# No win situation....



## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

I'm so tired of this. My LD wife is just ridiculous. Not only does she expect me to be happy that she is LD, she expects me to act perfectly happy when she withholds it.

I used to get mad after being rejected and I used to hold a grudge the next day. I dont do that anymore. I'm not mad, but i'm not happy either. Where as before I would be visibly upset and very short with her, now i'm just quiet, dont spend as much time with her, and just not as loving as I normally would be. I cant help that being rejected is hurtful and her withholding sex frustrates me. 

I do my best not to show my anger/frustration but she totally expects me to be happy even after countless rejections. She actually told me that shes not my sex slave. I didnt know trying to have sex once or twice a week with your wife is considered needing a sex slave.....

How do some of you in a HD/LD marriage do it? I'm rejected more now than i ever was going up to women when i was single. Sex was easier to get with a woman i just met than it is now with my wife. 

And before you ask, her having an affair is out. I handle all financials an IT guy so i know the ends and outs of every piece of equipment she has. Her technical skills maxed with logging into facebook everyday. There is no way in hell she could pull it off.

So the problem is either medical, which if it is she refuses to have it looked in to, or its me. I was overweight and have been getting back into shape (no thanks to her trying to sabotage my efforts). I"m pretty much back in shape but not much has changed....

I am looking for advice and how to handle this. I dont know whats worse....getting rejected by your wife or your wife expecting you to be completely happy after she rejected you for a tv show on dvr....


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Go to Married Man Sex Life | How to have the marriage you thought you were going to have. By which I mean doing it like rabbits. and run the Marriage Action Plan (MAP).


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Has she always been LD? How old is she? Does she show you any affection outside the bedroom? Is she on any medication?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

You could always do what my friend did and withhold affection from her the way she withholds sex from you. It worked for him, she met in the middle, which is what marriage is supposed to be all about.

Many LD women tend to prefer affection over sex. Even out the playing field.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

mineforever said:


> Has she always been LD? How old is she? Does she show you any affection outside the bedroom? Is she on any medication?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



When we were dating, it was awesome. Gave and received oral, incredible sex. I thought i hit the lottery. Beautiful woman who enjoyed sex and blew my socks off. We've been married for 7 years and its been slowly going down hill. 

I love yous are few and far between, passionate kissing is rarely done unless i make it a point to do, and even then i have to make her. She does show affection like wanting to cuddle while watching tv, and making comments how she loves when we and the kids are watching our shows together, she makes more of a point to hug me in the morning after she has rejected me then gets mad when i have zero interest in hugging her tight like i normally do. 

Its just that she has almost every excuse in the book when it comes to not having sex. Shes to tired is the main one even though she goes to work out every damn day at the gym for 1-2 hours. Never to tired for that. Her friends meet up once a week for a couple of drinks...never to tired for that...staying up late if something has her interest on tv...never to tired for that....if i make a move, "no i'm to tired". 

I planned a vacation getaway for us next weekend and thats been her excuse to not have sex all week. And shes not doing it to build excitement, shes doing it to have an excuse. 

I've told her there is a problem. Either its me or you. Either shes not attracted to me and doesnt get excited by me or she has a medical problem and needs to get checked out. She says its not me but refuses to get herself checked out.

So basically there is a problem. Still dont know whether its me or her, although its very hard to not take it personally. Either way, she has no intention to solve it. To make matters worse, she expects me to accept it and not ever be upset about it. If I get upset or withdraw, she blames me for ruining things and makes me out to be the bad guy.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My STBXW was very much like that. Note the STBX part... The fact that she wasn't willing to work with me on it or work on her own issues was the biggest reason for me deciding to separate. 

I'm currently in a relationship with someone who actually enjoys intimacy with me, and all I can say is that I regret not taking action sooner. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

PBear said:


> My STBXW was very much like that. Note the STBX part... The fact that she wasn't willing to work with me on it or work on her own issues was the biggest reason for me deciding to separate.
> 
> I'm currently in a relationship with someone who actually enjoys intimacy with me, and all I can say is that I regret not taking action sooner.
> 
> ...


I fear that this could be the downfall. I cant imagine it getting better with age. I assume its only going to get worse. She is a selfish woman and she knows it. She honestly expects me to take rejection and be happy about it. She tells me all the time shes not my sex slave and that i want her legs open 24/7. 

I tell her I didnt know that a husband wanting sex twice a week was considered having a sex slave.


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## just_about_done (Feb 6, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> I'm so tired of this. My LD wife is just ridiculous. Not only does she expect me to be happy that she is LD, she expects me to act perfectly happy when she withholds it.
> 
> She doesn't see what the problem is. She doesn't understand how anyone could want sex "so often."
> 
> ...


I feel ya, brother. I've about had it with my wife. The way I see it, if she's unwilling to at least get checked out, you have some choices. Get used to it, seperate, or cheat. The MAP could work if your sex rank is lower than hers. But really to me that seems like she's just giving sex so you don't leave, which is not at all what I want. I doubt it's what you're wanting either.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

She honestly believes that this is how marriage is. At least thats what she says. Everytime i bring up her LD, she says "welcome to eing married". I tried kissing her passionately the other day and her response was "okay we're not in high school anymore". 

Forget oral. She says its disgusting now that we are married. Married couples dont do that and i know my chances of winning the lottery twice are better than ever getting a BJ from her again. I love giving oral but everytime i venture down on her she gets ticklish before i even touch her and she doesnt let me do it.

Honestly, sex with her has gone from passionate and exciting to just going through the motions.

I know this will never get fixed. To add insult to injury the fact that she blames me for being upset about it. She accepts no responsibility and makes me out to be the bad guy for being upset at rejection. Cheating is out of the question, at the very least because of our child. I dont want this to end our marriage but I fear it will as age will only make it worse. I cant imagine how bad she will be at 50 when shes this bad already.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Well it definately sounds like there is something going on. It could be one of two things emotional or physical. I would start with the physical, she needs to go talk to the Dr. How is your relationship outside the bedroom? Sometimes you just have to give the other person a gentle push to get them going. Will she go if you ask her nicely or do you have to be demanding? My hubster is a stubborn bull dog, it has to be his idea or it is wrong. I have to have all my facts and data lined up for a battle with him if I am going to talk to him about his behavior. I went for 2 yrs with no sex due to him being under extreme stress and suffering from ED. I finally decided one day that the only way things were going to change was if we had "that conversation". 

Here was my approach was simple, when we got home from work I sat him down on the sofa and on t he coffee table was a whole bunch. f research and books about ED and pleasuring your man. I handed him two pieces of paper...one with a MC counselors name and address and the other an attorney. Told him I loved him and was willing to do what ever it would take to fix our relationship, whatever the issue I would support him...but it was his choice, we were not staying status quo though. It has been a journey that we are still on...some good , some bad...but definately worth it. I am a strong believer in giving people choices...if it is there decision they are much more receptive to change....and it takes you out of the "demanding overbearing spouse" seat. Now your giving her a choice...keep in mind it can back fire and she may choose to leave, that is a risk you have to be willing to take. My point isn't that you should follow my approach it is sometimes you have to jolt people out of their comfort zone to get them to move. Also choice is always a better approach then dictating. Best wishes to you whatever approach you try...just keep trying don't settle.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

^^ She thinks i want a sex slave. She thinks this is how marriage is. She is going to turn 40 and loves the fact that people think shes in her late 20s/early 30s. She wants to act like a younger person. When it comes to bed, she wants to act like shes 90 years old.

