# My Wife's Moral Issues with Sex



## Colell (Jun 27, 2011)

Hello all,

In short, my wife and I have been married for almost a year now and we are hardly ever intimate (once every 1-2 months) because she says she still has moral issues with sex. How can I help her get past that and see that she is not only doing nothing wrong, but that sex within marriage is a very, very good thing. I on the other hand have a very high sex drive and I'm on the edge physically, mentally, and emotionally because of this.

Now, for those who want the long version of all of this, I'll start with the background.

My wife and I met in high school and began dating our junior year. While deciding on colleges, we both agreed that we should search for out own interests and if it works out, great. If not, oh well. It turned out that she decided on a small private school which was very conservative, whereas I chose a small private school which was not. Now the school's were only an hour drive from each other, so we decided to keep up the relationship as long as we could. It turned out that we survived all four years and were married the summer after we graduated. Everything was wonderful. Both my wife and I had saved ourselves for each other. We didn't quite make it to the wedding night, but we made it to within a couple months. Everything sexually was wonderful right up until the day we said "I do." We didn't see each other that often (I was taking summer courses in preparation for graduate school and she was coordinating the wedding stuff while trying to find a job.), but when we did see each other, we had no problems. As soon as we were married, though, everything seemed to change. Since then, I've been rejected on a daily basis. 
Last night, she told me (10 months into the marriage) that she still feels that sex is wrong. Looking back on it now, I'm not sure if I'd rather know that she thinks it's morally wrong or think all of the other reasons that ran through my head in the past ten months. For almost a year now, I've been dealing with rejection after rejection from the woman that tells me she loves me. I feel almost no connection to my wife. I've been losing sleep from loneliness and wondering what was wrong with me. I don't get stressed out very easily, but I'm about to lose it. I basically have to wait until her guilt from not having sex with me overwhelms her feeling of immorality, which can take up to two months. Then I get treated with pity sex where I know she doesn't want to do it, which irritates me even more. Every once in a while, she'll come home and we'll be amazingly intimate, she'll really be into it and I really feel a reconnection with her (this has happened maybe three times total). At that point I feel like we're making progress, until I find out that it came from a church sermon, article, or discussion that really inspired her to open up, which means that it won't ever happen again.
My wife says she has talked to pastors, friends, and other women about this and so far none of them have been any help. We've tried talking about it, but I don't know what to tell her. I don't consider myself a very religious person and I've found that these really conservative universities tend to breed emotional immaturity. I can't bring up anything without her completely shutting down, and I've never yelled at her or been stern at all. Does anyone out there know what I can do to help her get past this? I've been patient so far, but I feel like I'm about to lose it. 
I'm to the point where now I'm looking at other women and thinking "I bet they don't have a problem being intimate with their husband/boyfriend/whatever." Then that turns into negative feelings towards her. I find myself getting internally furious towards her for non-sex things that aren't even wrong. I wonder sometimes if I've made a terrible mistake trying to keep that relationship going while we were in college. I don't like feeling like this. This is still the woman I love, but the whole situation is tearing us apart. Please, if you have any advice at all, let me know. I really appreciate it.

Thanks


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

This sounds very familiar to me. Sex was great and often before marriage. Even continuing on for a couple of years after marriage. 

Recently it has gotten better (once a week or so) but we have had times where we have gone a couple of months. When it happens, it often feels like pity sex. We have had many fights during our over 20 year marriage about this issue.

My advice, don't have kids while this issue is in place. Don't fall for a couple of months of lots of sex to get you to agree to have kids. 

Also, read about Manning Up on here. I believe I have been too much 'the nice guy', which has weakened my position in the marriage and has caused her to lose attraction to me.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi Colell ~

Welcome aboard!

When your wife says that it's morally wrong, is it because of her religious upbringing?

Do you think she is feeling guilty about the intimacy that you shared prior to getting married? Some people may believe that it is morally wrong to engage in pre-marital sex based upon their religious beliefs and familial upbringing. But, mostly sex within a marriage is considered to be a good and natural state. However, maybe she now feels guilty about what you did prior to marriage?


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## Colell (Jun 27, 2011)

Her mother is religious, but her father and three brothers are far from it. She's the youngest of four and I really surprises me sometimes that she turned out the way she did with the way her family is.

I honestly think it has something to do with the university that she attended. It was very conservative. They would have to go to biweekly chapels where someone would beat right-and-wrong into their heads. I think the place brainwashed her to an extent. Students are kicked out if they've had sex and it's as if it's bad to even talk about it there. Like I said, they breed immaturity there. 

And like I said earlier, we did have premarital sex, but it was about two months before we got married and it was by her choosing. I was really patient and understanding with her. I told her that if she didn't want to, then we wouldn't because it was her decision. I've tried to continue to be patient and understanding with her through this, but I don't understand and my patience is wearing thin. I've tried telling her that sex is encouraged once you're married, but all I get from her is an "I know, I know." Then she clams up and nothing changes.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Colell said:


> I honestly think it has something to do with the university that she attended. It was very conservative. They would have to go to biweekly chapels where someone would beat right-and-wrong into their heads. I think the place brainwashed her to an extent. Students are kicked out if they've had sex and it's as if it's bad to even talk about it there. Like I said, they breed immaturity there.


I think you're trying to scapegoat the university for your wife's failings. I'm a conservative Christian and I have literally never heard a minister preach that sex between married people is wrong.

Was the university a Catholic school? Catholics do preach that sex should be procreative. Perhaps that's the issue?

If not, then your wife has twisted the Christian tenet that premarital sex is wrong into the belief that postmarital sex is wrong. And she won't be able to find anyone to reenforce that belief.



Colell said:


> I've tried telling her that sex is encouraged once you're married, but all I get from her is an "I know, I know." Then she clams up and nothing changes.


I suggest a Christian sex counselor for your wife. Also, look at the man up threads and Athol's blog Married Man Sex Life .


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## fhg1893 (Jun 25, 2011)

Colell,

It sounds like you don't actually understand what her objection is. Assuming that you can take her at her word, that she believes that sex is wrong, I get the sense that you don't understand why, and maybe she doesn't either. What I suspect you must do is listen to her moral objections very carefully. You need to know what the underlying assumptions are in this situation. Every ethical consideration has some underlying assumptions, and you need to learn what those are. She needs to teach you.

I'd use a script like this:

"We need to talk about our difficulties. You know how I feel about sex, but you've told me that you still feel it's wrong. I can appreciate what you're telling me, but I don't understand. *I think that I need you to help me understand. Could you please explain why you feel this way?*"

And then let her talk. You listen, and see if you can't learn the reasons why this is happening. Don't be judgmental! And *especially don't blame her college, because you don't knowthat her college is the cause of this.* Find out what she understands first, and once you've done that, then you can begin to take apart her assumptions.


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## Katya (Jun 23, 2011)

I agree with PHTlump and come from the same background/beliefs. 

I strongly feel that your wife's feelings here are not simply a belief based on what she learned in her late teens/early twenties. This sort of thing is imbedded far earlier--back into her childhood I'm fairly sure. There might even be some issues of abuse or molestation (not necessarily within the family--I know you'd hate to think that of your inlaws) but these are the things that colour a grown woman's view of sex.
I also ditto the advice of a Christian counselor. You might not think it's important, but obviously on some level, the morality of it all is still somewhat of a factor (but I state again that I think that's just a surface issue--it's what she can formulate into words right now, while the real, deeper issue is perhaps beyond her recognition right now) and a Christian counselor will be able to authouritatively put all that nonsense to rest.
If you can't find one, check with Focus on the Families hotline. They can put you in contact with Christian counselors and you can specifically ask for one that is good with sex issues. Also they have lots of great books on sex from a Christian perspective. A couple I remember from my premarital counseling included authors Hybels and Wheat. (separate guys). I'm thinking these for your wife to read.

A final thing that just might be contributing here is the whole issue of not making it to the wedding night. This can be a big source of guilt when staying a virgin to your wedding night is important to you. It can definitely spur a huge sense of shame and guilt and that can turn into resentment towards the husband because as loving and whatever as you thought you were, she might look back on it like it was a pressure situation and regret it. That all needs to be addressed. 
She's definitely clamming up and I think to get to her, you're going to have to get vulnerable and share your heart. This is absolutely wrong what she's doing, but it's not like new wives set out to make their husbands miserable and do what's wrong. She sees this as insurmountable and doesn't know what to do--be the man here, take the leadership and get this dealt with.
I may be reading alot into her feelings and may be inaccurate in part, but I can connect with alot of what you're saying from her perspective, so I've got a gut feeling about it here.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I did a thread on the whole "good girl" mentality - and how Sexual Repression can be the result for SOME women, even after mararige. THe more serious you take your faith and all those "flesh" scriptures , the more a woman may struggle, greatly hindering her God given sexuality. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...sets-collide-sexually-repressed-awakened.html 

From a Psychological standpoint -this is a good article to read Sexual Guilt

If she is willing to read a purely CHRISTIAN book on SEX within marraige - I highly recommend this one for starters - http://www.amazon.com/Sheet-Music-U...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1309208415&sr=1-1


I've personally read many stories like yours on this very unique Christian sex forum The Marriage Bed • Index page Couples who were trying to wait, they slipped up, the wife was guilt ridden, some who had HOT sex for a time, got saved, stopped for God , and the wife totally shut down her sexuality . These things should never never never happen, but they do!!! It is a mindset and it can destroy a marriage if the women does not get some sexual education, and overcome it. 

She may well need counseling. I would recommend some good secular books on sexuality-written by Sex Therapists. The christian ones never did me any favors in my earlier marriage (didn't have "Sheet music" back then).


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## Colell (Jun 27, 2011)

SimplyAmorous, I really appreciate your comments and the links you included. Do you have any other good references? She's kind of busy with work now, so books may not be useful now, but I'd appreciate anything.

Katya, thank you as well for your comments. I think I'm going to try and open up to my wife tonight when she gets home from work or tomorrow.

Speaking of the opening up, does anyone have any advice on how to approach this? Like I said earlier, every time I bring up something about her that is not-so-positive, she tends to clam up and I lose the entire discussion. Any advice for when this happens? I'd really like some advice form both guys and girls on this one. I don't want to back her into a corner, but with what I'm wanting to talk about, I don't really see how I can keep that from happening. The beginning kind of has to be a one-way discussion before she has a chance at rebuttal. So let me know what you think. 

Thanks!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

It makes this monumentally difficult if you have a wife who wants to block communication & immediately clams up with certain subjects, shutting herself off -just as she does sexually. She HAS to be willing to hear you out. This is a matter of LOVE and RESPECT - listening to one another. 

I personallly was never like this, so it is hard for me to relate here. Maybe others can chime in. I am so emotionally open with my feelings , sometimes it is overkill. I myself get very annoyed when others are like your wife, I would even loose my patience. 

Just to change the scenery, can you plan a special outing , somewhere just the 2 of you, quiet peaceful, possibly romantic, let her know (upfront) you NEED to talk to her about something very important and get her to agree to HEAR YOU OUT. She will likely suspect it is THIS, and you will have to be honest about that. BUt make no apologies for it, THIS IS IMPORTANT. 

Give her the sun & moon if she asks in addition but THIS is going to happen. 

Maybe you can work on a letter expressing all of your concerns, fears, what this is doing TO YOU, what it may do to your marraige, a list of questions for her, the goal being she will be willing to open up and EXPLORE her belief system in this regard and understand she HAS been mislead somewhere down the line. Because Sex/making love, whatever you want to call it >>>> it is a beautiful sacred thing between a husband and a wife. God inspired. Have this letter carefully written so you can read it back to her when this moment comes. 

That Sheet music book would be wonderful to read together, something you can agree to do every night. 

I am curious if your wife was like most young girls, having BIG crushes on famous movie stars, rock stars--going "ga ga" , does seeing a hot scene on an R rated movie (or maybe you do not watch these) does this turn her on? Has she ever read a romance novel ? Or is her beliefs against all of these things? Has she ever masterbated? (probably too embarrased to answer this honestly) -for me back then, I think I would have died if someone asked me this and even LIED, probably the only thing I ever lied about in my life. Cause I felt guilty about it -very shameful. I was supposed to be a christian in my youth but I always went GAGA over hot guys, especially rock stars, loved romance novels, I think I was pretty normal, I see this as a right of passage for most girls -feeling those sexual urges towards the opposite sex. ( a gooood sign!) 

DO you think she has any sexual abuse in her past, seen things to turn her off of sex? As for me, I see my own Mother being USED by many men (at her allowance) when I was a young girl and of coarse -this played on my mind, why I never allowed myself to be taken advantage of & waited till marraige for intercoarse. It put a sour taste in my mouth against the "act"- it seemed so DIRTY to me, because I seen at a young age how it was used -without love. 


Hopefully your wife has a nice sex drive under this repressive mindset. I DID. But It was hidden, veiled, my mind worked against me not allowing me to fully engage and let loose .


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Cole,
Read the link below and then come back and post what you think. Before you tell me anything else I am going to tell you something important. You are massively pressuring/crowding her. MASSIVELY. The fact that she rejects you daily means you are initiating sex daily. It is very toxic for BOTH of you, for you to initiate sex again and again when it is clear she doesn't want to have it. 

Constant pressure for sex is a HUGE turnoff. You are going to need to turn the temperature way, way down if you want any chance at sex. BTW - I am fairly sure this has nothing to do with sex being "bad" and everything to do with her feeling smothered. 

You need to learn to be friendly, upbeat and WAY less loving. STOP saying I love you to her. UNLESS she says it first. Do not approach her to touch her/hug her. Let her approach you. And don't call/email/text during the day. Let her reach out to you. All the books in the world will not help you if you continue to crowd her emotionally. 


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html




Colell said:


> SimplyAmorous, I really appreciate your comments and the links you included. Do you have any other good references? She's kind of busy with work now, so books may not be useful now, but I'd appreciate anything.
> 
> Katya, thank you as well for your comments. I think I'm going to try and open up to my wife tonight when she gets home from work or tomorrow.
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I missed the* daily *refusal thing- this is too much trying. My husband may have wanted it every day but he probably only put himself out there with the opportuity to be outright rejected - at the most twice a week. 

I never felt smothered at all. It was never my issue, but definitely could be here. 

As frustrating as it may be, backing away may be your best strategy, let your sudden interest in other things grab her attention, let her come to you, then you can bring up "the talk".


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

"but when we did see each other, we had no problems. As soon as we were married, though, everything seemed to change. Since then, I've been rejected on a daily basis."

Let's see if I've got this straight. This nice Christian girl believes sex before marriage is just peachy but sex after marriage is morally wrong? During those few episodes of great pre-marital sex, I wonder if you smelled the odor of cheese because it would appear the trap has been sprung on you. 

Here's how I imagine this could play out...
When she figures out you're upset enough to split (or when she finds you having an affair) she'll begin to be more sexual. She'll get pregnant and once baby is born, you'll be back in the sexual desert forever listening to an incredible array of excuses why you're not getting any.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Cole,
> Read the link below and then come back and post what you think. Before you tell me anything else I am going to tell you something important. You are massively pressuring/crowding her. MASSIVELY. The fact that she rejects you daily means you are initiating sex daily. It is very toxic for BOTH of you, for you to initiate sex again and again when it is clear she doesn't want to have it.


With all due respect MEM, he's been married less than a year, and by a rough bit of maths must be in his early 20's or so. His wanting sex every day is not abnormal. If he's crowding / smothering her by being normal, what other normal patterns of behaviour are going to be a problem too?



> Constant pressure for sex is a HUGE turnoff. You are going to need to turn the temperature way, way down if you want any chance at sex. BTW - I am fairly sure this has nothing to do with sex being "bad" and everything to do with her feeling smothered.


MEM may well be right, BUT just in case it isn't just smothering, but she really does have a probelm with sex as well, make a contingency plan. 



> You need to learn to be friendly, upbeat and WAY less loving. STOP saying I love you to her. UNLESS she says it first. Do not approach her to touch her/hug her. Let her approach you. And don't call/email/text during the day. Let her reach out to you. All the books in the world will not help you if you continue to crowd her emotionally.
> 
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html


Hopefully this will send her the message you aren't crowding her and she'll open up to you. On the other hand, if she interprets you being "way less loving" as as you simply being mean or rejecting her, have a contingency plan. If she is just glad you aren't bothering her for sex, but are friendly, and simply carries on as she is, thinking you've come round to her way of thinking, have a contingency plan.

If she holds the view that sex in marriage is not a good thing, but simply a better thing than sex outside marriage (which is really bad), and should be avoided except for procreation or otherwise only done at the barest minimum level required to prevent straying, you have problem. Short of a Damascene moment, she will not let go of this belief.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Life is too short to invest very much of it trying to breathe life into an icecube.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Look, she's being pretty honest with you. She's saying no not never right up front. Consider that one time before your wedding day just a mistake. I don't know if your faith has monasteries or nuns and whatnot but that's where she belongs. You should get some sort of annulment and chalk it up to a learning experience. It's a waste of time to pursue this.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

The situation you describe will be very hard to overcome. It is not impossible, but would be very difficult and there is no guarantee that it ever changes. In fact, will probabably get worse. I would recommend going the divorce route before a baby comes along.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

@ Colell ~

Only you, along with your wife, know the level of commitment that you have in trying to resolve this problem. You should not think you need to jump immediately to divorce/annulment if you are BOTH committed to resolving this. If your wife shows no commitment to working on this, then you can consider other options.

I would suggest that you do get this issue resolved first, one way or another, before you think of having children together.


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## Colell (Jun 27, 2011)

Thank you all for your input. It's very helpful. Please keep it coming. I'm a believer in taking in all sides of an argument before making a decision.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Colell said:


> Thank you all for your input. It's very helpful. Please keep it coming. I'm a believer in taking in all sides of an argument before making a decision.


My suggestion would be that if she is willing to show commitment to working on this and you want to exhaust all of your options first, then she should be willing to go to a sex therapist/counselor with you. If she is willing to do that and you can see some traction there, you can decide where to go from there. If she's not willing to entertain doing much of anything to overcome this, then you have your answer, I guess, and you can be confident that you tried your best.

Don't bring any children in to the situation until it gets resolved one way or another.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

No matter what someone else says, this will be a a complicated project that takes alot of time and effort and there is no guarantee it willl work, and even if it works there is no guarantee that it will last. One of the things you have to realize is she may become "cured" when her bio clock tells her it's time to have kids... and this cure will be over the minute a child comes.

Given what you describe, your wife has a mental flaw that quite possible she will never get over. I'm sorry to point this out. I would at least be giving her an ultimatum... Telling her that if the marriage is not sexual then it is not a marriage in either your eye's or God's eyes and that you are going to make it official.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hicks said:


> No matter what someone else says, this will be a a complicated project that takes alot of time and effort and there is no guarantee it willl work, and even if it works there is no guarantee that it will last. One of the things you have to realize is she may become "cured" when her bio clock tells her it's time to have kids... and this cure will be over the minute a child comes.
> 
> Given what you describe, your wife has a mental flaw that quite possible she will never get over. I'm sorry to point this out. I would at least be giving her an ultimatum... Telling her that if the marriage is not sexual then it is not a marriage in either your eye's or God's eyes and that you are going to make it official.


