# Wife went overseas with child, now does not "feel in love"



## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Been married for 3 years, and we have a 2 year old. 

Long story short, in the past 2 years her brother died, grandmother died, and father died 2 weeks ago. 

Before she left she was loving, and we both agreed we were the closest we have ever been. We have had our bad moments, but overall she was emailing and texting me at work daily how much she loves me etc.

We always agreed to not be apart for more than 2 weeks, but when she went home to see her dying dad it changed.. It went from 2 weeks, to 3 weeks, to 4 weeks, to after Easter.So, she should be back with my son April 2.

Each time she delayed her trip longer it was an argument between us. Maybe I should have been more caring and understanding, but at the same time I was worried about outside influences having a negative effect on her as well.. (Sister n law, mom, friends) etc. 

So, last week she said she was going to change her ticket to be home on Easter with me.. Then the following day when I asked if she changed it she just said things like "Oh it is a hassle to call.. I only said I was thinking about changing it.".etc

This led to another argument, as not so much about her staying there for Easter, but more or less how she says one thing then basically acts like she never said it. 

So, we became closer again, and then she just tells me she is confused.. Feels empty.. Does not miss me..not sure if she loves me..I asked if she is still coming back on April 2, and I cannot get a direct answer. She just says "I have no answers about anything" She told me she needs romance, which we have not had. She needs more love and respect. I told her I agree, but things have been tough with a new baby, deaths in her family, moving etc.. I told her to remember how she felt before she left, and sent her the emails. 

If there is another delay, to be honest I am not sure what to do.

So, at this point do not really know what to do.. Can't really eat all day, cant think, and feel it is best not to contact her. She knows I miss her and my son greatly, but I do not know if she is actually going to come back.. Should I just play it cool and give her time? Let her contact me?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Cut off the money for starters.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

tom67 said:


> Cut off the money for starters.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Absolutely


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

I did cut off the money.. She only has about $200.

She knows at this point I would not send anymore. She is staying with her sister n law that has 3 kids, so it is doubtful her sister in law is going to support her. She even had to pay her back for some stuff she purchased when my wife didn't have money.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> I did cut off the money.. She only has about $200.
> 
> She knows at this point I would not send anymore. She is staying with her sister n law that has 3 kids, so it is doubtful her sister in law is going to support her. She even had to pay her back for some stuff she purchased when my wife didn't have money.


Just go quiet.

While you are quiet, do you have any access to her phone/text records, email accounts, Facebook, etc.?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Contact an immigration attorney figure out your options.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

No, I do not have all of her passwords or email accounts. She changed the chip in her phone while in the other country so I do not see that doing much good. 

Could this possibly be her just wanting me to miss her and appreciate her more? She is seriously considering kidnapping my kid and not returning? She left all of her clothes here and only took a suitcase.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> No, I do not have all of her passwords or email accounts. She changed the chip in her phone while in the other country so I do not see that doing much good.
> 
> Could this possibly be her just wanting me to miss her and appreciate her more? She is seriously considering kidnapping my kid and not returning? She left all of her clothes here and only took a suitcase.


Depends on if she is with posOM.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Depends on if she is with posOM.


I suppose anything is possible. I call her sister n laws house and she is always there, and she was always at her moms prior to that. I do not want to sound naieve, but I never thought of another man being in the picture, especially after her dad just died 2 weeks ago and her taking care of our 2 yr old.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> I suppose anything is possible. I call her sister n laws house and she is always there, and she was always at her moms prior to that. I do not want to sound naieve, but I never thought of another man being in the picture, especially after her dad just died 2 weeks ago and her taking care of our 2 yr old.


There's a reason she doesn't wish to return.


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## ChknNoodleSoup (Oct 20, 2012)

I grew up overseas. The first time I left my husband to go see my family, I had a terrible time and missed him so much! The second time, it was much easier. What changed? He was a jerk to me before I left. I went home and was lavished with love and attention. I remember being sick at having to come back to no family and no love and no attention. So if you haven't been very caring and loving and she just lost her dad, and going home bonded with everyone, that could be a reason. We don't know the details but I would not go dark. I would tell her that she matters to me and you want to make this work and out in effort and romance and such. Remember the good times and ask her what she needs to feel loved, etc. if He gives you concrete examples, she's probably not lying. If it's generic statements and nothing in particular, I'd start to worry.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

ChknNoodleSoup said:


> I grew up overseas. The first time I left my husband to go see my family, I had a terrible time and missed him so much! The second time, it was much easier. What changed? He was a jerk to me before I left. I went home and was lavished with love and attention. I remember being sick at having to come back to no family and no love and no attention.


She is staying with her sis n law, her 3 kids, and she also has her mom, my son, etc so she always has a lot of people and company around.

She did say she was weary about coming back before as it is just me and her, and she needs her family now for support.. Saying she would be lonely. This also upset me, as we have a family together.. What about my loneliness? My entire family is gone.

It seems the nicer I have been the more she pulls away. And yes, I was a jerk in ways before she left as I hate her leaving and she knows it.. I did understand she wanted to see her dad before he passes.. 

She told me she needs to be loved by me, more romance, more patience etc. In my opinion this space is killing our relationship, as resentment is building on my side, and we have had horrible conversations recently.. This morning she said she loved me and will leave the house for the first time in days to go for a walk and clear her head. Havent talked to her all day, and that has been the longest we went without talking since we met.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

You're going to have to work on your codependence no matter what.

Have you ever been to therapy?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

No, never went to therapy for anything..

The positives I see are:

A. She left because her dad died, not because we were in a bad place.. We are actually in a great place when she left.

B. She has no income or money to stay, and things are expensive there. 

C. Other man.. Of course, nobody knows, but as I said we were in a great place before she left, and I always have known where she is. Was at hospital with dad, home with mom, home with sis n law. She is not the partying type, and to be honest can't imagine her jumping into a relationship 1 week after her dad died while she is with my 2yo son who never left her sight since he was born. 

The negatives:

A. Said she did not miss me, not sure if she loves me, will be lonely when she comes back. 

In a way much of this sounds really immature to me. She says we did not have enough romance, but in between her brothers cancer, and dads cancer, and raising a baby with 3 times the bills, it was not a great breeding ground for romance with me consoling her nightly while she is crying about the deaths in her family.

She also seems to have no concern over me missing my son. it all seems to be about her at this point. 

I was thinking of sending her a nice note or e mail, but cant really put up with hearing she is "confused" anymore so i am thinking i will not contact her tonight.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

The more your relationship looks like parent/child the less attractive you will be to her.

Get into therapy and work on codependence.

Codependent partners almost see themselves as the "parent" for the "junior partner"

They figure this will earn them love.

It doesn't.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> especially after her dad just died 2 weeks ago and her taking care of our 2 yr old.


She's emotionally vulnerable, the possibilities are endless but at this moment I wouldn't focus too much on your marriage problems or another man(men) being in the picture.

You need to get your son within our borders then focus on the other issues.

Have you contacted our embassy over there on what can be done if she were to never come back?


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Said she did not miss me, not sure if she loves me, will be lonely when she comes back.


In other words, "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" speech. Search that term around here and see what the real reason is behind that speech.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

That's what I keep saying. Do whatever you have to in order to get her back in the states before you do anything. Lie, promise, whatever but get her to bring your son back.


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

Conrad said:


> There's a reason she doesn't wish to return.


Yes there probably is Conrad. And sometimes it's staring you right in the mirror.

Sorry, but he already said she's always where she is supposed to be. Did you read where he says there have been 3 deaths in her family in close succession? I'm tired of everyone on this site acting like there are no other explanations for a woman's behavior than cheating. That shouldn't be everyone's first thought after events like those (3 deaths of close family members). If my husband accused me of that at such a point in my life we would definitely be over.

OP, maybe she's just having a hard time leaving her family after the deaths and changes? Guilt over not living close by is a hard thing if she was close to her family.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> Been married for 3 years, and we have a 2 year old.
> 
> Long story short, in the past 2 years her brother died, grandmother died, and father died 2 weeks ago.
> 
> ...


Are you kind of controlling? Maybe that's part of the reason? I mean, you may have agreed to never be apart more than 2 weeks but I think that would go out the window if you were overseas with a dying parent. Come on. Is there some other reason you don't trust her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Your wife says she wants romance. The two of you have let the relationship go stale. 

My suggestion is that you get the book "His Needs, Her Needs" and read it. It will tell you what she means when she says she wants romance and why she needs it. Later she can read it as well as it will tell her about your needs.

All this talk about you doing the 180 is not going to work at this point. When she feels a huge void, that will only drive her further away from you.

She wants romance.. give it to her.

Send her a roses. Then get on a plane and go get her. Sweep her off her feet. Show her that she means enough to you for you to do something big. You don't have to stay down there long... just long enough to let the relatives take care of your son and you two spend a night or two somewhere, then help her pack and come home.

Or if she gets on the plane to come home before you get a chance to fly down there, have something big ready for her. 

She feels empty. She's depressed. Her father just died. Her marriage seems stale.. what wonderful romantic thing can you do right now? What does she really like?


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

ChknNoodleSoup said:


> I grew up overseas. The first time I left my husband to go see my family, I had a terrible time and missed him so much! The second time, it was much easier. What changed? He was a jerk to me before I left. I went home and was lavished with love and attention. I remember being sick at having to come back to no family and no love and no attention. So if you haven't been very caring and loving and she just lost her dad, and going home bonded with everyone, that could be a reason. We don't know the details but I would not go dark. I would tell her that she matters to me and you want to make this work and out in effort and romance and such. Remember the good times and ask her what she needs to feel loved, etc. if He gives you concrete examples, she's probably not lying. If it's generic statements and nothing in particular, I'd start to worry.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TeaLeaves4 (Feb 19, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> She is staying with her sis n law, her 3 kids, and she also has her mom, my son, etc so she always has a lot of people and company around.
> 
> She did say she was weary about coming back before as it is just me and her, and she needs her family now for support.. Saying she would be lonely. This also upset me, as we have a family together.. What about my loneliness? My entire family is gone.
> 
> ...


Oh wow. Yep. Work on yourself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

TeaLeaves4 said:


> Are you kind of controlling? Maybe that's part of the reason? I mean, you may have agreed to never be apart more than 2 weeks but I think that would go out the window if you were overseas with a dying parent. Come on. Is there some other reason you don't trust her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks for the advice..

And you are right, I cannot even really think of accusing her of cheating at this time. Especially in front of her mom, nieces and nephews that she helped raise, our 2 yr old son, right after her dad died.. I understand that someone who was cheated on could always say "yes, but it happens, how do you know " etc but I just really doubt it in this case.

I think she was pretty mad at me for arguing with her during this time, but I think she is over that already. I think she enjoys being around a lot of family members, as opposed to being home alone while I work with our son. She is there with our son, and everyone loves him, which gives her a lot of attention too.

The reason I didn't want her to stay so long? She went twice before, and the first 2 weeks she hates it there, then gets used to it, then when she comes back home she has to re adjust to life here all over again. Sort of sad, depressed, emotional and it effects our family life until she re adjusts and we can have good times again.

So what gives me lots of resentment ? When I met her she had a tiny apartment, was single, working 60 hours a week teaching to barely pay bills, no kid etc. She wasn't getting along that great with her family, most of her friends were married, and life was not that awesome back home. 

We dated long distance, got married, had a beautiful son, and I paid for every single thing since we married.. Sure, it is "just money" but every dime I earned involves work, stress, and I shared it with her.. Her life became meaningful and several times better from where she was. Her financial stresses ended..She wanted nothing more than to have a family..

I then also listened and consoled for 2 years, most of our marriage about her family illnesses.. Not easy for me either to deal with it.Her mom would call daily to embellish and give her the worst news possible, and I watch my wife cry.. 

And before she left she was telling me he how we need to be together forever, we are closer than ever, everything is getting better etc etc.


And now, she can go back to Brazil as a married woman, nice things, beautiful son, and enjoy all of the attention. And what does she tell me as I am working every day, worrying, feeling sick? "I need more romance.. I am not sure if I miss you.. I am trying to remember the good times...I am not sure if I love you"

It is like she is only capable of living in the exact moment, and not showing me the respect? gratitude? commitment? that I deserve? Sure, it is great fun to go on a vacation, but is that real life, and you cannot realize where you were before you met me?

And I also flip this around and wonder how she would feel if I took our son to Europe and started playing these games.."gee honey, I am not sure if I miss you..Not sure when I am coming back exactly.."

I am trying to be understanding of all the deaths she had to endure, but it is difficult to remain calm and understanding when I think of it in different ways.


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

Friend, if your wife is in mourning, your marriage is in jeopardy and you've been alienated from your child, you need to go into action. If I were you, I would take leave of work and go and meet your wife in Brazil. Otherwise, she will grow even more distant. If she's telling you she needs romance, be romantic and show up at her doorstep. Also, please be aware that deaths of fathers lead to a lot of questioning for a female. I've seen many threads on this site where an affair started within 3 to 6 months of a father's death. If she's back in Brazil, and there's a "family friend" or ex-boyfriend consoling her during this time and YOU are giving her heartache, then you can almost kiss your marriage goodbye. 

If it becomes apparent that she is not leaving Brazil and you are getting a divorce, you need to act immediately to bring your son back. Please google "Hague Convention Parental Abduction" and consult a lawyer. The longer you wait, the greater the chance you could lose your son.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> When I met her she had a tiny apartment, was single, working 60 hours a week teaching to barely pay bills, no kid etc. She wasn't getting along that great with her family, most of her friends were married, and life was not that awesome back home.
> 
> We dated long distance, got married, had a beautiful son, and I paid for every single thing since we married.. Sure, it is "just money" but every dime I earned involves work, stress, and I shared it with her.. Her life became meaningful and several times better from where she was. Her financial stresses ended..She wanted nothing more than to have a family..
> 
> I then also listened and consoled for 2 years, most of our marriage about her family illnesses.. Not easy for me either to deal with it.Her mom would call daily to embellish and give her the worst news possible, and I watch my wife cry..


So, you were good to her when the world wasn't.

Deep inside, you expect a payback in gratitude and appreciation for your goodness.

And, she's not showing you that.

So, you're getting angry.

Welcome to the forum.

We know EXACTLY how that feels.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

You need to take a flight down there asap jmo.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> So, we became closer again, and then she just tells me she is confused.. Feels empty.. Does not miss me..not sure if she loves me..I asked if she is still coming back on April 2, and I cannot get a direct answer. She just says "I have no answers about anything" She told me she needs romance, which we have not had. She needs more love and respect. I told her I agree, but things have been tough with a new baby, deaths in her family, moving etc.. I told her to remember how she felt before she left, and sent her the emails.


She will remain "confused" as long as you give her options and keep the decision making power in her hands. I would tell her that you would love to see her but as she does not appear to be coming home and as Easter is getting very close you have now made other plans. 

Having choices is confusing. Having some or all of those options removed clarifies the mind.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Voltaire said:


> She will remain "confused" as long as you give her options and keep the decision making power in her hands. I would tell her that you would love to see her but as she does not appear to be coming home and as Easter is getting very close you have now made other plans.
> 
> Having choices is confusing. Having some or all of those options removed clarifies the mind.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

At this point her ticket is to return april 1. So what I need advice with is how to play it until then. Courts lawyers me going there can come later. So do I tell her I love her again and again? Just be calm and aloof. When she contacts me just act like wverything is normal and make small talk? Dont contact her and just wait?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

tom67 said:


> You need to take a flight down there asap jmo.


Be as normal as you can be for now. Not overly affectionate, but not cold either.

If she cancels her return on 4/1, then be ready to do what Tom suggests.

Do it quickly - and without telling her.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

The latest is now that she is coming back monday but because our son needs a father. She said she is not sure if she loves me though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> The latest is now that she is coming back monday but because our son needs a father. She said she is not sure if she loves me though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Keep us posted.

Study this link over the weekend.

Read them all.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> The latest is now that she is coming back monday but because our son needs a father. She said she is not sure if she loves me though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She didn't say "I don't love you". She said she's not sure. 

This is a start.

Her coming back saves you a TON of drama. Feel relieved about that.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

MarriedMan, you know what?

If I had three family members I care about, including a parent, die in a short time, and my spouse was a jerk about me going to be with them, and gave me a hard time about wanting to stay there, I might feel like staying with a family who supported me instead of coming home as well, and I might express my displeasure.

If, further to that, I had a low paid but fulfilling career, and my spouse demeaned it, took me out of it, and then argues they were being loving because they paid for stuff it woud not impress me.

And there may be other incidents in your marriage worthy of consideration.

Sorry if I am being harsh but I suspect you actually owe her an apology, and you need to consider marriage counselling together to make sure your marriage is on a sustainable footing.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Well, things took a turn for the worse.

On Thursday she told me she is coming back Monday. We made small talk all day, I told her I was buying our son a gift to give him at the airport etc.

Then Thursday night she just said she has anxiety about us fighting and is not coming back yet. Which led to another argument. I tried to tell myself to remain calm, and I wasn't yelling or anything, but more or less was giving an ultimatum.

She asked me Friday how work was, and I told her I had to hire someone for the website we have.. She found out it was a girl, and then she was mad all day.. I do not see why, the last web designer i had was a girl as well. She is still mad about that. She brought it to the level of "You brought a f'ing girl into our bed?".. The girl I hired works remotely and doesn't even know where I live.. But my wife is really upset.

The only other info I can give is that she had a lot of anxiety to fly back home to see her Dad and did not want to go. Now she has anxiety to come back. At this point she still did not change her ticket but told me verbally she will stay longer.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

If you don't get a grip she won't come back and you're going to have a tough time getting your son back in the states.

I think you'd almost be better off going dark. As long as she knows you're upset she knows she can stay longer. She's using it as an excuse.

Stop talking to her. Make her wonder what you are doing.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> If you don't get a grip she won't come back and you're going to have a tough time getting your son back in the states.
> 
> *I think you'd almost be better off going dark.* As long as she knows you're upset she knows she can stay longer. She's using it as an excuse.
> 
> Stop talking to her. Make her wonder what you are doing.


That's what I am thinking too.. To be honest it makes me feel much better inside as well. All I know is that explaining, telling her I miss her and my son, asking her to re consider just has the opposite effect. She then becomes further entrenched in her "not returning" mode. 

I am so emotionally drained from this that going dark should not be that difficult..


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

You could try a modified 'dark' first. I did that with my husband recently when he was gone for 3 months. I set a timer for 10-15 minutes and made up some lame excuse to get off the phone. Acted like I was having a BLAST without him. Not in a mean way but in a "you're not here so I'm getting on with my life way". I pretended to be HAPPY that he was gone and busy. Total lie but he wasn't here so he bought it.

Within THREE days he was going nuts. It was funny.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

I think for the past couple of weeks I was contacting her far more often, and then when I stopped for a day she started asking "how was your day yesterday, how are you feeling, what did you do, where did you go, what did you eat, how are you feeling again etc " Then there was less confusion about when she was returning.

Now for the past 2 days she is saying "Go f your [email protected]#$%$!"

Which led me to explain again and again I am not that great at web development and needed some help as the other web person found a different job. .. Nothing on Earth is happening. But she still seems mad.

So I am not sure what to make of that.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Possibilities:

She's got OM or she's got her eye on one so she accuses you of the same. 

OR she's basically abandoned you so the possibility of you banging someone else is a real possibility.

OR lastly (and this is my guess) she's just angry and this is her nit picking to give her yet another reason to say there longer.

The solution is the same....go dark or go modified but tell her NOTHING but what you bought at the grocery store when she asks. Talk LESS.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

I agree, I think it is your third choice as well.


If I had to guess this is how I would sum up the situation.

A. She is actually confused about us. She is not a long term thinker and acts more based on immediate emotions. She is for some reason bringing up silly arguments we had 2 years ago. She seems to have forgotten all of the good times. Once again, when she left everything was great. She did not leave the country to leave me, but to see her dad one more time. She hates conflict, and that is all we have been doing.

B. Now that she is there, she is enjoying the attention she is getting. We also have a very beautiful blond hair blue eyed baby that she loves to show off. 

C. Her life with me is basically me, her, and our son. She has friends, but some moved, some lived further away etc. I go to work and she is more lonely with just our son.

Back home she is with her sister in law, 3 nephews that are adults now who she basically raised, her mom, and tons of aunts, uncles, cousins, god mother, etc. They all lavish attention on our son and she enjoys it. Always lots of gossip, people coming and going etc.

I go through phases of thinking that sometimes change by the hour.. Angry she seems to be playing this game and I am alone.. Sympathy as her dad just died.. A lack of trust as she changed her date of return several times. Worry as there is a possibility she might not return and I will not see my son.. Especially after reading this forum thoughts there might be someone else? Thoughts of divorce on my end.. Thoughts of understanding.. Just completely lost.


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## The Count (Aug 14, 2011)

Jesus Christ!

She's kidnapped your Son and fled to Brazil, and your main priority is trying to work out what she means by saying things like "I'm not sure if I love you". 

Erm, you need to have a very serious, very swift, readjustment of your priorities my man. You need to get onto the police and report this so it's on record when it comes to your custody battle. Assuming of course that you can actually get your Son back in your own country. 

Of course, you cannot under any circumstances give her so much as a sniff of your concerns, otherwise she'll probably vanish. It's imperative you keep your cool and suck the mop for the time being. But you need to get this on record. 

I don't want to seem unduly harsh on you, but most people in the early stages of a very rocky patch will endlessly scrutinise the words and behaviour of their spouse, twisting themselves into all manner of contortions and reading all manner of things into every single trivial exchange trying to read the tea leaves and discern their intentions. 

Your wife has run off to Brazil with your Son ffs. Picking over the minute details of your telephone conversations is rather like complaining about the colour of the drapes in Guantanamo Bay.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

The Count said:


> Jesus Christ!
> 
> She's kidnapped your Son and fled to Brazil, and your main priority is trying to work out what she means by saying things like "I'm not sure if I love you".


Im trying not to think of that route too much yet to be honest. I still have time if things do not turn around within the next week or 2. 

She went to brazil twice before with our son and always returned. She went now to see her dad who just died. 

I am trying to approach this the easiest way possible. Her just returning. I have studied the hague convention, laws, possibilities etc. We are talking about a huge mess. 

To be honest I do not want to divorce her. But if this drags out much longer I will not have a choice. I have her address, phone numbers, etc. She is not hiding, but just acting like an overly emotional female at this point.


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## The Count (Aug 14, 2011)

I just posted a very detailed reply to you, and then accidentally deleted it by somehow skipping forwards on my browser. I hate this bloody laptop.....

Basically I was trying to say don't let her grief become an excuse for her to behave as she pleases. Don't let her blackmail you, and any sign that she's trying to use her emotional state as leverage to keep this situation going on indefinitely should be treated with the utmost suspicion.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

The Count said:


> Jesus Christ!
> 
> She's kidnapped your Son and fled to Brazil, and your main priority is trying to work out what she means by saying things like "I'm not sure if I love you".
> 
> ...


Kidnapped the son?

And put an international kidnapping on the police record without her getting a whiff of it?


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## The Count (Aug 14, 2011)

I'll grant the second point doesn't make a whole lot of sense on closer inspection. Somewhat contradictory, but writing "keep a diary of events" seemed a bit tame given the gravity of the situation. If this escalates then he needs some kind of official acknowledgement of what's gone on. If he does go through a divorce and brings this event up, then the judge might want to know why he didn't report it to the authorities. I don't envy his position at all, it's a very tricky one to navigate. 

