# No sex in 4 months



## spruce_goose (May 12, 2011)

Hi All: posting because my wife and I have not had sex in 4 months. I just need advice on how to play this game. I’ll be up front to say both of us are attractive people, but I am sick of asking (almost begging) for her to do it. I know I am guilty of some things like being over affectionate but it still feels like she never wants to do it! How should I play this? She never initiates, ever. I feel like if I didn’t ask her it would never happen!


----------



## Volunteer86 (Aug 2, 2017)

Is this the first time that it has happened? Also how has your sex been in the past?


----------



## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Better to start looking to be sure she isn't ready to step outside the marriage.

Either way - get honest with her - tell her straight up "you're my wife and I expect we will have sex on a regular basis... and if you won't - I expect to have permission to get it from someone who wants to". 

Take charge! She's selfish!


How long have you been married?


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Read - Married Man's Sex Life Primer


----------



## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Hi Spruce, certainly know how that can feel.

As Volunteer says, how have things been in the past? Is this a sudden change or has it always been a struggle to get her into bed? How long have you guys been together? Kids in the picture which can be a drain on energy?

While it’s not universally true, I’ve learnt from this forum that there are many women who will simply never initiate and expect you to take care of that side of the marriage. So you shouldn’t necessarily take any offence from it.

However sounds like you are getting sucked into the trap of being too nice to your wife which can actually kill her attraction to you. Hard to tell without more info.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spruce_goose (May 12, 2011)

GreenOrb, you are closest to understanding my situation. She is a grade 7 teacher, and we do have kids, and she’s tired a lot, but she has never made sex a priority after our last kid. I agree about the initiating. She’s very conservative (not politically, but you know what I mean- that’s why I don’t think an affair is the issue) so that doesn’t surprise me. I help her out as much I can around the house. I just want to know how I can play this...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Spruce,
You won’t make any headway without providing a fairly clear picture of your entire situation. 

You can easily make your specifics anonymous. Shift the kids ages a year up or down, tweak the mechanics of life a bit and like magic, no one can ever map back to you. 

But you will make no progress, without talking about your marital dynamic. And not just a passing comment about being physically clingy. 

The trouble with many sexless situations is that the person being rejected is spending more time protecting their ego, than they are figuring out why they are being rejected. 




spruce_goose said:


> GreenOrb, you are closest to understanding my situation. She is a grade 7 teacher, and we do have kids, and she’s tired a lot, but she has never made sex a priority after our last kid. I agree about the initiating. She’s very conservative (not politically, but you know what I mean- that’s why I don’t think an affair is the issue) so that doesn’t surprise me. I help her out as much I can around the house. I just want to know how I can play this...


----------



## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

Spruce
What MEM said. Lack of sex usually goes to the very heart of a relationship. If your wife isn’t putting out then it’s probable she isn’t getting something she needs from you.

It took me a thread of over 600 posts to start to figure it out so give as much info as you can and you might get some help here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## spruce_goose (May 12, 2011)

Basically what I told you about her- kids, work, tired. Sex and me are not a priority. But I do know she finds confidence attractive, and she hates whiny complaining. When I landed her first when we were dating, It was patience and had to play it extremely cool, and give her the sense I wasn’t interested. That’s why after 14 years together I’m guessing her basic mechanics is still in there somewhere...just need practical advice how to get her to make her feel that way again. Just thinking if I made myself ‘less available’ (I know it sounds strange in a marriage). Less affection, less touchy-feely, more time being busy, etc...do you get my thinking?


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

spruce_goose said:


> Basically what I told you about her- kids, work, tired. Sex and me are not a priority. But I do know she finds confidence attractive, and she hates whiny complaining. When I landed her first when we were dating, It was patience and had to play it extremely cool, and give her the sense I wasn’t interested. That’s why after 14 years together I’m guessing her basic mechanics is still in there somewhere...just need practical advice how to get her to make her feel that way again. Just thinking if I made myself ‘less available’ (I know it sounds strange in a marriage). Less affection, less touchy-feely, more time being busy, etc...do you get my thinking?


It's not making yourself less available to her, but rather making yourself a priority to you instead of making her your priority. Men that have a mission/goals in life and are working towards achieving them are highly attractive to women. Whereas men who focus their attention on keeping their spouse happy tend to be far less attractive to women. If this was a sudden change then I'd question an affair, and while that is still possible (trust me), it is less likely. Read the book I suggested above and see if that applies to you.


----------



## cc48kel (Apr 5, 2017)

Even teachers have affairs.. No harm with checking things out just to make sure. Then yes, start focusing more on you and kids. Don't dote on her as much, stay busy, talk with neighbors and friends, etc... She knows what you want, perhaps she'll miss you being there for her.


----------



## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

I found that work and kids were the best road to exhaustion. What we did, is we sent up a signal flare to both sets of parents. (We were lucky in that they lived around the corner.) Then, once the kids were settled away for a weekend of overindulgence in junk food, and adventures with gramps, (my FIL was a character, and he would take them on sales calls) we would take off for a dirty weekend out of town. A nice hotel room, a good restaurant, wine, pleasant adult conversation and use/overuse of a bed we did not have to make. We made it a firm rule that for every vacation with the kids, there was one for just us. My parents and her parents were no problem, my mother was apt to just grab the kids and wave bye, as she shut the door.

Even if you need a sitter, and take a night away, that should spark things up. Make plans, and be the man, make the reservations, get the timing right, and just go. In my experience the rewards are good.


----------



## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

SG,

Schools are breeding grounds for affairs, at least when I went to school and what I hear from people still in the field.

It could be an emotional affair, a "special" someone who your W sees every day or who texts her alot, once someone is in an emotional affair they often lose all passion for their spouse. You will likely find out by checking her phone, one number might stand out.

Does she guard her phone or has she said "I love you but am not in love with you"?

Tamat


----------



## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

spruce_goose said:


> GreenOrb, you are closest to understanding my situation. She is a grade 7 teacher, and we do have kids, and she’s tired a lot, but she has never made sex a priority after our last kid. I agree about the initiating. She’s very conservative (not politically, but you know what I mean- that’s why I don’t think an affair is the issue) so that doesn’t surprise me. I help her out as much I can around the house. I just want to know how I can play this...


Be honest. Be upfront!

Sit her down and tell her what you require to be happily married.

Either she agrees or not.

If she doesn't - you know her intentions and can make a decision from there.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Your wife isn’t too tired for sex. She’s actively avoiding it. Four months is a LONG time. Note the amount of energy she has for stuff she WANTS to do. 





spruce_goose said:


> Basically what I told you about her- kids, work, tired. Sex and me are not a priority. But I do know she finds confidence attractive, and she hates whiny complaining. When I landed her first when we were dating, It was patience and had to play it extremely cool, and give her the sense I wasn’t interested. That’s why after 14 years together I’m guessing her basic mechanics is still in there somewhere...just need practical advice how to get her to make her feel that way again. Just thinking if I made myself ‘less available’ (I know it sounds strange in a marriage). Less affection, less touchy-feely, more time being busy, etc...do you get my thinking?


----------



## spruce_goose (May 12, 2011)

This advice is somewhat helpful. But my thinking is the less doting on her, less constant affection- and no asking/begging for sex. Focus on myself and the kids- and we’ll see what happens. I do know her iron is low and she has constant anxiety about things- like always worrying about stuff. Her sleep patterns are inconsistent too. Like tired in the day and then she wakes up at night. I just can’t see an affair, but with technology today, who knows. Y’all got me thinking about that now!


----------



## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

spruce_goose said:


> Basically what I told you about her- kids, work, tired. Sex and me are not a priority. But I do know she finds confidence attractive, and she hates whiny complaining. When I landed her first when we were dating, It was patience and had to play it extremely cool, and give her the sense I wasn’t interested. That’s why after 14 years together I’m guessing her basic mechanics is still in there somewhere...just need practical advice how to get her to make her feel that way again. Just thinking if I made myself ‘less available’ (I know it sounds strange in a marriage). Less affection, less touchy-feely, more time being busy, etc...do you get my thinking?


I get your thinking, but this shouldn't be a performance. You should not behave in disingenuous ways.

If your wife has the hots for confidence, then make yourself into a more confident man. *Don't* assume the guise of confidence, but put in the actual work (physical or psychological) necessary for you to think highly of yourself. If you need to be in better shape to be confident, then get in better shape. If you need to be more knowledgeable, then start reading books. Become your own definition of irresistible, and you will naturally exude confidence and strength. That's what your wife wants - for you to be who you want to be. Not put on a show in the hopes of gaining her approval.

Besides that, if her disinterest in sex is really due to her responsibilities being too burdensome, then lighten the load. I personally think it's unrealistic, and unhealthy, for a woman to work and raise children at the same time. There just isn't enough time and energy to go around, and what's the point of having kids if you're just going to pay someone else to look after them, and raise them for you while you're at work?

Perhaps she could scale down to a part time teaching job. Perhaps be a sub. Or she could quit entirely, and focus on what's most important - her family.


----------



## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

I'm going to respectfully disagree with all of the below.

Forget about what you SHOULDN'T have to do. The cold hard truth is that your wife isn't turned on. She has zero desire to have sex with you. All the other stuff about being "tired" and "overburdened" is ancillary and not the main cause. This is illustrated perfectly when the cold/disinterested/tired/overwhelmed wife is caught in a torrid love affair that puts most porn to shame. Women in the throes of an affair will drive 8 hours, get zero sleep, have marathon sex sessions with her lover and then go back to her family as if nothing happened. 

You certainly don't want to change up your job or anything else to appease her and get her to be less exhausted. It flat out won't work.

FOUR MONTHS? Something is up. Big time. 

Married people forget that you are still in the mating game. In fact, you're deeper in the mating game than some new boyfriend/girlfriend. All that shallow stuff that you do early in the relationship to win them over shouldn't be shoved aside... in fact it should be AMPLIFIED because you have the obstacle of familiarity and comfort to contend with (two potent female libido killers). 

She's bored. She's not turned on. She's boning somebody else. One of those two... or all three. 



BioFury said:


> I get your thinking, but this shouldn't be a performance. You should not behave in disingenuous ways.
> 
> If your wife has the hots for confidence, then make yourself into a more confident man. *Don't* assume the guise of confidence, but put in the actual work (physical or psychological) necessary for you to think highly of yourself. If you need to be in better shape to be confident, then get in better shape. If you need to be more knowledgeable, then start reading books. Become your own definition of irresistible, and you will naturally exude confidence and strength. That's what your wife wants - for you to be who you want to be. Not put on a show in the hopes of gaining her approval.
> 
> ...


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

spruce_goose, if it hasn't been asked before,then here it is now. If she's not screwing you, who is she screwing? 
There are few women who will put up with no sex for 4 months. 
Speaking from experience, If you are on the back burner somehow, she's shagging someone else, or at least, emotionally connected to
the other guy.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Lots of times it's not they are not into sex, or to tired for sex. It's they are not into sex with you, or to tried for sex with you.


----------



## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

dadstartingover said:


> All the other stuff about being "tired" and "overburdened" is ancillary and not the main cause. This is illustrated perfectly when the cold/disinterested/tired/overwhelmed wife is caught in a torrid love affair that puts most porn to shame. Women in the throes of an affair will drive 8 hours, get zero sleep, have marathon sex sessions with her lover and then go back to her family as if nothing happened.


I'm jogging my memory, and can't recall any story about a legitimately exhausted and overwhelmed woman screwing a lover on the side. Sure, women use those labels as excuses when they are not genuinely experiencing them, but that's all together different than what you're describing. Which is that a woman who dreams about faceplanting into bed at the end of the day, is carving out several hours a week for passionate romps with lover boy.


----------



## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Cutting you off for 4 months is usually a sign of someone that has checked out. I know some will think this might be a premature assessment based on the info that's been given but I strongly suggest you verify if there's not another man in the picture.

It's VERY common for a woman who's committing adultery to cut off there husband sexually. Most women are not emotionally able to have sex with more than one man at a time. If your wife has attached to another man, having sex with you would feel like she's cheating on her man. 

The suggestion to up your game should be standard practice. You don't want to stop romancing your wife. Not saying for you to try to nice her. Right now you have to attract her. 

Since you know she's like the majority of women, attracted to strong confident man. You need to work on yourself. Things that will up your self confidence like taking care of your appearance. (clothes, hair, beard, hygiene, ETC) Also you should hit the gym HARD. Doing these things will make you feel better about yourself. Also you need to recapture the man you were before she came into the picture. Reconnect with male friends to do things with just the guys. I'm not drinking in a bar. 

Doing these things will make you a more attractive man. Hopefully your wife will come around but if not, you're now in a better position to go out there and attract a worthy woman.


----------



## TheDudeLebowski (Oct 10, 2017)

Teachers actually cheat a lot. I wouldn't leap to that conclusion, but I wouldn't dismiss it entirely either. 

Personally in your shoes I would just take up new hobbies. Just make more time for yourself. New goals with those hobbies. 

Theres a 180 for infidelity. I think there needs to he a 90° for sexless marriage. Basically instructing on how to make a left turn in your life. If it doesn't work out and fix the sexless marriage, you are basically half way there with the 180. Which is really about preparing yourself for life without your spouse. You don't go full 180° with a sexless marriage, but somewhere around 90° is probably warranted. Which is what you are talking about anyway. Being less available. Carving out personal time for yourself, setting new goals that involve only you and meeting them. Its not where your goal is to be less available, more so you are working on goals and adjusting your priorities to do something fun and enjoyable, and difficult to achieve just for yourself.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Do 2 things and I promise sex will come. Get a gym membership then get a copy of the Married Mans Sex Primer. Spend your time lifting and learning. Either she will get back inside your frame and the sexual chemistry will reignite. Or she won't, meaning she is too far gone and not attracted to you anymore (affair, checked out), nothing you do will change that, you will know with a couple months. Then your choice is divorce or outsource her wifely duties. I told you the sex would come, it just may not be from her! Point is get ready.


----------



## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Based on OP info, what I see is a man that is passive, "afraid to rock the boat". Not able to speak out right upfront with conviction. Big mistake. 

Men that timidly, and without conviction ask for something, seldom, if ever get it. Plus, is a turn-off to females.

When a man/woman find himself/herself in a sexless situation must ask the question: can I stand living in this situation? Yes/no. 

Yes: keep on what you're doing. It will get you nowhere, but you already know that you can take/accept a sexless marriage. 
No: here is where men/women that have self respect, integrity, and the balls to demand a solution or it's over, and really means it, and are ready to take the consequences of a no to his/her demands separate the wish washy weaks that get crumbs.

FYI. I was for three months without sex in my previous marriage, and after analyzing the situation, I knew that that was going to be my lot. I asked for sex or divorce . She went wishy washy, I said DIVORCE. I left and divorced, best decision ever.

People that use kids as an excuse are just weak, paralyzed in fear individuals that are grasping for straws to hang on.

Children are ALWAYS aware/suspect what's going on. They can sense the unhappiness between the parents, and this is detrimental to them. Better with two happy/respectful co-parenting parents than together in hell and/or a loveless environment. This is what you'll be teaching them.

OP make a decision, ask for what you want and follow through with the consequences if it is not what you want; otherwise, stop whining and accept that whether she's not longer sexual, lost her respect/ attraction for you, or simply she's in an affair fog (there's always a possibility),you are accepting it.


----------



## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

I agree with a good deal of what has been written. 

Eliminate the requests or pleading. That has annoyed her, diminished you making you appear less attractive, and given her an exaggerated view of her own attractiveness and importance. Do work on your looks and appearance, and start being less reliable. Go out and come back later. Provide a little bit more mystery. If you have been catering to her, stop it. 

You need a fight but it cannot be about sex alone. If that happens, you get, it's not you, its me, I'm sorry but I'm just not in the mood, now that we got that out of the way, let's start talking about my new kitchen, the vacation I wanted, and some of my other requirements. You need to start putting sex in the context of the entire relationship, it's a package. You always go to her mother's for Sunday dinner, suddenly be unavailable, a party with friends, suddenly you're not in the mood to go. Once you do have a fight, argument, it needs to be about everything. Perhaps she has some concerns so we need to get it out there. She need to understand this is a two way street, come compromise on both sides.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Strength is universally appealing to a sexual partner. And weakness a universal turn off. 

