# Infidelity/Divorce contagious?



## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

I’ve been divorced for almost 3 years from my XWW. Since then, 3 of her close friends, all in their early forties, have gotten divorced. I am shocked because all three seemed to be great marriages and all of the wives seemed to be honest, rational women. 

Like my XWW, the first started cheating on her husband with some other dude. The second is unclear what happened but she suddenly wanted the divorce, and the third left her husband for another woman. I now refer to my XWW and her friends as the Insane X-wife Posse.

Aside and unrelated to these divorces, I personally know another 11 men who were cheated on by their wives in the last 10 years or so and are now divorced. WTF is going on out there? 

Every time I hear about a new one of these divorces, I feel like another little piece of my faith in women and marriage dies. Sadly, I’m starting to understand the MGTOW movement. 

So, do you think divorce/infidelity is contagious?


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

Just my opinion, but I think this is an unintended consequence of many things.
In random order:
1. Women have been told for 3 generations now to have everything
2. There is no societal stigma for cheating and divorcing
3. D is to easy
4. With more women working in fields traditionally mostly occupied by men, there is a lot of time spent with mixed groups that was traditionally only 'uni-sex'. You see SAHD at play dates with SAHM and you see way more interaction between men and women at work. The amount of time spent in these 'groups' probably rivals a lot of the time the couples have to be a couple.
5. I see women today as being incredibly more entitled than a generation ago. I am guessing men are as well. Too much of me, now culture out there.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Contagious? No. But once you see that divorce isn't the end of the world for someone you know, you may realize that there is a way to end your own misery or unhappiness. I have to assume that those marriages would not have ended in divorce if the relationships were good - there'd be nothing to gain and much to lose. Of course the cheating is unacceptable no matter what, but it can also be a symptom of other problems that have not been addressed. Was any attempt made? Only those involved may truly know.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

I think there was more of a stigma against divorce in the past, so people were more likely to stay in an unhappy marriage.

My dad was taught that if a woman cheats, he should stay with her and find a way to get her "back on the right path". But he would never dream of passing this advice to his sons, he'd tell them to leave.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

Good points.

The unhappy marriage has been mentioned here a couple times as being the reason for cheating. I don’t entirely agree. Usually cheating is an indication of an issue within the cheater, not the couple or the spouse. I have read many times that cheating happens in good marriages too. It did in mine. Like NOSizeQueen’s father, I took my own advice and chose to divorce.

My confusion is this. When we were married, my XWW would tell me everything that was going on in her friends marriages. There were a few couples that had issues but the couples that got divorced did not. If fact, it seemed to be the opposite. They seemed to be the blissful ones. 

As Married but Happy said, seeing a friend go through divorce and surviving, in fact, thriving, makes it a whole lot easier. I say thriving because they also get the inside scoop on how much alimony and child support they will get because of no-fault divorce. Also, they won’t have to feel ashamed about what they’ve done when they’re with their friends because they’ve all done it.

I also agree with Naiveonedave. There is a lot of selfishness and entitlement out there. I wonder if the marriages were not bad at all but they saw someone shiny and new that made them tingle, and they felt entitled to have it. 

With women being told for generations they deserve everything, no societal stigma for cheating and divorcing, and close friends that have took that step and were rewarded with cash, prizes, and parting gifts, for someone that is short on integrity, there does not appear to be a downside.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

I do think women are cheating at much higher rates than what's traditionally reported, I know of about 9 marriages that have faltered and each one including mine the wife or fiance cheated. If you look here it's probably 99:1 women:men cheating. Some say it's a confirmation bias, but I believe it's more accurate to what's really going on in society.

What's causing it? Few repercussions for adultery, disenfranchisement with marriage and their average working dude husbands, no shortage of available and willing men likely better looking and less restricted than their husband to wine, dine, and 69 them so to speak. Men don't file nearly as much as women because of the huge financial and familial hit they take. A woman gets the kids, the house, the nicer car, little of the debt, half her husbands salary, and gets her boyfriend to move in. It's no real mystery why women are blowing up marriage at a much greater rate than men, men have A LOT more to lose in divorce.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Some people will cheat no matter what state their marriage is in. But it's a lot easier for the average person to be tempted when they're unhappy at home.

Also, most of of our friends thought our marriage was great, because I didn't want to admit how unhappy I was and how much crap I took at home. Many were surprised when I left (no cheating on either side, just a zombie marriage). You don't really know what happens in another couple's home.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Decimated said:


> I’ve been divorced for almost 3 years from my XWW. Since then, 3 of her close friends, all in their early forties, have gotten divorced. I am shocked because all three seemed to be great marriages and all of the wives seemed to be honest, rational women.
> 
> Like my XWW, the first started cheating on her husband with some other dude. The second is unclear what happened but she suddenly wanted the divorce, and the third left her husband for another woman. I now refer to my XWW and her friends as the Insane X-wife Posse.
> 
> ...


As I've said in the past on these forums perception is everything.
I must know the 10 married dudes who cheated on their wives with the 10 women you know, because that's my experience. Yep, most of the people I know who cheated on their spouses were men. The difference is that when I hear these types of stories, instead of blaming the entire male gender for the widespread rise in infidelity, I blame the actual cheater for their immorality.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Decimated said:


> So with women being told for generations they deserve everything, no societal stigma for cheating and divorcing, close friends that have took that step and were rewarded with cash, prizes, and parting gifts.
> 
> So, for someone that is short on integrity, there does not appear to be a downside.


Infidelity isn't a woman vs man thing. I know this is quite complex but women cheat mostly with MEN. Infidelity has nothing to do to "women being told for generations they deserve everything". It has everything to do with people (men and women) who have zero integrity. Integrity is not gender specific.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think similar people with similar outlooks tend to find one another. My ex-husband was unfaithful. His friends new about it. They didn't mind because all of them were cheating on their wives too. There have only been a couple of divorces due to infidelity within that group, including mine. But that doesn't mean the guys are faithful, just that their wives either haven't found out or haven't left because of it. OP, it may simply be that your wife's social circle was largely made up of women who were similar in outlook to her, as my husband's was made up of men who were similar in outlook to him - prone to whatever societal, cultural, and personality factors make them more likely to be unfaithful. 

And, at least in my area, it's still more common for a BW to agree to reconcile than for a BH to do so. So, if the wife is cheating, the marriage ends. If the husband is cheating, it usually doesn't. I think that is largely a regional/cultural thing that will vary a lot depending on location.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Lila said:


> Infidelity isn't a woman vs man thing. I know this is quite complex but women cheat mostly with MEN. Infidelity has nothing to do to "women being told for generations they deserve everything". It has everything to do with people (men and women) who have zero integrity. Integrity is not gender specific.


I get what you're saying I do, and I don't think it's any general defect with women. I think if men had the advantages in the courts like women currently do, and women were levied with the penalties men are with a divorce (not seeing children, losing the marital home, loss of salary etc...) you would see the opposite swing and men would be filing for divorce a lot more and stepping out of the marriage a lot more.

Do I think women are cheating and divorcing a lot more? Yes. Do I think it's some inherent defect in women? No. I think it just has to do with what society has afforded them. Women can move on a lot easier from a divorce than a man can, and they take advantage of that.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

Rowan said:


> I think similar people with similar outlooks tend to find one another.


This reminded me of something that happened within her group years ago. They found out one of the wives and her husband were swingers. They couldn't kick her out her fast enough. She was bad mouthed and the but of jokes for years. So much so that they moved out of state.

Apparently, within her group of friends, swinging was completely unacceptable but cheating was allowed.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

In my entire family/friends clan, there have been two divorces. One uncle umpteen years ago (not cheating related), and one cousin who is happily remarried, also many years ago. That's it.

It could be the company you keep that you are seeing messy relationships everywhere.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

knobcreek said:


> Do I think women are cheating and divorcing a lot more? Yes. Do I think it's some inherent defect in women? No. I think it just has to do with what society has afforded them. Women can move on a lot easier from a divorce than a man can, and they take advantage of that.


I agree with this. It's been my observation as well. I only know of one husband that cheated on his wife. I found out later that his wife was simultaneously cheating on him. The rest of the cheaters were all wives.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

norajane said:


> In my entire family/friends clan, there have been two divorces. One uncle umpteen years ago (not cheating related), and one cousin who is happily remarried, also many years ago. That's it.
> 
> It could be the company you keep that you are seeing messy relationships everywhere.


Could be a generational thing too, I don't know how old you are. But knowing only two people who divorced would be rare today.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

knobcreek said:


> Could be a generational thing too, I don't know how old you are. But knowing only two people who divorced would be rare today.


I am 48, and my family spans all ages, of course. 

The only divorced people I know are people at work, and they are acquaintances, not who I count as friends. And there aren't but a small handful of them who are divorced, either. Most are quite happily married.


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## MRR (Sep 14, 2015)

Cheating aside, I read somewhere that 80% of divorces are initiated by women. 

When my ex and I moved our 2 kids back to our home state and she became a SAHM, she started hanging around an old high school friend who was getting ready to divorce her husband, while at the same time cheating on him with his good friend. I was stupid at the time and allowed my ex to associate with her, to use us as an alibi a time or two and even spend the night at her house a few times when they had been out drinking. 

Looking back on it, I am certain that my wife was entertaining the interest of other men-- they were at bars, drinking, living it up. The friend was divorced and had her kids every other weekend so she was "free" for those days she didnt have them. I remember a time my ex came home from her friends', a sunday morning. They had been out drinking, up late, and my ex woke her up before she left her apt to tell her something, and my ex told me the friend said, 'dont wake me up! sleeping in is one of the advantages of divorce!'

Again, looking back, I feel like that it was a pivotal moment in my ex process of basically checking out of the marriage. 

I was dumb to not even think anything of it but at the end of the day I am better off, but still, it may not be contagious however in this case my wife definitely saw a desirable lifestyle. Funny thing is...they have been friends since they were 10 years old and after my wife moved out the friend called me to tell me she didnt approve and didnt want to be seen as a reason for it, thought i was a great guy and 'shocked' that my ex was ending the marriage. 

Oh, not long after that, my ex's sister in law filed for devorce from my ex's brother.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

norajane said:


> In my entire family/friends clan, there have been two divorces. One uncle umpteen years ago (not cheating related), and one cousin who is happily remarried, also many years ago. That's it.
> 
> It could be the company you keep that you are seeing messy relationships everywhere.


Interesting.
All of the husbands are college educated professionals with solid, high paying careers. Most of the wive were SAHM's and/or part time workers. Most had no education beyond high school. I say SAHM's but the kids have all been in school full time for many years.

With in this group, there is a big difference in career income (husbands) and the amount of spare time for getting bored and into trouble (wives). This is a recipe for high alimony and child support.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

norajane said:


> I am 48, and my family spans all ages, of course.
> 
> The only divorced people I know are people at work, and they are acquaintances, not who I count as friends. And there aren't but a small handful of them who are divorced, either. Most are quite happily married.


I'm assuming you are in the US. What area of the country do you live in?


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## MRR (Sep 14, 2015)

norajane said:


> I am 48, and my family spans all ages, of course.
> 
> The only divorced people I know are people at work, and they are acquaintances, not who I count as friends. And there aren't but a small handful of them who are divorced, either. Most are quite happily married.


