# Conflicted, Confused and Crushed.....this is a long one



## mike06 (Jan 3, 2013)

I'll give a little background of the relationship here and address both of out faults in the breakup and why this is not so cut and dry......its complicated. I am seeking some advise as my feelings are to fight like hell to get the love of my life back. 

We me through a mutual acquaintance she was romantically seeing, of whom had a girlfriend at the time and she didnt know that. Anyways after a few months we saw each other occasionally and she claimed that she wasnt talking with this acquaintance anymore. We began to see each other socially and we began to have feelings for one another. After one night out, she abruptly left and went to go see him. I was crushed because I had feelings for her and she appeared to also. Well, within a week she found out about his girlfriend and began calling again. I felt like the fall guy but she put up a convincing argument, apologized, and I got over it as we didnt really have a relationship at that point and began dating shortly after that. I was introduced to her family and friends quickly and she made it very obvious to them and me that she had very strong feelings for me. It's like we literally fell in love instantly with one another. We were extremely passionate towards one another, talked non stop throughout the day and spent almost every night together. Very quickly we both started talking about our future together and often times talked about marriage and growing old together. Within about 7 months we were moving in together and the day after we moved in, found out that we were pregnant with our beautiful daughter. 

So the downs were that when we got into arguments, those were very passionate as well. We are both thick headed and do not back down from anyone. As you can imagine that makes for a pretty intense situation. They were not too often but were screaming matches going back and forth. As quickly as they started, they would stop and it was like nothing had happened the next minute. It was just that depth of love that I and she felt that made it so that we could not stay upset for long. 

As time passed, they became more frequent. Much of my fault lies in my apprehension of having enough money to support our child, unhappiness with my job, which led to several unsuccessful new careers and even to this day that is still true. I was controlling of what little finances we had and have to admit that I did not show her back the type of unconditional love that she showed me. I put what seemed to be and unbearable amount of problems at the time and in retrospect were only a few as my primary concern and concentrated on that more than her. Just 2 months ago she explained how she wanted to get married after we got our taxes back and didnt care about money and just wanted to be with me for the rest of her life. I under appreciated her and took the good things in my life for granted and often time said that there was nothing good happening.......I was very depressed! So I would say I acted this way for about 2 years until the break up. 

For her side, I often times felt unappreciated also. She would ask "what do you do around here", you work too much, your never around, but the fact is, I just had a full time job trying to pay the bills. 40-50 hours a week was all it was. As the fights grew in intensity and frequency she began hitting me and throwing things at me which was devastating to me. It seemed like I was supposed to read her mind as she was quick to lash out if I didnt do even a simple task just like she would have. I always felt like I was having to defend myself for everything I did. 

Our fights would result in short breakups,probably 5 throughout our relationshipwith me or her moving out for a week or 2. Several times though I would right away call an old girlfriend or another girl, which led to nothing but she found it and was understandable upset. 

The final breakup was the first day of December. We fought again about finances. She said she was moving into her parents and made arrangements. Before she moved though, I found her talking to a couple other guys through facebook and would leave it up almost for me to find. The big one though was that I found she was talking through text to someone we both know the day after we broke up. It was like 60-70 texts a day and into 2-3 am. She claimed it was just talking but I though differently. Within 3 days she was kicked out of her parents house and back into mine. A complete break down and trip to the hospital for me followed. She was there for me and offered up that she told him she couldnt talk to this guy anymore. The following week, she left her phone right by me and he sent a text. I looked and found she was talking to him the whole time since we broke up and volunteered the lie to me at one of my weakest points. I felt the same deception from when we first started seeing each other as I described earlier. Its like dejavu for me. A huge fight followed a couple days later when I said I was going to move out. She got physical with me again and claimed that she was having alot of fun with this new guy. In response i let her know that I cheated on her about 5 months into the relationship. She didnt ask about that again until a week later and I did come clean and admit it as she thought I said that out of anger to hurt her. She said that now there was no chance of us getting back together. We still live together with our daughter but sleep in separate rooms and maintain some contact. 

Most of whats transpired I can see is my fault. I think I've painted an uglier picture of myself here. In past breakups shes said that it hurt her that I didnt fight to get back with her. It made her feel like I didnt care. Shes the type to keep saying its over until she comes around and I fall right back to her without question. I dont like to play the mind games so when she said its over get out, I would try for a short while but would respect her wishes in the end. 

I have had a month to do some soul searching, admit my faults to her and begin to change how I act. I have controlled my temper when she grows angry with me and I have assumed all the responsibilities in the house because she has really stopped doing anything at all. She started school right after we broke up and often times doesnt come home until midnight after school and is always saying shes is with the same friend.....i think shes with this guy she started talking to. Our lease is up in 6 months and I already see her looking for apartments. Also we split free time on weekends but she will come home very late, 4 or 5 am. 
Because I am doing all the work around the house I feel like Im being used so she can finish school and after our lease is done she will just bolt and financially I still offer the same support as before. I keep thinking that I need to not be selfish and this is helping her even though it may be hurting me despite what is going on right now. 

I could just move on and assume she is with this other guy and say oh well the relationship is done but I keep thinking that "I didnt fight for her before when we broke up" as shes told me. Do I keep doing all the work around the house and keep trying to show her that I am changing and I want to be with her? The fact is that now that I have been able to see what wrong I have done, I feel very bad and guilty. I want more than anything to prove that I am changing and will be a stand up guy for her and for the rest of her life. If so, how long to I keep doing that before I realize that its for nothing and I've done too much for her to want to be with me? I know she still loves me and shes said it but not in weeks. Like before she gives little hope that we will be back together even though in the past we did. I feel like this is the final test and I must put in the effort to make things work. This is different though as she never stayed out until 4 am and never spoke to another guy that I know of. Its been toxic at times but I think the good outweigh the bad now that I can finally admit my faults, I know I can be better but she hasnt claimed any fault to date which is a concern as the blame was ALWAYS put on me for every fight, the same with this one.....Sorry this is so long but I had to present both sides so you have a clear picture of the situation. Thanks!


