# He forgave me??!



## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

For Background's sake, from a previous post.



> I got involved with a man online. I honestly cannot remember what made me like him, as looking back, he was physically and emotionally repulsive. He was an abusive monster who had the face of an evil garden gnome. At the time, the butterflies for my husband were fading for the first time, and so I thought I was falling out of love. The OM offered me a new life and a place to stay. He said he was very rich, but in hindsight I am sure he was lying. The relationship lasted for a month, and I was kicking and screaming the entire way. I didn't want to be in the relationship, but at the same time I was convinced it was over with my husband and, being that I am mentally ill, disabled, and generally incapable of living on my own, I was loath to give up my safety net.
> 
> The whole thing was shameful and terrible. At one point I was convinced that if I moved in with him, he was going to kill me or use me as a sex slave, or both. He had threatened me with an ultimatum and said either I get on a plane NOW and move in with him or terrible things would happen to me. My plan was to get on the plane and if he killed me, then I deserved it for cheating. My mother found out two days before I was to get in the plane, and took me to the mental hospital. It took me MONTHS to realize he was abusive and that being afraid of the OM was not normal. It took me months after that to realize that the entire time at any point I could have refused to do the things the OM demanded of me. I really felt like I had no choice, and it fills me with shame to realize I could have said no, and deplorably chose not to.
> 
> I confessed to my husband in the hospital. I kept a diary while I was in the hospital, and I told him of the affair and let him read my diary. It was the only time I'd ever seen him cry. He refused to sleep in our empty apartment the entire time I was in the hospital. It is to my further shame that he had to handle his recovery mostly on his own. I had been diagnosed with cptsd and abandonment issues, and was working through trying to process what I had done and why. I was in the hospital's day program for the severely disturbed for months. I will forever regret not being there for my husband during the first year post-A. I want to make it up to him as much as I can for the rest of forever with tender, loving gestures.



We were in the middle of an empty aisle at Target a few minutes ago and I suddenly had a flashback to my A, so I did what I always do when that happens and went over to my husband and put my arms around him and said, "I'm sorry if I say this too much. If you want me to mention it less, just let me know, because I don't want to upset you with painful memories, but... I'm sorry... I'm sorry for..." Here I struggled to verbalize my wrongdoing. When I apologize for it I have trouble coming out and saying that I cheated on him, so often I just apologize for "what happened in 2014" and I know perfectly well that that isn't good enough. I have to say it. 

"I'm so sorry for being unfaithful to you in 2014."

He replied, "it's okay"

I removed my face from his shoulder and said, "No, no its not. It's not okay. It devastates me that I could have hurt you that way, that I DID hurt you, and I'm so, so sorry. I love you so much and I will never hurt you like that again."

He said, "it's okay. I forgive you."

I said, "Really? Thank you so much. I will spend the rest of my life making it up to you, if that's even possible."

And to my absolute shock, he said, "You've already more than made up for it"

I couldn't thank him enough. Holy gods how it that even possible?! To MORE THAN make up for infidelity?!! I'm speechless. Of course, I'll continue trying to earn his love and be the woman he deserves regardless of whether he forgives me or not, because he deserves that always. But holy cow!!


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Forgive yourself... it's time.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I was on SurvivingInfidelity for a month or two this year, before they banned me. In general, it was thought that I was not remorseful enough. I must have either changed a lot since then, or the atmosphere on TAM is drastically different (I suspect the latter) because the first comment here was "Forgive yourself". I am unsure whether or not I deserve to forgive myself. Isn't the whole point behind infidelity recovery that you (as a Wayward) irreversibly damaged your spouse and should therefore be prepared to care for him physically, emotionally, and psychologically for, bare minimum, 2-5 years? I got the general impression that while Waywards should never allow feelings of shame to prevent them from doing anything the Betrayed Spouse needs you to do to facilitate their healing, to relinquish that shame completely makes the Wayward less "safe" for their spouse.

Still, I think, maybe, forgiving myself might be what my BH wants me to do. I've always appeared to trigger harder than he has when I see something that reminds me of the OM. (like the type of religious jewelry he wore, or seeing someone who looks like him, or hearing certain phrases that he used to say) I once had a nightmare- last year or so- that I woke up in mine and my husband's bed, but I rolled over to see HIM there!! I woke up screaming and in total panic. Yet it would be unthinkably insensitive to assume I was the more damaged party of the two of us, because whether I realized it or not, I made a choice. My BH did not invite this into our lives. I did. That's still so freaking painful for me to confront.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Just my 2cents worth, but by not forgiving yourself, you are doing damage to your marriage. You keep bringing up a painful memory to your husband. By not forgiving yourself, you keep wallowing in the quagmire you have created, and it keeps you from moving forward to a better life, and a stronger marriage.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*In your case, there are at least six entities from which you need to seek forgiveness from for an act of marital faithlessness and infidelity: 

(1) Your husband, who felt and experienced the pangs of marital betrayal and an overt violation of the mutual wedding vows that you pledged to him 

(2) provided that you have them, your children 

(3) your families, who may have become aware of all of your insipid exploits 

(4) your close friends, and for obviously the very same reasons!

(5) Yourself, because if you fail to forgive yourself, then how can anyone else extend that forgiveness to you? 

(6) But even more importantly, to God Himself! And while He may be the easier there is to seek forgiveness from, without it, you may never learn how to seek the forgiveness of any of the others, including yourself!

But whatever you do or however you handle it, "less is more" and sincerity and contrition is better shown through heartfelt actions moreso than the verbose, perhaps insecure, continuance of sheer words! *


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Thound said:


> Just my 2cents worth, but by not forgiving yourself, you are doing damage to your marriage. You keep bringing up a painful memory to your husband. By not forgiving yourself, you keep wallowing in the quagmire you have created, and it keeps you from moving forward to a better life, and a stronger marriage.


It may also have incited premature forgiveness. I'd watch his actions.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

I would say that your spontaneous apology was very meaningful to your husband. Too often, apologies are given after the wronged party demands them. These apologies are not worth as much. I think he probably appreciated it more than you know, and downplayed its significance. I think you should do this every so often for the rest of your life. It can't hurt.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I was on SurvivingInfidelity for a month or two this year, before they banned me. In general, it was thought that I was not remorseful enough. I must have either changed a lot since then, or the atmosphere on TAM is drastically different (I suspect the latter) because the first comment here was "Forgive yourself". I am unsure whether or not I deserve to forgive myself. Isn't the whole point behind infidelity recovery that you (as a Wayward) irreversibly damaged your spouse and should therefore be prepared to care for him physically, emotionally, and psychologically for, bare minimum, 2-5 years? I got the general impression that while Waywards should never allow feelings of shame to prevent them from doing anything the Betrayed Spouse needs you to do to facilitate their healing, to relinquish that shame completely makes the Wayward less "safe" for their spouse.
> 
> Still, I think, maybe, forgiving myself might be what my BH wants me to do. I've always appeared to trigger harder than he has when I see something that reminds me of the OM. (like the type of religious jewelry he wore, or seeing someone who looks like him, or hearing certain phrases that he used to say) I once had a nightmare- last year or so- that I woke up in mine and my husband's bed, but I rolled over to see HIM there!! I woke up screaming and in total panic. Yet it would be unthinkably insensitive to assume I was the more damaged party of the two of us, because whether I realized it or not, I made a choice. My BH did not invite this into our lives. I did. That's still so freaking painful for me to confront.


Ella, you are a kind soul...

We are all different and timeframes are an average experience based on many things, it's not a clinical cookie-cutter.

For every acceptance your husband has found forgiveness, he was ready... I am sure nobody scheduled this for him, it came when it did for the reasons I would gather simply because he was ready for it, he had come to his peace.

By what you share, I believe he also wants this for you... you are indeed fortunate. 

He did not invite this into his life, but he is willing to work with it... give him the faith and confidence he knows and accepts what he is doing as you work to strengthen your relationship. We all have weaknesses, your husband too, but his dedication to you is not one of them so have faith in yourself that you are seen as you are, valuable in your dedication to never make those same mistakes again... I am certain your husband sees that in you or he would probably not be with you today.

When you begin to feel that calm drift away, immediately stop and take a long, deep breath and release it slowly acknowledging the value of every moment you have spent loving your husband, then take one more deep breath and release it slowly acknowledging the love your husband has shown you... repeat until the calm has enveloped you with the feelings you know and trust.

This will help you build the self-forgiveness you need...


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Ella, you are a kind soul...
> 
> 
> When you begin to feel that calm drift away, immediately stop and take a long, deep breath and release it slowly acknowledging the value of every moment you have spent loving your husband, then take one more deep breath and release it slowly acknowledging the love your husband has shown you... repeat until the calm has enveloped you with the feelings you know and trust.
> ...


Thank you for the compliment and the advice. I really appreciate it, and what a beautiful mental picture it paints!


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

If I were you I would not elaborate, just say, "I love you!"


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

VeryHurt said:


> If I were you I would not elaborate, just say, "I love you!"


Well, I say that at every possible opportunity, dozens of times a day.

"I love your smile"
"I love the love in your eyes when you look at me"
"I love your sweetness."
"I love how dedicated you are in your work"
"I'm so proud to be married to someone as intelligent and capable as you!"
"I love everything you are"

After 7 years of perpetual I love yous, I've got to be specific so they don't grow stale, y'know?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Have you two ever discussed the falling out of love feelings that you were having?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> Have you two ever discussed the falling out of love feelings that you were having?


Yes, many times. As it turns out, those feelings fading are very natural. It's what happens when you live with somebody for a couple years and get used to life with them. You start to take them for granted if you don't make an effort to appreciate them and to demonstrate that appreciation in tangible and quantifiable ways. In other words, never stop wooing them. Never stop complimenting them, making an effort to impress them, doing things to make their life easier, etc. The feelings will come flooding back, and they have. And then they faded again. And then we brought them back. So on and so forth.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

While my wife has not had an affair..she does done some pretty horrible things in our past (as have i). Typically financial stuff....lending HUGE amounts of money to a couple of her relatives, after we had disscussed, and i thought, decided not to do so.

She continued to beat herself up for years after i forgave her. The problem became, seeing her in this pain, drove me nuts. When she hurts, i hurt. 

Your husband has done his part in forgivig you...your part is accepting it...


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Work on living your love for him. Words don't mean much. You lied and snuck around for a long time, so now your words don't hold much water. As long as he sees you working on yourself, owning your sh!t, being transparent, being the best mom you can be then...then...he will start to feel safe around you. 

And have the courage to be vulnerable. When you have the courage to hand your fears and desires to him, he will see that you want him to take them and do what he needs to do to meet your needs. It's not rocket science. The biggest reason you cheated was you no longer opened up your vulnerability to him. He didn't know what he needed to do to make you happy, and vice versa.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Yes, many times. As it turns out, those feelings fading are very natural. It's what happens when you live with somebody for a couple years and get used to life with them. You start to take them for granted if you don't make an effort to appreciate them and to demonstrate that appreciation in tangible and quantifiable ways. In other words, never stop wooing them. Never stop complimenting them, making an effort to impress them, doing things to make their life easier, etc. The feelings will come flooding back, and they have. And then they faded again. And then we brought them back. So on and so forth.


That is a normal marriage. Problem is you got impatient and made the worst decision you could. That is a lack of proper coping mechanisms. A good marriage counselor can help you learn these.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> Work on living your love for him. Words don't mean much. You lied and snuck around for a long time, so now your words don't hold much water. As long as he sees you working on yourself, owning your sh!t, being transparent, being the best mom you can be then...then...he will start to feel safe around you.
> 
> And have the courage to be vulnerable. When you have the courage to hand your fears and desires to him, he will see that you want him to take them and do what he needs to do to meet your needs. It's not rocket science. The biggest reason you cheated was you no longer opened up your vulnerability to him. He didn't know what he needed to do to make you happy, and vice versa.


We don't have kids but I do my best in all the other areas. We discuss EVERYTHING, I'm in therapy and on medication, he knows of ALL my online friends and what I do with my time, etc.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> We don't have kids but I do my best in all the other areas. We discuss EVERYTHING, I'm in therapy and on medication, he knows of ALL my online friends and what I do with my time, etc.


That's a good start. But you need to be completely open and honest in everything...everything. If he's not meeting your emotional needs, you sit him down and tell him exactly...to the nugget...what you need him to do. If you need him to do something sexually...you tell him exactly what you need him to do. And he needs to do the same. Every day. Painful, raw honesty is the only thing that will save your marriage. Half measures are not going to cut it anymore. 

That is how you don't allow rug sweeping. You and hubby need to be spending two hours of alone time every day, talking, talking talking. Crying, raging, living, loving and being a couple again.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> That is a normal marriage. Problem is you got impatient and made the worst decision you could. That is a lack of proper coping mechanisms. A good marriage counselor can help you learn these.


I agree that I had no coping mechanisms and I am in therapy. However, I would not say my A was born out of impatience. I got married at 18, and he was the longest relationship I'd ever had. I literally had NO IDEA that was what happened in a normal marriage. I thought I must have gotten married to the wrong person if the love wasn't going to stick around by itself forever. I thought my parents would never support me if I decided to get divorced. I handled myself completely wrong though, prioritizing my own safety and security above his. I destroyed his life because I wanted to make sure I had a backup man to live with before I announced it was over. I didn't want to have to spend even one day single and looking. I wanted to be certain I would be financially safe before I moved on. In short, I was supremely selfish and short-sighted. Confused and scared, but overall still very selfish. I had no concept of the idea that marriage takes effort and sometimes pain and vulnerability. I had no concept of the idea that maybe, just maybe, I was destroying his whole psyche by deciding, by myself, without his input, that the marriage was over and I had to find a new man to live with.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> That's a good start. But you need to be completely open and honest in everything...everything. If he's not meeting your emotional needs, you sit him down and tell him exactly...to the nugget...what you need him to do. If you need him to do something sexually...you tell him exactly what you need him to do. And he needs to do the same. Every day. Painful, raw honesty is the only thing that will save your marriage. Half measures are not going to cut it anymore.
> .
> That is how you don't allow rug sweeping. You and hubby need to be spending two hours of alone time every day, talking, talking talking. Crying, raging, living, loving and being a couple again.


I do that. All the time. I encourage him to do it, too. We play a "game" called The And where we ask each other difficult questions, questions like "What need of yours have I not met?" and, "When was the last time you seriously considered divorcing me? Why?" and "What do I do that hurts you?" and, "When you are stressed or upset, do you want to go to me? Why or why not?" etc. He's not much of a talker, but I find the game helps him flip that switch and put him in that "spill everything" mindset.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You have a good chance at making it. Keep up the good work.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think you are going to be fine, Ella. 

Why did you get married so young?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> I think you are going to be fine, Ella.
> 
> Why did you get married so young?


First and foremost because I fell in love, but there was always this undertone of "Find someone to look after you when we're too old" from my parents. I could tell they were really grateful I had found someone willing to provide for me and take care of me. I have cerebral palsy and a host of psychological issues to boot, so I always knew, even from the time I was very small, that living on my own in the world just wasn't a realistic option.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

That you have a loving husband you trust is a positive statement... living with a neurological disorder must be challenging, that is doesn't define you is a powerful statement of confidence. 

