# wife says she never fit in



## Mike333 (Feb 4, 2013)

After 11 years of marriage i found out my wife had been cheating for the past 2 months and when i confronted her she said it was a mistake and for the past 10 years, after the birth of our second child, she has felt that she has never fit in as a wife and mother. I want to work things out but she says she doesn't know what she wants and has to think about if she wants to stay. She says she wants to get help but hasn't even started looking for a therapist and it's been just over a week.
Background information....She has been working 3rd shift for the past 10 years (she likes 3rd shift) so there is someone home all the time for our kids. Now she can not change shifts as she needs to be off during the day 3 days a week to help her sick mother.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

So you haven't been sleeping with her on a regular basis for ten years?

You work too, so there's not much other time together either? 

Her affair is her's to own. But with a lifestyle like this I can't see it getting better. 

Third shift eats up and spits out marriages. It's a real marriage killer.

Read these books yesterday.

Surviving an Affair: Willard F. Jr. Harley, Jennifer Harley Chalmers

His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage: Willard F. Jr. Harley


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## Mike333 (Feb 4, 2013)

no, and it's worse, we used to have weekends but she has been working a lot of overtime and now works 12 hours a day 5 days a week and then works 8 hours on the 6th day and we only see each other 1 day a week. As far as i know, she does not have a choice about the overtime.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

First you should put your post in the infidelity area. 

There you will get advice from those who are experienced and have walked in your shoes

Do you know who the OM is?

Is she still in contact with him?


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## Mike333 (Feb 4, 2013)

how do i move the post?

I don't know him...she works with him


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Mike333 said:


> no, and it's worse, we used to have weekends but she has been working a lot of overtime and now works 12 hours a day 5 days a week and then works 8 hours on the 6th day and we only see each other 1 day a week. As far as i know, she does not have a choice about the overtime.


I throw the challenge flag. Anytime I hear people say they do not have a choice. Totally absurd. Of course she has a choice. If you live in wetern culture you have a choice.

She can change her job. If you marriage is #1 then jobs just flat do not matter. Basically she has put her job as the #1 priority. Poor choice IMO.

Trust me I am as much about my job as anyone. But she has destroyed her marriage with her choices.

There are other jobs that do not require her to do this.

What does she do for a living? 

So her OM works with her. Then she quits her job tomorrow and goes full NC immediately. This must happen. No compromise.


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## Mike333 (Feb 4, 2013)

when i stated that she didn't have a choice, i meant that she didn't have a choice if she wants to keep this job. she has talked about finding another job but wants another 3rd shift job so she can be home for our kids when they go to school and when they come home


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Mike333 said:


> how do i move the post?
> 
> I don't know him...she works with him


Just start another thread there. 


If she works with him it's a problem. They can't be in contact. No amount of counselling or any effort on your part will work if she stays in contact with him. 

Has it been exposed?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Mike333 said:


> when i stated that she didn't have a choice, i meant that she didn't have a choice if she wants to keep this job. she has talked about finding another job but wants another 3rd shift job so she can be home for our kids when they go to school and when they come home


Time for you to get out of this no win scenario my friend.

Time for her to put the marriage first. You guys really are not married. Seriously. Past basic needs children are best served to see their parents living in a loving relationship. 

Her loving the 3rd shift has destroyed your marriage.
Why would you cater to this?

What does she do for a living?

Does she work with her OM? Ypou know the answer is yes. She likes the 3rd shift because she can live a spearate life form you and have her OM.

She must go NC with him immediately. It is your only chance if you want to save the marriage. Personally this would eb adeal breaker for me but if you want to salvage any of this you will insist she quits her job tonight.


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## Mike333 (Feb 4, 2013)

it doesn't matter what she does for a living and yes she works at the same place as the OM. I have told her that I want her to find a new job and that she will need to be home more often for our marriage to work. The problem is that she has not yet decided if she wants to stay married or not. 10 years is a long time to feel like you've never fit in


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Entropy is right, you have to take control quickly. 

You must be willing to put it all on the line. 

She either follows your rules or it's D.

Right now your letting her decide what's going to happen. Your trying to nice her out of it. It doesn't work.

She's got to give up that job to get away from her AP and to get back to a marriage where you both can spend time as husband and wife.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

OP I have not been in your shoes, but although I have never cheated I can understand what your wife says when she says that she never felt that she fit in as a wife and mother. It's the sense that alot of women have where even when we are told we are loved just the way we are that we ought to be doing more, being more anyway. At all times we must be thin, have the perfectly clean hme, and the most gracious kids, and feed our man, and keep our good looks, and be educated, and have no bad habits, be a good role model, be charitable, have a sense of humor, be wild in bed eyc etc etc. The woman will be her own harshest critic. And when something fails in a marriage she will wonder just what it is that she is doing wrong. What can she fix so this problem, whatever it is, will go away. Even if her family never complains the woman will unwisely look at other families who seem oh so perfect on the outside and draw comparisons to herself based on incomplete data. Really men do this too but we women seem to have a knack for it.

Now you've given very little to go on but I will go with what you said. She works third shift. And she likes it. I bet she feels guilty for liking it especially if you point this out as a problem. Then she thinks maybe it's for the best that she doesn't work third shift (so she can focus on you) only to discover her mother needs her. Now it's like she feels she's doing the best she can and you are pressuring her. She feels your dissatisfaction with her working third shift but it was precisely by taking third shift that she has been accomplishing what she has regarding the kids and her mother and also contributing to the household. So she has guilt, and resentment, and missing you and reconnecting with you seems to have been pushed down the food chain. If she were to quit third shift what changes would be necessary in your life?

The affair is on her. That's a very large betrayal of trust. You still seem to want to work it out so you'll have to find out why she feels that she doesn't fit anymore. If she's anything like me she'll have felt all those things I have mentioned at one point or other. If you decide to stay with her then you must be forewarned that everything is still equal in your marriage. You can't pull out the "you cheated on me" card when you think she's vulnerable to guilt. If she mentions that she needs something from you give it freely as much as you can. Otherwise what's the point in being married? Set boundaries, be firm and loving. Good luck!


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Mike333 said:


> it doesn't matter what she does for a living and yes she works at the same place as the OM. I have told her that I want her to find a new job and that she will need to be home more often for our marriage to work. The problem is that she has not yet decided if she wants to stay married or not. 10 years is a long time to feel like you've never fit in


I asked because I thought it would help with advice for you, but you do not want to say. Ok fine. I was thinking it was IT or medical field but it must if you do not want to say what it is it must be something you feel people would think is inappropriate for a wife. But no matter you want to hold that info back.

But the important thing is she works with the OM.

I am amazed you have not insisted she never see him again. Period. It is the only way you can slavage anything. But even if you intend to divorce her, you should insist for you childrens sake that she quit this job.

Make her decide today. If she cannot decide today to quit her job there is nothing to think about. If you are not upset about her having another man then you have your own answer as well.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Mike333 said:


> it doesn't matter what she does for a living and yes she works at the same place as the OM. I have told her that I want her to find a new job and that she will need to be home more often for our marriage to work. The problem is that she has not yet decided if she wants to stay married or not. 10 years is a long time to feel like you've never fit in


That's because you haven't had a marriage for ten years. 
Why? Because it was convenient? 

Who else knows? Was it exposed at work?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Her schedule sounds like she's a nurse or something similar. Are there places near where you live that she can find another job? Can she move to daytime?

How old are your children?


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## Mike333 (Feb 4, 2013)

Fledgling seems to be hitting things correctly. If i pressure her to decide now, she will leave because she said she needs time to sort out her feelings. no one else at her work knows but the OM's wife knows...that is how i found out.
She asked me to give her 2 weeks to sort her feelings and she says she knows she needs to see a therapists


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## Mike333 (Feb 4, 2013)

her only choice at this time would be to quit her job while she is looking for a new one and we can not afford that at this time. Our kids are 12 and 10. she is considering finding a new job but they aren't as available as they used to be


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Your only chance is to act strong and decisively. But you're doing the opposite. You're acting like you're afraid to lose her. Ironically acting that way will ensure that you look weak and cause her to move further away from you.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

I feel like I am giving you spectacularly awful advice. I know alot of these people have been what you have been through. I know that what they are saying probably worked for them. They are not WRONG in their advice but I will say this. They are not you and their spouses or exes are not yours. Right now you have been pole axed by the thought that you never knew that your wife felt out of place. That should be a red flag right there. Somewhere, somehow you two to became out of touch enough to not notice something major was going on. That's where the big breakdown came with your marriage. Her affair was a symptom of that.

