# What makes us women?



## FirstYearDown

I am often told that if I do not have a child, I will not be a "whole" or "real" woman.  This is one of the reasons I no longer discuss our childfreedom with anyone. I just say that we cannot, which is not too far from the truth.

My therapist has told me that I need to define what being a woman is about for ME, outside of being a mother. 

In my eyes, being a woman is about maturity and acceptance. It is about knowing what I will and will not tolerate and what I deserve. It is being aware of when to walk away and when to keep fighting. Being a woman is about being comfortable in my own skin and having a firm grip on my beliefs and my morals. It is about controlling my own destiny and not being a victim.

Being a woman involves celebrating my unique feminine attributes and respecting my emotional contribution to my marriage, my friendships and my family of origin. It is about using my strength to retain some independence, instead of waiting for my husband to give me an identity. 

A woman can look at her childhood with adult eyes, instead of the wounded view of a child. It is being mindful that even though my parents may have been abusive, they may not have known any better at that time. Being a woman is also about knowing when to set boundaries with toxic family members, even if that means disconnecting to keep myself sane. 

What do the sagacious ladies of TAM think? Please DO NOT respond if you think that the only path to being a woman is motherhood.


----------



## that_girl

It's about having a vagina.  lolll I kid...but...a woman can be whatever she wants. She can chose whatever path she wants. A woman is a human, a friend, a sister, a daughter, a mother (if chooses), a wife (if chooses), a lover (if chooses), has a career or doesn't. I dunno. You are a woman without children. Do people really care? I never understood the obsession with other people's uteri.


----------



## FirstYearDown

Yes, unfortunately they do. People have too much time on their hands. Betcha they wouldn't like me asking _why they have children!_

I stopped letting a talented woman put braids (extensions) in my hair. She is just too overbearing and nosy. "You BETTER think about having a kid!! You really want to go through your life without children?! You'll go to hell; the Bible says to multiply!!"

This idiot has three kids for three different men. She is not with any of the fathers. :rofl: Yeah, she'd be good to listen to.


----------



## that_girl

:rofl: You should ask people why they DO have kids.

They couldn't answer you. I know I would say "wine". lol. People need to leave other people's uteruses alone. Uteri? lol I think it's uteri.


----------



## The_Swan

I, too am child free and have been married for 10 years. 
I have gotten a lot of flack from my large Catholic family about not having children right away.
We are considering having a child but really, if it doesn't happen, we are ok with that.

To me being a woman means: 
1) Understanding and loving yourself 

2) Being able to dispense wisdom and teach but at the same time learning and listening 

3) Knowing what your own balance is and recognizing that life is in constant flux and that you can evolve.


----------



## heartsbeating

FirstYearDown said:


> I am often told that if I do not have a child, I will not be a "whole" or "real" woman.  This is one of the reasons I no longer discuss our childfreedom with anyone. I just say that we cannot, which is not too far from the truth.
> 
> My therapist has told me that I need to define what being a woman is about for ME, outside of being a mother.
> 
> In my eyes, being a woman is about maturity and acceptance. It is about knowing what I will and will not tolerate and what I deserve. It is being aware of when to walk away and when to keep fighting. Being a woman is about being comfortable in my own skin and having a firm grip on my beliefs and my morals. It is about controlling my own destiny and not being a victim.
> 
> Being a woman involves celebrating my unique feminine attributes and respecting my emotional contribution to my marriage, my friendships and my family of origin. It is about using my strength to retain some independence, instead of waiting for my husband to give me an identity.
> 
> A woman can look at her childhood with adult eyes, instead of the wounded view of a child. It is being mindful that even though my parents may have been abusive, they may not have known any better at that time. Being a woman is also about knowing when to set boundaries with toxic family members, even if that means disconnecting to keep myself sane.
> 
> What do the sagacious ladies of TAM think? Please DO NOT respond if you think that the only path to being a woman is motherhood.


I'm not a mother and currently not planning to be either - but I think with asking the question 'what makes us women' it would be interesting to encourage answers from everyone, rather than excluding those who think being a woman equates with motherhood. I understand you're trying to guide the thread in a direction and encourage thinking beyond that scope. It sounds as though you're dealing with outside opinions and questioning for yourself, I get that, but I think part of being a woman is also a compassion and understanding of others. If being a woman is unrelated to children to you, then why would it bother you if that's what it meant to someone else? I think there's likely to be a varied response to your question and I'm interested in reading these. I'm glad that you asked it. 

The idea of a "woman" is socially constructed and you do have me thinking. I hope to be back later with more input.


----------



## FirstYearDown

heartsbeating said:


> I'm not a mother and currently not planning to be either - but I think with asking the question 'what makes us women' it would be interesting to encourage answers from everyone, rather than excluding those who think being a woman equates with motherhood. I don't agree that only mothers are real women. Why on earth would I want to hear from women who are small minded enough to believe such nonsense? It is insulting.
> 
> I understand you're trying to guide the thread in a direction and encourage thinking beyond that scope. It sounds as though you're dealing with outside opinions and questioning for yourself, I get that, but I think part of being a woman is also a compassion and understanding of others. I have extreme amounts of compassion. I don't think that excluding childfree or infertile females from the definition of "woman" is compassionate AT ALL.
> 
> If being a woman is unrelated to children to you, then why would it bother you if that's what it meant to someone else? It would only bother me if they were accusing me of being less female because I will not have children. I take offence to that.I think there's likely to be a varied response to your question and I'm interested in reading these. I'm glad that you asked it. Great, me too! :smthumbup:
> 
> The idea of a "woman" is socially constructed and you do have me thinking. I hope to be back later with more input.


----------



## heartsbeating

I don't agree that being a mother makes a 'woman' either, but I wouldn't find it insulting if someone else did. You have a point about those who exclude childfree or infertile females (which can then branch out further to those who aren't curvaceous or who have lost breasts to cancer etc) as being less than 'woman'. 

I think it's one thing to consider being a woman as relating to motherhood and the qualities that that can entail (to someone who feels this); it's another to judge someone else or think they are 'less than' if they are not a mother. To me they are two entirely different responses and stances.


----------



## FirstYearDown

I agree. Like I said, I am only insulted by the judging and "less than" attitude.

When I honestly observe my behavior, I do have very motherly qualities, despite not being a mom. I enjoy nurturing baby animals, my nieces and sometimes my husband.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Obsessively asking that very question is the clearest indication you are a woman.


----------



## that_girl

Runs like Dog said:


> Obsessively asking that very question is the clearest indication you are a woman.


:rofl:


----------



## FirstYearDown

Runs like Dog said:


> Obsessively asking that very question is the clearest indication you are a woman.


:scratchhead: I have never asked this question before, so I don't know what you are talking about.

I suppose simplistic and incorrect explanations make you male. 

I wanted to spark an interesting discussion about our ideas of gender characteristics.


----------



## that_girl

You are allll woman, B. Don't doubt yourself and don't let other women tell you otherwise


----------



## YinPrincess

I too, have this internal debate... I never planned to have children, but here I am, D months pregnant and scared of my future.

I like my space, A LOT of space, and I'm facing the fact that I will now have a constant companion for a llooonnngg time. I'm terrified and exhausted with the thought...

I like my independence... And now am facing threats to that independence with health problems and pregnancy... And I already have a husband so resentful of my 'neediness' which I abhor. I hate relying on anyone but myself...

My definitions of being a woman will now have to change to include the 'identity' of 'mom' and I feel much loss... I feel guilty saying it, but it's true. Everything I'd planned, we had planned, is now changing far too quickly now... :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## COGypsy

I have to say that in nearly 38 blissfully childfree years, I've never considered the possibility that my breeding status might have any effect on my gender identity. It's just one more choice I've made and moved on from there. But my choice to not have kids is also not something I announce, justify, debate or even really discuss with most people. If I'm asked if I have kids, I just say no and deflect the question back or change the subject. I find most people are far more interested in rambling about their kids, plans for kids etc, than they are in hearing about mine, lol. 

I'll say too though, that I haven't ever considered my choice not to have kids to be much of a choice. Very little 'decision' was involved. I just haven't ever had any innate desire to reproduce, so I take care not to. I also haven't ever had a desire to climb Everest, so I take care to plan vacations in other places 

I have the impression though, that you struggle a bit more with how to reconcile a very traditional marital structure with the elimination of a key aspect of that picture. I also haven't ever thought I needed to fit into any 'traditional' wifely molds or expected my husband to be my 'head' or my 'leader' or any of that. I just follow my passions and play to my strengths and expect the same from my partner along the way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FirstYearDown

My marriage is not overly traditional. We share household chores, rather than the old way of the wife doing it all. Rather than depending on my husband too much, I work and attend school. We also share decisions.

I used to be honest when people asked about kids. Saying that we cannot is easier.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

FirstYearDown said:


> I am often told that if I do not have a child, I will not be a "whole" or "real" woman.  This is one of the reasons I no longer discuss our childfreedom with anyone. I just say that we cannot, which is not too far from the truth.
> 
> My therapist has told me that I need to define what being a woman is about for ME, outside of being a mother.
> 
> In my eyes, being a woman is about maturity and acceptance. It is about knowing what I will and will not tolerate and what I deserve. It is being aware of when to walk away and when to keep fighting. Being a woman is about being comfortable in my own skin and having a firm grip on my beliefs and my morals. It is about controlling my own destiny and not being a victim.
> 
> Being a woman involves celebrating my unique feminine attributes and respecting my emotional contribution to my marriage, my friendships and my family of origin. It is about using my strength to retain some independence, instead of waiting for my husband to give me an identity.
> 
> A woman can look at her childhood with adult eyes, instead of the wounded view of a child. It is being mindful that even though my parents may have been abusive, they may not have known any better at that time. Being a woman is also about knowing when to set boundaries with toxic family members, even if that means disconnecting to keep myself sane.
> 
> What do the sagacious ladies of TAM think? Please DO NOT respond if you think that the only path to being a woman is motherhood.


FirstYearDown: 

There is likely not a woman on this forum who wanted kids MORE than ME. I was reduced to a basketcased angy emotional wreck when I was infertile -for near 7 years in my 20's, with many tests , probing & even surgery, I would do near anything to have more kids, would have sold my soul to the devil likely. We even had our 1stborn during that time... the unrelenting DRIVE within me to have more children was pretty severe. All I can say is... it was my hearts deepst cry.....something within me KNEW what I wanted and when they started coming, it DID the magic I felt it would - I felt complete....... But that is ME. This is NOT all woman, nor should it be.

