# Snooping on spouse....what is okay?



## cavenger (Aug 26, 2012)

....and at what point do you decide you suspect enough to snoop? Is anything off limits? When we are married do we lose any expectation of privacy from our spouse?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

cavenger said:


> ....and at what point do you decide you suspect enough to snoop? Is anything off limits? When we are married do we lose any expectation of privacy from our spouse?


There was a case here in the UK of a guy who recently went to jail for snooping on his wife - hacked into her accounts without her knowledge/permission and the law treated him like a scumbag identity thief rather than like a wronged husband. Just be careful.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

There are no secrets in a marriage, no matter what the cheating pols pass as laws. Just keep your sources hidden. You become a detective to protect your family, not to use it in court.

Why do you think you need to?


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> There was a case here in the UK of a guy who recently went to jail for snooping on his wife - hacked into her accounts without her knowledge/permission and the law treated him like a scumbag identity thief rather than like a wronged husband. Just be careful.


Could you cite your source please on this one?


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

3putt said:


> Could you cite your source please on this one?


Here you go:

Husband facing five years in jail after hacking wife's email - Telegraph

Actually, I presumed it was a UK case but seems to have happened in the US.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

That was an overly zealous prosecutor. It's not at all the norm. DAs have a lot more on their plates. 

All charges dropped against Rochester Hills man accused of reading wife's email without permission - theoaklandpress.com


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## 3putt (Dec 3, 2012)

anchorwatch said:


> All charges dropped against Rochester Hills man accused of reading wife's email without permission - theoaklandpress.com


I figured this was the one he was talking about. That's why I wanted the citation.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Here you go:
> 
> Husband facing five years in jail after hacking wife's email - Telegraph
> 
> Actually, I presumed it was a UK case but seems to have happened in the US.


Seems like a case of a female prosecutor with an ax to grind and a wicked case of Prosecutorial Overreach. The law still wouldn't stop me from doing it. I just don't give a fvck about the law when it comes to things like this. Hacking my wife's e-mail prevented an emotional affair and I'm happy I did it.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Hey guys - don't shoot the messenger. I'm just pointing out a risk. 

We all have to take our own decisions in life, weighing up the risks.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Hey guys - don't shoot the messenger. I'm just pointing out a risk.
> 
> We all have to take our own decisions in life, weighing up the risks.


Not shooting anyone, just stating what I did and how I feel about the issue.


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## barbados (Aug 30, 2012)

cavenger : The point at which you decide to snoop is a personal one. We all see things differently. What red flags have led you to the point of wanted to check things out ?

As far as anything being off limits, if you really think your are being cheated on, I feel you have to do whatever it takes (and can afford, i.e. PI) to find out the truth. 

And IMO, you give up rights to privacy in a marriage. You are NOT supposed to keep secrets from your spouse. If a person wants privacy, they can always be single.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> *Seems like a case of a female prosecutor with an ax to grind and a wicked case of **Prosecutorial Overreach.* The law still wouldn't stop me from doing it. I just don't give a fvck about the law when it comes to things like this. Hacking my wife's e-mail prevented an emotional affair and I'm happy I did it.


From a PR standpoint, I wouldn't, at all, be surprised to ultimately see the DA in this particular county summarily dismiss this assistant lady prosecutor from his office for simple dereliction of duty.

Seems like that she needs far more time under her belt serving as a public defender first, to gain a little more knowledge about research capability, empathy, as well as adhering to common-sense legal principles, in trying to do her job; all while frivelously spending the people's monetary tax-dollar resources in trying to do it!


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Voltaire said:


> Hey guys - don't shoot the messenger. I'm just pointing out a risk.
> 
> We all have to take our own decisions in life, weighing up the risks.


Not shooting the messenger, but suggesting respectfully that before posting warnings as facts that all the facts get understood first as advice does influence people even on the Internet, and incomplete advice can do harm.

That one case keeps coming up, and thankfully word is beginning to get around that the case got dropped completely, and the over zealous prosecutor won't be bringing any more like it.

In fact if anything, the failure of the case and the bad notoriety it brought the prosecutor will likely give pause to anyone trying to charge a spouse like that.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Back to the OP.

Marriages should have NO secrets.

Marriage is about loyalty. If you are lying and keeping secrets from your SO, you are not being loyal.


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## Omgitsjoe (Oct 1, 2012)

Shaggy said:


> Back to the OP.
> 
> Marriages should have NO secrets.
> 
> Marriage is about loyalty. If you are lying and keeping secrets from your SO, you are not being loyal.


I agree about the no secrets !! My wife has each and everyone of my user id's and passwords for the various forums i am on and i have full access to hers !?!? There is no hiding anything ...... this is my best friend and the love of my life. The woman i want to grow old with and have next to me in my grave when its time ...... why would i hide anything from her !?!?


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

G
The biggest red flag of of all is the gut that brought you here. By the time someone gets this far, there is plenty to worry about. ?.........


