# No-fault divorce or fault divorce?



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

'Tis a curious thing, if you had a choice between living in an area where there is no-fault divorce or fault divorce which would you choose? And why?

I'll start, I'd say no-fault divorce. Less drama.

Yet a part of me wonders about fault divorce when it comes to marriages where some spouses simply don't deserve the division of assets, hence this thread...


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

No fault divorce. Everyone deserves happiness, no sense in forcing them to find a reason to allow them to pursue it.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Back before no-fault my mother tried to divorce her first husband. Despite police reports and a hospitalization, she didn't have enough proof of abuse for an at fault divorce. For that reason alone, I favor no-fault. No man or woman should have to stay legally and socially bound to someone that has abused them in any way simply because they don't have the kind of proof the court requires.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

I'm kind of torn on this one, because I like the equitable division of assets. But then again... I also want the person who cheated on or beat their spouse to be punished financially. Just because.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Ynot said:


> No fault divorce. Everyone deserves happiness, no sense in forcing them to find a reason to allow them to pursue it.


Ey? Not everyone I would say...



MJJEAN said:


> Back before no-fault my mother tried to divorce her first husband. Despite police reports and a hospitalization, she didn't have enough proof of abuse for an at fault divorce. For that reason alone, I favor no-fault. No man or woman should have to stay legally and socially bound to someone that has abused them in any way simply because they don't have the kind of proof the court requires.





FeministInPink said:


> I'm kind of torn on this one, because I like the equitable division of assets. But then again... I also want the person who cheated on or beat their spouse to be punished financially. Just because.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


I agree with both of you and I'm also torn about this. On one hand, yes, no one should be locked into marriage, by law or financially, yet I believe that there are those who must suffer the consequences for their actions. It's quite disturbing we can't have the best of both worlds.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Ey? Not everyone I would say...
> 
> Yes, everyone
> 
> ...


But we do. It is just that we can't accept it. In the end we all get what is coming to us, regardless of whether we think it is best or not.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

FeministInPink said:


> I'm kind of torn on this one, because I like the equitable division of assets. But then again... I also want the person who cheated on or beat their spouse to be punished financially. Just because.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


MI is a no fault state that allows the judge to take into account abuse and adultery when dividing marital assets and assigning custody. However, the petitioner must have hard physical evidence and/or a confession that the affair was sexual in order for the court to take it into account. Here's the interesting bit. If the BS had sex with the WS after the affair was revealed or discovered, the law considers that reconciling and the affair becomes moot.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

RandomDude said:


> I agree with both of you and I'm also torn about this. On one hand, yes, no one should be locked into marriage, by law or financially, yet I believe that there are those who must suffer the consequences for their actions. It's quite disturbing we can't have the best of both worlds.


Yes, we can. Many states allow evidence of an affair to be taken into account during a no-fault divorce when it comes to asset division and, sometimes, custody. However, the burden of proof of an outside sexual relationship is such that most people can't meet it and don't bother even trying.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Ynot said:


> But we do. It is just that we can't accept it. In the end we all get what is coming to us, regardless of whether we think it is best or not.


We don't. Justice is a human responsibility. There is no karma, heaven or hell.

In this though, guess we will have to agree to disagree.



MJJEAN said:


> MI is a no fault state that allows the judge to take into account abuse and adultery when dividing marital assets and assigning custody. However, the petitioner must have hard physical evidence and/or a confession that the affair was sexual in order for the court to take it into account. Here's the interesting bit. If the BS had sex with the WS after the affair was revealed or discovered, the law considers that reconciling and the affair becomes moot.





MJJEAN said:


> Yes, we can. Many states allow evidence of an affair to be taken into account during a no-fault divorce when it comes to asset division and, sometimes, custody. However, the burden of proof of an outside sexual relationship is such that most people can't meet it and don't bother even trying.


Damn, your state has my nation beat in this.

My divorce was great, no dramas, no fault, parted amicably, trust and respect still intact and she remains co-parent for our daughter.

But if I married someone of a lower quality, and she dared to betray me - I sure as hell would want to live where you live! Though I heard MI has other problems - dads by default correct? Or is that another state?