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## sharkeey (Apr 27, 2012)

mike06 said:


> Our fights would result in short breakups,probably 5 throughout our relationshipwith me or her moving out for a week or 2. Several times though I would right away call an old girlfriend or another girl


You'd have an argument, and immediately you'd call another girl.

Why?


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## mike06 (Jan 3, 2013)

Probably insecurity really. As I stated, you would not call these arguments, all out fights resulting in one of us leaving and any call made was after either of us had left the home during the breakup. At that point the relationship was done but not for long..doesnt excuse it but thats why


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

She's a Mother of a young child staying out until 4:00 or 5:00am?

Your household has way too much drama for your daughter. Physical abuse, cheating on both sides, constant fighting, etc.

It sounds like she found someone else. You are not married. Let her go be with her boyfriend. You can't really stop her. You can tell her how much you love her & try to fight for her but it may be too late.


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## mike06 (Jan 3, 2013)

Yes the drama is too much for a 2yr old. The main reason for the breakup she says is so that our daughter is not exposed to the fighting, but she moved back in and is still here. So what is that going to accomplish? 

Things are the same only we arent intimiate any more. Does this sound like she is being selfish because its convenient for her and she can see other people now without having to change her life much at all?


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

mike06 said:


> Yes the drama is too much for a 2yr old. The main reason for the breakup she says is so that our daughter is not exposed to the fighting, but she moved back in and is still here. So what is that going to accomplish?
> 
> Things are the same only we arent intimiate any more. Does this sound like she is being selfish because its convenient for her and she can see other people now without having to change her life much at all?


Are you finanically supporting her? Does she work?

So now no sex or intimacy?

Are you roommates who co-parent?

Is that working for you?


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## mike06 (Jan 3, 2013)

Yes, she collects unemployment while going to school. Within days her money is spent so my income covers all the bills and my expenses. I am providing her with some money as she runs out very quickly putting me behind and short on cash. 

No intimacy at all.

Yes roommates now who co-parent but I feel I am pulling all the weight. She does literally nothing while I am at work to keep up the house leaving that burden for me. If I dont do it, it will not get done.......oh she did do 1 load of laundry over the past month and it was only her clothes.

No it is not working out for me but seems to be just fine for her. She does nothing she NEEDS to do, only what she WANTS to do at this point. 

When I said I was going to move out about 2 weeks ago, it was WWIII and she lost it on me. Always claiming that I will only see my daughter every other weekend when fights arise so I feel trapped because I could not handle only seeing her 4 days a month. I am willing to a point to put up with this to be with my daughter everyday still but it is getting very hard and wearing me down emotionally and physically.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> Shes the type to keep saying its over until she comes around and I fall right back to her without question.


Mike, what does "she comes around" mean? After pushing you away, does she eventually come back acting so loving and caring that she sucks you back into the relationship? I ask because, given that she loves drama and already has had 5 breakups with you, I can't help but wonder whether she is creating an endless cycle of push-you-away and pull-you-back. If so, that is a big red flag. It also would be helpful to know whether she had a difficult childhood, e.g., abuse or abandonment before age 5.


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## mike06 (Jan 3, 2013)

Meaning that after her anger subsides she stops pushing me away and saying the relationship is over. She does warm up to me, becomes loving, expresses how much she misses being with me and wants to work things out and be together. At that point I feel the same way. Its that classic break up, make up feeling where your overwhelmed with love and missing that person, then feeling like things are perfect again after we make up. 

Yes we actually come from similar households which was filled with alot of fighting between parents, emotional abuse and some physical abuse towards us. Both of us moved out when we were 18 yrs old. To this day we do not speak with either of our parents. 

I am just incredibly torn because i am thinking that she said I never was the one who reached out to her first after a break up and "fight" to tried to work things out (this made her feel unloved as she has told me). It was always her making the first attempt to reconcile, so I am doing that now despite her attempts to push me away and say things are done for good. There is true undying love between us before this happened and I do not want to let this go without giving it an honest attempt to show that I can do the things she needs to feel that i truly love her.....

She hasnt changed her tone though throughout the past month and I am wondering if she is seeing if i am changed and will fight for her to prove that I do love her or if things are really done. There are many problems in our relationship that can be fixed with time and effort, but with this woman there is a bond we have that is just like nothing else i or her have ever know.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

mike06 said:


> We actually come from similar households which was filled with alot of fighting between parents, emotional abuse and some physical abuse towards us....To this day we do not speak with either of our parents.


Mike, most abused children grow up without developing a personality disorder (PD). Such abuse, however, greatly raises one's risk for doing so. I therefore consider it a big red flag that your GF has physically abused you several times (hitting you and throwing things at you). Significantly a 1994 Canadian study found that half of the spouse batterers it examined had BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder), which my exW has. It also is significant, I believe, that 70% of BPDers report that they were abused or abandoned in childhood.

I therefore suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your daughter are dealing with. I also suggest that, while you are waiting for an appointment, you read about BPD traits so you will know how to spot the red flags.

Although you will not be able to make a diagnosis (only professionals can do that), spotting the warning signs is not difficult. There is nothing subtle about traits such as verbal abuse, temper tantrums, always being "The Victim," and physical abuse. An easy place to start reading is my brief overview of BPD traits in Maybe's thread at My list of hell!. If that description rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to good online resources. Take care, Mike.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

mike06 said:


> Yes, she collects unemployment while going to school. Within days her money is spent so my income covers all the bills and my expenses. I am providing her with some money as she runs out very quickly putting me behind and short on cash.
> 
> No intimacy at all.
> 
> ...


Maybe talk to a lawyer about your parental rights.

Personally, next time she hit me, I would call the police & file a DV charge on her. THAT would not bode well for her in a custody dispute.


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## mike06 (Jan 3, 2013)

@ emerald, yes I have thought about that many times as the physical abuse has happened maybe 10 times over 3.5 years but there is something in me that no matter what does to me, does not want to see her struggle, harmed or sitting in a jail cell. I cant bring myself to do it even though i know if i were to hit her, i would be locked up in a second and really its the right thing to do. I also feel like i could never do anything that would keep her from seeing our daughter. Although she threatens me with not seeing her or rarely seeing her, I have never and would never do that. She is unbelievable with our daughter and it would pain me to know that our daughter may not see her mother because of that.


