# Arrrrrrggggghhh



## Neil

A 2 year old and a 4 year old.

Absolutely fine apart, but together, like 2 raging bulls (mainly in my mind the youngest "starting it all")...

Now, they always "miss each other" when not together and are angels when they are split up, but by god they are so hard to handle when they are together.

I know that this is down to attention, but how can you tame them in general.

Tips welcome (and I don't mind if like many TV shows, it turns out to be us parents that aren't doing things right, which is I suspect in how we handle them). especially for cold weather days/activities etc keeping them entertained etc

This has to be the single most hardest problem me and my partner are facing...

Very general post I admit, but am free to answer any questions which may enlighten why they/we are like this


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## Mom6547

Neil said:


> A 2 year old and a 4 year old.
> 
> Absolutely fine apart, but together, like 2 raging bulls (mainly in my mind the youngest "starting it all")...
> 
> Now, they always "miss each other" when not together and are angels when they are split up, but by god they are so hard to handle when they are together.
> 
> I know that this is down to attention, but how can you tame them in general.


You don't. Issue by issue, you teach them. Give us some examples. Maybe we can help you out.

Otherwise look for
Discipline for Life, Getting it Right with your Children

Amazon.com: Setting Limits: How to Raise Responsible, Independent Children by Providing Clear Boundaries (Revised and Expanded Second Edition) (0086874512122): Robert J. Mackenzie: Books

and 

Amazon.com: how to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk: Books



> This has to be the single most hardest problem me and my partner are facing...
> 
> Very general post I admit, but am free to answer any questions which may enlighten why they/we are like this


Like what?


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## Neil

Its more "giddy" uncontrolable.

Example,

Yesterday, they began chasing each other around the house, very noisy. Not a bad thing no, but it gets giddy. The uncontrolable laughter on both parts, until a point it gets rough (and more loud) untl one of them hurts themselves.

We try and nip it in the bud as soon as they start getting too giddy. Its too late, they then don't listen, and are uncontrolablly laughing when we are trying to talk to them. They continue and continue until we split them up.

The eldest a lot of the time becomes angry, shouting and saying "don't talk to me", "i'm not listening".

It breaks our hearts, its almost as if he is angry with us for stopping him having fun. We don't want that, but play nicely and not "uncontrollable".

Hope that makes sense.

Other examples, the youngest is now starting to throw things. I've lost count the number of times we take things of him when he throws. He just finds something else to throw until we have a complete pile of toys/items on top of the fridge.

We spoke to the nursery the elsest is in to gets some tips. Things like speak in a softer lower tone, which engages listening because they need to listen if we say it quietly, rather than rasing voices and they then "switch off". Coming down to eye level at the same time etc.

May work for a day or two and then that no longer works.

Its liek a constant test where something works for a day or 2 and then it never works again.

We try consequences, ie if you do that, this is going to happen (ie 1, don't do that because of, then 2, we've asked you not to do that, otherwise this consequence will happen, strike 3, it happens).

So I also think the book recomendations you gave I will look into.

incidently, the eldest has the same issue at school. He has become "best friends" with another, and the school has the same issues now. Where they have split them up. But we can't constantly split our kids up at home all the time.

The youngest just "mokey sees monkey does", and is starting to show the same behaviours as his elder.

I'm at a point where I need to do something before it gets out of hand completely, just at a loss as to what


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## Neil

Just ordered the book on the 1st link you posted after reading reviews on them both.

Lets see how we can put something in their into practice.

Although estimated delivery date is anything up to 4 WEEKS...

OUCH.


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## Mom6547

The Setting Limits one sounds like the closest to your needs, imo.


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## turnera

When your child throws something, you calmly walk over to him, take him by the hand, sit him down on his 'time out' spot and tell him 'you acted wrong and you will sit here for 2 minutes while you think about what you've done.' When you come back in 2 minutes, you get on their level, repeat what they did wrong to get in time out, ask them to apologize, and when they do, you hug them.

Rinse and repeat.

Kinda like training a puppy. Tons of work up front but, once they get it, they get it.


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## turnera

Oh, and start watching SuperNanny every Friday night (or the repeats on Style channel). You'll learn a TON.


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## Runs like Dog

Weird how Jo doesn't have any kids of her own.


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## turnera

But, boy, does her advice work!


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## Runs like Dog

I train dogs, it's pretty basic stuff. Kids, dogs, they work the same way more or less.


