# Inappropriate wife/co-worker texts?



## smoothieking

Hi everyone,
I recently saw that a co-worker of my wife's texted her on the weekend about something work related but not important. They both work at a University on campus, same building different floors. She does not hide or delete the texts and we both have the same phone passwords but don't regularly go through each others phone for any particular reason. In any event, the Saturday text sent off a little radar so I went and read their text history. From my perspective, several of his texts to her are inappropriate and/or overly flirtatious for this to be a co-worker relationship, and for the most part her replies are fairly benign, but there are a few that struck me as inappropriate or over the line. The coworker is ~43 and she's 38, both married with kids, we live in different towns 1hr away and there is no mutual family friendship or hanging out to justify an out of work friendship/relationship. I met the co-worker for 2 minutes over a year ago at a function we went to at the university. I have no reason to suspect anything physical here, but I am concerned at the rate in which they take walks, get coffee, go to lunch, and the amount of texting that isn't really work related. There are several texts clearly after working hours and some on the weekend. My wife does occasionally mention this person, but she's never stated that they get coffee/lunch/walk etc. The texts also indicate at least once they have met for drinks on an early Friday for a couple of hours, on which that day she texted me that she was "leaving later than planned". This was at 4:47PM so not a late night or anything but in her control to leave when she wanted if hanging out at a local watering hole vs. stuck in a meeting. Her texts back to him in regards to "I miss you!!!" and "YES 1000x" are not OK with me. 

I don't even get those type of texts from her and its hurtful to see this level of enthusiasm put into texting when it is not reciprocated with me. If I boil it down, I think if she found this exact text conversation + situational exchange between me and a female co-worker she would be crushed and disapprove. I also know that he and his wife are having struggles, we've had our own general life challenges as well. All of the texting really seems to have ramped up around November of 2018.

*Do any of you agree this "exchange" is too inappropriate?* I plan to talk to her about it but wanted to try and assess any levels of basic jealousy and whats driving that vs my thoughts that this is totally inappropriate. I have changed all of the names/locations/personal info.

*TEXT HISTORY*
Fri 12/15/17	Amy: Hey Nathan, this is Amy 
Fri 12/15/17	Nathan: Hi Amy this is Nathan in case you didn't know my last name  
Fri 12/15/17	Nathan: Are you at work today	
Fri 12/15/17	Amy: I am working remotely from home
Sat 12/16/17	Nathan: Heya, Christy sending me photos. What is name of tall African American graduate	
Sat 12/16/17	Amy: John Winslow
Sun 01/28/18	Amy: *** Image: homemade MUFFINS***
Sun 01/28/18	Amy: (3:39PM)These guys just came out of the oven, 6 are yours if you're interested.. I'll make it 7 if you want one for quality control 
Sun 01/28/18	Amy: Blueberry Banana
Sun 01/28/18	Nathan: (7:07PM) I would so love that. I was unable to make blueberry muffins today because one I had to make a Sams run into my dishwasher I mean my washing machine decided to and leaked all over the laundry room.	
Sun 01/28/18	Nathan: Couple that with the fact that my wife is in Italy and tomorrow is my daughter's birthday I am actually making cupcakes but still have to get my kids ready for bed.	
Sun 01/28/18	Nathan: So yes I will graciously accept six of those muffins and will be indebted to you	
Sun 01/28/18	Amy: You arent' indebted and they are yours! Machines have a talent for failing at thew orst times.
Mon 01/29/18	Nathan: Hey I forgot to tell you I dropped off the muffins with Rob and he was Uber excited. Again thank you.	
Fri 02/02/18	Nathan: Damn you! Why are you working remotely? I needd a brainstorming partner!	
Fri 02/02/18	Amy: I'm only a phone call away!
Fri 02/02/18	Nathan: So not the same…	
Fri 02/02/18	Nathan: You force me to listen to the Dropkick Murphys Pandora station. This is where I've gone since you're not here	
Wed 04/04/18	Nathan: Are u actually coming?!	
Wed 04/04/18	Amy: I am, probably miss the first bit and not going ot make the dinner but though that doesn't mean I couldn't participate in everything between!
Wed 04/04/18	Amy: Plus I told you I'd sign up, oh and Ben Robeson signed up now too, he used the professional development pitch with his manager and they are covering it for him.
Wed 04/04/18	Nathan: Oh. Total buzz kill. I mean I am thankful u are going to come to some of the events but drinks and dinner would have been fun!	
Wed 04/04/18	Amy: Oh I'll make the drinks 
Wed 04/04/18	Nathan: Hahaha	
Wed 04/04/18	Amy: Just not dinner
Wed 04/04/18	Nathan: OK. Dinner is not plated, BTW. Mix ang mingle, but OK. I will take what I can get.  
Thu 06/07/18	Nathan: Hey Amy, Nathan here. Checking in seeing how you're doing. I'm going to work on an assumption that youa re just wicken busy. That you are purposely ignorming and that I pissed you off somehow . Are you at work today or you working from home? Any chance of seeing you this evening with Tim?	
Thu 06/07/18	Amy: Are you in your office? Headed your way
Thu 06/07/18	Nathan: Nope	
Thu 06/07/18	Nathan: Lineberry, I have mtngs.	
Thu 06/07/18	Amy: OK - Not ignoring you, but have been struggling lately health wise and trying to keep pace. I don't think I'll be able to meet you and Tim tonight, but I'll fill you in more tomorrow.
Thu 06/07/18	Nathan: Sorry to hear you aren't well. I hope nothing serious! Text me when u get in.	
Fri 08/24/18	Amy: Hey, we had a change of plans in our weekend and are now able to come ot the picnic, I know it's way behond the rsvp, is it OK if we come ( we could bring our own food to not mess with the numbers)?
Fri 08/24/18	Nathan: Hahaha. I'd love for yall to be here!!	
Sat 08/25/18	Nathan: Day of service 5431 N Johnson Street  
Fri 08/31/18	Amy: Do you watch TV much? Did you ever watch How I met your Mother? -- there is a point to this question
Thu 09/06/18	Amy: Had a meeting yesterday and this came to mind
Thu 09/06/18	Amy: *** image: office space what would you say ya do here ***
Thu 09/06/18	Nathan: Hahahaaa	
Thu 09/06/18	Nathan: Sitting outside cracker barrel in Clarendontown	
Thu 09/06/18	Nathan: So please, stop by  
Thu 09/06/18	Amy: Just a slight detour
Thu 09/06/18	Nathan: *** image: cracker barrel higway sign ***	
Thu 09/06/18	Nathan: a marker to help you find your way	
Thu 09/06/18	Amy: I'll try not to confuse the 8 other cracker barrels on the way there
Thu 09/06/18	Amy: Are you rocking in the the sweet rocking chairs, early game of checkers with a donor discussion
Thu 09/06/18	Nathan: Tell me about it I'm hoping that I'm at the riht one!	
Thu 09/06/18	Nathan: I would be but he's not here. I'm not rocking yet. Sitting at a bench. I'm serious I'm hoping I'm at the right one	
Thu 09/06/18	Amy: It’s a legit concern
Thu 09/06/18	Nathan: No ****. Thought meeting was 8.15, maybe 8.30	
Thu 09/13/18	Nathan: Hey Amy so the reason that university is not being tapped for the Project is because they already blundered it once	
Wed 09/26/18	Amy: You here today?
Wed 09/26/18	Nathan: nope	
Wed 09/26/18	Nathan: brothers weekend	
Wed 09/26/18	Nathan: ***beermug emoji***	
Wed 09/26/18	Amy: Fun! Have a blast!
Wed 09/26/18	Nathan: Need something?	
Wed 09/26/18	Amy: Your sage advise, will keep till you're back. Have a wonderful time this week!
Wed 09/26/18	Nathan: Hahahaaa	
Fri 10/05/18	Amy: Still wan't to catch up?
Fri 10/05/18	Nathan: Day has gone to ****	
Fri 10/05/18	Nathan: And I am off to therapy soon…	
Mon 10/08/18	Amy: I need caffeine and carbs!
Mon 10/08/18	Nathan: I'll walk	
Mon 10/08/18	Amy: Headed your way in about 5
Mon 10/08/18	Nathan: Come and get me	
Tue 10/09/18	Nathan: Hey how did it go today	
Tue 10/09/18	Amy: It went OK, it's a 50/50 shot a this point
Tue 10/09/18	Nathan: I want whats best for you but selfishly I hoep they don't offer you the job	
Tue 10/09/18	Nathan: But really honestly I truly do want whats best for you	
Tue 10/09/18	Nathan: So don't think badly of me please.	
Tue 10/09/18	Nathan: You're not supposed to leave until I leave one more year!	
Tue 10/09/18	Amy: I don't think badly of you, I'd feel the same way if you told me you were interviewing!!
Thu 10/11/18	Nathan: Can you call me. I am home with kids. School canceled. Seriously.	
Tue 10/16/18	Nathan: Hey are you on your way in? I left my coffee at the house I'm walking over to law bar to get a cup. Would u like one?	
Tue 10/16/18	Amy: Hey just saw this, thanks for thinking of me, I grabbed starbucks on the way in
Tue 10/16/18	Nathan: Sure thing. So I assume you saw Leslie can't do our meeeting today. Can you do Friday? We could do a half-day!	
Tue 10/16/18	Amy: I did, I have a couple of appointments in greensboro Friday hav eto see if cI could get them rescheduled
Tue 10/16/18	Nathan: Sounds good	
Fri 10/19/18	Nathan: Hey are you in the building?	
Fri 10/19/18	Nathan: Let me know when you get here	
Fri 10/19/18	Nathan: We are 2nd bldg furthest from parking lot	
Fri 10/19/18	Amy: Parking now
Fri 10/19/18	Nathan: Think u can find yur way	
Fri 10/19/18	Nathan:  
Fri 10/19/18	Amy: Hopefully, I drove by the building so I have a visual.
Fri 10/19/18	Nathan: It smells so nice here	
Fri 10/19/18	Nathan: Hey Amy, thanks for today. Great meeting with LIsa. Perhaps you're out grabbing a beverage with her at this very moment. I also appreciated the most meeting conversation. Have an excellent weekent.	
Fri 10/19/18	Amy: The tahnks goes all to you Nathan. I really enjoyed the meeting and especially the post conversation. Should have warned that I tend not to have light conversations. I do appreciate your friendship! Id id stop in and say hey to Lisa, she said she hopes to work toegether. You have a great weekend as well and here's to hoping the lice finally kicked it!
Fri 10/19/18	Nathan: I don't know about the lice. Trying to breath. Conversation had me thinking on the ride hime, so thank you. Have a nice wknd as well. Catch up on Monday. We can see who is next to leave the school.	
Thu 10/25/18	Nathan: Are you coming in today?	
Thu 10/25/18	Amy: I was.. Emergency vet visit with the dog. M ight try ot make it in this afternoon, I'm there tomorrow.
Thu 10/25/18	Nathan: OK. Dinner is not plated, BTW. Mix ang mingle, but OK. I will take what I can get.  
Thu 10/25/18 Nathan: I hope the puppies okay!	
Thu 10/25/18	Amy: She is getting old - so like me I assume the worst always
Thu 10/25/18	Amy: I'm sure it's just an infection
Thu 10/25/18	Nathan: I hope its just an infection	
Thu 10/25/18	Nathan: Let me know if theres somehting I need to do here for you	
Fri 10/25/19	Amy: Being you is enough. If I don't come in we could catch up by phone if we ned to get together today, otherwise lets plan on tomorrow afternoon.
Fri 10/25/19	Nathan: Tomorrow works	
Fri 10/26/18	Nathan: (10:37PM) Hey, sorry that I had to leave without saying goodby to you and pretty much everybody else at the vent. Thanks for being there it seemed like it went really well. I 'd love to hear what the dean had to say to you. Have a great weekend and check in on Monday.	
Sat 10/27/18	Amy: No sorry needed, if you had said good by to everyone you would have never gotten out of there. It did seem to go really well. The talk with the dean was mostly uneventful - I'll fill you in Monday
Sat 10/27/18	Amy: How was the dinner?
Sat 10/27/18	Nathan: Dinner was good. Not sure how I ate but I did	
Sat 10/27/18	Nathan: Carl Ernst is a very nice brialiant scholar. His wife was very nice.	
Sat 10/27/18	Nathan: Did Ben ever get to talk to Maria do you know? If not I will work an email introduction	
Mon 10/29/18	Amy: Did you leave for coffee yet?
Mon 10/29/18	Nathan: Nope	
Mon 10/29/18	Amy: On my way
Mon 10/29/18	Nathan: About to meet with Alexis if u want to join us. It s about Grants	
Mon 10/29/18	Nathan: She is coming here  
Thu 11/01/18	Nathan: Good morning Amy. I'm on my way to meet Aaron. Anything I ought to know?	
Thu 11/01/18	Amy: The biscuits at Corner st diner are amazing. Nothing specific - enjoy the conversatoin. Aaron has done the leadserhip program and is very knoweldgable in the ennegram
Thu 11/01/18	Amy: Are you back at work?
Thu 11/01/18	Nathan: Hey there! Melt I am at the local 25 reastaurant in Duluth. About to meet with Albert Stone in 20 min	
Thu 11/01/18	Amy: OK, it will wait till tomorrow - long and short my boss told me no to do ay development or fundraising work
Thu 11/01/18	Nathan: What?!	
Thu 11/01/18	Nathan: Ugh. Ridiculous	
Thu 11/01/18	Nathan: Okay I am on my way back. Why would she say this? Like who to talk to her about you talking about fundraising and development?	
Fri 11/02/18	Nathan: (11:38AM) What time are we cutting out?	
Fri 11/02/18	Amy: (12:54PM) I don't know the judgement eyes are upon me
Fri 11/02/18	Nathan: Uhg. OK, I wanna go drown sorrows.	
Fri 11/02/18	Nathan: Thinking midtown brewery as my kids are at Riverton arts center	
Sat 11/03/18	Nathan: (6:17AM) Really could have used that drink…	
Sat 11/03/18	Amy: (10:54AM) I'm sorry we didn't. Any support I could give you via text?
Fri 11/09/18	Nathan: Hey I sent you a parking pass. If you are not able to print it out just text me when youa re getting to work and I can run it out to you	
Fri 11/09/18	Amy: Thank you Nathan!
Fri 11/09/18	Nathan: (1:22PM) I am not long for this place, Prob head out around 2…	
Fri 11/09/18	Amy: Got delayed - walking to my car now
Fri 11/09/18	Nathan: K	
Fri 11/09/18	Amy: (4:45PM) I got my FaceTime credit! Thank you again, glad it worked out and lookin forward to more!
Fri 11/09/18	Amy: BTW lets set aside a some time Tuesday afternoon to finalize a plan for Leslie
Fri 11/09/18	Nathan: (6:47PM) Ha glad you got yoru FaceTime. I will set aside time on Tuesday. Have agreat weekend!	
Sat 11/10/18	Nathan: So today is my birthday. I don't think my family knows/remembers.	
Sat 11/10/18	Nathan: Seriously, its like 16 Candles! 
Sat 11/10/18	Amy: (5:30PM) Happy birthday
Sat 11/10/18	Amy: I sincerely you your family had/has plans for you today
Sat 11/10/18	Amy: Whatever the Nathan equivalent to sitting on a table with dreamy Jake. Soemthing with beer!
Sat 11/10/18	Nathan: Nope. Neither my wife nor my son nor my daugheter wished me happy birthday.	
Sat 11/10/18	Nathan: I got some texts though	
Sat 11/10/18	Nathan: My dad remembered last night and sent me a text saying he just realized that my bday was tomorrow	
Sat 11/10/18	Nathan: One of the Coaches has said happy birthday	Im sorry Nathan, that is beyond disappointing
Sat 11/10/18	Amy: Wish I lived in the same town
Sat 11/10/18	Amy: ::my husband:: makes a great cookie cake and I buy beer very well
Sat 11/10/18	Nathan: I don't even know what to do with this	
Sat 11/10/18	Amy: I'm at a loss on what to say, I imagine words wouldn't help much anyway
Sat 11/10/18	Amy: Darren and I sent a little something to your house.,Hope it got there
Sat 11/10/18	Amy: 5415 Southland Court right?
Sat 11/10/18	Nathan: Oh ****	
Sat 11/10/18	Nathan: Hahaha u and Darren trying to make me eat healthy. Thank u!	
Sat 11/10/18	Amy: You are so welcome, wish there was a more we could do to make it a happy birthday!
Sat 11/10/18	Amy: Other than contribute to healthy eating. Hahah
Sat 11/10/18	Nathan: Apparently she got the wrong day.. She thoought it was tomorrow	
Sat 11/10/18	Nathan: I'm done. Going to cash it in.	
Sun 11/11/18	Amy: (6:55AM) I made light hoping that she would come around during the day. I imagine ther eis a lot to unpack especially on to of your dads resonse, if you want to talk I'm here. I'll try calling you later today. Im sorro this was how things went yesterday.
Sun 11/11/18	Nathan: so she planned stuff.. Tour of Yankee stadium when we are in NY for xmas. She's overwhelmed with tenure ****. Vote by dept is Wed, the day she leaves for colorado. So now I am feeling bad for her not remembering when my bday was. But there is is so much more to unpack	
Tue 11/13/18	Nathan: U still around?	
Thu 11/15/18	Nathan: (7:45PM)I think I will drink bourbon tonight	
Fri 11/16/18	Amy: Hope you did, it was your Friday!
Fri 11/16/18	Nathan: If only it could be happy drinking	
Fri 11/16/18	Nathan: I do hope the kitchen is coming along	
Mon 11/19/18	Nathan: Off to have lunch with Sharon	
Mon 11/19/18	Amy: Have fun! Sharon's good for the soul!
Mon 11/19/18	Amy: I'll find you after my 1pm meeting
Mon 11/19/18	Amy: Hope you two are having fun!
Tue 11/27/18	Nathan: Coffee?	
Tue 11/27/18	Amy: Hey just saw this, I'm off site til this afternoon. Afternoon walk?
Tue 11/27/18	Nathan: Sure. I've got to head out at 2 ish to get coffee with Mal then another coffee with Jerri Bland…	
Tue 11/27/18	Amy: How about lunch?
Tue 11/27/18	Nathan: Sure!	
Tue 11/27/18	Nathan: Thoughts?	
Tue 11/27/18	Nathan: Heya. Thanks for lunch. My turn next time. Let me know if u are able to make the bris, I might need someone to lean on, I am not good with blood …	
Wed 11/28/18	Amy: GO Nathan with that email!!!
Wed 11/28/18	Nathan: Hahahaaa	
Wed 11/28/18	Nathan: I probably just put a Target on my back. I twouldn't be the first!	
Wed 11/28/18	Amy: Wish I could join you at the bris. I watched our son's circumcision - it wasn't too bad. At bris usually there are so many people that you don't see much
Wed 11/28/18	Nathan: Are you meeting me in Jonesburg?	
Wed 11/28/18	Amy: It may get a Target from one place but apperciation from so many others
Wed 11/28/18	Nathan: Yes that appreciatino is coming in responses to my email	
Wed 11/28/18	Amy: You'll be fine, remember the goal is for him to deal with people as little as possible!
Wed 11/28/18	Amy: You have high amounts of social capital. Besides that you have a good hear and are damn good at your job. The optimist in me says that wins
Wed 11/28/18	Nathan: Just got the angry email from my boss	
Wed 11/28/18	Nathan: With follow up where told not to send email to the dean.	
Wed 11/28/18	Amy: I was in a meeting next to her. Hate to hear you got a nasty gram
Wed 11/28/18	Nathan: Yea. We will see if I have email access tomorrow..	
Thu 11/29/18	Amy: Thinking of you!
Thu 11/29/18	Nathan: My ****ing God. He's a ****ing douche.	
Thu 11/29/18	Amy: Lunch?
Thu 11/29/18	Amy: I have to be here at 1pm for a meeting
Thu 11/29/18	Nathan: I am spent… exhausted.	
Thu 11/29/18	Amy: It's been a roller coaster of a week for you
Mon 12/03/18	Amy: Coffee?
Mon 12/03/18	Nathan: Yeah	
Mon 12/03/18	Nathan: Let me get out of MPA fac staff mtng	
Mon 12/03/18	Nathan: Ready when you are	
Mon 12/03/18	Amy: Ready
Mon 12/03/18	Amy: meet you down there
Mon 12/03/18	Amy: Got pulled on my way
Wed 12/05/18	Nathan: Sorry!! Mtng with my boss  
Thu 12/06/18	Nathan: I'm going to fetch coffee, need any? Walk with me?	
Thu 12/06/18	Amy: Just saw this, sorry, did you ogo?
Thu 12/13/18	Amy: Are you here today?
Thu 12/13/18	Nathan: No, out of town work meeting	
Thu 12/13/18	Nathan: Hi!	Hi!!!! I miss you!!
Thu 12/13/18	Amy: Are you here tomorrow?
Thu 12/13/18	Nathan: Yes. I have lunch meeting with Maura and then I believe I am meeting with you in the afternoon yes?	
Thu 12/13/18	Nathan: Is that still happening	
Thu 12/13/18	Amy: YES!!!! X 1000
Thu 12/13/18	Nathan:   
Thu 12/13/18	Nathan: Will you be in in the morning	
Thu 12/13/18	Amy: Yes
Thu 12/13/18	Nathan: Great, Thoughts on when you will be able to meeting in the afternoon? Sooner the better !	
Thu 12/13/18	Nathan: And maybe walk for coffe in the AM?	
Fri 12/14/18	Amy: Coffee?
Fri 12/14/18	Nathan: Where u at?	
Fri 12/14/18	Amy: Waiting for you to text me that your lunch was over?
Fri 12/14/18	Nathan: Oh sorry. Come quick!!	
Fri 12/14/18	Nathan: I know u gotta leave	
Fri 12/14/18	Amy: On my way!!
Fri 12/14/18	Amy: Sorry for the confusion
Fri 12/14/18	Nathan: Hey never said Thank you, I still need to hammer out the details for Leslie and Fidelity. I'll try to have something to you on Monday. Have a great weekend!	
Mon 12/17/18	Nathan: Coffee if u are in?	
Mon 12/17/18	Amy: 15 min
Mon 12/17/18	Amy: Ready if you are
Mon 12/17/18	Nathan: Crap. Make up mtng at 10!	
Mon 12/17/18	Nathan: And law bar is out … post mtng?	
Mon 12/17/18	Nathan: Let me know if u are up for afternoon walk for coffee	
Mon 12/17/18	Amy: I'm headed back home and then Dr.
Mon 12/17/18	Nathan: Oh. Is everything ok?	
Mon 12/17/18	Amy: Seemingly sick again -- can't shake it
Mon 12/17/18	Nathan: Don’t you come and cancel Thursday!	
Mon 12/17/18	Nathan: I mean I want you to get better but I'm a selfish person.	
Wed 12/19/18	Nathan: How was the Doc? You on the mend? U coming in?	
Wed 12/19/18	Amy: On the way there
Tue 01/01/19	Nathan: (9:08AM) Heya. Happy New Year!	
Tue 01/01/19	Amy: Was thinking of you this morning! Happy new year to you too! How was the trip north?
Tue 01/01/19	Nathan: Decent. Always a challenge..	
Tue 01/01/19	Nathan: U have a nice holiday?	
Tue 01/01/19	Nathan: Santa good to u?	
Thu 01/03/19	Nathan: Hey, checking in, hadn't heard from you . Hope you're well	
Thu 01/03/19	Nathan: Kind of concerned that you got a new job!	
Thu 01/03/19	Amy: (7:58PM) Hey there sorry I've been off the grid. My nephew had surgery yesterday to replace his pacemaker - he ha a heart disorder. I've been helping out. I'll be back tomorrow.
Fri 01/04/19	Nathan: I am sorry. I hoep he's doing well! I got kids today so I am working remotely. Beware they were ticketing the parking lot yesterday	
Wed 01/09/19	Nathan: Walk?	
Wed 01/09/19	Amy: Yes, on my way
Fri 01/11/19	Nathan: Hey. Pull into the lot. Let me know when u are here and I'll run u out a pass	
Fri 01/11/19	Amy: Stuck behind a bus for 10 min, there in 5
Fri 01/11/19	Nathan: OK	I'm not worried about the pass now, I'll grab it and put it in my car when we leave. Want to head out in 10 min?
Fri 01/11/19	Nathan: Sure, come get me when u wanna go	
Fri 01/11/19	Nathan: I could have used that afternoon coffee!	
Mon 01/14/19	Amy: my boss has been rattled since getting back to her office
Mon 01/14/19	Nathan: Hmm..	
Tue 01/15/19	Amy: Good morning! Could you do me a favor? I told my boss I would leave a note on my door explaining I am working remotely - I forgot to do it. Could you put a post it note on my door at some point today that says working remotely
Tue 01/15/19	Nathan: Of course	
Tue 01/15/19	Nathan: *** image post it ***	
Tue 01/15/19	Amy: Thank you!!
Tue 01/15/19	Nathan: Of course. H ave ag ood day. Will miss our daily.	
Wed 01/16/19	Amy: Coffee in 15?
Wed 01/16/19	Nathan: Ah, come get me if u havent gone	
Wed 01/16/19	Amy: On my way in 5
Fri 01/18/19	Nathan: U in?	
Fri 01/18/19	Amy: Not yet, meeting with Susie for coffee when I get there, want to join?
Fri 01/18/19	Nathan: Susie?	
Fri 01/18/19	Amy: Johson
Fri 01/18/19	Nathan: Ah. Sure.	
Wed 01/23/19	Amy: Are you going to the 9.30 sexual harassment info session?
Wed 01/23/19	Nathan: I'm still sick	
Wed 01/23/19	Amy: OH NO!!!!
Wed 01/23/19	Nathan: At Dr. right now actually	
Wed 01/23/19	Amy: Good, hope it's not he flu! Get rest
Wed 01/23/19	Nathan: Trying!	
Thu 01/24/19	Amy: How are you feeling today?
Thu 01/24/19	Nathan: Well, I don't have strep throat	
Thu 01/24/19	Amy: Flu?
Thu 01/24/19	Nathan: Far from 100%	
Thu 01/24/19	Nathan: You know, they said even if I had the flu there would be nothing they could do about it since I was coming down with this possibly on Friday	
Thu 01/24/19	Nathan: But they don't believe I have the flu. And they don't believe I'm contagious	
Thu 01/24/19	Nathan: I'm working from home today then will go to a meeting at 3, I hope to be in tomorrow.	
Thu 01/24/19	Nathan: How are you doing?	Still, give yourself plenty of time for rest
Fri 01/25/19	Nathan: WLC at the university	
Fri 01/25/19	Nathan: At all fundraisers mtng and Chris Taylor just mentioned.. Have u put the council on the radar for EW group? If not we should.	
Fri 01/25/19	Amy: I haven't - and Yes!
Fri 01/25/19	Amy: How are you feeling today?
Fri 01/25/19	Nathan: #garbage	
Fri 01/25/19	Nathan: Are u here	
Fri 01/25/19	Amy: I'm next door
Sat 01/26/19	Nathan: (9:30AM) I probably s houldn't have been to work yesterday …	
Sat 01/26/19	Amy: Correct
Sat 01/26/19	Amy: Having a backslide today?
Sat 01/26/19	Nathan: Feeling like ****. At cynthia's ballet. Gotta take boy to IMACs class, then cynthia to Bday party	
Mon 01/28/19	Nathan: long day in Hikcory! Driving back now. Ugh!	
Mon 01/28/19	Nathan: How was your day	
Tue 01/29/19	Nathan: hey, going to fetch coffee.	
Tue 01/29/19	Amy: I'm working from home today
Tue 01/29/19	Nathan: I know. My text was supposed to be funny in some way	
Tue 01/29/19	Nathan: I am still sick!!	
Thu 01/31/19	Nathan: Coffee?	
Thu 01/31/19	Amy: I just finished a meeting and was about ot exxt you! Yes. Giv me 5 and I'll head to your office
Mon 02/04/19	Nathan: Please let me know if you need anything	
Mon 02/04/19	Amy: Thank you - i appreciate you lietting me dump that on you
Mon 02/04/19	Nathan: I don't consider it a dump. I am happy to be here for you if you need anything.	
Wed 02/06/19	Nathan: Good morning Amy. Was thinking about you yesterday, I hope all is as well as can be expected with yoru mom. I'm headed to (nearby town) this afternoon. If you are (in your hometown) love to grab coffee	
Wed 02/06/19	Amy: Hey thanks o much for checking in. I am actually on my way to work this AM. My mom is reasitn g and they're hoping that hse can go home tomorrow so I might try to head back to Duluth after the breakfast tomorrow AM not sure what your schedule is this AM I'm later getting in than I wanted to be because there was a wreck on interstate but would love to go grab some coffee
Wed 02/06/19	Nathan: That’s good to hear about your mom. I'm glad I'm actually on my way back home and will be working from home until sometime between 1 and 2. Abby supposedly is sick. I questino that.	
Wed 02/06/19	Nathan: Heya. Hope day went well, that u held up OK. Are you still headed to breakfast tomorrow?	
Wed 02/06/19	Amy: (6:50pm) I'll be at the breakfast but unlikely at the happy hour
Wed 02/06/19	Nathan: Wicked bummer but I understand	
Wed 02/06/19	Nathan: This is what Darren and I are gonna deal with post hapy hour tomorrow	
Wed 02/06/19	Nathan: *** image bowling ***	
Fri 02/08/19	Amy: Headed to jonesburg - are you plannong on sticking around?
Fri 02/08/19	Nathan: wasn't really plannong in it. I think I've done all I can here.	
Fri 02/08/19	Amy: Are you still in Jonesburg?
Fri 02/08/19	Nathan: Heya. No. Just got home	
Fri 02/08/19	Nathan: I had work to do and Knew I'd be more effectve here rather than there.	
Mon 02/11/19	Amy: Coffee?
Mon 02/11/19	Nathan: Sure	
Mon 02/11/19	Amy: I'll walk down there
Wed 02/13/19	Nathan: U here	
Wed 02/13/19	Amy: Yep
Wed 02/13/19	Nathan: Take a walk?	
Wed 02/13/19	Amy: Coffee?
Wed 02/13/19	Amy: yep
Wed 02/13/19	Amy: Down in 5
Mon 02/18/19	Amy: Coffee?
Mon 02/18/19	Nathan: I'm at fundraisers mtng at Friday center	
Mon 02/18/19	Nathan: I'll chck in when I get in	
Mon 02/18/19	Nathan: Coffee now?	
Mon 02/18/19	Amy: Yes! Give me 5 and I'll head your way
Wed 02/20/19	Amy: Didn't want to interrupt went back to my office. Here whenever
Wed 02/20/19	Nathan: Up in 5	
Wed 02/20/19	Nathan: Heya. U coming in? My turn to buy coffee and I need…	
Wed 02/20/19	Amy: I'm coming in, should be there by 9.30
Wed 02/20/19	Nathan: I will tyr to survive until u get here. Have parking?	
Wed 02/20/19	Amy: Not in DTR but found my id so I'm able to get into bellview deck
Wed 02/20/19	Nathan: Want one for the deck?	
Wed 02/20/19	Nathan: I have one cause I am hosting annual fund people today	
Wed 02/20/19	Amy: Sure, Im on MLK - I'll text when pulling in. Thank you!
Wed 02/20/19	Nathan: Meet u in the basement.	
Wed 02/20/19	Amy: I'm here, see you in the basement
Wed 02/20/19	Nathan: Coming	
Fri 02/22/19	Nathan: Coffee?	
Sat 02/23/19	Nathan: (9:12AM) Holy ****, Asst dean Email. Who runs the school. That is ****ing ridiculous.	
Mon 02/25/19	Nathan: Happy monthat that feels like a Monday. Lemme know if you are interested in a walk for coffe	
Mon 02/25/19	Amy: I'm ready if you are
Mon 02/25/19	Amy: Its my turn
Mon 02/25/19	Nathan: Wanna meet at the stairs	
Mon 02/25/19	Amy: walking down now
Fri 03/01/19	Amy: How are you today?!?
Fri 03/01/19	Amy: I just came up for air
Fri 03/01/19	Nathan: Heya. Sorry, was mtng with Rick then Ben in Warm Springs	
Thu 03/07/19	Amy: Hey I'm home today. Feeling crappy with a cold. Hope yesterday's therapy was uplifting and helpful! Coffee tomorrow?
Thu 03/07/19	Nathan: Hey Amy I am home too, feigning a headacge. I just wanted to work remotely.	
Thu 03/07/19	Nathan: Sorry that you are feeling like crap!. Absolultely coffee tomorrow	
Thu 03/07/19	Nathan: Yo! U see the email about Greyson?!	
Thu 03/07/19	Amy: I did. Is that James being dry? Seems abrupt
Thu 03/07/19	Nathan: He has already been removed from the school website	
Thu 03/07/19	Nathan: When folks leave there usually is a thank you. He's been wint the school for a good bit of time and he's an alumnus	
Thu 03/07/19	Amy: I thought that was the case but oculdn't remember. I'm sure info will start coming out. He seemed like a good guy - hope it's not something on the Harvey Weinstein scale
Thu 03/07/19	Nathan: Well there were those who were uncomfortable around him	
Fri 03/08/19	Amy: Are you here today? I hav a meeting at 10am, want to grab coffee afterward?
Fri 03/08/19	Nathan: Just finished my mtng. Ready when u are	
Fri 03/08/19	Amy: Down in 5
Fri 03/08/19	Nathan: So… made it to veccina for a beer. Have a good weekend. See you Monday	
Tue 03/12/19	Nathan: Heya. Checking in, didn't ge ta reply to my email yesterday, wasn't sure if you were in yesterday	
Tue 03/12/19	Nathan: And wanted to be sure all was OK	
Tue 03/12/19	Amy: :ur son:: has a nasty ear infection so I was home with him yesterday. Hope to be back in tomorrow.
Tue 03/12/19	Nathan: I am sorry! Just checking in. Need me to open your door ?	
Wed 03/13/19	Amy: Coffee??
Wed 03/13/19	Nathan: Sure	
Wed 03/13/19	Nathan: We have to walk tho	
Wed 03/13/19	Amy: As in take a walk afterwards?
Wed 03/13/19	Amy: Ohhh
Wed 03/13/19	Amy: university food bar - ha
Wed 03/13/19	Amy: Walk is fine with me
Wed 03/13/19	Nathan: She isn't coming!	
Wed 03/13/19	Amy: Oh!
Wed 03/13/19	Nathan: Like I don't know where she is…	
Wed 03/13/19	Amy: Maybe she's in another meeting that’s running over
Wed 03/13/19	Amy: Want to head out or wait to hear from her?
Wed 03/13/19	Nathan: Umm. Lets give it 10 min	
Wed 03/13/19	Amy: Did you find her?
Wed 03/13/19	Nathan: OK we can go	
Wed 03/13/19	Nathan: If u are still wanting coffee	
Wed 03/13/19	Amy: Of course
Wed 03/13/19	Amy: Meet you at the stairs in 5
Wed 03/13/19	Nathan: I imagine meeting me for coffe or a non alcoholic adult beverage isn't possible? probably need to stay at the office?	
Wed 03/13/19	Amy: I do need to stay - is everything OK?
Wed 03/13/19	Nathan: Yeah.	
Thu 03/14/19	Amy: Do you have lunch here? Going to walk down to brueggers
Thu 03/14/19	Nathan: Heya. Just seeing this. I found cold breakfast and ate a pound of backon…	
Thu 03/14/19	Nathan: I'd be happy to walk with you. Tho I am waitng on Tricia to return some things of mine	
Thu 03/14/19	Amy: Your door is open, are you here? Thought it is a imax day but maybe htose have now officially moved to Tues? I ended up eating early sori I missed walking with you!
Thu 03/14/19	Nathan: Hey Amy yes I was here. Just in a meeting with Kristen from 3 to 4 who did her best to **** on a donor wall.	
Thu 03/14/19	Nathan: I'm on my way out the door	
Thu 03/14/19	Amy: I'm sorry for everything you wrote in that text.
Thu 03/14/19	Amy: OK I am out tomorrow, lets catch up Monday
Thu 03/14/19	Nathan: I don't know what her problem is	
Thu 03/14/19	Nathan: Sounds good, have a great weekend	
Mon 03/18/19	Nathan: U in?	
Mon 03/18/19	Amy: I am, knee deep in excel but here. Need to grab food at law bar if you want to walk for coffee
Mon 03/18/19	Nathan: I am yours whenever. Though I need to be here around 12:30 to meet with a student	
Mon 03/18/19	Amy: Lets go now. I'll be at the stairs in 5
Mon 03/18/19	Nathan: K	
Wed 03/20/19	Amy: Did you schedule additional Atlanta meetings or are you in this morning
Wed 03/20/19	Amy: Later this morning given the happy hour end time
Wed 03/20/19	Nathan: I am at hotel in Atlanta	
Wed 03/20/19	Amy: *** Thumbs up emoji ***
Wed 03/20/19	Nathan: Confused by ur text	
Wed 03/20/19	Nathan: I have a meeting for lunch. Then I'm just going to go home from there. We will probably pass on the road.	
Wed 03/20/19	Amy: Affirming you are there. I was driving. Sad to miss out on coffee with you
Wed 03/20/19	Nathan: Me as well. Tomorrow?	
Wed 03/20/19	Amy: Yes
Thu 03/21/19	Amy: Coffee at 11?
Thu 03/21/19	Nathan: I'd like that	
Thu 03/21/19	Amy: walking down now
Fri 03/22/19	Nathan: Missed you at the announcement. Was good	
Mon 03/25/19	Amy: Need to grab lunch - thinking Brueggers and starbucks. Walk with me?