My own mother was not cut out for being a Mother. She wanted a career instead, but did everything wrong, it screwed up her life. I learned from her -to DO what the hell WE want to do, regardless of what others think, if we find a mate on board with our dreams, we have found a treasure. At the end of the day, it is our happiness, our fullfillment - not theirs. Funny, as I always took more after my old fashioned Grandma than my own mother. 

Not all women should have kids. Too many who do -- many shouldn't have. Like you said, that one woman giving you her opinonated opinion -had 3 kids to 3 different men, you gotta feel bad for those young ones. 

I have a cousin, she is so intelligent in comparison to me, she is very happily married, she is a Doctors Assistent, works in the Emergency room- she has delivered babies, she works out every day, they love their vacation time, and she is very doting to her 3 dogs. She isn't missing any kids. Not a wink. 

My best friend growing up never had kids either, she was very busy with her career and traveling with her husband is what they lived for. I used to envy their vacation time, always at the beach, such leisure. In her case, she did change her mind around 40, but came down with Graves disease & couldn't acheive a pregnancy around her treatment, so it didn't happen. *But that never defined her*! She is very happy with her life, fullfilled to the max, always a joy to be around!

*ALL WOMAN*, both of these fine ladies. And so many more I personally know, many of them are so doting on thier neices & nephws, I almost envy those kids with the love of these Aunts! How is that not important in someone's life. I know of 2 women who were Teachers who never chose to have thier own kids, but still devoted their lives to teaching other's children. Now that is....GIVING.....Giving back to society, using our talents. 

They do more on thier jobs every day, than I feel I do sitting at home while my kids are in school. I would never dare think I am "more of anything" just cause I had kids and they did not. 

Now, I will say, I have been guilty of asking other women if they ever wanted kids, but NEVER to dare say or even THINK some of the crazy things you have been told by some looney mothers. I am just curious, I also wouldn't mind if someone asked me why I had so many - some think I am crazy & outright tell me they would pull thier hair out - It is just conversation, not judgement, at least not from me.

I would even go so far as to say, MY wanting them has a "selfish" nature -as I ENJOY "being Needed", having the opportuntiy to mold little lives appeals to me, maybe I like a little power -I admit I like a little chaos. For the lifestyle I live, childen just FIT, I am a homebuddy, I love to play Hostess to large parties, I have a rather appealing Drill Seargent personality to keep all these rug rats in line- plus take on thier friends, I am a master organizer & Scheduler, and I know how to bring Joy to thier lives without being over burdensome & too doting & smothering, which some mothers get caught up in and thier kids suffer as they grow older. Too often parents try to LIVE through their children also. Not healthy. 

I wholeheartily agree with all of the things you spoke in your opening post (above) about "being a woman".... celebrate yourself !


----------



## heartsbeating

SimplyAmorous said:


> Now, I will say, I have been guilty of asking other women if they ever wanted kids, but NEVER to dare say or even THINK some of the crazy things you have been told by some looney mothers. I am just curious, I also wouldn't mind if someone asked me why I had so many - some think I am crazy & outright tell me they would pull thier hair out - It is just conversation, not judgement, at least not from me.


When I'm asked if we have children or when we plan to, I'm never offended by it. I've never felt judged or been considered 'less than' in the way FirstYearDown has experienced. My answer is simply "No we don't have kids." then I usually giggle and add "We did get a dog though; that's responsibility enough for me!" and this usually gets a laugh. I'll ask them if they have kids and we chat from there.

It's interesting thinking about this thread. Unrelated to how I view a 'woman' and just thinking about the children aspect, I have been told by my husband, a few girlfriends and even a couple of male friends that I'd make a wonderful mother. I have prompted them why they have said this and heard what they had to say. Even though I don't plan on having kids, I honestly think it's been the highest compliment I have ever received. 

SA ~ I loved reading your response. I know I've told you this before, but you really were a huge reason as to why I stuck around these parts. Thank you for your continued honesty and way of relating.



wifeofhusband said:


> There seemed to be a general assumption that if you stayed home with children, it was because you couldn't do anything else. Wrong. I could do plenty else, I'm very intelligent and capable, I just choose to make my family my career and direct my intelligence into that. I remember bumping into a past acquaintance from my academic days who said to me, "You stay home with your children?! But YOU were meant to have an amazing career!". I just replied, "I have a career, thanks". This is probably similar to the disdain childfree women feel they experience. One thing I have learned over the years is that, no matter what choice you make, someone will always think you are doing the wrong thing. Don't worry what anyone thinks and just do what is right for you.


My mother experienced this type of disdain from other women at my dad's work functions, as she was a SAHM. Her stories obviously stuck with me because I notice that when I meet someone new, I never ask "What do you do?" instead I ask "How do you spend your time?" I've found asking someone how they spend their time, seems to allow for a more interesting dialogue. And with thinking of my mom, I hope that I'd never put someone in a position to feel how she sometimes felt.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

heartsbeating said:


> My mother experienced this type of disdain from other women at my dad's work functions, as she was a SAHM. Her stories obviously stuck with me because I notice that when I meet someone new, I never ask "What do you do?" instead I ask "How do you spend your time?" I've found asking someone how they spend their time, seems to allow for a more interesting dialogue. And with thinking of my mom, I hope that I'd never put someone in a position to feel how she sometimes felt.


I like that ..."How do you spend your time"? :smthumbup: 
You are very "considerate" Heartsbeating of another's possible insecurities- as your Mother felt this. When I think of YOUR relating... graceful & elegant comes to mind -always. Except with your brother that one day -ha ha -but he had it coming ! 

I've definitely felt "inferior" to some Career women, like I am "less" because I am dependent on a MAN to take care of me, I can not relate to thier fast paced 1st class business world at all really. Or I wonder how will some see me if I don't go to work when the smallest is in kidnergarten -all day (next year in fact). 

I likely "think" about this - the "lazy" "uneducated" stigma on SAHM's -that I feel society has slowly raised - I would compare this in a similar manner that FirstYearDown does....it is somehow "expected" of women to work this day & age..... the same she sees women having children, so even us Mothers have our own little insecurities to deal with, at least those of us who do not work. 

I've been told too, that I could have done SO MUCH MORE with my life. I REALLY disappointed this one Professional man, he found me working in a Restaurant , offered me a job as his personal Secretary, he saw potential in me- which helped grow my lagging self-esteem back then, so the experience was a blessing to me. He would constantly try to talk me out of getting married & heading to College to be a Paralegal, he was convinced this is what I should do with my life......He knew I was a natural for the gift of argument & research was a joy to me..... but what did I do....

I kept telling him I just wanted to ....get married, live on a farm and be barefoot and pregnant..... after a time -he realized I was beyond hope, I was bound and determined to do just that. Some things were just WRITTEN on my heart. 

To grow old with little reget to what we did with the talents God gave us ...with so many choices in this wonderful life, this is the key. Although I could see me being a high spirited cunning Lawyer, making Mega $$, picture perfect house in the Suburbs, High earing husband by my side, traveling to my hearts desire 1st class yet ...... 

I would still choose to be in my old country farmhouse changing a poopy diaper, looking out my big picture window at the serenity of the green grass, the corn fields in the distance with a family of wild turkeys strolling past, I don't even mind when the farmers next door fumigate the area when laying their mature- what we call "Fresh country air". I thank God every day for where I am. 

One of my fondest memories is ....watching my 2 little boys-one day they just ran outside naked, I watched them playing together- so excited - carrying little buckets of water back & forth across the grass ....to make a river in their big sandbox, I ran & snapped the most adorable picture of their little butts -hauling those containers of sloushing water side by side. This was what I lived for ......moments like that.

Now if you can read that -and have no pangs of jealousy, then this is not meant for you. Reading something like that when I couldn't conceive would seriously P*** me off, I was angry at the world, no jealously overtook me more than the desire to bare more children. But again, that is ME. 

Another woman might have abundant stories of the people she helped in her life, this is what gives her JOY , purpose. She has so much more time & energy to devote to such causes, maybe she will be a social activist who changes our world for the better. Maybe she just wants to devote every living second to her man. Maybe he eats that up! Whatever Drives YOU..... whatever well spring is inside of you prompting to do this or that, connect with it, embrance it and no apologies necessary to anyone else who comes across our path. 

I have a neice who is now 23 yrs old, she wants to be a Veterinarian, she cares NOTHING about having a boyfriend, marraige, kids. She is bound, determined & DRIVEN to get through Vet school , those are her DREAMS, her heart is with animals. I am in awe of her work ethic and the $$ she is putting towards these dreams. The cost is near equivalent to the college education of a Medical Doctor. You think I could hold a candle to tell her MY choices are better than hers, hell no!

We are all different, Thank God for it. I still could sit and enjoy my neices stores of rescusing animals, their lives hanging by a thread, hearing the love & caring in her voice for them- someday but I wouldn't be a bit jealous of her lifestyle, her social status as a Dr--- even if my life is so more simple, even mundane in comparison.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

I just want to add, I am sitting here with my oldest son, I mentioned the subject of this thread to him, he just said ....."that's cool, that is admirable, there are too many people in the world, the world can't support it '...but then he adds ..."I am selfish, I want to have my DNA running around, I want kids someday".


----------



## Trenton

I think even being a girl is to be celebrated. Maybe we've all forgotten how we stayed up all night pining over a boy we loved, imagined our hands in one another's and planned out our dream lives together...or was that just me?! I was also in musicals as a child on a regular basis and you can bet that I would picture myself on Broadway regularly...belting my heart out and reaching people with my songs. We're all different in the choices we make and desires we have and because we tend to think so much and couple that with caring about how others view and feel about us and are very able to feel for them, we can be messy, beautiful, confusing creatures. We can be anything.

Being a woman, for me, definitely seemed to happen when I had children because I learned right away what happiness intense sacrifice could bring me. I also learned of a new, and equally amazing, awe inspiring love that I didn't believe could exist prior to having kids. It is so much work to have children and a woman's body goes through so much transition that it is really miraculous. How crazy is it that you can multiply your up's and down's by the amount of children you have?

