# Son Destroying My Marriage



## username77

My marriage is far from perfect, but it's been good before and it seems to be solely dependent on the mood of my 16 year old son. He is extremely difficult. I believe he's had ODD from an early age and fights everything. The simplest of chores or tasks are impossible for him and typically end in a screaming match between him and I. For example, I don't allow food in the kids rooms because of ants and mice. But no matter what I find plates of rotting food in his closet, in drawers. If I tell him to take it downstairs and take his phone away for punishment and he'll say "why, you already punished me, what else can you do, do the dishes yourself?". It's like this for everything. Trying to get him to do simple chores when he was younger like pulling weeds typically resulted in him yelling and running from the home.

But now at 16 and 6'2 he yells, is angry, and has the emotional maturity of a 7 year old. He routinely says terrible things to my wife and I. Always tells us when he moves out he'll never speak to us ever again, he hates our guts, etc... He does drugs, drinks, steals my car, threatens suicide as a form of manipulation. It's unbearable really living with the child, he's made my life hell. I've been so close to throttling him but thankfully resisted.

At this point I've dwindled the rules to:

1. No drugs in the house
2. No food in the room
3. Don't scream at your mother

These would seem to be the bare minimum, but he can't follow them. The state allows no options for me. The worst part is this is so hard on his mother, and she blames me for not being able to fix it (fix him). She isn't capable of having a relationship with me, when "my relationship" with my son is so bad. Hers is just as bad, the only difference is she puts up with his manipulative crap, I don't.

So now my wife and I are separating and I have no options on how to deal with my son. My other two children are lovely kids and don't exhibit any of this behavior. When he's gone sleeping over at a friends the entire family dynamic is so different, peaceful. I hate saying it, but I can't stand him, I feel sick with the thought of having to see him in my house.

It's hard to write in one post just how horrible these past 3 years have been with this kid. I never imagined it turning out like this, but from the earliest he was rebellious and oppositional, and extremely sensitive.

He refuses to see a psychiatrist or therapist and says he'll just lie and tell them what they want to hear.


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## GuyInColorado

Sorry you're dealing with this. Doesn't sound like fun and I can't say I have been in your shoes yet (youngest is 11). 

But I don't blame your wife for having no respect for you. It's your job as the leader of the house to fix this. You need to gain control back.

From what you've described, I think you need to get him sober is your first priority. What drugs is he using?

Time for him to experience consequences. Get him expelled. Is he he even attending high school? Get him arrested. He needs to be doing mandatory drug testing, Why does he even have a phone? He shouldn't have anything. Please tell us he doesn't have a vehicle he is allowed to drive. If he steals your car, call the police. Why are you scared to have him face natural consequences??? It's much better this happens before he turns 18 and it's on his permanent record!

If he threatens suicide, you call the police. He will get committed. Time to let his decisions affect his life. 

But you have to get him sober first. Time for an intervention and into rehab. At 16 you should still be able to force him into it. Check your state laws.

He's allowed to do whatever he wants, true. But that's only if he's not incarcerated. I'm thinking that's not too far away.


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## Red Sonja

You have an out-of-control teenager, it's time to stop arguing with him and let him experience the social consequences of his behavior. You cannot "save" him and you will only enable his behavior by saving him from consequences.

Next time he steals your car or brings drugs into the house call the police and, don't bail him out or provide him with a lawyer. He needs serious (adult) consequences for his behavior.

At his age, if he is arrested, a social worker will become involved in his case and determine if he needs psychiatric intervention.


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## brooklynAnn

I wish I had some magical mantra to give to you. I know how difficult kids can be. My son just turned 19 and the last two years of high school was bad. But he has changed and things.are better. 

One thing I have to say, is that, your wife is wrong to blame this on you. Parenting is a joint effort. You have to present a United front.

I also will call 911 whenever he threatened suicide. I don't play those games. I also think that is a cry for help.

What I can advice is to get your son elvauated for ADHD and any other mental health issues.
This is something that must be done to get him the right help. 

Please try to see that your son is not the enemy. He is just a young man without the ability to handle his emotions. He needs to be given tools to control himself. Get him help.

Also, I would advice you to keep telling him that you love him and support him. That's what he needs to hear. 

I would give him little things to do and follow up but no yelling or talking about it too much. I find a gentle approach works.better. 

And remember to show him love and affection as you do your other kids. Take care of your selves as parents.

Get him help by asking his school to have him evaluated or to get a letter requesting one from them.

Good luck and God bless you all.


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## SA2017

16 is a critical age, especially with boys. 

here is my advice: seek counseling in his high school. they have great counselors there and they will work with him together. he HAS to quit drugs. cut his money and wi-fi access. all you have to do is change the password and don't tell him. 

do all these steps in LOVE and Patience. don't ignore him. KEEP talking with and to him. ignore his tone. tell him he is loved and you all care about him but you will not accept criminal behavior. your wife will appreciate it when she see that you keep trying but at the same time you lead and put a foot down. but first of all, get counseling NOW!


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## username77

GuyInColorado said:


> Sorry you're dealing with this. Doesn't sound like fun and I can't say I have been in your shoes yet (youngest is 11)...
> 
> But I don't blame your wife for having no respect for you. It's your job as the leader of the house to fix this. You need to gain control back.


Easier said than done. If you haven't been in this position, you don't understand.



GuyInColorado said:


> From what you've described, I think you need to get him sober is your first priority. What drugs is he using?


Pot, alcohol, Xanax, opiod pills that I know of



GuyInColorado said:


> Time for him to experience consequences. Get him expelled. Is he he even attending high school? Get him arrested. He needs to be doing mandatory drug testing, Why does he even have a phone? He shouldn't have anything. Please tell us he doesn't have a vehicle he is allowed to drive. If he steals your car, call the police. Why are you scared to have him face natural consequences??? It's much better this happens before he turns 18 and it's on his permanent record!


He has no phone, no door on his room, no allowance, no car, I was going to give him my car but I revoked that when he stole it to joyride. He gets nothing from us, no TV, no spending cash, literally nothing. He has nothing left to lose. He sits in a bedroom with no door and just a bed and dresser. As we separate I'm taking his room and he'll sleep on a twin bed in the hallway.



GuyInColorado said:


> If he threatens suicide, you call the police. He will get committed. Time to let his decisions affect his life.


Done that, they just release him that day, I've taken him to the emergency room for threatening suicide twice.



GuyInColorado said:


> But you have to get him sober first. Time for an intervention and into rehab. At 16 you should still be able to force him into it. Check your state laws.
> 
> He's allowed to do whatever he wants, true. But that's only if he's not incarcerated. I'm thinking that's not too far away.


At 16 there are no state programs anymore, you're on your own. There is no assistance unless you have 30K readily available. 30 years ago I would take him out back and beat the **** out of him until he learned some respect. Can't do that now. The kid has had every privilege imaginable, he would rather fight and lose everything than do even 1 thing we say. You THINK you understand, but you have no idea. This is not "fixable" by some manly authoritative decree. The kid is mentally ill.


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## username77

Red Sonja said:


> You have an out-of-control teenager, it's time to stop arguing with him and let him experience the social consequences of his behavior. You cannot "save" him and you will only enable his behavior by saving him from consequences.
> 
> Next time he steals your car or brings drugs into the house call the police and, don't bail him out or provide him with a lawyer. He needs serious (adult) consequences for his behavior.
> 
> At his age, if he is arrested, a social worker will become involved in his case and determine if he needs psychiatric intervention.


He hasn't stolen the car in a long time, last time he did he crashed it and caused 5K in damages. I wanted to call the police my wife refused. When I found Xanax bars in his room, I wanted to call the police, my wife refused. He was picked up smoking something and extremely high by the police, a social worker did get involved but my wife denied the PINS program. Now at 16, there are no programs, there's literally nothing we can do.

I'm at my wits end. They tell stories about how Dads would go to the grocer for milk and cigarettes and never come back, now I see why. If I were younger I would join the French Foreign Legion and leave all this B.S. behind. Coming home to my wife and him is like a living hell, I can't even explain how at the end of my rope I am.


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## Satya

Boot camp.


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## RandomDude

What is your wife's side of the story, and your son's? Have you sat down and talked with them individually?


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## Red Sonja

username77 said:


> He hasn't stolen the car in a long time, last time he did he crashed it and caused 5K in damages. I wanted to call the police my wife refused. When I found Xanax bars in his room, I wanted to call the police, my wife refused. He was picked up smoking something and extremely high by the police, a social worker did get involved but my wife denied the PINS program. Now at 16, there are no programs, there's literally nothing we can do.
> 
> I'm at my wits end. They tell stories about how Dads would go to the grocer for milk and cigarettes and never come back, now I see why. If I were younger I would join the French Foreign Legion and leave all this B.S. behind. Coming home to my wife and him is like a living hell, I can't even explain how at the end of my rope I am.


Then your wife is enabling his behavior. Stand up to her and do the right thing.


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## username77

Satya said:


> Boot camp.


I'm praying to God he joins the military, but somehow in his narcissistic little mind he thinks he's above being enlisted in the military. Like somehow the material wealth and job status I've earned through a lifetime of hard work has rained down upon him, and enlisting in the military is for the lowly people. He has middling grades at best, quit all sports, no activities, no skill-set. He's going nowhere. And in this **** state I can't kick his ungrateful ass to the curb until he's 21 years old. He can basically just come and go, doing drugs, telling his mother to **** off, and there is not a thing we can do about it until he's 21. It's crazy.


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## GuyInColorado

Get him arrested for drug use. How's he getting money for the drugs and booze? Is he selling too? He won't be your problem anymore.

The divorce is good for you. Not so sure for your son, as I'm sure he'll live full time with mom. Make sure you get 50% custody so you pay less child support. Good grief, what a mess. 

He needs to see what jail is like.

What state are you in? You can't ask the courts to assume responsibility over him? Have you paid for legal advice? Not just using Google. If not, that's your next step. You're going to need a good divorce attorney anyways, so start there.


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## username77

RandomDude said:


> What is your wife's side of the story, and your son's? Have you sat down and talked with them individually?


My wife knows he has major problems, she's a child of an alcoholic so she enables him, but she's at her wits end. She worries if we keep pushing it he'll kill himself and it will be all our fault. He's a narcissistic entitled little **** who doesn't understand why we can't just let him do what he wants. He wants to be able to do recreational drugs, drink, cut school, fail classes, not lift a finger around the house, and for us to basically look the other way. He feels we're the problem because we're "too strict". Apparently too strict is insisting on no drugs in the house and not telling your mother to go **** herself.


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## RandomDude

Red Sonja said:


> Then your wife is enabling his behavior. Stand up to her and do the right thing.


Agreed, they aren't working together - husband and wife. 

As a result their son can play them against each other to get his way. Daughter used to do that to my ex all the time until I agreed to be on the same page with her.

So @username77 , your wife is contributing to your problem.


