# Married Man Sex Life (MMSL) - I got banned



## Mulder

Hey All, I'm rather new to discussing my sex life in a public forum, but a couple years ago after really researching my marital issues I stumbled across MMSL and this site and No more mr nice guy (NMMNG) and the like.

I liked the MMSL forum and I got a lot of good help from a couple of great men. Some advice that woke me the fudge up and smacked me over the head with a 2x4. I went from having crappy sex once a week maybe - to having ok sex 2-3 times a week...and my wife was generally in a better mood.

As a result of finding some success (partly from MMSL but mostly from these other MEN) I felt the desire to "give back" and so I continued to post based on some things I had learned about not being such a beta care taking schlub and acting like a man of purpose, value, vision, success, and owning my sexuality!

Apparently I struck a chord when I posted that I disagreed with one of the moderators over there. I tried to be nice about it but as a public forum open for discussion I felt my comment had weight....especially because it was directed at a woman with a husband who was looking elsewhere and I was that same type of guy many years ago.

I'm posting this here since many people here may have been in dialog with me over there or seen my threads or posts, so that I can set the record straight. I'm not a selfish arsehole that wants to cause trouble. If I hurt someone's feelings then I apologized and made peace. But in this case I was making a point that I was recovered cheating spouse and so my point of view was a valid one, something struck a chord and no matter how I tried to make peace it wasn't accepted. I'm not trying to write a book or create a new method of counseling or coaching - I was just posting my opinion (which is what I thought forums were for).

Anyway - I look forward to posting my experiences and opinions elsewhere if I am not invited back. As well as posting my questions or concerns about my marriage so that I can continue down the path of improvement.

If anyone from MMSL is interested in debating why I should or shouldn't have been banned/deleted that is fine - I just hope ya'll understand I am not looking for a fight and I'm not out to prove anyone right or wrong. I am all about working with people toward good relationships - I really don't have any enemies and I hope Athol and company don't think of me as that.

Peace.


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## treyvion

Mulder said:


> Hey All, I'm rather new to discussing my sex life in a public forum, but a couple years ago after really researching my marital issues I stumbled across MMSL and this site and No more mr nice guy (NMMNG) and the like.


I'm glad you came. Your post reeks of positivity and self-reliance. It's the attitude which will help many of us.

Personaly if I where you and if I got my life and sex-life back on track, i wouldn't spend so much time at looking at things from this viewpoint.




Mulder said:


> I liked the MMSL forum and I got a lot of good help from a couple of great men. Some advice that woke me the fudge up and smacked me over the head with a 2x4. I went from having crappy sex once a week maybe - to having ok sex 2-3 times a week...and my wife was generally in a better mood.


You must describe the picture before and after which helped make the change. It sounds like you took responsibility for your sexlife.



Mulder said:


> As a result of finding some success (partly from MMSL but mostly from these other MEN) I felt the desire to "give back" and so I continued to post based on some things I had learned about not being such a beta care taking schlub and acting like a man of purpose, value, vision, success, and owning my sexuality!


It's alot of spark. "Owning my sexuality". This is a powerful statement. 



Mulder said:


> Apparently I struck a chord when I posted that I disagreed with one of the moderators over there. I tried to be nice about it but as a public forum open for discussion I felt my comment had weight....especially because it was directed at a woman with a husband who was looking elsewhere and I was that same type of guy many years ago.


Describe the guy you where, and you are now? How did you slip into a sexless position and how you powered out of this position.



Mulder said:


> I'm posting this here since many people here may have been in dialog with me over there or seen my threads or posts, so that I can set the record straight. I'm not a selfish arsehole that wants to cause trouble. If I hurt someone's feelings then I apologized and made peace. But in this case I was making a point that I was recovered cheating spouse and so my point of view was a valid one, something struck a chord and no matter how I tried to make peace it wasn't accepted. I'm not trying to write a book or create a new method of counseling or coaching - I was just posting my opinion (which is what I thought forums were for).
> 
> I haven't seen what was said over there. I would like to understand what the issue was, your viewpoint about it.
> 
> Sometimes peoples opinions will not align. Are you saying that having a menatlity of a non-cheater was not accepted?
> 
> 
> 
> Mulder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway - I look forward to posting my experiences and opinions elsewhere if I am not invited back. As well as posting my questions or concerns about my marriage so that I can continue down the path of improvement.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are mostly corrected, I would advice against doing too much "complaining" or talking about the past. It will be helpful for people to see your position and your method of recovery, if you are willing to give this though.
> 
> I would continue onto a path of a better life if I was you and that includes a good sex life.
> 
> 
> 
> Mulder said:
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone from MMSL is interested in debating why I should or shouldn't have been banned/deleted that is fine - I just hope ya'll understand I am not looking for a fight and I'm not out to prove anyone right or wrong. I am all about working with people toward good relationships - I really don't have any enemies and I hope Athol and company don't think of me as that.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I"m not over there, but MMSL site helped you power out of your hole and own up to your sexuality. I think I need to be over there for a more testosterone loaded man slant.
> 
> 
> 
> Mulder said:
> 
> 
> 
> Peace.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thank you
Click to expand...


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## Mulder

Thanks.

I started out not having a manly father, and no real good manly role-model. My mom was not a good role model for the feminine wife/mother - she desired to be a career woman, had an affair with another married man and left my dad for him (and destroyed the family life that my siblings and I deserved). I really liked girls, but I think I fell into a mode of appeasing women and seeking their approval (probably because I lost my own mom's attention to the dirtbag that is now my step-father).

For 15 years of being married I felt that I was meeting my wife's needs but she was turning me away sexually over and over and over again. After reading a lot of things and posting in forums like this I really feel that I was bending over backward for her and putting her on a pedestal - seeking that approval.....and it was closing her off sexually to me. I was acting alpha in so many ways (my hobbies, my excitement for life, my work) but this area of care-taking and over-doing it was disgusting to her sexuality but she gobbled it up on the surface. She loved me taking care of her and looking after her needs and waiting on her and kissing up to her - who wouldn't? But I now think that a woman is hardwired to want that, but secretly despise it.

Now through forums like this and a couple of other resources, I have learned what it means to really be a MAN. They all have their different takes - I prefer ones that focus on Marriage and staying married and avoiding divorce because I am a Christian guy and I really do want that in my marriage - even though I would behave very non-Christian like when my wife would reject me in the past.

Here is a summary of some of the top things I learned (my opinions only - I'm not claiming to be Yoda ok?):
-If my woman is not being sexual with me it is most likely due to not being attractive enough for some reason.
-I need to be working out, dressing nicer, and acting more alpha to be as attractive as I can be for my wife
-I need to be pursuing her (it is the man's responsibility - we are given the high testosterone and the desire)
-I need to be Outcome Independent (OI) (this is the hardest one for me - when she rejected me in the past it would hurt to my core. I would get very upset) this OI needs to be playful and easy going, I pursue her and my desire for her, I playfully push through resistance, but when I get a hard NO then I back off, and I go do something else MANLY (like workout, or go out with the guys, or work on a project around the house 
-When she says NO to sex, I DO NOT whine, complain, or start into a conversation about why she doesn't want to, I STFU)
-I meet her basic needs (income for the family, when she asks me to do something for her I do it with enthusiasm and asap - provided she isn't using/abusing me, I deal with Head of Household responsibilities)
-I am a man of purpose and conviction (goals, dreams, excitement, passion, hard-work, hobbies, teaching my children, respecting others, generous, not lying/cheating/stealing, etc).
-Women are emotional, feelings all over the place, not rational beings (hey, my take on things ok?) and they need a man to be that oak tree of stability and strength.
-DO NOT engage in trying to explain things and arguing (again STFU!). Women love mental warfare - It will go on and on and if you are not speaking with someone who is being rational/logical, it just makes things worse for everyone, especially because they will remember everything you said wrong!
-Women will ****-test you all-the-time. It is their way of making sure that they are mating with a HIGH-VALUE man. Pass the ****-tests!! It's like the girls poking and prodding you in elementary school!

I have seen improvement. I don't seek her approval - I seek God's approval (although I don't hear God's voice as clearly as I would like to!) I know what it means to be a man and I am working hard at it. I have seen her become more sexual with me (off and on, but I can say that there are baby-steps). And a big thing is that I am conditioned well to not respond to her ****-testing. Also - kisses are MUCH more receptive and enthusiastic (open mouth, playful, etc)

The rest is still under construction. I strongly desire to be sexual with my wife - and I don't like committing myself to a monogamous relationship where my wife can control access to her body...I thought she committed her body to me in our wedding vows! But it turns out that we men have the responsibility to keep that sexlife alive. Don't pout guys - life isn't fair, but this is the truth for most of us!


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## Coffee Amore

This seems like a better fit for the General Forum. Moving the thread.....


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## treyvion

Mulder said:


> Thanks.
> 
> ...........rest deleted.................
> 
> The rest is still under construction. I strongly desire to be sexual with my wife - and I don't like committing myself to a monogamous relationship where my wife can control access to her body...I thought she committed her body to me in our wedding vows! But it turns out that we men have the responsibility to keep that sexlife alive. Don't pout guys - life isn't fair, but this is the truth for most of us!


It's your responsibility that if she's not doing it with you, that you have to take care of your sexlife one way or another.

So there might be nothing wrong and she is perfectly fine for sex, but simply abstains because she know she doesn't HAVE to do anything. It's up to you to make a stipulation for her to be in a relationship with you that she's going to be having sex, no way around it.


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## anchorwatch

Welcome, Mulder, Looks like the new Mod already noticed you. 

And because I just noticed, Congratulations and thank you, CA. 

Bully for you taking such a thankless yet much needed position.


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## Mulder

Coffee Amore said:


> This seems like a better fit for the General Forum. Moving the thread.....


Hi Coffee Amore. I'm happy to be in whatever category you think it fits best. My "general relationship" with my wife is great....my "sex in marriage" sucked and that is what I'm talking about.....how to fix my sex life.

Still a work in progress!


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## Mulder

treyvion said:


> It's your responsibility that if she's not doing it with you, that you have to take care of your sexlife one way or another.
> 
> So there might be nothing wrong and she is perfectly fine for sex, but simply abstains because she know she doesn't HAVE to do anything. It's up to you to make a stipulation for her to be in a relationship with you that she's going to be having sex, no way around it.


There is definitely a conflict in my life regarding that. On one side I am a very driven, success oriented, take what you want out of life guy. On the other side - there is something to be said for self-control and how you handle your selfish desires - especially when it comes to dealing with your spouse in relation to your own personal desires. I'll make sure to post a thread about that, or look for one to engage in.


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## Mulder

anchorwatch said:


> Welcome, Mulder, Looks like the new Mod already noticed you.


Thanks!


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## GTdad

I'm not surprised you were banned, if you deviated from the "gospel" of the site. That seems to be a problem with sites based on a particular book; DivorceBusters and MarriageBuilders are among the worst in this regard.

Often, oddly, it's other posters who are the "zealots" on sticking to scripture, not the authors of the books.


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## Mulder

GTdad said:


> I'm not surprised you were banned, if you deviated from the "gospel" of the site. That seems to be a problem with sites based on a particular book; DivorceBusters and MarriageBuilders are among the worst in this regard.
> 
> Often, oddly, it's other posters who are the "zealots" on sticking to scripture, not the authors of the books.


I honestly don't know exactly why they didn't want to make peace with me. Like I said - I am not trying to be an arse, and I honestly apologized to Athol for possibly saying something he didn't agree with. I feel Private Message is best for those kind of "hey don't post that here....it is contradictory to what we are trying to teach" (that isn't what he or anyone said by the way). Unfortunately it was in the public forum thread that they said my advice was not valid and I said as politely as I could that I felt it was.

Another guy DanG was banned and I am not sure exactly why, but he happened to Private Message me a lot while I was going through my toughest times...he coached me and responded to my messages when I needed it the most. Maybe I was suspected of being somehow attached to him in some way? I don't know. I wish them the best of luck....I have no hard feelings left about it. Just wish I knew exactly what set them off and why they decided not to privately request that I not do that which set them off, and allow me to continue being a poster/member/contributor.

Oh well, I won't be butt-hurt about it....but I do want people to know my side of things.


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## treyvion

Mulder said:


> Hi Coffee Amore. I'm happy to be in whatever category you think it fits best. My "general relationship" with my wife is great....my "sex in marriage" sucked and that is what I'm talking about.....how to fix my sex life.
> 
> Still a work in progress!


For some of us the sex life or lack thereof bleeds into every compartment of life. So your overall perception of life is dimmed when the sex is bad or non-existant.


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## MisterG

Mulder said:


> If anyone from MMSL is interested in debating why I should or shouldn't have been banned/deleted that is fine - I just hope ya'll understand I am not looking for a fight and I'm not out to prove anyone right or wrong.



I used to spend a lot of time on MMSL. I found that my problems were common there, and the success stories were inspiring and very helpful as I worked to turn things around for myself. But there came a point when a lot of people seemed to be getting banned, and it was not clear (to me, at least) why they were getting banned. I completely agree that rules and moderation are necessary in a public forum, but I got the vibe that this was taken to an extreme on MMSL to the point that dissent or different views were not tolerated. I think it caused me to lose interest in the site, and I don't go back much these days. 

Anyway, I went to look at your posts on MMSL and I see everything is gone. Is this the thread that got you banned? 

Desperately need help from computer IT people pretty please? - Married Man Sex Life Forum

I don't want to debate whether you should have been banned (at least not yet ), but I'm curious about what happened there that got you banned. I can only see a bit of what you posted (from when others quoted you). What are some of the details about the point of contention that got you banned?


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## Caribbean Man

GTdad said:


> I'm not surprised you were banned, if you deviated from the "gospel" of the site. That seems to be a problem with sites based on a particular book; DivorceBusters and MarriageBuilders are among the worst in this regard.
> 
> Often, oddly, it's other posters who are the "zealots" on sticking to scripture, not the authors of the books.


That's one of the problems of collectivism in group dynamics.

The one with the loudest mouth leads and usually he/ she / it doesn't even know the way.


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## Mulder

MisterG said:


> I went to look at your posts on MMSL and I see everything is gone. Is this the thread that got you banned?
> 
> Desperately need help from computer IT people pretty please? - Married Man Sex Life Forum
> 
> I don't want to debate whether you should have been banned (at least not yet ), but I'm curious about what happened there that got you banned. I can only see a bit of what you posted (from when others quoted you). What are some of the details about the point of contention that got you banned?


Yep,
The thread was started from a woman who was searching for a way to use technology to snoop on her cheating husband. 

She had posted a thread about 3 months before about her suspicions that he was "flirting" online and I asked if she was sexing him up or not. She revealed that he had several requests of her that indicated he might be more attracted to her if she did.