As for the first point, she's gone off to a foreign country with the man's child, and is keeping him there against the Fathers wishes and seemingly has no interest in bringing him back. What would you call it? An extended loan? Open ended holiday? Extreme hide and seek?


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

Why, pray tell, did you not accompany her? Her father died for Pete's sake. As her husband you should be there with her helping with preparations. I would not be so sure about you as a mate at that point either.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

The Count said:


> I don't envy his position at all, it's a very tricky one to navigate.
> 
> As for the first point, she's gone off to a foreign country with the man's child, and is keeping him there against the Fathers wishes and seemingly has no interest in bringing him back. What would you call it? An extended loan? Open ended holiday? Extreme hide and seek?


Agree it is tricky.

But, she has taken her child, of whom she is a legal guardian, to visit family at a time of bereavement, with the other parents consent. They are not divorced or separated. There is no discussion or argument over custody. The child was not seized. At this point it is NOT kidnapping.

If the child had stayed at home, would the OP be kidnapping?

If at some stage in future the marriage ends, then yes custody gets complex. That becomes tricky. But you are not there yet. 

His wife has lost a parent, one of the hardest life experiences we go through. She needs support and time, not accusations of kidnapping for taking her own child.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

BFGuru said:


> Why, pray tell, did you not accompany her? Her father died for Pete's sake. As her husband you should be there with her helping with preparations. I would not be so sure about you as a mate at that point either.


Well, I paid for her to go In November, and the just paid again for her to go in February. It is not exactly cheap. I barely could afford to send her this last time. I emptied out our savings for her to go. Then I returned somethings I purchased to cover the rent, utilities etc. I own a seasonal business and I finally had work to do to dig out of the hole we found ourselves in. 

I was also irritated because I was always the one asking about her father's condition, and I asked her to call the doctor there and she would not. She was just getting info from her mom, and her mom is always overly dramatic so nobody trusts her. Her major concern a week before going was Valentines Day, and where we are going what we are doing etc. So I was the guy saying no to what she wanted to do as I was being extra cautious to put money aside so she could go without even telling her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> her mom is always overly dramatic so nobody trusts her.


Yet, you married her anyway.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Agree it is tricky.


I agree. And once again, she did not leave on bad terms with me. It was probably the best time of our lives and marriage. She always wanted to be by my side, we were taking our son everywhere, we were getting closer and closer. 

A quick rundown of her trip is this..
a. Wanted to go for 2 weeks to say goodbye to dad.
b. 1.5 weeks in she said she is coming home as agreed, misses me, she feels a lot better she got to say goodbye, dad is now in a coma.
c. next day I ask when her flight arrives and she says she is now staying 1 more week.
d. Next day she says she is staying until everything is over, no matter how long it takes.
e. Dad passed, and in Brazil it is a bit different. She had to dress the dead body, clean him etc. She said this killed her inside.
f.She then said she is returning day after the wake.
g. She then said she is staying an extra 2 weeks, wants to stay for easter.
h. She is then returning before easter to be with me.
i. She is returning day after easter again.
j. She is not sure when she is returning, not sure if she loves me anymore.

All of our conflict has been over these changing dates. 

I did speak to her nephew who is 20 and who lives in the house with her now, and I asked how she is doing, what she is doing etc. He said he had no idea anything was wrong and is sure she is returning. He said she always says great things about me and she never goes anywhere without our son and his mom. He said she has been crying a lot and is very shaken by the death of her father.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Yet, you married her anyway.


Lol, I had no idea about this until years later. I met her mom and she seemed like traditional old lady married to her husband for 50 years.. Her mom also lost her son and husband in the past year so I try to look past it.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Well, been going a little dark and she messaged me last night saying she has never been this sad in her life, and I just said I know, it sucks.. have a good night..

Then this morning she messaged me saying she has been crying all morning, I asked why, and she said "forget it".. Instead of prying I just said "ok"

Then a few hours later she messages me asking what I am doing, where am I , with who, and I just said hanging out, I am fine, you don't need to check up on me.. She said ok, and that has been it for the past few hours.. I am not contacting her and just keeping it short. 

Tables seem to be turning a bit, but who knows what is going on.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Well, been going a little dark and she messaged me last night saying she has never been this sad in her life, and I just said I know, it sucks.. have a good night..
> 
> Then this morning she messaged me saying she has been crying all morning, I asked why, and she said "forget it".. Instead of prying I just said "ok"
> 
> ...


Sigh, this just seems so cruel to me. By not being there for her at such a difficult time, I truly believe you are doing incalculable damage to your marriage.

There are times when going dark is a good strategy, but this is not one of them.

I have lost my father. Maybe you haven't, so you don't understand how it feels?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Sigh, this just seems so cruel to me. By not being there for her at such a difficult time, I truly believe you are doing incalculable damage to your marriage.
> 
> There are times when going dark is a good strategy, but this is not one of them.
> 
> I have lost my father. Maybe you haven't, so you don't understand how it feels?


I lost my mother.

Well, I always respond.. Just tired of talking.. Not sure what to say..I am not ignoring her, just not prying. I asked why she is crying and that seemed to make her mad. So I let it be. I am giving her space that she seems to want. When I talk to her it just leads me to asking what her plan is, and if she still does not know it ruins my day and night.

I dont even know how she is feeling.. is she in pain mourning? is there someone else? I was really hurt when within one day she said she was returning then did a 180 and said she is not. I was nice, kind, caring all day, said I was excited to see her, and then she said "Ah, we need to talk.. I am not coming"

She knows she can talk to me about her dad anytime, we have been for years. At this point I feel toyed with.. I am coming back before easter, the day after, not coming back, not sure if I am in love..Not sure about anything..

It just makes me feel a little better to detach a bit. I really do not know what else to do. She has hurt me a lot. It's abusive just to mention keeping the child overseas, whether mad at the moment of not. Maybe she needs some time to sit and think instead of arguing with me.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Wazza have you read this guys story? His wife has given him the I don't love you speech and has been gone for WEEKS if not months without a hint of when she's coming home if ever.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> Wazza have you read this guys story? His wife has given him the I don't love you speech and has been gone for WEEKS if not months without a hint of when she's coming home if ever.


That's how I am starting to feel.. Been 5 weeks, and 3 days before her return she pulls the "not sure if I am in love with you"

I almost begged her to come back and was just met with "no".

When i told her I was excited tio see her, I was met with "nah, not coming. Changed my mind"

So then why be jealous to see what I am doing all day?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Wazza,

What is wrong with you?

If she doesn't show up tomorrow, he needs to head to Brazil.

Where is your head?

I've lost both my parents.

I also know what it feels like when a spouse starts to consider "alternate endings"


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> So then why be jealous to see what I am doing all day?


We've already discussed this. She needed a reason to be mad at you so she could stay there longer.

She's cake eating AND blameshifting.

My husband lost both parents and he never put their needs over mine. He didn't just disappear for 5 weeks even though they don't live here.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wow, just found a lot of info out..

I talked to her nephew (my wife does not know we talk) and he told me my wife changed her ticket to April 9. 

To make things worse, her mom, who is crazy, controlling, and the most selfish woman on earth, has been trying to convince my wife to stay so that she is not alone. She has even been trying to find a job for her..

And now my wife is staying with her again.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Fly over there, find your kid and bring him back. Ask our consulate for assistance if you can't handle it yourself.

Once you're back in the states you'll give your wife a final ultimatum.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

keko said:


> Fly over there, find your kid and bring him back. Ask our consulate for assistance if you can't handle it yourself.
> 
> Once you're back in the states you'll give your wife a final ultimatum.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I hope it can work like this.. I am calling the embassy tomorrow. 

Maybe some people on here realize why i did not want her staying this long.

Her mom tried for years to break up her brothers marriage as well.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Married I am sorry if my posts have hurt you.

You have heard me out. There is nothing more I can say. I wish the best for you.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

It's like I have been living in a fog..

What I know of her mom.

Broke up my wife's first marriage when she was 22.

Tried to break up her sons marriage for years, even though he has 3 kids. She still hates his wife.

And now I found out she is getting job applications for my wife, and asking her to move in with her..

That is why my wife started acting so strange.. So confused.. her mom has been putting things in her head daily.. My wife was never confused before..

Now her mom is alone after 50 years of marriage so is making my wife feel like she must stay..And my wife seems to be going along with it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If there is any way at all for you to go there you really need to. With you there it will be harder for her mother to put this presure on her. 

Her mother is in a bad state right now and hanging on to you wife. What other relatives are there who can live with her mom for a while? Are there any?


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

You may have to get creative on how you get your kid back. If you just go to where she is staying and ask for the child back, odds are she won't just hand it over. Not only that but she'll also use you coming over there as an excuse to stay even longer, maybe forever.

You can possibly wait for her to go out without the kid and once she's gone for a few minutes, go to her place(if you know the family member she's staying with) and ask for the kid. If they get suspicious just tell them your wife is waiting downstairs. Once you have the kid, run back to the embassy.

Here is another poster that was once in a similar situation as you, its worth the read. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/50252-blindsided.html


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> Wow, just found a lot of info out..
> 
> I talked to her nephew (my wife does not know we talk) and he told me my wife changed her ticket to April 9.
> 
> ...


It's been clear it was going this way all along.

Get down there and get your kid back.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> It's been clear it was going this way all along.
> 
> Get down there and get your kid back.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

The only thing I can do is go there to convince her or file a hague abducation case. I cant just go take the kid to an embassy . It has to go through courts.I called and got a lot of info. She tols me she is thinking and might return april 9 if she can remember the good times. I also spoke with mutual family friends who agree with me and will talk to her
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

She's buying time and believing her is a foolish move on your part. Since you two aren't divorced, there isn't a custody agreement in place. So she didn't kidnap the kid there, and you can do the same thing to bring him back here.

You tried to nice her back before, how did that work out? 

Good luck.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

keko said:


> She's buying time and believing her is a foolish move on your part. Since you two aren't divorced, there isn't a custody agreement in place. So she didn't kidnap the kid there, and you can do the same thing to bring him back here.
> 
> You tried to nice her back before, how did that work out?
> 
> Good luck.


April 9th doesn't mean any more to her than April 1st.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

keko said:


> She's buying time and believing her is a foolish move on your part. Since you two aren't divorced, there isn't a custody agreement in place. So she didn't kidnap the kid there, and you can do the same thing to bring him back here.
> 
> You tried to nice her back before, how did that work out?
> 
> Good luck.


Well I guess I could somehow get his passport and him and runaway but it does not seem likely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> April 9th doesn't mean any more to her than April 1st.


Yep she's not coming back then either. She's just buying time now until she establishes herself there.

With mama's success rate dealing with your wife will be a cakewalk. You aren't there.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

MM321, This is just another opinion, but you need to get down there ASAP and steal your W away from the toxic mom for a few days and try to reconnect. Get hold of the kid's passport and if she doesn't come home willingly stick around a bit to see if you get the opportunity to make a break with your kid. Offer to take him to the beach...whatever to get him away from the family. Then take off. Do you have a copy of your kid's passport? Check with the Dept of State and see if you can order a replacement.

Not sure what the Hague convention protocols for this type of thing are, but I would look it up and make sure she hasn't been down there long enough to establish residence back in Brazil.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Tron said:


> MM321, This is just another opinion, but you need to get down there ASAP and steal your W away from the toxic mom for a few days and try to reconnect. Get hold of the kid's passport and if she doesn't come home willingly stick around a bit to see if you get the opportunity to make a break with your kid. Take him to the beach...whatever. Do you have a copy of your kid's passport? Check with the Dept of State and see if you can order a replacement.
> 
> Not sure what the Hague convention protocols for this type of thing are, but I would look it up and make sure she hasn't been down there long enough to establish residence back in Brazil.


I talked to the state dept today and they told me I can file whenever I want, but waiting a week or 2 will not hurt anything.

My wife just seems a different person like a light bulb that just went out.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Well I guess I could somehow get his passport and him and runaway but it does not seem likely.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Forget the passport, just grab your kid and head back to the embassy. If you contact our embassy before hand, I'm sure they can write you up a temporary passport or do the necessary paperwork to bring your kid back into the states.

You need to be smart and proactive about it. Just sitting home and hoping for a miracle is a disaster in the making.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> but waiting a week or 2 will not hurt anything.


:slap:


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

keko said:


> :slap:


Mm321. 

May I ask you a question? What do you think your wife would do if you brought the kid back to the U.S.?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Tron said:


> Mm321.
> 
> May I ask you a question? What do you think your wife would do if you brought the kid back to the U.S.?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have never been in this situation before.. But I just go grab my kid, hail a cab to an embassy, they give me a passport, take a cab to the airport, and hop on a plane?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> I have never been in this situation before.. But I just go grab my kid, hail a cab to an embassy, they give me a passport, take a cab to the airport, and hop on a plane?


I would.

Your wife would be back in no time.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Well one issue is you cannot get a passport if you are the only parent without extensive paperwork. They don't just hand you a passport in 10 minutes.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

Kidnapping is a VERY bad idea. You can't hide out in the embassy, this is not the movies. Eventually you have to come out and there are treaties that cover these things and you will have to take it to court in Brazil. 

This is a very delicate situation, you need to convince her to come home anyway you can and then you can take legal action. When she returns, confiscate the passport. If you try to kidnap him and fail, you could loose him both in Brazil, who will expel you and will not get custody in US court after that stunt. 

You have to work with the family to get them to help you convince her to come home. If you kidnap the child, you will in all likelihood get caught and go to jail in a foreign country. I know folks want you to be proactive, but kidnapping is a STUPID idea, don't do it! Instead be positive and work to get her to use the 9 April 2013 ticket. Also you need to contact an attorney to see about an emergency custody order, in the event she returns, so she can't return with child.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

VFW said:


> Kidnapping is a VERY bad idea. You can't hide out in the embassy, this is not the movies. Eventually you have to come out and there are treaties that cover these things and you will have to take it to court in Brazil.
> 
> This is a very delicate situation, you need to convince her to come home anyway you can and then you can take legal action. When she returns, confiscate the passport. If you try to kidnap him and fail, you could loose him both in Brazil, who will extradite you and will not get custody in US court after that stunt.
> 
> You have to work with the family to get them to help you convince her to come home. If you kidnap the child, you will in all likelihood get caught and go to jail in a foreign country. I know folks want you to be proactive, but kidnapping is a STUPID idea, don't do it! Instead be positive and work to get her to use the 9 April 2013 ticket. Also you need to contact an attorney to see about an emergency custody order, in the event she returns, so she can't return with child.


I fail to see your logic.

The kid is his and there are no child custody agreements he'd be going against. How is that kidnapping? It's not. You probably watch too many fantasy movies if you really expect her to keep her promise for April 9th.

You clearly haven't got the slightest clue on how this is going to play out.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Well one issue is you cannot get a passport if you are the only parent without extensive paperwork. They don't just hand you a passport in 10 minutes.


When you're in a foreign country and in a tough spot, things will get done in a way that wouldn't when you're here in states.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

keko said:


> I fail to see your logic.
> 
> The kid is his and there are no child custody agreements he'd be going against. How is that kidnapping? It's not. You probably watch to many fantasy movies if you really expect her to keep her promise for April 9th.
> 
> You clearly haven't got the slightest clue on how this is going to play out.


Listen Cowboy, you can't do this in the US either. The family will call the police, who will call the port authority and say that he is kidnapping the child. Who do you think they are going to believe? This is a BAD idea. If you want to PM me directly fine, I will not answer you again on someone else's thread (don't want to kidnap his thread too). This is not about me and you. However, suggesting that someone should kidnap a child in a foreign country on a public forum in NOT a good idea. I plead with the OP to not do this.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

VFW said:


> Listen Cowboy, you can't do this in the US either. The family will call the police, who will call the port authority and say that he is kidnapping the child. Who do you think they are going to believe? This is a BAD idea. If you want to PM me directly fine, I will not answer you again on someone else's thread (don't want to kidnap his thread too). This is not about me and you. However, suggesting that someone should kidnap a child in a foreign country on a public forum in NOT a good idea. I plead with the OP to not do this.


Yes you can. Him and his wife aren't divorced so there isn't a custody agreement in place for him or her to violate. Just as she took the kid overseas, he can take him back or even around the world.

The only way one can file a complaint is if the child custody agreement was violated or if there is a strong belief that the kid has been abducted out of the main residence of the child (The house where OP is currently in).

You need to educate yourself before you give incorrect info to others.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

VFW, 

I am not familiar with the law here and maybe we can get an International lawyer to respond on this thread , but if you are an American citizen (dad) bringing an American citizen (child) back home to the USA. I don't think it would be generally be considered kidnapping especially without a custody agreement or divorce.

Granted, if the W (who I suspect is a Brazilian citizen) has a problem with it, before he is on a plane with the kid headed to the US calls the Brazilian police and reports a kidnapping and they pick him up, then he may have an issue with them and could indeed have a serious problem.

MM321, The key is to get down there and get a feel for what is going on. If what your W's cousin is telling you the truth, you need to get your W away from her mom for a time and get her to come back home. You aren't going to help yourself just waiting around here hoping she'll return. She has already told you she isn't sure she loves you. You cannot afford to F ' around too long or things are going to get really nasty and even more expensive. Hiring a lawyer to force your W and kid to come back to the US is going to cost you a lot more money than a plane ticket to Brazil.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

She legally took the child out of the country, though what she is doing now is not. Legally he can fly to Brazil and bring a case in court there. US law doesn't mean squat in Brazil, they are a sovereign nation. If he tries to remove the child without her permission she can call the police. The child will not leave until the Brazilian court decides the case. If you abduct a child in Brazil and don't make it out of the country, you will go to jail. That does not help the OP at all, two wrongs don't make a right. 

Also we do have an extradition treaty with Brazil, he could get sent back for prosecution if he did get out. Neither of us are attorneys, so I suggest you consult legal representation and not two anonymous guys on a forum. Also anything you say on here can be used in a court of law. If you admit to attempted kidnapping, it would not bode well with you in a court of law. OP think very carefully, before pulling something foolish.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Is the child US citizen only or holds both Br and US citizenships?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Just USA.

The state dept said the only thing possible they can do is open a Hague convention case. it takes about 6 weeks, and they try to mediate first . Of course there can be many appeals, but I do not think my wife would go that route. I feel she just needs to wake up.

I have been talking to her family (not her mom) and they are all calling me and trying to help convince her to return. They all say she is just confused and they have never seen her like this. They do not understand. 

A married couple that she has been friends with her for her entire life is having lunch with her tomorrow to give me more insight into the situation and trying to guide her. 

As for my correspondence with my wife she messages me all day to see what I am up to, but when the conversation turns to asking what is going on she shuts down. She just tells me she has not eaten, feels sick, throws up all day and cries all day, which is what her family has told me as well. She said she needs one more week to get her head straight.

I do not know if I need to be supportive due to what happened, or just be more laid back and not pressure her if she really is confused.


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

Her dad died, her mother is a coniving manipulator. Of course she is confused. I can't get past this, bills or not, she should have never been left to navigate this loss alone. 

My father in law passed away and I dropped everything to support his son and wife. I went as far as bathing the man his last week on earth. He died in my arms. And in spite of all of the support I gave him, my husband still became confused. It thrust him into an emotional tourmoil and he still walked, claiming I did not support him in his time of need.

Yes, she is upset. SHe isn't going to eat. She is going to cry. You do not need to ask why she is behaving this way. Her father just died. You need to assume this is why she is crying. And get down there. YESTERDAY. She needs you to be her rock. Right now her family is all that is familiar during one of the greatest losses a person can experience. You need to be that familiarity. 

Pull out the credit card if you must, but get there. Hold her and tell her you are not going to let her go through this alone, even if she doesn't know how she feels about you right now. If she walks, you will at least know you have done all that you can to save this marriage, and be close enough to get your son out of the country if the worst case scenereo happens.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Get down there ASAP. No kid snatching, just you inserting yourself on site between her and the evil mother


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

I wasn't going to post here again, but I have to endorse what both BFGuru and Shaggy have said.

Two sides of the same coin.

BFGuru is saying what I was trying to say, but wording it much better.

And having started typing...please think carefully before you do anything of questionable legality in the event your wife elects not to return.


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

Go get her and your child. Every day you wait counts against you in a custody battle.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> I have been talking to her family (not her mom) and they are all calling me and trying to help convince her to return. They all say she is just confused and they have never seen her like this. They do not understand.
> 
> A married couple that she has been friends with her for her entire life is having lunch with her tomorrow to give me more insight into the situation and trying to guide her.
> 
> ...


MM321,
This sounds more and more like pure grief to me. I hope you get the same feedback from your wife's friends tomorrow. Regardless, you should be on your way there tomorrow night. You are her H and should be there for support. You should have been there 2 weeks ago. If things go well, and she comes home with you, by not being there for her right now, I am very concerned that you are creating a serious wedge in your relationship. The kind of wedge that will breed long term resentment and kill a marriage. It already appears to have impacted how she feels about you, crazy MIL or not.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Tron said:


> MM321,
> This sounds more and more like pure grief to me. I hope you get the same feedback from your wife's friends tomorrow. Regardless, you should be on your way there tomorrow night. You are her H and should be there for support.


Ok

I looked up tickets and can get one for this weekend.

I am not going to try and snatch my kid back, try to get a new passport, try to get on a plane.. Just crazy.. And then if I got back home, do what with him? My goal is to get my family back.

Here is my question and some more facts.

A. She has no money there, and her mom has little money at this point. You cannot just simply and easily get a job.

B. She does not get along well with her mom at all (Her mom told her she hoped she was dead just 2 weeks ago) and my wife ran away. Long term it seems impossible.

C. Is it possible she just really does need more time? I do not see myself, at this point, going and pressuring her and she will say "Ok, I love you. Lets go home"

D. I hinted that I wanted to come visit, and she said "Please , all I asked for was a little space. You keep pushing me"

I mean I do not see it being like the movies.. I get off the plane, she is filled with joy, we return as a happy family. 

I just have a feeling inside that maybe she needs to miss me and see real life. 

And a couple more weeks for a hague convention case makes no difference according to the state dept.


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## HappyKaty (Nov 20, 2012)

I'd go get my kid, and let her decide what she wants to do.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> D. I hinted that I wanted to come visit, and she said "Please , all I asked for was a little space. You keep pushing me"


DISLIKE

You simply MUST stop this.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> DISLIKE
> 
> You simply MUST stop this.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Stop what?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> Stop what?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Quit hinting/telling her what you're going to do.

She is not on your side in this.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Quit hinting/telling her what you're going to do.
> 
> She is not on your side in this.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

At this point I almost feel like ending everything half the time. Just lost.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> At this point I almost feel like ending everything half the time. Just lost.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She may respond to your strength in this matter.

But, you have to show her some first.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

I almost feel that is the better route. She knows what she is doing wrong and if I keep begging or fly across the world to beg more it looka pretty weak. It feels pathetic inside.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> I almost feel that is the better route. She knows what she is doing wrong and if I keep begging or fly across the world to beg more it looka pretty weak. It feels pathetic inside.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If you don't go there, you're enabling her.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> If you don't go there, you're enabling her.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> I am not going to try and snatch my kid back, try to get a new passport, try to get on a plane.. Just crazy.. And then if I got back home, do what with him? My goal is to get my family back.


