# Do Betrayers Ever Really Change?



## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Do Betrayers Really Ever Change?

First, a disclaimer. This is only my opinion based on living with a serial betrayer and having an alcoholic father and a few friends who have dealt with addictions. I have counseled many people of all walks of life in my many decades. I have respect for betrayers who are here as it just be painful. Lastly, I do understand there are always those 1% exceptions to the rule. I get it.

I have reached the conclusion that people are who they are. Alcoholics recognize that "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic". People can try and change, but they are still who they are. 

For example, an alcoholic may try and not drink again, and maybe through effort and various means of help like AA..., maybe they succeed. But still they are given to drink, want to (albeit suppressed maybe), and have the propensity to drink. It never leaves as it is simply part of who they are. Or for some, who they have become. It is no different with betrayers. The desires, the easy lies that are replace truthfulness... This is also why so many betrayers do so again if not in fact, do so around the edges.

Betrayers have told me and I have read repeatedly that while the first time was the most difficult, the second time was easy and after that it was second nature and easy to fully justify. Hence, the addictive stages. So yhe addictions can be fought, but the betrayer remains the same in essence.

So this is just my opinion and I am giving a Reader's Digest version as I am painfully one letter at a time on my tablet. So watch for the poor spelling.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> Betrayers have told me and I have read repeatedly that while the first time was the most difficult, the second time was easy and after that it was second nature and easy to fully justify. Hence, the addictive stages. So yhe addictions can be fought, but the betrayer remains the same in essence.


:iagree:
To quote a former President, "I did it because 'I can'"


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

The Middleman said:


> :iagree:
> To quote a former President, "I did it because 'I can'"


I believe that if a person is on their death bed and a 100% truth machine is hooked up to them, and they are asked what was the most exciting time of their lives, 99% would have to admit when they betrayed one who trusted them.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

No matter how easy it would be to utter a blanket condemnation, I have to allow it is on a case-by-case basis.

My former WW cheater over 20 years ago. Ended it, never cheated again, and is committed at this day. Having just recently found out, I am bitter, hateful, and full of rage. (Don't start with me on how I know for sure there were no other transgressions. I do, and don't care to discuss it)

Still, I must admit that SOME can change. I think it is the minority, though.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Forest said:


> No matter how easy it would be to utter a blanket condemnation, I have to allow it is on a case-by-case basis.
> 
> My former WW cheater over 20 years ago. Ended it, never cheated again, and is committed at this day. Having just recently found out, I am bitter, hateful, and full of rage. (Don't start with me on how I know for sure there were no other transgressions. I do, and don't care to discuss it)
> 
> Still, I must admit that SOME can change. I think it is the minority, though.


And I respectfully submit betrayers "try" to not let it happen again, and a few are successful but never truly "change"- they simply refrain.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Do Betrayers Really Ever Change
> 
> I betrayed my husband one time...thirty years ago. I have lived these last thirty years totally transparent..I have done everything in my power to rebuild trust, I have lived the last thirty years proving to him that I love him, that I am grateful for his forgiveness...
> I understand that he has given me a gift..and I am eternally grateful.
> ...


First, I applaud your post. 

I have a question. Would you say that during those 30 years there was no way or no circumstances that would have led you to betray again? At all?

I have a coworker who betrayed her husband on a business trip 30 years ago. Since then she hss been faithful, but sorely tempted many times and has kissed ba man, but insists it was friendship in her eyes.

So, just curious.

Not that I don't believe you, I just had the question pop into my head.


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> I have reached the conclusion that people are who they are. Alcoholics recognize that "once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic". People can try and change, but they are still who they are.
> 
> For example, an alcoholic may try and not drink again, and maybe through effort and various means of help like AA..., maybe they succeed. But still they are given to drink, want to (albeit suppressed maybe), and have the propensity to drink. It never leaves as it is simply part of who they are. Or for some, who they have become. It is no different with betrayers. The desires, the easy lies that are replace truthfulness... This is also why so many betrayers do so again if not in fact, do so around the edges.


Um, well, I'm an alcoholic. I just celebrated 20 years sober earlier this year. And though I am just one data point, for me, your description of what a sober alcoholic is like doesn't at all match my lived experience.

After the first year, I really have never had a serious or lasting desire to drink. Sure, every once in a blue moon, I watch a friend have a good single malt and I miss it and am a wee bit jealous. But it is the lightest passing though, it has no teeth. Its done in an instant and leaves no temptation behind it.

What I AM, is grateful. For me, getting sober was an unspeakable blessing--a chance to put down the intolerable burden of lying to myself and those who loved me. A chance to be my true best self again, fully present in the lives of my loved ones, trusted and worthy of trust. Compared to these blessings, drink holds zero temptation.

So I would say your comparison cuts opposite what you might have intended. For some alcoholics, the crisis of hitting bottom, the revulsion at a life of lies, and the desperate reach for the daylight of authentic life free of alcohol lead to a permanent change. What was once an overpowering temptation loses all real attraction. 

Yes, I remain mindful. But realistically, I am never going to drink again, and it is not even a struggle.

Clearly, there are some wayward spouses for whom it is the same. They reject who they were with every fiber of their being, and embrace with gratitude the chance to win back self esteem and to prove themselves deserving to love and be loved.


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## NeverMore (Feb 24, 2013)

Forest said:


> No matter how easy it would be to utter a blanket condemnation, I have to allow it is on a case-by-case basis.
> 
> My former WW cheater over 20 years ago. Ended it, never cheated again, and is committed at this day. Having just recently found out, I am bitter, hateful, and full of rage. (Don't start with me on how I know for sure there were no other transgressions. I do, and don't care to discuss it)
> 
> *Still, I must admit that SOME can change. I think it is the minority, though*.


This. I think that they can change. It's just that few do, since they felt entitled to do it in the first place.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Just like any other behavior, some do, and some don't. The first time is probably the most difficult, because its a major line to cross, then subsequent ones become easier and easier. And also, just like other behaviors, I do believe that the majority do not change. It would take a major, major epiphany.


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## StuckInAL (May 8, 2014)

i belive anyone can change for better or worse. i know i've changed dramatically in the last 7 years; so has my wife.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Beautifully stated Owl, its rare for me to be pleasantly surprised here in CWI, but you did just that and I thank you. My father has been sober since 1994, like you, he was able to shift his perspective.

That actually brings me to my point. Humans are more than the sum of their actions. We are capable of learning from life and adjusting our behavior to match those lessons. Our ability to shift our perspective through mindfulness and cognitive interpersonal work allows us to literally rewire our own brains. The plasticity of the brain is remarkable.

The person mentioned by the OP is a classic example of correlation and causation being separate issues. Even if we accept the OPs assertion that the person in question really has been tempted for 30 years, what has stopped that person from acting on the temptation that whole time? 

Hardly seems plausible, but even if we assume this person really has been faithful for 30 years, the way the OP describes her makes me think the initial infidelity was either undiscovered and undisclosed, or rug swept. 

If the issue had been properly addressed when it occurred, the pathology of that breakdown would be known, and steps would have been taken to shift perspective away from "it was fun and exciting and I wish I could do it again" to "that was dysfunctional and I debased myself and my family, and whatever marginal satisfaction I got from my affair is trumped by even the worst day I spent with my spouse." It takes work and effort, but the rewards are worth it.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

I think at its root, infidelity (and any other form of betrayal) is a result of extreme selfishness.

Can it be changed?

A great question.

Is the selfishness more a function of character/personality or a matter of age?

This is an important thing I would look at or consider.

Many immature young people behave selfishly, but it is something the can possibly grow out of...in some ways their character is still in flux.

Older people who are selfish seem to change less...their personality is more of a permanent condition.

So, I guess i would generalize (and any such statement has to be given with the caveat that there will always be exceptions) that a young cheater MAY open their eyes to the damage their actions have caused, and they might as a result make a lasting change to who they are.

An older cheater is far more likely to remain a basically selfish person...at this point in their lives, it is much less likely they will have an epiphany and fundamentally change who they are.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

I used to work with homeless and incarcerated people. Betrayers are, in a sense, criminals. They commit, per the Bible, a capitol offense and to me beayal is the single greatest act of cowardice and selfishness in all of humanity and it truly defines who a person really is. When I counseled with those folks I realized they were more capable of committing the same crimes as ever- and would do so much more easily as they have done so before and survived. So change? 99% not. They simply are able to refrain from reoffending to some varying degree. 

But for those who feek they have truly "changed" and have been able to walk the straight & narrow, I tip my hat. I really do.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

I think betrayers that change, change because, they are truly remorseful, and they have "learned a real nasty lesson in life," of their own personal growth, selfishness, and their world around them. 

The ones that don't, it "wasn't one of their nasty lessons," so they aren't to change. Imho.

