# What to do after you "stayed for the kids" and things aren't as bad, but still not good . . .



## midatlanticdad

Background:

Wife and i were married 20 years ago, and have two wonderful children, who are teens. She is very attractive and we were deeply in love. We were in our early 20s when married, and she loved the idea of starting a family. It became clear early on, i would take up the fight to provide for our family, and she would primarily raise the kids, and keep the household, with a plan of working when/where she could to supplement.

I am not afraid of working, and wanted very much to provide for my family. I worked full time, went to school at nite to finish up a bachelors degree, and dove headfirst into a rental property. Fast forward to year 12 of marriage, and i was stressed out, not home much, but on a very lucrative career path. 

Our daily lives were so different, we didn't appreciate the others struggles. She wanted me to listen and understand her struggles, and being under a lot of stress to produce at work, i wasn't very sympathetic or understanding (even though i tried to be). Resentment grew on both sides, and she was quite nasty to me. I tried to make it up with promises of things getting easier and bigger house, nice car etc. 

in the winter of 2012, i stumbled upon her FB account and found that she had reached out to an old boyfriend, the one that got away and broke her heart by cheating on her. Very handsome guy, and single. I was able to guess her password, and monitored their communications for weeks, all the while dying inside and wondering what i did to deserve this. I also found text messages between her and her cousin (very close like sisters) absolutely shredding me, that i was gross, and annoying.

i was a mess already - struggling at work bc of the demands placed on me, unable to sleep through the nite, finding myself medicating with alcohol inappropriately etc. I wanted help from my wife, and support/understanding - instead she turned elsewhere.

The messages went from playful banter, to flirting, to graphic sexual conversations, to arranging a meeting. I was determined to let the meeting happen and then confront her, and end the marriage. I was heartbroken, but desperate to find the right way out of it. They hadn't arranged an actual meeting place, and i couldn't wait any longer. In the middle of the night, i woke her (sleeping soundly as i laid quietly next to her in agonizing pain) and revealed i knew what she was up to. 

At first, her reaction was quiet, i think she was trying to figure out what to say. Early on, her she seemed to think it was wrong, but no big deal. Over the following weeks i agonized with what to do. I ultimately determined that even though i had been betrayed, i couldn't yet give up on our relationship mostly for the kids sake, if we could reconcile. Without going into all the details, over the last 8 years, we went through many lows (including behavior on my part - developed a real drinking problem, which i'm past but did cause some problems, being absent, having a hard time being close) to a place now where i've forgiven her, our household is in good order, we parent well together get along fine, and i believe she truly regrets her actions. Over the years, there were periods where i had completely moved past it, but deep down, i knew she got to a place where she did not care about me and wanted someone else. That has never left me, and today, i know that i cannot go back. 

My problem, and ultimately my question, is what to do given that her betrayal caused me to close a door - i couldnt let her in, even though i tried. We care about each other, support each other, can laugh together, but i have a black hole where the love should be. She believes we have moved past it. I have come to the realization that i'll never be able to love her as i should, and that's not good for either of us. Truly, i think she does love me, but not like she wants to. She wants a deep intimacy, and to be adored, and i'm unable to give her that even though i have tried (early on I could, after the betrayal i cannot)

Her guilt over acting out, and fear over what might happen, keep her in it, and I believe she thinks we have good marriage. We don't fight and are in sync on our daily lives. I don't think she wants to start over, but i'm not OK with both of us missing out on life.

My mission is to figure out how to have conversations where we both can be honest , and get her to start thinking about what she wants. I will not abandon her or the kids, and i will continue to provide as i have for the last 20 years. My daughter is a freshman in highschool, and i can support the household until she's out of college. I can stay at the home, or move nearby with my widowed stepmother. 

Has anyone been in a similar situation, and what were your results, good or bad?


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## Lostinthought61

In the aftermath of her transgressions what kind of work had she performed in accepting her part in her cheating? did she take full responsibility? did she do any heavy labor to help save the marriage? or did she try to rug-sweep this..

I suspect that she still wants to be the apple of your eye but she does not realized that her actions killed your trust and your vision of her.


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## midatlanticdad

Lostinthought61 said:


> In the aftermath of her transgressions what kind of work had she performed in accepting her part in her cheating? did she take full responsibility? did she do any heavy labor to help save the marriage? or did she try to rug-sweep this..
> 
> 
> I suspect that she still wants to be the apple of your eye but she does not realized that her actions killed your trust and your vision of her.


It took about a month for her to admit she was wrong, and she made sure to make me understand all the things i did to push her away. I am not blameless, in that i wasn't present enough. IMO it was justification for her. so i wouldn't say it was full responsiblity


I think you are exactly right. I also think she tells herself the marriage is good, and tries to convince herself so that we don't break up. I really don't think she wants to split, out of fear and guilt.


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## Girl_power

It sounds like what happened in the past happened, and the damage is done, and she is okay with where you guys are now. She is making the best out of the situation so to speak. 

I have a question to you... do you think you will be able to find another women you love as much as you love/loved her? And if the answer is no, is it still worth leaving her?


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## Imagirl

midatlanticdad said:


> and she made sure to make me understand all the things i did to push her away.


Did she ever communicate her needs before she cheated?


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## midatlanticdad

Girl_power said:


> It sounds like what happened in the past happened, and the damage is done, and she is okay with where you guys are now. She is making the best out of the situation so to speak.
> 
> I have a question to you... do you think you will be able to find another women you love as much as you love/loved her? And if the answer is no, is it still worth leaving her?


im not worried about finding someone i will love as much. i believe we will be in each others lives. if i am going to be with someone i want to be fully open and able to love freely. If that doesn’t happen, i believe i will be ok knowing i wasn’t half in/half out. she deserves to have someone that can throw themselves in 100%. im sorta an all or nothing person. i also feel like she is convincing herself we are great together. I know she didn’t really believe that i was the one for her, and i dont like pretending. she has a lot of love to give and so do i, and neither one of us is doing that

thank you for your thoughts!


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## midatlanticdad

Imagirl said:


> Did she ever communicate her needs before she cheated?


never directly. i knew she wasnt loving how much i was gone. I was open to changing things (changing jobs) but she would have had to change what she was doing. 

I naively believed that if she was truly unhappy she would have sat me down and said we need to change something. So i don’t think she made sufficient attempts to fix it, but i also acknowledge that i could have tried harder to hear her. We have always struggled talking about the hard stuff with each other. our communication style is very different


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## sokillme

midatlanticdad said:


> Background:
> 
> Wife and i were married 20 years ago, and have two wonderful children, who are teens. She is very attractive and we were deeply in love. We were in our early 20s when married, and she loved the idea of starting a family. It became clear early on, i would take up the fight to provide for our family, and she would primarily raise the kids, and keep the household, with a plan of working when/where she could to supplement.
> 
> I am not afraid of working, and wanted very much to provide for my family. I worked full time, went to school at nite to finish up a bachelors degree, and dove headfirst into a rental property. Fast forward to year 12 of marriage, and i was stressed out, not home much, but on a very lucrative career path.
> 
> Our daily lives were so different, we didn't appreciate the others struggles. She wanted me to listen and understand her struggles, and being under a lot of stress to produce at work, i wasn't very sympathetic or understanding (even though i tried to be). Resentment grew on both sides, and she was quite nasty to me. I tried to make it up with promises of things getting easier and bigger house, nice car etc.
> 
> in the winter of 2012, i stumbled upon her FB account and found that she had reached out to an old boyfriend, the one that got away and broke her heart by cheating on her. Very handsome guy, and single. I was able to guess her password, and monitored their communications for weeks, all the while dying inside and wondering what i did to deserve this. I also found text messages between her and her cousin (very close like sisters) absolutely shredding me, that i was gross, and annoying.
> 
> i was a mess already - struggling at work bc of the demands placed on me, unable to sleep through the nite, finding myself medicating with alcohol inappropriately etc. I wanted help from my wife, and support/understanding - instead she turned elsewhere.
> 
> The messages went from playful banter, to flirting, to graphic sexual conversations, to arranging a meeting. I was determined to let the meeting happen and then confront her, and end the marriage. I was heartbroken, but desperate to find the right way out of it. They hadn't arranged an actual meeting place, and i couldn't wait any longer. In the middle of the night, i woke her (sleeping soundly as i laid quietly next to her in agonizing pain) and revealed i knew what she was up to.
> 
> At first, her reaction was quiet, i think she was trying to figure out what to say. Early on, her she seemed to think it was wrong, but no big deal. Over the following weeks i agonized with what to do. I ultimately determined that even though i had been betrayed, i couldn't yet give up on our relationship mostly for the kids sake, if we could reconcile. Without going into all the details, over the last 8 years, we went through many lows (including behavior on my part - developed a real drinking problem, which i'm past but did cause some problems, being absent, having a hard time being close) to a place now where i've forgiven her, our household is in good order, we parent well together get along fine, and i believe she truly regrets her actions. Over the years, there were periods where i had completely moved past it, but deep down, i knew she got to a place where she did not care about me and wanted someone else. That has never left me, and today, i know that i cannot go back.
> 
> My problem, and ultimately my question, is what to do given that her betrayal caused me to close a door - i couldnt let her in, even though i tried. We care about each other, support each other, can laugh together, but i have a black hole where the love should be. She believes we have moved past it. I have come to the realization that i'll never be able to love her as i should, and that's not good for either of us. Truly, i think she does love me, but not like she wants to. She wants a deep intimacy, and to be adored, and i'm unable to give her that even though i have tried (early on I could, after the betrayal i cannot)
> 
> Her guilt over acting out, and fear over what might happen, keep her in it, and I believe she thinks we have good marriage. We don't fight and are in sync on our daily lives. I don't think she wants to start over, but i'm not OK with both of us missing out on life.
> 
> My mission is to figure out how to have conversations where we both can be honest , and get her to start thinking about what she wants. I will not abandon her or the kids, and i will continue to provide as i have for the last 20 years. My daughter is a freshman in highschool, and i can support the household until she's out of college. I can stay at the home, or move nearby with my widowed stepmother.
> 
> Has anyone been in a similar situation, and what were your results, good or bad?


I have a friend who is married to a women whose parents stayed together for her and her brother. They had a very good working relationship but no affection or real love. Who knows why, if there was cheating or not. The point is this women never learned what a true affectionate marriage was like and it transferred into her marriage now with my friend. They are both good people but he is very unhappy in this aspect of his marriage to the point where he is thinking about divorce a lot. I think now they are talking about it but I know it came to a shock to her. In her mind she was acting out the marriage she grew up with. But she has no idea what a healthy marriage is or how affection works.

This more then anything else convinced me that staying for the kids is very often the wrong thing to do, especially when they are older. You may be doing more harm then good. At the very least you need to tell your wife that you are unhappy. Seems cheating spouses always think the marriage is good. 

By the way this women's parents got divorced when she was in her 30s. I know her Dad is with someone, not sure about the Mom. The longer you wait the harder it will be for your wife to meet anyone else too. 

Again at the very least tell your wife. Life is short my friend.

If not you need to resign yourself to the fact that this is what you should expect with her for the rest of your life.


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## sokillme

> My mission is to figure out how to have conversations where we both can be honest , and get her to start thinking about what she wants. I will not abandon her or the kids, and i will continue to provide as i have for the last 20 years. My daughter is a freshman in highschool, and i can support the household until she's out of college. I can stay at the home, or move nearby with my widowed stepmother.


Seem like where you should start. Also - 



> i couldnt let her in, even though i tried. We care about each other, support each other, can laugh together, but i have a black hole where the love should be. She believes we have moved past it. I have come to the realization that i'll never be able to love her as i should, and that's not good for either of us. Truly, i think she does love me, but not like she wants to. She wants a deep intimacy, and to be adored, and i'm unable to give her that even though i have tried (early on I could, after the betrayal i cannot)


Those two paragraphs say it all and are probably what you should have been saying all along.


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## Hiner112

"I love you but I'm not in love with you"?

I mean you could potentially go to marriage counseling and try to get past your issues but if you wanted to do that you already would have. 

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


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## Openminded

I stayed for decades with a cheater and attempted to rebuild my marriage because I didn’t believe in divorce then. I thought my child would benefit from that but I was wrong. Children need to grow up seeing two parents who love each other and are happy together. Believe me, they will notice if you aren’t.


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## DownByTheRiver

First of all, you wouldn't be abandoned in the kids. if you divorce you'll be seeing them more than ever because you will have 50% custody and that will be an obligation of yours to take care of them half the time. They'd still be seeing both of you plenty. And it's just as hard on them living in a resentful dark household as their parents living in two different places. 

And you'll also be supporting them whichever way it goes so I'm just a little confused by your thinking along those lines that you would be abandoning them. You won't be legally allowed to abandon them or stop paying for them until they're of age.

if you do need to get communication going maybe you need to get in marriage counseling together and see if you can get it all out on the table. Good luck.


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## manfromlamancha

You need to have a really frank discussion with her - sooner, rather than later. I think that it was a mistake to rug-sweep this in the manner you did (easy for me to say, I know) simply for the kids. You are right in believing that she did not (and still does not) think that you were the one. And the fact that she was willing to go back to a POS that cheated on her before does not make her someone worth staying with. I understand that she is beautiful etc (not to me, since behaviour/character counts a lot towards making someone appear beautiful to me) but this is skin deep and does not lead to (as you have realised) happiness.

Talk with her and see if you can get her to admit to her true feelings all these years. You never know, it might lead to the kind of awakening in both of you that might just lead to happiness - one way or another.


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## MattMatt

@midatlanticdad I would suggest marital and individual counselling.


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## WandaJ

Your kids are teenagers, they can take it if you and your wife make it easy on them. 
Mine are 12 and 15 and are completely fine with divorce. I guess they saw it coming. They are very excited about looking for houses, got themselves zillow accounts and plan for decorating two rooms. 
So divorce does not have to be extremely dramatic experience to your children.