I've learned enough in the last 2 years never to speak of another couple as 'quite happily' married, even if in my own mind they are; and even if they have said it to my face. I do not believe that all marriages are terrible or unhappy, but I no longer describe anyone as 'quite happily married' as there is at least a 50% chance they are not. I would bet my house MOST are not 'quite happily married'.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Decimated said:


> Interesting.
> All of the husbands are college educated professionals with solid, high paying careers. Most of the wive were SAHM's and/or part time workers. Most had no education beyond high school. I say SAHM's but the kids have all been in school full time for many years.
> 
> With in this group, there is a big difference in career income (husbands) and the amount of spare time for getting bored and into trouble (wives). This is a recipe for high alimony and child support.


Did the men marry them mostly for their looks?

That seems to be a risk factor.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

MRR said:


> I've learned enough in the last 2 years never to speak of another couple as 'quite happily' married, even if in my own mind they are; and even if they have said it to my face. I do not believe that all marriages are terrible or unhappy, but I no longer describe anyone as 'quite happily married' as there is at least a 50% chance they are not. I would bet my house MOST are not 'quite happily married'.


It's not just marriages it's people, from the outside I look like the picture of success, great job as an executive manager, nice old Victorian in a nice Northeastern village, pretty wife, three great kids, in grad school for my MBA. But inside it's a ton of self-loathing and turmoil. I tend to think no one has got it all together, and no marriages are "great".

My one friend and his wife just separated, I don't know what for he's not opening up with it and obviously I'm not in communication with her. But I was absolutely shocked by it. They're the couple where every week they're posting pictures of some nice new restaurant, doing something fun and exciting, hugging and kissing and praising each other. It was unexpected, but I'm not in their marriage. It always depresses me about my own marriage "if THOSE two got divorced we don't stand a flippin chance".


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Decimated said:


> Interesting.
> All of the husbands are college educated professionals with solid, high paying careers. Most of the wive were SAHM's and/or part time workers. Most had no education beyond high school. I say SAHM's but the kids have all been in school full time for many years.
> 
> With in this group, there is a big difference in career income (husbands) and the amount of spare time for getting bored and into trouble (wives). This is a recipe for high alimony and child support.


We only have two SAHM's in the family, one is married to a college educated guy, and the other isn't. All the other women in the family work and always have, whether they have degrees or not, mostly not.



Decimated said:


> I'm assuming you are in the US. What area of the country do you live in?


I'm in the Windy City.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Among my circle, there aren't a lot of divorces (I'm 30, so there's a lot of singles and newlyweds). But most of the divorce I've seen among friends has been caused by domestic violence or drugs.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

jld said:


> Did the men marry them mostly for their looks?
> 
> That seems to be a risk factor.


The wives are all relatively attractive, but so are the husbands. I always thought they were well matched. I'm sure there was love involved at some point. I think they all started out at a similar level but some of the husbands stepped up and bettered their education and income to be good providers for their wives and families while the wive seemed content to just live off the benefits.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

norajane said:


> I am 48, and my family spans all ages, of course.
> 
> The only divorced people I know are people at work, and they are acquaintances, not who I count as friends. And there aren't but a small handful of them who are divorced, either. Most are quite happily married.


I am guessing that if they aren't friends and only acquaintances, then you have no idea how happily married they are. Often the ones that appear to be the happiest on the outside are only doing so to cover up being extremely unhappy in their marriage.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> I am guessing that if they aren't friends and only acquaintances, then you have no idea how happily married they are. Often the ones that appear to be the happiest on the outside are only doing so to cover up being extremely unhappy in their marriage.


I can only go by what my co-workers say, and by the fact that I've known them since starting this job over 8 years ago and they are still married and not divorced or in the process of divorcing.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

norajane said:


> I can only go by what my co-workers say, and by the fact that I've known them since starting this job over 8 years ago and they are still married and not divorced or in the process of divorcing.


I have worked with the same group of people for more than 15 years. They all think I have a perfect life and perfect marriage. I am still married and not in the process of divorcing either.

The vast majority of people don't show anyone (except close friends and family) how happy they truly are in a marriage.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> I have worked with the same group of people for more than 15 years. They all think I have a perfect life and perfect marriage. I am still married and not in the process of divorcing either.
> 
> The vast majority of people don't show anyone (except close friends and family) how happy they truly are in a marriage.


No doubt, but this thread was asking about divorce. I simply don't know a bunch of divorced people, so I wonder why others know tons of them. I guess that's how the stats balance out. Our own experiences are not representative of the whole.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

My grandmother had 13 grand children. There have only been two divorces, both due to adultery by non family members, mine and a sibling. The strange fact is 9 of the grandchildren had parents in bad marriages. Also my father came from a broken home. So I don't know anymore.

I also know in the past women who commited adultery were driven out by other women and men treated other men who committed adultery the same. Perhaps we forgotten how to mate guard.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

The biggest thing I've seen is poor boundaries. Men or women should never have close friendships and alone time with the opposite sex.

But the prevailing thought is its normal and can be controlled/handled. Famous last words.

I see the view of privacy for men and women when there should be full transparency in a marriage. Don't snoop or invade my privacy?????? Total bullsh!t. Trust me. Yah right!


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

I don't know about infidelity but I think divorce is catchy. Most of my female social group has divorced. Some are re-married.

I chalk it up to getting through raising small children then re-assessing whether or not you married the person you want to grow old with. Often times, you grow in different directions and just want something else.

Since I socialize with pretty much only educated career women, they don't have to stay married if they're unhappy or unsatisfied. 

To me, its a great thing that women don't have to stay in miserable marriages and once they realize that the relationship has changed or ended, can move on to something else. There's too many people stuck in crappy marriages due to dependence.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Since I socialize with pretty much only educated career women, they don't have to stay married if they're unhappy or unsatisfied.
> 
> To me, its a great thing that women don't have to stay in miserable marriages and once they realize that the relationship has changed or ended, can move on to something else. There's too many people stuck in crappy marriages due to dependence.


Here's a good point. Someone said earlier that working causes women to be unhappy with their marriage. I think those women would have been unhappy anyway, but working gives them a way out.

If I'd had the exact same marriage in 1950 that I did now, leaving wouldn't have been an option. In fact, I would have been advised to not bother my H with my issues and quietly deal with them myself, while still catering to his needs.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Someone said earlier that working causes women to be unhappy with their marriage.


Yea I think this is total b.s.

What it really is that working women have higher standards for partners because they can.

When you're not dependent on a man, they have to provide true partnership and companionship or the women they're married to aren't going to tolerate it and are going to look elsewhere.

How many times on this forum is there a woman complaining about not being in a financial position to get the divorce she wants and probably needs because she's in a position of financial dependence on a man?

Career women don't have to make those choices...thank goodness.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> Contagious? No. But once you see that divorce isn't the end of the world for someone you know, you may realize that there is a way to end your own misery or unhappiness. I have to assume that those marriages would not have ended in divorce if the relationships were good - there'd be nothing to gain and much to lose. Of course the cheating is unacceptable no matter what, but it can also be a symptom of other problems that have not been addressed. Was any attempt made? Only those involved may truly know.


your assumption is incorrect.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Before marriage we had to go to a Pre-marital Course. The consultant asked my wife and I about our family history. Were our parents divorced? Siblings? Aunts and Uncles?

When we answered that none of our family members had been divorced, the consultant told us we had a great chance of success. 

It think there is a bunch of truth to this. Some people go into marriage believe it is forever. Because that is all they have ever seen. Others go into marriage believing that if things don't go great, they can always get a divorce.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Hmm, let's see.

My wife and I were previously married, so that's one divorce each.
Her daughter has been married once before, got divorced and is remarried.
My mother was married twice, the first time ending in divorce and the second with the death of her husband.
One of my brothers has been married and is now divorced.
My other brother has been married to the same woman for 30 years or more.

As for infidelity, let me just say that of the four cases I'm aware of personally, three of the people I know were women and one was a man.

I'm not sure how valuable this data is, but there it is.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

By the way, divorce, at least, is contagious: Is divorce contagious? | Pew Research Center


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

A lot of studies suggest that men and women cheat at roughly the same rate, but a woman is more likely to leave after cheating. She tends to form an emotional attachment to the other guy, while a cheating man is more likely to have a no-strings affair and not wish to actually leave his wife.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

SadSamIAm said:


> Before marriage we had to go to a Pre-marital Course. The consultant asked my wife and I about our family history. Were our parents divorced? Siblings? Aunts and Uncles?
> 
> When we answered that none of our family members had been divorced, the consultant told us we had a great chance of success.
> 
> It think there is a bunch of truth to this. Some people go into marriage believe it is forever. Because that is all they have ever seen. Others go into marriage believing that if things don't go great, they can always get a divorce.


Much to be said for that - my parents are still married as are/were their parents. So I expected, prepared, invested, and sacrifice for the long haul. Expecting differences and hard times to "get ahead together".
My ex-wife and recent ex-partner had separated parents so they just expected to do their own thing, and if they weren't happy just to leave.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> It think there is a bunch of truth to this. Some people go into marriage believe it is forever. Because that is all they have ever seen. Others go into marriage believing that if things don't go great, they can always get a divorce.


My husband's parents have been married for 50 years. They're the sweetest people and cutest couple.

My husband was married for 30 years and got divorced.

Why? Because his ex wife and him were miserable and incompatible. Period.

I don't know anyone that went into a marriage expecting to get divorced. The fact is that relationships end. Some last 5 years and some last 50 years depending on the individual circumstances of the people in them.

And the reality these days is that women are more likely to be financially stable and don't have to stay in marriages anymore.

When I was a kid, I knew so many totally miserable married people it was insane...in fact, most married people I saw clearly detested each other. Now a days, divorce is simply more readily available and good for that.

They should actually make marriages far easier to get out of or make it a renewable contract. The marriage contract needs an update because the traditional one isn't very compatible with modern day relationships.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Married but Happy said:


> Contagious? No. But once you see that divorce isn't the end of the world for someone you know, you may realize that there is a way to end your own misery or unhappiness. I have to assume that those marriages would not have ended in divorce if the relationships were good - there'd be nothing to gain and much to lose. Of course the cheating is unacceptable no matter what, but it can also be a symptom of other problems that have not been addressed. Was any attempt made? Only those involved may truly know.


I think there is truth in what you are saying but people that divorce after seeing how others divorces went are really deluding themselves.

I think many people regret getting divorced. Sure a new relationship is exciting, but often after a few years, the marriage begins to look like the last one. No marriage is perfect and once the shiny new thing wears off, a bunch of work is required. 

As they say, the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. The grass is greenest where you water it.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

SadSamIAm said:


> I think many people regret getting divorced. Sure a new relationship is exciting, but often after a few years, the marriage begins to look like the last one. No marriage is perfect and once the shiny new thing wears off, a bunch of work is required.
> 
> As they say, the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. The grass is greenest where you water it.


Are you saying that they wish their marriage hadn't failed, or that they would remarry the ex-spouse if they had the chance?