-sammy


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Sin is sin...you are certainly correct...does god judge adulterers any differently than he judges murderers? I don't know...I will leave it up to him.
> When I said I committed adultery one time..I mean one time...one man...one day...one sexual encounter.
> 
> Have you ever committed adultery? It is easy to make assumptions about others when we think we know what they are thinking...I find I don't know others people thoughts, or situations.....and even if I did...we all react differently.
> ...


No I have not. It isn't within me to do so. It just isn't. It may be me, but I haven't what it takes to betray a human or marriage or family and cause that kind of pain. I just don't. 

No offense intended. And I mean that.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I believe you...none was taken. Others here have tried to second guess me many times. I know who I am..I know what I have done..I own it....
> 
> We have had a good life..in spite of what I have done. I owe it all to my husband...he..unlike me...never gave up on us. He remained steadfast and diligent. He loved me in spite of myself.
> 
> I am eternally grateful to him.


People change, if they are willing to. It doesn't matter who 2ndguesses you as long as Mr JA doesn't.


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## StuckInAL (May 8, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I believe you...none was taken. Others here have tried to second guess me many times. I know who I am..I know what I have done..I own it....
> 
> We have had a good life..in spite of what I have done. I owe it all to my husband...he..unlike me...never gave up on us. He remained steadfast and diligent. He loved me in spite of myself.
> 
> I am eternally grateful to him.


this sounds pretty close to my situation. my wife had totally checked out and i just wouldn't give up. i realized that the woman i knew ceased to exist somewhere during the first stage of our marriage...but a year or so of MC and some really serious looking at our life/marraige/etc and (seven years post R) a better one has taken her place.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I believe you...none was taken. Others here have tried to second guess me many times. I know who I am..I know what I have done..I own it....
> 
> We have had a good life..in spite of what I have done. I owe it all to my husband...he..unlike me...never gave up on us. He remained steadfast and diligent. He loved me in spite of myself.
> 
> I am eternally grateful to him.


That is a wonderful post.


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## owl6118 (Jan 30, 2014)

Paladin said:


> My father has been sober since 1994, like you, he was able to shift his perspective.


I salute him brother to brother. Who knows, perhaps the Class of 1994 was a good year for sobriety! I congratulate him on his 20.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

To me this is another way to ask will they cheat again and of course the scientific, well researched, best educated guess is
MAYBE some do some don't.
Your dog bites you he may never bite you again but you will live with the doubt and if he will bite you again no matter how much that tail wags. 
Ever, never, forever are blanket absolute words that hardly fit each person, marriage or space in time there are no absolutes there is today and living with the damage from yesterday hoping it goes away tomorrow.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

I said this in another thread a few moments ago...

I submit that not all those who have betrayed are betray*ers*. We are what we do *habitually*.

As for serial cheaters? Unfortunately, the vast majority of them will probably never change.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> I said this in another thread a few moments ago...
> 
> I submit that not all those who have betrayed are betray*ers*. We are what we do *habitually*.
> 
> As for serial cheaters? Unfortunately, the vast majority of them will probably never change.


Well said, Gus. Anyone can cheat given the right circumstances, even those of us who swear up and down that it simply isn't in our makeup. If you are one and done it does not make you a cheater, simply someone who can and has cheated.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> I said this in another thread a few moments ago...
> 
> I submit that not all those who have betrayed are betray*ers*. We are what we do *habitually*.
> 
> As for serial cheaters? Unfortunately, the vast majority of them will probably never change.


I disagree.

When one considers what it takes for a person to openly betray their spouse and totally abuse love, faith and trust from their spouse and children and with complete disrespect for their marriage, then one realizes that it is not something done lightly. I submit it takes a very specific type of person to do that and it demonstrates what is in their heart.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> It demonstrates what was in their heart for that period of time...not what was in their heart before...or after.
> 
> What was in my heart during the infidelity? pure selfishness....thinking only of me, my feeling, my ego, my wants, my desires....
> 
> ...


I guess what I am trying to say is this....

People either do or do not commit a betrayal. 

People either can or cannot. 

Those who can, do so even if only once in reality. Those who cannot, will not. 

Those who can and do, but are able to refrain from doing so again are to be applauded, but they still have the makeup to do so as they have proven so.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> and the point i am trying to make is...it is possible that we ALL can do it....every single person...because each of us is born with a will...each of us is born with a choice....each of us are born with flaws.
> 
> You are saying that those of us who cheat have some kind of genetic makeup that allows us to do so and those of you who do not cheat do not have it....and I say bullshlt.
> 
> ...


I agree with some of what you are saying, but still think you are mistaken. 

Yes we all sin. But that doesn't mean the same sin for all. The sin I may do could be something you would never ever do. And visa versa.

My current wife was in a sexless marriage in her late 20's and is a very sexual woman. She had many opportunities to be an adultress but the thought of doing so was never even considered for a moment. My first wife was running around on me and I had propositions from a couple of very nice women. I was repulsed. 

Again, some can and some cannot.

Let us agree to disagree with respect. You seem like a wonderful person and I am warmed that you and your husband have done so very well. It is a testament for good and should serve as an inspiration. I know it does for me.


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## Philat (Sep 12, 2013)

thatbpguy said:


> I guess what I am trying to say is this....
> 
> People either do or do not commit a betrayal.
> 
> ...


Everyone on this earth can. Not everyone does. Some do habitually, others one time only. The "ability to cheat" is not a gene that some have and some do not. 

To the alcoholic analogy: An alcoholic is like a serial cheater, IMO, in that both display self-destructive habitual and arguably chemically-dependent behavior. When an alcoholic is drinking he/she is a drunk; when a serial cheater is in an affair he/she is an adulterer. Both can recover. A recovered alcoholic may still be an alcoholic based on past behavior patterns, but is no longer a drunk. A reformed serial cheater may still be a cheater based on past behavior patterns, but is no longer an adulterer.

Someone who goes off on a one-time bender is not thereby an alcoholic, and someone who has a ONS is not thereby a cheater by nature. The former got drunk, the latter committed adultery. Neither case is evidence for a propensity to engage in these behaviors repeatedly.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Some people betray because of a series of circumstances that come together, others because they are broken, others because they like the idea of betraying their partner.

Betrayal, there is no one size fits all definition.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Betrayal, there is no one size fits all definition.


True. 

However, some people can and do and other won't and don't despite various dispositions and circumstances.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

I was the OM to my OM. I'm the root cause of the OMW filing for D. It wasn't love or lust that guided me. It was pure vengeance. What does that make me? What does that make the OMW?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> My current wife was in a sexless marriage in her late 20's and is a very sexual woman. *She had many opportunities to be an adultress but the thought of doing so was never even considered for a moment.*


You'd be a naive fool to believe this. She almost definitely considered it, even if she _immediately_ rejected the notion due to her sense of morality. Either way, I commend the both of you for your restraint.

_Anyone_, given the "right" set of circumstances, could conceivably engage in adulterous behavior. For many it just doesn't take quite as much for them to jump into that boat. For others it takes much, much more.

OP, I believe that you're allowing the pain intrinsic to infidelity as a BS to color your opinions in this regard in a very "black and white" kind of way. That's certainly understandable, but this, IMO, is ultimately a very flawed way of thinking, as it doesn't allow any room for the countless subtleties that exist within any relationship -- most especially a marriage.

MJA, there are degrees of betrayal and, consequently, degrees of hurt. But who hurts more? The husband who catches his wife in EAs? The husband whose wife has a ONS and then confesses? The wife whose husband engages in multiple affairs (EAs, PAs, LTRs, etc) over the course of several years and only "confesses" once caught? The wife whose husband spends several years in a purely physical relationship w/ another woman? The person who catches his or her spouse in a homosexual relationship w/ another person? The husband whose wife spends several years (WARNING! LOLs ahead...) "escorting" everything from other men, other women, small kitchen appliances, dwarves, clowns, and the family dog into her birth canal?

Different people will be able to forgive different things but the threshold will almost always be the relative degree of pain (and disrespect) involved. Some people are just able and/or willing to deal w/ more of the sh*t sandwich than others.

Then again, some people -- quite honestly -- are just doormats.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> You'd be a naive fool to believe this. She almost definitely considered it, even if she _immediately_ rejected the notion due to her sense of morality. Either way, I commend the both of you for your restraint.


First, please don't presume what my wife thinks or does. You don't know her. We had extensive talks on this and she is not the "type" that would betray like this.

And neither am I. Period.

I have my faults, sins, and vices, but betrayal isn't among them. I leave that to others.


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## Miss Taken (Aug 18, 2012)

It's not a popular opinion it seems but I think that people can change and do change. I don't think that someone who is remorseful or reformed for any one bad action should have to be forever wearing a scarlett letter for the rest of their life.

