# Feeling stuck



## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

Okay, this is my first post and I'm looking for some advice. Earlier this year I started what would turn into an eight month affair (4 EA, 4 PA) with an older single friend. It took until things began to turn physical before I realized that anything was amiss in our friendship (my H had full access to texts and communication and I never hung out with AP without my H present). When my AP first professed romantic feelings for me, I immediately went to H and said "Help, what do I do? I don't want to lose my friend but now see how so much may have led him to think things were more than friendly." My H was unconcerned, told me he knew nothing would happen between us, and left it at that. So I tried to end the situation on my own but eventually ended up entering into a PA against anything I intended or ever felt capable of. After a few weeks I confessed to H and have spent the past 3 months trying to end things definitively and maintain NC with AP. A little background: H and I married very young and held pretty religious ideals. Through the life of our marriage H has been unable to prioritize me or our family above outside people. These include his parents, people in our church, work, etc. So, for the past 10 years (we are 28 and 30) we have had periods of regular conflict where I tell him that I need him to be on my team and he says he will and then can't seem to translate that into action. He is a pleaser and would rather disappoint me than anyone else because he knows I am legally bound to love him anyway. I have had some major bouts of depression because of these conflicts. We almost separated three times in 10 years but never could do it because of the religious background (and because we really do care about each other). Because we could never figure out how to work out the big issue of lack of partnership or mutual support (and I know I'm half of that equation) we threw in distractors. We had babies, we bought houses, we moved across the country and switched jobs and at the beginning of this year we became foster parents. I suddenly found myself the mom of four kids under the age of four and a H who wasn't a partner. I was overhelemed and sad and lonely and it was nice to have a friend who was older and just wanted to listen to me vent or make me lunch of be sweet to me and make me feel taken care of (none of which I was able to vocalize until I got caught up in the affair and went into IC). As soon as I felt able, I confessed to my H and have been completely honest with him since then, even when there has been contact between me and AP. I am not naturally a liar and I don't want to be this person i have become through this affair. I am depressed and feel hopeless and I am frequently full of self loathing and identity confusion. My H and I have intentionally separated on a trial basis, found a different placement for our foster kids, and are trying to work together to shield our bio kids from all the fallout. My H has been hopeful and wanting to work things out almost since DDay. He is gracious and forgiving and a kind man. I just can't make myself reattach to him. All the built up disconnection before the A and the effects of the A itself have left me trying to work to see if we can rebuild a better relationship from this point forward, but I can't seem to make myself feel the things I should feel anymore. I am doing the things I think I should be doing (complete honesty, NC with AP, IC and MC every week, etc.) but i still feel detached and hopeless. Does anyone have experience with this? How do you get through it? Do the feelings ever come back? Is there more i can do to help the process along?


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

trying2212 said:


> I just can't make myself reattach to him. All the built up disconnection before the A and the effects of the A itself have left me trying to work to see if we can rebuild a better relationship from this point forward, but I can't seem to make myself feel the things I should feel anymore.


In other words your husband just doesn't do it for you anymore? I not a bit surprised if that's the case and fairly normal.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Do you love your husband? If you do, send him to this forum. He needs us desperately, because he's made one mistake after another in dealing with your EA/PA. He didn't insist you go no contact when you told him this "friend's" intentions, he's given you no consequences for cheating, and he's prematurely tried to commit to R. If he'll listen to us, we can put him on the right path.

As for as you're concerned, you need to do one of two things. Either divorce your husband because you can't commit 100% to your marriage *or* continue no contact with your boyfriend, beg your husband for forgiveness, be thankful that he's given you the gift of a second chance, and demonstrate genuine remorse every day. Quit pining for the POSOM and then fake it till you make it with your husband.

There's no in between.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

He has a right to a women who loves him. You need to learn to deal with your issue productively. You also need to not romanticize your affair if you are. You and this man have probably destroyed your kids family. There is nothing romantic about that. I agree send your husband here. He will get some flack but maybe he will stop being so wishy washy which I suspect is part of the problem.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

She appears to me to have taken responsibility for her affair and has ended it. I don’t think she’s looking for help with that. She wants to reconnect with her husband, but can’t. That could be due to the fact that she’s still in the affair “fog” or, she’s not one of those WS who suddenly “loves” her husband after the affair ends after listing all of their faults that drove them to the affair. The faults that she listed very well could have caused her to fall out of love with her husband and knowing that it most likely won’t change, she doesn’t feel romantic love for him anymore. She appears to be trying to do the right things, but she isn’t in love with him anymore and can’t figure out how to be.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

trying2212 said:


> Do the feelings ever come back? Is there more i can do to help the process along?


It is possible, and yes.



trying2212 said:


> He is a pleaser and would rather disappoint me than anyone else because he knows I am legally bound to love him anyway.


Can I have a bit of latitude here? Because I don't think your husband is stupid enough to think " my wife is legally bound to love me". No person can be legally bound to love someone else. It doesn't work.
So, I cannot possibly think that he would "rather disappoint you than anyone else" for this reason, alone. A man wants nothing more in his life than to be his wife's "hero". So, it is a double non sequitur, no reward could possibly come to him by disappointing you. My guess is, that he "gave up" trying to please you.

A "pleaser" finds others who ARE PLEASED by things he can deliver. He will staunchly serve those others because he CAN PLEASE them. Your entire post has an air of disrespect for him. In fact, disrespect for one's partner is the prime ingredient of adultery.

Could it possibly be, that your adultery, and his "pleasing", come from the same root?

It is quite worthy to note that the bible does not directly instruct wives to "love" their husband. It is, however, stated as an indirect command, being that the "older women" are to teach the "younger women" to love their husbands.

The bible does directly instruct wives to "respect" their husbands. 

I cannot guarantee that your efforts will succeed to save your marriage. But, if saving your marriage is your goal, then this is my biblically-based advice for you. When you begin to obey this biblical command, I think you will find your feelings returning.

If your "religion" is REAL, and not just a "default set", then you may seek God for wisdom in how to respect your husband. You cannot change your husband. He will have to seek God for his own wisdom in how to return to "plugged-in" to his marriage.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

LosingHim said:


> The faults that she listed very well could have caused her to fall out of love with her husband and knowing that it most likely won’t change, she doesn’t feel romantic love for him anymore. She appears to be trying to do the right things, but she isn’t in love with him anymore and can’t figure out how to be.


I think more than her husband's faults, falling in love with the OM (the fog) is the issue. If she wants to stay married, I don't think that she can do anything but take the time to work her way through it, while feeling enough empathy for her husband not to show it or talk about it. My WW managed to do that, and many other WS's as well. She's not unique.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

Woah, some of the advice is coming with a ton of judgment. Let me lay it straight: I'm not trying to blame my H for my affair and I'm not pining for my AP. Yes, it was difficult to completwly end contact at first because an affair ends up being extremely addictive. I have gone NC and am maintaining that. My choices were my own and I take responsibility for that. There have been consequences for all of us and I do feel remorse. I apologize and legitimately ask for forgiveness for what has happened. But it would be really easy to say this affair is the cause of all the problems instead of a symptom of the existing problems. As to my husband feeling that I would just keep on living him based solely on the fact that we are married, he will even admit this. He comes from a pretty emotionless family that never put much stock in the emotional realm. So no matter how much I expressed the need for connection it just never translated for him. I cannot say I haven't disrespected my husband because I have been unfaithful which denotes a huge lack of respect, but I am working to figure out how to change my patterns in order to change the system. You can question my sincerity or my faith or whatever you want to question, but all I really want to know if there is a way through this where we can do the work and actually reconnect. If we do the work will the feelings follow?


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

badmemory said:


> I think more than her husband's faults, falling in love with the OM (the fog) is the issue. If she wants to stay married, I don't think that she can do anything but take the time to work her way through it, while feeling enough empathy for her husband not to show it or talk about it. My WW managed to do that, and many other WS's as well. She's not unique.


She absolutely can. I was just saying that it could be one of those two things. Not knowing more of the story or her having said anything about either one, I was just throwing both out there saying it could be either. Without more details, it’s kind of hard to say if she’s still ‘in the fog’ or if she’s truly fallen out of love.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

This is maybe a stupid question, but how do you know if you're in the fog???


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

The affair is effectively not over if there is any form of contact. 

In other words, there is no reconnecting, reconciliation, lifting of the fog, etc., as long as there is ANY form of contact.

The only way an addict can stop is cold turkey...not cool turkey.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

trying2212 said:


> As to my husband feeling that I would just keep on living him based solely on the fact that we are married, he will even admit this. He comes from a pretty emotionless family that never put much stock in the emotional realm.


It sounds as if you're saying that your husband is mostly ambivalent about your cheating. If so, that's sad for you and him. And I stand corrected, he probably needs IC as much or more than he needs this forum.

Usually the first order of business when a WS cheats is to find out if the BS has the capacity to forgive and whether the WS is willing to do the heavy lifting to help them heal. It has to be about the BS, not the WS. That can take weeks or months. At whatever point that is resolved, *then* work can be done on the marital issues.

You mentioned you have received consequences. What were they? Were you exposed to friends and family? Do you have new marital boundaries? Do you now account for your time away from him? Did he make you get STD tested? Did you write a no contact letter to the OM? Did you have to wait for weeks for your husband to decide whether to R or D?


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

So, assuming continued NC with AP does anyone have any experience with the next steps? How long is the timeframe for getting out of the fog? Has anyone successfully done this without there being a weird power imbalance in the relationship after? Because staying together but being punished for the A forever or feeling resentful towards my H for the things that came before the A seems like a bad way to be. I want to be able to build something better but I don't know how. So I'm wondering if anyone had successfully done it and what they did.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

trying2212 said:


> This is maybe a stupid question, but how do you know if you're in the fog???


Remember that feeling you had when you were with the OM? That dopamine induced feeling of love/limerence/lust. That's it. It doesn't shut off like a faucet when you go no contact.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

As far as consequences, my husband and I have separated (at my request because he really tried to sweep it under the rug right away and I thought we should really actually work through it.) I exposed myself to friends and the pastors of our church and my family because I knew I needed help and accountability. He has made very few demands. He want us to reconcile but knows that we both need to work through what led us here if we hope to keep it from happening again. I have given him access to my phone and internet stuff and I will literally tell him anything he wants whenever he wants. Before this, I legitimately was not dishonest with him. It was incredibly difficult to keep this secret even for a few weeks. I want to rebuild trust but weirdly, my H barely seemed to stop trusting me at all. He is in IC as well and I try to remind him that it's okay to get mad about it. It's okay to feel things. He just doesn't seem to want to. He wants things to be normal again. I just don't know how to do that with him because I feel anything but normal. I feel like I've lost myself completely through this. I can't beg him to be mad, but neither can I seem to make myself feel committed 100% when it feels like we would be rug sweeping everything like we have done in the past.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

trying2212 said:


> So, assuming continued NC with AP does anyone have any experience with the next steps? How long is the timeframe for getting out of the fog? Has anyone successfully done this without there being a weird power imbalance in the relationship after? Because staying together but being punished for the A forever or feeling resentful towards my H for the things that came before the A seems like a bad way to be. I want to be able to build something better but I don't know how. So I'm wondering if anyone had successfully done it and what they did.


4-5 years is average for working through betrayal such as this. And that person needing that 4-5 years is those that are betrayed.

Ready for the long haul?


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

And please don't hear this as me trying to make myself out to be the injured party. I'm not. I'm just as much to blame for the situation and entirely to blame for the A. I just know that the A had a lot of underlying issues with my marriage and I want to figure out how to give it everything I have. I am trying but I feel very hopeless and depressed even with the trying. H and I get together most nights to work out or watch tv after kids go to bed but even with renewed friendship, I feel no attra tion and that is just depreasing. We haven't been physical since a few months before the PA started (mostly due to stress and so many little kids) and I know that it will have to get figured out if we hope to stay together. So I need some feelings to follow. Or the hope that the feelings will follow.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

trying2212 said:


> And please don't hear this as me trying to make myself out to be the injured party. I'm not. I'm just as much to blame for the situation and entirely to blame for the A. I just know that the A had a lot of underlying issues with my marriage and I want to figure out how to give it everything I have. I am trying but I feel very hopeless and depressed even with the trying. H and I get together most nights to work out or watch tv after kids go to bed but even with renewed friendship, I feel no attra tion and that is just depreasing. We haven't been physical since a few months before the PA started (mostly due to stress and so many little kids) and I know that it will have to get figured out if we hope to stay together. So I need some feelings to follow. Or the hope that the feelings will follow.


You are going to have to be patient. Your H has a lot to work out in his mind. Try to put yourself in his shoes. How would you feel? Understand you are not the W he married. All that has changed. Would you drop you H like a bad habit if he betrayed you? Would you attempt to work it through?

Is sucks but you may get that feeling back once your H starts to come around.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

trying2212 said:


> As far as consequences, my husband and I have separated (at my request because he really tried to sweep it under the rug right away and I thought we should really actually work through it.) I exposed myself to friends and the pastors of our church and my family because I knew I needed help and accountability. He has made very few demands. He want us to reconcile but knows that we both need to work through what led us here if we hope to keep it from happening again. I have given him access to my phone and internet stuff and I will literally tell him anything he wants whenever he wants. Before this, I legitimately was not dishonest with him. It was incredibly difficult to keep this secret even for a few weeks. I want to rebuild trust but weirdly, my H barely seemed to stop trusting me at all. He is in IC as well and I try to remind him that it's okay to get mad about it. It's okay to feel things. He just doesn't seem to want to. He wants things to be normal again. I just don't know how to do that with him because I feel anything but normal. I feel like I've lost myself completely through this. I can't beg him to be mad, but neither can I seem to make myself feel committed 100% when it feels like we would be rug sweeping everything like we have done in the past.


I see. If that's true I'm now better understanding where you're coming from. I wasn't trying to be critical to you; just trying to make sure your priorities were in order. But if your husband is that far removed from reality, it's a difficult situation to deal with. Could be cognitive dissonance, departmentalization, co-dependency, denial; I don't know. But I think he has to be fixed before your marriage can be.

I'm glad he's in IC. I wouldn't normally advise MC this quickly after an A, but I think it's warranted here. He definitely needs help. The only other thing I can say is try to be patient and continue to demonstrate remorse. You at least owe him that. At some point though, you've got to decide (since he won't) if you both wouldn't be better off with a D.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

trying2212 said:


> Woah, some of the advice is coming with a ton of judgment. Let me lay it straight: I'm not trying to blame my H for my affair and I'm not pining for my AP. Yes, it was difficult to completwly end contact at first because an affair ends up being extremely addictive. I have gone NC and am maintaining that. My choices were my own and I take responsibility for that. There have been consequences for all of us and I do feel remorse. I apologize and legitimately ask for forgiveness for what has happened. But it would be really easy to say this affair is the cause of all the problems instead of a symptom of the existing problems. As to my husband feeling that I would just keep on living him based solely on the fact that we are married, he will even admit this. He comes from a pretty emotionless family that never put much stock in the emotional realm. So no matter how much I expressed the need for connection it just never translated for him. I cannot say I haven't disrespected my husband because I have been unfaithful which denotes a huge lack of respect, but I am working to figure out how to change my patterns in order to change the system. You can question my sincerity or my faith or whatever you want to question, but all I really want to know if there is a way through this where we can do the work and actually reconnect. If we do the work will the feelings follow?


I believe you when you say that your husband didn’t/doesn’t prioritize your marriage. His reaction when you asked him to help the EA from escalating screams indifference to me, and personally, if my husband reacted with such little concern over the risk of losing me, I’d be extremely hurt, and likely fall out of love with him altogether.

This is in NO way said to excuse your affair, and you obviously know that.

BUT....it really sounds to me like you are deeply unhappy in your marriage and you don’t feel loved or cared for. If it’s an issue of your husband not expressing emotion and affection for you, that’s fixable. But if it’s also that he he doesn’t care about you and the marriage, you may be on your way out by emotionally divorcing him. It sounds to me like you need to be honest with yourself about what you actually want here- to work hard to save a marriage with an emotionally unavailable partner or if you might need to end the relationship. I’d suggest marriage coaching for yourself (not to be confused with marriage or individual counseling. I think you need someone to help you explore trusting your intuiton and gut to decide if your husband is capable of having a mutually fulfilling intimate marriage or not).


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

trying2212 said:


> H and I get together most nights to work out or watch tv after kids go to bed but even with renewed friendship, I feel no attraction and that is just depreasing.


You know, we tell BH's all the time; that if they won't be strong and decisive in reaction to their wife's A, she will lose more respect for him, and with that, lose more attraction.

I think that's in large part, what's happening here. You actually don't want him to rug sweep. Still he does, and you can't help but lose respect and attraction because of it. It's just that we very rarely hear that from a WW. (I'm complementing you.)


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

If you've lost all attraction for your husband, you are most likely completely checked out of the relationship. That's a hard place to come back from even without the added complication of an affair. More than likely, a huge part of your affair was because you AREN'T attracted to your husband (and probably haven't been for a long while) anymore.

You've been together since you were practically children. Most people grow and change quite a bit as they mature, and it's not uncommon for relationships that began as teenagers to look very, very different as adults.

My marriage was completely over once I realized I no longer felt ANY attraction for my husband. We are divorced.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

You have lost attraction because your husband is as beta as they come... Not really even all that upset with you for having an affair, doesn't want to separate, and still trusts you? Wow. Nobody can respect that.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

I understand where you are coming from and I appreciate the feedback. I don't want you to get a completely bad image of my H. He is a nice man, a good father, a consistent provider, not abusive and doesn't struggle with addiction. He is maybe pretty codependent, but a lot of that stems from issues in childhood. He was homeschooled until college by VERY religious and mentally controlling parents (who are not bad people bit have been a major source of conflict for us.) For my part, i met him in college while i was struggling with my own issues of a rather emotionally unavailable/invalidating father. I wanted someone to take care of me and ended up with a very nice boy who needed more taking care of than anything. Then we had babies, so more taking care of others without getting the emotional support/validation. But my H and I were/are friends. We can laugh and hang out and parent our children. But when things get sad or hurtful or angry or in any way negative, he has always checked out. He is working in IC on this because the A was the first thing to shock his system enough to convince him there was a problem. But this was after years of conflict and me having 3 serious breakdowns and not ever knowing how to move forward (because in the end it is easier to go along with the rug sweeping than continue to fight for change with someone who can't go there with you.) So, yes, he is a nice man and a great father and if I can do anything to put it back together short of ignoring all the issues, I want to try. I am just so afraid that I'm too checked out. That maybe I was checked out before the A and just didn't see it because really, in our families and our church culture people don't split up. I want to hope that there is a way forward but I'm worries that I have irrevocably broken my ability to want my H in all the ways I think are necessary to maintain a healthy marriage.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

Do you respect him?


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

trying2212 said:


> if there is a way through this where we can do the work and actually reconnect. If we do the work will the feelings follow?


Yes, there is a way. Yes, you can do the work and actually reconnect. Yes, if you do the work, then start to behave toward each other in the correct ways, in time, the feelings will follow. The bible says "God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man (or woman) soweth, that shall he (she) also reap." It is God's promise that you will reap what you sow.



trying2212 said:


> I can't beg him to be mad, but neither can I seem to make myself feel committed 100% when it feels like we would be rug sweeping everything like we have done in the past.


Ok. You cannot "feel" committed because you are not. Simple fact. You have proven that by your affair. You have proven it to yourself. It will not be possible for you to feel committed until you have proven that you are. You feel like it is "rug-sweeping" because that is simple true fact. That is indeed what you have done in the past, and indeed what you are doing now. You must not allow "rug-sweeping". You must do all the work.

And, your husband's feelings are following HIS actions, and not yours. Your actions do not control his feelings. What he demands, or does not demand, is irrelevant. Seek God for what He demands.
And, do not wait to "feel". Act out of the TRUTH of God's word, and because God said it. Do it in obedience, not in feeling. You followed your "feelings" into your affair.

So, why did you marry your father and why did your husband marry his mother?


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Have you tried to be intimate with him?


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

We have tried to be intimate periodically since DDay. Sort of a gut check to see where we are both at. We get as far as kissing usually and I panic. There is some sort of wall there for me and I usually end up in tears. As to the respect piece, I have to think that no, at the moment I don't respect very much about him based on who he has been. But I respect the hard work he is doing now for himself. And I respect how gracious and forgiving he has been. And I respect that he has hope even though I can't seem to find any. He is a decent guy and I can respect him on that level. I just can't seem to respect him on the level of a partner right now.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

trying2212 said:


> I want to hope that there is a way forward but I'm worries that I have irrevocably broken my ability to want my H in all the ways I think are necessary to maintain a healthy marriage.


