# Advice and help needed. Where do I go? What do I do?



## phillipw1970

I have never been the most confident person and my wife of 8 years is so beautiful. I consider myself extremely lucky to be married to her. However, these last 4 years have become more and more difficult.
I will put my hands up and admit I have been an idiot at times. From telling white lies about not smoking and to lying about money. 
However, money has recently become the elephant in the room. When we first met I was working as support staff in a school and my earnings were very low. However, she did her teacher training and we lived in a box room for a year and we survived. My wife has since said that this was her happiest time. 
After her training and her getting a job we moved to a slightly bigger place and we decided to start a family. Within a couple of years we had our first son and we moved again to a house this time and we had our second son not long after.
In this time I also moved into teaching and I qualified and we moved into our current house. It's not the tidiest but it does the job.
In this time, she has become more and more material in her outlook. She insists we are struggling financially and bandies phrases like being poor and living in poverty around. As someone who has known poverty when I was a carer it annoys me she doesn't understand the true meanings of what she is saying. She says we don't have enough money for her to buy the clothes she wants or go on holiday. A 'nice' holiday with a beach. Every time she says this I feel under pressure (which she agrees she wants me to feel) and that I can't provide for the family. I feel that this is a criticism of me as a husband and it is designed to cut me to the quick as a man. Are we poor? I don't know. I don't think so. We have a 3 bedroomed house and 2 cars. We can't go out every night or buy a £60 coat without thinking about the cost but our boys are in a couple of clubs which of course cost money. Are we rich, no we are not but we don't starve either. 
My wife also says I am self-absorbed as I don't want to spend time with her and she is some of the time correct. After work I do want some wind down time just for me but I know that if I talk to her she will be asking me when am I getting promoted so we can have more money or something she feels I have done wrong.
I will admit that I do get defensive and protective and in arguments I am really stubborn. However, I have also apologised even when I felt she was in the wrong. I know this is rug sweeping and I am guilty of that.
I will also admit to bad judgement. I have gone and got really drunk which has upset my wife, so I don't go out any-more. I have lied on numerous occasions in an attempt to cover my bad judgement or my embarrassment. I have taken pay day loans and credit cards without her knowledge and tried to cover them up. I also know at this time I was in a spiral where I was addicted to debt and I am happy to say that over the last year I have not taken out a single pay-day loan, loan or credit card. My spending was over the top and this last year I have cut my cloth accordingly. 
However, a lot of our problems I feel pre-date this, and not to justify my actions my spending behaviour was reflecting the fiscal pressure my wife was putting on me.
She has made it very clear that if it was not for the children she would have left me by now. She is not happy, doesn't trust me, constantly tired, has no money, feels fat. She also has no respect for me and I feel belittle or trivialise any achievements I manage. For example, I was offered a very well paid job before my current one, overseas and her response was - 'well I expect they will take anyone they are so desperate.' When I have suggested I apply for a new job she has laughed at me and said I won't get it. 
With my wife right now it is all or nothing. When we are happy, whether its as a family or as a couple everything feels right, but when we have an argument it is back to I am going to leave you mode. We are in that place now, and to be honest I am not sure how we got there. 
She has wealthy friends and this is the yardstick she holds herself up to and she has become more jealous of her friends wealth over the years.
My position is difficult. I love her with all my heart and I don't want to lose her but I also feel she has changed. She says I have changed, or as she would say reverted back to who I was, and maybe I have I have done some soul searching and I probably have become more introverted then before but she has become jealous, consumed with avarice and petty in her outlook. Money is important to me but my world does not revolve around it but for my wife right now it all she thinks about.
Any advice would be great


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## NotLikeYou

Married Man Sex Life Primer.

No More Mr. Nice Guy.

The Dangerous Book for Boys.

Stop smoking. It wastes money, shortens your life span, and makes you smell bad (which in turn makes you unattractive).

Stop lying. Own your mistakes. You may be wrong, but you won't be penalized twice (once for being wrong and once again for lying about it).

Try to be a great Dad to your children.

Keep your spending under control. No loans, credit cards, or payday loans.

Remember when you were younger and had a hobby that you really enjoyed? Pick it up again. Become passionate about it. Build up your self confidence from the things you do right.

Stop putting your wife on a pedestal. She is way less than perfect. You seem like a mostly decent guy, and she doesn't sound like she appreciates you all that much. 

In fact, you seem like a Nice Guy, which can be a bad thing. So read that book above twice......

Stop being so hard on yourself. You have made some mistakes. Join the club. You don't hit your wife or kids. You are a loyal spouse. You got excessively drunk, and you realized it and stopped it cold. You are a decent provider, if not a uber-successful one. Most guys aren't uber-successful providers, they're decent ones, just like you.

You might not be destined for greatness, but you have some solid successes in your life.

So celebrate those and take satisfaction and CONFIDENCE in the things you have done right.

Respect your wife. Respect yourself. Require that your wife respect you, as you respect her (Married Man Sex Life.... read that one twice, too).

Now go forth and kick ass.


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## arbitrator

*Always remember that being poor, or even being wealthy is just a state of mind! While you should always strive to be economically solvent, more especially for the benefit of your family, it's preeminently what's in your heart that counts the most!

If she absolutely can't accept that, then she would be just as artificial had she married a billionaire!*


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## EleGirl

From what you say, your wife is very disrespectful of you. What she is doing is called emotional abuse.

Along with the books suggested above, I want you to think about something....

We teach people how they can treat us. You have taught your wife that it is ok disrespect you and be abusive. You can change this... that's what the books are about.

You can unilaterally change your marriage .. by changing yourself for the better. As you change your wife will have to change because her old antics will not work on you.

As you change, she might get upset with you because she is losing control (abuse is always about control). Expect her being upset but do not give into it.

You can change this. It's not 100% sure, but you have a good chance.


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## EleGirl

Oh, and get the book "Smart Couples Finish Rich". It does not matter how much you earn.. what matters is how you handle your money.

Another good book about money is "The Millionaire Next Door".

Most people who look rich are just living paycheck to paycheck blowing everything they have. They are payday away from being on the street. Competing with that is just nonsense.


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## tom67

NotLikeYou said:


> Married Man Sex Life Primer.
> 
> No More Mr. Nice Guy.
> 
> The Dangerous Book for Boys.
> 
> Stop smoking. It wastes money, shortens your life span, and makes you smell bad (which in turn makes you unattractive).
> 
> Stop lying. Own your mistakes. You may be wrong, but you won't be penalized twice (once for being wrong and once again for lying about it).
> 
> Try to be a great Dad to your children.
> 
> Keep your spending under control. No loans, credit cards, or payday loans.
> 
> Remember when you were younger and had a hobby that you really enjoyed? Pick it up again. Become passionate about it. Build up your self confidence from the things you do right.
> 
> Stop putting your wife on a pedestal. She is way less than perfect. You seem like a mostly decent guy, and she doesn't sound like she appreciates you all that much.
> 
> In fact, you seem like a Nice Guy, which can be a bad thing. So read that book above twice......
> 
> Stop being so hard on yourself. You have made some mistakes. Join the club. You don't hit your wife or kids. You are a loyal spouse. You got excessively drunk, and you realized it and stopped it cold. You are a decent provider, if not a uber-successful one. Most guys aren't uber-successful providers, they're decent ones, just like you.
> 
> You might not be destined for greatness, but you have some solid successes in your life.
> 
> So celebrate those and take satisfaction and CONFIDENCE in the things you have done right.
> 
> Respect your wife. Respect yourself. Require that your wife respect you, as you respect her (Married Man Sex Life.... read that one twice, too).
> 
> Now go forth and kick ass.