Anytime sex is mentioned, she switches off and accuses me of just wanting to use her for sex and wanting her legs open on demand. She will never have herself checked out to see if her LD is related to a health issue. She has no interest to do so. She is perfectly content with her sex drive and couldnt care less to change it. She feels i am being selfish and ridiculous wanting sex more than once a week. She thinks i'm only happy when i'm between her legs. I've tried telling her that i love having sex with her more so for the emotional feeling than the physical, but that doesnt help. 

Like i said, she loves to act and look young. She loves to be fun going and loves that no one thinks she is the age she is. But when it comes to the bedroom, she has no problems acting 40 years her elder.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> She honestly believes that this is how marriage is. At least thats what she says. Everytime i bring up her LD, she says "welcome to eing married".


Strike one.. Note how she makes it clear that not only is that the way it is, but that it's _permanent_.



hawx20 said:


> I tried kissing her passionately the other day and her response was "okay we're not in high school anymore".


Again, a finality to that statement. Strike two.



hawx20 said:


> She says its disgusting now that we are married. Married couples dont do that


And..striiiiiiiiike three. Again.. the same _finality_ to the statement. 



hawx20 said:


> I know this will never get fixed. To add insult to injury the fact that she blames me for being upset about it. She accepts no responsibility ....


And then it get's even worse...



hawx20 said:


> I dont want this to end our marriage


Dude, I'm sorry, but it's game over for you. If she really said those things in that context, then you have been played like a violin at a renascence fair. She hooked you, reeled you in, and then turned on you the minute she had you locked in.

Get out. Now. Fast. It aint your kid, it's hers and she will use it against you for the rest of your life if you let her. You are already financially screwed, assert your parental rights, make sure you get partial custody or very good visitation, and at least live YOUR life. As I see it, she feels your life belongs to her now. Don't let her steal it for the next 18 years.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

hawx20 said:


> When we were dating, it was awesome. ... We've been married for 7 years and its been slowly going down hill.


The good news is that this is typical and can often be fixed. It's when the sex life suddenly changes that problems (affair, bait and switch, etc.) are often too great to be overcome. A gradual decline is usually just a woman losing interest. You may be able to spark her interest again.



hawx20 said:


> ... she makes more of a point to hug me in the morning after she has rejected me then gets mad when i have zero interest in hugging her tight like i normally do.


You can't be passive aggressive like that. Deal with rejection when it happens. If you're still angry the following morning, just push her away and tell her that you have no interest in sharing affection with her because of her rejection of you. That is up front and direct. Women can respect that.



hawx20 said:


> Its just that she has almost every excuse in the book when it comes to not having sex. Shes to tired is the main one ...


That is also typical. There are many couples who have worked past that.



hawx20 said:


> I planned a vacation getaway for us next weekend and thats been her excuse to not have sex all week. And shes not doing it to build excitement, shes doing it to have an excuse.


Get ready for more disappointment. If date nights and vacations have been successful for you in the past, then I guess you can keep them up. However, it sounds like they probably haven't been. In that case, you should stop having date nights and vacations for the purpose of prompting sex.



hawx20 said:


> I've told her there is a problem. Either its me or you. Either shes not attracted to me and doesnt get excited by me or she has a medical problem and needs to get checked out. She says its not me but refuses to get herself checked out.


Because you've talked to her multiple times in the past, with no effect, I recommend you stop talking about this. Either change your behavior, or just quit your whining about sex. More talking to your wife will never change her behavior.

Good luck.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Kaboom, i know you are right. You just didnt say anything i didnt already know or feel.

You shouldnt feel rejected in a marriage. You shouldnt have to question why your wife isnt excited to have sex with you.


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## TOMTEFAR (Feb 23, 2013)

You can't keep living that life.. You will be misserable and resent her more and more. That will not be a good place for a kid to grow up.

I expereinced the same problems you have, although not nearly as severe as you, I got fed upp and had a long talk with my wife about it. Ask her if it will be OK for you to fullfill your needs outside of the marriage since she won't meet you close to halfway. Explain to her that you will not be able to live in a M as your is now. Either you meet with something you both can live with or you D. 

You need to be content with things and you need an environment for your kid that is healthy.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> You can't be passive aggressive like that. Deal with rejection when it happens. If you're still angry the following morning, just push her away and tell her that you have no interest in sharing affection with her because of her rejection of you. That is up front and direct. Women can respect that.
> 
> Good luck.


Thats part of the problem. I do deal with the rejection and the next morning (like yesterday and today) I do exactly what you said. Problem is, she gets pissed off and starts blaming me for ruining the day, being an a-hole, and then accusing me of wanting her to be a sex slave.

This morning when I woke up, i walked into our closet and she instantly comes to give me a hug. I dont hug her back so she hugs me again and tells me to hug her right. I give her a half assed hug and then she gets pissed because I am mad that she didnt give it up. In her eyes, i'm the bad guy for being upset at rejection and i'm an a-hole for not wanting to give her affection when she wants reassurance after she rejected me...again


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

hawx20 said:


> She tells me all the time shes not my sex slave and that i want her legs open 24/7.


This is called a fitness test, or a sh!t test. Women will test men to see if he is fit enough to handle himself. In other words, how much of her sh!t will he accept. Let's see how you handled it.



hawx20 said:


> I tell her I didnt know that a husband wanting sex twice a week was considered having a sex slave.


Ouch! You're going to try to use logic and reason to debate your wife into having more sex with you? Good luck with that approach. Did the debate team at your high school or college score all the chicks?

There are several strategies for passing sh!t tests. You can ignore them without comment. You can simply give her an amused smile. One effective technique is to agree and amplify. Say, "Yes, you are my sex slave. Because of your dereliction of duty, it's time for your flogging. I'll be right back after I find some rope." Smile while you say this. It communicates that you're not taking her seriously. Then swat her on the ass and leave.

Women are attracted to men that they can't upset. They are attracted to men who seem to have mastered their environments.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> This is called a fitness test, or a sh!t test. Women will test men to see if he is fit enough to handle himself. In other words, how much of her sh!t will he accept. Let's see how you handled it.
> 
> 
> Ouch! You're going to try to use logic and reason to debate your wife into having more sex with you? Good luck with that approach. Did the debate team at your high school or college score all the chicks?
> ...


I want to thank you twice. One thanks for making me laugh for the first time in 2 days. Another thanks for giving me a great idea.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

just_about_done said:


> The MAP could work if your sex rank is lower than hers. But really to me that seems like she's just giving sex so you don't leave, which is not at all what I want. I doubt it's what you're wanting either.


