Everything else about our marriage is sheer perfection. Really, the odds of finding an inspiring sex life AND everything else being top of the pots is pretty close to nil. I used to be a very bold risk taker, but at this point in my life not so much. 

We have built far too much together to set that aside. We have absolutely rocked every other aspect of our lives. 

Most importantly, though, when I make a promise, I follow through. It is the very core of who I am. I will not change that. Throughout my life, I have identified things about myself I either didn't like or that were holding me back and I ALWAYS was successful at changing myself from what I was to what I wanted to be. Truly, I have the ability and will to rebuild myself in any way I want. But I don't want to change this. My integrity is not negotiable. Period. 

When I told her I no longer get that charge when I look at her, she said "So, do you want to find someone else?" (ftr, the tone was accusatory, not suggestive) 
When she said that, I recoiled in terror. It was a true "perish the thought" moment. Again, the very core of who I am and not open to discussion. 

Yes, at this point, I'm fully aware of the life that condemns me to. No, I don't have a martyr complex. I have never worshiped martyrs. I'll take a true winner over a martyr any day. But I don't see walking out on a woman who has been 100% faithful, and rock solid in every other way, as a winning move.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Rob_1 said:


> Then why bother at all with the ritual? She already knows, therefore; she'll know you're doing out of routine rather than real live and affection.


It is an attempt to at least enjoy it at the level we can. Something is better than nothing. Those crab legs would taste less special alone.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I had great difficulty choosing a Valentines Day card yesterday. For three decades, I have loved the whole process of seeking out the right card—the one that best expresses my mood at the moment, whether it be love, lust, joy, contentment, gratitude, or some combination thereof. I have also loved the appreciation from my wife as the recipient.
> 
> However…
> A few months ago, after 30.5 years of marriage, mostly glorious but rather disappointing sexually, something snapped and the feeling just died. All at once. Battery dead and apparently not capable of taking a new charge. This happened a few days following a sex talk the totality of which took a while to sink in. I’m not sure the specifics of that talk are important here, just that I found it rather disheartening.
> ...


What happened?
You had a thread running in September and you seemed really optimistic about your sex life with your wife.As far as I remember you were both talking about really upping things in the bedroom,toys,restraints etc.Now this?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Yeti,

I'm at a loss to figure out why you feel this way about the sex if you love this woman so much. You speak so highly of her. She's a great wife in every other way. Why is the sex so bad? Will she not let you touch her? Does she just kinda lie there and never give the slightest inkling that you touching her makes her feel good? I guess I'm just feeling confused at how it can be that bad.....

I'm thinking the situation is that she is just totally uninterested in sex. I can see how that would make you feel...

Sorry, I hate that for you. Especially since you two have such good stuff elsewhere....


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Yea I'm getting conflicting vibes about this based on how you're describing the issues. I don't think it's really clear what's going on but then again it's really all up to you how much you wanna share.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

Well that is indeed depressing. What happened? I recall some optimism on your part not too long ago, exploring some very tame aspects...She was receptive, no?

My heart goes out to you RMY. You and I became members of TAM at the same time, and for somewhat similar reasons oddly enough. My husband has been on board with regards to our sexual relationship taking on a new vibrancy at this stage in our lives (semi-empty nest). I would be disappointed, hurt, and sad if he wasn't at least receptive. TAM has helped with that dialogue. Is your wife aware of this site? Do you think it would be helpful to her? 

The way you describe selecting a card for your wife is similar to the manner in which I select a Mother's Day card for my very challenging mother. There is no joy in it. I hope this is merely a temporary, transitional stage, and somehow things improve for you both. Counseling? 

In or outside the boudoir, does she do anything with *you* to celebrate today?


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Cards suck. Dont do them. People look at them and throw them away. Cards made by kids? Great. Bought cards? Crap.

Also what was said? We need to know what brought you to this point/state.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

Ouch.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Everything else about our marriage is sheer perfection. ...
> 
> We have absolutely rocked every other aspect of our lives.


I'm going to weigh in as a woman. Is every woman like me? No, not exactly. But I think we are similarly wired. For me, if the relationship was not going well, I just didn't want sex with my partner. Bottom line: If things outside the bedroom are crappy, they are also crappy in the bedroom.

If my husband and I were sharing good times and enjoying each other's company, sex was good. Again, I am addressing this as a woman. The more common interests we shared, be it hiking, camping, great dinnertime conversations, or just watching a movie together, it ended up being reflected in the bedroom. 

So I guess what I'm saying is you and your wife interact as best friends, but as lovers it's not going to happen. Which is sad. Very, very sad. And personally something I don't understand.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> .....However…A few months ago, *after 30.5 years of marriage, mostly glorious but rather disappointing sexually, something snapped and the feeling just died. *
> 
> ....Shortly, I will go home and deliver the card, bouquet, gift basket of items thoughtfully hand-picked by yours truly, and then prepare a gourmet meal which I will serve by candlelight in the rarely used formal dining room with picture window high upon the hill overlooking the city lights.
> 
> *But I do all this without emotion, more as a matter of habit than an expression of love* -- as I have done everything for the last few months. (if there is any emotion, it will probably be a negative one, like resentment or disappointment). I thought had gotten used to living the emotional flatline, *but somehow it seems a little extra ridiculous on Valentines Day*, kinda’ like how many unattached people find Valentines Day a bit depressing.....





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> .....*For the most part it's a good life. Everything else about our marriage is sheer perfection.* Really, the odds of finding an inspiring sex life AND everything else being top of the pots is pretty close to nil. I used to be a very bold risk taker, but at this point in my life not so much.
> 
> *We have built far too much together to set that aside*. We have absolutely rocked every other aspect of our lives.
> 
> ...





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It is an attempt to at least enjoy it at the level we can. *Something is better than nothing. *Those crab legs would taste less special alone.


First my heart goes out to you and the pain you feel. I think I can understand what you are saying.

One of the life observations of my wife's family members we invite over for Thanksgiving and Christmas is the "illusion of family during the holidays." By that I mean a sister-in-law who forgets my wife's birthdays and embezzled inherited money from her parent's estate when she was trustee can come over and expect to be treated in a loved and loving manner as if there is absolutely no baggage she carries. Other of her family members and go on and on about what a great family they have and how wonderful it was growing up with two parents who bordered on alcoholic and were emotionally abusive at times. 

During certain holidays I feel we are programed to need displays of the illusion of having a perfect loving family. Christmas is especially one of those holidays. 

I also think that Valentine's Day is similarly filled with expectations of spousal love and sex and demands some illusion of such to be shared by a husband and wife. 

I know that Valentine's Day is important to my wife in many ways. I usually have flowers delivered to her office so she can be the envy of the other women she works with. It sort of gives her bragging rights as to being loved and cherished, even if she says nothing about the flowers to the women she works with. It has proven to be a very important gesture to her. 

One of my wife's love languages is acts of service and the belief that a good wife cooks her husband a good meal after work. She had me go out and buy the steaks on Saturday so that we would have them for tonight so that she can fulfill her idea of being a good loving wife by cooking me a great dinner. 

As you say a great dinner is nice, but there are other things that would please my heart much more. Oh well. 

My concern for you (and something I always need to be aware of) is the a wife of many many years knows what her husband is thinking much of the time because she can read his body language, figure out what his facial expressions mean and understand what is behind the tone of voice he uses in communicating.

If you are going for the illusion of a Valentine's Day, then you need to bit your tongue and try to put a little more enthusiasm into it. 

Good luck, I hope you pull it off.

Yes as the survivor of a sex starved marriage that was turned around, I think I can understand both your frustration, your honor to your marriage vows and how the rest of your marriage still has enormous value to you. My advice is to at some point get into marriage counseling with your wife and let her know how you feel and work on rebuilding things.

In my case, I have told my wife that prior to our both retiring, I want us to go into marriage counseling for a marriage tune-up so that we have a great rest of our life. There seems to be a new class of marriage counseling or individual counseling that is entitled "life transition" counseling. Sometimes that includes divorce, death of a spouse or family member, major life threatening or terminal illness, loss of a job or retirement. As I explained to my wife, after our retirement and as we age, we can expect some of those things to happen at some point and a little tune-up marriage counseling might help prepare us for what we will likely face in the future.

Good luck and stay optimistic. I would not give up all hope. Again, I am a big fan of MW Davis and her way of using self-change to change the dynamic in a dysfunctional marriage in a way that may result in some positive improvements.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

@Rocky Mountain Yeti - I think the back story would be worth posting here.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Prodigal said:


> I'm going to weigh in as a woman. Is every woman like me? No, not exactly. But I think we are similarly wired. For me, if the relationship was not going well, I just didn't want sex with my partner. Bottom line: If things outside the bedroom are crappy, they are also crappy in the bedroom.
> 
> If my husband and I were sharing good times and enjoying each other's company, sex was good. Again, I am addressing this as a woman. The more common interests we shared, be it hiking, camping, great dinnertime conversations, or just watching a movie together, it ended up being reflected in the bedroom.
> 
> So I guess what I'm saying is you and your wife interact as best friends, but as lovers it's not going to happen. Which is sad. Very, very sad. And personally something I don't understand.


Your post is exactly as I had been led to believe life/marriage should be and exactly what I'd expected. It makes perfect sense.

From my wife's point of view, as she has very directly and sincerely explained it to me, she was (almost) always highly satisfied with our sex life. We do indeed have all those other things you mentioned, and had fully established all of them well before we even started having sex, and we have done an excellent job maintaining them throughout our marriage (with a few exceptions such as in the first year of the lives of each of our three children when she was highly focused on them). So with that foundation, she would say that our well rounded, and emotionally intimate, relationship was indeed reflected in the bedroom. 

Her threshold the adequacy of physical contact to qualify as "interacting as lovers" is just a lot lower than mine.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Evinrude58 said:


> Yeti,
> 
> I'm at a loss to figure out why you feel this way about the sex if you love this woman so much. You speak so highly of her. She's a great wife in every other way. Why is the sex so bad? Will she not let you touch her? Does she just kinda lie there and never give the slightest inkling that you touching her makes her feel good? I guess I'm just feeling confused at how it can be that bad.....
> 
> ...


Well, she's definitely not "totally uninterested in sex." In fact, things aren't as extreme as they may sound. I'll elaborate in the next post.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Thanks to all for both the probing questions and relevant observations. Your inputs are all valuable and appreciated. 

Okay, I guess I need to fill in the blanks. I'll try to be succinct. 

Then I'll share how the evening went. 

Regarding the shift from the optimism to the crash in passion, here's how it went down, in three steps:

1. First, I greatly appreciated her willingness to push herself outside her comfort zone, sexually speaking, in an attempt to strengthen our marriage. As we began stretching ourselves (just a little bit, mind you; still very tame and rather vanilla by the standards of many on this site), I couldn't help but appreciate her dedication, but I also couldn't help but feel that it was all mechanical rather than inspired. She was doing it as just a maintenance function rather than a pleasure function. Now, there may be times we need to engage in maintenance sex, but if that's all it ever is, that's rather depressing. So A+ for willingness, but something significantly less for enthusiasm. 

2. A combination of things (mostly some less than attractive road rage) led my wife to question why I was angry at the world (she's particularly concerned about my blood pressure here again). I explained that we're now much older and what little interest she had, despite her admirable willingness to try to make things better, was gone. I studied menopause, knew what to expect, and have been exceedingly patient and supportive. I knew for decades the time was coming and that things might be different after, and I was prepared for that. But one day I woke up and realized that that preparation was based on having really lived before that time came, which didn't happen. That one chance was now gone. One shot in life, and I blew it. There was this incredible sense of finality that I'd never before encountered, and it hit me hard. 

I know that many women continue to enjoy great sex lives after menopause, but every indication is that my wife will not be one of them. Why? In retrospect, her desire and enthusiasm have always been very biologically driven. Which is ironic because we waited a long time to have kids and she didn't even want kids early on, but she really got frisky about once a month. She told me a friend of hers expressed it perfectly "for 27 days, my husband's a jerk... but on that 28th day I can't keep my hands off him." (btw, this dude is a jerk). Fortuantley wife doesn't feel like that about me and she appreciates me greatly in every other way, but the once/4wks lust is a definite similarity. Similarly, she had little to no interest from pregnancy through breastfeeding. For someone who never wanted kids, she really made me feel like a sperm donor. 

I always knew when the egg was passing. It was so obvious. But now, with menopause, the egg will pass no more, so even the very infrequent time of great interest is flat gone, with no basis for hope that it will change. 

To top it all off, through the course of discussion, as I was explaining that I could handle this better if we had rocked it when we could, she told me that during what I thought was a low period (about a decade ago), she kept a diary to track our sexual activity. She proudly proclaimed to me that during that period we had, more often than not, had sex once/week. She was very pleased with herself for putting fort the effort to do so (although it was always pure vanilla). So I was pleased with the effort, but the problem was I felt like it was a rather horrible thing that this should be such a chore. I learned to live without the spontaneity, but I never learned to be satisfied without the fun factor.

3. While she was willing to try things I suggested, the frequency would still be low as her menopausal body needs lots of time to recover. Not her fault and not something I would ever hold against her. Slightly more concerning was that she was rather blunt about "you do the research, find the ideas, make suggestions, and I'll try to go along." Not really a problem in and of itself as I'm usually the leader and the one who carries the load and that dynamic usually works. But my reserved, follower of a wife does indeed take the lead when she's truly interested in something. She did exhaustive research and built a fantastic itinerary for our vacation to Hawaii. She pours tons of time into managing our investments, She was highly diligent in studying how much life insurance I should have. She absolutely devours sources on how to be a better conversationalist, meet and get along with people, make spirituality work in her life, help our children when they have an issue, how to manage my blood pressure, etc. She has never (that I know of) sought information on building a mutually satisfying sex life. As I mentioned in an earlier post, she thinks our sex life is fine and dandy, so it's just not a priority for her. I told her frequent sex has been shown to keep blood pressure down, but she'd rather I take meds. Ouch. 

_And why do you want to make sure I live longer? Income? Companionship? To maintain your quality of life? Shy are you not thinking of what would improve my quality of life in such a way that I'd even want to live longer with you?_

The renewed interest coincided with our becoming empty nesters and was driven by her fear of being alone, rather than any direct lust for me.

_____________________________________________________________

So, a couple days after that discussion, I suddenly woke up dead. 

Meanwhile, she's been increasingly touchy. She especially loves to fondle my muscles as I've been hitting the weights a lot and have become ridiculously solid for a 53 year old. She has also begun fondling me elsewhere, but there is no response. No, it's not low T or any other manifestation of middle age. As I said when I started, this phenomenon occurred all at once and my lack of physical response coincides perfectly with the loss of emotional response.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Now, to wrap up, last night's Valentines Day dinner was actually very pleasant... and bonding in a variety of ways. 

I really did up dinner (see the dinner thread) and afterward she asked me what I wanted to do. I decided a little bonding exercise was in order.

So I sat two chairs side by side but facing each other. We sat side by side, held hands, and looked into each other's eyes. I told her we should take turns telling each other something we loved or appreciated about each other... but it had to be something we thought of _after _I had lost it--more as an exercise for me than her really. So, we sat there exchanging appreciation and kissing between exchange. 

I love you because .... 
Kiss
I appreciate when you ....
Kiss
You turn me on when .... 
Kiss

I'll think I can stop there. 

It ended up being a beautiful evening. 

That said, the ultimate elephant is still in the room. Just how much enthusiastic engagement do I need to consider the marriage properly sustained and just how much can she offer? i'm have no expectations that those two questions will end up having similar answers.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You know what you have written has nothing to do with your wife, right?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Yep.
> 
> For a variety of reasons.
> 
> ...


Apologies for quoting the whole thing but it sounds eerie similar. And, between fate and Trump, we're now separated.

I don't particularly care about relationships or any of the softcore stuff now. It's all about me. The feeling you get when you come home and it's empty. I can lay in bed and watch Netflix or catch up with my Wikipedia reading.

Haven't "celebrated" Valentine's Day for over a decade. I did a pretty decent job detaching and it paid off. No puppy dog feelings. She's gone, I'm gone. Maybe in six months once the paperwork begins she can understand.

A while back I used to feel slightly off when I'd see couples my age doing the lovey dovey routines - laughing, PDA, things together. Then I hardened up. We had our run, 25 decent years and 2 awesome daughters. The Roman empire didn't last for ever, nor did the Russians, the British... 

Now all I want is a 2019 Mini Cooper JCW and a drive thru some of Kentucky's finest distilleries. Narrow curvy roads, good food, good people, and good memories.