Being physically needy and crowding someone with too much:
- physical proximity, 
- unwanted non sexual touch and 
- unwanted sexual overtures...

is blatantly weak.






spruce_goose said:


> This advice is somewhat helpful. But my thinking is the less doting on her, less constant affection- and no asking/begging for sex. Focus on myself and the kids- and we’ll see what happens. I do know her iron is low and she has constant anxiety about things- like always worrying about stuff. Her sleep patterns are inconsistent too. Like tired in the day and then she wakes up at night. I just can’t see an affair, but with technology today, who knows. Y’all got me thinking about that now!


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

How was sex before? What frequency? And what does she say when you get turned down? 4 months is a long time...


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

This Thread tempts me to be let loose.

You should stuff two tennis balls in your tightest underwear, or your bathing suit and walk around your wife.

You should pretend nothing is amiss, nothing to note.

When she comments and she points at your crotch, likely shocked, maybe smiling and says, "WTH, what are you doing?"

Look her calmly in the eye and tell her....

When a man does not have sex regularly, his balls keep growing and growing.

Play dumb.

Say this matter-of-factly, not with a smile or with a complaint.

Then do a 180 and walk out.


----------



## Coastalguy (May 15, 2018)

As others have asked, what was the frequency before marriage, before kids? Four months is an exceptionally long time for no sex in marriage if no physical or mental issues have presented themselves. Is your wife LD?
Have you experienced lengthy dry spells throughout your marriage?


Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


----------



## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

spruce_goose said:


> This advice is somewhat helpful. But my thinking is the less doting on her, less constant affection- and no asking/begging for sex. Focus on myself and the kids- and we’ll see what happens. I do know her iron is low and she has constant anxiety about things- like always worrying about stuff. Her sleep patterns are inconsistent too. Like tired in the day and then she wakes up at night. I just can’t see an affair, but with technology today, who knows. Y’all got me thinking about that now!


Spruce, there’s already a lot of good advice above. MMSLP is a must read.

Also, from everything you’ve said so far, our wives appear to be very similar. It’s obviously possible she’s having an affair, but I don’t think she is. Like my wife, she probably just has very little interest in sex, or at least no time to think about it right now. I’m still working on our sex life, but have at least made some progress thanks to the advice I’ve had on this forum.

Here are some of the traits our wives share, and some suggestions on what you might be able to do about them:

*Tired/low iron:* my wife works part time, does most of childcare in the week, and often complained of being tired and worn out from it all. She was recently diagnosed with low iron due to her heavy periods. We’ve temporarily solved this by her going back on the pill and she was taking iron tablets for a while, although they disagreed with her in other ways; we are currently considering the coil. So this is in part a medical thing you will need to solve.

It will also help to initiate sex on days when she is likely to be least tired. Or manufacture a day; tell her you are taking the kids out for the day (don’t ask, just say you are doing it) and tell her she can put her feet up or do something she enjoys. At the end of the day you will have a less tired less stressed woman. Even better, get some time alone in the middle of the day. Easier said than done with kids and jobs, but my wife tells me the one time she is vaguely in the mood is around 11am.

The poor sleep could be due to her anxiety, which brings me onto…

*Anxiety:* my wife has high levels of anxiety which often disturbs her sleep when she is worrying about things and can’t switch off. Anxiety + stress = Cortisol which is a big passion killer. Changing her personality ain’t going to happen, but what you can do is remove things from her life that are making her anxious. You haven’t said much about who is in charge in the relationship yet, but my guess is that while you are trying to be nice and tempt her into bed, she is making all the decisions about kids, holidays, plans, etc. Start making all these decisions for her. MMSLP has some good advice on this, but start doing simple things like telling her what you are going to eat each night, what you are going to do as a family at the weekend, where you are going on holiday next summer. Not only will this remove stress from her life, but women want their men to make decisions for them in life. It will show her you are the strong, confident man that you said she finds attractive. If you aren’t doing all this right now, then once you start it will take some time for her to trust that you can do it, but stick at it and things will change. Trust is good when trying to get her pants off.

*Conservatism/lack of interest in sex:* my wife is low drive, barely ever thinks about sex, doesn’t like anything adventurous in bed, and I’m fairly certain she doesn’t even masturbate. Look up the difference between *Spontaneous Desire vs Responsive Desire*. In a nutshell, most men are spontaneous, ie, we spontaneously seek out sex from our partners. However many women are responsive; they will only get turned on to sex in response to their partners desiring them. My wife is at the extreme end of the responsive scale. I used to ask my wife for sex regularly, and surprise surprise, she would always turn around and say she wasn’t in the mood (or a similar excuse, tired, etc). Maybe once a year when the planets were aligned she might actually say yes, and it used to drive me nuts.

Understanding responsive desire was a game changer for me. It made me realise that asking my wife for sex was pointless since she was almost always going to say no. She used to tell me that she wanted that spark back from the start of our relationship, but now it was gone she just had no desire for it. The solution I found was to first explain responsive desire to her. Initially she didn’t believe me so I then showed her a few TED talks on it (by women) which convinced her. I then asked her if a sex life was important to her, or was she honestly happy to have no sex for the rest of our marriage. This is a tough question to ask and you have to be prepared for the response, but if your wife loves you, I suspect she will realise (like mine did) that having a healthy sexual relationship is important to the health of a marriage.

Then you’ll need to explain to her that the only way you can have a sexual relationship is to put a regular date/sex night in the diary. You may get some resistance to this, but it will solve a few things; first your wife won’t have to worry anymore about you constantly nagging her for sex, it will be in your mental diaries, so the rest of the time she can relax and not wonder when she is next going to have to fend you off. Second it will bypass her responsive desire; tell her that on these nights you will desire her strongly and eventually she will get into it too – that is the only way RD women will ever have sex. Most of the time when we have sex, I’m pretty much on top of my wife with all her clothes off before she starts showing any desire for me, but once we get going she normally enjoys it. You may even discover that being a little pushy and dominant with her when the time comes may be a turn on for her :smile2:

I could probably go on but that should give you a few things to think about.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

GreenOrb said:


> Spruce, there’s already a lot of good advice above. MMSLP is a must read.
> 
> Also, from everything you’ve said so far, our wives appear to be very similar. It’s obviously possible she’s having an affair, but I don’t think she is. Like my wife, she probably just has very little interest in sex, or at least no time to think about it right now. I’m still working on our sex life, but have at least made some progress thanks to the advice I’ve had on this forum.
> 
> ...


Hey @GreenOrb, you are back. How are things?


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

All very well, and good advice, but all this will work only if his wife is prepared to make an effort. If she still loves him and find him attractive, she will cooperate. If she's checked out of the marriage, she is not attracted to him anymore, nothing will work. The OP needs to find out the REAL reason for the rejections. He needs to have a frank discussion with his wife. Then he will be able to take the necessary steps. I suspect she's gone... 





GreenOrb said:


> Spruce, there’s already a lot of good advice above. MMSLP is a must read.
> 
> Also, from everything you’ve said so far, our wives appear to be very similar. It’s obviously possible she’s having an affair, but I don’t think she is. Like my wife, she probably just has very little interest in sex, or at least no time to think about it right now. I’m still working on our sex life, but have at least made some progress thanks to the advice I’ve had on this forum.
> 
> ...


----------



## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Hey @GreenOrb, you are back. How are things?


Hey Prime. Things are good. Work went a little crazy on me for a few months so I fell off the radar, but its calmed down now.

Still working on things with G2, but life is vastly better than it was 6 months ago. I'm still pushing to up the frequency, but sex is regular and is gradually getting better as I get more confident. After years of being nicey nicey with her, I've realised I'm actually enjoying becoming more dominant - most of the time I have to be anyway just got her clothes off. I'm still learning so plenty of room to improve things, although I think I'll probably have to work on this for the rest of my life.

Hope things still good with you and Mrs Prime?


----------



## GreenOrb (Feb 14, 2018)

In Absentia said:


> All very well, and good advice, but all this will work only if his wife is prepared to make an effort. If she still loves him and find him attractive, she will cooperate. If she's checked out of the marriage, she is not attracted to him anymore, nothing will work. The OP needs to find out the REAL reason for the rejections. He needs to have a frank discussion with his wife. Then he will be able to take the necessary steps. I suspect she's gone...


I agree. If she's checked out of the marriage and is simply holding it together for the sake of the kids then it could all fall apart if Spruce starts down the rabbit hole.

However there were times I often thought my wife didn't love me due to all the rejection. In the dark days we definitely went 4 months without sex. But when I sorted myself out she did respond. But like you say, Spruce needs to be prepared for the alternative.


----------



## spruce_goose (May 12, 2011)

GreenOrb- probably the best advice anyone has provided, re: the responsive desire. I have investigated and truly do not believe infidelity is an issue. I see an exhausted woman, dealing with anxiety most every day (she's had issues with anxiety as long as I've known her). So here's the plan, and feel free to critique: no more sappy nice guy crap (but not to the level of *******), focus on me, and after some time, a positive convo about sex and how to increase it our marriage. Ask her what are her barriers (requesting an honest response), and then suggest we pencil in a regular date and work together to make it happen. I'll give it a shot and see what happens before I think about Plan B.

Thoughts?


----------



## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Well done so far. Still, take her out of the stressful environment at some point soon, for a few days.


----------



## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

From what you wrote, I don't think she is having an affair. But, this is the typical situation where a man thinks a wife is not interested in sex that becomes shocked to find that she has an affair. So it's not necessarily happening now, but if this situation does not change then it is likely that it will happen in the future. I say this because you need to understand that this is likely in your future even though you think there is no possibility because she's a good person who would never do that and doesn't care about sex.

What is happening is this. You equate marriage with a lifetime companion and lifetime sexual partner. Your wife equates marriage with a social structure. In other words the purpose or marriage is different for both of you. There is nothing unusual or wrong about this. However, your wife does not associate marriage with a lifetime sexual partner which is why she will find a sexual partner outside of marriage while maintaining the social structure that marriage affords.

You basically know the solution to your problem because you wrote about how you got her sexually interested in the first place.

What you have to do is first define to yourself what a marriage is. You need to believe in your heart that a marriage can only exist when both partners are meeting the needs of the other while both partners are having their needs met by the other. If you don't believe that this is what a marriage is then you will fail.

So, if you truly believe that this is what a marriage is, then you have to come to the realization that what you have with your wife is not a marriage by YOUR PERSONAL DEFINITION.

Do you think your wife would be attracted to a man who has an unwavering definition of what a marriage is, then calls a spade a spade in saying that this relationship is not a proper marriage, and acts accordingly? This is not an ACT, it is a set of values that you must live by.

But, in order to stand up for a marriage where your needs are being met, you must make damn sure that you understand what her needs are and are meeting them, because you need to advocate for your needs from a position of strength. In other words, your wife needs to have a marriage that she is willing to work to maintain, and that marriage is one where her needs are being met.


----------



## spruce_goose (May 12, 2011)

Hicks said:


> From what you wrote, I don't think she is having an affair. But, this is the typical situation where a man thinks a wife is not interested in sex that becomes shocked to find that she has an affair. So it's not necessarily happening now, but if this situation does not change then it is likely that it will happen in the future. I say this because you need to understand that this is likely in your future even though you think there is no possibility because she's a good person who would never do that and doesn't care about sex.
> 
> What is happening is this. You equate marriage with a lifetime companion and lifetime sexual partner. Your wife equates marriage with a social structure. In other words the purpose or marriage is different for both of you. There is nothing unusual or wrong about this. However, your wife does not associate marriage with a lifetime sexual partner which is why she will find a sexual partner outside of marriage while maintaining the social structure that marriage affords.
> 
> ...


Agree with most of this. A discussion of my needs/her needs is essential to get to the roots of this issue


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

So what are you and the kids going to do without her this weekend? Fishing, Nature hike, yard work, picnic, dinner and a movie (smallfoot was pretty good). I do strongly suggest that you take up some hobby and that you involve yourself in your kids lives a lot. Always announce your outings with a "I know you are too tired for this", or "I know this doesn't interest you". I suspect that she will vert soon get "tired" of resting at home. If you want her to be interested in you, you have to be interesting, and sometimes that means doing interesting things. 

About Iron and heavy periods, We fought that for several years (our youngest is 20) Iron tablets should be accomplished by a over the counter stool softener. We tried the pill and we tried the IUD eventually did an ablation instead of the partial hysterectomy. My point is if some doc is saying this is just part of life, don't accept it. Keep pushing until it is solved. (not that solving the iron problem fixed her libido, but the irregular heartbeat evened out (yes this can be very serious))

My little sister teaches junior high band, and has been doing it while raising 5 kids. She has always maintained a high level of desire for her husband. Band includes concerts, a musical and summer band.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

spruce_goose said:


> Agree with most of this. A discussion of my needs/her needs is essential to get to the roots of this issue


His Needs, Her Needs is an excellent book. Better if you read it together.


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

spruce_goose said:


> Basically what I told you about her- kids, work, tired. Sex and me are not a priority. *But I do know she finds confidence attractive, and she hates whiny complaining.* When I landed her first when we were dating, It was patience and had to play it extremely cool, and give her the sense I wasn’t interested. That’s why after 14 years together I’m guessing her basic mechanics is still in there somewhere...just need practical advice how to get her to make her feel that way again. Just thinking if I made myself ‘less available’ (I know it sounds strange in a marriage). Less affection, less touchy-feely, more time being busy, etc...do you get my thinking?


 @spruce_goose in marriages there are different "seasons" of love. Spring, summer, fall, winter, and spring and so on... 

In my opinion confidence is always the best option, and you have to show her that you can love her through all those seasons (although I admit four months is really problematic!). 

If your wife has zero libido, you need to let her know that it is OK. At the same time you need to let her know you still love and desire her and ask that she be willing to work with you to be more receptive to you. You are likely overlooking a few things that could create strong obstacles for her. 

She may be struggling with low self esteem, and the idea of being intimate means she has to confront that her feelings of you no longer being attracted to her. She may feel any "attraction" you have is just a form of manipulation to use her for sex and that it is not legitimate. If she has herself convinced of that then she may honestly believe you are lying to her about her being attractive. If this is the case, you will have to work on that. Sometimes the best way is to show her you care about her looking nice by complimenting which of her dresses/cloths look the best on her, and be ready to explain why you feel that way compared to her other cloths. Also help her focus on eating healthy and avoid fast foods.

She may be struggling with stress. Kids, work, and finances can not only take a toll on a woman's libido but it can weaken her immune systems which in turn can create a chronic inflammation of her most sensitive areas. Some women that get this problem find it almost impossible to resolve and may experience a great deal of pain/discomfort during intercourse. Even if it has gotten better, this will cause serious problems because the idea of sex might be like that of opening back up a very precarious wound and pouring salt on it. If this is your situation, the best thing is eating healthy, exercise, and sleep. If it is fibroids, then you may want to look into prescription or surgical options. 

And most importantly she may have built up resentment towards you. If you have been behaving passive aggressively towards her due to your anger and frustrations caused by lack of intimacy, that will only make your situation exponentially worse. Trying to make up by being a nice guy will still also make it exponentially worse. You have to LISTEN to her feelings and make sure she knows you understand her. Trying to "help" her with her feelings may come across as if you don't accept her and are insisting that it is not OK for her to feel the way she feels. Talk to her and when she tells you something focus 100% on LISTENING! 

Hope that helps, 
Badsanta


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

badsanta said:


> She may feel any "attraction" you have is just a form of manipulation to use her for sex and that it is not legitimate.


Hold on, hold on... it was going very well until the above... this is the exact argument my wife was using against me. That I was nice to her because I wanted sex... WTF? I wanted to have sex with her because I was missing the intimacy, the bond, her love, her body. I wanted to feel close to her. Not just "use her for sex"... this is a horrible statement that I have seen bandied about many times by women trying to turn the tables... is it so difficult to understand that your husband wants to make love to you because he loves you, is attracted to you and he wants you? We would have bought an inflatable sex doll otherwise... :scratchhead:


----------



## spruce_goose (May 12, 2011)

@badsanta- i really like this approach and your suggestions! I do not subscribe to the opinion of others that 'I should be laying down the law' or 'she's getting it from somewhere else'; I think i will still focus on playing it a little cool (like I said), focus on me, and then have a rational, listening discussion of how she feels without being sappy, and discuss my needs as well. You're right- just listen!


