# Rethinking infidelity ... a talk for anyone who has ever loved



## Leobwin (Apr 28, 2012)

Pin. Drop.

http://on.ted.com/t0bdX

Infidelity is the ultimate betrayal. But does it have to be? Relationship therapist Esther Perel examines why people cheat, and unpacks why affairs are so traumatic: because they threaten our emotional security. In infidelity, she sees something unexpected — an expression of longing and loss. A must-watch for anyone who has ever cheated or been cheated on, or who simply wants a new framework for understanding relationships.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

That was good. Thanks for sharing.


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

A partner not devastated by infidelity was never in the relationship.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Puts another spin on excuse making.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

* That was extremely enlightening! I am happy to see that Esther, however, does leave the door open to reconciliation as a means to save a marriage where infidelity has occurred!

But to do that, it's going to be a most arduous task in rebuilding a most cherished trust!

After all, the killer of a marriage is usually not the illicit sex itself, but the rampant deception employed in bringing that act about! *


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I dunno. 

I've read her "Mating in Captivity" book and it's really opened my eyes. As has listening to a few of Dan Savage's podcasts.

And a recent experience.

I've been cheated on. And it sucks and it made me feel like I was going to die. And it was an 'exit affair' not what she's talking about (I think, I can't watch the vid from work).

My recent experience is some close family friends. The husband REFUSED to have sex with his wife. For years.

The've separated and she's gone dark. As has he. It has been suspected that she had at least one fling, perhaps more.

Now, the question I have in my mind after reading her book is...

What if she was having the flings to _stay married?_ After at least 3 years with no sex?

Man, life is complicated. I think the minute you willfully retract sex from your marriage for months or years for no good reason, you've kinda put everyone in a no-win scenario. Or even if you have unsatisfying sex and you or your partner just won't try to fix it.


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## len51 (May 22, 2015)

My wife and I do not view sexual fidelity as the ultimate betrayal. It greatly depends if the married couple consider it as such. We have been married over 40 years and both of us have had sexual relations with others and even shared some. We know that you can love more than one person and also hold your marriage as the primary relationship whose needs come before any other. 

Most are surprised that we never had an issue with our lifestyle. It worked for us and monogamy failed for all of our friends and family, so which is better or worse? I think it depends on the people involved and if they feel that a relationship with someone else takes away from the marriage or not. It can actually put new life into a stale marriage. I read so many posts about people stuck in marriages with spouses that do not meet their emotional or sexual needs. The result is often divorce because they have no other option that is not considered a betrayal. 

I admit our lifestyle is not for everyone and is a mine field with more mines than field but lets face it, nothing is a betrayal unless we consider it so and in our society we are taught that sexual fidelity is important. It used to be very important in our evolutionary development but most of the reasons for it no longer exist in modern times. Birth control has changed a lot of things so what are we afraid of? It is mostly insecurity and an idea that people belong to each other, forsaken all others. That does not seem to be working well these days.

Yet, we are pretty conservative and despite allowing each other sexual freedom, we rarely exercise it and pretty much stopped a few decades ago. Too stressful to manage more than one relationship and logistically and emotionally exhausting. We are currently monogamous again for the last 5 years but that is not by choice. 

For us, betrayal is violating any rules we have about extramarital relationships and not just the EM relationship itself. I loved another woman who I would never live with or marry. She fulfilled a need in me that my wife could not even if she wanted to. She knew she came second to my wife and respected that for a very long time. However, my girlfriend was not someone I would like to share a home or life with. It can get very complicated but communication and honesty go a long way to smooth the road.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

len51 said:


> My wife and I do not view sexual fidelity as the ultimate betrayal. It greatly depends if the married couple consider it as such. We have been married over 40 years and both of us have had sexual relations with others and even shared some. We know that you can love more than one person and also hold your marriage as the primary relationship whose needs come before any other.
> 
> Most are surprised that we never had an issue with our lifestyle. It worked for us and monogamy failed for all of our friends and family, so which is better or worse? I think it depends on the people involved and if they feel that a relationship with someone else takes away from the marriage or not. It can actually put new life into a stale marriage. I read so many posts about people stuck in marriages with spouses that do not meet their emotional or sexual needs. The result is often divorce because they have no other option that is not considered a betrayal.
> 
> ...


Curious....what was that need?

This is an interesting perspective. I can't imagine being secure enough to be able to endure this type of relationship, but whatever floats your boat.