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## Um Excuse Me (Feb 3, 2018)

Dear Yeti,

After reading your story, I completely understand how you feel. In fact, our lives are strangely similar, as your story describes. Nonetheless, I will be entering my thirty second year of marriage this year and people often congratulate me for making it this long. In fact, they often ask me; "what's your secret" to making it work? Honestly, I'm not sure anymore. I believe its harder to make it work now at this point in my life than it was years ago with kids, work, school, etc., specifically for the reasons you mention above. Unfortunately, your story is all too familiar to me. I am living it and like you, I'm not quite sure what to do at this point.

Good luck and feel free to PM me if you want to discuss further.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

john117 said:


> Apologies for quoting the whole thing but it sounds eerie similar. And, between fate and Trump, we're now separated.
> 
> I don't particularly care about relationships or any of the softcore stuff now. It's all about me. The feeling you get when you come home and it's empty. I can lay in bed and watch Netflix or catch up with my Wikipedia reading.
> 
> ...


John,
Despite the tragic origin, I have to say I really enjoyed reading this post. Best of luck to you, brother, on your next journey.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Nothing tragic about it. People evolve. 

Sometimes they even grow up


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

john117 said:


> Nothing tragic about it. People evolve.
> 
> Sometimes they even grow up


I suppose I should have said "the _seemingly _tragic origin." The part I loved was the growing/evolution.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

My poison was described already. Is yours a Specialized Roubaix? Or Rockhopper?

(Try a $15k 15-17 lb road bike - carbon fiber frame etc. I like died... Amazing piece)


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> You know what you have written has nothing to do with your wife, right?


I'm not sure what your point is. It's definitely focused on my experience so I think I get that part of your query, but it's largely about our relationship, of which my wife is an integral part. 

I understand how I react is up to me. However, much of that reaction is not entirely voluntary, at least not initially. For the last couple decades, I think I had done a very good job managing the mismatch. But the reason I finally decided to (anonymously) share this tale was the involuntary (at least at the onset)... and rather shocking to me... response I had. 

Looking at this woman with whom I had shared everything, bonded so intensely with, lived over 60% of my entire life and almost all of my adult life with, who's mere glance or giggle had for over three decades sent my spirits soaring... and all of a sudden feeling nothing, and I mean flat out nothing, was frightening, very frightening. And I don't scare easily. This may well be the first time I've ever admitted being frightened by anything, even anonymously. I've always been a passionate person, living a passionate but lighthearted life on all fronts; work, relationships, hobbies, family, etc. Suddenly with the flip of a switch I didn't see or (at least consciously) control, I'm the walking dead. Horrifying. The first challenge in my long and often challenging life that I didn't have a core, innate confidence in just conquering and ultimately growing and gaining strength from. I don't know if I'm making this sound too dramatic, or conversely not adequately expressing the gravity of my dilemma. Who am I when I wake up and I'm not me anymore? I know many have faced such a thing, but that doesn't make it any less earth shattering.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Passivity. Resignation. Defeat.

All wrapped up in the blanket of "Duty, Honor, and Tradition". 

It's "old fashioned" faux masculinity like this keeps men down, serving and providing at the expense of their own happiness. It's giving love and attention to those who have obvious disdain for you, because, hey... what else you gonna do? 

It's a lack of abundance in life.

It's brutally sad.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

How much of this is your wife and how much is realizing you're older now, there ain't no Senior Prom on the horizon, and feeling "dead" because you've realized this is it, no do-overs, and you can never go back to youth and potential?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> Passivity. Resignation. Defeat.
> 
> All wrapped up in the blanket of "Duty, Honor, and Tradition".
> 
> ...


What are you suggesting OP do? His wife isn't going to change. She can't manufacture passion. Are you suggesting he leave the relationship?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> How much of this is your wife and how much is realizing you're older now, there ain't no Senior Prom on the horizon, and feeling "dead" because you've realized this is it, no do-overs, and you can never go back to youth and potential?


This.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm not sure what your point is. It's definitely focused on my experience so I think I get that part of your query, but it's largely about our relationship, of which my wife is an integral part.
> 
> I understand how I react is up to me. However, much of that reaction is not entirely voluntary, at least not initially. For the last couple decades, I think I had done a very good job managing the mismatch. But the reason I finally decided to (anonymously) share this tale was the involuntary (at least at the onset)... and rather shocking to me... response I had.
> 
> Looking at this woman with whom I had shared everything, bonded so intensely with, lived over 60% of my entire life and almost all of my adult life with, who's mere glance or giggle had for over three decades sent my spirits soaring... and all of a sudden feeling nothing, and I mean flat out nothing, was frightening, very frightening. And I don't scare easily. This may well be the first time I've ever admitted being frightened by anything, even anonymously. I've always been a passionate person, living a passionate but lighthearted life on all fronts; work, relationships, hobbies, family, etc. Suddenly with the flip of a switch I didn't see or (at least consciously) control, I'm the walking dead. Horrifying. The first challenge in my long and often challenging life that I didn't have a core, innate confidence in just conquering and ultimately growing and gaining strength from. I don't know if I'm making this sound too dramatic, or conversely not adequately expressing the gravity of my dilemma. Who am I when I wake up and I'm not me anymore? I know many have faced such a thing, but that doesn't make it any less earth shattering.


Have you tried talking to a therapist about this? I agree with Farside and MJJEAN that this seems to have more to do with some transitional changes occurring in your life than with your dynamic with your wife. I'm not saying your feelings are not very real and very difficult, but that you might be focusing too much on your disappointing sex life to explain and understand the source of those feelings. 

You have a long history with your wife and you still have many years with her. I think before you just accept that some feelings have "died," and that there is nothing you can do about it, you might want to at least consider some counseling. I think we all go through a pretty major shift in mid-life, and that shift often does include a sort of crisis of identity, feelings of loss, fear of what comes next, etc, etc. I also think that, for those of us hitting mid-life in long-term marriages, our identities are VERY much tied to our roles as spouse and, often, parent. How we function in those roles is inextricably bound to our personal identities and feelings of self-worth, and, at times, can place undue and unhealthy pressure on the marriage to help keep us feeling validated and comfortable in our skins. 

I would say that some healthy emotional "disentangling" is often beneficial at the point you are at in your marriage. On this forum, "detachment"is often talked about as a negative thing for the relationship, but I don't think that is always the case. It might be time to ratchet down some of the ties your personal identity has to your wife and to your marriage. 

Right or wrong, men and women in traditional, long-term marriages seem to internalize their roles as husband and father, wife and mother--often to the obscurment of their personal identities. I makes for a very cohesive and strong family unit, but when the family is grown and out, we are left looking in the mirror and asking, "who am I? who _was_ I?" We have time to contemplate the disappointments and failures of our marriages (and all marriages that survive into multiple decades have them), and to wonder what "could have been."

This isn't just happening to you--it's happening to your wife, too. She, too, is navigating her own transition, although it might be less troubling to her than yours is to you. Nonetheless, she isn't without compassion for your feelings: she is, however, powerless to change her own. Like you, she wants to be accepted by her life partner. 

It's not an easy place to be as an individual or a couple, but I think with self-awareness and maybe some guidance, this time of transition doesn't have to result in you feeling like something in you has died.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

dadstartingover said:


> Passivity. Resignation. Defeat.
> 
> All wrapped up in the blanket of "Duty, Honor, and Tradition".
> 
> ...


While I appreciate all input, I'm not buying this one for a whole lot of reasons. First thing that comes to mind is that there is great value, and fulfillment, in fulfilling duty. To fail in duty can be far more damaging to one's own happiness than the alternative. 

But philosophy aside, the even greater flaw here is that, even with the infrequent sex, my wife has no disdain for me.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> How much of this is your wife and how much is realizing you're older now, there ain't no Senior Prom on the horizon, and feeling "dead" because you've realized this is it, no do-overs, and you can never go back to youth and potential?


Oh, you're spot on here and I have identified exactly that as a root cause. I have no doubt that being at this point in my life is the catalyst. 

Just as her being more attentive to my needs is driven by our new status as empty nesters. Even our dog died right after junior went to college. 

We worked really hard on preparing for this time of life and, for the most part, we did everything right. We began actively dating again a good year before the last fledgling left the nest, and we really enjoyed the increase in "us time." We know how to talk to each other and enjoy each others company in general. And we both have friend and hobbies outside the home, so we don't have to rely exclusively on each other. Everything else seemed to be in perfect balance.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I know all about the "all of a sudden feeling nothing, and I mean flat out nothing" part. To me it was the realization of exactly that the morning after intimacy. You wake up and expect the usual feel good hormone thingie and all of a sudden it's WTF land. You feel exactly nothing, flat out nothing. 

It's an awful feeling after 3 decades together.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Oh, you're spot on here and I have identified exactly that as a root cause. I have no doubt that being at this point in my life is the catalyst.
> 
> Just as her being more attentive to my needs is driven by our new status as empty nesters. Even our dog died right after junior went to college.
> 
> We worked really hard on preparing for this time of life and, for the most part, we did everything right. We began actively dating again a good year before the last fledgling left the nest, and we really enjoyed the increase in "us time." We know how to talk to each other and enjoy each others company in general. And we both have friend and hobbies outside the home, so we don't have to rely exclusively on each other. Everything else seemed to be in perfect balance.


If you're aware that these feelings of "deadness" are due to age/stage in life then it would seem an attitude adjustment is in order. I really believe it's all about attitude. Silver lining, sunny side up, that kind of thing.

Also, maybe take a look around and make some changes. You prepared for this stage of life based on how you thought you'd think and feel and what you'd need, right? Well, how about how you actually feel and what you actually need? Maybe there is too much of that balance and you want/need more time together. Maybe those friends and hobbies have gotten a bit stale and you need to shake things up a bit by taking on a new hobby and new challenges while meeting new people to befriend.

Being empty nesters probably means you're close to retirement. Maybe re-think retiring and what that will look like, too.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Please see my last post as part of my response to what you've added here. I don't mean for any of this to sound argumentative, and I truly appreciate your carefully considered input. Some of the obvious answers just don't seem to apply, so I'll try to explain why I feel that way. 

I will also add the following in your text:



GettingIt_2 said:


> Have you tried talking to a therapist about this?
> Actually, I have considered IC. Which is a HUGE step for me. I've always been able to figure out anything and everything on my own. I'm not good at asking for help. I'm also leery of success; it seems counseling is a real crap shoot and I have little faith in the outcome. TAM has been very good; I honestly thing a variety of non-professional opinions gives me more to chew on than one pro who may or may not be competent, and if competent, may or may not be right for me. It's still not off the table, though.
> 
> I agree with Farside and MJJEAN that this seems to have more to do with some transitional changes occurring in your life than with your dynamic with your wife.
> ...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> If you're aware that these feelings of "deadness" are due to age/stage in life then it would seem an attitude adjustment is in order. *I really believe it's all about attitude. Silver lining, sunny side up, that kind of thing.*
> That's exactly how I've been able to keep it together for the last couple decades! That's also part of why I'm still here, despite the sudden shock. I tend to be an eternal optimist. I'm often accused of seeing the world through rose colored glasses, often to my own detriment. The shock was kind of like "look what all that optimism and effort got you! That's what I've got to get over.
> 
> Also, maybe take a look around and make some changes. You prepared for this stage of life based on how you thought you'd think and feel and what you'd need, right? Well, how about how you actually feel and what you actually need? Maybe there is too much of that balance and you want/need more time together. Maybe those friends and hobbies have gotten a bit stale and you need to shake things up a bit by taking on a new hobby and new challenges while meeting new people to befriend.
> ...


I know, everything I say sounds like it's all peaches and cream and I should have no cause for complaint.

Which is why this can be so befuddling.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Aww, Rocky, I hope you two can figure this out. Is it possible that you two spend too much time together? Maybe you can take a little vacation without her and see if that jump-starts the lovin' feelings.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> While I appreciate all input, I'm not buying this one for a whole lot of reasons. First thing that comes to mind is that there is great value, and fulfillment, in fulfilling duty. To fail in duty can be far more damaging to one's own happiness than the alternative.
> 
> But philosophy aside, the even greater flaw here is that, even with the infrequent sex, my wife has no disdain for me.


My apologies! I actually confused you with another poster who was cheated on... I combined the two stories in my little brain.

Carry on!


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I don't mean for any of this to sound argumentative, and I truly appreciate your carefully considered input. Some of the obvious answers just don't seem to apply, so I'll try to explain why I feel that way.





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I know, everything I say sounds like it's all peaches and cream and I should have no cause for complaint.
> 
> Which is why this can be so befuddling.


At the end of the day, you're struggling. It's affecting how you feel about your wife. Things seem like they should be great, but you are hurting. 

I think you've got nothing to lose by going to talk to someone before you find other feelings "dying." You might not think it will help, but you sort of owe it to your marriage and to your wife to not leave that (rather large) stone unturned. 

Look at it as a fresh new single track full of switchbacks, rock gardens, drops and step ups: you might go over the bars, but then again, you might come screaming down the sweet downhill at the end with _that feeling_.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

GettingIt_2 said:


> At the end of the day, you're struggling. It's affecting how you feel about your wife. Things seem like they should be great, but you are hurting.
> 
> I think you've got nothing to lose by going to talk to someone before you find other feelings "dying." You might not think it will help, but you sort of owe it to your marriage and to your wife to not leave that (rather large) stone unturned.
> 
> Look at it as a fresh new single track full of switchbacks, rock gardens, drops and step ups: you might go over the bars, but then again, you might come screaming down the sweet downhill at the end with _that feeling_.


Very nice post. Thank you. Of all the obviously or potentially negative things I’ve come across in my life, not feeling in love with my wife is the worst, which is why I’m willing to consider something I ordinarily wouldn’t.


And thanks for reminding me that there’s not much in life that can’t be covered by a good mountain bike analogy. Even when I do go over the bars, I usually learn something from that as well.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> Aww, Rocky, I hope you two can figure this out. Is it possible that you two spend too much time together? Maybe you can take a little vacation without her and see if that jump-starts the lovin' feelings.


I think that’s pretty well covered by the time I spend Mountain biking and the time I spend traveling for work.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

john117 said:


> My poison was described already. Is yours a Specialized Roubaix? Or Rockhopper?
> 
> (Try a $15k 15-17 lb road bike - carbon fiber frame etc. I like died... Amazing piece)


Sorry, John,
Just saw this little post slipped in between all the more voluminous ones. 

I have three four bikes actually. The only road bike is a Fuji Team Carbon. 2K new, but got it off craigslist for a mere $800. But a road bike for me is only for occasional aerobic cross training. My love is mountain biking. Pavement just doesnt' hold my attention the way a challenging, rocky trail does.

My mountain bikes are:
2000 *Rocky Mountain* Oxygen Race (Hardtail cross country bike)
2008 *Yeti *Five Carbon (full suspension trail bike)
2015 Foes Mixer Enduro (full suspension enduro bike)


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

dadstartingover said:


> Passivity. Resignation. Defeat.
> 
> All wrapped up in the blanket of "Duty, Honor, and Tradition".
> 
> ...





Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> While I appreciate all input, I'm not buying this one for a whole lot of reasons. First thing that comes to mind is that there is great value, and fulfillment, in fulfilling duty. To fail in duty can be far more damaging to one's own happiness than the alternative.
> 
> But philosophy aside, the even greater flaw here is that, even with the infrequent sex, my wife has no disdain for me.


Rocky I know you addressed dso's post already and he even apologized for confusing you with another.

But quoting his post for one reason.

The passivity part. Maybe because I see some of me in you. The wanting the wife to WANT me/it. So at times I (you?) have been too passive. Let it go too long waiting for her to WANT it. Not realizing that sometimes they want to just be taken. That them being the wonderful wives they are means even if its not at the forefront of their mind right now, they are willing and deep down want to be ****ed at times when hubby is horny.

Just a thought. Maybe it helps?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Middle of Everything said:


> Rocky I know you addressed dso's post already and he even apologized for confusing you with another.
> 
> But quoting his post for one reason.
> 
> ...


Such a dynamic did exist for a while. Early on, I was rather forceful and she was good with that most of the time. After the newness wore off, and especially after kids, she became less receptive, and then when compounded by health issues, she really dropped off. 

After that, taking charge was most definitely a not a good idea. So I did enter a rather long phase of just letting her come to me. That way nobody ever gets turned down. 

As you probably know, that led to just greater dissatisfaction. It took me a while to figure out that that also led to greater dissatisfaction on her part as well. Even though she might not want to accommodate all my advances, she liked receiving them. I think it is important for her to feel desired, even if she's not doing a lot to fan the flames of desire herself. 

When I returned to demonstrating some pure lust in addition to all the day-to-day love, she at least smiled more (so long as I did it in a fun way rather than a demanding way). While it didn't change things drastically, it was noticeably better not just in the bedroom but overall in the relationship when I got back to being her horndog as well as her companion.

And yes, even when she's not fully in the mood or physically capable of responding fully, she sometimes does enjoy letting me go crazy on her.

