# First Post - Need help, *long Post*



## MrW

*First Post - Need help, *long Post* **Update***

I don’t know if I can do it anymore
I have been married for 2.5 years, my wife (we will call her K) and I are at an impasse. 
While we were dating, I was on cloud nine, things were awesome. I thought this was finally the woman that I was meant to find. We had some things in common, but not a lot, however the things we didn’t have in common she was interested in. K, while we were dating was in nursing school and basically 3 or 4 nights we were together; watching TV, going out with friends, going to movies, making dinner, and working on her homework. Things were great. I noticed that K was; smart, had morals, loved spending time with me, and was basically down for anything. So within a year of meeting her, I popped the question. I do remember her saying, “yes” but, looking back on it, the yes wasn’t very confident. After that we planned the wedding, went to the marriage classes at her family’s church. I converted from Catholic to Lutheran, while the differences between the two to me were minimal; I still did it for her. It was something she wanted. However something I always wanted seemed not to be transpiring. I always wanted my wife to have a good relationship with my family, I have three younger sisters, and both parents are still married to each other. Now hindsight is always 20/20 and love is blind, but while we were dating K NEVER wanted to go over to my parent’s house, unless it was to use their boat. At the time I associated it with K just wanted to spend what little time she had free with me. I mean within the year of dating we may have went over there 5-6 times to hang out with my family. My family, especially my mom was delighted that a new person was coming into their family. They were asking all the time, when the next time she was going to come over. I felt my wife did not have the same feelings. Seeing this I tried to get some of the wedding planning together, K said that was a good idea.

Now the Christmas right before our wedding (we were to be married in March) is where things started to unravel. Her family always does Christmas on Christmas Eve, and I was fine with that. So was my family, my family always celebrated Christmas on Christmas Eve, but K and my sister’s husband did eve. So my family changed ours to Christmas. So Christmas was going to be really busy, we had my family and both of our extended families to see that day. So my family was alright if we came over around 10:00 to exchange gifts do a breakfast. That gave my family plenty of time to go to church that morning. K met me at my house early that morning to head over to my parent’s house. However because I wanted to get there on time because that is just who I am, plus I wanted to spend time with my family and grandparents (who were in town from Texas), K got stressed. This caught me by surprise, I didn’t know what was going on. K drove to my parents, but was driving 10mph below the speed limit; this was strange because she always drove 10-15 over. I asked her “what is up?” She responded that she was angry she was up before the rest of her family and going to my family’s house. That kind of made me mad, but I didn’t let it ruin my day. We got to my family’s house 15 min late, because K also made an unscheduled stop on an exit ramp to vent and smoke a cigarette (this was the FIRST time I had ever seen this action, and we met on an online dating site, she said she was a non-smoker, and I said I was looking for a non-smoker) 

While there K was back to her normal self, about an hour after being there my mother asked K if it was alright for her to join in picking out the flowers (now, my mom was just trying to get a relationship with my future in-laws, they had only met once before going out to eat, my parents have a great relationship with the two of my other sisters husbands family, and that was started by doing stuff together planning the wedding ) K agreed that she would let her know when that was to take place. When it was time to go visit K’s extended family K couldn’t get out of the house faster.

I would say 2-3 weeks passed, I get a call from my dad. I guess K called my mom, asking if she wanted a pin on or an arm flower. I guess my mom freaked out, and said some things that shouldn’t, have been said. Thinking that due to the prior arrangement she would have been invited. I don’t know what was said but I guess that soiled any hope that things between K and my family would be at least cordial. Because that is the first thing my wife has held onto all this time. Because another 2-3 weeks later my future sister in law threw a shower for K, and all I heard from my wife is that my mom acted like a complete witch, however this was not what my sisters said (my mother is not a social butterfly, and my sisters would have said something if she was acting the way K said she was, and all three of them said she was acting normal) However 2 weeks later my sister threw a shower for K. Now I was at this one for about 1/3 of the time (arrival and gifts) Now I asked K to arrive 15 min early to meet my childhood friend’s parents, they couldn’t stay for any of the shower but personally wanted to meet K. Well K for some reason would not come early, in fact her and her family showed up 15 min late. I answered the door when they arrived, only her 2 sisters said hello to me, even though I said hello to them. I introduced K to my friend’s parents and they had to leave, they had plans that were unable to be changed for their grandchild, so I completely understood. 

Now I didn’t stay long but I already knew that my future mother in-law had a vendetta to prove, because of her demeanor and what I saw later. I left for an hour while they did the girl things at the shower, I came back for gifts now I sat right next to K just to see what we got (my aunt and grandma wanted me there) Well I couldn’t help but notice my mother in law was pouting and not making eye contact with anyone (I was told she acted that way the entire time) But for a brief moment we made eye contact, my future mother-in law and I, and she made an emphatic smile. Well the shower was over K agreed to stay after her family left, if I were to drive her home. So we stayed at my parents house for nearly 30 min. The entire ride home, all K did was complain how my mom acted, now I was there for this one, and my mom was very friendly, now I understand that I was gone for an hour, but again I asked my sisters and aunt (my aunt has tole me she had very similar marriage problems in her first marriage) all four said she was fine. I then asked my grandma a few weeks later, now my grandma tells it how it is, I asked in her opinion if my mom acted wrong in any way at the shower at my parent’s house, she said ,”no” but did repeat what I saw my mother in-law do. Also later that day when I dropped K off at her parents’ house, the mother –in law pulled me aside and apologized to me on the way she acted( I feel she only did this because I saw her) To this day K says her mom acted ok, however has said a few times that she (so which is it?), “acted that way because no one greeted her at the door.” But I did and even asked if I could grab what she was carrying.

About 6 weeks pass, we get married everything goes well, but my mom didn’t hug K at the end of the night or speak to her at our wedding, or that is what K says, there are photos of K getting a hug from my mom at the church, while in the "Congrats line". Every little thing my mom did that night has been under scrutiny to this day, if a photo of her doesn’t have the flowers on her wrist is seen, it is pointed out. However there are other photos that have her having them on.

Our honeymoon was not the greatest, we spent a whole week in the smoky mountains, alone…. No cell phone service, no internet, no tv, However at least 3 days of those day we fought. Because K felt she was wrongfully treated at our wedding. I tried understanding, but it was just us. This was supposed to be a time for us just to worry about us, and we did have some good times. But they were always interrupted by, what seemed of hatred towards my mom and family. Another thing I remember thinking was very odd, someone cut us off on the highway nearly 5 hours before we got home, K refused to talk to me. That was the first time I saw her real anger.

Now my sister in law and mother in law both wrote me notes, the both started out basically the same, “I know K is sometimes difficult.” I don’t know anyone who would describe me as difficult. But I never knew what difficult was until then. Within the first couple weeks of being back from our honeymoon, things went from bad to worse. It got so bad that my in laws had to take K out for her just to calm down. She was steaming about the littlest of things, like my shoes not being lined up perfectly by the door, or leaving the pillows on the couch crooked. I finally learned what a nagging wife was all about. The hatred towards my mom and this nagging got so bad we sought help from our first counselor. Her name was Rene, now we saw here together about a dozen times, but she eventually split us up. During this time K demanded I don’t see my family, so I obliged, to keep help keep the peace, I feel it did nothing. I remember the first day I didn’t go over there was Memorial day, I was totally lost because while I knew my wife was mad at my mom, but not the rest of my family, and this would have been only the second time we would have seen my family since our marriage, all the other times I went by myself. So from Memorial Day, to sometime in early October I did not see my family but a few times, once was my surprise 30th birthday (my mom was out of town, to tend to my sister moving out of state) and my actual birthday that I celebrated with my mom. The only other times I had contact with my family going water skiing early in the morning on Saturdays, for about an hour, with my father (Something I have done for over a decade, but was limited to about 5 times that summer). 