She knows she needs therapy. You probably will too. And she is open to looking for other jobs. And she knows it was a mistake. You know about the affair. The OM significant other knows about it, too. I get the feeling she has been working third shift for far longer than this affair has been going on. Am I correct? I vehemently disagree with this thought that you have to act like you don't need her. You do. You love her. That is obvious. You won't say what she does because you are protecting her. That's not to say that you have to be needy. Rather you need to show her that she is valuable to you. That is quite different. 

But in turn she has to do some follow through. You can be firn with her. Asking her to switch to another 3rd shift job as soon as possible is not unreasonable. And she seems open to that but she has to follow through. Also you would not be wrong to check in on her more often. Send flowers and watch the OM quiver in fear. Stake your claim. Much harder to hit on a woman when she is being showered with loving attention from her husband. 

I don't know OP. Maybe I'm wrong or a hopeless romantic. Maybe since my life is a mess I want someone to make it to the other side. I just feel like you love her. I would hate to see harsh judgements and ultimatums get in the way of that. I hope you find a way to reconnect that isn't based on guilt and negative associations. Best of luck.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

There are methods that show they are useful and those that don't. 

Your marriage, you choice. 

At least read the books and get more advice on the infidelity area.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Read this,

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...e-tam-cwi-newbies-please-read.html#post430739


180 List - No More Mr. Nice Guy Online Support Group


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/24796-just-let-them-go.html


“Never allow someone to be your priority while allowing yourself to be their option.” Mark Twain


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

wow, deja vu

wife had short lived affair in 11th year of marriage and worked 3rd shift

you won't survive if she doesnt quit asap, what have you done to verify the affair is over?


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> But in turn she has to do some follow through. You can be firn with her. Asking her to switch to another 3rd shift job as soon as possible is not unreasonable. And she seems open to that but she has to follow through. Also you would not be wrong to check in on her more often. Send flowers and watch the OM quiver in fear. Stake your claim. Much harder to hit on a woman when she is being showered with loving attention from her husband.
> 
> I don't know OP. Maybe I'm wrong or a hopeless romantic. Maybe since my life is a mess I want someone to make it to the other side. I just feel like you love her. I would hate to see harsh judgements and ultimatums get in the way of that. I hope you find a way to reconnect that isn't based on guilt and negative associations. Best of luck.


Nice thoughts. 

OM knows OP's wife checked out of the marriage. 

OM wasn't afraid to bang OP's wife.

Why would he cower in the face of her husband making last ditch efforts? 

Op's W is in the fog of the affair's addiction chemicals
Love Chemical - Love Chemicals and Chemistry of Love. 

NC must be in place for withdrawal occur. 
Then she will be able to think clearly without influences of the OM. 
Every time she sees the OM at work she gets those chemicals replenished and stays in the 'fog'. 

Not guilting someone or ultimatums for reconciliation

A clear statement of personal boundaries, that enforces the OP is not plan B. 

A presentation of an improved working marriage that encourages a healthy relationship.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

anchorwatch said:


> Nice thoughts.
> 
> OM knows OP's wife checked out of the marriage.
> 
> ...


Yes, no contact is obviously the best option. Yes, I agree with personal boundaries. The OP isn't in the "best option" area, though. He just found out his wife had an affair and he still wants to be with her. I am not in favor of him guilting her or giving ultimatums either. Nor should he enable her poor behaviour. But right now making her quit, with no back up or allowing her retain some dignity in the matter, will in effect invalidate all her efforts to bring in an income, stay with her kids during the day, and take care of her extended family. At least she will read it that way. You could say that she should have thought about that sooner, but I fail to see how breaking up the affair and then invalidating her contributions to the family are at all helpful. 

He should be doing it out of love. Staying in contact with her when she doesn't get to see him that often can't be a bad thing. It is his absense from half her life that allows her to get emotionally involved with the OM. There is this prevailing theory that he will seem pathetic and the OM more attractive. Well, to be honest the OM is pretty pathetic for not only cheating on his wife but cheating on his wife with a married woman! The OP needs to realize this. In the patheticness department the OM has him outclassed!


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

They are probably still meeting and having sex in secret. Are you ok with that? Is she ok with you seeing other women in the 2 weeks?


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Mike333 said:


> it doesn't matter what she does for a living and yes she works at the same place as the OM. I have told her that I want her to find a new job and that she will need to be home more often for our marriage to work. The problem is that she has not yet decided if she wants to stay married or not. 10 years is a long time to feel like you've never fit in


This is her fog babble, she's rewriting history to justify her 'gina tingles for another guy.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> But right now making her quit, with no back up or allowing her retain some dignity in the matter, will in effect invalidate all her efforts to bring in an income, stay with her kids during the day, and take care of her extended family. At least she will read it that way. You could say that she should have thought about that sooner, but I fail to see how breaking up the affair and then invalidating her contributions to the family are at all helpful.



1) An understanding that using 3rd shift, as a solution to their financial and child rearing situation, was a mistake that caused more damage than good. It's not invalidating the sacrifices she made for the marriage. 

2) Job with continued contact with OM at work or Marriage?


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Mike333 said:


> no, and it's worse, we used to have weekends but she has been working a lot of overtime and now works 12 hours a day 5 days a week and then works 8 hours on the 6th day and we only see each other 1 day a week. As far as i know, she does not have a choice about the overtime.


Yet, she found the time to cheat on you. 

The reason she is asking for another two weeks to make a decision is because she wants to see how things will work out for the OM. Is his wife going to divorce him, or will they stay together? She is waiting to see that outcome.

You are plan B.

Sorry to be so blunt. But you need a reality check.

Cheaters re-write their marital history to justify their adulterous ways. That's why she is suddenly telling you that she "doesn't fit in." It's baloney. Don't buy into that crap.

Kill the affair for good by exposing to friends and family. She will go ballistic at first, but it will pass. Think of it like a drug addict who can no longer get her fix. After you break her addiction to him, the fog will lift. Then you can decide on whether there is anything left to save.

Sorry you are here. Most of us have been where you are. Be strong and listen to the advice you are given.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Expose now to friends and family don't let this fester. If she leaves let the omw know so she has a heads up. Being passive will not help.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

After being married for 11 years, if she needs more than a minute to decide you or him....that's a minute too long. Surely, you have enough self respect to refuse to be her plan B. She needs a wake up call. Take half the money from the bank, report credit cards were lost, and remove her belongings from the master bedroom. Take care of yourself and your kids, protect yourself and begin the 180.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Mike333 said:


> Fledgling seems to be hitting things correctly. If i pressure her to decide now, she will leave because she said she needs time to sort out her feelings. no one else at her work knows but the OM's wife knows...that is how i found out.
> She asked me to give her 2 weeks to sort her feelings and she says she knows she needs to see a therapists


Do you want to be married or be a doormat? Exposé to everyone, including your children. Dr. Steve Harley advises telling children as young as 4 about a parents infidelity. Simply tell them, mom has a boyfriend and that's unacceptable to me. Mom wants to act single so we aren't going to remain married. They also should be told the boyfriends name, they have the right to know the new squeeze in mom's life is partially responsible for destroying their family. 

You need to tell everyone the truth before she tells them fog babble.


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

1) The probability this is only the first affair is rather low.
2) She may well be choosing 3rd shift to make cheating easier.
3) She is very likely choosing him over you

Do you know the other man? 

Just so you know. We don't sing happy happy joy joy here. We are blunt as hell. There are patterns and YOUR WIFE IS FOLLOWING THEM TO A T.