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## mike06 (Jan 3, 2013)

@ uptown, just about everything i read in that thread matched in your reply! Infact, i asked her if she could talk about some things that have not been addressed today and offered face to face or email. (she has been very closed off and says that every time i try to discuss our living situation that she feels uncomfortable so i am ignored and it is not discussed). She has been very secretive but she doesnt cover up well so I find everything she is looking into or doing without even having to look.


She chose email. I listed things like, when is she planning to move out because I found her searching for apartments. I brought this up so because i need notice so i can find a roommate to finally help with the bills.
-she just said when she gets tax returns and she has a plan and not to worry........didnt answer my question at all!

I asked why she stopped doing anything around the house, creating a mound of dirty dishes, not cleaning up after herself or the baby, not doing any laundry,ect.
-she says its my house so i can keep it up and when she gets her own apartment that she will take care of that........but she still lives here so why does that negate your responsibility?

I know i maybe shouldnt have but i asked if we are free to see other people. As i stated in my post, she began talking with someone the day after we broke up and to this day is still talking and in what i have overheard, she is seeing him when she goes out. This was my attempt to see if she would admit seeing someone else already after i did come clean and admit to cheating early on in the relationship. However she has asked to see my phone over the past week and shows jealousy when she knows another woman is texting or calling me. I said that if it is ok for her to talk to another man and she can admit it (which she refuses to) then why act as if i am in the wrong for having conversations with someone else.
-she ignored this point altogether!

She then went on to say that I was to blame for this whole thing and that she had to put up with me for 4 years and she has just given up on me and the home altogether.

We have been behind on bills for almost 2 years in one way or another. She finds a way though to push off the energy bill and rent but will buy little things everytime she goes out. I have tried to explain that those little things add up and we need to set a budget and stick to it. Our argument that brought on her breaking up with me was exactly about that. She overspent on a very detailed and tight budget we created the day before and within 2 days were completely out of money. When she is angry, she spends with no regard as to how it will effect us. She claims she is always walking on egg shells with me and i am too controlling of the finances....the truth is i have no control at all. 

She also overlooks anything that is good or plays it down and focuses only on the negative. Also in arguments, if she is making a false accusations against me and i dispute and prove her wrong the topic is switched to something else that is putting blame on me (this goes around and around) Her temper goes from 0-100 in an instant. There is no way to end an argument. If I try to leave the house to get out of the situation every time it gets too heated, she will chase after me. She closed the door to the house so i cant leave and has stood infront of my car barring me from leaving most times. I think you really hit the nail on the head.

She is on medication for anxiety and is seeing a therapist (for some time now) but when someone has this point of view and expresses things as the constant victim, how could a medical professional give a thoughout diagnosis or help someone like that. That professional is only hearing one side. We are past the point of couples therapy as I have been totally blocked out of her life to this point. I would love to accept any help or feedback you could offer in this situation. I fell like i am being torn in 2 and absolutely no idea what to do. My heart tells me to do one thing and my head says to do the other. When you are truly in love, it seems decisions are often made with the heart against better judgement. A very hopeless situation, none the less, I still feel the need to try and win her back as i saw us growing old together. I am so torn and maybe fighting a losing batthe, what to do?

Also, please keep in mind i have been very depressed with work and our financial situation for some time. I have allowed that to make me very closed me off, make me unapproachable and i have a great deal of anxiety(which i am also seeing help for now but just recently). The anxiety has caused me to have a temper but it is often times in defense to her wild claims and constant blame. So i see some points she makes as she says she hasnt felt loved by me and very alone for some time. She has tried to get me to talk to her and open up and has always offered help to try and make me feel better. I had ignored every attemp she made so i have alot of guilt right now about that as i feel if i sought help earlier, maybe this wouldnt have gotten to this point....any advise on these feelings i have and how this can play into my need to try an make things right with her even though its painfully obvious shes probably long gone from me.


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## mike06 (Jan 3, 2013)

uptown, as you can see my feelings are very conflicted but more so with trying to win her back and to spend my life with her. In reading the first article on bpdfamily.com, "How a Borderline Personality Disorder Love Relationship Evolves", it again sounds like an exact match to her every action. What could you advise, since it sounds like you were in a similiar situation, that i could do or how to act towards her. Should i just ignore her altogether, offer no support, turn my back to any request she makes even when we are not fighting and getting along? What worked for you to overcome the emotional ties or feelings of love that kept you in your relationship so long and to begin moving on and understanding that this is a person with a problem that i cannot fix no matter how hard i try to make it work? Also this may be imortant to note, that she began to show these traits very frequently when she became pregnant. After the pregnancy i had suggested that she may have postpartum depression as here eratic behavior and mood swings persisted and continued, even becomming more frequent. She listened and agreed that may be an issue but no help was sought bringing us to present day and nothing has changed, its only more frequent.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Mike, thanks for providing that wealth of information. It is very helpful. I am headed to bed now (am on East Coast time) but will respond in the morning with an attempt to answer your questions, to the best of my ability -- and with suggestions for obtaining more BPD information online.


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## mike06 (Jan 3, 2013)

Thank you very much, it is much needed and appreciated. Bpdfamily.com has been a huge help so far in me trying to understand and wrap my head around this. Everything i have read is exactly what i have seen and experienced with this relationship. Very glad you could share here!


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Uptown is your go to guy here.

Not to muddy the waters, but she may also be bipolar. Mood swings & excessive spending during the "manic" phase are symptoms.

I hear that you truly love her & want to make this work. If so, you need to shore up your own mental health. Get yourself back to the doctor for your depression & anxiety. Don't let her issues ruin you emotionally, mentally & financially.

Your daughter needs at the very least one healthy parent.