With our counselor not much was accomplished we must have seen Rene 10 times together. All we did was sit there and listen to K complain about my mom, and what I am doing bad. Whenever I spoke my mind, K was quickly to stop me mid sentence. The counselor split us up, then she learned that I hadn’t really seen my family much more than a handful of times in a few months, but during that same time, K’s family was over weekly and we saw them 1-2 more times over at their house (a very similar schedule as my sister-in-law and her husband have, I feel is too much). Rene told me that it was too much as well, but when I started saying that I didn’t want to spend that much time over there, and maybe do other things, fights would erupt. Here is the thing; K is a nurse works 3 days a week, so 3 days she was gone, 2-3 were spent with her family, leaving 1-2 for just us. We must have seen Rene separate maybe 5 times K and 3 times me, between our schedules and seeing her church’s pastor it was hard to meet weekly. Plus things had calmed down. Until the holidays rolled around

I remember about a week before Thanksgiving, I get a call from my father in law, saying K wants to get a divorce unless I saw the counselor, So I called and set up an appointment, actually she had an opening that day. I told Rene what was going on, and she told me that K had seen Rene that week too. Telling her all the things that I am doing wrong and not getting any self help. Rene told me that K has what is known as Borderline Personality Disorder, and gave me a title of a book to read, it was how to deal with a person with this disorder. Just getting a tablet I downloaded it, and read it in my spare time. It helped a lot. K also got a few books to read and continued to see Rene, I saw her maybe 2 times more after that. I guess I should have kept going, but Rene didn’t feel like I needed too, and I felt progress was going on

We got through Thanksgiving and Christmas without much incident, but sometime in early spring we purchased a home, things were decent, not many fights, it seemed like things were finally turning around. However that was not the case. Sometime around April, things got bad again, so I read the book that Rene told me to read again. K caught me one day, I remember thinking that split second should I tell her what I am reading and why? I decided too, which was a mistake; she went into one of the worst tirades I have ever seen. She left the house for 2 days and came back with a vengeance, she wanted blood. She came home on a Sunday and texting all her “friends” to tell me that she was not borderline, than the next day, she asked If I believed she had it, I told her that she has a lot of the characteristics one someone that does have it. I wish I wouldn’t, K immediately called Rene to chew her out telling her that she is not borderline and what we talked about, Rene hid behind patient-dr confidentiality. So that was the last time we called Rene. K went on a “girls weekend” with her sisters and mother, that week. It was a great time for me to catch up on sleep and get my mind right. When K got back she made sure to tell me the entire weekend her sister and her made fun of the disorder.

One good thing came from that Rene was now public enemy #1, and during this time, my family and K started to get a relationship. Home life still was terrible, the nagging, negativity, cut downs and, anger still continued, but was much less directed at me and my family. Also we got a dog, which helped K stay happy for a bit, and then we planned a vacation to Europe that also kept K happy for a bit. We went on our vacation on September and we were right back to square one. K would not speak with me for a half the time on our vacation while driving and before going to bed. It was just us, and one night I asked “what is wrong?” she said “your family doesn’t like me” and “you don’t like to be around me”. Now I thought back and was thinking what is she talking about? The relationship with my family was getting better and I planned this vacation to just be the two of us. I remember at least 3 nights she didn’t talk to me. It was time for my family to be public enemy number 1 again.

Also during this time I was realizing we were never going to be able to do all those cute simple things that most married couples have fun with, when we got our dog I got her a mothers day card, she mocked that saying she wasn’t a mother (it was all good fun from my end) I got her flowers monthly or 2x a month, but it still wasn’t enough, my mother in law purchased her a vase for no apparent reason for a gift, and when she gave it to K, my mother in law said, “now you can put all your pretty flower s you get K in here.” K’s response was, he doesn’t do it anymore anyways, when less than a week prior to that we threw a dyeing bouquet away.

I didn’t know what to do, so when we got back we started looking for a counselor once again. With the same Christian group, this time we met Jim. He started asking , “what is going on between the two of you? K just went on about trivial things at best, again not being 100% perfect. However, this time within the first 3 times meeting Jim he split us up, for the same reason I couldn’t speak my mind, and like every 5th time we would go together. We have been seeing Jim 50+ times for about a year. We have had our good times and our bad times, 75% bad times I would say. The time I started to care less about K was our 2nd honeymoon. We went for a one day drive to a nearby major city for 3 days. 2 of those K didn’t speak to me, and what set it off was I started talking about march madness (something I enjoy paying attention too) K didn’t talk to me but very minimally for 2 days because I talked about something I was interested in? really? I listen to the things she is interested in and have tried to learn something to make the conversation go longer. This has actually been a pattern I have noticed since we have been married. She cuts down the things I enjoy; my hobbies and interests are always a waste of money and stupid. However her brother has a lot of the similar hobbies and interest and they have always been interesting to her, when he talks about them. I have also been changing what I talk about to keep her from blowing up. Every time I come home I am sitting on egg shells watching every word. It is stressful. We are also back to me not going to see my family unless I want a fight. This started in March and progressively got worse, but in late July we have come to a cliff. My 32nd birthday, my wife had to control the situation and make sure we all went out as a family. Asking my parents, and my grandmother, we chose a spot, and a time.

We arrived 30 min early because it was a Saturday and I didn’t want my grandma to stand and wait for a table. Luckily when we arrived a good friend and his girlfriend were there, we asked them to sit us (a blessing from God they were there) Well us four were talking and having fun, but 5 min before my family was to arrive, K got very anxious and stopped talking. My dad was the first to get to the table, he said hi to everyone individually and everyone was pleasant except for K, she said nothing, not a word, maybe a nod? I don’t know… My grandma was right behind my dad, she said hi to K and I, because she didn’t know the other two (later was introduced and said hi) however K said nothing. Then came my mom, before she could say hello, my friend who sat with us got up and gave my mom a hug, and I could notice my mom was in a good mood. Then I noticed my friend went over and talked to my grandma taking over the entire table (that is usually what he does, he is the life of a situation) While this was going on, my mom sat down. Now I guess she could have said hi to K, but she also didn’t say hi to me, so I don’t think it was on purpose. We she sat down and asked, how WE were doing, I answered for both of us, because I could notice something was up. Everyone but K was talking to each other. K was silent and frowning, even my friend says this (so I wasnt projecting something). We order food, then K goes outside for 20 min. At this point everyone knows who has been around K for any amount of time, the evening for her is ruined and she will do her best to ruin it for all. She did come back, but it was too late. 

You could tell how the night would end. I didn’t expect my wife to want to go over to my parents house and tell my mom off, I was able to talk her out of this, but K started a text war. I wish my mom wouldn’t have ever responded but she did. I called my dad in front of K to tell my mom to stop replying to K’s texts, and that we are married and she shouldn’t say negative things to K. Then I told K she shouldn’t have started this, but she said, “she wanted to let my mother know how she was treating her.” This point I didnt care anymore, I just wanted to roll up in a ball and be burried. That next morning we had a deep heart to heart, I had asked “will you ever be happy being around me”, and “if I could ever be the man she needs.” We then talked about a divorce and maybe this is not working out, and saying we may try a new counselor. That was nearly 2 months ago, and between then and now, there have maybe been 2 or 3 days that are good, but they never last the whole day. K wants to start criticizing me, canceling plans we had together to see her family, or just being mad. 

That same weekend was my real birthday and K turned that into a bad day, I told her I wanted to do eat brats and mac and cheese, go see a movie. Simple request, because she asked I told her that is what I wanted to do, well I also had a meeting with Jim scheduled, he had an emergency so pushed me to the next day, I had no problem with that, just meant I would get home sooner. I got home and waited around for an hour, K came home, and saw that I was home early, I asked why this was a problem, her respsone was, “I wanted to do something special for my ****ing husband!” she got home 10 min before I would have gotten home, if Jim’s would have been short I would have been there the same time. Well instead of starting cooking, she sat around drinking wine, going outside smoking, and we didn’t start cooking until I just went in there and started to cook, however by that time it was too late to see a movie, and that night was ruined. I asked If I could have one thing today would you be happy. Her response was, “You will have to get a lawyer and divorce me!” she said this on my birthday…. Again a few weeks later regarding when I asked her why she was mad all the time.

Sometime around this time K also stopped seeing Jim, for no reason, said she wanted a different counselor. Jim had informed me it is possible that I am in an emotionally abusive relationship. This is after I came to him for the first time telling him what K did to me, every other time it was, “what am I doing wrong.” I told him I am afraid to be around K, because I never know when she is going to snap, I never talk to her about certain topics, I feel I never can do anything right for her, I fell numb right now and dead inside, that she humiliates me in front of friends and family, as mentioned before the criticizing, I no longer ask friends around because of this, (a few say they don’t want to see it), she could care less about anything I accomplish (weight loss work promotion), she always blames me for why she is mad, destroys my belongings, her temper is unpredictable, he knows she trys to keep me away from my family, anytime I spend money it is a waste (everything she spends on is ok, even if I am spending my free Amazon gift cards from taking online surveys) she is always checking up on me. If I am 30 min late I fell as though she is treating me that I am cheating on her. This week Jim also told me I should see a lawyer for a consultation, to either end it or prepare for an end, he had me ask a few friends in to talk with them. Things came out, my friends agreed with him, that I am in an abusive relationship. Once this has been pointed out, I also agree. Prior to this I was thinking it was something I was doing wrong.