Begging her to stay or crying makes you look weak and her even less likely to choose you.

Do the 180.

Fledgling stick around. You will get the hang of it and we need more females input. I find myself "liking Ava's input alot" Male and female perspectives are largely alien to each other. Your advice is wrong. Your perspectives have value.

Time to go into spy mode and VAR the car. Get records of the texts. etc etc. Expect it to be ugly.


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

very humbly saying thank you Weightlifter.


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## husbandfool (May 20, 2012)

She has to think about it? Really?
There's your answer right there.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

husbandfool said:


> She has to think about it? Really?
> There's your answer right there.


:iagree:And put a VAR in the car and house. Keep in touch with the omw also. If you are trying to r, expose to hr at her work. If you are going to d, don't expose there because you will pay much more if she loses her job jmo.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

If the roles were reversed would she be so accepting, begging and forgiving as you? Your wife refuses to take responsibility for her actions. She has not fit in for 10 years..................Oh Please.

You need to do the following:
1. Both of you get tested for STD's.
2. You must find out who the OM is and contact his significant other.
3. Contact an attorney to understand your various options.

What have been the consequences for her actions/ She cheats on you for 2 month and your response is to beg her to stay? You judge a person by their actions and her actions show she has no respect for you and your marriage. If you do not respect yourself then who will? Good luck.


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## not.a.fool (Jan 27, 2013)

sounds like she wants time to see if things are going to work out with the new fling


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

Mike333 said:


> I want to work things out but she says she doesn't know what she wants and has to think about if she wants to stay.


3 things.

Her "not fitting in" excuse is a bunch of [email protected], ignore it.

You can't work on the M if she doesn't want to so don't. Only work on yourself. The more you try to fix the M, the more likely she will up and leave to get away from you.

I saw your other posts, you are acting too nice about this. Nice = Weak and when dealing with affairs, weakness ends up enabling the affair to continue. Play hardball and no more nice guy.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> I feel like I am giving you spectacularly awful advice. I know alot of these people have been what you have been through. I know that what they are saying probably worked for them. They are not WRONG in their advice but I will say this. They are not you and their spouses or exes are not yours.


I want to just focus on this here, because the OP is likely to grab onto what you say, and cling to it as his world cracks apart. No, we are not him, his spouse is not our spouse, BUT, and this is huge, these tales of infidelity have so incredibly much commonality, it is like a bad joke. People do the same things, use the same lame excuses and justifications, try the same ineffective tactics all the time. 

The things you say sound all nice, lovely dovey, and seem like they ought to be the right way to go. Maybe they would, if cheaters were in the least bit rational. They aren't. They're like drug addicts, and they crave their fix. They will do incredibly destructive things to get it. Lovey Dovey will not cut the mustard here. Just start reading threads. Read a lot. See what tactics work, and what fails, time and time again. Everyone thinks they or their spouse is an exception. They aren't.

OP, your wife says she wants what's best for the kids, that she wants someone to be there for them, that's why third shift is so important. Bull****! How easy is it going to be for the kids when you two are divorced? How happy are they with parents who are barely roommates to each other? As has been pointed out, she is trying to justify her present behaviour by demonizing the whole of your marriage. Cognitive dissonance in action. Do not be passive, do not give her control. Make your choices, take your children's best interest to heart, and let the chips fall where they may. You can not control your wife. She may not make good choices, she has already made some of the worst she could have possibly made. That's on her though, she can bear the consequences, do not shield her, she doesn't deserve that right now. You control you and you can enforce boundaries for what is tolerable and what is not.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

You have to expose to family and friends if you want any chance of her coming back to the marriage imo.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

My advice may be wrong because this gentleman and his wife are unique individuals. Maybe she is sending out all the classic signals. Or maybe she isn't. She has done alot for her family. Made many sacrifices. And we make sacrifices because we love our families and want to do the best we can. That is a lovable quality. 

The OP needs to decide if their trust is irretrievably broken. This is important regardless of what her decisions are. She is the one who messed up. She bears alot of responsibilty in that. If he cannot trust her he should just let her go since it is obvious that he thinks she wants to go anyway. If he thinks he can trust her than he needs to treat her with that in mind regardless of what her decision is. Because if she thinks she can't earn his trust back she will make the wrong choice even if she wants to make the right one.

People are blaming her working third shift. Oh that's a killer they say. Newsflash, he has just as much opportunity working first shift to find someone to have at least an EA with if he was so inclined. Her shift doesn't matter. His shift doesn't matter. What matters is that they are apart. Other than the affair what reason does he have to insist that she give up her job? None apparently. Because her working that shift has afforded them opportunities that they wouldn't have. Guaranteed that if they don't fix what's wrong between them it wouldn't matter what shift she was working. The chances of her falling into another affair would be higher. If they started working first shift together it would also create other struggles which would be very difficult to get past until they fix what they have broken. 

They'd be together more, you'd say. If she gave up 3rd shift. They'd be together more if he gave up first. Well, you say it's easier for her to find a first shift than him to find a third. And what about the kids. Maybe, but again it's the whole thing "easier for her." Well she certainly made it easier for him by staying with the kids during the day and leaving them with him at night after all the hard work was done and the kids are sleeping or winding down. And she also has responsibilities to her mother and other family too that would be impacted by her switching jobs at this point. She would think about all this. And even though she knows she was wrong to have the affair to be asked to give up what little stability she has would make things harder than they need to be.

But she's the one that had the affair!!! She needs to suck it up. Yes, she had the affair and is going to be scrutenized by her husband and the OM's wife. If the OM's wife pressured the OM to leave and he did would her working the third shift be okay then? The answer is probably no, right? Because she has been tainted now. No matter what she is totally untrustworthy, apparently. It would mean more, much more, if she left the OM voluntarily rather than just doing it just for the OP. You'd say well that would prove that she's putting the OP first. IMHO, no it wouldn't. It would say nothing more than she felt incredibly guilty. When we act out of guilt and not love the change cannot be permanent. She needs to choose out of love. It is true that no contact between her and the OP would be ideal but I don't know that they are in an ideal place, yet. And, let's face it. Leaving that workplace is a good deterrent but if she wants to keep seeing him she will, regardless if they work together anymore. 

IMHO, the OP should not out his wife to her work. That is punishing her. If he really wants her to stay humiliating her at her work is not the right thing to do. IMO, the OP needs to leave right away himself. If he doesn't and really wants to make this marriage work he needs to treat her appropriately and consistently.

And I really dislike this idea that he is weak if he "caves in". His wife was the weak one. You can be firm and have personal boundaries without being holier than thou and petty and vindictive in the process. Most of all the OP and his wife need to pray. They need to lean on God now because neither of them can lean on one another.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

weightlifter said:


> 1) The probability this is only the first affair is rather low.
> 2) She may well be choosing 3rd shift to make cheating easier.
> 3) She is very likely choosing him over you


This is exactly what came to mind. 

I'm sorry to hear you are baring through this but let me tell you one thing.

Nice guys finish last. The advice given thus far is above par!

Trying to be nice to your spouse, convince them to come back will not work. What a cheating spouse needs is tough love and ultimatums. Through thick and thin means does she choose HER OM and her JOB or does she choose YOU. She is being completely SELFISH....2 weeks? 2 weeks for what? To get a burner phone, set up a secret skype/email account, try to get schedules setup so that they work together and find replacement to work their original shift.

I am sorry you are in pain but think with your mind without letting your emotions cloud your judgement. Be firm, adamant, give yourself alone time without talking to her. 

They linked the 180, teats a great way to focus on YOURSELF to calm your mind, ease the emotional upheaval turnaround and to give yourself time to think!


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> My advice may be wrong because this gentleman and his wife are unique individuals. Maybe she is sending out all the classic signals. Or maybe she isn't. She has done alot for her family. Made many sacrifices. And we make sacrifices because we love our families and want to do the best we can. That is a lovable quality.
> 
> The OP needs to decide if their trust is irretrievably broken. This is important regardless of what her decisions are. She is the one who messed up. She bears alot of responsibilty in that. If he cannot trust her he should just let her go since it is obvious that he thinks she wants to go anyway. If he thinks he can trust her than he needs to treat her with that in mind regardless of what her decision is. Because if she thinks she can't earn his trust back she will make the wrong choice even if she wants to make the right one.
> 
> ...



