# No Shame Whatsoever:



## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

I am at the start of potentially the world's ugliest divorce. What amazes me more than anything is just how brazen my wife has become with her affair.

She e-mailed me yesterday to "say" she never asks, that she wanted to take my 5 and 7 year old to a water park this Saturday. She said that they'd be gone from 7 in the morning to about 10 at night. Her mea culpa was that she'd be happy to drop them off when they got back. What good are they to me at 10 friggin pm?

As she won't even let me take them to church on her weekends, I said absolutely no to her quasi request. To top matters off,this is frigging Father's Day weekend to boot. What's she thinking? I would ask you if she's gone mad, but sadly that would be a rhetorical question.

It's like my wife is reading an e-book on how to completely p*ss someone off during a divorce. I will continue to honor my marriage vows, but I tell you I'm honestly looking forward to the ink drying on my divorce papers. Furthermore, when I finally do "pair up" again it won't be with a fat, 60 year old unemployed oil worker. Have some pride woman.

How long does it take for someone to hit bottom anyway TAM readers? I just find it hard to believe that she has any more animals left to show me on this divorce safari from hell.

LIL


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## cmf (May 21, 2010)

It would appear it took my husband 8 months to hit bottom...not quite sure yet though. I have been on the divorce safari from hell too- since March. He just kicked out his OW- a fat, uneducated , heavy smoker, waitress. If she likes older men maybe the oil worker might like her.


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## DawnD (Sep 23, 2009)

I'm so sorry LIL. My H is the one that cheated and I would never even think to ask that he not get to have the boys on Fathers Day. I am still keeping my fingers crossed that this all ends for you soon. Being an honorable man takes a lot of patience. But when the end of the day comes, you still know that you are an honorable man, and that makes it worth it.


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## Feelingalone (Apr 22, 2009)

LIL,

So remind me again why you worried about her plight regarding the mortgage payments. At this point she is only the mother of your children -- nothing more. 

It sounds like she has a ways to go before she hits bottom -- lets just hope it isn't a bottomless pit.

Keep your strength LIL. Your future is bright -- you will be wearing shades!

Peace.


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## Susan2010 (Apr 19, 2010)

Yes, LIL, I think you know this will never end. As a matter of fact, it will get worse. Much worse. If you don't believe me, just visit some step parent/family forums and see how awful it is going to get. Just to let you know "BM" stands for birth mom in case you visit any of those forums to see the kinds antics and problems women in your wife's position inevitably cause. I have to say you are on the right track by denying her thoughtless request and by feeling the way you do about her request.

As it turns out, most men don't have the balls to stand up to the ex wife and continually allows her to cause problems. This causes major problems in the second marriage, and their second wife and second set of children truly suffer. Keep the attitude you have right now concerning your ex and don't let her get away with her crap. Don't let disrespect and neglect plague your next relationship/marriage. What I'm saying is you have to watch yourself, too. You will easily fall into being the typical BD (birth dad) if you are not careful. Typical BDs are the reason the divorce rate is much higher for second marriages than first marriages.

And just to reiterate, the crap is never going to end. I wish you well.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

*And just to reiterate, the crap is never going to end. I wish you well.*

Susan, why did you have to go and turn off my hope faucet? Of course the crap is going to end...right? Once I get primary custody of my kids; I'll be largely indifferent to whatever or whomever she does.

One of my morning patients chided me today that his divorce is officially "official" as of yesterday. He then pointed out that my court clock hasn't even begun to "tick". He said that that doesn't start until an agreement is reached between the two parties, and here I was thinking I was already half way through it.

Yuck, well time to get back out on the floor and help some folks get well. Peace out, and let's go easy on the negativity TAM brothers and sisters.

LIL


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

You won't get that negativity from almost any here. And not from me! We are here to succeed not fail. We are doers and not losers. Consider the dire foreboding. But don't dwell on it. Your eyes are open. Do what is right and honorable. Move forward.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

I'm so sorry all of this is getting nasty. All of this is truly unbelievable until one actually gets to experience it first hand.



lastinline said:


> I am at the start of potentially the world's ugliest divorce.


I'm going for the record on longest divorce--since 2006!




lastinline said:


> How long does it take for someone to hit bottom anyway TAM readers? I just find it hard to believe that she has any more animals left to show me on this divorce safari from hell.


That's a very good question--I've asked that one a lot too. Unfortunately I guess that depends on how "high up" a person was to begin with. My husband and I owned a $6 Million/year business in 2006 and had everything (except time). He decided to destroy everything we ever worked for. Life has been one big party to him since 2006. It was nothing for him to go through $20K a month. Well, I do believe we are now to rock bottom. We lost our business this week. And he still doesn't freaking care!!! I'm still researching "rock bottom" and its impact on an idiot!

