# I don't ****ing get it.



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

So I just got a group text from a long time friend that his marriage is ending because she was cheating and not really that motivated to stop.

We have known them for years. He is a very successful gentleman from Jamaica and she is a blonde haired blue eyed southern bell.

Both were successful in their careers with him being the much higher earner.

He actually saved her son's life by marrying her and getting both her and her child on his incredible insurance.

Her son had a massive heart defect and it took very large amounts of money to remedy his ailment.

She hit on me within about a month or two of becoming acquainted.

It was suttle but I didn't miss her meaning and neither did a couple other friends of mine.

I'm not sure how her husband missed what she was for all these years.

I thought she grew up and changed. She was always going on about God and Christianity and family and friends.

She hooked up with an old loser , druggy boyfriend in detroit while using the excuse to visit her ailing father.

He caught on by checking the phone bill and a week long romp in a hotel which appeared on a credit card bill.

He is a man I admire who has always been calm and we'll spoken.

He is also fairly well off. They paid cash one time for his and her Porsches.

He has always taken great care of her and his stepson.

I don't ****ing get this!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I performed their wedding ceremony at their ten year anniversary.

I'm getting so done with **** heads.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm sorry to hear about your friend and how upsetting this must be for you. Few are immune to this problem, apparently, even when you'd think otherwise.


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## C.C. says ... (Aug 1, 2020)

I’m going to take a stab at it since I’m bored and not doing anything else. I’m not very good at this, so take it with a grain of salt.

They have too much money. She feels entitled to another man.
He sucks in bed. She feels entitled to another man. 
She is wrapped up in some sort of Beverly housewives type diva-ish mindset. She feels entitled to another man. 
She is not the sweet southern belle. She’s a aging closet skank who feels as if her beauty is fading. She feels entitled to another man.
She’s just an ungrateful *****.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

I have been watching quite a few videos on YouTube lately by a guy that calls his channel “Better Bachelor.”

He had a video a few weeks back about an article where Tom Brady’s Wife was *****ing about him. It didn’t or even imply that she was cheating on him per se, but she was openly complaining about him being away from home a lot, not doing much with the kids or around the house etc etc - all the typical things women ***** about. 

This was Tom Brady she was complaining about; one of the greatest professional athletes in modern history, multi millionaire, more popular than the POTUS, and a tall, buff, very good looking guy. 

The moral of the story here is that if Tom Brady’s wife publicly *****es about him, then no mortal man is safe. 

Sexual fidelity is a contract; an agreement. It’s not an instinctual, inmate state based on the merits of the BS. 

.......and contracts and agreements are often broken. 

Will Smith can be another example. Rich, popular, fit, good looking A-list celebrity and his wife makes up some pahoowee about open marriage.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

What don't you get? 

That good people can do terrible, selfish, evil things that destroy those they love? 

Or that you had such a bad judgment of character that you didn't see this woman, who you clearly thought was a good woman, turned out to be so rotten?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Broken at 20 said:


> What don't you get?
> 
> That good people can do terrible, selfish, evil things that destroy those they love?
> 
> Or that you had such a bad judgment of character that you didn't see this woman, who you clearly thought was a good woman, turned out to be so rotten?


I knew she wasn't that true to start but was convinced she grew up.

I don't get why she betrayed him after everything he did for her and her son and the life he provided.

I obviously don't know their intimate details but this just seems so ****ty.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

He sounds like a very nice person to take that kind of accountability for his stepsons life. That’s a really sad story. Is he talking about divorcing her?


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Oh nevermind you stated the marriage is ending. So she’s going to get half his worth too... yikes.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> Oh nevermind you stated the marriage is ending. So she’s going to get half his worth too... yikes.


I think he is going to make sure she doesn't get a lot. He is very savvy financially and won't let her get away with much of his money.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I knew she wasn't that true to start but was convinced she grew up.
> 
> I don't get why she betrayed him after everything he did for her and her son and the life he provided.
> 
> I obviously don't know their intimate details but this just seems so ****ty.


I always find it interesting how a plurality of religious folks tend to be big hypocrites, be it in their own selfishness, or infidelity, intolerance....

As for why? There is a long list of reasons as to why. And exactly none of them paint her in a good light. 


And hate to say it, but this guy sounds like a simp. A sucker. A chump. 
Sounds like the woman had kids before the marriage. So she marries Mr. Simp to pay and take care of her kids, then enjoys the life the two of them live. And carries out her younger days. And your friend is stuck with the bill.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I think he is concerned about her trying to spin their divorce. He was my deceased uncle's best friend and a good friend to the rest of us.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I think he is going to make sure she doesn't get a lot. He is very savvy financially and won't let her get away with much of his money.


Family courts tend to not like that. And tend to punish spouses (generally men) when they attempt to hide their assets. Even if it's from the clutches of an evil, shrew of a STBXW.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Broken at 20 said:


> Family courts tend to not like that. And tend to punish spouses (generally men) when they attempt to hide their assets. Even if it's from the clutches of an evil, shrew of a STBXW.


I'm pretty confident he has his basis covered. This is a man who knows how to keep his money.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Maybe she married him for a reason that didn’t have too much to do with love?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

He is too nice and has too big a heart obviously.

I don't get why women hurt men like this.

I'm a magnitude less nice than this man but no woman would try this with me.

She would cheat with me given the chance but betray her husband who is a genuinely nicer and gentler man than me.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@ConanHub,

Women think that men cheat because the OW is prettier or younger...and yet the absolutely most beautiful women in the world are cheated on (Halle Berry in her day...Jennifer Aniston...etc.). If THEY can't keep their man, how in the heck could a "regular" woman?

Men think women cheat because he's richer and can provide a better life for her...and yet the richest, most powerful men in the world are cheated on by their women. Your friend is a perfect example. If THEY can't keep their women, how in the heck could a "regular" man?

It's because cheating has NOTHING to do with age, looks, or money. It is not true that people tend to "affiar up"--in fact, it is my experience that people tend to affair WAY DOWN, because adultery is actually all about who they are internally as a person. They don't love themselves. So they want to compare themselves to the AP and feel better about the bad they are doing (or want to do)...not feel bad because the person they're with is so good. They want to justify bad behavior.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> She hit on me within about a month or two of becoming acquainted.
> It was suttle but I didn't miss her meaning and neither did a couple other friends of mine.
> I'm not sure how her husband missed what she was for all these years.


So, why are you surprised?



> I thought she grew up and changed.


Nah, no way.
Only time I've seen cheaters change is when they already suffer the extent of their consequences and even then that's a rare occurence.



> She was always going on about God and Christianity and family and friends.


Hahahhahahahhahahaha 😂 



> She hooked up with an old loser , druggy boyfriend in detroit while using the excuse to visit her ailing father.
> He caught on by checking the phone bill and a week long romp in a hotel which appeared on a credit card bill.
> He is a man I admire who has always been calm and we'll spoken.
> He is also fairly well off. They paid cash one time for his and her Porsches.
> ...


When it comes to cheaters it doesn't matter who you are but who you chose. Obviously your mate chose the wrong one.

If I was in your shoes after what she already tried to pull on you I would be already be placing bets to see how long before this sh-tstorm happens.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> I knew she wasn't that true to start but was convinced she grew up.
> 
> I don't get why she betrayed him after everything he did for her and her son and the life he provided.
> 
> I obviously don't know their intimate details but this just seems so ****ty.


People are sh--ty, people don't suddenly become honorable simply because others are honorable to them. Just how it is.

I don't know mate, once I smell the whiff of a rotten shrew never seen them change into anything more and I've been observant over the years as I watch the lives of my circle unfold. But of course, I spare them my judgement as I do not wish to interfere in their lives. Most people are rotten sadly, but there are those that I had a good vibe with and ended up being trustworthy human beings that I preserve friendships with for over a decade.

In the end people just need to trust their instincts and nothing else. It's never who you trust it's what you trust them to do.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> So I just got a group text from a long time friend that his marriage is ending because she was cheating and not really that motivated to stop.
> 
> We have known them for years. He is a very successful gentleman from Jamaica and she is a blonde haired blue eyed southern bell.
> 
> ...


I keep saying it on here over and over. *It's in their nature.* It really is who they are. There are cheaters and non-cheaters. They are like a subspecies of human being. I have come to believe most are just born that way. Now there are people who cheat because they go astray, but cheating is part of who this women is. You can treat them the best that anyone else will treat them, you can take care of their kids. You can do whatever, It doesn't matter because it's who they are.

The Frog and the Scorpion.



> A scorpion, which cannot swim, asks a frog to carry it across a river on the frog's back. The frog hesitates, afraid of being stung by the scorpion, but the scorpion argues that if it did that, they would both drown. The frog considers this argument sensible and agrees to transport the scorpion. Midway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog anyway, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it stung despite knowing the consequence, to which the scorpion replies: "I couldn't help it. It's in my nature.


Her hitting on you a friend, the guy who would eventually do her wedding ceremony showed who she is.

Never ever venerate the person you love to the point where you over look their nature. If you do it comes back to haunt you every time.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

sokillme said:


> I keep saying it on here over and over. It's in their nature. It really is. You can treat them the best the anyone else will treat them, you can take care of their kids. You can do whatever, It's who they are.
> 
> That is from the Frog and the Scorpion.
> 
> ...


Very eloquent way of putting it, but yeah. Agreed.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I obviously don't know their intimate details but this just seems so ****ty.


That's because it is 



ConanHub said:


> I don't get why women hurt men like this.


Not exclusive to women behaving so badly, plenty of men do it too.

I'll never understand how someone could cheat on a spouse. Get happy or get out, but don't cheat. It's not ok. It's a major character flaw.


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

Success is relative to what you are talking about... Success in Business? Success in Finances? Success in the Bedroom? Success in relationship? Success in understanding the opposite sex (is that possible??? )

Alot of people who are successful in the greater world don't have 'street smarts' when it comes to relationships and understanding their instincts, if they even notice them. They are too busy being successful elsewhere.

It also comes back to personality. Is he a 'nice guy'? Have you known him to stand his ground when on subjects regarding ethics and morals, regardless of the outcome?

Alot of people in your mate's position get taken advantage of, because basically, they have not unlocked their inner ass hole. Not to be a complete domineering prick, but rather a person to be reckoned with, should they be disrespected, and one who draws that line in the sand with what is acceptable behaviour or not.

Was there anyway you could have 'hinted' towards your mate of his wife's behaviour when she was hitting on you?


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

Affaircare said:


> It's because cheating has NOTHING to do with age, looks, or money. It is not true that people tend to "affiar up"--in fact, it is my experience that people tend to affair WAY DOWN, because adultery is actually all about who they are internally as a person. They don't love themselves. So they want to compare themselves to the AP and feel better about the bad they are doing (or want to do)...not feel bad because the person they're with is so good. They want to justify bad behavior.


Yes, this.


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## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

sokillme said:


> I have come to believe most are just born that way.


Literally born that way, as in genetics? It could be partly genetic. I have no good evidence. 
But I think a lot of it is also childhood experiences. It doesn't really matter much what the causation is, and causation is an ill-defined concept anyway. But as AC said, it's not really because the OW is prettier, or the OM is wealthier.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

frusdil said:


> That's because it is
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah. I'm not trying to pick on all women.

I'm just needing to vent.

I'm more in the line of asking how the men I know in these situations, particularly this man, can be treated this way?

I've lost friends to suicide from this and just seen it keep happening to others.

I'm starting to develop a complex about my friends wives. LoL! It's not funny but it is I guess..

I'm worried for my longest friend now.

He is on a short list of men I know whose wives haven't cheated.

Something has gone so wrong.

It can't have always been like this?

I have friends across a lot of spectrums, financially, ethnically and religiously so what are the mathematics on me being friends with so many betrayed men?

I'm just going through something here.

I know a lot of women get treated poorly and cheated on too.
I'm just getting depressed I guess. How can so many men I am friends with (some of them very close) keep having this happening to them?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

RandomDude said:


> So, why are you surprised?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have a hard time gauging women in this respect.

I get flirted with and touched a lot.

She invited me to stop by for lunch because I often was in her hotel's area, she was a major hotel manager.

She was suttle and invited me in front of everyone. It seemed above board on the surface and she never did it again.

I got the feeling it was Sly and so did a couple of my friends who were close to me but not her.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> This was Tom Brady she was complaining about; one of the greatest professional athletes in modern history, multi millionaire, more popular than the POTUS, and a tall, buff, very good looking guy.


Behind every great man is a great woman.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Affaircare said:


> @ConanHub,
> 
> Women think that men cheat because the OW is prettier or younger...and yet the absolutely most beautiful women in the world are cheated on (Halle Berry in her day...Jennifer Aniston...etc.). If THEY can't keep their man, how in the heck could a "regular" woman?
> 
> ...


Thanks sweetie.

This just keeps happening to men I know and I'm friends with.

Sometimes I feel like my knuckle dragging, barbarian nature is the way to go instead of all this civilized nonsense.

I'm a slightly tamed a-hole, a former very bad boy with a very wide mean streak.

I'm not really nice but good as Mrs Conan puts it.

I'm trying to figure this craziness out.

I know everyone has something wrong with them but I also know it takes work to overcome our faults.

I know I can't paint everything with a broad brush but there is something that has gone so sideways for this to keep happening to so many men I know.

It can't be coincidental or anecdotal.