So this isn't true for everyone? I get that and really don't mind, care or become worried by it. I'm a woman but I'm also an individual and I fully understand that the experiences I've had may not be perfect for everyone. I've never regretted being a woman, being a girl or being a mother or wife. I didn't get to choose the first two roles but I wouldn't change them for the world because they led to the other two and I enjoy both of those immensely.


----------



## Runs like Dog

FirstYearDown said:


> :scratchhead: I have never asked this question before, so I don't know what you are talking about.
> 
> I suppose simplistic and incorrect explanations make you male.
> 
> I wanted to spark an interesting discussion about our ideas of gender characteristics.


Someone asked me once what I thought gay was. I said gay is who you love not who you screw.


----------



## chattycathy

I think a great reply to the statement is

"We are still on our honeymoon."

You can say it now, ten years from now, fifty years from now.....whether you ever have children or not.

A woman is a complex thing. It is all sorts of aspects of a life. If you have children, you are a woman who had them. If you didn't, you are a woman who did not. Both are women.


----------



## FirstYearDown

I will admit that when I was younger, I looked down on women who were not independent and chose to live for their husbands and children. What a close minded sod I was! Now I realize that just because a woman chooses to be a SAHM, it doesn't make her any less intelligent or worthy of respect.

Everyone walks their own path to happiness. I don't think that SAHM's get enough recognition for how much they do! I lack the patience for being an effective parent and any woman who can be a good mother should be applauded.:smthumbup:

There used to be a backlash against women who sought careers and education. Now the social pendulum has swung too far the other way; women who derive satisfaction from being housewives/SAHM are scorned. How sad-women are just too judgemental and hateful to each other.

I am happy and confident in my choice to forgo motherhood. However, it still hurts me when other females tell me that I less womanly than them, just because I do not want children. I recently left my best friend's baby shower very early, because I didn't appreciate how condescending some of the mothers were. One of them had the nerve to tell me that my newborn niece didn't feel safe in my arms, because she sensed that I don't have children. 

I avoid baby showers because I am made to feel like a two headed freak. "You don't have any kids? Why not? Does your husband shoot blanks? You're getting too old not to be a mother." I wish I was kidding about these horribly nasty and ignorant comments. I have nothing to contribute to discussions about being a parent, because I am not one.


----------



## that_girl

I cannot believe the rudeness of people to get into your personal life like that! LOL Omg! Some nerve! I've never witnessed it...maybe that is because we are from CA where not having kids isn't the craziest thing ever  I don't know.

I got an education. Then a career. Then a baby. Then another baby. My career works around their schedule so I am somewhat like a SAHM  I kinda got the best of both worlds...I couldn't actually stay home with them all day. lol. I'd go insane.


----------



## couple

Even within a single society/culture, 'being a woman' means very different things to different people so the premise of your question is difficult to deal with. For some, short hair, comfortable shoes, liking other women, etc. is not 'being a woman. It's also not uncommon for big, curvy woman to say that 'too skinny' women aren't real women. Doesn't the Dove ad campaign even suggest that 'real women' are big women? Somehow this is politically correct.

So when there is so much disagreement about the concept of 'real woman' why bother worrying? Your worry shows discomfort with your choice/situation. 

At a certain point in my life when reviewing my options for life, I explored the 'child free' movement. I was completely turned off. Instead of seeing people comfortable with their choices and those of people with children, I saw a lot of bitterness. The different vocabulary ('breeders' etc) was a bit too much for me. They seemed constantly driven to reaffirm their choice. Totally turned off and could not relate to it. I'm not saying that all people who don't have children are like this. Just making an observation that many who take pains to show that they are comfortable with their choice seem anything but.


----------



## that_girl

I still hold to my first reaction when I saw this question:

"What makes us women?"

"A vagina."


----------



## FirstYearDown

couple said:


> Even within a single society/culture, 'being a woman' means very different things to different people so the premise of your question is difficult to deal with. For some, short hair, comfortable shoes, liking other women, etc. is not 'being a woman. It's also not uncommon for big, curvy woman to say that 'too skinny' women aren't real women. Doesn't the Dove ad campaign even suggest that 'real women' are big women? Somehow this is politically correct.
> 
> So when there is so much disagreement about the concept of 'real woman' why bother worrying? Your worry shows discomfort with your choice/situation. Who is worried? :scratchhead:As I said before, I am *interested in all the different perspectives*. The disagreement makes for interesting discussion. My thread has *nothing *to do with whether or not it is okay to be childfree. Reread my posts and you will understand. There is no way I would want my husband to have a vasectomy if I was uncomfortable with my choice....I am counting the days. :smthumbup:
> 
> At a certain point in my life when reviewing my options for life, I explored the 'child free' movement. I was completely turned off. Instead of seeing people comfortable with their choices and those of people with children, I saw a lot of bitterness. This I agree with. I once suggested that good parents deserve respect and I was chased off that particular Facebook childfree page, because I dared to believe that all choices are fine. Hate solves nothing! These childfree zealots are just as bad as the women that insult me. The different vocabulary ('breeders' etc) was a bit too much for me. They seemed constantly driven to reaffirm their choice.I believe this defensive stance comes from being told that they are wrong or abnormal. There is not even a hint of that in my posts, so perhaps you are lumping me in with other childfree people you have encountered. Totally turned off and could not relate to it. I'm not saying that all people who don't have children are like this. Just making an observation that many who take pains to show that they are comfortable with their choice seem anything but.


----------



## that_girl

:rofl: "Breeders" That's what our gay friends call me and Hubs. :rofl:


----------



## Enchantment

It used to be that women had few choices in life - in generations past they were often defined by whether they were married, they were defined by whether they had children. The roles they were allowed to play were often very limited.

I remember one of my grandmothers used to send me cards that would be addressed "Dear Enchantment (no children)," because in her generation and in her mind's eye you weren't considered a woman unless you were married and you had kids. The fact I was married, but went 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 - 6 years! before having a child really bothered her. 

Didn't bother me at all. I wanted to make sure that I felt ready for it.

I am wholeheartedly glad that most of us (wish there weren't places in the world where women still do not have these kinds of choices) do have those kinds of choices in our lives - to get married or not, to have children or not, to work outside the home or not.

None of those ultimtely defines us as women, though. that_girl is right when she says what MAKES you a woman is simply a matter of genetics. What DEFINES you, however, is decided by you and your choices. 

The following is more my philosophy, along with the caveat to make whatever you do decide to do in life (or get thrown your way) as good as you possibly can. 

_“Life is what you make it. Always has been, always will be. ” ~ Eleanor Roosevelt_

Or as another of my favorite writers said:

_“There is no value in life except what you choose to place upon it and no happiness in any place except what you bring to it yourself.” 
~ Henry David Thoreau _


----------



## couple

FYD,

I'm not lumping you in with the other childfree people that i encountered in this 'movement'. From your last post, it's clear that you can't relate to them either. I only brought this up because even though at one point in my life I was resigned to remain 'childfree' and appreciated this as a legitimate lifestyle choice and I was looking for others who felt the same way. However, I did not at all relate to this movement which promotes itself as recognising childfree as a healthy lifestyle option. I found the whole thing very unhealthy. I appreciate the pressure that people put on having children and that's part of the reason that I wanted to reach out to others. Anyway I don't want to hijack this thread any further.

I just wonder if there are any places where childfree people can gather without all of the 'childfree' unhealthy bitterness and anti-breeder nonsense. Not for me as I decided against remaining childfree, however, I do appreciate it as a perfectly valid lifestyle choice.


----------



## Trenton

The "childfree" and "breeders" things is a wee bit weird and offensive. I certainly don't belong to a "childfull" club and talk about the "unfruitfuls". Maybe those who suggest you might want children just think you might be interested in the experience? I doubt they were intending it as an insult. 

It's also weird to on one hand say that you stay away from baby showers while at the same time constantly post about how proud and happy you are about your "childfree" life. That's cool, I get it. You don't want to have kids. I really don't care. I've never given a crap whether people "breeded" or not. It's totally a personal choice and I think has little to do with being a woman. That_girl is right...being a woman means having a vagina.


----------



## heartsbeating

SimplyAmorous said:


> I like that ..."How do you spend your time"? :smthumbup:
> You are very "considerate" Heartsbeating of another's possible insecurities- as your Mother felt this. When I think of YOUR relating... graceful & elegant comes to mind -always. Except with your brother that one day -ha ha -but he had it coming !


Aww thankyou, that's lovely to read ...and you made me chuckle mentioning that scenario!

I'd like to add that I ask both men and women "How do you spend your time?" It just seems to open a different dialogue than simply asking if someone has a job and what that is. We are not defined by our jobs. I'm interested in more than that.



SimplyAmorous said:


> I've definitely felt "inferior" to some Career women, like I am "less" because I am dependent on a MAN to take care of me, I can not relate to thier fast paced 1st class business world at all really. Or I wonder how will some see me if I don't go to work when the smallest is in kidnergarten -all day (next year in fact).
> 
> I likely "think" about this - the "lazy" "uneducated" stigma on SAHM's -that I feel society has slowly raised - I would compare this in a similar manner that FirstYearDown does....it is somehow "expected" of women to work this day & age..... the same she sees women having children, so even us Mothers have our own little insecurities to deal with, at least those of us who do not work.


Last week I bumped into an ex-colleague from when we both worked corporate. I haven't seen her since moving back, so it's been about 2-3 years. I knew she'd had a second child in that time and I asked about her family. She then seemed to apologetically explain as to why she wasn't working anymore. If I hadn't experienced my mom's stories, it's likely I would have been completely confused by her reaction. I responded (and was laughing while saying this, as it was meant to be light-hearted), that before getting my new job, it was really hard to leave our new dog at home so I couldn't even imagine how hard it must be to leave a baby to go to work and that if she has the option not to work, then good for her and I don't blame her for wanting to spend time with her children. Thankfully she laughed along and got the humor with my dog story. And for the record, I don't treat my dog like a kid - he's a dog and is treated as such! 



SimplyAmorous said:


> Now if you can read that -and have no pangs of jealousy, then this is not meant for you. Reading something like that when I couldn't conceive would seriously P*** me off, I was angry at the world, no jealously overtook me more than the desire to bare more children. But again, that is ME.


