# 2 OSF in the same bed? what's the point?



## lovelygirl

OSF = opposite sex friend.

So there's this very-long-time OSF of mine [for whom I've talked about a few times here]. 
Since he moved into my city a couple of months ago, he has asked me several times [almost every week] to go over at his apartment, to watch a movie and spend the night there.

On a side note to give some history: We have shared beds together in the past. Nothing has really happened except for him cuddling up with me and caressing me during the night....but neither have I responded nor have I rejected. This happened whenever we used to travel while always ended up getting one hotel room in order not to spend money.
Even when we had separate beds he would always get into my bed.
In the past, we had discussed about being in a relationship together but I rejected the idea due to his instability when in a relationship and WE *agreed* not to take it further.
So, we don't come up with the idea of being in a relationship together anymore and _I think _we're indifferent to this idea.

Fast forward , he asked me again today to go over at his place but I'm still hesitant.
What is the point really? Why should two OSF sleep in the same bed when there are chances to avoid this? What's the point of him caressing me, cuddling up with me, kissing my cheek and neck at night, touching my back and arms ..massaging them, ... when he's just a friend? 

To me, that's not a friendly act. It's what lovers do. 
He says there's nothing wrong and that's how really close friends act. Is it true? Am I wrong?

Do any of you guys do this with you OSF if you're single? Did you use to in the past? 
Would you?


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## KanDo

you aren't serious, are you? Off course this is not normal friend stuff


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## Maricha75

Uhhh, no. Friends don't do that kind of thing. You do that when you're dating/in a relationship. Sounds like he still wants that with you, but isn't saying it because you stated you don't want more than friendship.


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## lovelygirl

He's been living in Italy for years and Italians have this tendency of sharing the same bed and acting too friendly/close with OSF as if they were lovers. Maybe that's why I don't blame him that much. He's got it from that culture? 
THat's why I put it up for discussion because some guys have it just in them to act that way towards their female friends. 
But it's still weird to me, althugh he keeps on telling me that I should free myself from complexities and be more easy going.

If this is just a trap to make me open my legs for him or if he's naturally like this with all his female friends... , is something I'll never be able to tell.


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## unbelievable

You're a woman, he's a guy. He wants in your pants. Nothing unusual or abnormal about that. An "agreement" to hop into the rack with you without any expectation of sex is about as binding as a tiger "agreeing" to just cuddle with a steak. I'll save you a lot of confusion as you navigate through life as a female. Guys want to have sex with you. We are more than happy to lie to you to get your knickers off. We will pretend to like your mother, like your cat, find your poems interesting. There are no purely platonical straight male/straight female intimate relationships. Unless a guy shared the same womb with you, he's not "like a brother". You are meat and men are carnivores. I'm sure some men find you interesting in other aspects as well, but you are primarily meat. A male chipmunk doesn't hang around a female chipmunk for fascinating conversation. People aren't all that different.


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## Stonewall

unbelievable said:


> You're a woman, he's a guy. He wants in your pants. Nothing unusual or abnormal about that. An "agreement" to hop into the rack with you without any expectation of sex is about as binding as a tiger "agreeing" to just cuddle with a steak. I'll save you a lot of confusion as you navigate through life as a female. Guys want to have sex with you. We are more than happy to lie to you to get your knickers off. We will pretend to like your mother, like your cat, find your poems interesting. There are no purely platonical straight male/straight female intimate relationships. Unless a guy shared the same womb with you, he's not "like a brother". You are meat and men are carnivores. I'm sure some men find you interesting in other aspects as well, but you are primarily meat. A male chipmunk doesn't hang around a female chipmunk for fascinating conversation. People aren't all that different.


This!


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## okeydokie

yeah, he is hoping to flip your switch. as long as you dont resist the touching he thinks he has that chance


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## unbelievable

"Nothing has really happened except for him cuddling up with me."
(note: His idea. He cuddled up next to you. Not, "we cuddled".

he would always get into my bed.
(note Again, his idea.)

"we had discussed about being in a relationship together but I rejected the idea." Note: Author doesn't clearly indicate who brought this idea up, but it sounds like the idea originated with him and was shot down by her.. Again, his move.

"he asked me again today to go over at his place" Again, his idea.

See a pattern? He quite clearly wants to bang your brains out. Each of his actions clearly are designed to achieve one and only one purpose...to separate you from your drawers. Another helpful hint that will serve you well throughout your life: Any time a person's words do not agree with their actions, ALWAYS BELIEVE THEIR ACTIONS. I could tell you I'm Christopher Columbus. If it could get me laid, I very well might. The wolf didn't hop into Grandma's bedclothes because he was a transvestite.


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## Dollystanford

he wants to sleep with you and he's hoping to wear you down until you succumb


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## lovelygirl

unbelievable said:


> "we had discussed about being in a relationship together but I rejected the idea." Note: Author doesn't clearly indicate who brought this idea up, but it sounds like the idea originated with him and was shot down by her.. Again, his move.


He brought up the idea. I joined the discussion but then gave it an end.


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## Mishy

lovelygirl said:


> He's been living in Italy for years and Italians have this tendency of sharing the same bed and acting too friendly/close with OSF as if they were lovers. Maybe that's why I don't blame him that much. He's got it from that culture?


Where the hell did you read this?

*I am Italian and we DO NOT act as you described.*

We have boundaries, OSF do not sleep together. 


:scratchhead:


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## Lon

LG, no matter what he wants, do what you are comfortable with. You already said you are uncomfortable with sharing a bed with him, and the reason why is perfectly clear - you even have had many guys and gals confirm - so if he was a friend he would not want to make you uncomfortable.


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## SimplyAmorous

He is weaseling his way into getting the lovely girl in bed !!

If you don't want this man in any way shape or form, don't go hanging out anywhere where you are alone. Period. 

Friends don't DO that!!


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## LearningLifeQDay

"Where the hell did you read this?
I am Italian and we DO NOT act as you described.
We have boundaries, OSF do not sleep together." Thanks Mishy, I was trying to sort that information out. I was just on the phone to the travel agency..."Where to? 'Italy, please.' " You just spoiled my vacation plans!


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## Cosmos

I remember doing this is as a teenager, but not as a sexually mature adult.


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## Caribbean Man

This is the part of men that I hate.


I have always been disgusted with a man who will do anything to get into any woman's panties.
For the record, I have selpt in the same bed with OSF and we never even cuddled or kissed.
One such time a friend of mine thought someone was trying to break into her small apartment. At 2.00AM in the morning she called me,and I went across.
I didn't even touch the lady. I was not interested.

Another time was after a party at a friend's house, we all slept at the house . Myself , another guy and a girl slept in the same bed.
No sex, no touching. [ Maybe we were too drunk and wasted?]
Everybody just cool.

Today we are still great friends.

Friends don't take advantage of friends.
He is not your true friend.

But then, lots of guys still begging for sex.


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## Caribbean Man

michzz said:


> So why are YOU allowing him in your bed to be caressed like a lover?
> 
> I think you want this on some level.


Well I don't think she told him that she wanted sex?
They had a relationship which was dysfunctional, and they remained friends. 
She told him that she was not interested in sex, more than once.
I think its her choice if she just prefers to have him close and be caressed. 
Its his choice to accept that and do it or not.

If he cannot understand that _she does not want sex at this time_, then he should not get into bed with her.


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## Lon

I had a OSF that was a roomate - strictly platonic. One saturday morning she busted into my room and cuddled up beside me.

I was terrified, lol, all naked under the blankets, and didn't know what she was going for.

We're still very good friends... and never specifically mention that event ever, but both know exactly why she came in my room. (ftr we were both single at the time, but there was no way in hell I was going to jeopardize my amazing roomate situation, plus our other female room-mate who was attached is whom I had the real crush on).


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## unbelievable

Caribbean man, your anology isn't quite the same. She asked you to her home, allegedly for some attempted break-in. Ending up there or in the same bed was not an idea that originated between your own ears. I will concede there are some women on earth I would not be even slightly interested in nailing. If I coax a woman into a bed with me, though, she can safely assume I would be happy to do her every way from Sunday.


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## unbelievable

Lon, I notice you didn't say you felt no sexual attraction for her. Sounds like you immediately sized her up as a sexual partner and weighed the costs and benefits. You just decided the costs were too great. Like Caribbean Man's tale, it was the woman's choice that put you into the same bed. Have you ever invited yourself over to a woman's house and invited yourself into her bed without feeling sexual attraction for her? Ever (of your own free choosing) snuggled with a woman you found sexually repulsive?


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## Caribbean Man

unbelievable said:


> Caribbean man, your anology isn't quite the same. She asked you to her home, allegedly for some attempted break-in. Ending up there or in the same bed was not an idea that originated between your own ears. I will concede there are some women on earth I would not be even slightly interested in nailing. If I coax a woman into a bed with me, though, she can safely assume I would be happy to do her every way from Sunday.


And I agree with you.
However,the OP did say that there was a history between them.
And they came to a certain understanding BEFORE.

OK.
This is how I used to operate.
We are friends , but it looks like girl is interested by her actions. She's sending mixed signals.
I ALWAYS asked " what do you want?"
If she responds " just friends" then I put her in my
" friend zone " and MOVED ON . 
If she wanted sex after that then she would have to tell me exactly what she wanted.
I would then choose to respond yes or no.

BTW, the friend whose apt I went by was attractive!
But I didn't desire her in that way.


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## PBear

To the OP... I'm surprised you didn't feel "his point" at some time in the sleepover. . He's trying to get in your panties, and you're not giving him strong enough signals for him to stop trying.

Guyspeak 101: when it comes to sex, be firm and direct if you're trying to say no. Being wishy-washy is the same as saying "please try later".

C


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## Lon

unbelievable said:


> Lon, I notice you didn't say you felt no sexual attraction for her. Sounds like you immediately sized her up as a sexual partner and weighed the costs and benefits. You just decided the costs were too great. Like Caribbean Man's tale, it was the woman's choice that put you into the same bed. Have you ever invited yourself over to a woman's house and invited yourself into her bed without feeling sexual attraction for her? Ever (of your own free choosing) snuggled with a woman you found sexually repulsive?


Yes I had sized her up long before the moment she jumped on my bed. I could have had sex with her, it would have been gratifying, there was some sexual attraction and obviously a lot of respect too, but when I weighed the costs I wasn't prepared to risk the room-mate status (I was also not very long out of a LTR with my HSS). The main reason I had commented though, wasn't because of my actions or in actions, it was because SHE had sized ME up too, and wanted to jump my bones, and was sending me that signal by jumping onto my bed. That it doesn't matter who is the one initiating bed-sharing/cuddle-time, it is a clear signal that they would like more.


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## Caribbean Man

lovelygirl said:


> OSF = opposite sex friend.
> 
> 
> *Even when we had separate beds he would always get into my bed.*
> *In the past, we had discussed about being in a relationship together but I rejected the idea due to his instability when in a relationship and WE agreed not to take it further.*
> *So, we don't come up with the idea of being in a relationship together anymore and I think we're indifferent to this idea.*
> 
> *Fast forward , he asked me again today to go over at his place but I'm still hesitant.*


I don't see anything " wishy washy" in the OP's attitude.
I think she was very clear. She does not want to have sex with him at this time.

Can't they be friends without him constantly trying to have sex with her?
She has already set _her _boundaries and rules, he either accepts it or move on .


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## PBear

The wishy-washy part is allowing the behavior to continue without kneeing him in the groin. Or ignoring his calls. She DOESN'T have a boundary, or if she does, she's not enforcing it, which is worse than not having one in the first place.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Caribbean Man

I don't see why she has to " knee him in the groin" to enforce her boundaries , especially IF both of them have been friends for years.

My wife was a virgin when we both got together. She told me she DID NOT want to have sex BEFORE marriage. I respected that ,I AGREED to her boundaries. Because I wanted her to be my wife.
We were together for ONE YEAR before marriage and we NEVER HAD SEX.
Many times she just wanted me to lie with her in her bed ,and just hold her, which I did, without assuming that we SHOULD have sex, or that her boundaries were weak.

I understood her boundaries, I understood that she wanted affection and not sex at that moment, so I gave it to her.

We didn't have sex until marriage.

Nothing wishy washy about her boundaries.


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## unbelievable

lovelygirl said:


> He brought up the idea. I joined the discussion but then gave it an end.


Wow, I'm psychic. Dogs bark, fish swim, and guys try to get in your drawers.


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## Maricha75

Caribbean Man said:


> *I don't see why she has to " knee him in the groin" to enforce her boundaries , especially IF both of them have been friends for years.*
> 
> My wife was a virgin when we both got together. She told me she DID NOT want to have sex BEFORE marriage. I respected that ,I AGREED to her boundaries. Because I wanted her to be my wife.
> We were together for ONE YEAR before marriage and we NEVER HAD SEX.
> Many times she just wanted me to lie with her in her bed ,and just hold her, which I did, without assuming that we SHOULD have sex, or that her boundaries were weak.
> 
> I understood her boundaries, I understood that she wanted affection and not sex at that moment, so I gave it to her.
> 
> We didn't have sex until marriage.
> 
> Nothing wishy washy about her boundaries.


First, LG isn't your wife...totally different person, totally different circumstances. 

Second, the "knee to the groin" comment is due to the fact that LG's OSF isn't getting the picture, because she HAS continued to stay overnight at various times, etc. She isn't giving him the clear cut "knock it off, I'm not interested, it makes me uncomfortable, these are MY BOUNDARIES, RESPECT THEM!" If she did that, she wouldn't have to be asking the question here in the first place!


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## SimplyAmorous

Maricha75 said:


> First, LG isn't your wife...totally different person, totally different circumstances.
> 
> Second, the "knee to the groin" comment is due to the fact that LG's OSF isn't getting the picture, because she HAS continued to stay overnight at various times, etc. She isn't giving him the clear cut "knock it off, I'm not interested, it makes me uncomfortable, these are MY BOUNDARIES, RESPECT THEM!" If she did that, she wouldn't have to be asking the question here in the first place!


Yeah, I think women are often "too nice" to really say what they mean (I've never had this problem by the way)....and men get very confused.... they hold onto hope (because they want too)... you almost need to be *RUDE* and in their face about it. 

Terrible analogy I suppose, but when I worked in tellecomunications...I was monitored & had to keep these people on the phone line, didn't matter what they said to me, all that endless complaining they had no $$, it's been a bad week... I was to KEEP TRYING TO get them to donate to the cause so long as we had a connection...... I was always irritated with those who were trying to be nice to me, listening to my whole spill - then quietly said "NO thank you" ...

Basically all they did was WASTE MY TIME... I much preferred the ones who said "Not interested" & hung up on me - even getting rude with me... at least then I could move on to someone who might donate. 

Don't be wishy washy, tell him like it is and don't give the man any hope at all. Not even a cracked door.


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## Lyris

He's hoping to pressure you into to changing your mind, probably because he doesn't believe what you said. And you're sending him mixed messages by telling him no but allowing him to touch and caress you.

Anyway, no, obviously it's not normal to behave like this with a platonic friend. You need to think about why you don't feel confident enough to set a strong boundary around physical contact. Ie tell him to knock it off and if he continues, get up and leave.


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## Caribbean Man

Maricha75 said:


> First, LG isn't your wife...totally different person, totally different circumstances.
> 
> Second, the "knee to the groin" comment is due to the fact that LG's OSF isn't getting the picture, because she HAS continued to stay overnight at various times, etc. She isn't giving him the clear cut "knock it off, I'm not interested, it makes me uncomfortable, these are MY BOUNDARIES, RESPECT THEM!" If she did that, she wouldn't have to be asking the question here in the first place!


First of all, LG doesn't have to be my wife, but she is in a similar place where my wife was. SHE DOES NOT WANT SEX AT THIS TIME.

Obviously she likes the guy and trust him to a certain extent.[ hence the mixed signals]
But she DOES NOT WANT SEX AT THIS TIME.

Maybe if her friend " tried a little less harder",at getting into her pants, and worked on what went wrong in the relationship,
LG wouldn't have to kick him in the groin.
And she would be singing a different tune.

The harder he tries to get into her pants, the more she would resist, because there is bad history between them that's affecting her. She wants him,she likes him [ mixed signals] but she does not trust him.


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## SlowlyGettingWiser

> he keeps on telling me that I should *free myself from complexities and be more easy going*.


 Okay, I'm not a guy, but I'm sure that *THIS* is guy-speak for "loosen up and let's be:



sex-buddies
screw-buddies
fvck-buddies
bed-buddies
friends with benefits"
however you choose to phrase it.


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## unbelievable

To a guy, not saying "no" means saying "yes". For some guys, even saying "no" means "maybe". You essentially believe he is sending conflicting messages but you are, too. If I was in bed with a woman and she....1. Let me join her in bed. 2. Let me rub all over her. 3. Didn't firmly toss me out when I asked her for sex..
I'd get the idea that she was on the fence about the topic and just needed a little more convincing. Again, the words didn't match the actions and he naturally believes your actions (which were submissive and compliant). Now, if you had told him you weren't interested in sex, threw him out of bed, and kicked him in the groin, he would have clearly understood you weren't interested. That's pretty much the universal language of sexual denial.


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## Maricha75

Caribbean Man said:


> First of all, LG doesn't have to be my wife, but she is in a similar place where my wife was. SHE DOES NOT WANT SEX AT THIS TIME.
> 
> Obviously she likes the guy and trust him to a certain extent.[ hence the mixed signals]
> But she DOES NOT WANT SEX AT THIS TIME.
> 
> Maybe if her friend " tried a little less harder",at getting into her pants, and worked on what went wrong in the relationship,
> LG wouldn't have to kick him in the groin.
> And she would be singing a different tune.
> 
> The harder he tries to get into her pants, the more she would resist, because there is bad history between them that's affecting her. She wants him,she likes him [ mixed signals] but she does not trust him.


Sigh... My point was that if she truly does NOT want a sexual relationship with him, not now, not ever, then a knee to the groin, so to speak, is what it will take to get him to back off. Yes, I understand that she likely DOES want something on some level. If she did not, she wouldn't send the mixed signals. But if we go by her words alone, stating that she wants friendship only, then she needs to stop sending the signals and tell him to back off...

This is what I meant when I said she's not like your wife. Did your wife say "no way, no how"? Or was it merely "not yet, I want to wait"? Did your wife say she had no interest in having any sort of relationship with you, beyond friendship? Because, except for the actions of LG, that is what she is saying (in words) to this guy... that she doesn't want more than friendship. 

Regardless, I think we are in agreement that if she truly doesn't want that kind of relationship with this guy, she needs to enforce her boundaries... which means no more false hope, be firm, etc. Yes?


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## RandomDude

> Do any of you guys do this with you OSF if you're single? Did you use to in the past?
> Would you?


In the past women came in categories

- Friends
- Casual only
- Potentials

The friends I wouldn't even think of doing anything physical either than a hug. And no I would not sleep on the same bed as them. The other category is FWB, or NSA (No strings attached) casual relationships. The final are the potential prospects for dates/relationships.

The way he's treating and looking at you seems to be on a FWB level.

If you don't want the sex however, you have to back off and leave him alone. You will risk losing the friendship but there's nothing else you can do. If you keep seeing him he's just going to be led on to think he still has a chance. Give him a break and let him find a real f-buddy.


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## PBear

Caribbean Man said:


> I don't see why she has to " knee him in the groin" to enforce her boundaries , especially IF both of them have been friends for years.
> 
> My wife was a virgin when we both got together. She told me she DID NOT want to have sex BEFORE marriage. I respected that ,I AGREED to her boundaries. Because I wanted her to be my wife.
> We were together for ONE YEAR before marriage and we NEVER HAD SEX.
> Many times she just wanted me to lie with her in her bed ,and just hold her, which I did, without assuming that we SHOULD have sex, or that her boundaries were weak.
> 
> I understood her boundaries, I understood that she wanted affection and not sex at that moment, so I gave it to her.
> 
> We didn't have sex until marriage.
> 
> Nothing wishy washy about her boundaries.


The "knee to the groin" comment was intended tongue in cheek, and that obviously didn't come across. But my point is to set a boundary and enforce. Not keep climbing into bed with him. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lovelygirl

You guys are right and I understand the point you're trying to reach.
There are two reasons why I haven't been so firm about my boundaries:

- I always thought it's kind of rude to tell my long time friend to get out of my bed. Although one time, while caressing me ..he was trying to reach my breasts and I said "Stop it _(guys name)_! you're crossing the line here! Please keep the distance." This was the time when he was REALLY crossing the line.

- He is definitely a hot guy. I'm sure we have both had (unsaid) sexual fantasies about each other. I don't have a problem imagining us together in bed ...but to me he's just a fantasy...!

The night he was caressing me, my vagina said "Open your legs". My brain said "keep them uncrossed". So I had to go with the latter. Although my heart was beating, the blood was pumping, my muscles were trembling.., but I needed to think cold. That's the battle I have to do every-time we share the same bed.

But when I think about how I would feel the morning after sex..I'm sure I'd feel ugly and dirty inside. 
Why put myself in that situation when I have the chance to avoid it? 

But I can't deny that the caressing/touching feels so damn good.
It's what stops me from being 110% firm.


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## lovelygirl

RandomDude said:


> Give him a break and let him find a real f-buddy.


You are being unfair here. It's not that I stop him from having a f-buddy. Actually, he has had many of them during all the years we've known each other. He's also been in many relationship at this time. So he hasn't stopped doing anything because of me. He has his life, and I have mind.

FWB is not an option for me. Not even close. It could be for him but I'm sure he will be left only fantasizing about it.


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## Maricha75

Perhaps you should have this talk with him then, LG. He is obviously picking up on the nonverbal signals. You need to explain to him your reasons for NOT pursuing anything with him.

And, there is absolutely NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING wrong with setting firm boundaries with friends... be they SSF or OSF. It doesn't matter. Your boundaries are yours. And, it is up to you to keep them in place or change them. And, if having a FWB relationship with this man would be a bad choice for you, then you will NEED to enforce this boundary. If he really is a TRUE FRIEND, he will understand this, back off, and not push you into something like this.


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## Caribbean Man

lovelygirl said:


> You guys are right and I understand the point you're trying to reach.
> There are two reasons why I haven't been so firm about my boundaries:
> 
> - I always thought it's kind of rude to tell my long time friend to get out of my bed. Although one time, while caressing me ..he was trying to reach my breasts and I said "Stop it _(guys name)_! you're crossing the line here! Please keep the distance." This was the time when he was REALLY crossing the line.
> 
> - *He is definitely a hot guy. I'm sure we have both had (unsaid) sexual fantasies about each other. I don't have a problem imagining us together in bed ...but to me he's just a fantasy...!*
> 
> *The night he was caressing me, my vagina said "Open your legs". My brain said "keep them uncrossed". So I had to go with the latter. Although my heart was beating, the blood was pumping, my muscles were trembling.., but I needed to think cold. That's the battle I have to do every-time we share the same bed.
> 
> But when I think about how I would feel the morning after sex..I'm sure I'd feel ugly and dirty inside.
> Why put myself in that situation when I have the chance to avoid it?
> 
> But I can't deny that the caressing/touching feels so damn good.
> It's what stops me from being 110% firm.*


^^^^^^^
I am pretty surprised that the women on the thread couldn't see what you just said in this paragraph.

Which is what I have been saying.
IMO, you like this guy but do not trust him enough to have sex with him because you will feel used.

You prefer sex in a committed relationship.

Am I right or wrong?


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## Caribbean Man

I think she has already talked to him .
She told him no sex.


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## lovelygirl

Maricha75 said:


> Perhaps you should have this talk with him then, LG. He is obviously picking up on the nonverbal signals. You need to explain to him your reasons for NOT pursuing anything with him.


I have been perfectly clear when we had the discussion about pursuing a relationship together. I told him the reasons why I didn't want to get with him. 
Although, I have changed over the years and have become more close/affectionate/flirty..not only with him but with guys in general? :scratchhead:
I should just remind him a few things. 

But I don't put all the blame on him.


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## SimplyAmorous

Why isn't HE good enough for you Lovely Girl ??

Do you feel he is a User.... why wouldn't you want to be best friends and Lovers with a HOT Guy [email protected]#$%^&*


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## lovelygirl

Caribbean Man said:


> ^^^^^^^
> I am pretty surprised that the women on the thread couldn't see what you just said in this paragraph.
> 
> Which is what I have been saying.
> IMO, you like this guy but do not trust him enough to have sex with him because you will feel used.
> 
> You prefer sex in a committed relationship.
> 
> Am I right or wrong?


You are hundred percent right!
I would welcome everything from him if we were in a relationship together. I accept everything IF in a relationship.


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## RandomDude

Haha!

Reminds me of the time when I was with my stepsister, heh those were good times. Zero blood relation yet all the forbiddenness!!! Sexual fantasies left unsaid for so long, the tension! the flirts that come out unexpectedly, heh I should meet your friend, give him a few pointers, reaching for the kill is a bad move and he should know this, the tease is much more effective hehe

As for the dirty/ugly feeling, I'm surprised, but then I again I did play a different game back in those days, always made the woman in question feel comfortable and believing there's no consequences - and there weren't. If he does have integrity which it seems so otherwise you probably wouldn't put up with him for years -> I doubt he'll let you feel dirty the morning after.

Sorry... just brought back fond memories heh - but anyways, you have to make a decision. Either go for it, or cut it loose. I don't know if he really minds either way actually - I know I didn't, it was quite fun for me lol.


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## lovelygirl

SimplyAmorous said:


> Why isn't HE good enough for you Lovely Girl ??
> 
> Do you feel he is a User.... why wouldn't you want to be best friends and Lovers with a HOT Guy [email protected]#$%^&*


I wouldn't say he is a user. No way. Actually, he treats girls with respect and that's one of good traits he has. 
The problem is that he's very unstable. His relationships go no longer than a year and most of the time they are superficial. 
He puts too much importance on the physical appearance and has no problem jumping from one relationship to another without having a second thought. I'm sure he'd left me hurt that's why I try to protect myself from him as much as I can.


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## lovelygirl

RandomDude said:


> As for the dirty/ugly feeling, I'm surprised, but then I again I did play a different game back in those days, always made the woman in question feel comfortable and believing there's no consequences - and there weren't. If he does have integrity which it seems so otherwise you probably wouldn't put up with him for years -> I doubt he'll let you feel dirty the morning after.