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## MGirl

turnera said:


> When your child throws something, you calmly walk over to him, take him by the hand, sit him down on his 'time out' spot and tell him 'you acted wrong and you will sit here for 2 minutes while you think about what you've done.' When you come back in 2 minutes, you get on their level, repeat what they did wrong to get in time out, ask them to apologize, and when they do, you hug them.
> 
> Rinse and repeat.
> 
> Kinda like training a puppy. Tons of work up front but, once they get it, they get it.


Yup, this is *exactly* what we do and it works like magic. We use 1 minute per his age in years. 3 years old=3 minutes in time-out.

Supernanny rocks, BTW!


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## turnera

Yep. I just put my 1 year old puppy in his kennel last night because for the second night in a row, he went to DD20's bed and got one of her stuffed animals. Immediately, he got sent to the kennel. No more fun tonight!


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## Neil

Yeah, I take a lot of heart from Supernanny, she is absolutely fantastic in what she does.

I know, that how we are handling the kids are directly related to their behaviour, and I identified this purely by watching her series.

The book arrived yesterday, and I have so far read the introduction and chapter 1. I can't believe how much it mirrors what we/our kids do.

This could be an interesting journey

and thanks for the advice so far, the biggest thing I can relate to at the moment is that we don't do consistency


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## turnera

Remember, just like a master is a puppy's whole world - because he has no choice - you two are your children's whole world. 

They watch you like a HAWK. EVERYTHING you do is scrutinized, analyzed, and considered. 

My friend, her mother once told her - jokingly - when she was about 7, after she had done something wrong..."If you don't behave I'm going to take you back to the store and get a new daughter."

She brought it up to her mother 50 years later, and the mother didn't even remember saying that. But guess what? At the age of SEVEN, my friend instantly decided that she had to become PERFECT, for fear of being replaced.

She's spent her entire life trying to be PERFECT, just so she doesn't become abandoned.

Be very aware of what you do to and in front of your kids.


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## Runs like Dog

turnera said:


> But, boy, does her advice work!


That tightly restrained feminine discipline is, I don't know....hot? Dear me I have issues.


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## turnera

lol


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## bunnybear

I use the Supernanny techniques too


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## Mom6547

Runs like Dog said:


> I train dogs, it's pretty basic stuff. Kids, dogs, they work the same way more or less.


Not so much. The basic GOAL should not be the same. If all you ever want from your children is behavior, like you want with dogs, then that is all you are ever going to shoot for. Behavior and character are not even worlds close together. 

Half of what parents don't get about children is why they are doing what they are doing. Every malfeasance is seen as BAD, deliberate "naughtiness" on the part of the child. Do you know why a 2 year old throws the dirt into Tommy's face? He wants to know what it will do! He does not want to hurt Tommy. He is doing a physics experiment and has no earthly idea, in his limited experience that it is going to hurt Tommy.

So what do we teach with our "swats" and our punishments? You are too stupid to understand what the problem is. Just don't do it, because I SAY don't do it. Obey me. Would YOU want to cooperate with someone like that? Or, perhaps do you think you might become a naughty kid who willfully tries to get away with things?


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## turnera

Mom, I don't think you were listening. I think that each of the posters who said they spank said they do so AFTER giving the child the option not to repeat the bad behavior, and then leaving it in the child's hands whether to do something that will get him punished. IMO, it is part of teaching your child that he has power over his own future because he can either do whatever the hell he wants (and not get punished, or get a 'oh son, now, don't do that, it's not nice), or he can recognize early that he doesn't own the world, and there WILL be many occasions in life where he will have to choose self-wants vs getting along in the world.

IMO, this world is too full of young adults who've been raised by parents who just want their kids to be happy and 'feel good,' and somewhere along the way the parents forgot to point out - through consequences - that, when you grow up and are on your own, the people you deal with will NOT treat you like your mommy and daddy did. In fact, if you expect it to, you'll fall flat on your face.


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## Mom6547

turnera said:


> Mom, I don't think you were listening. I think that each of the posters who said they spank said they do so AFTER giving the child the option not to repeat the bad behavior, and then leaving it in the child's hands whether to do something that will get him punished.


I understood that perfectly. I maintain that punishment and spanking are the least effective tools to teach children. Did you read what *I* wrote?