Maybe there are a large group of people that need regular spankings?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Luminous said:


> Success is relative to what you are talking about... Success in Business? Success in Finances? Success in the Bedroom? Success in relationship? Success in understanding the opposite sex (is that possible??? )
> 
> Alot of people who are successful in the greater world don't have 'street smarts' when it comes to relationships and understanding their instincts, if they even notice them. They are too busy being successful elsewhere.
> 
> ...


I replied to this with another post but she did it above board and in front of everyone.

There is always a lot of good natured flirting and laughing with my friends and family and I may have a hard time telling a real cheating attempt from a good natured flirt or genuine friendship.

I got a feeling from it and so did a couple of my friends but she made the lunch offer in front of everyone.

I didn't take her up on it and she didn't do it again.


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## manwithnoname (Feb 3, 2017)

Blondilocks said:


> Behind every great man is a great woman.


And behind her is his wife - Groucho Marx


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I know I can't paint everything with a broad brush but there is something that has gone so sideways for this to keep happening *to so many men I know.*
> 
> It can't be coincidental or anecdotal.


The common denominator is not you, Conan. lol Rest easy. 

You can try to analyze the men, the women and the marriages and all you will get is a headache. Besides death and taxes, the one thing you can count on in life is change.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

manwithnoname said:


> And behind her is his wife - Groucho Marx


Ha-ha.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> The common denominator is not you, Conan. lol Rest easy.
> 
> You can try to analyze the men, the women and the marriages and all you will get is a headache. Besides death and taxes, the one thing you can count on in life is change.


I'm not thinking as myself as a common denominator. I'm alarmed.

I'm going to do the math when I have time but it is approaching the range of 80-90% of the men I know and I'm friends with being cheated on.

50% would be alarming but something is seriously sideways here.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I dont get it either, it makes me mad, but some people, men and women, will never be content with the many good things they have in life. It seems that have it all, but they still want more. For example I will never understand why my husband's ex cheated on such a lovely guy with a 3 times divorced man, and ended their marriage. He worked hard, he was a great dad, he helped around the house, he has strong moral values and integrity, is very honest and funny, patient, laid back and easy to please. Whay more did she want? Believe me I was quick to grab him when we met on line. I just dont get why she rejected him and 16 years later she is still alone.

I know many marriages that ended due to affairs, many in my own family, (about equal numbers of men and women cheating), but thankfully I also know countless good long faithful marriages. All of my very closest friends have long marriages of 40 or more years with no affairs on either side. 
I also hate it when people like her go on about Christianity and yet flirt and cheat. Thankfully most Christians dont act this way and would never cheat. You can usually tell a genuine Christian by how they act, not by what they say. I would personally never trust anyone who flirts.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

C.C. says ... said:


> I’m going to take a stab at it since I’m bored and not doing anything else. I’m not very good at this, so take it with a grain of salt.
> 
> They have too much money. She feels entitled to another man.
> He sucks in bed. She feels entitled to another man.
> ...



She married him for the insurance coverage for the kid. (This happens a lot; especially around military bases)


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I dont get it either, it makes me mad, but some people, men and women, will never be content with the many good things they have in life.


My observation is folks don't tow the mark and walk the line because of the many good things they have or that you provide. They tow the mark and walk the line because the have a high level of respect and romantic interest in you. Excuse the way I put this and I know the same is true for men, show me a woman that marries for money and security and I'll show you a woman who will cheat.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> I have a hard time gauging women in this respect.
> I get flirted with and touched a lot.
> She invited me to stop by for lunch because I often was in her hotel's area, she was a major hotel manager.
> She was suttle and invited me in front of everyone. It seemed above board on the surface and she never did it again.
> I got the feeling it was Sly and so did a couple of my friends who were close to me but not her.


Are you sure you have a hard time? You see fine to me. 
You had noted her hitting on you, you observed that it was out of place, your mind had already made an imprint of it, and even though you placed it out of mind consciously, subconsciously you knew something was up - enough to remember it clearly now.

Your instincts are there, you simply have to learn to trust it. Regardless though, not much you can do at that point but to place bets, it's difficult to go up to a friend and say 'oh btw I got money on it that your wife is a s---k'


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> .... *no woman would try this with me.*
> ....


 I bet they all said that! Or maybe his problem was that he foolishly thought...no woman would try this with him.

There are always two sides to a story so I try not to get my panties in a twist about these things as it's next to impossible to know what's really going on.


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I'm not thinking as myself as a common denominator. I'm alarmed.
> 
> I'm going to do the math when I have time but it is approaching the range of 80-90% of the men I know and I'm friends with being cheated on.
> 
> 50% would be alarming but something is seriously sideways here.


Here's a question. Of the 80/90% of those men, how _masculine_ are they?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Laurentium said:


> Literally born that way, as in genetics? It could be partly genetic. I have no good evidence.
> But I think a lot of it is also childhood experiences. It doesn't really matter much what the causation is, and causation is an ill-defined concept anyway. But as AC said, it's not really because the OW is prettier, or the OM is wealthier.


If we only knew what makes people this way, but there are just too many examples of people coming from the worst circumstances who don't, and people coming from the best who do.

I am not saying this is every situation. Of course some people cheat because of environment or circumstance. 

I am really talking about the people who can go on for months, lying to everyone or who can do it over and over. People who prob best friends to see if they can make them a notch on their belt. There has to be something in you to let you do that without feeling guilt.

Look we know there are Narcissist right? Sociopaths? This is the same thing.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

VladDracul said:


> My observation is folks don't tow the mark and walk the line because of the many good things they have or that you provide. They tow the mark and walk the line because the have a high level of respect and romantic interest in you. Excuse the way I put this and I know the same is true for men, show me a woman that marries for money and security and I'll show you a woman who will cheat.


Someone who thinks this way is still a very bad bet, "level of respect or romantic interest" wane. Find the person who tows the line because they have a high level of respect for themselves. Because keeping their word is more important then their feelings. Because they think it's important to do and be good. 

That's the person you will be safest with. But understand you are never truly safe, you just have to make peace with that.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I have a hard time gauging women in this respect.
> 
> I get flirted with and touched a lot.
> 
> ...


I had a friends girlfriend do that to me. Years ago I also felt something was off but at first tried to talk myself out of it. She ended up cheating with someone else in the circle and blowing up the group. By that time I knew it what she was up to and I begged the guy to stop hanging out with her. He had just got divorced but it's no excuse. 

I think a lot of getting cheated on has to do with who you pick. Makes sense since I also think it's much of this has to do with who these people are.

Also now a days there are no consequences and it's easier to do it, but also get caught. I suspect if they did a genetic study it kids with different fathers would be a lot higher then we thought.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

JustTheWife said:


> I bet they all said that! Or maybe his problem was that he foolishly thought...no woman would try this with him.
> 
> There are always two sides to a story so I try not to get my panties in a twist about these things as it's next to impossible to know what's really going on.


Yeah. You missed my meaning.

This guy is a gem. He is very considerate, generous and gentle.

I'm barely civilized. I'm also not the guy people usually pick to try and **** with and that includes backstabbing women.

I just have trouble with this situation where these great guys get treated this way.

I'm not nearly the beautiful humans these men are but they get treated like this?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Luminous said:


> Here's a question. Of the 80/90% of those men, how _masculine_ are they?


I will take that into consideration.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> So I just got a group text from a long time friend that his marriage is ending because she was cheating and not really that motivated to stop.
> 
> We have known them for years. He is a very successful gentleman from Jamaica and she is a blonde haired blue eyed southern bell.
> 
> ...


That's extremely unfortunate.
Karma will roll over her dogma. May not be today, may not be tomorrow, may not be next week or next month. However, she eventually will get hers.
Some people just belong to the streets.
Obviously he needs a shark attorney and the best financial person he can find and strike while she is still enjoying her relocation to Loserland. 
The best revenge your friend can hand her is to live the good life without her on the payroll.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I don't ****ing get this!


I am willing to bet that somewhere along the line you got the message that women are these sweet and innocent, timid domestic creatures that value hearth and home above all else and who aren't as sexual as men and put the wants and needs of others above their own and who are innately monogamous. 

You've been lead to believe that men are the horny dogs and who's sexual depravity would over ride any sense of loyalty and fidelity but that women with their lesser sexual nature and greater sense of morality and ethical programing would never cheat on a man who is kind and giving and providing love and support for them. 

If you've been lead to believe that women have less of a sexual nature than men and more of a sense of morality and ethics than men and that women are more innately monogamous than men - you have simply been sold a social lie. 

I'm not saying there aren't some differences between the boys and girls. But I will say that boys and girls come from the same conception and stem cells (perhaps not the right technical term) 

Boys and girls may have some differing perspectives, but one is not more than and one is not less than the other in sexuality, morality or ethics. 

The older and more experienced I get and the more I learn about the world, the more I think the argument could be made that female sexuality can leave men sitting along the road in a cloud of dust wondering what just happened. 

And morality?? I think sociologically we as a society are still feeling reverberations from the Victorian Era where women were promoted as these pure, innocent, selfless beings devoid of sexual feelings and agendas and were seen as these paragons of domestic virtue. 

We need to remember that up until this era, women were seen as the immoral ones and the temptresses and the evil schemers. Arranged marriage, chastity belts, scarlet letters, bride burning, female circumcision, berkas, child marriage etc etc etc these were all devices in attempts throughout the ages to control female sexuality and stop female infidelity. This has been taking place since before biblical times and yet here we are. 

Even today there are countries that bar girls from education and employment and cover them head-to-toe in bedsheets in an effort to prevent infidelity and yet it still goes on. 

There are still countries that have death penalties for adulteresses and many more that may have laws on the books that say you can't kill your cheating wife but look the other way nonetheless. 

Bride burning still takes place in South America. 

Even in this country when I was in high school the Texas legislature was voting on a bill that would allow a husband who catches his wife and her lover in the act immunity from criminal charges if he were to kill them both...... and I'm willing to bet my very last penny there is cheat'n still going on in the great state of Texas. 

Women are not less sexual than men. 

Women are not more moral or ethical than men. 

Despite the biology classes and psychology classes we had in high school and college, women are not even more innately monogamous than men. Their relationship with monogamy vs nonmonogamy may be different, but a woman is no more likely to go to her grave only being with one man than a man is likely to go to his grave only being with one woman. 

And as you have been seeing with your own eyes, it does not matter how nice or how supportive or how loving a man is towards his partner, the potential of her stepping out is still there. 

This is real. It is timeless. It is part of the fabric of the human experience. 

Believe it.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

sokillme said:


> Someone who thinks this way is still a very bad bet, "level of respect or romantic interest" wane. Find the person who tows the line because they have a high level of respect for themselves. Because keeping their word is more important then their feelings. Because they think it's important to do and be good.
> 
> That's the person you will be safest with. But understand you are never truly safe, you just have to make peace with that.


If I was to list a bunch of attributes to look for, it would be:


She requires no validation, and carries herself with confidence
She takes pride in her integrity, and shame if she fails
She is transparent, an open book, with nothing to hide
She decides out of principle, not out of convenience
She is independent, and despises relying on others to achieve her goals
She is headstrong and willful, even stubborn

All my partners including my ex-wife (and even FWBs) have been of very high quality, and never betrayed my trust - even if some I never fully trusted, and they mostly all have those qualities. 

*BUT!*

Even that is not enough for me, it's what my gut says about them which I trust. A woman can have all those qualities as a front, or even have her own integral pride twisted into a sense of entitlement which can even make her into the very creature she despises, waking up one day and hating herself for what she did - but did it nonetheless when she could have avoided it. In the end if you just aren't at peace with her there's something wrong. Challenge is realising if it is fear or instinct. The trick is listening to the voice that says 'I know', rather than the voice that says 'What if'.

Just my two cents...


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> If I was to list a bunch of attributes to look for, it would be:
> 
> 
> She requires no validation, and carries herself with confidence
> ...


You've just described a dude! LOL


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

oldshirt said:


> You've just described a dude! LOL


Hahahahahahhaha 😄
Oh boy I hope you have readied your butt for the ass beating you're about to get from the alpha females here on this forum


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

VladDracul said:


> My observation is folks don't tow the mark and walk the line because of the many good things they have or that you provide. They tow the mark and walk the line because the have a high level of respect and romantic interest in you. Excuse the way I put this and I know the same is true for men, show me a woman that marries for money and security and I'll show you a woman who will cheat.


I tend to agree with you on this. 

The problem is in a LTR the limerence and NRE and the yearning passion tend to fade over time and even respect can wane with familiarity and time spent together once she sees him in his natural habitat. 

There's a saying going around the manosphere currently that goes - "She's not yours; it just your turn." 

There is some truth to that. We have life expectancies in the 80 year range. To expect to spend that with just one person happily ever after just isn't all that realistic.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I don't get why she betrayed him after everything he did for her and her son and the life he provided.


Most people easily forget the past. For example, we had good sex two days ago, so how about today? So, it's what have you done for me _recently_? And that's doubled if you've done something nice for _them_ recently.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Hahahahahahhaha 😄
> Oh boy I hope you have readied your butt for the ass beating you're about to get from the alpha females here on this forum


I'm not worried about the alpha females at all. They get it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I knew she wasn't that true to start but was convinced she grew up.
> 
> I don't get why she betrayed him after everything he did for her and her son and the life he provided.
> I obviously don't know their intimate details but this just seems so ****ty.


