# Dominance vs. respect in a strong but troubled marriage



## Kevan (Mar 28, 2011)

My marriage is at a crossroads which could lead to things getting much worse or much better. I don’t see a middle path.

We are older (around 50) and have been married for ten years. We are both smart, mostly successful people and both employed, but we are experiencing continual stress because the economy has left us with far fewer options than we’re used to having, and there’s a feeling of being trapped where we are both career-wise and geographically. The stress is particularly hard on my wife, who doesn’t take naturally to accepting things she can’t change or to patience.

I came to T.A.M. a few months ago after a year of self-examination prompted by Robert Glover’s No Mr. Nice Guy book, together with related books by David Deida and Wayne Levine. The things BigBadWolf, MEM11363, AFEH and Conrad try to get across on this forum resonate deeply with me. I’ve started taking responsibility for myself, and managing my communication, my expectations and my reactions in a way that leaves me self-respect. (Of course, I’ve still got a long way to go.) I’ve recognized the ways in which I sabotaged myself and our marriage by avoiding conflict, not stating my expectations, and acting like a victim, and I’ve taken steps to change.

If this were all there were to it, it would be easy. But my wife and I are both paradoxes in our own ways.

I, although gentle by nature and conviction—I’m a monk type, not a warrior type, and I believe cruelty is among the greatest of sins—am sexually very dominant, and want to be dominant in my marriage. I’ve never allowed that side of me much expression, but after years of repression, I know that I can’t continue to leave it unacknowledged. I want with all my heart for my wife to be secure, safe, and happy. I want us to be truly and joyfully intimate in a way beyond what we have ever been. But I also dream of a relationship in which, in love and trust, she’s given me full authority within our home, which I use to see that both of our needs are met.

She, on the other hand, has issues of trust and security which are greater than most. Over the years it’s become clear that although she wants me to lead (something I didn’t understand at first), she also needs to feel that things are under control, and that if I don’t do things the way she feels is the “right” way, she reacts badly, by becoming distraught, chiding me as if I were a child, or falsely accusing me of bad faith or ill will. When I call her on the way she’s acting, she digs in deeper, bringing up ways I’ve failed in the past as supposed proof of my ongoing unreliability, and disagreeing on any factual matter that’s no longer subject to verification, such as what one of us said or did.

All issues of dominance aside, it’s obvious that we have to address these trust issues in order to become any more intimate than we are now. It bothers me a lot that she sees me as culpably selfish and thoughtless when I’ve actually given thought to her needs and tried to do the right thing, as has happened repeatedly.

I fear to lead more forcefully under these conditions of misunderstanding and mistrust. 

On the other hand, my being rational and patient is getting us nowhere. 

I’m a hands-breadth away from telling her that things will go as I say from here on out, period, and that I’ll get us through this. In a way, that would be being true to myself: for the first time in my life, I truly trust myself and my motives. And although I fear losing her, it’s no longer a crippling fear. More daunting is the fear that being dominant in this way could make her more anxious, not less; of making a mistake that not only ruins our marriage, but harms her emotionally.

I also think there’s an issue of simple human respect involved. She didn’t sign up for a so-called “traditional” marriage in which I have the final say on things. She should have the chance to agree or reject it.

But I doubt she would ever agree. She’s afraid of losing herself to a man’s control, nor do I think she knows that someone can be dominant but not domineering.

Your advice is very welcome.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Kevan,

When you say "rational and patient", what are you describing?

Can you give a couple of examples?


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## Kevan (Mar 28, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Kevan,
> 
> When you say "rational and patient", what are you describing?
> 
> Can you give a couple of examples?


One thing that comes to mind is my habit of responding to all her complaints/criticisms/concerns strictly on their content, even in the heat of argument.

For example, some time ago she had the wet vac out to clean up some pet stains. She was angry at the time because my schedule for cleaning them up wasn't the same as hers. She asked me to move some things in my home office so she could use the wet vac in there. I didn't want her to go in there because it would have meant not being able to use my office for several hours, plus it might discourage our cats from using the litter box in the closet there. So I said "I don't want you to clean in my office." She shouted, "That's pretty dictatorial, isn't it?" To which I responded that "Don't clean in my home office" would have been dictatorial; "I don't want you to clean in my office" was a statement of preference. This mollified her not one bit. And I know from you among others that the issue being discussed was not the real issue.