This was my ah-ha moment Wednesday night K didn’t say much at all. Now given she cleaned the house and made dinner, both I thanked her for and said the meal was good. I even tried to play cards with her, she was not in the mood. So we sat and watched TV. The next day I come home as I always do, but K was not there, I waited an hour, and texted her, “you out doing something?” I got a response, “yes I am with my family, didn’t want to drive home in traffic, you?” I responded “Im home” . Now I get home about 5:30 so I didn’t text until 6:30 and she didn’t come home until 8. I had cleaned up a little and made a pizza, but when she came home she was in her mood. She came in and put her stuff up, grabbed a glass of wine (something that is done more often then not.) I asked, “what is up?” she said “nothing”, well then I asked, “why does it seem you are mad?” that was the wrong question. She went on the offensive, saying there was no traffic, she just didn’t want to be home, and that she is completely miserable being around me and I was not going to ruin the weekend for her (she was in a wedding party and we both planned on going, I said then I wouldn’t go to not ruin it for her), and that she was not seeing the new counselor (we had an appointment the next day, however she still went). I mentioned we may want to look into getting a divorce, again something I said that was wrong, because that is when things got ugly, nobody got hit (I would never lay a hand on her negatively) but I ended up leaving, she actually was telling me to take more things. 

I stayed at my friends house that night and took off work the next day. On that next day K went through my email, I guess I left it up on my computer in the basement, and forwarded some emails to her mom. Starting Saturday through today I have stayed with my parents, however they are gone on vacation. I have been someone keeping busy, and I do have the dog, because she was gone all weekend with wedding plans. I am lost, I no longer know what to do, I feel the situation has run its course. I have no hope, I am not eating much, and sleep is something I cannot get. 

I need help, I am not a mean person, so it is very hard to do so, I also remember the good times and may hold on to those too much, luckly we dont have kids

Thanks


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## MrW

I guess it should be noted that, my mother in law treats her husband the exact same way, my wife's sister also treats her husband the same way, , and have three kids. I should also say even when things got bad, except for the last couple months I would still hold my wife, listen to her, compliment her (even if a snide comment was in return), take showers with her, kiss her good night and good bye, massage her feet and calfs, and cancel plans if it wasn't that important to me and she needed me. I feel like I have given too much, but no longer receiving anything in return.


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## Lostinthought61

Dear god mrW, she is an uber b*tch, can you see spending the rest of your life with someone that can fly off the handle like that..

who does the house belong too?
what did your counselor say about your relationship?


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## MrW

Xenote said:


> Dear god mrW, she is an uber b*tch, can you see spending the rest of your life with someone that can fly off the handle like that..
> 
> who does the house belong too?
> what did your counselor say about your relationship?


No I cannot, I just wanted to cover all my bases saying I have done all that I can do.

House is in both our names

The current counselor knows not enough

Our second one, I still see, says I should end it and why I have hired a lawyer

The first one we didnt make it to that point


I am starting to feel I am just and idiot to care this much, but I know people who have been divorced and they always tell me to get as much closure as possible, the more the better


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## Abc123wife

How old are you both? It sounds like she has some big issues to work out. I don't think you should sacrifice any more of your life trying to change her. If there is any change when you threaten to divorce her, it will only be long enough to keep you from leaving. Bringing children into this marriage will be a disaster and will force you to be tied to her for 18 or more years. It would be best to get out now. You have done all that is possible without any improvement.


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## Lostinthought61

Sell the house ASAP and file tell her you mean business...and please reconnect completely with your family. Your wife and her family are a train wreck and worse they are manipulating individuals...people like that should not breed, be thankful you did not have a child with her. that is one gene pool that needs to be drained.


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## MrW

I am 32, she is 30. I feel the same way, but havent been able to let go just yet


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## happy as a clam

MrW said:


> I am 32, she is 30. I feel the same way, but havent been able to let go just yet


Ok, it is truly time to let go. Do a search on TAM for username @Uptown... He has some terrific threads about BPD and why you are up against a nearly impossible situation. Or send a private message to Uptown and ask him to join you on this thread.

Start lining up all your ducks in a row. And enlist support from your family. And consider going back to Rene (by yourself) since she knows the truth. These kinds of people (BPDers) are not easy to get away from.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67

happy as a clam said:


> Ok, it is truly time to let go. Do a search on TAM for username @Uptown... He has some terrific threads about BPD and why you are up against a nearly impossible situation. Or send a private message to Uptown and ask him to join you on this thread.
> 
> Start lining up all your ducks in a row. And enlist support from your family. And consider going back to Rene (by yourself) since she knows the truth. These kinds of people (BPDers) are not easy to get away from.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:
She is showing you who she truly is.
BELIEVE HER.
Down the road you will laugh and wonder how you put up with this.


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## Thound

Wow!!! Get out now, and whatever you do, dont knock her up. Now Im going to write my wife a love letter. Your thread made me appreciate her more.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## brooklynAnn

Let me reassure you, you have done all you could have. How you put up with all this is beyond me.

Take Jim's advice and file for divorce. Take this time away and see a lawyer. Do not go back to this woman. 

If you were my son, I would lift you up and take you to the lawyer. 

Please don't spend anymore of your days living like this. People like her never change. And heaven help you if you have kids with her.

File for divorce. You tried everything else, it not working. There is a woman out there who would love and cherish you. Just get your freedom and empower yourself again. Don't stay a victim.


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## tom67

brooklynAnn said:


> Let me reassure you, you have done all you could have. How you put up with all this is beyond me.
> 
> Take Jim's advice and file for divorce. Take this time away and see a lawyer. Do not go back to this woman.
> 
> If you were my son, I would lift you up and take you to the lawyer.
> 
> Please don't spend anymore of your days living like this. People like her never change. And heaven help you if you have kids with her.
> 
> File for divorce. You tried everything else, it not working. There is a woman out there who would love and cherish you. Just get your freedom and empower yourself again. Don't stay a victim.


This^^^
And please carry a voice activated recorder with you when dealing with her to avoid a false domestic violence report.
Some jobs you will get fired for one.
Take care.


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## Uptown

MrW, welcome to the TAM forum. I agree with the advice given to you by *Happy*, *Brooklyn*, *Tom*, and other respondents. As your first therapist (Rene) told you, the behaviors you describe -- i.e., verbal abuse, event-triggered irrational anger, very controlling behavior, irrational jealousy (e.g, jealousy of time spent with your own parents), lack of empathy, and always being "The Victim" -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). 

I note that BPD is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Rene has already given you her professional answer to that question. 

Moreover, you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as verbal abuse, always being "The Victim," and rapid event-triggered mood flips.

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Only a professional like Rene can do that -- i.e., determine whether your W's BPD traits are so severe and persistent to satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD. But, like learning the warning signs for stroke and heart attack, you can easily learn to spot those for BPD without doing a diagnosis. Because we all have these behavioral traits, it is not difficult to recognize them in the behavior of other people, particularly after living with them for two years.



> I am lost, I no longer know what to do, I feel the situation has run its course.


MrW, I offer the following suggestions, which are largely based on my experiences while living with my BPDer exW for 15 years.

*As an initial matter,* I recommend that you NOT make any further effort to persuade your W that she is a BPDer. As you now know, your initial attempt to enlighten her was a mistake. Nearly all BPDers have very self awareness. Hence, when a high functioning BPDer is told she has strong BPD traits, she almost certainly will project that accusation right back onto you. 

Because that projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, she likely will be convinced -- at a conscious level -- that YOU must be the BPDer. This likely is the reason Rene told you about her diagnosis but did not tell your W. Indeed, this is one reason that therapists generally are loath to tell a high functioning BPDer the name of her disorder.

*Second,* I suggest you read Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD (Article 9) and Leaving a Partner with BPD (Article 10). They are in the resource section of the BPDfamily forum. While you are there, I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at the *"Leaving"* board. Two other good online articles are Pain of Breaking Up and Divorcing a Narcissist. 

*Third*, once you decide to proceed with the divorce, I suggest you prepare yourself for the inevitable vindictiveness by reading the book, _Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder_. It is written by Bill Eddy and Randi Kreger. The latter is the author of the best-selling BPD book (_Stop Walking on Eggshells_). 

*Fourth*, I join *Tom* in suggesting that you start carrying a VAR whenever you are around your W to record outbursts -- and start collecting other evidence that may help prepare you for the divorce. Because a BPDer's greatest fear is abandonment, your W almost certainly will split you black, very very black.

