# Husband not a gentleman?



## martita

Hi guys, i will try to make this short. 
Ill start by saying my husband is a good man. Hard worker, good with his family and mine and wouldnt do anything to hurt me on purpose. Weve been married 3 years.
Ever since ever, ive noticed that he was never a gentleman with me. By gentleman i mean chilvarous. I tried to pay it no mind. Ive had male friends open doors for me, walk on the road side of the sidewalk for me etc. it makes me feel good.
Its been a fee times already that we are with our group of friends and in opportunities where for example i arrive (late due to work) and theyve all eaten already, including my hubby, i grab a plate and theres nowhere to sit so i just eat standing up...one of our guy friends gives me his seat and calls out my husband for it jokingly. My husband always says "i was about to do it" but i know he wasnt because a good minutes passes by before someone else does it. Or if theres only one seat available somewhere, he takes it. All those times, especially when they call him out on it makes me feel embarrased. Another time i asked him as a favor if he could scort me to the bathroom in a bar i wasnt familiar with, he refused bcuse he didnt want to get up. 
Everytime i see our friends being courtious with their women it makes me feel sad and kind of like he doesnt care about me being treated with such attention. Ive talked to him about it and he says he doesnt notice that hes being sort of "rude" to me or that he forgets to do those things. Ive asked him if he could be a lil more gentleman with me and he agreed. 
It didnt last very long though  he still wont even open car doors for me unless another couple eho happens to do it is with us.
I know its not a big deal, but it makes me feel so...unimportant. Like i dont deserve that treatment. And this one last time made me feel incredibly hurt for some reason,and he doesnt care that im upset about it. 
I know i married him knowing this but, shouldnt a man want to treat the woman he loves with those types of gestures? 
I just feel so sad when i see other men do it because it looks like theyre so in love with their partners and caring.
If theres any men here, what could a woman do to inspire you to start doing those things for her?


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## frusdil

It is a big deal though, I understand what you mean and why you'd feel loved if he does those things. I'd be terribly hurt if my husband behaved like yours.

It doesn't appear that he's going to change either - if his friends calling him out on it doesn't have any effect, I don't know what will.

How do you treat him generally? Are you a loving wife? Do you pamper him? Only asking because it may show the answer - he may feel that you don't do enough for him so he doesn't do it for you...not saying that's the case, just asking the question.


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## unbelievable

Proper manners are something folks usually learn from their parents and that happens before age 5. Maybe this man was raised by wolves or perhaps there were no decent men in his field of vision during his formative years. Not sure what can be done at this point, but for future reference, if a gentleman is what you want, that's what you ought to be dating. You should be able to identify someone with manners within about 5 seconds of meeting them. 
The OP may have already tried this, but maybe explaining to him that she feels small, unappreciated, uncared for, and neglected when he behaves like some pirate who's never met a decent woman before might get the job done. Pick a guy from Tennessee if the opportunity ever presents itself again. Our men usually have mothers who raise their sons to behave like human beings around women. Watching his wife stand and eat while he sits on his wazoo? Are you serious?


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## batsociety

So he's never been the chivalrous type, this isn't a new development. 

Honestly OP, there isn't a whole lot of people who are typically chivalrous anymore. When you spoke to him about it, he probably didn't deliberately ignore your request. It's hard to learn new behavior, especially when so many aspects of that behavior are things that are usually done without thought (eg which side of the sidewalk you walk on). 

I wouldn't say that he loves or cares for you any more or less than those who do exhibit this behavior.


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## delupt

First off, to play devil's advocate, I happen to think there is no greater insult than 'chivalry'. Now, some of your husbands actions do seem a bit 'jerk', but men in equitable partnerships do not have to run their lives for the benefit of the woman and her whims. Does he demand certain behaviours from you? And if he is already a 'nice guy', if you successfully modify his behaviour to force this gentlemanly stuff, the relationship could tail-spin. 

Maybe you live in very conservative environment with 'noble' men and 'delicate' women where this is the norm, but opening a car door? walking on the road so a woman has the sidewalk? These seem like mild sh!t-tests rather than loyalty-tests to me. And they verge on becoming the ridiculous: 'he always leaves the toilet seat up'.

If some small gestures are very important to you, then I suggest trying to talk through a few to explain why, and that him satisfying them will enable you to make similar gestures for his benefit.

As for other men shaming him for not being a 'gentleman', well, I do not have the words, these white knights disgust me.


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## coffee4me

martita said:


> If theres any men here, what could a woman do to inspire you to start doing those things for her?


I agree with unbelievable, unfortunately for you I do not think a woman inspires a man to behave like a gentleman. It's taught from a young age, by the time they are adults it's second nature. My son just turned 17 and its his nature to do all the things you listed that you consider gentlemanly. Your husband was never taught these behaviors and therefore it doesn't occur to him to make these gestures. 

