# Husband wants to move in.



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Hi everyone,

I haven't posted in a couple of weeks but I'm very stressed out.

Background: Husband and I have been separated 10 months. He refused to be "apart" from his mom and older brother, and would not live alone with me in an apartment, and would scream and threaten me and tried to kick me out, so I left him. Tried to reconcile but he kept refusing to live apart from them.

I gave my husband separation papers to sign a few days ago. He showed up at my doorstep with MY UNCLE, who tried to get us to "make up". Apparently, my husband didn't want to divorce me and wanted me to move out of my condo and find a place to live with his mom. At the end of the evening, I told my husband directly that I want a divorce from you because you have not changed and we want different things. When they left, I felt empty and sad.

Next day, I told him that I no longer love him because I refuse to love someone who does not love me back. It was the first time since we dated, that I told him I do not love him.

He asked to see me the day after, and said he would move in with me. He said he'll live with me until February, and that in February when my lease expires, we should get a house and his mom will live with us. His sister (whom I absolutely despise) would live with his older brother. He will pay their rent and also pay 50% of all my expenses. I cried and told him I'm afraid - afraid of letting him back in to my life because we will likely repeat old patterns. Afraid of his family who interfered in our marriage.

My husband is in denial - he says everything is better, we have made up, and his family will not interfere. I told him it's easy to burn a house down in one night, but it takes much longer than one night to rebuild it. 

I am so uncomfortable. I don't want to live with his mom and I don't want him to pay their bills! (His mom and sister will live alone in an apartment until February, and my husband will pay their rent.) His sister works and can fully pay her rent...but my husband feels it's his responsibility to take care of his mother no matter what. He says our daughter won't be deprived...I said our daughter is not deprived even now because I have a job. The point is not deprivation, it's fairness. They are taking advantage of you and me and our daughter and you are letting them!

My parents are asking me to give him another chance. My dad has always been my rock through this process and never once advised me to take him back, he always advised me to stand my ground and stand up for myself. But he says that my husband has come to me, and that in some respects I've won the battle, and I should compromise a little as well. For my husband, not living with his mom is a huge deal and he's willing to be away from her.

I feel so hurt that my husband cares about his mom and siblings more than he cares about me and our daughter. I know I will never be his priority. If we don't get divorced, that is just something I will need to accept.

I am worried that if he moves in, I will fight with him over money and feel resentment. But I also feel like God opened a door for us and it's wrong to close this door without at least trying.

Should I let him move in for a few months and see how it goes?
Should I tell him, NO, go live with your mom and sister but you can visit me and pay half my rent and maybe if I trust you enough, then you can move in?
Telling him "No, I want a divorce" is not an option for me right now. I don't have the heart to do it. I won't give up my marriage without trying and trying.

I am not foolish enough to think he's changed. But I certainly have changed - I am not the submissive wife I used to be. Maybe that is what will make a difference this time?

I forgot to mention - I told him that in February I might not be comfortable enough to make any change to my living situation and will not promise to get a house with him and live with his mom. It might take longer. He said OK it's not an issue. I know when the time comes, I will probably just tell him to do whatever he wants - go live with them, buy a house with them, etc. because I'm not going anywhere right now. And I'll buy my own house whenever I feel is the right time, on my own terms and nobody else's. And we'll live that way...as in he has his house, and I have mine, but we see each other and stay married because we can't let go of each other. This is not the example I wanted to set for my daughter but divorcing her dad when he's come to me also seems so wrong!


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Whatever you do, stand your ground on MIL not living w/ you.

TRUST ME.


----------



## Kitt (Jun 3, 2015)

I think you are on the right path....life is too short to live it second best to your spouse.Your dad means well, but you need to divorce.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> I haven't posted in a couple of weeks but I'm very stressed out.
> 
> ...


I would not let him move in with you. I find his compromise odd to say the least. The living situation was intolerable for you to begin with so telling you that a few months from now you will be right back into a situation you hate is a good idea? 

He isn't offering any solution to the real problem here and that he will not leave his family and grow up.


----------



## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

Agreed, don't get sucked in again!!!


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Nothing's really changed. He still wants his mom living with him. If you are going to remain married to him you need to accept that she will always be first for him. You can let him move in and postpone this until next February or whenever but he's not going to change his thinking. 

If you can't accept his terms then you should move on and not drag this out. Because there's more pain for you down the road if you don't make a clean cut.


----------



## sisters359 (Apr 9, 2009)

My initial reaction is: There is no future in moving backwards. Move forward with the separation and divorce, and limit contact with him to email exchanges that deal exclusively with child/custody arrangements. 

You have taken such a big step, and yet until you are completely, legally, mentally free of the concept of the two of you together, you will be at risk--and there is nothing to be gained. You lived that life, and it made you miserable. Nothing will change--nothing about him or them has changed. 

On the other hand, our opinions are based on our life experiences, and only you can judge what will be best for you. I think it is really hard to let go, given that you were submissive (by your own account) and you truly loved him. If you feel you need to try one more time, no one will fault you. Certainly, if you left a second time, then you would have no doubts. 

I would not have doubts now if I were you--I think you have every right to protect yourself and your daughter from his crazy, dysfunctional family. But I'm not you, and you need to do what you feel will be best. Good luck.


----------



## Jane139 (Jan 6, 2015)

Do you want to live with mother forever? And most likely, his sister and brother too, eventually? Because that is what will happen, all over again. It is up to you. Loving him may not be enough to compensate for all of his baggage. We all have to decide what baggage we can handle, and what is a deal breaker. A nice, non-interfering mother-in-law in a guest cottage might be okay with me while a clinging mommy in the same house would be a "no way". And siblings would be a definite "no".


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

I don't see that anything has changed, Orange. It appears that he's offered to placate you for a few months and then clearly expects to go back to the same situation that was intolerable. Write out only the time line of living situations from the time you separated through his February offer and you are right back to square one. Yuck. I don't see this as God opening a door. I see this as his Mom pushing him back into a pigeon hole.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Thank you everyone for your advice, I truly appreciate it!

I do not want to live with his mother in February, or ever. That much is very clear to me. Letting her back in is letting his family back in (the siblings will follow wherever she is) and that means letting misery back in to my life. I will not be taking that step.

My hope is that during the next several months, my husband will change. He will see that it's best for his wife and mom to live separately. He will "detach" a little bit from them - just by having to live apart from them. His habits might change bit by bit. Any small little bit of progress is still progress. I've heard accounts from women who had to live with their in laws, who say that once their husbands moved out with them, they changed for the better. And even started to see the dysfunction in their families...because they were no longer in that dysfunctional environment all of the time.

I think it is worth trying. I'm not betting on it...I highly doubt that come February he will say OK my mom doesn't have to live with us. But that's totally fine, because in that case, he can go to them. I won't be going anywhere. And we will split. And honestly, he might surprise me and agree on my terms. I truly believed he would sign the separation papers and go forward with the divorce because he'd NEVER EVER consider being apart from his mother...but he has surprised me, he has decided to come here. 

The next several months are to see if we can even get along again. Yes I can understand that to some, it might seem like I am "dragging out the pain and inevitable divorce", but people can change. It's possible. And for many reasons, I will give it a chance.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Whatever you do, stand your ground on MIL not living w/ you.
> 
> TRUST ME.


No kidding!

To her son she's like this 0 and when he's not looking, she's like this >


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

honcho said:


> I would not let him move in with you. I find his compromise odd to say the least. The living situation was intolerable for you to begin with so telling you that a few months from now you will be right back into a situation you hate is a good idea?
> 
> He isn't offering any solution to the real problem here and that he will not leave his family and grow up.


We spoke last night and I re-set his expectations.

I told him the ONLY thing I am agreeing to, is for you to move in with me and we try to build a better marriage. We will try to rebuild the trust that is broken, and see where it takes us. Nothing else. He's accepted that.

He wanted me to move out in February, and go house shopping with his family. I said no to all of those. The mom-issue, I didn't flat out say "no" to, I just said I might not be ready. But he doesn't need to know that I have absolutely no intention of moving in with her.