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## Thumos

midatlanticdad said:


> Has anyone been in a similar situation, and what were your results, good or bad?


I’ve been in a similar situation but haven’t gone as long as 8 years after DDAY - just not quite 4 years in my case. Sounds somewhat similar to my situation but with a few differences. In my case the sexual affair happened and I confronted after getting proof after they’d already consummated the infidelity. I realized earlier this year this wasn’t going to get any better and would continue to haunt me. I told her a few weeks ago I want a divorce and I haven’t looked back since. We’re in the process of working it out and the timeline of doing it, but I can tell you I feel so much better and clearer than I have in years. Think about it. While your WW didn’t carry out the physical act, she wanted to and was starting to plan it out - so same difference. Your drinking is self medicating from the pain. I know because I did a little bit of this myself.


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## Thumos

Girl_power said:


> have a question to you... do you think you will be able to find another women you love as much as you love/loved her? And if the answer is no, is it still worth leaving her?


This question is a bit of a red herring tbh. Why? Because it comes from a place of fear and bc the love you had for her was somewhat illusory. I don’t mean you didn’t love her. I mean you loved a person who doesn’t exist. Your wife in front of you right now, that’s the real person. And the reason you don’t love her as much and can’t “adore” her is bc really cheaters aren’t adorable. so right there you have your answer: you will almost certainly find a woman you love as much if not more and likely more. Why? Because that woman won’t be the woman who betrayed you. It’s pretty simple logic.


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## Thumos

Imagirl said:


> Did she ever communicate her needs before she cheated


“Unmet needs” is the refuge of scoundrels, frankly, and it is a bottomless pit. Why? Because We are finite beings, and no one finite person is entirely capable of meeting the needs of another finite person. It is physically impossible. The old chestnut about communicating needs or meeting them constantly is an unrealistic expectation for a good marriage. Yes we should strive to meet our partner’s needs but this can become a never ending quest and is especially dangerous when dealing with emotional vampires (and cheaters of both genders usually are a type of emotional vampire).


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## jlg07

midatlanticdad said:


> never directly. i knew she wasnt loving how much i was gone. I was open to changing things (changing jobs) but she would have had to change what she was doing.
> 
> I naively believed that if she was truly unhappy she would have sat me down and said we need to change something. So i don’t think she made sufficient attempts to fix it, but i also acknowledge that i could have tried harder to hear her. We have always struggled talking about the hard stuff with each other. our communication style is very different


So, while you may have contributed to issues where she was unhappy, NONE of that gives her the OK to cheat.
The cheating is 100% on HER. If she was really that unhappy, she should have divorced you before cheating.


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## Lostinthought61

midatlanticdad said:


> It took about a month for her to admit she was wrong, and she made sure to make me understand all the things i did to push her away. I am not blameless, in that i wasn't present enough. IMO it was justification for her. so i wouldn't say it was full responsiblity
> 
> 
> I think you are exactly right. I also think she tells herself the marriage is good, and tries to convince herself so that we don't break up. I really don't think she wants to split, out of fear and guilt.


to be fair that is not taking 100% of the blame in her cheating, that is just trying to shame in you taking ownership in pushing her away and that is call crap sandwich, it taste just as bad as it looks. 
You realize you need to start from the beginning because you never really addressed it and if she is unwilling too than it might be time to move on.


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## sokillme

Cheaters cheat because of a lack of character, that's it. There are plenty of people with unmet needs who don't do it. When you say your marriage vows neither one of you is vowing to fulfill your partners every need or expecting it, you are vowing to honor, cherish and be faithful. And I am a person who believes if your reasonable expected needs are not met you have a right to confront that and even divorce in the most extreme circumstance. 

I mean look at it this way is she fulfilling your every need? I suspect you had a need for a fidelity and loyalty? Did you get that? What is her answer to that?

In the vast majority of cases they are just not worth it.


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## Kamstel2

Get a copy and read the book Too Good to Leave, Too Bad To Stay by Mira Kirshenbaum.

There is nothing wrong if this is a deal breaker for you. 

Good luck,
Stay Strong
And do what is best for you!


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## midatlanticdad

Hiner112 said:


> "I love you but I'm not in love with you"?
> 
> I mean you could potentially go to marriage counseling and try to get past your issues but if you wanted to do that you already would have.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk


i agree - we considered counseling right after, but i was certain i would tell her i wanted a divorce. i guess i was right


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## midatlanticdad

MattMatt said:


> @midatlanticdad I would suggest marital and individual counselling.


thank you. good advice, i made an appointment with a therapist for next weeek


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## midatlanticdad

Lostinthought61 said:


> to be fair that is not taking 100% of the blame in her cheating, that is just trying to shame in you taking ownership in pushing her away and that is call crap sandwich, it taste just as bad as it looks.
> You realize you need to start from the beginning because you never really addressed it and if she is unwilling too than it might be time to move on.


i agree


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## midatlanticdad

Kamstel2 said:


> Get a copy and read the book Too Good to Leave, Too Bad To Stay by Mira Kirshenbaum.
> 
> There is nothing wrong if this is a deal breaker for you.
> 
> Good luck,
> Stay Strong
> And do what is best for you!


thank you. i looked into this, it looks like its right up the right alley


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## lifeistooshort

OP, I wouldn't kid yourself.....women feel when they're not truly loved.

She knows you don't deeply love her.

By all means try counseling but this isn't fair to either of you. If after counseling you don't think you can get there go your separate ways.

One question: how will you feel when she finds someone else? If your answer is anything but a dagger in the heart your marriage is over.

I knew I was done with my ex when the thought of him with another didn't much bother me.


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## Thumos

lifeistooshort said:


> She knows you don't deeply love her.


Yes she probably does know this because she also knows she’s not worthy of it. She knows who and what she is better than you do. That’s why she tries to blame shift and practice subtle DARVO on you.

By all means seek IC for yourself. But don’t waste your time in MC - MC’s are not equipped to deal with infidelity and they only make it worse.

by the way, you know what she thought of you in messages to OM - short of an actual frontal lobotomy you can’t unknow this. My sense is that 1. You know you are worthy of love and respect and that her lies about you are wrong but also reflect her low character and 2. She repulses you bc she’s done repulsive things you can’t unsee or unknow.

does this seem like the basis for a satisfying relationship for you? Be selfish. Who cares about whether it’s good for her. What about you?

what do you want from life? This life, the only one you get.

the beatings will continue until the morale improves.


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## sokillme

lifeistooshort said:


> OP, I wouldn't kid yourself.....women feel when they're not truly loved.
> 
> She knows you don't deeply love her.
> 
> By all means try counseling but this isn't fair to either of you. If after counseling you don't think you can get there go your separate ways.
> 
> One question: how will you feel when she finds someone else? If your answer is anything but a dagger in the heart your marriage is over.
> 
> I knew I was done with my ex when the thought of him with another didn't much bother me.


Truth is he knows too. She had an affair and said what she did about him, so he knows he is not deeply loved either. It's a shame without the affair they probably would be able to recover, but the bond was broken.


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## Sbrown

I'd say she knows she's not loved, but is willing to put up with it to ride on the financial gravy train you provide.


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## sokillme

Sbrown said:


> I'd say she knows she's not loved, but is willing to put up with it to ride on the financial gravy train you provide.


As he has for the stability she does.


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## Sbrown

sokillme said:


> As he has for the stability she does.


It sounds like she's provided a real "stable" relationship.... by having an affair....


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## midatlanticdad

UPDATE:

So walking around with this the last few weeks was really starting to weigh on me. I was preparing myself to have the convo w/ her, sometime in september. I spoke with a few close friends, and got some perspective, and was feeling very stressed and depressed yesterday. So last nite, i told her i needed to talk. 

- let her know i have been struggling 
- discussed perpetual feeling of being in a partnership instead of marriage
- tied it back to infidelity years ago, that even though i tried over and over to get through it, and some times were good, ultimately i couldn't escape the reality that she didn't love me or care for me when that happened
- acknolwedged i pushed her away those many years ago, but in no way knew she was not OK
- i don't want to do that anymore
- i have been staying busy, involved in distractions and subconsciously not providing what i know she needs to be happy
- tried to get her to open up re: is she getting what she needs to be happy

Her reply


understanding that what happened was awful for me
agreed she was done at that time
but believes we have rehabbed and "gotten thru it"
marriage is good for her
doesn't want me to leave

I told her nothing would change, i would never abandon her, but she should think about what she really wants. She wants to make it better with us. She said she was afraid i was telling her i was leaving, and asked if i thought it could be fixed. I said "i don't know if it can" and she thinks we can.

I will have to get her there . . . i don't want her to be devastated, it was a good first conversation but she is misunderstanding where i am headed


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## Openminded

It’s not uncommon that the cheater wants to stay in the marriage. That was my situation and it complicated getting out because I really did want my marriage to work so for many years it was easier to stay. Not better — just easier.

She will probably do whatever she can think of to convince you not to leave. At the top of the list will likely be love bombing. Be prepared for lots of promises, etc. It’s difficult to end a marriage and it’s especially difficult if they’re begging and pleading. Maybe she won’t do any of that but then again she might.


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## midatlanticdad

Openminded said:


> It’s not uncommon that the cheater wants to stay in the marriage. That was my situation and it complicated getting out because I really did want my marriage to work so for many years it was easier to stay. Not better — just easier.
> 
> She will probably do whatever she can think of to convince you not to leave. At the top of the list will likely be love bombing. Be prepared for lots of promises, etc. It’s difficult to end a marriage and it’s especially difficult if they’re begging and pleading. Maybe she won’t do any of that but then again she might.


thank you for the insight. i think she might. how long did you go thru that process


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## notmyjamie

I'm sure the things you read about yourself back then hurt a lot. But...if she was in a cheating mindset, it makes sense that she would have convinced herself of that stuff. It's the old rewritten history thing, right? "He was never a good husband" we see it here all the time. But, that doesn't mean it's truly how she felt or feels about you now. She was trying to justify her choice to cheat. And it sounds like she found a toxic friend to egg her on with it. (Gotta hate those damn toxic friends!!!)

I never cheated but there were times I did not care for my husband very much and if given the chance to vent my frustrations with him I could have said some very unflattering things. I did love him though, very much. Just because I didn't like every aspect of him doesn't mean I didn't love him. 

So if you're difficulties are that you can't get past what was said about you back then because you feel it proves she didn't love you, it needs to be addressed if you want to save your marriage at all. What does she say about it now?


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## Openminded

midatlanticdad said:


> thank you for the insight. i think she might. how long did you go thru that process


Decades, unfortunately. 

I didn’t believe in divorce then — plus I was sure it could be saved. But I was wrong.


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## midatlanticdad

notmyjamie said:


> I'm sure the things you read about yourself back then hurt a lot. But...if she was in a cheating mindset, it makes sense that she would have convinced herself of that stuff. It's the old rewritten history thing, right? "He was never a good husband" we see it here all the time. But, that doesn't mean it's truly how she felt or feels about you now. She was trying to justify her choice to cheat. And it sounds like she found a toxic friend to egg her on with it. (Gotta hate those damn toxic friends!!!)
> 
> I never cheated but there were times I did not care for my husband very much and if given the chance to vent my frustrations with him I could have said some very unflattering things. I did love him though, very much. Just because I didn't like every aspect of him doesn't mean I didn't love him.
> 
> So if you're difficulties are that you can't get past what was said about you back then because you feel it proves she didn't love you, it needs to be addressed if you want to save your marriage at all. What does she say about it now?


my issues are if you truly cared about someone you dont spend weeks working on an EA that you want to turn into a PA (evidenced by the dialogue) and saw awful things about that person. maybe you and i think what it means to love someone is different, i have been upset with people i loved deeply before but never could have imagined doing either


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## midatlanticdad

Openminded said:


> Decades, unfortunately.
> 
> I didn’t believe in divorce then — plus I was sure it could be saved. But I was wrong.


wow. i'm sorry for that


----------



## notmyjamie

midatlanticdad said:


> my issues are if you truly cared about someone you dont spend weeks working on an EA that you want to turn into a PA (evidenced by the dialogue) and saw awful things about that person. maybe you and i think what it means to love someone is different, i have been upset with people i loved deeply before but never could have imagined doing either


I'm sorry...I wasn't very clear...I don't believe you can do that to someone you truly love either. But, I do believe people make things worse in order to justify cheating. So if she had been objective at the time and wasn't engaged in cheating, she may have not said as much or as hurtful things as she did. 

I think people who cheat convince themselves of a lot of crap to justify it. So she may have convinced herself she was not in love with you anymore so she'd be able to do what she did...that's rewriting history as well. Once the affair was revealed, she realizes she's going to lose you and all of a sudden things aren't as clear in her mind. Sometimes you don't know what you've got until it's gone kind of thing. 

I'm not sure I'm making sense. But, either way, there is NOTHING wrong with you deciding you can't stay married to her because of her betrayal, even if it was years ago. I left my exH 14 years after I learned of his betrayal. I finally decided that standing alone would be better than standing next to someone who is supposed to love you and want you and doesn't.


----------



## midatlanticdad

notmyjamie said:


> I'm sorry...I wasn't very clear...I don't believe you can do that to someone you truly love either. But, I do believe people make things worse in order to justify cheating. So if she had been objective at the time and wasn't engaged in cheating, she may have not said as much or as hurtful things as she did.
> 
> I think people who cheat convince themselves of a lot of crap to justify it. So she may have convinced herself she was not in love with you anymore so she'd be able to do what she did...that's rewriting history as well. Once the affair was revealed, she realizes she's going to lose you and all of a sudden things aren't as clear in her mind. Sometimes you don't know what you've got until it's gone kind of thing.
> 
> I'm not sure I'm making sense. But, either way, there is NOTHING wrong with you deciding you can't stay married to her because of her betrayal, even if it was years ago. I left my exH 14 years after I learned of his betrayal. I finally decided that standing alone would be better than standing next to someone who is supposed to love you and want you and doesn't.


thank you for clarifying. great perspective


----------



## Openminded

midatlanticdad said:


> my issues are if you truly cared about someone you dont spend weeks working on an EA that you want to turn into a PA (evidenced by the dialogue) and saw awful things about that person. maybe you and i think what it means to love someone is different, i have been upset with people i loved deeply before but never could have imagined doing either


No, I don’t think she loved you at the time. Women usually completely disconnect when they cheat. It’s certainly possible that after you caught her she decided to reconnect but during that period she didn’t care about you at all. Men can be different about that. My husband was convinced that he greatly loved me but that didn’t stop him from needing attention from other women. People do what they want to do at that moment and only after they’re caught do they turn their focus back to the marriage. Some reconciliations may be genuine but I’m not convinced that most are. They’re often a way to stay in the marriage when the cheater doesn’t want out.


