# Am I ruining my young child by letting her 'win' once in a while?



## mentallydrained

My daughter is 7. She is actually very mature for her age due to being around adults a lot! She is only child and since all of our acquantencies are older, I do believe that has set some of her maturity. And too much I might add.

Anyway....over last few years I have struggled with how she is a very sore loser. To point she cheats to win, and blantely. I am dumfounded at why she is like this...well until last night! I bought her a wii for Christmas. She loves it! However, starting out she would get very mad and actually cry that she could not win the games or figure them out immediately. I tried explaining best I could that it takes time, she's young and the more she plays the better she will get. She ask why I'm good at it since I've never played. Well....it's not that I'm good at it, I just have a little more cordination and concept of game. At age 7, that's a tough one to explain.

Well, my H states some of her problem is that when I would play cards or board games with her, I would let her win once in a while and that now she expects to win. I did not let this happen all the time, but yes, once in a while I would. She's 7!! Is that really horrible? Again, not always but yes I did once in a while.

Now, with the wii....while her dad and I were playing the Mario Bros, she likes to watch us as she has hard time understanding concept of what to do. So, we were playing one that we both have to work together at to get through the level. Funny how during this game, I was completely and utterly shocked at how he plays the game the same as he goes through life and our marriage! Always had to be ahead of me, had to get all coins and all powers that you find. Wanted to have the highest score! Mind you, if anyone knows that game, when two are playing, the powers double so each get one. Oh no, he had to get both!

It got to point, like I do my marriage, I just went through the motions. We would even run out of time as he would go back over an over to get coins for most points, or even wait for powers to appear sometimes. I explained on one level he needed to allow me a power in order to work with him or we would not finish the game. He finally said "Oh, well I thought I was leading the way for you?" It was such an eye opener! He made comment how greedy he was and I would say 'your not kidding'! Then one game we must have played for almost 2 HRS as he was determined to beat it! Said he cant stand to lose and likes the challenge. Hmmmm....interesting. That's EXACTLY how our 7yr old is!

I told him I know now where our daughter get's it and I do not believe it's from me letting her win once in a while! Playing this game with him was so heartbreaking and honestly, I just could not believe how he was acting. Another example, our 7yr old in her 2nd day of bowling got an unbelievable score. Talking 200's. She was on top of the world! I told her that it would be a long time before someone would probably beat that and she was so proud and exicted! Well...she now is upset with me as I lied to her as someone did beat her score. Yes...you got it! He played to try and get a high score as the few times he played he didn't like how he wasn't doing well. It's was like in his mind..."how can I let a y yr old beat me?" 

I'm just so amazed and flabergasted at the competitiveness with him. Against a 7yr old? Really? And that a game you are to work as a TEAM on....you still need that power of having it all your way? It truly is like our life. At one point I told him it's not all about getting the coins etc. He replied with "well look at my score compared to yours" I said yes, but it's not about score or getting most coins for me. It's about getting through the level the best way. No comment...just a snicker.

Sorry got off track. Guess this whole game thing has affected me in more ways then feeling like I'm being wrong by my daughter in letting her win once in a while. Maybe since my confidence is so down, I see how it boost hers and she gets so excited I want her to enjoy that feeling. Once you've lost it, it's a struggle getting back and you mentally get yourself to believe you cannot do any better. A reflection I have on self that I so much do not want her to pick up.

As for H....once again, back into the realm of power, competitiveness, and control. Some say internet/facebook is means and outlet of destroying marriages....well....for me...it's the wii!!! Has done nothing but open my eyes wider on the control and manipulation that I and my daughter have been living under and will never win against. 2011....I pray for strength to get my confidence and controll back of my own personal happiness so I may teach my daughter that being happy and losing...can still put a sparkle in your eye, allow you to keep your head up and feel just as good as wining. Such a sad place right now. Sorry everyone.


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## WhereAmI

I don't think you're doing anything wrong when you let your child win on occasion. Your husband's constant need to win is doing more damage, IMO. 

My eight year old son is considered gifted. His school has a wonderful program and on occasion they'll have a speaker come in. I hate going to these things. Often times it seems like a brag-fest and it drives me up a wall. The number of times one person can say "gifted" is astounding!

