# Who wants a degree in masculinities studies?



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Coming to a college near you: the same issues that get hashed out here day after day.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/09/f...on=top-stories-below&WT.nav=top-stories-below


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

Another useless degree from academia.

People wonder why the Chinese are kicking our asses.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

... Wtf?!!!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I think it's brilliant! 



> But a full-fledged program for the study of masculinity, Dr. Kimmel said, would incorporate scholarship across disciplines — from social work to literature to health. It would ask questions like: What makes men men, and how are we teaching boys to fill those roles? It would look at the effects of race and sexuality on masculine identity and the influence of the media and pop culture. It would also allow scholars to take seemingly unrelated phenomena — male suicide and the fact that men are less likely to talk about their feelings, say, or the financial collapse and the male tendency for risk-taking — and try to connect the dots.


I hope this discipline catches like wild fire across all the liberal arts campuses. We have two generations of men confused about what being a man means, leading men to become angry when they've guessed wrong. We NEED to have a body of research to ask, study and learn how masculinity has changed and what that change means for our sons.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Maybe not useful outside of counseling for employment but interesting.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## T&T (Nov 16, 2012)

I think it's interesting as well. Why not? It can't hurt...


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## NoIinThreesome (Nov 6, 2007)

They already offer degrees in masculinities: the degrees are called History and Physics and Mathematics and Architecture and Engineering and Biology and Economics and Medicine and English Literature and Art and....

:grin2:


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

NoIinThreesome said:


> They already offer degrees in masculinities: the degrees are called History and Physics and Mathematics and Architecture and Engineering and *Biology *and Economics and Medicine and English Literature and Art and....
> 
> 
> 
> :grin2:



I don't know about that nowadays. Last spring semester and just this last short summer session, I was the only male in the classroom. Granted, these are courses for pre-nursing and pre-med majors but this is the new norm in all majors.


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## NoIinThreesome (Nov 6, 2007)

Ikaika said:


> I don't know about that nowadays. Last spring semester and just this last short summer session, I was the only male in the classroom. Granted, these are courses for pre-nursing and pre-med majors but this is the new norm in all majors.


I was referring to the disciplines themselves as well as the major discoveries within those disciplines, not who takes the classes.

That being said, it was meant to be a funny/snarky, yet poignant reply.


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

NoIinThreesome said:


> I was referring to the disciplines themselves as well as the major discoveries within those disciplines, not who takes the classes.
> 
> That being said, it was meant to be a funny/snarky, yet poignant reply.



I won't argue, historically most science degrees have been male dominated, I'm simply suggesting these times they are a changing. The demographics in this area are a slow moving train we see passing by but can do little to stop, nor should we try to stop it. It is what it is. 

As for Watson and Crick's discovery of the 3D look of DNA, the real credit goes to Rosalind Franklin.

http://undsci.berkeley.edu/lessons/pdfs/dna_simple.pdf


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Cletus said:


> Coming to a college near you: the same issues that get hashed out here day after day.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/09/f...on=top-stories-below&WT.nav=top-stories-below


"Men are bad." Congratulations to me! I passed. Now, give me my worthless degree.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> I think it's brilliant!
> 
> 
> 
> I hope this discipline catches like wild fire across all the liberal arts campuses. We have two generations of men confused about what being a man means, leading men to become angry when they've guessed wrong. We NEED to have a body of research to ask, study and learn how masculinity has changed and what that change means for our sons.


A good church can and should service this purpose, but for the non-church-goers, I suppose college is as good a place as any to learn it!


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Do you think guys will be allowed to take the courses or is it just offered to women?


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

I can see the curriculum now...

101 Laundry Basics
102 Dryer Basics
103 How to use a vacuum

211 Meal planning with Excel
212 Macroeconomics of couponing

321 Diaper changing
322 Breastfeeding with Mr. Milker
323 Stroller management at the supermarket

430 Advanced Topics in Laundry
431 Practicum in Linen folding
432 How to Iron


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

A father, a brother, an exH, a H and a son... I have multiple degrees in masculine studies already, thanks.


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

Constable Odo said:


> I can see the curriculum now...
> 
> 101 Laundry Basics
> 102 Dryer Basics
> ...


LOL! You left out "productive argumentation for menopause" and "comparative studies of feminine hygiene products"...


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

I took Home Economics back in HS (late 70s), but only because the cute girls took that class.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Didn't this course used to be taught by fathers?


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> Didn't this course used to be taught by fathers?



My home econ teacher was miss "foxy", not so father like at all. 

