# The last "love" letter im sending today.



## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

I found an article about bad marriage counseling that mentioned "going alone to individual counseling for marriage problems increases the chance of divorce, research shows. That's because the client is telling only one side of the story to an empathetic therapist, so it becomes a gripe session about how unhappy the person is in the relationship and the absent partner starts to look even more like a monster, exacerbating the couple's polarization."


This above was sent to me, just wanted you to see it. 


I wanted you to know, that I love you, I always will. Maybe someday we'll look back and realize that the marriage wasn't as bad as everyone else says it was. We just started listening to everyone else instead of each other. I know its easy to place the blame, especially when neither of us was really dealing with it due to the kids/school/sports/work taking over our lives. Maybe some day we will be able to talk about it over a lunch. Somewhere we lost the balance in our lives, regrettable. I'm sorry that later in our lives we lost our identities for a while. We're finding them again, and again it comes down to choices that are put in front of us by others, instead of choices for each other. Its so funny how as much as we're different people from our parents, the lessons that we learned from them, unknowingly, end up coming full circle anyways. How the influences from our friends become more valuable than the influences of each other.


I know I want you to be happy, and according to everyone else, that will be without me. I understand new and fun things look more attractive than a man doing everything he can do, in an attempt to win the love of his life's heart back. Maybe someday you can forgive me for such futile and confusing efforts, and maybe someday, you'll even understand why I was doing it, even if I wasn't doing it right at the time. We'll both move on, and in some way get more and more comfortable with the idea that somehow failing in our marriage was ok, cause its what happens to everyone else too, so it must be ok, right? Maybe we'll regret that just a bit more effort was all we needed to find each other again. I don't know, its still a confusing time, for both of us. 


As I sat disillusioned at therapy today, I came to a strange conclusion. All they want to talk about it being about "me", and "self". Maybe that's what I take issue with, what after all is wrong with it being about "us" and "we", with some "me" sprinkled in. Isn't that exactly what marriage is supposed to be about? Making a decision that you want to "share" life with someone, not live it alone in the first place. I guess it comes down to being honest and open with that someone that keeps that door open. At this point, we've both managing to close that door, thru our growing abilities to make it about "me". Maybe you've even closed the door, locked it, and throw the key away hoping to never find it again. Its really too bad, that we've let it come down to this. I guess the "regret" will be different for us on different levels, but the regret will still be there. 


There will be a lot lost in the shuffle, a lot lost in our own new growing versions of what happened, the version our friends and family have, and of course the version of what counselors that didn't know us at all 2 months ago think we need to do for ourselves, but never a version of what we could do for each other. This is my last letter to you, I want you to understand that I'm accountable for my mistakes, that those are regrets that will carry me on to new relationships with better understanding of how it all fits together, but also that those regrets will be that I couldn't make it work for us, our kids, and our family.


I want you to understand, I didn't want to have regrets about not trying EVERYTHING to make it work, even thou "everything" is what eventually led us to where we are today. Sure there are regrets I would do differently, sure there are regrets for a different outcome. But I at least made the effort, which as this point leaves me with no regrets. I gave it my all, and in the end its all I had. Its time to come to one conclusion, that I cant do it alone, and that I cant keep trying for us. Its time to let go. Maybe if you can stop your resentment for a time, we can sit down and get this to its final conclusion. I think in fairness to everyone involved, its now the right thing to do for "me". Since these are the lessons were now being taught, "me", why not just let it finish out the way everyone else is steering us anyways. Lets get this done while we can still be somewhat amicable, a few more sessions and I think I might just end up being the devil himself in everyone's eyes.


your future ex husband.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

sorry title should have said last "love" letter i'll ever be sending, will be sending today.


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## committed4ever (Nov 13, 2012)

This so sad. Do you have any hope at all? Do you think she still loves you? 

"One Last" mean to me I'm trying one last time.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

No hope at all, no love left, her friends, and her counselor have been telling her for 2.5 months don't even try, move forward to get past the problems, and dont look back ever again. 

When we talked last week she wouldn't give me the divorce, but each time she goes to this counselor she's being pushed away from the idea of working on the marriage, like the first paragraph, its not long before they start to demonize you so they feel more comfortable ending it. But the abuse and accusations get to the point that im starting to ask myself, WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU EVEN TALKING ABOUT NOW??? 15 years ago I didn't tie your shoe while you were sitting on the couch watching tv?? I'm not sure how some of these so called MARRIAGE therapists even get liscensed. She told us 15 minutes into our first/only session that the marriage was over, just move on, I can help with that individually. please insert 120.00 each week per person for 12 weeks of help.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

I am really sorry Thumper. Let us know how she takes it.

I was going to suggest leaving it with a copy of "His needs, Her needs" but with your reply to Committed, I see this it is beyond that too. 

So sorry.......


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Thumper, 

For Pete's sake, say you didn't send that letter?

The victim doesn't play well. You must know that by now?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

That letter is really really weak.

Don't say this is it, just do it. File the papers, have her served. Saying you're going to jump before you jump is just so....weak.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

we've talked divorce, I cant afford a contested divorce, roughly 10k. EVERYTHING is in my name, I cant even go get an apartment till she agrees to refinance her car in her name. The one attorney I got a free consul with said she's going to have to get take on some debt before we can even file a uncontested as my debt ratio with the one income in now 86% or something. I'm begging we can sit down and hammer out some details. For us an uncontested self submitting divorce is 450.00. I've been asking for 3 weeks for the divorce, doing the 180/alpha/tough has got me nowhere. I'm begging for a divorce not marriage counseling.