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## username77

GuyInColorado said:


> Get him arrested for drug use. How's he getting money for the drugs and booze? Is he selling too? He won't be your problem anymore.
> 
> The divorce is good for you. Not so sure for your son, as I'm sure he'll live full time with her. Make sure you get 50% custody so you pay less child support. Good grief, what a mess.
> 
> He needs to see what jail is like.


He has a part time job, scrounges from friends. I've tossed his room half a dozen times and haven't found anything that leads me to believe he's selling, although he's come home very high and fails any drug test we give him so he's still using. But there's nothing I could have him arrested for. He knows if he brings drugs into my house he's leaving in handcuffs. I guess he leaves them at friends houses now. I'm sure he brings them in here and there, but you can't be on him every second of every day.


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## RandomDude

username77 said:


> My wife knows he has major problems, she's a child of an alcoholic so she enables him, but she's at her wits end. She worries if we keep pushing it he'll kill himself and it will be all our fault. He's a narcissistic entitled little **** who doesn't understand why we can't just let him do what he wants. He wants to be able to do recreational drugs, drink, cut school, fail classes, not lift a finger around the house, and for us to basically look the other way. He feels we're the problem because we're "too strict". Apparently too strict is insisting on no drugs in the house and not telling your mother to go **** herself.


If she as at her wits end it's time to try something new. Have a sit down with your wife and discuss a game plan, you need to be consistent and weather his behaviour as a team. You can't do this alone and your son is counting on your lack of unity to get what he wants. Divide and conquer.


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## happy as a clam

Kick his ass to the curb. Parental tough love.


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## sandcastle

Your son will take you down every rabbit hole to hell.

The cops are loathe to get involved in parent/child conflicts because 9 times out of 10 the parents refuse to file charges and the DA does not want to waste time with that nonsense.

Your kid is going to have to get busted for something major outside the space of tormenting you- and if that happens?

Most parents will rescue. Maybe this will wake him up...

You need to actually leave the home. 

Or pretty quick,Junior is going to call the cops on YOU. He is going to size up the moment, poke you with enough sticks until you blow.

These kids use the system against the parent and to their advantage.


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## sandcastle

And your wife ?

Her ego probably can't allow her to admit and see that your son is abusive and mentally ill- so she makes you the bad guy- which your son is more than happy to have you be.

You tell him NO which makes YOU the axis of evil-

Don't be shocked if Jr. Isn't telling Mom that YOU are the problem and IF YOU went buhbye that life would be great.


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## sandcastle

Forgot to add-

The drug usage fuels an almost Godlike demeanor-

You morons are obviously confined by your worthless exsistence that happens to pay my bills-please do try to understand that YOU- my parents and my sole providers are mere plebes - I'm so much more enlightened and smarter than you-
Give me money and stop being an annoying gnat that does not understand my brilliance .

Can I have the car tonight? Better yet- buy me that BMW- cause I deserve it.


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## Adelais

username77 said:


> Easier said than done. If you haven't been in this position, you don't understand.
> 
> 
> 
> Pot, alcohol, Xanax, opiod pills that I know of
> 
> 
> 
> He has no phone, no door on his room, no allowance, no car, I was going to give him my car but I revoked that when he stole it to joyride. He gets nothing from us, no TV, no spending cash, literally nothing. He has nothing left to lose. He sits in a bedroom with no door and just a bed and dresser. As we separate I'm taking his room and he'll sleep on a twin bed in the hallway.
> 
> Done that, they just release him that day, I've taken him to the emergency room for threatening suicide twice.
> 
> At 16 there are no state programs anymore, you're on your own. There is no assistance unless you have 30K readily available. 30 years ago I would take him out back and beat the **** out of him until he learned some respect. Can't do that now. The kid has had every privilege imaginable, he would rather fight and lose everything than do even 1 thing we say. You THINK you understand, but you have no idea. This is not "fixable" by some manly authoritative decree. The kid is mentally ill.


Your son sounds like mine was at 16. I feel for you. When that was going on in my house it was like living a nightmare.

In our state, if someone threatened suicide they had to be taken to an inpatient clinic and watched for 3 days. If they are stable and just messing with you, they won't do that again, because it is boring and "stupid" in there. (Our son had to go to one of those places after he threatened my husband and I, saying "Someone is going to die." When we called the police, he said he was talking about himself. The police called his bluff and said that whether anyone threatened someone else or themself, he was required by law to get them evaluated. He was bored in the inpatient ward, had his shoes, belt, shoelaces etc. taken away and was watched for 3 days. All he did was read. He was bored. He never threatened anyone again. LOL)

While he is getting sober, and even if he doesn't get sober, you will have to learn some new parenting skills, so you can get your sanity back.

LOVE AND LOGIC is an amazing set of parenting skills, in all circumstances that I wish I had learned when my children were babies. Oh my gosh! It helps the parent detach and lets the children learn natural consequences to their actions. They teach you phrases, techniques, and loads of ideas for you to get your sanity and personal power in your own life back.

They offer classes all over the country, and have 3 day conferences too, if you can afford it. The regular classes last 6 weeks, for an hour or two once a week, with a trainer, a workbook, a video, and other parents in your same boat. They cost $100 or less. Once in a while you might find one that is free (paid for by a church) and is an all day seminar. It is a good way to get your feet wet.

Check your library for the CD's or DVD's as a starter. There are also books.

Here is a link to find a trainer and classes in your area.

https://www.loveandlogic.com/facilitators/search

Those classes are so amazing, my husband and I said we are going to buy them for our children when they start their own families. Counties offer them (require them) for foster parents, so they don't resort to physical punishment (which is illegal for foster parents.)

We were told by a social worker at the time that the frontal lobe of males finishes developing between the ages of 22 to 24. The frontal lobe is the "executor" part of the brain that tells a person, "This is a good idea" or "This is a bad idea." They literally are missing part of their brain until the frontal lobe is developed! I literally prayed to God that God would do a miracle on our son and develop his frontal lobe faster than normal. Our prayer was answered!

Our son is 22 now, and he is no longer angry. He is off all drugs, and is a productive citizen. He got off drugs on his own, because he met and knew a lot of people on drugs, and saw how stupid and damaged they were, and saw the stupid things they would do for a high. He didn't want to turn into that.

He comes over to our house all the time, tells us he loves us, hugs us, etc. He is mad though, because his stint at the psych ward when he was 16 cost him the freedom to ever own a weapon. He will have to borrow one from a friend (or us) if he ever wants to hunt or do target practice. Not a huge price, but a price. He had to know that he could not threaten us. (We were very scared of him at the time.)

There is hope. Don't give up. You also may have to do "tough love" and let your son fall flat on his face, by telling him that he needs to find a job and another place to live when he is of legal age, because you will not tolerate his behavior in your home anymore. He has to know that he can't abuse you in your own home.

Our son moved out at 17, 1 year before it was legal. He wanted to, and we let him, because we had 3 other children who were living in hell with us. We needed our home life back. When he moved out he went nuts with drugs and alcohol, "having fun" for a while. But when all his belongings were stolen while he was spending days at another friend's house, and his "friends" rubbed oregano oil on his face while he was passed out (and other things like that) he stopped having so much fun. It took things like that to teach him that his family love him more than his friends do.

I hope I didn't ramble, but that I said some things that are helpful to you.

You'll get through this. So will your son.


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## sandcastle

Some come out on the other end and some do not.

For some- "ToughLove" further fuels their rage against the parent who is upfront and Center about implementing that tactic.

"BOOT CAMP"- same rage.

There are terrific parents who can not do a damn thing to "Save" their child.


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## Adelais

username77 said:


> I'm praying to God he joins the military, but somehow in his narcissistic little mind he thinks he's above being enlisted in the military. Like somehow the material wealth and job status I've earned through a lifetime of hard work has rained down upon him, and enlisting in the military is for the lowly people. He has middling grades at best, quit all sports, no activities, no skill-set. He's going nowhere. And in this **** state I can't kick his ungrateful ass to the curb until he's 21 years old. He can basically just come and go, doing drugs, telling his mother to **** off, and there is not a thing we can do about it until he's 21. It's crazy.


I'm so sorry. I know exactly how you feel, but in our state the age is 18. Our son once called me the longest list of cuss words that I didn't even know went together to make sense. Neither my husband nor I cuss. Once I picked our son up at our local Walmart for shoplifting, and the police officer gave me permission to slap him, and he told my son he was a punk. The officer told the other officer "That is a good mother" when I tore our son's stupid looking "wife beater" tee shirt off him and told him to button his shirt, pull up his pants and tighten his belt. The officer took me outside, gave me his card, and said that I needed to stand up to my son more, and not let him run our home. He said that if he ever tried to complain that he was being "abused" that I needed to hand him the officer's card and tell him to "Call Officer Adam, and ask him if he is being abused." He knew what Officer Adam thought of him already!! I actually did that once when my son got angry I slapped him in the face for calling me a string of nasty names. I told him that Officer Adam told me to not put up with his foul mouth and disrespect anymore. While I was very sad and afraid when he moved out, I was relieved to not have the insanity in the home. Even or other children were relieved when he moved out.

You really do need to speak with a lawyer to find out your legal rights and responsibilities. When our son was acting like your son all I thought about was what stupid thing he might do that WE would be charged with because he was a minor. When he moved out at 17, my husband made him sign a paper he had typed up that said he agreed to not drink, use drugs, etc. and would follow all laws. Of course he signed it, because he wanted to move out and have the freedom to do all those things with no one watching. It was hard not knowing if he was dead or alive most of the time, but there was also a strange peace in the home without all the chaos he caused.

Everything that sandcastle says is true. Your son is in a delusional state and not in touch with reality. Only being off drugs, combined with physical (brain) and emotional maturity combined with life experience are going to snap him out of it. It is going to take time and tough love on your part. 

loveandlogic classes will help you get some sanity and control over your own life.


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## Adelais

Just so you know...the slapping I did was not part of loveandlogic. I hadn't heard of loveandlogic at that time. If I had been using loveandlogic techniques our son may have been a very different person at 16 and I would have done something more effective to his personal growth than slap him. Slapping him was wrong, and I have apologized to him now that he is older and I am wiser.

But without effective tools used by the parents, it seems that out of control teenagers run the home, and the parents are desperate to get back control of their household using whatever means is familiar to them (from their own childhood?)


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## Satya

Has he been formally diagnosed with ODD?
I'm sorry if you've already addressed that.


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## Omego

I think you need to start with step one -- that would be getting him sober. As he's completely uncontrollable, I would follow the advice of the poster who said to let him deal with the consequences of his actions. 
16 is really young. He can come through this. Keep in mind that he must be absolutely miserable but unable to deal with his emotions. 
Enforce the 3 rules you set out. If he does anything illegal, call the police.
Is there anyway to avoid separating from your wife? You need to be a united front to deal with this child. Separating will only add to your problems and create more instability for your son.

Hang in there. This can work out. He's still young.


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## sandcastle

Satya said:


> Has he been formally diagnosed with ODD?
> I'm sorry if you've already addressed that.


The kid refuses to be diagnosed.