There are no guarantees about anything in life - except death.

You can just as easily marry what seems to be the perfect spouse and have it go in to the weeds years later for any number of reasons. Like I said - no guarantees about anything.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sawney,
Totally agree daily sex is normal healthy at that age with no kids.

I also believe that his pattern of asking daily in the face of constant rejection shows very poor coping skills.

He is not responding to her sexual cues at all and likely not paying attention to her general emotional cues.

If he doesn't turn down the temperature game over. 


OTE=Sawney Beane;360083]With all due respect MEM, he's been married less than a year, and by a rough bit of maths must be in his early 20's or so. His wanting sex every day is not abnormal. If he's crowding / smothering her by being normal, what other normal patterns of behaviour are going to be a problem too?



MEM may well be right, BUT just in case it isn't just smothering, but she really does have a probelm with sex as well, make a contingency plan. 



Hopefully this will send her the message you aren't crowding her and she'll open up to you. On the other hand, if she interprets you being "way less loving" as as you simply being mean or rejecting her, have a contingency plan. If she is just glad you aren't bothering her for sex, but are friendly, and simply carries on as she is, thinking you've come round to her way of thinking, have a contingency plan.

If she holds the view that sex in marriage is not a good thing, but simply a better thing than sex outside marriage (which is really bad), and should be avoided except for procreation or otherwise only done at the barest minimum level required to prevent straying, you have problem. Short of a Damascene moment, she will not let go of this belief.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

I believe when people tell you the truth about themselves you should listen. She believes sex is wrong. And if you want it daily then you've got the wrong woman. This isn't even about a low drive spouse marrying a high drive one. This is flat out a deep seated belief that sex is wrong. Even if she commits herself to changing it will likely take YEARS to do. YEARS if not a decade. Are you willing to wait that long on the hopes that she "might" change? My bet is she will never get over this. She needs to NOT be married.

My vote is at only a year into a marriage with no kids I'd run. This isn't going to end well.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Sawney,
> Totally agree daily sex is normal healthy at that age with no kids.
> 
> I also believe that his pattern of asking daily in the face of constant rejection shows very poor coping skills.


No arguement here



> He is not responding to her sexual cues at all and likely not paying attention to her general emotional cues.


No, he isn't - because there are no sexual cues to respond to! Unless you count "I feel sex is immoral", which as cues go is up there with "p*ss off and stop bothering me".



> If he doesn't turn down the temperature game over.


I just don't see turning the temperature down as a winning plan here. I can only see two responses from her: either resentment because she feels he's withdrawing the love she feels she deserves over something she feels is plain wrong, or relief because she thinks he's come round to her point of view. Neither of these is a winner


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## Colell (Jun 27, 2011)

So does anyone see this working out at all? I still love her and I don't want to lose her, but sex is a huge part of a good marriage and I don't know if I can keep going like this. I'm not sure how to say it without it sounding like a contradiction. The love is there, but I don't feel a real connection with her anymore. My worry is that if this keeps going the way it is, the love will start to go as well. 
Now don't get me wrong, I'm gonna fight like hell for this. I don't quit anything without a fight, but does anyone see us beating this?

Come on. Someone has to be holding out a little hope.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Colell said:


> So does anyone see this working out at all?
> 
> Come on. Someone has to be holding out a little hope.


Nope when someone says sex is wrong that's pretty much a dealbreaker. It's kinda like if you want kids and the other doesn't. This isn't anything you can compromise on. It's either there or it isn't. Plain and simple.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Well, the path to fixing it and the path to divorce is the same path. It involves you holding her accountable to living in a sexual marriage, and a marriage where she is accountable to meet your needs. It involves you inviting her to be in a proper marriage or she makes the choice whether to a) stay and work on her sexual attitude or b) chooses to leave your zone.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Colell said:


> Every once in a while, she'll come home and we'll be amazingly intimate, she'll really be into it and I really feel a reconnection with her (this has happened maybe three times total). At that point I feel like we're making progress, until I find out that it came from a church sermon, article, or discussion that really inspired her to open up, which means that it won't ever happen again.


I don't mean to state the obvious but I will anyway, there's something big in this. The approval for her to know it's okay. Maybe you need to start going to church daily. 

I liked what 'fhg1983' suggested. I think if you can truly listen to her, even if you decide to divorce, it could save you looking back later and having unanswered questions. Once you have a good understanding from her, not from your own assumptions, you'll be able to decide whether it's workable or not for you. Then again, sex _is_ really important to a relationship and you could just move on now before wasting any more time.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Yeah I don't get it. I'm not in any way a Christian but how can marrying someone and subjecting them to this be moral.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

It isn't, but it is nauseatingly typical and predictable.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> It isn't, but it is nauseatingly typical and predictable.


Just curious - why do you think that is?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States, a compendium of the most comprehensive survey data on sexual practices since the Kinsey Report. Ask men how often they think about sex and "the majority of males between 18-to-59 of the U.S. population report that they think about sex at least once a day -- one third think of it several times a day," says Laumann. "Only 25% of females report thinking about it every day."

A high drive male coupled with a low drive female describes the vast majority of marriages. The arrangement is beyond typical.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

In a survey of 31,581 women across the U.S. ages 18 to 102, 44 percent reported having sexual problems, the most common being low desire for sex.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> The Social Organization of Sexuality: Sexual Practices in the United States, a compendium of the most comprehensive survey data on sexual practices since the Kinsey Report. Ask men how often they think about sex and "the majority of males between 18-to-59 of the U.S. population report that they think about sex at least once a day -- one third think of it several times a day," says Laumann. "Only 25% of females report thinking about it every day."
> 
> A high drive male coupled with a low drive female describes the vast majority of marriages. The arrangement is beyond typical.


Indeed the arrangement is typical, in large part because of the physical make-up of males and females. Females have significantly less testosterone in their bodies than males, therefore do not have anywhere near the drive of a male.

Perhaps we should all give up on marriage right now, since there will never be an equilibrium. Wait a minute - what's that I hear? Oh yes, marriage is about more than just physical drive and sex. Yes, indeed, if you care enough and respect your partner enough, both the high drive and the low drive can come together if they are willing to work at it and compromise on their sexual differences.

But, that's right. We don't have to worry about you because you are going to be in Costa Rica getting eaten by SKEETERS.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> In a survey of 31,581 women across the U.S. ages 18 to 102, 44 percent reported having sexual problems, the most common being low desire for sex.


I would not be surprised if the figure is higher because people like to lie on surveys. But how do you even quantify low drive? I consider myself low drive, and I would be happy with it once a week. And my husband, bless his poor little depraved heart cannot get enough and would like it everyday (luckily we are down from the 3 or so times a day from when we were first married 23 years ago.) Yet if I had met a man who was happy with every other week, well - I would be the high drive spouse. What a wonder that would be. In some ways saying low desire is a relative term.

Maybe a high percentage of women have low desire for sex because of their partner or their life circumstances. Who knows?

Part of being in a marriage means you are willing to compromise with each other. I had to learn that the hard way.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

On a brighter note, wife (who hates to cook) has made two extremely killer dinners two nights in a row. She obviously went to some trouble and I don't believe I've ever eaten anything better. The quickest path to my heart is through my penis, but the stomach route works pretty well, too. All I've wanted was a little effort from her. It wasn't in the bedroom but it was sincere, it was nice, it was for me, and I appreciated it. Small (tasty) victories.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Colell said:


> So does anyone see this working out at all? I still love her and I don't want to lose her, but sex is a huge part of a good marriage and I don't know if I can keep going like this. I'm not sure how to say it without it sounding like a contradiction. The love is there, but I don't feel a real connection with her anymore. My worry is that if this keeps going the way it is, the love will start to go as well.
> Now don't get me wrong, I'm gonna fight like hell for this. I don't quit anything without a fight, but does anyone see us beating this?
> 
> Come on. Someone has to be holding out a little hope.


Not here. Think of it this way: could _you_ realign your whole moral compass to do something your wife wanted you to do to meet her needs? Do something you deeply and strongly believe is just plain wrong because she thinks you should? And if you do, what does that realignment do to the rest of your world view, personality and self-respect?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Not here. Think of it this way: could _you_ realign your whole moral compass to do something your wife wanted you to do to meet her needs? Do something you deeply and strongly believe is just plain wrong because she thinks you should? And if you do, what does that realignment do to the rest of your world view, personality and self-respect?


I think your analogy is off. The OP doesn't want his wife to something she thinks is wrong. He wants to convince her that it's not wrong. The wife could just suck it up and commit the heinous act, but you are correct that she would hate herself for it. Once she is convinced that her current beliefs are incorrect, it should be no problem for her to have sex with her husband.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

To the OP, I think the chance of her snapping out of this on her own is low. She will need therapy. That means many, hour-long sessions where she talks to a sex therapist. There are Christian sex therapists available if she wants to go that route.

As you've seen, it can't be solved by one conversation with a pastor, or friend. She needs professional help.

And, you need to work on manning up as well, so that you are more attractive to her. Begging for sex daily is certainly not what women find attractive.

I think it's possible for her to change, but I won't give odds.

Good luck.


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## Riverside MFT (Oct 5, 2009)

I have occasionally dealt with issues like this in counseling. It can be very frustrating for both spouses in the relationship. I always recommend a book called "And They Were Not Ashamed" by Luara Brotherson. Fantastic book that talks about the sexual relationship between a husband and wife and how to deal with feeling unmoral about sex.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I just looked that book up on amazon, here is the link : http://www.amazon.com/They-Were-Not-Ashamed-Strengthening/dp/1587830345


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## Colell (Jun 27, 2011)

Thank you for all of your help. I've just ordered that book along with a couple of others that have been recommended.

Now just to clear one thing up. I don't go up to my wife and scream for sex everyday. I should have been a little more clear about it in the first place. When I said that, I meant that I try to get her aroused through various means, but I've hardly ever said "hey, wanna have sex." And the rejection doesn't usually come in the form "hey, get the hell off me," either. It's usually just passive withdrawal, the changing of the subject, or saying she has other stuff to do.


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## Katya (Jun 23, 2011)

Colell, I do hold out hope for you guys. Just because you're here and searching, and still loving her, and hoping for a change. That's all a powerful combination and I think you can get through this. I just think a lot more talking about this can help get to the bottom (on top of the other great suggestions of that book and counselling) as long as you are always coming at it from an 'I want to learn, want to understand, these are my feelings' kind of angle and not a 'you're depriving me you crazy moralist'. (I don't think you would, but it's all about perception). Just keep trying to get to the bottom of it--I would still be very surprised to find out that this is just a matter of religious belief. If that's the case, then God's Word can clearly put that to rest. If that's what she's basing her belief on, then Solomon and his stag clearly are in the wrong canon. There's just no justification in the bible for this kind of attitude, and this is coming from the product of a very religious, many generations family and graduate of one of the more conservative bible colleges in the US. 
Don't give up on her.


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## Riverside MFT (Oct 5, 2009)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I just looked that book up on amazon, here is the link : http://www.amazon.com/They-Were-Not-Ashamed-Strengthening/dp/1587830345


SA, 
Thanks for backing me up on my laziness to copy the link from Amazon.


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## fhg1893 (Jun 25, 2011)

Colell said:


> Thank you for all of your help. I've just ordered that book along with a couple of others that have been recommended.
> 
> Now just to clear one thing up. I don't go up to my wife and scream for sex everyday. I should have been a little more clear about it in the first place. When I said that, I meant that I try to get her aroused through various means, but I've hardly ever said "hey, wanna have sex." And the rejection doesn't usually come in the form "hey, get the hell off me," either. It's usually just passive withdrawal, the changing of the subject, or saying she has other stuff to do.


Regarding what you said about things working out, and this. 

Colell, there are too many unknowns to say whether or not this can work. On the face of things, I'd say that there's a good chance; you've only been married a year, and it took my wife and I about 11 years before we worked out most of our issues! Marriage is supposed to be for life, and it takes some time before you really work things out. 

So, you need to know what the basis is for her ethical objection to sex in the context of a marriage? 

For example, if it's a biblical objection then the answer is to demonstrate the biblical sanction and approval of sex in the context of a marriage. The Song of Songs comes to mind, and not being more than a casual biblical scholar, I can't really point to any other indicators, but there must be more.

I reiterate what I said earlier. *Why* is important here. You need to know at least the rationale for her objection. The idea here is to try *reasoning first.* If she says something like, "Sex is amoral," that's an argument from philosophical ethics, which are, based on ideas. Find those ideas, and deconstruct them. To do that, you need to *listen.*

It's rarely so simple, and I doubt that it will end there, but it's a start.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Handing your spouse a book on how to fix themselves does not work.
What if she handed you a book called "How to be celibate in Marriage"... with all sorts of rationales proving her case for a non sexual marriage? 

I really think logic and reasoning does not work. You have to make a marriage that she loves to be part of and put this as a condition for keeping it, and letting her make the choice between her good marriage or maintaining celebacy.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Hicks said:


> I really think logic and reasoning does not work. You have to make a marriage that she loves to be part of and put this as a condition for keeping it, and letting her make the choice between her good marriage or maintaining celebacy.


I think Sawney Beane was right about coercion. Since the OP's wife thinks sex is immoral, there's probably not enough carrots to convince her to just do something she thinks is immoral in order to keep the carrots coming.

I think the ultimate solution, if it's possible, is to find the basis of her belief and then attack that basis with logic and reasoning. Once she is convinced that sex is moral within marriage, she should have no problems engaging.


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## Colell (Jun 27, 2011)

That's a very good point. I wasn't planning on just ordering them and then telling her to read them. I'm the one that's going to read them. Hopefully I'll find some stuff in there that will help me open a good line of communication with her. Then hopefully we can talk about it and work through it. If she asks about books or blogs or something, then I might give them to her, saying whether I found them helpful or not. So if she wants to take that avenue on own accord, she can. I'm not going to force it on her. I'm just looking for ways to help myself get through to her. 

Our marriage is still new and we're still young, so I think that the "tough love" approach is still far from here. Though it may come quickly if I try all this and she's still not reacting constructively.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

It's not tough love. The first step is to make sure she loves her marriage to you so much that she would do anything to keep it.


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Hicks said:


> It's not tough love. The first step is to make sure she loves her marriage to you so much that she would do anything to keep it.


I 100% agree and the longer he allows it to continue (the celebacy that is) the harder it will be to end it.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

It has nothing to do with sex really. That's why a book about sex is not helpful. It would be like handing a man a book about why home decor is important to a woman.

It is about one person in the marriage deciding they don't care to meet the needs of the other. The one individual is saying I want to show you that I refuse to meet your needs. The wife is asserting power over the OP. Agree totally that this cannot be "accepted" even for a minute more. A better book is "His Needs / Her Needs" and a statement from the husband that we are going to work together to build a marriage where both of us get our needs met. It is highly probable that he is not meeting her needs very well.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

Colell said:


> Everything sexually was wonderful right up until the day we said "I do." We didn't see each other that often (I was taking summer courses in preparation for graduate school and she was coordinating the wedding stuff while trying to find a job.), but when we did see each other, we had no problems. As soon as we were married, though, everything seemed to change. Since then, I've been rejected on a daily basis.
> Last night, she told me (10 months into the marriage) that she still feels that sex is wrong. Looking back on it now, I'm not sure if I'd rather know that she thinks it's morally wrong or think all of the other reasons that ran through my head in the past ten months.





Colell said:


> For almost a year now, I've been dealing with rejection after rejection from the woman that tells me she loves me. I feel almost no connection to my wife.





Colell said:


> Every once in a while, she'll come home and we'll be amazingly intimate, she'll really be into it and I really feel a reconnection with her (this has happened maybe three times total). At that point I feel like we're making progress, until I find out that it came from a church sermon, article, or discussion that really inspired her to open up, which means that it won't ever happen again.
> My wife says she has talked to pastors, friends, and other women about this and so far none of them have been any help. We've tried talking about it, but I don't know what to tell her.


Colell,

I think that having you and your wife seek the counsel of a Christian counselor is definitely one of the best ways to combat her feelings that sex with you is immoral. 

However, there may be something deeper at play here in her "shying away" from you when it comes to sexual matters in your marriage. If she is a born again believer, whether it be her becoming so before you met, at her college, during the dating, engagement, or marriage, the true conversion of a person is radical in nature. This may not be comforting to you, but it is an internal condition that she may have. If both of you are not on the same page concerning worldview, philosophy, spiritual, religious issues, etc. there will be some measure of discord between you. 

My wife and I are both Christians, but we do have slight differences in our theology, which caused issues in our marriage. eventually, we agreed that if we are not discussing those differences within the framework of love, grace, patience, understanding, honor, respect, and forbearance, then no matter who was right it did not mean a thing. Search for truth needs to be set within these frameworks, or else terrible consequences can occur within a marriage.

My advise to you is to do the same. Ask your wife what she believes and just listen. It has been mentioned before on the thread, but it is worth saying again, she may feel guilty about pre-marital sex with you. Guilt is a sticky thing. It sticks to one's life and will not go away unless that person simply ignors it long enough (not likely in your wife's case) or until she can feel forgiveness from those she feels she has offended by the pre-marital sex with you. Most likely those persons are God and herself. If she has not done it already, from a biblical perspective, she will need to confess what she did to God and then feel the release from the guilt, and realize that she is forgiven. 

If you really want to help your wife in this, then understand that these passages of the Bible that bare these biblical truths of forgiveness are the only things that can help her get out for under the weight of guilt she feels. It could be that she does not even know what she believes, but still somehow believes that sex with you is immoral. The point is that she needs to hear God's forgiveness and believe it in order to be set free from the debilitating effects of her guilt.

You may not see life the way that she does, may not believe in God and sin, but these scripture passages should say everything that she needs to hear to be set free and to have her husband show help through it with them may be what she needs. Be honest, say that someone shared these scriptures with you and that you wanted to share them with her to help her through this.

God's forgiveness passages that you can bring to her are:

“Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” (Hebrews 4:16)

“Come to me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28)

“Cast your burden on the Lord, and He shall sustain you; He shall never permit the righteous to be moved.” (Psalm 55:22)

“My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” (1 John 2:1)

“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

“Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.” (Acts 3:19)

“I, even I, am He who blots out your transgressions for My own sake; and I will not remember your sins. Put Me in remembrance; let us contend together; state your case, that you may be acquitted.” (Isaiah 43:25-26)

“There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus …” (Romans 8:1)

“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away, behold, all things have become new.” (2 Corinthians 5:17)

“In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.” (Ephesians 1:7)

And...

