# Why wont my husband just admit he doesnt love me?



## toolate

Couple things and I will keep this short... he punched me the other day and is now withholding affection from me, but then he balanced it with "if I wanted to have left you, I would have." WTF? Why would he want to stay with someone he values so little that he can punch? Is punching so easy for strong, big men that its not as big a deal to him that he punched me as it is to me? To me, I couldnt hit someone that I love and dont understand how someone else could... but maybe Im wrong on this one. men, could you hit someone you love out of frustration and not hate?


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## chillymorn

toolate said:


> Couple things and I will keep this short... he punched me the other day and is now withholding affection from me, but then he balanced it with "if I wanted to have left you, I would have." WTF? Why would he want to stay with someone he values so little that he can punch? Is punching so easy for strong, big men that its not as big a deal to him that he punched me as it is to me? To me, I couldnt hit someone that I love and dont understand how someone else could... but maybe Im wrong on this one. men, could you hit someone you love out of frustration and not hate?


no, I couldn't

so sorry your married to an abuser. 

I would move on if I were you. good luck


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## DanF

As soon as he hit you, you should have called the cops and had him thrown out.

Since it's too late for that, gather up some of your things and self respect and LEAVE before he hits you again. You let him get away with physically abusing you once. He will do it again.


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## YinPrincess

I agree. I was abused for years and I thought the same things. He doesn't leave you because he likes having someone around to blame all his problems on. Having you feel so poorly about yourself makes him feel better about himself in some sick way.

Pack your s*** and hit the road - abusers almost NEVER change. He won't love you if you stay, and neither will you.

Good luck - I know this is an awful situation to be in, but the end result is worth it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

I agree to everyone above! They are absolutely correct. He's going to continue this path and many times they get worse as time goes on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

toolate said:


> Couple things and I will keep this short... he punched me the other day and is now withholding affection from me, but then he balanced it with "if I wanted to have left you, I would have." WTF? Why would he want to stay with someone he values so little that he can punch? Is punching so easy for strong, big men that its not as big a deal to him that he punched me as it is to me? To me, I couldnt hit someone that I love and dont understand how someone else could... but maybe Im wrong on this one. men, could you hit someone you love out of frustration and not hate?


I’m not saying yours is the same situation as mine. In my marriage in the very long time we were together there were a couple of times when my wife pushed me beyond my levels of patience, tolerance and understanding. If my wife were a man at those times I would have thumped her, probably on the nose just to shut them up. With my wife I walked away and sucked it up.

From my experience I know there is something deep inside in a man that holds him back from hitting a woman, let alone his wife who he’s supposed to love, no matter what stress, anger etc. the man might find himself under.

Your husband does not have that something deep inside of him that stops him hitting you. From my experience and how I’ve come to see things that’s what I believe. It makes him an extreme bully and a very big one at that. He probably wont learn his lesson until someone has bullied him or he is in some other way punished by the law. But even then he may not change his behaviour, there are no guarantees.

The change, if it ever does come and it is a very deep change at the emotional, spirit and soul level, must come from within your husband.

The thing is you wont change him, you can’t change him. But what you can do is erect new boundaries around yourself in order to protect yourself. Unfortunately there are times when the only boundaries men like your husband understand and abide by are those contained in a restraining order. And even then those boundaries may have to be enforced by uniformed police before he truly understands the seriousness of your intentions. And of course while you stay by his side no mater what you “say” to him he is going to think it’s ok for him to hit you. This is a time when actions really do speak way louder than words.


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## YinPrincess

Another thing - when he calls you and says he's sorry, that he loves you and can't live without you - just remember, it's code for "come back and be my punching bag, because without you I have no one to blame for my own problems".

Don't ping-pong back and forth like I did - leaving and coming home, only to leave again. Make it stick, and keep in mind that his sorry @ss will still be sorry when you've moved on and are happier in your life. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH

*Why wont my husband just admit he doesn’t love me?*

He may actually really love you. When there’s love between a couple there’s also friction and conflict. During those times of conflict there is anger. My view is a man’s anger is “active” and a woman’s anger is “passive”, typically.

Your husband has an active anger, he’s expression of his anger is to punch you. And that’s what is so very wrong.

It’s not wrong for him to get angry, anger is one of our base emotions and if we never felt it we wouldn’t be human. It’s the “expression” of his anger which is so very wrong.

Look your husband needs to change (he needs someone like me in front of him to first of all lay down the law and to then show him the way).

But for that to happen he needs a REASON to change. All you are doing by staying with him and asking him to do things like admit he doesn’t love you is giving him reasons NOT to change.


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## tm84

Seriously, it's time to look into finding a safe place to go once you leave him. There's *NO EXCUSE *whatsoever for spousal abuse. Once hs is over withholding affection, he will most likely hit you again sometime in the future. 

This is what abusers do. He will suck you back in and things might be ok for a while, but as soon as you are feeling secure again, something else will trigger another episode and who knows how far it will go. I'd talk to an attorney soon to see what recourse you will have with leaving.


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## Interlocutor

toolate, you do all women a disservice when your husband punches you and instead of asking questions about how to divorce him, you're asking questions about why he doesn't admit he doesn't love you.

To answer the deeply provocative question presented here... He might... Some people treat people they love very badly, which is dysfunctional of course. Some people do not know or were never taught how to love another person, and people like this need help, therapy sessions, or ass kickings. What they don't need, and shouldn't have, are spouses.


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## Jellybeans

*Why wont my husband just admit he doesnt love me? *

Better question--why do you need him to admit/telll you he doesn't love you when it's clear from his actions that he isn't being loving towards you?

If someone punches & hits you, it's because they have no respect for you--they have so little regard for you that they see you as an object.

Him punching you wasn't a mistake. I am betting he has a lot of anger issues and is controlling and treats you liek sh!t. Probably has for a long time. And you stay, therefore you have enabled him and this behavior, letting him know it's ok with you, that you won't ever leave him because of what he does.

When will you accept that his actions PROVE he does'nt love you? 

When will you realize you deserve better than being someone's ragdoll they can punch up and down like a pinata? 


If you have children, you are raising them in a really sh!tty and abusive environment, which in and of itself, is abusive.

The fact that you are even asking if he hit you out of "frustration" and not love means your self-esteem is so low you are trying to justify/excuse his actions as acceptable. 

Abusers get worse over time. Do you want to end up dead one day? 

Find your self-respect and get out of this marriage. Yesterday.


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## nice777guy

Men don't hit women - plain and simple. You should leave on your own.

He may love you - but he has his own issues that you will continue to bear the burden of until you leave.

Sorry...


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## mankind

Well first off..men do hit women!

Second, you are in a viscious abuse cycle and dont realize it!
He devalues you because you dont value yourself!

I can go into it but I dont think you will lie to hear what I am going to say!


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## Jellybeans

nice777guy said:


> Men don't hit women - plain and simple. You should leave on your own.


Well said. A real man would never hit a woman.


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## Jellybeans

mankind said:


> He devalues you because you dont value yourself!


Eh. He hits her because it's a CHOICE that he makes. Nothing that she does or doesn't do "makes" him punch her. 

With that said--she is enabling the behavior if she doesn't GTFO.


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## Interlocutor

I don't think women are special in any way... And I'd have no problem smacking my wife the day she decides to smack me, which of course she'd never do.

People shouldn't be hitting people. Unless you're defending yourself, no one has any right to strike and cause harm to another individual. It's that simple and nothing to do with manhood or any other 50's social vestiges... There are enough videos on worldstarhiphop.com and other degenerate sites to show women swinging fists at other girls and boys alike for me to know people are really just people regardless of gender.