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## rasana (Feb 6, 2013)

Omgitsjoe said:


> I agree about the no secrets !! My wife has each and everyone of my user id's and passwords for the various forums i am on and i have full access to hers !?!? There is no hiding anything ...... this is my best friend and the love of my life. The woman i want to grow old with and have next to me in my grave when its time ...... why would i hide anything from her !?!?


My husband said we are not Siamese twins and both need own life and own secrets. I sort of agree with this, although I do not think we should have secrets which might bring harm to our marriage. 
Once i snoopped (and found something) and he even threatened me with a lawyer, that it is illegal. At that time I found he looked at women/escorts/sexy pictures online. He started making fun of me :"now you discovered my dirty little secret, are you happy?" It got worse after this , of course, and now I think it improved, but for how long? It is out of my hands! Now I cannot snoop or read his emails, because he gets furious , saying I misinterpret things, and he got me to swear about this in our counselor's office. The counselor actually kind of agreed with him.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

rasana said:


> My husband said we are not Siamese twins and both need own life and own secrets. I sort of agree with this, although I do not think we should have secrets which might bring harm to our marriage.
> Once i snoopped (and found something) and he even threatened me with a lawyer, that it is illegal. At that time I found he looked at women/escorts/sexy pictures online. He started making fun of me :"now you discovered my dirty little secret, are you happy?" It got worse after this , of course, and now I think it improved, but for how long? It is out of my hands! Now I cannot snoop or read his emails, because he gets furious , saying I misinterpret things, and he got me to swear about this in our counselor's office. The counselor actually kind of agreed with him.



Nobody likes to be known as a snoop. On most forums, snoopers are given written lashings by most people. However, I think there comes a time where snooping is justified. If you aren't a normally insecure person and all of a sudden a bunch of things just don't look right, your gut is telling you something is wrong/to be suspicious of cheating and you've asked your spouse already... then I think it's necessary to do some sleuthing on your own. 

I am not/was not a habitual snooper but once my instincts got the better of me and my ex's continuous lies just didn't satisfy, I snooped. I turned out to be right - he was cheating. If something just doesn't look right, it probably isn't. 

People say that you should just walk away, don't snoop if you don't trust the other person but it's not always that easy. I wasn't going to break up my home (1 kid, one on the way at the time) based on a bad gut feeling. Especially given how I'd learned to doubt myself over the years and months with his crazymaking and gaslighting... He wasn't being honest, so I snooped.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

rasana said:


> Once i snoopped (and found something) and he even threatened me with a lawyer, that it is illegal.


And your answer to him should have been: "Go right the fvck ahead and do it." I guarantee you that would have shut him up.

*EDIT:*


rasana said:


> The counselor actually kind of agreed with him.


You need to find a new counselor, this one's a quack.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

cavenger said:


> ....and at what point do you decide you suspect enough to snoop? Is anything off limits? When we are married do we lose any expectation of privacy from our spouse?


All is fair in love and war. If your marriage is #1 then all else is trumped.

I believ in transaprency. So the best time for this is always. I do not have to snoop as I stay in tune with my wife. I have access to all her accounts and she mine. Kinda solves this whole thing.

Basically if you have to ask this question it is long over due. Nothing wrong with protecting your marriage. Just do not start accusing anyone of anything without reason. You can do a stealth check. If you do not have access then I would get with your spouse on transparency.

One way to breach this is to do His Needs Her Needs and do the boundary setting. 

My wife and I follow transparency and POJA. Policy Of Joint Agreement. There is not privacy in marriage beyond the restroom. It is about intimacy. Get ya some.

Marriage is about Love and Respect. Trust is a by product. But realize most affairs are with folks who honestly think they are just friends. So you can trust nature in this. Blind trust is naive, lazy and and / or ambivalent.

Oh and transaprency saved my marriage. I was in an EA and my wife saved our marriage.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Voltaire said:


> There was a case here in the UK of a guy who recently went to jail for snooping on his wife - hacked into her accounts without her knowledge/permission and the law treated him like a scumbag identity thief rather than like a wronged husband. Just be careful.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Absurd.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Voltaire said:


> There was a case here in the UK of a guy who recently went to jail for snooping on his wife - hacked into her accounts without her knowledge/permission and the law treated him like a scumbag identity thief rather than like a wronged husband. Just be careful.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Absurd. 

Willing to bet there was a lot more to this than snooping.

Besides if you know what to look for this is not so difficult.

Yoo many people discount things as innocent and flat do not understand EAs.

Besides if you are afraid of protecting your marriage your probably should not be married. LOL. 

Lose the Fear. And sure don't be stupid. No one is saying commit fraud.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

rasana said:


> My husband said we are not Siamese twins and both need own life and own secrets. I sort of agree with this, although I do not think we should have secrets which might bring harm to our marriage.
> Once i snoopped (and found something) and he even threatened me with a lawyer, that it is illegal. At that time I found he looked at women/escorts/sexy pictures online. He started making fun of me :"now you discovered my dirty little secret, are you happy?" It got worse after this , of course, and now I think it improved, but for how long? It is out of my hands! Now I cannot snoop or read his emails, because he gets furious , saying I misinterpret things, and he got me to swear about this in our counselor's office. The counselor actually kind of agreed with him.


