# Girls Night Out with "toxic" friends. What should a husband do?



## RFguy

This is about a friend of mine. His wife anounced that from now on Friday night is GNO. 

I know them well and his wife is not the kind who will fool around. However, the other two girls are what I would call "toxic". One is recently divorced, so probably on the lookout. The other one is the most "toxic" of the two. She's currently single, has cheated on all of her previous relationships and is notorious for having ONSs.

They all are in mid 30s, and in good shape, very good looking.

Their first GNO will be probably next Friday. How should the husband approach this?


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## Wiserforit

He should have the wife's little sister or a niece over while the wife is out. Whoever is youngest and hottest.


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## MSP

It's silly that this is even an issue in a marriage. Essentially, this is the frame: 

"Hi, honey, I'm going out to a place where men will be looking for women like me to hook up with. I'll be drinking and dancing and dressed as sexily as possible. I'll also be with friends who are looking to hook up with random guys. If you say I can't go I'll complain that you are controlling and unreasonable and don't trust me."

The husband should say something along the lines of him being uncomfortable with the kind of environment she will be in (make it about the environment and not about her) and that he does not want her to go. If she goes anyway, then the marriage has other issues.


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## the guy

He should not have to but since he does, it will be up to him to protect him self from the emotional torture that this kind of behavior will lead to.

If he chooses he doesn't have to tolorate it but it will take some confidence on his part in being able to let go of his marriage and find a women that wants to be with him and respects the protection he has to offer in a relationship.

What I'm saying here is he can not control his soon to be ex wife but he can control what he will tolorate by letting his wife go and avoid the emotional train wreck that is sure to come.

I have been her way to long to see how these GNO pan out and it just ain't worth it. 

Tell your friend to cut his losses, stop trying to control his wife (cuz he can't) and tell him to go find a women that will respect his boundries that will protect the next marriage.

It takes balls and this tactic is over the top but filing for divorce is the only way his wife will see how serious this is in #1 protecting him self from the emotional torture that is coming his way and #2 finding a women that has the respect for him to accept the protection he offers in protecting the relationship.

Sorry man but your friend can't nice his way out of this and if his old lady knew he wasn't going to tolorate this crap she would even bring it to the table....But the fact is your friend ain't going anywere and his chick knows this and can get away with what ever the hell she wants.

Today its GNO the next day is excepting her new "friend" she met and in a few weeks it will be " I love you but I am not in love with you". That how this sh1t goes down!

Sorry bro but I have been here way to long and have spent decades with Mrs. the -guy to know how this ends unless he starts *commanding" respect and sets the boundries that are the walls that will emotioanlly protect him in the near future. In addition there most be consequences for when these boudries are crossed.



Or he can be like me and let his old lady do what and who ever she wants while he gets to do who and what ever he want...but he won't like what he will become and the father he will become and the marriage that he tolorated for years.

Again I know how this ends, it ain't worth it. Tell your friend to smile wish his wife the best but this is not the marriage he signed up for and she is more then welcome to be single and hang out with who she please, just like he has the same choice in who he wants to be married to.

Is your buddy that alpha enought to stand up and save his marriage or will he fold under manipulation like we all do/did??????

One thing I have learned in my 23 yrs of marriage, chicks dig confident men and men that command respect. If your friend folds on this GNO bull crap he will fold when she meets her new "friend" and he will beg for his marriage and become a cuckold to his wife as the years pass.

This isn't a perspective, this isn't advice, this is what will either save the marriage or lose it...but from were Im sitting he has a better chance in letting her go then either allowing it or fighting for her.

Man you just can't control women but you do have control over what you except and tolorate....and he doesn't and shouldn't tolorate this when there so many women out their that would make a great wife and good stepmother......


Lets face it, his wife knows she can get awy with this crap, I suggest your friend prove his wife wrong by asking her to leave.


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## ubercoolpanda

If the husband has a problem with it he should tell his wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## the guy

What your friend should do is educate him self and read "Married Mans Sex Life" and this book has NOTHING to do with sex!!!!!!

Some of you falks are going give me sh1t for being over the top, but until his friend changes and raise his sex rank, he is doomed.

I mean really how low is his rank that his wife can make suck a proclamation? How weak does she think her husband is in making suck a demand?

Thsi marriage is in trouble, and the guys wife is excaping the hard work in saving it by going out with divorced and single women.

This guy is screwed unless he mans up and has the confidence to raise his sex rank by having the confidence to let his wife go be single while he finds a chick that wants to respect the marital boundries of staying away from the single life style that these TF's offer!!!!!