> IMO, it is part of teaching your child that he has power over his own future because he can either do whatever the hell he wants (and not get punished, or get a 'oh son, now, don't do that, it's not nice), or he can recognize early that he doesn't own the world, and there WILL be many occasions in life where he will have to choose self-wants vs getting along in the world.
> 
> IMO, this world is too full of young adults who've been raised by parents who just want their kids to be happy and 'feel good,' and somewhere along the way the parents forgot to point out - through consequences -


Always people get stuck in the permissive / punitive rut. Nowhere did I say I have ANY desire to be a permissive parent. There is a solid difference between the allowance of consequences and the meting of punishment.


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## turnera

*shrug*

Glad you have your system worked out.

The one time I got a swat, I learned a LOT. The one time my DD20 got a swat, so did she. And both times, we deserved to experience a consequence because we chose to do something wrong after being told not to. It worked for us.


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## turnera

fwiw, of course people can get 'stuck' in punitive ruts. Such people are ignorant and shouldn't have kids in the first place. But I doubt such people peruse self-help forums, either.


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## Mom6547

turnera said:


> fwiw, of course people can get 'stuck' in punitive ruts.


Sorry I was not clear. I think I did not express myself well. I think that people think that there is a polar dichotomy between puntitiveness and permissiveness, that those are the two options at one's disposal and somewhere within the range in between. I don't think that is the case at all.

I think you and I agree that we do our kids no service by giving in to their whims. But the alternative to permissive parenting need not be punitive parenting. Positive discipline, the combination of 
- acceptance and reflection of kids' feelings
- problem solving skills
- allowance and delivery of natural and logical consequences
- learning how to promote and not set barriers to cooperation
- teaching kids to own their behavior

...

none of those require the delivery of arbitrary, unrelated punishment like spanking. Even time out when used as an unrelated punishment for a problem that does not involve getting control of emotions begins to lose any effectiveness.

The point I meant to make is that people don't even frame the correct debate, in my opinion. The debate is often framed as one of we are too strict or too lenient. It seems to me to just be the wrong debate. Are we being *effective at teaching our children the life lessons that they need to be successful, ethical, people who will not fall under the influence of the ne'er do wells that they will come across.

I *think* like you, I feel the parents who are super permissive, spoil if you want to call it that, are not preparing their kids as the kids have known no limits and have come to believe that their entitlement is their due. I guess I think those poor kids are most hosed of all!

But on the flip side, I think we can refine punitive into positive, *effective* discipline that takes the best of making sure that kids are held accountable for their actions while eliminating some of the pitfalls of traditional punishment, obedience based discipline approaches.

(I AM going to convince you to read the book. Really!  )


The example that chills me to the bone is the one in which you think of your children meeting a drug dealer on the outskirts of the school yard. You know that they have perfected their sales technique and have at least one semi-convincing peer is nearby to support the sale.

What is my child going to do? The child who has been raised in the permissive family believes that they can do whatever they want and will. The risk to the child in the punitive, rules, obedience based family is this. Always his behavior has been managed for him. Reward (aka what's in it for me?) and punishment (who is going to stop me?) 

Now of course, no system is perfectly good or perfectly flawed in its conception or execution. One can employ punishment with good will and generally get better lessons across than just OBEY ME. My parents were big into punishment but still managed to instill a desire to be a good person in me. But for me, I think anything worth doing is worth doing with MORE detailed thought. The better our goal, the more likely a good outcome. 

So why WOULD one aim at simply behavior management through punishment when one can aim for better? 








> Such people are ignorant and shouldn't have kids in the first place. But I doubt such people peruse self-help forums, either.


Oh yes they do!


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## turnera

I think you are misconstruing 'spanking' with ... what did you call it? Oh, yeah... 'OBEY ME.'

You seem to be saying that if a parent spanks they are instantly becoming Nazis. I am saying that that is not the case. That is all.


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## Mom6547

turnera said:


> I think you are misconstruing 'spanking' with ... what did you call it? Oh, yeah... 'OBEY ME.'


What other information is imparted? I care? 



> You seem to be saying that if a parent spanks they are instantly becoming Nazis. I am saying that that is not the case. That is all.


I said nothing of the sort. Are you defensive? I said my own father spanked me and categorized it as a poor idea. A mistake. Hardly Nazi.

I think you are intentionally misreading me so as to not have to think too deeply and threaten your view. I don't care if you don't agree with me. But I wish you would at least not credit me with saying things I never said.