I feel we men are quite simple - we ask a woman to stop drinking/smoking, dress a little nicer for us, be more affectionate/sexy - then there is really no hidden meaning or mystery. There is her answer to having his sexual exclusivity and captivating his desire!

The latest thread was all about how she could find out if indeed he was cheating.....I brought up the requests of his from the past thread. I believe I said that rather than spending so much time snooping on him, she should spend a lot of time fulfilling his requests if she hopes to keep him around. Moderator Serenity said that I was naive to suggest that she don't snoop. I clarified my position that, of course she should make sure her hubby isn't cheating.... I wasn't saying DON'T.....it was my opinion as a man who WAS in that position of flirting online with other women and seeking the attention I wasn't getting at home, that if MY wife had started acknowledging my needs/desires and actually giving a damn - I would have dropped that cheating behavior in a heartbeat....meaning less need to snoop!

It went back and forth, and I suggested that while the forum moderators had their opinion, my opinion is valid and it can work the other way around - and I am proof. I asked if the forum moderators had any experience as being the cheating spouse. Athol: "That is completely irrelevant. There is quite copious evidence to support MMSL's general effectiveness without demanding we have cheated on our spouses as some sort of validation hoop to jump through.
You don't have to be an arsonist to be a firefighter."

I think I said something to the effect that it WAS relevant and choosing to shut down my "ex-cheater" opinion was like the firefighter ignoring the advice of the ex-arsonist.


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## GettingIt_2

Mulder said:


> Yep,
> The thread was started from a woman who was searching for a way to use technology to snoop on her cheating husband.
> 
> She had posted a thread about 3 months before about her suspicions that he was "flirting" online and I asked if she was sexing him up or not. She revealed that he had several requests of her that indicated he might be more attracted to her if she did.
> 
> I feel we men are quite simple - we ask a woman to stop drinking/smoking, dress a little nicer for us, be more affectionate/sexy - then there is really no hidden meaning or mystery. There is her answer to having his sexual exclusivity and captivating his desire!
> 
> The latest thread was all about how she could find out if indeed he was cheating.....I brought up the requests of his from the past thread. I believe I said that rather than spending so much time snooping on him, she should spend a lot of time fulfilling his requests if she hopes to keep him around. Moderator Serenity said that I was naive to suggest that she don't snoop. I clarified my position that, of course she should make sure her hubby isn't cheating.... I wasn't saying DON'T.....it was my opinion as a man who WAS in that position of flirting online with other women and seeking the attention I wasn't getting at home, that if MY wife had started acknowledging my needs/desires and actually giving a damn - I would have dropped that cheating behavior in a heartbeat....meaning less need to snoop!
> 
> It went back and forth, and I suggested that while the forum moderators had their opinion, my opinion is valid and it can work the other way around - and I am proof. I asked if the forum moderators had any experience as being the cheating spouse. Athol: "That is completely irrelevant. There is quite copious evidence to support MMSL's general effectiveness without demanding we have cheated on our spouses as some sort of validation hoop to jump through.
> You don't have to be an arsonist to be a firefighter."
> 
> I think I said something to the effect that it WAS relevant and choosing to shut down my "ex-cheater" opinion was like the firefighter ignoring the advice of the ex-arsonist.


Mulder, I'm a fan (female) of much of the "theory" behind MMSL; I've defended it here, it helped save my marriage. 

That being said: I sort of see why you got banned for arguing on a pro marriage web site that if a wife would just suck it up and look the other way when her man is straying, he'd stop straying. 

Generally, the advice goes like this: if you aren't getting your needs met, TALK to your spouse. Work on yourself. TALK to your spouse. Make sure you're taking care of yourself. TALK to your spouse. 

Once you start looking outside the marriage (be in on line flirting, and EA, a PA, what have you), you've just lost all rights to any positive progress you might have made by TALKING to your spouse and working on yourself.

If you are ready to start looking outside the marriage, then time to tell your spouse the truth and ask her if she'd prefer you divorce her first. 

Here you have a woman who is worried her husband is cheating: til she puts that to rest in her mind, meeting his needs wont be first on her list. (And yes, she should TALK to him before she goes all PI on him.)

FTR, I'm no huge fan of Kay--just not surprised you got banned now that you described the scenario. Pro marriage forums (including this one) usually don't coddle cheating spouses. 

Anyhoo . . . that being said, I hope you stick around. Success stories can be few and far between here.


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## Mulder

Caribbean Man said:


> That's one of the problems of collectivism in group dynamics.
> 
> The one with the loudest mouth leads and usually he/ she / it doesn't even know the way.


I think the nice thing about a public forum is that generally people can review and read through previous comments by someone and make decisions for themselves whether the person is being an honest opinion, or a quote for truth, or a loud mouth - and then take any future comments with a self-informed slant.

One would hope that the typical loudest mouth wouldn't dominate the conversation in that environment - but a heavy handed moderator can shut down a good debate anyway huh?


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## weightlifter

Lol. I'm banned on surviving infidelity and loveshack for posting how to bust posters cheating wives.

Those sites are great for fake hugs and pity from people but actually harm those who need the closure of knowing if their spouse is cheating.


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## Mulder

Hi GettingIt, I totally see your point. Maybe that is why they felt so strongly about what they think I was meaning....maybe they didn't understand that I was NOT saying to suck it up or turn a blind eye to potential cheating behavior.

The point I was trying to make is that she was spending much more time dwelling on him cheating then trying to be the woman he wants her to be. So it can go one of two ways in my opinion 1) she doesn't spend any time/energy trying to become attractive for her husband and she spends all her time looking for EA or PA to blow up, he doesn't care that she finds out and sees that his wife isn't what he wants and moves on. Or 2) Spends a lot of time attracting him, paying attention to what his needs are within the marriage and becoming the woman he wants, spends appropriately less time with detective work to see if he is distracted by porn, chatting, EA/PA activity and when/if she does find something give him the ultimatum but his wife is a much more appealing alternative than the EA/PA and maybe he even broke whatever it was off by then.

Again, I am not yoda here...that is just my opinion. Because if during the time in my marriage that I was genuinely checking out (because I had expressed my needs/desires so much and got zero back from her) - if she had stepped up and started meeting my needs and working to become desirable to me and wanting to "please her husband" then I would have dropped the chatting with other women in a heartbeat. Fortunately for our marriage I turned away from that behavior and turned to God.

I thought that perspective might be helpful in that context....but again - I don't preach that I'm right - there is no perfect way, and definitely I am pro-marriage NOW even though I was astray and was basically checked-out early in my marriage.


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## soccermom2three

I'm a lurker over there and I remember that thread. I think the point the moderator was trying to make was the cheating needed to be nipped in the bud because if the husband is getting his dopamine hit from the OW, the OP could sex the guy up until the cows come home and it wouldn't change a thing, because he's addicted to the affair. The cheating has to stop before anything can be fixed.


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## MisterG

Mulder said:


> I think I said something to the effect that it WAS relevant and choosing to shut down my "ex-cheater" opinion was like the firefighter ignoring the advice of the ex-arsonist.


I agree that the perspective of a former cheater is probably valuable to understanding what's going on in the cheaters mind and figuring out the most effective way to address it. 

I also agree with *GettingIt* that, on a pro-marriage site, your message might not be well-received.



soccermom2three said:


> I think the point the moderator was trying to make was the cheating needed to be nipped in the bud because if the husband is getting his dopamine hit from the OW, the OP could sex the guy up until the cows come home and it wouldn't change a thing, because he's addicted to the affair. The cheating has to stop before anything can be fixed.


I agree, the cheating needs to be stopped before you can start to repair the marriage. But what do you do first? Do you stop the cheating by gathering evidence and building a case that the cheater can't squirm out of, or do you stop the cheating by trying to fix basic problems in the marriage? I don't know the answer, but I think it would make for an interesting discussion. 

I have not been in this position (either as a cheater or as a cheated-on spouse), so I don't have an opinion on the best way to address it. I do think it would be insightful to read a thread about a cheating spouse with comments and insight from the perspective of a former cheater.


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## GettingIt_2

MisterG said:


> I agree that the perspective of a former cheater is probably valuable to understanding what's going on in the cheaters mind and figuring out the most effective way to address it.


When you say "understanding what is going on in the cheaters mind," what do you mean? I guess I think the only thing that separates an unhappy spouse who doesn't cheat from one who does is that the latter made the decision to cheat. 

Or do you mean that there might be people out there who want to "win" their cheating spouses back, so a cheater's perspective might be important to them? 




MisterG said:


> I agree, the cheating needs to be stopped before you can start to repair the marriage. But what do you do first? Do you stop the cheating by gathering evidence and building a case that the cheater can't squirm out of, or do you stop the cheating by trying to fix basic problems in the marriage? I don't know the answer, but I think it would make for an interesting discussion.


You can't work on a marriage if cheating is ongoing. How could you possibly expect a spouse to work on the marriage with you if you have one foot out the door? Either fully commit to the marriage, or choose the affair partner. Anything else is a waste of time form everyone involved, IMO. 

I'm not someone who gets pleasure out of browbeating someone who cheated--we're all human, people screw up, and I'm in no position to judge circumstances. But when you screw up, _own it._ Own that you could have done something differently, but you didn't. Don't look for ways that _other people could have prevented you from cheating. _ That, to me, is weaker than the cheating itself.


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## GettingIt_2

Mulder said:


> The point I was trying to make is that she was spending much more time dwelling on him cheating then trying to be the woman he wants her to be.


People generally will have difficulty meeting the needs of a spouse they don't trust. It's not worth the emotional investment.


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## Mulder

So anyway - interesting debate. Is there a perfectly right answer? Who's to say? there are pros and cons to both and both are required. 

Chicken before the egg or egg before the chicken. Be attractive first if you want to fix your marriage, or confront the cheating with the possibility that it could blow up because you aren't attractive anymore and you aren't doing a damn thing about it? Maybe there is no perfect answer because it requires both attractive behavior AND confronting cheating and they both need to be done simultaneously? Something to think about, ponder, discuss - but not shut down opinions and tell them that they are naive and that their post is not relevant.

I don't think I should have been banned for bringing it up and debating it, but hey...I'm not running the site.

At the end of the day - I apologized, said I didn't mean to cause trouble, asked to still be permitted on the site (after over a year of postings) and tried to make my peace. That's all a guy can do.


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## Mulder

GettingIt said:


> People generally will have difficulty meeting the needs of a spouse they don't trust. It's not worth the emotional investment.


I agree. which is why I asked the gal if she was willing to blow it up or if she wanted to keep the guy.

Sometimes a spouse is caught cheating, the other spouse who learns of the cheating decides for whatever reason that the cheater would be worth staying with if they are done cheating. If that is the case, they better be attractive enough to hold the attention of the cheating spouse after he has come back - or cheating will probably happen again.

Not condoning it - but sometimes people reason that if their spouse is not meeting the needs of the marriage then they have broken the marriage contract - so in their mind they are justified to break the marriage contract by cheating rather than going out and divorcing.

GettingIt - I think you understand both sides of the argument, and I am sensing that you favor one side over the other....stop the cheating, get the cheater to commit to the marriage and no more cheating, then work on the marriage to make it better. is that right?


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## CarlaRose

Mulder said:


> She had posted a thread about 3 months before about her suspicions that he was "flirting" online and I asked if she was sexing him up or not. She revealed that he had several requests of her that indicated he might be more attracted to her if she did.
> 
> I feel we men are quite simple - we ask a woman to stop drinking/smoking, dress a little nicer for us, be more affectionate/sexy - then there is really no hidden meaning or mystery. There is her answer to having his sexual exclusivity and captivating his desire!
> 
> The latest thread was all about how she could find out if indeed he was cheating.....I brought up the requests of his from the past thread. I believe I said that rather than spending so much time snooping on him, she should spend a lot of time fulfilling his requests if she hopes to keep him around......it was my opinion as a man who WAS in that position of flirting online with other women and seeking the attention I wasn't getting at home, that if MY wife had started acknowledging my needs/desires and actually giving a damn - I would have dropped that cheating behavior in a heartbeat....meaning less need to snoop!


I can understand why you were banned. You took a very narrow and selfish approach to your marriage and sex life as being your wife's purpose to put out to you whenever you wanted her to. She wouldn't give you the sex you wanted, so you sought to cheat, or you did cheat, or whatever.

You spent x amount of time improving yourself, learning to balance your alpha and beta traits, and applying other philosophies, and then came here and reported your sex life improved because of them. 

However, your approach and way of thinking of your wife being the responsible keeper and depriver of the marital bed never changed, and that is essentially what you told that poster - give him the sex he wants, and he won't stray, in so many words. Which is awful advice, contradicts the theories and philosophy of that site, and totally contradicts what you say you, yourself, did that served to get you laid more often.

But you kept arguing your position plus using their own words against them.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Mulder said:


> I agree. which is why I asked the gal if she was willing to blow it up or if she wanted to keep the guy.
> 
> Sometimes a spouse is caught cheating, the other spouse who learns of the cheating decides for whatever reason that the cheater would be worth staying with if they are done cheating. If that is the case, they better be attractive enough to hold the attention of the cheating spouse after he has come back - or cheating will probably happen again.
> 
> Not condoning it - but sometimes people reason that if their spouse is not meeting the needs of the marriage then they have broken the marriage contract - so in their mind they are justified to break the marriage contract by cheating rather than going out and divorcing.
> 
> GettingIt - I think you understand both sides of the argument, and I am sensing that you favor one side over the other....stop the cheating, get the cheater to commit to the marriage and no more cheating, then work on the marriage to make it better. is that right?


Don't misunderstand me--I think cheating is wrong under any circumstances. Cheaters always had the option to be honest, and they chose not to. How they view their mistake in the rear view mirror, however, is perhaps more indicative of character than the fact they cheated in the first place. Putting forth that cheating has ANY place in in arsenal of things folks can do to "improve" their marriage is reprehensible. 

Using cheating, or the threat of cheating, to extract what you consider "attractive" behavior from a spouse is . . . well, emotionally abusive. 

Exacting a change in a spouse's behavior because s/he is operating under the threat of you cheating again is NOT a step forward in intimacy and love, and it's NOT an indication of your improved desirability. From what I understand, most people want genuine desire from a spouse, they want their spouses to WANT to be there--they don't want someone who jumps through hoops to keep their partner from straying. 

A spouse who changes behavior under duress (threat of infidelity) is probably building some serous resentment. A marriage like this, if it survives, is a shell and an illusion.


----------



## COguy

MMSL is pretty popular around here, but nothing is less popular than cheaters and blameshifting. So as much as I agree with your stance on upping your game as a Man, I completely disagree with your comments about how to handle a cheating husband. Had you done it in a post here, we would have had words.