It's often like walking a tight rope though, and it's easy to teeter off either side. Fortunately, she has shown much greater tolerance for my occasional bobbles as the years have gone on.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Middle of Everything said:


> The passivity part. Maybe because I see some of me in you. The wanting the wife to WANT me/it. So at times I (you?) have been too passive. Let it go too long waiting for her to WANT it. Not realizing that sometimes they want to just be taken. *That them being the wonderful wives they are means even if its not at the forefront of their mind right now, they are willing and deep down want to be ****ed at times when hubby is horny.*


For me, this is spot-on. Aside from about a week every month when I walk about full of physical desire, my ability and desire to be overtly sexual towards my husband isn't "organic." I mean, I can hoop-jump and go through the motions because I know he likes it, but it's a much different feeling than having those hormones making me horny. That being said, there is NOTHING more sexually satisfying than having a husband who doesn't "watch and wait," but who just steps up and takes what he wants with confidence and love. Interestingly, after that happens, even when it was the LAST thing on my mind, I'm usually horny as hell for a day or so. So while I can rely on hormones a few days a month to keep my drive up, the rest of the time I rely on my husband's hormones to keep our sex lives humming and healthy. He's got enough drive for both of us, so he takes on that role willingly because he understands that my sexuality is fundamentally different than his. 



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Such a dynamic did exist for a while. Early on, I was rather forceful and she was good with that most of the time. After the newness wore off, and especially after kids, she became less receptive, and then when compounded by health issues, she really dropped off.
> 
> After that, taking charge was most definitely a not a good idea. So I did enter a rather long phase of just letting her come to me. That way nobody ever gets turned down.
> 
> ...


My husband and I went through the EXACT same pattern. Sadly, as a result, we lost a decade of our marriage to sub par sex after we started having kids. Even now, 5 years after we "righted the ship," we frequently talk about it and take care to stay on top of things so we don't slip into another destructive pattern. Nothing is worse for our marriage than a poor sex life.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

GettingIt_2 said:


> For me, this is spot-on. Aside from about a week every month when I walk about full of physical desire, my ability and desire to be overtly sexual towards my husband isn't "organic." I mean, I can hoop-jump and go through the motions because I know he likes it, but it's a much different feeling than having those hormones making me horny. That being said, there is NOTHING more sexually satisfying than having a husband who doesn't "watch and wait," but who just steps up and takes what he wants with confidence and love. Interestingly, after that happens, even when it was the LAST thing on my mind, I'm usually horny as hell for a day or so. So while I can rely on hormones a few days a month to keep my drive up, the rest of the time I rely on my husband's hormones to keep our sex lives humming and healthy. He's got enough drive for both of us, so he takes on that role willingly because he understands that my sexuality is fundamentally different than his.


I believe that most female desire works as yours does.

The problem is that this is very difficult to make work in real life.

First, there are many men who seem like they would be unhappy with this scenario. They've been raised to believe that women's sexual desire works exactly the same as theirs (spontaneously). If their wife doesn't have spontaneous desire, then she doesn't want sex and they aren't about to have sex with their wife if she doesn't want it for herself. 

Second, it's entirely possible that one's wife's desire may actually work like this but she doesn't realize it. Therefore, she rejects out of hand that which might be the best way of getting herself to feel aroused.

Third, while women may well enjoy feeling desired, most women are going to want to reserve the right to turn down the approach. Every man has a "turn-down" threshold that, if exceeded, is going to cause him to stop approaching. Thus begins the death spiral. Some men might be able to deal with a 90% rejection rate but the downside is that they might be a sociopath. 

About the only way that I can see this working is for the woman to commit to (almost) never saying "no". In this day and age I think that's going to be a tough sell to most women.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

In today's political climate, Watch and Wait is a much safer plan. I'm way too old to be a bad boy.
I've been medically low drive for three or four weeks now. This could initiate a Death Spiral, or it could give her what she asked for, less pressure, or both. 
Honestly, It's been so long since I seriously initiated that I couldn't tell you what my rejection rate is.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I believe that most female desire works as yours does.


I'm no unicorn, that's for sure, but I hesitate to say I'm representative. Maybe.



Buddy400 said:


> The problem is that this is very difficult to make work in real life.
> 
> First, there are many men who seem like they would be unhappy with this scenario. They've been raised to believe that women's sexual desire works exactly the same as theirs (spontaneously). If their wife doesn't have spontaneous desire, then she doesn't want sex and they aren't about to have sex with their wife if she doesn't want it for herself.


"Raised to believe," or "misled by porn?" I'd say some of both, but probably put more weight on the latter. 



Buddy400 said:


> Second, it's entirely possible that one's wife's desire may actually work like this but she doesn't realize it. Therefore, she rejects out of hand that which might be the best way of getting herself to feel aroused.


Understanding our own sexuality can sometimes be hard--we are "taught" things, too. 



Buddy400 said:


> Third, while women may well enjoy feeling desired, most women are going to want to reserve the right to turn down the approach. Every man has a "turn-down" threshold that, if exceeded, is going to cause him to stop approaching. Thus begins the death spiral. Some men might be able to deal with a 90% rejection rate but the downside is that they might be a sociopath.
> 
> About the only way that I can see this working is for the woman to commit to (almost) never saying "no". In this day and age I think that's going to be a tough sell to most women.


I think there are tons of couples out there with great sex lives, and not all of those dynamics looks like mine. I do think that keeping sex satisfying for the long haul (we've been together almost 30 years) can require some willingness to take a hard look at what ISN'T working and figure out how why. 

In the case of my own marriage and my own sexuality, me having choice in the matter muddies things up, and my husband waiting around for me to be "like him" in my desire is a non-starter. But we arrived at this dynamic with intention, consent, and love . . . and frequent, honest communication. Those things ARE possible to make work in real life.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Acceptance is a good thing.

Your almost there.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> First, there are many men who seem like they would be unhappy with this scenario. They've been raised to believe that women's sexual desire works exactly the same as theirs (spontaneously). If their wife doesn't have spontaneous desire, then she doesn't want sex and they aren't about to have sex with their wife if she doesn't want it for herself.





GettingIt_2 said:


> I'm no unicorn, that's for sure, but I hesitate to say I'm representative. Maybe.
> "Raised to believe," or "misled by porn?" I'd say some of both, but probably put more weight on the latter.


It's interesting that I usually read that porn is "all about male pleasure" and makes it seem as though women's sexual satisfaction is unimportant.

Yet, here we have porn being "blamed" for making men think that most women spontaneously want sex.

I think it's mostly that women's sexual needs were under valued in the past and that the effort to correct that error has made a mistake by implying that women's sexual needs are identical to men's rather than being equally important but different.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> It's interesting that I usually read that porn is "all about male pleasure" and makes it seem as though women's sexual satisfaction is unimportant.
> 
> Yet, here we have porn being "blamed" for making men think that most women spontaneously want sex.


I don't think your two points are in opposition. When porn is said to be "all about male pleasure," that includes more than just the depiction of men "getting off" in porn. It also includes _the depiction of female sexuality in a way that men desire to see it. _ 



Buddy400 said:


> I think it's mostly that women's sexual needs were under valued in the past and that the effort to correct that error has made a mistake by implying that women's sexual needs are identical to men's rather than being equally important but different.


Undervalued, yes, but also (and perhaps more significant) misunderstood by men.

For the record, I think that just as many women undervalue and misunderstand male sexuality.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm not sure what your point is. It's definitely focused on my experience so I think I get that part of your query, but it's largely about our relationship, of which my wife is an integral part.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How can you be really sure that that feeling 
(or lack of feelings) has got anything to do with how your wife is ‘performing’ in bed? And that it’s not a natural decrease of your own sexual libido? As we age, we need more and more to get aroused (and I don’t just mean to get it up). I read a lot about this and it seems some proportion of men unintentionally use this natural decline in their own sexual interest and project it on the wife. I am not saying this is what you are doing, I’m just asking how can one be really sure. The memories we have (the times when for example you used to be devoured once a month) also contain memories of how we used to be: it would seem unreasonable to assume that you are a constant in a relationship while the spouse is the only one changing variable.
This stage in your partnership is a very special one, where it’s not distorted by sexual lust: maybe one can find a way to learn to appreciate it for what it is?
Just a thought. I may be completely wrong.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

GettingIt_2 said:


> For the record, I think that just as many women undervalue and misunderstand male sexuality.


Undervalue I'd agree with; I'd say it's not that many women misunderstand male sexuality as much as they simply don't care about it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> Apologies for quoting the whole thing but it sounds eerie similar.



I don’t really notice that many similarities. If I remember correctly, your ex wife was disinterested in any sexual activity and always came up with excuses not to engage.
RMY’s wife seems perfectly willing and able but is not performing eagerly enough or exhibiting enough lust/desire. I think there’s a difference.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Please see my last post as part of my response to what you've added here. I don't mean for any of this to sound argumentative, and I truly appreciate your carefully considered input. Some of the obvious answers just don't seem to apply, so I'll try to explain why I feel that way.
> 
> I will also add the following in your text:


You need projects, hobbies, interests, friends. Don't make 'perfecting sex life' your main project. Do something which only you have control over the outcome.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> How can you be really sure that that feeling
> (or lack of feelings) has got anything to do with how your wife is ‘performing’ in bed? And that it’s not a natural decrease of your own sexual libido? As we age, we need more and more to get aroused (and I don’t just mean to get it up). I read a lot about this and it seems some proportion of men unintentionally use this natural decline in their own sexual interest and project it on the wife. I am not says no this is what you are doing, I’m just asking how can one be really sure. The memories we have (the times when for example you used to be devoured once a month) also contain memories of how we used to be: it would seem unreasonable to assume that you are a constant in a relationship while the spouse is the only one changing variable.
> This stage in your partnership is a very special one, where it’s not distorted by sexual lust: maybe one can find a way to learn to appreciate it or what it is?
> Just a thought. I may be completely wrong.
> ...


It’s very simple. The decline in libido of which you speak is a gradual thing that abates over time. This was shockingly sudden, as in overnight... literally overnight.

This also came very shortly after a full blood work up that showed my T to be well on the high side for a man my age.

And I’m certainly not claiming I’m the constant while she’s changing here; quite the opposite actually. She’s the one who’s been the long time LD and I’m the one who suddenly couldn’t take it anymore.

Again, the change was in me, and it was shockingly rapid, in no way the type of change associated with aging. Add to that the timing and the recent conversation, it became clear she really only desired me when ovulating, and now being menopausal, ovulating is a thing of the past. In essence, she told me she her desire for me would be forever flatlined.

I simply responded in kind. Not intentionally and not consciously, but that’s how it shook out. 

As far as appreciating a relationship not based on lust, we had been there for decades. Given the longstanding D mismatch, the relationship couldn’t have survived otherwise.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> You need projects, hobbies, interests, friends. Don't make 'perfecting sex life' your main project. Do something which only you have control over the outcome.


I have already posted about all the interests my wife and I have, including those we do independent of each other and those we share together. We have exceptionally well rounded lives and strike a very good balance between individuality and union.

Nobody’s looking to ‘perfect’ a sex life here. Just lamenting that it appears to be over, when it never really was much to speak of in the first place. Perfection? Even mediocrity would have been an improvement I would have welcomed.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> I don’t really notice that many similarities. If I remember correctly, your ex wife was disinterested in any sexual activity and always came up with excuses not to engage.
> RMY’s wife seems perfectly willing and able but is not performing eagerly enough or exhibiting enough lust/desire. I think there’s a difference.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Not a whole lot. S-wife started performing below par, slowly and steadily... Took a while to get there. But it's the emotional detachment that's the big issue. That's far tougher to fix if present.

The corollary to that is that it makes separation much easier 

It's not hormone related, incidentally. It's easy to blame hormones but I don't recall a hormone that compels men to do yardwork, paint a bathroom, or go to work every day. 

If sex is purely as the result of hormonal levels, then don't bother.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

This thread is very similar to how I feel. We have always had a HD/LD issue and it hasn't gotten better over time. In the past few months I just have not really felt like having sex at all.

A few days ago my wife asked that I have my T levels checked. I don't think they are off. I asked her last night if I wasn't having sex with her enough and she said I wasn't. So I asked, how would I know that? There was not really a reply to that.

To me it spoke to the core of our problems, there was never much over an acceptance of my advances, there was not an invitation be it overt or covert. It was either acceptance or refusal, never enthusiastic acceptance or desire.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It’s very simple. The decline in libido of which you speak is a gradual thing that abates over time. This was shockingly sudden, as in overnight... literally overnight.




I am not sure that's how it works. It can decline gradually but _the realisation_ itself may hit one all of a sudden. 

I also don't mean libido in the traditional sense of simply wanting sex. I am not sure what word to use. But for example when one is young (and HD), the desire and attraction for spouse is so high, that even the minimal sexual response from LD wife may not matter so much.

I am 37 and feel like even if my wife is unresponsive, I could still have a very good time with her sexually. I noticed and paid attention that I have less patience for this now than in the past.

If I notice that I need to put in more effort than usual to get her to have sex with me, I would rather not put in the effort and have to consciously and deliberately strain myself to do so. Intuitively, my first reaction is to sulk and wait till sex presents itself. And it's kind of lazy. And stupidly, it often works...Whereas in the past, just smelling or kissing her would get me crazy which in turn would resonate back in her: and it kind of bounces off each other.

I am not saying a sexually passive wife is ideal...but that our threshold for that passiveness seems to get lower and lower with age.

I am not sure this kind of thing can be measured simply in T levels as it's also an emotional development too, not just physical manifestation.

Anyway, it's just a theory. I am not sure it's helpful in practice. I am just thinking that there must be ways to find motivation to appreciate each other’s sexuality, even at a mature age.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Tasorundo said:


> This thread is very similar to how I feel. We have always had a HD/LD issue and it hasn't gotten better over time. In the past few months I just have not really felt like having sex at all.
> 
> A few days ago my wife asked that I have my T levels checked. I don't think they are off. I asked her last night if I wasn't having sex with her enough and she said I wasn't. So I asked, how would I know that? There was not really a reply to that.
> 
> To me it spoke to the core of our problems, there was never much over an acceptance of my advances, there was not an invitation be it overt or covert. It was either acceptance or refusal, never enthusiastic acceptance or desire.


I can't quite make out which one of you is supposed to be HD? Your wife said you haven't been having sex with her 'enough' so that points to your wife being HD?


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I am the HD one, but in year 24 I just don't find that it is worth the effort. I have not initiated much in a while so that was what she was commenting on.

My response was because, there was no indication that she was missing it, other than the low T comment.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> I am not sure that's how it works. It can decline gradually but _the realisation_ itself may hit one all of a sudden.
> I also don't mean libido in the traditional sense of simply wanting sex. I am not sure what word to use. But for example when one is young (and HD), the desire and attraction for spouse is so high, that even the minimal sexual response from LD wife may not matter so much.
> I am 37 and feel like even if my wife is unresponsive, I could still have a very good time with her sexually. I noticed and paid attention that I have less patience for this than in the past.
> If I notice that I need to put in more effort than usual to get her to have sex with me, I would rather not put in the effort and have to consciously and deliberately strain myself to do so. Intuitively, my first reaction is to sulk and wait till sex presents itself. And it's kind of lazy. And stupidly, it often works...Whereas in the past, just smelling or kissing her would get me crazy which in turn would resonate back in her: and it kind of bounces off each other.
> ...


Everything you mention still reflects a more gradual process. My experience was like flipping a switch. It’s no coincidence that the switch flipped immediately after the conversation in which I realized that her desire would be no more. I was always optimistic in the past, but with her desire being cycle driven an the cycle coming to an end, there remained no grounds for optimism. 

The realization that I had wasted so much hope on something so unlikely, and that the window was now just plain closed, and that by so persistently and faithfully putting all my eggs in this one basket, I had wasted any and all opportunities to have actually had something so important to me, made me feel quite foolish. But it was the finality of it all that was the catalyst, and that realization, which should have been evident all along, came all at once, but took forever to get there.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Everything you mention still reflects a more gradual process. My experience was like flipping a switch.


I know but I imagine it can just as easily be the same principle as a gradual accumulation of sand. At some point, the last grain of sand will cause the whole thing to collapse ('the realisation').
I don't claim to be correct. And I think I know exactly how you feel. I have been afraid of this moment myself all my life (among many other moments I have pre-imagined for myself, some of them came to pass, some of them haven't yet, and worse, some of them I have not prepared myself for at all yet as I don't know what the **** they could be). I know it will come one day. But the severity of it is temporary, I think you can reassure yourself of that. Your brain will get you out of it, unless one has a history of chronic depression; the brain does outsmart itself sometimes even if that sounds oxymoronic. or just moronic.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> I know but I imagine it can just as easily be the same principle as a gradual accumulation of sand. At some point, the last grain of sand will cause the whole thing to collapse ('the realisation').
> I don't claim to be correct. And I think I know exactly how you feel. I have been afraid of this moment myself all my life (among many other moments I have pre-imagined for myself, some of them came to pass, some of them haven't yet, and worse, some of them I have not prepared myself for at all yet as I don't know what the **** they could be). I know it will come one day. But the severity of it is temporary, I think you can reassure yourself of that. Your brain will get you out of it, unless one has a history of chronic depression; the brain does outsmart itself sometimes even if that sounds oxymoronic. or just moronic.