I spent my K - 8 grade years in a parochial school with nuns in habits, wearing what looked like a prison uniform and the girls attire no better. This was awesome. I took full advantage of the freedoms of a public school education.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

LOL

No i meant the masculine studies course, not home economics. Jesus, if my dad had taught me home ec stuff I'd still be microwaving scrambled eggs.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Ikaika said:


> Last spring semester and just this last short summer session,* I was the only male in the classroom.*





Ikaika said:


> I took Home Economics back in HS (late 70s), *but only because the cute girls took that class.*


... :|


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I'm not a big fan of the Navel Gazing experience overall. If you have to take a class to understand your place in the universe, you're over-thinking it. Men's studies, Women's studies, Black studies - I might have taken one as an undergrad to fill a credit, but getting a master's degree in Being a Man? Get a job, perhaps raise a family if that is you wont, be a good husband, limit your evil, collect your sheepskin.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

But! But? But ... what if women take the course and become more masculine than men? Will they then hate feminists? The implications are staggering.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> I'm not a big fan of the Navel Gazing experience overall. If you have to take a class to understand your place in the universe, you're over-thinking it. Men's studies, Women's studies, Black studies - I might have taken one as an undergrad to fill a credit, but getting a master's degree in Being a Man? Get a job, perhaps raise a family if that is you wont, be a good husband, limit your evil, collect your sheepskin.


I think this MIGHT be true for western white men. I am not sure since I have not lived it. But women's studies and black studies make a great deal of sense, though I think it is the haters that need the studies more than the people who lived the history.

The race debate in this country is full on moronic. We have gone to a dangerous place where people think that racism does not even EXIST despite all evidence to the contrary. That it makes sense to blame, fear and judge individual black people because of the crime rates without recognition of either the history that got them there or the socioeconomic factors that put them there. To think that racism does not exist thereby denying the very real subconscious bias that all of us carry with us every day.

Anyone who believes that learning about the history and culture of minority groups should read Manchild in the Promised Land. It claims to be a success story of overcoming which is incredibly depressing. But I can promise that if I was raised in that culture of despair, I would have turned out no better. 

We have a culture of hate, blame and finger pointing. People like to put themselves up by putting others down. And black people are So Easy, so long as we completely bury our heads in the sands about their history and how that history is playing out in culture today.

Says someone who took black studies courses in school.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Says someone who took black studies courses in school.


Now this I like. Perhaps a good college graduation requirement would be to take a "studies" class from a group to which you do NOT belong - men in women's studies, whites in black studies, etc.

Although to be fair I found the very experience of getting a degree among Asians, women, minorities, and yes, a lot of white dudes to be a reasonably eye-opening experience in itself, with no formal classwork required. Nothing changes your perspective like exposure.


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> The race debate in this country is full on moronic. We have gone to a dangerous place where people think that racism does not even EXIST despite all evidence to the contrary.


It might be helpful, then, if every time there is any sort of mixed-race violence/confrontation/event/etc., the race pimps didn't immediately show up and start crying "RACISM" like chicken little.

I do not know many people who believe racism does not exist. I know many people, though, who believe racism does not exist for the vast majority of cases where race arsonists like Al Sharpton use circumstances to enrich themselves at the expense of others.

Also, if white-on-black racism exists, then people must also be willing to accept that black-on-white racism exists as well, something many folks aren't willing to do.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Constable Odo said:


> It might be helpful, then, if every time there is any sort of mixed-race violence/confrontation/event/etc., the race pimps didn't immediately show up and start crying "RACISM" like chicken little.
> 
> I do not know many people who believe racism does not exist. I know many people, though, who believe racism does not exist for the vast majority of cases where race arsonists like Al Sharpton use circumstances to enrich themselves at the expense of others.
> 
> Also, if white-on-black racism exists, then people must also be willing to accept that black-on-white racism exists as well, something many folks aren't willing to do.


While Al Sharpton ranks right up there with Bill O'Reilly in terms of "insightful take on news events", I don't think you can back up your claim that black on white racism exists. I've never heard of a white couple being denied rental leases, bank loans, jobs, promotions or raises at the hand of a black person, have you? I've never heard of a white guy getting pulled over, thrown against the car, and frisked by a racists black cop, have you? I've never heard of a white person being denied ANY service or good by a black person because they are not black. 

So back it Odious.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Constable Odo said:


> I can see the curriculum now...
> 
> 101 Laundry Basics
> 102 Dryer Basics
> ...


That looks like the curriculum for the "Home Economics" degree that most women were pushed into prior to 1970.