Keep in mind the story of the frog and the scorpion. A scorpion doesn't grow into a love bird with age.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

oldshirt said:


> I tend to agree with you on this.
> The problem is in a LTR the limerence and NRE and the yearning passion tend to fade over time and even respect can wane with familiarity and time spent together once she sees him in his natural habitat.
> There's a saying going around the manosphere currently that goes - "She's not yours; it just your turn."
> There is some truth to that. We have life expectancies in the 80 year range. To expect to spend that with just one person happily ever after just isn't all that realistic.


Well, if we rely on passion and respect alone then there is truth to that saying.
However, long term relationships that do well up and till the death bed has much more than that, love and passion are like roses and flames.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

sokillme said:


> If we only knew what makes people this way, but there are just too many examples of people coming from the worst circumstances who don't, and people coming from the best who do.
> 
> I am not saying this is every situation. Of course some people cheat because of environment or circumstance.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. My mum had a terrible childhood. Her dad died when she was 2 due to the damage mustard gas had on his lungs in WW1. Her mum was too poor to care for 5 small girls. Mum spent much of her childhood in a very strict unloving orphanage where they basically threw you out at age 16. Yet she had such amazing integrity, strong moral values, honesty and decency, and only ever had sex with my dad who she adored. I think that putting cheating down to a bad upbringing is a cop out. Its more due to having no integrity or strength of character.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Luminous said:


> Here's a question. Of the 80/90% of those men, how _masculine_ are they?


Everyone has a different idea of what makes a man masculine.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Diana7 said:


> Absolutely. My mum had a terrible childhood. Her dad died when she was 2 due to the damage mustard gas had on his lungs in WW1. Her mum was too poor to care for 5 small girls. Mum spent much of her childhood in a very strict unloving orphanage where they basically threw you out at age 16. Yet she had such amazing integrity, strong moral values, honesty and decency, and only ever had sex with my dad who she adored. I think that putting cheating down to a bad upbringing is a cop out. Its more due to having no integrity or strength of character.


Agreed, with one exception - back in the days when divorce was not always allowed, and the wife was subject to abuse with a husband who does not love or respect her - that's when I would be more understanding if a wife was to commit adultery.

No excuses these days though.


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## Nailhead (Sep 21, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I knew she wasn't that true to start but was convinced she grew up.


 Do the spots on a leopard really change?


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

sokillme said:


> I keep saying it on here over and over. *It's in their nature.* It really is who they are. There are cheaters and non-cheaters. They are like a subspecies of human being. I have come to believe most are just born that way. Now there are people who cheat because they go astray, but cheating is part of who this women is. You can treat them the best that anyone else will treat them, you can take care of their kids. You can do whatever, It doesn't matter because it's who they are.
> 
> The Frog and the Scorpion.
> 
> ...


Your last paragraph is very well said and right on the money. No one is the perfect paragon of virtue. 

If I were to disagree with anything said above, I think you may even be a bit too lenient and optimistic. I don't think anyone comes off the factory floor completely virtuous and without potential to lie, cheat, steal, kill etc given the circumstances, conditions and opportunities. 

Despite the inevitable denials that will quickly occur here, I don't think there is anyone that is completely immune that could 'never' cheat despite any and all circumstances. 

Nor do I think there is a perfect person that is immune from being cheated on. We all take our chances. 

But we all also have approximately 80 year life expectancies. A lot can happen and a lot can change in 80 years. 

To think one is too good to either cheat or be cheated on is naive and shortsighted.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

> Of course some people cheat because of environment or circumstance.


Does this couple live in an area where blondes are highly revered? I noticed, @ConanHub, you mentioned that she's a blonde.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Everyone has a different idea of what makes a man masculine.


Yeah and how do we even define masculinity today? 

I think the implication with the post is that a manly-man and dude with abz and eats meat and rides a Harley won't be cheated on. Now those are my words and not that of the poster. What he/she (I can't remember who posted it) really meant was someone with strong boundaries and willing and able to enforce those boundaries and would not tolerate cheating would be less likely to be cheated on. 

With that I would tend to agree. 

But I will go back to what is masculinity today and your point of masculinity means different things to different people. Is masculinity punching out someone in a bar because they looked at you wrong? Is masculinity working 65 hours a week coming home exhausted to provide for a SAHM and kids? Is it mate-guarding to the point of checking the odometer in the car when your wife is going to the grocery store and planting GPS trackers in the trunk or not letting your wife leave the house unescorted at all masculinity? Is it working out for hours a day so you have abz and gunz and tattoos? Where do we draw the line between masculinity and nonmasculinity?


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

oldshirt said:


> Your last paragraph is very well said and right on the money. No one is the perfect paragon of virtue.
> If I were to disagree with anything said above, I think you may even be a bit too lenient and optimistic. I don't think anyone comes off the factory floor completely virtuous and without potential to lie, cheat, steal, kill etc given the circumstances, conditions and opportunities.
> Despite the inevitable denials that will quickly occur here, I don't think there is anyone that is completely immune that could 'never' cheat despite any and all circumstances.
> Nor do I think there is a perfect person that is immune from being cheated on. We all take our chances.
> ...


It can happen, but it doesn't mean one has to surrender to this so-called ''inevitability"

Years ago when I was young and dating my ex-wife I had thought I had cheated whilst drunk via a drunken kiss based on a testimony of someone else present. I accepted full responsibility for it even I could not remember, and years later based on other testimony it turned out it never even happened and was just what people had thought during the party. Regardless of whether or not it happened, I identified alcohol as a potential weakness and I've been sober for years now.

You are correct that there is no immunity to being cheated on either, as cautious as I am, it's still a risk and I acknowledge that. There's always a possibility as we can't all be steel clad and alert all the time. However I like to consider making the right choices - taking calculated risks, and not taking your chances on bad odds when you can help it.

We all have our moral codes as well, I despise liars, cheaters and theft, but have no issue with murder if the cause is considered just and legalised, e.g. rapists need to be impaled.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Or. Maybe he was highly attracted to blondes? Was she, to him, a trophy wife? You know — the age-old trade for some of beauty for money (or at least a better life). That’s been happening since the beginning of time and love has nothing to do with it. The world is full of users and it’s unfortunate but it’s reality. In any event, I hope he is able to move on from this and be happy in his new life.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Yeah and how do we even define masculinity today?
> 
> I think the implication with the post is that a manly-man and dude with abz and eats meat and rides a Harley won't be cheated on. Now those are my words and not that of the poster. What he/she (I can't remember who posted it) really meant was someone with strong boundaries and willing and able to enforce those boundaries and would not tolerate cheating would be less likely to be cheated on.
> 
> With that I would tend to agree.


Not me. That person might be less likely to _tolerate _being cheated on, but that doesn't translate into inoculation against it happening in the first place.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> Everyone has a different idea of what makes a man masculine.


I am going to throw this one out there too in regards to masculinity. 

A guy that I know personally wife cheated on him recently. He hid cameras in the house and caught her on camera in their own home with her AP. She had been gaslighting him and telling him he was imagining it and that all of their marital woes were due to him. He hid the cameras, caught them in the act and posted the pictures to Facebook and I saw them with my own two eyes until facebook took them down about 2 minutes later. I just happened to be at the right place at the right time and saw with my own eyes. 

He is career military. Fit and buff. Good looking. Charming and outgoing personality. Very supportive with a steady income. Very involved and doting father. Has good quality tattoos. Well educated and lots of life experience and well traveled. Rides a Harley. And he is a lady's man and has been with lots and lots of chicks. 

Can we agree that he meets much of what society would consider masculinity? 

OK well not only did his wife cheat on him and gaslight him for a long time but here is the punchline 
- HER AP WAS A WOMAN. 

So how much was his masculinity or lack there of a factor in him being cheated on?? 

And when she did cheat - it was with another chick. So if she is get'n down with another chick, how much masculine energy was she really missing in her marriage and how would have masculinity prevented this if she was wanting to rub it with another woman anyway? 

Now yes, someone can come back and say he was TOO MASCULINE and she needed the comforts of another woman. So where is the perfect line. 

I have had two different women dump me for other women as well. Was I not masculine enough or was I too masculine that they preferred the soft touch of another woman. 

Where is the perfect strike zone of masculinity that you don't have women straying because they need more masculinity vs straying because they need a woman's touch??


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

RandomDude said:


> Agreed, with one exception - back in the days when divorce was not always allowed, and the wife was subject to abuse with a husband who does not love or respect her - that's when I would be more understanding if a wife was to commit adultery.
> 
> No excuses these days though.


I do think that affairs were rarer then though, generally men and women didnt work together and so many women didnt go out to work at all. Today a large number of affairs are with work colleagues.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> Where is the perfect strike zone of masculinity that you don't have women straying because they need more masculinity vs straying because they need a woman's touch??


There is no such zone. Every person is an individual. I'm sure we could have a discussion about populations and distributions and such, but that would only capture averages. Which never apply to the individual.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

oldshirt said:


> I am going to throw this one out there too in regards to masculinity.
> ...
> Where is the perfect strike zone of masculinity that you don't have women straying because they need more masculinity vs straying because they need a woman's touch??


All the more reason I mentioned that it's not about who you are but who you choose.

You can be macho man, the most effeminate male or any shade in between but if you chose a sk--k then it is what it is.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> Does this couple live in an area where blondes are highly revered? I noticed, @ConanHub, you mentioned that she's a blonde.


I don't think so. I don't think her hair had much to do with it though her physical desirability could easily have been a factor. She actually put on loads of weight in the years since we first met them.

She's pretty and was definitely tempting physically several years ago but definitely not now.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I do think that affairs were rarer then though, generally men and women didnt work together and so many women didnt go out to work at all. Today a large number of affairs are with work colleagues.


I question that. I have the feeling if there was some kind of all-seeing oracle of infidelity, that cheating has been timeless and has probably remained fairly constant throughout history. 

There will be different manners and opportunities and a variety of nuances that ebb and flow with changes in populations, demographics and social standards and norms and economic factors and such, but I think if all were known, that infidelity has always been a part of the fabric of the human experience. 

How much of the bible and the Koran etc geared towards adultery and yet here we are thousands of years later still dealing with it. Adultery has survived stoning, burning at the stake, castration, male and female circumcision, divorce laws, alimony/palimony etc etc and yet here we are. It's timeless. 

Can one argue that there were only 1,457,129 instances of adultery in 1832 vs 3,045,386 instances of adultery today? Yeah sure probably. But does it really matter? When you factor in the increase of population and economics and gender roles and employment demographics etc etc, it probably all comes out pretty close in the end. 

And then if you factor in the number of people that WANTED to get some strange back then but were living out in the middle of the prairie surrounding by sage brush and prairie dogs, it's probably all the same. I don't see how people have really changed all that much in the last several thousand years. Moses said not to do it. Jesus said not to do it. Muhammed said not to do it. Bhudda said not to do it. Yet here we are.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Affaircare said:


> @ConanHub,
> 
> Women think that men cheat because the OW is prettier or younger...and yet the absolutely most beautiful women in the world are cheated on (Halle Berry in her day...Jennifer Aniston...etc.). If THEY can't keep their man, how in the heck could a "regular" woman?
> 
> ...


So you are saying they “affair down” so that they can feel superior to someone? This would make sense in a strangely twisted way actually. Hm.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Diana7 said:


> I do think that affairs were rarer then though, generally men and women didnt work together and so many women didnt go out to work at all. Today a large number of affairs are with work colleagues.


Let me put it this way. I used to watch Little House on the Prairie all the time when it came out when I was a little kid.

On the show Caroline Ingalls was the archetypal SAHM that tended to the garden and took care of the kids. We rarely saw her in a typical 9-5 as we know them today.

However, Mr Edwards sure seemed to be at the house all the goddam time doing a ton of fixer-upper chores for which you never saw Charles pay him a red cent for his efforts, and Caroline always seemed to get top dollar for her eggs and always seemed to get a price reduction from Nells Olson at the Olson Mercantile.

Things that make you go hhhmmmmmmmm????? ;-)


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> You are correct that there is no immunity to being cheated on either, as cautious as I am, it's still a risk and I acknowledge that. There's always a possibility as we can't all be steel clad and alert all the time. However I like to consider making the right choices - taking calculated risks, and not taking your chances on bad odds when you can help it.
> .


I agree with that. 

I liken it to driving a car. If you always wear your seat belt. Never drive drunk. Stay off your phone. Always stay alert and follow all traffic laws and regulations, you are not guaranteed of never being hurt or killed in a car wreck but you significantly reduce your chance than if you followed none of those rules. 

It does come down to the fact that you can do everything in your power to be a safe and responsible driver, but you can't control the other guy. If the other person is drunk and txting and then suddenly cross the centerline right in front of you, you can still be screwed.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> Yeah. You missed my meaning.
> 
> This guy is a gem. He is very considerate, generous and gentle.
> 
> ...


In my friendship groups it’s the opposite, the men are doing the cheating, most of them emotional and physical, some of them are financial cheaters that hide money from their wives or gamble it away. 
Perhaps it’s just the birds of a feather idea. Maybe it’s regional. I don’t know. I’m hoping to create a whole new group of friends that have things like morals. And values. And ethics. And I definitely have so little trust in males OR females currently. I’ve had some pretty crappy girlfriends in my life that tried hooking up with my boyfriends too. Obviously, trash people gravitate toward me and it’s something I need to fix. Maybe you and I are opposite sides of the same coin.


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> Everyone has a different idea of what makes a man masculine.


That's where you are wrong Diana7. There are certain things that are hard wired into the human brain that go beyond a person's 'idea' of what is masculine. You are talking about the conscious mind, I am not.