I'm inspired.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHciXv3BVXQ
:lol:
To the point.


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## aine

phillipw1970 said:


> I have never been the most confident person and my wife of 8 years is so beautiful. I consider myself extremely lucky to be married to her. However, these last 4 years have become more and more difficult.
> I will put my hands up and admit I have been an idiot at times. From telling white lies about not smoking and to lying about money.
> However, money has recently become the elephant in the room. When we first met I was working as support staff in a school and my earnings were very low. However, she did her teacher training and we lived in a box room for a year and we survived. My wife has since said that this was her happiest time.
> After her training and her getting a job we moved to a slightly bigger place and we decided to start a family. Within a couple of years we had our first son and we moved again to a house this time and we had our second son not long after.
> In this time I also moved into teaching and I qualified and we moved into our current house. It's not the tidiest but it does the job.
> In this time, she has become more and more material in her outlook. She insists we are struggling financially and bandies phrases like being poor and living in poverty around. As someone who has known poverty when I was a carer it annoys me she doesn't understand the true meanings of what she is saying. She says we don't have enough money for her to buy the clothes she wants or go on holiday. A 'nice' holiday with a beach. Every time she says this I feel under pressure (which she agrees she wants me to feel) and that I can't provide for the family. I feel that this is a criticism of me as a husband and it is designed to cut me to the quick as a man. Are we poor? I don't know. I don't think so. We have a 3 bedroomed house and 2 cars. We can't go out every night or buy a £60 coat without thinking about the cost but our boys are in a couple of clubs which of course cost money. Are we rich, no we are not but we don't starve either.
> My wife also says I am self-absorbed as I don't want to spend time with her and she is some of the time correct. After work I do want some wind down time just for me but I know that if I talk to her she will be asking me when am I getting promoted so we can have more money or something she feels I have done wrong.
> I will admit that I do get defensive and protective and in arguments I am really stubborn. However, I have also apologised even when I felt she was in the wrong. I know this is rug sweeping and I am guilty of that.
> I will also admit to bad judgement. I have gone and got really drunk which has upset my wife, so I don't go out any-more. I have lied on numerous occasions in an attempt to cover my bad judgement or my embarrassment. I have taken pay day loans and credit cards without her knowledge and tried to cover them up. I also know at this time I was in a spiral where I was addicted to debt and I am happy to say that over the last year I have not taken out a single pay-day loan, loan or credit card. My spending was over the top and this last year I have cut my cloth accordingly.
> However, a lot of our problems I feel pre-date this, and not to justify my actions my spending behaviour was reflecting the fiscal pressure my wife was putting on me.
> She has made it very clear that if it was not for the children she would have left me by now. She is not happy, doesn't trust me, constantly tired, has no money, feels fat. She also has no respect for me and I feel belittle or trivialise any achievements I manage. For example, I was offered a very well paid job before my current one, overseas and her response was - 'well I expect they will take anyone they are so desperate.' When I have suggested I apply for a new job she has laughed at me and said I won't get it.
> With my wife right now it is all or nothing. When we are happy, whether its as a family or as a couple everything feels right, but when we have an argument it is back to I am going to leave you mode. We are in that place now, and to be honest I am not sure how we got there.
> She has wealthy friends and this is the yardstick she holds herself up to and she has become more jealous of her friends wealth over the years.
> My position is difficult. I love her with all my heart and I don't want to lose her but I also feel she has changed. She says I have changed, or as she would say reverted back to who I was, and maybe I have I have done some soul searching and I probably have become more introverted then before but she has become jealous, consumed with avarice and petty in her outlook. Money is important to me but my world does not revolve around it but for my wife right now it all she thinks about.
> Any advice would be great


She seems to have little or no respect for you. We all believe that in marriage it should be unconditional love and acceptance but the reality is respect has to be earned. Start earning some by taking care of your smoking, handling of finances, your lying. If you show her that you are willing to change these things and be an honest and upright guy, she will work with you as a team. She is probably using those jibes to 'motivate' you (foolishly). Respect is very very important in the marriage. You don't have to be a multimillionaire but women want men to 'lead' them and their families. You need to do that.


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## phillipw1970

Thanks for the feedback.
Yesterday I offered an olive branch but she said she doesn't want to spend time with me. She doesn't believe my good behaviour will last so I am in a no man's land of where to go.
Anyway last night we had a talk and it was strange. When I tried to initiate a conversation I was accused of trying to have the conversation on my terms and she won't be dominated. We passed this problem. Which is a new one as I am usually accused of not initiating any conversation in the first place. I got a lot of if you don't know I'm not telling you at the start but I began to feel we were making progress that she feels I am mistreating her by my actions or inactions. Some of them are petty but some of them she did have a point and I apologised. She thanked me but said I would do it again anyway and that she was sleeping in the spare bedroom. Now, of course I was upset but I could see why so I grudgingly went along which seemed to upset her more than if I argued the point. 
I got back from work today and she said a friend had offered our boys to have a sleepover but she thought to say no as we are not going to have a nice time together anyway and when I said if that's what she wants her reaction was I obviously had given the wrong answer. I suppose I could have handled it better but I still felt upset with her telling me she didn't want to spend time with me and I feel guilty about throwing it back in her face.
Right now I feel everything is a test with her. She wants to trip me up. She has in her head what she wants to hear but I am confused about what to say. I immediately am indecisive and insecure about what to say to her.
I have taken ownership of my past deeds and btw I haven't had a cigarette for 3 weeks. 
My behaviour in the past has been bad but I am improving.
I suppose I am writing here tonight because I need to sound off. For the first time in my marriage I am on the verge of giving up. I feel my past behaviour has done too much damage and I have burnt too many bridges in my marriage that despite how much we love each or how much I have changed she will never trust me, respect me or relax with me ever again.
Perhaps it's all too late and I am a fool to keep fighting and accept the inevitable because we can't live like this.


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## SurpriseMyself

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NotLikeYou

You want some more? YOU WANT SOME MORE OF THIS (advice)?

Well, FINE!

Stop offering olive branches and trying to "talk about us."

Stop apologizing.

You know, you came here and asked for advice.

You received a reading list of 5 or 6 books, between Elegirl and I.

You got multiple suggestions on changing stuff up for the better.


What did you do with this bounteous feast?

"Thanks for the feedback."

"Now, let me tell everyone how I didn't actually USE any of the advice I got. And also, I'll go into detail about how I just did more of the same weak behaviors that got me into my predicament, and made me slightly less attractive to my wife!"



Right now, you feel like everything is a test with her (your wife).

That is REALLY AMAZING! Because the Married Man Sex Life Primer goes into excruciating details about a wifely behavior known as, I kid you not, THE SH!T TEST.

See, if you were to go and read the book, you would have some understanding of what's happening to you.

Instead, you're being weak, and "trying to have a conversation," and your wife is cringing because she wants a husband with testicular fortitude, and she ain't got one!

STOP TALKING ABOUT IT!

Go read those books and expand your knowledge, and THEN, in light of your newfound wisdom, examine your options and MAKE A PLAN.


Damn, now I feel spent. I may continue to wander the emotional wastelands of TAM, but I am (temporarily) empty of any useful advice.

Maybe I can find a troll posting to spew snark and venom all over.

God, what an exciting Friday night I have lined up.......


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## phillipw1970

Nothing like a bit of personal abuse to start the day.

I appreciate all the advice but as was pointed out the crux of the problem is the lack of respect.

After talking on Friday I understand now her feelings of anger, resentment, unhappiness and bitterness. The problem is not money, or the house or any other issues. These are minor problems which come down to one major cause.