Ain't gonna work Trying and you may as well admit it. You know better than I do that woman never regain sufficient romantic interest in a man to maintain a reasonably happy relationship. I can understand the seriousness of wanting a marriage to work, but you really need to be honest with yourself. The reason the intimacy hit a brick wall was not because the "stress" of the kids. Plenty of couples have stress due to kids and many other things and still can't keep their hands of each other. At some point you're going to have to come to terms about how you really feel. Hint, if your husband rocked your world, you wouldn't have gave it up for the other cat. If the thrill is gone, you're going to be stuck with the mechanics where the body may perform but the mind is not with the program.
Again, I take these post at face value.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

OP, you must face your reality. You married your husband out of convenience for your need of security & friendship. You don't have the passion for him from the very start. You are more concern about outside appearances in your church rather than pay attention to your lack of respect and commitment to your husband. You must let your husband go. He deserves a wife who can love him & be committed to a marriage.

You need to be financially independent from your husband and see a psychologist. You do not need an affair to exit from your marriage. Leave your marriage with dignity for you and your husband.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

OnTheRocks said:


> You have lost attraction because your husband is as beta as they come... Not really even all that upset with you for having an affair, doesn't want to separate, and still trusts you? Wow. Nobody can respect that.


I'd like to propose that this man may be obeying his Lord in the ways and means that he has had Godly obedience explained and demonstrated to him in his family-of-origin and his church.
His quick forgiveness, his restraint upon his own anger, and his willingness to proceed with his marriage in spite of his wife's affair may indeed be his value-system at work in his life.

There are many times in marriage where we men must decide just how to carry out the command of the Apostle Paul to "...love your wives as Christ loved the church, and gave Himself for it...". In many of these cases, this behavior we are called upon to carry out will not be seen as "alpha" and will not be seen as the worldly "attractive to women". 

For us, the command of our Lord must exceed the authority of the world. That is not to say that it always does in our hearts, we have a sin nature which must be wrestled with and sometimes wins.

Women frequently "pick" men who exhibit these Godly character traits for husbands. These men make good husbands, and good fathers. They are unselfish and work sacrificially to provide for their wives and their families. The "trade-off" is made on the basis that sexual attraction is "not important", "learned", or "can be faked".

This wife states that her husband is indeed a good husband and a good father, and that she respects him for these things. My wife would say the same about me. But I'm not "alpha" and therefore, I'm not sexually attractive to her.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

TJW said:


> I'd like to propose that this man may be obeying his Lord in the ways and means that he has had Godly obedience explained and demonstrated to him in his family-of-origin and his church.
> His quick forgiveness, his restraint upon his own anger, and his willingness to proceed with his marriage in spite of his wife's affair may indeed be his value-system at work in his life.


I doubt it. But if that's the case, he's terribly misguided.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

Sorry, y'all lost me at 'god says...'


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

TJW posted: "I'd like to propose that this man may be obeying his Lord in the ways and means that he has had Godly obedience explained and demonstrated to him in his family-of-origin and his church.
His quick forgiveness, his restraint upon his own anger, and his willingness to proceed with his marriage in spite of his wife's affair may indeed be his value-system at work in his life.

There are many times in marriage where we men must decide just how to carry out the command of the Apostle Paul to "...love your wives as Christ loved the church, and gave Himself for it...". In many of these cases, this behavior we are called upon to carry out will not be seen as "alpha" and will not be seen as the worldly "attractive to women". 

For us, the command of our Lord must exceed the authority of the world. That is not to say that it always does in our hearts, we have a sin nature which must be wrestled with and sometimes wins.

Women frequently "pick" men who exhibit these Godly character traits for husbands. These men make good husbands, and good fathers. They are unselfish and work sacrificially to provide for their wives and their families. The "trade-off" is made on the basis that sexual attraction is "not important", "learned", or "can be faked".

*This wife states that her husband is indeed a good husband and a good father, and that she respects him for these things. My wife would say the same about me. But I'm not "alpha" and therefore, I'm not sexually attractive to her."*

*Yes to this!!.* Mother Nature does not care one bit about men's religious views or otherwise to follow a religious path to their marriage. Actually Mother nature doesn't care about marriage at all. It only cares that attraction within two individuals of the same species happens in order to continue gene expressions for life to carry on. Now, humans evolved mating rules in order to ensure the survival of the progeny. Socially, we have evolved to where we are now, but deep in our core the rules of attraction for mating still remain. A man/woman must maintain that original attraction (if the union was not one of economical/social/security convenience) in order for the union to continue on the same level for both partners, otherwise, one becomes beta, and that's the end of the attraction, and eventually the beta partner will find himself/herself alone, and/or at minimum cheated. remember, humans are not monogamous by nature; if we were, the word "infidelity" would not exist in our dictionaries. In order for the mate not to run away, and to insure that our genes are the ones that are being pass-on, we have develop contracts, that varies throughout societies/cultures, but at the core, the insurance of the survival of the progeny is what is at stake. Some women marry for convenience in order to insure the survival and well being of their progeny (hence securing a beta male that can ensure that stability). 

Here, the OP is obviously not attracted to her husband, or never really was (at the core), but as most of us, do not want or does not yet has the guts to leave her husband, for all the obvious reasons. She is trying to fight for something that might not be there, or never really was there to begin with. Top it with her husband being a passive, beta, unemotional male, i don't blame her in her conundrum.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

I appreciate your thoughts. I think something to remember is that we got married very young and had so little idea what we were going to need or want 10 years down the road and nor did we have great examples of passionate/connected upbringing in our families of origin. Add to that the message from H, his family, and our church that feelings don't/shouldn't matter (which are echoed in the responses of religious people in this thread) and you will see the quandary. Do we keep going and act like the commitment piece is enough or do we acknowledge that attraction and intimacy and connection are just as important? I never set out to cheat or separate from my H. Honestly by the time I understood the sitiation I had helped create we were pretty deep in it. And I never want to make those choices again. But if we're talking about a life of commitment for the sake of commitment on its own, I'm not confident I can maintain that.

Which brings me back to my original question: has anyone successfully rebuilt that connection after A? With passion and intimacy? How did you do it?


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

And as far as divorcing, I am in a frame of mind to consider it, but I want to be sure there are no other reasonable options. It's no more straightforward or less painful than trying to do the work on the front end. And even though divorce is less stigmatized in general these days, it's still pretty stigmatized for us. (Which, for me, is less about looking good yo others and more about the concern of having no supports for either of us should we decide to part ways.)


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

trying2212 said:


> Which brings me back to my original question: has anyone successfully rebuilt that connection after A? With passion and intimacy? How did you do it?


Well, in order to answer this I think YOU have to first answer THIS:

Were you ever truly attracted to him -- as in, can't keep your hands off him, animal lust, insanely drawn to him? Or instead, did he just tick all the boxes on your mental checklist for a suitable mate? Did you marry because you were head over heels in love, or did you "settle" because he was a good guy?

The answers to those questions will determine my answer to your question.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

trying2212 said:


> Okay, this is my first post and I'm looking for some advice. Earlier this year I started what would turn into an eight month affair (4 EA, 4 PA) with an older single friend. It took until things began to turn physical before I realized that anything was amiss in our friendship (my H had full access to texts and communication and I never hung out with AP without my H present). When my AP first professed romantic feelings for me, I immediately went to H and said "Help, what do I do? I don't want to lose my friend but now see how so much may have led him to think things were more than friendly." My H was unconcerned, told me he knew nothing would happen between us, and left it at that. So I tried to end the situation on my own but eventually ended up entering into a PA against anything I intended or ever felt capable of. After a few weeks I confessed to H and have spent the past 3 months trying to end things definitively and maintain NC with AP. A little background: H and I married very young and held pretty religious ideals. Through the life of our marriage H has been unable to prioritize me or our family above outside people. These include his parents, people in our church, work, etc. So, for the past 10 years (we are 28 and 30)
> 
> 
> This is tragic.
> ...


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

trying2212 said:


> has anyone successfully rebuilt that connection after A? With passion and intimacy? How did you do it?


It's certainly not part of my own experience. I found out, through her affars, that I "ticked the boxes". 

Some I've read about report that the affair was a "catalyst" which caused them to "do the work" needed to
build their marriage on a solid basis for the first time.

Happy as a clam asks the most apropos question, it is the one you must answer. If your husband is a "settle" then there isn't a snowball's chance in hades
that your marriage will ever have "passion and intimacy", or any "connection". He will never be able to "prioritize" you because he must get his needs met
outside the marriage, just like you did. Both you and your husband will "suffer through" as long as you stay together.


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

"we threw in distractors. We had babies, we bought houses, we moved across the country..."

Having babies is a distractor? 

Sorry to be blunt here, but describing your children in such a manner is quite telling. I can't wait to hear NoChoices's take on this one.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

BadGrammar said:


> "we threw in distractors. We had babies, we bought houses, we moved across the country..."
> 
> Having babies is a distractor?
> 
> Sorry to be blunt here, but describing your children in such a manner is quite telling. I can't wait to hear NoChoices's take on this one.


I don’t think she’s describing her children in a bad manner at all. Having children distracted them from focusing solely on their marriage.


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

LosingHim said:


> I don’t think she’s describing her children in a bad manner at all. Having children distracted them from focusing solely on their marriage.


I disagree. A child is a blessing to a marriage and presents the opportunity to strengthen and reconfirm the marital bond. So, when you write "Having children distracted them from focusing solely on their marriage" you are excluding perhaps the most integral element of said marriage... the children. 

To me, her description of the children as "distractors" makes them appear incidental to her childish inner struggle.

Where are you NoChoice?!


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

@trying2212 the answer is Yes, some people are able to create a happy and passionate marriage after an affair. Mostly, you need two spouses who want to re-connect, and who are willing to do the work. You are clearly willing to do the work and your H wants to reconcile. 

We don't see too many cases like yours here at TAM, where the wayward has taken full responsibility, has taken the initiative to expose to spouse, family, religious leaders, and even more, is actively refusing to allow rug-sweeping by herself or the betrayed spouse. I can't commend the affair but I do want to say that you are handling the outcome as well as anyone could be expected to do so. 

Given that your H wants to reconcile, that you have two young children together, and a strong cultural/religious imperative to stay together, your happiest future is likely one in which you and your H successfully reconcile here and go to have a long, strong, fulfilling marriage. 

I strongly recommend that you go get the book, "Surviving An Affair" by W. Harley. In fact, I would recommend that you go take a look at his Guidance Forums on his website, MarriageBuilders . This is one of the rare cases where I recommend that you post on their forum- their forum is very strict about posting only about Dr. Harley's strategies and often their One Size Fits All isn't actually a great fit for all posters (the forum is considerably more One Size Fits All than Dr Harley is!!!)- but I think you really are a great fit for his strategy. Dr. Harley is a Christian and while his web-site is not affiliated with any religion, his strategies and philosophies are Christian-based. 

In addition, you can find MB Radio on their website- they have a radio program where you can write your questions and Dr. Harley and his wife will invite you on the radio or read your email and gave their counseling for free- if you're in the US they will also give you one of their books for free. Dr. Harley and his wife have spoken to me and my husband and they helped us turn our marriage around. They are great to listen to but they are even better to speak with, and your H might get a lot out of speaking with them as well. 

One thing I noticed while reading your posts is, you are clearly a smart and capable woman. You have taken full accountability of your transgression and you have led a strong reckoning of it. You exposed yourself, you separated from your H, you aren't speaking at all about your exAP and it appears that you truly wish to reconcile but only if you can build a satisfactory marriage. 

I suspect that your H knows your strong morals and, combined with your ability to take charge and problem-solve, never imagined that you were reaching out for help. He never believed you would falter like this. He can't help but see all the work you're doing and maybe he trusts you now because you are so capable. I don't know that he is really "beta"; he might just be letting you do the work because you can and you are good at it. 

If you follow the Marriage Builders program, the conditions which led your affair will be resolved to every extent possible. The MB programs believe that marriage is a relationship where the spouses provide extraordinary care to the other. The Marriage is the primary relationship in life (second only to God.) MB recognizes that just about every decision made by one spouse affects the other, and decisions are made using their Policy of Joint Agreement. In this way, decisions about livelihood, religious service, parenting, in-laws, etc. are openly and honestly discussed, and resolutions are created. 

In other words, a lot of what you're feeling now and were feeling before the affair will be resolved. You will be your H's primary relationship and focus, you will not become behind church, in-laws, friends, anyone who seems to need him more than you do. 

Other than infidelity, the big issue that women post about on MB is exactly what you are describing: the H's lack of emotional connection with the W. You are not alone and your H can become aware of the problem. The vast majority of H's are able to fix it. 

At the same time, the two of you will spend a lot of time meeting the other's emotional needs, while avoiding behaviors that destroy love. They call it building a love bank. A built-up love bank leads to romantic feelings of being in love. This will bring your the happiness and passion you are searching for, if you and your H can work it out. 

Lastly, the MB program will help you tighten up your boundaries so that neither you nor your H find yourselves in situations where affairs are possible. No one can be 100% affair-proofed but you can get close. 

I wish you and your H luck. There are no guarantees that reconciliation will work, but there is a lot more work you can do, more effort to put in, so that you know you have given it everything you've got! And in the worst case, you will have built up great relationship skills for a future relationship. Still, I hope that your future relationship is a new marriage that you've built with your H.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

This is so sad. And Frankly unnatural. Francine. 

Here we have:
A loving women, 
With working parts.
With a working heart.
With a healthy bit of lust in her.

All the ingredients that a women needs to maintain her marriage.

And she marries a cold fish. Not even a warm water variety.

Don't waste your time on this, uh, person.
Divorce him and find a real man.

Live for yourself, not your family, friends and church.

My answer?
No, you cannot make a go of this marriage.

Another marriage? Sure.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

BadGrammar said:


> I disagree. A child is a blessing to a marriage and presents the opportunity to strengthen and reconfirm the marital bond. So, when you write "Having children distracted them from focusing solely on their marriage" you are excluding perhaps the most integral element of said marriage... the children.
> 
> To me, her description of the children as "distractors" makes them appear incidental to her childish inner struggle.
> 
> Where are you NoChoice?!


Children are not, and should not, be the most integral part of the marriage. If husband and wife do not have a strong marriage, the children will suffer. The marriage will suffer. The marriage will eventually be broken. 

However, I think you’re putting WAY too much emphasis on one sentence that you are interpreting in a different way than anyone else is. You’re making it seem like she doesn’t love her children, didn’t want her children, etc. when she has said no such thing. She’s stating that they had children which was another distraction from them focusing on THEIR bond. Not that they were an accident or a bad thing – just that in having them, the focus was again taken from them as husband and wife and put solely on the children. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...1111/who-comes-first-the-kids-or-the-marriage


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## Tito Santana (Jul 9, 2015)

trying2212 said:


> And as far as divorcing, I am in a frame of mind to consider it, but I want to be sure there are no other reasonable options. It's no more straightforward or less painful than trying to do the work on the front end. And even though divorce is less stigmatized in general these days, it's still pretty stigmatized for us. (Which, for me, is less about looking good yo others and more about the concern of having no supports for either of us should we decide to part ways.)


I can appreciate the fact that you are pretty much owning your affair and realize how wrong it was. I'm just a little confused about some stuff. Obviously, you weren't happy in your marriage beforehand. You stated you guys almost separated 3 times before, but your religious views stopped you. Why didn't those same religious views stop you from actually having a sexual relationship with another man? It would seem a trial separation would be much more accepted in religion than a physical affair with another man while married... Also, this "friend" knew what he was doing the whole time. He ended up getting what he wanted- he was no true friend of yours.

I wish you luck. I hope you find what you are looking for. I would say if you truly hold no attraction towards your H, you should divorce him. You keep mentioning what a good person he is. He deserves to be with someone that won't cheat on him and desires to be with him in all facets.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

RoseAglow said:


> Dr. Harley is a Christian and while his web-site is not affiliated with any religion, his strategies and philosophies are Christian-based.


This is quite true and is worth the time you will spend reading there. He and his staff are an excellent help and resource.

Another Christian site not affiliated with any specific sect is The Marriage Bed - they have a section devoted to infidelity and recovery.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

trying2212 said:


> And please don't hear this as me trying to make myself out to be the injured party. I'm not. I'm just as much to blame for the situation and entirely to blame for the A. I just know that the A had a lot of underlying issues with my marriage and I want to figure out how to give it everything I have. I am trying but I feel very hopeless and depressed even with the trying. H and I get together most nights to work out or watch tv after kids go to bed but even with renewed friendship, I feel no attra tion and that is just depreasing. We haven't been physical since a few months before the PA started (mostly due to stress and so many little kids) and I know that it will have to get figured out if we hope to stay together. So I need some feelings to follow. Or the hope that the feelings will follow.


You don't get it. When you say stuff like this you sound like a person with a leak in their downstairs ceiling saying, yeah I know I set my house on fire but we still have to fix that leaky tub. When you had the affair you pretty much took all of your power out of the relationship. Right now the ball is in his court, you have destroyed him, if you really want to heal this you need to be patient, work on yourself in the mean time. You have some serious issues to work on no matter what happens in your marriage. At least if you want to have healthy relationships in the future. Frankly fixing yourself should be taking up all of your emotional energy, and if you really got what you did it would. 

I mean come on, did you think having sex with another man is going to somehow repair you lack of intimacy? Does that make any sense? What is he supposed to want you more now? You are his wife who was with another man, again do you think that makes him want to be romantic with you? You are just being monumentally unfair and still totally selfish to a guy who you supposedly made vows to. Seems your love for him has always ended where ever your needs are concerned. By the way it's OK to have needs but you should have loved him enough to tell him, and if he wouldn't meet them move on so you both could keep your dignity.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Rob_1 said:


> TJW posted: "I'd like to propose that this man may be obeying his Lord in the ways and means that he has had Godly obedience explained and demonstrated to him in his family-of-origin and his church.
> His quick forgiveness, his restraint upon his own anger, and his willingness to proceed with his marriage in spite of his wife's affair may indeed be his value-system at work in his life.
> 
> There are many times in marriage where we men must decide just how to carry out the command of the Apostle Paul to "...love your wives as Christ loved the church, and gave Himself for it...". In many of these cases, this behavior we are called upon to carry out will not be seen as "alpha" and will not be seen as the worldly "attractive to women".
> ...


She is not attracted to him because he has not cultivated an emotional connection to her. The lesson here is you can be detached emotionally from your wife and expect her to be attracted to you. You need to talk and be a provider for her emotionally. Women don't need a financial provider in the long term anymore, so it is just a bad strategy to thing just financial provision is something that is going to keep her wanting you. For all we know this guy could be the Rock. She doesn't feel emotionally bonded to him, because it sounds like he is emotionally detached and doesn't even understand that this is one of his primary roles. 

Unfortunately she has now damaged him emotionally, if their was any chance it will be a lot harder because she is asking him to be vulnerable and she has shown no history of being safe and loyal, which is what is needed. He will need to completely change his mindset but the question is why would he want to do that for her now? I DO agree that rugsweeping makes you seem weak, but frankly most of the time it is done out of fear.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

I appreciate the feedback! I will definitely check out MB. It sounds like a great resource.

I want to address some other comments that have been made. First, I know that we Are just strangers coming together on the internet but please don't assume you know how I feel about my kids. They are two of the most important people in my world and I work really hard to do what's best for them (which I know will sound false considering what I've done, but it's absolutely the truth.) Any way you slice it, though, kids are wonderful and add a ton of meaning but they aren't partners. They can't help bear the burdens of adult life. And even though both of mine were very planned, they are very stressful as newborns. I think even a solid marriage would buckle a little under the weight of a new baby or two (or four). I do not regret my kids, but they have served to distract us from some unfilfillment in our relationship. And they have bonded us as parents, for sure. They are what we do best in life, hands down.

And I know that I have acted selfishly. Yes, my love and commitment to my H does appear to end where my needs started. I will say this, though, and he would agree: I spent years asking for what I needed very specifically. I needed a partner. I needed someone to help diffuse my frustrations with life while letting me know I was supported. I needed someone to comfort me when I was dad or get excited with me when I was excited. So I asked. And then I begged. And then I demanded. And then I just started telling myself that he didn't care. Especially when I came to him at the first hint that my friendship with this other man had turned a corner into a dangerous place and he remained unconcerned. It just reinforced my belief that he didn't care. And so, yes, I shocked myself and everyone I know by forming a relationship where I felt like someone cared. Our therapist describes it as a starving person stealing food just to get some sustenance. (It is in no way excusing the affair, just helping us understand how we got to where we are.)

