# PA vs EA, Which One Is Worse (or are they equal) In Your Opinion



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Do you view one type of affair worse than the other? I have seen some people comment across various threads that they consider emotional affairs to be worse than physical affairs, and vice versa. 

I have fortunately never had to deal with this topic, but in my mind, I view a PA worse. Aside from the implications of it being an affair, the breaking of the marriage vows (assuming the couple is married), loss of trust, etc... the cheater cared enough about you to a) possibly infect you with an STD and b) get someone (or get) pregnant. For me at least there is no going back, if it is a PA there are no ifs/and/buts, it is over immediately.

Now, on the other side, with an EA things would likely be over fairly quick. However, before I made a decision I would want to know exactly the extent of the EA (length, what information was discussed, how the communication was done, etc...). Trust is a huge thing for me so I doubt I could still be with someone I could no longer trust, but I would at least give the person a chance to explain themselves first.

Thoughts?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

For me it would depend completely on the details. If either is a sign of dissatisfaction with something that I cannot change, then it doesn't matter, the relationship ends.

If either is sort of unintentional, then I can forgive either. 

If either is a response to something I can change, then I will consider if I am willing to change it.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

I think alot of it depends on the state of your marriage to. If you have a good marriage, an EA can somehow be worked around, that's is if you both want it to happen. Real love and conquer a perceived love with someone else. A PA basically is the point of no return. 

In a bad marriage I really don't think EA or PA matters, you already know there's no love so it's the reality that your spouse actually took action and began pursuing someone else lot of times leads to the end of the marriage. There's no love nor desire to mend whatever happened so that is the point of no return.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Let's see. A drunken, one night stand. With immediate confession?

Against a 15 year EA uncovered by accident with discovered communications that show contempt for the BS?

Which would be more devastating?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

In my opinion an EA can sneak up on you as you go through your daily routines just trying to be nice to people, then the next thing you know you are enjoying the attention you get from someone a little too much to want to stop, but once you realize what is happening you can back away from it or let things get worse and destroy your marriage.

Personally I find one of the more awkward EA's to be that of a "work spouse." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_spouse because this relationship is tied to and benefits your livelihood. It is strange to think that when you spend an eight hour work day working side by side with someone, that you spend more time (awake) with a person you work with than when you go home to be with your own spouse. This is rather common, and for better or for worse couples manage to accept this as a fact of life in many marriages. 

A PA requires you to actively engage in something that you know is wrong while in a monogamous LTR or marriage. In my opinion this violates trust beyond the point of no return.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

On an EA only has the potential to be forgiven in my eyes. But it would be conditional upon her telling me before I found out and genuinely sorry and apologietic for it occurring. Also that person and circumstance would have to be changed. So for example if it was an EA with a co worker she would have to immedistely change jobs and never speak to him again for that to even be considered.

PA couldn't be forgiven for me.


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## staarz21 (Feb 6, 2013)

Completely depends on the person and the situation. Personally, I think a PA is worse. The STI/STD/pregnancy issues are what get me. 

EAs and PAs can each last just as long as the other undetected. An EA can damage trust and ruin a relationship - or even ruin the way the BS views people/the world. A PA can do the same but also lead to bringing another human being into a broken home or an STI/STD that could possibly END YOUR LIFE. You have to really dislike your spouse to risk something like that. 


Everyone is different though.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> Completely depends on the person and the situation. Personally, I think a PA is worse. *The STI/STD/pregnancy issues are what get me. *
> 
> EAs and PAs can each last just as long as the other undetected. An EA can damage trust and ruin a relationship - or even ruin the way the BS views people/the world. A PA can do the same but also lead to bringing another human being into a broken home or an STI/STD that could possibly END YOUR LIFE. You have to really dislike your spouse to risk something like that.
> 
> ...


This!


Single handly the most embarrassing moment of my life was having to get STI tested because of my X wife's affair and then the inevitable question that I had to consider if my youngest daughter was even mine. If I have any resentment still toward my X wife it's over these two issues she put me through.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Myself and husband both feel a Physical affair is worse.. due to how we view the act of sex.. that is a culminating of our passion, our entanglement.. reaching the limits in sharing ourselves with another...

We both feel the emotional should have already been established before taking anything physical.. so this would make sense.. that we feel as we do....that's the special of all specials...something you only share with someone you love, deeply desire...it's an act of emotional and physical bonding... the very deepest of betrayals to love & Cherish devoting yourselves solely to one another.... 

I remember reading in  His Needs, Her Needs: Building an Affair-Proof Marriage author Willard Harley explained , in his years of counseling, marriage therapy to countless couples... that a Physical affair is more harmful, it's a deeper wound, harder to overcome for many..this being his insight and experience ....


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I can see both sides of this...can see how both could be equally devastating depending on the circumstances.

Both are a huge betrayal of trust, one with humiliating repercussions.

Only a total scumbag could physically cheat I think...a part of them must die inside every time they lie to their spouse to skulk off to their piece. Yuck.

I can see how an EA could sneak up on you...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

frusdil said:


> Only a total scumbag could physically cheat I think...a part of them must die inside every time they lie to their spouse to skulk off to their piece. Yuck.
> 
> I can see how an EA could sneak up on you...


Total scumbag here. I could tell you a story about how a PA can sneak up on you too.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Total scumbag here. I could tell you a story about how a PA can sneak up on you too.


Oops...sorry :O


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## EunuchMonk (Jan 3, 2016)

MattMatt said:


> Let's see. A drunken, one night stand. With immediate confession?
> 
> Against *a 15 year EA* uncovered by accident with discovered communications that show contempt for the BS?
> 
> Which would be more devastating?


Do you think an EA could go that long without getting physical?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

frusdil said:


> Oops...sorry :O


No backpeddling now! You're allowed to continue to believe me to be a complete scumbag. I think it's a bit of a black and white position to take, but as a scumbag, I don't think my feelings should count. 

Are you sorry I read it? Sorry you said it out loud? Something else? 

Don't let me ride you too hard. You're just the entry point for a larger conversation.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

jb02157 said:


> In a bad marriage I really don't think EA or PA matters, you already know there's no love so it's the reality that your spouse actually took action and began pursuing someone else lot of times leads to the end of the marriage. There's no love nor desire to mend whatever happened so that is the point of no return.