I CANT file for divorce, its 2k up front with an attorney, and I know (she already told me) she will fight it. The second she does, I get to pay her attorney too.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

If she doesn't want a divorce then what does she want?


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

She says im too alpha, not enough beta, she only seems to respond when im in the sympathy routine. She's told me 3 weeks in a row she wont give me a divorce, I stopped trying to win her back weeks ago. We hardly talk, and i'm moving to another state in 12 days, I need to get some of this handled so I can get a place to live for my kids and I. Right now, I cant, and she responds to this stuff, not the self absorbed, tough guy, im working on me stuff, I already spent 20+ years doing that, she's immune.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Who knows what she wants, it changes all the time, I stopped asking those questions. One day its wait for me while I find myself, other days she's "done", so I set up the appt. and then when the time comes she doesn't show up. I just know what I've been doing hasn't worked, so im trying something new.

I have a realtor, been looking at places, but until I can get these financials figured out, im stuck.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Thumper, call your state's bar association to see if they offer free forms to help you file if you need to do it yourself. 

What is her reason for not agreeing to a divorce? This sounds bizarre that she's wrapped up in "me" but not willing to divorce. 

I agree that the letter's a bad idea. You make some great points, but you can make those points without playing the victim. I get it that you feel it's the only thing she responds to, but even if she's responsive, the same problems will exist. 

It also seems to me that you're both resenting the same thing. "You're too alpha" = "You're not prioritizing me as the woman you want to treasure." How is this different from her rejecting you and forgetting the "us" and "we?" 

Sounds like she wants you to let her sometimes be your advisor, your confidante, and above all, your friend, but instead she feels like you are her supervisor.


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## stuck in los angeles (Feb 15, 2013)

Wow, very sad to read for someone like me that's going through their own thoughts of walking away. It's well worded though.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

They do offer free forms, but I still have to pay filing fee's and some kind of closing costs, thus the 450.00

She wont agree to a divorce because she doenst want it yet, her only issue is that she doesn't want it to feel like a failure, even thou shes making NO attempt to work on the marriage, its not about me at this point. In fact, she spent the 4 day weekend out of town partying so hard she passed out drunk every night. Which was also our 21st anniv. There is NO saving this marriage. 

I need to get this resolved for me and the kids. The only time I've got her to respond to ANYTHING. I've taken over almost all the cooking, cleaning, laundry, kids to/from school. Which is why we are here in the first place, I didn't help enough with those duties. Since then she's responded in the positive, if you can call it that, that she wants me to give her time and resolves some other issues (work, parents/family). For a while I did the 180, still am actually, and there was talk of addressing the marriage at a later date. 

Recently that has changed from getting to the marriage after I work on me, to im done. I took a job in another state, she wants me to take the kids to free herself up for her lifestyle. I just need to get this closed off for financial reasons now. I'm stuck, this is my last attempt at getting a cheap divorce, its gonna take 6 months to get a contested divorce finalized, a lot of money and I have neither of that atm.

So basically I've been doing the beta traits recently, she responded up until the point that she's deeper into her fun. I tried saying the kids need a home, she doesn't want to supply that home, I want to supply the home, but with the debt ratio I cant get credit for a candy bar.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Since yesterday, at work, her office has had major internet issues. She's been calling me, trying to get me to walk her thru the fixes over the phone, not because she's reaching out. BUT because she doesn't want me to see whats on her computer.

If you think theres a better way to attack this, or a strat I haven't tried yet, please feel free to give me some ideas. I guarantee I've tried them, loan me the 10k, im good for it promise. /wink


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

If you're moving in 12 days you aren't stuck. You're moving away from the problem... which IMO is a good thing. 

She doesn't have to impede you getting a place to live, you're doing that anyway if you're moving in a few days. Where are you staying when you move? 

Move. Then sort her out. The kids are out of school in a little bit too. They can come with you and you all hole up in wherever you're staying or you come pick them up at a later date. She's controlling too much of what you're trying to do and you shouldn't be letting her. Conduct yourself like she's already out of the equation for the first 30 days. She is anyway IMO. The rest can be sorted later after the move, after you've settled in somewhere.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Oh and I agree with the others. No last love letter. She knows exactly how you feel already. She doesn't need one more attempt to nail it home. She DOES get it. She just DOESN'T care about how you feel.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

They wont let me rent the apartment im moving too, cause she still hasn't got the car refinanced into her name, so I don't qualify until (due to debt ratio) that's part is at least done. I cant in a divorce get the court to write off the car, or have the debt assigned to her, and her name isn't on the car. I even tried to sell it, to get out from under it, but in this economy im upside down on it already. The money I do have right now is for the first/last/deposit and deposits on power/water at the new place. So yes she's still holding me up.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

> They wont let me rent the apartment im moving too, cause she still hasn't got the car refinanced into her name, so I don't qualify until (due to debt ratio) that's part is at least done.


So where are you going to live in 12 days then?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I wouldn't let a car stop me from doing anything. If I had to find an apartment on craigslist (private landlord) or live in a hotel I would.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

Oh, I remember now. Didn't you write a post not that long ago about your kids crying about how their mom has unplugged and stopped being a mom, and when you contronted her with this she got mad at you?

Yah, don't leave the letter. She has unplugged. It could be because you were too alpha, it could be because she is going through peri-menopause, it could be she has had enough, or it could be a combination. (I really think she is going through perimenopause because of the way she has unplugged from the kids and distorts reality). Really doesn't matter unless you are hoping for a R sometime down the road.