So you basically proved your hubby was a real @$$hole. You did well. Hope he is your EX now.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

My gut was telling me things for about a year. But I had a thing against snooping - respecting privacy, etc. Finally, after about 1.5 years, I checked my wife's computer and found a secret gmail account. That's when I confirmed what my gut told me - an EA that had been ongoing for over a year (and unbeknownst to me had morphed into a PA). I felt badly for snooping but realized that my wife was the one who should feel ashamed - she had been cake eating for almost two years and lying directly to me and the kids.

So with regards to snooping, I would say follow your gut instincts. You may discover nothing OR you may discover that your gut was right. Either way - the sooner you can confirm, the better for all involved.

Oh, funny story too - my stbxw actually got VERY angry with me for snooping saying it was like "breaking into her house". Then she went on and on about how she no longer felt "safe". She did not have any clue about how her infidelity had blown up the "safety" of our marriage. No clue at all.


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## cavenger (Aug 26, 2012)

Well I asked this for a reason. My first clue was I noticed this guy saying she was pretty like her daughter etc. Which of course was "innocent" according to her. I asked her who he was and she said she didn't know. I'm thinking...but you are friends with him?? And so I did some digging into her FB messages. I found something which I would say was relationship reminiscing with lots of compliments going both ways. But no sexual talk.....just what might have been.

I have stated my opinion about what I found and there was some initial rug sweeping. I would say what I achieved was preventing the possibility of an EA. I also sent a signal to the dude that this was not okay by adding him as my friend on Facebook. I also have copies of what I need if I ever need it and know who his wife is and used that as cannon fodder. I have not contacted the guy but I am still thinking about it.

As of right now, we are okay. I really don't think anything has happened beyond what I know. And what I know is questionable as to whether it was bad to her but not to me. Again, what was achieved was sending a clear signal as to what was not okay. 

Right now I feel hurt still for some of the things I read. All I know is those things I read hurt my feelings. She has said she will get off FB or block him or De friend him or whatever. 

Still ....out of this I feel bad about the snooping because it signals a lack of trust which as we all know is the basis of any good relationship. 

It's all given me a sour taste in my mouth and I am afraid we may have some more hurdles to get over. Right now I'm still a nervous wreck.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

The Middleman said:


> Seems like a case of a *female prosecutor *with an ax to grind and a wicked case of Prosecutorial Overreach. The law still wouldn't stop me from doing it. I just don't give a fvck about the law when it comes to things like this. Hacking my wife's e-mail prevented an emotional affair and I'm happy I did it.


I have noticed that more often than not, it's women who are against snooping more so than men. I guess women have a greater tendency to stand on prinicple. I notice that it's women who are more often upset when someone lies about their age in online dating. The rationale being, if they;re lying about their age...what else are they lying about.

Men, as long as women look the age they say they are, what's the problem....... And so with snooping, it seems when a man is in love, he really doens't care when a woman looks at his phone or e-mail accounts. 

So it's not surprising to me that it's a "female" prosecutor.... possibly a single prosecutor at that, with very little relationship experience that would make a case out of this.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

C-man said:


> My gut was telling me things for about a year. *But I had a thing against snooping - respecting **privacy, etc.* Finally, after about 1.5 years, I checked my wife's computer and found a secret gmail account. That's when I confirmed what my gut told me - an EA that had been ongoing for over a year (and unbeknownst to me had morphed into a PA). I felt badly for snooping but realized that my wife was the one who should feel ashamed - she had been cake eating for almost two years and lying directly to me and the kids.
> 
> So with regards to snooping, I would say follow your gut instincts. You may discover nothing OR you may discover that your gut was right. Either way - the sooner you can confirm, the better for all involved.
> 
> Oh, funny story too - my stbxw actually got VERY angry with me for snooping saying it was like "breaking into her house". Then she went on and on about how she no longer felt "safe". She did not have any clue about how her infidelity had blown up the "safety" of our marriage. No clue at all.


Your situation richly reminds me of mine! I have always had the highest regard for privacy~ not matter whose it is! And I still do.

With regard to my STBXW, she had relegated herself to being "a night owl." When I went to bed at 10-11PM, she would largely stay up until the wee hours of the morning, sitting at my desk in my study busy on her laptop. The desk is situated against the far wall where if your sitting at it, you have your back totally turned to the two large sliding doors that open into the room.

More often than not, when I kissed her goodnight in there, telling her that I was going to "turn in," the doors were still pulled wide open. On several different occasions, when I woke up in the wee hours of the night and noticed that she still had not joined me in our bedroom just down the hall, I would walk down the hallway to the study, where she had those sliding doors totally pulled together. 

Whenever I was in the process opening them, she would often scream out in terror as if someone was breaking into the house on her. Whenever asked what she was doing up at 3 or 4 in the morning, she'd just richly say that she was just chatting with her best married girlfriend from the East Coast on FB, and loving her the way I did, I always seemed to find her explanations more than plausible.

As she told a mutual friend of ours in one of her FB conversations, "Arbitrator is a sweet guy, but sometimes he just needs to get a clue!"

