# I'm a P.A.CO.DE.NG



## Horse on Ice (Dec 22, 2015)

My original thread is here:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/419233-theres-more-there-always.html

And my reason for starting THIS thread:



Horse on Ice said:


> So, I'm reading books "When I say No, I feel guilty" and "No More Mister Nice Guy". Along with other threads that relate to those topics.
> 
> I am realizing (again) that I need to fix me. And this time to continue it and not let Life derail that, but to make it a part of my Life.
> 
> ...


And, so I begin...


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Should be fun.🤗


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

*stands up and applauds loudly*

Admitting is step 1.

Step 2 is figuring out what goals you want to reach.

Step 3 is Taking a goal, breaking it down into small steps that can be achieved.

Changing yourself, changing habits developed over a lifetime isn't easy. Having someone to help you stay accountable and being able to hold your feet to the fire helps out a lot.

I'm gonna page @As'laDain so he can help too.

And you've got Brooklyn, she is all for encouraging but also calling out missteps. Does it all the time on my thread.


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## Horse on Ice (Dec 22, 2015)

To begin, I want to take some time to define why I think I'm a passive aggressive, co-dependent Nice Guy. I've been reading through many threads, web sites, and books, and have found numerous items that other people have said that have accurately captured what I thing and feel.

These first few posts will be those captured thoughts of others, and then I'll move into my own thoughts and feelings. And then my own things I need to work on. And then hopefully, feedback from others on how I can work on those things.

The following excerpt is from this thread:
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...45-marriage-advice-please-especially-men.html



MarriedTex said:


> My bet is that you are dealing with a "Nice Guy" in the Dr. Robert Glover sense. For years, he has been giving in, capitulating, sacrificing all just to make you happy. This becomes a marriage death spiral. He tries to do nice things for you and you wind up nagging him about something else. He goes out until 2 a.m. and you nag him about staying out too late. I would bet that we are hearing a sanitized version of your interactions from your perspective. Rightly or wrongly, he perceives that he has done nothing but give, give, give and the thanks he gets is to get yelled at and asked repeatedly to leave. I'm not saying this is an accurate picture, but it is HIS perception of reality.
> 
> By the time he stopped talking to you while living in the same house, the ship had already sailed. Through years of interaction, you had trained him that life is easier when he just keeps his head down, keeps working and plays with the kids every once in awhile. You were not a positive in his life. You became the obstacle to him enjoying life. Yes, he stayed and stayed out of some sense of overall duty to you and to the marriage.
> 
> ...


In describing that husband, I feel like @marriageTex described me. And described me in a complete sense in that there is some "laying of blame" (MarriageTex's effort to get the wife to consider HER part in the issue), which is what I began focusing on. How is SHE acting that gives rise to ME reacting?

I'll give you a bit more of that discussion:



MarriedTex said:


> I know why. You read my eight paragraph post and agreed with the portion where I said that "he never gave feedback, so how can you respond." You totally ignored the whole explanation of how he feels that way or demonstrate any empathy / acknowledgement for his plight / troubles. So let me make this easier for you: He sees you in the same way that somebody would look at an investment gone sour. He poured time and effort into a partner who did not recognize or appreciate what he has done over the years. He's mad at you because he sees you as self-involved and not interested in reciprocating the type of love he believes he has shown for you.
> 
> When your relationship troubles are diagnosed, you highlight the small segment that supports your mindset and ignore the rest. A small sample size, certainly, but one that suggests that your husband may have good reason for his anger.


And oh, how this jumped out at me and gave me a sense of "Finally, someone who sees my plight!" and "I am Vindicated!" But then. But then. I realized that the very last sentence applied to me as well. Exactly to me. And for all my "I am Vindicated" thoughts, I had to realize, so was she.

What does all of this mean? It means that I can no longer lay the blame at her feet. Oh, it may be mostly her fault in fact, but that is beside the point of me accepting responsibility for MY actions.

It means that I can no longer focus on her faults as an excuse for my own. Oh, her faults may be the exact cause of my issues, but that too is beside the point of me accepting responsibility for MY actions.