OP needs to stand up for herself ASAP because she's a human being who, presumably, has not struck or otherwised abused her punch-happy SO. She needs to stop giving three ****s about whether or not he loves her or not, admits it or not, etc. She needs to do something NOW.


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## mankind

Jellybeans said:


> Well said. A real man would never hit a woman.


A "real man" lol. Women are very capable of being hit!!

If the basis of for them to not be hit rest on the fact that they appeart o be the physically weaker gender, then logic would follow that all men that have fought and "beaten" their opponent are not real men.

I recall hitting a female in the mouth to "teach" her a lesson.
I also recall hitting a male in the mouth to "teach" him the same lesson!


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## toolate

These are things I already know and worked very hard to overcome on my own while remaining in the marriage. I cannot leave for a variety of reasons which I have talked about before.

He does what he does to me, once a year or less. I view it as his inner child and inability to cope and lack of self esteem and control. It is what it is and I dont waste time moping about it anymore. I report it and move on. 

Im sure DC has many behind closed doors, upper income status marital abuse that is unreported.... its just not what you do. It should be the real "dont ask, dont tell." Doesnt make it right, but it doesnt make it NOT exist either. 

The irony here is, I was the one with the money, I was the one who got duped/used (sometimes the abuser is the one with the money/power), and Im not going to waste time or energy feeling sorry for myself, it happened, its documented, friends know and I have emotional resources within myself and in the area. Being the "victim" is my husband's favorite pastime (even though he is really the aggressor, he has to see himself as the victim to be "happy") not mine.

I was posting bc I was wondering if any men would simply hit out of frustration. The question is rhetorical when you think about it... as its answer lies in the action, its already answered itself. 

The scope of borderline personality disorder makes asking for regular advice here difficult at best, but when things are more comfortable at home sometimes I forget that he has it so I seek regular advice. 

Being with him, I was actually able to overcome my narcissitic tendencies, and through my readings, have learned it may be why we attracted one another... I saw him as no strings attached and he saw me as an emotionally unavailable caregiver (what he grew up with)... I was that bc I didnt want any drama, so I didnt want any closeness. I didnt want to fall in love... through his bpd intensity (believe me... master seducers who can make you really believe you are the center of their universe... ) I actually faced my issues head on. The problem arose when I finally wanted a regular 2 way relationship... so perhaps it was me who threw our relationship into a tailspin bc I became healed from my detached nature... that was what he loved/needed most from me. Wow, the irony continues as I type. 

OMG, I was a narcissist. It makes perfect sense! I thought I just had tendencies, and I was aloof. But, I was never in love with any of my old boyfriends (how lucky they are I moved on from them... I broke up with all of them) I never had my heart broken, never until this husband of mine. Im good at people pleasing, but maybe more bc it makes me feel good rather than the other person. I have a very quick wit, but I cant outwit my borderline husband. Borderlines win always, at all costs. My years of training just came in handy. Im the talker. Im like my ex husband! Oh God. All right, I have to go process this. You can manage narcissism... but through crisis only. Little miss cant be wrong was the song my sorority mates gave me! Ugh! Why didnt I see this before?


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## toolate

mankind said:


> A "real man" lol. Women are very capable of being hit!!
> 
> If the basis of for them to not be hit rest on the fact that they appeart o be the physically weaker gender, then logic would follow that all men that have fought and "beaten" their opponent are not real men.
> 
> I recall hitting a female in the mouth to "teach" her a lesson.
> I also recall hitting a male in the mouth to "teach" him the same lesson!


Interesting... and honest, brutally... but this was kind of what I was wondering. In light of my personal discovery in the post I just posted after yours came in... it may all be moot. Im a "healed" narcissist? and our problems may have occurred bc I healed and didnt stay the way I was (aloof and not seeking deep connection with him). Woah... like Joey says


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## toolate

Interlocutor said:


> I don't think women are special in any way... And I'd have no problem smacking my wife the day she decides to smack me, which of course she'd never do.
> 
> People shouldn't be hitting people. Unless you're defending yourself, no one has any right to strike and cause harm to another individual. It's that simple and nothing to do with manhood or any other 50's social vestiges... There are enough videos on worldstarhiphop.com and other degenerate sites to show women swinging fists at other girls and boys alike for me to know people are really just people regardless of gender.
> 
> OP needs to stand up for herself ASAP because she's a human being who, presumably, has not struck or otherwised abused her punch-happy SO. She needs to stop giving three ****s about whether or not he loves her or not, admits it or not, etc. She needs to do something NOW.



Yes!:iagree::smthumbup::iagree:

My old self would have. Im new at this "love" thing and realize that "love" is not what we have. I would have loved to have had the wherewithall to haul off and punch him back... dammit, missed opportunity.


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## Jellybeans

mankind said:


> A "real man" *lol. Women are very capable of being hit!!*
> 
> *If the basis of for them to not be hit rest on the fact that they appeart o be the physically weaker gender*, then logic would follow that all men that have fought and "beaten" their opponent are not real men.
> 
> *
> I recall hitting a female in the mouth to "teach" her a lesson.
> I also recall hitting a male in the mouth to "teach" him the same lesson*!


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

You sound like a real winner! ::Major sarcasm::


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## COGypsy

toolate said:


> These are things I already know and worked very hard to overcome on my own while remaining in the marriage. I cannot leave for a variety of reasons which I have talked about before.
> 
> He does what he does to me, once a year or less. *I view it as his inner child and inability to cope and lack of self esteem and control. * It is what it is and I dont waste time moping about it anymore. I report it and move on.
> 
> Im sure DC has many behind closed doors, upper income status marital abuse that is unreported.... its just not what you do. It should be the real "dont ask, dont tell." Doesnt make it right, but it doesnt make it NOT exist either.
> 
> The irony here is, I was the one with the money, *I was the one who got duped/used (sometimes the abuser is the one with the money/power),* and Im not going to waste time or energy feeling sorry for myself, it happened, its documented, friends know and I have emotional resources within myself and in the area. Being the "victim" is my husband's favorite pastime (even though he is really the aggressor, he has to see himself as the victim to be "happy") not mine.
> 
> I was posting bc *I was wondering if any men would simply hit out of frustration.* The question is rhetorical when you think about it... as its answer lies in the action, its already answered itself.


I would ask one question about your husband's inner child and frustration....

Does hit his boss? The cop that pulled him over? His mother? Kids? My guess is that, as with most abusers, the attacks that result from "frustration" are reserved exclusively for you. Particularly since you mention that you were the one with the money, etc. That makes his need to control you and your behavior even more important to his livelihood and comfort. If he assaults anyone that frustrates him or overwhelms him--that's another issue entirely.


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## Interlocutor

mankind said:


> A "real man" lol. Women are very capable of being hit!!
> 
> If the basis of for them to not be hit rest on the fact that they appeart o be the physically weaker gender, then logic would follow that all men that have fought and "beaten" their opponent are not real men.
> 
> I recall hitting a female in the mouth to "teach" her a lesson.
> I also recall hitting a male in the mouth to "teach" him the same lesson!


Agreed 110%


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## VermisciousKnid

toolate said:


> Couple things and I will keep this short... he punched me the other day and is now withholding affection from me, but then he balanced it with "if I wanted to have left you, I would have." WTF? Why would he want to stay with someone he values so little that he can punch? Is punching so easy for strong, big men that its not as big a deal to him that he punched me as it is to me? To me, I couldnt hit someone that I love and dont understand how someone else could... but maybe Im wrong on this one. men, could you hit someone you love out of frustration and not hate?


Nope. Frustration, hate, sociopathy, psychopathy... What's the difference? It is unacceptable... a deal-breaker.