One of the recent topics was on parenting the gifted child. My husband attended because of my distaste for the people at these events. The information he came home with has been extremely helpful, though. Our big struggle at the moment is my son's inability to be wrong. It's always some outside influence that causes him to make a mistake. 

I wonder if you're not mistaking your daughter being gifted for being mature? Her emotions are probably on par with children her age, but she's highly intelligent. She is acting her age when she's cheating. It's your job to show her that it's unacceptable. With my son it was as simple as saying, "I know that you cheated. I'd love to play with you again when you're ready to be fair." It had to happen quite a few times before his cheating stopped, but it worked. Just stay calm so the focus remains on her cheating.


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## greeneyeddolphin

Letting her win, every now and then, when she's first learning to play a game, is ok. It will help her to get the concept better. But...at 7, she's old enough to understand the rules. Cheating needs to be unacceptable. My 7 yr old will pretend he'll cheat, and I'll flat out tell him that I will not play with a cheater. He knows that cheating is unacceptable to me, and that if he does it, I won't play with him anymore. You need to make that clear to her. 

You also need to not let her win anymore once she understands the rules, concept, etc of the game. She either wins fair and square through playing the game well, or she loses and learns what she could do differently to win the next time. She'll learn better from true wins than from gift wins. My 7 yr old can beat me, and his grandparents at chess, and he only started playing 3 or 4 days before Christmas. We would let him win a little bit in the beginning, but after the first couple of games, once we knew he'd already figured out the rules, the point, and the moves, we played against him the way we'd play against each other. 

I also think it's important, when she does lose, or when she's trying to understand how to play the game, that you explain to her that it takes time to learn, and it takes practice to get really good at it. When she loses, if you can see what she did that led to her losing, perhaps try to explain it to her, or show her, and then show her what she could have done differently that *might* have led to a different outcome, always making clear that even changing that move might not have changed the outcome. 

I'm not sure how you can neutralize that competitiveness and drive to be in control that she sees in her father. You can explain to her that it's not the way to be, but I don't know that that's really a good idea. Aside from essentially telling her her dad's a bad guy for that, it's also likely to cause even more friction between you and him if he finds out, which he surely will.


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## mentallydrained

WhereAmI said:


> It's your job to show her that it's unacceptable. With my son it was as simple as saying, "I know that you cheated. I'd love to play with you again when you're ready to be fair." It had to happen quite a few times before his cheating stopped, but it worked. Just stay calm so the focus remains on her cheating.


Thank you! I do explain to her cheating is wrong. I even try to explain, in a nice way, that kids at school and her friends will end up not wanting to play with her if she continues to cheat.

I like how you phrased that to your son. I will have to phrase that same way. (if you don't mind


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## mentallydrained

atruckersgirl said:


> Letting her win, every now and then, when she's first learning to play a game, is ok. It will help her to get the concept better. But...at 7, she's old enough to understand the rules. Cheating needs to be unacceptable. My 7 yr old will pretend he'll cheat, and I'll flat out tell him that I will not play with a cheater. He knows that cheating is unacceptable to me, and that if he does it, I won't play with him anymore. You need to make that clear to her.
> 
> You also need to not let her win anymore once she understands the rules, concept, etc of the game. She either wins fair and square through playing the game well, or she loses and learns what she could do differently to win the next time. She'll learn better from true wins than from gift wins. My 7 yr old can beat me, and his grandparents at chess, and he only started playing 3 or 4 days before Christmas. We would let him win a little bit in the beginning, but after the first couple of games, once we knew he'd already figured out the rules, the point, and the moves, we played against him the way we'd play against each other.
> 
> I also think it's important, when she does lose, or when she's trying to understand how to play the game, that you explain to her that it takes time to learn, and it takes practice to get really good at it. When she loses, if you can see what she did that led to her losing, perhaps try to explain it to her, or show her, and then show her what she could have done differently that *might* have led to a different outcome, always making clear that even changing that move might not have changed the outcome.
> 
> I'm not sure how you can neutralize that competitiveness and drive to be in control that she sees in her father. You can explain to her that it's not the way to be, but I don't know that that's really a good idea. Aside from essentially telling her her dad's a bad guy for that, it's also likely to cause even more friction between you and him if he finds out, which he surely will.