Dude...if his mom lives with me, her daughter will visit every freaking day. And the two of them will make my life a living hell like it used to be. No! No no no no no.


----------



## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Just curious... what nationality and culture are the two of you?


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> We spoke last night and I re-set his expectations.
> 
> I told him the ONLY thing I am agreeing to, is for you to move in with me and we try to build a better marriage. We will try to rebuild the trust that is broken, and see where it takes us. Nothing else. He's accepted that.
> 
> ...


You need to be firm and clearly state your position on the mom situation. He needs to know that now, its not a wait and see thing. Its hard but you should do that otherwise your just going to go thru this again in a few months.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

If I were in your situation, I would not do it. First of all, he has not done any work on himself. He will still have the same behaviors and habits that drove you away in the first place. He is currently trying to bargain with you.

Second, he, himself, and his mother will still create a toxic environment for your daughter to grow up in. Look at what his mother did to him. Environment plays a major part in forming the person that we are today.

Third, I would not trust a word from him. As I mention the bargaining, it will only last until he gets a fix of love and I mention previously, love is an addiction, and once he gets his fix, his behavior will revert.

A majority of relationships where one couple promises to change and to only end up in failure is because they got their love fix, they feel safe again, and their old selves will resurface gradually. He is highly motivated at the moment, but once you move back with him, you will get sucked back into the drama. Your not only dealing with your husband, but his mother, sister, and the rest of his family.

He will have the elements in his life to keep that reinforcement of those qualities in place.

It sounds like you are keeping to much in contact with him, getting that love fix, keeping you stuck. You have your own issues to work on as well. Logically, you know that your husband will create a toxic environment himself due to his dysfunction, but you know that going back to him is detrimental for you and your daughter.

I personally would not listen to the advice that you should give him another chance as of now. Going back into the same situation, and this time it may be harder to leave or untangle yourself again. You will go through this emotional mess again, not to mention your daughter as well. More of your life will be bonded to him, and you may end up running back to your parents again. I am sure they mean well,but being with him will only make you more addicted to the drama. You can learn or adapt to operate in an unstable environment, and when stability occurs, you will have trouble adapting again.


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

honcho said:


> You need to be firm and clearly state your position on the mom situation. He needs to know that now, its not a wait and see thing. Its hard but you should do that otherwise your just going to go thru this again in a few months.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with this. It's like when the kid asks for permission for something and the parent says "we'll see..." That is all the opening they need, they know they have won and won't give up until the parent gives in.

It sounds like right now you are hoping he'll adjust to life without his mom and he is hoping you will come around. You both still have your original agendas.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with you not wanting your MIL to live with you. You are being strong on other things. I would be clear on this now too. *Because even if he gives in ultimately, I believe the very fact that he would push for his mom to live with you when he knows you don't want that shows that you are not his top priority and that knowledge will be a cancer in your relationship even if you get the living arrangement you want*. And he will probably never stop going behind your back to do for his mom and sister.


----------



## Dread Pirate Roberts (May 22, 2012)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Next day, I told him that I no longer love him because I refuse to love someone who does not love me back. It was the first time since we dated, that I told him I do not love him.


If this is really how you feel, then you need to divorce



Orange_Pekoe said:


> My parents are asking me to give him another chance. My dad has always been my rock through this process and never once advised me to take him back, he always advised me to stand my ground and stand up for myself. But he says that my husband has come to me, and that in some respects I've won the battle, and I should compromise a little as well. For my husband, not living with his mom is a huge deal and he's willing to be away from her.


You didn't win any battle, it's just postponing the defeat a few months, if you take him back. How can you compromise here? You don't want to live with your MIL, and he does. There really isn't any give and take there.

DPR


----------



## Jane139 (Jan 6, 2015)

You should be honest and clear about his mother now. Otherwise she will be stashed elsewhere, waiting in the wings for the "right" time to move in. If you let him back without telling him she can absolutely not live with you, now or ever, you will end up right back where you were before. You will have gained nothing.


----------



## TakingSteps (May 18, 2015)

I agree with the sentiments given by others that you need to make it clear, in a calm way, that living with his mother simply is not the answer. If you really are willing to give him another chance, I would definitely make it known that there is clear criteria to it, which includes proving to you that he will not only agree to not living with his mother, but also will not make plans to do so in the future, either. Let it be known that you simply want to be your own couple, with no others - including his family - living with you. That way you can truly grow up as a couple.

Personally, I feel the guy needs to take on counselling to figure out his dependence on living with his family (or vice versa). I would make that a criteria also.

If he is that keen on being with you, he should be willing to do what it takes to be with you.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Everyone is saying the same thing here: that I should not take him back and should not allow his mom to live with me.

I do not want his mom to live with me. And I will tell him that. Nobody can force me to move out and live with her, or for her to come and live with me. If he tries, I will help him pack up and move his things to her house and live there. And I will give him the divorce papers again. 

I do not live with anyone right now. He is moving in to my home. I have the upper hand. I am not a victim in his house anymore...to be ganged up on by his family. I am not that person any more. If he even tries to turn me in to that person, a screaming rage will emerge from the very depths of my soul, soar out and lash at him. I know it and he knows it.

I sincerely doubt his sister and mother will WANT to move out of their apartment and live with me. If they do - they're really screwed up. Why would they want to go from a peaceful environment to misery again? 

I am concerned that my daughter will be brainwashed by her dad's family and he will teach her his dysfunction. But I will be constantly battling it. She's been super excited the past 2 days seeing us together.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Mr.Fisty said:


> If I were in your situation, I would not do it. First of all, he has not done any work on himself. He will still have the same behaviors and habits that drove you away in the first place. He is currently trying to bargain with you.
> 
> Second, he, himself, and his mother will still create a toxic environment for your daughter to grow up in. Look at what his mother did to him. Environment plays a major part in forming the person that we are today.
> 
> ...


I told him that I will not be around his family, and I don't want them interfering any more. As it is, I have no plans to get together with them or see them at all, unless his mom is in the hospital and I have to visit her. I'm not concerned about his family invading my personal/emotional space right now.

I'm concerned - no, 100% certain that THEY WILL do it if I ever move from my condo to a place where his mom can live with us. And so I won't do that and nobody will force me to.

I'm going to stop stressing. I'm going to give him this chance he does not deserve. I'm going to make it so difficult to walk away from me and our daughter in February, because I will show him that "love fix" and make him addicted to US...if he chooses to be with his mother instead of us, it will destroy him emotionally and cause him intense suffering. I won't be the only one in pain!

I will not budge on the mom thing. THANK YOU to all the people who keep stressing that. She's toxic because she will gather all her toxic kids around her. I will be miserable with her in my life.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Jane139 said:


> You should be honest and clear about his mother now. Otherwise she will be stashed elsewhere, waiting in the wings for the "right" time to move in. If you let him back without telling him she can absolutely not live with you, now or ever, you will end up right back where you were before. You will have gained nothing.


Excuse my language, but I need to grow some balls and tell him this straight-up.

Courage, courage.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Just curious... what nationality and culture are the two of you?


Probably one of the most backwards cultures on the planet. 

But he grew up here since he was 4 years old, just like me. So the culture thing should not have been a factor. It's not culture at play here - it's his Mom's brainwashing attempts that have succeeded.


----------



## Jane139 (Jan 6, 2015)

So you are going to be a martyr? Giving him a chance he does not deserve?
Well...best of luck. But I will be shocked if it works out longterm.


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Who is paying for his mom and sister's apartment? If it is the two of you, that could also become a huge source of resentment over time as money that could go into retirement savings every month is spent to support two his family.

You know the situation and what you can and can not tolerate best, and how bad you want to be with your husband. I am just concerned for you because it sounds like some of this may be you doing it because other people talked you into it more than that your heart really wants this. I may be projecting my weaknesses onto you but I was in a relationship with red flags that I *almost* got out of but let myself be talked back into. Now 20 years later I do love my husband but I can't stop thinking that I could have loved someone else who was a much better fit for me also, and I could be at a much better place in life right now if I had not been so weak and fearful.