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## Enon

Growing up in a household with a lot of physical abuse, I have seen a lot of stuff. I saw every member of my family beat. It ended for me when my step-father stabbed me in the leg, to which I still have the scar, and I took a shovel to his face, literally. Having that background, you would think I would be somewhat numb to it, but I am not. My feeling is that, yes, a woman can be hit, under the right conditions. If she is coming at you with a weapon and your life is in danger, then protect yourself. Other than that, no. If you love them, truly in every since of the word, there is no excuse for it. There should be shelters if you decide to leave. I know, my mother, sisters and I spent some time in a few.


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## mankind

Jellybeans said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> You sound like a real winner! ::Major sarcasm::


I did win both the fights!!

Judge me for my realism! Ladies get knuckled up the same way dude will!

Its the individual conduct of ones interpersonal self awareness that established response ot stress.

Ladies and men that are in relations with significant others that have been hit need to understand why it happened and why it wont happen again.

My wife at one time though I was cheating and physically came after me. I knew it was the rage. Me being the MANKIND that I am sacked up and manuevered but allowing her own force of attack to cause her to fall.

I laughed my ass off it was like a Master dodging his careless students assault. Afterwards I processed with her the inappropriateness of her conduct and behavior despite her emotional distress. Years later another incident occurred and in the middle of the "attack" I did not restrain my tempermant and restrained her.

I yelled at her and said what gives you the ****in right to put your hands on me!

No more problems!

Se my friends, I am not saying that men should smakc the **** out of their female significant others just because! I am saying that a CYCLE OF VIOLENCE is not just about the aggresser!

I am Mankind and this is a public service announcement!
Sack up my friends!


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## VermisciousKnid

mankind said:


> My wife at one time though I was cheating and physically came after me. I knew it was the rage. Me being the MANKIND that I am sacked up and manuevered but allowing her own force of attack to cause her to fall.
> 
> I laughed my ass off it was like a Master dodging his careless students assault. Afterwards I processed with her the inappropriateness of her conduct and behavior despite her emotional distress. Years later another incident occurred and in the middle of the "attack" I did not restrain my tempermant and restrained her.


Sounds like you defended yourself but didn't strike. That's different from what the OP asked: Would you strike out of a non-physical provocation?


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## AFEH

mankind said:


> A "real man" lol. Women are very capable of being hit!!
> 
> If the basis of for them to not be hit rest on the fact that they appeart o be the physically weaker gender, then logic would follow that all men that have fought and "beaten" their opponent are not real men.
> 
> *I recall hitting a female in the mouth to "teach" her a lesson.*
> I also recall hitting a male in the mouth to "teach" him the same lesson!


For me that's sick. And cowardly.


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## AFEH

toolate said:


> These are things I already know and worked very hard to overcome on my own while remaining in the marriage. I cannot leave for a variety of reasons which I have talked about before.
> 
> He does what he does to me, once a year or less. I view it as his inner child and inability to cope and lack of self esteem and control. It is what it is and I dont waste time moping about it anymore. I report it and move on.
> 
> Im sure DC has many behind closed doors, upper income status marital abuse that is unreported.... its just not what you do. It should be the real "dont ask, dont tell." Doesnt make it right, but it doesnt make it NOT exist either.
> 
> The irony here is, I was the one with the money, I was the one who got duped/used (sometimes the abuser is the one with the money/power), and Im not going to waste time or energy feeling sorry for myself, it happened, its documented, friends know and I have emotional resources within myself and in the area. Being the "victim" is my husband's favorite pastime (even though he is really the aggressor, he has to see himself as the victim to be "happy") not mine.
> 
> I was posting bc I was wondering if any men would simply hit out of frustration. The question is rhetorical when you think about it... as its answer lies in the action, its already answered itself.
> 
> The scope of borderline personality disorder makes asking for regular advice here difficult at best, but when things are more comfortable at home sometimes I forget that he has it so I seek regular advice.
> 
> Being with him, I was actually able to overcome my narcissitic tendencies, and through my readings, have learned it may be why we attracted one another... I saw him as no strings attached and he saw me as an emotionally unavailable caregiver (what he grew up with)... I was that bc I didnt want any drama, so I didnt want any closeness. I didnt want to fall in love... through his bpd intensity (believe me... master seducers who can make you really believe you are the center of their universe... ) I actually faced my issues head on. The problem arose when I finally wanted a regular 2 way relationship... so perhaps it was me who threw our relationship into a tailspin bc I became healed from my detached nature... that was what he loved/needed most from me. Wow, the irony continues as I type.
> 
> OMG, I was a narcissist. It makes perfect sense! I thought I just had tendencies, and I was aloof. But, I was never in love with any of my old boyfriends (how lucky they are I moved on from them... I broke up with all of them) I never had my heart broken, never until this husband of mine. Im good at people pleasing, but maybe more bc it makes me feel good rather than the other person. I have a very quick wit, but I cant outwit my borderline husband. Borderlines win always, at all costs. My years of training just came in handy. Im the talker. Im like my ex husband! Oh God. All right, I have to go process this. You can manage narcissism... but through crisis only. Little miss cant be wrong was the song my sorority mates gave me! Ugh! Why didnt I see this before?


Don’t know about being a narcissist but I guarantee you you are a codependent.


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## AFEH

toolate said:


> Interesting... and honest, brutally... but this was kind of what I was wondering. In light of my personal discovery in the post I just posted after yours came in... it may all be moot. Im a "healed" narcissist? and our problems may have occurred bc I healed and didnt stay the way I was (aloof and not seeking deep connection with him). Woah... like Joey says


You’ve serious problems Toolate. You are communicating with a “man” who has not only hit a woman but additionally who advocates physical violence against women.

And that is your problem and why some men like me think women like you are your own worst enemy. There is no “understanding” to do here. There is no reason to know why a man would hit a woman. The reasons simply don’t matter but I will tell you any man who hits a woman has something missing inside of his heart and soul. That “something” is simply not there.

But the reasons really are unimportant. The big, single thing is not to tolerate it. To have absolute, zero tolerance against any type of abuse let alone physical abuse against you. Why, according to his own beliefs the man you are communicating with sees every justification for thumping you!



And you smile. Crazy.


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## AFEH

mankind said:


> I did win both the fights!!
> 
> Judge me for my realism! Ladies get knuckled up the same way dude will!
> 
> Its the individual conduct of ones interpersonal self awareness that established response ot stress.
> 
> Ladies and men that are in relations with significant others that have been hit need to understand why it happened and why it wont happen again.
> 
> My wife at one time though I was cheating and physically came after me. I knew it was the rage. Me being the MANKIND that I am sacked up and manuevered but allowing her own force of attack to cause her to fall.
> 
> I laughed my ass off it was like a Master dodging his careless students assault. Afterwards I processed with her the inappropriateness of her conduct and behavior despite her emotional distress. Years later another incident occurred and in the middle of the "attack" I did not restrain my tempermant and restrained her.
> 
> I yelled at her and said what gives you the ****in right to put your hands on me!
> 
> No more problems!
> 
> Se my friends, I am not saying that men should smakc the **** out of their female significant others just because! I am saying that a CYCLE OF VIOLENCE is not just about the aggresser!
> 
> I am Mankind and this is a public service announcement!
> Sack up my friends!


This is a marriage forum where there is zero tolerance for men who advocate violence against women.


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## ScaredandUnsure

The only time I ever think it's even remotely okay for anybody to hit anyone is in self defense. I was friends with this couple a long time ago, the woman was a big girl, and she could pack a punch, her boyfriend was very thin and "weakly" one night she hauled off and punched him in the face, sat on his chest and beat him bloody. She broke his nose, and his jaw, and some hair line fractures on his cheekbones. To this day, I wish he'd of been able to clock her one. In my opinion, if a woman goes at a man like that, he has every right to defend himself. 