More broadly, we often talk about things, equal to equal, after fights, and while the communication often brings up important issues and leads to minor improvements on both our parts, it leaves me feeling drained and somewhat disappointed in myself. Like once again I've been proven inadequate in some way.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Less talk, more body language.

Explaining, pleading, rational cases... all for naught.

She's communicating with you on an emotional level and wants to see your masculine strength. It doesn't show in a rational tit-for-tat argument.

Head tilted to one side...

"Your hunter gatherer is stalking prey this afternoon and requires his office to make the kill. I'm thinking we may want to clean the office after the blood's been spilled."


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## Kevan (Mar 28, 2011)

Captain-first officer model, without a doubt. It already works that way much of the time. It is not explicit, though, and one problem is that I am sometimes not shown the respect I deserve simply as a human being.


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

It is good that you are already taking the "Nice guy" books and advice in consideration.

Looking at your situation here are some of my thoughts:



Kevan said:


> My marriage is at a crossroads which could lead to things getting much worse or much better. I don’t see a middle path.
> 
> We are older (around 50) and have been married for ten years. We are both smart, mostly successful people and both employed, but we are experiencing continual stress because the economy has left us with far fewer options than we’re used to having, and there’s a feeling of being trapped where we are both career-wise and geographically. The stress is particularly hard on my wife, who doesn’t take naturally to accepting things she can’t change or to patience.
> 
> I came to T.A.M. a few months ago after a year of self-examination prompted by Robert Glover’s No Mr. Nice Guy book, together with related books by David Deida and Wayne Levine. The things BigBadWolf, MEM11363, AFEH and Conrad try to get across on this forum resonate deeply with me. I’ve started taking responsibility for myself, and managing my communication, my expectations and my reactions in a way that leaves me self-respect. (Of course, I’ve still got a long way to go.) I’ve recognized the ways in which I sabotaged myself and our marriage by avoiding conflict, not stating my expectations, and acting like a victim, and I’ve taken steps to change.


Excellent!



> If this were all there were to it, it would be easy. But my wife and I are both paradoxes in our own ways.
> 
> I, although gentle by nature and conviction—I’m a monk type, not a warrior type, and I believe cruelty is among the greatest of sins—am sexually very dominant, and want to be dominant in my marriage.


These things we speak of, of conflict and confrontation, do not make the mistake to imagine them as some violent caricature of the reality.

You say you are a "monk" not a warrior. That is perfect!

Consider the strength and display of power from the humble Shaolin Monk to compare to your own journey to dominance, then see these things we discuss as your very own person masculine ascent up Songshan Mountain! 



> I’ve never allowed that side of me much expression, but after years of repression, I know that I can’t continue to leave it unacknowledged. I want with all my heart for my wife to be secure, safe, and happy. I want us to be truly and joyfully intimate in a way beyond what we have ever been. But I also dream of a relationship in which, in love and trust, she’s given me full authority within our home, which I use to see that both of our needs are met.


There is not a word I type on this forum that is not in full faith that what a good man envisions for himself, or his marriage, that he can have the same as his reality.



> She, on the other hand, has issues of trust and security which are greater than most. Over the years it’s become clear that although she wants me to lead (something I didn’t understand at first), she also needs to feel that things are under control, and that if I don’t do things the way she feels is the “right” way, she reacts badly, by becoming distraught, chiding me as if I were a child, or falsely accusing me of bad faith or ill will. When I call her on the way she’s acting, she digs in deeper, bringing up ways I’ve failed in the past as supposed proof of my ongoing unreliability, and disagreeing on any factual matter that’s no longer subject to verification, such as what one of us said or did.


Fitness testing, in it's various forms, flows ultimately from insecurity.

And your observations are correct, how she FEELS, whether the situation is "right" or "wrong", that is the driver. 

It is emotion, primal emotion, and not logic. 