There are many, many shades of gray between bad marriage and awesome marriage that create the possibility of either. A marriage does not have to be "cold out" to suffer infidelity.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

EunuchMonk said:


> Do you think an EA could go that long without getting physical?


Yes, it could.

If the OM was, for example, impotent?


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

I've wavered over this issue a lot since being married.

I voted "It depends on the details"

I think the sexual disease/unwanted pregnancy issue is what makes the PA *obviously* worse. So, I'll say PA, just on that basis.

Let's face it though; that's kind of the safe, unarguable answer that a PA is worse. And we can give that reason without exposing the other major truth why a PA is worse.

The thought of our spouse getting their brains fcked out with someone else; and enjoying it way more than they enjoy sex with us. The thought of our spouse being with someone else, and thinking how fantastically better looking they are than us.

A PA is* really* worse because it spits in the face of our sexual egos.

An EA would be extremely devastating to me right now, because that's mostly what we have left; so if, on top of the fading sex life, I found out he was pouring his heart out to someone else----not quite sure what I'd do.


@uhtred

What does this mean exactly?



> If either is sort of unintentional, then I can forgive either.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

To me a PA is worse.

The imagination of my wife talking/flirting is nothing compared to the nightmares, terror and middle of the night cold sweats thinking about them 'going at it'.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> EunuchMonk said:
> 
> 
> > Do you think an EA could go that long without getting physical?
> ...


Don't they have pills for that now?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

By "unintentional" for a PA I mean if she without planning just fell for some guy, say on a business trip. For a EA, I mean that she had no intention of getting emotionally close, it just happened. 

I wouldn't be happy about either, but I recognize that people are human and make mistakes. So I'd forgive either.

I don't expect other people to feel the same way.





notmyrealname4 said:


> I've wavered over this issue a lot since being married.
> 
> I voted "It depends on the details"
> 
> ...


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*It's not so much as to whether it's an EA or a PA!

What really matters is both the fact of, and the degree to which the related cold-hearted deception was actually carried out against the betrayed spouse!*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

To answer your question, yes, they are both worse.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Since I can't read a persons mind, all that matters to me is what a person does.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Yes, it could.
> 
> If the OM was, for example, impotent?


Then it would involve fingers and tongues?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Then it would involve fingers and tongues?


Some people wouldn't be keen on such icky stuff.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jorgegene said:


> To me a PA is worse.
> 
> The imagination of my wife talking/flirting is nothing compared to the nightmares, terror and middle of the night cold sweats thinking about them 'going at it'.


Agreed, I would never be able to be physical with my W again if a PA happened, which is why I would deem the marriage dead on the spot.


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed, I would never be able to be physical with my W again if a PA happened, which is why I would deem the marriage dead on the spot.


After reading some other comments I tend to agree...the thought of my husband, naked, with another woman and being inside her....oh god...NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!! I can't bear it...makes me physically ill....


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## tropicalbeachiwish (Jun 1, 2016)

I answered "It depends on the details". A PA is so intimate in my eyes. However, I do understand that a EA can also be intimate as well. Baring your soul to someone else has a lot of potential to eventually becoming a PA. Without a doubt to me, both a PA & EA is the end of a marriage.


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## LucasJackson (May 26, 2016)

Personally I think EA's are worse. That's a cheater giving their heart to someone else. That's the ultimate level of pain/betrayal. Sex is sex. For a lot of cheating men the PA is just masturbation using some woman's body. They literally couldn't care less about the woman. Women generally put their heart in affairs. My wife swears up and down she didn't but I have trouble believing that. Hence why I'm divorcing her.

I think EA's are worse. Just my opinion.


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

Cletus said:


> No backpeddling now! You're allowed to continue to believe me to be a complete scumbag. I think it's a bit of a black and white position to take, but as a scumbag, I don't think my feelings should count.
> 
> Are you sorry I read it? Sorry you said it out loud? Something else?
> 
> Don't let me ride you too hard. You're just the entry point for a larger conversation.


Hey she apologized. Like you said dont need to ride her too hard.

I think you are a great contributor here and seem like a good guy. Also from what I remember you have a quite LD wife that has caused a lot of pain. 

But dont let that make you feel you can go off on someone calling an adulterer a scumbag. As you said that may be a little black and white, but its not like one trips and their d!ck falls in another womans vagina. Own it.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Cletus said:


> Total scumbag here. I could tell you a story about how a PA can sneak up on you too.


I feel anytime one's emotional and physical needs are neglected.. it will cause great emotional suffering.. leading to resentment ...then we start to rationalize how it's the others fault. 

I have not lived these things.. just imagining being in others shoes though.. I don't know how some cope and hold it altogether...

I can easily see HOW & why affairs DO happen..anything near a sexless marriage --or lacking affection / caring.. devotion...it's not OK...it's very hurtful... like living in a prison... nothing to look forward to, get excited about..not feeling free to share , and rest in the others arms -would be pure hell to live with...bonding emotionally & physically is healing on so many levels... 

It's part of the air we breathe.. or long to breathe..


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

I have no forgiveness in my heart for either EA or PA.

If he loves someone else, he should be with her, not me. If he sleeps with someone else, he should be with her, not me. 

If she doesn't want him either, then that's his problem.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

frusdil said:


> Only a total scumbag could physically cheat I think... *a part of them must die inside every time they lie to their spouse to skulk off to their piece.*


Nah... In fact you made them cheat on you, you deserved it because you are so horrible, its a huge ego boost to get one over on you, it would only hurt you for you to know so they are actually doing you a favor, and they deserve to be happy even with someone else.

That's why they are SCUMBAGS.


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

Middle of Everything said:


> As you said that may be a little black and white, but its not like one trips and their d!ck falls in another womans vagina. *Own it.*


This. Sure, I can see how under certain circumstances one can suddenly realize they are a lot closer to that cliff than they realized, but a cheater still makes the decision to step off instead of turning back around and heading away from the cliff and toward their spouse..