As far as your finances - do you have a loan on your car too? Can you trade both cars in for one and get the payments down? Can you call your debtors and arrange for smaller payments for a time? Can you sell things, even if you come out in the rears, and get them payed off earlier? Put the house on the market and see what happens.

You and the kids might have to stay in a motel for a couple of months till you get on your feet. There are some nicer ones that have kitchenets. There are also more people renting rooms than before due to the economy. Or maybe stay at a campinh site for a while, it is spring and the weather is getting better.

What does she not want you to see on her computer? If she is doing things she shouldn't, maybe you could use that to get your divorse? Follow her on her next GNO and take pictures. Even the fact that she is drinking till she passes out, or drinking and driving, might help your case.

And finally, 6 months is not that long for a divorse. You have a ball and chain around you and it is making you feel like you cannot move forward, just start the process and see where it goes.

Instead of the letter, I would just right out tell her. "I am sorry I wasn't the man you needed. I know it took me a while, but I have been trying. Apparently it was too late. I would love this marriage to work, I have always loved you, but it seems to me that you are done trying. So I am going to move forward with my life and I wish you the very best.".


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

Thumper, what did you end up doing?


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

I guess I should admit I havent told her I was moving. It was mentioed once. She didnt seem to care. So she got the letter. I thought I might have deleted it in time after the advice here tho. She said she thought the letter was very nice. That she has really learned to trust me with here feelings lately. As im finally willing to listen to her. BUT. She still wont give me a divorce right now as shes not sure she even wants a divorce from me yet. Grrr my daughter walked in. We've been trying to not talk about it in front of the kids. She sat down to watch tv. And I didnt want to push it in front of here. So I got up and took a walk. Coward !!! But in trying not to push with kids.

On a side note I was offered a job today in town. And. Have an opportunity to get into a house for almost NOTHING and will little up front.So now im rethinking everything. Kids would love to stay. Son could continue to go to same scchool with his friends. Crap I hate having doubts. Ny advice out there?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Thumper, why is it that she gets to decide on the outcome of the marriage without your input? Am I missing somthing?


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Heck with the financial restrictions I'm under. AND the fact I'm weak and don't seem to know what I'm doing lately cause of money.

So my 70 year old mother, not in great health, calls me yesterday and tells me she can't take it with her, is giving me 20% for a down payment on a house. I just need to find the house now. This was just what I needed mentally. I got very excited driving around looking at places today. 

I'll try to better update tonight, doing this from my kids kindle is to hard.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

ok, I guess deep down I would like to R. but the reality of it is, she just doesn't want it, now I've been doing my thing, gym, friends, staying out of the house, etc, etc.

Now let me preface this by saying we DID go to some MC, but got into a big fight 3 weeks ago on the way there, and then she said she was done......for now. I've been pretty solid 180 since then, until the letter I guess. I guess I've got some jealousy issues im just now coming to understand, and she's punishing me for them.

I wish I could figure out just exactly is the right way to go about, I honestly don't know. BUT I am gonna get a house, if she comes great, if not oh well. My kids are excited too. I'm not gonna tell her im house hunting right now, just enjoy the idea a while before she starts trying to tear me down again. I need to get better at shutting her down when she tries to reverse it all. I'm just learning that tool in IC. I wish I had started going much earlier, She's been going for over 3 months already, so im way behind in the figuring it out dept.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

If you buy a house while still married you will regret it.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

its not gonna be in my name until after the divorce is final I think, im not doing an FHA or fanny/freddy. Was going conventional. But think we'll just keep me off it for now, and i'll just make the payment and do an add to title later.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

Thumper, maybe I missed some info. in the threads, but I feel like you are spoon feeding us. Perhaps this is an indication of why you are having marital problems. You told us in one thread that your wife started hanging out with the neighbors, drinking, etc., things went down hill from there, and that she wanted a separation, BUT, never really told us what lead up to this. 

Then you said you left the house and was living on your own, now you are back in the house but separated. Who's idea was it to move back in?

You also told us that you owned your own business (which you depended on her family for most of your contracts) but was looking for other work, which apparently you are receiving offers now. Did you close your business? Did you tell your wife you were looking to close the business?

You received a job offer in another town but didn't tell your wife. Did your kids know they were going to be moving?

So your wife has pulled back from the marriage, why? You said she feels she can start to trust you with her feelings, why couldn't she before? You admitted to being alpha, what was the relationship like? Why was she so unhappy? If you want to R, why are you so excited about this house? If you are so far in debt, why would you even consider borowing money and getting into further debt?

What is really going on? Do you know what you want, or are you feeling so ungrounded you are flittering about?

I don't mean to come off rude, I am just really not sure we have enough info. to offer advice here.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

ok sorry, yes its as confusing as my life.

My wife works for her dad, they own a VERY large apartment complex. roughly 90% of my business was this property.

I didn't leave, i was kicked out of the house originally, I had come home from a sports event in another state that i had taken my kids too. Upon arriving home, my wife already had another apartment picked out for me and said she wanted a separation. I was stunned. At the time i was still getting work from my inlaws for 4 weeks.
My wife said she was disconnect from a couple of years of not helping with the kids/house/schoolwork/homework/attention to her/ and unwillingness to leave the house. I was fighting depression im finding out now.