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## the guy

ubercoolpanda said:


> If the husband has a problem with it he should tell his wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Whats there to talk about, from reading OP's post it sound like his buddys wife has made a proclamation...a demand...a statement of fact with out negogiation.

And thats how I saw it and why i reponde as such.

Again I have been wrong before but over at the "Coping With Infidelity " section of this forum....I would have a strong fan base


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## unbelievable

If I told my wife that Friday was "single guy clubbing night", she'd remind me that Friday nights just happened to coincide with "taking an axe handle to my husband's car night".


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## TRy

RFguy said:


> His wife anounced that from now on Friday night is GNO.





RFguy said:


> One is recently divorced, so probably on the lookout. The other one is the most "toxic" of the two. She's currently single, has cheated on all of her previous relationships and is notorious for having ONSs.


 OK, what the wife just said is that I have two single friends that are going bar hopping every Friday night to try to pick up on guys to drink with, dance with and have sex with them, and that I am going to pretend that I am single and go bar hopping with them. And by the way, as a "GNO" the only guy on the planet not allowed to join us for the fun is you my husband.

If my wife told me that, i would tell her that if she wants to go bar hopping as if she is single, then that could be arranged. There is no backing down on this. If today she "is not the kind who will fool around", she will be after a few months of this.


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## the guy

Wiserforit said:


> He should have the wife's little sister or a niece over while the wife is out. Whoever is youngest and hottest.


Tell your friend that he should tell his wife that Saturday thru Thursday will now be GNO (guys night out):lol:


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## just_about_done

Tell her Fridays are also strippers and beer night. 

Or buy all new deadbolts, lay them on the kitchen counter and tell her since he'll be bored and alone on Friday he found something to occupy his time while she's out.


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## RFguy

Thanks for the input, everyone!

Now another question: I believe that he's oblivious to the dangers of the whole GNO deal. Should I tell him?


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## Dollystanford

Divorced so 'probably on the lookout'??? Nice

Or perhaps she just wants a few drinks and to chat with a couple of close friends. We don't all jump on the nearest wang you know


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## committed4ever

Would any men have a serious problem if your wife was just friends with the same type ladies? Would you want her to drop them as friends too? In other words, not do any thing at all with them like shopping, inviting them to events you have at your home, etc., lunch etc.?

And a follow up question to that, if your wife *did not *drop them as friends with the type of activities listed above, what would you do?


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## Entropy3000

RFguy said:


> This is about a friend of mine. His wife anounced that from now on Friday night is GNO.
> 
> I know them well and his wife is not the kind who will fool around. However, the other two girls are what I would call "toxic". One is recently divorced, so probably on the lookout. The other one is the most "toxic" of the two. She's currently single, has cheated on all of her previous relationships and is notorious for having ONSs.
> 
> They all are in mid 30s, and in good shape, very good looking.
> 
> Their first GNO will be probably next Friday. How should the husband approach this?


This would be easy for me because I have reserved Friday night for me.

What is the GNO?

When will she be home? 

But indeed announcing is not agreeing to anything. This sounds like a unilateral change to the marriage. So making a lot of assumptions from your post that this is not a marriage friendly GNO thing I think he should tell her that they need to discuss the division of property and that he would feel disrespected by this and he is not going accept nor enable this. Also weekly is way too much even for a marriage friendly GNO, UNLESS it is like a late afternoon thing where she can be home in time for date night with the hubs. Luncheons during the week. Great. But what you imply is her being a wing woman in a prowling pack. 

You decide where to make your stand. I would have the talk with my wife and if things are really not so good then I would make my stand immediately. I refuse to enable.


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## Entropy3000

TRy said:


> OK, what the wife just said is that I have two single friends that are going bar hopping every Friday night to try to pick up on guys to drink with, dance with and have sex with them, and that I am going to pretend that I am single and go bar hopping with them. And by the way, as a "GNO" the only guy on the planet not allowed to join us for the fun is you my husband.
> 
> If my wife told me that, i would tell her that if she wants to go bar hopping as if she is single, then that could be arranged. There is no backing down on this. If today she "is not the kind who will fool around", she will be after a few months of this.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

This ^^^^


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## Entropy3000

RFguy said:


> Thanks for the input, everyone!
> 
> Now another question: I believe that he's oblivious to the dangers of the whole GNO deal. Should I tell him?


Have him post here.


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## Entropy3000

committed4ever said:


> Would any men have a serious problem if your wife was just friends with the same type ladies? Would you want her to drop them as friends too? In other words, not do any thing at all with them like shopping, inviting them to events you have at your home, etc., lunch etc.?
> 
> And a follow up question to that, if your wife *did not *drop them as friends with the type of activities listed above, what would you do?


