# Question on becoming emotionally self-reliant and self-sufficient



## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

New to this forum, but I've lurked a bit and finally thought I might be able to get some direction from this community.

I've spent a lot of time in the last year or two trying to better understand life and love, and while I've made some progress, I am still struggling, so I thought I might see if anyone else can help me find the answers I'm looking for.

I had what I considered to be a 'perfect' relationship/marriage for almost 15 years. About five or six years ago, everything fell apart between my wife and I, and I've been trying to find my path forward ever since.

One of the biggest issues to come out when things crashed and burned was how needy I was, not just with my wife, but with other people in general. Experiencing a feeling of being 'cut off' or 'disconnected' from others really had an adverse affect on my mental and emotional well-being. Sad to say, I realized just how emotionally attached and dependent I had become, and how damaging that state was not only to myself, but to my marriage and to my family. I think my wife still resents me for my looking to her and our marriage to meet my needs (fair enough).

In all my research, it's clear that I can't look to others or to external circumstances (like marriage or friendships) to get my 'needs' met. I feel like I've made a lot of progress in becoming strong and emotionally independent and self-sufficient, but I still feel like I have a long ways to go, so I thought I'd get some input from those who may have accomplished their own self-sufficiency in life.

How do you maintain a relationship like a marriage without becoming attached or dependent on your spouse? How are you able to keep the distance necessary to ensure that someone like your spouse can't affect your mental or emotional well-being while still having to find a way to work with them every day?

How do you meet your own 'needs' for things that seemingly would require another person, such as friendship, intimacy, or sex? I've done pretty well living on my own, independent from others, but I still can't shake the feelings of loneliness and depression from lack of connection to others (and from a lack of sex)?

Finally, has anyone been truly successful at creating such a solid sense of self-respect and self-worth such that no amount of criticism, negativity, or hostility from your partner can shake your feelings about yourself? Are you able to let their opinion of you slide off your back without causing any pain or hurt, either to yourself or to the marriage? If so, what do you think enabled your ability to achieve that?

My wife has made overtures recently that she would like to connect more (though I'm not sure what that actually involves or looks like), but I've stayed distant, concerned about putting myself in a position where I again could become vulnerable to getting attached to her or dependent on her, which could easily destroy my marriage all over again. 

In addition to personal viewpoints, can anyone recommend any resources that might help me in my journey?

Thanks in advance!


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> New to this forum, but I've lurked a bit and finally thought I might be able to get some direction from this community.
> 
> I've spent a lot of time in the last year or two trying to better understand life and love, and while I've made some progress, I am still struggling, so I thought I might see if anyone else can help me find the answers I'm looking for.
> 
> ...


There is an entire spectrum of behaviors that encompass just the people I have read here in this forum. Some are 180 degrees from me and many are much like me. Where you fit into that spectrum I couldn't begin to guess. I think your talking about self actualization but I'm not sure.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with Maslow's 12 Characteristics of the self-actualized person but it might be a good place to start.

1) Self-actualized people embrace the unknown and the ambiguous.

They are not threatened or afraid of it; instead, they accept it, are comfortable with it and are often attracted by it. They do not cling to the familiar. Maslow quotes Einstein:

“The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious.”

2) They accept themselves, together with all their flaws.

She perceives herself as she is, and not as she would prefer herself to be. With a high level of self-acceptance, she lacks defensiveness, pose or artificiality. Eventually, shortcomings come to be seen not as shortcomings at all, but simply as neutral personal characteristics.

“They can accept their own human nature in the stoic style, with all its shortcomings, with all its discrepancies from the ideal image without feeling real concern [...] One does not complain about water because it is wet, or about rocks because they are hard [...] simply noting and observing what is the case, without either arguing the matter or demanding that it be otherwise.”
Nonetheless, while self-actualized people are accepting of shortcomings that are immutable, they do feel ashamed or regretful about changeable deficits and bad habits.

3) They prioritize and enjoy the journey, not just the destination.

“[They] often [regard] as ends in themselves many experiences and activities that are, for other people, only means. Our subjects are somewhat more likely to appreciate for its own sake, and in an absolute way, the doing itself; they can often enjoy for its, own sake the getting to some place as well as the arriving. It is occasionally possible for them to make out of the most trivial and routine activity an intrinsically enjoyable game or dance or play.”

4) While they are inherently unconventional, they do not seek to shock or disturb.

Unlike the average rebel, the self-actualized person recognizes:

“... the world of people in which he lives could not understand or accept [his unconventionality], and since he has no wish to hurt them or to fight with them over every triviality, he will go through the ceremonies and rituals of convention with a good-humored shrug and with the best possible grace [... Self-actualized people would] usually behave in a conventional fashion simply because no great issues are involved or because they know people will be hurt or embarrassed by any other kind of behavior.”

*5) They are motivated by growth, not by the satisfaction of needs.
While most people are still struggling in the lower rungs of the ‘Hierarchy of Needs,’ the self-actualized person is focused on personal growth.*

*“Our subjects no longer strive in the ordinary sense, but rather develop. They attempt to grow to perfection and to develop more and more fully in their own style. The motivation of ordinary men is a striving for the basic need gratifications that they lack.”
*
6) Self-actualized people have purpose.

“[They have] some mission in life, some task to fulfill, some problem outside themselves which enlists much of their energies. [...] This is not necessarily a task that they would prefer or choose for themselves; it may be a task that they feel is their responsibility, duty, or obligation. [...] In general these tasks are nonpersonal or unselfish, concerned rather with the good of mankind in general.”

7) They are not troubled by the small things.

Instead, they focus on the bigger picture.

“They seem never to get so close to the trees that they fail to see the forest. They work within a framework of values that are broad and not petty, universal and not local, and in terms of a century rather than the moment.[...] This impression of being above small things [...] seems to impart a certain serenity and lack of worry over immediate concerns that make life easier not only for themselves but for all who are associated with them.”

8) Self-actualized people are grateful.
They do not take their blessings for granted, and by doing so, maintain a fresh sense of wonder towards the universe.

“Self-actualizing people have the wonderful capacity to appreciate again and again, freshly and naïvely, the basic goods of life, with awe, pleasure, wonder, and even ecstasy, however stale these experiences may have become to others [...] Thus for such a person, any sunset may be as beautiful as the first one, any flower may be of breath-taking loveliness, even after he has seen a million flowers. [...] For such people, even the casual workaday, moment-to-moment business of living can be thrilling.”

9) They share deep relationships with a few, but also feel identification and affection towards the entire human race.

“Self-actualizing people have deeper and more profound interpersonal relations than any other adults [...] They are capable of more fusion, greater love, more perfect identification, more obliteration of the ego boundaries than other people would consider possible. [...This devotion] exists side by side with a widespreading [...] benevolence, affection, and friendliness. These people tend to be kind [and friendly] to almost everyone [...] of suitable character regardless of class, education, political belief, race, or color.”

10) Self-actualized people are humble.

“They are all quite well aware of how little they know in comparison with what could be known and what is known by others. Because of this it is possible for them without pose to be honestly respectful and even humble before people who can teach them something.”

11) Self-actualized people resist enculturation.
They do not allow themselves to be passively molded by culture — they deliberate and make their own decisions, selecting what they see as good, and rejecting what they see as bad. They neither accept all, like a sheep, nor reject all, like the average rebel. Self-actualized people:

“make up their own minds, come to their own decisions, are self-starters, are responsible for themselves and their own destinies. [...] too many people do not make up their own minds, but have their minds made up for them by salesmen, advertisers, parents, propagandists, TV, newspapers and so on.”
Because of their self-decision, self-actualized people have codes of ethics that are individualized and autonomous rather than being dictated by society.

“They are the most ethical of people even though their ethics are not necessarily the same as those of the people around them [...because] the ordinary ethical behavior of the average person is largely conventional behavior rather than truly ethical behavior.”

12) Despite all this, self-actualized people are not perfect.

“There are no perfect human beings! Persons can be found who are good, very good indeed, in fact, great. [...] And yet these very same people can at times be boring, irritating, petulant, selfish, angry, or depressed. To avoid disillusionment with human nature, we must first give up our illusions about it.”


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## AtMyEnd (Feb 20, 2017)

You're certainly not alone in feeling this way. When things started falling apart in my marriage the same thing slowly started happening. I spent so much time focusing on our problems and what I could do to "fix" them that I lost touch with everything else. I stopped going out with my friends so I could spend time with my wife, because that's what I thought was the right thing to do. I did things and went places with her that I could've said no to because I really didn't want to go, but I said yes because I thought it was the right thing to do. And when I was there or doing whatever it was I was miserable and it showed. I disconnected from friends, things I used to love doing, I lost who I once was and in the process ending pushing her further away.

Now my marriage is a complete mess because of things I've done and things she's done over the past 2 years. I still love my wife but there is no real connection there. She has also told me that she feels no connection between us anymore as well. In the past month or so I've taken the position that I'm going to live my life for me and what I want. I'm not withdrawing from my wife or my family really at all but I'm doing what I want to do to better myself as a person and try to regain who I once was. I've stopped trying to fix things and I'm leaving our problems to work themselves out, if they're going to at all. I no longer offer her suggestions on what to do on matters unless she specifically asks for a suggestion, all I do is listen and try to understand. I try not to speak to her much unless it's essential conversation about home or family. I'll ask her how her day was and little things like that, but if she doesn't start a conversation about it I don't go any further to push a conversation.

I will say that the little things like limiting conversation and pushing for a conversation, along with little things like randomly going out for a drink with a friend, or going to hit golf balls without her, or even just going for a drive by myself, have started to make a difference. Regular conversation between us has increased a little, I've found us goofing around and laughing more together, and even the simple thing of her rolling over to cuddle for a few minutes in the morning every now and then has increased. Yes there are good days, along with days where she seems to want nothing to do with me, but those days do seem to be decreasing.

I'm not sure if any of that helped other then to let you know that you certainly aren't alone. The one piece of advice I could give you is to look up the book "No More Mr. Nice Guy", there were a lot of things in it that really struck a chord with me and open my eyes to who I've become and why it pushed her further away. Hang in there and try to focus on you and making you happy, if it was meant to be it'll work itself out eventually. And if it wasn't really meant to be, then at least you will be you again, and ready for your next adventure.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

urf said:


> I think your talking about self actualization but I'm not sure.


It is a kind of self-actualization I'm talking about, I guess. Achieving a high-level of self-actualization undoubtedly allows one to stay mentally and emotionally independent from others while still living in complex relationships with them. I can imagine a truly self-actualized individual needs nothing from others and can probably do a great job of not allowing themselves to be adversely affected by others in their life. 

If you need nothing from others, they have no power over you.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> New to this forum, but I've lurked a bit and finally thought I might be able to get some direction from this community.
> 
> I've spent a lot of time in the last year or two trying to better understand life and love, and while I've made some progress, I am still struggling, so I thought I might see if anyone else can help me find the answers I'm looking for.
> 
> ...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Welcome to the journey of self improvement, where you do everything you can to find your self worth in the mirror rather than what is around you. 



Dazedconfuzed said:


> How do you maintain a relationship like a marriage without becoming attached or dependent on your spouse? How are you able to keep the distance necessary to ensure that someone like your spouse can't affect your mental or emotional well-being while still having to find a way to work with them every day?


You do this by finding things you love to do, that lead you to feel better about yourself, and pursue them. Once you find the pursuit, you balance that with family time. I spent the better part of two years reading self improvement books, to include No More Mister Nice Guy, Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s (this is an absolute must read), Awareness, and others. I got in the best shape of my life (at the time). It still wasn't enough. 

What changed is when I found something I could pursue that stimulated my mind enough that my wife was no longer my first priority. I started Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu a little over a year ago, and it continues to be my pursuit. Now I am competing with my son, who helped to get me into BJJ as he was doing it nearly eight months longer than me. We go to tournaments together about one Saturday per month or so. Basically, I got a life away from my wife. I have also been taking Muay Thai (kickboxing) classes for nearly three years, and am now teaching one to two classes a week. I am pursuing my mission in life, which is to constantly improve me as opposed to trying to improve my marriage, and helping those around me. Funny that, as improving myself has dramatically improved my marriage. 



Dazedconfuzed said:


> How do you meet your own 'needs' for things that seemingly would require another person, such as friendship, intimacy, or sex? I've done pretty well living on my own, independent from others, but I still can't shake the feelings of loneliness and depression from lack of connection to others (and from a lack of sex)?


This is what led to my journey starting at the end of 2013. The short answer? You cannot meet all of your own needs. Humans are social animals, and require interaction. That said, the key is to spread it around a little bit. Meet friend A for one particular thing, friend B for another, spouse for sex, etc. Your wife should not be your sole source of companionship, hobbies, etc. 

Now in fairness, my sex life is still not where I want it to be. We connect somewhere between 2-8 times per month on average. I would like it to be 2-3 times per week, *but we can't always get what we want*, and I can live with our current frequency. Please note the bold part of the last sentence; my wife clearly understands that now as well. There was a time where her wants and needs were paramount while mine were optional; no longer. Hers get to be every bit as important as mine are. She wants to connect less or stop meeting my needs? Sure thing...I add another night or two of BJJ to my schedule, I take my son to have a Dudes Day, or go do something by myself. She wants more from me? I give her a gentle reminder that if she wants more from me, she can start by doing more for me. She gets to choose our level of mutual engagement. Either way, I fill my life with other things besides her, and she can pursue me if she wants me. That is not to say I don't do things for her, or that I don't consistently meet her needs. I just simply give her less of myself when she withdraws. 



Dazedconfuzed said:


> Finally, has anyone been truly successful at creating such a solid sense of self-respect and self-worth such that no amount of criticism, negativity, or hostility from your partner can shake your feelings about yourself?


Nope. Anyone who claims otherwise either never steps out of their comfort zone, or is disordered. All of us have doubts about some things. 

That said, if I ever felt that my wife was beginning to become overly critical again, I would simply tell her that all she has to do is say the word, and I will free her to find a better, more successful, more mature partner, at any time. But here is the rub: I am not easily replaceable, and she knows it. There was a time she did not believe it anymore. Why is she convinced now? Because my actions and my belief in myself clearly communicate so. 



Dazedconfuzed said:


> Are you able to let their opinion of you slide off your back without causing any pain or hurt, either to yourself or to the marriage? If so, what do you think enabled your ability to achieve that?


Nope, and frankly, I don't want to. Think about this. You are clearly sensitive; I recognize the trait well, as I am the same. In order for things like that not to hurt, I have to fundamentally change who I am. I love big, laugh often, show tears and other emotions, make fun of everything in life, listen to my music loud and sing with it loud, have a twisted sense of humor, am incredibly driven in pursuit of what I want, and any number of other things that people may consider negative. If someone does not like that, or they criticize, **** them; I have no room for them in my life, and they are missing out. I achieved that by learning to love myself. Do you know how I learned to love myself? I stopped being ashamed of those aspects of my personality that I hid due to fear of rejection or criticism, combined with applying discipline to when I opened my mouth, as some situations are truly poor in which to inject something sophomoric, which I still likely do too often. Bottom line: the more you love the person in the mirror, the less you need everyone in life to love you.

It had an interesting effect. It brought my wife and I closer, and it led to being surrounded by people who appreciated those aspects of my personality. Hell, my wife used to make fun of some things in my personality when we were sexless and she did not respect me. That was really the last straw for me to pull my head from my ass and start living life for me. My wife used to make comments like, "I feel like I am raising two children" (my son and me) and I would feel shame. Funny, that, as she married me in large part because of my twisted sense of humor. Now when she says those things, I embrace it and turn it into something a little twisted, and often sexual. She normally laughs at that. 



Dazedconfuzed said:


> My wife has made overtures recently that she would like to connect more (though I'm not sure what that actually involves or looks like), but I've stayed distant, concerned about putting myself in a position where I again could become vulnerable to getting attached to her or dependent on her, which could easily destroy my marriage all over again.


I wouldn't do it. She literally left you when you needed her the most, which was when you needed help finding your way. It happens to many of us. Something happens to us and suddenly we look around and realize that we are not where we thought we should be in life. This normally happens after a particularly challenging time, or after things get stagnant in life. Your XW could not handle it. If she could not handle it when you were lost, why should she get you now that you have improved? No, thank you. There are other women out there to experience. Exes are exes for a reason, whether made so by you or them. 



Dazedconfuzed said:


> In addition to personal viewpoints, can anyone recommend any resources that might help me in my journey?


Both can be purchased used from eBay for $5 or less each:

Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s by Wayne Levine
Awareness by Anthony Demello

Then, find your mission in life, and invite your partner to pursue it with you. If she won't, you continue to pursue it. This will likely lead to either your partner being left behind, or joining you.

Lastly, and possibly most important, is to mitigate your fear. All of us experience fear. How you deal with that fear will determine how well those around you respond. I am not saying to bury it, but rather embrace it, and understand that your greatest fears may be realized, but likely not. Learn to let go of the outcome. Learn outcome independence. Then, no matter what happens, you will be okay.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I guess I would probably start with speaking to a therapist, if you have not already, to help you determine if you are in fact overly needy. Is that objectively true, or is your wife's viewpoint on this skewed for some reason? In what ways are you too needy and are those ways things that you'd be willing to change about yourself?

Complete independence would not really be a workable dynamic in a marital relationship - you are, after all, part of a two-person partnership and not a completely independent person. There are absolutely needs that one can reasonably expect a partner to meet for you, and ones that you should absolutely expect to meet for your partner. Otherwise, there's a complete emotional disconnect that makes for an unhealthy and unhappy marriage. 

Co-dependence, however, is also not healthy and not part of a good marriage. If you have not, OP, do some research on co-dependence to see if that fits the dynamic of your marriage. If it does, then there are resources out there that can help you form a more healthy relationship. For starters, though, you would need to get healthier within, and for, yourself. That is likely to start with doing some work to improve your own self-esteem. People who value themselves to a healthy degree tend to avoid co-dependent relationships. They are neither overly needy themselves, nor willing to enable excessive neediness in their partner. Your core emotional stability must come from within yourself, so that you are not totally reliant on others for your emotional regulation and strength. 

_Inter_dependence is healthy in a close, loving, relationship. Two emotionally healthy and whole people who choose to be interdependent should be the goal. You cannot make your wife happy. Your wife cannot make you happy. Happiness has to come from within. In a healthy relationship, that happiness - emotional stability and wholeness - belongs individually to each partner and they choose to share it with one another.


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## urf (Feb 18, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> It is a kind of self-actualization I'm talking about, I guess. Achieving a high-level of self-actualization undoubtedly allows one to stay mentally and emotionally independent from others while still living in complex relationships with them. I can imagine a truly self-actualized individual needs nothing from others and can probably do a great job of not allowing themselves to be adversely affected by others in their life.
> 
> If you need nothing from others, they have no power over you.


I'm not sure you understand. No matter though. What you said is partly true. *You said: If you need nothing from others, they have no power over you* Others really have no power other than what you give them. The idea here is that you become the man you want to be. There is no need to become a hermit, alone and apart from the world. You become a magnet and attract all that you WANT from the world. What you need is a minimalist approach. What you want is everything. 

Somewhere inside you is a place where the man you want to be slumbers. Find him inside yourself. Let him lead you.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Rowan said:


> I guess I would probably start with speaking to a therapist, if you have not already, to help you determine if you are in fact overly needy. Is that objectively true, or is your wife's viewpoint on this skewed for some reason? In what ways are you too needy and are those ways things that you'd be willing to change about yourself?


Our marriage counselor has cautioned me to not expect marriage to meet my needs. A relationship seminar we took advocated the same thing, to stop expecting another person or a marriages to meet our needs. Only we can meet our own needs. You can request for others to help you, of course, but your request should not carry an expectation.



Rowan said:


> Complete independence would not really be a workable dynamic in a marital relationship - you are, after all, part of a two-person partnership and not a completely independent person.


It's less complete independence, and more emotional/mental independence. Clearly, marriage requires a certain amount of interdependence - there are children to care for, bills to pay, etc. But everything I read emphasizes how emotional fulfillment and well-being is something only you can do for yourself. You cannot allow your emotional fulfillment and well-being to be dependent on others and what they are or are not doing for you. 



Rowan said:


> For starters, though, you would need to get healthier within, and for, yourself. That is likely to start with doing some work to improve your own self-esteem. People who value themselves to a healthy degree tend to avoid co-dependent relationships. They are neither overly needy themselves, nor willing to enable excessive neediness in their partner. Your core emotional stability must come from within yourself, so that you are not totally reliant on others for your emotional regulation and strength.


I've been working for a while to become more healthy myself. When my marital troubles started, and my wife started distancing herself from me, I sunk into a deep depression (exacerbated by having lost my job (at the height of the recession, when comparable jobs were nowhere to be found), moving into a new house, trying to support my bereaved and insane mother when my dad dropped dead suddenly, and dealing with everything that goes with having a pregnant wife and then a new child). I haven't fully recovered, but I am definitely coping much better than I did for a few years there.

I totally recognize that I've not been a great partner this whole time, and I don't blame my wife for being angry, resentful, and distanced. She was forced to become the primary breadwinner right when she also needed to start a family (she was about 33 and couldn't put it off any longer), and the stress of having to handle all of that really wore her down. I wasn't 'manning up' right when she most needed me to be 'the man', due to the fact I couldn't seem to get my own **** together. I got weak right when I needed most to be strong, and the more she put distance between us, the more I 'chased' her and looked to her to 'meet my needs' (intimately, sexually, etc). 

One of my problems with working on this stuff, though, is highlighted in your text - I have no idea what 'overly needy' or 'totally reliant' actually looks like. All I know is that I felt like I wanted to feel close to my wife, and I didn't feel like we were close because of the lack of sex, the lack of time spent together, my losing her respect and the lack of her positive affirmations of me, etc. Instead of letting the loss of those things impact me, I took them personally and looked to her to provide them for me. It finally came to a head a few years back when she said, "I've done everything I can do to help you, and I can't do anything more." My first reaction was "I feel like you haven't done *anything* to help me" (which wasn't received well, believe me), but her declaration is what made me start to look inward instead of to her. Maybe she wasn't the problem and I was? That's when I realized that it was up to me to meet my own needs, not anyone else.




Rowan said:


> You cannot make your wife happy. Your wife cannot make you happy. Happiness has to come from within. In a healthy relationship, that happiness - emotional stability and wholeness - belongs individually to each partner and they choose to share it with one another.


I agree with this, in theory.

In reality, it's hard to see my wife unhappy and to know that, if I were a better partner/man, she wouldn't feel that way. Likewise, while I know that my wife can't make me happy, I feel like finding happiness when facing a strong headwind from my spouse is a challenge I haven't figured out how to overcome yet. How do I pursue my own happiness without causing more stress and hardship for my wife and son, without further eroding her respect for me? I'm working hard to live up to the challenge of 'don't do what you love, love what you do', and I've made some progress, but I'm still having a hard time climbing out of the hole I find myself in.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> ....In all my research, it's clear that I can't look to others or to external circumstances (like marriage or friendships) to get my 'needs' met. I feel like I've made a lot of progress in becoming strong and emotionally independent and self-sufficient, but I still feel like I have a long ways to go, so I thought I'd get some input from those who may have accomplished their own self-sufficiency in life.
> 
> How do you maintain a relationship like a marriage without becoming attached or dependent on your spouse? How are you able to keep the distance necessary to ensure that someone like your spouse can't affect your mental or emotional well-being while still having to find a way to work with them every day?
> 
> ...


I would suggest that I really agree with Farsidejunky and what he told you.

You need to understand that being suffocating and clingy is not sexy to your wife. 

I did some mountain climbing (that I first did early in my marriage but gave up, when we had children) with my son. I also did some long distance bike rides with him (100 mile rides). These were things and the training for them that took me out of the house, that gave my wife space and gave me a sense of accomplishment and built a special closeness to my son.

Dr. Harley of Marriage Builders believes that one important aspect of a happy marriage is shared recreational activity. I know lots of couples that play bridge, belong to bowling leagues, play golf every week, do square dancing, wine tasting, walking, traveling, volunteer at a non-profit charity, etc. It is important for two people to share some recreational activity. Your wife has asked to connect to you, find some shared activity to do together.

I would echo that Chapman's 5 LL, Glover's NMMNG, Sue Johnson's Hold Me Tight, and MW Davis the Sex Starved Marriage really helped me deal with my issues and better understand myself so I could become a more integrated man who was less codependent on my wife. 

You may want to read up on what it means to be codependent or as Glover likes to say, need a woman to validate your emotions and being.

Good luck. It can be done.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Young at Heart said:


> You need to understand that being suffocating and clingy is not sexy to your wife.


I know that better than many by now, lol. I think I've definitely eradicated any 'clinginess' that I might have had - I've definitely stopped looking to my wife for, well, anything, really.



> It is important for two people to share some recreational activity.


For the past five or six years, we've been mostly unable to find time to just have basic conversations, let alone share a recreational activity. Every few weeks, we might actually find time to watch a TV show together, and my MIL visits about once a quarter and we go out to dinner. Beyond that, there is no 'us time' to speak of...



> Your wife has asked to connect to you, find some shared activity to do together.


And that's why I'm not sure what 'connect' means. Mostly, I think she wants me to give her hugs/be loving/not be distant more than actually spending time or energy 'sharing' anything. 



> You may want to read up on what it means to be codependent or as Glover likes to say, need a woman to validate your emotions and being.


Well, and that's the tricky part. I can't tell if I need her validation (she certainly seems to think I do) or whether I just want her to stop thinking I'm a loser and a ****ty partner. What is the difference between wanting respect and wanting validation?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Wanting respect from her is a form of wanting validation.

The differences in how it impacts you. If she does not respect you, are you able to understand and Let It Go, or if you start trying to take deliberate action to gain her respect?

The former is not being needy. The ladder is needy.

When she turns you down for sex, did you pout and let it upset your whole world, or did you go find something else going to do?

Do you see the difference?


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Wanting respect from her is a form of wanting validation.
> 
> The differences in how it impacts you. If she does not respect you, are you able to understand and Let It Go, or if you start trying to take deliberate action to gain her respect?


Neither, probably.

Actually regaining her respect would take some serious doing - more than I feel capable of accomplishing in any kind of shorter time-frame. I've mostly given up even bothering to try. I'm just focused on getting through each day.

OTOH, I do understand it, but I can't shake letting it get me down. It sucks to know that someone who thought you were pretty badass (at least for some period of time) is now reduced to seeing me as little more than a hopeless child. I get why. I don't blame her. But it can suck spending your life in that shadow. 

>When she turns you down for sex, did you pout and let it upset your whole world, or did you go find something else going to do?

I used to pout. I used to also get pissed and get into fights with her about it. Then I finally gave up.

Now, the few times that I even bother trying to initiate anymore (I gave up initiating years ago - what little self-respect I had left finally stopped me from banging my head against that wall), I'm actually pretty cool about letting it go. I'm used to the rejection by now, and to the lack of sex, so I don't take it too personally. 

OTOH, it's taken me a much longer time to be cool about never having sex. That's why I asked the question as to how one goes about being 'self-reliant' and 'self-fulfilled' when it comes to stuff like sex. Seems like that is one area that requires another human being in order to be fulfilled.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I misread your initial post in that I thought your marriage was over. Not that it isn't over in spirit, but on paper. 

So, what is your next step?


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> I misread your initial post in that I thought your marriage was over. Not that it isn't over in spirit, but on paper.
> 
> So, what is your next step?


Becoming more self-reliant and self-sufficient. Learning to play the cards I've been dealt. 

Thanks for the engagement, and I'll respond to your first text with some of the challenges I'm facing and the resulting questions.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I'm not sure why you think you should not expect your wife to fill some of your emotional needs. You both have some number of needs that you can reasonable expect for the other to meet.

You might want to read the books "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs" to give you an idea of what is reasonable to expect in marriage.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Welcome to the journey of self improvement, where you do everything you can to find your self worth in the mirror rather than what is around you.


Yep, thanks. That's the challenge, and I totally get it. Hence the initial question of how to find what I need in the mirror instead of looking for something from others.




> You do this by finding things you love to do, that lead you to feel better about yourself, and pursue them.


Yeah, that is the conventional wisdom. 

My problem is, since having a kid and losing my career, 'finding what I love to do' isn't a particularly good option. The old adage, 'Don't do what you love - love what you do' comes to mind. 

Money is tight, energy is exhausted, just trying to keep everyone fed and clothed and under a roof seems the daunting challenge. I have a 'to-do' list as long as my arm, and it grows every single day. My goal is just to get myself, my wife, and my son through each day, while finding whatever opportunities I can to ensure my son is getting what he needs to thrive.

Doing something 'I love' is so far removed from my daily experience - I'm just looking to make things not suck. Hell, I've burned pretty much all the free time I have for the week just posting here trying to make sense of my life.



> Once you find the pursuit, you balance that with family time.


My problem with that is two-fold. 

First, 'family time' is pretty much all I can focus on. The needs are great, and my abilities often seem inadequate to the task (see above).

Secondly, my wife has a high-powered, stressful job. Between working long hours and trying to be a good mother (god bless her), she feels she has no time for anything *she* wants. She has referred to my time at home (working my ass off) as 'free time', mostly 'cause she would love to be able to spend more time at home. How I spend my time is always under scrutiny as to how productive it is for the family. I don't have a lot of leeway for 'personal pursuits.'



> I spent the better part of two years reading self improvement books, to include No More Mister Nice Guy, Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s (this is an absolute must read), Awareness, and others.


The first has been on my reading list (listening list, actually - I don't really have time to read, so I listen to books while I work) for a long time. The others are new to me; I will check them out. Thanks!



> I got in the best shape of my life (at the time).


Funny enough, my downward spiral and dead bedroom started when I was in the best shape of my life. I've never been so strong and ripped as I was when the sex and intimacy departed my marriage.



> I am pursuing my mission in life, which is to constantly improve me as opposed to trying to improve my marriage, and helping those around me. Funny that, as improving myself has dramatically improved my marriage.


Yeah, I get that. 

One of the reasons I've focused on my marriage is that I feel I need at least a little breathing room in order to broaden my horizons. Sometime within the last year, I realized that my anxiety levels when I'm at home are ridiculously high. It's like I'm living under a dark cloud. My anxiety actually goes *up* when I know my wife is coming home (it's gotten a little better recently, but I don't really trust how long that small respite will last), because things are even more tense, at least for me, when she is around. Living in that kind of constant stress is really inhibiting my ability to be proactive in life. 

Which is why I'm trying to learn to tune out the outside world and just live self-sufficiently. 




> That said, the key is to spread it around a little bit. Meet friend A for one particular thing, friend B for another, spouse for sex, etc. Your wife should not be your sole source of companionship, hobbies, etc.


And that has been one of the big problems. When I had a kid, most of my 'former life' friends dropped off the map. I could no longer focus as much on creating opportunities to hang out with everyone (I was always the driving force in my social circle). I became a 'boring' parent, and a lot of my friends became 'boring' parents around the same time, which meant that coordinating activities was a huge ordeal for all of us. I just couldn't put as much energy into my friendships, so they went inactive.

Now, I fortunately do have a close friend in my kid's best friend's dad (thank god my kid picked a best friend with a cool single dad). So he and I get together with the kids for several hours at least once every week or two, but that still is a far cry from the kind of 'adult' interactions I used to enjoy. We hang out and talk, but our attention is always split.

If I didn't have that one outlet, compromised as it may be, I wouldn't have any regular social life whatsoever. Which is, again, why I'm trying to learn to get by without needing anyone else for my happiness or sense of fulfillment.



> She wants more from me? I give her a gentle reminder that if she wants more from me, she can start by doing more for me.


She already feels she does more than her fair share for me by working hard and making money. I work part-time to try to help make ends meet, but being old and having been out of the work force for so many years, it's not like I'm going to be able to take over being the primary breadwinner any time soon.

Additionally, as much as working part-time sucks, my part-time work pays extraordinarily well for being part-time, and it gives me the flexibility to help out with our son. Someone has to bring a sick kid home from school (which happens ridiculously often with little kids)? No problem, I've got it covered. I can cover the parenting duties so she can keep working.

I know she wants me to start bringing in more money, but I'm not sure who is going to step up on the domestic front to cover for me if I can't make it a priority any more. It certainly isn't going to be her.



> She gets to choose our level of mutual engagement. Either way, I fill my life with other things besides her, and she can pursue me if she wants me.


Been like that for a while between us, though I don't really fill my life with *my* things, per se, just with taking care of the household and the kid (whom she does a lot of work for as well) while also doing my best to make money part-time.



> That is not to say I don't do things for her, or that I don't consistently meet her needs. I just simply give her less of myself when she withdraws.


Yeah, she doesn't get a lot of *me*, but she doesn't really seem to need a lot from me, either (other than to take care of the household so she can work). She has been pretty clear that I am not her priority anymore, so she isn't that concerned. I know she would *like* to feel closer to me, but she is fine with not being closer at this point. I'm trying to get to the same place.



> That said, if I ever felt that my wife was beginning to become overly critical again, I would simply tell her that all she has to do is say the word, and I will free her to find a better, more successful, more mature partner, at any time. But here is the rub: I am not easily replaceable, and she knows it.


I honestly think her calculus isn't 'could I find someone better' (she's probably realistic enough at this point to know that her options are way more limited than they were), but 'could I do better on my own.' I don't think she necessarily could do better on her own, but I don't want to make the mistake of being seen as dead weight, either. 

Regardless, the priority is our son, and we both agree that having both parents in his life every day is far preferable to not. She wants me around for *him*, even if not for her. Which is why I'm trying to adapt myself as best I can to the new reality. I have no idea how he would fare, both emotionally and (not at all insignificantly) materially, if we split, and I don't want to find out. I'm trying my damnedest to make his life *better*, not worse.




> I love big, laugh often, show tears and other emotions, make fun of everything in life, listen to my music loud and sing with it loud, have a twisted sense of humor, am incredibly driven in pursuit of what I want, and any number of other things that people may consider negative.


Apart from the possible over-emotionalism, I can't see how anyone would see those as negatives. Most people find those traits attractive.

The one thing that has proven difficult for me is adapting the 'driven in pursuit of what I want' to life as a parent (and a guy who is no longer in a good position to provide). I had some pretty eclectic pursuits that I was driven towards, but many of those no longer seem to fit with my responsibilities as a parent. Being a creative free-spirit is cool and all (and boy was I ever), but it doesn't provide for a family or meet responsibilities. It's sad, but I know have little patience for all the 'free spirits' in the world. Life just seems too hard for that anymore.



> I stopped being ashamed of those aspects of my personality that I hid due to fear of rejection or criticism, combined with applying discipline to when I opened my mouth, as some situations are truly poor in which to inject something sophomoric, which I still likely do too often.


Kudos to you on that. I'm trying to get some of that back for myself, but I still have this overwhelming concern that everything I do is now seen through the filter of being a little boy's dad. **** that I used to be able to brush off with a brusque 'F-em' now hits me hard.



> Bottom line: the more you love the person in the mirror, the less you need everyone in life to love you.


Yep, very true. That's my goal.



> My wife used to make comments like, "I feel like I am raising two children" (my son and me) and I would feel shame.


My wife has said that often, too, but not because of my personality, but because of my 'neediness' and general lack of perceived value. It's hard to play with that kind of criticism.



> She literally left you when you needed her the most, which was when you needed help finding your way.


As you ascertained, we're still together, but we both feel like we were abandoned by the other when we needed the other the most. She can meet my resentment punch for punch, unfortunately, even as we both feel the other is being unfair and that the hurts received are worse than those inflicted. It sucks.





> Then, find your mission in life, and invite your partner to pursue it with you. If she won't, you continue to pursue it. This will likely lead to either your partner being left behind, or joining you.


This is always how I lived, so I whole-heartedly endorse this mindset. Unfortunately for me, all the rules seemed to change once I became a parent and my whole life fell apart. I haven't figured out how to recover, which is why I'm just focused doing what I can without needing anyone else. 



> Lastly, and possibly most important, is to mitigate your fear. All of us experience fear. How you deal with that fear will determine how well those around you respond. I am not saying to bury it, but rather embrace it, and understand that your greatest fears may be realized, but likely not. Learn to let go of the outcome. Learn outcome independence. Then, no matter what happens, you will be okay.


Very wise words, words that I myself often tell others. 

What I am trying to learn now is how to maintain that critical outcome independence when the possible outcomes seem narrowly confined. It's like the reaction to getting turned down for sex I mentioned earlier - the rejection doesn't even bother me anymore. But taking any sexual expression as an outcome off the table entirely? That has been harder for me to stay independent around. 

I feel like the key to being outcome independent at this point is to learn to embrace the available outcomes, if that makes sense.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Much of what you wrote resembled a feeling of being overwhelmed. As simple as this will sound, how about making one simple adjustment for yourself this week? An action of some kind to contribute to lowering your anxiety. 

One action. That's it. 

The other thing I considered with your posts, was around resilience and tenacity / grit. Building (or revisiting) grit is rarely achieved solo. Surrounding ourselves with supportive people, asking for support, as well as being a support for others, contributes to becoming more resilient. Support is not to be mistaken for needy or codependent. 

This also begins with simple steps, with action. 

Simplify. Achieve one action.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Dazed:

I have a ton I need to write to you, but I am getting out the door with B11 in tow.

A few things before I do:

You are a man first, a husband second, and a father third. Those are the order of your priorities. Never forget that.

The only thing that has changed in this situation is you.

A healthy single parent household is better than modeling a dysfunctional but married family.

Are you sick and tired of being sick and tired? This is fixable for you, and possibly your marriage as well. 

However, you have to be willing to risk it all to find out...Or just continue as is while your soul is sucked dry.

I will post more when I get to work.

@MEM2020, who does this sound like?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> My problem is, since having a kid and losing my career, 'finding what I love to do' isn't a particularly good option. The old adage, 'Don't do what you love - love what you do' comes to mind.


So, the catalyst for this whole thing is from you losing your job? 



Dazedconfuzed said:


> Money is tight, energy is exhausted, just trying to keep everyone fed and clothed and under a roof seems the daunting challenge. I have a 'to-do' list as long as my arm, and it grows every single day. My goal is just to get myself, my wife, and my son through each day, while finding whatever opportunities I can to ensure my son is getting what he needs to thrive.


For just a moment, I want to cross over into theory. Right now you are so focused on how to divide up your pie that you are failing to realize there is another option: growing the size of the pie.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> Doing something 'I love' is so far removed from my daily experience - I'm just looking to make things not suck. Hell, I've burned pretty much all the free time I have for the week just posting here trying to make sense of my life.


If 20 minutes of free time is all you have, then it is time to eliminate some things and pass some responsibility back to your wife. Also, you are setting your sights on trying not to suck? Too much focus on surviving rather than thriving.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> My problem with that is two-fold.
> 
> First, 'family time' is pretty much all I can focus on. The needs are great, and my abilities often seem inadequate to the task (see above).


I see a situation where no matter what you do (short of finding employment), it will not be good enough for your wife. I hear the resentment in this statement, from both sides.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> Secondly, my wife has a high-powered, stressful job. Between working long hours and trying to be a good mother (god bless her), she feels she has no time for anything *she* wants. She has referred to my time at home (working my ass off) as 'free time', mostly 'cause she would love to be able to spend more time at home. How I spend my time is always under scrutiny as to how productive it is for the family. I don't have a lot of leeway for 'personal pursuits.'


So, you are letting her mother you. I want you to practice five statements. They are incredibly effective at establishing boundaries, which is what you desperately need as you allow your wife to walk all over you.

1. "I am not okay with x."
2. "I'm sorry you feel that way."
3. "I see it differently."
3. "You do what you feel you have to do. I will do the same."
4. "Are you done?"

When she questions how you spend your time? "I am not okay with your attempt to manage my time." This will likely produce anger from her. That is exactly what is needed. When she makes an angry remark: "I am not okay with disrespectful outbursts." If she tells you how angry she is over something that you do not agree with: "I see it differently." If she threatens you with anything: "You do what you feel you have to do. I will do the same." If it gets to the point where the argument is no longer going anywhere, but she insists on engaging: "Are you done?"

So, here is the thing that sets this apart from what you are doing now: you are not seeking agreement with her. She does not have to like or agree with you doing what you believe to be right. If she doesn't like it, she can go pound sand, file for divorce, scream, yell, or any number of other things. Too...damn...bad...for her. 