I agree with the first part, but not the second.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

EnigmaGirl said:


> My husband's parents have been married for 50 years. They're the sweetest people and cutest couple.
> 
> My husband was married for 30 years and got divorced.
> 
> ...


I disagree. I think it is all about people's mindsets. People need to make sure they are with 'the one' before getting married. People need to realize that no marriage is perfect and that there are going to be many challenges. 

Getting out shouldn't be made easier. It should be made tougher. Society is creating people that have no commitment to anything because their parents were poor role models and had little commitment to each other.

The modern day relationships you are talking about are not good for families. If people want to change partners every 5 years, maybe marriage isn't for them.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

**** sapiens aren't very suited for monogamy. Marriage is legal form of social control.

I read somewhere that divorce and cheating occur less frequently when both husband and wife are well educated. I suppose that is because they are more careful in their choice of partners, but they also do more long term planning. They had the self control to get through school, so they have already been selected for the ability to spend time in the library studying instead of pub crawling.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

NoSizeQueen said:


> Are you saying that they wish their marriage hadn't failed, or that they would remarry the ex-spouse if they had the chance?
> 
> I agree with the first part, but not the second.


I have talked to a couple of men that got married. Had kids. Got divorced. Got remarried. 

Now they have been married for 15 years or more. Both mentioned that their first marriages weren't any worse than their current marriages. They just bailed instead of putting in the work. One of the guys told me he feels very guilty about what he did to his children.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Maybe it should be harder to get IN to a marriage.

All I needed to get married was one hour and $50 (courthouse wedding). 
The minimum to get divorced was one year and $250 (uncontested, no lawyer).


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

knobcreek said:


> I get what you're saying I do, and I don't think it's any general defect with women. I think if men had the advantages in the courts like women currently do, and women were levied with the penalties men are with a divorce (not seeing children, losing the marital home, loss of salary etc...) you would see the opposite swing and men would be filing for divorce a lot more and stepping out of the marriage a lot more.
> 
> Do I think women are cheating and divorcing a lot more? Yes. Do I think it's some inherent defect in women? No. I think it just has to do with what society has afforded them. Women can move on a lot easier from a divorce than a man can, and they take advantage of that.


The guys who I know cheated on their wives had two things in common.......They were over 40 and they were LOADED! It's pretty easy to keep mistresses hidden when you have that kind of money. 

Who knows.....maybe money is the culprit. 

My mother used to tell me that having money solved many problems....but it introduced a whole lot of other ones.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> I think there is truth in what you are saying but people that divorce after seeing how others divorces went are really deluding themselves.
> 
> I think many people regret getting divorced. Sure a new relationship is exciting, but often after a few years, the marriage begins to look like the last one. No marriage is perfect and once the shiny new thing wears off, a bunch of work is required.
> 
> As they say, the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. The grass is greenest where you water it.


Also absolute nonsense....lol, I know NO one that got divorced and regrets their divorce. In fact, very very very much the opposite.

Every single one of my women friends (and male friends at work) that have gotten remarried or are divorced & single are much happier. Mostly because they married young and really didn't understand compatibility. They thought they could change the person they were with. When you get older, you know yourself, you're more wary and you're more picky. You realize what type of person you're more likely to be compatible with and if you can't find them...you just stay single.

You can't make two people who are incompatible compatible. You either are or you're not.

My new husband and I are unbelievably happy because we're alike. We like the same things, we share the same opinion, we have the same parenting styles, we want the same things, we have the same goals. My ex and I never agreed on anything. Yes I could have stayed miserably married to him but no one should have to do that.

Long marriages are not necessarily successful marriages. I know a lot of miserable married people that will never leave each other and complain about each other all day. Its actually depressing to consider staying in such a relationship. Divorce is the best gift I ever gave to myself.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SadSamIAm said:


> As they say, the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. The grass is greenest where you water it.


Yes, so long as the other person isn't peeing on your leg and telling you it's raining. :surprise:


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Maybe it should be harder to get IN to a marriage.
> 
> All I needed to get married was one hour and $50 (courthouse wedding).
> The minimum to get divorced was one year and $250 (uncontested, no lawyer).


You're definitely right that marriage and divorce needs to change and eventually it will.

My first wedding cost 45 bucks
My divorce cost about 45,000 bucks in legal fees.

But it was sooo worth every penny.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Also absolute nonsense....lol, I know NO one that got divorced and regrets their divorce. In fact, very very very much the opposite.
> 
> Every single one of my women friends (and male friends at work) that have gotten remarried or are divorced & single are much happier. Mostly because they married young and really didn't understand compatibility. They thought they could change the person they were with. When you get older, you know yourself, you're more wary and you're more picky. You realize what type of person you're more likely to be compatible with and if you can't find them...you just stay single.
> 
> ...


I'm definitely a lot happier being married to my current wife than I was being married to my first wife.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

technovelist said:


> Hmm, let's see.
> 
> My wife and I were previously married, so that's one divorce each.
> Her daughter has been married once before, got divorced and is remarried.
> ...


Both sets of my grandparents were never divorced. 

Both sets of my wife's grandparents where never divorced.

Both my parents and my wife's parents were never divorced.

I have 4 siblings. All in long term marriages except one (her husband was an alcoholic and she left after her kids were raised).

My wife has two siblings. Neither have been divorced.

I have several uncles and aunts, cousins, etc. Can only think of two cousins that have gotten divorced.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Yes, so long as the other person isn't peeing on your leg and telling you it's raining.


So true. My ex had a mentality that you should never divorced too.

What that translated into was his paradigm that since he married me, he didn't have to behave to any acceptable standard or behavior criteria because I was his wife. 

I fixed that mistake in his logic.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Also absolute nonsense....lol, I know NO one that got divorced and regrets their divorce. In fact, very very very much the opposite.
> 
> Every single one of my women friends (and male friends at work) that have gotten remarried or are divorced & single are much happier. Mostly because they married young and really didn't understand compatibility. They thought they could change the person they were with. When you get older, you know yourself, you're more wary and you're more picky. You realize what type of person you're more likely to be compatible with and if you can't find them...you just stay single.
> 
> ...


How long have you been remarried for?

I think second marriages later in life can be happier. Typically because as you say, you know more about what you want. You are more realistic about not being able to change each other like you say.

But also, you they don't have to deal with children. They often don't have to deal with money issues. They aren't out at bars/partying etc. like younger couples. 

Also, most people that get divorced, would have a very hard time admitting they made a mistake to friends and family. People 'rewrite' their history. Remembering only what was bad in their previous marriage. Makes them feel better about the choices they have made.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

technovelist said:


> I'm definitely a lot happier being married to my current wife than I was being married to my first wife.


How long was your first marriage?

How long is your current marriage?

Maybe you just need to give it time.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SadSamIAm said:


> How long was your first marriage?
> 
> How long is your current marriage?
> 
> Maybe you just need to give it time.


My first marriage was 10 years.
My current marriage is 18 years, but we have been together for almost 20 years.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

technovelist said:


> My first marriage was 10 years.
> My current marriage is 18 years, but we have been together for almost 20 years.


That is awesome!!! Sounds like you made the right decision 20 years ago.

I am not saying that nobody should get divorced. I am just saying that many times people get divorced because marriage is tough. Raising kids is tough. Career changes, money issues, etc are all tough. 

I have been married for almost 30 years. First 5 were awesome. Little kids was very busy but marriage was still pretty good. Teenage years (2007 - 2014) were hell. The last year has been very good with a few ups and downs.

Really looking forward to the next 20 years with my wife. Kids will be grown and were a large reason for our disagreements. We have built up a pretty good retirement fund (which wouldn't have been the case if we had divorced). I might have bailed a few years back and been happier. Could easily have bailed, created a bunch of misery for my wife and kids, and ended up in a worse relationship.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> How long have you been remarried for?
> 
> I think second marriages later in life can be happier. Typically because as you say, you know more about what you want. You are more realistic about not being able to change each other like you say.
> 
> ...


I was with my 1st husband for 21 years

I've been with my new husband for 6 years and we have 5 children between the two of us. 3 of them are pretty independent but 2 of them we're financial responsible for and one of those lives at home (the other is on campus). So we deal with children and/or grandchildren everyday. We'll be together for the rest of our lives...everything about us is perfectly in sync and our families and kids all love each other. I simply picked the right person for me.

Its true we don't have any money issues...my new husband is very well off and I do pretty well myself...but I really didn't have any with my ex either until the divorce. We both had good careers.

And don't need to explain myself to any friends or family. I seriously do not give a rat's butt about their opinion on whether or not I should have stayed in my unhappy marriage. They didn't deal with it on a daily basis, I did...besides, my family and friends were very happy for me and would support me whatever happened. I don't have any judgmental relatives or friends that would think its their place to comment on my relationship status that way and I'd go to them if I needed their support without fear.

Your premise just simply doesn't apply to me or any divorced person I know. Everyone I know that got divorced really labored with their decision and simply couldn't take it anymore. No one I know wanted to get divorced...it was simply their only option to end a miserable relationship and none of them are regretful of the fact that the misery is over.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Your premise just simply doesn't apply to me or any divorced person I know. Everyone I know that got divorced really labored with their decision and simply couldn't take it anymore. No one I know wanted to get divorced...it was simply their only option to end a miserable relationship and none of them are regretful of the fact that the misery is over.


Truth.

SadSam, I've seen a lot of marriage and a lot of divorce, but my experience must have been very different than yours. 

I'm glad you're happy in your marriage. I had to choose between my marriage and my happiness, and I chose to be happy. I don't regret that. Most divorced people I know would say the same thing.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Really looking forward to the next 20 years with my wife. Kids will be grown and were a large reason for our disagreements. We have built up a pretty good retirement fund (which wouldn't have been the case if we had divorced). I might have bailed a few years back and been happier. Could easily have bailed, created a bunch of misery for my wife and kids, and ended up in a worse relationship.


That's really nice...congratulations.

But my ex-husband and I very much grew into different people. He was a complete angry, pessimist type and we ended up having completely different interests. The last 12 years of my marriage, we had separate master bedroom/bathroom suites on opposite sides of the house. 

Our incompatibility had nothing to do with the labors of marriage and everything to do with the fact that we simply did not view life or the world the same way. He literally told me one that he expected to be miserable and that things would go wrong or be bad...that's how life was. He lived then...and continues to live now...that self-fulfilling prophesy everyday. In fact, his mother was like that too...she was a very nice lady but always unhappy.

I disagreed with that philosophy. I like being happy and I seek to be around people that are positive and make me happy. I think life is fun and kinda awesome. I relish every day I'm on the right side of the dirt and didn't want to waste it with someone that didn't feel the same way and didn't want to try harder to be happy for themselves and with me.

Its however really nice that you and your wife have made it through and still want to be together and spend your life together. Congratulations!


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## Florida_rosbif (Oct 18, 2015)

MRR said:


> They had been out drinking, up late, and my ex woke her up before she left her apt to tell her something, and my ex told me the friend said, 'dont wake me up! sleeping in is one of the advantages of divorce!'


Made me think of a colleague if mine who divorced his wife. He then married a lady who was herself divorced. They then organised their lives to have the kids from both previous marriages on the same week, so they alternated a week with a house full of kids then a week just hanging out as a couple. On their off weekend they would do mini breaks and visit around Europe, sight seeing, screwing, drinking and playing golf.