Well, except for "Breastfeeding with Mr. Milker"... Mrs. Milker would have been correct.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> While Al Sharpton ranks right up there with Bill O'Reilly in terms of "insightful take on news events", I don't think you can back up your claim that black on white racism exists. I've never heard of a white couple being denied rental leases, bank loans, jobs, promotions or raises at the hand of a black person, have you? I've never heard of a white guy getting pulled over, thrown against the car, and frisked by a racists black cop, have you? I've never heard of a white person being denied ANY service or good by a black person because they are not black.


Have you ever heard of a white person being beaten/attacked solely because they are white?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> While Al Sharpton ranks right up there with Bill O'Reilly in terms of "insightful take on news events", I don't think you can back up your claim that black on white racism exists. I've never heard of a white couple being denied rental leases, bank loans, *jobs, promotions or raises at the hand of a black person, have you? I've never heard of a white guy getting pulled over, thrown against the car, and frisked by a racists black cop, have you? I've never heard of a white person being denied ANY service or good by a black person because they are not black. *
> 
> So back it Odious.


Yes to all the above highlighted. Are you seriously stating you haven't? Or is this some form of sarcasm I missed:surprise:



EleGirl said:


> Have you ever heard of a white person being beaten/attacked solely because they are white?


I know right like that never happens lol


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Yes to all the above highlighted. Are you seriously stating you haven't? Or is this some form of sarcasm I missed:surprise:
> 
> 
> 
> I know right like that never happens lol


Nope, no sarcasm. Please provide links to reputable new source.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Me. I have been the victim of both sexism and racism as a white male. 


You can't be this naive. Seriously

I find hard to believe that anyone in the United States has never ever been the victim of racism or sexism. It isn't right in any form

http://www.salon.com/2013/12/02/thr...t_professor_over_lesson_on_structural_racism/

http://www.doi.gov/pmb/eeo/cases/reverse.cfm

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/jury-fulton-discriminated-againt-white-male-job-ap/nRPnf/


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

Ikaika said:


> I took Home Economics back in HS (late 70s), but only because the cute girls took that class.


I took Home Economics in the 70s too. But to help out a jock who wanted to be a baker. 

Being around the cute girls could have been a bonus, until I forgot to put yeast in the bread.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

Cletus said:


> Now this I like. Perhaps a good college graduation requirement would be to take a "studies" class from a group to which you do NOT belong - men in women's studies, whites in black studies, etc.
> 
> Although to be fair I found the very experience of getting a degree among Asians, women, minorities, and yes, a lot of white dudes to be a reasonably eye-opening experience in itself, with no formal classwork required. Nothing changes your perspective like exposure.


Agreed. I picked my university partly because it took many overseas scholarship students so had a wider mix of students. That was part of my education.

How many males take feminist studies now?


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

And to answer the thread title; No. I can't muster the enthusiam for a degree. A few hours of TED talks maybe though.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Wolf1974 said:


> Me. I have been the victim of both sexism and racism as a white male.


Heh, well you folk are easy targets to point at, not to mention all the racism/racialism I encountered throughout my life has been 95% from Anglo-Saxons or Euros assimilated into the Anglosphere. 3% from the native Aboriginal population and 2% from other minorities. At least in my country.

Hence personally even I admit I've come to EXPECT it among the majority. To allow this expectation to cloud my ability to judge human beings on an individual basis is something I do not allow however, nor do I encourage it in others, as I don't believe it's genetic, it's all to do with culture. It's everywhere from the media down to racialist mentalities. I also don't like the color categories, especially when many members of my extended family look "white" when they are not.

In the end by treating people as individuals it allows people who have put up with racism all their lives to prevent being racist to others. However for that, people have to be more culturally independent and less of a bandwagon/sheep mentality. 

I have a disproportionate social circle that some have even accused me of racism, despite having several Anglo-Saxon friends who I see as HUMAN rather than their race. However, I do believe Anglos have to get over the racialism in their culture though, I won't treat people as human until they prove their humanity to me.

So it goes both ways mate.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Constable Odo said:


> I can see the curriculum now...
> 
> 101 Laundry Basics
> 102 Dryer Basics
> ...


*My good Constable: Who presented you with a copy of the course catalogue?

That's rather brilliant!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Can just see it now, a student comes out going "I'm a REAL man! I got a high distinction in diaper changing and breast feeding!!!"