If it is your goal to get them back home then the best way to make sure that happens is for you and your son to wind up back home. Not recommending kidnapping but realize that your wife is most likely going to go where her son is, regardless of how she feels about you. 

_What would you do with your son?_ The same thing everyone else (single dads, single moms, working moms etc.) does with their kids. I am not sure what the question is. Are you interested in losing your family? Where you live in the US and have your wife and son live in Brazil with no means of support and no money? If it were me there are only two choices...(1) you in Brazil with your family or (2) you in the US with your family. Maybe it's just me, but I need to be in my kid's life.




marriedman321 said:


> Here is my question and some more facts.
> 
> A. She has no money there, and her mom has little money at this point. You cannot just simply and easily get a job.


This is good for you and if your wife is keen on staying in Brazil this is leverage. How are they going to live there without any support. It may be cheaper to live in Brazil than here but you still have to have money...It goes without saying that if she chooses to stay in Brazil for an extended period of time and doesn't let you bring your boy home, and you cannot stay there then you may need to cut off all funding. This is you not enabling her to walk away.




marriedman321 said:


> B. She does not get along well with her mom at all (Her mom told her she hoped she was dead just 2 weeks ago) and my wife ran away. Long term it seems impossible.


This is good, but in her current state no way to know how good because YOU AREN'T THERE!




marriedman321 said:


> C. Is it possible she just really does need more time? I do not see myself, at this point, going and pressuring her and she will say "Ok, I love you. Lets go home"


She is obviously not dealing with the grief very well and how much better is it going to get with a crazy selfish mom in her ear every second of every day. You already know what that woman is capable of. Her mother's and your interests ARE NOT THE SAME. Your W also needs to hear a voice of reason...and that is YOU, her husband. Be there for support first...pressure later. You need some time to reconnect with her because she has been gone for almost 6 weeks. This needs to happen wherever she is, not by telephone or text message. 




marriedman321 said:


> D. I hinted that I wanted to come visit, and she said "Please , all I asked for was a little space. You keep pushing me"


If you have not been very supportive or sensitive during this time, which seems pretty obvious from her comments and your posts, then her comments make sense. Don't go to pressure and push, but to support and be a loving husband. And recognize that if she doesn't just let you go home with your son, then you may have to stay quite a bit longer than you want to. And listen to Conrad, DON'T HINT, JUST DO IT.




marriedman321 said:


> I just have a feeling inside that maybe she needs to miss me and see real life.


She hasn't missed you for 6 weeks. That is a long time to be without your spouse. Money is tight and crazy mom is finding your W a job. My question to you...how is that working for you so far? 

You haven't really expanded much on your/her history or current situation, so we cannot say one way or the other what real life means to you or her at this stage. For all we know, she may be a mail order bride that you found and rescued from out of a favela or someone you picked up off the street in Copacabana. If you want the best advice maybe you can expand on that. If you aren't already on a plane then maybe type up a history for us and we can give you some better ideas. 




marriedman321 said:


> And a couple more weeks for a hague convention case makes no difference according to the state dept.


On this I think we can all agree. A Hague Convention case is a last resort. It will be contentious and expensive. You will likely win, but is it worth the aggravation and cost if you can take care of the situation personally right now.


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

She does not want your hints. She wants strength. 

She does not get to take your son halfway across the world, call and say "I don't know if I want to come back" and then sit there pretty thinking you will ignore this simply because she asked for space.

Get on that plane. Walk back into her life. Regardless of her reaction. You be the strong one. She is not. She is weak and confused. Stand tall, and say "I am here because you need me. Regardless of if you want me, you need me and as your husband I have vowed to honor and cherish you. Now, stop pushing me away in your grief, because I am not letting you go through this alone". 

No asking how she is feeling. No questions. Simply assert yourself. If after the grieving process is over, she still wants out, so be it, but you have earned your way out and proven just and done what was needed for your family. Secondly, you have more authority over your son if you are there. 

Get there. Hold that woman and tell her it's o.k. to cry. Even if her relationship with her dad was strained, his death now means there is no reconciliation. There are no more second chances with him. But there are with you.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

BFGuru said:


> She does not want your hints. She wants strength.
> 
> She does not get to take your son halfway across the world, call and say "I don't know if I want to come back" and then sit there pretty thinking you will ignore this simply because she asked for space.
> 
> ...


BFGuru...Well said.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Thanks BFGURU, I think that is what I have to do.

And Tron, my wife was a teacher at private schools for 12 years, went to private schools, solid family etc. I met her at the English school she was currently working at.


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

You can do this MM. 

Remember, there is no right or wrong way to grieve and they all work through it differently, but you being there, I truly believe will make a difference. I wish you the best of luck. I will be thinking of you.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> Thanks BFGURU, I think that is what I have to do.
> 
> And Tron, my wife was a teacher at private schools for 12 years, went to private schools, solid family etc. I met her at the English school she was currently working at.


OK. All the more reason to follow through and be there for her. This is your marriage and your family. Get down there and do what God meant for you to do. Don't ask, just do it.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

I wanted to thank everyone for their help.

I purchased my ticket and will be there Friday am. 10 hour flight.

I have not told her nor will I, but I think I really do need to se her and be with her. 

I already feel much better taking action, as sitting and wondering was becoming unbearable.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> I wanted to thank everyone for their help.
> 
> I purchased my ticket and will be there Friday am. 10 hour flight.
> 
> ...


Good work.

When you're on the ground there, you'll know what to do.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Ugg. Sick feeling.. Just said goodnight to her and she said "Night hun, watching soap operas on my moms lap"


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Ugg. Sick feeling.. Just said goodnight to her and she said "Night hun, watching soap operas on my moms lap"


Wow. Yeah not a good sign. Sounds like she's regressed back to her childhood with dear mommy enabling it.


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

Not so sure it's a bad sign though. Remember, they are both grieving and clinging to the familiar. Mothering made mom feel better, being mothered made daughter feel better when all was well with the world and Dad was still alive. In some respects, they may need that soap opera time, but I'd still put my foot down at her getting a job unless you desire to move there as well and be a family together, but mamma can not move in.

Take a deep breath. You have already taken action. You are going to be there soon enough.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Yes, I am hoping it is more of a "leaving you soon" bonding..Still hurts to hear this.. 

I am counting on her coming back with me, I purchased my ticket for the same time and date..


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

BF,

It's a bad sign.

But, the reality of her strong supportive husband on the scene is her best shot.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

You cannot easily come between family members. It is a dynamic you have to respect, IMO.

Going is exactly the right thing.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

marriedman321 said:


> Ugg. Sick feeling.. Just said goodnight to her and she said "Night hun, watching soap operas on my moms lap"


Oh yea, she needs you there. Her mom is just sucking her in. It won't be long before her mom sucks the life out of her.

I get that her mother is alone and scared. I'm sure she is experiencing a lot of grief right now since her husband died. Now it sounds like the mom is clinging to your wife. 

Maybe you can get with the family and find some solution for the mother. Is there anyone who can stay with her? Maybe they can find a college student who needs a place to live. I don't know someone who can live there as a companion, at least for a while in exchange for free room.

I'm glad you are going. Both your wife and your son need you.


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

I can agree with the husband being on scene. 

For now, she is in crisis mode though, and mom is all she has.

I guess, I look at it as, my own mother is toxic. I don't visit her across the country for a reason. HOWEVER, I also recognized I was drowning after we officially separated. My grief, my bills, my inability to organize anything with three kids in tow and when my mother drove all the way here...I clung to her. I know she is not the best thing for me, but she was all I had. I know it's different as my stbx was already officially gone, but crisis is crisis. It's not the best solution, that's for sure, but again, I truly believe for every person and family grieving is a very intimate and personal thing. And families do that together. 

However MM, you are family, so you being down there to work through this will be a good thing.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

You need to think about the long term future. Who is going to take care of the mother when your family returns to the US?

Nothing would please me more than to have my MIL a long way away in another country . But asking your wife to abandon her mother is a big deal. What arrangements can you make? Might you need to relocate the MIL to be near you?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

And my wife knows her mom is toxic.. She has told me thousands of times.. Even after hearing all the stories I always had a fear of her mom manipulating my wife, and my wife succumbing. I never feared my wife cheating, but feared her mom.

I cant be too concerned.. During this entire 5 weeks they only spoke for 3 because her mom said horrible things to her and kicked my wife out. 

I am hoping the spark will return as soon as I see my wife. That is my big hope. And when she sees my son and I together I cant imagine she will not be very emotional.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> And my wife knows her mom is toxic.. She has told me thousands of times.. Even after hearing all the stories I always had a fear of her mom manipulating my wife, and my wife succumbing. I never feared my wife cheating, but feared her mom.
> 
> I cant be too concerned.. During this entire 5 weeks they only spoke for 3 because her mom said horrible things to her and kicked my wife out.
> 
> I am hoping the spark will return as soon as I see my wife. That is my big hope. And when she sees my son and I together I cant imagine she will not be very emotional.


Be cautious

"Knowing something" intellectually doesn't mean squat when it comes to emotional decision-making.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> You need to think about the long term future. Who is going to take care of the mother when your family returns to the US?


this is what her mom does.. 

Asks my wife all the time when she is visiting.

When my wife visits, even this time, she makes plans with my wife then a minute later finds something to do with someone else. It seems now that she is trying to pull my wife away, so NOW she is close and makes time.

An example, they were supposed to go to the zoo with my son. A minute later the phone rings and she makes a different plan with someone else and tells my wife sorry.

ANother example.. She saoid she is having heart pains.. My wife calls family members to come pick her up to go to the hospital. Then her mom just puts on her pajamas and goes to bed without saying anything, while the couple that left dinner at a restaurant and rushed over are never even told.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> this is what her mom does..
> 
> Asks my wife all the time when she is visiting.
> 
> ...


And you wonder why your wife has an issue with consistency?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Conrad said:


> And you wonder why your wife has an issue with consistency?


Not enough likes for this.

Marriedman you've got your work cut out for you. Your wife LONGS for that connection with her mom regardless of how toxic she is. THIS is how mommy dearest gains control over her kids. My toxic parents used money but this works just as well too.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> Not enough likes for this.
> 
> Marriedman you've got your work cut out for you. Your wife LONGS for that connection with her mom regardless of how toxic she is. THIS is how mommy dearest gains control over her kids. My toxic parents used money but this works just as well too.


If she really wants to stay and ruin her life, then I cant really help that. I do think if she sees me the love will return and she will remember the good times.. As of now her ticket is April 9.. Its my only hope. 

I have never felt this sick before in my life knowing this crazy woman is now living with my son.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Which is why I PRAY you get him out of there with or without her.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> this is what her mom does..
> 
> Asks my wife all the time when she is visiting.
> 
> ...


Hey MM, you know I always thought it unlikely this was about another man. I thought it was about strain in your relationship combined with the pull of your wife's family.

By getting on that plane you are taking exactly the right step for the first one.

For the second...I forsee danger if proper arrangements are not in place for your MIL. More so if she is manipulative, since she will exploit that gap.

At one extreme is leaving her at home alone in Brazil with no care. At the other extreme would be bringing her back to the US to live with you. Both bad news IMO. I'm suggesting you think of some options for making sure she is ok, and they might mean seeking to relocate her.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> At one extreme is leaving her at home alone in Brazil with no care. At the other extreme would be bringing her back to the US to live with you. Both bad news IMO. I'm suggesting you think of some options for making sure she is ok, and they might mean seeking to relocate her.


Her mom is fine and strong.. I think 65. She just needs everyone's attention. She wont come to the US. Cant speak English, wont fly. 

After a while my wife must know she would be in a living hell. I hope she sees this when I am there.

She also has brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, cousins, duaghter in law. HUGE family right down the street. She does not need my wife.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Her mom is fine and strong.. I think 65. She just needs everyone's attention. She wont come to the US. Cant speak English, wont fly.
> 
> After a while my wife must know she would be in a living hell. I hope she sees this when I am there.
> 
> She also has brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, cousins, duaghter in law. HUGE family right down the street. She does not need my wife.


 

Well that should mean proper arrangements are possible without relocation, which is better in all sorts of ways.

Just make sure your wife is happy that your MIL doesn't need her. It doesn't matter what you think. If your wife is not happy, you are forcing a very hard choice, and can easily be painted as the problem by a manipulator. Don't give MIL room to work.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Well that should mean proper arrangements are possible without relocation, which is better in all sorts of ways.
> 
> Just make sure your wife is happy that your MIL doesn't need her. It doesn't matter what you think. If your wife is not happy, you are forcing a very hard choice, and can easily be painted as the problem by a manipulator. Don't give MIL room to work.


My wife lived at home as an adult for a while, and it was so traumatic that she was working 2 jobs to barely pay rent to get away. 

I should have accompanied my wife on this trip. I just did not have the money. 

The other thing that is good that all of her friends and family are on my side, and encouraging my wife to leave her mom.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Well at the airport waiting for my flight. She does not know I am coming. Now that I didnt have time to be instant messaging her today she call 3 times. Lots of anxiety. Not sure if this will go very well or very bad. However she has started calling me pet names again, hun, bear etc. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Fingers crossed for you. You are doing the right thing.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Good luck MM321! 

I really hope this turns out well.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

BTW, What town is she from?


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Breath....relax. You are doing the right thing. Do not let emotions drive you. Good luck brother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Me too. Trying to think positive. Out of curiousity I did ask the state dept about taking my kid out of the country. They said it is not a good idea, and I also need consent forms along with a passport. I remember signing that consent form for my wife 2 years ago. Brazil is strict on the exit where as the usa is strict on entrance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Barra da tijuca section of Rio de Janeiro
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Barra da tijuca section of Rio de Janeiro
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So her family is well off then?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

Fingers crossed for you. Keep us posted.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

I know she went to private school and they had a few maids growing up. I am not sure however of how financially stable her mom still is. It seems she had a nice home but not much extra money with lots of bills.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> Barra da tijuca section of Rio de Janeiro
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I lived in BR for several years as a kid and have some friends that live in Barra da Tijuca. Some family friends in Sao Paulo too. I hope to spend some time there again in Summer 2014 for the Cup. 

Good luck MM. I hope your W is surprised in a good way.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Well at the airport waiting for my flight. She does not know I am coming. Now that I didnt have time to be instant messaging her today she call 3 times. Lots of anxiety. Not sure if this will go very well or very bad. However she has started calling me pet names again, hun, bear etc.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you going to have her pick you up at the airport or just go to where she's staying?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

keko said:


> Are you going to have her pick you up at the airport or just go to where she's staying?


Just go to where she is staying.her nephew is picking me up
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

I'm reminded of that Brazilian custody case where the father waited for years to bring his kid home. I hope nothing like that happens.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Well, made it here and on my last day of the trip.

First day my wife was shocked to see me, and it was a difficult day. She cried, said we need to work things out for our son, but where she stays overseas with him. We fought quite a bit for the first 2 days. It got to the point where I finally gave up and said fine, I am leaving back to USA. 

Then she came to a turning point at that point, and said she is returning, but wants a little free time away from our child, to put him in daycare a couple times a week. So we are all packed and leaving tonight.

I got along great with her family, even her mom who I ended up staying with most of the time. The issue is how her and her mom get along, as they were fighting the entire time, and it seems my wife has a lot of resentment towards her for how she was raised , maybe unloved, by her mom. Just a lot of horrible energy when I am around those 2.

We are not at the point of being in love, but at least they are coming back.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> Well, made it here and on my last day of the trip.
> 
> First day my wife was shocked to see me, and it was a difficult day. She cried, said we need to work things out for our son, but where she stays overseas with him. We fought quite a bit for the first 2 days. It got to the point where I finally gave up and said fine, I am leaving back to USA.
> 
> ...


Good man!

You've got a long road ahead of you, but this was a great first step.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Good move MM. You two have got some work to do when you get back, but it is much easier to work on it if you're together than apart.

It sounds like your W is pretty overwhelmed with baby care and needs a bit of a break soemtimes. This is totally normal and happened after the birth of all 3 of my kids. Working on good communication with your W and keeping the love and romance going during that 3 year stretch with toddlers is really really tough. 

I would recommend you pick up and read a couple books when you guys get back...His Needs, Her Needs and the 5 Love Languages. It would be good for both of you to read them and start working on the marriage. If you are able to get through those with some better understanding of each other you can easily get that spark back in your marriage. It sounds like your wife also has some pretty serious mommy issues. Being away from mom will help but there are some long-term ramifications to that kind of childhood and relationship that may require some counseling for her to work through. 

If you run into issues that you can't seem to work out together, feel free to post again. There is a world of experience and good advice here. Good Luck!


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Another new twist.

So we both arrived to the airport late due to horrible traffic. We said our goodbyes to everyone, packed, and just barely made it on time.

I purchased my own ticket, and she flew on a buddy pass. The problem was that since we arrived so late, another plane with issues moved everyone onto her flight, so there was no room for her. I returned myself.

And this is how my wife communicates.. While leaving my wife and son behind at the airport, she said she will go the following day, not to worry, she promises, and everything will be fine. She gave me her suitcase to take with most of her shoes and clothes, as "insurance" of sorts. I didn't ask, it was her idea.

So, Wednesday rolls around and she is ready to go to the airport. Then she changes her mind, and says she will come Thursday. Then Friday.. Now it is Saturday.

The problem was, since she does not think, our son turned 2 on Thursday, so needed a full price ticket, $2000. Luckily, her buddy pass girlfriend got her another from someone else, to schedule for Saturday. 

At this point, I am just drained, and am actually just tired of all the lies, changed stories, blame shifting, and complete BS. If she comes Saturday I am just not even that into this relationship anymore either. It will be interesting to see how this goes.

During the past few days she also shifted to trying to work it out, not being in love with me, wanting a divorce, and then back to suggesting we start over and get re married on our 4 yr anniversary.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> Another new twist.
> 
> So we both arrived to the airport late due to horrible traffic. We said our goodbyes to everyone, packed, and just barely made it on time.
> 
> I purchased my own ticket, and she flew on a buddy pass. The problem was that since we arrived so late, another plane with issues moved everyone onto her flight, so there was no room for her. I returned myself.


I read this far, you didn't even have to finish.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

What were you thinking?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

So she is in a bad place generally and confused about the marriage.

You have work to do. I cannot imagine everything is all going to be ok in five minutes,, even if she comes home Saturday. Do you know what you want in your head? Do you want to work at the marriage?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> What were you thinking?


Indeed :scratchhead::scratchhead:


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> So she is in a bad place generally and confused about the marriage.
> 
> You have work to do. I cannot imagine everything is all going to be ok in five minutes,, even if she comes home Saturday. Do you know what you want in your head? Do you want to work at the marriage?


Honestly I am not sure. I feel she has Post Pardum Depression, but she is not open to hearing that.. 

All of a sudden, seemingly, I am the reason for all that is bad in her life. Now she keeps mentioning divorce all day, sending me messages, but it seems she is trying to get a rise out of me the way she is doing it.. Or she really wants one. I have no idea.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> What were you thinking?


What was I supposed to do? Miss my flight and be stuck in Rio with no money? Force Delta to put her on the plane?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> What was I supposed to do? Miss my flight and be stuck in Rio with no money? Force Delta to put her on the plane?


A $2000.00 ticket that wasn't transferable?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Honestly I am not sure. I feel she has Post Pardum Depression, but she is not open to hearing that..
> 
> All of a sudden, seemingly, I am the reason for all that is bad in her life. Now she keeps mentioning divorce all day, sending me messages, but it seems she is trying to get a rise out of me the way she is doing it.. Or she really wants one. I have no idea.


Early in the thread, the speculation was of another man. Did you find evidence of that?

I expect your answer to be no, but I do think it is a future risk unless you sort things out.

Therefore, I would push you to work hard at the marriage until such time as you decide you want to divorce.

Let's wait and see if she comes home tomorrow.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> A $2000.00 ticket that wasn't transferable?


She flew to Rio on a buddy pass. Her friend works at Delta. Which means the flight is free, BUT you have to fly on standby. 

Which means you show up at the gate, and if there is a seat you can fly on that flight. If there is no seat, then you have to return another time. There is only one flight leaving Rio to Atlanta nightly. I have been on the phone with Delta several times about this, and that is how it works. 

I was the one speaking with the agent at the counter and he said there was nothing he could do.

Now that an extra day was involved, and my son turned 2, now he can no longer fly on her lap, and Delta is insisting on a ticket for him also. So she procured another buddy pass for him today, and 300 came out of my account. Or it would have been $2000.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Early in the thread, the speculation was of another man. Did you find evidence of that?
> 
> I expect your answer to be no, but I do think it is a future risk unless you sort things out.
> 
> ...


I checked all the phone records, and she only texts me, and calls her mom, and a few other girlfriends I know.

I know she did not physically see anyone while away, BUT she might be having an emotional affair online. I have no proof at all, but it is possible.


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> What was I supposed to do? Miss my flight and be stuck in Rio with no money? Force Delta to put her on the plane?


MM, If you are travelling as a family and one family member gets bumped from a flight, they will typically allow the rest of the family to back out and put all of you on the next flight out. Especially if you paid full fare. Not that unusual. I don't recall how buddy passes on Delta actually work.

You always could have offered to bring your boy back with you, but that is all water under the bridge at this point anyway. 

Hope she makes it home on Saturday.

I would not respond at all to the divorce BS.


----------



## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Tron said:


> MM, If you are travelling as a family and one family member gets bumped from a flight, they will typically allow the rest of the family to back out and put all of you on the next flight out. Especially if you paid full fare. Not that unusual. I don't recall how buddy passes on Delta actually work.
> 
> You always could have offered to bring your boy back with you, but that is all water under the bridge at this point anyway.
> 
> ...


I purchased my own ticket on US Airways as it was $700 cheaper. She did not even know I was coming. We only ended up going to the airport at the same time because I scheduled by round trip flight a week ahead for the same day she was planning to leave.


So she wasn't bumper from a flight, she was just flying a different airline with a buddy pass.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> I checked all the phone records, and she only texts me, and calls her mom, and a few other girlfriends I know.
> 
> I know she did not physically see anyone while away, BUT she might be having an emotional affair online. I have no proof at all, but it is possible.


Wazza, This would be some pretty crazy EA circumstances, unless the EA was with someone in Brazil, don't you think? Post Partem is a possibility but wouldn't the OP notice something like that sooner than now...2 years after the baby was born?

MM, besides what she has been doing the past 6 weeks, has your wife exhibited any other unusual, erratic or irrational behavior?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Tron said:


> Wazza, This would be some pretty crazy EA circumstances, unless the EA was with someone in Brazil, don't you think? Post Partem is a possibility but wouldn't the OP notice something like that sooner than now...2 years after the baby was born?
> 
> MM, besides what she has been doing the past 6 weeks, has your wife exhibited any other unusual, erratic or irrational behavior?


She has definitely changed from the woman I married.

She does not drink or do drugs, but within the last 2 years she adjusted to living in the USA, we had a baby, her grandma died, brother who was 40 died of cancer within 6 months, and now her dad passed from cancer. Her brother was the closest person to her on earth, and went from healthy to dying within 6 months due to kidney cancer.

So, I noticed a difference, but not sure what exactly it was due to. Me, post pardum, deaths in the family etc. 