Now, if you regularly did mini breaks like that but paid a child minder to look after your kids, you would be a "bad" and selfish parent, and would probably feel guilty. However, if the kids are with the previous spouse it's completely normal and you're free as a bird!

It actually made divorce seem quite appealing, even if I was happily married at the time!


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SadSamIAm said:


> That is awesome!!! Sounds like you made the right decision 20 years ago.


Everyone I knew thought so at the time too.

Did I mention that my first wife wasn't very likable? >


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

EnigmaGirl said:


> I don't know about infidelity but I think divorce is catchy. Most of my female social group has divorced. Some are re-married.
> 
> I chalk it up to getting through raising small children then re-assessing whether or not you married the person you want to grow old with. Often times, you grow in different directions and just want something else.
> 
> ...


There are too many people stuck in crappy marriages because they are not willing to work on their marriages. Because they are not willing to communicate face to face instead of via their darn phones.

Because many adults in these crapoy marriages are selfish and thus unwilling to look within themselves as to why they are truly unhappy.

They would rather take the easy way out, walk away from the marriage and start over......

That is what is wrong today.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I'm going to stir up sh!t here but that's me.....

The problem many guys have is that they are not used to experiencing what they do now. Cheating men is nothing new, and until recently in our history women couldn't do anything about it; men made sure that women were financially dependent, spousal abuse was perfectly legal, and it was seen as a man's right to cheat. Women had to stay and put up with it.

Women have always cheated too (who do you think the men were cheating with) except that they had to hide it, while men were free to keep it in the open. Geneticists think that up to 30% of children born in wedlock throughout history did not belong to the husband, but of course until modern DNA testing you couldn't know that. Unless different races were involved.....I don't pretend to know how they figure this stuff out as I'm not a geneticist.

Now that women are becoming more financially independent they are now free to do the things men have always done, like cheat openly. They can also leave, and we all know that one of the differences between genders is that it's more likely that a guy cheats for sex but still wants his marriage while many women cheat for emotional connection, and are thus more likely to leave.

And it is true that traditionally women have had the upper hand in divorce court, but did you ever stop to wonder how that started? Hint: men created it. Not modern men, but you fathers and grandfathers.....by perpetuating the notion that a woman's place was in the home, taking care of children, and dependent on her husband. Of course with that mentality it was assumed that children belonged with their mother, and since women weren't allowed to support themselves they were seen as dependents of their husbands. 

Of course this only worked if she couldn't leave, but once she could you see what happened: kids were seen as belonging with mom and women were assumed to need support.

What's the answer to this? The very feminism and equality that so many men despise! When dads are seen as just as much a part of parenting as moms you will see equality in custody, and you're already seeing that.....that's a great thing. And as more women support themselves men will be less on the hook to support her, and I don't see how that's a bad thing. But keep in mind that womens' careers are still more likely to suffer over raising kids, so guys please step up and share this so we may all be seen as equals. I have two sons and I certainly don't want to see them get screwed in family court, yet I also want them to understand their role in setting up a situation at home where they might get screwed.

And let's lose this mentality that it's the guy's job to provide; it's the couple's job to provide for their children and whatever arrangement they work out is between them. I make very good money and am good at what I do, and am really not that great of a housekeeper (though I do cook pretty well) so it would be a waste to force me to stay home. I'm much more suited to the workforce.....if anything my hb would make a better house-spouse as he's very organized.

As for cheating? That's an unfortunate reality now, and I do not think the return to the good old days when people "didn't give up" would accomplish anything. Sure they stayed married but many were miserable, and if you think just as many didn't cheat I have a bridge to sell you. They just didn't leave the family over it, so that begs the question of whether one would be ok with their spouse cheating if they didn't leave? Of course not, we all want and rightly expect fidelity out of our partners. And let's not forget that in those good old days men didn't get oral or any kind of porn sex, and many times got no sex (no birth control and women were told that good girls didn't give it up) at all yet couldn't leave. We see men being told to leave over sexless marriages all the time now, yet that wouldn't have happened in the good old days. And that's not a bad thing because you really do only get one life to live.

Welcome to our world guys, a world where partners cheat. All you can really do is do your best to choose a partner of character and if they change into someone without character you may be forced to move on.

If it makes you feel any better us women really do know what you're going through.....we're all in this together.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

I don't know any women personally who has cheated and got a divorce. The three couples I know who are divorced, one was because my Uncle cheated on my Aunt and left her and the other two marriages both spouses wanted the divorce because they had grown apart. Of course most of my friends where from my Catholic high school and they have all been married over 20 years. 

I do think more women are cheating mostly because they are in the workforce a lot more these day and that not only exposes them to more men (it seems like most women who cheat meet the OM at work) but they have the money to leave an unhappy marriage and divorce is not frowned upon like it use to be.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm going to stir up sh!t here but that's me.....
> 
> *The problem many guys have is that they are not used to experiencing what they do now. *Cheating men is nothing new, and until recently in our history women couldn't do anything about it; men made sure that women were financially dependent, spousal abuse was perfectly legal, and it was seen as a man's right to cheat. Women had to stay and put up with it.
> 
> ...


I'm requoting this because a like just isn't good enough. It's everything I wanted to say, but Life has said it far, far more eloquently than I could.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

knobcreek said:


> I get what you're saying I do, and I don't think it's any general defect with women. *I think if men had the advantages in the courts like women currently do, and women were levied with the penalties men are with a divorce (not seeing children, losing the marital home, loss of salary etc...) you would see the opposite swing and men would be filing for divorce a lot more and stepping out of the marriage a lot more.
> *


In the last decade or so, men and women cheat at about the same rate, with women about 2 percentage points less than men.

From what I have read, men who cheat usually do it have sex with different women.

Women usually cheat at the point in their marriage where they are done. They have 1.5 feet out the door and so could care less anymore about the marriage. 




knobcreek said:


> Do I think women are cheating and divorcing a lot more? Yes. Do I think it's some inherent defect in women? No. I think it just has to do with what society has afforded them. Women can move on a lot easier from a divorce than a man can, and they take advantage of that.


Women today are cheating more than the women did in the past because in the past they had no options.. it's not like they could leave a marriage and support themselves. 

And in the past, since the wife could not leave and support herself, men had basically carte blanc to cheat. Growing up, it was made clear that men cheat and women just look the other way ... because she had no choice.

Why do women file for divorce more? Well from my experience it's not because women are cheating more, it's because men and women are about equally responsible for the demise of their marriage. But men usually leave it up to the women. And she files because she's left with the kids.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

lifeistooshort said:


> I'm going to stir up sh!t here but that's me.....
> 
> The problem many guys have is that they are not used to experiencing what they do now. Cheating men is nothing new, and until recently in our history women couldn't do anything about it; men made sure that women were financially dependent, spousal abuse was perfectly legal, and it was seen as a man's right to cheat. Women had to stay and put up with it.
> 
> ...


So the choice is open marriage or divorce. 

I think you are wrong. There are more people out there with character than you think. What you mention in your post above is actually the minority of cases.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

SadSamIAm said:


> So the choice is open marriage or divorce.
> 
> I think you are wrong. There are more people out there with character than you think. What you mention in your post above is actually the minority of cases.


She's not saying that good marriages don't exist. She's saying that way a bad marriage plays out has changed, because the power balance between genders has shifted.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

There were quite a few jobs for women in the past... just not the nice glamorous ones like today. supporting oneself wasn't so much the problem, physical safety was.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

"The problem many guys have is that they are not used to experiencing what they do now. Cheating men is nothing new, and until recently in our history women couldn't do anything about it; men made sure that women were financially dependent, spousal abuse was perfectly legal, and it was seen as a man's right to cheat. Women had to stay and put up with it.

Women have always cheated too (who do you think the men were cheating with) except that they had to hide it, while men were free to keep it in the open"


That's a load of crap.

Men and women cheating was extremely common.
The difference was that a man cheating was considered "satisfying a need that his wife wouldn't", where the woman was considered "unfaithful". Considering most of the time the man was the provider of shelter, reputation, and upkeep; and the wifes primary role was social proprietary and fidelity; it is clear why such a difference was common. A working woman cheating was not unheard (low wages, long hours) but had nowhere near the stigma of the kept wife (even though the latter were famed for their dalliances).

In corridors of reputable folk a man having relations with people outside his station (eg his wife, and female staff) was rather scandalous, and meant a man who could not be trusted in business or honesty, a very important blow. Those who got away with public affairs had _nothing_ to do with their masculinity, and everything to do with their station and resources (so lets instead speak of those who _would_ knowingly and willingly feed such reputations ... whether "it's good to be the king" (prince/commander/knight) or just getting a backstage pass/bandbus/meeting at the executive party. as for the hiding it? It was get it done free and easy, then when wanting to settle down, sweep it under the carpet and wear white. Where many males did not have (or even want) such a lifestyle or parties, yet are supposed to satisfied with the "seconds"..... (and blamed for not "being fun")


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

5 yrs ago when my old lady got busted cheating I saw...and noticed a lot of shady things strangers were doing. Noticed more folks screwing around in parked cars, folks meeting in parking lot and taking off in one car, and even traveling for work noticed the 1hr hook up at the hotel the co. put me up in.

My point is when you buy a '10 black Ford Mustang you notice a lot of '10 black Ford Mustangs. So with that said, when one is going through crap like infidelity / divorce one seems to notice folks going through the same shyt.

That's my $0.02


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

SadSamIAm said:


> So the choice is open marriage or divorce.
> 
> I think you are wrong. There are more people out there with character than you think. What you mention in your post above is actually the minority of cases.


That isn't at all what Life's saying. She's saying that we're all in this together and it's up to all of us to make things better.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

NoSizeQueen said:


> If I'd had the exact same marriage in 1950 that I did now, leaving wouldn't have been an option. In fact, I would have been advised to not bother my H with my issues and quietly deal with them myself, while still catering to his needs.


This is true. The same with me. Had I been married to my cheating, abusive husband back then.. I would have been told that's what men do and to deal with it.

I know a lot of older women who got that advice... and had no choice but to deal.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> So the choice is open marriage or divorce.
> 
> I think you are wrong. There are more people out there with character than you think. What you mention in your post above is actually the minority of cases.


Nowhere in that post did she advocate for open marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

spotthedeaddog said:


> There were quite a few jobs for women in the past... just not the nice glamorous ones like today. supporting oneself wasn't so much the problem, physical safety was.


I suppose what you are suggesting here is that women in the past could always be prostitutes.

WTH???


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Back in the day married guys cheated and so did married women.

The married man went to work and had the dance hall girls, the secretary, maid, and even the waitress.

The married women stayed home and let the vacuum cleaner sales men, milkman, poolboy, and even the postmen come in and stay "a while" will the husband was at working doing the dance hall girl, secretary, maid, and /or the waitress.

I just think when one is going through the drama it's easier to notice other going through the same drama.

I mean is everyone phucking around on their spouse?


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> I suppose what you are suggesting here is that women in the past could always be prostitutes.
> 
> WTH???