Hang in there! I hope you get to spend Father's Day weekend with your children.


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## Lostandconfused (Jul 6, 2009)

Hi LIL, 

It's been a while since I've visited this site and I'm sorry that your path brought you to this crossroads, but then life has a way of bringing us to places we'd rather not visit based on decisions we make each moment of each day.

There are a few thoughts that popped into my head as I read your OP in this thread. Of course my emotions are not engaged in this situation so it's probably much easier for me to say this than to do it if I were faced with the same.

I'd suggest that you treat each request with rational thought processes. Does it make sense that she's wanting your two youngest for the entire day on your weekend? Is there a legitimate reason she wants to take them this particular Saturday? Does it fit in well with your plans to "swap" a weekend day with her? (This makes the assumption that you WILL require her to repay in kind her option to intrude upon your time with them with the expectation that it be rationally considered) Leave out all thoughts of what her motives are (as in p***ing you off, etc.) Those type of thoughts are completely a waste of your time, effort, emotions and give her way too much control over your life for a person you've chosen to distance yourself from imo. If it works from your perspective to switch weekend days with her, then fine be agreeable. If not, be respectful, polite, but adament in your decision. You've already fought these type of battles in the past and now with your divorce final, you're free of the need to participate. You now have a much higher authority to assist in deciding these things and personally, I'd use that and let my emotions remain free of irritation as much as possible. Scrap the sarcasm, it's costly at the price of your children's happiness and doesn't win anything worth having or bragging about in the long run.

Next, you refer to her new friend in a negative way. I hate to say it but you're implying a lack of value in this person strictly on appearance (overweight), age (60ish?), AND quite possibly something outside of his control for now (the lack of a job). Actually all three could quite possibly be outside of his control depending on health factors and certainly no-one can change the number of years they've lived up to now. The job situation is the same as thousands find theirself in atm. None of these three things automatically rule him out as being a very loving, very thoughtful and even attractive person, especially to someone who may (note I say may) have felt a lack of devotion and caring from a prior spouse. In her decision of who she will be with, your opinion doesn't count anymore. Sorry, but that's just the plain truth. 

The "crap" that is being discussed may or may not continue from her side of the net. That is her decision and her responsibility to live with. However, the "crap" that (may/could/is - I'll let you fill in the blank) be/being flung around on your side of the net is well within your control. I'd say for the sake of your children show them how an adult handles disappointments, adversity, failure, and relationships. Your marriage has already failed. If I were you, I'd be DA***D if I'd let my divorce do the same.

Of course, this is as always, just my $0.02.
Respectfully,
Lost

Side note - what may look like "rock bottom" to you may look like a "step up" to her. It's all perspective.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LIL,
I understand that your personal sense of honor dictates waiting until the legal process concludes before you engage in any romantic liasons. And that says a lot about you. 

Most people would look at it differently. The courts are very slow. Once two people have truly and firmly decided they are done and initiated the legal process of divorce, they ARE divorced in spirit. Your wife is acting on the "spirit" of the agreement (marriage contract) while you adhere to the "letter" of the contract. 

Unfortunately applying your standard to her behavior is simply driving you mad. Emotionally you still appear to think of her as "yours" and are therefore VERY focused on her behavior and associations. She likely sees this as you meddling in her life post divorce (again spirit of the law vs letter of the law). 

I fail to see how your focus on her choice of partners is helping you. I also think your determined comparison of yourself to this other guy is not good for your head. 




Lostandconfused said:


> Hi LIL,
> 
> It's been a while since I've visited this site and I'm sorry that your path brought you to this crossroads, but then life has a way of bringing us to places we'd rather not visit based on decisions we make each moment of each day.
> 
> ...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Wow. She set you up to look like a heel on Fathers Day. So now she gets to tell the kids that "Dad said you can't go to the water park with us."

With six children, obviously you won't ever be truly separated from the woman you need to separate from, but I second MEM's input. You need to stop thinking of her in terms of Mrs. Sh!thouse Crazy LastInLine.

I know it is a difficult cord to cut - and you haven't cut it. That's why her behavior continues to fuel your anger and disbelief. I know the feeling.

But ... the day will come when you look at her more like one of your business partners than you do the woman you pledged vows to. I won't argue with being honorable to yourself, but viewing your wedding vows as having the same weight and meaning now, as they did when you took them is jousting with windmills.

She isn't likely to change any time soon. Work around her, for your own well being and that of your kids.