The kid is not going to get labeled anything willingly-

Smart move on his part.


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## sandcastle

Omego said:


> I think you need to start with step one -- that would be getting him sober. As he's completely uncontrollable, I would follow the advice of the poster who said to let him deal with the consequences of his actions.
> 16 is really young. He can come through this. Keep in mind that he must be absolutely miserable but unable to deal with his emotions.
> Enforce the 3 rules you set out. If he does anything illegal, call the police.
> Is there anyway to avoid separating from your wife? You need to be a united front to deal with this child. Separating will only add to your problems and create more instability for your son.
> 
> Hang in there. This can work out. He's still young.



The kid has already created the Grand Canyon between parents.

He is a user- Xanax oxy, pot, booze and That is the least the OP knows about.

Maybe ketamine, heroin, Ecstasy , spice etcetera .
He is NOT miserable- his Father is.
There are no consequences to ANY of his actions if he is smart enough to stay under the radar. Which he probably is. And has been thus far.


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## Satya

sandcastle said:


> The kid refuses to be diagnosed.
> 
> 
> The kid is not going to get labeled anything willingly-
> 
> Smart move on his part.


It's not about giving him a label.
It's about knowing more about what he may actually have, to better educate the parents on what steps they can take vs those they can't possibly hope to take.

True ODD cannot be "handled" at all in most cases, even by professionals, not without knowing the seriousness or even which medications work. And as you pointed out, the patient is rather defiant in general, so even getting to that point is a major stretch.


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## sandcastle

Satya said:


> It's not about giving him a label.
> It's about knowing more about what he may actually have, to better educate the parents on what steps they can take vs those they can't possibly hope to take.
> 
> True ODD cannot be "handled" at all in most cases, even by professionals, not without knowing the seriousness or even which medications work. And as you pointed out, the patient is rather defiant in general, so even getting to that point is a major stretch.



The OP stated that the kid will not go to a Shrink.

Why?

Because the kid is smart enough not to get labeled.

By the Shrink.

To be used against him in a Court of Law.

This kid is really smart if the OP is to be believed and telling the truth.


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## Satya

His own unlawful actions can be used against him in a court of law.

He doesn't necessarily need a diagnosis at all.

And if anything, a real diagnosis might help to keep him out of jail whilst simultaneously mandating the treatment he might need.

I don't think we're talking at cross purposes here, but I do not believe it's at all smart of the young man to refuse help that could potentially keep him out of prison.


Eta: 16 is a short hop to 18 and then 21 is around the corner. I don't think there's much time to try and help him, but at least the OP and his wife could do their best.


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## sandcastle

Satya said:


> His own unlawful actions can be used against him in a court of law.
> 
> He doesn't necessarily need a diagnosis at all.
> 
> And if anything, a real diagnosis might help to keep him out of jail whilst simultaneously mandating the treatment he might need.
> 
> I don't think we're talking at cross purposes here, but I do not believe it's at all smart of the young man to refuse help that could potentially keep him out of prison.
> 
> 
> Eta: 16 is a short hop to 18 and then 21 is around the corner. I don't think there's much time to try and help him, but at least the OP and his wife could do their best.



His " own unlawful actions " against whom?

His parents- they are screwed unless he murders them or attempts to. Read my earlier posts about parent/child conflicts and law enforcement.

If he is diagnosed with ANY Cluster B and threatens his parents- kiddo is going to have a tough time blaming Daddy for being verbally/physically abusive.

This is a game that a parent never thought they would have to play much less DEFEND themselves against their own child.


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## Omego

sandcastle said:


> The kid has already created the Grand Canyon between parents.
> 
> He is a user- Xanax oxy, pot, booze and That is the least the OP knows about.
> 
> Maybe ketamine, heroin, Ecstasy , spice etcetera .
> He is NOT miserable- his Father is.
> There are no consequences to ANY of his actions if he is smart enough to stay under the radar. Which he probably is. And has been thus far.


Given the fact that he is still a child -- yes, even at 16 -- and immature, I think that it's too harsh to say that he is willingly placing himself in this situation. Doing drugs is a sign of a deeper problem. Of course the parents are miserable, but I believe that there is a way out without demonizing this kid. There's no way that he's happy in is current situation. I think he's in such a hole that he can't see the way out. 

The drug/alcohol use is a major problem which needs to be resolved, by whatever means available. There's no way to improve this situation otherwise.


----------



## username77

sandcastle said:


> And your wife ?
> 
> Her ego probably can't allow her to admit and see that your son is abusive and mentally ill- so she makes you the bad guy- which your son is more than happy to have you be.
> 
> You tell him NO which makes YOU the axis of evil-
> 
> Don't be shocked if Jr. Isn't telling Mom that YOU are the problem and IF YOU went buhbye that life would be great.


Yeah he already does this. I had the flu so I was locked away in my room quarantined and he played the role of good son, laughing and playing with his siblings. But it's an act. I've caught him breaking his little brothers toys and calling him an ******* (the kid is 5).

I know my wife's solution is just to give him back all his stuff and turn a blind eye. I refuse to do it, I'll let the marriage implode before I allow it.

I make a comfortable living, I always said, just get good grades, don't get in trouble with the police or drugs, be respectful and a good citizen and I'll have no reason to really pry into your life (basically you can rebel a little but keep it under control). You'll get an allowance, I'll get you a car, pay for college, whatever you need. But the kid would rather fight tooth and nail and lose everything than put a dish away or be respectful to his mother.

He definitely plays us. I'm the heavy, his mother is in his corner (until she's not). When my son screws her over then my wife is on me to "discipline him". I do, and then 20 minutes later she's taking him for Chinese food and asking if he can have his phone back. 

It's ****ing crazy, I swear my wife and my son deserve each other. Right now I just want to save my relationship with my 11 year old daughter (she's my best friend and a great kid), and my 5 year old son who is so nice. My oldest son can pound sand, if he ever wants a relationship with me he has a lot of making up to do. If he comes around I'll be his biggest supporter, but in his current state I want nothing to do with him.



Satya said:


> Has he been formally diagnosed with ODD?
> I'm sorry if you've already addressed that.


He wasn't formally diagnosed but on one of his hospital visits for threatening suicide the psychiatrist took me aside and said she believes he's just evading her questionnaire, telling her what he thinks she wants to hear. I talked to that doctor for an hour and she said it's likely ODD but he probably has underlying depression, anxiety, and potentially another personality disorder at play but he's too young to diagnose with a personality disorder.


----------



## Omego

username77 said:


> He wasn't formally diagnosed but on one of his hospital visits for threatening suicide the psychiatrist took me aside and said she believes he's just evading her questionnaire, telling her what he thinks she wants to hear. I talked to that doctor for an hour and she said it's likely ODD but he probably has underlying depression, anxiety, and potentially another personality disorder at play but he's too young to diagnose with a personality disorder.


That's the problem. The drugs, the mental illness, etc. So many variables...

Is there any way to get him into a detox facility, against his will?


----------



## username77

sandcastle said:


> His parents- they are screwed unless he murders them or attempts to.


My Mom knows about him because when she watched him he stole pills from her, sleeping pills and pain pills for her neck and stole her car. I told her if he killed me in my sleep I wouldn't be surprised even 1 bit.



sandcastle said:


> If he is diagnosed with ANY Cluster B and threatens his parents- kiddo is going to have a tough time blaming Daddy for being verbally/physically abusive.


Yeah that's his thing, his mother and I were verbally abusive. Like after he stole my brand new car and crashed it I yelled at him, that's apparently abusive.

I grew up with nothing, with real abusive crazy parents, I joined the military, put myself through college, earned a Master's degree. I never acted like this. I never played this eternal victim. Unfortunately I have a lot of crazy in my DNA on both sides and I suspect he just inherited this.

And that's the real thing thing that pisses me off. The kid is such a giant *****. He thinks he's enlightened and independent, but he's terrified of life. He's a coward in every sense of the word.


----------



## sandcastle

username77 said:


> And that's the real thing thing that pisses me off. The kid is such a giant *****. He thinks he's enlightened and independent, but he's terrified of life. He's a coward in every sense of the word.


A coward who is and will destroy everything and anything that makes him feel less than.

Like his siblings. You. Whoever.

You cannot possibly fix this. You can only protect yourself and your other children.

And he certainly CAN be diagnosed. He is not too young. But good luck on that . Unless he does something awful .


----------



## RandomDude

username77 said:


> I know my wife's solution is just to give him back all his stuff and turn a blind eye. I refuse to do it, I'll let the marriage implode before I allow it...
> 
> But the kid would rather fight tooth and nail and lose everything than put a dish away or be respectful to his mother...
> 
> I'm the heavy, his mother is in his corner (until she's not). When my son screws her over then my wife is on me to "discipline him". I do, and then 20 minutes later she's taking him for Chinese food and asking if he can have his phone back...
> 
> It's ****ing crazy, I swear my wife and my son deserve each other.


So... have you drilled into your wife's mind her yet how he's takes advantage of any inconsistency and disunity he can find? He suffers no consequence, mum has his back.

I drove ex-wife crazy with this, she disciplined our daughter, I spoiled her, and boom; rebelliousness. It's because they can. I nibbed it in the butt as soon as I realised how awful I was making things. Now our daughter is very well-behaved and she earns her privileges, she knows even though mum and dad ain't together, we aren't tolerating her BS and we stand as one in this. 

I've never raised a 16 year old however, and I wonder if my daughter's inner rebel will emerge again at that age, I hope not!

Though I was a rebellious youth as well in my childhood, in pre-teens I was poisoned against my father by my mother, I took advantage of this disunity, used mum against him. Eventually he had enough of me, and kicked me out so I had to stay with mum. I didn't dare rebel against mum because once dad was out of the picture, she's very strict and not afraid to discipline. Unfortunately mum's boyfriend didn't like me moving in, and she kicked me out because he didn't like me around not paying rent, then broke up with him and left the country, so I was worth less than her boyfriend who she even dumped later lol. 

For six years I embraced my inner rebel and it still persists to this age. Everyone was my enemy especially law enforcement. After I was caught it was all over, I was no longer off the grid, my fingerprints all taken and I had a wakeup call face to face with an impending prison sentence. I got away with many crimes and only got charged with those at that time but I acknowledged how close it was that I was jailed, and it was only then I decided it's not the life I wanted for myself. I had to suffer the consequences of my actions to see that.

Your son has a comparatively much better situation, but it started from the same issue; family disunity. He also suffers no consequence for him to learn.


----------



## username77

The second part of the problem is the divide this has caused between my wife and I has killed our marriage. The years of dealing with him have left us devoid of all affection for each other. She still tries, I don't feel anything for her anymore. There's not much left to the marriage in my opinion other than finances and shared stuff. I don't really know what to do at this point. I'm not a young man, I don't have forever to find some happiness. Right now I'm miserable in marriage and with my son. Mentally I'm managing, I'm not falling behind in work, but I want to stop letting this run my life. How do I just move past it?