----------



## BluesPower

midatlanticdad said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> So walking around with this the last few weeks was really starting to weigh on me. I was preparing myself to have the convo w/ her, sometime in september. I spoke with a few close friends, and got some perspective, and was feeling very stressed and depressed yesterday. So last nite, i told her i needed to talk.
> 
> 
> let her know i have been struggling
> discussed perpetual feeling of being in a partnership instead of marriage
> tied it back to infidelity years ago, that even though i tried over and over to get through it, and some times were good, ultimately i couldn't escape the reality that she didn't love me or care for me when that happened
> acknolwedged i pushed her away those many years ago, but in no way knew she was not OK
> i don't want to do that anymore
> i have been staying busy, involved in distractions and subconsciously not providing what i know she needs to be happy
> tried to get her to open up re: is she getting what she needs to be happy
> 
> Her reply
> 
> 
> understanding that what happened was awful for me
> agreed she was done at that time
> but believes we have rehabbed and "gotten thru it"
> marriage is good for her
> doesn't want me to leave
> I told her nothing would change, i would never abandon her, but she should think about what she really wants. She wants to make it better with us. She said she was afraid i was telling her i was leaving, and asked if i thought it could be fixed. I said "i don't know if it can" and she thinks we can.
> 
> I will have to get her there . . . i don't want her to be devastated, it was a good first conversation but she is misunderstanding where i am headed


This is you life, but...

What you should have said was, I cannot do this anymore I want a divorce. 

You have completely rug swept everything and this is the result... If she wanted to fix it she would have. 

You cannot now, or could you then, "Get her there" and you never will. 

You are wasting your life, I really feel sorry for you... 

Good luck and God bless...


----------



## midatlanticdad

BluesPower said:


> This is you life, but...
> 
> What you should have said was, I cannot do this anymore I want a divorce.
> 
> You have completely rug swept everything and this is the result... If she wanted to fix it she would have.
> 
> You cannot now, or could you then, "Get her there" and you never will.
> 
> You are wasting your life, I really feel sorry for you...
> 
> Good luck and God bless...


yes u are right, working on not wasting any longer. clearly im not there yet


----------



## sokillme

She is never going to understand. First of all no one really does to the full extent until it happens to them.

Besides that most WS think they have fixed the marriage and everything is great, they usually cheat because they are all messed up and the cheating helps them get the motivation to fix some of their brokenness so how can't it be better.

Not uncommon for the BS to say they think about the affair every day.

For the WS they have a mindset that is in the moment. For the BS the marriage is a life long project, their mindset is long term, so all of it is present, not just the moment.

It's this mindset that allows the WS to cheat, but also the BS not to be able to recover.

I mean see what she does, but if your done your done.


----------



## ScottL

*midatlanticdad*

There is a lot going on here. But what I have to say you may already know but might not want to hear.

You may need to work on yourself. Yes, she needs to work on herself two. 

What I see here is: two people who really do care about each other but have gotten into unhealthy habits in how they are with each other.
While I don't know all the specifics they really do not matter. What she did is because she needed something she was not getting.
I am not excusing her actions or yours. What I am saying is that this is a very good place to recover from. 

I can say this in many ways, but you betrayed her as much as she betrayed you. 
Yes, you did the things a good man is supposed to do. Work hard, bring home the money all the bs that society tells us. 

There are three main areas of our lives our health, wealth and relationships. 
We can be very successful in one and neglect the others. I know this, I have done this. It takes a lot of work and change to be able to do this.

It is only by taking are really honest look at ourselves, which few people really want to do, that we will be able to change.
But this change has nothing to do with her or whether you stay with her or not. Because if you leave her and get remarried in a couple of years, 
you will end up in the same place 20 years from now or sooner. That is because you took the same guy with you into the next relationship.

Whether you want to spend the next 4 years in the pain of staying for the kids or if you want to spend the next four years working on yourself and see if things change, that is up to you.

Many of us are programmed to think there is a thing called betrayal. But most of the time it is just the other person trying to work things out the only way they can think of at the time.
Your ego is bruised. But your ego is not the part of you that loves and cares, it is the part of you that separates you from others. 

There is a lot of acceptance, forgiveness, honesty and gratitude that may need to be expressed, but the ego does not like to do that because it thinks it is unsafe.
Or the ego will try it a little bit and say oh that did not work so I quit. 

I think you have a lot going for you. The road less traveled is the one of creating the best you. 

If you need some ideas, let me know.


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## sokillme

I didn't know Esther Perel joined here.

Amazing.


----------



## midatlanticdad

ScottL said:


> *midatlanticdad*
> 
> There is a lot going on here.  But what I have to say you may already know but might not want to hear.
> 
> You may need to work on yourself. Yes, she needs to work on herself two.
> 
> What I see here is: two people who really do care about each other but have gotten into unhealthy habits in how they are with each other.
> While I don't know all the specifics they really do not matter. What she did is because she needed something she was not getting.
> I am not excusing her actions or yours. What I am saying is that this is a very good place to recover from.
> 
> I can say this in many ways, but you betrayed her as much as she betrayed you.
> Yes, you did the things a good man is supposed to do. Work hard, bring home the money all the bs that society tells us.
> 
> There are three main areas of our lives our health, wealth and relationships.
> We can be very successful in one and neglect the others. I know this, I have done this. It takes a lot of work and change to be able to do this.
> 
> It is only by taking are really honest look at ourselves, which few people really want to do, that we will be able to change.
> But this change has nothing to do with her or whether you stay with her or not. Because if you leave her and get remarried in a couple of years,
> you will end up in the same place 20 years from now or sooner. That is because you took the same guy with you into the next relationship.
> 
> Whether you want to spend the next 4 years in the pain of staying for the kids or if you want to spend the next four years working on yourself and see if things change, that is up to you.
> 
> Many of us are programmed to think there is a thing called betrayal. But most of the time it is just the other person trying to work things out the only way they can think of at the time.
> Your ego is bruised. But your ego is not the part of you that loves and cares, it is the part of you that separates you from others.
> 
> There is a lot of acceptance, forgiveness, honesty and gratitude that may need to be expressed, but the ego does not like to do that because it thinks it is unsafe.
> Or the ego will try it a little bit and say oh that did not work so I quit.
> 
> I think you have a lot going for you. The road less traveled is the one of creating the best you.
> 
> If you need some ideas, let me know.


i have no issues hearing that and agree with just about all of it. I have started seeing a therapist, which honestly has galvanized that this will be impossible for me to recover from and have a deep relationship. I also totally agree that my actions ruined the marriage. She was totally done with me, which i orchestrated, and take responsibility for. We both are very bad at having the hard conversations. Our makeup and inability to communicate on real things is the perfect storm for irreparable harm. I regret not understanding what i was doing, and regret not understanding that i had underlying issues that led me to be so absent. In my mind, i was a hero for doing all of the heavy lifting. I was too foolish and arrogant to understand all i was doing was killing our relationship.


----------



## ScottL

midatlanticdad said:


> i have no issues hearing that and agree with just about all of it. I have started seeing a therapist, which honestly has galvanized that this will be impossible for me to recover from and have a deep relationship. I also totally agree that my actions ruined the marriage. She was totally done with me, which i orchestrated, and take responsibility for. We both are very bad at having the hard conversations. Our makeup and inability to communicate on real things is the perfect storm for irreparable harm. I regret not understanding what i was doing, and regret not understanding that i had underlying issues that led me to be so absent. In my mind, i was a hero for doing all of the heavy lifting. I was too foolish and arrogant to understand all i was doing was killing our relationship.


I have seen therapists and they do have value. I hope you have a really good one. The change can never come from reliving the past. The change has to start in the present moment.
Yes, we have things that we need to let go of and it is great to have a trusted outlet for these things. 
I know all about being the hero. The hero is part of our ego, just like the victim, the tyrant, the prideful man, and all the other characters. The thing is you can get lost for years examining these parts of you while making little progress on the real change. 

One of the first things I suggest to my clients is to get a real clear picture of how you want to show up in this world.
How do you want to have those difficult conversations? (If they aren't going to happen in this relationship they will need to in the next.)
How do you want to love and be loved?
How do you will make the agreements with others you are in relationships with? 
How do you want to balance your work and family?
What is it that you want to leave as a legacy?

This is not an ideal to judge yourself against but and ideal to work towards knowing that it is a process.
The process always takes place now, not in the future and not in the past. 
Not many people will really take on this challenge.

Great Journeys.


----------



## BluesPower

midatlanticdad said:


> i have no issues hearing that and agree with just about all of it. I have started seeing a therapist, which honestly has galvanized that this will be impossible for me to recover from and have a deep relationship. I also totally agree that my actions ruined the marriage. She was totally done with me, which i orchestrated, and take responsibility for. We both are very bad at having the hard conversations. Our makeup and inability to communicate on real things is the perfect storm for irreparable harm. I regret not understanding what i was doing, and regret not understanding that i had underlying issues that led me to be so absent. In my mind, i was a hero for doing all of the heavy lifting. I was too foolish and arrogant to understand all i was doing was killing our relationship.


You need to know agree with any of it, his post is all of the ester pearl horse ****. 

File for divorce and please for God's sake move on. 

NOTHING YOU EVER DID was a reason to cheat. She cheated because she had, and probably has, NO RESPECT for you. She cheated because she is a POS lying cheater. She cheated because she was selfish and immoral. 

Good grief OP, have you not learned anything this whole time. 

One, JUST ONE, EP devotee can make a post and you by it. 

Brother you need to wake up. Your wife did not love you then and she probably does not now. 

If you want to be a better man, do it for a woman that matters a woman that deserve it. 

NOT THIS CHEATING WIFE...


----------



## sokillme

midatlanticdad said:


> i have no issues hearing that and agree with just about all of it. I have started seeing a therapist, which honestly has galvanized that this will be impossible for me to recover from and have a deep relationship. I also totally agree that my actions ruined the marriage. She was totally done with me, which i orchestrated, and take responsibility for. We both are very bad at having the hard conversations. Our makeup and inability to communicate on real things is the perfect storm for irreparable harm. I regret not understanding what i was doing, and regret not understanding that i had underlying issues that led me to be so absent. In my mind, i was a hero for doing all of the heavy lifting. I was too foolish and arrogant to understand all i was doing was killing our relationship.


You're right her cheating is all your fault. 

Good luck with that.


----------



## BluesPower

sokillme said:


> You're right her cheating is all your fault.
> 
> Good luck with that.


You know, I think I am done with this. In the end you cannot help people that don't want help. 

Look at the AHGuy's thread, he is caving and going to stay... It is so sad....


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## sokillme

Dude what you have to realize is it's part of why they are there in the first place. A man stays with a women who denigrates him to her lover because he it the type of person who takes on her abuse as his responsibility. It's no different then the women whose husband hits her but she says I had it coming because "I mouthed off".

What's worse are the people who actually ask you to pay them to tell you you had it coming.


----------



## midatlanticdad

sokillme said:


> Dude what you have to realize is it's part of why they are there in the first place. A man stays with a women who denigrates him to her lover because he it the type of person who takes on her abuse as his responsibility. It's no different then the women whose husband hits her but she says I had it coming because "I mouthed off".
> 
> What's worse are the people who actually ask you to pay them to tell you you had it coming.



merely accepting responsiblity for my part. if i had to say who was the bad one here, its not me.


----------



## midatlanticdad

BluesPower said:


> You know, I think I am done with this. In the end you cannot help people that don't want help.
> 
> Look at the AHGuy's thread, he is caving and going to stay... It is so sad....


Back to whatever it was that you were doing then i suppose lol! you'll be sorely missed . . .


----------



## sokillme

midatlanticdad said:


> merely accepting responsiblity for my part. if i had to say who was the bad one here, its not me.





> my actions ruined the marriage


You wrote -



> my actions ruined the marriage


That sounds like your responsibility then.


----------



## Imnobodynew

OP as a product of a family that tried to stay together, please don't. It doesn't really make things better. I struggle with dealing with guilt. I feel guilty all the time, constantly fighting with my sense of self confidence. It's what my parents modeled for me. If your staying as family business partners, then say so. Move into separate rooms. Separate the finances, etc. Say why, so they understand the consequences of people actions. If then you decide down the road, that your planning on leaving it makes it easier to swallow. Dont just spring it on them.

No matter what parents say, kids blame themselves unless there is a tangible reason. Doesnt mean they will love thier any mother less, but it makes the split more objectionable.


----------



## midatlanticdad

Imnobodynew said:


> OP as a product of a family that tried to stay together, please don't. It doesn't really make things better. I struggle with dealing with guilt. I feel guilty all the time, constantly fighting with my sense of self confidence. It's what my parents modeled for me. If your staying as family business partners, then say so. Move into separate rooms. Separate the finances, etc. Say why, so they understand the consequences of people actions. If then you decide down the road, that your planning on leaving it makes it easier to swallow. Dont just spring it on them.
> 
> No matter what parents say, kids blame themselves unless there is a tangible reason. Doesnt mean they will love thier any mother less, but it makes the split more objectionable.


thank you. i'm 99% sure i need to do this for both of us. i feel guilty for wanting to be honest and take care of me. it sucks.

how long did you try, and how long has it been since you left


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## Imnobodynew

Sorry for the late reply.
My parents cheated on one another and stayed. I am the product of their staying. I struggle with the explosive fallout of their divorce and abandonment.