When she finally forgives herself and feels that you will forbear with her through this difficulty in the way that she needs to be helped, then you can show her the verse that should convince her that sex in marriage is not only good, but it is very critical for the health of the marriage. Read the verse in the context, not of ownership of your wife's body, but that there is an obligation to meet each other's sexual needs within the confines of your marriage.

1 Cor. 7:2-8... each man should have his own wife, and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.


Whatever your worldview is, her worldview is oriented in the framework of the bible if she is a Christian and the scriptures of grace, forgiveness, and freedom through God's forgiveness by his terms, through Jesus, are the only way to help her in my opinion. As her husband you will help her to come to terms with her dilemma, and not just be on the sidelines waiting for some religious counselor to do what anyone with the right scriptures for a Christian can do.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

duplicate deleted


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I think Sawney Beane was right about coercion. Since the OP's wife thinks sex is immoral, there's probably not enough carrots to convince her to just do something she thinks is immoral in order to keep the carrots coming.
> 
> 
> I think the ultimate solution, if it's possible, is to find the basis of her belief and then attack that basis with logic and reasoning. Once she is convinced that sex is moral within marriage, she should have no problems engaging.


Part of the problem may be that she sees what she is doing as essentially "right". You're not arguing with someone who steals cars that they ought to give up thieving.

If you can attack the basis of her belief you might have a chance, but it is _imperative_ that you attack the belief without attacking _her_. If she thinks you're attacking her she will dig in.

Please try to make sure your theological arguements don't spiral out of control. The results on a large scale aren't pretty.
PHTlump - I saw your post before you deleted it - shame you did, I think it added to the discussion, and it seemed to have points above and beyond Rough Patch's post.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

Colell,

I can sum my last post in these words. Her problem is effecting you in a sexually negative way. For the sake of helping her defeat this problem and to help relieve the problems you are experiencing, it works best to attack the problem in using tactics that will help her overcome her emotional problem (that seems to be wound around an incorrect perspective of her worldview) from her worldview perspective. Not fixing her problem from yours or anybody else's world view. 

In fact, proper negotiations which all marriages do when it comes to having to have a compromise be acceptable by both the husband and wife, to see the problem from the viewpoint of the other party of the negotiations. This allow you to better come to a resolution together. I talk about that tactic in my article:  Intimate Marriage and I will be focusing on successful negotiations as they apply to marriage in an up-and-coming article about the 50 50 marriage, soon.

The worldview issue is why people can talk about the same issue and see it from totally different points of view.

Also, as far as I can surmise, she couldn't possibly be having a true moral problem, since having sex with you, her husband, is not a moral issue (since you do not appear to be forcing her to have sex and are not abusing her in any way). For that reason it seems that most likely it is a guilt issue. 

Also, the ministers and friends may not be helping her with her guilt issues, if in fact that is the root cause of "her" moral stance on the issue in question.

I may have missed this in reading the prior posts, but has she told you why "she feels" that it is immoral to have sex with you? That may shed the light that is needed to crack this mystery.


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## Colell (Jun 27, 2011)

That's what the initial conversation will cover. In the past she has said that she has the moral issue with sex, but she doesn't know why that is. She says that she knows she shouldn't feel that way, but she does, which makes me think it may be a guilt thing as well. But the first thing is going to be finding out why she feels the way she does.

I think I know how to approach this, but the problem is that she's been put into a really stressful situation at work this week which will last for probably another week or two. So I think it would be best to ride it out until she's less stressed out. That's the main reason for the books right now. I have a week or two to read up and prepare.


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## Danielson67 (Mar 10, 2011)

I think she's probably feeling terribly guilty about the sex before marriage thing. Perhaps she needs to find wholeness from that by forgiving herself and you. Ask her if she resents you for having premarital sex. Ask her if she resents herself for it? Also share with her that it was God who created our bodies, with all the wonderful nerve endings and mental and emotional attachments to and desires for sex. Tell her it was God who gave her a clitoris... this little mound of wonder has no other purpose than for enjoyment! If she was not meant to enjoy sex, she wouldn't have a clitoris... just sayin! You both probably need to see a good Christian therapist or at least get some good solid Christian books and help for this... best of luck.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

Colell,

Kudos for having the right attitude in handling this with sensitivity and consideration for your wife's emotional and state and stress-level state. It will do you well in riding this through. Love bears all and waits!


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

Was she sexually abused? (she may not have told you)


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Here's what I would do. . .tell her you went out and converted to Catholicism and if you don't consummate the marraige, or more accurately, the marriage is not in a state of consummation, in the eyes of God, it becomes invalid.

Invalid marriage = annullment and legal divorce.

Married people are supposed to be boinking. . .plain and simple.

From Gods lips. . .to my fingers. . .to Talk About Marriage.

I am not sure if it is fair to blame her Conservative Christian upbringing. . .but I do think they had a hand in it, yes. I beleive your intuition is right on this one.

At the very least, it's used as a justification for her behavior/low libido.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

And yes, with all due respect to our resident therapist here, okay, go ahead and try "Talk Therapy", for the sake of your marriage, but I don't think it's going to do it.

Sensitive question: Is she obese/overweight? How is her health?

Recently, the Catholic Church has posited that married people aren't having sex enough in today's world. They probably went "official" with this seeing a lot of marriages becoming invalid and hearing many tribunals on granting annulment. They did point to obesity as being one of the causes (Deadly sins: sloth and gluttony).

Hormonally, this seems odd. Usually hormones, within the context of marriage, often override any "Conservative Christian" morals and you are given the "go" by your religion.

I recently dated a very obese woman (well, 1 date) and I did tell her, despite her being very beautiful (she's got a cherub angelic face - gorgeous), obesity is a risk factor to a relationship.

You mentioned "good cooking" and whatnot so I am just exploring this tangent.


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## bunny23 (May 19, 2011)

Scanner- I tend to agree, when I got married it seemed like I was "free" in a way? Like we were closer and it was sexy. Kind of "belonging" to each other...

There seems to be other stuff going on. Although, you program someone that sex is bad for long enough and maybe they can't get over it?


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

Bunny,

Be it known I am neither a practicing Catholic nor a sanctioned Catholic Apologist (yeah, they actually have them - they are sanctioned to explain Catholic doctrine), but I am a student of it, I find a lot of it fascinating from a historical perspective and yes, you "belong" to each other, the sanctifying of the marriage now basically says 2 bodies are 1.

There are serious religious peripheral issues at work here.

You see, Catholic doctrine believes one of the purpose, maybe even the main "purpose" of marriage is to be "productive" (Kids = More Catholics). All the talk about sex here at TAM. . .the forum tends to forget - what's the real purpose of sex? Recreation? No, it's to reproduce. Real hardline Catholics may even take this to say an older woman shouldn't even be called to marriage because of this. I think actually though, the Church has relaxed their position on that (thankfully - I would think companionship and mutual care would be a good enough reason for marriage).

So, while a Protestant sect may beleive no matter what, he took his vows and he's "stuck" with her. . .well no. . .a person has a right to an annullment if his/her ability to reproduce is seriously hampered.

An annullment means as if it never happened.

This is a byproduct of years goneby when family size meant a lot.

So, sex every 10 months (I forget the frequency). . .it's a serious concern to the validity of the marriage. Maybe it was every 2 months. . .I think the validity of this marriage may be hanging on by a thread.

I am not sure how a tribunal would go if this was in front of them, but you can bet they would try to intervene and get hips moving. If it didnt', 10:1 bet the tribuanl would grant him a right to annullment.

In the end, there *are* justifiable reasons for divorce (legal) and annullment (religious).

Of course, she may on a totally different wavelength with her doctrine. There are literally 100's of sects of Christianity and this country was founded by religious radical Puritans and evolved into being Fox News.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

All of this is a reaction to your behavior OUTSIDE the bedroom. All of it. She is simply afraid to tell you what you are doing that is killing her desire. And she is simply creating the morality argument as a safe way to avoid an honest conversation about the TOTAL lack of desire she has. 

Or she isn't consciously aware. But being too needy - and my guess is that you are somehow coming across that way - is a huge desire killer. 

Until you deal with the "desire" killing behaviors - you will get nowhere.....



Colell said:


> That's what the initial conversation will cover. In the past she has said that she has the moral issue with sex, but she doesn't know why that is. She says that she knows she shouldn't feel that way, but she does, which makes me think it may be a guilt thing as well. But the first thing is going to be finding out why she feels the way she does.
> 
> I think I know how to approach this, but the problem is that she's been put into a really stressful situation at work this week which will last for probably another week or two. So I think it would be best to ride it out until she's less stressed out. That's the main reason for the books right now. I have a week or two to read up and prepare.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If she thought sex was immoral, she wouldn't have put out prior to marriage, either. There is nothing whatsoever in the Bible that would make any sane person believe sex between husband and wife is immoral. It's actually mandatory. It's not that she thinks it's immoral. That's just an excuse and not a very good one. The real deal is she thinks it's no longer necessary.


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## EvanderS (Jul 1, 2011)

I think there are layers to this. 

1) shutdown
2) Being too busy
3) I think she is young (under the age of 28?)
4) Christian Theology
5) ****ty role models
6) Nice guy enabling her behavior
7) she holds the power when she withholds
8) might not be able to communicate clearly

Question: Does she like to be held? Kissed? Touched?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

shutdown? She never started.
Too busy? She makes time for what she values
Too young? She's older now than before marriage and she found her sex drive then.
Christian theology....she'd be riding her husband like he was a stolen mule.
Crappy role models? Maybe
Nice guy enabling? Yes
She holds the power by withholding? Yep

9) Never truly liked sex, just pretended to in order to get a ring.


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## annagarret (Jun 12, 2011)

If it has to do with Christianity, shame on her church. In the book of Songs of Solomon, it openly describes marital sex, oral sex and masturbation as gifts from God. He is the creator of sex. Inside marriage there should be no shame , but the opposite, total openess. My Mother once told me, before marriage keep your legs closed, but after your married never close them.. 

Also try THE MARRIAGE BED.Com, it's a Christian Sex website


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## Colell (Jun 27, 2011)

@ scannerguard

She's in good health. She doesn't work out regularly, but she's still in very good shape. Sometimes she's still a a little self conscious about herself (not sure why). But then again, I've never met a woman who's never been a little self conscious. And I plan on exhausting every resource I can find before I give up on this.

@ everyone else

I agree to some extent that my nice guy behavior is enabling her, but I'm not sure it's a control thing. She's not like that. And we are still young (24). 
She's mentioned the moral thing more than once, and I think she regrets the premarital stuff. I think that guilt is the "moral" issue that she's having. But like I said, I haven't been able to really dig deep into this issue with her. She has to find out for herself what the problem is. Once she's found what's holding her back, then we can start moving forward. 

Also, to keep this conversation going. That part about the "nice guy behavior enabling her." I've always been a nice guy. I've always been considerate of other's feelings. I realize that this should only go so far, and that maybe I've crossed that line, but how can I possibly change that with her now? We've known each other for almost eight years now. I feel like if I suddenly become more assertive about our sex life, it will only turn her away more. How do I put my foot down without completely destroying everything? I feel like I have to start by trying to talk it out. Then if that doesn't work, then I can start dealing out ultimatums and the like. What do you guys think?


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## Katya (Jun 23, 2011)

Yes, TALK. Deeply, intimately and without fear. Make sure she knows that whatever she tells you will not change your feelings for her. I think that's the number one reason why married couples hold things back from each other. Even if it sounds unreasonable for her to think that (because you think she knows how much you love her, why would she fear?), time and time again, fear is the culprit.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

What motivation does she have to change? You will tolerate whatever she gives or doesn't give.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> What motivation does she have to change? You will tolerate whatever she gives or doesn't give.


I don't think in this case that "manning up" or getting cold is going to help. Based on my reading of the OP, he isn't going to force her, and he isn't going to leave. Any bright ideas?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> All of this is a reaction to your behavior OUTSIDE the bedroom. All of it. She is simply afraid to tell you what you are doing that is killing her desire. And she is simply creating the morality argument as a safe way to avoid an honest conversation about the TOTAL lack of desire she has.
> 
> Or she isn't consciously aware. But being too needy - and my guess is that you are somehow coming across that way - is a huge desire killer.
> 
> Until you deal with the "desire" killing behaviors - you will get nowhere.....


MEM, why are you so convinced that there is absolutely no moral or religious side to this? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I learned long ago to never, ever underestimate what someone can convince themselves to do in the name of scripture.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Colell said:


> Also, to keep this conversation going. That part about the "nice guy behavior enabling her." I've always been a nice guy. I've always been considerate of other's feelings. I realize that this should only go so far, and that maybe I've crossed that line, but how can I possibly change that with her now? We've known each other for almost eight years now. I feel like if I suddenly become more assertive about our sex life, it will only turn her away more. How do I put my foot down without completely destroying everything? I feel like I have to start by trying to talk it out. Then if that doesn't work, then I can start dealing out ultimatums and the like. What do you guys think?


Abandoning "nice guy" syndrome and becoming more assertive isn't about being a jerk or demanding more sex. It's about becoming more confident and socially adept with your wife and everyone else. Your wife will appreciate that and be more attracted to you. You shouldn't think that your wife being attracted enough to marry you means that you were perfect on that day and you shouldn't change to improve yourself. Women are often guilty of marrying potential and then working to change the man into their image of what that man should be.

Look at Athol Kay's MAP and put it into practice. Start working out to improve your health, looks, and increase your testosterone. This will make you more confident and assertive. Learn to recognize the fitness tests that your wife will throw your way and start passing them. Let your hobbies take you away from your wife regularly so that she can miss you while you're gone. Become more adept at initiating and continuing conversations in general.

This kind of improvement will result in your wife being more attracted to you and finding you sexier. If her reluctance to sex is really about her not finding you attractive, then this should work to increase her desire and your frequency. But, if her reluctance is really about her irrational world-view, then it may not work. But, you will be happier because your interactions with the rest of the world will be more positive. Also, if you choose to leave her, it will be easier for you to find another, higher quality partner.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

I hate to frame it in terms of "if he chooses to leave her". . .I guess the point of my exposition is the marriage becomes invalid without sexuality.

There is no "leaver and left". . .it just essentially dissolves into nothingness.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> I don't think in this case that "manning up" or getting cold is going to help. Based on my reading of the OP, he isn't going to force her, and he isn't going to leave. Any bright ideas?


He should learn to appreciate the wonderous joys of celibacy.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Scannerguard said:


> I hate to frame it in terms of "if he chooses to leave her". . .I guess the point of my exposition is the marriage becomes invalid without sexuality.
> 
> There is no "leaver and left". . .it just essentially dissolves into nothingness.


That's really just a philosophical distinction, not a practical one. The OP even mentioned ultimatums. Really, the most effective ultimatum that he has is the threat of divorce/annulment.


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## Colell (Jun 27, 2011)

I said I was a nice guy. I didn't say I was a fat, secluded loser who never leaves the house except to go the the office... To imply that is jumping to irrational judgement. I'm 24 years old, just received my bachelor's degree from a university where I was on the baseball team. I still work out five days a week and go out with my wife and our friends nearly every weekend. I'm athletic, good-looking, hard working, and very smart. Trust me, self confidence is not my issue. I'm sorry if this comes across as a little defensive and harsh, but I'm kind of tired of people assuming that I'm some sort of pushover. I love my wife. That's why I care about her feelings and emotions and try not to force her to do things she doesn't really want to do. And I'm not going to get a divorce after just one year. That'd just be pathetic. I don't quit that easily. I'm going to try talking to my wife in order to work through this rough patch. I'm going to explore why she feels the way she does. If anyone has any advice on how to approach that, I'd really appreciate it. 
Again, sorry for the harshness of this. I just feel that I should make myself clear so that I'm not spending hours reading replies that are completely useless to my situation.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Colell said:


> I'm going to try talking to my wife in order to work through this rough patch. I'm going to explore why she feels the way she does. If anyone has any advice on how to approach that, I'd really appreciate it.


Colell ~

I would simply approach her with honesty. Let her know how it makes you feel, that you expect a marriage is also a sexual partnership, and that you want to work on that aspect of your relationship.

Use sentences that have "I" in them, not "you". There are a lot of good tips out there on how to communicate effectively. Go research some of them, then plan the thoughts out in advance before you approach her.

Godspeed.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Colell said:


> I said I was a nice guy. I didn't say I was a fat, secluded loser who never leaves the house except to go the the office... To imply that is jumping to irrational judgement.


No one implied that. You're too defensive here.



Colell said:


> I'm 24 years old, just received my bachelor's degree from a university where I was on the baseball team. I still work out five days a week and go out with my wife and our friends nearly every weekend. I'm athletic, good-looking, hard working, and very smart. Trust me, self confidence is not my issue. I'm sorry if this comes across as a little defensive and harsh, but I'm kind of tired of people assuming that I'm some sort of pushover.


Obviously you need to tailor our advice to fit your situation. Most men don't exercise enough. Since you do, you are obviously free to ignore any advice to exercise more. If you are already an excellent conversationalist, then you are free to ignore advice to improve there as well. If you can't think of any ways to improve yourself, then self-improvement shouldn't be your tactic.

However, most of us can tell you that the only person you can change is yourself. If you change yourself, you can often change how your spouse interacts with you. If you rule out changing yourself, and instead focus solely on changing your spouse, then your success is much less likely. And that's not a judgment on your role. Your spouse could be 100% at fault in this situation. But, no matter how motivated you are, you can't force her to be willing to change her behaviors or attitudes. She has to want to change. And the best way to spur change in your spouse is to change yourself and thus, the relationship.

Also, there is nothing that precludes a good-looking, smart, athletic man from being a pushover. You yourself said that you thought being a nice-guy may contribute to your wife's attitude toward sex. You might want to explore the nice guy threads in the Men's Clubhouse forum on that issue.



Colell said:


> I love my wife. That's why I care about her feelings and emotions and try not to force her to do things she doesn't really want to do. And I'm not going to get a divorce after just one year. That'd just be pathetic. I don't quit that easily. I'm going to try talking to my wife in order to work through this rough patch. I'm going to explore why she feels the way she does. If anyone has any advice on how to approach that, I'd really appreciate it.


I commend you for being willing to work. And I didn't mention divorce to encourage you to bail without trying. But, women's psychology is a tricky thing. And if your wife believes that you will remain married to her regardless of how much sex she provides you, then you are depending on her charity for sex. And you don't want to do that. Destabilizing a relationship, even in subtle ways, can increase a woman's attraction for a man.



Colell said:


> Again, sorry for the harshness of this. I just feel that I should make myself clear so that I'm not spending hours reading replies that are completely useless to my situation.


Clarity is good. The more specifics you give, the more specific the advice you will receive.

My new, more specific advice, is to work to be less of a nice guy. Also, get your wife to a sex therapist for multiple sessions.