Yeah, I'm sure he wouldn't let me feel dirty in the morning..but still...it's just me who doesn't accept the idea of being part of a FWB game. Not my type, not my cup of tea. 
I would have to go out of my way. I wouldn't feel like myself.
That's not me.


----------



## Caribbean Man

lovelygirl said:


> You are hundred percent right!
> I would welcome everything from him if we were in a relationship together. I accept everything IF in a relationship.



My suggestion to you LG, is to shut off this guy.
You obviously have feelings for him.
But you have given enough chances to show you that her loves and respects you.
*A REAL man knows a REAL woman when he sees her.*
I have LIVED it so I know what I'm talking about. Some men NEVER grow up.
You have already given him limited access to your body,and he didn't want to respect your boundaries.
He isn't worth it.
He is just after sex with you,and he doesn't want commitment.

You are a beautiful , smart, educated woman,[ I have seen your pics].
There is some other guy out there that you can share your love with who will RESPECT your body and your values.


----------



## RandomDude

Careful now, if you keep resisting him he may just fall in love with you lol

As I mentioned before in the categories, FWBs do have a chance to become potentials, showing that you stand by your convictions and refuse to allow temptation to rule you = girlfriend/wife material.

And that's how "players" are tamed, when they actually meet a woman who ain't like the rest. I met a woman like that once...


----------



## Maricha75

CM, I am not sure if you are purposely not understanding what I am saying or if you just like being contrary. 

I believe I said IF we went by ONLY her words... yes, it is clear that she is telling him with body language that she has interest in him. One would have to be completely obtuse to not see that. But, she has stated she doesn't want that kind of relationship with him and she needs to set clear boundaries and enforce them, if that is what she truly wants. 

FWIW, the reply you quoted and said you were surprised that we women in this thread haven't seen this, etc... was posted while I was writing my reply to her. The talk was had before and he either didn't believe her and wanted to see how far he can push or he sees she has changed a bit and wants to see how far he can get NOW. Either way, LG, if serious about not wanting a casual relationship with him, you need to have another chat with him and enforce those boundaries.


----------



## Lon

lovelygirl said:


> I wouldn't say he is a user. No way. Actually, he treats girls with respect and that's one of good traits he has.
> The problem is that he's very unstable. *His relationships go no longer than a year and most of the time they are superficial.*
> He puts too much importance on the physical appearance and has no problem jumping from one relationship to another without having a second thought. I'm sure he'd left me hurt that's why I try to protect myself from him as much as I can.


:scratchhead:

If he is giving a year of his life to a woman, it is not superficial.

Sounds like he just has high standards, and as he discovers many of the physically attractive ones he's with really aren't up to par intellectually, it just doesn't work out for him. No wonder he's being trying to go for you all this time.

As for trying out many relationships, well history does matter (as we saw on the other thread) but it's not the quantity but rather the rationale behind it. If this guy is so unsuitable as a potential mate, how can you be such close friends with him? If he was to demonstrate that he can be a committed partner would you then be at all interested? Has he ever indicated he wants to find the woman for him to make his W?

I guess I'm wondering what you are waiting for... (and I'm certainly not suggesting to devalue yourself, just making sure you aren't missing out on something really special for equally superficial reasons).


----------



## Jack29

If I were you id make up my mind pretty quick one way or the other because as it is right now its keeping you from being able to see other guys. And if you meet some guy youre attracted to right away and you want to date good luck explaining to him you werent fvck buddies with this first guy! I know i wouldnt believe you!

I'm sorry im sounding harsh here i just want to make you see the situation from a point of view you maybe had not considered!


----------



## SimplyAmorous

Here is what I think... seriously....you should go rent this movie ....








 Just Friends:  ...snuggle up to each other watching it.. 

...this should open up an interesting conversation after the fact...cause I think there might be something there... you aren't getting any younger... you are attracted to him, maybe he is AFRAID to lose you as a friend... and well you are both too darn bashful to let each other know how you *really* feel (or you're still trying to figure this out) - not wanting to jeopardize what you already have.

Possible Lovely Girl ??


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## RandomDude

Imagine the awkwardness! Yes!!! Do it! lol


----------



## Lon

SimplyAmorous said:


> Here is what I think... seriously....you should go rent this movie ....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just Friends:  ...snuggle up to each other watching it..


off topic, but they filmed parts of that in my old city when I lived there 

(that is one of my annoying habits, is pointing out every movie that was made where I've lived, including pointing out locations I've been to and sharing my experiences at those places).


----------



## lovelygirl

Caribbean Man said:


> You obviously have feelings for him.


Feelings? I wouldn't consider them feelings. It's not that I think about him day n' night or it's not that my heart beats everytime I see him. 
Let me tell you something else. It's true there's this sexual tension when he touches/caresses me at night ...but I start fantasizing about some other [unknown] guy created by my fantasy and that's what feels good. I imagine someone who loves me, standing there next to me, cuddling up with me. 
I don't imagine me and him (my friend) as a happy couple, but I imagine another random fantasy guy. So I'm afraid I have feelings for the fantasy ...and not for my friend personally. 

It's almost the same has making love to/having sex with your wife while imagining someone else instead of her.

You get my point? 



RandomDude said:


> Careful now, if you keep resisting him he may just fall in love with you lol
> 
> As I mentioned before in the categories, FWBs do have a chance to become potentials, showing that you stand by your convictions and refuse to allow temptation to rule you = girlfriend/wife material.
> 
> And that's how "players" are tamed, when they actually meet a woman who ain't like the rest. I met a woman like that once...


I have thought about that too but I don't think he is about to fall in love.
Physically-wise I don't really think I'm his type of girl. He likes tall girls with big boobs. I'm far away from that. 

Personally-wise? 
This got me thinking. We share common interests.




Maricha75 said:


> . yes, it is clear that she is telling him with body language that she has interest in him.


As I previously said, I'm not sure if I have interest in him or if I'm interested in another image I created of him.


----------



## RandomDude

> I have thought about that too but I don't think he is about to fall in love.
> Physically-wise I don't really think I'm his type of girl. He likes tall girls with big boobs. I'm far away from that.
> 
> Personally-wise?
> This got me thinking. We share common interests.


Oh come on now, in the past I only liked girls with either dark or dark red/auburn hair and pretty much was only really sexually attracted to either asian/brown/ebony skinned beauties -> but then I found myself married to a freakin blonde.

There are some women who just grow on a man, and make him forget whatever physical standards that he had prior to falling in love.


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## lovelygirl

Lon, I'd have to say you made great points. I found myself judging him only after reading your posts.
While he has been in some 1-year-oldish relationships, I have been in a 9-monthish relationship myself - 3 years ago. 
It was the one and only so what would someone have to say about me ? lol. Would they call me superficial?
And I haven't been in any other relationship since then. Why? Because I'm picky and I don't want to have a boyfriend just for the sake of saying that I'm not single and that I'm taken. 



Lon said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> If he is giving a year of his life to a woman, it is not superficial.


It could be true, although I really put an emphasis on *quantity* and not quality. 
You can be with someone 6 months but when they give you their all, that's what really matter in the end. 
You can be with him for 12 months but when he sees you once in a while ..then that's not really a relationship. 




> Sounds like he just has high standards, and as he discovers many of the physically attractive ones he's with really aren't up to par intellectually, it just doesn't work out for him. No wonder he's being trying to go for you all this time.


He does have standards. Even when he wants to bang someone, he's picky about it. But it's what you said..., even if they are physically attractive he finds out they're not compatible. I remember him telling me this. 


> If this guy is so unsuitable as a potential mate, how can you be such close friends with him?


Because he is friendly, caring, treats me with respect , he's frank...
he has not problem opening up to me about many things..
and we share common interests about some things.


> If he was to demonstrate that he can be a committed partner would you then be at all interested?


This got me thinking. 
Yes, I'd be interested.



> Has he ever indicated he wants to find the woman for him to make his W?


He has indicated before that he wished he found a woman who could be everything to him - smart and beautiful. But I don't why I always had the idea in my head that he doesn't deserve such woman. Have I judged him unfairly?
Now that you ask I'm recalling all the talks we've had in the past.



> *I guess I'm wondering what you are waiting for*... (and I'm certainly not suggesting to devalue yourself, just making sure you aren't missing out on something really special for equally superficial reasons).


I don't know what I'm waiting for. Maybe I should re-thinking being in a relationship with him?
Why do I have this idea in my head that he will let me get hurt if I get with him...


----------



## lovelygirl

Jack29 said:


> If I were you id make up my mind pretty quick one way or the other because as it is right now its keeping you from being able to see other guys.


No, not really. 
We've both been free to date during all these years. He has dated a lot .
While me, not so much. But it's not because of him.




> And if you meet some guy youre attracted to right away and you want to date good luck explaining to him you werent fvck buddies with this first guy! I know i wouldnt believe you!


Disagree. My hymen is still there. It's a good proof to show I haven't fVcked anyone in my life so far. 



> I'm sorry im sounding harsh here i just want to make you see the situation from a point of view you maybe had not considered!


It's ok. I understand your point.


----------



## couple

I don't think it matters if cuddling with a 'friend' is normal or not. If it feels good to you, do it if not, don't.

If you enjoy it but it leaves you feeling bad in the end or creates confusion in your friendship that you don't like, then don't do it.

There is a lot more to this than just whether to share a bed and cuddle or not. You should probably reframe the 'problem' in your head or you'll never be able to move forward. I find it interesting that there is a lot of complexity in this relationship but you've come here simply asking if it's normal to share a bed with someone who is 'just a friend'. This is not the issue.


----------



## Malaise

lovelygirl said:


> You guys are right and I understand the point you're trying to reach.
> There are two reasons why I haven't been so firm about my boundaries:
> 
> - I always thought it's kind of rude to tell my long time friend to get out of my bed. Although one time, while caressing me ..he was trying to reach my breasts and I said "Stop it _(guys name)_! you're crossing the line here! Please keep the distance." This was the time when he was REALLY crossing the line.
> 
> - He is definitely a hot guy. I'm sure we have both had (unsaid) sexual fantasies about each other. I don't have a problem imagining us together in bed ...but to me he's just a fantasy...!
> 
> *The night he was caressing me, my vagina said "Open your legs". My brain said "keep them uncrossed". So I had to go with the latter. Although my heart was beating, the blood was pumping, my muscles were trembling.., but I needed to think cold. That's the battle I have to do every-time we share the same bed.*
> But when I think about how I would feel the morning after sex..I'm sure I'd feel ugly and dirty inside.
> Why put myself in that situation when I have the chance to avoid it?
> 
> But I can't deny that the caressing/touching feels so damn good.
> It's what stops me from being 110% firm.


LG

You realize that eventually the V will win out. If that's what you want then keep doing the same thing.

If in the clear light of day you decide that you never want this than just stop giving in.

It's one or the other.


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## Caribbean Man

couple said:


> I don't think it matters if cuddling with a 'friend' is normal or not. If it feels good to you, do it if not, don't.
> 
> If you enjoy it but it leaves you feeling bad in the end or creates confusion in your friendship that you don't like, then don't do it.
> 
> *There is a lot more to this than just whether to share a bed and cuddle or not. You should probably reframe the 'problem' in your head or you'll never be able to move forward. I find it interesting that there is a lot of complexity in this relationship but you've come here simply asking if it's normal to share a bed with someone who is 'just a friend'. This is not the issue.*


:iagree:

This is what I've been trying to get at.
IMO, she is sexually attracted to this guy, but she wants romance , love and sex.
He wants just casual sex.
In her mind, the man she wants to have sex with must love her in a certain kind of way, and she will give him
" everything."


----------



## livnlearn

Caribbean Man said:


> I think she has already talked to him .
> She told him no sex.


Then she needs to not get in the same bed with him! I'm sure LG truly IS a lovely girl, but nonetheless she is playing games. Clearly she knows he considers her more then a friend and so it can be said in no uncertain terms she is leading him on, first by getting in the bed to begin with, and second by allowing him to touch her. Why anyone would side with or defend her feelings on this is beyond me.:scratchhead:


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## jaquen

lovelygirl said:


> OSF = opposite sex friend.
> 
> So there's this very-long-time OSF of mine [for whom I've talked about a few times here].
> Since he moved into my city a couple of months ago, he has asked me several times [almost every week] to go over at his apartment, to watch a movie and spend the night there.
> 
> On a side note to give some history: We have shared beds together in the past. Nothing has really happened except for him cuddling up with me and caressing me during the night....but neither have I responded nor have I rejected. This happened whenever we used to travel while always ended up getting one hotel room in order not to spend money.
> Even when we had separate beds he would always get into my bed.
> In the past, we had discussed about being in a relationship together but I rejected the idea due to his instability when in a relationship and WE *agreed* not to take it further.
> So, we don't come up with the idea of being in a relationship together anymore and _I think _we're indifferent to this idea.
> 
> Fast forward , he asked me again today to go over at his place but I'm still hesitant.
> What is the point really? Why should two OSF sleep in the same bed when there are chances to avoid this? What's the point of him caressing me, cuddling up with me, kissing my cheek and neck at night, touching my back and arms ..massaging them, ... when he's just a friend?
> 
> To me, that's not a friendly act. It's what lovers do.
> He says there's nothing wrong and that's how really close friends act. Is it true? Am I wrong?
> 
> Do any of you guys do this with you OSF if you're single? Did you use to in the past?
> Would you?


Take some responsibility. You say:

*"We have shared beds together in the past. Nothing has really happened except for him cuddling up with me and caressing me during the night....but neither have I responded nor have I rejected."

"Even when we had separate beds he would always get into my bed."

"What's the point of him caressing me, cuddling up with me, kissing my cheek and neck at night, touching my back and arms ..massaging them, ... when he's just a friend?"

Unless this man is perpetuating the slowest rape in the history of humanity, he's not doing this in a bubble. You have a history of letting him crawl into your bed, where he proceeds to kiss you, cuddle you, and caress you. You allowed this, so on some level you wanted this. What did you get from all this free, "platonic" affection?*

Come on now. Of course he wants to sleep with you, and quite frankly your actions are making it very clear that you're open to it.

If you have no interest at all in sex with a man, stop letting him in your BED!


----------



## Caribbean Man

livnlearn said:


> Then she needs to not get in the same bed with him! I'm sure LG truly IS a lovely girl, but nonetheless she is playing games. Clearly she knows he considers her more then a friend and so it can be said in no uncertain terms she is leading him on, first by getting in the bed to begin with, and second by allowing him to touch her. *Why anyone would side with or defend her feelings on this is beyond me.*:scratchhead:


Because its her body and she decides what when, and under what circumstances she wants anything to enter into any orifice of her body.


----------



## livnlearn

Caribbean Man said:


> Because its her body and she decides what when, and under what circumstances she wants anything to enter into any orifice of her body.


I'm a woman so trust me, I get that. It still doesn't make her behavior right. She is sending mixed messages and game-playing.


----------



## jaquen

Caribbean Man said:


> You obviously have feelings for him.


Her "feelings" for him are in her panties. She's a virgin, her body is crying out for touch, and he's a "hot guy". That's why she's playing this teasing game. She lets him crawl into her bed because she wants to taste the "forbidden fruit" without having to commit to the entire dinner. She loves the feeling of his arms wrapped around her, their bodies pressed against one another. She's enjoying the heat, and the spark, without the fire.

The girl ain't in love, she's in full blown lust -virgin style.


----------



## Caribbean Man

jaquen said:


> Her "feelings" for him are in her panties. She's a virgin, her body is crying out for touch, and he's a "hot guy". That's why she's playing this teasing game. She lets him crawl into her bed because she wants to taste the "forbidden fruit" without having to commit to the entire dinner. She loves the feeling of his arms wrapped around her, their bodies pressed against one another. She's enjoying the heat, and the spark, without the fire.
> 
> *The girl ain't in love, she's in full blown lust -virgin style.*


Is she wrong to have those " feelings in her panties?"
NO.
Is she wrong to desire his body against hers, because she think's he's "hot?"
NO.
Is she wrong to play that " teasing game ?"
NO
Is she wrong to say that she does not want sex AT THIS TIME WITH HIM?
NO.


I have played this same game with women before.
I have always won.
The guy is moving like a neanderthal, without any finesse.

LG wants to have sex with him.
He wants to have sex with her.
So what is the problem?
LG has options if she just wants to " have sex." But, she has these romantic fantasies in her head about the first ,man she wants to have sex with.She wants it to be * special *
He does not share her fantasies. He only wants sex. Is it that difficult for a guy to realize that he is the first , and she wants to make it * special *?
Does he think that he is the ONLY man who could have sex with her?

LG is not a 15 year old , just discovering her sexuality. She is a fully grown woman who KNOWS WHAT SHE WANTS.

The problem is not with LG, because she WANTS TO HAVE SEX, but she has conditions.
The problem is with him. He wants to have sex, but does not want to meet any of her "conditions."

If LG wanted sex [ only ] so badly, then she would have done it long ago.


----------



## livnlearn

Caribbean Man said:


> Is she wrong to have those " feelings in her panties?"
> NO.
> Is she wrong to desire his body against hers, because she think's he's "hot?"
> NO.
> Is she wrong to play that " teasing game ?"
> NO
> Is she wrong to say that she does not want sex AT THIS TIME WITH HIM?
> NO.
> 
> 
> I have played this same game with women before.
> I have always won.
> The guy is moving like a neanderthal, without any finesse.
> 
> LG wants to have sex with him.
> He wants to have sex with her.
> So what is the problem?
> LG has options if she just wants to " have sex." She has these romantic fantasies in her head about the first ,man she wants to have sex with.
> He does not share her fantasies. He only wants sex.
> 
> The problem is not with LG, because she WANTS TO HAVE SEX, but she has conditions.
> The problem is with him. He wants to have sex, but does not want to meet any of her "conditions."
> 
> If LG wanted sex [ only ] so badly, then she would have done it long ago.


:scratchhead: sometimes I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.


----------



## jaquen

This isn't about whether she has the right to tease him, and still say no. Of course she does. We're not talking about issues of rape and consent here.

But what's INCREDIBLE to me is that there is thread here 5-pages deep that originated with the premise of her being some naive, innocent little thing who just couldn't at all grasp why her "friend" wants to spend the night in her bed, all cuddled up.

He was in her bed because she wanted him there. Period. Cut the "do friends do this" nonsense. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the real issues going on here.

She wants to have her cake, and eat it too. Fine. But don't blame this guy at all for believing he gets to do the exact same thing.


----------



## Caribbean Man

jaquen said:


> This isn't about whether she has the right to tease him, and still say no. Of course she does. We're not talking about issues of rape and consent here.
> 
> *But what's INCREDIBLE to me is that there is thread here 5-pages deep that originated with the premise of her being some naive, innocent little thing who just couldn't at all grasp why her "friend" wants to spend the night in her bed, all cuddled up.
> *
> *He was in her bed because she wanted him there. Period. Cut the "do friends do this" nonsense. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the real issues going on here.
> *
> She wants to have her cake, and eat it too. Fine. But don't blame this guy at all for believing he gets to do the exact same thing.



I think we have already passed that.
She has admitted that she enjoys having him in her bed.

But the issues for her are way deeper than " having an OSF in the same bed."
It started off as that but the problem is the relationship between both of them.
He wants A [ A = sex ]
She wants A+B [ Sex + Romance ]


----------



## jaquen

Caribbean Man said:


> He wants A [ A = sex ]
> She wants A+B [ Sex + Romance ]


There is no problem here at all on his behalf. There is nothing wrong with wanting sex, and trying to get it from someone who is sending very clear signals that they're open.

If she doesn't want sex, or the possibility of him knocking at her panty's door, the solution is simple: stop inviting him into your bed. End of story.


----------



## lovelygirl

couple said:


> I don't think it matters if cuddling with a 'friend' is normal or not. If it feels good to you, do it if not, don't.
> 
> If you enjoy it but it leaves you feeling bad in the end or creates confusion in your friendship that you don't like, then don't do it.
> 
> There is a lot more to this than just whether to share a bed and cuddle or not. You should probably reframe the 'problem' in your head or you'll never be able to move forward. I find it interesting that there is a lot of complexity in this relationship but *you've come here simply asking if it's normal to share a bed with someone who is 'just a friend'. This is not the issue.*


Yeah, because I was trying to understand what he meant by his body language. It's confusing because he is not the first guy-friend acting with me this way.

When I was younger(19 at the time) there was another guy [still friends with him] who would always take my arm in his hands or put my hand on his hand and caress it while at a coffee shop or ask me to walk hand in hand (like lovers) with him on the street and even kiss my neck (?).
I found this really weird and slowly he was turning this into a habit with me and once when he wanted to take my hand again, I said "what are you doing? we're just friends" and then he said "that's okay. friends are affectionate with each other, aren't they? " 
He responded and acted as if what he was doing with me was normal, despite being just friends. :scratchhead:
I didn't know better at the time and accepted to walk hand in hand thinking "oh well..he could be right". But then I realized it was a stupid thing to do to act like that while being just friends. (Nothing happened with him btw)

Then, at 22 my now ex came into my life but he was way different. Not so affectionate before/during the relationship and that's what kept me from having sex with him. I wasn't looking just for the act of sex but more intimacy and appreciation. 

Now, my long time guy friend is different. He's very physical and he has no problem to show affection. But I'm afraid his approach has only one aim: Which is to have sex. I'm not sure he'll be the same once he gets what he wants.


----------



## lovelygirl

jaquen said:


> Her "feelings" for him are in her panties. She's a virgin, her body is crying out for touch, and he's a "hot guy". That's why she's playing this teasing game. She lets him crawl into her bed because she wants to taste the "forbidden fruit" without having to commit to the entire dinner. She loves the feeling of his arms wrapped around her, their bodies pressed against one another. She's enjoying the heat, and the spark, without the fire.
> 
> The girl ain't in love, she's in full blown lust -virgin style.


That's true and I don't deny it. I have already said it in the previous posts. This is not news to anyone here now.
ETA: And I said I don't blame him for everything.


----------



## Maricha75

LG, you have some very... uhhh... different guy friends. But, now that you have been informed of his LIKELY motives, it's on you to decide how to address it. If it's no, tell him "no way, no how, not happening." and don't spend the night/share a bed. If it's "because of history, I am not comfortable with this at this time" then that needs to be stated. Either way, you just need to lay it out there...again... and stick to the boundaries you lay out. No way around it. Or, you're going to keep having this situation crop up again and again...with more of your male friends.


----------



## jaquen

lovelygirl said:


> That's true and I don't deny it. I have already said it in the previous posts. This is not news to anyone here now.
> ETA: And I said I don't blame him for everything.


So what's the point of this thread?? It started off in the OP with you talking like some naive, clueless girl who just couldn't figure out why a big, bad man would want to come crawling into your bed when he was claiming to be just a friend.

Now that I've finished the thread (I hadn't when I made the comment you quoted) it's become clear with each passing post that you are no this naive, clueless girl you claimed to be. You do want him, you have been in similar situations before, and yet you still make the conscious choice to walk the line, tease, and play the game.

So what is really going on here Lovely Girl? I'm beginning to wonder if you just enjoy playing games like this with TAMers. Acting giggly, girlish, and naive about sexual matters that, upon further examination, you're not anywhere near as obtuse about.

You're a grown woman who is making a continual choice to be a virgin. Own it. You are not an oblivious 14 year old who knows nothing of the ways of the world, and the wiles of men. Stop playing games with grown men, and stop playing games with the people on this board.


----------



## Caribbean Man

lovelygirl said:


> Then, at 22 my now ex came into my life but he was way different. Not so affectionate before/during the relationship and that's what kept me from having sex with him. *I wasn't looking just for the act of sex but more intimacy and appreciation. *
> 
> *Now, my long time guy friend is different. He's very physical and he has no problem to show affection. But I'm afraid his approach has only one aim: Which is to have sex. I'm not sure he'll be the same once he gets what he wants.
> *



So I ask my question again.
What is so wrong about a woman wanting sex and intimacy at the same time?

What's so " twilight zoned" in her desiring to have sex with a man,whom she considers a friend , but cautious and worried about the outcome?
Is she wrong to feel this way?

OP, 
My advice to you is to dump this man.
Put your emotional energy in a building a new friendship and relationship.
You feelings are legitimate. Its YOUR body.
Find a man who will meet YOUR criteria.


----------



## SimplyAmorous

LovelyGirl, I would feel the same as you... and not settle for HALF of the







package... 

Follow your







...be your own woman and wait for the REAL deal wrapped in Romance, a man giving his all... heart, soul & body....to you...making his intentions known..... if you feel strongly. 

Nothing wrong with that! 

Maybe he'll come around... I feel sometimes it takes another to enter the friendship/love triangle....threatening whatever you have (??) to wake some people up....then suddenly he'll be ready to move heaven & earth to win you from this other guy.. realizing what he is about to lose... .or even Him moving on to another girl....if you find yourself feeling extremely jealous suddenly. 

Life & love is so much fun! Emotions always get in the way and complicate things. Trying to wade through our sexual urges screaming, what is best for us, our futures & our hearts /emotions.... God help any young person!


----------



## Caribbean Man

SimplyAmorous said:


> LovelyGirl, I would feel the same as you... and not settle for HALF of the
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> package...
> 
> Follow your
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *...be your own woman and wait for the REAL deal wrapped in Romance, a man giving his all... heart, soul & body....to you...making his intentions known..... if you feel strongly.
> 
> Nothing wrong with that! *
> 
> 
> Life & love is so much fun! Emotions always get in the way and complicate things. Trying to wade through our sexual urges screaming, what is best for us & our futures & our hearts /emotions.... God help any young person!


......I :iagree: 
Completely.


----------



## lovelygirl

Maricha75 said:


> LG, you have some very... uhhh... different guy friends. But, now that you have been informed of his LIKELY motives, it's on you to decide how to address it. If it's no, tell him "no way, no how, not happening." and don't spend the night/share a bed. If it's "because of history, I am not comfortable with this at this time" then that needs to be stated. Either way, you just need to lay it out there...again... and stick to the boundaries you lay out. No way around it. Or, you're going to keep having this situation crop up again and again...with more of your male friends.