Try to think past the women's genitals. I'm not saying the jobs were great (or even good) what I'm saying is they were there - in fact that's exactly what I said.

But yes sadly many women would rather make a living on their backs with their genitals...married or divorced. Actually the divorced ones had better standards and backbone, so were less likely to end up in prostitution. But the jobs were hard and not fun and no glamour, unlike todays' careers - no endless meetings and media frenzy.

the one place that was _truly_ hard for a woman to do, was those who wanted to own/start a business, then that really did limit options to things like orphanages and madams.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Try to think past the women's genitals. I'm not saying the jobs were great (or even good) what I'm saying is they were there - in fact that's exactly what I said.
> 
> But yes sadly many women would rather make a living on their backs with their genitals...married or divorced. Actually the divorced ones had better standards and backbone, so were less likely to end up in prostitution. But the jobs were hard and not fun and no glamour, unlike todays' careers - no endless meetings and media frenzy.
> 
> the one place that was _truly_ hard for a woman to do, was those who wanted to own/start a business, then that really did limit options to things like orphanages and madams.


Your comment that women had safety issues if they worked is what made me think that you were talking about prostitution.

Yea the jobs available to women sucked for the most part. they also paid about half of what a man doing the same thing would get. For the vast majority of women, having to find a job to support herself relegated her and her children to abject poverty.

While you seem to thing that many the jobs women aspire to today are all about glamor... you are wrong. It's about being able to and even allowed (yes allowed) to pursue a career where a woman can get the education and work in a field where she can be challenged and meet her potential. 

For example in 1970, women with a law degree usually could only get a job as legal secretary. While their male classmates were became partners in the same law firm. That is beyond ridiculous. But that's what it was like.

Just wondering.... Are they 'glamor' careers/job when men work at them? 

And of course today the vast majority of women still work at the lower paying jobs and have  no real career. So it's not like all women are getting these 'glamor' jobs.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

My personal opinion and based on what I have seen is that yes divorce is "contagious" and yes women now cheat as much as men do. 

now obviously divorce isn't a disease but the unknown is a very scary thing for many of us. So many men and women in bad marriages are hesitant to pull that plug. Then they see one of their friends go through it and they see everything is ok on the other side...suddenly not so scary anymore and the domino effect occurs. I was told I inspired 2 of my colleagues to leave her wives because of how I handled my divorce and picked myself back up after to start dating. Was interesting to me because I never wanted to divorce in the first place and certinaly don't want to be an inspiration for it. 

Since I consider infidelity a character issue, not a gender issue, I don't think that is exactly the same. I don't think you can inspire someone to cheat. What I think is more likely is that you tend to gravitate toward your equals...so you will generally have friends of low character if you are of low character yourself .


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> This is true. The same with me. Had I been married to my cheating, abusive husband back then.. I would have been told that's what men do and to deal with it.
> *
> I know a lot of older women who got that advice... and had no choice but to deal*.


Yes. My long suffering, late mother of 6 was simply told by her family: "You made your bed, now you must lie on it." 

My father was out every night with his friends, coming home drunk, belligerent and verbally abusive. It was only after both my parents had died that we found out about the daughter he'd had with another woman. God knows how my mother tolerated him for all those years.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Cosmos said:


> Yes. My long suffering, late mother of 6 was simply told by her family: "You made your bed, now you must lie on it."
> 
> My father was out every night with his friends, coming home drunk, belligerent and verbally abusive. It was only after both my parents had died that we found out about the daughter he'd had with another woman. God knows how my mother tolerated him for all those years. I can only remember my father ever giving my mother one gift in the entire time I knew them. It used to hurt me terribly to see her hand him Christmas and birthday presents and never receive anything in return.


One thing you know about your mother. She was a much much better person than he. To me, her giving him those gifts is a show of strength. 

My maternal great aunts went through similar things. It was disgusting. But they persevered, and they outlived the SOB uncles. They had a great time after that.. and good for them.

.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> I think there is truth in what you are saying but people that divorce after seeing how others divorces went are really deluding themselves.
> 
> I think many people regret getting divorced. Sure a new relationship is exciting, but often after a few years, the marriage begins to look like the last one. No marriage is perfect and once the shiny new thing wears off, a bunch of work is required.
> 
> As they say, the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence. The grass is greenest where you water it.


Sometimes. Many people are glad to have divorced. Some people married the wrong person, and no amount of work will make it good marriage. That effort may be better applied to a new relationship. Yes, some people will repeat their mistakes, and some will learn from them.

The grass may be greener when watered, but sometimes you only have weeds. Kill the weeds, and reseed - maybe a different patch of ground.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

spotthedeaddog said:


> your assumption is incorrect.


For you, probably. In general, probably not.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

LongWalk said:


> **** sapiens aren't very suited for monogamy. Marriage is legal form of social control.
> 
> I read somewhere that divorce and cheating occur less frequently when both husband and wife are well educated. I suppose that is because they are more careful in their choice of partners, but they also do more long term planning. They had the self control to get through school, so they have already been selected for the ability to spend time in the library studying instead of pub crawling.


I disagree with the first line. 
Humans have vastly superior brains that are capable of reason, empathy and complex choices. We are not just another animal. It's not that we, as a species, are not naturally suited towards monogamy, it's that some of us are choosing not to be. If we want to be monogamous we can be monogamous. I don't view marriage as a form of social control. Maybe the folks that do are more likely to cheat and divorce. Marriage served a very important role in our ancestors society. Generations ago, a husband and wife needed each other just to survive and raise their children. We each had roles with in the relationship to ensure that success. In our current society, there are plenty of safety nets to ensure our survival without the need to rely on the marital partner. because of this, marriages are more disposable.

I totally agree with the second part. 
Well educated people probably divorce and cheat at a lesser rate. The choice of partners, long term planning, and general focus on goals in life, family and careers, would definitely increase the likelihood that the couple would remain monogamous and be working toward a common goal. This same mindset would also be more adverse to making irrational/emotional decisions because of the potential loss of what they've collectively sought to achieve. This type of person probably would naturally avoid situations where their priorities could be potentially at risk.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

EnigmaGirl said:


> I was with my 1st husband for 21 years
> 
> I've been with my new husband for 6 years and we have 5 children between the two of us.


You're still on your honeymoon.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Also absolute nonsense....lol, I know NO one that got divorced and regrets their divorce. In fact, very very very much the opposite.
> 
> Every single one of my women friends (and male friends at work) that have gotten remarried or are divorced & single are much happier. Mostly because they married young and really didn't understand compatibility. They thought they could change the person they were with. When you get older, you know yourself, you're more wary and you're more picky. You realize what type of person you're more likely to be compatible with and if you can't find them...you just stay single.
> 
> ...


Interesting.
All these happy second marriages must be the exception, not the rule. The divorce rate for second marriages is approximately 60-65%. Also, I've read studies that show married people are generally happier than divorced people.


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Decimated said:


> Interesting.
> All these happy second marriages must be the exception, not the rule. The divorce rate for second marriages is approximately 60-65%. Also, I've read studies that show married people are generally happier than divorced people.


Apparently married people receive less mental health treatment than non-married people, with divorced people being the highest in terms of medicating and seeking therapy.

But all that tells me is divorced people look to fix their issues the most, and that makes sense. A failed marriage is a huge life altering personal failure. It deserves much introspection and attempts to fix what is wrong. Many married people are miserable, self-loathing, depressed individuals but they do not seek treatment, this is especially true of men. I don't think that means married people are happier, only they don't seek treatment as often as divorced people.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Decimated said:


> Interesting.
> All these happy second marriages must be the exception, not the rule. The divorce rate for second marriages is approximately 60-65%. Also, I've read studies that show married people are generally happier than divorced people.


Yes, I understand that the divorce rate for second marriages is higher than that for first marriages.

But the populations are not the same. Some people will never get divorced no matter how unhappy they are, so obviously they will never have a second marriage (other than by widowhood, which is pretty rare other than at advanced ages). The people who are in second marriages (other than as a result of widowhood) obviously don't have a total aversion to divorce, and thus are self-selected for a higher probability of divorce than those in first marriages.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

NoSizeQueen said:


> She's not saying that good marriages don't exist. She's saying that way a bad marriage plays out has changed, because the power balance between genders has shifted.


I agree and it is good that women can now get out of bad marriages easier.

But I stand by my point that because it is easier, marriages fail more often not just because they are 'bad'. People walk away when it gets tough because it is easier for them to leave. They talk about how 'bad' the marriage was. They re-write history to make the marriage look so 'bad' when there was actually plenty of good. That hard work and communication and loyalty often could of been a better choice.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

EleGirl said:


> Nowhere in that post did she advocate for open marriage.


I guess I used the wrong term. When people are cheating, I guess it isn't referred to as an open marriage unless the people cheating agree to it.

Her post was mostly about men cheat and women cheat and they always have. That in the past men got away with it because women had little choice but to stay in the marriage. Now women are more able to support themselves and leave.

And I agree that it is good that women don't have to put up with being married to bad husbands. 

Just don't agree that most men and women are cheating.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

technovelist said:


> Yes, I understand that the divorce rate for second marriages is higher than that for first marriages.
> 
> But the populations are not the same. Some people will never get divorced no matter how unhappy they are, so obviously they will never have a second marriage (other than by widowhood, which is pretty rare other than at advanced ages). The people who are in second marriages (other than as a result of widowhood) obviously don't have a total aversion to divorce, and thus are self-selected for a higher probability of divorce than those in first marriages.


I think you made my point. 

Nothing to do with bad vs good marriages. More to do with level of commitment.


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> I agree and it is good that women can now get out of bad marriages easier.
> 
> But I stand by my point that because it is easier, marriages fail more often not just because they are 'bad'. People walk away when it gets tough because it is easier for them to leave. They talk about how 'bad' the marriage was. They re-write history to make the marriage look so 'bad' when there was actually plenty of good. That hard work and communication and loyalty often could of been a better choice.


I agree with this.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

technovelist said:


> But the populations are not the same. Some people will never get divorced no matter how unhappy they are, so obviously they will never have a second marriage (other than by widowhood, which is pretty rare other than at advanced ages). The people who are in second marriages (other than as a result of widowhood) obviously don't have a total aversion to divorce, and thus are self-selected for a higher probability of divorce than those in first marriages.


There really is nothing that supports why 2nd marriages fail more than 1st marriages. It is likely a myriad of reasons: people who D once are less afraid to do it again, people who D are broken to begin with, people who D have bad 'pickers', etc. All sorts of reasons that may or may not have anything to do happiness.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> I agree and it is good that women can now get out of bad marriages easier.
> 
> But I stand by my point that because it is easier, marriages fail more often not just because they are 'bad'. People walk away when it gets tough because it is easier for them to leave. They talk about how 'bad' the marriage was. They re-write history to make the marriage look so 'bad' when *there was actually plenty of good*. That *hard work and communication and loyalty often could of been a better choice*.


There wasn't much good left. I'd tried the hard, communication, and loyalty, and had it thrown back in my face. Sometimes it works - often if does not. Knowing when to move on vs. stick it out is a matter of individual assessment and tolerance.