To some degree, it already has. But it’s like what people say about post-infidelity reconciled marriages. You’re still together and you still love each other, but there will always be a dark cloud in the room, and the love can never be the same as it was before.

I was definitely a victim of my belief in my ability to bring any situation to a successful resolution. This, quite frankly, is the one and only time in my life when my combination of optimism, enthusiasm, drive and intelligence has failed to bring about the result I wanted.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

john117 said:


> If sex is purely as the result of hormonal levels, then don't bother.


Sex isn't, but raw horniness is. 

I can feel it each and every month, that ebb and that flow. My hormones have everything to do with my spontaneous physical desire. Everything else is in my control. But no matter how much I want to, how much I try I cannot fake or reproduce the feeling and the behavior that is induced in me by those hormones.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Sex isn't, but raw horniness is.
> 
> I can feel it each and every month, that ebb and that flow. My hormones have everting to do with my spontaneous physical desire. Everything else is in my control. But no matter how much I want to, how much I try I cannot fake or reproduce the feeling and the behavior that is induced in me by those hormones.


Same here. I get you and I live it too. My H is much more passive than the way you described yours, so we are permanently(?) in the trenches of his waiting for me to initiate. The entire weight of our frequency rests on my shoulders, and there's nothing like having these dang hormones dictating your desire levels while simultaneously knowing somewhere deep in your brain that your H finds you disappointing. 

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

This is as natural as breathing to me, I never knew anyone was different than me. I'm not Sexually attracted to anyone who isn't interested in me. In Fact I usually need a emotional relationship to prove it. I'm told that means I'm demi sexual.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

It's not easy to maintain interest, drive and passion in a long term marriage. I don't know of very many couples that can maintain anywhere near the same fire and passion years down the road as they had in the beginning. You are not alone. It is very prevalent. Most just seem to accept the loss and find other ways to maintain the connection. Some are successful in this and others are not. It is for these reasons that I will never again re-marry. Being in a committed relationship but retaining my autonomy helps me keep things fresh enough.........at least for now. YMMV


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I was definitely a victim of my belief in my ability to bring any situation to a successful resolution. This, quite frankly, is the one and only time in my life when my combination of optimism, enthusiasm, drive and intelligence has failed to bring about the result I wanted.



I think that happens more frequently than we give it credit to...There is actually very little we have control over. We can only have (limited) control over our own responses, but even that is only possible to some degree.
Have to just go with the flow sometimes....which is against my personality also. But the older I get the more true it seems.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Tasorundo said:


> This thread is very similar to how I feel. We have always had a HD/LD issue and it hasn't gotten better over time. In the past few months I just have not really felt like having sex at all.
> 
> A few days ago my wife asked that I have my T levels checked. I don't think they are off. I asked her last night if I wasn't having sex with her enough and she said I wasn't. So I asked, how would I know that? There was not really a reply to that.
> 
> To me it spoke to the core of our problems, there was never much over an acceptance of my advances, there was not an invitation be it overt or covert. It was either acceptance or refusal, never enthusiastic acceptance or desire.


I think this relates to my point.

Female sexual desire is often driven my male desire. Wives are turned on by their husband being turned on by them (assuming a good marriage and that he has done a reasonable job of maintaining his appearance). 

However, there's a limit to how much rejection most men will accept.

So, too many rejections means no initiation by the man and, thus, no arousal for the woman.

Basically, she gets off by you desiring her but somehow expects you to keep doing it when there's no positive feedback. To make HER feel good.

As @LeananSidhe said on another thread, even when she didn't want sex with her husband, she wanted him to want to have sex with her.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> To some degree, it already has. But it’s like what people say about post-infidelity reconciled marriages. You’re still together and you still love each other, but there will always be a dark cloud in the room, and the love can never be the same as it was before.
> 
> I was definitely a victim of my belief in my ability to bring any situation to a successful resolution. This, quite frankly, is the one and only time in my life when my combination of optimism, enthusiasm, drive and intelligence has failed to bring about the result I wanted.


Your problem is that you wanted to believe that your wife desired sex with you for the same reason that you desired sex with her, because you had a spontaneous desire to have sex with her.

When you finally got confirmation that her sexual desire didn't work the same way yours did, this illusion fell apart.

I'm guessing that you believe that you want to have sex with your wife being because she is so desirable to you.

While that's no doubt a part of it, a significant part of your desire is due to hormones.

So is hers. 

It's just that you have the advantage of have a steady supply of testosterone (although gradually decreasing with age). Also, you started out with a lot more "sex-desiring" hormones and yours didn't fluctuate monthly.

So what you really expected was that she had as much testosterone as you.

That was bound to end badly.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I think this relates to my point.
> 
> Female sexual desire is often driven my male desire. Wives are turned on by their husband being turned on by them (assuming a good marriage and that he has done a reasonable job of maintaining his appearance).
> 
> ...


It takes two to tango . . . or to have a strong sex life even after decades together. 

For many couples, that means the man and the woman take on different roles, or "responsibilities," if you will. The man initiates as often as his drive dictates, and the woman is open to him getting her "warmed up and turned on" even if her hormones aren't doing the job that day. 

And on the days when the woman's drive dictates an advance, the man is open to it even if he's not int the mood. 

Rejections shouldn't be the norm, and when they occur, a good reason should be able to be given and be accepted without resentment and rancor. 

All this sounds simple enough, but wow can it be complicated to get to this point after years of hurt and fighting about sex. But it CAN be done.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GettingIt_2 said:


> All this sounds simple enough, but wow can it be complicated to get to this point after years of hurt and fighting about sex. But it CAN be done.


My preference is to have sex first, then hurt later..Unfortunately that's not how genders seem to have been designed to interact with each other.


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## memyselfandi (Jan 10, 2012)

After 30.5 years of marriage..things get dull after a bit. Same ol' same ol'

She expects you to be very romantic on Valentine's Day..and there's nothing wrong with that..but after 30.5 years of that..it tends to get rather boring..

The two of you need to spice things up a bit. How about date nights where you surprise her when she comes home from work (if she works)..and just be spontaneous with a simple bouquet of flowers and take her out to eat. Making dinner for her has become pretty usual for her and although very romantic..too much of something can become mundane.

Instead of concentrating on a few days a year; like Valentine's Day..your anniversary, etc., those are expected. The two of you need to do things unexpectedly like maybe go on road trips to places you both like on the weekends. What do the both of you enjoy together? Do those things unexpectedly and all of a sudden maybe the love you two have for each other will be renewed.

Maybe go to a Bed and Breakfast somewhere you both enjoy. Get one with a hot tub in it, along with one that will leave a breakfast basket outside your door. Take some walks along the streets of a small little city where this Bed and Breakfast is at and buy her a bouquet of flowers..should you both stop at one of those street side floral people. Hold her hand and talk about all the time you've been together..the good times mostly..and how you both remember them.

Being together as long as the two of you have..it's time to switch things up and spice up your life. Do all the things you used to enjoy earlier in your relationship that you'd both forgotten about..while just becoming lazy in your relationship..

It's still there..the love and the great sex. You just need to find it again!!


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> Your problem is that you wanted to believe that your wife desired sex with you for the same reason that you desired sex with her, because you had a spontaneous desire to have sex with her.
> 
> When you finally got confirmation that her sexual desire didn't work the same way yours did, this illusion fell apart.
> 
> ...


Not quite. I never had any illusions or expectation that it her desire “should work like mine.” 

I really don’t care how it works so long as it actually work. I can actually work with just about everything, as long as there’s some reasonable foundation from which too start. 

To further explain that I had no such expectations as you describe, I grew up fully believing the common narrative that only men get horny and women just give sex to get love. So, clearly I had zero reason to believe, or expect, her desire to be anything like mine.

Then, decades later, I come on TAM and learn that that narrative is anything but universal, that there are many women who not only desire, but even expect regular sex—and not only that, but they also look for some intensity and variety in their sex lives as well.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> > To some degree, it already has. But it’s like what people say about post-infidelity reconciled marriages. You’re still together and you still love each other, but there will always be a dark cloud in the room, and the love can never be the same as it was before.
> ...


I disagree with this somewhat. Even though hormones have a big role in desire, they are not the only factor in wanting and desiring someone. My own hormones contribute to me wanting sex, but it's special traits in only certain people that make me want THEM. It's not all or only hormone driven urge for sex that has made me want to connect sexually with my partners. 

I think OP has just learned that his wife only wanted him throughout the marriage on a hormonal level, not because HE PERSONALLY lit her fire.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

memyselfandi said:


> After 30.5 years of marriage..things get dull after a bit. Same ol' same ol'
> 
> She expects you to be very romantic on Valentine's Day..and there's nothing wrong with that..but after 30.5 years of that..it tends to get rather boring..
> 
> ...


I hate to sound contrary here, but you’ve obviously not seen the lions share of my posts over the last year. Flowers appear to her out of the blue, not just on V day, and I have a genuine knack for knowing when is the best time to do it. We travel frequently, even more so now that the kids are all gone. She prefers a romantic meal to eating out, and I regularly produce many totally gourmet meals. 

I wasn’t always good at this, but for decades I have lived a romantic life pretty much full time. We hold hands and I tell her how much I adore her constantly. We snuggle and spoon to sleep every night. Massages, cards, you name it, she gets it.

I’ve been pretty calm so far, but I absolutely bristle when you say I’ve become lazy in the relationship, not only have I not become lazy, I actually ramped up the effort and romance in recent years, intensifying even further as empty nest status approached. You would have known this had you paid any attention to my previous posts.

You say the great sex is still there, but how can it STILL be there when it was never there in the first place.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Livvie said:


> I disagree with this somewhat. Even though hormones have a big role in desire, they are not the only factor in wanting and desiring someone. My own hormones contribute to me wanting sex, but it's special traits in only certain people that make me want THEM. It's not all or only hormone driven urge for sex that has made me want to connect sexually with my partners.
> 
> I think OP has just learned that his wife only wanted him throughout the marriage on a hormonal level, not because HE PERSONALLY lit her fire.


I wouldn’t go quite that far. 

I think both elements are important, the hormones sand me. If it was purely hormonal, she could have ended up with anyone and she broke many hearts before I won her over. She was definitely waiting for the one who could excite her when her body was willing.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You need to do a very basic cost benefit analysis of your relationship. As things are, what is she getting out of it? You? 

There's too many unknowns as it is. But you're trying to reanimate an ideation, not the real thing. 

What is her definition of a healthy physical relationship? What are her assumptions? Expectations? What are those based on? 

5-Whys works remarkably well, much as my fellow practitioners would cringe at the thought of using 5-Whys to fix a relationship...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

john117 said:


> You need to do a very basic cost benefit analysis of your relationship. As things are, what is she getting out of it? You?
> 
> There's too many unknowns as it is. But you're trying to reanimate an ideation, not the real thing.
> 
> ...


I don’t see any unknowns. I believe I can answer all those questions with good accuracy. In fact, it’s the enhanced clarity of the picture that is the source of my current discontent.

The cost benefit analysis, at least from my point of view, is far less clear. But so long as I give absolute weight to my personal definition of integrity, which includes honoring my promises (vows) even when difficult, the rest of the calculations are pretty much irrelevant. 

The cost benefit analysis from her point of view is completely clear.


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I don’t see any unknowns. I believe I can answer all those questions with good accuracy. In fact, it’s the enhanced clarity of the picture that is the source of my current discontent.
> 
> The cost benefit analysis, at least from my point of view, is far less clear. But so long as I give absolute weight to my personal definition of integrity, which includes honoring my promises (vows) even when difficult, the rest of the calculations are pretty much irrelevant.
> 
> The cost benefit analysis from her point of view is completely clear.


So maybe you could go ahead and write out your cost benefit analysis, put your idea of hers below it, then start a discussion with it.

I don't think you're going to do it. You've been on this board a long time, you've seen all the standard advice, you've done the parts that fit within your concept of integrity, and now you're screwed. Well, not screwed. You're stuck between a rock and a hard place, but in your case the rock is a construct in your own mind.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Is it possible you are feeling especially down now that the kids left and there’s a bit of a void? And this exacerbates the depression about sex? Perhaps you expect it to be filled by your wife but it’s not the same?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

RMY,

You gave this list of absolutely great things you do to make your wife feel special and loved:

_Flowers appear to her out of the blue, not just on V day, and I have a genuine knack for knowing when is the best time to do it. We travel frequently, even more so now that the kids are all gone. She prefers a romantic meal to eating out, and I regularly produce many totally gourmet meals. 

I wasn’t always good at this, but for decades I have lived a romantic life pretty much full time. We hold hands and I tell her how much I adore her constantly. We snuggle and spoon to sleep every night. Massages, cards, you name it, she gets it._

I am merely curious, what does she do to make you feel special and keep the romance alive from her end? Gifts, massages, meals, words of affirmation for you?


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Not quite. I never had any illusions or expectation that it her desire “should work like mine.”
> 
> I really don’t care how it works so long as it actually work. I can actually work with just about everything, as long as there’s some reasonable foundation from which too start.
> 
> ...


My proposition (based on several sources) is that men are 75% spontaneous desire, 25% responsive while women are 25% spontaneous, 75% responsive.

In the past, responsive women were intense and enjoyed variety if their man was aggressive in the bedroom and the woman had reasons to give the man an opportunity to get her started. If the man was passive and waited for clear signs that the woman was aroused and expected her to introduce variety, it was pretty common for men and women to think that only men get horny and women just give sex to get love.

Then you find out that some women (25%?) desire and even expect regular sex with intensity and variety and, of course, you wish you were married to one of those. But, the odds are, only about a third of spontaneous desire men are going to be able to pair up with spontaneous desire women (at best).

I think, to some degree, you are expecting her to behave as if her desire was spontaneous and, when it isn't, you apply to her the feelings you would have in the same situation and have come to the conclusion that she doesn't desire you. If you feel that she doesn't desire you, then you lose your desire for her. But, it's mostly just hormones. 

The most damning thing you've ever said about your wife is that, when she was on hormones and her drive was raging, she said "Now I know what it's like to be you". I'd be really curious if she had an answer for why that experience had no effect on her behavior.

What I would expect out of her is for her love for you (and her recent experience of what its like to *be* you), that she would make more of an effort to allow herself to get "warmed up". But, since you see her need to get "warmed up" as proof of her lack of desire for you, it may be too late for this to work.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Rejections shouldn't be the norm, and when they occur, a good reason should be able to be given and be accepted without resentment and rancor.


I've never been so tempted to add a quote as my signature line.

I have no trouble accepting "good reason", I do have some trouble accepting rejection. In fact isn't that an oxymoron? Accepting Rejection, is never going to be a popular mantra, or a hashtag. You will never see a group of angry protesters carrying signs that say "Accept Rejection". But, what is it we should do with Rejection. Some people here will tell you that the answer to rejection should be persistence. Persist in making rejected offers. Some will say Reject the rejecter. On the other hand wouldn't the proper response to rejection be to respect the rejecter. Respect their rejection, and stop making offers. After all No means No. Remember the spreadsheet?

Personally I don't find "I don't know" to be good reason. Like many I don't initiate because I have long passed my rejection tolerance level. I packed up my balls and left the game.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Nucking Futs said:


> So maybe you could go ahead and write out your cost benefit analysis, put your idea of hers below it, then start a discussion with it.
> 
> I don't think you're going to do it. You've been on this board a long time, you've seen all the standard advice, you've done the parts that fit within your concept of integrity, and now you're screwed. Well, not screwed. You're stuck between a rock and a hard place, but in your case the rock is a construct in your own mind.


The cost benefit analysis here doesn't need to be written out. It's not that complicated; there's really not a lot of variables. I have already done so in my mind, which is why I'm still here. Even if I set aside my self imposed "rock," the bird in the hand, who is lovely, solid, responsible, and who has lately been putting forth great effort on my behalf, and most importantly who I could never bring myself to crush, is more attractive than the risk associated with venturing out into the great unknown late in life. Really, the odds of finding someone who has all those qualities AND is more sexually expressive, is very slim to nil,_ especially post-menopause_. 

But that's really all just mental wankery, as this was never intended to be a "should I stay or should I go?" thread. I opened the thread for assistance in getting a grip on why I experienced such an extreme anti-epiphany, and explore the implications of the why on whether or not it is truly a final/irreversible event.

