# One thing at a time - letting go



## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

I'm trying to divide and conquer our issues, or at least determine whether they can be conquered or if they're simply insurmountable.

So I've been reading about forgiveness and letting go, to start, since that could be on me. And that's obviously pretty important. I would say that I have forgiven H's incidents, but H would say that I haven't because there are consequences to our M. That has me wondering.

I hear people all the time advise, "let the past go, live in the present." And I think I'm doing that. I can live in the present, _with_ the past, but I can't pretend like the past didn't happen. For example, I have forgiven my H for not cleaning his office when I asked repeatedly, for leaving his shoes in the hallway for me to trip over, for losing the tax receipts or the car keys or not paying the bills on time. The actual incidents are irrelevant to me anymore, but I'm left with "knowing" my H as the man he has shown me to be. He's a disorganized mess. It's not malicious or intentional on his part, it's his personality and really hasn't changed as long as I've known him. Honestly, it just doesn't seem to bother him, nor does the fact that it bothers me seem to have any real impact on him either. He's very easy going and just thinks I'm anal (No, I think I have a twisted ankle from tripping over his shoes, and the IRS is a little insistent on getting their paperwork.) So now, I live my daily life as if he's a disorganized mess. I do things to cover his arse in an attempt to avoid issues, but he finds that disrespectful.

A bigger issue is his history of lying. There have been a number of incidents where he has bold-faced lied to me. One incident was the EA. Another was when he lied to me to protect his sister, several others regarding his kids (my steps.) He lied to me about how much a game of golf was going to cost because he knew we couldn't afford it but wanted to save face with his more-affluent friends. There's more riddled throughout our M, but again, the actual incidents are irrelevant today. What lingers is my belief that he will very likely lie to me again if he finds himself in an uncomfortable situation, that being the potential for him not getting to have/do what he wants. Of course, he finds it completely disrespectful that I believe this about him, and resents my checking up after him.

I'm sure these issues aren't extreme for what problems other people have in their M's. Other people "get past it." How? I feel like I would be the biggest fool to believe he would be different (he hasn't to-date), not to mention the twisted ankles and the hassle of lost receipts I would have to deal with if I didn't accept what I've learned about him.

We discussed the issue of the late payments and lost paperwork with a counselor. Her suggestion was that *I* do it instead, since I'm better at it. The only real issue I have with that suggestion is that after taking over everything I'm "better at," there's little left for H to do to foster an inter-dependent M. Then I begin to feel like I have another child instead of a partner. More feelings of disrespect, more complaint by H without any real change.

Does "letting it go" mean I act like I don't know these things? What am I missing? What do other people do that lets them get through things without long-term ramifications?


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

Have a plan and have a goal.

Otherwise check your screenname


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Thanks, T2F. I'm trying to come up with that plan.

Got any suggestions? Recommendations for what works for you and your W?

ETA: LOL! Your screen name and mine seem to have the same theme...


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## VeggieMom (Jun 25, 2013)

I am sorry for what you are living with, and what you have had to endure. I can very much relate to what you are saying and it sounds a little bit like my H. I am still new here and the great folks are giving me a long and useful list of things to read.

I remember two times when I was hurt because my H put breakable things up on top of boxes in our closet. I am shorter than him and when I went to get the box down, the breakable thing slid down and hit me on the head. The first time was an accident and I told him about it and he said sorry. I said please don't put things up there like that. About a month later I went to lift the same box down and a picture frame slid down and the corner hit my head and then it fell to the floor and the glass broke. Again, he was sorry but I had learned my lesson not to trust him. Was this a bad quality that I did not forgive and forget? No, it was survival and smarts on my part. Now whenever I lift a box down I get the big ladder and I look to see if anything is there before I take the box. And guess what? About half the time I find something like a book or a picture frame shoved on top of the box. 

One book I read on my own through MC is How Can I Forgive You? because H was telling me that the past was the past, and I need to not hold onto grudges and I need to "give him a chance to change." Well, the problem is that the past is often an indicator of future behavior. And his promises to change did not last, so the past became the present.

