# Concerns... if you think so, it's probably so...



## frantark (Dec 10, 2012)

Yesterday is the day I figured it out. I had minor suspicions but for the first time in a long time my cheating detector went off. Too many little things stacking up. And since it's rusty as hell, it went off pretty late.

I checked her phone. In synopsis, "Miss you" This is to a coworker of hers. I don't miss anyone from my work over a weekend. There wasn't a history for that number otherwise, but all of the other conversations were there from months ago. I check the cell phone bill. It's simply crazy how many texts there are. Nearly every day, throughout the day and evening. Started about 60 days ago. I don't know what they are about, but... I feel like it doesn't matter.

The messages I do have in fragments are flirty though not direct. Her diligent deleting of history means I may not find out much more. They would not be easy to explain, however.

I'm left with the question of how much I should spy and collect. My street instincts say I should get as much as I can, but also that I need to strike quickly before my own mood gives too much away (I'm not hiding this well). My investment in the relationship says I don't need to know any more and I just need to call the situation out and deal with whatever falls. I don't really have anyone I'm comfortable going to with this, so your thoughts are welcome as I sort through this.


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

What if she keeps lying and takes it underground ? Collect enough evidence. 

what phone does she have?


What were the other signs that were stacking up?


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Get some intel on this coworker. Is he married? Expose the amount of texts to his gf/wife. Put a VAR in the car.


----------



## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

tom67 said:


> Get some intel on this coworker. Is he married? Expose the amount of texts to his gf/wife. Put a VAR in the car.


If you do expose without the actual textual conversations, my bet is that this is going to go underground. I'm good at lying, its what I'd do, construct some c0ck and bull story of how the coworker is very incompetent in her job and that I have to guide her every step of the way. So gather enough data first 

Try and retrieve all the conversations, install a keylogger onto your computer.

And expect the worst, go in with a contingency plan. Analyze all possible outcomes and what you would do in each case.


----------



## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Are you willing to reconcile if, in the event you find out that the affair has gone physical? That's an important question to mull over in the meantime. 

If you are not willing to stay with her if she's had a physical affair, don't confront her, avoid the drama, just go see your lawyer and drop the bomb on her. Surprise is key. Once you do that, expose to the OMW. 

Btw, is your wife the kind that would turn vindictive when cornered?


----------



## AngryandUsed (Jun 23, 2011)

Looks she is into an EA at the least.

Go into a stealthy mode, if you bother to know the truth and collect evidences for confronting.

Are you married?


----------



## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Sorry to hear about your situation.

First you need to take care of yourself, stay healthy until you decide to call it quits or try to fix it.

Second you need to figure out the degree of this(or others) relationship is. Emotional or physical for example. Once you know the extent of it, you'll be able to make much more healthy decisions.

Which phone is she using? On some you'll be able to recover deleted texts.

Do you have access to her emails or social media accounts? She could be using its messengers as well.

During the day is there any unaccounted for times of her? Any 2-3 hour shopping trips? Girls night out? Anytime she could be visiting this guy?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frantark (Dec 10, 2012)

We've been married for 5 years. He's divorced. Nearly a vagabond, but charming. 

They do apparently facebook when phones aren't an option. She deletes that history as well. The covering of tracks just doesn't bode well as it shows she recognizes it's wrong, despite that she must be rationalizing all of it somehow.

There isn't really unexplained time out there. When I've not been at home or she hasn't, she either has a verified story or texts during the timeframe. But I'd be a fool at this point to say it wasn't possible.

I'm not seeing a real good end game to all of this. I'd like to work it out, but it's complicated. We are halfway started on the adoption process. I don't see any way to keep that on the rails in the short term. Combined with her biological imperative... that alone could push her over the edge.

Thanks for all of the feedback and support.


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Stop the adoption process immediately unless one of you can take care of the kid by themselves


----------



## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

I agree with Warlock. You cannot go through this process while in such a difficult one involving what will be the 2 parents. But obviously you will need to talk with her about this, she will want to know why the process is halting. 

It seems you don't need any more confirmation. Will you be open to her gas lighting if you approach with a lack of evidence? Because she WILL minimise this. She will say she deleted only for a silly reason. That she is doing nothing. He is a friend. She deleted because she knew you would see bad in the texts when there is nothing bad there. 

You can always try to recover the deleted messages. There are ways. Demand the phone from her and do it...before they are overwritten.

So just gather what you can right now and confront her and stop the adoption. Or at least discuss the adoption with a view to becoming 2 single parents! Not a good start for an already unwanted baby.