Sometimes, the MAP will cause an increase in sex out of fear. But the thing is, women find men with options to be sexier than men without options. The MAP gives men options.

Acknowledging your willingness to leave could well cause your wife to be more attracted to you.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> Sometimes, the MAP will cause an increase in sex out of fear. But the thing is, women find men with options to be sexier than men without options. The MAP gives men options.
> 
> Acknowledging your willingness to leave could well cause your wife to be more attracted to you.


Exactly the case!:iagree:


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

I tried that for a while and it did work. I know its to improve yourself but it just felt like i was playing games. I got married to never have to play games again. 

I guess i got to do what i got to do and start on it again as a way of life. It just sucks to be in this situation.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

hawx20 said:


> She honestly believes that this is how marriage is. At least thats what she says.


First, she may just be coming up with another excuse. Second, you're allowing her to frame the argument. If your wife wanted to argue on whether the Moon is made of cheese, would you have that argument? Of course not.



hawx20 said:


> Cheating is out of the question, at the very least because of our child. I dont want this to end our marriage but I fear it will as age will only make it worse.


Well, you haven't left yourself many options. If you refuse to leave or cheat, then you pretty much are left with the strategy of trying to seduce your wife. You might be able to do it. You might not. If you can't, then your only option is to just learn how to be happy as a celibate man.

The thing is, being willing to leave can actually help to seduce your wife. If you tell your wife up front that you will remain faithful to her and continue to treat her well, regardless of how poorly she treats you, then she really doesn't have much incentive to treat you any better.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Ok she is 40 yrs old, she should be at her sexual peak! Guys, women' sex drive does not go down when they get older it goes UP! Google it and you will discover that if there are no physical issues she should be horney as a 20 yr old male in her 40's...ever heard of the term "cougar". I sometimes think the good Lord has a wicked sence of humor... I have lived it and am here to tell you I could have sex a couple times a day if the hubsters soldier would stand up and salute! Ok done ranting... I'll try for some helpfull comments...sex for the women in her 40's

Early stages of menopause
-sex can be painful (lube is a girls best friend)
- emotional...go to Dr they can give her meds to adjust hormone levels.
- low libido - same go to Dr they can give her meds to adjust her hormone levels.
- Thyroid - hormone central...it is estimated 75 percent of women over 45 yrs old in US suffer from undiagnoised hypothyroidism...go to the Dr.

You need to get her to the Dr for a check up. If she refuses than she has made her decision. If there is nothing physically wrong then MC is the next step. But don't let staying status quo be an option, you both deserve better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

hawx20 said:


> Thats part of the problem. I do deal with the rejection and the next morning (like yesterday and today) I do exactly what you said. Problem is, she gets pissed off and starts blaming me for ruining the day, being an a-hole, and then accusing me of wanting her to be a sex slave.


It's expected that she will pitch a fit. She didn't get her way. As you said, she wants you to act the way the wants you to and she wants you to pretend that it's your idea. But you don't have to.

Look, think of your wife like a small child. If a small child tells you he wants 12 cookies for breakfast, you will tell him no. And he will probably pitch a fit. But that doesn't mean that it has to upset you. It's just a child being a child. It's to be expected. Eventually, if you're consistent in how YOU behave and discipline him, he'll pitch fewer and fewer fits.



hawx20 said:


> This morning when I woke up, i walked into our closet and she instantly comes to give me a hug. I dont hug her back so she hugs me again and tells me to hug her right. I give her a half assed hug and then she gets pissed because I am mad that she didnt give it up. In her eyes, i'm the bad guy for being upset at rejection and i'm an a-hole for not wanting to give her affection when she wants reassurance after she rejected me...again


Right she's pitching a fit. You had two choices that would have been acceptable. First, you could have hugged her as if nothing happened. Second, you could have refused to hug her and maintained your position that you're not interested in being her platonic BFF. Ironically, you tried to split the difference and gave her what she wanted most.

Your wife wants to be able to dictate the terms of your sex life. She also wants to know that you desire her and only her. You're giving her exactly that. By accepting her rejections, but being passive aggressive in hugging her only reluctantly, she knows that she maintains absolute control of you.

If you refused to hug her, she would worry that you are beginning to throw off her control, but she would still be assured that you desire her. If you hugged her as if nothing was wrong, she would wonder if you were upset at her rejection, and thus whether you still desired her.

Good luck.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

Dear Mr. Hawk,

Considering these symtomps:



hawx20 said:


> When we were dating, it was awesome. Gave and received oral, incredible sex. I thought i hit the lottery. Beautiful woman who enjoyed sex and blew my socks off. We've been married for 7 years and its been slowly going down hill.
> I love yous are few and far between, passionate kissing is rarely done unless i make it a point to do, and even then i have to make her.


And her reaction:


hawx20 said:


> I fear that this could be the downfall. I cant imagine it getting better with age. I assume its only going to get worse. She is a selfish woman and she knows it. She honestly expects me to take rejection and be happy about it. She tells me all the time shes not my sex slave and that i want her legs open 24/7.
> 
> *I tell her I didnt know that a husband wanting sex twice a week was considered having a sex slave*.


And also these opinion of her:


hawx20 said:


> She honestly believes that this is how marriage is. At least thats what she says. Everytime i bring up her LD, she says "welcome to eing married". I tried kissing her passionately the other day and her response was "okay we're not in high school anymore".
> 
> Forget oral. She says its disgusting now that we are married.


And considering her selfishness and her contentment on being selfish:


hawx20 said:


> ^^ She thinks i want a sex slave. She thinks this is how marriage is. She is going to turn 40 and loves the fact that people think shes in her late 20s/early 30s. She wants to act like a younger person. When it comes to bed, she wants to act like shes 90 years old.
> 
> Anytime sex is mentioned, she switches off and accuses me of just wanting to use her for sex and wanting her legs open on demand. She will never have herself checked out to see if her LD is related to a health issue. She has no interest to do so. She is perfectly content with her sex drive and couldnt care less to change it.


And listen to this, what OTHER WOMAN is telling you (if woman are not taking the sides of her fellow woman but taking your side, it usually means she's being objective and tells you like it is)



SeaMaiden said:


> But from what you have said about her and her comments to you "welcome to being married" and "married people don't do that" - *I tend to think she's lost interest in you. And you don't deserve to live a life like that, you DO deserve to be appreciated for who you are and loved by someone.*


I think what happened here is a Classic case of Bait And Switch (TM), a problem which are very common when a nice man is being married to a not-so-nice woman.

The only known cure is a divorce. Read what Mrs. SeaMaiden wrote above especially in BOLD.

BTW, If you are content being rejected and insulted for the rest of your life, if you're happy that your sexual needs worth nothing to your wife, then don't take my advice and Mrs. SeaMaiden's advice. It's your life, after all.