Anyways, at this point, I instantly went into FIX IT mode, like i could just fix the problem in a week or two. I got clingy, wanted to be acknowledged for my efforts of taking cooking classes, doing all the laundry, fixing dinners, everything i wasn't doing before.

We started marriage counseling, and the first counselor asked my wife why i was out and not her? If she was so frustrated at doing all the work, why not stick me with it, and let her have the time away. She then said after 15 mins of the story, that the marriage was already over and we should just move on. But she agreed i should be in the house and my wife should leave. So i moved back in the next day. Now my wife wouldn't leave cause she felt the home we were in, supplied on property by her parents free of charge was hers not mine. She was a bit upset i was back in the house cause she felt like we'd become room-mates and she couldn't feel like she could miss me. But she wasn't giving up the townhome we lived in.

I talked to my wife and we tried another MC and we didn't agree with the MC assessment. The second MC we went to wasn't much help, but my wife felt a connection, and decided to go back to her for IC. After a quick turn around appt. This new MC also agreed the marriage was probably over, and then things just started getting worse. The MC told my wife you need to live for you, don't worry about the kids, they'll figure it out. Have fun and do what you want, if anyone disagrees with you, tell them to F off.

As my wife is basically the manager of this property, she started cutting my work off, so im stuck in the house with nothing to do but drive myself crazy. Now the work has become non existent but i still have the same bills coming in obviously. I started to panic, get angry, resentful, mistrusting, and blamed her on having an affair.

She was going out with our gay next door neighbor, to clubs, out drinking, coming home late, and basically just running from it all. 
I found this site, and everyone told me she was screwing guys left and right. Check this check that, don't trust her, she's lying to your face. etc etc.

Seemed like everytime she'd go out, even if it was 30 minutes, i'd get jealous and make things worse. My wife said i was never the jealous or controlling type until she asked for the separation. She's going to more and more IC, coming home each week saying it more over than the week before that is was over. At this point its been a couple of months, no check as no work. My kids are telling me that mom wasn't fixing them dinner the 4 weeks i was out, that she didn't seem to care about anything etc etc. I now get mad that she can leave me but don't leave the kids.

Now i could never prove a thing, checked everything i could, beat myself up over a possible EA/PA. But it ate me up, till one night her best friend called me and said she just had a talk with my wife. She told me I've got nothing to worry about, nothing is happening, she's just lost, and trying to find herself, but there is no other man.

Well i finally just let go of it all, im making things worse. My wife agrees to one more MC appt. we get into a nasty fight on the way over cause i don't think things are moving fast enough. At this point she's hurt i think she's been cheating, that im jealous and try to control her, etc etc. 

At this point im in the house doing everything i can to fix it, she's coming home and staying home every night, im start the 180 and learn some tools, My wife starts talking to me, and we're getting along better, for the sake of the kids. I'm still hoping for R, but she's now saying she's done..........for now........but that might change tomorrow, as she's been flopping as she sees me finally being the man she thought i was/could be. False hope on my side, or reading into too much.

i decided i couldn't keep trying to make it work myself, i need out of the house as this is becoming unhealthy for me. i start looking for a job when i got the call for job in another state. I told my wife about the call, she said i should take it, and take it with the kids, well i guess i get upset that she's so willing to throw it all away. We stop talking, but then my wife says we need to wait till kids finish school, and we can readdress it all then. I never told her i actually took the job, just that i would help focus on the kids/school. I ask my wife for the divorce at this time, she starts crying and talks about how proud she is of me making all these changes and that she is having doubts, and that she doesn't want to make a mistake. The TAM'ers tell me i'm a plan B, get out now, don't let her have her cake and eat it too. I stay for the kids at this point and stop trying for R, as the kids have almost all F's on there progress reports and about to lose half a year of school.

So she starts giving me these little hints, one last week about how nice it is to actually talk and have me listen to her finally. I told her i had applied for an apartment for the week school gets out, she didn't know it was in another state, but they declined me due to debt ratio, could she try to get the car refinanced as i need it out of my name. She said no, that was giving up on the marriage, and she wasn't ready to do that yet, the agreement was we give it 6 months of therapy, stay faithful, and work on ourselves i guess i agreed too when i was still a mess and wasn't hearing things.

Then last weekend she was down at her dads for 4 day weekend, she calls me everyday checks in, tells me about her day and on the second to last day tells me she misses our family. She then asks me to go to dinner when she gets back the next day, which is our 21 year anniv. My wifes best friend calls me, tells me there was no one there with my wife, nothing to worry about, but wondered if i was staying faithful. But she did drink till she passed out every night early. I figured this was my chance wrote her the letter this post is about, saying its been enough time, lets just get the divorce, etc etc.

Whew im sure im still leaving out details but that's the jest, i'll be honest i'd love to R, but as you can see from this post, she's not really trying/wanting one, just wants to not say she failed in our marriage. I'm trying at this point to be as amicable as possible, and her response was that she's trusting me more with when she talks to me, feels like we're growing a bit, and my daughter asks her, and she tells my daughter that she thinks thing are going well between us and to just give it more time, as we're both learning to deal with some hurt, things will be ok. I took it as she's learning to become comfortable with the idea of divorce. I cant allow her to keep throwing me crumbs in an attempt to prolong this. Now i haven't had a paycheck in 2 months, have saved just enough for apartment fees/power/etc. But she wont sign papers or get car situation fixed. I'm so broke, as the economy here is still awful, i worked some other jobs i picked up, didn't get much but stayed a float.
When finally mom said enough is enough, i'll give you the money, lets just get you out of there. 