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Hold on, hold on... it was going very well until the above... this is the exact argument my wife was using against me. That I was nice to her because I wanted sex... WTF? I wanted to have sex with her because I was missing the intimacy, the bond, her love, her body. I wanted to feel close to her. Not just "use her for sex"...


Not sure if the OP has this problem, but this might be lurking under the surface to some degree...

I'll expand and perhaps stereotype men and women in the process. The male and female sexual desire often work as polar opposites. If you ask a guy what is needed to get extremely aroused and wanting sex, odds are he can give you a list of things readily known to be extremely stimulating. If you ask a woman what she needs to get extremely aroused, odds are she does not know but may suggest that anything too routine or lacking in emotional connection is problematic. Of course there are exceptions to this, but generally speaking a wife might think, "well I know for sure he just saw something really sexy in a movie we were watching recently and that is what has him all aroused for sex, and not me!"

OK, now add to this that men and women often respond the exact opposite to stress in terms of sexuality. Men readily know that sex is very relaxing and comforting, especially due to the make refractory period which can be like taking a valium. So when men get stressed, men often crave sex. This is the opposite for women. Often sex leaves women feeling very energized and unable to relax since there is no refractory period. Perhaps a husband that is full of desire and extremely aroused will climax fast just leaving her wanting and feeling unsettled. So therefor in situations where the husband has a higher libido, the nature of the male refractory period tends to make the problems worse. A wife may feel, "well if he wanted to be with me, it would have been nice if he could be patient enough for me to enjoy the moment together instead of him going straight to the point and making me feel used."

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

badsanta said:


> Not sure if the OP has this problem, but this might be lurking under the surface to some degree...
> 
> I'll expand and perhaps stereotype men and women in the process. The male and female sexual desire often work as polar opposites. If you ask a guy what is needed to get extremely aroused and wanting sex, odds are he can give you a list of things readily known to be extremely stimulating. If you ask a woman what she needs to get extremely aroused, odds are she does not know but may suggest that anything too routine or lacking in emotional connection is problematic. Of course there are exceptions to this, but generally speaking a wife might think, "well I know for sure he just saw something really sexy in a movie we were watching recently and that is what has him all aroused for sex, and not me!"
> 
> ...



Thanks for the lecture... :smile2: I think I'm going to buy an inflatable... :laugh:


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

badsanta said:


> -snip-
> 
> She may be struggling with low self esteem, and the idea of being intimate means she has to confront that her feelings of you no longer being attracted to her. She may feel any "attraction" you have is just a form of manipulation to use her for sex and that it is not legitimate. If she has herself convinced of that then she may honestly believe you are lying to her about her being attractive. -snip-
> Hope that helps,
> Badsanta





In Absentia said:


> Hold on, hold on... it was going very well until the above... this is the exact argument my wife was using against me. That I was nice to her because I wanted sex... WTF? I wanted to have sex with her because I was missing the intimacy, the bond, her love, her body. I wanted to feel close to her. Not just "use her for sex"... this is a horrible statement that I have seen bandied about many times by women trying to turn the tables... is it so difficult to understand that your husband wants to make love to you because he loves you, is attracted to you and he wants you? We would have bought an inflatable sex doll otherwise... :scratchhead:


This is a lot like the "does this make me look fat?" question. There really is no right answer. No thing you can do to fix it. You are going to come out of this with lump or two. I strongly suggest giving her exactly what she asks for. More time, less pressure, less stress. Not laying down the law, Not accusations.

In fact I highly recommend Plan F. Plan F is "**** this I'm going Fishing"

This is not Playing some Game. This is actually refusing to play a rigged game. Seriously, give this woman a break from you and the kids.


----------



## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

badsanta said:


> And most importantly she may have built up resentment towards you. If you have been behaving passive aggressively towards her due to your anger and frustrations caused by lack of intimacy, that will only make your situation exponentially worse. Trying to make up by being a nice guy will still also make it exponentially worse. You have to LISTEN to her feelings and make sure she knows you understand her.


If she pulls that "you are only nice to me for sex", don't fight her. Admit it. "Yes, I want sex. I figured being pleasant was more conducive to getting you in the mood for sex than being a jerk. But if you get hot when I act like a jerk, then I am happy to indulge your preference."

I agree with everyone to give her more alone time. I often suggest camping, especially with young kids. Gets everyone away from SOSO around the house. Great bonding time for dad and the kids. Mom is free to talk a pass and soak in the tub all weekend while dad and the kids are rolling around in the mud. Sit around the campfire and roast marshmallows. Lots of them. The kids feel special and Mom doesn't have to deal with kids on a sugar high late at night. Win - win - win.

And if you have a Mom-led family, a great way for dad to show some competence. Setting up the tent. Building a fire. Cooking dinner. Cleaning up after. Shows that dad is a fully functional parent. Good for the kids to see and good for dad to be able to take charge without being second guessed by Mom (a/k/a The Boss of the House). Nice for dad to get to be The Boss of the Campground.


----------



## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

spruce_goose said:


> Agree with most of this. A discussion of my needs/her needs is essential to get to the roots of this issue


Others will disagree however IMO talking rarely is a good idea for these things and in fact often just makes things worse. Counter-intuitive I know but hear me out. I think it's OK to *1 time* voice concern over conditions and needs but be wary of where that can lead. Read too many messages on these boards from desperate husbands where "the talk" leads to "if you just did this" until the next "talk" and new perpetually shifting goal posts. What's worse is that you've then implicitly subordinated yourself to her needs (causing her to lose respect and attraction) and/or planted the idea that they are the problem (causing more resentment and loss of attraction). If she still loves you she'll likely actually make a token effort at least initially to be responsive, but even then those times become clouded with negative thoughts for her ("what's he thinking", "what if I say no", "is he judging me", etc.) Now she associates sex with you as a chore and a negative thing and that can only last so long before the bottom drops out and leads to the next "talk". Rinse and repeat. It's human nature for men to want to overtly communicate these things but just be aware that you simply cannot negotiate desire in any way shape or form. And make no mistake having the "talk" is ultimately negotiation. She knows you need/want sex and hasn't simply forgotten for the past 4 months.

Here's the thing - in many cases (most?) the women aren't even fully aware of why it is that they are no longer attracted to you. And let's be honest that's the core issue. There's a big subconscious need to not admit failure on their part in mate selection (huge ego blow and also wasted investment), so they'll convince themselves it's anything but core underlying attraction. They'll earnestly believe this too. And even if they did consciously know that they aren't attracted to you they'll vary rarely tell you that directly. There's nothing they can tell you to do that you can take action on that will regain their respect. If they have to tell you directly how to be attractive to them then any changes you make will be fake and at their behest only. And they can't respect a man like that because he's not authentic. You need to simply just "get it".

Wish there was an easier way. You will have to do the hard work and be really introspective and really listen to what your wife's behavior is telling you. She *IS* communicating with you all the time but you have to observe. She's likely been telling you things subtly long before the marriage went dry. What that is I cannot tell you and is unique to each situation. But don't get angry, stick your head in the sand and assume that you've done all you can. If she ever loved you before and was genuinely attracted to you then you've either lost or done something to change the dynamic.

Just my 2 cents...


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> and after some time, a positive convo about sex and how to increase it our marriage. Ask her what are her barriers (requesting an honest response),


PLEASE don't do this. Like some meeting to assign chores....

I am a HD woman, and if my husband wanted to have a "sit down" to talk about our sex life I would just dry up on the spot.

If you want sex, initiate boldly. Tell her you are taking her to dinner and then the two of you are going to make crazy love.

Ugh...having a sex status meeting is just about the most unsexy thing I can think of. Asking her what her "barriers" are?

No. Just no


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> Thanks for the lecture... :smile2: I think I'm going to buy an inflatable... :laugh:


Joking aside... a "hands free" solution is by far superior. The discovery process of what that might be and how to do it while completely relaxing can be rather educational and help you better understand human sexuality!


----------



## spruce_goose (May 12, 2011)

personofinterest said:


> PLEASE don't do this. Like some meeting to assign chores....
> 
> I am a HD woman, and if my husband wanted to have a "sit down" to talk about our sex life I would just dry up on the spot.
> 
> ...


Hmm- ok just thinking about this, you're probably right. Very uncool. Any other suggestions?


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

personofinterest said:


> PLEASE don't do this. Like some meeting to assign chores....
> 
> I am a HD woman, and if my husband wanted to have a "sit down" to talk about our sex life I would just dry up on the spot.
> 
> ...


This has got to be the first time a woman has told me not to communicate. On the other had . . . . my wife does actively refuse to talk about sex. I reject the just do it advice, because vague disinterest just dries me up on the spot. Total wilt.


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

One thing to keep in mind as you go forward is that this is a very difficult problem to solve and will take a lot of time and effort. There is no quick fix. And the reality is, there may not be a fix at all. In many cases, it does not improve enough and the couple ends up divorcing. If you go into this problem thinking you can do X or Y and the problem will go away, it's likely not going to work out. You should think of this issue as a chronic health issue which may never go away. You and she can do a lot to manage the issue and limit the effects, but you'll both always have to make working on this a priority. 

I bring this up not to discourage you, but to make sure you're in the right mindset. From some of your posts here, I get the sense you might be thinking you can do some technique to flip her switch to get her desire back. It's not going to work like that that. It will be a process that is much more interactive, reactive, and ongoing. Expect failures even when she's trying. She'll need to work through a lot of things as well. The more you can show that you want to work with her through this, the better it will go. And realize that you may have to change your view of what success is. She may try as hard as she can, but she may never be able to meet your expectations. Make sure you don't make her feel like it's impossible to make you happy.

As an analogy, imagine she has dyslexia. That makes reading very difficult and it doesn't just go away. But through lots of hard work, she could learn skills to not let it limit her, but she'll never be cured. If you expect to be able to cure her dyslexia or make her feel bad because she can't read well, it will be counter productive and she may regress. But instead if you appreciate the effort she makes and whatever improvement that brings, she'd be more likely to continue working on it.


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

You mentioned that your W deals with anxiety.

Is she on any anxiety or depression meds? If so, look into some of the side effects of those. Some are serious libido killers.


----------



## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

I kinda agree with some and then with others as well. There are nuggets of truth from everyone. 

For me...What would I do?

I would read the married mens primer. And start the 180. You already said that you and your kids are taking the back seat in this relationship no? There MAY or MAY NOT be a Chad in the wings ready to sweep up this 7th. grade teacher. But it doesn't really matter...Yet. We are talking only about YOU. And YOUR needs. 

1st. thing I am reminding myself...I am a Man, a good man. That happens to be a husband and a father. And to make that happen, my partner needs to be on board with me. I NEED to know she has my back. I need to know that she places value with me in her life and that I matter. Not as a security blanket or a freakin' paycheck... A valued partner in life as a co-equal. Period. 

That I desire my mate, and wish to show that affection through the act of love making. Not just pitiful "duty sex". I want fire, passion and desire for ME!!! I want my partner to WANT me for me. And if that is unnobtainable, then decisions have to be made....

I would be honest and let her know that you feel unwanted and not involved in this marriage. Your job is to be communicating well too you know! I would also, make it clear that since she has removed you from part of this marriage equation, that you will be removing her as well. You start taking the kids places. Involve yourself into friends and family events without her. If you are already doing familial duties around the house, then only do those that affect you and the kids. No more of her stuff. Her oil on the car needs to be changed? Let her go to Midas and get it done herself. She needs cash for the day, she forgot to go the bank? Let her know where the closest ATM is...

The fact is, she has put you into familiar couch mode...You are necessary for her to park her big azz in and get comfy. ie...Care of children, taking care of bills, maintaining a household. But the fire of passion with a knight in shining armor...NOPE. You ain't it.

I would also, take the bull by the horns and get a little "aggressive" in the moment as well. You need to come onto her, not just "demanding sex"... But nuzzle in the neck. Grab the butt, smell her hair. You need to initiate. If she rebuffs you constantly, then again, you have your answer, and you can make your decision...

I would like to have "alone time" with myself and the missus. Have total concentration on her and listen attentively to her. What she does, what she wants, how she sees the relationship and you matter of factly...

Then, I would be putting an ear to the ground. Is the marriage safe? Is she really mine? Or am I just keeping the seat warm for somebody else? Watch the bills, Find out the hours worked and milage on the car. I would check the cell phone. Not all the time mind you, but just once in awhile. By the way, if she catches on....You just let her know that you are taking an active approach to household duties and looking into places where money can be saved. Can't argue with that one...

Finally, I would take stock into what I have and what I don't. What is important to me, and what is not. Ultimately, I am owning up to my own sense of self worth and am willing to lift the weight to achieve happiness in my life. If she is with me, then so be it. If not well....Oh well, there are 2 billion people on this little blue marble and chances are I can find someone to hold my hand in life that values my being and whole self....


----------



## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

personofinterest said:


> PLEASE don't do this. Like some meeting to assign chores....
> 
> I am a HD woman, and if my husband wanted to have a "sit down" to talk about our sex life I would just dry up on the spot.
> 
> ...


EXACTLY. *"Hey, let's talk about how you're not turned on by me. Okay, now that we've talked about it, are you turned on now? No? How about now? Now?"*

The talk reinforces the idea that you REALLY don't get it. 

At best, the talk results in pity sex. She feels bad for being so bluntly turned off by you, or she wants to shut you up for a while. Yay... sounds awesome. 

Sexual desire is animalistic. It's not rationalized. You don't sit down with a spreadsheet and flowchart and show your spouse how their lack of sexual arousal is so hurtful. They're well aware of how not turned on they are.


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

dadstartingover said:


> EXACTLY. *"Hey, let's talk about how you're not turned on by me. Okay, now that we've talked about it, are you turned on now? No? How about now? Now?"*
> 
> The talk reinforces the idea that you REALLY don't get it.


I agree with what you said, but there can still be some benefits of discussing the issue. One benefit of talking it out can highlight places where she is sabotaging any efforts to improve. If she says too busy, dig into what is keeping her busy. If she says she's too stressed, dig into why she's stressed. Often, she is herself overscheduling and overcommitting her time, which means it's no surprise she's never in the mood. If she says being busy and stressed is getting in the way, she should be actively working on ways to simplify and de-stress her life. If her head is too full of these external influences, it will really stifle any effort he makes to improve the situation. If she expects him to do all the work to simplify and de-stress her life, that's not going to have a successful outcome. We often see where the H takes on more of the chores, but often what happens is that the W fills that time with more external activities rather than using that free-time to relax and connect with her H.

So I think taking about it in a limited fashion can be useful to identify these blocking factors and work on ways that she can also get rid of them. But don't expect to be able to talk through the issues enough to turn her on.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The total cessation of sex typically means either:
1. She doesn’t care if you cheat on/divorce her 
Or
2. She is confident that you are emotionally incapable of leaving her, partly due to you being so clingy

(1) Means she considers you a low quality partner
(2) That you are her largest dependent

So far you’ve managed to avoid saying a single thing about the positives you bring to the marriage other than being physically attractive. 

Maybe you bring a lot to the marriage, and are just too needy. If so, stepping back might work.





spruce_goose said:


> Hmm- ok just thinking about this, you're probably right. Very uncool. Any other suggestions?


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

spruce_goose said:


> Hmm- ok just thinking about this, you're probably right. Very uncool. Any other suggestions?


\I will tell you that women don't forget conversations about sex. If you have already talked about this, she knows. She hasn't forgotten.

In fact, any woman with a basic working intelligence knows that when she marries, regular sex WILL be an expectation.

So you just initiate boldly. If she rejects, you say, you look forward to being with her tomorrow night. If this doesn't work for, say a couple of weeks, you just simply state you want and desire her, and you expect your marriage to be sexual. End of discussion.

If she continues refusing past a month, you tell her that you are not sure you want to continue in a marriage that is not sexual. You don't give particulars. You just share that thought.

If another month passes, you present her with divorce papers.

Is this harsh? Yes. Is it probably the only thing that might work? I believe so.

Women who deny their husbands sex mete out "tired" "not helping enough" "not romantic enough" etc etc in succession, peppered with occasional sex, so that they can draw out the marriage as long as possible without really DOING anything to improve.

The only way to stop the cycle is to STOP the cycle.