We all need to rely on another in this life, that we find someone to trust and share our vulnerabilities with is so important in being, and being fulfilled. When we drop our walls and open our hearts, life delivers many wonderful surprises.

Firsts and foremost, keep the love alive... this is definition worth having.

Warmth and kind thoughts to you and your husband, may calm continue to find you and keep your inner peace mindful for every day you openly share that love with him...


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## VeryHurt (Mar 11, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Well, I say that at every possible opportunity, dozens of times a day.
> 
> "I love your smile"
> "I love the love in your eyes when you look at me"
> ...


Well, it just seems that you may be trying too hard by constantly "reassuring" him, you MAY also be reopening up the scab. See what I mean? Let it go. 

Besides, after getting divorced a few months ago after 33+ years of marriage, I can say with certainty that WORDS ARE CHEAP - ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS - WATCH HIS FEET, NOT HIS MOUTH ..........I think you get my point.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I was on SurvivingInfidelity for a month or two this year, before they banned me. In general, it was thought that I was not remorseful enough. I must have either changed a lot since then, or the atmosphere on TAM is drastically different (I suspect the latter) because the first comment here was "Forgive yourself". I am unsure whether or not I deserve to forgive myself. Isn't the whole point behind infidelity recovery that you (as a Wayward) irreversibly damaged your spouse and should therefore be prepared to care for him physically, emotionally, and psychologically for, bare minimum, 2-5 years? I got the general impression that while Waywards should never allow feelings of shame to prevent them from doing anything the Betrayed Spouse needs you to do to facilitate their healing, to relinquish that shame completely makes the Wayward less "safe" for their spouse.
> 
> Still, I think, maybe, forgiving myself might be what my BH wants me to do. I've always appeared to trigger harder than he has when I see something that reminds me of the OM. (like the type of religious jewelry he wore, or seeing someone who looks like him, or hearing certain phrases that he used to say) I once had a nightmare- last year or so- that I woke up in mine and my husband's bed, but I rolled over to see HIM there!! I woke up screaming and in total panic. Yet it would be unthinkably insensitive to assume I was the more damaged party of the two of us, because whether I realized it or not, I made a choice. My BH did not invite this into our lives. I did. That's still so freaking painful for me to confront.


Forgiving yourself doen't mea getting rid of shame it means putting the shame in perspective. You DID something that is shameful. Notice the past tense. If you truly changed it is OK to move on from it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> That is a normal marriage. Problem is you got impatient and made the worst decision you could. That is a lack of proper coping mechanisms. A good marriage counselor can help you learn these.


I agree with this. You are lucky you have a husband who is willing to take you back, but you must do the work to figure out why you decided to cheat instead of working it out with him when you felt how you did. Inevitably you may feel board again, or even not as passionately about things. You need to be able to deal with those times without seeking for comfort outside of the marriage.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I agree that I had no coping mechanisms and I am in therapy. However, I would not say my A was born out of impatience. I got married at 18, and he was the longest relationship I'd ever had. I literally had NO IDEA that was what happened in a normal marriage. I thought I must have gotten married to the wrong person if the love wasn't going to stick around by itself forever. I thought my parents would never support me if I decided to get divorced. I handled myself completely wrong though, prioritizing my own safety and security above his. I destroyed his life because I wanted to make sure I had a backup man to live with before I announced it was over. I didn't want to have to spend even one day single and looking. I wanted to be certain I would be financially safe before I moved on. In short, I was supremely selfish and short-sighted. Confused and scared, but overall still very selfish. I had no concept of the idea that marriage takes effort and sometimes pain and vulnerability. I had no concept of the idea that maybe, just maybe, I was destroying his whole psyche by deciding, by myself, without his input, that the marriage was over and I had to find a new man to live with.


Are you sure what you are referring to, "love that you lost" is really love? It sound like what you are describing is more like the early or honeymoon stages of love. Usually long term commitments have a deeper love that is not so intense but more like a warm blanket. The intensity is in the closeness you feel. How you can almost finish each other's sentences, know what the other is thinking without talking about it, but it is very rarely Disney.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

VeryHurt said:


> Well, it just seems that you may be trying too hard by constantly "reassuring" him, you MAY also be reopening up the scab. See what I mean? Let it go.



Not really, no. 


How could I possibly be hurting him by showering him with words of affection and tenderness? I did so all the time when we were dating, except maybe more so, as I wrote him a lot of poetry back then, too.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I agree with this. You are lucky you have a husband who is willing to take you back, but you must do the work to figure out why you decided to cheat instead of working it out with him when you felt how you did. Inevitably you may feel board again, or even not as passionately about things. You need to be able to deal with those times without seeking for comfort outside of the marriage.


I've already learned how to deal, I think. Initiate romantic gestures and eventually the heart will catch up.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Are you sure what you are referring to, "love that you lost" is really love? It sound like what you are describing is more like the early or honeymoon stages of love. Usually long term commitments have a deeper love that is not so intense but more like a warm blanket. The intensity is in the closeness you feel. How you can almost finish each other's sentences, know what the other is thinking without talking about it, but it is very rarely Disney.



Can't it be both? Our relationship seems to have peaks and troughs, where sometimes it's an intense desire to be "traditionally" romantic- go out to dinner, style my hair, waltz around a candlelit garden etc... and sometimes it's finish each other's sentences and Netflix.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Can't it be both? Our relationship seems to have peaks and troughs, where sometimes it's an intense desire to be "traditionally" romantic- go out to dinner, style my hair, waltz around a candlelit garden etc... and sometimes it's finish each others sentences and Netflix.


Yeah sure and I hope you always have that, but times in life can throw you for a loop. Say your husband gets sick and can't be romantic for a year, or he has to work long hours for a few months, you need to make sure that you can be strong for those times when romance is out of your or his control. Life can be hard, and sometimes you are just kind of making it to the next day, even if both of you acknowledge that it sucks at the moment. Make sure you connection is more then just the romance. There is more the love then the intensity of romance, sometimes love is getting up and going to work when you are sick so you can pay the bills. That is just as much an important part of love. Believe me that can be a lot harder to do.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Yeah sure and I hope you always have that, but times in life can throw you for a loop. Say your husband gets sick and can't be romantic for a year, or he has to work long hours for a few months, you need to make sure that you can be strong for those times when romance is out of your or his control. Life can be hard, and sometimes you are just kind of making it to the next day, even if both of you acknowledge that it sucks at the moment. Make sure you connection is more then just the romance. There is more the love then the intensity of romance, sometimes love is getting up and going to work when you are sick so you can pay the bills. That is just as much an important part of love. Believe me that can be a lot harder to do.


I'd prefer not to think about it. The last time I was put in a situation where it looked like he'd be sick for a year or more, I almost literally died of heartbreak. Strength is not one of my...well, strong points. 

If that ever does happen, I suppose the closest thing I've got to a strategy would be to let you all talk me down.


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## browser (Oct 26, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> If that ever does happen, I suppose the closest thing I've got to a strategy would be to let you all talk me down.


You need a good backup plan.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I'd prefer not to think about it. The last time I was put in a situation where it looked like he'd be sick for a year or more, I almost literally died of heartbreak. Strength is not one of my...well, strong points.
> 
> If that ever does happen, I suppose the closest thing I've got to a strategy would be to let you all talk me down.


You will be fine. You made a mistake once and were traumatized by it. But your therapy showed you that you can say No to predators like that guy on the internet.

I am so sorry that guy took advantage of you. And so glad your mother was on top of things and saved you from him. 

Keep being transparent with your husband. Do not hide anything, ever, from him. 

What kind of support network do you have IRL? Sisters, friends, female cousins or neighbors you are close to?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> You will be fine. You made a mistake once and were traumatized by it. But your therapy showed you that you can say No to predators like that guy on the internet.
> 
> I am so sorry that guy took advantage of you. And so glad your mother was on top of things and saved you from him.
> 
> ...


I don't really have a support network, no... my mother, I guess, but other than my husband, not really. I do have several close internet friends, most of whom are male. A couple are female. I don't speak to them much lately, for the last 7 or 8 months or so. And my husband knows all about them, who they are, when we speak and what we talk about, etc. I'm not attracted to any of them and see them as father/brother figures. I like my internet friends for their emotional support, but if things ever REALLY hit the fan, I know it would be unwise to entrust my life to any of them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I don't really have a support network, no... my mother, I guess, but other than my husband, not really. I do have several close internet friends, most of whom are male. A couple are female. I don't speak to them much lately, for the last 7 or 8 months or so. And my husband knows all about them, who they are, when we speak and what we talk about, etc. I'm not attracted to any of them and see them as father/brother figures. I like my internet friends for their emotional support, but if things ever REALLY hit the fan, I know it would be unwise to entrust my life to any of them.


You need girlfriends, hon. IRL girlfriends. Gals you can walk or drive over to visit, chat over a cup of tea with, shop with. Internet friendships are, by their nature, pretty limited.

Are there any cerebral palsy support groups in your area?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> You need girlfriends, hon. IRL girlfriends. Gals you can walk or drive over to visit, chat over a cup of tea with, shop with. Internet friendships are, by their nature, pretty limited.
> 
> Are there any cerebral palsy support groups in your area?


Y'know, I have no idea. A quick google search reveals several charitable groups helping people get medical aid (thankfully not needed due to my father's FANTASTIC insurance) and a couple groups for caregivers who need space to bewail the fact that they got saddled with the sufferer in their life. I appreciate that people need that, but not exactly a group I'd feel good about sitting in on...

I used to have a real-life female friend. She was a girl I went to college with. I attend the same college still, but she graduated early and is now in a different state. It's too bad. I miss her. She and I had a similar fashion sense and taste in movies.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Y'know, I have no idea. A quick google search reveals several charitable groups helping people get medical aid (thankfully not needed due to my father's FANTASTIC insurance) and a couple groups for caregivers who need space to bewail the fact that they got saddled with the sufferer in their life. I appreciate that people need that, but not exactly a group I'd feel good about sitting in on...


You are still on your dad's insurance? You are under 26? Marriage does not nullify that?

Can your husband afford to have you on his when you cannot be on your dad's anymore?

Back to getting some local support . . . You might try clubs of interest to you. What are your hobbies?

The point is just to get out and start meeting people. We all need real life connections.

Hey, just thought of something. Have you tried Meetup.com? You sign up and then get emails saying when local groups of interest to you are forming. Easy way to make some new friends.

ETA: Just saw your addition. I forgot you were in college. That is usually a great place to make some friends. Are you kind of shy? Is that why that has not happened much?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> You are still on your dad's insurance? You are under 26? Marriage does not nullify that?
> 
> Can your husband afford to have you on his when you cannot be on your dad's anymore?
> 
> ...


Yeah, I'd say I'm pretty shy. Yes, I'm 23. Marriage doesn't nullify it. I'm not sure what my coverage will be once I'm 26, but we'll shop around for something. Our car will be paid off by then, and my husband estimates we won't spend much more on health insurance than we do now on car insurance.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Yeah, I'd say I'm pretty shy. Yes, I'm 23. Marriage doesn't nullify it. I'm not sure what my coverage will be once I'm 26, but we'll shop around for something. Our car will be paid off by then, and *my husband estimates we won't spend much more on health insurance than we do now on car insurance.*


My gosh, you're young. How old is your husband?

ETA: Ella, is he sure about the bolded? I ask because we only spend about $1200 a year on car insurance for one of our cars, and about $4000 on health insurance for our family. Plus we have a $2500 family deductible. Health insurance can be very expensive.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> My gosh, you're young. How old is your husband?


He's 33. We met when I was 15, started going out when I was 16, and married shortly after I turned 18. 

Get the shock out of your system all in one go. :grin2:

And, well, he seems pretty certain, and if it comes down to it, we can get less coverage for things I don't need as much in favor of coverage for things I'd die without. We're not going to have family insurance; his and mine will be separate. He says we can save a lot of money that way.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> He's 33. We met when I was 15, started going out when I was 16, and married shortly after I turned 18.
> 
> Get the shock out of your system all in one go. :grin2:


Ella, given your age and other circumstances . . . I think you deserve a pass for this whole "EA" thing. That guy was a predator. And you were vulnerable.

Your husband so much older . . . Your parents "marrying you off" because they were scared they could not find anyone else to take care of you . . . 

Sorry, having a hard time holding you responsible for what you were involved in at such a young, vulnerable age. I do think some other people's hands look less than perfectly clean in all this.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

jld said:


> Ella, given your age and other circumstances . . . I think you deserve a pass for this whole "EA" thing. That guy was a predator. And you were vulnerable.
> 
> Your husband so much older . . . Your parents "marrying you off" because they were scared they could not find anyone else to take care of you . . .
> 
> Sorry, having a hard time holding you responsible for what you were involved in at such a young, vulnerable age. I do think some other people's hands look less than perfectly clean in all this.


Well, it wasn't like I wasn't utterly enthralled with the whole concept, too. I've always been a romantic. I WANTED to get married before I turned 20. I began looking, seriously, at 14. All the Disney Princesses met their soul mate at around 16, and so did I. I felt like I was living a fairy tale. I was lucky it didn't take too long, and what with the whirlwind nature of my relationship with my husband, I am VERY lucky I ended up with someone kind, decent, hardworking and (to the best of his ability) supportive.

Do I wish he'd make more romantic compliments about the way my eyes gleam like polished amber in the moonlight and such? Do I wish he'd write me love letters without my having to ask him? Of course. All women who didn't have the fantastic luck of marrying someone with the charisma of Fitzwilliam Darcy wish that. But overall I really did quite well for myself. I can tell he's thinking all those romantic things by the way his eyes light up like Christmas lights when he looks at me... even if he's not very good at creatively expressing it.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

You where banned as a WS from SI? Impressive. 

Actually TAM tends to be most blunter and in your face then most sites. You are not seeing it here is because you are displaying the qualities a WS needs to show to reconcile.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> And have the courage to be vulnerable. When you have the courage to hand your fears and desires to him, he will see that you want him to take them and do what he needs to do to meet your needs. It's not rocket science. The biggest reason you cheated was you no longer opened up your vulnerability to him. He didn't know what he needed to do to make you happy, and vice versa.


There are some things I need to express to him, that I've tried to say before but I can never quite finish the thought. I've told him all of this at one point or another, but perhaps not as fully as I'm about to do here. And the right questions that would lead me to spill my heart like this have never come up in The And, so... I suppose, before printing out the final version of the last things I have desperately wanted to tell him for years but haven't been able to, I could draft something and post it here and let a bunch of (likely judgmental) strangers read it first and probably judge me. I don't necessarily fear your judgement so much as I fear that you would confirm my own self-hatred for even wanting this, but here goes.