I do let her know it's unacceptable. And agree and do not give her 'free wins' on games or things she undertands and knows. 

It is a struggle when she is learning something new in trying to help her. Unfortunately, this goes back, I believe, the emotional strain of my H in a lot of past teasing and antagonizing. I tried walking her through and showing her how to use things on the wii and she just gets made as if you are scolding her verses helping. Again....long story in things from past and now I'm trying to correct them and it's not an easy task. I've been to blame in part as she got some of the blunt of my yelling due to stress between H and I. Yet, I've taken steps to correct by counseling and medicaiton to help 'ease' my anxiety and outburst. Over last 2 months I can say she's not endured that from me and I'm proud of self for it. Can say same for H.

Thanks for the tips though! Guess I'm always second guessing self once H makes comment of how I handle or do things. I start to feel all blame for her self esteem in that she feels she can do nothing right if she isn't able to do it right first time. Breaks my heart to see her at such young age get so upset over not being perfect and just being a kid. Not her fault, which is an even sader topic.


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## Mom6547

emotionalwreck said:


> Well, my H states some of her problem is that when I would play cards or board games with her, I would let her win once in a while and that now she expects to win.


I agree with your husband that this is a really big mistake.


> It got to point, like I do my marriage, I just went through the motions. We would even run out of time as he would go back over an over to get coins for most points, or even wait for powers to appear sometimes. I explained on one level he needed to allow me a power in order to work with him or we would not finish the game. He finally said "Oh, well I thought I was leading the way for you?" It was such an eye opener! He made comment how greedy he was and I would say 'your not kidding'! Then one game we must have played for almost 2 HRS as he was determined to beat it! Said he cant stand to lose and likes the challenge. Hmmmm....interesting. That's EXACTLY how our 7yr old is!


It sounds like 
- you and he have different goals when playing the game; you easy going to have fun, him to be competitive.
- it doesn't sound even a little bit like what your 7yo is doing. 

If he is sincerely about competition and challenge, then he would not cheat to win. She sounds like she is confused about the role of winning and challenge. There is nothing WRONG with being competitive (though I would not choose to play Super Mario Bros or anything else with him since that is not my cup of tea) there IS something wrong with cheating and being a sore loser. 

In my opinion, the best thing to do to teach your daughter about winning and losing is to *start playing games at her developmental level*. If she cannot figure out Super Mario Bros then play tennis or whatever. Find something that she can do to start at a level that is acceptable to her goals. Where she will win often but also lose sometimes but get better over time. You say she is 7. My 7yo likes wii bowling. But mostly likes board games. Sorry, Trouble, Uno, Ratatat Cat...




> I told him I know now where our daughter get's it and I do not believe it's from me letting her win once in a while!


My guess it is neither of those two things. But what do you hope to achieve by letting her win? Wouldn't it be better to help her achieve actual and real success through playing games she CAN win? The downside to letting her win is winning is not the goal. Achieving and feeling proud of one's achievement should be the goal.




> Playing this game with him was so heartbreaking and honestly, I just could not believe how he was acting. Another example, our 7yr old in her 2nd day of bowling got an unbelievable score. Talking 200's. She was on top of the world! I told her that it would be a long time before someone would probably beat that and she was so proud and exicted! Well...she now is upset with me as I lied to her as someone did beat her score.


Yah thus the downfall with artificially propping her up with comparison. She can be proud of HER accomplishment without getting too bent about someone else's score. It is still better than HER last score.



> Yes...you got it! He played to try and get a high score as the few times he played he didn't like how he wasn't doing well. It's was like in his mind..."how can I let a y yr old beat me?"


If he is a competitive guy, it might be best to get him to find someone else to be competitive with. Being competitive with your 7yo daughter is a bad move.



> As for H....once again, back into the realm of power, competitiveness, and control. Some say internet/facebook is means and outlet of destroying marriages....well....for me...it's the wii!!! Has done nothing but open my eyes wider on the control and manipulation that I and my daughter have been living under and will never win against.