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## turnera

And I said MY father spanked me - once - and it was a good idea. Because it taught me to respect authority, when I was willfully choosing to thwart it. 

I don't care if you agree with me either. I just don't want people reading to come away from this thinking that NOT spanking is the only solution. People have been spanking for thousands of years. And the world has been creating the most incredible people. Since I've been alive, we've watched Dr. Spock, I'm Ok You're Ok, political correctness, and being your kid's friend take over. 

Today, in the last 50 years, we have a higher percentage of people in prison than ever before, where the prisoners spit on and throw feces on the guards and the guards aren't allowed to do a thing. We have millions of people - multiple generations - living off of the government because they weren't raised by their parents to push themselves and strive and be proud of their accomplishments. We have kids shooting other kids - and teachers - in the same age where teachers are no longer allowed to keep discipline in their classes; you act up, you get to go home. 

All these people have become where they are, IMO, because of one thing - loss of respect for authority. I'm not saying spanking is the savior for that. I am saying that the entire change in attitude since I've been around in making sure your child is happy can be taken too far and become detrimental to him. 

Do you solve that by spanking him? Of course not. But ruling it out entirely because of today's mentality isn't helping, either. JMHO


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## Mom6547

turnera said:


> And I said MY father spanked me - once - and it was a good idea. Because it taught me to respect authority, when I was willfully choosing to thwart it.


If respect for authority, which to me is the same thing as obedience, is what you want to teach, then I can see spanking as a useful tool. I do not want to teach respect for authority, in particular. The reason that something is right, safe or whatever has next to nothing to do with me and my authority. My role as teacher of right, safe has more to do with the fact that I have more experience than a child. My authority comes from that. 




> I don't care if you agree with me either. I just don't want people reading to come away from this thinking that NOT spanking is the only solution.


They will come away with whatever they come away with. For ME, not spanking IS the only solution. It makes not sense to put a tool in your tool box that is less effective than other tools. It makes no sense to me to shoot for ok when doing the most important work of your life, raising your children. 

I am entitled to make that point. I would LOVE to see people think beyond is spanking ok or not ok to what else is there? Are there BETTER ways of thinking about discipline? What is this investment discipline thing? How do I instill self discipline? 



> People have been spanking for thousands of years. And the world has been creating the most incredible people. Since I've been alive, we've watched Dr. Spock, I'm Ok You're Ok, political correctness, and being your kid's friend take over.


You continue to attribute to me things I have not advocated. I love my children dearly. But I am not their friend. (Neither does Doctor Spock, by the way. Not sure which of his books you have read. But the one I read sure as heck didn't.) I am a fairly strict disciplinarian with very high standards for my children. 

You ARE kind of proving my point that people think that the entire debate about discipline is one of strict vs permissive. 



> Today, in the last 50 years, we have a higher percentage of people in prison than ever before, where the prisoners spit on and throw feces on the guards and the guards aren't allowed to do a thing. We have millions of people - multiple generations - living off of the government because they weren't raised by their parents to push themselves and strive and be proud of their accomplishments. We have kids shooting other kids - and teachers - in the same age where teachers are no longer allowed to keep discipline in their classes; you act up, you get to go home.
> 
> All these people have become where they are, IMO, because of one thing - loss of respect for authority.


I agree that we have a crisis of undisciplined children in the USA. But I don't agree that respect for authority is the problem. Lack of respect for right and wrong, sense of entitlement that one is entitled to whatever one wants, lack of *self* discipline, lack of problem solving skills are what is missing. 

The problem I see with valuing authority is that it is often claimed by people who are wrong or act wrong. Without a firm commitment to and understanding of right and wrong, one can easily be lead astray by authority. 



> I'm not saying spanking is the savior for that. I am saying that the entire change in attitude since I've been around in making sure your child is happy can be taken too far and become detrimental to him.


No doubt. I don't disagree that permissive parenting has made a very large and BAD impact on this country. (I have no opinion/ knowledge of other cultures.)



> Do you solve that by spanking him? Of course not. But ruling it out entirely because of today's mentality isn't helping, either. JMHO


If I haven't indicated why I rule it out entirely, you should read the book!


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## turnera

Mom6547 said:


> If respect for authority, which to me is the same thing as obedience, is what you want to teach, then I can see spanking as a useful tool. I do not want to teach respect for authority, in particular. The reason that something is right, safe or whatever has next to nothing to do with me and my authority. My role as teacher of right, safe has more to do with the fact that I have more experience than a child. My authority comes from that.