My Dear Mr. Suaveterre,

I can't believe I'm writing this, frankly. There are some things I know- because you've told me- that you simply cannot do, and I am loath to ask anything of you that you can't or don't want to give, because you already give almost everything you have to me. Except for your programming, every single action you've taken in the seven years we've known each other has been for me. Further, I give what I feel I can in return for your innumerable kindnesses to me, but the pile of clothes sitting by the computer desk and the fact that I do not give you mind-blowing orgasms every night is a sad testament to the fact that I have not earned even half of what you do for me day in and day out. This marriage, I know you know, is not 50-50. It's more like 20-80, with the 80 being you. Therefore, I am ashamed to ask any more of you than I already do just by remaining married to you. 

But there are desires and needs that I have that I don't want to entrust to anyone else but you. Not to my internet friends, but to you. We've talked before about my internet friends like Simon and Brandur and Azron. You know them all. You know the things I tell them and the things I ask of them. You know that they fulfill an emotional void I have- a need to be consoled. And you've said before that if I need that from them, I should feel free to take it. But, the attachment I have for them- at least while they are caring for me- is not an attachment I want to have towards anyone but you. I know that the vast reserves of compassion and emotional support they give me are purely platonic, but I don't like that I should ever feel such an intimacy- platonic or not- should be given to anybody but you. It's you I want to comfort me through my great many, often completely spontaneous and causeless, emotional tempests. It's _you_ I want to hold me tight and whisper soothing and sweet everythings in my ear.

I know it's not your favorite activity, and that as we've often discussed, my emotionality is perplexing to you at best and you really don't see how my psyche can be like a sore muscle, requiring regular massage in order to temporarily ease the ache. If you see my request as just another chore that you'd have to do to continue to uphold me, please don't feel the burden _has_ to fall to you. As I've said, you already do more than you should for me, and far more than I deserve. The last thing I want is to chain you to yet one more of my endless needs.

But I don't want any of my gratitude or my adoration or my platonic limerance to be focused on anyone but you- especially if there's even the slightest chance that it could hurt you if it were directed elsewhere. I love you and you remain the center of my life, and in all ways but this, you are my everything. If you would want it, you could be the literal, real alpha and omega of my life- my sole Opheliac, the only god in the temple of my heart, the only one who will ever matter in any sense at all.

With ardor and no small degree of trepidation,
Your Darling,
Ella

Am I a terrible person? I _feel_ like a terrible person for having written that. Here comes the self-hatred. Here comes the plain old vanilla hatred. I'm sure of it. He does so much for me and I- especially as a Wayward- shouldn't want more, shouldn't ask for more, shouldn't try to get more from other people- even if my husband knows and at least says he approves and he's not hurt or jealous. But I'm also supposed to tell him everything, and the more raw and honest the better. This is as raw and honest as it gets, I think. Florid prose doesn't help too much when the message is- Thanks for being my financial, psychological, and even literal physical life support. Can I have one more thing please?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You write well, and I can see you are a Bronte fan....

This part concerns me:



> But there are desires and needs that I have that I don't want to entrust to anyone else but you. Not to my internet friends, but to you. *We've talked before about my internet friends like Simon and Brandur and Azron. You know them all. You know the things I tell them and the things I ask of them. You know that they fulfill an emotional void I have- a need to be consoled. And you've said before that if I need that from them, I should feel free to take it.* But, the attachment I have for them- at least while they are caring for me- is not an attachment I want to have towards anyone but you. I know that the vast reserves of compassion and emotional support they give me are purely platonic, but I don't like that I should ever feel such an intimacy- platonic or not- should be given to anybody but you. It's you I want to comfort me through my great many, often completely spontaneous and causeless, emotional tempests. It's you I want to hold me tight and whisper soothing and sweet everythings in my ear.


Here is what I see. I think your husband loves you desperately. He is also desperate not to lose you. Desperate people make bad decisions when they are searching for a way to save their world, and allowing you to correspond with men, right after it was revealed you had an EA with an online male, was in my opinion a desperate acquiescence on your BH's part. 

Frankly, I do not believe you should be corresponding with these men. I want to tell you something about most men: most men are not interested in friendships with women. If a friendship happens by happenstance then that is a pleasant bonus, but most men don't go out looking for a platonic female friend. The man you had your affair with was a player, who had no interest in just being friends with you. Had things progressed, he would have found a way to meet up with you and have sex with you. 

Now these guys you correspond with may very well be the real deal and are only trying to help you. But do you really think that brings true solace to your BH? He sees these men filling a need in you that he cannot, and at some deep level that has to hurt him. I know that I would be very hurt if the woman I love was getting emotional feeding from other men, when she should only be getting it from me. 

Please answer these questions....

1) Have you really given your husband the chance to be your emotional support, or have you just assumed all along that he is not up to the task? 

2) Why do you need SO much emotional support from so many people..men and women? 

3) Why do you need MALE emotional support specifically? Why can you not be satisfied with emotional support from girlfriends? 

4) Why do you seek out male validation and emotional feeding? 

5) Why is not one man's emotional support enough? 

6) Why do you need *four *men bolstering your emotional health? Don't you see that as a bit absurd? 

You have a lot of issues to work on. Frankly, again, I would not send this letter to your husband, because what it will be saying to him is that he is not cutting the mustard. I think everything else in the letter is fine, but you need to isolate the reasons for your neediness for outside emotional validation with your counselor before you make these kinds of demands on your husband. Your husband just had his universe rocked by what you did. Now is not the time to be displaying his deficiencies as a mate. You need to stop his bleeding first and suture the wounds you made. Later on, after he is out of ICU, and the shock of your affair has worn off a bit, then the two of you can start working on these needs. 

If you must give him the letter, then I would simply ask him for more emotional support, and tell him you will be terminating your correspondences with these men as an olive branch and proof that you are focusing only on him and no other. I would tell him that you are focusing on isolating why you are so needy and that you are working towards moire emotional independence. 

You are so damn young. I'm glad we caught you now while your brain is still somewhat malleable.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> There are some things I need to express to him, that I've tried to say before but I can never quite finish the thought. I've told him all of this at one point or another, but perhaps not as fully as I'm about to do here. And the right questions that would lead me to spill my heart like this have never come up in The And, so... I suppose, before printing out the final version of the last things I have desperately wanted to tell him for years but haven't been able to, I could draft something and post it here and let a bunch of (likely judgmental) strangers read it first and probably judge me. I don't necessarily fear your judgement so much as I fear that you would confirm my own self-hatred for even wanting this, but here goes.
> 
> My Dear Mr. Suaveterre,
> 
> ...


You should absolutely show him this letter! If it is what you are feeling in your heart, he should know about it. Transparency builds trust.

Now, does transparency mean you get what you want? Of course not. Transparency starts the conversation. The end of the conversation can look very different from the beginning.

Your husband has to be strong enough to hear everything in your heart. If he cannot, you two will have problems. You will end up seeking another outlet not nearly as healthy as your husband.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I don't really have a support network, no... my mother, I guess, but other than my husband, not really. I do have several close internet friends, most of whom are male. A couple are female. I don't speak to them much lately, for the last 7 or 8 months or so. And my husband knows all about them, who they are, when we speak and what we talk about, etc. I'm not attracted to any of them and see them as father/brother figures. I like my internet friends for their emotional support, but if things ever REALLY hit the fan, I know it would be unwise to entrust my life to any of them.


you can have additional affairs by not having good proper boundaries.

have you read not just friends? to help your H really get over your A and not rugsweep and have it come back to haunt you make sure you try counseling with someone with experience. one example / affair recovery .com/

and think about how you would feel if he had an affair on you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

harrybrown said:


> you can have additional affairs by not having good proper boundaries.
> 
> have you read not just friends? to help your H really get over your A and not rugsweep and have it come back to haunt you make sure you try counseling with someone with experience. one example / affair recovery .com/
> 
> and* think about how you would feel if he had an affair on you*.


Yep, think about how you would feel if you married a man with physical and mental disabilities, sweet and innocent, ten years younger than you, no more than a child, really, whose parents were just happy that you, healthy and with a good job, were willing to care for him and provide for him as soon as he became of she. Would you truly be shocked if that young man, when exposed to the wider world, realized there were other women in the world he might be attracted to? Would you, with your much greater life experience, truly hold it against him?

Or would your own conscience bother you?

Would you ask yourself if what you had done, with the complicity of his parents, would have been how you yourself would want to be treated in the same position?

Ella, I really do not think you should carry all this guilt and shame about this "affair." And I think your husband realizes that, too. And that is why he has been as mature about it as he has. When someone practically robs the cradle, these things are likely to happen. Or at least not unknown.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> Please answer these questions....
> 
> 1) Have you really given your husband the chance to be your emotional support, or have you just assumed all along that he is not up to the task?
> 
> ...


Well, my A happened in October of 2014, so I would hope and pray the wound still isn't fresh. If it's that raw, I've got a LOT of work to do to help him, you're right. A practical step may indeed be terminating most of my online friendships.

1) A little of both. He is actually quite supportive when I'm upset, just not in the ways I'd prefer, the ways I find most comforting. In case you haven't noticed, I can get really fluffy and sappy with the words. My primary love language is words of affirmation. His is Quality Time. We both share physical touch as a secondary one, so in our house- and in public or wherever we happen to be- it's a nonstop cuddlefest. For seven years we've been unable to keep our hands off one another, so I hope that he is somewhat comforted by that. We do go out and make memories together and spend quality time together, but it's gotten a bit routine and I have been thinking of ways to spice it up...

...Tangent, sorry. Anyway, yes but he's not as verbally fluffy as I find I need.

2) The ever-elusive "Why". Mostly, because I have a chorus of voices in my head telling me I'm scum and I'm utterly incapable of doing anything in any capacity. Self-esteem aside, the second part might very well be true. I seem to have a bottomless emotional pit to satiate the fear of being left alone to fend for myself, which would almost certainly equal literal, physical death, if not by starvation or some medical issue, then by my own hand due to the sheer terror of the prospect. If I have 10 or 20 people telling me it's going to be alright, they're here for me, they'll be my anchor and my crying shoulder, then I am 10 or 20 steps removed from oblivion. Trusting one man almost feels at times like being one step from falling off the Grand Canyon.

3) I know that women are, by their biological nature, more nurturing, but I also know that we tend to subconsciously view each other as competition. I do not need to compete with men, so I tend to choose nurturing, effeminate men as my friends. One of my friends is Autistic, one is gay and deeply in denial about it, and one was literally raised as a girl until he was five. They're all just a little bit psychologically skewed and all very, very nurturing, seeking someone even more needy and mentally off to make them feel more masculine. They, unlike women, see no threat in me. In short, their crazy matches my crazy. Of course, it took me years of therapy to be able to verbalize all of this; it's been subconscious for so long. 

4) See 3

5) See 2

6) Yes but no. I have a serious, severe emotional deficiency stemming from the idea that if I ever had to physically or psychologically look after myself, I'd be so scared of the prospect I'd probably commit suicide. In therapy, I've made great strides with the psychological aspect of self-care, and I can actually survive a mental storm for 2 or 3 days without talking to ANYBODY if they don't happen to be around. It's taken me years to get to the point where I can do that, and it feels like I'm gonna die when I have to do that, but I can, and I'm really rather shocked at myself that I can actually do it.

...Sorry, going on a tangent again. Anyway, humans aren't limitless in their capacity to care for someone. If I trust only ONE of my friends to handle ALL of my emotional void during a particularly rough spell, it's like putting a vacuum on their soul, and I risk them being burnt out and drained rather quickly. I feel terrible about hurting somebody like that and it is the last thing I want to do, so I spread my neediness out among multiple people so nobody has to shoulder all of me all of the time. People get less stressed that way. Also, see #2 about having as many steps between me and death as possible.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

I understand your #1 love language is words of affirmation. What causes me concern is that you seem to want those words to be of a specific type (flowery and romantic and wordy). The vast majority of men are not capable of expressing their feelings in the way that you do in your writings. Most men will not employee the the lines and flowery, descriptive prose that you seem to crave. Unless their goal is to get into your pants and then the lines are from a book on how to get women and not genuine. You seem to want the words from books of classical romantic writers of tragic romances and love poems. 

Did your on-line AP hook you with lines like that during your affair?

I hate to say it, but if being wooed like that is what you desire above all else and what you cannot live without, you are at risk of repeating the affair when some smooth talking guy gives you that in the future. I don't think your husband will ever measure up to your ideal of what you want.

I suppose my wife and I were in a similar place where you and your husband are now. I just could not put two words together in the manner that would satisfy her need to be appreciated. I finally bought her a record (yeah I just aged myself. Do you even know what a record is? Round, made of vinyl?) - Never my love, by a group called the Association - and told her this is me. That helped. We have now been married almost 42 years. It was the only thing I could think of and it was shortly after I caught her heading out to dinner with a guy from her exercise class. "Just a friend" she said. No, I said it is a date and my wife does not go on dates with other men. If you go, I will not be here when you get back.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

Tatsuhiko said:


> I would say that your spontaneous apology was very meaningful to your husband.


THIS! Most betrayed spouses can only wish for this type of sincere apology.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> Did your on-line AP hook you with lines like that during your affair?


Actually he didn't. What drew me to him was that he said he had a disabled daughter whom he cared for, and he said he had money. I assumed my marriage was ending and was thinking along the lines of survival rather than romance. He almost never said so much as one kind word to me, in fact.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Actually he didn't. What drew me to him was that he said he had a disabled daughter whom he cared for, and he said he had money. I assumed my marriage was ending and was thinking along the lines of survival rather than romance. He almost never said so much as one kind word to me, in fact.


It seems security was more important to you than anything else. But I still cannot understand why you would go off to an unknown man even if you felt you did not love your husband any more. Did you think your husband was going to dump you? Did your husband do anything around that time that made you think he was getting ready to leave or was it all supposition on your part?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

TDSC60 said:


> It seems security was more important to you than anything else. But I still cannot understand why you would go off to an unknown man even if you felt you did not love your husband any more. Did you think your husband was going to dump you? Did your husband do anything around that time that made you think he was getting ready to leave or was it all supposition on your part?


It was all supposition. My feelings for him were fading, so I figured his were for me too, it if they weren't, they would be very soon. I presumed my marriage was dying and I had little time before he announced he was leaving, so I scrambled to get a backup plan together. Altogether, it was thoughtless and shameful.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Thound said:


> Just my 2cents worth, but by not forgiving yourself, you are doing damage to your marriage. You keep bringing up a painful memory to your husband. By not forgiving yourself, you keep wallowing in the quagmire you have created, and it keeps you from moving forward to a better life, and a stronger marriage.


 I've read a # of your posts... worries.. intense Romanticism, health issues, I think you see a therapist too , I haven't got the clearest picture of how you met your husband or what the 2 of you had in common....still hazy to me....did you marry for love or security... 

I can't help but agree with this post above ..... if your husband has forgiven you ....trust his words to you...but at the same time...you have a role to play walking in this forgiveness.. Loved @bandit.45 's post #47 .. this is your walk towards him.. not to keep rehashing this...


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Captain Wentworth to Anne Elliot...

