# i think i am doing ok... then i read something like marriagebuilders



## waytooforgiving (Jul 16, 2013)

i think i am feeling ok for a moment about my decision to not R. but then i read the marriagebuilders website which states that i should've been taking care of her needs and figuring out what wasn't being met that caused her to go wayward.

after reading that i feel like i need to reach out to her and do everything i can to make her happy. 

does anyone else believe in that approach?


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

waytooforgiving said:


> i think i am feeling ok for a moment about my decision to not R. but then i read the marriagebuilders website which states that i should've been taking care of her needs and figuring out what wasn't being met that caused her to go wayward.
> 
> after reading that i feel like i need to reach out to her and do everything i can to make her happy.
> 
> does anyone else believe in that approach?


Hi,

I am surprised you read that on that site; either way this is incorrect.

The cause of her cheating was her deciding to cheat.

If you read through the threads here and take note of infidelity on a wider scale - friends, the media, art etc. you will note that good people are cheated on as well as bad. Those that "deserve" to be cheated on aren't cheated on and those that don't "deserve" it, are. 

People cheat because they can. 

There may be problems in your relationship and it is a Good Thing to fix them, but don't fix them with the deluded intention of preventing a future affair.

You were cheated on because your spouse made a decision to do so. You both had the same marriage. You did not decide to cheat.

You need to understand that before you do anything else at all.

Having said that, please do not finish your marriage from anger. That is the wrong reason. Finish it because the other party checked out, broke the vows and left you nothing to repair it with.

Marriages survive infidelity all the time. Sometimes, the marriage doesn't, but the relationship does.

Take a few days out. Talk to friends. Post back here with your thoughts. Don't be hasty. You have time.


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## waytooforgiving (Jul 16, 2013)

Chris989 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am surprised you read that on that site; either way this is incorrect.
> 
> ...


thanks, chris. if you read my other posts you will see that i am not being hasty. i tried, meaning was willing to try R, but she kept lying and seeing the OM ad others. and note that we were not yet married, only engaged.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Please don't do it now. Sleep on it. 

In the mean time, why not make a List what you think her needs are. Under each one, write down what you feel you did and did not do to meet her needs. 

Discussing things may be what you need right now. 

I think the list will give you talking points, if you decide you want to talk with her. You won't forget anything. 

You don't have to make any decisions until you are ready.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

The idea of making someone else to blame for a betrayal is falsehood.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

waytooforgiving said:


> thanks, chris. if you read my other posts you will see that i am not being hasty. i tried, meaning was willing to try R, but she kept lying and seeing the OM ad others. and note that we were not yet married, only engaged.


I'll be honest and a little blunt.

If you aren't married and there are no children, then chalk this one up to experience and run to the hills.

It sounds rather harsh, but you only get to live once and I feel that marrying someone whom has proved they will cheat on you is a Bad Idea.

I don't believe that means the other person is Bad per se, but that there is some dynamic in your relationship which means that the odds are very much against you.

The above couple of paragraphs are a distillation of a 44 year old man that's been through the mill and experienced infidelity at the wrong end of a marriage - the one where I had sunk 20 years into it and have 2 young children that would suffer from a broken home. A quote:

"Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth". 

Take the above for what it's worth...


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

waytooforgiving said:


> i tried, meaning was willing to try R, but she kept lying and seeing the OM ad others. and note that we were not yet married, only engaged.


 I have read your posts and you are doing the right thing moving on. You tried to give R a chance but she kept sneaking around and never broke off contact with the affair partner (AP). This is the early years of your relationship, which is suppose to be some of the best most loving years. It gets harder over time when you have children and other pressures of life. If she is cheating now, she will cheat again later. Move on and do not look back. Be glad that you found out now before children and alimony become a factor, as cheating is not a factor in divorce settlements anymore. You dodged a bullet.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

You are not married. You're engaged. She's showing you what she is like right now. A cheater. Many do not even have that opportunity of knowing that their future wife is a cheater. You have been given a glimpse of what your future will be like with her. Do not ever expect her to change once the wedding vows is said.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I'm probably one of the few TAM members proponents of second chances and sugesting the possibility of change and redemption.

It's not your case, there's no chance in hell your ex fiance would change. Any kind of relationship with her will be a huge mistake on your part.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

waytooforgiving said:


> i think i am feeling ok for a moment about my decision to not R. but then i read the marriagebuilders website which states that i should've been taking care of her needs and figuring out what wasn't being met that caused her to go wayward.
> 
> after reading that i feel like i need to reach out to her and do everything i can to make her happy.
> 
> does anyone else believe in that approach?


In your case? No.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

Stay away from that site! They have an unrealistic view of reconciliation and marriage in general. Reconciliation does not fix cheaters and will not prevent you from being cheated onif your partner doesn't want to change.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

You did the right thing breaking up with her. Her cheating had nothing to do with you not meeting her needs. She is a broken and dysfunctional person who needs validation from many men to feel like she has worth. She does not need to be married. Or even dating. She needs to be in intensive therapy to find out why she is so messed up. 