In my case he had financial problems and I ended up supporting him and didn't have the heart to turn him out onto the streets. I know most women are stronger than I was so maybe that is just me. But if your husband is in your house and your daughter is so happy to have him there, and you change your mind...is it really going to be that simple to be the bad guy who made daddy leave?

It sounds like you have a deadline for change. That is good.

Best of luck whatever you ultimately decide.


----------



## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Everyone is saying the same thing here: that I should not take him back and should not allow his mom to live with me.
> 
> I do not want his mom to live with me. And I will tell him that. Nobody can force me to move out and live with her, or for her to come and live with me. If he tries, I will help him pack up and move his things to her house and live there. And I will give him the divorce papers again.
> 
> ...


OP, you authored another thread about a 'codependent husband.'

I refrained from commenting in that thread, because I couldn't come up with a polite way to suggest that maybe your husband wasn't the codependent partner in the marriage.

You evidently don't realize this, but it's real f*cked up for a grown man, married, to want to live with his mommy. It's real f*cked up that mommy wants him to.

I have some bad news for you, lady.

You are making excuses to prolong the agony, here. You are NOT making progress.

Letting him move into your condo accomplishes not ONE DAMN THING positive. It just lets him worm his way back into your life, and recreate all the screwed up things that you are familiar with.

Mommy will be coming over. A lot. Until she's there all the time, and, well, returning you to what is 'normal' for you.

But let's see. You have a plan. And it is, uh.....

'let forth a screaming rage from the depths of your soul.'

So your response to the inevitable drama and bull$hit will be to reply with drama and bull$hit.

Do you see where this might be poorly thought out on your part?

And this assumes that, come time for you to let forth the screaming rage, that you aren't too scared, too tired, too afraid, or too whatever to actually do it, rather than meekly accept whatever flavor of crap your husband is feeding you right then.


'Hey! I, Orange Pekoe, am afraid my daughter will be brainwashed and screwed up by my husband and his family. I intend to battle it constantly! That's why I'm letting my husband back into my life, so I can constantly fight him over my daughter's mental health and well being.'


May I humbly suggest that you get some therapy to understand why you enjoy playing your part in this screwed up thing of a marriage you are in?

If you got some help, maybe you would start making better choices regarding your health and happiness, and that of your daughter.

Everybody is telling you the same thing because everybody is reaching the same conclusion from reading your posts.

Letting your husband back into your life is a really bad idea for you.

You ask for advice, ignore it, and justify doing what you really want, which is to have drama and strife in your life. If I were you, I'd start making choices that lead to happiness instead of sadness and misery.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Orange, please don't take this giant step backwards and undo all of your progress.

Sure, you can tell him you have no intentions of ever living with his mother again, but as soon as he moves in with you, there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop her from coming over every day to "visit" her son, parking her a$$ all day in your hard-won peaceful little space (in other words, essentially living there). After all it will be his home too and he will invite the wacko family members over to "visit" more and more.

I think you should seriously reconsider this plan which is flawed.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

I did not want to read these criticisms BUT I am glad that I did. I need to hear it. And I'm very grateful to have the objective feedback. I've had feedback during my entire separation from TAM members and it has never steered me in the wrong direction. I had always followed the advice and it kept me strong.

It is true, that perhaps I am the codependant one. 

I love him and I want to save my marriage, but without his family involved. Living together with his mother is off the table and I will have that honest but difficult conversation with him. Knowing that the result might be a divorce. I will never be living with them, never allow them to put me in a situation where they could ever again make me feel like a 2nd class citizen in my own home.


----------



## Jane139 (Jan 6, 2015)

I just don't see what your wish for actually ever happening.
I wish lots of things about my marriage but that doesn't mean they did or ever will happen.
Your husband will not outgrow his mommy issue. And when she is gone, sis will be there to take her place. He is a package deal.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Jane139 said:


> I just don't see what your wish for actually ever happening.
> I wish lots of things about my marriage but that doesn't mean they did or ever will happen.
> Your husband will not outgrow his mommy issue. And when she is gone, sis will be there to take her place. He is a package deal.


He might, and I am willing to give him the chance. I married him for God's sake, we have a child together, I will not shut the door in his face and say "NO".

But within limits!

His mom or anybody else living with me is off the table. I "wish" for something - give it my all - and if it doesn't happen, I move on.


----------



## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> He might, and I am willing to give him the chance. I married him for God's sake, we have a child together, I will not shut the door in his face and say "NO".
> 
> But within limits!
> 
> His mom or anybody else living with me is off the table. I "wish" for something - give it my all - and if it doesn't happen, I move on.


Oh honey. You already HAVE given it your all. 

Your daughter is probably more traumatized by all the back and forth and uncertainty than she ever will be by having divorced parents. I get that it's not what you want for her. But isn't it better she sees women as strong and independent and making well thought out decisions like you did when you decided to make a home for yourself and for her? 

Other folks have pointed out that if you backslide and allow him to move in with you, his family will likely start camping out in yr house, "visiting" and ganging up on you again. And there will be nothing you can do to stop it as he will be living with you and be entitled to have his family visit. You say you won't allow them to move in, but isn't them visiting just as bad? Why subject yourself to more trauma? Why let your daughter see you be put down and ganged up on? You seem like you care about her a lot and I know you don't act rashly. I bet you're a good mother. Follow that instinct now.

Is having 2 parents together REALLY worth all of this angst for a little kid? Or for you?


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

If he moves in with you, will that be the first time in his life that he hasn't lived with family?


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

I don't share your optimism that a "love fix" will somehow morph his addictions to you and your family.

I will say that before my divorce I too, believed that if I was a wonderful super-wife, all my ex's issues would be solved. It was physically and emotionally exhausting, and it failed. Nothing was fixed. Because what I didn't accept at that time was that nothing I did would change the core of a man who didn't want to change or get help. I drew my line in the sand concerning the behavior I was willing to put up with multiple times until our situation became absolutely ridiculous, even to me. I never told him that I ever had a boundary, and that was entirely on me. I was utterly worthless at enforcing my imaginary boundary, and that was on me, too.

The best you can do is formulate the boundaries you deserve, and it sounds like you are trying to do that. Not living with his family is a wonderful boundary. But what about his supporting them? Does that factor into your boundary? How about them coming over? or his going there? Will there be limits? What about time his family wants with your daughter? If you are concerned about their influence on her are you willing to establish a boundary for the amount of time she spends with his family? If one of your boundaries is violated what are the repercussions? Have you spelled that out to your H?

Boundaries are fabulous so long as they are properly communicated to the parties involved and properly maintained by you. It is not easy.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

soccermom2three said:


> If he moves in with you, will that be the first time in his life that he hasn't lived with family?


Yes!


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

joannacroc said:


> Oh honey. You already HAVE given it your all.
> 
> Your daughter is probably more traumatized by all the back and forth and uncertainty than she ever will be by having divorced parents. I get that it's not what you want for her. But isn't it better she sees women as strong and independent and making well thought out decisions like you did when you decided to make a home for yourself and for her?
> 
> ...


But that's the thing, they will not be visiting. There is no room in my condo to have his mother over for the night. We are not on speaking terms - they will not be visiting me here at all. 

You are right, I do want her to see me as strong and independant. And that's what I've done so far, and I have no plans to move out of my condo and in with his mom. So I have no plans to forfeit my independance and strength.


----------



## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Yes!


I guess I'm going to say the opposite of everyone else. If he moves in with you, maybe he will see how peaceful, calm and drama free his life can be without having his mom and sister around all the time. It may wake him up.

You would have to set firm boundaries, (like they are not allowed visit your home), then you have to NOT back down.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Pluto2 said:


> I don't share your optimism that a "love fix" will somehow morph his addictions to you and your family.
> 
> I will say that before my divorce I too, believed that if I was a wonderful super-wife, all my ex's issues would be solved. It was physically and emotionally exhausting, and it failed. Nothing was fixed. Because what I didn't accept at that time was that nothing I did would change the core of a man who didn't want to change or get help. I drew my line in the sand concerning the behavior I was willing to put up with multiple times until our situation became absolutely ridiculous, even to me. I never told him that I ever had a boundary, and that was entirely on me. I was utterly worthless at enforcing my imaginary boundary, and that was on me, too.
> 
> ...