And then, the bigger picture is that he is shifting the blame from himself and his lack of responsibility, to me being angry at him for it. Why am I so angry and frustrated? Because he doesn't do what he says he's going to do, and what we need to have him do as a partner in the marriage. I don't have an anger problem. He has a lack of responsibility problem, which would make anyone angry and frustrated.

The books I'm reading now is Living with the Passive Aggressive Man. From what I read in your post you may have some of that going on with your husband, too. It might be worth it to check that book out and see. It's been so eye opening and empowering for me and in just a couple of days I've made some good choices and set some boundaries.

I hope you find this forum as supportive and helpful as I have.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

That does sound very similar, VeggieMom. (Vegetarian? Me too!  )

I'll have to check out your thread to see what people are telling you. I'm at a complete loss myself.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> Thanks, T2F. I'm trying to come up with that plan.
> 
> Got any suggestions? Recommendations for what works for you and your W?
> 
> ETA: LOL! Your screen name and mine seem to have the same theme...


The basics..

Outline specifically what you want changed
Listen to your spouse and do your best to change when they push back about you.
Communicate
Give the other spouse time.
Set a deadline for an acceptable marriage.
Do your best until then.
Once deadline is crossed you flip the switch and/or leave.

Its a reasonable process with results over time. Lots of waiting for change then change. You at least learn to communicate which is usually at the forefront of the issue.

I know my wife and I are on the same wavelength and I know she won't cross that deadline without permanent change.


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## VeggieMom (Jun 25, 2013)

Go Vegetarians!  Been veg for 14 years.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

VeggieMom said:


> Go Vegetarians!  Been veg for 14 years.


Poor plants.


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## VeggieMom (Jun 25, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> Poor plants.


haha!


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## VeggieMom (Jun 25, 2013)

Trying2figureitout said:


> The basics..
> 
> Outline specifically what you want changed
> Listen to your spouse and do your best to change when they push back about you.
> ...


Great way to outline the plan! I am kinda on that plan now, except I have made the choice not to leave just yet. I also have put into place my exit plan if needed and that is very empowering.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> I do things to cover his arse in an attempt to avoid issues, but he finds that disrespectful.


As a first step, I suggest you stop doing this. Make him feel the consequences of his actions. Yes, protect yourself, especially from the IRS, but otherwise leave it up to him. If he can't find something in the mess, don't help him. Move stuff out of your way, but don't clean up his stuff. Maybe have a place where you put stuff (a trash bag or a room). Put his stuff there when it gets in your way. Again, don't help him find it.

Make it crystal clear that if he can't be bothered to take care of his stuff, you sure the heck are not going to do any differently.


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## VeggieMom (Jun 25, 2013)

Here is some quick reading that really opened my eyes:

Passive Aggressive Behavior: A Form of Covert Abuse

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ses-let-you-know-your-spouse-is-being-passive


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## VeggieMom (Jun 25, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> As a first step, I suggest you stop doing this. Make him feel the consequences of his actions. Yes, protect yourself, especially from the IRS, but otherwise leave it up to him. If he can't find something in the mess, don't help him. Move stuff out of your way, but don't clean up his stuff. Maybe have a place where you put stuff (a trash bag or a room). Put his stuff there when it gets in your way. Again, don't help him find it.
> 
> Make it crystal clear that if he can't be bothered to take care of his stuff, you sure the heck are not going to do any differently.


Yes!! 

I just informed my H that I am no longer going to be using our bathroom. I am going to be using the kid's bathroom. He is a slob, and we have an agreement (even marked on the calendar) that each of us is to clean the bathroom every other weekend. Well, he makes 10000 excuses not to clean it on his weeks. All altruistic things of course, like he had to go shopping, take the kids out, etc. I can be understanding once in awhile but not all the time. If I point out the bathroom is a mess he will point to the tube of toothpaste on my sink and tell me I did not pick up my stuff, either. When his side is splattered, gross, and has all kinds of things out. So, he can just live with his own mess and no more excuses, blaming and such. When I told him of my decision today, he said "As you wish." Not "Wow I'm sorry it got to this. I can see you are frustrated."