Well, I did get that "clue." And I also got a revelation about her as well~ and that was that she was, in reality, little more than a wealthy, self-serving cheater!


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## cavenger (Aug 26, 2012)

Well I feel really bad right now. ... insecure because of what I read. She said she would handle things differently if someone approaches her next time. Wtf.. This sucks. Now I have to live a paranoid life.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

cavenger said:


> Again, what was achieved was sending a clear signal as to what was not okay.
> 
> Right now I feel hurt still for some of the things I read. All I know is those things I read hurt my feelings. She has said she will get off FB or block him or De friend him or whatever.
> 
> ...


The trouble you have now is that she expressed a romantic interest in another man. She spoke to him in a way that reminded you of the way she used to speak to you. Even if she didn't say I am interested in you romantically, that thought came through loud and clear in her messages with the other man.

So, she agreed to distance herself from this guy. That is good. Better than if she refused. Now, will they resume communciations? Probably not, but if they do, then she will have no excuse that it is "just innocent," since you made it clear that you were hurt by the way she communicated in the past and she agreed not to communicate with this guy at all in the future.

The deeper problem is, why did she do it? Is there something lacking? If so, what?

Take this as an opportunity to find out where you stand in your marriage. What you are happy about with each other, what you are not, what either of you consider acceptable in relationships with former romantic interests and what is not acceptable. You have the rare chance to discuss these things, which almost never are discussed until after the affair already has occurred.

This also is a good opportunity to discuss how much privacy each of you feels they have. As has been said on this forum many times, privacy is for the bathroom, everything else is secrecy. And there is no place for secrecy in a marriage where two people have vowed to share their lives together.


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## cavenger (Aug 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Snooping on spouse....what is okay?*



LanieB said:


> Maybe I'm just overly paranoid because of what I've been through (husband had year-long+ affair), but I don't think you should be so hard on yourself, Cavenger. It is quite possible that what your wife was doing was heading for at least an EA. (Is it possible it hadn't already reached that point?) That's exactly how those things get started. In my opinion, you probably headed off a bad situation. Don't feel bad for that. Believe me, you'd much rather have this current problem than have to deal with an actual A.


I guess we are all under this ridiculous impression that our marriages are immune to temptation. It's sad to me that my wife even slightly entertained the advances of another man. It makes me feel like I need to guard her night and day. ..... and I don't want to do that!


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## rasana (Feb 6, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> So you basically proved your haubby was a real @$$hole. You did well. Hope he is your EX now.


Well, as much as I lost respect and trust for my husband and I am really hurting, I still hope to be able to fix this. I do not treat my marriage as disposable after so many years of life together, and having a child.... but it is hard sometimes, I must admit that. Also, it seems that statistics say 50-70% of men do cheat in marriage, so chances were high to start with! Maybe I can do something to fix our situation. Counseling does seem to be helping and we should have just done it after the first time something even small happened.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

Snooping on my ex fiancé was one of the smartest moves I've ever done. I dodged the cuckhold bullet, big time. The heartless ***** had me convinced that because I was working so hard, our relationship was in trouble.

In the alternate universe where I didn't snoop, I would be married to *****y skank of a woman and would not have gotten the promotion I got last summer. I'd be the classic nice guy chump.

I prefer this universe wher I am now dating a sweet girl 7 years younger than my ex. Meanwhile she's a never-married 30-something who has to explain to men that she's a cheater. Only 2kinds of guys will be OK with that: a) loser betas with no pride, or b) scumbags who will **** around on her whenever they can.

Thank God I read those texts.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

rasana said:


> Well, as much as I lost respect and trust for my husband and I am really hurting, I still hope to be able to fix this. I do not treat my marriage as disposable after so many years of life together, and having a child.... but it is hard sometimes, I must admit that. Also, it seems that statistics say 50-70% of men do cheat in marriage, so chances were high to start with! Maybe I can do something to fix our situation. Counseling does seem to be helping and we should have just done it after the first time something even small happened.


70%? Where'd you get that BS stat? A$hley [email protected]?


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Voltaire said:


> Hey guys - don't shoot the messenger. I'm just pointing out a risk.
> 
> We all have to take our own decisions in life, weighing up the risks.


In the USA, pretty much everything is illegal except for watching sports and porn.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> In the USA, pretty much everything is illegal except for watching sports and porn.


& committing adultery. I do what I have to do to find out if I am being exposed to herpes, genital warts, gonorrhea, syphillis, HIV, etc. I would like to attend my children's graduations and weddings and be there for them when they experience rough times. I want a clean life free of uninvited secret scum.


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## Yessongs72 (Dec 6, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> In the USA, pretty much everything is illegal except for watching sports and porn.


i think here in the UK that watching sports will soon be illegal due to health and safety issues.

seriously though - if you want to know you've GOT to snoop - the WS isn't going to tell you ANYTHING. So VAR hidden in car -Do it, Hack her phone to email you her texts - Do it, semen detection - do it (gross), anything else you can thinkof - do it, the WS isn't going to tell you!


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This primarily comes down to one thing in the USA. Does the person have an expectation of privacy. 