I've always considered myself somewhat a city girl but I can feel that changing ....lately I've been craving quietness and nature and a lifestyle around that. I admired your reflections and while there was no pangs of jealousy surrounding family, I could certainly feel myself desiring the landscape you described. And I'm happy for you that you are living the life you wanted.



SimplyAmorous said:


> Whatever Drives YOU..... whatever well spring is inside of you prompting to do this or that, connect with it, embrance it and no apologies necessary to anyone else who comes across our path.


I love this and wholeheartedly agree!


----------



## heartsbeating

Trenton said:


> That_girl is right...being a woman means having a vagina.


I disagree - I think having a vagina makes one _female_. Okay, so yes, a woman is also female too. But this is where I think the construction of _woman_ comes into place.

To consider what I believe a woman to be, she would exude certain qualities. To me, a woman is someone that has maturity. She displays compassion, intuition, self-acceptance and strength. She is able to embrace and welcome. She is able to set boundaries and say no. She is emotional but is not a slave to her emotions. She allows herself to be vulnerable. She has self-respect. She inspires. She is comfortable in her own skin and from that place, she helps to put others at ease too. There is a kindness and softness as well as an inner strength. She is intelligent. And being intelligent doesn't equate to having a degree, no it's more than that. It's about wisdom and social intelligence. A woman is able to say sorry and admit her mistakes. A woman is someone you trust, you know you are seeing the real them, and you know she sees beyond the superficial. She has self-awareness.

This to me is what a _woman_ is.


----------



## Runs like Dog

Ovarian-Americans?


----------



## that_girl

I don't think of myself as a "woman". I am just a human...with a vagina...who likes pretty things. In my philosophical thoughts, I am myself, my soul, in a female's body.

All this other talk makes no sense to me. You are who you are. If you're female, you are a woman, and whatever you chose to do with that title is up to you and should take no scorn from other people.


----------



## FirstYearDown

Trenton said:


> The "childfree" and "breeders" things is a wee bit weird and offensive. I certainly don't belong to a "childfull" club and talk about the "unfruitfuls". Maybe those who suggest you might want children just think you might be interested in the experience? I doubt they were intending it as an insult. When did I say that the suggestion I may want children is insulting? Read my other posts again. "Childfree" is a term that implies that our lives are not lacking anything by not having children, hence eschewment of the word "childless."
> 
> It's also weird to on one hand say that you stay away from baby showers while at the same time constantly post about how proud and happy you are about your "childfree" life. That's cool, I get it. You don't want to have kids. I really don't care. I've never given a crap whether people "breeded" or not. It's totally a personal choice and I think has little to do with being a woman. That_girl is right...being a woman means having a vagina. Does it offend you when I post about my choice? I'm not sure why; I have no issue with members that always post about their children. I avoid baby showers because I am not interested in defending my choice or fielding inappropriate questions.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

heartsbeating said:


> To me, a woman is someone that has maturity. She displays compassion, intuition, self-acceptance and strength. She is able to embrace and welcome. She is able to set boundaries and say no. She is emotional but is not a slave to her emotions. She allows herself to be vulnerable. She has self-respect. She inspires. She is comfortable in her own skin and from that place, she helps to put others at ease too. There is a kindness and softness as well as an inner strength. She is intelligent. And being intelligent doesn't equate to having a degree, no it's more than that. It's about wisdom and social intelligence. A woman is able to say sorry and admit her mistakes. A woman is someone you trust, you know you are seeing the real them, and you know she sees beyond the superficial. She has self-awareness.
> 
> This to me is what a _woman_ is.


Oh Baby, where did you get all of that !! That was near inspirational and covered seriously.... E V E R Y T H I N G !! - and you see, nothing about motherhood , nor having a career was even required . Love it ! :smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## Trenton

heartsbeating said:


> I disagree - I think having a vagina makes one _female_. Okay, so yes, a woman is also female too. But this is where I think the construction of _woman_ comes into place.
> 
> To consider what I believe a woman to be, she would exude certain qualities. To me, a woman is someone that has maturity. She displays compassion, intuition, self-acceptance and strength. She is able to embrace and welcome. She is able to set boundaries and say no. She is emotional but is not a slave to her emotions. She allows herself to be vulnerable. She has self-respect. She inspires. She is comfortable in her own skin and from that place, she helps to put others at ease too. There is a kindness and softness as well as an inner strength. She is intelligent. And being intelligent doesn't equate to having a degree, no it's more than that. It's about wisdom and social intelligence. A woman is able to say sorry and admit her mistakes. A woman is someone you trust, you know you are seeing the real them, and you know she sees beyond the superficial. She has self-awareness.
> 
> This to me is what a _woman_ is.


I think you're describing what is a good woman rather than a woman, but I'm not sure I qualify via your definition. My maturity is lacking and at times I'm a slave to my emotions. Boo.


----------



## Trenton

FYD, it doesn't offend me. It makes me think....hmmm...FYD seems pretty hung up on this child/no child thing I wonder what her deal is. That about sums it up. What I'm telling you, in all honesty and without saying it makes you a bad or good person or that I think it's wrong or right, when I read some of your posts I think to myself...FYD is really struggling with her decision not to have children and what that means to her and those in her world.

I think people talk about their children because children are a large part of their lives. They interact and care for them every day. There are a lot of experiences that come from that (both good, bad and in-between) and so they share them.


----------



## FirstYearDown

Being childfree is a large part of my life too. We are all free to post whatever is important to us here. 

I have repeated this several times in this thread: _I have never struggled with my choice_. 

I believe that some mothers _want _me to be uncomfortable with my choice. Perhaps they cannot imagine being happy without children, so they project their own lack of understanding onto me.

Live and let live.


----------



## Trenton

FirstYearDown said:


> Being childfree is a large part of my life too. We are all free to post whatever is important to us here.
> 
> I have repeated this several times in this thread: _I have never struggled with my choice_.
> 
> I believe that some mothers _want _me to be uncomfortable with my choice. Perhaps they cannot imagine being happy without children, so they project their own lack of understanding onto me.
> 
> Live and let live.


How can lack of something be a big part of your life except for that it is not there? Childfree? I mean...do you really need to come up with a term for it. That's basically making you stick out, not blend in. My point is that it's you who makes a big deal about it not those with children. I don't think any mother here cares one way or the other but that is just my perception.

I don't know about the not being able to imagine a Mother's life without children. I do it all the time. hahaha!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

FirstYearDown said:


> I believe that some mothers _want _me to be uncomfortable with my choice. Perhaps they cannot imagine being happy without children, so they project their own lack of understanding onto me.
> 
> Live and let live.


 The way you worded this, made me think of Religion, how many feel it is their duty to push thier beliefs on another. I think you should print some of these out (below) and if ever, there is a next time where someone /anyone is trying to push their "way of convinced thinking"- their beliefs of fullfillment onto you, you should slowly open your purse, take one of these out , smile & hand it to them to read . Yeah, it is a little bold, but -if more looked at the world like this, we would all get along better and be more supportive, even with our differences. 





> "*Different Drums for Different Drummers*"
> 
> If I do not want what you want, please try not to tell me that my want is wrong.
> 
> Or if I believe other than you, at least pause before you correct my view.
> 
> Or if my emotion is less than yours, or more, given the same circumstances, try not to ask me to feel more strongly or weakly.
> 
> Or yet if I act, or fail to act, in the manner of your design for action, let me be. I do not, for the moment at least, ask you to understand me. That will come only when you are willing to give up changing me into a copy of you.
> 
> If you will allow me any of my own wants, or emotions, or beliefs, or actions, then you open yourself to the possibility that some day these ways of mine might not seem so wrong, and might finally appear as right--- FOR ME. To put up with me is the 1st step to understanding me.
> 
> Not that you embrace my ways as right for you, but that you are no longer irritated or disappointed with me for my seeming waywardness. And in understanding me you might come to prize my differences from you, and, far from seeking to change me, preserve and even nurture those differences.
> 
> I may be your spouse, your parent, your offspring, your friend, or your colleague. But whatever our relation, this I know: You and I are fundamentally different and both of us have to march to our own drummer.


----------



## heartsbeating

Trenton said:


> I think you're describing what is a good woman rather than a woman, but I'm not sure I qualify via your definition. My maturity is lacking and at times I'm a slave to my emotions. Boo.


I wouldn't dare to suggest that I qualify with my own definition either. You're right though - it's describing the qualities I think of if I consider the essence and qualities of a woman; a good woman, a wise woman, the things that I'd consider to truly be a matured _woman_ and the wonderful qualities of such a person.


----------



## heartsbeating

Runs like Dog said:


> Ovarian-Americans?


lol

... except I'm not American!


----------



## heartsbeating

that_girl said:


> I don't think of myself as a "woman". I am just a human...with a vagina...who likes pretty things. In my philosophical thoughts, I am myself, my soul, in a female's body.
> 
> All this other talk makes no sense to me. You are who you are. If you're female, you are a woman, and whatever you chose to do with that title is up to you and should take no scorn from other people.


And this is why I suggested earlier that 'woman' is constructed. When I think of labels and definitions, I give myself a headache! Yet with considering this question that FYD asked, it's had me considering all the wonderful women in my life and the qualities they have.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Trenton said:


> How can lack of something be a big part of your life except for that it is not there? Childfree? I mean...do you really need to come up with a term for it. That's basically making you stick out, not blend in. My point is that it's you who makes a big deal about it not those with children. I don't think any mother here cares one way or the other but that is just my perception.


I have to agree with Trenton, that I seriously doubt most moms would care at all. I know it wouldn't bother me a bit if every one of my friends didn't choose to have kids. They are still my friends. 

I do have to wonder though, just being honest now, given the comments you have received & shared on this thread from these MOMS at the showers, etc - with such a *nasty *tone to them..... if you had some kind of exchange about how you are very proud to be "childless" that they felt judged somehow for thier descions and ended up cutting back on you .....Possible? 

Those comments were especially vile. Just trying to make sense of it.