----------



## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

frantark said:


> Yesterday is the day I figured it out. I had minor suspicions but for the first time in a long time my cheating detector went off. Too many little things stacking up. And since it's rusty as hell, it went off pretty late.
> 
> I checked her phone. In synopsis, "*Miss you*" This is to a *coworker* of hers. I don't miss anyone from my work over a weekend. There wasn't a history for that number otherwise, but all of the other conversations were there from months ago. I check the cell phone bill. It's simply crazy how many texts there are. Nearly every day, throughout the day and evening. *Started about 60 days ago*. I don't know what they are about, but... I feel like it doesn't matter.
> 
> ...


Can you think of any work-related after-hours function from when the texts started? 

Are they friends on facebook? 

Do you share passwords with each other?

"Miss you" over the weekend to an opposite sex co-worker is a very bad sign. What time of day are their texts? Does she send him one every morning when she wakes up? Every night sometime before going to bed?

Were any pictures exchanged?

Because you don't have any missing time, a voice-activated recorder is a good idea. Put it under the seat of her car with some heavy-duty velcro. She probably talks to him in the car on her way to and from work. Be prepared, she may be meeting up with him in the car during lunch.

Also be prepared, emotional affairs move to physical affairs at the speed of light when the two cheaters have easy access to each other. Be prepared for the worst, hope for the best.

You do have enough to confront her now if you are willing to stand your ground. You tell her that based on the sheer volume of texts and the times of day they're occurring, plus the "miss you" to an opposite sex co-worker over the weekend, plus the diligent deleting of all text and facebook history with this particular guy, plus the "flirty" nature of the texts, you must assume that she is having an affair. If she denies it, tell her that her denial just does not make any sense in light of the facts that you know and there is no way you could believe otherwise based on the facts and you would like her to take a polygraph.

In your case, though, I think you could save yourself a lot of time and trouble in the long run if you can get the voice-activated recorder in the car pretty quickly. If you do, you should be able to tell the extent of what's going on with her and other man within a week or so. The danger or waiting is that it could go physical at any time, if it hasn't already.


----------



## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

frantark said:


> We've been married for 5 years. He's divorced. Nearly a vagabond, but charming.
> 
> They do apparently facebook when phones aren't an option. She deletes that history as well. The covering of tracks just doesn't bode well as it shows she recognizes it's wrong, despite that she must be rationalizing all of it somehow.
> 
> ...


Would you be aware if both your wife and other man called in sick or came in late or left early on the same day?

Has your wife purchased any new lingerie or sexy clothes or taken efforts to make herself more attractive in the past several months?


----------



## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

I'm sorry you are here.

Don't believe her BS for one minute.

It's now you vs. her.

Take what you "think" may have happened between them
and double the pain. While it may not have happened, you need
to be prepared emotionally for the truth.

Get a GPS and hide it in her car, ASAP.
Install a Keylogger on all computers she has access to.
Play dumb... lie in the weeds like a ninja... "yes, dear" and "okay honey" should be the words you use the most until you get to
the bottom of it. Wait a month or so. If you come up empty
in your search for the truth, hire a PI.

It can (and does) happen to the best of us.

Check out the link in my sig if you think otherwise.

I wish you the best of luck. Stay strong and know that whatever
happens, you will grow and learn from it.


----------



## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

The main point to remember her folks is, if two adults
wanna get together to bump uglies... they will.

The pattern of the txts are telling. 
They aided me in painting the picture of what happened and helped me piece together the truth on my own.

They have either already done the deed, or they sure as hell intend to.
There's nothing innocent or cute about it.

Protect yourself!!!


----------



## frantark (Dec 10, 2012)

I'm all over the place thought process and emotionally. 

I'm going to take some steps today as you all have suggested. I agree that I need to cover my back since I'm being taken advantage of to at least some degree. It all comes down to the degree.


----------



## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Take the steps you need to, man. This stuff sucks. The main thing you've gotta keep in mind is this: What is your deal breaker? Figure that out and keep it to yourself when you confront your wife. Never reveal your sources either. Also, I believe there is a program out there to recover deleted IM'ng from Facebook. Do a search and you'll find it. See, they can delete it from the browser, but that doesn't clear it from your cache (I believe that's how it works).

I discovered my wife's affair, too. Like you, I was all over the place emotionally. I wish I could've taken a month off from work when this first started. My wife and I are working on reconciliation. Hell, 9 months later I'd still like to take a month off!

Again...what's the deal breaker?


----------



## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Do you have a key logger on her computer - if not get one there and get her FB password!

IF you get one of the keyloggers that takes screen shots you'll get to see the FB messages.

You need a VAR in her car asap - they might be using it at lunch to go out/hookup.

If you can activate and use the find her phone feature, if you can use it without her knowing.

The #1 thing feared by most cheaters, especially woman,is blow back to the OM. Not you confronting him , but exposure and humiliation. They fear the OM will dump them if he gets blow back.

So use that in your strategy.