----------



## Kamstel

Have contacted the guy’s wife? 

Contact her. Share your concerns and send her all the texts.


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## Kamstel

How does your wife react to you concerns?


----------



## Broken_in_Brooklyn

Count the number of texts you and your wife shared over the same time period.


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## jlg07

She is going out on dates for coffee, lunch and drinks. SERIOUSLY do you think this is all just "innocent" work friends?
Contact his wife and send these text to her as others have said. DO NOT let your wife know you have the texts, nor let her know you are contacting the other guys wife.

HAVE you confronted her about going out for drinks/lunch and NEVER telling you? The fact that she is hiding this lets you know that she KNOWS this kind of activity doesn't pass the husband smell test..


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## notmyjamie

It sounds like they are each others work "spouse." I didn't read anything that made me think they're having a full blown affair, just that they seem to enjoy each other's company at work and like to discuss work related things. They'll go days sometimes without messaging and I'd think if it was a true affair they would not skip any days. 

I don't blame you for being nervous about their friendship but it doesn't seem to be more than that to me. They don't banter the way a couple having sex would banter. 

How is your relationship with your wife? Are there other red flags? 

I work with a woman who always seems to have a work husband. When the current one leaves, she finds a new one. She enjoys the friendships but she never goes beyond friendship with them. She loves her husband and has never shown any signs of cheating on him. And since she shares WAY too much about her life, if she were cheating, her coworkers would know about it believe me.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=work wife


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## Rubix Cubed

That seems way too friendly for just a working relationship. It's already an emotional affair from what you posted and the fact that she lied about going out for drinks with him.


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## SunCMars

Well, they certainly are besties. They are very chummy.

I think he wants more than friendship.

She is not far behind.

This borders on an EA, not a PA, yet. 

Both of them sound more cerebral and rather cool.

Almost passionless.

Boundaries could be crossed quickly if one or the other made the move.





[THM]- TT-I


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## SunCMars

Egad! 

My eyes popped out of my head when I saw that you had typed out all those messages.

Geez!


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## Sports Fan

Mate i have recently just been there. My wife was sending and recieving snapchats of a similiar nature some inappropriate from the guy. 

In my case it was the final straw that broke the camels back and i decided I'm leaving her.

This is no innocent friendship. There is at the very least an emotional affair happening here if it hasn't turned physical yet.

Your wife is lying to you about staying back late but really went to drinks with him, lunches, and coffee dates have occured which she has not bothered to mention to you.

Nip this in the bud now. Confront and come down hard. Tell her this friendship ends or your marriage will end. And most importantly if you make a threat follow through. Cause if you make a threat and don't carry through with it she will have your number and put you through all sorts of misery whilst she continues this arrangement underground.


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## ABHale

This is already an emotional affair. 

Be ready for “we are just friends”


----------



## the guy

It looks like an EA is progressing.

What I find interesting...later on the in the text history...it almost seems code like, were as early on it was general banter.

It could be something more...like "coffee" meaning...IDK "alone time" or "sex"? I mean early in the history it was more like a conversation and now it seems like they are both "in sync" with each other.


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## farsidejunky

Okay, here is the hard part for most people in your situation to understand, and even harder to enforce.

It does not matter one iota how any of us feel about it. 

How do YOU feel about it?

If it isn't okay, you don't need internet strangers to confirm it. Be true to yourself and tell her it needs to stop.

That said, if I were in your shoes, I would tell her she is more than welcome to continue such behavior, but not as my wife. 

As often as modern society likes to shame men...especially in academic circles...there are times where getting in touch with your inner caveman is necessary. This is one such time. 

As a final note, I would send a log of all texts to his wife without warning your spouse. Not only will that shine the light of day on their activities, but it will help you gauge the depth of your problem. If it really bothers your wife that you did it, your problems are exponentially more dire.

Good luck, brother. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## smoothieking

My conclusion is that they are certainly work spouses - I don't happen to have one because where I work is 90% male. She has not lied about the going out for drinks, simply not disclosed to me. I also agree that he is teeing up the opportunity to move to the next level should the opportunity present itself in the future, but it's also a fine line for him as well testing the boundaries and being married himself. I tend to see this as an early/mild emotional affair that hasn't significantly progressed but has gone too far for my liking. I will certainly be discussing this with her in the coming weeks. On a neutral/positive note, there are some contextual things that I simply can't convey just by posting these texts. I know my wife very well and truly have confidence that there is nothing physical, and that she would not be the first one to cross that line. There are no other red flags in the relationship. She does need significant emotional support from me and that can be challenging at times being more of a nuts and bolts type of person than in tune with emotions, but that doesn't yield a free pass to get it from someone else. My needs in turn are more physical (holding, back rubs, etc.) so for me to get those needs fulfilled outside the marriage would be obvious violations. As mentioned, I will be confronting her about it soon, the key is in a manner that prevents defensiveness and portrays the impact to me of her actions. Thanks for everyone's inputs so far!


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## Marc878

If I were you I'd download the phone bill and tally up the texts and phone calls/time between the two. It should be a very big eye opener. Make sure you print it out. Nothing like having the data at hand.

It doesn't look like much yet but this is how it can get started. I'd bet she is having more communication with him than you.

I would go ahead and get a copy of "Not Just Frieds" by Glass. That will put a big perspective on this I'm sure.

Better head this off before it escalates. They can very quickly.

Yes, you will get the "we're just friends" but .......


----------



## the guy

It's also hard to figure out what's going on without a time stamp to any particular day.

It almost looks like they go from one topic to another with in one day meaning some replies and responses were deleted.

It's like they are together then finish up with a conversation after their meeting. It's hard to tell if they are together all day long, or something is deleted out of the text history.


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## Marc878

smoothieking said:


> My conclusion is that they are certainly work spouses - I don't happen to have one because where I work is 90% male. She has not lied about the going out for drinks, simply not disclosed to me.
> 
> Bud, it's a lie by omission.
> 
> I also agree that he is teeing up the opportunity to move to the next level should the opportunity present itself in the future, but it's also a fine line for him as well testing the boundaries and being married himself. I tend to see this as an early/mild emotional affair that hasn't significantly progressed but has gone too far for my liking. I will certainly be discussing this with her in the coming weeks. On a neutral/positive note, there are some contextual things that I simply can't convey just by posting these texts. *I know my wife very well and truly have confidence that there is nothing physical, and that she would not be the first one to cross that line. *
> 
> Maybe, maybe not but just about everyone who goes through infidelity swears their spouse would never do this to them. You have the luck to have caught this in the early stage. This **** happens all the time and this is how it usually starts. Address it coolly and calmly with logic (print out the phone bill data pertaining to his number). It'll be an eye opener I'm sure. I double she even realizes how much this is.
> 
> There are no other red flags in the relationship. She does need significant emotional support from me and that can be challenging at times being more of a nuts and bolts type of person than in tune with emotions, but that doesn't yield a free pass to get it from someone else. My needs in turn are more physical (holding, back rubs, etc.) so for me to get those needs fulfilled outside the marriage would be obvious violations. As mentioned, I will be confronting her about it soon, the key is in a manner that prevents defensiveness and portrays the impact to me of her actions. Thanks for everyone's inputs so far!


Most men always have sexual thoughts. I doubt he's the exception. You need to get your info together sooner than later.

If she continues to walk on the ledge at some point he will pull her over but she's also a big girl and knows this. Probably likes the attention. Hence her omission of drink night out and with whom.

If it were me I'd say I know men and where this can lead. I'm not having it in my life.

If you play around and don't stand your ground you'll get to wallow in this for awhile. She's in pretty deep and will not want to cut this off.

It might be a good idea if that happens to send your phone data to his wife without warning.

Glad you reached out you maybe one of the few that caught it early enough.


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## Marc878

Go online and see how many phone calls/length there are. Plus what time/weekends, etc. You might be shocked.


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## Marc878

farsidejunky said:


> As a final note, I would send a log of all texts to his wife without warning your spouse. Not only will that shine the light of day on their activities, but it will help you gauge the depth of your problem. If it really bothers your wife that you did it, your problems are exponentially more dire.


Perfect action. Let him explain it.


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## AKA Broken Arrow

You need to shut this down, the sooner the better. I’m the wayward in my relationship and these texts made me cringe since they reminded me of my A. Started out innocent, never got sexual then turned into a PA one day. Seems like this guy is playing the long game.

“Nobody wished me a happy birthday” boo hoo. Shut it down man. She’ll get mad at you for spoiling her “friendship” but protect your marriage before it’s too late. Good luck.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sokillme

smoothieking said:


> My conclusion is that they are certainly work spouses - I don't happen to have one because where I work is 90% male. She has not lied about the going out for drinks, simply not disclosed to me. I also agree that he is teeing up the opportunity to move to the next level should the opportunity present itself in the future, but it's also a fine line for him as well testing the boundaries and being married himself. I tend to see this as an early/mild emotional affair that hasn't significantly progressed but has gone too far for my liking. I will certainly be discussing this with her in the coming weeks. On a neutral/positive note, there are some contextual things that I simply can't convey just by posting these texts. I know my wife very well and truly have confidence that there is nothing physical, and that she would not be the first one to cross that line. There are no other red flags in the relationship. She does need significant emotional support from me and that can be challenging at times being more of a nuts and bolts type of person than in tune with emotions, but that doesn't yield a free pass to get it from someone else. My needs in turn are more physical (holding, back rubs, etc.) so for me to get those needs fulfilled outside the marriage would be obvious violations. As mentioned, I will be confronting her about it soon, the key is in a manner that prevents defensiveness and portrays the impact to me of her actions. Thanks for everyone's inputs so far!


This is the kind of thing that with the wrong person this can go too far. It doesn't look like it has here but not telling you about going out to drinks is not good. What made you check her text if I may ask?


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## Kamstel

Do you plan on talking to his wife?


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## [email protected]

Hi Smoothie, I really don't like this. This thing your W has could easily slip into a PA. I'd be willing to bet that there's other communication you haven't seen.


----------



## Spicy

I bet there are a TON of texts she has deleted. Or they are using another app to talk. Is she on her phone a lot more than say, a year ago?

I would dig a little bit more before you confront her. IF there is a relationship and you show your cards too soon, they may take it more underground. If you dig and find nothing else, then absolutely do all you can to put a stop to this immediately and forever. 

Send the wife the texts, confront your wife, and give work hubby a call and tell him to stay away from YOUR wife.


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## frusdil

Nothing about this is appropriate. Shut this down now.

I'm not the jealous type, but I am protective of my marriage and if a woman were texting my husband like this, I'd be ready to give *****es stitches.


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## SunCMars

Yes.....

These texts are innocuous, maybe purposely so.

Maybe is small, purposely even smaller, though not impossible in this case.

People know inappropriate texts when they send and receive them.

Once sent, there is no retrieval mechanism.

Remember these are not fools. Both are highly educated people.

While I see no evidence of [beyond talk] cheating, maybe this is the intended purpose of 'keeping' the texts in the open.

Why did she not erase her history?

Again, the fact that she met him for drinks says otherwise. She would have erased those.

Use the VARs for a few weeks. See if the texts match her 'in person' persona.

Ah, you have waited this long....
...............................................................................................................................

Before confronting, I would place some VARS around to catch words not written, capture those words spoken.

Those words may not be light colored, they may tinge on pink, maybe blush red.

Place one in her car, maybe in her office at work. One at home where she likes to sit and relax, when you are not home, maybe outside doing yard work.


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## StillSearching

This Nathan is focused on one thing.
You know it too. 
Best you expose to OMW. 
Keep your wits.
May be time for her to start looking for new employment.


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## Chaparral

Has anyone bing changed? The way she dresses. Fixing her self up more. Personal grooming? Your sex life? More or less? Underwear you haven’t seen her wear? Attitude toward you? Different schedules? Etc.


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## smoothieking

My first red flag went up when that Saturday text came in a couple of months ago about some email the assistant dean sent out. It seemed wierd to get a text about that on a Saturday. I have some small audio devices that i've been using in the car for a couple of months, so far nothing. They have only talked on the phone a time or two per the phone bill, one of those recent times she mentioned during an unrelated conversation about her day that day. The phone text QTY and phone bill text QTY align, at least for the last couple of months I have access to, so there doesn't seem to be anything deleted. I don't think this is a full scale EA going on but the dialog here has helped affirm that it is certainly inappropriate, and left alone could go to far at some point. I'm mostly pissed at the amount of time this person gets, and when she's home she exhausted for work and 1hr commute both ways, I feel like I get the "**** hours" of the relation ship. There are no other changes in terms of attire/makeup/hours/schedules, everything is the same as years ago. 
I will keep audio monitoring at home and car, don't have a good way to monitor at work based on the type of bag she uses. I also prefer to hold the card of sending the text history to his spouse -- if the conversation with my wife goes poorly when I bring it up, I can use that as leverage to validate if someone else that is impacted by this behavior thinks it is inappropriate.


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## TDSC60

Weekend texting alone makes it inappropriate. Work related texts should all be during work hours.


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## skerzoid

1. The thing about exposure to the other spouse is that if used as a "threat" or "bargaining chip" *it loses its effectiveness*. Exposure is the best way to stop an affair so do not weaken this.

2. *Exposure to the other spouse is something done without even hinting at it.* If you tell her you are going to do this, it gives them(the work couple) a chance to get their stories straight. 

3. *When you confront, you should have everything organized, and written out as talking points.* This keeps the conversation on track and doesn't let your emotions get in the way.

4. *She is spending more time with this person than you.* She is more relaxed with him than you. When was the last time she asked you to meet for drinks? 

5. *Teachers, especially college level, are high risk for infidelity.*

6. *Asking to go for walks = dating.* Its alone time. "Walks" could also be a code word.

7. *Him talking about marriage troubles or family problems are a red flag also.* She is his confidant. It makes her feel special.

*8. You are correct in calling this inappropriate.*


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## personofinterest

Exposure???

Did I miss something? Are they having sex?

This is much too chummy, but exposure over texts seems...overkill.

She is too chummy with this guy. She needs to back off.

But don't polygraph her and DNA your kids based on speculation.


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## snerg

smoothieking said:


> *My conclusion is that they are certainly work spouses - I don't happen to have one because where I work is 90% male*. She has not lied about the going out for drinks, simply not disclosed to me. I also agree that he is teeing up the opportunity to move to the next level should the opportunity present itself in the future, but it's also a fine line for him as well testing the boundaries and being married himself. *I tend to see this as an early/mild emotional affair that hasn't significantly progressed but has gone too far for my liking. I will certainly be discussing this with her in the coming weeks*. On a neutral/positive note, there are some contextual things that I simply can't convey just by posting these texts. I know my wife very well and truly have confidence that there is nothing physical, and that she would not be the first one to cross that line. There are no other red flags in the relationship. She does need significant emotional support from me and that can be challenging at times being more of a nuts and bolts type of person than in tune with emotions, but that doesn't yield a free pass to get it from someone else. My needs in turn are more physical (holding, back rubs, etc.) so for me to get those needs fulfilled outside the marriage would be obvious violations. As mentioned, I will be confronting her about it soon, the key is in a manner that prevents defensiveness and portrays the impact to me of her actions. Thanks for everyone's inputs so far!


The bold part make me scratch my head.

Not sure by your post, are you okay with her having a work spouse?

You see this as an early/mild EA - you do realize that you have likened this to being a little bit pregnant?

I realize being a little bit pregnant might be a regional saying, but you can't be a little bit pregnant. 
You are or you are not pregnant.
Likewise, you are or you are not in an EA.

So I'm a bit puzzled and perhaps as you post more, your stance will become more clear.


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## Yeswecan

Your W is openly dating her coworker.


----------



## Yeswecan

StillSearching said:


> This Nathan is focused on one thing.
> You know it too.
> Best you expose to OMW.
> Keep your wits.
> May be time for her to start looking for new employment.


Quoted for truth. Nathan is after one thing. Let's face the truth. Time to state your case.


----------



## Edmund

I read most of the texts and it just sounds like a typical “work wife” “work husband” type relationships. I had a few during my 38 year career. The difference is I always told my wife any time I went for lunch or coffee with a female co-worker, that day. 100% transparency. Generally, such meetings were a mixture of work talk and personal talk like friends. Occasionally got a little flirty, but never would I have tried or allowed it to turn into an affair of any type.

I hope I am right in your case. I think maybe your snooping is a little excessive. I would start asking her to tell you how Nathan is doing every now and then, and gauge her response. In other words, at this point, more communication with your wife about her social connections at work and a bit less private eye. If she learns the extent of your snooping, particularly VARs, the message she will be getting from you is “I don’t trust you as far as I can shot put an anvil.”


----------



## Yeswecan

smoothieking said:


> My first red flag went up when that Saturday text came in a couple of months ago about some email the assistant dean sent out. It seemed wierd to get a text about that on a Saturday. I have some small audio devices that i've been using in the car for a couple of months, so far nothing. They have only talked on the phone a time or two per the phone bill, one of those recent times she mentioned during an unrelated conversation about her day that day. The phone text QTY and phone bill text QTY align, at least for the last couple of months I have access to, so there doesn't seem to be anything deleted. I don't think this is a full scale EA going on but the dialog here has helped affirm that it is certainly inappropriate, and left alone could go to far at some point. I'm mostly pissed at the amount of time this person gets, and when she's home she exhausted for work and 1hr commute both ways, I feel like I get the "**** hours" of the relation ship. There are no other changes in terms of attire/makeup/hours/schedules, everything is the same as years ago.
> I will keep audio monitoring at home and car, don't have a good way to monitor at work based on the type of bag she uses. I also prefer to hold the card of sending the text history to his spouse -- if the conversation with my wife goes poorly when I bring it up, I can use that as leverage to validate if someone else that is impacted by this behavior thinks it is inappropriate.


My suggestion...advise your W that you would like to take Nathan and his W out to dinner. All four of you. It would help you get better acquainted with the other person she spends a lot of energy on while you get the low batter light when she arrives home.


----------



## Chaparral

I don’t think I would say anything to her. She’s hiding this relationship. Get the books linked to below and give her the NOT JUST FRIENDS book with no comment.


----------



## SunCMars

smoothieking said:


> My conclusion is that they are certainly work spouses - I don't happen to have one because where I work is 90% male. She has not lied about the going out for drinks, simply not disclosed to me. I also agree that he is teeing up the opportunity to move to the next level should the opportunity present itself in the future, but it's also a fine line for him as well testing the boundaries and being married himself. I tend to see this as an early/mild emotional affair that hasn't significantly progressed but has gone too far for my liking. I will certainly be discussing this with her in the coming weeks. On a neutral/positive note, there are some contextual things that I simply can't convey just by posting these texts. * I know my wife very well and truly have confidence that there is nothing physical, and that she would not be the first one to cross that line.* There are no other red flags in the relationship. She does need significant emotional support from me and that can be challenging at times being more of a nuts and bolts type of person than in tune with emotions, but that doesn't yield a free pass to get it from someone else. My needs in turn are more physical (holding, back rubs, etc.) so for me to get those needs fulfilled outside the marriage would be obvious violations. As mentioned, I will be confronting her about it soon, the key is in a manner that prevents defensiveness and portrays the impact to me of her actions. Thanks for everyone's inputs so far!


I believe she is this type of lady.
However, people change, even briefly so, do so this in error.

Most of us make mistakes, we have those lapses in judgement. 

I do.

Ah, just for a moment, they bend, they fold over, they succumb to some delicious moment in real time.
Especially, if alcohol lowers their boundaries, entices their, that sometime felt, that unwholesome unmet desire.

When alcohol blunts the mind, and that nether place twitches, neither good intentions, nor good sense can hold it back from fulfilling its desire.

A good friend becomes a warm wet thought, this leads to a kiss, the lust is unleashed, it hastily goes further along.

It will happen suddenly, like a light switch......
From off to full on.

Regrets will surely follow.
Follow, reacting too late.

Once on, the switch easily slips back to that place.
On, becomes a well-worn place in time, in mind.

I have some few friends, Ach!
I so know.... this.





[THM]- The Typist I


----------



## NJ2

I have been a WW and this is exactly how it starts. The innocent friendly back and forth work stuff, then the opportunities to have "talking" time alone, then one day the line is crossed. It all sounds so familiar. And I would agree that there are some inside code words going on. My Ap and I would refer to our warm "feelings" for each other as something "inappropriate".
As in he would send me a note ( it was before texting) that said something like "hey do you have time to go for coffee after work I missed talking to you on the weekend. Not meaning to be inappropriate or anything.

This was when we were "just friends". This guy was in it for the long game as well- he patiently waited a heck of a long time meeting for coffee, going for lunches, hanging out in the office after work, going out to dinner, bars, parties, with a group of co workers before anything went physical. When it did cross the line he was also content to continue it without any PIV,or oral. At least during the 6 months that it went on before I ended it. 

H and I's relationship sounded like you and your wifes. I needed a lot of emotional support. I wanted to talk about feelings and ideas all the time. H was more of a physical guy. I exhausted him with all my emotions and talking. He would walk out of the room or change the tv channel while I was pouring my heart out about whatever....then along comes this guy who is more than willing to sit for hours just listening and talking.....He'd look into my eyes while he did it- it felt like- at last here is someone who "gets" me. And because there was nothing actually physically innappropriate going on for such a long time it felt like what i was doing was ok. I even told myself it was good for H not to have to deal with all my emotions anymore. 

The issue with this stuff is that once the EA is under way the chemicals are strong. Its like a need. Its like a pull from a drug. It is very powerful even at the non physical stage. I have asked myself what would it have taken for me to stop the ea/PA and it would have had to have been a very hard line from H. He would have had to take a stance of divorce if it carried on. I think I still would have tried to take it underground even then. It would have taken him leaving- I would have needed to feel that loss because up until that point you have the best of both worlds. Security and long term love/kids/house and the fresh new unicorn that is dropping infatuation bombs all over you to keep things exciting. Hard to give that up unless you realize you will lose the other.I dont think the consequences are ever real unless you get to that point.

FWIW- 4 years ago my H started texting and calling a coworker-way more than he was doing me. He also went for a beer with her and became a bit of a work husband- going by her house to help with little things even though she had a boyfriend. The texts that I read were very similar to your wifes. Mostly about going for coffee, meet me here, where are you, so and so is at the meeting ill bring you coffee, have a great weekend, I see you, wheres my charger?, you going to the office for lunch?....At some point he did start deleting - probably 1000's of texts. -becuase i would get jealous not because they were inappropriate...yea right. He still works with her and says they just dont communicate anymore- I dont know whether it turned physical or not- chances are it did.


----------



## StillSearching

NJ2 said:


> I have been a WW and this is exactly how it starts. The innocent friendly back and forth work stuff, then the opportunities to have "talking" time alone, then one day the line is crossed. It all sounds so familiar. And I would agree that there are some inside code words going on. My Ap and I would refer to our warm "feelings" for each other as something "inappropriate".
> As in he would send me a note ( it was before texting) that said something like "hey do you have time to go for coffee after work I missed talking to you on the weekend. Not meaning to be inappropriate or anything.
> 
> This was when we were "just friends". This guy was in it for the long game as well- he patiently waited a heck of a long time meeting for coffee, going for lunches, hanging out in the office after work, going out to dinner, bars, parties, with a group of co workers before anything went physical. When it did cross the line he was also content to continue it without any PIV,or oral. At least during the 6 months that it went on before I ended it.
> 
> H and I's relationship sounded like you and your wifes. I needed a lot of emotional support. I wanted to talk about feelings and ideas all the time. H was more of a physical guy. I exhausted him with all my emotions and talking. He would walk out of the room or change the tv channel while I was pouring my heart out about whatever....then along comes this guy who is more than willing to sit for hours just listening and talking.....He'd look into my eyes while he did it- it felt like- at last here is someone who "gets" me. And because there was nothing actually physically innappropriate going on for such a long time it felt like what i was doing was ok. I even told myself it was good for H not to have to deal with all my emotions anymore.
> 
> The issue with this stuff is that once the EA is under way the chemicals are strong. Its like a need. Its like a pull from a drug. It is very powerful even at the non physical stage. I have asked myself what would it have taken for me to stop the ea/PA and it would have had to have been a very hard line from H. He would have had to take a stance of divorce if it carried on. I think I still would have tried to take it underground even then. It would have taken him leaving- I would have needed to feel that loss because up until that point you have the best of both worlds. Security and long term love/kids/house and the fresh new unicorn that is dropping infatuation bombs all over you to keep things exciting.* Hard to give that up unless you realize you will lose the other.I dont think the consequences are ever real unless you get to that point.*
> 
> FWIW- 4 years ago my H started texting and calling a coworker-way more than he was doing me. He also went for a beer with her and became a bit of a work husband- going by her house to help with little things even though she had a boyfriend. The texts that I read were very similar to your wifes. Mostly about going for coffee, meet me here, where are you, so and so is at the meeting ill bring you coffee, have a great weekend, I see you, wheres my charger?, you going to the office for lunch?....At some point he did start deleting - probably 1000's of texts. -becuase i would get jealous not because they were inappropriate...yea right. He still works with her and says they just dont communicate anymore- I dont know whether it turned physical or not- chances are it did.


THIS THIS THIS....
Listen to this WW.
WW never reconcile unless things are at risk of the loss of the other!
Not saying you should file right now. But it's gunna take a helluva consequence to stop her.
Once again, Nathan is looking to get into your wife. 
My WW was busted, confronted, left the job, Text messages found, Calls found, Pics found, still lied and still screwed the guy. And once wasn't enough to satisfy him.


----------



## re16

This definitely needs to be stopped, but I think you should stay quite for a little while and continue to monitor a little more closely.

It is fully inappropriate.

What was the thing about facetime? Have you checked her facetime history?


----------



## Taxman

Listen to NJ2. That was a thoughtful and enlightening post, and frankly should be part of a text book. AND yes, I have had wayward spouses of both sexes in my office crying their eyes out, that they did not realize how far the preA was going until the line was crossed. A lot of them never considered that an A was a line drawn in the sand, and once crossed, their lives fell apart. That is never considered in the run up.


----------



## sa58

smoothieking said:


> My conclusion is that they are certainly work spouses - I don't happen to have one because where I work is 90% male. She has not lied about the going out for drinks, simply not disclosed to me. I also agree that he is teeing up the opportunity to move to the next level should the opportunity present itself in the future, but it's also a fine line for him as well testing the boundaries and being married himself. I tend to see this as an early/mild emotional affair that hasn't significantly progressed but has gone too far for my liking. I will certainly be discussing this with her in the coming weeks. On a neutral/positive note, there are some contextual things that I simply can't convey just by posting these texts. I know my wife very well and truly have confidence that there is nothing physical, and that she would not be the first one to cross that line. There are no other red flags in the relationship. She does need significant emotional support from me and that can be challenging at times being more of a nuts and bolts type of person than in tune with emotions, but that doesn't yield a free pass to get it from someone else. My needs in turn are more physical (holding, back rubs, etc.) so for me to get those needs fulfilled outside the marriage would be obvious violations. As mentioned, I will be confronting her about it soon, the key is in a manner that prevents defensiveness and portrays the impact to me of her actions. Thanks for everyone's inputs so far!


She has not lied about the going out for drinks ? Where did she say she was then ? It is lying,
she is dating this guy. Testing the boundaries, I think he has crossed them already and is trying
to get your wife to do the same. Mild emotional affair that is progressing and needs to be stopped.
She does need significant emotional support and she is getting it from him, he knows this!! She will
get defensive with you for sure, no way around it. He is just a coworker, just close friends, it is
nothing your just jealous and overreacting, and it is your imagination etc. She may or may not 
see this as being wrong and its impact on her marriage yet. He is trying to make it progress further
and you need to stop it NOW !! before it goes further. Don't wait, do it now, she will be upset as I
said because you are trying to take away someone who she is close to. TO CLOSE !!

You need to let his wife know also so she can confront him and stop it.
This may not be the first time he has done this type of thing but it needs
to stop before it goes further.