Case in point, myself. The spring my mom passed away when I was thirteen, I went off the rails for a bit. I was delinquent, skipped school, hung around with the wrong crowds, ran away, did drugs, drank booze and committed some petty crime like mischief and vandalism of property. Well, one night I was with a girl that decided to break into cars and steal. I wasn't stealing but did stand watch. We were both arrested.

At the police station, I didn't want to "rat out" my friend for being the one to steal. Naively, I expected some honour among thieves and assumed she'd own up to being the one that actually stole. So while I didn't point the finger at myself, I didn't point it at her because I expected her to tell the truth. Well, she didn't. She said it was me. So I spent the entire summer in a youth detention center as a result and she got probation.

While I was not a thief; by all means, I WAS a juvenile delinquent. However, I did not remain a juvenile delinquent. At the end of August, when I was allowed to go home, I went back to school, got into grief counseling, stopped hanging out with the wrong crowd. I earned straight A's, joined a theatre group, was trusted to pet-sit for people when they went away to earn extra money, and did other odd jobs for them. Then later got a job at a burger chain.

I am a law abiding citizen. Ironically, I went to college to study legal administration, graduated with honours and have worked as a law clerk for the Federal Attorney's office (like the US's DA's office) to help prosecute crime. I do not think of myself as a criminal or know anybody that does. People can and do change.

I try to meet people where they are right now, not just where they've been. I think a world where we are all labeled forever for the bad choices and mistakes we made but not considered as a whole, and as the sum of all of those choices, would be a really sh!tty place to live in.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> First, please don't presume what my wife thinks or does. You don't know her. We had extensive talks on this and she is not the "type" that would betray like this.
> 
> And neither am I. Period.
> 
> I have my faults, sins, and vices, but betrayal isn't among them. I leave that to others.


Apologies. I certainly meant no offense.

With regard to being or not being the type to cheat, everyone is tempted from time to time. What we're talking about is a person's ability -- due to his or her character -- to completely shut down any such thoughts when they arise. But that initial morsel of thought will always occur -- _even if only at a very base level_ -- when such opportunities present themselves.

Again, I meant no offense, and I commend the both of you for your restraint.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

WhiteRaven said:


> I was the OM to my OM. I'm the root cause of the OMW filing for D. It wasn't love or lust that guided me. It was pure vengeance. What does that make me? What does that make the OMW?


It makes you interesting.

We often hear about beating the hell out of the OM. Eye for an eye.

Honestly I probably would have considered doing this at one point. My exWW's OM#1 was divorced. 

My exWW simultaneously had an EA (at least) with my former best friend. I exposed that part, encouraged her to D him, and she did. We (former friend's exW and me) are still good friends because of their stupidity.

Life is about learning. We learn when we pass through the tough times. We learn to be better and stronger. We learn wrong and right. Death of loved ones and betrayal are two of my best teachers. Maybe you taught the OM a valuable lesson. He should be grateful for his new understanding. 

Move ahead. If you feel guilty, repent by living better.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Lovemytruck said:


> It makes you interesting.
> 
> Maybe you taught the OM a valuable lesson. He should be grateful for his new understanding.


My WW was his 8th AP. I sometimes wonder among all those guys was I the only one crazy enough to fk his life up? 

He's in IC. Poor a-hole can't believe his wife could do that to him. Mea culpa


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Apologies. I certainly meant no offense.


Thank you. I knew you didn't.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Miss Taken said:


> It's not a popular opinion it seems but I think that people can change and do change. I don't think that someone who is remorseful or reformed for any one bad action should have to be forever wearing a scarlett letter for the rest of their life.
> 
> Case in point, myself. The spring my mom passed away when I was thirteen, I went off the rails for a bit. I was delinquent, skipped school, hung around with the wrong crowds, ran away, did drugs, drank booze and committed some petty crime like mischief and vandalism of property. Well, one night I was with a girl that decided to break into cars and steal. I wasn't stealing but did stand watch. We were both arrested.
> 
> ...


Point well taken. I do think young teens can change behavior patterns as they become adults.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

WhiteRaven said:


> My WW was his 8th AP. I sometimes wonder among all those guys was I the only one crazy enough to fk his life up?
> 
> He's in IC. Poor a-hole can't believe his wife could do that to him. Mea culpa


Not a thread-jack. This is a case-in-point for the thread title. :lol:

Do betrayers ever really change?

We certainly hope this one discussed in the quote has changed. We hope WhiteRaven's WW has changed. I hope my exWW has changed. I hope my former best friend has changed. Harsh consequences/punishments are good starting points for change.

Change is often necessary for survival.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

thatbpguy said:


> I believe that if a person is on their death bed and a 100% truth machine is hooked up to them, and they are asked what was the most exciting time of their lives, 99% would have to admit when they betrayed one who trusted them.


I believe that the only way to know for sure that betrayers have changed, is when they're on their death bed - and haven't cheated again up to that point.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

I don't like to frame the issue of cheating in a religious bent, although all major religions frown on it.

I see it as a moral issue and an impulse control issue though.

People that willfully violate the vow they took to be faithful have a selfish attitude that goes beyond the infidelity.

A few realize that their behavior is destructive and self destructive, yet they continue to cheat. Do they figure that since they've already messed up, maybe they should just keep "enjoying themselves"?

My ex-wife says she was filled with self loathing for doing it, but couldn't stop herself.

"couldn't"

What I really think was happening is that she couldn't bring herself to be honest so she made a stab at what she thought I needed to hear.

To summarize, I think a lot of cheaters still want to cheat and do, others still want to and curb their behavior. Yet another group, I think the smallest group, has no further appetite for harming their spouse or to cheat.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

michzz said:


> To summarize, I think a lot of cheaters still want to cheat and do, others still want to and curb their behavior. Yet another group, I think the smallest group, has no further appetite for harming their spouse or to cheat.


It's been an interesting debate and I hope I have not offended anyone. It was certainly not my intent.

For the most part, I agree with michzz here- although he is summarizing in a more limited sense than I might the point is indeed similar. 

It's either/or the desire/ability/propensity to betray. NOT that it happens more than once, but rather betrayers who do so never fully lose (and again, maybe for that 1%) that propensity as they have demonstraed it is a part of their core personality. Some rise above and can master their propensities. Some cannot. 

Either way, thanks for playing. There will be tuna salad and bus tokens in the lobby on your way home.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> But you can presume what I think...and why are you so convinced there is a "type" of person that cheats?


If I give that impression then I apologize. I felt I was merely stating my opinion.



Mrs. John Adams said:


> I am NOT that type of person...don't you see?


Perhaps I misstated myself. There is no "type" of person who betrays. It's more I am trying to opine that people who have shown the capacity to betray are those who have that propensity similar to alcoholics to drink. 



Mrs. John Adams said:


> The person I betrayed more than anyone else was...ME!!!!!


Interesting point. I wonder how many betrayers feel that same way? To me, I would think the person who is hurt the most is the one betrays the most is the one who loves you and trusts you. 



Mrs. John Adams said:


> ...if i could do this...Anyone can! This behavior was so very out of character for me...I would have bet my children's lives I would NEVER commit adultery...and guess what i did? I almost sacrificed my blessed children!!!! I almost lost EVERYTHING...don't you see?


I do see, indeed. And I don’t mean to hurt you or insult your integrity, but why do people with every reason to betray not even consider it unless they have a natural propensity to do so? Even if under stress? Both my wife and I in our first marriages could have easily justified betrayal as well as any people ever, but neither of us even so much as considered it. 



Mrs. John Adams said:


> Why is this so hard for you to imagine? Why do you think that my moral makeup is lower than yours simply because i used poor judgement and became selfish for a very short time in my life...when the rest of my 59 years i have never exemplified that kind of behavior?


Let me make this clear… I have never meant to even suggest your moral makeup is lower than mine or anyone else's. "For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". What I was trying to get across is that we are all "sinners" and given to sin, but for some that form of sin is to betray. For others it is to drink. Others for drugs. Others for eating, or porn, or anger...



Mrs. John Adams said:


> I do respect your opinion...but I am trying so hard to give you a glimpse inside my soul...so many here have been betrayed and are hurting...i just want you all to know that sometimes...it really was not because we are bad...we just did a bad thing...and we were not thinking about hurting you....we were only thinking of ourselves...and sometimes we can be oh so very sorry for what we have done to you. I understand when you lash out because it just isn't fair damn it! You did not ask for this....and we would do anything if we could just undo what we did.
> 
> I never meant to hurt anyone...it isn't in my nature....and i am not some genetic freak simply because i did a terrible thing.


I was never meaning to insult you or hurt you. I was never signaling you out either. I am just stating that after my decades of experience in the ways that I have counseled and been exposed to people in so many ways it is simply my opinion that, with rare exceptions, people who have the capacity to, and in fact do, betray always retain that capacity even if they never do again betray again. 