Are you the cheaters lawyer? I'm all for giving the benefit of the doubt, but it is gone. What she needs is to work 3rd shift SOMEWHERE ELSE. You cannot work in the same place with the OM/OW its been tried and tested. A cheater is like a crack/alc addict, you just can't work around the booze/bars.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> Are you the cheaters lawyer? I'm all for giving the benefit of the doubt, but it is gone. What she needs is to work 3rd shift SOMEWHERE ELSE. You cannot work in the same place with the OM/OW its been tried and tested. A cheater is like a crack/alc addict, you just can't work around the booze/bars.


:scratchhead: Cheater's lawyer? Isn't that borderline flaming? If you read any of my previous posts you would see that I did indeed say that she should be given the option of working third shift somewhere else. But it's not like she can just up an quit her job. Even if she were to quit for a first shift job there is still going to overlap. So unless the OP is comfortable with no paycheck for a time she is going to be working with th OM. And to ask her to give up any job would be too much strain for the marriage to handle.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> If you read any of my previous posts you would see that I did indeed say that she should be given the option of working third shift somewhere else. But it's not like she can just up an quit her job. Even if she were to quit for a first shift job there is still going to overlap. So unless the OP is comfortable with no paycheck for a time she is going to be working with th OM. And to ask her to give up any job would be too much strain for the marriage to handle.


Fledgling, there is a lot to what you have too say. Yet I think the flaw in your thoughts is on the matter of 3rd shift. 

1) 3rd shift took too much time away from the couple to bond and let them grow apart. 

2) To keep the shift still does not allow them to have time to work on the M and allows the OM to still influence the W.

Back to my question, what is more important to keep the Job or Marriage? For me, I would live in a tent to keep my marriage.

BTW, I am experienced at 24/7 work for 30 years and have full knowledge of what it does to families.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I can be wrong but thre's another way to see it.


Fledgling said:


> Maybe she is sending out all the classic signals. Or maybe she isn't. She has done alot for her family. *Made many sacrifices. And we make sacrifices because we love our families and want to do the best we can*. That is a lovable quality.
> -------------------
> People are blaming her working third shift. Oh that's a killer they say. Newsflash, he has just as much opportunity working first shift to find someone to have at least an EA with if he was so inclined. *Her shift doesn't matter*. His shift doesn't matter. What matters is that they are apart. *Other than the affair what reason does he have to insist that she give up her job? None apparently. Because her working that shift has afforded them opportunities that they wouldn't have.*


I'm sorry to be blunt but cahces are she didn't choose 3rd shift out of sacrifice. She did to scape relatity, she loved it becase this way she didn't have to deal with marriage, OP, children. She felt she didn't fit as wife/mother. 3rd shift provide the better excuse to distance herself and saving face at the same time. It's her way to be single and easing her conscience putting mone on the table and taking care of her Mom. She left the marriage without leaving it. It's selfish. Why do I have this alternative POV? Becasue OP's wife told him so.


Mike333 said:


> After 11 years of marriage i found out my wife had been cheating for the past 2 months and when i confronted her *she said it was a mistake and for the past 10 years, after the birth of our second child, she has felt that she has never fit in as a wife and mother*. I want to work things out but she says she doesn't know what she wants and has to think about if she wants to stay. She says she wants to get help but hasn't even started looking for a therapist and it's been just over a week.
> Background information....S*he has been working 3rd shift for the past 10 years (she likes 3rd shift) so there is someone home all the time for our kids*. Now she can not change shifts as she needs to be off during the day 3 days a week to help her sick mother.


It's not the first time a wife/mom get overwelmed and sick of her "role", specially after second childs.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> :scratchhead: Cheater's lawyer? Isn't that borderline flaming? If you read any of my previous posts you would see that I did indeed say that she should be given the option of working third shift somewhere else. But it's not like she can just up an quit her job. Even if she were to quit for a first shift job there is still going to overlap. So unless the OP is comfortable with no paycheck for a time she is going to be working with th OM. *And to ask her to give up any job would be too much strain for the marriage to handle*.


Many, tons of cheaters quit job cold turkey to void AP.
About the bolded part. How much strain for the marriage can that working everyday with OM? Can't be worse? There's a small widndow of oportuniy to save this marriage. It clearly involves severing contact with OM. ASAP. 
Divorce is sure more expensive than being temporaly out off work. That's for sure.

It's obvious you have no experience with infidelity. This mariage is about to end if this woman doesn't take the appropiate actions.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Acabado said:


> I can be wrong but thre's another way to see it. I'm sorry to be blunt but cahces are she didn't choose 3rd shift out of sacrifice. She did to scape relatity, she loved it becase this way she didn't have to deal with marriage, OP, children. She felt she didn't fit as wife/mother. 3rd shift provide the better excuse to distance herself and saving face at the same time. It's her way to be single and easing her conscience putting mone on the table and taking care of her Mom. She left the marriage without leaving it. It's selfish. Why do I have this alternative POV? Becasue OP's wife told him so. It's not the first time a wife/mom get overwelmed and sick of her "role", specially after second childs.


Then you'll have to forgive me for being equally blunt.  First of all I love the conflicting advice I see from people. You can't change your partner. We can only change ourselves when we are unhappy in a situation. (Aren't you telling the OP that he has to toughen up! Change himself. Don't be weak. Be a new man.) So she did what you are telling him to do. How is that "checking out"? We change ourselves in the hopes that our spouse might naturally make the changes we need. That's the risk you run when you "take care of yourself" and hope that the partner changes. You grow apart. It's a vicious circle but to just label her selfish or "textbook" or whatever word you want to fling around blithely seems to be doing the OP a disadvantage. If he tries even harder for his marriage and she still let's him down. Guess what? He can honestly say he did everything he could to save the marriage when most people would have checked out immediately. That's not weakness that's a strength. While her evil resume got that much longer. He is no worse off than he was before, and in actuality he won't have regrets about not trying harder when he thought his marriage could be saved. 

Now to the question of marriage or tent. Are you telling me that you wouldn't resent your spouse for putting you in the position of having to live in a tent? That's half the reason why cheating hurts so much. That in order to save the marriage you have destroy even the straggling remains. 

You are all right. I don't have a direct experience with physical affars (although my husband has had a series of EAs over the course of our marriage most of which he was unaware of what they were.) What I do know is a marriage isn't a marriage where one partner has to put a leash on the other. Only time will tell if the OP's wife really thinks what she was doing was a mistake or not. No amount of ultimatums and unequal boundaries can force her to choose wisely. Don't be weak. Be firm. God forbid you be nice, OP. Cancel Valentine's Day!!! Why would the OP want to live that way if he want's a true marriage?


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

Fledgling said:


> My advice may be wrong....
> 
> People are blaming her working third shift. Oh that's a killer they say. Having lived this, I stand firm on saying working different shifts is harmful to a marriage. Seriously, see the divorce rates for Police Officers, Nurses, Firemen and similar jobs. Newsflash, he has just as much opportunity working first shift to find someone to have at least an EA with if he was so inclined. Her shift doesn't matter. His shift doesn't matter. What matters is that they are apart. There is alot to be said for sleeping with your spouse, no really sleeping. There is a comfort and bonding that happens.
> 
> ...


Have you had experience with either cheating or being cheated on? Some of these comments are naive. Please read some of the heartbreaking threads in CWI. You will recognize a pattern, called the cheaters script. And there is an antidote the betrayed script...it works to save marriages, not just rugsweep affairs. TAM is about the hard truths, not touchy freely let's all just be friends and pretend [email protected] doesn't happen.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

I wasn't flaming you fledgling, only that spouted so much of an analysis that made little sense to my dumb mind. 