Two rules: Don't confront without full details and never even at confrontation reveal sources.

btw - it sounds like a good chance it's gone PA. The miss you is what lovers say.


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

F,

I've been there. You have been given some good advice. I confronted without proof, just gut emotion... bad move. You need to just play it cool and back off the direct confrontation for the time being. Now it the time to get real proof...

1) VAR now.
2) key logger. 
3) monitor her time outside the house.


----------



## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

RWB said:


> F,
> 
> I've been there. You have been given some good advice. I confronted without proof, just gut emotion... bad move. You need to just play it cool and back off the direct confrontation for the time being. Now it the time to get real proof...
> 
> ...


Indeed. Me too, although i was told by a reliable source and confronted her immediately with that, i had no concrete evidence. 
I ended up being played, lied to, led into false R (twice), and trickle truthed for at least 3 months. And hell, im not even sure now that i know the whole truth. 
Collect the evidence. Have a plan for each response and stick to it. 
Dont make the mistakes myself and so many others here made because we did not have this resource.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frantark (Dec 10, 2012)

It's getting harder to read what I find as anything less than unfaithful. I've been taking pictures of the messages she leaves not deleted. 

If I have a suspected meet up time, should I be amateur PI and photograph a car in a parking lot? Should I hire one?? I have a half baked plan of getting a rental car and shadowing. Should I try and disrupt the (potential) plans? I can disrupt them easily but I feel like it would be a lost opportunity to wrap this up quickly.

I feel like if I have some pictures of her in a place she lied being about with someone she's been texting thousands of times with a few fragments of them that show affection and flirting, while applying for adoption with a husband, she would have long odds in family court.

I have no idea what she is possibly thinking. She's otherwise a smart and ethical person. She must have gone head over heels for him and be in irrational land. Unless she was just thinking she could play us both? I know that not being able to have kids is way up on the list of marriage stressors, I just had no concept we wouldn't make it.

My starting planning for life without her and building the firewall makes me feel like it is already over. Up until hours ago she was the best thing that ever happened to me and now it feels like ashes in the wind.


----------



## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

The mind produces chemicals that lead to addiction. That's what you have right now, and the infatuation is the drug. Cut the drug out, she could go through withdrawl, and look back at the whole thing with horror and disgust. She's not there now though, right now, this is the best thing that has ever happened to her, and she will fight tooth and nail for it.

So what do you want? Really want? You could get her back. It is hard, very hard. Would you be happy in the end to win a cheater back? 

You have no kids, and she is now a proven cheater. If that is too much, just skip all the drama and divorce. Find out if you are in a fault state, or a no fault state. If it's no fault, then don't even bother collecting evidence, it won't make a difference.

If you want her back, then follow the advice above, and get monitoring in place ASAP. As hard as divorce is, I can pretty much guarantee reconciling after this will be harder.


----------



## WyshIknew (Aug 18, 2012)

There is a post that one of the guys puts up from time to time. I can't find it but it basically details the steps from first meeting an ex from "hi how you been?" all the way through to "I never realised my husband and I had such problems" "I'd best hump my ex"


----------



## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

frantark,

Something you might want to try:

If your wife gets her e-mails through e-mail software on her computer (Outlook, Outlook Express, Window's Mail) instead of web-based (hot mail, g-mail, etc), it's very possible you can recover her deleted e-mails.

If she does, you can open up her e-mail account on another computer (you'll need her password) and there's a good possibility that the ISP e-mail server will download months of historical received messages - even ones that were previously deleted. 

Also, there is e-mail recovery software available that can recover deleted e-mails from her computer. (again, if she uses those same programs I mentioned, the deleted files should still be on her hard drive).

Keep in mind that Facebook messages are generally copied to the receiver's e-mail, so you might get lucky and get her deleted (received only) Facebook messages by either of these methods.

It worked for me.


----------



## cantthinkstraight (May 6, 2012)

No kids?

Man, I'd track her for a month... that means GPS, keyloggers, VAR, etc. 
and if anything was out of the ordinary, I'd ask her about it.

In fact... rather than coming out and accusing her of what
you already know to be true, instead ask HER to fill in the details
of where she says she'll be, what she;s doing, etc.
Then you match that to what you've been tracking for that month.

If she's lying, then you have a decision to make.

I'd drop her like a bad habit, myself. Not worth it, and in the end,
it's all about what YOU decide to accept. Which sucks.


----------



## frantark (Dec 10, 2012)

I've been able to recover some recent data. All I can say is... you all know what you are doing.

I started building a file with a timeline, observed and recovered data. I went back and compared it our calendar and to the texting timeline (exact history, but no content). 

I took some time today to process. I do need time to come to a measured conclusion and be composed. I think I've already had the conversation a hundred times in my head. In the meantime, every day the picture gets clearer.