I will bet you she was most likely molested or sexually assaulted at some time during her growing years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

LostViking said:


> You did the right thing breaking up with her. Her cheating had nothing to do with you not meeting her needs. She is a broken and dysfunctional person who needs validation from many men to feel like she has worth. She does not need to be married. Or even dating. She needs to be in intensive therapy to find out why she is so messed up.
> 
> I will bet you she was most likely molested or sexually assaulted at some time during her growing years.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

waytooforgiving said:


> i think i am feeling ok for a moment about my decision to not R. but then i read the marriagebuilders website which states that i should've been taking care of her needs and figuring out what wasn't being met that caused her to go wayward.
> 
> after reading that i feel like i need to reach out to her and do everything i can to make her happy.
> 
> does anyone else believe in that approach?


People on this forum tend to not like the MB approach. They are more into slash and burn on marriages if anyone cheats. This is especially true if the wife cheats.

I have seen marriage builders save a lot or marriage. So I think you ought to give it a try. Read the book "Surviving an Affair" by Dr. Harley. The book is a quick read. After you have read the book, then decide what you want to do.

Keep in mind that in the book he says that most people can only do Plan A for a couple of weeks. After that if the WS does not give up the affair it's time to move on.

Is your WS still in the affair?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

aug said:


> You are not married. You're engaged. She's showing you what she is like right now. A cheater. Many do not even have that opportunity of knowing that their future wife is a cheater. You have been given a glimpse of what your future will be like with her. Do not ever expect her to change once the wedding vows is said.


Oh, the OP is engage? 

Then move on.


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## waytooforgiving (Jul 16, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> Is your WS still in the affair?


yes. she was out of it for maybe a week, but they kept in contact the entire time. now that i've told her i am done, she has gone back to him 100%.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Dude, think of this way,

Engagement is like a job interview.

She basically stole from the company during the interview process, and then is acting surprised that she didn't get the job,

Seriously, she totally failed the interview spectacularly.

You need to start immediately interviewing new candidates.


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

waytooforgiving said:


> yes. she was out of it for maybe a week, but they kept in contact the entire time. now that i've told her i am done, she has gone back to him 100%.


She made her decision. And it's your job now to pick up the pieces and move on to a happier and healthier life without her. Odds are they won't stay together once the honeymoon is over, but that's not your problem anymore.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

waytooforgiving said:


> yes. she was out of it for maybe a week, but they kept in contact the entire time. now that i've told her i am done, she has gone back to him 100%.


Yes and in a few months down the road she will cheat on him. Take comfort in that. No one man will ever be enough for her. Not unless she gets help and fixes herself. 

Her cheating had nothing to do with what you did or did not do for her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

Get down on your knees and thank whatever god you pray to that he or she saved you from marrying the town bicycle. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

LostViking said:


> Get down on your knees and thank whatever god you pray to that he or she saved you from marrying the town bicycle.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Drove that straight down the fairway Lost if only he knew how lucky he was.:iagree::iagree:


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> The idea of making someone else to blame for a betrayal is falsehood.



No, I disagree. I think that is as wrong as any black and white statement. I see a lot of harshness from hurt posters on this forum. They have in general a tendency to overlook the reasons for cheating. So the balance is not quite OK because many spouses make their marriage to a disfunctional relation and the partner looking for love somewhere else is a natural, mechanic, solution for a problem.

That is not OK with the contract side of marriage, but that is the unloving situation itself also not.

But that is a general view, so you can't implement that on a particular situation. So the view of the other posters as far as arguments based on facts is important for this case.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> No, I disagree. I think that is as wrong as any black and white statement. I see a lot of harshness from hurt posters on this forum. They have in general a tendency to overlook the reasons for cheating. So the balance is not quite OK because many spouses make their marriage to a disfunctional relation and the partner looking for love somewhere else is a natural, mechanic, solution for a problem.
> 
> That is not OK with the contract side of marriage, but that is the unloving situation itself also not.
> 
> But that is a general view, so you can't implement that on a particular situation. So the view of the other posters as far as arguments based on facts is important for this case.


The _*reason*_ for somebody cheating is that they _*chose*_ to cheat.

Every time. No exceptions. This is a black and white statement and it is correct.

They may _justify_ their _decision_ in all sorts of ways. 

They may feel motivated, entitled or justified in making that choice, but choice it is.

Nobody is _*forced*_ to cheat, hence it is a _*choice*_.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

waytooforgiving said:


> i tried, meaning was willing to try R, .


You did R. You tried to meet her need and she chose to play games. You realize that means you tried to "do everything i can to make her happy."


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## waytooforgiving (Jul 16, 2013)

phillybeffandswiss said:


> You did R. You tried to meet her need and she chose to play games. You realize that means you tried to "do everything i can to make her happy."


But there's the problem. Did I really try? I was trying to decide if I could/would do R. I never jumped in and gave it my all. So I truthfully didn't try to meet her needs. As a side note, the R process lasted all of 4 weeks...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

waytooforgiving said:


> But there's the problem. Did I really try? I was trying to decide if I could/would do R. I never jumped in and gave it my all. So I truthfully didn't try to meet her needs. As a side note, the R process lasted all of 4 weeks...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is no problem. She should have acted differently. She didn't. 