----------



## sa58

smoothieking said:


> My first red flag went up when that Saturday text came in a couple of months ago about some email the assistant dean sent out. It seemed wierd to get a text about that on a Saturday. I have some small audio devices that i've been using in the car for a couple of months, so far nothing. They have only talked on the phone a time or two per the phone bill, one of those recent times she mentioned during an unrelated conversation about her day that day. The phone text QTY and phone bill text QTY align, at least for the last couple of months I have access to, so there doesn't seem to be anything deleted. I don't think this is a full scale EA going on but the dialog here has helped affirm that it is certainly inappropriate, and left alone could go to far at some point. I'm mostly pissed at the amount of time this person gets, and when she's home she exhausted for work and 1hr commute both ways, I feel like I get the "**** hours" of the relation ship. There are no other changes in terms of attire/makeup/hours/schedules, everything is the same as years ago.
> I will keep audio monitoring at home and car, don't have a good way to monitor at work based on the type of bag she uses. I also prefer to hold the card of sending the text history to his spouse -- if the conversation with my wife goes poorly when I bring it up, I can use that as leverage to validate if someone else that is impacted by this behavior thinks it is inappropriate.


Of course there has been nothing deleted, they see each other at work. They also have drinks and coffee 
time to talk. they can take this underground with out you knowing anything since they work together.
The texts can stop or even decrease and you would not know anything. You feel and know it is 
inappropriate and it is then inform his wife. It is not about leverage or anything else, his wife has a right 
to know and decide for herself. If you know how to get in contact with her arrange a meeting and let her
decide. As I said in my previous post you are going to hear many excuses about him from her. This is
an EA and may proceed to a PA if not stopped now. I mean you no disrespect but stop this now.


----------



## dreamer2017

Hire a P.I. Money worth spending!!!


----------



## SunCMars

NJ2 said:


> I have been a WW and this is exactly how it starts. The innocent friendly back and forth work stuff, then the opportunities to have "talking" time alone, then one day the line is crossed. It all sounds so familiar. And I would agree that there are some inside code words going on. My Ap and I would refer to our warm "feelings" for each other as something "inappropriate".
> As in he would send me a note ( it was before texting) that said something like "hey do you have time to go for coffee after work I missed talking to you on the weekend. Not meaning to be inappropriate or anything.
> 
> This was when we were "just friends". This guy was in it for the long game as well- he patiently waited a heck of a long time meeting for coffee, going for lunches, hanging out in the office after work, going out to dinner, bars, parties, with a group of co workers before anything went physical. When it did cross the line he was also content to continue it without any PIV,or oral. At least during the 6 months that it went on before I ended it.
> 
> H and I's relationship sounded like you and your wifes. I needed a lot of emotional support. I wanted to talk about feelings and ideas all the time. H was more of a physical guy. I exhausted him with all my emotions and talking. He would walk out of the room or change the tv channel while I was pouring my heart out about whatever....then along comes this guy who is more than willing to sit for hours just listening and talking.....He'd look into my eyes while he did it- it felt like- at last here is someone who "gets" me. And because there was nothing actually physically innappropriate going on for such a long time it felt like what i was doing was ok. I even told myself it was good for H not to have to deal with all my emotions anymore.
> 
> The issue with this stuff is that once the EA is under way the chemicals are strong. Its like a need. Its like a pull from a drug. It is very powerful even at the non physical stage. I have asked myself what would it have taken for me to stop the ea/PA and it would have had to have been a very hard line from H. He would have had to take a stance of divorce if it carried on. I think I still would have tried to take it underground even then. It would have taken him leaving- I would have needed to feel that loss because up until that point you have the best of both worlds. Security and long term love/kids/house and the fresh new unicorn that is dropping infatuation bombs all over you to keep things exciting. Hard to give that up unless you realize you will lose the other.I dont think the consequences are ever real unless you get to that point.
> 
> FWIW- 4 years ago my H started texting and calling a coworker-way more than he was doing me. He also went for a beer with her and became a bit of a work husband- going by her house to help with little things even though she had a boyfriend. The texts that I read were very similar to your wifes. Mostly about going for coffee, meet me here, where are you, so and so is at the meeting ill bring you coffee, have a great weekend, I see you, wheres my charger?, you going to the office for lunch?....At some point he did start deleting - probably 1000's of texts. -becuase i would get jealous not because they were inappropriate...yea right. He still works with her and says they just dont communicate anymore- I dont know whether it turned physical or not- chances are it did.


Worth repeating.....

A hungry mouth, a hungry lion/lioness will seek food, if they find it they will surely eat of it.
The heart demands of this. It cannot stop its beating, nor can its owner.

Slipping from, I do, I won't, I did, can be a slow or a quick transition.
It depends on the painful angle of that dangerous and hungry slope, and the amount and character of the lusty grease 'applied to the slide'.... it always going down.

The heart is a hungry lover....

Thank you!





[The Helmsman]-


----------



## FalCod

I wouldn't automatically assume that someone that texts and talks frequently with an opposite sex friend has an inappropriate emotional relationship with them. I think that this stuff happens all the time and rarely results in affairs. I don't think anything in that exchange or the complete body of discussion is inappropriate. That said, there are several things here that I find troubling.

The first is that you feel uncomfortable. That's never a good sign. Even if everything is completely innocuous, distrust and unease will harm your relationship.

Here comment "Mon 02/04/19	Amy: Thank you - i appreciate you lietting me dump that on you" could be troubling. It could be a reference to work problems but it could be a reference to her dumping personal problems on you. You don't have the context and you cannot easily get it. Do you recall any special work related stress that she talked to you about during that time? Was their any personal stress at that time? I've had countless people "dump" work issues on me. It's healthy and normal. I've had a few married dump their personal issues on me and it has sometimes been an indicator that their marriage is in serious trouble. Sometimes it is just venting, but sometimes it isn't.

Another thing I find troubling is that she is obviously close to this person but doesn't talk to you about him. My wife hears a lot about the people I hang around with at work and regularly meets with them. We are actively involved with each others lives. In this case, it feels like your wife is keeping this friendship separate from your, which I find troubling.

Your comment about her enthusiasm in the texts not matching how she texts with you is troubling. I have women that send me all sorts of flirty emojis and crap like that, but it's the way they text with everyone. If her communication style with him varies significantly from her communication style with her friends, that's troubling.

If I read between the lines, it sounds like both of them are unhappy with their marriages and are befriending each other. I think your first focus needs to be on identifying what is wrong with your marriage and aggressively addressing those issues. If she's not interested, it's probably because she has already mentally moved on. If she is, make the most of it.


----------



## Talk2Me

my g/f and I have boundaries and we never cross them. We share any and all texts with each other from the opposite sex and from my ex wife etc. If she was going out to lunch and coffee with a male colleague and keeping that from me I would flip. She has gone out with male colleagues while at work for lunch and has told me about it before-hand. She's gone out in groups for drinks after work but not alone with any male colleagues. She doesn't consistently text back and forth with any and neither do I. If I found out she lied to me about working late where in fact she went out for drinks with another guy I would be pissed.

I don't think she's cheating as of yet but it's on her radar. Very very slippery slope. When you bring it up to her though be prepared she's going to throw this back on you for snooping and not trusting her.


----------



## Yeswecan

Let's also see that Nathan is playing the put-out H. Marriage is bad. Left with the kids(again) as W is out of town. Oh whoa is me. This is activity looking to get the sympathetic ear of your W. Eventually he gets the attention(needy) and soon physical goal he is looking to gain with playing the lost H. 

How do I know this? My x-fiance did this to me. OM in his awful life....needed her..... And she told me that very thing.


----------



## x598

smoothieking said:


> My conclusion is that they are certainly work spouses - I don't happen to have one because where I work is 90% male. She has not lied about the going out for drinks, simply not disclosed to me. I also agree that he is teeing up the opportunity to move to the next level should the opportunity present itself in the future, but it's also a fine line for him as well testing the boundaries and being married himself. I tend to see this as an early/mild emotional affair that hasn't significantly progressed but has gone too far for my liking. I will certainly be discussing this with her in the coming weeks. On a neutral/positive note, there are some contextual things that I simply can't convey just by posting these texts. I know my wife very well and truly have confidence that there is nothing physical, and that she would not be the first one to cross that line. There are no other red flags in the relationship. She does need significant emotional support from me and that can be challenging at times being more of a nuts and bolts type of person than in tune with emotions, but that doesn't yield a free pass to get it from someone else. My needs in turn are more physical (holding, back rubs, etc.) so for me to get those needs fulfilled outside the marriage would be obvious violations. As mentioned, I will be confronting her about it soon, the key is in a manner that prevents defensiveness and portrays the impact to me of her actions. Thanks for everyone's inputs so far!


this response is about the most naïve thing you could have said.

you said "you know your wife well" ( as most other cheated on spouses say) but in reality YOU HAD NO IDEA this was going on, don't have a clue what she is capable of and all you know now is that YOU DONT know what her next move will be. confronting her will more then likely just drive this deeper underground and teach her to hide it better.

you said he is "teeing up to take it to the next level"....well I got news for you...she is playing on the same course and knows dam well what se is up to. she is just as culpable as he is. This aint no predatory relationship, your wife is a 100% willing participant and deserves the same level of treatment he does.

"she has not lied about going for drinks, just not disclosed it" LMFAO.....sorry dude that is a LIE. if it was innocent there is no need to hide by "not disclosing". its called a lie by omission.

I agree this PROBABLY hasn't gone physical YET.....for no other reason then opportunity hasn't presented itself. and it will if you just give it time.

by being weak and "nicely" confronting your wife.....all she is gonna do is get mad you "invaded her privacy"...then lie and down-play the nature of the relationship, blame you for all sort of little BS and blow it up and over-amplify them into things they really weren't...all to get you off her back and carry on the dopamine high this affair is giving her.

listen to the other people here who are telling you how to deal with this. because if you don't the end of your marriage is near.


----------



## StillSearching

FalCod said:


> I wouldn't automatically assume that someone that texts and talks frequently with an opposite sex friend has an inappropriate emotional relationship with them. I think that this stuff happens all the time and rarely results in affairs. I don't think anything in that exchange or the complete body of discussion is inappropriate.


Good lord man where you been since Dec 2017?
Under a rock?
This is surely over the line and ALWAYS is and/or ends in an affair.


----------



## Chaparral

Copy all of the texts. When you talk to her see how fast they disappear. 

Telling you she would be leaving late for work and actually getting drinks with another man is a date and she blatantly lied about it. 

All the men in his situation claim they are in a troubled marriage. But how do you know. Your wife told you right? Now that you have caught her lying, EVERYTHING she tells you has to be independently verified.

If she has an iPhone and you have a iPad you can get their messages in real time by syncing her phone to your equipment I think.

Every day this continues the bond gets stronger. When you talk to her, you better be ready to take no prisoners. Playing nice and doing the pick me dance NEVER works.


----------



## stro

You are going to hear a lot of people screaming at you that this is an emotional affair. Maybe it is but it sounds like your wife has a friend that she enjoys talking to.So many of the texts are work related with just sprinkles of personal info. Seems benign. 

There are extended times where she isn’t checking in or may not be responding to him. She doesn’t seem to urgent in her need to communicate with him. I think He seems a bit more needy than her. It’s possible he is kind of into her and she just enjoys his friendship, much like many male female friendships. If she were having any sort of affair, emotional or otherwise, I think it would have been evident in the text history. 

Yes it’s clear she enjoys this mans friendship. And that can be ok with appropriate boundaries. I have good friends/coworkers, that are women,who I have had coffee with or had meals with and who I text a lot. These are my friends and I enjoy their company just like men I am friends with. I maintain boundaries, I don’t complain about my wife to them, I don’t touch them, and I don’t rely on them as confidants. 

Most of the texts you posted are very similar to what I exchange with my female friends. I don’t delete texts and my wife is free to peruse my phone whenever she wants. To date I have been very successful in not falling in love with them. 

But I will say this and I have told my wife this. If she is ever uncomfortable with ANY female friend I talk to, text, or eat lunch with at work, all she has to do is say the word and it’s done. Those relationships exist with her approval, no exceptions. that’s a matter of respect for her and our marriage. I don’t ever want her to feel like she is on the outside of anything I am doing.


----------



## StillSearching

Yeah that's right men and women talk like this are just friends.
No one in these texts wants to bang the other.
I talk to chicks like this all the time. I just want to know how their day is going.
I truly care about their feelings. I'm a nice guy. I'll risk my marriage and the possibility of the husbands wrath, just to be friends with her. 
It's all worth it. Were just friends.
...........Please.


----------



## Stormguy2018

the guy said:


> It looks like an EA is progressing.
> 
> What I find interesting...later on the in the text history...it almost seems code like, were as early on it was general banter.
> 
> It could be something more...like "coffee" meaning...IDK "alone time" or "sex"? I mean early in the history it was more like a conversation and now it seems like they are both "in sync" with each other.


That's my take. Serious EA working up to a full blown PA.


----------



## FalCod

StillSearching said:


> Good lord man where you been since Dec 2017?
> Under a rock?
> This is surely over the line and ALWAYS is and/or ends in an affair.


I can only judge from my experience. Back when i had an SMS counter on my phone, I think the top five people I messaged with were female co-workers. I've yet to have an affair or even an interest in an affair with any of them. 

For some people, texting is their primary form of communication. It isn't how my wife and I communicate, so that's why there are far fewer texts to her. It isn't how I communicate with my kids much either. Well, I wouldn't be surprised if my son at college has moved up near the top of the list, but our texts are eloquent things like, "OK if I call you on Discord tonight", "Mind if I come home this weekend", or "I broke my keyboard, what should I do?"

Four of the women I chat with are part of my core friends group at work. We have a group chat. It's where we take conversations when they aren't work related or they are work related but we want to say things that we don't want on the company servers. While one of them was on long-term medical leave, we set up a bi-weekly night out at our favorite eater. I set it up on the night my wife usually works so that it wouldn't take away from our time together. She called it my "Girls Night Out". 

My point is that these are friends, not dating prospects. They prefer to communicate via text. We also talk a lot at work, often go to lunch together or go for walks at lunch. It is often a group but sometimes people drop out and it ends up with just two of us. I've never considered it at all inappropriate and my wife has never indicated any discomfort with it. 

My wife has full access to my phone. In fact, for convenience sake, I set one of her fingers up as one of the unlock fingers. It's not uncommon, when I can't get to my phone or I'm driving, for her to answer incoming texts for me. 

I don't think that this sort of behavior is an issue in a healthy relationship. Three of those four women are married and none of them have any problems with it nor do their husbands (all of whom I consider friends). I guess it depends on the couple.

I should also point out that, when one of the women was talking about different close friends and family members that would reflexively take her side or her husbands side in an argument, they all joked with me about the fact that there is not one single person that wouldn't take my wife's side if we argued. In fact, the single woman made the comment that if I ever split up with my wife, I'd lose ALL of my friends because everyone likes her more than me. So this is hardly a group of people that are a threat to my marriage.


----------



## StillSearching

Thu 11/29/18	Amy: Thinking of you!


----------



## FalCod

Stormguy2018 said:


> That's my take. Serious EA working up to a full blown PA.


But question becomes, what do you do about it? Let's assume that it is an EA. Do you send the texts to his wife? Now you risk an escalation that blows up both marriages. Is that what the OP wants?

If you do nothing, you stand a strong risk of losing your wife to an affair.

What's the OP's relationship with his wife? What does he want. If this was me and my wife, I'd tell her that I got nervous about her relationship and read the texts. Reading them made me more uncomfortable. I'd like to understand her feelings and to discuss where we should go with this. My focus would be on fixing the problems in our marriage that leave her unfulfilled and seeking outside support. We could set boundaries on outside friendships that seem mutually acceptable. If she's game, we give it a go and try to make it work. If she's not, well, I tried to do the right thing and move on.

Yes, there is a risk that she'd lie and take the "affair" underground. That's a risk no matter what. Unless you are ready to toss away your marriage, I think he should try to work with this wife on resolving this.


----------



## personofinterest

She is definitely too chummy. She enjoys the texts way too much. It is too personal. Even if it is "mild," I call it an emotional affair. It needs to stop NOW.

As for code words and assumptions of banging, those are unsubstantiated and projection at this point.

I'd copy all the correspondence, then I'd tell her, "Look, this is obviously over the line. You would NEVER be okay with me being this chummy with a woman. It stops now. Professional group contact only. I will not share you." No emotion, no polygraphs and DNA tests.

Just a calm boundary. Then watch.


----------



## Tasorundo

StillSearching said:


> Thu 11/29/18	Amy: Thinking of you!


This is not something I have ever said to a person I was not related to or sweet on. To just send that text without context is a bad sign.

Even in context, I am struggling to find a context where it would not be extremely troubling.


----------



## Steelman

Definitely way too much, WAY too much, but nothing horrible yet. I'd nip it. I don't understand how any married person can carry this type of thing on and think its ok.


----------



## jsmart

This overly friendly work relationship is something that's at the cusp of becoming an out in the open EA. The missing piece is for OM to reveal he has feelings for her, then all of a sudden your wife will be thrown for a loop. 

I've read HUNDREDS of threads from WWs, many of which explain that they were not even attracted to their AP until he told her he had feelings for her. Many of these were to a guy that was not attractive, older, or out of shape. In the words of the WW, the AP was not the equal of her BH but the WW was still thrown. 

Each one of them dove deeply into a full sexual PA that ended after their OM had a D day. Most of the time, the WW was thrown under the bus or the OM tried to slowly fade away but the WW continued to pine away for their AP and would have jumped at the chance to bust up their family to run off with him.

I strongly suggest a sensitive confrontation that explains that the friendship is inappropriate, makes you feel like you're competing for her attention. You can expect her to come at you for invading her privacy and being controlling but you must hold your ground. 

I also recommend that you insist on her reading "Not Just Friends" by Shirly Glass.


----------



## alte Dame

Look, this IS a full-scale EA (at least). It already hits all the marks for it. The OM has gradually become her focus, while you are gradually backgrounded in her mind. This is a very steep, slippery slope. If you don't start wrapping your mind around what is really happening - which is that your W, at the very least, has a friendship with another man that she lies by omission about, and is possibly in deeper emotionally, if not physically - you will find yourself in the plan B position. This happens quickly. Really quickly. Our minds, juiced up with feel-good relationship hormones, focus on the new interest and fade out the old one.

He's doing what cheaters do - he's complaining about his wife and saying that it's a lot to 'unpack.' You can bet that they've sat over their countless coffees and drinks discussing his complaints about his wife.

You need to act now. You really do. And when she says it's 'just friends,' don't take that at face value. You need to follow up with investigation.

And bottom line needs to be 'I don't care if you think he's just a friend. I won't have him in my marriage, so make a choice.'


----------



## niceguy47460

I would be very concerned . there is alot of when are we cutting out . are you at work . alot of are we gokng for coffee are we going for walk and alot of meeting . coffee and walks could meen something else . if it hasn't got physical i would be very surprised . and the i miss you and the i was thinking about you big red flags


----------



## ABHale

smoothieking said:


> My first red flag went up when that Saturday text came in a couple of months ago about some email the assistant dean sent out. It seemed wierd to get a text about that on a Saturday. I have some small audio devices that i've been using in the car for a couple of months, so far nothing. They have only talked on the phone a time or two per the phone bill, one of those recent times she mentioned during an unrelated conversation about her day that day. The phone text QTY and phone bill text QTY align, at least for the last couple of months I have access to, so there doesn't seem to be anything deleted. I don't think this is a full scale EA going on but the dialog here has helped affirm that it is certainly inappropriate, and left alone could go to far at some point. I'm mostly pissed at the amount of time this person gets, and when she's home she exhausted for work and 1hr commute both ways, I feel like I get the "**** hours" of the relation ship. There are no other changes in terms of attire/makeup/hours/schedules, everything is the same as years ago.
> I will keep audio monitoring at home and car, don't have a good way to monitor at work based on the type of bag she uses. I also prefer to hold the card of sending the text history to his spouse -- if the conversation with my wife goes poorly when I bring it up, I can use that as leverage to validate if someone else that is impacted by this behavior thinks it is inappropriate.


Do not use the texting as leverage. If the conversation goes poorly just take the info to the OM’s wife. Do not warn your wife about it. That will give her time to inform the OM and he can tell his wife some crazy nut is going to try and get a hold of you. 

I would give the text messages to the OM’s wife right before you talk with your wife.


----------



## niceguy47460

The part where one of them was worried about giving the other one the flue caught my eye


----------



## re16

FalCod said:


> But question becomes, what do you do about it? Let's assume that it is an EA. Do you send the texts to his wife? Now you risk an escalation that blows up both marriages. Is that what the OP wants?
> 
> If you do nothing, you stand a strong risk of losing your wife to an affair.
> 
> 
> Yes, there is a risk that she'd lie and take the "affair" underground. That's a risk no matter what. Unless you are ready to toss away your marriage, I think he should try to work with this wife on resolving this.


I agree with this, but I would watch a little closer for some amount of time to see if there isn't more already happening. You don't want to move forward unless you are confident you know what is happening.


----------



## re16

Were those all the texts between them? There appear to be some strange date gaps.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

farsidejunky said:


> O
> *
> That said, if I were in your shoes, I would tell her she is more than welcome to continue such behavior, but not as my wife.
> *
> As often as modern society likes to shame men...especially in academic circles...there are times where getting in touch with your inner caveman is necessary. This is one such time.


THIS! Dont get into a long, drawn out arguement with her on this, because YOU are the one in the right. State what Farside wrote here and be done. 




smoothieking said:


> I also prefer to hold the card of sending the text history to his spouse -- if the conversation with my wife goes poorly when I bring it up, I can use that as leverage to validate if someone else that is impacted by this behavior thinks it is inappropriate.


Dont let her know you have this. If the conversation goes badly, SEND IT TO THE WIFE. Do NOT tip your hand.


----------



## jsmart

The gaps in dates could be deleted text. If that’s the case , now you have a wife who’s aware that she’s being inappropriate. 

My concern is what you can’t read. There coffee and more importantly walks. What is said there can be much worse. 

The number one way a potential MM uses to get a connection with the potential AP is to talk about how he’s not happy in his marriage. Most of that would be spoken. 

If your wife starts talking about your shortcomings, he will start to add In by describing how he does things. If she says you don’t help around the house, he’ll talk about all the chores he does. If you don’t help with kids enough, he’ll be some super dad. You’re not handy, he’ll be like one of the property brothers. 

The point is he will build himself up and join in the tearing you down. Then your wife will use her imagination to believe he’s some awesome catch and that you’re not worthy of her.


----------



## sa58

The texts are just part of the issue here. Drinks, coffee, and
they work together is part of this also. During drinks are they
talking about work or marriages ? You see the texts but can not
hear what they say together. Your wife may need emotional 
attention a lot. He may be a predator listening and playing along.
Getting closer and closer to his prey, her. Coworkers may even 
suspect something. I as well as others here have seen this happen
to many times. She may think it is just being friendly, I bet he sees
it as something else. 

If she didn't tell you about their date ( drinks ) what else has she not
told you ? She is going to get angry at you !! But which is better ?
Your marriage suffering and maybe her career ruined ? Maybe two 
families ruined. Or her just getting upset ? 

Some predators prey upon married women.
They have a family and job to lose. So they 
can break it off at any time , nobody will say
anything. They will not want to lose everything
Unless they get caught. All of us including you
see where this is going. If it hasn't already. You 
can stop it. Don't let this happen to your wife, you
and your family!!!

In my much younger days before I was married
I knew a predator who often bragged about dating
married women. He was low life scum of the earth
to all of us. This guy sounds like the type.


----------



## Talker67

personofinterest said:


> She is definitely too chummy. She enjoys the texts way too much. It is too personal. Even if it is "mild," I call it an emotional affair. It needs to stop NOW.
> .


i agree, she is enjoying getting texts from this guy. She likes the attention he gives her. Maybe she fantasizes about him pursuing her.

So...i think there is a two pronged solution here....
1) get the guy to stop. Maybe contacting his wife with these texts is a good idea..

2) you need to up your game with your wife. She is fascinated by these texts because she forgot how it felt to be pursued. Now all of a sudden here is some guy pursuing her...she likes this NEW feeling...and wants to explore it further. She would not be having this "new feeling" if you had kept up courting her, making her feel special, dating her, exploring new sexual things, going on adventures.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

jsmart said:


> The gaps in dates could be deleted text. If that’s the case , now you have a wife who’s aware that she’s being inappropriate.
> 
> My concern is what you can’t read. There coffee and more importantly walks. What is said there can be much worse.
> 
> The number one way a potential MM uses to get a connection with the potential AP is to talk about how he’s not happy in his marriage. Most of that would be spoken.
> 
> If your wife starts talking about your shortcomings, he will start to add In by describing how he does things. If she says you don’t help around the house, he’ll talk about all the chores he does. If you don’t help with kids enough, he’ll be some super dad. You’re not handy, he’ll be like one of the property brothers.
> 
> The point is he will build himself up and join in the tearing you down. Then your wife will use her imagination to believe he’s some awesome catch and that you’re not worthy of her.


This exactly. Without question. 

And the MM will get what he wants, what he thinks will be a trouble free sex partner, then "make up with his own wife" and break with your W.

It's a story as old as time. Only now, in the xtronic age, they get exposed more often.

But the damage will have been done to your marriage, whatever happens in the long run.

Put an end to it. 

If she doesn't want to stop, that's telling too.

It's saying she may be checked out from you marriage. 

But whatever happens you'll be best served by pricking this particular balloon.


----------



## Yeswecan

FalCod said:


> I can only judge from my experience. Back when i had an SMS counter on my phone, I think the top five people I messaged with were female co-workers. I've yet to have an affair or even an interest in an affair with any of them.
> 
> For some people, texting is their primary form of communication. It isn't how my wife and I communicate, so that's why there are far fewer texts to her. It isn't how I communicate with my kids much either. Well, I wouldn't be surprised if my son at college has moved up near the top of the list, but our texts are eloquent things like, "OK if I call you on Discord tonight", "Mind if I come home this weekend", or "I broke my keyboard, what should I do?"
> 
> Four of the women I chat with are part of my core friends group at work. We have a group chat. It's where we take conversations when they aren't work related or they are work related but we want to say things that we don't want on the company servers. While one of them was on long-term medical leave, we set up a bi-weekly night out at our favorite eater. I set it up on the night my wife usually works so that it wouldn't take away from our time together. She called it my "Girls Night Out".
> 
> My point is that these are friends, not dating prospects. They prefer to communicate via text. We also talk a lot at work, often go to lunch together or go for walks at lunch. It is often a group but sometimes people drop out and it ends up with just two of us. I've never considered it at all inappropriate and my wife has never indicated any discomfort with it.
> 
> My wife has full access to my phone. In fact, for convenience sake, I set one of her fingers up as one of the unlock fingers. It's not uncommon, when I can't get to my phone or I'm driving, for her to answer incoming texts for me.
> 
> I don't think that this sort of behavior is an issue in a healthy relationship. Three of those four women are married and none of them have any problems with it nor do their husbands (all of whom I consider friends). I guess it depends on the couple.
> 
> I should also point out that, when one of the women was talking about different close friends and family members that would reflexively take her side or her husbands side in an argument, they all joked with me about the fact that there is not one single person that wouldn't take my wife's side if we argued. In fact, the single woman made the comment that if I ever split up with my wife, I'd lose ALL of my friends because everyone likes her more than me. So this is hardly a group of people that are a threat to my marriage.


Sorry man, this ain't a group chat. Further, went out for drinks but simply advised she would be late from the office. Did she say late from the bar with Nathan? Why no because she knew it would be a problem. It was hidden. Further, the texts are all hours of the day and weekend from the looks of it. Dude, this guy is working ops W. And Nathan "Thinking of you!" Really? Just what is Nathan thinking? The coffee tastes better when she is around?


----------



## sa58

The predator lures his prey into the
darkness with sweet promises and lies.

Once fully consumed only a hollow 
shell of their former life remains.

This guy is a predator, she is the prey.


----------



## bandit.45

She is letting you see what she wants you to see, and letting you know what she wants you to know. 

Trust your gut. Your gut is screaming at you. We can all hear it through our computer screens. 

Your gut never lies....ever.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Read what I've posted below, it's a quote from another thread where a player explains how he picks up married women. When you confront you might want to show it to your wife, but cut out any references to TAM so she doesn't find your thread.



Q tip said:


> It begins...
> 
> https://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/209754-standard-evidence-post.html
> 
> Sounds like she's at least getting into an EA. Perhaps OM is playing her. Don't worry about OM, he has no vows to you. Your W does.
> 
> Read around, learn about boundaries. She needs to understand boundaries and the slippery slope she's on. She may be innocent or not..
> 
> Example. Here is a small example of what pick up artists (PUA) do. A PUA can be married or single.
> 
> I've copied this from another user, don't recall who..
> 
> Findingmyway was a player, I don't know if he comes on here much now, but he did leave a point of view thread although I can't find it. He posted something similar to me, here it is.:
> ***********************************************
> 
> My perspective- as a serial cheat. Before I start, I'm no GQ model look alike and I'm not wealthy.
> 
> For me, it was always about extra sex. The thrill of the chase and ego boost was a plus, but I just wanted more sex than my wife did. I always loved my wife and certainly never ever wanted to leave her or lose her. Especially not over someone else's wayward wife.
> 
> I had a simple method. I used it because it worked. I targeted married women. I figured they were safer for several important reasons.
> 1- Less likely to be sleeping around with random guys (STDs).
> 2- Less likely to pull the crazy girlfriend BS and call my wife.
> 3- In case of an unwanted pregnancy, I had a built in schmuck to pay the tab and would have claimed to have had a vasectomy.
> 
> The most important part of being a player is to hide it. I started with shy looks making certain I'd get caught and then doing my best to look embarrassed. If she started to come around more or dress sexier then I'd try a safe compliment. If she called me on my BS (yes, it happened) I simply acted highly offended. After all, I'm a married family man. That usually got me an apology. A few really smart ones just avoided me altogether.
> 
> If she accepted the compliment, I knew I had a chance. I never ever wasted time with someone that I didn't want to bed. If the compliment was successful, I simply followed with more as time permitted and just let things develop. Who knew where it would go? When she would speak with me about her frustrations with her husband (they always complained about their husband) I used that to my advantage. If they complained that he didn't do enough with the kids, I was dad of the year. If he didn't help out around the house, I did everything at home so my wife didn't have to. Yes, it was complete BS, but so what. My job was to make them feel special, pretty and needed and to paint the fantasy. After all, my goal was not conversation or friendship. I wanted to score.
> 
> Once things progressed and I had to keep it intense unless it was simply a once and done kind of thing. I would do that by pushing her boundaries for sex. Anal, public hook-up whatever. Keep in mind, I'm in it for the sex so I tried for everything I liked and heard more than once statements like... I never even let my husband do that. That was usually with anal, but sometimes public hook-ups also.
> 
> I certainly didn't want to be paying for hotel rooms out my pocket. If she wanted to pay, that was fine. Otherwise, we could hook-up anywhere, it didn't matter to me.
> 
> I always advised them to keep the secret between us, because it was so special. Actually, I didn't want to get busted. If they got busted, and some did. That was their tough crap to deal with. I certainly never vowed to love/honor/cherish them.
> 
> As I look back, I'm stunned at how easy it was and how many fell for my crap. I had some that would try to pull away and I'd feed them the star crossed lovers BS, you know... kept apart by the cruel hand of fate. That worked like magic to seal the deal. I also used things like I think my wife may have cheated on me. Then I'd work in how I got tested for STDs and it was clear and somehow manage to mention my vasectomy (never had one). Understand? I'm safe, you won't catch anything if you sleep with me and I won't get you pregnant. That was the message.
> 
> The one thing that sent me running was the fear of getting caught and sometimes I just wanted a quick bang and wasn't in it for a couple of months of an affair. I'm still also amazed by how many didn't see through my crap either. They didn't have to deal with the day to day stresses that adults face with me (finances, mortgages, car payments, child care, time commitments, etc.). With me, it was just fun and sex. The poor bastard at home didn't have a chance once the play was in motion. It also helped me to see him as a douche-bag when his wife whined about him for whatever reason.
> 
> I work with a woman that has lost everything over an affair with me. The house, husband, family, etc. It's difficult to see. She hates me now, but I never vowed anything to her or forced her to do anything. That's her tough crap. Her kids are in therapy, their grades tanked and she's struggling financially and the kids blame her, etc. Honestly, I wish she'd quit so I didn't have to see her every freaking day.
> 
> 
> I do know a few like me that I consider even worse. They brag and laugh about getting wayward wives to do things and try to get email or text proof to show off. It's pretty easy, just tell her how much he liked doing X with her last night and let her respond. Then they had proof to brag about and trade notes. I didn't do that. I just wanted the sex and avoided the women they talked about. I liked to find the ones who would seem to be the last to ever do anything like this. Goes back to my 3 reasons.
> 
> I never flirted with a married woman unless I wanted in her pants. Plain and simple, you do have to hide it so they don't see it coming, but it's really that basic. Other players use different methods, but we all use what works and modify sometimes if we're not progressing to try a different angle. Not all women are the same, and sometimes deviations are required if she'll let you in her pants.
> 
> It was never about love, just sex. I sold the fantasy, yes. But that is all it ever was. A fair trade. They were adults and quite frankly should have known better. Am I a predator, I certainly never thought so and I certainly never thought about what would happen to them when we were done. Yes, all my affairs ended. Most stayed married to their H they *****ed about and screwed around on. Therefore, he must not have been that bad. People just get caught up with unrealistic expectations on life I think. For goodness sake, Prince charming is only charming because he wants a blow job.
> 
> Before I close, I'll say this as well. An engaged woman would have worked for me also, but I never found one that would go for me. Also, newly married women are much harder to get. I had the best luck with women who had been married for at least several years, throw a kid or two in the mix and they were usually more susceptible to being chased.
> 
> It was a fair trade. Attention and compliments for sex.