Sorry for my pessimism.  I hope optimist people will chime in to counter my pessimism.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

hawx20 said:


> This morning when I woke up, i walked into our closet and she instantly comes to give me a hug. I dont hug her back so she hugs me again and tells me to hug her right. I give her a half assed hug and then she gets pissed because I am mad that she didnt give it up. In her eyes, i'm the bad guy for being upset at rejection and i'm an a-hole for not wanting to give her affection when she wants reassurance after she rejected me...again


"Wife, you've made it perfectly clear that you don't want the type of marriage where we meet each other's emtional needs. So get off me."


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

How often do you actually have sex, and does she enjoy it when you do?

If you'd be satisfied with once or twice a week sex, can you bring it up only once or twice a week and she'd want it then? Or does she only want it once a month or never?

Since she likes going out, do you two go out together? Do you have fun dates and have a good time when you're out? That often leads to better sex.

Is she on birth control pills? Those can lower a woman's libido.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You look at it as she is low drive and all of this. She belives this or that about marriage.

A better way of looking at it, is she is giving you a test, to see if you are worthy of receiveing her sexualit. You are failing the test. The reason you are failing the test is you are allowing her to define the marriage as a place where she does not have to meet your emotional needs but she expects you meet hers. A place where she can do whatever she wants, and in response you "try harder".. A place where wive's who have sex are sex slaves. A place where their husbands who want sex are perverts.

You have to stop engaging in any conversation that allows this definition of marraige to perpetuate and adopt and attidue internally and verabally to her that:

-- I am a man, and my emotional needs in marriage are sexual needs.. and that's how I am wired and that's how it will always be, and I embrace it.

-- I meet your needs of X, Y, Z, and expect in our marriage I will have my needs met. I enjoy meeting your needs.

-- In my marriage I will not be my wife's doormat. Meaning, if she does not want to meet my emotional needs, that frees me up from bothering to meet her emtional needs... And that is quite fine by me.

-- Marriages are sexual relationships... No other relationship in life is sexual, and there can be no marriage if the relationship is not sexual.

-- It is your choice wife whether you want to be a wife that meets her husbands needs or a wife that does not. But I am not your doormat.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

hawx,

As you've speculated, there's no way in hel1 this will get better by itself over time. You've made the decision to stay because of your child and she knows it. You've given away any leverage you had

Here are some things that may help you live with this situation since it seems you've chosen to follow this path (not critizing you for it. My situation, while no where near as bad has me making a similar choice)

-Start going out with your friends to do things WITHOUT her
-Start or get back into hobbies that you may have given up. Go fishing or hunting or whatever it was you used to like to do. Hel1, by a motorcycle if you're so inclined!
-Stop doing all the nice "extra" things you do for her like complimenting her, holding her hand in public, etc. Withdraw all acts of intimacy since she is doing the same to you.

She shows no respect for your needs and wants and constantly dismisses you.

Honestly, I would consider leaving her for that reason alone! However, you seem to have chosen to go another way. Would you consider a seperation from her as a way of shocking her to action?


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

PhtLump had some great advice. If doing those things doesn't change her behavior, then you take the other approach someone else mentioned. You make an appointment to see a marriage/sex therapist and you tell her to be there if she wants to stay married to you. She'll get really mad so take it like Phtlump says and pretend she is a child who doesn't want to go to the doctor. 

It's important that you understand and she explains why she no longer wants to have sex in an environment that makes her feel safe to be honest as well as necessary to be honest. Finding the right therapist is also tricky so if the first one doesn't work out, try again.
I know too many couples who are in your situation and someone is always tempted to cheat or you become roommates instead of husband and wife. It is a volatile situation which needs to be addressed as I'm sure you know.


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## Kaboom (Feb 6, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> Kaboom, i know you are right. You just didnt say anything i didnt already know or feel.
> 
> You shouldnt feel rejected in a marriage. You shouldnt have to question why your wife isnt excited to have sex with you.


Precisely. I'm a very up-front kind of guy. I put the cards on the table, cut the games, the excuses, and talk. If she can't do that, then she clearly isn't interested in solving the problem. 

I've seen it happen where a woman has a martyr complex, and can't be the "bad guy" by leaving you, so she would intentionally sabotage the relationship and wait for you to finally leave her, and then blame it all on you. This could be the case as well. Just guessing, but man.. I feel for you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

PHT,
Great advice. 

Hawx,
You have to see your wife as 'different' than you in order to solve this. She is very different than you are. 

First of all, some empathy is in order. At the moment, she doesn't really like having sex with you. That is a difficult situation for her to be in. Because she is constantly having to avoid, duck, fend off and delay your advances. 

It is very likely that you can solve this by being:
- less available and (do you go out with friends once a week? Do you have a hobby?)
- more attractive

I do think it is ok to be 'less loving' in a situation where your wife is demonizing you for having a higher sex drive. Generally 'less loving' in my book means that you initiate less in her love languages. The goal is to create an emotional space for her to feel desire. 

No offense but do you really know what your wife likes in bed? Maybe she prefers to just be 'taken' a couple times a week. Don't talk about it. Don't ask permission. Don't telegraph it ahead of time. 

Most women - respond well if you are playful and dominant at the same time. 

My 'hobby' is linguistic patterns. 
- if you are generally very kind (this is a good thing, I am also)
- and your kindness is a core part of a gentle, soft love making style 
Then
There is a VERY good chance she uses the term 'sex slave' because she finds the idea of being 'taken' a turn on

This means she would find wrestling a turn on as long as you are good at it. Being good mainly means - showing no pain - over powering her without injuring her. 



QUOTE=PHTlump;1483994]This is called a fitness test, or a sh!t test. Women will test men to see if he is fit enough to handle himself. In other words, how much of her sh!t will he accept. Let's see how you handled it.


Ouch! You're going to try to use logic and reason to debate your wife into having more sex with you? Good luck with that approach. Did the debate team at your high school or college score all the chicks?

There are several strategies for passing sh!t tests. You can ignore them without comment. You can simply give her an amused smile. One effective technique is to agree and amplify. Say, "Yes, you are my sex slave. Because of your dereliction of duty, it's time for your flogging. I'll be right back after I find some rope." Smile while you say this. It communicates that you're not taking her seriously. Then swat her on the ass and leave.

Women are attracted to men that they can't upset. They are attracted to men who seem to have mastered their environments.[/QUOTE]


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

thanks for the advice everyone. I did the MAP for a while on her and even the 180 plan and it did work. Problem is I just dont want to follow a set of rules. I just want to be myself, whether that be alpha or beta I dont care.

I guess i'll go back to the MAP and stick to it. Its a shame I just cant be the person she married but I guess some people mistake jealousy or the danger of losing someone as excitement and desire.

For me, the more she wants me makes me desire her more. For her, it seems the less I desire her the more she wants me. Some people just like the hard way i guess and dont realize how good they have it.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

I'm reading "mating in captivity" and it talks about how the security of marriage can kill the ignition for passion and desire. It may not be a matter of your wife not realizing what she has but just the nature of love and marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Just an update....

We fought all day yesterday through text and semi made up before fighting over the phone on the way home. She gave all the reasons she was so tired half of which was work/kids/home and the others were things she does for fun which she stated she wouldnt give up once a week because she loves doing it.