Move on. Count yourself lucky you aren't a bunch of years and several children down the road with this person.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Then do not read sites like that. In general I find TAM is all I need. And is all you can trust. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JMGrey (Dec 19, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> The _*reason*_ for somebody cheating is that they _*chose*_ to cheat.
> 
> Every time. No exceptions. This is a black and white statement and it is correct.
> 
> ...


Don't bother, mate. To SLL, infidelity is explainable and the BS is usually culpable in some way. I've seen it in dozens of different threads. He just doesn't buy that infidelity is morally and ethically indefensible.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

What you have in front of you is a preview of what your life will be like with her. If your with a woman who isn't giving you the common decency of being honest, respectful and faithful now while your single, what makes you think that she will be any different when your married. Compound that with a mortgage and children and it's a recipe for a really rough road your going to be traveling. 

Right now you have a chance to wipe your slate clean and find the right woman who will also give you the same love and respect that you give her. The way I see it is if you continue with a woman who will blatantly disrespect you and cheat, the only thing you'll be doing is living the rest of your married life looking over your shoulder, always wondering in the back of your mind, is she doing what she says she's doing. Is she where she says she is. Is she with who she says she's with. Friend. That is no way to have a life or have peace of mind.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Keep in mind that in the book he says that most people can only do Plan A for a couple of weeks. After that if the WS does not give up the affair it's time to move on.


The reason I don't like MB is twofold, related to what you wrote. 

First, if the BS is a Nice Guy he is going to get chewed up with the philosophy that he made mistakes and has to work on meeting her needs. This is a flaw in the NG and it will cause him to take on all the blame himself.

Secondly, people seem to get stuck in Plan A. They rugsweep and blameshift. The WS doesn't really have consequences. Especially on the forums there seems to be a strong message that the BS is obligated to love the WS and to do the heavy lifting to save the marriage.

I am all for saving a marriage if it can be a good one, even after infidelity. MB seems generally to be a higher risk of failure approach. For some people and some situations it probably works fine. For me and other Nice Guys it is best to stay far away from MB.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

waytooforgiving said:


> But there's the problem. Did I really try? I was trying to decide if I could/would do R. I never jumped in and gave it my all. So I truthfully didn't try to meet her needs. As a side note, the R process lasted all of 4 weeks...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Folks who've been down this road have tried to tell you that "meeting her needs" is a bottomless pit. You keep coming back wanting someone to tell you, yes, if you meet her need everything will turn out hunky dory. Therefore, I'm telling you what you want to hear. Go back, plead for her to forgive you, and tell her to please come back so you can devote yourself to pleasing her.
When you catch her with another guy, come back here and tell me how stupid I was for recommending that to you.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

:iagree::iagree:


LostViking said:


> Get down on your knees and thank whatever god you pray to that he or she saved you from marrying the town bicycle.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Nsweet (Mar 3, 2012)

"His Needs: Her Needs"... Yeah, I've got a better book in mind it's called _"My Needs: Your Needs"_, it's all about reconciling *within reason* and seeing through all the bullsh!t cheaters say when they give you a never ending list of needs to fulfill. 

Screw plan A and plan B, I'll give you two options... Can you live like this or not? Because half of all BSs are not willing to put up with waiting out the affair before living their own life, so why not tell it like it is and have them not bei their spouses plan B while they have some freakin fun for once.

FYI, this was the book I read during my W's affair and I just can't stand their advice for dealing with affairs. They're great for marriage but way too lenient and patient on cheating spouses. They don't need more of your love and encouragement, they need an ultimatum and you to make the decision for them... Show tough love but be willing to listen to them and be open to reconciliation if they show consistent change and actually try.


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## waytooforgiving (Jul 16, 2013)

ThePheonix said:


> Folks who've been down this road have tried to tell you that "meeting her needs" is a bottomless pit. You keep coming back wanting someone to tell you, yes, if you meet her need everything will turn out hunky dory. Therefore, I'm telling you what you want to hear. Go back, plead for her to forgive you, and tell her to please come back so you can devote yourself to pleasing her.
> When you catch her with another guy, come back here and tell me how stupid I was for recommending that to you.


just the thought of doing that makes me sick!

while i know what you say (or rather have said), and what all others are posting is true, i just can't seem to shake it... i hope doing so comes sooner than later!


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

waytooforgiving said:


> But there's the problem. Did I really try? I was trying to decide if I could/would do R. I never jumped in and gave it my all. So I truthfully didn't try to meet her needs. As a side note, the R process lasted all of 4 weeks...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don't understand. R is a precious, precious gift given by the BS (you) after they have earned a shot at R by doing the heavy lifting.

You cannot force R, you tried, but you cannot. She NEVER ended the affair. You said she was out of it for a week, but kept in contact the whole time. That means the affair NEVER ended, understand that. 

Meeting her needs and fixing yourself is what you do AFTER the the affair is truly ended, that you have verified NC, and AFTER she has done the heavy lifting to help heal you. 

Stay away from Marriage Builders, they encourage the betrayed to compete with the OM/OW, when it's simply impossible to keep with them. If you look through their site, its full of mega threads, where the betrayed live in the hell of limbo and try to nice their cheater out of the affair and compete with the OM/OW. Almost all of them end up in Plan B, with is NC and headed toward D.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

waytooforgiving said:


> just the thought of doing that makes me sick!
> 
> while i know what you say (or rather have said), and what all others are posting is true, i just can't seem to shake it... i hope doing so comes sooner than later!