So, she has been having insomnia, seemed to turn depressed, and has lacked interest in just about anything. However, while she was here, before this trip, she was still showing and exhibiting love towards me while together, while I was at work, via texts, cals, emails etc. But she is not the same woman I married by far.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

That is a lot of life change and emotional trauma in a short time. If there was ever a good time for a little IC, this might be it...and maybe some AD's too. Good luck MM, keep us posted.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Not alleging an affair, just to be clear, but I asked to check.

I think these guys have work to do on their relationship. When a marriage hits a rough spot like this it is actually a good thing IMO...if it forces them to think about the relationship and work on it.

My wife blamed post natal depression for her affair...that was at the back of my mind in my post. We all have our tender spots here


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Not alleging an affair, just to be clear, but I asked to check.


Hey, you never know with these things. I think EA is certainly more possible than a PA, especially if nothing happened in Brazil. 




Wazza said:


> I think these guys have work to do on their relationship. When a marriage hits a rough spot like this it is actually a good thing IMO...if it forces them to think about the relationship and work on it.


I cannot agree with this more. It can be the kick in the azz a marriage needs. It seems W and I come out of each rough spot a little stronger than the last one. It might not seem that way early on but...we haven't thrown in the towel yet.




Wazza said:


> My wife blamed post natal depression for her affair...that was at the back of my mind in my post. We all have our tender spots here


I did not know that and yes we definitely do.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

The other thing I notice, more than ever after this last trip and staying with her family, are cultural differences.

A. People not keeping their word, and just saying things that sound good at the moment.. An example could be 3 different people offering to drive us to the airport, but then they just change their mind and not even tell you if you actually accept the offer. Everyday is like that with every little thing.

B. Less structure. No bed times, no meal times, just a bunch of people doing what they feel like, when they want.

C. Less serious conversations. It is more about putting problems off, and trying to feel good at the moment. 

D. Nobody really works.. It is beach, have company at night, gossip.

I could see why my wife is comfy there , in a way, for the time being. Just gossip, everyone fawning over our son, lots of family and people around etc. 

But the reality is that families like her Sis n laws always have a benefactor, usually a rich father, that foots the bill. Everything is so expensive there, that if you are not wealthy it is a miserable existence.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> The other thing I notice, more than ever after this last trip and staying with her family, are cultural differences.
> 
> A. People not keeping their word, and just saying things that sound good at the moment.. An example could be 3 different people offering to drive us to the airport, but then they just change their mind and not even tell you if you actually accept the offer. Everyday is like that with every little thing.
> 
> ...


You just said a mouthful and describes the life of a typical Carioca.  

We have several Brazilian friends from both Rio and Sao Paulo and they could not be more different. The Paulistas work hard and are a lot more like us here in the states. They look down on Rio and the laid back attitude. We invite our friends from Rio over for dinner and they show up 3 hours late and don't leave until 3 or 4 in the morning. It's crazy! They are a lot of fun, but I wouldn't want to live with them.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> The other thing I notice, more than ever after this last trip and staying with her family, are cultural differences.
> 
> A. People not keeping their word, and just saying things that sound good at the moment.. An example could be 3 different people offering to drive us to the airport, but then they just change their mind and not even tell you if you actually accept the offer. Everyday is like that with every little thing.
> 
> ...


It has nothing to do with your plight, I'm just curious, do you speak Portuguese? I haven't found english to be widely spoken there, I usually employ some funky Portuñol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

BrockLanders said:


> It has nothing to do with your plight, I'm just curious, do you speak Portuguese? I haven't found english to be widely spoken there, I usually employ some funky Portuñol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No. I understand some of it, but am far from fluent. 

Her family is fluent in English except for her mom.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Are you seriously expecting her to come back? Just as you were expecting before you went there?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

keko said:


> Are you seriously expecting her to come back? Just as you were expecting before you went there?


Yes, I am. I have seen the situation and I know she is not happy there either, nor is it sustainable. But at this point, if she did not I know I have tried my best. Now would just have to handle the legalities.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> Yes, I am. I have seen the situation and I know she is not happy there either, nor is it sustainable. But at this point, if she did not I know I have tried my best. Now would just have to handle the legalities.


Well she didnt return saturday as the flights were full but returned this am. Started talking about divorce in the car on the way home bit then was wanting a hug and kiss before I left for work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm glad you got your son back.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> Well she didnt return saturday as the flights were full but returned this am. Started talking about divorce in the car on the way home bit then was wanting a hug and kiss before I left for work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


MM, It's time to get to work on your marriage. You definitely need to get to the bottom of what is going on. It doesn't look like there is another man involved, so you guys need to sit down and talk about what is missing, why she is feeling the way she is, whether she has PPD, etc. If you have some trouble doing it on your own then maybe find some counseling for her and maybe some MC for the both of you. 

If you want some help sifting through what she says, and you don't have a problem sharing it on the internet, feel free to post it on this board. There are a lot of smart people with a lot of experience on this site that are happy to help. If you decide to post more please try to be more forthcoming and specific with your descriptions and conversations, etc. because the more descriptive you are, the better we can help you interpret what it means.

You should also get started reading. Love Busters, His Needs Her Needs, The 5 Love Languages. 

I'm really glad your son is home. Secure his passports.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Well she didnt return saturday as the flights were full but returned this am. Started talking about divorce in the car on the way home bit then was wanting a hug and kiss before I left for work.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


First thing, find your son's passport and hide it at a family's house or a safe. 

Secondly she sounds like she's gauging your reaction, hence she wanted to divorce at first then started kissing you. Next time she says that, print out your counties divorce forms and tell her to fill them out. Say nothing more after that.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

At this point I can only classify it as immature conversation to get a rise out of me. In brazil we agreed to work things out. Then online she keeps mentioning divorce until she arrived. Then on the way home she is saying "so how do we get a divorce. I can get a job amd save money to start life in brazil". Then 5 minutes later she is asking if I want to rent a movie tonight, wants to go to the park later, and wants a kiss and hug before I go to work. I was leaving without one and she said she could not believe.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

MM321, congrats on getting them back in the country without international incidents. I know this is very stressful and you have done well, hang in there. I would get my hands on that passport somehow and secure it to prevent future incidents. I could be wrong here, but she truly seems to be confused. I think that I would try to rebuild the relationship, to include counselling and see if this can't be fixed. I think you still have a chance here. I know you are hurt, but now is not the time to be vindictive. Hang in there partner, I still think this marriage has a chance if you can get to counselling and she hears an objective person.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

At this point, all she does is pick on my every move, state there is no turning back, wants a divorce, and does not want counseling. We have not slept in the same bed for the first time last night, except of course when she was gone.

It is her first day back, and usually she is different, but never this much different. She did not leave the house. I worked, went shopping, took my son out etc and she just layed around in her pajamas, being pissed about everything I did. Something was messy, I forgot to buy a certain grocery, etc

My plan is to try and be patient, and hopefully she will re adjust to her life here again within a couple weeks, find a job which she claims to want now, and see how things go.

Her ideas just seem crazy to me, that she thinks I would accept.. Grand plans of her working for an airline somehow, being able to get me buddy passes, so that when she lives in Brazil I can fly for free to see my son, and she is thinking that is acceptable? 

Rio is now one of the most expensive cities in the world, so the entire plan seems ridiculous. She has a hard time just being a stay at home mom now, and wants to put the kid in daycare here.. Yet she will go from this to being a single mom, working 50 hours a week,raising our son, zero free time, no extra money, and completely struggling? Rent has skyrocketed in Rio, and she could forget about ever owning a car, new clothes etc. The tariffs are outrageous. The kid would need private school. You either must be rich or you will live a very poor lifestyle in a more dangerous area.

She had a hard time living on her own in Brazil, so her entire "plan" seems ridiculous.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

She's leaving you no choice but to stand up to her.

You ready for that?

The first thing you need to do is get hold of her passport.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> She's leaving you no choice but to stand up to her.
> 
> You ready for that?
> 
> The first thing you need to do is get hold of her passport.


:iagree:


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> Her ideas just seem crazy to me, that she thinks I would accept.. Grand plans of her working for an airline somehow, being able to get me buddy passes, so that when she lives in Brazil I can fly for free to see my son, and she is thinking that is acceptable?
> 
> Rio is now one of the most expensive cities in the world, so the entire plan seems ridiculous. She has a hard time just being a stay at home mom now, and wants to put the kid in daycare here.. Yet she will go from this to being a single mom, working 50 hours a week,raising our son, zero free time, no extra money, and completely struggling? Rent has skyrocketed in Rio, and she could forget about ever owning a car, new clothes etc. The tariffs are outrageous. The kid would need private school. You either must be rich or you will live a very poor lifestyle in a more dangerous area.
> 
> She had a hard time living on her own in Brazil, so her entire "plan" seems ridiculous.


You've gotta admit though, it is a beautiful fantasy.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Tron said:


> You've gotta admit though, it is a beautiful fantasy.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Tron said:


> :iagree:


I am sure she hid them somewhere. Is going to be a physical battle at this point to get them. One in which she will call police and lie to say I hit her. I am going to file a court injunction that she cannot leave with my son and must surrender his passport. Seema to be the best plan as of today
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Just before she came she wanted to work things out. Now here she said she is seeking a job , wants me to pay for daycare so she can save her money and move to brazil with my son, while I support her for a few months in the mean time. And when I said this is crazy she aaid I am selfish and only think of myself. And also in her plan is that once she is in brazil I will send her 1000 a month for a son she basically kidnapped and I will see twice a year. She said she will also come see me with him and I can pay for her flights and hotel for 2 months while I see him here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> Just before she came she wanted to work things out. Now here she said she is seeking a job , wants me to pay for daycare so she can save her money and move to brazil with my son, while I support her for a few months in the mean time. And when I said this is crazy she aaid I am selfish and only think of myself.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You respond with a simple, "I'm not ok with that"

Do you have a joint checking account?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> You respond with a simple, "I'm not ok with that"
> 
> Do you have a joint checking account?


No joint accounts
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> No joint accounts
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You give her an allowance every paycheck?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Small business owner. Seasonal business. So no set weekly amount
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> Small business owner. Seasonal business. So no set weekly amount
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She wants to make her own money - she pays her own way - with everything. Utilities, rent, etc.

You're not ok with paying her to leave you.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> She wants to make her own money - she pays her own way - with everything. Utilities, rent, etc.
> 
> You're not ok with paying her to leave you.


Exactly. I never heard a crazier idea in my life. this morning she woke up at 630 to make me lunch and breakfast and seemed fine then 3 hours later calls to tell me this plan and is just plain nasty.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nothingtodeclare (Apr 13, 2013)

Sounds like she has turned as toxic as her mom. What a shame.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> Exactly. I never heard a crazier idea in my life. this morning she woke up at 630 to make me lunch and breakfast and seemed fine then 3 hours later calls to tell me this plan and is just plain nasty.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"I don't like where this conversation is headed"

If it continues, hang up.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

How different is all this for how she used to be?

The injunction is a must-do. The rest of it is a bit weird. Was she always that way?


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Just before she came she wanted to work things out. Now here she said she is seeking a job , wants me to pay for daycare so she can save her money and move to brazil with my son, while I support her for a few months in the mean time. And when I said this is crazy she aaid I am selfish and only think of myself. And also in her plan is that once she is in brazil I will send her 1000 a month for a son she basically kidnapped and I will see twice a year. She said she will also come see me with him and I can pay for her flights and hotel for 2 months while I see him here.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:lol:

:rofl:


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> I am sure she hid them somewhere. Is going to be a physical battle at this point to get them. One in which she will call police and lie to say I hit her. I am going to file a court injunction that she cannot leave with my son and must surrender his passport. Seema to be the best plan as of today



Do what you can to find the passport. Send her out to get groceries or whatever. If it is in her purse wait until she goes to sleep to search for it. Get that injunction filed too. Are there any affidavits that you signed to allow her to travel overseas with your son without you? If so, find them and destroy them. 

I also wonder if you could call the state department, report the passport lost and have it cancelled. 

Anyway, you need to start monitoring her email and computer activity. Cut up and cancel all of her credit cards. Then hide yours. She now needs to pay her share of the bills...including daycare. Time to stand up to her and welcome her to the real world.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> How different is all this for how she used to be?
> 
> The injunction is a must-do. The rest of it is a bit weird. Was she always that way?


I would say I never expected this. I think she is having a mental breakdown of a sorts. She lost her grandma, brother, dad, and now hates her mom again. She has nobody and is now doing her best to push my buttons and claims she does not love me anymore at all. 

I am not sure if she is seeking strength and reassurance from me, or if she really wants a divorce and to move.

She doesnt even have a job in Rio and her last one paid about $900 a month to work 60 hours a week at a school coordinating and teaching. Just a small apartment is double or triple that.

An
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Stop trying to figure it out.

Establish the boundaries associated with her paying her own way.

Cool

Firm

Dispassionate

You're not going to convince her of anything. Only she can do that.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Your #1 priority is to get your sons passport and store it off site.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> I would say I never expected this. I think she is having a mental breakdown of a sorts. She lost her grandma, brother, dad, and now hates her mom again. She has nobody and is now doing her best to push my buttons and claims she does not love me anymore at all.
> 
> I am not sure if she is seeking strength and reassurance from me, or if she really wants a divorce and to move.
> 
> ...


The feeling I got from the start with your thread is that your marriage was in a weak place and the deaths had brought it out. If I am right about that, the best thing you can do is work on the marriage.

I would definitely seek some sort of counselling.

I apologise if this next is out of line. I am postinf a suspicion to give you something to consider.

I kind of had the feeling you weren't very focused on her needs as she stated them. I see that again in your recent posts. Her ideas as you have explained them are a bt crazy, but maybe you have distorted them, or maybe she just needs the freedom to make some mistakes. I would consider that while taking a leaf out of Conrad's book and laying down some immutable rules, communicated clearly. For example, if she wants to work she needs to contribute to household expenses etc.

It is undestandable for her to want to go to home. I have no suggestions on that front, beyond legally stopping her taking the child without your permission. I hope you find a futures where you can visit Rio together safely.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> The feeling I got from the start with your thread is that your marriage was in a weak place and the deaths had brought it out. If I am right about that, the best thing you can do is work on the marriage.
> 
> I would definitely seek some sort of counselling.
> 
> ...


You are right. I probably was not very focused on her emotional needs. Her "dream" was to be a stay at home mom and I was proud thatI could provide that. She had lots of friends but seemingly became depressed and shut off from me and them once these deaths occured.

Home life was not great for me as her mom was calling to make her more depressed nightly. I had to keep chugging along with work to support all of us. 

And I wasnt exaggerating. She has been saying "dont worry u will always be his dad" as if it makes no difference if I bond with my son or not. She thinks seeing him twice a year is good enough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Holding a job and paying some bills will be good for her.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> You are right. I probably was not very focused on her emotional needs. Her "dream" was to be a stay at home mom and I was proud thatI could provide that. She had lots of friends but seemingly became depressed and shut off from me and them once these deaths occured.
> 
> Home life was not great for me as her mom was calling to make her more depressed nightly. I had to keep chugging along with work to support all of us.


MM, This whole thing has been a bit strange from day 1. Do you think she might be having a nervous breakdown or some kind of mental episode? If so, is she willing to go see your physician with you? Or perhaps a psychiatrist?




marriedman321 said:


> And I wasnt exaggerating. She has been saying "dont worry u will always be his dad" as if it makes no difference if I bond with my son or not. She thinks seeing him twice a year is good enough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm sorry, but the whole thought process here is really messed up. This just goes back to my thoughts about some kind of breakdown. Ask her if she would be satisfied seeing her son twice a year...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Tron,

Such a question is asking her to empathize.

She's not capable of that right now.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Tron,
> 
> Such a question is asking her to empathize.
> 
> She's not capable of that right now.


Exactly. I posed that question in many forms several times and she just gets irritated and says something like "I take care of him all day while u work so it is different"

She says she just wants to live alone and raise our son. As for myself I dont drink often, work hard, plan, save, am very responsible, do not do drugs etc. So it really hurts that she feels I am simply not needed in his life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Tron,
> 
> Such a question is asking her to empathize.
> 
> She's not capable of that right now.


Maybe, maybe not. I reckon worth a try. Worst that happens is she doesn't get it.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

That's true, she obviously can't comprehend the crazy she is spouting off right now.

And she definitely needs a job. Something to occupy her time and mind besides all of her family tragedy.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> Exactly. I posed that question in many forms several times and she just gets irritated and says something like "I take care of him all day while u work so it is different"
> 
> She says she just wants to live alone and raise our son. As for myself I dont drink often, work hard, plan, save, am very responsible, do not do drugs etc. So it really hurts that she feels I am simply not needed in his life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's your codependence talking. Just her warped opinion. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Set some boundaries and see how she responds.

"Ok, I see why it's different. So, we'll arrange for daycare and each contribute proportional to our incomes and you work too. We'll also split the rest of our bills proportionally"


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

And yes we spoke about her getting help but she seems to believe I am the problem. It is all about "love" and the love went away this pastmonth. She is not open at this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Exactly. I posed that question in many forms several times and she just gets irritated and says something like "I take care of him all day while u work so it is different"
> 
> She says she just wants to live alone and raise our son. As for myself I dont drink often, work hard, plan, save, am very responsible, do not do drugs etc. So it really hurts that she feels I am simply not needed in his life.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But can you empathise?

All the things you list in the second paragraph are the way we as men establish our worth, and women want more. I have read so many stories of me who say "I did all this and she still left me."

Meantime she is home, stuck with a kid, no independence? Maybe she wanted to be stay at home once, but doesn't seem so now.

Wife is going to blame you for stuff...she is in a bad place. You have to decide whether you get her out of it by being firm and taking no nonsense, or by being nice. There are arguments for both.

Me, I would support her in rearranging things so she can work. However it plays out that seems like a good thing to me.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> But can you empathise?
> 
> 
> Wife is going to blame you for stuff...she is in a bad place. You have to decide whether you get her *out of it by being firm and taking no nonsense, or by being nice.* There are arguments for both.
> ...


Exactly my conundrum.

I will try to be firm yet understanding of what she has been through. I dont see her coming up with $3000 any time soon just for tickets to go to Brazil and I would expect her to contribute once she starts working.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

As of tonight still no talking to her.. Everything was fine then she said "Once I am in Brazil instead of some money you can send clothes as they are cheaper in the USA" Then she said she wants me to find her a night job for 3 months here in the US.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I hope you just nodded and that you DO nothing except keep her out of the money.

She's a flight risk.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Did you find your sons passport?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> I hope you just nodded and that you DO nothing except keep her out of the money.
> 
> She's a flight risk.


It still got to me a little. She starts saying I dont love her and then I say I do, which leads her to saying it is too late and she does not love me. I just cannot believe this is really her plan. Especially after she sees our son yelling "dada" jumping up and down to see me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

keko said:


> Did you find your sons passport?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not yet. I am sure it is in her purse. At this point she is just not mentally ok. Should I just grab it and start a fight? She did come back on her own as she has no options there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

You are damned if you do and damned if you don't really.

Is seizing the passport the only option? You mentioned an injunction earlier.

Personally I believe in directness. I would put the barriers in place to stop her taking the son and tell her. I would say I don't want her to go, but that is her choice. However she is not taking the son.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

The USA does not check passports on exit as other countries do. So there is no way to flag a passport. I can grab it and hide it or issue a court injunction in which she is told to surrender the passport and that can take 6 weeks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Not yet. I am sure it is in her purse. At this point she is just not mentally ok. Should I just grab it and start a fight? She did come back on her own as she has no options there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





marriedman321 said:


> The USA does not check passports on exit as other countries do. So there is no way to flag a passport. I can grab it and hide it or issue a court injunction in which she is told to surrender the passport and that can take 6 weeks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When she's in the bathroom, find her purse and remove your son's passport. Simple enough?

Also am I the only person who's passport gets checked before leaving the country?


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

marriedman321 said:


> The USA does not check passports on exit as other countries do. So there is no way to flag a passport. I can grab it and hide it or issue a court injunction in which she is told to surrender the passport and that can take 6 weeks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not true. The airlines do check passports on the way out. They just don't have government passport control agents.

Just take it when she sleeps.

As for her saying what you will do, simply reply, "No. I won't" each time she throws that crap out.i


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

keko said:


> When she's in the bathroom, find her purse and remove your son's passport. Simple enough?
> 
> Also am I the only person who's passport gets checked before leaving the country?


Yes, they do check. However, if you have the passport there is no way it can be blocked, even for a minor. There is no court order that can flag a passport. The courts can only request the passport to be handed in.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Just find it yourself and secure it offsite, instead of going through the legal system.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> As of tonight still no talking to her.. Everything was fine then she said "Once I am in Brazil instead of some money you can send clothes as they are cheaper in the USA" Then she said she wants me to find her a night job for 3 months here in the US.


"wants you to find her a night job" huh? If she looks exclusively at night jobs that is going to keep you guys apart and won't be conducive to working things out. Best thing might be for you to help her find a day job and if she doesn't want it then let her find her own job. 

Any luck with the passport?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

If you take the passport how easy is it to get a new one?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

My understanding of passport rules is that both parents have to agree to have a passport issued. One parent can get it done in person, but they have to carry a notarized affidavit from the other parent with them when they go to the Post Office/Passport Agency. If he is able to secure the kid's passport then all is good.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Does the chid have a US passport, Brazilian, or both?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Does the chid have a US passport, Brazilian, or both?


Only a US passport right now. As for her night job she has a different idea everyday. Now she just says "find me a night job". Yesterday it was delta, the day before teaching, now a night job. She has no real plan. I can take the passport somehow but she will notice and feel even more trapped and I feel it will get ugly. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Only a US passport right now. As for her night job she has a different idea everyday. Now she just says "find me a night job". Yesterday it was delta, the day before teaching, now a night job. She has no real plan. I can take the passport somehow but she will notice and feel even more trapped and I feel it will get ugly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Are you sure only US? Could she have got a Brazillian passport without your knowledge?


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> but she will notice and feel even more trapped and I feel it will get ugly.


That's the idea. She has to notice that she is free to do as she pleases but your son stays with you.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I understand your concern about it getting "ugly", but she is a flight risk in my opinion. The only way to really prevent that is to get the passport and either destroy it or store it off premises. 

If you are worried about her trying to file some trumped up charge for DV then do your best to stay calm at all times and keep a VAR with you. 

The more that I think about it, a VAR is a really good idea. If she goes the DV route and files some kind of false statement with the police with the VAR you can turn the tables on her and force a psych evaluation...


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

You only got her back home by taking action and leading.

Now you are slipping back into letting her drive and you being fearful of her.

Brazilian women do not like passive men who let their wives dominate them, or who backdown. It's a culture of loud voices, often hidden agendas and outright lies, but never cowering men.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Just fyi MM, the passport travel issue popped up on Bullwinkle's thread today and I asked for some clarification. 



Bullwinkle said:


> I was lucky per the Customs thing, my lawyer's next-door neighbor is a muckety-muck at Border Control offices here in DC, well, you know, the Good Ole Boy network.... but my lawyer told me that all kids traveling out of the U.S. on an American passport with just one parent of a married couple, that that parent will be asked to produce some proof that the other parent is aware of and okay with that child being taken out, even to Canada.