Besides, unless you have dependent children, leaving a poor marriage isn't a problem. There is no point in staying, and even with dependent children, it is often the best thing for everyone.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Of course it's "easier" to leave. Fixing a truly bad marriage is next to impossible, but leaving it is not. The times when it's not easier to leave are times when the marriage is pretty good, so people tend to fix it instead of leaving.

People decide to leave when fixing the marriage isn't worth the effort. I don't see any honor in stubbornly holding on to a bad relationship just so I can say I'm still married. My goal in life is not long marriage, it's happiness.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> I agree and it is good that women can now get out of bad marriages easier.
> 
> But I stand by my point that because it is easier, marriages fail more often not just because they are 'bad'. People walk away when it gets tough because it is easier for them to leave. They talk about how 'bad' the marriage was. They re-write history to make the marriage look so 'bad' when there was actually plenty of good. That hard work and communication and loyalty often could of been a better choice.


Agreed.

Whenever I heard someone refer to their marriage as bad, I always assumed that meant there was physical or mental/verbal abuse, drug or alcohol abuse, philandering, a spouse that wouldn't communicate or compromise or a spouse that was lazy and couldn't provide for his family. I guess I need to expand the definition of a "bad" marriage to include things like: We didn't go on enough vacations, you didn't buy me enough jewelry, You couldn't afford the mansion I wanted, you didn't add constant excitement to my life, you didn't spend every waking minute catering to my every whim and making me deliriously happy.

I realize that some of these are a bit over the top but the point is, the definition of a bad marriage has changed...IMO


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

Just like every marriage that doesn't end in divorce isn't necessarily "good", every marriage that ends in divorce isn't necessarily "bad". Many people get divorced when really the marriage is working, maybe needs a few tweaks, some get divorced because of one bad decision that implodes an otherwise good to great marriage. Some get divorced because they're just bored and want new love or to bang other people and they're immature and selfish. It doesn't mean the marriage was "bad".


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Who defines a "bad marriage"?

If vacations and jewelry are a deal breaker for someone, and their marriage can't provide that, wouldn't that be a bad marriage for them? Even if we think that's silly, it's still something they want and aren't getting.

I always thought a bad marriage was a marriage that doesn't allow happiness for one or both spouses.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

NoSizeQueen said:


> Who defines a "bad marriage"?
> 
> If vacations and jewelry are a deal breaker for someone, and their marriage can't provide that, wouldn't that be a bad marriage for them? Even if we think that's silly, it's still something they want and aren't getting.


I still think those would fall under the category of Frivolous Divorces



NoSizeQueen said:


> I always thought a bad marriage was a marriage that doesn't allow happiness for one or both spouses.


Carefully worded. I agree that "allowing for happiness would be a big issue and the root cause could be abuse or neglect. "Providing" happiness is something all together different. That can be an exhausting and never ending task for the provider like filling a bottomless chasm. Unfortunately in today's culture, providing happiness seems to be more expected and not enough sought from within.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Decimated said:


> I still think those would fall under the category of Frivolous Divorces


Frivolous to you and me, yes.
But not frivolous to someone who believes their value depends on their bank account. If they feel they need these things, and its not a priority to their spouse, do you think they should stay anyway? Anger and resentment lead to a whole other kind of bad marriage.

Maybe I'm just having trouble understanding why a person should stay in a marriage, if they know it won't give them the things they feel they need.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

My SO is a vacation person. Specifically, scuba vacations. If I didn't enjoy that and didn't ever want to go, that would be a big problem in terms of his and my happiness. It's not frivolous to either of us - it's his passion and he lives for the time he spends underwater. To someone else, that might seem frivolous looking at the big picture, but it isn't to him.

I'm not a jewelry person in that I'd never leave because someone didn't buy me jewelry. I can buy my own, lol. However, if he did buy me lots of jewelry? I'd be more likely to be upset about THAT because that seems like a waste of money to me. If my SO didn't agree with my need for financial security and didn't plan for the future like I do, that would be a huge problem for me. I'd never be able to be happy unless both of us had similar views on how money should be spent, saved and invested.

Things that look frivolous to others often aren't as simple or frivolous as they appear.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Ah, jewelry. My wife likes jewelry, but only has a couple of expensive pieces. She's just as content with nice costume jewelry, or man-made gemstones. We each have a few very modest frivolous enjoyments, so while it may be superfluous spending, we have everything including retirement well-covered financially. We want to enjoy life now - responsibly - as who knows what tomorrow will bring that could prevent it?


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## knobcreek (Nov 18, 2015)

NoSizeQueen said:


> If vacations and jewelry are a deal breaker for someone, and their marriage can't provide that, wouldn't that be a bad marriage for them?


I, Beth, take you, John, to be my lawfully wedded husband, to have and to hold, from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part (unless you can't buy me really expensive jewelry and vacations, then forget the first part). :smile2:


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Ha!

If John was on here complaining that Beth was always resentful and nasty because he didn't buy her jewelry like he used to, he'd probably be told to leave his ungrateful and disrespectful wife.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

NoSizeQueen said:


> If vacations and jewelry are a deal breaker for someone, and their marriage can't provide that, wouldn't that be a bad marriage for them?





Decimated said:


> I still think those would fall under the category of Frivolous Divorces


I disagree. If I was married to someone that cared more about vacations and jewelry than me, then I would consider that a bad marriage. That divorce would not be frivolous.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> But I stand by my point that because it is easier, marriages fail more often not just because they are 'bad'. People walk away when it gets tough because it is easier for them to leave. They talk about how 'bad' the marriage was. They re-write history to make the marriage look so 'bad' when there was actually plenty of good. That *hard work and communication and loyalty* often could of been a better choice.


lmao. I was married for 21 years to my 1st husband...I didn't just take off because it was hard. I had a long history with him and there was no fixing our issues. In fact, he wouldn't even admit that they were marital issues...he simply said it was my fault.

I am not a demanding, emotionally-charged woman. I expected no gifts (and never got any), no special treatment. I handled the house, the cooking, I worked full-time and took the lion's share of child rearing because he believed his job was more important than mine (even when I made more money than he did). 

There was zero affection in our marriage but my husband felt that he needed periodic sex and that I should supply it whether I liked it or not...he actually said it was my "duty." I'm a very sexual person but it was such a turn off that sex became just another chore and I started hating it. So it got to the point where he'd only agree to do something for me...ie, get me a coffee.. if I agreed to have sex with him. I finally told him that I never wanted him to do another thing for me again and to never ask me for sex again. I learned how to do everything on my own. I fixed my own car, installed a water heater, fixed stuff that broke in the house, studied finances and investing, etc. I didn't need him for a damn thing and I made sure I learned how to do it on my own.

We began living very separately. We already had separate bedroom suites but he started separating out his and my youngest daughter's laundry and he'd leave mine and our oldest daughter's for me to do. Because our oldest tended to be more loyal to me, he wrote her off and started having arguments with her constantly. He started keeping food in his room. He wouldn't do anything to help maintain any part of the house except his own bedroom and bathroom. It just got wierd.

The final straw was a block party we went to where he got very drunk and started insulting me in public. This had happened before, so I generally wouldn't go anywhere with him..but he begged me and promised that he'd behave. So I went and he's screaming across the patio about how he only married me because I was pregnant, obnoxiously telling the hostess to pack him food to go, etc. Then he called me the N word about 12 times (I'm interracial). I was mortified for my poor neighbors because they were embarrassed for me and were giving me those sympathy looks all night and coming over to hug me to comfort me....ridiculous...so I told him we were leaving early. I ended up having to half drag him home and during the trip, he tried to give me a couple hundred bucks to give him a bj when we got home. The next day, he remembered none of it. When I told him what happened because he couldn't find his 200 bucks (it was in a container of stuffed tomatoes in the fridge cause I was trying to carry him and all the tupperware he made the hostess pack up), he claimed that it never happened and that I was being a *****, as per usual. 

I had had enough. I told him either we went to counselling or I was done. And his response to me (this is verbatim) was that "I was the one with the problem and I needed to fix it."

So I did. I divorced him and married a way better guy. Problem fixed.

My marriage was not solvable and not because I did not try or because I was not committed. Its because some marriages are not fixable and people NEED to get divorced. There are a lot of spouses with serious personality disorders that are impossible to stay married to without extreme misery.

I'm quite sure that I'm not re-writing history of my past marriage. I have a very, very good memory and I am not the emotional, irrational type. In fact looking back, I was TOO committed and TOO loyal. I should have left far sooner. I cannot even imagine these days how I tolerated what I did.

I'm remarried today and I have a wonderful, amazing husband who is always on my side and always supportive. He's the right person for me and that's what makes a successful marriage.

I really hate when people simplify divorces into a lack of commitment...its complete, utter bullcrap. There are some really bad marriages out there and those people should get divorced without being called disloyal. You cannot make a marriage work unless BOTH people are trying to make the relationship successful.

Sorry for the long post...


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Of course it's "easier" to leave. Fixing a truly bad marriage is next to impossible, but leaving it is not. The times when it's not easier to leave are times when the marriage is pretty good, so people tend to fix it instead of leaving.


Its not always easy to leave at all.

If you have an amicable divorce, its fairly simple but that doesn't happen very often.

I went through a 6 year divorce and custody battle that seemed like it was never going to end. It cost me about 45k in fees alone...not including the 7k in psych evaluations, etc. I dealt with constant legal letters (threats) being sent to my house, hostile emails, etc, etc. 

I have a couple friends going through some brutal divorces right now and it can be a very tough time.

It was totally worth every penny and everything I went through but I would never describe divorce as "easy." It was just easier than spending one more miserable day around my ex.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

EnigmaGirl said:


> lmao. I was married for 21 years to my 1st husband...I didn't just take off because it was hard. I had a long history with him and there was no fixing our issues. In fact, he wouldn't even admit that they were marital issues...he simply said it was my fault.
> 
> I am not a demanding, emotionally-charged woman. I expected no gifts (and never got any), no special treatment. I handled the house, the cooking, I worked full-time and took the lion's share of child rearing because he believed his job was more important than mine (even when I made more money than he did).
> 
> ...


Your divorce would not be considered frivolous. Glad you got out of it and are in a good relationship now.

Just as you say there are people in bad relationships that should get out, there are also people that have left relationships where they should have stayed and worked it out. I was never saying you were one of these people. Just that it does happen.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> I disagree. If I was married to someone that cared more about vacations and jewelry than me, then I would consider that a bad marriage. That divorce would not be frivolous.


You're looking at this from the opposite perspective. You, as the provider, would be divorcing them because they care more about these things than they do you. As apposed to you, as the provider, being divorced by them because they care more about those things than they do you. I think there is a difference


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> Your divorce would not be considered frivolous. Glad you got out of it and are in a good relationship now.
> 
> Just as you say there are people in bad relationships that should get out, there are also people that have left relationships where they should have stayed and worked it out. I was never saying you were one of these people. Just that it does happen.


I think the problem is that what is frivolous is subjective. Of course when dealing with extremes we can all agree it's frivolous but when it's somewhere in the middle who decides? 