I have 3 sons and 1 daughter, my ex husband has repeatedly told the boys to never hit girls and they would be punished for it no matter what. And for a while, my daughter was taking advantage of that, saying she could hit them without them being able to do anything about it (aside from telling). 

After several incidents, I sat my 4 children down and explained to them all that it was never okay to hit someone else, I don't care what gender you are or what the reason being (other than self defense) and if I heard anything more about her thinking it was okay to beat on her brothers, I'd whoop her butt so hard, she wouldn't be able to sit for a week. I also explained to her, that when she becomes older, if she thinks she can just beat on boys and get away with it, she'd probably spend some time in jail.


After the conversation, we have had very little hitting. I also explained to my ex husband that he needed to back me up on the "No one has the right to hit anyone, no matter what the gender is" and he has.

Thats just IMHO.

Edit: Typo


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## AFEH

Well done with your daughters.

What would you tell such a man who stayed with his wife after she’d beat him? To stay with the psycho? The problem is a lot of them stay so they directly enable the physical abuse.


I believe within a marriage it’s never right to hit back. Get out yes, hit out no. If you’re free to hit out you’re more than likely free to disentangle and to walk or run away. Otherwise the whole thing just escalates and it becomes a might is right thing and people get seriously hurt and damage is done that can’t be undone. Of course until the law is brought in.


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## Interlocutor

ScaredandUnsure said:


> "No one has the right to hit anyone, no matter what the gender is" and he has.
> 
> Thats just IMHO.
> 
> Edit: Typo


There we go...

The zero tolerance against violence should be applied to human beings, not a specific gender.


There are plenty of women out there that push, shove, and throw objects when they're angry. If you have never seen this, you need to get out more.

I'd have no problem smacking or shoving any man or woman that did the same to me, and my son has been raised to never tolerate ANYONE, even if it's an oh-so-special-made-of-sugar-and-spice "girl," ever laying hands on him without consent.


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## AFEH

Interlocutor said:


> There we go...
> 
> The zero tolerance against violence should be applied to human beings, not a specific gender.
> 
> 
> There are plenty of women out there that push, shove, and throw objects when they're angry. If you have never seen this, you need to get out more.
> 
> I'd have no problem smacking or shoving any man or woman that did the same to me, and my son has been raised to never tolerate ANYONE, even if it's an oh-so-special-made-of-sugar-and-spice "girl," ever laying hands on him without consent.


I don’t reckon you’ve taught your son right and because of that he’s likely to end up with a physically abusive woman. And likely to get seriously damaged.

It’s best to handle abuse with intolerance, by walking away. Your way just starts a war. His date hits him? He hits his date back? Next day her father and four brothers take him down an alley and kick the sh!te out of your son and he’s in hospital for a couple of months.

Crazy. You may want to re teach your son about what being a man is all about such that he picks a good woman.


Zero tolerance for those that hit women and zero tolerance for those that advocate physical violence against women.





You really are showing your true colours, keep em coming it's interesting and enlightening. A world I've never had exposure to.


----------



## ScaredandUnsure

AFEH said:


> Well done with your daughters.
> 
> What would you tell such a man who stayed with his wife after she’d beat him? To stay with the psycho? The problem is a lot of them stay so they directly enable the physical abuse.
> 
> 
> I believe within a marriage it’s never right to hit back. Get out yes, hit out no. If you’re free to hit out you’re more than likely free to disentangle and to walk or run away. Otherwise the whole thing just escalates and it becomes a might is right thing and people get seriously hurt and damage is done that can’t be undone. Of course until the law is brought in.


I would tell that man to RUN not WALK his way out of there. No one, penis or no penis, deserves to be a punching bag, and they shouldn't stay and enable that persons behavior. I know it's easier said than done, but sometimes you gotta put your big kids pants on and stand up for for yourself, even if that means running the heck away.


----------



## Interlocutor

AFEH said:


> I don’t reckon you’ve taught your son right and because of that he’s likely to end up with a physically abusive woman. And likely to get seriously damaged.
> 
> It’s best to handle abuse with intolerance, by walking away. Your way just starts a war. His date hits him? He hits his date back? Next day her father and four brothers take him down an alley and kick the sh!te out of your son and he’s in hospital for a couple of months.
> 
> Crazy. You may want to re teach your son about what being a man is all about such that he picks a good woman.
> 
> 
> Zero tolerance for those that hit women and zero tolerance for those that advocate physical violence against women.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You really are showing your true colours, keep em coming it's interesting and enlightening. A world I've never had exposure to.


I've tried both... Running and fighting back.

Running didn't work once.

Fighting back, only in self-defense, and only up to the point where violence can be ended to run, call for help, etc. Example pushing someone off, etc. has worked every time! 

I think we're saying similar things... I think you believe I'm advocating hitting people over and over again for fun...

I'm not... I'm advocating through FORCE IF NECESSARY, immediately STOPPING any violence done to you, to then be able to walk away.

You'd tell your son to try to run over and over again until he is able if he got jumped by kids trying to stomp him on the floor? I hope not. People attacking you are not always going to let you run or walk away.

If so, I reckon you've taught your son to be a punching bag and to run from his problems... If you have a son, of course.

Stopping any attack, the few times it's happened to me in the crazy city where I live, has worked EVERY time.

I guess I just don't run from anything... Pity me and my son if you have some to spare, please.


----------



## ScaredandUnsure

Oh yeah, this is one hot button for me. Bullies and kids in school. I've told my kids over and over again, if they are confronted by a bully, and that bully hits them first, they can defend themselves. I don't care if they get suspended for zero tolerance, but if that person hits them first, they will not get in trouble for defending themselves at home. BUT if I find out my kid was antagonizing said bully in any way, or raised his/her fists first, you will probably be grounded for the rest of the school year/summer for that. 

I had some major issues with my oldest sons elementary school. He'd gone several times to the principal over a certain bully and they chose not to do anything about it, even put the bully in the same class with him the next year. Now the bully was verbal before that year, and my son did the right thing by letting those at the school know what was going on. 

Yet they did.nothing for him...so the year they put the bully in class with him, the bully got physical with my son, and then wrote my son up as well because it was physical, even though my son didn't hit back, the bully hit him and kicked him several time as my son curled up in fetal position. 

I went to the school and told them I was going to involve the cops, how dare they let it go this much. Zero tolerance my butt!! The bully finally got suspended and we moved shortly after that, but I told my kids that night, if anyone ever comes at you like that, you are allowed to defend yourself. Omg, it still makes me soooo mad when I think about it.


----------



## AFEH

Interlocutor said:


> I've tried both... Running and fighting back.
> 
> Running didn't work once.
> 
> Fighting back, only in self-defense, and only up to the point where violence can be ended to run, call for help, etc. Example pushing someone off, etc. has worked every time!
> 
> I think we're saying similar things... I think you believe I'm advocating hitting people over and over again for fun...
> 
> I'm not... I'm advocating through FORCE IF NECESSARY, immediately STOPPING any violence done to you, to then be able to walk away.
> 
> You'd tell your son to try to run over and over again until he is able if he got jumped by kids trying to stomp him on the floor? I hope not. People attacking you are not always going to let you run or walk away.
> 
> If so, I reckon you've taught your son to be a punching bag and to run from his problems... If you have a son, of course.
> 
> Stopping any attack, the few times it's happened to me in the crazy city where I live, has worked EVERY time.
> 
> I guess I just don't run from anything... Pity me and my son if you have some to spare, please.


I find it amazing how people like you create scenarios just to try and prove the point they want to make when someone has stood up to them. I find bullies the same everywhere.

All my words were within the context of a man/woman relationship. And you know that.

Everything else you’ve written is your total and absolute delusion about me. And that’s crazy.