----------



## SunCMars

These two, yes these two cooing pigeons.

They are a pair made in heaven. They are a good match.

A match made in Heaven.

A Heaven made, portrayed, betrayed by Hollywood.

They are work spouses, louses at homework.





[THM]- KB


----------



## SunCMars

alte Dame said:


> Look, this IS a full-scale EA (at least). It already hits all the marks for it. The OM has gradually become her focus, while you are gradually backgrounded in her mind. This is a very steep, slippery slope. If you don't start wrapping your mind around what is really happening - which is that your W, at the very least, has a friendship with another man that she lies by omission about, and is possibly in deeper emotionally, if not physically - you will find yourself in the plan B position. This happens quickly. Really quickly. Our minds, juiced up with feel-good relationship hormones, focus on the new interest and fade out the old one.
> 
> He's doing what cheaters do - he's complaining about his wife and saying that it's a lot to 'unpack.' You can bet that they've sat over their countless coffees and drinks discussing his complaints about his wife.
> 
> You need to act now. You really do. And when she says it's 'just friends,' don't take that at face value. You need to follow up with investigation.
> 
> And bottom line needs to be 'I don't care if you think he's just a friend. I won't have him in my marriage, so make a choice.'


This is a really good perspective.

I am starting to go over to dark side of this thread. Admitting the possibilities, um'....
...............................................................................................

Oh, welcome back Carter!
Long time no hear.

In your absence, I could not find anyone to grade my papers!

My edit pen rolls its eyes, then rolls away from me.


----------



## Satisfied Mind

Smoothieking, it doesn't seem like this has gone physical, but I would not be okay with this situation for at least the following reasons:



Your wife knows (at least subconsciously) that this guy is into her and she clearly enjoys and is flattered by that attention. Regardless of whether she intends to reciprocate, she is encouraging his pursuit.
Daily/weekly lunches, walks and coffee dates with another man, drinking together, etc. This is essentially dating, and she's getting at least one of her love languages met from another guy.
She's not being forthcoming with you about what's going on. This is a breach of the trust in your marriage and prioritizing her relationship with this guy over your marriage.

If this were my wife, I would confront her without revealing that I had seen these texts. I would remind her that she would not be okay with the situation if the roles were reversed, and I would call her out on her lack of transparency about it. I also would point out that the amount of energy and consideration that she invests in this guy, while I get her leftovers at the end of the day isn't fair to me and I won't accept that. I would caution her that if she continues with the status quo, I won't be around to find out where it goes with this guy. That's not a threat, I simply have too much respect for myself to remain in that position.

She'll likely get defensive, and immediately say they're just friends. I would respond that it doesn't matter what her intentions were or whether anything ever happened, what matters is how it looks and feels to me, and that no other person should be allowed to come between us in our marriage. If she's willing to pick her friendship with this guy over our marriage, I know exactly where I stand.

Then I would use this as an opportunity to talk about what we both agree are appropriate boundaries for working relationships with the opposite sex, what we can do to build in accountability to each other on that front, and what specifically needs to happen with this other guy.

Following those conversations, I would continue to monitor as needed, and I would step up my efforts to date my wife. I'm not suggesting you try to change who you are, but if you can be more emotionally available and connected, based on my own experience, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised how she responds to you and you'll find your efforts rewarding.


----------



## MAJDEATH

Bottom line OP: do you think she would cross the "exposing or touching" boundary? If you think yes, time to cut it off or reconsider your marital status. If no, let her continue on and monitor. It's been my experience if the ladies are talking about the guy, they are not intimate. If she shuts up about him, it's game over.


----------



## alte Dame

SunCMars said:


> Oh, welcome back Carter!
> Long time no hear.
> 
> In your absence, I could not find anyone to grade my papers!
> 
> My edit pen rolls its eyes, then rolls away from me.


short t/j:

That's 'Kotter' to you, pal!

LOL - my red pen is at the ready


----------



## smoothieking

thanks for all of the posts. I am going to continue a bit of monitoring over the next week or two. As noted in my original post, we've had our challenges and one of those was in Feb 2019 and we decided to seek out some counseling to improve communication. We've done a few sessions and have made significant progress, but of course a long way to go. None of this has been discussed of course as we have not had a session since I started digging this deep. We have 4 sessions coming up this month, and based on how the monitoring goes, I will likely confront her a day or two before the session and then introduce it there, or schedule an individual session with counselor which we've discussed doing for both of us. There are some wide ranging assessments in the feedback here, at the end of the day I really don't know whats going on because I'm not there, but based on what I see/hear this is still an early EA, not PA. I'm not acknowledging that early EA is OK by any means, but can be reversed. Reading all of this today has been a bit of an emotional whirlwind, trying to stay realistic about what could be going on. Tonight when she came home, she mentioned that another co-worker told her that her name is on a short list for a position with OM's Boss, she would be Sr. to him in position, and she said "I would be working with Nathan more, which I would like a lot". This killed me, it was hard to look at her during dinner and thankfully our toddler is pretty entertaining. Another piece of info I did not mention before is that she is actively trying to leave job that is a 1hr commute and work locally, or even stay at home. She acknowkedges the job is putting severe strain on our relatinonship. Her manager is ****ty, along with many of the people she works with. It's a toxic environment, I've seen and hear evidence of that to know it's true. WHen she mentioned this job working with Nathan, I simply indicated, well that isn't going to work because its not part of your exit strategy there. She agreed. Given that we have the counselor sessions coming up, I think that is my advocate for disolving this situation. Just sucks though, i know I'd be on the spear if I was doing this with a female co-worker that was attractive.


----------



## faithfulman

@smoothieking - Don't think looks are what counts. 

You'd be on the spear if you were behaving like that with a coworker who was butt-ugly.

So go ahead and put her on the spear. 

If it were me, I would get a matching iDevice as mentioned above and put it on the same Apple ID login as her phone to monitor her messages in real time.

If you do that, please make sure you have her device in hand because there is an alert on all associated devices every time a new device is added.

Then turn off all notifications on the spy device. 

Simultaneously, I would run phone recovery software on her device. Use Fonelab, Dr. Fone sucks. 

You'll recover deleted texts, photos, video, cheater app messages, and more if there are any. 

That way, you'll know much better what you're dealing with.


----------



## alte Dame

It's fine to approach this in MC, but before you do that you should do your homework about the possible directions the MC session could go in. 

Get ready to hear that you are paranoid or controlling, or that the 'just friends' is enough to know and that you can't tell her what friends to have, or that you have to determine what needs of hers you are not meeting to make her seek out her 'friend,' or that the counselor sees the marriage as the patient, not you.

These are all possibilities in MC sessions, so you shouldn't be surprised. Remember that these are different perspectives and that you don't have to agree. For me, the key is to be firm and confident in your own opinion about what is going on and what your boundaries are. You are reasonable. Always remember that.

At the same time, the counselor could be schooled in infidelity in general and EA's in particular, and actually agree with you. Sometimes that happens.

Perhaps you should touch base here before your session to see what people in this forum would advise as potential responses.


----------



## Marc878

smoothieking said:


> thanks for all of the posts. I am going to continue a bit of monitoring over the next week or two. As noted in my original post, we've had our challenges and one of those was in Feb 2019 and we decided to seek out some counseling to improve communication. We've done a few sessions and have made significant progress, but of course a long way to go. None of this has been discussed of course as we have not had a session since I started digging this deep. We have 4 sessions coming up this month, and based on how the monitoring goes, I will likely confront her a day or two before the session and then introduce it there, or schedule an individual session with counselor which we've discussed doing for both of us. There are some wide ranging assessments in the feedback here, at the end of the day I really don't know whats going on because I'm not there, but based on what I see/hear this is still an early EA, not PA. I'm not acknowledging that early EA is OK by any means, but can be reversed. Reading all of this today has been a bit of an emotional whirlwind, trying to stay realistic about what could be going on. Tonight when she came home, she mentioned that another co-worker told her that her name is on a short list for a position with OM's Boss, she would be Sr. to him in position, and she said "I would be working with Nathan more, which I would like a lot". This killed me, it was hard to look at her during dinner and thankfully our toddler is pretty entertaining. Another piece of info I did not mention before is that she is actively trying to leave job that is a 1hr commute and work locally, or even stay at home. She acknowkedges the job is putting severe strain on our relatinonship. Her manager is ****ty, along with many of the people she works with. It's a toxic environment, I've seen and hear evidence of that to know it's true. WHen she mentioned this job working with Nathan, I simply indicated, well that isn't going to work because its not part of your exit strategy there. She agreed. *Given that we have the counselor sessions coming up, I think that is my advocate for disolving this situation. Just sucks though, i know I'd be on the spear if I was doing this with a female co-worker that was attractive.*


Letting a councilor try and solve this for you is a weak move. You need to stand up and do it yourself. MC's can be notorious rugsweepers or maybe even blame you for it. Her actions were not caused by you. Do not take any blame for her actions. As you stated if the shoe were on the other foot she wouldn't accept it.


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## Marc878

You seem to be a bit hesitant about confrontation. Kicking the can down the road for another couple weeks is not going to get you a thing. You know enough already.

You have another man wedging his way into your marriage. I've seen EA's start with just a correct sentence at an advantageous time. 

If you let your fear guide you here you lose. It sounds like you're affraid of making her mad?

I would pull all the phone records to back up what you're seeing. 

I think you need to wake up.


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## SunCMars

If you wait for the MC to settle this, you may be disappointed.

Unless, unless you pull out the 1000 texts.

Don't do that in the counseling session. Just mention that she communicates more with Nathan than you.

..................................................................................................................................................

I would settle this at home. She 'might' be more open?

She just admitted that she is neglecting the marriage. Why is this?

Since she still thinks you are in the dark, relative to her bestie, maybe she feels guilty.

Does she suspect something? Maybe she is fishing? 
I suspect she threw out his name to test your reaction.

If so, she knows she is in the wrong. Ya think?

Hmm?

Wait some more before telling her that you know a lot more about their friendship.

Very soon tell her, "I have one wife, you'.

"You have two husbands, you have me and you also have a work husband, and it is Nathan, is this not true?"

Let her rattle on, defend herself and him. Do not walk away at first. Listen to her words.
Keep calm.

SAY NOTHING after uttering the 'work husband' phrase. After a minute or so, get up and leave the house.

Silence is a powerful tool.

Leaving, forces her to stew in her own juices.

Talking, gives up your feelings and your game.

Say nothing, be gone for a few hours, answer not her texts.


Silence works much, much better than arguing.
She just has not been called out on it before.
Maybe, not strongly enough.

Be strong, be silent. Give her cold looks.






[THM]- Nemesis


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## Marc878

smoothieking said:


> thanks for all of the posts. I am going to continue a bit of monitoring over the next week or two. As noted in my original post, we've had our challenges and one of those was in Feb 2019 and we decided to seek out some counseling to improve communication.
> 
> You know enough.
> 
> We've done a few sessions and have made significant progress, but of course a long way to go. None of this has been discussed of course as we have not had a session since I started digging this deep. We have 4 sessions coming up this month, and based on how the monitoring goes, I will likely confront her a day or two before the session and then introduce it there, or schedule an individual session with counselor which we've discussed doing for both of us.
> 
> You should download and read "No More Mr Nice Guy" free pdf download and it's short.
> 
> There are some wide ranging assessments in the feedback here, at the end of the day I really don't know whats going on because I'm not there, but based on what I see/hear this is still an early EA, not PA. I'm not acknowledging that early EA is OK by any means, but can be reversed. Reading all of this today has been a bit of an emotional whirlwind, trying to stay realistic about what could be going on.
> 
> You know enough to know it's headed in the wrong direction plus you should have data/proof. Don't fiddle around while Rome burns to the ground.
> 
> Tonight when she came home, she mentioned that another co-worker told her that her name is on a short list for a position with OM's Boss, she would be Sr. to him in position, and she said* "I would be working with Nathan more, which I would like a lot". This killed me, it was hard to look at her during dinner and thankfully our toddler is pretty entertaining.*
> 
> The only one that can keep you in limbo is yourself. The worst thing you can do in these situations is nothing. Better take a deep look at what you're affraid of here.
> 
> Another piece of info I did not mention before is that she is actively trying to leave job that is a 1hr commute and work locally, or even stay at home. She acknowkedges the job is putting severe strain on our relatinonship. Her manager is ****ty, along with many of the people she works with. It's a toxic environment, I've seen and hear evidence of that to know it's true. WHen she mentioned this job working with Nathan, I simply indicated, well that isn't going to work because its not part of your exit strategy there. She agreed. Given that we have the counselor sessions coming up, I think that is my advocate for disolving this situation. Just sucks though, i know I'd be on the spear if I was doing this with a female co-worker that was attractive.


It seems like you want to sit back and hope it'll just go away. It won't it'll just get worse and if you don't act and have to deal with far worse you'll wish you had.

This is your life, wife and marriage that another guy is moving in on. Letting a Mr Nice Guy attitude guide you now will put you where you don't want to be.

Take a hard look at what you're waiting around for?


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## Marc878

MC's are not gods. Some are good and some are bad. Some cause more damage than help.

Beware!!!!! They work for you so if they take a direction you know is wrong call em out on it.

It's your dime


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## Chaparral

I don’t know what the odds are of getting a good counselor are, but the horror stories of getting a politically correct goof ball stand out much more than the ones that help. Beware. You should download the two books listed below now. Forewarned is fore armed.

Since first becoming suspicious, you have been far to patient. She’s now even excited about working closely with her new “husband”. I feel like you’re dangling the bait in front of her and hoping for a miracle.

The reactions you’re getting here are the results of thousands and thousands of threads. Cheaters follow a “script” and we’re telling you what is going on. Speed is your friend. It’s better to stop a train wreck than clean one up.


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## manwithnoname

The absence of incriminating PA evidence and the content of the texts does not rule out a PA.

"drinks" can be sex. "coffee" can be sex.

Recovery of any deleted texts is paramount.

This needs to be done before any discussions/confrontation etc.


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## Chaparral

You should have told us you were already to the point of counseling.

When it’s your first turn to speak you should be saying “ my wife has lied to me about going out for drinks with another man. She also goes on walks with him and does lunches with him and keeps all this hidden from me. They communicate regularly about their marital problems and I see this at minimum as an emotional affair if not more.”

With what you’ve already written and now adding “communication problems,” and a new closer working relationship that she is so happy about, this hole seems even deeper. You need to to pull this band aid off quickly.


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## farsidejunky

SK:

Do not depend on MC to get your wife to "see it your way". 

The only thing that wakes waywards up are consequences...bringing reality to their fantasy land.

The moment you show the sheer number of texts they are exchanging (let alone content) to this other guy's wife...watch the SHTF.

You are going to have to find your inner caveman.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## sa58

smoothieking said:


> thanks for all of the posts. I am going to continue a bit of monitoring over the next week or two. As noted in my original post, we've had our challenges and one of those was in Feb 2019 and we decided to seek out some counseling to improve communication. We've done a few sessions and have made significant progress, but of course a long way to go. None of this has been discussed of course as we have not had a session since I started digging this deep. We have 4 sessions coming up this month, and based on how the monitoring goes, I will likely confront her a day or two before the session and then introduce it there, or schedule an individual session with counselor which we've discussed doing for both of us. There are some wide ranging assessments in the feedback here, at the end of the day I really don't know whats going on because I'm not there, but based on what I see/hear this is still an early EA, not PA. I'm not acknowledging that early EA is OK by any means, but can be reversed. Reading all of this today has been a bit of an emotional whirlwind, trying to stay realistic about what could be going on. Tonight when she came home, she mentioned that another co-worker told her that her name is on a short list for a position with OM's Boss, she would be Sr. to him in position, and she said "I would be working with Nathan more, which I would like a lot". This killed me, it was hard to look at her during dinner and thankfully our toddler is pretty entertaining. Another piece of info I did not mention before is that she is actively trying to leave job that is a 1hr commute and work locally, or even stay at home. She acknowkedges the job is putting severe strain on our relatinonship. Her manager is ****ty, along with many of the people she works with. It's a toxic environment, I've seen and hear evidence of that to know it's true. WHen she mentioned this job working with Nathan, I simply indicated, well that isn't going to work because its not part of your exit strategy there. She agreed. Given that we have the counselor sessions coming up, I think that is my advocate for disolving this situation. Just sucks though, i know I'd be on the spear if I was doing this with a female co-worker that was attractive.


You are in counseling already because of communication issues. That means she is
communicating with him. She may say things like he listens to me and you don't !!
That is exactly what a predator would do, listen and agree with her. Getting closer
and closer to her. " I would be working with Nathan more, which I would like a lot "
Really said that to you, knowing drinks and coffee dates and everything else. I would 
have communicated my feelings about Nathan right then and there. Don't be surprised 
if she decides to stay at her current job now. Toxic environment, manager is bad, and 
people she works with except for Nathan her confidant. People she works with probably
see what is going on with her and Nathan. We all do!!

She would be OM boss and more money will be her reasons for staying, she will tell 
you this soon. If she is planning on leaving then I wonder why you are not confronting 
her about your concerns? MC is not going to solve this, only you can by telling her. 
If you did this you would be " On the spear " why not her ?

Her job and Nathan are putting a strain on your relationship !! You can put a stop to
both of them! If you continue to monitor the situation and find out she lied again.
Maybe someplace with Nathan, what then ? If she is really concerned about saving
your relationship, then she should be willing to stop with Nathan. She is leaving and 
talks about an exit plan but probably will stay because of Nathan. Don't be surprised
when she tells you this. 

I really think you should discuss this with Nathans wife, she has a right to know.
She needs to decide if something is going on or not, its her life also. i bet she 
will stop him from continuing to go out for drinks with another woman. You don't 
even have to tell your wife you did this. You will know when she becomes upset
because Nathan's wife talked to him.

We all have seen this happen to many times. This Nathan thing is
progressing further and further. Don't tolerate it anymore. It doesn't
end well if you wait.


----------



## jsmart

Even though this appears to have not yet gone PA and is at the mild EA stage, it already has been impacting your marriage. She's already has feelings for this guy but her hamster brain is rationalizing it as just slightly inappropriate but acceptable behavior because nothing has happened and no feelings were officially revealed. But make no mistake about it, she's detaching from you. It's the reason you had to go to MC. 


These affairs build slowly. From just friends to slightly inappropriate to more blatantly inappropriate but then it reaches a point when the man reveals his feelings for the woman, then it gets explosive. QUICKLY. The ramp up from the guy revealing he has feelings for her and the 1st intimate kiss can take a few weeks but once the kiss happens, sex follows almost immediately.

The question is how much time do you have? With them seeing each other 5 days a week, going for coffee and especially the walks she's really latching on to him. Her brain releases chemicals that give her a high every time he text, calls, touches her hand, tells her how pretty she looks. Those dopamine hits become so addictive that at a certain point they can make a married mother desire to perform wanton acts to keep them coming. I've lost count of the number of threads of BHs that thought their wife was low sex drive and unwilling to do certain things to find out she did those things with OM.

That's why many on TAM advocate to act quickly and boldly once you have the needed info. If you were to read the threads, you'll see there have been quite a few Bhs who start threads with a gut feeling when it was an EA but through inaction due to fear of being accused of snooping or of being called controlling, later found that it escalated to a sexual PA. Procrastinate at your young families peril.


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## Yeswecan

smoothieking said:


> As noted in my original post, we've had our challenges and one of those was in Feb 2019 and we decided to seek out some counseling to improve communication. We've done a few sessions and have made significant progress, but of course a long way to go.


The reason your W is not communicating with you is all meaningful communication is done with Nathan. As someone posted earlier, one of your W love languages is being met by Nathan.


----------



## Oldtimer

In reading your posts, in my opinion, it seems to have gone further than an EA. Remember, it’s just my opinion. The texts, the meetings, walks etc.... What is this meet me at the stairway stuff?

Young man, I would drop the bomb, you read enough on here about the crappy counsellors who tell you that you wrong, your out of your mind, how could you believe your wife would do that, look at how remorseful she is from a slight MISTAKE.


Again in my opinion, there is enough information to confront, you have been given excellent advice from many who have been in your shoes. You can believe what other posters have stated or take it with a grain of salt. Your choice, bottom line is they will all be here for discussion and comforting words in the aftermath of your wife’s affair and yes it is just that.

I wish you the best.

OT


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## jsmart

faithfulman said:


> @smoothieking -* Don't think looks are what counts.*
> 
> You'd be on the spear if you were behaving like that with a coworker who was but-ugly.
> 
> So go ahead and put her on the spear.


I agree. @smoothieking, don't let your guard down because this Nathan is not some great specimen. We've had SO MANY threads from BHs that are surprised their WW is willing to blow up their family for a much older man or an over weight man, or even a complete jobless loser involved in criminality. 

So don't project our male obsession with a pretty face or hot body and think, I look better than him or have a better career than him because woman are more into the emotional connection or perceived status. With your wife in line to be this guy's manager, it's not a status thing. For her she is developing a deep emotional connection. 

The sexes behave very differently toward their betrayed spouse during their affair. This Nathan is not going to stop loving his wife or want to blow up his family for your wife but a WW that's developed the emotional connection with her OM, has basically replaced her husband in her heart, and usually in the bed as well.


----------



## skerzoid

personofinterest said:


> Exposure???
> 
> Did I miss something? Are they having sex?
> 
> This is much too chummy, but exposure over texts seems...overkill.
> 
> She is too chummy with this guy. She needs to back off.
> 
> But don't polygraph her and DNA your kids based on speculation.





smoothieking;
I will keep audio monitoring at home and car said:


> This is why I said that exposure is something that should not be used as a threat.


----------



## SunCMars

jsmart said:


> Even though this appears to have not yet gone PA and it is at the mild EA stage, it already has been impacting your marriage. She's already has feelings for this guy. Procrastinate at your young families peril.


I have never posted this before, but sometimes I just think, 'screw it", let it progress to its wrong-headed end.

Let the wayward completely hang themselves.

Why would you want to stay married to such a careless and flawed character? 

Why bother?

Just a thought, an outburst.

Why are we obligated to teach others, morality?

I know, love is usually the resisting component in these infidelity instances.





[THM]- SCM


----------



## TRy

@Smoothie king: You say that you “decided to seek out some counseling to improve communication”, but solving your communication issue with her is not really possible as long as she has this other man (OM) in her life. Many dates do not involve even kissing, and even fewer involve sex. Dating is spending time with someone that is qualified to be a potential mate, such that it allows the two of you the opportunity to develop romantic feelings for each other should you be compatible. Your wife may not know it, but she is in effect dating this OM, and the feelings that she is developing for him are feelings that she use to give to you.


----------



## x598

TRy said:


> @Smoothie king: You say that you “decided to seek out some counseling to improve communication”, but solving your communication issue with her is not really possible as long as she has this other man (OM) in her life. Many dates do not involve even kissing, and even fewer involve sex. Dating is spending time with someone that is qualified to be a potential mate, such that it allows the two of you the opportunity to develop romantic feelings for each other should you be compatible. Your wife may not know it, but she is in effect dating this OM, and the feelings that she is developing for him are feelings that she use to give to you.


this is exactly right. i'll take it a step further....as this progresses, she will begin to detest YOU.....and we are already seeing this by her wanting counseling for your "communication issues"....which really all stem from the fantasy land affair she is in right now.

one MASSIVE red flag to me is the gaps in her texting. there is NO WAY they didn't communicate on those "missing days"...what really happened is she deleted those message because even in her mind they were over the top flirtatious and she didn't want you to see them.

as for when/where/how to confront....may here have given you different ideas...just make sure when you do go to battle that you are armed to the teeth with undeniable evidence.

if it was me, I would go to counseling with her and let her bury herself in front of the counselor. be mildy accusatory, telling them both it feels like she is too close to this guy, the work relationship is interfering with your marriage and stuff like that. she will get all defensive and lie about the true nature of it. then drop your bomb with copies of everything you have. at that point I would ask for a legal separation, then I would confront the scumbag she is doing this with. my suggestion is to drive to his home, in front of his wife, giving her the same data, and tell him he can have her.


if this doesn't shock the hell out of your wife and knock some sense into her......nothing will.


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## jsmart

SunCMars said:


> I have never posted this before, but sometimes I just think, 'screw it", let it progress to its wrong-headed end.
> 
> Let the wayward completely hang themselves.
> 
> Why would you want to stay married to such a careless and flawed character?
> 
> Why bother?
> 
> Just a thought, an outburst.
> 
> Why are we obligated to teach others, morality?
> 
> I know, love is usually the resisting component in these infidelity instances.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [THM]- SCM


I can empathize with that sentiment but you know how easy it is to fall into temptation. It sneaks up on you. Whether it's sex, drugs, gambling, or some other vice, sin is enticing. Knowing that, sometimes it requires our better half to intervene in love to stop us from destroying ourselves. If not for the marriage's sake then to defend our kids' stable home life. 

I'm not able to put myself in a woman's shoes to fully grasp how the temptation work for them but for this Nathan guy, I can imagine he's 
focused like a laser in putting in the effort to win her over. When we men get a possibility of getting some new pus.. We pull out all the stops.
The more time he spends with her the more worked up he gets. After months of all this alone time they've shared, he can practically taste her. 

My fear is that @smoothieking doesn't yet know how late the hour is. This has been brewing for months but I don't get the sense of urgency in his post. To passively wait for some MC to rescue them, is a recipe for failure. Everyone here knows that women respond to bold confident action. Passive weakness will repel her into OM's bed.


----------



## Taxman

I don't see this as a communication issue. She likes the guy, and is likely oblivious to the moves he may be making on her. I have not been shy about being an arsehole when it comes to men hitting on women. My wife was in a job where one exec thought that the little jewish bookkeeper would be a nice trophy for his mantlepiece. I told her that at some point he was going to ask her out for a drink after work. She said that he was a pro and it would never happen. I told her to either quit the job, or I would do it for her. She demurred for exactly one week. ****** had the nerve to ask her for a drink, and then a little "entertainment" after. I called his home and asked his wife if she was OK with him taking my wife out for a drink and some fun. The next morning, he came in and was not the nicest. Told my wife that I had wrecked his plans, then winked at her. He has the nerve to say that they'd have to wait until the heat was off, and stop telling your husband what goes on in the office, fer chrissakes. She stood up, and said, "Taxman is right, you are a sleazebag. She then marched down to HR and tendered her resignation. She then told them why. Sleazebag was not too happy. Sleazebag was put on report, and eventually dismissed several months later.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Taxman said:


> I don't see this as a communication issue. She likes the guy, and is likely oblivious to the moves he may be making on her. I have not been shy about being an arsehole when it comes to men hitting on women. My wife was in a job where one exec thought that the little jewish bookkeeper would be a nice trophy for his mantlepiece. I told her that at some point he was going to ask her out for a drink after work. She said that he was a pro and it would never happen. I told her to either quit the job, or I would do it for her. She demurred for exactly one week. ****** had the nerve to ask her for a drink, and then a little "entertainment" after. I called his home and asked his wife if she was OK with him taking my wife out for a drink and some fun. The next morning, he came in and was not the nicest. Told my wife that I had wrecked his plans, then winked at her. He has the nerve to say that they'd have to wait until the heat was off, and stop telling your husband what goes on in the office, fer chrissakes. She stood up, and said, "Taxman is right, you are a sleazebag. She then marched down to HR and tendered her resignation. She then told them why. Sleazebag was not too happy. Sleazebag was put on report, and eventually dismissed several months later.


 Sleazebag did all of that with ZERO encouragement from your wife?


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## Taxman

She was polite, and he misread it. She naively thought that he was just a good guy. I kept warning her, and she kept saying that no, he's a good married man, I have talked to his wife, and I don't believe for a second that he is trying to hustle me. We, at that point agreed to disagree. I said at some point he is going to make a move. Never, ever be alone with this guy out of the office. Wouldn't you know that at the end of the day, he made his move, and he was called on it.


----------



## NewMan19

Having just gone through this I agree with most of the feedback here. I caught mine when (in my opinion) an inappropriate text came in and I saw it. This prompted me to look deeper finding out exactly what I had hoped not to. Held it for a while but finally caller her out on it and she gave me the whole "ew, gross, he's like a brother" "we are only friends" speech. Asking or demanding it stop will in my opinion be unsuccessful and many other have stated she will just go underground with it. A few months after my initial discovery my wife and I were casually having an after work drink at a bar when I caught her off guard and asked to see her texts from XXXXX, surprise there were none.... not even work related. I wonder why??? The final time this happened we were at home one evening and I was asking her about her day, specifically lunch as she had declined having lunch with me that day. She got extremely squirly which got me asking more question I finally asked if she had been with XXXXX she said no!, he is in Canada for work and she hasn't seen him for a while. My next statement.... Give me your phone. When she opened he phone she realized she had not yet done her daily delete and rushed to do so but not before I took it from her. Yep, she was at lunch with him that day to celebrate her getting removed from her office (another story). Her response... "I do delete these because I know it makes you mad even though you shouldn't be and I am sorry I lied."

Just be ready for it.

I also realized all the daytime dating that was happening coffees, lunches, happy hours, ect. and yes, looking back it was dating not innocent hanging with friends.


----------



## MAJDEATH

The only "work spouse" allowed is one of the same sex. I can name several SGTs that probably knew me better than my W did, because of the enormous amount of time spent together on military OPs. I still talk to them regularly to check on their mental health.


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## Lillotta83

100% agree


----------



## notmyjamie

The fact is that depending on our jobs, we spend more time with our coworkers than our spouses sometimes. Many years ago, my company had a game night and hosted a Newlyweds game with 6 "couples." Three of the couples were married, three of them were opposite sex coworkers. Guess which category won the contest. And before anyone says they were having an affair and that's why they knew each other so well, the male of this couple was gay. They were just good friends who worked together all day and therefore knew each other better than the married couples knew each other. The other two non married couples did very well in the game as well, placing 2nd and 4th.

A lot of people were shocked at the outcome but on some level it makes sense. People get close to their coworkers, sometimes closer than they realize. I work with a guy that flirts with me constantly. I'm about 12 years older than him, I don't think he's truly interested in me, but if I were younger and vulnerable, I might be tempted to flirt back. Seems innocent enough until you're in a hotel room on your lunch break which is never a worry for me because nurses don't get lunch breaks LOL

People need to be careful. A work spouse thing can definitely be taken too far.


----------



## Marc878

Taxman said:


> She was polite, and he misread it. She naively thought that he was just a good guy. I kept warning her, and she kept saying that no, he's a good married man, I have talked to his wife, and I don't believe for a second that he is trying to hustle me. We, at that point agreed to disagree. I said at some point he is going to make a move. Never, ever be alone with this guy out of the office. Wouldn't you know that at the end of the day, he made his move, and he was called on it.


I see this all the time. A lot of men are legends in their own mind. If a woman smiles at them or is friendly it goes way over their head.

How many times do you see guys talking about their awesome relationships, how great they get along, etc. Then they get dumped and have no clue as to why?

As far as women in their mid 30's to 40's a little attention can go a long, long way.


----------



## TRy

smoothieking said:


> I'm mostly pissed at the amount of time this person gets, and when she's home she exhausted for work and 1hr commute both ways, I feel like I get the "**** hours" of the relation ship.


 When your wife works late after having gone out for coffee, lunch, or a walk with the other man (OM), then she is working late because she made the decision to spend her free time with the OM instead of doing her work and spending it with you.


----------



## TRy

Taxman said:


> She was polite, and he misread it. She naively thought that he was just a good guy. I kept warning her, and she kept saying that no, he's a good married man, I have talked to his wife, and I don't believe for a second that he is trying to hustle me. We, at that point agreed to disagree. I said at some point he is going to make a move. Never, ever be alone with this guy out of the office. Wouldn't you know that at the end of the day, he made his move, and he was called on it.