So, again, if I have hurt your feelings or insulted you in ANY way, please accept my sincere apology.


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

So just because someone got drunk once they will always be a drunkard?


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

the2ofus said:


> So just because someone got drunk once they will always be a drunkard?


True. But they strike me as being more likely to than a non drinker.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

My ex-husband cheated 30 years ago. He swore he would never cheat again and I believed him and didn't divorce him. But a couple of years ago, he cheated again with the same affair partner. And I decided to divorce him. 

He was the least likely person I could imagine cheating. In his defense, I believe it's likely she pursued him but that doesn't change the fact that he blew up our marriage. He didn't want a divorce. I didn't want a two-time cheater.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams, you are a kind and gracious woman. And that has come through in all your posts.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

I was cheated on the very first day I had sex. Gives a 19 year old the impression that's the way it is. 

And it was, for the next 20 years of my life. I've been cheated on in ALL my LTRs, including the current one. It only took her 4 months to cheat on me. 

But it never will happen again. That's called character development.


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

Maybe the non-drinker just hasn't been given the chance, maybe they were afraid they would get caught. Maybe just maybe the guy who got drunk realized he really doesn't ever want to do that again, and has absolutely no desire to ever do that again.


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

thatbpguy said:


> Mrs. John Adams, you are a kind and gracious woman. And that has come through in all your posts.


She is isn't she!


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## treyvion (Apr 29, 2013)

doubletrouble said:


> I was cheated on the very first day I had sex. Gives a 19 year old the impression that's the way it is.
> 
> And it was, for the next 20 years of my life. I've been cheated on in ALL my LTRs, including the current one. It only took her 4 months to cheat on me.
> 
> But it never will happen again. That's called character development.


How can you prevent from being cheated on?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Folks, OP has expressed his _opinions_ here. And, just like the rest of us, he is entitled to his opinions.

And to be wrong.

Again, any of us could cheat. If you honestly don't believe this... well, I won't go there.

I've been on the receiving end of the pain that infidelity can cause, so I know how rough it is. To say that "it sucks" would be a vast understatement. You might as well say the same of a dagger to the heart.

Even still, if you were to put me in the right setting, get me just drunk enough, throw the right woman at me (I'm not even talking about looks alone here, as she'd have to be sooooo much more than just a pretty face or have a nice body, etc), and I were unhappy enough w/ my wife/marriage (as admittedly fleeting as that might be), boundaries could start to come down and then, yeah... it could happen.

So, armed w/ this knowledge, what do we do about this? Well, we don't put ourselves in these situations. We recognize the notion that we are fallible beings, and we actively avoid scenarios in which we could conceivable cheat. Does this self-knowledge make me somehow less than someone who doesn't recognize this about themselves?

If you are a person of conscience, when you lie, steal, betray, murder, or whatever, then yes, you have betrayed yourself first and foremost. And yes, you've also betrayed those against which you have perpetrated these acts. In the case of marital infidelity, you have betrayed your spouse. And, while the BS will no doubt bear the brunt of the deluge of pain to come, there is plenty to go around.

Now, if we're talking about the remorseless, serial cheater folks... Well come on, you're talking about an altogether different class of cheater there, and I'd say that the vast majority of them are either unwilling or unable (or both) to change.


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## Lovemytruck (Jul 3, 2012)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> I do respect your opinion...but I am trying so hard to give you a glimpse inside my soul...so many here have been betrayed and are hurting...i just want you all to know that sometimes...it really was not because we are bad...we just did a bad thing..and we were not thinking about hurting you....we were only thinking of ourselves...and sometimes we can be oh so very sorry for what we have done to you. I understand when you lash out because it just isn't fair damn it! You did not ask for this....and we would do anything if we could just undo what we did.
> 
> I never meant to hurt anyone..it isn't in my nature....and i am not some genetic freak simply because i did a terrible thing.


Good point. It seems there are as many shades of gray in those who cheat as in any group. Sort of like being honest. Most of us tell "white" lies. Some are habitual liars, some are fraudulent and criminal.

Most of us "check-out" a sexy person of the opposite sex. Some flirt. Some tease. Some have EAs. Some have ONSs, some are serial cheaters, etc.

I do believe you are a one and done type of person (Mrs. John Adams). It seems many of us learn from our bad choices. Some don't.

This was an enjoyable day of thread reading for me. Good thoughts from many posts. I admire anyone who is courageous enough to discuss their flaws for the benefit of others.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

My ex-WS is a serial cheater. Even though - to my knowledge - she has had many years of inactivity, there is something in her make-up, a need, an itch that can't be scratched - whatever it is. To my mind it will always be present and given the right circumstances will happen again. It's a deeply addictive experience to cheat.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

What I have never understood is why the chronic or serial cheater doesn't just be a single person--free to have sex with any other single that will have them?

Why do they have to drag someone along for the ride who doesn't want that?


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

michzz said:


> What I have never understood is why the chronic or serial cheater doesn't just be a single person--free to have sex with any other single that will have them?
> 
> Why do they have to drag someone along for the ride who doesn't want that?


The illicit nature of affair sex adds a significant element of addiction to the overall experience, at least when compared to "just" sex. Serial cheaters will continue to chase that high.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Folks, OP has expressed his _opinions_ here. And, just like the rest of us, he is entitled to his opinions.
> 
> And to be wrong.
> 
> ...


But that isn't always so. My EA nearly PA was not pretty, well, nowhere near as pretty as my wife, and she didn't really have a great body, either.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

A few observations if I may.

MJA; thank you for putting your heart in these beautiful posts - they nearly made me cry, that doesn't happen often. 

Having said that, I think you are the type of person ... no, JK - you are one of those very rare fWS who truly had the desire to change because you realized the magnitude of your actions. We meet some of you here, I can think of a handfull, but there are so many other WS out there who just doesn't get it - untill they are on the receiving end them selves. 

Did your husbands affair have anything to do with your realizations, change of heart (in lack of better words) and desire to rebuild something stronger?

People with your attitude; I have no problem forgiving them, it is so obvious that you learned something from your experience. I respect that very much. I also know for a fact, though, that there are plenty of people out there who didn't learn anything but to be more carefull the next time. 'Nuf said. 

I would like to put my 2 cents out there regarding the OP. I think its selfevident that everybody are capable of having a ONS or an affair. It's so easy, that's what I've heard at least. It's just a matter of desire, opportunity and then making the choice to cheat. Easy. What is also selfevident is that not everyone make that choice - and that's what separates those who cheat from those who don't. Some people think it's an option to betray, even if it's some subconcious belief burried deep down within - something in their core tells them it's OK to cheat, admitted or not. If this belief had not been there, they wouldn't have cheated, because most people know very well that it's wrong to betray your spouse.

From my experience with my wife, there are two beliefs that made it OK for her to cheat disregarded the wrongness of it (just to simplify). 
1. she generally believes that she should have all the best from life, not miss out on anything (entitlement I suppose) - life should be all fun, and we were young when we met. This is also very much about opportunity - can she turn an offer down the next time?
This belief we don't share - I'm happy about the things and experiences life has offered me, I appreciate it (leave out infidelity).

2. she says that I wasn't supposed to know about it... had I not busted her bubble, the affair would have fizzled out within the next 4 months, and she would have returned to our happy marriage again - those were her words (OM was about to move). She also said that she did not consider for one moment that the fallout would be as devastating as it turned out to be.
The core belief underlying this statement is, that as long as noone knows, noone gets hurt, so it's OK to betray other people. Many waywards subscribe to this philosophy from what I've read.
I don't share this belief at all. I believe in doing the right thing, even when noone is around, and noone watches.

For the record, she has stated that she won't do it again. So where does that leave us? I would say that as long as she holds these beliefs, she's more likely to cheat than people who don't hold these beliefs - just a matter of choice to act on these beliefs. 

I still call her out on this line of thinking from time to time - not related to infidelity, but in general. But she puts in some effort to change this thinking pattern, at least that's what I sense.

Just to be clear, I've had the opportunity to cheat myself at least three times, all I had to do was say "let's go" - and I would've been there myself. Well, I didn't. I thought of my wife and everything we had together, that I wanted to grow old with her, and that I didn't want to replace her - a fling wouldn't be worth it.

Lastly: People change their beliefs if they need to or really want to. Some people do and some don't. It really is that simple.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Folks, OP has expressed his _opinions_ here. And, just like the rest of us, he is entitled to his opinions.
> 
> And to be wrong.
> 
> ...


I think the last bolded is very true, I would feel that way, MJA feels that way - but do you think that the majority of betrayers feel that way? To the core?