A cheater is a cheater and there's no excuse for it. A woman who spends time flirting with her husband to keep him from cheating has a douche for a husband.


----------



## Blonde

Does your wife know about your cheating and that your attitude is that she have engaged in a competition with slvts for your affection and "love"?

I think you should fully inform her what kind of man she is married to so she can decide if this is what she wants.

To me, that you claim God and come across so arrogant and selfish about YOUR CHOICE to betray vows you made (in front of God?) and to deeply hurt and betray someone you promised to love and cherish (and then blame HER if she is not cheerful and lovey dovey post betrayal) 

I wouldn't stay married to you. You sound like a narcissist. Its all about YOU.


----------



## anchorwatch

Wow?


----------



## MisterG

GettingIt said:


> When you say "understanding what is going on in the cheaters mind," what do you mean? I guess I think the only thing that separates an unhappy spouse who doesn't cheat from one who does is that the latter made the decision to cheat.
> 
> Or do you mean that there might be people out there who want to "win" their cheating spouses back, so a cheater's perspective might be important to them?


I mean that cheating is a serious problem in a relationship. In order to fix a problem (any problem), you usually need to understand how it came about and how it continues to exist. So understanding the mind of a cheater is probably a good way of understanding the problem so that it can be fixed.

When you're the cheated-on person, you have a couple decisions to make. First, do you end the marriage or do you try to fix it? If you end the marriage, it doesn't really matter what the cheater thinks. If you try to fix the marriage, then you need to stop the affair. But _how _do you stop the affair? Do you allow it to continue while you gather evidence to trap the cheater? Do you try to change things in the marriage that you control and that might have been part of the breakdown? Do you expose the affair and try to get the cheater into counseling? A combination of things? Something else? Maybe it depends on the particular situation? I don't have the answer, but I think understanding how a cheater thinks would be helpful in choosing the correct approach. 




GettingIt said:


> You can't work on a marriage if cheating is ongoing. How could you possibly expect a spouse to work on the marriage with you if you have one foot out the door? Either fully commit to the marriage, or choose the affair partner. Anything else is a waste of time form everyone involved, IMO.


You quoted me saying _"I agree, the cheating needs to be stopped before you can start to repair the marriage."_ What are you disagreeing with? :scratchhead:


----------



## Mulder

Hi Carlarose - I see what you are saying and from that perspective it makes total sense. But it wasn't my improving that kept me from leaving her. As a cheater - I was checking out of the marriage and about to leave her.

So if the gal posting was serious about KEEPING the man that she was with, then stopping the cheating is only part of the equation. And my opinion is that if my wife had spent all this time finding out if I was cheating and then blew it up but didn't tell me she was wiling to work out the sexual problems - then I probably would have been out the door anyway.

I think that many men (over here, over there, over everywhere) would say that if their wife wasn't giving them the sex they have communicated that they desire, would be thinking about leaving that woman. So - yeah, I'm saying my wife is the responsible keeper and depriver of the marital bed. Suggesting that giving your man the sex that he wants is not awful advice from my point of view - and it does fit in the MMSL framework from my opinion. After all - if the man STILL isn't getting the sex he wants after phases 1-2-3 then there is Phase 4 and 5 right?


----------



## MisterG

There are a couple distinct issues in this thread. 

The one that I've been posting on is whether it would be helpful to get a former cheater's comments in a thread started by someone dealing with a cheating spouse. I think it would be helpful to the person trying to figure out how they want to proceed. 

Others are posting on the particulars surrounding *Mulder's* cheating and how he handled it. I've stayed away from the CWI sub-forum and I'm avoiding commenting on *Mulder's* personal cheating situation.

That does not mean that I condone cheating (I don't condone it), it means that I don't want to be a part of that discussion. This is a hot-button issue for many people, so please don't read more into my posts than is actually there.


----------



## Mulder

GettingIt - I like your post, it is reasonable to agree that cheating is wrong and the threat of it should never be used to extract results out of your spouse. Also as a cheated on spouse - if you were working under the threat of your spouse cheating and it had you dancing to keep him/her from cheating - it definitely would build resentment and emotional scars.

COGuy - I agree, cheating is reprehensible. I also think sex starving your husband is reprehensible - let the one with no sin cast the first stone so to speak. If a woman decides (for any plethora of reasons) that she wants to attract her husband so he doesn't leave and stops cheating, yeah that man is a douche, but don't we all know someone who is in a relationship and you can't see why they would want to be with that person? My opinion is only for the woman that wants to pull her husband out of that pit of despair and turn his eyes toward her rather than blow up the marriage and send him on his way (blowing up the marriage and sending him on his way is probably the more popular suggestion though). By the way - you don't have to threaten to have words with me - I'm a fighter too so it just excites me, but let all your words out anyway...I enjoy this debate and the emotion it is bringing out and hopefully we can all be friends and in the end help someone in their marriage. 

Blonde - Don't we all start out in a competition for our mate's love?Yes, I told her about everything. My circumstances were different. I became a christian somewhere in the middle of it happening and turned away from that awful behavior. But during it I had ALWAYS hoped and prayed that my wife would show me some attention and be my sexual partner. I am so much not a narcissist - probably more of what you would characterize as a beta caretaker....I doted on my wife night and day....I was the epitome of the perfect husband. Success, Looks, Talent, Friends, Hobbies, and I bent over backward for my wife....buying her things, taking her on trips, tons of non-sexual affection, trying as hard as I could to be seductive and sexual with her. Actually if I were more of an a$$hole I probably would have got laid more often. But that is a tough pill to swallow, for men....the logic just isn't there. But that was my problem. Good husbandry should = Good sex. It doesn't. Sometimes it just equals comfortable wife who owns/controls her husband. Maybe she shouldn't have stayed married to me? I definitely would have found another woman so it wasn't any skin off my back. I wanted to make it work...I told her what I wanted....she could decide to give me what I want in marriage or not right?

I think if everyone can get through the awful emotion that comes up when you think about a cheater - then you can see that the cheater has feelings too (crazy i know). They just didn't handle their feelings in an appropriate way. Stay or leave is up to you - but if you want to stay then blowing up their cheating is only one of the two things required...you need to meet your spouse's needs.


----------



## COguy

Mulder said:


> COGuy - I agree, cheating is reprehensible. I also think sex starving your husband is reprehensible - let the one with no sin cast the first stone so to speak. If a woman decides (for any plethora of reasons) that she wants to attract her husband so he doesn't leave and stops cheating, yeah that man is a douche, but don't we all know someone who is in a relationship and you can't see why they would want to be with that person? My opinion is only for the woman that wants to pull her husband out of that pit of despair and turn his eyes toward her rather than blow up the marriage and send him on his way (blowing up the marriage and sending him on his way is probably the more popular suggestion though).


I don't see the point in debating it, it sounds like we have a fundamental difference in opinion. Sex starving bad, cheating worse. Because the person being sex starved has the option to end the marriage and get what they want without having to betray their spouse and/or act deceitfully in doing so. Cheating is cake eating. It's the easy, selfish way of getting what you want, without the gonads to do the right thing and be honest.

My advice to a woman in this situation would not be to fight for your husband. That only feeds into the notion that someone who's a cheater deserves MORE cake. My advice to that woman is up your self-respect and get with a man who won't cheat on you period. There's plenty of us. 

What you're suggesting is codependency. Do something the right way to keep your spouse from doing something wrong. If a guy is lousy enough to cheat on you if you aren't doing X, Y or Z, he's not worth keeping.


----------



## GettingIt_2

MisterG said:


> You quoted me saying _"I agree, the cheating needs to be stopped before you can start to repair the marriage."_ What are you disagreeing with? :scratchhead:


In a previous post you said, "I don't know the answer, but I think it would make for an interesting discussion." 

So I wasn't disagreeing--I was discussing!

You didn't put forth much of an opinion of your own (you just sort of agreed with everybody and said you didn't know the answer) so there really wasn't much to agree or disagree with in your post!


----------



## chillymorn

COguy said:


> I don't see the point in debating it, it sounds like we have a fundamental difference in opinion. Sex starving bad, cheating worse. Because the person being sex starved has the option to end the marriage and get what they want without having to betray their spouse and/or act deceitfully in doing so. Cheating is cake eating. It's the easy, selfish way of getting what you want, without the gonads to do the right thing and be honest.
> 
> My advice to a woman in this situation would not be to fight for your husband. That only feeds into the notion that someone who's a cheater deserves MORE cake. My advice to that woman is up your self-respect and get with a man who won't cheat on you period. There's plenty of us.


which came first the chicken or the egg?


----------



## Mulder

anchorwatch said:


> Wow?


I know huh? This sort of topic brings out heavy emotion. I can now see why some might want to shut it down...but if everyone can keep their head cool about it - we might help others that come into that situation.

My advice to the person in the thread might have been contradictory to that of the moderators or author....however who's to say (if she is genuinely interested in staying married to this man and working it out) that her snooping and blowing up the FB chatting and such wouldn't just blow up the marriage as well? I just thought that was an important point of view to consider.

I am gathering that Blonde would just blow it up, and that is fine for her. There is no right answer here.

But everyone needs grace. Cheaters, Ex-Cheaters, spouses that choose to stay with cheaters, women who starve their husbands sexually, etc. We all need grace.


----------



## GettingIt_2

COguy said:


> My advice to a woman in this situation would not be to fight for your husband. That only feeds into the notion that someone who's a cheater deserves MORE cake. My advice to that woman is up your self-respect and get with a man who won't cheat on you period. There's plenty of us.
> 
> What you're suggesting is codependency. Do something the right way to keep your spouse from doing something wrong. If a guy is lousy enough to cheat on you if you aren't doing X, Y or Z, he's not worth keeping.


I was about to compose another reply, but this sums up fairly well what I was going to write. 

Once a spouse cheats, it's not worth trying to "win" them back. Do what you have to do to confirm the infidelity, tell your spouse you know about the cheating, see a lawyer and start to pull things together to file for divorce. 

At that point, if the cheating spouse WANTS to reverse things and work on the marriage, it's incumbent on the cheater to find out if there is ANYTHING he can do to keep the marriage intact. At this point, the betrayed spouse might say yes, here is what you must do to rebuild trust (end the affair, commit to complete transparency and loss of any rights to privacy, attend MC, what ever). Or the betrayed spouse might say, no, I can't live with a cheater and proceed with the divorce. 

It's really not until _after the affair has been ended and the trust has be rebuilt_ that working on the underlying issues that the cheater feels contributed to his path to infidelity can begin productively. 

If you cheat, you can't expect to jump back into the arms of a ready and willing spouse. Pay the price for your actions FIRST, and then if your lucky and you earn forgiveness, maybe, just maybe, you can have a do-over with working on getting your needs met in your marriage.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Mulder said:


> But everyone needs grace. Cheaters, Ex-Cheaters, spouses that choose to stay with cheaters, women who starve their husbands sexually, etc. We all need grace.


I, too, am a huge believer in grace; however, grace is earned through accountability and remorse for our mistakes. You can't enjoy grace if you refuse to accept full responsibility for your actions.


----------



## Personal

Mulder said:


> I am so much not a narcissist - probably more of what you would characterize as a beta caretaker....I doted on my wife night and day....I was the epitome of the perfect husband. Success, Looks, Talent, Friends, Hobbies, and I bent over backward for my wife.


Perfect.


----------



## Mulder

COguy said:


> I don't see the point in debating it, it sounds like we have a fundamental difference in opinion. Sex starving bad, cheating worse. Because the person being sex starved has the option to end the marriage and get what they want without having to betray their spouse and/or act deceitfully in doing so. Cheating is cake eating. It's the easy, selfish way of getting what you want, without the gonads to do the right thing and be honest.
> 
> My advice to a woman in this situation would not be to fight for your husband. That only feeds into the notion that someone who's a cheater deserves MORE cake. My advice to that woman is up your self-respect and get with a man who won't cheat on you period. There's plenty of us.
> 
> What you're suggesting is codependency. Do something the right way to keep your spouse from doing something wrong. If a guy is lousy enough to cheat on you if you aren't doing X, Y or Z, he's not worth keeping.


I agree with you. Your suggestion is for the spouse that doesn't want to remain married to the cheater. Mine is for the spouse that wants to win the cheater back and keep the relationship....also it is not the ONLY way, just was an opinion.


----------



## Mulder

GettingIt said:


> At that point, if the cheating spouse WANTS to reverse things and work on the marriage, it's incumbent on the cheater to find out if there is ANYTHING he can do to keep the marriage intact. At this point, the betrayed spouse might say yes, here is what you must do to rebuild trust (end the affair, commit to complete transparency and loss of any rights to privacy, attend MC, what ever). Or the betrayed spouse might say, no, I can't live with a cheater and proceed with the divorce.
> 
> It's really not until _after the affair has been ended and the trust has be rebuilt_ that working on the underlying issues that the cheater feels contributed to his path to infidelity can begin productively.
> 
> If you cheat, you can't expect to jump back into the arms of a ready and willing spouse. Pay the price for your actions FIRST, and then if your lucky and you earn forgiveness, maybe, just maybe, you can have a do-over with working on getting your needs met in your marriage.


I agree with most of what you said - but it seems that would be if the cheater is on board with staying in the marriage. However, what if the cheater was already checked out, thinking about divorce. After blowing up the affair(s) they might just be done with the marriage anyway right?

In my case I was much higher SR (MMSL term) but there were some hangups around sex that were not normal and although I asked for us to look into it together she refused and subsequently just shut down the sex. I thought I was done. When I decided to come back I WAS jumping back into the arms of a ready and willing spouse. Yes there were and will be trust issues due to my cheating - but mine are easier to overcome because it was just flirting/chatting which it sounds like the EXACT situation of the gal I was advising at MMSL - she seemed to want him to stay in the marriage.

Anyway - I think you see my points gettingit. No exactly right or exactly wrong way to go about it. People will come to their own conclusions about what they want to do in marriage whether it is cheating or anything else.....it's good to hear everyone's point of view and not shut them down just because it is disagreeable to some readers right?


----------



## GettingIt_2

Mulder said:


> I agree with you. Your suggestion is for the spouse that doesn't want to remain married to the cheater. Mine is for the spouse that wants to win the cheater back and keep the relationship....also it is not the ONLY way, just was an opinion.


You don't ever "train" a cheater to think that cheating is an effective way to make changes in a marriage by letting them think you want to "win" them back. 

If you feel like you have to "win" your cheating spouse back, you need to get yourself into IC and learn how to set boundaries and demand respect for yourself and your marriage. 

Anyone who cheats and then turns to a spouse with the expectation of, "NOW she's leaned a lesson, maybe THIS will teach her to meet my needs" is, in no way, deserving of sympathy or grace. 