Some women have "resting ***** face" where their natural default facial expression is a mean looking one even if they are not mean. Most women have a neutral default facial expression. While a few women have "resting smiley face" as their default facial expression. When an attractive woman such as my wife has "resting smiley face", on an ongoing basis many men will regularly misinterpret that she is interested in them when she is not; these men are always stunned when she shuts them down hard when they make their first move. I am guessing that this is the situation with your wife.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

smoothieking said:


> thanks for all of the posts. I am going to continue a bit of monitoring over the next week or two. As noted in my original post, we've had our challenges and one of those was in Feb 2019 and we decided to seek out some counseling to improve communication. We've done a few sessions and have made significant progress, but of course a long way to go. None of this has been discussed of course as we have not had a session since I started digging this deep. We have 4 sessions coming up this month, and based on how the monitoring goes, I will likely confront her a day or two before the session and then introduce it there, or schedule an individual session with counselor which we've discussed doing for both of us. There are some wide ranging assessments in the feedback here, at the end of the day I really don't know whats going on because I'm not there, but based on what I see/hear this is still an early EA, not PA. I'm not acknowledging that early EA is OK by any means, but can be reversed. Reading all of this today has been a bit of an emotional whirlwind, trying to stay realistic about what could be going on. Tonight when she came home, she mentioned that another co-worker told her that her name is on a short list for a position with OM's Boss, she would be Sr. to him in position, and she said "I would be working with Nathan more, which I would like a lot". This killed me, it was hard to look at her during dinner and thankfully our toddler is pretty entertaining. Another piece of info I did not mention before is that she is actively trying to leave job that is a 1hr commute and work locally, or even stay at home. She acknowkedges the job is putting severe strain on our relatinonship. Her manager is ****ty, along with many of the people she works with. It's a toxic environment, I've seen and hear evidence of that to know it's true. WHen she mentioned this job working with Nathan, I simply indicated, well that isn't going to work because its not part of your exit strategy there. She agreed. Given that we have the counselor sessions coming up, I think that is my advocate for disolving this situation. Just sucks though, i know I'd be on the spear if I was doing this with a female co-worker that was attractive.


I just read this again and realized I missed the date. You went to counseling for communication problems in 2019 and she is venting to this guy as well.....

I am not saying you need to expose or inform the wife, but YOU need to end this garbage. 

Nope, I am not saying you are perfect, but go look at your original posts and the dissertation you just wrote. That texting wall is where your marriage communication has gone.


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## alte Dame

In my opinion, the 'communication issue' is very possibly her getting her ego stroked by the fabulous conversation she has with the OM. Poor OP can't 'communicate' like her OM, so they must have a 'communication problem.'

OP is being compared and isn't stacking up against the wonderful Nathan. She likes talking to Nathan much better, but if he didn't exist, the communication 'issue' wouldn't exist either.


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## Marc878

alte Dame said:


> In my opinion, the 'communication issue' is very possibly her getting her ego stroked by the fabulous conversation she has with the OM. Poor OP can't 'communicate' like her OM, so they must have a 'communication problem.'
> 
> OP is being compared and isn't stacking up against the wonderful Nathan. She likes talking to Nathan much better, but if he didn't exist, the communication 'issue' wouldn't exist either.


Excellent point.

They are communicating over the weekend too. She's allowed him to develop a deep relationship with her at your expense. In effect he is replacing you. I would suspect your marriage counseling is because she thinks you're the problem? 

A deep relationship can suck the life out of a marriage. There is only so much time in a day and if Nathan is taking up a big part of that what do you thinks gonna happen. She will drift more to him and you become the perceived problem.

If you lay out the data (I'd bet there are phone calls as well) it will be very evident and staggering to look at.

You have another problem. Your apparent avoidance of addressing the issue.

Read up this will help and it's short 
https://archive.org/details/RobertGloverNoMoreMrNiceGuy/page/n1


----------



## stillthinking

farsidejunky said:


> SK:
> 
> Do not depend on MC to get your wife to "see it your way".
> 
> *The only thing that wakes waywards up are consequences...bringing reality to their fantasy land.
> 
> The moment you show the sheer number of texts they are exchanging (let alone content) to this other guy's wife...watch the SHTF.*
> 
> You are going to have to find your inner caveman.


Yes. Do not be passive. Take action. 

Put her on her heals. A little shock and awe can go a long way. You can send the OM's wife the info. And that same day tell her you are not cool with the "work husband" situation, and leave for a few hours. Like SuncMars suggested. Let her marinate for awhile.


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## EllaBella

Smoothie, as a woman reading this thread... I think some of the responses you're getting are possibly OTT. Many of the men responding seem to have been burned by affairs in the past and have gone into red-eyed, storm-trooper combat mode at the mere suggestion of something inappropriate going on. 

If she IS having an affair.... then sure, they're right.

But if she's not? If she's just friends with some guy at work, she gets on well with him, but there's no attraction at all? You guys need to realise how disturbing this possessive, stalkery, control freak thing is to some women. Your 'inner caveman' is scary.

You're printing out her texts, putting a surveillance device in her car (!!!) bejesus, I talk to myself in my car! if my man put a surveillance device in my car I would hate it! People are suggesting you immediately print out all the texts and send them to his wife! Imagine the drama that would create! It could totally undermine her position at work. If there's really nothing going on, it would make you look like an insanely jealous stalker.

I have a client who is infatuated with me. I reciprocate to his text messages and keep things friendly, while not doing anything I'm not comfortable with. I need to keep him as a client. We're mid project, I need to keep going and get paid, so I have to keep the association going and manage the situation, the same as I would with a work colleague. I guess I am somewhat flattered. He's a nice enough guy and I enjoy our conversations, I guess. But I'm so totally not attracted to him and never will be. My husband has absolutely nothing to worry about. I do mention my client from time to time, but I don't tell him the extent of our association because I don't want to have to go there. 

I agree, 'Nathan' is stepping over the line, but your wife may feel similar to how I feel about my client. She may like him, but not in any romantic way, and would never, in a million years, have an affair with him. If she's anything like me she's highly selective. I thought it was very telling that when Nathan whinged about his wife forgetting his birthday, your wife said that YOU make a good birthday cake. 

I think you should say nothing for now. Insisting she quit the job, stop the friendship ... none of that will work and will just damage your relationship. Also do you really want to be with someone that WOULD have had an affair had you not put a stop to it? The only way to prevent affairs it is make your relationship with her as strong as possible. You'd be better off nurturing your relationship, be strong and trust in yourself, the relationship and her - while keeping your eyes open. She either loves you and will be faithful to you, or not. If not, now that you're alert, you'll soon find out.


----------



## MattMatt

TRy said:


> @Smoothie king: You say that you “decided to seek out some counseling to improve communication”, but solving your communication issue with her is not really possible as long as she has this other man (OM) in her life. Many dates do not involve even kissing, and even fewer involve sex. Dating is spending time with someone that is qualified to be a potential mate, such that it allows the two of you the opportunity to develop romantic feelings for each other should you be compatible. Your wife may not know it, but she is in effect dating this OM, and the feelings that she is developing for him are feelings that she use to give to you.


If you are in a small leaky boat with two other people one of whom is a stowaway, and whilst you are bailing water out to stop the boat from sinking, the other two people are pouring water into the boat, the result will be that the boat will sink.

Which is why relationship counselling if there is an affair partner or a toxic friend will almost certainly be doomed to fail.

Because at some point the person trying to bail out will think "Ah... the hell with this! Screw this mess. I am going to take off in the liferaft!"


----------



## smoothieking

EllaBella,
your points about many posts being OTT are 100% valid. There are better ways to deal with this situation than giving the OM's spouse a copy of this stuff or escalating this to defcon5. However, you acknowledge that Nathan is overstepping the line, and my wife has not yet indicated to him that this is occuring. This is a problem. You also mention a similar situation with your client who is likely infatuated with you, as is Nathan with my wife. There are some key differences here. You need your clients relationship to maintain an account for income. My wife does not directly work with or rely on this person for her job, so this is 100% social and not required. Would you continue to communicate with your client if you didn't need that account? Unlikely. You did not indicate that you and your husband are also in counseling to work on their marriage, with communication and mutual meeting each others needs discussions going on. If she is spending 60+ min every few days one on one with Nathan who seemingly has an agenda/infatuation, whether it is all work conversation or not, that is major noise that subconciously impacting her perspective on working on our marriage when there is this nice feel good situation at work that doesn't have any of the baggage of daily routine life at home. You also indicate that you've shared some of this with your husband. My wife has not shared with me once that she goes on these near daily coffee jaunts, lunches, walks, and certainly not 1 on 1 drinks from 2-5pm on a Friday.

I am continuing to monitor for a bit while I finish reading "Not just friends". it is a great book, hard to put down, but hard to read a lot at a time without her knowing it. Based on what I've read so far, she is dangerously teetering on being across the lines. A PA at this point in time is very unlikely based on what I've been monitoring. Once I finish that book, I will be confronting her about the situation at home, without text printouts, and see how the process goes. I will suggest that she read the book, at a minimum the first 6 chapters.


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## EllaBella

_"If she is spending 60+ min every few days one on one with Nathan who seemingly has an agenda/infatuation, whether it is all work conversation or not, that is major noise that subconciously impacting her perspective on working on our marriage when there is this nice feel good situation at work that doesn't have any of the baggage of daily routine life at home." _

Based on those texts, they do seem to legitimately collaborate on work projects. I agree, it sucks that people do spend their most productive time with their colleagues at work... but we're all spending time with other people and a relationship should be able to weather that. There is also the "baggage of daily routine life" at WORK. It would be nice to think that life at home has something better to offer than work! 

_"near daily coffee jaunts, lunches, walks, and certainly not 1 on 1 drinks from 2-5pm on a Friday" _

I hear you, it would piss me off too. Although it's not like you're available at these times and it's robbing you of her time. Are you sure that's exactly what's happening... is your perception of it correct? 

I haven't seen that book you're talking about, but I'm guessing it's going to really influence your thinking. It sounds like the Bible of Jealousy. If you were reading a book entitled something like "Namaste: Trust the Universe" you'd have a different perspective.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying be careful of feeding a suspicion and then acting under the influence of the other posters who are pretty much encouraging you to move in and blow up the situation. Best of luck to you... I hope it works out ok.


----------



## manwithnoname

smoothieking said:


> EllaBella,
> your points about many posts being OTT are 100% valid. There are better ways to deal with this situation than giving the OM's spouse a copy of this stuff or escalating this to defcon5. However, you acknowledge that Nathan is overstepping the line, and my wife has not yet indicated to him that this is occuring. This is a problem. You also mention a similar situation with your client who is likely infatuated with you, as is Nathan with my wife. There are some key differences here. You need your clients relationship to maintain an account for income. My wife does not directly work with or rely on this person for her job, so this is 100% social and not required. Would you continue to communicate with your client if you didn't need that account? Unlikely. You did not indicate that you and your husband are also in counseling to work on their marriage, with communication and mutual meeting each others needs discussions going on. If she is spending 60+ min every few days one on one with Nathan who seemingly has an agenda/infatuation, whether it is all work conversation or not, that is major noise that subconciously impacting her perspective on working on our marriage when there is this nice feel good situation at work that doesn't have any of the baggage of daily routine life at home. *You also indicate that you've shared some of this with your husband. My wife has not shared with me once that she goes on these near daily coffee jaunts, lunches, walks, and certainly not 1 on 1 drinks from 2-5pm on a Friday.*
> 
> I am continuing to monitor for a bit while I finish reading "Not just friends". it is a great book, hard to put down, but hard to read a lot at a time without her knowing it. Based on what I've read so far, she is dangerously teetering on being across the lines. A PA at this point in time is very unlikely based on what I've been monitoring. Once I finish that book, I will be confronting her about the situation at home, without text printouts, and see how the process goes. I will suggest that she read the book, at a minimum the first 6 chapters.


EllaBella also said she was not attracted to the other person at all, plus is just playing along for financial gain. Totally different. You don't know how attracted your wife is to Nathan. One thing you do know is she would spend time with him rather than you. Then there's the weekend non work texting...

Keep monitoring.


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## SunCMars

EllaBella said:


> _"If she is spending 60+ min every few days one on one with Nathan who seemingly has an agenda/infatuation, whether it is all work conversation or not, that is major noise that subconciously impacting her perspective on working on our marriage when there is this nice feel good situation at work that doesn't have any of the baggage of daily routine life at home." _
> 
> Based on those texts, they do seem to legitimately collaborate on work projects. I agree, it sucks that people do spend their most productive time with their colleagues at work... but we're all spending time with other people and a relationship should be able to weather that. There is also the "baggage of daily routine life" at WORK. It would be nice to think that life at home has something better to offer than work!
> 
> _"near daily coffee jaunts, lunches, walks, and certainly not 1 on 1 drinks from 2-5pm on a Friday" _
> 
> I hear you, it would piss me off too. Although it's not like you're available at these times and it's robbing you of her time. Are you sure that's exactly what's happening... is your perception of it correct?
> 
> I haven't seen that book you're talking about, but I'm guessing it's going to really influence your thinking. It sounds like the Bible of Jealousy. If you were reading a book entitled something like "Namaste: Trust the Universe" you'd have a different perspective.
> 
> I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying be careful of feeding a suspicion and then acting under the influence of the other posters who are pretty much encouraging you to move in and blow up the situation. Best of luck to you... I hope it works out ok.


You are such this trusting person?
You are she that drinks readily of sweet duplicity to get what you want?
You are that leaf that gets lifted by the wind, trusting its gusty and carefree intentions.
You play the games and the roles necessary to achieve your aims.
You care not that others may get hurt while you skate on ice, untouched?

Being plastic and tolerant may work for you, but you are are rather so inured to other's passion, as yours' likely, long ago fizzled out.

Or, so it seems..





[THM]-Nemesis


----------



## manwithnoname

EllaBella said:


> Smoothie, as a woman reading this thread... I think some of the responses you're getting are possibly OTT. Many of the men responding seem to have been burned by affairs in the past and have gone into red-eyed, storm-trooper combat mode at the mere suggestion of something inappropriate going on.
> 
> If she IS having an affair.... then sure, they're right.
> 
> But if she's not? If she's just friends with some guy at work, she gets on well with him, but there's no attraction at all? You guys need to realise how disturbing this possessive, stalkery, control freak thing is to some women. Your 'inner caveman' is scary.
> 
> You're printing out her texts, putting a surveillance device in her car (!!!) bejesus, I talk to myself in my car! if my man put a surveillance device in my car I would hate it! People are suggesting you immediately print out all the texts and send them to his wife! Imagine the drama that would create! It could totally undermine her position at work. If there's really nothing going on, it would make you look like an insanely jealous stalker.
> 
> I have a client who is infatuated with me. I reciprocate to his text messages and keep things friendly, while not doing anything I'm not comfortable with. I need to keep him as a client. We're mid project, I need to keep going and get paid, so I have to keep the association going and manage the situation, the same as I would with a work colleague. I guess I am somewhat flattered. He's a nice enough guy and I enjoy our conversations, I guess. But I'm so totally not attracted to him and never will be. My husband has absolutely nothing to worry about. I do mention my client from time to time, but I don't tell him the extent of our association because I don't want to have to go there.
> 
> I agree, 'Nathan' is stepping over the line, but your wife may feel similar to how I feel about my client. She may like him, but not in any romantic way, and would never, in a million years, have an affair with him. If she's anything like me she's highly selective. I thought it was very telling that when Nathan whinged about his wife forgetting his birthday, your wife said that YOU make a good birthday cake.
> 
> I think you should say nothing for now. Insisting she quit the job, stop the friendship ... none of that will work and will just damage your relationship. Also do you really want to be with someone that WOULD have had an affair had you not put a stop to it? The only way to prevent affairs it is make your relationship with her as strong as possible. You'd be better off nurturing your relationship, be strong and trust in yourself, the relationship and her - while keeping your eyes open. She either loves you and will be faithful to you, or not. If not, now that you're alert, you'll soon find out.


What if you were attracted to your client, and he was a smooth operator? 

Op's relationship is not as strong as it could be _because_ of this EA, and can't get stronger as long as this nonsense is going on.


----------



## Malaise

alte Dame said:


> In my opinion, the 'communication issue' is very possibly her getting her ego stroked by the fabulous conversation she has with the OM. Poor OP can't 'communicate' like her OM, so they must have a 'communication problem.'
> 
> OP is being compared and isn't stacking up against the wonderful Nathan. She likes talking to Nathan much better, but if he didn't exist, the communication 'issue' wouldn't exist either.


Her talks with OM don't include the scintillating " cat threw up", the romantic 'clogged toilet', or the popular 'mortgage payment'.

So, yeah, OP loses.


----------



## alte Dame

EllaBella is giving the armchair advice of the uninformed. People get blindsided by EA's all the time because of just this sort of advice. OP can decide to listen to his gut and the experience of the people here, or he can be swayed back into a non-responsive posture by one truly unschooled poster.


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## alte Dame

EllaBella said:


> I haven't seen that book you're talking about, but I'm guessing it's going to really influence your thinking. It sounds like the Bible of Jealousy. If you were reading a book entitled something like "Namaste: Trust the Universe" you'd have a different perspective.


How completely silly and insulting to call Shirley Glass's important work the 'Bible of Jealousy.' I would say that anyone who critiques a book without reading it has internalized the Bible of Ignorance.

Smoothie, 'Not Just Friends' is an important, groundbreaking result of years of academic work. It is EXACTLY pertinent to your situation. It can only help to inform your choices in a positive way.


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## NJ2

Yeswecan said:


> Let's also see that Nathan is playing the put-out H. Marriage is bad. Left with the kids(again) as W is out of town. Oh whoa is me. This is activity looking to get the sympathetic ear of your W. Eventually he gets the attention(needy) and soon physical goal he is looking to gain with playing the lost H.
> 
> How do I know this? My x-fiance did this to me. OM in his awful life....needed her..... And she told me that very thing.


Yes its definately a ploy! When H first changed departments and was working with OW he talked about how much he felt sorry for her, how the other guys made fun of her behind her back because she had a fat ass, he said he would never and that he tries to help her. He said she needed him to keep things running smoothly so he acted as a buffer between her and the rest of the guys (she was his boss). He said she needed him to help her with construction issues on her house because her boyfriend was a "baby" and in her words "didnt know how to do things the way H did, boyfriend was too young and inexperienced..." These were his excuses AFTER I found out he'd been lying and had gone to her house multiple times.

When DD worked with them one summer OW was training her and DD said she took her and showed her where "they" went for coffees, walked on the pier, went for walks in the garden/woods at lunch.....she also told DD how much she just loved H and how funny, how awesome he was, how she listened for any time he stopped at his computer so she could go and help him (he's computer illiterate) She said how you really get to know a guy well when you spend all day with him .......and hes a great dancer ....we never see your mom, she doesnt like to socialize much...." 

So they were both heavy into stroking each others egos and had made each other essential to their well run workday. They had become each others PERSON- you know- the one that you tell your thoughts and dreams to, the one you go to to tell when something good or bad happens, the one you share your day with......it had stopped being me. I got the little bit that was left over- he'd come in the door, maybe talk about the weather, or something to do with the business of life- like bills-Your SPOUSE is supposed to be your PERSON not some **** from work. 

Interesting sidebar- DD also told me that OW would spend sometimes an hour before they went out to start doing jobs watching Horror movie clips, some of them were pornographic in nature. When I said this was highly unprofessional he said HE doesnt watch them and she only watches them to try and fit in with the guys. I would imagine this is an effective way to get a guy turned on by your presence- kind of like a Pavlov's dog experiment.... At this point he literally was incapable of saying ANYTHING negative about her but was able to call me delusional, bipolar, loser, pathetic, had no life, jealous, crazy, controlling.......

Be aware- this is what you will get when you confront. She will deny, deny, deny that they are anything more than friends, she will deny that there could ever be something between him- probably will tell you that he's not her type-even say he's old, fat or ugly, she will accuse you of being controlling and trying to stop her from having friends, she will say you are crazy delusional to think such things, she may even suggest that it is YOU who is having an affair.

Look up DARVO - its a reaction when accused of lying that indicates they are actually lying.
This is how my H acted whenever I confronted him with a lie (I never had any evidence that there was anything more than an EA but so many lies it hardly matters - it was betrayal either way). Somehow he became the innocent victim and I was a crazed lunatic. He would say "prove it" and when I could -Then he would say "ok, so, so what if I did do that? That doesnt mean anything....quit spying on me, i lied because you spy..."


----------



## NJ2

When I would discover things that were suspect- like inappropriate texts on his computer- (that he did not write, I was able to trace the phone number they came from and it was another guy he works with) his reaction was very different. 
He asked to see the texts and was curious about how they got on his computer. He assured me they had nothing to do with him. He said we will work together and somehow figure it out. Dont worry about it we will get to the bottom of it.

Far cry from yelling, name calling and defensiveness....just saying.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

alte Dame said:


> EllaBella is giving the armchair advice of the uninformed. People get blindsided by EA's all the time because of just this sort of advice. OP can decide to listen to his gut and the experience of the people here, or he can be swayed back into a non-responsive posture by one truly unschooled poster.


Not only that, the hypocrisy in that she lies to her own husband and justifies it in defending smoothieking's wife while calling everyone here OTT for pointing out the common red flags, is more than ironic.


----------



## alte Dame

Rubix Cubed said:


> Not only that, the hypocrisy in that she lies to her own husband and justifies it in defending smoothieking's wife while calling everyone here OTT for pointing out the common red flags, is more than ironic.


QFT


----------



## EllaBella

Rubix Cubed said:


> Not only that, the hypocrisy in that she lies to her own husband and justifies it in defending smoothieking's wife while calling everyone here OTT for pointing out the common red flags, is more than ironic.


This comment is an illustration of what I mean when I said some people have OTT reactions and possibly skewed perceptions ... I don't lie to my husband. I'm not defending smoothieking's wife. I said everyone could be right and his suspicions may be justified. Just saying he needs to keep an open mind.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

EllaBella said:


> This comment is an illustration of what I mean when I said some people have OTT reactions and possibly skewed perceptions ... I don't lie to my husband. I'm not defending smoothieking's wife. I said everyone could be right and his suspicions may be justified. Just saying he needs to keep an open mind.


You said you did. I'm just going by what you wrote.
Over the top huh? I think,No I know you are the one with the skewed perception



EllaBella said:


> I do mention my client from time to time, *but I don't tell him the extent of our association* because I don't want to have to go there.


 That's a lie of omission, and a self serving one at that. Oh , but I'll bet you "did it to save him from the pain."


----------



## Chaparral

Unfortunately, since a person’s gut feelings bring him here, the odds we are wrong is probably less than 1 in 100. That’s pretty much assuming some posters that find out nothing is going on stop posting. Years ago many posters would take the “ this could be purely innocent” stance but experience , as always, has turned out to be the best teacher. 

Smoothieking is in for a rough ride.


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## x598

EB you are exactly right that there are a lot of burned spouse here giving advise, myself being one of them.

but that makes the opinions we offer that much more invaluable, having actually walked the path the OP is now finding himself on. 


I only wish I had found this place sooner and had the wisdom of other posters in the same situation guiding me....being completely ignorant to what was really going on in my marriage. everything the OP has written is so typical, but in the world someone individually lives in, their situation seems unique, when in reality it goes down like this so commonly its unbelievable. All you have to do is read the countless threads here and you will discover how commonplace it is.



for the record...your opinion of this possibly being innocent, is in the minority for this thread. the only real question is how far has this relationship between the OP's wife and this intruder really gone. I shouldn't say intruder because she is a 100% willing participant but to the marriage that's what he is.

OP I don't know how long you have been married. but the longer you have been, the harder and more unlikely this behavior of your wife is to accept or come to terms with. there are so many threads where the burned spouse simply won't accept or believe there spouse is actively destroying the marriage and life....only to at some point find out all the horrible things we "burned" people were saying were true.

having the clarity of hindsight.....I can tell you everything your wife is doing....is exactly what my wife did (which I naively missed) I mean the "communication problems" the counseling.....it was all identical to your situation.....


im not here posting because I am angry at my X (yes we did divorce over this...it went on long enough that the affair went all the way) but because I know the pain and sorrow that comes from it and if my story or advise can help one person avoid some of that then so be it. OP I hope I am WRONG about your wife....but there are just way too many red flags here. this is a moment in your life where you need to be a strong as steel. 


what's the bigger irolny…..that you are concerned about an intruder in your life/marriage and going to war over it....or being a spineless wimp and letting this cancer progress to where it unrecoverable? if your wife gets offended that you are "fighting" for your marriage....well that tells you exactly where her head is at......that SHE isn't into the marriage and would rather get her needs met by another man.


----------



## Jus260

I can't tell if they are walking indoors or outdoors or walking to get coffee somewhere else in the building. @smoothieking do you live in a state where a reasonable couple would go for walks outdoors in December, January and February? The last place you would have caught me on purpose this past winter was outside.


----------



## stro

We tend to see the world through the lenses colored by our own unique experiences in life. That is extremely evident here at TAM. I’ve seen many a thread like this one get the immediate, “blow up her world!” “They are already ****ing”, response. 

Someone earlier in this thread suggested it’s “always” an affair. But what if it isn’t? What if she has a friend who’s company she enjoys who she has no desire to have sex with? Or fall in love with? Her husband hasn’t spoken to her about been his feelings regarding this so she has no idea how he feels. What if it’s just innocent on her part . Crazy thought I know, but it happens.

Having an affair is damn choice, physical and emotional. There are actually humans in this world who are capable of having opposite sex friends, good close friends, who they don’t fall in love with and who they don’t want to have sex with. It’s actaully possible. Though on TAM that is the exception but that’s why people often come here so you have to admit the sample is skewed. 

Now I will also admit, it’s clear this dude is into her. No argument there. And that isn’t ok. But that’s on him. This woman sounds fairly intelligent. It’s quite possible this whole situation could be remedied by her husband just letting her know this makes him uncomfortable. And I don’t blame him for wanting to protect his marriage from this guy. But I agree that making assumptions without actual evidence and going nuclear on her, sending the tests to this guys wife will only make him look crazy. 

Talk to your wife OP.


----------



## SunCMars

For the record.....

I do not want to chase off the @EllaBellas of the world.

She is clever by ten.

She is.

She is a worthy debater, she writes well, she worries, well, insufficiently.

She is a truster in Fate.

I suspect Fate has served her well.

Well, it has not served all here well. Hear?

Not this @smoothieking well. No!

I agree, it is good to roll with the flow, to heed, to cede some to to Namaste.

Ah, not so, when such this Namaste leaves you not high or dry.

Yes, it is good that you can take life's punch and quickly regain composure.

Doing so mindfully. Not letting anything bother you.

However, it hurts not to step aside Fate, to let it pass by and merely nick you, not knuckle sandwich you between the eyes.

I like my peanut butter and jealousy sandwiches.

My satisfied look gives comfort to any, my lover, she would know that I care, and that I care to protect my own.

Not leaving these things to Fate, to Namaste. 

Not bowing to any higher power.

I cannot buck, beat Fate. But I will die trying, die crying out in the wilderness.

Fate is not always black and white, not always decisive.
Ah! It is not always totally independent on one's own responses. 

Those, one's responses, that is where one can make some little changes in said Fate.
Fate, sometimes sad.





[The Helmsman]- The Martian


----------



## personofinterest

"Sleazebag did all of that with ZERO encouragement from your wife?"

What is this about???

Oh wait, I know....sad.


----------



## personofinterest

Rubix Cubed said:


> alte Dame said:
> 
> 
> 
> EllaBella is giving the armchair advice of the uninformed. People get blindsided by EA's all the time because of just this sort of advice. OP can decide to listen to his gut and the experience of the people here, or he can be swayed back into a non-responsive posture by one truly unschooled poster.
> 
> 
> 
> Not only that, the hypocrisy in that she lies to her own husband and justifies it in defending smoothieking's wife while calling everyone here OTT for pointing out the common red flags, is more than ironic.
Click to expand...

How do you know she lies to her husband?


----------



## Rubix Cubed

personofinterest said:


> How do you know she lies to her husband?


 She said so in her post. See my post #136.


----------



## personofinterest

Rubix Cubed said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know she lies to her husband?
> 
> 
> 
> She said so in her post. See my post #136.
Click to expand...

Ah, 8 missed that.

Yeah, you don't hide a coworker on the make from your spuse.


----------



## alte Dame

stro said:


> Someone earlier in this thread suggested it’s “always” an affair. But what if it isn’t? What if she has a friend who’s company she enjoys who she has no desire to have sex with? Or fall in love with? Her husband hasn’t spoken to her about been his feelings regarding this so she has no idea how he feels. What if it’s just innocent on her part . Crazy thought I know, but it happens.
> 
> Having an affair is damn choice, physical and emotional. There are actually humans in this world who are capable of having opposite sex friends, good close friends, who they don’t fall in love with and who they don’t want to have sex with. It’s actaully possible. Though on TAM that is the exception but that’s why people often come here so you have to admit the sample is skewed.


My own personal experience is that it's definitely not always an affair. That being said, her relationship with this guy has reached the point of, at the very least, inappropriateness for a married person. If OP is being tortured by this, is ordinarily not a jealous type, then certainly there is a serious issue.

So, for me, it's either inappropriate and hurtful in the way that boundaries are being crossed by the W, OR it's an A, EA or PA.

Either way, OP has a real problem that he has to confront and manage.


----------



## attheend02

At a minimum, talk to your wife immediately. Tell her it is inappropriate. Show her that you care enough to fight for your marriage.

In my opinion, waiting and bringing it up in marriage counseling will come on as combative and calculating.

I believe if I had known in the early stages of my wife's EA what was going on, I could have turned it around.
Once the Fog set in it was too late. Then it becomes a pick me dance which I would not participate in.

I think if you do it that way it doesn't matter if it is innocent or not... You are showing your boundaries. If she persists it will be a clear choice to go over those boundaries, if not you both win.


----------



## OnTheFly

attheend02 said:


> At a minimum, talk to your wife immediately. Tell her it is inappropriate. Show her that you care enough to fight for your marriage.
> 
> In my opinion, waiting and bringing it up in marriage counseling will come on as combative and calculating.
> 
> I believe if I had known in the early stages of my wife's EA what was going on, I could have turned it around.
> Once the Fog set in it was too late. Then it becomes a pick me dance which I would not participate in.
> 
> I think if you do it that way it doesn't matter if it is innocent or not... You are showing your boundaries. If she persists it will be a clear choice to go over those boundaries, if not you both win.


Agreed, straight forward and precise.


----------



## MattMatt

EllaBella said:


> _"If she is spending 60+ min every few days one on one with Nathan who seemingly has an agenda/infatuation, whether it is all work conversation or not, that is major noise that subconciously impacting her perspective on working on our marriage when there is this nice feel good situation at work that doesn't have any of the baggage of daily routine life at home." _
> 
> Based on those texts, they do seem to legitimately collaborate on work projects. I agree, it sucks that people do spend their most productive time with their colleagues at work... but we're all spending time with other people and a relationship should be able to weather that. There is also the "baggage of daily routine life" at WORK. It would be nice to think that life at home has something better to offer than work!
> 
> _"near daily coffee jaunts, lunches, walks, and certainly not 1 on 1 drinks from 2-5pm on a Friday" _
> 
> I hear you, it would piss me off too. Although it's not like you're available at these times and it's robbing you of her time. Are you sure that's exactly what's happening... is your perception of it correct?
> 
> *I haven't seen that book you're talking about*, but I'm guessing it's going to really influence your thinking. It sounds like the Bible of Jealousy. If you were reading a book entitled something like "Namaste: Trust the Universe" you'd have a different perspective.
> 
> I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying be careful of feeding a suspicion and then acting under the influence of the other posters who are pretty much encouraging you to move in and blow up the situation. Best of luck to you... I hope it works out ok.


Great. We have someone proffering advice based on what can only be described as "willful ignorance."


----------



## Jus260

Taxman said:


> She was polite, and he misread it. She naively thought that he was just a good guy. I kept warning her, and she kept saying that no, he's a good married man, I have talked to his wife, and I don't believe for a second that he is trying to hustle me. We, at that point agreed to disagree. I said at some point he is going to make a move. Never, ever be alone with this guy out of the office. Wouldn't you know that at the end of the day, he made his move, and he was called on it.



There was a woman in our underwriting dept who was pretty, had a fantastic ass and an extremely down to earth personality. I picked up on her friendliness as just part of her personality. She eventually left the company. After she left, the guy who worked in the cafeteria behind the grill asked me what I knew about her. Even though she was long gone, he read her friendliness as interest. I made the mistake of telling him that I thought her boyfriend was a lot older than her. He then decided that he was going to have to track her down to take her from her boyfriend. Like she was going to dump her boyfriend for a short order cook. 

I feel bad for people who completely misread women like that. I think it comes from high school and probably before, where all the pretty girls were *****y because they knew they could be. When one gives you the time of day unsolicited, she clearly wants you.


----------



## Taxman

Jus260 said:


> I feel bad for people who completely misread women like that. I think it comes from high school and probably before, where all the pretty girls were *****y because they knew they could be. When one gives you the time of day unsolicited, she clearly wants you.