I no longer have to live in his mess, and he no longer has me to blame/nag about it. Boundary set. I also will fill up a bin with his stuff, been doing it for years. He is upset but now he knows not to leave his stuff out unless he wants it in the bin. Per my other thread- just bought some personal cooking pans so I can use them and clean them, not have to clean out his cooking mess that he left in the pans.

Once, I came home to a huuuuuge sink of dirty dishes with dried on food, complete with flies. I had been at work for three days or sleeping (I work 12 hour shifts) and this had built up. This was a pattern that had been going on for awhile. I put all of it into a plastic tote with a lid on it and texted him to tell him I needed to cook dinner but all the dishes were in the way of my food prep, so they were in the tote container. I did not make that mess and I was not going to clean it up. He was mad about it and said I had an anger problem, but he soaked the dishes and washed them. It took him quite a while too.  And I told him I would do it again next week, too. He has been good ever since about not leaving dishes in the sink like that. I don't mind rinsed off dishes stacked up, I just don't want nasty dried on food dishes. I set my boundary and he followed it.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

> Outline specifically what you want changed
> Listen to your spouse and do your best to change when they push back about you.
> Communicate
> Give the other spouse time.
> ...


I believe I'm on step "do your best until then." H is conflict averse and doesn't want to talk about our problems anymore. He knows my deadline of when son(13) goes off to college. That just seems to make him complacent, like he has plenty of time, but I'm quite certain it'll be too late before then. In the meantime, I'm just trying to make sure I'm covering all my contributions to the problems.



> As a first step, I suggest you stop doing this. Make him feel the consequences of his actions. Yes, protect yourself, especially from the IRS, but otherwise leave it up to him. If he can't find something in the mess, don't help him. Move stuff out of your way, but don't clean up his stuff. Maybe have a place where you put stuff (a trash bag or a room). Put his stuff there when it gets in your way. Again, don't help him find it.


Already am for the most part. It's difficult, because it requires me to live in an environment that's messier than I would like, but I get by that by imagining what my future home might look like. And then there are some things that I can't avoid, like when he loses the keys to _my_ car, where if I don't pick up after him, then _I'm_ the one to suffer.

VeggieMom, love what you're doing with the bathroom!!! Want to bet he starts cleaning it regularly now?

Anyone have feedback on the initial post? Does my response/reaction qualify as "letting go?" Should it look different?


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

> If I point out the bathroom is a mess he will point to the tube of toothpaste on my sink and tell me I did not pick up my stuff, either. When his side is splattered, gross, and has all kinds of things out.


This ^^^^ sure resonated with me! There's no "degree of offensiveness." If I'm anything short of PERFECT, he uses it as his defense for his behavior, even though his is 10 times worse.


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## VeggieMom (Jun 25, 2013)

So maddening isn't it?? 

And honestly I don't care if he doesn't clean that bathroom again. I am trying to detach from it. The result right now is not to get him to clean the bathroom. It is to remove myself from being forced to live with his decision not to clean it. And it feels pretty darned good!


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Yes, detachment, a healthy approach to it!


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Slowcreek,
I am a self confessed reformed shrew.
I nagged, complained, begged, got angry, you name it.
Ran around the tornado of a man picking stuff up. 

Eventually, he just tuned me out. Who wouldn't?

IC was a shock to me. If I'm going to be fussy and demand things be done a certain way, then I owned it.

How things are now:
Certain tasks belong to each person. They get done in the way that person sees fit. There is no judging about that. 

Personally, I shut my mouth a lot more. I don't throw stones unless I'm sure part of the mess isn't mine. And the rest I let go. 

My personal stuff? No way in heck do I leave it lying around. It's my stuff, so I take care of it and I know where it is. Problem solved. 

The interesting thing that happened with "house fights" was the less I said, the more he cleaned up. If I left him alone. It take time, though. They have to believe you no really do no longer want to be their mother.