Thank you. This is very important.
I have communicated some boundaries, but not all of them. And that is because I have had only a few days to think about all the boundaries I want to set and they have been forming in my head. When I know them all, I will communicate them to him.

When we were separated, my daughter would be over at his house with his family every weekend, over night. Now, there is no reason for that. He can see her whenever he wants...he can take her there for a morning or afternoon. But no overnight visits. This limits her time with them. If he doesn't like this "limit", I will tell him that her staying there over night means I am alone in my apartment.

Guys...I am not sure I want him to permanently move in. There is some hope but many warning lights and caution signals as well. For the last two days, he's simply been a "visitor"...his stuff is not in my apartment. He has no key. He's on his best behaviour and I want to see if I am even remotely happy having him back.

I am thinking about the future and I want to set the family limit. The financial part, I'm not happy about - but I have to decide if I am willing to let the financial part go, in order to keep my husband. Or if I should just say "this is not working out" and divorce him. I don't know yet. I need to give it a few weeks. I might end up regretting it but maybe I need to keep giving him chances in order to see that he'll keep failing us!


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

soccermom2three said:


> I guess I'm going to say the opposite of everyone else. If he moves in with you, maybe he will see how peaceful, calm and drama free his life can be without having his mom and sister around all the time. It may wake him up.
> 
> You would have to set firm boundaries, (like they are not allowed visit your home), then you have to NOT back down.


Exactly!

I have spoken to women who lived with their in laws and went through all the hell of it. And when their husbands finally moved out, their wives express how they changed. One woman told me her husband literally would cry and say he missed his mom...she'd kinda laugh and say, "Don't worry, I'll take you to your mommy, here's a tissue." He was like a baby...and over time he detached. Now they're much better together as a couple.

But he doesn't pay half of his parents' rent and his wife's relationship with their family is OK.

Oh God. I'm lost and confused and stressed out. Pulled in 2 directions and I'm going on a trip for 4 days with my parents and daughter tomorrow and wish I could enjoy the trip and not stress about the future.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

joannacroc said:


> Other folks have pointed out that if you backslide and allow him to move in with you, *his family will likely start camping out in yr house, "visiting" and ganging up on you again. And there will be nothing you can do to stop it as he will be living with you and be entitled to have his family visit. You say you won't allow them to move in, but isn't them visiting just as bad? Why subject yourself to more trauma?* Why let your daughter see you be put down and ganged up on? You seem like you care about her a lot and I know you don't act rashly. I bet you're a good mother. Follow that instinct now.
> 
> Is having 2 parents together REALLY worth all of this angst for a little kid? Or for you?


This will not happen if I stay in my condo. It will only happen if I move out and live with his mom.

My condo is like a mountain behind me, keeping me strong. It's my territory, my rules. I will not give it up to go in to his territory, or worse, his family's.


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> ... I will not shut the door in his face and say "NO".


I think that's exactly what you need to do.


----------



## breezycello (May 29, 2015)

Ultimately, only you can make the choice to do what is best for YOU! 

Try to enjoy your trip as best you can and not deal with it for now. When you get back, as you know, the issue will still be on the table. It is very, very hard to want the marriage to work when the other partner has shown no compromise. It does appear that your husband is trying to find a "happy medium", at least right now.

I do have a couple of questions, if you don't mind. I don't know your whole story so looking for a little background.
How long has you been married? How old is your daughter? Has he and/or you considered going through some counseling? 

I feel that your having to accept the financial terms will cause serious resentment in the long term. I understand his wanting to help his Mother; however, don't understand the sister situation as she appears to be able to support herself. I also feel that his family will always, always be in your world. There are serious flaws with that relationship between them. There may be some separation as they won't be in your house all of the time. But looking down the road, she will still influence him in a fashion that may not be positive toward you. 

My suggestion would be to continue talking to let it stir and not make a decision. I wouldn't make a decision until he and you have done counseling to help with determine the underlying reason for his inability to detach from them. A few sessions may be all that it takes for you to know if he is setting both of you up to be miserable or if there is room to heal. 

I am sure this is so hard. I am so sorry that it is not an easy, quick decision.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Some do need the constant failure to see the picture clearly. Since love wants to be reinforced, it tends to bring the feelings of hope along as well.

If you truly want a strong relationship, he needs to see a therapist. The things he is promising you right now is due to the need to get that love fix, and he may start resenting you for splitting him away from his other family.

There is a good chance that his family will talk slander about you since he will still have their influence when he visits them, and due to his attachment to his family, the reverse may happen where he runs back to his family promising them that he will never leave them again.

He needs therapy to work on himself. You are going against a lifetime of reinforcements and personal beliefs, and a very unhealthy bond he has for his mother. He takes momma's boy to another level.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

We are back from our 4 day trip. I had an absolutely wonderful time, enjoyed the mother-daughter time and my parents also loved it. We visited Mont Tremblant in Quebec, Canada...beautiful place. It was relaxing.

I realized that I can have a perfectly good time without my husband. In fact, if he had been there, I would not have had fun. I know it because the last time we visited that place, we spent the first day angry at each other and not talking!

So we got home late this evening, and I had a voicemail from my husband asking to call him. My daughter has her yearly cardiologist appointment (she has congenital heart disease) tomorrow and my husband said last week that he wanted to go. When I called him, he said that he probably would not make the appointment tomorrow because his mom's leg was hurting a lot, he had to take her to the hospital yesterday and they gave her an appointment the same morning as my daughter's appointment.

I told him right away: You don't have to go to our daughter's appointment, go to your mom's appointment. I will take care of our daughter's appointment. He said he'd try to make it to both and I said he doesn't need to do that. I didn't want to say anymore - but I've learned that stuffing my feelings inside causes resentment and it's better to express myself in a calm way. So I said to him: "You agreed to come to our daughter's appointment last week, you knew about it beforehand. Why doesn't your brother or sister take your mom to her appointment?" And he said, "Because I want to take her, I want to be the one to do it." 

I feel so sad for my daughter: she has a father who will never put her first. I realized I would never be first on this man's list, but our daughter...she deserves better. It hurts me. If his mother had an emergency, and there was nobody else to take her, I'd understand. But he has a fully capable brother and sister who claim to care about her just as much, and yet my husband chose to take his mother. He is choosing her over us yet again. It has always been like this and it will always be like this. 

He asked to speak to our daughter on the phone so I gave it to her, and after a few minutes, her aunt (my husband's sister) came on the line and started talking to her. I took the phone from my daughter and hung up. My mom gave me a disappointed look, like "Why did you do that, it isn't right"...and I said to her, these people have taken away my husband and my daughter's father...I don't want to hear her voice on the line. I hate her.

That's when I realized that I not only do not want to live with his family, I absolutely don't want anything to do with them. And I doubt he can live with that. I wasn't back from the trip for 10 minutes and already I was stressed...stress that could be avoided by not having this man as my husband. The important question is: WILL I HAVE LESS STRESS IF WE ARE DIVORCED? OR WILL IT BE THE SAME STRESS BUT OF A DIFFERENT KIND?

My parents mean well. I understand they want me to save my marriage and put a lot of emphasis on the fact that my husband came back to me. But what it comes down to is this: It feels like much too little, too late. 

I want to go to counselling to talk through my situation and my feelings with a professional who will help me to realize that I deserve better. I fear a future where I never find another man to love, or another man who loves me. I see couples around me and EVERYONE has problems...if I divorce my husband, and I somehow find another partner, what if he has a huge problem that I can't live with - like cheating, or gambling, or lying, or financial debts and problems? What if I end up regretting this divorce?