If you study a cheater's mind, they do need a leash, because no dog can be fully trusted. They can't help themselves. They are addicted and are obsessed with testing their boundaries for excitement, novelty and thrill with other partners. OCD, is linked to addiction, and part of the difficulty in overcoming addiction is the lack of health in our diets. Unhealthy body, unhealthy mind.

It takes tough love to bring a wayward back. If a wayward wishes to save their marriage THEY WILL show it THROUGH ACTIONS, not words. There have been cheaters who jump through flaming hoops of fire after realizing their damage but that is RARE. What happens most often than not is that cheaters realize their loss when the betrayed spouse is gone and moved on.

We are chemically set up to be addicted to dopamine. The intense feelings we get from cheating is NEVER possible with real love because it is fantasy, ephemeral, destructive. Cake eating forever taints the mind with memories and triggers for both parties, faithful and unfaithful, marriage is never the same after infidelity.

The fact of this matter is she is cheating with a co worker. Do you know how common cheating at work is? Very common. First step is NC, NO CONTACT. As long as she does not change jobs she will constantly be tempted to cheat. Who is to say that OP wants to be a spy all his life because his wife works with her EX AFFAIR PARTNER.

Logic says it as it is, if you do not wish to get burned, don't get near the fire. Avoid the occasions of cheating, GNO, sleep overs, co workers/office parties without spouse, friends who exacerbate cheating etc


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## Aunt Ava (Jan 24, 2013)

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I REALLY agree with CleanJerkSnatch! Very well said.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Mike333 said:


> 10 years is a long time to feel like you've never fit in


This is probably a history rewrite to justify the A.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Sorry fledgling, but I see no way of this working unless she leaves.

I don't care if it's 3rd shift, or the city. She has to leave the job where she met (continues to meet?) the other man.

OP most certainly SHOULD demand that she leave that job. They already are in crisis mode. She put them there.

Another thing is the whole "don't know what I want" "don't fit in" thing is absolutely, a load of bull crap. If you're woman enough to have 2 children and say I do, you're woman enough to know what you want and learn to fit in.

Giving her "time" is absolutely the wrong thing to do. OP, please check the Coping with Infedility section. They will help YOU, regardless of what your wife did to your marriage.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Aunt Ava said:


> Have you had experience with either cheating or being cheated on? Some of these comments are naive. Please read some of the heartbreaking threads in CWI. You will recognize a pattern, called the cheaters script. And there is an antidote the betrayed script...it works to save marriages, not just rugsweep affairs. TAM is about the hard truths, not touchy freely let's all just be friends and pretend [email protected] doesn't happen.


I have been fortunate that my husband has never physically cheated. He has developed unintended emotional affairs over the course of our 12 years. 

I am curious as to what you think a saved marriage is and looks like. Having boundaries is great. But those were pretty much established on your wedding day. If the spouse crosses the boundaries you have 2 options. Leave or stay. If you are going to stay in the marriage STAY IN IT. You don't get to humiliate the person you claim to love as some sort of petty revenge or eye opening experience. If they don't love you you pretty much eliminate the chance that they might rekindle their feelings for you and if they do love you you have just shamed them and eroded their trust in you. Why not just cheat yourself then? A little healthy shame is great. Forced shame? Not so much, imho.

Yep I know what no contact means and I think that is ideal. Sure her husband may want to go through the hardship of kids in school and daycare etc in order to spend time with his wife. But he agreed to let her take this job. They reached the decision together and there have been many benefits to it. For him to say now that it's all her fault that they have grown apart because she took this job totally negates his own role in allowing it or not offering an alternative before now. He didn't do anything wrong. Neither did she. Sometimes people think that love conquers all and they can handle the time apart. Then they are hit hard with the realization that they have grown apart. Then the affair happened. 

I realize that I sound naive. Following my own advice has given me alot of heartache in my marriage. But I will say this, marriages have heartache. All marriages do. Infidelity. Loss of children. Infertility. Jobs. Finances. The OP shouldn't stay with her if he can't forgive her. He won't know if he can forgive her if he just leaves. If he decides to stay he needs to stay in it, not punish her every chance he gets.

Everyone hands out lines of bull to one another. It's a defense mechanism. I just have a hard time with this thought that the OP's wife orchestrated all of this. From the time her second child was born. Why have the affair now and not five years ago? I believe her when she says that she didn't feel like she fit in. I can see why. It's no excuse for her having an affair. But it doesn't mean it's not true and that she is simply a selfish witch. her actions up until the affair seem to suggest the opposite of selfishness.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

It is only natural that cheaters wish to eat cake and have theirs too. It seems that fledgling is on the same page as us. Expressing a more feminist analysis as to why/how the cheater did what they did or how they feel etc. We're just handed a description which we make our own superficial visage by what the OP gives us. 

In the end it is still irrelevant. One word as to why, selfishness. Cheaters are selfish that's why they cheated, regardless of shift, children or how much given to them. Even stay at home mothers can cheat by any means, less likely if they have children, but they still can albeit not as easily as women working 3rd shifts. 

And why is that dangerous? Because some men are wolves. They seek out and prey on easy women, it all starts with a compliment then maybe some inappropriate chat, and I'm sure 90% of women do not put an end to it because either they like it or are to timid to say something about it and it goes on, testing boundaries until a spouse becomes betrayed.

We all know this, and how? When was the last time we thought twice about our actions and their affect before we actually acted upon them? Cheaters normally do not think of consequences, and even if they did they cannot comprehend them easily because they are clouded by the drive in their mind to cheat and fulfill themselves. That drive is dopamine, everyone has it, to fulfill their needs and wants, dopamine is there and everyone is addicted to it, but too few are masters of it.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

If you want to help an alcoholic, you don't put beer in their fridge.

That's why NC is important. To break the addiction of the affair.

Of course, NC doesn't matter if she's not interested in stopping the affair. Now it seems like she wants "more time", which in cheater-speak= waiting to see what happens with OM.

OP is plan B.

So first order of business is killing the affair, which means exposing it. Exposure is the best tool to kill an affair. Even then it's a long shot...but what the hell, his marriage is gone right now anyways.

@Fledgeling, I would recommend lurking a little longer before giving advice. You admit you don't have direct experience with this, so realize that your advice at this point might have a detrimental effect. No offense. It seems your heart is in the right place.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> Everyone hands out lines of bull to one another. It's a defense mechanism. I just have a hard time with this thought that the OP's wife orchestrated all of this. From the time her second child was born. Why have the affair now and not five years ago? I believe her when she says that she didn't feel like she fit in. I can see why. It's no excuse for her having an affair. But it doesn't mean it's not true and that she is simply a selfish witch. *her actions up until the affair seem to suggest the opposite of selfishness.*


The end does not justify the means, or does it? All that work suggests opposite of selfishness yet all that work ended up in hear cheating.

*No one* is assuming that she took up 3rd shift to cheat. As a matter of fact, I'm sure everyone on here agrees with me that this was not the OP's wife's intention. That is given as a benefit of the doubt, although most may remain skeptical, because the OP mentioned himself that his wife stated she has not felt as she fitted in for the last X years, or since X.


The problem is that cheaters have no one to blame for their actions except themselves. Common tactic from the cheater script is blame shift. A cheater chose to cheat, the faithful spouse is OF no way responsible, FOR ANY REASON.


The focus now is WHAT HER ACTIONS are after the fact!


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Fledgling, 

It's good to have a discussion, but point and counter point is all that is needed. Let it go. After that the thread no longer belongs to the OP. Who, BTW I fear may have run off. 

Can you tell us what where we can find the methods and advice you have learned? What authors, books, articles or sites we can find that we can understand the advice you have o give.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> It is only natural that cheaters wish to eat cake and have theirs too. It seems that fledgling is on the same page as us. Expressing a more feminist analysis as to why/how the cheater did what they did or how they feel etc. We're just handed a description which we make our own superficial visage by what the OP gives us.
> 
> In the end it is still irrelevant. One word as to why, selfishness. Cheaters are selfish that's why they cheated, regardless of shift, children or how much given to them. Even stay at home mothers can cheat by any means, less likely if they have children, but they still can albeit not as easily as women working 3rd shifts.
> 
> ...