I’ve two sons. They can look after themselves on the street just as I can. I made sure of that. But they’d never hit a woman they are in partnership with. Never. I’ll guarantee that and I’ll take whatever odds anyone would offer me. It’s the way they were brought up and it's right there in their genes. No women hitting men in my family.

You see they have that something inside of their hearts and souls that prevent them being violent against the woman they are with. Just like their dad, his dad and his dad's dad. They protect the woman they love, they don’t damage her as you would have your son do.


----------



## Interlocutor

AFEH said:


> I find it amazing how people like you create scenarios just to try and prove the point they want to make when someone has stood up to them. I find bullies the same everywhere.
> 
> All my words were within the context of a man/woman relationship. And you know that.


I do... What I wrote, for me, my opinion, is universal... For men and women too... If I was beating my wife in a rage, I'd hope she'd grab a frying pan and try to knock me unconscious before running. My words still apply to the original context. So yeah, I do know that.



AFEH said:


> Everything else you’ve written is your total and absolute delusion about me. And that’s crazy.


I'm just having a discussion... You had no problem having your delusion about me, the way I see it.



AFEH said:


> I’ve two sons. They can look after themselves on the street just as I can. I made sure of that. But they’d never hit a woman they are in partnership with. Never. I’ll guarantee that and I’ll take whatever odds anyone would offer me. It’s the way they were brought up and it's right there in their genes. No women hitting men in my family.


You've taught them well... My lesson goes a bit further than yours for my son though... Mine is no PEOPLE hitting in the family.



AFEH said:


> You see they have that something inside of their hearts and souls that prevent them being violent against the woman they are with. Just like their dad, his dad and his dad's dad. They protect the woman they love, they don’t damage her as you would have your son do.


Another of YOUR delusions... I was fine with treating them as hypostheticals or mild assumptions... Anyway...

You actually think I would raise my son to damage women? lol, no.

I raise my son, near-IDENTICALLY, to protect the PEOPLE they love... Women, the way my son is being raised, ARE NOT SPECIAL or need special rules/treatment/tutorials... I replace everything you say with the word "people." 

I also add that if the person they love is abusing them, then they are loving the wrong person, AND MUST STOP that, not run from that.

In a future marriage, should my son ever unfortunately marry a woman that will throw a tantrum and start shoving my son and throwing things at him, etc. He is to STOP her immediately, with whatever force necessary, shoving her to the away/to the ground, moving her out of the way, or a nice smack, whatever it takes, to walk away... He will not sit there and think to himself, no wait, this is a woman.

And, I'd like to add... Since we both TREASURE marriage and wives, it's possible our opinions will be similar, however, not identical... Let's, you and me, refrain from calling each other deluded or stating we're raising our children wrongly or stating that we're showing our true colors or the "people like you" or whatever other indirect statements... Thanks.


----------



## Interlocutor

ScaredandUnsure said:


> Oh yeah, this is one hot button for me. Bullies and kids in school. I've told my kids over and over again, if they are confronted by a bully, and that bully hits them first, they can defend themselves. I don't care if they get suspended for zero tolerance, but if that person hits them first, they will not get in trouble for defending themselves at home. BUT if I find out my kid was antagonizing said bully in any way, or raised his/her fists first, you will probably be grounded for the rest of the school year/summer for that.
> 
> I had some major issues with my oldest sons elementary school. He'd gone several times to the principal over a certain bully and they chose not to do anything about it, even put the bully in the same class with him the next year. Now the bully was verbal before that year, and my son did the right thing by letting those at the school know what was going on.
> 
> Yet they did.nothing for him...so the year they put the bully in class with him, the bully got physical with my son, and then wrote my son up as well because it was physical, even though my son didn't hit back, the bully hit him and kicked him several time as my son curled up in fetal position.
> 
> I went to the school and told them I was going to involve the cops, how dare they let it go this much. Zero tolerance my butt!! The bully finally got suspended and we moved shortly after that, but I told my kids that night, if anyone ever comes at you like that, you are allowed to defend yourself. Omg, it still makes me soooo mad when I think about it.


School, workplaces, social circles/friends/MARRIAGE...

I FULLY agree, and I feel that in NO environment or relationship do the things you wrote change... These things MUST always apply, IMO.


----------



## AFEH

mankind said:


> A "real man" lol. *Women are very capable of being hit!!*
> 
> If the basis of for them to not be hit rest on the fact that they appeart o be the physically weaker gender, then logic would follow that all men that have fought and "beaten" their opponent are not real men.
> 
> *I recall hitting a female in the mouth to "teach" her a lesson.*
> I also recall hitting a male in the mouth to "teach" him the same lesson!





Interlocutor said:


> *Agreed 110%*


You've said additional stuff in support of Mankind's "theory". But I'll leave it there and I'll leave you to your delusional ways of thinking.


----------



## Jellybeans

Nobody should be hitting anyone.

I sure hope the OP gets out of this relationship STAT because it could end in her death.


----------



## AFEH

Makes me wonder if when some women get hit by a man they take it as a sign that he must really love her. Maybe that’s the origination of Toolate’s initial question and the quest she seems to be on.

Just maybe they take it as a sign of affection, in the same way another woman would take a dozen red roses as a sign of love and affection.

And maybe there’s a multiplication factor in this as well. In that the man who hits his wife also thinks he is showing love and affection, in the same way that a man who buys the roses sees it as love and affection.

Are some people really that screwed up?



I think so much depends on what adults witnessed as children in their family as they were growing up. My dad wrote poetry and bought the flowers and did so many other romantic guestures. He never once even raised his hand to my mother.


----------



## Interlocutor

AFEH said:


> You've said additional stuff in support of Mankind's "theory". But I'll leave it there and I'll leave you to your delusional ways of thinking.


Okay, I'm delusional... It's the internet... Get your kicks writing to me this way...

I agree... Women are very capable of being hit. Definitely.

Am I delusional? Crazy? Let me have it... I'm just here to have a good time discussing and sharing opinions. Anything else I might be? lol


----------



## Jellybeans

AFEH said:


> Makes me wonder if when some women get hit by a man they take it as a sign that he must really love her. Maybe that’s the origination of Toolate’s initial question and the quest she seems to be on.
> 
> Just maybe they take it as a sign of affection, in the same way another woman would take a dozen red roses as a sign of love and affection.
> 
> And maybe there’s a multiplication factor in this as well. In that the man who hits his wife also thinks he is showing love and affection, in the same way that a man who buys the roses sees it as love and affection.
> 
> Are some people really that screwed up?


Yep. Some people ARE that screwed up. A couple of years ago, I recall hearing a woman say "He only hits me because he loves me." I thought, . 

So sad.


----------



## Interlocutor

A woman would have to be severely dysfunctional to interpret abuse as affection.

A man, the same, to interpret giving the abuse as giving affection...

Could there be women though, and I'm not talking about the masochistic versions of sex where there is some hair-pulling or some light slapping, etc. that actually interpret abuse as affection?

There are men who pay good money to literally be beaten...

Maybe there are sick people like this.


----------



## Jellybeans

ThrowAway said:


> And vice versa.


:iagree:


----------



## toolate

AFEH said:


> Makes me wonder if when some women get hit by a man they take it as a sign that he must really love her. Maybe that’s the origination of Toolate’s initial question and the quest she seems to be on.
> 
> Just maybe they take it as a sign of affection, in the same way another woman would take a dozen red roses as a sign of love and affection.
> 
> And maybe there’s a multiplication factor in this as well. In that the man who hits his wife also thinks he is showing love and affection, in the same way that a man who buys the roses sees it as love and affection.
> 
> Are some people really that screwed up?
> 
> 
> 
> I think so much depends on what adults witnessed as children in their family as they were growing up. My dad wrote poetry and bought the flowers and did so many other romantic guestures. He never once even raised his hand to my mother.