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## Horse on Ice (Dec 22, 2015)

brooklynAnn said:


> Should be fun.🤗


Okay, fun for Who? I will be forced to take a good hard look at myself without any filters (okay that view is kinda funny). And engage in lively and spirited debate over my actions and reactions (well, that sounds like it could be fun). And be supported and encouraged by hundreds, nay, thousands of people from all over the world! (maybe...) I guess I'm just gonna have to take you word for it.:wink2:



Akinaura said:


> *stands up and applauds loudly*
> 
> Admitting is step 1.
> 
> ...


Yay! I got the Double A team again! @Akinaura, your thread on getting your projects done is kind of what inspired me to begin this thread. I saw how you used that to state your intentions, break them down to easily understood and manageable steps, and then got others to join in with encouragement, helpful hints, reminders and occasional admonition where needed. 

And I told myself, "Self, that is exactly what you need, someone who will encourage and support you but hold you accountable, someone that you won't think is undermining your progress and most importantly, someone who has no idea who you are so if you spectacularly embarrass yourself, you can just delete this and pretend it never happened." >

Yes, I'm just kidding about that last part...

So, thanks to you all. I really appreciate it.


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## Horse on Ice (Dec 22, 2015)

I read this a few years ago and unfortunately, forgot where I copied it from. It struck me quite hard, this other man writing about MY marriage. I realized, there is very little here to change to make it my own life.



> I am here seeking advice from those of you who may be dealing with or have dealt with living life with a yeller. I am 44 years old and have been with my partner for 18 years and noticed the yelling started pretty early on. As I have never had any experience with a yeller, never grew up in that environment, never dated someone who I would classify as a yeller, I didn't understand the weight of it nor the psychological toll it would eventually take on me. Now here I am, nearly 18 years in and I find that it has just shaken me to my core. It has changed me as a person. I've regressed.
> 
> We have our issues and I'm not perfect by any means. I am not a very good communicator, though I want to be. She communicates her every feeling and I try to be a good listener. I no longer think the potential for greatness is there, because of all the lows we've had. I just feel it's so far gone, this yelling, everything piggy backs on everything and there's very little restraint in going off on a yelling tangent.
> 
> ...


Now dear reader, I know what you're thinking. "Didn't you just say that you can no longer blame her? That you need to accept responsibility for your own actions and reactions?" And you are absolutely correct. And that admonishment is on point. But. I know, no excuses, but it really is necessary this time. I feel the need to have a starting point. A point that says "This is exactly how I'm feeling, this is what I'm thinking, this is how I'm acting." You see, without that point of beginning, how do we know how far we've come? So, don't think of this as me laying blame, think of this as, "He is starting here, and has already chosen to acknowledge his own issues, his own part in a failed marriage. He has come so far already."


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Horse on Ice said:


> What does all of this mean? It means that I can no longer lay the blame at her feet. Oh, it may be mostly her fault in fact, but that is beside the point of me accepting responsibility for MY actions.
> 
> It means that I can no longer focus on her faults as an excuse for my own. Oh, her faults may be the exact cause of my issues, but that too is beside the point of me accepting responsibility for MY actions.


Yes, but .... you must at some point forgive yourself. Not the "forget about it, it was ok you did that" form of forgiveness, but the "It is ok to be imperfect. I'm learning to be a better person every day".

You'll feel some anger at yourself for being so stupid and putting up with things from others which you never should have accepted. You'll feel anger towards your parents for their contributions to your dysfunctional thought processes and poor skills. This is a process you're undertaking. It does not involve learning something like a math skill. Once you know how to add numbers, you know it. This isn't like that! You'll have major new understandings, and you'll see little nuances. You'll take 3 steps forward but then 1 step back. You'll remember something you did a long time ago and feel deeply embarrassed. You'll catch yourself today doing or saying something that you thought you knew better than to do.

Try not to beat yourself up.

Learn positive affirmations, and silence those negative self-talks. When you catch yourself thinking or muttering "you stupid *******" or "idiot!" about yourself, silence it immediately. Replace it with something positive like "I'm glad I've learned not to be like that any more".

And do learn to forgive yourself.