I have appreciated all the advice and inputs, but I will reject the "standard advice" that was offered in spite directly countervailing non-standard aspects of my situation. Some observations have been quite helpful and I am using them to process my situation. Some advice, particularly the potential of me getting some IC to help pin this down, has also been very helpful.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> My proposition (based on several sources) is that men are 75% spontaneous desire, 25% responsive while women are 25% spontaneous, 75% responsive.
> 
> In the past, responsive women were intense and enjoyed variety if their man was aggressive in the bedroom and the woman had reasons to give the man an opportunity to get her started. If the man was passive and waited for clear signs that the woman was aroused and expected her to introduce variety, it was pretty common for men and women to think that only men get horny and women just give sex to get love.
> 
> ...


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> On the other side of the equation, when she is in the role of giver, most of the time, it feels completely mechanical rather than inspired. Maybe that shouldn't matter, but it does to me. When I'm in the role of giver, I'm really into it. I get more satisfaction out of pleasing here than I do when I'm taken care of. I guess that is the one area where you could say I am disappointed that her attitude doesn't more closely mirror mine--not the desire for sex as has already been suggested, but the joy that comes from giving.


I'm enthusiastic when giving oral (although it's not like I'm having an orgasm). Pleasing my wife pleases me.

When my wife is giving to me, it's not like I think she's having a great time physically, but I am convinced that she derives great pleasure from making me happy.

So, yeah, mechanical isn't good. Either she doesn't get much pleasure from pleasing you (which makes one wonder) or she wants you to know that she's putting in the effort while at the same time letting you know that it's not doing anything for her (which isn't good either).


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm enthusiastic when giving oral (although it's not like I'm having an orgasm). Pleasing my wife pleases me.
> 
> When my wife is giving to me, it's not like I think she's having a great time physically, but I am convinced that she derives great pleasure from making me happy.
> 
> So, yeah, mechanical isn't good. Either she doesn't get much pleasure from pleasing you (which makes one wonder) or she wants you to know that she's putting in the effort while at the same time letting you know that it's not doing anything for her (which isn't good either).


Upon reflection, I believe I have let my discontent get the better of me.

The HJs have seemed mechanical, but they take a while, so I think it's just hard to maintain enthusiasm for an extended period. Since she agreed to be more adventurous, there's only been one BJ. The fact that she was willing to do this at all given she has never been comfortable with that act, was wonderful; that she was willing to take it all the way, was spectacular as infrequent ventures down there in the past have been very short at the beginning of foreplay. 

What I was interpreting as "mechanical" there was probably just tentativeness. She is both not naturally comfortable with the act and self conscious in executing. Bad on me for lumping this in with the rest of my negative impressions. I was careful to express my pleasure during (without being silly or over the top) and afterward she looked up at me and said "so you liked that?" but it was more a statement than a question and I think detected some satisfaction on her part.

I just don't know for sure. I know the only way to pin this down is to talk to her about it, but she is naturally uncomfortable talking about sex. Sex is something you _do_, not talk about. I'm sure I've made this worse by having expressed discontent with our sex lives, so the topic is even more worrisome to her. I really have difficulty bringing up yet again, something that I know makes her uncomfortable, but I know not doing so is getting us nowhere.

And if that was so fun, (possibly for both of us), why haven't we done it again? That's also probably my fault as well. I'm very uncomfortable receiving. I don't even like getting Christmas presents. And I really don't like asking, especially when I have nothing to offer in return and since she doesn't enjoy receiving oral, that's how I feel here. I know she genuinely enjoys intercourse, but very infrequently, so I feel like I don't have much to give there either. So I haven't bee able to bring myself to say "that was great, can we do it again sometime?"

So now, if I were to self diagnose, and recommend a course of treatment, it would go like this:
1. Find a way to communicate without causing too much discomfort, and find ground truth from her point of view rather than just going off my perceptions, which may be way off target.
2. Get over my personal hangup about only being comfortable in the giver role or needing to "balance the books" sexually. Learn to ask, and to accept graciously in a way that helps her truly feel good about what she's doing for me. 

I may even learn she'd prefer giving the BJ to the HJ knowing I enjoy it more, and it wont' take as long. 

She has really cranked up her efforts outside the bedroom and has expressed a willingness to do more inside the bedroom. I need to get a better feel for what she's actually feeling (is it just marriage maintenance to keep me around, or is she actually enjoying it), and to learn to be happier with the giving on her terms.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> U
> 
> So now, if I were to self diagnose, and recommend a course of treatment, it would go like this:
> 1. Find a way to communicate without causing too much discomfort, and find ground truth from her point of view rather than just going off my perceptions, which may be way off target.
> ...


#1 is not recommended. Talking is ineffective and counter productive after a while. Assume the best.

#2 is highly recommended. I too am very uncomfortable receiving and much happier giving. What I realized eventually was that, in the process of protecting myself, I was actually depriving my wife of the great pleasure of doing something that made me very happy. Even now, being reassured that she enjoys it and knowing that she will always say yes (under any reasonable circumstance); I have a hard time asking. I spent 20+ years wishing she gave more blowjobs only to find that, once she was *clear* how important it was to me (a very difficult process!) she was more than happy to do it. I figure that's at least 1,000 blowjobs I missed out on just because I was averse to asking for anything for myself (childhood issues). I feel like an idiot.

Tell her that the blowjob was one of the best experiences you've had in your life. Ask her if you should ask for it in the future or if you should wait for her to initiate. Many women seem to think asking is rude. On the other hand my wife said "if you don't tell me you'd like a blowjob, how am I supposed to know you'd like one?".

Your wife has really cranked up her efforts because she, only now, realizes how important it is to you.

Make the most of it.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> I figure that's at least 1,000 blowjobs I missed out on just because I was averse to asking for anything for myself (childhood issues). I feel like an idiot.
> 
> Tell her that the blowjob was one of the best experiences you've had in your life. Ask her if you should ask for it in the future or if you should wait for her to initiate. Many women seem to think asking is rude. On the other hand my wife said "if you don't tell me you'd like a blowjob, how am I supposed to know you'd like one?".
> 
> ...


This resonates with me. Have been similar in the past. Hesitant to ASK for it. She should just want to do it right? If I ask for it, its not as special is it? Stupid me.

Turns out asking is ok. She might even be turned on by it. And for whatever reason asking for it can be hard. To actually say "suck my ****"? Seems like you are being a pushy ass. But turns out it actually turns her on some. That whole "women like to be wanted and ****ed" sometimes thing.

Now like Buddy said some women might freak if their husband said "suck my ****" even in a playful and seductive manner. 

If you dont ask and talk about it however all you'll have like Buddy is hundreds of missed BJs, or HJs or any kind of wonderful sexual experience with your wife.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

Middle of Everything said:


> Now like Buddy said some women might freak if their husband said "suck my ****" even in a playful and seductive manner.


Some??? Try "all." I have never heard of a woman who would stand for that! Few blowjobs will immediately equal zero blowjobs, probably forever.

But by all means try it out and let us know how that goes.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Notself said:


> Some??? Try "all." I have never heard of a woman who would stand for that! Few blowjobs will immediately equal zero blowjobs, probably forever.
> 
> But by all means try it out and let us know how that goes.


I am not saying to do this while sitting on the couch together or to just walk in the kitchen and say "suck my ****".

Im saying some women might enjoy this while in the bedroom while engaging in some sexy talk, making out etc. 
My wife has asked me to. Seductively asked me "what do you want?" "say it". 

Context is important here. :grin2:


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

Middle of Everything said:


> I am not saying to do this while sitting on the couch together or to just walk in the kitchen and say "suck my ****".
> 
> Im saying some women might enjoy this while in the bedroom while engaging in some sexy talk, making out etc.
> My wife has asked me to. Seductively asked me "what do you want?" "say it".
> ...


I'm still pretty skeptical, but definitely good for you on evidently finding a unicorn.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Notself said:


> Some??? Try "all." I have never heard of a woman who would stand for that! Few blowjobs will immediately equal zero blowjobs, probably forever.
> 
> But by all means try it out and let us know how that goes.


There's a fine line here. 

"Asking" is kind of wimpy. 

"May I have a blowjob?" doesn't work (or, at least, it shouldn't).

"I want you to blow me" is better, less passive. 

"Suck my ****" will work (and be kind of hot) in the right circumstances.

Of course, we're talking about a wife here who presumably loves you.

My wife will say "scratch my back" and I do. It's not like she's abusing me or anything.

I find this somewhat hard to believe myself and it goes against everything I learned or assumed growing up.

But I'm happier and my wife is a LOT happier. Weird.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Notself said:


> Middle of Everything said:
> 
> 
> > Now like Buddy said some women might freak if their husband said "suck my ****" even in a playful and seductive manner.
> ...


I've been with plenty of women (inclusive of my wife and ex-wife) who have been very obliging on being told to do exactly that and much more.

In my experience being very direct about my sexual wants and desires, has ensured my sexual wants and desires have been satiated.



Middle of Everything said:


> I am not saying to do this while sitting on the couch together or to just walk in the kitchen and say "suck my ****".


That has worked as well.



Middle of Everything said:


> Im saying some women might enjoy this while in the bedroom while engaging in some sexy talk, making out etc.
> My wife has asked me to. Seductively asked me "what do you want?" "say it".


Yep saying it is a great approach, owning your desire and expressing it can be very sexy.



Notself said:


> I'm still pretty skeptical, but definitely good for you on evidently finding a unicorn.


This isn't unicorn stuff, there are lots of women who like men that own their sexual wants and have the confidence to say so.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Notself said:


> Some??? Try "all." I have never heard of a woman who would stand for that! Few blowjobs will immediately equal zero blowjobs, probably forever.
> 
> But by all means try it out and let us know how that goes.


I like being told what to do. It turns me on - a lot. But, as Buddy said, it would be in the context of feeling very safe and secure.

Ages ago, we had a male poster here who once wrote that he told his wife to get on her knees. I thought - oh my! 

In my marriage, the two of us never came anywhere close to interaction like that.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Personal said:


> I've been with plenty of women (inclusive of my wife and ex-wife) who have been very obliging on being told to do exactly that and much more.
> 
> In my experience being very direct about my sexual wants and desires, has ensured my sexual wants and desires have been satiated.
> 
> ...


Sadly it takes some of us longer to realize its not a bad thing to say what we want sexually AND shocker our wives/SO actually LIKE it. :surprise:

Now your mileage may vary but Ive slowly (stupidly slowly?) began to realize Personal is pretty damn spot on here. 

I dont think it was this thread, maybe another?, where being a nice guy doesnt mean passive and weak. Same here. Too many of us guys have for whatever reason think that being "nice" and "good" in the bedroom means weak and passive bull****. No. You can be honest as hell and tell your wife that you SO want her to suck your **** right now. Thats not being an ass. Its being honest. active. Now not trying to make sure she gets off? Yeah. *******. But she doesnt get off scott free. She should WANT to get you off in the best way possible too.


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## Uselessmale (May 20, 2017)

My feelings exactly. Emotional account is closed she bankrupted me. Started counseling 6 weeks ago and there is no ember left to even try to start another flame


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Unicorn here. "Suck my **** " is what I want, like and need to hear from my husband. 

Maybe we unicorns have these opinions in common:

There is no bigger turn off than a man who drops hints and then sits around waiting for the woman to make the move. 

There is no bigger turn off than a man who watches the woman to be (in his estimation) in the "right" mood to accept his advances. 

There in no bigger turn off than a man who puts his own sexual needs on the back burner, and then gets pissy and resentful from lack of sex, and blames the woman for not reading his mind or having the desire and the urge to be the initiator. 

If my husband is so afraid I'll say no, or if he's so afraid of inconveniencing me or or making me do something I don't "feel like" doing at the moment . . . . then he's going to get a lot fewer blow jobs than he could have, with a lot less enthusiasm. 

I do not do hints, I don't initiate blow jobs unless I'm in the random and rare mood (and even then I don't like initiating them), and I don't look at the calendar and keep track of how long it's been since the last blow job I gave. 

But I DO get down on my knees whenever he tells me to. And those blow jobs are HIGHLY enjoyable to me--far more so than the ones I initiate because I happen to be in the mood to suck it 

To this unicorn, there is nothing hotter than a dominant lover. Am I really that unusual? Maybe only in the fact that I'm willing to admit I find sexual objectification from my (loving and highly deserving husband) desirable. My hormones do a poor job of getting me as horny as he can with his words and his expectation that I will obey.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Well to be honest. I did recently ask for oral sex. I believe what she said was "you sure have high expectations". 

- Expect Rejections


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> Well to be honest. I did recently ask for oral sex. I believe what she said was "you sure have high expectations".
> 
> - Expect Rejections


Didnt mean to make you feel bad Mr Nail. I realize its not so simple for all here. Learning my wife has reactive/responsive desire and likes to be "taken" frequently is a lesson I had to learn. I realize that doesnt apply for all here. There are likely many men here if they tried to just take their wife into the bedroom and bend her over would be met with fists upside their heads instead of moaning. Same with "suck my ****". Laughter for some here as opposed to fellatio.

I truly dont know what the answer is there. I know many have tried communicating with their SOs till they are blue in the face. If they wont be honest in their communication and open up, not much can happen as far as progress.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Middle of Everything said:


> Didnt mean to make you feel bad Mr Nail. I realize its not so simple for all here. Learning my wife has reactive/responsive desire and likes to be "taken" frequently is a lesson I had to learn. I realize that doesnt apply for all here. There are likely many men here if they tried to just take their wife into the bedroom and bend her over would be met with fists upside their heads instead of moaning. Same with "suck my ****". Laughter for some here as opposed to fellatio.
> 
> I truly dont know what the answer is there. I know many have tried communicating with their SOs till they are blue in the face. If they wont be honest in their communication and open up, not much can happen as far as progress.


Yes, the sort of dynamic where a wife will accept sexual dominance and not exercise her right of refusal lightly isn't one that is usually arrived at without some communication--most particularly if it's a huge departure from the usual dynamic.

And it's not one that just happens over night, and without perseverance and commitment. Old habits die hard--even ones we know make us unhappy. 

Still, it's a place to start a conversation.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> The HJs have seemed mechanical, but they take a while, so I think it's just hard to maintain enthusiasm for an extended period. Since she agreed to be more adventurous, there's only been one BJ. The fact that she was willing to do this at all given she has never been comfortable with that act, was wonderful; that she was willing to take it all the way, was spectacular as infrequent ventures down there in the past have been very short at the beginning of foreplay.
> 
> What I was interpreting as "mechanical" there was probably just tentativeness. She is both not naturally comfortable with the act and self conscious in executing. Bad on me for lumping this in with the rest of my negative impressions. I was careful to express my pleasure during (without being silly or over the top) and afterward she looked up at me and said "so you liked that?" but it was more a statement than a question and I think detected some satisfaction on her part.
> 
> ...


I never really learned to give a HJ. In my observation, most people went through phases. They first started making out, then moved to heavy petting, then HJ's and/or oral, then sex. When I was in my teens and 20's I saw HJ's as something women gave to their partner in lieu of sex because they weren't ready yet for sex. I didn't want to do anything in lieu of sex, I wanted sex. So, I had to learn to give HJ's as a full grown adult. 

Trust me, the level of arousal and pleasure demonstrated by DH during and after made a HUGE difference in my willingness to practice and my enjoyment of practicing. Without DH showing me through sound and motion that he was really turned on and into it, that I was doing a good job, I got too in my head. I wondered what I was doing wrong, what I was not doing right, if he was even enjoying it or humoring me, yadda yadda. 




Notself said:


> Some??? Try "all." I have never heard of a woman who would stand for that! Few blowjobs will immediately equal zero blowjobs, probably forever.
> 
> But by all means try it out and let us know how that goes.


It's hot as Hell when a man I am into flat out says "Suck my ****." I take that as a compliment. It's a testament to my level of attractiveness and skill. Not to mention, it's fairly awesome to take a man into my mouth and turn him into a quivering mass of arousal and pleasure. Such a powerful feeling!



Middle of Everything said:


> I am not saying to do this while sitting on the couch together or to just walk in the kitchen and say "suck my ****".


I highly suggest saying it in the kitchen and on the couch. It's worked out very well in my experience. >


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## Townes (Jan 31, 2018)

It sounds like 30 years later you're still intellectualizing the problem. Doesn't sound like that's worked out too well for you. I truly don't understand how men allow these dynamics to form over a period of years. Her having sex with you is no more optional in your marriage than you being nice to her. What you've accepted for your life is heartbreaking. Turn off npr for an hour and go bang your wife. Npr fan btw.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Unicorn here. "Suck my **** " is what I want, like and need to hear from my husband.
> 
> Maybe we unicorns have these opinions in common:
> 
> ...


I'm not sure about Unicorn status, as I really have no idea how common or uncommon women with your attitude may be. 

My wife certainly likes for me to lead. But at the same time, not too often and when I do, it can't come across as too demanding. 