You might have noticed, I have almost zero respect for a woman who will not have sex with her husband, and from what I have observed, marriage complaints are - in REALITY - the cause about 5% of the time.


----------



## Bananapeel (May 4, 2015)

Talking can work but only if you have the balls to enforce your boundaries. When I was married there was a short time where the sex started drying up and my wife was losing her interest. After about a week or two I had a talk with my wife and told her that if she didn't want to have a romantic relationship with me then I'd respect her decision and we could part ways amicably. Having a friendship instead of a husband-wife dynamic was not negotiable if she wanted to remain my wife. I was always the leader in the relationship and honest with her so she knew I meant it and she reevaluated her priorities. However, that only worked because I was always direct and sincere throughout our whole marriage. If I was bluffing then her BS meter would have gone off and our talk would have had the counter effect. For the OP, the approach of talking is not going to work because he's put up with no sex for 4 months which shows he isn't assertive/direct and has weak boundaries. She'll smell his BS a mile away and will just further test him and emasculate him. Assuming there is no affair (the OP has declined to investigate so he really doesn't know what the real problem is) then the only way for the talk to work is if it comes with him doing a lot of self improvement. He needs to get in great shape, develop a social life without his wife, develop a higher social standing, update his wardrobe, and learn to flirt. If his wife notices then his problems will resolve and if she doesn't care then he'll have made enough self improvement to swap his wife out for an upgrade. That's a win-win.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The best post so far is the one below. I am merely adding detail to it.

You receive a constant stream of very honest feedback from your wife via:
1. Body language, 
2. facial expression
3. tone of voice
4. pacing, rate of speech
5. volume of speech

Separate from this are specific dimensions: Does she seem happy to see you at the end of the day?

Are you able to help her reduce her anxieties or do you amplify them?

There is a tv series called: Lie to me
That series explains the science of human behavior very precisely.








BigDigg said:


> Others will disagree however IMO talking rarely is a good idea for these things and in fact often just makes things worse. Counter-intuitive I know but hear me out. I think it's OK to *1 time* voice concern over conditions and needs but be wary of where that can lead. Read too many messages on these boards from desperate husbands where "the talk" leads to "if you just did this" until the next "talk" and new perpetually shifting goal posts. What's worse is that you've then implicitly subordinated yourself to her needs (causing her to lose respect and attraction) and/or planted the idea that they are the problem (causing more resentment and loss of attraction). If she still loves you she'll likely actually make a token effort at least initially to be responsive, but even then those times become clouded with negative thoughts for her ("what's he thinking", "what if I say no", "is he judging me", etc.) Now she associates sex with you as a chore and a negative thing and that can only last so long before the bottom drops out and leads to the next "talk". Rinse and repeat. It's human nature for men to want to overtly communicate these things but just be aware that you simply cannot negotiate desire in any way shape or form. And make no mistake having the "talk" is ultimately negotiation. She knows you need/want sex and hasn't simply forgotten for the past 4 months.
> 
> Here's the thing - in many cases (most?) the women aren't even fully aware of why it is that they are no longer attracted to you. And let's be honest that's the core issue. There's a big subconscious need to not admit failure on their part in mate selection (huge ego blow and also wasted investment), so they'll convince themselves it's anything but core underlying attraction. They'll earnestly believe this too. And even if they did consciously know that they aren't attracted to you they'll vary rarely tell you that directly. There's nothing they can tell you to do that you can take action on that will regain their respect. If they have to tell you directly how to be attractive to them then any changes you make will be fake and at their behest only. And they can't respect a man like that because he's not authentic. You need to simply just "get it".
> 
> ...


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> PLEASE don't do this. Like some meeting to assign chores....
> 
> I am a HD woman, and if my husband wanted to have a "sit down" to talk about our sex life I would just dry up on the spot.
> 
> ...



Not saying this is the case here, but for a husband that may have autism or be somewhere on the spectrum this makes sexual communication damn near impossible. Since "autism" is sometimes referred to as the "male brain," women may just never understand that things need to sometimes be spelled out very clearly. This nonsense of "you just need to already know" what pleases me and NEVER EVER ASK is like being married to:



> WHATEVER YOU ARE DOING IS WRONG! FIX IT! DO NOT ASK ME HOW!


Now because @personofinterest mentioned that she is the HD one, obviously there is not going to be a problem here with regards to frequency, unless the husband starts asking too many questions. 

Circling back around, the solution is still to try and be a good LISTENER. Those that have autism invariably struggle to be good listeners because a wife might be telling her husband something important for the relationship, but the only thing getting through to the husband's mind is that there is an ant carrying a crumb across the floor and if someone does not pay attention to the direction in which it is moving to find the nest there will soon be 100s more in your cabinets, OMG they will soon find the cereal boxes the kids always leave open!!!! 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Edit to my post below. 

The human body isn’t a RECEIVER, it is a TRANSCEIVER. So while you are receiving a multi-channel cast of what she thinks and feels, you are also transmitting. And at a certain level of tension or fear, you begin to sweat fear. 





MEM2020 said:


> The best post so far is the one below. I am merely adding detail to it.
> 
> You receive a constant stream of very honest feedback from your wife via:
> 1. Body language,
> ...


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Not saying this is the case here, but for a husband that may have autism or be somewhere on the spectrum this makes sexual communication damn near impossible. Since "autism" is sometimes referred to as the "male brain," women may just never understand that things need to sometimes be spelled out very clearly. This nonsense of "you just need to already know" what pleases me and NEVER EVER ASK is like being married to:


You completely misread my post. Utterly and completely.

It had nothing to do with mind reading.

It has everything to do with the FACT that his wife knows very well he desires sex. He doesn't need a "summit" with her.

The "Barrier" is that she is selfish.

Like I said, for whatever reason, you completely misinterpreted my post.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

badsanta said:


> Circling back around, the solution is still to try and be a good LISTENER. Those that have autism invariably struggle to be good listeners because a wife might be telling her husband something important for the relationship, but the only thing getting through to the husband's mind is that there is an ant carrying a crumb across the floor and if someone does not pay attention to the direction in which it is moving to find the nest there will soon be 100s more in your cabinets, OMG they will soon find the cereal boxes the kids always leave open!!!!
> 
> Cheers,
> Badsanta


Can you point me to where he said he has autism? Because I apparently missed that.


----------



## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

I'm going to venture when the "talk" happens...It will come back to him in spades. "Silly, I like you alot. But I'm just not IN LOVE with you." "And thats okay..." "I just need time to think..."

^^^That is the selfish part POI is talking about. Not a freakin' "Rain Man" moment or anything. I mean seriously, did you just call OP an "autistic child"? I hope I read that wrong....


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> The best post so far is the one below. I am merely adding detail to it.
> 
> You receive a constant stream of very honest feedback from your wife via:
> 1. Body language,
> ...


yes... but for a male mind with a tendency to be autistic when the tone of voice says "everything is fine" women are essentially lying to their spouse. Why would someone do that?

*[NOTE: the OP never claimed to have autism, this is just an illustrated example of stereotypical thinking defined as the "male" brain]*

Many husband's will take what is actually said well over and above all the other nonverbal overload of sensory input. Standing in the kitchen talking with the over fans blaring, tv going in the background, heat radiating from the stove, smells of things almost burning, wondering if someone put cinnamon in the peas, and noticing a plastic measuring cup about to melt next to an eye... the male mind may miss the fact that a wife is being irritably sarcastic when she says she does not need any help and that she is fine. Perhaps he is upset by feeling she does not want his help because she is always angered if he points out things like fruit flies getting into the ketchup and asking why she misplaced the lid.

Heaven forbid the husband ask why she is so upset at dinner. He was not allowed to help and even fussed at for trying. 

I know I get it. I am just pointing out how many women perhaps completely misunderstand the male mind as well and should watch a TV show that is called, "why can't you just be honest with me." 

Badsanta


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> Can you point me to where he said he has autism? Because I apparently missed that.


Fair enough...

I am basically referring to research that indicate that the male brain is considered autistic these days by default. 

*At no time did the OP claim to have autism.* But apparently communication does seem to be an issue. So understanding the autistic mind may be of value, at least for helping look at things with a different point of view. Many with autism are also undiagnosed and unaware.

The same analogy is often used for those that are overweight. Doctors often use diabetic research to help overweight individuals understand the principals of dieting and weight eve though no one was ever said to have diabetes or even diagnosed with it. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

badsanta said:


> Fair enough...
> 
> I am basically referring to research that indicate that the male brain is considered autistic these days by default.
> 
> ...


I'd be interested in citations for this research that says the male brain is autistic. I have two grown kids on the spectrum. None of this even makes sense for THEM, much less a regular man.

I guarantee you if he tries to have some deep sit down with his wife probing all the "barriers," she will do an inward eye roll and be even less interested.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hmmmm

M2 actively dislikes cooking. It makes her anxious. I like to cook. Always have. 

As to the overload scenario you described so beautifully below, it makes sense to me. But then, I cleanly differentiate between the necessary mechanics of life and recreational conversation. It isn’t recreational to me, when the vast majority of CPU cycles are being consumed by my need to filter out sensory distractions.

Why i gently discourage optional socializing in a high ‘noise’ environment. Where noise is absolutely not limited to acoustics. 

But this works best when you are partnered with someone with whom you have an excellent rapport. 

Last night we’re walking the return leg home. It’s gotten dark, I forgot my miners headlamp and we know there’s a puddle somewhere up ahead on the trail. M2 says: I know you have good night vision, but it’s really dark. 

So I said: No worries, I’m just gonna let you walk a couple steps ahead and listen for the sound of splashing. 




badsanta said:


> yes... but for a male mind with a tendency to be autistic when the tone of voice says "everything is fine" women are essentially lying to their spouse. Why would someone do that?
> 
> *[NOTE: the OP never claimed to have autism, this is just an illustrated example of stereotypical thinking defined as the "male" brain]*
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

If someone was with me 14 years and didn’t know what turned me on/off, what I like and dislike, and only chose to try and interview me on those topics because I’d completely shut sex down - that would not be a positive step.

And fwiw - we talk about sex same way as cooking. Partner says they like/love xyz - great. They say they don’t much like abc, you thank them for letting you know. But those conversations:
- happen along the way
- are sub 30 seconds




personofinterest said:


> I'd be interested in citations for this research that says the male brain is autistic. I have two grown kids on the spectrum. None of this even makes sense for THEM, much less a regular man.
> 
> I guarantee you if he tries to have some deep sit down with his wife probing all the "barriers," she will do an inward eye roll and be even less interested.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> \I will tell you that women don't forget conversations about sex. If you have already talked about this, she knows. She hasn't forgotten.
> 
> In fact, any woman with a basic working intelligence knows that when she marries, regular sex WILL be an expectation.
> 
> ...


OP, and all of you sexless guys, need to listen to THIS WOMAN. Those of you that still care that is...

When some of you guys give advice or come for advice I wonder if you EVER got laid in HS or Collage. 

You need to listen to what she is saying, and if it does not work, don't be a ***** and file for divorce. 

How freaking hard is this stuff...


----------



## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Taxman said:


> I found that work and kids were the best road to exhaustion. What we did, is we sent up a signal flare to both sets of parents. (We were lucky in that they lived around the corner.) Then, once the kids were settled away for a weekend of overindulgence in junk food, and adventures with gramps, (my FIL was a character, and he would take them on sales calls) we would take off for a dirty weekend out of town. A nice hotel room, a good restaurant, wine, pleasant adult conversation and use/overuse of a bed we did not have to make. We made it a firm rule that for every vacation with the kids, there was one for just us. My parents and her parents were no problem, my mother was apt to just grab the kids and wave bye, as she shut the door.
> 
> Even if you need a sitter, and take a night away, that should spark things up. Make plans, and be the man, make the reservations, get the timing right, and just go. In my experience the rewards are good.


I'm with this idea. With work, kids, the daily routine, the sex life can get out of sync and fall off a cliff. A weekend away in a city, a nice dinner, a show some drinks and relaxation. Sometimes a spark is all you need. Many years ago right after having kids hearing from so many people that sex all but disappears we committed to each other, under no circumstances sex no fewer than twice a week, typically we far exceed that but I believe the fact that we have always made it a priority has just made it a given. 

What happens sometimes is people get exhausted and stressed and sex is the last thing on their minds, but when they go ahead and just do it they end up saying I needed that. So don't take her not initiating to mean she doesn't want to or she doesn't enjoy it anymore, it has just fallen down the priority list. Be the man and initiate, and not in the, excuse me hunny would it be ok if we have sex tonight way, in the you're looking hot, lets get upstairs and **** way.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

This is starting to sound a lot like Accept Rejection.
I think OP has got that bit down.
I think he even has got it translated to read Expect Rejection.
She has already posted the sign that says, "please do not initiate sex as a kick in the crotch tends to offend"


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is why I tried to encourage the OP to drop his ego protective communication style.

Just to clarify: He’s been initiating a lot for 4 months. She’s rejected 100% of his advances. 

Her lack of initiating is not the issue. Her comfort level rejecting him is very high. 

Of course he wants a gaming strategy as opposed to just asking her: why did you stop having sex with me 4 months ago?

Maybe - he’s afraid to do that because the answer might not be: the kids, my students, life.

Half the population is below average in bed. The average guy says: sex is like pizza, it’s between good and great. There is no such thing as bad pizza. Not so sure that is true for women. 




happyhusband0005 said:


> I'm with this idea. With work, kids, the daily routine, the sex life can get out of sync and fall off a cliff. A weekend away in a city, a nice dinner, a show some drinks and relaxation. Sometimes a spark is all you need. Many years ago right after having kids hearing from so many people that sex all but disappears we committed to each other, under no circumstances sex no fewer than twice a week, typically we far exceed that but I believe the fact that we have always made it a priority has just made it a given.
> 
> What happens sometimes is people get exhausted and stressed and sex is the last thing on their minds, but when they go ahead and just do it they end up saying I needed that. So don't take her not initiating to mean she doesn't want to or she doesn't enjoy it anymore, it has just fallen down the priority list. Be the man and initiate, and not in the, excuse me hunny would it be ok if we have sex tonight way, in the you're looking hot, lets get upstairs and **** way.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> PLEASE don't do this. Like some meeting to assign chores....
> 
> I am a HD woman, and if my husband wanted to have a "sit down" to talk about our sex life I would just dry up on the spot.
> 
> ...


If she knows what she's doing (i.e. as per the above post) then as per above post she won't be "turned on" by the rhetoric.

If she does not know what she is doing, then any relevant discussion will be lost in the rhetoric.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*I'm greatly inclined to agree with those who advocate that she might be getting her emotional/physical needs met somewhere else!

Sex is a purely physiological and psychological necessity that spouses are supposed to find time to lovingly and unselfishly convey to one another.

Unless, of course, they are having that necessity met elsewhere! Always remember that aversion to spousal sex is usually the first sure sign of infidelity within their relationship!*


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

badsanta said:


> help you better understand human sexuality!


I don't think I ever will... :smile2:


----------



## Where there's a will (Feb 10, 2014)

The problem is that she is dishing out the poison and you are taking it! Be clear, she has a problem with the marriage not you. She knows this and is ok so long as you don't demand that she addresses it. The question is, are you ready to detonate your marriage?. It can go one of two ways!
Press on, only take a hard no. Bring the rejection into sharp focus and do not react hurt to rejection, that is not attractive. If this is not a wake up call then be prepared to start endgame procedure. Explain that the marriage is at an end unless she can pull it round quickly and offer to go to counselling together. At all times do not waver from this definite path. Remember that so far she is the one who has broken the marriage vows...'with my body I honour you' .. the ball is in her court. Of course you dont want to lose her, but somewhere behind her game she doesnt want to lose you, your resolve is key and there must no doubt where this is going. The alternative for you is 40 years of frustration, mood swings, some other absorbing hobby, silent stand offs, open conflict, endless beta orbiting and all the rest of it while she enjoys a life of comfort and bffs. In short, your ticket to pergatory. Aim to enact bringing your strategy to stage 2 at 6 months, set your own deadlines and stick to them. She will call your bluff so be prepared for the worst but you can be sure that tou were decisive and it was her broken promises that ended it. 
I wish you well


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Where there's a will said:


> The problem is that she is dishing out the poison and you are taking it! Be clear, she has a problem with the marriage not you. She knows this and is ok so long as you don't demand that she addresses it. The question is, are you ready to detonate your marriage?. It can go one of two ways!
> Press on, only take a hard no. Bring the rejection into sharp focus and do not react hurt to rejection, that is not attractive. If this is not a wake up call then be prepared to start endgame procedure. Explain that the marriage is at an end unless she can pull it round quickly and offer to go to counselling together. At all times do not waver from this definite path. Remember that so far she is the one who has broken the marriage vows...'with my body I honour you' .. the ball is in her court. Of course you dont want to lose her, but somewhere behind her game she doesnt want to lose you, your resolve is key and there must no doubt where this is going. The alternative for you is 40 years of frustration, mood swings, some other absorbing hobby, silent stand offs, open conflict, endless beta orbiting and all the rest of it while she enjoys a life of comfort and bffs. In short, your ticket to pergatory. Aim to enact bringing your strategy to stage 2 at 6 months, set your own deadlines and stick to them. She will call your bluff so be prepared for the worst but you can be sure that tou were decisive and it was her broken promises that ended it.
> I wish you well



yes, but do you really want your wife to _do it for you_? Pity sex and all that? That's worse than Purgatory... no sex for 4 months means only one thing: divorce. The marriage is not fixable. What he will get is some pity sex once a month, if he is lucky. Just to keep him there.