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

Lovemytruck said:


> Good point. It seems there are as many shades of gray in those who cheat as in any group. Sort of like being honest. Most of us tell "white" lies. Some are habitual liars, some are fraudulent and criminal.
> 
> Most of us "check-out" a sexy person of the opposite sex. Some flirt. Some tease. Some have EAs. Some have ONSs, some are serial cheaters, etc.
> 
> ...



Mrs. JA is simply a good soul. She just is. She is living proof that people can make poor choices, or a poor choice, and spend the rest of their life (She's got 30+ years in thus far) doing everything humanly possible to make amends to the one she betrayed. These are "amends" that she owes to her husband. Spending a day of her vacation, pouring her heart out on TAM, to others, who may or may not have her best interest in mind; trying to help by responding to these posts, she does not.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> But that isn't always so. My EA nearly PA was not pretty, well, nowhere near as pretty as my wife, and she didn't really have a great body, either.


MM, I think that I didn't explain what I was thinking very well... What I was trying to say is that it would take much more than just a pretty face and/or nice body to get me to go there. I'd have to feel a genuine connection to the woman. That would actually be more important to me than looks (face and/or body) alone.

And don't forget, many or all of the other outliers that I mentioned would likely have to be there as well, including me being _drunk as f*ck_.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

cpacan said:


> I think the last bolded is very true, I would feel that way, MJA feels that way - but do you think that the majority of betrayers feel that way? To the core?


Hard to say. Many likely couldn't be bothered to care at all w/ respect to who they have or haven't betrayed, disrespected, etc, and likely wouldn't view the fact that they've engaged in such behavior as betraying themselves at all. In fact, I'd think that their feelings in that regard would be quite the opposite -- they did it because they wanted to do it, and felt entitled to do it.

Notice that I said _many_. Not most. Not all.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

cpacan said:


> From my experience with my wife, there are two beliefs that made it OK for her to cheat disregarded the wrongness of it (just to simplify).
> 1. *she generally believes that she should have all the best from life, not miss out on anything (entitlement I suppose) - life should be all fun, and we were young when we met. This is also very much about opportunity - can she turn an offer down the next time?*
> This belief we don't share - I'm happy about the things and experiences life has offered me, I appreciate it (leave out infidelity).


Uhhh... Yes, this is most definitely a sense of entitlement. Wow.



cpacan said:


> 2. she says that I wasn't supposed to know about it... had I not busted her bubble, the affair would have fizzled out within the next 4 months, and she would have returned to our happy marriage again - those were her words (OM was about to move). She also said that she did not consider for one moment that the fallout would be as devastating as it turned out to be.
> The core belief underlying this statement is, that as long as noone knows, noone gets hurt, so it's OK to betray other people. Many waywards subscribe to this philosophy from what I've read.
> I don't share this belief at all. I believe in doing the right thing, even when noone is around, and noone watches.


Do you live in China? I only ask because _you are surrounded by red flags_.



cpacan said:


> For the record, she has stated that she won't do it again.


Oh. Well I guess that's good... right? LOL



cpacan said:


> So where does that leave us? I would say that as long as she holds these beliefs, *she's more likely to cheat than people who don't hold these beliefs* - just a matter of choice to act on these beliefs.


Yes. Absolutely.



cpacan said:


> I still call her out on this line of thinking from time to time - not related to infidelity, but in general. But she puts in some effort to change this thinking pattern, at least that's what I sense.


Good luck w/ this. Honestly, your wife doesn't sound remorseful. At all.



cpacan said:


> Just to be clear, I've had the opportunity to cheat myself at least three times, all I had to do was say "let's go" - and I would've been there myself. Well, I didn't. I thought of my wife and everything we had together, that I wanted to grow old with her, and that I didn't want to replace her - a fling wouldn't be worth it.


Solid thinking. I commend you for your integrity, sir.



cpacan said:


> Lastly: People change their beliefs if they need to or really want to. Some people do and some don't. It really is that simple.


Agreed!


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Depends. Some change into who they really are when they cheat.

Others, however, the cheating is the change. It is not who they are. If you look at an EI or Mrs A, they went back to who they always were.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

I think a lot depends on the cheater and how happy they are when they return to the marriage, or relationship, or what ever new relationship they find themselves in. They too have learned A LOT, like we the BS has.

I think of it like extreme sports. Terrified to do something... but once one take that jump, one feel the danger, then the thrill... & then reflect back on all the "what if's." One did it once, and if survived, learned what to do, what not to do, how to do it, how to be better prepare, and know what to expect. 

That why is it's soooo much easier to do it again, and maybe why it seems cheaters dont change, and also leads me to believe, it all depends on the relationship that the ww has going forward... imho

-sammy


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## doublep (May 9, 2014)

Change? Hmmm... I don't know.

SOme here know my story. I have been tempted for 26 years. I have had chance after chance to cheat on my wife but because I love her so much, I would have taken my own life before I dishonored her.

Then, recently, I found out she had an EA through an online game. No names, physical contact, video, just talking.... Sexual talking with another man. It is not any less dishonoring to me. The pain of that still echos in my head. I forgave her for many reasons, including I do think she is sick from PTSD and Depression.

Yet.... The betrayal is hard to take and the trust is not there at all. In 26 years she has never done anything even remotely to this. She apologizes and said she would spend the rest of her life making it up to me.... Yet.... I can't get over the thought if she could talk that way with another man, what else can she do and will she do again?


I don't know.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

That is a tough one, doublep (I like the first part of your name, ha ha). A meaningful EA is hard to overcome, as is any betrayal. Your spouse needs to really pull torque with you in order to help heal you. And we do heal, but scars do remain.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

It would be interesting to see some research on this subject. 

IT is possible that certain types of betrayers don't see themselves that way. For example, the type who keeps lots of opposite sex friends and doesn't have proper boundaries for them.

I've here on TAM and elsewhere, a few savvy men who say that they will absolutely not date a woman who has close male friendships. 

A woman who is in an exclusive relationship with one man and has a "close" friendship with another ie, they go out one on one and start prioritising one another, may never see herself as a betrayer. 

Unless she loses her primary relationship and truly regrets the loss, she will not see herself a betrayer and most likely will not change.

And in general, I can't imagine any type of betrayer changing their ways unless they felt the loss or the very real threat of loss of a relationship that they _emotionally_ valued.

I say emotionally because if they are only sorry because they lost a certain living standard that came with the person that they betrayed, it is less likely that they have changed.


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## doublep (May 9, 2014)

doubletrouble said:


> That is a tough one, doublep (I like the first part of your name, ha ha). A meaningful EA is hard to overcome, as is any betrayal. Your spouse needs to really pull torque with you in order to help heal you. And we do heal, but scars do remain.


Well, I won't get into all the details as they are in another thread but I stayed and forgave because I do think she suffers from PTSD and Depression. When I confronted her and was ready to move on she freaked out... Apologized, cried and could not believe what she had done, etc.... She spent 2-3 days just crying and apologizing....

Non the less... I have a hard time every.... Single... Day. If they can do it once, they can do it again. Yes, mine wasn't a PA or an EA where love messages where exchanged but sexual talk was exchanged between them and that is just as damaging to me.

I guess what I am trying to say is if you can do it once, you can do it again and that is where my trust issues now come into play.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> It would be interesting to see some research on this subject.


There are studies stating betrayals are an addictive "behavior". I've posted at least one here before.

But it is a very complex area. And, as I have previously stated, not all betrayers are alike. I have been speaking in general terms for the majority.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> and the point i am trying to make is...it is possible that we ALL can do it....every single person...because each of us is born with a will...each of us is born with a choice....each of us are born with flaws.
> 
> You are saying that those of us who cheat have some kind of genetic makeup that allows us to do so and those of you who do not cheat do not have it....and I say bullshlt.
> 
> ...


Just because a person has the ability does not mean they ate capable. Moral convictions will not allow me to commit adultery against my wife. Unless you are the type of person who is willin g to cast away morals the temptation is not there. I love my wife, I do not have to enforce a boundary as I do not look at another woman with that in my mind. If you feel you are capable of it I would be guarded in my marriage. Adultry is an embracing of evil and direct sin against God himself and a desecration of the marriage covenant established by him. To me the act is so heinous it ranks just under child mollestion and just over murder. I am capable of killing but not murder, which is killing of an innocent person. OM/OW are NOT innocent unless they did not know your spouse was married. I believe adultery should still be felonies in every state with minimum 6 mo sentences. If a BS killed or severely injured a BS or OM/OW I could not rightly say guilty as a jury member. The WS should have to do the time in a case where OM/OW is killed by BS.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

Divinely Favored said:


> Just because a person has the ability does not mean they ate capable. Moral convictions will not allow me to commit adultery against my wife. Unless you are the type of person who is willin g to cast away morals the temptation is not there. I love my wife, I do not have to enforce a boundary as I do not look at another woman with that in my mind. If you feel you are capable of it I would be guarded in my marriage. Adultry is an embracing of evil and direct sin against God himself and a desecration of the marriage covenant established by him. To me the act is so heinous it ranks just under child mollestion and just over murder. I am capable of killing but not murder, which is killing of an innocent person. OM/OW are NOT innocent unless they did not know your spouse was married. I believe adultery should still be felonies in every state with minimum 6 mo sentences. If a BS killed or severely injured a BS or OM/OW I could not rightly say guilty as a jury member. The WS should have to do the time in a case where OM/OW is killed by BS.