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## Brigit (Apr 28, 2015)

marduk said:


> I dunno.
> 
> Man, life is complicated. I think the minute you willfully retract sex from your marriage for months or years for no good reason, you've kinda put everyone in a no-win scenario.


I agree. Sometimes the situation is very messy and complicated and quick solutions aren't to be found.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

SecondTime'Round said:


> len51 said:
> 
> 
> > My wife and I do not view sexual fidelity as the ultimate betrayal. It greatly depends if the married couple consider it as such. We have been married over 40 years and both of us have had sexual relations with others and even shared some. We know that you can love more than one person and also hold your marriage as the primary relationship whose needs come before any other.
> ...


* I know that I am just way too much of a committed traditionalist to ever consider doing anything like that! Just saying!*


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

len51 said:


> My wife and I do not view sexual fidelity as the ultimate betrayal. It greatly depends if the married couple consider it as such. We have been married over 40 years and both of us have had sexual relations with others and even shared some. We know that you can love more than one person and also hold your marriage as the primary relationship whose needs come before any other.
> 
> Most are surprised that we never had an issue with our lifestyle. It worked for us and monogamy failed for all of our friends and family, so which is better or worse? I think it depends on the people involved and if they feel that a relationship with someone else takes away from the marriage or not. It can actually put new life into a stale marriage. I read so many posts about people stuck in marriages with spouses that do not meet their emotional or sexual needs. The result is often divorce because they have no other option that is not considered a betrayal.
> 
> ...


this is just another bogus excuse for getting some strange. It's perfectly all right to do so , if both parties agree, but don't make it out as more than that......because it isn't. My ex wife said ....post affair...that it wasn't about the sex. If it isn't about the sex....why have the sex? 
I would be interested in what you consider"love" and what you consider "needs". Sounds to me...Geezer, like you are making it up, as you go. I would try calling a spade , a spade, and see how that goes.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> this is just another bogus excuse for getting some strange. It's perfectly all right to do so , if both parties agree, but don't make it out as more than that......because it isn't. My ex wife said ....post affair...that it wasn't about the sex. If it isn't about the sex....why have the sex?
> I would be interested in what you consider"love" and what you consider "needs". Sounds to me...Geezer, like you are making it up, as you go. I would try calling a spade , a spade, and see how that goes.


Cue mori...

Because sex is the currency of an affair.


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## len51 (May 22, 2015)

Rookie4 said:


> this is just another bogus excuse for getting some strange. It's perfectly all right to do so , if both parties agree, but don't make it out as more than that......because it isn't. My ex wife said ....post affair...that it wasn't about the sex. If it isn't about the sex....why have the sex?
> I would be interested in what you consider"love" and what you consider "needs". Sounds to me...Geezer, like you are making it up, as you go. I would try calling a spade , a spade, and see how that goes.


You talk as if you know us. Our girlfriend lived with us for most of our marriage until she got married and then stayed with us part time. She married a guy who was OK with that. He is a doctor who has no problems in sharing his wife with me. Most people only know their vanilla lives but there is a whole different world out there that outsiders never see. 

You do not seem to know much about a Polyamorous lifestyle or you would not make the uninformed statements that you made. Let me know when you reach 40 years of marriage and then we can talk about your idea of a marriage and mine. 

There is a big difference in getting some strange and an extended family. Yes I did get some "strange" and so what. My wife was cool with that and no harm was done. However, most of the women I was with were lovers, not strange. We had a relationship. It is not always about sex as you think. We all have other needs that our spouses cannot fulfill and we can be posting about how miserable we are, as many on this forum and others do, or do something about it so we are all happy in our lives and preserve our marriage.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

* Well, I suppose that if one is busy tapping away at say two, three, four, or even forty pieces of "strange," simultaneously on a fairly consistent basis, then over the course of time, none of it really remains "strange" anymore!

 N'est-ce pas? *


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## len51 (May 22, 2015)

Many vanilla people think that having other lovers can only be done in a affair. I rarely even had sex until after a few dates. I only enjoy sex with women that I have some sort of emotional bond with. That has chased off those women only looking for sex but who cares. 

I do not like affairs because they are a betrayal of trust or vow. If everyone knows about it and approves, it is not an affair. It is just having another lover in addition to the ones you already have. This is a difficult concept for many to understand. They see it as just having sex with others. I thought the same until I entered a polyamorous relationship. It is an extended family not getting "strange". 