It boils down to my behaviour in the past has led to her losing her respect towards me and she has lack of belief in me as a person. More importantly it has led to her lack of trust towards me where she feels she has to control me and the situation because I have let her down and betrayed her in the past, which has led to the vicious cycle we are in. 

This of course means she feels as if she now finds it hard to let go. She is scared that if she relaxes and let me in again I will betray her again and hurt her again.

So everything over the last 2 years has been more the symptoms of her lack of trust in me and the cause is my lying and deceit. 

When I went to Debtors Anonymous last year it was said the first step is accepting you have a problem. My wife admits she has a problem trusting me and I admit I had a problem with my honesty.

The biggest problem is the next step. We have to try and wipe the slate clean and move on from the past but there may be too much baggage

When she trusted me there were none of these issues and I had more control in our household, and I was more of the traditional husband she wanted.

I am relieved that we have found the cause and we need to work on rebuilding the trust. However, it's not down to me and she has to make the decision to trust me again.


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## anchorwatch

Hello, Phillip

You are right, It is the lack of respect. Those recommended books address why you don't respect yourself enough for her to respect you. 

I agree, stop chasing her. Stop looking to her for signs of approval. Right now you need to work on you. You are the person responsible for your actions, and you are the person accountable for them. This means you are the person that needs to approve of your changes. 

You may or may not be able to save things, but you will have corrected your course from here on out. Set your goals, Work towards them. It took time for you to get in this hole. It will take time to get out 

Good for joining DA. 

Learn why you feel the need to lie. 

Learn to lead.

Money is a problem? Then you can start reading here without spending. 

No More Mr Nice Guy

The Way of the Superior Man

Best


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## NotLikeYou

Ahem.

I could do much better, were it my intent to abuse you. I'd start off by calling you a man-hoe and go from there.

Phillip, you've figured out that you have a problem, and you've actually dug down and found exactly what the problem is (lack of respect).

Lots of guys stop well short of where you're at, so pat yourself on the back.

The problem is that you were still stumbling around and needed (IMHO) a firm verbal slap.

The biggest problem is indeed the next step, figuring out in detail how to become a star in her eyes again.

Seriously, read some of those books. They will give you perspective and structure to make (better) informed decisions that you would otherwise.

And you ended your followup post with a mistake.

It COMPLETELY IS DOWN TO YOU. To be the man you want to be and need to be, it's all on you and it is "outcome independent."

Whether your wife chooses to start trusting you again, or later, or not at all, just doesn't matter.

What matters is you becoming the most awesome version of phillipw1970 that you can achieve.

If you can get there, your wife will probably decide to trust you again, somewhere along the way. And if she wants to hold a grudge and not-trust you, well, by the time you're there, her trusting you may not be that important after all, because you will ooze self confidence and trust YOURSELF.

The reason I keep throwing different versions of "stop talking to her" around is because chicks dig strong, silent types. Interestingly, they also dig loud, confident types. Sensitive, "let's talk about our feelings" type of guys, not so much.

Don't be one of those guys.

Now keep making good decisions and go be the baddest-ass-ed phillipw1970 that you can be!


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## turnera

Philip, the first thing you have to do is check her phone/email/text/computer activity to make sure she's not cheating. She's exhibiting a LOT of red flags that indicate she's met another man.

If you find nothing, then you need to understand about women. Who have to be able to depend on their men to protect them -financially, safety-wise, mentally. Read the book No More Mr Nice Guy before you do anything else, to understand.


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## phillipw1970

Hmmm....
Y'know I thought we had began to make progress but these last few days have been strange. She has seen preoccupied, distracted and she won't look me in the eye when I speak to her. She has also been very quiet and has refused to kiss me. In bed she allows cuddling but only in specific areas, I have had my hand pushed away a few times in the last few nights. There has been little or no interest in sex but I put this down to lack of respect and trust issues between us as well as her poor body image she has.
I can't find any proof she is playing away but when I asked her today what her problem is she asked first if I had been talking to her best friend about it, which I hadn't and I am thinking about doing now to be honest. After speaking to another of her friends about her and my concerns I got the distinct impression I was being lied to. All I get from her is there are a lot of things bugging her. 
Maybe she is depressed or has low self esteem or maybe I am just lying to myself.
Thoughts?


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## turnera

You haven't found anything...

So you have all her phone records for the last 2 years and you know all the phone numbers used? There's not one number that she contacts 5-100 times a day?

You put a VAR under the seat of her car to see what she talks about and who she talks to when she's not around you?

You've randomly followed her when she goes out without you to see who she's meeting up with?

She doesn't have her phone glued to her hand 24/7 with a password she won't give you?


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## phillipw1970

Well this was to be expected and we have a problem. I am getting confused signals. She has admitted that she wants me to take more control but when I try to take it she refuses to relinquish control with reasons being rehashed in different forms of 'my way is the best way'. She wants me to stand up to her and be more of a man which I have been recently and I am now being accused of being unreasonable and stubborn and when I have compromised in the past I have been accused of having no backbone and not understanding or valuing the relationship. 
I am well aware I have been suffering from Nice Guy syndrome and trying to please her but right now when I become more assertive she says she doesn't understand me anymore. 
She suggested last night that she goes back to Russia and look after her father. I said last night I couldn't support that decsion but she said I couldn't physically stop her. She accused me today of being stubborn again but I said it wouldn't work and it would mean the end of the relationship. However, I don't think she was serious in her suggestion. I told her today she is intolerant about me and my behaviour raking up the past when she can and a lot of her comments are designed to trap me or catch me out because if I don't say or act in the way she expects me to say she gets upset. Her favourite phrase is 'I have this vision in my head of what I expect to happen......' If I don't meet that expectation I hear about it. I believe this was a test to see if I am serious about us. She has constantly said she is not right for me, she is too demanding and I should find someone else. Again this is another test to see how I react. This constant second guessing of her intentions has led me more down the nice guy route and I have vowed to stop doing this. 
She says she doesn't know if she will ever trust me enough to relinquish control and she won't respect or trust me again until I have more control and become the man of the house again. A truly vicious circle.


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## EleGirl

It sounds like you do something that you consider 'manning up'. But then you look to her for approval.

There is a fine line between setting your own boundaries and being controlling.

You have stated your boundary about her going to Russia to care for her father. It's not up for negotiation. So stop looking at her to accept your boundary. 

She has stated back that you cannot control her. The right answer to that is to not discuss it with her. Just tell her that no you are not trying to control her. You are telling her your boundary. She can choose to live with it or not.

She is right, you cannot stop her. If she goes, then you need to end the relationship because you said you will.

How long does she want to spend in Russia caring for her father? Is there no one in Russia who can help him?


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## phillipw1970

It's not a question of seeking approval. She says she wants less control while still maintaining it. When I have tried to take control of situations she has refused to let go. While in the past I may have seeked approval due to trying to please her this is me moving towards the situation she wants with me playing a more traditional role instead of her in control. 
She has said she can't lossen her control because she doesn't trust me to do it to her standards or agree with my decsions. 
I can't force her to let go beyond leaving her so maybe I need to enforce these boundaries in a more clear fashion.
We were planning on bringing him over and I think that is still the case as I feel that she is testing me and my response to her suggestion.


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## turnera

Did you read No More Mr Nice Guy?


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## phillipw1970

I am well aware that I have been suffering from Nice Guy syndrome for most of my life that allowed me to become more submissive and it is my fault we are now in this situation but I am getting resistance to me becoming more assertive with her. If, as she says she can't relax her control because she doesn't trust me I am faced with a difficult decision. She refuses to move on emotionally and physically and resents being in charge but is refusing to let go. Maybe the damage done is irreparable.


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## turnera

phillipw1970 said:


> I am well aware that I have been suffering from Nice Guy syndrome for most of my life that allowed me to become more submissive and it is my fault we are now in this situation but I am getting resistance to me becoming more assertive with her.