I would be scared to be your spouse if you say you could never. Knowing you could stumble when walking makes you watch your step. None of us are invinsible. Just my experience of watching those around me says your in huge danger with that attitude.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

W and I watch (too many) Discovery Channel shows. It always amazes us how many of the adultery and murder stories are wrapped around church people, men and women of God. 

Everyone can stumble. Some will fall. 

I've lived long enough to know that the more sure I am of myself, the more aware I need to be that weakness can be exposed. God is always teaching me lessons.


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Very interesting thread, lots of debate...my take on this question based on the infidelities of my husband, months of reading TAM and studying every infidelity book written is this:

It really depends upon a number of personality traits found in the wayward: feelings of entitlement, narcisstic tendencies, ability to compartmentalize, risk tolerance, openness to addictive behaviors, empathy for others, selfishness, strength of boundaries, moral character, dishonesty, ability to communicate, conflict tolerance, sexual expression, etc. The list could go on and on. 

The state of the marriage, and how the spouse is viewed are also factors which have to be taken into consideration. Justifications, as we all know, are infinite in the mind of betrayers. 

Opportunity, and whether a cheater got caught or disclosed a first affair as opposed to successfully keeping the secret from their spouse are huge factors, too. *If an affair is successfully kept secret from the BS, I truly believe it is very likely that the WS will recommit*

In my case, my husband had 3 infidelities that I know of now. There may have been more. The first, a ONS before we were married but committed, and 13 years later, an affair of 1 year; both I never knew about when I discovered 11 years later after the second ended, a 3rd affair of 6 years. I am convinced that if I had known about either of the first two, things would have been very different between us, if we had managed to stay together at all. If I had learned of the ONS, we would have broke up or we would have worked on what led him to so easily break his commitment to me and hide his infidelity and continue our relationship. In that case, I'm sure the second affair would have been the deal breaker. 

My husband never had to address the issues/flaws in his own personality or his contribution to the dysfunction in our marriage(half of which I take responsibility for) after the first two infidelities. I was never made aware of his unhappiness or unmet needs. As you can imagine, with his loss of respect for me and our marriage and the neglect and loss of affection I experienced, our relationship spiraled out of control until the opportunity came along for him to easily escape into another relationship which he continued as long as I knew nothing. 

By definition, my husband is a serial cheater. Will he cheat again? Possibly, but not likely as he now knows the devastation he wrought on both me and even his last AP. He daily feels the consequences of his past decisions in my pain and grief and his own shame and loss of honor. I believe he understands how lost his morals were and that he has only a short time left in his life to redeem himself. He feels he can never make up to me what he destroyed. He may be right no matter how he acts in the future. He also understands fully that I will not tolerate another lapse.

And so to answer the question "Once a cheater, always a cheater?" you have to ask the Betrayed Spouse. When they can forgive fully, and take off the armor of anger, they will cease to think of the FWS as Cheater but as a redeemed person they can trust, feel vulnerable with and fully give themselves to in a loving relationship. The real question is: *Does the BS need to forgive first in order for the FWS to redeem themselves or must the FWS need to redeem his life and character for the BS to be able to forgive? *


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

I couldn't forgive my fWW had she not tried to redeem herself. Even with that, it's one of the most difficult things I've endured in my 55 years.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Do Betrayers Really Ever Change
> 
> I betrayed my husband one time...thirty years ago. I have lived these last thirty years totally transparent..I have done everything in my power to rebuild trust, I have lived the last thirty years proving to him that I love him, that I am grateful for his forgiveness...
> I understand that he has given me a gift..and I am eternally grateful.
> ...


#1 mucho respect to you... awesome.

#2 you must know how rare this is and how rare you are.

#3 I think a lot of us that have been stung by infidelity confuse improbability with impossibility.

Lesson noted.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

People can and do change everyday. The ideal is to learn from your mistakes and become a better person. That is the best any of us can do. 

Sins can be forgiven if the offender is remorseful but the damage can never be undone. We should all try to be mindful of this in *ALL* areas of our lives. Think before you speak or act less peeople get hurt that way.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Truthseeker1 said:


> Sins can be forgiven if the offender is remorseful but the damage can never be undone...


Some people may confuse this sentence with "the damage can never be fully healed and recovered from." While we certainly cant go back in time to undo something, we can fully heal from the impact of that something if a good effort is made.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

allwillbewell said:


> The real question is: *Does the BS need to forgive first in order for the FWS to redeem themselves or must the FWS need to redeem his life and character for the BS to be able to forgive? *


Great post BTW. As far as the question goes, I think a lot of it has to do with how you view forgiveness. I see forgiveness as something I do for myself, I forgive the person who wronged me, letting go of whatever pain, anger, or resentment I may be feeling, to stop those feelings from poisoning my soul. 

A big part of the R process is the ability of the fWS to forgive themselves, in order to eventually let go of the guilt, shame, and self loathing they tend to feel when they are remorseful. They require the help of the fBS to do this, and if they can not, there will be very little room left in them for nurturing love and all the other stuff that makes a good relationship.

So redemption and forgiveness become linked and must occur simultaneously.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

I take for granted that some people do not value being humble, as I find it to be a good way to approach most of life. That look you describe getting from your husband perfectly encompasses the concept of true R. Even though your lives have been influenced by infidelity, you do not let it define who you are. I am fond of the phrase "I am perfectly imperfect," and try to repeat that to myself whenever I am fixated on achieving an impossible standard and need to let go.


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## the2ofus (Jan 28, 2014)

Paladin said:


> Some people may confuse this sentence with "the damage can never be fully healed and recovered from." While we certainly cant go back in time to undo something, we can fully heal from the impact of that something if a good effort is made.


I agree but even with healing their can still be a scar.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

the2ofus said:


> I agree but even with healing their can still be a scar.


:iagree: Absolutely. In my experience people can and do move on but scars do remain. I've seen that time and again.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

What I find myself struggling with still, is the uncertainty in determining whether my wife will cheat again or not. I still think about it every day, three years after d-day.

I was so naive before, as before mentioned, I had no clue, there were no signs of actual cheating - only what I now learned are red flags regarding infidelity-enabling behaviour. It just didn't cross my mind that her having sex with another man for so long was even a remote possibility.

I'm aware of the possibility today, but I also know that her talents as an actress are unlimited. So, just a little bit scared that it might happen again an inflict so much pain again - still a bit uncertain whether I would survive it or not (figuratively speaking of course). I believe I have prepared myself, but still wonder. I need to use all my tools in my mindfullness and present moment thinking toolbox to chase these thoughts away - each and every day.

All this because it isn't possible to tell if a person has changed his/her core beliefs, or if it's just another charade.

I'm starting to think that relationships just isn't for me, if the underlying premise is, that you need to expect betrayal in order to be prepared for it when it hits you. It can't be healthy for a close connection, can it? I would like a crystal ball, please.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

I need to catch up on this thread...


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

cpacan said:


> What I find myself struggling with still, is the uncertainty in determining whether my wife will cheat again or not. I still think about it every day, three years after d-day.
> 
> I was so naive before, as before mentioned, I had no clue, there were no signs of actual cheating - only what I now learned are red flags regarding infidelity-enabling behaviour. It just didn't cross my mind that her having sex with another man for so long was even a remote possibility.
> 
> ...


Are you still with her?


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

WhiteRaven said:


> Are you still with her?


Yes - otherwise I wouldn't care one bit if she changed or not


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

cpacan said:


> Yes - otherwise I wouldn't care one bit if she changed or not


You are addicted to pain, aren't you?


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

WhiteRaven said:


> You are addicted to pain, aren't you?


If true, I'm not aware of it. I've just measured two sh1t sandwiches up against each other, chose the minor one, I believe, but it still is what it is, for now at least.

I'll borrow a phrase from Wazza: I believe the odds of her changing are better than the odds of winning the find a new faithfull partner lottery. 

Add to the mix history, allthough tainted now, and kids (plus everything else we share).

I know most people change, at least I have. But unfortunately, you can't read other peoples mind and know if they have truly changed. So I guess there is no other way around this than preparing yourself for what ever may come.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

cpacan said:


> If true, I'm not aware of it. I've just measured two sh1t sandwiches up against each other, chose the minor one, I believe, but it still is what it is, for now at least.
> 
> I'll borrow a phrase from Wazza: I believe the odds of her changing are better than the odds of winning the find a new faithfull partner lottery.
> 
> ...