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

*Next, you refer to her new friend in a negative way. I hate to say it but you're implying a lack of value in this person strictly on appearance (overweight), age (60ish?), AND quite possibly something outside of his control for now (the lack of a job). Actually all three could quite possibly be outside of his control depending on health factors and certainly no-one can change the number of years they've lived up to now. The job situation is the same as thousands find theirself in atm. None of these three things automatically rule him out as being a very loving, very thoughtful and even attractive person, especially to someone who may (note I say may) have felt a lack of devotion and caring from a prior spouse. In her decision of who she will be with, your opinion doesn't count anymore. Sorry, but that's just the plain truth. *

Lostandconfused, historically you have given me great advice, but this time I'm taking you to the mat. The guy is a piece of dog crap. To be "fair" let's focus for a moment on things that are or were within Joe's control: 

Thing 1: he left his first wife to have an adulterous affair
Thing 2: he left the person he left his first wife for and subsequently had a kid with
Thing 3: he left his second wife to have an adulterous affair
Thing 4: he lost his job because he got in an altercation at work. I'm glad he likes to fight, but he still won't answer the door when I knock. Too bad.
Thing 5: he's a sh!tty dad. I have met 4 of his kids and they behave like crack addicts.
Thing 6: he purposely pursued an affair with a woman who is obviously not mentally well. I know his last ex as well, and she has issues as well. He seems to prey on these sorts of women.
Thing 7: mentally he's a chimp. I know a few people out of work, but go to the library and check out a friggin book or two. Turn off the tv and learn something.
Thing 8: he's fat. Have some pride guy. I've seen his hair, nails, and eyes enough to doubt it's a thyroid issue. Put down the beer can.

I could go on, but why. You're going to believe what you're going to believe, so it's pointless. I could tell you that my wife spelled her last name wrong today on my son's permission slip for his DMV test, but I don't even think that would phase you at this point. You seem as though your mind is made up.

I don't want her back. However, this guy is seriously bad news, and he's a complete friggin looser. I still love her enough to not want to see her get hurt. He is not being supportive, he's using her. I find it hard not to try to protect her, as that is my nature. If nothing else, she's still the mother of my kids.

As for the lack of devotion,she's the one that didn't work in or outside the home. She's the one that wouldn't even leave food out, or iron for me. I guess lots of people routinely throw away loyal, attractive, educated, well paid spouses that are excellent fathers, for toads. I just some how missed it in my day to day travels. 

I honestly think she just wanted to be in a relationship with someone that she was "better than" for a change. I know that probably sounds arrogant as hell, but I think she wanted a situation where she could call all of the shots, and she got it, but at what price. Yuck.

LIL


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## iamnottheonlyone (May 9, 2010)

Yeah. It is suggested in some of the readings that most WS affair down. The expectations by the OP are lower. Over the last few months my wife has used more explatives than she ever has in my presence. I have never been one for "swear words". YOur wife and my wife seem to be working down to the lowest common denominator.


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## Lostandconfused (Jul 6, 2009)

lastinline said:


> *Next, you refer to her new friend in a negative way. I hate to say it but you're implying a lack of value in this person strictly on appearance (overweight), age (60ish?), AND quite possibly something outside of his control for now (the lack of a job). Actually all three could quite possibly be outside of his control depending on health factors and certainly no-one can change the number of years they've lived up to now. The job situation is the same as thousands find theirself in atm. None of these three things automatically rule him out as being a very loving, very thoughtful and even attractive person, especially to someone who may (note I say may) have felt a lack of devotion and caring from a prior spouse. In her decision of who she will be with, your opinion doesn't count anymore. Sorry, but that's just the plain truth. *
> 
> Lostandconfused, historically you have given me great advice, but this time I'm taking you to the mat. The guy is a piece of dog crap. To be "fair" let's focus for a moment on things that are or were within Joe's control:
> 
> ...


WOW! Just WOW! At first I was completely at a loss of why you've decided to "take me to the mat" BUT rereading through your responses I believe I can understand your take on my post. I'm sorry you see me as inflexible and unable to "change" my mind or listen to another's point of view. I believe I'm not like that. (OK not all the time anyway. lol I do have my moments of being stubborn.)

Now since you have "taken me to the mat", let's look at your OP. You stated his age, lack of job, and weight. NOTHING about the other things you mention now. These things you mention now are valid points for concern for your children to be around and in his care. However, I responded based on the information YOU gave. Now, if you'd said all of the above do you really believe I would point out that HER choices for a partner aren't your business anymore? It becomes your busines when it affects your children but there is a fine line there between being concerned for "her" and being concerned for them. 