_*I can listen no longer in silence. I must speak to you by such means as are within my reach. You pierce my soul. I am half agony, half hope. Tell me not that I am too late, that such precious feelings are gone for ever. I offer myself to you again with a heart even more your own than when you almost broke it, eight years and a half ago. Dare not say that man forgets sooner than woman, that his love has an earlier death. I have loved none but you. Unjust I may have been, weak and resentful I have been, but never inconstant. You alone have brought me to Bath. For you alone, I think and plan. Have you not seen this? Can you fail to have understood my wishes? I had not waited even these ten days, could I have read your feelings, as I think you must have penetrated mine. I can hardly write. I am every instant hearing something which overpowers me. You sink your voice, but I can distinguish the tones of that voice when they would be lost on others. Too good, too excellent creature! You do us justice, indeed. You do believe that there is true attachment and constancy among men. Believe it to be most fervent, most undeviating, in

*_ .

From Jane Austen's _Persuasion_.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> Captain Wentworth to Anne Elliot...
> 
> _*I can listen no longer in silence. I must speak to you by such means as are within my reach. You pierce my soul. I am half agony, half hope. Tell me not that I am too late, that such precious feelings are gone for ever. I offer myself to you again with a heart even more your own than when you almost broke it, eight years and a half ago. Dare not say that man forgets sooner than woman, that his love has an earlier death. I have loved none but you. Unjust I may have been, weak and resentful I have been, but never inconstant. You alone have brought me to Bath. For you alone, I think and plan. Have you not seen this? Can you fail to have understood my wishes? I had not waited even these ten days, could I have read your feelings, as I think you must have penetrated mine. I can hardly write. I am every instant hearing something which overpowers me. You sink your voice, but I can distinguish the tones of that voice when they would be lost on others. Too good, too excellent creature! You do us justice, indeed. You do believe that there is true attachment and constancy among men. Believe it to be most fervent, most undeviating, in
> 
> ...


Is this what you think my husband is now thinking of me?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I'd prefer not to think about it. The last time I was put in a situation where it looked like he'd be sick for a year or more, I almost literally died of heartbreak. Strength is not one of my...well, strong points.
> 
> If that ever does happen, I suppose the closest thing I've got to a strategy would be to let you all talk me down.


Ella, I am not trying to push you here or anything, but the best plan is being prepared. Now that doesn't mean assuming the worst it means like a weight lifter you slowly build up your strength. You train your mind to be stronger, slowly. You move intrusive thoughts out and positive ones in. Again you need to understand just because life gets busy that doesn't mean that you are not loved. You need to think about how you will handle these things before they happen so you are not left rudderless if your husband or you does get busy.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I've read a # of your posts... worries.. intense Romanticism, health issues, I think you see a therapist too , I haven't got the clearest picture of how you met your husband or what the 2 of you had in common....still hazy to me....did you marry for love or security...
> 
> I can't help but agree with this post above ..... if your husband has forgiven you ....trust his words to you...but at the same time...you have a role to play walking in this forgiveness.. Loved @bandit.45 's post #47 .. this is your walk towards him.. not to keep rehashing this...


We met via the internet, on a virtual world. He was slightly tipsy and made a slightly flirtatious comment my way at a moment when I was stood there in cyberspace complaining that I was 15 and single and shouldn't men be falling all over me in the flowering of my youth?

He didn't really remember his drunken comment that night. But I did, and I spent the next three months constructing palaces out of poetry, trying to woo him. I scared him off at first, but he was intrigued because he'd never had anyone just throw herself at him like that with everything she's got. I told my parents I'd met my soul mate on the Internet and they appeared to be thrilled to see me coherent and happy. They checked him out via Interpol and paid for his flight for my 16th birthday, where we made our courtship official. The rest is history.

As to what we have in common- back then I was a singer, and he was a composer. I felt like his Muse. We've both since given up our musical aspirations, but he says he'd like me to return to the stage someday, and he says he still loves my voice even though I think it sounds terrible due to a year and a half of being out of practice. 

We both love Chopin. We have similar tastes in TV shows, and he loves and tolerates my liking for all things pink and childish in a way nobody else would.

I married for love AND security in equal parts. I got engaged purely for love, but as the wedding grew closer I recognized more and more how much my life was about to be in his hands, that my parents would literally give me away to him, and that most of the security and safety they once gave me would be his responsibility. I was head-over-heels in infatuation to the point where I could barely breathe for all the wonderful limerant feelings, but as a newlywed I couldn't imagine trusting him as much as I trusted my mother and father. Now, I am actually more at home and at ease with him than with them. I guess that's what living with someone for five years will do. 

I mean, there's always the idea that he could just walk away at any time, but that doesn't scare me as much as it did back in the first 3 years of our marriage because I don't think he'd be very quick to do that.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> Ella, given your age and other circumstances . . . I think you deserve a pass for this whole "EA" thing. That guy was a predator. And you were vulnerable.
> 
> Your husband so much older . . . Your parents "marrying you off" because they were scared they could not find anyone else to take care of you . . .
> 
> Sorry, having a hard time holding you responsible for what you were involved in at such a young, vulnerable age. I do think some other people's hands look less than perfectly clean in all this.



You have a hard time holding any woman responsible for anything. :grin2:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> You have a hard time holding any woman responsible for anything. :grin2:


An 18 year old with all the complications she has had?

Definitely giving her a pass on the "affair" issue.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> Yep, think about how you would feel if you married a man with physical and mental disabilities, sweet and innocent, ten years younger than you, no more than a child, really, whose parents were just happy that you, healthy and with a good job, were willing to care for him and provide for him as soon as he became of she. Would you truly be shocked if that young man, when exposed to the wider world, realized there were other women in the world he might be attracted to? Would you, with your much greater life experience, truly hold it against him?
> 
> Or would your own conscience bother you?
> 
> ...


Sorry jid but you are wrong again many of us didn't have affairs when we were young because we knew it was wrong. You don't get a pass when you are 20 years old. This is not good advice. Better advice is to move on from the wrong you did and learn proper boundaries. Doesn't even seem like she wants a pass. Becoming and adult is partly about taking responsible for your actions.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

So you were 15 and he was what? 26?!!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Sorry jid but you are wrong again many of us didn't have affairs when we were young because we knew it was wrong. You don't get a pass when you are 20 years old. This is not good advice. Better advice is to move on from the wrong you did and learn proper boundaries. Doesn't even seem like she wants a pass. Becoming and adult is partly about taking responsible for your actions.


Were you carrying all the baggage she was?

She learned from it and will not do it again. I am giving her a pass. And I think her husband has, too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> So you were 15 and he was what? 26?!!


He was 25. Would you let your 15 year old daughter date a 25 year old?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> He was 25. Would you let your 15 year old daughter date a 25 year old?


Nope, didn't get that. You're right this was a bad situation to begin with. Still doesn't make cheating right but there are bigger problems that is for sure.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

We played our game, "The and" again tonight. He tells me he honestly doesn't mind my online friendships- that because of their effeminate nature he knows- "By default", he put it, that he doesn't have anything to fear. That the only times he gets jealous of my online friends is when I spend all my time with them and not enough with him. He says he would not feel any different if my friends were female. He says the question, "What would you do if you suspected I was being unfaithful?" is as absurd as the question, "What would you do if I started walking on the ceiling?" and that both have about an equal chance of happening. He says he really believes I learned from my A in 2014, and that I won't do it again. 

I agreed with him. I told him, "So many people on TAM have gotten literal PTSD because their partners cheated, and the idea that I could have done that to you causes me so much pain and makes me feel so very, very protective of you- like I want to nurture you and help you heal." He says he's fine now, really. 

Then we started speaking of emotional intimacy in general. I told him I was so very proud of how far he had come in learning to be emotionally vulnerable with me and learning to talk about difficult and emotional subjects. I told him I was seriously in awe at his strength and his composure when we play our "game" and when he has to confront his fear of emotional intimacy. He compared the idea of spilling out his heart to being shown a big, hairy spider, and that he's been that way all his life due to how he was raised. He says he's always been like that, even pre-A. I know he has, because for basically our entire courtship, the man was tipsy. He had to get drunk just to have the courage to say meaningful words to me, and now he's doing it sober on the regular. I said, "I know it's scary, but for one, the more you do something scary and realize it's not going to hurt you, the less afraid of it you get, and that's what our "game" is about... and for two, I recognize that being honest and vulnerable is not easy for you and as such, I admire ALL of your attempts at emotional intimacy. Even if you don't think you've done well, I think you have just by virtue of trying at all."

Another thing we talked about was that I feared that he thought I wasn't pulling my weight. He says he is NOT disappointed in what I do (or don't do), to my great relief. He says he doesn't believe at all that he'll grow to resent me for being dependent upon him. He said that he didn't think I was doing too little and that he's proud of the things I DO manage to do- like my academic successes. He said, "I am a simple guy. I don't ask for a lot. I don't need a lot. I mean, what more can I want, besides someone to love? And someone who loves me?" I melted a little bit.

We ended the game as we always do- with hugs and cuddles and kisses- and now he's watching silly videos to decompress. I really admire his strength. I always have.

We're planning a HUGE date night after school lets out for winter break. We're going to go out to dinner, paint pottery as early Christmas gifts to each other, and then go home and open a bottle of champagne and... ahem... "practice".

I cannot wait!!!!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

OK even though the 15 - 25 thing is grossing me out, I am going to ignore that since you have been married and you are now legal age. My question to you is why are all your confidants men? That doesn't make sense. Look no ones spouse is able to fulfill all our emotional needs, nor are they meant to be. That is not how life works. To be a well rounded person we need friends and interests that are separate from our SO. Partly because it is too much pressure for anyone to fulfill every part of another persons life. 

However in this situation you have already had issues because of your male online friend. Even if it didn't destroy your husband the AP ended up being a creep. Why are you continuing the pattern that lead you to such a bad place. Secondly you met your husband as an online friend, so you seem to have a disposition to fall for these guys. Why do you continue to put yourself in situations where you will be tempted. OK maybe you don't like these 3, *three* men, but eventually you might find one you do. Is that fair to your husband to continue to tempt fate? 

I would submit to you what would have happened if your AP wasn't and @sshole? You probably would have stayed with him, in 3 or so years when the newness worn off you would probably have been in the same boat, however you would have already left your first husband (current husband) destroyed. What happens if the next guy friend is nice and does want to have a relationship with you. 

You need to have healthier boundaries in your marriage. The key to not cheating is not putting yourself into a position to be tempted to cheat. You need girlfriends who are like minded and will support your marriage. You can have the same intimate conversations and assuming you and they are straight there will be no temptation to do wrong. 

Finally I wonder how your husband really feels knowing he met you online, you met your affair partner online, and you continue to have many male friends with which, in your own words, you have intimate conversations with online. I am sure it doesn't leave him with tons of confidence, even if he is not saying anything. 

Something to think about.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> OK even though the 15 - 25 thing is grossing me out, I am going to ignore that since you have been married and you are now legal age. My question to you is why are all your confidants men? That doesn't make sense. Look no ones spouse is able to fulfill all our emotional needs, nor are they meant to be. That is not how life works. To be a well rounded person we need friends and interests that are separate from our SO. Partly because it is too much pressure for anyone to fulfill every part of another persons life.


As I said before, it has to do with the fact that I just don't get on well with other women. I have yet to really discover why, and I'm working on that in therapy. I'm going again on Wednesday and I'll be sure to ask my therapist- a woman- next time I go. I mostly get along best with effeminate men and transgender women. 




sokillme said:


> However in this situation you have already had issues because of your male online friend. Even if it didn't destroy your husband the AP ended up being a creep. Why are you continuing the pattern that lead you to such a bad place. Secondly you met your husband as an online friend, so you seem to have a disposition to fall for these guys. Why do you continue to put yourself in situations where you will be tempted. OK maybe you don't like these 3, *three* men, but eventually you might find one you do. Is that fair to your husband to continue to tempt fate?


No. No it isn't. If I ever do find myself in a situation where I develop a crush, I'll tell my husband about it and tell the OP about it, and break contact. Why would I tell the OP about it? Because if he is an honorable person, he'll say, "That's terrible! You're married. I agree, we shouldn't act on this at all. See ya." If he's not honorable, and he starts to flirt with me, I'll be disgusted that he wants to get in my pants and feel just fine about going NC now that I know that the OP has no honor. I've actually been in that situation post-A before and handled it like that and it seemed to work well for me and my BH.



sokillme said:


> I would submit to you what would have happened if your AP wasn't and @sshole? You probably would have stayed with him, in 3 or so years when the newness worn off you would probably have been in the same boat, however you would have already left your first husband destroyed. What happens if the next guy is nice and does want to have a relationship with you.


You're probably right, I would have. And three years later, I would have gotten bored and probably cheated on him too. And so on and so forth until I was too old to find a new partner and I died alone and unloved and too stupid to realize that real love has seasons and requires work. Wouldn't that have been bloody tragic? For that reason I'm almost kind of glad the OM was a monster.



sokillme said:


> You need to have healthier boundaries in your marriage. The key to not cheating is not putting yourself into a position to be tempted to cheat. You need girlfriends who are like minded and will support your marriage. You can have the same intimate conversations and assuming you and they are straight there will be no temptation to do wrong.


I'm actually bi, and I tend to lust after women more than men, and I tend to like emotional contact with men more than women. The lust I feel for women is purely a physical, sexual lust- her hair, her eyes, her waistline, etc. I feel less inclined to find a woman attractive for her mind or her soul. With men it's the opposite. If I develop sexual feelings towards a man, it usually has to do with his personality. Of course I am physically attracted to some men too, but the attraction isn't as strong. I fell in love with my husband for his personality rather than his looks. I fell in "love" (I get nauseated using that word in that context) with the OM because he was intelligent. It was a bit of a shock to my husband when we found out I'm bi, but discovering your sexuality after you get married is part of what happens when you marry at 18, I suppose.



sokillme said:


> Finally I wonder how your husband really feels knowing he met you online, you met your affair partner online, and you continue to have many male friends with which, in your own words, you have intimate conversations with online. I am sure it doesn't leave him with tons of confidence, even if he is not saying anything.
> 
> Something to think about.


All I have to go on there is what he himself has told me. He has said to me tonight that the idea of me cheating on him seems absolutely absurd, and that he knows in his heart of hearts that my male friends and I don't have some unrequited lust for one another. It well may be that secretly, he is jealous and hurt, but he shows no outward signs of it. If he really is jealous, I would hope he has it in him to tell me outright so I can handle it and do whatever I need to do to make it right, whether that is talking to him, breaking it off with my friends, going to MC, getting him in IC or (most probably) all of the above.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> No. No it isn't. If I ever do find myself in a situation where I develop a crush, I'll tell my husband about it and tell the OP about it, and break contact. Why would I tell the OP about it? Because if he is an honorable person, he'll say, "That's terrible! You're married. I agree, we shouldn't act on this at all. See ya." If he's not honorable, and he starts to flirt with me, I'll be disgusted that he wants to get in my pants and feel just fine about going NC now that I know that the OP has no honor. I've actually been in that situation post-A before and handled it like that and it seemed to work well for me and my BH.