So it cannot be remedied by mere words, or rational persuasion, discussion, or debate. Much less by any arguing!



> All issues of dominance aside, it’s obvious that we have to address these trust issues in order to become any more intimate than we are now. It bothers me a lot that she sees me as culpably selfish and thoughtless when I’ve actually given thought to her needs and tried to do the right thing, as has happened repeatedly.


Do what you KNOW is right, that is the foundation.

On that foundation, put in place the confidence, passing fitness tests, dominant and masculine attitude.

Finally, then, is the place for communicating your leadership and vision, and setting this goal, and working toward this goal, is the way of making your vision the reality.



> I fear to lead more forcefully under these conditions of misunderstanding and mistrust.


Do not confuse mistrust with insecurity.

Trust is earned over time, from seeing results of wise and proper actions and decisions.

Insecurity, much less tangible, much less tactile. It is emotional, and responds in kind to primal, emotional actions and behaviors. We call this, in this situation, dominance. 



> On the other hand, my being rational and patient is getting us nowhere.


More evidence the issue is insecurity.



> I’m a hands-breadth away from telling her that things will go as I say from here on out, period, and that I’ll get us through this. In a way, that would be being true to myself: for the first time in my life, I truly trust myself and my motives. And although I fear losing her, it’s no longer a crippling fear. More daunting is the fear that being dominant in this way could make her more anxious, not less; of making a mistake that not only ruins our marriage, but harms her emotionally.


Put in place what needs to be in place, then lead with confidence!

But do not do one without the other.



> I also think there’s an issue of simple human respect involved. She didn’t sign up for a so-called “traditional” marriage in which I have the final say on things. She should have the chance to agree or reject it.


What does her action and behavior tell you already what she signed up for, and what she will accept or reject.

You likely have already had your answer for a long time.



> But I doubt she would ever agree. She’s afraid of losing herself to a man’s control, nor do I think she knows that someone can be dominant but not domineering.
> 
> Your advice is very welcome.


Don't discuss this with words, or attempt to use logic or rational arguing or debate.

And do NOT seek her permission! That is tripping right out of the gate!

Put in place what needs to be in place, and then judge for yourself on the results. 

I wish you well.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Kevan said:


> I, although gentle by nature and conviction—I’m a monk type, not a warrior type, and I believe cruelty is among the greatest of sins


Just for clarity - when you say "monk", are we talking shaolin temple or the Rule of St Benedict here?


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Head tilted to one side...
> 
> "Your hunter gatherer is stalking prey this afternoon and requires his office to make the kill. I'm thinking we may want to clean the office after the blood's been spilled."


Are you for real?


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

Kevan . . .not really any words of insight here except how did you write about my life/marriage so accurately. 

For what it's worth . . . one thing I learned from these posts is that the man-up/no more doormat thing is multi-faceted and works amazingly well (far beyond what I would have thought). I thought it was macho BS about 'the higher the pedestal, the harder you push the vacuum' the more she'll walk all over you. 

I wasn't/am not a total doormat or 'nice guy' (I don't think), but by chance, after several nights of coming home with a chip on my shoulder and tired of picking up everyone else's crap (who have been home on summer vacation all day), the wife's disposition changed dramatically. I think it's a bit sh!tty that by not being the super-nice guy, I get treated well . . .but whatever works! Wow. I'll be reading this thread with much interest. I still need some fine-tuning.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jayde,

She responds to "you", not to some "super-nice guy" manipulative version of you.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> Are you for real?


lol... If my H said Conrad's comment in the same situation, it would totally make me bust up laughing. :rofl:

But maybe that's the point...humor can surely defuse a tense situation and put it on a different footing.