I guess it's time for separation or divorce? I don't want to date anyone or anything like that, but I do want peace, quiet, and a life without incessant craziness my son and wife bring into it. I'm a simple guy, I like the outdoors during the day, then a nice meal, settle into a TV show or book, go to bed. I hate drama, yelling, arguing, stress, but I find my life surrounded by it through no fault of my own.


----------



## ConanHub

Have him committed.

You need to protect your other children.

Send the idiot to a place where he can get strapped to a table or solitary for acting like a moron.

My oldest son was somewhat similar but I never played softball with him so it did not get quite as far. You have the power to commit him against his will while he is a minor.

He will continue to destroy everything around him including your other kids if he isn't stopped.

Call the police and report him if he brings illegal drugs in the home. He is endangering his siblings.

Get your legal ducks in a row and you might have to get actions moving against your wife as well for not protecting her small children from her oldest.

There is no middle ground here.

Been there and done that.


----------



## Bonkers

He's only part of the problem. A relatively small part. 

Your utterly ineffective way of not dealing with it is most of the problem. 

"He refuses to see a psychiatrist"

Seriously?

Are you afraid of him?


----------



## veganmermaid

I say, let him try to play games with a psychiatrist. PsyDs who specialize in addiction and teens know how to handle that kind of crap. Warn the office in advance, heck even take him to multiple doctors to find the most effective fit. A psychiatrist may be able to get him admitted inpatient for being a danger to himself and others and/or to detox. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SA2017

alright. you need to get your attitude right. first of all he is STILL a child. he is an addict and MAYBE mental ill. it's YOUR responsibility to take care of his well being. with his agreement or not, doesn't matter. put your foot down and be a leader! your daughter is NOT your best friend, she is your child. your wife is supposed to be your best friend. act like it. you both need counseling...as couple AND as parents. 
DON'T be afraid NOR annoyed to RAISE your child. he is NO grown up yet. do your part and seek professional help. it doesn't matter if he like it or not. it doesn't matter how he think about it or if he wants to be labeled or not. his opinion doesn't matter because he is an addict and needs probably medication for his mental health too. there is too much to do for YOU than that you can throw the towel. sorry, nobody said parenting is easy. and i know, we went through something with our adult children. we had everything. is hard but absolutely fixable.


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## BioFury

username77 said:


> My marriage is far from perfect, but it's been good before and it seems to be solely dependent on the mood of my 16 year old son. He is extremely difficult. I believe he's had ODD from an early age and fights everything. The simplest of chores or tasks are impossible for him and typically end in a screaming match between him and I. For example, I don't allow food in the kids rooms because of ants and mice. But no matter what I find plates of rotting food in his closet, in drawers. If I tell him to take it downstairs and take his phone away for punishment and he'll say "why, you already punished me, what else can you do, do the dishes yourself?". It's like this for everything. Trying to get him to do simple chores when he was younger like pulling weeds typically resulted in him yelling and running from the home.
> 
> But now at 16 and 6'2 he yells, is angry, and has the emotional maturity of a 7 year old. He routinely says terrible things to my wife and I. Always tells us when he moves out he'll never speak to us ever again, he hates our guts, etc... He does drugs, drinks, steals my car, threatens suicide as a form of manipulation. It's unbearable really living with the child, he's made my life hell. I've been so close to throttling him but thankfully resisted.
> 
> At this point I've dwindled the rules to:
> 
> 1. No drugs in the house
> 2. No food in the room
> 3. Don't scream at your mother
> 
> These would seem to be the bare minimum, but he can't follow them. The state allows no options for me. The worst part is this is so hard on his mother, and she blames me for not being able to fix it (fix him). She isn't capable of having a relationship with me, when "my relationship" with my son is so bad. Hers is just as bad, the only difference is she puts up with his manipulative crap, I don't.
> 
> So now my wife and I are separating and I have no options on how to deal with my son. My other two children are lovely kids and don't exhibit any of this behavior. When he's gone sleeping over at a friends the entire family dynamic is so different, peaceful. I hate saying it, but I can't stand him, I feel sick with the thought of having to see him in my house.
> 
> It's hard to write in one post just how horrible these past 3 years have been with this kid. I never imagined it turning out like this, but from the earliest he was rebellious and oppositional, and extremely sensitive.
> 
> He refuses to see a psychiatrist or therapist and says he'll just lie and tell them what they want to hear.


You need to stop being the stop-gap for his bad decisions. Like a previous poster said, if he brings drugs in the house, call the police and have him arrested. If he steals your car, call the police and have him arrested. You should cancel his cell phone as well. If he wants one, he can get a job and pay for it himself.

More than likely, he's a lost cause, unfortunately. You can no longer influence him, and the only influences he does have will destroy him. But there's nothing you can do, other than let the consequences of his actions find him. Perhaps that will wake him up.

If he's insane enough that you're actually in fear of your life (like not being surprised if he killed you in your sleep), then like Conan said, have him committed. Stop allowing his behavior to continue through inaction. He is destroying your wife, and other children. If you love them, then put a stop to it. Call a mental health place when you're out, explain the situation, find out what needs to happen in order to commit an unwilling minor, and get the ball rolling.


----------



## EleGirl

username77 said:


> Easier said than done. If you haven't been in this position, you don't understand.


I’ve been through this with my step-son, so I get it. I married his father when he was 12. This behavior started at about age 9 and just got worse as got older. 

We kicked him out the summer after he graduated from high school because he was bringing some seriously dangerous drug dealers into our home and exposing my son and his sister to this. 

He’s 30 now and has not changed. His father and mother won’t have anything to do with him. I won’t even let him know where I live anymore (I moved 3 years ago). 

My step-son has a very severe case of BPD and probably some other mental health issues. So, we know why he’s like he is. He uses the drugs to self-medicate. He’s been in trouble with the law and just got kicked out of his 4th or 5th rehab program.

It’s heart breaking, but at some point, we had face the fact that he’s a dangerous person and had to save the rest of the family. 


username77 said:


> Pot, alcohol, Xanax, opiod pills that I know of


Where does he get the money to buy drugs?


username77 said:


> He has no phone, no door on his room, no allowance, no car, I was going to give him my car but I revoked that when he stole it to joyride. He gets nothing from us, no TV, no spending cash, literally nothing. He has nothing left to lose. He sits in a bedroom with no door and just a bed and dresser. As we separate I'm taking his room and he'll sleep on a twin bed in the hallway.


Part of the problem with this is that if you take everything away from a kid and they have nothing to lose, they have no reason to behave… at least this kind of kid does not. You have to be very careful in picking a fight with a child, because they have nothing, so they will fight to the death to win. 

If he’s doing all those drugs, he has access to some money. It’s highly unlikely that he’s getting drugs for free. Is he dealing? That’s no unusual.



username77 said:


> Done that, they just release him that day, I've taken him to the emergency room for threatening suicide twice.


Did they admit him when you take him and keep him for however many hours they can?




username77 said:


> At 16 there are no state programs anymore, you're on your own. There is no assistance unless you have 30K readily available. 30 years ago I would take him out back and beat the **** out of him until he learned some respect. Can't do that now. The kid has had every privilege imaginable, he would rather fight and lose everything than do even 1 thing we say. You THINK you understand, but you have no idea. This is not "fixable" by some manly authoritative decree. The kid is mentally ill.


With a kid like this, beating the **** out of him will not change him. It will only drive deeper into his defiance.

There is one of two things going on here. Either your son is seriously mentally ill and thus he had no control over the ODD, or he’s stuck in a defiant cycle against your authority. And the more you try to figuratively beat the defiance out of him, the more defiant he becomes.

If he refuses counseling, have you and your wife gone to counseling to help you handle him?


----------



## EleGirl

BioFury said:


> You need to stop being the stop-gap for his bad decisions. Like a previous poster said, if he brings drugs in the house, call the police and have him arrested. If he steals your car, call the police and have him arrested. You should cancel his cell phone as well. If he wants one, he can get a job and pay for it himself.
> 
> More than likely, he's a lost cause, unfortunately. You can no longer influence him, and the only influences he does have will destroy him. But there's nothing you can do, other than let the consequences of his actions find him. Perhaps that will wake him up.


I agree with the above about you calling the police on him and making sure that he has charges brought against him for his drugs, for stealing things, etc. He has to have society meter out the consequences because right now he rightly believes that there is nothing that you can do to him. After all you have already taken every thing away from him. What more can you do?



BioFury said:


> If he's insane enough that you're actually in fear of your life (like not being surprised if he killed you in your sleep), then like Conan said, have him committed. Stop allowing his behavior to continue through inaction. He is destroying your wife, and other children. If you love them, then put a stop to it. Call a mental health place when you're out, explain the situation, find out what needs to happen in order to commit an unwilling minor, and get the ball rolling.


The OP cannot have his son committed because he has no way to prove that there is anything wrong with his son. He would have to go to court with proof that his son has a serious mental illness that cannot be treated. The only way to get that evidence is to take his son to a psychiatrist. This is something that takes months, years to do. And thousands of dollars both for the psychiatrist and for the legal case.

Even if he got his son committed, it would be for only 2-3 months since the OP does not have the thousands of dollars ($15K - $30K a month) to pay for his son’s care. So, the son would be released, given a bottle or two of meds, and released. And then is starts all over again.


----------



## EleGirl

username77 said:


> The second part of the problem is the divide this has caused between my wife and I has killed our marriage. The years of dealing with him have left us devoid of all affection for each other. She still tries, I don't feel anything for her anymore. There's not much left to the marriage in my opinion other than finances and shared stuff. I don't really know what to do at this point. I'm not a young man, I don't have forever to find some happiness. Right now I'm miserable in marriage and with my son. Mentally I'm managing, I'm not falling behind in work, but I want to stop letting this run my life. How do I just move past it?
> 
> I guess it's time for separation or divorce? I don't want to date anyone or anything like that, but I do want peace, quiet, and a life without incessant craziness my son and wife bring into it. I'm a simple guy, I like the outdoors during the day, then a nice meal, settle into a TV show or book, go to bed. I hate drama, yelling, arguing, stress, but I find my life surrounded by it through no fault of my own.


You need to get into counseling so someone can help you handle this.

It sounds like a divorce is inevitable. Fight for 50% time with you two younger children. It will help them to be away from their brother. And you might want to consider zero time with your 16 year old unless he and his mother agree to him getting some serious psychiatric help.


----------



## arbitrator

username77 said:


> I'm praying to God he joins the military, but somehow in his narcissistic little mind he thinks he's above being enlisted in the military. Like somehow the material wealth and job status I've earned through a lifetime of hard work has rained down upon him, and enlisting in the military is for the lowly people. He has middling grades at best, quit all sports, no activities, no skill-set. He's going nowhere. And in this **** state I can't kick his ungrateful ass to the curb until he's 21 years old. He can basically just come and go, doing drugs, telling his mother to **** off, and there is not a thing we can do about it until he's 21. It's crazy.