I agree. I need to make things more clear around him again. 



jaquen said:


> So what's the point of this thread?? It started off in the OP with you talking like some naive, clueless girl who just couldn't figure out why a big, bad man would want to come crawling into your bed when he was claiming to be just a friend.
> 
> Now that I've finished the thread (I hadn't when I made the comment you quoted) it's become clear with each passing post that you are no this naive, clueless girl you claimed to be. You do want him, you have been in similar situations before, and yet you still make the conscious choice to walk the line, tease, and play the game.
> 
> So what is really going on here Lovely Girl? I'm beginning to wonder if you just enjoy playing games like this with TAMers. Acting giggly, girlish, and naive about sexual matters that, upon further examination, you're not anywhere near as obtuse about.
> 
> You're a grown woman who is making a continual choice to be a virgin. Own it. You are not an oblivious 14 year old who knows nothing of the ways of the world, and the wiles of men. Stop playing games with grown men, and stop playing games with the people on this board.


Jaquen, you are one of my favorite posters here but I feel very offended that you think I came here to play games. You are accusing me of being a troll and this is unfair. Why would I want to waste my time playing games in a forum I respect so much?

I created this thread because his requests have been bothering me _but I wasn't sure_ if his manners were normal given the VERY LONG TIME friendship we have. *Had it been just a random guy friend, I wouldn't have created this thread in the first place at all.* 
I didn't come here to play the naive and I don't want to. You are the one who made wrong assumptions about me.

I have been in a similar situations before BUT not with a CLOSE guy friend. The other guy I talked about was just a _random _friend and I soon realized it was stupid of him to act that way, because guy friends shouldn't get so close to female-friends if all they want to have is just the friendship.
The line he crossed was very clear to me given the not so close friendship we had/have. I didn't need to have second thoughts.


But with this CLOSE guy friend things are different and there's confusion. 
There are some things I allowed assuming that's the way close OSF go. 
I asked for a male perspective here because I thought there are some men who act this way with their close female friends and I didn't want to judge my OSF before knowing how it works with other males.
I gave him the benefit of the doubt because of the close friendship we have.* I didn't want to come off as judgmental in-front of him when he tells me "it's okay, that's how it goes". *
After this whole discussion, things are much more clear to me. 

I don't treat him as the big bad guy. I'm just trying to really see what type of mentality he has and if other males are just like him around close female friends. Apparently they aren't. So my guy friend is trying to get into my panties. It's not that I didn't think about it, I just wanted to be sure and have some outside input.

But you assuming me trying to play games goes out of line.


----------



## livnlearn

Caribbean Man said:


> What's so " twilight zoned" in her desiring to have sex with a man,whom she considers a friend , but cautious and worried about the outcome?
> Is she wrong to feel this way?


No disrespect at all to you CM, but my twilight zone comment was in reference to your argument. 

okay..here we go again... OF COURSE she isn't wrong to feel this way. She IS wrong to be going about it the way she is. She needs to grow up and have a conversation with this guy. They need to discuss how each of them views their relationship now, and what they would like it to be in the future. Would they both like to take it further, will they be able to remain friends should it not work out, etc. etc.. This is what mature, responsible people do. Until then she should stay out of bed with him!

It leaves me to wonder if you have a fondness for LG (I mean this in a totally TAM friend/acquaintance sort of way) that is clouding your judgement.  I wonder if an unknown poster appeared and described the exact same scenario, if you would be as willing to not only give her a "pass" on her poor judgement, but to argue on her behalf. ???


----------



## jaquen

lovelygirl said:


> Jaquen, you are one of my favorite posters here


And you are one of mine.



lovelygirl said:


> but I feel very offended


Understandable, my words were admittedly on the harsh side.



lovelygirl said:


> that you think I came here to play games. You are accusing me of being a troll and this is unfair. Why would I want to waste my time playing games in a forum I respect so much?
> 
> I created this thread because his requests have been bothering me _but I wasn't sure_ if his manners were normal given the VERY LONG TIME friendship we have. *Had it been just a random guy friend, I wouldn't have created this thread in the first place at all.*
> I didn't come here to play the naive and I don't want to. You are the one who made wrong assumptions about me.
> 
> I have been in a similar situations before BUT not with a CLOSE guy friend. The other guy I talked about was just a _random _friend and I soon realized it was stupid of him to act that way, because guy friends shouldn't get so close to female-friends if all they want to have is just the friendship.
> The line he crossed was very clear to me given the not so close friendship we had/have. I didn't need to have second thoughts.
> 
> 
> But with this CLOSE guy friend things are different and there's confusion.
> There are some things I allowed assuming that's the way close OSF go.
> I asked for a male perspective here because I thought there are some men who act this way with their close female friends and I didn't want to judge my OSF before knowing how it works with other males.
> I gave him the benefit of the doubt because of the close friendship we have.* I didn't want to come off as judgmental in-front of him when he tells me "it's okay, that's how it goes". *
> After this whole discussion, things are much more clear to me.
> 
> I don't treat him as the big bad guy. I'm just trying to really see what type of mentality he has and if other males are just like him around close female friends. Apparently they aren't. So my guy friend is trying to get into my panties. It's not that I didn't think about it, I just wanted to be sure and have some outside input.
> 
> But you assuming me trying to play games goes out of line.


If I was off base, I apologize. Obviously I don't think if you as a troll, not at all.

But can you see how contradictory the trajectory of this conversation is? The OP presents a situation where you're confused as to why a red blooded man, who you let in your bed, would want to continue coming to your bed. The fact that a man is your friend doesn't suddenly cancel out sexual attraction. There is a real naivety about basic human sexuality in the OP. 

However in later posts reveal that you are aware of this "sexual tension", that it's mutual, that you enjoy the physical touch he provides, that you find him hot, that your legs want to be open to him, etc. Even if, somehow, his feelings were totally platonic, YOURS are not, as you have sexual feelings for him regardless of his intentions. So we learn now that both of you are exactly where you want to be, despite the "friendship" label. Your later posts present a woman who knows exactly what's going on.

Can you see how all of this seems really confusing?


----------



## lovelygirl

livnlearn said:


> needs to grow up and have a conversation with this guy. They need to discuss how each of them views their relationship now, and what they would like it to be in the future. Would they both like to take it further, will they be able to remain friends should it not work out, etc. etc.. This is what mature, responsible people do. Until then she should stay out of bed with him


Please read my previous post. Also, we've had plenty of discussions about us two, in the past. He perfectly knows what i think about the two of us. The last discussion was a year ago. After that, he has asked me on several occasions to set up blind dates for him and I have introduced him a few of my friends whom he dated for a couple of weeks. Lately, he even asked me to set up a date for him and a cousin of mine whom he says he likes. I ended up introducing them to one another because he insisted. And I don't think he's testing me with all these dates because he knows I couldn't care less. 
That's why I say he's not really interested in me but he wants just one thing. 
That's why I said in my first post I was hesitant about sharing the bed with him and I'll stop doing it from now on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lovelygirl

jaquen said:


> The fact that a man is your friend doesn't suddenly cancel out sexual attraction.


True.



> However in later posts reveal that you are aware of this "sexual tension", that it's mutual, that you enjoy the physical touch he provides, that you find him hot, that your legs want to be open to him, etc. Even if, somehow, his feelings were totally platonic, YOURS are not, as you have sexual feelings for him regardless of his intentions


. 
And so what? I know about my sexual feelings I always knew them.

I wasn't sure about his and during the course of the thread I think I *confirmed my doubts.*
But a better confirmation would be to talk to him again which I'll do next week when he asks me again to go over at his apartment. 



> So we learn now that both of you are exactly where you want to be, despite the "friendship" label. Your later posts present a woman who knows exactly what's going on.


I knew exactly what was going on in MY head and body.
I wasn't sure about what was going on wit Him. It was him that I was trying to figure out. 
You and other posters helped me get a better picture. 
I'm not saying I was clueless or naive or stupid.
I was just trying to see where he stands compared to other males if they were in the same situation as him.
Now is all clear.


----------



## Lon

LG, I can't speak for all others, but when you were talking about examples when men would initiate touch, hand-holding etc, and that it seemed like something more than just friendly, even after you questioned them and they told you it was ok to be affectionate, that is the clearest example of listening to actions not words. Words are always driven by thoughts, but our thoughts drive our actions too, and typically when guys initiate physical contact with a female friend, it is not just to simply be affectionate, it is to express physical interest.

Also, I think it would be helpful to not only think of guys who show physical interest as only after one thing - I mean yeah there is one thing they definitely want, but it is not always the only thing, so just because a man is interested in sex should never disqualify him from being able to be able to meet all your other needs. As to what his "tactic" at wooing you looks like, it is equally defined by yourself, and so in this case this guy sees that you are open to receiving physical contact through cuddling, but senses that if he tried to romance you in other ways you'd be more defensive about it (because you are supposed to be just friends).

I do think that to a certain extent he is being very passive about it, but mostly I think he is severely confused. I don't think he'd look like he was only after one thing if you didn't accept his physical affection, if you made him earn your physical affection with other acts of romance he's pursue that avenue instead... Problem is to me I don't think you have a clue what you really want (well I do, but you have already convinced yourself that its not a possibility). What I think you need to do is what women always seem to do and start fitness testing this guy. If he fails or you decide that you would not be interested in marrying him, then stop enticing him with the possibility of sex and keep him out of your bed and out of physical contact, otherwise you are just going to torture yourself more and more over this.


----------



## Caribbean Man

livnlearn said:


> It leaves me to wonder if you have a fondness for LG (I mean this in a totally TAM friend/acquaintance sort of way) that is clouding your judgement.  I wonder if an unknown poster appeared and described the exact same scenario, if you would be as willing to not only give her a "pass" on her poor judgement, but to argue on her behalf. ???


There is a background to LG's story which she posted here on TAM several times asking for advice on her relationships with men. All of which I have read, and commented on.
This is the first sentence in her opening paragraph:

"....So there's this very-long-time OSF of mine [for whom I've talked about a few times here]...."

Hence my apparent bias [ fondness in your words ] to her .
I _know_ the background.


----------



## lovelygirl

livnlearn said:


> . Why anyone would side with or defend her feelings on this is beyond me.:scratchhead:





livnlearn said:


> *It leaves me to wonder if you have a fondness for LG* (I mean this in a totally TAM friend/acquaintance sort of way) that is clouding your judgement.  I wonder if an unknown poster appeared and described the exact same scenario, *if you would be as willing to not only give her a "pass" on her poor judgement, but to argue on her behalf. ???*


Sounds like your major concern is why I'm being defended [which is not true at all]. I didn't come here to defense myself and/or get defended by others. 
*With all the respect,* I don't think it's your place to tell someone else to defend or not defend me, to argue on my behalf or not, to give me a free pass or not. 

Everyone is free to have whatever attitude they want towards me (or someone else).


----------



## lovelygirl

Lon said:


> Problem is to me I don't think you have a clue what you really want


What do you mean? 

I know what I want but I can't give him what he wants and he can't give me what I want.

ETA: I won't even bother testing him. Being in a relationship with him is not my concern. He's far from the guy I want to be in a relationship with. I think he's got a bit of growing to do. It's my major concern. My attraction to him at this point is only sexual. 
If he showed he was able to give more more than that, maybe I'd see him interesting in other areas too.


----------



## RandomDude

Caribbean Man said:


> The guy is moving like a neanderthal, without any finesse.


LOL you crack me up hahaha :rofl:

At least this guy has been seemingly honest in regards to his intentions however, many men would have played with her emotions/desires at this state to get what they want. It's obvious he doesn't want to hurt her.


----------



## lovelygirl

RandomDude said:


> . It's obvious he doesn't want to hurt her.


This is totally true. It's part of the reason why I respect him because no matter what he does, he still cares enough for me not to hurt me by deceiving me. 
He's worth having as a friend but I think he should stop acting like a lover in bed. 
And I should stop sharing the bed with him in the first place.


----------



## lovelygirl

RandomDude said:


> many men would have played with her emotions/desires at this state to get what they want.


I don't know why this offended me.
As if I'm some 4 year old girl where every man can play me while not me having a clue about their game.

C'mon now. I'm not that clueless.


----------



## RandomDude

I'm sure you're not, just putting it out there; but never under any circumstances underestimate what a man can do. Same thing I will tell my daughter once she grows up. Sorry, daddy instincts hehe


----------



## lovelygirl

RandomDude said:


> I'm sure you're not, just putting it out there; but never under any circumstances underestimate what a man can do. Same thing I will tell my daughter once she grows up. *Sorry, daddy instincts *hehe


That's the problem. You saw me like a daughter when I could be your wife. :rofl:


Never under any circumstance underestimate the ability of a woman to lead the situation by playing the man and making him think he has a free pass.


----------



## RandomDude

Heh well, ok, lets say you're like my wife 5 yrs ago (don't mention now, bc now we're in the sh-ts with each other)... she did the exact same thing, but she also knew what she wanted from me and went for it. You have spirit, I'll give you that, just like my wife did, and it drew me to her.

But it was very easy for her to have lost if she had put out straight away. We had teased each other for full year before we got together - and even after I broke up with my gf at the time she still refused me and refused to be a rebound. She was smart, and only gave in when she was sure she has my commitment and was to be my gf not my f-buddy or rebound.

She didn't put up a wall, but she did have locked doors and made sure unless I use the right keys, I'm sure as hell not getting anywhere with her. You can do the same if you want him.


----------



## Earl Dibbles Jr

Hmmmm....I kinda feel bad for the man who has to jump through all the hoops and play all the games to "earn" your affection. If he plays the game right and you deem him "worthy" of the grand prize he then will be sitting there 5 years from now wondering why his wife is sleeping around because she may have missed out on something better and needs to "find" herself and see what she's been missing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RandomDude

If my wife didn't play that game years ago I doubt we would have even got together let alone for me to see her as anything more then an F-buddy or rebound. She was protecting herself but still went for what she wanted, and I wasn't some bloke who got p-ssywhipped by a seductress I tested my wife as well to see how genuine she truly was.

I don't see the connection between a woman playing this game and later days cheating


----------



## lovelygirl

Earl Dibbles Jr said:


> Hmmmm....I kinda feel bad for the man who has to jump through all the hoops and play all the games to "earn" your affection. If he plays the game right and you deem him "worthy" of the grand prize he then will be sitting there 5 years from now wondering why his wife is sleeping around because she may have missed out on something better and needs to "find" herself and see what she's been missing.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You don't know anything about women, really.
I'm sure you need to hear CM's story about his wife.

Also, whether a woman is a virgin or not there is no guarantee that she'll be faithful or cheat on you. 

Women are unpredictable, honey! Go and read the CWI forum.


----------



## lovelygirl

RandomDude said:


> I don't see the connection between a woman playing this game and later days cheating


He really thinks the ability of women to love a man and be faithful to him depends on the number of ONS she has had in the past.
While part of what he says could be true for SOME women, it definitely doesn't apply to all of them.


----------



## Earl Dibbles Jr

Wow. You really know all of that by a few lines of words? How do you propose to know about me and my outlook on women and relationships having never been in a real one yourself?

No disrespect intended honey, but when your claws come out and your defense mechanisms kick in it speaks volumes about your lack of relational understanding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lovelygirl

Earl Dibbles Jr said:


> Wow. You really know all of that by a few lines of words?


Wow. And you really know I'd cheat on my partner because I'm a virgin who's missing out on some good times? 
You really know all of that by a few posts on this thread? 



> How do you propose to know about me and my outlook on women and relationships having never been in a real one yourself?


How do you propose to predict my behavior towards my future partner while almost knowing nothing about me personally?


----------



## Earl Dibbles Jr

If all of your posts here on tam have been false then you are right, I know nothing about you. If they are true then I know far more about you than you know about me.

For the record I admire and respect your values.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lon

lovelygirl said:


> What do you mean?
> 
> I know what I want but I can't give him what he wants and he can't give me what I want.
> 
> ETA: I won't even bother testing him. Being in a relationship with him is not my concern. He's far from the guy I want to be in a relationship with. I think he's got a bit of growing to do. It's my major concern. My attraction to him at this point is only sexual.
> If he showed he was able to give more more than that, maybe I'd see him interesting in other areas too.


So you don't want a relationship with him? Then why do you?

It may not be any kind of officially sanctioned man-woman relationship, but at its core it is exactly the same thing. Just one without sex, kissing or any kind of gush, even if you are not sharing every aspect of your life with him, or planning a future together, he is still very much a part of your life.


----------



## Earl Dibbles Jr

Oh Lon please.....you obviously know nothing about women. Or men. Or relationships. 

TONGUE IN CHEEK RESPONSE
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris

Why are you so afraid of being hurt? 

I'm sorry, I don't know how old you are, I'm guessing mid-20s? And you've only had one 9 month relationship, which did not include penetrative sex? 

Love is always a risk. Always. You'll never get a guarantee, you'll never even really have much if an inkling of whether you're going to be hurt until you actually jump in with both feet and try. And if you're hurt, so what? Life hurts us all. It's the price you pay for getting the good parts.

You'll never really love anyone if you guard yourself the way you seem to be doing. And the older you get, the more guarded and protective you'll become, because fear doesn't go away if you never try. It just gets bigger. 

My husband and I have loved each other, lost each other, found each other, caused each other grief and pain and inexpressible joy. It's life. Anything less is ossification and death. 

I'm going to quote the Queen of England here, hilariously via Dan Savage in a recent podcast I heard. "Grief is the price we pay for love". If you're not willing to risk the grief and pain, you'll never get the love and joy.

I'm not saying necessarily give this particular guy a go, although a great friend you have great chemistry with seems like a good option to me, but think about opening yourself up a bit more and letting go of some of that need for control. You might get your heart broken, but that's part of being properly human.


----------



## lovelygirl

Lon said:


> So you don't want a relationship with him?


If I wanted a relationship with him this thread wouldn't exist in the first place.


----------



## Earl Dibbles Jr

So curt......so cute. You really are a lovely girl.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lon

lovelygirl said:


> If I wanted a relationship with him this thread wouldn't exist in the first place.


It wouldn't need to exist if you didn't want a relationship with him though, would it?


----------



## lovelygirl

Lyris said:


> Why are you so afraid of being hurt?
> 
> I'm sorry, I don't know how old you are, I'm guessing mid-20s?


25.



> And you've only had one 9 month relationship, which did not include penetrative sex?


Yes. To be honest, I didn't really feel appreciated or respected in that relationship hence my withdrawal. It was some sort of psychological and verbal abuse. I've talked about it to only one person here on TAM. I prefer to keep it somewhat private.



> Love is always a risk. Always. You'll never get a guarantee, you'll never even really have much if an inkling of whether you're going to be hurt until you actually jump in with both feet and try. And if you're hurt, so what? Life hurts us all. It's the price you pay for getting the good parts.


The thing is that I don't love this guy nor do I have feelings for him. Why would I risk? Risk for what? For someone who's not worthy of a relationship for the moment?


----------



## lovelygirl

Lon said:


> It wouldn't need to exist if you didn't want a relationship with him though, would it?


The point of this thread has nothing to do with whether I want or don't want a relationship with him.
I was trying to figure out if for 2 VERY CLOSE OSF is normal to cuddle up at night just like the guy says it should be.
I have always thought it was weird, hence the existence of the thread. I needed an objective opinion.


----------



## Earl Dibbles Jr

Again....the "worthiness". Read my previous posts. I have a feeling no one will ever live up to your expectations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Earl Dibbles Jr

lovelygirl said:


> 25.
> 
> 
> Yes. To be honest, I didn't really feel appreciated or respected in that relationship hence my withdrawal. It was some sort of psychological and verbal abuse. I've talked about it to only one person here on TAM. I prefer to keep it somewhat private.
> 
> 
> The thing is that I don't love this guy nor do I have feelings for him. Why would I risk? Risk for what? For someone who's not worthy of a relationship for the moment?


I'm calling BS on this one.....you said your vagina had feelings for him. 

Kids.....sheesh.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris

lovelygirl said:


> 25.
> 
> 
> Yes. To be honest, I didn't really feel appreciated or respected in that relationship hence my withdrawal. It was some sort of psychological and verbal abuse. I've talked about it to only one person here on TAM. I prefer to keep it somewhat private.
> 
> 
> The thing is that I don't love this guy nor do I have feelings for him. Why would I risk? Risk for what? For someone who's not worthy of a relationship for the moment?


Okay, I meant more generally, but that's fine. But I would think that if he's a long-term, very close friend, which is what you said, then you do have feelings for him. Add to that the sexual attraction and you have a pretty good basis for a relationship that might grow into love. What are you expecting love to look like?


----------



## Earl Dibbles Jr

She is expecting a fairy tail...in my humble opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lon

LG, ok, sorry not meaning to make an issue if it isn't one, it seems you have you answer?

I'll bow out of this thread now...

AND I THINK EARL SHOULD BOW OUT TOO, no reason to harass LG.


----------



## lovelygirl

Earl Dibbles Jr said:


> I'm calling BS on this one.....you said your vagina had feelings for him.
> 
> Kids.....sheesh.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My vagina has feelings for Colin Farrell 








or 

and Nick Carter as well.









There. I told you my sexual fantasies. 
It's equal to how my vagina feels when this guy is near me. 

Now what else do you want to leave me alone?

If you don't have anything better to say in this thread please leave.
Also, you have been reported.




Lon said:


> LG, ok, sorry not meaning to make an issue if it isn't one, it seems you have you answer?
> 
> I'll bow out of this thread now...


Lon, I value your thoughts and input. Please stay if you feel you have more to say. Don't hesitate to ask whatever you want to know if you think it helps the thread.

Nonetheless, thank you for the well-thought opinions you shared.


----------



## lovelygirl

Lyris said:


> Okay, I meant more generally, but that's fine. But I would think that if he's a long-term, very close friend, which is what you said, then you do have feelings for him. Add to that the sexual attraction and you have a pretty good basis for a relationship that might grow into love. What are you expecting love to look like?


While I agree with you to a certain extent, I think the long time friendship factor and the sexual attraction are not enough factors for me to call it "love". I'm not saying love happens out of the blue.... but the truth is that I think about him mostly when we share the bed. In no way does he fill up my thoughts during the day or any other time of the week, on regular basis.
Now you tell me if this is about feelings or love....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Earl Dibbles Jr

Ok.....I have been reported. So you hope I will get banned and not call you out anymore. Sorry if my pov was not to your liking. If you jave a mod as a friend I'm sure I will be gone....however my opposing opinions are what happens in real life. When you actually have a relationship there will be no Mod to ban him when things don't go your way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

Earl Dibbles Jr said:


> Ok.....I have been reported. So you hope I will get banned and not call you out anymore. Sorry if my pov was not to your liking. *If you jave a mod as a friend I'm sure I will be gone....however my opposing opinions are what happens in real life. When you actually have a relationship there will be no Mod to ban him when things don't go your way.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see that Earl has been banned, but I wanted to clarify something here, lest someone else has the same thinking as Earl. It's not about whether or not a mod is a friend on here. It's about respect. One of the things frowned upon here is badgering members when they post something. Yes, differing POVs are going to happen. However, there is no reason those POVs can't be respectful. And, as Earl pointed out, there are opposing opinions in real life as well. Yes, it's true, but even those in real life should be respectful. I don't listen when someone gets disrespectful toward me. Doesn't matter if the opinion is right or wrong. If there is no respect, then I ignore them. 

Bottom line: if your POV is different, present it respectfully and don't badger the poster. It really is a simple concept.


Sorry for the mini-tj, LG... but I felt it needed to be addressed.


----------



## lovelygirl

You're right Maricha. It's not the opposite opinions that bother me. It's the disrespectful attitude of people.


----------



## Lon

FTR, I was the one that reported him, in case people are thinking it was LG.

I feel a little bad, I didn't necessarily think his comments were banworthy, but they were leaving a bad taste and before I wrote something equally disrespectful in retaliation I decided to just click report and let the mods use their discretion (as one should when not wishing to start flame wars).


----------



## CandieGirl

lovelygirl said:


> OSF = opposite sex friend.
> 
> So there's this very-long-time OSF of mine [for whom I've talked about a few times here].
> Since he moved into my city a couple of months ago, he has asked me several times [almost every week] to go over at his apartment, to watch a movie and spend the night there.
> 
> On a side note to give some history: We have shared beds together in the past. Nothing has really happened except for him cuddling up with me and caressing me during the night....but neither have I responded nor have I rejected. This happened whenever we used to travel while always ended up getting one hotel room in order not to spend money.
> Even when we had separate beds he would always get into my bed.
> In the past, we had discussed about being in a relationship together but I rejected the idea due to his instability when in a relationship and WE *agreed* not to take it further.
> So, we don't come up with the idea of being in a relationship together anymore and _I think _we're indifferent to this idea.
> 
> Fast forward , he asked me again today to go over at his place but I'm still hesitant.
> What is the point really? Why should two OSF sleep in the same bed when there are chances to avoid this? What's the point of him caressing me, cuddling up with me, kissing my cheek and neck at night, touching my back and arms ..massaging them, ... when he's just a friend?
> 
> To me, that's not a friendly act. It's what lovers do.
> He says there's nothing wrong and that's how really close friends act. Is it true? Am I wrong?
> 
> Do any of you guys do this with you OSF if you're single? Did you use to in the past?
> Would you?


Oooooh LG, you almost had me (again)...I remember getting into it (just a little) with you about OSF once when I thought you were married...

For the record, I have and have had OSFs while single and married...and NO, this is not how they behave at all. In fact, now that I'm a married woman, I daresay that any OSF of mine who behaved this way with me...would get a slap! 

I haven't read any of the replies to your thread, just your original post...but your friend is defo cruising you and you know it!


----------



## lovelygirl

Lon said:


> FTR, I was the one that reported him, in case people are thinking it was LG.
> 
> I feel a little bad, I didn't necessarily think his comments were banworthy, but they were leaving a bad taste and before I wrote something equally disrespectful in retaliation I decided to just click report and let the mods use their discretion (as one should when not wishing to start flame wars).


I reported him him too. So it was both of us lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Ovid

*facepalm*


----------



## sinnister

LG...sometimes we're predators. We do what me must to get that juicy prize. He's going with slow/sensitive. Probably worked in the past so its his go to move.


----------



## RandomDude

lovelygirl said:


> I reported him him too. So it was both of us lol
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Meh, people should have some common sense and integrity to realise that folk come on here seeking answers, instead sometimes you get... well, "those" lol

Had my latest thread hijacked too by folks who somehow hate me (for dumping an ex gf I had 7 yrs ago before marriage even! lol) I hope this doesn't turn you off the forum though, you'll get used to it after a while.