Every look at someone and without thinking, get an impulse of 'there is something about that person that tells me they know how to handle themselves'...? THAT is similar to what I am referring to. It's not about an act, it's about something deep within being projected outwards that is automatically picked up by most people.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Luminous said:


> That's where you are wrong Diana7. There are certain things that are hard wired into the human brain that go beyond a person's 'idea' of what is masculine. You are talking about the conscious mind, I am not.
> 
> Every look at someone and without thinking, get an impulse of 'there is something about that person that tells me they know how to handle themselves'...? THAT is similar to what I am referring to. It's not about an act, it's about something deep within being projected outwards that is automatically picked up by most people.


She will remain unconvinced but I will get back to you on your question because I know what you are asking


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Cletus said:


> Not me. That person might be less likely to _tolerate _being cheated on, but that doesn't translate into inoculation against it happening in the first place.


No it does not innoculate one against getting cheated on. 

However I do think the less tolerance one has for something (and everyone knows it) I do think the chances of it happening will be less. 

Look at all these beta boyz here and on SI who's wife has either been in a LTA for months and years and these guys keep posting for months on end what they should do to stop his wife's affair because she continues to see the guy and also the guys who's wives are now on their 3rd or 4th AP. 

These guys tolerate it so it continues to happen and tends to happen again and again because these women know that these betas will continue to support and provision them. 

They really have nothing to lose and they have a lot to gain from continuing to cheat. 

However if there is someone who has a spine and some big brass ones that will simply not tolerate it and she knows deep in her heart that she will get tossed to the curb immediately, I do believe the chances are less that it will be simply an act of convenience because she is horny, wants some attention and validation and the handsome guy at the bar or the gym is putting it out there. 

In the case of true marital discord and she believes that the the potential AP is a bigger and better deal for her and she believes the AP will take her, I don't think Clint Eastwood, The Rock or John Cena themselves would be able to stop her.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Luminous said:


> That's where you are wrong Diana7. There are certain things that are hard wired into the human brain that go beyond a person's 'idea' of what is masculine. You are talking about the conscious mind, I am not.
> 
> Every look at someone and without thinking, get an impulse of 'there is something about that person that tells me they know how to handle themselves'...? THAT is similar to what I am referring to. It's not about an act, it's about something deep within being projected outwards that is automatically picked up by most people.


I also get where you are coming from and don't necessarily disagree. 

But I think the essence of what you are talking about here comes down to boundaries and the willingness and ability to enforce them. 

I think a guy could be a flaming, flamboyant, bisexual, cross dressing SAHD who's main hobby is making door wreaths with the neighborhood mom's group and still have strong boundaries and still have that presence that you refer to above. 

And there are probably some NFL linebackers that clean themselves up so people don't scuff their shoes when they use him as a doormat. 

I would agree that someone with strong boundaries who isn't afraid to nuke the relationship from orbit if violated, will on average have less boundary violations than someone who doesn't. 

But even then, they are not immune. The guy I know that I talked about in post #66 could sweep a whole bar full of bikers if they pushed him. He could have his pick of just about any woman in a room. No one would ever think of him as anything but a very dominant, masculine man. 

Yet his wife gaslighted him for many months and then was caught on camera with a woman no less. So it definately ain't like she went out looking for strange because he wasn't manly enough.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Luminous said:


> Here's a question. Of the 80/90% of those men, how _masculine_ are they?


I would say couple were fairly masculine but most were probably not that high on the scale. One of the masculine guys hooked up with a nut job and one only had it happen once under mitigating circumstances. She basically went on a date with a guy (still cheating) and he basically didn't take no for an answer. She was devastated by what she allowed to happen and established healthy boundaries with her then boyfriend, now husband, and they have been good since. She was a bit of a bombshell physically and not overly bright. He was a very masculine MMA fighter.

Fortunately the % is looking more like 65 though that is still pretty crazy.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

The thing that is really bending my noodle is that a few of these guys really are prince Charming. I can't understand why they get treated this way.

It is like kicking a puppy and we all know, thanks to John Wick, how popular people who kick puppies are.

Bob Ross and Mr. Rogers were both wonderful and gentle men that brought beauty to the world.

Kneecapping them and kicking the hell out of them makes no damn sense.

I'm a magnitude uglier than guys like this and I don't get messed with. I also have a good picker but I still don't get why treasures like this get treated this way.


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> I also get where you are coming from and don't necessarily disagree.
> 
> But I think the essence of what you are talking about here comes down to boundaries and the willingness and ability to enforce them.
> 
> ...


I agree that no one is 100% immune from having partners step out.

When I describe Masculine energy, it is not just about domination. That can play a part at times but it is only one piece of the pie. 

Chances are, if the guy makes it clear to the woman from the start that he doesn't need her (but wants her), it clicks off something in her mind that she can't have 'one over on him' because she will be dropped like a lead turd if she so much as moves towards any other man (in a metaphorical sense).

Essentially, it's about making sure that they never view you from a 'Motherly' perspective, but always from a girlfriend/partner/wife one.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> She basically went on a date with a guy (still cheating) and he basically didn't take no for an answer. She was devastated by what she allowed to happen and established healthy boundaries with her then boyfriend, now husband, and they have been good since. .


You see, this is where you are falling for 'good girl' narrative I spoke of earlier. 

I'm willing to bet that the real story is behind closed doors in the dark (figuratively speaking) she rode him like Secretariat and sucked him dry and asked for more. 

She may have turned on the waterworks and let the tears flow when she realized Stud Boy wasn't coming back and then got caught by her BF and she was trying to do damage control. 

But in the moment, it was like a porn set. 

Women are not of lesser sexuality or greater morality. She was not a victim. She was a willing and enthusiastic and horny participant in the moment. But playing the good-girl-lead-astray-and-now-remorseful card on you. 

You can either swallow the red pill and get this. Or keep popping the blue pills and claiming you don't understand.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> You see, this is where you are falling for 'good girl' narrative I spoke of earlier.
> 
> I'm willing to bet that the real story is behind closed doors in the dark (figuratively speaking) she rode him like Secretariat and sucked him dry and asked for more.
> 
> ...


I'm under no illusions and this was investigated and substantiated by objective parties.

She thought she could push a boundary and ended up getting hers pushed in ways she didn't want.

She was stupid and eventually had to own up to her poor decision.

She owned her stupid decision to have a date with another man but it was verified that she was reluctant/non consensual with the sex.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

Its sad to hear that, but is also sad how much we go back n forth about why people cheat..... Simply because they CAN when an opportunity presents itself.
And honestly, there really arent a lot of serious consequences (except when it gets really bad and someone goes crazy shooting) for cheating (if even caught at all)
I often wonder if legal laws were put in place where punishment would be jail time, i wonder how much more it would happen or not happen.... Am not suggesting this as any solution , but just a thought experiment "what if" type. 

I also really strongly believe that unresolved childhood trauma has a very proven and strong link to adulthood infidelity.....whenever we question why someone cheated this should be like the number 1 determining factor to find out

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

CantBelieveThis said:


> Its sad to hear that, but is also sad how much we go back n forth about why people cheat..... Simply because they CAN when an opportunity presents itself.
> And honestly, there really arent a lot of serious consequences (except when it gets really bad and someone goes crazy shooting) for cheating (if even caught at all)
> I often wonder if legal laws were put in place where punishment would be jail time, i wonder how much more it would happen or not happen.... Am not suggesting this as any solution , but just a thought experiment "what if" type.
> 
> ...


But at some point, as one gets older, with maturity the childhood trauma is recognized, addressed, and filed away, and shouldn't be an eternal crutch.

More importantly not an eternal excuse for poor behavior.


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

ConanHub said:


> The thing that is really bending my noodle is that a few of these guys really are prince Charming. I can't understand why they get treated this way.
> 
> It is like kicking a puppy and we all know, thanks to John Wick, how popular people who kick puppies are.


Simply put - because people will do whatever they can get away with.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> The thing that is really bending my noodle is that a few of these guys really are prince Charming. I can't understand why they get treated this way.


Familiarity gets boring, newness bring excitement. Psychologist agree this as influential in human behavior, and its called "motivational salience"


Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk


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## gold5932 (Jun 10, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I'm not worried about the alpha females at all. They get it.


Exactly


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> Yeah. You missed my meaning.
> 
> This guy is a gem. He is very considerate, generous and gentle.
> 
> ...


I'm not convinced. The guys who make being so tough part of their personas are usually the easiest to "play".

Plus that whole "nobody messes with me" thing gets really old and I think can create a feeling of needing something else.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

JustTheWife said:


> I'm not convinced. The guys who make being so tough part of their personas are usually the easiest to "play".
> 
> Plus that whole "nobody messes with me" thing gets really old and I think can create a feeling of needing something else.


You missed again but that is par for the course.

I consider myself garbage compared to some of these guys.

I had all my softness ripped away during childhood and I have an abundance of hardness and sharp edges left. I don't consider myself as valuable to humanity as a Bob Ross or Mr. Rogers or some of these men with exceptional gentleness and love.

What I do have is very hard earned knowledge about the depths people can go to and I'm not easily fooled by people.

If you want a look at me, look up my archives and that is the G rated version.

Otherwise, quit thread jacking because you are missing that I don't think I'm as valuable as some of these gentleman but I'm way better equipped to deal with conflict.

I wish I was being messed with instead of them. I can deal with it better.

Again, I don't understand why women hurt some of these great guys. If you can't read that plainly and stop your ridiculous analysis of me, start another thread and I'll be happy to talk to you there about it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

CantBelieveThis said:


> I often wonder if legal laws were put in place where punishment would be jail time, i wonder how much more it would happen or not happen.... Am not suggesting this as any solution , but just a thought experiment "what if" type.


There are places where people can still be imprisoned or even executed for adultery. 

And there are a probably quite a few places where laws against harming or killing your cheating spouse on the books but people tend to look the other way or it ends up being a slap on the wrist.

....and cheating still occurs in those places. 

We’ve got a million years of evolution against us. We are hardwired to get what we can and find ways to justify to ourselves getting what we want. 

We aren’t hardwired to only be with one person our whole lives. 

Laws don’t stop people from robbing banks or liquor stores or from killing people that piss them off. So they certainly aren’t going to stop people from scoring some extra.


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## JustTheWife (Nov 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> You missed again but that is par for the course.
> 
> I consider myself garbage compared to some of these guys.
> 
> ...


I'm not thread jacking. Many posts on this thread are themed as "nice guys get taken advantage of" (many yours). So an observation of self-declared "tough guys" in this regard is right on topic. Directly on topic. No analysis of you. Just a general observation of "tough guys"...the ole "don't mess with me or you'll be sorry" types. The ones with the "I can take care of myself" airs. We all know the type.

I never commented on how valuable you think you are or are not. Therefore I am not missing anything. I get your point loud and clear...you think you're not as nice and not as "valuable" but at least you would never stand for this from some woman.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

The Hite report stated that over 70% of people have cheated in their marriage. Humans simply are not monogamous (of course, _some _are, but it's a minority, and there is a diverse range of behaviors). Society tries to make them behave monogamously, but fails badly. Without monogamy there'd be no cheaters!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Luminous said:


> Here's a question. Of the 80/90% of those men, how _masculine_ are they?


Over 70% of men cheat, so a large majority must be masculine. And most of them have been or will be cheated on just the same.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> don't get why women hurt men like this.


I am usually the last one to invoke gender equality but men do it to women too, in spades. I’ve read enough painful stories from faithful betrayed wives crying out in agony and confusion at their husband’s terrible behavior and choices to believe that basically both genders have parity on this. I think it’s better to think of humanity as being in two tribes - the Faithful and the Unfaithful. Just sayin


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> Over 70% of men cheat, so a large majority must be masculine. And most of them have been or will be cheated on just the same.


That may be true, although I am curious where the 70% figure you state was pulled from, but this is not what we are talking about. This isn't a 'tit for tat' debate.

Conan is wondering why so many of _his_ mates are being cheated on.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Thumos said:


> I am usually the last one to invoke gender equality but men do it to women too, in spades. I’ve read enough painful stories from faithful betrayed wives crying out in agony and confusion at their husband’s terrible behavior and choices to believe that basically both genders have parity on this. I think it’s better to think of humanity as being in two tribes - the Faithful and the Unfaithful. Just sayin


Yes, thank you. All kinds of trash on both sides for sure.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Thumos said:


> I am usually the last one to invoke gender equality but men do it to women too, in spades. I’ve read enough painful stories from faithful betrayed wives crying out in agony and confusion at their husband’s terrible behavior and choices to believe that basically both genders have parity on this. I think it’s better to think of humanity as being in two tribes - the Faithful and the Unfaithful. Just sayin


I'm not women bashing here.

It just so happens that my friend is a man so that is that.

If my friend was a woman who had swooped in and rescued a man and his child while giving them a wonderful life, I would be saying I don't understand how men can hurt women like this.

He's a man so that is all.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

JustTheWife said:


> I'm not thread jacking. Many posts on this thread are themed as "nice guys get taken advantage of" (many yours). So an observation of self-declared "tough guys" in this regard is right on topic. Directly on topic. No analysis of you. Just a general observation of "tough guys"...the ole "don't mess with me or you'll be sorry" types. The ones with the "I can take care of myself" airs. We all know the type.
> 
> I never commented on how valuable you think you are or are not. Therefore I am not missing anything. I get your point loud and clear...you think you're not as nice and not as "valuable" but at least you would never stand for this from some woman.