Well I don't know your whole story. But it seems to me that the competitiveness is not necessarily this big awful character flaw, but a personality difference. The best way to deal with a person who is too competitive for your liking... don't play! As to any other areas of your life, I cannot speak.


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## mentallydrained

> In my opinion, the best thing to do to teach your daughter about winning and losing is to *start playing games at her developmental level*. If she cannot figure out Super Mario Bros then play tennis or whatever. Find something that she can do to start at a level that is acceptable to her goals. Where she will win often but also lose sometimes but get better over time. You say she is 7. My 7yo likes wii bowling. But mostly likes board games. Sorry, Trouble, Uno, Ratatat Cat...


I agree, we need to play more games more appropriate for her age. Also, I didn't make habit of letting her win. I did do it until she understood the games etc. And I do speak to her about cheating and have explained to her that I have let her win and that is was wrong for me to do so as I have allowed her to think she has to win all the time. 



> But what do you hope to achieve by letting her win? Wouldn't it be better to help her achieve actual and real success through playing games she CAN win?


 I guess I thought I was helping her not feel 'bad' or that she cannot do anything right as she has made the comment numerous times due to expectations from her H. Made her stand outside the car at Bob Evens one day while she was having a tantrum over what not (can't remember) while he made me and he stay inside car thinking humiliation would teach her a lesson at age 4. The dad who made her sit on potty training chair at age 2 1/2 while she screamed top of her lungs, him thinking it was only way. Same dad who yelled at her, scoulded her, and threatened her that she would wash her own undies out and so forth if she keeps having #2 accidents coming home from school at age 6. Same dad who yelled at her when she was wanting to help with the shake-n-bake chicken and while shaking got some of the mix on floor and he yelled while she in turn kept apologizing profusly she didn't do it on purpose. Same dad who haunted her by teasing her with camera on day of her b-day party when she was crying chasing her around the room saying he was going to take her picture so her friends could see what a cry baby she is.

So I guess I have over compensated in thinking I was doing right by letting her 'feel' she can do something right in winning once in a while. Again, not all the time and actually not even as much anymore now that she is a little older and understanding more. I guess it wasn't/isn't right I have done that. She obviously has overcome all the things above, and I haven't. 



> Well I don't know your whole story. But it seems to me that the competitiveness is not necessarily this big awful character flaw, but a personality difference. The best way to deal with a person who is too competitive for your liking... don't play! As to any other areas of your life, I cannot speak.


 As mentioned above paragraph....I think this 'wii' is just another reflection of the things I know and need to correct. It's apparent this is more than a competitive game issue and I sometimes feel masking it is better I guess. My heart breaks for her as she fears never being good enough and she's only 7. I feel that way at 40 and have for a few years but also think that is more 'normal' than at her age. I'm just at a loss on making it all right for her at the same time, not making her feel worse at things. Guess I'm not doing so swell.

Thank you. I enjoy reading your post not just on mine but others. You get people thinking, IMO, and are able to point things out without coming across like your bashing the person. Again, IMO.


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## RandomDude

> I would let her win once in a while and that now she expects to win.





> I agree with your husband that this is a really big mistake.


=/
Man I had it easy so far, terrible twos coming up however and I bet it's going to be the start of all this...

I read through this thread but I simply don't understand how letting a 7 yr old win in a game every once in a while (and not even out of habit) contributes to such behavior.


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## mentallydrained

RandomDude said:


> =/
> Man I had it easy so far, terrible twos coming up however and I bet it's going to be the start of all this...
> 
> I read through this thread but I simply don't understand how letting a 7 yr old win in a game every once in a while (and not even out of habit) contributes to such behavior.


Contributes to HER behavior? That is what I've been made to feel in way of what is being said to me. Naturally, I feel it's the other way around. That over time, she feels to be possibly be a disappointment when it comes to games and her dad since he is such a perfectionist, competitive, etc. I prefer to use one word for him...anal. Again, not saying my tactics are always best or proper by any means. Just seems as she is aging, I'm finding our parenting skills together, are not common ground and haven't been over sevearl years past. And sadly, that is partly why he repeats he never wanted a child....the responsibility of learning, up bringing, etc. So..maybe this is my Karma for having her against his will? Even if he says's he wouldn't change it.