Making love to her husband was not one of the things she loved doing and, without directly saying it, she made it clear that everything came first, sex was dead last.

We have a weekend getaway coming up which is bought and paid for. I swallowed my pride and made the move to make up with her just for the sake of the trip. I put the kids to bed early, i went to bed early, and she stayed up a while. With no pressure on her, I was curious to see if she would initiate anything. Of course she didnt. This morning i dreaded going into our closet to get ready for work. I knew her "hug test" would be waiting and i didnt feel like touching her. I was surprised at the resentment I had. 

Again, i sucked it up and gave her a real hug for the sake of the trip even though the whole time i was hating it. Before leaving she came over to me and stood next to me waiting for me to hug her again and i sucked it up and did it. It was the first time i resented her and hated touching her. 

I'm doing this just for the sake of the trip. The money is spent and i'm determined to have the best time I can have. Once we get back, its on. When I got married, it had become clear to me all the things i did wrong when i was dating. Its like my mind had opened up and i thought of all the things i did wrong with my exes and how i should have played the game better.

I thought marriage meant the end of games but apparently it doesnt end for some people. I still love my wife and I know she loves me, she has just taken me totally for granted. I plan to change that with this trip and from now on. If it means changing the way I am, then so be it.

It really sucks that being a loving, supportive, and faithful husband/father isnt good enough. She has become to comfortable and taken me for granted so much that she has put me in the back of the list in terms of importance, whether she realizes it or not. I intend to change that before I become divorced and then finally realize how i should have played things differently.


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## john_lord_b3 (Jan 11, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> It really sucks that being a loving, supportive, and faithful husband/father isnt good enough. She has become to comfortable and taken me for granted so much that she has put me in the back of the list in terms of importance, whether she realizes it or not. I intend to change that before I become divorced and then finally realize how i should have played things differently.


:iagree:


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## IsGirl3 (Nov 13, 2012)

good luck letting go of your resentment for this trip. i hope it works out for you and that you have fun. i think you are justified in your anger and your resentment, especially since she is blameshifting. Does she know that your marriage is in danger? Does she know how profoundly unhappy you are? This cannot be sustained. Maybe for a few years. Maybe you'll last til your kid is out of the house, but if things don't change, then the writing is on the wall. You might need to consider getting out. Doing the 180 and other things that have you be someone you are naturally not must be very stressful. Of course it would be good to get in shape, try new hobbies, go out with friends more - those are all good, but if this fails in attracting your wife again, you can't be demonized for simply wanting a nice deep kiss from you wife. She sounds cruel, oblivious to your feelings, uncaring of what is important to you, and so secure in this marriage, that she doesn't even have to try at all - not even the smallest amount. That's not right.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

IsGirl, you are correct.

Fortunately, i'm very good at letting things go. I dont hold grudges. Once i say what i have to say, i'm good.

She doesnt know how unhappy I am. She just thinks i'm pissed off because i didnt get laid. At least thats what she told me. 

Like you said, i think she is so secure in the marriage that she doesnt try at all. However, even though she has the power, its because i've given it to her. 

I know she doesnt want to lose me. I've just made things way to easy for her. I'm the best man she has ever had. I've seen her exes. They were no prizes at all. 

I always said its harder to be treated good in a relationship than it is to be treated bad. When you are treated good, the person has given you power and its so easy to take it for granted. When you are treated bad, you have no power and have to fight for the persons love. Some people just confuse the power with boredom and become to secure. 

I think its time to shake things up and take some security away. Every time i've made steps to improve myself, shes tried to sabotage it. Losing weight and dressing better seemed to shake her a bit and she tried her best to sabotage my weight loss efforts but it didnt work. It sucks that I have to take some security out from my wife, but she brought me to this.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Fighting via text is a recipe for disaster. Please don't do that to yourself. 
It seems putting the effort into getting counseling would be better than putting effort into "games". I know you said she won't go but she also won't have sex with you and you are still trying. Put that much effort into finding out what is really in her head. If she has a history of bad relationships, that needs to be looked into. 
Enjoy your trip.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

I think i'd rather beat my head against a brick wall then try to convince her to go to counseling. She honestly thinks the problem is me. She thinks i'm a hornball who wants sex 24/7.

She knows my drive is high and i've told her that all im asking for is a couple of times a week and to be a bit spontaneous sometimes. If she were willing, i could do it everyday but no way do i expect that. 2 days a week would thrill me, 3 would make me overjoyed but i'm not trying to be greedy...2 will do


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

How often does she want to have sex?


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Your comment about having to be someone your not...be an alpha to have a happy marriage. Food for thought... In every relationship someone is the dominate (alpha)...you both can't lead. At a base level you are having a power struggle with her, you are fighting over who controls/leads the relationship. It sounds like you have been giving her some control and she has latched onto it. Think about it this way, in life most people would like to be boss very few people want to be the grunt employee. 

I am an alpha female and my hubster epitomizes the "nice guy" beta male. That being said from what you have said you don't sound like a beta male to me. My big guy is my lover and best friend. I treasure him for who he is and for being secure enough in himself to allow me to be who I am. So yes you can be yourself in a relationship, but who are you really (alpha or beta)? With more woman in high powered careers there are more and more relationships like mine...but this is still a rarity. My guess is your an alpha that gave up the lead and now its time to wrestle that control back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

norajane said:


> How often does she want to have sex?


He has said earlier that they actually have sex about once a week. But, she never initiates, and always makes it clear that she is only participating out of duty. So, basically, she never wants to have sex with him.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

If it were up to her, we would probably do it about once a month. I never really paid attention to the whole alpha/beta thing until i came to these forums. I know she wants to be led.  She is a beta woman, but with an attitude and selfishness. She looks to me for everything and I do it without problems. She never knows how much money we have. She couldnt begin to tell you if/when bills are paid. She likes to think of herself as a strong fighter but shes not. In reality, she is someone who would take the easy path to avoid confrontation, even if it means losing. I on the other hand am a fighter, who will not give up until my last breath and will fight with everything i have to achieve my goals.

That being said, i am the leader of the family. When she tries to lead, its done out of purely selfish reasons. If she has power, its because I have given it to her by being open, loving, and just basically making her feel to secure...which i never imagined could ever be a bad thing.

I have threatened to leave before and she acts tough at first, but once i start packing clothes she breaks down, tells me how much she loves me, and tries to explain why she is the way she is. 

My goal was to make my wife happy. I do what I can to accomplish that. I want to make her feel loved. I cant begin to tell you how many times I've done things to for her when i'm exhausted and dont want to move. All to make her life easier and show her i love her. Unfortunately for me, she doesnt feel the need to do so as much. When i ask her when the last time she did something for me was, her response is usually either laundry, housework, or cooking...

I want to thank everyone who responded. I know what needs to be done and I will follow through and maintain it from now on. It may not be 100% the way i want to be, but if i have to alter a few things out of my comfort level to have what I need, then so be it.