----------



## cabin fever

I am litterly laughing my azz off at this. 

His whole "I'm italian...its what we do" bit cracks me up. 

I'm american, and its called trying to get laid.


----------



## Lon

cabin fever said:


> I am litterly laughing my azz off at this.
> 
> His whole "I'm italian...its what we do" bit cracks me up.
> 
> I'm american, and its called trying to get laid.


Say "Villagio"

Sorry, bad reference to an advertisement I saw for italian bread the other day.

It's all in the accent!


----------



## 40isthenew20

If a guy can get through the night doing this and nothing more with a woman, he is attracted to men and just won't admit it to her.


----------



## SadSamIAm

I see wedding bells in the future for LovelyGirl and PatientGuy.

It is obvious that he sticks around, being respectful yet 'testing the waters'. They get along great and are good friends. She calls him handsome. She admits getting 'hot and bothered' with the caressing.

She said NO to him, because she doesn't feel he is stable in his relationships. He is earning her trust. I don't doubt that he changes partners easily because he is actually waiting for LovelyGirl to come around.

Been reading MMSL. Talks about the woman's cycle and how their moods and sexual responses change.

I predict they continue to hang out. They continue to get closer. She starts respecting him for being respectful of her. Sometime in the near future (guessing the next 6 months), they will find themselves being friends (massages, cuddling, etc.) and it will all line up with her cycle, her growing feelings for him, the stars, the moon, planets, etc. and it will go farther and they will become more than friends.

Sounds to me like a great love story happening before our eyes.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Prototype "sensitive guy" game. I've used it, and it generally works on the cautious more introverted, wary of men types. You put off attempting to close, opting to build comfort and tension until she finally gives in to the moment vs putting the brakes on a direct advance.

Trust me, I'm a bad person.


----------



## sweaty teddy

osf is when the woman keeps the guy as a back up plan and the guy is ever hopefull of getting some pu$$y.


----------



## SpinDaddy

lovelygirl said:


> He's been living in Italy for years and Italians have this tendency of sharing the same bed and acting too friendly/close with OSF as if they were lovers. Maybe that's why I don't blame him that much. He's got it from that culture? . . . .


Classic !!! 

Italians have a tendency to share the same bed and act too friendly/close with OSF?

Yeah they do, they call it a prelude to the amore.

Those crazy Italians!


----------



## jaquen

sweaty teddy said:


> osf is when the woman keeps the guy as a back up plan and the guy is ever hopefull of getting some pu$$y.


No.


----------



## Jellybeans

Lovely, you said:

*I know what I want but I can't give him what he wants and he can't give me what I want.*

If tat is the case, then that says it all.
Tell him that. You guys are "friends" so why not just be honest with him?

The thing is: You're not really "just" friends if you are hanging out in bed together touching and carressing. "Just friends" don't play like this. You know that since you said "it's what lovers do." You may deny *some* feelings for him but on one level, you are sexually attracted to him enough to allow him to do all of this and also if you enjoy it. It is what it is. Nothing wrong with that either since you're human. He definitely wants to have sex with you, that much is clear to see. 

Why not just ask him: do you want sex or a relationship? What's your deal?

Do not keep hanging out in bed w/ him though if you are not on the he same page. Because I see it as you leading him on, enticing him. It's not fair. To either of you. Just as if he only wants to bang, he should be clear. 

Why not just tell him: _I don't want to have sex unless I'm in a committed relationship._

How long have you guys known eachother?


----------



## lovelygirl

sweaty teddy said:


> osf is when the woman keeps the guy as a back up plan and the guy is ever hopefull of getting some pu$$y.


bs. 



@Jelly-we have known each other for more than 7 years now.


----------



## Jellybeans

Well Lovely, you may not like Sweaty's reply but a LOT of guys think that way. TAM has definitely opened my eyes to that POV. So I won't say Sweaty is ALL wrong there because it's true that some men only keep female friends around in case one day she'll let him in, so to speak. Not all guys, but some. 

7 years is a long time. Why not just tell him the truth bout how you feel? That you are attracted to him but you prefer to be in a relationship before sex goes down?


----------



## hope4family

Say no, and keep saying no. He is wearing you down and you are falling for it. I almost dare say to break off all communication. I have female friends that I have known for a lot longer then 7 years and I would give them a chance if they suddenly "had a second thought." 

There is a reason why we are friends. Its because there is a mutual bonding experience that has already taken place. Maybe not enough for a long term relationship, but I can see how MANY men would let it go into the sex territory. Unless you are as unattractive as they come. (Dont get that vibe.)


----------



## Jellybeans

While I thi nk tis' impotant for her to say NO, it's of UTMOST importance for her to stop laying in bed with this guy and having him touch up on her and carress her. Because it's totally going against what she says. Her actions don't match her words. 

People show you who they are through their actions. Right now her actions are telling him "Yep, there is totally a possibility I could happen cause I'm sharing a bed with you and letting you touch me all over my body and letting you rub you body against me like lovers do." 

The fact is, platonic, real platonic friends, don't do that.

That's why I said they are not just friends.


----------



## lovelygirl

Jellybeans said:


> Well Lovely, you may not like Sweaty's reply but a LOT of guys think that way. TAM has definitely opened my eyes to that POV. So I won't say Sweaty is ALL wrong there because it's true that some men only keep female friends around in case one day she'll let him in, so to speak. Not all guys, but some.
> 
> 7 years is a long time. Why not just tell him the truth bout how you feel? That you are attracted to him but you prefer to be in a relationship before sex goes down?


This discussion has come up a lot and in the past I have let him know that for several reasons I want us to remain just friends.
I've also let him know that to me he sounds like a guy who has a long time ahead before he settles down and that I'm not up for adventure. He knows it pretty well. I would be repeating myself if the discussion comes up again. It's not that he doesn't know the truth.

He just hopes I change my mind as time goes by. 

When I've told him in the past that I think he behaves in a weird way in bed with me he says I have a wrong picture of what friends are like and that there's nothing wrong. He makes it sound like I'm misunderstanding his intentions. As if he wants us to be friends but apparently I think he wants us to be more than that and for this I'm wrong. 

meh. He's taking me for a fool.


----------



## thunderstruck

hope4family said:


> I have female friends that I have known for a lot longer then 7 years and I would give them a chance if they suddenly "had a second thought."


I've heard the - "Well, I've known my OSF for x number of years, and they've never tried anything!" line here, and from family/friends. That means shyte. Your OSF can wait a LONG time. I have a female friend who I've known for 20+ years, and she always seemed "safe" to me. She recently told me that she's all messed up, b/c she has an unresolved crush on me, going back to when we first met.


lovelygirl said:


> meh. He's taking me for a fool.


Nah, he's just waiting for you to suddenly realize what a great guy he is, and that the two of you should be together. And...he can play this game for a long time.


----------



## jaquen

Jellybeans said:


> Well Lovely, you may not like Sweaty's reply but a LOT of guys think that way. TAM has definitely opened my eyes to that POV. So I won't say Sweaty is ALL wrong there because it's true that some men only keep female friends around in case one day she'll let him in, so to speak. Not all guys, but some.
> 
> 7 years is a long time. Why not just tell him the truth bout how you feel? That you are attracted to him but you prefer to be in a relationship before sex goes down?


Jelly is absolutely right. I disagree with anybody who says "all guys/all girls" are this, or that. That's a crock, especially since I know on this topic that it's not true for me at all.

But on the other hand, yes, I'd say a good, healthy majority of men with female friends would jump their bones in two seconds if given the chance.

Where I do majorly disagree however is the idea that women largely keep male friends as "back ups". I don't think that's even remotely true. I think that a lot of women are mature enough to handle friendships with guys. It's usually the guys who are waiting around for something to break off.


----------



## lovelygirl

What I expected just happened. He texted several minutes ago, inviting me over again 

him: hey will you come over here tonight? Don't say no this time. 
_[for the 4th week in a row he's asking me to join him at his new apartment but I've avoided it.]_
me: I prefer us to watch the movie in the theater at an earlier hour. 
him: Why?
me: Because if it's late there's no one to take me home after the movie and I'm feeling pretty tired today.
[_pretending I was more concerned about the late- hour rather than the bed-sharing_]
him: I can take you home or you could spend the night here.
me: no it's okay. I can go home myself. Don't worry. 
him: No I can take you home. Also, you know you can stay over here. Actually it would be better if we relaxed. We can buy some popcorn and beer and take the movie easy. You can spend the night here. What's wrong?
me:Friends don't spend the night together. You know my opinion on this matter. Although I've allowed it in the past I still think it's wrong and doesn't make sense. What's the point really?
him: I thought we've had this discussion before and I told you there's nothing wrong. Get rid of your complexities. I thought we were past that now. 
me: I won't be changing my opinion on this. You better respect it. Are we meeting at the theater or not? 



7 minutes later ..no reply yet..


----------



## Lon

LG, that took some courage. If he is your friend he will gladly respect your wishes... You atleast realize that any "complexities" do have some significance to you, and it is important for you to recognize that -there is nothing for you to "get over" he is the one that has to get over them.


----------



## Jellybeans

lovelygirl said:


> This discussion has come up a lot and in the past I* have let him know that for several reasons I want us to remain just friends.*
> I've also let him know that to me he sounds like a guy who has a long time ahead before he settles down and *that I'm not up for adventure. *He knows it pretty well.
> 
> When I've told him in the past that* I think he behaves in a weird way in bed with me *he says I have a wrong picture of what friends are like and that there's nothing wrong. *He makes it sound like I'm misunderstanding his intentions.*
> 
> meh. *He's taking me for a fool*.


Or you are taking him as a fool. Look, I'm just playing devil's advocates here. You say you tell him you want to remain just friends yet you lay in bed with his man essentially making out with him. Yes, carressing, touching, etc is making out. You say one thing but are doing something else. 

As to your latest response to him: GOOD. Now stick to you boundaries. You may have to tell him POINT BLANK when you see him: I_ like you and our friendship but the sleepovers and playing "handsy" with eachother should stop because we are crossing boundaries. I am not comfortable with that and I know you are my friend and can/will respect that._

Capiche.


----------



## thunderstruck

lovelygirl said:


> me: I won't be changing my opinion on this. You better respect it. Are we meeting at the theater or not?
> 
> 7 minutes later ..no reply yet..


Good job by you. Hopefully he doesn't get too angry, b/c it sounds like you just crushed his fantasy.


----------



## BjornFree

He wants to get in your pants, but he's not going about it the right way.


----------



## sweaty teddy

sweaty teddy said:


> osf is when the woman keeps the guy as a back up plan and the guy is ever hopefull of getting some pu$$y.


:lol:

just kep kidding yourself in thinking he just wants to be your friend.

I always lay in bed carressing and rubbing my friends :scratchhead:


----------



## sweaty teddy

lovelygirl said:


> What I expected just happened. He texted several minutes ago, inviting me over again
> 
> him: hey will you come over here tonight? Don't say no this time.
> _[for the 4th week in a row he's asking me to join him at his new apartment but I've avoided it.]_
> me: I prefer us to watch the movie in the theater at an earlier hour.
> him: Why?
> me: Because if it's late there's no one to take me home after the movie and I'm feeling pretty tired today.
> [_pretending I was more concerned about the late- hour rather than the bed-sharing_]
> him: I can take you home or you could spend the night here.
> me: no it's okay. I can go home myself. Don't worry.
> him: No I can take you home. Also, you know you can stay over here. Actually it would be better if we relaxed. We can buy some popcorn and beer and take the movie easy. You can spend the night here. What's wrong?
> me:Friends don't spend the night together. You know my opinion on this matter. Although I've allowed it in the past I still think it's wrong and doesn't make sense. What's the point really?
> him: I thought we've had this discussion before and I told you there's nothing wrong. Get rid of your complexities. I thought we were past that now.
> me: I won't be changing my opinion on this. You better respect it. Are we meeting at the theater or not?
> 
> 
> 
> 7 minutes later ..no reply yet..


time will tell.


----------



## jaquen

BjornFree said:


> He wants to get in your pants, but he's not going about it the right way.


Seeing as he's gotten as far as the bed, some petting and body rubbing, and she admits her legs are really wanting to open for him...

I'd say the dude is going about it the right way. If Lovelygirl didn't cherish her virginity so far, he'd likely be in.


----------



## lovelygirl

I just got home. He replied back telling me to meet at the theater. We met and we were supposed to watch the movie but we didn't, because I chose to have the talk. He was kind of surprised by my reaction today and he started off by asking questions and trying to figure out what was up with me. 
Some highlights from our conversation which was kind of weird ...:

Him: What is going on? You sound different and distant...

Me: Different? I don't know... I just spoke my mind earlier, something which I should have done long ago. Apparently I wasn't clear all this time we've spent together.

Him: Is there someone else in your life? You know you can tell me anything.

Me: I have no reason to keep things hidden from you. And no, there's no one. What makes you think there's someone else?

Him: I don't know. It's like you're avoiding me. You didn't even care to see my apartment. I've been trying to show you around all these weeks I've asked you to come over.

Me: If you had asked me earlier today I would have come. But calling me in the evening to spend the night there it's something I consider to be crossing the boundaries of our friendship. 

him: What are you afraid of???? It's not that we have never spent a night together..What's wrong with that?

Me: Kiss me now then! Why don't you do it?

Him: huh? (my name), what are you talking about??
_[He didn't really expect that lol]
_
Me: What's wrong with friends kissing each other? 
_[I was trying to use his logic to make him understand how weird it feels for friends to behave this way]_

Him: You want me?

Me: Did you notice your reaction when I asked you to kiss me? You found it weird because you know friends don't french-kiss each other. That's how weird it feels for me when we share a bed together.

Him: Oh c'mon, you know it's not the same!!

Me: To me it is!! It's probably what most lovers do with all the touching and the closeness. Please, let's not play each other for a fool. Do you think I'm this stupid to think friends behave this way?? You either stop it (because your mentality about friends is weird to me) or you tell me and admit something you've been trying to say for all this time but didn't have the chance!

Him: There's nothing I wanna admit. I love you as a friend and I see no big deal in what we've done but if it makes you feel confused and uncomfortable I won't do it anymore. Actually, I apologize. I never thought it would bring you such discomfort.

Me: You never thought? I've always told you it's weird, right? You knew what I thought about it! It wasn't something new to you.

Him: Yeah but you let me do it anyway.
_[God, he caught me here. He was right about this part]_

Me: Yeah, obviously! Who doesn't like to be massaged and caressed at night. Anyway, I'm glad we've agreed upon this. No more sleepovers and such. 

Him: Sure, no problem for me...but you didn't answer my question earlier? How do you feel about us? If I kissed you now how would you feel? 

Me: You don't have to kiss me just because I asked you earlier and you would have already done it by now...actually you would have done it long ago if you really wanted it. But we're fine just like we've always been. Friends. I don't see us more.
_[I wasn't really honest with this. I've seen us more and imagined us more. But he didn't admit anything earlier and so neither did I.]_

Him: hmm..alright. Sounds like we agree about this too.
_[I don't think he bought it.]
_
Me: Yeah..totally.
_There was this awkward pause....and then I broke the ice saying:_
Anyway...now let's just move on to something else...


...Then we started talking about other general stuff. I'm relieved I let it out but at the same time I was waiting for him to admit something. He didn't. Now that I'm recalling pieces from our conversation I am pissed. I was waiting for him to at least admit something. :scratchhead:

If he really felt something about me he had the chance tonight..
This means he feels nothing. 
I made a promise to myself there's no way in hell I'll share the bed with him EVER again!


----------



## Caribbean Man

lovelygirl;1217102
[B said:


> Me: Kiss me now then! Why don't you do it?[/B]
> 
> *Him: huh? (my name), what are you talking about??*


Really I don't understand this guy.
I said in one of my earlier post that he was clumsy.

A beautiful woman asks for a kiss and you second guess her?:scratchhead:

Me,
I would have planted the most sensual kiss you've ever had on your lips.
Never understimate the power of a kiss.....


----------



## lovelygirl

Rather than longing for his kiss I was trying to make him understand the weirdness of bed-sharing by making an analogy with the french-kiss between friends.

But had he kissed me, I would have welcomed it. really.


----------



## Caribbean Man

lovelygirl said:


> Rather than longing for his kiss I was trying to make him understand the weirdness of bed-sharing by making an analogy with the french-kiss between friends.
> 
> *But had he kissed me, I would have welcomed it. really.*


That's the point.
Had he kissed you then it would have changed the whole dynamic.


----------



## lovelygirl

CM, what do you think he feels for me? 
Just sex?
Something more than sex?
Or just friendly-feelings?


----------



## Caribbean Man

He knows that you are a virgin and that you want to explore.

You mentioned that he has been around other girls.
So, of course he wants sex. But remember that you have never had sex,and he is having_ regular sex._
He thinks you are attractive , but he does not want a relationship.
He probably knows your standard with respect to relationships and he does not want to commit.

So if he can be " friends " with you and have sex with you now and then, he will be perfectly happy with that.

But the question is whether you are happy with that.
Obviously he is desirable to you.


----------



## lovelygirl

Caribbean Man said:


> He knows that you are a virgin and that you want to explore.


Does it mean I could be using him to explore the sexual world?



> But remember that you have never had sex,and he is having_ regular sex._


And so?



> He thinks you are attractive , but he does not want a relationship.
> He probably knows your standard with respect to relationships and he does not want to commit.
> 
> So if he can be " friends " with you and have sex with you now and then, he will be perfectly happy with that.


True. He would feel satisfied by being FWB with me.



> But the question is whether you are happy with that.


No. It wouldn't make me feel better. I would feel used. Plain and simple.


----------



## Caribbean Man

lovelygirl said:


> Does* it mean I could be using him to explore the sexual world?*
> 
> Yes, and he would LOVE for it to be like that. It would mean that he would be guaranteed sex from you for a while, without any attachments.
> 
> 
> *And so?*
> 
> And so, if he's having regular sex and you have never had it and want to explore, then he would be in charge and not you. Both of you are tough negotiators, but chances are that sooner or later you will get worn out and accept his terms.
> The alternative to that is to start a fresh relationship with someone else. You might have a better chance of achieving your goal.
> 
> 
> *True. He would feel satisfied by being FWB with me.*
> 
> And from what you have said before, you don't want that.
> 
> 
> *No. It wouldn't make me feel better. I would feel used. Plain and simple.
> *
> What you can probably do is try to make him jealous by pulling away from him and showing interest in another man.
> If he has any feelings for you, then he will try to re negotiate.
> He knows your terms and conditions , but he's sticking to his FWB terms because he thinks that he has a very good chance of having sex with you, because of your friendship and the fact that you allowed him in your bed.
> He has options with other women.
> You need to show him that you also have options with other men.


----------



## RandomDude

Lovelygirl,

Looks like now you know where you stand, this is good news!


----------



## lovelygirl

You make great points CM!




Caribbean Man said:


> What you can probably do is try to make him jealous by pulling away from him and showing interest in another man.


The thing is that me and him never talk about me&other men. We always talk about him&other girls. It has always been like this. It's not that there are no options for me with other men but I don't know why I don't even bother to make him jealous or show him that other men want me. 
[Even with my girlfriends it's the same. I never really talk about me and other men because it seems like it's not in my nature to show off how other men hit on me. 
(When someone hits on you and it's obvious, words are are better left unsaid because actions speak louder.) 
There were times when one my close girl-friends ran across some VERY flirty text messages by some men at work (some of them were/are even married and how they invite me to lunches/dinners away from work-place or out of town...) and she started wondering why I didn't tell her anything about them.]
I tend to skip these unless it's something really important. 

Back to the guy...he is really worth the effort of making him jealous? Do I want him really badly..enough to make him change his options in my favor? 
Sounds like NO.

He knows that men hit on me almost all the time whenever I am and it's part of my daily routine that I frankly don't even consider telling anyone about. 
I don't think he needs to know I have other options to make me desirable to him.
He either wants me or not. 

Is he worth fighting for? 
Then general answer would be No. Frankly. 

I want a man who considers me more than a FWB, a man to whom I *don't *have to prove I value more than a FWB(but someone who already knows it), a man who is not afraid to show/tell me he has feelings, a man who is not afraid of commitment.

This guy is not the man I'm looking for, because this guy needs to grow up first before he can be my man. 
..But until then it might be too late.


----------



## sinnister

lovelygirl said:


> CM, what do you think he feels for me?
> Just sex?
> Something more than sex?
> Or just friendly-feelings?


Definitely just sex.


----------



## BjornFree

jaquen said:


> Seeing as he's gotten as far as the bed, some petting and body rubbing, and she admits her legs are really wanting to open for him...
> 
> I'd say the dude is going about it the right way. If Lovelygirl didn't cherish her virginity so far, he'd likely be in.


Nope


----------



## alphaomega

I find this kind of ironic....

But only because I have my own hypothesis....

The thing is, I think this man is a beta trying to pretend he's an alpha. But the thing is....you know he's a beta with his "innocent" flirting and trying to be your friend....But always trying to get your approval of everything before he actually tries himself.

And that beta behavior is turning you off completely. From the fact that you indicated that if he actually did kiss you, then you would have welcomed it. 

The truth is, he was too scared. Too scared to make that decision of what he really wanted...which was to kiss you. But...he was too scared! You scared him! And you sense this betaness in him which is what is really turning you off.

But...it's confusing you...because maybe you think he's cute and all that, but there's just that SOMETHING about him that also turns you off.


Again....just my thoughts, but you have two choices.

1. Tell him what you want. Tell him you want a decisive man. A real man. The problem with this tact is that it's not genuine...because its not inherently from him...which may be its own turn off.

2. Forget him. Treat him as a friend, but that's it. Then...go find the man I think you really want. The man who is strong and knows exactly what you want. No! the kind of man that's decisive and Knows exactly what HE wants, and isn't scared to get it...
You know...the kind of man that makes you tingle. 


Honestly...as a guy...if you let me actually share your bed in the same bedroom.....and then let me kiss you and rub you like that...I wouldn't have been scared to escalate....

Maybe that's what your looking for...?

Again....just my own take on this.


----------



## jaquen

BjornFree said:


> Nope


Nope what? Lovely wants him. She's said it time and again. And he'd have her if the man was interested in making her his one, and his only.

What exactly is he doing "wrong"? I mean the very fact that he refused to kiss her has got her all upset.

I think this man has the upper hand here, all the way.


----------



## heartsbeating

I admit now I haven't read the whole thread. First few pages then skipped to the last page......forgive me, I have my faults. You would have welcomed his kiss if he'd gone for it? It seems you rationalize that it was your way of helping him understand why you didn't want the sleep overs anymore and how that looks for your friendship. You gave him the signal to kiss you, which likely did shock him, then shrugged if off that that wasn't what you actually wanted. But really it was. I can't help but wonder if he's wanting you to be upfront with your feelings and desires towards him, just as you want him to be with you?

Maybe there's something in the way you are with him, drawing him in just to turn him away, him knowing you are a virgin, that's keeping him intrigued.... but he's still with women so he's not really pursuing that with you. 

It just sounds like build-up of sexual tension and lack of honesty about what your friendship really is about to one another. But really, whadda I know?!


----------



## heartsbeating

alphaomega said:


> Again....just my thoughts, but you have two choices.
> 
> 1. Tell him what you want. Tell him you want a decisive man. A real man. The problem with this tact is that it's not genuine...because its not inherently from him...which may be its own turn off.
> 
> 2. Forget him. Treat him as a friend, but that's it. Then...go find the man I think you really want. The man who is strong and knows exactly what you want. No! the kind of man that's decisive and Knows exactly what HE wants, and isn't scared to get it...
> You know...the kind of man that makes you tingle.


Alternate take:

1. Tell him what you want. Be decisive in what you want from him. Be a decisive woman. From there understand what he wants from you.

2. Have him as a friend by enforcing your own clear boundaries that stem from a clear place within yourself of what you want and expect from him. 


I remember when I was younger, one of my guy friends would talk about his dates with me and we'd meet up for lunch and hang out, and there was usually some flirtation between us. He showed his care towards me and it was a nice thing with an underlying sexual tension. He visited one day and I wanted to show him the glow-in-the-dark stickers I'd put on my ceiling fan (at least that's what I'd told myself at the time). When the fan was switched up to high speed, and the lights were low, the stickers became a laser light. I was thinking how cool they looked (lol what a dork) and within seconds, he was on top of me and we were kissing. I welcomed that kiss...... we went on a few dates, he was a lovely guy, but that's all it ended up being between us and that was all good too.


----------



## Caribbean Man

alphaomega said:


> I find this kind of ironic....
> 
> But only because I have my own hypothesis....
> 
> *The thing is, I think this man is a beta trying to pretend he's an alpha. But the thing is....you know he's a beta with his "innocent" flirting and trying to be your friend....But always trying to get your approval of everything before he actually tries himself.*
> 
> And that beta behavior is turning you off completely. From the fact that you indicated that if he actually did kiss you, then you would have welcomed it.
> 
> The truth is, he was too scared. Too scared to make that decision of what he really wanted...which was to kiss you. But...he was too scared! You scared him! And you sense this betaness in him which is what is really turning you off.
> 
> But...it's confusing you...because maybe you think he's cute and all that, but there's just that SOMETHING about him that also turns you off.
> 
> 
> Again....just my thoughts, but you have two choices.
> 
> 1. *Tell him what you want. Tell him you want a decisive man. A real man. The problem with this tact is that it's not genuine...because its not inherently from him...which may be its own turn off.*
> 
> 2. *Forget him. Treat him as a friend, but that's it. Then...go find the man I think you really want. The man who is strong and knows exactly what you want. No! the kind of man that's decisive and Knows exactly what HE wants, and isn't scared to get it...
> You know...the kind of man that makes you tingle. *
> 
> 
> Honestly...as a guy...if you let me actually share your bed in the same bedroom.....and then let me kiss you and rub you like that...I wouldn't have been scared to escalate....
> 
> Maybe that's what your looking for...?
> 
> Again....just my own take on this.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:.with everything you said.


That's why I said in an earlier post that he is a Neanderthal, and that he sounds clumsy to me.
The guy lacks self confidence and finesse.

Lovelygirl is giving him all the green lights , the RIGHT signals but his methods are sabotaging his efforts.