Start early RandomDude!! Age two is where it all begins  No matter what the hurdles or how I feel about what's been said, wouldn't trade it for the world! Kids are a true miracle.


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## RandomDude

Yeah I agree with you - I don't think you're doing anything wrong but I'm still young and inexperienced compared to others as my daughter hasn't even reached 2 yet.

I don't understand your husband's parenting style really, have you asked him why he's so competitive against a 7 yr old? 



> And sadly, that is partly why he repeats he never wanted a child....the responsibility of learning, up bringing, etc. So..maybe this is my Karma for having her against his will? Even if he says's he wouldn't change it.


I'm starting to worry about her dad for some reason =/
But that's just me...


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## greeneyeddolphin

You have to make sure she understands that she is not less just because she looses at a game. 

Also, has she ever overheard her dad say that he didn't want a child? Is there any chance she might have overheard that? If so, it might be that she does all this because she feels he doesn't love her or want her and so she has to be the best, perfect, to prove to him she's worthy of his love.


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## Mom6547

emotionalwreck said:


> I guess I thought I was helping her not feel 'bad' or that she cannot do anything right as she has made the comment numerous times due to expectations from her H.


I hear you. But artificial success is likely to backfire in the end.


> Made her stand outside the car at Bob Evens one day while she was having a tantrum over what not (can't remember) while he made me and he stay inside car thinking humiliation would teach her a lesson at age 4. The dad who made her sit on potty training chair at age 2 1/2 while she screamed top of her lungs, him thinking it was only way. Same dad who yelled at her, scoulded her, and threatened her that she would wash her own undies out and so forth if she keeps having #2 accidents coming home from school at age 6.


Drag him, kicking and screaming if needs be, to parenting classes.

Here are some book recommendations for a self study.

Amazon.com: Discipline for Life : Getting it Right with Children (9781887069069): Madelyn Swift: Books

Amazon.com: Setting Limits: How to Raise Responsible, Independent Children by Providing Clear Boundaries (Revised and Expanded Second Edition) (0086874512122): Robert J. Mackenzie: Books

Amazon.com: How to Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen So Kids Will Talk (9780380811960): Adele Faber, Elaine Mazlish: Books


Seriously, there is room for limit setting. One person's limit setting is another person's harangue though your husband seems to be reactionary and punitive rather than effective and educational.

I don't remember what your marital issues are, if any. So this is an uphill battle. But if you read those books, you might learn some limit setting skills to use on HIM. (Albiet more subtly than you would with a kid.)



> So I guess I have over compensated in thinking I was doing right by letting her 'feel' she can do something right in winning once in a while.


I agree. But I would scaffold REAL success rather than success that she will eventually possibly realize is fake, thus dashing the success out form under her.

Better yet, fix the underlying issue.



> Thank you. I enjoy reading your post not just on mine but others. You get people thinking, IMO, and are able to point things out without coming across like your bashing the person. Again, IMO.


Good luck! Sometimes life throws us doozies!


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## RandomDude

You can't help those who don't want to help themselves, dragging this man to parenting classes won't make a dent. I don't understand how he can't love his own flesh and blood however.


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## Mom6547

RandomDude said:


> =/
> Man I had it easy so far, terrible twos coming up however and I bet it's going to be the start of all this...
> 
> I read through this thread but I simply don't understand how letting a 7 yr old win in a game every once in a while (and not even out of habit) contributes to such behavior.


I did not say it lead to any specific behavior. I said it was a mistake. 

There are three areas of self esteem
- existence
- achievement
- failure or lack thereof

A self esteem that is too dependent on achievement or lack of failure is a very delicate self esteem. Every achievement and the self esteem SOARS, oft out of proportion to the achievement. And a failure is not seen as a learning opportunity but as a severe blow to self esteem.

When our first source of self esteem is from existence, I AM VALUABLE AND WORTHY BECAUSE I AM, the power of the other two areas to mess with our self esteem is lessened.