----------



## heartsbeating

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have to agree with Trenton, that I seriously doubt most moms would care at all. I know it wouldn't bother me a bit if every one of my friends didn't choose to have kids. They are still my friends.
> 
> I do have to wonder though, just being honest now, given the comments you have received & shared on this thread from these MOMS at the showers, etc - with such a *nasty *tone to them..... if you had some kind of exchange about how you are very proud to be "childless" that they felt judged somehow for thier descions and ended up cutting back on you .....Possible?
> 
> Those comments were especially vile. Just trying to make sense of it.


I was surprised to read this too. It made me wonder why you surround yourself with such people, or what kind of friends you have that would treat you this way. And in return, how do you come across to them? I wouldn't surround myself with people like that. It's almost irrelevant that it's about this 'child/childfree' stuff - it's telling of them. If they weren't saying this to you, I imagine it'd be a nastiness related to something else, whether to you or another. Personally, I don't do nasty and have no tolerance for it. Maybe it's time to look at who's surrounding you in life and why...?


----------



## FirstYearDown

It might be hard for you to believe or understand, but in my _daily life_, mothers are the ones that give me a hard time about my choice. I thought this was obvious with the examples I have given, but maybe not in your eyes. 

Your perception doesn't make much sense, since I _clearly _ mentioned who takes an issue with my views on having children.  It was never the mothers on TAM, Trenton. Did you see me post about the moms here? :scratchhead:

I'm sure you know, that I did not come up with the term childfree. I use it on TAM because it makes sense to me. I don't use that word in real life, because explaining would take too long and I don't feel the need to offer an explanation. 

For someone who doesn't care what I do, you seem determined to impose your own beliefs about my choice. There is no need to fabricate words just a prove a point; we both know that I never stated that the mothers on TAM make a big deal about me being childfree.


----------



## FirstYearDown

SimplyAmorous said:


> I have to agree with Trenton, that I seriously doubt most moms would care at all. I know it wouldn't bother me a bit if every one of my friends didn't choose to have kids. They are still my friends.
> 
> I do have to wonder though, just being honest now, given the comments you have received & shared on this thread from these MOMS at the showers, etc - with such a *nasty *tone to them..... if you had some kind of exchange about how you are very proud to be "childless" that they felt judged somehow for thier descions and ended up cutting back on you .....Possible?
> 
> Those comments were especially vile. Just trying to make sense of it.


I would NEVER gloat about not having children to mothers at a baby shower.  That would be uncouth, insensitive and dreadfully inappropriate. 

Some people are just mean. My experiences have formed my opinion and it is nice that the mommies *here *are not like that. 

Heartsbeating, when I have attended baby showers, I was only there for a special friend or relative. There were women at these gatherings that I never met until then. When I meet people that are negative, I choose not to keep them around.

Hope that makes sense.


----------



## that_girl

Sometimes, I wish I was childless LOLLLL Seriously. Tonight is one of those nights. Luckily, bedtime is soon.


----------



## Trenton

FirstYearDown said:


> It might be hard for you to believe or understand, but in my _daily life_, mothers are the ones that give me a hard time about my choice. I thought this was obvious with the examples I have given, but maybe not in your eyes.
> 
> Your perception doesn't make much sense, since I _clearly _ mentioned who takes an issue with my views on having children.  It was never the mothers on TAM, Trenton. Did you see me post about the moms here? :scratchhead:
> 
> I'm sure you know, that I did not come up with the term childfree. I use it on TAM because it makes sense to me. I don't use that word in real life, because explaining would take too long and I don't feel the need to offer an explanation.
> 
> For someone who doesn't care what I do, you seem determined to impose your own beliefs about my choice. There is no need to fabricate words just a prove a point; we both know that I never stated that the mothers on TAM make a big deal about me being childfree.


Settle down Beavis (see what I meant about the maturity thing).

What I was saying is that I think you come across as defensive about your choices on TAM and I've no idea why since no one here makes a big deal about your choices. Since we both agree on that one. What gives?

As for perception, I'm open to correction but I disagree that you're not defensive here...even if you recognize that no one here cares when you talk about being childfree you are always in defensive mode.

If you get it all the time in your every day life then you need to make some changes to the people you hang around with. You're right, I really really can't imagine it because I've never faced it or been around it. I have a few friends who are married but choose not to have children and at times I envy them and at other times I wonder why but never would I tell them that their choice was incorrect or correct. 

It's their life, they're my friends and I want them to be happy in their lives. Honestly, I want nothing but happiness for you in your life too. So please, don't take my criticism as me saying that you're someone I think is horrible or wrong...it's not at all how I feel. You've spoken about the joy you get from children in your life and the happiness between your husband and yourself. I think these are great things and greater indication of who you are overall. I only noticed that you seem defensive. I don't think you should have to be.


----------



## Trenton

that_girl said:


> Sometimes, I wish I was childless LOLLLL Seriously. Tonight is one of those nights. Luckily, bedtime is soon.


Usually at least three times a day I wish I was childless. Right now two of my three are sick and one out of the three just hit me with a huge school project that is due tomorrow yet when asked at the beginning of Holiday claimed he had no homework or projects. :smthumbup:


----------



## that_girl

Mine is doing the same! Holy crap...she has a paper due tomorrow and just started. lol.

But, B, my best friend is on her 4th baby in 4 years. Her and her husband are secure and life is great for them. It's their choice, right? OMG You wouldn't believe the crap they get for having so many children so fast. I honestly can't understand why other people care about other's uteri and sex life SO MUCH


----------



## FirstYearDown

People need to mind their own goddamn business. 

My MIL is the overbearing type. She loves to tell my SIL how to raise her daughter, who happens to be my avatar. 

MIL even has the nerve to tell everyone, that my SIL should be pregnant again because my niece is almost two.  Bloody hell, can my MIL be any more ridiculous and nosy?? Only my SIL can decide how many babies she has and when!


----------



## Trenton

that_girl said:


> Mine is doing the same! Holy crap...she has a paper due tomorrow and just started. lol.
> 
> But, B, my best friend is on her 4th baby in 4 years. Her and her husband are secure and life is great for them. It's their choice, right? OMG You wouldn't believe the crap they get for having so many children so fast. I honestly can't understand why other people care about other's uteri and sex life SO MUCH


My son was told he's being woken up at 6am to do the project with his Dad. A few almost tears and then off to bed. Yay! It's not my problem.

It is weird how everyone wants a say in everyone else's reproductive rights. I have a friend who has four children all within 2 years of one another and all girls but she is also in a secure family that wants for nothing and she's the most generous & school active parent/person I know. Although I don't think anyone's criticized her for having so many kids. I'm just in awe. I know I couldn't do it for the life of me. Mine are all at least 4 years apart and if I had more than one baby to handle at a time I think I'd have gone batty.


----------



## Trenton

FirstYearDown said:


> People need to mind their own goddamn business.
> 
> My MIL is the overbearing type. She loves to tell my SIL how to raise her daughter, who happens to be my avatar.
> 
> MIL even has the nerve to tell everyone, that my SIL should be pregnant again because my niece is almost two.  Bloody hell, can my MIL be any more ridiculous and nosy?? Only my SIL can decide how many babies she has and when!


MIL's are evil by default. If you get a good one you're luckier than if you won the lottery. My MIL showed up 4 hours late for our wedding and her reasoning..."Darling, there was traffic." She only lives an hour away. Luckily she's not really in our lives and doesn't want to be. My Mother is not much better though. Her criticisms of me are larger than the ocean. My friends are always telling me I should cut her completely out of my life. I know they're right but for some reason I can't seem to do it.

I think that's what I'm trying to tell you. Don't make excuses for your choices for people who don't deserve them. You have no reason to be defensive or feel you need to justify your choices at all. You are making the right choice for you and the man that matters in your life is with you on it. That should be applauded, not criticized. It certainly does not make you less of a woman in any way.


----------



## FirstYearDown

It is very hard to cut off our mothers, even when they are unkind. Maybe you also want your children to have their grandmother?

I have done it and it helped me to take a break. It also helped my mother appreciate me a lot more.

My MIL is much meaner to her other DIL than she is to me. This is likely because my MIL never got over the woman that her son was with, before he married my SIL. I also detect a lot of jealousy that her son rightfully considers his wife first. 

I hate to hear my MIL rip my SIL to shreds because I love my SIL. My MIL can be very nice, but then her other cantankerous and mean side comes without warning. Good thing we live 15 hours drive away!

Thanks for the kind words, Trenton.


----------



## that_girl

My children are 9 years apart....and sometimes I don't think that was far enough apart LOL


----------



## Trenton

FirstYearDown said:


> It is very hard to cut off our mothers, even when they are unkind. Maybe you also want your children to have their grandmother?
> 
> I have done it and it helped me to take a break. It also helped my mother appreciate me a lot more.
> 
> My MIL is much meaner to her other DIL than she is to me. This is likely because my MIL never got over the woman that her son was with, before he married my SIL. I also detect a lot of jealousy that her son rightfully considers his wife first.
> 
> I hate to hear my MIL rip my SIL to shreds because I love my SIL. My MIL can be very nice, but then her other cantankerous and mean side comes without warning. Good thing we live 15 hours drive away!
> 
> Thanks for the kind words, Trenton.


There's a whole weird thing going on in my family between my mother, father, grandkids and myself. It's a torturous circle that I'm never sure I'm making the right choice on and very hard for me to take a stand on. You won't see me write about it very often because I know darn well it's a weakness and a place where I am unsure and unsteady. I guess we all have those places. Sigh.

I get the MIL, SIL dynamic though. It's always a slippery slope. Your niece is absolutely adorable. I love red heads. She's going to be a stunner when she grows up.

I think gabbing like this about our lives also is part of what makes us women. I think women love to share.


----------



## that_girl

I had no trouble cutting my mother out of my life.

lol.


----------



## Trenton

that_girl said:


> My children are 9 years apart....and sometimes I don't think that was far enough apart LOL


Mine are 6, 11 and 15. So the oldest and youngest are 9 years apart. A bonus for you is a built in babysitter when your little one gets a bit older!


----------



## Trenton

that_girl said:


> I had no trouble cutting my mother out of my life.
> 
> lol.


I should follow your lead but I doubt it will happen in my lifetime.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

FirstYearDown said:


> MIL even has the nerve to tell everyone, that my SIL should be pregnant again because my niece is almost two.  Bloody hell, can my MIL be any more ridiculous and nosy?? Only my SIL can decide how many babies she has and when!