I'll just never understand why some people cant appreciate what they have and it takes fear of losing it for them to open their eyes....


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

PHTlump said:


> He has said earlier that they actually have sex about once a week. But, she never initiates, and always makes it clear that she is only participating out of duty. So, basically, she never wants to have sex with him.


That sounds like passive agressive behavior...especially compared to her other behavior. Notice how she wants a hug in the morning, it validates he still wants her no matter how badly she treats him. Notice how much she enjoys people noticing how young she looks for her age. Me thinks if he showed her less affection and spent some time doing things he enjoyed without her and let her know he was fine without her attention....she would turn around fast. She likes attention... being wanted..desired..take that away and she will come to him for what she craves, atention.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

PHTlump said:


> He has said earlier that they actually have sex about once a week. But, she never initiates, and always makes it clear that she is only participating out of duty. So, basically, she never wants to have sex with him.


Never is a very long time. I wouldn't want to stay married to someone who never wanted sex with me. I wouldn't keep asking and trying to win him over. Kids or no, I'd be making my exit plan. Life is too short to be with someone who makes me miserable.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

mineforever said:


> That sounds like passive agressive behavior...especially compared to her other behavior. Notice how she wants a hug in the morning, it validates he still wants her no matter how badly she treats her. Notice how much she enjoys people noticing how young she looks for her age. Me thinks if he showed her less affection and spent some time doing things he enjoyed without her and let her know he was fine without her attention....she would turn around fast. She likes attention... being wanted..desired..take that away and she will come to him for what she craves, atention.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're probably right, but that's not really satisfying for him, is it? I mean, she wouldn't be turning to him because of her love for him or because she wants him, but because her ego wants the strokes.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

norajane said:


> You're probably right, but that's not really satisfying for him, is it? I mean, she wouldn't be turning to him because of her love for him or because she wants him, but because her ego wants the strokes.


My point was more that this about control and selfishness. We all have our love language ...it appears one of hers is affirmation of her beauty and desirability. He is meeting her need for that, she is not meeting his for physical affection intimacy. Got to be a two way street...one ways really s**k!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

mineforever said:


> That sounds like passive agressive behavior...especially compared to her other behavior. Notice how she wants a hug in the morning, it validates he still wants her no matter how badly she treats him. Notice how much she enjoys people noticing how young she looks for her age. Me thinks if he showed her less affection and spent some time doing things he enjoyed without her and let her know he was fine without her attention....she would turn around fast. She likes attention... being wanted..desired..take that away and she will come to him for what she craves, atention.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



You speak the truth. I sucked it up this morning and hugged her lovingly this morning even though inside i was pissed. I want to try to have a fun weekend this morning and I can knowing that I have a plan in place.

My wife is the type of woman who gets upset if shes relaxing alone and i come upstairs to give her attention, kisses, hugs, whatever. She'll say i just want to relax and leave her alone. Then when i go do whatever and not pay attention to her, she'll come to me saying shes lonely.... its like shes a damn schizo..

Love on her and give her attention and she says i'm smothering. Ignore her and she complains shes lonely or i'm always in my gameroom....so yes, she does crave desire and attention, but on her terms.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> You speak the truth. I sucked it up this morning and hugged her lovingly this morning even though inside i was pissed. I want to try to have a fun weekend this morning and I can knowing that I have a plan in place.
> 
> My wife is the type of woman who gets upset if shes relaxing alone and i come upstairs to give her attention, kisses, hugs, whatever. She'll say i just want to relax and leave her alone. Then when i go do whatever and not pay attention to her, she'll come to me saying shes lonely.... its like shes a damn schizo..
> 
> Love on her and give her attention and she says i'm smothering. Ignore her and she complains shes lonely or i'm always in my gameroom....so yes, she does crave desire and attention, but on her terms.


It's the same with the attention she loves getting from other people. She enjoys it and is flattered by it, she doesn't have to do anything to get it, and she doesn't give anything in return and gets to go home and bask in the ego boost she got. It's all on her terms with nothing real required from her. That sounds like she has issues with emotional intimacy.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

norajane said:


> You're probably right, but that's not really satisfying for him, is it? I mean, she wouldn't be turning to him because of her love for him or because she wants him, but because her ego wants the strokes.


My wife loves me. However, my wife is being very lazy and is extremely secure in our marriage. I dont think she ever worries about losing me. I have no doubt in my mind that although she loves me, she has severely taken me for granted. 

She doesnt feel the need to "work" for my love and affection where as I choose to do that for her. My wife isnt a lazy person at all, she is a very hard working woman. However when it comes to "working" for my love, she has become a lazy bum. I honestly dont think she feels the need to earn my love and since hes got the ring on her finger her work is done.

So this is good and bad. Bad because it got me in this position, good because i know i can turn this around.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

norajane said:


> That sounds like she has issues with emotional intimacy.


She came from good parents but they werent a very affectionate family. We came from 2 different types of families. Holidays like christmas arent special for her and i'm the one who has to make it special for the kids. If it were up to her, we wouldnt have a tree or decorations. She said she never had it as a kid and isnt used to it. I can see how part of her problem is the way she was raised and maybe she doesnt know how to be a loving wife. I also am not foolish enough to believe this is the total cause though. I know she doesnt feel the need to work for my love.

What i cant get her to understand is that sex isnt about just getting laid. She honestly thinks i want sex with her just to have an orgasm. I've told her that with everything going on in everyday life, sex is how i feel close to her and how i feel loved by her. The orgasm is just an added bonus. There have been a couple of times where she didnt bring me to orgasm (not so much her fault) and she thought i would be upset. I'm wasnt. It was frustrating a bit to miss out on an orgasm, but i still felt good because i got an emotional need met.

She cannot understand, no matter what i tell her, that sex is how most men express and feel love from their wife. Thats certainly the case with me. She thinks i just want to F-her like she was any other woman.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Man where is "Mr Woodchuck" when you need him. Hawx20 please read "woodchuck"s post on the book The 5 love languages. I think it would help her understand your needs better and her own drivers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

you have to tell her that you appreciate what she does, but in order for you to feel loved that as a man this is through sex. You tehn tell her all the things you do to make her feel loved and that you believe your job as a husband is to make her feel loved and apprecaited. That you do this with creativity and purpose... And that it fulfills you. YOu then ask her to think about whether she wants to be that type of wife.. A wife who meets her husband's needs with creativity and purpose.. Tell her to look within her heart.


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

mineforever said:


> Man where is "Mr Woodchuck" when you need him. Hawx20 please read "woodchuck"s post on the book The 5 love languages. I think it would help her understand your needs better and her own drivers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She wont read the book...especially not one about this. Like I said, she honestly thinks all this fighting about sex is just because i want to get laid. I dont think she has a clue how hurtful it is and how bad it feels being rejected. She just thinks, he didnt get to blow his load, get over it. She tells me all the time that i'm pissed because i didnt get laid.

So her reading anything is out. Hell, she'd kill me if she knew i was posting here. Luckily, she wouldnt have the slightest clue about how to find this place...