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## EvanderS (Jul 1, 2011)

Your wife is probably so staunch in holding onto her values because 

1) she is immature and repressed
2) she has probably received a lot of positive feedback about being chaste. see 6 human needs.
3) she is young

Looking at her specifically... she will get it all sorted out. Over time we grow more complex and we see deeper into our values.

Maybe she doesn't want to have children. Maybe she doesn't have any experience, internal dialogue. 

Maybe she doesn't have a sex drive. Just because she had a sneak peak before marriage doesn't mean that she has a sex drive. Actually.... now that I'm thinking about it... I doubt she has much of a sex drive. If she had a sex drive then she probably would have broken out of the christian ideal by now (like I did).

Who knows what she is going through? 

The real point of discussion is what is the groom going to do? 

I know from my own experience (my wife has been ill for 3 years) that I need consistent sexual activity (perhaps 1/month minimum) to keep me going + masturbation... otherwise my aggression becomes too high and I start hitting on others girls. I start to feel... unbalanced.

The groom needs to feel fulfilled and loved. If he isn't getting this then he has to look at all options. Perhaps he has to leave the marriage because this doesn't serve love... and it is destructive. Maybe she needs to be with someone who has a low sex drive and he needs to be with another. People make mistakes.

On the other side of the spectrum of possibilities... Perhaps he can gut it out until she is 28. If she doesn't shape up then there isn't any point in moving forward. (I think)

In the middle... Perhaps he can explore the idea of an open marriage... where he gets his needs met elsewhere. This can be a wide variety of things... so some research may have to be done.

Or maybe he can learn some seduction routines to see if they can help... maybe simply by flirting with other girls he can get some jealousy happening, competitiveness, or possessiveness.

Maybe make some friends who are more open about their sex lives so that she has different role models.

It's hard to know what the solution is. It depends on who she is, who you are, and what works.

Ultimately I think you have to weigh your options carefully and take a good, hard, honest look about what you need, what the timeline is that you are willing to devote to this project, and how you will know when enough is enough.

Attractive, hard working and intelligent men are in high demand. You certainty wouldn't have problems finding women. But you may be trading one set of problems for another. You may have to be patient and wade through a lot of crazy chicks to get to one that is good. There are a lot of good women in bad relationships... so it may take time for some of them to end their relationships so that you can be in a relationship.

It just gets messier from here on in (I'm afraid).


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## Katya (Jun 23, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> What motivation does she have to change? You will tolerate whatever she gives or doesn't give.


My goodness, some of you really see her as a heartless, cold, b****.
What motivation?
Perhaps something like she actually DOES love this man, is heartbroken that her heart, feelings and brain are not allowing her to enjoy intimacy with her husband of one year, and quite possibly is willing to do anything to change the way she feels.
I just don't get how some men automatically assume that all women with sexual dysfunctions are doing it maliciously.


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## Katya (Jun 23, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Colell ~
> 
> I would simply approach her with honesty. Let her know how it makes you feel, that you expect a marriage is also a sexual partnership, and that you want to work on that aspect of your relationship.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

Google imago dialogue. Quirky and slightly cheesy, but quite effective.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Katya said:


> My goodness, some of you really see her as a heartless, cold, b****.
> What motivation?
> Perhaps something like she actually DOES love this man, is heartbroken that her heart, feelings and brain are not allowing her to enjoy intimacy with her husband of one year, and quite possibly is willing to do anything to change the way she feels.
> I just don't get how some men automatically assume that all women with sexual dysfunctions are doing it maliciously.


Love in a married setting looks like putting the partner's needs before your own. This isn't what she's doing, is it? She's willing to do anything to change? Anything expect give the man what she knows he needs? Would you give him the same free pass if he paraded his great paying job before her only to quit the second the wedding ceremony was over, claiming that he feels supporting his wife was against his Christian teachings? Nobody with the ability to read can pick up a Bible and deduce that it says sex between married folks is wrong.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Nobody with the ability to read can pick up a Bible and deduce that it says sex between married folks is wrong.


For centuries, people were indeed able to pick up bibles and interpret that sex between married couples with something that should be done only to procreate, and otherwise only enough to ensure that the sins of adultery and fornication were avoided. It was certainly not suggested that it should be enjoyed or indulged in for pleasure. People managed to find that interpretation and stick to it for hundreds of years. Maybe they were wrong, but a hell of a lot of them were wrong together for a very long time.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

Colell said:


> I love my wife. That's why I care about her feelings and emotions and try not to force her to do things she doesn't really want to do. And I'm not going to get a divorce after just one year. That'd just be pathetic. I don't quit that easily. I'm going to try talking to my wife in order to work through this rough patch. I'm going to explore why she feels the way she does. If anyone has any advice on how to approach that, I'd really appreciate it.
> Again, sorry for the harshness of this. I just feel that I should make myself clear so that I'm not spending hours reading replies that are completely useless to my situation.


Hi Colell,

I have been married 7 years, and during that time I have learned more about relationships and communication with my wife by allowing her to teach me.

When you get through this with her and I am confident that you will, see how much about relationships and communication with your wife you can learn by allowing her to teach you. 

For right now, ask her open ended questions and let her do all the talking. Start off by repeating what she has already told you about her issue. Then ask the who, what, when, why, where, and how about the problem. Ask her to go back into her memory, ask her which memories of growing-up/childhood/being raised by parents and other trusted institutions made her start to feel "that" way about herself and others.

Resist the urge to try to solve her problem outright, at first. Women emotionally need to process through their emotions, especially when it comes to guilt feelings. She needs to feel safe and secure when doing this. It can be a time of discovery.

If you force yourself to watch woman's reality T.V., no matter how bad it may be, it can be great research. Women who have some emotional issue cry it out with a girlfriend and they go through all of this stuff. The girlfriend will usually listen and be supportive, even if the sobbing friend was wrong. Then the girlfriend will offer, "why don't you..." suggestions. When that process is repeated enough times for the sobbing woman to feel better about the situation, the other people and herself, then true logic can readily be accepted by her.

This scenario plays out successfully each time there is some kind of emotional issue that may be derailing me and my wife's relationship. Sex can be a huge thing that can be derailed and that type of communication works then too. 

The biggest difference between this type of therapeutic help being accepted from me by my wife and the same thing being offered by a girlfriend is that the girlfriend will most likely have more leeway to offer, "why don't you..." advice. I think that even the best of loving husband's need to tread lightly, because otherwise she will assume that you are, "just trying to fix her." Women generally do not like that. They desire to be heard, validated, and understood 1st, before they will be open to allowing you to really help them. 

Come to think of it, sex with one's wife is very much the same thing. A woman has to open up herself to invasion, possible pregnancy, and the possibility of being physically overpowered by her husband. Her opening up and addressing her feelings is not much different. If she feels heard, validated, appreciated, and understood 1st, then she will be much more willing to open up sexually. 

Most likely, for her to open up sexually (for both of your sake), this trust/communication process, the christian & sexual counseling, etc., will need to be well in affect. She will probably need to be healed enough emotionally to be your sex partner. But, can you think of a greater thing you can do with your life right now? You have just recently committed yourself to her in marriage. You get the chance to be a REAL man for her. Good looks, career, and athleticism are temporal. Intimacy in an  intimate marriage can be for a lifetime. The link to the article is geared toward helping husbands build and/or restore intimacy in their marriages. 

It takes, bravery, courage, steadfastness, determination, integrity, honor-ability, perseverance, vision, daring to love someone other than yourself, and intestinal fortitude to build a successful, thriving marriage as a husband. 

Guess what! You can look back at this difficult time in both your lives and feel proud of what the two-of-you accomplished together.

I hope that this helps you in your efforts to help your wife and help the two-of-you build that intimate marriage you hoped to have, while standing at the alter together.


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## marriedfor27years (Oct 29, 2009)

run, people dont change much. think about living this way for the next 30 years. dont have kids.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Sawney Beane said:


> MEM, why are you so convinced that there is absolutely no moral or religious side to this? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I learned long ago to never, ever underestimate what someone can convince themselves to do in the name of scripture.


Boy do I ever agree with this comment ! Listen, take it from one who was somewhat repressed (but had the drive all along) and had the NICE GUY Passive husband. 

*NOT *, I repeat NOT a good mixture for a young wife struggling with "sexual issues" regarding religion. If she is lower drive on top of this, even more of a mountain to climb. 

If my husband manned up more , It surely would have helped, or I had more of a secular sexual education- to open my eyes & question all of the "our flesh is sinful" stuff pounded into my head sitting in the church pew. Unfortunelty for me, I had to ditch the faith to come into the Freedom . 

This stuff that Rough Patch Sewing is talking about on here, (also wish I had caught your deleted post PHTlump! )..... about how sinful premarital sex is and we need all this forgiveness...speaking from MY OWN EXPERIENCE-- this right here is what messed *ME* up ! 

Like we literally deserve Hell for a little premarital pleasure. We even waited for intercourse & I still struggled because I LUSTED, he LUSTED, Oh what SIN! Always a demon on my back, hindering my enjoyment & freedom. Let me tell you all something , if you take your faith seriously, you can NOT turn a freaking switch on your wedding night to shut this out of your mind . It folllows many, probably more the "thinker" types -like me. It was not healthy. 

The sad thing is -- deep down I couldn't understand what the he** the fuss was all about. But could I admit that outright to a christian brother or sister - NO! Bring on the judgement, the warnings. 

I was on that Marragiebed.com site & found this thread basically condemning what WE DID & suggesting anyone who has SEX outside of marraige or a little premarital fun will have "problems" in marraige. (Maybe your wife has heard this type of talk) -- This REALLY annoyed my senses a great deal so I thought I would give my story The Marriage Bed • Login I explained my repressed struggle through the years with sex and how NOW I am FREE from this, I was honest in admitting that I do NOT regret touching each other in our youth -before marraige and I WOULD DO IT AGAIN. ..... 

How we felt GOOD before our GOd for waiting, our boundaries, and you know-- they still Trampled ME (although I did expect this, after all, LUST is evil anywhere outside of marraige), we are even instructed it is better to pluck an EYE out than burn in a fiery hell. 

So basically, they took something that we seen as beautiful AND A NATURAL EXPRESSION OF LOVE BETWEEN 2 PEOPLE and they trampled it underfoot, called me sinful, I needed to repent. What a pure kill joy "some" christians can be. I know that is why I struggled for many many years. 

Do not underestimate the workings of the mind when religion gets ahold of it.

Very telling book here : Amazon.com: The Unauthorized Guide to Sex and Church: Carmen Renee Berry: Books Ironicaly written by a Christian no less, she even says this on the back cover :


> " I was taught 2 contradictory things about sex. First, it is dirty, Second, I should save it for the one I love. No clearer statement could be made about the dichotomy presented to todays' Christians".


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> For centuries, people were indeed able to pick up bibles and interpret that sex between married couples with something that should be done only to procreate, and otherwise only enough to ensure that the sins of adultery and fornication were avoided. It was certainly not suggested that it should be enjoyed or indulged in for pleasure. People managed to find that interpretation and stick to it for hundreds of years. Maybe they were wrong, but a hell of a lot of them were wrong together for a very long time.


Which chapter and verse?


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Which chapter and verse?


Here is something of the history that I think Sawney may have been referring to: Birth Control


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

If a woman doesn't wish to have sex with her husband, there are thousands of excuses out there. I guess one is as good as the next.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> Which chapter and verse?


Don't know, don't care.

It's probably in the same section that says catholics and protestants have to beat f*ck out of one another and commit murder about it.

Before anyone says anything, I spent two six-month tours in Ulster getting in between the two groups and trying to prevent them murdering one another in the name of the "true religion" (among other things). 

The short answer is the hierarchy tells them this is the case and that's good enough. If people can wind themselves up to commit mass murder over it, then not shagging their partner is no biggie.


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## Jadegreen (Apr 4, 2011)

Colell;

you sound sincere, and I doubt you will give up so soon. At the same time, it sounds like your wife feels very conflicted about sexuality itself. It can be very exciting to be in a relationship which promises sexuality, but which does not require delivery. It might have felt very safe when you were engaged. Now that you are married, the safety of the chastity enforced by waiting until marriage is gone, and so a new door needs to be presented to protect her (bit of amateur psychoanalysis for you). I would not be too serious about the scriptures - it sounds like some knowledgeable people here suspect there is not a strong foundation for her fears. 

I wonder about something else: does she have good role models for being sexual and a good, adult, woman and a wife? What are her parents like? Is it possible to talk with her father, very generally, about what his beliefs are? (without mentioning your actual frustration or you will lose the trust of your wife). You might get an insight about what your wife thinks men think about marriage and sex. Or talk with your wife about what her image is of a someone she admires who she can also see is likely sexual and happily married, if she is open to that kind of conversation.

I am suspecting that she has not found a way to be sexual. If so, you might help her by giving her opportunities to come to grips with this. Women will dress very sexily and prettily for each other. Can you invite her to a fancy dress ball, an evening affair where she will need to dress up? Do you have a mutual girlfriend who knows how to do this? Can you give her some modest budget to go get a good dress or a nice pair of shoes? Or can you even accompany her? In a good shop, the sales women will take cues from the husband about what kind of dress he would like to buy for his wife, and without, of course, making her unhappy, they will bring selections which please both parties. You might focus on a pretty color that makes her eyes gorgeous, or something that has a slit on the skirt of the leg if she feels good about her legs, or some higher heels. This kind of event will feel safe to her, because it is semi-public, and if the saleswomen are good, she will feel like the process is "approved". if that is the case, she will not feel conflicted about buying something that shows cleavage or is enticing. If it is a church event, or a Christian related even, like a pop concert, she may be able to bring all those pieces together - being pretty, being good, being a wife, and being Christian. I am not saying that this dressing up is for you - it is for her, for her self-image of herself as a wife. It is for her to practice. 

Meanwhile, you need to meet your needs so you can be patient. To help, can you set a timeline, like 6 months, and start tracking your progress with her? Set a goal that would define success for you. To start, try and recreate one of the successful moments you had, and if it is not as successful, just cuddle and remember the last one. See what she remembers - and take note! Maybe it was the time of day, or the privacy, or being away... whatever it was. You can also just try touching her - maybe kiss her hand, hold it to your chest when you are in bed, and tell her how much you love her. Being physical is obviously important to you, so keep being present with her. 

A book I am reading right now focuses on the brain as the key to seduction - and it also emphasizes the way women's desire is much more slow-moving than men's. Women's desires build up gradually and go back down gradually - over the course of hours or even days. So if you think about it this way, maybe making her breakfast today is foreplay for tomorrow! It is crazy to think this way, but being a woman, I know that my husband's invitations to come to the bedroom "now" are crazy to me. It is like trying to jump in a semi and roar out to 90 miles an hour as soon as you put the key in the ignition. It is NOT going to happen and my typical response is "not now, can't you see I'm in the middle of...." This is not working for either of us. So I'm working on a timing problem - maybe this is an issue for you, too. 

One last word on my hunch. Women are taught to be indirect. Seeing the nude male body can be very uncomfortable - not because it is present, but because looking directly, and having the feelings that go along with looking, are uncomfortable. As far as I get it, men relish looking and it is a motivation to action. Women are taught not to. She may find it very uncomfortable to see you naked, which might make her feel unsure and withdraw. if so, think of ways to help this - maybe bathe together, or shower, or if you lie in bed together, practice being nude. You might have to start with partial nudity - maybe both of you shirtless. Women feel as insecure about their breast size and shape as men do about their penis length, so just touching her and exploring, without intention to go further, may help her get comfortable with exploring your body, on her terms, in her own speed. You might play a game, like comparing nipples or pects. Or you might actually play a game, like checkers, in bed where you have plenty of opportunity to look at each other shirtless. This sounds funny, even as I write this. Not sure. 

Anyways, hope it helps. keep working on it. sounds like you both love each other a lot.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

Colell said:


> I love my wife. That's why I care about her feelings and emotions and try not to force her to do things she doesn't really want to do. And I'm not going to get a divorce after just one year. That'd just be pathetic. I don't quit that easily. I'm going to try talking to my wife in order to work through this rough patch. I'm going to explore why she feels the way she does. If anyone has any advice on how to approach that, I'd really appreciate it.
> Again, sorry for the harshness of this. I just feel that I should make myself clear so that I'm not spending hours reading replies that are completely useless to my situation.





Colell said:


> I agree to some extent that my nice guy behavior is enabling her, but I'm not sure it's a control thing. She's not like that. And we are still young (24).
> She's mentioned the moral thing more than once, and I think she regrets the premarital stuff. I think that guilt is the "moral" issue that she's having. But like I said, I haven't been able to really dig deep into this issue with her. She has to find out for herself what the problem is. Once she's found what's holding her back, then we can start moving forward.
> 
> Also, to keep this conversation going. That part about the "nice guy behavior enabling her." I've always been a nice guy. I've always been considerate of other's feelings. I realize that this should only go so far, and that maybe I've crossed that line, but how can I possibly change that with her now? We've known each other for almost eight years now. I feel like if I suddenly become more assertive about our sex life, it will only turn her away more. How do I put my foot down without completely destroying everything? I feel like I have to start by trying to talk it out. Then if that doesn't work, then I can start dealing out ultimatums and the like. What do you guys think?


Hi Colell,

I really want to help you out based on what you have asked for. 

I think that one angle concerning finding out why your wife persists to feel the way she feels about sex, that needs to be addressed is this: did her so called Christian friends, clergy, and private school administrators give her condemning judgement? If they are hypocritical Christians (Yes, some Christians actually read their bibles and know not to be hypocrites). This may be something that you can gently ask her. 

Bear this in mind: Christians are supposed to point out a perceived error in other Christians with loving intentions for the person only if they (those addressing the other Christian's sin) are not being hypocrites and have all the facts straight (judge lest you be judged, and do not point out the sin in others when you are already overpowered by great sin in your own life, Matt 7:1-5) and care enough for people to share the good news of Jesus' atoning sacrifice for sin. 

Any hypocritical, and condemnation of a fellow Christian concerning any sin, including pre-marital sex, needs to be handled with love and understanding. There are many scriptures to back up these statements (John 8:1-11 being such a verse) and I can post many of them if they are needed. I believe that it is the work of God/the Holy Spirit that makes people right and guilt free before Him (Titus 3:5). 

If the Christian refuses repeatedly to repent from doing the sin or get help for the sin, then there are steps for dismissal from the church, only after repeated attempts by those who have all the facts and church leadership to temporarily remove the unrepentant christian (2 Thessalonians 3:6-16, 1 Thess 4:10-12, 1 Thess 5:14, 2 Thess 3:4, 2 Thess 3:10, 1 Cor 5:1-9). There is the Biblical way this is supposed to be done in which if done right hopefully the christian can be re-accepted into the church and then there is the typical way that it is done. Egos and "Holier than Thou" attitudes are what is to blame for the misuse of these scriptures. 