We'll just have to agree to disagree. IMO, until a child is old enough to go out and support himself on his own, his parent IS his authority and he SHOULD learn to respect it. Children NEED obedience because it keeps them safe, keeps them healthy, and puts them in a mental stage wherein they grow up expecting to learn from their parent the skills they'll need when they become their own adult.

Your kids don't respect authority?


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## turnera

Mom6547 said:


> I agree that we have a crisis of undisciplined children in the USA. But I don't agree that respect for authority is the problem. Lack of respect for right and wrong, sense of entitlement that one is entitled to whatever one wants, lack of *self* discipline, lack of problem solving skills are what is missing.
> 
> The problem I see with valuing authority is that it is often claimed by people who are wrong or act wrong. Without a firm commitment to and understanding of right and wrong, one can easily be lead astray by authority.


Do you teach children to respect red lights? That is authority. 

How does one learn to believe they are not entitled to what they want, if they don't respect their parent as the authority?

Neil, sorry for the T/J. I'll stop now and let you get back to your issue.


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## madimoff

If I can step in and Supernanny the pair of you 

On the one hand, there is a case to be made for parents to parent - the three strikes and some kind of consistent consequence (respect for elders, understanding that they've overstepped a requested mark, etc etc)

On the other hand, parents would do well to remember that children LEARN through PLAY and indeed probably don't recognise the likely consequences of their actions unless they are nicely, fairly, explained. 

The two positions, despite my use of the 'one hand' 'other hand' phrasing, are NOT mutually exclusive. 

In short, you're both right. Now back to the poor chap's kids!!!!


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## Mom6547

turnera said:


> We'll just have to agree to disagree. IMO, until a child is old enough to go out and support himself on his own, his parent IS his authority and he SHOULD learn to respect it. Children NEED obedience because it keeps them safe, keeps them healthy, and puts them in a mental stage wherein they grow up expecting to learn from their parent the skills they'll need when they become their own adult.


How do they acquire the knowledge and experience with which to judge right and wrong if they are not allowed to practice that judgment? They are supposed to take what we say at face value? That is precisely what I DON'T want.

The reason you require kids to act in a safe manner is not based in your authority, it is based on the objective fact of unsafeness. I allow, even require, my kids be part of that risk/ benefit analysis. They want to bounce on the trampoline that our neighbor gave us. We have not yet gotten a net.The risk of jumping on the trampoline is too great. So we talk about the risk. Death as a risk is fairly compelling. I get no kick back or objection whatsoever when I tell them that they cannot jump on the trampoline until we get a net.

That is not to say that I will not remove the trampoline if they choose to use it in an unsafe manner. I will. But my authority is not what is operative there but the risk itself.

I don't NEED to spank them for using the trampoline when I said not to, for example. Because A. they are smart enough not to want to risk dying, and B. because the natural consequence of using something in an improper manner is removal of said object. They can no longer be unsafe with something that is no longer present.




> Your kids don't respect authority?


They know what authority is and why it is. They know better than to talk back to the teacher, for example. But I have not taught them to accept it without thought.

For example... My son got in trouble at school for something he did not do. He was issued a punishment. In an obedience model, he would be required to accept the punishment. Can you imagine how confusing, especially if he were small, it would be to get meted a punishment for something you did not do? I suggested to him that he speak to the teacher. He spoke to her, telling her he did not care over much about the punishment, but he felt unjustly accused. She did not believe him (not a fan of this particular teacher but it is what it is). He had to do the punishment. But he knew in his own mind that he was right and had done no wrong.

It may seem a small difference, but it is a fairly important one.


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## Mom6547

turnera said:


> Do you teach children to respect red lights? That is authority.


Not solely. It is traffic control. They are smart enough to understand that traffic control is necessary to keep us safe. Just yesterday, as we were driving down a completely deserted road at 5:00am with perfect visibility, I ran a red light. If I were particularly influenced by authority, I would have sat there until the light turned green. He called me on it, I explained. Nuff said.



> How does one learn to believe they are not entitled to what they want, if they don't respect their parent as the authority?


Because they are taught right and wrong.



> Neil, sorry for the T/J. I'll stop now and let you get back to your issue.


Actually I think this speaks very directly to Neil's issue.