I now that many have a hard time wrapping their heads around non monogamy but that is their problem, not mine. My marriage has outlasted most every friend and family member we have. Monogamy did not seem to work out for them. Those that are still married live boring lives and we never see them being affectionate with each other. They appear to be just staying married because they are used to it. 

What we did worked for us and no one was ever harmed in the process, so what is the problem? Right now we are monogamous again for the past 5 years today. We will probably stay this way due to our age but if another women comes along that wants to share our life, we would welcome her because having experience monogamy and polyamory, poly is a heck of a lot more fulfilling and fun.  How can anyone speak about something they never tried? Society puts a lot of pressure on all of us to conform. I do not like to conform. I have only one life and will lead it the way I want to as long as I do no harm to others.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

I watched Esther Perel's TED video "Rethinking Infidelity..." and there were a few things that caught my eye:

1.


Esther Perel said:


> "As Marcel Proust said, it's our imagination that is responsible for love, not the other person."


 More often than not the AP is nothing but a tool for the WS. The AP is the drug dealer of the happy brain chemicals the WS is addicted to.

2.


Esther Perel said:


> "But we also have never been more inclined to stray, and not because we have new desires today, but because we live in an era where we feel that we are entitled to pursue our desires, because this is the culture where I deserve to be happy. And if we used to divorce because we were unhappy, today we divorce because we could be happier."


 So true. In this time, we are wealthier, freer and though we pay lip service to committments, in reality we end up treating them as nothing more than amusing indulgences.

3. This one's for you len51


Esther Perel said:


> "Now some of you probably think that affairs don't happen in open relationships, but they do. First of all, the conversation about monogamy is not the same as the conversation about infidelity. But the fact is that it seems that even when we have the freedom to have other sexual partners, we still seem to be lured by the power of the forbidden, that if we do that which we are not supposed to do, then we feel like we are really doing what we want to."


 I was listening to a podcast where a polyamorous couple (not married to each other) were interviewed and the man said "mate within your own species" meaning that a person in a monogamous relationship should never get involved with a polyamorous person and vice versa. It's sad that cheaters don't heed this bit of wise advice.

And len51, you spoke about betrayal as the breaking of established rules by a common accord, well guess what happens in monogamous relationships? Yep, a breaking of the rules but of an agreed upon exclusive relationship. So brother, your species is just as vulnerable as mine.

4.


Esther Perel said:


> But because I think that good can come out of an affair, I have often been asked this very strange question: Would I ever recommend it? Now, I would no more recommend you have an affair than I would recommend you have cancer, and yet we know that people who have been ill often talk about how their illness has yielded them a new perspective."


 Good point. But I don't want to experience a NDE (near death experience) to "find Jesus" (I'd rather wait until I truly croak). The same goes with my XWW's affair being a catalyst to an unwanted evolutionary growth and painful transhumanist transformation. Sounds very interesting but I think I'll pass, thank you. I'm happy just being a good ol' **** sapiens male primate.

And Gus, sex IS the currency of the affair and a devalued one at best because of it.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

len51 said:


> You talk as if you know us. Our girlfriend lived with us for most of our marriage until she got married and then stayed with us part time. She married a guy who was OK with that. He is a doctor who has no problems in sharing his wife with me. Most people only know their vanilla lives but there is a whole different world out there that outsiders never see.
> 
> You do not seem to know much about a Polyamorous lifestyle or you would not make the uninformed statements that you made. Let me know when you reach 40 years of marriage and then we can talk about your idea of a marriage and mine.
> 
> There is a big difference in getting some strange and an extended family. Yes I did get some "strange" and so what. My wife was cool with that and no harm was done. However, most of the women I was with were lovers, not strange. We had a relationship. It is not always about sex as you think. We all have other needs that our spouses cannot fulfill and we can be posting about how miserable we are, as many on this forum and others do, or do something about it so we are all happy in our lives and preserve our marriage.


1st, let me say that age does not automatically confer wisdom. For 2,000 years mankind believed the earth was flat. Does longevity automatically confer legitimacy on that belief? No, of course not. So, neither does your 40 years of marriage.....it only means you have been married 40 years, perhaps your marital reasoning is bad, and you have been mistaken for 40 years? Possible, right? You have no more wisdom than any of the rest of us.
2nd if this isn't about the sex, with these other people you mention, then why have the sex? Why take the medicine, if you do not have the illness? You are simply trying to justify your lifestyle....which is your right to do so, but don't try to make more out of it than that. Wisdom and Saintliness, usually require no justification.