You have the power to meet your own needs. Do it.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> This may be important to note, that she began to show these traits very frequently when she became pregnant. After the pregnancy i had suggested that she may have postpartum depression as her eratic behavior and mood swings persisted and continued, even becoming more frequent.


Yes, that is important to note. BPD is called a "spectrum disorder" because we all have the traits to some degree. Every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all nine of the BPD traits, albeit at a low level if the person is healthy. These traits become a problem only when they are so strong and persistent that they distort the person's perception of other peoples' intentions -- thereby undermining all close LTRs. 

Significantly, even the healthy adults occasionally have flareups of their BPD traits, with the result that they may behave like BPDers for several months or, in the case of postpartum hormone changes, for as long as two years. If this seems strange, remember that all of us behave like BPDers 24/7 during childhood and continue doing so quite often during our teens (largely as the result of our immaturity and the large hormone changes occurring then). This is why psychologists generally refuse to diagnose BPD in folks younger than 18.

The result is that, if you decide your W has strong BPD traits, it is very important to distinguish between (a) the temporary flareups that can be caused by hormone changes, drug abuse, or -- more rarely -- by a brain tumor or brain injury and (b) permanent damage to her emotional core that occurred in early childhood. This distinction is very important because, whereas the temporary flareups may easily be treated successfully with hormone supplements or other medications, the permanent damage requires many years of intensive therapy which nearly all high-functioning BPDers are loath to do.

An important issue, then, is WHEN your GF's BPD traits started showing themselves at a strong and persistent level. If she is a BPDer (i.e., has strong and persistent traits), they likely would have started in the early teens and would have disappeared only during the time she was infatuated with you -- a period that typically lasts 3 to 6 months. 

Generally, the reason for this disappearance of traits is NOT that she is trying to deceive you. Rather, it is because her infatuation has her convinced that you are the near-perfect man for her. The infatuation therefore holds her two great fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay. This is why it is common for BPDers to be intensely passionate and sexual during that period. They feel safe. Yet, as soon as the infatuation evaporates, the passion and intense sexuality usually go off a cliff.

Usually, distinguishing between a hormone-induced, temporary BPD flareup and the life-long traits is not that difficult. You would simply look for a 6-month honeymoon period followed by years of fighting and verbal abuse. In your case, however, this task is made more difficult by her pregnancy occurring only 7 months into your relationship. 

I therefore suggest you look at the entire 4 year period to see if the traits (i.e., the red flags) were persistent throughout that period. I also suggest you look at her behavior with other BFs and family members before you met her. Also consider whether she has any close long-term friends that live nearby (BPDers usually drive away all friends who have made the mistake of becoming close friends). And, again, I suggest you speak with a psychologist to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your daughter are dealing with.


> There are many problems in our relationship that can be fixed with time and effort.


This outcome is extremely unlikely if your GF has strong and persistent BPD traits. You won't be able to do a thing to fix her issues. Indeed, a team of psychologists won't make a dent in her problems if she is unwilling to work hard in weekly therapy sessions for many years -- an outcome that is highly unlikely to occur.


> It's like we literally fell in love instantly with one another.... With this woman there is a bond we have that is just like nothing else i or her have ever know.


Yes, my exW and I always felt the same way. If your GF is a BPDer, there are two reasons for this intense feeling of having met your "soul mate." One reason is that a BPDer has such a fragile sense of whom she is that she will emulate the very best aspects of your personality -- to the point of even liking the hobbies you enjoy and the people you like to be around. 

Of course, that "mirroring" process greatly diminishes after the infatuation period ends. You nonetheless will forever be left with the strong feeling that, if you can only figure out what YOU are doing wrong, you can somehow restore your GF back to that wonderful soul mate you saw at the beginning.

The other reason for the feeling of an intense bond with her is that both of you almost certainly have very weak personal boundaries. If she is a BPDer, your willingness to live with her verbal and physical abuse for 4 years means you almost certainly have strong codependent traits (i.e., are an excessive caregiver), like I do. Like BPDers, we "codependents" have such low personal boundaries that it is difficult for us to tell where "we" leave off and our loved ones begin. 

The result is that we are so in tune with our loved one's feelings and problems that our happiness becomes highly dependent on the happiness of the loved one. Of course, this is a prescription for disaster when we fall in love with an unhappy woman who will remain that way because she is convinced she always is "The Victim."

I therefore suggest you read some about codependency, e.g., the book _Codependent No More_. The best online article I've seen -- explaining how we become excessive caregivers in our childhood -- is therapist Shari Schreiber's article at DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?. I suggest that, while you are at her website, you also check out the dozen articles she's written about being in a toxic relationship with BPDers.


> She then went on to say that I was to blame for this whole thing and that she had to put up with me for 4 years.


That is to be expected if she is a BPDer. As I mentioned, BPDers are convinced they always are "The Victim" and they will stay with you only as long as you keep "validating" that false self image by taking the blame for every misfortune.


> She overspent on a very detailed and tight budget we created the day before and within 2 days were completely out of money. When she is angry, she spends with no regard as to how it will effect us.


BPDers are prone to binge spending, eating, or drinking because they have weak control over their impulses. This is the way it is when you are living with an unstable woman having the emotional development of a four year old.


> In arguments, if she is making a false accusations against me and i dispute and prove her wrong the topic is switched to something else that is putting blame on me (this goes around and around).


One aspect of the human condition is that, whenever we experience intense feelings, our intellectual judgment goes out the window. This problem is so much worse for BPDers because (a) they experience intense feelings far more frequently, (b) they never learned the skill -- that the rest of us learned in childhood -- of intellectually challenging those feelings, and (c) they so completely split off the logical adult part of their mind (during stress) that they don't have the good sense to refrain from speaking and acting until they have a chance to cool down. 

The result is that they are convinced that their intense feelings MUST be accurate reflections of reality. To a BPDer, then, the feelings constitute self-evident "facts." If this seems hard to believe, remember that the same thing has happened to you hundreds of times. This is why, by the time you were in high school, you already knew you could not trust your own judgment until you had a chance to cool down.


> Her temper goes from 0-100 in an instant.