I like to think of myself as an honorable person, but if my wife who has already cheated on me told me that she had developed a crush on someone in exactly the same manor as the first incident, that would just be to much for me. Frankly I would be pissed that she had such poor boundaries to get in that situation again. And there would be nothing dishonorable about me being pissed. At that point I would decide that this wife was not really mature enough to be married. The fact that this has happened again post A is not a good sign. Sooner or later someone is going to intrigue you and it could even sneak up on you. Have you not read on here? How many affairs start where the person says we were just friends at first but then I started to develop feelings. Again the best way to avoid infidelity is to not put yourself in the position to be tempted.

So you say you have to be attracted to a man emotionally and yet you are having primarily emotional relationships with men. That doesn't make sense. 

Why does you husband think it is "absolutely absurd" that you would cheat. When you already have? Again this is not logical is he in counseling?


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## Max77 (Dec 6, 2016)

Hi, first of all you have a great man next to you. I'm not able to forgive and forget and this ended many important relationships of mine. You have to forgive yourself also because I think that he doesn't need to think about it when he's not thinking about it! Other than this...are you giving him something special/different from what other got in a sexually way? I'm thinking about, and I do apologize for the terms, anal, swallow, anything else he can wish/desire and so on. Give him something you didn't give to other and tell him BEFORE AND WITHOUT MENTION EX something like "I want to do something new for you, let's try XXX" this will make him feel special ... in a sexual way at least ... anyway, forgive yourself


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> I like to think of myself as an honorable person, but if my wife who has already cheated on me told me that she had developed a crush on someone in exactly the same manor as the first incident, that would just be to much for me. Frankly I would be pissed that she had such poor boundaries to get in that situation again. And there would be nothing dishonorable about me being pissed. At that point I would decide that this wife was not really mature enough to be married. The fact that this has happened again post A is not a good sign. Sooner or later someone is going to intrigue you and it could even sneak up on you. Have you not read on here? How many affairs start where the person says we were just friends at first but then I started to develop feelings. Again the best way to avoid infidelity is to not put yourself in the position to be tempted.
> 
> So you say you have to be attracted to a man emotionally and yet you are having primarily emotional relationships with men. That doesn't make sense.
> 
> Why does you husband think it is "absolutely absurd" that you would cheat. When you already have? Again this is not logical is he in counseling?


I see what you're saying, I do. Honestly, I'm pretty surprised he trusts me as much as he does. Generally he's a very, very logically-minded person and it surprises me that he has come to the conclusion that he can trust me. _I_ think I can trust myself, but I'm amazed HE can.

But again, I don't form emotional bonds with women. Maybe I could look into learning how to do so in IC if male friends were taken off the table for me, as you think needs to happen. I wouldn't want to go through my whole life not having any friends outside of the marriage if my husband doesn't think he has the inclination to be as fluffy and florid as I need/want him to be.

Another thing though is that infidelity can only occur when the Betrayed Spouse does not know what is going on between the WS and the OP, _or_ does not consent to what is going on. I have made certain I do NOT keep secrets from my BH anymore, and I have asked him again and again to tell me if and when he feels jealous or betrayed, and he has told me he doesn't. That the only time he has felt betrayed was when I spent too much time with my friends and not enough with him. That it was the amount of time I gave them, not the things I did or the feelings I felt, that hurt him. I had asked him, when he told me this, if he wanted me to cut ties with my friends. He said he didn't think it necessary. I then cut back drastically on the amount of time I spent with my friends, and he said all was well. I asked him tonight if he would prefer I not see my friends anymore and he said it wasn't necessary. 

So if he knows everything about what I'm doing, where, when, and with whom, and has not expressed that he disapproves, I am not being unfaithful.

Since, however, you are bringing to my attention that if it were you you would have divorced your WS a long time ago, I have to think for a while about my actions. Am I avoiding cutting contact with my friends because I would miss the emotional support they provide? Yes, yes I am.

Is that cake-eating? Am I keeping my friendships _at my husband's expense_? I don't know. I don't _think_ so. My husband says he approves of my friendships, knows I want them, is fine with it, etc. _I_ don't feel inappropriately close to my friends. I feel like if I talked to my husband (more) about what was going on I'd just get the same answer so it's up to me to decide.

As of the last 6-8 months or so, I've scarcely had any contact with my friends. My husband has been my "BFF" as well as my partner lately, serving both roles. School and a falling out with one of the people in my friend group, as well as other factors, have meant I haven't gotten to see my friends as much as I usually do. I've really enjoyed getting close to my husband, but at the same time I feel very much in need of a type of comfort he seems incapable of providing. If I start spending more time with my friends, I will try to figure out how to monitor my husband's emotional needs and reactions without hurting him more. If he needs me to be around my friends less, or not at all, I will. I wouldn't like not having any friends outside the M, but if that's what he needs to heal I'd do it, at least until I learned how to form the deep emotional bonds with women that I currently have with my male friends.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

That must be hard, to be bisexual. You are not really "safe" with either sex.

Have you shown your husband your posts here? Has he considered joining TAM, too?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

My husband isn't really a "forum" type of person. He doesn't share his thoughts readily with anyone. I'm the closest he's ever been with anyone, and even I sometimes feel like I have no idea what he's thinking or feeling. If he asked to read any of my Forum posts, I'd let him without hesitation.

I would tell him that I want him to read my posts, but I don't want to stress him out by forcing him to read my most secret thoughts, especially as we played "the and" yesterday, so we had a lot of emotional intimacy already- at least by his standards. I'm afraid of hurting him or wearing him out.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Is this what you think my husband is now thinking of me?


I think, if he could communicate to you in the romantic prose you so desire,...yes. I think your husband has passion for you, but he cannot express it. 95% of most men cannot.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I've downloaded the "Not Just Friends" audio book. I got it for free because of my amazon prime account. I'm sure it will help me navigate both what lingers of my BH's pain, and my own paranoia that he may one day be unfaithful to me. I've actually been afraid of that since we first started dating, more due to innate insecurity than anything he's actually done or not done. 

I'd ask if my BH wants to give it a listen along with me or after me, but again, I don't want to hurt him or exhaust him, or make him feel pressured to do anything (else) that would be painful for him.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I wonder if you have ever asked your counselor how to go about learning to love and respect yourself again? 

Don't you deserve that? Doesn't anyone who is with you deserve a woman who loves and respects herself? How can someone who does not love and respect themselves, love someone else? 

Maybe some questions to ask the counselor? 

You will be more attractive when you find these feelings for yourself. 

Fight for yourself. You are worth it. Believe it. Want it. Get it. Ask your counselor for help. Just do it.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

i was wondering if you got involved with the abusive OM NOT because you had some mental issues, but simply because you are sexually submissive and wanted the abuse. I do not know you well enough to suggest that too forcefully, but it is a possibility. Often when a woman is submissive she is afraid to tell her husband, but is willing to tell a complete stranger online.

IF there is a possiblility of that, you might be able to have your husband try some more dominant sexual moves with you. If he fills that role fully, then there will never be another reason to stray outside the marriage. But, of course, you have to get up the nerve to ASK him to be your dom.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Talker67 said:


> i was wondering if you got involved with the abusive OM NOT because you had some mental issues, but simply because you are sexually submissive and wanted the abuse. I do not know you well enough to suggest that too forcefully, but it is a possibility. Often when a woman is submissive she is afraid to tell her husband, but is willing to tell a complete stranger online.
> 
> IF there is a possiblility of that, you might be able to have your husband try some more dominant sexual moves with you. If he fills that role fully, then there will never be another reason to stray outside the marriage. But, of course, you have to get up the nerve to ASK him to be your dom.


Not really, no. I'm submissive, but in the "Treat me very gently for I am small and fragile" way, not in the, "Yes, Master, hit me more" way. :|


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

My husband and I went out to dinner just now. I ended up not showing him the letter, but telling him everything that was in it. What I said was, "I know you don't see a problem with my friends, and I don't either, but I have realized lately that I don't actually _want_ them to be my main support system. I want that to be _you_. I thought he would say, as he usually did, that he just wasn't good at comforting people. 

But to my happy surprise, he smiled- his face lit up, softly, like a candle- and he said, "Okay. How, exactly, can I support you? What can I do?

I said, "Hold me, and cuddle me, and when I'm having a bad day, tell me that everything's going to be alright and that you're here for me and you'll always be here for me."

To which he replied, sounding almost surprised, "Well of course I'll always be here for you. Where else would I go??"

I said, "I know you're not going anywhere, but it is really calming to hear you _verbalize_ your love and support."

He said, "Okay, well... I'm sure... whatever you're worried about...will be okay, because right now we really don't have any major problems."

I practically purred. I said, "See? I don't mind people like, say, Simon, being there for me, but I'd much rather it be you."

He said, "But I'm not Simon. I can't be like him."

I replied, "I don't expect you to. You don't have to be Mr. Darcy. The idea is that you verbally remind me that you care about my well-being and want to support me."

He said, "Well, I do."

And I said, "Thank you."


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Ugh, really struggling with the self-worth aspect right now. I just responded to a thread about whether waywards are bad people.

My husband is sleeping next to me and if he weren't so sleepy I'd hug the daylights out of him, feel his body against mine, breathe him in...

Breathe in his love for me... Breathe in my love for him... 

Who am I? What am I? _Do_ I deserve self-love? Really? Do I?

How the hell can I be a victim of abuse and a perpetrator AT THE SAME TIME??

How does that work?? 

Gods damn it, I wish I thought I were a good person. I wish I could see myself the same way Mr. Suaveterre does. I think. I mean, I think he looks at me with love and forgiveness. 

And then I read about what all these BH's go through... one poor guy survived Iraq unscathed, but finding out his WW cheated was what made him mix booze and pills and want to drive his car into a wall!! Jesus Christ, I DID THAT to my husband. Well, okay, a little bit of that. He told me tonight that back in 2014 he felt betrayed and devastated "a little bit". So not AS BAD as driving a man to suicidality, but still.

I'm not supposed to be overwhelmed with feelings. I'm supposed to carry my shame and remorse with the grace and dignity of a saint. I'm supposed to put him first. I'm supposed to accept that I've taken myself down several notches on the morality ladder and be graceful about it all. Whatever I bloody do, I'm not supposed to make this about me in any capacity. I am supposed to be a tool for his healing and nothing else.

Well right now I just can't.

Venting, raging, crying... at myself? At BSes?! At the world? At the [email protected] OM? I don't even know right now.

A couple of people on TAM gave me "a pass". My husband says I've "more than made up for it".

So what are these feelings doing here? Whom do I hate and why?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Just breathe... remember those long, deep breaths we talked about.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Just breathe... remember those long, deep breaths we talked about.


I'm breathing. I am also listening to Disney piano music and crying, I'm not ashamed to say.

It would be wonderful if my husband would get up and come hug me, but I understand he's too tired, so I settled for laying next to him for a moment and saying, "I know you're a sleepy darling, but I really need you right now." and he grabbed onto the arm that was draped over top of him. 

I said, "Do you think I'm a bad person?" and he shook his head into the pillow and grunted in a way that would indicate a "no".

I said, "Thank you" and he nodded and mumbled what sounded like it was probably, "You're welcome".

But he was tired, and he couldn't very well sleep with my arm on top of him and my breathing on the back of his neck, so I removed myself from the bed and I'm on the floor now, typing on my laptop, listening to Disney instrumentals and silently crying. And breathing.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

You have a lot on your plate. I have a life long friend with CP. His is severe. It includes stuttering when speaking except when using simple expressions, and somewhat spastic, but not really jerking. His body moments are twitchy but well controlled. He has lived on his own for I guess forty years (we are both 61), dives, has a pilot and is a member of the civil aviation patrol. I still today this day cannot believe he has a pilot license ! I looked up to the conditions you mentioned: 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_post-traumatic_stress_disorder

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy

Can you provide as details of your life in two separate posts. The first what you can do on your own if you had two such as drive and cook. The second that you need help with period. My friend, call him John, abilities to cope are amazing. Mostly he can do anything for himself just very slowly and with care. I know it is very frustrating for him for speaking since he is usually one of the brightest persons in the room. 

You C-PTSD what happened?


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Thanks for your post, EllaSuaveterre

There is another word, that is kind of like "forgiveness" thats in the video below (I don't have time to find the spot) - which I recommend people to watch, even those who are not having problems in their marriage.






We're justing entering 8 months into R... and any support she gives me, is welcomed. I don't want fake support from her. Honesty and love. Trust is hard thing to get back, but its nice to have it. Just today, I drove by her work to drop off something and almost forgot to get her phone. Taking it to the carrier store to have them look at a warranty repair. I didn't even peak to see whats in the phone.

I'm honest with her, that she doesn't have my 100% trust. I'd put it in the 90s... and if things continue to go well - she'll earn 99.99999% of my trust. I love her tremendously. I hope we are doing better and together 10, 15, 20+ years from now.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

I have the book "not just friends" - I even bought my wayward her own copy, its an excellent book - an important tool to save my relationship. He should read it too. And opening himself up to you, can strength your bond.

I am far better sharing myself with my wayward today than I have in since we've been together. And yet, I still feel I cannot completely express myself 100% completely - I simply don't know how.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

JohnA said:


> You have a lot on your plate. I have a life long friend with CP. His is severe. It includes stuttering when speaking except when using simple expressions, and somewhat spastic, but not really jerking. His body moments are twitchy but well controlled. He has lived on his own for I guess forty years (we are both 61), dives, has a pilot and is a member of the civil aviation patrol. I still today this day cannot believe he has a pilot license ! I looked up to the conditions you mentioned:
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_post-traumatic_stress_disorder
> 
> ...


Okay, the first post: Things I can do...


I can sing. I'm actually a fairly good singer, almost able to keep up with my non-disabled peers in my music school, and I was planning on being the world's first opera singer with cerebral palsy, had I not suffered a vocal injury in 2015 and decided I'd be more likely to succeed as a writing major.

I can speak, though that's made obvious by the fact that I can sing.
I can dress myself. 
I can walk short to moderate distances. If I pace myself I can walk down the block.
I can manage chores that don't require a terrible lot of elbow grease, like laundry and loading and unloading the dishwasher. 
I can vacuum, though I often find it physically draining. 
If I put my mind to it and actually know where to put things, I can straighten the house.
I can dust things.
I can sometimes get down the stairs on my own. 
I can swim very short distances.
I can manage my own emotional storms for short periods, as in a couple days at a stretch, something I could not do last year.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

May I ask what the tears are really for?

We all deserve self-love... it's the greatest gift we can give ourselves.

Out of that self-love comes forgiveness... because the truth is we are all a little bit broken.

You hold yourself wonderfully accountable and you have learned... never to make such a mistake again.

How you should be, what you should think, how you should atone... none of this is scripted, we are what we are and we navigate the path the best we can.

What is even more wonderful is your husband, his love is not just words... he shows you he believes in his love for you.

We spend too much time mourning our flaws instead of celebrating our lessons...