He is like the proverbial donkey's in the lion's skin.
He thinks that easy sex = alpha or real male behaviour.

The problem with him , I suspect, is that he is accustomed having his way with weak, easy girls because he's attractive.So these type of girls naturally come to him.

So now he meets a woman who's a real challenge, giving him all the correct signals and he's unable to decipher them.

My bet is that if she does a complete 180 and put him in the doghouse, he will come back to her begging.


----------



## BjornFree

lovelygirl said:


> I wouldn't say he is a user. No way. Actually, he treats girls with respect and that's one of good traits he has.
> The problem is that he's very unstable. His relationships go no longer than a year and most of the time they are superficial.
> He puts too much importance on the physical appearance and has no problem jumping from one relationship to another without having a second thought. I'm sure he'd left me hurt that's why I try to protect myself from him as much as I can.


My longest relationship before I met my wife was 7 months. I never really bought into the idea of a long term relationship. And honestly when I met my wife, all I wanted to do was have my urge satisfied and then move on.

If you want to play the game, its all or nothing. If you don't want to have sex with him, you need to tell him without mincing words or leading him on. You're not doing that. 

He wants to have sex with you, he probably is nervous or since you say that you've been friends for a long time he does not want to upset the balance of your relationship.

You'll never know how good or bad a relationship is until you take the plunge. I think you're one of those girls who's waiting for her knight in shining armor, an idealist. And sadly you're either going to be disappointed or you're never going to be satisfied. That said, he's an idealist too which explains why he jumps ship so often yet is hesitant to make a move .


----------



## jaquen

BjornFree said:


> He wants to have sex with you, he probably is nervous or since you say that you've been friends for a long time he does not want to upset the balance of your relationship.


This is very good insight. It's kind of interesting that the TAM default for most of us is "he'll do anything to get in your panties".

It wasn't until you mentioned this angle that I recalled the earliest days of my own relationship. My wife and I had been best friends for six years before we got together. And when I say best friends, I mean we were as close as two people could get, regardless of sex. When I started falling in love with her, about a year or so before we got together, I was very apprehensive. I was falling hard, yet I recognized that the dynamic would be shifting and have HUGE implications on a relationship that was incredibly important to me. 

When we finally did get together we didn't even kiss for the first few months. Everything was horribly awkward. The transition was rough, to say the least. We worked our way very slowly up to physical contact, and that was NOT all on my then girlfriend, now wife. Crossing that line can be an enormously big deal if the feelings of friendship were real.

Obviously this guy has an interest in her. But there is the potential that she is very important to him as a friend, and he needs to slide slowly into a physical relationship with her. All men aren't "bang bang!", all day, all the time, with every woman. There are those of us, when presented with something potentially real, do have the desire to take slow. There is the potential that this man doesn't even realize himself just how much Lovelygirl means to him.


----------



## lovelygirl

alphaomega said:


> I find this kind of ironic....
> 
> But only because I have my own hypothesis....
> 
> The thing is, I think this man is a beta trying to pretend he's an alpha. But the thing is....you know he's a beta with his "innocent" flirting and trying to be your friend....But always trying to get your approval of everything before he actually tries himself.
> 
> And that beta behavior is turning you off completely. From the fact that you indicated that if he actually did kiss you, then you would have welcomed it.


You do have a point.
I consider him a negative beta. 
He's not a nice guy. He's just an afraid-insecure-pretending to be alpha-guy. 
Although, I've seen him around other girls. He's more alpha, more confident. 
Why is that? 



> The truth is, he was too scared. Too scared to make that decision of what he really wanted...which was to kiss you. But...he was too scared! You scared him! And you sense this betaness in him which is what is really turning you off.


Yes. He had the chance to grab me. I wanted him to lead the situation given the signals I was giving him. 



> But...it's confusing you...because maybe you think he's cute and all that, but there's just that SOMETHING about him that also turns you off.


No. I don't think he's cute. I think he's good looking and sexy.
Generally I'm not attracted to cute guys. I'm attracted to manly-looking guys, not-overly confident ones but enough confident to know when is the right time to take the lead.




> 1. Tell him what you want. Tell him you want a decisive man. A real man. The problem with this tact is that it's not genuine...because its not inherently from him...which may be its own turn off.


I don't even plan to explain to him what kind of man I want. I don't think he'll ever get it so why bother.
One either is the kind of man that I want or he's not. You can't become someone you're not. 



> 2. Forget him. Treat him as a friend, but that's it. Then...go find the man I think you really want. The man who is strong and knows exactly what you want. No! the kind of man that's decisive and Knows exactly what HE wants, and isn't scared to get it...
> You know...the kind of man that makes you tingle.


Yes. 



> Honestly...as a guy...if you let me actually share your bed in the same bedroom.....and then let me kiss you and rub you like that...I wouldn't have been scared to escalate....
> 
> Maybe that's what your looking for...?


Depends. 

If I gave signals "go ahead" yes, I want to break the ice.
But if I'm giving you mixed signals and you try to take advantage of a weak situation then no. I'd call you weak.


----------



## lovelygirl

heartsbeating said:


> I can't help but wonder if he's wanting you to be upfront with your feelings and desires towards him, just as you want him to be with you?


True. I wasn't upfront with him because he wasn't with me. I repeated his mistake. But if I revealed him my sexual fantasies [which I'm sure he has them too] he'd finally think he already has me as a FWB.


----------



## RandomDude

Actually, reading that convo OP posted on the last page a few times...



> Me: Kiss me now then! Why don't you do it?
> Him: huh? (my name), what are you talking about??
> [He didn't really expect that lol]


A first kiss shouldn't be rushed, he was understandably surprised. I have to ask, how long did you wait for him to respond in between "kiss me now then" and "why don't you do it?", but that's not all...



> Him: You want me?
> Me: Did you notice your reaction when I asked you to kiss me?


He seems to want to "test the waters" lightly at this point, he had to ask you where he stood before he dared to go in for the kill. He seems unsure at this point if he had a chance, and was most likely cautious due to valuing the friendship IMO.



> Him: Sure, no problem for me...*but you didn't answer my question earlier? How do you feel about us? If I kissed you now how would you feel?*


This is a very curious line, especially the last part... he became inquisitive, he asked you "if I kissed you now how would you feel?", just like before, it seems he wanted to "test the waters" before the plunge. It's easy to be confident with random people you meet, but with women who you've known for a year or so, it's alot tougher.

I've dealt with this before, with my STBXW actually, 7-8 yrs ago when we were 'friends' for a year, it was extremely difficult to break the boundary. I didn't want to make things awkward, yet I was clueless at that time on how to approach the situation. I flirted with her but she never gave me a clear green light, she gave me signs but never allowed me to be 100% sure.

Come to think of it, reading that quote, it wasn't really a green light at all if you consider the existence of a year long friend barrier, and Lovelygirl, it seems you gave him the opportunity but immediately before he can respond (when you told him to kiss you), you asked him why won't he do it. IMO you could have waited for his response before that question actually.

IMO it seems even if you and him both want it the barrier is still there. In the end, someone has to take the risk to break this barrier, but it has to be timed very well. It was the same with my step-sister (zero blood relation, all the forbiddenness) as well, I had to take the plunge each time.

So overall... to conclude, come to think of it... you may not have actually found the answer yet. There's still a possibility there, but you have to decide whether it's worth it or not. For my STBX at that time all those years ago -> I was in love at that time, and I had to do it as I thought I would have regretted not knowing forever.

Give him some time, the barrier has been "chipped" it seems, not much though, but chipped enough for him to give it some thought.


----------



## lovelygirl

Caribbean Man said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:.with everything you said.
> 
> 
> That's why I said in an earlier post that he is a Neanderthal, and that he sounds clumsy to me.
> *The guy lacks self confidence and finesse.*


The bold part caught my attention. According to you, what would a confident guy with finesse do if he were in my OSF's shoes? 



> The problem with him , I suspect, is that he is accustomed having his way with weak, easy girls because he's attractive.So these type of girls naturally come to him.
> 
> So now he meets a woman who's a real challenge, giving him all the correct signals and he's unable to decipher them.


This is true. He's never had a problem getting girls, beautiful, tall gorgeous ones. Mostly they'd give in pretty easily that's true.
That's why my attitude seems weird to him.


----------



## lovelygirl

BjornFree said:


> .
> 
> You'll never know how good or bad a relationship is until you take the plunge. *I think you're one of those girls who's waiting for her knight in shining armor, an idealist*. And sadly you're either going to be disappointed or you're never going to be satisfied. That said, he's an idealist too which explains why he jumps ship so often yet is hesitant to make a move .


You're absolutely wrong. Just because I don't want to be banged once I get into someone's bed who wants me as a FWB doesn't mean I'm waiting for an idealist. 
Is it so wrong of me for not wanting to be seen as a potential friend with benefit and for this I'm never getting a boyfriend because I'm waiting for an idealist?
Do all the relationship start off as FWB?? Is this the norm?

No. As long as I'm not looking for something out of the ordinary then I'm not waiting for an idealist. 

You make it sound like it's better for me to give in because because being FWB is the only way to get into a real relationship.


----------



## RandomDude

BjornFree actually has a point when it comes to the plunge, although I do agree however that you shouldn't take the plunge. 

No, in fact I believe it's his job, he's the man. Your job however, is to provide him the opportunity but stick to your guns and boundaries. He needs a clear shot with you, he can't afford to miss, if he does - he might stand to lose his friendship, and he doesn't want that. 

Once he has a clear shot, then you can really tell the answer. Come to think of it, if you had used that "kiss me now then" line, and waited for his reaction a bit before saying anything else, that's probably 90% clear, and that could have been enough.


----------



## lovelygirl

RandomDude said:


> Actually, reading that convo OP posted on the last page a few times...
> 
> 
> 
> A first kiss shouldn't be rushed, he was understandably surprised. I have to ask, how long did you wait for him to respond in between "kiss me now then" and "why don't you do it?", but that's not all...


He waited for like 4-5 seconds starring at me surprisingly. He eyes opened and the confusion grew on his facial expression. We were looking at each other straight in the eye.
_Then_ he asked what I was talking about ...

I didn't say both of the lines right away. If he had kissed me I wouldn't have said "why don't you do it?"




> He seems to want to "test the waters" lightly at this point, he had to ask you where he stood before he dared to go in for the kill. He seems unsure at this point if he had a chance, and was most likely cautious due to valuing the friendship IMO.





> This is a very curious line, especially the last part... he became inquisitive, he asked you "if I kissed you now how would you feel?", just like before, it seems he wanted to "test the waters" before the plunge.


Exactly. He wanted to see my reaction first. He wanted to know if I was provoking him or if I really meant it.
I was actually between the two. Still provoking him and making him understand the weirdness of it but at the same time if it really happened I wouldn't have rejected him.




> IMO you could have waited for his response before that question actually.


He had more than enough. See above.


----------



## Caribbean Man

lovelygirl said:


> The bold part caught my attention. According to you, *what would a confident guy with finesse do if he were in my OSF's shoes?
> *
> 
> This is true. He's never had a problem getting girls, beautiful, tall gorgeous ones. Mostly they'd give in pretty easily that's true.
> That's why my attitude seems weird to him.


First of all a confident man knows what he wants and rather than wait for it to come , he goes after it with passion.

He cannot want to have sex with you, a good friend, and treat you like " any other girl." Because you have already explained that to him.
He is not man enough to take the plunge with you.
Many people love the beach. The love the sand, the sun and the warm water, but they are afraid to take a swim. So they stay in their " safe zone" with water up to their waist and have fun. They never go for a swim.

There is supposed to be a point in a man's life where he comes to the realization that he needs to " learn to swim."
He realizes that he needs to stop wasting time on shallow relationships and exploiting them for 10 minutes sexual gratification, when an ocean full with the possibility of a beautiful, warm , fulfilling relationship exist.

A man with finesse understands this ,he is able to seduce and take the woman on the sexual fantasy she desires in the confines of a mutually beneficial relationship .
It may not lead to lifetime commitment, but one of its many benefits are genuine respect and close lifetime friendship.


----------



## BjornFree

lovelygirl said:


> You make it sound like it's better for me to give in because because being FWB is the only way to get into a real relationship.


My dear, that is entirely your decision. I can tell you one thing though, its never good to remain "Just Friends" with someone you are attracted to. You either act on your attraction or you walk away. 

Ever wonder why so many of these extramarital relationships start out with "Friendship" even though both the parties know they are attracted to one another or why married ex's reconnect on facebook as friends? From your posts I gather that you are attracted to him and he in turn is attracted to you. Do you understand the complications that this friendship will lead to in the future?


----------



## BjornFree

Caribbean Man said:


> It may not lead to lifetime commitment, but one of its many benefits are genuine respect and close lifetime friendship.


Haha fat chance.


----------



## lovelygirl

BjornFree said:


> My dear, that is entirely your decision. I can tell you one thing though, its never good to remain "Just Friends" with someone you are attracted to. You either act on your attraction or you walk away.
> 
> Ever wonder why so many of these extramarital relationships start out with "Friendship" even though both the parties know they are attracted to one another or why married ex's reconnect on facebook as friends? From your posts I gather that you are attracted to him and he in turn is attracted to you. Do you understand the complications that this friendship will lead to in the future?


Yeah I understand your idea. But if being in a relationship with him means to become FWB first, then I choose to walk away from him.


----------



## Caribbean Man

BjornFree said:


> Haha fat chance.


Old Víkingr,
You always make me laugh!

But seriously,
My wife was just like Lovelygirl.
We were " just friends" for years. I was having l sex with other women, she wanted serious commitment, before sex.

I was not ready for that, but I KNEW she had my back.
Yes, she was sexually attracted to me, and she was a 26 yr old virgin.
So instead of compromising, she held her ground.
23 years later we are happily married,17 yrs, and still great friends.

Sexual attraction comes and goes , but respect remains. Great friendships and relationships are based on mutual respect, not just sexual attraction.


----------



## BjornFree

Caribbean Man said:


> Sexual attraction comes and goes , but respect remains. Great friendships and relationships are based on mutual respect, not just sexual attraction.


And low expectations. This is the secret boys and girls.


----------



## lovelygirl

Caribbean Man said:


> There is supposed to be a point in a man's life where he comes to the realization that *he needs to " learn to swim."*
> He realizes that he needs to stop wasting time on shallow relationships and exploiting them for 10 minutes sexual gratification, when an ocean full with the possibility of a beautiful, warm , fulfilling relationship exist.
> 
> A man with finesse understands this ,he is able to seduce and take the woman on the sexual fantasy she desires in the confines of a mutually beneficial relationship .
> It may not lead to lifetime commitment, but one of its many benefits are genuine respect and close lifetime friendship.


Agreed. That's why I said earlier he's got some growing up to do.


----------



## Caribbean Man

BjornFree said:


> *And low expectations*. This is the secret boys and girls.


^^^^^^^^
"...Cliché to a fool, but truth to a man who seeks wisdom.."


----------



## RandomDude

lovelygirl said:


> He waited for like 4-5 seconds starring at me surprisingly. He eyes opened and the confusion grew on his facial expression. We were looking at each other straight in the eye.
> _Then_ he asked what I was talking about ...


Oh ok, in that case, he's a freakin idiot lol


----------



## heartsbeating

lovelygirl said:


> Yeah I understand your idea. But if being in a relationship with him means to become FWB first, then I choose to walk away from him.


What happened to just going on a few dates to see how things go? He knows you are a virgin and if he's known you for 7 years, he likely knows that going out on a few dates isn't going to equal sex with you. Maybe I'm off here, I don't know, but it seems very all or nothing with your view on this guy. This sexual tension of a friendship can't last this way. Why are you friends with him? What does his friendship look like to you?

I can't help but wonder if he wants you to remain unattainable to him.

Be clear in which ever way you approach this.


----------



## lovelygirl

heartsbeating said:


> What happened to just going on a few dates to see how things go?


A few dates? We've gone through billions of dates throughout all these years. We've gone to the movies, late night dinners, lunches, sleepovers and such. Aren't these dates? And it has always been just the two of us. 



> but it seems very all or nothing with your view on this guy.


It's not all or nothing. I've let him touch me and I've share beds with him. How is this all or nothing?


----------



## heartsbeating

lovelygirl said:


> A few dates? We've gone through billions of dates throughout all these years. We've gone to the movies, late night dinners, lunches, sleepovers and such. Aren't these dates? And it has always been just the two of us.
> 
> 
> It's not all or nothing. I've let him touch me and I've share beds with him. How is this all or nothing?


LG I didn't mean to cause you to feel defensive. 

I didn't think you viewed those outings as romantic dates because you were friends and you were introducing him to women you knew for him to date. 

I thought you viewed your relationship as friends - and you were hanging out with him but wanted more. So you have viewed it as dating him?


----------



## lovelygirl

heartsbeating said:


> LG I didn't mean to cause you to feel defensive.


I didn't mean to get defensive. Sorry.



> I didn't think you viewed those outings as romantic dates because you were friends and you were introducing him to women you knew for him to date.


True. I didn't view them as dates though at times I've wondered if those were dates. 
He has asked me to introduce women to him after he asked me to be in a relationship but I rejected. 

I don't know if I've shared it here in other threads when talking about him..

A year after we met he came to pick me up at home one night and on the way to the restaurant he told me he felt we could be a great couple and that he was developing feelings for me. 
At the time, I took it as a joke to be honest and I replied with a joke (which might have sounded offensive to him). I said "Are you drunk?" 
He wasn't drunk but I was trying to tell him how ridiculous the idea of us being a couple sounded to me back then. He asked me to give him (us) a chance and to believe in "us". 
I was like "WTF? Why are you telling this so out of the blue?"

I think I was shocked because I never thought he'd say those things and I couldn't wrap my head around that weird situation. 
We nearly made a car accident because he was focused on what he was telling me instead of watching the road. lol
We talked a lot that night and we had several similar talks until we agreed we can't be more than friends.

Last night it was the first time after so many years that the discussion of being more than friends came up again. 




> I thought you viewed your relationship as friends - and you were hanging out with him but wanted more. So you have viewed it as dating him?


I have never viewed him as dating up until recently with all the bed sharing and invitations for sleepovers.


*ETA*: After we agreed years ago that we can't be more than friends he _then_ proceeding with asking me to set him up on dates with my friends/cousin.


----------



## Lyris

He likes you. He wants to have a relationship with you. He TOLD you this. 

You shouldnt have continued this close-friends-quasi-physical-relationship stuff after he told you that. It was cruel. He's clearly hanging around with unrequited feelings for you, hoping you'll change your mind. 

It sounds to me as though you enjoy having him around admiring you and providing some sexual tension. And you're sending him all these mixed messages where you say one thing but do another. 

It's immature, self-centred behaviour. Time to grow up a bit I think.


----------



## Lyris

> At the time, I took it as a joke to be honest and I replied with a joke (which might have sounded offensive to him). I said "Are you drunk?"
> He wasn't drunk but I was trying to tell him how ridiculous the idea of us being a couple sounded to me back then. He asked me to give him (us) a chance and to believe in "us".
> I was like "WTF? Why are you telling this so out of the blue?"


And this is a really nasty way to respond to someone who is taking the risk of opening up and showing how they feel. There are millions of ways to turn someone down kindly and respectfully. Asking them if they are drunk to try and communicate how ridiculous it is to think you could ever feel the same way is not one of them.


----------



## lovelygirl

Lyris said:


> He likes you. He wants to have a relationship with you. He TOLD you this.


Time goes on and things change. H want*ed* to be in a relationship with me *back then* but not anymore. It's all part of the past. 
If he really liked me and wanted a relationship with me he would have done something about it during all these 7 years and last night he had the chance again. 



> You shouldnt have continued this close-friends-quasi-physical-relationship stuff after he told you that. It was cruel. He's clearly hanging around with unrequited feelings for you, hoping you'll change your mind.


I have to disagree. We agreed we can't be more than friends but nothing was stopping us to be close friends. 
And no, it wasn't cruel. If he felt it was cruel he would have ended this close friendship long ago...
Also, why do you look at things from his angle? 
What about me watching him how he dated all those girls for all these years and how he shared many intimate details about them? 
What about me seeing how he dated my friends and cousin? Isn't here some cruelty? 

But to be honest, there's no cruelty in any of the situations above. We did everything we wanted by our own consent. 



> It sounds to me as though you enjoy having him around admiring you and providing some sexual tension.


Isn't he getting the same sexual tension from me? 
Of course he is. So where's the big deal here? 
It's not that I'm receiving and he's not getting. 




> And you're sending him all these mixed messages where you say one thing but do another.


Oh ...believe me. He's doing the same.

-Isn't it a mixed signal when he touches me at night but then when I ask him to kiss me he pretends as if he doesn't know what I'm talking about and gives me a weird look? 

-Isn't it a mixed signal when it the past he said he wanted to be in a relationship with me but then last night he said he wanted to be just friends?


----------



## lovelygirl

Lyris said:


> And this is a really nasty way to respond to someone who is taking the risk of opening up and showing how they feel. There are millions of ways to turn someone down kindly and respectfully. Asking them if they are drunk to try and communicate how ridiculous it is to think you could ever feel the same way is not one of them.


He KNEW I was JOKING/being playful but I didn't really mean to offend him.
Imagine a guy friend of yours showing up at your house asking you to be in a relationship with him out of the blue? 
Keep in mind you/him never thought of this before and aren't that close. [just as we weren't that close back then]

Isn't it weird ? 

You'd have to be there that night to understand what I'm talking about.


----------



## RandomDude

LG has given him enough fair chances in my opinion

He has to know by now - it's so freakin obvious!!! But now it's obvious that he just wants friends or FWB, he can't provide for LG what she wants, and even if he does want it - then he has failed to snap on the opportunity. He has his own issues.

Probably the same issue as me at the moment, not looking for love, only a few warm bodies to cuddle up with at night. He won't want commitment, he's happy with his lifestyle, he doesn't have responsibility, he doesn't have to be vulnerable, he doesn't have to risk himself getting hurt. It's a good life except you will never feel loved.

But some folks, have already given up on that.


----------



## Lyris

Why would he do anything about it when you reacted like that the first time he tried? Why take the risk?

And as you have repeatedly said you don't want a relationship with him, never had those feelings for him, no, I don't think there's any cruelty on his part at all.

LG I'm 40 years old. I'm attractive. I've been in exactly your situation, exactly, more than once. Know what I did? I was honest and kind, I managed to make it clear I didn't feel anything but friendship without implying they were idiots for thinking differently.


----------



## lovelygirl

Lyris said:


> Why would he do anything about it when you reacted like that the first time he tried? Why take the risk?


Because he had tons of other chances after that? 
If he only knew how to and when.



> Implying they were idiots for thinking differently.


That's the vibe you're getting.
We had a very serious talk for several hours after I said that stupid line. So I fixed it.


----------



## Lon

lovelygirl said:


> Time goes on and things change. H want*ed* to be in a relationship with me *back then* but not anymore. It's all part of the past.
> If he really liked me and wanted a relationship with me he would have done something about it during all these 7 years and last night he had the chance again.


I think this is a very incorrect assumption. From experience, I know that those kinda feelings never go away (anyone I've ever wanted to have a relationship with, and didn't get the chance to, I'd probably still like to have the opportunity to) - maybe it is my lack of courage and what gets me friend zoned (like it did him), but I will choose to respect someone else's will. For him to not take a chance was him trying to respect that you were the one that didn't want a relationship. The whole time he has remained there willing to have a relationship with you, all you had to do was say the words because that is what you told him. Your actions haven't entirely matched your words, that is the mixed messages that you are forcing him to interpret. So when you told him to kiss you, of course he hesitated, and then asked you if you were saying you wanted to change your previous decision to not have a relationship with him.

I agree with Lyris on this, you've been holding all the power as to whether you have a relationship with him or not, and have been too immature to realize it.


----------



## RandomDude

The opportunities have flown straight over his head IMO, I agree on and also posted in regards to the rather small window of opportunities presented to him, but in my opinion one can't expect LG to be the man in this and take the plunge, she has to protect herself as well from looking like an idiot. Also note that despite his indecisiveness he does have some game, he can't be dealt with like other types of men IMO


----------



## RandomDude

@ Lyris



> He likes you. He wants to have a relationship with you. He TOLD you this.


Something I missed?


----------



## Lon

The only reason LG is the one that has to "take the plunge" is because the guy already did, years before, and was shot down. LG suggests they agreed to not want a relationship, but that was never an agreement, it was her putting up a boundary and him acknowledging it. And since then, she has said she doesn't want a relationship, but has confessed that if he had made a move she would have wanted a relationship. That is why earlier I suggested that LG doesn't know what she wants... What Lyris said is that she is leading him on, and I completely agree. Problem is she won't take down the wall she put up, but she wants him to smash through it - but the guy has too much respect for her to do so because he is simply respectful. And so LG will miss out on this attractive, respectful man, unless she changes her approach, or maybe she just wants him to scale her wall rather than smash it, in which case yeah, he has had opportunities, maybe someone should give him a clue.


----------



## heartsbeating

I agree with Lon and Lyris. 

Why was it a ridiculous idea to consider him in a relationship back then but it might not be now? You wanted him to kiss you the other night. He asked if you wanted him. You weren't vulnerable and honest with him, as he was with you all those years ago. I wonder if part of your attraction to him is because he has been dating others and the attraction is safer for you this way - at a distance.

I do think there's some growing for you to do from all of this. I don't think he's been cruel. He put forward his feelings and was rejected. He likely would rather have you in his life this way than not at all. Be cautious with considering that - it isn't something to boast, it's something to be selfless with. If you were a good friend to him, if you cared for him, you might become aware the attention you accept from him doesn't have his best interests in mind.


----------



## lovelygirl

Lond I understand your POV but I agree more with what RD said here:



RandomDude said:


> The opportunities have flown straight over his head IMO, I agree on and also posted in regards to the rather small window of opportunities presented to him, but in my opinion one can't expect LG to be the man in this and take the plunge, she has to protect herself as well from looking like an idiot. Also note that despite his indecisiveness he does have some game, he can't be dealt with like other types of men IMO


Really, *I went out of my way* when I told him to kiss me, last night.
I have never done it with a guy before and generally I'm not the type to give signals or hints for the fear of being misled or for the fear of misunderstanding the situation. 
Even with my ex I didn't act anyway near as to how I've been acting with this OSF of mine, yet my ex took the lead and pursued me. 