The problem I see is that you cannot always count on the attendants at the airport kiosks and check-ins to do their job. I think you need to try and cover every avenue possible. If there is an affidavit out there that you signed, you need to find it and any copies and destroy them. Try and contact US Customs agents and see if you can add your son's name onto a do not travel outside the US list without consent. Obviously securing the passport is ideal.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Tron said:


> Just fyi MM, the passport travel issue popped up on Bullwinkle's thread today and I asked for some clarification.
> 
> 
> 
> The problem I see is that you cannot always count on the attendants at the airport kiosks and check-ins to do their job. I think you need to try and cover every avenue possible. If there is an affidavit out there that you signed, you need to find it and any copies and destroy them. Try and contact US Customs agents and see if you can add your son's name onto a do not travel outside the US list without consent. Obviously securing the passport is ideal.


It was another day of her threats, yelling, acting crazy. I went home early from work and found his passport. I now left. Waiting to see her reaction.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Can the passport be put into custody with someone who requires you both to agree before it can be accessed. That would move this from "I am taking control no matter what wife says" to "this is a decision we need to agree on". Might take some heat out of things.

Doesn't matter if your only goal is keeping the kid in the US, but a big deal if you are trying to rebuild a relationship.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Can the passport be put into custody with someone who requires you both to agree before it can be accessed. That would move this from "I am taking control no matter what wife says" to "this is a decision we need to agree on". Might take some heat out of things.
> 
> Doesn't matter if your only goal is keeping the kid in the US, but a big deal if you are trying to rebuild a relationship.


There is no reasoning with her at this time. None at all. She just keepa telling me she is taking my son and leaving to brazil. For the firat time in 8 weeks I have a slight relief knowing she cannot disappear with him
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

But don't you need to work on getting back to a point where you can reason? Or have you given up?

Hope I don't seem unsympathetic. I feel for what you are going through.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> It was another day of her threats, yelling, acting crazy. I went home early from work and found his passport. I now left. Waiting to see her reaction.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:smthumbup: :smthumbup: :smthumbup: 

Nice job. Don't leave it anywhere she can find it. Maybe off site or with a family member. Fedex it to your mom or dad temprorily, if you have to. 

If you think Wazza's recommendation is the way to go, maybe you can find yourself an attorney to handle the upcoming "divorce" and leave it in his/her custody. This might alleviate any animosity she might have.

Since you are out and about, maybe you can run over to Best Buy and pick up the Sony VAR. If things escalate with her, you will be glad you had it.

As for her reaction...won't be good, I'm sure. Ignore her craziness. Do not engage. Keep your cool. You are a rock.

Conrad would tell you to be

Cool

Calm

Dispassionate 

That is your new mantra. Oh yeah and be strong.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> It was another day of her threats, yelling, acting crazy. I went home early from work and found his passport. I now left. *Waiting to see her reaction.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Why?

You need to focus on yourself only.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

I am not a flight risk. She has my son. I talked to a lawyer today and the state dept and they both suggested I take the passport.

Do you know the feeling I have and did have inside? I am playing with my son who loves me very much and she is standing there telling me she will be ready to leave with him in 2 months but just wants to use me for a place to stay until she saves money?

Shr needs to realize that is not acceptable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> I am not a flight risk. She has my son. I talked to a lawyer today and the state dept and they both suggested I take the passport.
> 
> Do you know the feeling I have and did have inside? I am playing with my son who loves me very much and she is standing there telling me she will be ready to leave with him in 2 months but just wants to use me for a place to stay until she saves money?
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thoreau (Nov 12, 2012)

Take your son and leave.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Does she have a phone you can track without her knowing?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Last night I just spent the night at a hotel and returned today. 

She started with the "I am calling the cops" bs and I told her to go ahead, i live here too. Then she started with saying "I want this divorce now"... I just said ok.

I feel she is majorly depressed and taking everything out on me. For now I have nowhere else to go, nor do I feel I should leave. My son and I are bonding again. I want to talk her into getting some sort of help. In the mean time I need to concentrate on myself again and spend time with my son. She spens a lot of time crying, not leaving the house, looking sad/mad.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Go to Walmart or best buy right now and buy a voice recorder. Keep that on yourself each and every time you're around her. That'll prove your innocence if/when she calls the cops.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BFGuru (Jan 28, 2013)

Do not leave the house again. That is your home and where your son lives. She cannot kick you out of your home.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

I am not sure if I am crazy, or my wife's ideas are just plain crazy.

She is sulking, walking around pissed, sad, mad and will not acknowledge me.. 

Her plan, as she stated, was to move to Brazil with my son.. With no money, start by just sleeping on the floor at her sis n laws, then find a job, then find an apartment, then have me send money and be totally happy that I will not see my son anymore. She does not think ahead that they will need food, clothes, a car, all the bills, school for my son, etc etc. 

Does she think I would allow my son to be in this situation? How can she view my son as not belonging to me at all? Just 100% her son? I know I need to focus on myself, but I wonder if any other men had a wife or ex that viewed things in this manner?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Ignore it.

How is her job search going?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Tron said:


> Ignore it.
> 
> How is her job search going?


A couple days ago she just yelled at me and told me it is my job to find her a job. Since that she has just been laying around the house in pajamas. 

Things are better as of today, as atleast she is not yelling or screaming..


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Have you done everything for her during this relationship?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

I worked and paid the bills while she was raising our son during the day.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

What i am trying to get at is some of the dynamics in your M. Besides taking care of your child, what responsibilities did she have? Home finances? How did you treat her? Equal partner? Control?

It isn't normal for a W to say it is the H's job to find his W a job.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Tron said:


> What i am trying to get at is some of the dynamics in your M. Besides taking care of your child, what responsibilities did she have? Home finances? How did you treat her? Equal partner? Control?
> 
> It isn't normal for a W to say it is the H's job to find his W a job.


None of this is normal to me. She never took an interest in anything. She never wanted to pay the bills, control finances, work for money etc. I tried to get her involved in many things, many times.

She still thinks I should just say "yes, take my son to Brazil, and I will send you $1000 a month.. Goodbye.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Tron said:


> What i am trying to get at is some of the dynamics in your M. Besides taking care of your child, what responsibilities did she have? Home finances? How did you treat her? Equal partner? Control?
> 
> It isn't normal for a W to say it is the H's job to find his W a job.


Yes. She feels controlled. But this is a marriage. I paid for her to go to brazil 3 times. If I was immature I could say I am Controlled as well as I cant go out with buddies 5 nights a week. She was seemingly fine until this last trip.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OrangeCrush (Sep 12, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> You are right. I probably was not very focused on her emotional needs. Her "dream" was to be a stay at home mom and I was proud thatI could provide that.


it seems to me like she desperately misses her culture. Not necessarily her family (although aside from her crazy mother, she probably misses them too), but just the entirely different way of life they have there. Family around all the time, she can relax and speak her native language, lots of people and energy and like you said, less rigid and less structured. 

Of course if she grew up in that culture she is going to be miserable and lonely as a stay-at-home mom here in the US, where you're basically shut in your house and isolated with little to no interaction unless you really work hard to seek that out. It's totally different from the lifestyle and culture she grew up in, where you are surrounded by family/friends/neighbors and that constant social interaction is always there naturally. you said it yourself- when she was there with her son people were always dropping by to play with him and talk to her- it's really different in the US. 

Add that to if she grew up in a wealthy family in a rich part of Rio, the lifestyle she imagined and wanted as a stay-at-home mom is _really_ different from the lifestyle of a SAHM in the suburban middle-class US. it sounds like she is depressed/angry/trying to figure out a way to get back to Brazil because she prefers that culture over the typical American lifestyle. Have you asked your wife if this might be the case? 

Do you make enough that you could afford to have a vacation home in Rio? You could look at it as an investment property, and rent it out when you're not there so it could bring in income for you.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

She is clearly depressed and desperate. What she needs is hope and the therapy.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

OrangeCrush said:


> it seems to me like she desperately misses her culture. Not necessarily her family (although aside from her crazy mother, she probably misses them too), but just the entirely different way of life they have there. Family around all the time, she can relax and speak her native language, lots of people and energy and like you said, less rigid and less structured.
> 
> Of course if she grew up in that culture she is going to be miserable and lonely as a stay-at-home mom here in the US, where you're basically shut in your house and isolated with little to no interaction unless you really work hard to seek that out. It's totally different from the lifestyle and culture she grew up in, where you are surrounded by family/friends/neighbors and that constant social interaction is always there naturally. you said it yourself- when she was there with her son people were always dropping by to play with him and talk to her- it's really different in the US.
> 
> ...


I agree to a point.. I feel an issue is that my wife does not think very far ahead..

There are 2 Rio's.. One when you go on vacation with money and every comes to see you.. Sure that's great. And the other is actually living and working there.. Long hours, low pay, family members you get mad at after a while, dating guys who just want to play games, dangerous, super expensive etc.

When we met her life sucked basically. She was not seeing her family and friends 24/7. She was working at a school, working 60 hours a week, no time for anything, no money for anything.. Just work, sleep repeat.

Her ideas are just dreams, but when she was in Rio for the past 7 weeks she never went to the beach.. Sat around in pajamas.. Was depressed etc. her sis n law has sort of a party house, where everyone brings their friends and families over to eat and drink. yes, fun for a bit, but not a healthy sustainable lifestyle.


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## OrangeCrush (Sep 12, 2012)

^^ right, she is probably in a 'fog' right now where she sees 'vacation Brazil' and thinks of that lifestyle, not realizing that it won't be the same as a long vacation with no responsibilities if she goes back for real. It sounds like a mix of that fog thinking that life in Brazil would be better than it actually would be in reality, plus depression because of missing her father/family and home culture...and also, don't under-estimate the power her crazy mother has over her. I don't know how you grew up or what your parents were like, but if you didn't have an abusive and/or manipulative mother, i can't say enough about how spending even one or two days with such a person can make you literally feel like you are going crazy and make you question everything, even who you are and what you want and value in life. 

yes, i speak from experience about both of those things- i often have to remind myself that vacation isn't like real life, every time I go home to France to visit. It always seems so much better in every way than here- of course, a large part of that is because I have very little responsibility in Paris because I don't live there right now! If I lived there, like you said- it would be working very hard every day and dealing with the little everyday annoyances, not like on vacation where it's all strolling through parks with friends and going to concerts and parties. and there is always sadness and confusion right after i come home from a long visit home- questioning if i made the right choice to move, missing certain aspects of home, etc. It's hard to snap out of it. 

i don't know what the solution is, but i don't think that your wife doesn't love you. i think your wife is lashing out and thinking/saying things that sound insane because she is depressed, confused and hurting. i'm not saying that makes her hurtful behaviour to you right or okay, of course not. just that it might help to understand some of what might be fueling the behaviours if you want her to get help and work on the relationship with her. 

and maybe the suggestion to look at rental property in Rio is a bit premature- but I think if you do want to work on things and stay together, one thing to do is figure out some way that you can spend some time in her home country as a family within your budget. 

I do think your wife needs therapy and needs to change her thinking and expectations and some of her mindsets, too. I don't mean to say that it's only you who needs to change or understand her- she also needs to change and understand you, but I just didn't focus on that because she's not reading this or asking for advice.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Orange, exactly.. I actually used me visiting Paris as an example to her..

Our relationship has been good EXCEPT for when she returns from vacations to Brazil. The next week or 2 have always been horrible, but never nearly this bad.. Many thought I was "cold" for wanting her to return after 2 weeks as her father passed, but I had the feeling this would happen. 

I would definitely consider Paris a step above Rio. While Rio is seemingly fun for many, I also see many of the people there somewhat lost, and it is interesting to me that whether her family members are rich or poor, they want to move. One of her best friends, and now my friends, have the best life possible there.. Big house, great career, drivers, maids, bullet proof cars, YET they are looking to transfer to any other country to work and live.

In her "fog" she is thinking she can get a job teaching, support our son, buy him everything necessary and somehow be happy. At 34 she could not do this for just herself.. She quickly forgot. Even with 2 degrees. She was working 60 hours a week, with no car, no extra money basically to pay rent.. At a job she hated and was treated like crap. 

As for her sister in law, she is also depressed yet drinks alot.. She has a rich father and collected a lot of life insurance. So, she is getting by in a seemingly fun way. But that is not reality. 

And once again, besides the deaths, she was happy with me and with life here. She left and questioned everything..

I have the feeling if I did let her go, unless she instantly met a rich man and fell in love, she would be back within a month or 2.

I also show her the texts and emails she was sending the days before she left, and she cannot even look at them.. They all were saying "love you more than ever" "love you forever" "best time of my life" etc etc.. Then everything changes so quickly after a trip back home..


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

MM, we are back to where I came into this thread. 

So this post is to get you to think about alternatives. I am speculating, and I am going to stress that you need to try and be open to what I am about to write. Because I assume your first thought will be to dismiss it.

One of the common things I hear in stories of men whose wives left them or had affairs is "I never realised there was a problem" while the woman thinks they have been trying to communicate a problem. So I want you to ponder a question. I know what your first answer will be, but maybe on thought you may change.

What if your wife is trying to tell you that she wants to live in Rio, and it is becoming about your relationship because you are forcing a choice.

Is it you or she who thought her life in Rio was horrible? Think back. Did she beg you to take her away from it, or was it a case that she went with you and is now torn? It is not a slam dunk that everyone offered a choice of the US or Rio would pick the US. It is quite likely that she loves her homeland as much as you love America (I am not clear whether you were born and bred in the US or emigrated there). Maybe she missed the freedom and independence she had back then, and feels like a bird in a gilded cage.

My theory is that maybe she feels you are not listening to her, and she despairs of getting you to see that. That was a feeling I got from your very first posts. I see it again now. You are very dismissive of her opinions right now. I don't know how much this is typical of your relationship. Maybe it isn't. If she treated you like that, would you take it?

Now, assuming my theory is right.....you need to treat her like an equal and give her an equal say. I get your point that some of her ideas are not realistic. You know that through experience. Help her to get similar experiences. Help her to find the real world.

I personally think getting a job and having some responsibility for bills would be a good thing for her. It doesn't mean she will come to agree with you, but it does mean her opinions would become more informed.

And if you REALLY care about her.....have a discussion about whether you should move as a family to Rio. Work through what it would mean. Try it for a period maybe. Let her have this major life decision her way for a time. Do you love her enough to do that?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> What if your wife is trying to tell you that she wants to live in Rio, and it is becoming about your relationship because you are forcing a choice.
> 
> Is it you or she who thought her life in Rio was horrible? Think back. Did she beg you to take her away from it, or was it a case that she went with you and is now torn? It is not a slam dunk that everyone offered a choice of the US or Rio would pick the US. It is quite likely that she loves her homeland as much as you love America (I am not clear whether you were born and bred in the US or emigrated there). Maybe she missed the freedom and independence she had back then, and feels like a bird in a gilded cage.
> 
> ...


Well, we dated for a few months in Rio before she moved to the states to marry me.. I think the states are boring in many ways, and not the best place on Earth..

But first off, here are some reasons I feel she was not happy in Rio..

A. Danger.. She was kidnapped once, had a gun held to her head for her cell phone, hit by a drunk driver, hit and run etc.. When we walked around she was always looking over her should, as most people do there.

B. Finances.. Her pay was about 2000 of her money, rent was 1400.. Now it is even far more expensive, but salaries are about the same.

C. her life was just work and sleep. She told me she hated her job many times.. Was sick of Rio.. I never even heard of any friends she would miss..She saw her family maybe once a month, and being single and childless she did not fit in.

And as for what things cost, I am not sure if many posters here understand.. A jeep Cherokee is 100,000 USD. A pair of childrens shoes is $100. I saw a stroller for $2500.. The tariffs are completely outrageous..If you drive to the mall and park for 5 minutes you owe $10. 

So, unless you are rich or on vacation, life there sucks. She said this many times.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Well, we dated for a few months in Rio before she moved to the states to marry me.. I think the states are boring in many ways, and not the best place on Earth..
> 
> But first off, here are some reasons I feel she was not happy in Rio..
> 
> ...


But if that is what she feels, why does she want to go back there? How many of the things you list are your reasons as opposed to her?

Bellyaching about her job is normal. "Life sucks" maybe also is normal bellyaching. And almost certainly she is confused as to what she wants.

In you shoes I think I would ask her what she thinks and I would listen. Not argue, not counter, just listen. Then go away and digest it and look for compromises.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> But if that is what she feels, why does she want to go back there? How many of the things you list are your reasons as opposed to her?
> 
> Bellyaching about her job is normal. "Life sucks" maybe also is normal bellyaching. And almost certainly she is confused as to what she wants.
> 
> In you shoes I think I would ask her what she thinks and I would listen. Not argue, not counter, just listen. Then go away and digest it and look for compromises.


I think Orange Crush understands..

When I asked her yesterday, "Where is life for our son better" she then said "Well Me and our son can come back when he starts school." So I will just miss years 2-5 of his life?


The reasons to go back are to be around her nieces, nephews, some friends etc. But once there, and she is settled in, these people have their own lives and are not hanging out.. They have jobs, kids, families of their own. 

Right now she is in an emotional fog of sorts, and has not thought out anything. She is planning on getting a job she does not have, an apartment she cannot afford, and working 50 hours a week then going home to spend quality time with my son? She is wore out just from being a stay at home mom, not working, not paying bills, not budgeting, and she will somehow now handle everything on her own? 

It would be like me saying right now "I love Manhattan". So I will go there with no money, get an apt, get a job, raise my son alone, and be happy. 

A little more about her... Her parents co-signed for one apt of her in Rio she could not afford when she was single.. Her parents owed about $10,000 to break the lease.. Her parents bought her a new car that was stolen, and she couldn't afford the insurance.. So her parents owed the money for that car.. Her parents bought her a new car, then took over the payments when she could not afford that.. Her brother was paying her rent for a while.. 

Long story short, she lived at home until 30, and could never make it there on her own. Now that Rio is having the World Cup and Olympics prices have skyrocketed.. There is no way I can put my son in that situation.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

You seem to be missing my point. Your arguments seem to be all about why Rio is a bad idea and nothing to do with what your wife wants. And I am a stranger on the web with no plans to move there. You don't need to convince me!

Your arguments about her financial responsibility seem to be discounting her opinions on the ground that she is not good with money.

The nub of OrangeCrush's post is getting why living in Rio is not the same as holidaying there, and I agree with that point. It supports what you are saying, but doesn't contradict what I am saying.

The notions that living in Rio is a dumb idea, and that your wife wants to live there badly enough to consider leaving you if that is the only way, can coexist.

I don't have enough information to know if I am right, but I am yet to see a fact contradicting the hypothesis I am putting forward. And if I am right, and if you continue this path, you are forcing your wife to choose. Maybe there is a compromise that could avoid that, and meet both your needs.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Your wife sounds spoiled and entitled beyond belief. Hope you burned your son's passport. She really sounds like the type who would run off with him.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> The notions that living in Rio is a dumb idea, and that your wife wants to live there badly enough to consider leaving you if that is the only way, can coexist.
> 
> I don't have enough information to know if I am right, but I am yet to see a fact contradicting the hypothesis I am putting forward. And if I am right, and if you continue this path, you are forcing your wife to choose. Maybe there is a compromise that could avoid that, and meet both your needs.


Right now my wife even told me sister she no longer loves me at all, and just wants to live in Brazil with my son.. 

I do not have any real compromise to this.. My wife never even told me WHY she wants to live in Rio all of a sudden.. It was never coherently discussed, ever. She all of a sudden hates my guts, and says I can have many more kid with different women.. We should get divorced and I should let my son go with her to live in Brazil.

if I can get a few words out of her not without anger behind them, she admits Rio is not the best place for our son, but SHE wants to live there.


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Have you read "Married men sex life Promoter" by Athol Kay? How about "No More Mr Nice Guy" by Robert Glover?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

keko said:


> Have you read "Married men sex life Promoter" by Athol Kay? How about "No More Mr Nice Guy" by Robert Glover?


Yes, I skimmed through Nice Guy and I do not feel that really fit me. 

Just lost.. Do I just go file for divorce and get an attorney? Wife has only been back 4 days, but it is hell..Verbal abuse, threats, putting me down infront of my son, etc As of 8 days ago she wanted to "work it out" and get re married on our anniversary in July..


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I think it's too soon to use the D word but you do need to stop the abusive behavior. So she doesn't like you that doesn't give her the right to treat you badly. You ARE the father of her son.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Right now my wife even told me sister she no longer loves me at all, and just wants to live in Brazil with my son..
> 
> I do not have any real compromise to this.. My wife never even told me WHY she wants to live in Rio all of a sudden.. It was never coherently discussed, ever. She all of a sudden hates my guts, and says I can have many more kid with different women.. We should get divorced and I should let my son go with her to live in Brazil.
> 
> if I can get a few words out of her not without anger behind them, she admits Rio is not the best place for our son, but SHE wants to live there.


One step at a time.

I would give her time to grieve and process things, and work on any weaknesses you see in the relationship.

Note, I am advocating discussion and compromise, but that doesn't mean being a doormat.

Dunno what is going to happen. Maybe you will end up divorced. But if that is not what you want, you should fight to rebuild.

I've been kind of where you are with a wife who hated me, and we did rebuild. Took a lot of hard work and a long time. I think my wife was as screwy with money as yours. She got a job and had her share of bills to handle and things got a lot better on that front. Not that we does things the same way I would still! Sigh.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I think it's too soon to use the D word but you do need to stop the abusive behavior. So she doesn't like you that doesn't give her the right to treat you badly. You ARE the father of her son.


Agree.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Let me ask this..

I know I should focus on myself, and I will.

But isn't her plan basically a character flaw? And by her plan I mean her telling me she wants to move to Rio, raise my son there, but not to worry, as I am always allowed to visit..

She says it so casually as if she plans on moving 2 miles away.

Does she not understand that I love my son? And I want to be in his life more than a week out of the year? And that my son loves me, and needs me as well? I am wondering how she can even come up with an idea like this and then expect me to just go along with it..

What does she expect me to say "Oh, ok honey, you want to live in Rio? Sure no problem.. I can always visit my son once a year..How about I help you achieve that.. I want you to be happy"

She actually calls ME selfish for not allowing this to happen.. Narcissism? ...As if the child is only hers and I have no feelings or say.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

She's compartmentalizing. It's her way of subconsciously coping with differing values in her head. Compartmentalization allows conflicting ideas (moving vs you being in your son's life) to co-exist by separating and not acknowledging the separate compartment. The compartment she's not acknowledging is you needing to be in your son's life. She's totally blocked you out.

It's subconscious so she's not aware she's doing this.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Her "plan" is selfish.

Interesting question, are you equally selfish to insist the child stay in the USA?

Selfish or not, I wouldn't personally concede that point. I would argue that you agreed to marry and live in the US, and raise your child there. If she chooses to divorce she needs to still respect that choice of location until such time as you agree to vary it.

I would offer that you keep the child and she visit as much as she wishes. That might make the point.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Interesting question, are you equally selfish to insist the child stay in the USA?


That's not a fair question. The child was born in the USA. She's the one who changed her mind not him. Had he known she wanted to live in Brazil full time I'm sure he wouldn't have married or had a child with her.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> That's not a fair question. The child was born in the USA. She's the one who changed her mind not him. Had he known she wanted to live in Brazil full time I'm sure he wouldn't have married or had a child with her.


I agree that the last joint decision was the child be in the US, and in their current location, whereever it is. I did say that in my post. But it cuts both ways, if MM wants to move.