Conversely, when you screw up, apologize. Be man enough to accept where you fell short. But balance that fiercely with drawing the line over her being unreasonable over something.

Also, when you assert these statements, you must be calm and without anger or fear. Think Spock when you deliver these statements.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> Funny enough, my downward spiral and dead bedroom started when I was in the best shape of my life. I've never been so strong and ripped as I was when the sex and intimacy departed my marriage.


You are not getting in shape for her. You are getting in shape for you.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> One of the reasons I've focused on my marriage is that I feel I need at least a little breathing room in order to broaden my horizons. Sometime within the last year, I realized that my anxiety levels when I'm at home are ridiculously high. It's like I'm living under a dark cloud. My anxiety actually goes *up* when I know my wife is coming home (it's gotten a little better recently, but I don't really trust how long that small respite will last), because things are even more tense, at least for me, when she is around. Living in that kind of constant stress is really inhibiting my ability to be proactive in life.


You can have as much breathing room as you are willing to take. You power to do so is not being taken away. You are GIVING it away. The reason your anxiety spikes with your wife present is because you do not stand up to her. Have you ever seen American Beauty? That is a perfect example of a man taking his power back.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> And that has been one of the big problems. When I had a kid, most of my 'former life' friends dropped off the map. I could no longer focus as much on creating opportunities to hang out with everyone (I was always the driving force in my social circle). I became a 'boring' parent, and a lot of my friends became 'boring' parents around the same time, which meant that coordinating activities was a huge ordeal for all of us. I just couldn't put as much energy into my friendships, so they went inactive.


Such is life. However, becoming boring was something you allowed to happen, not something that happened to you. Do you see the difference? You are coming at this like you are a victim of forces beyond your control. Everything...every...single...thing that you have done in response to what life has given you has been within your control. You are in a prison that you willingly entered, you closed the door behind you when you entered, yet you are blaming life for putting you behind bars.

Read this, and do so not through the prism of your wife, but YOU.

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/Now

Get out of the victim chair.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> I fortunately do have a close friend in my kid's best friend's dad (thank god my kid picked a best friend with a cool single dad). So he and I get together with the kids for several hours at least once every week or two, but that still is a far cry from the kind of 'adult' interactions I used to enjoy. We hang out and talk, but our attention is always split.
> Do you share what is happening with your marriage and life with him?
> 
> If I didn't have that one outlet, compromised as it may be, I wouldn't have any regular social life whatsoever. Which is, again, why I'm trying to learn to get by without needing anyone else for my happiness or sense of fulfillment.


So what. Set aside time. Go do something fun. When the wife *****es about it, shrug your shoulders, smile, and tell her you will see her when you get back. If she is unwilling to handle child care duties, find someone who will. When you get back, she will likely be steaming mad. So what. "This is what I need to make me a better me. You wouldn't want to stop that, would you?" 



Dazedconfuzed said:


> She already feels she does more than her fair share for me by working hard and making money. I work part-time to try to help make ends meet, but being old and having been out of the work force for so many years, it's not like I'm going to be able to take over being the primary breadwinner any time soon.
> 
> Additionally, as much as working part-time sucks, my part-time work pays extraordinarily well for being part-time, and it gives me the flexibility to help out with our son. Someone has to bring a sick kid home from school (which happens ridiculously often with little kids)? No problem, I've got it covered. I can cover the parenting duties so she can keep working.
> 
> I know she wants me to start bringing in more money, but I'm not sure who is going to step up on the domestic front to cover for me if I can't make it a priority any more. It certainly isn't going to be her.


How were child care and household duties handled when you were working full time?



Dazedconfuzed said:


> Been like that for a while between us, though I don't really fill my life with *my* things, per se, just with taking care of the household and the kid (whom she does a lot of work for as well) while also doing my best to make money part-time.


Your choice; your fault for allowing it to happen. 



Dazedconfuzed said:


> Yeah, she doesn't get a lot of *me*, but she doesn't really seem to need a lot from me, either (other than to take care of the household so she can work). She has been pretty clear that I am not her priority anymore, so she isn't that concerned. I know she would *like* to feel closer to me, but she is fine with not being closer at this point. I'm trying to get to the same place.


I want you to list 3-5 things you do exclusively for her. These are not things like cleaning the house or feeding the pets; these things would have to be done no matter what. I am talking about listening to her vent about her day, rubbing her feet, massages, making her coffee, etc. 3-5 things; list them.




Dazedconfuzed said:


> I honestly think her calculus isn't 'could I find someone better' (she's probably realistic enough at this point to know that her options are way more limited than they were), but 'could I do better on my own.' I don't think she necessarily could do better on her own, but I don't want to make the mistake of being seen as dead weight, either.


You feeling sorry for yourself and planting your ass in the victim chair is reinforcing her opinion of you.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> Regardless, the priority is our son, and we both agree that having both parents in his life every day is far preferable to not. She wants me around for *him*, even if not for her. Which is why I'm trying to adapt myself as best I can to the new reality. I have no idea how he would fare, both emotionally and (not at all insignificantly) materially, if we split, and I don't want to find out. I'm trying my damnedest to make his life *better*, not worse.


I come from a broken home. Yes, it hurt. However, my parents argued constantly, and my father did not respect my mother. It took me a lot of years to learn how to respect women. Why? Because that is how I saw my father behave. Would you want your daughter to marry a man like you? Would you want your son to be like you? Think about it.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> The one thing that has proven difficult for me is adapting the 'driven in pursuit of what I want' to life as a parent (and a guy who is no longer in a good position to provide). I had some pretty eclectic pursuits that I was driven towards, but many of those no longer seem to fit with my responsibilities as a parent. Being a creative free-spirit is cool and all (and boy was I ever), but it doesn't provide for a family or meet responsibilities. It's sad, but I know have little patience for all the 'free spirits' in the world. Life just seems too hard for that anymore.


List some of those pursuits.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> Kudos to you on that. I'm trying to get some of that back for myself, but I still have this overwhelming concern that everything I do is now seen through the filter of being a little boy's dad. **** that I used to be able to brush off with a brusque 'F-em' now hits me hard.


This is nothing more than your perception of yourself. It will improve when you get out of the victim chair and start living life again rather than waiting for someone or something to rescue you.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> My wife has said that often, too, but not because of my personality, but because of my 'neediness' and general lack of perceived value. It's hard to play with that kind of criticism.


We will revisit this when you list the things you do exclusively for your wife.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> As you ascertained, we're still together, but we both feel like we were abandoned by the other when we needed the other the most. She can meet my resentment punch for punch, unfortunately, even as we both feel the other is being unfair and that the hurts received are worse than those inflicted. It sucks.


Have you been to marriage counseling?



Dazedconfuzed said:


> This is always how I lived, so I whole-heartedly endorse this mindset. Unfortunately for me, all the rules seemed to change once I became a parent and my whole life fell apart. I haven't figured out how to recover, which is why I'm just focused doing what I can without needing anyone else.


Here again with the victim mentality. "Someone changed the rules, wah, I want my rules back..." 

Make your own ****ing rules. Period. Your victim mentality is troubling. I can only imagine how much it turns your wife off.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> What I am trying to learn now is how to maintain that critical outcome independence when the possible outcomes seem narrowly confined. It's like the reaction to getting turned down for sex I mentioned earlier - the rejection doesn't even bother me anymore. But taking any sexual expression as an outcome off the table entirely? That has been harder for me to stay independent around.
> 
> I feel like the key to being outcome independent at this point is to learn to embrace the available outcomes, if that makes sense.


When was the last time you were intimate with your wife?


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

I agree with a lot of what farsidejunky has said, so I need to parse what I'm about to say so that it doesn't overlap and maybe even reconsider my own perspective. 

Our situations are very similar but for three things which I think that you are missing because you feel like you're missing validation. 

1: you get to hang out with another adult in a similar situation, plus it's another guy. That's HUGE. You're a sight better off than being a "man among mommies" who is viewed as an invader while the rest of the group circles around and grumbles about their workaholic husbands. You want somebody to hang out with without worrying about being tagged into thinking you're having an EA or PA, there's your option. Plus, if he's a parent and single there's got to be a good reason and odds are he probably has useful perspective and some good advice. I suspect that he's had some dealings with his own baby mama that could shed some light on your own struggle. He could probably use some moral support too. 

2: you are able to work part time, which means more "adult time" - plus you have some income of your own. You are not so hard off as you would like to believe. You are simply competing with your wife here. Stop doing that. If anything, I think you may have a better work/life balance than she may have. I think it's entirely unfair that what you bring to the table is viewed as a pittance and that when it comes to having to drop everything it has to be YOU simply because of numbers. 

3: your kid sounds like he is reasonably self sufficient - at least enough to have friends. Even with you and your wife butting heads he is not emotionally stunted. That again is HUGE, but don't think that he doesn't notice. He could be crying out for attention - or worse, have a developmental delay like autism spectrum disorder or some physical condition that requires you to run him to see doctors and therapists - but instead it sounds like you are doing a fine job at meeting his needs. Being the caregiver to my own kids, I see how much my time is worth and know that time is the real currency that counts when it comes to raising a child. 

Again, my situation has me scratching my head in a similar way to yours so take any input I have with a grain of salt but I'm starting to see what I need to do by lurking in threads like this. If I were in your situation I would do those things outlined above and also the following:

1: find a personal therapist to vent to, and I suggest that your wife get one too. If your wife doesn't want to hear it then so be it - for now. I also think that venting in MC hasn't been particularly constructive. The MC isn't there to psychoanalyze you, s/he is there to work on the dynamic between you and your wife. The problem is that you've put your wife on a pedestal. She is not Aphrodite or Queen Elizabeth. She is just another flawed human being. 

2: get exercise or take up a hobby when you are able to and don't think that it's a distraction. Consider it as "maintenance." Trust me on this, you don't want to physically or mentally break down. If you don't then at some point your kid is going to be too big for you to pick up or too fast for you to run off. Like farsidejunky has said, make time for it. If your wife has no time of her own for such things then you two can take it up in MC and suggest that she go to IC for her own imbalances in her schedule. 

3: If your wife comes home after having a bad day or is having trouble managing her anger for whatever reason then I agree wholeheartedly what farsidejunky has already said. If she had a bad day your job should not to be her punching bag, it's just a sign that she needs to take care of herself on her own time just as you should be. If she pulls into her bag of gripes to pile on then again, take it to the marriage counselor. Don't react kneejerk - ESPECIALLY in front of the kid; they see and hear EVERYTHING. If there is an argument, walk away and let cooler heads prevail. Just don't allow yourself to go to bed angry. Attempt to have at least an idle conversation with your wife before either of you retire for the night. 

4: take time (like maybe 30 to 60 minutes) doing anything but what you consider to be "work" at the end of the day. Especially, don't use the time to worry or go overboard into planning activities for the next day. This is also maintenance. If you're having trouble being intimidated or disheartened by your wife, use it as means to calm yourself for idle chit chat with her. She will likely also have had time to decompress after work. If she hasn't then that's her problem that she needs to go to IC for. It's not your job to make her happy any more than it's hers to make YOU happy.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Secondly, my wife has a high-powered, stressful job. Between working long hours and trying to be a good mother (god bless her), she feels she has no time for anything *she* wants. She has referred to my time at home (working my ass off) as 'free time', mostly 'cause she would love to be able to spend more time at home. How I spend my time is always under scrutiny as to how productive it is for the family. I don't have a lot of leeway for 'personal pursuits.'
> 
> Had to jump in here reading this. I think part of the issue might be your expectations. Married couples should agree on how the other spends their time. Maybe she's going about it the wrong way, but I don't think discussing how you spend your day and her desire to agree with you on it is wrong. That's just part of being married.
> 
> ...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> The book talks about how we need our spouse to help meet our emotional needs and we need to meet theirs in order to have a happy, fulfilling marriage.


In your opinion, what differentiates these 'needs' and being 'needy', emotionally dependent, or co-dependent?

So much of what I've read cautions against looking to others to meet our emotional needs.



Jessica38 said:


> These needs should be met by your spouse in order to create feelings of love.


While this rings somewhat true, I, again, am getting the message from everywhere (including our marriage therapist) that love changes over time, and that what initially created feelings of love gives way to something more, I don't know, practical? That real love isn't about who the other person is or what they do, but just about accepting things as they are.




Jessica38 said:


> If you're no longer expecting, giving, and receiving these needs in your marriage, chances are one or both of you will fall out of love.


And this I understand. I haven't felt 'in love' with my wife for years, even as I continue to care about her and her well-being (I liken it to how I feel about other members of my family - she's more like a sibling to me than anything else). Our marriage counselor has indicated that that 'caring' I have for my wife is what real love is all about. 

I've also been resentful about the loss of feeling 'in love', a feeling that was strongly, almost compulsively and unconditionally, present for fifteen years.

I remember how concerned I was for her when she was giving birth to our son. I would have done anything (and did do a lot - way more than I was comfortable doing) to ease her burdens and to ensure her safety. I felt her pain as if it were my own. That was the last time I felt that way, and I *miss* feeling that way about her. I miss the feelings she inspired in me, though one of the things I feel like I need to work on is not relying on her to inspire those feelings, but to find my own inspiration to feel that way.




Jessica38 said:


> This is a separate issue- is your spouse treating you badly? Is she getting angry? If so, that's a problem in the marriage that needs to be addressed before you try to meet her needs and request that she meet yours. There is no excuse for angry outbursts/mistreatment in marriage.


Less than she used to, for sure. 

Part of that might be her own transformation, but I can't help but feel that part of it is that she herself has just kind of given up. She has always been 'strong' and super independent, and I think she has resigned herself to living the rest of her life being independent (part of why I think I should probably be following suit). 

Another part is that I do my best to just get **** done and to stay out of her way. I don't really interact with her as much, and when I do I make sure I have my **** locked down *tight*, so therefore there aren't as many reasons for conflict.




Jessica38 said:


> What are her complaints?


The big ones?

I am too 'needy' and emotionally exhausting. I expect too much from her. 

I rely on her being my 'cheerleader.'

I'm selfish, possibly narcissistic.

She feels like she has to be my mother. She wants me to be stronger and more self-sufficient.

She feels like I'm competing with our son for her love/attention (a competition that she tells me I will always lose). 

She wishes I would just be happy.

She wishes I would do more and accomplish more in life, that I would get more done, and that I would stop thinking about I need from others and focus more on making bigger contributions.

She wishes that I would just accept that our relationship/marriage is different now.

I could go on and on, but those are some of the biggies. I don't even begrudge her those complaints, but I wish I could figure out my way forward in this new 'love.'


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> The ladder is needy.


BTW, I just have to say that this typo has given me some much needed levity. Apparently even the goddamned ladder is needy around my house, lol...

Thanks


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> I'm not sure why you think you should not expect your wife to fill some of your emotional needs. You both have some number of needs that you can reasonable expect for the other to meet.


Everything I've been reading seems to say that expecting others to meet your emotional needs is a sign of emotional dependency/co-dependency/neediness. That the only person who can meet our emotional needs is ourselves.

If you google 'overcoming emotional dependency', there are scores of articles describing the danger of relying on others for what can only come from within.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> BTW, I just have to say that this typo has given me some much needed levity. Apparently even the goddamned ladder is needy around my house, lol...
> 
> Thanks


And it pisses me off, because it pings my OCD... :grin2:

Damn voice to text...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

So, if it is one's responsibility to be completely emotionally independent, why do we bother marrying? Have you asked your wife this question?

It takes more than just the mere presence of somebody in your life to actually make a difference. Love for one another as shown in actions.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Married couples should agree on how the other spends their time. Maybe she's going about it the wrong way, but I don't think discussing how you spend your day and her desire to agree with you on it is wrong. That's just part of being married.


I agree. That's why I try to be so careful with how I spend any free time I might have (which is little, despite my taking time to post here). I try to always stay as productive as I can, though it's hard, given that I'm an extrovert who is by himself (or with my son) 90% of the time. That is the challenge I'm trying to meet.



Jessica38 said:


> Sounds like you get plenty of time to workout/go to the gym?


Where did you get that? 

When I'm not working, I'm busting my ass to take care of the household. Grocery shopping, cooking, clean up, laundry, bills, appointments, yardwork, house repairs (our house is a disaster), car repairs, and on and on. 

Not much time to go anywhere.




Jessica38 said:


> Sounds like more time to "hang out" with a buddy than most married men with children get.


Yes, and for that I'm grateful. It's hard going for days/weeks at a time with no meaningful adult interactions, though. Maybe that's just me. My brain apparently wants adult social interaction.



Jessica38 said:


> All I'm hearing here is how deprived of social "hang out" time you are. I have to ask- what were your expectations when you got married/decided to have children?


Yep, I realize my expectations were apparently way off. I didn't realize how isolating being a parent was.



Jessica38 said:


> You get time to workout and hang out with a buddy


The first is not really a thing, and the second is within the confines of chasing our kids around. It's not like we can get into any kind of substantial conversations when there are interruptions every few minutes.



Jessica38 said:


> maybe you need to focus on spending more time with your wife?


That would be great, but that is where I'm 'needy.' I *want* more time with my wife. Not happening.




Jessica38 said:


> Do you spend at least 15 hours a week of quality, one on one time with her?


No. Of course not. We're parents, lol. Where are we going to find that time?

I'd say that we're lucky to get 15 hours of dedicated 'us' time every three months, let alone every week.

For the first few years, we barely talked to each other, ever, except five minutes to address our grievances or concerns (which were rarely ever resolved, given that it's hard to resolve things in five minutes.

It's getting a little better. We can now have conversations that last 10-15 minutes, and we get a short 'date night' about once a month or so.

I would of course like more (that's the whole point of my post), but I also don't want to be seen as 'needy' or 'selfish.'



Jessica38 said:


> Maybe try focusing on the pleasure you get from raising your child and being a good husband?


Again, that's what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to shed the dependency I have on her and just be happy taking care of my family.

I have come a long ways, but I still miss things like intimacy, affection, sex, etc., and the absence of those things still cause me to feel depressed about my life (and yes, I realize that that is a self-centered view).

How does one truly find fulfillment of those 'needs' from within, with no expectation/need from others?



Jessica38 said:


> Not once in this post have you said you'd like more time with your wife.


I feel like that is the whole point of my original post. That's one of the big sources of my 'neediness.' Perhaps I'm not communicating properly. 

And this is exactly the opposite of what most people council, which is to stop looking to a spouse to provide those things and to 'spread the love around.'



Jessica38 said:


> I'd guess that she's feeling alone in her marriage.


I don't know. Maybe? One of her big complaints is my complaining about feeling alone, which is why I'm trying to develop my own ability to be alone and to be self-sufficient/self-reliant.



Jessica38 said:


> Honestly, you sound like you need to step it up for the sake of your family.


I don't disagree. How do you see me implementing that most effectively? 

One of the biggest is to stop looking to my wife to provide for my 'needs', but I'm sure there are other ways.




Jessica38 said:


> Complaining that you don't get enough time to hang out with your friends because your family takes up too much of your time while you work part-time is not attractive at all.


I agree. So how does one develop the ability to not need friends and the kinds of intimate connections that come with them? Just do more work?



Jessica38 said:


> If you want your marriage to work, you need to stop being so self-centered and work with your wife instead of against her.


I agree. Which is why I'm looking at how to be emotionally independent and to not need her for my own sense of fulfillment in life. My finding fulfillment on my own would probably be the greatest asset to my wife.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> So, if it is one's responsibility to be completely emotionally independent, why do we bother marrying? Have you asked your wife this question?
> 
> It takes more than just the mere presence of somebody in your life to actually make a difference. Love for one another as shown in actions.


Don't mean to be ignoring your excellent previous post (I will respond when I can sit down and really engage), but yeah, that's my big question. If we can get to the point where we meet our own needs, what is the role of marriage? Just the opportunity to give those things to others, should they ever want them? 

Again, there seems to be some needs that others can help fulfill (sex really comes to mind, but many would argue it's not a 'need'), but I don't understand how those others fit in.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> In your opinion, what differentiates these 'needs' and being 'needy', emotionally dependent, or co-dependent?
> 
> So much of what I've read cautions against looking to others to meet our emotional needs.
> 
> ...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Start with His Needs, Her Needs (download it today) and sit down with your wife and plan 15 hours a week of undivided attention with her. Date your wife.


Sounds dreamy. How do you accomplish that when it's been made clear that you are not her priority?

She already feels like she isn't getting to be the mother she wants to be (she often sleeps with him at night because she misses him so much all day), and I feel her pain. I don't see how pressuring her to spend *less* time on our son is going to accomplish anything other than to reinforce how needy I am (you yourself have cautioned me against holding unrealistic expectations). I keep trying to find more ways to give her *more* time with him. That's why I try to take care of as much household responsibilities as I possibly can. 



Jessica38 said:


> The good part is that this comes more naturally to most women


Seriously? Once a woman has lost respect for a man, I don't see them doing that sort of thing 'naturally.' If anything, it's men who are more naturally inclined to want to take care of their women. Women see needing to take care of their man as a deficiency on his part. Women hate men that they feel they need to take care of. That's why the 'bad boys' are so attractive.



Jessica38 said:


> That will change once you're willing to do the work.


Such as? I mean, that's the whole point of my working hard to overcome my emotional dependencies. If I can be independent, she won't feel pressured by me into having to be someone for me. She feels smothered and overwhelmed by me already.




Jessica38 said:


> You can change that if you go back to that point where you were in love with her and showing her great care and would do anything for her.


Are you suggesting I double-down on being the 'nice guy'? I've already been doing that - it's totally counter-productive. While she appreciates all of the support I give her, it doesn't make her feel amorous.



Jessica38 said:


> or ways for her to work but spend all weekend just having fun with the family instead of running errands and doing chores


Did you miss the part where I work my ass off to get as many chores done as I can so she *can* have extra time with my son on weekends? She and he usually go off to do some activity together while I stay home and take care of the house. I'm not sure how much more I can do.

Don't get me wrong - I totally appreciate and hold sacred her need to spend time with our son, and his need to be with her as much as possible (he worships the ground she walks on). It's a big reason why we aren't divorced. So this isn't necessarily a problem, but I feel like I'm doing everything I can.

Though I know that there is always more I can do. Like not being on the internet trying to solve my problems, lol.



Jessica38 said:


> She hasn't accepted it either, which is why she is telling you she is unhappy.


I think she has. She's mostly unhappy because *I'm* unhappy. She just wishes I could be happy knowing that we are doing everything we can to raise our son right. She feels that I'm being selfish and narcissistic by 'demanding' that our marriage be different (and more like it was). And, as you say, I probably am.



Jessica38 said:


> I read that you're in the best shape of your life


I was when our marital troubles started. But that was before having a kid. 

Now I'm in about the worst shape of my life, and sleep deprived most of the time to boot.




Jessica38 said:


> you're just not sure how to do it with a wife who is likely depressed too.


She is. Having a stressful job, a depressed/'needy' husband, and never enough time with the love of her life (our son) is hurting her a lot.

Trust me, if I could jumpstart my now dead career and start making the big bucks so she could have more freedom and happiness, I would do it in a heart beat.

I just haven't figured out how to work, take care of everything and everyone in the household, and go back to school or whatever all at the same time. While dealing with my own sense of 'neediness', loneliness, and depression. It just seems impossible...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> It is a kind of self-actualization I'm talking about, I guess. Achieving a high-level of self-actualization undoubtedly allows one to stay mentally and emotionally independent from others while still living in complex relationships with them. I can imagine a truly self-actualized individual needs nothing from others and can probably do a great job of not allowing themselves to be adversely affected by others in their life.
> 
> If you need nothing from others, they have no power over you.


Yikes!  "They have no power over you?" 

This looks relationship as a battle for supremacy.

Have you gotten counselling? Had any underlying issues identified?

Because that thinking is possibly a bit off.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> This looks relationship as a battle for supremacy.


Maybe.

Or, it's just a normal move to be emotionally self-sufficient.

If I am protective of my own emotional well-being, no one outside myself can have a negative impact on it. 

No one can hurt you unless you let them. That sort of thing.

And one of the easiest way for others to hurt you is to expect something of them or from them. Hurting you doesn't even have to be something that they are *trying* to do. Most people don't *want* to hurt other people - we mostly hurt ourselves. No expectations, no upsets.


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## kag123 (Feb 6, 2012)

Do I have this right -

She expected to be the stay at home mom, and then you suddenly lost your job and by circumstance became the stay at home dad because you needed her income? 

How much of your problems do you think are a result of her grieving the life she pictured for herself that didn't come to be? 

In my marriage, we've been through the ringer financially a few times, particularly in the economic meltdown around 2008. We are both skilled and both work doing whatever needs to be done to bring home money. If one of us is able to secure higher paying work, we take it - doesn't matter if that one had a dream of being the one to stay home. We consider it part of being an adult. 

Has she been doing any counselling just for herself? She sounds like she's got her own issues to unpack. 

What does your marriage counselor actually say to you in terms of advice?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dazed,

Some twenty thousand foot observations for you. You are smart and clearly determined to improve your situation. Very good raw materials. Now for the bad news. 

You had a long and glorious honeymoon my man - just the two of you. Money was easy, free time plentiful. In a way it spoiled you. Reason I say that is you have one child - and yet you self describe as being on the ragged edge in terms of free time, money etc. 

It seems like you:
Had a child
Lost your job right around that time

This put your wife into an intensely stressful situation. She resents the heck out of being forced into the primary breadwinner role. And then career wise - she sees you as either unable or un willing to get a comparable job to what you had before. 

Your lack of financial support stresses her out like the lack of sex stresses you out. 

The subtext of her nasty jibes about how you spend your time is actually: I'm angry that you aren't financially contributing as much as I expect. 

What strikes me as odd - is the way you have seemingly danced around that topic. Because I don't see a way to repair the marriage without addressing her resentments about your financial contribution. 












Dazedconfuzed said:


> Yep, thanks. That's the challenge, and I totally get it. Hence the initial question of how to find what I need in the mirror instead of looking for something from others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

"Are you suggesting I double-down on being the 'nice guy'?"

Nope, that's not what I suggested at all. I suggested you follow a plan to restore the love in your marriage if you intend to save it.

If you don't, then continue the "work" you're already doing of emotionally divorcing your wife.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

"Are you suggesting I double-down on being the 'nice guy'? I've already been doing that - it's totally counter-productive. While she appreciates all of the support I give her, it doesn't make her feel amorous."

This is why you need to spend 15 hours a week dating her. Domestic support is listed as a top 10 need by many spouses- but it's not an intimate need. While your wife likely appreciates all you do, it meets her intimate emotional needs about as well as her financial support meets your need for sex.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

"

No. Of course not. We're parents, lol. Where are we going to find that time?

I'd say that we're lucky to get 15 hours of dedicated 'us' time every three months, let alone every week."

My husband and I manage to get 15 hours a week together- and we have all the same household/work (husband works ft) responsibilities plus we have 2 kids who are both in time-consuming sports. But we didn't make time last year, and started feeling like roommates. So we prioritized. We workout together, go on 2 dates a week, and have our morning coffee just the two of us. It's not easy, but the average adult watches 4 hours/TV daily. We don't watch TV.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

"Seriously? Once a woman has lost respect for a man, I don't see them doing that sort of thing 'naturally.' If anything, it's men who are more naturally inclined to want to take care of their women. Women see needing to take care of their man as a deficiency on his part. Women hate men that they feel they need to take care of. That's why the 'bad boys' are so attractive."

Women will put up with a lot in a marriage (alcolohism, addiction, abuse), but neglect is why many women leave. You and your wife have fallen out of love. You seem to think you can't get it back, but I'm telling you, you're in a MUCH better position to win your wife back than most who've managed to do so.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> "While your wife likely appreciates all you do, it meets her intimate emotional needs about as well as her financial support meets your need for sex.


First, I'm not at all convinced that she feels that her 'intimate needs' are being neglected. Mostly, she doesn't want a downer around the house (which is why I'm looking for ways to turn that around without needing anything from my wife). I think a lot of her intimate needs are being met by our son, but mostly, I think she doesn't really have much need for intimacy (she has always said as much). She just wants someone who is happy with her and supports her when she needs it (and it's hard for her to ask for support, as I've learned).

I mean, it took her a whole year and a half after my son was born to come forward to me with how much of a failure she felt like for having such a difficult and stressful birth (our son's birth was a nightmare, and was pretty much completely opposite from our 'birth plan'). Just having that conversation meant a lot to me, as it gave me a chance to reassure and comfort her. I know it still bothers her, but she doesn't want to bring it up with me again (came out in our marriage counseling again recently). Mostly, I'm guessing, because she still blames me for 'abandoning her' and not being more supportive while she was pregnant (which is not a baseless accusation, but it also discounts my own struggles and confusion with her 'strange' and capricious behavior). 

Secondly, I'm afraid that my asking her to give 15 hours a week (?!?) to me would just further bolster how 'needy' and 'narcissistic' I am, how I am only thinking about what I want/need and not about what my son needs or what she needs.

Early on, she tried to set up a few 'duty dates' here and there with me (she refused to leave our son with a babysitter, so it was usually when her mom would come visit), but I resented the fact that she was only setting them up because she thought I would consider it neglectful if she didn't. I wanted her to *want* to go on a date with me. It was hard to be ignored by her for weeks on end and then be offered a date, as though that would make up for it. 

Now, looking back, I should have supported even 'duty' attempts to give me what I need. I let my pride get in the way ("I don't want your pity!") and I regret that, as it just gave her more reason to write me off ("Look, even when I try to do things for your sake, you won't accept it, so why bother?"). These days, I don't ever say no to anything - dates, sex (not that it's ever really offered), time together, whatever. She has recently gotten a little more interested in trying to find time, about once a month or so. But I don't push for anything because I don't want to be seen as 'needy.'

How do I suggest setting up 15 hours a week without setting her off about how I expect too much of her?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

You are the right track -- the thing you can change, and the thing that will make all the difference in your life, and may still make a sea change in how she feels towards you (though that is only a secondary effect) is in yourself. Focus on what is going on inside of you, and compassionately and unapologetically take care of the parts of you that experience the feelings you don't seem to like (neediness, dependency, for instance), and you will morph into a person that is at ease with himself, and confident in his worth and ability to be happy, independent of this or any other one woman's response.

I highly recommended the book "You are the one you've been waiting for", by Richard Schwartz, from which I quote here:

"Summary
Because we’ve covered so much territory, I will summarize the main themes before we move more concretely toward solutions. We have all learned to exile the parts of us that carry attachment injuries from childhood, including those related to traumas but also the parts of us that threatened or didn’t fit into our families. These exiles carry extreme beliefs and emotions regarding intimate relationships and are guarded by other parts that protect them. We have been led to believe that our partner is the one who will, at long last, make our exiles feel good.
The above is a setup, for many reasons. First, not only can’t our partner permanently unload the worthlessness and pain our exiles carry, but, at some point, he or she is likely to hurt us, too, by causing an attachment re-injury. Second, our culture is full of beliefs and forces that increase our dependence on our partner and constrain our ability to be fully present with him. Third, we generally select our partner for the wrong reasons and from the wrong parts.
Inevitably, our partner hurts our exiles, which triggers our protectors to start one of their three projects: changing our partner, changing ourselves, or giving up. Because of those projects as well as other reasons, both we and our partner wind up with neo-exiles that resent being shut out of the relationship and try to sabotage it. After enough hurt, the protectors of each partner come to permanently dominate the relationship, and the couple enters “negative override.” They no longer initiate bids for a affection and reject any that are initiated. Their conflicts become characterized by the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse: criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. The relationship is doomed.
There is a solution to this dilemma, and in the second half of the book we will get practical about achieving it. Thus far, I have hinted at this solution and will review those hints here.
It is possible to become the primary caretaker of your own exiles so that your partner is freed up to be their secondary caretaker. Everything improves once this has been achieved. To get there,..."


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

"How do I suggest setting up 15 hours a week without setting her off about how I expect too much of her?"

I'd suggest getting that book first before you approach her. The idea is not asking her to do more for her. It's addressing the issues in your marriage from a place she will respect- you're actively presenting a plan to improve your marriage in a way that will make you both happy. 

In the meantime, figure out the job thing. I know you're trying- does she know? Let her know what you said, that you'd do anything to ease the burden she's carrying to give her more time w your son. You have a plan and are laser-focused on that while ALSO meeting her VERY high need for quality family time. Whenever you're not working PT and caring for the home, you're coming up with fun family activities. This gives your wife positive feelings of love for you while allowing her to be w your child. 

But don't skip the book. Your wife cannot possibly be getting her intimate needs met that should be met by her spouse from her son. Please listen when I tell you, your wife is missing the "in love" feelings too. This is why she doesn't want to have sex right now. You can turn this around if you focus on the right things and stick to a plan.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

I can't edit my previous post from my iPhone for some reason, so adding this here:

*The idea isn't to ask her to do more for you. 

Start by making sure you spend 15-20 or more hours a week quality family time. This will allow you to be close to your wife to rebuild her love for you while giving her time with your son.

Make this time fun for all 3 of you. Hiking, parks, family soccer, etc. Few things are more attractive to a mom who adores her child than watching her husband play with him. Be affectionate, positive, upbeat. Try to make positive comments about steps you're taking to find more work if she receives this well. Do this for a month while you read the book and put together plans for work/financial/marital without expecting anything in return.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It is true that playing and having fun are good. 

Teaching your child stuff - is even better. 




Jessica38 said:


> I can't edit my previous post from my iPhone for some reason, so adding this here:
> 
> *The idea isn't to ask her to do more for you.
> 
> ...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

@farsidejunky - **** **** mother****! I just wrote out a long and detailed response to your post, and my browser crashed. I will try to get back to it as soon as I can, as I sincerely appreciate your effort. Don't know when that will be, but know that I have taken it to heart and haven't ghosted...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Start by making sure you spend 15-20 or more hours a week quality family time.


This is more doable, as we already try our best to do things as a family whenever we can, which isn't as often as we'd like (pretty much limited to weekends), given that the time my wife has for things like going on hikes, etc., is also the only time she has to handle her own responsibilities/needs, and it's also time that I can spend doing things like getting dinner ready for when my wife and son get back from their hike. 



> This will allow you to be close to your wife to rebuild her love for you while giving her time with your son.


This I'm not sure about. One, because we already do this some, and two, because she claims that her love for me isn't an issue. She often tells me (and even others) that she loves me. As far as I can tell, it's an attraction/respect thing, not a love thing.



> Few things are more attractive to a mom who adores her child than watching her husband play with him.


It of course warms her heart to watch me and my son. I'm not sure it does anything to make me more attractive or to make her want to be more intimate.

I mean, I think *ideally* she'd like to find a way to be more intimate, but it's just not one of her top priorities. She doesn't have much left for anyone else (including herself) after her career and being a mother. And, of course, my own pain/protectiveness doesn't help, but after so many years of being not her priority (not that I can't appreciate why), I am just cautious about getting too close/dependent/'needy' again. I've allowed myself to get hurt too many times. Hence my desire to stop looking to her for what I want. 

I would love to get to the point where I can enjoy what others give me when they feel they can (my wife would love it if I was like this around sex/intimacy - "Why can't you just be happy for those times when sex does happen, rather than bemoan the fact that it doesn't happen more?"), and be self-sufficient the rest of the time. Sex/intimacy is one of those tripping points for me - not only do I not really desire her anymore (my attraction to her has certainly waned), but I'm not sure how much I want to enflame that desire. It's hard to be around someone that I regularly desire to be with sexually/intimately but not have that desire reciprocated except every once and a while when the stars align for her. In her words, she lives from the basis that "When I'm hot, I'm hot, and when I'm not, I'm not." And 'not' is kind of her default mode all the time.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The site crashes on posting often. 

I either:
- write all long responses in a word processor or
- repeatedly copy my whole response every single time I complete a paragraph (at most I lose one paragraph)





Dazedconfuzed said:


> @farsidejunky - **** **** mother****! I just wrote out a long and detailed response to your post, and my browser crashed. I will try to get back to it as soon as I can, as I sincerely appreciate your effort. Don't know when that will be, but know that I have taken it to heart and haven't ghosted...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> "We workout together, go on 2 dates a week, and have our morning coffee just the two of us.


I have no idea how you manage this.

Mornings are about getting my wife and kid out the door - she takes him to school on her way to work. There is little, if any, time to 'hang out' in the mornings.

We *might* be able to do 2 date nights a week, but they would have to be on the weekends (and my wife is usually pretty tired on Fridays). Three nights a week, she gets home in time to eat dinner and spend a little time with my son and I before it's time to get him (and her) to bath and bed (usually later than we would ideally like). By the time he is taken care of and asleep, either she's asleep with him (if she puts him to bed) or she is in bed/needing to go to to bed (if I put him to bed). Every once in a blue moon she's awake enough that we can sit on the couch together and watch a short TV show or something together (which feels like a date night or a vacation or special occasion or something, lol). Two nights a week, I work at my part-time job until after dinner time, so I get home in time to maybe grab a quick bite and catch up for a few minutes on everyone's day before helping with the bedtime routine, which is usually want I really to do anyway, given that I haven't seen my son all day - I want to cuddle up with him to read his bedtime stories and what not, even if i don't ultimately end up helping him go to sleep. 




> It's not easy, but the average adult watches 4 hours/TV daily. We don't watch TV.


Yeah, that statistic has always baffled me. Even when we were childless, there is no way we watched TV everyday, let alone spent 4 hours doing so. And we have always had a high-quality home theater system, lol (we're film buffs). These days, we might watch 4 hours of TV over six months or more. It's a rare luxury treat, not a regular activity. 

We definitely spend little time on frivolous stuff like watching TV.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

I think you need to talk to your wife about realistically meeting you halfway to improve your marriage. I get the sense you don't want to be vulnerable to her and admit you need her, so she may not know how much she's hurting you.

And, you don't seem to want to hear that your wife's love for you IS the problem- attraction is part of having feelings of love and motivates us to meet each other's needs. Your wife is telling you you're too "needy" when you try to get her to meet your needs. This is a huge problem for both of you.

Sinc your wife doesn't seem to be willing (or may not fully understand how necessary it is) to work with you to improve your marriage, I still think you have a great chance at motivating her by meeting her where she's at (primarily focused on saving her limited energy for your son) until she is ready to do so.

You have to take the lead here, but it will require that you make different changes than emotionally divorcing her. Focus on being positive, attentive, and light when you commit to spending quality family time together. Use the opportunity to be affectionate and interested in her. Give it a month without making any extra demands. Get your plan in place and let her know you're actively moving forward to ease her burden. 

Then, when she's feeling more positive about you and feeling more attracted/respectful, she will be more motivated to meet you halfway in improving the marriage (and meeting your needs). Your wife likely has a high need for financial support, a need you're not able to meet fully right now. She's watching you struggle with this. She's standing by you, but most women have a hard time watching their husband's struggle w anxiety/depression. It scares them and is a serious libido killer.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It isn't possible to understand your frame of reference because - when we had three (3) kids we had time for:
- Sex 5 times a week
- TV - a couple hours a day on the weekends 

I have never seen anyone with a single child (in school) describe their schedule as so utterly - constrained. 

So far - what you've said that is true is that your wife doesn't respect you (clearly true), radiates disapproval at how you DO spend your time (without ever sharing any specifics as to what she disapproves of), and is completely unconcerned with your level of marital satisfaction. 

My experience on TAM is as follows: 
- Posters who carefully avoid specifics (which you have done)
- And focus on why they are unhappy - as opposed to why their spouse is unhappy with them

Claim to want assistance but are mainly looking for sympathy. 

Far will try and help you - and I hope he succeeds. As for me, well, this will be my last post since I am not seeing any real willingness to take a hard look in the mirror. 




Dazedconfuzed said:


> I have no idea how you manage this.
> 
> Mornings are about getting my wife and kid out the door - she takes him to school on her way to work. There is little, if any, time to 'hang out' in the mornings.
> 
> ...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Interesting response. Not sure where you are coming from, and I'm not sure if you have a question in there or are just registering a general complaint, but I can get off a quick response right now if you need a show of good faith. I realize I have not been able to respond to everyone yet - I plan on getting responses written as quickly as I can.




MEM2020 said:


> It isn't possible to understand your frame of reference because - when we had three (3) kids we had time for:
> - Sex 5 times a week
> - TV - a couple hours a day on the weekends


Awesome for you. I haven't been able to find a way to make that happen. I'm not sure if you just felt the need to crow about your achievements, but maybe you could also offer advice on how you are able to make that happen?