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## Constable Odo (Feb 14, 2015)

Wolf1974 said:


> You can't be this naive. Seriously


Don't take the bait, Brother Wolf, don't take the bait.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Heh, well you folk are easy targets to point at, not to mention all the racism/racialism I encountered throughout my life has been 95% from Anglo-Saxons or Euros assimilated into the Anglosphere. 3% from the native Aboriginal population and 2% from other minorities. At least in my country.
> 
> *Hence personally even I admit I've come to EXPECT it among the majority.* To allow this expectation to cloud my ability to judge human beings on an individual basis is something I do not allow however, nor do I encourage it in others, as I don't believe it's genetic, it's all to do with culture. It's everywhere from the media down to racialist mentalities. I also don't like the color categories, especially when many members of my extended family look "white" when they are not.
> 
> ...


And that's the problem and also racist. To expect all whites this or that is the same as saying you expect all blacks this or that. Both are wrong and while racism and sexism exist not everyone partakes in it. Until we ALL see people for people and not judge them or put them down for the color of their skin, the sex organs they have, or the uniform they wear it will continue. On BOTH side their is money and political power in keeping racism alive and so I doubt that will change anytime soon. I have no idea what racism looks like in your country but here affects everyone. And when it doesn't affect you directly you have the fear of it.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Sorry for the thread Jack about racism. Just saw that comment and made my head spin/heart sink. I am all for combating racism and sexism but when someone says it doesn't exist in one form or another, well even for TAM, that's just beyond insulting and silly. I am too involved probably because of the nonsense Both my families have had to tolerate in the last few years and because I have a very blended home family of white, Hispanic and Asian, and a professional family of every race.

So I'll bow out of this one.

In so far as men's studies I think it's a great idea for a class to take, just going to be useless as a degree but then many degrees are just that these days anyway lol


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Wolf1974 said:


> And that's the problem and also racist. To expect all whites this or that is the same as saying you expect all blacks this or that. Both are wrong and while racism and sexism exist not everyone partakes in it. Until we ALL see people for people and not judge them or put them down for the color of their skin, the sex organs they have, or the uniform they wear it will continue. On BOTH side their is money and political power in keeping racism alive and so I doubt that will change anytime soon. I have no idea what racism looks like in your country but here affects everyone. And when it doesn't affect you directly you have the fear of it.


Part of the problem I have with the term racism is it gets thrown around way too easily just because someone has a different view point/opinion. For me I view racism as not just having a certain view about people (stereotypes) but taking it to the next level where you use it as a tool of hate (whether mental or physical) to put a person/people down.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

I guess it's about as useful as a gender studies degree.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Part of the problem I have with the term racism is it gets thrown around way too easily just because someone has a different view point/opinion. For me I view racism as not just having a certain view about people (stereotypes) but taking it to the next level where you use it as a tool of hate (whether mental or physical) to put a person/people down.


I disagree with this rather vigorously. What we do with subconscious bias is not just either. A person who would not call themselves a "racist" because they never lynched anyone can still be influenced by race when say hiring. In some ways, it is even more insidious when you can pretend it does not exist except where people are getting lynched.

This unconscious bias effects all kinds of opinions and attitudes. While everyone has a right to their opinions, it does not make every opinion correct. The police very clearly have conscious or unconscious bias when dealing with black individuals. You see people opining that black people should not have civil rights because of the high crime rate in black communities. Their arrest sheets are held up to scrutiny. Not their convictions record. Not their innocent until proven guilty record. Their arrest record.

We think we can heap abused for decades, long after the civil rights movement was over with the institutional socioeconomic discrimination and then just say, yah get the heck over it. 

Pretty sad. And more than a little sickening.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I disagree with this rather vigorously. What we do with subconscious bias is not just either. A person who would not call themselves a "racist" because they never lynched anyone can still be influenced by race when say hiring. In some ways, it is even more insidious when you can pretend it does not exist except where people are getting lynched.
> 
> *This unconscious bias effects all kinds of opinions and attitudes. While everyone has a right to their opinions, it does not make every opinion correct. The police very clearly have conscious or unconscious bias when dealing with black individuals. You see people opining that black people should not have civil rights because of the high crime rate in black communities. Their arrest sheets are held up to scrutiny. Not their convictions record. Not their innocent until proven guilty record. Their arrest record.*
> 
> ...


You completely miss my point. In the bolded you are providing examples where the biases were used precisely in a negative way towards people. I am sorry but that is not always the case, just b/c you have a bias/pre conceived idea of someone does not mean you will act in a way that is detrimental to them


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> > Originally Posted by NobodySpecial View Post
> > I disagree with this rather vigorously. What we do with subconscious bias is not just either. A person who would not call themselves a "racist" because they never lynched anyone can still be influenced by race when say hiring. In some ways, it is even more insidious when you can pretend it does not exist except where people are getting lynched.
> >
> > This unconscious bias effects all kinds of opinions and attitudes. While everyone has a right to their opinions, it does not make every opinion correct. The police very clearly have conscious or unconscious bias when dealing with black individuals. You see people opining that black people should not have civil rights because of the high crime rate in black communities. Their arrest sheets are held up to scrutiny. Not their convictions record. Not their innocent until proven guilty record. Their arrest record.
> ...