In response to her/your lack of devotion, I believe I've said it before, someone has to stop the cycle of reactions/actions. If she withdraws and you withdraw in return does it solve the problem? Sadly, no. If she is angry and you become angry, does it solve the problem? No. The only way to change a reoccuring situation is to change one of the constants. Change begets change. But, that's a dead horse and I won't continue to beat it.

Ok, now I'm stepping back off the mat because regardless of how you took my post, it was intended to help you see your fixation on "her" as still being part of your life. IMO, this isn't healthy for you or the children. Fixating on her doesn't mean you want her back as she is now, but does imo, imply that you WISH for her back as you "desired" her to be. Maintaining respectful communication and interactions are, imo, imperative to giving your children a safe haven from the turmoil their emotions must be in.

As a side note, I truly have always thought you were one terrific man (ok so admittedly a tiny bit arrogant lol) and I can't understand her unwillingness to open up to you on what her real issues were with you. I've never lost respect for you. As a matter of fact I wish there were more men like you that values truth, high personal ethics and discipline AND that I actually knew them. LOL

Hoping you'll accept my apology for offending you. I truly didn't mean my post the way it came across at all. Willing to take the "knock out" because I so obviously miscommunicated. 

Respectfully and a trifle sadly,
Lost

Note to self: ask questions before giving opinion.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LIL,
You might find a better path by defining proper boundaries. Your area of legitimate focus is on the interaction between this man and your children. Full stop. ANY statements you utter to your wife, or anyone in your social circle OUTSIDE that scope of legitimate interest DILUTES your message and WEAKENS your credibility. 

I am not questioning the accuracy of your assessment. What I will tell you is if you end up having a valid grievance with this guy about how he is interacting with your kids - you will have less credibility because you will have convinced EVERYONE that you may not be rational where he is concerned.

You need to bring all that martial arts discipline to this situation because right now you are fighting like a common street brawler with no regard to conserving your energy and without the focus needed to land a knockout blow if you get a real opening. 

I sympathize with your anger but am surprised someone with your level of self control would respond to a situation like this. 



lastinline said:


> *Next, you refer to her new friend in a negative way. I hate to say it but you're implying a lack of value in this person strictly on appearance (overweight), age (60ish?), AND quite possibly something outside of his control for now (the lack of a job). Actually all three could quite possibly be outside of his control depending on health factors and certainly no-one can change the number of years they've lived up to now. The job situation is the same as thousands find theirself in atm. None of these three things automatically rule him out as being a very loving, very thoughtful and even attractive person, especially to someone who may (note I say may) have felt a lack of devotion and caring from a prior spouse. In her decision of who she will be with, your opinion doesn't count anymore. Sorry, but that's just the plain truth. *
> 
> Lostandconfused, historically you have given me great advice, but this time I'm taking you to the mat. The guy is a piece of dog crap. To be "fair" let's focus for a moment on things that are or were within Joe's control:
> 
> ...


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## lastinline (Jul 21, 2009)

Mem11363, thank you for your advice. You, Atholk, and Lostandconfused have all been so very helpful to me as I've navigated the waters of my dying marriage.

*You need to bring all that martial arts discipline to this situation because right now you are fighting like a common street brawler with no regard to conserving your energy and without the focus needed to land a knockout blow if you get a real opening.*

I honestly hear what your saying, but sometimes the best strategy is simply not to fight at all. I will give her what she wants; a life without me. In return, I'll take what I need; a life with someone who is capable of a healthy, mature, refining love. 

I have made the mistake of resisting her throughout this process. I will no longer attempt to save her from herself. I have said my peace, and she knows what she needs to know. It is now up to her to have the wisdom and the courage to choose to act on it. It is up to me to do the same as well. 

It is time for me to stop walking through the rubble, and begin the difficult but rewarding process of rebuilding a better life. 


LIL


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## Atholk (Jul 25, 2009)

lastinline said:


> She e-mailed me yesterday to "say" she never asks, that she wanted to take my 5 and 7 year old to a water park this Saturday. She said that they'd be gone from 7 in the morning to about 10 at night. Her mea culpa was that she'd be happy to drop them off when they got back. What good are they to me at 10 friggin pm?
> 
> As she won't even let me take them to church on her weekends, I said absolutely no to her quasi request. To top matters off,this is frigging Father's Day weekend to boot. What's she thinking? I would ask you if she's gone mad, but sadly that would be a rhetorical question.


You can't ask her about you taking them to church on her weekend. It's her weekend.

Likewise she can't try and pry them off you on your weekend.

Divorce sucks.


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