You prevent the problem in blue above by your behavior highlighted in red above. That's probably where the Unicorn status comes in. Most men are forced into that blue behavior by years of encountering the opposite of the red behavior.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> It's hot as Hell when a man I am into flat out says "Suck my ****." I take that as a compliment. It's a testament to my level of attractiveness and skill. Not to mention, it's fairly awesome to take a man into my mouth and turn him into a quivering mass of arousal and pleasure. Such a powerful feeling!
> 
> I highly suggest saying it in the kitchen and on the couch. It's worked out very well in my experience. >


Yes, same with me. Very much so. I love hearing him say, "Suck my ****"..."Lick my ****"...it automatically makes me cream my panties just hearing him say these things to me, always has...it's like a pavlovian conditioning response with me...but I am a woman who gets off on giving a man a really good blowjob...I typically also orgasm once or twice while giving him a bj, either from him simultaneously stimulating me or I am stimulating myself. So it's Win/Win/Win for him and me both.

He is actually "giving" to me by letting me give him a bj. I get pleasure from giving just because I am a giving type person, I get pleasure seeing/hearing/feeling his pleasure and orgasm in my mouth, I orgasm once or twice while giving him bj. Win/Win/Win for me. And him.

Something about hearing a man say that to me - "Suck my ****" and knowing he loves the way I do it and my knowing I can make him lose his mind - really gets my motor humming. Makes me so wet...

My enjoying hearing him say it may have something to do with my also being very turned on by all the audible sounds of sex, his voice telling me what he wants, likes, and needs, his breathing, his moans, his orgasm, the friction and slurping and s***ing sounds - all of the things I hear. Very much a turn on to me, so it makes sense his command, "..." would too.

I am also very open in communicating what I want and need sexually, whether we are in a place and time to make it happen right then and there or not. I will plant the seed in his mind and remind him of it throughout the day/evening until we get a chance to make it happen.

I don't think this is that rare with women.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I'm not sure about Unicorn status, as I really have no idea how common or uncommon women with your attitude may be.
> 
> My wife certainly likes for me to lead. But at the same time, not too often and when I do, it can't come across as too demanding.


This is going to take me a while (I'm a slow typist) but, what the heck, I'm not doing anything all that important and your situation has the possibility for a huge upside.

First, I'd guess that 50% or woman are turned on by the thought of a guy saying "suck my ****".

However, in order for this to actually happen the women would (as @minimalME noted above) would have to have a lot of trust in her husband and their relationship.

The idea that a woman would enjoy this is no weirder than the idea of running to the point of exhaustion can result in a wonderful feeling called a "runner's high". But most people are willing to accept the fact that a "runner's high" exists and, therefore, might be willing to give it a try.

In today's society the idea that a husband telling his wife to give him a blow job may result in his wife greatly enjoying it do wonderful things for her sex life is a *much* harder sell. 

A man asking for a blowjob is seen as a man that cares only about his own needs and doesn't care about the woman's happiness (in other words, a jerk). It's all supposed to be about a woman pleasure (and, indeed, there usually wasn't enough attention paid to this), women shouldn't be objectified, women should never engage in sex acts unless they truly want to, etc.

So, for the most part, decent guys don't demand blowjobs and decent women think that they shouldn't be asked and should feel free to be insulted and refused. This leads to only jerks asking for blowjobs (and, as a result, sometimes getting them) while the guys who truly care about their woman's happiness don't ask and don't receive. This sort of result often leads guys to believe that "chick dig jerks" and can build a good deal of resentment. 

The moral of the story isn't that you should go around asking women for blowjobs or that you can ignore your wife's needs and insist on her meeting yours. But... in a loving, trusting, good marriage telling your wife that you want a blowjob might just be the best thing that ever happened to your sex life (and hers). Now that she's shown that she's willing to make an effort to improve things, this is the time that she's probably her most willing to step outside her comfort zone. And, if you've just gotten the first blowjob in years (and to completion to boot) I don't think it's the time to question her motivation or enthusiasm (she was probably nervous as heck wondering if she still knew how to do it right).

The question is "how to get there from here".

You can tell her how that the blowjob was the best thing you've experienced in years, that you're still basking in the afterglow and you'd like to repeat it again soon.

Or, you could make a deal with her that she'll do whatever you want sexually for a certain time period (with a safe word that let's her opt out if she must). You may want to follow that up by giving her equal time (for whatever she chooses, not just sex).

You've got all the elements in place. You're a great guy; you love your wife; she loves you; you've got an excellent marriage in every other regard; you're new empty-nesters. I think that there's an excellent chance you're both going to be walking around soon smiling all the time

Take a chance. Give it a try.

Don't avoid losing by refusing to play


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> This is going to take me a while (I'm a slow typist) but, what the heck, I'm not doing anything all that important and your situation has the possibility for a huge upside.
> 
> First, I'd guess that 50% or woman are turned on by the thought of a guy saying "suck my ****".
> 
> ...


Thanks for taking the time to spell all that out! We've actually agreed to do much of that--just haven't followed through, mostly due, I believe, to my concerns. My wife is completely comfortable with me, but saying "suck my ****" would definitely not be received well, and would undoubtedly serve only to erode that trust. Telling her how much I appreciated her previous effort, and how much I enjoyed it, might go over well. 

As for giving her equal time, that's already well covered. Regular date nights, gourmet home prepared meals, romantic travel, her choice of movies, even opera.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It’s very simple. The decline in libido of which you speak is a gradual thing that abates over time. This was shockingly sudden, as in overnight... literally overnight.
> 
> Again, the change was in me, and it was shockingly rapid, in no way the type of change associated with aging. Add to that the timing and the recent conversation, it became clear she really only desired me when ovulating, and now being menopausal, ovulating is a thing of the past. In essence, she told me she her desire for me would be forever flatlined.


 @rockyMountainYeti for HD people, our sexuality and our ability to express our sexuality with a trusted partner is very much a part of who we are as a person.

I wonder if you have been in full blown "grieving" mode over your marital sex life for a long time, with all the stages that entails: denial, anger bargaining, depression and acceptance. I wonder if you have been grieving that part of you that is lost (your sexuality) as long as you stay with your wife.

(I think) I can see glimpses of your being in each stage of grief from reading your posts over a period of time. (Except for anger, I have not seen anger, but I admittedly have not read every single post you have ever made on TAM about your marital sex life. But I have seen what appears to be the other 4 stages)

I wonder if that sudden light switch moment you described happened with your final stage of acceptance when she told you her desire for you would be forever flat lined from now on. At that very moment, final acceptance kicked in.

I am guessing you probably know this already, but it is perfectly normal to grieve parts of our SELVES that we lose, including our sexuality and the inability to express our sexuality for whatever reason, including because of our chosen partner's inability to share it with us. 

I am sorry for what you are going through.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

WildMustang said:


> @rockyMountainYeti for HD people, our sexuality and our ability to express our sexuality with a trusted partner is very much a part of who we are as a person.
> 
> I wonder if you have been in full blown "grieving" mode over your marital sex life for a long time, with all the stages that entails: denial, anger bargaining, depression and acceptance. I wonder if you have been grieving that part of you that is lost (your sexuality) as long as you stay with your wife.
> 
> ...


Thanks,

FTR, there has been anger. I’m actually surprised it didn’t come out in my posts.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Thanks,
> 
> FTR, there has been anger. I’m actually surprised it didn’t come out in my posts.


Do you believe there is a possibility you have been going through the stages of grief over your marital sex life for awhile now?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

WildMustang said:


> Do you believe there is a possibility you have been going through the stages of grief over your marital sex life for awhile now?


Can’t say offhand. It’s an interesting theory I’ll have to reflect on. Seems plausible.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

@rockyMountainYeti 

I apologize if this has already been asked or considered, but would your wife and you be willing to go to sex therapy? I know you said your wife is not comfortable talking about sex with you as she believes sex is something you do, not something you talk about, but would she (and you) be willing to bring a professional sex therapist into the mix? Wondering if it would help if she heard a sex therapist say, "Actually, sex *IS * something you both talk about and do".


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

WildMustang said:


> @rockyMountainYeti
> 
> I apologize if this has already been asked or considered, but would your wife and you be willing to go to sex therapy? I know you said your wife is not comfortable talking about sex with you as she believes sex is something you do, not something you talk about, but would she (and you) be willing to bring a professional sex therapist into the mix? Wondering if it would help if she heard a sex therapist say, "Actually, sex *IS * something you both talk about and do".


She might be open to the idea. She has mentioned it although rather half-heartedly. She’s generally been happy with our sex life.

I’d be okay with it if I thought there was a realistic chance of it yielding results. I’ve reached a point in my life when my desire for improvement is bigger than my ego.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Rocky, just a thought exercise here. The answer can just stay with you if it's too private. 

If one of your kids were in your very situation, and came to you for advice, after having already tried everything you have, what would you say? What advice would you give?


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> _"There is no bigger turn off than a man who watches the woman to be (in his estimation) in the "right" mood to accept his advances." _
> 
> 
> _"But I DO get down on my knees whenever he tells me to. And those blow jobs are HIGHLY enjoyable to me--far more so than the ones I initiate because I happen to be in the mood to suck it" _
> ...


Actually, I don't moderate my behavior in any way to "be" in a any sort of mood for him. The ONLY thing I have changed is to give up consent when it comes to sex. For his part, it's up to him decide when and how to approach me when he's in the mood for sex. I've been blazingly mad at him a few times when he's decided to **** me. Brave man, my husband, but some of the best sex *I've* had. There have been disasters, too . . . and we work through them and move on. We trust one another, so we don't see set backs as one of our "faults." We BOTH take responsibility for the risks and rewards of our sexual dynamic. 

For us, that was a better option than the "dance" we had been in for YEARS that had resulted in lower frequency than we both wanted and needed. We took a hard look at how our sex drives were different and realized that 1) my having to "be" a certain way in order for him to feel it was "permissible" to initiate sex was a huge part of the problem. 2) my thinking that I had to "feel like it" sexually when he initiated was a huge part of the problem. 

Both of those things was the result of conditioning that we've worked to "undo" in ourselves. If sex isn't happening, it's because one of us it's adhering to what we agreed to. And since he's much, much bigger and stronger than me . . . . well, I guess it sometimes comes down to how much energy he's willing to put into the first two minutes, lol.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Thanks for taking the time to spell all that out! We've actually agreed to do much of that--*just haven't followed through, mostly due, I believe, to my concerns.* My wife is completely comfortable with me, but saying "suck my ****" would definitely not be received well, and would undoubtedly serve only to erode that trust. Telling her how much I appreciated her previous effort, and how much I enjoyed it, might go over well.


I do think that you have to take responsibility for much of the dynamic you find yourself in. At least you can see and admit your part in it, and that is key to finding a path to changing your behavior. Slaying the "inner nice guy" when it comes to sex in long-term, committed marriages is perhaps the #1 hurdle for many (most?) husbands. I don't think it "feels good" or "feels right" to some men--especially if another precedent has already taken hold in the marriage. 

Women have their own hurdles, too--giving up control over our bodies, for example, is a big one. 

For both men and women, working on such fundamental reconditioning takes effort and, more than anything, TRUST in our partners. I do think that you and your wife have the foundation of trust required to do this sort of work. The only question is: will she take this journey with you? 



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> As for giving her equal time, that's already well covered. Regular date nights, gourmet home prepared meals, romantic travel, her choice of movies, even opera.


These things are important . . . but are they important to HER in terms of accepting you as the leader and keeper of intimacy in your marriage? If the answer is "yes," then I would say: They might be important to _her_ happiness and sense contentment in the marriage, but they don't seem to be providing what the MARRIAGE needs. 

If you don't lead in this matter, either you will have to seek a path to peace with the way things are, or you will continue your slide into emotional disconnectedness in your marriage. That, as you have seen here on TAM, is not a path with a happy ending.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

Yeti,

I do hope you find peace. You are a good man. I wish I could add more, but my comments and opinions are not conductive to this particular discussion.

Please be well.


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## Don't Panic (Apr 2, 2017)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I do think that you have to take responsibility for much of the dynamic you find yourself in. At least you can see and admit your part in it, and that is key to finding a path to changing your behavior. Slaying the "inner nice guy" when it comes to sex in long-term, committed marriages is perhaps the #1 hurdle for many (most?) husbands. I don't think it "feels good" or "feels right" to some men--especially if another precedent has already taken hold in the marriage.
> 
> Women have their own hurdles, too--giving up control over our bodies, for example, is a big one.
> 
> ...


I *really* enjoy reading your posts GettingIt, you're very honest & insightful...thank you for sharing dynamics of your marriage.


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## dubsey (Feb 21, 2013)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Unicorn here. "Suck my **** " is what I want, like and need to hear from my husband.
> 
> blah blah blah, a whole bunch of other stuff that's super relevant but cut out to save space...
> 
> To this unicorn, there is nothing hotter than a dominant lover. Am I really that unusual? Maybe only in the fact that I'm willing to admit I find sexual objectification from my (loving and highly deserving husband) desirable. My hormones do a poor job of getting me as horny as he can with his words and his expectation that I will obey.


I think it's less unusual than most guys actually are aware. Wife v2.0 (divorced, back together) is everything you had in the original post. She wasn't at all like that before we divorced, but mostly because she just didn't know because I was too nice and never actually tried to do so. 

I asked what changed "nothing, just didn't know I liked it". When I asked why she likes it, I got "I don't know, but are you about to complain about it? If you like getting your **** sucked, I'd just keep ****ing doing it"

Haven't discussed it since, but I know she's absurdly more into things if I'm completely in charge rather than letting her decide what's going on - like to the point that she has had an orgasm from giving oral...


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

RMY, I have been thinking about what you said in an earlier post about your not being comfortable "receiving", even to the point if not being comfortable "receiving Christmas gifts"

I wonder if this uncomfortableness in receiving is because you feel you don't "deserve" to receive good things, such as good sex with your wife, either on a subconscious level or on a conscious level, or both, and so you unintentionally have allowed that feeling to manifest in your marital sex life.

I wonder if perhaps you could change that opinion (that you don't deserve to receive good things, Christmas gifts, good sex, etc) that you could change the sexual dynamic in your marriage.

I do not know if this is the case, of course, but I would explore it in individual counseling and/or sex therapy if you choose to get professional help.

That you don't feel comfortable "receiving" really stuck out to me.

Btw, there is no shame in seeking professional help to improve your marriage. Obviously, you have given it your best efforts.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

RMY, to further expand in that line of thought, I wonder if it has become a self fulfilling prophesy for you, that you feel you don't deserve to "receive" (good sex) and therefore you don't. It becomes a feedback loop confirming your belief (that you don't deserve to "receive").

Please disregard if I am way off base here, as I may very well be.


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## Notself (Aug 25, 2017)

Question: Are *all* the women here with happy marriages sexually submissive? 

My mind is completely blown (even if other parts of me aren't).


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> She might be open to the idea. She has mentioned it although rather half-heartedly. She’s generally been happy with our sex life.
> 
> I’d be okay with it if I thought there was a realistic chance of it yielding results. I’ve reached a point in my life when my desire for improvement is bigger than my ego.


Man, if she has mentioned sex therapy, even if half-heartedly, I would take that bull by the horns and run with it!

Yes, she is happy with your sex life, because It's on her terms. Of course she is happy with it.

But you aren't! And that's the point.

You never know if it could yield results unless and until you try it.

Are you sure your desire for improvement is bigger than your ego?

Honest question. Not meant in a negative way.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Notself said:


> Question: Are *all* the women here with happy marriages sexually submissive?
> 
> My mind is completely blown (even if other parts of me aren't).


I don't think that's the case. I do think a sexually submissive woman paired up with a man who is not dominant or who hesitates to be dominant isn't going to see her sexual potential realized by her partner. I don't know how common that mis-match pattern is, but I will say I at least suspect in in many of the threads I've seen here. 

It's not just a matter of the husband being dominant, either. Women have to understand themselves and know what makes them "tick" sexually, and be willing to accept that about themselves, and share that knowledge with their husbands. Again: TRUST. And sadly, that is often the missing element. 

Some women would rather go without sex than admit how deeply sexually submissive they are to themselves, let alone to their husbands. Not all men find that sort of submission attractive in a sex partner.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Notself said:


> Question: Are *all* the women here with happy marriages sexually submissive?
> 
> My mind is completely blown (even if other parts of me aren't).


I'm happily married and not sexually submissive.  

I just think my dynamic is generally *not* what this forum is looking for. I rarely see my husband's "type" represented here so I rarely speak about what works for us but he, in general, doesn't like submissive women.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

@Rocky Mountain Yeti, we have butted heads more than once on several different topics. We have traded insults and generally gotten into it. But, I truly feel for you. I hope you are able to resolve things to your satisfaction and not just come to accept things for the way they area. Good luck!