> I have never seen anyone with a single child (in school) describe their schedule as so utterly - constrained.


Well, the quick outline I gave above is more or less what our life looks like, so you now have the dubious distinction of having seen someone describe their schedule as being that utterly-constrained. Is there something in the description that makes you think I'm being dishonest?



> So far - what you've said that is true is that your wife doesn't respect you (clearly true)


Pretty much. Not that I blame her.



> radiates disapproval at how you DO spend your time


I wouldn't say that it's a blanket disapproval. It's more scrutinizing and judging and scorekeeping, based in frustration and resentment. An attitude perhaps along the lines of "with all that needs to be done, what are you getting done now?" or "I don't get to do things I would like to do, why should you?" or "why would you choose to do that when there are all these other things that need doing?" 

I think she has had a lot of anxiety and angst regarding her/our life and how it's being managed, especially since having a kid. For example, for a long time, it looked like we were going to have to sell our house (and possibly need to buy a more expensive house) and move just to get our son into a decent school. She pounded the pavement every day and finally got him into a good school without us having to buy a new house. But that was an almost two year process, during which time we both lost a lot of sleep.

That's the backdrop of her mentality, I think, for better or for worse.




> (without ever sharing any specifics as to what she disapproves of)


I'm sorry, did someone ask? I don't know that there are that many specifics (I do have one semi-regular hobby, and it happens to drive her completely nuts), but more a general feeling on my part of not measuring up or never spending my time appropriately and/or productively. 



> and is completely unconcerned with your level of marital satisfaction.


I wouldn't say she is unconcerned. She tells me all the time that she just wants me to be happy. She just feels like she is doing everything she can do right now, and I'm an adult and should be able to take care of myself. She acknowledges that our marriage probably isn't ideal for either of us right now, but that's just how it goes sometimes when there are more important matters that need her attention and energy. 



> My experience on TAM is as follows:
> - Posters who carefully avoid specifics (which you have done)


How have I 'carefully' avoided specifics? I will answer questions as they are asked, and as quickly as I can (I admit that losing one huge response I carefully wrote out earlier today was a major setback in this little project). 

I started the thread with a general question as to how people achieve 'emotional independence' and how they overcome being emotionally dependent on their spouse, as that seems to be what is needed in my situation and what is recommended in general. I'm not sure how to be specific in that, as I'm not clear what those end states look like (which is why I asked the question).



> And focus on why they are unhappy - as opposed to why their spouse is unhappy with them


Perhaps my frustrations are coming out, so I'm not making things clear, but I'm pretty sure I started out describing how my spouse is unhappy with my 'neediness' and my emotional dependency. She would be much happier if I would just be more self-sufficient in meeting my own needs. I'm looking for how other people have been able to avoid 'neediness' and emotional dependency, how they have achieved their own emotional independence such that they don't have to look to their marriage to meet their needs.

I'm not seeing my wife as the 'villian' in this narrative. I know that she is doing all she can. 



> Claim to want assistance but are mainly looking for sympathy.


I've vented, yes. I'm sure my frustration and overwhelm is apparent. But I've also asked many questions, some of which have been answered, some haven't. And clearly some have a different perspective on the role of marriage in meeting an individual needs. Where I have a question on their different perspective, I have either asked, or am in the process of asking.



> As for me, well, this will be my last post since I am not seeing any real willingness to take a hard look in the mirror.


What does taking a hard look in the mirror look like to you? What expectation do you have of what I should see? Clearly you have arrived at at least some conclusions already. I'm guessing that they are aligned with what Far wrote (in which case I would agree - I think he was on point with a lot of it, something I intend to write up in more detail tomorrow).


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Dazed:

Two things:

1, @MEM2020 was without question one of the most helpful people in my journey of self discovery.

2, getting defensive towards him is not helping you.

I would suggest you take another look at his posts to you. I would argue that many of your questions in that last post will be answered.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

If you don't mind am outsider to the discussion poking in...

MEM says he and his wife had sex 5 times a week when they had three kids and can't understand why there is so little time in the OPs life for some sex or some TV. 

I think the difference is that OPs wife seems to go to bed at 8 pm and that is why there is so little time for them to have together. Am I correct?


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Am I correct?


Essentially, yes. My son's bedtime is the end of the evening for us, whether it is because she falls asleep with him or because she is usually ready to fall asleep by the time I finish getting him to sleep.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> getting defensive towards him is not helping you.


Fair enough.

I just went back and read his post again. I was not intentionally trying to avoid it, I just hadn't gotten to responding to it yet. I'll address his concerns (which are valid) now.

Then I'll respond (again, hopefully with no loss of text) to your last post, lol. I sat with your post last night, and in addition to some other reading, I think I can say that I'm actually starting to feel cracks in the deadlock I've been maintaining for so long. Something is shifting inside me. Which came as a surprise, honestly, and is quite significant, given how long I've been struggling and trying to make a shift happen. Thanks.

*EDIT:* added a very much needed *not* - 'I was *not* intentionally trying to avoid it...' FFS... :smh:


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > Am I correct?
> ...


What time does she get up in the morning? How many hours of sleep does she get a night?


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

So I'll start by saying that I apologize if you thought I was avoiding your post - I appreciated it and was looking forward to responding, which I can now do.



MEM2020 said:


> In a way it spoiled you.


Funny you should say that - my wife said she feels like she spent our long relationship together pre-kid spoiling me, and she now regrets that. That was painful to hear, as I didn't necessarily see her as spoiling me and didn't feel like I that was necessarily demanding in our marriage, but there it is.



> Reason I say that is you have one child - and yet you self describe as being on the ragged edge in terms of free time, money etc.


I get that. In fact, that has been a huge frustration for both of us. "Why do we seem to be so bad at this?" is an oft-asked question. We certainly seem to be struggling more than many parents. 

OTOH, a lot of others in our community had kids around the same time, and I would say that as many of them have divorced as have stayed together (if not more, actually - it's depressing as hell), and of the one's that are left, a lot of them are experiencing similar difficulties/have similar complaints. Not a whole lot of happy couples with young kids around us.



> It seems like you:
> Had a child
> Lost your job right around that time


Lost my job at the height of the recession, which meant that similar jobs were not to be found. I applied for probably close to 200 positions over two years, and came up empty handed.

At the same time, we moved into a bigger house so we could start a family (which just added to the financial insecurity). 

As I was in the process of starting my own business (another thing that added to my wife's sense of financial insecurity), my dad dropped dead, and I had to drop everything and spend the next six months or so wrapping up his business and trying to keep my mom (who lives 14 hours away) from destroying herself. No one was happy in that situation - my mom and brother felt like I wasn't doing enough, while my wife was trying to get me to focus on starting our family instead. 

By the time I had that situation stabilized, we were pregnant, I still wasn't working, and starting a business looked both too time consuming and too financially risky. We took it as an opportunity for me to be the SAHP, something I had a deep ambivalence about doing (for good reason, turns out), with the idea that I would soon go back to work. The baby was higher maintenance than we expected (and higher maintenance than other babies, based on the experience of parents around us), and work was still scarce, so I ended up being the SAHP for longer than either of us anticipated (we both also had a very hard time thinking about sending him to daycare - it just didn't sit well with either of us). After a year and half, I found a good opportunity to work part-time in order to relieve some of the pressure on my wife. Didn't really seem to help her stress or attitude much, though.

*EDIT:* I should add that I wasn't being entirely insensitive to my wife's anxieties by only going part-time. She in no way wanted to leave my son in the full-time care of someone else. It took us a while to feel comfortable enough leaving him with a nanny in our own home a couple days a week. 

A few years later now, I'm still working part-time, but part of that has been because my having a flexible schedule and a less-demanding job (that pays quite well for something part-time with some flexibility and lower demands) has been helpful. I try to take care of everything I can on the domestic front (except for things like finding schools and summer camps and activities for my son, which my wife takes the lead on, fortunately) and am available to handle emergencies (like taking care of our son when he gets sick, which seems to happen like once a month or so) when she is at work. 



> This put your wife into an intensely stressful situation. She resents the heck out of being forced into the primary breadwinner role. And then career wise - she sees you as either unable or un willing to get a comparable job to what you had before.


This is unequivocal, yes. I fully aware. I killed me (still does) to see her suffer so much while I had almost nothing to offer to ease her suffering. I've never felt such shame in my life. 

As far as being willing, I would love to become the career man I was before. I'm old, I've been out of the workforce for seven + years, and I have little to offer in the way of immediate skills. Getting back on top and becoming a serious breadwinner (matching or exceeding my wife such that she could relax and do what makes her feel more fulfilled in life) would seem to take a lot of resources (time and money) at a time when the resource need is immediate and resources severely limited. I am trying to figure out how I can go to school, work part-time, and still support my wife and son by making sure the homefront needs are met. 

Last night, however, I started to feel something shift. I get that things might suck right now, that I might feel hopeless and alone and insufficient to the task, but my wallowing in my loneliness and misery and depression probably drains enough time and energy from my life that, were it to stop, I would regain enough time and energy to at least get a good handle on and kick some ass around my current responsibilities (which would make me feel a whole lot better about myself), and might even give me enough to take on the project of developing my professional skills such that I can provide for my family again. Whatever the outcome, I realize that a lot of time and energy is getting wasted on me not accepting my circumstances. 



> Your lack of financial support stresses her out like the lack of sex stresses you out.


Totally clear on that. That's part of why I stopped complaining about our sexless marriage a long time ago. Why should she do for me when I'm not doing for her? 

I have been feeling like having a close, intimate relationship with my wife would give me some much needed inspiration and energy to tackle our challenges. And I'm sure that she feels like my becoming the provider for the family would allow her to respect me again such that closeness and intimacy is possible. And we've been deadlocked for a long time now in those positions. Time for some unilateral action on my part. 



> The subtext of her nasty jibes about how you spend your time is actually: I'm angry that you aren't financially contributing as much as I expect.


Totally. That's why I'm *very* careful not to push back on her too hard when those nasty jibes surface (to her credit, she's also made a concerted effort to keep her mouth shut for several months now, and that's very helpful). 

*EDIT:* Though I should point out that, even though she has been working on keeping her mouth shut, I realize that the underlying problem is still very present for her, so it's not like I'm anywhere near out of the woods.



> What strikes me as odd - is the way you have seemingly danced around that topic.


Maybe. I don't know that I am necessarily dancing around the topic (at least, not intentionally), but I may not have focused on it because A) I get wrapped up in my own shame and hurt before I get to addressing it with focus, and B) I see it as part of a larger problem - that of me being a strong, stoic, independent leader in my/our life and marriage, regardless of whether or not I'm actually a full-on breadwinner. Which is why my first goal is to stop wallowing, and my second goal is to start really kicking ass at what I'm already doing. That alone might make a significant enough difference in breaking up the deadlock to make space for even greater things to happen. 




> Because I don't see a way to repair the marriage without addressing her resentments about your financial contribution.


That's part of it, for sure. But the problem I have with getting stuck in that thinking is that, realistically, I may not ever be able to get back to where I was (or, more importantly, to where she is now, given that she now has a seven-year head start advantage over me). If repairing myself and my marriage is contingent on me becoming the primary breadwinner (or even an equal breadwinner) again, I am not at all certain of what the outcome will be for any of us. 

While accomplishing that can certainly be a goal - an important goal - our marriage has to make it until that happens. Which is why I'm trying to take a more holistic view that addresses what I can do right now to start getting myself out of the hole I found myself in. Focusing on the idea that the only way to fulfillment and respect and connection with others is for me to become a high-powered career guy again just buries me in overwhelm and shame, even if that is in fact the hard truth. I've had a hard time facing up to that, even as I know that if I ever want to have a sex/love/relationship life of any kind again, that's going to have to be there. I know all too well how much contempt women (and not just my wife) have for losers, but I'm struggling to figure out how I can start winning again without becoming an even greater loser. I want to say that it can't get worse, but I know for sure that it can...

*EDITED* for clarification and to correct some ridiculously dumb typos... :smh:


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

What was your previous career field?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Dazed,
You sir have just proven beyond any doubt - that you are neither dazed nor confused. The post below is clear, concise and brutally honest. 

And I apologize for making a competitive comparison - that was wrong of me. The goal here is to collaborate - not compete. 

In that vein I will share my personal experiences. M2 (label scheme for partners here - is to take first letter of screen name and append '2'. Your wife is D2) would tell you I was a very good provider, but a somewhat disengaged parent. Which is painful but true. That said - when I engaged and taught the kids stuff - she loved that. 

There are some truly delightful dinner time games - that teach and entertain. 





Dazedconfuzed said:


> So I'll start by saying that I apologize if you thought I was avoiding your post - I appreciated it and was looking forward to responding, which I can now do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Livvie said:


> What time does she get up in the morning?


Usually around six-thirty or seven. My son and I usually get up an hour or so later. 



> How many hours of sleep does she get a night?


She hasn't slept all that well since having a kid. She's become way more sensitive to noises and what not.

She says that, while she is often in bed for around ten hours, she often wakes up/gets woken up a couple times a night. Sometimes when I come to bed, or, if my son isn't sleeping in our bed already, when my son climbs into our bed in the middle of the night (which he almost always does), so she isn't sleeping soundly the whole time.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

MEM2020 said:


> The post below is clear, concise and brutally honest.


Thank you.

While I'm as susceptible to a desire for validation as anyone, especially when I'm frustrated and hurting (I won't deny that I'm avoiding all validation here), I do want to try to understand better what is going on in life. If I'm not at least somewhat honest (I acknowledge I have a confirmation bias), I have no chance of improving things.



> The goal here is to collaborate - not compete.


I appreciate your commitment. Thanks.



> In that vein I will share my personal experiences. M2 (label scheme for partners here - is to take first letter of screen name and append '2'. Your wife is D2) would tell you I was a very good provider, but a somewhat disengaged parent.


Well, I also usually feel like a disengaged parent. I feel like I'm far too often not entirely present when I am with my son, and that just kills me. Nothing gets my shame reflex going like thinking about how I treat my son.

Part of it is the competition, lol. My MIL is a retired preschool teacher. She is *amazing* with my son. Very focused on him when she is with him and constantly finding ways to engage with him - playing, talking with him, singing songs, creating activities, the works. 

And my wife grew up with a preschool teacher for a mom, so that is her model and she is very similar. Of course, because of that, she desperately wanted to start an in-home daycare for our son, but I would have wound up being primarily responsible for it (since she is the breadwinner), and I just couldn't, sadly (yet another frustration she had with me/our lives/the universe). Not too mention, our house is already overfull with kids stuff everywhere, and I couldn't live with taking that to next level. I wanted *somewhere* to go that wasn't entirely devoted to kids...

So I might be comparing myself to the wrong people, lol.



> There are some truly delightful dinner time games - that teach and entertain.


Sounds great! I'm all about finding teaching opportunities while also having fun with my son. He really is the brightest point in my life, despite all the chaos he creates...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I am not sure it is necessarily a great idea to try to teach kids, or anyone not directly asking for it. 

Just live life with them. Model virtue. Be open to their questions. Seek the answers together.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> New to this forum, but I've lurked a bit and finally thought I might be able to get some direction from this community.
> 
> I've spent a lot of time in the last year or two trying to better understand life and love, and while I've made some progress, I am still struggling, so I thought I might see if anyone else can help me find the answers I'm looking for.
> 
> ...


I need to read the rest of your thread, OP, but wanted to respond to the bolded.

My husband is a naturally confident, secure person. He never did anything to be that way; it is just his natural state.

Now, there are many advantages to having that personality type. It is great for marriage, because he is never needy. Some women, like me, find neediness a complete turn off. So his type and mine complement each other well.

But there are drawbacks, too. Sometimes I feel like I can never really get through to him, can never really make him understand how I feel, in all my own neediness and insecurity. He just cannot relate most of the time. That leaves me feeling lonely and not understood.

Bottom line: no relationship is perfect. We all have challenges we are dealing with. It is probably just part of the human condition. If we did not have challenges, how would we grow? What would be the point to having been born at all?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> It is a kind of self-actualization I'm talking about, I guess. Achieving a high-level of self-actualization undoubtedly allows one to stay mentally and emotionally independent from others while still living in complex relationships with them. *I can imagine a truly self-actualized individual needs nothing from others and can probably do a great job of not allowing themselves to be adversely affected by others in their life. *
> 
> If you need nothing from others, they have no power over you.


I think those people are born that way, though. Most of us are not ultimately going to be that way.

The rest of us might be better off embracing ourselves and loving ourselves in all our fragility.

Jmo.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Maybe.
> 
> Or, it's just a normal move to be emotionally self-sufficient.
> 
> ...


You are certainly right about this, but it is awfully hard for a sensitive person to accomplish.

You really do seem like a sweetheart, OP. You are intelligent and empathetic. I am sure your wife sees the genuineness in you. It is undoubtedly part of what keeps her in the marriage.


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## shrah25 (Mar 22, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> New to this forum, but I've lurked a bit and finally thought I might be able to get some direction from this community.
> 
> I've spent a lot of time in the last year or two trying to better understand life and love, and while I've made some progress, I am still struggling, so I thought I might see if anyone else can help me find the answers I'm looking for.
> 
> ...




Hi Dazedconfuzed

Firstly, can I just commend you for articulating your situation so well and being so honest. It's clear that you have made a conscious effort to take ownership and responsibility for your current circumstances and that is actually the first step on your journey towards self worth, self respect and ultimately, self-love. It's actually really exciting to hear because in all the years i've been working with clients, this is the single more important trait that i've observed in those who have managed to free themselves from the pain that they experience on a regular basis. 

Now before I go on, I want to make a really clear distinction here. Often when individuals embark on this journey and they recognise that they are too reliant on external parties to meet their needs, they end up going from one extreme to another. They believe that they need to be the sole provider of everything and ensure that every perceived negative behaviour from the external party ends up sliding off like teflon. This is actually a slippery slope and it can sometimes backfire and lead to even greater inner resistance. 

Why? Firstly, because we are human beings and it's absolutely ok with having human emotions which vary from joy, happiness, love to anger, frustration, sadness etc. 
Secondly, because we can develop avoidance strategies that prevent us from dealing with the negative feelings. If we don't truly integrate those emotions and feelings, we ultimately suppress them and that eventually comes to the surface again at some point, leading to even bigger problems. 
I'm not saying that you can't approach it like this, but I just wanted to point out some potential warning signs. 

So then that leads us to the question - how do we go about integrating these feelings?

Well, that's a whole other beast and I could go on forever about it however in my professional opinion, there are two key areas that you will need to work on:

1) Truly process these feelings. Discover what your personality is truly craving and the very thing that you are craving from the other person is the very thing that you must develop within yourself. This process is like peeling layers of an onion. As you learn more, you will continue to uncover other hidden gems.

2) At present, you're out of balance in terms of energies. There is too much of a requirement to get your needs met by your wife etc and that needs to be balanced out by truly developing the 'disowned selves' within you. In simple terms, you have over-developed the part of you that is dependent on others, needy etc and under developed the part of you that is self reliant, free-flowing, light-hearted etc 

When you can take this two step approach and make a commitment to developing a true relationship with yourself, you get to experience the magic of life where you, not only, grow and develop yourself, but you then get to truly experience the magic of relationships and be able to recognise their true function - a vehicle for GIVING Love and not getting. However, When you take this approach, you will be amazed at what comes back at you  

So anyway, be patient with the journey. It's not an overnight thing and can sometimes take a bit of time, but when you make a conscious commitment to change, then you are setting the platform for a remarkable life. 

Hope that all makes sense?

All the best
Sri


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Finished your thread. I don't think things look that bad. She definitely sees your value. That is why she is still with you.

Do you see your value?

Your marriage is the way many marriages seem to be evolving these days: female breadwinner, male sahd. Not what either of you expected, but how life seems to be going for more and more folks.

Is your wife disappointed? Sure. Is she coping? Sure. Will you two eventually rebond and appreciate what each other went through? I think so.

Try to be kind to yourself, OP. Keep being kind to your wife. 

And keep being honest with her and with yourself. Again, you seem genuine, and that is something very precious, and worth much more than money.

I did not hear defensiveness in your posts. That is very good.

Take heart, OP. "This too shall pass."


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

heartsbeating said:


> Simplify. Achieve one action.


I was re-reading your post, and it occurred to me - starting this thread is definitely a 'one-action' for me this week, lol. It has helped, for sure.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> Do you see your value?


Not most of the time, no. Depression has something to do with that, I'm sure. 

I do see myself as being able to provide value to my son, and that is important. That is part of why I won't take myself away from him by getting a divorce, and why I try hard to avoid drama and conflict with my wife when he's around.



> Again, you seem genuine, and that is something very precious, and worth much more than money.


Yeah, don't fall too much for my 'nice guy' schtick. I'm not some inauthentic and deceitful brute, but I ain't no wonderful person, either.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> jld said:
> 
> 
> > Do you see your value?
> ...


The best thing a father can do for his child is love his mother. 

You are both putting your son first. This has to stop. You need to focus on improving your marriage.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

kag123 said:


> Do I have this right -
> 
> She expected to be the stay at home mom, and then you suddenly lost your job and by circumstance became the stay at home dad because you needed her income?


In short, yes. We always had this dream of one of us being able to be our children's primary caregiver. I'm not exactly sure *how* we actually thought that was going to happen. Probably something along the lines of my wife staying home but building her own business or something. 

Funny enough, my wife was looking so forward to maternity leave. She had all these plans for starting a 'mommy-blog' or something while also enjoying time with the new baby.

Turns out, her maternity leave time was way shorter than it appeared going in (who knew three months could go by so fast? lol) and we were overwhelmed just trying to keep everyone alive (it took us a couple months just to get breastfeeding going), forget about taking on projects. 

And my wife has always been deeply ambivalent about staying at home vs working. She worked hard all her life (from the time she was 16), and she was raised to have working and being financially independent as her top priority. While she would have loved to be a SAHM, I'm sure, I'm also pretty sure she would have a lot of anxiety about that, also. She doesn't like working, but she doesn't ever want to stop, either. It's kind of a no-win situation.



> How much of your problems do you think are a result of her grieving the life she pictured for herself that didn't come to be?


Many? Most? Same for me.

My wife was not someone I got together with nor married because of some hot passionate lustful attraction. She was attractive, don't get me wrong, but superficially, she wasn't even really my type at the time (she, of course, very much *became* my type over the years). We felt we had a remarkably stable, deep, loving connection, and just thought the world of each other. I was never really the marrying type (I didn't think), and it still took me five years (and some committed inspiring on her part) to propose. 

I actually had a dream that got me into action after she made it clear she was no longer content to just be my girlfriend. In my dream, I met my 'perfect woman.' The woman who checked all the boxes on my 'perfect woman' list that I'd had since I was young. That 'perfect woman' said to me, "Now that we've found each other, when are we going to get married?" I replied, "Right away, of course! You're the perfect woman!" As soon as I said that, I realized that meant my real life partner would be out of my life forever, and I had this experience of a huge black hole open up in my heart. A hole my real life partner had formerly occupied. So I told Miss Perfect, "I'm sorry, I can't. I need to be with someone else."

I woke up from that dream and went out and bought a ring, lol.

So, yeah - I was head over heels in love with my wife for 15 years. I still am not totally clear what constitutes a 'honeymoon phase', because I feel like I had a 15 year honeymoon.

I'm not sure she felt quite the same way, but both of us have had to deal with "How the hell did this happen? Where are we, and how did we get here? This wasn't supposed to happen, ever. What happened to our lives?" Those questions are still being bandied about. She recently reached a pinnacle in her career, and she confessed the other day, "I thought there would be more. I've gotten to where I'm 'supposed' to be, but is this really it?"



> Has she been doing any counselling just for herself? She sounds like she's got her own issues to unpack.


No. Sometimes I wish she would, but she's kind of like a guy. She's not at all comfortable with 'being vulnerable' and 'talking about her feelings' and all that 'emotional crap' (to use her words). Despite the fact that she is still very much a woman, with all the strong feelings and emotional-orientation that often comes with being a woman. 

We're focused on MC for now (my request, after my spending several months in IC without really seeing the progress I wanted to see). We'll see what comes after.



> What does your marriage counselor actually say to you in terms of advice?


Essentially, that I need to build my own strength and my own life, be there for her if she needs me, and to not look to my marriage to help prop me up in life.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Not most of the time, no. Depression has something to do with that, I'm sure.
> 
> I do see myself as being able to provide value to my son, and that is important. That is part of why I won't
> take myself away from him by getting a divorce, and why I try hard to avoid drama and conflict with my wife when he's around.
> ...


I bet you have more qualities than you think. 

Have you ever made a list of all the wonderful things about yourself? 

Think about all the nice things people have told you about yourself over the course of your life. That could be a good thing to refer to when you're feeling down.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> You are both putting your son first. This has to stop. You need to focus on improving your marriage.


Maybe.

The reason I try to take care of so much is so she can give him her love as much as possible. I don't feel like I'm trying to neglect her just to be with him, even if that sometimes happens.

I get the father -> mother -> child dynamic, and I respect it and try to support her in supporting him. I'm just not very good at accomplishing that, I suppose.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Maybe.
> 
> The reason I try to take care of so much is so she can give him her love as much as possible. I don't feel like I'm trying to neglect her just to be with him, even if that sometimes happens.
> 
> I get the father -> mother -> child dynamic, and I respect it and try to support her in supporting him. I'm just not very good at accomplishing that, I suppose.


I bet you are doing a better job than you think.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Finally, has anyone been truly successful at creating such a solid sense of self-respect and self-worth such that no amount of criticism, negativity, or hostility from your partner can shake your feelings about yourself? Are you able to let their opinion of you slide off your back without causing any pain or hurt, either to yourself or to the marriage? If so, what do you think enabled your ability to achieve that?


Hmmm, it's pride; unfortunately a double edged sword









Comes with being a cat!


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Dazed:
> You are a man first, a husband second, and a father third. Those are the order of your priorities. Never forget that.


You and our marriage counselor are of one mind on that, lol. Definitely a goal for me. 

I feel like, before I had a kid (and lost my job), that was more true. My life, my mission, come along for the ride, that sort of thing. Though I really did love being a husband. 

My wife, however, felt that she lost too much of herself in that dynamic, that she just went along with me and 'spoiled me', perhaps even fearful to cross me (though my hand to God I swear that she had a blast most of the time herself), and now the chickens have come home roost, as it were.

Incidentally, if you don't mind my asking, where did you learn that? Is it just conventional wisdom, or is there something more specific?



> The only thing that has changed in this situation is you.


I'm clear on my own failings, yes. 

I specifically avoided MC for a long time because of this. One, because I am actually not a huge fan of marriage counseling in general, but two, because I realized that, no matter where I go, there I am. The problem always starts with me. Get my **** together first, then start working on the things around me. 

I started MC, however, because I realized that I was not making any progress individually, and part of it was the ongoing dysfunction at home. I intend to get back to working on myself solely once my wife and I can stop reactivating each other and walking on eggshells around each other.



> A healthy single parent household is better than modeling a dysfunctional but married family.


And a healthy functional marriage is better than both. 

I don't want to leave when I am at my most disempowered. If I'm going to leave, I want to do so when I'm empowered to do so, not because I can't hack it where I am.



> However, you have to be willing to risk it all to find out...Or just continue as is while your soul is sucked dry.


As I mentioned elsewhere, I get how much *I'm* sucking my soul dry. All the feeling sorry for myself, being sad, feeling lonely, feeling neglected and worthless, all of it - it's crippling me. 

I'm present to the idea that we can't always choose our circumstances (or our relationships), but we can choose our reactions. My reactions have been disempowering and literally sucking the life from me (and from my wife, I'm sure, and even my son, which is a terrifying thought). All my energy (and thusly, not an insignificant amount of time, too, I'm sure) is going into that disempowered reaction. The first thing to do is to cut the resentment and frustration and loneliness and depression and self-pity/self-loathing. Easier said than done, but I get now just how much it is costing me. Life can still suck, but I don't have to make it worse with my reaction.

Yesterday, I had a moment of energy that I haven't felt in a long time. It was relatively short, but it reminded me of what can be. I am starting to tap into it.

Thank you for helping me see my way.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Hmmm, it's pride; unfortunately a double edged sword.


Truer words have never been written, I think. 'Pride' came out of my mouth in MC recently, though I can't remember exactly why it did.

I've always had pride. Often, it has served me well over the years. It has been a great protection, without my feeling like I have had to be 'guarded' or alone. But sometimes, like in the last few years, I can see it working against me. Maybe pride goeth before a fall? lol


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Jessica38 said:
> 
> 
> > You are both putting your son first. This has to stop. You need to focus on improving your marriage.
> ...


You have good intentions but I'm trying to point out that they may be misguided, especially since you admit you are not in love with your wife and are losing attraction for her, and since she's not interested in sex, she likely is too.

You can blame overwhelm, stress, child care, etc. but the truth is, we ALL have challenges to deal with and it takes real effort to work on the marriage and put that first, especially when you have children. Many couples fall out of love. It's the ones who recognize what's happening and work to fix it.

What are you doing to fix your work situation? Have you talked to her yet to let her know that's a priority? Are you scheduling time this week for more family time, in an effort to get closer to your wife and show her you're going to lead your family? Have you downloaded the book recommended yet?


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Also wanted to add that she's also not interested in spending time with you. She is not in love either. You need to fix this.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> What was your previous career field?


Essentially, Business Operations Management.

I had a 10+ year career with a large global IT corporation, doing a lot of back office work creating and implementing processes and tools. Process analysis, change management, intra-company client services, tool implementation and training, etc. I have worked in Project Management Offices (though not as a project manager) and in procurement departments (setting up tools - like ERP - and global processes for both). The latter had me working internationally and managing an team of buyers (despite my not having any buying experience myself). 

The problem is, that was all over seven years ago. I definitely don't feel like I am able to talk about today's business needs and solutions, and honestly, I'm not even sure how I can get that back without spending a lot of time in business again.

I think that my quickest path to anything might be to try to be a buyer, though, unfortunately, buyers don't really make a whole lot of money, so I would have to get promoted quickly, or it really wouldn't be much of a solution. 

Additionally, I'm going to have to figure out how to get both my attitude and energy up so I can take that on in addition to everything I'm doing now. As you say, I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. The first thing to do is to stop enabling that by wallowing in it. Just suck it up, stop thinking about what I don't have and start thinking about what needs to get done and how to get it done as productively as possible.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> I bet you have more qualities than you think.
> 
> Have you ever made a list of all the wonderful things about yourself?
> 
> Think about all the nice things people have told you about yourself over the course of your life. That could be a good thing to refer to when you're feeling down.


Sure. Everyone has qualities and wonderful things and many nice things said about them.

I'm not so sure that qualities, even nice and wonderful ones, make a man valuable. They may give him *potential* value, but a man is primarily valued for what he does and what he accomplishes in life.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Sure. Everyone has qualities and wonderful things and nice things that are said about them.
> 
> I'm not sure that qualities, even nice ones, are what makes a man valuable. They may give him *potential* value, but a man is primarily valued for what he does and what he accomplishes in life.


And you are surely bringing up a very nice, very smart little boy. That is a great contribution to society.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> And you are surely bringing up a very nice, very smart little boy. That is a great contribution to society.


Haha, while you are not necessarily wrong, I'm not sure that that value is immediately recognized or appreciated. 

It certainly isn't the sort of thing that commands respect. Which is relevant here, since respect is directly correlated to attraction for most women. 

In fact, raising a very nice, very smart little boy, while definitely making a great contribution to society, is usually seen as 'doing your job' as a parent. Most people aren't really going to give accolades to someone for doing what they are supposed to be doing anyway.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Haha, while you are not necessarily wrong, I'm not sure that that value is immediately recognized or appreciated.
> 
> It certainly isn't the sort of thing that commands respect. Which is relevant here, since respect is directly correlated to attraction for most women.
> 
> In fact, raising a very nice, very smart little boy, while definitely making a great contribution to society, is usually seen as 'doing your job' as a parent. Most people aren't really going to give accolades to someone for doing what they are supposed to be doing anyway.


I hear you; I am a sahm. My husband is very supportive, but I know well the feelings of doubt and insecurity. I am lucky in that he always wanted me to be a sahm, and holds sahms in very high esteem.

It sounds like you are a devoted parent, OP. And you love your wife. And she loves you, too. 

This is a challenging time of life for both of you. But I promise it will get easier.  Your son will grow and need less direct and immediate care. There will be time for you and your wife to spend together. Some of it you two will spend basking in mutual satisfaction with your son. 

Please believe in your work and in your worth, Dazed. It is valuable. You are not expendable. You are nurturing your son and your wife, and I bet they appreciate it more than they sometimes let on. 

One more thought: I remember reading an article last year about how women, as they become breadwinners in ever increasing numbers, need to start viewing men as emotional supporters rather than financial ones. This can help them better adjust to new economic realities, and feel happy in their emerging family dynamics.

I can't seem to find it right now. But if I come across it, I will link it here for you. I really think it could be encouraging to your wife, and reassuring to you.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Sorry for the lack of timely responses - I've been on vacation with the family, and where I was, there was no viable internet connection (nor much time), and writing responses on my phone seems to take forever.



jld said:


> I hear you; I am a sahm. My husband is very supportive, but I know well the feelings of doubt and insecurity. I am lucky in that he always wanted me to be a sahm, and holds sahms in very high esteem.


I hold SAHMs (and SAHPs) in high esteem as well. My whole life, if I were to ever have kids, I always held it as a goal to *not* have the sort of family that required a baby/child to spend their days in the primary care of a non-family member. Once my son was born, the thought of turning him over to strangers became even harder to entertain, though the circumstances for being a SAHP were not at all like the ideal that I had imagined (not to mention, my son turned out to be super high-maintenance in so many ways - had troubles feeding, wouldn't sleep ever, etc.). 



> It sounds like you are a devoted parent, OP. And you love your wife. And she loves you, too.


I definitely care about my wife, whether there is 'love' present or not. As angry or resentful as I might be about the turns our marriage has taken, I really just want her to be happy and taken care of. That's why the idea of divorce has never really been an option - as much as I might find our marriage difficult and even untenable at times, the idea of ripping my son away from her - even if only for, say, half of the week - just seems unconscionably cruel, and it is hard for me to justify taking such action, no matter how bad things might be. I can't imagine anything worse you could do to another person than to deny them access to their child, even if it's just part of the time.



> Some of it you two will spend basking in mutual satisfaction with your son.


This is definitely the glue that keeps us together, as well as our history and, frankly, stubbornness. Seeing my son so happy, and so happy to be with mommy and daddy at the same time (something that, even at five, he expresses regularly) gives us a lot of satisfaction.



> One more thought: I remember reading an article last year about how women, as they become breadwinners in ever increasing numbers, need to start viewing men as emotional supporters rather than financial ones. This can help them better adjust to new economic realities, and feel happy in their emerging family dynamics.


While I think such sentiments are good *in theory*, I have little faith that they can be translated into reality. I think that sort of situation cuts against the very grain of the nature (or maybe nurture? either way...) of male/female attraction. My situation is certainly not unique - I know of no men IRL who have been able to keep their wives' respect as SAHDs/house husbands, unless they are simultaneously fulfilling their primary role as protector and provider in other ways (one successful guy I know has a trust fund and also a thriving side business that doesn't require much time investment on his part, for example).


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Also wanted to add that she's also not interested in spending time with you. She is not in love either. *You need to fix this.*


Clearly, lol. I'm trying to figure out how to fix things without inadvertently making them worse (as seems to happen more often than not). 

Events of the past week or so have shown me two things - first, there are some really serious issues that need to be addressed (she crossed a boundary a couple weeks ago, and that threw into stark relief just how deep-seated our issues remain), and second, that if we can just find a way to spend some time together and actually have conversations long enough to reach some kind of mutual understanding and resolution (instead of the usual 'we're going to have to talk about this later', with the 'later' part never actually happening), our connection might be able to be reestablished.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Clearly, lol. I'm trying to figure out how to fix things without inadvertently making them worse (as seems to happen more often than not).
> 
> Events of the past week or so have shown me two things - first, there are some really serious issues that need to be addressed (she crossed a boundary a couple weeks ago, and that threw into stark relief just how deep-seated our issues remain), and second, that if we can just find a way to spend some time together and actually have conversations long enough to reach some kind of mutual understanding and resolution (instead of the usual 'we're going to have to talk about this later', with the 'later' part never actually happening), our connection might be able to be reestablished.


I know you're trying but you haven't yet read the book I recommended to you. Totally fine if you don't wan to go that route, but realize, I read this and see you're making tons of mistakes here. First, time together should be FUN and spent meeting emotional needs, not hashing things out. This is very hard for me to do personally in my own marriage, so I got stuck on just this point alone in trying to reconnect with my husband last year. You really need to read the book if you want a concrete plan.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> I know you're trying but you haven't yet read the book I recommended to you.


I fully intend to read it. My 'reading time' is unfortunately limited (I get through most books by listening to them on Audible), but I am intrigued by what I've read. 

I did bring up his concept of 'needs' to my wife yesterday, and she seemed open to discussing them. Particularly, that she apparently has felt that conversation and affection are needs that I'm not meeting (it's still weird to me that someone who doesn't find me particularly sexually attractive or respectable would want affection from me, but apparently her view of me doesn't affect her desire for me to provide those things). I have actually taken on offering her hugs when opportunities arise, and she was way more receptive to them than I would have guessed. I also have taken on making sure I ask her about her work, what she is doing, what her days look like, etc. She has definitely indicated she would like me to ask her more about her day and the like, so I'm trying to find appropriate avenues for accomplishing that (getting the timing right on that is critical, I find). 



> First, time together should be FUN and spent meeting emotional needs, not hashing things out. This is very hard for me to do personally in my own marriage, so I got stuck on just this point alone in trying to reconnect with my husband last year.


Yeah, I can see that. My wife has often said that she just wishes we could be a happy family, and that she resents my bringing up our troubles instead of just focusing on being happy.



> You really need to read the book if you want a concrete plan.


It's at the top of my list. I would definitely benefit from getting more substantial details that might allow me to formulate a workable plan. 15 hours of one-on-one time a week sounds like a dream, given that I definitely see 'recreational companionship' as something I really miss. If that book can show me a way to make that happen (or even a way to get half of that) without engendering additional resentments, it will be worth it's weight in gold, lol.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I fully intend to read it. My 'reading time' is unfortunately limited (I get through most books by listening to them on Audible), but I am intrigued by what I've read.
> 
> I did bring up his concept of 'needs' to my wife yesterday, and she seemed open to discussing them. Particularly, that she apparently has felt that conversation and affection are needs that I'm not meeting (it's still weird to me that someone who doesn't find me particularly sexually attractive or respectable would want affection from me, but apparently her view of me doesn't affect her desire for me to provide those things). I have actually taken on offering her hugs when opportunities arise, and she was way more receptive to them than I would have guessed. I also have taken on making sure I ask her about her work, what she is doing, what her days look like, etc. She has definitely indicated she would like me to ask her more about her day and the like, so I'm trying to find appropriate avenues for accomplishing that (getting the timing right on that is critical, I find).
> 
> ...


The book will tell you how to meet those needs for your wife and why they're important. That alone may work to motivate her to begin meeting your needs too. If not, you can always ask specific advice on the Marriage Builders forum for getting your wife onboard with their plan, if you choose to go that route. Again, because you're the husband trying to improve your marriage, you have a great chance of success of leading your wife to do the same. She needs to put in the effort too, but she will likely be more motivated to do so once you learn how and what she needs from you.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

What boundary was crossed?


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> What boundary was crossed?


It's a boundary with a complicated backstory, but basically, engaging in 'sexting' with an old friend.

In our lives before having a kid, we had a fairly large and close-knit group of friends (couples) with whom we were essentially sexually non-exclusive. We were all very close and trusted and respected each other implicitly (hence our ability to be that close), and we still consider those friends to be among our closest in life (even when sex was taken off the table). 

One of the couples moved a few states away several years ago, but they remained close with all of us. Every few months, my wife would get a text from the guy half that usually opened with a (intentionally) cheesy 'What are you wearing?'-type provocation, which usually led to some sharing of sexual fantasies or other such sexually explicit texts. That behavior was hardly out of the norm for any of us, as we all enjoyed having that sort of 'sexually free' friendship within our group, so I never took issue with it (for example, I'm sure I could have sent his wife the same sort of text and it would have been happily received, but I'm not particularly interested in texting). 