I don't know where this path takes me. I feel the pace of the unravelling of my life decreasing, and it is a new reality... no better or worse than yesterday. I'm working through the logistics of staying and going so I have a plan for whatever path she takes us down. One path feels very narrow.

Thanks again everyone.


----------



## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

What was it that you uncovered?


----------



## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

She is currently an addict. Irrational, unreliable, irresponsible to the utmost degree. Why would you allow her to have any choice at this point in choosing the path of YOUR life.

You need to stand up, make your choice, and forge your path. She might come along, she might not, but do not give her any control over your choices until you have a clear, sustained record of her making good choices for herself before you even entertain the thought of listening to her.


----------



## frantark (Dec 10, 2012)

I've previously been cheated on, not in marriage. That was relatively easy for me to walk away from even though at the time I was in love. Never looked back. It's probably the only reason I know what I know now, having developed some instincts that allowed me see past my love.

Confirmation was of prior PA.

There's way more I don't know. But they think I'm still blind. From what I can tell, that puts me in the drivers seat for the first time in awhile.


----------



## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

In the driver's seat to do what? What do you want? How much pain do you want to suffer through? How long do you want to be reminded of it? What is the pay off for the pain?


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

frantark said:


> I've previously been cheated on, not in marriage. That was relatively easy for me to walk away from even though at the time I was in love. Never looked back. It's probably the only reason I know what I know now, having developed some instincts that allowed me see past my love.
> *
> Confirmation was of prior PA.*
> 
> There's way more I don't know. But they think I'm still blind. From what I can tell, that puts me in the drivers seat for the first time in awhile.


I'd say that bolded part is enough. You've only been married 5 years and she's on affair #2 at minimum. Throw this one back in the lake and cast your rod back out.


----------



## frantark (Dec 10, 2012)

I phrased that poorly, I had rough confirmation that they had slept together already.

I decided to disrupt what I presumed was their planned date as a test. Her reaction made it easy to see that it was what I suspected. The next day I was at my end, but I had as much as I needed by various means. I decided to confront her.

She's saying she wants to reconcile. If she lives up to open and honest then I think it could work. She did try to keep up the lie about the planned date but broke down shortly later. I haven't detected a lie since then.

I'm guarded though. She could easily assume that they can now only talk in person, and be working on a backup plan. I made sure she knows that there is no room for slips or lies from here.

I am much better now. Regardless of whether the marriage is done or not, I think I've regained myself. I can sleep again, I'm eating normally. I'm not scared of the future. It's going to be a journey though.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

You have kids right? If so, offering her the gift of R is noble. However, intel ops continue. It's good that you've mentioned you understand why that has to be. You know about NC and all that stuff. Have her do the timeline and all that to make her get reflective enough to break through her hamsterism. You also need to realize that a woman having a physical adulterous affair is like a crack fiend. 

Google this string: sex, PEA, norepinephrine, dopamine, serotonin, testosterone and start reading. OM's jizz is also a source of mood elevating chemistry and that's why adulteresses don't like to use rubbers. Because of all this animalistic stuff, they are hooked. Just the adultery turns them out unbelievably and women will do things with their POSOM they will never do with the BH. Why? Because womens' disgust reaction goes down to zero the more sexually turned on they are. You probably know this already, but refresh yourself. Most women have a few relapses because of all this.

Now, the part that often gets overlooked, what's your sex rank? Do you get hit on by women?

Get a copy of MMSL and read the blog. Read the blog at Roissy's Chateau. And don't forget the blog at Alpha Game Plan. Lots of things to learn about maintaining sexual attraction with any woman, especially a WW. Good luck.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> Hell, 9 months later I'd still like to take a month off!


Yep. Even after having functionally checked out from work for the last 10.


----------



## Harken Banks (Jun 12, 2012)

Machiavelli said:


> You have kids right?


My read is "not." OP, I can't see why you would put yourself through this wringer if not to try to hold a family together.


----------



## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

You have no kids, why stay with a cheater then? It is incredibly hard to reconcile. You are going to have to go to war with yourself to stay. She clearly is not worth it, so why put yourself through hell?


----------



## workindad (May 7, 2011)

SadandAngry said:


> You have no kids, why stay with a cheater then? It is incredibly hard to reconcile. You are going to have to go to war with yourself to stay. She clearly is not worth it, so why put yourself through hell?


I have to agree, I'd bail if there were no kids, but that is a decision you must make for yourself. 

Good Luck
WD


----------



## lionsguy22 (Dec 2, 2012)

So did she fess up to a complete PA affair?

Beware of trickle truth.


----------



## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

frantark said:


> I phrased that poorly, I had rough confirmation that they had slept together already.
> 
> I decided to disrupt what I presumed was their planned date as a test. Her reaction made it easy to see that it was what I suspected. The next day I was at my end, but I had as much as I needed by various means. I decided to confront her.
> 
> ...