I don't think it makes the question unfair. And I was not defending the wife's actions.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Her "plan" is selfish.
> 
> Interesting question, are you equally selfish to insist the child stay in the USA?
> 
> ...


I agree with the last part.. Especially since she is so eager to leave right now, but has no job, no money, no place to live.. It is far easier for her to go home and come back to visit than put my child in complete chaos.

In the past 3 years NEVER have we contemplated living in Brazil. She was probably more against it than me, pointing out all of the reasons I gave in this thread. It is just during the past 3 weeks that somehow this became an option to her. 

If I moved to Brazil to marry a woman, then decided I hate her for no real reason (no abuse, no cheating, no drugs etc) how could I then tell her "Ok, I am out of here.. I dont love you.. I am taking our child"


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Well...for completeness here...struggling to combine being supportive and still provide you with another perspective.....I suspect maybe your wife has been torn about Brazil vs the US, but you guys haven't communicated about it until this all blew up.

I think you said that every time she goes to Brazil she doesn't want to come back...it is just more protracted this time. 

This doesn't mean I support her unilaterally migrating and taking the child. I would definitely take legal advice as to how to prevent that.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I agree that the last joint decision was the child be in the US, and in their current location, whereever it is. I did say that in my post. But it cuts both ways, if MM wants to move.
> 
> I don't think it makes the question unfair. And I was not defending the wife's actions.


She can't support a child on her own in brazil. She could barely support herself. She's delusional which means in my opinion kid stays here.

Btw this happens all the time in divorce cases. Dad files an injunction saying wifey can't move child out of state. Got a male friend right now who just did it.

So my answer is if she wants to move kid stays here.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> She can't support a child on her own in brazil. She could barely support herself. She's delusional which means in my opinion kid stays here.
> 
> Btw this happens all the time in divorce cases. Dad files an injunction saying wifey can't move child out of state. Got a male friend right now who just did it.
> 
> So my answer is if she wants to move kid stays here.


Absolutely.

Kid is a US Citizen. It matters.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Oh this isn't a double standard either. Courts will say that neither the mom or the dad can move away with the kid.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> She can't support a child on her own in brazil. She could barely support herself. She's delusional which means in my opinion kid stays here.
> 
> Btw this happens all the time in divorce cases. Dad files an injunction saying wifey can't move child out of state. Got a male friend right now who just did it.
> 
> So my answer is if she wants to move kid stays here.


Just checking you realised we are both agreeing the child should stay in the US on current circumstances, albeit our reasons may differ.



Conrad said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Kid is a US Citizen. It matters.


In the current situation it is a significant fact. But it is also kind of an accident. I'm sure that is easily changeable if the parents agree to do so.



Mavash. said:


> Oh this isn't a double standard either. Courts will say that neither the mom or the dad can move away with the kid.


US courts. If she had not come back from Rio, would a Brazilian court have sent him back to the US? Ad what would be the court position if the custodial parent moved within the US and across state lines?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> US courts. If she had not come back from Rio, would a Brazilian court have sent him back to the US? Ad what would be the court position if the custodial parent moved within the US and across state lines?


Had she not come back he might have been screwed which is why I kept insisting he do whatever it took to get his son back on US soil.

In the US the way it generally works is you need a court order BEFORE the spouse moves not after. That stops a spouse from up and moving across state lines before the D is final. If the spouses can't agree the kid stays put and they argue their case before a judge.

I've never seen it get that far usually by then the spouses have worked it out. One he did finally agree to let her move but it was only 2.5 hours a way and she meets him halfway for kid swap on weekends. Totally doable but he did get the injunction to stop her from just leaving without an adequate agreement in place. Because of the distance he negotiated a TON of time with his kids. She was kinda stupid. He gets the kids 3 weekends a month and 6 weeks in the summer but hey she agreed to it.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> US courts. If she had not come back from Rio, would a Brazilian court have sent him back to the US? Ad what would be the court position if the custodial parent moved within the US and across state lines?


Yes.. Brazil is part of the Hague Convention treaty. The only issue with Brazil is that many appeals are possible if one has a lot of money, and this can take long time. But sooner or later , could be 2 or 3 years, the child would be returned. Unless of course I waited several years to file, then they would say the child is already adjusted.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Because of the distance he negotiated a TON of time with his kids. She was kinda stupid. He gets the kids 3 weekends a month and 6 weeks in the summer but hey she agreed to it.


So sad when spending time with parents is the stuff of legal battles. I know why it happens. But so sad....

I stayed married for my kids. Lots of people tell me it's not a valid reason, and then I read posts like this, and think of 23 Christmases we would not have had as a family, 23 sets of birthdays, 23 years of all those special occasions......

MM I know things are bad right now, and it all may be beyond your control. But try not to give up on the marriage too soon, ok?

So sad.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Yes.. Brazil is part of the Hague Convention treaty. The only issue with Brazil is that many appeals are possible if one has a lot of money, and this can take long time. But sooner or later , could be 2 or 3 years, the child would be returned. Unless of course I waited several years to file, then they would say the child is already adjusted.


Sorry that you are even in a position if having to know this.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

In my friends case D was the best option. 

It's far better to come from a broken home than to grow up in one.

Her husband is a piece of work and I predict eventually he will lose interest in the kids once he finds someone new to marry. Despite getting all that time with the kids all he does is plop them in front of the tv while he does whatever. This is what he did during their marriage as well.

THAT is sad.

I say she was stupid but she was probably wise. Too early to tell.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Sorry that you are even in a position if having to know this.


Me too..

I emailed her trying to just calmly explain, and she started talking about her mom again, and how her mom is all alone.. And how she has more friends in Brazil...And how she feels she can get a better job in Brazil.. yes her mom that accused her of hitting her, and wished she was dead before kicking her out 2 times during the last visit.

Just very frustrating that she feels our son is 100% hers, and I can just send money and visit once a year.. I will not allow that to happen, and I do not know if she even realizes how the laws are..


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> Me too..
> 
> I emailed her trying to just calmly explain, and she started talking about her mom again, and how her mom is all alone.. And how she has more friends in Brazil...And how she feels she can get a better job in Brazil..
> 
> Just very frustrating that she feels our son is 100% hers, and I can just send money and visit once a year.. I will not allow that to happen, and I do not know if she even realizes how the laws are..


Do not explain.

Just cut off her access to the monies necessary to implement her plans and take legal measures to ensure your son stays here.

Then wait her out.

Also, do not delay.

Someone in Brazil may wire her money.

Be on the lookout for that possibility.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> I do not know if she even realizes how the laws are..


Not your problem.

Just stand your ground and protect yourself and your son.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

My read is also that she is delusional, but that this has been brewing for a while. I read a couple of your other threads and I think she definitely feels isolated here in the USA. She came here looking for a better life and thought she found a replacement for her daddy in you. She enjoyed it for a while, but here in the US, she has no friends, no family, no social life, no interaction with anyone but you and your son. 

This isn't Rio and you are not her daddy in that you will not kowtow to her financial whims and you actually place limits and boundaries on what she is permitted to spend. Her problems with money have never been resolved and she cannot take care of herself. In essence she is a 37 year old woman that has never "grown up". And in her mind at least, the limits you place on her spending equates to you trying to "control" her. Daddy never really put any limits on her.

Her upbringing and the life she has/had in Brazil is what is most comfortable, especially when all she does when she goes home is hang out and mooch off everyone. Why wouldn't she dream about that? It is the ideal situation. Unfortunately it isn't reality, but it is the only reality she sees when she goes down there and it is in total conflict with her reality here in the US, i.e. by herself, without any support, little money and caring for a 2-year old 24/7. 

There is no doubt in my mind she is compartmentalizing and isn't even thinking about the difficulties she would face living in Rio, how she could never make ends meet there or how mommy and daddy always had to bail her out of her financial problems. 

MM, YOU DEFINITELY NEED TO KEEP THE CHILD WITH YOU WHATEVER HAPPENS. If everything turns sour with the W, Mav’s suggestion to let her move down to Rio on her own without your child is a good one, but realistically, I don’t think your W is going to go along with it. There aren’t too many women out there who would willingly abandon their 2 year old child like that.

You could try to press for compromise with her as Wazza suggests, but what could that possibly look like that would work for you? She isn’t interested in staying right now and doesn't appear to have any interest in negotiating on that...maybe in a month or two she might be more amenable. I don’t know if you have seriously thought at all about a move down to Brazil with your wife and son. I realize that this was not in your plans and wasn't something you even agreed to when you married. You seem to understand the financial difficulty that will ensue, especially in Rio. Are there other towns you could live in there where you would be happy? This option would not rate high for me because if things don't go well for you two and you either have to move back to the US to make a living or you divorce, your child situation gets infinitely more complicated...especially if your W's mental situation doesn't improve. You are much better off with a divorce in the US than one in Brazil. Cutting the cord down there is going to turn out poorly for you in my opinion. Bottom line here is if divorce is something you definitely see on the horizon, you are going to be much better off just filing here in the near future.

Under normal circumstances I would suggest you stick it out for a set period of time, maybe a month or two and tell her to either work on the marriage or prepare to move out. She will need to get herself a job and start supporting herself. I don’t know if setting a deadline for that is a possibility and whether that would shock her enough to wake up and smell the coffee. Unfortunately, this woman appears to have been coddled most of her life and if you pushed her out in such a "callous" manner she is more than likely going to end up in a bad financial straits and wind up a couple of months later at your door begging for you to take her back. Sadly, you may wind up in a situation where you are compelled to deal with the financial fallout there and bail her out like her parents did years ago. 

Bottom line for me is your W needs some serious counseling. There is too much going on here for you to deal with on your own. Maybe you can get her to go under the guise of getting with a 3rd party to work on a plan for the future...near term and long-term. You have problems here that cannot be easily resolved. Furthermore you two aren't getting along well and need some help.

If she won't go...or things don't get better between you two in the next couple of months...divorce may be your best and really only other option. 

I am very sorry you are in this position. It must seem almost hopeless.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Tron said:


> My read is also that she is delusional, but that this has been brewing for a while. I read a couple of your other threads and I think she definitely feels isolated here in the USA. She came here looking for a better life and thought she found a replacement for her daddy in you. She enjoyed it for a while, but here in the US, she has no friends, no family, no social life, no interaction with anyone but you and your son.
> 
> This isn't Rio and you are not her daddy in that you will not kowtow to her financial whims and you actually place limits and boundaries on what she is permitted to spend. Her problems with money have never been resolved and she cannot take care of herself. In essence she is a 37 year old woman that has never "grown up". And in her mind at least, the limits you place on her spending equates to you trying to "control" her. Daddy never really put any limits on her.
> 
> ...


I couldnt afford to support myself in Rio.. I barely speak Portuguese.. Pretty much out of the question.. Her going without my son? Do not see that happening. I think the only hope is for her to come around, or we get a divorce and both work and live separately here.


But you are right about many things.. She has always been bailed out, and expects me to do the same.. Me having a budget is "controlling"..I could see her going to Rio, with my son, and then me having to support both of them forever from here..It would be one screw up after another.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> I could see her going to Rio, with my son, and then me having to support both of them forever from here..It would be one screw up after another.


Whatever legal steps you have to take to prevent this - take them.

Regardless of expense.

You can always make more money.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> I couldnt afford to support myself in Rio.. I barely speak Portuguese.. Pretty much out of the question.. Her going without my son? Do not see that happening. I think the only hope is for her to come around, or we get a divorce and both work and live separately here.


I think I agree that these are really your only two good options. And just fyi, I don't see her moving to Rio by herself as a good option either...that would be very tough on her and horrible for your son. 




marriedman321 said:


> But you are right about many things.. She has always been bailed out, and expects me to do the same.. Me having a budget is "controlling"..I could see her going to Rio, with my son, and then me having to support both of them forever from here..It would be one screw up after another.


That is why you cannot allow it. 

Is there any way she could have applied for Brazilian citizenship for your son or ordered a Brazilian passport for him while she was in Brazil without you knowing about it? 

Conrad is right that you should be in contact with an attorney to be ready to file temporary custody orders with travel restrictions. You need to be prepared on this. All these preparations aren't going to make reconciling with your W any easier, but it is what it is...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> Is there any way she could have applied for Brazilian citizenship for your son or ordered a Brazilian passport for him while she was in Brazil without you knowing about it?


Please check this out. It really worries me. It could be a game changer.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Please check this out. It really worries me. It could be a game changer.


It certainly makes playing the waiting game much more complicated and moves the divorce and court/legal stuff up to the forefront.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Tron said:


> It certainly makes playing the waiting game much more complicated and moves the divorce and court/legal stuff up to the forefront.


True, me taking the passport seemed to make things worse as well, but these past 3 nights have been the best I slept in 2 months. 

That is my debate now as well. Start legal proceedings, wait, etc.

As of now having my son back is such a huge relief that I am not even feeling pain yet as to what she is saying/doing to me. 

She just walks around with a pissed off look all day, ready to snap.. I did get a laugh out of her today, so at least for now, I am hoping her yelling and screaming stage is over. She supposedly has a job interview but will not tell me where or for what.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> True, me taking the passport seemed to make things worse as well, but these past 3 nights have been the best I slept in 2 months.
> 
> That is my debate now as well. Start legal proceedings, wait, etc.
> 
> ...


Do you have a financial discussion scheduled?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Do you have a financial discussion scheduled?


What do you mean by that?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> What do you mean by that?


The discussion that indicates which bills she will be responsible for.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Indicates (controlling) or discusses (empowering)? Agree with the concept, just quibbling over how it is presented.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

MarriedMan I think you have a decision to make. How much do you want to safeguard yourself if your wife stays as she is, and how much do you hope to reconcile. 

I think if you are as firm as you need to be to safeguard yourself, the harshness of your behaviour may damage your chances of reconciliation.

I'm not saying you need to consider being a doormat...far from it. But if you are totally firm and it's your way or the highway, I believe your chances of putting your marriage back together diminish.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> MarriedMan I think you have a decision to make. How much do you want to safeguard yourself if your wife stays as she is, and how much do you hope to reconcile.
> 
> I think if you are as firm as you need to be to safeguard yourself, the harshness of your behaviour may damage your chances of reconciliation.
> 
> I'm not saying you need to consider being a doormat...far from it. But if you are totally firm and it's your way or the highway, I believe your chances of putting your marriage back together diminish.


Well I did some research and there does not appear to be anyway that my wife can get a Brazilian passport for my son without my consent. I will makes some more calls to make sure though.

As for now I can be patient before I make any legal moves.

And no, I have not had that discusion about bills with her yet. The problem is there is no "discussing" and me indicating leads to her "feeling controlled".


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> Well I did some research and there does not appear to be anyway that my wife can get a Brazilian passport for my son without my consent. I will makes some more calls to make sure though.
> 
> As for now I can be patient before I make any legal moves.
> 
> And no, I have not had that discusion about bills with her yet. The problem is there is no "discussing" and me indicating leads to her "feeling controlled".


Sounds like you're afraid of her response.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Sounds like you're afraid of her response.


Discretion can be the better part of valour. You certainly need to be able to confront when needed, but someone whose only weapon is confrontation is like a bull in a china shop.

Let's not forget that the wife has just gone through an incredibly traumatic experience that appears to have possibly brought out some weaknesses in the marriage. Adding to an already high level of stress may be counterproductive, and unnecessary. The wife already says she wants work, which is a necessary step. Why not just help her find it. THEN have the conversation about sharing the bills.

P.S. my marriage is good, yet discussions about money still cause fights.....


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Wazza,

She says she wants to work to save money so she can take their kid back to Brazil.

A financial discussion is in order.

The sooner the better.

She needs to know that her check isn't going to an escape hatch without contributing to the household.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza, Are you suggesting he play along with her fantasy of leaving with the kid while trying to soften her up and keep her engaged in the M? I am sure she is going to be a little upset when he forces the issue on the financial stuff and makes her pay some bills. But making her do that won't kill her plans to leave, just slow them down...if she voluntarily pays. 

The long term gain by slowing those plans down is beneficial in my opinion, especially because the two of them seem to go through these cycles where they rekindle the relationship after she returns from these trips. 2 to 3 months can turn into 4 to 6 and maybe the M can get back on some solid ground.

I think maybe I agree that a scorched earth divorce plan is going to damage whatever chances they have to reconcile. 

The OP has a little bit of time to make a decision and before this all comes to a head anyway.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Wazza,
> 
> She says she wants to work to save money so she can take their kid back to Brazil.
> 
> ...


We agree a financial discussion is in order. I'd also be unambiguous that there will be no agreement for her to take the kid back to Brazil (and anything else that is really fundamentally not negotiable).

Beyond that, some thought is needed as to the balance between confrontation and conciliation. Just backing her into a corner and laying down the law is a great strategy if MM has already decided to divorce. Shock and awe. Not so great otherwise IMO. You can't make some one love you or stay married to you. It has to be earned.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Missed the part where I advised him to back her into a corner.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Missed the part where I advised him to back her into a corner.


If there won't ever be an agreement on taking the son and you are forcing her to pay bills, wouldn't she effectively be backed into a corner...well maybe one of two corners? Either work on the marriage here in the US or divorce and stay in the US. 

So the big question here is when to tell her the son in Brazil in not going to happen. That is the even bigger "fight" than the money.

I am not sure how you put that "nicely" so that she doesn't go ballistic. "I'm not ok with that" isn't going to soften the blow much.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> Wazza, Are you suggesting he play along with her fantasy of leaving with the kid while trying to soften her up and keep her engaged in the M? I am sure she is going to be a little upset when he forces the issue on the financial stuff and makes her pay some bills. But making her do that won't kill her plans to leave, just slow them down. The long term gain by slowing those plans down is beneficial in my opinion, especially because the two of them seem to go through these cycles where they rekindle the relationship after she returns from these trips. 2 to 3 months can turn into 4 to 6 and maybe the M can get back on some solid ground.
> 
> I think we can agree that a scorched earth divorce plan is going to damage whatever chances they have to reconcile.
> 
> The OP has a little bit of time to make a decision and before this all comes to a head anyway.


Hi Tron, my reply to Conrad may have answered you as well.

1) I would not play along for a second with the fantasy of leaving, and I would line up the legal avenues to prevent it.

2) I would support her in getting a job and having some freedom. At that stage I would have a financial discussion, using the extra costs of her working (childcare, extra housekeeping, etc) as the reason

3) I would pick the smallest set of things I could to be firm and unyielding about, and look for compromises on the rest. In those compromises I would be polite and caring, but still firm and not obsequious. I would cut her some slack due to her grief. 

4) I would stay quiet and avoid unnecessary fights. Sounds to me like they have more fighting than MM wants already, and sounds like the fights are entrenching their difficulties, not clearing the air.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Missed the part where I advised him to back her into a corner.


Missed the point where I said you did 

I do think it could have been inferred from your posts, but it was not directly stated and I don't know if that was your intention. Was worth drilling the question to be clear.


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Hi Tron, my reply to Conrad may have answered you as well.
> 
> 1) I would not play along for a second with the fantasy of leaving, and I would line up the legal avenues to prevent it.
> 
> ...


This all smacks of a sophisticated "Getting to Yes" scheme. Might work for a while, but there is a big elephant in the room that never gets resolved in a positive way for her...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> This all smacks of a sophisticated "Getting to Yes" scheme. Might work for a while, but there is a big elephant in the room that never gets resolved in a positive way for her...


The elephant being going home....?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> The elephant being going home....?


...with S2. Yes.

Sad thing is that S2 may never get to know his family in Brazil because she pulled this latest stunt. If I was the OP, I would never be comfortable allowing him to go down there again.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Tron said:


> ...with S2. Yes.
> 
> Sad thing is that S2 may never get to know his family in Brazil because she pulled this latest stunt. If I was the OP, I would never be comfortable allowing him to go down there again.


Never


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I like the scheme BTW. She starts to get some independence, gets out of the house, makes some money, meets people, and stops dwelling so much on all the bad things that have happened over the last year. This may ultimately do the most good for her and ultimately/hopefully the M.

And maybe can keep the "peace" for a while.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> ...with S2. Yes.
> 
> Sad thing is that S2 may never get to know his family in Brazil because she pulled this latest stunt. If I was the OP, I would never be comfortable allowing him to go down there again.


I suspect her going home without S2 is still an issue to MM. I think he is hurting and wants his wife back. May be wrong.

The only outcome I can see ticking all the boxes is if they reconcile and can safely travel as a couple. If they divorce it's 20 years of purgatory (at least) for one parent (at least).

To that extent my post represented the only direction that could possibly tame the elephant. Right now she wants to leave. Playing too much hardball seems to me more likely to reinforce that than mitigate it. 

"Getting to Yes" is worth reading imo.


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Oh and Conrad...IT'S WORKING. Keeping everything low key, unruffled, with a little humor. Have 3 relatively happy women in the house...at least happy with me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Tron said:


> Oh and Conrad...IT'S WORKING. Keeping everything low key, unruffled, with a little humor. Have 3 relatively happy women in the house...at least happy with me.


Stay the course brother.

I recommend nothing I haven't tried myself


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

So I get home from work and she has a new plan.. She wants to reconcile with me..On the condition I give her the passport and sign a paper that my son can travel in the future with her back home to see family. Not a legal paper, but something me and her draw up and take to a notary.

She has a job interview today, and quickly her tone changed about working.. She wants to see and care for our son everyday instead of daycare, says the money will not be much more, and just wants an allowance from me. I think she realizes now how good she had it. 

Which is what we went through before.. She claims I prevent her from working, but in the end she never really wants to give up being a stay at home mom.

I suggested she still go to the interview as the job is in fashion that she likes, and there is no way I am handing her the passport. . 

At this point not sure if it is genuine or a trick to get the passport. Regardless I do not feel good about it yet, and am not giving it to her..


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Pretty much what I would do, I think. Hang in there. She does not deserve your trust on this matter right now. And I genuinely believe that working will be better for her. The devil makes work for idle hands, and all that.

Plus if she wants to reconcile, the conditions are frankly horsesh1t.

Is your wife a citizen of the US or Brazil? Sorry if you mentioned it earlier, but I don't recall.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

But post script....it will be extremely difficult to stop the kid from going to Brazil until he is an adult. What you are doing is only a short term bandaid, not a solution. Don't worry about that now, but keep it in the back of your mind.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Never


And while I have been stressing over this since it was posted (boy Conrad knows how to give a single word impact!!) it has to be considered.

Remembering that it isn't just MM and his wife affected, it is the son, and the family back in Brazil.

Three posts in a row....sorry MM....I am just worrying for you.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> So I get home from work and she has a new plan.. She wants to reconcile with me..On the condition I give her the passport and sign a paper that my son can travel in the future with her back home to see family. Not a legal paper, but something me and her draw up and take to a notary.
> 
> She has a job interview today, and quickly her tone changed about working.. She wants to see and care for our son everyday instead of daycare, says the money will not be much more, and just wants an allowance from me. I think she realizes now how good she had it.
> 
> ...


Manipulation.

She needs to work a job.

She needs to work a job for several years.

Actions have consequences.

She needs to learn the joy of paying bills.

She will bank any allowance you give her and will disappear as soon as she is able.

Don't do it.

Codependent men often make the mistake of thinking women will love them if we make their life easy.

Does not work that way.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I don't care if she works or not but the allowance is a big fat NO.

Reward her for bad behavior? 

Cut access to the money, no Internet, she made this bed she can lie in it until she earns your trust again.