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## Mom6547

madimoff said:


> If I can step in and Supernanny the pair of you
> 
> On the one hand, there is a case to be made for parents to parent - the three strikes and some kind of consistent consequence (respect for elders, understanding that they've overstepped a requested mark, etc etc)


Why even bother with three strikes? You have just taught the kid that they can get away with new stuff 2 times!



> On the other hand, parents would do well to remember that children LEARN through PLAY and indeed probably don't recognise the likely consequences of their actions unless they are nicely, fairly, explained.


Even better than explained is natural consequence and/or logical consequence.



> The two positions, despite my use of the 'one hand' 'other hand' phrasing, are NOT mutually exclusive.
> 
> In short, you're both right. Now back to the poor chap's kids!!!!


Nope. We cannot be since we hold different opinions.


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## Neil

Wow...

Not been around for a while, but I have managed to read through the introduction and chapter one of the book. The first thing that hits out straight away is that their are so many examples that look like "us"...

And the major thing I have read and understood is the link between behaviour and "listening".

When I say listening, most of the time the behaviour is directly linked to their parents not listening to what they are trying to say/do. 

I must say this really has hit home, because since then, I have made sure that I have listen to every word they say, and in parts, it has directly made me realise that I haven't actually been listening to what they want to say/do.

I have also been in places seeing kids have tantrums, and have noticed during the episodes that their parents have not been bloody listening to them AT ALL.

So, whilst this does not conquer all, its certainly made a little bit of difference.

The other one, is making sure your actions back up your words. Not making a threat and then not carrying it out (ie put your toys away, and then end up putting them away yourself)...

A long way to go, but the discussion on here makes interesting reading which I will take along with the book


Thanks Guys (well Girls)


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## Mom6547

I am glad you are making progress. I am not sure which book you chose. I have a triumverate that I like. Discipline for Life gives you the outline. How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen gives you the techniques for building cooperation and avoiding barriers to cooperation. Setting Limits is great for ... setting limits! If I did not give you the titles and you are interested, let me know.


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## Neil

It was the setting limits book which you gave links to (on page 1 of this thread).

Much appriated, although it arrived in about 3 or 4 days, not the estimated 4 weeks (thank god)


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## Mom6547

I did not link for the first book. This is good as well.

Amazon.com: Discipline for Life : Getting it Right with Children (9781887069069): Madelyn Swift: Books

This is a good WHY of effective positive discipline. 

IN MY OPINION, one not shared by many, it takes a great deal of thought, evaluation and introspection to make a good parenting plan. The ongoing work of the entire time, in my opinion. (I just bought Siblings without Rivalry, myself.)


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## Neil

I will be sure to update this thread over the coming weeks, but their are other factors in this too (ie realtionship issues which are another story) but probably strongly linked to their behaviour (see my thread in the mens clubhouse where my partner has PCOS)

But we go away next week, so we know we won't have any issues next week LOL


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## Neil

jimrich said:


> When I took our "out of control" dogs for training, the Instructor told us that WE needed to be trained before we could ever hope to train our dogs! He was right!


So So True...

unfortaunately whilst I am making strides, my partner ISN'T.

She wont read the book, she won't listen to how I am trying to do things because in my mind she sees it as being a bad parent.

Things are still up and down, but its amazing how the kids are now causing more trouble for her and not me, they are beginning to see that I won't let their behaviour be too troublesome and that I mean what I say etc....

I don't understand why she won't even attempt to look at the book unless she sees it as some kind of failure. She isn't, she's a loving, doting kind wonderful mother. She just needs some fine tuning LOL

Any tips, because the second she hears the words "its in that book" etc, she stops listening....


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## jimrich

re: Mom6547
Half of what parents don't get about children is why they are doing what they are doing.

jim: I believe that much of a parent’s misunderstanding would be solved if only the parent took the time to REMEMBER their own childhood.

Do you know why a 2 year old throws the dirt into Tommy's face? 

jim: I wanted ATTENTION and maybe was a little curious about what would happen. 