I feel bad about it now. It's quite degrading to a man to be criticized a lot. It starts a self esteem spiral. And gosh I was tired of being angry over stuff I had no control over. Much better now.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> Already am for the most part. It's difficult, because it requires me to live in an environment that's messier than I would like, but I get by that by imagining what my future home might look like. And then there are some things that I can't avoid, like when he loses the keys to _my_ car, where if I don't pick up after him, then _I'm_ the one to suffer.
> 
> VeggieMom, love what you're doing with the bathroom!!! Want to bet he starts cleaning it regularly now?


Can you do what Veggiemom did and create you own space? A SCNP cave, if you will, where you are only allowed and he can't come in? Some place where you don't need to see the results of his actions?



> Anyone have feedback on the initial post? Does my response/reaction qualify as "letting go?" Should it look different?


I think part of it is accept that this is him. He is an adult and he can do what he wants. So when he behaves this way, it is who he is.

I also think letting go, in this situation, involves putting into the relationship as much as he does. Equality is not really possible, but equality is a goal. Certainly equality of effort (my wife and I don't split the sidewalk down the middle for shoveling, but we both keep working until the job is done, even though I shovel faster).


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

deejov, you made me laugh! Is there a support group for shrews-anonymous?

I've stopped complaining. It did nothing to change anything and only contributed to my anger. I spend less time and effort addressing the issue itself than I spent trying to get my H to change, so that in itself is an easy change. I can understand the idea that if I'm going to be "fussy and demand things be done a certain way", then I own it (I have that with the way the towels are folded for some reason.) But I don't think I have to own it as "my way" that the bills should be paid on time to avoid a late fee that we can't afford. 

TG, I have an office, so getting away from it is not the issue. But when we share all the essential living spaces, like the kitchen or bedroom, it's hard to get away from. I'm a visual person, so living in chaos is like listening to music played by an instrument that's out of tune. It actually affects my mood.



> I also think letting go, in this situation, involves putting into the relationship as much as he does.


 I'm not sure I understand this. Are you suggesting I lie as much as he does? I'm going to guess that's not what you're suggesting. But even beyond that, for me to put as much as he does into our R means I would have to drop my efforts significantly.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Yes, drop your efforts is the message.
"dont' throw eggs at a closed door".

It should be a boundary to give more than you getting, in some situations. One does not ask for morel they match what they give to what they are getting. That saves a LOT of resentments.

It's not tit for tat. It's just the truth, applied in real life.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

> "dont' throw eggs at a closed door".


LOL! I'm not familiar with that one. Is there a reason to throw eggs at an open door? I think you would be a hoot to talk to IRL!

The problem with doing things "equitably" is that not everyone sees their contribution the same. I watched a documentary where the H was convinced he contributed equally to household chores, but when he and his W were tracked, it was more like 20/80 in the W's favor. This is how it is with my H. He thinks he's Mr. Wonderful. Me, not so much. I've backed off of doing much of anything in our M, and I don't ask anything of H, so I think we're pretty even. H isn't happy about it.

But I'm trying not to focus on his behavior. I just want to know if I'm approaching forgiveness/acceptance in the right manner.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> LOL! I'm not familiar with that one. Is there a reason to throw eggs at an open door? I think you would be a hoot to talk to IRL!
> 
> The problem with doing things "equitably" is that not every sees their contribution the same. I watched a documentary where the H was convinced he contributed equally to household chores, but when he and his W were tracked, it was more like 20/80 in the W's favor. This is how it is with my H. He thinks he's Mr. Wonderful. Me, not so much. I've backed off of doing much of anything in our M, and I don't ask anything of H, so I think we're pretty even. H isn't happy about it.


Then show him it is not equitable. Track things, then drop to meet what he adds. Nothing breeds resentment like doing more than your spouse. So give the effort that he gives.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

> Then show him it is not equitable.


 That just comes across as criticism. He doesn't take criticism well. He doesn't even take it well if I simply have a different opinion.