I think this is one of the reasons for no fault, the other being that allowing fault will be very abused if people think it benefits them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

SadSamIAm said:


> I agree and it is good that women can now get out of bad marriages easier.
> 
> But I stand by my point that because it is easier, marriages fail more often not just because they are 'bad'. People walk away when it gets tough because it is easier for them to leave. They talk about how 'bad' the marriage was. They re-write history to make the marriage look so 'bad' when there was actually plenty of good. That hard work and communication and loyalty often could of been a better choice.


What you're talking about is highly subjective. Marriages have two parties involved and each of has their own perspective that you don't get to attribute to rewriting simply because you don't think it was that bad.

My ex thought our marriage was fine because it worked for him, but it didn't work for me. I'm sure he'd tell you it wasn't that bad because for him it wasn't. 

Lots of wives in sexless marriages well tell you the marriage wasn't that bad but to the poor guy that hasn't had sex in years it might be very bad. Is he rewriting if he leaves? What does it matter, the marriage wasn't working for him. 

I'd just ask that one not be a d0uchebag about it, like don't cheat or otherwise be an arse.

You're never going to very a perfect answer, but for me I'd never want to force someone that doesn't want me around.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I suppose what you are suggesting here is that women in the past could always be prostitutes.
> 
> WTH???


I took it as the only jobs available for anyone were dangerous physical jobs. 

Apparently nobody did anything else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

Decimated said:


> You're looking at this from the opposite perspective. You, as the provider, would be divorcing them because they care more about these things than they do you. As apposed to you, as the provider, being divorced by them because they care more about those things than they do you. I think there is a difference


I don't get this.

It's not okay to leave if you know you don't care about your spouse enough, but it's okay to leave if you know your spouse doesn't care about you enough?

Both perspectives are part of the same marriage. If the person who knows they won't be happy leaves, then their spouse doesn't have to suffer through that unhappiness until they can't take it anymore.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Decimated said:


> I disagree with the first line.
> Humans have vastly superior brains that are capable of reason, empathy and complex choices. We are not just another animal. It's not that we, as a species, are not naturally suited towards monogamy, it's that some of us are choosing not to be. If we want to be monogamous we can be monogamous. I don't view marriage as a form of social control. Maybe the folks that do are more likely to cheat and divorce. Marriage served a very important role in our ancestors society. Generations ago, a husband and wife needed each other just to survive and raise their children. We each had roles with in the relationship to ensure that success. In our current society, there are plenty of safety nets to ensure our survival without the need to rely on the marital partner. because of this, marriages are more disposable.
> 
> I totally agree with the second part.
> Well educated people probably divorce and cheat at a lesser rate. The choice of partners, long term planning, and general focus on goals in life, family and careers, would definitely increase the likelihood that the couple would remain monogamous and be working toward a common goal. This same mindset would also be more adverse to making irrational/emotional decisions because of the potential loss of what they've collectively sought to achieve. This type of person probably would naturally avoid situations where their priorities could be potentially at risk.


Was that satire?

humans very much still have brain v1.0 and hormones v1.0
and the more education a woman has the higher statistically probably that she will cheat (although these days probably more likely to go for an honest divorce)


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> I took it as the only jobs available for anyone were dangerous physical jobs.
> 
> Apparently nobody did anything else.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Also terribly paid jobs, but that was the norm for most of the working and lower classes (ie those without the right birth and culture and contacts...which the culture and contacts meant women had to have well known fathers to get into university, medicine, tutoring, even nursing)

Theatre was an option but was pretty much synonymous with prostitution. As was hostelry options.
But there were nursing, maid, tea rooms, washing, some secretarily/transcription work, computing, low end factory jobs. Whole bunch of them.

Don't get me wrong -they absolutely *sucked*- but that's not the point, the point was made that there were *no* other options. This is a direct _mistruth_ there were options, but the people looking back want to claim _no_ options because then it makes it look like they didn't have a choice, and were powerless to choose - thus shift the blame off them. No, dolly did not make the choice, they did.

It was only once they admitted to the choices, that they had the power to speak up. Often the WORST offenders of oppression and victimisation, were the "victims" who refused to admit to the choices and then took their frustration and anger and weakness out on others. How dare a woman divorce and work shotty 14hr days all week, and have her children in poverty; when the abuse faithful mother wouldn't have the guts to walk away from the abuse.
We see similar in modern police forces, men who are corrupt or afraid of corruption, joining in to condemn those brave enough to break the blue bro code. such weakness is even more condemnable that the initial abusers.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Just as you say there are people in bad relationships that should get out, there are also people that have left relationships where they should have stayed and worked it out. I was never saying you were one of these people. Just that it does happen


I think the only reason divorce statistics are going up is because you can get divorced and there's less stigma attached to it. Its a symptom of modern times but not in a bad way. People don't have to stay stuck in terrible marriages.

Are there some people that leave without trying...maybe, but those people never should have been married in the first place anyway.


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Are there some people that leave without trying...maybe, but those people never should have been married in the first place anyway.


I agree. I don't think people who love each other and are happy together leave that easily. You don't just wake up one day and decide to leave the love of your life, just because they don't cook or pick up their mess. There's usually a disconnect between them for a while before anyone leaves. It might not look that way from the outside, but only because you don't know everything they deal with as a couple.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

EnigmaGirl said:


> I think the only reason divorce statistics are going up is because you can get divorced and there's less stigma attached to it. Its a symptom of modern times but not in a bad way. People don't have to stay stuck in terrible marriages.
> 
> Are there some people that leave without trying...maybe, but those people never should have been married in the first place anyway.


It is very hard to quantify what 'trying' is. 

My marriage was pretty rocky for 5 years or so when the kids were going through being teenagers. Very little sexual intimacy. Lots of arguments about raising kids. 

I am sure many would feel I would have been justified in leaving after putting up with 6 months of it. Others might have figured 2 years was enough. 

We made it though the five years and the last year or so our marriage has been great. Not perfect. Still have our moments, but overall it is great. 

I could have left. Maybe I would have been with someone better, but maybe not. I am sure the first 5 years or so with someone knew would be pretty exciting. Maybe the new relationship would be great forever. Because kids are raised. Careers are mature. Less stressful things to deal with.

I am glad I stayed with my wife. I love her and I know she loves me. We both love our three kids and love the times when our entire family is together. The kids are young adults now with partners and everyone gets along great. They loving going on holidays with us (because we pay for most everything) and we have a great time when together.

If I was to end up with someone knew, they would probably have some baggage. Been married before. Kids with someone else. An Ex. I would be worried that the new person was just with me for money. I know these issues can be dealt with. Just glad I don't have to.

Did I try too hard and put up with too much? 

Did someone else give up too soon?

I think the only people that know those answers are the people in the middle of it.

My point that started this discussion was that I have a couple of friends that have told me that they wished they had worked harder on their first marriage. That their second marriages really aren't any better.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Decimated said:
> 
> 
> > I disagree with the first line.
> ...


What's your definition of satire?

Intellect and the ability to reason is what separates us from the rest of the animals. We're not just driven by instinct. 

I disagree with your second response. The studies I've seen indicate that the lower the education level, the more likely they are to cheat


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

I was talking to my husband about this thread and we just kind of mentally went back in time to all the weddings we've been too since we've been together, close friends and family, 33 years. We figured that it was about 50/50, still together/divorced. Four of the divorced were due to infidelity (that we know of), 2 men, 2 women cheating.

When we widened the circle and looked at general friends, family, acquaintances and coworkers, marriages and living together situations, that had infidelity issues, it was almost all men that were the cheaters. Like 20 men and 3 women including the 2 mentioned above. That 20 includes both of our dads cheating on our moms.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Decimated said:


> What's your definition of satire?
> 
> Intellect and the ability to reason is what separates us from the rest of the animals. We're not just driven by instinct.
> 
> I disagree with your second response. The studies I've seen indicate that the lower the education level, the more likely they are to cheat


And the studies I've seen showed the opposite.
Two other trends noticed was possible connection between income level and cheating, with the higher income people tending to cheat more. This also tied in with the opportunities and lack of stigma involved, also hours worked. So cases where both partners had income/work, and that work had value in line with training, and brought partners into people with influence and means, and people could afford rooms & travel & parties, then cheating was more common.

That there was definate correlation between education and income level (not so much with business owners, which tended to be outliers, in significance and in value). The trends definitely linked higher education with salary and job opportunities.

What was clear that more low income men cheated than low income women, and that more higher education women cheated than men. Conclusions drawn were that highly educated women saw they had more opportunities, and could seek more benefit independently than poorer less educated women, and the the more educated women were more routinely used to getting things that they wanted regardless of consequences (which tended to fall on other people).
The higher educated men tended to have more to lose, and more devoted to their careers, and more of their affairs were with coworkers (who were often well paid and educated).
Lower income men had less to lose, were more short term goal driven, less concerned about outcomes as they often considered that what they had was easier to replace, and often had multiple affairs often simultaneously. Likewise the women they had affairs with tended to have many affairs and very unstable relationships.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

soccermom2three said:


> I was talking to my husband about this thread and we just kind of mentally went back in time to all the weddings we've been too since we've been together, close friends and family, 33 years. We figured that it was about 50/50, still together/divorced. Four of the divorced were due to infidelity (that we know of), 2 men, 2 women cheating.
> 
> When we widened the circle and looked at general friends, family, acquaintances and coworkers, marriages and living together situations, that had infidelity issues, it was almost all men that were the cheaters. Like 20 men and 3 women including the 2 mentioned above. That 20 includes both of our dads cheating on our moms.


Not surprising for low and middle income relationships the marriage provides far far more benefit to the mother (shelter, support, contributing partner, social status), than it does to her husband (gives up freedom of partners, own time, and when baby comes along frequently most chances of sexual and emotional support, and free time (there's always something she wants fixed or shifted))


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Not surprising for low and middle income relationships the marriage provides far far more benefit to the mother (shelter, support, contributing partner, social status), than it does to her husband (gives up freedom of partners, own time, and when baby comes along frequently most chances of sexual and emotional support, and free time (there's always something she wants fixed or shifted))



What are you talking about?


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

> > Originally Posted by spotthedeaddog View Post
> > Not surprising for low and middle income relationships the marriage provides far far more benefit to the mother (shelter, support, contributing partner, social status), than it does to her husband (gives up freedom of partners, own time, and when baby comes along frequently most chances of sexual and emotional support, and free time (there's always something she wants fixed or shifted))
> 
> 
> What are you talking about?


Sorry the "multi" level quote thing doesn't seem to work on Chrome/my computer.

I was referring to the number of men cheating vs women.
Its far more advantageous for the women to be in a marriage, and far more beneficial for men not to get divorced once stuck in a marriage. for example what does he get out of it? support, no. emotional connection, no. personal interests and space, no. a beautiful mate (who doesn't want to talk/enjoy him), perhaps. 
Sex?? apparently not (or not enough or quality).
Yet he is expected to provide a lot and communicate anything of value, and provide veto rights to the other person. There is very little of worth in a marriage, especially a failing marriage for a man. These days there's not even the reassurance of stability, as his partner can just up and leave and take at least half of everything any moment she decides to....


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The biggest predictor of a marriage not ending in divorce is for the woman to be over 25 and have at least a bachelor degree. The higher the education, the lower the divorce rate. 