However, you guys got married so this is not a problem for her. Sometimes the "Guilt trips" from christians last and they should not last. This is stuff that she needs to hear as a Christian to help her figure out the truth from error in her own feelings. In fact many people have been hurt by Christians in this way and it should not be that way. Jesus never condoned sin, but he gave grace and love and admonished to stop the sin. The only time when Jesus is really harsh is when the religious leaders of his day were being hypocrites.

As far as the "Nice Guy" vs. "Man Up" argument. Just be yourself, if you are a nice guy be that. That is the sincere honest thing to do. Some people are sincerely harsh, mean, and critical and will have personal lives that reflect that. Allowing the pressure from other people or the desire to get respect through "duress-means" by "manning-up" is insincere and manipulative. If you are sincerely a caring, and loving person, not an insecure nice guy, then that is great!


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## piqued (Mar 25, 2010)

Katya said:


> My goodness, some of you really see her as a heartless, cold, b****.
> What motivation?
> Perhaps something like she actually DOES love this man, is heartbroken that her heart, feelings and brain are not allowing her to enjoy intimacy with her husband of one year, and quite possibly is willing to do anything to change the way she feels.
> I just don't get how some men automatically assume that all women with sexual dysfunctions are doing it maliciously.


hate to break it to you, but I've only heard one poster suggest it was malicious in the entire thread. I've heard both men and women suggest that since her behavior is being enabled she has no motivation to change, regardless of whether or not she "wants" to.

OP, I just don't think her religion really has anything to do with this. There is such an overwhelming consensus throughout Christian faiths that sex between a husband and wife is not only OK, but it's necessary, appropriate, and a sin NOT to do it at each others beckon call. Her problem is something else.

1. doesn't like sex
2. doesn't llike sex with you
3. feels overly pressured by you and "morality" is a great equalizer in conversation, especially since you admit you and her aren't on the same spiritual level
4. guilt over premarital sex OR SOMETHING ELSE
5. repressive behavior because of prior abuse. You mentioned she had a religous mother but a more worldly father and brothers. Not saying any abuse occurred, but that is a familiar scenario.

When not changing doesn't cost her anything then the likelihood of her changing is very low.

good luck.


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## Scannerguard (Jan 26, 2010)

> Like we literally deserve Hell for a little premarital pleasure. We even waited for intercourse & I still struggled because I LUSTED, he LUSTED, Oh what SIN! Always a demon on my back, hindering my enjoyment & freedom. Let me tell you all something , if you take your faith seriously, you can NOT turn a freaking switch on your wedding night to shut this out of your mind . It folllows many, probably more the "thinker" types -like me. It was not healthy.
> 
> The sad thing is -- deep down I couldn't understand what the he** the fuss was all about. But could I admit that outright to a christian brother or sister - NO! Bring on the judgement, the warnings.


Great movie, SimplyAmorous. . ._The Devil's Advocate_. . .Al Pacino plays a great Devil.

He tempts teh main character more than a few times in the movie.

I like the one line where the Devil is making his case against God. 

He basically makes the point you make. . .God gives you this drive. . .you can look, but you can't touch. . .you can smell, but you can't taste.

He then screams,

*GOD IS A SADIST!!!!!*

You are taken aback as the viewer of the movie at the hatred that comes out in his voice.

Isn't that what we all secretly think though as flawed mortals? Isn't that a great Devil-dialogue on your shoulder?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I never seen that movie Scanner, but I love the title! It is one of my favotite past times, playing devils' advocate ! Have to put this on my Netflix when I start renting again, I cancelled for the summer.


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## Rough Patch Sewing (Apr 18, 2011)

Colell,

Any updates, questions, concerns? I am not sure how often you check this, but just trying to encourage anything that could be useful to you or those interested in helping you.


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## Colell (Jun 27, 2011)

Nothing to update with yet. I'm just kind of sitting back and taking in everyone's opinions. I've begun reading "His Needs, Her Needs." I'm about half way though and learning a lot about myself and my wife as well. It's given me a lot of things to think about. After reading what I have, I may try a couple of different things before I resort to the whole discussion thing. 

Thanks for your help everyone. I really appreciate it.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Rough Patch Sewing said:


> As far as the "Nice Guy" vs. "Man Up" argument. Just be yourself, if you are a nice guy be that. That is the sincere honest thing to do. Some people are sincerely harsh, mean, and critical and will have personal lives that reflect that. Allowing the pressure from other people or the desire to get respect through "duress-means" by "manning-up" is insincere and manipulative. If you are sincerely a caring, and loving person, not an insecure nice guy, then that is great!


I think you misunderstand the man up advice. If a man is naturally a jerk, I would not advise him to just be himself. His wife needs for him to be better than that. Similarly, if a man is naturally a "nice guy", meaning too beta, letting his wife lead him and avoiding conflict rather than being the assertive man that most women naturally crave, I think it's just as irresponsible to advise that man not to change.

Manning up means being a man that is more attractive to women. It's not coercive or manipulative.


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## weR2 (Jul 9, 2011)

You may be in a very difficult situation if religious morals/ideals are involved. Equally so if her younger upbringing has influenced her so dramatically as to affect her marriage. WARNING: Do not even consider having children under these circumstances! Unless you want to torture yourself, your wife, and the offspring both mentally and spiritually. This similar situation I have experience with a previous wife, back then we did not have forums to discuss and ponder these things.

I know form experience the hold that some religious pastors can have on their congregation. Communication and understanding are the key to growth. When her father gave her to you on the altar, he should have given her to you by releasing his "hold" on her. He trusted you enough that you will grow with her properly for the rest of your lives. And you and her promised each other to walk through life side by side. If she is not ready to walk alongside of you and grow with you, well then..... But the opposite is true then, that you need to walk alongside of her and grow with her.

This is where the communication and understanding comes in, maybe you each need to set down and at least make some short term goals or "milestones" to be sure that you are what each other expects out of this life here on earth. These goals should not only include your individual goals, but also your goals as a married couple. Personally, I think that those goals should include physical, mental, and spiritual goals. After you have each made these goals, set down and compare. If you can think that far ahead it would be best to have long term goals as well, like where do want to be when you retire.

Good Luck! Keep us posted.


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## Colell (Jun 27, 2011)

Just an update for anyone who cares...

I was going to talk with my wife about this whole thing, but then she got a promotion at work... which means a lot more stress and responsibility for another couple weeks... so I think I'll put it off a little longer. I just think adding more stress would be like throwing gasoline on a fire. I've also been doing my research and have a couple of things I want to try myself before forcing a very awkward conversation. 

On a side note. Since the her whole work thing began, the resentment hasn't been as bad, but it's still there. We've been intimate a couple of times, which is more than normal. But it always comes on her terms. Every time I try any sort of seduction, she shoots me down. But she'll just show up at some random time and want sex. I don't know what gets her in the mood, and she doesn't seem to know (or won't tell me). Now I go along with it because it's all I can get, but afterwards I feel a little like "what the hell?". Reflecting back on it, the whole situation almost makes me mad because, when I want sex, she won't give me the time of day. But when she wants sex, God help me if I turn her down. She'll be all devastated and everything. But when I get rejected, she'll be upset if I'm upset. Does anyone else think this is kind of a crock? Any advice on how to deal with it until the big talk?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*The big talk*

Colell,
Truly there are only 2 types of "big talk". One is consequence based, the other is feeling based. 

The feeling based talk is very destructive because she already knows how you feel, and despite knowing this is eating you up, she is very comfortable starving you of sex. Telling her you feel bad actually makes you seem "weak". I am not saying that is true, I am telling you how she will perceive it. 

The consequence based talk is equally bad. It basically comes down to some flavor of "if this doesn't change I don't see the marriage working". It is a very "male" centric type of discussion. Because from one male to another in say a normal friendship that approach is normal and understood to be how we do things. 

Females on the other hand have a much more powerful, and yet much more subtle form of communication. It is based primarily on two things:
- Highly skilled and controlled use of body language AND
- A steady stream of "prioritization" messages that let you know just how important YOU and your feelings are to THEM. 

I will give you some context and then you have to decide for yourself whether you think I am credible. 

Married 21 years together 22+ years. Very happily married to 120 pounds of hellcat. Great sex life - despite my much higher drive. We "worked it out" and have a compromise we are both actively happy with. That said, we have had some challenges along the way - nothing over the top like infidelity or physical abuse. Instead we have had some issues pertaining to how highly we prioritize each other. And we have amicably worked those out because I learned how to communicate with a woman the way women communicate with each other. 

Let me drop you into her shoes for a moment. Lets say that you tell her you love her, do lots of nice things for her in all those great love languages: you work hard to provide, you do extra acts of service, you frequently compliment her. Basically in womanspeak that all screams: "I am perfectly happy with how you are treating me". 

Then suddenly you lay this heavy talk on her about how rejected you feel. 

Her reaction: She loses a lot of respect for you. Because ultimately she sees you as this guy who is constantly seeking her approval even though you BOTH know, that your needs, your happiness are not important to her. So she sees this as: Well he keeps loving me even though he hates what I am doing to him. And that seems weak and needy. 

Go read my post on the thermostat. Deprioritize her. If that doesn't produce a positive reaction you are with someone who doesn't even care if you love her. And THAT is something you need to know. If it does produce a positive reaction then find a temperature setting that works for both of you. 

Right now, she is immersing in work and you are about to get completely deprioritized. Is that really acceptable to you for the rest of your life?



















Colell said:


> Just an update for anyone who cares...
> 
> I was going to talk with my wife about this whole thing, but then she got a promotion at work... which means a lot more stress and responsibility for another couple weeks... so I think I'll put it off a little longer. I just think adding more stress would be like throwing gasoline on a fire. I've also been doing my research and have a couple of things I want to try myself before forcing a very awkward conversation.
> 
> On a side note. Since the her whole work thing began, the resentment hasn't been as bad, but it's still there. We've been intimate a couple of times, which is more than normal. But it always comes on her terms. Every time I try any sort of seduction, she shoots me down. But she'll just show up at some random time and want sex. I don't know what gets her in the mood, and she doesn't seem to know (or won't tell me). Now I go along with it because it's all I can get, but afterwards I feel a little like "what the hell?". Reflecting back on it, the whole situation almost makes me mad because, when I want sex, she won't give me the time of day. But when she wants sex, God help me if I turn her down. She'll be all devastated and everything. But when I get rejected, she'll be upset if I'm upset. Does anyone else think this is kind of a crock? Any advice on how to deal with it until the big talk?


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## Lea2407 (Jul 14, 2011)

Colell,

I honestly sympathize with you, or at least my husband does. Your wife sounds a lot like I was when my husband and I married. We were high school sweethearts and both technically saved ourselves for marriage, even though we did fool around before then. I was very active in my church and had definite moral issues with sex before marriage. My husband went to the same church but didn't have the issues I had. 

Almost everything you described about your wife and current situation, my husband and I dealt with. I definitely had some guilt for fooling around before marriage, but for some reason the guilt intensified after I was married. You just assume that all of those years of being told that sex is wrong and shameful will disappear when you get married, but they don't. In some cases, and I have no idea why this is, but I think they get worse. 

My husband was just like you. He was understanding and patient, but I could see how much it was driving him crazy, which in turn made me feel even worse. I absolutely hated rejecting him, but it was honestly like there was some kind of block in my mind that I couldn't get past. It wasn't like I didn't want to have a great sex life either. There was always just something holding me back. Needless to say, we had more than a few fights that ended with me in tears and him wanting to punch something.

I truly feel bad for you, because I know how much my husband suffered, but I also feel horrible for your wife, since she's probably a volcano of conflicting emotions right now. There's probably times that you think she's crazy, but keep in mind that she probably sees herself in a much worse way than you ever could. 

I wish that I could tell you that there is some magical solution to this problem, but there really isn't. It took me years to really sort out all of my issues, and I've still probably got more to do and we've been married for 9 years. 

Sorry that this became so lengthy, I just wanted to let you know that she can overcome this. I had severe issues with not only sex but anything sexual including masturbation, porn, etc. However, now, after a lot of time and effort, I'm finally an extremely sexual person that's willing to try new things and there's no guilt or shame to hold me back. 

The best thing you can do is give her time and not make her feel bad about feelings she can't help. Now, that doesn't mean that you have to ignore your feelings. You just need to make sure that she's willing to actually work on her issues and wants to get better. I hope you both can work through this, and I hope she knows how great she can feel if she just lets go. 

Good luck and keep everyone updated!


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

*Re: The big talk*



MEM11363 said:


> Colell,
> Go read my post on the thermostat. Deprioritize her. If that doesn't produce a positive reaction you are with someone who doesn't even care if you love her.


Or you're with someone who 
a) doesn't understand this game;
b) interprets you deprioritising as being an insensitive, uncaring arsewipe who uses emotional blackmail to get his own way.

YMMV.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: The big talk*

SB,
First of all lets start with some core "stuff". Over time love really IS a choice. At least it is if you even a moderate amount of self esteem. Because if you do, a BIG factor in how you feel about your partner is directly connected to how they TREAT you. And if they clearly don't love you, clearly don't care about your need to feel loved, which for a man means some level of sexual connection, why would you choose to love them. 

There are 4 buckets in every relationship. 

Bucket 1: How you feel about the person independent of their "behavior". Basically this is how you feel about what they "are": looks, intelligence, indepdendence, strength, sense of humor, good with children, etc. 

Bucket 2: How you feel about the way they treat YOU. Do they actually love you in the way you NEED to be loved? Do they prioritize you. How do they handle conflict with you? With patience and consideration, or anger and intimidation?

Buckets 3 and 4 are their piece of the puzzle towards you. How do they feel about what you "are", and how do they feel about how you treat THEM?

I strenuously object to having my well thought out "approach" to an indifferent partner described as a "game". It isn't a game, it is a mental health strategy for dealing with a cold, uncaring partner. And the reason for that is simple. If you choose to gradually love someone less and they don't get their act together, one day you wake up and realize you have accepted that they don't love you. That you really don't/can't love someone who is unable/unwilling to love and care for you and that you are "done". 

Recall I described my "general" interaction pattern as emulating that of the most powerful creatures on earth - women. Well that includes how healthy women deal with an "incompatible" partner. They gradually detach and then one day they "walk away". If your partner is only motivated to consider your feelings when you actually demonstrate the willingness to "end it" by "ending it", they are a bad partner. Because almost everyone recognizes a steady, relentless pattern of detachment/being deprioritized by a partner. 

The core question is do they respect you enough to believe that you have the strength to leave them and their indifference? And when the answer is NO, you should leave. If the answer is YES, you will get a positive reaction long before you hit the door. 








Sawney Beane said:


> Or you're with someone who
> a) doesn't understand this game;
> b) interprets you deprioritising as being an insensitive, uncaring arsewipe who uses emotional blackmail to get his own way.
> 
> YMMV.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

*Re: The big talk*



MEM11363 said:


> The core question is do they respect you enough to believe that you have the strength to leave them and their indifference? And when the answer is NO, you should leave. If the answer is YES, you will get a positive reaction long before you hit the door.


Which frames my question for Cole,

I know you are focused on saving your marriage. Absolutely appreciate that.

But ... different focus ...

What would it take for you to choose to end it?

What is it that she would need to do, or not do, that makes you choose to put a stop to providing unconditional love, support, and understanding?

What exactly makes this woman worthy of your self-sacrifice?

Seriously. Will you de-prioritize yourself and your sexuality for this woman ... for the rest of your life?

What is more important in your mind, supporting your sense of self, or doing what is necessary to preserve hers?

I'm not telling you to get divorced. I'm telling you that you need to think differently about what you want YOUR marriage to be, and whether or not this woman wants the same from marriage that you do.

Sounds like you fell into marriage, moreso than actually planned together what your marriage would be. Nothing wrong with that, it's what most folks do ... but it's flawed.


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## Colell (Jun 27, 2011)

*Re: The big talk*



Deejo said:


> What would it take for you to choose to end it?
> 
> What is it that she would need to do, or not do, that makes you choose to put a stop to providing unconditional love, support, and understanding?
> 
> What exactly makes this woman worthy of your self-sacrifice?


Like I said before, I've been doing my research (books, articles, other forums, etc) and something that I keep coming across is that many women will "change" themselves during the relationship in order to hold onto the guy, with a complete reversal as soon as they're married. Now, we've been married for just under a year, but we've been together for over seven years. During the course of seven years together, you'd think I would have seen her "real" side, but maybe I didn't. 

To answer your question, if I talk to her about what she REALLY wants in our marriage and she's unwilling to work to meet me half way, I'm out. There's no logical reason to work at something when your partner has no interest in pulling her weight. 

MEM is right, she is very high on my list of priorities and I don't seem to be anywhere near the top of hers. If she's unwilling to move me higher on the list, then there's no reason to keep up the charade. I don't think me de-prioritizing her will get us anywhere though. She'll just think I'm a jerk. I've tried everything I can think of, and it's just time to attack it head-on. The conversation, initially, won't be emotional or consequential, it will be informational. I just want to know where I lie on that list of priorities and if she's seriously willing to make some changes. If not - done.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

*Re: The big talk*



MEM11363 said:


> SB,
> First of all lets start with some core "stuff". Over time love really IS a choice. At least it is if you even a moderate amount of self esteem. Because if you do, a BIG factor in how you feel about your partner is directly connected to how they TREAT you. And if they clearly don't love you, clearly don't care about your need to feel loved, which for a man means some level of sexual connection, why would you choose to love them.


THIS is totally predicated on understanding that love = sexual connection. The evidence of these pages is that a lot of people haven’t been told this, or, if they have, think it’s a crock. If someone doesn’t think that sex has any connection to love, they aren’t going to get that you don’t feel loved if you don’t get laid! Just because YOU think it's important, they don't have to buy in. Think of a die-hard follower of a sports club - it's his life. Does his wife g.a.s.? Not necessarily, and why would she? 



> There are 4 buckets in every relationship.
> 
> Bucket 1: How you feel about the person independent of their "behavior". Basically this is how you feel about what they "are": looks, intelligence, indepdendence, strength, sense of humor, good with children, etc.
> 
> ...


With you so far. Your method seems to deal entirely with 1 and 2, and assumes that the person holding 3 and 4 thinks exactly the same way you do. 



> I strenuously object to having my well thought out "approach" to an indifferent partner described as a "game".


Hold your water. Far bigger things that this, put forward by far more important people than you, have been called “games” before now, and they didn’t bend themselves out of shape.



> It isn't a game, it is a mental health strategy for dealing with a cold, uncaring partner. And the reason for that is simple. If you choose to gradually love someone less and they don't get their act together, one day you wake up and realize you have accepted that they don't love you. That you really don't/can't love someone who is unable/unwilling to love and care for you and that you are "done".


They aren’t necessarily cold and uncaring – they just have different priorities to you, and don’t understand that by withdrawing you expect them to make YOUR priorities theirs. I just don’t see where this damascene enlightenment comes from. “Oh wow, they’re not being nice to me because I’m not screwing them! I could take or leave sex, but now it’s suddenly become uber-important!” Sorry, I just don’t see it.