When a person has been carrying enormous anger and shame inside since early childhood, you don't have to do or say a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to say or do some minor thing that TRIGGERS the anger that is already there.


> There is no way to end an argument. If I try to leave the house to get out of the situation every time it gets too heated, she will chase after me. She closed the door to the house so i cant leave and has stood in front of my car barring me from leaving most times.


Yes, my exW did the same thing. The day she had me arrested, for example, she had been chasing me from room to room until I sought refuge behind one bedroom door. Because it had no lock, she kept opening it to verbally abuse me. Each time, I quietly got up from the computer and calmly shut the door. 

On the fourth door opening, however, she threw the door open quickly, trying to hit me with it. Instead, it missed my head by a few inches and crashed against the wall, causing a loud boom a foot away from my ear. Instinctively, I stepped forward and shoved her away from the door she was trying to destroy. Sadly, she tripped stepping backward and fell down -- hence the "brutality" allegation.

Of course, the logical solution is to remove yourself from such a dangerous situation. My exW, however, always would come up with a credible threat that would result in my staying to hear the abuse. On this occasion, she was threatening that she was going to allow our granddaughter (who was staying in our other bedroom) to go to the beach a hundred miles away by driving our rental car -- for which we had no insurance for such a third party. This threat posed a great risk because my granddaughter had just totaled her parents' car a few weeks earlier. I therefore knew I could lose my life's savings if she got into another accident with a car I had rented.


> She is on medication for anxiety and is seeing a therapist (for some time now) but when someone has this point of view and expresses things as the constant victim, how could a medical professional give a thoughout diagnosis or help someone like that. That professional is only hearing one side.


Yes, Mike, BPD can be difficult to diagnose for that reason. BPDers typically are such good actors that it is a cake walk to hide their dark side once a week in a 50 minute session with a therapist. It therefore can take years for a therapist to see the dysfunctional behaviors you see all week long. And even if the therapists see the BPD traits, they likely won't tell anyone about it -- as I discussed earlier.


> We are past the point of couples therapy as I have been totally blocked out of her life to this point.


Even if you were not blocked out of her life, couples therapy likely would be a total waste of time if she has strong BPD traits. Her issues would go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills. Indeed, teaching a BPDer such skills before she addresses her more serious issues would likely just make her more skillful at manipulating you.


> Also, please keep in mind i have been very depressed ....I have allowed that to make me very closed me off, make me unapproachable and i have a great deal of anxiety....The anxiety has caused me to have a temper but it is often times in defense to her wild claims and constant blame.


When you've been in a toxic relationship for four years, the toxcity is not something that SHE is doing to you. Rather, it is something you BOTH are doing to each other. Her contributions to the toxicity -- e.g., the verbal and physical abuse -- are easy to see. Yours are more difficult to see because, after all, you are "only trying to help" and "do the right thing" for her and your daughter.

Yet, as I noted earlier, you almost certainly have strong aspects of codependency traits like I do. That is, you likely have been harming your GF by enabling her dysfunctional behaviors, i.e., by allowing her to behave like a spoiled, angry child and GET AWAY WITH IT. She will have no incentive to grow up and confront her issues as long as you protect her from suffering the logical consequences of her own actions. Simply stated, men having strong personal boundaries don't stay for four years with a woman who has been verbally and physically abusing them on a regular basis. 

In addition, you may have some other issues caused by the abusive childhood situation you suffered. To sort all that out -- and to find out what your daughter is having to deal with -- it is important to speak with YOUR OWN psychologist, i.e., one who has not seen or treated your GF. Meanwhile, if you feel like you may be going crazy, don't worry about it. That's exactly how most folks feel who've been living with a BPDer for several years. It is a very confusing, disorienting experience to find the "love of your life" and then be told by her, every other week, that you suck as a human being.


> My heart tells me to do one thing and my head says to do the other. When you are truly in love, it seems decisions are often made with the heart against better judgement.


Because I had been in a 15 year relationship, it took me at least a year (and perhaps two) to bring my child's feelings into alignment with my adult's understanding. After just two weeks of intense reading on the Internet, I had a pretty good understanding of what I needed to do to get out of the toxic relationship and why I needed to do it.

Yet, because my child was over a year behind my adult, the child sabotaged my every effort to break away. It hindered me with nagging doubts, terrible guilt, and a strong feeling of obligation. It kept telling me that the theory floating around in the adult part of my mind was an insufficient basis on which to wholly abandon a loved one. Even after I had left her, I still refused to go No Contact for eight more months, at which point I finally realized she is incapable of ever being my friend.


> What worked for you to overcome the emotional ties or feelings of love that kept you in your relationship so long?


As I noted, within two weeks I had an intellectual understanding of what I needed to do (divorce my exW). It nonetheless took a year for my adult logic to drag my "child" -- with him kicking and screaming every inch of the way -- to that shocking truth. How do you accomplish that? How do you teach a child -- who had felt for many years she was my best friend -- that she never had that capability?

To bring the child and adult into alignment, what helped me _a little_ was talking about my new found knowledge to anyone who would listen. Well, that was good for a week. Then their eyes glazed over. So what helped _the most_ was coming to public forums like TAM and BPDfamily where I could discuss it with people who had been there, done that. Significantly, that helped my mind to associate feelings with each of the intellectual thoughts. That has to be done because the child learns primarily from emotional experiences.

Writing and talking will help you internalize the information, turning knowledge into wisdom -- by connecting thoughts to feelings. If you doubt that, simply ask any university professor about its effectiveness. They will quickly tell you they never had an intuitive, deep-level understanding of their subject matter until they had to teach it to someone else -- or had to write it down very precisely when doing research. 

Hence, what I found most helpful, Mike, is talking about it to anyone who listens and writing about it to anyone who writes back. Whether this will help you a lot is something I can't know. There is more than one path to healing and different people will do better on different paths. I therefore am only telling you what worked well for me.


> I still feel the need to try and win her back as i saw us growing old together. I am so torn and maybe fighting a losing battle, what to do?