The reason you are feeling this way is that you are on the low point of the Emotional Roller Coaster. Everyone rides the ERC, and we all hit the high points, when we are strong, and the low points, when we feel weak and want the cheater back. 

Stay strong through this low point on the ERC.


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## jnj express (Mar 28, 2011)

MB---seems to promote---the mge, and the R---over the needs of the betrayed

Is it that living a life in/full of misery, just to satisfy the principles of R, is what MB, wants

Its what the betrayed can handle----if the betrayed, cannot live with what the cheater did to them---then that should be it---even with kids involved---life is precious, and life should be lived as best as possible, in happiness---with peace of mind, and carefree days---that will never happen, if betrayed I=stays with a cheater, especially a cheater, who won't do the heavy lifting to help betrayed thru the hard times, of getting over the infidelity


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## badcompany (Aug 4, 2010)

Ugh.....time to take the red pill and see reality. Not even married yet? Get rid of her!


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Don't feel guilty about your choice she didn't feel any guilt with her actions, you may feel sadness at the way it turned out and you may feel bad that you didn't treat her perfectly but is anyone perfect in a relationship? If she was that unhappy then just leave or at least put in the work and try to make it better if it still doesn't work then go, you are not even married and she bailed on your relationship. Consider yourself lucky that you didn't get married and learn from your mistakes, make sure the next person you have a relationship with you do all those "things" you think you did not do for her but trust me and others here you are not the reason she cheated and ruined what you two had she is.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

I remember your other threads. You said she was married before and was a serial cheater to her ex H. I asked you then why you got involved with a serial cheater, but you chose not to answer that ?

Maybe if you would take some time to answer that question, if not for here then at least for yourself, you would see that you are wasting your time with this cheater.


BTW. were your involved with her when she was still married ? Were you her exit affair ?


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## waytooforgiving (Jul 16, 2013)

barbados said:


> I remember your other threads. You said she was married before and was a serial cheater to her ex H. I asked you then why you got involved with a serial cheater, but you chose not to answer that ?
> 
> Maybe if you would take some time to answer that question, if not for here then at least for yourself, you would see that you are wasting your time with this cheater.
> 
> ...


sorry barbados, i didn't intentionally ignore your previous question about why i got involved with her to begin with.

to answer your questions, yes, i was her exit affair. i am guilty of being the OM. and it is a guilt that i will never forgive myself for. why did i choose to date her? because she was "sparkly" as chump lady would say. she was all about me. i was still in a dark place from a previous break-up. i was desperate for love and attention, and she gave it to me. i believed she would treat me different than she did her husband. she blamed her husband for everything and i believed it. 

from the very beginning the relationship was drama filled and toxic. within a couple of days of her moving in she was already threatening to move out. and it just went down hill from there... perhaps that is why it was so hard to do "all the right things", IE show affection, be romantic and passionate, etc.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

She played you. Accept it and move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, even Marriage Builders (which I like in general) does not suggest that anyone should marry a person who cheats on them during the engagement. They don't even suggest that every marriage either can or should be saved. There are people out there who just aren't marriage material. Your current lady is one of them.

So, get some therapy to help you with your self-esteem issues and then just give it some time. Date, go out and find yourself a nice, _unattached_, girl who wants to be faithful and might actually have a chance of being so. After you've found her and determined that she's not batsh!t crazy like your current fiancé, then you can talk about your emotional needs and her emotional needs.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

Rowan said:


> OP, even Marriage Builders (which I like in general) does not suggest that anyone should marry a person who cheats on them during the engagement. They don't even suggest that every marriage either can or should be saved. There are people out there who just aren't marriage material. Your current lady is one of them.
> 
> So, get some therapy to help you with your self-esteem issues and then just give it some time. Date, go out and find yourself a nice, _unattached_, girl who wants to be faithful and might actually have a chance of being so. After you've found her and determined that she's not batsh!t crazy like your current fiancé, then you can talk about your emotional needs and her emotional needs.


:iagree: This.


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## GROUNDPOUNDER (Mar 8, 2013)

waytooforgiving said:


> sorry barbados, i didn't intentionally ignore your previous question about why i got involved with her to begin with.
> 
> to answer your questions, yes, i was her exit affair. i am guilty of being the OM. and it is a guilt that i will never forgive myself for. why did i choose to date her? because she was "sparkly" as chump lady would say. she was all about me. i was still in a dark place from a previous break-up. i was desperate for love and attention, and she gave it to me. i believed she would treat me different than she did her husband. she blamed her husband for everything and i believed it.
> 
> from the very beginning the relationship was drama filled and toxic. within a couple of days of her moving in she was already threatening to move out. and it just went down hill from there... perhaps that is why it was so hard to do "all the right things", IE show affection, be romantic and passionate, etc.


Many would say that you're getting what you deserve. Reaping what you have sown, etc..

There's some truth to this. It's time for you to move on. NEVER get involved with a married/attached women again and this will probably never happen to you, again...

If you stay with her, get use to all this pain because there's a whole lot more headin' your way.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

To the OP.