> Recall I described my "general" interaction pattern as emulating that of the most powerful creatures on earth - women. Well that includes how healthy women deal with an "incompatible" partner. They gradually detach and then one day they "walk away". If your partner is only motivated to consider your feelings when you actually demonstrate the willingness to "end it" by "ending it", they are a bad partner. Because almost everyone recognizes a steady, relentless pattern of detachment/being deprioritized by a partner.
> 
> The core question is do they respect you enough to believe that you have the strength to leave them and their indifference?


Only if they realise that YOU actually see it as indifference and something that’s vital that they have to change their ways on. Otherwise, it's easily put down to wind, p*ss and petulance. When women behave like this, I've heard it described here as resentment, and that is almost universally seen as a "bad thing". Why is this different? 


> And when the answer is NO, you should leave. If the answer is YES, you will get a positive reaction long before you hit the door.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Let's be clear ...

Deprioritizing her does not equal you becoming an insensitive douche bag, sniping at her or openly ignoring her.
That simply isn't what I'm referring to, nor is MEM.

She has already deprioritized you ... do you think she is a jerk? You don't indicate that. You aren't happy. But importantly?
You aren't UNHAPPY enough to directly demonstrate your displeasure with her in terms of the relationship. But you indicate that you believe she would 
immediately do so with you, were you take such steps. That in itself should tell you something.

It is simply a matter of where your 'focus' lies. Your focus is on her, making her happy, behaving in a manner you 
hope she will approve of, and in turn she will love and desire you for. Nothing wrong with that, unless and until the 
behavior is not yielding love and desire. If that is the case, trying harder to win her approval and affection will chase her further away.

Deprioritizing her simply means that you make your focus more internal ... on you and what you want, not necessarily
what she isn't providing for you. It's about meeting your own needs, instead of counting on her to meet them, and being
disappointed when she doesn't. 

Does that make sense?

It is about NOT rewarding behavior on her part that makes you feel like crap.
She KNOWS what is wrong. She KNOWS what is bothering you ... but from her perspective there 
is no discomfort. You ARE continuing to meeting her needs.

This isn't about playing petty games. It's about recognizing imbalance, and re-establishing balance.
And in the doing you may come to find out that she does truly love and respect you, or ... it's lip-service.

Deprioritizing her means that you cater to yourself, your own sense of worth and self-esteem, at least as much as, if 
not more than you do to her.

Check out this thread. Results and mileage may vary, but nobody is pulling this stuff out of thin air.

What I've learned in the past year - A good news story


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: The big talk*

Colell,
This is the one area where I really hope you can benefit from my experience. Prioritization and jerkiness MUST be completely uncoupled. Let me explain what I mean by that with a very simple example. 

It is totally jerky to be sitting on the couch with someone and rebuff their attempt to sit next to you or converse with you. 

It is not at all jerky to tell someone that you have plans to go out with your male friends on a regular basis to a non-bar, non-female pickup environment to pursue an activity you like. And it is non-jerky to steadily ramp up that set of activities to the point where your partner is ASKING you to spend more time together. 

In parallel to that it is very non-jerky to go into a pure 50-50 mode. She picked the tv show last night, you pick it tonight. She picked the place you went out last time, you pick it this time. She was rude/inconsiderate and is attempting to "jump over" her bad behavior and pretend nothing happened and you are firm that normal conversation has ended until she acknowledges that she behaved badly. 

And you are not obligated to say ILY if you aren't feeling loved yourself. In fact I think you should not say ILY when someone is ignoring your core need to feel loved and desired. 

These are about doing LESS for her. Not about being rude, or angry or difficult. At a certain point you WILL feel detached. You will be much more at peace with the idea that you have conveyed your growing indifference to her through your ACTIONS for an extended period and that she ignored your pattern. And at that point she can't really claim to be surprised when you tell her it is over. Well she can claim it, but she will not be speaking truthfully. 

On a separate but related note, MANY men believe their wife wants a steady diet of "sweet". Totally untrue. Your W wants an unpredicable mix of sweet and spicy. And the spicy is you playfully rough housing with her. Or teasing her about some of her quirks. Or being much more dominant in bed. 

And all of that stuff - the spicy stuff - done properly - makes her respect and love you MORE. 





Colell said:


> Like I said before, I've been doing my research (books, articles, other forums, etc) and something that I keep coming across is that many women will "change" themselves during the relationship in order to hold onto the guy, with a complete reversal as soon as they're married. Now, we've been married for just under a year, but we've been together for over seven years. During the course of seven years together, you'd think I would have seen her "real" side, but maybe I didn't.
> 
> To answer your question, if I talk to her about what she REALLY wants in our marriage and she's unwilling to work to meet me half way, I'm out. There's no logical reason to work at something when your partner has no interest in pulling her weight.
> 
> MEM is right, she is very high on my list of priorities and I don't seem to be anywhere near the top of hers. If she's unwilling to move me higher on the list, then there's no reason to keep up the charade. I don't think me de-prioritizing her will get us anywhere though. She'll just think I'm a jerk. I've tried everything I can think of, and it's just time to attack it head-on. The conversation, initially, won't be emotional or consequential, it will be informational. I just want to know where I lie on that list of priorities and if she's seriously willing to make some changes. If not - done.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

*Re: The big talk*

I only post this stuff AFTER a guy has clearly stated his unhappiness with the lack of sex to his partner repeatedly. And the key concept here which seems very obvious to me is you should align your actions and your feelings. 

Many men do the ultimate passive aggressive move on this. They continue to show love, meet all her needs while she casually ignores theirs - BECAUSE she only takes his actions seriously not his words. And one day he cheats or leaves and she says 'holy sh!t" I really didn't know it was that big a deal. And honestly she didn't. Because SHE never would have kept treating him so well and meeting all his needs if he had been denying her highest priority needs. 

And I am very consistent on this point. WHILE deprioritizing your partner you continue to be friendly, polite and upbeat when in their company. You simply stop rewarding their uncaring behavior by way of a steady stream of very clearly loving acts. 

I can be friendly and polite and happy around you and never say ILY. And frankly not agree to do all those little extra things you like. Not because I am angry - rather because I make sure I am busy doing what I want. 

W: Babe could you get me a club sode
H: Normal response: sure (with a smile)
H: New response: in a friendly voice (sorry I am in the middle of something, but I am thirsty too, can you get me an ice water while you are getting your club soda?)

When SHE says - hey why aren't you being "nice" to me any more. The puzzled response is "I don't feel loved, desired and respected and my desire to do those things for you has faded". And then you shut up and let her talk. But UNTIL she feels the pain of being deprioritized, she isn't going to make more effort. Because she doesn't have to. 




Sawney Beane said:


> THIS is totally predicated on understanding that love = sexual connection. The evidence of these pages is that a lot of people haven’t been told this, or, if they have, think it’s a crock. If someone doesn’t think that sex has any connection to love, they aren’t going to get that you don’t feel loved if you don’t get laid! Just because YOU think it's important, they don't have to buy in. Think of a die-hard follower of a sports club - it's his life. Does his wife g.a.s.? Not necessarily, and why would she?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

*Re: The big talk*



MEM11363 said:


> I only post this stuff AFTER a guy has clearly stated his unhappiness with the lack of sex to his partner repeatedly. And the key concept here which seems very obvious to me is you should align your actions and your feelings.


Problem here is that we get trained to actively NOT align actions and feelings. Your are taught to de-couple what you do from what you want to do. From the simplest act of being respectful to bosses / customers who in no way deserve it upwards.



> I can be friendly and polite and happy around you and never say ILY. And frankly not agree to do all those little extra things you like. Not because I am angry - rather because I make sure I am busy doing what I want.
> 
> W: Babe could you get me a club sode
> H: Normal response: sure (with a smile)
> ...


OK, she feels the pain, but rather than asking why you're doing it, simply decides you're either a candidate for leading @rsehole in the county or just so far up yourself *you* need a wakeup call, and decides to meet even fewer of your needs. So you withdraw more. At what point does this spiral end? When you've become like two people sharing an office? When the Cold War goes hot and you both end up doing stuff you can't undo? Saying "But this bloke called MEM11363 said you'd realise it was because you weren't meeting my needs and change" is probably only going to get you another kicking


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

*Re: The big talk*



Sawney Beane said:


> Problem here is that we get trained to actively NOT align actions and feelings. Your are taught to de-couple what you do from what you want to do. From the simplest act of being respectful to bosses / customers who in no way deserve it upwards.


That's true. But it just doesn't work in a relationship. Acknowledging that it doesn't work in a relationship and then refusing to change by arguing, "But that's what I was taught," doesn't seem like a valid strategy.



Sawney Beane said:


> OK, she feels the pain, but rather than asking why you're doing it, simply decides you're either a candidate for leading @rsehole in the county or just so far up yourself *you* need a wakeup call, and decides to meet even fewer of your needs. So you withdraw more. At what point does this spiral end? When you've become like two people sharing an office? When the Cold War goes hot and you both end up doing stuff you can't undo? Saying "But this bloke called MEM11363 said you'd realise it was because you weren't meeting my needs and change" is probably only going to get you another kicking


As has been repeatedly pointed out, this is a strategy for action AFTER you have repeatedly communicated your needs. Do you believe that women are too dense to understand their husbands' needs when they have communicated in plain English? Do you believe that there is some magic number of times that women must hear something before comprehension finally kicks in? It's simply about nonverbal communication.

If you communicate that you are happy with someone, how is that person to know that you are actually unhappy? The simple answer is, she won't. And that applies to inconsistent communication as well. If you verbally communicate that you are upset and nonverbally communicate that you're fine, she will probably decide that you're fine. And that's understandable. But when you communicate both verbally and nonverbally that you are upset, she should get the picture.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

*Re: The big talk*



PHTlump said:


> As has been repeatedly pointed out, this is a strategy for action AFTER you have repeatedly communicated your needs. Do you believe that women are too dense to understand their husbands' needs when they have communicated in plain English?


Short answer? Yes. There is ample evidence on this site that this is the case. Women *AND MEN *too.



> Do you believe that there is some magic number of times that women must hear something before comprehension finally kicks in? It's simply about nonverbal communication.


If the other person doesn't actually believe it's a need, rather than an idle want, all they are going to perceive is that you are not being nice to them in return for them not doing something that (as far as they are concerned) you don't _*NEED*_ and you are simply being gittish about it.



> If you communicate that you are happy with someone, how is that person to know that you are actually unhappy? The simple answer is, she won't. And that applies to inconsistent communication as well. If you verbally communicate that you are upset and nonverbally communicate that you're fine, she will probably decide that you're fine. And that's understandable. But when you communicate both verbally and nonverbally that you are upset, she should get the picture.


If you don't COMMUNICATE but simply withdraw, how do they know? In most relationships, the telepathy mechanism was never installed. The difference between this way, and resentment, may not be immediately apparent.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

*Re: The big talk*



Sawney Beane said:


> If you don't COMMUNICATE but simply withdraw, how do they know? In most relationships, the telepathy mechanism was never installed. The difference between this way, and resentment, may not be immediately apparent.


I honestly don't understand your objection to MEM's thermostat plan. You state that women can't understand their husbands' verbal communications on their sexual needs. And then you state that the solution to that is for husbands to verbally communicate their sexual needs. :scratchhead:

It seems obvious to me that husbands should not keep doing what doesn't work.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

I think the key to success is whether you have a spouse who is willing to work it out with you. Whether it takes words to convey your concerns or whether it requires more radical measures to convey those likely depends on the spouse's response, their desire to work on the relationship, and the circumstances of the relationship (e.g., how much time has gone by in a sexless state or other issues that are pressing in the relationship). YMMV.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> I think the key to success is whether you have a spouse who is willing to work it out with you. Whether it takes words to convey your concerns or whether it requires more radical measures to convey those likely depends on the spouse's response, their desire to work on the relationship, and the circumstances of the relationship (e.g., how much time has gone by in a sexless state or other issues that are pressing in the relationship). YMMV.


This. If the other person isn't prepared to put in some effort, MEM's scheme or anything else, is not going to work. Why would it?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Enchantment said:


> I think the key to success is whether you have a spouse who is willing to work it out with you. Whether it takes words to convey your concerns or whether it requires more radical measures to convey those likely depends on the spouse's response, their desire to work on the relationship, and the circumstances of the relationship (e.g., how much time has gone by in a sexless state or other issues that are pressing in the relationship). YMMV.


Which is EXACTLY the goal of the deprioritizing or turning down the thermostat. 
People get caught up in seeing this as trickery. It isn't. The advice is specifically geared to address men ... or women who desperately want to know whether or not they have a spouse that _will_ work with them.

How do I know that Cole's relationship will ultimately crash and burn if he waits for that perfect moment to address the issue when his wife isn't stressed and 'feels' like dealing with it?
Because I lived it.
If anything, using this strategy condenses the nonsense. It expedites the outcome either way ... you know if your partner is invested in you, or if their primary focus is simply you being invested in them.

Losing that kind of spouse is by no means a loss. Whereas if he, like I did for a very long time, just tows the line, continues to act loving while at best being ignored, or at worst, scorned, is a long slow march to bitterness, anger, frustration and resentment, on both sides. 

The goal is to empower the higher temperature (more loving, giving, feeling neglected) spouse, not to punish the lower temperature (less loving, taker, feeling crowded or pressured) spouse.

We good?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SB,
And this is the undertone to ALL your comments. You seem to favor "unhappy stability" over making a concerted effort - that may result in breaking the relationship - to rebalance and achieve a mutually happy relationship. 

This is the most concise possible version of my theme:

IF
You truly love your partner, you are good at "them", meaning you have learned know HOW to be a good/great life mate for them and you actually DO IT. If all that is true THAN: When you come on here your angst is primarily caused by the following parasitic energy flow: YOU are pouring love (in the form of time, money and emotional energy) into someone who is not reciprocating. And that situation - loving without being loved back - is long term toxic. 

THEN
You have to accept that being "angry" and showing anger towards your non-loving partner is actually counterproductive. Instead you start consciously choosing to love less. To deprioritize your partner. If you wish to preface that with a short conversation - that conversation should go like this.

You: We need to talk. 
Them: About what?
You: Let me start with a question. Do you believe you know what I need from you in order to feel loved. 
Them: (Uneasy body language) What are you asking me?
You: Simple question - Am I your highest priority in life and if not, where am I on your priority list. 
Them: (now irritated) What do you want? Is this another sex talk?
You: Actually by not answering my question, you have answered it with total clarity. I just need you to understand that I am going to rapidly "re-balance" this relationship as it has become very unbalanced. Since you seem uninterested in even understanding WHAT matters to me, clearly you don't wish to do MORE. And that is ok. We will reach balance by me doing LESS. And maybe we will end up mutually tolerating a high level of indifference to each others needs. I guess we will find out. 
Them: What does THAT mean?
You: I will simply treat you the way you treat me. Nothing to sweat over. 


And thats it. Short simple and effective. 










Sawney Beane said:


> This. If the other person isn't prepared to put in some effort, MEM's scheme or anything else, is not going to work. Why would it?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> SB,
> And this is the undertone to ALL your comments. You seem to favor "unhappy stability" over making a concerted effort - that may result in breaking the relationship - to rebalance and achieve a mutually happy relationship.


I’m not against making effort, but but in your terms (above) I suppose I don’t see the advantage of “unhappy instability” over “unhappy stability”. I suppose I see the unhappiness as being like a bomb. If it’s stable you can do a controlled detonation, but if it’s unstable it can explode catastrophically at any time.



> This is the most concise possible version of my theme:
> 
> IF
> <trimmed for space>
> ...


Maybe my questions haven’t been clear: 

What is to stop her interpreting this as you simply being petulant and unkind because she won’t shag you? 

How does this make her WANT to shag you, rather than have her simply give in to you because of low-level intimidation? 

Why is the threat of unpleasantness the best tool to inspire love? 

If you’re only getting sex because she dislikes the consequences of NOT doing it, how long is it before you have to ratchet up the threat level to maintain compliance?

Athol K’s approach is about making yourself attractive / desirable and having her follow because she then wants to. This seems to be about “Do what I want or take the consequences”.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Unhappy instability leads to repair or termination. Because your partner is now unhappy also and they think about things seriously. 

As for the other bit - you know me better than that. Of course you always start with yourself first.




Sawney Beane said:


> I’m not against making effort, but but in your terms (above) I suppose I don’t see the advantage of “unhappy instability” over “unhappy stability”. I suppose I see the unhappiness as being like a bomb. If it’s stable you can do a controlled detonation, but if it’s unstable it can explode catastrophically at any time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Sawney Beane said:


> Maybe my questions haven’t been clear:
> 
> What is to stop her interpreting this as you simply being petulant and unkind because she won’t shag you?
> 
> ...


I think a man needs to exhaust every single one of these ideas.... The expressing of how he feels, what he needs in the relationship sexually so he knows she has HEARD & has no excuses, the making himself more attractive /desirable to lure her AND the thermostat if the other 2 prove fruitless. 



MEM11363 said:


> I only post this stuff AFTER a guy has clearly stated his unhappiness with the lack of sex to his partner repeatedly. And the key concept here which seems very obvious to me is you should align your actions and your feelings.
> 
> Many men do the ultimate passive aggressive move on this. They continue to show love, meet all her needs while she casually ignores theirs - BECAUSE she only takes his actions seriously not his words. And one day he cheats or leaves and she says 'holy sh!t" I really didn't know it was that big a deal. And honestly she didn't. Because SHE never would have kept treating him so well and meeting all his needs if he had been denying her highest priority needs.


MY husband did this to me, He was building silent resentment -all the while treating me wonderfully (though he was grouchy with the kids, I did notice this), he hardly talked to me about his needs, it was so "weak hand shaked", I did not get it at all and he NEVER deprioratized me, so I went along my merry way -basically clueless to what was brewing under the surface, him trying to bury his needs. I was off in the clouds somewhere feeing everything was hunky dory for the most part, while he choose to play a silent sufferer. I accuallly was FURIOUS with him when I learned this years later. It did neither of us any favors, and wasted many GOOD years. 

If the words /talking /expressing of your needs falls on deaf ears & a cold bed time & time again -with no effort on her part, Do an Athol - Bestow your hotness & value before her, use a little outside jealousy if you can even, let her know others want YOU. A little Jelaousy will always arouse some interest if sexual attraction is there. 

If this too, gets you nowhere fast, it is TIME to put her on the backburner, no mercy. Let her get a taste of her own medicine! Since she already walked on your feelings, discarded them like a rag, and knowing you are a prize & could get another if you wanted has no effect- the thermostat is the ONLY OTHER ANSWER unless you want to push her to the Docs to get her hormones tested & start pumping her with aphrodisacs! 