After my son was born, we just couldn't run with the crowd the way we used to, so we saw less and less of everyone, though we still get together with some of the old crew - in a strictly platonic fashion now - when the odd chance presents itself (hard to get out with young kids). The out-of-the-blue texts would still come in from the out-of-state friend every now and then, and at first, I thought it was actually cool. My wife was struggling with body issues and the very un-sexual nature of being a mother (to the extent that it was a big effort to even hang out with our former friends in any fashion - she was used to being a sexy rockstar with everyone so her self-consciousness was crippling), so she was appreciative that someone outside the marriage at least pretended to continue to find her sexually attractive, even if it was just in texts. I thought engaging in such exchanges might give her sexual confidence a boost (a boost that I might benefit from). 

However, as our sex life (and the rest of the marriage) continued to circle the drain, my attitude towards such texts shifted dramatically. She acted quite asexual with me, so to see her being sexual, even in fantasy and texts, when she wouldn't be sexual with me pissed me off (though, of course, she claims that I was in fact being asexual towards her, a claim that has some basis, but I feel like I mostly stopped being sexual with her because she stopped being sexual with me, and I was tired of feeling like an ass). The last exchange I saw (last summer, I believe) really upset me (angry, depressed, resigned), so she said that she wouldn't do it anymore. 

No more texts until a couple weeks ago. I happened to be checking the cell phone bill (as I often do), and I noticed a flurry of texting activity with his number (started by him, as usual). And, worse, all of the texts had been deleted (she claims that she deleted them so I wouldn't see them before she had a chance to talk to me about them - hmmmmmm). So, the **** hit the fan. 

While I know that she isn't actually having an affair, nor do I have any reason to think that she would have an affair (if nothing else, I can count on her vanity to prevent her from doing so - there is no way she is going to allow someone to see her naked these days - she has a hard enough time wearing a bathing suit in public). But she did do something that she knows hurts me, and her first reaction to my losing my **** was to get defensive and find ways to minimize and blame shift or to try to shut me down so we'd stop talking about it, which is what I feel like always happens whenever I try to bring up issues with her. Except this time, I had the strength of my convictions that what happened was both important and definitively against me and our marriage. 

We had to start a long road trip that morning (she complained a lot about my timing), so she was trapped in the car with me and couldn't avoid the issue, which we discussed as soon as my son fell asleep in the backseat. She eventually calmed down and stopped evading and accepted responsibility and apologized (something she doesn't do easily) and got that what she did was hurtful and wrong and there was no excuse for it. I think it was a bit of an eye-opener for her.

So what bothers me more than the actual texting (which taken alone isn't *that* big of a deal for me) was her reaction to it. As with many of our issues, I feel like she doesn't make my well-being much of a priority. Most of the time, she has fairly solid, arguable reasons for why that is (my being 'needy' is one of them, my being 'unhappy' is another, all of the complaints she has about me, etc) such that we usually hit an impasse early on, but in this case, there just was no excuse on her part. It was wrong, she knew it was wrong (something she weakly tried to deny until I pointed out that there was a *reason* she thought she should delete the texts first, so she should stfu about her supposed innocence), yet she didn't address that wrong immediately. It was actually relieving that I had a fairly clear-cut issue with which to deal. I felt like I was finally standing on solid ground and had every right to what I was feeling.

While we did eventually reach a solid reconciliation with regards to that particular incident, the issue of how my feelings and needs get de-prioritized and invalidated is definitely something that I'm now going to address much more vehemently in our MC sessions. I used to think that it might be all just me and my 'neediness' and my neuroses (and a lot may still be me and my 'neediness' and my neuroses), but I now know that that isn't always the case. I might still be a POS in many ways, but I do have the right to not be treated in such a hurtful manner.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Your wife is not asexual. She's just not sexual with you. After all, why flirt or be sexual with her husband when she can do so by text to somebody she's actually attracted to.

She is in a low-level emotional affair, and is getting her sexual validation from someone else. You realize that, right?

At this point, I think you want the marriage more than she does. That is a problem.

Deleting texts is a problem.

Being sexual with another man, and not her husband, is a problem.

Being unwilling to work on her end of the marriage is a problem.

Essentially you are being held hostage to your fear of your child being raised in a single-parent household.

No principled decision can be properly made when fear enters into the equation.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Your wife is not asexual. She's just not sexual with you.


I totally get that. That's why my views shifted on the texting a while back.



> After all, why flirt or be sexual with her husband when she can do so by text to somebody she's actually attracted to.


That's part of it, though she claims that the attraction is just 'fun' and not real.

Mostly, I think that it is validating and easy and safe for her. She doesn't have to actually *be* anyone or *do* anything to get that sexual fix. There is no vulnerability, no risk.

She claims that she feels sexually rejected by me. Which is not entirely untrue - there have been a few times that I have, either overtly or indirectly, sexually rejected her. Part of that was my reaction to constantly feeling sexually rejected by her. 

One of the things that came up in our talk was about how we both have rejected each other in equal measure. My jaw dropped. Yes, there are times that she made some overtures and I was less than receptive (mostly because I wanted to feel actual *intimacy* with my wife as well, not just as a tool for her to use to get off whenever she decided she wanted sex). But those were maybe a handful of times, compared to what seems like hundreds of times from her end. But as we all know (and I've learned), women are not forgiving when it comes to any kind of sexual rejection. 




> She is in a low-level emotional affair, and is getting her sexual validation from someone else. You realize that, right?


Well, yeah - that's what set off the explosion. Though the EA is definitely 'low-level' - it's not like it's a regularly active thing, nor is it a function of trying to escalate to something more illicit.

I understand that us being sexual is difficult right now for a whole variety of reasons, but that doesn't justify doing something that hurts the other.



> At this point, I think you want the marriage more than she does. That is a problem.


I honestly have no idea. I do know that she has said that *I* can no longer be her first priority - she is focused on taking care of our son (and I do appreciate her devotion to him) and paying the mortgage - though she separates that from 'our marriage.' 

As I said before, she's very independent, and feels she is doing everything she can to help our marriage. Whether that is true or not, I know she believes it to be true. She has done a lot in recent memory to tone down the negativity on her part, though I'm not sure if the underlying issues have resolved themselves as well.



> Deleting texts is a problem.


That was one of the biggest problems I had. I can understand her argument that she felt there wasn't time to deal with the issue when it happened (a common argument for a lot of our issues), that she couldn't deal with all that while also trying to get ready to leave for a week, but I feel like, when it comes to something that significant, it should become the top priority until it gets resolved. If that means putting the family vacation on hold for a day or something, so be it. 



> Being sexual with another man, and not her husband, is a problem.


Yep. That's a big problem. 

Again, being sexual with someone else hasn't always been a big issue (as long as everything was above board), but that changed when she wasn't being sexual with me. I don't really care if she thinks it's my fault that she wasn't being sexual with me - we have to find a way for ourselves first.



> Being unwilling to work on her end of the marriage is a problem.


She claims that she has done a ton of work on her end (she is very private about such things), that she has worked to give up her resentments and to try to have more compassion. 

One of the problems for me is that I don't feel like we've worked *together* very much on the problem (possibly because I'm not the easiest person to work with at this point, but regardless...). I do know that the amount of conflict and anger has gone down significantly in our home, and I appreciate her efforts in that regard, for both myself and for our son.



> Essentially you are being held hostage to your fear of your child being raised in a single-parent household.
> 
> No principled decision can be properly made when fear enters into the equation.


To an extent, you're right. OTOH, I don't want to blow up my life and my family without doing everything in my power to keep it together first. What we all would lose seems greater than what we would gain. I've watched a lot of divorces with young children involved in recent years (we're some of the few who have kept it together after having kids while not displaying open hostility towards each other), and no one seems better off for having gone through that. The parents are still unhappy, the kids are emotional messes, everyone has to live with much less financially, socially, emotionally - it's not like getting divorced represented some great life change for them, even if it did make some things easier. You kind of pick your problems when it comes to these situations, it seems.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

So what are you actually going to do? At this point I really only see talk.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> So what are you actually going to do? At this point I really only see talk.


Well, several things have become more clear, and I credit this thread with a lot.

First, I will stop being a victim of my circumstances, and I will stop making 'not sucking' my goal. Things are hard and life did in many ways not turn out like I had hoped. But focusing on what I don't have, on what I'm not doing, and wallowing in my own dissatisfaction, depression, and misery is doing nothing but draining me of energy (and therefore time as well). 

I am going to focus on attacking every day, not because I'm hoping that someone else appreciates it or because I'm hoping it will 'fix' things, but simply for my own integrity. I will do the things that need to be done because I am a man who honors his commitments and his word. If I focus too much on how I'm *not* fulfilling on everything I feel I need to do, I just wind up demoralized and looking to others to tell me that I'm okay. I'll do what I can do because I can, not because I should. 

I will also stop playing the 'tit-for-tat' game with my wife. I will work to be the husband and father that *I* know I can be. I will not fulfill those roles in an attempt to prove myself or to ingratiate myself to others, but because I want to look myself in the mirror and know that I am doing everything I can do to be the sort of husband and father I want to be, regardless of who is doing what in response or what the reaction is. 

To accomplish that, I am going to have to become generous again and drop my protective walls and my sense of being handed the short end of the stick. In short, I'm going to have to stop resenting her and start forgiving her. Again, not because she 'deserves' it or something, but because I can't be the person I want to be unless I do those things. 

Shortly after my first post, I went home from work and, first thing, gave my wife a hug. She just about broke down. I had no idea she would respond in such a way, mostly because I don't feel much in the way of love or interest from her. But I realized - it's a freakin' hug. It apparently makes a huge difference to her (whether I understand why or not), so how hard is it for me to 'swallow my pride' and do something so simple? My 'punishing' her has achieved virtually nothing for either of us up to this point - if I'm going to have any feeling of freedom, I'm going to have to start acting 'free.' I will give hugs because that's the kind of husband I want to be, not because I am hoping that it changes something with regards to my needs.

Along with that is to work on taking things less personally. Yes, my wife is going to be unhappy. Yes, she is frustrated and wishes life were different/better. Yes, she is terribly afraid in life. And yes, some of that is going to be because of me. But she also feels like she can't talk about any of her problems or her fears or her dreams/wishes because I immediately hear such talk as an attack on me (and I swear to God that it really is an attack at times). But my getting defensive and feeling ashamed and bad about myself and our marriage is doing nothing to help any of us. So I'm committed to 'distancing' myself (at least somewhat) from her worries/frustrations/complaints/wishes and just letting her talk. My reactivity doesn't solve anything, and it just serves to drive us further apart. 

That's not to say that I just put up with bad behavior on her part, but the first step is to stop reacting and letting any perceived 'attacks' get to me. That was what was helpful about the texting blow up - I actually got to experience myself dealing with her 'from a distance', and that felt powerful. 

Part of the moving forward is also to look at really making myself independent. What can I do, what can I take on, that can give me the sense of pride and self-respect that I feel I am missing. To do that, I'm going to have to stop worrying so much over the little things at times. Dishes may pile up in the sink, my wife might get stressed out by that, she might even express her disappointment in me for letting that happen, but I'll have bigger goals that I am focused on such that the dishes in the sink isn't my only concern.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Your wife is not asexual. She's just not sexual with you. After all, why flirt or be sexual with her husband when she can do so by text to somebody she's actually attracted to.
> 
> She is in a low-level emotional affair, and is getting her sexual validation from someone else. You realize that, right?
> 
> ...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Except he allowed it in the past, and seems to still allow it now.


I allowed it in the past because it was part of what we enjoyed socially. I never saw it as a impingement on myself or our marriage, when our marriage was healthy and we had a rockin' sex life. 

Last summer, I made it clear that such behavior now hurt me. As a result, she said she wouldn't do it anymore. 

Looking back, I definitely didn't 'put my foot down' - I was mostly just feeling hurt and confused as to how she could respond the way she did when I felt like she wouldn't respond to me that way (her response was 'well, you've never sexted me, so you don't even know'). I was mostly a hurt puppy about it but didn't want to come off as 'jealous' or 'controlling.' Not good. 

I did not make the same mistake this time. I was clear that A) she did something she knew would hurt me if I found out and B) it is not okay, and C) that she was going to have to accept my request that she not engage like that any more, at least at this point. No more 'well, you didn't specifically say...' justifications. 



> This reads to me more like he isn't actively being the alpha male in his relationship, which for many women, is necessary for attraction (a masculine energy to their feminine). Not questioning the OP's masculinity, just the role he's taking in his marriage.


Agreed. It's been a ***** figuring out how to continue to be the 'alpha' (which I clearly was for many years) given where we have ended up, but I've got to get that back, regardless of my circumstances.



> He's allowing another man to sexually flirt with his wife


Allowing? I don't know why you would say I'm allowing.



> This makes him look less attractive to his wife for allowing this.


I am not equivocating on any 'allowance' here, I don't think. It's not allowed.



> A semi-open marriage in which contact/flirty texts with previous sexual partners sounds like it could also be the problem in this marriage, in addition to other issues.


Yeah, it's not longer 'semi-open', I wouldn't say. We haven't gone there in a long time. 



> She's likely "held hostage" too at the moment due to their shared child..


I'm quite certain she often feels that way, too. But she has also said repeatedly that she can't imagine being in a nursing home with anyone else, so she wants to figure out how to make that happen. 

I think we both feel like we have the potential for a great relationship again (it was amazing for so many years), so that is why we are being so dogged. As my wife likes to point out, we really do share some deep-seated values that we really only find in each other, despite experiencing some big personality differences at the same time.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazed, no doubt marriage can be hard and you guys have your share of work ahead of you. I see you're trying to improve things and have come a long way. She needs to meet you halfway too though. Your marriage was not set up on the best foundation IMO, even though for a while things were good. You can and are changing this. You have a lot to overcome, mainly that she's taking on the more masculine energy in the relationship and that can be hard on any marriage, but especially one in which previous lovers are still in the mix due to your former lifestyle. 

I'd state that you're no longer willing to live with this guy (and any other ex-lovers) contacting her. Start there. That is likely at least partly responsible for the emotional detachment you're experiencing with your wife, in addition to the work you need to do on yourself. She needs to stop her independent behavior, which you've encouraged in the past. By "allowed," I mean I see no personal boundary stated otherwise. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I know that if my ex-lover texted me for anything at all ever, my husband's boundaries would be violated. Your wife doesn't know that at all, and in her mind, this may be totally acceptable in your marriage, and thus, you are less attractive to her (even without her fully realizing that).

Unless you want a different type of marriage. In that case, I admit I don't know how to help. That wouldn't fly in ours though.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> She needs to meet you halfway too though.


As I mentioned previously, she feels like she has done and is doing everything she can to work on herself and, thereby, the marriage.



> Your marriage was not set up on the best foundation IMO, even though for a while things were good.


Why would you draw that conclusion? Keep in mind, the extracurricular activities with friends didn't start until after we had been together for around 10 years.





> mainly that she's taking on the more masculine energy in the relationship and that can be hard on any marriage


This is definitely something we talked about a while ago. When she took over as breadwinner (at the same time as she took on starting a family), she felt she had to be more masculine. More masculine than she wanted to be, for sure (she already possessed some masculine qualities). And it was tough for me to be (feel) masculine in the new situation as well. 



> but especially one in which previous lovers are still in the mix due to your former lifestyle.


How do you think her increased 'masculinity' is affected by 'lovers'? (I think 'lover' is a way overblown way to look at them - more like FWBs, or really, just regular friends whom you get sexual with for fun on very rare occasions)

I don't think there was 'love' that went beyond the kind of love that comes with friendship amongst any of our friends. It's not like the conditions are even there for 'love', which I would say comes from being intimately one-on-one with someone over time and in a variety of settings. Fooling around with someone at a party on a whim doesn't pack quite the same punch.



> I'd state that you're no longer willing to live with this guy (and any other ex-lovers) contacting her.


I'm no longer willing to live with her engaging with this guy in sexting. 

For example, they have occasionally reached out to each other for professional advice as well (they both share a similar profession). I've seen those texts (this was the first text conversation on her phone that she has ever deleted, as far as I can tell) and they are perfectly within bounds. As are the various texts that come to both of us on special occasions, like our birthdays or something.

And the problem with cutting out friends we have ever been sexual with is that it would dramatically reduce our circle of friends, lol. 

Honestly, I have little issue with us remaining friends with those we have been sexual with in the past. I trust them, they trust us, not one of our friends has ever done anything but actively and vocally respect and support all of our respective marriages/partnerships. That has always been abundantly clear for everyone involved.

The problem, for me, is the agreement that I thought she and I had, and that she failed to keep her word on the agreement. 



> She needs to stop her independent behavior, which you've encouraged in the past.


It's never been a problem in the past. I felt the (new) boundary was clear, and her deleting the texts would indicate that she was at least somewhat aware of the boundary. My issue isn't with her 'independent behavior' (honestly, I think little of the texts our friends send each other), but with her not honoring the boundary. 




> By "allowed," I mean I see no personal boundary stated otherwise.


While I recognize that I may not have clearly stated, "Sexting violates my boundaries and I don't want you to do it", when we talked about it and she told me she wouldn't do it anymore, I presumed that defined the boundary.



> I can tell you with 100% certainty that I know that if my ex-lover texted me for anything at all ever, my husband's boundaries would be violated.


Well, I can totally get that.

Do any of your ex-lovers text your husband for anything? That might be one difference.



> this may be totally acceptable in your marriage, and thus, you are less attractive to her (even without her fully realizing that).


I think that my letting her walk over my boundaries would definitely make me less attractive (and I will admit that this has probably happened more than I would like to admit in the past few years, though none of them involved behavior with other people). This particular boundary, though, I did call her onto the carpet for crossing. 



> That wouldn't fly in ours though.


Wouldn't fly in most people's marriages, for sure. Of course, most people don't have the kinds of friends we have, either (at least, the friends in that particular social circle).


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazed, I think you're looking at this through your point of view and I'm trying to give you the perspective of a wife. It's a well-known fact that MANY men are able to keep sex and their emotions more separate than many women are. By "allowing" I mean that your wife is in contact with former sex partners, and this is acceptable in your marriage. The fact that it has lead to sexting is really no surprise here, and it likely is affecting your marriage. One reason why many married couples agree to stop talking with their Ex's after marriage is because of this very reason. It definitely can impact the intimacy in a marriage and is a slippery slope.

I think there are many issues in your marriage that would have to be fixed before things will get better. To me and what I have learned about boundaries in marriage, you and your wife both have poor boundaries that would affect intimacy, so it's really no surprise that's what you're dealing with.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> By "allowing" I mean that your wife is in contact with former sex partners, and this is acceptable in your marriage.


I appreciate your perspective, and it does give me some ideas that I need to consider.

Clearly, I have a slightly different perspective. Many of those former sex partners (sex partners whose partners have also been my sex partners) are also some of our closest friends, despite the fact that sexual contact is no longer an aspect of our friendship (not that it ever was a big component to begin with). Cutting out those people would severely impact our social well-being, and wouldn't really be fair to them, either. They have been very supportive of us (platonically) during trying times, and cutting them off simply because sex happened at some point in the past doesn't feel right.



> The fact that it has lead to sexting is really no surprise here, and it likely is affecting your marriage.


Why should sexting be no surprise? It's entirely possible to control oneself around others such that platonic friendship is possible. I don't understand the 'inevitability' of such things. Are women incapable of managing themselves?

I am still close friends with some of my past sex partners. In fact, one of my/our very best friends was a former 'FWB' (we only had sex a handful of times over a couple years). I now consider her to be like family, and there is *zero* sexual interest between us anymore. Not only is she in a relationship now that is sexually monogamous/exclusive, but sex with her would be like having sex with my sister or something. I'm not interested and neither is she. We're very warm and affectionate with each other (hugs and the like) because we've been through so much together as friends, but there are no sexual overtones, not even from her end.



> One reason why many married couples agree to stop talking with their Ex's after marriage is because of this very reason. It definitely can impact the intimacy in a marriage and is a slippery slope.


Well, many couples I know who are no longer together but actively coparent talk with their Exes on a regular basis, and come together for the sake of their kids on special occasions and what not. They are often on friendly terms with each other. I'm not sure that it is a reasonable expectation that one should cut the other out of your life. 

I'm not saying that our situation is all that similar (a friendship is admittedly different from coparenting), but I'm just addressing the blanket statement.



> To me and what I have learned about boundaries in marriage, you and your wife both have poor boundaries that would affect intimacy, so it's really no surprise that's what you're dealing with.


So I would like to get your thoughts on this. 

How does one go about, say, telling their spouse they have to cut contact with their friends without coming off as weak, insecure, neurotic, controlling, or whatever?

As much as my wife might feel I am unattractive for 'allowing' such contact, I know for a fact that my telling her that I can't abide her being in contact with these people because she had sex with them years ago would be seen as weak and insecure. It was hard enough that I broke down and showed my hurt when I first approached her about the texts last summer. I'm sure that for her, it was just 'one more thing' that she was going to have to do to accommodate my sensitive ass.

It's hard for me to find a way to deal with these sorts of things that doesn't leave me feeling like I'm being weak and neurotic and sensitive, or, alternatively, that doesn't leave her feeling defensive and intruded upon and like I think she's a bad person (she often says, 'I know I'm a good person - I don't know why you can't see that, too').


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I appreciate your perspective, and it does give me some ideas that I need to consider.
> 
> Clearly, I have a slightly different perspective. Many of those former sex partners (sex partners whose partners have also been my sex partners) are also some of our closest friends, despite the fact that sexual contact is no longer an aspect of our friendship (not that it ever was a big component to begin with). Cutting out those people would severely impact our social well-being, and wouldn't really be fair to them, either. They have been very supportive of us (platonically) during trying times, and cutting them off simply because sex happened at some point in the past doesn't feel right.
> 
> ...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> She's going to experience a rush of dopamine when a former sex partner tells her she's attractive, sexy, etc.


I would say that she probably experiences a rush of dopamine when *anyone* attractive tells her she's attractive, sexy, etc. But yeah, that's what hooks her.



> That rush/connection = impaired intimacy with you.


When you have no intimacy, 'impaired intimacy' is hardly a threat, lol. But yeah - I'm definitely not cool with her having any 'rushes' or 'connections' when we haven't had either of those between us for a very long time. If I have to live life without 'rushes' and 'connections' (something I sorely miss), I'm not sure why she should get to experience them, however fleeting they may be.



> My point is that this may not be working out so well for your wife.


Point taken. Fortunately, these exchanges are brief, and have only happened on a handful of occasions over several years, which is why it wasn't a bigger issue right off the bat.



> I'm sure you've heard of instances where a spouse in a second marriage returns to their first spouse?


Actually, I've never heard of this. With all the divorced people (some of whom have remarried, some haven't) I know, I can't even imagine this ever happening. That sounds like crazy levels of drama...



> tell her what steps you're taking to improve your job situation.


It does always come down to that. I wish it were something more concrete and immediate, but I'm working on it. I still haven't figured out what steps I can take that will give her some confidence in my being able to take the lead again soon.

As I said, working part-time and managing the household seems to take up most of my time and energy (though I'm working on changing my attitude and paradigm with the intention of creating more productivity and effectiveness). I have no idea how I can add going to school or whatever to my plate (or our finances), but I'm looking for ways. 

She makes a lot of money - I'm going to have to figure out a way to come close to what she is making in order for her to relax enough to feel comfortable easing back on her work such that she feels free to refocus on taking over more of our domestic life (if that is even possible, lol - she's quite the workaholic). 

And so far, having one person with a flexible schedule has been really crucial to making everything work - if neither of us can get away from work to manage, say, a sick child, I'm not sure how we'll handle those sorts of things.




> And I don't think you are being weak or insecure by wanting a better marriage.


I don't think she thinks I'm being weak and insecure for wanting a better marriage. I think she may feel I'm weak and insecure because I feel hurt or threatened by a friend texting about sex from 1500 miles away. But maybe that's just me projecting...



> but give her time to see a stronger, better, more alpha you and you will find your marriage is greatly improved.


I have no doubt. I would love to get my 'alpha' back. I just have no idea what it is going to take for me to be a 'stronger, better, more alpha' me again. My wife is hard to impress. Which is part of why I loved her for so long, and, honestly, why I'm not more spun out about this latest incident. Her being hard to impress was a great protection in our marriage, but it's become a huge challenge for me now, too.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

If she thinks you are weak for clamping down sexual communication with others outside of the marriage, you have far larger problems than your job situation.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> If she thinks you are weak for clamping down sexual communication with others outside of the marriage, you have far larger problems than your job situation.


Weak for clamping down because of my own hurt and/or fear. Going forward, I should probably take much greater care to not show how such activity affects me personally/emotionally.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Weak for clamping down because of my own hurt and/or fear. Going forward, I should probably take much greater care to not show how such activity affects me personally/emotionally.


What!? No! Why would you want her to think you don't care about her? That you won't mate guard her?


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> What!? No! Why would you want her to think you don't care about her? That you won't mate guard her?


Clamping down because I require respect, from a place of strength, not because what she does threatens or hurts me. 

Women (especially my wife) despise weakness and emotionalism, and respect strength and fortitude.

It can't be personal.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Women love and respect their husbands when they show they care for them enough to protect their marriage.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Women love and respect their husbands when they show they care for them enough to protect *their marriage*.


That's why I said it can't be personal. It's not about *me* (or her), my pain, or my worry. It's about what I will and won't allow in my marriage. It's about principle and integrity.

If I ask her not to do it because it hurts *me*, I'm showing more weakness and vulnerability and 'neediness.' She may feel badly for me, but she will also lose respect.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Weak for clamping down because of my own hurt and/or fear. Going forward, I should probably take much greater care to not show how such activity affects me personally/emotionally.


Why?

Hide your true self? That is deceptive enables her to not see the real you.

Do not...Do not...DO NOT be something you are not to win the girl. Then once you've won, and you have to be who you naturally are, she will want the person you were when you were winning her.

Sound familiar?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Clamping down because I require respect, from a place of strength, not because what she does threatens or hurts me.
> 
> Women (especially my wife) despise weakness and emotionalism, and respect strength and fortitude.
> 
> It can't be personal.


Never be afraid to show your hurt.

You are falling into the Nice Guy trap.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Dazed:

This is why it matters so much as to who you want to be. Be the man you want to be, and let the chips fall where they may.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Why?
> 
> Hide your true self? That is deceptive enables her to not see the real you.


If it was my 'true self', I would agree with you.

However, since I know that I want to be and need to be stronger, tougher, and more indepedent/less dependent, I see it more as a 'fake it until you make it' thing. 

Being sensitive, needy, and vulnerable isn't something I aspire to be.



> Do not...Do not...DO NOT be something you are not to win the girl. Then once you've won, and you have to be who you naturally are, she will want the person you were when you were winning her.
> 
> Sound familiar?


Well, it could be argued that I was a strong, independent, DGAF kind of guy - a rock, if you will. The kind of guy who could command respect, rather than having to demand it. *That's* the kind of guy I want to 'naturally' be again, instead of someone who is so tied into another that these sorts of issues arise. And I don't think any girl worth her salt wants to be with a guy who comes off as hurt or insecure in their relationships.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Never be afraid to show your hurt.


While I appreciate the sentiment, I feel like my reality just doesn't support this. 

I feel like I've gone through a lot of hurt in recent years. 'Showing my hurt' has done nothing but cause me to lose the respect of those around me, especially women. It's unnerving and alienating to them, and it makes me look weak and out of control.

Now I try to save such 'shows' for a therapist. I joke that at least they get paid for having to deal with my pain, lol...



> You are falling into the Nice Guy trap.


Interesting. Why would you say that? I feel like I've already fallen into the 'Nice Guy' trap, and I'm trying to extricate myself through becoming less needy, less sensitive, and more emotionally self-sufficient.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazed, is it possible you're depressed? I get what you're saying- depression/anxiety is VERY difficult for a marriage, and I've read it can be especially difficult for wives whose husband's are depressed.

Yes, she needs you to be her rock. I love that my husband is my rock. But she also needs to know that you care deeply for her. Showing her that her sexting/lack of intimacy/disinterest in spending more time w you is hurting you is NOT weak. 

If my husband showed no emotion while I was sexting/texting privately with a former lover and he was texting privately with women he slept with, I'd think he simply doesn't care about me.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Dazed, is it possible you're depressed? I get what you're saying- depression/anxiety is VERY difficult for a marriage, and I've read it can be especially difficult for wives whose husband's are depressed.


Not just possible, but confirmed. It got bad enough at one point that I started taking antidepressants for about a year and a half. I feel like I'm finally starting to come out of it, but I know that I'm not fully clear by any means.

Though, as I've learned a lot about depression in the past couple of years, I did take heart that I'm doing a lot better in a lot of ways than many others in my situation/circumstances. From what I've read, I should be in way worse shape. That has allowed me to see myself as stronger than I might give myself credit for.

My wife has also been on antidepressants (still is, I think) for a much longer time, but I think more for anxiety than for actual depression. We're both struggling, but I know that she had a particularly hard time dealing with my emotional state..[/QUOTE]



> If my husband showed no emotion while I was sexting/texting privately with a former lover and he was texting privately with women he slept with, I'd think he simply doesn't care about me.


While I didn't handle it as perfectly as I would have liked (I was terribly sleep deprived when I talked with her about it), I think I did show I cared *a lot*. I let her know that what she did was in no way acceptable or excusable and that I took it *very* seriously. This was one marital blowup where I felt like I was really on solid ground (something I often don't feel), and I was able to mostly stand tall and firm in the face of the ensuing chaos.

I say mostly, because I also allowed myself to be overcome by pain and sadness and frustration and confusion and self-doubt and guilt. I got quite emotional at times (tears, even), and was definitely not consistently fearsome or rock-like. And, unfortunately, that's not the first time that I've responded like that to our troubles or conflicts (otherwise, I think it may have been less damaging). It's just, uh, *depressing*, lol...

I am still, however, committed to fulfilling on the personal goals I established above.

I think the incident did serve to snap both of us back into a bit of reality. I can see that we are both more engaged than we've been in a while (the family vacation helped with that). She took opportunities to be with me and talk with me while on the trip, and she initiated sex on our one child-free night at the end of our trip (first time having sex in almost a year), despite us both being exhausted from the week and driving all day. She has also seems much more aware of how important it is that we make time to talk and spend adult time together. I mentioned the need again this morning, and for the first time in a long time I feel like she heard me and took my request seriously.

On my end, we had family in from out of town shortly after our return (nothing like burning candles at both ends, lol), and she had a freak out about how we neglected to have a few things ready for them prior to their arrival and how much it makes 'her heart hurt.' Normally, I would have felt bad and ashamed and apologized (since taking care of things around the house - like making sure the beds have clean sheets on for company - is generally my domain) and generally gone into 'my wife is hurting and I suck' mode, but not this time. I simply stood in the fact that everything was fine and being handled, that there are more important things to consider than whether everything is perfect, that our family in no way feels unwelcome or unappreciated, and that, while I certainly didn't want her heart to hurt, there is really no reason to hurt over something so ultimately insignificant and easily remedied.

This happened on her way out the door to get groceries for dinner (we both had to work that day and neither of us had time to do the necessary last minute shopping), and while she was out, I got a text thanking me for supporting her, apologizing for her freak out, and even poking a little fun at her ridiculousness. When she got home, she told me she was floored by our interaction. She just couldn't believe it went the way it did, and was effusive about how grateful she was for me and how much she appreciated my strong and calm response. She added that she knows that she needs to work on not being a perfectionist in so many ways. I swear she was almost in tears (which is unusual for her). 

So that was really encouraging, and has me energized in becoming 'rock-like' again.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> While I didn't handle it as perfectly as I would have liked (I was terribly sleep deprived when I talked with her about it), I think I did show I cared *a lot*. I let her know that what she did was in no way acceptable or excusable and that I took it *very* seriously. This was one marital blowup where I felt like I was really on solid ground (something I often don't feel), and I was able to mostly stand tall and firm in the face of the ensuing chaos.
> 
> I say mostly, because I also allowed myself to be overcome by pain and sadness and frustration and confusion and self-doubt and guilt. I got quite emotional at times (tears, even), and was definitely not consistently fearsome or rock-like. And, unfortunately, that's not the first time that I've responded like that to our troubles or conflicts (otherwise, I think it may have been less damaging). It's just, uh, *depressing*, lol...
> 
> ...


I still see nothing wrong with showing/telling her she hurt you. What she did WAS hurtful. 

I'm glad things are improving between you two. Do you think it will last? What is your plan going forward to improve the intimacy? it sounds like becoming stronger and working on yourself IS the plan and while I understand why, that's not going to improve your emotional connection to your wife. That takes 15 hours/week quality time with her where you both meet each other's intimate needs (conversation, affection, recreational companionship, and sex). Your wife isn't willing to do that right now. Unless you're hoping that by being more attractive to her she will be more motivated to do that?

I see where you're coming from, if so. But I'd give that a time limit before expecting her to step up too. 

It's ok to expect your spouse to meet your emotional needs. I still suggest that while working on yourself you reach out to her to let her know you also want to work on the marriage. Schedule 15 hours/week of fun time w her. It goes a long way to not only show her the stronger you, but to make her feel more connected to you. The lack of intimacy is likely a big part of why you're depressed in the first place (and the job situation).


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> I still see nothing wrong with showing/telling her she hurt you. What she did WAS hurtful.


While I agree that what she did was hurtful, I think that my reacting like a wounded puppy every time something hurtful happens isn't doing me any favors.



> I'm glad things are improving between you two. Do you think it will last?


We had a good week, but we were also on vacation. I would say that an opening may have been created, but I wouldn't look at is as 'improving' quite yet. That's something that will take time, and will take effort on both our parts.



> it sounds like becoming stronger and working on yourself IS the plan and while I understand why, that's not going to improve your emotional connection to your wife.


I think my being stronger and more independent (emotionally at minimum - physically as well, if I can find productive ways to do so) so that I am able to handle the blows ups and freak outs (like the example I gave above) will both allow me to more directly and powerfully advocate for what I need, as well as creating the necessary conditions for her to feel safer connecting emotionally again (as well as eliminating a lot of the bull**** that goes down that makes me withdraw).



> Unless you're hoping that by being more attractive to her she will be more motivated to do that?


That certainly would help motivate her to become more interested in *us*, rather than having everything be about her family. 

But more importantly, it will also give me the sense of strength, confidence, and clear-mindedness I need to advocate for both myself and for our marriage, as well as allowing me to make powerful choices with regards to my marriage and my future.



> It's ok to expect your spouse to meet your emotional needs.


And how does one do that without coming off as 'needy'? Even our marriage counselor has cautioned my wife that I need to find ways to meet my own needs instead of looking to her to make everythign 'okay.'



> Schedule 15 hours/week of fun time w her.


I am looking at how I can do this and inspire her to want to do it, too. It's hard when we both seem to just be focused on surviving and getting through the day, and when there isn't a lot of 'play money' laying around to make the fun happen more easily (kids are so dang expensive, lol). Like I said before, we have about two hours together as a family in the evening before it's bedtime (a significant amount of which is spent on stuff like dinner), so there isn't much time during the week, and then on weekends, my wife either wants her much needed alone time (she's an introvert, so she needs time to recharge by herself) or wants to spend time with our son.



> It goes a long way to not only show her the stronger you, but to make her feel more connected to you.


Yep. My coming up with ways to make that happen, and to make her feel relaxed enough to want to join me, would probably make me at least partially a badass in her eyes again. 



> The lack of intimacy is likely a big part of why you're depressed in the first place (and the job situation).


I'm glad to find someone who says that. I've felt like that for a long time, and I feel like the only response I find to that assertion is that I'm codependent and broken. 

Even our marriage counselor has said that I need to find a way to make myself happy and break my depression, and that it's all on me. That only I can make myself happy, and to look to anyone else for my happiness is a mistake. It's not my partners job to make me happy. But what if being in an intimate partnership is something that contributes significantly to my happiness? Is that really so unreasonable? Why *shouldn't* living with someone who is mostly disconnected from me, often/sometimes antagonistic towards and critical of me, and with whom I don't feel particularly 'safe' or comfortable with *not* adversely affect my mental well-being?

I know I am the only person who can make me happy, but does that mean that my partner has no responsibility in that direction? I feel so confused by it all...


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> While I agree that what she did was hurtful, I think that my reacting like a wounded puppy every time something hurtful happens isn't doing me any favors.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your MC doesn't sound very helpful, TBH. I think we're sold the party line that we're supposed to make ourselves happy independently but then we get married for the purpose of sharing our lives with our spouse and meeting each other's intimate needs. When our spouse no longer meets those needs....we get depressed. For most people, their marriage is the most important relationship in their life (or it should be). How can we not get depressed when that person is no longer interested in meeting needs that ONLY they should meet? If we turn to others to meet our needs for affection, intimate conversation, sex, and companionship, we're being unfaithful.

I think you'd find a lot of help in Marriage Builders. His Needs, Her Needs covers this. Bottom line: You're not being needy for wanting your wife to meet the needs only she is supposed to meet. Your wife does not want to do this because she's not in love with you. You think that is all your fault. It's not. 

You said a while back that your wife just wants you to be happy. If this is true, and the only issue she has with the marriage, then why won't she meet your needs?

I think you might need to investigate an EA. To many, sexting is enough evidence of an EA. Have you considered that? Are you sure they're no longer in contact? I'm concerned that you are not willing to tell your wife to end all contact with the guy she was sexting with, but simply to stop with the sexting. If that's the case, she might have feelings for this guy that she is not telling you about (most don't) and that could also be another BIG issue affecting your marriage. In fact, it might be the biggest one, aside from her overwhelm with being the breadwinner right now.

If that's the case, NO WONDER you're depressed. What man wouldn't be if his wife is having an EA?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I don't think she's inspired.

Keep meeting her needs, like reassuring her the other day when she was worried. That should get some interest going.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You say you withdraw?

Never do that. See my signature.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

First, I want to thank you again for engaging with me. This thread has been very helpful. I feel like I should be paying you all or something, lol.



Jessica38 said:


> Your MC doesn't sound very helpful, TBH.


Whelp, better than the counselor several years ago who essentially said, 'Have you tried not having needs?' lol

When I brought up to her that the lack of sex in my life was really hurting me, she asked, 'What else could you focus on instead of needing sex?' I felt like I was being treated like a sex addict (something my wife accused me of once, also). It's hard to get any validation for the idea that a lack of sex (which, for me, is nearly equivalent to a lack of intimacy, since my experience is that sex and intimacy often go hand in hand) might actually be an issue. Talking about my desire for sex (or a sexual relationship more generally) always leaves me feeling like I'm some primitive brute or horny teenager... 



> For most people, their marriage is the most important relationship in their life (or it should be).


While I can see this being true, I definitely now feel like one's marriage shouldn't be the most important thing in their life. I feel like my biggest mistake in life was looking at my marriage as my crowning achievement. I used to talk with such pride about how beautiful and 'special' I felt my marriage was. That just seems pathetic and cringey now. I invested way too much of my emotional life into my wife and my marriage, when I should have been building my own independent life up instead.



> How can we not get depressed when that person is no longer interested in meeting needs that ONLY they should meet? If we turn to others to meet our needs for affection, intimate conversation, sex, and companionship, we're being unfaithful.


Well, you won't see any argument from me on this, lol. This has been my struggle, the question I've been trying to answer, ever since it all fell apart. You and I certainly seem to be in the minority with this question, as I haven't found much support for this view.



> I think you'd find a lot of help in Marriage Builders. His Needs, Her Needs covers this.


I read the PDF, and I have to say that he does seem to be striking to the heart of the matter. He is addressing the issue I've had with a lot of relationship books since the beginning - if the 'love', or the feelings of being 'in love' aren't there, how much can really be accomplished in 'doing' more (communicating, problem solving, speaking 'love languages', etc) when what is being done isn't motivated by feelings of love?



> Your wife does not want to do this because she's not in love with you. You think that is all your fault. It's not.


Well, it's tough, because my wife won't ever say that she isn't in love with me, and it hurts her to hear that I'm not feeling in love with her. She claims that she still loves me, but that our relationship is fundamentally different now, and I need to accept the new reality. It's not about me, it's not even about 'us' anymore - it's about our son (primarily), our careers, our living situation, etc. She is very goal oriented, so she tends to focus her main energies on achieving goals in life.



> You said a while back that your wife just wants you to be happy. If this is true, and the only issue she has with the marriage, then why won't she meet your needs?