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## walkingwounded (May 7, 2011)

You say you dream of a relationship in which she's given you "full authority" within your home. I'm wondering what specifically you are covering when you say this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

When I found my marriage at a crossroads more than a year after D-Day, it was confidence that garnered respect from my wife. With the discovery of her EA I made the typical mistakes most make. Trying to shoulder all the blame, not recognizing the fog she was in, begging and trying to immediately morph back into the knight in shining armor. All that got me was more distance from her, more lack of respect and her depending on TOM even more. What I mean by lack of respect is that I turned into just the kind of man she didn't want in her life. She needed me to take her hand and lead. Once I got my arms around it, read Love Must be Tough and worked on my confidence the tables slowly began to turn. She began to "believe" the marriage could recover because she saw my confidence in it come back. So when we reached what I considered my crossroads, the second breach of NC, there was no hesitance in the conversation. It was cool and controlled. She knew it was my deal breaker and without that it was a show stopper. She both resented me for making her do it and respected me for setting the boundary. When I joined TAM in early 2008 I included confidence in my signature line as one of the four words I thought would pull us through. It turned out to be one of the most critical in regaining my wife, my marriage and my life. Carry yourself with confidence with your wife and she will respect you.


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## Kevan (Mar 28, 2011)

BigBadWolf said:


> You say you are a "monk" not a warrior. That is perfect! ... Consider the strength and display of power from the humble Shaolin Monk to compare to your own journey to dominance, then see these things we discuss as your very own person masculine ascent up Songshan Mountain!


This made me smile. What a great vision.



BigBadWolf said:


> Trust is earned over time, from seeing results of wise and proper actions and decisions. ... Insecurity, much less tangible, much less tactile. It is emotional, and responds in kind to primal, emotional actions and behaviors. We call this, in this situation, dominance.


I get it. What I'm having trouble with is determining whether her level of trust in me is sufficient for me to be more dominant. She's told me she has trouble trusting me. But I believe I've done enough to have earned her trust, and that there's ultimately not much I more I can do to prove myself to her. Is her lack of trust just her insecurity talking? Or does she really have deep-seated trust issues that could lead her to view my dominance as a threat to her person and safety?

_I_ know I'm trustworthy...but if _she_ doesn't or can't believe it, surely I have to proceed very carefully with her.




BigBadWolf said:


> Put in place what needs to be in place, then lead with confidence! ... But do not do one without the other.


I wish I knew how to be sure of what needs to be in place.



BigBadWolf said:


> What does her action and behavior tell you already what she signed up for, and what she will accept or reject.


Part of my wake-up call came on a couple of occasions when I asked her to do whatever I asked for a day, as a birthday present. Not only did we have a great time, she just glowed with happiness and security for a couple of days afterward. 

But she won't acknowledge this, and my dominance wasn't at all tested on those days--we had no conflict. And when she fights, she really fights. Emotional and dirty. Accusatory, contemptuous, and frighteningly certain of her mistaken ideas of what's going on in my head. This is the behavior I haven't tested myself against.




BigBadWolf said:


> And do NOT seek her permission! That is tripping right out of the gate!
> 
> Put in place what needs to be in place, and then judge for yourself on the results.


As Wilde said, there are temptations it takes strength and courage to yield to. 

Do I really know what's good for her?


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## Kevan (Mar 28, 2011)

Amplexor said:


> When I found my marriage at a crossroads more than a year after D-Day, it was confidence that garnered respect from my wife. With the discovery of her EA I made the typical mistakes most make. Trying to shoulder all the blame, not recognizing the fog she was in, begging and trying to immediately morph back into the knight in shining armor. All that got me was more distance from her, more lack of respect and her depending on TOM even more. What I mean by lack of respect is that I turned into just the kind of man she didn't want in her life. She needed me to take her hand and lead. Once I got my arms around it, read Love Must be Tough and worked on my confidence the tables slowly began to turn. She began to "believe" the marriage could recover because she saw my confidence in it come back. So when we reached what I considered my crossroads, the second breach of NC, there was no hesitance in the conversation. It was cool and controlled. She knew it was my deal breaker and without that it was a show stopper. She both resented me for making her do it and respected me for setting the boundary. When I joined TAM in early 2008 I included confidence in my signature line as one of the four words I thought would pull us through. It turned out to be one of the most critical in regaining my wife, my marriage and my life. Carry yourself with confidence with your wife and she will respect you.


Amplexor, thank you. As you can tell from my response to BBW just above, right now I'm trying to find the confidence. 