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agreed.
Having your needs neglected over the long term is really miserable. A partner who won't say "I love you". A partner who would rather post of FB than have sex. A partner whos idea of excitement is watching a new TV show. 

If you haven't lived with these things, its difficult to understand just how tempting it is when someone offers what you need.


Its so easy to day "just leave". The real world is not so simple. There are children, financial issues. Sworn oaths, and a sense of duty. Its possible to love the person who is denying you and not want to leave them. 





SimplyAmorous said:


> I feel anytime one's emotional and physical needs are neglected.. it will cause great emotional suffering.. leading to resentment ...then we start to rationalize how it's the others fault.
> 
> I have not lived these things.. just imagining being in others shoes though.. I don't know how some cope and hold it altogether...
> 
> ...


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## Ol'Pal (Aug 24, 2015)

I think an EA is worse. You've made a connection with someone on that level besides your significant other, and developed feelings.

aside for the STD's, A PA is just physical. Getting your rocks off and going about your business. NO feelings. 

IMHO though, a lot of PA are EA before they become physical or vice sersa so then the EAPA would be worse yet.


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

I agree that PA is worse than EA. If I had a third option, I'd say the betrayal of the family unit is the worst. My exW chose to cheat on me (first EA, then PA) which was bad enough - but I'm a grown man and after a lot of time and therapy I came out the other side. The kids in the family got the worst end of the stick because they were completely abandoned by her. Instead of coming home to be a mother, she chose over and over to go out after work to be with OM and ultimately moved away completely to be someone else - leaving a trail of destruction in her wake.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Ol'Pal said:


> I think an EA is worse. You've made a connection with someone on that level besides your significant other, and developed feelings.
> 
> aside for the STD's, *A PA is just physical. Getting your rocks off and going about your business. NO feelings.
> *
> IMHO though, a lot of PA are EA before they become physical or vice sersa so then the EAPA would be worse yet.


This right here is what separates people.. it's how they LOOK at sex ! Although I have understood this for a long long time now..

It's also why I have less trust in those who easily do casual sex.. as they have learned to "compartmentalize" the physical... it means very little to them.. they can just walk away...  

Sex is not special to them, in relation to the person they are DOING...

I had a Swinger take issue with me , PMing me over one of my threads - "What I will Teach my Daughter about SEX...in relation to LOVE, her emotions, her life"... He wanted to change my thinking initially.. let me know that I didn't have to feel this way.. that for him & his wife.. that the EMOTIONAL is what ties them to each other, they only share this...it's also much harder for them.. but he could sleep with anyone!!.. 

After a time of back & forths from this man...I was open to hear all he wanted to share, to gain another perspective.. I listened to him.. he listened to me..then an amazing thing happened..

Nearing the end.. he told me he wouldn't change me, even though his experience has been very different...he could see -how strongly I feel.. that it still works in the end.. if we're with someone compatible...so that was kinda cool.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> After a time of back & forths from this man...I was open to hear all he wanted to share, to gain another perspective.. I listened to him.. he listened to me..then an amazing thing happened..


So you are a swinger now??? >

Agreed with you, how one views/treats sex would indeed impact how a PA or EA is viewed. I am sure this in part explains why I view PAs worse.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

EllisRedding said:


> So you are a swinger now??? >
> 
> Agreed with you, how one views/treats sex would indeed impact how a PA or EA is viewed. I am sure this in part explains why I view PAs worse.


Let's face it ... Romantics can NOT be swingers.. there is an ongoing "Swinger" thread here in the infidelity section...I had to agree with what was spoken....

A question was asked > *"What self-respecting person wants to watch their spouse boning or getting boned by other people?"*...

Answer - by one who swings > *"People who don't view sexual or romantic exclusivity as important to the core of their relationship." *

That certainly sums it up..


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## Emmi (Dec 11, 2015)

It fluctuates to me which is worse. But I think the essence of it is the betrayal 

When he betrayed my trust and confidence and told her about my past issues with sexuality due to child abuse

When he betrayed me and complained about me to her

When he compared me to her

When he got physical with her

When he later texted her about how hot she was doing so and so...

He never had sex with her and never had feelings for her, but he was willing to hurt and betray me this badly. And that is what hurts the most. In the early days I thought the worst part was the sharing of private information, and their friendship. Now it's the physical stuff that bothers me most, plus the texts that followed, including comparing me to her.

There are different degrees of both PAs and EAs. And it depends on how far either goes as to which is worse. Since my husband did not emotionally bond with her beond inappropriate friendship, I think now it's harder to get past the physical parts. And even though it didn't go further than kissing and touching, it still feels as bad as if it had. And I think that is because the betrayal was the same, and who knows how far it would have gone had she not been on her period.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Let's face it ... Romantics can NOT be swingers.. there is an ongoing "Swinger" thread here in the infidelity section...I had to agree with what was spoken....
> 
> A question was asked > *"What self-respecting person wants to watch their spouse boning or getting boned by other people?"*...
> 
> ...


Makes sense. IMO, in a monogamous relationship, any sort of physical intimacy is reserved solely for the couple and no one else, there is no gray area. On the emotional side, we build emotional connections with people all the time to varying degrees, so I don't see that as necessarily exclusive. Obviously though there is a point where the emotional connection goes beyond acceptable, infringes on the exclusive nature of the relationship, and moves into the EA arena.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Emmi said:


> It fluctuates to me which is worse. But I think the essence of it is the betrayal
> 
> When he betrayed my trust and confidence and told her about my past issues with sexuality due to child abuse
> 
> ...


And you believe him that they did not have sex?


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Makes sense. IMO, in a monogamous relationship, any sort of physical intimacy is reserved solely for the couple and no one else, there is no gray area*. On the emotional side, we build emotional connections with people all the time to varying degrees, so I don't see that as necessarily exclusive*. Obviously though there is a point where the emotional connection goes beyond acceptable, infringes on the exclusive nature of the relationship, and moves into the EA arena.


This is an interesting point.

There was a poster here for a while called Mr.Fist or Mr.Fisty; something like that.

I believe he had a psychology degree.

Anyway, he posted that we actually can only deeply emotionally bond with very few people. Something to do with neurons or synaptic connections, sorry I'm not articulate enough to explain it. He was very eloquent about it though.