Your post had me wondering how old you are as I believe in the younger generations, we will see much fewer men raised to make these types of gentlemanly gestures.


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## Marduk

So you married a good dude who never did this kind of stuff for you, and now you're mad about it?

Why is this important to you now?


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## Openminded

People rarely change for the better after marriage. A few might but they are usually very motivated to do so. 

Women, especially, think we can make a good person better. The old saying that a man marries hoping his wife won't change and a woman married hoping her husband will change has a lot of truth in it. 

Many of the males of his generation have not been brought up the way most of the males in my generation were. The females in my generation might have been treated for the most part like we were made of spun sugar and very fragile but we also had problems with equality to deal with. 

You've told him it bothers you and it's made no difference. You need to accept him as he is.


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## cons

Anytime someone (man or woman) starts doing comparative analysis within their relationship, you focus on the have nots and then lose focus on choosing to love your significant other.

My husband will inevitably fall short in some area or another if I compare him to another. I know I would also fall short if my husband did the same. 

I chose my husband...therefore, my actions will drive me toward that choosing. There's not need for me to compare him against others (I didn't choose others, anyway, so why work so hard at it).

I'd spend more time about changing my own mindset on how to love up on him.


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## jld

You don't need to stay with him if you don't want to. I would not want to be with a boor, either.


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## SamuraiJack

cons said:


> Anytime someone (man or woman) starts doing comparative analysis within their relationship, you focus on the have nots and then lose focus on choosing to love your significant other.
> 
> My husband will inevitably fall short in some area or another if I compare him to another. I know I would also fall short if my husband did the same.
> 
> I chose my husband...therefore, my actions will drive me toward that choosing. There's not need for me to compare him against others (I didn't choose others, anyway, so why work so hard at it).
> 
> I'd spend more time about changing my own mindset on how to love up on him.


Yes. 
In addition to this I would start to think about meeting him halfway. Sometimes we need to do for others to illustrate how we need to be treated.

If you want him to aspire to these things, then you need to let him KNOW that these are things that make you feel loved.

"Husband, I feel very loved when you hold the door for me."
"Husband, I love it when you do X for me. It shows how much you appreciate me and I appreciate it in return."
"Darling, when you walk near to the road I feel very loved. Its a small thing but it means a lot to me."


You will find that an honestly greatful wife with these phrases will get a good deal of her wishes granted...as will an honestly greatful man in the same situation.


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## turnera

First, you knew this before you got married. So it's pointless to complain. Did you marry him, thinking you would change him? Fastest way to divorce.

That said, you CAN make it clear what you expect in terms of decency, by expressing your boundary and then ENACTING a CONSEQUENCE if it doesn't happen. Just make sure this is something you're willing to get divorced over. 

A boundary/consequence would look like this: "H, we've talked about this before. It really bothers me that you won't get up and give me your seat when I come in and there are no more seats. It embarrasses me. So to avoid getting full of resentment for you - and who knows where that will lead - here's what I have to do: If I come home or to wherever you are, there are no seats, and you don't recognize that I'd like to sit down and you don't offer me your seat, I'm going to just assume that event is not something I need to be at, and I'm going to excuse myself and go home/to the other room. I'm just letting you know so that, if I leave in the future, you'll know why."

That gives him notice of what's important to you, gives him autonomy to make his own decision, and then allows you to then take an action that removes you from the drama. Now, the trick is that once you do this, you aren't allowed to then sit in that other room and stew on it and get even madder at him that he didn't run after you. This is NOT a sh*t test; it's a boundary that you enact to protect yourself.

Finally, though, you have to be able to look at this from HIS perspective. Which you don't seem to be trying to do. There are a dozen reasons he could be doing this, and until you actually ASK him and understand his side, taking this action will only harm y'all's relationship and move you to combatants' corners instead of together as a team.


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## unbelievable

There may be hope for this guy. His behavior sounds like it gets better when he's around civilized males. It's a little late for getting raised, but if the Army can transform adult civilians into soldiers, complete with military manners and values, it's obviously possible for a butt scratching Neanderthal to transform into an adult male with minimally acceptable manners.


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## NobodySpecial

If it were me, I would choose to appreciate the good things that he is and does and not worry about the window dressing which door opening and the like is IMO. My two cents.


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## SimplyAmorous

I married a Gentleman.. he is one who would automatically give me his coat if he sensed I was cold, his seat if there was one, walk on the more dangerous side of the road, that sort of thing...it seems to be in his DNA...he's always been this sort of man. 

I would say this flows out into so many other areas of his behavior.. it does make a woman feel "special", very cared for.. and this doesn't mean his woman is weak and delicate either.. I'm not one of those afraid to get my hands dirty, break a nail or any such thing...Goodness. I'd work in the trenches with my man... 