Fortunately, in our case there's no question of infidelity.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Kevan said:


> Amplexor, thank you. As you can tell from my response to BBW just above, right now I'm trying to find the confidence.


It all starts within yourself.

"_Nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent_." ~Eleanor Roosevelt


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## BigBadWolf (Nov 30, 2009)

Kevan said:


> What I'm having trouble with is determining whether her level of trust in me is sufficient for me to be more dominant.


This is not merely splitting hairs, but even much MUCH finer splitting than any hair, these things we discuss on male dominance, or increasing attraction, or "manning up", or being "more alpha", no matter what we call it, it must be done with this attitude above all others:

You are doing this for you.

All these doubts in your mind, and reservations I am reading from you, they are shadows of one issue, that you don't trust yourself to move forward without her permission or approval.

You know already, from your books, and reading on this forum, as a man, seeking a woman's approval to be free to express the dominance you are hiding inside, is contradictory. 



> She's told me she has trouble trusting me. But I believe I've done enough to have earned her trust, and that there's ultimately not much I more I can do to prove myself to her.


Then stop worrying about it, you have done the hard lifting.

Now imagine as an image, some childlike part of you still requiring her or any other woman's approval, as if she was your mother, and you believing you have to "prove" yourself to her. 

Now imagine telling this pathetic image to "[email protected] OFF" and imagine throwing this deceitful vision off the tallest cliff into the deepest ravine.

For that is just what needs to happen, your need to seek validation from any other human being on this earth needs to be cast off, and validation, confidence, ego, c0ckiness, all these things, need to come from inside YOU, and ONLY YOU.



> Is her lack of trust just her insecurity talking?


Everything you have type so far screams this.



> Or does she really have deep-seated trust issues that could lead her to view my dominance as a threat to her person and safety?


A woman is attracted to the confident man, the dominant man, the man who both knows what he wants and is not afraid to pursue what he wants, just like a moth to a flame.

Yes, the fire is a threat to the moth, but also warmth, light.

A woman is not afraid of such a threat, given the man has shown his mettle that she is his woman, and he is her man.

Then, try to understand this, this "threat" is instead a "thrill".

So I will ask, does a woman run in fear from a strong man, or a man skilled a fighting, or a "bad boy", or a "outlaw biker", or a "dashing pirate"? 

Or are such men SO much of an attraction that Romance Novels are written of the fire such men light in women? 

Do not be afraid to have an edge, a dark side, and let it show from time to time.

Much like a rollercoaster at an amusement park, it is thrilling when all other pieces are in place, to experience the rush of speed, falling, and weightlessness, of course without LITERALLY careening off a cliff. 

The balance of this, the good man, confident, giving a feeling of security, but with the thrill of having an edge, and yes even a bit of mystery. That is the goal.



> _I_ know I'm trustworthy...but if _she_ doesn't or can't believe it, surely I have to proceed very carefully with her.


You're being FAR too rational about this.

As I told another man not long ago, embrace IRRATIONAL CONFIDENCE on these matters.

Confidence, Dominance, Ego, concerning a woman's hypergamous sexual imperative, having too much of these things is like worrying about having too much money, or being too good looking!



> I wish I knew how to be sure of what needs to be in place.


Ask yourself, are you a good husband? A good man? The kind of man you would be happy your daughter finding in her own husband?

IF so, then all is well, full speed ahead!

If not, fix what needs to be fixing, and full speed ahead!



> Part of my wake-up call came on a couple of occasions when I asked her to do whatever I asked for a day, as a birthday present. Not only did we have a great time, she just glowed with happiness and security for a couple of days afterward.


Actions speak louder than words.

Her actions are screaming.



> But she won't acknowledge this, and my dominance wasn't at all tested on those days--we had no conflict.


Either you had already slayed what dragons needed to be slayed, or you needed to provide some conflict yourself.

In those good places in relationships, as a man do not be afraid to express your wants and desires, even your darkest and deepest with your woman. 



> And when she fights, she really fights. Emotional and dirty. Accusatory, contemptuous, and frighteningly certain of her mistaken ideas of what's going on in my head. This is the behavior I haven't tested myself against.


Concerning this very thing, most often the more difficult the dragon, the greater the reward.