I'm not disagreeing with you Ellis; especially if you're talking about more casual emotional bonding. But I do think it's interesting that bonding deeply with an affair partner *can* impact your ability (on a physical, brain level) to have deeper connections with your spouse.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> This is an interesting point.
> 
> There was a poster here for a while called Mr.Fist or Mr.Fisty; something like that.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I think it was Mr Fisty (I feel dirt for even typing his name lol)

On the emotional side, I am thinking about the various levels (so from the very basic casual bonding to somewhere along the lines of a close friend and ultimately to that deep emotional bond). That is where the grey area comes into play (and why it is something that I can at least see sneaking up on you), as there are various levels as I see it (vs a PA where for me it is black and white).

That is fascinating though if a deep connection with one person could impact your ability to have/maintain a deep connection with another. I wonder as well, how much hormones come into play. For example, the hormones running around your body when you meet someone new, the thrill of doing something you shouldn't, etc... does that allow you to build a deeper connection quicker with the other person (and since those hormones wouldn't really be present for your current SO, it is easier to disregard the connection you may have already built).


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> Some people wouldn't be keen on such icky stuff.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That's geneally not the case with affairs. The fantasy pushes them to go farther than normal.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

What's worse?

Being stabbed to death

Being shot to death

If they desire to be with someone else emotionally so much that the lie to you in order to do so how can you trust them?

How can you trust that it was just an EA?

Neither are acceptable.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Speaking somewhat generally, I'd say that a PA would be worse than an EA. Most guys would probably agree.

It's a very subjective thing, though, so it makes sense that others would see it differently.

What I can tell you is this -- had either of my wife's EAs been a PA, she'd now be my ex-wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Which is worse?

Wife has PA. Admits and begs for forgiveness.

Wife has EA. Denies, blameshifts, rugseeps.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Ceegee said:


> Which is worse?
> 
> Wife has PA. Admits and begs for forgiveness.
> 
> Wife has EA. Denies, blameshifts, rugseeps.


Either would result in divorce (for me), but I can see how someone would view the latter as being worse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

EunuchMonk said:


> Do you think an EA could go that long without getting physical?


Not if there is any sort of regular physical proximity.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

I can't say with certainty that one would be worse than the other. At one time, I said PA is worse. Then I said EA. Really, I think it depends on different factors. I used to say any kind of cheating and I would leave. Pretty sure he said the same thing. I can't say his position has changed, much, at least regarding PA, anyway. But, I can honestly say I don't know, now, if it would be the end of our marriage. The more I read here, I think we would manage to work things out... but I don't know. I hope we never have to find out, though. 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## rafaelandy (May 8, 2013)

in MY opinion, as a man - generally speaking, PA is worse than EA.

in an EA, there is STILL the possibility that the WS is not "fully" aware that what they are doing is wrong. they may have a feeling that there's something not right, but in their mind they are "still in control" of the situation...they haven't "crossed the line" yet. they are just "being friendly". 

in a PA - the WS IS FULLY AWARE that it is wrong. they are "fully aware" of the seriousness and terrible consequences...and yet they do it. they consciously "cross the line". the WS KNOWS he / she is DESTROYING their marriage. irregardless how the WS views sex, i think they know 100% that going physical is a harmful DECISION.

plus the possibility of getting pregnant (with or without precautions), STDs, etc., a physical affair is something MOST men will not forgive. it cuts to core of their "manhood" - their wife is (subconsciuosly?) willing to bear another man's child by having sex. i know some guys here will "understand" what i'm talking about. (it's a "man thing").

i might have forgiven my WW if she committed once or twice of an EA, but once she did a PA - i'm out.

this is just my opinion, guys...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

frusdil said:


> After reading some other comments I tend to agree...the thought of my husband, naked, with another woman and being inside her....oh god...NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!! I can't bear it...makes me physically ill....


One other thought as well building off of what @frusdil posted, with a PA your mind goes wild picturing your SO having sex with another person. With an EA I don't really see it being the same, picturing your SO having sex is much different IMO then picturing your SO texting or on internet forums lol.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Either way, if my spouse did not want to be with me because someone else made him happier, I think he should go be with her. 

If you love your spouse and want the best for them, how could you deny them that?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> Either way, if my spouse did not want to be with me because someone else made him happier, I think he should go be with her.
> 
> If you love your spouse and want the best for them, how could you deny them that?


I think that brings up a different question though, for those who cheat, are they doing it to be with someone who truly makes them happy, or are they just doing it to get a fix over something in their current relationship that doesn't meet their needs? It seems like quite a few people whom I have read about want to remain with their SO, so this would indicate that the person they cheated with wasn't for the sake of giving themselves a lifetime of happiness.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I think that brings up a different question though, for those who cheat, are they doing it to be with someone who truly makes them happy, or are they just doing it to get a fix over something in their current relationship that doesn't meet their needs? It seems like quite a few people whom I have read about want to remain with their SO, so this would indicate that the person they cheated with wasn't for the sake of giving themselves a lifetime of happiness.


I suppose if they leave their spouse, it is for overall greater happiness with the new person. If it is just to fill in some ******, then yes, it probably remains an affair.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

I think for the most part men are able to separate physical and emotional but women not so much. That's why there are more men going to prostitutes then women going to male-prostitutes.

Perhaps not always but generally, women having PA is also involved emotionally.


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## CatJayBird (Oct 5, 2015)

WOW.....are you in my google search history? I was just researching these two things the other day....freaky.

I mostly wonder what turns an EA into a PA? Kissing, making out, sex? I guess it differs individually.....just like how we all see which one is worse....

My head is so conflicted right now...I honestly cannot say which one I think would be worse...Probably PA if PIV sex was involved.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

CatJayBird said:


> WOW.....are you in my google search history? I was just researching these two things the other day....freaky.
> 
> I mostly wonder what turns an EA into a PA? Kissing, making out, sex? I guess it differs individually.....just like how we all see which one is worse....
> 
> My head is so conflicted right now...I honestly cannot say which one I think would be worse...Probably PA if PIV sex was involved.


Maybe, I have been doing a lot of research lately on this new species of Cat/Jaybird...