I havent read the last page yet, I had no idea such discussions would result from this thought process. I hope readers are learning, something.

I want to address the hitting equating love part of your last post. Im not confused about this at all... hitting is not an expression of love ever. Since you have read more of my other posts than some others here, you know that it hasnt been clear for a while based on actions if my husband loves me, even though he tells me he does. The confusion lies in the inconsistency of his verbal declarations of love (which also go both ways, sometimes he loves me and sometimes he says he doesnt)... his actions all say to me he doesnt even though he considers getting me my coffee a declaration of love.

AFEH, yeah, for a while I thought I was codependentish... but it just doesnt fit with me at all. When I read up on narcissism to refresh my memory, and via typing here, I was literally like wow, that is most likely. I was the heartbreaker of men, I discarded them when one thing displeased me. I feel terrible in retrospect, but this is why my husband fell for me... bc I was so aloof and unattached. I CHANGED the rules of our relationship... I wanted a normal 2 way relationship and he is still stuck in the delusion... maybe thats why he feels so convinced I was the one who changed... I did! I changed for the better and he didnt. Unfortunately, that change wasnt the best for our relaitonship.

Im going to go back to our MC to share this stuff with her and see what she has to say.

AFEH, I think it does boil down to what you see growing up to a point. When we become adults, it is our responsibility to learn the difference. My husband cannot seem to get past that. He saw an emotionally unavailable mom and a dad who wasnt around very much. My ex husband is a narcissist... as my mom "jokes" I went from one to marry another kind of narcissist!


----------



## AFEH

TL,
Personally I would be very careful with using “labels” recognising that I have done the very same thing. Those labels, narcissism etc., are there to help a psychiatrist/psychologist treat a person with a disorder, the labels somewhat guide their treatment.

I think you will find it far more useful, and enlightening, to focus on the behaviour than on the reason (the label) for the behaviour.

“He Hit Me!!!!!”. It doesn’t matter a jot why he hit you, the only thing that matters is that he did. If you go into the reasons why (the label) he hit you then that is what a codependent is, no matter what you say. I say this in I hope a helpful way, you are in denial.

If you were a person with good personal boundaries (and the self-esteem that goes along with them) your boundaries would be such that you would never tolerate a man hitting you. You just would not tolerate it. End Of. Q.E.D. That’s something you just don’t get, as yet.



On your change and changing, I understand that. But you know what the person you are living with STILL has the old you right there in his head. He is responding to you as though you are the old you, not the new you. And because of that if it goes on he will DRAG YOU BACK to the person you were, not the person you are now and the person you want to become.

What you are going through is called the process of individuation. You are on a journey of becoming the person you were meant to be. Sometimes to continue that journey we have to leave even people we love behind, for the simple reason they keep us stuck in our old ways and prevent our growth. I’ve left my wife of 4 decades behind yet I still love her. It’s not always easy but it is always worthwhile, at least that’s my experience.


----------



## toolate

I appreciate the advice. Just because I cant walk out the door the minute it happens doesnt mean Im tolerating it, it pisses me off that he did that, it pisses me off that I have said some things too, it pisses me off that he cant see what me and others see in him so that he can grow and learn. I fell out of love with him when he punched me, period. I saw that all the "progress" I thought we had made as a "couple" was nothing, a lie... another lie in the chain of lies he has been telling me since we got married. I went back and read some posts from my earlier time here in 2009... wow, its like a world away. I was so confused yet optimistic. 

SOmetimes the timing of leaving has to be carefully weighed. I know a woman who had to pretend everything was ok for 18 months so that she could gather up resources and a plan to leave. 

Yes, it is a process of individuation, something that may have been haulted or hindered within me based on some early experiences. Yes, there is a potential for him to try to suck me back into that role... but each day that passes by that he tries to re-institute the old dynamic (which he is trying to do), pisses me off. Part of me wants to throw the coffee at him and say screw you... this is not what showing love to me means... its what it means to you... you are acts of service I am quality time and touch/sex... havent you heard me? The answer is, no he hasnt heard me, he only hears himself and what he thinks.


----------



## AFEH

Well it may help you to know that I just couldn’t get my wife to “grow”. I tried to help her extensively but it didn’t happen. She needed to but wouldn’t so in the end I left her. About 12 months after we’d split she sent me an email saying she’d read a book and had an epiphany moment, she described it a little and it was good, in that it was a fundamental part of what I’d been on about. It was to do with her character and how she handled some things that I could no longer tolerate. But I’d got to the point of no return plus she was never going to get another chance to cause me any more pain.

You haven’t reached that point as yet. I can see that.


I think a big part of marriage is helping one another grow. People do change as they go through life plus their world changes around them. And we grow to be more in tune with ourselves and the new worlds we find ourselves in as we go through our life.


Or at least that’s how it should be. Unfortunately one partner may well hold the other back and that causes massive stress within a marriage. It’s a bit like tectonic plates pressing together until the force is such that they are released by an earthquake.


The call to individuation can be both massive and exceedingly compelling. A massive call of the wild, of nature. And it can be very destructive as we leave behind what we had in order to create a new life more suited to the person we have become and in order to continue our journey in a healthy way

The Individuation Process.



Carl Jung on Individuation:
_Individuation
A process of psychological differentiation, having for its goal the development of the individual personality.

In general, it is the process by which individual beings are formed and differentiated; in particular, it is the development of the psychological individual as a being distinct from the general, collective psychology. [ Ibid., par. 757.]

The aim of individuation is nothing less than to divest the self of the false wrappings of the persona on the one hand, and of the suggestive power of primordial images on the other. ["The Function of the Unconscious," CW 7, par. 269].

Individuation is a process informed by the archetypal ideal of wholeness, which in turn depends on a vital relationship between ego and unconscious. The aim is not to overcome one's personal psychology, to become perfect, but to become familiar with it. Thus individuation involves an increasing awareness of one's unique psychological reality, including personal strengths and limitations, and at the same time a deeper appreciation of humanity in general.

As the individual is not just a single, separate being, but by his very existence presupposes a collective relationship, it follows that the process of individuation must lead to more intense and broader collective relationships and not to isolation. [Definitions," CW 6, par. 758.]

Individuation does not shut one out from the world, but gathers the world to itself. ["On the Nature of the Psyche," CW 8, par. 432.]

Individuation has two principle aspects: in the first place it is an internal and subjective process of integration, and in the second it is an equally indispensable process of objective relationship. Neither can exist without the other, although sometimes the one and sometimes the other predominates. [The Psychology of the Transference," CW 16, par. 448.]

Individuation and a life lived by collective values are nevertheless two divergent destinies. In Jung's view they are related to one another by guilt. Whoever embarks on the personal path becomes to some extent estranged from collective values, but does not thereby lose those aspects of the psyche which are inherently collective. To atone for this "desertion," the individual is obliged to create something of worth for the benefit of society.

Individuation cuts one off from personal conformity and hence from collectivity. That is the guilt which the individuant leaves behind him for the world, that is the guilt he must endeavour to redeem. He must offer a ransom in place of himself, that is, he must bring forth values which are an equivalent substitute for his absence in the collective personal sphere. Without this production of values, final individuation is immoral and ... more than that … suicidal.

The individuant has no a priori claim to any kind of esteem. He has to be content with whatever esteem flows to him from outside by virtue of the values he creates. Not only has society a right, it also has a duty to condemn the individuant if he fails to create equivalent values. ["Adaptation, Individuation, Collectivity," CW 18, pars. 1095f.]

Individuation differs from individualism in that the former deviates from collective norms but retains respect for them, while the latter eschews them entirely.