*Exactly which state are you residing in?*


----------



## username77

@arbitrator - I live in NY State, not the city, upstate NY

@EleGirl - I am in counseling, I went for issues with PTSD and anxiety. She's very good. You're right in that he's lost everything so he feels he has no reason to behave. He's said basically the same thing. I've told him simple acts will earn privileges back. Clean your room, stop leaving filthy dishes in your dresser with your clothes (who does that?). Do not talk back, raise your voice, or disrespect your mother (this sets me off every time, say what you want to me, but when he gets loud with his mother I go from 0-100), pass a drug test and you'll get your door and some privacy back. Give me 2 months of peace and I'll give you a cell phone back. Stop cutting school and give your mother and I some normalcy I'll teach him to drive stick and give him my beater I commute with now. But he would rather do anything but what we ask and live with nothing. So while he has nothing now, earning stuff back really just requires being a halfway decent human being, I'm not asking for straight A's (although the kid has an IQ in the mid 140's) or 500 hours of community service, it's literally stop getting so high you can't speak and are sleeping at 4 in the afternoon, and stop yelling at your mother.

Like I said, I have a lot of crazy in my family, so does my wife, so this isn't the kids fault, he has bad mental health genetics and no coping skills. My grandfather was a felon in and out of prison, I have 2 uncles who could be classified likely as anti-social personalities who have constant run ins with the law and lifetime drug users. I have a cousin who is totally mental and hasn't left the room he grew up in in 40 years. My wife's mother died of alcoholism when she was in her 40's, her uncle is a career criminal. Alcoholism and drug use run deep in both families. But we also have architects and doctors, it's really hit or miss. 

I was a loose canon when I was younger, definitely partied too much and was irresponsible, my father died when I was young and he was abusive, and his father was very abusive, so I just had my Mom and siblings once I was a teenager. The difference was I was nice, and I listened, we all got along. I still respected my Mom and I had no problem dealing with consequences myself. I moved out at 17 just to give her a break and not have to pay my way anymore. This kid is totally different, zero love, zero respect, zero accountability, just hates our guts. With my son like this my wife is incapable of handling any other relationship or finding any happiness or distraction so the marriage will end. I can, I dote on my other two kids, I have my work, my hobbies. I tell my wife "basically the boy is dead to me until he changes his attitude, he needs to change not me, I have no more rules to bend. If he does want to change and wants help at anytime, like the prodigal son I'll give him everything I can, but until then, my life marches forward as if he wasn't in it.


----------



## turnera

Have you consulted a lawyer about your rights?


----------



## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> I agree with the above about you calling the police on him and making sure that he has charges brought against him for his drugs, for stealing things, etc. He has to have society meter out the consequences because right now he rightly believes that there is nothing that you can do to him. After all you have already taken every thing away from him. What more can you do?
> 
> 
> The OP cannot have his son committed because he has no way to prove that there is anything wrong with his son. He would have to go to court with proof that his son has a serious mental illness that cannot be treated. The only way to get that evidence is to take his son to a psychiatrist. This is something that takes months, years to do. And thousands of dollars both for the psychiatrist and for the legal case.
> 
> Even if he got his son committed, it would be for only 2-3 months since the OP does not have the thousands of dollars ($15K - $30K a month) to pay for his son’s care. So, the son would be released, given a bottle or two of meds, and released. And then is starts all over again.


Maybe it depends on where you are. I could have had our oldest committed as a minor without his consent. It is double easy if he is perceived as a threat to himself or others.

My be different from state to state. OP should educate himself on what his options are at least. My situation occurred in Washington state over 10 years ago.


----------



## ConanHub

Check the laws in your state about recording conversations in your home, maybe via security cams or vars.

You should have little problem getting him to explode and threaten himself or others.

It will be extremely easy to get him to blow as many times as you need to get authorities involved to take him for evaluation. 

Make simple rules like he doesn't get to eat except at the table. If he tries to force past one of you with a plate of food, calmly take it and put it in the kitchen. If he gets physical or threatening in anyway, call the authorities.

Your son needs a wake up and it will be rude because minors do not get to do anything and get away with it.

I have dealt with troubled youth that labor under the illusion that adults can't do anything to them and the law is only on their side.

It is always hilarious when I physically restrain one while they are committing a crime, usually against another minor, and they say they are calling the cops. I let them know that I would be happy to call the police, several are friends, to help me arrest them.

Your son is a delusional bully that commits crimes in your home apparently whenever he feels like it.

How come he hasn't been reported?


----------



## BioFury

EleGirl said:


> I agree with the above about you calling the police on him and making sure that he has charges brought against him for his drugs, for stealing things, etc. He has to have society meter out the consequences because right now he rightly believes that there is nothing that you can do to him. After all you have already taken every thing away from him. What more can you do?
> 
> 
> The OP cannot have his son committed because he has no way to prove that there is anything wrong with his son. He would have to go to court with proof that his son has a serious mental illness that cannot be treated. The only way to get that evidence is to take his son to a psychiatrist. This is something that takes months, years to do. And thousands of dollars both for the psychiatrist and for the legal case.
> 
> Even if he got his son committed, it would be for only 2-3 months since the OP does not have the thousands of dollars ($15K - $30K a month) to pay for his son’s care. So, the son would be released, given a bottle or two of meds, and released. And then is starts all over again.


Maybe there's a way to enlist him in the military without his consent. He'd change, or be pulverized by a drill instructor.


----------



## Bonkers

ConanHub said:


> You should have little problem getting him to explode and threaten himself or others.
> 
> It will be extremely easy to get him to blow as many times as you need to get authorities involved to take him for evaluation.


Exactly. Don't avoid conflict, provoke it!

Let him make his own bed. It will be in a jail cell rather than a bedroom in your home. 

Just make sure he doesn't have access to any weapons.


----------



## EleGirl

username77 said:


> @EleGirl - I am in counseling, I went for issues with PTSD and anxiety. She's very good. You're right in that he's lost everything so he feels he has no reason to behave. He's said basically the same thing. I've told him simple acts will earn privileges back. Clean your room, stop leaving filthy dishes in your dresser with your clothes (who does that?). Do not talk back, raise your voice, or disrespect your mother (this sets me off every time, say what you want to me, but when he gets loud with his mother I go from 0-100), pass a drug test and you'll get your door and some privacy back. Give me 2 months of peace and I'll give you a cell phone back. Stop cutting school and give your mother and I some normalcy I'll teach him to drive stick and give him my beater I commute with now. But he would rather do anything but what we ask and live with nothing. So while he has nothing now, earning stuff back really just requires being a halfway decent human being, I'm not asking for straight A's (although the kid has an IQ in the mid 140's) or 500 hours of community service, it's literally stop getting so high you can't speak and are sleeping at 4 in the afternoon, and stop yelling at your mother.


You son does not do what you want because in his mind, he is winning the war. By keeping you and your wife at each other, by him breaking every rule, he is winning in his own mind.

In his mind, his war is against you. And from what you have written, you have been playing his game for a long time. 

At this point, at 16 you have lost control of him. He's won. He's now basically an danger to your entire family.

I think that you really need to search for a way to get your son out of your home and probably out of his mother's home as well and away from your other kids.

It's very hard to get any help in this country for a kid who is having mental health issues.

If I were you, I'd still get him into therapy with a physiatrist. So what if he tells you that he will just lie to the therapist. Of course he will lie. That's to be expected. But a good therapist can see through his lies. Your son is probably not as a good a liar as he thinks he is.

And maybe, just maybe, the therapist will help you get your son into some facility that can help him. And its up to him whether or not he takes the help. But at least he will be away from your other children.


----------



## EleGirl

Bonkers said:


> Exactly. Don't avoid conflict, provoke it!
> 
> Let him make his own bed. It will be in a jail cell rather than a bedroom in your home.
> 
> Just make sure he doesn't have access to any weapons.


I agree that provoking him might be the way to get some help for him. 

Additionally I suggest that he get audio tapes or video tape of him acting out. You could show these to the police and/or mental health provides. New York is a "one-party" consent" state for electronic recording. That means that if only one person consents to the taping, it's legal. So you could be the one person who consents.

The police and/or mental health folks usually will not believe that a person is a danger to themselves or others unless they hear the person make the threats of suicide or harm. And they often lie when asked by the police and/or mental health providers. So an audio take and/or video tape could go a long way to getting him help.


----------



## EleGirl

BioFury said:


> Maybe there's a way to enlist him in the military without his consent. He'd change, or be pulverized by a drill instructor.


The military today is very selective. They don't accept or keep kids like this anymore.

The last thing that the rest of the young men and women in the military needs is to have their back covered by someone like the OP's son.


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## BioFury

EleGirl said:


> The military today is very selective. They don't accept or keep kids like this anymore.
> 
> The last thing that the rest of the young men and women in the military needs is to have their back covered by someone like the OP's son.


What about sending him to a military boarding school on the other side of the country?


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## sandcastle

*sigh*


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## EleGirl

BioFury said:


> What about sending him to a military boarding school on the other side of the country?


Well, if his parents have the money for that. I don't know if a place like that could actually handle the OP's son. Today, even those types of schools have to follow some pretty strict rules on what they can and cannot do.


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## EleGirl

@username77 ;

Read the below quote over and over.... pay attention to this.



sandcastle said:


> Your son will take you down every rabbit hole to hell.
> 
> The cops are loathe to get involved in parent/child conflicts because 9 times out of 10 the parents refuse to file charges and the DA does not want to waste time with that nonsense.
> 
> Your kid is going to have to get busted for something major outside the space of tormenting you- and if that happens?
> 
> Most parents will rescue. Maybe this will wake him up...
> 
> You need to actually leave the home.
> 
> Or pretty quick, Junior is going to call the cops on YOU. He is going to size up the moment, poke you with enough sticks until you blow.
> 
> These kids use the system against the parent and to their advantage.


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## Davidmidwest

I had the same problem with stepson.
1. Here is what I did it did help for a while but he reverted back to the old behavior. We sent him to live with his bio dad, but his bio-dad sent him to his grand parents house.
2. On night that he mibehaved we changed the locks on the doors, making him stay out all night and all the next day, at age 16, thirty six hours later he was appreciative for being let in and getting to eat, but two days later reverted.
3. I was smaked around hard by my dad by misbehaving the way your son is acting. Let him call the police. I told my son that the cops can visit, but they will be going soon. You are not and will get the same treatment for calling them. If he does get you a ticket or a night in jail-Repeat it. He will know you have resole and will win at any cost-Why- because you are the man of house.. Leade of your family and children,,(you wife may have to let you do this. She needs to have a heavy hand) even better yet, let her hand rip your sons face a few times very hard every times he smarts off) A few of those age 16 and younger braught my head around in the right direction to behave. Punch him lightly in the nose. Watch the movie "Big Jake" with John Wayne when he re-estabishes respect from his son. The adult child age 27 I think learns the ground rules as to not be a ass towars a relative.
4. take the door off the hinges into his room. 
5. remove the shower curtain from the bathroom.
6. lock up all the cubards and the fridge and fee him at specific times. Not at the table in time-you don't eat.
7. cancel his cell phone usage. as a parent you can go to his cellphone carrier and cancel it since he is under 18.
8. You have insurance, utilize an intervention that gets your son out of bed at three a.m. in the morning for hospitilation to an adolescent pychiatric ward. He will get counsleing along with you and hopefully get some good help.
9. Drugs don't help....
10. ADD and OCD, bull****. it is a test off your will against his.
11. Pack his bags with him present, put them outside and then push your kid out the door.