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## Horse on Ice (Dec 22, 2015)

As I mentioned before, I'm currently reading NMMNG and "When I say no, I feel Guilty". With my issues, I think that my best approach is to work on the "Nice Guy" first and foremost. I think that so many of my PA and CODE tendencies are complexly intertwined with my NG tendencies and that correcting my NG tendencies will also correct my PA and CODE tendencies (at least to some extent).

My homework for myself this week is to focus on where my NG tendencies arise from. I hope to get this out early enough this week to get feedback so that I have time by next Sunday to formulate what my homework for the following week should be. As always, suggestions would be helpful and appreciated.


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

Codependency is just a bad coping skill, so in time, it can be untaught. Been there, done that, burned the homework pages from it lol.

For your NG issues, look towards your FOO. But also look towards society in general. Since about the 90s, it was about the "meterosexual", the man who could understand women's emotions...and also the rise of the Disney generations. How a white knight, dashing prince, would sweep women off their feet, and it would be romantic love the entire time...without realizing that relationships are still at their core a transaction. One partner gets something from the other while giving up something. If you aren't afraid to "rock the boat" a little to put the relationship back on course, then a lot of things that would other couples straight to divorce become minor blips.

Both Asla and I are not afraid to destabilize anymore...simply because we know it's a wake up call that the dynamic is not good. We also know that afterwards, things will be better than they were before the destabilization.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Yup, FOO for where NG came from. Iirc you are about the same age as me, mid-late 50's. Akinaura's reference to Disney is spot on for me at least, with the purity angle of the princess. My dad is an adult child of an alcoholic mother, and he did everything he could to provide a fairy tale childhood for us, but that also brought along a reverence for the Disney (or Hollywood 1950's) image of the "good girl".

I've come to recognize that the time I grew up in was an in between micro-generation. Just a few years too young to have lived the 60's hippy thing, and a few years too old to live the 80's/90's cocaine and clubbing lifestyle. A lot probably had to do with the town I grew up in, which was stodgy conservative. 

You'll probably start to recognize how much television shows, pop music, pop culture, and the media in general have fed into your NG ideas. There will be specific individuals in your life who in one way or another contributed. The tv show M*A*S*H along with the anti-war messages of the late 60's early 70's was a contributor.

Even years from now you'll suddenly have a realization about some new factor which played into your upbringing and learning to be a NG. I believe we were taught at a very young age to be NGs, and by the time we are maybe 10 yrs old it is solidly part of us.


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

Im dont know how much internet access i will have over the next two weeks, so if you dont see me post, it is because i am away from wifi and busy, not because i am not interest in posting here. 

Anyway, i have one piece of advice to give to help with the anxiety that spikes in the face of anger: learn to laugh at it. Not at her, laugh at the insanity of the notion that you should fear her. Laugh at how silly it is that your brain floods you with cortisol and obliterates its own ability to think. Isn't that crazy? Laugh at how silly the whole situation is, that she would be so angry at you while you are constantly trying to placate her.

If you can learn to do that, her outbursts will never phase you again.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

While I have never been a nice guy in the bad sense, I am a really nice guy in general. 

But the codependency, yeah, had that in spades. 

For me, with all of these types of issues, one thing kept coming to mind, in every case. 

I DESERVE TO BE HAPPY. Not that I want it, not that I need it, I actually deserved it. 

In my life, I was always the responsible one in the crowd. Always looking out for everyone. Always taking care of people. I help raise my sister, I was there for my mother, I was willing to help my brother. 

In my marriage, I had to take care of my wife. I now know that she has sever mental issues, and she was a "Hidden" drug addict for 20 years of our 26 year marriage. 

I took care of her when she was "sick", I raised the kids. I was the sole bread winner. I was everything to every one. 

However, for my stupid A$$ it took having a stroke to understand that hey, this is crazy. I cannot do everything for everybody. I am good guy, I raised my kids well, and on and on. 

I deserve to be happy, I deserve to live a happy life. 

Once you start letting go of saving the world, it becomes easier to save yourself. 

Detaching from my wife was the first step. At the time I did not understand what was going on with her, she lied about her addiction, she kept it hidden, I knew she had some type of mental issue (bi-polar and other things) but I could not get a diagnosis from any of the doctors. And, she lied so well to doctors, she could make them believe anything. 