Yes, letting go of that dream is painful. Moreover, for us caregivers, the notion of walking away from a sick loved one is anathema -- even when that is exactly what we should do. Don't be surprised, then, if your "letting go" becomes a process, not an event.


> Should i just ignore her altogether, offer no support, turn my back to any request she makes even when we are not fighting and getting along?


Those actions are not even options, given that you two likely will be sharing custody of your daughter.


> I fell like i am being torn in 2 and absolutely no idea what to do.


Most likely, you will have a good intellectual understanding of what you need to do in a few weeks -- a process that should be augmented by seeking candid advice from professionals (a psychologist and custody attorney). 

That is the EASY part. What is HARD is transforming that new-found knowledge into wisdom, i.e., feeling it to be true at a gut level so you are prepared to act on it. As I said, it can take months to close the gap between your thoughts and your feelings.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Emerald said:


> She may also be bipolar. Mood swings & excessive spending during the "manic" phase are symptoms.


I agree, Emerald. A recent study of nearly 35,000 American adults (pub. 2008) found that a fourth of the women having BPD had also exhibited bipolar-1 traits in the previous 12-month period.

Mike, if you are interested, I describe 12 differences I've seen between bipolar-1 traits and BPD traits at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/anxiety-depression-relationships/59344-confused.html#post1175425. I am not a psychologist. That description is based on my experiences when living with a BPDer exW and bipolar-1 foster son.


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## mike06 (Jan 3, 2013)

Wow, the information you have provided is invaluable at this point uptown and emeral! I am retracing every instance that I can think of and comparing that to what you have said and information from bpdfamily.com that I am reading. Scary and bringing things into perspective at the same time. I have been wondering why there are so many double standards with her and in reading that they very often times "make the rules, and then break the rules" things are starting to sink in and making sense. Before I wrote this post, I was completely lost in this situation and feeling very helpless to say the least. That gives me piece of mind and allows me to stop feeling that I was at fault for a great deal. Still though I am so deeply sadened that she fits every single warning sign or trait for this disease. It is hard for me to know that she is such a beautiful person, inside and out, that I truly had an undying love for her but also that there is a side to her that I have seen all too much but did not fully understand until this point  

Very sad though that this has happened and to you yourself uptown. It is very difficult at this point to comprehend that everything good in the relationship at this point could be described as an illusion to the inevitable truth that I now know. 

With what you have helped me with thus far, I cannot thank you enough and I will continue to research and now focus on fixing my own issues and do everything in my power to make sure that she gets the help that she needs.....after all, with a daughter in common, this is a person that I will see for the rest of my life and her personal well being is truly important to me. There are different forms of love and the type I have felt up to this point must change but not disappear altogether to make sure that she is well at some point. 

Again, thank you so much from the bottom of my heart. You did not have to offer any words on this and I feel it is a blessing that you did. I wish there was something I could do to repay you. Not only will this help me but her as well, as now I can hopefully find a way to see her get better. This will definately help me to begin getting past and move on from this experience and help me for the rest of my life to ensure that I will not put myself in the same type of situation and to find a healty and happy relationship with someone down the road


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

mike06 said:


> It is very difficult at this point to comprehend that everything good in the relationship at this point could be described as an illusion.


Mike, it would be a mistake to think of all the good as being an illusion or somehow fake. BPDers typically are capable of truly loving you, albeit in the immature way that young children love. During the honeymoon period, for example, she likely was so infatuated with you that she genuinely meant the things she said. Granted, the mirroring of your personality was an illusion in the sense that she was not showing true aspects of her personality. 

This is not to say, however, that the mirroring was intended to deceive you. Instead, it is simply the way she has been behaving since childhood in order to fit in, be accepted, and be loved. This is what people have to do to survive when they don't have a strong sense of whom they are.

Likewise, she likely is being genuine in expressing her feelings when she is raging at you. During those moments, she may even hate you. Significantly, this display of hatred does NOT mean her expressions of love at other times is fake. Rather, it only means that she is too emotionally immature to tolerate being in touch with two opposing sets of feelings (love and hate) at the same time. She cannot tolerate ambiguities and uncertainties. She therefore "splits off" the opposing set of feelings, putting it out of touch of her conscious mind.

Hence, to say it all is "an illusion" is the same thing as saying that your young daughter's behaviors are an illusion. In childhood, we ALL behave like BPDers 24/7, which is why we adore Daddy when he is playing with us but -- in a few seconds -- can absolutely hate Daddy when he puts the toy away. If your GF is a BPDer, she behaves that same way because, being frozen emotionally at the level of a four year old, her ego defenses are limited to those primitive defenses that young children use (e.g., projection, B-W thinking, and denial). Although those behaviors are dysfunctional and fragmented, there is nothing "illusory" or "fake" about it.

I'm glad to hear that you found the BPD information useful, Mike. If you have time, please come back occasionally to give us an update on your progress. Take care, Mike.


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## mike06 (Jan 3, 2013)

Yes I will, maybe illusion was a bad descriptive word. I think it is more of a helpless feeling and great sense of loss. Rather than illusion, just a feeling that "this cant be real" despite the fact that it is. I understand what you say as my daughter just turned 2 a few months ago so I can see that correlation between emotional the changes.

One aspect that is very troubling for me aside from what I would call her direct behavior is her indirect behavior. Specifically that the day after she ended the relationship, she was in constant contact with another man and is now "dating" him as she says. However she still claims to only be talking to him and has only seen him 1 time over the past month. She is very secretive about it but at the same time makes her actions and that she is doing this very obvious for me to see. Like she is trying to hide it and not at the same time.

My difficulty is that she literally did a 180 within 24 hrs and seems to be very infactuated with him and in no way with me at all. The suddeness and the fact that she is very consumed by this relationship(constantly on the phone, returning text messages immediately or looking at her phone until a response comes in) and has turned me off completely is very troubling. Is this very common that they turn off one person (boy/girlfriend) and turn on to another that quickly? From what you have said and I have been reading, it appears that the cycle is starting over and she is going into the infactuation stage right away to replace what she feels she was lacking with me or her need to have that man in her life that she idolizes or puts on the pedestal. 