You're heading to a failure. 

Right now pack her stuff and kick her out. Then expose her to all family and friends.

Only when she comes begging for R should you give her another chance. Not the other way around. Otherwise she'll just keep doing it over and over again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## frantark (Dec 10, 2012)

I'm by no means convinced we are heading towards reconciliation. I've been reminded that the only person I can change is me, so I'm practically assuming that zero has changed for her. All monitoring is still in place.

We have no kids. Difficulties there the last few years had to contribute to this situation. She says they slept together twice. I have a bright line now... if she was sleeping with him trying to get pregnant.

I've read over the MMSL summary and I'll dig further into it. I don't consider that I get hit on much, but she has complained that I'm flirty and overly charming with other women. She has some body image issues (that aren't justified). I can totally see where she saw this as proving/improving her rank, and/or he being higher rank than me. I guess I'll be much better educated here quickly. 

A friend of mine that has a few years on me told me once that the universe has a horrible system where the attractiveness of men increases with age, but for women they fade without any grace or composure, dooming the species to be unhappy except for the brief crossing at the middle. 

Thanks for all of the suggestions, even the "leave now" ones... that can easily become the most reasonable option in the snap of a finger and I know that I won't be crazy to do it.


----------



## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

frantark,
I just want to commend you for calmly and cooly collecting evidence. You would be surprised how many people wring their hands over "snooping," i.e., verifying that a likely liar is, in fact lying. And not just lying, but going to town and back.

Also, now you know about the myth of "there's no unaccountable time." Just about everyone clings to the fig leaf of no PA on this basis. As has been said, if two people want to have sex, they will.

If she wants to reconcile, then you should be requesting No Contact, meaning that she permanently sever this relationship. She must become entirely transparent--provide all passwords, email accounts, chat software, etc. that she uses to communicate. She must account for her time. She has lost your trust and she must earn it back.

But guess what--he's a coworker. That means as you say, she doesn't need a smartphone to hook up with him or to plan on how to take it underground.

She is going to have to leave her job if she wants to recommit to the marriage. The reason for this is that an infatuation and sexual attraction such as this never really dies. And as has been mentioned, this level of hormonal bonding literally alters the brain. The entire thing--the secrecy, the lies, the illicit sneaking around, the wondering what he's up to when he's not there, waiting for his messages, etc. is all part of a hormonal reward circuit in the brain. She's probably happiest when her phone buzzes with a text message from him that she has not yet read--just like when you get a present but before it's unwrapped. 

Every "hit" that she gets, just locking eyes with him at work, all feeds into this bonding. You remember the butterflies at the start of a romantic relationship--it's an intoxicating connection. And in her station and situation in life, with fertility, aging, what have you, it's a powerful, escapist fantasy. She is not going to just roll over and give up that fantasy.

So, *she will need to write a letter of No Contact that you review and send to the OM*. You should also figure out on facebook if he has any family members he likely respects and out him. *You should have her sit down with you and tell her family members who she respects.* You may consider outing them to their boss. She says she wants to reconcile, but she is so weak that she will not likely sever the bond on her own. This doesn't mean she's particularly evil, it's just that the affair has that strong of a hold. 

*Also: are there any toxic enabling coworkers or other friends who may facilitate their relationship by giving them cover stories or a place to meet?* You can GPS her phone or her car to make sure her stories match up with what she's telling you.

However, you sound emotionally distant. I realize this could be shock, but you also strike me as conflicted over what you want to do. That's understandable, too. You have quite a ways to go to fight for your marriage. I sense you are wondering whether or not it's worth the effort.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

frantark said:


> I'm by no means convinced we are heading towards reconciliation. I've been reminded that the only person I can change is me, so *I'm practically assuming that zero has changed for her. All monitoring is still in place.*


Excellent. Your realism and willingness to learn will serve you well, and not just in this particular situation.



frantark said:


> We have no kids. Difficulties there the last few years had to contribute to this situation. She says they slept together twice. I have a bright line now... if she was sleeping with him trying to get pregnant.


If she says "twice" figure ten. That's no slam on your wife, it's just the standard female sexual minimization program that comes installed from the factory. If she's around 28-38, the reproduce at all costs program is also running, in a continuous loop.



frantark said:


> I've read over the MMSL summary and I'll dig further into it. I don't consider that I get hit on much, but she has complained that I'm flirty and overly charming with other women.


Keep it up. Get your waist size down to 32 or less. Chest 44 or more. At the same time. Your wife needs to understand that you have options and that means to get your sex rank to absolute maximum. However, if she's fertile and you're shooting blanks, this is going to be problematic.



frantark said:


> She has some body image issues (that aren't justified). I can totally see where she saw this as proving/improving her rank, and/or he being higher rank than me. I guess I'll be much better educated here quickly.