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Mr.Fisty said:


> He needs therapy to work on himself. You are going against a lifetime of reinforcements and personal beliefs, and a very unhealthy bond he has for his mother. He takes momma's boy to another level.


He will not go to therapy with me. Even when I insist.

I know that I will not be able to change him...not unless he wants to change himself. And he does not want to change himself.

I would not be surprised if his mother makes up (or exaggerates) the leg-pain thing, just to keep him with her longer. And I'm pretty sure that he has not even mentioned our daughter's cardiologist appointment to his family...because he wants to put them first without even asking his family members to consider how his child or wife feel.

I also have realized I can't brush aside the last 11 months he decided not to live with us, apart from his family. During those 11 months, he begged me to understand that he has a responsibility to his mom and brother. But he never once begged them to understand that he has a responsibility to his wife and child.

I think I can have a healthy and productive life without being married to him. But I fear disappointing my parents. Divorce is looked down upon in our culture. I just don't think it's fair that they spend the rest of their lives hearing me complain incessantly about my husband. 

My mom says that I should find a way to make it work...that nobody is perfect. And that I have to have patience and compromise. Should I compromise on this? My dad tells me to be positive and things will slowly get better. I know there are women (and men) out there who put up with a lot worse...should I put up with these two issues (never being his priority, and the financial issue of him paying for his mom/sister's rent and bills) because they pale in comparison to other problems?


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

breezycello said:


> Ultimately, only you can make the choice to do what is best for YOU!
> 
> Try to enjoy your trip as best you can and not deal with it for now. When you get back, as you know, the issue will still be on the table. It is very, very hard to want the marriage to work when the other partner has shown no compromise. It does appear that your husband is trying to find a "happy medium", at least right now.
> 
> ...


We were married 3 years, then separated - so thus far, we've been married 4 years in total.
Our daughter is will be turning 3 this November.
I have asked him many times to go to counselling with me, but he says we don't need it. I tell him he's in denial. The only counselling he agreed to attend, was "religious counselling" (he thought the religious counsellor would take his side). He stopped going when the religious counsellor advised him to get an apartment with me and take care of me and our daughter. 

Yes, his family will never be out of the picture. He cannot be apart from them, and I cannot have him without also accepting them. That's what it comes down to.

I am so sad. For three years, I kept telling him: Don't do this. Don't force us (me and my in laws) to live together. It will destroy everything...there will be no love, trust or respect left to protect. But he chose to blame me instead of address the root cause of the issue. And his mother, brother and sister reinforce his belief (it's their belief as well, after all)...that there is nothing wrong with them, and everything wrong with everybody else.

I think that what I need to do is take all the pressure off myself. No pressure of living together with him, no pressure of his family being around me, no pressure of disappointing my parents and making a decision that I might end up regretting in future. I feel like just taking a giant step back and saying: this is too much for me to handle right now, leave me alone please! Going to counselling on my own, getting my sh!t together, taking as long as I need to make the right decision. Maybe I should just take divorce off the table and stay separated until I know 100% what the best thing for me and my daughter is.


----------



## breezycello (May 29, 2015)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> We were married 3 years, then separated - so thus far, we've been married 4 years in total.
> Our daughter is will be turning 3 this November.
> I have asked him many times to go to counselling with me, but he says we don't need it. I tell him he's in denial. The only counselling he agreed to attend, was "religious counselling" (he thought the religious counsellor would take his side). He stopped going when the religious counsellor advised him to get an apartment with me and take care of me and our daughter.
> 
> ...


Hi Orange - I am so glad you had a wonderful trip and do realize that it most likely would not have been the same had he been with you. I agree that you should not be dealing with this stress right now. Sit back and hold on to the relief and fun you had while gone. It will help you. 

It is very sad that he would choose to attend his mother's appointment over his daughter, especially as your daughter is so young. She could use both of you there. But that may add additional stress as well because he probably would fuss for not being with his mom. Not sure that would be healthy for you.

I also have a husband that chose something over us for years, his work. Not quite the same, but that feeling of being 2nd never changes. He did it with both of our daughters, and they know it. They don't really hold it against him but did make excuses for him and I allowed that. Looking back, I would not have made those excuses. Be strong and stand for what you need and want for both you and your daughter. You want her to grow to be a strong, "independent" woman. His family does not support that. She will grow up with that if they move in or you stay a unit. 

By no means am I saying you should divorce, but think long term. Will anything change if he does not get counseling to help all of you through this. i don't believe so. Mine will not do counseling either, as he doesn't see that he has any issues that they can help with either. Denial for both of them. Sad for us...but you can be happy and healthy and continue to be a good mother. Stay focused.

And you do not have to do anything you are not ready for, ever!!! You can table whatever you need to. I believe it was Mr Fisty that said that waiting too long can be harmful in the long run, however. As we will burden ourselves with additional baggage that we will carry to the next relationship. You may not have the love and companionship that you have had with your husband but just think....it could be better!


----------



## Jane139 (Jan 6, 2015)

It is too bad your own parents are not more "on your side". Even if they "mean well" they are not helping at all. Sounds like if it was up to you alone, you would know what to do...carry on living alone with your daughter, either separated or moving toward a divorce. Your husband is not going to ever become the husband and father you want and need. Maybe (maybe) once his mother is gone, but even then, the siblings will be around, grabbing for their share of your husband and his instinct will be to respond to them over you and your needs. 

While it is true to some extent that we marry a family, not just a person, this situation is over the top. He is continuing to choose them over the family he helped create. 

As I said before, it all comes down to what you can put up with.


----------



## mupostori (May 20, 2012)

what is your religion ? 

I think you should stop beating about the bush and tell him straight up that you don't want to live with his mother.


----------



## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

I hope the fact that he wanted to take his mother to the doctor rather than attend your daughter's appointment was the wake-up call you really do need. Yes, he's not only going to always put you second but your daughter too (along with any future children). And your daughter (and any others) will know that. 

My guess is you come from a very conservative culture so everyone supports your marriage (and not your divorce) -- especially your parents. Your husband in reality has done nothing except agree to live with you for a few months before going back to living the way he always has (and expecting you to join him next year). You will just be postponing the day of reckoning if you let him move back in. Especially since you haven't told him you won't live with his mother next year. Right now, he thinks he's convinced you to his way of thinking. And your parents will pressure you even more once he's back. 

This is your life. You are the one who has to live it so you need to decide what's best for you. I know you want to make your marriage work and you would have a good shot at that if he would let go of his mother and brother and sister. But he won't. And you know it.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

I did it.
He came over this evening with a bag of clothes, expecting to stay overnight. We chatted for a bit and I said to him, "I expected you to be at our daughter's appointment because it was very important, but you decided to take your mom to her appointment instead. My heart breaks for our daughter because this shows that she is not your priority." He brushed it aside...he said, "It doesn't mean that I don't care about her." I said to him, "I know that you care about her, but unfortunately not as much as other people in your life. She's my priority, she's the first person I consider and ensure is taken care of." And he brushed it off again and told me to let it go.

I cooked dinner, we ate, and he wanted to go for a walk. That's when I sat him down and told him that I cannot live with his mother, not in 6 months, not ever. I explained to him that living with his mom means living with his family, and that I cannot go back to that living situation because the outcome will be the same: we will fight and argue and repeat history. I told him that obviously neither of us are ready for a divorce right now, and I know that he will choose to live with his mom, so the best thing to do is for him to live with her. He can see our daughter whenever he likes, and nothing on the separation agreement (that I wanted him to sign last week) has changed, and that we will need to sit down and sign those papers. But this part-time husband/part-time wife business is eating me up and will cause resentment and it's not fair to either of us to pretend that the future will be problem-free when he has "conditions" that I am very uncomfortable with.

He was super quiet, barely said a word. Finally, he said, "I hope you are never in a situation where you grow old and need our daughter to take care of you, but her spouse refuses." And I said to him, "I will never put our daughter in a situation where she is forced to choose between me and her spouse. I want her to be happy and healthy." I told him that I hope we can stay friends because I don't want our daughter to see that her parents hate each other or can't stand each other. She deserves a healthy relationship with both of her parents and for that reason, we have to be on good terms with each other.