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

That's why you have to elevate it to a conversation about emotional needs, her needs, your needs, what a marriage is.... You lose of it's about blowing your load.


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## mineforever (Jan 31, 2013)

Then I would recommend you read it..its only $10 on e-bay. It will help you with your plan for after the weekend.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

mineforever said:


> Man where is "Mr Woodchuck" when you need him. Hawx20 please read "woodchuck"s post on the book The 5 love languages. I think it would help her understand your needs better and her own drivers.


The love languages requires two spouses who are interested in providing for each other's needs. If two people are trying to provide for their spouse's needs, but they're just doing it in the wrong love language, then the book can be a great help. If a wife just has no interest in meeting her husband's needs, or just can't bring herself to have sex because she's not attracted to her husband, then it's a waste of time. I think Hawx20's wife is in the latter group.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> She thinks i want a sex slave.


No, she doesn't think that at all. She's guilt-tripping you. 

Same thing with "welcome to married life". That's making you out to be perverted or crazy for wanting... sex with your spouse.

These tactics are manipulative and cruel. You need to recognize how dirty she is fighting. She doesn't need to have this explained to her. She knows better than anyone else exactly how underhanded she is being. But it works for her, so that's why she does it. 

See how accusing you of wanting a sex slave puts you on the defensive and has you begging her to understand that isn't true? 

So you take action instead of begging. It helps to let them know you see through all of their wretched manipulative behavior, and that it won't be tolerated.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hawx,
She understands perfectly well how bad rejection feels. When she hugs you, and you don't hug her back she dislikes it very much. 




QUOTE=hawx20;1487365]She wont read the book...especially not one about this. Like I said, she honestly thinks all this fighting about sex is just because i want to get laid. I dont think she has a clue how hurtful it is and how bad it feels being rejected. She just thinks, he didnt get to blow his load, get over it. She tells me all the time that i'm pissed because i didnt get laid.

So her reading anything is out. Hell, she'd kill me if she knew i was posting here. Luckily, she wouldnt have the slightest clue about how to find this place...[/QUOTE]


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Just got back from our trip and everything was perfect. We were like we were when we were dating. She was holding me all the time, telling me how much she loved me, how happy she was, how good i looked, and we had awesome sex every night.....

So are kids, work, and everyday life just killing this woman?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

hawx20 said:


> Just got back from our trip and everything was perfect. We were like we were when we were dating. She was holding me all the time, telling me how much she loved me, how happy she was, how good i looked, and we had awesome sex every night.....
> 
> So are kids, work, and everyday life just killing this woman?


I'm glad the trip went well. Unfortunately, it's probably time for her to get back to normal and start rejecting you.

If everyday life is killing your wife, then there aren't a lot of options. People have to deal with everyday life. She obviously makes time for the things that are a priority to her, like her friends and the gym. You just need to insist that she make you a priority.

Of course, your other option is to schedule a vacation every weekend.

Good luck.


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## Kermitty (Dec 27, 2012)

Thats great news. 
Everyday life can certainly kill sex drive. It doesn't sound like that uncommon of a problem. If she was genuinely connecting with you and enjoying her time with you then there is hope you can find a way to make her want to feel that way when you are home. 
Did you talk to her about what you felt this weekend? You should see if she can explain why things seemed so different on vacation than when you are home.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

hawx20 said:


> Her friends meet up once a week for a couple of drinks...


This is what burnt me BADLY! I'm also an IT guy that had the bases covered. Trust me you can not cover all the bases. Ever. Pop into one of these drink sessions you might be surprised you who see there. Take note who's sitting next to her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Have you ever just 'taken' her?

Does she like the dominant thing?




QUOTE=hawx20;1500066]Just got back from our trip and everything was perfect. We were like we were when we were dating. She was holding me all the time, telling me how much she loved me, how happy she was, how good i looked, and we had awesome sex every night.....

So are kids, work, and everyday life just killing this woman?[/QUOTE]


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hawx20 said:


> Just got back from our trip and everything was perfect. We were like we were when we were dating. She was holding me all the time, telling me how much she loved me, how happy she was, how good i looked, and we had awesome sex every night.....
> 
> So are kids, work, and everyday life just killing this woman?


Perhaps, but I don't think so. Rather, you currently are not a priority in her life. When it is just the two of you, sex is fine. But when other things compete for her time and energy, you drop to the bottom.

In an earlier post, you mentioned that you know she loves you. How do you know that and why do you say that? What does she do to show that?

I think you have been given some great advice about doing some other things. like meeting with your friends once a week and getting back to some hobbies. I will say that in response to your comment about just wanting to be the guy she married, I would ask is that true? Are you saying that you have not changed? I know I did. I lost my way from the man I was to the man I thought I was supposed to be as a husband and a father. Really turned off my wife in a lot of ways. I am not saying that you don't change (because we all do), but make sure you don't lose all of yourself in that change.

Finally, quit swallowing your resentment. Make your actions align with your words. I think a large part of you failure with your wife is that you say one thing but do another. You tell your wife you are upset that she rejects you for sex, yet you still hug her like everything is okay. She "listens" to the communication form that she wants to hear (in this case, your actions). You are confusing the situation. Stop that. If she gets upset, too bad. You being upset is a consequence of her rejecting you. She should see it.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> When we were dating, it was awesome. Gave and received oral, incredible sex. I thought i hit the lottery. Beautiful woman who enjoyed sex and blew my socks off. We've been married for 7 years and its been slowly going down hill.
> 
> I love yous are few and far between, passionate kissing is rarely done unless i make it a point to do, and even then i have to make her. She does show affection like wanting to cuddle while watching tv, and making comments how she loves when we and the kids are watching our shows together, she makes more of a point to hug me in the morning after she has rejected me then gets mad when i have zero interest in hugging her tight like i normally do.
> 
> ...


Let me make a suggestion....Get a hammer, lay your penis on a board, and hit it really HARD.....

That will get you laid just about as much as withholding affection from your wife will.....

Or you can do what I did....Go on ebay and buy the book "The 5 love languages". and say Honey, I would love us to be closer, and some guy says this will help....Then take a week end and read it together....

The secret is, this book is probably no better or worse than a hundred others out there...What it is, is simple and thin....Not too long to remember the first page when you have finished the last....

What matters is that you both want things to get better. It is a conscious decision on both your parts....

How many times would you expect to get laid for 10 bucks? I can tell you right now my cost is down to few cents per....Thats what I call a good investment.....

PS, I retiref the "flimsy excuse of the decade" trophy about a month before I read this book.....It was the most humongous BS excuse in history, and I show my trophy proudly....


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## hawx20 (Jan 10, 2013)

Only problem is she doesnt think there is a problem. She honestly thinks married couples dont have sex much. Doesnt help that its joked about in almost every movie/tv show/comedy special around. It only reinforces her way of thinking...

I've got some ideas planned to get things to change.


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> Only problem is she doesnt think there is a problem. She honestly thinks married couples dont have sex much. Doesnt help that its joked about in almost every movie/tv show/comedy special around. It only reinforces her way of thinking...
> 
> I've got some ideas planned to get things to change.