----------



## Where there's a will (Feb 10, 2014)

Pity sex and LD sex are very different animals. Without details I am hedging bets that pity sex is not an outcome in this situation. There was once a time when it was passionate and full on (big assumption I know). This is the factory settings which are the goal; sex because one is celebrating the joy of marriage. Pity sex has no place as an outcome and this would need to be called out very early on, it's basically what prostitution is; sex without love and it will be paid for in one way or another. The promise to love has been made by both partners to engage freely in rendering their bodies available to each other with respect. The path forward cannot contain the cancer of pity sex. A marriage which has worked in the past can work again pending checking and resolving baggage issues of which in this case is an unknown.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Where there's a will said:


> Pity sex and LD sex are very different animals. Without details I am hedging bets that pity sex is not an outcome in this situation. There was once a time when it was passionate and full on (big assumption I know). This is the factory settings which are the goal; sex because one is celebrating the joy of marriage. Pity sex has no place as an outcome and this would need to be called out very early on, it's basically what prostitution is; sex without love and it will be paid for in one way or another. The promise to love has been made by both partners to engage freely in rendering their bodies available to each other with respect. The path forward cannot contain the cancer of pity sex. A marriage which has worked in the past can work again pending checking and resolving baggage issues of which in this case is an unknown.



A wife who withholds sex for 4 months is not interested in sex with her husband, for whatever reason. If she's put in a corner, like many posters here say he should do, if she wants to keep the marriage going, she only has _one alternative_: pity sex. She will do that. It's happened to me. Although I never allowed our marriage to go sexless for 4 months...


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

spruce_goose said:


> I help her out as much I can around the house. I just want to know how I can play this...


How big of you.

You 'help her out around the house,' as though all the domestic chores are HERS and you're doing her a _favor_ when you 'help' her.

She works a full time job *just like you*. Correct?

Where the hell do you get off thinking you don't have a *50% SHARE* of the responsibility for all the domestic chores and child raising at home just like she does? Because you were born a male, that somehow excludes you? This isn't about 'she'll find you sexy if you mop the floor;' it's about being forward thinking enough to enjoy and expect that extra paycheck she brings home along with the usually fabulous benefits most teachers get but then suddenly acting like it's the 1950's once you're home and thinking everything is HER responsibility. That's a load of *crap*.

Maybe she's just worn out. She's got to get up and get everyone where they need to be in the morning, she's got to get to her own job and do it all day, she's got to likely bring some work home with her and on top of that, she has to menu plan and stop at the store if she needs to, she has to deal with the kids once they're all home, getting dinner ready, making sure the kids do their homework, thinking about a million details like most women have to do with regard to everyone in the household, she likely has to throw in a load of laundry while she's doing all this so your kid has her Girl Scout's uniform for Tuesday and you have clean underwear, she's got to clean up the mess after dinner, possibly get a bunch of lunches packed for school, and the endless list of chores goes *on and on and on* for her. She likely rarely has time for herself to read a book or do her nails, much less turn into a sex kitten for you at 10:00 pm when she finally gets the kids to bed. It's my bet she falls into bed totally exhausted every night.

But hey, you 'help_'_ her _when you_ _can_, so she should be grateful that you emptied the dishwasher while she's doing 16 other things - right? 

Here's a tip. Women are expected to be Super everything. Super mom, super teacher, super housekeeper, super cook, super laundress, super schedule keeper, super wife, super sex partner, super EVERYTHING. And it's exhausting!

I wouldn't be one bit surprised if she were resentful as hell at you.

How can you 'play' this? Start doing your damned SHARE. Spend less time constantly clinging to her looking for attention and actually do something *productive*.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> How big of you.
> 
> You 'help her out around the house,' as though all the domestic chores are HERS and you're doing her a _favor_ when you 'help' her.
> 
> ...



Ouch! :laugh:


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

spruce_goose said:


> GreenOrb- probably the best advice anyone has provided, re: the responsive desire. I have investigated and truly do not believe infidelity is an issue. I see an exhausted woman, dealing with anxiety most every day (she's had issues with anxiety as long as I've known her). So here's the plan, and feel free to critique: no more sappy nice guy crap (but not to the level of *******), focus on me, and after some time, a positive convo about sex and how to increase it our marriage. Ask her what are her barriers (requesting an honest response), and then suggest we pencil in a regular date and work together to make it happen. I'll give it a shot and see what happens before I think about Plan B.


Jesus. You have an EXHAUSTED woman whose overworked and feeling highly anxious about it all. Those are YOUR words!

*That's your first clue!!!*

And instead of giving a rat's ass about the *burden* she's carrying and actually trying to find a way to lessen it because that's what married people are supposed to do for each other, instead you want to ignore the facts and make it all about YOU instead, with your silly little games and pouting because you're not getting sex.

This is WHY women check out. This nonsense is exactly why.


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Jesus. You have an EXHAUSTED woman whose overworked and feeling highly anxious about it all. Those are YOUR words!
> 
> *That's your first clue!!!*
> 
> ...



I think you might be correct here... but then why doesn't she come clean? Admit it to her husband that she doesn't find him attractive anymore and move on...


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

I would not be surprised if there is a bit of resentment either, but SSGI is making a lot of assumptions here. 

Unfortunately the OP is not very forthcoming with information. So there is no way to decipher what the most likely problem is.

Hell, the OP may have cheated on her, or outright flirts with other women in front of his W. Who knows at this point. 



She'sStillGotIt said:


> How big of you.
> 
> You 'help her out around the house,' as though all the domestic chores are HERS and you're doing her a _favor_ when you 'help' her.
> 
> ...


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> How big of you.
> 
> You 'help her out around the house,' as though all the domestic chores are HERS and you're doing her a _favor_ when you 'help' her.
> 
> ...


Come on SSGI, you know as well as I do that he is probably doing more than half the house work hoping it gets him laid. 

He is acting like all the other beta male housekeepers that think housework is sexy and they don't understand why it is not...


----------



## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I've read countless threads in which the man does way more than 50% of household management/chores. We do not know yet, until we hear from OP, his level of household contribution in that way. Also how many hours a week each works.


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Livvie said:


> I've read countless threads in which the man does way more than 50% of household management/chores. We do not know yet, until we hear from OP, his level of household contribution in that way. Also how many hours a week each works.


And actually, to fix this problem, it would be better to do the chores *together* rather than do them for her. So when it's time to make dinner, you both are in the kitchen. When it's time to fold the laundry, you both are folding together. This gives you time where you're helping each other and you'll have time to talk and connect. When you do it yourself, it is just drudgery. But when you do it together, it's an enjoyable time.


----------



## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> How big of you.
> 
> You 'help her out around the house,' as though all the domestic chores are HERS and you're doing her a _favor_ when you 'help' her.
> 
> ...


For her to be rejecting him consistently for 4 months, there is a form of resentment taking place for her, so you are correct there. 

However, we do not know his level of involvement with various household and child rearing responsibilities. 

If he comes home from work, plops in the chair and orders her to fix him a sammich and bring him his beer while he sits in front of CNN and complains about the liberals or the conservatives all night - then we have our answer. 

But assuming that most normal, decent guys do perform adult responsibilities, this argument only goes so far. 

When we were in MC my wife also explained how stressed and tired she was and how much she had on her plate every waking moment of every day and that often my needs were simply an extra burden on her. 

The counselor sat and listened intently to her and then calmly and stone-faced told her that if she were a single mother she would still have to go to work, shuttle kids, fix meals, do dishes and laundry and blah blah blah on her own. 

He then asked her if I was an asset in doing the tasks of life and parenthood or if I was a liability that simply created more workload without any contribution. 

She did have to admit that I was an asset to which he replied that us divorcing would place more personal burden upon her and that any other man would also have his own set of needs to remain in relationship even if he was a better housekeeper. 

The Super Mom argument only goes so far. 

I admit that I am not a great wife and mother and my wife is clearly a better wife and mother than me. I cannot chair the PTA committee and get every kid in the neighborhood to soccer practice on time in a crisp, clean uniform that is perfectly starched and pressed and I cannot make multi-course meals with just the right amount of paprika and sage and I make not use just the right amount of Pledge when I dust so I cannot be an Assistant Super Mom and alleviate all of the pressures and anxieties that Super Moms experience day in and day out. 

But I am an adult man and a responsible and involved husband and father And there are certain things that I need in order to remain in a marriage with a woman. If a woman wants to spend 24/7 starching and pressing a 9 year old's soccer uniform and chairing every school and community committee there is and wants to shampoo the carpet every 3 days, that is her right and prerogative. 


But a man also has the right and prerogative to find a woman that wants to cuddle up to him and have a romantic and sex life with him as well and let the Super Mom make the toilets shine as bright as she wants. 

Whether people are married or single, meals need to made, dishes need to be washed, clothes need to be laundered, kids need to be cared for and shuttled to events etc etc etc

If someone wants to do those things in leu of having a marital love and sex life, that is their prerogative. But everyone also has the right to be with someone that actually wants to love them and willing to place being with them on a higher priority over making sure that the dog brush doesn't have any dog hair left in it. 


I need to eat and do dishes and take care of kids and make sure the cars have gas and oil too. But I also want to love and cuddle and make love to my wife and make sure that she gets the love and attention she wants and needs. 

If I didn't, I would expect her to find someone who will.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

wilson said:


> And actually, to fix this problem, it would be better to do the chores *together* rather than do them for her. So when it's time to make dinner, you both are in the kitchen. When it's time to fold the laundry, you both are folding together. This gives you time where you're helping each other and you'll have time to talk and connect. When you do it yourself, it is just drudgery. But when you do it together, it's an enjoyable time.


Mostly, it can be enjoyable time, but it's not an always.

For me, my first thought was it what world would that be enjoyable to me, which is shoot me now.

But, I have helped fold clothes, when we were heading for the bed, and look! There are clothes! Help me fold them?

I always know when that's coming. It happens.

On the other hand, I regularly do sweep the clothes off the bed, on to the settee, with one hand and advise, hey, the bed's clear now!

So we both don't always know how it's going to go, depending on the mood and time of day. 😎😎 true story.

But, when I do end up helping with a defined task I do it as cheerfully as possible. It may be a failing of mine to not do more, but I work a lot.

Dear W is in charge of our social life and I usually go along, but about one out of three say well sweetie you just sprung this one, I've already mapped out something else or am planning an evening at home.

The doing of tasks to earn sex doesn't work, as has been advised here. It doesn't mean one has to be rude but also not gofer and butler.

There's a balance. It takes an effort to find it, that's true.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

There are other things than housework to be resentful about.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> The counselor sat and listened intently to her and then calmly and stone-faced told her that if she were a single mother she would still have to go to work, shuttle kids, fix meals, do dishes and laundry and blah blah blah on her own.
> 
> He then asked her if I was an asset in doing the tasks of life and parenthood or if I was a liability that simply created more workload without any contribution.
> 
> ...


Counselor of the year.

Then there are those wives who feel more anxious about doing all the unnecessary crap that they feel is needed (which isn't) and therefore want credit for all the _emotional labor_ that's thrust upon them.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This reminds me of a similar thread from a couple years back. That fellow also self described as being handsome and sexless.

Finally, after he made a lot more posts complaining about being sexless, I asked him a simple question.

What does your wife dislike about you?

He wrote a list of 40+ items that she loved about him, and then threw in 2-3 minor complaints she apparently had voiced. Not a single substantive issue. 

And that was the answer right there. Being married to someone who is hyper-insecure is draining. They respond very badly to any feedback that isn’t complimentary. It’s easier to bite the pillow in and out of bed than to say: hey this isn’t working for me





oldshirt said:


> For her to be rejecting him consistently for 4 months, there is a form of resentment taking place for her, so you are correct there.
> 
> However, we do not know his level of involvement with various household and child rearing responsibilities.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I agree with this. 

It is also true, that if you smother someone, eventually they want you gone no matter how much you ease the mechanics of life for them. 

I’m not suggesting you were doing that. But you have to let someone breath if you want to connect with them. 




oldshirt said:


> For her to be rejecting him consistently for 4 months, there is a form of resentment taking place for her, so you are correct there.
> 
> However, we do not know his level of involvement with various household and child rearing responsibilities.
> 
> ...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

"He wrote a list of 40+ items that she loved about him, and then threw in 2-3 minor complaints she apparently had voiced. Not a single substantive issue. "

Not so easy always. We did the same exercise a year ago and the results were hilarious. Lots of substantial issues on both sides. This was not a "doesn't take the trash out" list.

Writing the list took a good month of weekly sessions. Which by itself is a red flag.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

MEM2020 said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> It is also true, that if you smother someone, eventually they want you gone no matter how much you ease the mechanics of life for them.
> 
> I’m not suggesting you were doing that. But you have to let someone breath if you want to connect with them.


You know, I don't read @oldshirt 's post that way. I read it as a reality of the way that some women, for some unknown ****ing reason, think. 

I will never understand that part or that percentage of women that think that way, but I have seen it a hundred times. 

Like a lot of women that just cannot figure out the realities of life, my Ex w now lives in a crappy rent house, with a 10$ an hour job, and the money I give her that is equity and retirement that she never earned or deserved and runs out in less than 6 more years. 

I am not trying to be a **** about it, but she got what she deserved for a lot of things, but frankly I am loving it. 

I know lots of people will say what a creep, and I don't care. What should be the price for someone that stole half your life and put you through hell? 

But to OS, why women, and I am sure some men as well, think that raising kids is somehow butterflies and rainbows just floors me. Then because the are "tired" they withhold sex for 4 months?????

I wish my Ex had ever tried that, she would have been out on her ass so fast...

There is just so much that I and I guess everyone will never understand...


----------



## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

You can certainly try to enhance your relationship, do more housework work, go out more, try to speak with her more, and improve your relationship. 

Otherwise though, you want to have an argument but in the context of the entire marriage, since this is a dealbreaker. So next time, she wants to go to her parents, explain you do not want to go. Not no man should ever go to his wife's family "just to do it" or because "that's what she wants," instead he should explain that if he is not into the visit that day, doing it helps no one. He can start clarifying that he will not be in the mood for the things she wants. He should terminate physical contact and reduce communication. He needs to explain things are not normal, and that she cannot treat him like garbage and expect a nice woman-friendly relationship in other areas. Start working out more, get nicer clothes, be more unpredictable.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
Just for sport - M2 would say: 
Why the heck is it so hard to get him to do his fair share of housework (which is a fair comment, I have no defense)

And I would say: why does M2 crowd me when I’m on the phone with my SISTER, and why does she pretend she isn’t jealous, when she’s so blatantly hardwired that way?

Of course we have longer flaw lists than that, but often the issue is as much the willingness to acknowledge the flaw, than the flaw itself.




john117 said:


> "He wrote a list of 40+ items that she loved about him, and then threw in 2-3 minor complaints she apparently had voiced. Not a single substantive issue. "
> 
> Not so easy always. We did the same exercise a year ago and the results were hilarious. Lots of substantial issues on both sides. This was not a "doesn't take the trash out" list.
> 
> Writing the list took a good month of weekly sessions. Which by itself is a red flag.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ah, we never had any issues acknowledging each other's faults - and positives too. What we had an issue with was living with them. 