So here is this little girl whose self esteem prompts from her Dad have been almost entirely in the areas of achievement or lack of failure. What happens when she learns her achievement was FAKED? Self esteem plummets. 

That is why I suggested not playing games that are too hard for her to succeed at but scaffold actual success. I did not really mention buttressing self esteem in the area of existence because it did not come up. But that would be a useful thing to do, indeed.

if this topic interests you, the "Discipline for Life: Getting it Right with Children' is for you.


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## Mom6547

RandomDude said:


> You can't help those who don't want to help themselves, dragging this man to parenting classes won't make a dent. I don't understand how he can't love his own flesh and blood however.


What makes you say he does not love her? His discipline techniques are horribly misguided and possibly even damaging. But I would bet a dollar (that I don't have) that his motives are actually good.


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## RandomDude

That's true, this quote however made me question:



> And sadly, that is partly why he repeats he never wanted a child....the responsibility of learning, up bringing, etc. So..maybe this is my Karma for having her against his will? Even if he says's he wouldn't change it.


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## mentallydrained

RandomDude said:


> That's true, this quote however made me question:


*RandomDude & vthomeschoolmom*: Thanks for your post and for insightfull reads. I too, due to his comment of why he didn't want a child again have often felt he doesn't love her...or love her enough.

However, there are a lot of times I do see his love for her. But when it's not going how he likes or expects...look out! And sadly, in the last 7 years, she has learned that behavior in him and tries so very hard to be perfect for him. She also see's how her mom appeases him to not ruffle any more feathers. In counseling this has become a deep rooted problem for me steming way back in our marraige. Sadly, now with a child involved, it's trickled to her and I'm trying desperatly to change or correct it. Obviously, my technniques are not the proper ones though. (example letting her win). 

Yes, life throughs you doozies! It's just been so mentally exhausting, my feelings are very strong in thinking it may be more benefiical 'separate' parenting, then together. He feels she's a 'better' child when I'm not around I feel the in reverse. His actions and words are very controlling and I'm too tired to deal with them anymore. He refuses to help himself in that area. Feels it's 'my doing' due to change. Once I 'change' again to his liking, then his actions will be undercontroll.

Sorry...whole other topic that is a novel.

Thanks agian, thought for your post. It does help.


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## major misfit

I remember some of your other posts regarding your husband, and what I consider to be his abusive treatment of your daughter. Do you think you might be overcompensating for his behavior towards her? 
My now 10yo son is the youngest of 4, though there's such an age difference it's like he's an only child. He has a wicked competitive streak. He tried the cheating thing too, until we stopped playing with him until he could play without cheating. He now understands that if you win due to cheating, you haven't really won at all. Takes time to learn that one.
Your daughter is coming of the age for competitive sports. I don't know what your school offers, or at what grade, but here they start playing basketball in games in the 4th grade. Here they also offer (outside of school) baseball. At her age, she would be in coach pitch. Lots of little girls play coach pitch. I remember one little girl with a wicked throwing arm, lol. Baseball has been great for my son. He's lucky that he seems to be born with a gift to play that particular sport, and he loves it. But it fosters teamwork, and HEALTHY competition. Something she needs to learn in light of her father's issues. I'd enroll her in something as soon as I could.


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## mentallydrained

major misfit said:


> I remember some of your other posts regarding your husband, and what I consider to be his abusive treatment of your daughter. Do you think you might be overcompensating for his behavior towards her?
> My now 10yo son is the youngest of 4, though there's such an age difference it's like he's an only child. He has a wicked competitive streak. He tried the cheating thing too, until we stopped playing with him until he could play without cheating. He now understands that if you win due to cheating, you haven't really won at all. Takes time to learn that one.
> Your daughter is coming of the age for competitive sports. I don't know what your school offers, or at what grade, but here they start playing basketball in games in the 4th grade. Here they also offer (outside of school) baseball. At her age, she would be in coach pitch. Lots of little girls play coach pitch. I remember one little girl with a wicked throwing arm, lol. Baseball has been great for my son. He's lucky that he seems to be born with a gift to play that particular sport, and he loves it. But it fosters teamwork, and HEALTHY competition. Something she needs to learn in light of her father's issues. I'd enroll her in something as soon as I could.