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## criedariver (Jul 2, 2012)

J


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I will have to check out this Perel woman, in more depth.. From the indications , she sounds like a barracks lawyer and axe grinder.


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## len51 (May 22, 2015)

Rookie4 said:


> 1st, let me say that age does not automatically confer wisdom. For 2,000 years mankind believed the earth was flat. Does longevity automatically confer legitimacy on that belief? No, of course not. So, neither does your 40 years of marriage.....it only means you have been married 40 years, perhaps your marital reasoning is bad, and you have been mistaken for 40 years? Possible, right? You have no more wisdom than any of the rest of us.
> 2nd if this isn't about the sex, with these other people you mention, then why have the sex? Why take the medicine, if you do not have the illness? You are simply trying to justify your lifestyle....which is your right to do so, but don't try to make more out of it than that. Wisdom and Saintliness, usually require no justification.


I can see that I am wasting my time with you. I do not have to justify my lifestyle. My wife is bisexual, is yours? Do you belong to any sex clubs or engage in very kinky fetishes? You live in a vanilla world where you pass moral judgment on everyone who does not live like you do. 

I had to laugh when you said that we may be living our life wrong despite it working for us. My mother told me not to argue with people like you so this will be my last post on this. You can have the last word because you seem to need to defend how your life is right and mine is wrong. I am very different than you and until you are in my league I am not going to play ball with you. Have a nice vanilla life.


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## len51 (May 22, 2015)

Rookie4 said:


> this is just another bogus excuse for getting some strange. It's perfectly all right to do so , if both parties agree, but don't make it out as more than that......because it isn't. My ex wife said ....post affair...that it wasn't about the sex. If it isn't about the sex....why have the sex?
> I would be interested in what you consider"love" and what you consider "needs". Sounds to me...Geezer, like you are making it up, as you go. I would try calling a spade , a spade, and see how that goes.


For someone hiding their relationship status and other info, you seem to like to pontificate about relationships without disclosing yours. You seem to feel that you hold the moral high ground. You are trying to tell me that despite the success of my long term marriage and having lived in both a monogamous and poly marriage, you know more than I do about it and I have not gained any wisdom because of it. You sound like a kid so I will not continue debating with you and just add you to my ignore list. I am sure you can find many who believe as you do, especially those on the verge of divorce who will live their lives in serial monogamy, going from one marriage to the next. My friend is on his 4th marriage and still tries to tell my a polyamorous lifestyle cannot work. 

Have a nice life and perhaps when you get married and gain some experience and wisdom you may think differently.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

len51 said:


> You talk as if you know us. Our girlfriend lived with us for most of our marriage until she got married and then stayed with us part time. She married a guy who was OK with that. He is a doctor who has no problems in sharing his wife with me. Most people only know their vanilla lives but there is a whole different world out there that outsiders never see.
> 
> You do not seem to know much about a Polyamorous lifestyle or you would not make the uninformed statements that you made. Let me know when you reach 40 years of marriage and then we can talk about your idea of a marriage and mine.
> 
> There is a big difference in getting some strange and an extended family. Yes I did get some "strange" and so what. My wife was cool with that and no harm was done. However, most of the women I was with were lovers, not strange. We had a relationship. It is not always about sex as you think. We all have other needs that our spouses cannot fulfill and we can be posting about how miserable we are, as many on this forum and others do, or do something about it so we are all happy in our lives and preserve our marriage.


This is a thread about infidelity and you are poorly trying to promote your alien agenda.

Your wife certainly isn't satisfying or enough for you. You have made that abundantly clear on the wrong thread.

Start your own thread about how lacking your wife is and how you need girlfriends and other men's wives to satisfy you.

Seriously, start your own thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

len51 said:


> I can see that I am wasting my time with you. I do not have to justify my lifestyle. My wife is bisexual, is yours? Do you belong to any sex clubs or engage in very kinky fetishes? *You live in a vanilla world where you pass moral judgment on everyone who does not live like you do. *
> 
> I had to laugh when you said that we may be living our life wrong despite it working for us. My mother told me not to argue with people like you so this will be my last post on this. You can have the last word because you seem to need to defend how your life is right and mine is wrong. I am very different than you and until you are in my league I am not going to play ball with you. Have a nice vanilla life.


Using the term vanilla is passing judgement using a different set of ethics. If by vanilla you mean only one flavor (one person, "routine" sex style), that "vanilla" may be Double F'in Fudge Rainbow with Sprinkles and Caramel Sauce with the right one person. 