At this point you are in love with the *idea* of your fiance. The actual fiance is in love with someone else. She never exposed her true self to you and therefore you are in love with an illusion that persists in your mind because it's too painful to let it go. Everything she said she felt about you was not completely true and you need to come to grips with that and move on. 

Peace


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

waytooforgiving said:


> sorry barbados, i didn't intentionally ignore your previous question about why i got involved with her to begin with.
> 
> to answer your questions, yes, i was her exit affair. i am guilty of being the OM. and it is a guilt that i will never forgive myself for. why did i choose to date her? because she was "sparkly" as chump lady would say. she was all about me. i was still in a dark place from a previous break-up. i was desperate for love and attention, and she gave it to me. i believed she would treat me different than she did her husband. she blamed her husband for everything and i believed it.
> 
> from the very beginning the relationship was drama filled and toxic. within a couple of days of her moving in she was already threatening to move out. and it just went down hill from there... perhaps that is why it was so hard to do "all the right things", IE show affection, be romantic and passionate, etc.


Appreciate the honest response. I realize its not easy to talk about those feelings.

So OK, it then sounds like a push then. She used you to get out of her marriage, you used her to feel better about yourself and bask in a lot of "me" attention she was giving you.

Now you realize that she is a serial cheater, and is simply going to be this type of person in life. You dodged a bullet by not being married, and by not having kids. So let it go and move on. There are good women out there.

You say you felt guilty about being the OM, so let the pain you're feeling now be your Karma wake up call, and be happy moving forward without her. Good Luck


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

waytooforgiving said:


> i think i am feeling ok for a moment about my decision to not R. but then i read the marriagebuilders website which states that i should've been taking care of her needs and figuring out what wasn't being met that caused her to go wayward.
> 
> after reading that i feel like i need to reach out to her and do everything i can to make her happy.
> 
> does anyone else believe in that approach?


*Absolutely not!* Your wife choosing to sleep with someone else is not your fault. If you were such a bad husband she should have left you, not get underneath another man. I don't read that site because it just makes excuses for miscreants. Move froward with you plans; you are doing the right thing. If she is truly remorseful it will show during the road to divorce. At that point you can decide if you want her back; don't do that now.


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## waytooforgiving (Jul 16, 2013)

here is what i wrote today, but will not be sending... just posting to get it out of my system.

"I absolutely hate how things have ended up. I really really do. All I wanted was full honesty but my gut was telling me that's not what I was getting. I know he was still in the picture, and you confirmed that when you wouldn't agree to a conversation with him where we lay it all out and put an end to the nonsense. Even if I had learned there was still contact going on I would have been willing to forgive it so long as every single action in the world would've been taken to show me repeatedly that you were ready to focus on me and us, and finally end all contact with him.

I know I did things that should not have been done. I regret everyday the things I did, and the things I didn't do. I am sorry for that, and I will forever be sorry. Hopefully one day you can forgive me too. 

My end game for us was always a happy, blissful life together. All I wanted was for us to come back together so we could start a family and be the couple that beat the odds. Imagine looking back in 50 years and being able to see "wow, we did it"!

I just hope that one day you are happy. I hope you can find your own happiness and I hope he can give you happiness too. That is my gift of love to you - to be happy. I just want you to be happy. If you choose to be happy with him, or even alone, I will not be an obstacle in your way.

I love you, and I wish we were still each others person."


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

You gained this relationship by cheating.

She is now cheating.

You aren't married.

Your reaction to all of this is not a little ironic.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

I know it doesn't feel that way now but you have no idea how lucky you really are... No Kids?, Mortgage?, Duel Assets?










It coulda been MUCH worse.

just sayin.

lol.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

The letter is drippy. Don't send it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

waytooforgiving said:


> while i know what you say (or rather have said), and what all others are posting is true, i just can't seem to shake it... i hope doing so comes sooner than later!


There are two things I've discovered over the years. One, it doesn't matter how much you love her, want the relationship to work, need her, etc. If she doesn't feel the same way, you're going nowhere with it.
Two, relationships are like investments. Some pay off, some don't. And when they don't you not only lose the "income", you also lose what you've put into it. And it doesn't go down very well. Like my grandpaw would say, "Ainsi va la vie" my man.


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

waytooforgiving said:


> i think i am feeling ok for a moment about my decision to not R. but then i read the marriagebuilders website which states that i should've been taking care of her needs and figuring out what wasn't being met that caused her to go wayward.
> 
> after reading that i feel like i need to reach out to her and do everything i can to make her happy.
> 
> does anyone else believe in that approach?


That approach is what your natural instincts would tend to have you do.

However if you know that you had a descent relationship and both of your needs where met, she may have cheated on you for greed alone...

So you cannot reward a cheater with good behavior or gift or dopamine hits. They are supposed to feel consequence.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

waytooforgiving....I know someone else already mentioned this but...

If what you got from reading Marriage Builders was that she cheated because you weren't fulfilling her needs, you didn't read enough of the material to really understand it.

Marriage Builders is about MARRIAGE. Your relationship was not a marriage. Marriage Builders would advise you to RUN FAR AND FAST from your current relationship and to NEVER marry a known cheater.

Although you are now a known cheater/home-wrecker too so Marriage Builders would also advise a woman not to marry you, either.