I definately over compensate for his behavior. It's almost like a a habit now. Like I have this special 'detector' in me and can just tell by the tones in his and her voices of conversation when doing things, the switch gets flipped to "Uh oh....time to get in there and say or do something to devert the sitatuation before it gets worse". 

I agree with you on sports. We have enrolled her in basketball outside of school and it started up last week. Thing is, this program is a "every child wins" program. Not sure that's going to help. They say it's to teach showman ship. Well....it's more like to a religous program that I think they use to sports and kids to see how many families they can 'rope' into there congragation. Maybe I'm just sinical or again, resentful since H is on this major relgious kick now too. I'm just spinning in a whirl wind and have lost all hope of getting out of it.


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## Mom6547

emotionalwreck said:


> *RandomDude & vthomeschoolmom*: Thanks for your post and for insightfull reads. I too, due to his comment of why he didn't want a child again have often felt he doesn't love her...or love her enough.
> 
> However, there are a lot of times I do see his love for her. But when it's not going how he likes or expects...look out! And sadly, in the last 7 years, she has learned that behavior in him and tries so very hard to be perfect for him. She also see's how her mom appeases him to not ruffle any more feathers.


Yikes. Double whammy. 

I am not a counselor. I am always curious about what counselors say to people that we converse with on a board such as this... I fear my point of view conflicting with the counselors... But you are here, and you are asking.

In my opinion, it is time to "man up" to quote the boys. It has nothing to do with being a man. It has to do with maintaining personal boundaries, to the point of being willing to pick a fight rather than appease to keep the peace.

Your daughter needs to be safe to make mistakes. All humans do it. And she NEEDS, as a critical bit of her development, to be able to make mistakes, accept and own them, learn from them, make remedy and amends for them WITHOUT a blow to her self esteem.

I don't know your situation well enough to suggest precisely HOW to erect a personal boundary of that type since almost universally parental unified front is a good thing. But you probably could start with erecting some personal boundaries for YOU so that you daughter does not witness you appeasing him.






> In counseling this has become a deep rooted problem for me steming way back in our marraige. Sadly, now with a child involved, it's trickled to her and I'm trying desperatly to change or correct it. Obviously, my technniques are not the proper ones though. (example letting her win).


Hey now. That is a small matter compared to the bigger fish that you have to fry. I sincerely hope you are giving yourself adequate credit for the hard work you are doing rather than beating yourself up for the tiny mistakes you make along they way. Up above where I said your DD needs to feel safe to make mistakes? That goes for you too. For me. For all of us.



> Yes, life throughs you doozies! It's just been so mentally exhausting, my feelings are very strong in thinking it may be more benefiical 'separate' parenting, then together. He feels she's a 'better' child when I'm not around I feel the in reverse.


Through the posts you make, I have a mental image of your husband as a well meaning petulant child. Oft times, if no one REQUIRES us to grow up, we remain petulant children. We think we can demand, yell... We frequently don't THINK as much as we should.

One thing that might be interesting is to do the aforementioned self study of parenting and discipline techniques *and let him see you doing it.* 



> His actions and words are very controlling and I'm too tired to deal with them anymore. He refuses to help himself in that area. Feels it's 'my doing' due to change. Once I 'change' again to his liking, then his actions will be undercontroll.
> 
> Sorry...whole other topic that is a novel.
> 
> Thanks agian, thought for your post. It does help.


What does that mean? Once you resume cow towing to his abusive nonsense he is going to stop being a jerk to your daughter? I surely hope that is not what you mean!


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## sailorgirl

I haven't had time to read all the responses, so maybe this has been said before, but I see nothing wrong with you letting your 7 year old win occasionally. 

I love, LOVE card and board games. Electronic games not so much. But I started buying card and board games for my children when they were young, like 3 and 4 years old. We had go-fish, old maid, candy land etc...and progressively moved up to harder games. But when they were young I would let them win--not always because they need to learn to be good looser--but enough so that they enjoyed the game. 