Female hypergamy rules and many guys with high rank, or who can fake it, are more than happy to take pleasure from that fact. Keep educating yourself. There's not really that much to learn. And after you do, you'll understand you've known it subconsciously all along through your own observations. And it's kind of disconcerting how it really, truly does work.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Whats up with the deal on adobting a kid and screwing around on you? I mean you had to of asked your what she was thinking.

I guess even after being here for so long it still amazes me how illogical a waywards thinking is.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

the guy said:


> Whats up with the deal on adobting a kid and screwing around on you? I mean you had to of asked your what she was thinking.
> 
> I guess even after being here for so long it still amazes me how illogical a waywards thinking is.


It's not logical, it's biological. In no way does this excuse anything, though. Humans are theoretically supposed to have self control, but you sure wouldn't guess it from what goes on.


----------



## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

We had another BS going thru adoption, and one ww getting fertility treatments. 

NO ADOPTION dude.


----------



## frantark (Dec 10, 2012)

The adoption process is absolutely on hold. She admits that what was happening makes no sense, but that in the moment she had rationalized all of it.

Still no new lies on old items, she's being straight up and going beyond the areas I specifically ask about. There still much more to work out though, mostly in terms of eliminating the potential of a relapse. 

I made a huge forensic hit with one of her devices that had cache and history data up to the beginning. It's only a partial picture as well, but it confirms things like her story that the sex was bad, and gives me a few more key questions.

MMSL has been fascinating. Machiavelli, you are absolutely right, it's not that any of the concepts individually are surprising, it's just how much the conventional wisdom goes against what is intuitive.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Has this "forensic hit" been discussed and confronted?

Are you stepping back and working on your self?

What is the deal with addressing the possiblity of a relaps and why can't she learn the tools to affair proof the marriage or any other relationship with out you? What makes her so broken that she can't commit to fixing it?


----------



## frantark (Dec 10, 2012)

I haven't revealed any of the collected evidence, other than what I obtained directly from her behavior. I don't see any upside in revealing the extent of what I know or my sources, unless it was exposing all but one source to make that one appear safe for her to exploit.

Taking care of myself was kicked off before the confrontation, and really I think it's a big part of why I in as good as of a position as I am in leverage, physical, and emotional capability. Realizing the difference between wanting and needing it to work was big as well. I had lost myself and my individual identity to the marriage. The MMSL's MAP is very appealing right now. 

She would say she's committed to fixing it. Time will tell. Along with a few critical pointed questions.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

You are correct, never reveal your sources especially when she wants the marriage...its the only way to make sure she doesn't have a different agenda and not giving you lip serves.

It sounds like you have a plan and are working the plan.

I also comment you on doing the work in informing your self and learning....be it with or with out your wife.

Well done sir.

So many time I hear from these threads that the waywards "want to make it work " or " want to work it out" but they realy don't have a clue until they are given clear direction and the consequences for crossing the boundries. She has to know what you want in keeping her around and saving *her* marriage. These things sould be non negogiable.


----------



## frantark (Dec 10, 2012)

Made it the first time through MMSL. Wow.... no, make that WOW. Talk about a truth hidden plain view. The mainstream "how to have a good marriage" is nearly a roadmap to failure.

I kept giving up Alpha traits so she was bored and tired of having a nice stable good guy. Do more laundry and dishes, and it just makes you a very poor substitute for the maid she really wants. Then he shows her some attention and she finds a rationalization to screw him occasionally to keep the Alpha flowing.

I'm cranking up my Alpha big time. Whether it works on her or not... the prep for making her crazy for me again isn't any different from the prep I'd need to go back into the game. 

I went clothes shopping for me today with it in mind. My fitness routine has been working but my clothes haven't caught up. So I'm wearing my new 32 jeans now. She says I'll have to do something about how it highlights my package. I hope I'm doing this right!!


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Frank, you are still in the early hours of the shock of D-Day. You're going to be on a roller coaster ride for months or years, so be prepared for that. Also realize that your initial reaction is fueled by brain chemicals which are clouding your judgment with irrational optimism. There will be a downward ride coming on soon!

Don't have sex with her until you both get a complete and clean STD test. Make sure it is a complete panel for both of you. You may need to go to an STD clinic or a specialty clinic like planned parenthood. Your family doc may not be adequate due to several reasons. Require your wife to show you her printed results because there are things which cannot be tested for in men (e.g. HPV and chlamidia) and she may be positive for something you haven't yet caught such as HIV or Herpes.

Be sure the changes you are making such as from MMSL are for you, not for her. Don't do it to make yourself more attractive, do it because it makes you feel better about yourself. Be authentic.