It is a very interesting topic. I wonder how many people focus so much on PAs as being the only means of cheating that they don't take an EA seriously (i.e. it didn't get physical, so what is the big deal)...


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## imtamnew (May 13, 2013)

The title should be, do you want be kicked in the left or the right nut.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

All an EA is, is a PA in the making. If you're having an EA, you WANT to have a PA. As far as I'm concerned, they're equally horrific things to do to someone.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Hope1964 said:


> All an EA is, is a PA in the making. If you're having an EA, you WANT to have a PA. As far as I'm concerned, they're equally horrific things to do to someone.


For the most part, yes. But to be clear, it isn't that they would have a PA with just anyone willing, either... even if they found the potential AP attractive. Some feel "safe" with an EA because they know there is no chance to meet. They have the opportunity with others in proximity but choose to NOT engage. So, I agree that in general it is just a precursor to a PA, but that PA would have to be with that specific EA.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Maricha75 said:


> For the most part, yes. But to be clear, it isn't that they would have a PA with just anyone willing, either... even if they found the potential AP attractive.* Some feel "safe" with an EA because they know there is no chance to meet.* They have the opportunity with others in proximity but choose to NOT engage. So, I agree that in general it is just a precursor to a PA, but that PA would have to be with that specific EA.
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


Agreed, and on the bolded, I think that could be the rationale used to convince themselves that they are doing nothing wrong,


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Maricha75 said:


> it isn't that they would have a PA with just anyone willing


No - although most people who have a PA wouldn't have one with just anyone willing either.

To be clear, having an EA means that you WANT to have a PA, not that you WILL have a PA. Some people think that without the actual physical deed, you haven't done anything wrong. But wasn't it God that said that if you lust after another mans wife in your heart, you have committed adultery? My thinking is along those lines I guess


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> To be clear, having an EA means that you WANT to have a PA, not that you WILL have a PA.




Not true in many cases. . At least in my case 

I did not ask for or want the feelings. I tried to overcome them and failed. I did not yet have TAM or anything else as a resource. 

My crime is the actions i did afterwards not the actions leading up to my feelings. 

I don't why people make absolute statements, especially when they have not been through the topic they are speaking about, but I will save that comment for the other thread.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Having a feeling does not equal having an EA. At least in MY mind. In order to have an affair - EA or PA - it requires active participation. If all you have are feelings of attraction, and you take steps to ensure the attraction cannot lead to anything more, then you haven't had an EA. Those steps would include but not be limited to acknowledging them to your spouse if you think they are or could become a problem to you.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> No - although most people who have a PA wouldn't have one with just anyone willing either.
> 
> To be clear, having an EA means that you WANT to have a PA, not that you WILL have a PA. Some people think that without the actual physical deed, you haven't done anything wrong. But wasn't it God that said that if you lust after another mans wife in your heart, you have committed adultery? My thinking is along those lines I guess


Well technically not God, it was Jesus, but that is close enough.

And that gets to the important measure for me, the heart. Sadly I can't see others heart's clearly, so it all gets murky and uncertain. TAM (and life) would be such a different place if we could see each others hearts.

An unplanned drunken one night stand might be forgiveable. If they woke up in a strange bed, can't remember the last 12 hours, came running home, begged forgiveness, ... . But my wife doesn't drink more than a sip of alcohol, so if she got that drunk I would still wonder if it was planned anyway.

And I think anyone saying "well we didn't do PIV, so I did nothing wrong", has just earned 10 black marks to add to whatever happened in the affair (EA or PA). That sounds like they have written themselves an escape clause allowing their heart to emotionally exit the marriage. If they want out then they can have out.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

NotEasy said:


> An unplanned drunken one night stand might be forgiveable. If they woke up in a strange bed, can't remember the last 12 hours, came running home, begged forgiveness, ... . But my wife doesn't drink more than a sip of alcohol, so if she got that drunk I would still wonder if it was planned anyway.


Same here. My W very rarely drinks and doesn't drink to get drunk. Also, this would still bring up the question, why was she even in the position in the first place where she would end up alone with another guy? These two things would come across to me as being planned given how I know my W is otherwise, so it wouldn't be a forgivable act.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

When people cheat, I think they need to ask themselves if reconciliation is really a good idea. They obviously were not satisfied in the marriage, or they would not have cheated to start with. 

Getting a divorce might be the best idea. Then there is no obligation on either end. And if they both feel inspired to try again, it is with a clean slate and no expectations/obligations.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> When people cheat, I think they need to ask themselves if reconciliation is really a good idea. They obviously were not satisfied in the marriage, or they would not have cheated to start with.
> 
> Getting a divorce might be the best idea. Then there is no obligation on either end. And if they both feel inspired to try again, it is with a clean slate and no expectations/obligations.


Going back to a point you brought up in another thread, how do you think you would react if your H cheated, and if so, would it make a difference whether it was a PA or EA? Now assume though he didn't do it b/c he thinks he would be happy with the other person, he still wants to be with you.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Going back to a point you brought up in another thread, how do you think you would react if your H cheated, and if so, would it make a difference whether it was a PA or EA? Now assume though he didn't do it b/c he thinks he would be happy with the other person, he still wants to be with you.


If he finds someone else who makes him happier, he should be with her. EA or PA, I would obviously not have been meeting his needs anymore. That is why he would be cheating.

It would make no sense for him to still be with me, and I would tell him that. He should be with the one who is best for him. When you love someone, you want the best for them.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

PA is bad especially if there's lies.
EA is really bad as it totally undercuts the other person.

But the REAL trouble is the length of time involve, and circumstances. A wild night big party everyone got carried away...oops. (big oops) ... but vs 2-5 years of plotting, lying, taking (financial and emotional) support and energy from your open relationship to sneak it on the sly to the Affair partner, while deliberately covering it up the whole time, with no respect for the other partners feelings. That's the big bad.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> If he finds someone else who makes him happier, he should be with her. EA or PA, I would obviously not have been meeting his needs anymore. That is why he would be cheating.
> 
> It would make no sense for him to still be with me, and I would tell him that. He should be with the one who is best for him. When you love someone, you want the best for them.