So what do we teach with our "swats" and our punishments?

jim:I don’t believe “teaching” enters a hitter’s mind. The hitter is just venting angry energy and maybe trying to get some Attention them self.

re: Tunera
when you grow up and are on your own, the people you deal with will NOT treat you like your mommy and daddy did.

jim: When we grew up, no one treated us like our parents did. We were not hit, spanked, beat, or TERRORIZED but we did have to endure REAL “CONSEQUENCES” out in the real world. The “consequences” we suffered as kids, though the opposite of indulgence and coddling, were utterly meaningless in real life and left us more CRIPPLED than prepared for life. IMO, permissive or harsh CONSEQUENCES are both wrong and destructive to a child. Realistic and functional “consequences” such as adults are given, is the right thing!
It often amuses me how many adults can only see the 2 extremes in so-called consequences for kids = brutal or permissive! Yet adults are given a wide range of consequences depending on the offense - but rarely a violent beating or a pat on the wrist! 

re: mom
What is my child going to do? The child who has been raised in the permissive family believes that they can do whatever they want and will.

jim: I had cousins like that!

mom:
The risk to the child in the punitive, rules, obedience based family is this. Always his behavior has been managed for him. Reward (aka what's in it for me?) and punishment (who is going to stop me?)

jim: Yep that was my bro and I. When our menacing parents weren’t there to scare us, we just did whatever and were complete SUCKERS for users and takers. I never got into drugs but my bro did!

Tunera
I think you are misconstruing 'spanking' with ... what did you call it? Oh, yeah... 'OBEY ME.' You seem to be saying that if a parent spanks they are instantly becoming Nazis. I am saying that that is not the case. That is all.

jim: Mine and every parent who spanked their kids that I knew of were in the OBEY ME - OR ELSE! camp. Consequences and being right or wrong had nothing to do with the parent’s violent behavior

re: And I said MY father spanked me - once - and it was a good idea. Because it taught me to respect authority

jim: We were spanked and beaten often but it never taught us to “respect” authority - FEAR IT - but not respect it and it taught us absolutely nothing about right and wrong!
Spank and they will be model citizens! Don’t spank and they’ll become wild criminals………any intelligent and HONEST person will realize that there is something in between these two extremes that works way better. Gee, I wonder what that might be? If I could do my childhood over, I could now come up with about 1000 sensible things my parents could have done besides “punish or permit” to teach me right from wrong. 

re: How do I instill self discipline?

jim: That was what my brother and I never got with PUNITIVE discipline! We had no idea how or even why to “discipline” our self! All we knew was WATCH OUT FOR DAD AND MOM!

re: I agree that we have a crisis of undisciplined children in the USA.

jim: I’d say that those kids have been trained the opposite of my generation. We spoiled by over bearing parenting and today’s kids are spoiled by UNDER BEARING parenting. The pendulum has swung from one side to the other! Anyone with a brain can see that there is a middle ground in which kids can be taught self discipline and learn right from wrong if a parent wants to take the time to LEARN HOW. 

re: IMO, until a child is old enough to go out and support himself on his own, his parent IS his authority and he SHOULD learn to respect it.

jim: Yes, “respect”, not FEAR or INDIFFERENCE! Spanking and hitting teaches FEAR and permissiveness teaches INDIFFERENCE - neither one teach RESPECT unless you equate “respect” with FEAR as my parents did! I look forward to studying the works of those who can teach how to parent WITHOUT spanking and/or permissiveness!

re: Do you teach children to respect red lights? That is authority.

jim: I learned to respect red lights because some adult strangers stopped my brother and I, while running wildly through town and across intersections, and they took the time and loving patience to EXPLAIN to us how we could be injured and what we need to do correctly! We were so moved by their loving concerns (and NOT any brutality) that their teachings stuck with us TO THIS DAY! We respected them because they respected us enough to HELP - NOT PUNISH or IGNORE US!


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## jimrich

Neil said:


> So So True...
> Any tips, because the second she hears the words "its in that book" etc, she stops listening....


IMO, a child will benefit greatly if even just one of their parents is at least trying to give the child some kind of adequate and useful training. I applaud your efforts :smthumbup: and, perhaps when the other parent sees striking improvements in the kids, she will begin using the same approach to role modeling. I now believe our mother knew our dad was WRONG with his violent and or negligent methods BUT she didn't dare contradict him so we had no one to defend us against him. It would have made a big difference if only we had been given just ONE helping hand growing up! Fortunately, we did have a few positive, loving ppl in our lives who helped us anyway!


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## turnera

Neil, is there anyone else she'll listen to? Mom, sister, pastor?