*Fifth*, I suggest you NOT waste your time on another MC. If your W has strong BPD traits, going to couples counseling likely will be totally useless. Until a BPDer has had at least several years of individual therapy in a program (e.g., DBT or CBT) targeting her more serious issues, teaching her better communication skills (the province of MC) will only make her more skillful at controlling you. And it will give her a stage on which to attack you and an audience (the therapist) to watch her.

*Finally*, I suggest you read more about BPD red flags so you are able to avoid running right into the arms of another woman just like the one you (hopefully) are leaving. An easy place to start reading is my list of 18 Warning Signs. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Maybe's Thread. 

If those descriptions raise questions you want to address, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences here, you likely are helping many other members and lurkers. Indeed, your thread has already attracted nearly 300 views in only 9 hours. Take care, MrW.


----------



## tech-novelist

It took me about three paragraphs to conclude that she is very likely BPD.
Run, don't walk, away!
And whatever you do, don't get her pregnant!!!


----------



## tom67

technovelist said:


> It took me about three paragraphs to conclude that she is very likely BPD.
> Run, don't walk, away!
> And whatever you do, don't get her pregnant!!!


Good grief she'll do a Lorena Bobbit on him.


----------



## MEM2020

MrW,
I don't know wether or not she has a personality disorder. 

I do say with confidence that she doesn't love you, and likely only got married because of social pressure. 

Maybe she loved you in the beginning, but from the wedding forward - she didn't. 

As long as you remain married you will BOTH be miserable. 

Go find someone you are compatible with. 







MrW said:


> I am 32, she is 30. I feel the same way, but havent been able to let go just yet


----------



## MrW

I appreciate all the help, I have read a couple of the articles. I will say after the first few nights, the NC has been pretty easy. I have finally started eating again, and getting much more sleep, now it is not as much as I would like it is over 6 hours so I am feeling much better


----------



## MrW

However other than a few texts and calls, I havent heard much from my W, I havent used Facebook in nearly a week. Our last phone call was days ago when I asked the questions that I knew she could not answer, "What have you done to make the marriage work?" and "What would you have done diffrently?" neither question could be answered. They were both turned on me. I was the one who hung up.


----------



## tom67

MrW said:


> However other than a few texts and calls, I havent heard much from my W, I havent used Facebook in nearly a week. Our last phone call was days ago when I asked the questions that I knew she could not answer, "What have you done to make the marriage work?" and "What would you have done diffrently?" neither question could be answered. They were both turned on me. I was the one who hung up.


Please I know where you are coming from...
Stop trying to reason with crazy it is a waste of energy and time.
You will get through this.


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## TeddieG

tom67 said:


> Please I know where you are coming from...
> Stop trying to reason with crazy it is a waste of energy and time.
> You will get through this.


Yes, stop trying to use logic. I explained to my h recently when I thought we were reconciling that his family has a history of depression, his sister was diagnosed with bi polar a couple of years ago, and isn't he in touch with his flights of mania and his crash and burns into depression? He of course thinks I'm judging him and calling him crazy, but he started the conversation. As he sat on the couch and commiserated about not being able to drive and being miserable and missing the OW, he said, what the hell is wrong with me? I am so f***ed up. I guess that was a start of his self-awareness, but he's shown no inclination to do anything about it. 

To me, that's the morals/values issue. If someone is aware they have a mental health or physical health condition that is causing them pain or suffering, and also causing that for the people around them, why they would ignore it and not get help is beyond me. I don't think I've brought myself to believe it is selfishness, exactly, but there is a kind of hubris in someone who can clearly get help but just won't. 

And you said that your w's mother treats her father as she treats you, and her sisters treat their h's that way. Sadly they probably think that the sign of a loving man is that he takes their crap. We all want to be loved and accepted, and want our spouses to be gentle when they hold us accountable to our best behavior, but there are people who assume and expect that their partners or spouses should take the crap they dish out. My mother took it for years from my stepfather, something we discovered when he went into a nursing home and she was on her own, only to discover she had cancer and was able to fight it off for a year until she succumbed. It is amazing to me what people internalize and adopt as a definition of love from watching family behavior, and that is why I am convinced that people have serious issues from their families of origin that spill over into marriage relationships. It's covert and dangerous, and only the bravest will see the problem and address it. My h was weak and spineless.


----------



## MrW

TeddieG said:


> Yes, stop trying to use logic. I explained to my h recently when I thought we were reconciling that his family has a history of depression, his sister was diagnosed with bi polar a couple of years ago, and isn't he in touch with his flights of mania and his crash and burns into depression? He of course thinks I'm judging him and calling him crazy, but he started the conversation. As he sat on the couch and commiserated about not being able to drive and being miserable and missing the OW, he said, what the hell is wrong with me? I am so f***ed up. I guess that was a start of his self-awareness, but he's shown no inclination to do anything about it.
> 
> To me, that's the morals/values issue. If someone is aware they have a mental health or physical health condition that is causing them pain or suffering, and also causing that for the people around them, why they would ignore it and not get help is beyond me. I don't think I've brought myself to believe it is selfishness, exactly, but there is a kind of hubris in someone who can clearly get help but just won't.
> 
> And you said that your w's mother treats her father as she treats you, and her sisters treat their h's that way. Sadly they probably think that the sign of a loving man is that he takes their crap. We all want to be loved and accepted, and want our spouses to be gentle when they hold us accountable to our best behavior, but there are people who assume and expect that their partners or spouses should take the crap they dish out. My mother took it for years from my stepfather, something we discovered when he went into a nursing home and she was on her own, only to discover she had cancer and was able to fight it off for a year until she succumbed. It is amazing to me what people internalize and adopt as a definition of love from watching family behavior, and that is why I am convinced that people have serious issues from their families of origin that spill over into marriage relationships. It's covert and dangerous, and only the bravest will see the problem and address it. My h was weak and spineless.


I was actually going to wait until next tuesday to file the paperwork, I think I am going to move that up to tomorrow. I didnt know how using our joint bank account to pay for the lawyer would work, so I was waiting on my parents to get back in town (they get back sunday) However my grandma has decided to lend me the money today. 

Me and K were going to go on vacation this upcoming week, she knows what is going on, she is asking if she could transfer the tickets or if they were refundable, total the tickets are $400

My response 
"Ok first off, we are on the verge of divorce, i have begged that you get help on your anger issue, or ask you if you know what you do to me? The first request you refuse to get help, the second question all you do is turn it back on me. The thing is, I answer that question. The only thing holding me back from going through the divorce is hope that you might open your eyes and see what is happening. The hardest thing about this is realizing you wont, and I am going to have to do it. This basically proves it. You are more interested in loosing 400 and a vacation, which i guess you will go with someone else.instead of answering my question or saying you will get help, you are asking me for ticket information. I forwarded you that to your email, if you want to deal with it, do it yourself."

I honestly hope that is the last time I hear from her, until our court date.


----------



## TeddieG

MrW said:


> I was actually going to wait until next tuesday to file the paperwork, I think I am going to move that up to tomorrow. I didnt know how using our joint bank account to pay for the lawyer would work, so I was waiting on my parents to get back in town (they get back sunday) However my grandma has decided to lend me the money today.
> 
> Me and K were going to go on vacation this upcoming week, she knows what is going on, she is asking if she could transfer the tickets or if they were refundable, total the tickets are $400
> 
> My response
> "Ok first off, we are on the verge of divorce, i have begged that you get help on your anger issue, or ask you if you know what you do to me? The first request you refuse to get help, the second question all you do is turn it back on me. The thing is, I answer that question. The only thing holding me back from going through the divorce is hope that you might open your eyes and see what is happening. The hardest thing about this is realizing you wont, and I am going to have to do it. This basically proves it. You are more interested in loosing 400 and a vacation, which i guess you will go with someone else.instead of answering my question or saying you will get help, you are asking me for ticket information. I forwarded you that to your email, if you want to deal with it, do it yourself."
> 
> I honestly hope that is the last time I hear from her, until our court date.


That kind of weird detachment and upside-down priority thinking rings very true. My h was at my mother's funeral, and that evening we were sitting on my brother's back porch, and OW must have hacked his email and saw the email from h's mother expressing condolences. OW starts texting about 4, h tells her to stop, by 9 he is on the phone with her for two hours and can't wait to get back to her. 

The unbelievable distortion of their thinking is mind-numbing.


----------



## MEM2020

MrW,

After the divorce, you would benefit greatly from individual counseling. 