You're not really representing polyamory very well. Your comments make people think you're a sex snob, and for an old geezer you should known better. Enlightened polyamorists wouldn't judge others for being monogamous or uninitiated. The amor in that word is love/connection, or allowance of sexual liberty. How do you know what people have experimented with here and what they've chosen as their own calling or comfort level. Poly people don't "cheat"? Sure they do. Ground rules vary and the bond between the couple can vary over time. Some want to get out of the lifestyle while the other does not. 

This is an infidelity board. People are vulnerable and being forced to share their mates against their will. It's not a good time to be introducing the idea of open marriage .. infidelity is never a good place to start that off from.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

The thing is, this forum is targeted to what you jab as "vanilla" marriages. Those of you that jumble all the flavors in a blender and give it clever name have warped the idea of marriage into something else.

No thanks! My wife and I get all our flavors from one dish.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

morituri said:


> I watched Esther Perel's TED video "Rethinking Infidelity..." and there were a few things that caught my eye:
> 
> 1.
> 
> ...


* A simply great post, Mori!*


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## ScrambledEggs (Jan 14, 2014)

When I unpack all the hurt from my wife's affair, STD risk aside, the biggest issue is not who she rubbed her body against by a long shot. It was the willingness to lie, deceive, and use me. To expect, even demand, fidelity from me while she would gaslight her way to cold shoulders for me and hots for other men. 

She could have done anything with her freedom. Write a book, get an advanced degree, become a doctor, lead a charity, compete at a top level in something, but she choose to hang out, and assuage her boredom with affairs. 

Maybe mine is a different kind of betrayal. Trapping me, then going on the hunt while I am properly stabled is frankly just sick self centered narcism not some exploration of what it is to love and be loved in a long term relationship.


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## Welsh15 (Feb 24, 2014)

Leobwin said:


> Pin. Drop.
> 
> Esther Perel: Rethinking infidelity ... a talk for anyone who has ever loved | Talk Video | TED.com
> 
> Infidelity is the ultimate betrayal. But does it have to be? Relationship therapist Esther Perel examines why people cheat, and unpacks why affairs are so traumatic: because they threaten our emotional security. In infidelity, she sees something unexpected — an expression of longing and loss. A must-watch for anyone who has ever cheated or been cheated on, or who simply wants a new framework for understanding relationships.


I just read the transcript and I have to say that the thought process is mostly spot on from my perspective.

http://www.ted.com/talks/esther_per...as_ever_loved/transcript?language=en#t-856720


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## len51 (May 22, 2015)

staystrong said:


> Using the term vanilla is passing judgement using a different set of ethics. If by vanilla you mean only one flavor (one person, "routine" sex style), that "vanilla" may be Double F'in Fudge Rainbow with Sprinkles and Caramel Sauce with the right one person.
> 
> You're not really representing polyamory very well. Your comments make people think you're a sex snob, and for an old geezer you should known better. Enlightened polyamorists wouldn't judge others for being monogamous or uninitiated. The amor in that word is love/connection, or allowance of sexual liberty. How do you know what people have experimented with here and what they've chosen as their own calling or comfort level. Poly people don't "cheat"? Sure they do. Ground rules vary and the bond between the couple can vary over time. Some want to get out of the lifestyle while the other does not.
> 
> This is an infidelity board. People are vulnerable and being forced to share their mates against their will. It's not a good time to be introducing the idea of open marriage .. infidelity is never a good place to start that off from.


It may not be a good place to start that off from for most and yet it happens all the time when divorce is not desirable. Many will decide just to look the other way rather than divorce and not have a formal declaration, but it is going on whether spoken or not. It is still an option to divorce. I find it strange that some will destroy their marriage, put their kids through the divorce procedure and go through all the other stuff of a divorce and yet think opening a relationship is not an appropriate option to keep a family together. My wife slept with another guy and I slept with a few other women. The sky did not fall. My wife did not leave me. Life went on so all I am saying, is that there are options to a devastating divorce. Just that most have been raised with a certain set of ideas about sex and marriage that were one time evolutionary necessary but not so much now.

I am not trying to convert anyone, just giving my opinion and nobody needs to like it. My life experience is different than many people so my opinions are colored by my personal experience with my marriage and those of our friends, both traditional and non traditional. See, I did not use the word vanilla. Vanilla is not judgment, it is just a common term fetishist and those into alternative lifestyles use. You can find that term all over the internet as a simple way to say that people are not into sexual fetishes or alternative lifestyles but I cannot control what you think or are offended by and I will not try. I am what I am. My marriage worked. I had two women who both loved me to go home to. We did not feel that we had exclusive rights to anyone's sexuality or love. Not everyone's cup of tea and I have seen it fail more than succeed, but when it works, it is wonderful. You do not have to like it but at least respect my right to voice an opinion.