So?

That's the whole POINT of no longer being a Nice Guy. _Former _Nice Guys would see that resistance and say so what? I'm becoming assertive because it's necessary and I'm a leader and I'm doing what's right; if she doesn't like it, that's HER problem. I'm still gonna do it.

PS: You becoming assertive DOES NOT REQUIRE her permission.


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## phillipw1970

You are of course right. I need to think of myself as I have met nearly all of the criteria of a nice guy. 
I need to stop seeking acceptance from her in my actions. I also need to stop caretaking and trying to fix her problems. Today for example she wanted to know of she should go back to see the doctor with her chest infection and I said what do you want to do and she looked surprised by my response. I told her last night I can't fix her problems I have offered suggestions which she said no to so I said that's up to you. I can't control her, only myself. She says she can't trust me or let go of her control and I said I can't control how she feels only my actions. She says she wants to trust me again but I am not going to seek her approval anymore. Today was a revelation to me. I have spent my relationship telling lies and I realized today why? What's the worst that could happen and whatever the consequences I can handle it. I don't need permission to put my needs first or stop being a caretaker. There will be resistance to my behaviour but as it was so well put so what stop trying to gain approval and be a man.


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## NotLikeYou

So you haven't read any of the books.

You just figure that you've probably been a nice guy all your life, but by golly, you're going to change that, even though you don't really know many details.

In the mean time, the wife doesn't care for your touch, wants to travel to the other side of the planet for an unspecified amount of time, and is probably emotionally attached to some guy back in Russia.

Her best friend knows what's going on, but seeking the truth is beyond you.

But you can keep talking and talking and talking.

Oh, and setting boundaries. Well, okay, talking about setting boundaries, anyway. they're not real boundaries- you just say they are.

You should actually pay attention to what your wife is saying and doing. If you realized how much she holds you in contempt, maybe you would be motivated to seek real change in yourself.


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## phillipw1970

Well I have been assertive again and she doesn't understand me. She wants to maintain control but suddenly talks about compromise when I insist that if I say my views take precedence. She says she is not sure if she can still live with me if I hold onto this point of view and brings up rather desperate scenarios of me going off to the pub. She says she will have to reconsider our living arrangements or the implied course is divorce but I will stick to my guns because I can live with it.


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## turnera

So she threatens you if you don't cave. Call her bluff.

And read the damn books! They aren't very complicated, they're easy reads, and you will learn a LOT. Stuff you need to know.


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## phillipw1970

I have read the books. The problem is that while I still love her she still wants to control me.


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## phillipw1970

I know so what?


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## turnera

phillipw1970 said:


> I have read the books. The problem is that while I still love her she still wants to control me.


Bullsh*t.

You haven't read the books. Anyone who knows what's in the books KNOWS you haven't read the books because you wouldn't still be talking like this.

Come back after you read them.


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## phillipw1970

I have read no more Mr Nice Guy which was very revealing about my behaviour and the reasons behind my actions. It has meant I am now more aware of my thoughts and my new mantras are I don't care what other people think, I will not hide my mistakes and I can handle anything that comes up. 
My desire to seek approval for my actions is still there but I will change my thought patterns. I will call her bluff and whatever happens I will deal with it.


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## phillipw1970

Well this is interesting. I am now getting the cold shoulder as she says she can't be in a relationship where I am making any of the decisions. She now is talking about how compromising is important, and how it is joint relationship. She is right but the problem is that I have allowed her to take charge by default by being passive, so there is no joint decsions being made. My first instinct is to agree and start talking about compromise but I think that is my Nice Guy persona asserting itself and attempting to please her, and I will go back to the passive self again. I have made it clear I will be voicing my opinions more loudly and I am no longer coming along for the ride. It isn't really about compromise it is about me being for more vocal and assertive in my views. She is sceptical and believes that my Nice Guy personality is what I am. She is right in the sense it was who I am up till now. I will maintain the boundaries I have started to set for myself.


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## phillipw1970

She is very sullen today and told me using No More Nice Guy as my bible will destroy the relationship not save it. I have performed a 180 turnaround from having no backbone to standing up to her. There is anger and confusion at my new behaviour but I am not doing this for her I am doing it for me. I have told her my aim in life is not to please her or beg for her acceptance. If she adjusts that's fine but if she doesn't I won't lose sleep over it or try to gain validation from her. I haven't initiated any conversations about my feelings I told her what I was doing and she has to adjust to me rather than me flapping around her trying to please her. It didn't go down well and I am getting the silent treatment. I decided to take the boys out but she got out some work so I asked if she wanted to come as well and she said she will probably stay at home. OK I said I am not going to beg you to come from this I am apparently thinking she didn't want her to join us. I pointed that at no point did I say that and not puts words in my mouth. I asked if she wanted to come, she said no in the past I would have tried to get her to join us. She is confused by my asserting myself but that isn't going to change.


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## aine

phillipw1970 said:


> She is very sullen today and told me using No More Nice Guy as my bible will destroy the relationship not save it. I have performed a 180 turnaround from having no backbone to standing up to her. There is anger and confusion at my new behaviour but I am not doing this for her I am doing it for me. I have told her my aim in life is not to please her or beg for her acceptance. If she adjusts that's fine but if she doesn't I won't lose sleep over it or try to gain validation from her. I haven't initiated any conversations about my feelings I told her what I was doing and she has to adjust to me rather than me flapping around her trying to please her. It didn't go down well and I am getting the silent treatment. I decided to take the boys out but she got out some work so I asked if she wanted to come as well and she said she will probably stay at home. OK I said I am not going to beg you to come from this I am apparently thinking she didn't want her to join us. I pointed that at no point did I say that and not puts words in my mouth. I asked if she wanted to come, she said no in the past I would have tried to get her to join us. She is confused by my asserting myself but that isn't going to change.


I think the point of the 180 is that you do not share your approach with her at all or explain your actions. Treat her with respect though but do not tell her what you are doing, or that you are not going to beg her, or compare and contrast your prior self etc. Just do it without explanation.


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## naiveonedave

phillipw1970 said:


> She is very sullen today and told me using No More Nice Guy as my bible will destroy the relationship not save it. I have performed a 180 turnaround from having no backbone to standing up to her. There is anger and confusion at my new behaviour but I am not doing this for her I am doing it for me. I have told her my aim in life is not to please her or beg for her acceptance. If she adjusts that's fine but if she doesn't I won't lose sleep over it or try to gain validation from her. I haven't initiated any conversations about my feelings I told her what I was doing and she has to adjust to me rather than me flapping around her trying to please her. It didn't go down well and I am getting the silent treatment. I decided to take the boys out but she got out some work so I asked if she wanted to come as well and she said she will probably stay at home. OK I said I am not going to beg you to come from this I am apparently thinking she didn't want her to join us. I pointed that at no point did I say that and not puts words in my mouth. I asked if she wanted to come, she said no in the past I would have tried to get her to join us. She is confused by my asserting myself but that isn't going to change.


you don't want your W to know you are reading MMSLP or NMMNG. They object to it, thinking you are trying to be manipulative, when in fact, you are trying to improve yourself.


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## phillipw1970

I have been accused of being selfish and destroying our relationship. I am being too macho for her liking. I am not being the person she married. Does she want the weak willed passive husband back? No she says but she doesn't but she doesn't want this strong assertive husband I have become either. She also says I am being disrespectful but she can't give any examples for me to see. I am polite and I speak up more. My language is less passive and I am becoming more decisive but she doesn't believe this is who I am. It seems to me she is trying to deny permission for my new behaviour which if course she can't as I am in charge of myself now. She is making it clear that it would mean her leaving me if I continue on this behaviour but I am not seeking her approval any more for my actions and I have stopped wringing my hands and chasing after her.