HE WILL MOST LIKELY BE TOO EMBARRASSED TO CALL THE COPS ON YOU BOTH.
JOING A TOUGH LOVE GROUP. THEY ARE JUST ABOUT IN EVERY CITY.

I WOULD GO TO THE WORST PUNISHMENT FIRST. CORPORAL PUNISHMENT ONTO YOUR SON FROM YOUR WIFE, IF THAT DON'T WORK WAIT UNTIL HE LEASTS EXPECT IT AND WHEN HE IS IN YOUR FACE BOP HIM IN THE NOSE TO MAKE HIM FALL TO THE GROUND AND LAY THE GROUND RULES IN SHORT SENTENCES-WATCH THE MOVIE BIG JAKE WHEN JOHN WAYNE SETS THE RULES OF BEHAVIOR TOWARDS HIM THE FATHER FROM THE SMART ALEC SON... IF IT CONTINUES REPEAT. EVEN IF YOU AND YOUR WIFE DIVORCE OVER THIS. STILL DO THE BIG JAKE BOP IN THE NOSE, DO NOT DO MORE THAN THAT AT ANYONE OCCASSION. WAIT AGAIN UNTIL HE LEASTS EXPECTS IT. IF HE DIDN'T LEARN HIS LESSON THE FIRST TIME, HE WILL GET IN YOUR FACE AGAIN OR ATLEAST A FEW FEET FURTHER FROM YOU, JUST STEP UP CLOSER-THEN POW... EXPLAIN THE RULES AGAIN. BULLLIES EVENTUALLY GET TIRED OF THIS BECAUSE ITS A ZERO SUM GAME FOR THEM IN A FEW EXPERIENCES OF THAT OCCURING... HE WILL BE SO RESPECTFULL. YOU WILL GET HIM SO PARANOID THAT HE WILL QUESTION HIMSELF AND SAY TO HIM SELF..."IS THERE A CHANCE IF I ACT THIS WAY WILL I GET A SLAP IN THE FACE BY MOM OR A SOCK IN THE NOSE BY MY DAD?" HE WILL ALWAYS BE RESPECTFUL IF IT HOLDS TRUE. AT 18 WHEN DONE WITH HIGH SCHOOL YOU CAN TURN HIM OUT. MAKE SURE EVERY CHILD IS OUT OF THE HOUSE BY AGE 23. IF NOT THEY WILLRUIN YOUR MARRIAGE EVEN STILL. MAYBE LET THEM BACK FOR SIX MONTHS IF THEY ARE NOT SKILLED TO SURVIVE OUTSIDE THE HOME, BUT TRY NOT TO DO THAT BECAUSE THEY BECOME YOUR TENNANT. IF THEY DON'T WANT TO LEAVE YOU MAY HAVE TO GO TO COURT FOR AN EVICTION NOTICE. HAVING A DISREPECTFUL KID THESE DAYS CAN "FUDGE YOU UP THE BUM UNTIL THERE IS NO TOMORROW.' 

you and your wife need to ask yourself, what is important, your marriage and forever happiness or your wife's bond to an obstinate adolescent. Ask, if your wife is hesitant push or an answer twhen and there and move into problem solving mode and solve it right here with a plan. If she show by her actions or words that you are second fiddle, WALK out of the home,get yourself a rental apartment by the week and leave. Don't call or comeback. You will tell if you are second best right away...God doesn't want us to have table scraps and i am sure for your own self respect you don't either. Be a man, take charge of your home. If you allow your wife and son dictate your a mercy roommate-RUN AND NEVER LOOK BACK... I KNOW I LIVED IT BEING A MARRIED PUSH OVER... IT NEARLY KILLED ME.


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## NobodySpecial

So a lot of this advice does not seem to come from knowing much about drug addiction. I am really a bit scorched by this: "your marriage and forever happiness or your wife's bond to an obstinate adolescent". I think I am seeing that this is your son, which does make a difference. If I read this wrong, I apologize.

I 150% agree with the posters who say you and your wife need to be on the same page and that she is enabling him. To some degree, I even agree with going scorched earth on him. 

But. Addiction is a serious mental health issue and not just a dirt bag behavior issue. This person is your CHILD. If your child knows that he is disposable to you and his mother, that would be crushing. 

This is a big ass fish to fry. Step 1, family counseling for you and your wife. With and without son depending on the plan you work out with the counselor and his willingness. Sure, if he commences couch surfing, me might wake up and smell the coffee. Or he might be dead in a year.

Overcoming addiction CAN happen. But it is not an easy slog. A family friend of ours' kid called me from a local detox that he had been committed to for benzo, opiod and alcohol detox. He had literally no where else to go. His life was so bad that there was a restraining order on him for things he had done with another child. It was couch surf and return to drug behavior, live on the streets or die. He asked to stay with us. Over the objection of his own grandparents, we took him in. He walked the recovery walk every day. He made the right choices, got into the right rehabs. He is a pleasure and a joy with his family again after years of being a horrible, horrible source of pain and trial. I tell you this in the hopes that it gives YOU hope. 

His Mom and stepdad where always there for him, though not enabling. Matter of fact when they had to apply consequences that they loved him but he had chosen his path.

Don't throw this baby out with the bathwater. I am sorry you are going through this.


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## FrazzledSadHusband

username77 said:


> He hasn't stolen the car in a long time, last time he did he crashed it and caused 5K in damages. I wanted to call the police *my wife refused. * When I found Xanax bars in his room, I wanted to call the police, *my wife refused*. He was picked up smoking something and extremely high by the police, a social worker did get involved but my wife denied the PINS program. Now at 16, there are no programs, there's literally nothing we can do.
> 
> I'm at my wits end. They tell stories about how Dads would go to the grocer for milk and cigarettes and never come back, now I see why. If I were younger I would join the French Foreign Legion and leave all this B.S. behind. Coming home to my wife and him is like a living hell, I can't even explain how at the end of my rope I am.


Ok, now it's your wife's problem. Don't take the blame for HER bad choices.


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## turnera

NobodySpecial said:


> Don't throw this baby out with the bathwater. I am sorry you are going through this.


I may be wrong, but I got the sense that he was defiant and troublesome in nature, and not just from the drugs. If that's so, just being compassionate isn't going to help him out.


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## NobodySpecial

turnera said:


> I may be wrong, but I got the sense that he was defiant and troublesome in nature, and not just from the drugs. If that's so, just being compassionate isn't going to help him out.


In neither case will JUST being compassionate will help him out.


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## cma62

@username77....I have read your other post on your marriage being over.

Was your marriage good before your son started acting out or has your marriage been in trouble before this.

I am only asking this as on top of what he has going on with his mental health and addiction, if you and your wife have been fighting and arguing from day one then this behaviour will have had a dramatic affect on his psyche.


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## turnera

You can be compassionate while enacting tough love. Nobody's telling him to be an *******; just to have strong boundaries.


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## Satya

In any case, I think many of us are in agreement that this requires qualified, professional help, for the parents as well as the young man. Many parents are incredibly ill-equipped to deal with serious addiction.

If it turns out to be more of an attitude problem, then the tougher love would probably be a good start.


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## username77

The marriage always had issues we never seemed to resolve, this is the death knell though. 

The problem is this. My son will only accept being able to do drugs, drink, yell at us, not clean up after himself, do no chores, cut school, not obey any curfew, and have us look the other way. That is the ONLY way he will speak to us and maintain any relationship with us. Anything else and he says he hates my guts, will not speak to me, wants me to die, etc...

My wife can deny it, but she resents me, she resents that my son and my relationship is broken. She resents I can't wave a magic wand and fix everything. She can say this isn't the cause of the marriage falling apart but it definitely is. If my son didn't behave this way, I wouldn't be moving out this weekend, and my wife wouldn't have removed all affection from the marriage.

The difference between my wife and I is she will do exactly what he wants, she will look the other way and deal with his abuse. I refused and always held him accountable. And holding him accountable has enraged the boy and made him despise me. So my wife sees it as my failing, and me being the problem. Not her precious boy who is a sociopath in training and would rather see me out of the house in a divorce, than clean a dish or go to class.

It is what it is, I can only charge forward and carve out the best life I can under these circumstances and that's what I'm doing.


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## NobodySpecial

turnera said:


> You can be compassionate while enacting tough love. Nobody's telling him to be an *******; just to have strong boundaries.


Ha! I am often referred to as "Nobody" here. I believe that tough love is required WITH compassion. Boundaries without compassion is punishment. This is ineffective.


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## turnera

username77 said:


> The marriage always had issues we never seemed to resolve, this is the death knell though.
> 
> The problem is this. My son will only accept being able to do drugs, drink, yell at us, not clean up after himself, do no chores, cut school, not obey any curfew, and have us look the other way. That is the ONLY way he will speak to us and maintain any relationship with us. Anything else and he says he hates my guts, will not speak to me, wants me to die, etc...
> 
> My wife can deny it, but she resents me, she resents that my son and my relationship is broken. She resents I can't wave a magic wand and fix everything. She can say this isn't the cause of the marriage falling apart but it definitely is. If my son didn't behave this way, I wouldn't be moving out this weekend, and my wife wouldn't have removed all affection from the marriage.
> 
> The difference between my wife and I is she will do exactly what he wants, she will look the other way and deal with his abuse. I refused and always held him accountable. And holding him accountable has enraged the boy and made him despise me. So my wife sees it as my failing, and me being the problem. Not her precious boy who is a sociopath in training and would rather see me out of the house in a divorce, than clean a dish or go to class.
> 
> It is what it is, I can only charge forward and carve out the best life I can under these circumstances and that's what I'm doing.


The only thing I can see that would help here would be to take your WIFE to therapy so a professional can tell her that she is part of the problem here.


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## Bobby5000

I had a son with similar problems. I remember being summoned to the vice-principal's office and he was all ready to ream me out and when he saw how my son treated me, felt bad for me. Fast forward 15 years, he has a prestigious job, happy marriage, saw Mick Jagger at his company recently, lives in a nice area. My suggestions, 

1. Show love He is likely troubled. Tell him you love him, try to understand the underlying problems or issues, though it is hard. Try to listen

2. Control money Keep wallets, check, and all assets secure. Recognize that any cash will be used for drugs. If its cold and he needs a coat, get him a coat or otherwise, you'll find he's freezing and your money spent for drugs. Recognize he will lie quickly and easily 

3. Do not have serious discussions when he is high and irritated. It's dangerous. My son was 6-5 260 lbs (I'm a good dealer smaller) and when someone his size is having a temper tantrum, it's a problem. (he had the captain of the HS football team over one day, and playing, I noticed him pushing this poor football player around around quite easily). 