One thing I have never understood though.. is caring about the man getting our car door...I was just talking to my H sitting here -this will sound awful.. IN our beginning he was doing that.. he said I "gave him hell"...that I put a stop to that. (he's exaggerating here)....but it's true.. I've just always felt that is a waste of time. ...feeling I can do that myself.. ha ha... Other things though, I have surely appreciated ... I was always one to speak up. if I liked something or not. 

Besides your H not being chivalry in these instances you mention... I would ask about OTHER things.. the really important things..* do you feel LISTENED TO?... Does he give you his TIME.. is he affectionate...not demeaning in his speaking to you.*... putting aside these smaller gestures..* how is your connection?*

I think with anyone we are married to, we would choose to tweak a few things.. Frankly I would minus a few chivalry traits in my own H and UP a few aggressive ones (in the bedroom) -if I was able to wave a magic wand ..but ya know.. we learn to appreciate the Good...and realize none can be "everything".. 

My H would probably have ME be kinder to the kids on occasion or not worry so much - we all have some flaws somewhere.


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## turnera

The flaw I saw was that she came in, he continued sitting and carrying on as though she wasn't there. That can be pretty humiliating. Maybe there's a bigger issue here.


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## unbelievable

This really not a matter of assuming women can't do things. My wife can put on her own coat, open her own doors, pull out her own chair, and she won't melt if it rains on her. She won't die if she's a little chilly. Having said that, she won't end her day wondering if anyone gives a rat's behind about her as long as I'm married to her or even still in her vicinity. Manners isn't about assuming others are weak or that you're stronger. It's just about acknowledging the significance of other people and not behaving like you're the only person on earth.


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## unbelievable

It's probably more convenient for everyone if she gets her caring from her husband. He's the one who accepted the position.


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## readyforit

martita said:


> I know i married him knowing this but, shouldnt a man want to treat the woman he loves with those types of gestures?
> I just feel so sad when i see other men do it because it looks like theyre so in love with their partners and caring.
> If theres any men here, what could a woman do to inspire you to start doing those things for her?


Well, why were you willing to accept this lack of gentlemanly conduct in the beginning but not now? Is this a symptom of a bigger problem? Is i possible that he's no longer meeting your needs in other ways that he used to?

If you feel like your needs are honestly cared about and meet by him except for this, then focus on that and realize that just because it looks good from the outside, it doesn't mean anything. My H opens doors doors and gives up his seat abd does all of that gentleman stuff in public. In reality reality, we've had sex about 4 times in the last 6 months abd and are looking at starting D proceedings this month. He does the gentlemanly stuff because that's how he was raised and he does that for any woman, but it doesn't make him a good H. 

Since your H want raised to do these things, if you really want him to change abd he really wants to change, then create opportunities for him to the gentleman. Wait outside the car or a building to give him a chance to remember. If he had a seat abd you're left standing, politely ask him if he minds letting you sit. Don't harp on him and don't get mad when he forgets, but don't forget to thank him sincerely when he remembers. It's not likely he will ever be that chivalrous person you want, but it's up to you to decide how much that really matters and if you really can't live with it, Then it's best to get our early and before there are any kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## scatty

I certainly don't think it makes me look "weak" to expect to be treated with respect. Everyone has different ideas of how they would want to be treated/respected. 

For me, it makes me feel like I am cared for. Other women might (and have) been insulted or feel belittled by such behavior. My man KNOWS I can manage to open a door or go to a restroom by myself. But he also knows I feel special when he does these things and still insists on doing them even now that he is disabled. I also treat him like a king, so maybe that has a lot to so with it.

Whew..now on to the advice to the OP. You can't change him, but you may be able to express that it means a lot to you and is one of your needs and ask him if he has any needs that you are not meeting. Also, if you don't have a seat and he won't get up for you, either ask him to please give you the seat or sit on his lap. Good luck!


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## Cletus

Sorry, but this just sounds like a natural byproduct of the ongoing equalization between the sexes in our society. The kind of behavior you're seeking is essentially putting a woman on a pedestal. As women are rightly seen as equals to all men, you'll see pedestal behavior disappear from our culture.

Personally, I think this is a good thing. I had to learn how to iron my own shirts, why shouldn't my wife learn how to open her own doors? Whichever of us gets to the door first can hold it open for the other, as a show of consideration. Why must it be one sided?


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## unbelievable

Cletus said:


> Sorry, but this just sounds like a natural byproduct of the ongoing equalization between the sexes in our society. The kind of behavior you're seeking is essentially putting a woman on a pedestal. As women are rightly seen as equals to all men, you'll see pedestal behavior disappear from our culture.
> 
> Personally, I think this is a good thing. I had to learn how to iron my own shirts, why shouldn't my wife learn how to open her own doors? Whichever of us gets to the door first can hold it open for the other, as a show of consideration. Why must it be one sided?