I feel so sad. I feel like sh!t, actually. He looked so sad when he packed up his bags and went home. Shoulders slumped. He cried. I cried. I actually said to him: I'm sorry, I hope you don't hate me. And he said, "I just wish you made better decisions". I said to him, "I wish you had, too!" Why do I feel like the bad guy?! Am I the bad guy? My parents are going to be upset...they might not say it, but I know they will be. 

I told my husband that it's better he knows right now, that I do not ever intend on living with his mom. Thank you for all of your advice on TAM, encouraging me to be open and honest and not delay the inevitable. I am not ready to divorce him, but our separation continues. Maybe as long as it takes for me (and him) to become strong enough to finally let go of each other and find fulfilling lives apart from each other. I just wish it didn't hurt so much.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

breezycello said:


> By no means am I saying you should divorce, but think long term. Will anything change if he does not get counseling to help all of you through this. i don't believe so. Mine will not do counseling either, as he doesn't see that he has any issues that they can help with either. Denial for both of them. Sad for us...but you can be happy and healthy and continue to be a good mother. Stay focused.
> 
> And you do not have to do anything you are not ready for, ever!!!


Hi Breezy, thank you for your support. I will try to be focused and become healthy for my daughter's sake. You made a very important point when you said that nothing will change without counselling/therapy...and he refuses to go to counselling. I'm very sure that he realizes the therapist will call him out on his very unhealthy attachment to his mother and so he refuses to go.

He said to me, "You're forcing me to choose between my mom and you." And I said to him, I'm not forcing you to choose - I am giving you your freedom. I know you're happy with her and because I care about you, I am letting you go wherever you are happy and peaceful. I am not going to force you to be with me or push and pull you in my direction. I see men who put their wives and kids as their priority and I ask myself: why can't I have the same? Don't I deserve the same? Doesn't our daughter?


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

((((Orange Pekoe))))


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Jane139 said:


> It is too bad your own parents are not more "on your side". Even if they "mean well" they are not helping at all. Sounds like if it was up to you alone, you would know what to do...carry on living alone with your daughter, either separated or moving toward a divorce. Your husband is not going to ever become the husband and father you want and need. Maybe (maybe) once his mother is gone, but even then, the siblings will be around, grabbing for their share of your husband and his instinct will be to respond to them over you and your needs.
> 
> While it is true to some extent that we marry a family, not just a person, this situation is over the top. He is continuing to choose them over the family he helped create.
> 
> As I said before, it all comes down to what you can put up with.


I had my dad's full support thus far, but once my husband came to me and asked to move in, my dad very strongly encourages me to try to make things work with him. I can try, but only within limits - and living with his mom is off limits.

I cannot put up with his family, and I cannot pretend that I'm OK with him putting me and our daughter second/third/fourth after his biological family members. I just don't want that stress in my life anymore.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

mupostori said:


> what is your religion ?
> 
> I think you should stop beating about the bush and tell him straight up that you don't want to live with his mother.


I'm Muslim. Our religion places a lot of importance on treating our parents with respect and love - but also on taking care of your wife and children. We went to a religious counsellor for 2 sessions. My husband expected the religious counsellor to take his side, but instead was surprised to hear STRONG ENCOURAGEMENT to move out of the home where his mother/brother is, and in to a home with me and my baby girl. All that advice fell on deaf ears.

Only the separation/divorce papers changed his mind. But even that was a temporary fix.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

intheory said:


> Assuming you are of the Christian religious faith:
> 
> "The man said, "This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man." For this reason *a man shall leave his father and his mother,* and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.…" Gen.2 23,24
> 
> ...


You haven't offended me at all - thank you for sharing. 

I really don't know what's up with his mom. I would be so heartbroken to even think of my child breaking up her marriage because she wants to live with me or take care of me! I wouldn't put her in that situation to begin with. My husbands' mom expected both her sons, and their wives and their kids to live together as "one big happy family".


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Openminded said:


> I hope the fact that he wanted to take his mother to the doctor rather than attend your daughter's appointment *was the wake-up call you really do need. Yes, he's not only going to always put you second but your daughter too* (along with any future children). And your daughter (and any others) will know that.
> 
> My guess is you come from a very conservative culture so everyone supports your marriage (and not your divorce) -- especially your parents. *Your husband in reality has done nothing except agree to live with you for a few months before going back to living the way he always has (and expecting you to join him next year). You will just be postponing the day of reckoning* if you let him move back in. Especially since you haven't told him you won't live with his mother next year. Right now, he thinks he's convinced you to his way of thinking. And your parents will pressure you even more once he's back.
> 
> *This is your life. You are the one who has to live it so you need to decide what's best for you.* I know you want to make your marriage work and you would have a good shot at that if he would let go of his mother and brother and sister. But he won't. And you know it.


I read and re-read this post a lot today. Thank you for all of the very helpful advice. You are right, his "solution" was only a temporary fix, because he expected me to move in to a house with his mother when my apartment lease expires in several months. The minute he realized that would not happen, he said his goodbyes. And that is better than dragging this out and causing drama 7 months from now, and probably not being strong enough at that point to counter all of the pressure from friends/family to "make the marriage work".


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

jld said:


> ((((Orange Pekoe))))


Thank you.


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

I'm sure it was very hard and sad for both of you but you did a phenomenal job.

BTW, Both my parents (who are divorced) plus my MIL all say they would never impose on us by asking to live with us. Not that there is anything wrong with parents living with you when it works well for all involved, but your husband's level of attachment to his mother over you and your daughter is inappropriate (IMO).


----------



## breezycello (May 29, 2015)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I did it.
> He came over this evening with a bag of clothes, expecting to stay overnight. We chatted for a bit and I said to him, "I expected you to be at our daughter's appointment because it was very important, but you decided to take your mom to her appointment instead. My heart breaks for our daughter because this shows that she is not your priority." He brushed it aside...he said, "It doesn't mean that I don't care about her." I said to him, "I know that you care about her, but unfortunately not as much as other people in your life. She's my priority, she's the first person I consider and ensure is taken care of." And he brushed it off again and told me to let it go.
> 
> I cooked dinner, we ate, and he wanted to go for a walk. That's when I sat him down and told him that I cannot live with his mother, not in 6 months, not ever. I explained to him that living with his mom means living with his family, and that I cannot go back to that living situation because the outcome will be the same: we will fight and argue and repeat history. I told him that obviously neither of us are ready for a divorce right now, and I know that he will choose to live with his mom, so the best thing to do is for him to live with her. He can see our daughter whenever he likes, and nothing on the separation agreement (that I wanted him to sign last week) has changed, and that we will need to sit down and sign those papers. But this part-time husband/part-time wife business is eating me up and will cause resentment and it's not fair to either of us to pretend that the future will be problem-free when he has "conditions" that I am very uncomfortable with.
> ...





Orange_Pekoe said:


> Hi Breezy, thank you for your support. I will try to be focused and become healthy for my daughter's sake. You made a very important point when you said that nothing will change without counselling/therapy...and he refuses to go to counselling. I'm very sure that he realizes the therapist will call him out on his very unhealthy attachment to his mother and so he refuses to go.
> 
> He said to me, "You're forcing me to choose between my mom and you." And I said to him, I'm not forcing you to choose - I am giving you your freedom. I know you're happy with her and because I care about you, I am letting you go wherever you are happy and peaceful. I am not going to force you to be with me or push and pull you in my direction. I see men who put their wives and kids as their priority and I ask myself: why can't I have the same? Don't I deserve the same? Doesn't our daughter?