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## turnera

jim, I don't know what you read of mine, but I BELIEVE in spanking. I also believe in moderation and use of spanking judiciously and ONLY when a child knows upcoming consequences, is given chances to choose the right path, and still willfully disobeys. That child - just like my 1 year old dog - is testing his parents; it's their job; it's what they do and how they learn. Unfortunately, some kids get matched up with bad parents.


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## Neil

turnera said:


> Neil, is there anyone else she'll listen to? Mom, sister, pastor?


I'm already on it...

Yesterday I was at my parents and they (the kids) began their usual. Amazingly my parents started doing the same things.

So I took control, and followed some of the books advice. Needless to say it worked (to some extent) until they started on something else. My parents jumped in and began doing the same old "methods"...

I pulled them both to one side and said how one sided I felt in all of this that I am trying to put things in place and NO ONE, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE is listening to what I am saying.

They saw it in action. So, I gave them the ideas on what I am doing, and told them I expect everyone to follow the same guidelines as it was more confusing to the kids being treat differently by different people...

They went quiet, but I am slowly bringing these ideas in, and WILL make sure eveyone see's them work. They will also get to read the book (the parts I am implementing), and hopefully this will then show my partner the way forward...

Its so frustrating after reading some of the book, and it sticks out like a sore thumb that everyone is doing the exact same things your NOT supposed to do... Very frustrating, I just hope I don't lose my temper over it, because I am sick of everyone else being right and they are clearly so wrong. After all, professionals who have worked with hundreds of families and putting a book of techniques together can't be a pile of Bull can it!!!


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## Mom6547

Neil said:


> Its so frustrating after reading some of the book, and it sticks out like a sore thumb that everyone is doing the exact same things your NOT supposed to do... Very frustrating, I just hope I don't lose my temper over it, because I am sick of everyone else being right and they are clearly so wrong. After all, professionals who have worked with hundreds of families and putting a book of techniques together can't be a pile of Bull can it!!!


Yes it IS frustrating. But the proof is in the pudding. Hold your ground. Good luck!


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## turnera

Great job. Now what about HER family?


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## Neil

turnera said:


> Great job. Now what about HER family?


Not even an option i'm affraid...

Her mother has psycotic depression
Her dad is caring for her and very stressed out (Constantly)
Her sister is a drug abuser and theirfore nephew is living with the above
Her same nephew is Autistic (and is increasingly becoming prone to violence)
Her brother doesn't work and has spilt from his girlfriend and is basically living their rent free and has his daughter over twice a week.

So as you acn see, seeking help from her family is very few and far between, if anything, we help them out.

Not that she would forgive me for posting all that, but I think its important to see that we are struggling with our kids, and only really have my parents for support

They do however say they will help us when they can (they have sat in the house whilst we go out for a few hours alone time), but to be fair with the stress and matters they have in hand, its understandable why my partner won't ever ask for help until she litterally has no choice to...


Oh, so "teaching them" is a waste of time, but I suppose she does really listen to her dad, so I could actually drop a few hints for him to press her to read the book...

May have got you point really wrong their BTW


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## turnera

If he would just say something like 'I saw you ABC yesterday with the kids. You know, it may be more effective if you XYZ,' I think it would make a difference.

MOST people will get pissed off if you tell them to read a book. They just will. Try something else.

Does she have any friends who she'd listen to?


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## Mom6547

Neil said:


> They do however say they will help us when they can (they have sat in the house whilst we go out for a few hours alone time), but to be fair with the stress and matters they have in hand, its understandable why my partner won't ever ask for help until she litterally has no choice to...



My husband refused to read the book until he started to see the benefits of my actions. Even then he chose to do most of his learning through me. It is a LONG process.

BUT most people will be resentful of being pressured to read. It sounds like fix yourself, you are broken.


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## turnera

And people like my husband simply don't read well, so that's just torture. He will, however, listen to ME read such a book.


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## Neil

some progress made, she has seen it in action 2 or 3 times now, and I think she is slowly realising what I am talking about. Even my parents are too


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## turnera

Cool!

Try to find an episode or two of SuperNanny to be watching, and see if she'll watch it with you. I learn a lot from that show. A lot of psychology, too. Yesterday was a mother of 5, whose husband worked from home, 2 sets of twins under age 3, and she wouldn't 'let' anyone else watch her kids while she worked. It was all her own issues, you know, but you can't just make her see that. She had to see through Jo's actions how you could do things differently. And in the end, she agreed to letting her husband bring in a part-time helper.


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