I have learned so much from this experience, not the least of which is that sometimes it's not that people won't, it's that they cant. I needed things that H didn't have the ability to give me. He grew up in an invalidating, unemotional family so that is all he knew. I also know that I was not strong on my own before we married and we both lacked maturity or experience and so we essentially "played house" for years, taking a lot of unhelpful advice ong rhe way. Even as I grew more and more dissatisfied, I also lacked the tools to change. I thought if I kept clearly stating what I needed, eventually he would get it. If I threatened to leave he would get it. If I disengaged he would get it. He just never did until A.

I am 50% of our unhealthy marital patterns and 100% of the affair. I can be selfish and untrustworthy (a relatively new trait that I am struggling with so hard.) I can be anxious and controlling. I can be a lot of things that have contributed to our issues. I am working on myself. This thread is about what I can do, if anything, to re-engage and reconnect with my husband. I'm not trying to focus on what he needs to do. But I also don't trust myself to stay in a marriage where one or both of us feels unsupported or controlled or unloved. And I think we have both suffered these things (though it would be super easy to make the A the only issue. I think we could have moved past it if I had been a serial cheater who just didn't care. But that isn't us.)

So I appreciate the feedback and really appreciate hearing from people who have been through it and can share their experiences rebuilding a better marriage after A.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

trying2212 said:


> And please don't hear this as me trying to make myself out to be the injured party. I'm not. I'm just as much to blame for the situation and entirely to blame for the A.


YUP You are completely to blame. Unless your husband invited OM over, and pulled your legs apart for him, then the A is all on you. You could have told your husband that you needed to D, instead you just spread them for another guy. Whatever happens, it is YOUR FAULT. One cannot and will not place blame for an affair on the BETRAYED SPOUSE. As far as anything is concerned, never blame your spouse for your sh!tty behaviors. Me, if I were your husband, I would be actively in the market to REPLACE YOU. Once you made the decision to betray, all of it is on you.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@Taxman I'm sorry for whatever happened in your relationship. I have taken 100% responsibility for my affair. I haven't blame shifted or rug swept. I am just a normal human being trying to figure out how to learn from this and grow. I hope you find whatever you're looking for.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

Trying - I think you have owned this affair 100%. You are one of THE only people I’ve seen in my 2 years here that has come here on their own and owned their sh*t 110% from day one. That is incredibly rare here, and I’m seeing that some members just don’t want to see that. I’d encourage you to keep posting, keep growing and keep trying. You know the affair is on you, you know the problems you bring to the marriage and you know the problems you are facing. Keep working, you will get where you need to be. 

Is there anything that your husband does that sparks romantic love in you? I know that even when I’m angry at my husband – which is a lot lately – if he comes up behind me and puts his arms around me and puts his head on my shoulder…..I melt. We sleep with a Great Dane between us so cuddling isn’t the easiest, but he’ll reach out sometimes at night and all we can hold is pinkies, but the fact that our hands are connected, even in the smallest way makes my heart feel good. Yesterday he brought me crackers from the store he thought I’d like. “Just because”. I don’t eat crackers, but he thought the flavor sounded like something I’d like so he bought them. It made me feel nice. Is there anything like that that your husband does that stirs up those “I love him” feelings?


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@LosingHim Thanks for the encouragement. We have been managing this for about three months now and I am only just starting to move out of the self-defeating stage of just feeling like a horrible person and actually starting to work on things. Because everyone makes poor choices in their lives (not always the same ones, but poor choices nonetheless). I am human. I am learning. And nobody is going to be served if I just roll over and die because I made the choices I made.

I can look at my husband and feel love for him. I can appreciate how kind he has been and I can make room for the changes he is making and encourage him in his process. I like to hang out with him. We have actually spent more time together since separating than we did in the years before. He meets me at the gym and we walk the track together and talk. Or we spend Sunday nights together with the kids and do family stuff. We watch old episodes of Friends and hang out. And in those moments our relationship feels almost normal. But sometimes he tries to push us into a romantic place and I panic. I hyperventilate and cry and I apologize profusely but just can't seem to move past it. I am wondering if we just took things really slowly and built up the foundation from scratch, maybe things would just feel more naturally romantic one day. And then we could rebuild the romantic foundation. 

He is not unattractive. At all. But our romantic life was always a little stunted, like much of the rest of our life, based on the very conservative upbringing he had and general inexperience. It wasn't something we could ever talk easily about. I began to assume after a while that I just wasn't that into it. I found out during the A that that is not the case at all. With emotional intimacy came a physical desire unlike anything I have ever experienced (which I know is very taboo to discuss, but it's all part of the knot I'm trying to untangle.) It goes back to needing things my H can't give me (at least at this point.) And maybe the uncertainty I feel about ever having the same kind of emotional intimacy or physical intimacy in my marriage (and the knowledge that I never would have known any different if I hadn't allowed it in) is a bit crushing.

And please do not read this as we had a sexless marriage. We didnt. It was just more out of the sense that sex meant more to him than it did to me, so we had it pretty often because he felt loved and it felt connective for both of us. But it just was what it was.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

Why do you want to stay with this guy?


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@toblerone because he is the father of my children. He is the friend I have known the longest. He is kind and good and I can't imagine not having him in my life. I have a professional job and would be financially okay on my own so it isn't that. Its just that when you live with the mentality that divorce isnt an option for so many years it's a hard shift to make. He is a good person. I am a good person. We just have formed a lot of really toxic patterns and made choices in our relationship that have wounded the other very deeply. 

But I see how much better our kids do when they see both of us every day. And I have difficulty thinking I will feel significantly happier celebrating holidays without him or handing off kids every 3 days. He is my family. We were practically kids when we met. We know all the things nobody else knows about each other. Its not like every day of rhe last 10 years was miserable. Thats what made the A and coming to grips with our issues so difficult. We looked really good on paper and got really good at rug sweeping privately just so we could keep going when things got really bad. Now we have a chance to try something completely different and if there's a chance to preserve our family and legitimately have a good marriage, I don't want to cut and run prematurely.


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

LosingHim said:


> Children are not, and should not, be the most integral part of the marriage. If husband and wife do not have a strong marriage, the children will suffer. The marriage will suffer. The marriage will eventually be broken.
> 
> However, I think you’re putting WAY too much emphasis on one sentence that you are interpreting in a different way than anyone else is. You’re making it seem like she doesn’t love her children, didn’t want her children, etc. when she has said no such thing. She’s stating that they had children which was another distraction from them focusing on THEIR bond. Not that they were an accident or a bad thing – just that in having them, the focus was again taken from them as husband and wife and put solely on the children.


Ok. I guess you are right. Kids, pets, antique ceramic figurines. They are all pretty distracting.

Anyway, I just have one thing to add before leaving this thread. Believe it or not, unlike most folks here I have never been cheated on during a serious relationship. And I have had a couple. I am not a male model, a Mafia don, "alpha male" or any of that other nonsense. My secret? I only have relationships with ADULT WOMEN. These forums are full of tales of mentally adolescent females willingly spreading their legs for their latest crush... and damn the consequences! Adult women take into account the potentially devastating consequences of infidelity BEFORE seeking out or succumbing to the first guy who might "ring their bell." I am not speaking of women who are physically or mentally abused by their spouses. In such cases, escape of any kind is understandable (if not justified.) But a self-aware, intellectually independent woman possesses the ability to face and address situations or behaviors that may harm her family. She does not recklessly embrace the one thing that most certainly will ensure its destruction.

I understand, everyone is capable of actions that may harm or even destroy a relationship (I am raising my hand.) And everyone is deserving of forgiveness to some degree. That said, in the case of a marriage with children, a good parent selflessly musters the resolve to put family first. They fight like hell to save that family, and try to right their wrongs. They do not simply say "mea culpa" and ponder the question of whether or not to move on. From what I've read from the OP, her heart and her head are not in the fight. Her husband seems to have faced the situation in the only way he knows how. My heart goes out to him and the children. 

I hope that I am wrong about the OP. Let's see if she can rise to the occasion. 

Ciao!


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

trying2212 said:


> @toblerone because he is the father of my children. He is the friend I have known the longest. He is kind and good and I can't imagine not having him in my life. I have a professional job and would be financially okay on my own so it isn't that. Its just that when you live with the mentality that divorce isnt an option for so many years it's a hard shift to make. He is a good person. I am a good person. We just have formed a lot of really toxic patterns and made choices in our relationship that have wounded the other very deeply.


Not a word about love.


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

"He is not unattractive. At all. But our romantic life was always a little stunted, like much of the rest of our life, based on the very conservative upbringing he had and general inexperience. It wasn't something we could ever talk easily about. I began to assume after a while that I just wasn't that into it. I found out during the A that that is not the case at all. With emotional intimacy came a physical desire unlike anything I have ever experienced (which I know is very taboo to discuss, but it's all part of the knot I'm trying to untangle.) It goes back to needing things my H can't give me (at least at this point.) And maybe the uncertainty I feel about ever having the same kind of emotional intimacy or physical intimacy in my marriage (and the knowledge that I never would have known any different if I hadn't allowed it in) is a bit crushing."

I know... I said that I was leaving this thread. Apologies.

Perhaps if you had taken the initiative to encourage a more exciting sex life together, you might not be in this pickle. Was he averse to trying new things? Not everybody has the know-how straight out of the gates to enjoy crazy monkey sex... but almost everybody has the ability to learn. Sadly, your infidelity may have put the kibosh on this approach. He may see the move to spice things up as an attempt on your part to relive the excitement of your affair. In any case, if you were truly committed to saving your marriage, you would give it a try. He may surprise you. Unfortunately, it sounds like you are not willing to go that route. In your mind, this is all but over. You are trying to save face, not your marriage. No offense, but I am glad I never ran across your type. Poor dude.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@BadGrammar I'm glad your relationships have been so fulfilling. I will not attempt to answer your complaints against me as you don't know me at all and it seems like you have zero interest in seeing anything positive about me. Which is fine. Because I know me and I know that I'm an okay human who is just as flawed as anyone else and I'm learning every day. I'm not going to excuse my actions but I'm also not going to live my life being browbeaten by strangers on the internet over it. I'm going to keep asking for shared experiences and do the work in the time it takes. And I'm not going to feel bad about it. It took 10 years and an affair to get to where we are and jumping into bed with my husband at this point just to prove I want to fix it is only a band aid on a bullet hole.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

And @Malaise if you had read the above posts you would have seen that I do mention loving my husband but it really feels moot at this point. You can argue it any way you want I suppose: "She cheated so clearly she didn't love him. Why doesn't she just divorce him so he can find someone who actually loves him?" Because love is complex and I believe it changes. I don't want it to go back to the adolescent, uncertain, stagnant love we had before. I would legitimately like to try for something that meets everyone's needs and leaves everyone feeling a bit more than just committed for commitment's sake. So do I love my husband? Yeah. In the best way I know how to right now.


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

trying2212 said:


> And @Malaise if you had read the above posts you would have seen that I do mention loving my husband but it really feels moot at this point. You can argue it any way you want I suppose: "She cheated so clearly she didn't love him. Why doesn't she just divorce him so he can find someone who actually loves him?" Because love is complex and I believe it changes. I don't want it to go back to the adolescent, uncertain, stagnant love we had before. I would legitimately like to try for something that meets everyone's needs and leaves everyone feeling a bit more than just committed for commitment's sake. So do I love my husband? Yeah. In the best way I know how to right now.


Gee whiz!

Time for you to take stock of what you have and what you are going to lose if you continue down this prevaricating path. You have a good man, who for some reason, wants to stay committed to your marriage... and you have young children for G-d's sake! 
If your sex life sucks, take charge and let the good times roll. Try anything and everything. Get some sexy lingerie, toys, whatever. Maybe love is complex and it changes, but you have the ability to steer it in the right direction ... and it sounds like you have a willing partner to help you take it there. Honestly, it sounds like you are still stuck on the OM. Picture yourself in a life or death situation. Who do you want by your side? Your man or Mr. Goodbar? Because that is where you are. 

Others here may offer you cute stories about hugs from behind and designer crackers... and pat you on the back for "owning the affair." I may be a novice here, but I see a woman limping toward the abyss, and taking her family down with her.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@BadGrammar, Ijust feel like I should reiterate my previous statement: you don't know me. You don't get a say in anyone's life but your own. You can sit at home lambasting strangers on the internet for all you are worth but at the end of the day, who is it impacting? People come here looking for help and advice and shared experience. I have asked specifically about people who have reconciled after an affair (something you claim to know nothing about, with your mature relationships). So, with all due respect, why not just leave well enough alone and go find some other stranger to criticize? Thanks for all your input.


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

trying2212 said:


> @BadGrammar, Ijust feel like I should reiterate my previous statement: you don't know me. You don't get a say in anyone's life but your own. You can sit at home lambasting strangers on the internet for all you are worth but at the end of the day, who is it impacting? People come here looking for help and advice and shared experience. I have asked specifically about people who have reconciled after an affair (something you claim to know nothing about, with your mature relationships). So, with all due respect, why not just leave well enough alone and go find some other stranger to criticize? Thanks for all your input.


Will do. Honestly, just trying to help. Like I said, I am a novice here. I do not take pleasure in criticizing you or viewing your situation. It truly breaks my heart. Perhaps, I relate my feelings in an obtuse manner, but my intent was only to bring a fresh perspective. Fail.

Not all of my relationships have been "mature", and I have had a few failures. The thing about not ever being cheated on is true. However. i do know what it is like to long for someone who has gone from my life... even while realizing that their absence was the best option.

Anyway, I really do wish that you find your way back to love with your husband. He sounds like a very good man. I hope to some day read here that you are back in the loving embrace of your family.

Best of luck,

BG

BTW. Have you thought of arranging to meet your husband at cheap motel? One that rents rooms by the hour? You never know what might happen.


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

trying2212,

Just one more thing. It's true, I have not experienced infidelity. However, I have witnessed its impact first-hand. Ten years ago, my oldest and only brother discovered his wife's infidelity. They had been married 25 years, and had 2 beautiful daughters. My brother was head over heels in love with his wife from the day they met.

As children, we slept in the same twin bed. He was my protector. Together, we faced tragedy (the suicide of our mother - he was 14 and I was 7.) 

As an adult he advanced from machinist in a sheet metal shop to head of Southern European sales for a major automobile manufacturer. In good times and bad he had a boisterous optimism... until he discovered his wife's infidelity. I watched him collapse physically and emotionally, and I was at a loss as to help. I had never seen him in such a state...even following the death of our mother. For months, he hardly ate. Out of nowhere, he would begin crying like a wounded animal. Then he would seem to get better. Then he would get quiet. Then he would get angry, Then he would cry uncontrollably again. Then she left him for the other man, and he got worse. He couldn't work anymore, so he took an early retirement. Eventually, he did get better... and he even found a wonderful girlfriend. Still to this day, even after the birth of his twin grandsons, he will suddenly get quiet. You can see that he is still wounded.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

There are a few things that need to be sorted out in what you keep saying.

First, whether you like it or not you have been justifying the affair and blaming your husband for it while "taking full ownership of your affair". You need to be clear - your husband is not to blame for your affair. You and your predatory POS AP are! Whatever your husband was or wasn't doing for you, you didn't need to cheat or discuss it with another man.

Second - did you enjoy the sex with the POS OM ? It is highly unlikely that you did not because this went on for 8 months. So the real question is "was it better than with your conservative husband?" I believe I know the answer to this but an honest reply from you will actually help you.

Third - did you love the POS OM? Again the answer is probably yes because this went on for 8 months and it is unlikely that you had no feelings for him.

Fourth - you may love (more like than love) your husband but you are certainly not in love with him. You like him because he is good company and a good father.

Fifth - in order to keep the affair going you must not only be a cheater but also a good liar. Being good at this is not conducive to a healthy marriage.

So you do not love your husband, enjoyed good sex with another man that you do love and have the comfort of believing in your mind that this was all your husband's fault although for the purposes of this forum you agree to "own your cheating" whatever that means.

Also you are now considering divorce because it is the "right thing to do possibly" and if you do stay it will be for the kids.

I hope you see how very wrong this is and you haven't got a hope in hell of helping and healing yourself if you do not come clean with yourself.

Whatever your husband's faults, you have some serious ones that you need to deal with first.

Oh, and your POS AP is NOT a good person. He is a predatory creep.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@manfromlamancha I am not trying to justify my actions. I do take full responsibility for A. I now see that I could have left, but at the time I had years of built up messages telling me I couldn't. Still, the affair was my choice in the end, and I do own that.

What people on these and other sites fail to recognize is that it is very intoxicating to pretend like people who cheat are just horrible people with weak morals and no regard for anyone but themselves. We can't possibly understand the hurt or damage we have done because who would do such a thing knowing it would hurt and damage other people? Broken, hurt, flawed people, that's who (and that a capability ALL of us have, no matter how much you tell yourself you would NEVER. I never thought I would.) 

As to the specifics of A, of course feelings were involved! The first 4 months that I call EA were an open friendship that freely involved H AND OM. H had complete access to all communication and I never saw om on my own. We were very good friends until feelings were expressed by OM and things escalated very quickly. Actual A only lasted for about 3 weeks before I first tried to end things and told my H everything. Turns out lying really doesn't suit me. I have spent weeks trying to end things with OM completely and have been honest with H every step of the way (because one thing I have learned is that I can't live the double life.)

I am not blaming H for the affair. I am not even blaming him entirely for the breakdown of our marriage, because that took both of us. But there is always context. Because I specifically wrote this post to ask help with marriage recovery efforts, not help with the A itself, it seemed relevant to mention the context. If I am considering divorce it had more to do with myself than either of these men. I don't trust myself anymore. I no longer have a good sense of who I am or what I would do because I spent my whole life believing I would never do this. I am trying to gather bearings and see if I can invest in a relationship where I don't trust myself or the foundation of the relationship itself.


Choose to read it how you will, but in the end only you guys are focusing on who's at fault anymore. I am just trying to get some advice on how to fix the situation, freely focusing on my issues but refusing to be the scapegoat of my relationship. Because that's not real life and no marriage can survive like that anyway. Thanks for your input.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@BadGrammar I'm sorry about what happened to your brother. Obviously, not knowing the specifics of their situation I can't comment on it but is sounds incredibly painful. I would just be wary of projecting the pain of your experience onto others and translating your circumstances onto the lives of others. Infidelity is wrong and hurtful on so many levels and I am only just reaching below the surface of that truth at this point in the process, I'm sure, but not all situations are your situation. Not all women who cheat are the woman who cheated on him. Take care.


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## RoseAglow (Apr 11, 2013)

Well, OP, you are getting to experience why we have so few wayward spouses on TAM.  There's a saying, "Take what you need and leave the rest". I would consider each post but don't feel badly about disregarding those posts that don't apply to you.

Keep your head up. Infidelity is sadly, very common. Of course wayward spouses often (although not always) do love their betrayed spouse, even in the midst of doing a truly horrific act against them. Many people do go on to recover their marriage, although not many hang out here on this board. This board is great for personal recovery but only a handful of regulars have successfully recovered a marriage. Again, not to say that you should disregard all the posts that sting, but simply to add another perspective- personal recovery is the bias of this board.

I think your assessment of why you want to try to recover your marriage is right on target. The best case scenario for you, your H, and your kids is for you and your H to build a strong and happy marriage. I suspect that it's not a case of "can't" or "won't" for your H, but he probably just doesn't know how- just like you didn't know how to resolve your marital issues prior to the affair. Unfortunately, there is no "marital how-to" book provided to most people when they get married. 

A couple absolutely can set themselves up for marital failures, including affairs, or success. You can make success much more likely by setting up your marriage and environment in a way that is protective and nurturing. You can educate yourself on what seems to make marriages most successful and what to avoid. Obviously I am huge MB fan- I just like how they structure things, it makes sense to me and it's simple program. John Gottman is also really good, from what I've read. 

You describe a difficult marriage before the affair, prior disruptions, and a lot of struggles. As you state, it was your decision to step out of the marriage. It's pretty clear to me that you own this. Your actions were highly destructive in an already unstable marriage. I think there is a lot you and your H can do to heal and to fix your marriage overall.