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Second post:

I cannot drive.
I cannot cook.
I cannot run, or if I do I look like a dying chicken.
I cannot do household chores that require a ton of physical exertion, like scrubbing the bathtub.
I cannot (very easily) handle going up or down flights of stairs whilst carrying something; I must have both hands free to hold on to the railing.
I cannot for the life of me figure out how to handle day-to-day life without being some shade of horrified of it.


As to the c-ptsd: I had panic attacks since I was 3 or 4 but no one knows why. I had severe separation anxiety which more or less settled down as I got older. between the ages of about 6 and 10 I was a happy, outgoing kid. Then at 10 I had a major leg surgery. The night before said surgery I had my first major panic attack. I vomited multiple times and developed a very high fever, but the doctors could find no actual pathogens so I went into the OR anyway. 

After I got out of surgery, they had broken my legs at the hips and done something to 9 different muscle groups, and the pain was so intense that enough morphine to knock out someone half again my size wouldn't touch the pain. After I got home, I had an allergic reaction to the baclofen they gave me, which made my heart race and triggered more panic attacks. I then developed panic disorder. I don't remember most of my middle school years. I don't know how I managed to learn anything at all during that time, but I did because I wound up in high school 3 years later. 

I began regaining my long-term memory around the age of 14. I began to calm down, have less panic attacks, and mellow out. I met Mr. Suaveterre at 15, started dating him at 16, married him at 18.

In the year 2014, at the age of 21, having been married 3 years, I met the OM. I fell in "love" with him for reasons I no longer remember, then I became convinced my husband was going to leave me. OM became increasingly controlling and making veiled threats along the lines of, "Someday something horrible is going to happen to you and you're going to know it was because you didn't listen to me." I remember the OM made ME buy a ring symbolizing my loyalty to him. I was afraid to upset OM, and I upset him a LOT. I remember pleading with him every single night not to hate me. One day, a Tuesday, he announced he had bought me first-class plane tickets to come and live with him. I was to get on the plane on Sunday or else. I didn't want to get on the plane, but I didn't know how to tell my husband or my parents I was so in over my head. I began having multiple panic attacks a day again. I stopped eating and sleeping. I believed the OM was going to kill me if I met him in person, but I believed I deserved to die for cheating on my husband.

That Friday, my mother came over, unlocked the door and found me in a terrible state. She demanded to know what was the matter with me, so I made her promise not to tell my husband or my father, and I told her everything. She took me to the mental hospital, where, a few days later, I told my husband of my infidelity. I remained in the hospital's intensive outpatient program for 6 weeks, and had IC twice a week afterwards for 3 months. 

I'm still in IC- every other week- and I still get panicky, visceral reactions to seeing certain things that remind me of the OM. I have had nightmares and flashbacks and intrusive memories about the surgery and about the OM since 2014.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

You were horribly taken advantage of... would it help to move counseling to weekly?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> You were horribly taken advantage of... would it help to move counseling to weekly?


I'll consider it, yes... especially since school's getting out in a week and I'll be alone in the house all day with Mr. Suaveterre at work. I've been learning in therapy how to relax whilst alone, and when I can manage it I really enjoy it, but things have had a pattern of falling apart a little bit when I don't have anything to do all day.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@TaDor: I've watched the video.

"Just compensation".

1) Get rid of the [email protected] OM. Done. I broke contact for good and all in November 2014.
2) Expect a period of Withdrawal from the wayward spouse for a period of 3 to 6 months. Yes, that happened. I don't think I showed it much, but that did happen.
3)Work really hard at restoring emotional intimacy for 2 years. Hmm, this hasn't happened yet. I'd say I've been working REALLY hard at it and REALLY getting it for about 4-5 months. I've been putting more, and more constant, effort into falling in love with Mr. Suaveterre for since 2015 or so, but I have only understood the gravity of what I have done to him and acted accordingly for about 4-5 months. 


The OM was an abusive pr*ck and I seriously do not know what I ever saw in him. I am not at all concerned I'd ever run into his arms again. If I ever saw him in real life, I'd either throw up or shoot him.

Yet there are still men in my life to whom I'm not biologically related for whom I feel very strongly. They have provided for me emotionally for over a decade!! I've been having comforting male guardian figures since I was 14!! Maybe even before that!

I'm very afraid that Mr. Suaveterre will not be able to give me the same level of emotional intimacy that we both allowed people like Simon and Brandur and Azron (heck, Azron was my guardian/father-figure even when Mr. Suaveterre and I were DATING!!) to give me. I know it is unwise to expect perfection from him, but as I said earlier, I WANT it to be him, not anyone else! Is that unreasonable? Maybe. Is it a good plan to keep allowing male guardian-figures for whom I have a daughterly but very strong attachment to provide for me emotionally? Right now, I kinda doubt that...


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I just spent some time Skyping with one of the very few women I'm close to. She said she agrees with Mr. Suaveterre. I'd sooner walk on the ceiling than desire to elope with any of my guy friends.

One more point on the side of "Keep My Friendships."

Why must this be so complicated?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

The truth is, right now, I just want my BH to be there for me in a way he may or may not be capable of. 

I love him so much. We already share so much together. He was my first kiss, my first time, my first real love. We're intimate in ways that _don't_ have to do with my emotional maelstroms. We cuddle, we have about 100 inside jokes, we even have a sort of secret language. He bought me an enormous pink fluffy bed and he put it in our _living room_ because he knows I love soft, pink things. I don't know how he even kept it a secret that Christmas. 

And all I want right now is for him to be my knight in shining armor, my emotional anchor. I've never actually made him do that before... I've needed it and wanted it from him, sure, but I settled for my friends. And whether my friendships are inappropriate or not, the fact stands that I want _him_, not them, to be there for me. 

I'm so sad.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I am posting like a madwoman, but the stream-of-consciousnesses rather helps. I should probably take this to another thread or something. I'm distraught and I hate the stupid world and I barely know why it's hit me all of the sudden like this, especially when a huge part of me feels I have no right to emotions in the first place considering what I have done. I must be having some form of depressive episode. I think in a moment I'll curl up next to my husband and try to sleep a little. At least I'm still on top of my academics so far. That's one thing I have left. And at least my BH seems happy and at peace. That's another. Meanwhile there's a very loud voice in the back of my head telling me I have no right to wish anything of my BH because he's already giving me so much just by virtue of keeping me around. It's not wrong at all. What am I doing? What am I thinking? Why? Just ugh.


Reach Across the Great Divide
See the war behind your eyes
Finally slow the racing clock
Try so hard to make it stop

No more throwing stones tonight
This glass house can't take the fight
Help me calm this hurricane
Before this moment slips away

Are you listening?
Are you listening?
Are you listening?

Don't look away.
Hear me say:

I need you now
I need you _now!_
I need _you_ now!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> My husband isn't really a "forum" type of person. He doesn't share his thoughts readily with anyone. I'm the closest he's ever been with anyone, and even I sometimes feel like I have no idea what he's thinking or feeling. If he asked to read any of my Forum posts, I'd let him without hesitation.
> 
> I would tell him that I want him to read my posts, but I don't want to stress him out by forcing him to read my most secret thoughts, especially as we played "the and" yesterday, so we had a lot of emotional intimacy already- at least by his standards. I'm afraid of hurting him or wearing him out.


He does not seem fragile, Ella. I would not nurse those worries.

Continue to be as transparent as you can be. 

It really would be good for him to read your threads. I think it would be wise of him to not only listen to your heartfelt outpourings here, but to hear the advice you are getting, too. He can tell you if it is worth listening to or not.

Not all men are devastated by a wife's affair, Ella. Not every man expects his wife to heal him. Each man has his own reaction. Listen to your man.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Ugh, really struggling with the self-worth aspect right now. I just responded to a thread about whether waywards are bad people.
> 
> My husband is sleeping next to me and if he weren't so sleepy I'd hug the daylights out of him, feel his body against mine, breathe him in...
> 
> ...


Ella, of course waywards are not, as a group, bad people. Some waywards, like some betrayeds, are bad people.

You are a very sweet and impressionable young woman. Please do not take other people's pain into your soul and convict yourself with it. 

Again, I think your husband's guidance would be helpful here.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I just got back from therapy. My therapist said, in a nutshell, that the kind of emotional support I expect from my male friends is not something I should expect day in and day out from any human being, my spouse included. She said that I should learn how to get my emotional needs met by leaning on my friends a _little_, leaning on my husband a little _more_, and learning how to self-soothe. All good things.

She made a very profound point that I expected and wanted Simon to be my emotional life support for months and months, and now, Simon is gone. I haven't seen him since about June. She said that most human beings- even trained professionals- just don't have it in them to pour emotional fluff into people for hours on end, for weeks at a time. She said my husband is a lot more emotionally balanced than Simon was, which is true. She theorizes that Mr. Suaveterre is not likely to leave, isn't likely to get burnt out because he is so much more temperate and balanced in the way he handles my emotions. It's that balance, the fact that he _doesn't_ pour emotional fluff into me for hours and days and weeks at a time, that makes him unlikely to leave, unlikely to burn out, unlikely to have a revenge affair or otherwise take his exhaustion out on me.

My therapist said I "Accidentally stumbled into the best relationship I could have gotten" by meeting Mr. Suaveterre. I agree. 

As soon as I got out of the session, I texted him.

Me: I just got out of therapy. My therapist says you're not Simon, but you are the person I need more than Simon. I agree 100%. She also said you probably weren't going to leave me, that you'll still be here 10 years from now.

Him: Of course I will be.

Me: I love you, my treasure. Thank you.

Him: I love you too.

Me: <3<3<3


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

He surprised me tonight with a trip through a local garden, one which was decorated with Christmas lights. There must have literally been millions of lights. It was so cold I thought I might have gotten frostbite, but I wasn't uncomfortable at all; as the song says, I had my Love to keep me warm. 

It was so beautiful. We kissed under arches and in gazebos and tunnels lit with thousands of lights. We listened to Christmas music and shared hot cocoa and stared at the moon and watched the ducks swimming in the pond. We planned out our date night for next week. I told him I looked forward to the coming of spring and all the flowering gardens we'd walk through then too. I was happy, enjoying the moment and fantasizing about all the future moments to come. 

When we get home, I'll make us both some tea- white chocolate peppermint for me, and simple PG tips for him- and we will cuddle up in the spare bed together.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I've continued reading, "Not just friends". I bought the e-book for myself after downloading the audiobook. I find it informative and intriguing, and I want Mr. Suaveterre to read it with me. Tomorrow, since it's my day to decide what we do together, I'm going to suggest we read or listen to the first couple chapters of "Not Just Friends" together. I feel like reading it might help him understand how much emotional intimacy and comfort means to me. 

I'm also afraid it might hurt him. I've been realizing more and more that I have historically depended on (some of) my male friends when I should have depended on my husband. This means two things: That my husband has not made it very easy for me to unload my bottomless pit of sorrows onto him, (which isn't his fault as such; he's never cruel and he tries to be caring and even romantic. He's just not... fluffy.) and that I could very well have hurt him with my friendship with Simon without even knowing it. 

How am I ever going to sleep tonight when Mr. Suaveterre and I have so much to talk about tomorrow?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

@EllaSuaveterre, have you ever heard of DD/lg? i ask because you and your husband seem to already be living the dynamic. your personalities seem to fit the profile to a T.

to be honest, i was a bit hesitant to post this and bring it up because people can be quite judgmental, but, whatever. I am beyond caring if people judge me at this point.

My wife ( @Akinaura ) and I live a DD/lg lifestyle and dynamic. like you, akinaura has struggled with self worth. like you, she has had tremendous issues with shame over her past infidelity. and like your husband, i really just want to see my wife happy and leave all the pain behind. 

the thing is, my wife made a mistake back when she should have known better but didnt. i am not hurt by that now. i know that she was ignorant of how it would affect her and myself, but she is not ignorant anymore. i know that she would not willingly live that kind of shame again. but, i love her dearly. i mean, fiercely. 

i am willing to bet that your husband absolutely adores all of your silliness. the soft pink things you love, your big heart that seems to constantly want to burst... i can just about guarantee you that if saw what he felt for you, you would cry.

Akinaura is not perfect, i know that. and i am sure your husband knows that you are not perfect either. but, i love akinaura more deeply than i can say. im willing to bet that your husband finds you to be every bit as precious to him as akinaura is to me. 

i love the struggles with her. i love the wonder i see in her eyes. i love the child like delight and joy she exudes with all things Disney. 

please, do NOT assume that you are not good enough for him. if you adore him the way your words seem to indicate, you are probably making his life a dream come true.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

My hubby (@As'ladain) nudged me towards this thread, said I should read it. He was right.

Hunny, without a doubt in my mind, I totally "get" you. You made a mistake, and now believe you have to crucifi yourself because of it...because I mean, how could you or I do this to an absolutely wonderful guy? It wasn't how we were raised, didn't realise what we were doing at the time, and when our eyes were opened, we felt the crushing weight of guilt.

So do me a favor: relax. You are where I was up until a few weeks ago, so I know how you are so conflicted. After years of feeling one way, it takes time to change those emotions. You play the question game for your own reassurance...not his. Have you ever thought to go to him, hug him, and just say "I need cuddles." If he's as you describe, he'll be internally thrilled you are seeking him out for emotional comfort.

I get it, it ain't easy, but you can pm any time if you want to talk.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

You are quite right, that the game is more for my own reassurance than it is his, as is the idea of listening with him to "Not Just Friends"- to which he actually agreed, to my surprise. Still it is not without the hope and prayer that my attentiveness to the marriage and desire to self-correct won't also help my dearest Mr. Suaveterre as well. 

Also, I'm rather amazed you figured out I'm a Little. Though I don't call my husband Daddy, he is in many ways my caregiver, and I his grateful and devoted charge. I showed him your posts and he agreed with me that it was adorable.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I posted this in my other "Love Dare" thread, but I thought it should go here too, for it follows the same mental line as I've been going on lately, about self-love and self-worth.



EllaSuaveterre said:


> _Day 6- Choose today to react to tough circumstances in your marriage in loving ways instead of with irritation. Begin by making a list of areas where you need to add margin to your schedule. Then list any wrong motivations that you need to release from your life._
> 
> 
> 1.) I need to be more committed to taking my meds every day. I often forget which leaves me feeling physically and mentally miserable, and therefore more vulnerable. On days when I'm REALLY badly off, it doesn't matter how much nurturing someone pours into me; I will be inconsolable. That's really bad for me and even worse for anyone who takes it upon themselves to be near me.
> ...