You don't threaten D, be mean and abusive then the next day say oh I changed my mind let me have my cushy life back.

No.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Allowance? No. It is not about just the money any more. Time to get a job.

Passport? Not only no, but HELL NO!

Trust? Not for a long while. 

Quick question: If everything is all good now, why does she need access to your son's passport?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Tron said:


> Allowance? No. It is not about just the money any more. Time to get a job.
> 
> Passport? Not only no, but HELL NO!
> 
> ...


It's a trick.

As a homemaker she figured out after daycare costs she won't make much money. An allowance is the better option. She can put that money in her "dump my husband and run back home fund".

Hence why she wants the passport back and she thinks by playing nice she will get it.

She's a big fat manipulating liar.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> It's a trick.
> 
> As a homemaker she figured out after daycare costs she won't make much money. An allowance is the better option. She can put that money in her "dump my husband and run back home fund".
> 
> ...


No way to agree with this more.


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

MarriedMan

You really need to give your wife consequences.

And she needs to grow up.

Make sure she goes to her interview.

Do you own the home you are in?

If yes, does is your wife on the mortgage?


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## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> So I get home from work and she has a new plan.. She wants to reconcile with me..On the condition I give her the passport and sign a paper that my son can travel in the future with her back home to see family. Not a legal paper, but something me and her draw up and take to a notary.
> 
> She has a job interview today, and quickly her tone changed about working.. She wants to see and care for our son everyday instead of daycare, says the money will not be much more, and just wants an allowance from me. I think she realizes now how good she had it.
> 
> ...


Don't be foolish. Of course its a trick for her to get back the passport.

Is the passport hidden somewhere she has access to?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

keko said:


> Don't be foolish. Of course its a trick for her to get back the passport.
> 
> Is the passport hidden somewhere she has access to?


Get a safe deposit box, put the passport in there, and keep the key at work.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> It's a trick.
> 
> As a homemaker she figured out after daycare costs she won't make much money. An allowance is the better option. She can put that money in her "dump my husband and run back home fund".
> 
> ...


Exactly. I cannot believe she does not see how transparent this idea is. She was trying to say i should pay her what daycare costs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> She was trying to say i should pay her what daycare costs.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!

You see, if you did that then she could leave you in 3 weeks instead of 3 months. What a great idea, she is just too smart for you MM.
;-)


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Tron said:


> Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> You see, if you did that then she could leave you in 3 weeks instead of 3 months. What a great idea, she is just too smart for you MM.
> ;-)
> ...


And she didn't have to work a job to get it either. 

MM lock up your valuables.

Your wife has lost her mind.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> And she didn't have to work a job to get it either.
> 
> MM lock up your valuables.
> 
> Your wife has lost her mind.


She's likely to pawn things.

Seriously.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> She's likely to pawn things.
> 
> Seriously.


Luckily I do not think she even knows what that is.. Anyway, as long as the passport is secure, and it is, my son will be safe with me.. If she wanted to leave by herself the door is open anytime. 

The strange thing is this.. When most women throw these ideas around, it seems they are serious.. As for my wife, I am sure she is serious at the moment, but it just depends which moment.. Does she really want to divorce and be a working single mom? Does she really hate me this much as she says? I am perplexed myself.

Does she want to work? Watch the kid? Actually work and live in Brazil? I have no real idea.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Luckily I do not think she even knows what that is.. Anyway, as long as the passport is secure, and it is, my son will be safe with me.. If she wanted to leave by herself the door is open anytime.
> 
> The strange thing is this.. When most women throw these ideas around, it seems they are serious.. As for my wife, I am sure she is serious at the moment, but it just depends which moment.. Does she really want to divorce and be a working single mom? Does she really hate me this much as she says? I am perplexed myself.


No she wants to cake eat. She moves back home with your son and you pay for it.

Had a homemaker friend that wanted this. She concocted this plan where he'd give her half his check while she lived elsewhere....out of state.

Crazy and this isn't the first acquaintance I've had that sought this.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> No she wants to cake eat.


Bingo


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Ok, but hang on a second. We all agree...don't trust her, no money no passport, time to get a job.

But we should also recognise the opportunity here. This is the moment for a carefully crafted, non vindictive but non yielding dash of cold water to the face. It is potentially a fantastic moment of truth.


Time to point out:

1. You love her and want the marriage to work, but the way she has treated you you recognise that she might walk or make things so unbearable that you choose to walk. Not what you want to do, but she shouldn't assume her words are water off a duck's back.

2. In the event of her leaving, you would seek full custody of the son (if that is your plan) and that you would take all and any steps necessary to prevent her taking the son permanently to Brazil. At the same time you want him to see his family, and will look for ways for that to happen while ensuring he returns to the US, but at this stage you are unsure what that would take so no promises whether it is even possible.

3. The family finances have taken a hit with Brazil trips and may take another hit soon with any divorce and related legal proceedings. So you need to save. You really think it is time for her to work and help carry the household bills. You also want her working because if you divorce in future she needs to be able to look after your son. Therefore, whether she gets a job or not is her choice, but no longer funding her to to be a stay at home mum is your choice. (I wouldn't leave her with nothing here...particularly if you have a long standing agreement that she be stay at home. There is a fine line here between being controlling vs giving her full independence, which includes full responsibility).

4. You want a great marriage. If she wants the same she need only say the word. You are happy to talk through things, happy to work in behaviours you need to change, happy to seek counselling. Balls in her court because she has to be committed too and you are unsure whether she is.

If it were me, I would give her these things in writing, give her a couple of days alone, then on my return be friendly, caring but reserved. If she continued to carry on I would stay reserved. If she makes an effort I would thaw. Reward the good behaviours, ignore the bad. It's not about continuing or escalating a fight. It is about dealing with issues.

Don't be afraid to put divorce calmly into the discussion. Don't leave it as an elephant in the room. It is a possibility, it is ALWAYS a possibility..so many people get hit with it out of the blue. It is just common sense for major life plans to include it. I cannot stress strongly enough what a positive effect this mindset had on my own marriage. 

You just have to be very careful to position divorce as an undesirable contingency you feel bound to plan for, not a threat (as she appears to have done).

And why should you not deal as a couple with the reality that if you divorce the Brazil/US thing is going to be a mess however it plays out? Why should she not consider the same impact to her life that you are worrying about for yours? Again, not vindictive, but let's be real here.

And don't be afraid to try and so some nice things for her and with her at the same time. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. If it were my wife I would get a pizza and a nice bottle of wine, put on a DVD she likes and give her a footrub. Make time for things like that. Costs little, and gives you a pleasant evening together where you can avoid heavy conversations.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Ok, but hang on a second. We all agree...don't trust her, no money no passport, time to get a job.
> 
> But we should also recognise the opportunity here. This is the moment for a carefully crafted, non vindictive but non yielding dash of cold water to the face. It is potentially a fantastic moment of truth.
> 
> ...


And I would like to add this..

My son also has extended family in the states that like to see him.. A grandpa, Aunt, cousins, nephews etc..

My wife's family, is made of a lost sister n law, some nephews that are 20 yo boys, and her mom. Her mom could always fly here as well. So could any of them. There is no reason why my son would have to go there. 

My wife was SO adamant about wanting to put our son in daycare and work for the past month. (When we were on normal terms of trying to work this out). Then as soon as the opportunity presented itself, she pulled a 180. I think at the time of her words to me she DID want to actually work and have her own money.. I think she was tired of staying home with our son all day. But, I KNEW she did not really want to work, and does not want to put our son in daycare. yesterday she was then giving me examples of how kids are better raised by a stay at home mom, than in daycare. 

Which is why I question her entire plan from the beginning. She will work in Brazil full time, put our kid in daycare, and pay all the bills herself? Hahahah.. yeah right. She does not want that either.
Even if I sent her money, she could not afford it, nor could she handle it.

Which is why all of this confuses me.. How could she be so adamant about wanting things, but they are things she does not REALLY even want? 

She also is very impulsive.. She wants what she wants immediately.. She really did leave her job, family, and home to marry me, after only about 2 months of dating.. I feel she really did love me at some time. But as quickly as she decided to marry me, now she is that quick to want out.. If that is what she really wants, or if it is just what she says.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Impulsive is bad. She does things on a whim without thoughts to consequences. Had she known you were going to take the passport she wouldn't have come back.

I guarantee it.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

All of what you say is true. But is it strategic?

Not disagreeing with any of your points, and not necessarily defending mine..it is your life, your marriage.

I hope you can see my last post as entirely consistent with my earlier advice. And I hope you can see it is a manifesto for reconciliation, not a step towards divorce.

She needs to be confronted with the long term impact of her decisions. And it needs to be what life will do to her, not what you will do to her.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Impulsive is bad. She does things on a whim without thoughts to consequences. Had she known you were going to take the passport she wouldn't have come back.
> 
> I guarantee it.


I truly don't think this one is over yet. If she really wants to get him back to Brazil, nothin short of no unsupervised custody will truly stop her.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Wazza I'm wondering how strategic was it for her to marry a man she'd only known for 2 months? Not only that but she left everything behind to do so.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Impulsive/impatient is the mother's milk of anger.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Wazza I'm wondering how strategic was it for her to marry a man she'd only known for 2 months? Not only that but she left everything behind to do so.


Totally not strategic, and if she married too fast, then probably so did he.

The past is done, you can only change the future.

My point about strategy is that MM should be focussing on the key issues and desired outcomes, not getting bogged down in details.

Fr example...strategic...if you divorce, relationships with extended family are going to be a problem. Tactical...arguments about the relative merits of out state US visits to extended family vs Brazilian visits. If you fix the strategic issue the tactical problem also goes away.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Impulsive/impatient is the mother's milk of anger.


And all sorts of other bad things.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> My point about strategy is that MM should be focussing on the key issues and desired outcomes, not getting bogged down in details.
> 
> Fr example...strategic...if you divorce, relationships with extended family are going to be a problem. Tactical...arguments about the relative merits of out state US visits to extended family vs Brazilian visits. If you fix the strategic issue the tactical problem also goes away.


This is a male way of solving problems.

Women are emotional and are all about the details.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> This is a male way of solving problems.
> 
> Women are emotional and are all about the details.


And, they use them to tear you apart.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> This is a male way of solving problems.
> 
> Women are emotional and are all about the details.


As a generalisation, I agree emotions matter more to women. I don't agree with you about women being more detail oriented.

Are all the emotional exchanges clearing the air or leading to positive outcomes? 

I am not saying ignore them. I am saying put them in context. Nor am I saying it is easy. That is why I proposed doing it in writing. I wouldn't trust myself to be controlled.

You are female, right? How would you modify the approach? Or if you would junk it totally, what approach would you take? The more ideas MM has to chose from the better.

Specifically, you earlier comments on her impulsiveness. How would you rein that in? And do you think she is alone in impulsiveness? (He married quickly too!)


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> And, they use them to tear you apart.


Been there.

So Conrad, if I said the emotions are tearing me apart, wouldn't you advise me to be detached? Cool? Dispassionate?

Isn't that what MM needs to do here? How would you do that?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I suggest he set strong boundaries and observe.

No discussions, no wine, no pizza, and no foot massages.

She screwed up and if he rewards her in any way with any sort of attention she will see him as weak.

I'd observe to see what "new" plans she comes up.

How can he deal with anything until she's done changing her mind?

At this point who knows what she really wants but odds are its not positive hence her asking for the passport and money.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I suggest he set strong boundaries and observe.
> 
> No discussions, no wine, no pizza, and no foot massages.
> 
> ...


Strong boundaries, agree.

No discussions, wine, etc...ok. Rewards and weakness. Well remember at the same time as rubbing feet my approach has him insisting they plan for a possible future divorce. But point taken, that reflects my style. I wanted my wife to understand both how much I love her and how quickly ANY future infidelity will end the marriage. I could do it without being weak. The nice bits were done to do something nice for her, not to seek approval. If that makes sense.

And to be blunt, when I took that approach is when my wife cracked and the walls went down. So I am biased because it worked for me.

If she is an impulsive person when will she stop changing her mind. My approach attempted to set a big picture that could be a constant. I hoped that this might get her to steady herself by giving a context for decisions. How else could MM get her to become more stable?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Strong boundaries, agree.
> 
> No discussions, wine, etc...ok. Rewards and weakness. Well remember at the same time as rubbing feet my approach has him insisting they plan for a possible future divorce. But point taken, that reflects my style. I wanted my wife to understand both how much I love her and how quickly ANY future infidelity will end the marriage. I could do it without being weak. The nice bits were done to do something nice for her, not to seek approval. If that makes sense.
> 
> ...


Wait for her to crack and the walls to come down.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Mavash. said:


> Wait for her to crack and the walls to come down.


Yes - kissing her ass is not likely to work.

That's been tried.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> Wait for her to crack and the walls to come down.


Using my own words against me? 

Different situation...my wife was not impulsive but controlled. But without going into the specifics of that...I was needy when younger, the detached after her affair, then found it in myself to care for her again without being needy. And it informs my advice I guess.

But what does crack mean for Mrs MM. if she's naturally impulsive that will always be her. How does MM know she has cracked?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Yes - kissing her ass is not likely to work.
> 
> That's been tried.


I could kiss her ass, or I could be an ******* to her, or I could find a middle ground. Successful marriages are about finding that ground.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Wazza said:


> I could kiss her ass, or I could be an ******* to her, or I could find a middle ground. Successful marriages are about finding that ground.


Not sure where I suggested being an azzhole.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> Using my own words against me?
> 
> Different situation...my wife was not impulsive but controlled. But without going into the specifics of that...I was needy when younger, the detached after her affair, then found it in myself to care for her again without being needy. And it informs my advice I guess.
> 
> But what does crack mean for Mrs MM. if she's naturally impulsive that will always be her. How does MM know she has cracked?


No I agree with you actually on that. It was the right move at the right time.

Crack for her means he lets her fail. And he will know when it's happened same as you did.

At the moment his wife is still (I think) plotting her exit.

That's not cracked. 

She's still delusional enough to think she can make it on her own in brazil.

She just needs cash and the passport.

Cracked likely means she realizes she can't.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Not sure where I suggested being an azzhole.


I don't think you did. I was expanding on what you said, not disagreeing with it. I thought as stated you were right but incomplete.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Wazza said:


> I don't think you did. I was expanding on what you said, not disagreeing with it. I thought as stated you were right but incomplete.


Seems to be a pattern.

I guess some people like arguing with things that others didn't actually say.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> No I agree with you actually on that. It was the right move at the right time.
> 
> Crack for her means he lets her fail. And he will know when it's happened same as you did.
> 
> ...


If I was her and I wanted out I would be solving the problem of getting the kid across the border and out of American jurisdiction, particularly if I was travelling on a Brazilian passport. The child of a Brazilian citizen gets automatic citizenship.

MM is going to live with this until the child is an adult unless he can repair the marriage. My worry about just being cold is that it gives her no reason to stay in the marriage other than his money. 

The balance is to be loving without being needy. And even then it's down to her. He can't do it alone.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Mavash. said:


> No I agree with you actually on that. It was the right move at the right time.
> 
> Crack for her means he lets her fail. And he will know when it's happened same as you did.
> 
> ...


This is a good point..And as I said, she "cracked" already when it came to putting our son into daycare, which she adamantly claimed she wanted so bad..Along with the job she has been saying she wanted , with passion, for the past month. When I give in and say "ok go ahead" then she decides on her own she does not want to. 

But, as for Brazil, and with my son involved, this is trickier to navigate. Not a chance I want her to take.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> This is a good point..And as I said, she "cracked" already when it came to putting our son into daycare, which she adamantly claimed she wanted so bad..Along with the job she has been saying she wanted , with passion, for the past month. When I give in and say "ok go ahead" then she decides on her own she does not want to.
> 
> But, as for Brazil, and with my son involved, this is trickier to navigate. Not a chance I want her to take.


You give defiant people what they want - within limits.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Seems to be a pattern.
> 
> I guess some people like arguing with things that others didn't actually say.


What matters here is a compete picture for MM.

Your point I think, grovelling won't work.

My point, i agree but I also think overall harshness is a bad strategy. The best approach is somewhere in between.

Let me one if this is an inaccurate summary.


----------



## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Wazza said:


> If I was her and I wanted out I would be solving the problem of getting the kid across the border and out of American jurisdiction, particularly if I was travelling on a Brazilian passport. The child of a Brazilian citizen gets automatic citizenship.
> 
> MM is going to live with this until the child is an adult unless he can repair the marriage. My worry about just being cold is that it gives her no reason to stay in the marriage other than his money.
> 
> The balance is to be loving without being needy. And even then it's down to her. He can't do it alone.


I'm no expert on taking a child out of the country.

I don't want mm to be cold. Not at all. I just want him to stay centered with strong iron clad boundaries.

He can be loving without being needy. I just think its too soon since she declared hatred of him what two days ago?


----------



## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> If I was her and I wanted out I would be solving the problem of getting the kid across the border and out of American jurisdiction, particularly if I was travelling on a Brazilian passport. The child of a Brazilian citizen gets automatic citizenship.
> 
> MM is going to live with this until the child is an adult unless he can repair the marriage. My worry about just being cold is that it gives her no reason to stay in the marriage other than his money.
> 
> The balance is to be loving without being needy. And even then it's down to her. He can't do it alone.


I am not worried about her becoming a fugitive with my child.. She is not really the type to be crossing borders, living on the run etc.. If she did somehow illegally smuggle my son out of the country she would still be held liable under the Hague Convention and she knows this.

I am also worried about this... Can I trust her again even if she "fell back in love" with me? Will I love her again? Will i feel comfortable making long term life plans with her? I do not know. before she left we started to try for baby # 2 and were looking at homes.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> I am not worried about her becoming a fugitive with my child.. She is not really the type to be crossing borders, living on the run etc.. If she did somehow illegally smuggle my son out of the country she would still be held liable under the Hague Convention and she knows this.
> 
> I am also worried about this... Can I trust her again even if she "fell back in love" with me? Will I love her again? Will i feel comfortable making long term life plans with her? I do not know. before she left we started to try for baby # 2 and were looking at homes.


Not a lawyer, but my understanding is that if your wife is still a Brazilian citizen then so is your child. What does The Hague convention say about a Brazilian mother taking a Brazilian child home to Brazil?

Apologise if you have already covered this with your legal adviser. But I am mindful of a various cases I have read of (none involving the US) where parents did just this to relocate their children internationally.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Mavash. said:


> I'm no expert on taking a child out of the country.
> 
> I don't want mm to be cold. Not at all. I just want him to stay centered with strong iron clad boundaries.
> 
> He can be loving without being needy. I just think its too soon since she declared hatred of him what two days ago?


I see the point. Hod the pizza until she has made some level of amends. I agree.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

A child born in the US is a US Citizen.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> A child born in the US is a US Citizen.


So if both Brazil and the US recognise the child as a citizen, what happens?

Just raising it to make sure it is considered.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Not a lawyer, but my understanding is that if your wife is still a Brazilian citizen then so is your child. What does The Hague convention say about a Brazilian mother taking a Brazilian child home to Brazil?
> 
> Apologise if you have already covered this with your legal adviser. But I am mindful of a various cases I have read of (none involving the US) where parents did just this to relocate their children internationally.


Well, I am also a German citizen. It is still kidnapping under the Hague Convention if I take my child and live in Germany against her wishes. But to answer your question, it is kidnapping under the Hague Convention. 

Millions of Americans have dual citizenship. That's the reason for the Hague Convention.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Well, 2 days since I would not give her the passport with her "new plan". She will not look at me, acknowledge me, leaves the room when I am in it, will not sleep in the same bed etc. Would not tell me if she went to the interview, how it went etc..


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> Well, 2 days since I would not give her the passport with her "new plan". She will not look at me, acknowledge me, leaves the room when I am in it, will not sleep in the same bed etc. Would not tell me if she went to the interview, how it went etc..


I'm so sorry.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> Well, 2 days since I would not give her the passport with her "new plan". She will not look at me, acknowledge me, leaves the room when I am in it, will not sleep in the same bed etc. Would not tell me if she went to the interview, how it went etc..


Like Mav...I don't have anything helpful to add except that at least you can see her for what she is. I'm sad for you MM.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

We spoke briefly on the phone today and she said she wants to be with her mom for her mom's birthday in August.. Then she said she wants to spend her own bday in december in Brazil.. I said no problem at all, but our son can stay here. 

Of course, this did not go over well and we have not spoken since. 

if this continues I have no other choice but to check my legal avenues.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> We spoke briefly on the phone today and she said she wants to be with her mom for her mom's birthday in August.. Then she said she wants to spend her own bday in december in Brazil.. I said no problem at all, but our son can stay here.
> 
> Of course, this did not go over well and we have not spoken since.
> 
> if this continues I have no other choice but to check my legal avenues.


Check them now.

All roads lead to Rome.

Every single question/engagement she has initiated leads to her and your son in Brazil - permanently.


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## wilderness (Jan 9, 2013)

File for an emergency injunction, friend. It may not 100% protect you but it will certainly make your wife think twice before abducting your child and going to Brazil.
I can't believe some of the advice you are getting on here. Your wife's behaviour is so outrageous that I'd be hesitant to trust her to even watch your child. Her 'plan' is deplorable and selfish beyond my comprehension. On top of the emergency injunction, I would not give this woman one penny.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Things have gotten better.. She gave up trying to go to Brazil and we have been closer to being a couple again.. She still sleeps in the other room however.

We had a good day Sunday, actually were kissing etc, until she just flipped out and went off on me for "not parking close enough to our door, says I parked to close to a wall, and was not helping her remove the child from our car.. After I took her out for breakfast and dinner, and then spent 4 hours at the mall this was extremely annoying.. So we did not talk the rest of the night again... And she says "See we always fight"..

She goes out of her way to make things difficult then says "See, you arent helping".. An example could be getting out of the car, her taking our son, and then filling both hands with packages and struggling..In these situations my hands are already full and she knows I would just make another trip to the car.. But she has to do the "poor me, you do not help, look I need help" seemingly on purpose just to start drama.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

When she starts down this road, you try to explain, right?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> When she starts down this road, you try to explain, right?


No, it turns into me getting frustrated/mad and saying"What is wrong with you, and why are you complaining.. ".


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> No, it turns into me getting frustrated/mad and saying"What is wrong with you, and why are you complaining.. ".


So, you're looking for the victim chair.

Have you thought of standing up to her?

It's been proven to make men more attractive.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Conrad said:


> So, you're looking for the victim chair.
> 
> Have you thought of standing up to her?
> 
> It's been proven to make men more attractive.


In a situation like I described, other than telling her I do not want to be talked to like that, what would be standing up to her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> In a situation like I described, other than telling her I do not want to be talked to like that, what would be standing up to her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Stop asking questions. Start telling her things:

"I don't like where this conversation is headed"

"I'm not ok with these questions"

"I'm sorry you feel that way"

She will have no response to these and will be forced to deal with her own venom - rather than dumping it on you.


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## OrangeCrush (Sep 12, 2012)

idk how much you are familiar with Brazilian culture but imho if you want to get anywhere with her (and by 'get anywhere' i mean 'have any chance of stopping the incessant word vomit coming out of her mouth'), you have to adopt the attitude of the men of her culture, because that is what she knows and expects. that is very close to the 'alpha' man typically described on this site, with an added bit of fiery temper- you take absolutely no sh*t and she knows it. 