Because some men are wolves. LOL I understand what you are saying. I don't see it as selfishness more as an addiction.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> Because some men are wolves. LOL I understand what you are saying. I don't see it as selfishness more as an addiction.


Fledgling, by any chance are you married to the OP?


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> If you want to help an alcoholic, you don't put beer in their fridge.
> 
> That's why NC is important. To break the addiction of the affair.
> 
> ...


How do you know how long I have been lurking? And quite frankly though my marriage can get crazy rocky I am still in my marriage. I think gains me a little insight. I know you don't like what I am saying but please do me the favor of not shuffling me off. Alot husbands do that to wives btw when the wives are saying stuff they don't like...just sayin.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> My advice may be wrong because this gentleman and his wife are unique individuals. Maybe she is sending out all the classic signals. Or maybe she isn't. She has done alot for her family. Made many sacrifices. And we make sacrifices because we love our families and want to do the best we can. That is a lovable quality.
> 
> The OP needs to decide if their trust is irretrievably broken. This is important regardless of what her decisions are. She is the one who messed up. She bears alot of responsibilty in that. If he cannot trust her he should just let her go since it is obvious that he thinks she wants to go anyway. If he thinks he can trust her than he needs to treat her with that in mind regardless of what her decision is. Because if she thinks she can't earn his trust back she will make the wrong choice even if she wants to make the right one.
> 
> ...


So much rhetoric, so little expertise.


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## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

One of Doktor Kewl's patients?


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

2asdf2 said:


> So much rhetoric, so little expertise.


I get that the majority of you are offended by my words. So be it. But snide comments won't get you anywhere or force me off the board. 

So far I have been told to get off the board. Not an expert. Is there somewhere where I have been rude, or disrespectful? If not please put me on ignore if you simply do not like me. I promise my feelings won't be hurt. Someone mentioned the OP seems to have run off. Maybe it would behoove you to talk to him if he comes back instead of taking issue with me. :smthumbup:


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> Maybe it would behoove you to talk to him if he comes back instead of taking issue with me. :smthumbup:


How can we talk to him when you are giving him advice that's counter to his best interest.

You seem to have an agenda that you would like to push in the face of everyone telling the OP differently.

You admitted yourself that you have no experience with infidelity - except for your husband's 'accidental' EA several years ago.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

I hope op is not here right now because he is preparing legally, financially and busy exposing now and not scared off like many.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Fledgling said:


> My advice may be wrong


Stop right here.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> I get that the majority of you are offended by my words. So be it. But snide comments won't get you anywhere or force me off the board.
> 
> So far I have been told to get off the board. Not an expert. Is there somewhere where I have been rude, or disrespectful? If not please put me on ignore if you simply do not like me. I promise my feelings won't be hurt. Someone mentioned the OP seems to have run off. Maybe it would behoove you to talk to him if he comes back instead of taking issue with me. :smthumbup:


You have not been rude or disrespectful.

Your views are not entirely in space or from cheater haven but it seems you only impressed a misleading verbiage in your posts alleging an atypical view of a WS.

Please stick around and not mind those who disagree, except read and learn from those who both agree/disagree and decide for yourself.

Look up beowulf, bandit.45, countofmontecristo, lord mayhem, bff, etc etc read their stories. 

Very illuminating.


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## FryFish (Sep 18, 2012)

> How do you know how long I have been lurking?


By the advice you give... You are telling him to reward his cheating wife... You are telling him he can "nice" her out of her fog... He cant. He WILL lose his marriage if he takes your advice... He might not lose his marriage if he takes EVERYONE else's advice... But the odds are low.

Her quitting her job to find another one WILL be hard financially... Her NOT finding another job WILL destroy any chance of them saving the marriage...

If you look at that logically, there is the option that gives the marriage ZERO chance of working(what you have adviced) and the option that gives the marriage a VERY SMALL chance of working(change jobs, no contact, complete 180 by OP)... He needs to start the 180 right now no matter if he wants the marriage to work or not... the 180 is for him, it just so happens that it makes him more attractive to his wife.

So the OP has a choice... Its simple if he wants to save the marriage.

Do stick around fledgling... but please dont tell betrayed spouses to rugsweep their partners affairs...


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

Count of Monte Cristo said:


> How can we talk to him when you are giving him advice that's counter to his best interest.
> 
> You seem to have an agenda that you would like to push in the face of everyone telling the OP differently.
> 
> You admitted yourself that you have no experience with infidelity - except for your husband's 'accidental' EA several years ago.


I believe that you are all personally offended by me. You don't agree with my points. That's not my concern. If the OP comes back he will decide which advice, if any, that he should follow based on the actions of his wife. If you are offended by me then please put me on ignore. I am not an expert, I never claim to be an expert. I feel for the OP and I hope that comes across in my posts to him. I revealed what I did about my husband because I am trying to be authentic, not to try to have you psychoanalyze my motives or score a cheap point.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

FryFish said:


> By the advice you give... You are telling him to reward his cheating wife... You are telling him he can "nice" her out of her fog... He cant. He WILL lose his marriage if he takes your advice... He might not lose his marriage if he takes EVERYONE else's advice... But the odds are low.
> 
> Her quitting her job to find another one WILL be hard financially... Her NOT finding another job WILL destroy any chance of them saving the marriage...
> 
> ...


Again what does a saved marriage look like? I think I have been pretty patient up to now but I think this is a bit ridiculous. I am not advising anyone to rugsweep an affair. I am telling him to not give up on his marriage by shaming, humiliating, or devaluing her efforts for the family. Whether or not anyone wants to admit it she is a person who has feelings. She is being torn apart by taking care of herself first. Now you are advising him to take care of himself first. I am for boundaries. I am for being firm. But I do not agree with the rather vengeful advice I see and I believe the board rules allow me to state my opinions as I see fit. Again I am sorry that my words offend some, but I can't take them back or be shuffled off because people don't like what I have to say.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

To the OP:

Do not be afraid of having her leave or you leaving.


Link to another BS such as yourself leaving his wife at the door crying and begging and ultimately fighting for his respect.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/66609-how-my-wife-cheated-me.html


Do not tolerate the mushroom treatment!!!!


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> Again what does a saved marriage look like? I think I have been pretty patient up to now but I think this is a bit ridiculous. I am not advising anyone to rugsweep an affair. I am telling him to not give up on his marriage by shaming, humiliating, or devaluing her efforts for the family. Whether or not anyone wants to admit it she is a person who has feelings. She is being torn apart by taking care of herself first. Now you are advising him to take care of himself first. I am for boundaries. I am for being firm. But I do not agree with the rather vengeful advice I see and I believe the board rules allow me to state my opinions as I see fit. Again I am sorry that my words offend some, but I can't take them back or be shuffled off because people don't like what I have to say.


What does a saved marriage look like?

See EI and B1, see CSS and calvin, see Beowulf and Morrigan, see many others here on TAM who have successfully reconciled their marriages after incidents of infidelity. These boards are full of people who now have saved marriages thanks to the advice given by others here and by the many books recommended here on TAM. Your advice runs counter to the advice offered by everyone else not only here on TAM but in every book on recovering from infidelity that I and my wife have ever read. Please point out ONE instance of a marriage that has recovered after infidelity where the AP's continued to work together. Because I've only seen it one time and in that case the BS also worked at the same place and was able to continually monitor the situation to insure NC. Please show me one...please.


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## FryFish (Sep 18, 2012)

> Again what does a saved marriage look like? I think I have been pretty patient up to now but I think this is a bit ridiculous. I am not advising anyone to rugsweep an affair.


You should read a dozen or so more entire threads here and see if you still think you are giving good advice.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> --------------Snip for brevity-------------------
> I feel for the OP and I hope that comes across in my posts to him.
> --------------Snip for brevity-------------------


Support for OP and his emotions is helpful

Wrong advice is hurtful.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I was about to reflexively write that this is an interesting thread, but then I realized that I don't think it's interesting. I think OP has a real problem and that the discussion has degenerated and become counterproductive because a new member has just registered for Infidelity 101 but hasn't done the required reading.