So in summery, i guess I've had some anger issues, control issues, jealousy issues over this last 3-4 months, but she said she's noticed changes in me the last month or so (time ive been in IC) that are really positive and she might not be done after all. 

I'm excited cause i realize im done being pulled back, and need to move on for me and the kids sake, but i need some of this financial stuff taken care of, not so much now with my moms help now. I can get out next week when kids finish school now, and hopefully have a job to boot.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

OK Thumper, I am going to take a stab at it. You really didn't go into much detail about how your marriage has been over all for the past 21 years, so I am going to assume it was OK up until 2 years ago when you unplugged and quit helping with the kids and ignoring your wifes needs.

Obviously we can't ask your wife her side of the story, so I am going to make some presumptions.

If I felt my husband was unaproachable, I was taking care of the kids, house, cooking, working, etc., PLUS, he wasn't there for me, I would probably reach a breaking point too. I am sure she had been saying things to you before she kicked you out, but you didn't listen.

If this had gone on for 2 years, but I suspect it was longer than that, do you think it would be unreasonable for her to expect to see a change in you for months before she feels comfortable enough to trust you won't go back to the way it was? It is unrealistic to think that you should be able to fix 2 years worth of damage in 2 weeks. If you want this to work, you are going to have to work at it.

1. Figure out what her love language is - *and do it* - OFTEN - and *don't quit* just because you don't think it is working.

2. Keep plugged in - and *don't quit* because you don't think it is working.

3. Listen to her - LISTEN to her. Validate her feelings. Find out what her identity is to her - is being a mother an important identity, provider, person of cherity, wife - what part of her is important to her - show your appreciation for that part of her.

4. Don't stop - even though you don't see the changes you want to as fast as you want, she already admitted she was having second thoughts and was starting to trust you again. If you quit, you go right back to squar one and have to start all over again. It will take time to soften her, build trust and for those feelings to come back. Rome wasn't built in a day, and neither is a neglected marriage fixed in a week. If you spent 2 years neglecting her, then spend the next 2 making it up to her.

You have spent the past couple months feeling regected, she has spent the past *2 years* feeling that way, and you didn't care. Time to buck up and take your place in the family and marriage.

So there is my take on how your wife might be feeling, why she is behaving the way she has been and what might help.

I don't think you are a bad guy, just slipped off the path. I hope you have your depression under control, if not, you might want to see what can be done about it. You have basically two choices. You can plug back in and see if your marriage is salvagable, or you can use the money your mom is offering you and call it quits.

Good luck to you......... Keep us up to date


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Thank you very much for responding to the novel of the previous post. You make some GREAT points. 

My only problem with staying plugged in, is how? When she says she doesn't even know, but wont/isn't willing to share her process. The only thing that were doing right now, is learning to grow separately. We've exchanged the old barriers for new ones. I completely agree that things cant be fixed overnight or even within months.

The depression, wow its brutal stuff, its something that I've been getting help with, wish i'd known about a lot sooner. Its paralyzing on many different levels too. And despite what some people think, there is no magic pill that makes it go away. Its just like a marriage, its something you have to be constantly working on. You have your good days and your bad days.

As far as for the house thing, we lived in homes before, it was always a great outlet for me cleaning the pool, mowing my own lawn, amazing how picking weeds can make you feel like your accomplishing something. I'm sure if even she looked back, those were are happiest times. Living in this complex has been life sucking on the entire family, but its her safety net. And looking back at it, the stress and unstable lifestyle has def. contributed to our issues.
But, she wont leave here now, she doesn't even realize how its eating her up, how its changed her the last couple of years.

Anyways I really appreciate your opinion and willingness at following the posts. I've still got some issues im dealing with, although some of my changes are for the good, dealing with others, like the depression are a daily battle for now, but I am learning to work thru it, its a slow process.

BTW her love language is def. quality time, which is the LAST thing I can work on with her. As we don't spend any time at all together.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

Thumper said:


> My only problem with staying plugged in, is how? When she says she doesn't even know, but wont/isn't willing to share her process. The only thing that were doing right now, is learning to grow separately. We've exchanged the old barriers for new ones. I completely agree that things cant be fixed overnight or even within months.
> 
> *She is not going to share her feelings with you until she feels you have changed for good and are emotionally safe for her. You need to communicate with her, stay open with your feelings and intentions and ask her to try to be honest with you. But don't force anything.*
> 
> BTW her love language is def. quality time, which is the LAST thing I can work on with her. As we don't spend any time at all together.


*Yes you can, if she is feeling uncertain about divorce and may be wanting to give the marriage another try, you can. Ask her out to go dancing, take her to dinner, there are a lot of things you can do, but as she is enjoying the night life right now, be part of it. It is hard to argue when you are busy dancing. Once things get better you can move on to more private time together.*

As far as the job goes, I think it is good that you have another job that is not dependent on her and her family. It will make you look better in her eyes that you are man enough to support you and your family without depending on her and hers.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

She doesn't want to spend time with me, I've asked her to go dancing, the response is its "too soon", dinner ends up being small forced talk as she wont say much. It frustrating to say the least, I've been willing to wait it out thou, its a daily morale killer, but im learning to be patient with it, AND not let it effect me the same as it did before. Thus I think the "trusting me more" comment, but lets face it, its all a guess whether im doing this right or wrong, cause the communication is so broken.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

So this weekend we ended up sitting down and talking again. She says her IC isn't getting her anywhere after 3 months. She feels like she's right back at square one. Except now she doesn't even want to talk to her friends anymore either. She said she was sorry for the way she's been, lost, with the kids and myself.