Devil and the deep sea - either way you get shafted. 

Sorry bro, you deserved better.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> I need to catch up on this thread...


Ugh. Trying to catch up but it's a slog.

This thread needs a lawn crew gangbang, peanut butter pap smear (starring "Fido, the OB/GYN Doggie!"), some literature extolling the dependability of the Singer sewing machine presented via interpretive dance... SOMETHING!


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

@cpacan 

The uncertainty you mentioned is most probably the toughest issue to deal with when working through the early stages of reconciliation. When I first started posting here, and after the prerequisites for R were met, I too felt that kind of duality. My heart felt love for my spouse and her love for me, she was remorseful and working hard, but my brain was defensive, uncertain and scared of getting hurt again. 

At some point in time, you have to let your guard down and become vulnerable again. There are a few things you can do to help in that department. If the doubt you feel is not debilitating or severe you may want to consider taking a low/med dose of sertraline(Zoloft) daily. I found 75mg-100mg to be a very effective dose, and attribute some of my early success in being able to move forward with healing to that medication. 

I was on it for the first 8 months of R, and in addition to being a good and well known anti depressant, it helps with assertiveness, intrusive thoughts, and most importantly, being able to let go of nagging uncertainty. There are no major side effects, but after being on it for 3 months or so you might have issues being able to reach orgasm/ejaculation. Erections and arousal are fine, but it becomes almost impossible to transition from a 9.5 to a 10(orgasm). Your brain will adjust, and that issue will usually go away after 12-16 months of using the meds.

As your R progresses, you will shed these feelings and eventually get to a point where these feelings will seem alien or foreign to you. Being open with your spouse whenever you have intrusive thoughts like these may also help.


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## NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME RIGHT? (Sep 28, 2012)

This is indeed an interesting thread, and this group should be commended for actually LISTENING to eachother and maintaining a respectful dialogue throughout. So refreshing to read a thread like this!

It has made me curious about another, similar, question. I wonder what percentage of WS and FWS used to think/say "I would NEVER cheat. No way am I capable of that."

I would bet the majority, right up to the moment it happened. I have always said that I believe anyone is capable of cheating, which is why we have to make the active decision not to daily. I have always believed that by stating we would never, we actually increase the odds. Because if it's not an option, if it is a given that I will never cheat, then I don't have to worry as much about boundaries etc. Each day we make decisions that either move us closer to or further from infidelity. I keep my guard up daily, and so far so good.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

NEVER HAPPEN 2 ME said:


> This is indeed an interesting thread, and this group should be commended for actually LISTENING to eachother and maintaining a respectful dialogue throughout. So refreshing to read a thread like this!
> 
> *It has made me curious about another, similar, question. I wonder what percentage of WS and FWS used to think/say "I would NEVER cheat. No way am I capable of that."*
> 
> I would bet the majority, right up to the moment it happened. I have always said that I believe anyone is capable of cheating, which is why we have to make the active decision not to daily. I have always believed that by stating we would never, we actually increase the odds. Because if it's not an option, if it is a given that I will never cheat, then I don't have to worry as much about boundaries etc. Each day we make decisions that either move us closer to or further from infidelity. I keep my guard up daily, and so far so good.


I have never had any kind of sexual contact with anyone other than my husband, since we met. I am one who had always stated "I could never do that". And then, I cheated. It was "just" an emotional affair, and even when presented with opportunities to have sex with another man, I walked away. But I'm not naive enough to believe I could never have sex with another man. I know that if the "right" circumstances presented themselves, it could happen. That's why I CHOOSE not to put myself in such situations that could lead to that sort of behavior. One of the things I choose to do, to prevent such actions, is talking openly to my husband... something that wasn't happening during the time of my emotional infidelity. So, I'd say that I have certainly changed since then: I have become more mindful of my actions and stay away from such situations. *shrug* Some don't see that as change. It doesn't matter that they don't. ONly one person's opinion matters on this... and he does see it as change.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I can say that I think I would never cheat... I can rationalize that by saying I'm just not the cheating type (and I'm not.)

I have also been tried and tested... by hot young 20 somethings offering casual, secret rendezvous. I've still said no.

However, I must concede that there might be possibilities where it still could happen. It is theoretically possible that I could have a big fight with my wife, think she's having a fling or something, go out, get blasted, and have a hottie try to get me in the sack and succeed.

That's why I try to avoid certain situations... just because I'm sure that I won't cheat doesn't mean that I'm not human. So it's best to avoid it altogether.


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

I certainly agree with the posters who feel ANYONE could cheat and that once having crossed that line, it becomes easier to cheat again, with the same partner or a different, especially if the cheater wasn't caught or disclosed.


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## russell28 (Apr 17, 2013)

Betrayers is too general a term.

A ONS, that is confessed and the spouse is remorseful.. how does that compare to my wife cheating for half a decade with a co-worker? One obviously is the type of person that can't compartmentalize and live with guilt, like most that don't stray.. the other, obviously had no issue with lying and sneaking and was able to live with themselves just fine until they got caught.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Someone said it beautifully...that EI and I have changed back to who we were before we cheated. I think that sums it up.


I'm hoping that's what has happened to my fWW.


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## WhiteRaven (Feb 24, 2014)

Mrs JA, it's not where you were but where you are now that matters. For you and El, I can take the posts at face value. I won't say I adore either one of you but but I do respect both of you. I guess that's the most that can be expected from a man in my position.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

I pretty much agree with Mrs. JA. I know behavior and thought patterns, emotions and desires can all be changed or trained to be different. Whatever vile thing a person does, and infidelity is near the top of the vile list, they can choose to continue the behavior, making it easier with every repeat, or break the behavior before it becomes habit.

Like any crappy, self serving behavior, the longer someone cheats, the harder it usually becomes to stop on their own.

In some cases, a ws was caught by their very strong BS. In some of these cases the strong and confident way the BS confronts and deals with the situation, by divorcing or reconciling, shocks the ws out of their "habit" kind of like an unbearable pain or sickness can change a persons perception of the activity or substance that caused the pain or sickness.

The same way that someone might have started out fairly "good" in life and then allowed themselves to become something ugly and despicable, a currently selfish and evil person can grow to hate what they are doing so much as to affect change.

I know some very beautiful, devoted, and caring women, who formerly, might not have been worth spitting on. They are wonderful wives and mothers worthy of a dignity that they once spurned.

There are, however, scars or injuries that last a lifetime from actions that are so absolutely destructive and death dealing as infidelity.

I think that people can and do change, but their lives are never the same after infidelity.

Maybe that is some of the essence that OP is referring to? Once someone has cheated they are, in some ways, forever altered?

For the record. I have never cheated but in nearly 23 years with my wife I have been seriously tempted many times.

Sometimes the chemistry has just been phenomenal. At other times, our relationship has been at a low point, like any long term marriage. There has been times when the attraction was so intense that I had to leave a womans presence because my body was betraying me.

The most recent time happened at a church group just a couple of months ago. I had to make sure I was never in single conversation with her for more than a moment.

Since I have been tempted on and off for the course of my marriage, does that make me a cheater? I have everything in common with your acquaintance that cheated 30 years ago and has since been tempted but didn't act on it. 

I might not have cheated but I used to get drunk. I am from a family of alcoholics and used to abuse the stuff pretty regularly.

The last time I got drunk was when I was 26. I hated myself enough the next day to never get drunk again. I actually layed off drinking for about 10 years. I now enjoy a good beer or wine responsibly.

I am still tempted to abuse alcohol but I don't. Am I an alcoholic?

My actions for the last 17 years say that I am not.

Former cheaters are not cheaters anymore, even if they are still occasionally tempted to cheat, just like me who has never cheated. 

At this point in their lives, former cheaters are just like me.

They may be tempted but they don't.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Do I think betrayers ever REALLY change?

I think they can, but I also think cheaters that REALLY change are rare. Because even the ones that vow never to cheat again would probably like to still get some strange on the side, but they refrain from doing so only out of fear of what they will lose.

Now there are those that I think truly change and do NOT want that strange any longer, but I think they are few and far between.

In any case, I'll side with caution and take the stance that they never TRULY change.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Vell...you just argued with yourself...lol
> 
> You said I think they can.....then you said they can never truly change.


Yes, for those that are not among that rare group. The rare group, people such as yourself, I believe TRULY change.

The others I think change on the surface, and can make good on the decision to never actually cheat again, but their skin must be crawling having to forsake all others.



> You know they can change....you know some do change....and you know I am one that has changed.
> 
> soo there you go!


No. Again. Those that can TRULY change are rare to me. The others change, but not truly.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Life after infidelity can be as good as it was before...different? Yes. I can never give back to my husband the fact that he was the only man I had sex with..*.but I can give him my complete and utter devotion..*.I can give him my love and admiration...