A woman, full of passion and fire, no matter how frightening or intimidating such a woman may be, say to a recovering nice guy, it is merely a shimmering glimpse of the incredible passion and fire to be released emotionally and femininely and sexually to the man worthy to win this gift of her vulnerability.

This is simply the essence of all of this.



> As Wilde said, there are temptations it takes strength and courage to yield to.


Nothing is more truly an example of this than in this very subject!



> Do I really know what's good for her?


Her actions and behaviors will guide you, as any woman will guide the man she loves, as long as he is attentive enough to notice, and bold enough to act. 

But, stop asking this.

Ask instead this:

"What do I want? What are my desires?"

Get out of the habit of worrying about following some imagination of what anyone else may or may not want. 

Get into the habit of asking these questions, about YOU and what YOU want!

I will say, the answer to your first question, "what does she want?", is most likely that she wants to see her man stand up, confidently and boldly asking the second questions, and giving her the privilege and gift of discovering the answers together with you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

When my W fights - she really fights. Amazing how powerful it is to just tilt my head and say "No" and then quietly look at her. If she "persists" in being dysfunctionally aggressive I walk away and close a door between us. 

And there is NO FURTHER communication other than polite but cool discussion of schedules until she comes to her senses. 

Cleaning the office LMAO. Patience is not a virtue my W is familiar with. I tease her about it relentlessly but in a humorous way. And I am NOT mean, and NOT angry about it. It is her issue not mine. 



Kevan said:


> This made me smile. What a great vision.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kevan (Mar 28, 2011)

BBW, if I had a place that only I could visit, your words would be hung on the wall for me to see all the time.

I know the time has come to act, but I want to explain my doubts and hesitations a little further--not to be argumentative, but for the benefit of other men who may see themselves in me. And if what I say provokes further comment, so much the better.



BigBadWolf said:


> All these doubts in your mind, and reservations I am reading from you, they are shadows of one issue, that you don't trust yourself to move forward without her permission or approval.


More precisely: I trust my motives, but not my correctness. I'm a skeptical person who counts little of his own knowledge as truly certain--especially in the human realm. When I was a child, I knew that adults had it better. When I was a teenager, I knew that the world's problems could be solved politically. When I was a young man, I knew that all the traditional ideas about the nature of the sexes were false. All of these beliefs were untrue. How dare I impose my current belief about what is right on the person I love most?

It seems I must manufacture the confidence I don't have, and wear it like a borrowed uniform. There is no other way, is there? 



> You're being FAR too rational about this.
> 
> As I told another man not long ago, embrace IRRATIONAL CONFIDENCE on these matters.


Your use of the phrase is remarkable synchronicity, as I've just discovered the power of irrational confidence--exactly the phrase I used to myself--during a new project at work. I'll never again approach a project without it. Guess I need to bring that home!


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

BigBadWolf said:


> A woman is not afraid of such a threat, given the man has shown his mettle that she is his woman, and he is her man.
> 
> Then, try to understand this, this "threat" is instead a "thrill".
> 
> ...


The difference is those men aren't real. The ones in the films and romance novels aren't fantasies. The candle can't burn you in that case.

I can make a good case of being, as you put it, "..._a strong man, or a man skilled a fighting...". _I've a black belt in juijutsu, did two tours of Ulster and have been within a half pound of trigger pressure of putting a bullet in a man's head on at least two occassions. Friends of my wife don't find me "scary sexy", they find me just scary. The fantasy of someone dangerous is one thing, and apparently a sexy thing, but being confronted by someone who really has been willing to shoot someone dead or beat them to the ground with a rifle butt isn't necessarily the same.

Of course, I look f*ck-all like Antonio Banderas in Desperado (or anything else!), so maybe that's the problem.


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## Kevan (Mar 28, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> When my W fights - she really fights. Amazing how powerful it is to just tilt my head and say "No" and then quietly look at her. If she "persists" in being dysfunctionally aggressive I walk away and close a door between us.
> 
> And there is NO FURTHER communication other than polite but cool discussion of schedules until she comes to her senses.