A second part to this is that she continues to say that there is nothing intimate about their relastionship. Very late weekend nights and somewhat late weekday nights(which she was usually ready for bed around 10-11 pm most times before this) would indicate that something intimate is going on (as they say, nothing good happens after 2am lol). There is really no way for me to know for certain, but in knowing how passionate and sexual she was with me when we started dating coupled with the fact that she seems to be downplaying their relationship tells me that there is lack to truth to what she says. Keep in mind in my original story that she was with someone that had a girlfriend and when she found out was with me immediatley. Why would she try to downplay this or not be truthful taking into consideration that she was the one that ended things and claims that she does not care about my feelings anymore and has given up on our situation. Today there was an argument in the morning and she said that they were dating, the subject came up again later on and then she said that they only talk through texting and that she has only been around him 1 time since our break up......kind of like one extreme to the next if that makes sense ...what are your thoughts?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

mike06 said:


> Is this very common that they turn off one person (boy/girlfriend) and turn on to another that quickly?


Yes, that is common. It usually is due to triangulation or preemptive abandonment. Triangulation occurs when a BPDer plays off one person (whom she is splitting white) against the other (whom she is splitting black). Once she manages to attract and hold the first person, she reverses the splitting so that the white guy is now black and vice versa. It is common for BPDers to do this with BFs or even with their spouse and children. It is their way of coping with their great fear of being abandoned. 

My BPDer exW, for example, was jealous of the closeness I had with my step-children, which drew my time away from her. And she apparently felt threatened by the affection that they had for me. She therefore would sometimes split me black for weeks, telling her kids awful things about me. Weeks later, however, she would be splitting me white and telling me awful things about her kids.

Preemptive abandonment occurs when the BPDer's fear of abandonment is so great that she ends the relationship to stop the pain and prevent the BF from abandoning her first. This is one reason that it is common for BPDer relationships to break up multiple times before finally ending. A survey at BPDfamily, for example, found that 72% of such relationships had 3 or more breakups before ending -- and 33% had 6 or more breakups. See PERSPECTIVES: Relationship recycling [romantic partners].


> From what you have said and I have been reading, it appears that the cycle is starting over and she is going into the infatuation stage right away to replace what she feels she was lacking with me or her need to have that man in her life that she idolizes or puts on the pedestal.


Perhaps so. If she has split you black permanently, a BPDer will quickly replace you because, as you know, BPDers hate to be alone.


> Why would she try to downplay this or not be truthful taking into consideration that she was the one that ended things and claims that she does not care about my feelings anymore and has given up on our situation?


I don't know what she is thinking about the OM. But why would it matter? If she is a BPDer, she has the emotional development of a four year old and is unstable. This means that anything she desperately wants/believes today will likely change very soon, as soon as her infatuation over him evaporates. Then he will get the hot/cold and black-white treatment just like you did. 

With BPDers, it is impossible to build up a lasting store of good will on which you can later draw during the hard times. Their reality is whatever intense feelings they are experiencing at the moment. It therefore is futile to spend a lot of time teasing apart what they've said to deduce an underlying meaning. By the time you make such a deduction, they likely will have changed their minds anyway.


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## mike06 (Jan 3, 2013)

Yes, that all makes sense. I am still forgetting to realize that an adult woman can have the emotional level of a 4yr old. Quite alot to absorb within the past couple of days. I thank you again and will update when possible. Good luck to you and take care uptown!


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## mike06 (Jan 3, 2013)

So here's an update to this wonderful situation that we have been discussing. First, Uptown, you were right on as it has been several weeks and things are more clear than they were the last time I had posted. I am confused by her actions as I will list what I have seen and experienced over the past couple weeks.

About a week after my last post, she and I were in an verbal argument and once again it got physical as she choked me 2 times and left bruising on my neck. I did not file a report right away, but the following day we argued again when she heard me talking with another woman on the phone and she became very angry with me saying that its not right that I do that with her in the home....keep in mind she has been and still is texting, talking to and occasionally seeing the same man from the day after she broke up with me while I was in the home. Later that night as I got home from a friends and had a few beers, I began texting her to avoid face to face confrontation and said that I was really pissed that she can show anger to me for what I did and how does that excuse or is any different from what she had been doing all along. She left, took our daughter and moved into her brothers house where she stayed until this past Monday. That night I also FINALLY filed a report for the assault that happened the night before. A side note, she tells me and everyone she knows that I kicked her and my daughter out, which is not the case at all, as she left.

This past Monday, we discussed her moving in and us separate nights in the home so our daughter can stay in the house full time. This is working out much better for our daughter, only we still argure but on the phone now instead of in person. On this past Tuesday, she found out that another woman I know had spent the night over this past Sunday and when asked, I said what had happened and was truthful. SHE LOST HER MIND! Claiming that it was the most disrespectful thing I could have done and how low and horrible of a person I am......again, we have been broken up for almost 2 months now, shes having some sort of relationship with this other man which she claims is nothing physical at all but none the less a relationship, and at that time she was living with her brother. Anyways she still calls it "Our bed" and "Our house". In fear that she would prevent me from seeing my daughter as she always threatens and did that day, I gave her the phone number to the woman I was with when she asked. She contacted her and told her the not so nice things she thought of her and me and this went on for 2 days ending today. Right after I gave her the phone number, my ex and her best friend hacked into my email, changed the password so I could not access it and then did the same with my Facebook account and looked through my messages. My ex after some time, provided me with the new password so I could get back into my accounts....I am talking with the same detective on this matter that is helping me with the assault.