Moving forward, if you and your H are going to build something new together, you will want to re-structure your marriage. In MB language, you'll want to create very strong marital boundaries to reduce the opportunities of future affairs. You and your H will spend a lot of time together, having fun, meeting the emotional needs that build love quickly. You'll get to know each other's top emotional needs overall and you'll learn to meet them. This also builds love and trust. You and your H will create a plan to resolve conflicts. You'll learn how to communicate openly and honestly. You'll learn what the biggest "love busters" are- actions that destroy love- and how to avoid them. You will act precisely to remove anything in your life that does not support your marriage and you and your H together will choose activities, friends, environments that support marriage. 

If you and your H can do these things, it will go a long way towards building a strong and happy marriage. In addition though, you will want to provide your H what MB calls "just compensation." This is what will help your H heal and learn to truly trust you again. It's your commitment to him. You will be open, honest, have strong and transparent boundaries (never speaking to the AP again, never looking at his social media, completing removing him from your life), you will work to meet his needs and help him meet yours, you will work to make a strong and happy marriage with him. You will work to make a much better marriage with him than you had before the affair. He will need to do his part, too, but he is the wounded person here. You can never undo the affair or make it up to him, but you can work so that his decision to stay was a good one, you can make a new marriage worth staying for. It will need to be worth staying for you as well, and if he joins in and you work together, it almost certainly be worth it for both of you. A common statement you hear from couples who have successfully recovered is, "We are so grateful to have each other and our family, and we came so close to losing it." 

You have every reason in the world to try to recover your marriage. You're feeling stuck now, and this is fairly normal, I think. I truly hope you and your H are able to find each other and go on to build a happier life together. If not, you will know you put everything you had into trying to make it work. But if you can get your H on-board, I'll bet you will find success.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

I hope you understand that my post was intended to be a wake up call for you to take a good look in the mirror and see what you need to see. And this needs to happen before you try the MarriageBuilders stuff etc. 

On a separate note I do think that you are beginning to understand the difference between your husbands shortcomings and dealing with that AND going out and cheating which is very separate and usually down to a character flaw that can be fixed.

On a personal note - I do hope that the two of you work it out. I hope that somehow your husband gets hit by a lightning bolt and starts to treat you like his wife and not a room mate etc. I also hope you tell the AP to fvck himself and shame on him (and you) for doing this.

Get your husband and yourself out of infidelity and into a reconciliation plan.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

trying2212 said:


> @toblerone because he is the father of my children.


That isn't a reason to want to stay with him. Plenty of people have grown up just fine when the parents were divorced. Here's another thing: will your children grow up with a stunted view on how relationships should work based on yours with your husband?



> He is the friend I have known the longest.


That isn't a reason to want to stay with him. I have friends from a very long time ago. Sometimes friends grow apart.



> He is kind and good and I can't imagine not having him in my life.


That isn't a reason to want to stay with him. You can still have him in your life as your ex-husband, especially if you share custody. It also isn't rare that people remain friendly after divorce.



> Its just that when you live with the mentality that divorce isnt an option for so many years it's a hard shift to make.


Well, I think you should consider making that shift.



> But I see how much better our kids do when they see both of us every day. And I have difficulty thinking I will feel significantly happier celebrating holidays without him or handing off kids every 3 days.


People adapt.

You know, it really sounds like you just need to let this guy go on with his life instead of hanging on to him.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@manfromlamancha, I appreciate what you are trying to say. I am well aware of my situation and my own shortcomings. I am the kind of person that overproccesses until I spin out and get stuck. I have been hyper-processing this situation for months, mapping out patterns and my pieces of the equation and setting goals. I've finally moved out into a place where I can start trying to take steps forward, so if it seems like I'm not going to accept a wholly negative interpretation of me at this point it's because I won't. Staying stuck in self loathing and defeat literally helps nobody. I don't find my character flawed; I find myself capable of making the same poor choices all of us are capable of. I find myself not nearly as mature or steady as I once thought. I find a lot of things to look at about myself that make me cringe. But I'm not about to take on shame from anybody else based on the choices I have made. I have my own shame to manage without allowing strangers to shame me. As for the AP, i really won't comment on him. If I want to make a go of it, I have to get some distance from even thinking about him, much less telling him to do anything to himself or anyone else. Thanks!


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

trying2212 said:


> @BadGrammar I'm sorry about what happened to your brother. Obviously, not knowing the specifics of their situation I can't comment on it but is sounds incredibly painful. I would just be wary of projecting the pain of your experience onto others and translating your circumstances onto the lives of others. Infidelity is wrong and hurtful on so many levels and I am only just reaching below the surface of that truth at this point in the process, I'm sure, but not all situations are your situation. Not all women who cheat are the woman who cheated on him. Take care.


I don't believe I am projecting the pain of personal experience, but maybe so. That said, isn't recounting instances of infidelity and the destruction that follows one of the main reasons this forum exists? I didn't post to tell a sad story... and it is very sad. I posted to reiterate that infidelity in marriage carries a long-term and unavoidable human cost. And when infidelity is followed by abandonment, the cost is magnified. Obviously, my brother's story is not unique or even uncommon. The fact that it is so common and varies so little from the other tales on this site is the true lesson. 

I have posted on your thread not because I chose to pick on you. I have posted on your thread because, unlike most other unfaithful spouses, I believe that you have the opportunity and maybe even the will to do right by your family and ultimately yourself. Perhaps my approach has been too simplistic, and I am sorry for that. Perhaps you need to follow the standard sequence of rebuilding exercises advised by the more senior members of this site. I don't know. Sadly, from your most recent posts I seem to see your doubts about your marriage growing and your resolve to recommit to that marriage waning. What I do know is that with diligence and resilience of spirit most people are capable of accomplishing tasks they once thought impossible, especially when the stakes are so very high. Some are even capable of finding love and desire where they thought there was none. I know that you will do what you will do, and no amount of advice or chastisement will change that fact.

I am just saddened that I sense you are giving up. That may not be helpful, but it is honest. As you said, I don't know you or even the finer details of your situation. But, I feel for you and for your family... and I am still rooting for you to find your way back to them.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

BadGrammar said:


> Gee whiz!
> 
> Time for you to take stock of what you have and what you are going to lose if you continue down this prevaricating path. You have a good man, who for some reason, wants to stay committed to your marriage... and you have young children for G-d's sake!
> If your sex life sucks, take charge and let the good times roll. Try anything and everything. Get some sexy lingerie, toys, whatever. Maybe love is complex and it changes, but you have the ability to steer it in the right direction ... and it sounds like you have a willing partner to help you take it there. Honestly, it sounds like you are still stuck on the OM. Picture yourself in a life or death situation. Who do you want by your side? Your man or Mr. Goodbar? Because that is where you are.
> ...


I do not condone cheating nor cheating and the OP is a cheater. Regardless of how bad a marriage is the decent thing to do is get a divorce and move on acting as co parents. Having said all of that it is clear that the H does not meet her needs at all and does not seem to have any urgency in meeting those needs. There are many spouses like this and they need divorce papers to change if at all. It appears OP has almost reached the point of no return but is hanging on for the kids.
Her BH should present her with divorce papers and decided it is time to find a woman who will not go off and have an A when things get rough.


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

aine said:


> I do not condone cheating nor cheating and the OP is a cheater. Regardless of how bad a marriage is the decent thing to do is get a divorce and move on acting as co parents. Having said all of that it is clear that the H does not meet her needs at all and does not seem to have any urgency in meeting those needs. There are many spouses like this and they need divorce papers to change if at all. It appears OP has almost reached the point of no return but is hanging on for the kids.
> Her BH should present her with divorce papers and decided it is time to find a woman who will not go off and have an A when things get rough.


I understand "needs." Food, shelter, sunshine and air. Love, family, sound health and prosperity are are the benefits of leading a good life. All of those things have to be earned, and once earned they must be sustained, protected and fought for. This lady needs to FIGHT before it's too late. If she doesn't, all she will have left is her "needs."


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@BadGrammar, I really do appreciate your input. I'm not giving up. I would have done it months ago if I was just going to give up. I really want to try to make things work, but not to the extent that what we put together is the same marriage we had before. It was really unhealthy, a death of a million papercuts, my H likes to say. And I brought a gun to the paper fight. 

I came here looking for advice from other people who had successfully navigated R and had built a new and better relationship. I have really appreciated the advice I have gotten in that vein. I guess I was trying to see if there was a way to "fake it til you make it," just practicing new ways of being until they felt right.

This is not about H. He has made his position clear: he wants to change our relationship. He has never stopped loving me, as angry as he feels/felt about A (he chooses to blame AP for much, though I try to keep him aware that I was just as much to blame). He will not allow this incident to ruin every good thing we have together. He doesnt like me telling other people about my A, because he doesnt want them to think that wholly represenrs who I am. He undetstands the complexity of our situation in a way that makes me WANT to fight for this man and this marriage. I just have never had the experience of wanting to do something but feeling so hopeless about it. 

But I am fighting for us, too. We separated so we could clearly address the issues and have some space to find ourselves again, to figure out what we want/need and how to listen when approached by the other. And I am trying to find some hope that the feeling of being in love can be found after walking this out for a while. Because hopelessness in a relationship is a silent killer. 

As far the poster who said he deserved someone who won't have an A as soon as things get rough, I agree. And he has that. Things have been rough for 8 years. I cheated in a blaze of unthinking, unfeeling stupidity after 8 years of marriage that had left both of us pretty depleted. Life is too complex to generalize people and their situations. 

I hope we can all give each other a break and remember that everyone is doing the best they can with the tools and knowledge they have at the time. Even something as terrible as infidelity had the power to transform people and relationships, for better or worse. I'm hopeful that the work i/we do now will yield positivity and growth. It just helps to come together with others who have been through it and can lend their experience when you don't have any idea how to get started or where you're going.


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

I am glad to hear this. It made my day. 

Best,

BG


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@RoseAglow thanks for hanging in there with the encouragement. I appreciate your wisdom and grace. I also wanted to say that Gottman is a really amazing resource. I actually read two of his books during the three weeks of the initial A and they were what helped me to get out of the confusion and craziness of the A to approach my husband and come clean. I realized in reading his books that I hadn't just had a fling in a moment of recklessness due to overwhelming stress.

Our marriage was in trouble (which should have been really obvious at the moment of the A, but really want for me. I wandered through the A alternatively feeling drunk with happiness and filled with confusion about why I was doing it. I would tell AP that I wasn't going to leave H for him, that I was happy, that everything was fine. That I was just overhelemed and wanted a place to go where someone had no expectations of me for A little while. He simply asked why I was with him if I was so happy with H. That question torpedoed all of my defenses, pushed me into therapy and Gottman and deep soul searching and pretty quickly confession).

We actually attended a Gottman conference at the beginning of October and hearing Gottman and his wife talk about these issues from a personal as well as a research standpoint was amazing. But it was also where I realized that we could go through the motions and do all the "right" things but they may not immediately yield the emotions that I think are going to be necessary to build actual intimacy. I have been accused of checking boxes when I met my husband and that is probably very true. I was very young and I wanted the stability, the looks good on paper and we were very good friends so it all seemed to fit. I now know that marriage can have a foundation of friendship but also needs to cultivate the intimacy and the passion or you leave yourselves really vulnerable. I am learning a ton through this and I am grateful for it, even though it hurts (and H would say the same.) Thanks!


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I think you are on the right track. As for true remorse I don't see that yet. You feel guilty and wrong for hurting your mate, you feel dirty for engaging in an extramarital affair, and you feel stupid for duping yourself and letting the OM dupe you. You will feel true remorse when you take your husband's pain and make it your own, and don't think he isn't in pain just because he hides it well and keeps a stiff chin. You have wounded him to his core, but he sounds like a man with white knight syndrome so he thinks he has to put on a brave front for you so you won't lose any more respect for him than you already had before the affair. 

When I look at a cheating scenario like yours, the biggest culprit is your step-by-step lowering of your boundaries. You took what boundaries you had and threw them away when you made the choices to cheat, one by one, in progressive succession. Now your biggest hurdle, as I see it, is to build up new boundaries for yourself. You will have to hold yourself accountable because your husband is not there to do so since you are separated. I would recommend you sit down and make a list of the boundaries you let fall when you first started going down the dark path with your OM. List them, and then make a plan on how to re-build them. 

What are your boundaries around men like? Do you flirt with men? Do you let yourself get into situations where you are alone with other men? Do you allow men to make inappropriate comments to you, or talk to you about things they shouldn't? Do you have a tendency to share aspects of your personal and married life with other men that you should only be sharing with your husband? Those are the kinds of questions you should be asking yourself. 

As for separation, I can only say that do not let it go on too long. I'm an advocate for separating if the end goal is divorce, or if the betrayed spouse is so angry and hurt that they cannot stand to be around you. This is not what appears to be your case. I think the longer you stay away from your husband the longer it is going to take you to reestablish your bond with him. Understand, when you connected with your OM, you had to completely disconnect from your husband. You gave yourself to him completely. It will take time to re-connect with your husband, and you cannot do that when the two of you are geographically separated. See, it goes both ways: the longer you stay away, the more and more used he gets to you being gone, and he will start detaching, and the gulf will just get wider and wider. You may feel secure in his love for you right at the moment, but don't bet your future on it. He may, at some point say "to hell with it" and cut you off. We have seen it happen here on TAM before. 

But before you go back you really need to ask yourself if it is even worth the effort. Frankly, when I read your posts I'm just not seeing the feelings jump off the page. You are living in Ambivalenceville right now, and you need to come to a decision as to whether you really want to fall in love with your husband again. If you don't see it happening, then do the right thing and set him free. If you want to save your marriage, then save your marriage. No in between. No try. Either do it or don't do it.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

BadGrammar said:


> Others here may offer you cute stories about hugs from behind and designer crackers... and pat you on the back for "owning the affair." I may be a novice here, but I see a woman limping toward the abyss, and taking her family down with her.


Really? What is your deal? You know NOTHING about my marriage. To even throw this in as a dig towards me just makes me wonder even more what you’re doing on an infidelity forum, when you’ve not experienced infidelity. I’ve been posting here for 2 years, trying to save my own marriage and trying as hard as I can to help others too and you want to come out of nowhere making remarks about hugs from behind and designer crackers? I gave very small instances of something my husband had done as recently as this past weekend that made me actually have a small smidgeon of hope that he cared about me, that made me feel love towards him – asking her if there were any things like that that made her feel love towards her husband. Small potatoes, sure. I was trying to give simple examples, to see if there were even little small things that made her feel love towards him. I’m so sorry some of us here aren’t so mature and grand in our love lives. Good grief.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@bandit.45 thanks for the input. I think you are right about ambivalence. I wonder, though, how many people who jump into fixing or divorcing in the early phases really get to the root of where their relationship was at and where they are honestly after the A. Our MC has asked us to sit with our own ambivalence over the life of H's apartment lease because the urge to make snap decisions is strong in both of us and has never served us very well. So we are sitting in ambivalence and discomfort, spending time trying to build whatever connection we can while paying attention to how it feels. I know it may sound silly but sitting with the ambivalence, not covering it up, not distracting from it, is allowing both of us to take stock in ourselves and our relationship in a way we never have. That's why I came here. Because I assumed that if we sat with it I would start seeing the feelings come back. What i am hearing from advice here and elsewhere is that it may not be something you can force, and learning to be less controlling is something I am working on. So we wait and work and see what happens. Thanks!


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

LosingHim said:


> Really? What is your deal? You know NOTHING about my marriage. To even throw this in as a dig towards me just makes me wonder even more what you’re doing on an infidelity forum, when you’ve not experienced infidelity. I’ve been posting here for 2 years, trying to save my own marriage and trying as hard as I can to help others too and you want to come out of nowhere making remarks about hugs from behind and designer crackers? I gave very small instances of something my husband had done as recently as this past weekend that made me actually have a small smidgeon of hope that he cared about me, that made me feel love towards him – asking her if there were any things like that that made her feel love towards her husband. Small potatoes, sure. I was trying to give simple examples, to see if there were even little small things that made her feel love towards him. I’m so sorry some of us here aren’t so mature and grand in our love lives. Good grief.


Sorry, I was thinking of the OP's situation at the time. I was jogging my memory for instances where contributors posted items that were, let's say... less than assertive. Honestly, I could not even remember who had written said item. I see now that it was insensitive and wrong. My bad. Didn't mean to take a personal jab at you. I actually think it is great that you share those tender moments with your H. In any case, I related your words out of context from the original intent and spirit of your post.

Regarding not having experienced infidelity... well you are right there. But if you look a little deeper into the thread you will see a post regarding witnessing firsthand my only brother's complete breakdown following his wife's infidelity and subsequent abandonment. I know that witnessing a loved one's agony is not the same as experiencing the agony itself... but it has shaped my views on the subject. 

Once again. Apologies. In the future, I will make the effort to be more considerate.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Methinks you are a bit too sure you know what your husband is thinking and feeling. It would seem you think you have all the time in the world, or at least until his lease is up.

Just don't wait too long. I came to enjoy my freedom as a man living by myself very quickly. Just saying. 

It would seem it is your husband who is wanting the marriage, so the onus is on you to decide whether it is a go-ahead. You are in a very lucky position for an offending spouse. Most waywards are chasing their BSs begging to let them back in to their lives. You have a BS who has the door open to you. Don't waste that invitation. 

Can I ask something? Why is he living in an apartment?


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

BadGrammar said:


> Sorry, I was thinking of the OP's situation at the time. I was jogging my memory for instances where contributors posted items that were, let's say... less than assertive. Honestly, I could not even remember who had written said item. I see now that it was insensitive and wrong. My bad. Didn't mean to take a personal jab at you. I actually think it is great that you share those tender moments with your H. In any case, I related your words out of context from the original intent and spirit of your post.
> 
> Regarding not having experienced infidelity... well you are right there. But if you look a little deeper into the thread you will see a post regarding witnessing firsthand my only brother's complete breakdown following his wife's infidelity and subsequent abandonment. I know that witnessing a loved one's agony is not the same as experiencing the agony itself... but it has shaped my views on the subject.
> 
> Once again. Apologies. In the future, I will make it a point to be more considerate.


My sister had cancer. It affected me deeply. If I didn’t care so much about anonymity, I’d invite you to go look at my facebook posts from 3 years ago about her fighting her battle, the things that I was doing to help and support her, the effect it was having on my family. The praise I received from so many people in my life because I took on so many of the things that had to do with her and her cancer, the strangers that were reaching out to me because of how much ‘in your face’ presence I had trying to raise money to help her, support for her, volunteers to help her with transportation, yard work, child care, etc. It affected me GREATLY. But……..I still didn’t have cancer. I didn’t go through chemo, I didn’t have to give myself shots, my hair didn’t fall out, I didn’t lose 40 pounds and not eat for days because I was so sick, I didn’t have my breast cut off. I sympathized and empathized with her greatly. I cared a ton. I hated seeing her go through it and it hurt. But *I* still didn’t have cancer. I never want anyone to ever get cancer because now that I’ve seen it so close – it affects me more than it ever did. But……..I still can’t feel what she felt or know what she knows or carry what she carries, because *I* didn’t have cancer.

I don’t begrudge you your opinion, and I’m not even saying a lot of your advice has been bad. But to show up on an infidelity forum, with such strong opinions and a nature that seems to insult people (whether intentionally or not) when people are trying to get help and trying to help…….I don’t know….rubs me the wrong way. There are people on this forum who have not been cheated or have cheated themselves on who still give solid advice – Sokillme, Dierdre, Turnera to name a few, so I’m not saying it can’t be done, or that it’s not appreciated. But man…….you sure do come on strong.


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@bandit.45 he is living in an apartment because it was the arrangement that worked best for us. We wanted the kids to stay in the house and since I work 3 days a week and am home two days a week, we have a nanny for only the three days I'm at work. My staying in the house allows the kids to stick to their schedule and for us not to pay for more childcare. I offered to move out but ultimately this arrangement made the most sense for us.