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## Tron

Phillip. Kudo's to you.

It's now time to order and read Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay. It isn't a sex book.

And for goodness sake don't tell her your reading it or what it's all about, or what you are going to do in the future because you read it...just do it. She will catch up...and if she follows the pattern, respect you for it.


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## turnera

Good work. Now reel it in just a bit, ok? Continue to ask her what she wants, if she wants to join you, etc. If she says no, say fine, we'll be back in a bit. Keep up the communication, do NOT be mean about it, stay loving, but do not back down if she pushes you. Do try to compromise - you should both be getting what you want, somewhat. Continue to show her that you love her and want her, ok? She's scared right now that you've had some sort of brain transfusion, so she needs to still see the old you, but just not the you that gives in just to keep the peace.


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## phillipw1970

That is more or less what she told me tonight. She is scared, I know and I will tone it down a bit but it will be difficult to find a balancing act. When I look into her eyes I see confusion and anger about my behaviour and she says she does want be to be more assertive but not be nasty to her. I don't think I have been nasty but perhaps she is not used to me being so forthright in the conversation. She wants to trust me and respect me again but I will not go looking for the validation or endorsement as I am starting to respect myself again. I have to be strong as well as we were talking today I could feel the nice guy persona trying to vaccilate and give in to her. If I do that it will show her I can't even stick to my own boundaries and give into her again. Of course I want to compromise but in the past I have just rolled over and let her take charge but now I need to find and use my voice more clearly and I want to be heard. I am still the same caring person and I love her deeply but she has said on a number of occasions I am scared of her. I think she is partly right the fear is of not getting it right, being found out in my mistakes and trying to keep her placated through my misguided desire to keep her happy and fix her problems. The fear is not there anymore and the reason to lie has gone. I care what she thinks of me, but now it is not my reason for being. I am starting to feel comfortable in myself and I know now I overcompensated and went to the other extreme. We make mistakes and if anything I have learnt is that I made a mistake and she is still with me and willing to try and work together on this so I don't have to lie or try to put myself in the best light.


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## turnera

If you're having an important conversation, you might want to try using a talking stick. Whoever holds the stick gets to talk, you just keep handing it back and forth, respectfully, until you both get to say what you want.


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## aine

phillipw1970 said:


> I have been accused of being selfish and destroying our relationship. I am being too macho for her liking. I am not being the person she married. Does she want the weak willed passive husband back? No she says but she doesn't but she doesn't want this strong assertive husband I have become either. She also says I am being disrespectful but she can't give any examples for me to see. I am polite and I speak up more. My language is less passive and I am becoming more decisive but she doesn't believe this is who I am. It seems to me she is trying to deny permission for my new behaviour which if course she can't as I am in charge of myself now. She is making it clear that it would mean her leaving me if I continue on this behaviour but I am not seeking her approval any more for my actions and I have stopped wringing my hands and chasing after her.


Keep doing what you are doing, if you are passive she doesnt like it, if you are more assertive she doesn't like it. Her loss!


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## nuclearnightmare

OP:

I have a somewhat different take on all this. 
where I agree with everyone is on the importance of you developing better skills of self control and assertiveness. keep reading and practicing. if its an option for you counseling or therapy can often help a person understand why they act or feel the way they do; better understanding then leads to a clearer path to change.

here's where I disagree with many posters on the thread - DO NOT try to save your marriage! The more you describe your wife the more toxic she sounds. By "toxic" I mean the kind of person that no one should marry. essentially a person that is, as many of us use the phrase, NOT MARRIAGE MATERIAL. Incapable of being a loving wife to any man....and that broad category includes you, of course. 

I'm not going to go so far as to say she has a genuine personality disorder. she sounds like she might qualify though. Emotionally abusive, extreme use of manipulation, high degrees of blameshifting, high degree of status consciousness.....
sounds like a case of Narcisistic Personality Disorder, or a 'personality style' that closely approaches it.

get rid of her. Her going back to Russia (alone..make sure she does not take any of your children with her for God's sake) could be one of the best things that has happened to you in long time. Your goal should be that she goes back a divorced woman


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## phillipw1970

But of an update. Not much progress I'm afraid. She wants me to earn more money but doesn't think I will. She wants me to be more assertive but doesn't think it will last or in my nature. My future plans are unrealistic and she can't wait that long. I essentially told her she has to accept where we are or change it herself, I can't fix her problems. She said would I support her whatever decision she makes, another baited question, and I said if she is unhappy with me she needs to find a way to be happy. She says she can't right now. I told we are bouncing at the bottom and the whole situation is untenable and I won't allow it to last forever.


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## phillipw1970

I am getting seriously tired of chasing her now. She is sending me mixed signals again. She can't sleep because I try to cuddle and when I moved away she pulls my arm towards her for cuddling. I avoided physical contact with her last night and she still can't sleep. I haven't initiated anything physical as I have decided no sex is better than bad sex or corpse sex. My chasing her is yet another example of me seeking her approval. I have decided not to initiate anything now, be polite and respectful and she has to make her choice.


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## turnera

Have you read Married Man Sex Life Primer yet?


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## phillipw1970

Still reading the way of the superior man. Spoke politely this morning but got silent treatment again. Not going to chase her though.


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## phillipw1970

Just about ready to give up tbh. She days she can't trust me, forgive me or respect me. Seems more concerned about how other people will react or how she will cope. I have said the atmosphere is too toxic, she has to be happy in herself and not worry about what her friends think or contact with kids. She has to decide if she can be happy with me and I can't make the decision for her. We will sleep separately but after this I have had her niggling at me all evening. If this not resolved either way soon I will make the decision for her and start divorce proceedings. I am not going to beg for her to stay she has to want to stay but I think she has already decided but hasn't got the courage to tell me.


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## anchorwatch

Good, don't chase her. 

She doesn't trust you. She doesn't know these new behaviors. She is experiencing confusion and fear. During this period, when you pursue she distances... So don't.


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## phillipw1970

I have detached myself from the relationship. I am polite and respectful but we don't talk apart from the day to day stuff. I won't allow the situation to last for long though as I have my own life to think about as well. I won't push or persue her but if as I suspect she will say she can't be happy with me I have to start moving on.


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## turnera

phillipw1970 said:


> I have detached myself from the relationship. I am polite and respectful but we don't talk apart from the day to day stuff. I won't allow the situation to last for long though as I have my own life to think about as well. I won't push or persue her but if as I suspect she will say she can't be happy with me I have to start moving on.


I'm glad you're not hanging on to her every word, but it seems like you've just moved over to the complete opposite of the spectrum. Are you showing her that you want her to stay? Are you communicating? Or are you just sitting in opposite corners waiting for the other one to cry uncle?


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## phillipw1970

She knows I want us to stay together but I am not going to chase her. I have said she can have all the time and space to make her decision but I am reluctant to show or express any signs of affection as firstly she won't buy it, secondly she will say I am putting pressure on her and thirdly I feel unable to commit myself emotionally if she is going to say she wants to leave. I have not asked about her decision and I won't. She has to tell me and have the courage to tell me what she wants in the relationship. I am not going to seek her approval or follow like a little puppy anymore.


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## phillipw1970

It may be my imagination but there seems to have been a softening in her approach and attitude to me this morning. Much less hostile. We shall see.


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## Chaparral

The first book you should have read is mmslp. That's the book that explains her actions.