Using threats to control your spouses behavior--be it threat of infidelity or no sex--is wrong. If you feel you can no longer meet your spouses needs or stay faithful, the only honest thing to do is to communicate with your spouse and figure out if he or she wishes to remain in the marriage.


----------



## Personal

Mulder said:


> Your suggestion is for the spouse that doesn't want to remain married to the cheater. Mine is for the spouse that wants to win the cheater back and keep the relationship.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

There's no dignity in prostrating oneself to a cheater in order to win them back.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Mulder said:


> In my case I was much higher SR (MMSL term) but there were some hangups around sex that were not normal and although I asked for us to look into it together she refused and subsequently just shut down the sex. I thought I was done. When I decided to come back I WAS jumping back into the arms of a ready and willing spouse. Yes there were and will be trust issues due to my cheating - but mine are easier to overcome because it was just flirting/chatting which it sounds like the EXACT situation of the gal I was advising at MMSL - she seemed to want him to stay in the marriage.


So your wife jumped back into your arms out of fear, not attraction or desire, and that's okay with you? :scratchhead:

Most men wouldn't be able to get off that hamster wheel, but if you're okay with it . . . *shrug* 

My guess is that your marital problems have been changed, not fixed. You might be the one handing out grace next time around.


----------



## Mulder

GettingIt said:


> You don't ever "train" a cheater to think that cheating is an effective way to make changes in a marriage by letting them think you want to "win" them back.
> 
> If you feel like you have to "win" your cheating spouse back, you need to get yourself into IC and learn how to set boundaries and demand respect for yourself and your marriage.
> 
> Anyone who cheats and then turns to a spouse with the expectation of, "NOW she's leaned a lesson, maybe THIS will teach her to meet my needs" is, in no way, deserving of sympathy or grace.
> 
> Using threats to control your spouses behavior--be it threat of infidelity or no sex--is wrong. If you feel you can no longer meet your spouses needs or stay faithful, the only honest thing to do is to communicate with your spouse and figure out if he or she wishes to remain in the marriage.


I think this is where there is misunderstanding, I am in no way saying or suggesting that someone cheats in order to change the spouse. Someone who has gone outside of their marriage looking for things that they thought the marriage was supposed to provide is no Longer participating in the marriage, they are actively looking for their way out.

Regarding whether someone needs to see a counselor if they feel the need to win their cheating spouse back, There's no way I could disagree with you, but to some people winning their spouse back is more important than blowing up the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mulder

GettingIt said:


> So your wife jumped back into your arms out of fear, not attraction or desire, and that's okay with you? :scratchhead:
> .


Incorrect assumption. You are welcome to ask me about how it went down, but making statements like that assume you know the gory details.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CarlaRose

He was banned from one site for his opinion and advice, so he came here, where there are no such rules, to be able to argue with with people over the same opinion and advice.

Congratulations for finally succeeding on your insistence to drag people into this silly argument.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Mulder said:


> Incorrect assumption. You are welcome to ask me about how it went down, but making statements like that assume you know the gory details.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


So what you are suggesting as a means to win back a cheater is not reflective of what happened in your marriage? Fair enough. And I would be interested in your story, if you are up for a share. But I still might come to the same conclusion! 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mulder

CarlaRose said:


> He was banned from one site for his opinion and advice, so he came here, where there are no such rules, to be able to argue with with people over the same opinion and advice.
> Congratulations for finally succeeding on your insistence to drag people into this silly argument.


I don't mean to argue with anyone. I only want to voice MY opinion. I hope you can see in all my posts that I am not claiming MY opinion as right for you. I do think that shutting down conversations when you don't agree with someone's opinion (so long as they aren't demanding that their opinion is the only way and truth) shouldn't be done....but again - that is just MY opinion.

Can you be at peace knowing that you have things settled in your life and you don't need listen to my opinion - or do you feel the need to shut it down altogether?

I bet we could all get a long if everyone was able to have their own opinions and people would be secure in themselves to know that they have come to the best decisions for themselves, and don't get unraveled when someone has an opinion opposite theirs.

Peace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mulder

GettingIt said:


> So what you are suggesting as a means to win back a cheater is not reflective of what happened in your marriage? Fair enough. And I would be interested in your story, if you are up for a share. But I still might come to the same conclusion!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Haha - you might!  the good in all of this is that we are together nearly 20 years later. We have been very blessed in our life and while things are never perfect - they are pretty darn good. Marriage intact. Ill probably share my story in another thread...I opened this one to suggest that ex-bad people have real world advice to give that can be learned from....it shouldn't be shut down, it should be posted as a message - whether that's a warning, or advice is up to the person that is looking for insight (good, bad, or ugly!)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Emerald

chillymorn said:


> which came first the chicken or the egg?


The chicken.

https://screen.yahoo.com/louis-monologue-061239778.html


----------



## GettingIt_2

Mulder said:


> Haha - you might!  the good in all of this is that we are together nearly 20 years later. We have been very blessed in our life and while things are never perfect - they are pretty darn good. Marriage intact. Ill probably share my story in another thread...I opened this one to suggest that ex-bad people have real world advice to give that can be learned from....it shouldn't be shut down, it should be posted as a message - whether that's a warning, or advice is up to the person that is looking for insight (good, bad, or ugly!)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You could have given the same advice without cheating. 

There are plenty of men (and women) here on TAM struggling with unsatisfying sex lives like you did. They are hurting, worn down, worn out, and at the end of their ropes with trying to communicate with their spouses. Some have checked out emotionally and are struggling with feeling vulnerable to having an affair. They have the same insights, advice, and warnings that you have, but they still have the choice to never have to call themselves an "ex bad guy." Those are the guys that saved my marriage.


----------



## Blonde

You never said. Did you tell your wife you cheated?



Mulder said:


> I am gathering that Blonde would just blow it up, and that is fine for her. There is no right answer here.


Hindsight is 20/20. What I have learned in 32 years of M to a churchgoing, seminary graduate, former missionary is that if they cheat once they will do it again.

1990 ONS with a prostitute on the mission field

2008 affair with co-worker with massive deception

I remain married to him but I have many years invested at this point.

We have 8 children together, 3 married, one engaged, plus a 19yod, 16yod, 14yos, 11yos.

My advice to my children, very strong impassioned advice based on decades of personal experience is "if someone you are married to ever cheats on you ONCE, walk away and don't look back." 

Having seen my pain and sadness, I expect they will heed my advice.

Fraid I just don't hear in your posts that you have any remorse for the way you hurt and betrayed someone you profess to love.

Did you tell her you cheated?


----------



## Lyris

To be honest, no-one is going to welcome an unrepentant cheater here


----------



## Forest

Blonde said:


> Does your wife know about your cheating...
> 
> I wouldn't stay married to you. You sound like a narcissist. Its all about YOU.


Anyone remember this old Jaggerz (Donnie Iris) song:



Hey girl, I bet you
There's someone out to get you
You'll find him anywhere
On a bus, in a bar, in a grocery store

He'll say, "Excuse me
Haven't I seen you somewhere before?"

Rap, rap, rap
They call him the Rapper
Rap, rap, rap
You know what he's after

So, he starts his rappin'
Hopin' something will happen
He'll say he needs you
A companion, a girl he can talk to

He's made up his mind
He needs someone to sock it to....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fYV3dJp-k4


----------



## Mulder

Mulder said:


> GettingIt - I like your post, it is reasonable to agree that cheating is wrong and the threat of it should never be used to extract results out of your spouse. Also as a cheated on spouse - if you were working under the threat of your spouse cheating and it had you dancing to keep him/her from cheating - it definitely would build resentment and emotional scars.
> 
> COGuy - I agree, cheating is reprehensible. I also think sex starving your husband is reprehensible - let the one with no sin cast the first stone so to speak. If a woman decides (for any plethora of reasons) that she wants to attract her husband so he doesn't leave and stops cheating, yeah that man is a douche, but don't we all know someone who is in a relationship and you can't see why they would want to be with that person? My opinion is only for the woman that wants to pull her husband out of that pit of despair and turn his eyes toward her rather than blow up the marriage and send him on his way (blowing up the marriage and sending him on his way is probably the more popular suggestion though). By the way - you don't have to threaten to have words with me - I'm a fighter too so it just excites me, but let all your words out anyway...I enjoy this debate and the emotion it is bringing out and hopefully we can all be friends and in the end help someone in their marriage.
> 
> Blonde - Don't we all start out in a competition for our mate's love?Yes, I told her about everything. My circumstances were different. I became a christian somewhere in the middle of it happening and turned away from that awful behavior. But during it I had ALWAYS hoped and prayed that my wife would show me some attention and be my sexual partner. I am so much not a narcissist - probably more of what you would characterize as a beta caretaker....I doted on my wife night and day....I was the epitome of the perfect husband. Success, Looks, Talent, Friends, Hobbies, and I bent over backward for my wife....buying her things, taking her on trips, tons of non-sexual affection, trying as hard as I could to be seductive and sexual with her. Actually if I were more of an a$$hole I probably would have got laid more often. But that is a tough pill to swallow, for men....the logic just isn't there. But that was my problem. Good husbandry should = Good sex. It doesn't. Sometimes it just equals comfortable wife who owns/controls her husband. Maybe she shouldn't have stayed married to me? I definitely would have found another woman so it wasn't any skin off my back. I wanted to make it work...I told her what I wanted....she could decide to give me what I want in marriage or not right?
> 
> I think if everyone can get through the awful emotion that comes up when you think about a cheater - then you can see that the cheater has feelings too (crazy i know). They just didn't handle their feelings in an appropriate way. Stay or leave is up to you - but if you want to stay then blowing up their cheating is only one of the two things required...you need to meet your spouse's needs.


Yes Blonde - I did tell her, I did answer your question in this (above) previous post. But everyones experience is different - and I KNOW it is hard not to project your own experience into this thread...but I am not a serial cheater, I was internet chatting with some girls, never took it to the next level, and when I came clean and decided I wanted to work on my marriage I never looked back. The thing is that I was on the verge of divorcing my wife over her attitudes and action toward sex in our marriage. If my wife came to me and said that she found out about my "cheating" and wasn't focusing on becoming the woman that I wanted in my marriage - then I would have just finalized my divorce plans.

Anyway - sorry that you have been through what you have. I'm sure it provides insight into your opinions and posts here, as it should, since a forum is about a bunch of peoples opinions and good opinions make the cut and bad opinions don't - but the conversation shouldn't be shut down (which is my point in creating this thread and why I shouldn't have been banned for just having an opinion that some don't agree with)


----------



## Mulder

Lyris said:


> To be honest, no-one is going to welcome an unrepentant cheater here


So you are saying I am welcome here since I am a repentant cheater? Thank you!


----------



## Mulder

Since this thread has been hijacked so many different ways - I want to point out that it is mainly about being banned for posting my opinion on a forum (MMSL) which was based on experiences that the other posters didn't have and so I felt it was valid and had merit to belong in the conversation - rather than shutting my opinions down and banning me.

This thread is not about whether cheating in any form is right or wrong, and it is not meant to be a thread for people who have been cheated on to vilify and bash an ex-cheater. (btw - in case you missed it - I am a repentant, forgiven, ex-cheater and haven't repeated my cheating in 17 years, but I think my opinions can be important and possibly helpful to people in that situation).

Thanks!


----------



## Blonde

Mulder said:


> Your suggestion is for the spouse that doesn't want to remain married to the cheater. Mine is for the spouse that wants to win the cheater back and keep the relationship....


Cough cough, choke choke.

IMO the CHEATER needs to win the BS back!!!!!!!!

To me, your reversal of that says "unremorseful" and IMO your wife is a fool to be with you at this point. She should cut her losses and get out while she is young and has a lot of years to enjoy someone who is faithful and doesn't have an entitled victim mentality about their own character defects and scummy behavior.

No second chances. That is what I tell my children and that is what I would tell your wife if she was here.

But in a few more posts you can get in the private forum and be a cheerleader for Mrs Steve K since SteveK is a betrayed husband who shares your view that he needs to "win her back" from the POSOM


----------



## Mulder

Blonde said:


> Cough cough, choke choke.
> 
> IMO the CHEATER needs to win the BS back!!!!!!!!
> 
> To me, your reversal of that says "unremorseful" and IMO your wife is a fool to be with you at this point. She should cut her losses and get out while she is young and has a lot of years to enjoy someone who is faithful and doesn't have an entitled victim mentality about their own character defects and scummy behavior.
> 
> No second chances. That is what I tell my children and that is what I would tell your wife if she was here.
> 
> But in a few more posts you can get in the private forum and be a cheerleader for Mrs Steve K since SteveK is a betrayed husband who shares your view that he needs to "win her back" from the POSOM


I understand you have a different point of view. Spitting the drink out of your nose while you read my posts and regurgitating it on this thread only makes you look messy.
I can see the resentment you have in your posts, it is very sad and I wish the best for you. For my wife and I - we have had nearly 20 faithful years since things weren't well in our marriage, and I've given back every bit and more than I might have taken during that awful period. Ive said my sorry, ive made my peace. Painting me out to be a bad guy isn't helpful to this discussion ok?

Peace!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Blonde

I'm not resentful.

Just sharing my opinion Mulder. 

You have your opinion and I have mine. 

SteveK strikes me as a very weak and codependent man to believe bovine manure (like you are shovelling here) about having to "win back" and "nice" his WW.

As for ME, I reject weak and codependent and fawning over someone who claims God while following his penis around.

Why don't you invite your wife to post??? I'm very curious what she thinks of your contention that she should have competed with slvts and kissed your errr..... better than the slvts to "win" you


----------



## Mulder

Blonde said:


> I'm not resentful.
> Just sharing my opinion Mulder.
> You have your opinion and I have mine.
> SteveK strikes me as a very weak and codependent man to believe bovine manure (like you are shovelling here) about having to "win back" and "nice" his WW.


Well, you sure sound resentful to me, and not very secure in your own opinion to allow for me to have mine without resorting to high-school style put downs.

Unfortunately you have mischaracterized my point of view (on my own thread mind you) every time you post - so I will restate it one more time for you and then please be on your way or contribute in a meaningful way to the thread ok?

Say a woman has neglected her husband and her duties in a marriage, and a husband communicates what he claimed as a deal-breaker for a marriage for her to stop that neglecting, but having no result from her to work on that neglect falls into temptation of internet chatting. Should the woman find out about the cheating - she has 2 options: 1) leave him (which it sounds like you are a fan of and I have no argument against that option), or 2) should she desire for whatever reason to stay with him, she should probably work on the things he communicated upfront, and if she tries to confront the cheating BEFORE starting to work on the things she was neglecting in the marriage it COULD end up in him just leaving because she isn't a good alternative.