MrW said:


> I was actually going to wait until next tuesday to file the paperwork, I think I am going to move that up to tomorrow. I didnt know how using our joint bank account to pay for the lawyer would work, so I was waiting on my parents to get back in town (they get back sunday) However my grandma has decided to lend me the money today.
> 
> Me and K were going to go on vacation this upcoming week, she knows what is going on, she is asking if she could transfer the tickets or if they were refundable, total the tickets are $400
> 
> My response
> "Ok first off, we are on the verge of divorce, i have begged that you get help on your anger issue, or ask you if you know what you do to me? The first request you refuse to get help, the second question all you do is turn it back on me. The thing is, I answer that question. The only thing holding me back from going through the divorce is hope that you might open your eyes and see what is happening. The hardest thing about this is realizing you wont, and I am going to have to do it. This basically proves it. You are more interested in loosing 400 and a vacation, which i guess you will go with someone else.instead of answering my question or saying you will get help, you are asking me for ticket information. I forwarded you that to your email, if you want to deal with it, do it yourself."
> 
> I honestly hope that is the last time I hear from her, until our court date.


----------



## alte Dame

Young man, please, please do what you need to to disentangle yourself from this very sad marriage.

You need to rediscover your strength and peace. She is toxic to you. Please stop trying to recover what is unrecoverable. You only hurt yourself.

You are young and can meet other women, women who are emotionally healthy and kind-hearted. They are out there. I know plenty of them.

Marriage is not a lifetime prison sentence. Stop negotiating with your prison guard. Stay NC and file for divorce. You will feel much better very quickly.

Best of luck to you!


----------



## MrW

MEM11363 said:


> MrW,
> 
> After the divorce, you would benefit greatly from individual counseling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MrW said:
> 
> 
> 
> I was actually going to wait until next tuesday to file the paperwork, I think I am going to move that up to tomorrow. I didnt know how using our joint bank account to pay for the lawyer would work, so I was waiting on my parents to get back in town (they get back sunday) However my grandma has decided to lend me the money today.
> 
> Me and K were going to go on vacation this upcoming week, she knows what is going on, she is asking if she could transfer the tickets or if they were refundable, total the tickets are $400
> 
> My response
> "Ok first off, we are on the verge of divorce, i have begged that you get help on your anger issue, or ask you if you know what you do to me? The first request you refuse to get help, the second question all you do is turn it back on me. The thing is, I answer that question. The only thing holding me back from going through the divorce is hope that you might open your eyes and see what is happening. The hardest thing about this is realizing you wont, and I am going to have to do it. This basically proves it. You are more interested in loosing 400 and a vacation, which i guess you will go with someone else.instead of answering my question or saying you will get help, you are asking me for ticket information. I forwarded you that to your email, if you want to deal with it, do it yourself."
> 
> I honestly hope that is the last time I hear from her, until our court date.
Click to expand...


Jim has already said he wants to see me after the divorce. I would agree


----------



## brooklynAnn

Mr. W, how are you doing?


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## MrW

brooklynAnn said:


> Mr. W, how are you doing?


I am still struggling with the situation, I have however finished all the paperwork, I just have to turn it in. I am trying to understand what is going on, but I have been told I never will. She has decided to go on the vacation we had pland (because I no longer wanted to go) with her sister


----------



## farsidejunky

MrW said:


> I am still struggling with the situation, I have however finished all the paperwork, I just have to turn it in. I am trying to understand what is going on, but I have been told I never will. She has decided to go on the vacation we had pland (because I no longer wanted to go) with her sister


Which should reaffirm your decision.


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## Lostinthought61

MrW said:


> I am still struggling with the situation, I have however finished all the paperwork, I just have to turn it in. I am trying to understand what is going on, but I have been told I never will. She has decided to go on the vacation we had pland (because I no longer wanted to go) with her sister


Wow that is cold....


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## frusdil

MrW said:


> I was actually going to wait until next tuesday to file the paperwork, I think I am going to move that up to tomorrow. *I didnt know how using our joint bank account to pay for the lawyer would work,* so I was waiting on my parents to get back in town (they get back sunday) However my grandma has decided to lend me the money today.


My understanding is that (unless you have a cosign limit of amounts over a certain figure) you can withdraw half of the total funds in the joint account with no repercussions.

Check that with the lawyer though...

Also once you've filed, open a bank account in only your name and have your wages deposited into that.


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## EleGirl

Actually you can move at least half of all money in joint accounts into accounts in your name only.

It's not stealing since there are clear paper trails. If it comes up in the divorce just provide the bank statements.

Your wife went on a vacation by herself that cost $400 of community funds. you might be able to get your lawyer to put that $400 in her part of the settlement. This is because you have already decided to divorce.

What proof exists that you have decided to divorce? Are there emails or texts? If there are be sure to keep them as evidence. In most states you can go back to the first time you seriously discussed divorce as the time when assets are separated.

If you have no proof, create it. Send her an email stating that you consider yourselves separated and divorcing per your conversations... and list the date of conversations.


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## Satya

If she has BPD there's no hope of having a normal relationship. She can only be helped if she admits to her disorder and has years of intense therapy with a specialist. If you stay with her your life will always be a whirlwind. You will go insane because she has little to no ability to behave rationally. 

There were many red flags before your marriage, which you completely ignored. Now you see you ignored them at your peril.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say she's likely cheated, or is cheating on you. She assuages her guilt by transferring the accusations to you. It's very common behavior with BPD. They create the very circumstance they fear most, so they can feel justified in having "predicted" their abandonment. 

So, prepare for all manner of craziness as you divorce, which I hope you do, but only you can make that decision.


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## brooklynAnn

Keep strong on your resolve to leave. Finish up your paperwork and send them in. Ask your lawyer about the money. You are getting great advice on TAM, use it to your advantage. 

Don't try to understand everything right now, now is battle preparation time. The war is going to start when she gets wind that you are serious. Don't waver, remember all the crap she put you thru. And all the things she will be doing in the future to make your life miserable.

Keep your family close and lean on them when you are weak. I bet your mum is going to be happy when she hears the news. It must have hurt your family to see you being treated so bad.

When your wife returns, don't buy any sad stories she is selling. Because as soon as she thinks, she has you, it's back to good old normal. Hell for you.

Keep you chin up buddy.


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## turnera

She was running out of time, close to 30, and she had to have SOMEone marrying her. So she roped you in and got what she wanted. She simply doesn't know HOW to act any other way because, well, that's how all the females in her family treat men. Period. Just thank your stars you were smart enough to see it before you had kids with her, and you escaped.

I knew a woman like that once. I remember talking to her about the things I help my H with around the house, yard work, construction, etc. She said she helps her H with the yard work, I said really? She said yeah, when he goes outside to do the lawn, I bring out my folding chair and I sit and read magazines and drink a tea. You know, so he can see me and be happy.

And she was serious!


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## brooklynAnn

Mr. W, how is it going? Have you been able to see the lawyer?


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## MrW

brooklynAnn said:


> Mr. W, how is it going? Have you been able to see the lawyer?


Have an appointment at 4 today.

but while filling out the paperwork (I had to check my cost of insurance, per car) I noticed there is a claim on our insurance, from 3 days ago, my W has yet to inform me about this. I also noticed it was on a rental car, unless she bought a new car. Which I dont think is the case, because there is not a new car on our insurance. This happened on that vacation she went on


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## MrW

I have also finally realized where my anxiety about this comes from, I think I have a natural learned reaction, because of dealing with my wife all this time. So I am affraid of the response that may and most likely will come out


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## turnera

Did you ever live alone before you married her?


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## MrW

I lived with my parents until i went away to college, since then I guess ive always had roommates. Until i got married. K only went away to school for one year, than returned home to finish college, living with her parents up until we got married. So i guess i never lived alone. K and i never lived together before we were married


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## turnera

One thing I ALWAYS tell people is to live alone for at least a while before getting married. You'd be surprised how much you mold yourself to the people around you. Alone, you can really learn who you are.


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## MrW

I filed, however I still don't feel great about my decision, however I think it is tough for anyone to get a divorce. Honestly when I seperated our bank account, I felt a huge lift off my chest


----------



## brooklynAnn

MrW said:


> I filed, however I still don't feel great about my decision, however I think it is tough for anyone to get a divorce. Honestly when I seperated our bank account, I felt a huge lift off my chest


When you start questioning you decision, ask yourself, can I continue to live this way 1 more year? How about five years, when you have kids? What kind of a mother will she be to the children?

What are your parents saying about this? 