Manners are just simple courtesies (and yeah, that word "court" is right in there for those who are hung up on class inequalities). I say, "Sir" and "Ma'am", "Thank you" and "please". I don't let a door slam in the face of a woman but I also wouldn't let one slam in your's. If your wife has a flat tire, I'll offer to change it for her, but I won't likely just drive on past if you have one. I'll give up my seat to your wife or your daughter but I'll also do the same for your father or grandfather. Of all the problems we have in this world, people being too courteous isn't one of them.


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## jld

Cletus said:


> Sorry, but this just sounds like a natural byproduct of the ongoing equalization between the sexes in our society. The kind of behavior you're seeking is essentially putting a woman on a pedestal. As women are rightly seen as equals to all men, you'll see pedestal behavior disappear from our culture.
> 
> Personally, I think this is a good thing. I had to learn how to iron my own shirts, why shouldn't my wife learn how to open her own doors? Whichever of us gets to the door first can hold it open for the other, as a show of consideration. Why must it be one sided?


Because it is boring the other way?

Honestly, I can hardly think of anything more boring than 50/50, split down the middle, equal in every way marriage.


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## turnera

I can't think of anything more desirable.


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## ConanHub

turnera said:


> The flaw I saw was that she came in, he continued sitting and carrying on as though she wasn't there. That can be pretty humiliating. Maybe there's a bigger issue here.


Yup.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyT

Focus on the good stuff, the reasons you married him. And praise him for any and all gentlemanly actions he makes for you...every time. And maybe lower your expectations..... walk you to the bathroom? Never heard of that. 

My husband is very gentlemanly..... but he didn't grow up saying "Bless you" when someone sneezes. It didn't bother me, but it was my habit.... which after ten years has caught on. Now, I get blessed.  

Be sweet to him, cherish him, f*ck his brains out often..... he'll do whatever you want him to.


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## frusdil

I too married a gentleman. He courted me, and made me feel safe and protected. He did all those so called little things - walk on the road side of the footpath, opened doors, carried the umbrella in the rain, gave me his coat if I was cold...and he still does it now.

I tell him all the time that those are not "little things", not to me anyway. They are big things, that mean a lot to me because they show me that he cares. He took time out of his day to do something for me, sometimes simply because he knows it means something to me, he doesn't even necessarily understand why, but he does it anyway.

I love and adore him so much. I treat him like a king and never, ever take him for granted. Maybe that has something to do with it but I honestly believe it's just who he is, lucky me


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## RoseAglow

OP, as you can see from the responses, this is an item that is highly individualized. Some people care about the man opening the car doors; others don't. One of my BFFs loves it when her husband order for her at a restaurant, it makes her feel cared for; it would annoy the heck out of me if my husband did it in an attempt to be "manly". 

You say that your husband is a good man, so it sounds like your problem is focused on his manners, not an overall "He doesn't love me!" vibe. He probably just grew up differently and had different training.

If it is really important to you, I recommend that you continue to let him know that, as nicely as you can, as firmly as you can. Try not to assume that just because he doesn't open a door for you or walk on the side of the road, that he doesn't care for you. He is likely just unaware if they aren't habits for him. 

You will need to remind him more than once, especially if you only out out infrequently. It takes time and repetition to build a habit. If you are walking outside and he goes to the inside, you go to the inside and squeeze his arm nicely, say "I like it like this!" and give him a kiss. Reward him. "My sweet husband!" 

Most people really do want to make their significant other happy, especially if you can find a way to make them feel good doing it. 
This is one of those really simple things that he can do for you and it will make him a hero in your eyes. Most men will go for being the hero if given the chance. 

If you try for a long time and he doesn't pick it up, this might be something that just goes into the "I Tried" pile. If it really begins to annoy you, you might have to go to the lengths described by Turnera above, because otherwise you'll build resentment. But chances are, it won't go there, since it sounds like he is solid in most other areas.

Just curious- I see you've been married three years. Have you been together about 5 years? It sounds like you've been together just long enough for you to start to notice these "little" things.


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## EleGirl

turnera said:


> The flaw I saw was that she came in, he continued sitting and carrying on as though she wasn't there. That can be pretty humiliating. Maybe there's a bigger issue here.


This is what strikes me as well. It's not so much that he does not give her his chair. It's that he does not even acknowledge that she is there.


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## Bridge

martita said:


> Hi guys, i will try to make this short.
> Ill start by saying my husband is a good man. Hard worker, good with his family and mine and wouldnt do anything to hurt me on purpose.


This is going to sound corny but I think all of that is true chivalry. 

Anyway if you want him to go the extra mile, set the stage. Chivalry is a response to the fact females are 1. sexy and 2. helpless. 