But while I could not be sure of what was wrong with her, I knew I had done everything I could do for her, and she would have to sink or swim on her own. 

That is just one example. But once I started to detach, I did not care as much when she blew her top, or went off. 

The way that I looked at it was, "Not my circus, not my monkeys"...


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## Horse on Ice (Dec 22, 2015)

@BluesPower

There are some similarities I think. While my wife does not have any addictions (at least that I know of), she does have health issues. Numerous health issues. And, mental health issues. It weighs heavily.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled broadcast.


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## Horse on Ice (Dec 22, 2015)

I know that I said that I was going to focus on where my NG tendencies come from, but while working a full time job, going to school, being a father & husband, reading NMMNG, and "When I Say No..." as well as reading and interacting on TAM, I came to a realization.

I'm STILL being a NG by doing all of those things at the same time. I'm allowing all of these other things to take away from me focusing on ONE thing so I can work on fixing me.

So, I can't quit work, school, fatherhood and haven't given up on the husband thing yet, so that leaves the other stuff. I know, I know, "Don't leave TAM" "We're here for you", "We want to help you too, and hold you accountable, because you're gonna need it". And I agree. I'm not quitting TAM (*big sigh of relief in the internet crowd*), I'm postponing the reading of "When I say No...". And, I'm following NMMNG when it comes to bringing up discussion points.

As an example, I had already gotten a couple of paragraphs down about my FOO. However, that doesn't come up until a few chapters later. So, I'm revising my homework.

My homework now will be to list and discuss the various characteristics of a NG.


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## Horse on Ice (Dec 22, 2015)

Characteristics of Nice Guys (Robert Glover)