That is how it was in my marriage. I was on my way out. If my wife had started to work on our issues, or communicated that she wanted to - then I would have dropped my internet chatting and plans for divorce in a heartbeat. I should never have cheated, I should have just filed for divorce - yet maybe me staying in the relationship longer bought us more time (who's to say).

That isn't how it went down though. She never started working on her issues first.



Blonde said:


> As for ME, I reject weak and codependent and fawning over someone who claims God while following his penis around.


I never claimed God while following my penis around. I was following my penis around without God, when I was introduced to God I stopped following my penis around. Sounds like your husband claimed God, but didn't have God - more like social pressures to say he was religious and do religious things rather than do it on his own recognizance.



Blonde said:


> Hindsight is 20/20. What I have learned in 32 years of M to a churchgoing, seminary graduate, former missionary is that if they cheat once they will do it again.
> 
> 1990 ONS with a prostitute on the mission field
> 
> 2008 affair with co-worker with massive deception
> 
> I remain married to him but I have many years invested at this point.
> 
> We have 8 children together, 3 married, one engaged, plus a 19yod, 16yod, 14yos, 11yos.
> 
> My advice to my children, very strong impassioned advice based on decades of personal experience is "if someone you are married to ever cheats on you ONCE, walk away and don't look back."


Maybe it is debatable which is worse - a woman who makes the same mistake twice and doesn't follow her own advice? Or a woman who might see that she had a part in driving her man away and chose to work hard and rebuild the marriage.


----------



## Blonde

> That isn't how it went down though. She never started working on her issues first.


So here you are preaching that BS should "win back" WS and that is not how it went down in your M.

Where is your W? Seriously, you scare me. My H cheated in 1990 and AGAIN in 2008. Fraid you are of the same cloth as him and I want to speak to your W.


----------



## Mulder

Blonde said:


> So here you are preaching that BS should "win back" WS and that is not how it went down in your M.
> 
> Where is your W? Seriously, you scare me. My H cheated in 1990 and AGAIN in 2008. Fraid you are of the same cloth as him and I want to speak to your W.


Calm down woman. You are just making yourself look bad.

I said as clearly as I thought I could - that IF my wife HAD started to work on our issues, or communicated that she wanted to - then I would have dropped my internet chatting and plans for divorce in a heartbeat.

So if a woman WANTS her husband - then this is something to consider. Otherwise she can just take the advice that you are giving out (but that you aren't willing to follow).

I have only cheated that one time - internet chatting, no prostitute, no sex, no big relationship - just internet chatting. I stopped and I haven't looked back in nearly 20 years. If my wife stops being wifely then I will communicate with her, and then divorce if I felt the need to rather than cheating.

I'm starting to feel stalked by you Blonde.


----------



## Blonde

Mulder said:


> WSounds like your husband claimed God, but didn't have God - more like social pressures to say he was religious and do religious things rather than do it on his own recognizance (LDS?).


Nope, Evangelical Christian.

He was a professor at several Christian colleges where you might want to reconsider sending your daughters....



Mulder said:


> Maybe it is debatable which is worse - a woman who makes the same mistake twice and doesn't follow her own advice? Or a woman who might see that she had a part in driving her man away and chose to work hard and rebuild the marriage.


In 1990 I had three very young children under 6 and I still believed the party line that "christianity" is transformational and "forgiveness" is good.

I still consider myself a Christian but I have no use for "church" and think the whole thing is seriously broken when a "church" man like yourself can rationalize and self justify any of his behavior by blaming someone he made vows to in front of God.

No, I don't resent my H but I am deeply cynical about his "faith". DEEPLY cynical. And your W should be too based on your "preaching"


----------



## Blonde

Mulder said:


> Calm down woman. You are just making yourself look bad.


look in the mirror dude

you make God and christianity look bad

Where is your W? I want to talk to her.


----------



## Blonde

Mulder said:


> So if a woman WANTS her husband - then this is something to consider. Otherwise she can just take the advice that you are giving out (but that you aren't willing to follow).


My advice is get out the first time when you are young and can start over.

Unfortunately it is too late for ME to follow this advice. Hindsight is 20/20

But maybe I can spare others- such as YOUR wife- from making the same mistake

Since you feel stalked, I'll unsubscribe. Let me know when she joins though. I want to talk with her.


----------



## Mulder

its too bad I'm not communicating in a way that you understand me. I wasn't a christian man while I was cheating. I became a christian and then turned away from my cheating. But even christians make mistakes - so I am not preaching...I'm just answering your questions.

I don't agree that I am making christianity look bad. It was a good thing that I found God and turned away from cheating. I think that shows that God can bring positive changes in a marriage...but you know - we are all still human and destined to make mistakes....God is merciful and that is a good thing...since we all need mercy. None of us is perfect. 

Blonde - I really am sorry you had to go through that. But you know - it is never to late to take your own advice...it does't have a spoil-date. You can choose to tell your husband that you believe he is a serial cheater and he will do it again so you want to leave him and find someone who would never ever leave you. Or you can show him the grace and mercy that God shows us, and recognize he isn't perfect, and try be the best wife you can be. Your decision. No one will give you a hard time for choosing either one.


----------



## Marduk

From a guy that's been cheated on...

There are all kinds of cheaters. There are those that just cheat and rationalize it after the fact. There are those that cheat because they're not getting what they want/need and don't have the guts to end the relationship for it. There are those that cheat as a reason to leave. There are those that cheat to reduce themselves to the same perceived level as the spouse they are with so they can stay with them. 

And I'm sure there's a million reasons more.

As one that has been betrayed, I can see how MY behaviour aided her having the affair(s). In no way do I assign blame to myself, but I do see how my actions and inactions nudged her along the way.

It took me a long time to forgive her for the affair, even years after we were divorced. It took me even longer to face up to my actions in my first marriage.

Again, in no way do I put blame on those betrayed for being betrayed. Relationships are complex, and there are things you can do to up your odds, and reduce your odds. These things don't take responsibility from the cheating spouse, but it's also part of seeing the whole relationship, not just one side of it.

Like it or lump it, justified or not, a lack of affection, respect, intimacy, or sex can drive your spouse into the arms of another person. You may be completely justified for withdrawing this affection, but you should also know that it can increase the possibility of a negative outcome for everyone.

I'm hoping that was his point.


----------



## GettingIt_2

marduk said:


> From a guy that's been cheated on...
> 
> There are all kinds of cheaters. There are those that just cheat and rationalize it after the fact. There are those that cheat because they're not getting what they want/need and don't have the guts to end the relationship for it. There are those that cheat as a reason to leave. There are those that cheat to reduce themselves to the same perceived level as the spouse they are with so they can stay with them.
> 
> And I'm sure there's a million reasons more.
> 
> As one that has been betrayed, I can see how MY behaviour aided her having the affair(s). In no way do I assign blame to myself, but I do see how my actions and inactions nudged her along the way.
> 
> It took me a long time to forgive her for the affair, even years after we were divorced. It took me even longer to face up to my actions in my first marriage.
> 
> Again, in no way do I put blame on those betrayed for being betrayed. Relationships are complex, and there are things you can do to up your odds, and reduce your odds. These things don't take responsibility from the cheating spouse, but it's also part of seeing the whole relationship, not just one side of it.
> 
> Like it or lump it, justified or not, a lack of affection, respect, intimacy, or sex can drive your spouse into the arms of another person. You may be completely justified for withdrawing this affection, but you should also know that it can increase the possibility of a negative outcome for everyone.
> 
> *I'm hoping that was his point.*


I'm thinking it probably was. 

Here is the thing, though: if you plow right past the part of the reconciliation process in which the cheater

1.ends the affair/cheating activity

2. takes full responsibility for blowing up the marriage and damaging trust very, very deeply

3. acknowledges his dishonesty and failure to address his pain productively (i.e. inform his wife he's filing for divorce when efforts to communicate about the problem fail to yield results)

4. agrees to adhere to steps the betrayed spouse requires in order to rebuild trust (e.g. deleting social media accounts, handing over passwords, accounting for time not spent with spouse)

then it's hard to even talk about what the betrayed spouse needs to do to address the issues that "drove" the cheater to cheat. 

First things first when reconciling: infidelity and all fall out from it. 

Mulder gives lip service to the above--and I do think he thinks all those things are valid--but around here you better make it dang clear that you know what it means to be a repentant cheating spouse BEFORE you even broach the topic of the BS's duties to the marriage. 

At the bottom of all of this, Mulder is right. Weak intimacy in a marriage leads that marriage vulnerable to infidelity. But that can be discussed (and often is, in SIM) in ways that don't trigger folks.

Mulder, whether its intentional or not, you ARE triggering folks, and that's why you end up going round and round.


----------



## Mulder

marduk said:


> I'm hoping that was his point.


Yep it was, after I was attacked for being a recovered cheater. 

Mostly my point of this thread was to say - I shouldn't have been banned at MMSL for having an opinion. If the moderators and Author have good argument against my opinion and for their opinion then theirs will be the good advice people hopefully listen to. However to say that my advice is naive, or irrelevant, and then subsequently ban me (not just temporarily mind you, permanently!) I think is just shutting down conversation.

I think people from all walks of life bring experience to the table that can and should be heard. Good, Bad, and Ugly. That is the point of these kinds of forums (I thought).



GettingIt said:


> I'm thinking it probably was.
> 
> Here is the thing, though: if you plow right past the part of the reconciliation process in which the cheater
> 
> 1.ends the affair/cheating activity
> 
> 2. takes full responsibility for blowing up the marriage and damaging trust very, very deeply
> 
> 3. acknowledges his dishonesty and failure to address his pain productively (i.e. inform his wife he's filing for divorce when efforts to communicate about the problem fail to yield results)
> 
> 4. agrees to adhere to steps the betrayed spouse requires in order to rebuild trust (e.g. deleting social media accounts, handing over passwords, accounting for time not spent with spouse)
> 
> then it's hard to even talk about what the betrayed spouse needs to do to address the issues that "drove" the cheater to cheat.
> 
> First things first when reconciling: infidelity and all fall out from it.
> 
> Mulder gives lip service to the above--and I do think he thinks all those things are valid--but around here you better make it dang clear that you know what it means to be a repentant cheating spouse BEFORE you even broach the topic of the BS's duties to the marriage.
> 
> At the bottom of all of this, Mulder is right. Weak intimacy in a marriage leads that marriage vulnerable to infidelity. But that can be discussed (and often is, in SIM) in ways that don't trigger folks.
> 
> Mulder, whether its intentional or not, you ARE triggering folks, and that's why you end up going round and round.


I think that you get what I've been saying. Also - You are right that it is important to reconcile with your spouse and rebuild trust....you can't have any sort of LTR without trust. If you fear that your mate is just going to walk off and cheat for no reason whatsoever then you'll be paranoid. However, Marduk came to the harsh but true conclusion - that if you are not meeting your mates needs, if you have any hand in pushing your mate away, then there may be some reconciliation you have to make toward your wayward spouse as well. I would never ever advocate that someone takes responsiblity for the cheating that happened against them, but to take responsibility for some neglect on their own part is a very mature thing to do and will lead to a very strong repair of the relationship. 



GettingIt said:


> then it's hard to even talk about what the betrayed spouse needs to do to address the issues that "drove" the cheater to cheat.
> 
> First things first when reconciling: infidelity and all fall out from it.


This part is partly true in my opinion. Yes it would be very hard for the cheated on spouse to talk about what they need to do to save the relationship without the cheater reconciling FIRST. 

But what would you do if you want the cheating spouse back and he doesn't want to remain married to you if you are going to be neglectful as you have been?

Again - it is the chicken before the egg. I think you have to look at it both ways instead of being rigid in thinking that the cheater MUST confess and reconcile the cheating before any discussion about the future of the marriage. Sometimes the cheated on spouse needs to make the first move (that is - if they want to save the marriage of course).

BTW - thanks for trying to understand me. I asked Blonde to remove her latest comments because it was just distracting from the topic of this thread.


----------



## Lyris

I understand you perfectly. I just don't agree with you.

Any person who is unwilling to stop cheating and make the first moves towards remorseful reconciliation is not worth my time, or anyone's time. 

And I don't have an especially black and white view of cheating. I don't know what I'd do if my husband cheated. I know he wouldn't unless there were very serious problems with our relationship. But I know what I'd do if he continued to cheat and showed no willingness to stop and work on what was wrong. Because that is deceptive and weak and dishonourable and nothing I want anything to do with.


----------



## Mulder

Lyris said:


> I understand you perfectly. I just don't agree with you.
> 
> Any person who is unwilling to stop cheating and make the first moves towards remorseful reconciliation is not worth my time, or anyone's time.
> 
> And I don't have an especially black and white view of cheating. I don't know what I'd do if my husband cheated. I know he wouldn't unless there were very serious problems with our relationship. But I know what I'd do if he continued to cheat and showed no willingness to stop and work on what was wrong. Because that is deceptive and weak and dishonourable and nothing I want anything to do with.


Yeah, I guess in the scenario I painted then - since he doesn't want anything to do with you and you don't want anything to do with a cheating husband, then you'd file for divorce I guess right? Then I guess you do agree with me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mulder

Mulder said:


> Yeah, I guess in the scenario I painted then - since he doesn't want anything to do with you and you don't want anything to do with a cheating husband, then you'd file for divorce I guess right? Then I guess you do agree with me?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Here are the scenarios again (as written in the post to Blonde above):
Say a woman has neglected her husband and her duties in a marriage, and a husband communicates what he claimed as a deal-breaker for a marriage for her to stop that neglecting, but having no result from her to work on that neglect falls into temptation of internet chatting. Should the woman find out about the cheating - she has 2 options: 1) leave him (which it sounds like you are a fan of and I have no argument against that option), or 2) should she desire for whatever reason to stay with him, she should probably work on the things he communicated upfront, and if she tries to confront the cheating BEFORE starting to work on the things she was neglecting in the marriage it COULD end up in him just leaving because SHE isn't a good alternative.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris

Except he's not worth it. So no, she shouldn't do that.


----------



## Marduk

Mulder said:


> Mostly my point of this thread was to say - I shouldn't have been banned at MMSL for having an opinion. If the moderators and Author have good argument against my opinion and for their opinion then theirs will be the good advice people hopefully listen to.


Nope, it's Athol's site and it's his to do with as he pleases.

I say that who's also spent some time there turned my marriage around, and tried to help a lot of people going through my same journey, and then spontaneously got temporarily banned after not agreeing with something Athol was saying.

I think it's pretty much become a vehicle for his coaching, and more power to him for it -- MMSLP has helped a lot of people.

But it became swayed a lot to by women, for women, and women's opinions rule... especially women that pay for coaching. As something that started as a site to help men get to be better husbands, and then started turning men away seeking help... 

That really bothered me.