Do your hair and makeup. Wear heels. Pretend you can't open a jar or reach the top shelf! Make sure you play your role and he'll have no choice but to open doors for you and give you his coat. It's one of the laws of physics.


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## EleGirl

Cletus said:


> Sorry, but this just sounds like a natural byproduct of the ongoing equalization between the sexes in our society. The kind of behavior you're seeking is essentially putting a woman on a pedestal. As women are rightly seen as equals to all men, you'll see pedestal behavior disappear from our culture.
> 
> Personally, I think this is a good thing. I had to learn how to iron my own shirts, why shouldn't my wife learn how to open her own doors? Whichever of us gets to the door first can hold it open for the other, as a show of consideration. Why must it be one sided?


When this kind of behavior is done between a couple, I don't think it has anything to do with putting her on a pedestal. It has to do with a couple treating each other as special.

There are special things that women do for the man in their lives as well. It's not that the woman is putting him on a pedestal. It's that she is treating him as special.

I cannot imagine my husband joining a group I'm with in a restaurant and me not even acknowledging that he's arrived, much less me not trying to make room for him to pull up a chair.

If he had to eat standing up, I would not accept that. Nor would I accept having to eat standing up with a group in a restaurant. I'd walk out before I did that. And I would not allow it for my husband either.


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## ConanHub

EleGirl said:


> When this kind of behavior is done between a couple, I don't think it has anything to do with putting her on a pedestal. It has to do with a couple treating each other as special.
> 
> There are special things that women do for the man in their lives as well. It's not that the woman is putting him on a pedestal. It's that she is treating him as special.
> 
> I cannot imagine my husband joining a group I'm with in a restaurant and me not even acknowledging that he's arrived, much less me not trying to make room for him to pull up a chair.
> 
> If he had to eat standing up, I would not accept that. Nor would I accept having to eat standing up with a group in a restaurant. I'd walk out before I did that. And I would not allow it for my husband either.


Yup. Or the more refined response,.... Precisely.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus

I do all of those things for my wife too, but make no mistake about it, these behaviors are rooted in old notions of chivalry and female weakness - holding open doors, standing when you enter a room, throwing down your cloak on the ground to keep her feet dry (what? that one has gone out of style? silly me) Would these behaviors spontaneously establish themselves if humans with our current American sensibilities of gender were plopped down on a rock with no history? I'm dubious. 

The only time in my life that I came close to trouble in my professional career was when I forgot to treat the woman in our group as different from the men, told a mildly suggestive joke, and got called in to the boss's office for a warning on sexual harassment. It can be very hard for a man today to walk the fine line between treating women as equals and treating them as women, and you never know which side of the line you're expected to walk with any individual. Plenty of women love having the door opened for them, and plenty would rip your arm off and beat you to death with it for trying.

Could you ladies please get your story straight on this one?


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## norajane

I agree that courtesy and manners are taught while people are children, and it sounds like he has never been taught, or was too lazy to pay attention.

Maybe pick one thing you'd like him to do and ask if he'd be willing to do that one thing consistently until it becomes second nature. Then add a second thing after a while.

But if he prefers not to learn any new behaviors, you either have to accept his manners or move on. You can "make" someone do anything.


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## Cletus

Are we unintentionally confounding "courtesy" with "chivalry"? 

I can still be courteous to my wife while fully expecting her to open the door if she's the first to arrive or to carry her own umbrella, can I not? 

The fact that I might do these things for my wife anyway is not a matter of courtesy, but one of doing a small thing that she appreciates that lets me show that she's worth a little extra effort on my part. But I do not think it makes me discourteous to not do it. Would you consider me rude if I, a stranger, failed to physically go around you and hold the door open at a store?


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## ConanHub

I think Cletus has a point. OPs husband actually seems to lack courtesy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that.girl

I think Cletus is making a good point, but in the wrong conversation. OP has asked her husband to do these things, and he has not delivered. If your wife asked you to make a point of helping her find a seat, would you make an effort to do it?


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## RoseAglow

The OP has some minor issues, like walking on the outside of the road and opening car doors, along with bigger issues like not offering a seat when she gets a plate and everyone else has eaten. 

The minor issues are generally considered acts of chivalry.

The major is very thoughtless and boorish IMO. It is not an issue of chivalry, it is matter of kindness and courtesy. The difference in my eyes is that chivalry is gender-specific; courteousness goes all ways. Borrowing from Ele above: "If he had to eat standing up, I would not accept that. Nor would I accept having to eat standing up with a group in a restaurant. I'd walk out before I did that. And I would not allow it for my husband either."

YMMV


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## Bridge

that.girl said:


> I think Cletus is making a good point, but in the wrong conversation. OP has asked her husband to do these things, and he has not delivered. If your wife asked you to make a point of helping her find a seat, would you make an effort to do it?


Chivalry is earned. You don't get open doors and chairs because you requested them - you get them cause you look great.