Frankly, I would take this over what my wonderful MIL & SIL has subtly said to me. Yes, they are GOOD people -they also are not cantankerous & into all of your business, but their subtle comments could still cut like a knife. 

For instance, my best friend threw a baby shower for me when I had my little girl, after all of those boys... I could use some PINK & frilly dresses .......& my dear friend was just JOKING of coarse but made some comment about ME having another one ......and my MIL says ..."Oh that would be tooo hard on the family" .... my heart just SANK, the intent of that comment HURT.  She will never know that because she uttered that, I was near on the VERGE of tears opening up every single cute little dress while holding them up to show, trying to smile & say thank you, while feeing my MIL say our chidlren as a "burden".  

All I can figure is........what she meant by that was ....... it costs too much $$ for holiday presents ...that is all she could possibly mean because WE never EVER ask her for anything, never to babysit, never a dime ....Me & her son are completely self sufficient in every way, always have been. 

This dear friend who threw my Shower has always near begged to watch our kids, how she is a blessing. 

....and the one SIL (who never had children), for years would make snide remarks about not buying for our kids, or we had any more, that would be it, she is done, .. and each & every time I would tell them PLEASE DO NOT BUY for them, I was dead serious, but she never listened anyway. So what was I supposed to do, tell her I was not accepting the presents.... it was very awkward. But I felt this for a long time. 

After that comment at my Baby Shower- bringing me to a LOW that clouded 'MY' day to enjoy -YES, I am sensitive as any other woman....that was the freaking final straw-for me. 

I was NOT going to put up with this condesenging BS about *the size of my family *any freaking more. We never asked a dime from one of them nor did we expect anything-that is on THEM. Half the time I did not even invite that SIL to the huge Birthday Parties I had to spare her a present. We did not need their gifts. I also cook & hostess at OUR house every HOLIDAY ...to spare all of these family members from too many kids at their house. It is all on ME & my husband, I do 95% of the cooking. I am *not *into being anyone's burden, nor will my kids be. 

So I constructed a letter --- NOT to offend, but to THANK THEM for all of their care & gifts throughout the years ...saying now that our family has grown to THIS size, I realized the hardship this could be on them, and I asked them to no longer buy presents for our kids...stating they are well taken care off , we are not lacking for anything, we are blessed. It really was VERY LOVING- I wish I would have saved a copy, but I didn't.

I pointed out that -just having Family *IS *what it is all about... *THEIR PRESENCE, NOT their presents *.... I also said, I can not control what they do and if they insist on still buying, to make it SMALL... dallor store stuff, bubbles, chocolate, etc

I sent them all out , and guess what, NEVER AGAIN since that day (8 yrs ago now) did I ever hear a subtle comment about *the size *of our family again.... and they still ask me what the H my kids want for Christmas!! And I continue to remind them I would rather them not do this. 

Just saying, it can go both ways. I would MUCH rather have relatives overjoyed -with the wanting of another baby , even if that seems intrusive..... this was worse, feeling your children is not wanted and a burden, and fearing what they will say with the anouncement of another. This is more hurtful, in my opinion.


----------



## FirstYearDown

SA, some people only want small families and the controlling actions/comments can be just as hurtful as what you have experienced. Sometimes my MIL says that my BIL and his wife should not have any more kids, because they can't handle it.:rofl: She is truly a confused woman. 

Some women are not meant to have big families; my mother had four children and she was the very stressed and unhappy. SA, your children are very lucky that they were wanted. All we did was hold my mother back from what she really wanted to do. I am certain that her attitude greatly influenced the way I look at motherhood; we bore the brunt of her resentment.

It's a shame that women are so critical of each other.

If parents can talk about their children on TAM, I am just as entitled to post about childfreedom and the reactions I receive. One topic is not more valid than the other, just because one choice is the less popular choice.


----------



## that_girl

Trenton said:


> Mine are 6, 11 and 15. So the oldest and youngest are 9 years apart. A bonus for you is a built in babysitter when your little one gets a bit older!


She already babysits  She's 12. Perfect age. But we pay her 5 bucks. LOL The baby is 3 and already in bed when we go out (about 2miles away). The time out has helped our marriage SO MUCH.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

FirstYearDown said:


> SA, your children are very lucky that they were wanted. All we did was hold my mother back from what she really wanted to do. I am certain that her attitude greatly influenced the way I look at motherhood; we bore the brunt of her resentment.


 This makes sense. Our childhood experiences have a way of influencing us. What you lived growing up would be very very hard to be on the receiving end of , I was on a much smaller scale, but I was appreciated other places so it didn't damage me too much. I had another escape, to to speak. 

My mother didn't want to be a Mother either, she wanted a career , she didn't even want to get married but did it anyway, she was young & naive. Her heart was never in "the home". Though I Do have very fond memories of her making cookies with me, going sledding, buiding snowmen, even pcitures , throwing big B day parties, I knew I was loved. But still, she LEFT me when I was 9 -to be raised by a step mom who didn't even want her own kids, wasn't I lucky! 

To this day, her children do not speak to her, but I do! We get along fabulously now. But back then, she wanted my dad to herself. She knows I was a damn good kid though -and she does thank me for that, even tells me I had it the hardest, but that made me kind of strong too. I had other outlets - I LOVED the atomosphere at my friends houses with their large families, I wanted that for myself someday -plus the influence of my Grandmother, I listened to her stories of family, and admired the life she created. I used to watch the "Waltons" growing up & think how grand that life would be. 



> It's a shame that women are so critical of each other.


 There are some things I am very critical of in women, but being childless by choice is sure not one of them!! 

On the other hand, If you marry a good faithful loving man who gives you the emotional support & love some women would die for -then coldly turn your back on his sexual needs, I can be very critical, or if you are blessed enough to be able to be a SAHM & think nothing of cleaning the house & cooking for him while he works all day to support his family, again, the critical claws want to come out. I literally have to reign in what I am really thinking to be honest. Or they will want to slam me in defense. I think we are capable of being a JUMPER in some aspect or another depending on what we feel is right or wrong and how another is being mistreated. 

But I know me & you are in agreement on the "taking care of our men" part if nothing else FirstyearDown!! 



> If parents can talk about their children on TAM, I am just as entitled to post about childfreedom and the reactions I receive. One topic is not more valid than the other, just because one choice is the less popular choice.


 I totally am in agreement with you , absolutely!! I ENJOY the various topics on here and also hearing the varied experiences from all different perspectives .... more of us should learn of the Opposing sides - to walk in another shoes , or imagine doing so, THIS IS very helpful for relating to others- as we go through life.


----------



## Trenton

FirstYearDown said:


> It's a shame that women are so critical of each other.
> 
> If parents can talk about their children on TAM, I am just as entitled to post about childfreedom and the reactions I receive. One topic is not more valid than the other, just because one choice is the less popular choice.


I agree as well but there is a difference about talking about how you've made a decision not to have children and feel that is the right decision for you and saying that from what you've heard from other parents being a parent is over rated (or fill in other negative) because the later is akin to what you don't like others doing to you.


----------



## FirstYearDown

No, it is not Trenton. I am only echoing what parents have said to me-I am not making my own assumptions. 

How can my negative views be offensive if they came straight from the people who would actually know-_those with children???_:scratchhead:

SA, you know how I feel about spouses who love to refuse sex or lazy SAHM's. (I am not saying that all SAHM's are lazy either.)


----------



## PM1

I have to say this has been a thought provoking thread. :scratchhead: I have actually asked myself about what defines man/woman on a more biological/physical level lately. Gender definition has blurred a bit, not just sexual preference, but physical gender. The "a woman has a vagina" statement seems so straight-forward at first glance, but after some shows I've seen on cable, it is not as clear to me as it once was. There apparently are some former men out there who now have quite passable "vaginas" (at least in appearance and most functions). So I thought about it in terms of defining female as "capable of reproduction, carrying a baby." However I know multiple women who cannot have children so this does not quite hold up either. I've sort of settled on the female definition based on having the equipment to perform the female side of reproduction (from conception to birth) regardless of whether successful reproduction has occurred. Still a bit blurry. 

I think the original question seemed to be more about the philosophical aspects of being "woman." Interestingly reading through, many of the definitions could have applied to men as well, although with a slightly sensitive leaning. Its made me wonder why the need for the label. I think a lot of this stems from the human need to identify with others, which seems to require identifying onself somehow. It makes me wonder if the better path is to avoid labels if at all possible. Focus on "I am ME". 

Now, I've never run across anyone willing to state something along the lines of "...my newborn niece didn't feel safe in my arms, because she sensed that I don't have children." If I had, I'd probably be looking to clarify things too. The other day a coworker told me about an interaction where some stranger yelled at him. I'm constantly amazed by how willing some people are to act so inappropriately toward others. They seem to overlook that the same societal boundaries that should prevent them from being total jerks are also the boundaries that prevent the recipient from dumping their drink over their stupid head (or worse). I guess we have to take pride in rising above.

This may be overly simplistic, but anyone who can say that, their opinion is not worth consideration.

As a man, I find woman to be a nearly indefinable concept, but I know I like for its very elusiveness. It is a concept worth exploring. 

Thanks for bringing up such a cool topic.:smthumbup:


----------



## SimplyAmorous

PM1 said:


> They seem to overlook that the same societal boundaries that should prevent them from being total jerks are also the boundaries that prevent the recipient from dumping their drink over their stupid head (or worse). I guess we have to take pride in rising above.
> 
> This may be overly simplistic, but anyone who can say that, their opinion is not worth consideration.


I LOVE YOUR WORDS HERE...about the Rising above ....Much wisdom in that :smthumbup: This is pretty much what I teach my kids and remind my friends when they get hurt carelessly by others ...that oftentimes, IF they did nothing to egg the words on.....it speaks MORE about the dumper's boundaryless character than the innocent person they are dumping on. 

This is so obvious, it is near funny. 

This is one of the main reasons I do not get all that offended by nasty people I don't know, I mean, I have no idea what type of turmoil or life they have led (or how spoiled they have been -could go both ways) ....and to where they are mentally in their walk to more wisdom. We just CAN'T take it all personal. Alot of people are messed up.