That's all it takes? She doesn't follow you around b!tching at you? She doesn't open the door?

In an old post you identified your wife as a 4 on this scale:

1: Hates conflict. Will actually directly lie to avoid it.
2: Dislikes conflict. Will NOT proactively tell you when she is unhappy. She will however acknowledge her feelings in a half assed and watered down manner if you ask her direct questions about specific situations.
3: Is neutral on conflict. Doesn't like it or dislike it. I would describe this woman as "classically assertive". She handles situations in a "textbook" manner.
4: She is moderately aggressive. She likes conflict and can be b!tchy at times without reason.
5: She is pure alpha. Wants to be in control all the time.

Mine's a 4 during ordinary times, a 3 during great times (vacation, etc.) and a 5 when she's angry or stressed beyond her ability to handle it. For most of our relationship I've been a 2.

The response you've just mentioned strikes me as a 3.5--not enough to handle a 4. 

Seems like my own challenge, when my wife is being a 4.5 or an out-of-control 5, is to find my own 5, while maintaining control over myself.


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## Kevan (Mar 28, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Less talk, more body language


Conrad, I've been thinking about this. I think one thing I can do to let her know I'm serious is to move firmly and confidently to within a few feet of her when I've had enough. In replaying our last heated argument, I realized that I tend to put distance between us when we're in conflict.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kevan,
Your post is excellent as is your memory. So let me take you through the sequence but first a philosophy I learned at the feet of my father (who passed away a few years ago):

*Use the minimum amount of force necessary to achieve the objective. *

If my W were to follow me after I left the room and put a closed door between us I would give her a puzzled look and say "you are already prepared to apologize - hmm that's surely a personal best for you"

And if she did anything else I didn't like at that point I would leave the house - if she resumed when I got home I would pack and stay at a hotel. 

My W knows all this - has experienced a rapid and sustained drop in temperature if she tries to bully me so she doesn't really try. If she COULD bully me, she would leave me. Not right away but eventually. She would LOATHE me if I let her bully me. Instead she is in love with me partly because she respects and has a healthy fear of me. 

But generally I don't get angry (hot), I get cold, determined and ruthless when she is being batsheit crazy. 




Kevan said:


> That's all it takes? She doesn't follow you around b!tching at you? She doesn't open the door?
> 
> In an old post you identified your wife as a 4 on this scale:
> 
> ...


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## Kevan (Mar 28, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Kevan,
> Your post is excellent as is your memory.


Thanks, MEM. I use the forum like a textbook, and when I see something great, it gets underlined (saved to a text file).

I think your strategy takes a great deal of patience--after all, she's violating your boundaries right and left, and all you're delivering is a temperature drop.



> So let me take you through the sequence but first a philosophy I learned at the feet of my father (who passed away a few years ago):
> 
> *Use the minimum amount of force necessary to achieve the objective. *
> 
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

She gets the message when you retreat.

Say what you have to say - calmly and firmly. THEN - and only then - leave the room if you are done.



Kevan said:


> Conrad, I've been thinking about this. I think one thing I can do to let her know I'm serious is to move firmly and confidently to within a few feet of her when I've had enough. In replaying our last heated argument, I realized that I tend to put distance between us when we're in conflict.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Damn - that post rocked my world the first time I read it.

I actually asked MEM to re-print for our friend BlackMedicine



Kevan said:


> That's all it takes? She doesn't follow you around b!tching at you? She doesn't open the door?
> 
> In an old post you identified your wife as a 4 on this scale:
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Kevan,
It does take patience. But most boundary stuff she does is minor and intended to create play. That stuff gets resolved in seconds or minutes.

The bigger stuff. Give you an example - guys wife gets over the top he goes
To a hotel. Let's say they both know it was her. He reaches out to her first, desnt matter how, he is mainly toast because he is trying to make up because he can't tolerate conflict.
That pattern is very bad.


E=Kevan;407086]Thanks, MEM. I use the forum like a textbook, and when I see something great, it gets underlined (saved to a text file).

I think your strategy takes a great deal of patience--after all, she's violating your boundaries right and left, and all you're delivering is a temperature drop.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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