Nice Guys are dishonest
I don't want to admit it because I cannot stand anyone to lie to me, but yes. I'm dishonest. Now, I have been able to "rugsweep" because I don't tell lies, except when I need to. Or, when I don't want to hurt someones feelings. Or, when I'm trying to avoid an argument. Or, or ,or... The thing is, I'm mostly dishonest with myself. Because I tell MYSELF lies about my behavior. "It's okay for me to not tell the whole story because that's not a lie." The book says to counteract this to be "radically honest" I am not sure how to do this. No, let me be honest. I know exactly how to do this, I'm just scared of the consequences.​
Nice Guys are secretive
This kind of goes along with the dishonesty part, but still different enough. I tell myself that I don't talk about some things because it's not that important. Radical Honesty? I don't talk about some things because it will either make me look bad (and not bad in the sense of "aw shucks, we can laugh that off", bad in the sense of "what the hell is wrong with you?") or, I believe it will get me into trouble. In other words, something I probably should not have done in the first place, and I know it.​
Nice Guys are compartmentalized
I probably do this, but am having a hard time thinking of an example. I've never cheated on my wife, but have "window-shopped", maybe that fits? I'm not too sure on this one.​
Nice Guys are manipulative
I didn't really think of myself this way, just PA. But I think that those things are somewhat intertwined. I avoid conflict, so I say stuff like "who left this dirty cup on the table?" all the while knowing it was my wife, and putting it in the sink while seething the whole time.​
Nice Guys are controlling
I have to be honest here, I don't see this one. I mean, I do want things to run smooth, but I do not think that I am controlling. I will need further reflection on this one. Possibly some pointed questions from the audience to elicit my response that may indicate one way or the other.​
Nice Guys "give to get"
Okay, Radical Honesty? Of all the traits, this one probably best describes me. I can't remember the last time I gave something without some unspoken "agreement" that I would get something in return. Even if just their acknowledgement that I was the nicest, most giving man they ever met. And then to tell their friends and neighbors, perhaps call the local news.​
Nice Guys are passive aggressive
There are quite a number of examples in this paragraph in the book. Seven to be exact. Six of them I practice frequently. I have made myself unavailable, even though I really didn't have a good excuse, just to "get back at her". I forget stuff constantly. Mostly things she asks me to do. A caveat though, there have been numerous times that she has asked me to do things WHEN I'M NOT EVEN IN THE ROOM. Just a clarifier, nothing more. Being late? I have been late so many times, it's now expected of me. Not following through is something I told myself I would NEVER do. That was about the biggest complaint my mother had of my father. And yes, I heard it often. I am able to get an erection, but if sex were a race, I'd place first right about the time the starting gun went off. (In other words, I climax too quickly.) This last one gets me though. I repeat the same behaviors even after promising to stop. I "forget" she doesn't like when I do that, I "forget" the entire conversation, I didn't really do what you just saw out of the corner of your eye, aww, it wasn't that bad honey. I must own up to this...​
Nice Guys are full of rage
I'm beginning to see and admit this. I haven't for the longest time. Now begins the process of understanding why though. This one will be discussed in more detail later on.​
Nice Guys are addictive
Sexual compulsiveness. In other words, I CAN keep my hands to myself, it's keeping them OFF that's difficult. I masturbate frequently. I hate that I just wrote that out, I think that may have been the first time I admitted that since I got married. Radical Honesty? I masturbate too much. Nearly daily. If I skip some days, I "make up for it" by masturbating numerous times in one day. But I climax too quickly. Damn it.​
Nice Guys have difficulty setting boundaries
Okay, this one WILL be discussed in much greater detail, because I am still not sure what a good boundary actually is. And, once I figure that out, how do I enforce it? In other words, what will the repercussions be? My Double A team offered some examples, but they didn't really fit my situation. I still need work on this one to even understand it.​
Nice Guys are frequently isolated
I don't think this one fits me. I am pretty outgoing and enjoy people. But if the reference is how CLOSE I am to people, then maybe. I'm not close to many, but am close to a select few.​
Nice Guys are often attracted to people and situations that need fixing
Oh ho ho, now we're getting somewhere. Absolutely. Not sure if I mentioned before how my wife was abused as a child. My pre-marriage thought must have been "well, there's my next project!" Now, I'm waking up, I'm realizing that I have these issues. I'm realizing that I must face the fact that once I am on my path I may not want a project. And if she is not working on fixing her, then I will not be able to remain.​
Nice Guys frequently have problems in intimate relationships
This {unbelievably horrible name calling} has a terrible habit of holding up the mirror that shows me exactly what I'm doing and why. Oh yes, I am a terrible listener if the conversation involves criticism directed at me or if YOU have a problem. And I have an issue? Pssh, no problem, I'm sorry, problem fixed, everything is okay now. **** this is me! And we just had a discussion about the whole project thing! So it's NOT MY FAULT! Except, it really is. I have issues. I need to work on fixing me.​
Nice Guys have issues with sexuality
Okay, we just went through my sexual problems so I really don't want to go over them again. Of course this is me rugsweeping and not confronting my fears. I am a compulsive masturbation machine. I also look at pornography. Now, that's not everytime, and alot of people may not have a problem with it. But it's not exactly the pornography that is the issue. It's really the fact that my wife doesn't know because I'm hiding it from her, because I'M A LIAR AND I FEAR THE CONSEQUENCES. This is making my chest clench.​
Nice Guys are usually only relatively successful
I'm not too sure about this one either. I think I'm doing pretty good, the issue is I feel like a fraud. Like somehow I was able to pull the wool over everyone's eyes and got this position when I don't deserve it, I'm not qualified and they're going to find out any second now...​


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## Akinaura (Dec 6, 2011)

Nice Guys are Compartmentalized: You have different faces for different people. You act different ways around different people because you dont want them upset with you. So this one area of your life doesnt interact with this other area of your life and everything is good. If the two interact, oh dear, now there is BIG issues because you aren't the same person to those two people.

Nice Guys are manipulative: If you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours...but I just won't tell you that deal was made. Read up on covert contracts. That will help you understand why nice guys are manipulative.

Boundaries? Think of them like a gate. Able to swing one way or the other. Some people (nice guys) have gates made of straw, so flimsy that an ant can walk right over it. Other people have gates like Fort Knox, where no is going to get in without multiple if checks. The best gates are wrought iron with holes. Those let in what we want but are rigid enough to hold out what we dont.


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## Horse on Ice (Dec 22, 2015)

On the subject of boundaries, it came up on my other thread ( http://talkaboutmarriage.com/consid...-theres-more-there-always-6.html#post19439409 ) and since I'm using this one to journal my path forward, I'll bring it over here for insight, historical reference and discussion.