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## nuclearnightmare

phillipw1970 said:


> It may be my imagination but there seems to have been a softening in her approach and attitude to me this morning. Much less hostile. We shall see.



her manipulatations take a number of forms, I'm sure. if good marriages were based on manipulation, you'd have a great one. but they are based on love, which is where I think she falls off the chart - in the wrong direction


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## phillipw1970

Back to square one really. All I am getting is that is a tough decision which she hasn't made yet. She denies it but I feel like I am being stringed along and being played for a fool either that or she has made her decision and she hasn't got the courage to tell me. I have to admit either way it is a dangerous game to play as I am beginning to feel emotionally disengaged from her and ambiguity towards her is setting in and her pushing me away will probably mean that she is pushing me out of the marriage. I never could imagine life without her but her enforced isolation from me is making me think that perhaps there is a life out there without her. Maybe that is what she wants me to do and end the relationship than she doesn't have to take responsibility for her cowardice or the blame for ending the marriage.


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## turnera

You should tell her that.


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## phillipw1970

I told her last night I thought she was stringing me along which was denied. She knows from previous conversations that if she decides to end it, it is for keeps. I have made it clear that if she wants to end it it would be permanent. She initially had some strange idea of friends with benefits which I squashed straight away. I have also made it clear that while I am patient it is not limitless but she says she doesn't want to make a mistake. It also seems to me that she is finding a reason to stay rather than leaving. She can't or won't answer my questions about being together all I get is stalling from her.


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## phillipw1970

I feel that we are drifting into divorce right now. I have told her she has to want to be with me for who I am not who she expects me to be. She has said she can see no hope for the future and while she loves me and wants to be with me she can't physically connect with me as there is bitterness and resentment towards me. She has been surprised by my recent proactive and assertive behaviour and says she likes it as she wants to take a back seat in the relationship. However she does not believe I can sustain it and it won't last. I have said that my new mind set is not about her but about me but she is still sceptical. I have told her she is endangering the marriage by detaching herself from us and her pushing me away is dangerous. But I have also said I will not passively allow her to feel comfortable in removing herself from the marriage and I will be questioning all the time. I will not go back to before whatever she chooses I am a changed man. I feel we are going around in circles. I have repeatedly told her I can't fix or resolve her feelings but her indecision is making me impatient. Perhaps because I am so more proactive I am finding it difficult. You know I look at her and my love for her is as intense as it has always been but maybe my actions has scarred her so much that whatever I do will never be enough. Maybe I have to accept she will never be able to square the circle and be happy with me. I don't want to lose her but maybe I have to start preparing myself for the fact the damage can't be repaired no matter how much I have changed and accept the situation. I have said I will fight for her but maybe I am fighting a lost cause.


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## turnera

You need to learn patience. Women don't change overnight. And women don't trust overnight. You need to be changing because you need to be changing and stop worrying if it's 'working.'

You aren't doing this to make it 'work' with her. You're doing it because YOU need to be a better, stronger, more confident person in ALL your life.

That's the Nice Guy in you, assuming that if you just do this or that 'trick' she'll jump your bones again. And as long as you approach all this with that covert contract in your head...you WILL fail.

Your mindset at this moment should be "I'm really glad I learned about all this stuff because now I'm turning my life around and no matter where I end up with or who I end up with, I now know my life's going to be fabulous."


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## anchorwatch

I agree with T, Phillip. 

You'll need to practice patience as you work towards your new goals.


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## NotLikeYou

phillipw1970 said:


> I feel that we are drifting into divorce right now. I have told her she has to want to be with me for who I am not who she expects me to be. She has said she can see no hope for the future and while she loves me and wants to be with me she can't physically connect with me as there is bitterness and resentment towards me. She has been surprised by my recent proactive and assertive behaviour and says she likes it as she wants to take a back seat in the relationship. However she does not believe I can sustain it and it won't last. I have said that my new mind set is not about her but about me but she is still sceptical. I have told her she is endangering the marriage by detaching herself from us and her pushing me away is dangerous. But I have also said I will not passively allow her to feel comfortable in removing herself from the marriage and I will be questioning all the time. I will not go back to before whatever she chooses I am a changed man. I feel we are going around in circles. I have repeatedly told her I can't fix or resolve her feelings but her indecision is making me impatient. Perhaps because I am so more proactive I am finding it difficult. You know I look at her and my love for her is as intense as it has always been but maybe my actions has scarred her so much that whatever I do will never be enough. Maybe I have to accept she will never be able to square the circle and be happy with me. I don't want to lose her but maybe I have to start preparing myself for the fact the damage can't be repaired no matter how much I have changed and accept the situation. I have said I will fight for her but maybe I am fighting a lost cause.


So after all the progress you've made, you're still talking and talking and talking. 

In relationships where one partner is a "nice guy," the technical term for this is "NOT PROGRESS."

You're supposed to be working on being more assertive, decisive, and charting your own course independent of what she thinks.

Let's examine how that"s going, using your most recent post!

"She has to want to be with me."
"She has said" "she can see no hope for the future"
"she loves me" "She can't physically connect with me"
"She has been surprised" "She wants to take a back seat in the relationship" "She does not believe I can"

"She this" "She that" "She it am I obsessed with her"

phillip, man, I'm really not trying to be mean here. I don't know you in real life, so it's not like I have strong feelings one way or the other.

But you are floundering here. You don't have a plan. You pretend you're putting in real effort, but you're not. You're not really changing anything meaningful, and you're bouncing around like a rubber ball because TODAY she looked at you cross-eyed so thatmustmeanwe'reheadingfordivorceunlessshelooksatmecrosseyedtomorrowalso..........

Let's try this. Come Sunday evening, tell us how you went out and did something new and different. Or how you picked up an old hobby and spent some time engaging in THAT. Tell us about a new restaurant you ate at.

Change, meaningful change on a personal level, is not announcing "honey, I'm going to be more assertive.

If that's okay with you, I mean."

Chicks dig strong, silent guys. They like to "wonder what he's thinking." It's really hard for your wife to do that, since you're always telling her what you're thinking.

That's why you are where you are at. It's a big part of you, which is why you can't see it clearly, and haven't changed it one little bit. I would posit that it is the single most destructive behavior in your marriage.

Go read what Turnera wrote a few times. You're still doing covert contracts, which you'd know about if you had read NMMNG. Yes, I know you said you read it. Read it again. It didn't take the first time.


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## phillipw1970

You don't have to wait until Sunday. I have already signed up with my local athletic club as I used to do shot put at school so I am getting back into that. I am trying out with my local Cricket club today and I love Politics and was very active in my 20's so I have joined my local party and I have volunteered to campaign during the General Election here. The difference in me is that I am not trying to fix or resolve her problems or say what she wants to hear. I haven't consulted her about what I am doing I have just told her. I can't fix her feelings and my talking is for me different. This is not me hanging on her every word trying to solve everything and make her happy she has to decide what she wants I have already decided. Also in the past I have passively and hid away hoping it will all blow over and I can't do anymore but her decision is not what I need for her validation or my reassurance but I need to know if there is no future so I can move on and get on with my life. This is what is fuelling my impatience. The change in me is enormous and will remain whatever happens.


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## phillipw1970

She blew up at me this morning saying I am ruining everything by being too macho.
Not particularly bothered by it is just an update.


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## phillipw1970

Now she is unhappy with how I stand up to her and she thinks I am not doing it sensibly. This is an obvious attempt to control the situation and seek her implied permission for my behaviour which I am not giving her. Played cricket for the first time in 30 years and I played like someone who has not played for 30 years. I will sign up though I enjoyed it.


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## turnera

Good job. Make sure you're not being an a$$hole, though, ok? Show her you still love her and you aren't going anywhere, you're just changing you for you. She has to be able to still see 'you' in there.