Remember that I was responding to the OP who was telling us what infidelity is according to him. I was not responding to a person going through infidelity. My comments were in response to the OP and I am not looking for an argument with others.

BTW, behind the veil of traditional responses to infidelity you may find some strange solution. There is a whole world out there that most do not come in contact with. One million male chastity devices are sold each year. I wear one myself and have for the last two years. Long story not connected with infidelity. I am active in Munches and groups of men wearing chastity devices and some wear them as an alternative to divorce. It gives their wives peace of mind knowing that their husbands cannot cheat, at least fully, anymore. The guys are not going to even want to be with another women out of embarrassment alone.

There are other options to divorce for those open to them. That is all I am saying. I am not trying to sell my lifestyle. We do not get a bonus for recruiting others.  Infidelity does not have to be seen as a moral issue or a reason for mandatory divorce although it is ingrained in us to do so. Of course it depends on circumstances but so many these days are having affairs, up to 40% of women and a little higher for men. There are thriving websites for married people to hook up for discrete no strings attached sex. If you lift the veil and look behind it, there is a world out their that most do not know exists since it is underground due to social stigmas that still exists. Whatever floats you boat is fine by me and I repeat, my post were aimed at the original poster who seems to be a mystery man/boy of unknown relationship status.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marduk,
It seems that if given a choice, most folks will pick someone who doesn't treat them well, but is sexually faithful, over someone who treats them great but breaches, even once. 

I've accepted that I will never understand that viewpoint. 

Don't get me wrong, I value fidelity but not higher than the day to day. 

And I can't really wrap my head around a spouse that flat out refuses to have sex with you. 







marduk said:


> I dunno.
> 
> I've read her "Mating in Captivity" book and it's really opened my eyes. As has listening to a few of Dan Savage's podcasts.
> 
> ...


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## Leobwin (Apr 28, 2012)

*Re: Re: Rethinking infidelity ... a talk for anyone who has ever loved*



Esther Perel said:


> Now, I like this definition of an affair -- it brings together the three key elements: a secretive relationship, which is the core structure of an affair;an emotional connection to one degree or another;and a sexual alchemy. And alchemy is the key word here, because the erotic frission is such that the kiss that you only imagine giving, can be as powerful and as enchanting as hours of actual lovemaking. As Marcel Proust said, it's our imagination that is responsible for love, not the other person.


Does anyone here still doubt the damaging power of an EA?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Leobwin said:


> Does anyone here still doubt the damaging power of an EA?


No way. I would certainly divorce over an EA.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

Leobwin said:


> Does anyone here still doubt the damaging power of an EA?


That was the hardest part of my H's EA/PA was the E part of it...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Blossom Leigh said:


> That was the hardest part of my H's EA/PA was the E part of it...


Sorry Blossom. I thought it was an EA only. Not taking anything away from it. It all sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

ScrambledEggs said:


> It was the willingness to lie, deceive, and use me. To expect, even demand, fidelity from me while she would gaslight her way to cold shoulders for me and hots for other men.


This. I don't care if someone is in an open or closed relationship. Bisexual, trisexual, into mannequins, whatever. That's your business. 

What pissed me off was my ex's expectation that I live up to my vows while she got to fvck whoever she wanted. She accomplished this through DECEIT.

She didn't want US to have an open relationship. SHE just wanted to have one. That's why cheater's are unequivocally selfish. They want the cake all to themselves.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Sorry Blossom. I thought it was an EA only. Not taking anything away from it. It all sucks.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, It was an EA for about two weeks, sexting, then they made out in her car during work hours for about an hour, but didn't consummate. And before anyone screams "cheater speak" I was tough as nails on him and he knows I would pull a poly in a heartbeat. I GRILLED him and he never wavered for over a year and he knows at any point in time if I doubt him I will ask for a poly or even leave him.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

In some ways, EAs are worse. Not that I'm trying to minimize PAs of course.

But with EAs, it's very easy for the one that did it to say "it was innocent because we didn't have sex!"

And it's very hard to pin down where the EA started... or stopped.