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## EleGirl

Cletus said:


> Are we unintentionally confounding "courtesy" with "chivalry"?
> 
> I can still be courteous to my wife while fully expecting her to open the door if she's the first to arrive or to carry her own umbrella, can I not?
> 
> The fact that I might do these things for my wife anyway is not a matter of courtesy, but one of doing a small thing that she appreciates that lets me show that she's worth a little extra effort on my part. But I do not think it makes me discourteous to not do it. Would you consider me rude if I, a stranger, failed to physically go around you and hold the door open at a store?


No I would no consider you, a stranger, rude for not going around me to open the door for me.

What you will find out is that if I get to the door before you, I will most likely hold the door open for you since you are right behind me.

At the very least I will hold it open enough as a walk through so that you can grab it so that it does not shut in your face.

It's called common courtesy.


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## EleGirl

Bridge said:


> Chivalry is earned. You don't get open doors and chairs because you requested them - you get them cause you look great.


Ah... so good looks are what counts.

Me as a older lady, who will never be able to look so great ever again can expect the door slammed in my face? Now I understand.


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## jld

My sons open doors for females, period.


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## Cletus

EleGirl said:


> No I would no consider you, a stranger, rude for not going around me to open the door for me.
> 
> What you will find out is that if I get to the door before you, I will most likely hold the door open for you since you are right behind me.
> 
> At the very least I will hold it open enough as a walk through so that you can grab it so that it does not shut in your face.
> 
> It's called common courtesy.


I'm operating under the assumption that the honorific of "gentleman" would _require_ me to hold open the door for a lady - not just in the normal day-to-day courtesy manner that you describe, but including a requirement that I nearly always make sure that you never have to open a door for yourself; certainly not if you are in my company. 

Those are very different propositions. Holding open the door for the next person behind you to enter is not the same as holding the door open so that the person behind you gets to go through first.


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## Bridge

EleGirl said:


> Ah... so good looks are what counts.
> 
> Me as a older lady, who will never be able to look so great ever again can expect the door slammed in my face? Now I understand.


Just pretend like you can't open the senior living door by yourself and you'll be drowning in men.


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## Wolf1974

As others have said if you want a certian type of man your can't settle for the lesser. Some men aren't open to being gentlemanly. I always have been and was brought up that way by my father. I open doors and pull out seats even when they have made a scene about me doing so. I will not change because this is how I was raised and how I feel I should be. What I do now though is demand more of myself and only date ladies. Few they may be but those who are defintely worth the wait.


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## Cletus

Wolf1974 said:


> As others have said if you want a certian type of man your can't settle for the lesser. Some men aren't open to being gentlemanly. I always have been and was brought up that way by my father. I open doors and pull out seats even when they have made a scene about me doing so. I will not change because this is how I was raised and how I feel I should be. What I do now though is demand more of myself and only date ladies. Few they may be but those who are defintely worth the wait.


So is a woman who doesn't want you to pull our her chair at dinner immediately disqualified? Not that I personally know any such hypothetical women.


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## frusdil

It's not about women being weak or helpless, it's about couples caring for each other. I LOVE that my husband opens doors for me, and carries the umbrella in the rain etc. I lap it up, I just love it.

Women also do things for their man, we just show our love and care in different ways - I'll cook his favourite meal sometimes, just because I can. Or I'll pick up some nifty gadget I see that I know he'll love. I'll get up early on the weekends to let the dogs out so he can sleep in (he loves that, lol) because he's been working all week.

It's about love, care and respect. No one is weak or helpless - of course I can open my own door or carry the umbrella. Hubby is more than capable of cooking his fav meal - he's not bad in the kitchen  , he likes to cook sometimes...we do these things for each other out of love and knowing it makes the other happy.


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## NobodySpecial

Cletus said:


> So is a woman who doesn't want you to pull our her chair at dinner immediately disqualified? Not that I personally know any such hypothetical women.


Raises hand.


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## ConanHub

I don't think there is a specific list. I do a lot of those things for my wife and she does a lot of special things for me.

OP doesn't feel cherished by her Hs behavior. Especially ignoring her in a restaurant setting. He honestly came off as a real dumb ass there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl

ConanHub said:


> I don't think there is a specific list. I do a lot of those things for my wife and she does a lot of special things for me.
> 
> *OP doesn't feel cherished by her Hs behavior. Especially ignoring her in a restaurant setting. He honestly came off as a real dumb ass there. *


This is, I think, the bottom line. Perhaps the OP needs to look at how she is expressing things to her husband. His ignoring her when she joins the group in the restaurant and leaving her to stand and eat is more about him just being down right disrespectful and not cherishing her than it is about chivalry.

Why would she even stick around when treated like this?