She wants me to find something that makes me happy besides her and our marriage. She wants to see me have my own goals. Like doing more projects for the family, for example, or finding a new career that I can focus my energies on. I think she very much wants me to be more independent, though I also have a feeling that it really isn't a carte blanche to do whatever I want. Anything that doesn't make a direct contribution to the family gets looked at skeptically and critically (which, of course, includes my 'obsession' with reading marriage books and even participating in online conversations like this one). 

She also thinks that my 'needs' are unrealistic, unreasonable and exhausting, the result of my being narcissistically-inclined and emotionally unhealthy/dependent. She wishes I'd stop thinking about how I feel - especially about her and our marriage - and just focus on the practicalities of life. I wish I could do that more, too.



> I think you might need to investigate an EA. To many, sexting is enough evidence of an EA. Have you considered that?


Not to worry - I've always had an eye out for that. To be honest, for a long time I was almost hoping to discover that sort of thing, as it would provide some easy answers and would help me make sense of what happened (as well as letting me off the hook for our marital problems). 

But the thing is - an EA just doesn't fit her MO. Not because she is some girl scout/saint who 'would never do that sort of thing' (though I do think she does place a great deal of importance on integrity - part of why I got so upset with her deleting the texts), but because she's not one inclined to indulge in such 'touchy-feely' stuff, and she doesn't 'catch feelz' much, if at all. 

She doesn't like to talk about feelings, and she rarely, if ever, 'opens up' to anyone emotionally (including me), even her girlfriends. I would say that she has a fraught relationship with intimacy, and too much 'intimate talk' can make her uncomfortable. While she is very sociable, and everyone loves her (like, moreso than any other person I know), she keeps herself at a distance from almost everyone except her family (she is very close with her family, and puts most of her social energy there). Her socializing is pretty much limited to the women she works with and other mothers. It's really not in her to develop close, intimate friendships (her closest friend lives in a nearby city, and they only see each other once or twice a year).

If anything, I would suspect a PA before I would suspect an EA, and there is even less evidence of/justification for a PA (though you never know, of course). 



> Are you sure they're no longer in contact?


As sure as I can be (and my eyes are open). But the thing is, even the 'contact' they did/do have is a once-in-a-blue-moon sort of thing, so it's hardly a significant part of her life, and I wouldn't expect there to be another contact again for several months. The last contact they had was last summer, and there was no further contact until a couple weeks ago (contact which involved about 20 texts back and forth). 



> I'm concerned that you are not willing to tell your wife to end all contact with the guy she was sexting with, but simply to stop with the sexting.


Well, again, their contact has mostly been the occasional sext, and it's been very intermittent (eight months between contacts this last time). I feel like there is already almost no contact to speak of, so I haven't made a bigger deal about no contact (instead, the big deal is her reaction to it when it did happen this last time).

As far as I can tell (and I've looked), these bi-annual one-offs are the only contact of that type she has with *anyone*. 



> If that's the case, she might have feelings for this guy that she is not telling you about (most don't) and that could also be another BIG issue affecting your marriage.


She might. It's highly unlikely, knowing her, him, the nature of their contact/relationship, and her expressed feelings about him, but you can never know for sure what is in someone else's head.

Additionally, the text exchanges have the emotional depth of your average porn video, so if she does have feelings (besides the desire to feel desired), they aren't being shared in the texts (or anywhere else, for that matter). 

Again, if she were having an affair - EA or PA - our friend is a very unlikely candidate for an AP. I feel confident that, if her energy is going to someone else, it's not him. 

Now, the fact that she did what she did does introduce an element of doubt as to what *else* she might be capable of doing, but there just aren't any red flags that I can find, other than trouble in our marriage (which she tends to see as a result of my unhappiness, not hers).


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> You say you withdraw?
> 
> Never do that. See my signature.


I understand. It's a coping mechanism on my part. It's hard to not let the criticism and rejection and contempt get to me, even though some of that may now just be in my head (as my wife claims it is). 

But I've got to get strong enough that I don't take her behavior and attitude personally, or let it affect how I behave. I can't let her view of me become who I am. That's my goal.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I understand. It's a coping mechanism on my part. It's hard to not let the criticism and rejection and contempt get to me, even though some of that may now just be in my head (as my wife claims it is).
> 
> But I've got to get strong enough that I don't take her behavior and attitude personally, or let it affect how I behave. That's my goal.


It is a good one.

But if you cannot do it, at least be honest with her without blaming her for your feelings.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> It is a good one.
> 
> But if you cannot do it, at least be honest with her without blaming her for your feelings.


Well, if there is one thing I have learned, it's that the only things I can control or change are my reactions and my responses. She's going to be who she is going to be, doing what she does, feelings as she feels. If I can become less sensitive and emotionally dependent on her (or anyone, for that matter), I will have the freedom to react and respond in ways that reflect who I want to be as a person. I have to stop thinking so much about things like 'her' and 'us', and start focusing on 'me.'

For example, we had a brief interaction (all of our interactions are brief) yesterday where she gave me **** about spending so much time on this thread. I personally can see the benefit I've gained from participating here, and I just have to focus on that (while still being responsible for everything else, of course). I gotta do what I gotta do to get me where I need to be, even if sometimes the road is long, winding, lonely, and not immediately 'productive.'


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> First, I want to thank you again for engaging with me. This thread has been very helpful. I feel like I should be paying you all or something, lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Well, if there is one thing I have learned, it's that the only things I can control or change are my reactions and my responses. She's going to be who she is going to be, doing what she does, feelings as she feels. If I can become less sensitive and emotionally dependent on her (or anyone, for that matter), I will have the freedom to react and respond in ways that reflect who I want to be as a person. I have to stop thinking so much about things like 'her' and 'us', and start focusing on 'me.'
> 
> For example, we had a brief interaction (all of our interactions are brief) yesterday where she gave me **** about spending so much time on this thread. I personally can see the benefit I've gained from participating here, and I just have to focus on that (while still being responsible for everything else, of course). I gotta do what I gotta do to get me where I need to be, even if sometimes the road is long, winding, lonely, and not immediately 'productive.'


Were you defensive with her?

How about asking her to tell you more about what bothers her about your participation here?

_Hint_: Listen to the feelings behind her words.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> Were you defensive with her?


At first, yes. I felt like she was wanting me to justify how I was spending my time. 



> How about asking her to tell you more about what bothers her about your participation here?


I think she was fairly clear. I believe her words were, "I just wonder what you might be able to get done if you weren't spending time on this stuff. Is this really how you want to use your time? Just sayin'..." 




> _Hint_: Listen to the feelings behind her words.


Frustration? Contempt? Disappointment? I don't think it's any great mystery.

It's been a long-standing wish of hers that I would stop worrying about our marriage and start focusing on doing more in life.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I think she was fairly clear. I believe her words were, "I just wonder what you might be able to get done if you weren't spending time on this stuff. Is this really how you want to use your time? Just sayin'..."
> 
> Frustration? Contempt? Disappointment? I don't think it's any great mystery.
> 
> It's been a long-standing wish of hers that I would stop worrying about our marriage and start focusing on doing more in life.


Her statement is passive aggressive.

"Wife, how I choose to prioritize my tasks and spend my time is up to me. For someone who tells me I should focus more on managing my own happiness while simultaneously claiming to be too busy to consider meeting my needs in the marriage, you seem to have plenty of time to be concerned about what I do and how I choose to do it. Help me understand the inconsistency."


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> I do want to ask a personal question though- how often are you approaching your wife for sex?


I don't really, anymore. I stopped approaching, for the most part, a few years back. I tried again a few months ago when our son was at his grandparents for the night, given that we had been doing some work on our marriage, but she told me that she didn't feel safe enough or comfortable enough to have sex with me at that point, so that was the last time I approached (and I hadn't approached for at least a year prior to that). 

Of course, looking back, I could have handled things a bit better, but I just couldn't deal with the rejection and the frustration anymore, and I actively worked to 'kill off' my desire for her (and for sex in general) rather than continue to suffer in my celibacy, as well as to mitigate the frustration of being married to someone who seemed to have both minimal, and sometimes capricious, sexual interest in me. That 'killing off' action was not a good move, as it just further drove a wedge between us sexually and intimately, and came across as a punitive action on my part. I'm doing my best to correct that now, though it is a hard mindset to break, made harder by the fact that she is in no way interested in trying to convince someone to have sex with her (understandable). 

I rarely turned down her approaches, though. With only a few exceptions, I would have sex with her any time she wanted. A couple of exceptions were when I was feeling really hurt and confused by her, and I lashed out by rejecting her approach. Bad move, as that one rejection from me probably equaled a hundred rejections from her. I figured that, as many times as she had rejected me, she would understand how I might feel in rejecting her, but that was a horrible miscalculation on my part... :smh:

To be fair to her, there were also some issues on her side that I wasn't fully aware of, like just how awful her pregnancy was and the fact that sex was really painful for her for at least a year after our son was born (though our slow slide into a sexless marriage started long before the pregnancy and birth of our son). But she never really talked about what was happening or let me in on it (again, she tends to be incredibly closed-off and private about her feelings and problems). She never really expressed remorse that we couldn't be sexual, and she didn't really offer any alternatives (I would have taken anything at that point, even just a make-out session), so I just assumed that either had gone completely asexual or that she wasn't attracted to me (or both, though I'm pretty sure the latter is true also).



> After learning more, I don't think you're being treated fairly AT ALL.


Of course, you are only getting one side of the story, lol. I'm sure if you talked to my wife, she would say that *she* isn't being treated fairly at all.



> There is a ton of expert evidence showing that couples in successful marriages turn towards each other to meet needs as opposed to turning away


Oh yeah, I'm aware of that.

That comes back, though, to questions of what 'needs' can be considered legitimate, when is someone being overly dependent, and the fact that you shouldn't look to others for your happiness.



> Her approach to marriage sounds wrong and unfair to me.


I understand, but this is only one-side here, lol. 

I will clarify, too - I shouldn't say that the new reality 'isn't about us'. It's more 'it's now about you, me, and our son and our future.' So the 'us' now just includes a couple other entities as well.



> And I'd argue that it isn't working out well for her- her husband is unhappy in the marriage, with good reason.


Which is why she is really hoping I find something that makes me happy. As far as with good reason? That is debatable, apparently.

So many people challenge me when I talk about my unhappiness in my marriage. They usually say, "You have a great life! You have a nice house, a great kid, a good (if maybe imperfect) wife - what more are you really looking for?" It makes me feel like I'm delusional or broken, like my unhappiness is that of a spoiled child. I never know what to think...

------------------------------

Thanks for your response. My son needs me right now, so I'm sorry but I can't finish this tonight. I will respond to the second part of your comments as soon as I have some time tomorrow. G'night!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> At first, yes. I felt like she was wanting me to justify how I was spending my time.


Did you admit you were defensive and apologize for it, then ask her to please continue to share her thoughts? 

That kind of empathetic, responsible and genuinely interested response can go a long way towards deepening her trust in you, and keeping communication lines open. It takes a lot of inner strength to do, but can pay big dividends.



> I think she was fairly clear. I believe her words were, "I just wonder what you might be able to get done if you weren't spending time on this stuff. Is this really how you want to use your time? Just sayin'..."


I understand it is tempting to be defensive when you hear those words. But responding in a self-justifying way, and being aggressive back to her, is unlikely to earn her trust and deepen the relationship.

Instead, take an inner deep breath, and with genuine interest, either engage in Active Listening (the easiest way is to repeat her words back to her, or paraphrase them), or just say, "Tell me more," and then sincerely listen to what she has to say.



> Frustration? Contempt? Disappointment? I don't think it's any great mystery.
> 
> It's been a long-standing wish of hers that I would stop worrying about our marriage and start focusing on doing more in life.


How about reflecting this back to her?

_"Wife, you feel I may not be spending my time as profitably as possible by spending time on TAM. You feel it might be wiser to spend it doing x,y,z? If I did those things instead, it might make you feel a,b,c? Is that correct? If not, please help me understand."_

Again, the idea is to open up genuine, heartfelt communication by being open to whatever she may be feeling. It does not mean you have to agree with it. But you want her to feel comfortable telling you whatever she may be feeling, without worrying you will get defensive in any way. 

You are trying to create emotional safety in the relationship for her. That can start the process of deepening your connection. And it definitely shows intelligence, emotional leadership and inner strength on your part--all likely very attractive to a smart woman like your wife.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Just read your response to Jessica. You show a lot of self-awareness in your post, Dazed. You are someone who can be worked with with, and your wife realizes that. That is surely why she continues to try in the marriage.

Do you remember the other day when you made the comment that she would see something as "just another way she has to accommodate my sensitive ass"? That shows self-awareness right there, and a lack of "right-fighting." You do not try to defend yourself; you know your sensitivity is likely to be a pain to her.

Question: Have you ever admitted that to her? Just said it straight out, just that directly? What was her response?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Dazed:

What is your wife actually putting into the marriage?

Here's the thing, dude. Your wife is in a roommate type relationship with you. She seems perfectly content with that, and any attempt by you to get more effort from her is met by you being accused of being needy?

Did I read that right that you have not had sex in 3 years?

You don't have a marriage. You have a business arrangement. I don't care how much your wife or your counselor may say this is your problem to fix. This dynamic was created by both of you. I see a willingness from you to try and work for improvement. I see no such thing from her.

Show me where I am wrong.

In fact, why don't you do your very best present her side. Help me understand how any of this is justified in her head.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Dazed:
> 
> What is your wife actually putting into the marriage?
> 
> ...


This x100. Bottom line: Your wife is not responding to you the way a woman in love with her husband would respond. You admit that you're not in love at this point either. Start here. It's fixable, but it will require that she work to improve the marriage too. Here's how, if you follow the Marriage Builders plan in His Needs, Her Needs and Lovebusters:

1. Schedule 15 hours a week together to meet the top 4 emotional needs: intimate conversation, affection, recreational companionship, and sex. If she is not interested in sex, start with the other things and see if you can get there. If not, realize this is temporary. It's your best-shot effort to improve the marriage.

2. Eliminate all lovebusters: withdrawal, criticism, contempt, anger, annoying habits. You can lead by example here- if you change how you respond to your wife, she will likely change how she responds to you. Stay positive in your interactions with her.

3. Continue investigating her interaction/texts/contact with other men- if she has feelings for someone else (an EA) none of this will work. You'd have to bust up any relationship where another man is possibly meeting her emotional needs first, otherwise you're in competition with him and it will be hard to compete when he's a fun release from real life and you're....real life.

4. Give it a time frame to see if this works (6 months, 1 year). If not, you may need to consider separating, unless you intend to live in a sexless roommate situation for another decade. Keep in mind that your son is watching your relationship to learn what it means to be married. I'm all for trying to fix the marriage first, but you can't do it alone.

In all of this, the ONE area I think you need to focus on independent of your marriage is fixing the job situation. This will not only make you more attractive to your wife, but it will prepare you to move on without her if she does not work with you to fix the marriage.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Her statement is passive aggressive.


Ya think? lol

Yeah, it pissed me off. I made it clear that taking pot shots and then running away doesn't fly, I don't care what the problem is. Seems like that is what occurs between us the most - problems are brought up (or hinte at) and then never followed up on or resolved.



> "Wife, how I choose to prioritize my tasks and spend my time is up to me. For someone who tells me I should focus more on managing my own happiness while simultaneously claiming to be too busy to consider meeting my needs in the marriage, you seem to have plenty of time to be concerned about what I do and how I choose to do it. Help me understand the inconsistency."


Not my wife, but I can imagine some of the responses to this...

"Is what you are doing actually making you happy? You don't seem to be much happier. Is it enabling you to accomplish anything? What have you been able to achieve as a result of all your time investment? What goals are you fulfilling through all this activity?"

"While it's up to you how you prioritize your tasks and spend your time, what you do or don't do has a direct impact on your family. Is what you are doing the best thing you can be doing for your family who needs you? Everything I do is for the benefit of our family, and I want a partner who takes the family and it's needs as seriously as I do."

"I don't have time to meet all your needs because your needs demand a lot of time and energy, time and energy I don't have right now. That doesn't mean I'm completely unaware of what you are doing or how you choose to spend your time."

Those are just a few off the top of my head...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> 4. Give it a time frame to see if this works (6 months, 1 year). If not, you may need to consider separating, unless you intend to live in a sexless roommate situation for another decade. Keep in mind that your son is watching your relationship to learn what it means to be married. I'm all for trying to fix the marriage first, but you can't do it alone.


This one part I think bears emphasis for you specifically, Dazed. Set this time limit, and have the discipline to follow through, lest you be here three years from now still trying to perform CPR on the dead.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> Did you admit you were defensive and apologize for it, then ask her to please continue to share her thoughts?
> 
> That kind of empathetic, responsible and genuinely interested response can go a long way towards deepening her trust in you, and keeping communication lines open. It takes a lot of inner strength to do, but can pay big dividends.
> 
> ...


I get your point. There is probably a lot more I could do to descalate these sorts of situations (which happen all the freakin' time).

But I'm also not sure how much of a commitment she has to actually communicating. 

As with most problems either great or small (and this one was on the small end of the spectrum), they get brought up but there is never either the time or space to hash them out. Especially since we try to avoid arguments and/or fights in front of our son (who is usually always around), and since the friction always arises when we're trying to say, get dinner ready, or get out the door for something, or needing to attend to our son. For several years, our communication has had to happen within five minute time boxes, which is rarely productive and usually frustrating as hell (at least for me).

That's why I was proud of my response the other day, when I was able to resolve the issue in the brief moment when we were actually alone in the same room for a couple minutes and before my wife got out the door. I've got to practice that until I can find ways to accomplish the same thing for most of our conflicts.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I get your point. There is probably a lot more I could do to descalate these sorts of situations (which happen all the freakin' time).
> 
> But I'm also not sure how much of a commitment she has to actually communicating.
> 
> ...


Don't worry about her commitment. Focus on yours.

How about saying, "Hold that thought," when time is short. That lets her know that you have heard her and intend to get back to her. You are not dismissing her in any way. That should make her feel respected, especially if you remember to bring it up, and focus on seeking her thoughts on it, during the next five minute interaction.

You did a great job the other day, when you reacted to her worries by reassuring her. Definitely something to build on in the future.

Even if you are not the financial leader in the marriage, you can be the emotional one. That is what I am trying to help you with, anyway.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> I'd ask her why bother to be married then? She can do all of that as a single woman. Why have a husband at all?



I'm sure she asks herself that question all the time as well.

I do know that she wants our marriage to work, first and foremost, for the sake of our son. She also says that she loves and cares about me, and would worry about me if we were to go our own way. She doesn't like to see me miserable, and it would pain her even more to think of me being *alone* and miserable if we got divorced.



> Does she have emotional needs that she expects you to meet at all?


She has said that she would like for me to be more affectionate (that's why she almost broke down when I came home and gave her a hug out of the blue) and would like me to ask about her day more. She would like me to be more warm and engaged, as well as being strong and not letting my negativity and neuroses impact the family. She would just like a nice, relaxed, happy home life. She wants me to be more of a 'rock', as it were.



> Or does she turn to others to meet them (conversation, affection, companionship, sex)?


I don't know that she has found another 'rock' in her life (of whatever sort). I think her parents fulfill that role some, but I don't see it happening anywhere else.

I think she gets most of those needs met by her work and our son (not the sex, obviously, lol, but definitely affection and companionship). I don't see her reaching out to other people much, if ever. In her last job (that she recently quite because it was overwhelming her with stress almost daily), she worked in a department that was almost entirely women, and I know that she developed some good friendships there. She still tries to get together with them on a semi-monthly basis, but other than that, she usually just wants to be home and with our son. She doesn't do a lot of socializing. She'd rather focus on home, family, and her career than 'emotional needs', I would say.

As you point out, she is very independent, and has always been like that. As beloved as she is by everyone (which, as I've said, she is, at a level that I've never seen in anyone else), she doesn't really do 'close' or 'intimate' much. She's kind of an loner, despite her charming and sociable demeanor.

EDIT:

As far as the "what does she want a husband for?" thing - I think she is like many women in that she wants her husband to be the other half of a 'power couple' sort of thing. She would like to be married to someone who can help her accomplish her goals in life. She wants someone who will help her build the kind of life she really wants.

I read somewhere recently that men are romantics who pretend to be realists, and that women are realists who pretend to be romantics. I think that perfectly summarizes our situation...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Dazed:
> 
> What is your wife actually putting into the marriage?


Working her a$$ off, with almost singular focus, to both advance her career so she can provide a good material life for her family and to ensure that my son has the best opportunities available to him (and she generally does take the lead on things like researching schools, summer camps, after-school programs, educational opportunities/activities, etc).

When I push her to be there more for 'us', she generally points me to the above. She wishes that I could just love her for what she already is doing, rather than making her feel like she still has to do more for 'us.'

Though I usually point out that it's not just a 'doing' thing, but a 'being' thing. I realize that the '15 hours a week' thing (or whatever) may be a logistical nightmare at this point, but I would like to feel closeness and intimacy with my partner regardless.

Case in point - I learned of our second pregnancy three years ago (something I had grave reservations about, given that I thought our marriage was already in enough trouble already) because I read a letter that came in the mail from her doctor. That just seemed so wrong to me (but par for the course at that point). She came home from work and had brought a piece of cake for me in order to celebrate 'the big announcement', but I just couldn't believe she didn't communicate the news directly as soon as she knew the however many days before. It was weird...

The pregnancy ended in a miscarriage, and during that difficult time, she actually took off work and made time to talk. She said, "I miss talking with you", and I almost teared up, because that was the first time in a couple of years that I felt like she even wanted to be around me.



> Here's the thing, dude. Your wife is in a roommate type relationship with you. She seems perfectly content with that, and any attempt by you to get more effort from her is met by you being accused of being needy?


I wouldn't say perfectly content. She occasionally mentions that she, too, is unhappy with the marriage. And life in general. Nothing has really ended up being as she had hoped and dreamed. I didn't turn out to be the husband she had hoped I was, but she (unlike me) is just doing her best to deal with things and to not let the disappointments distract her from what needs to be done. She doesn't know why I can't just do the same thing.

She also sees me as needy, because (apparently) she feels that the reason we had such a 'perfect' marriage prior was because she was giving too much of herself to the marriage (something that I feel like I did as well, but whatever) and that she lost herself catering to me and my 'needs.' She doesn't want to do that again, nor does she feel like she even *can* do that again, given all the other needs in life. Harsh viewpoint to confront for me...



> Did I read that right that you have not had sex in 3 years?


Sex became more and more of an issue about seven years ago (during the tumultuous time of me losing my job, us moving to a bigger house, my dad dying and me being gone for weeks at a time trying to help my mom, etc). I could definitely feel her losing attraction for me. The bottom dropped out of our sex life after she got pregnant, and it's been mostly sexless ever since. 

In fact, it was easy to establish when we got pregnant the second time - her gyno thought we had determined the conception date incorrectly (off by a couple weeks), but we had only had sex one time in the months prior, so we were pretty clear as to when conception actually took place. Turns out, of course, that the reason the gyno thought the conception date was different is because the fetus wasn't developing normally, which is what led to the miscarriage a few weeks later.



> I see a willingness from you to try and work for improvement. I see no such thing from her.


She would claim that she is doing a lot of work on her end, mostly to try to be a better person and less of a ***** so we can have a harmonious life (to her credit, she has made progress - she tends to ***** and complain a lot less, and her passive-aggressive behavior and lashing out in frustration has definitely dialed back). She just feels like she is doing everything she can to keep the ship on course, and doesn't like the idea that she should somehow be doing more.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> Don't worry about her commitment. Focus on yours.


Yep. Thanks. That's been one of the big takeaways I've gotten from this thread. Again, I can't control or change anyone else, but I can lead by example.



> How about saying, "Hold that thought," when time is short. That lets her know that you have heard her and intend to get back to her. You are not dismissing her in any way. That should make her feel respected, especially if you remember to bring it up, and focus on seeking her thoughts on it, during the next five minute interaction.


Yeah, I like this. If nothing else, it might make her pause before throwing out her random passive aggressive comments. She will know that *I* won't just drop it, and that she will have to have a conversation about it eventually, if not immediately.



> Even if you are not the financial leader in the marriage, you can be the emotional one. That is what I am trying to help you with, anyway.


I appreciate that. That is something I came to realize quite a while ago, actually, and I've been trying to create for myself for some time. I just haven't been particularly effective at accomplishing that. This conversation, however, has done a lot to help me focus my mind and my efforts to that end.

I may never achieve being the financial leader again (or, at least, a financial equal, which is usually what I was), but I can do what I can with what I've got. Being an emotional/'spiritual' leader would make a big difference for not just my wife, but for my son. I want him to have a father he can really look up to, feel proud of, and draw strength from. And I know my wife would like for me to 'be the boss' with her again, too.

Thanks for your support! This whole thing has been incredibly helpful to me.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Incidentally, my wife did offer today that she is really getting serious about losing weight (she has really put on a ton of weight in the last few years). She jokingly remarked, "Maybe you could forgive my *****y behavior more if I looked hot again, lol..."

It's good that she can laugh about this stuff. She knows she isn't being my ideal wife, either, and at least she is doing some work on her own to address that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Yep. Thanks. That's been one of the big takeaways I've gotten from this thread. Again, I can't control or change anyone else, but I can lead by example.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My pleasure! 

What are the things she says that feel passive aggressive to you? Maybe we can break them down and figure out the underlying message.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Incidentally, my wife did offer today that she is really getting serious about losing weight (she has really put on a ton of weight in the last few years). She jokingly remarked, "Maybe you could forgive my *****y behavior more if I looked hot again, lol..."
> 
> It's good that she can laugh about this stuff. She knows she isn't being my ideal wife, either, and at least she is doing some work on her own to address that.


Self-awareness.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Working her a$$ off, with almost singular focus, to both advance her career so she can provide a good material life for her family and to ensure that my son has the best opportunities available to him (and she generally does take the lead on things like researching schools, summer camps, after-school programs, educational opportunities/activities, etc).
> 
> When I push her to be there more for 'us', she generally points me to the above. She wishes that I could just love her for what she already is doing, rather than making her feel like she still has to do more for 'us.'
> 
> Though I usually point out that it's not just a 'doing' thing, but a 'being' thing. I realize that the '15 hours a week' thing (or whatever) may be a logistical nightmare at this point, but I would like to feel closeness and intimacy with my partner regardless.


Nothing in here is stuff she does for the marriage, other than trying not to treat you like crap. What a stellar way to treat your spouse.

Here is a simple exercise. Ask her to list all of the things she does for you. You list work, providing, advancing her career, researching schools for your child, etc.

Question: If you were to die tomorrow, how much of that stuff would she still do? 

Answer: All of it. Why? Because it is not for you; it is for her and your child. 

You are lying to yourself if you believe any of that is for you. You may bear some benefit from it because you happen to be a member of the family, but none of it is being done for you. Period.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> Case in point - I learned of our second pregnancy three years ago (something I had grave reservations about, given that I thought our marriage was already in enough trouble already) because I read a letter that came in the mail from her doctor. That just seemed so wrong to me (but par for the course at that point). She came home from work and had brought a piece of cake for me in order to celebrate 'the big announcement', but I just couldn't believe she didn't communicate the news directly as soon as she knew the however many days before. It was weird...
> 
> The pregnancy ended in a miscarriage, and during that difficult time, she actually took off work and made time to talk. She said, "I miss talking with you", and I almost teared up, because that was the first time in a couple of years that I felt like she even wanted to be around me.


"Wife, the only thing stopping you is you."

Your wife has her ass planted firmly in the victim chair, and is quite comfortable there. 

Your actions (and your therapists words) are enabling her to remain seated in said victim chair. She is unhappy, and it is all your fault. Convenient, that.

Did I link this for you yet? If not, read it, and read it very carefully. It will explain much in both of your behaviors. 

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/  



Dazedconfuzed said:


> I wouldn't say perfectly content. She occasionally mentions that she, too, is unhappy with the marriage. And life in general. Nothing has really ended up being as she had hoped and dreamed. I didn't turn out to be the husband she had hoped I was, but she (unlike me) is just doing her best to deal with things and to not let the disappointments distract her from what needs to be done. She doesn't know why I can't just do the same thing.
> 
> She also sees me as needy, because (apparently) she feels that the reason we had such a 'perfect' marriage prior was because she was giving too much of herself to the marriage (something that I feel like I did as well, but whatever) and that she lost herself catering to me and my 'needs.' She doesn't want to do that again, nor does she feel like she even *can* do that again, given all the other needs in life. Harsh viewpoint to confront for me...


Here you are, trying to get back to a marriage you considered ideal, and she is telling you she never wants to be in a marriage like that again. Where is the compromise in those polar opposites?



Dazedconfuzed said:


> Sex became more and more of an issue about seven years ago (during the tumultuous time of me losing my job, us moving to a bigger house, my dad dying and me being gone for weeks at a time trying to help my mom, etc). I could definitely feel her losing attraction for me. The bottom dropped out of our sex life after she got pregnant, and it's been mostly sexless ever since.
> 
> In fact, it was easy to establish when we got pregnant the second time - her gyno thought we had determined the conception date incorrectly (off by a couple weeks), but we had only had sex one time in the months prior, so we were pretty clear as to when conception actually took place. Turns out, of course, that the reason the gyno thought the conception date was different is because the fetus wasn't developing normally, which is what led to the miscarriage a few weeks later.


I am sorry that happened. I would not wish it upon anyone.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> She would claim that she is doing a lot of work on her end, mostly to try to be a better person and less of a ***** so we can have a harmonious life (to her credit, she has made progress - she tends to ***** and complain a lot less, and her passive-aggressive behavior and lashing out in frustration has definitely dialed back). She just feels like she is doing everything she can to keep the ship on course, and doesn't like the idea that she should somehow be doing more.


Please recognize what she is saying. She is unwilling to do more. Her ideal regarding marriage is either really screwed up, or she simply resents you so much that she is refusing to see the ideal anymore.

Please, please set your timeline. Without it, you will be dragging the corpse of your marriage for years into the future. Until that timeline, work your ass off to make it better, but allow yourself to recognize if/when the effort is fruitless, and pull the plug.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

This comment is the lone shimmer of hope I have seen from her in this thread.

The weight explains some. She does not like either you or herself, so not only are you bearing the brunt of how she feels about you, but also how she feels about herself.



Dazedconfuzed said:


> Incidentally, my wife did offer today that she is really getting serious about losing weight (she has really put on a ton of weight in the last few years). She jokingly remarked, "Maybe you could forgive my *****y behavior more if I looked hot again, lol..."
> 
> It's good that she can laugh about this stuff. She knows she isn't being my ideal wife, either, and at least she is doing some work on her own to address that.


----------



## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> It's fixable, but it will require that she work to improve the marriage too.


I think she is going about working to improve the marriage her own way, which is to work on herself first. I know she has been doing a lot of work on having compassion and giving up resentments. She is trying to open her heart to me again.



> 1. Schedule 15 hours a week together to meet the top 4 emotional needs: intimate conversation, affection, recreational companionship, and sex.


While I sometimes feel like scheduling 15 hours a week may be trying to get blood from a stone, I have no doubt it would help.

The first thing to determine, though, is what she actually she's as her needs. As someone so independent and so averse to all things emotional (at least, overtly emotional - she is certainly as emotionally-driven as any other woman I know), that may prove to be a trick.

And is it bad that I feel like all of those are needs for me? lol



> 2. Eliminate all lovebusters: withdrawal, criticism, contempt, anger, annoying habits.


I think this is where she has been working. I certainly notice that she has been trying to tone down the criticism, contempt, and anger, as well as being more 'open' to the idea that we can actually work together on things.



> You can lead by example here- if you change how you respond to your wife, she will likely change how she responds to you. Stay positive in your interactions with her.


And that is something I'm really taking to heart. I am committed to stopping my own passive aggressive behavior and negativity.



> Continue investigating her interaction/texts/contact with other men- if she has feelings for someone else (an EA) none of this will work. You'd have to bust up any relationship where another man is possibly meeting her emotional needs first, otherwise you're in competition with him and it will be hard to compete when he's a fun release from real life and you're....real life.


I totally get this.

Like I said, I almost wish I could blame the problems on something like an affair, instead of them being a result of her resentment of and contempt for me. The depth of her hurt is really disturbing to me. 

I am no stranger to cheating and cheaters (unfortunately or fortunately, I'm not sure). Not only do I recognize the signs, but my gut feelings were pretty accurate as well. Because of that, and the fact that my wife would have had to completely change her standard MO (not likely, even under stress - her MO is driven by some pretty deep-rooted and powerful personality characteristics that I can't imagine would have suddenly lost their grip on her), I feel fairly confident that cheating isn't the issue. It's me/us.

And our problems started years ago and haven't changed much since. So either an affair has been going on under my (naturally suspicious and sensitive) nose for many years without my ever seeing a red flag or getting a strong gut feeling, or an affair isn't the culprit. If nothing else, I feel like I can do a pretty good accounting of everywhere she spends both her time and her energy. There aren't many outstanding questions or missing pieces, by my account. 



> Give it a time frame to see if this works (6 months, 1 year).


Are you suggesting this for my own use, or that I use it as an ultimatum?



> In all of this, the ONE area I think you need to focus on independent of your marriage is fixing the job situation. This will not only make you more attractive to your wife, but it will prepare you to move on without her if she does not work with you to fix the marriage.


It does need to be done. I don't know that I'll be able to land the kind of job that will make me attractive to her (or most women I know, for that matter), especially within the next six months or year, but clearly that would be one way I can develop more independence. I gotta admit - I'm stopped by the overwhelm, but I'm just going to have to figure it out.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Here is a simple exercise. Ask her to list all of the things she does for you. You list work, providing, advancing her career, researching schools for your child, etc.
> 
> Question: If you were to die tomorrow, how much of that stuff would she still do?
> 
> Answer: All of it. Why? Because it is not for you; it is for her and your child.


Well, and she would probably say that if she died, I would have to take over that stuff, and I am not even in as solid of a position to do so. I'm not sure I can win that particular comparative analysis. 



> You are lying to yourself if you believe any of that is for you. You may bear some benefit from it because you happen to be a member of the family, but none of it is being done for you. Period.


Well, I tend to look at anything done for my child as something done for me, as his well-being is of utmost importance to me. 

And I think she could easily make the same argument about my contributions. Yes, she benefits from my taking care of our domestic life as much as I can, but I would keep doing them (albeit with less workload and concern for her desires) if she were gone. 



> Your wife has her ass planted firmly in the victim chair, and is quite comfortable there.


Yeah, we probably both are. This is where I need to lead by example.

Though I would say that both she and our therapist are encouraging me to stop holding on to the past and to move forward. My wife claims that that is what she is doing (or really trying to do), but I do know that I'm still harboring many hurts and resentments that are stopping me from really opening up again and moving forward. I'm not sure exactly how I am going to go about bringing down my walls, but clearly that needs to happen.



> She is unhappy, and it is all your fault. Convenient, that.


Well, at this point they may be right. My wife says that she has accepted me for who I am and is willing to forgive the past and move forward, but I haven't done the same. One of my problems is that I am no longer entirely sure of who she is (especially if she felt like she was playing a role for most of our many years together) and what our relationship is at this point.



> Did I link this for you yet? If not, read it, and read it very carefully. It will explain much in both of your behaviors.
> 
> https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/


The link seems to be dead. I tried to Google it as well, and came up empty handed. :frown2:



> Here you are, trying to get back to a marriage you considered ideal, and she is telling you she never wants to be in a marriage like that again. Where is the compromise in those polar opposites?


Well, first of all, I do understand that having a child 'changes everything', so I know there is no going back to that previous ideal. But I'm just trying to figure out what *parts* of that ideal I can/should expect, and which were the result of my own self-centeredness, neediness, or stubbornness. My wife has said she feels like she was an 'enabler' for me and/or that she may have been a 'narcissistic supply' for me. It's been hard to establish what is real and what isn't around all this stuff.




> Until that timeline, work your ass off to make it better, but allow yourself to recognize if/when the effort is fruitless, and pull the plug.


First I have to work on getting myself where I want to be in life, I think. If it is even possible at this point, but what else am I gonna do?

I have much more to lose by pulling the plug than my wife does (before factoring in the impacts on our son), and that isn't a good position to be in, even when a couple is healthy.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> She does not like either you or herself


Hey, and I do not like either her or myself! Perhaps we're destined for each other at this point! hahaha...ugh. :|


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Try this one:

https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/

Or Google Lynne Forrest Three Faces Of Victim.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I think she is going about working to improve the marriage her own way, which is to work on herself first. I know she has been doing a lot of work on having compassion and giving up resentments. She is trying to open her heart to me again.
> 
> Will this work for you? Is it enough? It wouldn't be for me. If I asked my husband to work with me to improve our marriage and he told me to make myself happy and he would go about fixing issues his own way, I'd be disappointed, to say the least. I'd have some big decisions to make.
> 
> ...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> If I asked my husband to work with me to improve our marriage and he told me to make myself happy and he would go about fixing issues his own way, I'd be disappointed, to say the least.


I kinda feel the same way, but I feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle on this one.

I've seen so many posts even on this very forum where people talk about how people have to find their own happiness and bring that into the marriage instead of looking to marriage/their spouse to make them happy. I feel like I'm the crazy dysfunctional one for wanting a marriage that makes me happy...



> It's for your marriage.


This is an interesting approach, though I feel like if I say 'it's for our marriage', it's likely to be seen as disingenuous on my part, and me hiding behind 'marriage' as a justification for my own inability to take care of myself.

If my wife feels that our marriage is acceptable, given that we need to focus on providing for our son and building a future for him, it's on me to figure out how to make it about something other than me. My threatening to leave is probably counter-productive to that, as it would just highlight how selfish I actually am. I mean, the one thing it seems my wife respects about me right now is that I'm committed to our son not having to grow up in a broken home with reduced emotional/financial resources available to him. 



> She sounds like an intelligent woman, which is why her idea that she shouldn't have to work with you to meet the intimate needs in the marriage is baffling.


I think that she sees intimacy as a luxury, not a need. Most of her 'needs' seem to involve me not being so selfish and doing more for the family in life. She has a need to be in constant motion - always asking, 'what's next? what more can we do?' Very much a doer, not so much a feeler/thinker.

While she has always been very independent (even in her career, her greatest frustrations come from having to deal with other people), I think she may have decided a while back that I was not a reliable partner and she was going to have to go it alone if she wanted to get anything meaningful accomplished (an attitude that I've taken on as well).



> This will be helpful in many ways, not least of all in your next relationship if your wife continues to neglect the marriage.


Mostly, it is for me and my own personal integrity. I seriously doubt there is another relationship in my future if we part ways. That's definitely not a reason to split up for me.



> But financial support is likely a top need for her now that you have a child.


I just don't know what I can realistically do to meet that need.

When I took on the part-time job (while still maintaining full responsibility for the domestic stuff), I thought it might make a difference. While my wife insists that it did, I certainly didn't see any change in our relationship or marriage (arguably, it got even worse). I'm afraid that if I go full-time, but still make nowhere near what she makes, I'm just adding a whole lot more stress and overwhelm to my life without actually making much of a difference in our marriage. 

This morning I stayed home with our son because he was sick. I can do that because I don't have to go into my office until this afternoon today. What happens on days like today (which happen a couple times a month, it seems) when I have a full-time job? If I'm still not 'the breadwinner', it's going to land on me to make it work.

But it will give me a way to be more independent.



> And I also want to say that physical attractiveness could be a top need for you, which she sounds like she's willing to work on.


While physical attractiveness is great, and I'm not going to say no to any improvements, that was never the basis for our relationship. As much as I love it when my wife looks hot, I miss the other stuff even more...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> My pleasure!
> 
> What are the things she says that feel passive aggressive to you? Maybe we can break them down and figure out the underlying message.


I will try to think of specifics and get back to you. Thanks!