You missed my point. You cannot "use" unconscious bias in one way or another. It uses you.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> You missed my point. You cannot "use" unconscious bias in one way or another. It uses you.


Not really. Everyone has bias/pre conceived ideas. That does not automatically mean they will use those in a hateful or detrimental way (conscious or unconscious).


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Not really. Everyone has bias/pre conceived ideas. That does not automatically mean they will use those in a hateful or detrimental way (conscious or unconscious).


So you have the ability to control your behavior based on bias that you don't know you have? Neat trick.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> So you have the ability to control your behavior based on bias that you don't know you have? Neat trick.


Surprisingly I don't use my biases as a form of hatred towards people. I am sorry you haven't mastered this trick ....


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Me. I have been the victim of both sexism and racism as a white male.
> 
> 
> You can't be this naive. Seriously
> ...



LOL, have you even read these links? Affirmative action cases do not meet the criteria of reverse racism that I asked about. White targeted by black based on not being black. All of these cases involve white charging other white....


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Race 'relations' back in South Africa aren't materially better or worse since 1994. Not across the broad spectrum of Afrikaners. The economic and social lives of most blacks isn't materially better or worse since 1994 either. In some ways worse in some ways better but fairly stable across the whole. Politically it's a new world, blacks have enormous political clout now, obviously but this hasn't translated into 'yesterday it was terrible today's it's great'. After 21 years the jury's still out. So if in a place that experiences a sea change the hoped-for racial relations revolution or whatever you want to call it takes a long time it's certainly going to take a great deal of time here. And apartheid was the law of the land from 1948 to 1994. Prior to 1948 there were various colonial and post colonial laws which reflected the laws and mores of the times and were very similar to the laws imposed by every western nation and the US, Mexico, Canada, Argentina, Brazil regarding native or indigenous populations. In After 1948 the government slowly ratcheted up restrictions until 1970 where blacks were no longer citizens of SA but instead members of native indigenous tribal nations. Similar to the US Native American Reservation system maintained today. It also reflects the same approach used in Canada and Australia regarding First Peoples, Aborigines etc. While not admirable the policies of SA were fairly unremarkable in that sense. 

In Mexico today, it's a reasonable assertion to say that Mexico is a predominately racist society. White skinned ethno Europeans and ethno middle easterners form the core of political, social and economic elite. Many of the illegal aliens who flock to the US don't speak Spanish but come from the Oaxaca region where the language is largely native and the people are not fair skinned or European. 

In Uruguay the population is >95% white ethnic European. The native population was ethnically cleansed centuries ago. 

Argentina has been ruled by a white European Catholic ethnically German and Spanish elite for 2 centuries. The indigenous population is and always has been at the bottom of society. Racism against blacks is baked into their language. 

Point being all these societies to varying degrees struggle with the same issues as does the US and they haven't found an instant fix. It's unlikely with something this agendized, this politicized that Americans will find a shortcut.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Wolf1974 said:


> And that's the problem and also racist. To expect all whites this or that is the same as saying you expect all blacks this or that.


All is such a strong word, a word racists use. Have I used it? I claimed the majority yes and it's based on observation from several states and environments in my country AS WELL as observations from other countries. I still keep an open-mind as a rule. Furthermore I don't even blame the color of one's skin, no, I blame the cultural influences which most people are even not responsible for.



> Until we ALL see people for people and not judge them or put them down for the color of their skin, the sex organs they have, or the uniform they wear it will continue.


Which is pretty much what I said, judge people on an individual basis. However you missed my second point - Acknowledge that it's cultural and throw it out. I do the same with my culture, there's sh-t I don't like too and have disagreements with.

Regardless I was not accusing you for anything at all, but offering you a perspective of why it can continue to be a challenge to associate positively with your people. You may be fine, but from my experience, a sh-t ton ain't.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Constable Odo said:


> Another useless degree from academia.
> 
> People wonder why the Chinese are kicking our asses.



I have three useless degrees and I'm kicking some serious tail


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## sapientia (Nov 24, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I disagree with this rather vigorously. What we do with subconscious bias is not just either. .


Ellis is correct. People are entitled to their private thoughts and can only be held responsible for their actions.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

john117 said:


> I have three useless degrees and I'm kicking some serious tail


Ok, but the problem is that the thing you should be doing with tail is probably not kicking it.


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