A real conflict with the collective norm arises only when an individual way is raised to a norm, which is the actual aim of extreme individualism. Naturally this aim is pathological and inimical to life. It has, accordingly, nothing to do with individuation, which, though it may strike out on an individual bypath, precisely on that account needs the norm for its orientation to society and for the vitally necessary relationship of the individual to society. Individuation, therefore, leads to a natural esteem for the collective norm. [Definitions," CW 6, par. 761.]

The process of individuation, consciously pursued, leads to the realization of the self as a psychic reality greater than the ego. Thus individuation is essentially different from the process of simply becoming conscious.

The goal of the individuation process is the synthesis of the self. [The Psychology of the Child Archetype," CW 9i, par. 278.]

Again and again I note that the individuation process is confused with the coming of the ego into consciousness and that the ego is in consequence identified with the self, which naturally produces a hopeless conceptual muddle. Individuation is then nothing but ego centredness and autoeroticism. But the self comprises infinitely more than a mere ego, as the symbolism has shown from of old. It is as much one's self, and all other selves, as the ego. [On the Nature of the Psyche," CW 8, par. 432.]

In Jung's view, no one is ever completely individuated. While the goal is wholeness and a healthy working relationship with the self, the true value of individuation lies in what happens along the way.

The goal is important only as an idea; the essential thing is the opus which leads to the goal: that is the goal of a lifetime. ["The Psychology of the Transference," CW 16, par. 400.]_


----------



## HUS

toolate said:


> Couple things and I will keep this short... he punched me the other day and is now withholding affection from me, but then he balanced it with "if I wanted to have left you, I would have." WTF? Why would he want to stay with someone he values so little that he can punch? Is punching so easy for strong, big men that its not as big a deal to him that he punched me as it is to me? To me, I couldnt hit someone that I love and dont understand how someone else could... but maybe Im wrong on this one. men, could you hit someone you love out of frustration and not hate?


Toolate,

Hitting is not ok, as everyone has noted. Leaving is one reasonable choice and possibly your best alternative, as has also been noted.

Toolate, you came here not for trite advice and obvious ideas but for feelings, such as strength, confidence, and certainty. But the idea that "I can't do this until I am stronger/more confident/more certain" has a name: Procrastination. Procrastination is THE WORST idea. 

Now is the time for action. You--and not the anonymous posters advising you--know what you need to do. Its called listening to your heart/conscience/whatever. YOU KNOW what is right; just do it. Doing--and not thinking or talking--is what creates the feelings that you (quite understandably) desire. 

I was you. So I know that you're probably so confused by your own procrastinating ways that you sincerely believe there is some doubt about what you really should do. You have to stop waiting around for certainty. You have options; just pick one and DO IT. Its probably a good idea, or why else would you have thought it over so many times? If its not, then you pick another and try again. Either way, you win, because you're out there trying new things. The goal is to find the right thing for you. You'll have your certainty once you've found it, because you'll think about the choices you've made and the things you've done, and you'll feel like the one in the chair:

:allhail:

Its not about feeling like some ruler, its about feeling proud of the choices you've made, and proud that you've conquered all those ideas in your head that have led you to procrastinate. They're bad, and they've rubbed off on you a bit, I'm sorry to say. You've betrayed yourself.

Sure, your husband hit you. That makes you a victim, true, but after all you have no control over when he moves his limbs violently or not. The second time that happened, you were the victim of him and, much worse, yourself. You voluntarily left your body in the proximity of a person known to abuse it. The third time, it starts to look like some bizarre ritual between you two. Enough is enough. There is no justification for the abuse that you have allowed to come to your body. You've said you are a parent. Well how do you think your children feel/would feel about your situation? They don't deserve that kind of stress. They need you to lead by example, or else they'll (i pray not) grow up to accept as little for themselves as you have been accepting for yourself.

Don't ever forget that. You need to know every bit of abuse you allow to yourself WILL hurt your children, and you will be responsible for that.

Drawing lines with this violent man will communicate your self-respect, and enforcing them will make you feel proud. But enforcing your lines EVEN WHEN you feel you're too scared/too alone/too ugly/too worthless/too whatever--that's what makes you strong. Not makes you feel or sound strong. It just makes you strong. It changes your DNA. It reveals who you truly are. It's life changing, and it's something you owe to yourself. You probably even believe you're helping this guy by loving him unconditionally. The truth is, until you start loving yourself unconditionally, the extent you can love anyone else is shallow.

Finally, this man, despite your love for him, is a criminal. He would be in jail if not for your implicit vow of secrecy. Its time to make this public. You tell your parents, you tell your best friends or siblings, or whoever you are that intimate with. But you will NEED their support to get through this. Abusers need isolated victims. If I were you, I would immediately leave--go stay with my parents/at a hotel/with some close confidantes--for a minimum of two weeks. I would only talk to this dirtbag when I wanted and on what terms I demanded. Maybe I'd say no four letter words or raising your voice. I'd be prepared to back it up, when he--inevitably--feels frustrated by my new boundaries and lashes out. I WOULD call the cops on him BEFORE he laid a hand on me. I WOULD tell them everything and make sure he knew that I did. And I WOULD NOT even consider moving back in with him until we had established a regular--at least once a week--relationship with a marriage counselor. If you want the marriage, then you have to stomach the cost. There is no expense that is more important. Thats me. Maybe you're different.


----------



## EleGirl

toolate said:


> Couple things and I will keep this short... he punched me the other day and is now withholding affection from me, but then he balanced it with "if I wanted to have left you, I would have." WTF? Why would he want to stay with someone he values so little that he can punch? Is punching so easy for strong, big men that its not as big a deal to him that he punched me as it is to me? To me, I couldnt hit someone that I love and dont understand how someone else could... but maybe Im wrong on this one. men, could you hit someone you love out of frustration and not hate?


He hit you because he's an abuser. He uses abuse to control you. Apparently his normal methods of abuse were not controlling you enough so he decided to punch you.

Have no doubt that physically abusive people choose to use violence and are very targeted with it when they do use it. I realized this with my ex-husband after a while. When he ‘got out of control’ he would throw things and break things. The odd thing is that he only broke/threw my things. Obviously he was in enough control to not destroy his own stereo, camera, favorite chair…. Etc. When I was in counseling for abuse they brought this up.. that this is very normal for abusive people.. they are very much in control over their use of anger and violence. They just want YOU to think that they are out of control because out of control is scary.

Now that he has punched you, the physcial abuse is out of the bos and he's do it again, and again and again. Now is the time to leave.

Now my question to you… how does a person stay with an abusive person who punches her?


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## hurtnohio

Get the hell out. Now. His actions have told you more than words like "I don't love you" ever would.