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

LosingHim said:


> My sister had cancer. It affected me deeply. If I didn’t care so much about anonymity, I’d invite you to go look at my facebook posts from 3 years ago about her fighting her battle, the things that I was doing to help and support her, the effect it was having on my family. The praise I received from so many people in my life because I took on so many of the things that had to do with her and her cancer, the strangers that were reaching out to me because of how much ‘in your face’ presence I had trying to raise money to help her, support for her, volunteers to help her with transportation, yard work, child care, etc. It affected me GREATLY. But……..I still didn’t have cancer. I didn’t go through chemo, I didn’t have to give myself shots, my hair didn’t fall out, I didn’t lose 40 pounds and not eat for days because I was so sick, I didn’t have my breast cut off. I sympathized and empathized with her greatly. I cared a ton. I hated seeing her go through it and it hurt. But *I* still didn’t have cancer. I never want anyone to ever get cancer because now that I’ve seen it so close – it affects me more than it ever did. But……..I still can’t feel what she felt or know what she knows or carry what she carries, because *I* didn’t have cancer.
> 
> I don’t begrudge you your opinion, and I’m not even saying a lot of your advice has been bad. But to show up on an infidelity forum, with such strong opinions and a nature that seems to insult people (whether intentionally or not) when people are trying to get help and trying to help…….I don’t know….rubs me the wrong way. There are people on this forum who have not been cheated or have cheated themselves on who still give solid advice – Sokillme, Dierdre, Turnera to name a few, so I’m not saying it can’t be done, or that it’s not appreciated. But man…….you sure do come on strong.


Understood.

Just one thing. In recounting your sister's battle with cancer and your selfless support throughout that ordeal, I daresay you make a point. But perhaps not the one you intended. It is true, you did not have cancer. However, does this mean that your impulse to help her was unwarranted or unwelcome? I realize that infidelity is not cancer, and this only a topic related forum. But let me put forth my own, albeit hypothetical example...

If I witness a crime, let's say a physical assault, Is my witnessing of said crime of no value to those who seek to understand the circumstances surrounding or even the motivation behind that assault? What if I know both the perpetrator and the victim? Isn't my value as a witness at least marginally enhanced? Maybe not. Maybe that just makes me biased toward the victim. But, he or she is after all... the victim.

Of course I am not alone in thinking that marital infidelity inflicts plenty of collateral damage. As with a grenade, those closest to the blast suffer the gravest injury. In most cases, it's usually the children...especially the little ones. I am most certainly not a victim of marital infidelity. I have simply viewed a bit of the carnage.

Anyway, I don't want to be a party crasher, if that's what this is.

Best, BG


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

trying2212 said:


> @bandit.45 he is living in an apartment because it was the arrangement that worked best for us. We wanted the kids to stay in the house and since I work 3 days a week and am home two days a week, we have a nanny for only the three days I'm at work. My staying in the house allows the kids to stick to their schedule and for us not to pay for more childcare. I offered to move out but ultimately this arrangement made the most sense for us.


Gotcha. Does he come to the house to see the kids?


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

This is not about rushing to divorce or reconciliation as you seem to think you are being urged to do. It is about finding out what was wrong with the relationship in the first place. But before doing this, you need to accept character flaws and not see it as someone judging you without knowing you. It is about the collective wisdom of TAM in having seen this many many times before.

You still do not accept that what you did and what the POSOM did as bad (forget about wrong). You "will not comment on the AP". And you "will not accept character judgement". However you will say that what your husband did to you was bad (not just wrong). And then (as per the title of your thread) you are stuck. 

I am not sure what you are looking for here. People to tell you that you are doing the right thing ? You cannot get to the bottom of this without seeing clearly and accepting how bad it is.

Anyway good luck with this. At this stage I would say send your stbxh here - he could do with help.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@manfromlamancha I stand by what I said. I'm not looking for acceptance or approval. Perhaps this thread would have been better posted in the reconciliation thread because it seems like the people who hang out in this one are extremely stuck in some sort of feedback loop where all people can be painted with the same brush strokes and nobody wants to see that nothing about people's lives are as black and white as you seem to want to make them. I never said my husband was bad or implied that I dont have my stuff to work on. I just refuse to be shamed by STRANGERS. I don't have to account to anyone but my H. I appreciate the feedback from people who actually read what I was asking for and provided useful feedback. To everyone else I say I hope you find what you're looking for. You're not going to get it here.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

What struck me was that you said the last eight years have been "rough". Then say you have been married for eight years. That seems to say that you have had problems with the marriage from the start.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

BadGrammar said:


> Understood.
> 
> Just one thing. In recounting your sister's battle with cancer and your selfless support throughout that ordeal, I daresay you make a point. But perhaps not the one you intended. It is true, you did not have cancer. However, does this mean that your impulse to help her was unwarranted or unwelcome? I realize that infidelity is not cancer, and this only a topic related forum. But let me put forth my own, albeit hypothetical example...
> 
> ...


It’s not that you can’t crash the party. But man, you came in guns blazing......about something you haven’t experienced. That’s not to say you can’t or won’t give valid advice, but it’s kinda like the overweight personal trainer trying to tell you how to get in shape. They might know what they’re talking about, but it’s not something they put into action. 

I will apologize. I’m that fun combination of wayward AND betrayed. And in all honesty, I haven’t been in more pain ever in my life. The last two years have been pretty awful. I read here and I try to help, but I trigger at times. I trigger as a wayward and I trigger as betrayed. I trigger about infidelity in general. I hate it, I hate what I did, I hate what he did. I’d give my life to have things be different. I’d give anything to not be walking through Old Navy tonight and have the random thought hit me “my husband had sex with another woman”. Which stops me dead in my tracks and I literally have to shake my head to get rid of the thought. Be very thankful you haven’t experienced it. It’s awful to have it done to you and it’s awful to have the full weight of what you did on your shoulders, wishing you could be a better person - but you’re not, and nothing can change that because it’s already done. What I did 4 years ago for 30 seconds will never leave. What he did for a year and a half, maybe 2 years - will never leave. And the pain is immense. On both sides. I’d tell you I’m broken. 100% broken. I’m angry, I’m sad, I’m cynical. If my marriage ends, I highly doubt I’d ever get married again. Maybe I’d date, well, I probably would because I need male attention and interaction and affection, but if there were a next person, they’d never get all of me. I couldn’t give it. Not anymore. 

So to see someone come out of nowhere, and attack her - knowing that I think I know what she’s feeling right now about what she did. It triggers me. No one is helping her in the way she’s asking, and as usual she’s just being made out to be scum by most. I know that scum feeling. It’s pretty bad.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Trying, I think your title says a lot. 3 breakdowns? And first an EA that you confessed, and now a PA. It sounds like to me from all you said - the EA and PA were major cries for help. You and your marriage have apparently been broken a long time. Personally, from everything you have written i dont think you can rekindle the passionate love you want with your husband - at least not in the state you are now - or the state he is in. 

I don't believe you are healthy emotionally to have a good passionate love for anyone at this point. And I'm not sure your husband is either. But only time will tell if you both can do the work needed to make yourselves healthy enough to then work on your relationship with each other.

I don't think you should make any decisions about the marriage right now. Instead get a very good counselor and do some deep work on yourself. Your husband needs to do the same, but you have no control over his part. 

Take a look at this site - especially the love busters section. Love Busters

I think your love bank has been overdrawn for awhile now. Your marriage is dead - and that may be a good thing, for both of you. You can create another more healthy one if you bot want it - and are willing to do the work necessary, both on yourselves and then on your relationship. But, honestly, I don't think you really want to. I think you think you should want to - but your needs have never really been met in your relationship and I don't think you trust that your husband has it in him to ever meet your needs or desires. If what I am saying has some truth, it's really quite understandable that you would feel that way because of your husband's past behaviors 

The affair was wrong and you alone own what you did in choosing that road, make no mistake, it was a choice. A very unhealthy one for you, let alone for your marriage.

Again - my advice right now is to do some serious work in IC and dont worry about your marriage right now. When you become more healthy, you will know which direction to go concerning your marriage.


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## VFW (Oct 24, 2012)

I believe that all relationships can be fixed, if both parties work on the issues together. There are many who have found the fire again, but that is built on the premise you had it to in the beginning. Your affair allowed you to explore things that was not part of your relationship with your husband. This is an unfair comparison, as it was not a real relationship, it did not have to pay bills, do chores or raise children. Your husband was eager to sweep the affair under the rug and go back to business as usual, because he was content with the relationship. I am glad to hear that you are not content to do that as it is self defeating and precisely what led you to this predicament in the first place. 

To be successful you have to have an equal relationship, it sound like your marriage has been somewhat of a child - parent relationship more than an equal partnership. I don't mean to hate on your husband, but I have serious doubt as to his ability to make the leap that you need him to make, based on your comments. That does not mean that you can't or shouldn't try, but I caution you not to settle for less than you need in a relationship. I would like to ask if you have considered a counselor to help guide you two on this journey? A counselor may be helpful in challenging your husband to expand his horizons. Whether you stay together or separate you two have a rough road ahead, it is going to take time and require a boatload of patience. I recommend setting a goal of where you want to be in six months so that you have a means of evaluating the progress of recovery.


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

LosingHim -Thanks for this.

I admit, initially it seems as though I was attacking the OP. I guess I was just hoping to prod her in the direction I thought best for her and her family. I realize that I may not have known what I was talking about, but was hoping my posts would contribute at least incrementally toward a mindset of reconciliation. Because, unlike most cases in this forum, it seems like the OP and her family have a good fighting chance. I won't defend my amateurish, back- seat driver brusqueness. However, if you read my later posts and her last reply to me, I hope you see that I attempted to make my intent clearer, albeit in a gentler fashion. I don't know if she was being truthful, but she did finally state that she valued my input. Probably just being nice.

I'm sorry for your pain, and I hope that you are not truly broken. I don't know how 30 seconds balances with two years, but I am not in your shoes and maybe balance is unimportant. That is certainly not meant to be a jab at you in any way shape or form. On the contrary, sharing that knowledge enlightens me as to your steadfastness through an awful situation.

Best of luck.

BG


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

trying2212 said:


> @manfromlamancha I stand by what I said. I'm not looking for acceptance or approval. Perhaps this thread would have been better posted in the reconciliation thread because it seems like the people who hang out in this one are extremely stuck in some sort of feedback loop where all people can be painted with the same brush strokes and nobody wants to see that nothing about people's lives are as black and white as you seem to want to make them. I never said my husband was bad or implied that I dont have my stuff to work on. I just refuse to be shamed by STRANGERS. I don't have to account to anyone but my H. I appreciate the feedback from people who actually read what I was asking for and provided useful feedback. To everyone else I say I hope you find what you're looking for. You're not going to get it here.


For the final time, I have no need to "accept" or "approve" of you and as long as you keep thinking people get their rocks off by "shaming" you, you are never going to get anywhere. If you are looking for the soft "your fvcking other guy was a cry for help" approach then you dont tend to get much of that here. But what you do get is highly effective.

You said you were seeking advice about reconciliation and this is exactly what you are getting. Lets look at some of your facts:



trying2212 said:


> Okay, this is my first post and I'm looking for some advice. Earlier this year I started what would turn into *an eight month affair (4 EA, 4 PA) with an older single friend*.*This was no mistake - it was cold and planned - the secrecy, the lying, the cheating - all stuff that could destroy your husband. Also you need to accept that the [email protected] was not a friend but used his position as "friend" to get into your pants.* *It took until things began to turn physical before I realized that anything was amiss in our friendship* *Even you have to admit that this reads like a lot of baloney - you knew exactly where this was going and should have cut it off yourself, not go to your husband saying "help, he's trying to fvck me and if I dont I'll lose my precious friend"* *(my H had full access to texts and communication and I never hung out with AP without my H present). When my AP first professed romantic feelings for me, I immediately went to H and said "Help, what do I do? I don't want to lose my friend but now see how so much may have led him to think things were more than friendly."* My H was unconcerned, told me he knew nothing would happen between us, and left it at that. *So I tried to end the situation on my own but eventually ended up entering into a PA **Really! You attempted to end it by fvcking him!*against anything I intended or ever felt capable of. *After a few weeks I confessed to H and have spent the past 3 months trying to end things definitively and maintain NC with AP* *Incredible! You confess to your husband after a few weeks of fvcking him and then spend the next 3 months trying to tie up loose ends or something by continuing to fvck him!*. A little background: *And from here on comes all the justification!!!*H and I married very young and held pretty religious ideals. Through the life of our marriage H has been unable to prioritize me or our family above outside people. These include his parents, people in our church, work, etc. So, for the past 10 years (we are 28 and 30) we have had periods of regular conflict where I tell him that I need him to be on my team and he says he will and then can't seem to translate that into action. He is a pleaser and would rather disappoint me than anyone else because he knows I am legally bound to love him anyway. I have had some major bouts of depression because of these conflicts. We almost separated three times in 10 years but never could do it because of the religious background (and because we really do care about each other). Because we could never figure out how to work out the big issue of lack of partnership or mutual support (and I know I'm half of that equation) we threw in distractors. We had babies, we bought houses, we moved across the country and switched jobs and at the beginning of this year we became foster parents. I suddenly found myself the mom of four kids under the age of four and a H who wasn't a partner. I was overhelemed and sad and lonely and it was nice to have a friend who was older and just wanted to listen to me vent or make me lunch of be sweet to me and make me feel taken care of (none of which I was able to vocalize until I got caught up in the affair and went into IC). As soon as I felt able, I confessed to my H and have been completely honest with him since then, even when there has been contact between me and AP. I am not naturally a liar and I don't want to be this person i have become through this affair. I am depressed and feel hopeless and I am frequently full of self loathing and identity confusion. My H and I have intentionally separated on a trial basis, found a different placement for our foster kids, and are trying to work together to shield our bio kids from all the fallout. My H has been hopeful and wanting to work things out almost since DDay. He is gracious and forgiving and a kind man. I just can't make myself reattach to him. All the built up disconnection before the A and the effects of the A itself have left me trying to work to see if we can rebuild a better relationship from this point forward, but I can't seem to make myself feel the things I should feel anymore. I am doing the things I think I should be doing (complete honesty, NC with AP, IC and MC every week, etc.) but i still feel detached and hopeless. *Does anyone have experience with this? How do you get through it? Do the feelings ever come back? Is there more i can do to help the process along?**Yes - see below*


So how do you reconcile:

Own up to the all the stuff above or at least some version of it and stop thinking people are trying to shame you!

Recognise the OM for the [email protected] (or lets put it mildly: enemy of your marriage) that he is! Dont try and justify your relationship with him.

Then work on letting your husband understand that you really understand what you did wrong and let him see you actively being remorseful.
Be completely honest with him re the affair and open and transparent re your communications with others - the POSOM, the enabling friends etc - all of whom you shouldn't be contacting anyway.

Then get/help him to work on his issues - but only if you both want to reconcile at that point. He should be horrified at the details you provided him. If not, therein is another issue that needs dealing with.

Get individual counselling - you for the above issues and him for his issues.
Get marriage counselling - pick this counsellor very carefully - make sure that it isnt one that wants to rug sweep it or "understands" why you did it. This sort of MC will destroy your marriage and there are a few out there.

Then and only then will you have any chance of reconciling or at the very least, help you understand if you really want to reconcile or not.

And as for "has anyone been through this and successfully reconciled" - yes! But it was some time ago and very difficult as I did not have the benefit of TAM back then.

Now you can continue to only seek comments from those that have a lighter touch but if you want to deal with this effectively listen to some of the 2X4's you will get from many of the TAM members. They are effective. Good luck!


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## Pepe1970 (Aug 25, 2017)

Hello trying. Please when you get a chance check your private messages. Thank you


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@TDSC60 We had problems before the wedding, but since we dated long distance, we didn't realize our incompatibility until very near to our wedding when I moved out to where he was. I called my mother and said I wasn't sure and she assured me that in a few years we would be much better suited for each other as we grew up and grew together. It didn't exactly work out that way and I was too young and immature to realize that you need to love your spouse as they are, not as they may be one day. Seems pretty obvious, but it wasn't to me at the time.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@Pepe1970 

I got your message and tried to reply but it says you aren't accepting private messages. ?


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

trying2212 said:


> Seems pretty obvious, but it wasn't to me at the time.


I think that's so true for all of us as we grow and learn. Dr. Phil says so aptly, "....sometimes we make the right decision, sometimes we have to make the decision right....".

The Apostle Paul, writing to young Timothy (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV)

_Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus._.

Trying, hold on to that which you know to be true, and shape your life according to that wisdom. I wish that I could tell you that my experiences yielded results in marital ways, but my results were not in my marriage. Nevertheless, God's presence never failed, God's wisdom prevailed, and God's reward was abundant.

As to me, W the aged, I think your mother is wise. It would be very hard for me to say, based upon what you have written here, that your husband was a poor choice. It seems to me that he is an excellent choice.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

If your husband had the A, how would you feel? Think hard about the pain that brings. your self -esteem is gone. the OW was better than you.

He had sex with her and developed feelings for her. He gave himself to her and enjoyed the sex with her.(more than you did with your H)

He has stopped the A, but he can't have sex with you, because he replaced his love for you with his love for her.


So he feels like he would be cheating on her if he had sex with you. This is what you are doing to your H. You made the decisions over and over to replace you loyalty from your H to the OM.

You still think good about the OM. He is an enemy to your children and your family, let alone your H. You are still protecting the OM. He was and is an enemy to your kids and your family. You would not let a snake with poison in the house with your kids.

He is not a good person. He used you like meat because he does not care for you. He wanted sex with you with no responsibility for providing for your family. Your H is so much of a better man than your OM. You are still protecting your OM. You had sex with the OM, but can't with your H. Many times, in order to justify your horrible choices, cheaters rewrite the marriage history.

You H is not perfect, but he is so much more of a man than your lousy OM. Look how he attacked your children so that he was so selfish. He wanted sex with you and he does not care about your kids.

You at the time did not think of your kids. You seem like a smart lady. But you still have your unicorns and fairies about you. 

You still love the OM. You can't have sex with your H. You do not love your H, or you would not keep abusing him and protecting the OM.

How has the OM suffered? Can he still walk and does he still have eyes? what have you done to make sure this scum does not destroy another family.

You still love the OM. He is a fantasy. Your H is the real deal. 

You cheated and he gets kicked out of his home. You can not feel it to have sex with him.

You need to leave your home. You are the one that is an adult and you love the OM and are staying faithful to the OM. It took me a while in my life to figure things out, but your have no idea how much abuse you have heaped upon your husband with your selfish choices.


Let your H back into the home. You have talked about God. Have some mercy on your children. do not deprive them of their father that did not cheat back into their lives.

Give your H a reasonable D. You cheated and still are loyal to the OM. Somehow, you are not such a smart lady.

File for D and stop abusing your H. What you are continuing to do is abuse. I have been thru this in my own life and in my son's life.

I helped him with his D. Yes, he caught her sitting on her co-workers lap, but had been dating for some time. She was careless. 

If you will really look, think if someone treated your children the way you are treating your husband. THINK about it for some time.

If someone abused and continued to abuse your child in their marriage relationship, enough is enough. 

My son has been divorced for many years now. 

He does not trust women at all. this cheating has an impact for many many years. You have NO IDEA until you watch the pain from this abuse in your son's life over many years.


He is a nice guy. Yes, he used to play football. after he knocked over a guy, he would check on him to make sure his opponent was okay. 

His football coach told his wife he was the best kid he had ever coached. 

But he will never have kids, because he will never trust another woman like he did his ex. He is in his early 30s now. Think about how the OM did this to your kids and maybe some day you will snap out of it and stop abusing your H. Because the way you are continuing to treat your H as your plan B or C, should not happen to one of your kids.

When it happens to me, I am old and hope to die soon, so I do not have to keep living with the pain.

But do this to my kids, or if someone did this to your kid, you would not stand for it.

Stop the abuse. 

Give him the D and let him have custody of the kids. He does not have to have the pain of knowing you replaced him as the father of his kids with the no morals , poison snake of the OM around his kids.

hope you wake up.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@harrybrown I'm sorry for your experiences. They seem to have really affected you and your family. It seens to cause you a lot pf pain even now, understandably. As for me and my family, we have our stuff and we are working through it. My husband chose to leave the house and neither wants a divorce or sole custody of our children. We see him every day because I know our kids need him as much as they need me, now and always. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone who has an affair is a selfish monster. Selfish? Sure. A monster? Probably not. Again, I'm sorry for how things went in your family and I appreciate the perspective in the first half of your message. I hope you find a way to make peace with what happened in your son's marriage.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Geez.

Just divorce already.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Geez.
> 
> Just divorce already.


Not this one. The responses are so damn defensive. I feel for her BH. 
No attack here, just a lot of what is said seems to ring very hollow.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

I think there's a difference in being defensive and just not buying what you're selling wholesale. I can take what's got value from the responses but given that you know very little about my life other than the top of the iceberg shared here, I don't find a lot of what is said worth internalizing. I'm here to remind people that it's okay to be gentle with other people, even if you don't know them and suffer zero repercussions for being harsh. I asked for legitimate, first hand experience with emotional ambivalence while trying to reconcile after an affair. All the added is just noise from people who have their own struggles and for whom I harbor little ill will because I have no idea what drives your comments. Which is why i have tried to be polite in return. It's okay for you to be triggered by my posts. But it's also okay for me to call it like I see it from my perspective.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Taxman said:


> Not this one. The responses are so damn defensive. I feel for her BH.
> No attack here, just a lot of what is said seems to ring very hollow.