Even if a couple is married, Marriage Builders advises divorce in the case of infidelity if there are no children.

So as you can see...you didn't read enough of it to understand their concepts.

Their concepts about MARRIAGE don't apply to short term, unmarried relationships. They would consider you AND your girlfriend to both be free agents anyway.


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## waytooforgiving (Jul 16, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> waytooforgiving....I know someone else already mentioned this but...
> 
> If what you got from reading Marriage Builders was that she cheated because you weren't fulfilling her needs, you didn't read enough of the material to really understand it.
> 
> ...


I guess I am a cheater/home wrecker. That's another pill to swallow and pain to deal with. 

For what it's worth, she claimed to have already filed for divorce. It wasn't until later that I learned that to not be true. 

We did long distance the first two months. She then relocated to be with me. That's when I found out she hadn't really filed. Guess it really doesn't make a difference. 

It was then that the problems started. 

Over time I learned she had multiple affairs on her husband, but I stuck around for 4 years enduring the pain of the toxic relationship. In those four years she had four "known" affairs. She hasn't admitted to them but her friend has told me about them, and everything the friend has told me has been truth so far. Last week I saw texts screen shots of her sexting with one of the earlier APs. This was done when we were still thinking about R. 

I'm a coward and I know it... Both for being the OM and for wanting her to want me bad enough to work through things.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

waytooforgiving said:


> I guess I am a cheater/home wrecker. That's another pill to swallow and pain to deal with.
> 
> For what it's worth, she claimed to have already filed for divorce. It wasn't until later that I learned that to not be true.
> 
> ...


Take this as a learning experience. Once again, we see that the saying is true: If they cheat with you, they will cheat ON you. Her betrayed husband would probably be laughing his ass off if he knew, or he wouldn't be surprised. Either way, you now know what it feels like to be betrayed, so you know how her betrayed husband feels.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for any OM, in fact, none at all. But if you're sorry for what you've done, then move on from this serial cheater because now you know she's doing to you, what she did to her ex-betrayed husband. Since she's a serial cheater, the fact is, if she wasn't cheating with you, it would have been some other man.


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## waytooforgiving (Jul 16, 2013)

well, its 9:50 AM and i've already cried 4 times today. good gosh, when does the roller coaster go up? if even for an hour, would be nice to get away from this low spot.

its so hard that i have decided i am taking my gun to a friends. this morning as i lay in bed unable to face the day the thought of pulling it out to end the pain crossed my mind. i don't think i would do something so stupid, but i am getting rid of it for now.

i have an IC session this afternoon. i hope it helps. i have been seeing her every week since D-Day (3 months ago), and even before. the entire time it has been to vent/complain/ask for advice on R. i am hoping now i can switch it to working on ridding the pain and fixing whats in me that desires to STILL want to be with her.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Brother,

You need to give that gun over to someone you trust for safe keeping.

Obviously you are not thinking straight. Tell you IC. She needs to help you with this.

You don't need anyone to validate you. Stop thinking of R. Focus on getting yourself better. Eat, exercise, and see the sun!


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Read "The Mood Cure" by Julia Ross. Nutritional help for mood issues. Simple, cheap, and it works for a lot of people.


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## Enginerd (May 24, 2011)

waytooforgiving said:


> well, its 9:50 AM and i've already cried 4 times today. good gosh, when does the roller coaster go up? if even for an hour, would be nice to get away from this low spot.
> 
> its so hard that i have decided i am taking my gun to a friends. this morning as i lay in bed unable to face the day the thought of pulling it out to end the pain crossed my mind. i don't think i would do something so stupid, but i am getting rid of it for now.
> 
> i have an IC session this afternoon. i hope it helps. i have been seeing her every week since D-Day (3 months ago), and even before. the entire time it has been to vent/complain/ask for advice on R. i am hoping now i can switch it to working on ridding the pain and fixing whats in me that desires to STILL want to be with her.



Just remember that your feelings are temporary and will subside very soon. This woman is not worth hurting yourself over so get that **** out of your mind ASAP. Don't isolate yourself and get some serious exercise today. Stay away from alchohol for a long while. 

Peace


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> The _*reason*_ for somebody cheating is that they _*chose*_ to cheat.
> 
> Every time. No exceptions. This is a black and white statement and it is correct.
> 
> ...


I am in Berlin now. Tired of the Nazi systems. Tired of their propaganda.

Your logic is wrong. 

Your enforcing of a statement is wrong.

One question is not answered in this city: Why did the Germans do it, Why did they abondon free thinking, and How could they accept the false retoric of the Nazi's.

It is funny you just answered my question. The majority of people are not able to think.


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## Chris989 (Jul 3, 2012)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I am in Berlin now. Tired of the Nazi systems. Tired of their propaganda.
> 
> Your logic is wrong.
> 
> ...


I made one reply, then deleted it (it wasn't insulting). I typed another, then discarded it.

Your statement is pretty shockingly offensive in lots of ways. I did not want to leave it unchallenged, but I do not want to be part of a threadjack either.

Given the deeply offensive implication you make, however, I feel that to not reply would be to somehow condone what you said.

I utterly reject what you have said and do not want to be associated with your comments.