And in marriage the letter of the law is:
- not on shared computers or shared phones 
- yes for your own electronics

That said, the safest thing to do is say what you have learned without saying how or why you learned it. It is not a good idea to say 'I hacked into your.... Device or account' which is how I know about... 

Your legal risk is low in the USA, but why pit yourself in harms way.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

I would fully expect that at some point in the future, there will be some landmark case that will come along and be heard by the Appellate Courts and/or the Supreme Court that will strike down certain provisions of the wiretap law, richly given that if a spouse does it to either attempt to save his/her marital union, or to have access to discovery information that could easily be destroyed by the person holding it.

This should be done under the legal argument that an attempt at the preservation of a person's marital union or defense against being sued for it's dissolution, holds far greater weight than the protection of certain deliterious information offered by those laws.

It just greatly seems to be a more common-sense option!


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> In the USA, pretty much everything is illegal except for watching sports and porn.


And since I'm not a huge sports fan.....


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

arbitrator said:


> I would fully expect that at some point in the future, there will be some landmark case that will come along and be heard by the Appellate Courts and/or the Supreme Court that will strike down certain provisions of the wiretap law, richly given that if a spouse does it to either attempt to save his/her marital union, or to have access to discovery information that could easily be destroyed by the person holding it.
> 
> This should be done under the legal argument that an attempt at the preservation of a person's marital union or defense against being sued for it's dissolution, holds far greater weight than the protection of certain deliterious information offered by those laws.
> 
> It just greatly seems to be a more common-sense option!


and I also hope that it is not dependent on whether children are involved.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

cavenger said:


> ....and at what point do you decide you suspect enough to snoop? Is anything off limits? When we are married do we lose any expectation of privacy from our spouse?


It's naive to think indiscriminate snooping without some reason behind it doesn't damage a relationship. If I put a VAR in my wife's car and she found it then I better have some reason for it. If on the other hand I saw red flags and she found me snooping then it's a blunt conversation about the red flags, transparency, or whatever.

Boundaries and transparency mostly make this moot because there's accountability for both partners. Red flags are painfully obvious as well. If there were red flags then I'd snoop in a heartbeat.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

C-man said:


> My gut was telling me things for about a year. But I had a thing against snooping - respecting privacy, etc. Finally, after about 1.5 years, I checked my wife's computer and found a secret gmail account. That's when I confirmed what my gut told me - an EA that had been ongoing for over a year (and unbeknownst to me had morphed into a PA). I felt badly for snooping but realized that my wife was the one who should feel ashamed - she had been cake eating for almost two years and lying directly to me and the kids.
> 
> So with regards to snooping, I would say follow your gut instincts. You may discover nothing OR you may discover that your gut was right. Either way - the sooner you can confirm, the better for all involved.
> 
> Oh, funny story too - my stbxw actually got VERY angry with me for snooping saying it was like "breaking into her house". Then she went on and on about how she no longer felt "safe". She did not have any clue about how her infidelity had blown up the "safety" of our marriage. No clue at all.


The real pity in this is that if you catch can EA early enough it is possible to shut it down. Marriages are destroyed during these early phases when the folks in the EA do not even realize they are in one.

My wife save our marriage by engaging early. I realized I was in an EA after I went thru withdrawal. Otherwise I was certain we were just good friends. I was wrong. But what saved us was that we had complete transparency and my wife was willing to engage this.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

cavenger said:


> Well I asked this for a reason. My first clue was I noticed this guy saying she was pretty like her daughter etc. Which of course was "innocent" according to her. I asked her who he was and she said she didn't know. I'm thinking...but you are friends with him?? And so I did some digging into her FB messages. I found something which I would say was relationship reminiscing with lots of compliments going both ways. But no sexual talk.....just what might have been.
> 
> I have stated my opinion about what I found and there was some initial rug sweeping. I would say what I achieved was preventing the possibility of an EA. I also sent a signal to the dude that this was not okay by adding him as my friend on Facebook. I also have copies of what I need if I ever need it and know who his wife is and used that as cannon fodder. I have not contacted the guy but I am still thinking about it.
> 
> ...


For some reason people think EAs are about overt sexual expression. Too bad. They see the evidence and do not realize what they are looking at.

EAs are about bonding as friends. There can be some flirting. But the damage to the marriage occurs during these innocent times. Later they can become romantic and then that can lead to a PA.

if an EA progresses too far even drastic measures will not stop it from moving forward.

The interactions that are of a sexual nature are rreally something else. I suppose they could be a form of an EA but really it is flat just cheating.

MOST affairs are of the innocent looking kind.

Inappropriate Behavior --> Unfaithfulness -> Cheating

Unfaithfulness is anything that is NOT faithfu. So lying or hiding things that the person thinks their partner would not understand is unfaithful.

She lied to you about this guy. She broke your trust.