Maybe theres no explanation aside from whatever mental illness she has, but I cannot understand why if she keeps saying that she will never get back together and how much she hates me and how miserable I make her(even though i never bring up getting back together anymore)........why am I crucified for texting, talking on the phone to, and then sleeping with another woman? She even admits that she has closed herself off to me completely to deal with the breakup. It seems despite her relationship with this other man, that there is a great deal of jealousy and thesame kind of hurt feelings as if we were still together. She acts as though seeing me do anything relating to another woman is like I am cheating on her. This is the double standard i am very accustom to but why still act this way after the breakup? Also to add, when she will express her feeling not of anger, she tells me how much she wanted a family and to be married and truly loved me. It strikes me as odd that these things are said at all when for the first month i heard none of that.....only until very recently recently has she said this. Maybe it is because she sees me finally moving on, maybe no. Comments, opinions, some clarity please?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Mike, thanks for giving us an update on your situation with you GF and 2-year-old daughter. I was beginning to wonder how you are doing.


mike06 said:


> Once again it got physical as she choked me 2 times and left bruising on my neck.


I'm so glad to hear that you finally filed a police report on her behavior. Your paramount concern is to protect your D's welfare, which means you must position yourself carefully for what almost certainly is going to be a nasty, vindictive custody battle at some point. It therefore is important to accumulate evidence of your GF's instability -- including police reports, a written log of her outrageous behaviors written down on the days they occur, and photos of bruises on your neck.


> This past Monday, we discussed her moving in and us spending separate nights in the home so our daughter can stay in the house full time. This is working out much better for our daughter....


Well, I won't argue with success. I'm glad to hear that, for now, it seems to be working to the benefit of your D. If your GF is a BPDer, however, she almost certainly will become very VERY vindictive and mean eventually -- at which point you are going to be way too vulnerable sharing a home (albeit at alternate times) with a raging, hostile woman. IMO, requiring your D to adjust to two different homes (especially when she is only 2 years old) is a small price to pay for being safely removed from an angry BPDer's presence. A child that young -- unlike a teenager -- should be able to adapt easily to living in two different homes.

I would have trouble sleeping at night if I thought my BPDer exW had a key to my front door. Even though your GF likely still has some love for you, that love offers no protection to you whatsoever. If she is a BPDer, she can flip to hating you in ten seconds -- at which time she will be completely out of touch with those feelings of love.

A second problem with sharing the home is that it makes it FAR more difficult for the two of you to move on emotionally. As you observed, she is still referring to the bed as "OUR bed" and the house as "OUR home." Because your GF is so volatile and unstable, it will make life a lot less painful for both of you to severe the relationship once and for all -- with nothing (e.g., the shared bed) holding out false promises that the relationship will soon be revived. Otherwise, she will experience a reconciliation and breakup many times over -- dragging the pain out for years.


> I cannot understand why ... I am crucified for texting, talking on the phone to, and then sleeping with another woman? ....why still act this way after the breakup?


She likely wants to keep you warm on the back burner. BPDers have such a strong fear of being alone and abandoned that, even while they are romancing a new mate, they often want to keep the old one around as a fallback option -- in case the new relationship doesn't work out. 

Further, even though the BPDer may continue to love you, it is an immature form of love and what she primarily "loves" is having a man who is always around to ground her and -- by being blamed for every misfortune -- to "validate" her false self image of being "The Victim." Significantly, many different men may adequately play that role. If true, this means that she primarily loves the validation role you play so well, not your unique attributes as a human being. 

Moreover, even if her new relationship does work out, BPDers often will play one mate off against the other -- so as to make themselves look more desirable to both suitors -- thereby reducing the likelihood of being abandoned. This is the "triangulation" process I mentioned earlier.


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

this is the one of the most fascinating threads I've read. I learn so much here. Uptown, you are beyond generous with your knowledge and experience. Mike - good luck to you. I have no experience with BPD at all, but just to say try not to engage in arguments or be sucked into them. You're still arguing with her. Try to extricate yourself from these situations. She's got her fangs in you. You need to pull them out and stay cool.


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## mike06 (Jan 3, 2013)

Yes, the fangs are in and deep and Ive been slowly pulling them out. The triangulation I see very regularly as when we argue, she often times brings his name up in order to let me know what she feels and how she thinks of me, and that he agrees with it. And then much of what goes on between her and I is translated to him in her version of what occurred or was said. Keeping him in the middle of the situation at every chance it seems. Uptown, we had been living together since the day I posted but sleeping in separate rooms and beds. The current living situation is more of a separation than we have ever had during this experience and face to face contact is limited to us passing each other outside when its time for the other to stay at the home, if we even have that contact at all. Usually her or I will stay in our car until the other is in theirs and she will be moving out within 30 days to her own apartment......Im hoping this will provide the closure I've been needing very much this whole time.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

mike06 said:


> She will be moving out within 30 days to her own apartment.


Whew, I'm sure glad to hear that! It can't come too soon. Thanks for the update, Mike.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Mike, has she moved out to her own apartment, as she agreed a month ago? Are you doing okay?


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## mike06 (Jan 3, 2013)

Yes, Uptown she did on 3/1/2013. I am doing well for the most part, thank you for asking. We are actually getting along without any issues or arguements...aside from maybe 2 minor disagreements which we both apologized for right away and were resolved quickly. 

I will say that we see each other and talk/text quite frequently mostly because of our daughter but just simple chit chat back and forth too. Kind of makes it difficult for me to move on still as I still have feelings for her......our 4 year anniversary would have been today also. I dont know at this point if I should just shut her out completely, with exception of interaction for our daughter, but seeing her often and talking makes it tough to forget about the good things from out past and just close that chapter of my life.....if thats whats meant to be......


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

mike06 said:


> I still have feelings for her......our 4 year anniversary would have been today also. I dont know at this point if I should just shut her out completely, with exception of interaction for our daughter....


Mike, I know what you mean. Although I've been divorced from my BPDer exW for over five years, I still love her. Indeed, following the D, I visited with her on the phone for 8 months when she called me every two weeks. She was very cordial and friendly during all those calls. After the 8 months had passed, however, she asked me whether we could ever be friends again -- and why I was never returning her calls.

In response, I asked her whether she still believed I was a violent man who made up a new lie every week. She said, "Oh yes, I still believe that." I then explained that, when you are unable to trust someone, there is absolutely no foundation on which to build a friendship. And I asked her not to call back any more.


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