So I left.

But I don't fault him for it. He has a business model that also helps some people. But I believe it's the beginning, not the end... and everything has it's time.

I recommend letting it go.

My life, and my marriage improved a lot because of MMSLP and it's forums.

But it got a lot better again when I left and let it go.

I recommend you do the same.


----------



## Marduk

Mulder said:


> Here are the scenarios again (as written in the post to Blonde above):
> Say a woman has neglected her husband and her duties in a marriage, and a husband communicates what he claimed as a deal-breaker for a marriage for her to stop that neglecting, but having no result from her to work on that neglect falls into temptation of internet chatting. Should the woman find out about the cheating - she has 2 options: 1) leave him (which it sounds like you are a fan of and I have no argument against that option), or 2) should she desire for whatever reason to stay with him, she should probably work on the things he communicated upfront, and if she tries to confront the cheating BEFORE starting to work on the things she was neglecting in the marriage it COULD end up in him just leaving because SHE isn't a good alternative.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Few things.

#1 he's still a douche for betraying his marriage vows. It's one thing to say "listen wife, you're not living up to your end so I'm tempted to stop living up to mine and I'd rather we work on it or divorce than betray my vows" and it's entirely another to go behind her back and take the coward's way out.

#2 you can't talk/rationalize/plead/threaten a wife into being attracted to you. Trust me, in two marriages I tried.

#3 two wrongs don't make a right. Karma, and all that.


----------



## Mulder

marduk said:


> Few things.
> 
> #1 he's still a douche for betraying his marriage vows. It's one thing to say "listen wife, you're not living up to your end so I'm tempted to stop living up to mine and I'd rather we work on it or divorce than betray my vows" and it's entirely another to go behind her back and take the coward's way out.
> 
> #2 you can't talk/rationalize/plead/threaten a wife into being attracted to you. Trust me, in two marriages I tried.
> 
> #3 two wrongs don't make a right. Karma, and all that.


I totally agree with everything you have said.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MrsDraper

Mulder said:


> BTW - thanks for trying to understand me. I asked Blonde to remove her latest comments because it was just distracting from the topic of this thread.


I'm totally confused. I enjoy reading what everyone has to say here and I love the advice I've been given here in the past. That being said - who are you to ask people to remove their comments? Are you a moderator? Sure, she was getting heated - but there are lots of people who get like that here. It is common. Expect it. They have good points that come along with that. You will have good points to make as well. 

Stop responding to her and engaging her if you want her to stop. I'm dead serious. As someone who has been watching this thread - I see both points of view. There is NO reason to ask one person "remove" or stop thinking one way or the other. Everyone has a valuable point of view. :scratchhead:


----------



## GettingIt_2

Mulder said:


> Yep it was, after I was attacked for being a recovered cheater.
> 
> Mostly my point of this thread was to say - I shouldn't have been banned at MMSL for having an opinion. If the moderators and Author have good argument against my opinion and for their opinion then theirs will be the good advice people hopefully listen to. However to say that my advice is naive, or irrelevant, and then subsequently ban me (not just temporarily mind you, permanently!) I think is just shutting down conversation.
> 
> I think people from all walks of life bring experience to the table that can and should be heard. Good, Bad, and Ugly. That is the point of these kinds of forums (I thought).


No, I think the scope of MMSL is fairly narrow. You might not agree with the scope, but if you want to participate, you have to toe the line or accept that its not a good fit for you. 

You might find that TAM is a better fit for you; you can pretty much argue your point til the cows come home as long as you keep it civil. 




Mulder said:


> But what would you do if you want the cheating spouse back and he doesn't want to remain married to you if you are going to be neglectful as you have been?


I can decide to change or accept the divorce. What I don't have to do is accept his cheating as a way for him to signal that he's not happy. People that take back cheating spouses on terms set by the cheating spouse are hurting, fearful, lacking in self respect, unable to set healthy boundaries, etc. 

As the cheating spouse, would you want someone who only changed because they were afraid you'd cheat again or leave? Or do you want a spouse who changes because they WANT to meet your needs out of LOVE and because they truly understand your needs and it gives them pleasure to meet them?



Mulder said:


> Again - it is the chicken before the egg. I think you have to look at it both ways instead of being rigid in thinking that the cheater MUST confess and reconcile the cheating before any discussion about the future of the marriage. Sometimes the cheated on spouse needs to make the first move (that is - if they want to save the marriage of course).


Nope. The cheated on spouse should not bother working on underlying marital issues until the affair is resolved and the cheater has fully committed to reconciliation--including accepting that he royally fvcked up and needs to make amends. Period. It's a waste of time and energy to try to fix a marriage that is hemorrhaging trust. Rebuild the trust FIRST. Yes, that might take some time. If a cheater is that hell bent on getting his needs met FIRST or BEFORE the betrayed spouse feels secure in trusting again, he should do the right thing and keep right on walking because otherwise the reconciliation is a lie. 



Mulder said:


> BTW - thanks for trying to understand me. I asked Blonde to remove her latest comments because it was just distracting from the topic of this thread.


I understand what you are saying, but I do think there is a fairly wide gulf between what you think is reasonable to expect from a betrayed spouse and what I think is reasonable. 

You better get used to thread jacks; they are a fact of life on TAM. You might have a hoped-for agenda for a thread, but it's gonna sprout a thousand heads despite what you want. Just stay focused on the responses that are helping you, or that are of interest to you. The responses that you don't like might be of interest to someone else.


----------



## Mulder

Lyris said:


> Except he's not worth it. So no, she shouldn't do that.


That doesn't fit in the scenario I painted above. In YOUR scenario he's not worth it. In the other woman's scenario - he is and she wants him back.


----------



## Mulder

MrsDraper said:


> I'm totally confused. I enjoy reading what everyone has to say here and I love the advice I've been given here in the past. That being said - who are you to ask people to remove their comments? Are you a moderator? Sure, she was getting heated - but there are lots of people who get like that here. It is common. Expect it. They have good points that come along with that. You will have good points to make as well.
> 
> Stop responding to her and engaging her if you want her to stop. I'm dead serious. As someone who has been watching this thread - I see both points of view. There is NO reason to ask one person "remove" or stop thinking one way or the other. Everyone has a valuable point of view. :scratchhead:


Anyone can "ask" someone to remove posts. That's all I did, I just asked her to remove the last few that I felt were, shaming, inciting, and generally high-school immature bickering in nature.

I'd rather LIKE to hear peoples points of view if they aren't telling me that I suck or how could I think that.


----------



## Blonde

Mulder said:


> Anyone can "ask" someone to remove posts. That's all I did, I just asked her to remove the last few that I felt were, shaming, inciting, and generally high-school immature bickering in nature.


To me, that came across as controlling as well as trying to whitewash yourself since I assume you don't like them for the nerve they hit. I recommend this for Mrs Mulder Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men - Lundy Bancroft - Google Books

As for getting banned from MMSL, your contention with that also comes out of a need for control IMO. You don't have it. Kay does.

As for your judgments toward me, I presume projection.



Mulder said:


> it COULD end up in him just leaving because SHE isn't a good alternative.


Sure comes across to ME that our wife, the mother of your children is just one "alternative" who can easily be replaced with another wet place to put it. Your vows (in front of God) are meaningless.

Truly, I want to hear what your wife thinks of your opinion... The more you post, the more concern I have for her... and the more I understand why she shut down sexually way back there.... Normal healthy women want to be loved and valued by the person who made vows. "nourished and cherished" as the Apostle Paul put it.



> Stop responding to her and engaging her if you want her to stop. I'm dead serious. As someone who has been watching this thread - I see both points of view. There is NO reason to ask one person "remove" or stop thinking one way or the other. Everyone has a valuable point of view.


IIRC there is also an "Ignore" feature which makes posts invisible.

That is not really necessary since I'll happily stay out but it might give you more of that feeling of control.


----------



## Mulder

GettingIt said:


> I can decide to change or accept the divorce. What I don't have to do is accept his cheating as a way for him to signal that he's not happy. People that take back cheating spouses on terms set by the cheating spouse are hurting, fearful, lacking in self respect, unable to set healthy boundaries, etc.


I guess what I pictured in my marriage long ago, which matched the poster at the other site, is that the internet chatting (cheating) was a signal that the husband checked out of the relationship after communicating unmet needs and then wife not doing anything to address the unmet needs. He was on his way out, UNLESS she did something, or signaled that she was willing to change. If she isn't willing to work on the marriage...then buh-bye.



GettingIt said:


> As the cheating spouse, would you want someone who only changed because they were afraid you'd cheat again or leave? Or do you want a spouse who changes because they WANT to meet your needs out of LOVE and because they truly understand your needs and it gives them pleasure to meet them?


No - I wouldn't want them to change out of fear. I went to my wife first....repeated what I wanted out of marriage (which was communicated prior to us getting married) and told her that I was not happy that she wasn't doing anything about it. chirp-chirp. Of course I would have loved for her to indicate that she really understands my needs and that she wants to try to meet my needs because she loves me. that didn't happen so I started to check out. (as we all know - myself included - cheating is not the right route - but we all make mistakes so whoever has no sin cast the first stone).



GettingIt said:


> Nope. The cheated on spouse should not bother working on underlying marital issues until the affair is resolved and the cheater has fully committed to reconciliation--including accepting that he royally fvcked up and needs to make amends. Period. It's a waste of time and energy to try to fix a marriage that is hemorrhaging trust. Rebuild the trust FIRST. Yes, that might take some time. If a cheater is that hell bent on getting his needs met FIRST or BEFORE the betrayed spouse feels secure in trusting again, he should do the right thing and keep right on walking because otherwise the reconciliation is a lie.
> 
> I understand what you are saying, but I do think there is a fairly wide gulf between what you think is reasonable to expect from a betrayed spouse and what I think is reasonable.


The sense that I get from everyone here is that the cheating husband is a sinner above all other sins (not as much castigating from you GettingIt, but you know what I mean). Well, maybe he is a ********* above all others - but he is on his way out of the marriage, and IF that woman wants to save the marriage....she's got to do something. The cheating husband isn't just going to come back - he wants action too.

So maybe the "healthy", "mature" advice might be to take responsibility for issues she can take responsibility for (she doesn't have to start fixing them yet) and then confront the cheating and say "I see what happened here. I don't like that you were cheating, but I want you to stay, so how about we agree to work on our marriage, I promise to love you and work on meeting your needs within the marriage, and you promise to stop cheating - agreed?"

Does that sound like a healthy compromise? In the poster's scenario she HAS to do something. Confronting the cheating with no plan for taking responsibility for her actions that led to the disconnect in marriage would have potentially resulted in him just moving out and moving on. Many would agree that would be better for the woman - but who's to judge? If the woman is asking for advice on how to KEEP her husband and KEEP her marriage - then she has to make the first step....the ball is in HER court because he already told her what was driving him away from her.

BTW - GettingIT and Marduk - I appreciate the discussion and valuable insight.


----------



## Marduk

Blonde said:


> As for your judgments toward me, I presume projection.


Respectfully, I think you are also projecting... I think he's triggered something here with you.


Blonde said:


> Sure comes across to ME that our wife, the mother of your children is just one "alternative" who can easily be replaced with another wet place to put it. Your vows (in front of God) are meaningless.


He never said that.

I will tell you that my marriage got an order of magnitude better when I realized that everyone is replaceable -- there are women more than willing to take her place and I know there are other dudes willing to take mine.

I choose my wife. And she chooses me. And I want her to keep choosing me, so I stay on my toes, somewhere between safety and insecurity... keeps me lean and mean and with my head in the game to keep her.


Blonde said:


> Truly, I want to hear what your wife thinks of your opinion... The more you post, the more concern I have for her... and the more I understand why she shut down sexually way back there.... Normal healthy women want to be loved and valued by the person who made vows. "nourished and cherished" as the Apostle Paul put it.


Lots of people, men and women alike, try to recover from affairs.

Lots of people, men and women alike, want to try to get their cheating wife back.

I've read that women are better at cheating and better at forgiving cheaters because they're naturally better at compartmentalizing than men are. Not sure I believe it, but maybe it's true.

If, for example, my wife turned emotionally to another dude and had an EA, I may want to try to get her back and understand what she got from him that she wasn't getting from me. Not that it wouldn't be a huge issue but maybe I'd still love her and want her anyway.

Maybe that's the way his wife felt about sex.


----------



## Personal

Mulder said:


> That doesn't fit in the scenario I painted above. In YOUR scenario he's not worth it. In the other woman's scenario - he is and she wants him back.


In your scenario there's no requirement for cheaters remorse and apology and all the rest that follows, not to mention according to you it's her fault she was betrayed. So no, he can't possibly be worth it since he would have no remorse while considering her to be at fault.

I can't see how any cheater is worth it when they have no remorse and blame the betrayed spouse for their egregious deceit and wayward behaviour.

The idea that a man or a woman ought to debase themselves by competing against their cowardly lying spouse's affair partner/s in order to win back their mate is morally repugnant.

Your scenario is built on the premise that it is justified for a man or woman to cheat on their spouse if they don't get sex in a manner that they deem to be satisfactory. Since cheating is an egregious betrayal of trust and a practice that requires deceit in order to undertake it. It simply cannot be morally justified.

If one inadvertently finds themselves to be in a sexless marriage or encounters unreasonable and irreconcilable problems within their marriage. They should either accept their circumstance :scratchhead:, end their marriage or renegotiate their relationship and make it open etc.

A cheater who feels their betrayed spouse ought to jump through hoops, in order to win them back because they blame their spouse for their cheating (in part or fully). Is demonstrably remorseless and certainly not worth offering any kind of prostration to.


----------



## Personal

Blonde said:


> Truly, I want to hear what your wife thinks of your opinion... The more you post, the more concern I have for her.


Yep.


----------



## Mulder

Blonde said:


> To me, that came across as controlling as well as trying to whitewash yourself since I assume you don't like them for the nerve they hit.


Nah, just seemed based on your comments that you thought you were commenting on some other thread, because you clearly weren't paying attention. 



Blonde said:


> As for getting banned from MMSL, your contention with that also comes out of a need for control IMO. You don't have it. Kay does.


It isn't controlling for someone to have an opinion that they shouldn't have been banned on a public forum. I never demanded that they take me back....its just an opinion.



Blonde said:


> As for your judgments toward me, I presume projection.