4. Credit I had another son who is popular, successful, but I get relatively little credit. You get the credit surmounting tough challenges like this. 

5. Drug Treatment Program Try to get him in a program though these are only successful when he wants to do it. The professionals know how to address this. 

6. School Activity If a school activity is available, try to get him in it. 

7. Marriage Try to work things out and put up a united front. Try to listen, and work on consensus. Read books like critical conversations. 

8. Siblings Ask for advice from brothers and sisters on how you should approach the issues. 

9. Beating You may hear that he has been mugged and beaten. Two guys jumped him you might be told. It was a drug deal that went bad. 

10. Family vacations These can be good, and try to find a place he would like. Do note though there are risks. See (8) 

Do note, at least two of our last presidents had fair drug habits Good luck, my prayers are with you. I am very happy and proud that I was able to deal with the challenges, he appreciates and is grateful to me, and it is one of my important accomplishments in life.


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## nekonamida

I'm going to be the one poster to tell you that I think you're doing the right thing by removing yourself from this toxic situation. Too many others are telling you to get on the same page as your wife which is no different than her wanting you to wave a magic wand and fix your son. You clearly want nothing more than to be a united front with your wife but she is unwilling to budge. 

You can't force her to admit her approach isn't working. You can't force her to accept that your son is severely mentally ill and needs to be forced into real help or at least big time consequences while he's under 18 and you still have some control. She's not ready to hear it and she's not going to be ready by the time he's 18. I have seen another couple go through this and even when the husband got his wife to agree to be a parent to their out of control teen instead of their friend, she would just go behind his back and do whatever she wanted with their daughter anyways. It doesn't work. They are now divorced and they still deal with crazy behavior from their daughter who is now in college.

At this point, very little can be done for your son. He may not be a lost cause. He still has time to straighten out but he can't do that when mommy bails him out and refuses to work with you about rehab, having him committed, or even family therapy. That doesn't mean that you can't go yourself and try to keep your relationship with him moving forward when you will likely still have joint custody of him. Use the separation to your advantage to handle things your way. 

However, keep in mind that there is no magic cure. Even if he enrolled in the military, they will kick him out at the first sign of trouble. They will drop him over the first failed drug test. They have no desire to fix this mess for you. Acting like there's some quick fix to this is like buying into one of those get rich quick schemes. It's a complete myth. The only thing that might help him is serious psychiatric intervention and the only way that will work is if he has hit rock bottom and now wants to live differently. 

Go through with your exit plan. Get some counseling for yourself preferably with someone who is experienced with addiction/personality disorders/difficult people in general like a family oriented therapist. Save yourself so that you can be the sane one for your other kids and protect them from the fall out as much as possible.


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## EANx

I agree with the previous poster; you have a son that can't be controlled and a wife that seems to be blaming you for the situation. When I was a teen, my GF's family was like this. The youngest daughter was a wildcat, the father was a good-guy in over his head and the mother was at her wit's end and wanted her husband to solve the problem and was resentful when he couldn't. I wish I could say it ended well. It didn't but not in a severe fashion. She became a statistic but lived through it.

Sometimes kids need to be left to make mistakes and will resist any attempt at helping them avoid mistakes. I believe in firm boundaries with them aware that they can be accepted back if they're willing to abide by those boundaries. Maybe your son needs to make his own mistakes and come back knowing he's welcome as long as he's willing to respect X, Y and Z. Never make him feel worthless, just that the actions themselves are unacceptable.


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## username77

EANx said:


> Maybe your son needs to make his own mistakes and come back knowing he's welcome as long as he's willing to respect X, Y and Z. Never make him feel worthless, just that the actions themselves are unacceptable.


This is where I'm basically at at this point. I've given up trying to "fix him" now. I've got him in a PINS diversion program which made him incensed and he's been downright miserable to be around. In his mind excessive drug use, alcohol use, stealing, stealing the car with no license, cutting school, cursing at us, are just something "all kids do". He wants to be left alone to do it, AND not be bothered with any chores or tasks.

I counter with "you are now on a PINS diversion, you have no door, phone, TV, computer, no car, we don't buy you nice clothes, you've lost the respect of your parents, college isn't possible for you, I will toss you out after HS graduation and help you with nothing. Your next step is a PINS petition and a group home. Up to you how far down the rabbit hole you want to go with this. It can all end and be healed if you start following the basic rules of the house." He tells me he hates my guts and wishes I would die, and continues to do what he wants. I'm pretty sure he's trying to bait me into hitting him to he can press charges, I'm not taking the bait.

He claims that he would rather be in a group home (if he thought my rules were bad)... Kid has no idea, he'll get eaten alive in a group home in the neighboring city. 

My wife is slowly coming around. She's realized that he's extremely manipulative. And the vitriol he spews over things like her refusing to drive him the 1/2 mile to school because he refuses to set his alarm and get up is starting to harden her heart to him. She knows what he is right now, it makes her very sad, but she absolutely agrees with the process even if it leads to him being put in a group home until he's 18.

I can't stand him, I don't like him as a person. If he weren't my son I would never speak or want anything to do with him. I don't see how that changes much in the future. Hopefully my other two turn out better. They show no signs of ODD or being maladjusted.


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## As'laDain

username77 said:


> This is where I'm basically at at this point. I've given up trying to "fix him" now. I've got him in a PINS diversion program which made him incensed and he's been downright miserable to be around. In his mind excessive drug use, alcohol use, stealing, stealing the car with no license, cutting school, cursing at us, are just something "all kids do". He wants to be left alone to do it, AND not be bothered with any chores or tasks.
> 
> I counter with "you are now on a PINS diversion, you have no door, phone, TV, computer, no car, we don't buy you nice clothes, you've lost the respect of your parents, college isn't possible for you, I will toss you out after HS graduation and help you with nothing. Your next step is a PINS petition and a group home. Up to you how far down the rabbit hole you want to go with this. It can all end and be healed if you start following the basic rules of the house." He tells me he hates my guts and wishes I would die, and continues to do what he wants. I'm pretty sure he's trying to bait me into hitting him to he can press charges, I'm not taking the bait.
> 
> He claims that he would rather be in a group home (if he thought my rules were bad)... Kid has no idea, he'll get eaten alive in a group home in the neighboring city.
> 
> My wife is slowly coming around. She's realized that he's extremely manipulative. And the vitriol he spews over things like her refusing to drive him the 1/2 mile to school because he refuses to set his alarm and get up is starting to harden her heart to him. She knows what he is right now, it makes her very sad, but she absolutely agrees with the process even if it leads to him being put in a group home until he's 18.
> 
> I can't stand him, I don't like him as a person. If he weren't my son I would never speak or want anything to do with him. I don't see how that changes much in the future. Hopefully my other two turn out better. They show no signs of ODD or being maladjusted.


something i would suggest, from dealing with a similar situation...

keep a VAR on you and record his vitriol. YOU be on your best behavior and state facts in a calm manner. there are a million reasons for having the recordings... namely, proof of who he is choosing to be. because inevitably, he will try to spin a story about how you are a terrible person.

on a side note, you can also try pulling your phone out at times when he is being belligerent and TELLING him that you are recording the conversation, and that if he does not want to be recorded, he should stop talking to you until he calms down. still have the VAR on you, but keep it hidden.


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## username77

As'laDain said:


> something i would suggest, from dealing with a similar situation...
> 
> keep a VAR on you and record his vitriol. YOU be on your best behavior and state facts in a calm manner. there are a million reasons for having the recordings... namely, proof of who he is choosing to be. because inevitably, he will try to spin a story about how you are a terrible person.


I had to respond to this because things blew up today. We have our son on PINS, he doesn't care, still thinks he's in control and it's a big game. My 11 year old daughter is showering and he needs hair product, instead of waiting for her to be done, or going to school without a perfect quaff he decides to break the door down with his 11 year old sister showering naked (big mistake, I pressed charges and he was arrested).

Things blow up and my wife calls saying he's berating her and threatening, I come home from work and before I talk to him I put on my recorder and record 5 1/2 minutes of the most vitriolic threatening horrible **** a kid could ever say to his parents. I remain calm the entire time, he calls the police, I let him give his statement which is 100% BS and lies. I then play the audio... His face turns white and he literally vomits in my driveway because he knows that all the power he had just disappeared. He's put in cuffs and taken to a group home in a neighboring city. The kids he's with are hardened felons and he's an entitled millennial white liberal. He had one phone call home begging us to get him. I told him that that it's in the courts and it will be worked out through the system and he's staying there, I always told him these are his decisions and how far down the rabbit hole he goes is up to him.


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## As'laDain

username77 said:


> I had to respond to this because things blew up today. We have our son on PINS, he doesn't care, still thinks he's in control and it's a big game. My 11 year old daughter is showering and he needs hair product, instead of waiting for her to be done, or going to school without a perfect quaff he decides to break the door down with his 11 year old sister showering naked (big mistake, I pressed charges and he was arrested).
> 
> Things blow up and my wife calls saying he's berating her and threatening, I come home from work and before I talk to him I put on my recorder and record 5 1/2 minutes of the most vitriolic threatening horrible **** a kid could ever say to his parents. I remain calm the entire time, he calls the police, I let him give his statement which is 100% BS and lies. I then play the audio... His face turns white and he literally vomits in my driveway because he knows that all the power he had just disappeared. He's put in cuffs and taken to a group home in a neighboring city. The kids he's with are hardened felons and he's an entitled millennial white liberal. He had one phone call home begging us to get him. I told him that that it's in the courts and it will be worked out through the system and he's staying there, I always told him these are his decisions and how far down the rabbit hole he goes is up to him.


wish i could have been a fly on the wall for that!

good job. this may be the only way to knock some sense into him.


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## Satya

Good job.
Learning things the hard way is necessary, sometimes. It's good that you had the recording. Now go save it somewhere safe and off-site.


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## Andy1001

Well done.Nobody can say you didn’t give this kid every opportunity to change.Its time for you to work on yourself and decide what you want to do with your life.


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## As'laDain

im curious, what lies did he try to tell the police?


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## username77

As'laDain said:


> im curious, what lies did he try to tell the police?


He told them that I was threatening and screaming at him, that I packed his bag and threw him out of the house. He told them that he doesn't have a winter coat because we won't provide him with one (I have receipts for 5 in the past year that he either loses, throws away out of spite, or sells). Went on about how we're the crazy ones screaming all the time, and he's the only rational one in the house. That we're narcissists and abusive to him. The recording I had his mother being berated and crying, them him screaming like a ranting nut threatening to kill me. So it was clear to the police that he's full of ****, and he's the problem.