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> We don't. Justice is a human responsibility. There is no karma, heaven or hell.
> 
> In this though, guess we will have to agree to disagree.


Revenge might be a human responsibility, justice is not. Revenge seems to be a human duty.

But I agree there is no karma, heaven or hell.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Ynot said:


> Revenge might be a human responsibility, justice is not. Revenge seems to be a human duty.
> 
> But I agree there is no karma, heaven or hell.


Then whose responsibility is it for justice?


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## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

If at fault was more common it would take forever to get the cases through the courts because everything would require a long (expensive) trial. It would also cause a backlog in the courts due to the cases taking more court time so it could take months to even make it to court. No fault is definitely the way to go.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Absolutely no-fault.

I do not want the courts tied up in ugly battles as people try to prove who was the worse spouse. "he cheated" "She cheated first" "but he was on gay hookup sites" "she knew I was bi when we got married". "sure but he never told me ...."


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

RandomDude said:


> Then whose responsibility is it for justice?


I dunno, I don't believe in justice


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I had plenty of reasons to divorce my ex, but instead I waited 2 years and then you can get divorced in the UK if both agree without any blame. I wasn't interested in dating again for 4 years anyway, and didn't feel emotionally ready to go though a divorce for 2 years. 
In the UK you can divorce before that for unreasonable behaviour, but it doesn't need to be something especially serious such as adultery to do that.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Cheating is a serious social crime and should not go unpunished.


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## BradWesley2 (Jul 15, 2016)

manfromlamancha said:


> Cheating is a serious social crime and should not go unpunished.


Here in the U.S. many states have already abolished adultery laws, and those that haven't, have reduced adultery to a minor misdemeanor crime, with a charge as low as $10.00.

Dude, you are trying to push water uphill. Good luck with that.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

BradWesley2 said:


> Here in the U.S. many states have already abolished adultery laws, and those that haven't, have reduced adultery to a minor misdemeanor crime, with a charge as low as $10.00.
> 
> Dude, you are trying to push water uphill. Good luck with that.


Not trying to do anything really. This was just an opinion poll. Adultery is a hard one to adminsiter laws on so it is just pure laziness to do what we do regularly on TAM which is investigate the adultery. Not important enough ? Given the devastation and pain it causes, I would hope that is not the case. So it is down to manpower, time etc to investigate - hence the abolishment.

The fact is that nothing is being done to curb infidelity etc and so it is on the rise.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

It's so hard...on the one hand, there should be consequences for destroying a family (for both the person who cheated, and the person they cheated with), but people living in violent marriages should be able to leave without having to prove abuse either...


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

RandomDude said:


> Damn, your state has my nation beat in this.
> 
> My divorce was great, no dramas, no fault, parted amicably, trust and respect still intact and she remains co-parent for our daughter.
> 
> But if I married someone of a lower quality, and she dared to betray me - I sure as hell would want to live where you live! Though I heard MI has other problems - dads by default correct? Or is that another state?



Yup, that was MI. To be fair to MI, though, as far as I know, we aren't the minority. 

Now, let's discuss how the law is implemented. It's not, really. There is a fairly big difference between how the law is written and how it is carried out. Most judges give zero ****s who cheated, they just want to 50/50 the assets and kids, get the divorce final, and get people out of their courtroom. I haven't seen or heard of a judge here caring one way or the other about infidelity since ...hell, ever.

A decade or so back, the state passed legislation requiring divorcing parents with minor children to attend 3 marriage counseling sessions and extended the waiting period. The idea was to keep families together for the good of the kids and society, yadda yadda. Judges still have leeway, though, and will grant a divorce within a few months from filing if there is some kind of proof the marriage has broken down beyond possible repair. How to get around the annoying requirements of counseling and waiting? Tell the judge you were unfaithful! It's a get out of jail free card. I did it, but I was actually unfaithful. I know others who lied and claimed they committed infidelity just to get their damn divorce already.