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## Imnobodynew

I would like to add a little to my past post. Most highly social asian cultures in the upper social economics take this route. The stability for the kids mean everything. So the marriage moves to a partnership with explicit rules until the kids leave the nest. Then the marriage is dissolved, from the outside people can guess what happened, but the kids and the family knows it's just bot talked about publically.


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## midatlanticdad

Imnobodynew said:


> I would like to add a little to my past post. Most highly social asian cultures in the upper social economics take this route. The stability for the kids mean everything. So the marriage moves to a partnership with explicit rules until the kids leave the nest. Then the marriage is dissolved, from the outside people can guess what happened, but the kids and the family knows it's just bot talked about publically.


thanks for the context. we are having open discussions and both agree that our relationship doesn't provide a good example for the kids and we both worry about that. we are moving in the right direction i.e. being more honest about the failures on both sides, and acknolwedging what we have isnt' good


----------



## Imnobodynew

How are you doing op?


----------



## DownByTheRiver

I wish I had a good answer for you. It sounds like your intentions were good, but I think you may have overestimated how much a woman wants to be provided for and overlooked they also want to "share" their life with someone, not just have someone working all the time and drop the money into the account. I mean, what was family life like for her? Just her kids, sounds like, and no one to talk to about the many things that come up with the kids. And you were working so much, which she couldn't relate to, so you had no one to understand either. I just think in hindsight, you both working some might have given you more things in common to share, that's all. I know you meant the best, but women need that closeness. 

Isn't this handsome one that got away married with a family by now? Do you feel he's a real threat?


----------



## notmyjamie

Imnobodynew said:


> No matter what parents say, kids blame themselves unless there is a tangible reason. Doesnt mean they will love thier any mother less, but it makes the split more objectionable.


I have to agree with this. When we told our kids our separation was turning into a divorce they were actually happy when they learned it's because their Dad is gay. It gave them a tangible reason that was nobody's fault, it is what it is.


----------



## midatlanticdad

Imnobodynew said:


> How are you doing op?



Thanks for asking. Since i last posted, she has started with therapy. i have started sleeping on the couch or basement most nites. i was avoiding her a lot which caused her to really break down. I told her i needed time to work through everything and begged her to focus on her and what she needed.

Friday she had a pretty good meltdown and wanted to know why i wouldn't say i wanted to fix the marriage. i said i wanted to get to the right answer. Her therapist then told her to focus on herself and stay in her lane. 

We had a really good talk last nite, i let her know i wasn't sure if i would be able to get over our past and she acknowledged that. i also am seeing her start to vocalize what it is that she needs, which i think is really important.

i hope that after another month or so of therapy, she will be able to articulate what she wants and realize that this marriage won't give her that. That will be the big step in moving in the direction i believe we are headed.


----------



## midatlanticdad

DownByTheRiver said:


> I wish I had a good answer for you. It sounds like your intentions were good, but I think you may have overestimated how much a woman wants to be provided for and overlooked they also want to "share" their life with someone, not just have someone working all the time and drop the money into the account. I mean, what was family life like for her? Just her kids, sounds like, and no one to talk to about the many things that come up with the kids. And you were working so much, which she couldn't relate to, so you had no one to understand either. I just think in hindsight, you both working some might have given you more things in common to share, that's all. I know you meant the best, but women need that closeness.
> 
> Isn't this handsome one that got away married with a family by now? Do you feel he's a real threat?


a lot of truth to that. I took the route of being hte provider because she wanted to start having a family and stay home. From my persepctive, i was giving her what she wanted. 

We never have been able to adequately communicate our struggles to the other. I never could see it from her view, and she cound't see it from my view. We are left/right brained differently.

I believe Mr. Handsome is married. If we go our separate ways (likely) she is welcome to pursue whomever she chooses.


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## DownByTheRiver

I doubt Mr. Handsome will give up his marriage for her. 

In marriage, it's common enough, especially having kids, that people just don't know what they're getting into and their needs and wants change. She found out that just having you bringing home the paycheck created a gulf between you. You did what a man would do if a wife said she wanted to stay home with the kids. But most of all, women are going to want to share their motherhood and talk about their daily happenings, which are mundane to anyone except a mother, usually. If you share child duties, then you can have a better back and forth. If you both work, then you both get that. I don't think anyone did anything wrong. I just don't think it worked out the way anyone envisioned. You might talk to her and just see if she's willing to totally shake it up, you work less, she returns to work some, you share in everything more. It might work, it might not work. It's a lot, but some people do it.


----------



## midatlanticdad

DownByTheRiver said:


> I doubt Mr. Handsome will give up his marriage for her.
> 
> In marriage, it's common enough, especially having kids, that people just don't know what they're getting into and their needs and wants change. She found out that just having you bringing home the paycheck created a gulf between you. You did what a man would do if a wife said she wanted to stay home with the kids. But most of all, women are going to want to share their motherhood and talk about their daily happenings, which are mundane to anyone except a mother, usually. If you share child duties, then you can have a better back and forth. If you both work, then you both get that. I don't think anyone did anything wrong. I just don't think it worked out the way anyone envisioned. You might talk to her and just see if she's willing to totally shake it up, you work less, she returns to work some, you share in everything more. It might work, it might not work. It's a lot, but some people do it.


thanks - i agree with this and good advice. However, i have never gotten over her deciding that i couldn't (or wouldn't) fulfill her needs, and theres no going back for me. I have learned that i didn't make it easy for her (near impossible) to be heard. Our personality types appear to be uniquely situated to foster a near complete lack of commuincation on personal stuff.


----------



## manfromlamancha

The bottom line is that you are now "out" - whether this marriage can be fixed or not, it is clear that you do not want to and that is understandable. So make it clean and quick and move on. FWIW, I too think that this can be fixed but it is a tough road to travel and it may be that you just do not want to go through this hardship.


----------



## midatlanticdad

manfromlamancha said:


> The bottom line is that you are now "out" - whether this marriage can be fixed or not, it is clear that you do not want to and that is understandable. So make it clean and quick and move on. FWIW, I too think that this can be fixed but it is a tough road to travel and it may be that you just do not want to go through this hardship.


thanks. you are right, ,i am out. I don't think it can be fixed, because i will never trust we are together for the right reasons. That is what i have come to realize and even if she could commit and be truly happy, i know now that i will not be able to. That will keep me from getting close, and will not be able to provide the appropriate attention love or care.


----------



## Imnobodynew

Most here seem to subscribe to 50% relationship issues, 0% infidelity ones, and 100% self responsiblity. I agree with this breakdown. Regardless of the marriage breakdown, it could have been saved until she cheated. The marriage itself is dead. The sanctuary that is created from the sanctimonious nature of marriage was killed when she cheated.

That being said you might get bored and not like single life. You have put off making this decision for many years now for whatever reason (maybe because subconsciously you know this). You will find that single life isn't all that's it's made out to be. Most people our age 40 plus, are single because people dont want to be with them ie baggage, character flaws, craziness, cheating etc.. The few you would want to be with are all snatched up and long spoken for or long time dating.

The one night stands get old quick, and fwb is just using duct tape to ignore deep scars. Most of these find themselves unhappy but unable to commit to others. If they do get married it usually doesn't end well. 

May I suggest a trial operation or a divorce/ reunion plan? I know that most here don't favor this but in your case maybe it will help? Separate yourselves from the ick of this dead marriage and see what it means to be single. You might find single life isn't all its cracked up to be and want to come back home. 

If she has been true and faithful since, maybe you need to restart the marriage from scratch to see it from a new light. She did something terrible. Many of us have. Everyone is guilty of something. Start over. Separate, go to ic, date each other again. Get to know the new her. The one that wont run off or cheat even when handsome ones are at the door steps. 

As other people mentioned it take a certain type of person to put off thier pride and learn to get into that dark place with a partner. It's harder to go there when you didn't deserve it and it's due to betrayal on their partners part. You've got to want it and there has to be motivation to do it. It's like beating an unmotivated ass, it won't budge unless it wants to.

Ultimately it comes to what you both want but take the kids into consideration. Make sure they understand why so they don't repeat your generations mistakes.


----------



## Openminded

Trust is very difficult to recover after infidelity. I spent decades trying to make R work before I finally ended it (after DD2).

Some marriages just aren’t meant to be.


----------



## nekonamida

midatlanticdad said:


> i hope that after another month or so of therapy, she will be able to articulate what she wants and realize that this marriage won't give her that. That will be the big step in moving in the direction i believe we are headed.


This is wishful thinking. If your wife was an honest and introspective person capable of admitting to herself that the marriage was not suiting her needs, you wouldn't be where you are today. One month, even with some guidance, isn't going to bring that to the forefront. And I think it's clear from your account of the past and her reaction to separation that your current marriage has been meeting her needs. Otherwise she'd be out screwing OM or someone new. She'd be initiating a separation/divorce herself. She'd be complaining and blaming you for the state of the marriage. She wouldn't be contentedly going about her day and then talking about how good she thought the marriage was when handed a separation on a golden platter. She may be somewhat in denial about the state of the marriage but it's unlikely that she will swing this far back to seeing separation as a good solution because she's firmly in "save the marriage" mode and all talk of "Well maybe..." from you just strings her along leaving her to think this is fixable if she just works harder and pushes you harder towards staying together.

What she did back then was re-writing and blame shifting. It's Wayward Behavior 101. She had to come up with a good reason to cheat that wasn't putting the blame on herself so she chose to blame you. Think about it - after her affair was revealed, your marriage didn't improve. It got WORSE. Your attention further strayed from her. Your passion all but fizzled out. And yet she didn't cheat again that you know of so how was that the culprit to begin with? Instead she did what most cheaters do. She said, "Oh ****," and realized how good she had it with you and cut the crap. So yes, it makes sense that after she went out and had her fun with the OM, the marriage was still good for her. She got to have her cake and eat it too with little to no big consequences. Yeah, sure, your pain and mental stability took a nose dive and I'm sure she felt bad but clearly not bad enough to genuinely apologize and get the both of you some much needed help until you mentioned divorce. So how bad could she really have felt watching you spiral out of control?

Also, don't you think it's a little spineless on your part to talk so much about how the marriage isn't salvageable and how unhappy you are but then place this big responsibility on her to be the one to call time on your marriage? If you're unhappy and you don't believe the marriage can be fixed, who cares what she wants? What about what YOU want? By giving you her power and placing it in her incompetent hands, you're setting yourself up for being talked back into a situation that you know is bad for you. Why would you do that? Maybe because divorce and change are scary? If you're not set on divorcing her, the only one who needs to figure out and articulate what they want is you and then follow through. No more handing off the marriage to her because she's already told you what she wants. She's already made it clear that this marriage is good for her. Listen and step up. The ball is in your court now.


----------



## Imnobodynew

I think trust is hard to recover period. I'm sorry you were unable to regain it. I've seen others with broken marriages put the work in, and they did make it. I think it comes down to everyone is different. 

The op has already stated he has made up his mind and wants out. I was suggesting that there alternatives and what he might expect when he gets out. 

From his writing he seems like a stand up guy. There are options for stand up people. I will say I agree most marriages seem to be sunk after infidelity, doesn't mean that a different ending can't work. That ending requires a lot of work. If the op isn't inclined to do it then its pointless. 

No marriage is guaranteed. Marriage can end with or without infidelity. Marriage takes a lot of work. Even more so to those who value the sanctity it offers. But it takes two people who want to work on it together. It is a partnership, a connection, a for sexual satisfaction, emotional satisfaction, and a sanctuary built on trust. 

OP has already checked out. For good reason too. Just pointing out there are alternatives, even if there are no guarantees.


----------



## Imnobodynew

I agree with Neko. Stand up or stand out. Just don't blame her indecision for making your choices. Decide and be a man. 

Know that there is no magic ball. You have choices and you don't have be narrow or set in your choices. When coming to intersections in life make sure you weigh your turns carefully, the easy ones are not always easy, and the harder ones can have a bigger payout, but require more work. You have to make that choice and live with it. Make it wisely.


----------



## sokillme

Imnobodynew said:


> Most here seem to subscribe to 50% relationship issues, 0% infidelity ones, and 100% self responsiblity. I agree with this breakdown. Regardless of the marriage breakdown, it could have been saved until she cheated. The marriage itself is dead. The sanctuary that is created from the sanctimonious nature of marriage was killed when she cheated.


I used to think that but now I generally think the kind of person selfish enough to cheat for the most part sucks. That doesn't just all of the sudden happen out of the blue. Nah they are just useless when it comes to having relationships with period and contributed a lot more then 50% of the marriage problems.


----------



## Imnobodynew

This is true. Not all people are mature or have the ethics cut out to be married. But some do and the do bad things. Marriage is a partnership. Absent people, alcoholism, mental issues, sometimes unresolved csa crap, and an abundance of other issues can kill a marriage. 

I subscribe that marriage is a partnership and its rest squarely on the shoulders of those in the partnership. There are crappy people, but there are good people who do bad things. There is no cookie cutter. Sometimes good people do bad things for whatever reason. Desperate people do desperate things. But one can only be on the hook for half of a marriage and no more. Only half of the responsibility falls on them, becuase it's a partnership. Doesn't mean the other person isn't a terrible partner, just means that's all they are responsible for. 

Sorry I won't thread jack


----------



## midatlanticdad

nekonamida said:


> Also, don't you think it's a little spineless on your part to talk so much about how the marriage isn't salvageable and how unhappy you are but then place this big responsibility on her to be the one to call time on your marriage? If you're unhappy and you don't believe the marriage can be fixed, who cares what she wants? What about what YOU want? By giving you her power and placing it in her incompetent hands, you're setting yourself up for being talked back into a situation that you know is bad for you. Why would you do that? Maybe because divorce and change are scary? If you're not set on divorcing her, the only one who needs to figure out and articulate what they want is you and then follow through. No more handing off the marriage to her because she's already told you what she wants. She's already made it clear that this marriage is good for her. Listen and step up. The ball is in your court now.