Your need to debunk or contradict my statements about myself are definitely thread jacks. Please stop it and start your own thread with your need to challenge whatever.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Luminous said:


> That may be true, although I am curious where the 70% figure you state was pulled from, but this is not what we are talking about. This isn't a 'tit for tat' debate.
> 
> Conan is wondering why so many of _his_ mates are being cheated on.


The stats are from the Sher Hite report in the early 1990s. If over 70% of women cheat during marriage (usually in the first 5 years, I think the report said), then most of Conan's friends will fall under that statistic - and it is very possible that many of them have also cheated even if they won't say so (a study by Hite a couple of years later showed over 72% of men cheated, too).


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## Luminous (Jan 14, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> The stats are from the Sher Hite report in the early 1990s. If over 70% of women cheat during marriage (usually in the first 5 years, I think the report said), then most of Conan's friends will fall under that statistic - and it is very possible that many of them have also cheated even if they won't say so (a study by Hite a couple of years later showed over 72% of men cheated, too).


I question the validity and relevance of a report that is from 30 years ago, before the introduction of the internet, social media, dating sites, hook up sites etc.

Human nature may be human nature, but the lack of accountability and the availability of casual sex since the advent of the internet has given that nature an adrenaline shot.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Married but Happy said:


> The stats are from the Sher Hite report in the early 1990s. If over 70% of women cheat during marriage (usually in the first 5 years, I think the report said), then most of Conan's friends will fall under that statistic - and it is very possible that many of them have also cheated even if they won't say so (a study by Hite a couple of years later showed over 72% of men cheated, too).


That 70% is the number that ‘fessed up to it. I assume many will take it to their grave and not even check a box on a survey. 

- and as noted above, this was 30 years ago before Tinder, Ashley Madison, Adult Friend Finder etc etc. 

I have the feeling in order to get the true number, every man and woman would would have to have hidden cameras on them 24/7 until their death. 

Another interesting method would be to inject 85 year olds on their death bed with truth serum. 

A lot can happen in an 80 year life expectancy.

I have the feeling that if you were to invoke either of those methods and count emotional entanglements, stolen kisses, getting feely etc in the office broom closet and such, the percentage would be approaching darn near everyone but the incels and 40 year old virgin types.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I appreciate the input here. It definitely helped to vent and some of these numbers might just be adding up though it blows my mind when this happens to certain people.

It's like the world isn't crappy enough without hurting some of the best of us.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

And...... My percentage of friends and acquaintances who have been cheated on is standing at about 65% which might corelate with some studies.

Maybe my friends are just better at catching it than average?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> That 70% is the number that ‘fessed up to it. I assume many will take it to their grave and not even check a box on a survey.
> 
> - and as noted above, this was 30 years ago before Tinder, Ashley Madison, Adult Friend Finder etc etc.
> 
> ...


I'll agree with you about almost everyone getting a little too close emotionally, a stupid drunken kiss or grope or hug that goes too long.

That stuff is almost a learning curve. I do think a lot of people learn and avoid it later.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I wonder how much those statistics are actually impacted by the would be cheater's mate?

Obviously how amazingly nice, gentle and generous a person is isn't much of a deterrent.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I'll agree with you about almost everyone getting a little too close emotionally, a stupid drunken kiss or grope or hug that goes too long.
> 
> That stuff is almost a learning curve. I do think a lot of people learn and avoid it later.


Some learn and avoid. 

Others are emboldened and inspired to go further.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> Some learn and avoid.
> 
> Others are emboldened and inspired to go further.


LoL! Yup.

I guess I keep placing too much faith in ****ty human nature.

I know people can choose to be different but I guess man, if not most, don't take that option.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

It kind of sounds like she married him for what he could do for her. I just think guys know that and go along with it because they want to. Sounds like he has enough money that spinning it on a woman wasn't that big of a deal to him. She's probably looking for the next one.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> It kind of sounds like she married him for what he could do for her. I just think guys know that and go along with it because they want to. Sounds like he has enough money that spinning it on a woman wasn't that big of a deal to him. She's probably looking for the next one.


She is stupid or deranged then because she is now fat with health problems and the idiot she cheated with probably can't even take care of himself.

My friend isn't a sugar daddy. She is an incompetent "trophy" wife wannabe if she thinks she can snag another well off man.

Maybe this is a swan song of a failed gold digger.

In her younger days I could see her doing it.

She ran with NFL cheerleaders and even invited some of them over to sample my cooking.

She is not attractive enough to pull it off now and is cheating way down the food chain.

My friend really loved her and her son.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> LoL! Yup.
> 
> I guess I keep placing too much faith in ****ty human nature.
> 
> I know people can choose to be different but I guess man, if not most, don't take that option.


This thread has been harsh and even a bit uncomfortable for me to read at times. 

But I will concede that most people do not cheat most of the time. 

Additionally, given our strong desire to mate and our innate self-centered ness, it’s actually a bit impressive that as many people remain as faithful as they do. 

Again, 80+ years is a long time and a lot can happen.

If someone had been faithful for 40 years and their partner gets sick and has dementia and no longer remembers their spouse and their spouse gets close to a trusted friend and they have a discrete and compassionate relationship - is that adultery? Are they a cheater?

If someone cheats on an abusive and drunken spouse in their mid 20s while their partner is at the bar until they divorce, and they remarry a handful of years later and are faithful to that partner for the next 50 years - are they a cheater?

Is it cheating if announce the marriage over, file for divorce, and then begin dating during the months/year+ it takes to finalize divorce? 

Is it cheating if your spouse declares they no longer will have intimacy with you, don’t really want to talk to you or be close to you but but you have young children and one of you needs a couple years to complete an education/job training to become gainfully employed - is that actually cheating if another relationship begins before a divorce? 

I can go on but my point is all of things would technically be classified as adultery in a survey. But are they actually malfeasance or a technicality? 

Over the course of time, a lot of people cheat to one degree at one time or another.

But in any given time period, it’s probably more surprising how many people don’t.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Luminous said:


> I question the validity and relevance of a report that is from 30 years ago, before the introduction of the internet, social media, dating sites, hook up sites etc.
> 
> Human nature may be human nature, but the lack of accountability and the availability of casual sex since the advent of the internet has given that nature an adrenaline shot.


No doubt things have accelerated since the early 90s. If 70% or more of both sexes cheated then, it's probably higher now that finding partners is so much easier due to technology. However, the various studies ranging from Masters and Johnson in the 50s to modern research indicates an general increase in the percentages of respondents admitting to cheating.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

oldshirt said:


> This thread has been harsh and even a bit uncomfortable for me to read at times.
> 
> But I will concede that most people do not cheat most of the time.
> 
> ...


I don't know man. I'm a god damned barbarian cursed with an I.Q. and I started studying this and found TAM after a close friend ended his life over this ****ing ******** and another close friend had it happen to him.

I'm admittedly a recovering ass hole but no one messes with me and that is just an objective statement.

My buddy was the best father I have ever witnessed outside of God. Understand?

I was humbled by how damned good he was with his daughter and he ****ing killed himself because of a bunch of ******** religious influence and the God damned biased court system.

It's ****ing God damned evil that a good man was destroyed because a ****ing whores crotch was empowered by our laws and faulty religious teachings.

I talked to him a week before he died and I did not have good knowledge.

I have been searching ever since and I haven't lost another friend to a ****ing ***** again.

I'm not trying to paint women with a broad brush but I am absolutely painting selfish cheating whores as the God damned monsters they truly are.

I'm not trying to incite a gender debate. I know there are a lot of vile men treating decent women horribly.

This is just my rant for my friends.

They are better men than me but I don't get hurt except when they do.

God damnit!


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> She is stupid or deranged then because she is now fat with health problems and the idiot she cheated with probably can't even take care of himself.
> 
> My friend isn't a sugar daddy. She is an incompetent "trophy" wife wannabe if she thinks she can snag another well off man.
> 
> ...


Well her background may explain everything. She was used to getting what she wanted if she was that hot before. Now one thing that's probably going on is she still trying to convince her still she's still got it. 

She is probably getting ready to have to face a new reality.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well her background may explain everything. She was used to getting what she wanted if she was that hot before. Now one thing that's probably going on is she still trying to convince her still she's still got it.
> 
> She is probably getting ready to have to face a new reality.


I just can't comprehend the derangement.

If she is all about selling her hotness, why destroy her sure thing with a man who loved her even through she got fat?

I think we must be doomed if this *** is so common.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

If her background is that she was one of those lucky extra attractive women, then it's very likely she just always got whatever she wanted even if she wasn't trying to manipulate someone. When you're young and gorgeous men treat you better and try harder as just a general rule and there are always exceptions. 

She may just think that's how life will always be for her. Of course no one really knows what's going on between her and that man. It may have all fizzled.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> If her background is that she was one of those lucky extra attractive women, then it's very likely she just always got whatever she wanted even if she wasn't trying to manipulate someone. When you're young and gorgeous men treat you better and try harder as just a general rule and there are always exceptions.
> 
> She may just think that's how life will always be for her. Of course no one really knows what's going on between her and that man. It may have all fizzled.


Maybe. My friend thinks the jack wad is influencing her to try and soak him for more money.

He is setting up to kick her fat ass in court.

She is obviously self destructing in my humble POV.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Well I hope everything turns out all right for him.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Well I hope everything turns out all right for him.


I appreciate your sentiments. I'm praying for him. He invested years of his life for this woman and has been the only father his stepson has ever known.

What the hell is wrong with people?!!!!

Why?!!!!!?


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

Some people are just users. But you never really know what's going on between a couple.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

DownByTheRiver said:


> Some people are just users. But you never really know what's going on between a couple.


I acknowledge that I don't know the intimate details but I have known them for many years and he has always been a class act and someone I respect.

She started off trying to get a nooner with me and it looks like she didn't change her spots.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I don't know man. I'm a god damned barbarian cursed with an I.Q. and I started studying this and found TAM after a close friend ended his life over this *ing ***** and another close friend had it happen to him.
> 
> I'm admittedly a recovering ass hole but no one messes with me and that is just an objective statement.
> 
> ...


I am not saying I am supportive of suicide, I am not, but I understand it. The pain is something I couldn’t have ever imagined until I felt it, still feel. The magnitude of it is humbling. 

Im sorry that this happened to your friends. You may think you’re not as good of a person as they are, but you’re a good friend. I’m sure they appreciate that very much.


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## DownByTheRiver (Jul 2, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> I acknowledge that I don't know the intimate details but I have known them for many years and he has always been a class act and someone I respect.
> 
> She started off trying to get a nooner with me and it looks like she didn't change her spots.


He had to know some of that about her. Anyway I hope things work out.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

If you find an answer to your question you will be a millionaire if you can bottle it.
sorry for your friend. Sucks. I speak from Experience.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> If you find an answer to your question you will be a millionaire if you can bottle it.
> sorry for your friend. Sucks. I speak from Experience.


LoL! I appreciate it.

I actually could have been a millionaire and still could pull it off but it just doesn't suit me. Maybe in another ten years? 😉🤠


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> I have the feeling that if you were to invoke either of those methods and count emotional entanglements, stolen kisses, getting feely etc in the office broom closet and such, the percentage would be approaching darn near everyone but the incels and 40 year old virgin types.


So if you’ve been faithful in a quarter century of marriage and took your vows as a blood oath before God, produced children that are certainly yours and had sex 4-5 times a week on average — and never strayed at all, not for a stolen kiss, nor for a romantic gesture, not a touch, nor even an inappropriate word, where does that put one?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Thumos said:


> So if you’ve been faithful in a quarter century of marriage and took your vows as a blood oath before God, produced children that are certainly yours and had sex 4-5 times a week on average — and never strayed at all, not for a stolen kiss, nor for a romantic gesture, not a touch, nor even an inappropriate word, where does that put one?


I was agreeing with him but thinking about situations mostly before marriage with girlfriends and when I was a lot younger and stupider.😉


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

oldshirt said:


> There are places where people can still be imprisoned or even executed for adultery.


That's true, in the middle east (and other Muslim countries), if you commit adultery (Man or Women) and you are "married" and was proven, it could mount up to a capital punishment.
The % of adultery over there is extremely low because of the huge fallout if you get caught, and there is no such thing as reconciliation from adultery over there!
I worked there for over 10 years, cheating there is not fun and games, it's very hard and dangerous!
On the other hand divorce is fast, it's around three months when initiated and no 50/50 splits of assets and no alimony.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

The problem is we lack solid statistics which we may never have.... So i have given up trying to figure out how many cheat or don't, is pointless.
We are better off fighting world hunger and diseases, than worrying so much about marriage fidelity. 
I do attribute the cell phone to the main contributor to facilitating opportunities for affairs, because it seems that affairs are rampant now since the cell phone showed up, OR, there really hasnt been any rise in affairs, is just that we have so much more communication now and the word spreads around.... So we dont really know..... But the fact that now a simple small device that can store and process so much information AND has somehow become a "private thing" then logically we all know it will be used for good and bad intent. 


Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> The stats are from the Sher Hite report in the early 1990s. If over 70% of women cheat during marriage (usually in the first 5 years, I think the report said), then most of Conan's friends will fall under that statistic - and it is very possible that many of them have also cheated even if they won't say so (a study by Hite a couple of years later showed over 72% of men cheated, too).


Yup, sounds about right. Most people suck as I mentioned in my initial posts. Their nature oozes out of them if you learn to trust your instincts, and then you realise, cheating has become normalised. 