You are young and still have time to make a great live. Take this as a lesson, not a failure. Learn from it and grow stronger. I am glad that you are taking the necessary steps to create a better life for you.

Keep posting. Let us know how you are doing.


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## mmcm3333

First, it's generally after a year in a relationship (sometimes 2) before you really know someone well enough. And I think there's some proof in that in your situation since you wrote what it was like and your expectations during the 'romantic' phase when you were dating, but were ignoring the red flags waving in your face (relationship with your family- which I'd overlook if your family was awful, but that isn't the case and already there was signs of lying or lack of disclosure/you didn't know her as well as you thought- such as with the smoking). Another sign was the notes her sister/mother wrote you. You already knew there were big problems before you got married, you had ample warning or at least enough to question the situation, but you married anyway. I'm not sure why you thought things would change with a ring. 

There are some things you've mentioned where she sounds very immature and acts...well, frankly, like a selfish brat instead of someone in an adult relationship with a commitment to really working hard to make this work. (She also sounds very insecure, too). 30 is a bit old to be so immature, so I can't use her age as an excuse. Having her father call you about a potential divorce- that's ridiculous. Her behavior- texting your mother like that- that's a red flag to me. (And quite honestly, if that were my spouse, I would have immediately called him out on that bad behavior and not tolerated that). Her behavior on vacation, how she is around friends, family, her general texting games and what she said when she got back from her girl's weekend...it's all juvenile and serves no purpose other than to cause problems and try to make you feel like crap (to make her feel she's 'right', to make her feel in control, or she just enjoys tearing down people who don't give into her 100%).

On one hand, as I said, you knew there were problems well in advance and now you can't ignore them (and they're getting bigger or fully revealing themselves). On the other hand, every couple I know that has been together a long time (we have several friends that are in their 70's/80's and never divorced) has told us how hard the first 5 or so years of marriage are (longer sometimes). You have to decide if you're really in love with each other- otherwise, with no children, there's no purpose staying together. If that's the case, there's no shame in admitting you simply made a mistake. The shame would be to stay with someone longer than necessary that you don't love or doesn't love you (again, without kids- kids change the game). 

We're only hearing one side of things. However, what I've read, it sounds like she has no interest in making things work as a team- which you have to be for marriage to really work- she wants it her way and won't compromise so both your needs/wants are being met (not just hers). Her reactions are extremely hostile and her behavior seems to indicate that she's not ready for the effort that marriage really requires. It won't always be easy, neither of you will get what you want every time, there has to be give/take, lots of communication (can't stress that enough) and reasonable arguments (at least 80-90% of the time- we all lose it sometimes). She pulls the divorce card out for everything. It's very possible that this is what the rest of your life will be if you stay. I've met some very beat down spouses (mostly men) in 10, 15, 20 year marriages where the spouse was volatile, controlling, irrational and selfish. They become shells of their former selves. And maybe you have challenged her back, but it didn't sound like it (ex. when she was texting your mother or behaved badly on vacation, it sounds like you just let it go rather than call her out on it...if that's the case, you're already giving in and starting to walk on eggshells, tolerating more and more rather than standing up for what's right and 'healthy'). If she was truly willing to work on this and was showing signs of that, I'd give some consideration that this situation could change. But just from what you wrote, and again, only from what you wrote, it doesn't sound like that is the case. 

If you call her on her divorce threats, be prepared for a major backlash. Get support from your family- if it gets to be too much, you'll need some comfort and some wisdom from them to keep moving forward (ask them not to badmouth her, but just offer you a shoulder and reality check when you need it). Don't be surprised if she starts getting even more mean and selfish through the divorce and just be ready for it. And don't spend too much time fighting her over little things- focus on the big picture and being fair. Who cares if you lose a couch, but stick to your guns about being fair about the big things (like the house). And whatever you do, don't engage. When people act like this, the best feeling in the world is not to sink to their level and participate. 

One last thing, your friends telling you to get as much closure as possible- I wouldn't worry about this if you decide you two don't love each other (or she doesn't love you) and she's unwilling to put the work into the marriage to change things (including her behavior and yours in terms of how you're dealing with things). Your closure will be obvious or irrelevant- you're already seeing the writing on the wall in terms of how your life could be if you stay despite my previous sentence. If you want to be happy (and few marriages are 100% happy, but you should expect the majority of time to be happy), want a life partner, want to grow with someone, work as a team, have good communication (again, major, major requirement in marriage), have good sex, make each other feel safe and you are not getting this in your current situation- your closure will be quick because your only other choice is to stay afraid, start working your life around someone that can explode at any moment for any reason and you get nothing from that. This is not going to be some romantic separation/divorce where you'll wonder if you made the right choice or still have feelings for her. The person you knew while dating probably wasn't real (again, I don't think you knew each other well enough- and you were already ignoring big problems from the get-go), so you just can't dwell on what wasn't real. Once the divorce is final, if you go that route, I think you'll feel a lot freer and better about yourself. 

But if you divorce, please give yourself time to move on. Make better choices, take more time to really know someone, be more aware of red flags before a commitment and don't take them lightly. Use this experience to fuel better decision making in your life choices.


----------



## MrW

So its been a while since I last posted, K still have not been served however all paperwork is turned in, I have been told it will take 7-10 business days from when all paper work is turned in plus 24-48 hours to be served. K keeps texting me about her new counselor's time she meets. I also get one to two calls from my in laws a week just seeing how I am doing. I don't answer because all they do is pull the "you need to work through this" and "God hates divorce." Also I just think how many times I begged for help from my m&f in laws, and they never said anything. I think they only said something to K once since we have been married.

I think what is getting me by right now is planning for the future. It just sucks that being 32 I am living with my parents again.... I have spent a little more money than I am used to, going out with friends and buying a few things I need. Sleeping much better recently..


----------



## MrW

Also thanks for all the responses, they seem to help me through this. I will try to post more often


----------



## happy as a clam

Good job, MrW. Stay strong! 

:smthumbup:

Now, keep your resolve, and do NOT pick up that phone when she or her toxic family calls. Tell them to call your lawyer.

P.S. Did you find out what the insurance claim was for?


----------



## MrW

happy as a clam said:


> P.S. Did you find out what the insurance claim was for?


no it still has not been mentioned. and the claim was on the rental car she used to go on vacation. The claim is still pending, I guess I could call the insurance company.


----------



## brooklynAnn

Hey W, was wondering how you are doing. Seems like you are making progress. Don't buy into her " I am trying to change" act. Because if you return to her, all of that will stop. And she will make your life more miserable. 

You in laws are just worried that they now have to take care of their nutty daughter. They will be the ones feeling the brunt of her unhappiness. Stay disconnected, it's in your best interest. 

Don't put yourself down about being at home with your parents. Sometimes, life just dishes out crap and you just have to deal with it. Once, all of this is finished you can go back and rebuild your life. You are very lucky to have family to return to and who are willing to support you thru this.

Also, I am sure, your parents want you close just to keep an eye on you and take care of you during this time. So don't feel bad.

Take care.


----------



## turnera

brooklynAnn said:


> Hey W, was wondering how you are doing. Seems like you are making progress. Don't buy into her " I am trying to change" act. Because if you return to her, all of that will stop.


Worth reading again. And again.

In cases like this, I tell people to never get back together for AT LEAST a year. Why? Because in that year, the other person has to learn to stop expecting stuff from you and learn to be ok supplying it themselves. In most cases, the person wants back because it's financially easier. Once in a while, it's so that people will stop harassing them. RARELY is it because they've seen a sign from God and are reformed.


----------



## MrW

I am thankful about my friends and family, both who I have gotten closer to in the last couple months. It just sucks that I have to start all over, however this is a learning experience and there is a lot to take away from this. I do hope my wife gets some help, but however this will just be blamed on me


----------



## brooklynAnn

MrW said:


> I am thankful about my friends and family, both who I have gotten closer to in the last couple months. It just sucks that I have to start all over, however this is a learning experience and there is a lot to take away from this. I do hope my wife gets some help, but however this will just be blamed on me


Your family for sure is not going to blame you. If the inlaws do , then, so be it. Your happiness and wellbeing comes before anything else. Next time, you will see the red flags and heed them. 

It's better to end it now, when you still have your dignity and self respect. Because I have seen people so beaten down by their spouses, that all that remains are only empty miserable shells. 

You still have time to rebuild. Sometime in the future you will meet someone really wonderful, who would treat you with love, kindness and respect. Let me tell you, it the most wonderful thing to be in such a marriage. Where you don't have to worry and you can be happy without expecting doom at any moment. You will have that.