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## phillipw1970

I am not being an a$$hole, she is though. There is a lot of anger there still. The problem is I am standing up to her being nasty to me.


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## turnera

Strong men can handle women's anger. Withstanding it makes you more respectable and admirable. Once she realizes you aren't reverting back, she'll start to calm down.


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## phillipw1970

I haven't dealt with it before I have always tried to appease her. She is very hostile and angry today. I won't try and apologize, her manner and way she has been speaking to me is awful and I called her out about it and said it was unacceptable. She is finding fault with everything I say it do, but that has been going on for long time but recently I have avoiding the blame shift game and I am no longer being quiet and passive about it. She has also been deliberately. I think, reading other things into what I am saying. When I said it was dangerous to distance herself from me she said it was a threat. When I was telling off the boys this morning she thought I was talking to her and blew up. There is an element of confusion I think, where I had got comfortable with being a nice guy I think she had as well. So there is the contradictory position where she doesn't like me being meek but wants me back to the way I was. I keep telling her I am not doing this for you it is for me. I have had long standing issues of lack of self-esteem and self-confidence and this is helping me deal with them. Of course I want to show her how much I love her but she has distanced herself so much it is almost impossible to do and for me it would also be rewarding her bad behaviour as well.


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## phillipw1970

As a sign of trust she has agreed for me to be in charge of the finances. We will pool our salaries into a joint account and everything will go from there. She also said she will never forgive me for not having a third child and a lot of the resentment stems from that. She is adjusting to my new behaviour but is sceptical about my reasons or whether I maintain it. She has agreed to marriage counselling but she says she wants to sort herself first. I have said I will give her a little more time to sort herself out but if she isn't making progress I will make an appointment for us ASAP. She also thinks I am taking the blame for everything. I have told her I am taking ownership of my mistakes. 
I now look at our house at it is a disaster area so I know I need to start working on making our house more liveable. It won't be immediate but I need to make it a nice family house. I need to be a more Alpha Male and stop my Beta tendencies.


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## turnera

Very impressive!

And what's wrong with your house?


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## phillipw1970

Just very run down and tatty. It needs sprucing up. I am planning a skip to take away all our rubbish next week but it needs redecorating. It's an enormous project but I will start after the rubbish has been cleared.
Still sleeping separately but she has gone back to calling me darling and doesn't pull away when I am around her. I also made her laugh and smile today. 
I have contacted my bank and I aim to get everything transferred by the 1st July.


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## turnera

Just pick one project a week to fix around the house. She'll notice.


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## phillipw1970

There is a refusal to move on and a resistance to progress right now. She tells me that she wants to move on but I pointed out that her actions are not matching her words. She is afraid of her answer and I said you need to face the answer full on whether good or bad. I am doing behaving differently and she has noticed glimpses she says but again does not believe I will keep up with it. She mocked my attempts to get back into politics as a waste of time but she could not grasp the fact that I want to do something that I am interested in not what she considers sensible or what she would choose and I told her she is even trying to control my hobbies. We are back to sleeping together but intimacy is not on the cards yet. She is very confused as she will not kiss me but in bed pull my hands towards her to cuddle when she is sleeping. I told her there is only a little time remaining before I contact a counsellor to resolve this. That is not to say I haven't seen some progress, glimpses as she calls it, our communication is better since I have stopped being submissive. I am not afraid now to initiate a conversation or disagree with her if I think she is wrong. There has been softening in her approach and the hostility has lessened towards me. I have also made a start on the house starting to clear the rubbish and got some new chairs for the kitchen. I have decided as well not to be so submissive in my body language around her and I am being more tactile lately and less hesitant in showing my affection. I am feeling more confident in myself and my self worth is much higher but there is still confusion over my new behaviour and my reasons. There is still the suspicion from her that I am changing for her rather than for myself. I think the fact I stand up to her now is also confusing as I haven't behaved like this before. She thinks the good things I am doing will stop of she lets her shields down. I can't and I am not going to try and convince her otherwise. I have told her I have no solution you have to find the answer within yourself and whatever you decide good or bad I will still carry on doing what I am doing. I can't wait forever, we either have to move together or move on apart.


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## Chaparral

Did you read the mmslp book linked to below?


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## Decorum

Chaparral said:


> Did you read the mmslp book linked to below?


phillipw1970,

I was in a very similar situation in my marriage. I saw the same reactions of "I being too macho, to independent etc".

Honestly before "enlightenment", I was walking on eggshell all the time, acquiescing to my wife in most things, and just generally living in fear, though I did not recognize it for what it was at the time.

I know you will not go back, because once you let that genie out of the bottle, and you get to the point where you are willing to start over, your new found self respect will not allow you to go back to such weakness.

This is what I would tell her, and also tell her you found your self respect and you will never throw it away or disown it again, but you know you are trying to find a balance between maintaining your responsibilities/self-respect and respecting the same in your partner. Tell her you will grow into that with time, sometimes growth requires establishing proper balance.

Ever watch a teenager grow 6 inches in a summer, and then grow into his new frame, and become an accomplished athlete?

BTW don't over do the 180 now, that is there for you to survive not to punish your spouse.

Sometimes people mistake kindness for their former weakness, it's not!!!!

Here is the thing I really want to tell you..

With your confidence up, learn to show kindness and subtly flirt. Especially when you are in a more non_romantic setting.

Do you remember how to flirt, you are talking with a woman and you push a boundary, right? Maybe a quick gentile touch on her shoulder when you say something then move away and onto something else.

You are talking and you move in a little close to her face to kindly emphasize something and while looking her in the eyes you "absently minded-ly" replace her hair behind her ear, then move away and onto something else.

When you have strength and confidence, it will be your kindness that will be attractive to her. Miss this and you are causing unnecessary drama and unintentionally pushing her away.

The types of things I am talking about will register in her emotional center even if her conscious mind thinks WTF? Give it some time, she will likely mirror it within about 12-48 hours, just a gesture or something but you see it. Don't go overboard then (smile acceptingly), and just take small consistent steps. Mirror back sometime later in a different way when she shows she wants it, you will see it in her face and eyes when they "invite you in".

This Strength/Kindness tension is what you need to do to win her.

Just my perspective, I hope it helps.
Take care.


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## phillipw1970

I have hit a wall. An emotional wall. I have tried to reconnect with her but they are brushed off, ignored, pushed away or not taken seriously with laughing at my actions thrown in for good measure. She says she loves me but only when I'm not there......I have told her I will not hide my feelings for her but she is in real danger of pushing me out of the relationship. I won't tolerate this behaviour from her. It is unacceptable and the constant rejections from her emotionally will push me out of the door. Her disrespect is palpable and I have made it clear that I am not happy with her behaviour. I have also told her I have seen no evidence of this love she professes for me and her actions around me are the opposite of what love is. She has built this wall up and become emotionally distant and she won't let it down. She says she has decided to stay with me but if she thinks the marriage is going to bump along like this for much longer she is seriously mistaken.


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## turnera

Two things. First, women take a LONG time to change their mind. She will not believe that you've really changed, not for months, if not a year or two. She'll always be waiting for the weakling to return. So no, she's not going to be vulnerable with you until she believes you've changed.

Second, ACTIONS, not WORDS, ok? Don't TELL her how you're feeling. SHOW her. "Seriously? You're laughing at me? I don't have to take that. I'll see you tomorrow. I'm getting a hotel room." AND THEN LEAVE. Leave for the night, or at least leave for a few hours, go to a friend's house. DO NOT STAY in a room where she is laughing at you. Got it? Show her a consequence for being rude to you. Otherwise she has no reason to change.


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## Roselyn

You're only married for 8 years. You are displaying a stressful marriage of 20 years. You are not responsible for your wife's happiness. It's good that you are pursuing activities that will make you happy and stopped placing your wife in a pedestal.