It's also reflective on our society how socially acceptable it has become, for obvious reasons - which I have to stress again; most people just suck.



ConanHub said:


> *She is stupid or deranged then because she is now fat with health problems and the idiot she cheated with probably can't even take care of himself.*
> My friend isn't a sugar daddy. She is an incompetent "trophy" wife wannabe if she thinks she can snag another well off man.
> Maybe this is a swan song of a failed gold digger.
> In her younger days I could see her doing it.
> ...


Hahahahahahhha they all are 😄 
Don't even bother trying to understand the rationale of cheaters

Put them in a box and move on 

Rather invest my social energy on those who are more worthy human beings


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

oldshirt said:


> Yeah and how do we even define masculinity today?
> 
> I think the implication with the post is that a manly-man and dude with abz and eats meat and rides a Harley won't be cheated on. Now those are my words and not that of the poster. What he/she (I can't remember who posted it) really meant was someone with strong boundaries and willing and able to enforce those boundaries and would not tolerate cheating would be less likely to be cheated on.
> 
> ...


Masculinity looks different for all of us. For me its a man who has integrity, honesty, strong moral values, a strong sense of responsibility, decency and who treats others with respect.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I'm under no illusions and this was investigated and substantiated by objective parties.
> 
> She thought she could push a boundary and ended up getting hers pushed in ways she didn't want.
> 
> ...


Conan, I honestly think that some people have a death wish. They are given so much in life, but do mad things and loose it all.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

If a couple agrees on sexual fidelity, I suppose they could each wear a chastity device and only their partner has the encrypted key/combination. Just be sure that the damn thing actually works!!! LOL









Security flaw left 'smart' chastity sex toy users at risk of permanent lock-in


The bug allowed anyone to permanently lock in the chastity device user's penis.




techcrunch.com


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Bob Ross and Mr. Rogers were both wonderful and gentle men that brought beauty to the world.


True. But they didn’t exactly exude sex appeal or masculinity. Both were quite femme.

I watch some really ****ty reality TV. The ones where women marry for money. I tell my husband, I just couldn't do it. I couldn't get physically excited, even for all the money in the world. He said, for some women, money gets them physically excited. Fair enough.

Maybe your friend's wife just isn't physically attracted to her H and can't pretend anymore. Who knows.

I'm really sorry this happened to your good friend, Conan. I know you'll be a good friend and support to him to help him heal.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> If a couple agrees on sexual fidelity, I suppose they could each wear a chastity device and only their partner has the encrypted key/combination. Just be sure that the damn thing actually works!!! LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LoL!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lucy999 said:


> True. But they didn’t exactly exude sex appeal or masculinity. Both were quite femme.


You're right but can you imagine hurting them?

I'm probably overthinking this.

Obviously cheaters who are married to otherwise wonderful people aren't that cognitive or aware of much outside of their genitals.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I appreciate your sentiments. I'm praying for him. He invested years of his life for this woman and has been the only father his stepson has ever known.
> 
> What the hell is wrong with people?!!!!
> 
> Why?!!!!!?


Why would you do that to your own child as well?? I hope the son and his step dad can still have a relationship after all this.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> You're right but can you imagine hurting them?
> 
> I'm probably overthinking this.
> 
> Obviously cheaters who are married to otherwise wonderful people aren't that cognitive or aware of much outside of their genitals.


No way I could never hurt them. I could never live with the guilt.

But as discussed here on this thread and other places here on the board, cheaters truly are a different breed. I believe that, anyway. Super selfish. I mean, how base can you get, throwing everything away and hurting so many people just to get an O? Talk about selfish and greedy.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

lucy999 said:


> But as discussed here on this thread and other places here on the board, cheaters truly are a different breed. I believe that, anyway. Super selfish. I mean, how base can you get, throwing everything away and hurting so many people just to get an O? Talk about selfish and greedy.


Of all my character flaws, and there are many, selfish and greedy has never been leveled against me in any way. I have spent my entire adult life FTMP living up to my responsibilities to family even when inconvenient to me in time, effort, and money. That is not my self-assessment. It is feedback directly from those involved. 

I get that it's easier to substitute your notion of how a cheater must think than to fully grok the individual complexities of every situation. It's human nature. But you are still wrong. I am not, I suspect, fundamentally different that you are, except that perhaps we have different failure modes. 

If 70% of marriages suffer infidelity, then we are very clearly through monogamy imposing something on the species that is difficult if not outright unnatural. Might as well complain that people with 5 fingers lack the resolve necessary to remove one. It doesn't take pathology to understand why so many fail at it. Breathing, eating, shelter, sex - these needs predate the Western notion of monogamy by millions of years. The effort required to put those desires aside and cling to one and one person only for our sexual satisfaction for decades is going to produce plenty of failure.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Of all my character flaws, and there are many, selfish and greedy has never been leveled against me in any way. I have spent my entire adult life FTMP living up to my responsibilities to family even when inconvenient to me in time, effort, and money. That is not my self-assessment. It is feedback directly from those involved.
> 
> I get that it's easier to substitute your notion of how a cheater must think than to fully grok the individual complexities of every situation. It's human nature. But you are still wrong. I am not, I suspect, fundamentally different that you are, except that perhaps we have different failure modes.
> 
> If 70% of marriages suffer infidelity, then we are very clearly through monogamy imposing something on the species that is difficult if not outright unnatural. Might as well complain that people with 5 fingers lack the resolve necessary to remove one. It doesn't take pathology to understand why so many fail at it. Breathing, eating, shelter, sex - these needs predate the Western notion of monogamy by millions of years. The effort required to put those desires aside and cling to one and one person only for our sexual satisfaction for decades is going to produce plenty of failure.


The wingnut this thread is in regards to is most assuredly greedy and selfish. We had her and those like her in mind while having this conversation.

There have been different ex cheaters on this site that reformed.

At least for a time, all cheaters are selfish and greedy in one aspect at least.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> At least for a time, all cheaters are selfish and greedy in one aspect at least.


I will not quibble with that.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

She cheated on your friend because she felt entitled to. As others have said, she married him for the insurance, not for love. She's a user.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> She cheated on your friend because she felt entitled to. As others have said, she married him for the insurance, not for love. She's a user.


Too bad she didn't use an a hole instead, huh?


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Cletus said:


> Of all my character flaws, and there are many, selfish and greedy has never been leveled against me in any way. I have spent my entire adult life FTMP living up to my responsibilities to family even when inconvenient to me in time, effort, and money. That is not my self-assessment. It is feedback directly from those involved.
> 
> I get that it's easier to substitute your notion of how a cheater must think than to fully grok the individual complexities of every situation. It's human nature. But you are still wrong. I am not, I suspect, fundamentally different that you are, except that perhaps we have different failure modes.
> 
> If 70% of marriages suffer infidelity, then we are very clearly through monogamy imposing something on the species that is difficult if not outright unnatural. Might as well complain that people with 5 fingers lack the resolve necessary to remove one. It doesn't take pathology to understand why so many fail at it. Breathing, eating, shelter, sex - these needs predate the Western notion of monogamy by millions of years. The effort required to put those desires aside and cling to one and one person only for our sexual satisfaction for decades is going to produce plenty of failure.


What would you call cheating, then, if it's not selfish and greedy on the part of the cheater? You don't think those are character traits?

Re: monogamy being unnatural--don't get married or consent to an exclusive, monogamous relationship, then.

And, I'm not "wrong". Neither are you. We just have a difference of opinion. Frankly, I'm surprised you even said that.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> You're right but can you imagine hurting them?
> 
> I'm probably overthinking this.
> 
> Obviously cheaters who are married to otherwise wonderful people aren't that cognitive or aware of much outside of their genitals.


This is just my own humble opinion, but I think a component of these women that marry these beta boys for money and provisioning, on a deep instinctual level do not see them as virile, sexual beings and therefor on a nasal level do not think they will really be all that hurt if if they screw someone else.

I think a part of them really believes that as long as they let these guys rub their feet and kill spiders for them, that they will be ok with it if they screw “real” men. 

And when you see these betas immediately forgive them and beg them not to leave and promise that they will be better husbands and provide even more support - can you really blame them for thinking that???

If your basic animal brain doesn’t view someone as a sexual being, are you really going to think that that person will be all that hurt or enraged? 

Will you believe in your heart that Mr Rodgers will go into a rage and mop the floor with you, toss you out into the street, cut you off financially, try to take your kids away from you and then hunt down your AP and kick his arse? 

A lot of these women simply don’t see beta males as sexual in nature and a part of them simply doesn’t see the harm. 

I doubt if this is on a conscious and rational level. But I’d bet good money that is what is going on way down in their reptilian brain.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Cletus said:


> Of all my character flaws, and there are many, selfish and greedy has never been leveled against me in any way. I have spent my entire adult life FTMP living up to my responsibilities to family even when inconvenient to me in time, effort, and money. That is not my self-assessment. It is feedback directly from those involved.
> 
> I get that it's easier to substitute your notion of how a cheater must think than to fully grok the individual complexities of every situation. It's human nature. But you are still wrong. I am not, I suspect, fundamentally different that you are, except that perhaps we have different failure modes.
> 
> If 70% of marriages suffer infidelity, then we are very clearly through monogamy imposing something on the species that is difficult if not outright unnatural. Might as well complain that people with 5 fingers lack the resolve necessary to remove one. It doesn't take pathology to understand why so many fail at it. Breathing, eating, shelter, sex - these needs predate the Western notion of monogamy by millions of years. The effort required to put those desires aside and cling to one and one person only for our sexual satisfaction for decades is going to produce plenty of failure.


I can’t believe that deceit, betrayal, lies and self serving behavior are natural to human beings but I guess I could be wrong. I could be the outlier. 
As for my unnatural self, I am a believer in fidelity and monogamy, and I feel I have the absolute right to expect someone who is with me under that pretense to actually follow through on those promises, not stab me in the back. I guess I’m just crazy with my overzealous expectations.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

QuietRiot said:


> I can’t believe that deceit, betrayal, lies and self serving behavior are natural to human beings but I guess I could be wrong. I could be the outlier.
> As for my unnatural self, I am a believer in fidelity and monogamy, and I feel I have the absolute right to expect someone who is with me under that pretense to actually follow through on those promises, not stab me in the back. I guess I’m just crazy with my overzealous expectations.


I don't WANT to believe that deceit, betrays. etc. are natural to humans, but they clearly are. Outside a tribal group, these traits can be _survival_ traits. We've evolved to cooperate in our tribal groups and families, but anyone outside that group is fair game. Except, a wider civilization tries to broaden the group to everyone in order to improve life for everyone - but with limited success. Humans are a duplicitous lot, and _almost _always look out for their self-interest _first_.

For you personally, you have the right to expect behaviors that you've mutually agreed upon with someone. If you haven't discussed it and agreed, they may not think the same way as you, and even if you have, they may deviate from their agreements if it is in their self-interest.

I don't "believe" in fidelity or monogamy, but I expect the agreements I've reached with my spouse will be honored - or at least renegotiated before taking any action. If they are not, then there will be consequences which we both know will occur.


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Married but Happy said:


> I don't WANT to believe that deceit, betrays. etc. are natural to humans, but they clearly are. Outside a tribal group, these traits can be _survival_ traits. We've evolved to cooperate in our tribal groups and families, but anyone outside that group is fair game. Except, a wider civilization tries to broaden the group to everyone in order to improve life for everyone - but with limited success. Humans are a duplicitous lot, and _almost _always look out for their self-interest _first_.
> 
> For you personally, you have the right to expect behaviors that you've mutually agreed upon with someone. If you haven't discussed it and agreed, they may not think the same way as you, and even if you have, they may deviate from their agreements if it is in their self-interest.
> 
> I don't "believe" in fidelity or monogamy, but I expect the agreements I've reached with my spouse will be honored - or at least renegotiated before taking any action. If they are not, then there will be consequences which we both know will occur.


Ok, so, 20-25% of the population has decency and respect roughly, I’m going with 75 to 80% of people that gladly screw anyone over for their own selfish benefit, if these numbers are believed... I guess that’s enough of a pool of people for if I eventually decide to trust a man again. I will just have to figure out where these guys are hiding...


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Married but Happy said:


> I don't WANT to believe that deceit, betrays. etc. are natural to humans, but they clearly are.


And this is the Judeo Christian view.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I knew she wasn't that true to start but was convinced she grew up.
> 
> *I don't get why she betrayed him after everything he did for her and her son and the life he provided.*
> 
> I obviously don't know their intimate details but this just seems so ****ty.


Two words: Ingratitude: Entitlement!


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

sokillme said:


> I keep saying it on here over and over. *It's in their nature.* It really is who they are. There are cheaters and non-cheaters. They are like a subspecies of human being. I have come to believe most are just born that way. Now there are people who cheat because they go astray, but cheating is part of who this women is. You can treat them the best that anyone else will treat them, you can take care of their kids. You can do whatever, It doesn't matter because it's who they are.


Odd isn’t it. Treat someone as though they precious and the **** on you. 
Treat like crap and you can’t scrape them off with a spatula!

All depending on their sense of self.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

QuietRiot said:


> Ok, so, 20-25% of the population has decency and respect roughly, I’m going with 75 to 80% of people that gladly screw anyone over for their own selfish benefit, if these numbers are believed... *I guess that’s enough of a pool of people for if I eventually decide to trust a man again.* I will just have to figure out where these guys are hiding...