Ok, so in your view a PA or EA is an automatic relationship killer since you have to assume if someone cheats (whether or not the other person makes them happy) there is some need that is not being met in tbe current relationship? 

Is there a scenario where you don't see this being the case?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

jld said:


> When people cheat, I think they need to ask themselves if reconciliation is really a good idea. They obviously were not satisfied in the marriage, or they would not have cheated to start with.
> 
> 
> 
> Getting a divorce might be the best idea. Then there is no obligation on either end. And if they both feel inspired to try again, it is with a clean slate and no expectations/obligations.




Maybe they are not satisfied with the marriage AT THAT TIME but it does not mean the marriage cannot be fixed. 

Divorce is not always the answer. I bet if Gottman knew what he does now he probably would not have divorced the first two times but could have fixed his marriages.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

jld said:


> If he finds someone else who makes him happier, he should be with her. EA or PA, I would obviously not have been meeting his needs anymore. That is why he would be cheating.


Agreed



jld said:


> It would make no sense for him to still be with me, and I would tell him that. He should be with the one who is best for him. When you love someone, you want the best for them.


I think the logic for cheaters is they weren't choosing another over you, they wanted both the stable marriage and a little secret affair. Then when the affair is found out, they say the affair was only their 2nd best choice and now is behind them. Imagine they decide the marriage is their best choice. 
So in a case like this, what would your answer be?

To be honest, I don't know what my answer would be.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Ok, so in your view a PA or EA is an automatic relationship killer since you have to assume if someone cheats (whether or not the other person makes them happy) there is some need that is not being met in tbe current relationship?
> 
> Is there a scenario where you don't see this being the case?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not really. Even in the case of serial cheaters or same sex cheating, it is because their needs are not getting met in the original relationship.

Not that that is anyone's fault, btw. They just have the needs they have. That is the reality.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> Maybe they are not satisfied with the marriage AT THAT TIME but it does not mean the marriage cannot be fixed.
> 
> Divorce is not always the answer. I bet if Gottman knew what he does now he probably would not have divorced the first two times but could have fixed his marriages.


That is a good question. I do not know the details of his first two marriages, nor how he sees them today.

If the needs can start being met, the marriage might be able to be saved. I think there are other factors, too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

NotEasy said:


> I think the logic for cheaters is they weren't choosing another over you, they wanted both the stable marriage and a little secret affair. Then when the affair is found out, they say the affair was only their 2nd best choice and now is behind them. Imagine they decide the marriage is their best choice.
> So in a case like this, what would your answer be?
> 
> To be honest, I don't know what my answer would be.


Well, actions speak louder than words, right? If they engaged in the affair, I think they wanted the affair partner more, at least temporarily, than they wanted the spouse. Otherwise they would have stuck with just the spouse.

I think it is a complete lie when the WSs disavow the affair partner or say it did not mean anything or other nonsense to appease the BS or assuage their own conscience. It meant something, even if just fleeting sexual pleasure, or they would not have done it.

People lie to themselves or their partners under pressure. I wish the BSs could hear the truth instead of needing to be reassured. That would help cut down on the lying.

Automatic divorce after infidelity could help with that, too. It could put some pressure, but also create some space, for spouses to be honest with themselves, instead of protecting their own or their partner's feelings and fragile egos.

Another, more radical idea, would be to be legally forced to declare the affair partner a second spouse. 

LOL. That might do more to prevent affairs than anything--being forced to take on responsibility for a second spouse the rest of their lives.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

KillerClown said:


> *I think for the most part men are able to separate physical and emotional but women not so much. That's why there are more men going to prostitutes then women going to male-prostitutes.
> 
> Perhaps not always but generally, women having PA is also involved emotionally.*


This is surely true for me.. though not so sure you'd get many feminists to agree... since they feel we're wired all the same.. even my husband isn't like the average male...

I once seen a post here comparing how much of sex is emotional and how much physical.. so I asked my husband how he feels.. he answered *70%* *emotional* and *30%* *physical*..he's surely a "sensual lover".. the emotional component & "bonding' is very important to him.. he's always been this way.. if we were fighting, and I was in the mood...we'd have to make up, or he couldn't do it!

He's probably in the minority- when it comes to men....so we can all vary..

These articles greatly resonate with me.. 

The Truth Behind Why Women Find It Harder To Have Casual Sex Than Men Do ... 

Sex and Emotional Attachment


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

There was an article just posted about the age people are most likely to cheat

http://www.maxim.com/news/most-popular-ages-to-cheat-2016-8



> Apparently, people mainly cheat on their partners when their age ends with a nine, so that’s 29; 39; 49, etc., which means they’re at the end of a decade of their life.





> he most popular age to cheat was found to be 39, followed by 49, then 29. Considering 40 is sort of the halfway point for most of us, I repeat, cheating at those specified ages is probably a petty psychological defense mechanism.


39 does make sense. Figure, you are probably in the thick of things between marriage and kids, so there is a lot that could go wrong.

Based on this, I better cheap a close eye on my W over the next few years (and I guess same would go for her watching me lol)


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is surely true for me.. though not so sure you'd get many feminists to agree... since they feel we're wired all the same.. even my husband isn't like the average male...
> 
> I once seen a post here comparing how much of sex is emotional and how much physical.. so I asked my husband how he feels.. he answered *70%* *emotional* and *30%* *physical*..he's surely a "sensual lover".. the emotional component & "bonding' is very important to him.. he's alwayse been this way.. if we were fighting, and I was in the mood...we'd have to make up, or he couldn't do it!
> 
> ...


I don't think so I would say he is in the majority the only difference being he is trusting enough of you to tell the truth. I have always believed that sex is a great emotional flood way for men who are in Love with their partners. We have no other real way to connect on a deep an intimate level. I also believe the more stoic and less "heart on a sleeve " a guy is the more narrow focused he is on how he can be truely intimate with his partner.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> There was an article just posted about the age people are most likely to cheat
> 
> http://www.maxim.com/news/most-popular-ages-to-cheat-2016-8
> 
> ...


It's interesting and I think kind of correct. My X cheated early, 36, but most of my other friends started getting divorced around that 38/39 mark. Might actually be some logic to that.