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## norajane

ConanHub said:


> I don't think there is a specific list. I do a lot of those things for my wife and she does a lot of special things for me.
> 
> OP doesn't feel cherished by her Hs behavior. Especially ignoring her in a restaurant setting. He honestly came off as a real dumb ass there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

My SO has always been great with this kind of stuff. It clearly comes easily to him, so I'd say his parents taught by example.

OP's H wasn't looking out for her, and that's painful for someone who wants to be with the kind of partner who does. Some of us would start questioning the WHOLE ENTIRE RELATIONSHIP while we're standing there with our plate of food, if we stuck around that long. 

Hey man, here's you're chance to be Superman saving Lois Lane - be her hero!


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## kokonatsu

> The fact that I might do these things for my wife anyway is not a matter of courtesy, but one of doing a small thing that she appreciates that lets me show that she's worth a little extra effort on my part. But I do not think it makes me discourteous to not do it.



courtesy: the showing of politeness in one's attitude and behavior toward others. 

I think "doing a small thing that she appreciates that lets me show that she's worth a little extra effort on my part" is either just a small part of, or another way to read the definition of courtesy. 

It takes a little extra effort to hold a door open for someone, or to be the one holding the umbrella, or standing up from a chair so someone else can sit down. 

also, some courtesies are cultural. In a couple countries I know of, they don't hold doors open for someone, even if the next person is right behind.


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## turnera

I work with a lot of people (men) who appear to be from the Middle East and I keep getting a culture shock in my own US town, each time we go to the elevators or walk through doors - all the American men will hold back to let the women go in first, while the men who seem to be of Middle Eastern descent just go straight in or ahead of everyone. I know it's an old-fashioned thing, but I have to admit it still irks me every time.


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## jld

turnera said:


> I work with a lot of people (men) who appear to be from the Middle East and I keep getting a culture shock in my own US town, each time we go to the elevators or walk through doors - all the American men will hold back to let the women go in first, while the men who seem to be of Middle Eastern descent just go straight in or ahead of everyone. I know it's an old-fashioned thing, but I have to admit it still irks me every time.


That is the custom in India, too, that men go in the door first.


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## Pooh Bear

martita said:


> You've said he's a good man and that is important. There are plenty of men who open doors, give up their seats for their partners, and do all of these "chivalrous" things for women but are jerks in other ways.
> 
> Comparing your relationship to other people's relationships does not seem helpful. You are not other couples. I agree, refusing to walk you to the bathroom at the bar was kind of a jerky thing to do. When you are at a restaurant trying to eat because you are late and he is seated, have you ever asked him to give you the seat? Or is it possible to find another chair? I've never put a great deal of importance on a man opening a door for me but if it is important to you, maybe you just need to ask him to do it until he remembers. It sounds like what you are really looking for is to be made to feel like you are important to him. What are the ways which he does make you feel important? There must be some or you wouldn't have married him, I'm assuming.


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## Pooh Bear

Bridge said:


> This is going to sound corny but I think all of that is true chivalry.
> 
> Anyway if you want him to go the extra mile, set the stage. Chivalry is a response to the fact females are 1. sexy and 2. helpless.
> 
> Do your hair and makeup. Wear heels. Pretend you can't open a jar or reach the top shelf! Make sure you play your role and he'll have no choice but to open doors for you and give you his coat. It's one of the laws of physics.


I actually agree with you. There is that duality to chivalry. If a man is chivalrous the woman has to be helpless. That is why I don't like chivalry. Respect of your partner, yes. From both sides. Some false sense of masculinity and femininity - no. I can open my own door and sometimes I open the door for others and others open the door for me. But I know that some people see things differently.


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## 6301

Had a friend who was kind of like that and got away with it for a while and then one day he met his future wife. She was just what he was looking for but she also had one more extra he didn't count on.

She had her standards and wouldn't compromise them for anyone and the first night they went out, they got to his car, he jumps in. She goes over to the other side and stands there. He see's here standing there, hits the button for the window and asked if anything was wrong. She calmly said that if you want to date me I expect to be treated like a lady. Finally the hammer in his head swung and he got the message and opened the door for her and she thanked him. The girl was able to teach this all thumbs and no common sense guy that he should think of others before himself.

Oh by the way they were married in 1971 and he still opens the door for her to this day.


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## Pooh Bear

turnera said:


> The flaw I saw was that she came in, he continued sitting and carrying on as though she wasn't there. That can be pretty humiliating. Maybe there's a bigger issue here.


Yeah. I thought that was strange as well. You know, my husband will get hyper focused on something because he has ADD and will not notice other things going on around him. Not that that has anything to do with it but he may just not always notice things. Maybe he is a little bit socially inept. I don't know. Some of what she is talking about, of course, is just social training. A parent will teach a boy child to open doors for girls, etc.