Rise above it, show them a better way.


----------



## Trenton

FirstYearDown said:


> No, it is not Trenton. I am only echoing what parents have said to me-I am not making my own assumptions.
> 
> How can my negative views be offensive if they came straight from the people who would actually know-_those with children???_:scratchhead:
> 
> SA, you know how I feel about spouses who love to refuse sex or lazy SAHM's. (I am not saying that all SAHM's are lazy either.)


I'm saying if on the boards you say something along the lines of (and I'm not saying you have), "It's over rated to have children. From what I've seen children ruin relationships and lead to sexless marriages. I never want to be like those who have children"

That's akin to a parent saying, "From what I've seen childfreedom is an anti-child campaign paraded by those who are selfish and unable to provide the unconditional love required to raise a child. I'd never want to be like them."

^^Both are opinions based upon observation but both are also directly offensive to the other group. They may very well be true for a percentage of those without children and those with children but they're such gross and negative generalization that they'll do nothing but offend the other group.


----------



## FirstYearDown

It is one thing to draw a conclusion based on seeing something; quite another to receive candid information from those who would actually know what they are talking about. 

If so many parents speak of the downsides of having children, doesn't it make sense for me to believe them? :scratchhead: I hope you don't think I am just being difficult. I'm sure you understand why I think it is logical to listen to what _parents_ say about....parenthood.

Becoming a parent is a life altering choice. Just like any huge decision, it has positives and negatives. 

We are all the sum total of our experiences, which mold our views. Perhaps I would feel less cynical about becoming a mother, if I did not constantly hear about how awful it was from my own mom. Maybe I would not doubt my patience with babies, if a screaming infant did not leave me shaking and weeping. (I was a nanny when I was younger. The little girl wailed for HOURS and I could hear her crying in my dreams. Good times!)


----------



## Trenton

FirstYearDown said:


> It is one thing to draw a conclusion based on seeing something; quite another to receive candid information from those who would actually know what they are talking about.
> 
> If so many parents speak of the downsides of having children, doesn't it make sense for me to believe them? :scratchhead: I hope you don't think I am just being difficult. I'm sure you understand why I think it is logical to listen to what _parents_ say about....parenthood.
> 
> Becoming a parent is a life altering choice. Just like any huge decision, it has positives and negatives.
> 
> We are all the sum total of our experiences, which mold our views. Perhaps I would feel less cynical about becoming a mother, if I did not constantly hear about how awful it was from my own mom. Maybe I would not doubt my patience with babies, if a screaming infant did not leave me shaking and weeping. (I was a nanny when I was younger. The little girl wailed for HOURS and I could hear her crying in my dreams. Good times!)


I know where you're coming from and it does make sense. Becoming a parent is really hard to explain because it creates such HUGE up's and down's for each parent. One day I could vent and the next I could rave. It is definitely consuming.

My Mom doesn't like me and I was afraid I wouldn't like my own kids. I can tell you that quite the opposite happened but definitely can't tell you that it would be the same for you. Before kids, I really disliked other people's kids. Actually, I found them annoying-haha. After my own, I started to appreciate people differently. I guess we really all are different and you're right, we should feel comfortable enough to speak about it openly without fear of being chastised.


----------



## FirstYearDown

:smthumbup: Glad we understand each other.


----------



## Nikki1023

You DONT have to be a MOTHER to be a WOMAN..but you have to be a WOMAN to be a MOTHER  .

And when I say WOMAN I mean a strong minded individual who does not allow others to manipulate her..and someone who can take care of them self, and does not need others to do every thing for her. 

People are nosy, and try to push their lifestyle on others. I have two kids, I became a mother young..my husband travels..and my kids are the same sex..and are only 2 years apart. Its alot of work, but I hold down the fort. Do you know what I hear? When are you having a third. Its pure insanity..I think its ridiculous..and tell them to mind their own business..you should do the same


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Nikki1023 said:


> Do you know what I hear? When are you having a third. Its pure insanity..I think its ridiculous..and tell them to mind their own business..you should do the same


Ok, please explain this to me, I really don't "get it". Why does such a question *insult *you so fiercely - it appears overkill to me. If someone asked me if was going to have #7 I would not be in the least bit insulted, or felt my dear privacy was invaded. 

When I hear women talk the way some have on this thread with such irritation in their words with mere innocent questions being hailed as 'It is none of your damn business" responses...or wanting to say such ...you know what I think to myself.... women are impossible!! I guess the lesson here is.... keep it directed to the "weather" or give me some duct tape on my mouth, please...because women are very very very very easily offended. How in the world are we to judge who is going to REACT like that to a mere question. This is WHY people are not friendly anymore , it is not worth the effort to be. 

It is almost scary to me. I am not ignorant of human behavior, I don't go around and insult women, but I have ASKED these types of questions innocently enough, I have never had a responder dump on me like that - thank GOD ! 

But I have learned something here... for the rest of my life , I will now PAUSE, REALIZE no matter what response I may get from a woman, she may secretly be thinking ...I am rude, insulting & invading her privacy. Damn, I never knew I was such an ogre. 

I find this disheartening, truly I do.


----------



## Darkhorse

I used to get bothered when people would say, "Oh, you have only girls? Time to try for a boy!" as if my girls weren't good enough or boys are more valuable. Now, I just say my girls are enough and we're complete.

Sorry, I didn't want boys. So neener neener


----------



## FirstYearDown

The implication that she needs to have a third child is the issue, SA. You did not like people commenting on the size of your family, right? 

Nobody is trying to be unfriendly...it's just that we all have different boundaries.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

FirstYearDown said:


> The implication that she needs to have a third child is the issue, SA. You did not like people commenting on the size of your family, right?
> 
> Nobody is trying to be unfriendly...it's just that we all have different boundaries.


 I think it has alot to do with the act of "friendliness" .

Now my original reply was about Nikkis comment.... asking if she was going to have another. Not these "When are you going to have another?" ... I suppose there is a difference between "Are you " vs. "When are you" if we really want to dissect. 

I do not believe I have ever said "When" to someone - because that is too forward & yes, assuming.  But I also wouldn't crucify someone for saying that. I guess this is where we differ . 

If the comment was just asking "*Are you going to have kids someday*?" or "*Are you planning another*?" .... I would HOPE these simple questions are not looked upon as an IMPLICATION thrusting anothers beliefs upon you.. 


This is what *my intentions *would be ......... I see a simple QUESTION in the flow of a conversation, a relatable curious question, someone has kids, we ask about kids - this is quite typical. Even at a Baby Shower, it seems reasonable to me to ask about BABIES, If we go to a coin show, we talk about coins, If someone owns a boat, we ask Boat questions, you get the drift. Absolutely NOTHING MORE is meant by it whatsoever, there is no implication - at least not from ME and I surely do not feel every woman who asks these questions has such an intent. 


I do not feel such a question is NOSY, insane, ridiculous, invading of anothers privacy, it was purely an attempt to "get to know someone a little better" *This **is a part of showing yourself friendly *.....don't you hate when you meet people and all they do is talk about themselves ? Wouldn't you much rather have someone take a breath & ask you a personal question , even if it is not your favorite subject, it shows they are interested in YOU!"  


And in no way would I compare a "do you think you will have another?" (which is NOT negative at all at that point) to a comment such as ....."It would be too hard on the family?" from my MIL. (that was an assesment that somehow my kids are a burden)... I do not see these even comparable. 

And sometimes people who have all one sex DO want the other sex, I was one of them! Does this make me a bad person, that I don't love my sons somehow by such thinking or asking another ?? Even Doctors crack those kinds of comments, do we feel he is nosy too? Sometimes we can be insulted a little TOO EASY. I would understand others may feel that way , given I do , again, this comes to relating , or an attempt to relate. None of us are perfect, we speak out of who we are, I love my sons no less than my daughter & nor would such a question even insinuate that a parent would love one sex less! 

I am very thankful others give me GRACE when I open my mouth, and I try to do the same when others speak their questions to me. Questions hardly seem a threat -when you think about it....

..........It completely gives YOU the floor ....so kindly tell your askers that you adore your 2 girls, you have no desire for a son, this should even be enjoyable, as it gives an opportunity to state how much you love your girls & they fullfill your life & you'll have sons someday when they marry! Wouldn't this be a excellent way to handle it without making the person asking feel like they should crawl under a rock & die ? 

Here is where I CAN AGREE boundaries have been crossed....IF after you answer the "question", annoyed as you may be, letting them know you do NOT desire children, or your quiver is full, or laugh it off saying "are you crazy, 2 is enough! " -while not throwing a defensive "it's none of your business" at them ...

Then ...IF they stomp on your answer & try to CONVINCE YOU you are making a mistake, they know what is best for you & your husband, telling you -you will reget this when you are older...now you are thrust into the position to RESTATE what you already said !.....THIS is where I see a crossing of boundaries , NOT in the previous question. That is simply too harsh. 

Let me give you an example that happened to me personally.... This was not about having kids, but how kids are delivered....

A lady from my church, she is a Doula, she feels every woman SHOULD be able to have a natural birth, or she is missing Gods Calling, also you must breastfeed -none of you would want to meet this woman, trust me!.... ....anyway, ran into her one fateful day in the Walmart Parking lot...she asked me how many kids I had , I mentioned how I delivered them all by C-sections , and she started to tell me that had SHE been my doula, I could have had ALL of them natural, yes, she sounded VERY confident, and well, I didn't exactly agree with her, my doc said my bone structure was small , and he forseen trouble before I ever delivered my 1st. I let her know I loved MY C-sections, I am thankful all of my kids are healthy, happy & I do not regret my deliveries, every one a precious memory & I wouldn't change a thing. 

But she stood there in that parking lot arguing with me how she knows better than my Doctor, in fact putting Doctors down..and How I could have delivered natural then goes on to tell me everything wrong with C-sections. Honestly, I don't mind people too much, I was not all that bend out of shape about this, but I clearly felt after I explained MY Happiness with MY secions, she was trying to PRESS her beliefs onto me. IT WAS TOO MUCH. She should have been gracious in allowing me "MY experience" though different from hers, after I expressed my enjoyment of My births, the kids are here, healthy happy, it's all good . That bordered on RUDE, boundary pressing. Although I never really held it against her, we became closer friends even!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

wifeofhusband said:


> That doula sounds over the top. Everyone I know who advocates natural birth knows c-sections have their place.
> 
> That 'third child thing' - I got 'why on earth did you want a third child?' when I was pregnant with my third from someone who just couldn't comprehend why a woman would choose to have more than two these days. You've just got to do your own thing and let the naysayers comments fly right over your head.