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

FrenchFry said:


> I'm happily married and not sexually submissive.
> 
> I just think my dynamic is generally *not* what this forum is looking for. I rarely see my husband's "type" represented here so I rarely speak about what works for us but he, in general, doesn't like submissive women.


Just out of curiosity: does your husband not like sexually submissive women, or women who are submissive in a more general sense?

I think women (and men) can be sexually submissive, but not at all submissive in life outside the bedroom. For some individuals, the need to be highly dominant in a career or family role drives the urge to "lay down that load" in the bedroom. 

I'm sexually submissive (actually more of a "bottom," but I'm not going to split kink hairs here lol) and am highly attracted to dominance in general . . . but perfectly capable of and good at leading if there is a need, or if there is a "dominance void." 

I just find that I don't feel nearly as sexual when I'm in leadership mode--whether it be by necessity or choice.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Notself said:


> Question: Are *all* the women here with happy marriages sexually submissive?
> 
> My mind is completely blown (even if other parts of me aren't).


I think there's a lot more submissive in women's sex drives than most men or women expect.

However, this doesn't mean that every woman wants to be bound and gagged.

A large portion of many women's sex drives revolves around being highly desired by their man.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

WildMustang said:


> RMY, I have been thinking about what you said in an earlier post about your not being comfortable "receiving", even to the point if not being comfortable "receiving Christmas gifts"
> 
> I wonder if this uncomfortableness in receiving is because you feel you don't "deserve" to receive good things, such as good sex with your wife, either on a subconscious level or on a conscious level, or both, and so you unintentionally have allowed that feeling to manifest in your marital sex life.
> 
> ...


I am very uncomfortable receiving things as well, but it's not because I believe I don't deserve them.

It's because I got through childhood by never letting people know they were getting to me. 

I avoided getting hurt by never making myself vulnerable.

If you don't ask for something; then the person you ask can't say "no".

If you don't let people know that you want something; it can't turn you down.

If you give to others but don't take; you're never in their debt and they don't have the power over you to do you damage.

Well... that and genes. 

It takes a lot of effort and will to get past that crap and allow yourself to be vulnerable.

But it's worth it.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I don't think that's the case. I do think a sexually submissive woman paired up with a man who is not dominant or who hesitates to be dominant isn't going to see her sexual potential realized by her partner. I don't know how common that mis-match pattern is, but I will say I at least suspect in in many of the threads I've seen here.
> 
> It's not just a matter of the husband being dominant, either. *Women have to understand themselves and know what makes them "tick" sexually, and be willing to accept that about themselves, and share that knowledge with their husbands*. Again: TRUST. And sadly, that is often the missing element.
> 
> Some women would rather go without sex than admit how deeply sexually submissive they are to themselves, let alone to their husbands. Not all men find that sort of submission attractive in a sex partner.


I think it's mostly the bolded. The husband being dominant by itself is not going to change anything, which is why the advice that the husband "man up" rarely does the trick on it's own.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I am very uncomfortable receiving things as well, but it's not because I believe I don't deserve them.
> 
> It's because I got through childhood by never letting people know they were getting to me.
> 
> ...


Great post!


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Ynot said:


> @Rocky Mountain Yeti, we have butted heads more than once on several different topics. We have traded insults and generally gotten into it. But, I truly feel for you. I hope you are able to resolve things to your satisfaction and not just come to accept things for the way they area. Good luck!


I would also add that we've found common ground on a few topics as well. It's always nice when people can have differences and not let that get in the way of other agreements.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> I'm happily married and not sexually submissive.
> 
> I just think my dynamic is generally *not* what this forum is looking for. I rarely see my husband's "type" represented here so I rarely speak about what works for us but he, in general, doesn't like submissive women.


But, it's important to get some "norms" in here so that everyone doesn't get the wrong idea :smile2:

And I think it's important to note that 'sexually submissive" is not the same as "submissive".

If I tell my wife "clean the kitchen", it's not going to go well.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Satya said:


> Rocky, just a thought exercise here. The answer can just stay with you if it's too private.
> 
> If one of your kids were in your very situation, and came to you for advice, after having already tried everything you have, what would you say? What advice would you give?


 @Satya,
That's a great way of thinking about it.

I know what I'd say if they were encountering something like this early in a relationship, but I do believe 30+ years changes the calculus a bit. So if I was 80 and junior was 50 what would I say? 

I'm really not sure. Ask me when I'm 80! 

(not really trying to be facetious here--it really is a good thought exercise and I will put some more thought into it)


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Notself said:


> Question: Are *all* the women here with happy marriages sexually submissive?
> 
> My mind is completely blown (even if other parts of me aren't).


As a way of life, I need a man who's strong - someone who has an opinion and who'll make decisions. I'm attracted to men who lead - it maintains my respect and my willingness to submit.

In terms of sex, variety is nice. Bossy is sexy to me, and I'd want that most of the time, but I'd have absolutely no problem tying him up, blindfolding him and having my way.

My ex-husband was passive, and my marriage was sexless. Above is the new dynamic I look for.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

WildMustang said:


> RMY, I have been thinking about what you said in an earlier post about your not being comfortable "receiving", even to the point if not being comfortable "receiving Christmas gifts"
> 
> I wonder if this uncomfortableness in receiving is because you feel you don't "deserve" to receive good things, such as good sex with your wife, either on a subconscious level or on a conscious level, or both, and so you unintentionally have allowed that feeling to manifest in your marital sex life.
> 
> ...


 @WildMustang,
I have done some soul searching in that regard and the answer is really that there's quite a different dynamic.

I actually am confident I deserve these things. False modesty aside, I do have a rather high opinion of myself. I have an exceptionally high opinion of my integrity and my contributions to the lives of others, so I naturally expect reciprocation.

The dynamic at play is that I don't like to feel like I owe anybody anything. I'm the kind of guy who has never paid a penny of interest on any kind of loan, credit card, etc (mortgage excepted and we paid that off way early). I like to get ahead of things. I build up max vacation time before I take any, etc. I'm just debt averse and that carries over into my private life. That doesn't mean I want anybody to feel like they owe me anything. I do what I do out of love, commitment, duty, etc. So I'm admittedly living a bit of a double standard here. 

As a kid, I could be a brat, and we were quite poor at times. I carry that with me to this day. I don't ever want to fall back into a pattern of expecting anything, especially from those who aren't in a position to provide it. So when my I recognized my wife as LD, and then when she developed health issues that, while not actually debilitating, did affect her drive and even ability to engage, I tried to be sympathetic, probably overly so. 

... until it became too much. 

My wife calls me "Atlas" because I'm not happy unless I've got the weight of the world on my back. I'm getting over that, but it's not a natural transition. My wife also has really been trying to do a lot of little things for me lately as I think she feels bad for allowing me to carry so much weight for so long. I'm starting to get better at letting her do so, but again, it's not natural. 

It seems this dynamic may carry over into the bedroom. Maybe if I can get a grip on this in the rest of my life, it will improve there as well.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

WildMustang said:


> Man, if she has mentioned sex therapy, even if half-heartedly, I would take that bull by the horns and run with it!
> 
> Yes, she is happy with your sex life, because It's on her terms. Of course she is happy with it.
> 
> ...


No offense taken. Valid question.
The reluctance for therapy is not ego so much as doubt about return on investment. I know lots of stories of $$ spent and no improvement made. I'm dubious about what a therapist could do. 

That said, we can certainly afford it and even if it doesn't pan out, it's no worse than a week in Vegas. 

But I'm also confident when she threw it out there it was in the same tone as when she said "do you want to find someone else?" when I told here I wasn't feeling it anymore. I think it was rather patronizing rather than a genuine move toward improvement. I could be wrong.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> But, it's important to get some "norms" in here so that everyone doesn't get the wrong idea :smile2:
> 
> And I think it's important to note that 'sexually submissive" is not the same as "submissive".
> 
> If I tell my wife "clean the kitchen", it's not going to go well.


:rofl::redcard:


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

All of this discussion of needing a strong man in a leadership role has been fascinating.

I have always been that man, in both the (most of) relationship and in my life. 

There are two exceptions. 
1. Finances. I'm strong in that area, but so is my wife. We're perfectly equal partners there. She's good with money.. really good. I'd be a fool to not make good use of that. And since she's got the time, all the better to let her run with things there. 
2. The topic at hand. I was a strong leader sexually early in the relationship. Years of being told no more often than not eventually wore me down. That and her only going along with some things reluctantly and never developing a taste for them. Frequency/Variety/Intensity mismatches conditioned me to back off the strong leadership role there.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Frequency/Variety/Intensity mismatches conditioned me to back off the strong leadership role there.


And your backing off while continuing to meet all (or most) of her needs conditioned her to disregard your sexual needs. 

It sounds like basically, you trained her/conditioned her that is was acceptable/okay to disregard your sexual needs.

Questions are:

How do you undo that training/conditioning?

Can you undo it?

Do you have the mental stamina this late in the game (after decades with this dynamic at play) to do what needs to be done to change it?

Will it do more damage than good to the relationship at this stage?

Do you even want to tackle it at this point?

If you tackle it and do not succeed in resolving it to your satisfaction, what then?

Only you can answer these questions.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> All of this discussion of needing a strong man in a leadership role has been fascinating.
> 
> I have always been that man, in both the (most of) relationship and in my life.
> 
> ...


The leadership part is overrated. Especially when LD is all about control of one's sexuality.

Leadership can't motivate an LD spouse to do it any more than a coach can motivate a frozen out placekicker to nail a 60 yarder.

Leadership assumes a certain amount of reward or punishment over those being "led". Without that, you have buddies.

Next week I'm handing out profit sharing info to my lab rats. That tends to motivate the rats during the crucial holiday period before CES in January. 

Exactly how do you motivate someone who knows the paycheck is going to the account regardless? 

Either bring all kinds of business lingo to the bedroom - pay for performance  or performance improvement plan or.... - or admit it's a lost cause if the non confirming spouse has nothing to lose.

Risk / reward is one of the most fundamental human decision tools. Marriage throws this out the window, resorting in psychobabble Mickey Mousery like MMSLP etc.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> My wife calls me "Atlas" because I'm not happy unless I've got the weight of the world on my back. I'm getting over that, but it's not a natural transition. My wife also has really been trying to do a lot of little things for me lately as I think she feels bad for allowing me to carry so much weight for so long. I'm starting to get better at letting her do so, but again, it's not natural.


Me too.

And the fact that you do so much for her and she can't be bothered (seemingly) to do the one thing that you desire makes it all the more galling. But........ 

The last thing she expects is for you to have needs. There's always been very little that you needed her to do for you (or, for that matter, let her do for you).

She's had very little practice in caring about your happiness.

Lots of times it turns out that they couldn't care less about what you need.

But your wife seems like a good, loving person who might just welcome the chance to focus on making you happy for a change.

You're going to have to be very clear about what you want. She's not expecting you to talk seriously about your needs so it may take a while to get through to her.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

john117 said:


> Exactly how do you motivate someone who knows the paycheck is going to the account regardless?


I am not convinced you can.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> But, it's important to get some "norms" in here so that everyone doesn't get the wrong idea :smile2:
> 
> And I think it's important to note that 'sexually submissive" is not the same as "submissive".
> 
> If I tell my wife "clean the kitchen", it's not going to go well.


I know you were posting this in a light hearted manner, but it does beg to question.

You know there is a difference between being dominant versus being domineering, right?


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

GettingIt_2 said:


> Just out of curiosity: does your husband not like sexually submissive women, or women who are submissive in a more general sense?
> 
> I think women (and men) can be sexually submissive, but not at all submissive in life outside the bedroom. For some individuals, the need to be highly dominant in a career or family role drives the urge to "lay down that load" in the bedroom.
> 
> ...


I thought I replied but I did not! 

Both, generally. 

My husband respects strong people and he's grown up with strong women. His mom is worked as an LEO. His sister is a lawyer. His best friends are bad-ass entrepreneurs.

He is attracted to sweet and nice (which is me!) but gets bored with "general" submissiveness. I think personality wise, I am what he likes-Bubbly, friendly and nice but cool/cold temperament, opinionated but laid back on how I express it. Expects his woman to run her life and some of his. 

Sexually, he finds submission uh..unappealing? His drive is higher than mine and will take advantage of willingness...but he gets bored, disinterested and lazy if there isn't a bit of "you'll work for this," in there. He also likes a bit of aggression on my end and being told what to do so...most times. Sometimes not, which is what makes life fun.

As an aside, I mostly see women post on here sometimes with men that sound like my husband and the advice they generally need to take comes from the men talking about what they need to do to get respect from their women but with a feminine spin.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

FrenchFry said:


> I thought I replied but I did not!
> 
> Both, generally.
> 
> ...


It's interesting to hear how others think of "submission," both in terms of sex and of general personality. 

My submission is part of our intentional dynamic (arrived at after failure and self-reflection) less so than an "organic" part of who I am. It's not descriptive of any particular behavior in the sack; rather, it's descriptive of the power dynamic that seems to keep the two of us most highly sexual in this stage of our 30 year relationship. 

I wouldn't say that my husband likes submissive women in general, or submissive-style sex . . . but that having me _submit to him sexually_ is desirable. 

That being said, there was a protracted knock-down drag out physical wresting match last night before he was able to wrest of my panties and take what he was after. (But at least I made him bleed, lol.) I'm not sure how many people would consider that "submissive sex." However, an element of *our* dynamic and of *my* submission is consensual non-consent. 

It can be hard to suss out what "submissive" means in these conversations. I like being man handled. I like being dominated. I like being the object in sexual exchanges. I prefer not to initiate. I love having my boundaries pushed--even beyond what is probably "safe and healthy." I hate having choice when it comes to pleasing my husband. I love the physical side of sex and orgasm easily, but the psychological experience is far more of a "rush" to me. Of that laundry list, I'm not sure how many things can be said to be inherent traits of a "sexual submissive." I think labels only matter when applied to a particular dynamic.  

In @Rocky Mountain Yeti's case as set forth in this thread, what it would look like for his wife to be "submissive" would, in the broadest terms, just mean that she cedes control (or at least a larger portion of it) of her sexuality and their sex life to him. How that would look as far as behavior goes might be vastly different than any other power-exchange style dynamic. 



FrenchFry said:


> As an aside, I mostly see women post on here sometimes with men that sound like my husband and the advice they generally need to take comes from the men talking about what they need to do to get respect from their women but with a feminine spin.


I read this sentence several times, but I didn't quite understand it. Are you saying women with husbands like yours generally need to take the advice that is often given to men here on TAM?


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I read this sentence several times, but I didn't quite understand it. Are you saying women with husbands like yours generally need to take the advice that is often given to men here on TAM?


Yes, for sure! The female version of "man-up." 



GettingIt_2 said:


> It's interesting to hear how others think of "submission," both in terms of sex and of general personality.
> 
> My submission is part of our intentional dynamic (arrived at after failure and self-reflection) less so than an "organic" part of who I am. It's not descriptive of any particular behavior in the sack; rather, it's descriptive of the power dynamic that seems to keep the two of us most highly sexual in this stage of our 30 year relationship.
> 
> ...


I would consider it submissive unless you got a weapon to neutralize him...which could be kind of fun. 



> It can be hard to suss out what "submissive" means in these conversations. I like being man handled. I like being dominated. I like being the object in sexual exchanges. I prefer not to initiate. I love having my boundaries pushed--even beyond what is probably "safe and healthy." I hate having choice when it comes to pleasing my husband. I love the physical side of sex and orgasm easily, but the psychological experience is far more of a "rush" to me. Of that laundry list, I'm not sure how many things can be said to be inherent traits of a "sexual submissive." I think labels only matter when applied to a particular dynamic.
> 
> In @Rocky Mountain Yeti's case as set forth in this thread, what it would look like for his wife to be "submissive" would, in the broadest terms, just mean that she cedes control (or at least a larger portion of it) of her sexuality and their sex life to him. How that would look as far as behavior goes might be vastly different than any other power-exchange style dynamic.


 I agree that it is hard and it's so dependent on one's dynamic, but like the biggest thing that I think makes me not submissive is: I love having a choice when it comes to pleasing my husband. I cherish it and I exercise that choice quite frequently. I would be (have been) a deeply unhappy person when I give that power away and I have always felt my sexual best when I am the Goddess...and the Goddess gets to decide how she wants to be worshiped.


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## dubsey (Feb 21, 2013)

FrenchFry said:


> ... and I have always felt my sexual best when I am the Goddess...and the Goddess gets to decide how she wants to be worshiped.


Interesting. I could certainly roll with that. I mean, it sounds totally fun.

However, the exact same words, "I am the Goddess and the only thing that matters" is what my wife says she feels like when she's told what to do, and then I worship the art of her craft.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

dubsey said:


> Interesting. I could certainly roll with that. I mean, it sounds totally fun.
> 
> However, the exact same words, "I am the Goddess and the only thing that matters" is what my wife says she feels like when she's told what to do, and then I worship the art of her craft.