To repeat what we all know: Human behavior shows tremendous commonality because we are all members of the same species. Infidelity is a behavior just like any other that we can study, observe, experience & generalize on. The patterns, what here is called 'the script,' reflect the set of expected behaviors on the part of cheaters and betrayeds that is well vetted by experts in the field of human infidelity and seen ad infinitum by the people in this forum. Insisting that seat-of-the-pants advice is equally helpful is itself not helpful to anyone who comes here looking for help.


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## 2asdf2 (Jun 5, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> I was about to reflexively write that this is an interesting thread, but then I realized that I don't think it's interesting. I think OP has a real problem and that the discussion has degenerated and become counterproductive because a new member has just registered for Infidelity 101 but hasn't done the required reading.
> 
> To repeat what we all know: Human behavior shows tremendous commonality because we are all members of the same species. Infidelity is a behavior just like any other that we can study, observe, experience & generalize on. The patterns, what here is called 'the script,' reflect the set of expected behaviors on the part of cheaters and betrayeds that is well vetted by experts in the field of human infidelity and seen ad infinitum by the people in this forum. Insisting that seat-of-the-pants advice is equally helpful is itself not helpful to anyone who comes here looking for help.


:iagree: :toast:


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Fledgling said:


> :scratchhead: Cheater's lawyer? Isn't that borderline flaming? If you read any of my previous posts you would see that I did indeed say that she should be given the option of working third shift somewhere else. *But it's not like she can just up an quit her job. * Even if she were to quit for a first shift job there is still going to overlap. So unless the OP is comfortable with no paycheck for a time she is going to be working with th OM. And to ask her to give up any job would be too much strain for the marriage to handle.


Why do you think she cannot quit her job? 

His choice but no paycheck or a wife staying in the affair give me no paycheck.


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

2asdf2 said:


> :iagree: :toast:


Ditto!!



alte Dame said:


> I was about to reflexively write that this is an interesting thread, but then I realized that I don't think it's interesting. I think OP has a real problem and that the discussion has degenerated and become counterproductive because a new member has just registered for Infidelity 101 but hasn't done the required reading.
> 
> To repeat what we all know: Human behavior shows tremendous commonality because we are all members of the same species. Infidelity is a behavior just like any other that we can study, observe, experience & generalize on. The patterns, what here is called 'the script,' reflect the set of expected behaviors on the part of cheaters and betrayeds that is well vetted by experts in the field of human infidelity and seen ad infinitum by the people in this forum. Insisting that seat-of-the-pants advice is equally helpful is itself not helpful to anyone who comes here looking for help.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

The new member suggested placing her posts on "ignore". I looked for the button but realized that it was a feature on dockewl not here. pity.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

walkonmars said:


> The new member suggested placing her posts on "ignore". I looked for the button but realized that it was a feature on dockewl not here. pity.


Now that's interesting.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

walkonmars said:


> The new member suggested placing her posts on "ignore". I looked for the button but realized that it was a feature on dockewl not here. pity.


You can go into your profile and edit your ignore list.


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

I know I shouldn't go down this path, but fledgling would you care to enlighten us on just how having an affair is an effective means of taking care of one's self? On what basis do you think the OP should be the one to leave his home and his children (aka abandonment)? In what situations is an affair a good solution? 

What does a repaired marriage look like? In the short term, it is pretty battered and beat up. The trust is destroyed, and it can't be given back too quickly or easily, that will not help. Yes, a marriage without trust is useless, but trust is earned. The wayward should, no must, be willing to do what it takes to both earn back trust, and to expose themselves to extreme scrutiny in the mean time. There are no guarantees, it is tiresome, it is gruelling. It could be worth it in the end. It would be infinitely easier had the wayward chosen to work on the problems in the marriage with their spouse, or dissolve it if need be, rather than choose to make it much, much worse.


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

I have never said that she shouldn't find another job. I said that quitting her job right away may not be feasable and to ask her to do so, on the heels of everything else, may be counterproductive given everything she is feeling. I also think that if she is showing that she is truly searching for a way extricate herself from the situation (other than quitting) that is a step in the right direction as well. I do certainly think that the OP's wife should find another job if it helps to give her husband peace of mind.

Now all of that being said. I was the new poster who said put me on ignore. Please at least attempt to get that right, at least. Secondly I didn't say that your (and by your I mean the general your not any individuals, methods didn't work. Where did I ever say that? What I have been saying all along is simply that what works for some people may not work for others. If you betray yourself and your heart and turn yourself into someone you don't recognize into an attempt to save your marriage...isn't that counter productive? To make someone beg for your love back? How does begging mean that the spouse has learned their lesson? To put a virtual stranglehold on your spouse for "their own good."?

I am very happy for people who the methods that have been mentioned work. Truly. To have no resentment or lingering doubts on either side is a pretty amazing thing. I do feel like there is a lot of contradictory advice floating around, not only this thread, but the board so to claim a fixed rule that only one way fixes everything..well I find that hard to believe. *shrug*


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## Fledgling (Feb 3, 2013)

SadandAngry said:


> I know I shouldn't go down this path, but fledgling would you care to enlighten us on just how having an affair is an effective means of taking care of one's self? On what basis do you think the OP should be the one to leave his home and his children (aka abandonment)? In what situations is an affair a good solution?
> 
> What does a repaired marriage look like? In the short term, it is pretty battered and beat up. The trust is destroyed, and it can't be given back too quickly or easily, that will not help. Yes, a marriage without trust is useless, but trust is earned. The wayward should, no must, be willing to do what it takes to both earn back trust, and to expose themselves to extreme scrutiny in the mean time. There are no guarantees, it is tiresome, it is gruelling. It could be worth it in the end. It would be infinitely easier had the wayward chosen to work on the problems in the marriage with their spouse, or dissolve it if need be, rather than choose to make it much, much worse.


Can you quote me where I said that an affair was the correct way to take care of oneself, first? The fact is I never said that at all. OP's wife had her second child, and it was presumably after that that she started feeling lost in her marriage right? Maybe she tried to discuss it with her husband and found him to be unable to understand. Or maybe she figured they chose this way of life together and so she would just kind of suck it up so to speak figuring it wouldn't last forever. And she started living her life in a way that made it more comfortable or bearable and hoped that the OP would adjust accordingly (many married couples do this without thinking actually) I see this train of thought alot. You need to make yourself happy before you can make him happy. (Or vice versa) Only the next thing you know the couple has grown apart, rather than closer together. It's not an intentional thing on either side and no maliciousness is involved. Then she meets the OM and she gets this rush that alot of you had mentioned. And the affair happens. And it's not just a ONS it's been going on for months. And what began on her part as wanting to make the best of things with her home, family, and finances has now become her downfall. 

Should she be willing to open herself up to extreme scrutiny? In a real marriage there is an implicit understanding that husband or wife are to be completely transparent with one another right? If she wants to repair the marriage then that seems to come with the territory. It shouldn't be a sudden new rule imposed on her and her husband, imho, shouldn't be forced to snoop and spy and lower himself to that level. The thing is, right at this moment, she wants to go and he wants her to stay. Supposedly. Are these tactics designed to open her eyes to the fact that she really does love him? Right now she thinks she doesn't. She can't even pinpoint why. 

What she has done is 100% wrong. The OP would be well within his rights to leave her. But if he chooses or wants her to stay he should model the love that he expects to recieve, imho. Whatever the case he should realize that he is not going to get his old, comfortable marriage back. He should be firm and set boundaries. But imho he should never try to humiliate, shame, or otherwise use negative emotions to control her. If she truly loves him those emotions will come without him having to force it out of her. To me if you are going to invest time in a rocky marriage anyway why lower yourself to the lowest common denominator? That of being complete jerks to one another until someone gets tired of fighting and gives in?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

If my old lady was screwing around on me an mine I'd be pissed, I don't care EA/ PA the fact that my kids are not #1 and me #2 on my chicks priority list then by by.

Especially if its a coworker...hell no. Job be dambed and bring on the Mac&Cheese cuz its crunch time.