Far be it for me to beat a dead horse, but I was far more inclined to ignore or live with her faults than the other way around. We're not talking ax murderer faults here. A lot was perception. "John is lazy". "John cares only about food and sex". And so on and so forth. 

Our FC confirmed the perception gap for both of us. But at the end of the day my list was trivial and hers wasn't. And, of course, with BPD around, her list was far more fluid than mine.

In terms of the OP, I would suggest that they actually go analytical and determine if there's a possibility of perception gap being a lot worse than reality...


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

john117 said:


> Ah, we never had any issues acknowledging each other's faults - and positives too. What we had an issue with was living with them.
> 
> Far be it for me to beat a dead horse, but I was far more inclined to ignore or live with her faults than the other way around. We're not talking ax murderer faults here. A lot was perception. "John is lazy". *"John cares only about food and sex"*. And so on and so forth.
> 
> ...


What else does one need? Really? I mean, geez, see how easy it is to keep a man happy? This ain't rocket surgery. Hell, give a guy enough of those two things and he can even do without beer and football!


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

spruce_goose said:


> Basically what I told you about her- kids, work, tired. Sex and me are not a priority. But I do know she finds confidence attractive, and she hates whiny complaining.* When I landed her first when we were dating, It was patience and had to play it extremely cool, and give her the sense I wasn’t interested.* That’s why after 14 years together I’m guessing her basic mechanics is still in there somewhere...just need practical advice how to get her to make her feel that way again. Just thinking if I made myself ‘less available’ (I know it sounds strange in a marriage). Less affection, less touchy-feely, more time being busy, etc...do you get my thinking?




That's game-playing; and I think if you have to do this to attract a partner, you won't have much of a real friendship.

Also it sounds like you played "out of your league". Like you had to come up with a strategy to win her over. This is also a forced, artificial emotional dynamic.

Is she much better looking than you, would you say?


Teachers aren't typically paid well. Do you have a high financial value compared to her? Is that why she decided to marry you?


I'm being brusque because it needs to be said; if she was never into you for YOU, on a physical level; then it's normal that eventually she won't wanna have sex with you anymore.


----------



## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Hi Spruce Goose,

You've gotten lots of good advice. I've only a few things to add. I have the perspective of being the person who had a bad sex life and didn't address it firmly, leading to wasted years with my XW. And I've been the person who learned to own my needs (and treated them as a priority) up-front. As a result, the relationships I've had since my marriage have either been much more fulfilling, or I've ended them quickly after experiencing too many deal breakers.

The first thing I recommend is being honest with yourself about what you bring to the table. Do you carry as heavy a load as your wife? Do you have a decent job, contribute to the bills, and do your share around the home too? Do you pay attention to her wants and needs as you want her to do for you? You need to be humble and take stock of yourself. If you're not an asset to the relationship (as someone else put it) then you need to fix that.

Then, you need to have a talk with your wife about your expectations. There's nothing wrong with telling her "I'm not happy with the state of our marriage. I add a great deal to the family and still my needs are ignored. My intimate needs are <fill in the blank>. I'm willing to work with you to improve our marriage, but getting to that point needs to be a goal. If you can't get there or don't want to put in the effort, then we might as well go our separate ways now".

After that, and assuming she's on board with your goals, you need to carry yourself like a person who is worthy of what he wants. Continue to do your part, but hold her accountable. If falls back into old habits and comes up short, point it out and open a discussion. It can be as simple as "we agreed to head towards ABC, and now you're doing XYZ again. That's a problem." And take it from there.

A note of caution: if (like me) you are in the habit of not advocating for yourself to avoid conflict, you might experience discomfort as you learn to treat yourself as worthy of what you seek. You will need to power through and not allow yourself fall back into bad habits.

Personally, when I went through this process I knew what I wanted from a relationship wasn't out of line or excessive, but I still had a hard time owning what I wanted and making it known.

Then, when I had overcome that inhibition, I had to learn how to stand up to push-back. I don't mean only overt opposition to my wants (although that's part of it). Also present are issues like women having hangups and competing demands on their time. I had to learn to say "I understand all that, but this is what I need to be happy and if you value me as much as you say, then I need to be a priority". And I had to learn to restate my limits and, at times, move on. And I mean saying this calmly but firmly, even when she was getting pissy about it.

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, if all this works out the way you want, you have to learn to be a good taker. It can be hard to get what you fought for and feel good about it. I still have to fight with this and it's been years that I've been back in the dating game.

An example: recently, my GF hit a rut being busier than usual (but nothing extraordinary). Over a couple of weeks she expressed a desire to have sex (and got the reaction she wanted, since sex with her is great) but then just blew it off. I mentioned it and she went on about how demanding life is, etc. I told her that behavior was a problem and left it at that. She came through soon after, pleasantly and in the mood.

The thing is that my mind started to revert back to peace-making mode. "Does she really want to do this?" "Am I being too demanding?" I had to remind myself that even if my GF had to give up some time to meet my need, I was worth it and I do so for her as well. If I had let myself revert to "peacemaker" mode, she probably would have complained "what the hell! You just complained this morning and now you're turning me down", and rightfully so. My point is that I had to fight against ingrained habits to get what I want and not make my problems worse.

Hopefully this helps. Feel free to reach out if you need anything else.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

MEM2020 said:


> This is why I tried to encourage the OP to drop his ego protective communication style.
> 
> .....
> 
> ...


It seems like you're proposing that there is a significant chance that the problem is that he's bad in bed (at least with her).

If that IS the root cause, it means one of two things:

1) He was good enough for her for 14 years (guessing without looking it up) and then, suddenly, became not good enough 4 months ago. 

2) He was good enough in bed for her to have sex with him for 14 years given other elements of the relationship but, 4 months ago, some other elements of the relationship changed so that the 'total package' was no longer enough for her to want sex with him.

I find it hard to believe that he suddenly stopped being good enough at sex 4 months ago.

I find it more likely that some other element of the relationship changed 4 months ago. But, if that's the case, then the quality of sex isn't really the issue, right? It's the 'something else'.

In short, while it's always good to be good in bed, I highly doubt that sex quality is the issue at the moment. 



MEM2020 said:


> The average guy says: sex is like pizza, it’s between good and great. There is no such thing as bad pizza. Not so sure that is true for women.


This seems to imply that the typical woman's view of sex is roughly same as the typical guy's; that it's all about the sex act with the caveat that her standards for quality sex are higher. 

I believe that, for the typical woman, there's a lot more that determines her desire to have sex with a man than the quality of the orgasm she can expect.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

For a guy who seems pretty badly in need of help, the OP has shared almost nothing of substance. 





Buddy400 said:


> It seems like you're proposing that there is a significant chance that the problem is that he's bad in bed (at least with her).
> 
> If that IS the root cause, it means one of two things:
> 
> ...


----------



## BlueandBlond (Jun 20, 2016)

I know where you are coming from as I am at the other end. The wife that has had no sex in over 6 years and only 4 times in 14 years since our son was born. Not for the lack of trying either. I have read all of the comments. There is definitely a lack of communication on her part and for what reason? There is something else going on besides kids and work. Maybe counselling should be next. We are on a waiting list and if that doesn't work as I am at the breaking point myself then it is time to go our separate ways. There has to be 100% from both sides and when one side isn't trying at all, you can't worry about it all of the time. You have to look after yourself and be there for your kids. Not easy but over time you may become resentful.


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> It seems like you're proposing that there is a significant chance that the problem is that he's bad in bed (at least with her).
> 
> If that IS the root cause, it means one of two things:
> 
> ...





I married my husband largely because of his physical attractiveness. I used to think that most women, in modern times, married for mostly the same reason.

It's been kind of astounding for me to learn over the years, that yes indeed; many, if not most women, marry for financial stability first, and sexual attraction will come secondary---or maybe not at all.

I think there are many,many women married to men whom they have little to no physical attraction for.

They hang in there, for a decade or so; perhaps faking orgasms (also, much more common than I would have thought). Then, at the onset of middle-age, these women get sick of going through the motions.

Not approving of it. It's sad. But I have had to forfeit my own beliefs on this subject. I truly thought all women who had a choice, "marry for love". That is not anywhere near the truth.


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Woman here. The two quotes below are the best. 

Also, so what if you have to initiate? Your wife may have responsive desire and your chasing her helps her become interested. If you were having little sex before, how much sex are you having now that you are playing your "I'm tired of being the one to initiate" game? NONE!

Step up and chase her again. Be playful, and don't give up. At least you will have sex again, and I'm sure both of you will enjoy it.



Taxman said:


> I found that work and kids were the best road to exhaustion. What we did, is we sent up a signal flare to both sets of parents. (We were lucky in that they lived around the corner.) Then, once the kids were settled away for a weekend of overindulgence in junk food, and adventures with gramps, (my FIL was a character, and he would take them on sales calls) we would take off for a dirty weekend out of town. A nice hotel room, a good restaurant, wine, pleasant adult conversation and use/overuse of a bed we did not have to make. We made it a firm rule that for every vacation with the kids, there was one for just us. My parents and her parents were no problem, my mother was apt to just grab the kids and wave bye, as she shut the door.
> 
> Even if you need a sitter, and take a night away, that should spark things up. Make plans, and be the man, make the reservations, get the timing right, and just go. In my experience the rewards are good.





badsanta said:


> @spruce_goose in marriages there are different "seasons" of love. Spring, summer, fall, winter, and spring and so on...
> 
> In my opinion confidence is always the best option, and you have to show her that you can love her through all those seasons (although I admit four months is really problematic!).
> 
> ...


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Araucaria said:


> Woman here. The two quotes below are the best.
> 
> Also, so what if you have to initiate? Your wife may have responsive desire and your chasing her helps her become interested. If you were having little sex before, how much sex are you having now that you are playing your "I'm tired of being the one to initiate" game? NONE!
> 
> Step up and chase her again. Be playful, and don't give up. At least you will have sex again, and I'm sure both of you will enjoy it.


It is just as wrong for you as a woman to tell him to chase her, right or wrong, as it is for a man to "Expect" sex from his wife. 

This is just one of the double standards that exist between males and females. It is not to much for a man to want his woman to initiate, just like a ton of woman want their man to listen to the drivel that comes out of their mouths. 

This is why I have never played the GIVE TO GET game with woman, and it is why there is a littered road of broken hearts for the ones that EVER tried it with me. 

Not banging on you in particular, just this female attitude in general...


----------



## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> It is just as wrong for you as a woman to tell him to chase her, right or wrong, as it is for a man to "Expect" sex from his wife.
> 
> This is just one of the double standards that exist between males and females. It is not to much for a man to want his woman to initiate, just like a ton of woman want their man to listen to the drivel that comes out of their mouths.
> 
> ...


Well.....men love females because we're.....females, :laugh: 

And then there are men who love females, but want them to act like men in women's bodies.

My husband knows I'm a package deal. :grin2:

On this thread it appears that other men feel the same way about women as my husband does.

(not mad or fighting with you either, Blues. Just speaking my mind.)

OP, there are seasons in a woman's life. It sounds like your wife is in her "maxed out, tired" season. She needs you to pick up the slack and chase her down. Tell her how much you desire and need her and that you aren't going to stop just because she is tired. Also, tell her that you respect her, and are trying to understand this phase in her life. Explain that you are going to stick by her, will make sure the two of you have sex regularly, and that she can count on you to initiate even if she is preoccupied and tired.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

BlueandBlond said:


> I know where you are coming from as I am at the other end. *The wife that has had no sex in over 6 years and only 4 times in 14 years since our son was born. * Not for the lack of trying either. I have read all of the comments. There is definitely a lack of communication on her part and for what reason? There is something else going on besides kids and work. Maybe counselling should be next. We are on a waiting list and if that doesn't work as I am at the breaking point myself then it is time to go our separate ways. There has to be 100% from both sides and when one side isn't trying at all, you can't worry about it all of the time. You have to look after yourself and be there for your kids. Not easy but over time you may become resentful.


Better lay off the hopium pipe. She doesn't have to and she knows you'll take it.

Why is that?


----------



## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

I am a firm believer that whenever sex goes stone cold dead in a marriage the possibillity that an affair is taking place should always discreetly be examined. 

Don't say never not my wife. Instead buy a good VAR and place it under her car seat. If she is up to no good you should have your answers within a week. School Teachers have a great rate of infedelity.


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> This is just one of the double standards that exist between males and females. It is not to much for a man to want his woman to initiate, *just like a ton of woman want their man to listen to the drivel that comes out of their mouths.
> *



If this is how you feel about women, then there's a good chance the women in your life pick up on that, and that it's a real turn-off.

Not saying you don't have the right to think of women as idiots; it's just that there would probably be consequences because of that.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Araucaria said:


> Well.....men love females because we're.....females, :laugh:
> 
> And then there are men who love females, but want them to act like men in women's bodies.
> 
> ...


Sugar, yes I said that, I am not married to that woman any more. I have been and never will be sexless or rejected in my entire life. I don't live that way. That littered road is from my youth and after my marriage. 

I did not divorce her for no sex, but I would have if it ever happened. I don't live that way, nor will I ever. 

Just like you espouse in your post here, men are supposed to love and respect women in the seasons of life and be understanding at all times. Your husband may be just that man, how about you try rejecting him for a month and see what happens. 

Your post describes the double standard, WE as men, have to be all understanding, always strong and you ladies get to fall apart any time you feel like it. 

THIS is the double standard... This is what I do not tolerate in my relationships. Do you feel like your husband gets all the sex he wants, or do you deny him so you can just SEE if he really loves you and stays. 

As advanced as you sound, to me, you sound like so many other woman that I have known. 

Not trying to argue, just speaking my mind...


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> How big of you.
> 
> You 'help her out around the house,' as though all the domestic chores are HERS and you're doing her a _favor_ when you 'help' her.
> 
> ...


Well said SSGI, this is the reality for many women all over the world. 
Working a full time job but still carrying the lion's share of house work and child rearing too. AND a great way to breed resentment. Why the hell should she put out when she falls into bed exhausted at the end of every day, getting sleep rather than being a receptacle for OP is probably more a priority and i wouldn't blame her. 
And to all the people on here going on about her not fulfilling her wifely duties, blah blah blah, most of you are probably men who don't have a first clue what it takes to be a mum, wife, etc or women who don't have kids and have no idea what it takes to rear them.



When is the last time OP told wifey to put her feet up and he will take over for a week. OP why don't you try it and see what it is like to walk in your wife's shoes. I know teaching is a stressful job which never ends, handling a class of 30 all day then taking home work to grade, reports to produce, etc.
Years ago, I left my kids/home to go visit my family overseas for 2 weeks. When I came back my H treated me like a queen telling me he didn't know how I did it, he was barely coping. Sex was not the first thing on his mind during those 2 weeks neither, he said he was exhausted every day. 

As some posters have pointed out, there appear to be double standards as men are supposed to be all understanding, loving and respectful. Yeah sure, but how many men actually are all understanding, always loving and always respectful? 
Therefore if the man is not all understanding, loving and respectful, there should be no sex, following that line of reasoning? I know my man has failed many many many times in that respect and yes, it makes me feel like crap and no I will not be in the mood to have sex with him. You are assuming that women think the same way as men which is ridiculous and you are also assuming that men are perfect all the time too.

OP why don't you give it a try. Tell your wife you will cover for her at home for 2 weeks, so she can have a break, do all she does.


----------



## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> It is just as wrong for you as a woman to tell him to chase her, right or wrong, as it is for a man to "Expect" sex from his wife.
> 
> This is just one of the double standards that exist between males and females. It is not to much for a man to want his woman to initiate, just like a ton of woman want their man to listen to the drivel that comes out of their mouths.
> 
> ...


There, just right there in bold, shows your attitude towards women in general. I am not a feminist but misogyny doesn't appeal to me either. 
You could be simply jaded because of your past experiences, or simply talking 'big' but to say when women speak it is simply 'drivel' makes you sound hateful. 
If my SO had that attitude towards me when I speak, he can go and not let the door hit him on the way out. 
I guess if you are really stuck and don't want to have a relationship where is requires some communication and understanding of the female species you could always go for a man instead or one of those Japanese dolls, I hear they never refuse sex and what's even better you can decide what they say and switch them off when it suits you. >


----------



## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

June Cleaver did not work outside the household.