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## Wolf1974

Cletus said:


> So is a woman who doesn't want you to pull our her chair at dinner immediately disqualified? Not that I personally know any such hypothetical women.


Absolutely!!!!!! Not only because I like women who like chivalrous acts but also because anyone who is going to make scene out of having thier chair pulled out is beyond ridiculous.

And they aren't hypothetical try dating in the modern age and it will happen eventually.


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## Pooh Bear

*"Could you ladies please get your story straight on this one?"*

Lol. Sorry, Cletus, that is not going to happen. Because, believe it or not, we are not all the same. I know that is really hard to believe but....


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## ConanHub

Pooh Bear said:


> *"Could you ladies please get your story straight on this one?"*
> 
> Lol. Sorry, Cletus, that is not going to happen. Because, believe it or not, we are not all the same. I know that is really hard to believe but....


Damn!!! Back to the drawing board brothers....&#55357;&#56841;
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

You guys can complain about not wanting to be 'that way' for women all you want. But in the end, the guys who use such tiny ways to make a woman feel special...usually get made to feel special in return.


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## Pooh Bear

Wolf1974 said:


> Absolutely!!!!!! Not only because I like women who like chivalrous acts but also because anyone who is going to make scene out of having thier chair pulled out is beyond ridiculous.
> 
> And they aren't hypothetical try dating in the modern age and it will happen eventually.


I wouldn't see that as chivalry. Just kind of a sweet thing to do. I can also pull out my own chair. It doesn't matter to me either way. It is the same with opening doors. I have had men and women open doors for me. I am appreciative anytime someone does it. It is a nice thing to do.


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## Wolf1974

Pooh Bear said:


> I wouldn't see that as chivalry. Just kind of a sweet thing to do. I can also pull out my own chair. It doesn't matter to me either way. It is the same with opening doors. I have had men and women open doors for me. I am appreciative anytime someone does it. It is a nice thing to do.


yeah you would think at min they would just be happy with the gesture. I can get my own door and chair too but when someone else does it I don't throw a fit. Some people are just way to high on their own horse lol


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## Pooh Bear

ConanHub said:


> Damn!!! Back to the drawing board brothers....��
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Lol. It's really not that complicated. You just get to know each woman individually instead of making assumptions about her based on a stereotype.


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## Pooh Bear

Wolf1974 said:


> yeah you would think at min they would just be happy with the gesture. I can get my own door and chair too but when someone else does it I don't throw a fit. Some people are just way to high on their own horse lol


Yeah. There is no point in humiliating someone. I think if you feel really strongly about something like that you can just talk about it politely.


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## brainysmurf

I know how you feel... my husband is not a gentleman either, and it makes me feel sad -- so sad that it's turned to anger and I am now fantasizing about life without him. His ungentlemanliness is plain rudeness, discourtesy and disrespect. And it's a mark of his selfishness that he exhibits in other ways, as well. It is a big deal -- boyfriends and husbands are supposed to care about their girlfriends or wives. If you get stuck with someone who doesn't, then you become forsaken, especially if the discourteous one gets jealous if someone else steps forward to be nice to you, instead. The concept of "gentlemanliness" is really just love, kindness and caring expressed to your partner. It's called "to be a gentleman" because we're talking about men.


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## Marriedwithdogs

This has as much to do with being considerate as it does being chivalrous. My H also gives me his coat as soon as I say I'm cold, open doors, waits outside the car for me if I'm returning the shopping cart,is protective of me in public places, and would most definitely offer up a seat for me if there weren't any other seats. These are things I guess I just thought most husbands did.


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## tripad

unbelievable said:


> Proper manners are something folks usually learn from their parents and that happens before age 5.
> 
> but for future reference, if a gentleman is what you want, that's what you ought to be dating. You should be able to identify someone with manners within about 5 seconds of meeting them.


I will bear this in mind when I date again


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## martita

Ive read so many good points, so many PoVs from you guys. THANK YOU, and I know that at this point I will have to accept it. Because as most of oyu have said, it comes from the way you were raised. His brother is not the gentleman type either.
My hubby is a good one overall, I realized this was something that made me feel embarrassed only when we are around people who actually do it for their ladies. When we are by ourselves its not much of an issue...so that part is my fault. I wasnt consistent, and I cant expect him to do it at certain times only.

Thanks guys, this forum is so helpful.


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## GTdad

Marriedwithdogs said:


> This has as much to do with being considerate as it does being chivalrous. My H also gives me his coat as soon as I say I'm cold, open doors, waits outside the car for me if I'm returning the shopping cart,is protective of me in public places, and would most definitely offer up a seat for me if there weren't any other seats. These are things I guess I just thought most husbands did.


My idea of being "gentlemanly" isn't exactly the same thing as being courteous. On those occasions when I take public transportation, I'll give up my seat for a woman every time. I won't do the same for a man unless he's very elderly or disabled.


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