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I kinda feel the same way, but I feel like I'm fighting an uphill battle on this one.
> 
> Why is that? Why is she unwilling to work on the marriage when you're unhappy with it?
> 
> ...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Jessica38 said:


> I'm sorry. No wonder you're depressed. I guess you have 2 choices- either let her know you're unhappy and need her to work on the marriage with you or resign yourself to live like this indefinitely. It seems to me that you've chosen the second path, so in that case, yes, find activities that make you happy, but realize that you're not going to feel as fulfilled in this marriage as you deserve. And also realize that the risk of either one of you having an EA or PA is high, when you're not meeting each other's intimate needs in the marriage. The likelihood of a loveless, sexless marriage ending in divorce is high. You may not be willing to set a higher bar, but you may have no choice in the end but to separate if you allow this to continue. Your wife may decide she's not willing to live like this herself, if she hasn't already. To me, she seems to be checked out of the marriage and only staying for your son. If she meets or rekindles with someone and develops feelings, she will have a new point of comparison and it has a high chance of ending the marriage anyway.


Your answer to your entire thread is summed up in this lone paragraph.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> let her know you're unhappy and need her to work on the marriage with you


I guess this is what I haven't figured out how to accomplish powerfully, such that she actually sees an opportunity and not me being selfish and demanding.

As I was reflecting on this, I am reminded of one of the central contentions in our marriage right now.

She has stated one of her fundamental issues as follows:

_"Before we had a kid, you had all of my time and attention. If you were down or felt you needed something, I was right there to take care of you. I could spoil you, and I enjoyed spoiling you. But it was always all about you, you, you.

But then we had a kid, and I could no longer be all about you. Someone else needed the care and attention that used to be for you alone, and you went ballistic when you saw that it wasn't all about you anymore, that I could no longer spoil you and give you all my attention and energy (usually narcissism comes up at this point).

Well, guess what? It's not all about you anymore. Now our son needs me - he needs *us* - and you are going to have to learn how to share instead of thinking only about yourself. Time to grow up and think about others for a change..."_

When this came up in MC, our counselor looked at me and said, "Are you jealous of your son? You were able to 'share' your wife before (referring to our infrequent 'playing around' with other people), why are you having such trouble sharing her now?"

Which just ****ed my head up more. I love my son more than anything in this world. There is nothing I wouldn't do for his happiness and well-being. I would walk over broken glass for him every day if that's what it took to ensure his well-being.

I don't feel like I'm jealous of him (nor do I feel like 'sharing' my wife with him is even remotely similar to our occasional dalliances, which was a small part of our overall marriage). It pains me to even think that I might be being jealous of him. What kind of awful father is jealous of their own child? It's horrible, but maybe they are right? Am I really that ****ty of a person?

So how do I go about saying, "Hey, I need something here" without invoking that reaction and confirming (again, for the umpteenth time) for her that I am indeed a selfish, narcissistic a**hole trying to make everything about me again?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I guess this is what I haven't figured out how to accomplish powerfully, such that she actually sees an opportunity and not me being selfish and demanding.
> 
> As I was reflecting on this, I am reminded of one of the central contentions in our marriage right now.
> 
> ...


What your wife wrote to you reminds me of what I used to hear from moms in the breastfeeding groups I belonged to. The dads were used to a lot of attention from the moms before they had kids. Once the kids came along, the mom naturally focused her attention on the children. The dads who could not adjust usually had some issues.

I think this is an opportunity for maturity. I understand it may be hard to see it that way. But it really can make life a lot easier for all of you if you can do it.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I guess this is what I haven't figured out how to accomplish powerfully, such that she actually sees an opportunity and not me being selfish and demanding.
> 
> You need to get to a place where it doesn't matter if she agrees with you- you have standards for your marriage that do not include living the rest of your life as a roommate who is forced to give up a loving, caring, and mutually satisfying relationship with a partner.
> 
> ...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

> So how do I go about saying, "Hey, I need something here" without invoking that reaction and confirming (again, for the umpteenth time) for her that I am indeed a selfish, narcissistic a**hole trying to make everything about me again?


 @Dazedconfuzed, 

There is a difference between "Give all your attention to ME!!!!", sharing your wife with other men, and being a mature father and husband while simultaneously wanting some of your emotional needs met in your relationship. This isn't a black and white thing ("give me all attention" or "give me no attention"). Nor is it a jealousy thing ("keep my wife for myself" or "share my wife with other men"). Rather than all or nothing/black or white, it's more like this: *I am capable of being a single parent. I have the ability to provide financially if I had to, and I have the ability to be a good parent all by myself if I had to. But I CHOOSE to be in a relationship with another human being. Therefore, since being in the relationship is a choice--not a requirement--that means that both of us should get something out of being in the relationship together. For example, I am relating to you because I'm WILLING to meet your emotional needs, and I would like you to relate to me because you are WILLING to meet my emotional needs.*

Yes, marriage is a commitment, and part of the commitment is to provide a stable home for offspring. Yep! But marriage is also a daily choice. You may not like to hear it and it sounds like she doesn't want to hear it, but the fact is that either one of you could choose to say "Screw it" and walk away at any time. I'm not saying that's a wise thing--just that people DO choose it! So part of the commitment of marriage is that you take the responsibility to give your partner a reason to stay every day. You learn what your partner needs and give that to them IN THEIR WAY as best as you can every day. 

As an example, there was a husband who deeply loved his wife, and he thought, "I know! I'll show my love by cleaning her car every day, and making sure the oil is topped off and she always has gas in the tank, so that she is never stranded or has to worry about the dependability of transportation--she is always safe!" and he tinkers away in the garage thinking how great he is showing his wife all this love. Meanwhile, she sits in the house alone thinking, "Why doesn't he love me enough to stop fooling around with the car and come talk to me?" and for all his love, SHE isn't "receiving" it because he doesn't know what she needs, and he's giving it to her in HIS way--not HER way. 

In your case, let's say that your top four emotional needs are affection, sexual fulfillment, recreational companionship, and conversation--and her top four emotional needs are financial support, admiration, admiration, and conversation. And let's say your love language is physical touch and hers is words of affirmation. Well...if she needs to feel financially secure and you are missing the boat wildly on that one...and she needs to hear how much you admire her and you're trying to show your love in YOUR love language, then guess what? You aren't showing her love in any way that SHE can receive it!! 

So instead of going into this saying: "MEET MY NEEDS!!" "I NEED this or that from you!!!" (which sounds needy and self-focused) turn your marriage around and think of it the other way: "I want to learn what YOUR needs are and some day I want to be able to share mine. I want to learn your love language so I can show you what love I do have in a way that you can receive it and understand it." Now I'm not saying you're not already doing this--from what I can tell you do try and she does in her own way too!! But neither one of you are hitting your bullseye because you're not looking at each other. She will not likely look at your first. And if you have not been meeting emotional needs and have been self-focused in the past, then she's even likely to be resistant a bit! But you could lead her and show her that YOU are willing to demonstrate what you also do expect her to do in the relationship. 

Does that make sense? If you just do it for her and get nothing back, you'd be a doormat. But if you let her know that someone has to go first, and you are willing to go first with the understanding that she will JOIN YOU in learning about and caring about each other...then you both win. 

If she is unwilling to join you, and seems to understand that you'd be focusing on her but she just is unwilling to focus on you, THEN you have a problem, but you also have the problem 100% identified. That would be something you could bring to MC and say "Here's what we've identified--I'm willing and she's not" and honestly she can choose that but chances are about 99.99% that if she persists in her unwillingness then she will be the downfall of the family and the marriage. The point, though, is that it won't be YOU who caused the downfall but rather her unwillingness and stubborn refusal to do her part in building love.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Try this one:
> 
> https://www.lynneforrest.com/articles/2008/06/the-faces-of-victim/
> 
> Or Google Lynne Forrest Three Faces Of Victim.


Thank you for this. Great link. Quite sobering and, frankly, painful to read in places (which is always good - no pain, no gain, lol). Hits so close to home...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Thank you for this. Great link. Quite sobering and, frankly, painful to read in places (which is always good - no pain, no gain, lol). Hits so close to home...


Good. Now, there are three rules for understanding the drama triangle.

1. Make sure you see how you fill the roles in your interactions with people.

2. Don't use it to try to change other people (especially your wife), or you will have effectively seated yourself in the rescuer chair (common mistake).

3. Strive to find your way to the middle of the triangle, which is what we affectionately here on TAM call 50,000 feet (or 50K). 

Can you handle that?


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Affaircare said:


> But marriage is also a daily choice. You may not like to hear it and it sounds like she doesn't want to hear it, but the fact is that either one of you could choose to say "Screw it" and walk away at any time. I'm not saying that's a wise thing--just that people DO choose it!


Well, there is nothing like being in a marriage where nobody feels like they are getting their needs met to make you aware that you are choosing to be in your marriage, lol.

Kinda reminds me of what my boss says when people ask him the secret to a lifelong marriage (he's been married close to fifty years). His reply? "Don't get divorced." Some days, choosing to not get divorced really seems to be the reason my wife and I stay together. And that is a very conscious choice as well.

Your post really made me think. Thanks.

One thing I did was go back and review Harley's 'List of Needs' to look at them from my wife's point of view. Based on what seems to create the most frustration and resentment in her, I would say with some certainty that her top four needs are: Financial Support, Domestic Support, Family Commitment, and Admiration.

(I will, of course, find a way to confirm those with her, but based on what seems to be her primary pain points and what she asks for more than anything else, those definitely stand out)

And, admittedly, I fail on most of those. Which is why she is trying to come to terms with the fact that I'm not (maybe ever) going to be the man she would truly desire, but has committed herself to loving me anyway. 

It explains a couple of other things, too. 

It explains why my repeated stated commitment to keep our family together and to keep working in our family's best interest is the one thing she actually respects about me. That shows my ability to fulfill on her need of Family Commitment.

It explains why my getting a part-time job didn't seem to do as much as I had hoped to improve her attitude or our marriage - a part-time income, even a well-paying one, just isn't going to contribute much towards making her feel like I am supporting her financially.

It explains why she is probably not having an EA/PA. There just isn't that much in it for her at this point. If she found someone who she felt could rely on to meet those unmet needs, she would undoubtedly just drop me and move on. A simple EA/PA wouldn't really do much to meet the needs she so needs to have met.

The reckoning for me, though, is this - am I ever going to be able to really meet those needs? I honestly don't know, even if I have the best of intentions. That's a confronting thought.

Barring a miracle (or my becoming the next Walter White), I'm not sure if she is *ever* going to feel financially supported enough by me. Even best case scenario, any full-time job I get is likely to still be significantly beneath her job when it comes to providing financial security, so she's still going to feel like she is the only reliable source of income in the marriage.

Likewise, I'm just not much of a 'domestic god.' She would really like to have someone who takes on our domestic life with enthusiasm and creativity, rather than just doing the basic, routine 'maintenance' work. She has an ideas list a mile-long of things she would like to see done on the domestic front, ideas that she is excited about but wants me to get excited about as well. If she had the time and abilities, I have no doubt that she would effectively disappear for an indefinite amount of time, which she would spend doing and building things around our house/property, but I'm just not that much of a homebody. I try (and do - I have definitely finished more than a few big projects around the house over the years), but I don't get the same charge out of doing projects around the house, nor do they fill my mind the same way that they do for her, so I'm not nearly as effective at it as a true homebody would be.

She also has expressed, time and again, that she wishes I would just love her for what she does every day to provide for our family and accomplish her goals in life. And I do *appreciate* - deeply - the contributions she makes to our family, but I have to admit they don't really 'turn me on', so she feels like she still has to do *more* to get that need for admiration met, and it exasperates and exhausts her. 

The upshot here, I guess, is that I'm going to have to read His Needs Her Needs and see if I can find ways to better meet those needs for her. Maybe the solution is waiting for me in those pages, lol. 

One thought I have is this - maybe the '15 hours one-on-one time a week' thing isn't inspiring for her because she doesn't see anything for herself in spending time like that. Will 15 hours a week together provide financial security, or transform our home into the kind of place she can feel happy with and fulfilled by? Does it contribute to our son's upbringing (Family Commitment)? Is she likely to get any further admiration for her hard work out of it? 

Perhaps I am the one who needs to look at spending that 15 hours a week on things that may meet her needs. That might provide the inspiration she needs to get interested in 'us' (and my needs) again...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I definitely think it would be wise for you to focus on her unmet needs, Dazed.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Well, there is nothing like being in a marriage where nobody feels like they are getting their needs met to make you aware that you are choosing to be in your marriage, lol.
> 
> Kinda reminds me of what my boss says when people ask him the secret to a lifelong marriage (he's been married close to fifty years). His reply? "Don't get divorced." Some days, choosing to not get divorced really seems to be the reason my wife and I stay together.




You have a good sense of humor, Dazed. Does your wife get to see this often enough?

What you need to do is build up "soft" power in your marriage. Your sense of humor, your nurturing her, your emotional support of her are the way to remind her why she married you, and stays married to you. Use them to build the emotional connection.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

It's sounds like your wife is interested in a certain type of "life structure" and not so much in a particular person (you) to share her life with or in the actual relationship itself/with YOU. 

Her way isn't the only right way. I get the impression from your posts that deep inside you view her way of looking at life together as the right way and that your way and what you need from a relationship is wrong, bad, or not as good, and that you need to change.

I was married for 16 years to a man who was interested in a certain type of "life structure" but not really in ME as a person, as his love, as his wife. Something tragic happened to my heart. My odds were worse than most cancers. I wasn't his love... he wasn't there for me in even the most basic emotional way while I was waiting to find out if I was going to live or die. I ended up divorcing him, because it showed me he wasn't really my husband, my love, my partner. And that really is what broke my heart. 

Life structure doesn't compare to sharing love together. Almost die, and you are hit in the soul with what really matters. Hint: it's not how much money you make or projects around the house.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

jld said:


> I definitely think it would be wise for you to focus on her unmet needs, Dazed.


I don't? think anything is going to change her. Some people just aren't built to truly love. This makes it sound like her emotional vacancy is due to something he's not doing. That isn't necessarily true.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Well, there is nothing like being in a marriage where nobody feels like they are getting their needs met to make you aware that you are choosing to be in your marriage, lol.
> 
> Ha! Good point.
> 
> ...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@Dazedconfuzed, 

You say that you think her top four emotional needs are Financial Support, Domestic Support, Family Commitment, and Admiration. Let me translate this for you: part of her heart may "wish" she had a husband who earned 6 figures so her career was icing on the cake and "the family" could live a lifestyle that's a little more wealthy. Now, my own Dear Hubby does not have a degree nor significant job experience so that I am the primary earner in our family, and I have to tell you--I would PAY MONEY to be able to be a stay at home mom and clean the house for a living! With my exH, he owned his own business and my job was staying home with the kids AND 30 hours a week I did bookkeeping and documentation and training for our business. I "contributed" but the weight of providing was not dropped on me. I can't say if all women feel this way, but the weight of providing for a whole family and a whole way of life is HEAVY. 

Now, since I do have significant training and business experience, I honestly make more. And I voluntarily am willing to take that on with the understanding that one of my HUGE needs then is admiration. If I carry this load, that I voluntarily choose to take on, please admire me for it. Make sense? Something tells me your wife doesn't feel like she is doing this voluntarily (which builds some resentment), and if she DOES do this huge thing for the family, she might be willing if she was frequently and regularly admired for it! 

Her definition of admiration may be different than mine, but my guess is that it is not false flattery or empty compliments. To me, admiration is when I walk into a room and my Dear Hubby does that smile that means "I am so happy to see you!" But also, when I tell him about my day, he'll say things like "That must have been so hard! I am so proud of you for handling that so well." See what I mean? I don't want him to make up some fake comment about looking pretty or whatever--I want him to look at me with hunger and to think highly of me because I'm taking care of him and the whole house every day all by myself! I face the business politics and sucking it up and all that company weirdness so he can focus elsewhere, and when he expresses recognition of what I'm doing, and respect for doing it--well then guess what? That DOES meet the need for admiration. 

So @Dazedconfuzed if you don't meet one need very well, then look at the others and meet them WELL!! If you're not a financial support guy, you may want to look into how you can become more financially supportive. Do you need to go to school or get training for a better career? Does she maybe just need you to not take over but provide more? 

For Domestic Support, I get it--you do basic maintenance. And often for the person who is "at work" it seems like "You were home for 8 hours and didn't even get the laundry done--what did you do all day?" when in real life your day was picking up spills, chasing after your son, cleaning a burn, putting out a fire...picking up your son from school, dealing with a school "emergency", homework, dinner, etc. Being the stay at home parent is like pissing out fires all day long!! But if that is one of her emotional needs, maybe you could show some enthusiasm for ONE of her projects or proposals. Let's say one of her ideas was to set up a schedule for cleaning, and inside your head you were like: "But if I do that, she'll get mad at me for not doing the cleaning assignment for the day and I'll feel all controlled...." But since domestic support is a need of hers, what if you just looked up on the internet "cleaning schedules" or like me I use FlyLady.net She's funny and makes it seem like fun! The point is to not let yourself be stopped due to a fear that hasn't occurred yet, but rather to do a U Turn in your thinking and consider how you could take one of her suggestions and embrace it as your own--something you WOULD be willing to do. Make sense?

For Family Commitment, read a little more about it and this time YOU TELL ME some things she's talked to you about or asked you to do relating to parenting, and then tell me ways you might research or find out more and then pick one way you can embrace it and make it your own.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Livvie said:


> I don't? think anything is going to change her. Some people just aren't built to truly love. This makes it sound like her emotional vacancy is due to something he's not doing. That isn't necessarily true.


I think his best bet is to build up his influence in the marriage. Nurturing her, among other things, could do that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazed, I think we talked about this already, but the new model of marriage in a female economically dominant world is for a man to be emotionally nurturing of his wife. That is your source of influence. Embrace it.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I appreciate your perspective, and it does give me some ideas that I need to consider.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Don't get "personal" about it. 
Meaning..,

It's a boundary to the relationship to participate in activities that would erode trust, in the relationship.
You may never do anything inappropriate with your ex FWB, but it might be damaging to trust in the relationship to put yourself in situations.
Sexting doesn't benefit trust in a relationship. So why do it? 
If it doesn't benefit or strengthen, it's no go territory. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

crocus said:


> Don't get "personal" about it


Yeah, that was probably what weakened me when I first expressed how upset I was by the sexting last summer. It was all about my feelings of being hurt and neglected and unattractive. Yech...

When it happened again, I wert straight into anger, crossed boundaries, and broken trust, as well as deep concern over her subsequent reaction to the confrontation. Despite being quite hurt, disappointed, and confused, I definitely felt I was taking it less personally.

While I didn't handle it as well as I would have liked (still too emotionally volatile), it was definitely more powerful and productive.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Op,
The concept of needs and emotional well being is like an onion. Layers all wrapped up together.
Perhaps out of context here, but it is possible to separate emotions and thoughts from actions.
Reviewing needs:
Spend time writing all of yours down.
Analyze them.
Some you might be projecting to others and it feels "wrong" simply because it is. Some feelings you are meant to provide for yourself and not rely on others.
Some are more concrete.
Yes or No if met or not. 
Measurable. Actions.
Better to focus on those kind when expecting others to meet them.
If not an action (yes or no) like "call me if you are going to be late", then you are giving AWAY your power to feel good about who you are.
It's never a good plan to allow another to be responsible for your feelings. That's where the lack of attraction comes in, for a woman. 
It's awesome to have emotional needs. Means you have a heart.
You feel bad because they aren't being met. No one person is meant to meet them.
You are meant to fill some of them yourself. And by relying completely on one person, you are missing the opportunity to experience other versions.
Don't give up your needs.
Just spend some time evaluating them and most important....write down what it looks like to YOU when they are met. Not how you feel, but specific actions.
Don't share it with your wife.



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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Good. Now, there are three rules for understanding the drama triangle.
> 
> 1. Make sure you see how you fill the roles in your interactions with people.
> 
> ...


Yep. At least, I am committed to handling that, lol.

What I'm reading there isn't new to me, by any means, but it is focused and clear. I would argue that my wrestling with the issues brought up in the article are what prompted me to write my OP (as initially muddled and weak as it may have been).

I can see that, when my life and our marriage cratered, I fell into the victim role in a big way. Instead of rising to the challenges on my own in a strong, powerful, independent way, I collapsed in on myself and started flailing around for a life preserver, for someone to help 'rescue' me from my troubles. 

Now, to be clear, that isn't some new realization - I recognize my failures on that front, and I'm not at all happy with or proud of how I dealt with my difficulties. It was a lot to deal with all at once, of course, but failure is failure, and I've lived in the shadow of that failure (and it's consequences) ever since. So the question is not what I should have done (which is easy to answer), but what I can do now to be the strong, powerful, independent person I needed to be then.

I remember coming to the realization a while ago that I was truly on my own, that there would be no one coming to ‘save’ me this time to help pick me up and feel better about myself and my life. That my hoping for a ‘life preserver’ was unfair to the people in my life, and had done nothing but further alienate everyone in my life (that was when I said to myself, “I think I better go find a therapist who may be able to actually help me, pronto, before I do any more damage in my personal life”, lol).

It was at that moment that I stopped resenting my wife. I realized that she honestly felt like she had given me everything she could give, and that she was done ‘rescuing’ me. It was me who was the problem, not my wife.

And I think she feels now like she played the ‘rescuer' role for me since the beginning of our relationship (whereas I just thought she was being an awesome wife, lol), and she is no longer willing to do that. She has realized that her being my ‘rescuer’ when I would get down resulted in her losing sight of herself and her needs, and was further enabling my emotional dependency instead of forcing me to learn to stand on my own in life. 

So, yeah, I can continue to forgive her for not ‘rescuing’ me, and I can take on being ongoingly responsible for the ways that I am being a victim in my life. My fight is no one’s but my own..

And I definitely know better than to use these kinds of tools to change others. If I’m focusing on others and what they should/shouldn’t be doing, I am not only going to affect zero change, but I’m taking the focus off of the one thing I can change.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by ‘the middle of the triangle’? The article mentioned ‘exiting the triangle’ – is that related? I admit, I need to read that article several times to make sure I am getting and understanding everything, but I’m curious what others take away from it as well.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> Question: Have you ever admitted that to her? Just said it straight out, just that directly? What was her response?


Was re-reading the thread, and noticed I think I missed this question.

Can you clarify your question? What is it you are interested to know if I have admitted to her? If I can get clarity, perhaps I will and I'll report back.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

I also noticed this



jld said:


> How about reflecting this back to her?
> 
> _"Wife, you feel I may not be spending my time as profitably as possible by spending time on TAM. You feel it might be wiser to spend it doing x,y,z? If I did those things instead, it might make you feel a,b,c? Is that correct? If not, please help me understand."_


Interestingly enough, I have never asked how my spending time on the things she would prefer that I spend my time on would make her feel.

That's may be a productive conversation to have. She usually says, "It would be so awesome if you did x,y,z..." but never talks about how she would feel (except 'awesome', I guess). And she often refers to how she thinks my doing x,y,z might help me feel happier and better about myself. But rarely discloses it's potential affect on her.

She does say things like, "It would be so *hot* if you (got a high-powered job, remodeled the house or landscaping, built a treehouse/playground for our son, otherwise achieve something big and impressive)."

I think she ultimately wants a husband who can impress her, whom she can look up to, respect, and admire, of whom she can feel proud, whom she can brag about to her family/friends, who is respected in the community, etc. As with many/most women, she is turned on most by what men do/accomplish in life (especially if she gets to directly benefit).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

jld said:


> Just read your response to Jessica. You show a lot of self-awareness in your post, Dazed. You are someone who can be worked with with, and your wife realizes that. That is surely why she continues to try in the marriage.
> 
> *Do you remember the other day when you made the comment that she would see something as "just another way she has to accommodate my sensitive ass"? That shows self-awareness right there, and a lack of "right-fighting." You do not try to defend yourself; you know your sensitivity is likely to be a pain to her.*
> 
> Question: Have you ever admitted that to her? Just said it straight out, just that directly? What was her response?


The bolded was what I was wondering about. When people own their fragilities, it can make it seem less of a pain to accommodate them.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I also noticed this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is probably a biological basis in that, considering how common it is. We women looked to men for a long, long time (millennia) for our survival, after all.

My sister was just telling me a few minutes ago how lucky I am to be married to Dug, and how lucky our extended family is that he is in it. That just sprung out of her heart. How would that not make me feel good about my decision to mate with him?


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> The bolded was what I was wondering about. When people own their fragilities, it can make it seem less of a pain to accommodate them.


Have I admitted that I feel like she has to accommodate my 'sensitive ass'? Or admitted that I need her to accommodate my 'sensitive ass'? 

I don't know that I've really admitted or owned either of those things. I guess I'm tired of being fragile (where I'm not as strong or impervious as I would like to be), and I know that my wife is *definitely* tired of me being fragile, so I don't really bring it up at this point unless I can also bring up my plan to achieve *not* being fragile going forward.

It's kind of like how you can only say "I'm sorry" so many times before it just becomes pathetic (and infuriating). 

I guess I can share a commitment to not being fragile, and then follow through on that commitment to the best of my abilities.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> There is probably a biological basis in that, considering how common it is. We women looked to men for a long, long time (millennia) for our survival, after all.


I definitely think it has it's roots in biology. That's why, as much as it can be inconvenient for me, I don't begrudge my wife (or women in general) their desires. She can no more control her attraction than I can. She wants what she wants (and, honestly, she wants what most women want, too, so it's not personal).

Don't hate the player, hate the game. Or whatever, lol.



> My sister was just telling me a few minutes ago how lucky I am to be married to Dug, and how lucky our extended family is that he is in it. That just sprung out of her heart. How would that not make me feel good about my decision to mate with him?


That's an awesome feeling, I know.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Dazed, I think we talked about this already, but the new model of marriage in a female economically dominant world is for a man to be emotionally nurturing of his wife. That is your source of influence. Embrace it.


Is she emotionally receptive to such nurturing?

Not a lot of "financially dominant" people (gender neutral) are.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Have I admitted that I feel like she has to accommodate my 'sensitive ass'? Or admitted that I need her to accommodate my 'sensitive ass'?
> 
> I don't know that I've really admitted or owned either of those things. I guess I'm tired of being fragile (where I'm not as strong or impervious as I would like to be), and I know that my wife is *definitely* tired of me being fragile, so I don't really bring it up at this point unless I can also bring up my plan to achieve *not* being fragile going forward.
> 
> ...


When I read that phrase in your post, "accommodate my sensitive ass," I thought, Wow, that is some self-awareness he has. 

Self-awareness is painful for all of us, Dazed. But when we can own it, and admit it to our partners, they usually appreciate it. That kind of vulnerability can start communication and build connection.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I definitely think it has it's roots in biology. That's why, as much as it can be inconvenient for me, I don't begrudge my wife (or women in general) their desires. She can no more control her attraction than I can. She wants what she wants (and, honestly, she wants what most women want, too, so it's not personal).
> 
> Don't hate the player, hate the game. Or whatever, lol.
> 
> ...


But you know that you bring a lot to the game, too, right? You are the father of her child. You love her and him. You two have a history together. You certainly have value, Dazed.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Is she emotionally receptive to such nurturing?
> 
> Not a lot of "financially dominant" people (gender neutral) are.


I think so. He calmed her down about some worries she had last week. She really appreciated it. And when he spontaneously hugged her, she appreciated that, too.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> I think so. He calmed her down about some worries she had last week. She really appreciated it. And when he spontaneously hugged her, she appreciated that, too.


Whether it's what she ideally wants from me or not (most women long for the 'caring badass'), it's all I've got right now. My 'badass' seems to be broken at the moment, so I might as well bring the 'caring'. Again, for my own sense of integrity if for no other reason.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Whether it's what she ideally wants from me or not (most women long for the 'caring badass'), it's all I've got right now. My 'badass' seems to be broken at the moment, so I might as well bring the 'caring'. Again, for my own sense of integrity if for no other reason.


Please do not devalue what you bring, Dazed. It has a lot of value.

My husband is not naturally very communicate or affectionate. If he gave me a hug spontaneously, it would definitely be a deposit in my emotional bank account.

I think you overrate this "badass" business. Your wife has matured since her 20s and surely appreciates a caring man very much.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

The center and exiting are essentially the same thing. Recognizing when someone hits the chairs, and you staying cool, firm, and dispassionate in the midst of their musical chairs is the key.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Why is she unwilling to work on the marriage when you're unhappy with it?


I'm not her, but I would hazard a couple guesses:

- because *I'm* the one with the problem. I am the one whose unhappiness is causing all the problems (though I don't really think she is all that happy, either), and she can't make me be happy. I'm responsible for my own happiness. That's why she is doing a lot of work on her end in an attempt be responsible for her own happiness.

- because she is doing her best to deal with her own upsets and unhappiness while simultaneously needing to give most of her emotional energy to our son. She probably doesn't feel like she should also have to take care of me (emotionally, at least), even if she had the energy to do so. She wants an emotionally strong, independent man who can do the same as she is doing. I'm sure that's why she has said that she feels like she has *two* needy children...



> But that's not going to get your top 4 emotional needs met and they are necessary in marriage to maintain feelings of love for our spouse.


I don't know that she prioritizes or even expects to feel 'in love.' 

She often talks about life in terms of 'phases.' I think for her, things like being in love and prioritizing sex and all that stuff is for younger, less responsible couples. Hence the remarks like 'What are you, some kind of horny teenager?'

I don't think she is *against* it, but she looks at all that 'romantic' stuff as a nice-to-have. She once asked me, "Why can't you relate to sex like getting to go out to a nice restaurant? Just focus on enjoying it when it happens rather than focusing on how you wish you could get out more..."


As I have said, she has always had an ambivalent attitude (to be clear, not apathetic, but ambivalent) about intimacy. I think it often goes against her strong and pragmatic nature.



> You can take care of yourself, right?


My inability to take care of myself emotionally. 

I do fine materially (well, except for having killed off my career by becoming a SAHD). Around the house, I'm the one generally taking care of *her* (materially speaking).



> You don't threaten to leave. You set a boundary that you're no longer willing to live like roommates...unless you are?


Well, there has to be consequences for crossing boundaries. I would assume the 'or else' of 'This needs to change or else...' implies leaving.



> Most would say it's necessary to have a happy marriage and life. So continuing to claim that she doesn't need to work on the marriage when her husband is unhappy leads me to believe that she's not showing care or regard for the marriage.


Or she thinks her husband is being way too high-maintenance about his marriage. 

Would she like the marriage to be better? Yes. She has even said so at various times. But she feels like she's doing everything she can to make the best of it right now, and needs me to do the same.



> She doesn't need you, nor does she want to need you.


I'm pretty sure she doesn't want to *need* anybody (and I honestly don't know if she *needs* anybody, either). Again, she prides herself on being strong and independent.



> You're roommates who co-parent.


That's how I feel, at least.

I feel like her attitude is often, "Can we just have faith that we love each other and focus on making life work right now?"



> She's decided to not rely on or need you other than to be a caregiver to your shared child.


She would like to be able to rely on me to help her accomplish building a good life and a good future for our family.



> To me, she seems to be checked out of the marriage and only staying for your son


She insists she's not. 

She has said from the beginning, "It won't be like this forever - let's just focus on what needs to be done now and get through this..."



> If she meets or rekindles with someone and develops feelings, she will have a new point of comparison and it has a high chance of ending the marriage anyway.


While that can of course be true, I feel like the more pressing point of comparison is 'can I do better just on my own?'

While anything is possible, I think she'd much rather go her own way rather than thinking she needs to find someone new. Her just deciding she's had enough and would do better going it alone is my bigger concern.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

That you accept those answers without challenge is almost as problematic as her giving them.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> That you accept those answers without challenge is almost as problematic as her giving them.


I agree. She wants a person to build a structural life with. She wants no part of a being a wife or lover, beyond just the life structure. And she's got you brainwashed that wanting more than that is a negative thing and your problem/shortcoming to deal with.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Anytime a woman considers a man "high maintenance", watch out. That is unlikely to increase her attraction to you, especially after she has children, who truly are high maintenance (and rightfully so).

You are really smart to try to get a handle on yourself, Dazed.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Livvie said:


> I agree. She wants a person to build a structural life with. She wants no part of a being a wife or lover, beyond just the life structure. And she's got you brainwashed that wanting more than that is a negative thing and your problem/shortcoming to deal with.


Her priority (right or wrong) is being with, taking care of, and providing for our son. Pretty much everything she does from the time she wakes up until the time she goes to bed is to that end. She wishes her husband was more understanding and supportive of that priority.

And I gotta say - it's hard for me to argue with that. Telling my wife that she needs to do less for our son and more for me just feels...selfish and wrong. How can I do that to my son? I love him more than anything in this world. What kind of awful, narcissistic father would I be?


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Okay so this isn't always popular..,
But since she has these opinions and views, you challenge her. 
If it's wrong, what is right? 
You logically cannot say it's wrong unless you have a " right " to compare it to.
Hold her to it.
Make her own her own excuse or tell the truth.
There are nice ways to do it, but basically demand she tell you exactly what her expectations of you are. Specific actions. What she thinks you should do or say.
Then hold her to it.



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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

crocus said:


> Okay so this isn't always popular..,
> But since she has these opinions and views, you challenge her.
> If it's wrong, what is right?
> You logically cannot say it's wrong unless you have a " right " to compare it to.
> ...


I agree with this. Dazed, your whole post is about her and what she thinks the marriage should be, which most of us are telling you isn't a marriage at all. You're letting her call all the shots in your relationship. This alone is unattractive.

And by setting the boundary of "I'm no longer willing to live like roommates," the consequence could simply be that you are unwilling to let this go and adapt to her status quo, however much she belittles and pressures you to do so.

And using your son as an excuse to live in a sexless, loveless marriage is absurd. A strong marriage is one of the best things parents can give their children- it provides a stable, loving home and an example from which they can learn how to be in a healthy relationship. 

My husband is VERY supportive of my desire to be a great mom. More so than any other father I've ever met. But he would never agree to live in a sexless, loveless marriage for the sake of his children, whom he adores. And rightfully so.

What you describe is not a marriage. It's a roommate situation of convenience. Keep making it an issue so it becomes her issue too. You are not unreasonable or crazy or needy or selfish or a child for wanting a healthy marriage. Your wife sounds like a bully, TBH.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Her priority (right or wrong) is being with, taking care of, and providing for our son. Pretty much everything she does from the time she wakes up until the time she goes to bed is to that end. She wishes her husband was more understanding and supportive of that priority.
> 
> And I gotta say - it's hard for me to argue with that. Telling my wife that she needs to do less for our son and more for me just feels...selfish and wrong. How can I do that to my son? I love him more than anything in this world. What kind of awful, narcissistic father would I be?


I agree.

Be supportive of her. Accept her influence. That can build the emotional connection with her. 

Have you read Gottman?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Her priority (right or wrong) is being with, taking care of, and providing for our son. Pretty much everything she does from the time she wakes up until the time she goes to bed is to that end. She wishes her husband was more understanding and supportive of that priority.
> 
> And I gotta say - it's hard for me to argue with that. Telling my wife that she needs to do less for our son and more for me just feels...selfish and wrong. How can I do that to my son? I love him more than anything in this world. What kind of awful, narcissistic father would I be?


No, it isn't. 

It is her priority until she goes to work. Then her work is her priority.

When she comes home, being a mother takes priority again.

So...She is capable of committing energy and effort into both being a mother and a career woman.

Yet that suddenly ends for her husband? She is not committing energy to you because she cant...but rather because she won't. 

I normally say that one spouse who continues to neglect the other will one day find they have no need worry because they will eventually wake up alone. In your case, I don't think your wife has anything to worry about. Your actions tell her it is okay, and you are making excuses for her.

I really am out of things to say to you at this point. If the current situation is acceptable, accept it. If it isn't, instigate change. But don't complain that the situation is not okay, and then in the same breath say why what she is doing is okay. Yes, fix yourself. However, part of fixing yourself is also understanding what will and will not accept.

That's all I have. I wish you the best of luck.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

john117 said:


> Is she emotionally receptive to such nurturing?
> 
> Not a lot of "financially dominant" people (gender neutral) are.




My mileage the past 20 years is I get paid to be "tough", not take things personally, forge ahead to the goal regardless. I definitely don't want to be that way when I get home! I want to be a woman. Maybe more so, because I can't "be" that way at work.
Maybe some women lose it altogether though.
But I know in my 1st marriage I discovered I wasn't comfortable being the higher income partner either. So it's probably more mine than a stat 


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Hi Dazed,
you know there's an old saying that bravery is not to be afraid but it's to do the right thing when you are afraid. The goal isn't that you don't need other people in your life; instead the goal should be that you're not willing to compromise your principles and self in order to have them there. I promise you that when you defend your own beliefs and your self that others start wanting to be someone else you defend. You become the person people want to share their lives with because they know you'll have their back. That's because you prove it by having your own back.

But I agree with you wholeheartedly that being alone sucks and being lonely sucks. The problem with compromising is you'll end up with the one thing worse than being afraid and lonely which is being afraid and lonely lying next to someone.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> It is her priority until she goes to work. Then her work is her priority.


She would say that she needs to make work her priority since that is how we ensure that our son gets what he needs, since she is (and likely will be from here on out) the primary breadwinner. Even if that isn't true (or entirely true), I can't really present a persuasive alternative. I would have to pull off a miracle career comeback to persuade her that financial concerns aren't a valid reason anymore...



> Yet that suddenly ends for her husband? She is not committing energy to you because she cant...but rather because she won't.


Maybe it's because she won't - I have no idea. But she would say that she is just exhausted (emotionally and otherwise) from those two endeavors (neither of which she feels entirely successful at or free around as it is). I don't know what to say in response. Work less? Spend less on our financial well-being, or on our son, and spend more on me? What approach could I take that doesn't further reinforce the idea that I'm the one with the problem, and leave me potentially looking like a petty, selfish, emotionally dependent, potentially narcissistic drag on my family?



> I really am out of things to say to you at this point. If the current situation is acceptable, accept it. If it isn't, instigate change.


I understand - there isn't much else to say, honestly. I'm just in the process of sorting out what I should be accepting and what I shouldn't such that I should be finding ways to instigate change (which hasn't always been easy up to this point - it's one thing to say, "I want this to change" and another to know how to actually achieve the kind of results that I want). 



> But don't complain that the situation is not okay


Well, and this is the crux. Either way, the first thing I've got to stop doing is complaining. It does no one any good, and is compromising my own personal integrity.

If I have a complaint and haven't yet determined how to address that complaint, I need to accept it until such time that I engage in a productive course of action. I can be accepting while simultaneously looking for ways to take action to facilitate change - complaining (and the resulting resentments and anger complaints foster) is a waste of everyone's time and energy.



> and then in the same breath say why what she is doing is okay.


I don't know that understanding her viewpoint and her justifications is the same as approving of them. I just get that, for her at least, they seem to be real and valid (and she can bring in lots of examples to support her case, such as the ubiquitous 'everyone is responsible for their own happiness and should not look to others to make them happy'). And maybe they are. I certainly don't have an objective viewpoint, or a solid understanding of what *is* real or valid. 

I can assert (and have at times), "This is what marriage should be like", but my just asserting that isn't much of a case. I could also assert, for example, that I should have a harem of nubile twenty-somethings at my beck and call, but no one would take that concern seriously, either. 

That's why something like the sexting incident, while painful and difficult, was also relatively easy to deal with and resolve at the same time. I felt I was in the rare position of standing on solid ground in holding her accountable for what happened, such that there were few excuses/justifications/arguments/whatever to undermine the clarity of the situation (it also helped that we weren't dealing entirely with 'feelings' - it was an issue that took a much more concrete form). 

Rarely, though, do problems present themselves with such clarity. A clarity that also allows for powerful action, incidentally.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> She would say that she needs to make work her priority since that is how we ensure that our son gets what he needs, since she is (and likely will be from here on out) the primary breadwinner. Even if that isn't true (or entirely true), I can't really present a persuasive alternative. I would have to pull off a miracle career comeback to persuade her that financial concerns aren't a valid reason anymore...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow. What you just described is very relatable to me.
All I can share is how I "feel" when these discussions have occurred. With reference to understanding versus agrees with her view of what is acceptable.
I will try to phrase something about that dynamic...
If I say "I don't like what you are doing"
It is the male response to run the action through the opinion mill and decide it's okay.
(It's very common, no worries)

What should have been said was...
"I don't like what you are doing because I feel HURT when you do it"

The unintended consequence is her feelings were dismissed, and you told her "I am not responsible for you feeling bad".

Saying "I understand " actually makes it worse. Like...you are well aware of her feelings and you don't care. All that matters is your opinion.

The mere hypocrisy that evolves is hard to bear.