My wife swears to this day that she didn't think there was a problem till I printed out the divoece laws for our state, put them on her placemat, and walked out......Get the book, and read it with her......


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## Woodchuck (Nov 1, 2012)

As a post script, before the book, I did the alpha male thing, smoky burnouts in the driveway, grunting, knuckle dragging, shaving with a straight razor, demanding attention and sex.....

Nothing has worked better than the book....And for longer...And it keeps getting better.....and now when I ask for a BJ it is just about a 100% done deal....You cant argue with blowj_obs....

If it dosn't work I'll buy it back from you.....:smthumbup:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hawx, 
Funny thing, my wife has never asked me to ratchet back my income to 'average', or my work ethic, or my kindness to her, or sense of humor. 

So why would I be ok with average when it would only be applied to my expectations being reduced. 

FYI: You have to get your wife to Want to please you.

She has to feel comfortable having sex with you. 
Uncomfortable refusing you sex and
You have to stop with the logic and really leverage the humor and dominance.


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## Theseus (Feb 22, 2013)

I am glad things sound better, and just wanted to point out two short things in case they get worse again.



hawx20 said:


> thanks for the advice everyone. I did the MAP for a while on her and even the 180 plan and it did work. Problem is I just dont want to follow a set of rules. I just want to be myself, whether that be alpha or beta I dont care.


And that's the problem with most of these suggestions. They are asking you to be something you're not. I would prefer to outright be honest and tell my wife it's serious enough that I'm considering divorce, and tell her each of the steps I'm taking, as I take them.



hawx20 said:


> I think i'd rather beat my head against a brick wall then try to convince her to go to counseling. She honestly thinks the problem is me. She thinks i'm a hornball who wants sex 24/7.


Well, then use that as a reason to go to marriage counseling! If she thinks you have the problem, then fine. Tell her you need to go to marriage counseling to help solve *your* problem. If you put it like that, she might be willing to go, at least for one session (she might be annoyed when the MC says there's nothing necessarily wrong with your sex drive).


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## Rakkasan (Mar 4, 2013)

I am sorry, but what is MAP? I read about it a lot, and it sounds like something I need, but I haven't an idea what it is.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> She honestly thinks married couples dont have sex much.


You keep repeating this. 

It is not what she believes. It is what she tells you to push you off.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Rakkasan said:


> I am sorry, but what is MAP? I read about it a lot, and it sounds like something I need, but I haven't an idea what it is.


Here. 

Reader Story: MAP is the New Lifestyle | Married Man Sex Life


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Are situations are very similar OP. 

I have been accused of me wanting her to be my sex slave and not happy unless she has her legs open 24/7. Among other derogatory comments. 

This is known as shaming your needs. Feels terrible. After awhile you may start to think that there is something wrong with you and you may wonder if you are treating your wife badly because of how she says she feels.(?) 

When she says "welcome to married life". What she means is "welcome to married life with me". When she says "married couples don't do that" she means "anyone married to me will not be receiving or giving that sexual act." There are in fact a lot of happily married couples engaging in good frequency and variety. Maybe what she is trying to tell you is that all married men are miserable with their sex lives. Perhaps ask her if thats what she means. 

I will submit that she has never had her legs open 24/7. In that case her nickname should be 7/11 and it's not. If she wishes to know how you feel she should ask rather than project how she thinks you feel and in the same breath shaming you. I would suggest in a calm manner ask her for some respect. That if she wishes to know how you feel you are asking her to ask you rather than assume, because sex slaves dress and behave differently than she does....

In your case as in mine divorce and or separation has to be an answer for your difficulties. Where will you be if you find out from her that she is not attracted to you? What choice will you have if you wish to live your life with a partner who is interested in you sexually? 

My wife and I are at that cross roads due to my severe destabilizing of our marriage. I cannot go back and live the way I was with her. It is not healthy for me at all. And it's really nice to be able to let go of that resentment and anger. Although it still creeps in now and again it is getting a lot easier.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

hawx20 said:


> sex twice a week was considered having a sex slave.


It's not, and she knows it. She's just trying to control you so that you don't contemplate leaving. BTW it's very telling that she was sabotaging your efforts to lose weight and improve yourself.

Essentially, she's complacent. She knows that if you walk, the chances of finding someone to accept her as she is now are nil. It might do you well to remind her of that the next time she accuses you of being a pervert or sex crazed.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I am where you're at. I know you know better. But this sex on the trip was simply to placate you. This will not be your new way of life. Quite the contrary.

I am where you are. Married 7 years. Pretty much same boat...even with the BJ's....

I will not leave my children either. Just be prepared though. You're a human being. Women are going to present very low hanging fruit and your guard will be tested. 

I also dislike having to be somebody I am not. I say you need the resentment. You need the anger. I liken it to forest fires. They are destructive and negative. The are all consuming. But they are absolutely necessary in some cases. Clearing the way for rich fertile vegetation to regrow in its wake.

Let your fire burn. Its not the typical answer..but I think this is what I want to do. Just so far Im too chicken to go full fledged on it.

Good luck and stay strong.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

hawx20 said:


> You speak the truth. I sucked it up this morning and hugged her lovingly this morning even though inside i was pissed. I want to try to have a fun weekend this morning and I can knowing that I have a plan in place.
> 
> My wife is the type of woman who gets upset if shes relaxing alone and i come upstairs to give her attention, kisses, hugs, whatever. She'll say i just want to relax and leave her alone. Then when i go do whatever and not pay attention to her, she'll come to me saying shes lonely.... its like shes a damn schizo..
> 
> Love on her and give her attention and she says i'm smothering. Ignore her and she complains shes lonely or i'm always in my gameroom....so yes, she does crave desire and attention, but on her terms.


Why did you marry a cat?


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Wiserforit said:


> No, she doesn't think that at all. She's guilt-tripping you.
> 
> Same thing with "welcome to married life". That's making you out to be perverted or crazy for wanting... sex with your spouse.
> 
> ...



"You want a sex slave."

Answer: "No...most married couples who have a normal and good relationship have sex about twice a week. A person who LOVES their spouse is willing to make the occasional sacrifice even if they aren't 'in the mood'. Do you think I'm 'in the mood' to do 3 loads of laundry a day? Do you think I'm 'in the mood' to see your mother? No. It's part of the sacrifices one makes when you are married." Pause "WELCOME TO MARRIED LIFE."


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

JCD said:


> "You want a sex slave."
> 
> Answer: "No...most married couples who have a normal and good relationship have sex about twice a week. A person who LOVES their spouse is willing to make the occasional sacrifice even if they aren't 'in the mood'. Do you think I'm 'in the mood' to do 3 loads of laundry a day? Do you think I'm 'in the mood' to see your mother? No. It's part of the sacrifices one makes when you are married." Pause "WELCOME TO MARRIED LIFE."


Good point here. I prefer to use the word "contribution" rather than sacrifice. As in "It's part of the the contribution one makes to show that you value the marriage and the needs of others"


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