Way I see it, splitting assets is business and should be handled by the courts if the divorcing couple cannot agree. Infidelity is personal. That's something the BS should handle him or her self.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

MJJEAN said:


> Yup, that was MI. To be fair to MI, though, as far as I know, we aren't the minority.
> 
> Now, let's discuss how the law is implemented. It's not, really. There is a fairly big difference between how the law is written and how it is carried out. Most judges give zero ****s who cheated, they just want to 50/50 the assets and kids, get the divorce final, and get people out of their courtroom. I haven't seen or heard of a judge here caring one way or the other about infidelity since ...hell, ever.
> 
> ...


So... pretty much just like normal no-fault divorce then. Guess not best of two worlds after all...


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I support No-Fault divorce from the standpoint of the granting of divorce. The state has no business telling adults they cannot dissolve a legal contract.

However, spousal support and, possibly, division of assets, absulutely should consider bad behavior. There should be an option available to present evidence of fault, but not a requirement of proving fault, during the financial part of the divorce process.


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## ILoveSparkles (Oct 28, 2013)

No-fault.

However, I'd love to see the women he had affairs with named in the legal documents and squirm and have to answer for it.....


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

RandomDude said:


> So... pretty much just like normal no-fault divorce then. Guess not best of two worlds after all...


But that's not the fault of the law. The law is there, the people choose not to use it. Unless the Petitioner makes infidelity a part of the division of asset proceedings, why should the judge care? Of course, the burden of proof is on the BS, bringing infidelity into it will mean having a trial, and it will cost out the nose in lawyers fees as well as make the divorce take months to years longer as scheduling conflicts are always an issue.

Reality is, the state is willing if the BS is willing. The problem is that it would cost the BS more money by far than a standard no-fault and keep the BS legally tied to their WS much longer. No one wants that.


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

MJJEAN said:


> MI is a no fault state that allows the judge to take into account abuse and adultery when dividing marital assets and assigning custody. However, the petitioner must have hard physical evidence and/or a confession that the affair was sexual in order for the court to take it into account. Here's the interesting bit. If the BS had sex with the WS after the affair was revealed or discovered, the law considers that reconciling and the affair becomes moot.


In this case, then I prefer no-fault.

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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I can see good and bad for both. I think one negative of no fault is that it allows someone to decide they don’t like how their bread is being buttered, and they want out. There is no cheating, abuse, or anything, but suddenly things are being divided and families split up.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

southbound said:


> I can see good and bad for both. I think one negative of no fault is that it allows someone to decide they don’t like how their bread is being buttered, and they want out. There is no cheating, abuse, or anything, but suddenly things are being divided and families split up.


Heh well if a spouse wants out of a marriage - for ANY reason - I can't think of any reason to keep them around. For me my issue with no fault despite my support for it is the lack of consequences for wayward spouses hence encouraging infidelity.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*At fault divorces are going the way of the Kiwi bird!

Family court dockets are just too full and to bring about a full blown trial would cost one a literal fortune!*


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

arbitrator said:


> *At fault divorces are going the way of the Kiwi bird!
> 
> Family court dockets are just too full and to bring about a full blown trial would cost one a literal fortune!*


Justice is worth paying for IMO, besides I'd rather folk out the legal fees for a lawyer who can win the case than to have an unfaithful spouse pocket the same cash. Besides when you have sizable assets legal fees are minor compared to what you would lose to an unfaithful spouse if it's 50/50.


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## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

No fault, but I don't always agree with an even split of the assets. I think there should be some sort of cap on the number regarding who brings home the bacon in a lot of cases. In some, it makes sense, but others its a complete rip off and somebody is going to get royally screwed over. Alimony should just go away completely. 

As the song goes, "Its cheaper to keep her"


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

RandomDude said:


> southbound said:
> 
> 
> > I can see good and bad for both. I think one negative of no fault is that it allows someone to decide they don’t like how their bread is being buttered, and they want out. There is no cheating, abuse, or anything, but suddenly things are being divided and families split up.
> ...


Maybe not if it that is what they genuinely wanted to do, but I think some people gave their little whims and mid life thoughts, and if they were just forced to take it more seriously and have a real reason for divorce, they might realize they didn’t want a divorce. 

I’ve known a few older couples who say they considered divorce in their younger years. They didn’t go through with it, and now in their older age, they are certainly glad they didn’t. 