Unfortunately the men that misread women are the ones that end up acting inappropriately and giving all of us a bad name. Guys that think they are gods gift to women, tend to not read cues given off by women and tend to interpret friendliness as sexual desire. Then try getting the idiot to go away. One of my assistants is a friendly good girl. Her husband is one of the nicest guys you would ever want to meet. However, there was a client, a few years back that saw her being nice as her wanting him. He would show up randomly, and use any excuse to talk to her. Eventually, I had a word with him. I told him that a) she is a good girl, and hands TF off. b) she is married, and her husband would not approve and finally c) I dislike people who show up in my office uninvited. So please, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.


----------



## Harken Banks

This is as far as I have reached in the thread. Be careful about raising this in marriage counseling. I had a terrible experience with exactly that. I will read on, but wanted to be sure to follow this comment from Alte Dame before I forgot.


----------



## Harken Banks

alte Dame said:


> It's fine to approach this in MC, but before you do that you should do your homework about the possible directions the MC session could go in.
> 
> Get ready to hear that you are paranoid or controlling, or that the 'just friends' is enough to know and that you can't tell her what friends to have, or that you have to determine what needs of hers you are not meeting to make her seek out her 'friend,' or that the counselor sees the marriage as the patient, not you.
> 
> These are all possibilities in MC sessions, so you shouldn't be surprised. Remember that these are different perspectives and that you don't have to agree. For me, the key is to be firm and confident in your own opinion about what is going on and what your boundaries are. You are reasonable. Always remember that.
> 
> At the same time, the counselor could be schooled in infidelity in general and EA's in particular, and actually agree with you. Sometimes that happens.
> 
> Perhaps you should touch base here before your session to see what people in this forum would advise as potential responses.


This is as far as I have reached in the thread. Be careful about raising this in marriage counseling. I had a terrible experience with exactly that. I will read on, but wanted to be sure to follow this comment from Alte Dame before I forgot.


----------



## smoothieking

attheend02 said:


> At a minimum, talk to your wife immediately. Tell her it is inappropriate. Show her that you care enough to fight for your marriage.
> 
> In my opinion, waiting and bringing it up in marriage counseling will come on as combative and calculating.
> 
> I believe if I had known in the early stages of my wife's EA what was going on, I could have turned it around.
> Once the Fog set in it was too late. Then it becomes a pick me dance which I would not participate in.
> 
> I think if you do it that way it doesn't matter if it is innocent or not... You are showing your boundaries. If she persists it will be a clear choice to go over those boundaries, if not you both win.


I concur this is a good approach. I actually have an individual counseling session coming up this week, my plan was to discuss my concern there 1:1 to get some guidance on making the right approach to W to help avoid the definsive response and get at the root of why this dialog/activity is occuring, and why does she think its an appropriate boundary or why she hasn't recognized it and what would it take for her to recognize this is inappropriate. bringing it up first time with the both of us in the session would come off as combative, that was not my plan. She is for sure leaving the job within 3 months, the key is to make this guy go away as text/call will be his only access - with boundaries broken, there is no need for continued contact. And the final point being establishing the proper windows and walls boundaries as outlined in Not just friends. Really is a great book for anyone entering any type of relationship. I wish we had read it years ago. This will create an opportunity to set rules, and if they get broken then its easier to sort out for next steps...


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## Marc878

I suspect your wife even though she is lacking proper boundaries and is way to close to this guy may not fully understand the position she's putting herself and your marriage in. Women tend to think platonic while most men do not. However, the line can become blurred over time and they can drop off the edge very quickly. 

IN other words if she was in your shoes I'd bet it would become very clear to her.

You are correct "Not Just Friends" is a great resource and has been around and used for a long time.

Not to mention "No More Mr Nice Guy".

Good luck


----------



## Marc878

MC can be a minefield. Especially if you get a bad one. From what I've seen that's maybe a 50/50 shot at best. Most have no clue when dealing with any type of infidelity or boundaries and can actually cause more damage.

Tread very carefully there.


----------



## SunCMars

MattMatt said:


> Great. We have someone proffering advice based on what can only be described as "willful ignorance."


Willful Faith in some other Power.

Not many powers are human friendly.
Human's who are friendly are not many.


----------



## Marc878

Are there many phone calls too or is it mainly texts?


----------



## bob_dobalina

ring this guy your self and tell him that hes over steeping the mark by a mile hes definatley grooming and not letting up


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## destroyd

Original poster, you are stuck in a situation you didn't ask for, but one that's not going to go away on it's own. 

My own experience with my WW had striking similarities to yours- even to the work setting, and the types of texts I would see on her phone. That text wall you typed triggered me in that they were so similar. There were never any 'smoking gun' texts for me to find either- because they did all their talking 'in person' and they were both very tech savvy. 

These days anyone with a penchant to cheat can find ready resources of what 'not to do' such as texting, and even resources that warn them against talking to other person while in the car to thwart vars. 

I did a lot to get to the bottom of my situation, with no success. My answer didn't come until they were well into a physical affair and my WW fell asleep reading on her device and I intercepted texts from OM that she didn't have time to delete. Even then, they weren't definitive of a physical affair, but of an emotional one. 

Long story short, because I had been reading here, I was able to confront her, and make some good guesses, told her I'd had her watched and bluffed her into confessing to the affair. I got a lot of TT at first, but then the dam broke when she knew I wasn't dumb enough to believe nothing was going on. I had seen the 'l love you' text from her OM and I KNEW at that point that there was fire to go along with that smoke. 

My wife is attractive, but reserved, and of a more 'intellectual' type. She dresses nicely, is concerned with what others think of her, tries to do right, had always been honest in her dealings and is fairly non-confrontational. She has been a great wife and mother to our kids. No drinking/drugs, no sketchy behavior EVER until that particular other man came into her life. 

I try to paint a sort of image of her so you can understand that it can happen to anyone. 

It was bad. Badder than I ever possibly imagined based on what intel I had seen. I was expecting a confession of deception about her lunch whereabouts, deleting texts, and the possibility of her dining alone with the OM on trips. 

What I got in the end was snot nosed, blubbering confessions of 8 months of making out in unnused rooms at the workplace, lying about going back on birth control, full on PIV in offices behind locked doors, in parked vehicles during lunch hour, and many tawdry nights in hotel rooms while at conferences after she would talk and video chat with me and the kids to wish us 'goodnight'. 

I was gutted. And I will never be the same again. 

I'm not trying to scare you my friend, but what you have posted so far is exactly how my WW affair got started. I KNEW things were off, but could not get any concrete evidence that I THOUGHT I NEEDED to act on. 

Confronting her will just drive her firther underground. I had noticed my wifes texts with said coworker- and had brought up the subject at least three times. "it's work issues" (there was legitimate turmoil going on at her workplace so I let it go). And, I got the old "we're just work friends, nothing at all going on". We had never faced these issues before in our marriage so I chose the 'wait and see' course of action. WRONG. 

My gut was screaming at me to "do something" but I didn't know what to do. 

Eventually, she got so blinded by the affair that she let those texts slip her up and then I KNEW. Once I knew, the game was up and she was caught. 

If not for my successful bluff, she would have either continued right under my nose, or taken it to her grave. 

All I'm saying is listen to people here. Formulate you a plan, and accept the fact that you are going to have to one way or another take action to get your marriage back on track. If you don't, you stand a good chance of ending up with irreperable harm to your marriage.


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## Robert22205

IMO living 1 hour apart is not going to stop the OM from reaching out to her.

If the car speakers interfere with the VAR, perhaps you can adjust the speaker settings to shift most of the sound to the far side or the rear.

Gathering solid evidence is worth while because:
- EAs and PAs tend to implode when exposed to family/friends (and that takes proof),
- the OM's wife is your best alley in monitoring NC (again, proof), and
- at this point your wife is at a minimum addicted to the attention she receives from the OM and it will take solid evidence to overcome her minimizing and self denial (including the fantasy she has of the OM).


----------



## Robert22205

When you do confront, among other things, remember:

Although you are responsible for 50% of the issues relating to your marriage, she is responsible for 100% of her decision to seek out the attention/company/friendship from the OM.

Spouses have an obligation to ensure their spouses feel safe from infidelity. High levels of texting, deleting texts or unexplained gaps in text strings, secret/daily private contact (coffee, lunch, drinks), and sharing personal information is evidence of inappropriate spouse behavior. 

Your MC has been continuously sabotaged by the presence of the OM in your wife's life. There is absolutely no way you can compete with the fantasy image she has created of him.

There has been much written about office spouses. Office spouse relationships are not exempt from the boundaries (e.g., discussing spouses, personalizing 
routine business contact/meetings as if it's a date) discussed in Not Just Friends.

Hand delivering your evidence to the OM's wife (without first notifying your wife) is not a nuclear option. It's a civilized means of communicating your very valid concerns - and giving her the opportunity to judge/decide for herself. The text string is a fact vs opinion and represents an opportunity to invite the OM's wife to form her own opinion. 

In addition, exposing the OM's texts to his wife is likely the only consequence he suffers. IMO she has a right to know how her husband behaves at work.


----------



## Harken Banks

Robert22205 said:


> When you do confront, among other things, remember:
> 
> Although you are responsible for 50% of the issues relating to your marriage, she is responsible for 100% of her decision to seek out the attention/company/friendship from the OM.
> 
> Spouses have an obligation to ensure their spouses feel safe from infidelity. High levels of texting, deleting texts or unexplained gaps in text strings, secret/daily private contact (coffee, lunch, drinks), and sharing personal information is evidence of inappropriate spouse behavior.
> 
> Your MC has been continuously sabotaged by the presence of the OM in your wife's life. There is absolutely no way you can compete with the fantasy image she has created of him.
> 
> There has been much written about office spouses. Office spouse relationships are not exempt from the boundaries (e.g., discussing spouses, personalizing
> routine business contact/meetings as if it's a date) discussed in Not Just Friends.
> 
> Hand delivering your evidence to the OM's wife (without first notifying your wife) is not a nuclear option. It's a civilized means of communicating your very valid concerns - and giving her the opportunity to judge/decide for herself. The text string is a fact vs opinion and represents an opportunity to invite the OM's wife to form her own opinion.
> 
> In addition, exposing the OM's texts to his wife is likely the only consequence he suffers. IMO she has a right to know how her husband behaves at work.


I would underscore that MC is at best a waste of time while this is continuing. It is a charade that bolsters the narrative that this relationship is not a problem (see, we are working on the real problems in the relationship here in marriage counseling) or even that you are creating a problem by overreacting and misdirects from this very serious and fundamental problem. My experience is that trying to explain your concern to the marriage counselor and appealing to the marriage counselor to acknowledge the problematic patterns (constant texting, meeting up throughout the day, check ins to say I am thinking about you, lying about or giving implausible explanations for inconsistencies, discussing marital problems, all looks pretty bad) will be met with flat denials and further explaining away by your wife and the counselor possibly taking the side, as mine did, that this is no big deall and even healthy in mature relationships and you have to let this go and let her have this relationship or risk creating a "real" problem and driving her into a "real affair." On what I have read here and my experience, I would say stop the MC (at least joint meetings, maybe do the sidebar) until you have this sorted out unless you have a high level of confidence the the MC will see the problem and address it firmly. If your wife truly sees this as an office friendship that does not damage your marriage, at least she will know that it has and that it is causing you great concern. From there she may understand your upset and try to make it right (my gosh, I did not want to hurt you, I had no idea this was on your mind -not likely, in my view, but god bless you if that happens) or minimize, deflect, and re-direct and try to convince you it is all in your head. I suppose she could also say it is all true, I am having an affair, I have been unhappy for a long time and so on. Also unlikely, in my view, but not without precedent. I try to shy from giving a lot of advice here because I pretty much played everything wrong in my own case, but I say no joint counseling while this continues unresolved. And that means you are comfortable you know all of everything about it. The not knowing for me made it impossible to get past it. My answer to our marriage counselor's admonition that I had to let it go was "Let go of what?" I found it impossible to let it go without knowing what it was I was supposed to be letting go of. Eventually I found out and it has not so far been something I can get past or let go. It might have been different if she had been honest with me when I first raised concern.


----------



## Harken Banks

I should follow what I wrote above with something more that may be of practical use or reference. I wrote that "[t]hings might have been different if she had been honest with me when I first raised concern.” I think that is right. But that was not going to happen because (i) she did not want to tell me the truth and in her thinking at the time probably did not think I was entitled to know, (ii) she liked what she was doing and wanted to continue, (iii) she did not at the time appreciate that our marriage was on the line, and (iv) abetting and enabling that, I was doing everything psychologically possible to remain open to the possibility that it was all in my head (paranoid and perhaps not even sane) and I was overreacting and prying into space that she should be allowed. “It might have been different if she had been honest with me when I first raised concern.” Maybe. Maybe not. There were already deep seated problems in the relationship. Maybe it could have been a time for healing. I hoped it would have been. But by not swiftly and firmly disabusing her of the notion that continuation of this relationship was her business and not mine and not inconsistent and incompatible with the survival of the marriage, I gave her what she needed to proceed. Good luck. I hope this resolves well for you.


----------



## alte Dame

There are several posters on this page alone who have lived through what you are living through now.

I hope you will hear and heed them.

Here is my story of what I am still told was an EA:

My H of many years was behaving in a way that this board would have flagged, flagged, flagged - cell phone attached to his hip; text alerts in the middle of the night; pw locks on everything; angry reactions if questioned on anything; aggressive stonewalling.

I thought carefully about who it could be and it wasn't difficult to settle on the direct report who was 25 years younger, had a doctorate in a field that impressed my H, and had undergone a massive physical transformation that, for a while, my H couldn't shut up about. 'You should see how stylish she is.' 'She's moved into this great place right in the city.' Ad nauseam. (It really went on and on, like a fanboy.)

I finally told him what I suspected and he reacted furiously. Absolutely impossible. He doesn't have those feelings for her. I'm being paranoid.

Unlike at other times in our M, I stood my ground. I told him that his behavior was at best not appropriate for our marriage and that it had to change. To his credit, he backed way off on his interactions with her and did his best to get her into another job at another place.

And then what happened?

She went after my H. She started criticising him to the higher-ups. She undermined at every opportunity. She shunned him in the office. In short, she acted like a woman scorned.

My H acted bewildered by her behavior at the end. To this day, he doesn't admit that she must have had feelings for him and his behavior had encouraged her. At the very least, it was a one-sided EA. (I'm a practical person and I still think that he could have been cheating.) 

So, if it looks like a duck.....

Please pay attention to our experience. It's not outside the norm. It represents the norm.


----------



## x598

OnTheFly said:


> Agreed, straight forward and precise.


ahhh the "talk to her delusion".

here is why talking to her wont do any good...….ready......she has already stated they have a "communication issue".....

let me translate that from cheating wayward coded language.

-wayward- "I am getting my needs met by mr sly fox over here, listening emphatically as he talks smack about his wife and life. it feels oh so wonderful sharing our lifes troubles together as we spoon each other and wish our lives were different so we could run off together and all would be rainbows and unicorns. You on the other hand, are the sole reason for all my lifes short comings and disappointments and are entirely to blame for me seeking fulfilment outside the marriage. A real spouse would have known this without me having to tell you and kissed my royal behind and spoiled me endlessly with deity like reverence. Instead I'm stuck with you and any changes you make now to cater to my new found importance to this world will be viewed from a position of weakness and groveling to keep my presence in your life. You have been regulated to a position of priority and importance akin to mopping the floor, and your views and opinions belong in the garbage can where I hold our relationship vows."


that OP in a nutshell is what you are really dealing with and up against. as other have pointed out...counseling is 50/50 at best.

when I went to counseling...because of my wifes complaints of our "communication issues"....I was on the lucky side and the counselor was a good one. the counselor sniffed out immediately what was going on (although I was like you, in total denial of the REAL situation) and you know what happened? within a few sessions my wife accused me of BRIBING the counselor and refuse to go any further.

OP you have to understand the disrespect your wife now harbors for you. anything and everything you do will be tainted or not good enough.

this post isn't any help from a perspective of what do about the situation, maybe with the exception of really learning and understanding what you are truly dealing with is the first step to PROPERLY addressing/solving the issue.


----------



## Openminded

I was married for a very long time. I was not suspicious of my husband's behavior with several of his direct reports until one day I suddenly was although, in retrospect, I should have been suspicious years before. 

I am positive he had a long-term affair with one and suspect he had affairs with two or three others. Maybe more. I'll never know for sure. I never got more of the truth than I could prove and even then he tried to spin it. When confronted, he always denied and lied and minimized. In general he tried very hard to convince me I was imagining it all. I wasn't. He fought the divorce but I wanted out and I've never regretted it. He was the least likely person, I felt, to cheat but he did. He's the reason I don't trust R. And he's the reason I'll never trust another man. 

That's what cheating does.


----------



## sa58

A marriage is between two people, and 
at times has its problems. This marriage 
at the present time has three people in it!!
You, your wife and Nathan

MC is between tow people working out their
problems. As long as there is a third person
involved it will not work!!

Anything that the MC and you tell her 
she is dong wrong , she will simply go tell 
Nathan and he will agree she is right. He will 
counter everything you say or do to try and 
fix your marriage. Cheaters even EA never admit 
guilt. She is doing nothing wrong in her eyes!! You
are at fault for her even if it is just an EA!!

You said you thought it was just a mild EA that can 
be easily reversed ? You are going to monitor and wait
until you talk with the MC ? Meanwhile she still talks about 
him (even to you) and how great he is. Getting closer and closer.
She will, probably has already lie about more things. No disrespect
but the communication problem is showing itself clearly. 

You are not communicating your feelings even when you and other's
know what she is doing is wrong, wrong, in so many ways. You can stop 
this form going farther ( it is headed towards a PA ) but will not. WHY ?

This is in your hands to fix and I can not say anymore.
Best of luck moving forward, but I feel it doesn't end well
unless you take action NOW not later. It is going to end 
somehow some way your choice now.

Your marriage together or destroyed by some worthless OM
You must get the outside influence out of your marriage to
fix the problem.


----------



## Robert22205

I am sorry you're here - and want to let you know that you are not alone. Sharing our stories from beginning to end for the benefit of others is our strength.
I know how delicate your situation is. i was in a somewhat similar situation but the OM was a deacon in our church. 

Frankly, I think her initial reaction to reading Not Just Friends will be a major indicator of how strong her interest is in preserving her marriage. You should be prepared to discuss your concerns immediately. 

IMO, after she reads the book, you shouldn't have to convince her that her relationship with the OM is unfair to you (and must stop).

As you know, it talks about crossed boundaries (and inappropriate behavior) identified with couples that experienced infidelity. If she argues that the research that the book is based on does not apply to her, then it's a major red flag - and it's likely she will not go NC or give him up easily. 

IMO if she is not immediately 100% in agreement with you (instead saying: he's my friend/ally in a hostile work force), then your next step is to share the texts with the OM's wife. Without warning to your wife or the OM. Not to punish your wife - but to shine a spotlight on the OM's behavior.

Also, consider sharing the texts and your concerns with someone who's opinion she values.

I wish you well.


----------



## stro

Were there any instances in those texts where she was sharing personal information about her marriage? I know HE was and was obviously playing the “feel sorry for me” card. But I don’t recall her doing it, at least via text. Who knows what they discuss in person. 

I also found it interesting that during his pity party she mentioned that her husband makes a great cookie cake. His reply was something to the effect of “I don’t know what to do with this”. I don’t think he liked her referencing the OP there. She just wasn’t supporting him like an AP would. It seemed he was very much in the friendzone in that exchange. I think she is far more grounded in this than the guy is. 

I know, I know, I could be wrong. I have this crazy habit of believing the best about people until proven otherwise and at TAM I usually am proven otherwise. 

But either way, the dude has to go.


----------



## Robert22205

After you two discuss the book and your wife's relationship with the COW, there's a good chance your wife will (stall) want time to think about it or transition into NC. That is not acceptable (she doesn't need time to think about right vs wrong) because she will then discuss your concerns with the OM. 

You should make it very clear that her failure to 'immediately' fully acknowledge the inappropriateness of her relationship (and it's unfairness to you) is viewed by you as proof that she fully intents to continue her affair. 

You need to take control and remain actively on the offensive until all your options are exhausted without giving her and the OM time to react, plan or strategize. Under the above circumstances, the next step is to immediately share the text messages with the OM's wife (invite her to form her own opinion). Note, when you share the texts you don't have to do so in a nuclear hysterical jealous tone. You can reach out to her in a very calm and civil manner. For example: i have a series of text messages between my wife and your husband that suggests that they may be developing an inappropriate emotional bond, including discussing topics that are more appropriately shared with their spouses. 

Somewhere in the texts the OM mentions his wife was stressed out over her tenure. If she's a college professor, her contact information is public so it should be easy to locate her office and just drop in for a chat (and share the texts).


----------



## SunCMars

alte Dame said:


> There are several posters on this page alone who have lived through what you are living through now.
> 
> I hope you will hear and heed them.
> 
> So, if it looks like a duck.....


Where there is a duck, there is a quack.

Where there is a quack, there is a crack, a crack at the lips, the middle of the beak.

A known cheater duck soon feels the need to poop, lest it burst. It can be made to quack out the truth.

You must grab hold of its poopy, lying tail and wring it. Before she can wing it out of there. 

Ring out this quacking, stringy, trickling, the whole be-damned poop truth.

The truth spoken from her beak not from her anus.

The anus, a cheater's alias.

Yes!





[THM]- The Typist I


----------



## SunCMars

One day, a day not soon, unlikely in this lifetime, @EleGirl will give a 'like' to one of my copious, rife with colorful explain-atories posts.

Dreams die hard.

Lies keep them firm.

Firmly in mind.


----------



## VladDracul

smoothieking said:


> get at the root of why this dialog/activity is occuring, and why does she think its an appropriate boundary or why she hasn't recognized it and what would it take for her to recognize this is inappropriate. bringing it up first time with the both of us in the session would come off as combative, that was not my plan.


Here's the thin my man. The crux is not that she can't see its inappropriate. It that your partner is not willing to stop because it hurts you and ultimately the marriage. My wife is very uncomfortable if I take my boat out alone. Despite I am probably in no more, or even less danger, and certainly less freedom by lining someone to go with me, I don't go alone because it stresses her and she ask me not to.
Most of the time she will go but occasionally something prevents it. 
Bottom line is does the value she places in (getting more out of) his friendship worth telling you to basically piss off (without really saying it). In any case you have no control.


----------



## MAJDEATH

OP, you say that OMs wife is a college professor. I am not sure revealing the texts to her will get you anywhere. I had an A with lady in the military reserves. She was "married"to an absent husband. Eventually it ended when I sent her away on a yearlong deployment overseas.

While deployed, she latched onto her next AP, a married reservist who was a college professor. When they returned, she transferred to his command in another state. They were in a full-blown (pardon the pun) affair.

She confirmed the affair to me and other people in the unit confided in me that he was making some real bad command decisions - some that may have led to people being killed because he was distracted.

I decided to reach out to his W, who was also a college professor. She didn't want to hear anything about an affair. He loved her, would never do anything like that. She's a family friend, been to the house for dinner many times (without her husband). Nothing I could say could convince her analytical/academic mind.

Her husband and AP even shared a room when they went to monthly drills. She was either in denial, clueless, or knew and didn't care. I even told her about an incident where I was invited to the APs home for a Christmas party and she made sure I received my "present" in a spare room during the party - even while the family was in the next room.


----------



## SunCMars

MAJDEATH;19840511
I decided to reach out to his W said:


> The present, your present was delivered to keep you complicit, to keep you quiet.
> Ahem!
> 
> ............................................................................................................
> 
> 
> 
> The facts can be analyzed, the resulting truth can thus be rationalized away.
> 
> For some personal reason. A reason only she would, could admit.
> 
> A nefarious reason, a fearful reason.
> 
> A reason that over powers meaningful, her passionate response.
> 
> It may be denial, it likely is acquiescence.
> 
> The man had a grip on her nether hairs.
> 
> Neither truth nor pride could break free his grip.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [THM]- SCM


----------



## SunCMars

Love holds tighter then do the snakes.

The snakes that squeeze out the very life and love till death shakes.

Shakes one free.

Love consumed and 'shat' out a week, a weep later.


----------



## sa58

Communication problems can involve

Not Talking
Not Listening
Not Sharing your thought
Not Sharing your feelings 
Not expressing yourself when needed

You are not doing these so she has a point!!

Bet Om is doing all of them!!

If you did this she would say something
why don't you ?

Everyone here says he is a problem 
in one way or another. 

Letting the predator stalk his prey leads to nothing,

Goodbye


----------



## Robert22205

Her working from home will not be a deterrent to contact with the OM. They can still text daily and meet once a week etc. Studies show that texts trigger the same emotional chemical responses as face to face contact. 

If they are truly 'just casual workplace friends' she should have no problem going NC immediately. However, if she's become emotionally dependent on the OM and therefore reluctant go NC, then you will have to appeal to the OM's wife. A last resort may be to expose/share the texts with their supervisors, the Dean, and HR. 

Remember when discussing (confronting) her about the COW that you only agree to share 50% of the issues related to your marriage - however, she is 100% responsible for her decision to seek emotional support and comfort outside her marriage vs from her husband. 

Her decision to form a secret intimate emotional relationship with another man not only makes you feel unsafe but deprives her marriage and family of the time & effort her family deserves.


----------



## NJ2

When H and I went to MC he was told to limit his contact with OW to strictly business- and by all intents and purposes it looked like he did- there were just a few short work related texts going forward- until he forgot to delete one week and there were 135 texts between them. They were half work related and half chatty personal but nothing overtly indicating a PA. After this week it went back to just a few work related ones a month. This means chances are he deleted 1000's over the next couple of years.

Even IF they were all non sexual the fact is he refused to stop even though MC said to stop and he knew how distressing it was to me. I will never get past that fact. Somehow it was more important to him to continue his relationship in secret with her than it was to make sure that i felt safe. That is the betrayal that hurts. It is knowing that I came 2nd to her needs.


----------



## bandit.45

EllaBella said:


> This comment is an illustration of what I mean when I said some people have OTT reactions and possibly skewed perceptions ... I don't lie to my husband. I'm not defending smoothieking's wife. I said everyone could be right and his suspicions may be justified. Just saying he needs to keep an open mind.


Let me a lay an OTT, skewed truth on you, and I hope all the women of TAM are reading this. 

No guy just wants to only be friends with a woman. 

If you are woman, when a guy becomes your friend, he is embarking on the long game to, at some point down the line, get you in bed. He may never get you there... but he will spend months and even years grooming you, agreeing with everything you say, joining with you in laughing and mocking your husband, listening intently to you for hours and hours about how your husband just isn't making the grade anymore.. and so on and so forth. He'll make you feel like a million bucks, make you think you are the smartest most charming woman in the world, and do anything he can to build your trust to get you where he wants you. 

We will make you think we care about the new curtains you bought for your house. We will make you think we care about how your husband makes you lose sleep at night with his snoring. We may make you think we care about how much you hate the new blonde girl working in accounts payable. But in reality? We don't care. We could give a sh*t about what your favorite foods are, what your new yoga regimen entails.... We don't give a crap about any of it. All we care about is getting in your pants, and figuring out the most expeditious way of getting there. 

Some guys will groom multiple women for years, simultaneously, pretending to be the innocent, nerdy, nice work-friend to all the gals. He may look completely innocent, act innocent and play innocent, but his intentions are insidious and aimed at one goal: breaking a woman's bond with her husband and getting her naked. And I'm not even talking about players... I'm talking about ALL men. We are all wired to do this, and we all seem to have an innate, inborn ability to engage this behavior when we stumble upon a woman who invites our friendship. 

Many will disagree with me. That's fine. But the guys here know I speak the truth. Men are dogs.


----------



## personofinterest

I wouldn't say men are dogs, but I have NEVER seen a situation where a* straight* man made a woman his confidante UNLESS sleeping with her was his endgame.

As for the woman, it isn't hard to say:

I'm sorry, I am faithful to my husband, and I find this conversation to be unprofessional and too familiar. I respectfully ask that we keep things professional.

If a coworker or potential client cannot handle that, then they don't need to be a coworker or potential client.

All the "but I need to keep him happy" song and dance is just a smoke screen.


----------



## TDSC60

bandit.45 said:


> Let me a lay an OTT, skewed truth on you, and I hope all the women of TAM are reading this.
> 
> No guy just wants to only be friends with a woman.
> 
> If you are woman, when a guy becomes your friend, he is embarking on the long game to, at some point down the line, get you in bed. He may never get you there... but he will spend months and even years grooming you, agreeing with everything you say, joining with you in laughing and mocking your husband, listening intently to you for hours and hours about how your husband just isn't making the grade anymore.. and so on and so forth. He'll make you feel like a million bucks, make you think you are the smartest most charming woman in the world, and do anything he can to build your trust to get you where he wants you.
> 
> We will make you think we care about the new curtains you bought for your house. We will make you think we care about how your husband makes you lose sleep at night with his snoring. We may make you think we care about how much you hate the new blonde girl working in accounts payable. But in reality? We don't care. We could give a sh*t about what your favorite foods are, what your new yoga regimen entails.... We don't give a crap about any of it. All we care about is getting in your pants, and figuring out the most expeditious way of getting there.
> 
> Some guys will groom multiple women for years, simultaneously, pretending to be the innocent, nerdy, nice work-friend to all the gals. He may look completely innocent, act innocent and play innocent, but his intentions are insidious and aimed at one goal: breaking a woman's bond with her husband and getting her naked. And I'm not even talking about players... I'm talking about ALL men. We are all wired to do this, and we all seem to have an innate, inborn ability to engage this behavior when we stumble upon a woman who invites our friendship.
> 
> Many will disagree with me. That's fine. But the guys here know I speak the truth. Men are dogs.


I don't normally disagree with bandit, but not all men are that way. I agree that the majority are.

That is why when I saw that OP's wife is having coffee alone, walking alone, and went out for drinks with Nathan it struck a chord with me. They are basically going on dates at work.


----------



## bandit.45

TDSC60 said:


> I don't normally disagree with bandit, but not all men are that way. I agree that the majority are.
> 
> .


You're right. I should have said all straight men are that way.


----------



## Chaparral

TDSC60 said:


> I don't normally disagree with bandit, but not all men are that way. I agree that the majority are.
> 
> That is why when I saw that OP's wife is having coffee alone, walking alone, and went out for drinks with Nathan it struck a chord with me. They are basically going on dates at work.


There are exceptions to the rule. That doesn’t make the rule any less true. Also, there are very few exceptions to the rule.


----------



## Lila

bandit.45 said:


> Let me a lay an OTT, skewed truth on you, and I hope all the women of TAM are reading this.
> 
> No guy just wants to only be friends with a woman.
> 
> If you are woman, when a guy becomes your friend, he is embarking on the long game to, at some point down the line, get you in bed.


I disagree that men only become friends with women in order to get them into bed but I do agree that they don't do it to be friends. They have to be getting something out of the deal whether that's a connection to other women, emotional support, financial help, or something else.


----------



## alte Dame

Bandit's rule is what I experienced when I was younger (and that really means up to age 50). As a young woman I was pretty clueless about this. It was always a big surprise when some male 'friend' suddenly declared undying love for me.

Now that I am older, that tension is basically gone. Now, younger men either can't be bothered to give me the time of day or talk to me happily like I'm a mother-type to them.

But, seriously, when I was young, Bandit's rule applied. I seemed to know lots of men over the years who were in the friend zone who didn't plan to be there forever.


----------



## notmyjamie

bandit.45 said:


> No guy just wants to only be friends with a woman.
> 
> If you are woman, when a guy becomes your friend, he is embarking on the long game to, at some point down the line, get you in bed.
> 
> We will make you think we care about the new curtains you bought for your house.


I often wonder how women don't see this. I mean, damn, I'm a woman and even *I *don't care about another woman's curtains.

I do think, well, I know, that for some men, it's more than just sex though. My ex contacts me a lot and I'm very certain he wants to get me back into his bed as he has come right out and said it. But, he also needs me for emotional support at certain times in his life. I think of us as friends and currently, he is the only person in my life that has NO connection to my STBX so it's nice to have someone to talk to about life that doesn't bring my husband into it. But I am under zero illusions that his flirting and compliments are anything but a way to seduce me. I've made it clear it will never happen and although the flirting, etc lessoned, it never goes completely away. Like you said, men are dogs. The difference between myself and many women is that I know this and I act accordingly. 

I think OP's wife just doesn't see it. I think she just thinks of him a nice guy that she can hang out with at work and vent about work stuff. She probably has no idea that he is trying to seduce her. Many women just don't see it. And now that it's been brought to her attention, she doesn't want to admit this is the case because that might make her look foolish for not recognizing it. I can certainly understand that, but I'd choose looking foolish over destroying my husband's trust in me.