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## toolate

AFEH said:


> Well it may help you to know that I just couldn’t get my wife to “grow”. I tried to help her extensively but it didn’t happen. She needed to but wouldn’t so in the end I left her. About 12 months after we’d split she sent me an email saying she’d read a book and had an epiphany moment, she described it a little and it was good, in that it was a fundamental part of what I’d been on about. It was to do with her character and how she handled some things that I could no longer tolerate. But I’d got to the point of no return plus she was never going to get another chance to cause me any more pain.
> 
> You haven’t reached that point as yet. I can see that.
> 
> 
> I think a big part of marriage is helping one another grow. People do change as they go through life plus their world changes around them. And we grow to be more in tune with ourselves and the new worlds we find ourselves in as we go through our life.
> 
> 
> Or at least that’s how it should be. Unfortunately one partner may well hold the other back and that causes massive stress within a marriage. It’s a bit like tectonic plates pressing together until the force is such that they are released by an earthquake.
> 
> 
> The call to individuation can be both massive and exceedingly compelling. A massive call of the wild, of nature. And it can be very destructive as we leave behind what we had in order to create a new life more suited to the person we have become and in order to continue our journey in a healthy way
> 
> The Individuation Process.
> 
> 
> 
> Carl Jung on Individuation:
> _Individuation
> A process of psychological differentiation, having for its goal the development of the individual personality.
> 
> In general, it is the process by which individual beings are formed and differentiated; in particular, it is the development of the psychological individual as a being distinct from the general, collective psychology. [ Ibid., par. 757.]
> 
> The aim of individuation is nothing less than to divest the self of the false wrappings of the persona on the one hand, and of the suggestive power of primordial images on the other. ["The Function of the Unconscious," CW 7, par. 269].
> 
> Individuation is a process informed by the archetypal ideal of wholeness, which in turn depends on a vital relationship between ego and unconscious. The aim is not to overcome one's personal psychology, to become perfect, but to become familiar with it. Thus individuation involves an increasing awareness of one's unique psychological reality, including personal strengths and limitations, and at the same time a deeper appreciation of humanity in general.
> 
> As the individual is not just a single, separate being, but by his very existence presupposes a collective relationship, it follows that the process of individuation must lead to more intense and broader collective relationships and not to isolation. [Definitions," CW 6, par. 758.]
> 
> Individuation does not shut one out from the world, but gathers the world to itself. ["On the Nature of the Psyche," CW 8, par. 432.]
> 
> Individuation has two principle aspects: in the first place it is an internal and subjective process of integration, and in the second it is an equally indispensable process of objective relationship. Neither can exist without the other, although sometimes the one and sometimes the other predominates. [The Psychology of the Transference," CW 16, par. 448.]
> 
> Individuation and a life lived by collective values are nevertheless two divergent destinies. In Jung's view they are related to one another by guilt. Whoever embarks on the personal path becomes to some extent estranged from collective values, but does not thereby lose those aspects of the psyche which are inherently collective. To atone for this "desertion," the individual is obliged to create something of worth for the benefit of society.
> 
> Individuation cuts one off from personal conformity and hence from collectivity. That is the guilt which the individuant leaves behind him for the world, that is the guilt he must endeavour to redeem. He must offer a ransom in place of himself, that is, he must bring forth values which are an equivalent substitute for his absence in the collective personal sphere. Without this production of values, final individuation is immoral and ... more than that … suicidal.
> 
> The individuant has no a priori claim to any kind of esteem. He has to be content with whatever esteem flows to him from outside by virtue of the values he creates. Not only has society a right, it also has a duty to condemn the individuant if he fails to create equivalent values. ["Adaptation, Individuation, Collectivity," CW 18, pars. 1095f.]
> 
> Individuation differs from individualism in that the former deviates from collective norms but retains respect for them, while the latter eschews them entirely.
> 
> A real conflict with the collective norm arises only when an individual way is raised to a norm, which is the actual aim of extreme individualism. Naturally this aim is pathological and inimical to life. It has, accordingly, nothing to do with individuation, which, though it may strike out on an individual bypath, precisely on that account needs the norm for its orientation to society and for the vitally necessary relationship of the individual to society. Individuation, therefore, leads to a natural esteem for the collective norm. [Definitions," CW 6, par. 761.]
> 
> The process of individuation, consciously pursued, leads to the realization of the self as a psychic reality greater than the ego. Thus individuation is essentially different from the process of simply becoming conscious.
> 
> The goal of the individuation process is the synthesis of the self. [The Psychology of the Child Archetype," CW 9i, par. 278.]
> 
> Again and again I note that the individuation process is confused with the coming of the ego into consciousness and that the ego is in consequence identified with the self, which naturally produces a hopeless conceptual muddle. Individuation is then nothing but ego centredness and autoeroticism. But the self comprises infinitely more than a mere ego, as the symbolism has shown from of old. It is as much one's self, and all other selves, as the ego. [On the Nature of the Psyche," CW 8, par. 432.]
> 
> In Jung's view, no one is ever completely individuated. While the goal is wholeness and a healthy working relationship with the self, the true value of individuation lies in what happens along the way.
> 
> The goal is important only as an idea; the essential thing is the opus which leads to the goal: that is the goal of a lifetime. ["The Psychology of the Transference," CW 16, par. 400.]_


Very interesting and nice reminder of what I studied years ago...

Reading it now, I see similarities between this process and the last 3 years of Jesus' life... the process of becoming selfless for the greater good (I dont buy the died to remove sin from existence, bc sin still exists... another topic entirely).

Although you are right in that Im not there yet, Im in a placce of conflict over staying... hating that I have a moral need to remain here for the sake of my children vs what a sh1t he is. He actually made plans for us to go out to a restaurant, a date. Ill post this in another thread...

Since it has been a few weeks, I am actually more repulsed by his attitude of making me "make it up to him" when he is the one that punched me... he feels entitled to with hold sex. I dont want it from him now, but Im pissed that he thinks he has the right to call the shots on that after what happened! Meaning, he hasnt really recognized himself and his behavior at all... meaning it could happen again bc he thinks he didnt do anything out of line.

yes, individuation. yes, reaching a point where i cant take it anymore. yes, I cant leave, my children would forever be scarred... moreso than when I left their father... they are more ok with that and do not want any alteration to their current life.... believe me I have asked them indirect ?'s about what if mommy moved to where you go to school so you wouldnt have to be in the car so much... Nope, dont want it, they love their home here and view it as their home even with the commute... dad's house up there is viewed just as a house to them. I cannot disrupt their home at this point in their lives bc of MY mistake... I own my mistake and it sucks for only me... and I make the best of it.


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## toolate

I feel I have to clear some things up... I do not love him unconditionally or at all. The minute he can afford to buy me out, Im gone if need be. Until then, I have nowhere to go, and Im not shuffling my kids out of the home they love bc of my mistake. I work very hard with a therapist to be able to shed the crap from my husband so that i do not compromise my children. 

If he hits me again, he will go to jail next time and I will have to explain to everyone... but most people already know. I do not isolate anymore, my therapist has worked with me to make sure I dont. I will tell my mom when she comes back into town.

Im so detached from this whole thing bc of his punching and then making me make ammends to him? that Im more inclined to leave over him feeling righteous than the punch to my stomach. The physical stuff is less painful than the words and verbal abuse. The phsyical stuff is him being so scared and out of control that he is so weak he has to do that, bc he cant find the words... just look at little kids who hit bc they dont have the words yet to express their feelings.

I also, being a previous social worker, know that I could be in jeapordy of losing custody of my kids if I leave on the grounds of physical abuse... bc I allowed the kids to remain in a house with a proven abuser.... 

I talked about temporarliy giving the kids to their dad while I leave this situation and she said I cant do that to the kids... losing their mom even if temporary will have profound effects on them... they think everything is fine where we are.

I also believe he can heal if he chooses, its his choice though. If I tell his sister what happened... she would punch him... so would the other one actually. So that is an option which may faciltate change or have deadly effects on me.


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## sinnister

I could and have hit somebody I love. 1 of them being my brother.

But I get what you meant.

Naw...he's just not right. Sorry.


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## Conrad

toolate said:


> Couple things and I will keep this short... he punched me the other day and is now withholding affection from me, but then he balanced it with "if I wanted to have left you, I would have." WTF? Why would he want to stay with someone he values so little that he can punch? Is punching so easy for strong, big men that its not as big a deal to him that he punched me as it is to me? To me, I couldnt hit someone that I love and dont understand how someone else could... but maybe Im wrong on this one. men, could you hit someone you love out of frustration and not hate?


My experience indicates that if someone is emotionally broken and isn't willing to gain control of their anger, they can/will strike the person they love anytime if a disagreement escalates.

They will then blame the other person for it.

What was your husband's childhood like?


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