I would really look like an idiot if I told him [after he asked me "how would you feel if I kissed you now? You want me"] - _Yeah kiss me. I want you._

And imagine him keeping the same attitude telling me what I was talking about, again. Imagine him finding it ridiculous just like I found it ridiculous when he first told me he wanted us to get together. 
I would look like a total fool.

Also, you either kiss me or you don't. Sometimes, words are better left unsaid and it's ridiculous to ask for permission to grab the kiss. [if you really want it so bad]


----------



## Lon

lovelygirl said:


> Also, you either kiss me or you don't. Sometimes, words are better left unsaid and it's ridiculous to ask for permission to grab the kiss. [if you really want it so bad]


Yes sometimes words are left better unsaid, not getting permission first is something nice guys really struggle with... but I would sure hesitate if a OSF suddenly told me to kiss her, even if I wanted to really badly, would feel like a sh!t test (which it was).


----------



## Caribbean Man

I approached my wife THREE TIMES, before she accepted that I was serious about a relationship with her.

Lovelygirl has already played her hand.
What is she supposed to do with this guy ,
Spoon feed him?
For god sake this guy was IN BED with her!
How many other guys had that privilege ?
So, why can't he accept her conditions if he thinks he deserve a shot?


----------



## RandomDude

Forgive me but I can't seem to find the post where it details that he actually took the plunge, but even then - read below. As for the wall/barrier, that's natural once friend-zoned, and she can't easily just pull it down. It's just as hard for her to do so as for him. She has already opened a few doors/windows, but he didn't take it, so it had to be closed to preserve the friendship.

As LG mentioned before as well, she needs a man to take the initiative, as most women do. And I'm also taking to account that he does get the girls he wants in his life, and one can see this as him being stupid, but on the other hand, if he does still see her as a potential, then he would have snapped on the opportunity. She has protected herself from looking like an idiot in front of a friend who doesn't seem to be interested in a relationship with her. So in the end, now she knows where she stands, and this is a good thing.

CM is right too, men can't be spoon-fed. If he does have feelings for her, then he's lost his chance and perhaps this will teach him to be less indecisive in the future. I've had a few lost opportunities in the past too, those lost chances taught me to grab 'em like there's no tomorrow lest I regret for the rest of my life. It's a lesson it seems this OSF has to learn IF he does have feelings otherwise I wouldn't consider him matured enough in the game of love.


----------



## lovelygirl

heartsbeating said:


> I agree with Lon and Lyris.
> 
> Why was it a ridiculous idea to consider him in a relationship back then?


Just like it's ridiculous when someone whom you see as a brother/as a simple friend tells you they want to be your boyfriend, out of the blue.



> .... but it might not be now?


Because after all these years together and for what's been happening lately and how close we've become...It's normal for the thought of being in a relationship with him to cross my mind. 

I don't see where the big deal is here. 





> attraction to him is because he has been dating others and the attraction is safer for you this way - at a distance.


I'm not sure I understand this. Please, explain further.


----------



## lovelygirl

Lon said:


> Yes sometimes words are left better unsaid, not getting permission first is something nice guys really struggle with... but I would sure hesitate if a OSF suddenly told me to kiss her, even if I wanted to really badly, would feel like a sh!t test (which it was).


Lon, he has shared with me A LOT of intimate details from his relationships. He has told me some very private secrets that to be honest shouldn't have been revealed to me because they are pretty personal. I can tell you he's everything but a nice guy. 
Or at least that's how he tries to appear when he tells me his past stories. 
So, with him I don't buy the "nice guy" syndrome.


----------



## lovelygirl

RandomDude said:


> Forgive me but I can't seem to find the post where it details that he actually took the plunge,


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/60429-2-osf-same-bed-whats-point-13.html#post1218590

If you didn't read this earlier.


----------



## Lyris

> A year after we met he came to pick me up at home one night and on the way to the restaurant he told me he felt we could be a great couple and that he was developing feelings for me.
> At the time, I took it as a joke to be honest and I replied with a joke (which might have sounded offensive to him). I said "Are you drunk?"
> He wasn't drunk but I was trying to tell him how ridiculous the idea of us being a couple sounded to me back then. He asked me to give him (us) a chance and to believe in "us".
> I was like "WTF? Why are you telling this so out of the blue?"


RD, here's the quote I was referring to. 

LG you have a lot of concern about how you might feel, and how little you want to put yourself out there in any real and vulnerable way, but you seem to be having trouble empathising with how your friend might feel. 

I'm going to give you a pass on the original shoot-down because I think you were only 18 or so, but you don't get a pass on basic empathy and understanding forever.


----------



## Lon

I dunno LG, I'm no relationship guru, which is why I've followed your thread, to gain some understanding... but I just can't wrap my head around the whole dynamic... so certainly don't take any advice from me, because I'm beyond all out of it, lol! Good luck though, hope it works out the way you want it to


----------



## RandomDude

@LG

And you have successfully protected yourself, well done!

Even if he is the "nice guy" with you, for now, as you have mentioned and I agree - he has some growing up to do. Only thing that taught me not to miss anymore opportunies in the past was = lost opportunities. He has to learn the same lesson and that's IF he has feelings.

So in the end, think this was handled quite well. To be honest I'm rather shocked at your initiative giving him those chances, you really took the risk. I'm glad that the friendship continues however, but for the sake of less awkwardness, I recommend never mentioning this again! Heh


----------



## lovelygirl

Lon said:


> I dunno LG, I'm no relationship guru, which is why I've followed your thread, to gain some understanding... but I just can't wrap my head around the whole dynamic... so certainly don't take any advice from me, because I'm beyond all out of it, lol! Good luck though, hope it works out the way you want it to


Thank you Lon! I appreciated your comments anyway. 
Thank you for your time!

And thank you everyone for their time, reading and posting. I appreciate it guys! Although I might not agree with some of you I totally understand your point of view. One thing's for sure is that you're all more experienced than me and chances for you being right are bigger.


----------



## RandomDude

@Lyris



> A year after we met he came to pick me up at home one night and on the way to the restaurant he told me he felt we could be a great couple and that he was developing feelings for me.
> At the time, I took it as a joke to be honest and I replied with a joke (which might have sounded offensive to him). I said "Are you drunk?"
> He wasn't drunk but I was trying to tell him how ridiculous the idea of us being a couple sounded to me back then. He asked me to give him (us) a chance and to believe in "us".
> I was like "WTF? Why are you telling this so out of the blue?"


Thanks... and hmm... looks like the lesson has to be learnt by both parties in that case.

@LG

Reading that, now it's much clearer in regards to what IMO I believe is happening in his mind. A man doesn't usually give a lady second chances if he was rejected the first time, well I know I don't, I've always had plenty of options throughout my life so I don't waste much time with trying again with the same woman.

My STBX never rejected me outright, always left a hint to keep me interested. So in the end I'm guessing he's not allow himself to see you two as a couple anymore. Missed opportunity that time in your case, same as it's a missed opportunity for him this time.


----------



## lovelygirl

Lyris said:


> RD, here's the quote I was referring to.
> 
> LG you have a lot of concern about how you might feel, and how little you want to put yourself out there in any real and vulnerable way, but you seem to be having trouble empathising with how your friend might feel.
> 
> I'm going to give you a pass on the original shoot-down because I think you were only 18 or so, but you don't get a pass on basic empathy and understanding forever.


I might have come across as uncaring about how he feels. Believe me, I want him in my life. I care about him but he's giving me mixed signals too. I think we're both misleading each other because we're both confused about each other's attitude.


----------



## RandomDude

Well, there is still hope but personally at this point I would take it as a missed opportunity for both parties, learn from it, and move on. You have plenty of time, me... I'm already growing grey hairs, I blame my STBX for plucking them.


----------



## jaquen

lovelygirl said:


> A year after we met he came to pick me up at home one night and on the way to the restaurant he told me he felt we could be a great couple and that he was developing feelings for me... He asked me to give him (us) a chance and to believe in "us".


This is crucial information that you really should have put in the OP to give respondents proper info.

I think this entire thread would have likely been filled with a different brand of responses, and likely less of them, if you'd just let everyone know from the get go that this man made it perfectly clear that he wanted to be your boyfriend.

Honestly Lovely, I am very confused about all this. You admit to finding him attractive. You admit to enjoying his company. You let him touch your body in a private setting. You admit to wanting to open your legs for him. He's been a committed presence in your life, and has made it perfectly clear that he wanted more.

Why exactly are you NOT giving this man a try? And if, for whatever reason, you can't or won't start a relationship with him, why, oh why, are you teasing this man? Just cut him loose if you two are not going to negotiate a relationship out of all this game playing, and sexual teasing.

I'm sure you're not intending to be malicious, but from the outside looking in you really, really are not coming off looking too hot in this whole situation.



lovelygirl said:


> Time goes on and things change. H want*ed* to be in a relationship with me *back then* but not anymore. It's all part of the past.
> If he really liked me and wanted a relationship with me he would have done something about it during all these 7 years and last night he had the chance again.
> 
> 
> I have to disagree. We agreed we can't be more than friends but nothing was stopping us to be close friends.
> And no, it wasn't cruel. If he felt it was cruel he would have ended this close friendship long ago...
> Also, why do you look at things from his angle?
> What about me watching him how he dated all those girls for all these years and how he shared many intimate details about them?
> What about me seeing how he dated my friends and cousin? Isn't here some cruelty?
> 
> But to be honest, there's no cruelty in any of the situations above. We did everything we wanted by our own consent.
> 
> 
> Isn't he getting the same sexual tension from me?
> Of course he is. So where's the big deal here?
> It's not that I'm receiving and he's not getting.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh ...believe me. He's doing the same.
> 
> -Isn't it a mixed signal when he touches me at night but then when I ask him to kiss me he pretends as if he doesn't know what I'm talking about and gives me a weird look?
> 
> -Isn't it a mixed signal when it the past he said he wanted to be in a relationship with me but then last night he said he wanted to be just friends?


Trust me, I've been in similar situations as you and this man. Including the part where I started dating others, was physically close to her, and we talked about other relationships with other people...

The outcome? I'm married to her.

This man wanted a relationship with you, you just about laughed in his face at the notion, and he pretended that it was best to just be friends. He's hanging around because he still likes you. 

I guarantee you if you went to him right now, and had a real, open discussion, and told him that you'd like to be with him in a relationship he would be jumping at the chance.


----------



## jaquen

I'm sorry, am I the only man left in planet Earth that doesn't think it's some big whoop if a girl puts here self out there and risks rejection?

Who gives a ****? Both men and women are first, and foremost, human beings. NOBODY wants to put themselves out there, NOBODY wants to be potentially made a fool out of.

I am truly baffled that there are posters who are applauding LG for kinda, sorta putting herself out there, and risking being the fool, while stringing up this guy who actually did have the guts to tell her exactly what he wanted, straight up, and got thoroughly shot down for it. Between the two of them only one has been clear, straight up, and totally transparent about what they wanted, and it was not Lovelygirl. 

Now people's advice is really that he should be the one to pick up on her vague suggestions, and pseudo invitations? Why exactly is that? She's made it perfectly clear, in post after post, both overtly, and perhaps without even knowing it, that she's into this guy. Why can't SHE be the one to go to him and say "Look, lets give this thing a try"?


----------



## RandomDude

I don't know Jaquen, would you continue to invest emotions in a woman if she rejected you outright? Was a rather harsh rejection too actually looking at the choice of words.

I think she's already lost her chance, and he's lost his. I doubt if she went to him now and said "look lets give this thing a try" he would accept.


----------



## Caribbean Man

jaquen said:


> Now people's advice is really that he should be the one to pick up on her vague suggestions, and pseudo invitations? Why exactly is that? She's made it perfectly clear, in post after post, both overtly, and perhaps without even knowing it, that she's into this guy. Why can't SHE be the one to go to him and say "Look, lets give this thing a try"?


Because,
"...."All is fair in love and war..." 

You don't learn to play poker by " wagering matchsticks."
In legal terms, I think it's called " extenuating circumstances" ?

Really, there are no real " rules of engagement " in the game of love.
They both have options.
He could decide to move on to one of his "FWB hotties."
And she could decide to move on to someone else who is willing to compromise with her.

Its that simple.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Here's another angle we can look at is this.

Suppose LG and this guy _actually_ had sex those times they slept in the same bed together.

And she posted the exact , same story about her feelings , and this guy's unwillingness to meet her emotional needs.

What would have been YOUR advice to her?

I think most of you all would have said that she should forget him and move on. It's the obvious thing to do.

That's why I think she should FORGET HIM AND MOVE ON.
Sex with him, wouldn't change anything, in fact she would feel more vulnerable. She would be grovelling and begging him for a stable relationship.


----------



## Lyris

What I think is she should LEAVE HIM ALONE and let *him* move on.

And then she should think seriously about what exactly she thinks love is, if it's not a great friend who you are also very attracted to.


----------



## BjornFree

No offense LG but I think you're more addicted to the drama than to the fact that you have a wonderful opportunity taking things to the next level with him and see where it goes from there.

So you're afraid that he'll hurt you? Well so many things can happen in life and no relationship is permanent because one of you will die or get bored. And breakups are not particularly high on my list of happy memories?

I think Lyris gave you some valuable advice.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Lyris said:


> What I think is she should LEAVE HIM ALONE and let *him* move on.
> 
> *And then she should think seriously about what exactly she thinks love is, if it's not a great friend who you are also very attracted to.*


^^^^^^^^
:scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:


Please read this excerpt from LG's original post.

"......On a side note to give some history: *We have shared beds together in the past. Nothing has really happened except for him cuddling up with me and caressing me during the night....but neither have I responded nor have I rejected.* This happened whenever we used to travel while always ended up getting one hotel room in order not to spend money.
*Even when we had separate beds he would always get into my bed.*
*In the past, we had discussed about being in a relationship together but I rejected the idea due to his instability when in a relationship and WE agreed not to take it further.*
So, we don't come up with the idea of being in a relationship together anymore and I think we're indifferent to this idea.

*Fast forward , he asked me again today to go over at his place but I'm still hesitant.*
What is the point really? Why should two OSF sleep in the same bed when there are chances to avoid this? What's the point of him caressing me, cuddling up with me, kissing my cheek and neck at night, touching my back and arms ..massaging them, ... when he's just a friend? 

*To me, that's not a friendly act. It's what lovers do. 
He says there's nothing wrong and that's how really close friends act. Is it true? Am I wrong?*


What do *you *think love is?
Does dude share the same attraction?
So how does that equate " love?"


----------



## lovelygirl

I have yet to understand why some members feel empathy for him.




jaquen said:


> This man wanted a relationship with you,


*I didn't want a relationship with him back then*. Now where's the drama here? Should I have gotten in a relationship just because he wanted so? For his sake? 
You think I should have been "forced" to say yes? 



> you just about laughed in his face at the notion, and he pretended that it was best to just be friends. He's hanging around because he still likes you.


I apologized to him later that night after laughing at his face. I made it up to him by taking him seriously that night although I didn't really believed a word he said. He already had a girlfriend in Italy and to be honest I wasn't really sure if he had broken up with her although he said he did. 
*Believe me, he was a real playboy!* He would jump from one girl to another and would tell me how he played one or the other. He would laugh at them in front of me!!

Imagine your wife back then telling you how she played the guys and laughing with you about them. Wouldn't you think she'd do the same with you if she threw the idea of being in a relationship with you?

There are details that you guys don't know but I know them. 
I can't reveal them all here. 



> I guarantee you if you went to him right now, and had a real, open discussion, and told him that you'd like to be with him in a relationship he would be jumping at the chance.


No. I would look like a fool and he would throw it back in my face the fact that I rejected him years ago.
Also, he would think I'm on his hand now.


----------



## lovelygirl

Lyris said:


> What I think is she should LEAVE HIM ALONE and let *him* move on.
> 
> And then she should think seriously about what exactly she thinks love is, if it's not a great friend who you are also very attracted to.


I have already left him alone...long ago. 
*Who's stopping him from dating other girls? That's what he's been doing for all these years!!! I'm not keeping him for myself.* He's always been free to date and do whatever the hell he wanted. 
Just because he keeps on coming back to me it's HIS choice. 

And frankly, if he wants to be in a relationship now with me it's because he's single and he's got no other options at the moment. I don't want to be his back up plan. 
Also, I don't think he's ever gone out of his way to do something for me to show me how much he truly cares. 

He's always had me around to introduce him girls or set him up on dates. Or when he feels lonely he calls me up to have someone to cuddle up with.


----------



## joshbjoshb

Wow, LG. Let me tell you something: maybe he is not ready for relationship, but you are just as far as he is. 

Throughout this entire thread you are busy protecting yourself, not to be hurt. So you are scared not to show him any love or any affection, pretends to always be in control, so you will not be hurt.

This is stupid because in order to feel any type of love you have to become volunurable, but you are not ready to do that.

You sounds a very intellectual person, and perhaps this is part of the issue. Moving to the next step would require you to stop being so smart, and becoming more affectionate and loving.

What does every man wants? A woman that won't judge him, accept him and love him. Of course you are not ready to do that, because you are scared to death of the option of rejection. So you choose to be in control, always protecting yourself and if something goes wrong, of course it was him - not you.

I read your story with the kiss. You wouldn't do any move - i.e. get close to him and hug, and give a little kiss that would have become in a second a very loving kiss!! - but instead choose to "command him" (what the heck) the kiss you. He was taken aback, and you, scared of the possibility of being rejected, were very fast to show that no, I wasn't really serious, and moved on.

And guess what went through his head when you commanded him to kiss you (???) - is she really serious? Does she really want me? So he figured let me wait another moment to see if yes, or is she still the same judgmental person she is. And guess what he found out.

There is a very good book for you to read. It's called "the surrendered wife" - you are not a wife, and perhaps even you won't marry him, but if you won't read and practice this, your marriage would be doomed, and your husband would have a very hard time with you.

I am saying it as someone who is married to someone who still, couple of years after we wed, still didn't let her guards down, and is still scared to expose herself to love, and yes, the option of hurt.


----------



## golfergirl

I just find it very strange that someone mid 20's would have to question if cuddling and caressing in bed normal for OS friends. That's why I feel there is a little game playing going on especially with his declaration of interest in the beginning. Do you cuddle and caress SS friends as a teenager during sleepovers? There's the answer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris

Caribbean Man said:


> ^^^^^^^^
> :scratchhead::scratchhead::scratchhead:
> 
> 
> Please read this excerpt from LG's original post.
> 
> "......On a side note to give some history: *We have shared beds together in the past. Nothing has really happened except for him cuddling up with me and caressing me during the night....but neither have I responded nor have I rejected.* This happened whenever we used to travel while always ended up getting one hotel room in order not to spend money.
> *Even when we had separate beds he would always get into my bed.*
> *In the past, we had discussed about being in a relationship together but I rejected the idea due to his instability when in a relationship and WE agreed not to take it further.*
> So, we don't come up with the idea of being in a relationship together anymore and I think we're indifferent to this idea.
> 
> *Fast forward , he asked me again today to go over at his place but I'm still hesitant.*
> What is the point really? Why should two OSF sleep in the same bed when there are chances to avoid this? What's the point of him caressing me, cuddling up with me, kissing my cheek and neck at night, touching my back and arms ..massaging them, ... when he's just a friend?
> 
> *To me, that's not a friendly act. It's what lovers do.
> He says there's nothing wrong and that's how really close friends act. Is it true? Am I wrong?*
> 
> 
> What do *you *think love is?
> Does dude share the same attraction?
> So how does that equate " love?"


I don't think you understood my point, CM. I dont think she's necessarily in love with this particular guy. But from what she has said they clearly had the potential to see if something could grow, and I'm wondering what LG's perception of love is and if it's realistic.

So I think she should stop sending mixed signals, stop using this man to boost her ego, make it clear she is not interested, and go out and find someone she does love.

And LG, you should also develop a bit more interpersonal intelligence, and/or stop with the disingenuous lack of understanding of other people's emotions. It's borderline acceptable at 25, but not at all cute at 35.


----------



## lovelygirl

joshbjoshb said:


> Wow, LG. Let me tell you something: maybe he is not ready for relationship, but you are just as far as he is.
> 
> Throughout this entire thread you are busy protecting yourself, not to be hurt. So you are scared not to show him any love or any affection, pretends to always be in control, so you will not be hurt.


I know what it is like to let myself go.
I was in a relationship where I tried to give my ex everything. I was VERY affectionate and caring. He was a real disappointment and didn't care in the slightest. So,from then on I try to over-think before I take any further step with any other guy.
That's why I've been single for more than 3 years now and unless there's a guy who is not afraid to pursue me and is 100% sure he wants to be with me then I won't even bother to take further steps with him. 
My guy friend doesn't have enough balls to grab me or even tell me how he feels now after the signals that I showed him.
I don't want to be an option. I don't need someone to be with me just because they might feel lonely or anything of the sort.
I see he comes back to me when he doesn't have better options.



> You sounds a very intellectual person, and perhaps this is part of the issue. Moving to the next step would require you to stop being so smart, and becoming more affectionate and loving.


I think I'm very well educated but this doesn't have to do with affection. He is intellectual too. But I think this is irrelevant to our problem.



> I read your story with the kiss. You wouldn't do any move - i.e. get close to him and hug, and give a little kiss that would have become in a second a very loving kiss!! - but instead choose to "command him" (what the heck) the kiss you. He was taken aback, and you, scared of the possibility of being rejected, were very fast to show that no, I wasn't really serious, and moved on.


It sounds like a command. but it wasn't. You'd have to be there to see what it was like and how I said it. 




> And guess what went through his head when you commanded him to kiss you (???) - is she really serious? Does she really want me? So he figured let me wait another moment to see if yes, or is she still the same judgmental person she is. And guess what he found out.


I am not judgmental, otherwise I wouldn't be friends with him.

There is a very good book for you to read. It's called "the surrendered wife" - you are not a wife, and perhaps even you won't marry him, but if you won't read and practice this, your marriage would be doomed, and your husband would have a very hard time with you.



> I am saying it as someone who is married to someone who still, couple of years after we wed, still didn't let her guards down, and is still scared to expose herself to love, and yes, the option of hurt.


I'm sorry to hear this about your wife but I don't think I am anywhere near her. I see no reason why a wife would keep her guards up and let herself go. Being a wife and giving everything to your husband is something totally different.
You can't compare my situation with yours. 
When I read stories similar to yours I always feel very sorry for those husbands who don't have their wives' attention.

But this guy is not my husband nor my boyfriend so I see no reason to let my guards down as long as he gives me mixed signals.


----------



## lovelygirl

Lyris said:


> I don't think you understood my point, CM. I dont think she's necessarily in love with this particular guy. But from what she has said they clearly had the potential to see if something could grow, and I'm wondering what LG's perception of love is and if it's realistic.
> 
> So I think she should stop sending mixed signals, stop using this man to boost her ego, make it clear she is not interested, and go out and find someone she does love.
> 
> And LG, you should also develop a bit more interpersonal intelligence, and/or stop with the disingenuous lack of understanding of other people's emotions. It's borderline acceptable at 25, but not at all cute at 35.


Lyrics, I don't want some love just like in the fairy tales and I don't know why you think my view of love is unrealistic.
Just because me and him are not FWB doesn't mean my view of love is unrealistic.


----------



## Lon

lovelygirl said:


> That's why I've been single for more than 3 years now and *unless there's a guy who is not afraid to pursue me and is 100% sure he wants to be with me then I won't even bother to take further steps with him*.
> My guy friend doesn't have enough balls to grab me or even tell me how he feels now after the signals that I showed him.
> I don't want to be an option. I don't need someone to be with me just because they might feel lonely or anything of the sort.
> I see he comes back to me when he doesn't have better options.


Everybody starts as an option, when pursuing a woman, most guys are going to test for interest before they fully invest, and if you send signals that you are not interested you are removing yourself from being an option. If you want a man to continue pursuing you have to give him something to go after. I hate to see people miss out on love because they were too afraid to put themselves out there (I suffer from the same problem, but from the man's perspective - I am clumsy at testing for interest and when I think I have positive feedback I either misinterpret or else fail to pursue agressively enough).


----------



## joshbjoshb

lovelygirl said:


> I know what it is like to let myself go.
> I was in a relationship where I tried to give my ex everything. I was VERY affectionate and caring. He was a real disappointment and didn't care in the slightest. So,from then on I try to over-think before I take any further step with any other guy.
> That's why I've been single for more than 3 years now and unless there's a guy who is not afraid to pursue me and is 100% sure he wants to be with me then I won't even bother to take further steps with him. \.


Cool. So that's exactly what I thought. And you are going to over think everyone that is approaching you, and make them "work" in order to have the honor of hold your hands. 

You will find such a husband. Except, very likely, he is going to be an a-hole.

Sorry for being so blunt.

But as I said, you are still not ready for any real relationship, till you will recover from your previous failed one.


----------



## lovelygirl

Lon said:


> Everybody starts as an option, when pursuing a woman, most guys are going to test for interest before they fully invest, and if you send signals that you are not interested you are removing yourself from being an option. If you want a man to continue pursuing you have to give him something to go after. I hate to see people miss out on love because they were too afraid to put themselves out there (I suffer from the same problem, but from the man's perspective - I am clumsy at testing for interest and when I think I have positive feedback I either misinterpret or else fail to pursue agressively enough).


Given his experience I dont think he is clumsy at testing for interest. Maybe he's not that interested to make the first step. 
He has had me in his bed several times so he could've given it a first try.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

lovelygirl said:


> Given his experience I dont think he is clumsy at testing for interest. Maybe he's not that interested to make the first step.
> He has had me in his bed several times so he could've given it a first try.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The thing is, LG, is that he DID take that first step. Yes, I know, you said you discussed it and agreed it would be a bad idea, etc. I'm not so sure that he was really agreeing with you so much as he was accepting the boundaries you set up. You said no, though you say you were joking when you asked if he was drunk, he may have been hurt by that more than you know. Yes, 7 years have gone by. During this time, you have allowed him to behave as a lover would. But he didn't go forward because you SAID no. And it wasn't so much that you SAID it as the WAY you did. He may have played it off really well, but I think it really stung. 