She said she wants to go to MC this week with me, because nothing seems to be working anyways, she might as well try this(ouch). She said she's gonna just forget about herself and do the MC until she can figure it all out. 

I don't feel this is right, if she's not committed to it then she's not gonna get anything out of it? How do I even respond to that? Or am I wrong? should I take this as a first baby step? She says she doesn't want to break the family up, she sees what its doing to the kids, is that enough for now? She's willing to try to do what it takes, but shes there more for me than for her as she doenst think she's ever gonna find herself, or make everyone happy and be happy herself. It feels like its for all the wrong reasons. I tried to get her off the couch to take a walk, she didn't want to go, but eventually got up and went with me. It felt forced and distant. 
Any ideas?


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Take the step (MC)! What can you lose, your marriage?


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Thumper said:


> its not gonna be in my name until after the divorce is final I think, im not doing an FHA or fanny/freddy. Was going conventional. But think we'll just keep me off it for now, and i'll just make the payment and do an add to title later.


Um, it doesn't matter what kind of loan you get or if you're on the loan alone. If you close before your divorce, make her sign a waiver that says she gives up any claim she has to it before you close, or get a separation agreement that spells that out. There is NO WAY AROUND THIS otherwise! (The waiver doesn't cost anything extra.) Exception being if it's entirely in your mom's name....

I think your girl's playing games and stringing you along so she can have her cake and eat it, too. Leaving will be good for you, not for her. She's going to try to get back with you, lay heavy guilt trips on you, and claim she's doing better. Be prepared for it!


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Yea, the house isn't gonna be in my name.........unless there is a divorce. It will stay in my mom's name if we stay married, and i'll pay the mortgage like im renting the place from her.

I'm very confused about this MC appt. Part of me is glad she's going, but part of me says its a waste of time as she's said getting worse not better. She's very depressed, lost, and empty. She says her IC has actually made things worse for her. I have no idea what to do but its my IC/MC so I'm going either way. I hope my therapist challenges her a little bit, and can see thru/what she might be going thru. She cant make me feel any worse than the abandonment I did to the marriage the last year or two with my own depression. Being honest with myself, and seeing my mistakes and faults in the marriage are brutal self awareness.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

btw..........one of my kids told her about my mom's offer for the house. You have to understand, her and her family have money, they don't need my cheesy small house as they own several hundred places. I've just never considered any of that mine, and spent my life trying to carve my own path in life. She always appreciated that about me..........no free rides.

She has some property that she went in with her dad on, I never signed off on any of it, and i'll be honest I wouldn't go after it as i'd rather have an amicable split and just move on for myself. I don't want to be some vindictive, bitter husband that causes more pain just for the sake of fighting for pennies and/or revenge. But I don't want to be her friend either if it does indeed end.


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## TryingandFrustrated (Nov 7, 2012)

Thumper said:


> As I sat disillusioned at therapy today, I came to a strange conclusion. All they want to talk about it being about "me", and "self". Maybe that's what I take issue with, what after all is wrong with it being about "us" and "we", with some "me" sprinkled in. Isn't that exactly what marriage is supposed to be about? Making a decision that you want to "share" life with someone, not live it alone in the first place. I guess it comes down to being honest and open with that someone that keeps that door open. At this point, we've both managing to close that door, thru our growing abilities to make it about "me". Maybe you've even closed the door, locked it, and throw the key away hoping to never find it again. Its really too bad, that we've let it come down to this. I guess the "regret" will be different for us on different levels, but the regret will still be there.


Wow! That paragraph just opened up a whole level of feelings I've been having for quite some time. I've been in MC with my wife for a year now and our counselor seems to be making it about ourselves and not about "us". Telling us we can't be happy together if we aren't happy as individuals. It has been making it extremely difficult for us to come back together as a married couple because she actually believes this. I keep asking isn't this supposed to be about us and our marriage and not about you and me as ONLY individuals?

Good luck in whichever path you find yourself going down.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Every day a person stays in a failed marriage is just one day closer to being dead inside.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Do u mean her or me? I dont think its dead, but its on life support and def in need of an organ transplant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Meeting went pretty well actually. We didnt get answers, but we got some issues resolved, and some others came up. So early in the game, must remember baby steps. It went well enoght that a 2nd meeting got scheduled next week. Wasnt afraid to speak my mind, and either was shw, without any arguments. We even had an ok chat on the way home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

This seems to be more of a journal for me now so:


My wife really took to heart some of the discussion with my IC, now our MC made during the meeting. My MC said she needed to get out of town for the weekend and figure out exactly what her goal is going to be. That the previous advice by her own IC therapist was just letting her go with no direction, thus no result was making her happy. My wife decided to visit her best friend for the weekend and think about what she wanted.

After arriving, she rented a car, and visited all the places we lived and where are children were born, took pictures, and it gave her a reminder of who she is. Now I don't know exactly what that means at this point. But I do know she needs to find herself again first, before she cant find anything else.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Patience...

What do you have to lose? 

It sucks living in limbo, but at least there is a chance she'll wake up. 

BTW. Do you feel convinced there is no one else now?


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Well, in all honesty I never thought there was anyone else, but was convinced thru this process there HAD to be. I could just never find anything, but her unhappiness. Don't we all think that our SO is incapable of that kind of act thou.

The only thing worse than limbo, im thinking, is divorce, so your right what have I got to lose.