Nope - as I said in my message to you. I would rather keep this a friendly discussion. No accusing, no inciting, no shaming. It doesn't help the conversation to say things like this:
-you come across so arrogant and selfish about YOUR CHOICE
-You sound like a narcissist. Its all about YOU.
-Cough cough, choke choke.
-your wife is a fool to be with you at this point. She should cut her losses and get out while she is young and has a lot of years to enjoy someone who is faithful and doesn't have an entitled victim mentality about their own character defects and scummy behavior.
-believe bovine manure (like you are shovelling here)
-you scare me. My H cheated in 1990 and AGAIN in 2008. Fraid -you are of the same cloth as him and I want to speak to your W.
-you make God and christianity look bad



Blonde said:


> Sure comes across to ME that our wife, the mother of your children is just one "alternative" who can easily be replaced with another wet place to put it. Your vows (in front of God) are meaningless.


I'm not your husband - why don't you tell HIM that since it is apparent you need to get it off your chest.



Blonde said:


> Truly, I want to hear what your wife thinks of your opinion... The more you post, the more concern I have for her... and the more I understand why she shut down sexually way back there.... Normal healthy women want to be loved and valued by the person who made vows. "nourished and cherished" as the Apostle Paul put it.


Before I checked out of the marriage I was not very good OI (outcome independent) when it came to sex. Otherwise I was doing everything above and beyond the call of duty to nourish and cherish her. OI meaning that if I wanted sex and she didn't want to, I would get frustrated....after all I was a red-blooded high-testosterone young married guy with no kids - why couldn't we have sex anytime I wanted to? She might have become a bit more shut down sexually due to that obvious frustration. This is something that we clearly could have worked out with counseling or something, but it was only one of the ways we were becoming disconnected.




Blonde said:


> IIRC there is also an "Ignore" feature which makes posts invisible.
> 
> That is not really necessary since I'll happily stay out but it might give you more of that feeling of control.


You've already said you'd stay out. So I don't "trust" you anymore.  But really I think the bigger issues is that I feel you have a need to mischaracterize me and attack me. I am not controlling, and I just really feel that most of your posts directed at me and attacking me were a mis-representation of what I was saying and was dragging this thread away from what it was about. If you don't want to remove your hateful posts, then fine.

But if you really get to know me - I'm pretty amicable to other people, even those who don't like me or my opinions.

And if you would calm down, put aside your projection from your own relationship for a second, and listen to me - I said I wasn't a christian when I got married, my wife neglected me and I communicated to her about that, THEN I started checking out of the marriage and started internet chatting (which seems like a pretty common progression of a marriage falling apart), at some point during that I was led to God through a friend and I found a new meaning for my life and my marriage and I made all of the apology, reconciliation, and reparation necessary - THEN I have had nearly 20 more wonderful years with my wife where I have not cheated at all, and I have more than made it up to her. So my story is a good one, with a good outcome, and I'd hate for people like you to push good people with good stories out of sites like this because of your mischaracterization and misrepresentation of them.

Now go forth and be kind and contribute toward the conversation in a productive way.


----------



## Mulder

Personal said:


> In your scenario there's no requirement for cheaters remorse and apology and all the rest that follows, not to mention according to you it's her fault she was betrayed. So no, he can't possibly be worth it since he would have no remorse while considering her to be at fault.
> 
> I can't see how any cheater is worth it when they have no remorse and blame the betrayed spouse for their egregious deceit and wayward behaviour.
> 
> The idea that a man or a woman ought to debase themselves by competing against their cowardly lying spouse's affair partner/s in order to win back their mate is morally repugnant.
> 
> Your scenario is built on the premise that it is justified for a man or woman to cheat on their spouse if they don't get sex in a manner that they deem to be satisfactory. Since cheating is an egregious betrayal of trust and a practice that requires deceit in order to undertake it. It simply cannot be morally justified.
> 
> If one inadvertently finds themselves to be in a sexless marriage or encounters unreasonable and irreconcilable problems within their marriage. They should either accept their circumstance :scratchhead:, end their marriage or renegotiate their relationship and make it open etc.
> 
> A cheater who feels their betrayed spouse ought to jump through hoops, in order to win them back because they blame their spouse for their cheating (in part or fully). Is demonstrably remorseless and certainly not worth offering any kind of prostration to.


This is a total misrepresentation of what I have said. I never said that.

As a matter of fact - I have said that it is important that the cheater reconcile and take responsibility for their actions, you cannot have an LTR without trust, and the trust needs to be rebuilt. But a cheater on the way out isn't going to suck up, apologize, and reconcile if they felt pushed out of the relationship....it is a two way street and the other spouse should take responsibility for their actions or inactions in the marriage if they want to keep the wayward spouse and rebuild the marriage.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Mulder said:


> I guess what I pictured in my marriage long ago, which matched the poster at the other site, is that the internet chatting (cheating) was a signal that the husband checked out of the relationship after communicating unmet needs and then wife not doing anything to address the unmet needs. He was on his way out, UNLESS she did something, or signaled that she was willing to change. If she isn't willing to work on the marriage...then buh-bye.


Cheating is a signal that the spouse is being a dishonest cheater. Full stop. 

Saying (with words), "Wife, I'm detaching from you and this marriage due to our lack our intimacy and your refusal to work on it with me. I don't want a marriage without intimacy. Its making me utterly miserable, and I want to find someone I can have that intimacy with. I wish we could have worked it out, but I'll be seeing a lawyer tomorrow to learn about divorce proceedings, " is a signal that a husband has checked out of a marriage. 




Mulder said:


> No - I wouldn't want them to change out of fear. I went to my wife first....repeated what I wanted out of marriage (which was communicated prior to us getting married) and told her that I was not happy that she wasn't doing anything about it. chirp-chirp. Of course I would have loved for her to indicate that she really understands my needs and that she wants to try to meet my needs because she loves me. that didn't happen so I started to check out. (as we all know - myself included - cheating is not the right route - but we all make mistakes so whoever has no sin cast the first stone).


Not all mistakes are created equal, so required atonements do vary. It's not like you stayed out too late with your buddies or decided to take up rock climbing instead of continuing to meet her needs. You cheated. Pay the price before you ask for any consideration. 




Mulder said:


> The sense that I get from everyone here is that the cheating husband is a sinner above all other sins (not as much castigating from you GettingIt, but you know what I mean). Well, maybe he is a ********* above all others - but he is on his way out of the marriage, and IF that woman wants to save the marriage....she's got to do something. The cheating husband isn't just going to come back - he wants action too.
> 
> So maybe the "healthy", "mature" advice might be to take responsibility for issues she can take responsibility for (she doesn't have to start fixing them yet) and then confront the cheating and say "I see what happened here. I don't like that you were cheating, but I want you to stay, so how about we agree to work on our marriage, I promise to love you and work on meeting your needs within the marriage, and you promise to stop cheating - agreed?"
> 
> Does that sound like a healthy compromise?


No, it sounds pretty unhealthy to me. Not saying some women won't choose that, but I'd NEVER counsel it, even to a woman who is desperate to stay in the marriage. She is operating out of shock and fear, not a sense of personal integrity, and she is not thinking long-term about the consequences of placating a cheating spouse by taking ANY responsibility for his cheating.

You can state you case til you are blue in the face. I flat out disagree with it. 



Mulder said:


> In the poster's scenario she HAS to do something. Confronting the cheating with no plan for taking responsibility for her actions that led to the disconnect in marriage would have potentially resulted in him just moving out and moving on. Many would agree that would be better for the woman - but who's to judge?


Well, you asked for opinions, which requires some judgment, so I judge that it's not a good way to begin a reconciliation after infidelity to start working on underlying issues until the matter of the cheating has been dealt with and put to rest. If the cheater can't agree to that, then he or she is not on board with rebuilding the marriage; rather wants to keep one foot out the door as a way to control his or her spouse. Bad idea all around. 



Mulder said:


> BTW - GettingIT and Marduk - I appreciate the discussion and valuable insight.


You are welcome.


----------



## Csquare

Mulder,

I appreciate your posts. What you are really talking about is cause and effect. Cheating doesn't happen in a vacuum. There is always *some* context. What you are suggesting is that in certain contexts the BS has some agency creating a marriage in which cheating is less likely to occur. Seems pretty common sensical and not at all blame-shifting, justifying, etc.

But you are asking BS to stop playing victim and take a hard look at their own actions in driving away their WS. That does not go well here on TAM. Nor does it go well IRL, either. 

Most people when confronted with their failings become angry, defensive, and aggressive. Which is why some of your posts have been mis-characterized and misrepresented. These are tactics of individuals who would rather hold on to their grievances rather than humble themselves to R. These are people who probably would be happier divorced from their WS. 

However, should they find themselves in a new relationship, they may encounter the same dynamics leading to the first A unless they dig deep and learn how to create a healthier M.


----------



## Marduk

Csquare said:


> But you are asking BS to stop playing victim and take a hard look at their own actions in driving away their WS. That does not go well here on TAM. Nor does it go well IRL, either.


Speaking from personal experience, it's something I had to come to understand and accept on my own.

If I would have heard it from God himself I would have told him to shove it.


----------



## BURNT KEP

As it being fair that you got banned no I guess it isn't. But even though it is a public forum it is privately owned and the person who owns it sets the rules. So if you don't like it move on to a different forum such as this one. 

Now on to the the cheating issue if things are that bad at home and your needs are not being met it's time to either stay and deal with it or move on and file for divorce. An EA or PA is the cowards way.


----------



## Mulder

Personal said:


> (therefore it's her fault she was betrayed).


I didn't say that. You did. It is clearly the cheater's responsibility for his own actions. It is clearly the spouse's responsibility for any neglect of theirs in the marriage. These are two different things, and I am not saying that if you neglect your spouse in a marriage = they will cheat on you.....it doesn't even = that they will absolutely leave you either. But it does = that your spouse will probably be unhappy and that creates a certain type of environment where people question their vows.

In the scenario I have painted, the cheater is probably not going to be remorseful and apologize if the spouse isn't going to be remorseful and apologize for their neglect as well. It's just reality for some people....I know in my situation I certainly felt that way, and you can call me a douche or that I took the cowards way or whatever - but that was what I was feeling. No more marriage with this woman unless she made some changes (and if she was interested in that then I would stop what I was doing and not continue my plans to leave.

By the way - I do agree that cheating is not the way to go. I should have just contacted an attorney and shown her divorce papers and given her an ultimatum.



Personal said:


> (there's no mention of cheaters remorse and an apology to be found here).


Well, I am remorseful. But I am sure some cheaters are not, and probably won't be until there is reconciliation from both parties....again, I'm not saying it is right...its just reality.



Personal said:


> Is that before or after the betrayed spouse apologises and submits to the whim of the lying cheater? If it's before, the betrayed spouse doesn't need to chase and submit to a lying cheater. If it's after, the lying cheater remains remorseless and is therefore not worth keeping!


Look - nobody is twisting the arm of the betrayed spouse. Clearly in your mind you would be divorced and no looking back. You have been very clear that the cheating person (no matter if it was Bill Gates, Tom Cruise, or whatever rich/hot/whatever you like and are attracted to he is) is not worth keeping.

But also - I'm not suggesting that when both parties come together and reconcile that they don't BOTH need to take responsibility for their issues in the marriage and apologize to each other.....I think that full remorse, reconciliation, and turning toward a good mutual marriage is the key.

I know you don't like what I am saying....but it is reality for some.


----------



## Mulder

GettingIt said:


> Cheating is a signal that the spouse is being a dishonest cheater. Full stop.
> 
> Saying (with words), "Wife, I'm detaching from you and this marriage due to our lack our intimacy and your refusal to work on it with me. I don't want a marriage without intimacy. Its making me utterly miserable, and I want to find someone I can have that intimacy with. I wish we could have worked it out, but I'll be seeing a lawyer tomorrow to learn about divorce proceedings, " is a signal that a husband has checked out of a marriage.


I totally agree and I wish I had done this. I know my character was severely damaged due to my mistake and I wish I could have done things different. I became very aware of my wrong when I became a Christian and changed my life for the better. I haven't made that mistake since. (still not perfect but haven't made THAT mistake again! )



GettingIt said:


> Not all mistakes are created equal, so required atonements do vary. It's not like you stayed out too late with your buddies or decided to take up rock climbing instead of continuing to meet her needs. You cheated. Pay the price before you ask for any consideration.


That's where I think people get me wrong...if I wanted to stay with my wife I would have paid the price before asking for her consideration. In my scenario I was done. I was already a record player for requesting that she meet my needs in marriage and so the ball was now in her court. It was fine with me if she didn't want to come back to me begging to have me back....but I also wasn't in a position where I cared to come back to her. Done.



GettingIt said:


> No, it sounds pretty unhealthy to me. Not saying some women won't choose that, but I'd NEVER counsel it, even to a woman who is desperate to stay in the marriage. She is operating out of shock and fear, not a sense of personal integrity, and she is not thinking long-term about the consequences of placating a cheating spouse by taking ANY responsibility for his cheating.


No room for a woman who realizes that she was seriously neglecting her spouse and comes to the realization that (minus the cheating) he is someone she wants to remain married to and wants to initiate the reconciliation process? If not - that's ok....I agree with a lot of what you say and there are just many shades of what is acceptable and not to people right?




GettingIt said:


> Well, you asked for opinions, which requires some judgment, so I judge that it's not a good way to begin a reconciliation after infidelity to start working on underlying issues until the matter of the cheating has been dealt with and put to rest. If the cheater can't agree to that, then he or she is not on board with rebuilding the marriage; rather wants to keep one foot out the door as a way to control his or her spouse. Bad idea all around.


Yeah, i think there needs to be a clear plan that both parties can agree on before full reconciliation happens. Cheater stops cheating now, spouse stops neglecting and works on marriage now. This is where I was probably wrong before in my description of rebuilding the marriage. I just knew that in my scenario - the spouse needed to make the first move. Maybe it would have been unhealthy for that woman to just start acting all wifely without first telling him to stop cheating.....but in my scenario I would have told her to pound sand if she didn't first come back to me and say something to the effect of "I realize that I have neglected you and not acted like a wife to you. I would very much like to start acting like your wife and loving you the way I should as a wife - but I will only do that if you stop what you are doing and stay focused on the marriage and never do that again."

Like I said - I wasn't twisting her arm...I was checked out. And I realize I was the bad guy in this and I could have kept my integrity and character from blemish if I had just considered ultimatum and divorce.


----------



## Mulder

Csquare said:


> Mulder,
> 
> I appreciate your posts. What you are really talking about is cause and effect. Cheating doesn't happen in a vacuum. There is always *some* context. What you are suggesting is that in certain contexts the BS has some agency creating a marriage in which cheating is less likely to occur. Seems pretty common sensical and not at all blame-shifting, justifying, etc.
> 
> But you are asking BS to stop playing victim and take a hard look at their own actions in driving away their WS. That does not go well here on TAM. Nor does it go well IRL, either.
> 
> Most people when confronted with their failings become angry, defensive, and aggressive. Which is why some of your posts have been mis-characterized and misrepresented. These are tactics of individuals who would rather hold on to their grievances rather than humble themselves to R. These are people who probably would be happier divorced from their WS.
> 
> However, should they find themselves in a new relationship, they may encounter the same dynamics leading to the first A unless they dig deep and learn how to create a healthier M.