It is, glad you see that.
Improve your picker and these men of inferior quality will eventually be simply beneath your notice.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> This is just my own humble opinion, but I think a component of these women that marry these beta boys for money and provisioning, on a deep instinctual level do not see them as virile, sexual beings and therefor on a nasal level do not think they will really be all that hurt if if they screw someone else.
> 
> I think a part of them really believes that as long as they let these guys rub their feet and kill spiders for them, that they will be ok with it if they screw “real” men.
> 
> ...


Interesting take.
What of those who aren’t married to a beta boy though?

I haven’t seen it always be the beta boys cheated on. 

My dad sure wasn’t.
His ex cheated. He kicked her out that night right on the heels of the man the door frame took the buckshot for.

Neither was his best friend whose wife cheated and left him, and their kids after 17 years of marriage for a drunk.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

ConanHub said:


> It's ****ing God damned evil that a good man was destroyed because a ****ing whores crotch was empowered by our laws and faulty religious teachings.
> 
> 
> I'm not trying to paint women with a broad brush but I am absolutely painting selfish cheating whores as the God damned monsters they truly are.
> ...


You don't see the big picture. Hypergamy which had been bottled up for the last 1700 years or so has been unleashed. No-fault divorce has no consequences for this behavior and encourages hypergamy. Monogamy is not the default human behavior. In fact monogamy is a social construct of religion and society that was the foundation for a stable society. Religion, especially Roman Catholicism, frowned upon divorce for which there were severe consequences. the ancients had to convince Men to go along with monogamy and promised loyalty in return for providing commitment to one woman. The man provided financial security comfort and protection in return for loyalty. Win - Win. This also pairs up more men. Women control sex and men control commitment. Men don't understand that they wield power with commitment. Especially those guys who are following a 1950s narrative that no longer exists. Except these guys don't know it. these are the Nice Guys who wait patiently for the girls they pine for. For the girls who don't give them the time of day when they are in their 20s. these NGs when they reach their 30s who are stable and doing well in the world are finally given their chance and eventually become the 2nd or 3rd choices for the girls who are good-looking, but getting older, and had their fun . Society still needs these guys to marry up the females though the dice are often loaded. Of course, the NGs don't see it that way. these tend to be the guys who say 7 years later "I worshipped her like a goddess and she cheated on me. How could she do such a thing?" What is happening today is no accident. this is socially engineered as were many transformative events in society that most people think just happened. 

Sounds like your friend may have been too nice, stable, predictable, boring.

Its not so much that she's a selfish ***** but has to do more with female nature and zero consequences for such behavior. there are no societal safeguards. Men are responding to this recent dynamic that you describe by not marrying. marriage doesn't make a lot of sense for a lot of men these days. This trend will continue.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

manowar said:


> You don't see the big picture. Hypergamy which had been bottled up for the last 1700 years or so has been unleashed. No-fault divorce has no consequences for this behavior and encourages hypergamy. Monogamy is not the default human behavior. In fact monogamy is a social construct of religion and society that was the foundation for a stable society. Religion, especially Roman Catholicism, frowned upon divorce for which there were severe consequences. the ancients had to convince Men to go along with monogamy and promised loyalty in return for providing commitment to one woman. The man provided financial security comfort and protection in return for loyalty. Win - Win. This also pairs up more men. Women control sex and men control commitment. Men don't understand that they wield power with commitment. Especially those guys who are following a 1950s narrative that no longer exists. Except these guys don't know it. these are the Nice Guys who wait patiently for the girls they pine for. For the girls who don't give them the time of day when they are in their 20s. these NGs when they reach their 30s who are stable and doing well in the world are finally given their chance and eventually become the 2nd or 3rd choices for the girls who are good-looking, but getting older, and had their fun . Society still needs these guys to marry up the females though the dice are often loaded. Of course, the NGs don't see it that way. these tend to be the guys who say 7 years later "I worshipped her like a goddess and she cheated on me. How could she do such a thing?" What is happening today is no accident. this is socially engineered as were many transformative events in society that most people think just happened.
> 
> Sounds like your friend may have been too nice, stable, predictable, boring.
> 
> Its not so much that she's a selfish *** but has to do more with female nature and zero consequences for such behavior. there are no societal safeguards. Men are responding to this recent dynamic that you describe by not marrying. marriage doesn't make a lot of sense for a lot of men these days. This trend will continue.


Well if this particular lady is hypergamous, she had it made with the man she betrayed. The guy she cheated with is a loser.

I believe trading up is a behavior that can be seen in both genders.

Cheating is a behavior both genders engage in as well but they mostly cheat down and not up.

I can't answer for humanity but I'm very monogamous and many others are as well without difficulty. We actually love it.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

ConanHub said:


> Cheating is a behavior both genders engage in as well but they mostly cheat down and not up.
> 
> I can't answer for humanity but I'm very monogamous and many others are as well without difficulty. We actually love it.


The cheater is generally by definition "cheating down" since they are often doing it with a cheater and almost always the person they are doing it with know they are involved with someone who is already attached.

To me, it just makes sense that being with someone long term you would better learn how to please them and vice versa. You also wouldn't have the relationship churn of finding new people and determining compatibility, etc. Monogamy is potentially more fun and fulfilling and less stressful than other relationship models.


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## Imagirl (Aug 17, 2020)

I haven't read the replies but everything in the original post suggests he's a great guy because he's successful. Money is fine and dandy but they're are things that I want more. Maybe he doesn't give her the "more".


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

manowar said:


> Monogamy is not the default human behavior.


There’s actually good reason to believe that monogamy is a natural human behavior and was already present in primitive tribes, which then became clans, which then became larger societies as the Neolithic era instituted farming.

Monogamy became “institutionalized” as early as 10,000 years ago in early villages and towns but had been present before that. The ceremonial or ritual aspect of “sealing the deal” was probably a way of combatting the advent of STDs which became more prevalent as societies grew larger and more complex. Incidentally the lack of STDs in smaller tribes would at least tend to indicate monogamy.

The idea that monogamy is some fairly recent invention of the Roman Catholic Church in the West less than 2,000 years old just doesn’t hold up. But it’s likely an outgrowth of Rousseau’s Enlightenment era attempts at anthropology in which he posited ancient man was a good pure being in the state of nature and that civilization had corrupted everything.

CS Lewis did a famous survey of objective morality in human cultures past and present, dating back at least 5,000 years (as far back as humans actually recorded things) across the globe. He called this “the Tao” and found striking recurrences of the same things: piety, fidelity, filial loyalty, honor, chastity and so on. Things like adultery received almost universal condemnation. Contra Rousseau.

Meta studies of hunter gatherer societies show monogamy is the default rather than the exception at a rate of 80 percent or greater. Aboriginal polygamy is not the norm.

Humans have a high propensity for sexual jealousy, also suggesting a strong tendency toward monogamy.

We can also use pure logic as a discernment tool: there’s the toxic impact of adultery itself on social capital. If lack of sexual fidelity were the norm rather than the toxic abnormal it is, then honesty and justice would cease to exist. No one could be trusted at the most basic level. Chaos would ensue.

Now maybe we are headed for this breaking point in our own society but like many stupid experiments our current society seems intent on trying, it will be a first in recorded human history.

Interestingly we have few examples of pure chaos in human history (perhaps there’s an ancient human echo memory in Biblical warnings about such dysfunctional societies before the Flood, for example) but we certainly know we have a revulsion to this, again suggesting a strong preference for monogamy.

Lastly it doesn’t seem much of a stretch to expect higher order beings — who posses abilities such as meta cognition and executive functions in the frontal lobes, to say nothing of neuroplasticity — to act with more refinement than base mindless monkeys with peanuts for brains.

Adultery has always been a human problem, but that’s also true of thievery and murder. They are problems because they are dysfunctional acts.

No one ever suggests random, constant murder is the natural state of humans, for example. I suppose Hobbes did, but that’s for another bedtime story.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Damn thorough description. 

Kudos!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Imagirl said:


> I haven't read the replies but everything in the original post suggests he's a great guy because he's successful. Money is fine and dandy but they're are things that I want more. Maybe he doesn't give her the "more".


If he was just well off, he wouldn't be my friend. He is an amazing and caring human being. Very well spoken and thoughtful and considerate.

He is around 6'1" or 2" and while he isn't the prettiest man, he has 2 older daughters from a previous marriage that are even taller than him and gorgeous so he did not have problems bedding women in the past.

There can be a lot of speculation about unknowns but what is known is that he is a great friend and someone I admire and she tried to hit on me in front of all our friends and even my wife.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I cant agree that monogamy is unnatural. Its outright selfishness that leads to people cheating, putting themelves and what THEY want before their spouse, their childen, their wider family and their friends. Its all about me me me. For many of us, monogamy is very natural.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Thumos said:


> There’s actually good reason to believe that monogamy is a natural human behavior and was already present in primitive tribes, which then became clans, which then became larger societies as the Neolithic era instituted farming.


Monoga-mish and serial monogamy may well be "naturally" human, more or less. Strict decades long monogomy is quite clearly more difficult. We don't need a long treatise on the philosophy of it, we have empirical data.



> We can also use pure logic as a discernment tool: there’s the toxic impact of adultery itself on social capital. If lack of sexual fidelity were the norm rather than the toxic abnormal it is, then honesty and justice would cease to exist. No one could be trusted at the most basic level. Chaos would ensue.


Toxic it may be, but if more than half of all long term marriages suffer from it, then abnormal? Demonstrably not, and society hasn't collapsed around us.

I'm not comfortable playing apologist for non-monogamy, because that is not my intent. But most of your argument relies on monogamy being something well outside of the norm. I don't think that suggestion holds much water. Even if non-monogamy isn't or may not ever become "the norm", it is widespread and far too common to be considered an aberration.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Cletus said:


> Demonstrably not, and society hasn't collapsed around us.


Are you sure about that? Feels a bit like whistling past the graveyard.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Thumos said:


> Are you sure about that? Feels a bit like whistling past the graveyard.


No more so than anyone without a crystal ball. But confident enough that every generation's longing for the good ol' days is not de facto evidence of societal collapse.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Cletus said:


> Even if non-monogamy isn't or may not ever become "the norm", it is widespread and far too common to be considered an aberration.


Murder is pretty widespread too.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

So the reality is this -- your friend marriage someone who had this character flaw that made her capable of cheating.
Doesn't matter if HE is good. This is entirely on HER. 
MANY people are their own worst enemies -- the do things that are very destructive to their own lives, but very often don't see that, or are not willing to own up to that.
WHY do people sabotage their own life (and NOT just by cheating) --- no idea -- maybe they think deep down that they don't deserve good things in their life?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

How'd this get to murder?

😂😂👍👍


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Thumos said:


> Murder is pretty widespread too.


Murder is at least 10,000 times less widespread than infidelity and ends a life. That equivocation falls on its face in so many ways it's hard to believe you would attempt it.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

*Infidelity *and *adultery *destroys *families*!
Families are one of the main pillars of Society!
Society is one of the main pillars of civilization!

So yes, infidelity wrecks civilization!

We are going down the bell curve in high speed!
It will take a couple of decades to see the affect and the disaster unfold!
We already witnessing the signs now!
kiss our western civilization goodbye!


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

It wasn’t equivocation - just acknowledging that both have been recognized as among the worst transgressions among humans for many millennia.

And the point was to say that because a thing is “widespread” thru human history tells us almost nothing about whether it is transgressive or harmful. Using “widespread” as the criterion for the acceptance of something almost gets us to a will to power ethic — and you don’t seem like that kind of person at all.

in fact when a thing considered so transgressive and toxic becomes more widespread, one might almost be able to consider it a cancer that has metastasized.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> How'd this get to murder?
> 
> 😂😂👍👍


Murder is bad behavior and so is infidelity.

I don't find monogamy any more unnatural than not murdering people.

I see evidence of a propensity to be tempted towards bad behavior in people but not that it's natural.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Murder is at least 10,000 times less widespread than infidelity and ends a life. That equivocation falls on its face in so many ways it's hard to believe you would attempt it.


Criminal violence then. Extremely widespread and many could be classified as murder attempts so the inclination is there.

The concept is accurate. Criminal violence is bad behavior and so is infidelity.


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## Thumos (Jul 21, 2020)

Cletus said:


> Strict decades long monogomy is quite clearly more difficult.


I don’t disagree.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> The concept is accurate. Criminal violence is bad behavior and so is infidelity.


Which is why I absolutely ****ing hate having these conversations.

Because I am not saying that infidelity is not bad behavior. Fidelity is like eating your vegetables. Everyone universally agrees that it's a good idea. Most everyone knows that there are bad consequences for not doing it, even if those consequences are not immediately fatal or as bad as many other things you could do.

But give people a way around eating their vegetables, and they will find a way. Not every time, not every person, and not without lots of exceptions, but in sufficient number to make it clear that it is not unusual. I am arguing not from the position of how I would like the world to be, which is the same as you, but how the world really IS. 

If half the population is wired for permanent lifelong monogamy, and the other half is not, then there is no such thing as a universal argument from human nature, other than "it depends on the human".


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Which is why I absolutely ****ing hate having these conversations.
> 
> Because I am not saying that infidelity is not bad behavior. Fidelity is like eating your vegetables. Everyone universally agrees that it's a good idea. Most everyone knows that there are bad consequences for not doing it, even if those consequences are not immediately fatal or as bad as many other things you could do.
> 
> ...


It is worth a conversation when claims are made that monogamy isn't natural.