But again, that's about him. If he wanted direction for change, he could come here and ask questions himself. I'm just trying to grasp things from my side, specifically what forgiveness and acceptance looks like. I'm trying to keep it to one thing at a time, because it's a BIG can of worms to try to address all at once.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> That just comes across as criticism. He doesn't take criticism well. He doesn't even take it well if I simply have a different opinion.
> 
> But again, that's about him. If he wanted direction for change, he could come here and ask questions himself. I'm just trying to grasp things from my side, specifically what forgiveness and acceptance looks like. I'm trying to keep it to one thing at a time, because it's a BIG can of worms to try to address all at once.


Track it for yourself, to make sure that you are being reasonable in your conclusions (remember, it is human nature to over-count your contributions while under-counting others contributions). Then, drop your effort to meet his. When he asks you, just tell him what you are doing. No accusations or requests that he change, merely a statement that you understand and are now doing what he is.


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## DaytoDay (Jun 23, 2013)

Okay, I can do that regarding equity with the chores.

But how does that help me to understand if I'm being healthy in my approach to forgiving and letting it go? (ie. lies, inconsideration, EA, loyalty issues, financial irresponsibility, etc.)


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

It's not really about being equal in chores, I was more poking at how much effort each puts into the relationship.

The house stuff has to be done.

The marriage requires effort and work. 


When one starts measuring... you need a baseline.
Your needs, his needs.
If you go all out to meet his needs, and he doesn't do the same, that's where you can lower your giving.

But he needs to know what the expectations are.


"meeting your partner's needs" is not just a job one does to keep a healthy relationship. It's how you show you love your spouse, in actions.


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## toomuchtotell (May 13, 2013)

deejov said:


> Slowcreek,
> I am a self confessed reformed shrew.
> I nagged, complained, begged, got angry, you name it.
> Ran around the tornado of a man picking stuff up.
> ...


I too have noticed that nagging and complaining gets you nowhere, and in fact makes things worse. All it does it make him think of me as annoying, and it starts fights. My husband and I are both pretty messy people, so we decided to divide certain tasks that just made sense. For example, I do the food shopping and cooking, he does the dishes. Seemed easy enough, but his idea of doing the dishes is doing them once a week. And we have a dishwasher so there's no excuse! Everytime I go to prepare dinner I have to move dirty dishes out of the way. It's disgusting (and if I think it's disgusting, it really must be!). Over the last week, we've been having problems with ants coming in the house and getting into our garbage can. Well, since hubby refuses to clean up the kitchen after dinner, I wake up in the morning to find ants crawling all over our kitchen counter. I was late for work 2 days in a row because I had to spend half my morning killing and disposing of hordes of ants while hubby whisked himself off to work early. 
My IC counselor told me to stopping making him dinner or shopping for him unless he does the dishes regularly. I realized he doesn't do the dishes because he doesn't have to. Well, that's going to change!


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

SlowCreek.NoPaddle said:


> Okay, I can do that regarding equity with the chores.
> 
> But how does that help me to understand if I'm being healthy in my approach to forgiving and letting it go? (ie. lies, inconsideration, EA, loyalty issues, financial irresponsibility, etc.)


I don't think you can start letting go until you start feeling that things are fair, or at least moving that way. Letting go when you are still resentful over current conduct is like draining the sink while the faucet is on. The water level stays the same. So turn off the faucet before you start unplug the drain.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

toomuchtotell said:


> his idea of doing the dishes is doing them once a week. And we have a dishwasher so there's no excuse!
> My IC counselor told me to stopping making him dinner or shopping for him unless he does the dishes regularly. I realized he doesn't do the dishes because he doesn't have to. Well, that's going to change!


I've done this too. I let him know that since our arrangement wasn't working in a way that I liked, it would be easier for us to just go solo for meals. 

It took a whole two weeks of solo meals, but he came up with another arrangement. (him, not me). On the days he works 12 hr shifts, I do all of it. On his days off, he's responsible for all of it. 
He's not as clean as me. He lets stuff pile up. He has to put money in a jar when he doesn't do it the same day. I used the money recently to buy myself something. I've never put money in his jar. And he checks 

The jars have labels. The MAID fund.


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