So now, you say "kiss me!"... He's confused. You have been saying "no, no no"...but your actions have said "YES!"... He hesitated because you have been saying all along that you didn't want a relationship with him. He didn't jump at the chance because he didn't know wtf to think! And after, when he ASKED you.... you LIED TO HIM! Dude's not gonna take the chance if you keep lying to him.

Honestly, I'd sit down (again) and have THIS talk with him. Tell him that yes, you are attracted to him (which he obviously already knows), but the idea of having more than friendship with him scares you. And yes, it does. If it didn't, you wouldn't be talking the way you are here, now.  You are afraid that you will give him your heart...and he will trample it, just as he did the girls he talked to you about. You will either keep a good friend, gain a boyfriend (if he shows real change from how you have known him in the past), or you will lose your friend. Life is full of risks. I took a risk giving a young man my number 14 years ago. We are now married. The guy just might surprise you.


----------



## Lyris

> That's why I've been single for more than 3 years now and unless there's a guy who is not afraid to pursue me and is 100% sure he wants to be with me then I won't even bother to take further steps with him.


This perfectly illustrates why I think your view of love is unrealistic. You're not 18 anymore. Teenaged boys act like this. They'll fall in love before they ever touch you. Grown men are more cautious, unless they are psychopaths.

Adult relationships grow together. It's not about being pursued, putting obstacles in the way and seeing if he'll overcome them. Or possibly a certain type of man likes this, the kind who is only interested in what he can't have. As soon as you capitulate, he'll lose interest. 

My husband acted like you describe in this quote. But he was 18. He was still undefended and inexperienced. You're too old for that now, unless you want someone really immature for his age. And from other posts of yours I've read, I don't think you'd be interested in a man like that.


----------



## lovelygirl

Alright! What should be my next step? Should I have the talk and be the first to start it or should I wait for him to say something? 
I want us to be clear and honest with each other once and for all!! I want to know what goes on his mind and I want to be honest with him. I'm tired of this game. I couldn't stop crying this evening. It's not that I was crying for him but for all this $hitty situation and the wall between us and how I'm tired of just waiting for this stupid, senseless drama to be over. I'm feeling very sad now and probably very lonely. I just wish he was here so that we could talk. It's 1:16 am over here and I'm finding myself thinking about everything we've gone through and how we could make things better and act more mature. We're both at fault for this so I want to fix it whether I get in a relationship with him or not. I want clarity so that I can close this stupid chapter cuz I'm tired of going back and forth with him. I just want some honesty from him just as I want to give him honesty. I don't want us to play each other and give fake hopes. 

Should I call him tomorrow and tell him we need to talk, like GROWN UPs?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen

RandomDude said:


> I don't know Jaquen, would you continue to invest emotions in a woman if she rejected you outright?


I did.

She's my wife.


----------



## lovelygirl

Also, I want to thank everyone who's posting here. Thank you for your time guys! You're helping me a lot!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dollystanford

LG you need to take the iniative here - why wait for him to say something? You're the one that's sitting up at 1am crying over this, so I think you need to be the one to make the first moves to settle it

None of us really know you and we certainly don't know him so all we can really see is the dynamics of your relationship through what you've told us. There are clearly feelings on both sides that are unresolved and unless you bite the bullet now this will just continue

So do it!


----------



## Lyris

I think you should do exactly what Maricha said.


----------



## jaquen

OK LG, at this point you've disagreed with almost everyone, and don't seem particularly open to putting yourself out there for fear of being made a fool of (the chance we ALL take when attempting to move into romance).

So all I'd like to know is why, at this point, is this man even in your life? There seems to be a lot of drama here for just a friend.

Why are you even holding on to this drama filled relationship?


----------



## jaquen

lovelygirl said:


> Given his experience I dont think he is clumsy at testing for interest. Maybe he's not that interested to make the first step.
> He has had me in his bed several times so he could've given it a first try.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The man has given it several tries.

He made it clear he wanted to be in a relationship. You laughed it off.

He has crawled into your bed, put his hands all over your body, and get your panties wet. What did you expect him to do next? Force himself on you?

You are the one who has failed to respond.

He is not the one coming off clumsy here LG. I love ya, but I really think you're a bit blind to how off kilter you are here.


----------



## lovelygirl

jaquen said:


> OK LG, at this point you've disagreed with almost everyone, and don't seem particularly open to putting yourself out there for fear of being made a fool of (the chance we ALL take when attempting to move into romance).
> 
> So all I'd like to know is why, at this point, is this man even in your life? There seems to be a lot of drama here for just a friend.
> 
> Why are you even holding on to this drama filled relationship?


There was no drama until recently. Actually I hate the word "drama". It's for teens. I'd like to use the word "misunderstandings".
Back to your question .. It all started once I thought of him as more than a friend... I started seeing him just like he saw me in the past. 
Before this, I was just careless and didnt put much thought/effort into the things he said or did. I've always thought of him as a playboy so I never took him seriously. I was so indifferent to the idea of being a couple with him that I even used to offer him other girls or set him up on dates. We used to get along pretty well and almost never argued about anything. 
So, the most part of our friendship was drama-free, until very recently (this year) when I started having sexual thoughts about him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen

Lovely, your last few posts on this topic really make me wonder if you're falling in love with this guy, and are just too terrified to admit it and risk being hurt by a man you perceive to be a "player".


----------



## Maricha75

lovelygirl said:


> There was no drama until recently. *Actually I hate the word "drama". It's for teens.* I'd like to use the word "misunderstandings".
> Back to your question .. It all started once I thought of him as more than a friend... I started seeing him just like he saw me in the past.
> Before this, I was just careless and didnt put much thought/effort into the things he said or did. I've always thought of him as a playboy so I never took him seriously. I was so indifferent to the idea of being a couple with him that I even used to offer him other girls or set him up on dates. We used to get along pretty well and almost never argued about anything.
> So, the most part of our friendship was drama-free, until very recently (this year) when I started having sexual thoughts about him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh, trust me... PLENTY of older adults surround themselves with drama lol. A woman who USED to be a friend of mine attracted drama CONSTANTLY... that's one reason she's no longer my friend... that and she used me and when she got what she wanted, she never came around anymore. Better that way anyway... Hubby and I are pretty good friends with her ex-husband and his new girlfriend now. LOL


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## RandomDude

jaquen said:


> I did.
> She's my wife.


Well your wife got lucky 
Cause I sure don't give 'em second chances lol



> Before this, I was just careless and didnt put much thought/effort into the things he said or did. I've always thought of him as a playboy so I never took him seriously.


Playboys need love too lol

Anyways LG, I didn't think you should go through with this because you seemed rather indifferent towards him, I thought you would be over him already, but I guess not. It seems you're not satisfied of the answer he's given you, looks like you are interested after all. So now that you've been up all night thinking about all this, and wanting to get to the bottom of this once and for all...

Well in THAT case, then I would have agree with the others that it this means facing the music.

In my opinion you may be setting yourself up for awkwardness and rejection - but thats because I understand men like him considering I used to be him, I don't give woman a second shot (pray he's not like me, but more like Jaquen!). However, this IS the only way you will get a solid, honest answer however, if you want to bypass the games.

There is another way, but it's complicated, and you have to really understand men for that. It's getting him to pursue you, protecting yourself while getting what you want from him. But it still doesn't beat a solid, honest answer and chances are you'll still be up all night thinking about him/what ifs/what you two are playing at/etc.

It's up to you, you have to make a decision, you know your situation best, follow your instincts. If it's meant to be, it'll happen.


----------



## lovelygirl

RandomDude said:


> Well your wife got lucky
> Cause I sure don't give 'em second chances lol
> 
> 
> 
> Playboys need love too lol
> 
> Anyways LG, I didn't think you should go through with this because you seemed rather indifferent towards him, I thought you would be over him already, but I guess not. It seems you're not satisfied of the answer he's given you, looks like you are interested after all. So now that you've been up all night thinking about all this, and wanting to get to the bottom of this once and for all...
> 
> Well in THAT case, then I would have agree with the others that it this means facing the music.
> 
> *In my opinion you may be setting yourself up for awkwardness and rejection - but thats because I understand men like him considering I used to be him, I don't give woman a second shot *(pray he's not like me, but more like Jaquen!). However, this IS the only way you will get a solid, honest answer however, if you want to bypass the games.
> 
> There is another way, but it's complicated, and you have to really understand men for that. It's getting him to pursue you, protecting yourself while getting what you want from him. But it still doesn't beat a solid, honest answer and chances are you'll still be up all night thinking about him/what ifs/what you two are playing at/etc.
> 
> It's up to you, you have to make a decision, you know your situation best, follow your instincts. If it's meant to be, it'll happen.


The thing I care more about is not to be in a relationship with him/to be given a shot but instead I care more about making things clear between us. I want to know what he really wants out of this friendship. I'm not looking to get a positive answer but I'm more interested in having a very serious and honest conversation with him. 

I will wait 'til he brings it up himself. I don't want to make a big deal out of nothing and the last thing I want to do is to look/sound ridiculous in front of him. 
If it is really important for him he will definitely mention something about it.


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## oliviapeter31

I think you should tell him what you feel about him. There will be more complicated if you just keep silence. Try to be clear with him about the relationship you want with him.


----------



## Caribbean Man

I have learned quite a few things on TAM.
One of the things I've learned is that all cheaters follow a script.
It's called " cheater script."

Well, there is also something called a " player script."
These are some of the things players do.

Players have lots of female " friends." It's how they survive. They live for sex.
Players are nice friends to have , until you get played and your feelings hurt. 
Players put sex first , in between and last. At first, they appear to be romantic, but generally, they have no time for romance.
Players ALWAYS purposely make you feel vulnerable , and then pretend to be your knight in shining armor. It's called " push & pull."

Players use themselves as bait.

Players sometimes talk about their sexual conquest with the woman he wants to fcuk. Insecure women are easily confused by this, it makes him look desirable in their eyes ,because other women desire him.

Players never commit to a relationship because they get bored easily. 
Players fool women because women fool themselves into thinking that he wants a " relationship." He only wants selfish sex. In the end you ALWAYS feel used.

Players always come around late, just in time for a " booty call."


Players always try to isolate you , so that they control the sexual environment and tension. ( come over to my place.)


Players are generally selfish, and inconsiderate.
The problem with the player in not just the casual sex, but the mind games that leaves their conquest confused, hurt and jaded.

The ONLY way to tame a player is to have self respect and confidence.Never show your vulnerability, instead let him tell you EXACTLY WHAT HE WANTS FROM YOU.
Then you tell him what you want from him,give him an ultimatum and
STICK TO YOUR GUNS.
Do not have sex with him,unless its on YOUR terms, but you must have firm boundaries.. Eg; You can request that he breaks all contact with his FWB's and casual sex contacts. If he agrees ,and does it, then it's a positive signal. If he disagrees,and calls you " insecure and controlling " then he's still in " player mode" and you are his next FWB.
Be prepared to walk.

Yes I'm projecting, I have been there, done that.


----------



## lovelygirl

CM, the "player's script" that you described here fits him perfectly. He loves to show off and make himself look as desirable as possible. I will not give him the satisfaction of being just another one on his list if that is what he's looking for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris

Hey LG, have you seen Chasing Amy? Chasing Amy (1997) - IMDb. A lot of it doesn't apply to your situation, but the car scene you described before really reminds me of this movie. It's a sentimental fave for me, although you would have only been ten or so when it came out, you might still like it, if you haven't seen it.


----------



## RandomDude

> The ONLY way to tame a player is to have self respect and confidence


Yup pretty much, I agree

@LG

In other words, you have to beat him at his own game 
Might be fun!


----------



## lovelygirl

Lyris said:


> Hey LG, have you seen Chasing Amy? Chasing Amy (1997) - IMDb. A lot of it doesn't apply to your situation, but the car scene you described before really reminds me of this movie. It's a sentimental fave for me, although you would have only been ten or so when it came out, you might still like it, if you haven't seen it.


I haven't seen it. Or at least I don't remember doing so.

I'll download it. Thank you!


----------



## RandomDude

> I will wait 'til he brings it up himself. I don't want to make a big deal out of nothing and the last thing I want to do is to look/sound ridiculous in front of him.


That is a good idea, you could also "up the stakes" a bit by dating yourself. Might get him moving just a little bit faster


----------



## Jonesey

lovelygirl said:


> He's been living in Italy for years and *Italians have this tendency of sharing the same bed and acting too friendly/close with OSF as if they were lovers*.
> I know I'm coming in late here.But where did you get that from?
> The bolded part
> 
> Maybe that's why I don't blame him that much. He's got it from that culture?
> THat's why I put it up for discussion because some guys have it just in them to act that way towards their female friends.
> But it's still weird to me, althugh he keeps on telling me that I should free myself from complexities and be more easy going.
> 
> If this is just a trap to make me open my legs for him or if he's naturally like this with all his female friends... , is something I'll never be able to tell.


----------



## lovelygirl

@Jonesey - because he says that's how he's been behaving with other girls over there, that they are more easy going and they don't mind sharing beds with their OSF. He says that's the way the Italian culture is. 
Also, from what I've seen on TV and heard this sounds to be true. 
But again, I could be wrong.


----------



## Caribbean Man

jaquen said:


> Lovely, *your last few posts on this topic really make me wonder if you're falling in love with this guy, *and are just too terrified to admit it and risk being hurt by a man you perceive to be a "player".


She is not falling in love with this man.
Her mind is in a state of flux or what I call cognitive distortion.

It is something that some men do if they know which buttons to push.

In her mind she , wants to feel loved and romanced in a certain was. But her body just wants sex.
LG said that her "..vagina was screaming yes, but her mind was saying no.."
Dude knows this,so he's trying to wear her down.


For some women, the way to their pvssy is their MIND. Stimulate their passions and fantasies and they will give in to you. It will take some time, but a real man knows how to do that. 

Then for other women, the way to their pvssy is through their body. Touch them and they will melt. 

If dude wants a relationship with LG, all he has to do is tell her and make a compromise. HE needs to grow up, not LG. *He's *playing games with her head, so LG is well within her right to play a defensive game against him, despite the fact that she wants sex.

Dude knows what turns him on, just the possibility of new pvssy, he knows what he wants and is aggressively going after it. That's *his *game

LG knows exactly what turns her on, that's why she has that ideal in her mind. Its her fantasy and any man who wants her must be willing to fullfill it. That's* her* game.

Of course love is a risk , but its not reckless risk. If she's seeing certain signs before, why should she take the plunge? Why should she wear her heart on her sleeve for this man? What is he giving her in return? 
Sex?
Clearly, she's conflicted that's why she's on this forum, but does that mea that she is immature of wrong in her approach to relationships?
I think not.
IMO, her attitude to dude in this situation is the ideal response to his crassness. 

"...Alls fair in love and war..."

Edit
*Will ANY woman on this thread, date and have sex with a man who continuously brags to you about himself and his sexual conquests?

Feel free to post your responses!*


----------



## Maricha75

Caribbean Man said:


> *Will ANY woman on this thread, date and have sex with a man who continuously brags to you about himself and his sexual conquests?
> 
> Feel free to post your responses!*


Why *thank you* CM for permission to post in the thread! 

So, I'll go first, I guess. To answer your question: no, I wouldn't, and didn't have sex with any many who continuously bragged about himself and his sexual conquests. Nor did I lose sleep, up all night crying, because I was confused about a friendship which could be more.. you know the "what ifs". I never allowed such a man to touch me in an intimate fashion. SHE has. And that is the BIG difference there. SHE has allowed such things to continue, whether out of confusion over her own feelings or because he was just that convincing in his tale that "Italians are like this". Now, LG has said she wants it all out there, once and for all. SHE said she does. How about encouraging her instead of discouraging her? 

Sigh... just one more reason I'm glad I married a virgin. None of this "player" bullsh!t.


----------



## Amyd

This is a loooonnngggg thread for a simple problem:

He want's sex.
She want's attention.

Nobody is getting what they want. He needs to find a girl to f*ck; she needs to find a nice girlfriend to go to the movies with.

Problem solved.


----------



## Amyd

I do feel bad for lovelygirl and wrote a post on the "new dating scene."

Strange Sex | "You Know You're Borderline When…"


----------



## lovelygirl

Maricha, just because I allowed him in bed doesn't automatically mean I should allow him inside of me. 
As I previously said, I've been crying because I hate this whole situation but not necessarily crying for him as a person.

And if you remember in one of my posts (while admitting he's a sexual fantasy...)
My vagina screams even when I think about Nick Carter or Colin Farrel ( I know it's sounds stupid) but that's what sexual fantasies are all about. It's visual.

But It doesn't mean I have to give myself in at the very first chance I have with him. 
Of course when some hot guy touches you at night and does some foreplay.. you'll get turned on but that's not necessarily "love".. Love takes time, effort and patience and it doesn't happen out of the blue, just from a touch or a kiss.

He's trying to find my weak spots and take advantage of them and I allowed it and let it go *as far as I wanted because it was convenient to me and it was making me feel good.* Although his aim was to go further, I'm sure he, too, was liking what I was allowing.
As CM said, we both played our game but now I'm tired of this game and want some clarity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Maricha75

lovelygirl said:


> Maricha, just because I allowed him in bed doesn't automatically mean I should allow him inside of me.
> As I previously said, I've been crying because I hate this whole situation but not necessarily crying for him as a person.
> 
> And if you remember in one of my posts (while admitting he's a sexual fantasy...)
> My vagina screams even when I think about Nick Carter or Colin Farrel ( I know it's sounds stupid) but that's what sexual fantasies are all about. It's visual.
> 
> But It doesn't mean I have to give myself in at the very first chance I have with him.
> Of course when some hot guy touches you at night and does some foreplay.. you'll get turned on but that's not necessarily "love".. Love takes time, effort and patience and it doesn't happen out of the blue, just from a touch or a kiss.
> 
> He's trying to find my weak spots and take advantage of them and I allowed it and let it go *as far as I wanted because it was convenient to me and it was making me feel good.* Although his aim was to go further, I'm sure he, too, was liking what I was allowing.
> As CM said, we both played our game but now I'm tired of this game and want some clarity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Oh FFS! LG, I'm not telling you to just "give it up" to him. Seriously! All I am saying is that if you didn't want things to even POSSIBLY escalate, you should have made the boundaries CRYSTAL CLEAR, and STUCK to them. Now, you are upset over a situation which you could easily have prevented, had you stuck to YOUR boundaries. If you want to keep things going as they have been, fine. If you want to escalate them, fine. If you want to go in a different direction, fine. But pick SOMETHING and STICK to it. And if you change your mind in ANY way... DO NOT expect the man to be a MIND READER. 

Incidentally, men I considered to be ONLY friends NEVER shared a bed with me. I have shared a bed with 3 men in my life... the two boyfriends I had sex with before I met my husband, and now with my husband. There has never been any caressing, touching, petting between myself and men who were ONLY friends. If that is going on, you are NOT only friends... you just haven't had SEX with them.

So, do yourself a favor and figure out what you want with regards to this friendship...or if you want more than that. Have it out with him so neither of you is still in limbo.

Oh, regarding sexual fantasies... sorry, you got me there... my body doesn't scream for anyone other than my husband, not even in fantasies. Can't say for dreams though... I never remember the blasted things!


----------



## Caribbean Man

Amyd said:


> This is a loooonnngggg thread for a simple problem:
> 
> He want's sex.
> She want's [ love & attention.]
> 
> Nobody is getting what they want. He needs to find a girl to f*ck; she needs to find a nice girlfriend to go to the movies with.
> 
> Problem solved.


FINALLY!

Somebody gets it right.

[ Hope you don't mind that I inserted the red word,_love_ ]


----------



## Jonesey

lovelygirl said:


> Maricha, just because I allowed him in bed doesn't automatically mean I should allow him inside of me.
> As I previously said, I've been crying because I hate this whole situation but not necessarily crying for him as a person.
> 
> And if you remember in one of my posts (while admitting he's a sexual fantasy...)
> *My vagina screams * Watch you language girl,there are lot of kids here


----------



## lovelygirl

Maricha75 said:


> Oh, regarding sexual fantasies... sorry, you got me there... my body doesn't scream for anyone other than my husband, not even in fantasies.


Well... obviously your fantasies scream for your husband. That's how it should be. 
But you can't compare yourself to me. I don't have a husband so my fantasies scream for random hot looking guys out there. 

After all I'm single, right? 




> Can't say for dreams though... I never remember the blasted things!


lol. Don't get me started on that one.


----------



## Amyd

Caribbean Man said:


> FINALLY!
> 
> Somebody gets it right.
> 
> [ Hope you don't mind that I inserted the red word,_love_ ]


I don't mind a bit. Artistic embellishment is always welcomed.


----------



## Amyd

Jonesey said:


> lovelygirl said:
> 
> 
> 
> Maricha, just because I allowed him in bed doesn't automatically mean I should allow him inside of me.
> As I previously said, I've been crying because I hate this whole situation but not necessarily crying for him as a person.
> 
> And if you remember in one of my posts (while admitting he's a sexual fantasy...)
> *My vagina screams * Watch you language girl,there are lot of kids here
> 
> 
> 
> My vagina screamed once. I told it to shut up.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jonesey

lovelygirl said:


> @Jonesey - because he says that's how he's been behaving with other girls over there, that they are more easy going and they don't mind sharing beds with their OSF. He says that's the way the Italian culture is.
> Also, from what I've seen on TV and heard this sounds to be true.
> But again, I could be wrong.


As a European i can tell you that he is so full of sh..t.
That simply would not work with Italian women.
There brother´s would kick his ass if they ever would have find that out.. BTW did you know that Italian men are the biggest MOMA´S boy there is? The rarely move out from there parent´s
until they around 30-35 year´s old.I´m not making this up.
Italien and french men are very often seen as the Joke version 
of Casanova


----------



## lovelygirl

Jonesey said:


> As a European i can tell you that he is so full of sh..t.
> That simply would not work with Italian women.
> There brother´s would kick his ass if they ever would have find that out.. BTW did you know that Italian men are the biggest MOMA´S boy there is? The rarely move out from there parent´s
> until they around 30-35 year´s old.I´m not making this up.
> Italien and french men are very often seen as the Joke version
> of Casanova


I am European too but it doesn't mean that's full of **** lol. 
There could be some truthfulness in it because I've seen it on TV but then again I can't say it's like this 100%. 
He knows it better lol. 

Yeah, I know Italians are Momma's boys lol. That's how some Albanians are too. {I' Albanian btw}


----------



## Jonesey

lovelygirl said:


> I am European too but it doesn't mean that's full of **** lol.
> There could be some truthfulness in it because *I've seen it on TV* Well then,on Tv it must be true. but then again I can't say it's like this 100%.
> He knows it better lol.
> 
> Yeah, I know Italians are Momma's boys lol. That's how some Albanians are too. {I' Albanian btw}


I know you are Albanian..Are the blood feud´s still around,
when a man bonk´s another man´s wife?You guys are so hardcore when it come´s to cheating..


----------



## lovelygirl

Jonesey said:


> I know you are Albanian..[./QUOTE]
> How do you know that? lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are the blood feud´s still around,
> when a man bonk´s another man´s wife?You guys are so hardcore when it come´s to cheating..
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, Albanian guys definitely go too hardcore on another man who steals someone else's wife. It goes as hard as committing a murder to the cheating wife or the other man.
> Lat time I heard about cheating was two days ago when the cheating wife was hammered into pieces and she died on the way to the hospital.
> 
> Divorcing is the least they can get.
Click to expand...


----------



## Jellybeans

jaquen said:


> I did.
> 
> She's my wife.


Cute 



Lyris said:


> This perfectly illustrates why I think your view of love is unrealistic. You're not 18 anymore. Teenaged boys act like this. They'll fall in love before they ever touch you. *Grown men are more cautious, unless they are psychopaths*.


:rofl: Good one!



lovelygirl said:


> So, the most part of our friendship was drama-free, until very recently (this year) when I started having sexual thoughts about him.


That usually does it.


----------



## Jellybeans

Caribbean Man said:


> *Will ANY woman on this thread, date and have sex with a man who continuously brags to you about himself and his sexual conquests?*


Not me. That is an automatic turn off and screams ********* to me. I would not even waste my time talking to someone like that as far as romantic involvement goes.



Maricha75 said:


> Oh FFS! LG, I'm not telling you to just "give it up" to him. Seriously!


Made me laugh.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Jellybeans said:


> Not me. That is an automatic turn off and screams ********* to me. I would not even waste my time talking to someone like that as far as romantic involvement goes.


My point exactly.
So it makes no sense LG telling him anything of how she feels. 

No need for her to " make the plunge" with this guy.


----------



## BjornFree

Caribbean Man said:


> My point exactly.
> So it makes no sense LG telling him anything of how she feels.
> 
> No need for her to " make the plunge" with this guy.


Yes but then there's really no point being friends with him either. Sure he might be good company and all but LG if you're thinking about a happy marriage in the future, you need to drop your crushes and friends who you're attracted to. You don't ever want to invite trouble into your future relationships.

Because if you do get into a relationship with somebody else, you can be certain that he'll start aggressively pursuing you. And then "one thing lead to the other" and regrets galore.


----------



## Jellybeans

Caribbean Man said:


> *Will ANY woman on this thread, date and have sex with a man who continuously brags to you about himself and his sexual conquests?*


Not me. That is an automatic turn off and screams D*UCHEBAG to me. I would not even waste my time talking to someone like that as far as romantic involvement goes.



Maricha75 said:


> Oh FFS! LG, I'm not telling you to just "give it up" to him. Seriously!


Made me laugh.


----------



## lovelygirl

BjornFree said:


> Yes but then there's really no point being friends with him either. Sure he might be good company and all but LG if you're thinking about a happy marriage in the future, you need to drop your crushes and friends who you're attracted to. You don't ever want to invite trouble into your future relationships.


Bjorn, to think about dropping this guy because of marriage is too soon yet. God knows when I might get married [If I will] and to drop him right now is premature, I'd say. 
It's too soon to think about future relationships either.
He will be dropped if necessary, depending on the circumstances. [or I could be dropped by him. Who knows]


There's some point in being friends with him because we have common interests and that's what friendship is about.


----------



## jaquen

RandomDude said:


> Well your wife got lucky
> Cause I sure don't give 'em second chances lol


Didn't really have much choice. She was my best friend, I fell in love with her, I tried to ignore it, stifle it, and stuff it down, God finally literally whispered in my spirit "this will be your wife, and she's going to eventually change into x/y/z kind of woman (my wife was a very different person back then)". 