In KY, there may as well be a drive- through for divorce. I think placing an order and getting it correct at a fast food restaurant is 
tougher than getting a divorce.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

frusdil said:


> It's so hard...on the one hand, there should be consequences for destroying a family (for both the person who cheated, and the person they cheated with), but people living in violent marriages should be able to leave without having to prove abuse either...


*The whole problem is that the state legislatures, the judiciary of the family law system, and the practicing attorneys do not find at-fault divorce laws as being remotely profitable any more!

To that end, all that it really does is to propagate a miscarriage of justice to the faithful spouse!

If that’s what it has all come to, then why marry?*


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

southbound said:


> Maybe not if it that is what they genuinely wanted to do, but I think some people gave their little whims and mid life thoughts, and if they were just forced to take it more seriously and have a real reason for divorce, they might realize they didn’t want a divorce.
> 
> *I’ve known a few older couples who say they considered divorce in their younger years. They didn’t go through with it, and now in their older age, they are certainly glad they didn’t. *
> 
> ...


In some cases it can be a bit like war. Being ready for war, encourages peace. In the same way, being ready for divorce, encourages reconciliation and changes.

In my own marriage when I began being serious about divorce - next thing I know she wanted reconciliation and made quite alot of changes. Except I made up my mind not to mention I saw my ticket and justification to get out of the marriage. She's a good woman and I'm sure if I was a better person we could have reconciled - I'm not.

My mother also recently began being serious about divorce due to her issues with her husband and suddenly he wanted reconciliation and made quite alot of changes to maintain the marriage. She decided to make the changes herself after seeing how much work he is finally putting into the marriage and now they are working things out.

Want peace? PREPARE FOR WAR!


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## Bonkers (Nov 26, 2017)

RandomDude said:


> Want peace? PREPARE FOR WAR!


Quoted for truth. 

Even if you want to save your marriage following infidelity you need to prepare for the end.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

I would prefer fault divorce. Since many marriages end because the actions of one I would like that to go on record. I also think that if you can prove abuse, including infidelity, alimony should taken off the table and unless other circumstances are present the spouse that cheats or abuses should not get sole custody.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I understand the desire for fairness, but rel life is often very complicated and ugly. Look at all the stories here where someone sexually abandons their spouse. Sometimes its because their spouse has become useless disgusting lump. Sometimes its for no reason at all, or because the person is actually gay. 

Divorce sounds easy, but with children, and shared property it can be extremely difficult in practice.

Sometimes both partners are cheating and only one gets caught. 

If you let cheating be a problem, you will have services set up to try to seduce spouses. 

I think it would just tie up the courts. 




Wolf1974 said:


> I would prefer fault divorce. Since many marriages end because the actions of one I would like that to go on record. I also think that if you can prove abuse, including infidelity, alimony should taken off the table and unless other circumstances are present the spouse that cheats or abuses should not get sole custody.


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## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

No Fault, i do think cheating should affect alimony but it would be too hard to administer and laws and systems always get abused.

I had a no fault divorce from a cheating wife and she got 50% of everything plus alimony but it was fast and relatively painless and we both knew where we stood since 50% is 50% and Alimony and CS are state calculated formulas.

I do despise paying alimony since she chose to not work on marriage, chose affair and divorce but its only for a few years luckily and then its over with.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I understand the desire for fairness, but rel life is often very complicated and ugly. Look at all the stories here where someone sexually abandons their spouse. Sometimes its because their spouse has become useless disgusting lump. Sometimes its for no reason at all, or because the person is actually gay.
> 
> Divorce sounds easy, but with children, and shared property it can be extremely difficult in practice.
> 
> ...


Doesn’t hold for me. If a spouse sexually abandons you then that’s cause for divorce not an excuse for cheating.

Anyone who thinks divorce is easy is a fool but sometimes necessary to leave an abusive situation. I know I lived it and divorced over it. Courts are already involved and tied up. it can take month to get a scheduled hearing in my jurisdiction. I don’t think having someone held as accountable would change much except to present evidence that abuse existed. To me that’s a better use of time for the courts than simple figuring out division of money, assets and children based on state formulas or the whim of the judge.


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