SHe will definitely NOTICE "the change in the thermostat", she won't like !! Life will not be so easy to go on as it was before, this will* force *her to QUESTION what is happening, why she is no longer on "the pedestal" - she will now be scrambing for answers to get his interest & attention back on her. After all, her needs have fallen by the wayside !! 

If a woman can NOT look in the mirror at this point, she is not worth having. If she can not see HER ACTIONS had a hand in bringing her man to this place, there is nothing left to work with, all has been exhausted. 

Deal breaking time. Life is too short. If sex is important, IT IS IMPORTANT, don't downplay it. This is how I see it. If my husband would have effectively used the 3 methods pointed out here, we would have saved many years, and he would have saved himself in the process. I would have rightly deserved the Deprioritizing had I trampled on the His FEELINGS and desires like they are nothing. 

It will always take 2, "unconditional" loving is NOT the answer to these issues.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
Exactly. You said this perfectly well. 

As for a "threat" I actually would describe deprioritization as a process. And if confronted about it I think it is perfectly fair to tell your partner:

"I have told you repeatedly that I feel I am a low priority to you. Nothing changed. I accept that I cannot demand that you love me more. And I know that you respect my right to choose to love you "less" until we reach a balance where we are both at about the same spot". 

And I think a lot of partners at that point will get aggressive, try to paint you as the bad person and claim that you are being a "jerk". And that is just someone trying to maintain their parasitic exchange with you. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> I think a man needs to exhaust every single one of these ideas.... The expressing of how he feels, what he needs in the relationship sexually so he knows she has HEARD & has no excuses, the making himself more attractive /desirable to lure her AND the thermostat if the other 2 prove fruitless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> SA,
> Exactly. You said this perfectly well.
> 
> As for a "threat" I actually would describe deprioritization as a process. And if confronted about it I think it is perfectly fair to tell your partner:
> ...


We have seen this dynamic a number of times on the forum with recovering nice guys. Rarely ... is an overbearing or disengaged spouse going to simply surrender the status quo without becoming a screaming banshee. The screaming banshee phase is proof positive that changes are taking place. It is a last ditch effort to beat-down the previously beaten down spouse who is now standing up for them self. That's just how it works.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Unhappy instability leads to repair or termination. Because your partner is now unhappy also and they think about things seriously.
> 
> As for the other bit - you know me better than that. Of course you always start with yourself first.


As Jeremy Paxman would say, "With the greatest respect, you are NOT answering the question!"

Especially as regards 

How does this make her WANT to shag you, rather than have her simply give in to you; and 

If you’re only getting sex because she dislikes the consequences of NOT doing it, how long is it before you have to ratchet up the threat level to maintain compliance?


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> As Jeremy Paxman would say, "With the greatest respect, you are NOT answering the question!"
> 
> Especially as regards
> 
> ...


I think he hasn't answered it because it doesn't seem like a serious question. 

You keep using the word "threat" regarding this strategy. But it really doesn't apply. The proper word is reciprocate. If you communicate to your wife that you are going to prioritize her about the same amount that she prioritizes you, then she will instinctively find the balance that she is happy with. And that will include shagging you because she wants to.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I think he hasn't answered it because it doesn't seem like a serious question.


I'm totally serious.


> You keep using the word "threat" regarding this strategy. But it really doesn't apply. The proper word is reciprocate. If you communicate to your wife that you are going to prioritize her about the same amount that she prioritizes you, then she will instinctively find the balance that she is happy with. And that will include shagging you because she wants to.


Or she shags you because even though she finds the idea utterly distasteful, she finds the alternative (you leaving, or being treated like sh1t on a permanent basis) even less to her taste.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SB,
This is a subtle but excellent question. As my w became more certain that a highly sexual marriage was the 
Only monogamous option open to her with ME, she quickly shifted to 
"brutally honest" mode regarding sex. Very helpful


TE=Sawney Beane;382574]I'm totally serious.

Or she shags you because even though she finds the idea utterly distasteful, she finds the alternative (you leaving, or being treated like sh1t on a permanent basis) even less to her taste.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SB,
Do you think someone can start out feeling no lust and "let themselves relax" so that you are able to get them on the mood?

Do you think someone can feel no lust at the start and only a little during the act and still feel happy to bring you joy?

I ask because we have spells during which my W has reduced desire but truly loves me enough to get a lot of emotional pleasure from pleasing me.

Much of that is because what I say and what I do align very well.


Beane;382522]As Jeremy Paxman would say, "With the greatest respect, you are NOT answering the question!"

Especially as regards 

How does this make her WANT to shag you, rather than have her simply give in to you; and 

If you’re only getting sex because she dislikes the consequences of NOT doing it, how long is it before you have to ratchet up the threat level to maintain compliance?[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

In the end anyone will make up any reason they feel comfortable with to excuse their own beastly behavior. It's you it's the church it's morality it's it's it's it's. Of course it's all 100% nonsense. They behave beastly because they are beastly. 

This is something I turn over in my head all the time. My wife's astonishingly horrendous behavior isn't even worth discussing. Why? Because it's not what she does, it's what she IS. She could no more change it than she could become left handed. Even if she wanted to, which doesn't, she never could. No one who's a committed monster can. This is what they are; monsters. The world has never looked to them like it does to you and most other people. 

She won't have sex with you because she won't have sex with you. Period. End of analysis. And if she does one of those freakishly infrequent times, she's faking it and there's no one inside that shell. You don't matter. All that other person wants is what they want. And if your demands occasionally stand in the way of that, well so be it. 99% of the time she can swat it away. The other 1% is that having to go to the dentist.

You see they're not tortured by not having sex, it's just the reverse with them. Their 'happy' is frustrated, angry and withholding. That's their goal.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Or she shags you because even though she finds the idea utterly distasteful, she finds the alternative (you leaving, or being treated like sh1t on a permanent basis) even less to her taste.


You could say that about any behavior. Do you refrain from beating your wife because of the consequences (divorce, jail)? Do you remain faithful in order to avoid paying alimony? Consequences exist for every choice. Arguing that the choice to deprioritize your spouse should be free from consequences doesn't seem serious.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> You could say that about any behavior. Do you refrain from beating your wife because of the consequences (divorce, jail)? Do you remain faithful in order to avoid paying alimony? Consequences exist for every choice. Arguing that the choice to deprioritize your spouse should be free from consequences doesn't seem serious.


You're comparing apples with oranges. In a civilised society people don't generally beat the sh1t out of one another. The consequences are there for the protection of the majority and to keep the animals in the cages. You DO NOT have a right to break the law simply because you feel like it.

On the other hand, there's no statute that says a wife has to open her legs or expect to be treated like a dogturd. "Conjugal rights" disappeared from law decades ago.


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## Lea2407 (Jul 14, 2011)

Colell, 

There's obviously been a ton of discussion on what you should or shouldn't do, but I'm really curious to know if you ever talked to your wife and how it turned out. 

I hope that both of you have found a way to get past these issues or at least that you both recognize the problem and talk about how to move forward. 

Just keep in mind that you know your wife better than any of us ever can. Looking back through all of the responses, I was overwhelmed by all of the conflicting advice, with each person thinking that their advice is the best. Hopefully, you were able to sort through the advice and find something to help you. 

Again, I'd love to hear if and how you were able to work things out if you're still around.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> SB,
> Do you think someone can start out feeling no lust and "let themselves relax" so that you are able to get them on the mood?


If they are essentially "neutral"? Yes. If they aren't "neutral", but as it were negative (i.e. feeling any distaste, disgust, resentment what have you,) then no. 



> Do you think someone can feel no lust at the start and only a little during the act and still feel happy to bring you joy?


Yes, but I would suspect that this has very short legs in most cases, as the idea that there's nothing in it for them except your jollies would wear down pretty fast among most people. 


> I ask because we have spells during which my W has reduced desire but truly loves me enough to get a lot of emotional pleasure from pleasing me.


Maybe the (key?) difference is that your wife, based on your writings, most of the time likes you, likes sex and enjoys the act. To someone who has no sexual connection with their partner, or finds sex distasteful and gets nothing out of it, acting like a sexual performing seal for your benefit simply to avoid you being arseholeish is going to get old very quickly. There is no postivie reinforcement to the message, it's simply "do as I want or expect me to treat you like crap". It sends, and reinforces a power dynamic that seems to involve only using negative behaviour to achieve your desired ends, rather than trying to get someone to do what you want because they want to do it.



> Much of that is because what I say and what I do align very well.


I know it works for you, but just because you're honest won't necessarily make someone lust after you.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> SB,
> This is a subtle but excellent question. As my w became more certain that a highly sexual marriage was the
> Only monogamous option open to her with ME, she quickly shifted to
> "brutally honest" mode regarding sex. Very helpful


If she had never refused you, but simply sighed deeply, rolled her eyes and laid there like a sack of potatoes looking into the distance and wondering when she could get back to doing something she likes? Unless there is some connection or desire to participate, you can demand compliance, but not generate enthusiasm. You can force people to put effort into something (managers do it all the time), and even twist their arms into smiling as they do it, but you can't force them into _really_ liking it.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> You're comparing apples with oranges. In a civilised society people don't generally beat the sh1t out of one another. The consequences are there for the protection of the majority and to keep the animals in the cages. You DO NOT have a right to break the law simply because you feel like it.


I'm comparing apples (consequences affecting criminal behavior) with apples (consequences affecting behavior within a marriage).



Sawney Beane said:


> On the other hand, there's no statute that says a wife has to open her legs or expect to be treated like a dogturd. "Conjugal rights" disappeared from law decades ago.


That's true. However, it has nothing to do with this thread.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Unless there is some connection or desire to participate, you can demand compliance, but not generate enthusiasm. You can force people to put effort into something (managers do it all the time), and even twist their arms into smiling as they do it, but you can't force them into _really_ liking it.


I think you're just arguing something that has never been contested. Is it possible that a wife will have no desire for a husband and no strategy on Earth will restore her desire? Yes. Obviously, yes.

In that situation, I say lowering the thermostat is still the best choice of action. It won't result in the wife feeling increased desire, but it will save the husband the pain of unrequited effort and affection.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I'm comparing apples (consequences affecting criminal behavior) with apples (consequences affecting behavior within a marriage).


Thnere are reasonable consequences and unreasonable consequences.

You fight the law and the law wins - reasonable consequence.

You decide that you don't want to have sex, get threatened that you'll be treated like sh1t unless you do it and pretend to like it - unreasonable consequence.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Thnere are reasonable consequences and unreasonable consequences.
> 
> You fight the law and the law wins - reasonable consequence.
> 
> You decide that you don't want to have sex, get threatened that you'll be treated like sh1t unless you do it and pretend to like it - unreasonable consequence.


It seems entirely reasonable to me for a husband to prioritize his wife around the same amount as she prioritizes him. It seems entirely unreasonable for a wife to expect her husband to prioritize her significantly more than she is willing to prioritize him.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> It seems entirely reasonable to me for a husband to prioritize his wife around the same amount as she prioritizes him. It seems entirely unreasonable for a wife to expect her husband to prioritize her significantly more than she is willing to prioritize him.


And no matter how you slice it, any sex you get will be grudging, perceived to be given under threat and totally lacking in enthusiasm. If that's what floats your boat, good for you.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> And no matter how you slice it, any sex you get will be grudging, perceived to be given under threat and totally lacking in enthusiasm. If that's what floats your boat, good for you.


Equal priorities in a relationship float my boat. You seem to think that unequal priorities in a relationship are perfectly fine. If that is what floats your boat, I'm happy for you.

Effective communication also floats my boat. When verbal communication and non-verbal communication are consistent, communication is more effective than when husbands follow your preferred approach of inconsistent, confusing communication to their wives. If that is what floats your boat, I'm happy for you. :smthumbup:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Out of 3,000 or so encounters I vividly remember the one night I realized mid-stroke that my lovely W was really wishing we were NOT having sex. I stopped - confused and anxious. She insisted she was fine - and insisted I continue. Immediately afterward I physically felt sick. Asked her if she was ok. Asked if I had done something wrong. 

I cannot in any way relate to the guys who:
- Have sex when their wives are verbally or non-verbally conveying total indifference or 
- Clearly conveying to the husband he needs to hurry up and finish or
- Whose wives have told them that "the Wife will no longer kiss the husband as part of sex"

That said, we absolutely have had our share of nights where she comes to bed and in a very giving way makes it "all about me". And every once in a while that is fine. But given my soft telepathy I am certain that she IS happy to make me happy. Just like I am happy doing thats that are enjoyable for her pretty much all the time. 

But I literally cringe at the thought of what you describe below. One experience with that was MORE than enough for me. A pattern of that is humiliating for the "amorous" partner and degrading to the "non-amorous" partner. Yuck. 





Sawney Beane said:


> If she had never refused you, but simply sighed deeply, rolled her eyes and laid there like a sack of potatoes looking into the distance and wondering when she could get back to doing something she likes? Unless there is some connection or desire to participate, you can demand compliance, but not generate enthusiasm. You can force people to put effort into something (managers do it all the time), and even twist their arms into smiling as they do it, but you can't force them into _really_ liking it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

PHT,
Thank you. This is 100 percent my point. Being lonely is bad. Feeling constantly rejected is SO much worse. 

Besides - it is easier to leave someone with a totally clear conscience if your behavior and your actions have been completely aligned for a long time with no attempt by your partner at remedy. 




PHTlump said:


> I think you're just arguing something that has never been contested. Is it possible that a wife will have no desire for a husband and no strategy on Earth will restore her desire? Yes. Obviously, yes.
> 
> In that situation, I say lowering the thermostat is still the best choice of action. It won't result in the wife feeling increased desire, but it will save the husband the pain of unrequited effort and affection.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SB,
Why is it that if I stop being "loving" which is ALL I am advocating, you repeatedly refer to that as treating my spouse like sh!t. And yet you don't refer to her choosing to ignore my need to feel loved through sex as HER treating ME like sh!t. 

BTW: I do not think that a LD partner simply refusing sex equates to treating their higher drive partner like sh!t. I truly don't. 

However that isn't really how this works is it. There is a HUGE amount of deception wrapped into the sexual refusal package. It is very, very rare that the LD partner steps up and says:
1. I am flat out not attracted to you and while I will tolerate sex with you 5-10 times a year, it is difficult for me to even do that. 
2. I have thought about it, and if you wish to know I can TELL you why I am not attracted to you.
3. I like you platonically and/or your emotional/financial support so I want to stay together BUT
4. I do NOT want you doing a never ending list of EXTRA stuff for me in an exhausting and ultimately vain attempt to get me to want sex. Because I won't. In fact trying harder makes you even MORE unattractive to me. 
5. I do not expect you to remain celibate. That isn't fair to you. Lets talk about what might work. 

Instead typically just the opposite happens:
1. Refusal to directly say "I have no desire for you"
2. Using sexual leverage to get treated like royalty with no real interest in reciprocity. 
3. Getting aggressive and attacking their HD partner for even "bringing it up" as a problem
4. Making it clear that they DO expect you to remain Involuntarily Celibate for the rest of your life. 
5. Occassionally leading you on - just to ensure that they still own you and your heart. And then acting surprised and refusing you when you initiate. 

Refusing sex. That isn't treating you like sh!t. That is their right as an autonomous human being. All the deception and manipulation, that is very abusive. 

Lowering the temp - that is not abusive. I am no more obligated to say ILY or cook a fancy dinner than you are to have sex with me. 



Sawney Beane said:


> Thnere are reasonable consequences and unreasonable consequences.
> 
> You fight the law and the law wins - reasonable consequence.
> 
> You decide that you don't want to have sex, get threatened that you'll be treated like sh1t unless you do it and pretend to like it - unreasonable consequence.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

PHT,
Yes. I actually don't get why SB is taking a series of indefensible positions. 



PHTlump said:


> It seems entirely reasonable to me for a husband to prioritize his wife around the same amount as she prioritizes him. It seems entirely unreasonable for a wife to expect her husband to prioritize her significantly more than she is willing to prioritize him.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

PHT,
Yes. Same for me on all counts. 

Any my W and I have a simple policy. Either:
- I can't/don't want to do that now, but will do it tomorrow/this weekend OR
- I will do it now and with enthusiasm. 

And we follow that in and out of bed. Works very well. It is very unhealthy to do anything for your life mate with a crummy attitude. Either "do" or "not do". Don't "pretend" to do something. 




PHTlump said:


> Equal priorities in a relationship float my boat. You seem to think that unequal priorities in a relationship are perfectly fine. If that is what floats your boat, I'm happy for you.
> 
> Effective communication also floats my boat. When verbal communication and non-verbal communication are consistent, communication is more effective than when husbands follow your preferred approach of inconsistent, confusing communication to their wives. If that is what floats your boat, I'm happy for you. :smthumbup:


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## Katya (Jun 23, 2011)

Lea2407 said:


> Colell,
> 
> I honestly sympathize with you, or at least my husband does. Your wife sounds a lot like I was when my husband and I married. We were high school sweethearts and both technically saved ourselves for marriage, even though we did fool around before then. I was very active in my church and had definite moral issues with sex before marriage. My husband went to the same church but didn't have the issues I had.
> 
> ...



And now added to that, your last response Lea, I see eye to eye with you.

Perhaps using the word 'malicious' to describe what most people have been terming the wifes behaviour (as I did quite a bit earlier in this thread) was a little on the negative side, but there's no doubt that many are seeing her as behaving this way as a choice, doing this out of selfish motives, etc, and I just have a really hard time with that. Many here have made HUGE assumptions about her behaviour based on their own experiences or whatever but the bottom line is that _none of us know her._ 

It is incredible to see the differing opinions and advice on this thread and I'm not saying that negatively. I just see her through my own glass, which is alot like Lea's.

I too hope that you are getting something helpful from all this Colell. {hugs}


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> But I literally cringe at the thought of what you describe below. One experience with that was MORE than enough for me. A pattern of that is humiliating for the "amorous" partner and degrading to the "non-amorous" partner. Yuck.


I agree, but the evidence here and elsewhere is that there's a lot of it about. I'm not taking indefensible positions for the hell of it, but to try to see how this method works in some of the real situations I've read about or had recounted to me. Real situations like the one above.


> SB,
> Why is it that if I stop being "loving" which is ALL I am advocating, you repeatedly refer to that as treating my spouse like sh!t. And yet you don't refer to her choosing to ignore my need to feel loved through sex as HER treating ME like sh!t.


Two possible reasons: first I can't get the idea that marriages are about love, not mutual deprioritiastion out of my mind; and second, having spent too much time in between two groups of people having a go at one another in tit for tat fashion, each racking up what they did each time. It wasn't pretty.



> BTW: I do not think that a LD partner simply refusing sex equates to treating their higher drive partner like sh!t. I truly don't.
> 
> However that isn't really how this works is it. There is a HUGE amount of deception wrapped into the sexual refusal package. It is very, very rare that the LD partner steps up and says:
> 1. I am flat out not attracted to you and while I will tolerate sex with you 5-10 times a year, it is difficult for me to even do that.
> ...