Wait...

You mean to tell me that you’ve not been able to find anything of substance in 7 pages of a WW talking about her _feelings_?

I’m shocked.


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

trying2212 said:


> I think there's a difference in being defensive and just not buying what you're selling wholesale. I can take what's got value from the responses but given that you know very little about my life other than the top of the iceberg shared here, I don't find a lot of what is said worth internalizing. I'm here to remind people that it's okay to be gentle with other people, even if you don't know them and suffer zero repercussions for being harsh. I asked for legitimate, first hand experience with emotional ambivalence while trying to reconcile after an affair. All the added is just noise from people who have their own struggles and for whom I harbor little ill will because I have no idea what drives your comments. Which is why i have tried to be polite in return. It's okay for you to be triggered by my posts. But it's also okay for me to call it like I see it from my perspective.


I'll say this then I'm out.

We've seen WWs here whose posts drip remorse, it flows from the page.

I don't see that. I see someone being defensive.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

As long as you have loving feelings for OM and refuse to come to terms with the fact that he was a predator that has blown up your kid's family stability there will not be much progress.

Right now your BH is numb with pain and is so fearfully wanting to rug sweep to keep the marriage/family intact that he's swallowing such a nasty situation that you put your family in. You on the other hand, wanted to separate but it's the betrayed who's out of the house. is that fair? 

What did you hope to achieve by the separation? More distance from your husband to allow you to keep the affair going from eyes that were making you feel guilty? Or is it allowing you the space to not feel less guilty about not wanting to have sex with your husband? 

The poor guy has to be in so much pain knowing that another man, who was playing like he was a friend, was a actually banging the mother of his kids right under his nose. Then you continue to have sex with OM for months after confessing? Wow, that is seriously F'd up. 

He doesn't even get to emotionally reclaim your body through hysterical bonding sex because you now find having sex with your husband repulsive. Which is caused by you still subconsciously wanting to be loyal to OM. 

Your kids family life and stability hangs in the balance while you probably spend the day emotionally absent, pining away for OM. That will not change until things on the ground change. If you hope to R, your husband has to reclaim your body. That can only happen when he man's up enough that you find him attractive again. 

It's tough for a man to have to work to re-earn the affections of his wife who for months was giving herself to another. Hope you can see how jacked up that is. I recommend that you buy your husband the Married Man Sex Life Primer. It's a guide for him to become a better husband & father to be able to attract their wife.

R is possible but both partners must do the work. I'm 18 years into R, so it is possible.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Trying2212, I would recommend you read this thread through all the way. 

This is from a poster named Tears, a woman who had no good reason whatsoever to cheat, but cheat she did. She had a postcard perfect husband and marriage. And if you read her words, you will see what remorse looks like. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/private-members-section/52532-i-cheated-my-husband-left.html

They should make Tears' thread standard reading for all TAM surfers, betrayers and betrayeds.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

jsmart said:


> That can only happen when he man's up enough that you find him attractive again.


I respectfully ask you please, do not convey this message to your husband. It will ruin your marriage, and any possible successful marriage your husband can ever have. He does not deserve to receive any statements like this. The truth is, you have never found him attractive, and it is through no fault of his own that you chose to marry him. He can "man up" all he wants, but it will not make him any more desirable to you than he is right now. 



jsmart said:


> I recommend that you buy your husband the Married Man Sex Life Primer. It's a guide for him to become a better husband & father to be able to attract their wife.


This, and similar actions, are tantamount to blaming your husband for your affair. Telling him "if you had only been a better husband and father, this wouldn't have happened".... which has absolutely no basis in fact or truth. Affairs happen out of the lust of the cheater, and for no reason concerning the BS.


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

Wait a minute? Is she still sleeping with the OM?!... If so she is obviously not serious about anything but trying to leave her family. 
Apologies if I misunderstood. 
Whatever the case...she is a helluva tap dancer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

I don’t understand. What is the point of being less than honest on this forum? No one knows who you are, or can see your face. You are only being dishonest to yourself. By saying you are a good person or bad person doesn’t make it so either way. If you don’t spill the truth, you are wasting everybody’s time.

I suggest you write here honestly about how you truly feel about your H. Do so as if you were speaking to the OM. You know you must have ridiculed him in some form to the OM. Be honest. What do you dislike or even hate about him physically and or sexually? What did you cry or worse yet laugh about to the OM? Spill it all. Even your resentment of your children. 

Just a guess, but I think if you actually expose the ugliness and cruelty of your current mindset, you may be able to see it for what it is... ugly and cruel. And the more experienced folks here, (not me) might actually be able to help you. 

Veterans of TAM, let me know if I am out of line here.



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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

I have no intention of following any advice having to do with what I need to tell my husband to do. If you go back to the original posts, I am asking for what I can do to help the feelings come back, if anything (not what my husband can do to make me feel those things). And I'm asking for advice from people who have actually experienced this and had success. I'm not asking for character judgments or accusations or inserted opinions about how abused my poor husband is or how I ruined my perfect marriage by doing this. I understand the sentiment that if you legitimately had a happy marriage and then went out and slept with someone else due to a momentary lapse of judgement, of course you're going to cry and beg for forgiveness and throw yourself upon the mercy of the court. This isn't the case in my marriage. Was it a lapse of judgment? Yes. Did I hurt my husband? Of course I did. Do I feel remorse? Yes, but I feel no need to express it to you all because he's the only one who matters in this scenario. The real tragedy, it seems, is in the thinking that if you have a marriage filled with junk over years and years (that both of you helped create) and then someone has an affair and you blame the affair and the person who has committed it entirely for the breakdown of the marriage, you have done yourself and your spouse a disservice. I'm not trying to say what I did was in any way right. I'm simply saying I'm not going to live in a fantasy world where everything was roses and sunshine and unicorns and I just went out and cheated because deep down inside I'm a horrible human being. Because what good does that do anyone? We would either walk away from our marriage and take the same toxic behaviors into a new relationship or we would stay together and contain those toxic behaviors to the relationship we already had. I know that you think the tough love is what it takes to get through to people, but really it just communicates a complete lack of understanding of the complexity of relationships or infidelity. Read Gottman. Go look up Esther Perel on youtube (or read her book). Nothing is as simple as you want to make believe it is and relationships can be full of betrayal, with or without sexual infidelity. And if you never get to the point of working through that other stuff (which is the point of my original post), then what kind of future relationship are you really capable of having? 

And to those who have implied that I'm still seeing my other man, I would direct you, again, to the first post where I said I am in NC with him. I choose not to talk or think about him because continuing to think about him is what kept me contacting him for three months. And because, yeah, it hurts. The whole situation hurts. The betrayed don't have exclusive rights to hurt, though they obviously have every right to feel and express the astronomical amount of hurt that this betrayal has caused. And if it leads them to D, so be it. If not, then nothing seems to get solved by sweeping the underlying issues in the marriage if you hope to rebuild (and no, I don't think that the majority of women, though I can't speak for men, just go out and have affairs because they're lustful. I'm sure some do, but I think they may be the exception and not the rule.)


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Trying, you may want to try this forum. It may be helpful to talk to people who have had affairs. Most of those get driven away here.
SurvivingInfidelity.com - Wayward Side Forum


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@BadGrammar You have all gotten an extremely honest look into my marriage and what we're dealing with now. What is it you want? An honest look into my affair? You want to know how I justified it to myself? It was really simple: after we discussed the other man's professions of romantic interest in me and my husband seemed indifferent a thought took root in my heart and mind that made it incredibly easy -- he doesn't care. I honestly believed that he would neither be surprised or that upset. Obviously that's idiotic and I can see it for what it is now, but it's not without merit in the overall discussion of how to move forward. No marriage can last when one or both of you feels like the other one doesn't care. And that's not to say that he legitimately didn't care. This is not about what he did or didn't do that CAUSED my affair. What caused my affair was the ability to justify it and years of loneliness that had built up and my lack of creative problem solving skills to deal with it. I'm squarely at fault for not just saying "Okay, man, I'm really deep into the process of starting an affair so before that happens, let's take a good hard look at our relationship." I take full responsibility for that.

As to what I said about my H to OM, I hope I haven't given the impression that I think my H is an idiot or in some way a buffoon who is worthy of ridicule. He is kind and gracious and probably the nicest man on the planet. I said the same things I have said on this post to the other man. I never talked about our sex life (so, lucky you, you've gotten even more than he did.) When OM commented on how it could be that H had no idea that something was happening, I commented that that fact probably said more about me than it did about him. It's not like I set out to cheat because i hate my H. I was overwhelmed and felt trapped in a situation that had been going on for years and somebody offered me an out. So I took it. Do I regret it now? Of course I do. (And not because I got caught. I didn't get caught, I confessed after I had tried to end things.) But at the time, no matter how much half of mind knew that what I was doing was wrong, of course it was, I couldn't let go of feeling seen by someone else, like feeling like someone cared. And I justified it because after years of disconnection I really believed that my H didn't care.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

trying2212 said:


> I have no intention of following any advice having to do with what I need to tell my husband to do.
> 
> Was it a lapse of judgment? Yes. Did I hurt my husband? Of course I did. Do I feel remorse? Yes, but I feel no need to express it to you all because he's the only one who matters in this scenario.
> 
> ...


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

trying 2212 said:


> a thought took root in my heart and mind that made it incredibly easy -- he doesn't care. I honestly believed that he would neither be surprised or that upset.


I believe you in this. This is commonly stated among waywards. I also believe that you did not "set out" to cheat, and that you didn't hate your H. These are also commonly stated.


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## AlsoTrying2789 (Nov 3, 2017)

I’ve read through this thread last night and this morning, and I had to take a little time before I responded, but here it goes.

Hi everyone, I’m H.

Trying sent me a link to this thread last night. Honestly, there are so many things I’d like to say or respond to; things that made me mad, things I wanted to correct or argue, even a few things I appreciated. But I didn’t feel most of those things warranted posting about; except to say this.

You all need to know that I stand by Trying. Many of you have read her posts and answered with some really heavy judgement. As the only person on this G****mn thread who actually sees her and talks to her on a regular basis, I’ll tell you what I see when I read her posts. 

I see a woman who is remorseful, that is deeply and keenly aware of the pain and relational havoc the A has caused, for both of us. She’s never once denied responsibility of the A, in any of her posts. She’s so aware of the impacts in fact, I’d say that any further comments about how ashamed she should feel about her actions, or anything along those lines, are absolutely unnecessary, unhelpful, and unwelcome.

I see a woman who desperately wants to know if someone can offer any wisdom, any hope of reconciliation, because she still cares deeply for her husband and is “Trying” to work on things. All the while though, she’s wrestling with the fear that even a new relationship with her husband will continue to lack the emotional connection that it did essentially for the entire course of the marriage. This cannot be reduced to a simple “you had an A, you screwed up, you need to divorce him or spend forever begging your H for forgiveness”. This situation goes so, so much deeper than that, and ignoring that fact, or even passing judgments without caring to know more of the situation, ends up erasing any good intentions one might have had and just ends up being hurtful.

I read my Wife’s responses to some of these posts that seem to be coming from a place of utter condemnation, and I couldn’t be more proud of her. I stand by the things she’s said: the A does not mean she is at her core a horrible person who threw away a perfect marriage. She doesn’t need “tough love” from complete strangers who don’t know her. She is simply asking if anyone has had experience working through reconciliation when the feelings aren’t there. She is looking for hope. I just regret that she had to post those things for herself; all I can say is I stand with her, and if anyone has any hopeful experience to offer, please do. Otherwise, please keep your judgement to yourself.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I disagree. What I see is a woman who fvcked up, knows she fvcked up and is trying to find a smooth way back to loving her husband again because she thinks it is what she is supposed to do. 

I don't see remorse. I see guilt. I think she feels bad that he is hurting. But that is not remorse. 

What I see is a woman trying to get the rest of us to agree with her that her husbands actions or lack of actions over the years led to her being ripe for an affair. She wants us to agree with her that her husband is partially responsible fro her decision to have an affair. We're calling bullsh*t on that. 

She and her husband were both responsible for the condition that the marriage had deteriorated to prior to her decision to engage in an affair. The ratio of blame is debatable. We can't know for sure because we are only hearing her side. She had dozens of alternatives and choices to do things other than engage in an affair. She chose wrong. That's on her. She needs to own it, and until she owns it she is going nowhere in her recovery.


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

trying2212 said:


> @BadGrammar You have all gotten an extremely honest look into my marriage and what we're dealing with now. What is it you want? An honest look into my affair? You want to know how I justified it to myself? It was really simple: after we discussed the other man's professions of romantic interest in me and my husband seemed indifferent a thought took root in my heart and mind that made it incredibly easy -- he doesn't care. I honestly believed that he would neither be surprised or that upset. Obviously that's idiotic and I can see it for what it is now, but it's not without merit in the overall discussion of how to move forward. No marriage can last when one or both of you feels like the other one doesn't care. And that's not to say that he legitimately didn't care. This is not about what he did or didn't do that CAUSED my affair. What caused my affair was the ability to justify it and years of loneliness that had built up and my lack of creative problem solving skills to deal with it. I'm squarely at fault for not just saying "Okay, man, I'm really deep into the process of starting an affair so before that happens, let's take a good hard look at our relationship." I take full responsibility for that.
> 
> 
> 
> As to what I said about my H to OM, I hope I haven't given the impression that I think my H is an idiot or in some way a buffoon who is worthy of ridicule. He is kind and gracious and probably the nicest man on the planet. I said the same things I have said on this post to the other man. I never talked about our sex life (so, lucky you, you've gotten even more than he did.) When OM commented on how it could be that H had no idea that something was happening, I commented that that fact probably said more about me than it did about him. It's not like I set out to cheat because i hate my H. I was overwhelmed and felt trapped in a situation that had been going on for years and somebody offered me an out. So I took it. Do I regret it now? Of course I do. (And not because I got caught. I didn't get caught, I confessed after I had tried to end things.) But at the time, no matter how much half of mind knew that what I was doing was wrong, of course it was, I couldn't let go of feeling seen by someone else, like feeling like someone cared. And I justified it because after years of disconnection I really believed that my H didn't care.




I just don’t think you are being truly honest. It seems that you are measuring your responses based on what you believe to be acceptable polite public discourse. I know it is tough to be completely transparent and therefor emotionally vulnerable... even given the anonymity of this forum. I know I am not an authority on this subject, but like many others here... I see you treading water. And remember, nobody here has an investment in your situation beyond the impulse to help a fellow human being.

Perhaps you have done this already ( maybe many times over), but I think you should read this thread from the beginning. Try to read your own posts objectively, as if you were a stranger viewing them for the first time. It may help you to understand why so many here have a differing view from your own. Ultimately, it is only your own posts that offer any indication toward a good or bad outcome. But, I believe that you must start by admitting that a four month physical affair is not something one falls into. It is a deliberate and aggressive act, reformulated and reconfirmed daily by willing partners. It is a dark marriage of sorts based on secrecy, deception and lust. I believe that you have to proclaim and confirm that you were, and may still be a party to this distasteful union. 

But what do I know?



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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@BadGrammar It may seem like I am not being honest or that I'm trying to sugar coat my own part in this, but believe it or not, I've been extremely honest here. Do I harbor resentment for my husband as to the state of our marriage? Do I get angry and act like a huge wench sometimes? Of course! Do I blame him for my A? No. I don't. As to the A itself, it lasted for a month and then there were three months of further communication, all of which was relayed to my H in real time because, contrary to popular belief, I was trying to end it and finding myself surprisingly weak-willed. Selfish? Totally. Aggressive?
Nah. That seems to imply that i was trying to get back at my husband out of spite or something. I just wanted to feel taken care of for a while. Again, selfishness. My husband has weighed in on this thread now and whether he wants to weigh in on anything else about our situation is up to him, though I think he's extremely brave for saying anything given how judgmental people on this post have been about him as well as me. He's not weak or crying into his coffee every morning. Like me, he's trying to figure out how to navigate the bomb site that used to be our marriage. He's working on himself and figuring out what he wants. And you know what, he's continuing to be the gracious, kind-hearted man he always was. He can acknowledge his stuff. I can acknowledge my stuff. But it doesn't take away the A or the 8 years of marriage and 2 years of dating that came before it. And no amount of my crying into my coffee every morning is going to do it, either. He would see right through it, anyway. I can tell you, though, that I have never felt more broken than when I first confessed to my husband and saw the devastation that followed for him. It was really the first time that it hit me in a meaningful way that he truly did care. (Again, it may have been idiotic to think that way about it, but that's where we were at.)


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

My problem with you? 
You @trying2212....... 

My problem is that you are too glib. Too damn intelligent. You could talk a worm out of a hole with six hungry robins within 3 inches, all looking down, waiting for the knowing, seeing, worm to appear.

My problem is that someone as intelligent as yourself would likely never fall into this infidelity trap. You would see the trappings, see the body movements, the hungry look in your AP's face, long before he got hardened feelings for you.
You would not miss this. My point? This is either a misstep or an exercise in trying to out-write, out-debate ninety eight percent of TAM's responders. 

I am having trouble placing you at the scene of the crime. Under this man's lusting body.

If I am too clever, you are too clever, squared.


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

trying2212 said:


> @BadGrammar It may seem like I am not being honest or that I'm trying to sugar coat my own part in this, but believe it or not, I've been extremely honest here. Do I harbor resentment for my husband as to the state of our marriage? Do I get angry and act like a huge wench sometimes? Of course! Do I blame him for my A? No. I don't. As to the A itself, it lasted for a month and then there were three months of further communication, all of which was relayed to my H in real time because, contrary to popular belief, I was trying to end it and finding myself surprisingly weak-willed. My husband has weighed in on this thread now and whether he wants to weigh in on anything else about our situation is up to him, though I think he's extremely brave for saying anything given how judgmental people on this post have been about him as well as me. He's not weak or crying into his coffee every morning. Like me, he's trying to figure out how to navigate the bomb site that used to be our marriage. He's working on himself and figuring out what he wants. And you know what, he's continuing to be the gracious, kind-hearted man he always was. He can acknowledge his stuff. I can acknowledge my stuff. But it doesn't take away the A or the 8 years of marriage and 2 years of dating that came before it. And no amount of my crying into my coffee every morning is going to do it, either. He would see right through it, anyway. I can tell you, though, that I have never felt more broken than when I first confessed to my husband and saw the devastation that followed for him. It was really the first time that it hit me in a meaningful way that he truly did care. (Again, it may have been idiotic to think that way about it, but that's where we were at.)




I think this post feels more heartfelt. For the first time, your despair seems palpable. If memory serves, it also the first time you have portrayed your husband in an individual, human light. In this one post, I finally sense that there is a real flesh and blood couple struggling with crisis. I think it is a good start. 

I also think it may help your husband to be involved in this forum...but that is a somewhat underdeveloped opinion. I would seek out the advice of others on this forum concerning that matter.

I am still pulling for you.



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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

AlsoTrying2789 said:


> I’ve read through this thread last night and this morning, and I had to take a little time before I responded, but here it goes.
> 
> Hi everyone, I’m H.


oh, for sure


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

AlsoTrying2789 said:


> I’ve read through this thread last night and this morning, and I had to take a little time before I responded, but here it goes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If your H actually wrote this, then you should drop this thread. If all you are getting out of this, is the feeling that you are being picked on... then it is truly pointless. That you were able to muster the assistance of your BS (of all people) in the seconding of that assertion makes it clear that this is going nowhere.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You had many options to avoid humiliating and hurting your husband, up to and including divorcing him. Yes divorce would have ended the marriage, but you would have at least dealt with the issue in an honorable fashion and come through it with your integrity intact. Yes it would have hurt him, but not like this betrayal has. 

You chose wrong. He had nothing to do with that choice. THAT is what I am trying to get you to own. 