Wow. Succinct and powerful. I think i needed to hear that.

and regard to your comment above - yes - spineless. I do now believe should would choose to stay 10 times out of 10 even with not being truly fulfilled by me. After all she has had many years to get used to it. 

I stayed for the kids. Cliche i know. I always thought it would fall apart once they got old enough, and me pulling on this thread with her was an attempt at getting to that truth. Now i know she finds the relatinoshhip to be good enough - not worth it to her to roll the dice.

It has been very stressful to me to be going thru the motions with her. I will have to do as has been suggested and man up.


----------



## midatlanticdad

Imnobodynew said:


> I agree with Neko. Stand up or stand out. Just don't blame her indecision for making your choices. Decide and be a man.
> 
> Know that there is no magic ball. You have choices and you don't have be narrow or set in your choices. When coming to intersections in life make sure you weigh your turns carefully, the easy ones are not always easy, and the harder ones can have a bigger payout, but require more work. You have to make that choice and live with it. Make it wisely.


thank you. i know what i need to do to be true to myself. I may live to regret it, but i do realize that i am 100% certain i will regret continuing on the way i am


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## midatlanticdad

so a long weekend of full of conversations. One of the focuses of her therapy is to strengthen her as an individual and to steer away from negativity. She stated she can't see us separating - doesn't see that happening. I am making arrangements after work to get a place to stay - ideally begin of nov. I want to be close by and continue to be around the kids and help with the day to day. i am going to have to rip the bandaid off . she is hoping i can get past the issues in the past, but i told her it changed forever for me and i don't see that happening. she just said she hoped i could.

feels as though staying will be painful and leaving will be painful. My problem is the reasons for staying are 1) to not hurt her 2) to not hurt kids / other family members 3) bc i'm afraid of being alone. I don't think that works for me


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## Nailhead

"she just said she hoped i could."

Don't let it or have your stbxw think it will change. Have her served the D papers and stop stringing along.


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## Thumos

Those were my reasons for staying, too. They aren't good enough, are they? Because ultimately you realize you are sacrificing your life and your happiness for everyone else and because of your fears. 

I am curious about what living arrangements you are lining up, as I'm looking around and trying to figure out the same thing. You don't have to go into detail and could always PM me if you want. Just want to know what you're looking at. I've been checking out a scenario of storage unit for most of my stuff and a furnished corporate apt. short term until I figure out what I want more permanently.


----------



## sokillme

DownByTheRiver said:


> I don't think anyone did anything wrong. I just don't think it worked out the way anyone envisioned.


Except for the cheating (not saying you are saying that, but the context should not be lost here). This Husband works too hard Wife is lonely with kids all day is a very very common dynamic in certain times marriage and not even a hint of excuse to cheat emotionally. I can understand being tempted, but she cheated and she now faces the long term consequences. 

Lots of marriages don't make it without cheating. The damage is done.


----------



## sokillme

midatlanticdad said:


> so a long weekend of full of conversations. One of the focuses of her therapy is to strengthen her as an individual and to steer away from negativity. She stated she can't see us separating - doesn't see that happening. I am making arrangements after work to get a place to stay - ideally begin of nov. I want to be close by and continue to be around the kids and help with the day to day. i am going to have to rip the bandaid off . she is hoping i can get past the issues in the past, but i told her it changed forever for me and i don't see that happening. she just said she hoped i could.
> 
> feels as though staying will be painful and leaving will be painful. My problem is the reasons for staying are 1) to not hurt her 2) to not hurt kids / other family members 3) bc i'm afraid of being alone. I don't think that works for me


I think you need to tell her that you don't see her the same way you did before and that has really changed the nature of your relationship. What you are trying to get across delicately is that you can't love her like a wife anymore because of what she did, and how that changed your perception of her. The point is as you see her now, you wouldn't have picked her to be married to.

If she gets that she will accept that your marriage is over. Thing is most people who cheat aren't really good at being introspective or empathizing.

Just be kind to her. If you are going to serve her let her know, don't surprise her. Even though she wasn't honorable you can be, and it sounds like she tried.


----------



## nekonamida

midatlanticdad said:


> thank you. i know what i need to do to be true to myself. I may live to regret it, but i do realize that i am 100% certain i will regret continuing on the way i am


If it makes you feel better, I have personally never met someone in your shoes who chose separation and regretted it. I know of one man who re-married his cheating wife after divorcing her and the poor guy has no idea that she's gearing up to divorce him so I'd imagine he's going to regret that in the not-so-distant future. Your gut is telling you to do this for a reason and I bet your heart and mind will fully align once you move out and have some space from your WW. 

If you do wind up regretting it, she will likely still be there and you can change your mind assuming you don't wait years to do it. It feels like you're risking everything but really everything you are about to change can be re-gained. You can move back in. You can make more money. You can replace just about everything you would be giving up but you can't replace your feelings of freedom and dignity if you stay without even trying to see what life could be like on the other side.


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## midatlanticdad

Thumos said:


> Those were my reasons for staying, too. They aren't good enough, are they? Because ultimately you realize you are sacrificing your life and your happiness for everyone else and because of your fears.
> 
> I am curious about what living arrangements you are lining up, as I'm looking around and trying to figure out the same thing. You don't have to go into detail and could always PM me if you want. Just want to know what you're looking at. I've been checking out a scenario of storage unit for most of my stuff and a furnished corporate apt. short term until I figure out what I want more permanently.


thanks.

i will pm u


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## midatlanticdad

sokillme said:


> I think you need to tell her that you don't see her the same way you did before and that has really changed the nature of your relationship. What you are trying to get across delicately is that you can't love her like a wife anymore because of what she did, and how that changed your perception of her. The point is as you see her now, you wouldn't have picked her to be married to.
> 
> If she gets that she will accept that your marriage is over. Thing is most people who cheat aren't really good at being introspective or empathizing.
> 
> Just be kind to her. If you are going to serve her let her know, don't surprise her. Even though she wasn't honorable you can be, and it sounds like she tried.


Wow. Just WOW. Nail on head. this truly captures everything i feel. i'm going to print this out and read from it! She is notoriously bad at introspection. she really doesn't understand what it did to me. I am just now starting to feel like i can be myself. being in this marriage has sapped my confidence almost completely and thinking the way i am now, it is starting to come back. i don't think she understands that.

thank you


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## midatlanticdad

nekonamida said:


> If it makes you feel better, I have personally never met someone in your shoes who chose separation and regretted it. I know of one man who re-married his cheating wife after divorcing her and the poor guy has no idea that she's gearing up to divorce him so I'd imagine he's going to regret that in the not-so-distant future. Your gut is telling you to do this for a reason and I bet your heart and mind will fully align once you move out and have some space from your WW.
> 
> If you do wind up regretting it, she will likely still be there and you can change your mind assuming you don't wait years to do it. It feels like you're risking everything but really everything you are about to change can be re-gained. You can move back in. You can make more money. You can replace just about everything you would be giving up but you can't replace your feelings of freedom and dignity if you stay without even trying to see what life could be like on the other side.


this is helplful. i know that its right.


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## Imnobodynew

Hey op.

You've made your mind. Just walk in an amicable way, but not forsaking your own moral aet. Do unto others type thing. Take your turn, walk your path. Just dont fall into a trap of ego. Put your kids first. Part of putting them first is making this as amicable as possible. Put your big boy pants on, and be firm and resolute as you need to cut a gentle as a lamb. It helps when seeking favorable terms too.


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## midatlanticdad

Mini-update 

Arrangements set for Nov 1 move out - close to home.

going to sit her down the weekend before and tell her. have some
family stuff going on this week.

we haven’t talked much about our issues and i think the void of emotional conversations has her thinking things are improving.

there just isn’t anything more to say at this point.

any pointers for where to go with her to talk? would like to do it somewhere not at home where the kids will
be


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## Imnobodynew

You have a few choices:
1 somewhere neutral like a lake open space but private type thing. Let's you get loud or such...go in a single car so no stomping off or separate cars she meets you there and can leave


2. Restaurant forces the conversation to be somewhat cordial but uncontrollable crying can kinda ruin it.

3. Get a hotel room with two bedrooms suite type thing. Have some wine and be friends... 

4. In front of a marital counselor?

I'm sure there is more options, just a few suggestions.


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## re16

midatlantic - If you are dropping the news this coming weekend that you are moving out soon, there is probably a lot of emotion tied in with that for you. Keep your resolve, you are heading into the hardest part which will soon be followed with the feeling of a massive weight being lifted off of you.

I keep coming back to this from your first post:



midatlanticdad said:


> I also found text messages between her and her cousin (very close like sisters) absolutely shredding me, that i was gross, and annoying


Hearing my wife describe me like that to others would be a nail in the marriage coffin. She wasn't in the marriage for love. Stay strong.


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## midatlanticdad

re16 said:


> midatlantic - If you are dropping the news this coming weekend that you are moving out soon, there is probably a lot of emotion tied in with that for you. Keep your resolve, you are heading into the hardest part which will soon be followed with the feeling of a massive weight being lifted off of you.
> 
> I keep coming back to this from your first post:
> 
> 
> 
> Hearing my wife describe me like that to others would be a nail in the marriage coffin. She wasn't in the marriage for love. Stay strong.


Thanks man. Yea it sucked. she definitely hated me at that point.

things have happened already ill make another post to update


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## midatlanticdad

Update:

So i talked to her last weekend. i think saturday nite. Didn’t want to wait.

She was having a call w her therapist and i decided to sit her down and let her know that was the next step.

It was very emotional. She agreed that if i needed space that she wouldnt fight it. 

She asked for some
boundaries and asked if we could set a timetable on the separation. some of this happened over a few days.

I suggested nov 1 to the end of the year and we would stay in constant communication. 

we told the kids tonight that ill be sleeping each nite out of the house but will be there every day, and it was to allow us each to work on ourselves.

They didn’t really react too much, likely mostly because it was an uncomfortable conversation


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## midatlanticdad

Been moved out since 10/31

was very hard but the last few days have been much better 

still at tge house frequently to see kids and participate in daily routine 

hard on us both, but she is doing ok

she’s hoping to reconcile


----------



## Openminded

And what are you hoping?


----------



## sokillme

midatlanticdad said:


> Been moved out since 10/31
> 
> was very hard but the last few days have been much better
> 
> still at tge house frequently to see kids and participate in daily routine
> 
> hard on us both, but she is doing ok
> 
> she’s hoping to reconcile


What are you plans? What have you agreed upon?


----------



## sokillme

So since this came up I read through this thread again to make sure I remembered everything. I think it is illuminating in the fact that some folks are saying that this is one of those situations where the marriage can be saved, and I think in some cases a situation like this, it's true. 

I think what is often missing in this discussion is that when there is abuse in relationships of the kind that adultery is, where it causes great trauma, this very often causes the spouse that was abused to eventually lose, respect and finally faith in the abusive spouse, even in the relationship. 

This can also eventually erode the love for that abusive spouse to the point where it goes away. In those cases for many, the marriage isn't worth saving. Very often this is what the BS is really dealing with thought they fail to articulate it. Often the focus seems to be on the structure of the marriage or even the current relationship, but not in the context of love. I think for some if you don't love the person and they abused you in the past, the marriage even if the current day to day partnership is good, is just not worth it, particularly if your whole purpose for getting married was to be with the person you love. 

I think it's much harder to get the feeling of love back when you have lost faith in the person you would be in love with. 

The irony is that the affair is very often a reaction by the WS to being unhappy, the marriage perceived as being the reason whether that perception is correct or not. Yet after the affair is discovered, if they want to keep the marriage they must work much harder at it. That is a big lift, not even addressing the issues they often have that caused them to cheat in the first place.

One thing is for sure if you are a WS you should never assume you are safe. So often we read on here of BS who are seemingly recovered and even have a few good years but eventually come to the conclusion that the affair is just to much to get over. How many times have we read from the BS that not a day goes by where they don't think about the affair, even decades later. Often the WS is blindsided by this. It seems most infidelity works more like a chronic illness that some can live with and less like a wound that be treated and healed.


----------



## midatlanticdad

sokillme said:


> What are you plans? What have you agreed upon?


i asked to move out so i could have space to work on myself. she reluctantly agreed that was ok. we both have been in therapy.

i have lost 37 pounds since july when i started therapy and dealing with my issues. my blood pressure was 167/117 necessitating bp medicine.

i had a drs appointment monday and my bp was 110/70. i was told i could come off of the meds.