You can be June Cleaver, or you can have a paying job.

Anyone who willingly does both...I both admire you, and kinda think you are insane.


What if the women just let the laundry pile up on the floor? What would happen the first day that the kids had to wear dirty underwear to school; or "hubs" had to rewear a shirt with a spaghetti stain on the front and stinky armpits.

How about letting the dishes go unwashed for 3 days? Everyone can futz around in the kitchen looking for clean dishes. You know, using measuring spoons to stir your coffee, eating off of coffee filters instead of plates.

Leaving the beds unmade is a no brainer; the first thing to go.

And splat under the toilet lids, water deposits in the shower. Bits of debris all over the carpet.

I used to say, "well,men do the outside stuff". But upon reflection, men's jobs are typically outsourced. We're all familiar with having the neighborhood teenager mowing the lawn and raking the leaves. It's so commonplace as to be unremarkable.

But if a typical middle-class woman wanted to get a maid service in for a couple of days a week. What? That lazy, selfish,indulgent woman. What kind of a wife is she anyway?

Men typically don't maintain the car. It's taken to the dealer/Midas/Jiffy Lube etc.

Any halfway serious home renovations have to be contracted out.

Appliances are no longer repaired; they are replaced.

Of course that standard disclaimer that some men do more than their fair share. I've heard more about them than I've actually seen in real life.

A full day of work, 4-6 more hours of laundry/dishes/dusting/vacuuming/grocery shopping/mom taxi/cooking/doing finances/helping with homework/getting bubble gum out of the dog's fur...you name it.

Then off to bed for 4-6 hours of sleep.

Why do so many women lose interest in sex? It's a mystery.

Oh, I forgot, somewhere in there, you're supposed to find time to exercise daily and wax your pubes and apply make-up and do your hair.

And don't do all of this in sweats or Birkenstocks. You should remain alluring and exciting by wearing short skirts and heels.


----------



## Coastalguy (May 15, 2018)

notmyrealname4 said:


> June Cleaver did not work outside the household.
> 
> You can be June Cleaver, or you can have a paying job.
> 
> ...


This.. 

A few years ago my wife went overseas for ten days to see a friend. I took paid leave from my corporate job to cover her business, the functioning of the household and to look after two kids around 6 and 9.

It was a shock to experience how busy her schedule is. No lengthy corporate lunches, no leisurely scrolling through a social media feed, in fact very little down time whilst the sun is up. Only when the kids were in bed and everyone had something to wear the next day, but by then sleep is calling. 
I remember grabbing the occasional energy drink after dropping the kids at school. 

That said, four months? That's too long IMO given your intimacy history to this point. 



Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk


----------



## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Coastalguy said:


> It was a shock to experience how busy her schedule is.



I've been a house husband looking after our toddler... I wasn't earning that much with my freelance job (I was at the early stages of building it), so she was at work full time whilst I struggle at home doing my job and looking after the little boy... I did this with our first child too. Incredibly exhausting. But I still had energy for sex.... :laugh: But guess what? My wife resented me because she could't stay at home with the kids... you just can't win... :smile2:


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Tiny violins playing here...

Try raising two daycare attending children largely on your own evenings and weekends, all doctor appointments, piano Kumon etc etc plus all house and yard maintenance and my share of house cleaning while working part time and going to grad school full time. In your mid to late 30s. All so that you could keep the kids off your wife's hair so she could study for her grad school.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

john117 said:


> Try raising two daycare attending children largely on your own evenings and weekends, all doctor appointments, piano Kumon etc etc plus all house and yard maintenance and my share of house cleaning while working part time and going to grad school full time. In your mid to late 30s. All so that you could keep the kids off your wife's hair so she could study for her grad school.


No sarcasm at all, your experience sounds like a holiday.


----------



## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

BlueandBlond said:


> I know where you are coming from as I am at the other end. The wife that has had no sex in over 6 years and only 4 times in 14 years since our son was born.


Hey B&B - saw this post and checked your history. You've been dealing with this issue for several years now with no positive movement - maybe a cautionary tale for the OP. What things have you tried? How do you get by and why have you stayed? Sounds so lonely and miserable and hoping the counseling goes well for you and at the very least gives insight into how this happens.


----------



## Where there's a will (Feb 10, 2014)

In the marriage vows promises are made in the frame of 'I will' rather than 'If I feel like it' . If one is going to let feelings dictate whether enthusiastic sex is going to occur on a regular basis then the vows are being broken. There were no mitigating criteria of having had a hard day as a valid excuse over prolonged periods, there is the promise to love. It is the defining of reality by the emotions that is responsible for most divorces.


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Where there's a will said:


> In the marriage vows promises are made in the frame of 'I will' rather than 'If I feel like it' . If one is going to let feelings dictate whether enthusiastic sex is going to occur on a regular basis then the vows are being broken. There were no mitigating criteria of having had a hard day as a valid excuse over prolonged periods, there is the promise to love. It is the defining of reality by the emotions that is responsible for most divorces.


Well given "I Will" regardless of whether one "feels like it".

Are you recommending marital rape?


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

aine said:


> There, just right there in bold, shows your attitude towards women in general. I am not a feminist but misogyny doesn't appeal to me either.
> You could be simply jaded because of your past experiences, or simply talking 'big' but to say when women speak it is simply 'drivel' makes you sound hateful.
> 
> If my SO had that attitude towards me when I speak, he can go and not let the door hit him on the way out.
> ...


You really have not read some of what I have written. Do you actually believe that your H wants to hear about Suzie and her husband down the road. Do you really believe that? Then you are a fool. 

We listen because we want you to have someone to talk to, we want to be there for you, sometimes it is actually interesting, but not always. 

We want to support you guys emotionally because we love you and unless the man is stupid, he know that you need some one to talk to, and emphasize with you. 

Do most men like doing it, not really, sorry it is the truth. Your husband won't tell you the truth because he thing you will with hold sex. But if you put a gun to his head, that is what he would say. 

You guys have such a double standard about things. 

Oddly enough, I actually like the things my GF says for the most part. And even then I do find myself tired of listening. 

So that you know, these situations have never happened to me, or if the ever did, the relationship ended. 

I guess that the war between the sexes continues...


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> aine said:
> 
> 
> > There, just right there in bold, shows your attitude towards women in general. I am not a feminist but misogyny doesn't appeal to me either.
> ...


I sometimes like your posts and agree with you, but between this post and the “drivel” comment, now I’m seeing through the cracks.

So sad that you apparently don’t truly enjoy conversation with your woman (except “sometimes”).

You may be surprised to know that there are men who actually couple up with women who they specifically choose because they provide each other with plentiful thoughtful and intimate conversation. About life, love, God, family, quantum physics, history, technology, psychology, and much more.

True that the same man does also want her as a fulfilling sex partner. But some men don’t couple with a woman just to get sex and then “endure” the drivel that comes out of her mouth. Some men place the intellectual connection as high as the sexual connection.

Also true that plenty of men and women are coupled with someone they don’t respect and can’t stand hearing them talk but endure it for whatever reasons. Your posts make you sound like one of these. Sorry but I don’t think you are a good example of the type of awesome lover you keep espousing yourself to be with an attitude like that about women. The same way a woman who talks about a man like a paycheck is not really a good wife.

If you don’t like what is coming out of someone’s mouth, then why on earth should they want to have sex with you? She should run for the hills.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Faithful Wife said:


> I sometimes like your posts and agree with you, but between this post and the “drivel” comment, now I’m seeing through the cracks.
> 
> So sad that you apparently don’t truly enjoy conversation with your woman (except “sometimes”).
> 
> ...


If my wife wasn't someone I could talk with at length about matters both weighty and light, she would not be my wife. If her very voice wasn't music to my mind and ears, I wouldn't have committed to spending my life with her. She often says she isn't as "smart" as me, but there are times I find her positively freaking brilliant. She stimulates me mentally as well as emotionally and physically. It really is something to behold... and quite enriching for me.


----------



## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

BluesPower said:


> We listen because we want you to have someone to talk to, we want to be there for you, sometimes it is actually interesting, but not always.
> 
> We want to support you guys emotionally because we love you and unless the man is stupid, he know that you need some one to talk to, and emphasize with you.


I think there is some underlying truth to this, but you could also flip it around as to how some women feel about sex. "We have sex with you because we know it feels good to you. We love you and know you need someone to have sex with." [Note: Just speaking in generalizations about the typical HD-LD scenario.]

The truth is that most men want the sexual level that was there at the beginning of the relationship, and most women want the emotional level that was at the beginning of the relationship. Both of those typically fade over time, but the sexual issue gets all the focus. The emotional level fades, and that's really the silent killer of the relationship. It's doubly so since the woman can typically get emotional satisfaction through her friends and such, so she doesn't get to that "emotionally starved" level like missing affection can. She's less likely to make it a point to argue about.

If men think back what it was like at the beginning of the relationship, they'll remember how their GF was always at the top of their mind. They couldn't wait to see her again. They would eagerly listen to what she was saying. They would do special little things like surprise her, give her gifts, write love notes, etc. All that typically fades, but we rarely discuss the importance of men re-establishing that later in the relationship. If it does come up, it's more about doing a token display like do more chores around the house.

For any man who is dealing with a LD wife, the first thing he should do is take an honest look at the emotional connection he has established with his W. If he treats her like a roommate, it should be no surprise that she doesn't have passion for him. He should strive to re-establish the true emotional connection they had at the beginning. Really listen to what she's saying and really be interested in it. Make her feel special in ways that she knows it's from your heart. But if all he can muster is token efforts where he listens blankly and gives flowers because that's what he's supposed to do, then fixing the problem starts with him. He should strive to change so that he acts more like a loving husband rather than a roommate wanting a FWB situation.


----------



## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Where there's a will said:


> In the marriage vows promises are made in the frame of 'I will' rather than 'If I feel like it' . If one is going to let feelings dictate whether enthusiastic sex is going to occur on a regular basis then the vows are being broken. There were no mitigating criteria of having had a hard day as a valid excuse over prolonged periods, there is the promise to love. It is the defining of reality by the emotions that is responsible for most divorces.


I get where you are coming from here but I think it's a mistake to view things this way. Love and desire by their nature aren't contractually bound or driven things, whether by marriage certificate or promises. They are constantly fluid and subject to change and somewhat conditional for everyone, even for those with the best hearts. Genuine enthusiasm can't be negotiated or mandated, only earned. Anything else or any other way is simply fake. A promise to love is really just a promise to try, but even that has reasonable limits. People fall out of love and attraction despite best intentions and for good reasons all the time. 

A defining moment in my life came when I realized that I had to continuously earn everything I got. Simultaneously freeing to know I'm 100% responsible for my happiness and have that control, but also daunting to know that I need to wake up every single day and bring it. Whether for my boss, career, wife, kids or friends. I get what I deserve and any 'equity' I have is limited to my bank and investment accounts, not feelings or relationships. Because it's important to me I invest a lot of time and effort to make sure I'm the kind of man that my wife desires and thus I reap the rewards. Labor of love for me but worth it IMO. The wife probably thinks it's effortless but that couldn't be further from the truth. I'd never sit back and rely on the promises two kids made a long time ago who didn't really know anything about life when they made them.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I think there are many,many women married to men whom they have little to no physical attraction for.
> 
> They hang in there, for a decade or so; perhaps faking orgasms (also, much more common than I would have thought). Then, at the onset of middle-age, these women get sick of going through the motions.
> 
> Not approving of it. It's sad.


The odd part is that they seem to think that the sex part is optional; that their husband should be willing to accept a sexless marriage.

They think this because many of the men they choose for "stability" don't have many other options and they're thrilled that they've finally met a woman who is willing to have sex with them. Most of these men actually are willing to accept infrequent or non-existent sex because they don't believe they have any other options (and they probably don't).


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Personal said:


> No sarcasm at all, your experience sounds like a holiday.


Really... Try playing Legos with a 2 year old while keeping an eye on the 5 year old while watching college basketball while trying to grade papers all while princess math was alone studying for hours on end. 

If that's a "holiday" for you... The 5 year old was the archetypal "spirited child", too. 12 years EACH weekly piano, Kumon, language, tutoring, gymnastics, then the usual plenty school stuff, PTO, orthodontics, checkups, college applications, college tours, college move ins or outs...

The one time princess math gave dd2 a ride to high school she ended up driving to the daycare center instead... She had NEVER once been to the elementary school (a mile away) or middle school (two miles away).

Holiday indeed.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

BigDigg said:


> but I think it's a mistake to view things this way. Love and desire by their nature aren't contractually bound or driven things, whether by marriage certificate or promises.


True, love and desire can not be based on a contract.

A willingness to try to address problems in the relationship should be though.


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > I sometimes like your posts and agree with you, but between this post and the “drivel” comment, now I’m seeing through the cracks.
> ...


Thank you! And not only are you a great example, you are far from rare.

People who don’t actually want to hear what’s coming out of their partner’s mouth have coupled badly, and no amount of sex can substitute for a fake connection that is not actually a connection. The old “I’ll endure listening to you talk just because it means you might have sex with me” is like, the worst relationship model I can think of.

I’ve never had a relationship that didn’t include frequent, stimulating conversation about a variety of meaningful topics. And I wouldn’t accept less than this.

Men who think they know how “other men” are (as in the example of Blues telling us that men don’t want to hear the drivel, they just want sex) are usually the ones who think they have it all figured out, yet they are actually just in their own bubble justifying their own life choices and claiming they are “better” in some way than “other men”.

The actual good men don’t talk this way, about women or about sex. 

Just as good women aren’t the ones who go around talking about how men are chumps and are just a penis with a wallet. Some women do say things like that. Why would we listen to a woman like that though?


----------



## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> True, love and desire can not be based on a contract.
> 
> A willingness to try to address problems in the relationship should be though.


Oh - totally agree. But even that isn't endless or unlimited. You only have the OPs side of this but who knows how long they've worked on things, or talked about things or the overt/covert messages his wife has sent (maybe for years) that went unheard or unanswered. I'd think most couples don't go 'sexless' as a starting salvo to a longer conversation or acting out, rather the final indicator that they've exhausted their hope and forced to check out. 

I've used the analogy of an illness on this - there are some illnesses that sit silent but once the symptoms start showing it's too late and very advanced. Sexless marriage is like that - once it's there you're already in bad shape and any equity to work together long dried up. Not saying it's completely hopeless but I don't think these things just magically happen one day.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> Thank you! And not only are you a great example, you are far from rare.
> 
> People who don’t actually want to hear what’s coming out of their partner’s mouth have coupled badly, and no amount of sex can substitute for a fake connection that is not actually a connection. The old “I’ll endure listening to you talk just because it means you might have sex with me” is like, the worst relationship model I can think of.
> 
> ...


My wife and I love to talk to each other and are both generally very interested in what the other has to say.

There are times though, when I'm not terribly interested in the topic she's talking about. But, I'm interested in *her*, so I listen attentively.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

On the division of work, let me offer an alternative theory... Keep in mind that I've had a couple grad courses in Work Design, as in, the guy with clipboard and stopwatch keeping track of how long it takes to make and deliver a McDonald's order (actual assignment). I generally know if someone works efficiently or they're just loafing.

On many occasions I observed S-wife doing steps in a way that was extremely inefficient. Like, silly inefficient. I'd point out politely a better way to do it, or do it just as well but in much less time. Of course it would not meet her standards (like we'd have surgery on the kitchen counter level clean).... The end result would be that she'd make herself dead tired with no energy left. Every time. Of course. The person who has energy to do 10 hours of yardwork (just like me) would have no energy left for... You get the idea. Every weekend. 

Also I found her repeatedly cleaning stuff that is clean, just to make work and crash at night.

I've done more than my share of chasing toddlers around in a 72F playroom and I'll take that any time over pressure washing the deck in the sun at 90F. I'm not saying all women are like that, but I have my own thoughts as to what "division of labor" really is.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Man, just say 'nuff talk, let's get nekkid.

PS I skipped a few posts, if this has been said before, my apologies 😎😎😎😎


----------



## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

I would play it like this:

You: Hey wife, can you sit down and talk with me for a few minutes?

(wife sitting)

You: I've noticed that you don't seem very into being intimate with me anymore. Is there any specific reason?