What might work better?
When you have differing opinions on how a relationship should look, ask how she feels about her views. 
She's being run by her feelings. Needing to feel heard , wanted, etc. That is the purpose of the sexting. You aren't providing that to her, so she is getting it met somewhere else. 
(Horrible)
It's s a good bet she did ask you for those things, but in your opinion it wasn't necessary. Think about that.

You probably have a good idea of how much it hurts when this happens as you are on the receiving end.

It's still not acceptable to sext. But unless she hears you say "I can provide that for you" she isn't going to give it up. No matter what your opinion is about it. And she's right to think that. Because YOU don't get to decide what she needs to feel loved.

All great. Except at this point it's gone too far. A truce, treaty, call off the war, and make a declaration to try and learn what each other's needs are. Specific. Actions that can be measured, in black and white, without opinions. Then honestly decide if either one of you can even honour them.
It's not weak to do this. It's owning your part in it. So if necessary, you know you tried.

The bad part? Your needs aren't going to met in this process. You won't die. You will learn about yourself and maybe even your needs will change. 
Good luck.



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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Thanks for sharing your views. They are definitely a useful 'reality check' for me. 



Affaircare said:


> @Dazedconfuzed,
> 
> You say that you think her top four emotional needs are Financial Support, Domestic Support, Family Commitment, and Admiration. Let me translate this for you: part of her heart may "wish" she had a husband who earned 6 figures so her career was icing on the cake and "the family" could live a lifestyle that's a little more wealthy. Now, my own Dear Hubby does not have a degree nor significant job experience so that I am the primary earner in our family, and I have to tell you--I would PAY MONEY to be able to be a stay at home mom and clean the house for a living! With my exH, he owned his own business and my job was staying home with the kids AND 30 hours a week I did bookkeeping and documentation and training for our business. I "contributed" but the weight of providing was not dropped on me. I can't say if all women feel this way, but the weight of providing for a whole family and a whole way of life is HEAVY.
> 
> Now, since I do have significant training and business experience, I honestly make more. And I voluntarily am willing to take that on with the understanding that one of my HUGE needs then is admiration. If I carry this load, that I voluntarily choose to take on, please admire me for it. Make sense? Something tells me your wife doesn't feel like she is doing this voluntarily (which builds some resentment), and if she DOES do this huge thing for the family, she might be willing if she was frequently and regularly admired for it!


While I don't think she would ever be able to stop being a driven career woman (as much as she might find the idea of being a SAHM appealing), it does weigh heavily on her.

The whole 'mother' vs 'career woman' thing has been very hard on her. She naturally has a lot of ambition and drive, and was brought up to work her a$$ off and to be financially independent. That 'workaholism' hasn't really gone away, but now she feels constantly torn between two very base-level drives.

I first met her when she was 16. Still in high school (of course), she would come into the newspaper office where I worked after school (or after blowing off school to go snowboarding, lol) and work until late night doing production work. She loved working almost full-time while also managing school and fun. It started early for her, lol, and she has always seen herself as a force of nature (she was voted 'most likely to rule the universe, or at least her own universe' in high school, lol) who can achieve having it all. She has had a 'success mentality' since childhood. I think her inability to feel like she can find a way to successfully 'have it all' now is very troubling and painful for her. She doesn't do well with failure, in herself or in others.



> Her definition of admiration may be different than mine, but my guess is that it is not false flattery or empty compliments. To me, admiration is when I walk into a room and my Dear Hubby does that smile that means "I am so happy to see you!" But also, when I tell him about my day, he'll say things like "That must have been so hard! I am so proud of you for handling that so well." See what I mean?


Yep, totally. This was a major failing on my part early on in our new situation.

Her work situation was really stressful and downright ridiculous for a few years. While she was pregnant, she actually had to file a sexual harassment claim against a coworker who became creepy as hell (looking back, I just wish I had sat out in the parking lot and waited for him after work one day to have a 'nice chat', but at the time I didn't want to make things worse). A couple years after that, she started working for a narcissistic female boss, and that made her crazy as well.

Meanwhile, I was home with an infant feeling completely isolated and alone and disconnected and unappreciated and ignored. So instead of greeting her with a smile and appreciation when she came home, we would just dump our stress on each other (not good), both wishing we could 'trade places' or something.

Eventually, we agreed that we had to manage our own stress and negativity such that it wouldn't get all over the other. While we did do a good job of keeping our negativity to ourselves, we also stopped supporting each other emotionally.

I am now in the process of going beyond just not dumping my stress and negativity on her and actually being proactive in showing support, caring, and appreciation. I'm way out of practice, and still dealing with my own resentments and hurts, but I'm committed to faking it until I make it. It might not be my A game yet, but it's better than removing myself altogether. 



> So @Dazedconfuzed if you don't meet one need very well, then look at the others and meet them WELL!! If you're not a financial support guy, you may want to look into how you can become more financially supportive. Do you need to go to school or get training for a better career? Does she maybe just need you to not take over but provide more?


I probably will need to go to school or get training. Which, of course, will cost money and time that I don't feel like I have, but I am just going to have to dig deep and find some reserves. I honestly have no idea where to even start, but I've got to figure it out.

My wife assures me that she will be able to pick up some of the slack, but given that she feels like she's doing everything she can right now, I'm not sure how she is going to accomplish that. But at this point, I've got to be able to let the domestic life go. I'm sure my son will survive the fallout for a couple years until I have my feet under me again.

Even if it never leads to my being a 'success' again in her eyes, I need to be able to financially provide for myself and my son regardless of how my marriage turns out.



> For Domestic Support, I get it--you do basic maintenance. And often for the person who is "at work" it seems like "You were home for 8 hours and didn't even get the laundry done--what did you do all day?" when in real life your day was picking up spills, chasing after your son, cleaning a burn, putting out a fire...picking up your son from school, dealing with a school "emergency", homework, dinner, etc. Being the stay at home parent is like pissing out fires all day long!! But if that is one of her emotional needs, maybe you could show some enthusiasm for ONE of her projects or proposals. Let's say one of her ideas was to set up a schedule for cleaning, and inside your head you were like: "But if I do that, she'll get mad at me for not doing the cleaning assignment for the day and I'll feel all controlled...." But since domestic support is a need of hers, what if you just looked up on the internet "cleaning schedules" or like me I use FlyLady.net She's funny and makes it seem like fun! The point is to not let yourself be stopped due to a fear that hasn't occurred yet, but rather to do a U Turn in your thinking and consider how you could take one of her suggestions and embrace it as your own--something you WOULD be willing to do. Make sense?


I think the big thing with Domestic Support is that she wants a 'manly-man' around the house. She wants to see me tackling projects, making house improvements, building things for our son, that sort of thing. Working with my hands (she does have a big thing for 'blue collar' guys). She would like to see me *building*, not just *maintaining*. 

As much as domestic work has become 'gender neutral' in recent years, I think she still looks at stuff like cooking, cleaning, laundry, paying bills, etc. as primarily 'women's work', so my doing those things to the sometimes exclusion of 'manly' stuff just makes me more 'feminine' and less attractive.



> For Family Commitment, read a little more about it and this time YOU TELL ME some things she's talked to you about or asked you to do relating to parenting, and then tell me ways you might research or find out more and then pick one way you can embrace it and make it your own.


Well, one example would be that she is always reading books about raising children, and would like me to spend more time on those books and less time reading about marriage. I do try to alternate my reading (I mean, I also need to know how to be a better parent), but when I am in a marriage that isn't working, it's been difficult to just ignore my marriage and focus on other things. But I'm going to need to do more of that if I ever want to be considered attractive again, either to her, or to anyone else.

Another would be taking more action for our son's future. She is always researching the best opportunities for our son (whether it is schools, summer camps, after-school activities, better neighborhoods, etc). If I got out ahead of her and came back with bigger, better ideas, that would go a long way towards showing her that I share her commitment to the family. So, to start with, I gotta get off places like TAM, lol...

I really am going to have to start living for me and be prepared for the impacts that will have on my family. I'm sure my wife will become even more resentful and contemptuous of me in the process if my actions lead to a less well-taken care of home, but the only way out is through.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> But you know that you bring a lot to the game, too, right? You are the father of her child. You love her and him. You two have a history together. You certainly have value, Dazed.


The thing about value, though, is just because *I* might think I have value doesn't mean I actually have value. That seems like an entitlement attitude more than anything else.

What value that I might have - that I love my family, that I have history with someone - is just enough to keep me from spending the rest of my life without a home and family. It's hardly sufficient for a healthy relationship/marriage.

If what I have to offer isn't seen as being of value (and believe me, it's not just my wife who doesn't see me as having value), why should anyone 'value' me?

Men are loved for what we do and accomplish in life. We have little inherent value (which is why women have always been protected at all costs while men are the one's sent off to do the dangerous/dirty work in life).


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> The thing about value, though, is just because *I* might think I have value doesn't mean I actually have value. That seems like an entitlement attitude more than anything else.
> 
> What value that I might have - that I love my family, that I have history with someone - is just enough to keep me from spending the rest of my life without a home and family. It's hardly sufficient for a healthy relationship/marriage.
> 
> ...


She can trust you with her child. That is of huge value to her right there.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> She can trust you with her child. That is of huge value to her right there.


Does any woman truly trust her husband with their child, lol? 

I read a study recently (I wish I could find it) that observed how much women complain about father's not doing more for/with their kids, but how they also don't ever actually let men sit in the driver's seat when they do take action. Kind of a frustrating paradox, that...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Does any woman truly trust her husband with their child, lol?
> 
> I read a study recently (I wish I could find it) that observed how much women complain about father's not doing more for/with their kids, but how they also don't ever actually let men sit in the driver's seat when they do take action. Kind of a frustrating paradox, that...


More than with a stepfather.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Livvie said:


> It's sounds like your wife is interested in a certain type of "life structure" and not so much in a particular person (you) to share her life with or in the actual relationship itself/with YOU.


In a way, you are correct.

My wife, like most women, is primarily concerned with feeling secure. Security is her primary concern, and when she does not feel secure, all other questions of emotional/intimate needs are of no consequence. 

She has done a lot of work in her life to meet her own needs for security through having her own career, but once she had a child, she is now feeling the need for security on an even greater level. It's now not just her security she is anxious about, but our son's security as well.

All the 'love' in the world is useless to her unless that love is also contributing to her primary need to feel secure, to feel 'taken care of.'


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> That you accept those answers without challenge is almost as problematic as her giving them.


I know that you have indicated that you wanted to exit this discussion, but I do want to address this.

I don't feel like I have accepted those answers as "true", but as "true for her." I honestly have no idea what "the truth" is - am I the problem? Is she? If we are both the problem (most likely, of course), which part of which problem is on which partner?

I wouldn't have all of her 'answers' if I hadn't been pushing and challenging this whole time. 

I say that I would really like more sex. She says that I'm too obsessed with sex, and that I might even be a sex addict. Is that true? I have no idea. I certainly seem to be more concerned about my sex life than most men my age (most couples our age seem to have little-to-no sexual component to their marriage anymore - they don't flirt, they aren't 'handsy' or particularly affectionate, no real appearance of romantic love in any form), so maybe she's right.

I say that I feel like not having sex is damaging my relationship with her. She says that I use sex for validation, so of course I'm going to be disappointed that our sex life disappeared when our lives shifted away from being about ourselves to being about our son and 'family.' I no longer have that steady source of validation coming to me, so I take it out on her. Again, I certainly see sex as providing me a sense of well-being and satisfaction that goes beyond just a relieving of physical sexual desires, so is the reason I had/have a problem with not having sex because I'm dependent on sex for validation, or are there legitimate reasons to feel 'incomplete' without a sex life? Again, I have no idea. 

So I'm not just accepting her answers and calling it done, otherwise I wouldn't continue to search for answers in an attempt to make sense of things.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Stop looking for what is "acceptable", and start deciding what is "acceptable to you".

I would not remain in a sexless marriage. Period.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

_most couples our age seem to have little-to-no sexual component to their marriage anymore_

This just amazes me, every time I read it. Before I came to TAM, I did not realize that this happened to anyone under retirement age.

Sorry, Dazed, just an aside. I am from an older, more traditional time, or maybe just a more conservative subset of the population, I guess. Sex to me just seems like part and parcel of marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

_Repost from Emotional Needs thread in Ladies Lounge . . . _

Please do not get yourself in debt for an MBA. It may not pay off.

And if you and your wife are over your heads in debt now, please consider downsizing in some way. Life is already stressful enough without financial pressure.

I do not think it is healthy to try to appear stoic, or really "appear" anything. Being yourself and being honest about your struggles, while taking constructive steps to improve your situation, is much healthier.

I get the sense that you are in despair, and I just do not see any reason to be. Is it the lack of sex that is causing this?


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> Please do not get yourself in debt for an MBA. It may not pay off.


Yeah, that has been my calculus up 'til now. 

However, I think that, regardless, I'm going to have to invest in a substantial amount of school/training if I ever want to again have the sort of career I left behind. I've been trying to think of some kind of business I could start, but I just haven't landed on any financially viable ideas.

So now the calculus is more based around me being able to support myself (and my son) while giving me a way to both be away from the house more and to live a more independent life. While the investment may not pay off in the long run, it would give me the opportunity to do something that actually earns me respect, from myself and from others. It would allow me to feel like 'a man' again, instead of the pathetic loser I've become.



> I do not think it is healthy to try to appear stoic, or really "appear" anything. Being yourself and being honest about your struggles, while taking constructive steps to improve your situation, is much healthier.


This is one case where I think that 'faking it until you make it' might be the best course of action.

My feeling sorry for myself, feeling down, feeling stressed, feeling emasculated, feeling lost, whatever, is MY problem, not anyone else's. No one wants to deal with that crap, nor should they. I have made a concerted effort to keep all that stuff to myself, and it has certainly improved my relationships with others (the few I have left, lol). 

It's the 'constructive steps' that have been stymieing me. I haven't determined a lot of good solutions, so it's best not to share a problem until I can also share my solution to that problem. 

It's like the old management saying, "Don't bring me problems, bring me solutions!" Everyone else has their own problems they are trying to solve, they don't need me bringing additional problems into their lives. 



> I get the sense that you are in despair, and I just do not see any reason to be. Is it the lack of sex that is causing this?


I would say that a lack of sex (and intimacy) certainly contributed/contributes to that, but it's more than that. I would say that my having lost respect - for myself and from others - is the core issue. 

My wife isn't particularly interested in having sex with me because I give her no reason to respect me (and plenty of reasons to be contemptuous of me). All the marriage books in the world won't address that core problem, which is why she has little interest in them. I need to be a man worth respecting, a valuable man, before she is going to be authentically interested in our marriage again. 

How I go about becoming a valuable man again at this point, without doing further damage to myself and my family and digging myself deeper into the 'narcissistic loser' hole is my challenge. I'm tired of being a disappointment and need to figure out how I can start winning at life again. And at this point in my life, I need some big wins to get back on top.

But, as I said earlier, I'm going to start with what I can do right now - not holding back from being the best husband I can be (emotionally if not materially). I'm going to be the kind of husband *I* want to be, not for my wife, but for my own sense of integrity. Yeah, it can hurt when I put myself out there and get rejected or feel emasculated or embarrassed, but I'm doing it for me, not for anyone else.


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## Jo3163 (Apr 17, 2017)

I'm beginning to believe if a spouse says you're needy, the spouse doesn't love you as much as he or she should. After what I've been through, I'd love to have a husband who "needs" to be around me because the alternative hurts when they say they "have to get out of the house" every single Saturday. While all experts say we can't depend on others for our happiness, it's a human trait to want to connect with another person even if it's just as best friends. After 20 yrs of marriage, I'm beginning to really believe that marriage ruins any friendship that was present at the beginning.


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## Jo3163 (Apr 17, 2017)

In the last month, I've started getting into meditation and found a great video. It does help. Clears your mind and kind of recharges your mental batteries, so to speak.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jo3163 said:


> I'm beginning to believe if a spouse says you're needy, the spouse doesn't love you as much as he or she should.


Not everyone has the emotional strength to bear that kind of weight in a relationship. I know I could not.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Yeah, that has been my calculus up 'til now.
> 
> However, I think that, regardless, I'm going to have to invest in a substantial amount of school/training if I ever want to again have the sort of career I left behind. I've been trying to think of some kind of business I could start, but I just haven't landed on any financially viable ideas.
> 
> So now the calculus is more based around me being able to support myself (and my son) while giving me a way to both be away from the house more and to live a more independent life. While the investment may not pay off in the long run, it would give me the opportunity to do something that actually earns me respect, from myself and from others. It would allow me to feel like 'a man' again, instead of the pathetic loser I've become.


You are not a pathetic loser. You have some challenges, but don't we all?

I really do not want to see you get in debt. Just not sure MBAs and certain other degrees are paying off like they may have at one time. 
@farsidejunky You finished your MBA a few years ago, right? Has it helped you get a better job? 



> This is one case where I think that 'faking it until you make it' might be the best course of action.
> 
> My feeling sorry for myself, feeling down, feeling stressed, feeling emasculated, feeling lost, whatever, is MY problem, not anyone else's. No one wants to deal with that crap, nor should they. I have made a concerted effort to keep all that stuff to myself, and it has certainly improved my relationships with others (the few I have left, lol).
> 
> ...


Yes, your feelings are ultimately your responsibility. You are the one who is feeling them, after all. And it has got to be hard to not feel valued by your wife. 

Well, I would not lie to myself in any way. And I would try to be as honest as possible with my partner, too. I want to believe that somehow there is a way through this that does not include divorce.



> I would say that a lack of sex (and intimacy) certainly contributed/contributes to that, but it's more than that. I would say that my having lost respect - for myself and from others - is the core issue.
> 
> My wife isn't particularly interested in having sex with me because I give her no reason to respect me (and plenty of reasons to be contemptuous of me). All the marriage books in the world won't address that core problem, which is why she has little interest in them. I need to be a man worth respecting, a valuable man, before she is going to be authentically interested in our marriage again.
> 
> ...


How about doing some of those things she has asked of you, like the projects around the house? 

You do have to find your own emotional center. I know, it is hard for some of us. I would have to do it, too, without Dug's help, if something were to happen to him. Ultimately we have to rely on ourselves.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

@jld, I don't think doing things around the house is going to help his wife develop feelings of love for him, which she seems to be missing. He's already covered how he spends his non-working time caring for the household and their son. 

I think at this point, Dazed is not going to be in a position to get more from his wife until he feels more confident in himself. Do I have that right, Dazed? And in order to feel more confident, you're going after a career that will provide for the family, correct? 

Is there any chance your part-time work can go to full-time? I'm sure this is something you've considered, but a while back you mentioned that your part-time job pays well, so it must be that you're skilled in that industry, right? Any chance you can leverage that to interview for a full-time position out of the house?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> @jld, I don't think doing things around the house is going to help his wife develop feelings of love for him, which she seems to be missing. He's already covered how he spends his non-working time caring for the household and their son.
> 
> I think at this point, Dazed is not going to be in a position to get more from his wife until he feels more confident in himself. Do I have that right, Dazed? And in order to feel more confident, you're going after a career that will provide for the family, correct?


If her love language is Acts of Service, it may help. And his efforts may at least help her feel her requests have been heard.

I agree he needs more confidence.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

My MBA was conferred in December, 2015. Is has _not_ helped me secure better employment. However, in fairness, after a year of pursuing a higher paying position, I stopped looking. I have figured that I am better off in my current position with the state while trying to build our business that my wife handles day-to-day. There are several reasons for this decision, the most important of which is quality of life.

Is the MBA worth it? Maybe. You need to be in a larger market with access to many larger companies, which I am not. I am about two hours away from two of them, and relocation is simply not an option. If I were going to try to pursue a different career path, I would invest more in a certification of some kind. As an example, a PHR (Professional in Human Resources) certification would be much more lucrative in securing a higher paying position than my MBA, plus it would only take 1/4 of the time and a small fraction of the cost.

Dazed, prestige was a part of why I pursued my MBA as well. Guess what? Now I am the same old me with another piece of paper. It is just another achievement among many that I have pursued in an effort to _feel_ accomplished. 

If you want to be a better man, reinforce the foundation, don't change the drapes.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> My MBA was conferred in December, 2015. Is has _not_ helped me secure better employment. However, in fairness, after a year of pursuing a higher paying position, I stopped looking. I have figured that I am better off in my current position with the state while trying to build our business that my wife handles day-to-day. There are several reasons for this decision, the most important of which is quality of life.
> 
> Is the MBA worth it? Maybe. You need to be in a larger market with access to many larger companies, which I am not. I am about two hours away from two of them, and relocation is simply not an option. If I were going to try to pursue a different career path, I would invest more in a certification of some kind. As an example, a PHR (Professional in Human Resources) certification would be much more lucrative in securing a higher paying position than my MBA, plus it would only take 1/4 of the time and a small fraction of the cost.
> 
> ...


Just curious, far, and not meant to t/j, but has the MBA helped you build your business?

Let me know if you want me to post this on your thread, instead.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

jld said:


> Just curious, far, and not meant to t/j, but has the MBA helped you build your business?
> 
> Let me know if you want me to post this on your thread, instead.


Yes, it has. 

Some fundamentals we covered in that program have helped me develop our pricing models, our true break even point, and the financial/accounting structure of the business.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> and not meant to t/j


Not at all a TJ, lol - I am casting about for any information I can find that might be useful!


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> @jld, I don't think doing things around the house is going to help his wife develop feelings of love for him, which she seems to be missing. He's already covered how he spends his non-working time caring for the household and their son.


Yes and no.

Just managing the household, no. If I were to show more initiative on 'manly' house projects, I think she would be more impressed. Home improvements, building a backyard for our son, fixing our landscaping, keeping up with the yard work and car maintenance and the like. Things that men traditionally do.

Again, she wants to feel like she's with a 'real man'. She wants someone she can look at and speak about with pride. Someone who is impressive in his own right, who is a leader rather than someone who needs her support or direction. Someone she can admire and that others can admire as well.

I think the big things that she is looking, those that would earn her admiration and respect again, are these:

- Kicking ass around the house, going above and beyond the basic domestic duties like cooking, laundry, managing the finances, etc.

- Having a REAL career that makes REAL money again. 

- Pursuing interests that are significant and meaningful. Having passions that make a difference for someone besides just myself. 

- Get healthy again, mentally and physically.

[quoteI think at this point, Dazed is not going to be in a position to get more from his wife until he feels more confident in himself. Do I have that right, Dazed?[/QUOTE]

Well, that would undoubtedly make a difference. It's hard to put my foot down when I'm always feeling like I'm on shaky ground (often with good reason).



> And in order to feel more confident, you're going after a career that will provide for the family, correct?


That would certainly give me some higher ground to operate from, yes.

[QUOTEIs there any chance your part-time work can go to full-time? I'm sure this is something you've considered, but a while back you mentioned that your part-time job pays well, so it must be that you're skilled in that industry, right? Any chance you can leverage that to interview for a full-time position out of the house?[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, no.

My current job is definitely a unique situation. I am a business manager/personal assistant for an wealthy, elderly gentleman who has a variety of business interests and investments that need ongoing management, and he doesn't feel like he has the capacity to manage them himself anymore.

My working with him has been a mixed blessing. On the one hand, I'm not really gaining a lot of highly skilled or specialized industry experience, and I'm often bored out of my skull. On the other, he has become like family to me, and I feel honored and privileged to play such a critical role in his life, and by the trust that he places in me (I have access to all of his money and personal business). I'm grateful that I can make such a difference for him. 

It's interesting - he would be about my dad's age where my dad still alive, and he lost a son who would be my age around the same time that I lost my dad. I can't help but think that we were kinda 'meant for each other', in that we both help fill a void in each other's lives. He and I are very close, and, at a time where I don't have much in the way of friends or family (I really miss my dad when I think about him), it's been great to have a 'father' that I can talk with (he's the one who told me, 'The secret to a long marriage is to not get divorced!' lol). 

But I know that I'm going to need to find something either instead of or in addition to that work, sooner rather than later.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Dazed, I will admit i probably think similar to what you just said. It's not because it's manly stuff, though. It's because I can't do those manly things very well. Can she? 
I can also relate to the comments about having passions that make a difference, which ties into being healthy. 
Simply because if you aren't doing those two things, it's like you are merely surviving, it's obvious you don't like your life and maybe you resent having to do it. 
And if she could trade places with you, those are the things she might do. Appreciate the gift that few parents ever get to experience. It's rare to be able to afford to do what you are doing. Seems like a luxury to someone on the other side of it.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jo3163 said:


> I'm beginning to believe if a spouse says you're needy, the spouse doesn't love you as much as he or she should.


Or they do, but you are a 'Sponge'...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> If her love language is Acts of Service, it may help.


I wasn't super impressed with The Five Love Languages (for a few reasons), but she says that her 'love language' is Words of Affirmation. 

I think that is akin to Harley's need for Admiration.

And yes, I will be the first to say that I have little confidence in myself and life right now. That's why I'm trying to learn how to be more self-sufficient and self-reliant. I want to be able to be confident in myself and in life despite the negative (or utterly indifferent) opinions of those around me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I wasn't super impressed with The Five Love Languages (for a few reasons), but she says that her 'love language' is Words of Affirmation.
> 
> I think that is akin to Harley's need for Admiration.
> 
> And yes, I will be the first to say that I have little confidence in myself and life right now. That's why I'm trying to learn how to be more self-sufficient and self-reliant. I want to be able to be confident in myself and in life despite the negative (or utterly indifferent) opinions of those around me.


I think that starts with self love, Dazed. It is pretty hard to offer love to someone else if you do not love and accept, basically value, yourself.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> If I were going to try to pursue a different career path, I would invest more in a certification of some kind. As an example, a PHR (Professional in Human Resources) certification would be much more lucrative in securing a higher paying position than my MBA, plus it would only take 1/4 of the time and a small fraction of the cost.


I've thought about trying to get a certification (in what, I'm not sure yet). Do you think a certification like that would be helpful for someone who has been out of the corporate world for several years and is looking to start over, or are they better suited for someone who is already working in the field and is taking it to the next level?



> Dazed, prestige was a part of why I pursued my MBA as well. Guess what? Now I am the same old me with another piece of paper. It is just another achievement among many that I have pursued in an effort to _feel_ accomplished.


Yeah, I can relate to that. 

However, I also know that I have to do *something* to try and salvage the last remaining years of my working life, especially if I'm going to move on from my marriage. Right now, I can't afford to get divorced even if I wanted to. Not that I want to necessarily, but it would make 'losing the marriage to save it' much more actionable. I could stop worrying so much about the financial hardships my son would inevitably face.



> If you want to be a better man, reinforce the foundation, don't change the drapes.


A large part of the foundation of a man is his ability to work and to provide for his family, though, is it not? Working and being productive and leaving a mark on this world is what makes a man a man. 

If I don't figure out a way to become a strong provider again, I will certainly spend the rest of my life alone. Which, at this point, isn't even that big of a deal. I've survived the last few years being mostly in my own world. But then I think about my son. I want him to have a father who is always there for him whenever he needs a father, a father whom he can look up to and feel inspired by, whose protection and care is always supporting him. And the thought of losing him for half of the rest of my life is a truly depressing prospect. He is the one thing I have left, the one thing that gives the rest of my life purpose at this point. Nothing would make me feel like more of a failure than not being there for him every day.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

crocus said:


> Dazed, I will admit i probably think similar to what you just said.


Most women do, I find. That's why I haven't come down too hard on my wife. She doesn't expect a whole lot more than what most women expect from their partners.



> It's not because it's manly stuff, though. It's because I can't do those manly things very well. Can she?


She probably could if she put her mind to it, though she isn't as well suited to physical labor as I am. I think part of her resistance is based on principle - why have a man around if he isn't going to do lots of manly things for her? That's why women find men to partner with. 



> I can also relate to the comments about having passions that make a difference, which ties into being healthy.


I can, too. I haven't yet figured out how to pursue meaningful passions in the world while also scrambling just to fulfill on my daily responsibilities. I would love to be a man who can 'do it all', I'm just coming up a bit short on achieving that.

Though, as I've said before, I've got to get stronger and tougher and stop letting my anxiety and feeling alone and sorry for myself suck up my vitality. 

Which means that I need to stop posting on TAM and get to work now, lol...



> Appreciate the gift that few parents ever get to experience.


Don't at all get me wrong. I feel honored to have played such a major role in my son's young childhood. I developed an early bond with him that I don't think many fathers get to develop, and that bond is priceless. And, despite all the costs it entailed, I fulfilled on my deep commitment that my children spend their early years being taken care of by family instead of by the daycare system. Nothing was more important to me than that (clearly).

I just wish I had handled the whole thing better such that it didn't cost me everything else I valued in my life. Which makes me sound like a whiny crybaby, so I'm going to stop thinking about that now and focus on what I can do right now, today, to keep my life moving forward in a positive direction.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Dazed, I would not go the MBA route. There is a lot of risk to not get your money back.

If you want to restart your career, why not looking to start from the beginning? For example, why not looking at a certification in some health care field, like radiology or ultrasounds? The pay is decent and positions available pretty much anywhere (as long as you do not live in the middle of nowhere).


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> I think that starts with self love, Dazed. It is pretty hard to offer love to someone else if you do not love and accept, basically value, yourself.


Yeah, I'm clear on that. 

It's been very hard for me to even determine who the 'self' is that I could value.

So much changed all at once in my life, I definitely lost most of my former identity (not that that is entirely a bad thing). I can't even relate to the person I was seven or eight years ago, nor do I really want to, since he was the guy who landed me in this mess to begin with, lol. 

When you realize that so much of your entire life and identity was built on lies and ideals and wishful thinking, that the whole thing was not much more than a elaborate fraud, it's kinda hard to look at the person who instigated that fraud and have any kind of love or respect for his stupid a$$, lol... :sigh:


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

I keep getting sucked back into this thread. 

Dazed, the key to self love is identifying and living by principles.

Identify what is important, and make all of your decisions based upon that. Each time you choose to follow your principles, you will love yourself a little bit more. Each time you make a difficult decision based on your principles, it will be even greater.

Now I'm actually out. Maybe. Hopefully.

Good luck.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Dazed, the key to self love is identifying and living by principles.


Yeah, that is key. I have also heard them referred to as 'values.'

My problem has been that all of the principles/values that I espoused and lived by prior are what led me into this mess, and were a fraud perpetrated by someone who was in all likelihood nothing more than an idealistic, self-centered, narcissistic loser. What I thought was important turned out to be all wrong. 

So I have to figure out a new set of values, values that will give me the power to be a man in the world as it is, not as I wish it to be. It occurs to me that my developing my own emotional/material self-reliance and self-sufficiency is definitely the first step. I'm the only person I will ever be able to truly count on to meet my needs and have my back when life gets tough, so I better make damned sure I am up to the task (no more mr. nice guy? lol). Anything less will just lead to more disappointment and failure.



> Good luck.


Thanks.


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## trinityjoshua (Apr 24, 2017)

Hey there. If you don't mind me saying so..... I really think that I can help. I have been battling depression for 21 years now. I have just recently made a website where I am talking about my journey. I also talk about marriage on there too. So far there are only two posts on there....... But please feel free to check it out. I hope that I may be able to help you.

Smiles,
Trinity Joshua

I'm Too Overwhelmed- Its More Normal than You think


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Wanted to respond to a couple things here...



crocus said:


> What should have been said was...
> "I don't like what you are doing because I feel HURT when you do it"


My wife is tired of being married to someone who talks about being and acts hurt all the time. She doesn't want to be married to a sensitive wimp.

Funny enough, the one time I felt like she actually regained some (temporary) respect for me in recent years was two or three years ago when I indicated that I had been propositioned by an attractive young woman (the one and only time that has happened, lol). She asked me if I was going to do something about it, and I responded that I was seriously considering it (remember, prior to starting a family, we had had a somewhat sexually non-exclusive relationship, so while my response was certainly not aligned with the new realities of our marriage, I didn't see my considering going outside my marriage to get my sexual needs fulfilled as equivalent to threatening nuclear annihilation). I told her that, since she had no interest in meeting my sexual 'needs', I felt I should consider other options. 

Now, she made it clear that she was in no way happy with my response, but she told me later that she actually respected me in that moment. I was a man who was willing to take action to get what I needed. Now, my taking that action would have most likely destroyed whatever goodwill we still had towards each other (as well as our marriage, perhaps), but there was no denying that it made her look at me differently in that moment. 

Getting involved with a hot piece of a$$ that I met in a goddamned nightclub (of all places) was something I just did not want to expend the time and energy to make happen (those sorts of things always take way more effort than they are worth, I find), and it ultimately wouldn't have solved many problems (and probably would have created many more), so I didn't actually follow through. But it did leave me with a conundrum - if I have to take actions that will likely destroy my marriage in order to have my wife respect me again, what kind of choice is that?



> The unintended consequence is her feelings were dismissed, and you told her "I am not responsible for you feeling bad".


What feelings do you think I dismissed? 



> Saying "I understand " actually makes it worse. Like...you are well aware of her feelings and you don't care. All that matters is your opinion.


I haven't told her "I understand", I can just see her point of view. It's not like I don't understand where she is coming from.



> When you have differing opinions on how a relationship should look, ask how she feels about her views.
> She's being run by her feelings. Needing to feel heard , wanted, etc. That is the purpose of the sexting. You aren't providing that to her, so she is getting it met somewhere else.


While it's true that I don't make her feel wanted, I have had a hard time 'wanting' someone who spent years rejecting me sexually (as well as in other ways). I basically just shut down my sexuality. It is easier to be a non-sexual person than it is to be a sexual person who gets denied sex all the time (or berated for my sexuality). 

So yeah, I'm not making her feel wanted. But how am I supposed to make someone feel wanted when they don't seem to want me?



> It's a good bet she did ask you for those things, but in your opinion it wasn't necessary. Think about that.


What hurts about the sexting thing is that I feel like *she* killed off our sex life. She isn't particularly interested in a sex life with me, but she still enjoys getting sexual attention from others? I feel like, if she wants me to provide her with sexual attention, she needs to accept me as a sexual partner, which means actually having a real sexual relationship with me.

(Incidentally, I figure that's part of why she allowed the sexting to occur - it is a way to feel some sexual excitement without any actual sex or intimacy involved. Kinda like porn or something. It's completely 'safe' and requires no investment or vulnerability)



> But unless she hears you say "I can provide that for you" she isn't going to give it up. No matter what your opinion is about it. And she's right to think that. Because YOU don't get to decide what she needs to feel loved.


I guess I can ask her if she would like me to start sending her sexts, lol. It just seems weird to me to be sending sexts to someone who doesn't appear to have any sexual interest in me.

Though she may be coming around. We finally had a little one-on-one time the other night, and we decided we'd 'party' a little bit and maybe watch a movie or something (we never get to watch movies or TV, so that is a special treat) and see where the night took us. Unfortunately, she started passing out after a half a glass of wine and excused herself to go to bed, saying she would prefer to pass out in bed. She did text me an apology, though, once she was in bed, and let me know that she would have wanted to have sex if she could have, and that she will try to get it together better next time so it can happen. That right there marks a big step, as far as I'm concerned. Just knowing that she wants to have sex (with me, lol) is more than I've gotten in a long time. 



> All great. Except at this point it's gone too far. A truce, treaty, call off the war, and make a declaration to try and learn what each other's needs are.


Yeah, I think that is what is needed, too. I think she is open to it. I just have to figure out how to let go of several years worth of hurt, resentment, and feelings of betrayal. 

The one thing I know is that those feelings from the past, combined with the current lack of trust and connection, are crippling my ability to be with her today. I won't be able to give myself fully to the marriage again until I get those resolved for myself.



> Specific. Actions that can be measured, in black and white, without opinions. Then honestly decide if either one of you can even honour them.
> It's not weak to do this. It's owning your part in it. So if necessary, you know you tried.


I get that.

I think one thing that holds me back is that I want her to *want* to take those actions. I feel uncomfortable with the idea of her giving me, say, a sexual relationship, or spending time with me, or whatever, just because that's what I demand. Fulfilling 'my needs' because she feels she has to fulfill them in order to keep me happy, rather than it being a natural expression for her. 

I feel like her doing those things out of a sense of obligation or 'duty' may lead to greater resentments down the road. She has already indicated that she feels like she 'lost herself' in me and my needs for most of our long marriage previously and she is disappointed and resentful because of it. Neither of us want a repeat of that.



> The bad part? Your needs aren't going to met in this process. You won't die. You will learn about yourself and maybe even your needs will change.


Yeah, I'm seeing that. But my needs (at least, my emotional needs) aren't really being met today, except by my son (which is part of why I've been hanging on for so long), so I know I won't die, lol. I don't have much else to lose at this point.



> Good luck.


Thanks!


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## hylton7 (Jan 24, 2017)

wish you the best of luck man hope things work out will for you.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> Stop looking for what is "acceptable", and start deciding what is "acceptable to you".


I don't think what is 'acceptable to me' even exists. I don't know if it ever did. Maybe I just got lucky.

I think I had a lot of idealism regarding myself and others and love and relationships and sex and the rest of it. I fell for a lot of the window dressing we humans put around things that are just our base animal instincts acting out. 



> I would not remain in a sexless marriage. Period.


It's not like my sex life would suddenly flourish were I to divorce tomorrow, so I'm not sure bailing on a marriage because it is sexless accomplishes much for me, other than to inflict further destruction and pain on myself and my family. And, while my marriage may suck by previous standards, at least I get to live in a nice(r) house and spend time with my son everyday (not getting to be with him would definitely cause a feeling of emotional deprivation). 

I feel like throwing out an ultimatum (even if I fully intend to act on it and leave) is essentially wearing a suicide vest and threatening to pull the cord. "I'm unhappy, and I'm willing to blow myself up and take all of you with me unless you meet my demands!" That might get results, but do I really want them?


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

trinityjoshua said:


> Hey there. If you don't mind me saying so..... I really think that I can help. I have been battling depression for 21 years now. I have just recently made a website where I am talking about my journey. I also talk about marriage on there too. So far there are only two posts on there....... But please feel free to check it out. I hope that I may be able to help you.
> 
> Smiles,
> Trinity Joshua
> ...


Thanks for sharing. 

It sounds like you feel about your husband like my wife feels about me, lol. 

And I feel like you regarding my life, for sure. Unfortunate to say. Wish it weren't so for either of us...


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Boundaries are important in marriage. We teach people how to treat us, and by staying in a roommate-type marriage, you're letting your wife know what you will tolerate.

I think many marriages would improve if we simply raised the bar for what we are willing to live with.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> I think one thing that holds me back is that I want her to *want* to take those actions. *I feel uncomfortable with the idea of her giving me, say, a sexual relationship, or spending time with me, or whatever, just because that's what I demand. Fulfilling 'my needs' because she feels she has to fulfill them in order to keep me happy, rather than it being a natural expression for her. *
> 
> I feel like her doing those things out of a sense of obligation or 'duty' may lead to greater resentments down the road. She has already indicated that she feels like she 'lost herself' in me and my needs for most of our long marriage previously and she is disappointed and resentful because of it. Neither of us want a repeat of that.


Totally agree with the bolded. That is why I think inspiration, however challenging, is the way to go.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazed, I agree that you should never expect your wife to fulfill your needs because you demand it, especially the need for sex because doing so without real desire could cause an aversion. 

The boundary you set is that you expect your spouse to care enough about you in marriage to work with you to improve the marriage. And that is a process that does not start with an ultimatum. It includes a mutual agreement to work together to meet each other's needs, and being vulnerable enough with each other to express them without contempt and/or disregard, and her (and you) voicing complaints so you know what you can do better to meet her needs in a way that will allow her to desire you. Basically, you both have to commit to helping each other fall back in love. 

But it sounds like she isn't on board (yet). And that's your challenge- to keep the issue on the front burner.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

@Jessica38

I think that the kind of approach you are advocating requires coming from a place of strength rather than weakness.

Right now, I feel like I don't have many cards to play, so it looks like the strongest card I have is "I won't stay in this marriage if it continues like this. I can't deal with your behavior, so I will have to leave."

Of course, that just fires up her fears of abandonment, so she goes into full-on self-preservation mode. Which, at least for her, means she is *less* likely to listen to what I have to say or to think of solutions that involve 'us.'

I think the first thing I have to work on is becoming strong again (back to the emotionally, possibly materially, independent), such that I can stay cool and calm and 'above it all' in the face of her bad behavior. Then I can shift from being reactive to proactive, which will benefit us both.