I was 19 years old. It took almost 2 years of constant rejection, and my wife telling me it would never happen because she saw me like a brother, and that the very thought disgusted her, before we got together. I would have given up, but I _knew_ what I heard down to the deepest parts of me. Faith kept me going.

And here we are, been together for 12 years and counting, still in love, she's still crazy about me. And she's not only my wife, but she's _exactly_ the person the Lord told me she'd become way back when I was a teenager. It pays to listen and follow through, against all odds, when you truly _know_ a thing.

Sorry for the hijack Lovely!


----------



## jaquen

lovelygirl said:


> Maricha, just because I allowed him in bed doesn't automatically mean I should allow him inside of me.
> As I previously said, I've been crying because I hate this whole situation but not necessarily crying for him as a person.
> 
> And if you remember in one of my posts (while admitting he's a sexual fantasy...)
> My vagina screams even when I think about Nick Carter or Colin Farrel ( I know it's sounds stupid) but that's what sexual fantasies are all about. It's visual.
> 
> But It doesn't mean I have to give myself in at the very first chance I have with him.
> Of course when some hot guy touches you at night and does some foreplay.. you'll get turned on but that's not necessarily "love".. Love takes time, effort and patience and it doesn't happen out of the blue, just from a touch or a kiss.
> 
> He's trying to find my weak spots and take advantage of them and I allowed it and let it go *as far as I wanted because it was convenient to me and it was making me feel good.* Although his aim was to go further, I'm sure he, too, was liking what I was allowing.
> As CM said, we both played our game but now I'm tired of this game and want some clarity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thoughts of Nick Carter and Colin Farrell aren't keeping you up a night, weeping into your pillow.

Thoughts of Nick Carter and Colin Farrell aren't sparking you to make threads on TAM.

Thoughts of Nick Carter and Colin Farrell don't have you obsessing over the state of your relationship.

CM is my boy, but he's leading you astray. JHe's telling you what you need to hear, and you are sopping it up because it makes you feel in control of this situation. You don't spend this much emotional turmoil, thought, effort, and tears on a "game".

Regardless of what you're boys intentions are, you are sprung. You're just too detached and inexperienced to know just how deep and fargone you are over this guy.

You can stop this nonsense tonight if you decided to take the risk of being hurt. It's the risk we ALL take in matters of love.



lovelygirl said:


> Love takes time, effort and patience and it doesn't happen out of the blue, just from a touch or a kiss


That sounds like a lovely platitude.

But it's false. For many people love can happen in a flash, out of the blue. It doesn't take all people "time, effort, and patience" to fall in love.

And this is irrelevant considering that you have been in relationship with this person for YEARS. So even if you are falling in love with him, or are there and don't know it, you've had tons of time to arrive at that destination.

The more you talk about this situation, the more details emerge that tell me you are in deep and total denial about how you really feel about this man.

You sound totally sprung over him, but are terrified that this "player" will hurt you. So you're spinning elaborate, complex stories in your head to make it all seem clearer to you than it really is.

I could be dead wrong, but time will tell.


----------



## BjornFree

LG's hamster at work. Machiavelli shares such fun links.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Jaqen,
The difference in LG's case is that this guy is not a " normal" guy.
What you are saying would definitely work IF he wasn't bent on exploiting her sexuality for HIS purposes. If the feelings were mutual, then LG could take the plunge and explore both a sexual and romantic relationship with him.
LG is infatuated with him because he's hot , and she's inexperienced.


My story is very similar to hers.
I was the obnoxious dude who had lots of women and she was the quiet girl who was infatuated with me, and we were supposed to be "just friends."
That went on for four years!
She would take me out on dates and pay for everything. She would always remember my birthday, she would do things for me that no other woman took the time to do.
I just couldn't see that though she was in love with me, the lifestyle I lived was preventing something beautiful from happening.
I thought she was naive .
This girl used to come to my place and do my laundry, clean etc. and we were not dating, never even kissed.
I asked her if she wanted a relationship and she denied two times and laughed at me. But just like you, I knew deep down inside that she was attracted to me. She would call me around midnight after work just to find out how was my day. We would talk for hours.
But I was immature and still having fun. My idea of a relationship with her was party and sex, just like all the other women She was not a party girl, and that was not her idea of a relationship.
Lots of guys would hit on her, she never took them on.
In essence, she was hoping I would come around, and I didn't really care.
I met and fell in love with another woman. I told her( my wife) I could see that it hurt her when I told her but she wished me the best.
That relationship ended badly.
She cheated , and I was hurt, there she [ my wife] was yet again, taking me out on dates,trying to help me get over that other woman .
WTF?
I decided to ask her again and this time she responded positively, and laid down her terms. No sex.
It was one of the best decisions I have ever made. Within 1 year we were married.

My advice to LG is to stick to her guns.
I also think this guy is toxic, and her feelings for him is preventing her from developing other relationships which could be much more rewarding. She gets involved with him at this point , she would get badly burnt and end up being jaded.
_Their friendship would also end._
She has to deal with the confusion in her head. The tears, the fantasies , the disappointments , the drama. That too, is part of the game of love.
Everybody's different.

Every woman has this picture in their mind about the man she wants.
Some of them end up getting married to " plan B " after years of ONS, FWB and failed relationships.

You and I were not " lucky" in terms of choosing and marrying a good woman.
We both had a dream of the woman we wanted to marry, stuck to our dream, and found that person.


----------



## jaquen

Caribbean Man said:


> Jaqen,
> The difference in LG's case is that this guy is not a " normal" guy.


My last post isn't about the guy. Whether he's "normal", or a hardcore player, doesn't matter.

LG has to deal with her feelings for him. Whether he was virgin, a player, or a demon incarnate, the only feelings that she can wrestle, manage, or define are her own.

She needs to confront the truth about her own feelings. And if they are as deep as I suspect, then she needs to take the chance of dealing with them.

The games need to stop. They're childish. She also needs to learn that we all take risks in love. Plenty of women married the "player", and it worked out, just as it didn't work out for others. But look around CM, you know very well that there are millions of hurting women, whose husbands screwed them over, who would never, ever be classified as a player.

You're trying to guide her from the perspective of enabling her extremely high, over the top defense mechanisms. You are very protective of her, as if she were your teen daughter. It's endearing, and I respect you hardcore for your passion. But LG is halfway to 30. She's no longer a 16 year old who needs these defense mechanisms to survive. She has got to, at some point, start living in the reality of the world, and facing the realities of attraction, love, and heartbreak. That's life.

Worst case scenario? She falls for a player, and she gets played. OK. She'll recover. We've all had to walk through our own brand of hell.

But she will NEVER know, one way or another, if she never takes the risk, the chance, and just jumps.


----------



## Caribbean Man

We both agree on the same things.

All I'm adding is that she 

Look before she leaps.........

Because she's a hopeless romantic.


----------



## lovelygirl

jaquen said:


> Didn't really have much choice. She was my best friend, I fell in love with her, I tried to ignore it, stifle it, and stuff it down, God finally literally whispered in my spirit "this will be your wife, and she's going to eventually change into x/y/z kind of woman (my wife was a very different person back then)".
> 
> I was 19 years old. It took almost 2 years of constant rejection, and my wife telling me it would never happen because she saw me like a brother, and that the very thought disgusted her, before we got together. I would have given up, but I _knew_ what I heard down to the deepest parts of me. Faith kept me going.
> 
> And here we are, been together for 12 years and counting, still in love, she's still crazy about me. And she's not only my wife, but she's _exactly_ the person the Lord told me she'd become way back when I was a teenager. It pays to listen and follow through, against all odds, when you truly _know_ a thing.
> 
> Sorry for the hijack Lovely!


The story of you and your wife is beautiful but it's way different from mine. 

But just like CM said, this guy is just a player. What's the point of being in a relationship with a player? 
It's not the end of the world if I don't get in a relationship with him. 
There are plenty of more mature, confident and family-oriented guys out there who want to be in a normal relationship. It doesn't mean the relationship with such guys will end up in marriage but still I would choose them over my OSF.

Ok, suppose my OSF and I get together. 
BUT, if a better guy shows up later, I would definitely dump my OSF, without a second thought. Why? Because the first things that come to my mind when I think about the OSF are: 
SEX, FWB, ADVENTURE and HOTNESS. 
If my OSF wasn't good looking I wouldn't even consider sharing beds with him or be touched by him.  My "feelings" about him are too superficial. 

So the relationship would be an empty one and and probably one of us (or both) would end up getting hurt. I already know the outcome so what's the point of the risk?

I'd rather take risks with a "normal" guy, although even with a "normal" guy there's no security and you never know how it ends up ...but still the risk would be worth*ier*.

*I prefer to risk for/about people that hold some sort of values that are similar to mine.* 

I don't know what it is what I'm feeling but it's definitely no way near love/falling in love. At any given chance, I would dump him if someone better came along.


----------



## BjornFree

lovelygirl said:


> Ok, suppose my OSF and I get together.
> BUT, if a better guy shows up later, I would definitely dump my OSF, without a second thought.
> 
> 
> I don't know what it is what I'm feeling but it's definitely no way near love/falling in love. At any given chance, I would dump him if someone better came along.


Female Hypergamy. 

YOU need to be careful.

That right there would be a red flag for a logical guy to consider having a long term relationship with you. But thankfully lust will override logic in the short run so he might consider a purely sexual relationship.


----------



## jaquen

lovelygirl said:


> The story of you and your wife is beautiful but it's way different from mine.


Thank you!

Yes, it's different. Definitely do not want to leave the impression that I was correlating the two in a serious way. They are _very_ different scenarios. 



lovelygirl said:


> But just like CM said, this guy is just a player. What's the point of being in a relationship with a player?


I'm a product of a sweet, nice church girl and a notorious "player". So without that combo I wouldn't even be here to have this conversation with you! :rofl:



lovelygirl said:


> It's not the end of the world if I don't get in a relationship with him.
> There are plenty of more mature, confident and family-oriented guys out there who want to be in a normal relationship. It doesn't mean the relationship with such guys will end up in marriage but still I would choose them over my OSF.
> 
> Ok, suppose my OSF and I get together.
> BUT, if a better guy shows up later, I would definitely dump my OSF, without a second thought. Why? Because the first things that come to my mind when I think about the OSF are:
> SEX, FWB, ADVENTURE and HOTNESS.
> If my OSF wasn't good looking I wouldn't even consider sharing beds with him or be touched by him.  My "feelings" about him are too superficial.
> 
> So the relationship would be an empty one and and probably one of us (or both) would end up getting hurt. I already know the outcome so what's the point of the risk?
> 
> I'd rather take risks with a "normal" guy, although even with a "normal" guy there's no security and you never know how it ends up ...but still the risk would be worth*ier*.
> 
> *I prefer to risk for/about people that hold some sort of values that are similar to mine.*
> 
> I don't know what it is what I'm feeling but it's definitely no way near love/falling in love. At any given chance, I would dump him if someone better came along.


Honestly LG, if this is truly how you feel, than just call the man up today and say 'thanks for the years, but I no longer want, or need you, in my life'. You really talk about him like he's a piece of dirt. Almost everything you say about him is negative. Now you're saying that even if you got into a relationship, you "know" it will end badly, and that you're even open to dumping him for a "normal" guy.

If the guy is really this huge piece of sh*t to you, than drop him as a potential love, AND as a friend. 

Move on.


----------



## lovelygirl

BjornFree said:


> Female Hypergamy.
> 
> YOU need to be careful.
> 
> That right there would be a red flag for a logical guy to consider having a long term relationship with you. But thankfully lust will override logic in the short run so he might consider a purely sexual relationship.


You are judging me unfairly. 


What I said was specifically ABOUT HIM. FOR HIM. REFERRING TO HIM.
That was to show what I feel about him is not love. 


*BUT* it doesn't mean I'll feel this way about every guy I get in a relationship with. 
*I didn't have these thoughts with my ex. Actually, I was the one who would constantly fight for that relationship *, hoping it would last and never stopped giving him chances to improve his attitude towards me until I realized there was nothing I could do . Never for a second did I think about cheating on him or look at other options out there. 

So next time, YOU be careful when you talk on behalf of other men and what they'd think about me.


----------



## lovelygirl

jaquen said:


> If the guy is really this huge piece of sh*t to you, than drop him as a potential love, AND as a friend.
> 
> Move on.


I'm repeating myself. Just because you can't be lovers with someone doesn't mean you can't be friends. he's good as a friend but nothing more.


----------



## Amyd

lovelygirl said:


> I'm repeating myself. Just because you can't be lovers with someone doesn't mean you can't be friends. he's good as a friend but nothing more.


That is true but not the case with this guy. I'm not sure why you're so insistent that this guy must be your friend. Unless your making this whole thing up and looking for attention.


----------



## BjornFree

lovelygirl said:


> You are judging me unfairly.
> 
> 
> What I said was specifically ABOUT HIM. FOR HIM. REFERRING TO HIM.
> That was to show what I feel about him is not love.
> 
> 
> *BUT* it doesn't mean I'll feel this way about every guy I get in a relationship with.
> *I didn't have these thoughts with my ex. Actually, I was the one who would constantly fight for that relationship *, hoping it would last and never stopped giving him chances to improve his attitude towards me until I realized there was nothing I could do . Never for a second did I think about cheating on him or look at other options out there.
> 
> So next time, YOU be careful when you talk on behalf of other men and what they'd think about me.


Oh don't take offense girl, I wasn't judging you. Carry on and don't let this old fool bother you anymore.


----------



## RandomDude

> Ok, suppose my OSF and I get together.
> BUT, if a better guy shows up later, I would definitely dump my OSF, without a second thought. Why? Because the first things that come to my mind when I think about the OSF are:
> SEX, FWB, ADVENTURE and HOTNESS.
> If my OSF wasn't good looking I wouldn't even consider sharing beds with him or be touched by him. My "feelings" about him are too superficial.
> 
> So the relationship would be an empty one and and probably one of us (or both) would end up getting hurt. I already know the outcome so what's the point of the risk?


Even a shallow casual relationship can easily end up with emotional attachment, even if you didn't want to get involved emotionally in him in the first place. Trust me on this LG, there were guidelines over 8 years ago that I learnt to establish with each and every FWB to prevent emotional attachment, no after sex talk, nothing but sex, honesty, casual romance, plenty of space. 

I had to learn how to prevent the emotional attachment due to losing FWBs after they wanted more than physical affection. As for the risk of myself becoming emotionally attached - I also kept a ring, at least two or more FWBs at once, so I didn't get emotionally drawn to liking a "favorite", in addition to those guidelines as I stated above.

Sex can bring out emotions, and more so for those inexperienced. If it didn't, I never would have had to do all that crap in the past - and I'm a harda$$. Just keep that in mind, that's all - shallow attraction can still lead to something else.

Anyways both Jaquen and CM has made some seriously strong points and personally I can't argue with them nor agree wholeheartedly with either views as no one but YOU can tell whether he's a player with you or not. Personally I reckon you should walk as this doesn't seem to be worth the drama and risk of losing a friendship considering you're not that inclined on the prize.

You have to make your decision


----------



## jaquen

lovelygirl said:


> I'm repeating myself. Just because you can't be lovers with someone doesn't mean you can't be friends. he's good as a friend but nothing more.


I'm sorry, but I don't even keep close same sex friends that I can describe with the plethora of negatives you are launching at this man.

That's why it seems deeper than you're admitting to. You're hyper negative about this man, claim to have no deep feelings, yet are up all night crying about your relationship, and swear that his friendship is sooo important in your life that it warrants all this emotional turmoil.

Can you at all, on any level, gather that this all seems odd on your part?

Can you explain why this man is important to your life, even as a friend?


----------



## lovelygirl

RandomDude said:


> Even a shallow casual relationship can easily end up with emotional attachment, even if you didn't want to get involved emotionally in him in the first place.


You're right. There could happen something good even from relationships which first start out as just sexual and nothing more.


But it's what Jaquen said in one of his posts. 
I'm afraid to let myself go, because if I follow my head I'd say he's not the right guy to be in a relationship with. At least not for now.
Maybe he'll change later ...just like CM changed after he met his wife. 




Jaquen said:


> Can you at all, on any level, gather that this all seems odd on your part?
> 
> Can you explain why this man is important to your life, even as a friend?


Yes, it sounds odd to me to that no matter how confusing this sounds I have a hard time letting go of him. 

He is important for several reasons:
- He's a good friend - we talk a lot, he has no problem opening up to me about his daily life and what he's been through. I like it that he trusts me enough to even confess some of his deepest secrets that he says no one other than me knows about. 

- We share common interests - we both like to travel a lot and we go places several times a year (either two of us or in a group)

-He's one of the few friends who calls me daily and checks up how I'm doing. So, in a way he cares about me and I like it about him. He makes me feel really good and I end up thinking he's a good friend to have. 

And to make it clear, earlier in my post where you said I was all negative about him - I was referring to him as a LOVER. 
In a way, I feel sorry for the girls who have dated him. That's why I said that as a lover he's not irreplaceable and if someone else better came along, I THINK I can replace him if he doesn't change from what he's now.


----------



## RandomDude

> But it's what Jaquen said in one of his posts.
> I'm afraid to let myself go, because if I follow my head I'd say he's not the right guy to be in a relationship with. At least not for now.
> Maybe he'll change later ...just like CM changed after he met his wife.


Reformation from playboy to ex-playboy can happen in a heartbeat. Love has a way of making a man do some seriously crazy sh-t, but that's if the woman in question knows how to tame him properly 

For me, I simply didn't know what true love was, and even though I told myself a thousand times that I was incapable of it let alone deserve it - it happened to me 7 years ago. It sparked changes, but it wasn't really a reformation so to speak; It was more like finding out deep down inside that true love was actually what I've wanted all along, had my mind blown away so to speak.

So she put down her terms, was she worth risking myself for? At that time; Yes. I no longer wanted the game, I wanted her.



> Yes, it sounds odd to me to that no matter how confusing this sounds I have a hard time letting go of him.
> 
> He is important for several reasons:
> - He's a good friend - we talk a lot, he has no problem opening up to me about his daily life and what he's been through. I like it that he trusts me enough to even confess some of his deepest secrets that he says no one other than me knows about.
> 
> - We share common interests - we both like to travel a lot and we go places several times a year (either two of us or in a group)
> 
> -He's one of the few friends who calls me daily and checks up how I'm doing. So, in a way he cares about me and I like it about him. He makes me feel really good and I end up thinking he's a good friend to have.
> 
> And to make it clear, earlier in my post where you said I was all negative about him - I was referring to him as a LOVER.
> In a way, I feel sorry for the girls who have dated him. That's why I said that as a lover he's not irreplaceable and if someone else better came along, I THINK I can replace him if he doesn't change from what he's now.


Well, now you've put a song stuck in me head:
John Paul Young - Love Is In The Air (1978) - YouTube
   
I'm kidding lol! Couldn't resist... lol

Ne ways you mentioned before you would have welcomed his kiss, and now with you staying up all night thinking about him, looks like he's already crossed the friend-zone. Seems like the only thing holding you back right now is his habits with other women...

Heh we're going in circles aren't we? :scratchhead:
I really have no idea what you're intending, I'm getting more confused by the minute actually! Heh


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## jaquen

lovelygirl said:


> Yes, it sounds odd to me to that no matter how confusing this sounds I have a hard time letting go of him.
> 
> He is important for several reasons:
> - He's a good friend - we talk a lot, he has no problem opening up to me about his daily life and what he's been through. I like it that he trusts me enough to even confess some of his deepest secrets that he says no one other than me knows about.
> 
> - We share common interests - we both like to travel a lot and we go places several times a year (either two of us or in a group)
> 
> -He's one of the few friends who calls me daily and checks up how I'm doing. So, in a way he cares about me and I like it about him. He makes me feel really good and I end up thinking he's a good friend to have.


You sleep in the same bed. Check.
He's kissed and caressed you. Check.
You talk a lot. Check.
He tells you his deepest thoughts and feelings. Check.
You have a lot in common. Check.
You travel together, alone. Check.
You talk daily. Check.
He cares about you, and you like that he does. Check.
He makes you "feel really good". Check.

You want to know why you're up at night, crying? Why you're confused? Because you and your "friend" are already in a relationship, and neither of you are admitting it. You just don't have sex, and are allowed to see other people.

It's a mutually beneficial situation. He gets all the perks of having a great girlfriend, without the commitment. You get all the perks of having a boyfriend, without having to turn in your v-card.

Win-win.


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## lovelygirl

RandomDude said:


> Reformation from playboy to ex-playboy can happen in a heartbeat. Love has a way of making a man do some seriously crazy sh-t, but that's if the woman in question knows how to tame him properly


I have to admit you're right. Now that I recall, I've seen it happen many times in my friends' boyfriends.
The thing is that, the past relationship was like hell for me so I don't want to go down the same road again.



> So she put down her terms, was she worth risking myself for? At that time; Yes. I no longer wanted the game, I wanted her.


sweet! 
too bad she's a soon-to-be-ex. I have to admit, when I read your threads, most of the time, the reactions of your wife in many situations would make me get on my nerves lol. 




> Well, now you've put a song stuck in me head:
> John Paul Young - Love Is In The Air (1978) - YouTube
> 
> I'm kidding lol! Couldn't resist... lol


:rofl:





> Ne ways you mentioned before you would have welcomed his kiss, and now with you staying up all night thinking about him, looks like he's already crossed the friend-zone. Seems like the only thing holding you back right now is his habits with other women...


You guys are putting too much importance on the night I stayed up lol. He has crossed the friend-zone eversince I started having sexual thoughts about him. So that's not news to anyone lol.


He called me earlier today saying "hey, are you up for some movie? The one we were supposed to watch that night? " 
[If you remember we didn't watch the movie because we had the talk].

So yeah, later I'm heading out for the "movie". Let's see what happens. But I'm not in the mood to argue or anything like that. If we'll be able to see the movie that's good.


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## lovelygirl

jaquen said:


> You sleep in the same bed. Check.
> He's kissed and caressed you. Check.
> You talk a lot. Check.
> He tells you his deepest thoughts and feelings. Check.
> You have a lot in common. Check.
> You travel together, alone. Check.
> You talk daily. Check.
> He cares about you, and you like that he does. Check.
> He makes you "feel really good". Check.
> 
> You want to know why you're up at night, crying? Why you're confused? Because you and your "friend" are already in a relationship, and neither of you are admitting it. You just don't have sex, and are allowed to see other people.
> 
> It's a mutually beneficial situation. He gets all the perks of having a great girlfriend, without the commitment. You get all the perks of having a boyfriend, without having to turn in your v-card.
> 
> Win-win.


I like how you put it lol. 
I wish I had half of the optimism you have.


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## theroad

No man will get into a bed and put his hands all over a woman that he is not attracted to her.

This guy wants to nail the OP in the worse way.

As Steve Urkel would say to and about Laura: I'm wearin' you down baby.

This guy has no game with the ladies and the only one he can

get into bet without waving a fist full of $50's is you. Or 

someone that the used her face to mold the original ugly stick, 

has to use a cattle scale, when she say's moo moo she not 

speaking Hawaiian but refering to the custom dresses she has

made for her by the famous designer Omar The Tent Maker,

he has not even gotten any where with the Lee sisters, Beast,

Ghast, and Ug. Even the sister's cousin Home won't give him 

the time of day.


The Feminazi's here will get their boy shorts in knots when they hear that there is no reason to have opposite sex friends.

For men just want one thing.

If men are not after you then they don't find you attractive.


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## Jellybeans

lovelygirl said:


> But just like CM said, *this guy is just a player. What's the point of being in a relationship with a player?*
> It's not the end of the world if I don't get in a relationship with him.
> *There are plenty of more mature, confident and family-oriented guys out there who want to be in a normal relationship*. It doesn't mean the relationship with such guys will end up in marriage but *still I would choose them over my OSF.*
> 
> Ok, suppose my OSF and I get together.
> BUT, *if a better guy shows up later, I would definitely dump my OSF, without a second thought.*


Based on what you posted, I do not understand what all your confusion is about this entire situation.

You've said yourself you dont want to be in a relationship with him. So why lead him on by curling up in bed with him and whatnot? Why pretend/act like lovers do? Why not just be honest with eachother about what you both want and do not want? 

Tell him "We're friends and that's it and it can't be more because I don't see us 'like that.'"

I don't get why there is so much back and forth over this. :scratchhead: Those comments you made seem pretty matter-of-fact and if your friend read them I am sure he'd get a clue and bow out.


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## Jellybeans

jaquen said:


> I'm sorry, but I don't even keep close same sex friends that I can describe with the plethora of negatives you are launching at this man.


Agreed. 



theroad said:


> No man will get into a bed and put his hands all over a woman that he is not attracted to her.


The truth. (And I am a woman).



theroad said:


> As Steve Urkel would say to and about Laura: I'm wearin' you down baby.


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## sweaty teddy

agree that if neither of you find the one in say like 10yr then you can be eachothers fall back plan.

thats what it sounds like to me! so just come out and say it


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## RandomDude

> too bad she's a soon-to-be-ex. I have to admit, when I read your threads, most of the time, the reactions of your wife in many situations would make me get on my nerves lol.


Heh well, falling in love is one thing

Staying in love, growing together, having a healthy marriage - it's a whole different challenge



> The thing is that, the past relationship was like hell for me so I don't want to go down the same road again.


So I'm guessing you want a safe one next round eh?
Well, to be honest, I don't know how much safer you could be with someone else, when there's someone right there for you maybe, someone you've known and grew to trust over the last 7 years 

Unless of course he really friend-zoned you, but that is for you to decide if it's true  Good luck!


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## Maricha75

sweaty teddy said:


> agree that if neither of you find the one in say like 10yr then you can be eachothers fall back plan.
> 
> thats what it sounds like to me! so just come out and say it


Ohh Ohh!!! LOVED that movie! :rofl:


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## jaquen

sweaty teddy said:


> agree that if neither of you find the one in say like 10yr then you can be eachothers fall back plan.
> 
> thats what it sounds like to me! so just come out and say it


My wife and I made a pact back in high school, years before we go together, that if we were both single by 40 we'd just pack it in and get married.

Oops.


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