Orange  I am soooo proud of you...I know that the decision you made and being open and honest was very, very hard. You standing up for yourself and your daughter is an inspiration! Sad yes, but that is because you love him and I do believe he loves you too. We have all heard that sometimes love is not enough. That is very relevent here. You are loving yourself by taking care of you...and without that, you can't love outward. I hope that makes sense. Late and tired 

Telling him that because you care about him, you are letting him go and will not force him in your direction is a good thing for him and you. It really does put this back into his court and make him accountable for his choices. You do deserve the happiness and respect that you see with other families. This is an opportunity for you to build friendships and surround yourself with people that are happy and respectful, without worrying about his family. Take care of yourself and try to let some of the stress roll now. You have made a decision and followed through with it. Separation is good and when you are ready for the next step, whatever that may, you will be stronger.


----------



## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Hi Orange, I know how hard this must have been. (((hugs)))

While you think about all these events see if you can remember that there are lots of ways to love your H could honor his mother that don't involve the level of interference your H allows. You were not asking him to disregard his mother, you were asking him to honor his wife. In lots of families the two concepts are not mutually exclusive. I am sorry your H views them as such.

You did a wonderful job reminding your H of your priority with your child. Perhaps in the coming days he will realize what he is missing and be willing to consider another solution. 

It is exhausting being so strong, both physically and emotionally. Be good to yourself.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Hi everyone, thank you for your kind words and encouragement. It was one of the most difficult things I've had to do. But I knew it had to be done, and sooner rather than later.

There's more to the story.

He left for an hour, then called me and asked if I could drop our daughter to him in the morning (because he was taking her out for the day for a work-picnic function). I told him to just come over and sleep here (in another room of course) and take her in the morning, because it's much easier. So he did.

In the early morning, around 5am, he woke me up and asked to talk. And guys - he's desperate. He literally begged me not to end our marriage, to forget the past, to let it go and start fresh. I told him: It's just too late. I cannot mend my relationship with your family and you expect me to live with your mom, and it's not happening. I will never live with her again. Wherever she is, your sister and brother will be, and when they get together, they talk about me and make my life miserable. And YOU are a different person around your mom!

He spent 2 hours trying to convince me that they care about me etc. but I know better. Actions speak louder than words. You don't live with a bunch of people for 3 years who caused the destruction of your marriage and then believe that they love or care about you.

I also told him that I can't just forget that he basically ditched us the past 11 months in favour of his biological family. We should come first, we should be his priority, he should think about us first. And he said "I do, I will". I said I'll see it when I believe it. I also told him that no matter what I think about his family, my husband was to blame for forcing us to live together in a toxic environment for 3 years...I told him, "Nobody had a gun to your head. And nobody had a gun to your head telling you not to move in to an apartment with us the last 11 months. You're the bad one, you're the one who has to shape up and learn how to be a husband who cares about his wife and child. Not your mom, not your brother or sister."

Anyway, very long story short - he said he needs to be with us as a family unit (him, our daughter and I) and that we will try very hard to mend our marriage. He also said OK to me not moving in Feb or ever living with his mom...which honestly surprised me. I had expected him to walk away, not beg, or accept my terms.

I told him he can move in with us, but that's all I'm agreeing to. No moving. Nobody interfering in our marriage. I also MADE SURE he knows that I am giving him this chance to show me that he is trustworthy, to re-earn my trust in him, and my respect.

So he has moved in and we will see how the next few months go. I love having him with us, it feels like we are newly married because we have never lived alone together...and we've been apart for a year. On the other hand, I'm not stupid - I know people usually don't change and they put on a good face until they get what they want. I also know he hasn't gotten any therapy and the anger bursts are still there, hiding. But the triggers in the past were us living with his family...that trigger doesn't exist anymore so I am waiting to see if we can rebuild our life together. Time will tell.

He needs to put me and our daughter first. And he needs to detach from his family. To be fair, I have seen changes in him for the better. 

On another note: I had a nightmare about his family again. I wish I never had to see them again.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

For him, it will be a slow process, and he will backslide into his old behavior a lot, it is deeply ingrained into him. This is where you remain stalwart, and keep a level of emotional distance because if things do not work out again, you want to avoid the emotional turmoil for a second time.

you will have to be the environmental factor that changes his behavior. When he has outbursts, do not engage and state you both will talk when he can handle himself.

As always, keep on those goals of improving yourself. The danger is that things go smoothly for a short period of time, then you think the danger is over and then his issues arise again. It could take years for this type of issue from interfering with your family. Even then, spending time with his family could bring back all his old behavior and habits. Those learned response is just replaced with healthier ones, but people. places, and events, can trigger his old behaviors and habits. Things can go well for a few years, and it is possible that he spends all day with his brother and you have the old him again as an example.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Mr.Fisty said:


> For him, it will be a slow process, and he will backslide into his old behavior a lot, it is deeply ingrained into him. This is where you remain stalwart, and keep a level of emotional distance because if things do not work out again, you want to avoid the emotional turmoil for a second time.
> 
> you will have to be the environmental factor that changes his behavior. When he has outbursts, do not engage and state you both will talk when he can handle himself.
> 
> As always, keep on those goals of improving yourself. The danger is that things go smoothly for a short period of time, then you think the danger is over and then his issues arise again. It could take years for this type of issue from interfering with your family. Even then, spending time with his family could bring back all his old behavior and habits. Those learned response is just replaced with healthier ones, but people. places, and events, can trigger his old behaviors and habits. Things can go well for a few years, and it is possible that he spends all day with his brother and you have the old him again as an example.


I agree with everything you've written. I'm scared that he will fall back in to old habits, and that I will as well.
I observe my own actions around him. It's easy to be the "old me" (submissive) but, I forcefully do not allow myself to be that. I let him know right away, when something bothers me (the old me kept it inside). I stand ground on issues that are important to me. He is very respectful of me (for now...) and when we talk about something that bothers us, it's always in a very calm way. But again - that's "for now..."

We've sat down and I've explained to him that I will no longer tolerate any kind of yelling or emotional/verbal abuse. If that happens, for any reason, he would no longer be welcome. So he's on his best behaviour. I've also said that he can "say" and "promise" all sorts of things but none of it means anything to me if he doesn't SHOW ME. I'll believe it when I see it.

People's habits do not change unless they actively want to (and try to) change them. 

He knows that I do not need him, but I WANT him with us. I think that has made all the difference. He knows he has no upper hand, it's either he will be a good husband and father, or he will be out of our lives.

His biological family is still a huge chunk of his daily life, he spends half his time with them. I've got no contact with them. I have made it clear that he needs to show me that my daughter and I are a priority for him. It's still a transition for him and I always tell him that we need to become a strong family unit on our own, without outside interference. I see him taking steps in the right direction and I give him credit for that.

In my estimation it will take (at least) a year to see if he truly will change, and if his family truly will back off. His family has not changed AT ALL! My husband will have to set ground rules and limits with them. 

I haven't started wearing my ring yet and will not be wearing it until I'm confident we can make it as a marital unit.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

I've also realized that I really need to get in to personal counselling. On my own. 

1. I have some kind of post-traumatic stress from the time I spent living with my in laws. I re-live past events a lot and it makes my present miserable at times. I'll be drying my hair in the morning or brushing my teeth and re-live a scenario from the past (or make one up about the future) and get all riled up about it. It's crazy.

2. I catch myself staring at him and thinking, "You're really cheap for trying to kick me out of your house. I realize everyone makes mistakes but part of me knows you don't deserve for me to take you back."

3. I don't trust him. I don't believe him when he makes a verbal commitment to do something. I've agreed to give him this chance to show me he has changed.

4. I have become VERY no-nonsense. I extremely dislike when someone says or does something that offends me and immediately tell them what they've done that I do not like. Maybe this is good - but it also makes me seem to be a very negative person.

This is going to be a very hard struggle internally.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

I hear you, my mother was a codependent and that allowed my father to abuse me. Over time, she picked up on some of his abusive behavior as well.

I will never trust my mother with my life, safety, nor will I seek her for much. I learned not to trust her.

It is usually the ones we love that really fcks us up. The dark side of love is that we will tolerate a lot of pain from the ones we love because of that need to reinforce those bonds. I learn to love people from a distance. The problem with that is there is always going to be a deep protective wall that I have in place when she is around. Our bond will always be limited because of that wall.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Orange, sounds like you are becoming a 'new woman', good for you. It's good that you are in in your own place, at least you both have a chance to try and work things out and if they do not, then you do not have to leave. You can do this, stay strong!