----------



## frantark (Dec 10, 2012)

We had a tough conversation last night where she finally disclosed that the sex was unprotected. Not that I was surprised at all. I laid it pretty hard on her that the omission of mentioning they had unprotected sex goes 100% against the spirit of what we're trying to do and the next time it happens I have no choice but to leave her.

It's so ridiculously crazy how careful we were as a couple and she sleeps with some womanizing loser unprotected. Roller coaster indeed.

Thanks everyone for all of the feedback, thoughts, and reinforcement.


----------



## Kronk (Dec 8, 2012)

I can't believe you found your wife cheating and you say if it happens again you will have no option but to leave!!!
You have no option but to leave now, do you have no self respect man?


----------



## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Kronk said:


> I can't believe you found your wife cheating and you say if it happens again you will have no option but to leave!!!
> You have no option but to leave now, do you have no self respect man?


You have a valid point for sure. With no kids and no other major complications (such as a co-owned business or retirement finances) to me it is as you say no other choice but to preserve one's own self respect.

When there are decades together, kids, and lots of financial issues it does become a difficult decision. Self respect is huge. But also after all those years there is a fondness and comfort with one's spouse. Despite the betrayal, there are many positives with this person which have been built. I can see a lot of reasons to _consider_ or to _attempt_ R. Children do become a factor, though I think many of us (me included) make it too much of a factor.


----------



## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Being in R myself, 14 months out from d day, I can say with a large degree of certainty, that if we did not have kids, I would not still be here. No ****ing way.


----------



## keko (Mar 21, 2012)

Thor said:


> You have a valid point for sure. With no kids and no other major complications (such as a co-owned business or retirement finances) to me it is as you say no other choice but to preserve one's own self respect.
> 
> When there are decades together, kids, and lots of financial issues it does become a difficult decision. Self respect is huge. But also after all those years there is a fondness and comfort with one's spouse. Despite the betrayal, there are many positives with this person which have been built. I can see a lot of reasons to _consider_ or to _attempt_ R. Children do become a factor, though I think many of us (me included) make it too much of a factor.


Life is short, why waste it on "trying" to fix something that has a high probability of failing once again?

Should the kids be from a broken home or live in one?


----------



## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

frantark said:


> It's so ridiculously crazy how careful we were as a couple and she sleeps with some womanizing loser unprotected. Roller coaster indeed.


Crazy indeed...

After having our children, my wife and I were 100% on protecting against another preg. I even got a vasectomy to make sure. Then, I find out that she is having unprotected sex with her Boss who she knows has slept with many of her "friends". The risk of preg and or STD was something "I just didn't think about".

Her selfishness and desires were all that mattered.


----------



## frantark (Dec 10, 2012)

I wasn't 100% clear up above that the "next time" is a critical omission or lie and not a second affair.

She's pretty torn up right now and trying to grapple with the difference between who she thought she was and who she actually is. It will be interesting to see how that difference gets integrated.

I'm not in any rush to decide to what to do next. We've got our STD testing done and are awaiting results, she's not pregnant, she wants to talk to a therapist. 

In the meantime, I am finding myself every day. I am gradually refocusing on the things that make me happy and successful. I do think it may be a struggle initially to make this "genuine" until I'm on the path, but I feel like it's much healthier right now to be focused on me versus the outside world. It absolutely feels much less like being "in love". For having been accused of being selfish and not working as hard at marriage, I had totally given myself to it and "us" was how I viewed everything and I can see that very clearly now.

I appreciate the feedback and experiences. This is the biggest challenge I've had to go through by far and it's good to have a sounding board.


----------



## frantark (Dec 10, 2012)

A week later. STD tests are all negative. Whether I stay or go is becoming less and less defined by the affair and more about the rocks it has uncovered.

She's coming to grips and gradually out of denial that it was/remains an addiction. She refused to see it in terms of that at first, but she does recognize that all of the traits of addiction were present.

Her background unhappiness that led up and is still there is also emerging. That is painful because her feelings are valid on the one hand, but they don't rise to justification, leaving them in some limbo between "deal with it" and "things I have to change". Emotionally I feel like it's unfair that I change, as if she forfeit that opportunity. I can step back though and see that, especially from an MMSL perspective, I am going to and am already changing. It just may not be the things she expects me to change.

What the affair does define is who I/she can use as support since no one knows. We're essentially lying to the most critical people in our lives to maintain that. I wonder if it's necessary to come clean to finish mopping all of this up. I'd certainly do that if we get divorced. Why would it be good to hide it when we think otherwise we've healed?