Where does this noyion that a man should not protect hsi marriage come from? That a man is supposed to just trust. LOL. This is counter productive. Lose your fears around this. They are self inflicted. Better to be a good loveing husband who is aware and willing to protect his marrage than a guy who is unwilling to engage his marriage. Never be afraid of being called jealous, insecure or controlling. No blind trust. That is the rhetoric of cheaters and those who have no real. understanding of how affairs begin. A man has an obligation to protect his marriage. As does a woman. It is a partnership where people look out for another. Or not. One can just give up but they put their marriage at risk.

Realize the whol paradigm has shifted with social programming and mulimedia.

She lied about this guy at a minimun she needs to block hin, but you better keep checking this and all her other accounts. She was being inappropriate and from your words had dipped into unfaithfulness at the least. Some was to come meeting for coffee of lunch. Or telling you she was meeting a GF and having a friendly chat with him that you "would not understand".


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> I have noticed that more often than not, it's women who are against snooping more so than men. I guess women have a greater tendency to stand on prinicple. I notice that it's women who are more often upset when someone lies about their age in online dating. The rationale being, if they;re lying about their age...what else are they lying about.
> 
> Men, as long as women look the age they say they are, what's the problem....... And so with snooping, it seems when a man is in love, he really doens't care when a woman looks at his phone or e-mail accounts.
> 
> So it's not surprising to me that it's a "female" prosecutor.... possibly a single prosecutor at that, with very little relationship experience that would make a case out of this.


Many women like to cake eat. They feel they can be in control and have other men in their lives. Remember they have been socially programmed over the last 50 years to proclaim they are independent and have the right to do whatever they want with their body and themselves. So many have taken it further than others. Women love attention. They are under constant peer pressure to NOT be controlled from their peers. To assert thier independence from any man. This is wrapped up of course into fundamental rights but it is taken to an extreme that challenges a monogamous marriage unfotuntely.

I mean seriously what fun it must be to have all the advnatages of marriage yet to be able to have privacy and develop other opposite sex relationships. To have your needs met by many men. This pulls marriage to a more open state. At the extreme an actual open marriage.
All marriage have a level of openess from wearing a burqa to full open sexual relationship with others. Most of us live around the middle. But it is not uncommon for some to effectively be flirting and dating other while in a marriage. They call it having close firends and they do not date ... they hang out. 

Many women want to have close male friends. It is natural. But it can turn into effectively dating other men. Some floks flat never make the transition from single behavior to marriage.

So yeah you were able this time to possibly catch something. But you have not fixed the root cause and you frankly do not know the whole picture. You just got lucky.

I suggest you push for transparency.

Also please do His Needs Her Needs and do the boundary setting. You wife is getting needs met by other you need to be meeting. AND she has weaker boundaries with the opposite sex friend than you would like.

What feel good it so know you have transparency, solid boundaries and your wife is your partner. Predators love the new rules of being able to cheat with married women with poor boundaries that want to hide things from thier hubbies. They count on hubbies not wanting to be called controlling. They count on privacy.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

cavenger said:


> Well I feel really bad right now. ... insecure because of what I read. She said she would handle things differently if someone approaches her next time. Wtf.. This sucks. Now I have to live a paranoid life.


jealousy -- you have reason to feel jealous BTW. A guys was htting on your wife and your wife was playing along

insecure -- you have reason to feel insecure. Your marriage has a boundary issue and you are not sure how to deal with it.

controlling -- well privacy keeps you from knowing so you cannot inervene. Realize we do not control others. We control ourselves. So you major issue is to decide what your boundaries are and what you will accept. Then you can engage with your wife in a loving partnership. Much of your issues are on how YOU feel. I suggest you change your feelings and define your boundaries.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

cavenger said:


> I guess we are all under this ridiculous impression that our marriages are immune to temptation. It's sad to me that my wife even slightly entertained the advances of another man. It makes me feel like I need to guard her night and day. ..... and I don't want to do that!


No marriage is immune. 

You do not need to guard her night and day but you do need to have better boundaries, transparency and a willingness to protect your marriage.

This takes effort. Many would rather juts not put in the effort.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

rasana said:


> Well, as much as I lost respect and trust for my husband and I am really hurting, I still hope to be able to fix this. I do not treat my marriage as disposable after so many years of life together, and having a child.... but it is hard sometimes, I must admit that. Also, it seems that statistics say 50-70% of men do cheat in marriage, so chances were high to start with! Maybe I can do something to fix our situation. Counseling does seem to be helping and we should have just done it after the first time something even small happened.


Good. The thing is that too often folks settle for a marriage that has a lot of issues. Being willing to say that either the marriage is fixed or I am gone is what it sometimes takes. 

If my wife had to get a lawyer to intervene we would not truly be married.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

LanieB said:


> I re-read your post where you explained what happened. When you asked her who the guy was she lied and said she didn't know. She LIED and SHE WAS PRIVATE-MESSAGING THE GUY. That's definitely suspicious behavior, giving you every reason to check into what was really going on.
> 
> Yeah, it sucks to feel suspicious, but none of us here on this forum were suspicious until our spouses gave us REASONS to be suspicious. If they weren't doing questionable things, we would all be having "nice", "normal", "unsuspicious" relationships and wouldn't have to obsess over what they're all hiding.
> 
> As for your case, hopefully your wife just got caught up in all the compliments - maybe that's why she kept replying in ways that would keep the messages and compliments flowing. Maybe you've brought her back to reality and she'll make sure she doesn't head down that slippery slope again. I still say it's a good thing you did what you did. Keep an eye on her for a while, and maybe every so often until you're comfortable that nothing is going on (but don't tell her about it). In the meantime, do more things together - date nights, etc, Valentine's Day is coming up - see if you can improve your relationship so neither of you will be tempted in the future.