Good luck to you both. I won't be posting on this thread anymore.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@SunCMars I think that's an interesting and not completely untrue assessment. I am very intelligent but also do really stupid things sometimes, usually related to my emotions. I legitimately didn't see things devoping for the first 4 months of friendship. He wasn't predatory. We met him at church and for months we all three hung out together or with other people from church. For the two weeks or so after he told me of his feelings and i kept talking to him anyway? Totally. And here's where I may have been calculating: I let it happen. It felt good to have someone see how overwhelmed I was, who saw how lonely I was, and told me there was something worth having there. At that point I was almost solely responsible for the care of a 4 year old, two 2 year olds and a newborn. I was exhausted and stressed and lonely all the time and when AP offered to make me lunch and just talk, I went. It didn't even turn physical at that point but the door was open and even though I knew it was wrong I let it happen. Because I was tired of feeling like everyone's mom and nobody's partner. Was it selfish? Incredibly. Stupid? Of course. When I told H it was like saying "Oh my God! I've shot my arm off! I have no arm! Where the heck is my arm?" I couldn't make sense of my own actions. And I couldn't make sense of why I couldn't quit. Because I am smart. And I am an incredibly strong person. But this threw me completely. Suddenly I had no idea who I was or what I was capable of. Could I kill someone? Who knew, anymore. So, I would say huge misstep rather than just being completely deer in the headlights after that initial profession of feelings. I relied too heavily on the fact that nothing would happen even as I opened the box of matches and started lighting them.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@BadGrammar I only sent him here because we have therapy every week and in it I get so stuck in the guilt aspect that it stagnates things and I wanted him to understand where the idea that I can't live with myself after the A and I can't trust myself in our marriage come A from. It comes from the general idea perpetrated on this and most other sites that people who cheat are defective and their marriages unsalvageable. Even as they ask for some hope to hold onto that it isn't true. 

The fact that he chose to comment in the way he did says more about the quality of his character than it does about any of the rest of us. And I won't apologize for that.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

And @AlsoTrying2789 is not shocked by any of what I've said here. I'm not looking for advice on whether or not i love him or am in love with him. We have spent the past almost four months taking a really honest look at ourselves and our relationship. We are not in crisis anymore (or maybe just for the time being, who knows). We are looking ahead to see if anything can be recovered or built new. That's all.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

This is going to come off as harsh, even though I do not intend it to be so.



trying2212 said:


> @BadGrammarIt comes from the general idea perpetrated on this and most other sites that people who cheat are defective and their marriages unsalvageable.


Trying:

The latter observation is patently false.

The former observation is 100% true. That doesn't mean a wayward can learn how to no longer be defective. However, you made a promise to your husband and took vows before God. No matter what the conditions, you chose to break them. You gave yourself permission to do so. 

Trying, don't fall into the trap in thinking that your affair was a one-off or an outlier, and that there isn't some deep-seated flaw in your character that needs to be addressed. 

I think you are realizing this, as it would explain your cognitive dissonance over asking yourself if you could also murder someone.

Take this time to truly get to know yourself. Get to know those things that make you special, as well as those things that are not so desirable. Understand that you will forever have the potential to cheat unless you take action to stop it.

Mister Trying:

Put down the shining armor. Your wife is a grown woman. She was adult enough to give herself to another man. She is adult enough to hear th truth, even when it hurts.

I hope you are not carrying the same attitude in real life. It can prevent her from experiencing the natural consequences of her actions. Love people enough to allow them to fail. That is how they learn to never repeat the same mistake. Shielding somebody from consequences is one of the darkest forms of enabling.

In fairness she has a good start. Don't go mucking it up now. You have your own work to do.

Trying, in answer to your original post, if you want to start to build love for your husband, you can start by being gracious. He is extending you significantly more grace then I would give my wife in this situation. She would be my ex wife in rather short order if she made such choices. 

But graciousness doesn't really solve the attraction issue. That may not ever return. This may sound pessimistic, but attraction is the glue that holds everything else together. Without it, marriage is nothing more than a business arrangement. 

Lastly, while it may not sound like it, I am a Christian. You need to be bathing everything that you do with your marriage in prayer. 

Infidelity did not bring me to this site, but a marriage on the brink of divorce for other reasons did. One of the first things we implemented, on suggestion of our Christian marriage counselor, was to hold each others hands at bedtime and give thanks for the things that life gave us, thanks for the things we did for each other, and pray together for God to heal our marriage. 

All of us are flawed in some way or another. All of us fall short of the grace and glory of God. We owe it to our maker and our loved ones to try and overcome these flaws.

Good luck.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@farsidejunkie I appreciate your post and I think it's full of wisdom. It gives me some good perspective and maybe some good perspective for H as well. I do question the idea of anyone being defective, though. What if I had cheated on my taxes? What if I stole crime someone? What if I got in a bar fight amd really hurt someone? What if I did any number of crummy things people do at ant point in their lives but never cheated on my spouse? Would I be any more or less defective? I think something that I have been working on over the past few months is that it is possible to be a good person who does something bad without there being something inherently wrong with them. And, trust me, it took a long time to get here. Im not saying my A was an accident. I'm just saying I am not going to make it turn me into less of a person. I'm going to keep walking it out and taking what I can amidst the rest and seeing how it fits into our life. 

Thanks for the input, everyone. I think I have gotten what I can from this (and then some.)


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> This is going to come off as harsh, even though I do not intend it to be so.
> 
> 
> Trying:
> ...


Exactly correct.

Time to pull your head out of the sand, Mr. Trying.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

trying2212 said:


> @farsidejunkie I appreciate your post and I think it's full of wisdom. It gives me some good perspective and maybe some good perspective for H as well. I do question the idea of anyone being defective, though. What if I had cheated on my taxes? What if I stole crime someone? What if I got in a bar fight amd really hurt someone? What if I did any number of crummy things people do at ant point in their lives but never cheated on my spouse? Would I be any more or less defective? I think something that I have been working on over the past few months is that it is possible to be a good person who does something bad without there being something inherently wrong with them. And, trust me, it took a long time to get here. Im not saying my A was an accident. I'm just saying I am not going to make it turn me into less of a person. I'm going to keep walking it out and taking what I can amidst the rest and seeing how it fits into our life.
> 
> Thanks for the input, everyone. I think I have gotten what I can from this (and then some.)


Ahhh... deflection.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

trying2212 said:


> @farsidejunkie I appreciate your post and I think it's full of wisdom. It gives me some good perspective and maybe some good perspective for H as well. I do question the idea of anyone being defective, though. What if I had cheated on my taxes? What if I stole crime someone? What if I got in a bar fight amd really hurt someone? What if I did any number of crummy things people do at ant point in their lives but never cheated on my spouse? Would I be any more or less defective? I think something that I have been working on over the past few months is that it is possible to be a good person who does something bad without there being something inherently wrong with them. And, trust me, it took a long time to get here. Im not saying my A was an accident. I'm just saying I am not going to make it turn me into less of a person. I'm going to keep walking it out and taking what I can amidst the rest and seeing how it fits into our life.
> 
> Thanks for the input, everyone. I think I have gotten what I can from this (and then some.)


I will repeat myself. All of us fall short of the grace and glory of God. We owe it to Him and our loved ones to try and improve those things.


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## Mizzbak (Sep 10, 2016)

trying,
I tend to view love more as a decision than an emotion. Not because I don't have feelings, but simply because I find them too inconstant and inexplicable to ever put them in the driving seat of my life. At the risk of sounding patronising, for me "love as decision" is exactly for when I'm not feeling it. And whilst I agree that sexual chemistry may seem a lot harder to decide yourself into, it does still have a great deal to do with the mental state you choose to be in. 

My husband and I are over a year and a half into R, where he was the WS. There have certainly often been times when I have looked at him and felt little physical desire. For me, sexual desire and feeling "in love" with my husband are directly linked to a perception of trust and commitment. Depression, exhaustion etc. certainly don't help, but ultimately the whole package boils down to how much I am willing to believe in the strength of an "us". If I find myself unable to do that, then my desire suffers greatly. I also respond strongly to strength in my husband (no doubt this is my hormones reassuring me that he is a worthy mate), but sometimes I have to be willing to look for it (and that is where my mind being willing to find him worthy kicks in). 

How open are you to the idea that at least some of what you want and feel you need/deserve from a husband you should be able to satisfy for yourself? Although it seems that you have quite carefully steered around the practical implications if you can't effectively reconcile, the logical (healthy) end to an unsuccessful reconciliation is a period of aloneness. (Which I'm not going to call loneliness for a good reason.) How do you "feel" about not having anyone meeting those needs for you then? Extending your starving analogy a little - how do you feel about learning to cook for yourself?


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## BadGrammar (Oct 29, 2017)

trying2212 said:


> @BadGrammar I only sent him here because we have therapy every week and in it I get so stuck in the guilt aspect that it stagnates things and I wanted him to understand where the idea that I can't live with myself after the A and I can't trust myself in our marriage come A from. It comes from the general idea perpetrated on this and most other sites that people who cheat are defective and their marriages unsalvageable. Even as they ask for some hope to hold onto that it isn't true.
> 
> The fact that he chose to comment in the way he did says more about the quality of his character than it does about any of the rest of us. And I won't apologize for that.


Well, I do think that it may speak to his character, but sadly I think it speaks more as to where he is at. I kind of get the feeling that he wants this to just all go away... even to the point of defending you and therefore, (albeit unwittingly) your actions. But your actions in this current situation cannot be cleaved from who you are. It would be less heartbreaking if he were the one on the fence, not you.

Also, I am of the opinion that the guilt aspect, if properly understood and addressed by yourself, would not be viewed as stagnating the process of reconciliation. I may be wrong, but I believe it is the necessary first step toward remorsefulness. Not to be avoided or rushed along. This is true of all great transgressions, not just infidelity. Lastly, as all the veterans of site will tell you...true remorse is absolutely necessary if you are honestly committed to saving your marriage and family. I, for one, still hope that you are.


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## CantBelieveThis (Feb 25, 2014)

trying2212 said:


> @SunCMars I let it happen. It felt good to have someone see how overwhelmed I was, who saw how lonely I was, and told me there was something worth having there. At that point I was almost solely responsible for the care of a 4 year old, two 2 year olds and a newborn. I was exhausted and stressed and lonely all the time and when AP offered to make me lunch and just talk, I went. It didn't even turn physical at that point but the door was open and even though I knew it was wrong I let it happen. .


This sort of always leaves me scratching my head about CSs, couldn't you have looked to find a female friend (or opposite sex) to have this talks with instead? Did you not have any or none that you could have reached out to instead than with a man? 
I see this all over the place, ironically is always someone from the opposite sex that makes the CS feel good.... Hmmm, .. How can anyone married not understand that developing friendships with opp. sex is never appropriate?? I always knew that going into marriage, was always pretty clear, and I never felt confused about it even when things weren't going good with my W....i had plenty buddies to vent to... I really don't get it.... Well I think I do but doesn't make sense to me at least, perhaps it never will.
Anyways best of luck to you Trying, you sound on the right track for R. 

Sent from my BTV-W09 using Tapatalk


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Hello, trying2212.

I see you've already run the gauntlet of the traditional TAM welcome for Wayward Wives. Less a trial by fire, but one of verbal landmines where you have to say _exactly_ the correct thing or be gleefully accused of not being remorseful.

I've found your posts to be intelligent and articulate and you were perceptive enough to know we all have baggage and one or two will use your thread to unload theirs. Take all the advice you; re given, including mine, on its' merits.

You're only three months out from D-Day. It's early days. It is perfectly normal to feel confused at this stage. It's perfectly normal to worry if you'll ever get feelings back for your husband, especially now where after the affair you've been awakened to other possibilities.

Yes, it's possible for you to work past this. Yes, it's possible for your BH to learn to live with your betrayal and finally, yes, it is possible to re-discover your feelings for your H and build a different, better marriage together. It'll take work and on average two to five years. You've both got good and bad days ahead of you.

You're both doing a lot right by establishing and maintaining NC and I think you're both in individual counselling. Usually, we would recommend getting into Marriage counselling so soon, but in your case, I think you need to see a path toward a mutually enriching, emotionally fulfilling marriage as you both missed out on having one modelled for you as children.

As with a lot of affairs involving people who "aren't the type" who have affairs the tragedy is that this could have all been so easily avoided.


> When my AP first professed romantic feelings for me, I immediately went to H and said "Help, what do I do? I don't want to lose my friend but now see how so much may have led him to think things were more than friendly." My H was unconcerned, told me he knew nothing would happen between us, and left it at that.


You were both hopelessly naive. For future reference: If a male friend expresses romantic feelings for you they have to go. In your case, your sub-optimal relationship with your father makes you vulnerable to older men. Let me guess - was your AP 10-15 years older than you? That's what you'll need to resolve in IC. Let's not over-dramatise and say you're "broken" or that you're incapable of change; I believe your life needs a course correction.

I note that your H has been told he's a KISA and that you're a grown woman who should be able to look after yourself. Sometimes that's true. Had your H not been so ambivalent, had he recognised the threat to your marriage for what it was and acted accordingly you both wouldn't be in the situation you're in now. 

I'm categorically _not blaming your husband_. Your affair was down to your own poor choices. You said as much. You've owned them. However, if we use your betrayal as a catalyst for change for both of you, he has to understand that a better response from him would have been to tell you "Your "friendship" ends now. Either you handle it or I will". No doubt at the time you would have thought the response disproportionate. Surely there could be some compromise, but there is none once an Opposite-Sex Friend crosses the line. All friends are friends of the marriage or they get the boot. No exceptions if you value your marriage and want to keep your family intact.


trying2212 said:


> Does anyone have experience with this? How do you get through it? Do the feelings ever come back? Is there more i can do to help the process along?


If you want the feelings to come back, if you want greater intimacy in your marriage one thing you have to do is let go of resentment. Your husband can learn to treat marriage as a partnership. He can learn to be more demonstrative emotionally. He didn't learn it growing up, but he can learn it now. And you say he wants to.

Just don't resent your H for something he cannot be right now. I mean specifically, don't resent your H for lacking the emotional maturity of your AP. That will come in time.

I know you feel you don't want to dwell on your AP, but I hope I can help is helping you see your AP for what he really is.


trying2212 said:


> I legitimately didn't see things devoping for the first 4 months of friendship. *He wasn't predatory*. We met him at church and for months we all three hung out together or with other people from church.


Oh but he was. That may not have been his initial intention but ask yourself what business did a single AP have in befriending a married, mother-of-four? I suspect your AP is around my age, but to a certain kind of POS, harassed mothers have a big target on them and come with obvious, exploitable vulnerabilities. It's exactly as you describe below.


> At that point I was almost solely responsible for the care of a 4 year old, two 2 year olds and a newborn. I was exhausted and stressed and lonely all the time and when AP offered to make me lunch and just talk, I went.


It starts off innocent enough; you're all hanging out together, everything is in the open. Yet if he had a shred of integrity he would have kept his feelings to himself and ended your EA as soon as he was aware of them. Instead, he exploited your trust and friendship and used that emotional maturity and the adult conversation you craved to help you betray you H, your marriage, and your family.

So please, don't say AP wasn't predatory because he absolutely was and part of your growth and learning is to see a threat to your marriage and family and most of all to you and your integrity even if it approaches you with the offer of lunch and conversation.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

bandit.45 said:


> I think you are on the right track. As for true remorse I don't see that yet. You feel guilty and wrong for hurting your mate, you feel dirty for engaging in an extramarital affair, and you feel stupid for duping yourself and letting the OM dupe you. You will feel true remorse when you take your husband's pain and make it your own, and don't think he isn't in pain just because he hides it well and keeps a stiff chin. You have wounded him to his core, but he sounds like a man with white knight syndrome so he thinks he has to put on a brave front for you so you won't lose any more respect for him than you already had before the affair.
> 
> When I look at a cheating scenario like yours, the biggest culprit is your step-by-step lowering of your boundaries. You took what boundaries you had and threw them away when you made the choices to cheat, one by one, in progressive succession. Now your biggest hurdle, as I see it, is to build up new boundaries for yourself. You will have to hold yourself accountable because your husband is not there to do so since you are separated. I would recommend you sit down and make a list of the boundaries you let fall when you first started going down the dark path with your OM. List them, and then make a plan on how to re-build them.
> 
> ...


One of your' better posts. Thanks.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

azteca1986 said:


> Had your H not been so ambivalent, had he recognised the threat to your marriage for what it was and acted accordingly you both wouldn't be in the situation you're in now.


See, that's just it. We DO act "accordingly". We act according to trust in our wives. We value being trusted, and we obey the "golden rule". We do the "right" thing, and because we have been taught to "live by faith, not by sight", we place the faith in our wives. We are inexperienced, and cannot predict the outcome of the circumstances in view. We believe our wives would never cheat, because they promised God and many witnesses they wouldn't.



azteca1986 said:


> I'm categorically not blaming your husband.


I must respectfully disagree. Your prior sentence, quoted above, does indeed categorically blame her husband for this outcome. It is a highly-unfair blame. It is similar to blaming a 2-year old for having to wash chocolate syrup out of his hair. Her husband had no prior experience upon which to decide that a "threat" existed. He now, tragically, does.
@AlsoTrying2789 - you have a highly-commendable, yet rather clinical, response. You've clearly been taught to view the "best" in others, and to push your own feelings aside.
By your post, I understand why your wife may feel the "rugsweep", because she has a much different response set.

To both of you..... a successful marriage is going to be difficult, indeed may not be possible. But a plan toward that achievement will have to undertake the reasons why your responses are so widely different from each other. I think you both seek to deliver what you feel is "right" to each other and are both motivated by high ideals. 

My advice to you is this: set one of your ideals upon knowing each other, and each other's neural networks which formed over your lives to this point. Seek to understand the other's way of "coping" with stresses.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

BadGrammar said:


> If your H actually wrote this, then you should drop this thread. If all you are getting out of this, is the feeling that you are being picked on... then it is truly pointless. That you were able to muster the assistance of your BS (of all people) in the seconding of that assertion makes it clear that this is going nowhere.


THIS.

Could not agree more. It's clear to me that the dysfunctional dynamic between them (that got them to this point in the first place) is still going strong.

Not a healthy marriage for either of them; as long as they stay together neither of them is capable of breaking the dysfunction.

And BG is correct... this thread is pointless unless they can take off the blinders. Their marriage isn't really a marriage. But they will keep pretending and defending because that's the way their dysfunction rolls.

Both of them should get into invidual counseling (not marriage counseling) ASAP, or show each other some mercy and put a fork in this.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

TJW said:


> See, that's just it. We DO act "accordingly". We act according to trust in our wives. We value being trusted, and we obey the "golden rule". We do the "right" thing, and because we have been taught to "live by faith, not by sight", we place the faith in our wives. We are inexperienced, and cannot predict the outcome of the circumstances in view. We believe our wives would never cheat, because they promised God and many witnesses they wouldn't.


Well, let me stop you there. I'm a Buddhist, so I don't live by faith. So, I have little to no idea what you're talking about. Let's leave religion out of this.

OP came to her H and asked for help. She was deep in an EA, so she's not absolved of responsibility, but her H turned away from her. There was an opportunity for her H to show leadership, to unite as a couple and face a common threat together. Unfortunately, he didn't see the situation for what it was.


> I must respectfully disagree. Your prior sentence, quoted above, does indeed categorically blame her husband for this outcome. It is a highly-unfair blame.


To clarify:

The affair is her fault. He _might_ have prevented it. The affair is still her fault.



> Her husband had no prior experience upon which to decide that a "threat" existed. He now, tragically, does.


I don't blame him for that. None of us are born knowing these things. No doubt because they met through their church and had hung out together, so quite reasonably, his guard was down. 

*Life Lesson:* If another man expresses "feelings" for your partner, do not stand idle. Get involved.

Unfortunately, her BH had to learn the hard way.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

trying2212 said:


> @SunCMars I think that's an interesting and not completely untrue assessment. I am very intelligent but also do really stupid things sometimes, usually related to my emotions. I legitimately didn't see things devoping for the first 4 months of friendship. He wasn't predatory. We met him at church and for months we all three hung out together or with other people from church. For the two weeks or so after he told me of his feelings and i kept talking to him anyway? Totally. And here's where I may have been calculating: I let it happen. It felt good to have someone see how overwhelmed I was, who saw how lonely I was, and told me there was something worth having there. At that point I was almost solely responsible for the care of a 4 year old, two 2 year olds and a newborn. I was exhausted and stressed and lonely all the time and when AP offered to make me lunch and just talk, I went. It didn't even turn physical at that point but the door was open and even though I knew it was wrong I let it happen. Because I was tired of feeling like everyone's mom and nobody's partner. Was it selfish? Incredibly. Stupid? Of course. When I told H it was like saying "Oh my God! I've shot my arm off! I have no arm! Where the heck is my arm?" I couldn't make sense of my own actions. And I couldn't make sense of why I couldn't quit. Because I am smart. And I am an incredibly strong person. But this threw me completely. Suddenly I had no idea who I was or what I was capable of. Could I kill someone? Who knew, anymore. *So, I would say huge misstep rather than just being completely deer in the headlights after that initial profession of feelings. I relied too heavily on the fact that nothing would happen even as I opened the box of matches and started lighting them*.