Yeah, I could have won just about every game, but that would not have been enjoyable for them and they would have quickly lost interest. I also made it fun my having snacks like hot-cocoa and popcorn. We acted silly, made jokes and had a good time so that they enjoyed the time whether or no they won or lost. 

I wonder if you daughter is a perfectionist? Could her desire to win at all cost comes from something alone that line? One of my daughter's friends is like that. When she comes over to play a small part of me cringes because I know she will get upset if she looses a round of uno. But I also know this child is a HUGE perfectionist--I'd almost say OCD. Her grades, her homework, her room all has to be perfect. Many of our extend moms sort of coo over what a good child she is to be so neat and prefect but seriously, it would drive me nuts to have a child like her. Not saying that you daughter is like this little girl. 

Anyways maybe you can set up some sort of reward system with her that when she loses and is a good sport about it, she gets a treat or s sticker or something like that?


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## sailorgirl

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I hear you. But artificial success is likely to backfire in the end.


If it is always artificial success then yes, but I disagree and feel that depending on the age and development of the child the need to feel some sort of success. I allowed my children to win at games, not every single time they played, but while they were learning the game. I could have beat the pants off of my kids every single time when they were just starting to play games but if I had done that they would have quickly lost interest. Instead of focusing on winning or losing we focused on turn taking, having fun, and developing logical skills. Often I would explain my reasoning for making a certain move (if the game involved any sort of planing like that). As they developed skill and ability I would lessen the amount of letting them win. Now at 12 and 14 they are both good sports about not always winning.


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## Mom6547

sailorgirl said:


> If it is always artificial success then yes, but I disagree and feel that depending on the age and development of the child the need to feel some sort of success.


Definitely. That is why I suggested playing games that are more developmentally appropriate to her that she CAN succeed at.



> I allowed my children to win at games, not every single time they played, but while they were learning the game. I could have beat the pants off of my kids every single time when they were just starting to play games but if I had done that they would have quickly lost interest. Instead of focusing on winning or losing we focused on turn taking, having fun, and developing logical skills. Often I would explain my reasoning for making a certain move (if the game involved any sort of planing like that). As they developed skill and ability I would lessen the amount of letting them win. Now at 12 and 14 they are both good sports about not always winning.


Their self esteem is not anchored in the area of accomplishment. This is a good thing.


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## mentallydrained

vthomeschoolmom said:


> What does that mean? Once you resume cow towing to his abusive nonsense he is going to stop being a jerk to your daughter? I surely hope that is not what you mean!


In a sense...yes. He has admitted wrong doing, but in same breath says my 'growth/change' that I am proclaiming...has made him feel and react in this mannor. I've told him to seek medication to help calm/relax the symptom so he can work on the rest. He replies with "I didnt need medication before you started feeling this way...I don't need it now".


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## Mom6547

I know this is going to sound harsh. But I want to be clear. Is it your intention to resume pacifying his abuse and allowing your daughter to witness that model of marital relationship as well as endure that parental relationship? I would be curious what your counselor says about that?

Keep on keeping on. The answer is in you. You have all the strength you need.


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## mentallydrained

vthomeschoolmom said:


> I know this is going to sound harsh. But I want to be clear. Is it your intention to resume pacifying his abuse and allowing your daughter to witness that model of marital relationship as well as endure that parental relationship? I would be curious what your counselor says about that?
> 
> Keep on keeping on. The answer is in you. You have all the strength you need.


Not harsh...I need to see/hear this. No, not my intention.

Thank you. Right now, I don't feel I do have the strength, at least not fully. That's what I'm working on to not be dependent in pacifying him and regain FULL strength to do what I know is right.


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## major misfit

emotionalwreck said:


> Not harsh...I need to see/hear this. No, not my intention.
> 
> Thank you. Right now, I don't feel I do have the strength, at least not fully. That's what I'm working on to not be dependent in pacifying him and regain FULL strength to do what I know is right.


Then it is my fervent prayer that you continue to get stronger. I believe there is more strength in you than you can recognize. It's not a lack of strength that keeps you rooted where you are, I believe it's fear. Fear is the great paralyzer.


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