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

so, i used to hate people. as far as i could tell, they just used each other. in fact, i was so certain of this that i was convinced that i could see how they were trying to use me, all the time. their attempts seemed so pathetic and obvious... 

i used to pretty much just avoid people. when i thought they were trying to get something from me, which was all the time, i would often toy with them like a cat plays with a mouse. i thought they were stupid to attempt to play those games with me while still trying to convince themselves that they don't play them. while still trying to convince themselves that the whole world doesn't play them. basically, i looked down on them for being so stupid that they actually believed that there was something inherently wrong in doing the same thing as everyone else in the world. everyone used each other, everyone prayed on each other, and if they were so stupid as to believe the lie that they don't, then they deserved to get whatever was coming to them. i mean, who would compete with someone while handicapping themselves? they either had to be incredibly stupid, or incredibly ****y. either way, they deserved to be beaten at their own games.

like i said, i used to hate people. myself included. in a world of people who do nothing but use each other for their own amusement and toy with them, i was the best. the only thing i was really good at was hating people. THAT was who i chose to be. think i loved myself? HA! i thought that it was normal to hate everything about the world. so i chose to be the same as the people i hated. i just wanted to be better at it than everyone else. 

well, tragedy struck and shattered that view. i realized just how inconsequential i was to everyone around me. i couldn't even let a doctor know that i was still alive! they couldn't hear me. i didn't exist. the only thing they saw was a dead man. they were so certain, and i was so confused. when i realized that the doctor was saying that i was dead, it shocked me. i didn't exist to him. imagine that? all my life i thought people were scheming around me constantly, and here i found myself, nonexistent. 

i wont go into the rest of the details of that event, it wouldn't matter anyway. the bottom line is, i realized that the only person judging me on the inside was me. the only thing the world sees is my actions. they dont see my thoughts or emotions. those parts of me dont exist to them. the only part that is real to them is everything on the outside. the parts that i always called fake. 

think about that... the real me, to every person on the planet except for myself, was defined by what i did and said. but, i can control that... i can control what i do. what i say. how i act. etc.

i used to hate people primarily because i chose to be the kind of person that i hate, and assumed that everyone else was like me. nowadays, i choose to be someone that i love. or, rather, i choose to be the kind of person who i would love. that was when i started to realize that there is a difference between what i am and who i am. 

the what is merely an aware entity. the who is defined by my actions, my choices. so, if i want to be a terrible person, i can start right now and start doing terrible things. if i want to be a great person, i can start right now and do great things. i can be anyone. and since i can choose to do whatever i want at any given second, i can change who i am at any given second. 

in fact, once i realized that, it was the first time i really decided WHO i was going to be. i chose to be someone that i would love. and the kind of person i would love would let go of the old terrible self. forgive? of course. but, that person is dead. i let him die. 

EllaSuaveterre, your worth lies in your potential. you are an aware entity capable of love and decision. you literally have the power to be anyone, any time you choose. that means you have unlimited potential. THAT is what your worth is. 

as for self love, just choose to be someone that you love. don't worry about how you feel, just be that person anyway, through your actions. your emotions are feelings. they come and go. your decisions can never be taken from you.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Quick bullet response (my time is short today)

1 - That OM would have abused you, I doubt he would have killed you (who knows) as there is an electronic trail between you two - but who knows where you would have ended up and he said "she left to go home, last I heard from her". There are people like that who prey on girls and young women.

2 - Hopefully your husband will open up a bit more (it seems to me). By reading some books, including "His Needs, Her Needs" can give him insight. As you and another poster were kind of responding to each other about... If my wife could have looked into my heart, my head before and during the affair - she wouldn't have done it or break us up. She would have known how much she did mean to me, and how much pain she was causing. (Yeah, we are back together) Even thou she herself was betrayed by a boyfriend about a year or so before we met - the affair fog did a number on her.

3 - She also suffered from "self worth" - that she wasn't good enough, as we found out after months of MC together. What she thought how I thought of her was very wrong. But that was miscommunication between the two of us. She's 31, I'm 46. You and your husband are in your 20s... so I feel that you both have some communications to learn about.

There are always going to be good days and bad in marriage. The love connection between couples will go up and down in waves.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

So OP, explain to me because I can be dense...

The OM and you never actually met up to have sex correct? Yet you say he was abusing you. Abusing you in his e-mails? Verbally (in this case in writing)? Were you talking on the phone to him or Skyping at all? I guess I don't understand the nature of your interactions with him...


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> So OP, explain to me because I can be dense...
> 
> The OM and you never actually met up to have sex correct? Yet you say he was abusing you. Abusing you in his e-mails? Verbally (in this case in writing)? Were you talking on the phone to him or Skyping at all? I guess I don't understand the nature of your interactions with him...


Yes, our interactions were on facebook, via Skype and phone. All the abuse was purely of an emotional and psychological nature. He never told me directly to do something, he would say something like, "You know, I've always liked a girl who ___." Or, "If you're not even willing to do ___, why should I waste my time with someone who doesn't even care about me?" Or, "don't even tell me you're the sort of person who likes ___. I know that's not who you really are."

When I called him for the last time and told him I was going NC and that if he called again I'd call the police, he said he couldn't stand how _I_ was manipulating _HIM_ and breaking his heart. *vomit*.

He did manage to persuade me into some things, like wearing a ring with certain Pagan symbols as an artifact of fidelity to him, or styling my hair in a way he liked. He never coaxed me into sex acts, or into showing myself to him, thank God. Though, he tried many, many times. I know the lack of sexual contact doesn't exactly make my infidelity any less horrific, but I think the self-loathing would be 1000x worse.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

My dear Mr. Suaveterre and I listened to the first couple chapters of "Not Just Friends". I told him I was grateful he decided to listen. He said he found it informative and fascinating, as did I. 

He didn't say he wanted to listen to the other chapters, but he didn't say he _didn't_ want to, either. When I asked how he'd feel about continuing over the next couple weeks, he said, "It won't take weeks, will it?" It was fourteen hours of audio so I said it might. Then he rolled over and went to sleep. Poor tired darling. I think I'll probably ask him if he wants to continue in a couple days, once he's had a bit of an emotional break.

Another bit of good news. Today he said, "I love you, and I'll never leave you, and I'll always be here for you."

I was delighted and nuzzled him repeatedly.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I've continued reading, "Not just friends". I bought the e-book for myself after downloading the audiobook. I find it informative and intriguing, and I want Mr. Suaveterre to read it with me. Tomorrow, since it's my day to decide what we do together, I'm going to suggest we read or listen to the first couple chapters of "Not Just Friends" together. I feel like reading it might help him understand how much emotional intimacy and comfort means to me.
> 
> I'm also afraid it might hurt him. I've been realizing more and more that I have historically depended on (some of) my male friends when I should have depended on my husband. This means two things: That my husband has not made it very easy for me to unload my bottomless pit of sorrows onto him, (which isn't his fault as such; he's never cruel and he tries to be caring and even romantic. He's just not... fluffy.) and that I could very well have hurt him with my friendship with Simon without even knowing it.
> 
> How am I ever going to sleep tonight when Mr. Suaveterre and I have so much to talk about tomorrow?


Ella I am proud of you, I admire how hard you are working. You said in another post that you biggest motivation is fear, why don't you start to slowly tackle some of those fears. Maybe this will help you be not so dependent on your husband, which even your IC said was too much for anyone. Do you think if maybe you were not so afraid of being without help that maybe your relationship would be a little easier for you. Like maybe you wouldn't operate of of a place of fear there as well, as you said this fear was the primary motivator for your affair. I sense some fear in you thinking that if your husband doesn't fulfill all of your needs maybe something is wrong, or maybe these needs will never be met. Maybe some, just SOME of these needs, need to be fulfilled from inside of yourself.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Yes, our interactions were on facebook, via Skype and phone. All the abuse was purely of an emotional and psychological nature. He never told me directly to do something, he would say something like, "You know, I've always liked a girl who ___." Or, "If you're not even willing to do ___, why should I waste my time with someone who doesn't even care about me?" Or, "don't even tell me you're the sort of person who likes ___. I know that's not who you really are."
> 
> When I called him for the last time and told him I was going NC and that if he called again I'd call the police, he said he couldn't stand how _I_ was manipulating _HIM_ and breaking his heart. *vomit*.
> 
> He did manage to persuade me into some things, like wearing a ring with certain Pagan symbols as an artifact of fidelity to him, or styling my hair in a way he liked. He never coaxed me into sex acts, or into showing myself to him, thank God. Though, he tried many, many times. I know the lack of sexual contact doesn't exactly make my infidelity any less horrific, but I think the self-loathing would be 1000x worse.


Wow that's pretty wild. Pretty scary too. I'm surprised it did not go sexual, but he seemed to get off on his control over you.


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## Hope Shimmers (Jul 10, 2015)

Hi Ella, I have previously read your other threads on SI and LS. Particularly where LS is concerned, it seems you have integrated some of the criticisms you received there, into your posts here. 

I will admit - I had a hard time believing all of this, at least as you posted on other forums. I remember you posted something about how you and your husband dressed up as a princess and prince (something like that) to play a particular video game together. It just seemed to me like nothing that adults would actually do. 

So, I hope that all is well and good with you and your H. You seem extremely literate and an excellent writer, and you also have extensive knowledge in some ways about life for someone who is 23 years old. That makes it hard to put your chronological age with your emotional age and have it be believable. It is still very difficult for me to accept that your emotional age is as you say. I really see otherwise in your posts. I mean, I see it on the surface, but that's all.

But, I wish you and your husband the best.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Hope Shimmers said:


> Hi Ella, I have previously read your other threads on SI and LS. Particularly where LS is concerned, it seems you have integrated some of the criticisms you received there, into your posts here.
> 
> I will admit - I had a hard time believing all of this, at least as you posted on other forums. I remember you posted something about how you and your husband dressed up as a princess and prince (something like that) to play a particular video game together. It just seemed to me like nothing that adults would actually do.
> 
> ...


I get that a lot. I was banned from LS for having a story no one believed. They called it trolling. I was telling the truth. If that happens here too I will cry so hard, you have no idea.

As previous posters have noted, I am a "little". This means that I regress in age as a coping mechanism, much like some trauma survivors, except I do it consciously and maintain my memory and awareness whilst I do so. My husband seems to enjoy this innocence and will encourage it. He loves watching certain shows with me that I find calming, that are directed at a very young audience. 

I never learned as a child how to wash a dish or use a credit card or prepare macaroni or drive or anything else adolescents learn about the world. My parents looked after me, provided for ALL of my needs. I had no friends to speak of. I didn't want them. Social interaction with people my own age was terrifying. 

At the same time, the very same FOO environment that discouraged any kind of personal growth and independence was the one that gave me my emotional insight. Despite my disabilities I have never been unintelligent. I have an IQ of 143. I was tested by a psychiatric institute (I think it was anyway- someone wanted to know whether I was mentally handicapped when my family moved and I had to join a new school district. I'm not sure who they get to administer IQ tests) when I was 7. I was a sick kid. In between psych appointments and trips out of state for surgeries and tests and rehabilitation, I stayed in my room all day and read books. Romance novels and fantasies, mostly. If there's anything I (believe I) know worlds more about than the average person, it's the inner workings of an emotional mind. I learned through my books how people react when they fall in love, what heartbreak feels like, how people are supposed to console one another when they are upset, and EXACTLY the right words to say to encourage a person to fall in love with you. 

At an age when other people were developing their personalities by going to parties with kids their age and having first crushes, I was molding a personality out of pieces of stories. I was combining all of my favorite parts of my favorite romance novel heroines and teaching myself to type like they spoke. I figured my best chance at having a good life was to marry someone like the men I'd read about in my books. Someone who was reluctant at first, but who would eventually come around after enough grand romantic gestures.

I didn't want or need to deal with high schoolers. I didn't understand teenagers my own age. They were like aliens to me. What I wanted, all I wanted, was my own personal Romeo. I was going to look for a husband who would provide for me and protect me for eternity and ask for nothing in return except perpetual grand romantic gestures and an ardor that blurred the line between love and outright worship. 

Long story short, I did. 

Since then, there have been a lot of disappointing moments where life didn't match my expectations (like the whole words of affirmation thing) and left me on the floor wondering what in the gods' names I'd done with my life, but I'm STILL a firm believer that enough talking, peppered with grand romantic gestures and thrilling dates, can fix anything.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Ella I am proud of you, I admire how hard you are working. You said in another post that you biggest motivation is fear, why don't you start to slowly tackle some of those fears. Maybe this will help you be not so dependent on your husband, which even your IC said was too much for anyone. Do you think if maybe you were not so afraid of being without help that maybe your relationship would be a little easier for you. Like maybe you wouldn't operate of of a place of fear there as well, as you said this fear was the primary motivator for your affair. I sense some fear in you thinking that if your husband doesn't fulfill all of your needs maybe something is wrong, or maybe these needs will never be met. Maybe some, just SOME of these needs, need to be fulfilled from inside of yourself.


I'd like to, but I truly wouldn't know where or how to even begin. Would it start with expanding my comfort zone as far as places in which I feel safe being on my own? And how could I fulfill my own emotional needs? I do enjoy setting aside time to pamper myself, and I do this rather embarrassing thing at night where I close my eyes and imagine someone is telling me the soothing things I need to hear. That's all I know about self-care.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I'd like to, but I truly wouldn't know where or how to even begin. Would it start with expanding my comfort zone as far as places in which I feel safe being on my own? And how could I fulfill my own emotional needs? I do enjoy setting aside time to pamper myself, and I do this rather embarrassing thing at night where I close my eyes and imagine someone is telling me the soothing things I need to hear. That's all I know about self-care.


I wonder if there are groups for people who suffer from what you do. Maybe meeting with others with the same condition. I don't necessarily mean physical either, but some of your anxieties. How about joining a group like that. Also you say you don't know how to cook stuff like that, how about asking your husband to help teach you. That might be a nice bonding activity. I wonder if some of your fear about being able to take care of yourself would be minimized if you knew you could take care of yourself. Then you could operate in the relationship without feeling this intense fear that if something is wrong you are going to end up alone and unable to survive.

You may want to look into social services there may be some places you can go or classes you can take to learn life skills. Or maybe someone can even come to your house and teach you.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Since then, there have been a lot of disappointing moments where life didn't match my expectations (like the whole words of affirmation thing) and left me on the floor wondering what in the gods' names I'd done with my life, but I'm STILL a firm believer that enough talking, peppered with grand romantic gestures and thrilling dates, can fix anything.


Also life is never going to be Disney all the time. No man or person will ever to be able to live up to that. Remember Disney though fun is not real. That doesn't mean that your husband can't be romantic but you also have to taper your expectation if you want him to live up to say Prince Charming. Just like you can't talk to singing birds you can't expect him to kiss you and wake you up from a spell.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Also life is never going to be Disney all the time. No man or person will ever to be able to live up to that. Remember Disney though fun is not real. That doesn't mean that your husband can't be romantic but you also have to taper your expectation if you want him to live up to say Prince Charming. Just like you can't talk to singing birds you can't expect him to kiss you and wake you up from a spell.


You're not wrong. There's romance, and there's the extreme kind of romance that people read about. I think I'm willing to settle for mostly the former and some of the latter.

Settling for entirely the former feels like... well...settling.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> You're not wrong. There's romance, and there's the extreme kind of romance that people read about. I think I'm willing to settle for mostly the former and some of the latter.
> 
> Settling for entirely the former feels like... well...settling.