We agreed to revisit after new years.

in reality this has given me the time to realize i am ready to pursue divorce and have spoken with an attorney 

i will tell her in the next week or so that the separation is permanent and we need to prepare for the idea of living separate lives

she will have trouble with that as even though she understands im
tentative at best about trying to fix it she wants to try. she will be upset that i do not

we do care for each other but there are a lot of incompatibilities for me


----------



## midatlanticdad

sokillme said:


> So since this came up I read through this thread again to make sure I remembered everything. I think it is illuminating in the fact that some folks are saying that this is one of those situations where the marriage can be saved, and I think in some cases a situation like this, it's true.
> 
> I think what is often missing in this discussion is that when there is abuse in relationships of the kind that adultery is, where it causes great trauma, this very often causes the spouse that was abused to eventually lose, respect and finally faith in the abusive spouse, even in the relationship.
> 
> This can also eventually erode the love for that abusive spouse to the point where it goes away. In those cases for many, the marriage isn't worth saving. Very often this is what the BS is really dealing with thought they fail to articulate it. Often the focus seems to be on the structure of the marriage or even the current relationship, but not in the context of love. I think for some if you don't love the person and they abused you in the past, the marriage even if the current day to day partnership is good, is just not worth it, particularly if your whole purpose for getting married was to be with the person you love.
> 
> I think it's much harder to get the feeling of love back when you have lost faith in the person you would be in love with.
> 
> The irony is that the affair is very often a reaction by the WS to being unhappy, the marriage perceived as being the reason whether that perception is correct or not. Yet after the affair is discovered, if they want to keep the marriage they must work much harder at it. That is a big lift, not even addressing the issues they often have that caused them to cheat in the first place.
> 
> One thing is for sure if you are a WS you should never assume you are safe. So often we read on here of BS who are seemingly recovered and even have a few good years but eventually come to the conclusion that the affair is just to much to get over. How many times have we read from the BS that not a day goes by where they don't think about the affair, even decades later. Often the WS is blindsided by this. It seems most infidelity works more like a chronic illness that some can live with and less like a wound that be treated and healed.


thank you for the thoughtful post

it was too much for me and in reality i see that i was waiting for kids to get old enough to really embrace it this possibility


----------



## sokillme

midatlanticdad said:


> i asked to move out so i could have space to work on myself. she reluctantly agreed that was ok. we both have been in therapy.
> 
> i have lost 37 pounds since july when i started therapy and dealing with my issues. my blood pressure was 167/117 necessitating bp medicine.
> 
> i had a drs appointment monday and my bp was 110/70. i was told i could come off of the meds.
> 
> We agreed to revisit after new years.
> 
> in reality this has given me the time to realize i am ready to pursue divorce and have spoken with an attorney
> 
> i will tell her in the next week or so that the separation is permanent and we need to prepare for the idea of living separate lives
> 
> she will have trouble with that as even though she understands im
> tentative at best about trying to fix it she wants to try. she will be upset that i do not
> 
> we do care for each other but there are a lot of incompatibilities for me


Maybe you should wait until after the holidays assuming you will be celebrating them. You don't want this to be a trigger every time them come up especially when it comes to your kids.


----------



## midatlanticdad

Openminded said:


> And what are you hoping?


im ready to move on. im hoping she can accept that and focus on her needs and wants


----------



## Openminded

I hope that as well. But I’m not sure she’ll give up so easily.

I was in R for a very long time but it just never felt right. One day my suspicions were confirmed. I thought, after being caught twice, that my ex-husband would be glad to move on. But no. He fought the divorce right up to the moment he married his new girlfriend (not his AP) which was about five minutes after the final decree was signed. My story is the reason I‘m not a supporter of R. Some work out but a lot don’t. That broken bond is really tough to fix.

I wish you the very best going forward. I think you will be very happy with your new life.


----------



## midatlanticdad

Openminded said:


> I hope that as well. But I’m not sure she’ll give up so easily.
> 
> I was in R for a very long time but it just never felt right. One day my suspicions were confirmed. I thought, after being caught twice, that my ex-husband would be glad to move on. But no. He fought the divorce right up to the moment he married his new girlfriend (not his AP) which was about five minutes after the final decree was signed. My story is the reason I‘m not a supporter of R. Some work out but a lot don’t. That broken bond is really tough to fix.
> 
> I wish you the very best going forward. I think you will be very happy with your new life.


i think you may be right.

that's crazy he fought for you and then married immediatly. that doesn't seem normal lol. how long ago was this and are they still married?

thanks - i think i will be happy. I'm starting to feel like my old self again. I do hope my wife will be happy to.


----------



## Thumos

notmyjamie said:


> never cheated but there were times I did not care for my husband very much and if given the chance to vent my frustrations with him I could have said some very unflattering things. I did love him though, very much. Just because I didn't like every aspect of him doesn't mean I didn't love him.


I was just catching up here and caught this in the thread. Interesting thing here: I don’t know of very many BH’s who went around trashing their WW’s to others, either before or after their WW’s cheated on them. It’s a fascinating thing. Even in all my convos IRL with close confidantes in the wake of being betrayed, I still haven’t trashed my WW. in fact I’ve gone out of my way to do the opposite. I find it strange how so many wives feel free or the need to trash their husbands to their girlfriends. This seems to be more prevalent.


----------



## sokillme

Thumos said:


> I was just catching up here and caught this in the thread. Interesting thing here: I don’t know of very many BH’s who went around trashing their WW’s to others, either before or after their WW’s cheated on them. It’s a fascinating thing. Even in all my convos IRL with close confidantes in the wake of being betrayed, I still haven’t trashed my WW. in fact I’ve gone out of my way to do the opposite. I find it strange how so many wives feel free or the need to trash their husbands to their girlfriends. This seems to be more prevalent.


I think some of this can be attributed to how we historically see our roles, and yes I know this is considered passé but I think some of this is built into us. Men and particularly husbands feel very protective of their wives, so I don't think it is for many of us this would be natural. We know WWs are already inclined to be entitled right, they're cheaters, so is it any surprise that they are also vocal about it? I also think women are generally share more with their friends on an emotional level to begin with, and ****ty disloyal women probably share in a ****ty way.

Plus I would bet cheating husbands bash their wives all the time too.


----------



## Openminded

midatlanticdad said:


> i think you may be right.
> 
> that's crazy he fought for you and then married immediatly. that doesn't seem normal lol. how long ago was this and are they still married?
> 
> thanks - i think i will be happy. I'm starting to feel like my old self again. I do hope my wife will be happy to.


Yeah, it certainly was a crazy time (years ago now). He couldn’t stand the idea of being alone so he immediately lined up Wife #2. Being free of all that was worth everything I went through to get there. I hope it will be for you as well.


----------



## notmyjamie

Thumos said:


> I was just catching up here and caught this in the thread. Interesting thing here: I don’t know of very many BH’s who went around trashing their WW’s to others, either before or after their WW’s cheated on them. It’s a fascinating thing. Even in all my convos IRL with close confidantes in the wake of being betrayed, I still haven’t trashed my WW. in fact I’ve gone out of my way to do the opposite. I find it strange how so many wives feel free or the need to trash their husbands to their girlfriends. This seems to be more prevalent.


Well, to be clear I didn’t trash my exH to anyone either. Venting to my sister that he makes me crazy when he leaves his crap everywhere or when he brings home junk food for the kids is not something I consider trashing him. In fact, when I caught him cheating, with strange men no less, I kept that information to myself for 15 years. He’s out now but he did that himself, I did not tell his secrets as they weren’t mine to tell.


----------



## LisaDiane

sokillme said:


> I think what is often missing in this discussion is that when there is abuse in relationships of the kind that adultery is, where it causes great trauma, *this very often causes the spouse that was abused to eventually lose, respect and finally faith in the abusive spouse, even in the relationship.*
> 
> This can also eventually erode the love for that abusive spouse to the point where it goes away. In those cases for many, the marriage isn't worth saving. Very often this is what the BS is really dealing with thought they fail to articulate it. Often the focus seems to be on the structure of the marriage or even the current relationship, but not in the context of love. I think for some if you don't love the person and they abused you in the past, the marriage even if the current day to day partnership is good, is just not worth it, particularly if your whole purpose for getting married was to be with the person you love.
> 
> I think it's much harder to get the feeling of love back when you have lost faith in the person you would be in love with.


This is SO well-said, and works exactly like this from my experience (which didn't include cheating)...GREAT post!!!


----------



## sokillme

LisaDiane said:


> This is SO well-said, and works exactly like this from my experience (which didn't include cheating)...GREAT post!!!


Love is a delicate thing, in some ways it's a miracle but you must not take it for granted. When you are lucky enough to have someone commit their life to you, you need to earn it.


----------



## Lakesparrow

midatlanticdad said:


> Background:
> 
> Wife and i were married 20 years ago, and have two wonderful children, who are teens. She is very attractive and we were deeply in love. We were in our early 20s when married, and she loved the idea of starting a family. It became clear early on, i would take up the fight to provide for our family, and she would primarily raise the kids, and keep the household, with a plan of working when/where she could to supplement.
> 
> I am not afraid of working, and wanted very much to provide for my family. I worked full time, went to school at nite to finish up a bachelors degree, and dove headfirst into a rental property. Fast forward to year 12 of marriage, and i was stressed out, not home much, but on a very lucrative career path.
> 
> Our daily lives were so different, we didn't appreciate the others struggles. She wanted me to listen and understand her struggles, and being under a lot of stress to produce at work, i wasn't very sympathetic or understanding (even though i tried to be). Resentment grew on both sides, and she was quite nasty to me. I tried to make it up with promises of things getting easier and bigger house, nice car etc.
> 
> in the winter of 2012, i stumbled upon her FB account and found that she had reached out to an old boyfriend, the one that got away and broke her heart by cheating on her. Very handsome guy, and single. I was able to guess her password, and monitored their communications for weeks, all the while dying inside and wondering what i did to deserve this. I also found text messages between her and her cousin (very close like sisters) absolutely shredding me, that i was gross, and annoying.
> 
> i was a mess already - struggling at work bc of the demands placed on me, unable to sleep through the nite, finding myself medicating with alcohol inappropriately etc. I wanted help from my wife, and support/understanding - instead she turned elsewhere.
> 
> The messages went from playful banter, to flirting, to graphic sexual conversations, to arranging a meeting. I was determined to let the meeting happen and then confront her, and end the marriage. I was heartbroken, but desperate to find the right way out of it. They hadn't arranged an actual meeting place, and i couldn't wait any longer. In the middle of the night, i woke her (sleeping soundly as i laid quietly next to her in agonizing pain) and revealed i knew what she was up to.
> 
> At first, her reaction was quiet, i think she was trying to figure out what to say. Early on, her she seemed to think it was wrong, but no big deal. Over the following weeks i agonized with what to do. I ultimately determined that even though i had been betrayed, i couldn't yet give up on our relationship mostly for the kids sake, if we could reconcile. Without going into all the details, over the last 8 years, we went through many lows (including behavior on my part - developed a real drinking problem, which i'm past but did cause some problems, being absent, having a hard time being close) to a place now where i've forgiven her, our household is in good order, we parent well together get along fine, and i believe she truly regrets her actions. Over the years, there were periods where i had completely moved past it, but deep down, i knew she got to a place where she did not care about me and wanted someone else. That has never left me, and today, i know that i cannot go back.
> 
> My problem, and ultimately my question, is what to do given that her betrayal caused me to close a door - i couldnt let her in, even though i tried. We care about each other, support each other, can laugh together, but i have a black hole where the love should be. She believes we have moved past it. I have come to the realization that i'll never be able to love her as i should, and that's not good for either of us. Truly, i think she does love me, but not like she wants to. She wants a deep intimacy, and to be adored, and i'm unable to give her that even though i have tried (early on I could, after the betrayal i cannot)
> 
> Her guilt over acting out, and fear over what might happen, keep her in it, and I believe she thinks we have good marriage. We don't fight and are in sync on our daily lives. I don't think she wants to start over, but i'm not OK with both of us missing out on life.
> 
> My mission is to figure out how to have conversations where we both can be honest , and get her to start thinking about what she wants. I will not abandon her or the kids, and i will continue to provide as i have for the last 20 years. My daughter is a freshman in highschool, and i can support the household until she's out of college. I can stay at the home, or move nearby with my widowed stepmother.
> 
> Has anyone been in a similar situation, and what were your results, good or bad?


You didn't treasure her before and she almost stepped out and you don't treasure her now. So...nothing has changed for her. She's probably still doing your laundry, keeping up your home and doing math homework w the kids and you're still detached. 

Sorry....but you've got her by the guilt straps now. She feels bad about her emotional affair and so she deals w your alcoholism and emotional neglect while dying inside and feeling like she deserves it. 

Meanwhile you can't adore her? Let's at least admit that if you had been more adoring and present another guy wouldn't have been able to put a bug in her ear that you didn't want her or treasure her and he did. 

My husband had a full blown affair and I was still giving him blow jobs, giving him my ft paycheck, cooking his dinner and taking the kids to track. Men take you for granted when they think they've secured you. They **** around for different reasons than women. And they rarely see what pains in the asses they are. My step dad was a drunk and while I dealt w an affair alcoholic behaviors would have been an automatic take the kids and divorce him moment for me. 

Maybe you should look a little more closely at your wife. Because you're not seeing what there is to adore about her, and that's your fail.


----------



## Thumos

Lakesparrow said:


> Meanwhile you can't adore her? Let's at least admit that if you had been more adoring and present another guy wouldn't have been able to put a bug in her ear that you didn't want her or treasure her and he did.


Absolutely 100 percent false. We know this is false because many women who are neglected by their husbands remain faithful. This is insulting to the many faithful women in the world. It is also one of the most pervasive myths about adultery that has been debunked, even by apologists like Esther Perel. The literature around adultery is increasingly finding that infidelity seems to happen more often in good marriages than not.


----------



## Thumos

Lakesparrow said:


> Because you're not seeing what there is to adore about her, and that's your fail.


Cheaters aren’t adorable


----------



## Lakesparrow

Thumos said:


> Cheaters aren’t adorable


He said things weren't good before. And also you can love and adore someone who cheated. I have. It has been ten years and I adored him. He's a good man and has good traits and he was my person. It took a hell of a lot more than an affair for things to decline like they have. Yeah affairs suck but they don't turn a person into garbage.


----------



## sokillme

Lakesparrow said:


> You didn't treasure her before and she almost stepped out and you don't treasure her now. So...nothing has changed for her. She's probably still doing your laundry, keeping up your home and doing math homework w the kids and you're still detached.
> 
> Sorry....but you've got her by the guilt straps now. She feels bad about her emotional affair and so she deals w your alcoholism and emotional neglect while dying inside and feeling like she deserves it.
> 
> Meanwhile you can't adore her? Let's at least admit that if you had been more adoring and present another guy wouldn't have been able to put a bug in her ear that you didn't want her or treasure her and he did.


So there is a lot of projection in this post. What I find interesting is you have much more sympathy for the cheating wife as a wife, then a human being who was cheated on even though, since you say yourself you were cheated on you would think you might have some empathy and understanding what that is like. 