I told the police he can come home if he agrees to see a psychiatrist. I took him to the shrink and the psychiatrist put him on Abilify, which is an anti-psychotic. He didn't give him a full diagnosis but suspects bi-polar. My son argued with the doctor, again insisting I was crazy and he's fine. The doctor said "I'm not sure how you got in to see me so quickly, it typically takes 6 weeks. I don't have to treat you, I have a waiting list of people. I'm a neutral outside observer, I don't know you, I don't know your father. I have no reason to medicate you if I didn't feel you really needed it and you're dealing with mental illness. You're still young and I would need to see you longer for a full diagnosis of bi-polar, but I'm going to start treating you for it".

Deep down there's a good kid, he still comes out every now and again, but he's mentally ill, coupled with the drugs and he's not himself at all. Mental illness runs in my family. I have family members who are pure criminals. I've dealt with bouts of depression and anxiety, but can manage it. As long as he starts and sticks to treatment with medication and therapy I think he can rebound. But his time is running out to turn things around. In another year when he pulls this crap he's getting a felony, order of protection, going to big boy jail, he enters a different world.

I told him "you can't see things as they are due to your age, the drugs, and some mental issues. there is not one outside observer who thinks you're right. Not the police, not your brother or sister, not your case worker on PINS, not grandma, not the two CPS investigators you got called on us. In each case they did their investigation and recommended PINS and mental health screening for you, and wrote that we provide a loving and nurturing home life for our children. Every single person involved agrees you need to see a mental health professional, that you're angry, animated, saying crazy things. I'm your father, I want you to be happy and successful, this isn't a game where I'm just trying to **** with you. No one sees it your way".

I'm not really hopeful, he'll eventually take himself off the meds like last time. Eventually it will lead to him getting violent and then he'll be in the system for good. It's heartbreaking to watch your kid go through this. the mental health system is so ****ed up. It's so difficult to get people the help they need. This kid needs to be committed and receive 3 months detox, counseling, supervised meds, etc... I'm going to put him in a program, it will cost me over 50K. Most people can't afford that, and their kids deteriorate mentally and it ends up costing millions in court and incarceration fees.


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## username77

On the bright side, my wife has completely changed course. She now realizes that her son is ill, it's not just the adolescent mind and teenage angst. That it's not my fault I can't fix him. That he needs unrelenting and consistent parenting. She hasn't bent to him when she usually does which has made things much worse because he feels everything closing in on him. She's the daughter of an alcoholic, her mother drank herself to death in her late 40's, so my wife's solution was always ignore it and pretend it's not happening. She would channel her anger and frustration with him at me. She's not doing that anymore, she knows he desperately needs help now.

So I think our marriage will survive, we've been much better on that front. She always needs me in a time of crisis, and that's where we're at.


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## turnera

That's great to hear. I'm glad she's seeing it clearly now and that he's getting the help he needs. Or at least closer to getting help. I hope you'll get your wife into counseling. Children of alcoholics have some of the worst issues, and if she's able to start sorting it all out, she'll be a lot happier, and your marriage will benefit.


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## As'laDain

username77 said:


> On the bright side, my wife has completely changed course. She now realizes that her son is ill, it's not just the adolescent mind and teenage angst. That it's not my fault I can't fix him. That he needs unrelenting and consistent parenting. She hasn't bent to him when she usually does which has made things much worse because he feels everything closing in on him. She's the daughter of an alcoholic, her mother drank herself to death in her late 40's, so my wife's solution was always ignore it and pretend it's not happening. She would channel her anger and frustration with him at me. She's not doing that anymore, she knows he desperately needs help now.
> 
> So I think our marriage will survive, we've been much better on that front. She always needs me in a time of crisis, and that's where we're at.


ok, so far so good. despite things seeming like they are getting worse, the fact that your wife is now on board is HUGE. 

to give you a little backstory on what i have dealt with... i took my niece in when she had just turned 16. she was raised by my sister, who was hooked on meth for about 14 years. from age 13 to 15, my niece was with my parents, which would have been fine if it weren't for the fact that my mother is and always has been abusive. long story short, i ended up with a teenage girl who i barely knew, who was so mentally messed up that she had actually been diagnosed with something that i myself was diagnosed with at 18: Antisocial Personality Disorder. she was also diagnosed with ODD. my mother, at a younger age, was diagnosed with Dissociative identity disorder. at the time that my niece came to me and my wife, my parents were also living with us temporarily. 

so, you can imagine the perfect storm that was brewing... 
that was where the VAR came in. the level off blatant attempts at manipulation and overall nastiness is pretty hard to describe, but im sure you can imagine. in the end, keeping that VAR on me at all times allowed me to hold my niece accountable in ways that nothing else could. any time she threatened to accuse me or my wife of something just to get her way, it was recorded. inevitably, when police were called, everything was recorded. 

i made it a point to constantly tell my niece that i don't hate her, but informed her of how i WILL respond to her actions. any time i catch her telling people lies about me, i will send them audio proof that she is lying. any time she threatens me or my wife with some bogus lie, we will pull out the recordings and everyone will see the hundreds of hours of interactions. once she realized that she could NOT get anyone to believe her anymore, she started to calm down. at that point, i started slowly letting her have privileges back, with the agreement that if she does any of those things, she will lose them for a set amount of time again. if she wanted us to give her stuff that she didn't absolutely need, then she had to behave. 

after about six months of that, she was doing pretty well. then my sister came to live with us, after completing a rehab program. and i saw where this stuff came from. i ended up having to hold my sister to the same standards, and held her liable if she refused to discipline her daughter. eventually, after much arguing and many many hours of recordings later, my sister and her daughter have a pretty decent relationship. they now live elsewhere. they are still both pretty immature, but they are both functioning adults now, where neither of them were before. 

so, if i have any advice for you, it is to KEEP that VAR on you at ALL times when you are around your son. have your wife carry one too. its not over as soon as your son decides to give up fighting you at the time being. have the VAR ready, carry it until his nasty behavior is a distant memory.


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## username77

So I've been discussing with my wife things we can do to alleviate the stress he's bringing into the home. It's not fair to the other 2 kids, they deserve a fun care free childhood he had without the yelling and insanity of him.

If I move to a neighboring state I can kick him out at 18 after H.S. graduation. I'm also getting a job in this state (start in 3 weeks), I'll be making 100K more a year so I can afford to get an apartment near my job and he can live with just me and go to city public school for the remainder of his junior year and senior year (he'll probably be the only white kid, teach him a little about life and get him out of his lilly white entitlement bubble). Once he graduates he can get a job at Home Depot or something and I'll give him some cash to get setup in a place with roommates and move back in with my wife and kids and call it done.

During the "separation" I'll visit my other kids and wife with the problem child every weekend. At this point he's being emotionally and mentally abusive to my wife. I can take it, I can take anything. But she is not dealing well and I need to do something. Waiting for laws or this and that isn't going to be worth it, he knows how to do just enough to make our lives hell, but not enough to warrant long term state intervention.


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## snerg

Davidmidwest said:


> 10. ADD and OCD, bull****. it is a test off your will against his.


I believe it was ODD.

Way different ball of wax.


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## happy as a clam

Not to be an alarmist, but this kid sounds dangerous. As in, “come-back-and-harm-the-family” dangerous.

I hope you’ve considered seriously the notion of taking out a restraining order against him. And protecting yourself with whatever means necessary. He sounds truly unstable.


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## turnera

Are you taking your wife to therapy? She needs to hear from a professional how this all works and that she's not to blame.


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## username77

Soooo he stole my truck, ran away to San Diego with his girlfriend while on a PINS diversion. I pressed charges on the stolen truck charge and he had an arrest warrant put in place for the running away. I flew to CA to get him, had a day to talk to him. I poured my heart out to the kid about the guilt I have seeing him like this. How I'm infinitely more patient with my other 2 kids than I was with him ( I was 22 when I had him) I was hoping he would be well adjusted so I could dodge a bullet, but when I see him struggling the guilt smacks me in the face. I'm definitely kinder, and more interested in my other kids, I've never even raised my voice to them and show them nothing but love and kindness. I replay how I could've been better to him to avoid this. The kid is so sad and lost. He finally opened up that it's not the house but his school he hates and we're just basically his whipping post. He has good friends, but apparently in the 9th grade he lost a large group of "popular" friends and they decided they "didn't like him anymore" and its effected him a lot. 

He knew he had no long term plan running away. I took him home and told him he has to face the music like a man. So we went to court today and they threw the book at him. He's in a home (prison), secured. My wife hates me and will never forgive me for pressing charges, but I'm trying to save the kids life and turn him around. She wants me to leave the house but I do believe my son will be OK, he's open to seeing a doctor and taking medication, he understands his behavior has been beyond terrible. As he got led away in cuffs he was crying, he was just a kid, but he's starting to understand that actions have consequences.

I'm exhausted, I dropped my life and took four flights and 22 hours of traveling over the last 2 days to bring him home. If it weren't for my other 2 I would just jump off a bridge, this is too exhausting. The way I explain it to my son is I'm genetically engineered to do everything I can to ensure you have the best chance at success at life and I'm intervening to help a sad and confused teenager and it's not uncommon. In 10 years if you turn it around you will understand.

I change jobs in a few weeks and I'm gonna move out and push for 50/50 custody of my kids. I can't take my wife's guilt trips anymore. My son ran away and i literally dropped everything, spent thousands to reason with him and bring him home and she still resents me. I don't deserve it at this point, I've more than made amends for any mistakes I've made.


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## Blondilocks

What a hard situation. Just as your son used the family as a whipping post, your wife is using you as a whipping post. Your family is in crisis and really needs a family therapist to help you all sort this. Do you have the energy to give it a few months in therapy? Your younger children will benefit as well.


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## Openminded

I'm sorry. 

You did the right thing.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Your son endangered you all and your wife hates you? I had to put my oldest daughter out at 16 and it was the best decision for my other three children. I hated doing it, but I have three well adjusted children now. My oldest is finally realizing how bad she screwed up and no longer resents me. Now, she isn't Bi-polar, but I dealt with the other issues you related until I chose not to. To me, it sounds like you did everything possible to give him a chance. There is no such thing as a perfect parent and I have yet to meet one who feels they didn't make a few mistakes. Do not beat yourself up because maybe you could have been nicer or other "what ifs," that are easy to see with 20/20 hindsight. My oldest was born when I was 21 and I know all about what ifs. Stay out of the "what if" lake, it has a viscous undertow.


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## As'laDain

keep the VAR on you for conversations with the wife too...


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## Pantone429c

username77 said:


> My wife knows he has major problems, she's a child of an alcoholic so she enables him, but she's at her wits end. She worries if we keep pushing it he'll kill himself and it will be all our fault. He's a narcissistic entitled little **** who doesn't understand why we can't just let him do what he wants. He wants to be able to do recreational drugs, drink, cut school, fail classes, not lift a finger around the house, and for us to basically look the other way. He feels we're the problem because we're "too strict". Apparently too strict is insisting on no drugs in the house and not telling your mother to go **** herself.




It sounds like he is depressed and probably Bipolar, you need professional help



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## turnera

BEFORE you move out, you should tell your wife you're not moving until she attends at least 3 therapy sessions with you. It's the only leverage you have left in terms of keeping a relationship with your kids.


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