I disagree that better education women cheat more...lower income, lower educated women cheat a lot more than well educated women. And men cheat more, with more partners than married women do. Men tend to cheat with younger, unmarried women more than with married women.

From the link below............................


There is one US study on infidelity that appears to have some reliable results and, rather usefully, can help us answer our question about the relationship between income and cheating. While other studies that find high rates of cheating often include emotional infidelity (so sitting at your desk wondering what your co-worker looks like naked is going to put you on the cheaters list) this one sticks to a definition of sexual relations that even Bill Clinton would be comfortable with. They find that 8% of men admit to having an extramarital affair in the past twelve months compared to 3.5% of women. If you included people who are cohabitating as well as married, the number goes up to 34% for men and 23% for women. Men who cheat, cheat more; cheating men are twice as likely as cheating women to have had sex with two or more partners. Men tend to cheat with women who are younger (no news there) and women tend to cheat with men who are better educated. Very young women (say less than 26 years old) cheat more than women of any other age and while men also cheat more when they are young, the relationship between age and infidelity isn’t nearly as pronounced for men as it is for women.

Do rich men cheat more than poor men? There is no evidence to suggest that they do. In fact, after controlling for a variety of different effects, it seems there is very little connection between income and cheating in men. Interestingly, though, the real effect of income on cheating is with women; poor women are significantly more likely to cheat than wealthier women.

*So who are the cheaters? Men are, but not one particular type of man.* *Women are too, but predominantly women who are young and poor.* One possible explanation for this behavior of women is that they are using cheating as a way to shop for a better long-term partner. Another explanation, which is popular with evolutionary biologists, is that they are shopping for better genes for their children. This makes sense if they can do better in the market for sperm than they can in the market for marriage. It could also just be that the wives of poor men have less to lose if they are caught being unfaithful.Speaking of sperm, Robin Baker in his book "Sperm Wars: The Science of Sex" (which is about as close as you can get to finding academic porn) says that while 10% of all men (regardless of income) are raising children who are not their own, that number goes up to 30% for men who are in the bottom of the income distribution and down to 2% for men who are in the top. If you think that cheating imposes hardship on families, particularly on children, then you have to agree that taking a look at this particular group of cheaters has to be worth while.

Income and Infidelity | Big Think


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

More ....

*Husbands of female breadwinners most at risk for cheating, says study*

And now, the findings of a new study about infidelity will probably give these breadwinners more cause for concern.

It's tough to know precisely how many people cheat in their marriages, because many might not admit it in surveys, but researchers estimate that between 20% to 25% of married men and between 10% and 15% of married women have engaged in an extramarital relationship.

This new study, showcased in the June issue of the American Sociological Review, found that men who are 100% economically dependent on their spouses were most at risk for cheating, three times more at risk than women married to male breadwinners. 

While, on average, women who are completely financially dependent on their husbands face about a 5% chance that they will stray, there is about a 15% chance that a man married to a female breadwinner will cheat, the study concluded. 

.....

Men whose wives are fully economically dependent on them face about a 4% chance that they will cheat: higher than the risk of cheating for a female breadwinner but dramatically lower than the 15% chance of cheating for men who are economically dependent on their wives, said Munsch. 
Study: Men with breadwinning wives more likely to cheat - CNN.com


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## NoSizeQueen (Sep 9, 2015)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Its far more advantageous for the women to be in a marriage, and far more beneficial for men not to get divorced once stuck in a marriage. for example what does he get out of it? support, no. emotional connection, no. personal interests and space, no. a beautiful mate (who doesn't want to talk/enjoy him), perhaps.
> Sex?? apparently not (or not enough or quality).
> Yet he is expected to provide a lot and communicate anything of value, and provide veto rights to the other person. There is very little of worth in a marriage, especially a failing marriage for a man. These days there's not even the reassurance of stability, as his partner can just up and leave and take at least half of everything any moment she decides to....


Your post has made me realize something...

I might be a man!! 


But seriously, this is a very narrow view of marriage. Lots of men get support and sex and maintain their interests. They just don't come on sites like TAM because they're happy and not complaining.

Lots of women (like me) DON'T get the benefits of marriage, and don't take their husbands to the cleaner when they leave. I'm honestly not sure what I would have to gain by getting married again. It's not a promise of support or stability... To me, it was a way to make it harder for me to leave when I was unhappy.


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> The biggest predictor of a marriage not ending in divorce is for the woman to be over 25 and have at least a bachelor degree. The higher the education, the lower the divorce rate.
> 
> I disagree that better education women cheat more...lower income, lower educated women cheat a lot more than well educated women. And men cheat more, with more partners than married women do. Men tend to cheat with younger, unmarried women more than with married women.[/url]


I absolutely agree. This has been my observation in life as well.

In my OP I stated that I personally knew 11 men who were cheated on by their wives and subsequently divorced. All of their XW's had no more than a high school diploma, a few with a some junior college classes sprinkled in. My XWW was the same...High School. All of the husbands had a minimum of a bachelors degree, most with a masters.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

The educational divide is interesting to me. I've seen studies that suggest a big gap in education causes issues in a marriage because one eventually looks down in the other. 

I have two bachelor's degrees and my first hb was terribly intimidated by it, so much that he had to put me down to make himself feel better. The irony was that I didn't look down on him. ....he was good at things I wasn't, like cars and mechanical stuff. Yet he liked to put me down and hold any mistakes I'd made over my head. 

My hb has a master's degree and we don't have any kind of struggles related to education. Our fields are completely different but we're both similarly accomplished, my field just pays more. That's never bothered me because hb is accomplished and not lazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> The educational divide is interesting to me. I've seen studies that suggest a big gap in education causes issues in a marriage because one eventually looks down in the other.
> 
> I have two bachelor's degrees and my first hb was terribly intimidated by it, so much that he had to put me down to make himself feel better. The irony was that I didn't look down on him. ....he was good at things I wasn't, like cars and mechanical stuff. Yet he liked to put me down and hold any mistakes I'd made over my head.
> 
> ...


I experienced the same thing in my marriage. I have two bachelor's degrees as well. My XWW was a high school grad. The difference in our education didn't bother me. I viewed this the same way that you did, she was good at some things and I was good at others. I thought it was a good balance. Early in our marriage this didn't seem to be an issue in fact, she seemed to value it. Towards the end she seemed to resent it and would find ways to belittle or discount my education. Interestingly enough, the guy she was cheating with didn't go to college either. His BS was the bread winner.

If I ever get married again, which is doubtful, I will seek someone that has a similar education level and has as much to lose as I do.


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

spotthedeaddog said:


> Sorry the "multi" level quote thing doesn't seem to work on Chrome/my computer.
> 
> I was referring to the number of men cheating vs women.
> Its far more advantageous for the women to be in a marriage, and far more beneficial for men not to get divorced once stuck in a marriage. for example what does he get out of it? support, no. emotional connection, no. personal interests and space, no. a beautiful mate (who doesn't want to talk/enjoy him), perhaps.
> ...


Or the men could just be entitled ass holes.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Decimated said:


> lifeistooshort said:
> 
> 
> > The educational divide is interesting to me. I've seen studies that suggest a big gap in education causes issues in a marriage because one eventually looks down in the other.
> ...


Interesting… I had a sort of opposite experience in my first marriage.
When we met we were both in college. He was working on an MS in electrical Engineering. I had just returned to college to finish my BS in Computer Science after a stint in the US Army. 
Things were fine. We married a few years later after we had both finished our degrees and had good solid jobs. Then in the second year of our marriage he just quit his job without tell me he intended to do it and announced that he was going to medical school. It turned out that all the while he had been preparing for and taking the MCats without saying a word to be about it.

Once he was in medical school he changed. The longer he was in, the more arrogant he became. This went on through medical school and then residency. I know it was because the closer he got to finishing, the worse he got. I did read his diary at one point because I was trying to figure out what was going on. It was filled with writing about how he was superior to me and did not know how he could take being married to a lowly software engineer (even though it’s only because of that he was able to go to medical school.. my income as a lowly software engineer support us and our son as well and paid for his tuition, books, etc.) By the time his residency was ending, he got to a point that he would make remarks. For example, one day I went up to him to talk to him and put my hand on him. I mean gently put my hand on his arm as people do when they talk. He yelled at me to get my hand off him and said “Who the hell do you think you are, touching me? Do you realize who I am?” Yes he grew into a real charmer… 

From what I have read, it is very common (like 90%) for a person who goes on to get a higher degree than their spouse after marriage to feel after they obtain the degree that they are superior to their spouse and they divorce. I wish I had known that in my marriage. I would have insisted that he use student loans and grants to pay for his medical school. That way he could have taken the debt with him and I would have saved my money.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> More ....
> 
> *Husbands of female breadwinners most at risk for cheating, says study*
> 
> ...


That is so badly written that I actually can't tell what they are saying. 

By "at risk for cheating", do they mean that they will cheat, or that their partners will cheat? I would assume from the plain meaning of "at risk" that they mean the latter, but apparently they mean the former.


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

Women thrive on validation, if they aren't getting validated at home they will look elsewhere.

Men typically don't care, we put minimal effort into attracting attention from the opposite sex. However many a man will put in much effort to appear better off than their other male cohorts.

So what happens when a male body builder isn't getting the attention he feels he deserves? He works harder.

Women, look elsewhere.

I don't think this is un-natural at all, its evolutionary psychology. What makes it more prevailing in today's society is: social media, more women entering male dominated fields, no fault divorce, and fewer consequences.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

technovelist said:


> That is so badly written that I actually can't tell what they are saying.
> 
> By "at risk for cheating", do they mean that they will cheat, or that their partners will cheat? I would assume from the plain meaning of "at risk" that they mean the latter, but apparently they mean the former.


Apparently you have reading comprehension problems. Oh well.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

gouge_away said:


> Women thrive on validation, if they aren't getting validated at home they will look elsewhere.
> 
> Men typically don't care, we put minimal effort into attracting attention from the opposite sex. However many a man will put in much effort to appear better off than their other male cohorts.
> 
> ...


With your theories, what explains the fact that men look elsewhere more than women do?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Apparently you have reading comprehension problems. Oh well.


No, they have writing clarity problems.

BTW, I've done copy editing for a major publisher and am a published technical author myself, so I do know something about writing...


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> Interesting… I had a sort of opposite experience in my first marriage.
> When we met we were both in college. He was working on an MS in electrical Engineering. I had just returned to college to finish my BS in Computer Science after a stint in the US Army.
> Things were fine. We married a few years later after we had both finished our degrees and had good solid jobs. Then in the second year of our marriage he just quit his job without tell me he intended to do it and announced that he was going to medical school. It turned out that all the while he had been preparing for and taking the MCats without saying a word to be about it.
> 
> ...


OMG, Ele, that comment reminds me of an ex-fiancee of mine from years back. He'd just graduated medical school and told me: "I wish you loved me for _what _I am, rather than _who_ I am. I would love you to lick my boots the way my patients do!" Think this must be a medical thing? lol


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## gouge_away (Apr 7, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> With your theories, what explains the fact that men look elsewhere more than women do?


More men are validating than women are withholding.


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