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

marduk said:


> In some ways, EAs are worse. Not that I'm trying to minimize PAs of course.
> 
> But with EAs, it's very easy for the one that did it to say "it was innocent because we didn't have sex!"
> 
> And it's very hard to pin down where the EA started... or stopped.


Agreed. It killed me knowing another woman had any part of my H's heart. That's the part I thought I wouldn't survive, until I realized.... her heart can't replace mine. Then a new day dawned in my world.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

marduk said:


> In some ways, EAs are worse. Not that I'm trying to minimize PAs of course.
> 
> But with EAs, it's very easy for the one that did it to say "it was innocent because we didn't have sex!"
> 
> And it's very hard to pin down where the EA started... or stopped.


* Always keep in mind that a cheaters deceit has already been fully exercised within the scope of an EA ~ the betrayal itself has already happened! You have been summarily relegated down to "Plan B" status!

They just haven't chosen to physically connect themselves ~ but, in reality, that's only a sheer blissful moment of weakness away! And you'll rarely ever know when that comes to happen, greatly keeping in mind that "sex is truly the currency of infidelity!"*


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Rookie4 said:


> this is just another bogus excuse for getting some strange. It's perfectly all right to do so , if both parties agree, but don't make it out as more than that......because it isn't. My ex wife said ....post affair...that it wasn't about the sex. * If it isn't about the sex....why have the sex? *
> I would be interested in what you consider"love" and what you consider "needs". Sounds to me...Geezer, like you are making it up, as you go. I would try calling a spade , a spade, and see how that goes.


It would be like dating a chef and not eating the food they cooked?


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## calmwinds (Dec 10, 2012)

I still haven't figured out why someone who heralds the polyamorous lifestyle is doing in CWI section.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

calmwinds said:


> I still haven't figured out why someone who heralds the polyamorous lifestyle is doing in CWI section.


My question, as well.

len51 condescendingly refers to people like myself as 'vanilla.' Yet, he talks about how peaceful and harmonious his own lifestyle choice was for his long marriage. He created his own vanilla, in my opinion. If his choices had been beset by painful betrayal, then perhaps he wouldn't be so defensive and patronizing.

(I actually think vanilla is delicious.)


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

alte Dame said:


> (I actually think vanilla is delicious.)


Yeah and you can add more good stuff to it than flavored ice cream, like Kahlua. :laugh:


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Blossom Leigh said:


> No, It was an EA for about two weeks, sexting, *then they made out in her car* during work hours *for about an hour*, but didn't consummate.


Given sufficient time and resources, there would probably have been PIV intercourse.

Just because there was no PIV intercourse, making out is a physical act in itself that turned his EA into an EA/PA.


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## oneMOreguy (Aug 22, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> My question, as well.
> 
> len51 condescendingly refers to people like myself as 'vanilla.' Yet, he talks about how peaceful and harmonious his own lifestyle choice was for his long marriage. He created his own vanilla, in my opinion. If his choices had been beset by painful betrayal, then perhaps he wouldn't be so defensive and patronizing.
> 
> (I actually think vanilla is delicious.)


"vanilla" is a term used quite commonly in the fetish community and by those participating in related online sites such as Fetlife............it is used to describe anyone not into fetishes. And it is not a term of endearment.......lol


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## Blossom Leigh (Mar 27, 2014)

morituri said:


> Given sufficient time and resources, there would probably have been PIV intercourse.
> 
> Just because there was no PIV intercourse, making out is a physical act in itself that turned his EA into an EA/PA.


Correct


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

oneMOreguy said:


> "vanilla" is a term used quite commonly in the fetish community and by those participating in related online sites such as Fetlife............it is used to describe anyone not into fetishes. And it is not a term of endearment.......lol


I know .


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

len51 said:


> It may not be a good place to start that off from for most and yet it happens all the time when divorce is not desirable. Many will decide just to look the other way rather than divorce and not have a formal declaration, but it is going on whether spoken or not. It is still an option to divorce. I find it strange that some will destroy their marriage, put their kids through the divorce procedure and go through all the other stuff of a divorce and yet think opening a relationship is not an appropriate option to keep a family together. My wife slept with another guy and I slept with a few other women. The sky did not fall. My wife did not leave me. Life went on so all I am saying, is that there are options to a devastating divorce. Just that most have been raised with a certain set of ideas about sex and marriage that were one time evolutionary necessary but not so much now.
> 
> I am not trying to convert anyone, just giving my opinion and nobody needs to like it. My life experience is different than many people so my opinions are colored by my personal experience with my marriage and those of our friends, both traditional and non traditional. See, I did not use the word vanilla. Vanilla is not judgment, it is just a common term fetishist and those into alternative lifestyles use. You can find that term all over the internet as a simple way to say that people are not into sexual fetishes or alternative lifestyles but I cannot control what you think or are offended by and I will not try. I am what I am. My marriage worked. I had two women who both loved me to go home to. We did not feel that we had exclusive rights to anyone's sexuality or love. Not everyone's cup of tea and I have seen it fail more than succeed, but when it works, it is wonderful. You do not have to like it but at least respect my right to voice an opinion.
> 
> ...