Whats the old saying patience is a virt.................u know it.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

Sounds like she is depressed.

There's no "finding yourself", you are who you are. Usually when people say they want to "find themselves" that means find themselves with someone else. Just because you didn't find her in an A doesn't mean she doesn't think about one.

Limbo is only going to hurt you and benefit her. At least if you start to D you are taking action even if you never finalize it. If you wait for her to make a decision you'll be waiting forever. 

Nothing will change until you change. Stop trying to fix this, it seems like you just make thing worse.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

So my wife calls me today, says she needs to say 3 things to me. 


1. that she misses me
2. she cant wait to get to our MC appt. wed.
3. she wants to visit her dr. and have herself checked

She hasn't said she misses me in over 4 months. She didn't want to go to MC in the first place (but felt my Dr. reached her in one appt. that her therapist couldn't do in 12 visits). Thank goodness I did WAY more research when selecting a new person to talk to. -was my fourth person to talk to). And, finally that she gets checked out by a obgyn, think she might be hitting early stages of menopause.

The way I see it, I couldn't ask for 3 more things positive if I got to write the list myself. Now I just need to stay patient, stay on course, and not make this about me or her. Baby steps.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Manipulation. Sorry.


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## JustHer (Mar 12, 2013)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Manipulation. Sorry.




Well, I think this could be good. Don't know how old your wife is but I started perimenopause around 42, some go through it earlier and some later. All I know is that it did a reall number on me, could very well be adding to your wifes confussion.

So what did you decide to do about the job situation? Did you move out? Are you still doing the 180?


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

She just turned 40 a couple of months ago, combined with the fact our daughter was struggling to get thru high school (she did in fact NOT graduate this week) has really put an emotional strain on EVERYTHING.

Even my FIL thinks she's going thru a MLC. I took the local job, for the sake of the not having to tear up the kids lives anymore. I'm still in the house, since our MC appt. last week, things been much easier cause my wife is finally starting to accept some of the blame in our marriage. It finally let me off the hook in the blame game. She told the MC that I was a fantastic father, and actually a very good husband too, finally some acknowledgement-but I kept quiet.

I'm still doing the 180, and its helped me on the personal side SO much. I never thought I was a bad father, despite some of her early comments, but my kids and I are enjoying each other even more than before.

I don't have any mis-preconceptions, I know this is still early, very early. And im not gonna buy in to the R theory. With how she's been, she could call me Charles manson tomorrow. I'm keeping my walls up, but admit that i'm now looking forward to the MC meeting myself, just to guage how I handle responses.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

I am hopeful


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

journal:

So yesterdays MC appt. was a little strange, I admit I was going in a little upbeat and happy. That changed quickly as the first 15 mins I was totally on the defensive again. Seemed like every sentence she used the word "punish". It got to the point that finally the MC, told my wife, "Ok we need to change that word, it seems like your going out of your way to be hurtful, and haven't said one positive thing since you walked in". My wife then admitted she didn't know where that was coming from, that she and I had just spend the last 3-4 days together and things really seemed good to her.

I just took it like she put her wall back up so she didn't have to admit things really could be repaired. The moving bar syndrome, she says whats wrong, I address issue, then theres a new issue, over and over. Basically that she just doesn't/cant figure out what she wants.

So anyways, the kids were out of the house, I took us out to dinner, and we came home, and a real good talk. We both, at least I think, felt a little bit better. I've been trying to NOT talk about the relationship lately unless were in front of the MC. Anyways, all of a sudden she's like well I need to commit to getting this fixed one way or the other. Maybe you should just start sleeping back in bed, we start acting like a couple again, I don't want to go out with my friends anymore, im tired of trying to make everyone else happy at the expense of my husband and kids. I know I will never find anyone that loves me more than you/kids. 

She takes her clothes off, we haven't been intimate in 5 months, and says maybe we just need to start here, and see how it goes???? I admit I was a bit hurt, and at the same time stunned but willing. I told her I don't think either of us was ready quite yet, which started a 45 minute fight about having sex. She kept making me feel guilty that now I wasn't commiting to the marriage. Then before I realize it were ML, and im looking at this stranger that used to be my wife. She was shaved now 
(very weird), felt different to me, acted different to me, and I felt like I was having some kind of outter body experience. I feel like it damaged us more, not helped. She said I needed to come lay in bed with her now, or she'd just feel like a "*****". GULP, I said im your husband, why would you feel like a ***** now?? I shocked me, and scared me to the point, I have no idea if I can even be in the same room as this stranger anymore. 

The WAW thing is brutal to deal with, and I know its only been 5 months, but can I keep up with this. Detach, get sucked in, Detach get sucked back in. Our MC says things are on the right path, but we haven't even decided on a path, so how could we be on the right one. I asked for her to go to MC, so that we could either work on the marriage, or figure out how to be more amicable in a divorce. I'm ready for either at this point, im tired, my kids are tired, our family's are tired, but my wife still wants to have "fun, and just laugh while she's out" but also wants to sit home 5 days a week and watch tv. If I was out of the house, it would be so much easier to Detach and stay detached, this in-house stuff is BRUTAL


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

If you haven't been intimate in 5 months, kind of makes you wonder who she was shaving for...