----------



## re16

Lila said:


> I disagree that men only become friends with women in order to get them into bed but I do agree that they don't do it to be friends. They have to be getting something out of the deal whether that's a connection to other women, emotional support, financial help, or something else.


I make decisions based on the 90% rule. If it is true 90% of the time, consider it fact. That said, I agree with Bandit. Only women will disagree with Bandit's statement....All of the men know this to be true.


----------



## Rob_1

Well, personally, since I can remember being interested in women; every woman I ever met/meet is always (deep in the back of my mind) a potential sex partner; except those who do not attract me at all. After all one must have stardards (or do we). Uh, let me think about it.


----------



## FalCod

bandit.45 said:


> Let me a lay an OTT, skewed truth on you, and I hope all the women of TAM are reading this.
> 
> No guy just wants to only be friends with a woman.
> 
> If you are woman, when a guy becomes your friend, he is embarking on the long game to, at some point down the line, get you in bed. He may never get you there... but he will spend months and even years grooming you, agreeing with everything you say, joining with you in laughing and mocking your husband, listening intently to you for hours and hours about how your husband just isn't making the grade anymore.. and so on and so forth. He'll make you feel like a million bucks, make you think you are the smartest most charming woman in the world, and do anything he can to build your trust to get you where he wants you.
> 
> We will make you think we care about the new curtains you bought for your house. We will make you think we care about how your husband makes you lose sleep at night with his snoring. We may make you think we care about how much you hate the new blonde girl working in accounts payable. But in reality? We don't care. We could give a sh*t about what your favorite foods are, what your new yoga regimen entails.... We don't give a crap about any of it. All we care about is getting in your pants, and figuring out the most expeditious way of getting there.
> 
> Some guys will groom multiple women for years, simultaneously, pretending to be the innocent, nerdy, nice work-friend to all the gals. He may look completely innocent, act innocent and play innocent, but his intentions are insidious and aimed at one goal: breaking a woman's bond with her husband and getting her naked. And I'm not even talking about players... I'm talking about ALL men. We are all wired to do this, and we all seem to have an innate, inborn ability to engage this behavior when we stumble upon a woman who invites our friendship.
> 
> Many will disagree with me. That's fine. But the guys here know I speak the truth. Men are dogs.


Wow! You've looked into the hearts and minds of billions of men and found that none of them ever wants to just be friends with a woman! That would be an impressive feat if you'd actually done it. 

You must have missed at least one guy. I'm a straight guy who, as my wife can attest, very much enjoys frequently engaging in sexual activity. Yet, I have many female friends with whom I've never been interested in any sort of physical relationship. While it might not be possible for you (I shudder to think how you feel around your mother, sisters, or daughters), it is possible for at least some men. Not everyone sees half of the people on the planet as sex objects. Some of us really are capable of befriending people of either gender.


----------



## Bluesclues

bandit.45 said:


> EllaBella said:
> 
> 
> 
> This comment is an illustration of what I mean when I said some people have OTT reactions and possibly skewed perceptions ... I don't lie to my husband. I'm not defending smoothieking's wife. I said everyone could be right and his suspicions may be justified. Just saying he needs to keep an open mind.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me a lay an OTT, skewed truth on you, and I hope all the women of TAM are reading this.
> 
> No guy just wants to only be friends with a woman.
> 
> If you are woman, when a guy becomes your friend, he is embarking on the long game to, at some point down the line, get you in bed. He may never get you there... but he will spend months and even years grooming you, agreeing with everything you say, joining with you in laughing and mocking your husband, listening intently to you for hours and hours about how your husband just isn't making the grade anymore.. and so on and so forth. He'll make you feel like a million bucks, make you think you are the smartest most charming woman in the world, and do anything he can to build your trust to get you where he wants you.
> 
> We will make you think we care about the new curtains you bought for your house. We will make you think we care about how your husband makes you lose sleep at night with his snoring. We may make you think we care about how much you hate the new blonde girl working in accounts payable. But in reality? We don't care. We could give a sh*t about what your favorite foods are, what your new yoga regimen entails.... We don't give a crap about any of it. All we care about is getting in your pants, and figuring out the most expeditious way of getting there.
> 
> Some guys will groom multiple women for years, simultaneously, pretending to be the innocent, nerdy, nice work-friend to all the gals. He may look completely innocent, act innocent and play innocent, but his intentions are insidious and aimed at one goal: breaking a woman's bond with her husband and getting her naked. And I'm not even talking about players... I'm talking about ALL men. We are all wired to do this, and we all seem to have an innate, inborn ability to engage this behavior when we stumble upon a woman who invites our friendship.
> 
> Many will disagree with me. That's fine. But the guys here know I speak the truth. Men are dogs.
Click to expand...

Took me a long time to realize this fact, like 46 years, but I totally agree. But that is sort of the point with what OP posted. Nathan is laying the groundwork for the long game like a muther and I don’t think OP’s wife is seeing it that way. Because like many women, myself included, we don’t actually KNOW that ALL men want sex from us. Now she is also getting something from the relationship - but I think it is help at work and not romance. Quid pro quo isn’t on her mind at all. I know guys are like “she has to know what he wants!” Nope, there are many of us that are that naive.


----------



## FalCod

Lila said:


> I disagree that men only become friends with women in order to get them into bed but I do agree that they don't do it to be friends. They have to be getting something out of the deal whether that's a connection to other women, emotional support, financial help, or something else.


Why? Do you think that the same is true for male-to-male friendships? What would happen if a guy was friends with a guy that had an operation and became a gal? Would the friendship end unless he started getting emotional support, financial help, or something else? 

Do you think that women can be friends with a guy without ulterior motives?


----------



## Rubix Cubed

FalCod said:


> Why? Do you think that the same is true for male-to-male friendships? What would happen if a guy was friends with a guy that had an operation and became a gal? Would the friendship end unless he started getting emotional support, financial help, or something else?
> 
> Do you think that women can be friends with a guy without ulterior motives?


Threadjack much?


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

I read this through and Nathan is as shallow as a teaspoon of water and slicker than 10w40. If it was me I would pay Nathan a visit letting him know the next time you contact my wife I will be on your ass in a New York minute and I would strongly “encourage” him to cease and desist. But that’s just little ol me, what do I know?


----------



## Harken Banks

TDSC60 said:


> I don't normally disagree with bandit, but not all men are that way. I agree that the majority are.
> 
> That is why when I saw that OP's wife is having coffee alone, walking alone, and went out for drinks with Nathan it struck a chord with me. They are basically going on dates at work.


I don't think all men friendships with women are about getting into the pants of the woman they are friending, but thinking about it from my own experience and with what I have observed, I tend to agree most men who develop friendships with women in most cases, if honestly evaluated, are not doing it with honest, pure motive and just because of friendship. 

In most cases men and women are wired differently enough that friendships are not the same. It is not that pure friendship that you feel in the center of your chest. Men together we do fun and funny things, we say funny ****, we laugh at each other, we laugh when we are laughed at, we would drop everything on a dime to be there when needed, even if it was just to hold someone's head over the toilet. We'd steer them straight when they were going the wrong way. 

Then we'd give them **** about it and it would be funny again. I expect this works the other way around with women, though I cannot imagine that women are as much fun or loyal, impressive, amusing, honest, and intellectually stimulating. Probably because I am a man. My daughters and the handful of pure friendships with women I have now and have had (friendships, that is) are the exception. Where the core of the relationship is genuine and selfless care for the other and nothing more. I have never cultivated a friendship with a woman with the objective of courting or getting into her pants. I have and have had a great many friendships with women that looking back I can acknowledge were not pure but to a greater or lesser degree about my interest in women's perspective (it's kind of unknowable, for those who are into Kant's phenomenology), to shore up rep and sense of self as a good guy, or just to be polite maybe mixed in with the good guy stuff or because this is someone in my circle of friends and relationships. But it is just not the same lose yourself in the bond sort of thing. Back to the topic, I have some friends I think are capable of easy, natural friendships with women where, yeah, there is the gender difference but it's a genuine I just dig this person thing. I assume in most cases, with most men (again the same may well be so with women), there is an angle. And the poster who wrote Nathan and OP's wife are having dates at work (and now outside of work) is spot on. For Nathan, whether he is enough self-aware or honest with himself to recognize or admit it, this is about sex. That is my view. Not all men do this. Target a married woman. 

****heads do this. Men (and women) who have not seen this play out before or who may be a bit naive and unable to imagine their spouse could be a partner in this dance may be slow to recognize it for what it is. More on the topic of honesty. It seems likely to me that Nathan targeted your wife because your wife opened the door. Maybe he had to knock first. Maybe she left it open. But the door was opened and the pursuit took hold. Or the hook found purchase. Or whatever metaphor. I am not doing well with this, but you get the picture. As MattMatt said to me very early on when I was where you are, "OP is just a shark who scented blood in the water." Or something like that. 

I thought it was clumsy and misplaced at the time, but it captured the situation pretty well. Thanks, MattMatt. Anyway, painful as it is, you have to know that about her. And if you get through this and remain married, she has to never open the door again. Or you can accept that your wife may keep an open door and that is just the reality of your marriage and your wife. [Edited for the usual typos and grammatical errors.]


----------



## destroyd

This post is a jumble of thoughts as I awoke in the night and could not sleep. 

How do we, as the husbands of a wife who is being courted at work handle it? The marriage may be stale as mine was- under the pressure of life and the working world we live in. Mortgages, job stress, kids, bills, home life, never enough money- errodes the happy home life so the wife is maybe not as enchanted with the marriage as she could be. She meets a new coworker whom she works with all-day every-day. She literally spends more time around this guy than she does the husband during the workweek. 

The guy is a professional- in his element- maybe a manager. He's funny, witty, makes plenty of money. Their relationship is defined in the context of 'working together to get hard jobs done'. They must travel together for business. I don't care how strong your marriage once was, that situation over time can affect it. Things are going to be said, stuff happens, feelings develop. Unless your wife is a hard edged cookie who is wise to the ways of the world and is supremely set in her mind to 'guard the marriage' the situation is ripe for an affair to happen. 

The husband can't compete with the fantasy that the OM offers because he's strapped at work, his kids need to go to college, and the house is falling apart 15 years down the road of a marriage where he's tried every way he can to make the wife happy- and she still wants more because that's the way she was raised- to 'want it all'. 

There has to be a better answer than to just divorce her, lose half of everything he's built in his life and move on. 

The key thing here is the marriage may be stale, but it got that way from the fruit of both the husbands and wives efforts. The WW wants to blame it all on the husband 'for not making them happy'. I realize the genders could be switched here, but we're in a thread here with a potentially WW. What we get is a wayward partner who is entitled, and thinks they deserve better, or more, than what they have had an active hand in building in a marriage. 

Sometimes, a wayward is just done with the marriage. Sometimes they just slip due to internal flaws. There seems there is no absolute answers in trying to head off an affair. 

I don't know of any force of nature that could have prevented my WW from doing what she did. 

I do know from my experiences that a potential wayward cannot be coddled. To navigate these waters you have to put on your steel pants and take care of business. OP, If you don't make hard lines in the sand and stick by them you will get walked all over and crapped on.


----------



## MAJDEATH

alte Dame said:


> Bandit's rule is what I experienced when I was younger (and that really means up to age 50). As a young woman I was pretty clueless about this. It was always a big surprise when some male 'friend' suddenly declared undying love for me.
> 
> Now that I am older, that tension is basically gone. Now, younger men either can't be bothered to give me the time of day or talk to me happily like I'm a mother-type to them.
> 
> But, seriously, when I was young, Bandit's rule applied. I seemed to know lots of men over the years who were in the friend zone who didn't plan to be there forever.


Is that why the women aged 50+ in the office are so *****y? Because they are no longer the object of the men's attentions?


----------



## MAJDEATH

Bluesclues said:


> Took me a long time to realize this fact, like 46 years, but I totally agree. But that is sort of the point with what OP posted. Nathan is laying the groundwork for the long game like a muther and I don’t think OP’s wife is seeing it that way. Because like many women, myself included, we don’t actually KNOW that ALL men want sex from us. Now she is also getting something from the relationship - but I think it is help at work and not romance. Quid pro quo isn’t on her mind at all. I know guys are like “she has to know what he wants!” Nope, there are many of us that are that naive.


I don't believe that women are that naive. Everytime a man is being nice to you, he is thinking about ...


----------



## Talker67

destroyd said:


> The husband can't compete with the fantasy that the OM offers because he's strapped at work, his kids need to go to college, and the house is falling apart 15 years down the road of a marriage where he's tried every way he can to make the wife happy- and she still wants more because that's the way she was raised- to 'want it all'.
> .



i do not believe that. SURE women/men get horny, and have sexual fantasy/thoughts about other men/women. Especially if they are getting ignored, and getting little or no sex/fun at home.

But MOST people do not want to cheat in the marriage...and will go way out of their way to fix things if they are broken. So a little willingness to communicate, willingness to up your game, trying new things....is usually all it would take to nip such an EA in the bud. 

Marriages take time and work. Do not use "i am too busy at work" as some sort of lame excuse. You can ALWAYS make some time for your spouse IF it matters to you.


----------



## personofinterest

FalCod said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree that men only become friends with women in order to get them into bed but I do agree that they don't do it to be friends. They have to be getting something out of the deal whether that's a connection to other women, emotional support, financial help, or something else.
> 
> 
> 
> Why? Do you think that the same is true for male-to-male friendships? What would happen if a guy was friends with a guy that had an operation and became a gal? Would the friendship end unless he started getting emotional support, financial help, or something else?
> 
> Do you think that women can be friends with a guy without ulterior motives?
Click to expand...


Lololololol

Does your back hurt from that contortion??


----------



## Melrose8888

destroyd said:


> This post is a jumble of thoughts as I awoke in the night and could not sleep.
> 
> How do we, as the husbands of a wife who is being courted at work handle it? The marriage may be stale as mine was- under the pressure of life and the working world we live in. Mortgages, job stress, kids, bills, home life, never enough money- errodes the happy home life so the wife is maybe not as enchanted with the marriage as she could be. She meets a new coworker whom she works with all-day every-day. She literally spends more time around this guy than she does the husband during the workweek.
> 
> The guy is a professional- in his element- maybe a manager. He's funny, witty, makes plenty of money. Their relationship is defined in the context of 'working together to get hard jobs done'. They must travel together for business. I don't care how strong your marriage once was, that situation over time can affect it. Things are going to be said, stuff happens, feelings develop. Unless your wife is a hard edged cookie who is wise to the ways of the world and is supremely set in her mind to 'guard the marriage' the situation is ripe for an affair to happen.
> 
> The husband can't compete with the fantasy that the OM offers because he's strapped at work, his kids need to go to college, and the house is falling apart 15 years down the road of a marriage where he's tried every way he can to make the wife happy- and she still wants more because that's the way she was raised- to 'want it all'.
> 
> There has to be a better answer than to just divorce her, lose half of everything he's built in his life and move on.
> 
> The key thing here is the marriage may be stale, but it got that way from the fruit of both the husbands and wives efforts. The WW wants to blame it all on the husband 'for not making them happy'. I realize the genders could be switched here, but we're in a thread here with a potentially WW. What we get is a wayward partner who is entitled, and thinks they deserve better, or more, than what they have had an active hand in building in a marriage.
> 
> Sometimes, a wayward is just done with the marriage. Sometimes they just slip due to internal flaws. There seems there is no absolute answers in trying to head off an affair.
> 
> I don't know of any force of nature that could have prevented my WW from doing what she did.
> 
> I do know from my experiences that a potential wayward cannot be coddled. To navigate these waters you have to put on your steel pants and take care of business. OP, If you don't make hard lines in the sand and stick by them you will get walked all over and crapped on.


Wow, this sounds painfully familiar. Hope you are doing well these days...?


----------



## TDSC60

No Longer Lonely Husband said:


> I read this through and Nathan is as shallow as a teaspoon of water and slicker than 10w40. If it was me I would pay Nathan a visit letting him know the next time you contact my wife I will be on your ass in a New York minute and I would strongly “encourage” him to cease and desist. But that’s just little ol me, what do I know?


It looks to me like OP's wife is encouraging contact and several times it is her who initiates contact and makes suggestions to meet for coffee and walks. OP's problem is his wife's attitude and lack of boundaries, not the other man. She likes the attention and interaction with OM.

Eventually she will like it so much that she will not shut him down when he makes a move to take it physical.


----------



## Tasorundo

Has an OP ever posted less to get a thread to 200+ posts in the infidelity section?


----------



## Bibi1031

That Nathan is a weasel and your wife is a fool for playing with fire. May she not get burned because no husband will tolerate her not putting that damn weasel in his place. He is NOT friendship material!


----------



## re16

TDSC60 said:


> She likes the attention and interaction with OM.


This is what it comes down to. She will defend her relationship with him because of this.


----------



## destroyd

I fear OP has jetted. I hope he has not investigated and uncovered worse news.


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

TDSC60 said:


> It looks to me like OP's wife is encouraging contact and several times it is her who initiates contact and makes suggestions to meet for coffee and walks. OP's problem is his wife's attitude and lack of boundaries, not the other man. She likes the attention and interaction with OM.
> 
> Eventually she will like it so much that she will not shut him down when he makes a move to take it physical.


You are correct sir, however, sometimes in addition to getting wife to walk the line, you also have to “guard your turf” if you catch my drift. I let my FWW’s POSOM after Dday know if he came anywhere near my wife there would be hell to pay on his part. I get the vibe that ol’ Nathan is grooming his wife.


----------



## CountessJax

If it hasn't already been said (not read the whole thread yet), there are a suspicious amount of days where it looks like texts have been deleted in between. You can somewhat tell because of the way the conversation flows that something was said that is now missing.


----------



## syhoybenden

OP stopped coming to TAM 5 days ago.


----------



## BarbedFenceRider

Bluesclues said:


> Took me a long time to realize this fact, like 46 years, but I totally agree. But that is sort of the point with what OP posted. Nathan is laying the groundwork for the long game like a muther and I don’t think OP’s wife is seeing it that way. Because like many women, myself included, we don’t actually KNOW that ALL men want sex from us. Now she is also getting something from the relationship - but I think it is help at work and not romance. Quid pro quo isn’t on her mind at all. I know guys are like “she has to know what he wants!” Nope, there are many of us that are that naive.


Blues, Bandit and others were right about mine....

And I'm a believer. The walking fat hard on that was after my wife was doing the SAME crap. My wife was in denial till I had a deposit down on an apartment in another city and was throwing bags into my truck. Red pill swallowed long and hard. 2x4 smacked upside my head gave me clarity to do what was right for me. In my case, wifey decided grass wasn't greener. And Fat Ass decided to run away. Literally, runs away at the store when I come in. Hilarity ensues. But you have to be willing to look YOURSELF in the mirror. And not see her. Period. It's scary, but it's necessary.

BTW...This goes the other way as well. Women can do the same thing to dog men. You will thank yourself ten thousand times over.


----------



## SunCMars

I agree with @bandit.45 .....

Can I whip out the but, uh, butt!

-----> But, not all men will act on their desires. 

Many women also desire men, some cheat, most don't.

Most have had secret desires for men that they will never admit, nor act on.

It is human nature.

Desire is a necessary thing for 'Survival of the Species'.

I am a dog. 

So, am I supposed to be ashamed of this?

........................................................................................................
I was going to mention Red Dog...he was a man, is now a dog. He is a better man....now that he is a dog.
Huh?




[THM]- The Typist I


----------



## MAJDEATH

There are people you think about, and people you act apon. And I think men have more trouble differentiating between being nice/polite and being interested.


----------



## StillSearching

MAJDEATH said:


> There are people you think about, and people you act apon. And I think men have more trouble differentiating between being nice/polite and being interested.


They haven't read MMSL


----------



## smoothieking

Hi, haven't been able to post lately. I short, I confronted her about the situation the other day and we walked through the text history and talked about my concerns and appropriate boundaries. Many of the texts required the right context which she was able to walk me through by showing work emails and such with real proof. She agreed some of the texts were inappropriate and unnecessary and understood my point of view and we talked about how it would look and feel if the shoe was on the other foot. She offered up without hesitation to keep all of the discussions purely around work, and then no contact after quitting in 4 to 6 weeks. Between the monitoring of Calls,, texts, emails, VAR,, and her responses, everything added up and there is no evidence of any type of PA or sexual attention from her side. She indicated that OM was confiding in her about his wife because she recently cheated on him, which I thought was kind of ironic. She has started reading the not just friends book to further understand my perspective and help us set good boundaries, work and socially. I brought the issue up in my 1 on 1 therapy session and that was helpful in terms of guiding the approach for confronting her about it. All in all the discussion went well and I am convinced that this is not an EA or PA
She does know that meeting him for drinks was hurtful and should have been disclosed. Again, evidence was provided that these were working meetings after visits with off-site clients. Several of the other inappropriate texts were commented on, and we agreed that we would continue to discuss the nature of those in our joint counseling sessions coming up. Of course I will continue to monitor for a bit to keep myself at ease, but I have high confidence now that this situation is not a problem or a threat. I know several people will reply back with doomsday comments on how I'm getting snowed over, etc, but this is proof that not every situation is an EA/PA. Thanks to those with the helpful commentary. Of. Course if anything changes I'll be sure to revisit this thread for a full dose of "I told you so! "


----------



## Andy1001

smoothieking said:


> Hi, haven't been able to post lately. I short, I confronted her about the situation the other day and we walked through the text history and talked about my concerns and appropriate boundaries. Many of the texts required the right context which she was able to walk me through by showing work emails and such with real proof. She agreed some of the texts were inappropriate and unnecessary and understood my point of view and we talked about how it would look and feel if the shoe was on the other foot. She offered up without hesitation to keep all of the discussions purely around work, and then no contact after quitting in 4 to 6 weeks. Between the monitoring of Calls,, texts, emails, VAR,, and her responses, everything added up and there is no evidence of any type of PA or sexual attention from her side. She indicated that OM was confiding in her about his wife because she recently cheated on him, which I thought was kind of ironic. She has started reading the not just friends book to further understand my perspective and help us set good boundaries, work and socially. I brought the issue up in my 1 on 1 therapy session and that was helpful in terms of guiding the approach for confronting her about it. All in all the discussion went well and I am convinced that this is not an EA or PA
> She does know that meeting him for drinks was hurtful and should have been disclosed. Again, evidence was provided that these were working meetings after visits with off-site clients. Several of the other inappropriate texts were commented on, and we agreed that we would continue to discuss the nature of those in our joint counseling sessions coming up. Of course I will continue to monitor for a bit to keep myself at ease, but I have high confidence now that this situation is not a problem or a threat. I know several people will reply back with doomsday comments on how I'm getting snowed over, etc, but this is proof that not every situation is an EA/PA. Thanks to those with the helpful commentary. Of. Course if anything changes I'll be sure to revisit this thread for a full dose of "I told you so! "


Because your wife wasn’t hiding her messages to Nathan you were in a different position than most people posting here with similar stories. Other than your wife learning what boundaries in a marriage mean I think you’ll be ok. 
Good luck in the future.


----------



## notmyjamie

Sounds like things are going well and that your wife is open to ensuring things stay that way. I'm happy to hear she did not get super defensive but instead talked things out and admitted that some things were inappropriate and that she would have been upset if the roles were reversed. 

Learning that Nathan's wife cheated recently makes me wonder if he was targeting your wife for a revenge affair or just really needed a friend and a women's input on their issues. I have a male neighbor who frequently asks me for my advice on the issues he's having with his wife. We've known each other for years and he's never tried to move things past friendship. Or, perhaps, he made the whole thing up as a way to lure your wife in. In the end, his motivations don't really matter as your wife has agreed with you that things were stepping over a line.

I wish you much luck and I applaud your ability to keep your calm and talk things out with your wife calmly. I'm sure that made a huge difference. Thanks for coming back and updating...it's always nice to hear a happy ending to a story!!!


----------



## SunCMars

bandit.45 said:


> You're right. I should have said all straight men are that way.


NNGG.....Grrr!

I know quite a few who are not dogs.

I admit, they are passive, non confrontational and they are rather bumps on the log....too.


----------



## Marc878

Good job on bringing it up. She needs to under stand this guy was fishing and his marital problems are his to deal with. That's not her job.


----------



## VladDracul

Bluesclues said:


> Because like many women, myself included, we don’t actually KNOW that ALL men want sex from us.


Blues, any woman within six standard deviation of the mean has any number of men within throwing distance that wants to have sex with them. All I need to prove my point is for someone to take a gander at the porno sites that offer up "models" of any type woman. (tall, short, skinny, fat, pretty, average, homely, you name it)


----------



## Harken Banks

Sounds positive. Good luck, smoothieking.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

smoothieking said:


> Hi, haven't been able to post lately. I short, I confronted her about the situation the other day and we walked through the text history and talked about my concerns and appropriate boundaries. Many of the texts required the right context which she was able to walk me through by showing work emails and such with real proof. She agreed some of the texts were inappropriate and unnecessary and understood my point of view and we talked about how it would look and feel if the shoe was on the other foot. She offered up without hesitation to keep all of the discussions purely around work, and then no contact after quitting in 4 to 6 weeks. Between the monitoring of Calls,, texts, emails, VAR,, and her responses, everything added up and there is no evidence of any type of PA or sexual attention from her side. She indicated that OM was confiding in her about his wife because she recently cheated on him, which I thought was kind of ironic. She has started reading the not just friends book to further understand my perspective and help us set good boundaries, work and socially. I brought the issue up in my 1 on 1 therapy session and that was helpful in terms of guiding the approach for confronting her about it. All in all the discussion went well and I am convinced that this is not an EA or PA


It's amazing how she just had an answer for *everything* - backed up with calendars and emails and 'evidence' to prove everything is work related, etc. etc. Was meeting him at stairway all 'work related,' too?



> She does know that meeting him for drinks was hurtful and should have been disclosed. Again, evidence was provided that these were working meetings after visits with off-site clients.


So why LIE to you about it then? If they were all such innocent 'work' meetings as she's _claiming_, then why on earth LIE to you about them? She's got an awful lot of 'evidence' to explain away all her shady behavior, but no valid reason for why she kept* lying* to you about her supposed 'innocent work meetings.' What was her REASON for lying to you in the first place? yeah, yeah yeah, she's admitted she lied and it was wrong, but what's the REAL reason she lied to you? That is what you really need to be looking at, not her polished little presentation of emails and calendar entries and all her convenient 'proof' of supposed client dinners.

Next, as another poster said pages back, those 'gap's of radio silence in between their days of constant texting are highly suspicious. Even though it's probably never been a habit of yours to look through her phone as a general rule, that doesn't mean she's stupid enough to COUNT on that and would *leave* really incriminating texts on her phone that you MIGHT come across. Only a fool would do that. She likely has lots of deleted texts you know nothing about. If you're smart, you'll get yourself FoneLab or DrFone or one of those software packages that let you un-delete texts, and you'll see what she's been deleting. Not nearly all of it, but if you're lucky, you'll get back just enough.



> I know several people will reply back with doomsday comments on how I'm getting snowed over, etc, but this is proof that not every situation is an EA/PA. Thanks to those with the helpful commentary. Of. Course if anything changes I'll be sure to revisit this thread for a full dose of "I told you so! "


This isn't 'proof' of anything. You just sound like every other poster before you who was also lulled into a false sense of security.

I've read your story *24,368 times *over the last 20 years. A poster shows up with seriously shady behavior they're very suspicious and concerned about, and then they spend the next few days and weeks finding even more shady behavior. They eventually confront their spouse and lo and behold, all their suspicions were wrong! Their cheating spouse has an innocent answer for everything and all this angst was for nothing!

Why, it's a Christmas miracle! 

You've even tried to justify her lies to you about meeting up with this guy several times and lying to you about it. You actually claim that she "didn't really lie to me about it....she just simply didn't disclose it to me." 

_Really_, OP?

I think the sad and simple truth is that you're desperately hoping (as we all would in your place, I'm sure) for things to go back to normal and for all this ugly stuff to go away, and you're more than open to believing anything she tells you in order to get to that place. More, you're even willing to lie to *yourself* and compromise your own values of what you'll accept - like making excuses for her lying to you - if it helps to get you back to a state of ignorant bliss. I get it, I do. It's called 'rug-sweeping.'

So yes, this is the doomsday post you said you'd get. But that's because you'll likely be back in the future. Maybe a month from now, maybe 6 months from now, maybe 2 years. But you'll be back and the first thing you'll say is, "you were all right - why couldn't I see what you all saw?"

Sadly, it happens all the time.


----------



## Tobyboy

I don’t believe the OM will go quietly into the night. He’s invested to much time and effort grooming your wife for that to happen.
This is all classic “player” M.O. Start out by showing undivided attention. Get them to “open up” by confessing something personal(wife supposedly cheated). Do the hot/cold dance with contact( you can see this was working with your wife as she was “missing” the attention after a lapse in their communication). 

Expect things to ramp up between them as the work relationship is comes to end soon.


----------



## syhoybenden

She'sStillGotIt said:


> lulled into a false sense of security.
> 
> 
> 
> Why, it's a Christmas miracle!


Bingo.


----------



## stro

I’m glad you talked it out with her. I kind of thought that’s how that conversation would go. I hope she understands the importance of boundaries now and also that Nathan was playing the long game. It sucks that friendships have to be so complicated among men and women but that’s the nature of men and women I guess. 

And the thing about the doomsday people on this forum is that when most people come to TAM for this type of issue, their spouse is usually well into some type of affair. It usually plays out exactly as predicted by those posters. 

Stories like yours are very much the exception to the rule here. I’m glad this one was though. Good luck to you and your wife. 

Also, can I encourage you to explore your wife’s love languages and meet her where she is? You will love the results. And keep communicating!


----------



## Robert22205

I'm sorry you're in this mess. Trust is very difficult to regain even when they appear to respond appropriately when confronted. 
Her words (initial response) was very encouraging but from here on it's her actions that matter. 

She explained the relationship as innocent by disclosing emails and additional information. That was her response to the EA or PA. However, once the relationship slips into inappropriate personal issues (which she appears to agree to) it's too late to continue the relationship as 'just friends'. If she is truly committed to her marriage vs the COW (and after reading Not Just Friends) then she should voluntarily stop all non business interaction. Anything less is a red flag.

Rather than waiting until after she starts working from home. While you're out of town (and she is working with the COW) this is an opportunity to observe if they will take things underground. Why would she continue coffee, lunch, walks etc (and risk her marriage) if they are just friends? Surely there are other people to chat with at work than just the two of them. Consider hiring a PI to observe her at lunch time. 

It's so typical for the OM to approach someone else's wife with his marital problems (connecting emotionally by seeking her sympathy) or the WW attempting to minimize an inappropriate relationship when exposed - that it's a huge huge trigger for us. For me it is anyway.

In addition, in my admitted biased view, the story that his wife recently cheated on him hit me as a refinement of the OM's predatory technique or alternatively as a refinement by your wife at minimizing the inappropriate relationship.

Be aware that you can easily verify his/her story at any time by speaking with the OM's wife. 
Would your wife be opposed to you calling the OM's wife?
I'm surprised that there's nothing in his texts to hint that his wife cheated. 

Although she still has to work with him for 4-6 weeks, has she agreed to go NC within the workplace?

Specifically,

- has she agreed to no more coffee dates?
- no more drinks with him?
- no lunch dates or walks?
- no more discussing his personal problems (i.e., refer him to IC)?

Finally, somewhere in all the texts they were planning on leaving work early (i.e., from their offices vs off site).
Did she explain the nature of that date?

My last thought is that it doesn't take a lot of time to read Not Just Friends. Just reading the first 15 pages should rock her world in terms of her behavior - and a remorseful spouse would share her reaction with you.

Please continue to check in and share. Everything you're experiencing etc ...the good the bad and the confusion/uncertainty - helps the next person.


----------



## MAJDEATH

The God's honest truth here is that you will never know the whole story, just the parts she wants to share with you. You have to decide if you can live with that - factoring in all other relevant benefits/detriments in your life with her.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

@smoothieking

Did your wife acknowledge that the OM was likely trying to groom her, or did she try to defend him?


----------



## syhoybenden

Rubix Cubed said:


> @smoothieking
> 
> Did your wife acknowledge that the OM was likely trying to groom her, or did she try to defend him?



If it was the former then you should seek him out and put your foot up his anus.

If it was the latter then I would venture that she is hiding something, a big something.


----------



## TRy

smoothieking said:


> She agreed some of the texts were inappropriate and unnecessary and understood my point of view.





smoothieking said:


> She indicated that OM was confiding in her about his wife because she recently cheated on him, which I thought was kind of ironic.


 If she agreed that some of the texts were “inappropriate”, and indicated that the OM was confiding to her about the OM’s wife cheating on him, then she just confirmed to you that she had an inappropriate relationship with the OM, who was telling her that he was unhappy in his marriage and may soon be available to her for a new romantic relationship. Add in the volume of texts and meetings, to the lies by omission to keep the nature of her relationship with him a secret from you, and you have a textbook definition of the early stages of an emotional affair (EA). Studies show that most people in EAs do not realize that they are in one.