My wife contacting another man and lying to me about it would be unfaithful behavior and frankly from my view cheating and it would be a dealbreaker.


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## cavenger (Aug 26, 2012)

*Re: Re: Snooping on spouse....what is okay?*



Entropy3000 said:


> My wife contacting another man and lying to me about it would be unfaithful behavior and frankly from my view cheating and it would be a dealbreaker.


To be fair, he contacted her. ...but I get your point.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

cavenger said:


> To be fair, he contacted her. ...but I get your point.


Oh I assumed. He was fishing. This is soooooo common. Some folks have to learn to say no. So I could rewrite "my wife connecting with another man". But replying to him at all is contact but I also get that she did not seek him out. That detail loses much though once the exchange is underway.

I know of two couples who divorced over FB connection and then high school reunion ... and so on.

Our society has not yet adapted to this type of access. Most peple have inadequate boundaries with this stuff.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Oh I assumed. He was fishing. This is soooooo common. * Some folks have to learn to say no.
> *
> I know of two couples who divorced over FB connection and then high school reunion ... and so on.
> 
> Our society has not yet adapted to this type of access. Most peple have inadequate boundaries with this stuff.


My exH always used the excuse that he couldn't say no. That's why we're ex's.

I've mentioned this before but it bears repeating, I found it interesting on another message board in which young women were saying that there's nothing wrong with meeting with an ex as long as you're not having sex with them.

I tried to point out to them that emotional fidelity is equally important. but that's a fairly recent concept these days.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> My exH always used the excuse that he couldn't say no. That's why we're ex's.
> 
> I've mentioned this before but it bears repeating, I found it interesting on another message board in which young women were saying *that there's nothing wrong with meeting with an ex as long as you're not having sex with them.*
> 
> I tried to point out to them that emotional fidelity is equally important. but that's a fairly recent concept these days.


Yes. And that is toally absurd. There is nothing right about it. I get that it is very enjoyable for them to do so.

Much of this attitude is very much but not all from young women .... many of whom have never been married or have been married less than five years.

Then we see others that later on in life try to re-open things by seeking out independent behavior.
Typically around 40.

EXs are a heartbeat away from falling into the sack. I know from experience. I would hasten this was before I was married. On one occasion I ran into a previous lover in the afternoon. We had dinner. Went dancing and she spent the night. We even broke the bed. I found out a coupe of days later she was in a LTR.

There is no pretense between ex lovers.

One of my favorite comments we hear from young women when a man disapproves of ceratin relationships or activities is "he is not my dad". LOL. That tells you they are still rebelling like when they were in high school. They have daddy issues. They have not yet transitioned into being able to have an adult relationship with a man in a mongamous context.

Young men have their own issues. They go out of their way to prove they are not a neandrathal to prove theor owrthiness ... deep down they figure this will earn them points and they will get laid. This is why some guys will defend certain behavior and even say they trust and do not want to be seen as controlling. Then after they have been shoved through the ringer they realize there is more to being a man.


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## cavenger (Aug 26, 2012)

Thanks everyone. .... I've been more the accused than the accuser so far. First it was why was I going in her phone. ... Then it was just between friends and I am making a big deal out of nothing. .... then for the question as to why she led. .. because I blow up at everything. And she has yet to block him or do anything on her own.....I guess I am just going to have to demand it. The biggest issue I have is that she keeps saying that this was okay behavior.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

cavenger said:


> Thanks everyone. .... I've been more the accused than the accuser so far. First it was why was I going in her phone. ... Then it was just between friends and I am making a big deal out of nothing. .... then for the question as to why she led. .. because I blow up at everything. And she has yet to block him or do anything on her own.....I guess I am just going to have to demand it. The biggest issue I have is that she keeps saying that this was okay behavior.


This is SOP. She is following the script. You have to assert your boundaries. Call it a demand or whatever.

But you must tell her this is unaccetpable in your marriage. That you cannot control what she does but you can control yourself. That if she does not comply that you will have to move on from the marriage.

Then do not argue or negotiate. Whether she sees what she is doing to your marriage as harmful or not does not matter. You are being disrespected and she is being unfaithful. She does not have to agree. She only needs to comply. Her choice.

She must go NC with this guy. Verifiably. You will need total transparency. You cannot work on the marriage until the 3rd party is out of it. It will take a couple of months to withdraw. ANY contact whatsoever starts the clock over. She may take this underground.

This may be your last chance to stop this and turn things around. If this other guy is more important to her you have your answer. If so she is very deep into the betrayal.

If a spouse loves you and values the marriage they will comply whether they see the damage or not.