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## waytooforgiving (Jul 16, 2013)

See_Listen_Love said:


> I am in Berlin now. Tired of the Nazi systems. Tired of their propaganda.
> 
> Your logic is wrong.
> 
> ...


what does this have to do with my situation?


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Nothing.


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## ArmyofJuan (Dec 29, 2010)

waytooforgiving said:


> I'm a coward and I know it... Both for being the OM and for wanting her to want me bad enough to work through things.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You never stood a chance, you were a rebound and even though you were "engaged" odds are even without her cheating you wouldn't have made it down the isle.

This was doomed from the day you met her. These types of relationships work out as often as winning the lotto. 

Learn to avoid situations like this in the future.


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## brokenbythis (Aug 21, 2011)

waytooforgiving said:


> i think i am feeling ok for a moment about my decision to not R. but then i read the marriagebuilders website which states that *i should've been taking care of her needs and figuring out what wasn't being met that caused her to go wayward*.
> 
> after reading that i feel like i need to reach out to her and do everything i can to make her happy.
> 
> does anyone else believe in that approach?


[email protected]


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

waytooforgiving said:


> what does this have to do with my situation?


Well, the most answers you got on your question what to think about the ideas you read on marriagebuilders, were, straight line reasoning, and just wrong,* logically.*

So when reasoning is actually not reasoning because of that the conclusion of an opinion is wrongly formed.

(Now on the issue of the how and why from the holocaust and the nazi's display's how wrong thinking, or not thinking at all can be accepted by society itself, and presented as 'the truth'.)

Black and white thinking is maybe a hallmark of 'not thinking/not thinking right'.

That's the case, in my opinion, in the advises you got. While the marriage builders information may not apply to your situation it is not wrong in itself as you might conclude from the other posters' comments.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Chris989 said:


> I made one reply, then deleted it (it wasn't insulting). I typed another, then discarded it.
> 
> Your statement is pretty shockingly offensive in lots of ways. I did not want to leave it unchallenged, but I do not want to be part of a threadjack either.
> 
> ...


It is not personal, it is just about logic and wrong way of thinking in respect to cheating. Sorry.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

SLL,

I think your point is that all human interactions are situational in nature, and this includes infidelity.

So in a situation where the BS has been a moron and helped create a bad marriage, then he/she is also then to blame for the cheating that occurs.

This sounds logical, but you are mistaken because you falsely rob the WS of part of their nature. The part I speak of is their own capacity of free will as an independent actor.

They were not forced to cheat. In fact, they undoubtedly had many other acceptable options they could have taken other than lying to and betraying their spouse, such as giving an ultimatum to the BS to change or they would divorce. Or, they could just divorce if their heart is no longer in the relationship.

These are acceptable and upstanding actions for a dissatisfied partner to take if they are unhappy with the relationship.

Lying to and betraying their spouse, as well as their family unit as a whole if children are involved, is not looked on as an honorable or correct way of addressing problems.

In fact, such stupidity almost universally makes the problems/crisis in the relationship worse, if not unfix-able.

We all have sympathy for a person who is in a bad relationship. Most, if not all of us, would offer such a person advice to put their foot down and demand change.

But I doubt many would advise them to throw gasoline on a fire by having an affair, because logically this 'solution' solves nothing and only makes the relationship worse.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> SLL,
> 
> I think your point is that all human interactions are situational in nature, and this includes infidelity.
> Yes, that is one of my points.
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

waytooforgiving said:


> i think i am feeling ok for a moment about my decision to not R. but then i read the marriagebuilders website which states that i should've been taking care of her needs and figuring out what wasn't being met that caused her to go wayward.
> 
> after reading that i feel like i need to reach out to her and do everything i can to make her happy.
> 
> does anyone else believe in that approach?


I FIRMLY believe in Harley's book His Needs Her Needs and in using his Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaire, and in spending 15 hours a week together to tend for your love for each other. 

That said, just about anything that comes out of the marriagebuilders forums is not only suspect, but probably dangerous. Please trust me, do not go there (says someone with a lot of insider information about the people there).


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

SLL,

While I do not agree with some of your conclusions and thoughts on these issues, I do see the argument you are making and I respect your right to your own opinions on these matters, in particular since there is no way to establish absolute truth in these things.

In particular, I would like to address two of your points though.

Firstly, I would agree with you that fundamentally all standards and opinions in life are subjective in nature. The only 'objective' truths in this world are natural laws such as gravity. ALL human interactions and beliefs are ultimately subjective. No matter how many people come to eventually decide something is truth does not make it absolutely or objectively so.

As John Stuart Mill wrote, if all of humanity save one were of one opinion, they would still be as wrong to force that opinion on the dissenter as he would be to force his on the rest of mankind.

This works fine in discussing theories on truth. But there is a real world where some sort of common standard must be established if human interactions and society are to take place. When you say that it is possible for the WS to have an excuse for cheating that is real for them, that is true, but society at large is still entitled to reject this 'truth' in favor of a common standard for the purpose of having an ordered society instead of chaotic individualism that would surely destroy such social cohesion.

So in effect, the 'truth' of the justifications for a WS has no bearing in the real world since society DOES have a vested interest in rejecting these in order to preserve the common good of society. We have to be able to live together for our own survival as a species. Rampant subjective individualism would destroy this possibility.