I stand on my gut feelings, as sore they sure be.

A women who is lustful, does not relate, conflate, so easily, so assuredly, as Thee.

When a women opens her heart and thighs, there are not so many words, as there are many more heard.... sighs.
She exclaims, pours forth the common clues, he's my soul mate, he understands my needs, he feels so right, so right without and within me.
He makes me whole. And my hole that this man filled is now his, forever and a day, AMEN, PM.

You are too cool, too brainiac to be an infidelious cheat. 
This is the Glibness that caught my curiousity. And like a cat, paws at, teases my fingers.

Just Sayin'

A second and last time.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

I have had sex with rather dumb, lusty Madchens.

Never with a adverbal Master Relater.

For THAT to happen, I would need to use my hand.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

@Mizzbak @azteca1986, thank you for the feedback. I think the idea of choosing love when you can't feel it has been super prevalent in our marriage (as I assume it is in every marriage). It is part of the emotional block, I think, to moving forward because we took it a step beyond just choosing to love when we don't feel it. The message that was consistent was that you choose to love and never address the feelings or lack of feelings draining your relationship. I think it comes back to how much we choose to trust each other (him trusting me to choose fidelity, me trusting him to be there as a partner) in this time and maybe as trust grows the love will grow as well. 

I appreciated the wisdom azteca, you called a lot of the details about AP. He is 40 (10 years older.) He offered me the validation and emotional support that was lacking in my marriage and family of origin. And I ate it up. I can look at it and acknowledge that he has some serious issues to work out. I guess I just try not to focus on him because it's too easy to fall back into those feeling that the grass might be greener over there (though I know it isn't). And it's easy to focus on his issues or H's issues and ignore the fact that I have a mountain of issues of my own. I keep a yellow legal pad and make lists upon lists of my stuff. Keeps me focused.

I think being able to fully see the patterns and the choices made led us to where we are. I agree that my husband trusted me implicitly. We have both learned through therapy that at the point in which we chose to ignore the professed feelings of OM, fully believing that things could carry on and nothing would happen, trust turned into denial on both of our parts.

It's a messy situation, any way you look at it. But you two make me feel more hopeful that there can be a better relationship in the future. Because, as I've said, I'm not interested in recreating the old patterns. I want us both to be happy (even if we have to, as you say mizzbak, cook some of our own meals). I appreciate your feedback. Thank you.


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## sandcastle (Sep 5, 2014)

trying2212 said:


> @BadGrammar It may seem like I am not being honest or that I'm trying to sugar coat my own part in this, but believe it or not, I've been extremely honest here. Do I harbor resentment for my husband as to the state of our marriage? Do I get angry and act like a huge wench sometimes? Of course! Do I blame him for my A? No. I don't. As to the A itself, it lasted for a month and then there were three months of further communication, all of which was relayed to my H in real time because, contrary to popular belief, I was trying to end it and finding myself surprisingly weak-willed. Selfish? Totally. Aggressive?
> Nah. That seems to imply that i was trying to get back at my husband out of spite or something. I just wanted to feel taken care of for a while.


Can you just admit you loved the new sex and the butterflies and whatever else need you were getting met from your affair partner? while LYING to your hub the entire time?


And now? You can't be intimate with your husband because why? Your guilt? Where exactly was that guilt when you were "weak willed and selfish?

Oh yeah - getting laid by someone other than your husband.

Pay no attention to THAT LACK of guilt or conscience - it just felt real good in the moment. 

Guilt? Can't wait to $&@" kinda guilt?

But I'm intelligent and smart and just so full of self- hatred/guilt I still don't want to have sex with my husband.

Poor husband.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

trying2212 said:


> @Mizzbak @azteca1986, thank you for the feedback. I think the idea of choosing love when you can't feel it has been super prevalent in our marriage (as I assume it is in every marriage). It is part of the emotional block, I think, to moving forward because we took it a step beyond just choosing to love when we don't feel it. The message that was consistent was that you choose to love and never address the feelings or lack of feelings draining your relationship. I think it comes back to how much we choose to trust each other (him trusting me to choose fidelity, me trusting him to be there as a partner) in this time and maybe as trust grows the love will grow as well.
> 
> I appreciated the wisdom azteca, you called a lot of the details about AP. He is 40 (10 years older.) He offered me the validation and emotional support that was lacking in my marriage and family of origin. And I ate it up. I can look at it and acknowledge that he has some serious issues to work out. I guess I just try not to focus on him because it's too easy to fall back into those feeling that the grass might be greener over there (though I know it isn't). And it's easy to focus on his issues or H's issues and ignore the fact that I have a mountain of issues of my own. I keep a yellow legal pad and make lists upon lists of my stuff. Keeps me focused.
> 
> ...


So you have a therapist who is complicit in making sure your husband takes half the blame for your sh*tty choices...


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## Malaise (Aug 8, 2012)

trying2212 said:


> I think being able to fully see the patterns and the choices made led us to where we are. *I agree that my husband trusted me implicitly*. We have both learned through therapy that at the point in which we chose to ignore the professed feelings of OM, fully believing that things could carry on and nothing would happen, trust turned into denial on both of our parts.
> 
> It's a messy situation, any way you look at it. But you two make me feel more hopeful that there can be a better relationship in the future. Because, as I've said, I'm not interested in recreating the old patterns. I want us both to be happy (even if we have to, as you say mizzbak, cook some of our own meals). I appreciate your feedback. Thank you.


And you did this.

What makes you believe he will truly, implicitly, trust you again after having been burned so badly?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

trying2212 said:


> I think being able to fully see the patterns and the choices made led us to where we are. I agree that my husband trusted me implicitly. We have both learned through therapy that at the point in which we chose to ignore the professed feelings of OM, fully believing that things could carry on and nothing would happen, trust turned into denial on both of our parts.


 When you say that "patterns and the choices made led us to where we are", and that "trust turned into denial on both of our parts", you are falsely blame shifting part of your choice to cheat on to your husband. What is worse is that you fault your husband for trusting you "implicitly", as if that is a bad quality in a spouse that allows him to be held partially responsible for your cheating. With your husband now being told by you that he was negligent and partially responsible for your cheating because he was foolish enough to trust you implicitly, he now knows that he is not suppose to fully trust you ever again. That a marriage to you is not a marriage based on mutual trust. That for him, those days of total trust in his spouse are over forever if he wants to be married to you, because you think that total trust by your spouse is a weakness and not a virtue. That is very sad.

If I were a good friend of your husband, I would tell him that somewhere out there is a woman that would never cheat on him, a woman that he could trust implicitly, a woman that would wake up every day thanking God that she has your spouse in her life, and that this person is not you.


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## TJW (Mar 20, 2012)

I don't think OP is intending to blame her H for her affair. I think she is grabbing anything which helps to "make her case" against him for the state of the marriage independent of the affair. She is definitely not thanking God for her husband, and that is very sorrowful to me. Her H seems like a very, very good man.

I'm starting to believe that she basically wants a divorce, with the ability to blame her husband for it. This therapist is borderline incompetent, a qualified therapist would not allow this and bring the subject matter back to the affair, which must be reconciled FIRST before anything else can even be approached.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Picking apart a wayward's words and holding them up for scrutiny is always necessary. A person's words are the result of their thinking process, and it is the thinking process that must be changed in order for them to change their behavior and succeed.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Just in case some of you either find it hard to comprehending and/or retaining infirmation:


trying2212 said:


> I am not trying to justify my actions. I do take full responsibility for A. I now see that I could have left, but at the time I had years of built up messages telling me I couldn't. Still, the affair was my choice in the end, and I do own that.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> I am not blaming H for the affair. I am not even blaming him entirely for the breakdown of our marriage, because that took both of us. But there is always context.


Beyond having an existing agenda, I cannot understand why so many of you are intent on seeing a mother-of-four divorced, when she is a WW who confessed and came here trying to get help to improve her marriage.


trying2212 said:


> I am doing the things I think I should be doing (complete honesty, NC with AP, IC and MC every week, etc.) but i still feel detached and hopeless. Does anyone have experience with this? How do you get through it? Do the feelings ever come back? Is there more i can do to help the process along?


Do any of you gentlemen have anything useful to contribute to her specific questions?


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

azteca1986 said:


> Just in case some of you either find it hard to comprehending and/or retaining infirmation:
> Beyond having an existing agenda, I cannot understand why so many of you are intent on seeing a mother-of-four divorced, when she is a WW who confessed and came here trying to get help to improve her marriage.
> Do any of you gentlemen have anything useful to contribute to her specific questions?


 Many of us are trying to help her. In doing so we are trying to tell her that she cannot have true long term reconciliation ("R") without first having true remorse. Among other things, she must stop any blame shifting and stop all rug sweeping for her to have a real chance at saving the marriage long term. Saying that she accepts full 100% responsibility for her cheating is not the same as actually doing so. This is advice that she may not want to hear, or that she may not yet understand, but it is helpful advice that gives her the best odds of saving the marriage long term.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

I’d tell them both to recognize OP’s detachment from — and her apparent disdain _for_ — her BH for what it is and move forward with an amicable divorce.

No point in trying to blow smoke up their asses.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

Hey gang! Thanks for the continued interest. I actually took the advice of some posters and went to marriage builders. It seems a bit more practical in terms of advocating for fixing the breakdown of a relationship in conjunction with dealing with infidelity rather than making the infidelity the only issue and advocating for divorce. It addresses the resentment felt by all parties and the disconnection piece. So, for anyone else who may be curious about my original topic and wondering the same things I was, I found mb to be really informative and helpful.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> I’d tell them both to recognize OP’s detachment from — and her apparent disdain _for_ — her BH for what it is and move forward with an amicable divorce.
> 
> No point in trying to blow smoke up their asses.


I don’t see disdain but a lot of detachment. They appear to be poorly matched and she’s not interested for the most part.

I think the problem is not so much that there was an affair. I think she owns what she did and her husband would like to just ignore it. But what can’t be ignored is that she has no romantic interest in him and most likely never really did. You can choose to love your spouse, yes. If it’s just an instance of a period of time that’s rough or you’re working through something. But you can’t MAKE your self feel romantic love, chemistry and attraction that isn’t there. And it sounds like it never really was.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

LosingHim said:


> I don’t see disdain but a lot of detachment. They appear to be poorly matched and she’s not interested for the most part.
> 
> I think the problem is not so much that there was an affair. I think she owns what she did and her husband would like to just ignore it. But what can’t be ignored is that she has no romantic interest in him and most likely never really did. You can choose to love your spouse, yes. If it’s just an instance of a period of time that’s rough or you’re working through something. But you can’t MAKE your self feel romantic love, chemistry and attraction that isn’t there. And it sounds like it never really was.


The affair makes the disdain pretty apparent.

Agree with (most of) the rest.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

trying2212 said:


> Hey gang! Thanks for the continued interest. I actually took the advice of some posters and went to marriage builders. It seems a bit more practical in terms of advocating for fixing the breakdown of a relationship in conjunction with dealing with infidelity rather than making the infidelity the only issue and advocating for divorce. It addresses the resentment felt by all parties and the disconnection piece. So, for anyone else who may be curious about my original topic and wondering the same things I was, I found mb to be really informative and helpful.


 I just went to Marriage Builders ("MB")and checked out one of the infidelity threads. When the cheated on spouse asked "How much time should I give her to end the affair, so far I've given her 17 days and she has likley still been sneaking around seeing him based on the information I uncovered today." The answer stunned me. The cheated on spouse was told that "I would give her 6 months to 2 years based on how you feel." Earlier in the thread the OP was told that the average affair runs its course in 2 years. Since you are the spouse that cheated, no wonder you love the MB site. MB tells the cheated on spouse to hang in there until the cheater is done with the affair. Wow, just wow. MB is in practice a cuckold site.


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## LosingHim (Oct 20, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> The affair makes the disdain pretty apparent.
> 
> Agree with (most of) the rest.


Touché on that point. I guess I just think she recognizes that he is a good man, but she is no longer romantically attractive to him. I have a feeling part of that is because she’s now experienced passion and a spark with someone else.......unfortunately that she hadn’t experienced before.

OP, I’m sorry to say it, but if you didn’t feel it before - I don’t think you’re going to feel it now. It doesn’t magically appear or come back. It’s there or it isn’t. Sure, it can falter at times but it doesn’t sound like it was ever really there to begin with.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Trying 2212 be advised you will get a lot of criticisms from many posters on the Marriage Builders (MB) forum. Not that it is unreasonable, so hang in there until you get some advice that works for you and your H.

One poster on MB ( MelodyLane) will most likely reply to your post if you start out on the MB 101 forum. A few other people give out most of the advice or criticism. Referring to anything other than MB books or any other form of relationship help is VERBOTEN.

The general though is most other forms of relationship advise does not work AND to be successful you have to (mentally) buy into the MB formula if you and your H really want to continue to be married and have a successful relationship.

Other good relationship advisors like David Schnarch, author of Passionate Marriage, or John Gottman just don't fly on MB so play along with the people like MelodyLane and you will get some good advice if you can look past the general attitude that MB is next to the only place to save a marriage.


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## trying2212 (Oct 26, 2017)

Thanks, @Handy! I really haven't gone out on the boards there. H and I have mostly been reading throug all the information and articles by Dr. Harley. It seems like our best bet to get good information (and some sort of plan.) Reading through it has helped both of us see some really important things about ourselves and make a plan for the short term, at least. Whether or not we can find a passionate love where we had more of a good friendship/companionship awaits to be seen. But I don't think either of us is giving up yet.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

MelodyLane and others will post 

(The problem is you have fallen out of love. It takes 20-25 hours per week of UA time to fall in love, and 15 hours per week to maintain it. You haven't maintained it so you fell out of love.) UA=undivided attention, which is time together, no TV, no movies, no internet-books or anyone else to take away from one-on-one time. Board games, walks, cooking together, doing chores, and other couple activities are OK or desired as long as you interact with each other in an about equal manner.

MB has a group of "Questionnaires" that get things rolling. I suggest you print out 3 of each of the many forms. You fill out yours. Your h fills out his. Then you make an "ours questionnaire" for the things that you both like or want and note the things where you two differ. These forms are on the left side of the page / link I posted below.

I have 3 of the books "His-Her needs" "Love Busters" and "Buyers, Renters, and Freeloaders." For me the books were fairly basic-common knowledge but they work IF BOTH SPOUSES read and use the books. Like with so many relationship improvement aids, a one sided approach is almost worthless unless it is for someone with an anger management issue or some other deficit only one person has and the OS doesn't have that issue.

Lots of people with difficult issues also call the daily (week days) radio program the Harleys have.

Marriage BuildersÂ® Questionnaires

Emotional Needs Questionnaire
Love Busters Questionnaire
Marital Problem Analysis
Memorandum of Agreement
Personal History Questionnaire
Financial Support Inventory: Needs and Wants Budget
Recreational Enjoyment Inventory
Time For Undivided Attention Graph
Time For Undivided Attention Worksheet
Marital Negotiation Worksheet

Basic Concepts
Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts

Marriage Builders® Radio Archive
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/radio_program/


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

Handy said:


> MB has a group of "Questionnaires" that get things rolling. I suggest you print out 3 of each of the many forms. You fill out yours. Your h fills out his. Then you make an "ours questionnaire" for the things that you both like or want and note the things where you two differ. These forms are on the left side of the page / link I posted below.


 The Marriage Builders ("MB") site is used to up sell people to their for profit services (They have a $1,000 package). I have recommended one of his books (His Needs, Her Needs), but what your doing seems to be a bit too much.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

Try, I used to be on the MB web site and bought the 3 books mentioned. MelodyLane and others suggested the more costly items and services. I didn't go for more than the 3 books and a lot of other people just posted on the forum and never bough anything.

I say the questionnaires are good and they are free, so anyone can avoid the big $$$ items.

I was on "Divorce Busters" before MB and bought Michelle W Davis's books and Relationship Improvement CDs too. That site had "relationship Coaches for $100 per hr. I never wanted to pay to talk to any of their so called "relationship coaches" and when I reccomended some authors books other than MW Davis's books, a bunch of posters got banned SO we started our own forum for a while. 

Over time (10 yrs) some new members joined and most of the members dropped out so now there are about 5 posts a month. That isn't enough to keep a forum viable so I found this site. Our own little forum didn't have the draw related to a book series but we knew the forum would wither away.

Most people are willing to read a book and many books have some helpful information. Yes I bought a lot of paper between covers and also some good relationship books but it takes both people on the same frame of mind to apply the book concepts. 

If OP and her H print out the questionnaires and fill them out, then compare notes, they are not out any money.

I am not on MB because they say and believe they have about the only way/solution to fix marriages. The book "His / Her Needs" is too basic for me because I have other books I consider better. The other MB books could be condensed down to 10 pages of the main points. I know a pastor that has done that and has something similar that he hands out to couples with problems and no money for counselors.

If i had to recommend just one book for an intelligent person, it would be 
"Intimacy & Desire: Awaken the Passion in Your Relationship" by David Schnarch 

I also subscribe to what "Yong at Heart" did with his high caliber counseling and relationship workshops. 

Even so, the MB questionnaires still have a lot of merit. It is a place to start.

Me and the MB questionnaires, my W did one. She said she was interested (mentally) but would never actually do any of the items, so out of almost 80 or 100 questions, we had 2 or 3 matches. She didn't "buy in" to the idea so I knew I was wasting my time.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

If its helping you - ignore the negative comments about it. As you have already found there is lots to read on that site. You don't have to pay for anything or join the forums on these kinds of sites. Just read the articles and discuss with husband and apply concept to your marriage if it fits your situation. I especially love the article on "The Love Bank". Lots of good stuff to be found - the trick is to apply them when needed. 

Several of the other sites with different philosophies are good too. You don't have to necessarily buy into one authors concepts. You can pick and choose what you and your husband needs and then do the work of applying the concepts you choose to your relationship and marriage. Sometimes in reading their stuff, its not their concept that strikes you, but maybe just one thing they right strikes a cord with you or gets you thinking along a line that you need to walk on. You can also take these things back to your counselor and discuss them with her. If she or he is really good they can guide you down the right path you need while discussing what you read.


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## Windwalker (Mar 19, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> Well, in order to answer this I think YOU have to first answer THIS:
> 
> Were you ever truly attracted to him -- as in, can't keep your hands off him, animal lust, insanely drawn to him? Or instead, did he just tick all the boxes on your mental checklist for a suitable mate? Did you marry because you were head over heels in love, or did you "settle" because he was a good guy?
> 
> The answers to those questions will determine my answer to your question.


 @trying2212

You seem to have forgotten to answer what I consider to be the most important question asked. Why is that? 

Care to answer it? 

@AlsoTrying2789

You need to listen real close to the answer she provides, if she does ever answer it. 


Have couple come back and reconciled after an affair to have a better marriage? Although there is a snowball's chance in hell I would do it, yes it can be done. 

Can the two of you do it? No. I look at a number of things. I don't ever thing there was a true primal attraction I also dont think there has been a deep love. Don't get me wrong, I think your husband loves you far more than you probably love him. He just doesn't trip your trigger so to speak. 

Do him a favor as set him free.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

trying2212 said:


> Thanks, @Handy! I really haven't gone out on the boards there. H and I have mostly been reading throug all the information and articles by Dr. Harley. It seems like our best bet to get good information (and some sort of plan.) Reading through it has helped both of us see some really important things about ourselves and make a plan for the short term, at least. Whether or not we can find a passionate love where we had more of a good friendship/companionship awaits to be seen. But I don't think either of us is giving up yet.


Passion is fine, its fun. I've had extremely "passionate", relationships with lots of smoking hot sex that, while they were fun in the moment, became nightmares over the long haul. Passion has a way of turning into obsession, jealousy and possessiveness. 

But a deep, mutually respectful, mature love is better, safer and ultimately more fulfilling in the long run. 

You got sold a bill of goods by your loverboy, and now you want your husband to cash a check that the OM wrote.

You better make damn sure you know what you are trading in, because if you try to make your husband something he can never be, then you are setting him up to fail; and you will be setting yourself up for more resentment and disappointment down the road.


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