Dude, don't insult our intelligences. Just because a community uses that term in common trade doesn't mean it's not pejorative. 

I think it's a bit hilarious that you're calling the OP a "man/boy" (Total passive aggressive terminology) yet reserving sarcasm which could easily be used for men who need to wear chastity belts. Seriously, they can't control themselves? 1 million in sales? Maybe they could have a march. Be Proud to Not Allow!

Maybe some things are stigmatized because they suck. Cheater websites for example. Anonymous should redirect that to TAM's Coping With Infidelity or Divorce dot com. Please, mate, most of us do feel an exclusive right to our spouse's sexuality or love and would never degrade ourselves by considering an open relationship after the fact. If the trust has already been broken, who's to say more trust won't be broken in a polyamorous lifestyle? If it starts out through a mutual interest, okay, but otherwise ... not okay. Infidelity is complex, and it's not just about being forced to be monogamous as you would have us believe.


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## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

A very good talk, from her perspective. She makes some brief mention of the considerations that historically cautioned against infidelity and talks about contemporary dynamics and how we move past affairs and even improve from them. What she does not address in this discussion is staying through the insult and self-sacrifice, really even hating yourself, what has become of you for doing it and everything about, to offer a safe and stable home for children. I would be interested in her thoughts on that. With the family dynamic and children and sacrificing parents there is an element of reckless selfishness that is not addressed in this piece.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

len51 said:


> I can see that I am wasting my time with you. I do not have to justify my lifestyle. My wife is bisexual, is yours? Do you belong to any sex clubs or engage in very kinky fetishes? You live in a vanilla world where you pass moral judgment on everyone who does not live like you do.
> 
> I had to laugh when you said that we may be living our life wrong despite it working for us. My mother told me not to argue with people like you so this will be my last post on this. You can have the last word because you seem to need to defend how your life is right and mine is wrong. I am very different than you and until you are in my league I am not going to play ball with you. Have a nice vanilla life.


I share a full life with my one and only love my wife of 37 years This is something ( I ) could only do with her because she is who she is and I am who I am 

Our life is full and has clarity we lack nothing sexually Took us a long time to get there You call it vanilla I call it a life well lived and worth the effort and wait.

Indeed start your own thread Your ideology has no place here
You are in a league of your own for sure.

55


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## Toomanyemotions (Mar 11, 2015)

Wow. Thankyou for sharing. The last 10 mins of that really hit home. My H had an affair, but he left me for her and hasn't looked back. 

We experienced the tragic loss of our sister in law and 2 little nephews in car accident a couple of years ago. As much as I am fully aware of the issues that existed in our marriage before the affair, the questions she said the WS may ask themselves in the wake of loss rung true, and I know my H would have asked himself those questions.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

len51 said:


> My wife and I do not view sexual fidelity as the ultimate betrayal. It greatly depends if the married couple consider it as such. We have been married over 40 years and both of us have had sexual relations with others and even shared some. We know that you can love more than one person and also hold your marriage as the primary relationship whose needs come before any other.
> 
> Most are surprised that we never had an issue with our lifestyle. It worked for us and monogamy failed for all of our friends and family, so which is better or worse? I think it depends on the people involved and if they feel that a relationship with someone else takes away from the marriage or not. It can actually put new life into a stale marriage. I read so many posts about people stuck in marriages with spouses that do not meet their emotional or sexual needs. The result is often divorce because they have no other option that is not considered a betrayal.
> 
> ...


I commend you for your honesty. It's not a road I'd ever want to go down, just as monogamy may not be the road for you. So bear in mind that this observation is without judgment on your lifestyle:

What I found fascinating about this TED talk was a possibility I never even considered - that polyamorous couples ALSO cheat and hide their cheating. You'd think they wouldn't because you're able to sleep with multiple people and fulfill whatever emotional needs you have with multiple partners. But I guess this woman's experience has taught her that isn't the case.


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