OK. I see how this disconnecting approach helps when you finally bail out. How does it act to improve the relationship? If all either side is doing is backing further and further off, why not simply walk away and save the time?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> I agree, but the evidence here and elsewhere is that there's a lot of it about. I'm not taking indefensible positions for the hell of it, but to try to see how this method works in some of the real situations I've read about or had recounted to me. Real situations like the one above.
> 
> Two possible reasons: first I can't get the idea that marriages are about love, not mutual deprioritiastion out of my mind; and second, having spent too much time in between two groups of people having a go at one another in tit for tat fashion, each racking up what they did each time. It wasn't pretty.
> 
> ...


Exactly. I really don't get any of this. Why go through all this song and dance to save a relationship that isn't worth saving anyways? If your day begins and ends with test after test, temp, deprioritizing, cooling, etc., you are with the wrong person. 
Also, I agree about threats and compliance. The person gives in and the next time the threat doesn't work, it get's racheted up. That isn't love or stability, those are threats and intimidation. A mafia style marriage isn't going to work long term. 
Isn't life too short?


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Exactly. I really don't get any of this. Why go through all this song and dance to save a relationship that isn't worth saving anyways? If your day begins and ends with test after test, temp, deprioritizing, cooling, etc., you are with the wrong person.
> Also, I agree about threats and compliance. The person gives in and the next time the threat doesn't work, it get's racheted up. That isn't love or stability, those are threats and intimidation. A mafia style marriage isn't going to work long term.
> Isn't life too short?


Nice poke.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> Two possible reasons: first I can't get the idea that marriages are about love, not mutual deprioritiastion out of my mind; and second, having spent too much time in between two groups of people having a go at one another in tit for tat fashion, each racking up what they did each time. It wasn't pretty.


What you need to understand is that we're talking about flawed marriages that occur in the real world. I agree that in Utopia, marriages are all about which spouse can serve the other more selflessly. However, when a marriage has one spouse that selflessly serves the other and one spouse that's all about taking and not giving, you have to restore some balance.



Sawney Beane said:


> OK. I see how this disconnecting approach helps when you finally bail out. How does it act to improve the relationship?


As many of us have pointed out, repeatedly, it's about communication. When you advise a husband to tell his wife that he is unhappy and needs more sex, but continue happily serving and providing for her needs, you are advising the husband to confuse his wife. You are telling him to say one thing and do another. And you're hoping that the wife will flip a coin and decide to believe the verbal communication and disregard the nonverbal communication rather than vice versa. I suppose that approach has, at best, a 50% chance of working. Arguing that inconsistent, confused communication is the pathway to improving a relationship is, indeed, an indefensible position.

The thermostat approach brings verbal communication in harmony with non-verbal communication. And effective communication is almost always one of the primary keys to improving relationships.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Exactly. I really don't get any of this. Why go through all this song and dance to save a relationship that isn't worth saving anyways? If your day begins and ends with test after test, temp, deprioritizing, cooling, etc., you are with the wrong person.
> Also, I agree about threats and compliance. The person gives in and the next time the threat doesn't work, it get's racheted up. That isn't love or stability, those are threats and intimidation. A mafia style marriage isn't going to work long term.
> Isn't life too short?


People will fight for a marriage for many reasons. Some religious, some personal, some practical. Just bailing sounds fine until you think about paying alimony, only seeing your kids on the weekends, starting at square 1 with another partner (who may want to start another family), the church refusing to grant annulment, etc.

As for a deprioritizing spouse not being worthwhile, I think you are overestimating people in general. I think 90% of the husbands in the world could easily nice-guy their wives into the old "ILYBINILWY" speech. People are pretty predictable like that.

And the thermostat approach isn't about threats or intimidation. It's about saving one spouse from beating his head against the wall while the other could care less. If the wife (in this case) has irrevocably checked out of the marriage, the husband needs to discover and accept that ASAP. The thermostat will help him with that. If the wife simply needs a wake up call, the thermostat will help with that as well.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

PHT,
Yes.

And you continue to grasp the core of this which is aligning how you feel and how you act. 




PHTlump said:


> People will fight for a marriage for many reasons. Some religious, some personal, some practical. Just bailing sounds fine until you think about paying alimony, only seeing your kids on the weekends, starting at square 1 with another partner (who may want to start another family), the church refusing to grant annulment, etc.
> 
> As for a deprioritizing spouse not being worthwhile, I think you are overestimating people in general. I think 90% of the husbands in the world could easily nice-guy their wives into the old "ILYBINILWY" speech. People are pretty predictable like that.
> 
> And the thermostat approach isn't about threats or intimidation. It's about saving one spouse from beating his head against the wall while the other could care less. If the wife (in this case) has irrevocably checked out of the marriage, the husband needs to discover and accept that ASAP. The thermostat will help him with that. If the wife simply needs a wake up call, the thermostat will help with that as well.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> PHT,
> Yes.
> 
> And you continue to grasp the core of this which is aligning how you feel and how you act.


OK. You align how you feel and act accordingly. You feel deprioritized (e.g. by too little sex). You say you are not going to give any priority to what she wants until she agrees to shag you more.

She didn't G.A.S. before, *WHY* does she G.A.S. now? *WHAT* is the mechanism that makes her care now when she didn't before? *HOW* does this make her bothered about meeting your needs when she wasn't before?

Again, why does she care now, when she didn't before?

Straight answer please.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> She didn't G.A.S. before, *WHY* does she G.A.S. now? *WHAT* is the mechanism that makes her care now when she didn't before? *HOW* does this make her bothered about meeting your needs when she wasn't before?
> 
> Again, why does she care now, when she didn't before?
> 
> Straight answer please.


If you haven't gotten it yet, you're probably not going to get it. 

I started to type a lengthy response, but I got deja vu. Just browse the numerous other responses in this thread from either Deejo, MEM, or myself, and let us know if you have any new questions.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> If you haven't gotten it yet, you're probably not going to get it.
> 
> I started to type a lengthy response, but I got deja vu. Just browse the numerous other responses in this thread from either Deejo, MEM, or myself, and let us know if you have any new questions.


That is to say, YOU don't have an answer...:rofl:

Nearest I can get is that it's first cousin to what engineers call destructive testing. You test it to destruction, so you say it was a crock anyway. No pretence of mending or improving, just bust it and be done.

Smooth. Really smooth.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Sawney Beane said:


> That is to say, YOU don't have an answer...:rofl:


Or, the answer has been provided, many times, and you still don't comprehend it.



Sawney Beane said:


> Nearest I can get is that it's first cousin to what engineers call destructive testing. You test it to destruction, so you say it was a crock anyway. No pretence of mending or improving, just bust it and be done.
> 
> Smooth. Really smooth.


In engineering terms with a marriage as a building, I would say the marriages where the wives have deprioritized the husband is like a building with a huge crack in the foundation. You seem to recommend being thankful that the building hasn't fallen down. You might suggest the husband tread very softly when he's near that crack. It won't get any better, but if he's lucky it won't get any worse.

The thermostat approach is to expose the crack. Clean it out. You might knock the building down in the process, but it was a damaged building anyway and you'll know to check your next one for cracks. However, you might just repair that crack to be stronger than the original construction. :smthumbup:


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SB,
What is your suggested approach when:
1. the HD partner has done all the stuff Atholk suggests to be more desirable and 
2. Their partner is still ignoring their sexual needs despite having been told it is a big problem






Sawney Beane said:


> That is to say, YOU don't have an answer...:rofl:
> 
> Nearest I can get is that it's first cousin to what engineers call destructive testing. You test it to destruction, so you say it was a crock anyway. No pretence of mending or improving, just bust it and be done.
> 
> Smooth. Really smooth.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Sawney Beane said:


> Again, why does she care now, when she didn't before?
> 
> Straight answer please.


My straight answer? Speaking for myself, and my point of view.

It ain't about her. It's about him. He changes. She is welcome to come along for the ride. She may not. Absolutely nothing may change from her perspective ... but that almost never happens. She still may not want to shag him ... in this case it seems like she NEVER wanted that. But it is highly likely that she will come to see, and interact with him differently.

If he's made the changes? Her not coming along is an acceptable outcome instead of feeling like the bottom has fallen out of his life.

It's that simple.

I can't tell where your focus is, the solution or the fight?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Or, the answer has been provided, many times, and you still don't comprehend it.
> 
> 
> In engineering terms with a marriage as a building, I would say the marriages where the wives have deprioritized the husband is like a building with a huge crack in the foundation. You seem to recommend being thankful that the building hasn't fallen down. You might suggest the husband tread very softly when he's near that crack. It won't get any better, but if he's lucky it won't get any worse.
> ...


Wrong. Totally wrong. If it's a building with a huge crack in the foundation, walk away from it. Even if you mend it, you'll spend the rest of the time looking for new cracks or for a re-occurence of the old one. Sell it on and walk. 

If you know it's that bad, walk away. If the crack is smaller, unless you know you can mend it without bringing the whole thing down about your ears, leave it alone or walk away. If you don't feel you have the skills to mend it, get someone in who can or walk away. 

But whether it's houses or marriages, digging about under the foundations is a bad idea unless you're happy to sit wondering "WTF happened?" when the roof falls on your head.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> SB,
> What is your suggested approach when:
> 1. the HD partner has done all the stuff Atholk suggests to be more desirable and
> 2. Their partner is still ignoring their sexual needs despite having been told it is a big problem


Walk. They've had ample warning. Walk, not piss about trying to see if by being less loving you can make her more or less loving. Walk.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Deejo said:


> My straight answer? Speaking for myself, and my point of view.
> 
> It ain't about her. It's about him. He changes. She is welcome to come along for the ride. She may not. Absolutely nothing may change from her perspective ... but that almost never happens. She still may not want to shag him ... in this case it seems like she NEVER wanted that. But it is highly likely that she will come to see, and interact with him differently.
> 
> ...


Seems like a great way of wasting time and effort. If it's at this stage, you're doing the emotional equivalent of throwing good money after bad. Bail. If you're going to stay, stay, if you're going to go, go. 
Sh1t or get off the pot.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

You are utterly missing the point. I'm not saying that to be insulting. I'm saying it because I'm presuming you personally have not, or don't know any guys that have been confronted with these circumstances. The circumstance Cole finds himself in now.

He doesn't understand WHY his wife doesn't want to be intimate. He's a stand up guy. He has a good job. He is loving, supportive, patient and compliant . He wants his wife to be happy, and has no desire or intention of leaving the woman he loves. That is why this advice focuses on 'Nice Guys'. To your credit SB, you just don't much seem to fit the profile of the dude this advice is intended for.

You don't go from being a doormat with no boundaries ... to the man you describe who DOES recognize that the relationship is unrecoverable and decides to walk out the door without taking very distinct steps to get there. 

Those are the steps being described. There are plenty of guys stories on the board that will attest that the steps are helpful to THEM ... regardless of what their spouses response is.

Love your closing phrase btw. I use it all the time. I got off the pot.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Deejo said:


> You are utterly missing the point. I'm not saying that to be insulting. I'm saying it because I'm presuming you personally have not, or don't know any guys that have been confronted with these circumstances. The circumstance Cole finds himself in now.


You're right, I don't



> He doesn't understand WHY his wife doesn't want to be intimate. He's a stand up guy. He has a good job. He is loving, supportive, patient and compliant . He wants his wife to be happy, and has no desire or intention of leaving the woman he loves. That is why this advice focuses on 'Nice Guys'. To your credit SB, you just don't much seem to fit the profile of the dude this advice is intended for.


Thanks - I think:scratchhead:



> You don't go from being a doormat with no boundaries ... to the man you describe who DOES recognize that the relationship is unrecoverable and decides to walk out the door without taking very distinct steps to get there.
> 
> Those are the steps being described. There are plenty of guys stories on the board that will attest that the steps are helpful to THEM ... regardless of what their spouses response is.


Right. But if it's at this stage, aren't you shutting the door once the horse has gone?



> Love your closing phrase btw. I use it all the time. I got off the pot.


We aim to please. And when peeing aim too, please


> My straight answer? Speaking for myself, and my point of view.
> 
> It ain't about her. It's about him. He changes. She is welcome to come along for the ride. She may not. Absolutely nothing may change from her perspective ... but that almost never happens. She still may not want to shag him ... in this case it seems like she NEVER wanted that. But it is highly likely that she will come to see, and interact with him differently.


I don't see why. She didn't care, doesn't care, won't care. Even if she does interact differently, the chances are it won't be "better" just different. And you're under the house when it collapses. If it's just about forcing the issue and getting a reaction, I can think of easier ways. 


> If he's made the changes? Her not coming along is an acceptable outcome instead of feeling like the bottom has fallen out of his life.
> 
> It's that simple.
> 
> I can't tell where your focus is, the solution or the fight?


I just don't see it improving anything, and if it isn't going to make things better, there are less labour-intensive ways of pulling the whole thing down on top of you.


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## stoney1215 (Jun 18, 2012)

Colell said:


> Hello all,
> 
> In short, my wife and I have been married for almost a year now and we are hardly ever intimate (once every 1-2 months) because she says she still has moral issues with sex. How can I help her get past that and see that she is not only doing nothing wrong, but that sex within marriage is a very, very good thing. I on the other hand have a very high sex drive and I'm on the edge physically, mentally, and emotionally because of this.
> 
> ...



this is the damage we do to women mentally with society's views and teachings about sex for women . how can a woman have a healthy view of sex when she is taught that she is not to have sex , not to give away the milk for free , she is a ***** , **** , skank , smut , nasty slob if she has sex . dont have sex unless you are married , and in love . dont have sex too soon , dont have sex with too many people , . if you do you are used up , stretched out , passed around , easy , have no self respect , and no morals . 

and this is what their parents , family , and friends tell them . of course they dont tell them how they lost their virginity at 15 and has had sex with 25 guys including 5 one night stands . 

if you have sex you are letting your dad down . your no longer his little girl , and whats worse sometimes he even calls her a **** , etc.... 

now that we have that pounded into them they should feel free to get married and have a healthy sex life with your husband . who is taught the exact opposite about sex as she is .....


it is sad , disgusting , and shameful how we teach our girls to feel about sex and sexuality .


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## Lea2407 (Jul 14, 2011)

> this is the damage we do to women mentally with society's views and teachings about sex for women . how can a woman have a healthy view of sex when she is taught that she is not to have sex , not to give away the milk for free , she is a ***** , **** , skank , smut , nasty slob if she has sex . dont have sex unless you are married , and in love . dont have sex too soon , dont have sex with too many people , . if you do you are used up , stretched out , passed around , easy , have no self respect , and no morals .
> 
> and this is what their parents , family , and friends tell them . of course they dont tell them how they lost their virginity at 15 and has had sex with 25 guys including 5 one night stands .
> 
> ...


I agree with this completely. I have an extremely similar background to the person you were replying to - married high school sweetheart, both saved ourselves for marriage, very into church, etc. The first few years of our marriage were rough because I couldn't let myself open up sexually.

It took me years and a lot of crying, frustration, arguments, resentment and more to get past the feeling of shame and guilt when it came to my sexuality.

The churches I've experienced seem to act like there is some magic sexuality switch you can turn on and off at will. If you continually suppress all of your sexual desire to avoid "sinning", all of those feelings of guilt and shame don't magically disappear once the ring is on your finger. It's deeply rooted into your psyche that sex is dirty or wrong. 

I had to work very hard to sort out all of my feelings and determine for myself how I truly felt about sex versus what people were telling me I should feel, and it's something I'm continually working on. However, my views have changed drastically over the years and I couldn't be happier. 

I feel so much freer and more in touch with myself now that I'm not constantly weighed down by other's opinions of what's "right" or "wrong", and I can't even explain how much happier my husband is or how much our marriage has improved, physically and emotionally.


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

sounds to me like its not a true love a consummate love and she seems to have lost interest. If she is Christian than how is it morally wrong? sex is not a sin when you are married. To me it seems like you guys have just grown apart and that she is no longer attracted to you in the way she used to be further leading me to believe that its not a true love as a true love has passion intimacy and commitment. There seems to exist a lack of passion and right now a lack of intimacy.

I wish you best of luck

but it seems as if she is mentally checking out of the marriage. You need to get to the bottom of this and ask and find out push to see why she does not want sex with you. Her shutting down when that is mentioned is either cause of mental issues or because she really is afraid to talk about it because she may no longer be physically attracted to you. To me it seem as if you guys never got a chance to see other people and it was convenient for you two to stay together so you marry it was great and you two both looked forward to that. But now she is thinking maybe it was the wrong decision and maybe she was not 100% into it like she thought.


I really hope i am wrong for your sake but her total lack of intimacy and passion is a problem. And if what i am saying is true than its best you divorce as you cannot force someone to fall in love and if someone falls out of love its best to move on. Although if their is ever been an attraction their exist potential for a future attraction to exist again. However attraction and desire to be with another does not equate to a true love and is not the only thing that exists in a happy marriage.

Life is short and if what i said is true than its best to move on (which would be really hard i am sure) and try your luck with someone else so you can be happy. Otherwise if what i said is true and you stay you will only be hurting yourself and it may drive you to cheat and may drive her to cheat as their would exist unhappiness along with a desire to have passion and intimacy but with another as the two of you could not get it together on the same level.



Best of luck


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## Goldmember357 (Jan 31, 2012)

stoney1215 said:


> this is the damage we do to women mentally with society's views and teachings about sex for women . *how can a woman have a healthy view of sex when she is taught that she is not to have sex , not to give away the milk for free , she is a ***** , **** , skank , smut , nasty slob if she has sex . dont have sex unless you are married *, and in love . dont have sex too soon , dont have sex with too many people , . if you do you are used up , stretched out , passed around , easy , have no self respect , and no morals .
> 
> and this is what their parents , family , and friends tell them . of course they dont tell them how they lost their virginity at 15 and has had sex with 25 guys including 5 one night stands .
> 
> ...


:scratchhead:

have you seen the teen pregnancy rates and the stats in regards to lower income teens and sex? have you seen the teen abortions rates? have you seen the % of women who are unmarried who have children?

I would say that we are far from morally right on sex in this country. The Media and many others treat sex as if its nothing only the truly religious population (which is shrinking) and those generally of wealthier backgrounds often adopt a conservative view on sex. 

Its also sad and disgusting that people treat sex as if its nothing that is sad to treat it as nothing and to go around sleeping with everyone. In my experience people of higher intelligence and who make "good decisions" tend to have the longest last marriages. Statistically the more sexual partners you have the more likely you are to get divorced.

I am also a divorce lawyer so what i am saying is true. By and large the divorce rate is the way it is because of a number of reasons not because women are "sexually repressed". In most divorce cases its actually the male that is F#cking stuff up so in turn the female files for divorce. Rarely does it seem to be the females lack of interest in sex or being "sexually repressed".


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