Instead of thinking if it like I am settling, think of it like this, romance is the ice cream of relationships right? So how much greater is love when sometimes you have to eat vegetables too. See what I am saying it easy to eat dinner if all it was was ice cream. You and your husband love each other even though life isn't always ice cream. You love each other even though a lot of the times it's just eating the vegetables. When you are both eating the vegetables even when you aren't really enjoying them but you both still eat them because you know sooner or later there will be ice-cream again, then you know you have real deep love. That is a lasting love that makes for a good marriage. 

Your husband loves you even though you guys have been through some bad times, even though he was hurt real bad. He must really love you Ella, if you read any of my posts you know I say all the time I couldn't do that. I don't have it in me. He loves you enough to stay. Honestly want could be more of an grand romantic gesture then that.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

sokillme said:


> Your husband loves you even though you guys have been through some bad times, even though he was hurt real bad. He must really love you Ella, if you read any of my posts you know I say all the time I couldn't do that. I don't have it in me. He loves you enough to stay. Honestly want could be more of an grand romantic gesture then that.


Indeed!! You have an excellent point! I have begun to cope in a small way with the lack of ballgowns and fairytales by expanding my view of what a grand romantic gesture is. For example, I had a stomach virus over thanksgiving, and it was quite touching that he stayed there in the room with me- even though I begged him to leave because I didn't want him getting sick or seeing me in such a state- and got me whatever I asked for when I was too weak to move, and he actually WAS verbally reassuring in EXACTLY the right ways ("I know it sucks. I'm sorry you're sick. You're going to be alright. It's okay.") while I had my head in a bucket, sobbing because my whole body ached from throwing up every 15 minutes.

He showed no sign of being disgusted, even though I was humiliated and I had never felt so disgusting or unattractive in my life. That was such a display of compassion and sweetness, even though the scene was anything but pretty. I have a serious phobia of vomiting that contributed to most of my panic attacks in my middle school years, so he knew I was not only physically sick but also having flashbacks from hell, and he took it upon himself to give me 100% of what I needed for the next 3 days.

I truly don't know where he found it in him.

And I always, always, always, compliment him and hold him and tell him how much he means to me when I catch him doing ANYthing for me, whether he's just smiling at me, or taking out the trash for me, or agreeing to read a book I wanted us to read together even though the emotional topic is probably hard for him.

All things he's done just today, by the way.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Try branching out and having him teach you some of the things you don't know how to do, build up your stamina for it but see it as something you can do as a team. Let him help you be able to take care of yourself as an act of love. This will be good for both of you. 

Finally remember if all you ever wear is ballgowns, eventually ballgowns become your day clothes.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I could try. I've cooked things with him before, and he once taught me how to fold his shirts. 

Tomorrow is his day to choose what we do, so we'll probably end up going out to eat, but if we don't, I could ask him if he'd allow me to cook him dinner. Most of his usual favorite meal can be prepared in the microwave, which would be well within my realm of capability. Or he could help me make sweet and sour chicken- another favorite- on the stovetop. One thing is really live to learn to make would be a grilled cheese sandwich. He doesn't like them, but I do, and it would be lovely to know how to make them.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Try branching out and having him teach you some of the things you don't know how to do, build up your stamina for it but see it as something you can do as a team. Let him help you be able to take care of yourself as an act of love. This will be good for both of you.
> 
> Finally remember if all you ever wear is ballgowns, eventually ballgowns become your day clothes.


the above actually fits quite well into the CG/l dynamic. 


i used to do a lot of this with Akinaura, when she was still suffering social anxiety so severely that she couldnt go shopping. 

part of loving akinaura is wanting her to be able to grow and be able to take care of herself. so that she doesnt have the anxiety, so that she knows that she is safe, regardless of what happens to me. i dont know what your husband does for a living Ella, my job is kinda dangerous. i want akinaura to be able to take care of herself if i die. 

she has blossomed in incredible ways. its amazing to see her gain more and more boldness, and see her go out into the world with wonder in the place where fear used to be.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I could try. I've cooked things with him before, and he once taught me how to fold his shirts.
> 
> Tomorrow is his day to choose what we do, so we'll probably end up going out to eat, but if we don't, I could ask him if he'd allow me to cook him dinner. Most of his usual favorite meal can be prepared in the microwave, which would be well within my realm of capability. Or he could help me make sweet and sour chicken- another favorite- on the stovetop. One thing is really live to learn to make would be a grilled cheese sandwich. He doesn't like them, but I do, and it would be lovely to know how to make them.


ask him if he would be willing to help you learn how to make them. even if he doesnt make them, just find some online instructions and follow them. 

i myself had never made a grilled cheese sandwich until the day after i turned 30. i burnt the first one on one side, and the rest came out just fine. 

if you're anxious about it, ask your husband to be there just to make sure nothing goes wrong.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I surprised my husband by visiting him at his work's Christmas party! He hugged me and kissed me, and afterwards when I went to see his new office, I noticed he had two pictures of me at his desk, and one of us. The one of both of us was in the picture frame I'd bought him for our anniversary. He had a little plushie I had given him on his desk. He had no other mementos or pictures there, not even of his own family. Just of me, and us, and things I'd given him. I was so touched.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Oh my goodness. My darling Mr. Suaveterre has had a terrible day today. He woke up to find our printer was broken (so I'm getting him a new one for Christmas) and then that the local geese had soiled his car, and when he went to wash it, he noticed there was low air in the tires... and when he went to a service station to fill them, the car stopped working altogether. It was a corroded battery. My father came to his rescue and bought him a new battery, and he did get his car cleaned off, but we still have no printer. It must have been an AWFUL day for my darling. I feel so bad for him. My poor love.

The reason I know this is that when I awoke this morning, Mr. Suaveterre was not there. Of course my first thought was that, dear gods, he's having a revenge affair. So I call him and he recounts the above. I then called my parents, who told me the same story before I even asked, so it must have been true. Worry for myself has been replaced with worry for him. My poor angel. I intend to give him a back massage and a hot drink when he gets home.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

Ella, why did you assume he's having a revenge affair first? It's thoughts like that that are holding you back from growing as a person. If I awoke and my hubby wasn't there, I'd assume something happened to him, not that he's off having a revenge affair on me.

If you want to grow from the EA, to trust your husband, think first that something has come up, not a revenge affair. You have to stop punishing yourself, your husband has already forgiven you. You can make it up to him by being attentive, actively listening to what he says and to TRUST those words cause if he's anything like mine, his words and his actions line up to be the same.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

@akinaura True. Actually my fears that he'd be unfaithful and/or leave me have little to do with the A at all, and much more to do with the fact that I have low self-esteem and abandonment issues. I was paranoid he'd leave me even before we got married, due to the fact that I find it implausible that anyone would want to be with me for an extended period of time. My awareness of the psychology behind these thoughts unfortunately does not prevent them from being the first thing that I think of.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

why do you find it implausible that someone would want to be with you long term? because of your health issues?


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

As'laDain said:


> why do you find it implausible that someone would want to be with you long term? because of your health issues?


That, essentially. Mental health issues as well. I feel like I'm too much work, usually.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

Wow, you need to talk As'ladain...you're like my twin to a degree...it's like reading words I've said a million times to Asla...

Took some time, but I'm learning that I'm a major catch, warts/farts/and all. You'll get there...but it's gonna take you looking in the mirror and constantly telling yourself, you're worth it.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I guess I could try it. Looking into a mirror and saying what sounds like lies never seemed to be a very effective way to convince oneself of something, but I guess psychology recommends it for a reason. 

Meanwhile, Mr. Suaveterre said "I love you" first today. If you read my Love Dare posts (I'm gonna start merging this post and the Love Dare one I think. Just have to choose which post to start typing in from now on) I was really insecure because I thought he didn't say it often... but at least today, he did. I then gave him a 45-minute, full-body massage complete with lotion and ambient music

I'd have given him the massage anyway, but it was still so nice to hear him say he loves me!!


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

I had had a glass of pomegranate juice tonight, with a shot of vodka mixed in. Mr. Suaveterre was asleep on my pink bed. As I was beginning my second glass I was suddenly taken with grief. My friend Simon, who eight months ago was my best friend and the strongest brick in my emotional support system, was gone. 

Also, without going into too much detail, a combination of my proclivity to fear and paranoia, and articles and scholarly journals I've read at school have made me quite convinced I will die before I have the chance to grow old. Usually, these thoughts of the world ending frighten me, but tonight they just made me terribly sad and upset. I have slightly more information on the specifics on the politics subforum; it's not appropriate to go into great detail here. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/politics-religion/358346-beginning-end.html

Anyway, I was upset about the potential end of the world, and I missed my former friend, and I wanted Simon to comfort me. But Simon was gone. And Mr. Suaveterre was asleep. I sent a message to Simon, but I do not expect an answer. I don't expect him to ever be as compassionate as he once was, or to want to talk to me with any regularity. I do feel a little bit guilty about having contacted Simon, though I don't know why. Mr. Suaveterre does not mind my friendship with Simon-or any of my male friends- so long as I make plenty of time for him, too.

And I honestly don't know where I was going with this except to vent. I'm upset. I'm afraid. Tonight's just not a good night.

So I've taken my emergency sedatives and I'm starting to be a little less despairing and a little more able to see positives in the situation. For instance, I'm honestly quite amazed _every single night_ isn't this bad. I mean, if you thought the modern human world was literally ending, wouldn't you be a mess all the time? On the bright side- if it can be called that- I'm still capable of sometimes having good days, even in the face of what I consider an existential threat, not to even mention the less apocalyptic problems of guilt, shame, fear, and self-loathing.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> I had had a glass of pomegranate juice tonight, with a shot of vodka mixed in. Mr. Suaveterre was asleep on my pink bed. As I was beginning my second glass I was suddenly taken with grief. My friend Simon, who eight months ago was my best friend and the strongest brick in my emotional support system, was gone.
> 
> Also, without going into too much detail, a combination of my proclivity to fear and paranoia, and articles and scholarly journals I've read at school have made me quite convinced I will die before I have the chance to grow old. Usually, these thoughts of the world ending frighten me, but tonight they just made me terribly sad and upset. I have slightly more information on the specifics on the politics subforum; it's not appropriate to go into great detail here. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/politics-religion/358346-beginning-end.html
> 
> ...


watch these videos. or rather, listen to them.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

Thank you, @As'laDain. Between this and your PM about ecology, I actually have a somewhat hopeful view of the future today. 

Also, as a side note, this morning when I woke up, Mr. Suaveterre got up, came over to me, hugged me tight, and said "Good morning. I love you!" FIRST. <3 <3 <3

I nearly kissed his face off.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> *Thank you, @As'laDain. Between this and your PM about ecology, I actually have a somewhat hopeful view of the future today.*
> 
> Also, as a side note, this morning when I woke up, Mr. Suaveterre got up, came over to me, hugged me tight, and said "Good morning. I love you!" FIRST. <3 <3 <3
> 
> I nearly kissed his face off.


think about something... 
the only thing that changed was that you got a different perspective on it. the facts of the world are the same, but you feel different about it. this is what awareness is all about. 

and as for the second part...

:smthumbup::smthumbup::smthumbup:


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Ella have you looked into "love addiction"? In going back over your thread and your accounts of your growing years, I wonder if you may be afflicted with this. It is a real condition attributed to obsessive compulsive disorder, and is not just pseudo-psychology. Marilyn Monroe and Elizabeth Taylor were both love addicts, which is why they drifted from relationship to relationship, always looking for stability and security. 

Love addicts are addicted to the euphoric early stages of love, "romantic love" or "limerance", where all the feel-good brain chemicals (dopamine and seratonin) are flowing and give the person that wonderful, exciting rush of being "in love". Love addicts seem to lack an inability to advance and mature into the more steady and solid forms of "committed love" that are so essential to keeping any kind of long-term relationship alive. After a time, once the love chemicals wear off, familiarity sets in, and the love addict no longer feels that rush, they seek out a new person to "fall in love" with, just so they can get that fix...that high. Add to this a disinterested or lazy spouse, and it is a perfect storm waiting to erupt.

As you have shown us, you also definitely have an unrealistic idealization of love as expressed in music, movies and the written word. This is one of the hallmark flags of love addiction. 

Start looking into it an see if it may be something you need to visit with your therapist.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/healthy-connections/201012/how-break-the-pattern-love-addiction


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> Ella have you looked into "love addiction"? In going back over your thread and your accounts of your growing years, I wonder if you may be afflicted with this. It is a real condition attributed to obsessive compulsive disorder, and is not just pseudo-psychology. Marilyn Monroe and Elizabeth Taylor were both love addicts, which is why they drifted from relationship to relationship, always looking for stability and security.
> 
> Love addicts are addicted to the euphoric early stages of love, "romantic love" or "limerance", where all the feel-good brain chemicals (dopamine and seratonin) are flowing and give the person that wonderful, exciting rush of being "in love". Love addicts seem to lack an inability to advance and mature into the more steady and solid forms of "committed love" that are so essential to keeping any kind of long-term relationship alive. After a time, once the love chemicals wear off, familiarity sets in, and the love addict no longer feels that rush, they seek out a new person to "fall in love" with, just so they can get that fix...that high. Add to this a disinterested or lazy spouse, and it is a perfect storm waiting to erupt.
> 
> ...


she just seems like a typical "little" to me. her self awareness is obviously increasing, and her husband seems tailor made to fit her personality. as long as they continue to grow, i would wager that their relationship is not going to end any time soon.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> Ella have you looked into "love addiction"? In going back over your thread and your accounts of your growing years, I wonder if you may be afflicted with this. It is a real condition attributed to obsessive compulsive disorder, and is not just pseudo-psychology. Marilyn Monroe and Elizabeth Taylor were both love addicts, which is why they drifted from relationship to relationship, always looking for stability and security.
> 
> Love addicts are addicted to the euphoric early stages of love, "romantic love" or "limerance", where all the feel-good brain chemicals (dopamine and seratonin) are flowing and give the person that wonderful, exciting rush of being "in love". Love addicts seem to lack an inability to advance and mature into the more steady and solid forms of "committed love" that are so essential to keeping any kind of long-term relationship alive. After a time, once the love chemicals wear off, familiarity sets in, and the love addict no longer feels that rush, they seek out a new person to "fall in love" with, just so they can get that fix...that high. Add to this a disinterested or lazy spouse, and it is a perfect storm waiting to erupt.
> 
> ...


I've recognized that I've had a love addiction since I was about 14. I'm well aware of it. When I discovered my husband wasn't literally perfect, 3 months into marriage, I developed major depressive disorder. That's how unbearable my disappointment was, and how idealistic my expectations were.

I still find it almost impossible to believe that human beings weren't designed to stay "in love" for a period of more than about 2 years. What a painful concept. Apparently we're all damned to be alone, or unhappy. What gods would dare be so cruel by designing humans that way?

I've been accustomed for a few years into occasionally putting the defibrillator on my relationship by initiating these grand romantic gestures I love so much. It's my way of "defying the stars" so to speak. It's not quite _as good_ as being surprised with them myself, but I can manage. I can still fantasize about myself and my husband in the context of things we _can_ do together.

That said, I notice that a LOT- most if not all- "littles" like me have similar idealism and similar mental health issues, so it could be true that I'm just a typical "little".


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