Wife gives her reasons; you listen to those reasons. If they're legitimate concerns, you guys work through them, or take steps towards that. 

If they aren't legitimate, you say: I cannot live in a sexless marriage any longer, so if this is what you would like, then we need to part ways.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

john117 said:


> On the division of work, let me offer an alternative theory... Keep in mind that I've had a couple grad courses in Work Design, as in, the guy with clipboard and stopwatch keeping track of how long it takes to make and deliver a McDonald's order (actual assignment). I generally know if someone works efficiently or they're just loafing.
> 
> On many occasions I observed S-wife doing steps in a way that was extremely inefficient. Like, silly inefficient. I'd point out politely a better way to do it, or do it just as well but in much less time. Of course it would not meet her standards (like we'd have surgery on the kitchen counter level clean).... The end result would be that she'd make herself dead tired with no energy left. Every time. Of course. The person who has energy to do 10 hours of yardwork (just like me) would have no energy left for... You get the idea. Every weekend.
> 
> ...


Sounds kina' familiar.

My wife would say "I don't have your energy so you can't expect too much."
My response: "If you have such limited energy, then it would behoove you to use it as efficiently as possible."
Her response "It's my energy. You have no grounds to tell me how to use it."

"Well... if there's none left over for your partner when there could be, then that's a problem..."


----------



## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Faithful Wife said:
> 
> 
> > Thank you! And not only are you a great example, you are far from rare.
> ...


Thank you!!

Yes I feel the same. There are times when we are low in energy that we may just be listening because it’s polite, but we are not disinterested. And we certainly don’t consider what the other is saying to be “drivel”. Nor are we just tolerating their “drivel” until they shut up so we can have sex. 

It’s disingenuous to consider someone’s words to be “drivel” but then keep that information hidden from them, just to keep your chances at trying to **** them as high as possible. Just let them move on so they can find someone who isn’t duping them.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Faithful Wife said:


> I sometimes like your posts and agree with you, but between this post and the “drivel” comment, now I’m seeing through the cracks.
> 
> So sad that you apparently don’t truly enjoy conversation with your woman (except “sometimes”).
> 
> ...


I don't think you really read what I said here and else where. Which is fine. 

Here is the deal. I actually like women, all of them, except my Ex W. And I am being a little sarcastic, so there is that. 

But if you want to think, "some of the women here", that your man loves listening to everything you say, come on. 

We do that because we love you. Now like you say, with your guys - and me with my GF - wow, we have really great conversations. Long deep, fun, romantic, political. All of it. She is super bright, passionate about her work, excellent at what she does, I mean I would not be with her if we did not have those things. 

But as wonderful as she is, sometimes, it is tiring to listen about everything. It just is. One study says that that woman have 20,000 words that they need to get out in a day. Men have 2000. 

At some point every man can get tired of listening, but you know what, the smart ones keep listening because we understand that you girls need that. Since we love you, we do it. 

But guess what, if my GF did not think I was hot as ****, and want to bang my brains out, I would not be with her.

So take it for what you will...


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

wilson said:


> I think there is some underlying truth to this, but you could also flip it around as to how some women feel about sex. "We have sex with you because we know it feels good to you. We love you and know you need someone to have sex with." [Note: Just speaking in generalizations about the typical HD-LD scenario.]
> 
> The truth is that most men want the sexual level that was there at the beginning of the relationship, and most women want the emotional level that was at the beginning of the relationship. Both of those typically fade over time, but the sexual issue gets all the focus. The emotional level fades, and that's really the silent killer of the relationship. It's doubly so since the woman can typically get emotional satisfaction through her friends and such, so she doesn't get to that "emotionally starved" level like missing affection can. She's less likely to make it a point to argue about.
> 
> ...


And here is where the "GIVE to GET" mentality breaks down. I don't listen to my GF so that she will give me sex. For the most part I actually do love our conversations. I don't cook for her to get sex, I don't rub her back, or rub lotion all over hey body to get sex. I don't take her to dinner and dancing or anything else to get sex. 

I don't treat her with love and respect to get her to give me sex, I do those things because I love her. 

She needs to want to have sex with me, regularly, or I don't hang around. 

I have never been with a woman that "Gives" me sex. I have been with a lot of women, with whom I have "HAD" sex with, and they wanted to "Have" sex with me.

This is the difference that most people do not seem to understand. For me it is simple, but others think I am crazy...


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Personal said:


> Well given "I Will" regardless of whether one "feels like it".
> 
> Are you recommending marital rape?


You did not say that... Please tell me you did not say that. 

You know that is not what he meant...


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Personal said:
> 
> 
> > Well given "I Will" regardless of whether one "feels like it".
> ...


What a ridiculous, inflammatory leap.

SURELY personal is smarter than that...,


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> "He wrote a list of 40+ items that she loved about him, and then threw in 2-3 minor complaints she apparently had voiced. Not a single substantive issue. "
> 
> Not so easy always. We did the same exercise a year ago and the results were hilarious. Lots of substantial issues on both sides. This was not a "doesn't take the trash out" list.
> 
> Writing the list took a good month of weekly sessions. Which by itself is a red flag.




Do you have those lists? Would be interesting to see/compare them...(yes I’m nosey as ****).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> How big of you.
> 
> You 'help her out around the house,' as though all the domestic chores are HERS and you're doing her a _favor_ when you 'help' her.
> 
> ...




How much do you charge for counselling sessions? I will bring my own chastity key  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> What else does one need? Really? I mean, geez, see how easy it is to keep a man happy? This ain't rocket surgery. Hell, give a guy enough of those two things and he can even do without beer and football!



I can probably even go without food, if I get to eat her daily. (Too much? 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> This is just one of the double standards that exist between males and females. It is not to much for a man to want his woman to initiate, just like a ton of woman want their man to listen to the drivel that comes out of their mouths.



Haha, comparison of the week. You, sir, got a pair of shiny balls on you. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Ursula said:


> I would play it like this:
> 
> You: Hey wife, can you sit down and talk with me for a few minutes?
> 
> ...


I do agree with this and it may actually work great if she actually tells you the truth. 

My guess will be more blah, blah, blah. He bends over backwards to deal with them over the next few months and nothing improves. 

You know... because...












Ursula said:


> If they aren't legitimate, you say: I cannot live in a sexless marriage any longer, so if this is what you would like, then we need to part ways.


Don't say this unless you are prepared to actually do it.

If you are not currently, then get prepared.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> Do you have those lists? Would be interesting to see/compare them...(yes I’m nosey as ****).
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My positives according to her as of last count:

- resourceful
- creative
- intelligent
- great father
- patient
- gets things done

My negatives:

- Lazy
- Messy
- Plays video games a lot
- Not ambitious
- Not trustable
- Spendthrift

Of course, the two lists are inconsistent to begin with, and only the not ambitious part was in my list.... Not to mention that she trusts nobody, and her idea of clean is OCD... 

Sex had nothing to do with how we ended up.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> It is not to much for a man to want his woman to initiate, just like a ton of woman want their man to listen to the drivel that comes out of their mouths.



To be fair, I also prefer what comes in rather than what comes out of her mouth   

I do need to have conversations with her though (and it better be not about Susie down the road! Sick of her!!) otherwise I get thumb arthritis typing misogynist crap on TAM instead.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

john117 said:


> - Plays video games a lot



Really?  This one surprised me. Did she confuse you programming a robot with playing video games?

But seriously, you said her list had more substance? I don’t see much.
At least not something you divorce over.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> If my wife wasn't someone I could talk with at length about matters both weighty and light, she would not be my wife. If her very voice wasn't music to my mind and ears, I wouldn't have committed to spending my life with her. She often says she isn't as "smart" as me, but there are times I find her positively freaking brilliant. She stimulates me mentally as well as emotionally and physically. It really is something to behold... and quite enriching for me.




Oh stop it 🤢🤮🤮 (joking. Well done  

*sorry for the black thumbs up. They don’t get used as much compared to the other ones which I think is a bit racist 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> My wife and I love to talk to each other and are both generally very interested in what the other has to say.
> 
> 
> 
> There are times though, when I'm not terribly interested in the topic she's talking about. But, I'm interested in *her*, so I listen attentively.



Exactly. The drivel comment is getting taken way out of proportion. 
My wife sometimes makes me repeat back what she said, possibly because I must have fallen asleep. But I am a very attentive sleeper. I can repeat anything she said back in my sleep!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> One study says that that woman have 20,000 words that they need to get out in a day. Men have 2000.



That’s way too....




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I have been playing video games since the mid 70s... At one point I had an awesome online backgammon ranking, the university high score in Pacman, and I'm a proud member of my country's national team in Angry Birds 2, ranked in the top 100 teams in the world . I'm pretty good.

I feel all her views of me are pretty substantially negative... Not trustable? FML. And, moreover, nothing I could do would change her opinions. Lazy? Not ambitious? Yeah, meaning I don't want to work gulag hours... Spendthrift? Someone has to be.

So, am I prime Tam dating material or swipe at will?


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Sounds kina' familiar.
> 
> My wife would say "I don't have your energy so you can't expect too much."
> My response: "If you have such limited energy, then it would behoove you to use it as efficiently as possible."
> ...


That seems like a persuasive last response.

Why, exactly, did that not have any impact whatsoever?


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> Haha, comparison of the week. You, sir, got a pair of shiny balls on you.


 @inmyprime... don't you know better than to side with me. The ladies don't like hearing the truth and the sexless guys will jump you.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Because even though he is right...by it's merits, being right does not wet panties.

The only real answer is to have something in your life more important than sex and your wife's needs.

And that alone only solves the resentment side of the equation, not the frequency/enthusiasm side.


Buddy400 said:


> That seems like a persuasive last response.
> 
> Why, exactly, did that not have any impact whatsoever?


Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

BluesPower said:


> @inmyprime... don't you know better than to side with me. The ladies don't like hearing the truth and the sexless guys will jump you.



The sexless guys don’t hate you as much as you think. And no, nobody likes to hear the truth. Though to be fair, truth is relative to the observer.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> The sexless guys don’t hate you as much as you think. And no, nobody likes to hear the truth. Though to be fair, truth is relative to the observer.


Thanks, just trying to protect you...:smile2:

The thing is, being liked of not liked is an issue for me, never has been. And to me, truth is truth, and it is black and white. 

Opinions are relative, which makes the world fun...


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

There's very little black and white in human psychology... Just sayin'...


----------



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

So there is a new documentary series on Netflix by CNN call "Sex & Love around the World." I watched one episode and I think the purpose is to explore/compare history and current cultures attitudes towards female pleasure. 

The first episode was Japan in which the documentary states that sexless marriages are the norm. The women interviewed do not even want sex with their husbands because it would just be awkward after not doing it for ten years or so. However these same women have no qualms about working as a prostitute to enjoy the affection of men, or keeping a concubine so-to-speak of boyfriends. All this is done is secret and easily hidden from husbands because the topic of sex in marriage is simply not discussed in Japan. 

So your marriage is sexless? When is the last time you even had sex? Oh! Really! ...










Made me wonder how many threads on TAM originate from cultures very different than that of the people offering advice and trying to help. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Culture is the key, unfortunately not a whole lot of Tam folk grasp it as such.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

john117 said:


> My positives according to her as of last count:
> 
> - resourceful
> - creative
> ...


It's the video games 😉😉


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

farsidejunky said:


> Because even though he is right...by it's merits, being right does not wet panties.
> 
> The only real answer is to have something in your life more important than sex and your wife's needs.
> 
> ...


Well said. 

At times, does one want to be right, or want to get laid?
hmmmm?


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

badsanta said:


> The first episode was Japan in which the documentary states that sexless marriages are the norm. The women interviewed do not even want sex with their husbands because it would just be awkward after not doing it for ten years or so. However these same women have no qualms about working as a prostitute to enjoy the affection of men, or keeping a concubine so-to-speak of boyfriends. All this is done is secret and easily hidden from husbands because the topic of sex in marriage is simply not discussed in Japan.


A few years back, I read something about this going on in Japan. That is pretty messed up.

Why get married at all?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> It's the video games


Yet my career in user experience was literally launched from video games. Go figure


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Tron said:


> A few years back, I read something about this going on in Japan. That is pretty messed up.
> 
> Why get married at all?


That got me interested and I just read some articles on that. The statistics regarding Japanese virgins are pretty staggering too.

According to a government survey, they claim that 42% of men and 44.2% of women -- almost half of Japan's millennial singles aged between 18 to 34 -- are virgins.

:surprise:

https://www.cnn.com/2016/09/20/asia/japanese-millennials-virgins/index.html


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

farsidejunky said:


> Because even though he is right...by it's merits, being right does not wet panties.
> 
> The only real answer is to have something in your life more important than sex and your wife's needs.
> 
> ...


Very true that being right or logical doesn't count for anything. And, it's certainly not going to get him laid.

But, I am kind of curious to know what she came up with as a response.

I mean, if my wife often came home from work wanting to talk about her day and I said 'No' because I only have a certain capacity to talk to people and I've used it all up that day (and I said this every day). And then, if she became aware that I was talking a lot to cashiers and homeless people.......

I couldn't have an answer for that, right? I might have to cough up the fact that I really just don't like talking to her.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

DOTS. Depends on the situation.

Four months of sexlessness, to include rejection, with no communication? I wouldn't care to be right, wrong or indifferent. My wife would never see me. I would be finding interesting things to do solo or with B12.

If she communicated to me reasons, to include medical or things I may or may not be doing, that would be a different matter entirely.



Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Well said.
> 
> At times, does one want to be right, or want to get laid?
> hmmmm?




Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> Very true that being right or logical doesn't count for anything. And, it's certainly not going to get him laid.
> 
> But, I am kind of curious to know what she came up with as a response.
> 
> ...


She really had no other response than to say it takes even more energy to plan how to most efficiently employ her limited energy!

Classic circular reasoning, and it's pretty hard to bust into that circle. It's tight!

Fortunately, things are _much _better now.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

It all seems to be the wrong way around:

Before marriage, girls tend to have too much sex too soon. After marriage, too seldom and not enough.  what’s going on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> It all seems to be the wrong way around:
> 
> Before marriage, girls tend to have too much sex too soon. After marriage, too seldom and not enough.  what’s going on.
> 
> ...


It is called the sales pitch The biological clock ticks loudly approaching 30. Once that prime directive has been achieved for a subset of women of some size, it's basically all over, the guy has fulfilled his purpose.


----------



## VermiciousKnid (Nov 14, 2017)

Because she doesn't initiate doesn't mean she doesn't want it. She may love that you desire her and pursue her. The game you're playing now might be a very dangerous one. If I didn't initiate sex with my wife then I'd have sex maybe twice a year. It's not her personality to be the sexual aggressor. She loves sex and we have sex all the time, but I always initiate. That's how our relationship dynamic works. It appears that's how yours was working until you decided to break it. I advise you to un-break it before you do real damage to the relationship.


----------



## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

VermiciousKnid said:


> Because she doesn't initiate doesn't mean she doesn't want it. She may love that you desire her and pursue her. The game you're playing now might be a very dangerous one. If I didn't initiate sex with my wife then I'd have sex maybe twice a year. It's not her personality to be the sexual aggressor. She loves sex and we have sex all the time, but I always initiate. That's how our relationship dynamic works. It appears that's how yours was working until you decided to break it. I advise you to un-break it before you do real damage to the relationship.




Yes, very much so: very important to determine this. Because lack of initiation is not always for the lack of wanting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

spruce_goose said:


> GreenOrb, you are closest to understanding my situation. She is a grade 7 teacher, and we do have kids, and she’s tired a lot, but she has never made sex a priority after our last kid. I agree about the initiating. She’s very conservative (not politically, but you know what I mean- that’s why I don’t think an affair is the issue) so that doesn’t surprise me. I help her out as much I can around the house. I just want to know how I can play this...


Some food for thought.
When I was dating I could pick up a chick for a date after she did a 12 hour shift and she will still ready for enthusiastic sex. After 5+ years of marriage that spark is gone and it becomes a game of "find the perfect time where she isnt tired, etc.. etc.."

Ultimately, you are no longer that hot hunk that boosted her sexuality and energy levels.... Your the cute family dog that bothers her with his simple needs (food, and take me outside)

Read the married man sex life primer... then read it again...


----------