Horse on Ice said:


> You are absolutely correct.
> 
> My problem is this; I have brought up issues that I have with her, but I am not a good communicator, so I know that I have NOT done that in a constructive way. In reading the books, I am learning that I need to set boundaries AND THEN ENFORCE THEM. So, not only do I NOT know how to SET boundaries (I still need to learn what mine are), when I make an attempt, I don't enforce them, and on top of all of that, when I do try to enforce them, it is not so much me enforcing them as me blaming her for doing whatever is was. Which "teaches" me that I should just "stuff" what I'm feeling, which builds resentment, which leads to me "giving up" on a particular issue, which enforces my idea that I do NOT know how to set boundaries, and then circling, circling, circles.
> 
> ...





Horse on Ice said:


> And with that being said, and although others have made explanations about boundaries, I am still having difficulty in coming up with fair, enforceable boundaries on my own.
> 
> For instance, I have an issue with her anger. Don't get me wrong, it's not the anger itself, I can understand that emotion. It's the rapid onset and display that I have an issue with. There is no attempt at patience and understanding, and quickly escalates into blaming, foul language, name-calling and a historical recount of past mistakes that I cannot fix (or that I haven't fixed well enough, nevermind that she thought the fix was good enough before). Prior to now, my boundary was centered on her anger. I understand now that I can't have a boundary focused on her, so my boundary should now be that I will not tolerate abuse. Okay, how do I enforce that? Walking away doesn't fix anything, it just gives her more ammunition for the next time she talks to me.
> 
> Could I get some suggestions of good boundaries and consequences from the audience please?


And @Akinaura, once again, I appreciate yours and As'laDain's input, you guys have no idea how much.

To follow up on your latest post though, at this point, my issue is more than just understanding boundaries in the general sense. Hopefully my quotes above give everyone an idea of where I'm at with this. I actually need to figure out Specific boundaries for myself. 

The explanations you gave for compartmentalization and manipulation were great, I have a much better understanding of how those apply to me now.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

A therapist can help you figure out boundaries.


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## Horse on Ice (Dec 22, 2015)

Oh, more stuff on boundaries! I know, you may be getting dizzy from the back and forth, but my plan is to use THIS thread to provide me (and any others) with my path on "fixing" myself. Not my wife, not my marriage, not my kids. Me. I need some place to come back to, to look at my progress when I feel like nothings changed, to remind myself of promises made, boundaries created, consequences enacted when I start slipping, to PROVE to myself that I am becoming a better MAN.



Thor said:


> Broken Record technique. Just repeat the boundary and walk away again. Don't get into defending yourself verbally or trying to explain to her. Just tell her that you will not remain in a discussion when she becomes angry or abusive. Then walk away.
> 
> In a future conversation if she brings up you walking away last time, it depends on how she does it. If she is angry or abusive, Broken Record. "I will not remain in a discussion when you are angry and abusive". Walk away. If she brings it up in a calm way, you could say ONE TIME ONLY that your boundary is not to remain in a conversation when she is angry and abusive, so you left that conversation. If she tries to argue the point, just tell her you are not going to argue about the last argument.
> 
> ...





Horse on Ice said:


> Oohhhh, that explains so much!
> 
> Alright, feedback on this boundary statement:
> "I will not condone verbal abuse"
> ...


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## Horse on Ice (Dec 22, 2015)

and, @Thor, I did have a counselor, he is now too far away. I am in the process of finding another one closer. Right now, I'm using TAM and books, better than nothing, but not as good as the real thing I know.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

Horse on Ice said:


> and, @Thor, I did have a counselor, he is now too far away. I am in the process of finding another one closer. Right now, I'm using TAM and books, better than nothing, but not as good as the real thing I know.


I was told this is your new thread and I could find your current status here. 

Finding a counselor is imperative! Having a trained teacher, guide, and mentor who knows you and your situation IRL can move you in the right direction and address your mistakes before they happen. In other words, it can save you and your family a lot of grief.