Now, she feels 'safe' to insult you and berate you all the time because she knows you won't blow up at her. You seem very calm and level headed, which is usually a good thing but with her- she just doesn't respect that, and sees it as being a pushover and she can say/do anything she wants to you with no consequences. I would usually not advocate losing your temper but in this case, I think one huge blowup would shock the sh*t out of her and that might be what you need.

ugh, i have to say, at first i was sympathetic to her and felt sorry for her- her father died, she is lonely and has culture shock, she misses her home, probably depression, etc. but the more you post about what she says and does, the more I think 'holy crap now i feel sorry for YOU and would not blame you at all for sending her packing'. i don't know how you put up with all of this nonsense!


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Stop asking questions. Start telling her things:
> 
> "I don't like where this conversation is headed"
> 
> ...


An occasional "Are you done" feels kinda good too.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Tron said:


> An occasional "Are you done" feels kinda good too.


But, you have to raise the eyebrow first.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> But, you have to raise the eyebrow first.


Oh yeah...don't forget to raise the eyebrow.  

When do you pull out the "we see things differently" line?


So Conrad, what are your thoughts on Orange Crush's latina angle? Do different cultures require different consideration?

I think Regroup's got himself a hotheaded Puerto Rican and anger never got him anything but more word vomit.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Tron said:


> Oh yeah...don't forget to raise the eyebrow.
> 
> When do you pull out the "we see things differently" line?
> 
> ...


I think the culture plays a role for sure. I think they become accustomed to drama and passion..games..I have blown up before with some success but it usually causes her to shut down and withdraw. Kissing ass is definitely no good, but neither is losing control.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OrangeCrush (Sep 12, 2012)

Tron said:


> So Conrad, what are your thoughts on Orange Crush's latina angle? Do different cultures require different consideration?
> 
> I think Regroup's got himself a hotheaded Puerto Rican and anger never got him anything but more word vomit.


well true everyone is different, even within a culture, so what works for one person might be a disaster on someone else...but it doesn't seem like what the OP is doing now (basically just taking it) is working for him, so he has to change things up somehow.

ok so i see fighting back doesn't work that well for you/her...what about less of 'losing control/blowing up' and just more 'being dominant'? you know, the alpha male stuff that I personally hate for myself but can't deny it does work really well on some ladies.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> I think the culture plays a role for sure. I think they become accustomed to drama and passion..games..I have blown up before with some success but it usually causes her to shut down and withdraw. Kissing ass is definitely no good, but neither is losing control.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What is her demeanor towards you after you blow up? Is she respectful of you afterwards (my man stood up to me) or is she withdrawing and pouting because her concerns weren't validated?

Kissing ass is rarely good BTW.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Well another issue is that our child is always around so I try to control myself. In the past when "I lost it" it seems to work. I think it is bettwr sometimes just to make a joke out of it as opposed to letting it bother me. It is sort of her way to control me recently.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

I married a fiery one that's for sure Tron. 

I am not the yelling type, but I didn't handle our situations properly. 

I was dismissive and condescending.

Best case for MM is stand up to her in a Cool, Firm, and Dispassionate manner.

His spouse wants to get a response - rattle his cage. His best approach in dealing with it is to show her that he's unflappable but won't put up with her crazy behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Tron said:


> Oh yeah...don't forget to raise the eyebrow.
> 
> When do you pull out the "we see things differently" line?
> 
> ...


Tron,

You agree with defiant people. I see so many arguments/holes I used to fall into over insignificant trivia.

If it doesn't impact me, who cares? Agree.

It's when the boundary pushing gets personal that you need to maintain the cool. (Of course, that's when it's most likely to get hot)

"I'm sorry you feel that way" is a great line.

"Are you done?" with the raised eyebrow - after a rant

"I see your point, but we see this differently"

What's she going to say?, "No you don't!"

Temper is best reserved for when you're going to leave the room.


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## OrangeCrush (Sep 12, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> Best case for MM is stand up to her in a Cool, Firm, and Dispassionate manner.
> 
> His spouse wants to get a response - rattle his cage. His best approach in dealing with it is to show her that he's unflappable but won't put up with her crazy behavior.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


this is probably even better advice than mine.  although it might get worse before it gets better, like if she's not getting a reaction out of you she might ramp it up and be even more obnoxious to try and make you crack.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

OrangeCrush said:


> this is probably even better advice than mine.  although it might get worse before it gets better, like if she's not getting a reaction out of you she might ramp it up and be even more obnoxious to try and make you crack.


Count on it.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

OrangeCrush said:


> this is probably even better advice than mine.  although it might get worse before it gets better, like if she's not getting a reaction out of you she might ramp it up and be even more obnoxious to try and make you crack.


Yes.. one time I said something like u are cute when you are mad" and she started laughing and it went away instantly. I am seeing that wverything is a game. She does this one a lot as well. "Why dont you take him to the park for some alone time". Now if I say " why dont you come with us? " she becomes adamant about not going. If I say "ok sounds good. See you" she then wants to go and hurries to get ready.

I cant really figure my new wife out, but I do like the "are you done? ".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> Yes.. one time I said something like u are cute when you are mad" and she started laughing and it went away instantly. I am seeing that wverything is a game. She does this one a lot as well. "Why dont you take him to the park for some alone time". Now if I say " why dont you come with us? " she becomes adamant about not going. If I say "ok sounds good. See you" she then wants to go and hurries to get ready.
> 
> I cant really figure my new wife out, but I do like the "are you done? ".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Start using it.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> "I see your point, but we see this differently"
> 
> What's she going to say?, "No you don't!"


They may continue to try and convince you that they're right...

I suppose the adder "and I'm not going to change my mind" might be appropriate.




Conrad said:


> Temper is best reserved for when you're going to leave the room.


So simple, I don't know why I didn't see it before now. I remember after my DDay and during the therapy following that, that my IC said that it is ok to be angry once in a while. The key seems to be to get angry, let it out and *then leave*. The "then leave" part was what I was missing...things tend to escalate when you blow up and stick around.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Tron said:


> They may continue to try and convince you that they're right...
> 
> I suppose the adder "and I'm not going to change my mind" might be appropriate.
> 
> ...


Any time you try to convince, the needle gets stuck on "escalate"


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> I cant really figure my new wife out, but I do like the "are you done? ".
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Regroup has become a master at using that one too. Stops her dead in her tracks.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Any time you try to convince, the needle gets stuck on "escalate"


YES!!!!!


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

I used "Are you finished? yesterday afternoon. Didn't hear another peep afterwards.

Never did she think I'd become this bold. It's probably driving her nuts. 

Who is this guy? Lol.

I told Chip once... You can't Friend Zone a guy that says: Are you done?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Another thing I notice, and maybe my wife gets this ftom her mom, is that my wife wants others to feel sorry for hey amd wants to be sad. 

When my wifes m om lost her husband and son she was making it all about herself. She even tries to say she is sick for attention. My wife is doing the same.." oh I have to sleep on the floor.. oh my nails look horrible.. oh you ruined my dream of raising my kid in brazil. Ohh. I dont have one dollar" etc.

Having a beautiful 2 yr old should be the best time of our lives. But she enjoys "acting sad" like some martyr of sorts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Here is an example. She has 30 pairs of shoes but the one day it is raining she wears her oldest pair that has a hole in them. Then she has to make drama.. " ohh. I dont even have shoes and my feet have to get wet".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> Another thing I notice, and maybe my wife gets this ftom her mom, is that my wife wants others to feel sorry for hey amd wants to be sad.
> 
> When my wifes m om lost her husband and son she was making it all about herself. She even tries to say she is sick for attention. My wife is doing the same.." oh I have to sleep on the floor.. oh my nails look horrible.. oh you ruined my dream of raising my kid in brazil. Ohh. I dont have one dollar" etc.
> 
> ...


An Overview of the Drama Triangle

The key for you is to stay off the triangle...nice and centered in the middle.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> Another thing I notice, and maybe my wife gets this ftom her mom, is that my wife wants others to feel sorry for hey amd wants to be sad.
> 
> When my wifes m om lost her husband and son she was making it all about herself. She even tries to say she is sick for attention. My wife is doing the same.." oh I have to sleep on the floor.. oh my nails look horrible.. oh you ruined my dream of raising my kid in brazil. Ohh. I dont have one dollar" etc.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"I'm not ok with where this conversation is headed"


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Damn... that's the kind of German I am.

Thought you guys had all given it up over there.

I never realized the purpose of Germany was to make sure that petulant Greeks got to retire @51 after having "worked" less than 10 years.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

seagoat said:


> Looks like MM321 either made up with her, or she abducted him with the kid's passport for ransom, or he's bankrupt, she took all his money, then off to Brazil + kid.
> 
> MM, do you have any updates, do you still read here?


Well, as of the past couple weeks she has been better with intermittent outbursts. She has given up on moving to Brazil, and says she wants to work it out with me.

I do agree that this is not what I thought marriage would be. I pictured 2 people working together, planning, saving, discussing with minimal drama. 

For the past week or so we have been a couple like we were in the past.. She cooks, says she loves me on the phone all the time, go places together etc, is looking for a job, with one exception. When we get home she wants to sleep on the living room floor, and claims she is not ready to be intimate yet, and feels we are not ready to sleep in the same bed yet. So there has been no sex. So, I am not sure what that really means, or what to do about that. She hugs and kisses me more and more before bedtime, but no sex. 

What keeps me around, is yes, feelings for her, but more importantly I cannot imagine having my son grow up in a broken home. Where I see him on only weekends, or share custody etc. 

I have never been religious, or been to church in my life.. I was desperate and reached out to what I thought was counseling on the internet. I went to a guys house and he was talking about relationships, love, marriage and jesus. After telling her what he said that seemed to be the turning point for her. Like a light bulb went off in her head. She is a believer/spiritual and he said that some bad spirits entered her and she needs to pray. Since then she has changed dramatically.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

seagoat said:


> I worked my way through this thread, and MM, you should write a book.  BTW, I'm German, too.
> 
> No offense, but I think you're married to a petulant child. Do you really foresee long-term stability and happiness for this family? What about being role models for your mini-MM? I know you're concerned about his well-being, and hold yourself back in his presence, but since you're at work all day, how much positive influence does his mom have on him? With her ever-shifting moods, impulsiveness, unpredictability, anger, depression, and combativeness, how does she perform as a mom? I'm not big on divorce, but the best you could do for the lil' fella is divorce and get sole custody on the basis of her lack of stability and maturity, and concern of her taking him down South again, into an environment of chaos and unsafety.
> 
> ...


I agree with much of what you say. My question is this. Do people still have marriages similar to our parents and grandparents? In which the female can be beautiful but still selfless? Selfless as in not overbearing/selfish.

We have hung out with many couples and most recently another this weekend. The female complains about raising kids, complains about everything, and the man just does everything to placate her or just lives with it. Then I know guys in sexless marriages. Friends who divorce, etc. Has what a marriage is changed and are men unrealistic if they want what their parents and grandparents had?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

MM321,

Don't angle for the victim chair.

It will do you no good.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

marriedman321 said:


> I agree with much of what you say. My question is this. Do people still have marriages similar to our parents and grandparents? In which the female can be beautiful but still selfless? Selfless as in not overbearing/selfish.
> 
> We have hung out with many couples and most recently another this weekend. The female complains about raising kids, complains about everything, and the man just does everything to placate her or just lives with it. Then I know guys in sexless marriages. Friends who divorce, etc. Has what a marriage is changed and are men unrealistic if they want what their parents and grandparents had?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The world has changed, gender roles have changed. So I reckon marriage has to change. But I don't reckon it has to be bad.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> I agree with much of what you say. My question is this. Do people still have marriages similar to our parents and grandparents? In which the female can be beautiful but still selfless? Selfless as in not overbearing/selfish.


I think they do, but maybe you should have found yourself a good German girl to marry.  JK.




marriedman321 said:


> We have hung out with many couples and most recently another this weekend. The female complains about raising kids, complains about everything, and the man just does everything to placate her or just lives with it.


I really like that you two are getting out more. Just a recommendation, but I wouldn't hang out with that couple any more if you can avoid it. Your W doesn't need any more ammo and it doesn't sound like you have much in common with that man...any more. Right?


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

seagoat said:


> I
> MM, so you want it all, a beautiful woman who submits herself to you. Looking for perfection, eh?


Hmmm..

This is my point.. What I seem to notice is the "grass is always greener" mentality, and it applies to my relationship as well.

So I meet a single woman who would LOVE to have a family, and can only dream about being a stay at home mom. I provided that. How? By hard work, sacrifice, risking a lot, being selfless with my earnings, and being 100% responsible.

Then, the woman "loses herself" or "cannot find her identity" as all she does is raise a child.. So, I do not want her to be overly submissive, but just realize this is what she wanted, and is far better than how it was before. She can work, take up a hobby, start a business. She can do whatever she wants. I am not bossing her around, or desiring her to submit to my every whim. 

As you pointed out about how some men leave some women, I could see my wife leaving me if I did not uphold my end of the bargain, cheated, did drugs, became an alcoholic, was abusive, a bad dad etc. But I am none of the above. And I find myself fighting for this relationship, while guys who do half of what I do have women fighting to stay with them. 

But I think Conrad is right.. I cannot see myself as the victim, as it does not feel good inside to have this mentality, or do any good for me.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

marriedman321 said:


> Hmmm..
> 
> This is my point.. What I seem to notice is the "grass is always greener" mentality, and it applies to my relationship as well.
> 
> ...


Stop thinking like a man.

Emotional communication is what you need to master.


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## hard2function (Jan 17, 2013)

Conrad,

I follow your advice to others on the regular and have learned

an amazing amount of things from your insight these last few

months. First, I would like to sincerely thank you for helping 

all of us that are in need of your guidence. Second... How 

does one approach learning emotional communication? I

personally can't quite seem to grasp the concept. Thank you

in advance if in fact you would be so kind as to give some

examples. 


H2f
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

hard2function said:


> Conrad,
> 
> I follow your advice to others on the regular and have learned
> 
> ...


Hard,

Head on over to the "transaction" thread and we'll kick it around.


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## hard2function (Jan 17, 2013)

Thank you Conrad, I will jump on that thread later this evening. 

marriedman331 - Didn't mean to hijack. I've been following your 

story and am rooting for you. 

H2f
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

Ok, so good news, my wife got a job as a pre school teacher, and my son will attend the school for free. She is very happy at this time.

My question is this. How do men deal with the things women say, when some things are hurtful? Let me give an example.

So she texted me after getting the job, and said now she will have money to spoil me, our son, money to buy her own things etc. That was nice to hear.

She was thinking of lots of things she likes to buy in her excitement as well. Trips, vacations etc. But then she says this in the same sentence, not sure if she was really even thinking.. "And I would love to spend my bday in brazil with my family"

So this bothered me on a few levels..

A. Once again, will split us up.
B. Wanting to spend a day like that without me? Obviously hurts my feelings a bit.
C. The child issue.. Will it be another fight for him to stay or go?
D. Once again, fixated on going back home already, and I do not want to hear this daily.

So how is this handled? In the past I would tell her my objections, tell her she is being selfish, explain this is now our family, etc etc. I would twist it and say something like "How would you feel if my bday plan was to leave you alone and head back home" etc. These things always led to a fight. This time I just ignored it completely, but it bothered me when I was at work the next day.


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## catcalls (Oct 31, 2012)

its good that things are turning around. I feel that you have very low expectations of your wife and she in turn manages to not even meet them

perhaps you need to act as though you are a high value partner (which you are ) and you want a high value partner to complement you and not a child

tell her you are happy that she has got a job and compliment her for taking that initiative.

tell her that she should put her salary in a joint account and you can sit together and set up a new budget, which will allow her to fully contribute to the running of the household. therefore you will jointly decide how much to allocate to savings, leisure, vacation etc

If she flounces away and gets angry tell her you are not her father but her husband and you have supported her. now she needs to pull her weight.

she needs consequences for poor behaviour not just you constantly trying to placate her and hope she improves


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Choose your battles.

When is her birthday?


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I like catcalls ideas regarding the money. 

You did right by ignoring her Brazil fantasies if she was simply nonchalantly spouting her thoughts. Conrad is right, choose your battles. When she brings this up as something she is seriously considering, and you know she will, you simply say you are not OK with it. No explanations. No discussion. No escalation into a big argument. If she wants to create drama you walk away.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

I wouldn't say anything (choose your battles)

Just do NOT let her take your son to brazil alone again,

No matter what she says or how happy she seems with you.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Do you still have control over your son's passport?


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

No problem with her visiting Brazil for her birthday, just make sure you have control on your son's passport and you will see her when she gets back. You take care of the baby while she is gone, so she can enjoy herself.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

seagoat said:


> Just throwing this out...if she has her own bank account, and all her income will go there, how can you be sure she will not set this money aside to plot her return to Brazil, with kid, for good? I agree with the poster who suggested to make your marital finances more transparent.


I still have my son's passport. She will not be earning that much as it is more of a part time position, and she really is not the type of long term planner. She would need a lot of money for such a move, and a huge income to live in the part of Brazil she desires. She is not the type to fake emotions or feelings, and I do not think this is her plan. She also knows I would be 100% against this, and she is the type that would be afraid of the legal ramifications.

The next trip, if she chooses to go, will have to be by herself. More or less what bothered me was wondering why she would even bring this up at this time, knowing how I feel. Perhaps she just was not thinking.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Alternate perspective. Is Brazil still a danger if you go along too? You could always hold the son's passport.

Denying your son contact with his maternal family is not ideal. I hope you can find a better path. 

I get you don't like them. My in-laws are hard work too


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Alternate perspective. Is Brazil still a danger if you go along too? You could always hold the son's passport.
> 
> Denying your son contact with his maternal family is not ideal. I hope you can find a better path.
> 
> I get you don't like them. My in-laws are hard work too


I thought about this and my concern with MM going down there with the whole family is that if W decides she wants to stay and cause trouble for MM then she could potentially do something with the local police or govt authorities that might prevent MM from returning with his son. Kinda holding him hostage as it were. That would be infinitely worse. 

I think it's better to buy a ticket for MIL to fly up here...and much cheaper too. 1 airline ticket v. 3 airline tickets. If I remember correctly, MIL doesn't work, so she could stay as long as she likes or as long as MM and his W will put up with her.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Losing my children vs living with MIL......I would need to give that some serious thought!!!!!! 

But seriously, she is an adult, she does have an attachment to her home country. That is reasonable. I just don't see never going home as a sustainable approach.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> Losing my children vs living with MIL......I would need to give that some serious thought!!!!!!
> 
> But seriously, she is an adult, she does have an attachment to her home country. That is reasonable. I just don't see never going home as a sustainable approach.


Wazza, I have some friends from Brazil in fact that did not go home for about 5 years or so because of immigration issues. They would not be allowed to return to the US if they left. So they didn't. It isn't impossible and as MM said, she can always go alone.

As far as living with a MIL...my mom would drive my W bat$hit crazy...and in turn W would make my life a living hell, so I hear you brother.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Tron said:


> Wazza, I have some friends from Brazil in fact that did not go home for about 5 years or so because of immigration issues. They would not be allowed to return to the US if they left. So they didn't. It isn't impossible and as MM said, she can always go alone.
> 
> As far as living with a MIL...my mom would drive my W bat$hit crazy...and in turn W would make my life a living hell, so I hear you brother.


It's certainly possible not to go home for years, and not unreasonable for MM to be worried about it.

Doesn't mean the wife will be happy or see it as reasonable, and doesn't mean that drawing this line will help the marriage.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Wazza said:


> It's certainly possible not to go home for years, and not unreasonable for MM to be worried about it.
> 
> Doesn't mean the wife will be happy or see it as reasonable, and doesn't mean that drawing this line will help the marriage.


She can go anytime on her own - if she pays her freight - no restrictions.

She can go with her son when they save enough money to go together - regardless of timing.

Perfectly healthy boundary.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Conrad said:


> She can go anytime on her own - if she pays her freight - no restrictions.
> 
> She can go with her son when they save enough money to go together - regardless of timing.
> 
> Perfectly healthy boundary.


I thought Tron was saying the son should not be allowed to go? 

The other can of worms is, what stops her saving? If she can bank $100 per week she could be on a plane within a year. Sure MM can pass expenses on to her and limit her ability to save. And she should have a share of the expenses but it has to be fair, or be seen to be, to be sustainable.

The current approach really looks like a holding action to me. Dunno what the right answer is.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Wazza said:


> I thought Tron was saying the son should not be allowed to go?
> 
> The other can of worms is, what stops her saving? If she can bank $100 per week she could be on a plane within a year. Sure MM can pass expenses on to her and limit her ability to save. And she should have a share of the expenses but it has to be fair, or be seen to be, to be sustainable.
> 
> The current approach really looks like a holding action to me. Dunno what the right answer is.


My bad.

"when they save enough money to go as a family"

My wording was unclear.

Mea culpa.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I thought Tron was saying the son should not be allowed to go?


That is my opinion, at least for the foreseeable future.



Wazza said:


> The other can of worms is, what stops her saving? If she can bank $100 per week she could be on a plane within a year. Sure MM can pass expenses on to her and limit her ability to save. And she should have a share of the expenses but it has to be fair, or be seen to be, to be sustainable.


I don't disagree with this and am convinced she is going to be saving her money (however much she saves a week/month) for precisely that purpose. Based upon her past behavior, I am also convinced she is going to have a completely different idea of what is fair than MM. She has been pampered her whole life and I venture that anything pulled from her money for mutual expenses is going to seem "unfair" to her. 

This discussion/negotiation is going to be something to witness. Contentious no matter how you slice it, Wazza.



Wazza said:


> The current approach really looks like a holding action to me. Dunno what the right answer is.


Yup. MM is going to have some time to fill up that Love Bank before this comes to a head. And, it will come to a head.

Conrad's boundary would seem on the surface to be a reasonable compromise position to take. Maybe I am worrying too much that the plan for all of them to return together to the US could get derailed too easily. That may be a good question to pose the US consulate on how the governments would handle such a situation. Better to be prepared for the worst.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Tron,

You must risk "something"

Or else, it's a dictatorship.

Protect yourself as best you can.


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## marriedman321 (Mar 7, 2013)

It seems we will never have peace..

As my wife is more religious/spiritual, I guess what she did was give up things she likes for 3 weeks, and her request from god was to have things back the way they were before with us.. So she had no coffee, diet coke, dessert, and that is why she was sleeping on the floor.

So now, things are back to normal. She put her ring back on, is sleeping in bed with me again, really likes her job, and we are together again as we were in the past. She has really changed a lot, her smile and laugh is back, etc.

Now, she talked to an aunt, and it turns out her mom is going to need a pacemaker, or some sort of heart surgery. So for first it was her grandma, then her brother, then her dad, now her mom..

My wife does not fully know how much of this is real, but again yesterday she cried, envisioning her mom dying or being very sick. I hope my wife does not slip back into this depression again.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

marriedman321 said:


> It seems we will never have peace..
> 
> As my wife is more religious/spiritual, I guess what she did was give up things she likes for 3 weeks, and her request from god was to have things back the way they were before with us.. So she had no coffee, diet coke, dessert, and that is why she was sleeping on the floor.
> 
> ...


Pacemaker is a good thing if she has heart issues. My W's granny has had one for over 10 years. They aren't a big deal. Be supportive. If it's just a pacemaker that shouldn't be something to worry about.


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