Granted my old lady can take off...well then, one less mouth to
feed.

IF you *know* your chick is screwing around on you there is a damb good chance that she is commiting adultory in the storage closet. With that said, isn't your self respect worth more to giving your kids a healthy example of said self respect?

Still we can all make excusses, but at the end of the day when daddy is mowbing around the house, doesn't one think the kids diserve a better father. 
One that doesn't define him self with the crap that his cheating old lady serves him!

This may all suprise you, but I never fit in either! I haven't cheated!

Geeze!!!!!!!


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

the guy said:


> If my old lady was screwing around on me an mine I'd be pissed, I don't care EA/ PA the fact that my kids are not #1 and me #2 on my chicks priority list then by by.
> 
> Especially if its a coworker...hell no. Job be dambed and bring on the Mac&Cheese cuz its crunch time.
> 
> ...


OP is gone another spineless statistic so sad.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Mike333 said:


> I want to work things out but she says she doesn't know what she wants and has to think about if she wants to stay.


 The fact that after you caught her cheating she said this to your face and you took it is why you will lose her. She feels that she can do what she wants when she wants and that what you want does not matter because you will not leave her. Instead of her begging you to forgive her and to take her back, you are begging her to come back. Notice how her ending the affair has not even come up in your posts?



Mike333 said:


> She has been working 3rd shift for the past 10 years (she likes 3rd shift) so there is someone home all the time for our kids. Now she can not change shifts as she needs to be off during the day 3 days a week to help her sick mother.


 Tell her that she needs to change her work schedule to accommodate that fact that you will not be there anymore once you file for divorce.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Mike333 said:


> no, and it's worse, we used to have weekends but she has been working a lot of overtime and now works 12 hours a day 5 days a week and then works 8 hours on the 6th day and we only see each other 1 day a week. As far as i know, she does not have a choice about the overtime.


 With the above work schedule and taking care of her sick mother 3 days a week when does she have time to see the other man? That is right out of time that she should be spending with you. Dude, wake up. She is looking to not have time with you. She does not treat you like a husband. To her you are just a room mate that helps pay the bills and babysits so that she can see her affair partner (AP) and have sex with him.

Your only chance to save this marraige is to be willing to end it. File for divorce and mean it. Divorces take time so you can change your mind if she gives you a good reason to. Do not be so willing to forgive too easy or she will cheat again.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

Mike, listen to people who have experience in these matters. This advice, think about it. Read other threads just as fledgling has been advised to do. You will be illuminated by the similarities in your situation and the actions needed to dark with them. 

The problem is, when one hasn't been cheated on, or when one is in the totally new waters of been cheated on, the advice seems counter to what SHOULD be necessary. It is not. It is action and reaction. Positive and difinitive all the way. 

Mike (and fledgling), we have all, most of us, been where you are now. Where being decisive, holding repurcussions to the cheating spouse, feels like you would be pushing them away. It is due only to the fact that they have put you on such rocky and unsteady ground in the first place. That shaky ground, the rug pulled out, you desperately try to steady it again. This does not work. Decisive action is the only thing you can do to bring the steady ground back again. 

A few analogies....A doormat, no matter how good a person they are, how lovely, will get treated as a doormat due to the fact they allow it. When someone feels they can walk on you, they are not niced out of it. Someone who takes advantage of a doormat is doing it because the doormat is allowing them to. 

Those who get treated with respect. Do they demand it? Or is it all wishy washy?

If a child steals from a sweet shop you don't sit them in that sweet shop and say when you are ready to eat sweets no more then maybe we could sit down and chat about it. Then walk off and leave them in there. Say carry on eating and let me know when you are done. No. They are given repurcussions because that will hopefully stop them stealing in the future. 

And fledgling, this one is for you. Have you ever been doing a job and someone with no experience whatsoever comes along and tells you how to do that job? 

This can be best seen when a woman is doing a 'man's' job. And she is doing it well. And then a man who has no idea comes along and tries to show her how to do it badly. This has happened to me and it is funny. But what you are doing is not funny. You are giving Mike advice on something you know nothing about, which is ok if it were helpful. I am afraid your advice is unhelpful, wishy washy, and your inexperience is glaring. Sorry. But you really should take the advice too of reading other threads, read books recommended. You will only know the true pain once you have lived it. I hope you don't get that opportunity. But you could always make an effort to understand. Until then, don't give bad advice on something you know nothing about on a subject that has so many huge repurcussions on others lives.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Mike - Given how this conversation developed, I can easily understand why you haven't been back. If you are reading, though, I would like to say one thing - about your thread title.

When someone cheats, the person doesn't want to think badly of him/herself, doesn't want to believe that he/she just made the choice to betray the person who was supposed to be closest to him/her. So, the cheater looks back at the marriage and finds justifications within it as a rationale for the cheating. He/she in effect rewrites the emotional history of the marriage in order to justify the infidelity.

So, if you don't follow the advice on aggressively working to shut down the affair, at least take heart that your W hasn't been feeling like a misfit for all these years. This claim is her way of justifying her bad behavior.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Fledgling said:


> If she truly loves him those emotions will come without him having to force it out of her. To me if you are going to invest time in a rocky marriage anyway why lower yourself to the lowest common denominator? That of being complete jerks to one another until someone gets tired of fighting and gives in?



Lower yourself? As in permitting your spouse to remain working with her affair partner and sharing her goods with another person? Or did you mean being a jerk to your WS (wayward spouse)?

Your views are not entirely in the right direction. You have good view points yet you contradict yourself.

If she TRULY loved him and family, she would not have cheated. If she TRULY loved him and family, she would quit and find a new job ASAP.

If she TRULY loved him and family, she would understand that her husband is hurt and this "lowest common denominator" was brought upon by HER ACTIONS, so reap what you SOW.


A cheating spouse needs to realize what trash act they have done and in order to clean up trash the BETRAYED SPOUSE has to get DIRTY!

ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. If she TRULY LOVED HIM AND HIS FAMILY, she would heed to his demands no questions ASKED !


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## weightlifter (Dec 14, 2012)

CleanJerkSnatch said:


> And why is that dangerous? Because some men are wolves. They seek out and prey on easy women, it all starts with a compliment then maybe some inappropriate chat, and I'm sure 90% of women do not put an end to it because either they like it or are to timid to say something about it and it goes on, testing boundaries until a spouse becomes betrayed.


Think I might just add that player confession from reddit thread to my sig. It shows the other side.

Fledge. FWIW. Soft advice largely leads to harder to detect cheating or the cheatER deciding to leave on their own on their time. 

I lurked here 2 months before posting. I stay because I keep getting widely spaced and ever differing red flags... Still working on that. 

I first came here because the brother of a friend was being cheated on or thought he was. I am the one that suggested the VAR that I read here. I am the one that initially was responsible for her being busted. Another friend followed her to a hotel two nights later from what she said on the VAR. D time. D is a slow process in the Northeast US.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

One thing that is never recommended to bringing a WS from the fog is being nice, and rug sweeping. Forgive easily yes? Sure why not, but expect reparations, FAST!


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Maybe Fledgling or Mike could read one or more of the post like this one written today. 




HusbandInPain said:


> OK, over a year on, time for a follow up I guess.
> 
> We wife and I are reconciling and things are going extremely well. We had a year of MC and are now both in IC. She is passionate about her IC and about our marriage. I have days where I am not so passionate about our marriage but in general things get easier as time goes on. We have boundaries in place and both defend them. She posts on an infidelity forum (not this one). She has spent a year working at the "why" of the affair, and we have spent a year working on improving communication within our marriage.
> 
> ...


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

anchorwatch beat me to it. But I will post anyway. As soon as I saw this post below I thought of this thread. Mike I hope you are still here. fledgling, enjoy!


Hardtohandle said:


> Did you bring up to her if it was just a friend that she was catching up with, then why did she have to have a fake name ?
> 
> She is what is called rug sweeping. Hit swift and hit hard. She is yelling to make you back off. The more she yells, the more you have to be calm but stern.
> 
> ...


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