And one could make this same argument about a lot more issues than simply infidelity.

Secondly, you are correct that there is a lot of philosophical debate on the reality of free will. It is a complex and difficult issue.

But once again, I think the reality of actual life experience has to intervene to allow us to function in the world.

In the end, I think Samuel Johnson addressed the issue best from a practical (not necessarily a philosophical) view when he said to James Boswell, " We know our will is free and there's an end on it....All theory is against the freedom of the will, all experience for it."

The point as it relates to your argument is, practically, whether the will is truly free or not (at this point in science, an unprovable philosophical argument) is a moot point. We understand and experience our choices in life as true free will.

We cannot abandon this practical experience we all have of life in favor of an unprovable philosophical/theoretical argument that our choices are not truly free but only seem so.

So we can speak of WS 'choosing' to cheat as independent actors in life. If we are going to abandon this, then one can justly argue why stop only with infidelity. We should treat crime similarly and empty prisons since no one in them really had free will in choosing to commit their acts.

Obviously, human society could never survive such an abandonment of responsibility by its members. No one, not even a mass murderer or horrible tyrant could be held accountable because they would simply be following what they were preordained to do.

So, I would argue that your disputing the free choice involved in deciding to cheat is best left in the realm of theory and philosophy, and should not be trotted out as a mitigating factor that should lesson our judgement of a WS.


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## See_Listen_Love (Jun 28, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> ....
> This works fine in discussing theories on truth. But there is a real world where some sort of common standard must be established if human interactions and society are to take place. When you say that it is possible for the WS to have an excuse for cheating that is real for them, that is true, but society at large is still entitled to reject this 'truth' in favor of a common standard for the purpose of having an ordered society instead of chaotic individualism that would surely destroy such social cohesion.
> 
> So in effect, the 'truth' of the justifications for a WS has no bearing in the real world since society DOES have a vested interest in rejecting these in order to preserve the common good of society. We have to be able to live together for our own survival as a species. Rampant subjective individualism would destroy this possibility.


I think the development of the No Fault Divorce legislation shows you are not right. The interest of society has changed, adulterers are not anymore sent to prison or worse, and the views of the adulterers are accepted with no questions asked. For Practical Reasons! So it is no theoretical point.




> Secondly, you are correct that there is a lot of philosophical debate on the reality of free will. It is a complex and difficult issue.
> ...
> The point as it relates to your argument is, practically, whether the will is truly free or not (at this point in science, an unprovable philosophical argument) is a moot point. We understand and experience our choices in life as true free will.
> 
> ...


The issue of free will is coming from the brain science. The ideas about of the programmed neural pathways tell us that thinking might be a complex but predictable process.

The impulses to the braincell are processed like in a computer. So the free will is maybe not existing. Unless we assume a soul outside of the brain, but even then a lot of reacting is done automatically.

Not philosophy but medical science, so the practical application is clear.

I would like to mention I learned recently that the start of smoking by women was a deliberate designed change in the perception of smoking, part as an experiment and part as a method to double the consumer market in favor of the tabacco industry.

While the persons think they make a decision to smoke, and see it vehemently as the right to choose, to execute their free will, they are in reality in a programmed and controlled mind program!

But do not think I deny the existence of the free will, as a concept it does, and it is possible for humans to execute a free will.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

SLL,

It is true that government and the legal system are no longer in the business of punishing adultery.

I do not believe that this represents a shift in public opinion that cheating is now acceptable if you can find a good enough excuse/justification. In fact large majorities of people in every study done in recent years still believe infidelity is wrong and deplorable conduct.

Also, I would reject the idea that the legal code necessarily sets the standards of ACCEPTABLE behavior. Rather it establishes what is ALLOWABLE. There are many things we are legally allowed to do, but we will still be disapproved of if we engage in these actions.

Just because the legal system has abandoned the fight, primarily for monetary and time reasons in the justice system, does not mean the rest of us have to surrender the standards/principles of behavior the majority accepts. Social condemnation and judgement are still legitimate tools to use on technically legal, but commonly rejected, acts and behaviors.

J.S.Mill pointed this out as well. He argued it was wrong to use the force of LAW to compel a dissenter to abide by a commonly accepted standard/belief, but he also said society was equally within its prerogative to condemn and shun a person who chose to engage in actions that the majority had rejected.

So, I think it is still legitimate for the 'court' of public opinion to refuse to accept the crappy behavior and excuses of WS's and enforce through condemning and social disapproval the standards that an average of eighty percent of people in Western, liberal, democracies disapprove of, and you're not going to find any more 'cheater' friendly societies on the face of the earth.

As far as the brain science you mention, I completely agree with you that the science is pointing in that direction. It is great proof that the philosophers of the past who questioned the reality of free will and argued for a more 'mechanical' view of life and humanity (going back to Democritus in Ancient Greece), may very well have been right to a large extent. 

I still do not think the science is there to disprove free will though. It has definitely established preconditioning in thought processes and patterns, but these do not amount (in my opinion) to a rejection of human volition in the final analysis.

In other words, our brains may indeed be shaped individually to 'flow' or think in predetermined ways, such as the 'inherited' nature of addictive behavior patterns, but ultimately human choice, in my view, has the final say.


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