You need to not sweep this under the rug, and you need to treat this as the EA that it is. This is not doomsday, as you may have caught it in time, but you must both acknowledge the reality of it so that you can take the correct actions moving forward.

One more thing. Ask your wife what did she offer the OM that would induce him to tell her about his wife’s cheating? Comfort, reassurance, experience in dealing with cheating? Also cheating is not something that you discuss with just any coworker, as a married woman why was she so personally close to him that they both felt that he could confided in her on such a topic?


----------



## Malaise

TRy said:


> If she agreed that some of the texts were “inappropriate”, and indicated that the OM was confiding to her about the OM’s wife cheating on him, then she just confirmed to you that she had an inappropriate relationship with the OM, who was telling her that he was unhappy in his marriage and may soon be available to her for a new romantic relationship. Add in the volume of texts and meetings, to the lies by omission to keep the nature of her relationship with him a secret from you, and you have a textbook definition of the early stages of an emotional affair (EA). Studies show that most people in EAs do not realize that they are in one.
> 
> You need to not sweep this under the rug, and you need to treat this as the EA that it is. This is not doomsday, as you may have caught it in time, but you must both acknowledge the reality of it so that you can take the correct actions moving forward.
> 
> One more thing. Ask your wife what did she offer the OM that would induce him to tell her about his wife’s cheating? Comfort, reassurance, experience in dealing with cheating? Also cheating is not something that you discuss with just any coworker, as a married woman why was she so personally close to him that they both felt that he could confided in her on such a topic?



OP, you still don't know everything.


----------



## MAJDEATH

Malaise said:


> OP, you still don't know everything.


And he never will IMO. The ladies always justify it with: I don't want you to freak out, you will always blame me, you will keep bringing it up, you might leave me, it's better for both of us, etc.


----------



## drifting on

Smoothie

A couple of issues I see ahead for you.

Lying is no problem, hence the meetings in a pub. You said these should have been disclosed, what was her reasoning for not? Other then to say she would be late. See, if you have nothing to hide, you don’t, but she did, and also lied.

Communication, ok, no more texting Nathan to meet, walk, go for drinks, and on and on, instead she will use the work phones you can’t monitor. As for email, that too, then immediately delete it before comi g home to show you no contact. 

Boundaries, currently your wife has none, ask how she would be feeling roles reversed. Upset? Now tell her you will only communicate with this person during work hours, and after you leave, no more contact. Your wife would not allow this, trust me, I’ve done that.

Counseling, end any couples counseling until she no longer works with Nathan. If she works with him she communicates with him. Also add how she told you she would like to work closer with Nathan if she gets the other job. Remind her how happy that would have made her.

Marriage, Nathan wasn’t the only one complaining, she complained to him about you. Nathan knows far more about your marriage then you do, and what she doesn’t like about you. Yep, only know this all too well too. 

Recovery, not a chance until she is in full no contact. This means gone from her job. Also understand that Nathan knows that you know of their texts, they will also have the same exact stories. 

Consequences, too late for that now, what you should have done is leave a copy of every text message printed out, in an envelope, and on your kitchen table for her to find on a Friday night. On top of the envelope your wedding band with a note, Hope you enjoyed your dates. Go dark and leave the home for a weekend, her explanations would have been much different then what you got. 

I know this all too well, my wife had a workplace affair. Trust me that on those walks and having coffee physical touch was used, maybe not sex, but definitely physical touching. This is what you will never know, never be able to prove. Working together means they can spend quite a bit of time together, even though she doesn’t rely or need him for work as you say, but they sure made quite a bit of time for themselves, didn’t they? Good luck, you are trying expose and terminate a relationship your wife cultivated as much as Nathan, if she didn’t agree or suggest to quit immediately it will carry on regardless of your actions. Your best move now is to set up a dinner date with Nathan’s wife telling her you want to surprise Nathan with helping your wife so well at work. Don’t tell your wife either, and have another copy of the texts printed out. You four can then discuss the dates they had over dinner and afterwards ask your wife if she understands you now? My guess is she protects Nathan and becomes angry with you.


----------



## ABHale

I have just re-read your initial post with all the text messages. I believe she dazzled you with bull****. You heard exactly what you wanted to hear to know that there wasn’t a problem.

Going out for coffee, walks, lunch, and after work drinks are all dates. I don’t care if she was able to back stuff up with emails and other information it was all to confuse you and make you doubt your own senses. 

Best of luck but I believe you will be back here in a few months for that I told you so.


----------



## Malaise

And, btw, the only proof you have OM's wife was cheating is...?

Your own W who is a tad light in the honesty department.

So what did they really discuss?


----------



## Robert22205

Following your confrontation it's now about observing her actions whether she respects the boundaries you identified. 

IMO it's a mistake not to get the OM's spouse involved immediately. The OM's spouse is your only potential ally.
The most common mistake is to fear that you are over reacting.
Your wife doesn't 'need' this guy for business. He doesn't actually work with her.
You don't owe the OM anything and if he is embarrassed and stops talking to your wife - isn't that a good thing?

While you'll out of town, hire a PI to check up a few times around lunch (money well spent). 

Make it clear that only her future actions (not her explanations or justifications) are relevant going forward. Lunches, coffee, walks and/or drinks are no longer appropriate because they aren't just friends. She corrupted the friendship with deceit & discussing marriage problems. Advise her that there will not be a second chance and that further lunches, coffee, walks and/or drinks is evidence that she chose the COW over her husband (and your marriage is over).


----------



## No Longer Lonely Husband

Remain vigilant. Do not let your guard down, having an FWW who had a workplace affair, I realize how easy they are to conceal.
IMHO this went too smoothly from what I glean from your post. All of what you posted leads me to believe that an EA was going on for sure, particularly the texts and going out for drinks after work. He was grooming her and in a short period of time had you not acted it would have been a full PA.

Do not EVER let her know about VARs.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Well, didnt she wrap THAT up into a neat, tidy little package? The big question... did she agree to going no contact with him?


----------



## TDSC60

ABHale said:


> I have just re-read your initial post with all the text messages. I believe she dazzled you with bull****. You heard exactly what you wanted to hear to know that there wasn’t a problem.
> 
> Going out for coffee, walks, lunch, and after work drinks are all dates. I don’t care if she was able to back stuff up with emails and other information it was all to confuse you and make you doubt your own senses.
> 
> Best of luck but I believe you will be back here in a few months for that I told you so.


Through out the texting she initiated the contact several times. She was also the one who suggested coffee, and walks several times.

The one that bothers me the most is the "leaving later than planned" text when she was really out for drinks with Nathan. Why did she not just text "Going with Nathan for drinks"?

She knew she was crossing a line and did not want you to know. While it was not a bold faced lie, it was not the whole truth. She rugswept this away by admitting it was wrong of her. That is typical cheater procedure. You had proof of the incident...she could not claim it did not happen....so she admits that it was wrong. The problem is, what else is she doing that she knows is wrong but you have no proof of? Answer..she just doesn't tell you.

I hope you caught this in time, but I am not sure.

The problem is that now she knows you are monitoring her texts. If she is up to something, she will be deleting texts.

It might do you good to get a text recovery program and use it for a few months.


----------



## x598

OP

so are the newly found explanations of all the innocent shenanigans going on between them explain the "communications problem" with your wife/marriage? I mean seriously how do you communicate properly with an admitted liar?


we "doomsayers" are not buying the tidy little package for a reason......and that is that you are missing the big picture here. Sure she _probablyhasn't shagged mr wonderful...but all you really did was dodge a bullet. her story doesn't solve or explain anything other then package it up in a way to get you offer her back and quiet your suspicions that brought you here in the first place.


her behavior/actions now and moving forward will mean infinitely more then anything she has said to cover her tracks at this point. unfortunately she now knows your radar is on "high alert" and may be even more guarded in her "commination's nirvana" with Mr wonderful.

this isn't over._


----------



## OnTheFly

x598 said:


> this isn't over.


Possibly.

However, having gone through this process, he should be more highly tuned to future shenanigans. Sure, she could go further underground with the next one, but the script doesn't change.

I remain cautiously optimistic the future is good for these two.


----------



## sa58

smoothieking said:


> Hi, haven't been able to post lately. I short, I confronted her about the situation the other day and we walked through the text history and talked about my concerns and appropriate boundaries. Many of the texts required the right context which she was able to walk me through by showing work emails and such with real proof. She agreed some of the texts were inappropriate and unnecessary and understood my point of view and we talked about how it would look and feel if the shoe was on the other foot. She offered up without hesitation to keep all of the discussions purely around work, and then no contact after quitting in 4 to 6 weeks. Between the monitoring of Calls,, texts, emails, VAR,, and her responses, everything added up and there is no evidence of any type of PA or sexual attention from her side. She indicated that OM was confiding in her about his wife because she recently cheated on him, which I thought was kind of ironic. She has started reading the not just friends book to further understand my perspective and help us set good boundaries, work and socially. I brought the issue up in my 1 on 1 therapy session and that was helpful in terms of guiding the approach for confronting her about it. All in all the discussion went well and I am convinced that this is not an EA or PA
> She does know that meeting him for drinks was hurtful and should have been disclosed. Again, evidence was provided that these were working meetings after visits with off-site clients. Several of the other inappropriate texts were commented on, and we agreed that we would continue to discuss the nature of those in our joint counseling sessions coming up. Of course I will continue to monitor for a bit to keep myself at ease, but I have high confidence now that this situation is not a problem or a threat. I know several people will reply back with doomsday comments on how I'm getting snowed over, etc, but this is proof that not every situation is an EA/PA. Thanks to those with the helpful commentary. Of. Course if anything changes I'll be sure to revisit this thread for a full dose of "I told you so! "


Glad that you confronted her about this. That is a positive step in the right direction for
your entire relationship. This will help with the communication problem that you said both
of you were having. In the future if you feel something isn't right speak up and have her do
the same. She agreed that some of the texts were inappropriate and unnecessary then I would
wonder why she sent them to begin with ? She also knows meeting him for drinks was wrong then 
why did she do that also ? Basically she is admitting to doing things she knew were wrong and that 
you know about. You may have caught this in time or she is only telling you what you want to hear
and have proof of. As others have said you will never fully know everything. Unless she is required to
why not go no contact now? She is not his supervisor or anything, just works in the same building correct ?

Have her speak directly to him about the inappropriate drinks and texts in front of you. ( in person or phone )
You will at least know he has been told and maybe understands to back off !! Correct ? 
It doesn't have to include anyone else but you three. Him discussing his wife's affair ( if true)
with your wife is way, way over the line. If she was listening and their for him then 
YES there is an emotional connection!! The I know how you feel, and I am
sorry can I help in any way type thing. If you and her are going to counseling
then him and his wife can or he can.Your wife is not his counselor or confidant. 
She is a professional and they should have kept and keep it that way.
He is emotionally attracted to your wife for this very reason !! 

She may or may not be EA but drinks really not just an I am sorry type of thing!!
It was headed toward something else, it was a date not work related !! 
No other way to describe it. She went on a date with him, sorry that is what 
it was.

As I said you may have caught this before it became more than it should be. For you and your wife's sake I 
hope so. You may have prevented her from doing something she would only regret later. Affairs never turn into full time relationships only broken families. I encourage you to speak up
from now on and do not hold anything in. She will understand this and believe
it or no, if done correctly see that she has a strong husband who cares and 
will speak his mind. It is what many couples lack now COMMUNICATION !!!


----------



## Tobyboy

You’ll know if communication between them continues by her moods. Distant, sad, depressed, even physically sick is good(in my book) means that she’s withdrawing from the addiction of all the attention/validation she was getting from the OM. The flip side.......if she’s acting normal or even overly happy......then I’d be very concerned that contact continues.


----------



## alte Dame

I think you have some cognitive misfirings here.

Her admission that at least some of her behavior has been inappropriate is not an explanation for it. It is not exoneration. It is not a solution.

'Did you beat up that boy, Johnny?' 'Yes, I did, but I now see it as inappropriate.' Does society accept that as the final word re Johnny's bad behavior? No, it doesn't. We want real explanations and real consequences.

Admitting that you crossed the line doesn't fix the fundamental problem. Asking the 'whys' of it gets much closer to a solution, imo.

I know that it is satisfying to clear the air, but it doesn't sound like you've really done that. If you had, you would have an explanation for the lying and constant attention paid to another man.

Sorry.

To you I am a doomsayer, but I don't think you've heard the last of Nathan (who, by the way, was using one of the oldest tricks in the cheating handbook: 'I need to talk to you about my marital problems. Can you lend an ear?' It's as predictable as 'we just did it 2 times.'


----------



## sa58

In case you missed it in my long post

Have her call him or go speak to him in person.
She needs to tell him with you present that 
the drinks and inappropriate texts messages 
stop now!! 

See how they react then, if she will 
even do it? If not maybe an answer you been 
looking for.

If she knows she was wrong then she should
have no problem doing this. She is leaving anyways 
in a few weeks anyways. So what if she makes him
mad!! No emotional connection there ?

I am not a doom and gloom person
just hoping you caught this in time


----------



## Marc878

If you leave embers glowing they can reignite.
@alte Dame is right. She needs to take a look at why she allowed this into your marriage.

Finish the job. You and your marriage will be better off


----------



## [email protected]

It's an A, and I'd bet you really know it it. I'd have dumped her.


----------



## NJ2

Have to say ..... my h said he would keep the texting to a minimum and only about work- pretty sure he didn't- the texts went to 0 for about 6 months then the odd day he forgot to delete where there would be 20 texts and a couple of calls... then almost 0 then a week where he forgot to delete- 135 texts.....

Nothing more than what you are getting but it was secretive and deceptive and hurtful to me.

He even went so far as to use an office phone so I wouldn't see it on his cell log.... he forgot to hang up with me when he called her- he left a message saying he didn't want her to get in trouble but blah.....blah

And of course then he lied about it..just saying


----------



## Bibi1031

Well how nice for the weasel. You just let her off the hook and this will go underground. She was giving a howorker much more attention than to you and the kids too. If that doesn't stink of EA I don't know what does.

She asked to go out with him for drinks and hid it from you. That is a big lie of omission and a dangerous one too. She put him first over you. If that ain't serious I don't know what is. 

I'm sorry, but this stinks of rug sweeping and her getting away with playing with fire. You think your sitch is different, but it surely ain't. She lied to you dude! She went out for drinks with howorker and gave you the lame excuse that it was work related. Lame, lame excuse!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

She'sStillGotIt said:


> It's amazing how she just had an answer for *everything* - backed up with calendars and emails and 'evidence' to prove everything is work related, etc. etc. Was meeting him at stairway all 'work related,' too?
> 
> So why LIE to you about it then? If they were all such innocent 'work' meetings as she's _claiming_, then why on earth LIE to you about them? She's got an awful lot of 'evidence' to explain away all her shady behavior, but no valid reason for why she kept* lying* to you about her supposed 'innocent work meetings.' What was her REASON for lying to you in the first place? yeah, yeah yeah, she's admitted she lied and it was wrong, but what's the REAL reason she lied to you? That is what you really need to be looking at, not her polished little presentation of emails and calendar entries and all her convenient 'proof' of supposed client dinners.
> 
> Next, as another poster said pages back, those 'gap's of radio silence in between their days of constant texting are highly suspicious. Even though it's probably never been a habit of yours to look through her phone as a general rule, that doesn't mean she's stupid enough to COUNT on that and would *leave* really incriminating texts on her phone that you MIGHT come across. Only a fool would do that. She likely has lots of deleted texts you know nothing about. If you're smart, you'll get yourself FoneLab or DrFone or one of those software packages that let you un-delete texts, and you'll see what she's been deleting. Not nearly all of it, but if you're lucky, you'll get back just enough.
> 
> This isn't 'proof' of anything. You just sound like every other poster before you who was also lulled into a false sense of security.
> 
> I've read your story *24,368 times *over the last 20 years. A poster shows up with seriously shady behavior they're very suspicious and concerned about, and then they spend the next few days and weeks finding even more shady behavior. They eventually confront their spouse and lo and behold, all their suspicions were wrong! Their cheating spouse has an innocent answer for everything and all this angst was for nothing!
> 
> Why, it's a Christmas miracle!
> 
> You've even tried to justify her lies to you about meeting up with this guy several times and lying to you about it. You actually claim that she "didn't really lie to me about it....she just simply didn't disclose it to me."
> 
> _Really_, OP?
> 
> I think the sad and simple truth is that you're desperately hoping (as we all would in your place, I'm sure) for things to go back to normal and for all this ugly stuff to go away, and you're more than open to believing anything she tells you in order to get to that place. More, you're even willing to lie to *yourself* and compromise your own values of what you'll accept - like making excuses for her lying to you - if it helps to get you back to a state of ignorant bliss. I get it, I do. It's called 'rug-sweeping.'
> 
> So yes, this is the doomsday post you said you'd get. But that's because you'll likely be back in the future. Maybe a month from now, maybe 6 months from now, maybe 2 years. But you'll be back and the first thing you'll say is, "you were all right - why couldn't I see what you all saw?"
> 
> Sadly, it happens all the time.


This......sorry.....This. I give you kudos for coming back. 

Emails and texts, all of which you have no control over, are used as proof. 

Good luck and I truly hope it is legit. One of the reasons I left was stories like this one. I hated, still do, the hundreds of men and women blindsided by the full truth later on.


Edit:

You went to a counselor and she still lied..........
.
Please, don't be silly, she CANNOT talk to this man for any reason anymore. If you believe the "keep it strictly work related" I have the winning lottery numbers for $100.


----------



## destroyd

SK, now you are right where I was after the first confrontation- thinking I had 'only' an emotional affair and some non-truths to deal with. I wish you the best, but man you have got a long row to hoe in my opinion. You now have to play the long game to know if you were told the truth, or a gold plated bunch of lies. I hope your story turns out better than mine did. 

I can tell you this. They will continue to talk at work as long as he and she are there . If they work together still, they now have a comraderie focused around keeping the wool pulled over your eyes and they will joke, and laugh about it. Even if they are not physical, that kind of emotional crap will continue and promote distance between you and her. 

Get ready for Mr. Wonderful leaving the office to NOT actually happen and her to just expect you to suck it up. 

You should strategically spot check with the var. 

You should make yourself not a stranger to her workplace- just stop by now and then and gauge everyone in the office's reactions. If you show up and everyone stops what they are doing and looks at you with raised eyebrows, consider that they know something. 

Consider talking to OM's wife face to face. Screw what it does to him. You owe him zero consideration. 

Consider talking to OM face to face. I personally kick myself daily ever since I first learned of excessive texts for not having the presence of mind and the balls to go get in that bastard's face and politely, but firmly point him down the road when it could have done any good. (After he's used her like a garden implement, it's then too late). 

Expect and keep an eye out for a burner phone- cause you ain't gonna catch her on anything you can monitor ever again unless she just gets to where she doesn't care anymore. The spot checks with the var are to maybe alert you to her using a burner. Mine would not talk on a burner, but on the var you could barely hear the tactile touch on her button presses as she texted like mad on it. She kept the burner at work- never brought it home- used it only for texting to keep in touch and arrange meet-ups at lunchtime. 

Consider a gps, but if she's like mine, after my first confrontation her car was never taken anywhere ever again- she always got in his car. You may catch them leaving her car somewhere off-site at lunchtime so as to not alert other co-workers though. 

Watch her google timeline for her whereabouts. However, understand it is not a precision instrument- the location can show quite a bit of error at times. Other times, it can put her within a few feet of actual. Be aware as well that she can leave her phone at work, and run off for a tryst, then hurry back to it. 

Be aware that she can set her phone to 'schedule' texts to be sent you while she is away from her phone. Lookout for odd texts, or texts to you that don't 'mesh' well in the context of things. 

The old "my phone was dead" trick, or "my phone isn't charging right- I don't know what's wrong with it" shenanigans. All designed to buy her a 'window of time'. 

Consider that in almost any town, unless it is very rural, there are several motels within walking distance or a 5 min drive from most places of work. 

Just know, that if she wants to, she can cheat nine ways to Sunday and hide it from you. Only extreme measures (read expensive) will catch her if she gets educated on the finer points of opsec.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

sa58 said:


> Have her speak directly to him about the inappropriate drinks and texts in front of you. ( in person or phone )
> You will at least know he has been told and maybe understands to back off !! Correct ?


We all know that any phone calls she makes to her boyfriend - while her husband stands there and listens - is just going to be one big dog and pony show put on purely for the OP's benefit.  The first chance his lying wife gets, she'll just apologize to "Nathan" and tell him her paranoid, pain the ass husband MADE her do it. 



> He is emotionally attracted to your wife for this very reason !!


And she's just as attracted to him. Some folks are acting as though she's some kind of innocent little ingenue who's being 'groomed' by this married predator, but she's *not* innocent. She knows EXACTLY what she's been doing - and has happily lied to the OP over and over in order to do it.



> It is what many couples lack now COMMUNICATION !!!


Lack of communication isn't the problem here. Her constant LYING is the problem.


----------



## manwithnoname

I'm thinking a talk with OM's wife will reveal a marriage different than what it was made out to be.

Also, going out to drinks should not have just been disclosed, it shouldn't have happened at all.

The content of the texts is a little too much for two people who don't directly work together all the time.

I'd look to recover deleted texts, because if something was/is going on, her response would have probably been the same when you confronted.


----------



## StillSearching

They Shagging!
No doubt.


----------



## Nucking Futs

smoothieking said:


> Hi, haven't been able to post lately. I short, I confronted her about the situation the other day and we walked through the text history and talked about my concerns and appropriate boundaries. Many of the texts required the right context which she was able to walk me through by showing work emails and such with real proof. She agreed some of the texts were inappropriate and unnecessary and understood my point of view and we talked about how it would look and feel if the shoe was on the other foot. She offered up without hesitation to keep all of the discussions purely around work, and then no contact after quitting in 4 to 6 weeks. Between the monitoring of Calls,, texts, emails, VAR,, and her responses, everything added up and there is no evidence of any type of PA or sexual attention from her side. She indicated that OM was confiding in her about his wife because she recently cheated on him, which I thought was kind of ironic. She has started reading the not just friends book to further understand my perspective and help us set good boundaries, work and socially. I brought the issue up in my 1 on 1 therapy session and that was helpful in terms of guiding the approach for confronting her about it. All in all the discussion went well and I am convinced that this is not an EA or PA
> She does know that meeting him for drinks was hurtful and should have been disclosed. Again, evidence was provided that these were working meetings after visits with off-site clients. Several of the other inappropriate texts were commented on, and we agreed that we would continue to discuss the nature of those in our joint counseling sessions coming up. Of course I will continue to monitor for a bit to keep myself at ease, but I have high confidence now that this situation is not a problem or a threat. I know several people will reply back with doomsday comments on how I'm getting snowed over, etc, but this is proof that not every situation is an EA/PA. Thanks to those with the helpful commentary. Of. Course if anything changes I'll be sure to revisit this thread for a full dose of "I told you so! "


OP has not been back since he posted this. He fell for it hook, line, and sinker and isn't even seeing all these posts. I bet she despises him for how easily she put him back in his place.


----------



## sa58

She'sStillGotIt said:


> We all know that any phone calls she makes to her boyfriend - while her husband stands there and listens - is just going to be one big dog and pony show put on purely for the OP's benefit.  The first chance his lying wife gets, she'll just apologize to "Nathan" and tell him her paranoid, pain the ass husband MADE her do it.
> 
> And she's just as attracted to him. Some folks are acting as though she's some kind of innocent little ingenue who's being 'groomed' by this married predator, but she's *not* innocent. She knows EXACTLY what she's been doing - and has happily lied to the OP over and over in order to do it.
> 
> Lack of communication isn't the problem here. Her constant LYING is the problem.


Of course she may apologize to Nathan. She is far from innocent her drink date and text messages ,
stairwell meetings are proof of that. Lack of communication is his problem, he isn't communicating
and telling her how wrong this all is. He just confronted her about this, and she got caught lying and 
only then admitted the drinks and other things were wrong. Now he is back to accepting and believing 
everything she says. My point is do something because this isn't over !! She probably is still talking
with Nathan, she will stop texting for sure because she got caught and had to admit she was wrong.


Here is my point !!

My wife and her coworkers sometimes go out to a certain place
for work lunches. The older male owner likes to be touchy, and to friendly 
sometimes. My wife came home and told me he got to touchy with her. 1st time
She said none of the ladies like this and it creeps them out. 2nd time he came 
straight to my wife and did it again ( rubbing her shoulders and stuff ) The following 
weekend we were out shopping and guess where I stopped for lunch !! She knows me 
very well and knew what I was going to do. He didn't like my conversation but since that
time NONE OF THE LADIES HAVE HAD A PROBLEM !! My wife told them what I had done 
and they said thanks, none of their husbands would have done anything. Communication 
does work when done right.


My Sarcastic point is 

If a dirty dog comes sniffing around your yard, you don't 
wait to see if it bites someone. You run it off !! By any 
means necessary!! With the biggest stick you can find!!

Hope this works out for you OP but I think you need to do more.


----------



## Malaise

Nucking Futs said:


> OP has not been back since he posted this. He fell for it hook, line, and sinker and isn't even seeing all these posts. I bet she despises him for how easily she put him back in his place.


We've seen it before. Someone desperate to believe and therefore willing to buy into any explanation.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Malaise said:


> We've seen it before. Someone desperate to believe and therefore willing to buy into any explanation.


Right, he really just wants it all to go away. I do hope he comes back here though.


----------



## Malaise

3Xnocharm said:


> Right, he really just wants it all to go away. I do hope he comes back here though.


Sadly some do come back, and report they were wrong. It doesn't make me happy we were right.


----------



## destroyd

Sk, look man, we know how hard looking at these posts are- and your thinking 'no, no, NO frickin' way is my wife capable of what these folks are saying. I'm not going to say I know for sure she's still lying to you- because I don't know. We are telling you that you have to keep an open mind to the possibility based on her actions and get to the bottom of it. It will not go away on its own. When posters say that WW and OM cannot have contact, that is what we mean. If you truly can't continue life as you know it without your wife's paycheck and them having to work together then you truly are in purgatory. I get it. I DO. Been there- wife carrying on with single coworker and my only resort to really end the affair and create no contact was to expose them at work. My wife was very complicit and OM had the evidence that proved it. I chose not to expose to protect her job. We would have lost our home, and probably our retirement as well trying to survive if WW had lost her job (yes, our fault for living above our means) So I ended up eating that crap sandwich too. OM eventually moved on to another job, but until he did, I was just a freaking basket case. There was a period of time where we were in limbo and just 'existed' because there was no way for me to have any assurance that the affair was not carrying on. I'm just trying to get you to look way out in front of this, and understand that to have a life going forward you have to put on your big boy pants and DEMAND real action like I should have.


----------



## alte Dame

He was already playing catch-up with this and now he has no chance, in my opinion. If he had been forceful from the start he might have stopped this runaway train. Now it's too late. Our experience here makes this the most likely outcome, which is sad. The WW has been lying and hiding, and now she knows exactly what the BH knows about it and how he knows it, so she can work around him to continue the A - they cool it for a while and then start their 'friendship' again completely on the down low. Yes, sad.


----------



## drifting on

3Xnocharm said:


> Right, he really just wants it all to go away. I do hope he comes back here though.




This is so true, just wish it would all go away, then it clicked inside me, this is your very first step in the dangerous direction of denial. In smoothies case he needs to question the after work drinking at pubs that she kept hidden. These were dates, no amount of emails can deny these dates occurred. Smoothie, ask your wife, how would she feel if she found you texting a coworker and dates at a pub? Probably would have ripped your ass severely. Why aren’t you?


----------



## MattMatt

alte Dame said:


> I think you have some cognitive misfirings here.
> 
> Her admission that at least some of her behavior has been inappropriate is not an explanation for it. It is not exoneration. It is not a solution.
> 
> 'Did you beat up that boy, Johnny?' 'Yes, I did, but I now see it as inappropriate.' Does society accept that as the final word re Johnny's bad behavior? No, it doesn't. We want real explanations and real consequences.
> 
> Admitting that you crossed the line doesn't fix the fundamental problem. Asking the 'whys' of it gets much closer to a solution, imo.
> 
> I know that it is satisfying to clear the air, but it doesn't sound like you've really done that. If you had, you would have an explanation for the lying and constant attention paid to another man.
> 
> Sorry.
> 
> To you I am a doomsayer, but I don't think you've heard the last of Nathan (who, by the way, was using one of the oldest tricks in the cheating handbook: 'I need to talk to you about my marital problems. Can you lend an ear?' It's as predictable as 'we just did it 2 times.'


Or even: 'Did you beat up that boy, Johnny?' 'Yes, I did, but I only used one of my fists and one of my feet, so the beating was only half as bad as it might have been, Ma!"


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## dpoohclock

It's amazing and sad how often this sort of situation happens..

I used to see it often back when I was in a workplace in my 20's. And back then phones and texting were new, nowadays there are so many apps and ways people can hide things..

Just from looking at the texts that her and the work spouse were having, I think either one or both of them is looking for more (if it hasn't already happened). 

It could be just a work spouse relationship, friendly flirty banter, or could be full blown emotional or physical affair.. Only they really know , the poor poster will likely never know the full scope. 


All this just stems back to what I consider the most important in the relationship, trust. Does the poster trust his wife? If not, can she regain that, or is it a lost cause? 

I do think that modern society has made it much easier for a lot of this type of activity to happen, but it doesn't excuse it. What is needed to defend against this is an honest relationship, where the spouses actually discuss all of the real life temptations with each other, before it gets out of hand from one or the other's view. Sadly a lot of people can't and/or won't discuss this kind of stuff with each other, either due to personal beliefs or just preferring to put their head in the sand.


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## Jakobs

He


jlg07 said:


> She is going out on dates for coffee, lunch and drinks. SERIOUSLY do you think this is all just "innocent" work friends?
> Contact his wife and send these text to her as others have said. DO NOT let your wife know you have the texts, nor let her know you are contacting the other guys wife.
> 
> HAVE you confronted her about going out for drinks/lunch and NEVER telling you? The fact that she is hiding this lets you know that she KNOWS this kind of activity doesn't pass the husband smell test..


He’s clearly “grooming” her. Like you say, that she goes on “dates” or minimizes these get-togethers is a red flag. The degree of intimacy IS there, and the day will come when he will test her commitment to her husband.
It’s like adultery in slow motion.


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## Jakobs

farsidejunky said:


> If it isn't okay, you don't need internet strangers to confirm it. Be true to yourself and tell her it needs to stop.


I agree with you BUT you do have to understand that people that engage in this type of affairs tend to minimize or even blame the one being excluded and that person only has an outlet to validate his suspicions and that it’s not “it’s just you.” You’re literally helpless and, hearing different opinions, crazy as they may be, lets you know your feelings aren’t irrational and that it is RIGHT for him to be concerned.[/QUOTE]


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## Jakobs

smoothieking said:


> My conclusion is that they are certainly work spouses - I don't happen to have one because where I work is 90% male. She has not lied about the going out for drinks, simply not disclosed to me. I also agree that he is teeing up the opportunity to move to the next level should the opportunity present itself in the future, but it's also a fine line for him as well testing the boundaries and being married himself. I tend to see this as an early/mild emotional affair that hasn't significantly progressed but has gone too far for my liking. I will certainly be discussing this with her in the coming weeks. On a neutral/positive note, there are some contextual things that I simply can't convey just by posting these texts. I know my wife very well and truly have confidence that there is nothing physical, and that she would not be the first one to cross that line. There are no other red flags in the relationship. She does need significant emotional support from me and that can be challenging at times being more of a nuts and bolts type of person than in tune with emotions, but that doesn't yield a free pass to get it from someone else. My needs in turn are more physical (holding, back rubs, etc.) so for me to get those needs fulfilled outside the marriage would be obvious violations. As mentioned, I will be confronting her about it soon, the key is in a manner that prevents defensiveness and portrays the impact to me of her actions. Thanks for everyone's inputs so far!


When a male “grooms” a female there is a point of no return for the excluded party. And once there, her feelings are so crossed that it’s nearly impossible for her to explain why she had to wait until he got undressed to understand she was being groomed.

Most females are attention junkies and some guys have the ability to benefit from what comes with undivided attention.


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## Jakobs

ABHale said:


> This is already an emotional affair.
> 
> Be ready for “we are just friends”


AND “it’s just you overthinking things.”


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## Rus47

Wonder what percent of married women end up in an affair with a man at work? Some professions like education and medical seems more the “norm”. My profession was neither, but a majority of the married women, especially those 35 and above had work spouses. In one instance a manager had a whole harem of them in rotation. I often wondered how we managed to make any money for the company, a lot of the workforce were very busy effn one another every day.


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## MattMatt

Zombie Cat says "What's this? Oh. Another Zombie thread."










"Let's shut it down!" And so it was.


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