I actually never start these conversations but I'm not going to refrain from comments when someone starts saying monogamy is unnatural.

Choices are natural and we all make bad ones at times.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> It is worth a conversation when claims are made that monogamy isn't natural.
> 
> I actually never start these conversations but I'm not going to refrain from comments when someone starts saying monogamy is unnatural.
> 
> Choices are natural and we all make bad ones at times.


Then I'm sorry, we'll just have to disagree. Something that at least half the population cannot manage to do doesn't fit my definition of natural for the species.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Which is why I absolutely ****ing hate having these conversations.


You have my official permission to refrain from participating in conversations which you ****ing hate. 

Ima thinking you're feeling your character is under attack - it isn't.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Then I'm sorry, we'll just have to disagree. Something that at least half the population cannot manage to do doesn't fit my definition of natural for the species.


We might not disagree. I see the temptation to make bad choices as very widespread. I don't argue for what is natural or ingrained at all.

I see choices being made, both bad and good, as very natural and those choices are made about everything, not just fidelity.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Blondilocks said:


> You have my official permission to refrain from participating in conversations which you ****ing hate.
> 
> Ima thinking you're feeling your character is under attack - it isn't.


No, I don't think that necessarily. I just usually have a very empirical view of the world, and infidelity is one of those places where our behavior seems to be in huge conflict with our morality. Arguing from that position always makes it sound like you're an apologist for infidelity, which I am not. But this topic gets some folks hackles up so hard that it just feels nuts to discuss rationally.

I don't personally know of anyone who ever entered a marriage with the intent to cheat, but it happens so much that we should figure out how to either make it more avoidable or get our expectations better in line with reality. I cannot decide if this is an epidemic like obesity, that we should really try to reign in because of all the bad consequences, or if we would be better off coming up with more socially acceptable alternatives to strict monogamy. Gay marriage was once considered an abomination, too, but we seem to have largely shifted as a society on that one.

As an example, you probably know that I am a huge proponent of sex before marriage as a necessary but insufficient test of sexual compatibility. The prohibition against this by some of the same loudest voices on infidelity is incongruous. 

More body acceptance or more time in the gym?

Edit: Yes, I have to admit I get sore about reducing a person's entire life experience and worth down to their worst moment. Not just for selfish reasons, but because I am old enough to have known many good people stumble in lots of ways that did not make them bad or selfish or unworthy. Just human.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Cletus said:


> *A)* I don't personally know of anyone who ever entered a marriage with the intent to cheat, but it happens so much that we should figure out how to either make it more avoidable or get our expectations better in line with reality. *B)* I cannot decide if this is an epidemic like obesity, that we should really try to reign in because of all the bad consequences, or if we would be better off coming up with more socially acceptable alternatives to strict monogamy.
> 
> Edit: *C)* Yes, I have to admit I get sore about reducing a person's entire life experience and worth down to their worst moment. Not just for selfish reasons, but because I am old enough to have known many good people stumble in lots of ways that did not make them bad or selfish or unworthy. Just human.


A) I don't know anyone like this either. In the early stages of a relationship, with the hormonal amplification of bonding, most people cannot imagine wanting anyone else for the rest of their lives. Then these hormones fade away, reality sets in, and while love may have (should have!) become the dominant emotion for the relationship, it does not negate the lack of excitement you felt earlier. Many people want to recapture that, or feel a lack of intimacy with their partner through no fault of their own. It's far easier to cheat to regain these feelings than it is to leave with all the investment made so far with a partner you probably still love (in most cases). Most get away with it, too. And most cannot even _ask_ about opening the relationship without destroying it - we're too brainwashed into thinking monogamy is the only acceptable relationship style. We also see from the many posts here that people who are lacking sex and/or intimacy in their otherwise good relationship never find a good solution.

B) It's not an epidemic, but it's probably a little more prevalent now than in the past because it is SO much easier to find someone who also wants that same excitement, and much easier to hide it. IMO, there are alternatives to monogamy that many people should consider, and would if they weren't so indoctrinated by society into a monogamous worldview that often does not work in practice. Absolutely there are people for whom monogamy works well and for them it is natural and healthy - but other ways are also natural and healthy, just demonized by society. It's hard to be different when everyone else wants you to fit into the same mold as them. There is more and more information and discussion of non-monogamy these days, and I think that is a healthy trend - but it's in its infancy. Monogamish is a recent term that reflects a transitional form of relationship - but it's still demonized by most people and outright rejected.

C) I agree. Good people sometimes do bad things, but that should not label them for their whole life, unless they keep on doing those bad things.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

Cletus said:


> If half the population is wired for permanent lifelong monogamy, and the other half is not, then there is no such thing as a universal argument from human nature, other than "it depends on the human".


Someone who denies natures, is making a materialist statement. Each individual is simply a collection of atoms and is unique and does its own thing. The implication is this life is all there is. There is no such thing as human nature. This is the scientific position that began with Descartes and newtonian physics mid 1600s. I counter that with we have natures - we are a compound of form (souls) and matter. This is an Aristotelian argument. Our form determines what we are. it gives us our humaness. By nature we are two legged rational animals. A dog's form is that of dogness. those qualities that make it a dog.

if your statement is true then monogamy can't be our default position . the argument for human nature however can still be made (against monogamy) based on various societal factors. people are incentivized to check their desires to wander.. A woman may not love her husband but stays monogamous to maintain her lifestyle. If she leaves she gets nothing. She wants another guy but wont act on it. the risks of getting caught having sex outwiegh the affair. The husband could release her from the marriage or kill her (thats the power that the pater familias had in ancient Rome). many instances were unfair for the woman due to her having a wretched husband. I get it. No fault divorce however encourages infidelity. No penalty for infidelity. take 1/2 the assets no questions asked. Im for monogamy btw. I just don't believe that it is wired into us. The fall of monogamy is the fall of the nueclar family which will have dire consequenses upon the stability of society. No question about it.

The point i made earlier is not that the RC Church invented monogamy but rather that the church and other factors kept female hypergamy in check. Im only talking about the female side of the equation here. I concede that men are rotten too.. The consequences of the past 50 years uncorked that bottle and is one of the reasons for increased infidelity. Woman can act on their emotions, desires, feelings in the modern world. part of her nature is being hypergamous (varying degrees). In a man--- a woman seeks looks, status and money. Men really don't give a crap about status. Money could sway a man, but for the most part men are focused on looks. A beautiful woman is just damn lucky. I admit that monogamy existed in ancient and pre-historic societies but those societies were structured (institutionalized) for the greatest stabilty. Only through monogamy is that achieved. What Im saying is that human beings have a tendency for a wayward eye. Only a tendency. Not a compulsion like a drug addict. That's our nature. Most married people check that tendency in our wiring themselves. Many desire monogamy outright because its a good way to live. its morally healthy. I personally endorse it. So checking that tendency isnt difficult for many. Our Intellect supercedes the Will which is a Thomist [Thomas Aquinas] view. We are rational beings not driven by our instincts like the beasts. Aquinas was an Aristotelian. So I say we have form, which is another word for souls, which gives us our nature. Our souls are immaterial. The implication being there may be something beyond this life.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Damn. That's good.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

red oak said:


> Interesting take.
> What of those who aren’t married to a beta boy though?
> 
> I haven’t seen it always be the beta boys cheated on.
> ...


Alphas get cheated on as well.

But they don’t get cheated on twice by the same woman.


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Cletus said:


> I don't personally know of anyone who ever entered a marriage with the intent to cheat, but it happens so much that we should figure out how to either make it more avoidable or get our expectations better in line with reality.


I have an uncle that caught one of his groomsmen having sex with his first wife at the party they threw the night of their wedding. That's probably close enough.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Hiner112 said:


> I have an uncle that caught one of his groomsmen having sex with his first wife at the party they threw the night of their wedding. That's probably close enough.


You can not just put that out there and not give the follow-up. lol What did he do?


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## Hiner112 (Nov 17, 2019)

Blondilocks said:


> You can not just put that out there and not give the follow-up. lol What did he do?


The story I got was that after they had been partying for a while the night of the wedding he was wondering around the house they were at looking for her and found them in one of the bedrooms. He wanted to kill her (or at least beat her up) then and there. My dad (his brother) and a couple friends held him back and made sure he didn't do anything he was going to regret later. I don't know for certain that some violence didn't happen but there was no permanent damage and no one was arrested. The marriage was annulled within a couple weeks. This happened not long after they had graduated high school and years before I was born. I think I was in high school when he was getting married to his current wife and I said something about it being his second marriage (he'd had one "real" marriage since then) and was informed that it was actually his third. Later on, once my dad had a couple drinks, he told me at least this much of the story.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

manowar said:


> Our souls are immaterial.


If souls are immaterial, then a whole lot of people are worried about heaven and hell for nothing.

Whether monogamy goes against human nature is actually irrelevant in a traditional marriage. People exchange those traditional vows which specifically preclude 'sharing the wealth'. When one decides they no longer want to honor their vows, all they have to do is be honorable and inform their partner they are rescinding their promises. They can take it up with God later.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> This thread has been harsh and even a bit uncomfortable for me to read at times.
> 
> But I will concede that most people do not cheat most of the time.
> 
> ...


Yes
Yes
Yes
and 
Yes
Unless #3 you are divorcing for their sexual immoral behavior(Biblical grounds) and you give them divorce papers then i believe you are free to proceed. This waiting period is bureaucratic govt. BS.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Cletus said:


> Then I'm sorry, we'll just have to disagree. Something that at least half the population cannot manage to do doesn't fit my definition of natural for the species.


I'd say it's natural to have desire, desire for monogamy, polygamy, whatever, who cares, it's up to the individuals. It's also natural to have dipsh-ts who fk it up too.
I'd say the majority of people are the latter, doesn't mean the former isn't natural due to the choices of the latter.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

@QuietRiot
Find one who has been cheated on and start from there. It may take a little time to feel trust on both sides but when it passes and you know you can trust them it is a weight lifted. 

My wife, then GF, came home one day pissed as a neighbor(old classmate of mine) tried to get her to go out with him knowing she was with me. She detests cheaters as her 1st hubby was a serial cheater and she divorced him after catching him for 3rd time in 10 yrs.

We are very protective of our marriage and actively guarding it from outside influences. She is unxomfortable with men givi g her compliments that can be any way flirty, likewise i had a female deputy compliment my me on something i was wearing as i was leaving the SO one day. Responded thanks and walked out the door, did not realize until i got in the truck that she was being forward and flirting by the tone in the way she complimented me. 

If i was single i may have picked up on it sooner, but it made me very uncomfortable at the time. Now if i get complimented i will say something like,"Yeah my wife bought it for me for our anniversary with a big smile on my face.

She was mateguarding me and she didn't even know. If i am around other women for any time i bring up something wonderful that wife did or she is so great. My friends and co-workers know i am very married.


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> He is too nice and has too big a heart obviously.
> 
> I don't get why women hurt men like this.
> 
> ...


Outside of reproduction I can't see why any man would even risk getting married these days.



Diana7 said:


> Everyone has a different idea of what makes a man masculine.


I see your point but being passive and a doormat have never been seen as masculine traits and for good reason.



Married but Happy said:


> A) I don't know anyone like this either. In the early stages of a relationship, with the hormonal amplification of bonding, most people cannot imagine wanting anyone else for the rest of their lives. Then these hormones fade away, reality sets in, and while love may have (should have!) become the dominant emotion for the relationship, it does not negate the lack of excitement you felt earlier. Many people want to recapture that, or feel a lack of intimacy with their partner through no fault of their own. It's far easier to cheat to regain these feelings than it is to leave with all the investment made so far with a partner you probably still love (in most cases). Most get away with it, too. And most cannot even _ask_ about opening the relationship without destroying it - we're too brainwashed into thinking monogamy is the only acceptable relationship style. We also see from the many posts here that people who are lacking sex and/or intimacy in their otherwise good relationship never find a good solution.
> 
> B) It's not an epidemic, but it's probably a little more prevalent now than in the past because it is SO much easier to find someone who also wants that same excitement, and much easier to hide it. IMO, there are alternatives to monogamy that many people should consider, and would if they weren't so indoctrinated by society into a monogamous worldview that often does not work in practice. Absolutely there are people for whom monogamy works well and for them it is natural and healthy - but other ways are also natural and healthy, just demonized by society. It's hard to be different when everyone else wants you to fit into the same mold as them. There is more and more information and discussion of non-monogamy these days, and I think that is a healthy trend - but it's in its infancy. Monogamish is a recent term that reflects a transitional form of relationship - but it's still demonized by most people and outright rejected.
> 
> C) I agree. Good people sometimes do bad things, but that should not label them for their whole life, unless they keep on doing those bad things.


Once someone crosses that line once it's easier to justify crossing that line again. So I wouldn't ever put my money on trusting someone who could do something like that even once. Anyone who ****s around behind their spouse's back and can look them in the eye all day every day like they're innocent doesn't love their spouse, period.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> Absolutely. My mum had a terrible childhood. Her dad died when she was 2 due to the damage mustard gas had on his lungs in WW1. Her mum was too poor to care for 5 small girls. Mum spent much of her childhood in a very strict unloving orphanage where they basically threw you out at age 16. Yet she had such amazing integrity, strong moral values, honesty and decency, and only ever had sex with my dad who she adored. I think that putting cheating down to a bad upbringing is a cop out. Its more due to having no integrity or strength of character.


Absolutely agree, it all depends on how one responds to such awful life circumstances


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