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

I didn't want to go there, but obviously its not something you can prevent your mind from wondering of course.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Thumper my two cents for what it's worth (you helped me so I desperately want to help you) although I'm certainly not qualified, other than I get little depressive episodes once in a while that have not been good for my marriage and I have 20 years in too - so here goes -

Trust your gut. Put less credence on counselors, TAM, MMSL, etc. Go with your instincts. Open up to her. Come from a place of vulnerability instead of anger and defensiveness. You're spending a lot of time protecting yourself it seems, instead of opening up to her and letting her in. That part could be me projecting my stuff and what has worked for me, but it has worked. But at least go with your instincts, not what other people say. That helped me tremendously and was a weight off my shoulders. 

KEEP COMMUNICATING with her. The biggest thing I've done in my marriage, the biggest bang for my buck, was to start talking with her every day at least twice about what is going on in our lives (not about our relationship but everything else). Especially about things we agreed upon, like what a **** somebody was at a party or whatever. Yes "girlfriends" type of stuff. I know everyone says don't do that, but guess what it worked like a charm for me. We now sometimes spend hours talking, staying up late talking, like we did when we first met 20 years ago. And still having regular sex. So not everyone is right just because it's unanimous or written in a book. Trust your gut. Me and her talking all the time together, every day, about everything in our lives brought us both together like nothing else. I still kick myself for taking this long to figure out such an easy thing. 

I hope that helps. I cherish my 20 years and I know you two do also. We've spent our entire adult lives together. We will never find another person that can have that kind of deep bond so don't give up. And I know we can be the person we want and need if we just keep trying together. Your wife has clearly not given up so don't question her motives for not giving up - she's not giving up! Neither are you, so let your defenses down and tell her you are feeling vulnerable and afraid to let your defenses down because you care so damn much about her it would destroy you if you lost her. 

That's the vibe I'm getting from you but I could be wrong so go with your own gut is the best I have to say. Actually I'll qualify that - go with your heart. Don't go with your hurt and your anger and defensiveness. Expose your vulnerable side, but don't lose yourself in it. It's a delicate balance but I think she needs to know it's there.


As for sex, she probably was shaved because it made her feel sexy and different as she was going through her time of confusion. She was protecting herself in the case that you divorced her and left her single she needed to feel like she could still be sexy instead of desperate and frumpy. Don't read too much into it. She's still trying to be with you. Sex is going to be awkward until you feel emotionally comfortable with each other again. Next time try just laying in bed naked next to each other lightly caressing each other, talking it out and keeping it light. Open up your vulnerability. Talk about how it feels weird because it's been so long, how you've missed it, how much you love her and are dedicated to being her man. It's not the time to be Mr. Macho man there's already too much distance, you need connection not an alpha pounding. It still won't be that great but at least it will happen, which makes it easier the next time and so on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Thanks for the support and advice JT. It's very hard dealing with a woman who's disconnected from what she sees as years of neglectful emotional support. When I feel she's in a good mood. We talk and have good times. The problem is she can flip on a dime, and those are the Times I need to back off and give time and space. I'm doing my mixed up version of the 180 still. My MC said it's a fine line having to walk a full 180, but still showing support cause of the neglect in her mind already. We'll get it figured out one way or the other eventually.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Journal:

She now says she doesn't want any more counseling (MC OR IC). She's staying and will just deal with her emotions (not the marriage I was hoping for). Says she will never put people thru what she or everyone had to deal with again. 

Trying to validate that in any fashion is almost impossible. Tried to let her know I thought she was just doing further damage if we didn't finish getting the issues out, so we could learn how to deal with them properly. For now, im just gonna shut up and hope she comes to her own conclusion. Wont be much of a marriage if only one of us is being honest with their emotions.

Hope she comes out of this fog soon, its been tough on the kids as well as me.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Thumper said:


> Heck with the financial restrictions I'm under. AND the fact I'm weak and don't seem to know what I'm doing lately cause of money.
> 
> So my 70 year old mother, not in great health, calls me yesterday and tells me she can't take it with her, is giving me 20% for a down payment on a house. I just need to find the house now. This was just what I needed mentally. I got very excited driving around looking at places today.
> 
> I'll try to better update tonight, doing this from my kids kindle is to hard.


Your mom kicks ass. But, make sure she isn't being fatalistic and won't need the money before you accept her offer. Or, at least, find a way of building a reserve to help her out if need be.

I'd stay in town if I could manage it. I think the kids would benefit from the stability. And, if you two aren't even discussing it in front of the kids, wouldn't it be nice to stay close to her so she can drop in once in a while be and be involved in the kids' lives?


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Thumper said:


> Journal:
> 
> She now says she doesn't want any more counseling (MC OR IC). She's staying and will just deal with her emotions (not the marriage I was hoping for). Says she will never put people thru what she or everyone had to deal with again.
> 
> ...


I think you are making progress. Let us hope it continues.

Best wishes for the future


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

DTO said:


> Your mom kicks ass. But, make sure she isn't being fatalistic and won't need the money before you accept her offer. Or, at least, find a way of building a reserve to help her out if need be.


She actually is trying to tell me she owes it to me, I've completely rebuilt her 4 bedroom house. New siding, redid all 3 bathrooms/kitchen, all new doors/windows, roof, completely new concrete patio/sidewalks/driveways, and done about 25k worth of landscaping on a pretty good size lot over the years. But isn't that the stuff your supposed to do for your mom. She's already put that house in my name, just so we wont have to fight anything in the future as far as taxes and stuff. My sister passed away last year, making most of that moot now anyways.


TTBB, thx again.
Some days it feels like progress, other days its like im watching her slowly die inside. Affection is almost non-existant still, and not pushing that for now seems to be the way to go. Patience doesn't begin to cover how slow the process is, but its the only real option right now.


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