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## MrW

So I wanted to serve K at home, so I was going to wait until later this week. However somehow she found out I filed, is there a legal way to see that I filed? Well on Friday she showed up at my parents house, where I have been staying with our dog, well I wasnt there. I had plans to hang out with my friends on Friday night, something I havent done lately. Well anyways I got about 5 phone calls around 6:30pm, from K. I knew something was up. Then I get a call from my father saying that K is outside the house demanding to talk to me and wanting the dog. I guess she rang the door bell a few times and waited, my parents did not feel like answering but they did anyways. She tried grabbing the dog, my dad shut the door on her. She then proceeded to wait outside the house in her car, smoking multiple cigarettes, for a good 15 min until they called the police. As soon as the cops showed up she left


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## farsidejunky

Crazy...

Have them file an R.O.


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## brooklynAnn

Expect a lot more of this from her. She is not going to take being divorce lightly. Call your lawyer and ask them if the papers were filed. You should not serve her the papers. Because she will cause a scene and might hurt you. Or go bash!t crazy and get you in trouble. Best bet is to serve her at work, where she would not cause trouble. Spend a few dollars to have it served and than, regret it and be in trouble. 

In the meantime, stay vigilant. Try not to be anywhere alone. And keep a VAR on you at all times. If possible as soon as she approaches start recording her on your phone. That way she will control herself and if something happens, you will have proof. 

Take care kiddo.


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## MrW

Well K was served.....


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## MrW

So I have noticed something lately, I have been having nightmare like dreams just being around her, quite vividly actually, it keeps me up at night some nights. Also why do I feel guilty about this, I have been told I have done everything I could have, but I also think she is hurting, I may be wrong on that however. I am the type of person who rarely thinks of themselves, its always about others. I just feel helpless right now


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## turnera

Try to look at the bigger picture. Not about your marriage, but about life in general. She made her own choices. You made yours. Nobody is dying. You still have a life to live, as does she. You'll go on to enjoy your life and she will fade into the distance, and in 10 years, she'll just be a memory of a part of your life that was a learning experience. You have lots of good living ahead of you.


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## farsidejunky

MrW:

In order to have the need to own her pain, you have to accept that it would be at the expense of your own pain. Yet you still feel guilty.

This is why IC is a must for you. You have some "Knight In Shining Armor" (KISA) in you. Broken people are drawn to KISA'S because they are subconsciously looking for someone to save them. 

It is like magnets from an attraction standpoint. Unfortunately for you, that means you will be attracted to broken people because it appeals to the KISA in you.

Get into IC, brother. Learn to recognize the behavior so you can avoid broken people.

As to your STBX, she has shown you where you stand. She made the choices; her choices hurt her. The kindest thing you can do is allow her to own those choices, without saving her, by continuing on the current path.


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## MrW

I am actually meeting with my counselor tomorrow, and my parents have actually already offered to help financially to pay for the IC, since the next couple months might get pretty expensive. I plan on still seeing Jim every other week. KISA I guess in the long run is a bad thing? Is this where the "nice guys finish last" thing comes from?


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## turnera

My DD25 used to have a lot of trouble with friends. Every time she'd make a friend, she'd end up getting used. She didn't understand. She was so nice to everyone. She always offered to help, as I'd raised her to be a good person. She gave everyone rides as she was one of the only ones with a car. She loaned books and pens and paper, etc. She helped people do their homework if they were having trouble. She invited people out to eat. But after watching from a distance (she was away at college, reporting back to me), when she was about to start her junior year, I asked her to try something. 

I said, "Go up and talk to as many people as you can handle. Be friendly, ask them about themselves, open conversations. But do one thing for me: for the first couple months, don't offer anything. Don't offer to give rides, or loan stuff, or help with anything. Don't spend money on anyone. Just talk and be available as a friend. See what happens."

So she did that, and ended up making the best friends she'd have in all four years. Why? Because the Users drifted away in search of other dummy Givers to Use. The only people who were left were the ones who truly liked her and enjoyed being around her. REAL friends.

She also took that to heart with her current friends, and it was enlightening to see which friends also drifted away since she wasn't being the KISA for everyone.

She's been much happier since.


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## farsidejunky

In a way, yes.

The problem with saving someone who does not know how to save themselves is they will always rely on you to keep doing it. This ends up being at the expense of your time, career, self respect and sanity. 

Nobody has time for that.


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## Marc878

You are about to dodge a huge bullet.

You can't get away from this nightmare fast enough.

Your life would have been how she wanted it to be. Now go out and make your own life.

Congrats!!!!!!!!


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## MrW

Update, things are going better, at work I notice I am starting to become my old self, talking to people going out to lunch with co-workers. I no longer have as many stress head aches. My counselor Jim, recommend me to join a divorce group, he says I can help others, and it would be a good thing for me to do. I went over to our house this weekend, K was at work or out with her family, but I went over there and grabbed the rest of my clothes. Of course late last night I get a text, "dont come to the house" then a few hours she calls. I dont answer. I see Jim again this week, while I know there is still a long way to go for this to be over, I am feeling less controlled by K


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## MrW

Honestly part of me feels a little bad for K, while I know she could have taken 2 counselors advice or recommendations, or just listened to me. However I know even though she has little money she is spending $100+ plus on gas a week (still going to see her parents on a daily basis) and going shopping a lot. While making decent money, I dont know what she plans on doing. I know it is not for me to worry, until I have to start paying the entire mortgage, but I know when we sell our house I would get that money back. I am part of a family cell phone plan, with K her sister and husband. Unfortunately I am the primary on the account, they have paid, but I would like to have those 3 not on my plan any longer. K and I have car insurance together, and while both my cars(pre-marriage) are in my name, her car however is in both, is it in my best intrest to keep her on our insurance, so just in case she gets in a bad accident and the other car sues her/us that I would be covered?


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## MrW

I also wish I could just speed this process up, K has until after Thanksgiving to stop the dissolution, but I know she wont.


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## farsidejunky

Pennies on the sanity dollar.

Look at it as the cost of doing business. In this case divorce is your business.


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## turnera

MrW said:


> Of course late last night I get a text, "dont come to the house"


:rofl:

Yeah, sure, babe, whatever you say. btw, it's still MY house, too.


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## Lostinthought61

not to be technical M. W, but you could walk back into the house and take your place in there, so why have you not placed the house on the market yet?


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## MrW

Lawyer asked me who I would want as a realtor today, I told her.

I just dont get it, k's lawyer told mine that she still wants to work on our relationship. If I shared texts I have gotten in the last couple weeks, I don't know how someone would see that is what she wants


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## MrW

So we have hit a low point, K is now telling her Lawyer that I have been going over to the house on nights I was not there, I have been there 2 times since I filed, one to mow the grass the other to grab the rest of my clothes, specifically she claims I was there Thursday, however I worked until 5, ate dinner with friends until 7:30 met with Jim at 8, and was home by 9:15. She is also objecting to my items list, she says certain things I have owned for quite some time were in fact things we purchased together. 

I am just glad her true self is coming out, I now know who the real person is, in actuality I believe she thinks she is making this more difficult. However splitting up our possessions is easy to me, I just want what is mine, no more. Where actually this would be more difficult in the long run if she was cordial and pleasant.


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## brooklynAnn

She is trying to control the situation and as such you. Try keeping a var on you I case you need it. And don't go yo the house alone. Take a friend with you. This way she can't say you did anything to her. 

Things you can always be replaced. Just be reasonable. Let carry on with her madness, once it does not touch you. 

Did you put the house on the market?


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## MrW

brooklynAnn said:


> She is trying to control the situation and as such you. Try keeping a var on you I case you need it. And don't go yo the house alone. Take a friend with you. This way she can't say you did anything to her.
> 
> Things you can always be replaced. Just be reasonable. Let carry on with her madness, once it does not touch you.
> 
> Did you put the house on the market?


I have sent my lawyer a name of the realtor who sold the house across the street. I always have my phone on me and one click it becomes a recorder, I have been doing that since maybe May if there is a possibility of running into her in a nonpublic setting


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## MrW

Do you think I should pull back and just let the lawyers do their thing? I guess that is why I pay them, 12 weeks until this is over we have our court date


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## brooklynAnn

MrW said:


> Do you think I should pull back and just let the lawyers do their thing? I guess that is why I pay them, 12 weeks until this is over we have our court date


Yes. Let them handle everything. It will be less stressful on you. It will also, prevent any run ins with her. Which can get messy. Hopefully this will end quickly. Just stay clear of her for now. Let the divorce process go thru and let the lawyers handle the messy details.