Continue to take your stand...I'm cheering for you.


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## phillipw1970

I think she wants me to find a solution for her. I have told her I can't break down her wall for her. She is also feeling angry that she has suffered from my previous behaviour and there has been no consequences for my actions over the years and she doesn't believe I fully accept the pain I caused her. I think there may be an element of trying to make me pay for all the bad things I have done. I have taken ownership of my previous actions but she considers it unfair that she be expected to move on without me not going through the equivalent of what she has gone through. She doesn't believe I have been through the emotional pain on the same level that she has. She has said she can try and suppress her anger but I said no, as this would be false and she would be forcing down her anger and blow up over something trivial. I want something real not fake.I also made it clear that I will not accept her behaviour towards me and she is pushing me away by hiding behind her wall. In her mind her logic is since she has put up her wall I haven't done anything bad so it must be working and if she lets her wall down I will do something bad again. She has also said everything I say basically pisses her off and she has to bite her tongue to stop snapping at me. I have said there is no immediate solution but I won't allow the situation to develop into a comfortable rut of her hiding behind her wall and me not doing anything. I will be probing and listening but I won't be passive in all this.


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## Tron

phillipw1970 said:


> I want something real not fake.I also made it clear that I will not accept her behaviour towards me and she is pushing me away by hiding behind her wall. In her mind her logic is since she has put up her wall I haven't done anything bad so it must be working and if she lets her wall down I will do something bad again.


Keep working on yourself Phillip. You are doing well.

At some point, the long term consequence of her poor behavior and staying behind walls is that there will be no home together, NO marriage with you...just divorce and co-parenting. Have you been clear with her on that?

What is your internal timeline? If you haven't considered it before, you might want to do that. Don't share it with her. There are subtle things you can do along the way to create some discomfort that will hopefully cause her to either get on board or not. Nevertheless, be patient with her up until you approach that date.


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## turnera

phillipw1970 said:


> I think there may be an element of trying to make me pay for all the bad things I have done.


No. This is a weak person's, an unenlightened person's way of making someone ELSE responsible for THEM. So SHE doesn't have to do anything. Remember that people want to stay comfortable, in their comfort zone, and won't change until the pain of staying in that place becomes MORE painful than changing. 

That is what YOU experienced. Staying in a place where she does horrible things to you was so painful that you chose to look at yourself and change.

Don't accept her blame. Tell her she's welcome to believe whatever she wants, but you don't have to accept her version; that you know what you are and aren't responsible for, and you hope that she too will start to learn more about herself. Keep telling her you're there, you're growing, you're improving, and you will welcome her along the same journey if she wants to come.


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## phillipw1970

Yes, I have made it clear there are consequences to her actions or in this case inaction. I haven't given her a deadline but I have 6 months in my head as my personal deadline. This is dependent on what progress I perceive has taken place.


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## turnera

Tell her the truth.


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## NotLikeYou

phillipw1970 said:


> You don't have to wait until Sunday. I have already signed up with my local athletic club as I used to do shot put at school so I am getting back into that. I am trying out with my local Cricket club today and I love Politics and was very active in my 20's so I have joined my local party and I have volunteered to campaign during the General Election here. The difference in me is that I am not trying to fix or resolve her problems or say what she wants to hear. I haven't consulted her about what I am doing I have just told her. I can't fix her feelings and my talking is for me different. This is not me hanging on her every word trying to solve everything and make her happy she has to decide what she wants I have already decided. Also in the past I have passively and hid away hoping it will all blow over and I can't do anymore but her decision is not what I need for her validation or my reassurance but I need to know if there is no future so I can move on and get on with my life. This is what is fuelling my impatience. The change in me is enormous and will remain whatever happens.





phillipw1970 said:


> I have hit a wall. An emotional wall. I have tried to reconnect with her but they are brushed off, ignored, pushed away or not taken seriously with laughing at my actions thrown in for good measure. She says she loves me but only when I'm not there......I have told her I will not hide my feelings for her but she is in real danger of pushing me out of the relationship. I won't tolerate this behaviour from her. It is unacceptable and the constant rejections from her emotionally will push me out of the door. Her disrespect is palpable and I have made it clear that I am not happy with her behaviour. I have also told her I have seen no evidence of this love she professes for me and her actions around me are the opposite of what love is. She has built this wall up and become emotionally distant and she won't let it down. She says she has decided to stay with me but if she thinks the marriage is going to bump along like this for much longer she is seriously mistaken.





phillipw1970 said:


> I think she wants me to find a solution for her. I have told her I can't break down her wall for her. She is also feeling angry that she has suffered from my previous behaviour and there has been no consequences for my actions over the years and she doesn't believe I fully accept the pain I caused her. I think there may be an element of trying to make me pay for all the bad things I have done. I have taken ownership of my previous actions but she considers it unfair that she be expected to move on without me not going through the equivalent of what she has gone through. She doesn't believe I have been through the emotional pain on the same level that she has. She has said she can try and suppress her anger but I said no, as this would be false and she would be forcing down her anger and blow up over something trivial. I want something real not fake.I also made it clear that I will not accept her behaviour towards me and she is pushing me away by hiding behind her wall. In her mind her logic is since she has put up her wall I haven't done anything bad so it must be working and if she lets her wall down I will do something bad again. *She has also said everything I say basically pisses her off* and she has to bite her tongue to stop snapping at me. *I have said* there is no immediate solution but I won't allow the situation to develop into a comfortable rut of her hiding behind her wall and me not doing anything. I will be probing and listening but I won't be passive in all this.


So, philip.

How did the tryouts for the Cricket Club go? Are you on the team? When's the next game? How did campaigning in the general election go? Cameron wants to abolish free speech in the name of tolerance, I see.

I'm only asking because I urged you to go do some new things and you listed these off as changes you were making, but I don't see an update regarding YOU.

I'll be honest with you, man. Tron thinks you're doing great, and wants you to keep working on yourself. I ain't seeing it.

I see more talk and talk and talk. 

I mean, you even go and write how she says that "everything you say pisses her off," and then you kept talking to her. She laughs at you. You talk about it. She rejects you. You talk about it.

She tries to avoid talking to you. You ASSERTIVELY and with CONFIDENCE...... talk to her.

There's no point in dogging you about this. You can't help talking, no matter how important silence is.

So I am going to keep dogging you about the new things you are doing to change up your life.

I don't care about your wife one little bit. I want to know what YOU are doing with your spare time.

How far did you shot put in school? How far are you throwing now?


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## turnera

Amen.


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## phillipw1970

The campaigning didn't go well as we lost but I am in contact with the local party and we will plan for the Euro referendum. I'm in the 4th team and the first match is next Saturday. I was throwing about 12m in school and right now I am only getting to 9-10m so I am doing bodypump at that time instead. May help build up the lost muscle tone. I have also signed up to Adult singing classes which I will start on Wednesday 27th which will help with my confidence levels. There is a criticism here of me talking but for me it is important I keep the lines of communication open. I refuse to build my own wall and hide behind it. I am not telling her what she wants to hear and I don't back down from being honest with her anymore. I believe in myself more and if it all goes bad that option doesn't scare me anymore and I have made this clear to her as well.


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## turnera

Talking is fine, as long as you also give ACTIONS to make sure you get what you want. Talking just in the hopes that she will suddenly care and change is weak. And pointless.


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## phillipw1970

To talk just to get her to change her mind is naive and ridiculous. I have to communicate but there is no choice in my activities I am doing them whether she approves or not. I want her to join me in my journey but if she doesn't than I move on.


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## mdion54650

how do i post a thread?


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