Honestly your post reads like, -- _You should just suffer and take it because men suck and it's hard to be a wife. _

It seems it's easier for you to empathize with someone of the same gender. That is the only reason I can see for this take. 



> Men take you for granted when they think they've secured you. They **** around for different reasons than women. And they rarely see what pains in the asses they are. My step dad was a drunk and while I dealt w an affair alcoholic behaviors would have been an automatic take the kids and divorce him moment for me.


This is a pretty big tell. Not to say the men you have been around might have done that but to say "men" in general is just wrong. OP stayed with his wife and tried to make it work, a lot more then many would do. I think the abusive men you have been around have shaped your opinion about all of them. Like I always say on here, never judge an entire gender by the worst of them.

Seems your take is - Wives are always victims even when they cheat. 



Lakesparrow said:


> My husband had a full blown affair and I was still giving him blow jobs, giving him my ft paycheck, cooking his dinner and taking the kids to track. Men take you for granted when they think they've secured you. They **** around for different reasons than women. And they rarely see what pains in the asses they are. My step dad was a drunk and while I dealt w an affair alcoholic behaviors would have been an automatic take the kids and divorce him moment for me.
> 
> Maybe you should look a little more closely at your wife. Because you're not seeing what there is to adore about her, and that's your fail.


There is nothing noble about continuing to allowing someone to abuse you. I wonder given it seems like you grew up in this environment this kind of dysfunction was modeled for you. This is not a healthy example to follow though. 

I think if you ever met a good man you might be surprised.


----------



## sokillme

Lakesparrow said:


> He said things weren't good before. And also you can love and adore someone who cheated. I have. It has been ten years and I adored him. He's a good man and has good traits and he was my person. It took a hell of a lot more than an affair for things to decline like they have. Yeah affairs suck but they don't turn a person into garbage.


Well by their nature affairs are abusive and done by people who operate at the peak of selfishness. Which makes people who commit them useless when it comes to the type of partnership marriage requires to make one good and productive. The people who do this provide no happiness to your life in the long run, only pain. Very much like garbage. If you leave it lying around and your life suffers for it. 

The point is cheaters are worthless, when it comes to romantic relationships and you are better off without them.

You seem to have a very high tolerance, and it's good it worked out for you, though you seem to be projecting your husbands cruelty onto all husbands. 

Divorcing someone who cheated on you is always a reasonable and should be the expected choice.


----------



## Lakesparrow

What I'm hearing is that you have experienced an affair which was very traumatic and which gave you an all or none mentality about people who have committed an affair. Your trauma response is to make it cut and dry, cheaters are always bad people or are the bad one. Period. I don't blame you for seeing it this way. It's a cut and dry way to discard all of the other factors involved, and move on without the pain and agony of a critical evaluation of the whole picture. In a huge way I see you as the lucky one for having the capacity to see such a thing as black and white. It's much harder for those of us hashing it out in the grey area.


----------



## Lakesparrow

sokillme said:


> So there is a lot of projection in this post. What I find interesting is you have much more sympathy for the cheating wife as a wife, then a human being who was cheated on even though, since you say yourself you were cheated on you would think you might have some empathy and understanding what that is like.
> 
> Honestly your post reads like, -- _You should just suffer and take it because men suck and it's hard to be a wife. _
> 
> It seems it's easier for you to empathize with someone of the same gender. That is the only reason I can see for this take.
> 
> 
> 
> This is a pretty big tell. Not to say the men you have been around might have done that but to say "men" in general is just wrong. OP stayed with his wife and tried to make it work, a lot more then many would do. I think the abusive men you have been around have shaped your opinion about all of them. Like I always say on here, never judge an entire gender by the worst of them.
> 
> Seems your take is - Wives are always victims even when they cheat.
> 
> 
> 
> There is nothing noble about continuing to allowing someone to abuse you. I wonder given it seems like you grew up in this environment this kind of dysfunction was modeled for you. This is not a healthy example to follow though.
> 
> I think if you ever met a good man you might be surprised.


Essentially both people in this relationship according to the writer, had a lot of neglect and a plethora of abuse going towards one another. Neither was perfect and neither was right. But if both don't admit to their **** ups....and just move on....odds are they will repeat them in their next relationships. I don't care who cheated. Both parties if they stay together, need to admit to their **** ups and grow from them or they'll never grow together. Honestly ten years later the affair my husband had isn't the be all and end all of who he is as a person. I grew a lot from it. Which was a choice. I also chose to count the good things he did instead of counting coup. Which was a choice. I do believe men and women often "affair" from different places. But they all make excuses that suck. And betrayed spouses often think that they were the perfect spouse and point out how great they were rather than admitting their garbage that contributed to the downfall of their relationship. You appear to be determined to identify a blame game that's simply not there, in your thesis of my comments. Which I won't return in kind.


----------



## sokillme

OP doesn't want to stay together


Lakesparrow said:


> What I'm hearing is that you have experienced an affair which was very traumatic and which gave you an all or none mentality about people who have committed an affair. Your trauma response is to make it cut and dry, cheaters are always bad people or are the bad one. Period. I don't blame you for seeing it this way. It's a cut and dry way to discard all of the other factors involved, and move on without the pain and agony of a critical evaluation of the whole picture. In a huge way I see you as the lucky one for having the capacity to see such a thing as black and white. It's much harder for those of us hashing it out in the grey area.


If this is directed to me I will respond. It's really not so much good or bad people it's is what people offer to you in a marriage. Cheaters by there actions and their nature don't offer much. Now there are those who say their marriage is great after the fact, and maybe for .001% it's true, but for the others what are they comparing it to? Very often these people don't have other relationship experience to put their current one into context. Let's be honest most people really stay because of fear, and there are the unfortunate ones who can't afford to leave, sadly, which is sad and a shame, a shame that all of them were not empowered to leave and have better lives.



Lakesparrow said:


> Essentially both people in this relationship according to the writer, had a lot of neglect and a plethora of abuse going towards one another. Neither was perfect and neither was right. But if both don't admit to their *** ups....and just move on....odds are they will repeat them in their next relationships. I don't care who cheated. Both parties if they stay together, need to admit to their *** ups and grow from them or they'll never grow together. Honestly ten years later the affair my husband had isn't the be all and end all of who he is as a person. I grew a lot from it. Which was a choice. I also chose to count the good things he did instead of counting coup. Which was a choice. I do believe men and women often "affair" from different places. But they all make excuses that suck. And betrayed spouses often think that they were the perfect spouse and point out how great they were rather than admitting their garbage that contributed to the downfall of their relationship. You appear to be determined to identify a blame game that's simply not there, in your thesis of my comments. Which I won't return in kind.


I am not determined to identify a blame, I am saying clearly she cheated on him and destroyed the marriage. Did the both contribute to the problems in the marriage, sure like every marriage, but only one of them broke their vows therefor invalidating the contract. It's not rocket science. Besides that, adultery is abuse, just like physical abuse. There is no moral argument to be made to justify any abuse in marriage. To say anything else is just blaming the victim which is very wrong, in the same way it's wrong to say it's OK for a man to punch his wife because she mouthed off at him.

You seriously can't really be comparing working so hard for your families financial security that you are emotionally inattentive, to having phone sex and complaining about your husband to your boyfriend right? Let's just look at their motive, his was for his family even if his execution was wrong, hers was the opposite, only for herself with no thought at all for even her own children and what an affair would do to them. I mean the two things are not remotely alike, lets have some perspective here. And I am well aware that he was wrong because a husband's job is to be an emotional provider too, but she nuked the relationship and sometimes there is no coming back from that.

You are operating under a false premise. He doesn't owe her anything. She cheated on him and broke her vows, disrespecting him in the process. At that point the contract was void and he is well with in his rights to leave. He gave it a shot but he couldn't live with it. Neither his word nor his honor requires him to stay, and he has no moral obligation because she didn't honor her word. This was the risk she was willing to take and these are her consequences.

I swear your posts read like your his wife.

It needs to be said often so it's understood. Particularly in today's day and age at least in the 1st world where women are on longer financially dependent on their husbands. The reasonable and standard course of action when there is abuse in the marriage, like adultery, should be divorce. Period stop. Now you can stay if you want, but the it's not immoral to divorce. Frankly if the abuse is ongoing and or horrific enough it is immoral to stay.


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## Lakesparrow

You are operating under the "false premise" that your viewpoint is the only correct viewpoint.


----------



## sokillme

Lakesparrow said:


> You are operating under the "false premise" that your viewpoint is the only correct viewpoint.


Ha, whatever. OP is the only one that matters and he is done.


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## Lakesparrow

Thumos said:


> Cheaters aren’t adorable


And betrayed spouses aren't perfect. And getting cheated on doesn't give you free license to use someone or be cruel.


----------



## sokillme

Lakesparrow said:


> And betrayed spouses aren't perfect. And getting cheated on doesn't give you free license to use someone or be cruel.


No one here is being cruel. You need some prospective.


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## Thumos

Lakesparrow said:


> And betrayed spouses aren't perfect. And getting cheated on doesn't give you free license to use someone or be cruel.


This is called a straw man argument.


----------



## Thumos

Lakesparrow said:


> And betrayed spouses aren't perfect.


Odd line of reasoning. Almost none of the victims of all of the major transgressions throughout human history have been perfect. Adultery is an act of abuse. I’d warrant most victims of abuse aren’t perfect. This does nothing at all to ameliorate the act of abuse itself.


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## paboy

I have enjoyed reading Lake Sparrows thoughts. And for any chance of a successful reconciliation, it requires the both of you to give your 120o/o.


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## sokillme

Do you guys read the post? OP doesn't want reconciliation he moved out.

The affair killed the marriage.


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## Lakesparrow

sokillme said:


> No one here is being cruel. You need some prospective.


I'd say reconciling for ten years has given me perspective on a lot of levels you have not explored.


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## paboy

Yes I have read that he has moved out. And yes that gets him out of infidelity. Him having options moving forward, and other perspectives, should always be a consideration.


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## Evinrude58

I haven’t read the whole thread, but I’m my opinion, I seriously doubt OP’s wife cares for him other than a wallet. She will miss the wallet, not him. He read her truest thoughts about him and is rightly carrying his butt and I think that’s his only hope for happiness.

I also don’t think it’s fair for a man to work his butt off and provide a nice life, and receive in turn what his wife gave him.

she stopped loving him when she gave her emotions to another man.

Bravo OP in having the self confidence and discipline to do the hard thing to make your life better. I don’t have to imagine your anguish. You are right to leave. Never look back.


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## midatlanticdad

Just an update

Been out 2 1/2 months. Had the divorce discussion w/ wife and kids. It has been hard, a lot of regret on all sides. 

I am starting to heal and be less lonely although its tough. She is working on herself and thinking about career options. We have discussed financial support at a very high level, no plans on changing anything for the kids until kids out of high school (4 yrs). That will require contributions on both our parts, but we should be able to do it.

My biggest takeaway is to fight for the relationship early on. We didn't do that.


----------



## manfromlamancha

It is interesting that some months ago you did a comparison of the reasons to stay vs the reasons to leave and you did not list that you loved her as a reason to stay (you listed kids etc as reasons to stay). How did you go from loving her (regardless of her feelings toward you) to not loving her? Was it based on what she said about you to her sister (that has already been explained by someone else as possibly needing to justify her affair and not truly what she feels)?

When did you suddenly decide that being out of this marriage was best for you?


----------



## sokillme

midatlanticdad said:


> Just an update
> 
> Been out 2 1/2 months. Had the divorce discussion w/ wife and kids. It has been hard, a lot of regret on all sides.
> 
> I am starting to heal and be less lonely although its tough. She is working on herself and thinking about career options. We have discussed financial support at a very high level, no plans on changing anything for the kids until kids out of high school (4 yrs). That will require contributions on both our parts, but we should be able to do it.
> 
> My biggest takeaway is to fight for the relationship early on. We didn't do that.


My biggest takeaway is don't cheat. Even if it is just emotionally.


----------



## sokillme

manfromlamancha said:


> It is interesting that some months ago you did a comparison of the reasons to stay vs the reasons to leave and you did not list that you loved her as a reason to stay (you listed kids etc as reasons to stay). How did you go from loving her (regardless of her feelings toward you) to not loving her? Was it based on what she said about you to her sister (that has already been explained by someone else as possibly needing to justify her affair and not truly what she feels)?
> 
> When did you suddenly decide that being out of this marriage was best for you?


There is nothing in the initial post that indicates the decision came about suddenly. Seems more like this has been a festering wound that destroyed his love for her. Seems pretty typical.


----------



## midatlanticdad

manfromlamancha said:


> It is interesting that some months ago you did a comparison of the reasons to stay vs the reasons to leave and you did not list that you loved her as a reason to stay (you listed kids etc as reasons to stay). How did you go from loving her (regardless of her feelings toward you) to not loving her? Was it based on what she said about you to her sister (that has already been explained by someone else as possibly needing to justify her affair and not truly what she feels)?
> 
> When did you suddenly decide that being out of this marriage was best for you?


i loved her very much and despite my apparent neglect of her needs, never doubted my feelings or committment. It took about 3 years after her stepping outside of the marriage for me to fully close that door. To me, committment is the last thing you would sacrifice in a marriage or relationship. Once you do that, you have given up on the relationship. At least in my world, that's how it works. Once i knew she didn't want me as a lover, didn't care about my feelings, and was willing to lie and pretend we were committed to each other, it affected my ability to love her. It changed what we could be. 

There are other aspects to our relationship that also were challenging (as most couples have) that once it was all added up, i couldn't escape the conclusion that here is a person that doesn't REALLY care about me, respect me or value my love and committment. I could never escape that viscious cycle.

Judge if you must, those are my values.