----------



## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I agree with everything you've written. I'm scared that he will fall back in to old habits, and that I will as well.
> I observe my own actions around him. It's easy to be the "old me" (submissive) but, I forcefully do not allow myself to be that. I let him know right away, when something bothers me (the old me kept it inside). I stand ground on issues that are important to me. He is very respectful of me (for now...) and when we talk about something that bothers us, it's always in a very calm way. But again - that's "for now..."
> 
> We've sat down and I've explained to him that I will no longer tolerate any kind of yelling or emotional/verbal abuse. If that happens, for any reason, he would no longer be welcome. So he's on his best behaviour. I've also said that he can "say" and "promise" all sorts of things but none of it means anything to me if he doesn't SHOW ME. I'll believe it when I see it.
> ...


Good for you! It sounds like you are doing great having reasonable standards for how to be treated. The only thing that concerns me is that he is still spending 50% of his time with his biological family. That sounds excessive, though maybe the culture is different where you are than it is where I am. But that could explain some of your trouble letting go of memories and having paranoid fantasies of what's possibly to come (#1 in your second post). Of course not much time has passed, it will take time for you to get used to the new normal and feel safer. I'm sure you are traumatized!


----------



## Mike6211 (Jan 18, 2013)

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I've also realized that I really need to get in to personal counselling. On my own.


Shouldn't he be getting counselling as well? Maybe going back to that religious counsellor who he was happy to see, until he got told things that he didn't want to hear?


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Mr.Fisty said:


> For him, it will be a slow process, and he will backslide into his old behavior a lot, it is deeply ingrained into him. This is where you remain stalwart, and keep a level of emotional distance because if things do not work out again, you want to avoid the emotional turmoil for a second time.
> 
> you will have to be the environmental factor that changes his behavior. When he has outbursts, do not engage and state you both will talk when he can handle himself.
> 
> As always, keep on those goals of improving yourself. The danger is that things go smoothly for a short period of time, then you think the danger is over and then his issues arise again. It could take years for this type of issue from interfering with your family. Even then, spending time with his family could bring back all his old behavior and habits. Those learned response is just replaced with healthier ones, but people. places, and events, can trigger his old behaviors and habits. Things can go well for a few years, and it is possible that he spends all day with his brother and you have the old him again as an example.


Mr. Fisty, I'm very sad to read that. Your mother is supposed to be the one person you can always trust to take care of you, protect you with her all. Then again...we can say the same for fathers, we have similar expectations from our spouses (such as being faithful). People have a way of disappointing us.

You are wise for not trusting her.
I am wise for not trusting my husband. He has a lot to prove, a lot to earn back. But since I am "evaluating" him, I need to work on myself to determine whether I truly have changed, whether I truly am the independant woman I think I've become. Independance is much more than moving in to a condo and taking care of your child on your own. It's emotional independance as well, knowing that I don't "need" him but I "want" him and ONLY if he treats me with respect and honour.

This morning I spoke with my mom's neighbour whom I haven't seen in almost a year. She knew about my separation (conversations with my mum) and asked me, "Has he ever hit you?" I don't blame people for thinking that my husband must be some kind of monster. No, he never hit me, and I don't know why I feel embarrassed when someone asks me that. But if I had stayed with him in that environment, I believe eventually he would have. And at the end of the day, is verbal abuse any less painful?

In many ways I feel like he is a child, who did not learn to be self-sufficient or independant, and always had enablers. Someone to "rescue him" from his mistakes. He only woke up and stopped the divorce when he realized nobody else could rescue him but himself. I feel as though I am teaching him to grow up and become responsible.

Yes, it's often our family that screws us up royally. I see it in my husband. I've been shaped by my parents a lot - that's why I ran in to a marriage thinking of it as an "escape" from the over-protectiveness and controlling nature of my dad. I tell him that a lot now...I say, "Dad, I got married quickly and ignored a lot of red flags because I had no freedom at home. We all see what the result was. So let me live my life now without making my decisions for me. I'm going to do it regardless." And he finally sees me as an adult who lives her own life. He's finally learned to let go. 

I also grew up watching my parents fighting and seeing my mom be the submissive wife - and the emotional toll that took on us kids. So I promised myself not to do that to my child. Which is why I walked away from an emotionally toxic environment and demanded better for myself and my daughter. There were several instances when my mom strongly encouraged me to go back to living with my husband and in laws in the same home. She said, "they've learned their lesson...they've changed." And every time, I got so upset with her. And told her flat-out, "Do you want me to be oppressed my whole life? Don't I deserve better? They have not changed and in fact will treat me WORSE if I go back. You should write a sign on my forehead that reads DOORMAT - STEP ALL OVER ME...then send me back." 

I will no longer allow a human being to put me or my child in a situation where we can be abused...emotionally, verbally or physically. I won't complain, I won't scream, I won't rage. I will walk away. I need my life to be productive and peaceful and the first step is to ensure the people around me are productive and peaceful. If my husband has changed and falls in to this category, we will keep him. Time will tell. But just as important, I need to become productive and peaceful. I'm not yet there.

My goal is to not screw up my daughter.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

aine said:


> Orange, sounds like you are becoming a 'new woman', good for you. It's good that you are in in your own place, at least you both have a chance to try and work things out and if they do not, then you do not have to leave. You can do this, stay strong!


Thank you aine! You don't know how much it helps me to have positive reinforcement/encouragement from the good people on this forum. I take all the comments, think them over, match them to my own priorities and values and take steps accordingly. I don't think I could have become a stronger person if I didn't have support from TAM members.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

WorkingWife said:


> Good for you! It sounds like you are doing great having reasonable standards for how to be treated. The only thing that concerns me is that he is still spending 50% of his time with his biological family. That sounds excessive, though maybe the culture is different where you are than it is where I am. But that could explain some of your trouble letting go of memories and having paranoid fantasies of what's possibly to come (#1 in your second post). Of course not much time has passed, it will take time for you to get used to the new normal and feel safer. I'm sure you are traumatized!


I live in Canada. I was born in a very different part of the world but grew up in Canada, so did my husband. It is not normal for my husband to be with his biological family 50% of the time. He is still deeply involved with them and I feel VERY threatened by his family. He is selling his home which he owns with his brother, and they have close the sale and give the key over in a month. At that time, the official "break" has to happen. That was the home we lived in with my in laws...the home I left when I decided to separate...and the home where my husband stayed with his biological family. Once that home no longer exists for them, he will have to make our condo his permanent residence. If he doesn't, we have no future together.

I am very traumetized. I do not trust them one bit. And I know they will cause chaos in my life if I allow them to interfere. I don't know what they are saying to my husband or manipulating him with. But my worst side came out when I was living with them and I don't want these negative people dragging me down with them again. 

My daughter is very trusting of people. She is social, she plays freely, eats well, and is a very happy child (thank you God!). I attribute a lot of it to having a peaceful and nurturing environment around her. Whereas her cousin (my husband's brother's child) who is only 3 months younger than her, is scared of people when she goes outside, does not play with strangers outside and will not eat. She cries a lot and screams. I lived in one home with my in laws for 3 years so I KNOW FOR A FACT that the toxic environment has affected the poor child and she is probably traumatized as well. From all the negativity and yelling. That is proof right there that I made the right decision a year ago by leaving, not just for myself but for my child!


----------



## Orange_Pekoe (Jan 5, 2015)

Mike6211 said:


> Shouldn't he be getting counselling as well? Maybe going back to that religious counsellor who he was happy to see, until he got told things that he didn't want to hear?


Yes, I've asked him to go to counselling. He said no, until I told him that I won't live with his mom and he shouldn't move in with me, then he got desperate and begged me not to end the marriage. During that conversation, he agreed to go to the religious counsellor.

The problem is - he ignored the religious counsellor's advice in the past. So he will ignore it again.

I am going to go to a secular counsellor and eventually take him with me.


----------