I'll be honest, I've rarely felt that sensation when being told what to do. Mostly my immediate thoughts - in and out of bed are - "that's a no." I grok it though.

Coming back to the @Rocky Mountain Yeti's deal though, the way I think/run my life and bedroom might not be super applicable but I just wanted to throw out a answer to @Notself's question.


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## dubsey (Feb 21, 2013)

yeah, I get that. it's not really my deal either, but rather what gets her going, and if that's what it takes, I'm more than happy to play along. I just found your Goddess thing interesting as that was the same way she described herself.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

FrenchFry said:


> Yes, for sure! The female version of "man-up."
> 
> I would consider it submissive unless you got a weapon to neutralize him...which could be kind of fun.


Naw, no weapon here. He's pretty good about not abusing his size and strength, though. It's pretty sobering, however, to fight tooth and nail still get ****ed. 



FrenchFry said:


> I agree that it is hard and it's so dependent on one's dynamic, but like the biggest thing that I think makes me not submissive is: I love having a choice when it comes to pleasing my husband. I cherish it and I exercise that choice quite frequently. I would be (have been) a deeply unhappy person when I give that power away and I have always felt my sexual best when I am the Goddess...and the Goddess gets to decide how she wants to be worshiped.


Totally love having the choice to please my husband, too. It was hard for me to give power away, too, but I knew I would be happier if I could learn to do it. Or at least I knew I was miserable when I had to control every.little.thing.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I am very uncomfortable receiving things as well, but it's not because I believe I don't deserve them.
> 
> It's because I got through childhood by never letting people know they were getting to me.
> 
> ...


While you do/did all that to avoid being told "No!", the flip side of that is that you never give your chance a choice to say "Yes!" or them for that matter.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

GettingIt_2 said:


> It's interesting to hear how others think of "submission," both in terms of sex and of general personality.
> 
> My submission is part of our intentional dynamic (arrived at after failure and self-reflection) less so than an "organic" part of who I am. It's not descriptive of any particular behavior in the sack; rather, it's descriptive of the power dynamic that seems to keep the two of us most highly sexual in this stage of our 30 year relationship.
> 
> ...


Indeed! What you describe would never fly in our house. 

However... There has been movement in this direction as she has given me freedom to push activities previously not engaged in. She has also let me direct the recent encounters without her objecting or finding reasons not to. And she has finished in a better mood than before we started, which is the most encouraging part of all.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

FrenchFry said:


> Yes, for sure! The female version of "man-up."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That sounds marvelous as well. On a few occasions, my wife has looked at me with control in her eyes and said in a dead serious voice "Okay, you can do X now." Those were exceptional encounters.

As a big fan of variety, I'd like to think our relationship has the room and flexibility to do both from time to time. Each of us should be open to answering the others' demands when the mood moves them to step up and take control. We certainly do this in other aspects of our relationship.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Indeed! What you describe would never fly in our house.
> 
> However... There has been movement in this direction as she has given me freedom to push activities previously not engaged in. She has also let me direct the recent encounters without her objecting or finding reasons not to. And she has finished in a better mood than before we started, which is the most encouraging part of all.


Given you freedom?

Let you?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Given you freedom?
> 
> Let you?


There’s definitely some negotiation/give and take here. No matter how many people tell me to man up, I’m not going to rape her. 

I said “do this here and now” and she complied. She didn’t have to comply, and if she didn’t, I wouldn’t have forced or coerced. I was in control during the event, but she had to cede control going in and I still have to acknowledge there are thing that, if I force them, would damage the trust that is so important here.

I’d rather explore/expand boundaries at a sustainable pace, than force a collapse and withdrawal. I believe I’m feeling this out rather well at this time.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Indeed! What you describe would never fly in our house.
> 
> However... There has been movement in this direction as she has given me freedom to push activities previously not engaged in. She has also let me direct the recent encounters without her objecting or finding reasons not to. * And she has finished in a better mood than before we started, which is the most encouraging part of all.*


This is a great thing to talk about; and maybe it is something that would an easier place for her to start than focusing on sex acts (because you mentioned it makes her uncomfortable to talk about aspects of sex that don't seem "natural" to her.) Has SHE noticed the change in her mood after those encounters? Is she able to pinpoint what it is that elevates her mood? And, if so, would she be willing to tell you? That last question is important, because it could be that her mood is elevated for reasons that might not be easy for you to hear.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> There’s definitely some negotiation/give and take here. No matter how many people tell me to man up, I’m not going to rape her.
> 
> I said “do this here and now” and she complied. She didn’t have to comply, and if she didn’t, I wouldn’t have forced or coerced. I was in control during the event, but she had to cede control going in and I still have to acknowledge there are thing that, if I force them, would damage the trust that is so important here.
> 
> I’d rather explore/expand boundaries at a sustainable pace, than force a collapse and withdrawal. I believe I’m feeling this out rather well at this time.


It's a delicate balance, and you do seem to have your finger on the pulse. That being said, she isn't going to cede control unless you keep encouraging her to do so. You will feel more willing to push her boundaries if you have buy-in from her on trying a new dynamic. This sort of thing ("power exchange") is almost impossible to do one-sided, because it forces you to tread so lightly and to GUESS at how she's feeling based on your observations of her. I'm sure you know her quite well after all the years you've been together, but it's still just your "best guess." And because of the sort of person you are, you will err on the side of caution--as you well should. Nonetheless less, when you are talking about "exchange," it implies that BOTH people are intentional in the process. 

Can you get her to talk about it on a level above just the sex acts themselves, and see if she'd be willing to do some (or continue to do some) "power exchange" activities with you? They can even be non-sexual in nature. It's about getting her to willingly step outside of her comfort zone, and trusting you to lead that process.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

GettingIt_2 said:


> This is a great thing to talk about; and maybe it is something that would an easier place for her to start than focusing on sex acts (because you mentioned it makes her uncomfortable to talk about aspects of sex that don't seem "natural" to her.) Has SHE noticed the change in her mood after those encounters? Is she able to pinpoint what it is that elevates her mood? And, if so, would she be willing to tell you? That last question is important, because it could be that her mood is elevated for reasons that might not be easy for you to hear.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All good stuff there. Thank you. 

You’re spot on about the dangers of one sided guessing—especially so here because she is generally not demonstrative. She has told me many times how happy she is that I didn’t take an outward lack of enthusiasm personally early in our dating and be crushed and just give up like so many other guys did. She needed a strong man who isn’t easily deterred and I was the only one who passed muster.

That said, she did have one other LTR before me and he did force less than consensual sex (her words were that she didn’t think of it as “rape” at the time, but by today’s standards it most definitely would be considered rape—suffice it to say that she didn’t enjoy it). So I do have to remain cautious about being too demanding. But with 30 years of trust in the bank, I do have some leeway.


As far as ceding control in other areas, she already does that to a large degre. There are things like planning vacations that she leaves up to me, and for my part, I’m very much in tune with what she likes and I’m a master scheduler who knows how to ensure we both get what we want without over scheduling and taking the fun out of things.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> There’s definitely some negotiation/give and take here. No matter how many people tell me to man up, I’m not going to rape her.
> 
> I said “do this here and now” and she complied. She didn’t have to comply, and if she didn’t, I wouldn’t have forced or coerced. I was in control during the event, but she had to cede control going in and I still have to acknowledge there are thing that, if I force them, would damage the trust that is so important here.
> 
> I’d rather explore/expand boundaries at a sustainable pace, than force a collapse and withdrawal. I believe I’m feeling this out rather well at this time.


I agree with this. 

I misunderstood the context of what you were referencing.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> As far as ceding control in other areas, she already does that to a large degre. There are things like planning vacations that she leaves up to me, and for my part, I’m very much in tune with what she likes and I’m a master scheduler who knows how to ensure we both get what we want without over scheduling and taking the fun out of things.


I'm talking about ceding control in areas that she is not comfortable with ceding control, and in which a pattern has not already been established. 

This is about changing the _existing_ power dynamic.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

GettingIt_2 said:


> I'm talking about ceding control in areas that she is not comfortable with ceding control, and in which a pattern has not already been established.
> 
> This is about changing the _existing_ power dynamic.


I already lead most everything save for financial management and I have no inclination to increase my role in that area. She’s down to managing the gnats ass level of detail. We’re now in a position where it could all go south and we’d still be well off. I used to be into it when I was younger and we were still building the nest egg, but at this point, I have no inclination to obsess over how we can make our investments earn 12% instead of 10%.

I have been trying to exert control in this area by pushing her to back off in this area and simply enjoy the fruits of our labor and years of frugal living. I need to be more explicit though, as in “You need to spend less time and effort on my money and more on me!”

Side note—it’s really “our money,” but I sometimes feel frustrated that she obsesses over it since I was always the primary breadwinner (and the only after we had kids). To her credit, she tries so hard in part because at this point she feels that’s how she can best contribute financially. It’s a fine line between sending the message that it’s more important for her to contribute to the marriage than to the portfolio without belittling her feelings or telling her that what she finds important or helpful, isn’t.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I already lead most everything save for financial management and I have no inclination to increase my role in that area. She’s down to managing the gnats ass level of detail. We’re now in a position where it could all go south and we’d still be well off. I used to be into it when I was younger and we were still building the nest egg, but at this point, I have no inclination to obsess over how we can make our investments earn 12% instead of 10%.
> 
> I have been trying to exert control in this area by pushing her to back off in this area and simply enjoy the fruits of our labor and years of frugal living. I need to be more explicit though, as in “You need to spend less time and effort on my money and more on me!”
> 
> Side note—it’s really “our money,” but I sometimes feel frustrated that she obsesses over it since I was always the primary breadwinner (and the only after we had kids). To her credit, she tries so hard in part because at this point she feels that’s how she can best contribute financially. It’s a fine line between sending the message that it’s more important for her to contribute to the marriage than to the portfolio without belittling her feelings or telling her that what she finds important or helpful, isn’t.


You could be right about her feeling like finances are something she can do that you approve of, see value in, and have praised her for. It's a place she can count on for affirmation that she is a "good" wife. I have a feeling she knows she isn't valued in the same way for her contribution to the physical intimacy area of your marriage. Maybe she thinks she just can never be the sexual person you want her to be. Maybe that assumption of failure is holding her back from putting more of her resources towards trying. 

I wouldn't pressure her too much to back off on the things that make her feel like a good contributor. But you can still ask her to put more focus on the areas that are important to YOU at this stage in the marriage. Leave it up to her to decide how's she's going to reprioritize her resources (time, emotional energy, etc) in order to give your needs more attention. 

Be careful about making comments about how she currently chooses to spend her time and energy. You can ask for more from her for the intimacy in your marriage, but don't single out the areas that should be debited. Let her control that.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Agreed on all counts.

I definitely see her busting her rear in virtually ever other area and have postulated that it is at least partly driven out of a desire to compensate for not being able to have sex more often.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Agreed on all counts.
> 
> I definitely see her busting her rear in virtually ever other area and have postulated that it is at least partly driven out of a desire to compensate for not being able to have sex more often.


That's like me making coffee everyday at work to compensate for blowing our target metrics for the year. It doesn't work like that.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

john117 said:


> That's like me making coffee everyday at work to compensate for blowing our target metrics for the year. It doesn't work like that.


Well that, of course, is part of the consternation that led to me swallowing my pride and starting this thread in the first place.

... although I don’t see it as quite that egregious and I can still acknowledge the effort even if it’s not exactly where I want it.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> *There’s definitely some negotiation/give and take here*. No matter how many people tell me to man up, I’m not going to rape her.


Absolutely the bolded.

This is consensual non-consent.

Non-consensual non-consent isn't okay even if that's what she wants. 

The important part is that this is done outside of the sexual encounter.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> .... I still have to acknowledge there are thing that, if I force them, would damage the trust that is so important here.


That's what safe words are for, so that you don't "force" anything.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> However... There has been movement in this direction as she has given me freedom to push activities previously not engaged in. She has also let me direct the recent encounters without her objecting or finding reasons not to. And she has finished in a better mood than before we started, which is the most encouraging part of all.


This is a *very* positive development.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

5 of 7 and we're still together. 

Not sure if that's something to be proud or ashamed of. (to be honest, not all the questions have black and white answers, so only a couple indicators are solid while the rest are squishy)

*7 Signs A Marriage Won’t Last, According To Sex Therapists*

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sex-problems-that-could-tank-a-marriage_us_58dadd02e4b054637062ff98


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Rocky, after you posted this I went back an read some of the old thread. I have posted this on another thread or two today as it is in my head, sorry to all for sounding like a broken record, but has your wife gone for hormone testing. I have no idea if it is even medically viable or safe at her age but It might be an option. Before kids, my wife was always a tiger, after kids she still enjoyed sex but didn't experience the same spontaneous lust. Since I had experience with testosterone causing intense sexual desire we began researching doctors studying treating low drive with hormone therapy. We ended up seeing a doctor in Boston who was studying this and treating female patients with low drive with testosterone therapy. Well it worked, it worked amazingly well this kicked off the last 10 years being her being even more sexual than before kids. Even now off therapy she still has it. We found the Boston doc through a doctor who did this work specifically dedicated to female sexuality and had a national radio show we use to listen to, now she is the cohost of the Doctors. Her name is Dr. Jen Berman, her website is Bermansexualhealth.com. Check it out, it sounds like your wife has been willing to try things, this just might lead to her begging you to try things you haven't even thought of. 

You situation was you where standing on the porch knocking on the door waiting for someone to answer, no one did so you stopped knocking and walked away. The change in you feelings was so sudden because we always keep knocking expecting someone to answer the door until the last moment.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> Rocky, after you posted this I went back an read some of the old thread. I have posted this on another thread or two today as it is in my head, sorry to all for sounding like a broken record, but has your wife gone for hormone testing. I have no idea if it is even medically viable or safe at her age but It might be an option. Before kids, my wife was always a tiger, after kids she still enjoyed sex but didn't experience the same spontaneous lust. Since I had experience with testosterone causing intense sexual desire we began researching doctors studying treating low drive with hormone therapy. We ended up seeing a doctor in Boston who was studying this and treating female patients with low drive with testosterone therapy. Well it worked, it worked amazingly well this kicked off the last 10 years being her being even more sexual than before kids. Even now off therapy she still has it. We found the Boston doc through a doctor who did this work specifically dedicated to female sexuality and had a national radio show we use to listen to, now she is the cohost of the Doctors. Her name is Dr. Jen Berman, her website is Bermansexualhealth.com. Check it out, it sounds like your wife has been willing to try things, this just might lead to her begging you to try things you haven't even thought of.
> 
> You situation was you where standing on the porch knocking on the door waiting for someone to answer, no one did so you stopped knocking and walked away. The change in you feelings was so sudden because we always keep knocking expecting someone to answer the door until the last moment.


My wife has spent a good deal of time with an excellent D.O. She suffered from low energy in general and after years of no resolution, he was able to diagnose and confirm hypothyroidism. 

As part of trying to boost energy, they have gone through a number of hormone treatments, one of which included some testosterone. That definitely got her going... she said she couldn't get anything done all day because she couldn't stop thinking about sex, and I pretty much got mauled when I got home. She said "Now I know what it feels like to be you!"

But in the end, for other reasons, that wasn't the right hormone cocktail, so it's back to square one.

Also, she's frequently been prone to UTIs (despite fastidious hygiene on both our parts), and that has gotten worse with menopause... it seems thinning of vaginal walls increases avenues for infection.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> My wife has spent a good deal of time with an excellent D.O. She suffered from low energy in general and after years of no resolution, he was able to diagnose and confirm hypothyroidism.
> 
> As part of trying to boost energy, they have gone through a number of hormone treatments, one of which included some testosterone. That definitely got her going... she said she couldn't get anything done all day because she couldn't stop thinking about sex, and I pretty much got mauled when I got home. She said "Now I know what it feels like to be you!"
> 
> ...


Rocky so you know what it can do. If you go to Dr. Jen's website you'll see she deal with all these issues, UTIs pain during sex, everything. They are all included under the umbrella of female sexual health, she even has treatments for tightening the vaginal walls etc. Go have a look. 

She is on the front lines of optimizing women's sex lives. Most doctors approach medicine in a way that pays no attention to a woman from a sexual standpoint, they'll help with fertility issues etc. But in terms of women and improving their sexual desire and health most will say thats not a medical issue and send you to a mental health pro. There are only a handful of Docs in the US who take women seriously when it comes to sex but she is one and might know of one in your area. You can always have a nice vacation in LA see her get plan and then head up to Big Sur for some biking. Win Win Bud. Just imagine getting back to getting mauled when you walk in the door now that the kids are all gone. Like Lionel Richie says "All Night Long" You might need to dismantle you bikes to transfer the suspension to your bed. LOL


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