----------



## midatlanticdad

sokillme said:


> There is nothing in the initial post that indicates the decision came about suddenly. Seems more like this has been a festering wound that destroyed his love for her. Seems pretty typical.


correct. it took about 3 years to erode fully


----------



## sokillme

midatlanticdad said:


> i loved her very much and despite my apparent neglect of her needs, never doubted my feelings or committment. It took about 3 years after her stepping outside of the marriage for me to fully close that door. To me, committment is the last thing you would sacrifice in a marriage or relationship. Once you do that, you have given up on the relationship. At least in my world, that's how it works. Once i knew she didn't want me as a lover, didn't care about my feelings, and was willing to lie and pretend we were committed to each other, it affected my ability to love her. It changed what we could be.
> 
> There are other aspects to our relationship that also were challenging (as most couples have) that once it was all added up, i couldn't escape the conclusion that here is a person that doesn't REALLY care about me, respect me or value my love and committment. I could never escape that viscious cycle.
> 
> Judge if you must, those are my values.


I think for some of us we just don't believe in love without loyalty. So when you lose confidence that your spouse is loyal you also lose confidence in the fact that they truly love you or that they even understand love the way you do. When that happens the illusion dies as does your love. 

Not everyone cares that much about loyalty but some of us just don't believe in love without it.


----------



## midatlanticdad

Thought i'd post an update. Now 11 mos after leaving the house, we have filed for divorce (paperwork pending in PA). shoudl be final before year end.

WE both are doing much better. I have an apartment by myself now, with a spare bedroom that my teens can come visit me and stay in. they have been coming one at a time, if they both come, i'll sleep on the couch. 

i told her a few weeks ago that i was starting to date. She was pretty upset at that and reacted negatively, but basically put it past her. 

i have been spending time with someone from my past who i have an amazing time with. its complicated of course, but enjoying the time together.

it seems my STBX is no where near ready to put herself out there. i guess i really was checked out bc it was relatively easy for me to look elsewhere. She did tell me recnetly that things have been better since i left, in that she is working on herself and in many ways, doing better than she was.

i've lost 35 lbs, and go to the gym regularly. i'm focused on trying to maintain a good reltionship with my kids - i think this is hard on them. my son seems fine, i think its tough on my daughter. I do worry about our relationship, and i think she feels i abandoned her mother. she will likely never know why.

Will pop in periodically to update. I am hopeful that my story will be helpful to others in my position. I feel better now than i have in many years.


----------



## gr8ful1

midatlanticdad said:


> I do worry about our relationship, and i think she feels i abandoned her mother. she will likely never know why.


Just curious, why don’t you tell your daughter an age-appropriate version of what your STBX did?


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## Galabar01

From what I've seen, the only, even mildly, successful reconciliation requires the cheater to take 100% responsibility for the cheating without blaming the betrayed partner in any way.

She wasn't willing or able to do that and, ironically, neither were you.

If you are ever cheated on again, realize that it isn't your fault.


----------



## Rob_1

midatlanticdad said:


> she will likely never know why.


Supposedly you stayed in the marriage for the kids (a cowardly behavior in my opinion), and now your daughter will most likely never know the truth (another cowardly behavior). You most likely are condemning your daughter to have a lifelong unjustified resentment toward you; which it will manifest in the way she views men in general.

Why, I mean why can't you tell her the truth? do you think she's some kind of tender fragile flower that won't be able to handle things that life throws at her? this is part of the problem with today's kids, parents that are so overprotective of them that in the end they make their kids good for nothing. Today's kids never seen a dead person, never known what hunger means, etc. You prefer that her relationship with you gets strained rather than setting the record straight with her? what gives here. what kind of mentality do you have to think that is OK to hide things from the kids that they should know so that they can make their own informed judgment and opinion as to the situation. People wake up, we are doing a disservice to our children with this overprotective and morally flawed behavior toward them.


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## Openminded

Thanks for the update. It’s always good to hear how people have rebuilt their lives afterward.


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## manowar

midatlanticdad said:


> i told her a few weeks ago that i was starting to date. *She was pretty upset at that and reacted negatively*, but basically put it past her.



Women don't like it when your resources are diverted elsewhere. Dude -- do not fall into the Provider trap in any new relationship.


----------



## JLCP

notmyjamie said:


> I'm sorry...I wasn't very clear...I don't believe you can do that to someone you truly love either. But, I do believe people make things worse in order to justify cheating. So if she had been objective at the time and wasn't engaged in cheating, she may have not said as much or as hurtful things as she did.
> 
> I think people who cheat convince themselves of a lot of crap to justify it. So she may have convinced herself she was not in love with you anymore so she'd be able to do what she did...that's rewriting history as well. Once the affair was revealed, she realizes she's going to lose you and all of a sudden things aren't as clear in her mind. Sometimes you don't know what you've got until it's gone kind of thing.
> 
> I'm not sure I'm making sense. But, either way, there is NOTHING wrong with you deciding you can't stay married to her because of her betrayal, even if it was years ago. I left my exH 14 years after I learned of his betrayal. I finally decided that standing alone would be better than standing next to someone who is supposed to love you and want you and doesn't.


Very well said. I saved your response under the title of "How Cheaters Justify It".


----------



## jonty30

midatlanticdad said:


> Background:
> 
> Wife and i were married 20 years ago, and have two wonderful children, who are teens. She is very attractive and we were deeply in love. We were in our early 20s when married, and she loved the idea of starting a family. It became clear early on, i would take up the fight to provide for our family, and she would primarily raise the kids, and keep the household, with a plan of working when/where she could to supplement.
> 
> I am not afraid of working, and wanted very much to provide for my family. I worked full time, went to school at nite to finish up a bachelors degree, and dove headfirst into a rental property. Fast forward to year 12 of marriage, and i was stressed out, not home much, but on a very lucrative career path.
> 
> Our daily lives were so different, we didn't appreciate the others struggles. She wanted me to listen and understand her struggles, and being under a lot of stress to produce at work, i wasn't very sympathetic or understanding (even though i tried to be). Resentment grew on both sides, and she was quite nasty to me. I tried to make it up with promises of things getting easier and bigger house, nice car etc.
> 
> in the winter of 2012, i stumbled upon her FB account and found that she had reached out to an old boyfriend, the one that got away and broke her heart by cheating on her. Very handsome guy, and single. I was able to guess her password, and monitored their communications for weeks, all the while dying inside and wondering what i did to deserve this. I also found text messages between her and her cousin (very close like sisters) absolutely shredding me, that i was gross, and annoying.
> 
> i was a mess already - struggling at work bc of the demands placed on me, unable to sleep through the nite, finding myself medicating with alcohol inappropriately etc. I wanted help from my wife, and support/understanding - instead she turned elsewhere.
> 
> The messages went from playful banter, to flirting, to graphic sexual conversations, to arranging a meeting. I was determined to let the meeting happen and then confront her, and end the marriage. I was heartbroken, but desperate to find the right way out of it. They hadn't arranged an actual meeting place, and i couldn't wait any longer. In the middle of the night, i woke her (sleeping soundly as i laid quietly next to her in agonizing pain) and revealed i knew what she was up to.
> 
> At first, her reaction was quiet, i think she was trying to figure out what to say. Early on, her she seemed to think it was wrong, but no big deal. Over the following weeks i agonized with what to do. I ultimately determined that even though i had been betrayed, i couldn't yet give up on our relationship mostly for the kids sake, if we could reconcile. Without going into all the details, over the last 8 years, we went through many lows (including behavior on my part - developed a real drinking problem, which i'm past but did cause some problems, being absent, having a hard time being close) to a place now where i've forgiven her, our household is in good order, we parent well together get along fine, and i believe she truly regrets her actions. Over the years, there were periods where i had completely moved past it, but deep down, i knew she got to a place where she did not care about me and wanted someone else. That has never left me, and today, i know that i cannot go back.
> 
> My problem, and ultimately my question, is what to do given that her betrayal caused me to close a door - i couldnt let her in, even though i tried. We care about each other, support each other, can laugh together, but i have a black hole where the love should be. She believes we have moved past it. I have come to the realization that i'll never be able to love her as i should, and that's not good for either of us. Truly, i think she does love me, but not like she wants to. She wants a deep intimacy, and to be adored, and i'm unable to give her that even though i have tried (early on I could, after the betrayal i cannot)
> 
> Her guilt over acting out, and fear over what might happen, keep her in it, and I believe she thinks we have good marriage. We don't fight and are in sync on our daily lives. I don't think she wants to start over, but i'm not OK with both of us missing out on life.
> 
> My mission is to figure out how to have conversations where we both can be honest , and get her to start thinking about what she wants. I will not abandon her or the kids, and i will continue to provide as i have for the last 20 years. My daughter is a freshman in highschool, and i can support the household until she's out of college. I can stay at the home, or move nearby with my widowed stepmother.
> 
> Has anyone been in a similar situation, and what were your results, good or bad?


If you're staying for the kids, that's fine. 

Tell the wife that she has to be willing to reconnect with you or she is on a deadline for the last one to be 18 and you will leave the marriage, so she better be using that time to learn some job skills. 
Just be honest about things with her, with no apologies. What happens after will happen.


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## Angel wings

midatlanticdad said:


> Background:
> 
> Wife and i were married 20 years ago, and have two wonderful children, who are teens. She is very attractive and we were deeply in love. We were in our early 20s when married, and she loved the idea of starting a family. It became clear early on, i would take up the fight to provide for our family, and she would primarily raise the kids, and keep the household, with a plan of working when/where she could to supplement.
> 
> I am not afraid of working, and wanted very much to provide for my family. I worked full time, went to school at nite to finish up a bachelors degree, and dove headfirst into a rental property. Fast forward to year 12 of marriage, and i was stressed out, not home much, but on a very lucrative career path.
> 
> Our daily lives were so different, we didn't appreciate the others struggles. She wanted me to listen and understand her struggles, and being under a lot of stress to produce at work, i wasn't very sympathetic or understanding (even though i tried to be). Resentment grew on both sides, and she was quite nasty to me. I tried to make it up with promises of things getting easier and bigger house, nice car etc.
> 
> in the winter of 2012, i stumbled upon her FB account and found that she had reached out to an old boyfriend, the one that got away and broke her heart by cheating on her. Very handsome guy, and single. I was able to guess her password, and monitored their communications for weeks, all the while dying inside and wondering what i did to deserve this. I also found text messages between her and her cousin (very close like sisters) absolutely shredding me, that i was gross, and annoying.
> 
> i was a mess already - struggling at work bc of the demands placed on me, unable to sleep through the nite, finding myself medicating with alcohol inappropriately etc. I wanted help from my wife, and support/understanding - instead she turned elsewhere.
> 
> The messages went from playful banter, to flirting, to graphic sexual conversations, to arranging a meeting. I was determined to let the meeting happen and then confront her, and end the marriage. I was heartbroken, but desperate to find the right way out of it. They hadn't arranged an actual meeting place, and i couldn't wait any longer. In the middle of the night, i woke her (sleeping soundly as i laid quietly next to her in agonizing pain) and revealed i knew what she was up to.
> 
> At first, her reaction was quiet, i think she was trying to figure out what to say. Early on, her she seemed to think it was wrong, but no big deal. Over the following weeks i agonized with what to do. I ultimately determined that even though i had been betrayed, i couldn't yet give up on our relationship mostly for the kids sake, if we could reconcile. Without going into all the details, over the last 8 years, we went through many lows (including behavior on my part - developed a real drinking problem, which i'm past but did cause some problems, being absent, having a hard time being close) to a place now where i've forgiven her, our household is in good order, we parent well together get along fine, and i believe she truly regrets her actions. Over the years, there were periods where i had completely moved past it, but deep down, i knew she got to a place where she did not care about me and wanted someone else. That has never left me, and today, i know that i cannot go back.
> 
> My problem, and ultimately my question, is what to do given that her betrayal caused me to close a door - i couldnt let her in, even though i tried. We care about each other, support each other, can laugh together, but i have a black hole where the love should be. She believes we have moved past it. I have come to the realization that i'll never be able to love her as i should, and that's not good for either of us. Truly, i think she does love me, but not like she wants to. She wants a deep intimacy, and to be adored, and i'm unable to give her that even though i have tried (early on I could, after the betrayal i cannot)
> 
> Her guilt over acting out, and fear over what might happen, keep her in it, and I believe she thinks we have good marriage. We don't fight and are in sync on our daily lives. I don't think she wants to start over, but i'm not OK with both of us missing out on life.
> 
> My mission is to figure out how to have conversations where we both can be honest , and get her to start thinking about what she wants. I will not abandon her or the kids, and i will continue to provide as i have for the last 20 years. My daughter is a freshman in highschool, and i can support the household until she's out of college. I can stay at the home, or move nearby with my widowed stepmother.
> 
> Has anyone been in a similar situation, and what were your results, good or bad?


It's not easy going tru something like that but yes you love her but you can't forget yes you forgave her but can't forget you both are friends know so start over get a divorce and take her out on date and see will that bring spark in your heart back dear. Also remember the kids remember how will they react but tell them you and wife love them.


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## SunCMars

lifeistooshort said:


> *One question: how will you feel when she finds someone else? If your answer is anything but a dagger in the heart your marriage is over.*
> 
> I knew I was done with my ex when the thought of him with another didn't much bother me.


Good analogy.


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## Imnobodynew

Angel wings said:


> It's not easy going tru something like that but yes you love her but you can't forget yes you forgave her but can't forget you both are friends know so start over get a divorce and take her out on date and see will that bring spark in your heart back dear. Also remember the kids remember how will they react but tell them you and wife love them.


 He's moved on.


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## Rob_1

Angel wings said:


> It's not easy going tru something like that but yes you love her but you can't forget yes you forgave her but can't forget you both are friends know so start over get a divorce and take her out on date and see will that bring spark in your heart back dear. Also remember the kids remember how will they react but tell them you and wife love them.


Listen it would be a good thing for you if you were to fully read a tread and have some amount of comprehension before you post another of your "love sublime" post, so that you actually know what's going on and give a relevant input.


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