----------



## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

frantark said:


> We had a tough conversation last night where she finally disclosed that the sex was unprotected. Not that I was surprised at all. I laid it pretty hard on her that the omission of mentioning they had unprotected sex goes 100% against the spirit of what we're trying to do and the next time it happens I have no choice but to leave her.
> 
> It's so ridiculously crazy how careful we were as a couple and she sleeps with some womanizing loser unprotected. Roller coaster indeed.
> 
> Thanks everyone for all of the feedback, thoughts, and reinforcement.


Franntark

The hits just keep a comin. But that is normal. Cheaters lie!

And continue to do so even after discovery day.

She needs consequences from you. because until she feels your pain the nonsense will not totally stop.

Have you outed her to her family? Have you aksed for their help with this situation?

There is nothing wrong with asking for their support.

I hope you realize just how broken your wife really is?

Cannot conceive? check.
Having an affair while going through adoption proceedings? check.
Having unprotected sex with a loser? check.
Continues to lie to Husband. check.

I am not listing these items to hurt you but to show you how broken she has become. You cannot fix her. Only she can do that.

And if their were issues in the marriage, well you can share them if you feel you are partially responsible.

But those problems did not force you to become emotionally attached to someone else and fall into their vagina did it?

No matter what, you are on the right track for you.

An appropriate Xmas present for her is a trip to the Dr's for a STD test. Maybe you two can double date on that one?

She needs consequences now. Share the pain with her.

Sorry for your troubles.

Because you did not ask for this problem in your marriage.

Good Luck

HM64


----------



## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

frantark said:


> A week later. STD tests are all negative. Whether I stay or go is becoming less and less defined by the affair and more about the rocks it has uncovered.
> 
> She's coming to grips and gradually out of denial that it was/remains an addiction. She refused to see it in terms of that at first, but she does recognize that all of the traits of addiction were present.
> 
> ...


Sorry our posts crossed.

Let me just add that sometimes I think it is good to come "out" to your families.

Ask for their support while you both work through these issues together.

Sometimes having family support both of you in this time of crisis can be helpful.

Sometimes not.

If you feel your family or her family would ostracize her then you keep this close to your chest.

By waiting until you Divorce if you choose that route is too late.

The choice is yours of course.

How old are you two anyway?
Have you told your wife she needs to see a good therapist?

HM64


----------



## frantark (Dec 10, 2012)

It's been awhile so I figured I would post an update.

Life has somewhat been on hold as we put everything in place... not back together, but into new places. I've really been focusing on myself and reestablishing my identity. This has gone great and I'm a better person in almost every way.

MMSL... great resource... most of it is dead on.

This has been a crappy way to have gone through what's otherwise been a positive transformation. This is a really curious point because it's tough to reconcile being better off for it happening with how horrible the trigger was. 

Stepping back and looking at all of the wreckage on the forum and my reading has greatly opened my eyes to the reality, and just how many people go through this silently while projecting the image from the outside that society expects. A real eye opener to the realities of marriage. The popular advice is junk and probably harmful more than anything else.

I wouldn't have hesitated to leave if she hadn't snapped out and been honest in the aftermath. That said... she didn't open up immediately, and I had to catch her a few times before she realized that she couldn't smooth over things to make me feel better. I don't know how long I'll keep monitoring and mentally timelining and validating.

Obviously this is all a different course of action than what was largely advised here, but I do appreciate the advice and feel like everyone's input greatly contributed to my positive outcome.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

It took me a about a year to stop the snooping. Even with in 6 months the stuff my old lady was doing really earn some trust from me. But after a year i just snooped when something odd like working late, but like I said it was odd and rare, but I did verify.

Here it is 3 years since d-day and my old lady is a different person...a better person....so that old life style she once had is long gone along with all those toxic influences.

I still check her cell but then again old habits are hard to break. I haven't looked at phone records...since hell I can't remember when. The VAR is collecting dust on my work bench and I got bored looking at he find a phone...I mean same locations day in and day out.

So good luck brother.


----------



## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Frank,

Good luck and you have a long way to go. You will find issues and how you overcome them will determine whether you can be together. I am just making you aware.


----------



## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Why are you recociling?


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

frantark said:


> I wouldn't have hesitated to leave if she hadn't snapped out and been honest in the aftermath.


----------



## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

I think its the honesty in the aftermath that makes a big difference. After all its the deciet that often hurts more the the fact that your old lady is banging some other dude.

But then a again alot of fellas can't deal with that either.


----------



## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

frantark said:


> It's been awhile so I figured I would post an update.
> 
> Life has somewhat been on hold as we put everything in place... not back together, but into new places. I've really been focusing on myself and reestablishing my identity. This has gone great and I'm a better person in almost every way.
> 
> ...


Francis,
It sounds like you're moving the ball down the field. You're right that the conventional wisdom about marriage relationships is wrong; it's based on the bogus presumption that women are "more moral" than men. As far as your course of action, every man has to choose his own. Good luck to you.


----------