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## MrW

Well this being quickly just went out the window, she is now claiming the credit card I used the first 18 months of our marriage for everything and the last year for just random stuff, she never knew about. I was able to come up with 13'/14' year end statements to prove that 24k of the 29k spent on that card was primarily for gas/groceries/utilities/insurance. Next I find she is trying to claim "maintenance" to be paid. She makes nearly 50k I do make more but not that much more. I am getting agitated.


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## farsidejunky

You knew it was coming, brother. It's just the beginning.


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## MEM2020

MrW,

Deep breath. You are almost finished and you've handled this like a champ. 

This is a story that is 100% true in fact in and in its illustration of human nature. 

My wife - M2 - got into a fender bender in a parking lot. It was a perfect case of 50-50 in terms of blame. M2 was cutting cross lanes - which is a no no. And the woman she hit was driving the wrong way in the lane. It was a lot with alternating one way lanes. 

They exchange info it's all friendly. Then we get the letter the woman is suing us. Claims the accident was 100% M2's fault and that she now has wiplash. 

M2 goes to the store, they pull up the video from that day, copy it and send it to our insurer. 

The insurer sends her a letter explaining they have the video and she has no case. They INCLUDE a check for $50 which is a release of claims payment. You cash it, and that acts is an explicit legal release. She cashed the check. 

Why did they do that? She really didn't have a case. But it's very difficult to get your own lawyers fees in a civil action. And even if the court awards them, they can be difficult to collect. 

So the check was a tool for letting her 'claim victory'. She can tell all her friends and family that we 'settled'. It's a howler - but it's true. 

Find a way to let your crazy STBXW 'claim victory'. I mean it. 

And just for clarity - if it had been a case where I was the one directly paying this lady using our own money - I would have done it in a heartbeat. 

Partly because M2 WAS 50% at fault. And partly because I'm practical. 

And I say this with all sincerity. Your STBXW is crazy and you are unbelievably lucky she didn't get pregnant. You are escaping this disaster mostly unscathed. That is the exception, not the norm. 





MrW said:


> Well this being quickly just went out the window, she is now claiming the credit card I used the first 18 months of our marriage for everything and the last year for just random stuff, she never knew about. I was able to come up with 13'/14' year end statements to prove that 24k of the 29k spent on that card was primarily for gas/groceries/utilities/insurance. Next I find she is trying to claim "maintenance" to be paid. She makes nearly 50k I do make more but not that much more. I am getting agitated.


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## MrW

I just dont know what that is? I guess the dog? But she has not asked for that. So I set up my own accounts, with just my name on them, and have been putting money in them. I am now told that this money is technically "ours"


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## Woodchuck

You are the second guy this afternoon to get this advice....

Never stick your junk in *CRAZY!*


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## ihatethis

How is everything going?


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## MrW

Well we are moving right along, My soon to be ex wife is nickle and dimeing everything. Menatally I am good. I think I have said this before, by her making this more difficult it has made it easier on me. Court date less then 6 weeks away, cannot come fast enough. Still looking for maintenance however, but I told my lawyers since she has not dropped this yet, I want to bring our marriage counselors along.


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## Lilac23

MrW said:


> I have also finally realized where my anxiety about this comes from, I think I have a natural learned reaction, because of dealing with my wife all this time. So I am affraid of the response that may and most likely will come out


Classic conditioning!


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## MrW

D-Day, today is the first court hearing. She is now claiming I spent 50k+ that she did not know about, this is after she already claimed I spent 29K she didnt know about. I guess she didnt know I was paying Utilities, Insurance, and Bills, and that she was not part of our shopping trips, vacations, or going out to eat.


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## MrW

So the court date came and went, nothing was solved, new court date was assigned. In JUNE!!!! However our house sold, and I am picking my stuff up on Sunday, my lawyers informed her lawyer on Wed, Friday afternoon, they told us that day was no good. Well I am still going, with a police officer and 4 of my friends. The reason she said it was not a good day, is because she was going to move out that day. She had the last 4 months, all last week, Saturday, and all next week to move out. Just trying to control the situation. If we go to the court date, I will be going after EVERYTHING that is mine, as in $$. I have given her plenty of chances to end it 50/50 she always counters with a ridiculous offer. She claimed to not know about a credit card, I got our mortgage application which she signed, and it shows it on there. She claimed not to know that we withdrew from my premarital 401k to pay for our downpayment, she signed the release form for that (have a copy of that). Its one lie after another, I just want to get on with my life.


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## ihatethis

MrW said:


> So the court date came and went, nothing was solved, new court date was assigned. In JUNE!!!! However our house sold, and I am picking my stuff up on Sunday, my lawyers informed her lawyer on Wed, Friday afternoon, they told us that day was no good. Well I am still going, with a police officer and 4 of my friends. The reason she said it was not a good day, is because she was going to move out that day. She had the last 4 months, all last week, Saturday, and all next week to move out. Just trying to control the situation. If we go to the court date, I will be going after EVERYTHING that is mine, as in $$. I have given her plenty of chances to end it 50/50 she always counters with a ridiculous offer. She claimed to not know about a credit card, I got our mortgage application which she signed, and it shows it on there. She claimed not to know that we withdrew from my premarital 401k to pay for our downpayment, she signed the release form for that (have a copy of that). Its one lie after another, I just want to get on with my life.


Wow I am sorry you have to wait until June. How did it go at the house when getting your stuff?


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## brooklynAnn

How did things went at the house? Are you ok?


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## MrW

So that weekend we arrived (5 friends, my dad, and myself) arrived the cop was there, but only my father in law and one of his son in-laws was there. So it went pretty smooth. I noticed a lot of my pre-marriage stuff was missing. Oh well maybe 800 dollars worth of stuff. I did get screwed on splitting up property, maybe lost a grand worth of stuff (because certain things were bought with money that was given to me, she refused to count that as my property, I didn't want to argue). 

After moving for about an hour, I went to ask my father inlaw a question, he responded. Then said the cop is not necessary, the crazies are not here.

Whatever at most im out $2000 I will take that. We placed all my stuff in a storage unit, last weekend I went through it. I noticed all my cards that I gave her, she gave me, photos of us was hidden in all my stuff. I just threw them away, It was difficult, but would have been something that would have brought up memories for me, specifically the good ones, the ones I held on too. However I notice those feelings are few and far between now. The amount of stuff she has pulled since we separated, and I know i mentioned this before, has made this SOOOOO much easier.

Should get confirmation that the house has sold and gone through today. That leaves one more large hurdle. Things are going better, I have started shopping for new stuff my my next place. Valentines day for me wont be too hard, was always a struggle for us. However my sister is getting married the following weekend, that might be a little hard.


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## ihatethis

I separated on October 9th (a Wednesday) and that weekend I had to photograph a wedding. I felt so bad because at that point, I HATED weddings and wanted nothing to do with them.

It's been a little over 2 years since the divorce was finalized, and I still choke up at weddings. I am not against them whatsoever now, but just get a little emotional. 

Don't worry, there are people out there who believe in marriage, and are good people. You will find one.

I'm glad it went smoothly during your move and you didn't lose too much. $2k seems ok for a life not with her.


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## farsidejunky

Mr. W:

Look how far you have come from your opening post. 

You have recognized disfunction and eliminated it from your life.

You are doing great, brother.

Keep healing.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## brooklynAnn

Glad things went well. Try enjoying your sister's wedding and creating new memories with your family and friends. 

Like @farsidejunky said, you have come along way. June will be here before you know it. You have done what most people can't seem willing to do, that is to get rid of the crazy.

You will be fine.


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## MrW

House is sold and closed on, now just one more round of bills to spilt. 

I will try to focus on making new memories, hopeful this weekend (my sister's wedding) goes great. I will just have to play it by ear.


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## MrW

Update, I know its been a while since I last posted, after spending way more than I expected (to tell you the truth my lawyers didnt expect that much either) we settled a week before our court date, the sad thing is it was the exact amount that was discussed the first time my lawyers met with hers and the original hearing. I am glad that is over and I am able to move on with my life. I got a promotion at work, renting my own place, and finally realizing how stressed I was living with my exWife. Hearing the things my friends truely thought of her were interesting, the stories they had. It didnt take long to build my relationships with old friends, looking forward to the holiday season! and maybe start dating soon, with a new outlook and lessons learned....

havent heard from my ex other then a few snyde text messages. I owe no allomy and I got to keep most my retirement, the dog, 95% of my possesions, and my sanity!! Thanks for helping me through this


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## 3Xnocharm

Awesome update W! Onward to a happier life!


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