Best


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Hi @Horse on Ice, 

I've been following along on both threads, and just to recap, this one is about YOU...the other one is to talk about your marriage. So on this thread, I'm going to focus on you...and you have stated very clearly that you are having trouble envisioning boundaries, and how to enforce boundaries. You asked this: 



> Alright, feedback on this boundary statement:
> "I will not condone verbal abuse"
> 
> And, this consequence:
> ...


May I make a suggestion? I've been where you are, in that I grew up in a very dysfunctional, abusive family of origin, so that the idea of a boundary was just completely foreign to me. It made no sense because I had never seen anything like that in a healthy way... EVER! So here's my thought and then my suggestion. 

*Thought: *A boundary is YOU putting a fence around yourself and saying this is a limit you put on yourself. It's not about limiting or controlling others at all. They can do whatever they choose! But YOU say to yourself "Here's the fence around me, and here's what I will and will not tolerate within my space." I think of it as "the space of intimate access to me"...who do you let in there? What will you accept? What won't you accept? Etc. So envision a white picket fence around you, and you are saying, "This is the kind of behavior I'll open that gate for...this is the kind of behavior I will NOT open the gate for." 

*Suggestion: *Why don't you start with a little more specific and easy-to-identify boundary? That way, it's easier to see! For example, instead of "I will not condone verbal abuse" ... well that's kind of vague. What is "condoning"? What is "verbal abuse"? What if you two disagree on the definition? Etc. Instead what if you made it really specific and fairly easy to spot, like _"I will not stay in a conversation when I'm called any derogatory name." _

See how that's kind of easier to see?

You even say what the enforcement will be--you won't stay in the conversation!

So if you are called a pet name--that's not it. 
If you are not within hearing range--that's not it. 
If you are in a conversation, and you are being respectful, and you are called a derogatory name...THAT'S IT! You've identified your boundary!

And you've said what the enforcement is: you won't stay in the conversation. 

So when you are called a derogatory name, you just state that truth:
_
"I don't choose to stay in conversation where I"m called names."_ PERIOD. Nothing more. Then you walk away, go to another room, close the door, go outside, etc. Let her decide if she's going to calm down and talk respectfully or not. If she does, cool...continue. If she does not, walk FURTHER away, like go for a walk or drive away for half an hour, but say "I'm going for a half hour drive to give us a chance to calm down" and then go. DO NOT EXPLAIN. Do not say anymore more...there's no need. She gets to choose how she is going to behave, and you are choosing what you will and will not accept as treatment.

Finally, do you mind if I take a stab at this:


> But also, please explain, "you could say ONE TIME ONLY that your boundary is not to remain in a conversation when she is angry and abusive, so you left that conversation". Why one time only?


Let's say you're having a conversation and it is beginning to get heated but really isn't too bad yet, and she says something like "Well when someone treats me like a jerk I don't appreciate it." It's not QUITE calling you a name, but it sure as shooting is implied. So that would be where you would state your boundary ONE TIME...sort of as a reminder. You'd say "Let me just remind you that I don't stay in conversations where I am called a derogatory name." Then if she does it again, even implying it like that, you leave the conversation. And if it were me, I'd say "I stated I don't stay in conversation where I'm called names, so I'm going to the other room." PERIOD. You say it ONCE because if you remind her and she still chooses to cross the boundary, she did so willfully and knowingly. Enforce it! You say it once because she's learning too and it's reasonable to give someone one "heads up." 

The broken record technique is sort of like when she's screaming and in a frenzy, you don't respond to her frenzy at all....you just say, over and over "I won't be in a conversation where I'm called names. I said I won't converse with someone who's calling me names. Still calling me names? I choose not to participate then"....and as soon as you can actually leave you do. Sometimes you're blocked or stuck or cornered...so you do the broken record until you can enforce. It's like saying "That's calling me a name" That's also calling me a name" "That is name calling" every time she does it until either she hears (and she'll likely say something like "You mean, you won't talk to me if I call you a name!?" -- all incredulous!) or until you can enforce the consequence and leave the vicinity! 

Again, bear in mind that you are not controlling what SHE does. She can choose to call you names if that's her choice. What you're saying is "I do not choose to participate in conversations where I'm called a derogatory name." You are saying what YOU will (or will not) do.

Make some sense?


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