Heck even when you go online dating you see groupings of people in their early and then again late 20's, 30's , 40's but very little in the middle decade .


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

jld said:


> Well, actions speak louder than words, right? If they engaged in the affair, *I think they wanted the affair partner more, *at least temporarily, than they wanted the spouse. Otherwise they would have stuck with just the spouse.
> 
> I think it is a complete lie when the WSs disavow the affair partner or say it did not mean anything or other nonsense to appease the BS or assuage their own conscience. It meant something, even if just fleeting sexual pleasure, or they would not have done it.
> 
> People lie to themselves or their partners under pressure. I wish the BSs could hear the truth instead of needing to be reassured. That would help cut down on the lying.


We all know that there are varying degrees to affairs. There is the full blown "I am leaving you for him" affair to the much more common cake eating affair. IMO most WSs here, the remorseful ones, never saw it as a Either-OR affair. It is not necessary to want the affair partner MORE than the spouse to engage in the affair. The affair fills in a gap or need for the WS. It might be physical or emotional, and that does not mean the WS will or wants to leave the spouse.

Isn't it true that most male WSs won't leave the marriage for the AP?

I agree with you. It ALWAYS meant something.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> We all know that there are varying degrees to affairs. There is the full blown "I am leaving you for him" affair to the much more common cake eating affair. IMO most WSs here, the remorseful ones, never saw it as a Either-OR affair. It is not necessary to want the affair partner MORE than the spouse to engage in the affair. The affair fills in a gap or need for the WS. It might be physical or emotional, and that does not mean the WS will or wants to leave the spouse.
> 
> Isn't it true that most male WSs won't leave the marriage for the AP?
> 
> I agree with you. It ALWAYS meant something.


They wanted the affair partner more than they wanted a solitary life with the spouse. Otherwise they would not have done it.

If the BS could come to terms with the fact that their spouse could love two people, and the WS could admit it to themselves, I think we could have more mature reactions to affairs. That does not mean that affairs would or even could be ongoing. But we need people to get real, and stop lying to themselves to protect feelings and egos.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> They wanted the affair partner more than they wanted a solitary life with the spouse. Otherwise they would not have done it.


 but I don't think this is always true.. some have affairs loving their spouse.. wanting to be with them more than anything in the world.. but maybe they don't like sex or something (personally my love would turn to hate)... but it seems many say this on the forum...so therefore it's more of a physical / emotional VOID they are trying to fill - to cope)... there is not always love in affairs.. some people just really miss the SEX....



> If the BS could come to terms with the fact that their spouse could love two people, and the WS could admit it to themselves, I think we could have more mature reactions to affairs. That does not mean that affairs would or even could be ongoing. But we need people to get real, and stop lying to themselves to protect feelings and egos.


 There will always be a grand scale of emotion around trusting someone's faithfulness to us.. then being hit with blindsiding betrayal.. .. I guess we'd all be better off to "NOT FEEL"..... but also wouldn't this render our Highs.. not very HIGH.. it's nothing something I can understand.

If my husband wanted another woman... I'd be devastated .... I'd be highly emotional ... I'd take it very personally, that I wasn't enough (that's a tremendous blow of rejection)... I'd initially want to take his balls off.. it wouldn't be pretty.. and I'd loose my rational self for a time.. this reaction I would understand... not a calm one. Though True.. I'd want the raw truth so I'd not be fooling myself..


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> but I don't think this is always true.. some have affairs loving their spouse.. wanting to be with them more than anything in the world.. but maybe they don't like sex or something (personally my love would turn to hate)... but it seems many say this on the forum...so therefore it's more of a physical / emotional VOID they are trying to fill - to cope)... there is not always love in affairs.. some people just really miss the SEX....


Oh, I don't think having an affair necessarily means they do not love their spouse anymore. But they do not find enough satisfaction with the spouse alone. That is why they added the affair partner. They wanted the affair partner in their life more than they wanted their life without the affair partner, the life with just their spouse.



> There will always be a grand scale of emotion around trusting someone's faithfulness to us.. then being hit with blindsiding betrayal.. .. I guess we'd all be better off to "NOT FEEL"..... but also wouldn't this render our Highs.. not very HIGH.. it's nothing something I can understand.
> 
> If my husband wanted another woman... I'd be devastated .... I'd be highly emotional ... I'd take it very personally, that I wasn't enough (that's a tremendous blow of rejection)... I'd initially want to take his balls off.. it wouldn't be pretty.. and I'd loose my rational self for a time.. this reaction I would understand... not a calm one. Though True.. I'd want the raw truth so I'd not be fooling myself..


I don't think we can get around the initial emotional reaction. But we have to be able to hear the truth, too, if we are adults.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I'd initially want to take his balls off.


That is a good deterrent. Does your husband know this? :|


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> *Oh, I don't think having an affair necessarily means they do not love their spouse anymore. But they do not find enough satisfaction with the spouse alone. That is why they added the affair partner. They wanted the affair partner in their life more than they wanted their life without the affair partner, the life with just their spouse.*


 We can't argue this one.. if our spouse was ENOUGH for us...if we are fulfilled.. we surely wouldn't be falling into the arms of someone else ....

There was a thread here not long ago.. entitled http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/339481-sex-bottom-line.html ... personally I feel it's a HUGE part of a happy satisfying marriage..I tried to lay this out in Post #291 HERE  ...so I in fact answered it was like an "end all" for me.. but ya know we're all different.. 

People have affairs over many things... its not just sex.. it could be a communication break down, fighting all the time, tearing each other apart..etc etc... Any time the intimacy has been been broken down, it leaves us vulnerable...weak, feeling alone.. we HAVE TO COME TOGETHER again and fix it ..find our peace with each other...

I CAN understand why people fall into affairs - when it reaches this point... what I can't understand is why they aren't angry as sin, and resentful that their needs aren't being met.. how does love survive this.. it takes a beating..it becomes tainted...it has to..

To stay in some of these marriages surely borders "co-dependency" even...maybe more a matter of .... they know they can't leave (don't want to break up the family, messy divorce, etc etc)..so they stay...convince themselves to hang on, make the best of it..but at some point. the weakness becomes too much.. and they fall.. 