AMEN. Do thine own thing. :smthumbup:

Yes, this Doula was over the top, in fact another lady in our church confided in me that this same woman made her feel like crap about her own birth to the point of tears, like she was "less than a Mother" for needing a section, Like God failed her because she prepared & prayed for a natural birth. In her case, her daughter almost died. So yes, this Doula DOES get carried away in her passion for her purpose -delivering babies like the 1800's I guess. But she still has her good points, she was our Mops leader, she was a blessing too. She also is against IUD's and I argued with her on that one day, whatever, I still like the woman. If she can put up with me, I can put up with her. 

I've had countless people think Me & mine have lost our minds in wanting a big family - they mention the cost, the headache, the loss of freedom, saying "wait till they are teens!", being leeches when they are older. I am not at all offended by such naysayers. I look at it this way.....they could easily be saying to me...."I would never want another child, it drained my bank account, we gave up too many vacations, my son was on drugs at 15, my daughter got knocked up & we're raising her child" .... so for them, they are speaking out of their BAD experiences. This does not bother me, I expect people to do this to some extent. I can not leash everyone's mouth ya know. 

I enjoy the opportunity to let them know why It is "fullfilling" for me. It is no bother. It is simply conversation to me, nothing more. 

I can be hurt like any other woman, I am sensitive too...but sometimes we have to learn in life... how we REACT to these comments shows how confident we are in our standing -with a peaceful resolve - to desire children or choose a childfree life, nothing is wrong with either option. Just as a natural birth vs C-section due to a small pelvis or complications to the child. Had I lived 100 yrs ago, I might have been one of those moms who DIED in childbirth so I am overwhelmingly thankful I live today.


----------



## FirstYearDown

Women need to get their minds out of other women's wombs.

Nothing wrong with talking about babies at a baby shower. I think we all know what my original issue was.

If some of you feel that my hurt feelings meant that I am not comfortable with my choice, there is nothing I can do about that. My _own _understanding of my reactions are the most important. 

SA, since you enjoy your large brood, ROCK ON WITH YOUR BAD SELF!! :smthumbup::smthumbup:I am jealous of your children, because they have such a well adjusted and happy mother.


----------



## amanda1959

I knew I wanted children at a very young age and I was blessed with a boy and a girl who are now very beautiful productive adults. My best friend who has been married the same number of years as I decided very early on in her marriage (along with her husband) that they would not have children. We are best friends and we have made our own decisions and will remain best friends forever. There is no judgement rather acceptance and respect for eachothers decisions in life. There is way too much judgement when others expect a couple to have children. Who has the right to judge and impose on a couple?...nobody...live and let live.


----------



## FirstYearDown

I am a parent of sorts....a _pet _parent.:rofl:

Sheba is our baby. My husband and I call each other "Mommy and Daddy." Yeah, we're a little bit psycho. 

Seriously, we enjoy our kitten immensely. She eats the best food and receives optimal care. We had a runt kitten who died very young; she was half the size she should have been because of a congenital heart disorder. Sheba is strong, healthy and very smart. 

I don't do any other crazy cat lady things, like buy clothing and wigs for her or have a facebook page for our kitten.  I feel very sad when I see people do nonsense like buy friggin' fake hair for their animals. 

I once saw a *diamond collar *for a cat.:wtf:

Today I had to be very hard on Shebs because she wouldn't stay away from the Christmas tree. I tried shouting, but it didn't work this time. So after I put Sheba in her carrier and flicked water drops at her, the kitten finally stopped being stubborn. :rofl:


----------



## SimplyAmorous

FirstYearDown said:


> SA, since you enjoy your large brood, ROCK ON WITH YOUR BAD SELF!! :smthumbup::smthumbup:I am jealous of your children, because they have such a well adjusted and happy mother.


And you know what is so funny about this comment, thank you by the way, I can be very very BAD ......is I would likely be a Wailing bit** if I didn't have my kids. It is like I KNEW what my destiny was ...even back then...but I was so Darn impatient, and very frustrated because it wasn't happening - fast enough -for me. God had other plans. 

I am happy, but I still struggle with patience at times !! We all have our issues in life.


----------



## ryansdad

Estrogen, having a vagina along with the ability to carry and give birth to children would be the simple answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## FirstYearDown

Some women cannot carry a baby to full term, my best friend being one of them.


----------



## ryansdad

Sorry, let me expand that a bit. Not having the ability to successfully conceive and give birth to children. Just the general anatomy to do so. I didn't mean to imply that any woman must choose to become pregnant and deliver a child to be a woman. More accurately, the simple answer imo in what actually makes a woman would be the estrogen and her anatomy.


----------



## southern wife

that_girl said:


> It's about having a vagina.  lolll


:lol: :rofl: :iagree: And bewbies!


----------



## FirstYearDown

:lol::lol: What kind of bees make milk?

Boo-bees!! 

We need to grow up. LOL


----------



## Darkhorse

southern wife said:


> :lol: :rofl: :iagree: And bewbies!


I dunno. I know some guys with boobs. :/


----------



## annagarret

I think what makes us women starts in our heart. A woman could be the Sexiest thing alive and not very warm or giving. They way we give to the ones we love, have a sweetness in our voice and twinkle in our eye. I guess the feminine gestures and attributes. Of course having beautiful hips, breasts, faces and hair make us lovely to look at and touch. I love being a woman it never gets old or frustrating. Most importantly I hope women don't lose their sweet and tender hearts as they get older and experience heartache or loss. That's what men need from us


----------



## FirstYearDown

annagarret said:


> I think what makes us women starts in our heart. A woman could be the Sexiest thing alive and not very warm or giving. They way we give to the ones we love, have a sweetness in our voice and twinkle in our eye. I guess the feminine gestures and attributes. Of course having beautiful hips, breasts, faces and hair make us lovely to look at and touch. I love being a woman it never gets old or frustrating. *Most importantly I hope women don't lose their sweet and tender hearts as they get older and experience heartache or loss. *That's what men need from us


:iagree::iagree:

Before I met my husband, my low self esteem led me to choose men that were awful. All of the mistreatment and lies resulted in me becoming very hard and cynical. After a while, I hated men and I wanted to get even with all of them for using me. 

I will always be grateful to my husband for patiently treating me very well, until I let my guard down and learned to trust. Now I feel safe enough to be soft and sweet again. :smthumbup:


----------



## SimplyAmorous

FirstYearDown said:


> Before I met my husband, my low self esteem led me to choose men that were awful. All of the mistreatment and lies resulted in me becoming very hard and cynical. After a while, I hated men and I wanted to get even with all of them for using me.
> 
> I will always be grateful to my husband for patiently treating me very well, until I let my guard down and learned to trust. Now I feel safe enough to be soft and sweet again. :smthumbup:


I LOVE this, it takes a very very special person to love us & help carry us to a new place, a different place from whatever our past has done to us. Some people manage to do this on thier own.... but I am always in awe of the stories where one is broken & another came in & loved enough, seen that whole person, more than we could see ourselves , giving us a fresh chance to trust again and find ourselves. 

I think when you have someone beside you to share it all with, it makes the burden extra light, and so much more satisfying -for sure.  No wonder you want to devote every living moment to your wonderful husband.


----------



## Nikki1023

SimplyAmorous said:


> Ok, please explain this to me, I really don't "get it". Why does such a question *insult *you so fiercely - it appears overkill to me. If someone asked me if was going to have #7 I would not be in the least bit insulted, or felt my dear privacy was invaded.
> 
> When I hear women talk the way some have on this thread with such irritation in their words with mere innocent questions being hailed as 'It is none of your damn business" responses...or wanting to say such ...you know what I think to myself.... women are impossible!! I guess the lesson here is.... keep it directed to the "weather" or give me some duct tape on my mouth, please...because women are very very very very easily offended. How in the world are we to judge who is going to REACT like that to a mere question. This is WHY people are not friendly anymore , it is not worth the effort to be.
> 
> It is almost scary to me. I am not ignorant of human behavior, I don't go around and insult women, but I have ASKED these types of questions innocently enough, I have never had a responder dump on me like that - thank GOD !
> 
> But I have learned something here... for the rest of my life , I will now PAUSE, REALIZE no matter what response I may get from a woman, she may secretly be thinking ...I am rude, insulting & invading her privacy. Damn, I never knew I was such an ogre.
> 
> I find this disheartening, truly I do.


You have a SERIOUS chip on your shoulder. Maybe you get personally attacked on this site alot for having diarrhea of the mouth? Who knows. 

By me saying I have 2 kids of the same sex..and my husband travels..I thought i PAINTED a decent enough picture as to why people asking me if im "Trying for that BOY" would INSULT me. Hmm, I have 2 beautiful daughters and would be just as happy with a 3rd girl...when the time is right. I also know MANY people who have fertility issues, and arent up to discuss it with those "NOSY" bystanders who question every aspect of anyones life. Its about manners. Grow thicker skin lady.


----------



## okeydokie

^^^^^this is what makes you women^^^^^^


----------



## ryansdad

okeydokie said:


> ^^^^^this is what makes you women^^^^^^


:rofl:
Not taking anyones sides here, but my wife says stuff like that all the time about the women she works with. She tells me all the time that you just don't really get it babe. You guys may get in an argument, maybe wrestle or throw some blows, then all is forgiven and forgotten. She says us women can really be mean biatches to each other and generally don't forget./


----------



## FirstYearDown

I hate working with women. I find them petty, catty and vindictive.

For example, I had a strict Muslim woman complain that I didn't look like I was wearing a bra. I responded to that complaint with the fact that this fool couldn't have been doing much work if she was staring at my chest. FWIW, I _was _wearing a bra.

At one place I worked, the owner of the company came to my desk and congratulated my productivity. Within five minutes, some dumbass female emailed my supervisor with sudden "issues during training." 

This is why I am going back to school, so that I can obtain a career in a field with ironclad HR and unions.


----------