This seems to be the rub, it is a rare,rare thing to achieve and fraught with risk that threatens to destroy the person who allows their cheating spouse back into their life fully.

I don't think most people who have cheated can pull it off.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> yes...you are right...but the possibility exists....and I am living proof....so that kills your hypothesis.


No, it doesn't kill my hypothesis because I agreed that people can truly change. I just think they are rare, like you.

And since it is a rarity, I don't like playing the lottery. So for me, I'll treat someone that has cheated as if they will never truly change. I'm just playing the odds.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

michzz said:


> This seems to be the rub, it is a rare,rare thing to achieve and fraught with risk that threatens to destroy the person who allows their cheating spouse back into their life fully.
> 
> I don't think most people who have cheated can pull it off.


Maybe, maybe not. I'm not saying that if one is betrayed, he or she MUST give another chance. I fully respect anyone who states a deal breaker and stands by it. I also fully respect those who decide it isn't the deal breaker they once insisted. But, it's not impossible that they can do it.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> and i accept that....but SOME can and have. your redeeming phrase here is *MOST*


For me at least, As they say... We'll see.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Mrs. John Adams said:


> Life after infidelity can be as good as it was before...different? Yes. I can never give back to my husband the fact that he was the only man I had sex with..*.but I can give him my complete and utter devotion..*.I can give him my love and admiration...





michzz said:


> This seems to be the rub, it is a rare,rare thing to achieve and fraught with risk that threatens to destroy the person who allows their cheating spouse back into their life fully.
> 
> I don't think most people who have cheated can pull it off.





Mrs. John Adams said:


> and i accept that....but SOME can and have. your redeeming phrase here is MOST


Nothing really to redeem, it's strictly bell curve stuff.

I don't think most people who have cheated get this, but betrayed people do intuitively.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

All marriages lack something. And all of them have more than enough of something else. It's always a compromise. 

The thing is, there are no perfect partners out there. We, ourselves, aren't perfect. It's the white picket fence dream, and it's just a dream. 

We make the best choices we can in life. That's what makes us good people. But since we're imperfect, we can screw up. Sometimes badly, for whatever reasons. 

Honest, open communication in a marriage is what it boils down to. And that goes double when there's a conflict. If one partner says, for example, I want more sex, and the other says oh well too bad, the marriage takes a hit. 

Since none of us are invincible, too many hits sinks the ship. You both need to go to dry dock and fix that. But people have pride, stubbornness, ignorance (most often borne out of poor communication) and many other faults. So we limp along with the hits and tell ourselves it's OK when, quite often, it's not. 

You have to both want the marriage and both be willing to compromise when conflict arises. That doesn't mean one is a doormat and one is a boot. That means you trade roles. You have to know what you're willing to accept in life and keep the spiral positive. It's when we drop into negative spirals with unresolved problems that things become harder to fix. Communication falters, stalls, ends. And that spells disaster for a marriage.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

vellocet said:


> No, it doesn't kill my hypothesis because I agreed that people can truly change. I just think they are rare, like you.
> 
> And since it is a rarity, I don't like playing the lottery. So for me, I'll treat someone that has cheated as if they will never truly change. I'm just playing the odds.


There's something to this that is very, very true.

My spouse may never cheat. However, I concede that she's human, and therefore I want to stack the odds in my favour... because that's playing the lottery smart. This has included upping my status, trusting but verifying, and mate guarding when appropriate.

However, if my spouse ever did cheat, I would likely never, ever trust her again and leave immediately. The raw fact of the matter is that most cheaters cheat more than once, and shift the blame away from themselves to their affair partners and/or their spouses. It would be possible, but unlikely, that this would be the last affair.

This low probability combined with the high amount of pain and effort that it would take to rebuild my marriage (and utter disgust with her which would lead to our marriage never being that good again) would compel me to make the rational choice to leave and pursue a better relationship with someone else.

For me, there are no special flowers, no "soul mates", and no "the one for me." Once this part of me died, I saw the world far more rationally, and every part of my life started to get better.


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

I am hugely uncomfortable with the premise espoused by MJA that reformed cheaters can revert back to who they were before they cheated.

They must change their character into a much better place than one that had allowed the marriage to devolve into a place where they could justify betrayal.

Obviously they were capable of withholding honesty, lacked the desire to communicate, prefered withdrawal to conflict resolution, held their spouse in disrespect and all sorts of other dysfunctions that typically preceed the justifications to betray.

To truly reform, they must become better than they were: stronger boundaries, understanding what compelled them to cheat, higher morals, greater respect for themselves and for their spouse, stronger committment to the marriage, greater empathy for others, better willingness to compromise and all the other countless characteristics that are required to make the complex relationship of marriage work.

To merely change back to what they were won 't cut it...with all due respect to MJA and other fws who have reconciled successfully.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

allwillbewell said:


> I am hugely uncomfortable with the premise espoused by MJA that reformed cheaters can revert back to who they were before they cheated.
> 
> They must change their character into a much better place than one that had allowed the marriage to devolve into a place where they could justify betrayal.
> 
> ...


My quote and I am a BS.

Mrs A was loyal for 7 years, cheated one day then loyal 30 years and counting.

No one said anything about what cuts it. She does the work and then some.

She is not an evil person. She is not that one day.


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## ire8179 (Apr 19, 2014)

So what defines change ? Is change of behavior enough ?

I read in an affair confession blog about a guy who had an affair with one of the mom in his son's little league team for 3 years. After he got caught he admitted everything to his wife and went NC. He became the "perfect" husband and his wife forgave him, they are happy now. He said that what he did was a "mistake" BUT he indeed misses the thrill and said the best sex he ever had were during his affair, he didn't tell his wife this part. Surprisingly (at least to me) many of the other confessions also stated the same, they are sorry but really miss the sensation they got during their affair be it good sex, the "friendship", the thrill etc

I think change of behavior is not enough, for a truly remorseful spouse they also have to change their mind pattern, something that's form their inner character. It's just plain wrong to miss a sensation from something that shattered the life of your spouse, it just tells me that these kind of people feel sorry that they got caught and hurt the BS but not for the affair itself.

How many people can really truly change ? IMO not a lot


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Perhaps there is an intrinsic difference in the ONS infidelity based on a perfect storm of circumstance, compromised boundaries(for whatever reason), perhaps fueled by alcohol/drugs that was truly a mistake, an aberration, resulting in deep remorse, guilt and serious intent never to repeat, including sincere introspection and dedication to strengthening the moral character of the WS, whether or not the affair was disclosed.

IMO, while this type of infidelity can still cause incredible devastation in their S, it does not compare to the infidelity of a serial cheater, or those who have a LTA. Whereas the first was truly a mistake totally out of character, the second and third types have chosen a lifestyle that defines their character. No matter how befuddled they are by the addictive nature of the affair, they know the risk, the consequences of being discovered and couldn't care less.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

allwillbewell said:


> Perhaps there is an intrinsic difference in the ONS infidelity based on a perfect storm of circumstance, compromised boundaries(for whatever reason), perhaps fueled by alcohol/drugs that was truly a mistake, an aberration, resulting in deep remorse, guilt and serious intent never to repeat, including sincere introspection and dedication to strengthening the moral character of the WS, *whether or not the affair was disclosed.
> *
> IMO, while this type of infidelity can still cause incredible devastation in their S, it does not compare to the infidelity of a serial cheater, or those who have a LTA. Whereas the first was truly a mistake totally out of character, the second and third types have chosen a lifestyle that defines their character. No matter how befuddled they are by the addictive nature of the affair, they know the risk, the consequences of being discovered and couldn't care less.


So if the A wasn't disclosed (as bolded above)then the ONS A too would have chosen their life of deceit and lies by hiding it rom their BS. Since they chose possibly to hide it how does this gibe them a higher moral ground than those that chose to repeat the endeavor? The lying, deceit, and betrayal generally hurts as bad if not worse to some than the action.


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

True but those WS who understand the devastation they caused, work to redeem themselves and positively change their character in order to never let it happen again are heads above in moral character to those who remain in *lying, deceit and betrayal.*

Whether or not the ONS (never to be repeated) should be disclosed or not is another subject altogether. My husband never disclosed his first affair and it did tremendous damage to our marriage in that I never knew he was unhappy, we never worked on the dysfunction in the marriage and it eased him into committing a second affair(which I did discover) many years later.

But yes, for those years I was unaware of the first affair I was reasonably happy and thought we just had the type of marriage many have of conflict, resolution and diminishing returns.


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## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Well. IMHO, Mrs. JA, has 'history' behind her...

Mr. JA, came on here to TAM late, 20+ years later... he brought Mrs. JA to "us,"... she walks the talk.

-sammy


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