But you are getting all the cheater excuses to manipulate and delay. This i an addiction and you are trying to stop her from getting her fix. This is tough love.

The more she fights this the more she proves this is cheating.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> MOST affairs are of the innocent looking kind.
> 
> Inappropriate Behavior --> Unfaithfulness -> Cheating
> 
> Unfaithfulness is anything that is NOT faithfu. So lying or hiding things that the person thinks their partner would not understand is unfaithful.


I agree.

Most of these affairs begin with unnecessary and inappropriate conversations. Most men and women, married or single, will find that most of their relationships begin with the testing of boundaries. 

If an instigator does not get checked and set back for being inappropriate they will continue, and boundaries will keep being tested and broken until they are stuck in a downward spiral of lies and disconnect for their spouse.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

cavenger said:


> Thanks everyone. .... I've been more the accused than the accuser so far. First it was why was I going in her phone. ... Then it was just between friends and I am making a big deal out of nothing. .... then for the question as to why she led. .. because I blow up at everything. And she has yet to block him or do anything on her own.....I guess I am just going to have to demand it. The biggest issue I have is that she keeps saying that this was okay behavior.
> 
> 
> Entropy3000 said:
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Biscuits (Aug 2, 2012)

Well, here is my story. 

Started dating my wife, instantly gave her all my passwords to my e-mail, facebook and phone any time she wanted to check on me.

She guarded her own, vehemently, and randomly accused me of cheating on occasion. She had access to all my stuff so I didn't really understand why she didn't verify for herself....but she did go through my stuff DAILY. Oh, she couldn't find anything because I was just "really good at hiding my affair(s)"...what? I told her numerous times that i was fidelis to her...anyway

I found out later that almost routinely when she would accuse me of cheating...it would be because of a message she had either recieved from her AP, or a plan to cheat on me was in place. Realistically, she accused me of cheating, and believed I was, so mentally she could get sex from her AP because "I was doing it too".

Of course, after DDay, I demanded her passwords...which she willingly gave up, and I was able to check through her stuff ONCE...until I found more evidence of cheating. She changed her passwords and basically shut my requests down, yeah, her excuse was, "you'll either trust me, or not, you don't need to see what I'm saying to my friends". Touche lover, anyway. I know she cheated, I snooped, cracked her facebook, e-mail, phone password. As some would say, I "stole" her identity, but I got what I needed. She is a cheater, does not have access to ANY of my accounts. She is afforded the same respect she gives me....no access.

Anyway, I assume in a semi-healthy marriage, access is open to both parties. An explanation would be given if 1 partner is uncomfortable with anothers friend or aquantiance, and any attempt would be made to make the spouse happy regarding interaction between the two, be it virtual or reality. 

But, cheaters cheat. Liars lie. Some do it because they can, some do it because they have to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> My exH always used the excuse that he couldn't say no. That's why we're ex's.
> 
> I've mentioned this before but it bears repeating, I found it interesting on another message board in which young women were saying that there's nothing wrong with meeting with an ex as long as you're not having sex with them.
> 
> I tried to point out to them that emotional fidelity is equally important. but that's a fairly recent concept these days.


That is odd how any married spouse would even entertain the idea of meeting an ex lover, alone, to what, rekindle? Wish them the best if you ever meet them in public and move on with it, forget the reconnecting etc, its fire.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> Young men have their own issues. They go out of their way to prove they are not a neandrathal to prove theor owrthiness ... deep down they figure this will earn them points and they will get laid. This is why some guys will defend certain behavior and even say they trust and do not want to be seen as controlling. Then after they have been shoved through the ringer they realize there is more to being a man.


I realise that my fiancé outed himself on one occasion. He maintains that he was "just friends" with his ex. So he answered a few questions about a trip he took with her and then he added: "I was surprised myself that she could have a bf and still take a trip with another man." 

My first thought was, well, that's what you get with these 20 something women. But later on, I realised, why should he be surprised IF he had bought into the belief that they were "just friends."

He also told me that her bf picked them up at the airport and gave him a ride home. I have always wondered what HER bf thought of this "friendship."

(both my fiance and this other guy were 40 at the time. SO I guess older men are playing along with this routine as well.)


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

Biscuits said:


> Well, here is my story.
> 
> Started dating my wife, instantly gave her all my passwords to my e-mail, facebook and phone any time she wanted to check on me.
> 
> ...


So when did you throw her ass out!


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> I realise that my fiancé outed himself on one occasion. He maintains that he was "just friends" with his ex. So he answered a few questions about a trip he took with her and then he added: "I was surprised myself that she could have a bf and still take a trip with another man."
> 
> My first thought was, well, that's what you get with these 20 something women. But later on, I realised, why should he be surprised IF he had bought into the belief that they were "just friends."
> 
> ...



That is odd. I personally would not do that a SO.

Most cheaters convince themselves that it is "just friends", "just meeting them and catching up", yet deep down inside they have a temptation, an enticement to find out if something is there and they keep communicating, seeing how far it goes. Before they know it, yet some even decide to, they are full blown cheaters lost in the fog or justifying the reason they chose to cheat.


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