This is truth. I think you nailed it.


----------



## Mulder

BURNT KEP said:


> As it being fair that you got banned no I guess it isn't. But even though it is a public forum it is privately owned and the person who owns it sets the rules. So if you don't like it move on to a different forum such as this one.
> 
> Now on to the the cheating issue if things are that bad at home and your needs are not being met it's time to either stay and deal with it or move on and file for divorce. An EA or PA is the cowards way.


Totally agree. Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda. I am a big believer that the EA/PA is the wrong way to go - SINCE I became a Christian and reconciled my marriage. But when I was going that route I couldn't care less. I made the wrong decision.

Now I hope my experience can benefit others so the same mistakes aren't made for them.

Thanks for posting.


----------



## GettingIt_2

Mulder said:


> No room for a woman who realizes that she was seriously neglecting her spouse and comes to the realization that (minus the cheating) he is someone she wants to remain married to and wants to initiate the reconciliation process? If not - that's ok....I agree with a lot of what you say and there are just many shades of what is acceptable and not to people right?


You might be interested in reading how I landed here at TAM. My story thread is in my signature. 




Mulder said:


> Yeah, i think there needs to be a clear plan that both parties can agree on before full reconciliation happens. Cheater stops cheating now, spouse stops neglecting and works on marriage now. This is where I was probably wrong before in my description of rebuilding the marriage. I just knew that in my scenario - the spouse needed to make the first move. Maybe it would have been unhealthy for that woman to just start acting all wifely without first telling him to stop cheating.....but in my scenario I would have told her to pound sand if she didn't first come back to me and say something to the effect of "I realize that I have neglected you and not acted like a wife to you. I would very much like to start acting like your wife and loving you the way I should as a wife - but I will only do that if you stop what you are doing and stay focused on the marriage and never do that again."
> 
> Like I said - I wasn't twisting her arm...I was checked out. And I realize I was the bad guy in this and I could have kept my integrity and character from blemish if I had just considered ultimatum and divorce.


I just don't see how she can respect you after that. 
I just don't see how she can trust you.

And I don't see how you can think its okay to recommend to a cheated on spouse that she accept her husband's cheating and "take it or leave it attitude" about his cheating. 

I think you owe it to your wife to wrap your head around this, then go to her with the apology you should have given her 20 years ago. It was terribly disrespectful of you to allow her to "take you back" under the conditions you describe. You used her.

You might decide to let sleeping dogs lie, but keep in mind they might not be as deep in slumber as you assume.


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## Mulder

GettingIt said:


> You might be interested in reading how I landed here at TAM. My story thread is in my signature.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I just don't see how she can respect you after that.
> I just don't see how she can trust you.
> 
> And I don't see how you can think its okay to recommend to a cheated on spouse that she accept her husband's cheating and "take it or leave it attitude" about his cheating.
> 
> I think you owe it to your wife to wrap your head around this, then go to her with the apology you should have given her 20 years ago. It was terribly disrespectful of you to allow her to "take you back" under the conditions you describe. You used her.
> 
> You might decide to let sleeping dogs lie, but keep in mind they might not be as deep in slumber as you assume.


I'm still missing the boat with you (just a little bit I think). I never would tell someone that they accept someone's cheating. I was saying that the ball was in her court as to whether she wants a marriage with him or not. She needed to confront the cheating with a tone of reconciliation as well...that she would stop neglecting the marriage and he would stop the cheating. Otherwise, she needs to be prepared for divorce.

BTW - It didn't go down that way for me. Like I said, a friend introduced me to God and his mercy during that time. I ended up coming to my wife and told her that I wanted to create the marriage that we should have created from the beginning. I told her I was sorry about what I was doing, completely reconciled with her, and that I was ready to move forward if she wanted to - but I did have my requirement that she work on her stuff.

Does that help you understand? Maybe after all this time there is some underlying trust issues. You've caused me to think a bit but after all this time do I DARE bring up these things when it is going so well? I know I was disrespectful to her. I took responsibility for it, apologized, and we moved on.


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## GettingIt_2

Mulder said:


> I'm still missing the boat with you (just a little bit I think). I never would tell someone that they accept someone's cheating. I was saying that the ball was in her court as to whether she wants a marriage with him or not. *She needed to confront the cheating with a tone of reconciliation as well.*..that she would stop neglecting the marriage and he would stop the cheating. Otherwise, she needs to be prepared for divorce.
> 
> BTW - It didn't go down that way for me. Like I said, *a friend introduced me to God and his mercy during that time.* I ended up coming to my wife and told her that I wanted to create the marriage that we should have created from the beginning. I told her I was sorry about what I was doing, completely reconciled with her, and that I was ready to move forward if she wanted to - *but I did have my requirement that she work on her stuff.*


I really don't think we'll ever be in the same boat on this issue. 

The bolded above hint at why. No BS should ever confront the cheating spouse about their infidelity with a tone of reconciliation. The tone should be: you f'd up; here is what you need to do if you're interested in saving the marriage, otherwise I'm filing and I'm not interested in what drove you to cheat, either. Even if the cheated on spouse WANTS to save their marriage, this is the needed approach. Why? Because otherwise the cheater doesn't comprehend the magnitude of his fvck up, and doesn't understand what a heathy marriage needs to function, and doesn't understand that getting back to a base line of trust doesn't involve asking the BS to start working on herself before the infidelity and all its fall out has been put to rest. If this approach pushes the cheating spouse out the door, then the BS should know that the reconciliation wouldn't have worked because the cheating spouse isn't up to doing the work. 

That is not to say that the BS shouldn't start to work on herself; but that's got to come from her wanting to, not from the cheater saying, "If you want be back, you better work on x, y, z." And it's best if she controls all aspects of her work and makes it clear that she's doing it to move forward and be healthy for herself and any future relationships--be it a rebuilt marriage with the cheating spouse, or a new relationship with a different man. Cheating shouldn't be rewarded in ANY way. 

And the thing about your friend helping you find God? All well and good, but why did it take your friend and God? Why do for them what you wouldn't do for your wife and yourself and your marriage? 

Look, you seem like you're trying really hard to take responsibility for your actions. But, like I said before, it's not the cheating that teaches anyone a lesson here; it's the fact that you emotionally detached. Emotional detachment is a threat to any marriage, and yes, meeting your spouse's expressed needs is a way to head off that detachment. 

But the cheating? Thats *not* something any spouse is responsible for heading off. That's a choice that a cheater makes _on their own._ That's a choice that a cheater has to atone for _on their own. _

If you read my thread, you'd see that my husband was miserable with our poor intimacy for _ten years._ I take full responsibility for my part in that. Had he cheated, I would have taken not one whit of the responsibility for his infidelity. That would have been on him. 



Mulder said:


> Does that help you understand? Maybe after all this time there is some underlying trust issues. You've caused me to think a bit but after all this time do I DARE bring up these things when it is going so well? I know I was disrespectful to her. I took responsibility for it, apologized, and we moved on.


Why don't you show her this thread and let her decide if your apology was enough?


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## Mulder

GettingIt - yeah, we might not ever been in the same boat....but we're close.

Just know that I never, ever, ever have said that the woman take responsibility for her husband's cheating. That is on him.

Your approach would have guaranteed divorce in my scenario had things not changed for other reasons. Maybe that would have been better for us? Hard to imagine since we've had such a long happy marriage since.

The part about becoming a Christian and realizing things - well, that was just in introduction to a better moral compass. That is when I confessed to her what I was doing wrong rather than keep it hidden. I told her I was still confused as to what would be grounds for divorce but that I was basically checked out and we could choose to work on it (me work on my crap and she would need to work on hers or it wasn't going to work for me) or we could just end it now and move on. She chose to work on it.

What you said about emotional detachment was interesting. Basically that is what my wife did with me early in our marriage. At some point, I gave up too. It wasn't too hard to emotionally detach from a woman who was already emotionally detached from me. Having read MMSL recently I can see that I lost the oneitis, and I just should have moved through the phases and see what happens....but I didn't have that tool or knowledge so long ago..

Honestly it isn't hard for me to see how that when down....you don't take care of your spouse and you might not have him/her to take care of in the future. Kinda like what Marduk said.

I look forward to reading your story.


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## GettingIt_2

Keep in mind, then, that your wife chose to stay with you because you came to her before you had an EA or a PA. Your story might have been different otherwise. 

You say that your cheating consisted of thinking about chatting up women on the internet (or did you actually make a connection?). Admitting that to your wife and asking her to work on rebuilding intimacy is worlds apart from telling her that you're emotionally and/or sexually involved with another woman, but you'll consider coming back to her if she works harder on meeting your needs.


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## RClawson

"I never claimed God while following my penis around. I was following my penis around without God, when I was introduced to God I stopped following my penis around. Sounds like your husband claimed God, but didn't have God - more like social pressures to say he was religious and do religious things rather than do it on his own recognizance (LDS?)"

Stereotype much?


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## Mulder

RClawson said:


> "I never claimed God while following my penis around. I was following my penis around without God, when I was introduced to God I stopped following my penis around. Sounds like your husband claimed God, but didn't have God - more like social pressures to say he was religious and do religious things rather than do it on his own recognizance (LDS?)"
> 
> Stereotype much?


I agree - I shouldn't have said that. I have a few friends growing up, lds, totally went on a mission and everything, but acted just as poorly as I did when I was young....so my mind just went to that (well, also when she said she had 8 kids!), but you are absolutely right I shouldn't have made that stereotype. I edited the post to take that out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lyris

And I'm a total atheist and I still think cheating sucks


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## Mulder

Lyris said:


> And I'm a total atheist and I still think cheating sucks


I don't think anyone in this forum (whatever their religion) said cheating was cool.


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## Marduk

I think you guys need to chill on this guy.

Maybe he didn't say it right, or it wasn't taken the way he intended.

But to continue to bash a guy that cheated on his wife a lifetime ago, admitted he was wrong, apologized, was taken back by his wife, and has had a successful marriage since is just pointless.

His point, as he clearly stated, is that there are things that help enable cheaters to cheat. A lack of sex is one of them.

This of course surprises no-one. 

However it triggers a lot of us (myself included) that have been hurt by infidelity... because nothing excuses it or makes it OK. Which is also true. So we beat up on Mulder for cheating.

Listen, she took the dude back. That was her choice. He hasn't done it since. That was his choice. He isn't excusing himself for doing it. He apologized for it and owned up to it. He's saying "this is why I did it and the betrayed spouse needs to understand why the betraying spouse did it to reconcile."

Which I agree with. And would have sold my left testicle for if my ex wife offered to explain why she cheated on me instead of just walking away from the marriage with no reasons and left me to find out on my own that she was cheating. And never even owned up to it.

So I don't understand all the melodrama and religious talk.


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## Blonde

Wouldn't dream of beating someone up for something they did years ago and were truly repentant over.

Mulder OTH is claiming to be transformed by his faith and his god yet is preaching to people TODAY that BS should "win back" a cheater and that partners are easily replaceable and interchangeable. 



Mulder said:


> should she desire for whatever reason to stay with him, she should probably work on the things he communicated upfront, and if she tries to confront the cheating BEFORE starting to work on the things she was neglecting in the marriage it COULD end up in him just leaving because SHE isn't a good alternative.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That is what he is posting NOW. Can't help but wonder how his wife feels about that? as well as questioning a "faith" that validates such a shallow and self centered view of other people?

*WOMEN*

“We use a most unfortunate idiom when we say, of a lustful man prowling the streets, that he “wants a woman.” Strictly speaking, a woman is just what he does not want.
*He wants a pleasure for which a woman happens to be the necessary piece of apparatus.* How much he cares about the woman as such may be gauged by his attitude to her five minutes after fruition (one does not keep the carton after one has smoked the cigarettes).
Now Eros makes a man really want, not a woman, but one particular woman. In some mysterious but quite indisputable fashion the lover desires the Beloved herself, not the pleasure she can give.”
_- CS Lewis, The Four Loves_
​

"*He wants a pleasure for which a woman happens to be the necessary piece of apparatus.*" = "it COULD end up in him just leaving because SHE isn't a good alternative."

And JFTR my H got plenty of sex and cheated anyway. He told me that cheating "is like going out to a restaurant when you aren't home to get a home cooked meal". My H has the same "women are interchangeable" perspective that I hear from Mulder and concerns me for his W (as H cheated in year 7 and again in year 26 of our 32 year M)


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## Mulder

I'm officially being stalked by Blonde. She STILL doesn't understand me and is misquoting me, but worse is that I don't think she is really TRYING to understand me.

Not nice to project the picture of your husband onto me and then try to beat me like a piñata.

If my wife was giving me the love and sex I asked for - I wouldn't have been interested in the affection of other women.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk

Mulder said:


> I'm officially being stalked by Blonde. She STILL doesn't understand me and is misquoting me, but worse is that I don't think she is really TRYING to understand me.
> 
> Not nice to project the picture of your husband onto me and then try to beat me like a piñata.
> 
> If my wife was giving me the love and sex I asked for - I wouldn't have been interested in the affection of other women.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Don't worry about it dude. My read is that you triggered something big and deep and dark and strong in her, and she's been wronged in her past and that's OK. 

Everyone deserves compassion. Those that make mistakes and those that have trouble getting over them most of all.

There's more than enough pain to go around.


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## Mulder

marduk said:


> Don't worry about it dude. My read is that you triggered something big and deep and dark and strong in her, and she's been wronged in her past and that's OK.
> 
> Everyone deserves compassion. Those that make mistakes and those that have trouble getting over them most of all.
> 
> There's more than enough pain to go around.


You're right. And my last post might have signaled that I let it get under my skin. All good now. I got it off my chest.

Thanks for keeping it real Marduk.

I deleted the post - it was wrong for me to let it get under my skin. And it just gives PERSONAL more text to draw cartoon characters around.


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## Forest

Is this more aggravating than Dance Moms?


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## Blonde

Personal said:


> Okay.
> 
> 
> 
> Charming.
> 
> 
> 
> :allhail:
> 
> 
> 
> :whip:


:rofl:

"god" forbid she stop the narcissistic supply. 
or there will be "hell" to pay :FIREdevil:

keep posting mulder. you keep digging your hole deeper and deeper. the thread is just so amusing I can't resist checking in. MMSL loss, TAM gain :rofl:


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## Mulder

Forest said:


> Is this more aggravating than Dance Moms?


Yes it is. Welcome to TAM right? Well, I'll have to start weeding between the people who'd like to debate and provide opinion, and the ones that are looking for someone to take out their life's disappointments on. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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