Last night provided another wake up call for me. My wife got home from work late and came in the door frazzled and starving. I had dinner *almost* ready to go, but I needed to pop out to the store to grab two more basic items to complete the meal (I had to take care of something for my son last minute, which led to my neglecting to pay attention to my meal plan closely enough to have that handled earlier, and I had thought she might be home in time to watch our son so I could make a quick trip).

This was the very last thing my wife wanted to hear, and, in her frustration, she let me know, and not in a productive way. 

I, of course, reacted badly. I had been working my ass off to get a nice dinner ready so I was also already totally frustrated with the situation. So I took her frustration and complaining as an indictment of me and my efforts, and let fly back at her before storming out the door to go to the store. Needless to say, dinner was going to be ruined whether I went to the store or not.

(EDIT: I should point out here that my son had gone over to the neighbor's house to play while I was finishing making dinner, so he wasn't present for the fight. We do have a rule about not fighting like that in front of him. Shielding him from the various issues in our marriage is a top priority for us.)

The take-away for my wife was that she can't have breakdowns around me without the risk of setting me off (both about my inability to manage our home well enough, and about her not being supportive enough). She was sorry for her bad behavior, but once again feels like she has to walk on eggshells around me.

Now, coming from a place of strength and self-assuredness, I could have stepped back from the situation. Instead of immediately pushing back, I could have let her have her little breakdown/freak out, explained how that sort of thing is not productive or respectful, and immediately set about looking for a solution (I could find her a snack, I could heat up some leftovers and leave the dinner for another night, I could have grabbed my keys and left quickly without getting involved in the drama, etc). 

Instead, I was attached to trying to be the 'good husband' by having my responsibilities handled perfectly, and her breakdown led to my being angry at my failure to accomplish that, and I took it out on both her and myself. I ended up going to the store, but I left in a foul mood and my wife was left in near tears. And that's a pattern that repeats itself often.

In retrospect, that was about the worst way to enforce my 'boundary.' She did cross a boundary, but my reaction did little to set her up for success the next time that boundary gets pushed.

So I can see the same dynamic when it comes to 'I will not tolerate my marriage.' If I can step back, get past my own sense of shame and hurt and fear of rejection, stop taking her problems (with me or with life) personally, and come from a place of strength and self-assuredness, I can probably approach finding a solution that isn't 'my way or the highway.' I can *lead* her into finding a win/win.

I have got to find my feet in my marriage again. I don't know what that is going to take, but I'm going to have to figure it out if I want a future that isn't miserable. I keep circling back to the idea of being emotionally independent, being more able to stand strong in the face of her emotional turbulence. And I *want* to be that guy, for myself, even if I'm not married to my wife. I *want* to be someone who is strong and in control and able to stay above whatever fray I may find myself in. I used to be that guy (granted, that was back when life was easier and the stakes were lower), and I need to be him again, at a higher level, for my family and for myself. That was one of my most valuable qualities, and I can imagine that the people in my life sorely miss my being able to be that for them.

Thanks for letting me share that.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

So today I got to have lunch with my wife. Having lunch together is now starting to happen on an almost weekly basis, so that's pretty awesome.

During our brief time, she brought up to me that, in her work, she started looking at attachment theory again.

She and I definitely recognize ourselves in attachment theory. I am, for sure, on the anxious end, and she is, for sure, on the avoidant end. We've both kinda known that, but it really does throw things into stark relief.

Under duress, I'm going to become 'needy' and want to get closer, while she is going to want detach and be independent. She feels like she can't 'be herself' around me because how she is often causes me anxiety, which then causes her to shut down and go away.

She basically let me know that she has little interest in trying to do anything with me until I can get myself under control around her. She said she loves me, but it's very hard for her to be with me.

So I need to get that anxiety under control or our marriage is over.

Classic example happened at the end of lunch. She wanted to talk to me about something she was excited about. She has been trying to find ways to work with kids more (it's her dream to work with kids), and she may have found a volunteer opportunity that would allow her to do so. I immediately interjected with "Are you sure? *We* should be spending more time together..." She was so upset and frustrated with my reaction that she almost broke down into tears. "Why is it always about *you*? I bring up anything, and you find a way to make it about *you*! Can you hear me out, and if you have a concern or a request, can you bring it up *after* I'm done telling you what I want to tell you? You were even the one telling me I should find something that I love to do in life so I can be inspired again."

So yeah, not my finest moment. That just reaffirmed for her that there is no point talking to me about her life, that I don't care.

Which of course isn't true - I want more than anything to be the person she comes to to talk about what she is up to in life (especially since she so rarely talks about things). But my anxious attachment style hamstrings my ability to be that person. Ugh.

Not sure what to do, but I think I'll start a new topic on the subject of overcoming the anxious/avoidant dynamic.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Also, that's why I have little interest in divorce. Until I have my attachment anxiety under control, I am never going to have a fulfilling relationship with anyone. I have to get that taken care of first, then I can look at my options.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Also, that's why I have little interest in divorce. Until I have my attachment anxiety under control, I am never going to have a fulfilling relationship with anyone. I have to get that taken care of first, then I can look at my options.


Or you find a woman who is okay with that issue and actually enjoys meeting your needs just as they are. A natural Win/Win.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Also, that's why I have little interest in divorce. Until I have my attachment anxiety under control, I am never going to have a fulfilling relationship with anyone. I have to get that taken care of first, then I can look at my options.


If I were you, I'd try to determine if you actually have attachment anxiety. I think anyone normal and average would have a problem with and anxiety about the kind of marriage (roommate situation) you are in.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> This was the very last thing my wife wanted to hear, and, in her frustration, she let me know, and not in a productive way.
> 
> She needs to clean up her side of the street- she's reacting to you with irritation/angry outbursts too.
> 
> ...


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Also, that's why I have little interest in divorce. Until I have my attachment anxiety under control, I am never going to have a fulfilling relationship with anyone. I have to get that taken care of first, then I can look at my options.


No one has to be perfect to have a fulfilling marriage, and even if you are when you get married, obviously there is no guarantee that anxiety will not rear its head down the line. The goal is to have a fulfilling marriage that can survive bouts of anxiety/stress.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica, how will he "not tolerate" her angry outbursts?


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Classic example happened at the end of lunch. She wanted to talk to me about something she was excited about. She has been trying to find ways to work with kids more (it's her dream to work with kids), and she may have found a volunteer opportunity that would allow her to do so. I immediately interjected with "Are you sure? *We* should be spending more time together..." She was so upset and frustrated with my reaction that she almost broke down into tears. "Why is it always about *you*? I bring up anything, and you find a way to make it about *you*! Can you hear me out, and if you have a concern or a request, can you bring it up *after* I'm done telling you what I want to tell you? You were even the one telling me I should find something that I love to do in life so I can be inspired again."
> 
> So yeah, not my finest moment. That just reaffirmed for her that there is no point talking to me about her life, that I don't care.
> .


Actually, it reaffirms why your marriage is in trouble. Your wife doesn't want to give up her independent lifestyle, in which she does what she wants without care or regard for you or her marriage. Personally, I'd be flattered and overjoyed if my husband asked me to reconsider taking on added obligation in the interest of protecting our time together.

The bottom line: your wife doesn't want to spend time with you. She's in withdrawal and has a serious issue with independent behavior, which explains why she has no interest in working with you to improve the marriage. It would interfere with her plans that do not include you.

I think the only self-esteem issue you have is that you are in an unloving marriage in which your wife does not care about you.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jld said:


> Jessica, how will he "not tolerate" her angry outbursts?


He tells her "It bothers me when you say/do/act like that." And leave the room or grab his keys to go to the store. He does not stand there and take it, and he certainly does not react in kind, and he does not try to placate her by preparing her a snack. She's not a child, she's an adult, and angry outbursts are a serious lovebuster in marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> He tells her "It bothers me when you say/do/act like that." And leave the room or grab his keys to go to the store. He does not stand there and take it, and he certainly does not react in kind, and he does not try to placate her by preparing her a snack. She's not a child, she's an adult, and angry outbursts are a serious lovebuster in marriage.


My husband's most effective approach when I engage in angry outbursts is to look at why I am angry, and talk about it with me. That empathy and lack of fear calms me down right away. 

If he were to leave the room, or otherwise disengage, I would think he were very, very weak. It would be as though my anger were stronger than he was. I certainly would not feel safe with a man who did that.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jld said:


> My husband's most effective approach when I engage in angry outbursts is to look at why I am angry, and talk about it with me. That empathy and lack of fear calms me down right away.
> 
> If he were to leave the room, or otherwise disengage, I would think he were very, very weak. It would be as though my anger were stronger than he was. I certainly would not feel safe with a man who did that.


You're a wife in love with her husband. Do you become angry with him for making you dinner and explaining that he has to run out to grab extra items to complete it for you?

Being upset and getting angry at your spouse are two different things. I was very upset with my husband over the weekend. I did not react badly to him- I explained why I was upset and we discussed it. An angry outburst is a lovebuster, and is damaging to marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> You're a wife in love with her husband. Do you become angry with him for making you dinner and explaining that he has to run out to grab extra items to complete it for you?
> 
> Being upset and getting angry at your spouse are two different things. I was very upset with my husband over the weekend. I did not react badly to him- I explained why I was upset and we discussed it. An angry outburst is a lovebuster, and is damaging to marriage.


She came home from her family-supporting job worn out and hungry. I doubt many here would tell a man in that same position he would be wrong to be upset if dinner were not ready. I think most would declare it the responsibility of the sahm, and a show of respect for the man who supports her. (Not saying I agree. But based on what I have read here, I do think many would.)

Now, does it help for a provider of either sex to be upset? No. The at home parent was trying to get things ready on time, but it did not happen.

It only takes one or the other to be calm and understanding and generally helpful when things go awry to avoid turning a mole hill into a mountain. This time his wife could not be the one.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

jld said:


> She came home from her family-supporting job worn out and hungry. I doubt many here would tell a man in that same position he would be wrong to be upset if dinner were not ready. I think most would declare it the responsibility of the sahm, and a show of respect for the man who supports her. (Not saying I agree. But based on what I have read here, I do think many would.)
> 
> Now, does it help for a provider of either sex to be upset? No. The at home parent was trying to get things ready on time, but it did not happen.
> 
> It only takes one or the other to be calm and understanding and generally helpful when things go awry to avoid turning a mole hill into a mountain. This time his wife could not be the one.


My husband has certainly come home very hungry and he's never had an angry outburst at me for not having it ready for him. That would be abusive. If I upset my husband in any way, I expect him to tell me, but not to have an angry outburst.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> My husband has certainly come home very hungry and he's never had an angry outburst at me for not having it ready for him. That would be abusive. If I upset my husband in any way, I expect him to tell me, but not to have an angry outburst.


That's great. But Dazed's wife did get upset, and did have an angry outburst. And I doubt telling her not to have them anymore will mean they are gone forever.

He could try the leaving the room thing. Some women here have said they like it when their husbands do that.

I just would have no respect for it. Again, to me it would say that my anger is stronger than he is, and the only way he can possibly cope is by fleeing from the overwhelming power of my anger.

I just could not feel safe with a man like that. And I certainly would not have any sexual attraction to him.


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

jld said:


> That's great. But Dazed's wife did get upset, and did have an angry outburst. And I doubt telling her not to have them anymore will mean they are gone forever.
> 
> He could try the leaving the room thing. Some women here have said they like it when their husbands do that.
> 
> ...


I wholeheartedly disagree. Walking away from an argument is not "fleeing" nor is it a sign of that person's resolve being weaker than your anger. It is exercising one's self control in order to avoid losing it. I personally would NOT feel safe with a person who didn't have the sense to walk away because EVERYONE has their breaking point. 

I also don't see how this has anything to do with sex. I must be low on testosterone.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

m00nman said:


> I wholeheartedly disagree. Walking away from an argument is not "fleeing" nor is it a sign of that person's resolve being weaker than your anger. It is exercising one's self control in order to avoid losing it. I personally would NOT feel safe with a person who didn't have the sense to walk away because EVERYONE has their breaking point.
> 
> I also don't see how this has anything to do with sex. I must be low on testosterone.


I admire emotional strength in men. To me, that strength is exhibited when a man says, "Help me understand," or makes other empathetic gestures, such as Active Listening, in the face of a woman's anger. 

Remaining calm and seeking to understand why she is angry says strength to me. Running out of the room or making threats does not.

If a man feels he must leave the room because he will lose control of himself if he does not, he could acknowledge it by saying, "I need to leave so I can cool down before I speak to you. I want to be my best self for you, and right now I cannot be. In 20 minutes I will be back." In this way he can take responsibility for his emotional state without blaming her for it, which sets a good example.

We are all wired a little differently with what we are attracted to. This kind of emotional strength in men inspires me and makes me trust them. In my husband, it makes me feel safe with him and makes me want to be physically as well as emotionally close to him.


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## m00nman (Nov 29, 2014)

jld said:


> I admire emotional strength in men. To me, that strength is exhibited when a man says, "Help me understand," or makes other empathetic gestures, such as Active Listening, in the face of a woman's anger.
> 
> Remaining calm and seeking to understand why she is angry says strength to me. Running out of the room or making threats does not.
> 
> ...


Firstly, I congratulate you on you and your husbands well developed ability to manage your anger. 

Sadly, that has not been my experience in life. I have seen too much discord in the form of both passive aggressiveness and outright physical aggression to have faith that people can in any way healthily control their emotional responses. For my part I have tried not to allow myself to be baited but will instead just stop and breathe for a second or so before trying to defuse the tension with humor. My failing is that that breath comes out as a sigh and I let sarcasm and judgementalism creep into my words, which tends to get under people's skin and makes things worse. Now I'm just trying to change the subject whenever a rant happens. 

I agree with your sentiment that allows you to respond with a script that defers the situation, allowing a "time out" before reconvening when emotions have settled down. This is a technique that we've used in dealing with our children when they are being emotionally immature. I'm sorry if that sounds too simplistic or condescending, but I think that may be part of the issue between the OP and his wife.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

I see a lot of criticism, disrespectful judgements, and now angry outbursts from Dazed's wife. Of course, like he said, she's not here to give her perspective, but all of those are lovebusters, and added to her independent behavior, I think Dazed is assuming a lot of responsibility for the issues in the marriage when she's not cleaning up her side of the street. I think his anxiety/depression are related to how he is being treated in his marriage.

When I first posted to help, I encouraged Dazed to work to understand his wife better, to try to meet her needs and encourage her to work with him on the marriage. But his wife not only refuses, she responds with disrespectful judgements. To me, this is not ok. 

@jld, I understand what you're saying about how your husband meets your anger with strength, and I'm sure that's been the case in my marriage too. But the fact that you're in love means that your marriage can likely withstand a hit to your husband's lovebank (Marriage Builders term for Lovebusters) once in a while if you get angry with him. But Dazed's wife is repeatedly committing lovebusters that I listed above, and Dazed has said he and his wife are probably no longer in love. This can be fixed, but only if the lovebusters are identified and eliminated, and they work to deposit feelings of love by meeting each other's needs. This isn't happening at all.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Livvie said:


> If I were you, I'd try to determine if you actually have attachment anxiety.
> 
> I would say that my baseline is definitely in the realm of 'anxious', given the descriptions I've read. Usually, when I'm healthy and in healthy relationships, it doesn't affect myself or others too much, but under duress, that's where I go.
> 
> ...


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Thousands of years of study of humans have revealed that we NEED other people. We are not solo hunters, we are pack animals and more so than any other pack animal.

That doesn't mean you must be married or have an intimate partner but it DOES mean you need connections to other people. The latest studies by neuroscientists say this is not an emotional need - it is a physical need. People who genuinely never see other people suffer severe immune deficiencies, the level of all neurotransmitters in the brain declines and they basically start dying, albeit quite slowly.

One problem many people (including me) create for themselves is that, once hitched to a romantic partner, they fall away from having other friends. VERY bad idea - it means your only connection to humanity is through one other person. I'm struggling now, trying to make more connections with others - my wife is a fearful type who never wants to be around anybody else including me, so she's not much connection. When I worked a regular job, all my work colleagues were that connection - neat folks to be around, bounce ideas off of, hear how they're handling things in their life, and affirming that, hey look, I'm really human because I can see other humans interacting with me!

There are certainly some emotional needs we're "supposed to" take care of on our own. Like happiness. It's a choice, it's not something that other people do for you. There are other emotional needs for which others are really useful - lousy day at work? Really nice to have someone you can express it to who does nothing more than say "that sucks, sorry it happened". My wife, being the consummate fixer, always replied with "what did you do to cause it?". Du-urr.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Your wife doesn't want to give up her independent lifestyle, in which she does what she wants without care or regard for you or her marriage.


Out of fairness to her, I think her point was less 'You don't support me in what I want to do' and more 'You don't even let me share what I'm interested in in life. You immediately go into reactivity mode if you don't like what I'm saying, or if you don't see an immediate relevance for you in what I'm saying. Unless it's somehow about you and what you want, you don't want to hear it.'

Additionally, she was really pissed that I seemed to equate her 'I am looking for ways to do more with kids because that's what I really love in life' with 'You don't care about our marriage or me.' She felt that was very unfair (I can see that) and that she doesn't necessarily have to choose between caring about what she loves to do in life and caring about our marriage and her love for me. She can care about both. 

And, if I have a question or concern about how she was spending her time, or a request that she do something different, that I at least here what she has to say before rendering a verdict. Sometimes she just wants to share her dreams with me, and I won't even let her do that.



> She's in withdrawal and has a serious issue with independent behavior, which explains why she has no interest in working with you to improve the marriage. It would interfere with her plans that do not include you.


And she would say 'I do want to work with you on improving our marriage (and she has taken steps to improve it, such as doing some reading and going to MC, as well as trying to be more accepting and less critical of me) and I don't appreciate you seeing anything that I do that isn't related to that as a threat. We have to be able to have multiple goals at once.'

I think one issue is that, before we had kids, she had plenty of time to do what I wanted to do and what she wanted to do. She could be both independent and part of a partnership (though occasionally I would have to reign her in). Now that there is little-to-no time in our lives, there is a ongoing conflict between her need to be independent and her need to take care of others (our son, her work, etc), and she feels that she doesn't get the time to herself that she needs. 



> I think the only self-esteem issue you have is that you are in an unloving marriage in which your wife does not care about you.


It seems to me that it's dangerous, though, to allow one's self-esteem to be dependent on another person or a relationship or a circumstance or even 'love.' That's clearly something that was going on in my previous life, and my tying my self-esteem to all those external things left me in the mess I find myself in today. I would like to get to the point where my self-esteem is strong enough to remain unchanged, regardless of how people around me perceive me, or what my circumstances are. That's my goal. 

Because it seems to me, if I don't achieve that goal, I'm likely to experience this same problem in any relationship or situation I find myself in going forward. What happens the next time I find 'love' and feel all better about myself, then that 'love' goes away again? I can't keep riding that rollercoaster...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Oh, and this...



Jessica38 said:


> The bottom line: your wife doesn't want to spend time with you.


And she insists that that isn't what's going on, and that I'm treating her unfairly and disrespectfully for suggesting that that is the case. 

She points out that she has already said that she looks forward to spending more time together in the evenings if and when we can get our son to go to sleep earlier and more quickly. She tells me that if she could spend more time with me, she would. She has also challenged me to come up with my own ideas and present them to her, if that is what I really want and I feel like she's not doing enough.

Of course, I feel like she often makes herself unavailable in a variety of ways (like her unwillingness to get a babysitter that wasn't a blood relative until just recently), so I stopped thinking of ways to spend more time together out of frustration a while ago (same thing happened with sex, incidentally). 

But I'm taking her up on the challenge. Just today I suggested that we make our lunch dates an official, regular thing on the schedule. That's an easy win if we can make it happen.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> If he were to leave the room, or otherwise disengage, I would think he were very, very weak. It would be as though my anger were stronger than he was. I certainly would not feel safe with a man who did that.


I think my wife feels the same way.

And she thinks I'm even weaker when what she does causes a negative reaction in me.

She often mentions that she feels like she has to be 'perfect' all the time to avoid setting me off. That she has no safe space to be cranky or unhappy. That if she has a breakdown, I'm just going to make it ten times worse by my reaction.

One thing is that she feels like I don't trust her, that I act like she doesn't love me, that I react like she is a terrible person, and that I have no regard or respect for the love she has for me. 

And she may have a point. 

When I feel confident and secure in our relationship and in her love, I can easily brush off her various breakdowns and cranky outbursts. I know that she loves me, she's just being cranky or in a breakdown. I don't have to take it personally.

She is frustrated that I treat her, through my reactions, like she doesn't love me and is my enemy instead of my wife. She is frustrated that I extend her no credit at all, regardless of what she is going through.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Being upset and getting angry at your spouse are two different things.


To be fair, I think she was more upset that she was starving and tired and late getting home and was going to have to wait even longer to get something to eat. She didn't dress me down for not having dinner ready. She was, however, quite upset and responded with an unequivocal 'No! That's not going to work! We'll have to save that dinner for tomorrow or something and find something else...' when I said I was going to have to pop out for the last ingredients. I, of course, took that as a personal criticism of my failure to have dinner ready.

She reminded me later that she had already told me that she started a diet last week (of course, I have no idea what's going on with that, so I didn't know it was in full effect at that point) so she wishes I could be more sympathetic about the hard time she is having with regards to food and energy and not go ballistic on her 'cause she sometimes gets cranky and short with me. And I requested that she keep me updated with regards to things like her diet that might need extra care so I can be prepared accordingly, either with the food situation or for her getting upset easily. Hopefully we can start communicating more regularly...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Dazed has said he and his wife are probably no longer in love.


I should point out that I don't often feel 'in love.' 

My wife says over and over that she loves me and that she wants to be married to me, though I'm not exactly sure where that is coming from. She is frustrated that I don't treat her as though she does, and she's frustrated that my view of our marriage is causing me so much anxiety and depression (which then impacts our marriage). She is particularly upset with how I treated her when she stopped being able to meet my needs at the level she had been doing. She clearly thinks my whole approach to love/marriage is unhealthy and unreasonable and entirely self-centered.

At this point, I am questioning whether I even know what love or being 'in love' actually is. I feel as though I may have been delusional and unrealistic about the whole concept of love from the beginning and don't really understand what those terms really mean anymore. For many years, I thought I knew, and never even questioned it. Now, though, I have way more questions than answers.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Dazed, your wife doesn't want to meet your needs and tells you she feels you are too needy, etc. This is a huge billboard sign that she is not in love with you. Feelings of love are not a choice- they are what happens to us when someone of the opposite sex is meeting so many of our needs that we feel intensely attracted to them and want to be with them and meet their needs. You've said here many times that the issue is that you are not attractive to your wife. 

I want to give you one more point to consider before I sign off on this thread because I don't think I can be of help to you since you have a different view than what I just stated. But here's another thing I just learned listening to Dr. Harley on his radio show:

A good marriage makes everything better, and a bad marriage makes everything worse. 

His point was that even in less than desirable circumstances, a good marriage can make the need for many other things we value in life less important and stressful if we don't have enough of them.

I really believe you can restore the love in your marriage, but only if you're willing to recognize that it's missing for your wife.

I wish you and your wife all the best.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> Dazed, your wife doesn't want to meet your needs and tells you she feels you are too needy, etc. This is a huge billboard sign that she is not in love with you. Feelings of love are not a choice- they are what happens to us when someone of the opposite sex is meeting so many of our needs that we feel intensely attracted to them and want to be with them and meet their needs. You've said here many times that the issue is that you are not attractive to your wife.
> 
> I want to give you one more point to consider before I sign off on this thread because I don't think I can be of help to you since you have a different view than what I just stated. But here's another thing I just learned listening to Dr. Harley on his radio show:
> 
> ...


Actually, I agree with you almost entirely here. And I, for one, am completely willing to recognize that it's missing for my wife. It's just that she seems to either not agree or to vehemently disagree, so I'm struggling with the resulting cognitive dissonance I'm experiencing, and how to move forward in the face of such cognitive dissonance. 

I am making progress, however, when I focus on my being who *I* can be and who *I* want to be, and leaving that which causes me such confusion and dissonance out of the picture for now (since I'm committed to taking action for myself, not her or even our marriage - it's gotta be about me and my own integrity first).

It also occurred to me that I can ask her to create for me the love that she feels for me (as opposed to just saying that it exists). That's not a hugely onerous task, I wouldn't think, and it would serve a few purposes - it would give her a chance to be accountable for her words, I can see for myself what is informing her commitment, it will bring us both into contact with the 'reality' of our feelings and our marriage (a 'level-set', as it were), and it also might give me something positive to work from rather than always coming from the known negatives. We often talk about our problems; rarely do we talk about what we like or love about each other.

Hell, at the very least, it would change up our typical conversation, lol. That right there is exciting...

And what Dr. Harley says is 100% how I've always felt about marriage, right or wrong.

Thank you for all your help in this thread. Just know that it has made a huge difference of me.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Dazed, would you be willing to describe your wife's outburst when she came home? As in, was it body language or verbal yelling or sighs and dirty looks?
(You were offended by it, not saying it was acceptable) but just asking for your description ?


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

crocus said:


> Dazed, would you be willing to describe your wife's outburst when she came home? As in, was it body language or verbal yelling or sighs and dirty looks?
> (You were offended by it, not saying it was acceptable) but just asking for your description ?


I was offended by it, but then made it worse with my reaction. 

It was a short interaction before I lost it myself, but I would say there was an intensity to it that set me off, not really outright yelling. Kind of an exasperated, upset and I've-hit-the-end-of-my-rope 'WTF?!?! Are you ****ing kidding me?' sort of thing. Cross might be a good way to describe it, I think. And not passive aggressive (sigh, dirty looks) at all, lol. 

With these interactions and my reactions, I think that at least one problem is that we don't spend a lot of time communicating with each other, period. Especially not 'intimately.' At least that's how I feel (my wife, being an introvert, gets exhausted from talking with people, and she has to talk to people all day at work, so she might not see our communication patterns the same way). It's not like there are a whole bunch of lovey-dovey, supportive, affirming interactions and then every now and then someone has a bad day and snaps. That lack of balance tends to give negative interactions greater significance for me and they hit me harder than they would otherwise. And that's on top of the fact that I never feel like I'm bringing much of value to the marriage or to my wife, so it's easy to make me feel like **** when I screw something up.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Thank you, Dazed.
I prefer to objectively read patterns...so what I "see" is you have a high need for verbal communication that is affirming, supportive, lovey-dovey.
Nothing wrong with that.
Except....it's all up to you to decide if your opinion about someone else's words matches what you want.
I am personally familiar with this struggle, and have personal experience with being on the receiving end of an emotional response as you describe you tend to do.
If you are capable of making a snap decision that she criticized you, you are also capable of NOT doing that.
No matter what transpires, it isn't your fault (it happens too often) and your base default way of being as a person is why you can't change.
Okay. 
So, if you really feel you deserve to only hear nice things and people aren't allowed to be disappointed in your actions, and can't possibly love you as a person unless you are perfect...you end up where you are now.
It's called "if you loved me, I would know because I would feel good about myself".
Only on fantasy island. Hugs to you



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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

crocus said:


> Thank you, Dazed.


Thank *you* for engaging.



> I prefer to objectively read patterns...so what I "see" is you have a high need for verbal communication that is affirming, supportive, lovey-dovey.
> Nothing wrong with that.


Are you sure that I have a 'high need'? Is that not a fairly normal thing?

Gottman observed that happy couples have a 20 to 1 ration of positive interactions to negative interactions, healthy couples have at least a 5 to 1 ratio, and most couples won't make it once it gets down to 1 to 1 or even -1 to 1. 

For at least a couple years, it felt like our ratio was -5 to 1. Most of our communication - beyond just brief logistical conversations - happened when one of us was upset by the other, and even then, rarely did we have time to actually get any issues resolved. 

We're past that, but I would still say that we aren't anywhere near 5 to 1 yet. 

It seems to me that I might not be completely out of the norm... 



> Except....it's all up to you to decide if your opinion about someone else's words matches what you want...If you are capable of making a snap decision that she criticized you, you are also capable of NOT doing that.


Yep. I get 'triggered', for sure, and as soon as I do, I feel criticism and contempt. I'm sure my wife wasn't looking, when she walked in the door, for ways to criticize me. She was just hungry and had an expectation that she would be able to eat right away when she got home. And she had the usual upset (in an emotionally charged way) we all experience when we have an expectation that isn't met. And I decided what that meant to me.

Still, it's getting hard not to get triggered, given how often what I do causes upsets. It's hard to keep that at a distance.



> No matter what transpires, it isn't your fault (it happens too often) and your base default way of being as a person is why you can't change.


I'm not clear on this - what are you saying isn't my fault?



> So, if you really feel you deserve to only hear nice things and people aren't allowed to be disappointed in your actions, and can't possibly love you as a person unless you are perfect...you end up where you are now.
> It's called "if you loved me, I would know because I would feel good about myself".
> Only on fantasy island. Hugs to you


Wow. Thanks for writing that so succinctly. Definitely gotta see what I can do about that.

Incidentally, I think that is what my wife is so frustrated by with me, and why she feels she can't really do any more for me at this point. She has communicated similar ideas more than a few times (though never so clearly), so I think you may be doing a pretty good pattern reading.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Actions. Get dinner ready on time and you won't disappoint yourself. Pay attention to her diet and you won't have a problem. Those kind of things.
I may "read" between the lines, only as what you say is textbook predictable behaviour. 

Right down to quoting sources to back up your opinion.
May you find peace amid the void. 




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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Jessica38 said:


> I see a lot of criticism, disrespectful judgements, and now angry outbursts from Dazed's wife. Of course, like he said, she's not here to give her perspective, but all of those are lovebusters, and added to her independent behavior, I think Dazed is assuming a lot of responsibility for the issues in the marriage when she's not cleaning up her side of the street. I think his anxiety/depression are related to how he is being treated in his marriage.
> 
> When I first posted to help, I encouraged Dazed to work to understand his wife better, to try to meet her needs and encourage her to work with him on the marriage. But his wife not only refuses, she responds with disrespectful judgements. To me, this is not ok.
> 
> @jld, I understand what you're saying about how your husband meets your anger with strength, and I'm sure that's been the case in my marriage too. But the fact that you're in love means that your marriage can likely withstand a hit to your husband's lovebank (Marriage Builders term for Lovebusters) once in a while if you get angry with him. But Dazed's wife is repeatedly committing lovebusters that I listed above, and Dazed has said he and his wife are probably no longer in love. This can be fixed, but only if the lovebusters are identified and eliminated, and they work to deposit feelings of love by meeting each other's needs. This isn't happening at all.


Jessica, I work from the assumption that whichever partner is not here cannot be relied upon to take responsibility for improving the relationship. My advice is generally geared towards one person taking it upon him or herself to do it.

Saying what Dazed's wife should or should not be doing may not be overly helpful to Dazed, imo. He has little leverage in this situation. I would like to help him gain more, in an ethical way.

Interesting point about my husband's "love bank." @Duguesclin, can you comment on that? 

One thing I know for sure is that his commitment to me is not affected by my behavior. 

Dazed, just a side note here: I think you commented recently in your wife's "bad behavior." I would avoid framing her actions that way if I were you. Seeking to understand why she acts as she does (and you already do this) without judging it may help you avoid developing resentment. Jmho.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

crocus said:


> Actions. Get dinner ready on time and you won't disappoint yourself. Pay attention to her diet and you won't have a problem. Those kind of things.


Well, I can't disagree with that, lol. 

*How* you keep track of everything and manage to get it all done on time is the tricky part of that. 

Clearly, if I got everything done the way it is supposed to get done, I wouldn't disappoint myself (or others), and if I could keep track of what's going on with others at all times, I wouldn't cause as many problems.

Accomplishing those goals, though, is harder than just identifying them. Believe me, I am well aware of all the myriad mistakes and oversights I perpetrate every single day, and the constant feeling of always 'screwing up' has worn me down a lot in recent years. I'm trying to find the balance between cracking the whip on myself to be as productive and effective as is needed, and not beating myself up for failing so often.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Well, I can't disagree with that, lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks. I'm glad you recognize this part. (Do your job, and you won't have a problem)
What steps are you taking to do that?
-cook ahead of time, in large batches and freeze dinners
-consider that a large dinner isn't even really necessary. It's a source of stress for many people. What to make? Rushed. Shopping. During the week a simple soup salad cheese and meat finger foods is perfectly okay. Worst time of day to eat so many calories. Really.
Point is, these situations are just situations. That have solutions. 
A problem is... not having food to eat, a roof over your head, or treatment for an illness. 
If you are breathing in and out, you are more than qualified and capable of finding solutions for situations. A problem may change that, and you may stop breathing in and out. But then it won't really matter anyways. You will be dead.
Perspective. 



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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

crocus said:


> Thanks. I'm glad you recognize this part. (Do your job, and you won't have a problem)


Doesn't everyone recognize that though? I mean, it's clear that, if you are doing your job and living up to everyone's expectations of you, no one will have problems with you. That can be applied to everything in life. If you don't screw things up, or allow things to get screwed up, you won't have problems.



> What steps are you taking to do that?


Whatever steps I can figure out to take, I try to take. 

Some steps are more easily achieved than other steps, and new situations occur on a daily basis. There are always new problems to address, and some of those problems don't lend themselves to easy solutions. At least not for me...



> A problem is... not having food to eat, a roof over your head, or treatment for an illness.


From a survival standpoint, yes. If you are trying to create a life that allows for thriving, that creates additional problems. 

Most people want a life that involves more than just covering those three bases. And, honestly, even those three can be a challenge, especially the last one you mention. We have spent an inordinate amount of time in the last year or two trying to solve that last issue effectively.



> If you are breathing in and out, you are more than qualified and capable of finding solutions for situations.


You seem to be attributing the fact that I fail so often to a lack of will. Is that correct?

I mean, my wife has the same viewpoint, so you're not necessarily wrong, but there is only so much I can do. I have very little time (I'm often sleep deprived as it is, trying to get everything done) and even fewer resources to action a lot of the solutions I might come up with. Most solutions I can come up with require more time and/or resources than I feel like I have. Actioning them will undoubtedly have a negative impact my wife and family, exacerbating some of the already existing resentments and frustrations. I've just got to get to the point that I don't care anymore, I think...


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> Saying what Dazed's wife should or should not be doing may not be overly helpful to Dazed, imo. He has little leverage in this situation. I would like to help him gain more, in an ethical way.


Yeah, I have tried for a long time to give up thinking about or (especially) focusing on what my wife should or should not be doing. I'm mostly successful, but of course there is a lot of room for improvement. I've got to take her at her word that she is doing everything she feels she should and can do and work from there. As with the rest of my life, I have to look at what I can do on my own - nobody else is going to do anything for me, nor should they. 

And the 'ethical' part is tripping me up a lot, I will admit. My often 'Nice Guy' thinking, combined with my shame for failing at being a 'protector and provider'/'a man', makes it hard for me to figure out what is actually ethical/unethical in this situation. I am looking at how to be more 'selfish'/independent/meeting my own needs (especially the need to feel 'safe' and 'secure' in life), but I recognize that doing so might have some steep costs, which is definitely hard to come to terms with when it comes to my son. But I'm getting there.



> Dazed, just a side note here: I think you commented recently in your wife's "bad behavior." I would avoid framing her actions that way if I were you. Seeking to understand why she acts as she does (and you already do this) without judging it may help you avoid developing resentment. Jmho.


Yes. The more I can be non-moralistic regarding what is happening, the more power I have to affect change. Looking at things in terms of 'right' and 'wrong' and 'bad' and 'good' and 'fault/blame' is a crippling point of view.

And that's toughest when it comes to my own self-assessment.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Doesn't everyone recognize that though? I mean, it's clear that, if you are doing your job and living up to everyone's expectations of you, no one will have problems with you. That can be applied to everything in life. If you don't screw things up, or allow things to get screwed up, you won't have problems.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Wow. Perhaps you might be better suited to a job outside the home? Secure childcare and find something you are better qualified for.
You are solidly stuck feeling sorry for yourself and you excuses to back it up. That's a terrible shame, and a waste of your talents. Good luck to you, and I hope you find the comfort you seek.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

crocus said:


> Wow. Perhaps you might be better suited to a job outside the home? Secure childcare and find something you are better qualified for.
> You are solidly stuck feeling sorry for yourself and you excuses to back it up. That's a terrible shame, and a waste of your talents. Good luck to you, and I hope you find the comfort you seek.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Uh, thanks for the pep talk, I think?

For the record, I *do* have a job outside the home. It's just not a full-time career.

And after seven years of not working, and at my age, I'm afraid my qualifications are a bit tenuous when it comes to having a thriving career again. Not that it can't happen, but given what's at stake, I'm trying my damnedest to figure out how to make that happen without either torpedoing my finances, my marriage, my health, or all three. Believe me, if I could find a path, I'd take it. 

And I realize that I haven't yet been able to accomplish any results, so I am left - still - with nothing but excuses, but I also wish I could find advice that goes beyond 'Make it happen! If it's important to you, you'll figure it out!' Which is what everyone says, of course. And while they are not wrong, there are a lot of important things in my life, and just one of me. 

I did warn my wife over the weekend that things between us are probably going to get much more miserable before they get better. I have to make a change, and I don't know that my marriage is going to survive what needs to happen. Which sucks. I wish there was some other way, but I have to start looking out for myself in life. Everyone else is going to have to do the same.


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## crocus (Apr 8, 2016)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Uh, thanks for the pep talk, I think?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You give me far too much credit. I'm not even remotely trying to fix your life, and that's none of my business. Not my job.
Solutions to getting dinner ready, organizing time, individual tasks.
I have a lot of experience with that. 
I need to have food prepared, at all times. My health depends on it. Diabetic for 22 years. I work 50 hrs a week plus commuting. I have a high level of family commitment (elderly parents and a barely adult son who is also diabetic). A unsupportive narcissistic soon to be ex boyfriend.
I live my life to the max. Adventures. Fun. Never waste a day 
It's the small changes one at a time that add up to immense gains. So yeah...I am proof that it can be done, and it doesn't take "willpower " it takes problem solving skills. One at a time. Problem solving. Actions.
So what situation can you pick (just one) and research the various ways to complete it?
What can you try?







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Believe me, if I could find a path, I'd take it.


Thing is, paths aren't found. And if you don't know which direction to take, then you can't really go wrong. Choose something... start somewhere... take action... I wrote about action and resilience the first time I viewed your thread. It's not about having things figured out. It is about progressing with an action. Personally I don't count posting and sharing on TAM as taking action in one's life. It might provide some food for thought but the substance and results follow based on actions.

A simple action could be going to a workshop, seminar, networking event. Reach out to someone for coffee to ask in person what they've learned about the direction they have taken. Often it's these little steps that lead us to new experiences and opportunities. 

Whatever it is, it's the 'action' that is going to propel you forward. Simple steps, a bit at a time.

Without doing anything differently, without trying anything different, it's just treading water. 



As for competing priorities, I'll leave you with the uplifting words of Al Swearengen (Deadwood)

_In life you have to do a lot of things you don't ****ing want to do. Many times, that's what the **** life is... one vile ****ing task after another. But don't get aggravated... then the enemy has you by the short hairs._


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Dazedconfuzed said:


> Uh, thanks for the pep talk, I think?
> 
> For the record, I *do* have a job outside the home. It's just not a full-time career.
> 
> ...


I don't think this is necessary. Sounds completely wrong to me, in fact.

Getting stronger in yourself should only help things between you and your wife.


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## Dazedconfuzed (Mar 20, 2017)

jld said:


> I don't think this is necessary. Sounds completely wrong to me, in fact.
> 
> Getting stronger in yourself should only help things between you and your wife.


It was about the fact that I am going to have to spend time - pobably a lot of time - working on becoming an independent person again, rebuilding my own life, and meeting my own needs. And there may not be a lot to show for it for a while, which will undoubtedly be frustrating for her. I am going to need to be out and about a lot more, and a lot of the domestic stuff will fall by the wayside. Either she is going to have to pick up the slack, or live with it not getting done. While she tells me she supports me in doing what I need to do to feel safe, secure, respected, and happy in life (I did make it clear - hopefully - that I am not stepping out in an attempt to meet my romantic/sexual needs, at least not right off the bat), I'm not entirely sure she fully appreciates the real-world impact of that, and it's likely to build even more resentment, not less.


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