My thoughts would be.. "I could have loved you forever.. but you destroyed it , by pushing me away time & time & time again [email protected]#"

I'm not the unconditional lover type.. I need the give & take, the reciprocal sharing... or it's gonna slowly die ... (that's honest)..



> *I don't think we can get around the initial emotional reaction. But we have to be able to hear the truth, too, if we are adults.*


 Can you give an example of what you mean jld... just curious is all.. so you think many are dancing around the truth -as to not further hurt the others feelings.. (meaning mostly when they remain together ?) after an EA or PA?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> We can't argue this one.. if our spouse was ENOUGH for us...if we are fulfilled.. we surely wouldn't be falling into the arms of someone else ....
> 
> There was a thread here not long ago.. entitled http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/339481-sex-bottom-line.html ... personally I feel it's a HUGE part of a happy satisfying marriage..I tried to lay this out in Post #291 HERE  ...so I in fact answered it was like an "end all" for me.. but ya know we're all different..
> 
> ...


I think there is a lot of shaming and blaming and pressure on the WS to repress and deny after an affair. It would take a very mature BS to be able to hear about why a WS cheated. Who wants to hear about the void the AP filled? Who wants to hear a WS speak with shiny, passion-filled eyes about their lover? How many WSs could ever be calm and empathetic enough, when they are feeling so betrayed, to hear all that?

And if the WS comes to CWI, it is just going to be beating after beating, shaming after shaming, about how bad they were to have done it, and what a blameless, pure victim the BS is. And those vulnerable WSs are likely to internalize all that. You can see some of them here. Completely indoctrinated. And then, sometimes later, like religious converts, beating on the new WSs.

The reality is that most people can love more than one person in their lives, can feel attracted to many people. I am not saying that affairs are right. I don't. But I hardly think they are shocking. And I don't think shaming and blaming is the way to deal with them. Looking very honestly and pridelessly at why they happened, and if it is realistic that they can be prevented from happening again, and how, is.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> The reality is that most people can love more than one person in their lives, can feel attracted to many people. I am not saying that affairs are right. I don't. But I hardly think they are shocking. And I don't think shaming and blaming is the way to deal with them. Looking very honestly and pridelessly at why they happened, and if it is realistic that they can be prevented from happening again, and how, is.


I don't find them shocking either.. though I don't think that speaks too well of our world.... I'd much prefer a world where people were more faithful and true..less lying, hiding.. more accountability for our actions.. more remorse.. more humility.. 

I am big on Prevention...should be more spoken on compatibility with our young people today.. over all this hoopla about success and ambition..."he'd be a good catch".... it's so much more than that - covering a myriad of issues that could make or break a couple down the road.....

I do feel shame has it's place.. but we shouldn't get stuck there, this is no good for anyone.... it needs to move to Guilt.. then into "action" to DO the right thing, in relation to ourselves, the one we betrayed, our kids.... as best we can in any given situation.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I don't find them shocking either.. though I don't think that speaks too well of our world.... I'd much prefer a world where people were more faithful and true..less lying, hiding.. more accountability for our actions.. more remorse.. more humility..
> 
> I am big on Prevention...should be more spoken on compatibility with our young people today.. over all this hoopla about success and ambition..."he'd be a good catch".... it's so much more than that - covering a myriad of issues that could make or break a couple down the road.....
> 
> I do feel shame has it's place.. but we shouldn't get stuck there, this is no good for anyone.... it needs to move to Guilt.. then into "action" to DO the right thing, in relation to ourselves, the one we betrayed, our kids.... as best we can in any given situation.


What if the couple were not naturally compatible in the first place? Do they need to be shamed? Or would gently pointing out that the affair is basically the outcome of that incompatible pairing be enough?


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Here we go again with the BS blaming bullsh!t.

Telling all BS's that THEY could have prevented their partner from cheating?? BULL. This is exactly what I meant when I said last week that some of the advice you give on here is harmful, jld.

I've said it before and I will keep saying it: There are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS going on when someone cheats.
1) There's the state of the marriage. If it sucks, that's on BOTH partners.
2) There's the cheating. If you cheat, that is 100% on YOU. Cheating is ONE CHOICE of many available to people whose marriages suck.

Unless the BS knocks the WS over the head and sticks the penis into the vagina, (or in the case of an EA, forced the WS to act on their feelings) they had nothing to do with the cheaters decision to cheat. The cheater decided that was their way to deal with a bad marriage - that's bullsh!t and it's a decision THEY made.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Hope1964 said:


> Here we go again with the BS blaming bullsh!t.
> 
> Telling all BS's that THEY could have prevented their partner from cheating?? BULL. This is exactly what I meant when I said last week that some of the advice you give on here is harmful, jld.
> 
> ...


The way I view it, if the BS wants to look at what went wrong with the marriage for the purpose of future relationships, that is fine (your option #1). However, since I believe PA/EA ends the relationship the moment it happens, I feel that BS does not have any obligation to show any empathy towards the cheater or take any responsibility for the actual cheating (Option #2). Anyone who thinks having an affair will someone save the relationship, well, they deserve zero empathy (IMO).


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Ok It's official now. The PA is worse than the EA.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

I don't think one can compare the intensities of EA vs PA. That is, a mild or short EA is nothing like a mild/short PA (perhaps a drunken ONS). A long term EA is nothing like a long term PA.

To me, I can't see a way to say one is better or worse than the other. But a mild infidelity is potentially recoverable whereas anything with a long duration or high intensity is not, at least in my view.

If we use a typical EA vs a typical PA, I would find a PA much harder to forget or forgive. An EA there is some possibility the cheater has a total change of heart and now dislikes their AP and they have learned about what went wrong inside to let them get to that point. IOW, it may be possible to completely un-do the EA. Just like we feel about some of our own ex-flames when we weren't cheating. We loved them but now we have zero interest in them and we have no desire to cheat on our spouse with the ex or anyone else. 

But a PA cannot be un-done. The cheater may learn about their own deficient thinking which led to it, but the sex acts cannot be un-done. The BS has to not only learn to trust the cheater but to overcome the sex acts. The sex is too big of a betrayal to me.


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