The type of GNO is what matters.

IF my wife had cheating friends I would lose all respect for my wife. I would lose trust in her for her bad judgement.

Now IF I thought my wife had a toxic friend we would discuss it. Could it become a choice. Sure, but why jump to that. Too many hypotheticals here.

All we heard was GNOs and these people. The rest is left to our imaginations.


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## the guy

unbelievable said:


> If I told my wife that Friday was "single guy clubbing night", she'd remind me that Friday nights just happened to coincide with "taking an axe handle to my husband's car night".


OMG!!!!!:lol::rofl::lol::rofl::lol::rofl:

And ya:iagree:


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## RFguy

Dollystanford said:


> Divorced so 'probably on the lookout'??? Nice
> 
> Or perhaps she just wants a few drinks and to chat with a couple of close friends. We don't all jump on the nearest wang you know


I am a member here for maybe less than 4 months. But this has been more than enough time to see a pattern emerge: 

A new member will post a new thread about something their spouse does and they find it innocent when taken at face value but maybe just a tiny bit offsetting and they want a second opinion. After some prying by the other posters and info provided by the OP, it more often than not turns out that the spouse is sleeping around and the OP was oblivious to it the whole time.

But were they really oblivious? They stumbled upon this forum, obviously by googling relevant terms, and then took the time to set up an account and write an eloquent OP. That is quite some work in itself, just to post about something trivial and innocent.

They reality of course is that all these people see the signs and their spidey sense goes ape wire, no matter how much they want to delude themselves. If you feel the urge to post it here then something is not right.

This is the case with the specific GNO here. I've seen quite some signs and I conclude that these two girls are up to no good.


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## thatbpguy

I might be inclined to place a VAR ion her car and purse (if it can fit in without too much notice) and/or see if someone can shadow them and monitor what goes on. I mean, I know that he should trust her, but this seems like too much to ask for.


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## the guy

committed4ever said:


> Would any men have a serious problem if your wife was just friends with the same type ladies? Would you want her to drop them as friends too? In other words, not do any thing at all with them like shopping, inviting them to events you have at your home, etc., lunch etc.?
> 
> And a follow up question to that, if your wife *did not *drop them as friends with the type of activities listed above, what would you do?


My old lady banged a lot of guy behind my back so I wouldn;"t be ok with any GNO. That was he MO.

See me and Mrs. the-guy have problems so we are wired different then most. We find it best to stick to gether and fight off the crap that would try to mess with our marriage as long as we stick together.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

RFguy said:


> This is about a friend of mine. His wife anounced that from now on Friday night is GNO.
> 
> I know them well and his wife is not the kind who will fool around. However, the other two girls are what I would call "toxic". One is recently divorced, so probably on the lookout. The other one is the most "toxic" of the two. She's currently single, has cheated on all of her previous relationships and is notorious for having ONSs.
> 
> They all are in mid 30s, and in good shape, very good looking.
> 
> Their first GNO will be probably next Friday. How should the husband approach this?


By telling her no, it is not acceptable. Frankly, it isn't even a debate. If I told my wife I was headed out to the bar with a couple of single guys, what do you think she will say? Hell to the fvcking no. I wouldn't even bring it up because I KNOW how inappropriate it is.

Mid 30s, in good shape, very good looking ... out with other women who WILL be flirting with men and possibly more. A few drinks, inhibitions lowered. So these other women are on the dance floor grinding with other men late in the evening ... and this attractive woman is sitting by herself. That is a disaster in the making.

Everybody has the capacity to cheat. Some more than others but the best way to assure that you don't is to not put yourself in the position where the temptation is possible.


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## the guy

RFguy said:


> Thanks for the input, everyone!
> 
> Now another question: I believe that he's oblivious to the dangers of the whole GNO deal. Should I tell him?


I think for him to understand your point of view, your friend needs to see the temptations and the snowball effect GNO's lead to.

After all his wife WOULD NEVER CHEAT ON HIM but he needs to see the capacity that her TF have on any give eviorment. Often the GNO end up at some guys house cuz one of her friends wants to go and sh1t happens. Or. someone gets her number cuz they are going thru the same marriage stuff as she is and wants to talk and bamn a week later they "just kissed".

I could go on but I think you know the deal so please pass it on to you buddy and let him know its not about trusting his chick but keeping her out of a unhealthy enviorment for a married women that hangs with drinking single chicks.

MY stance would be " its not the wife its the enviorment my wife is in"

On a side note....these days it was may wife and not the eviorment:lol:

Seriously tell your friend about the dangers a married women faces in a very toxic enviorment. That way your not accusing his old lady as being untrust worthy but informing him of the dangers of the enviorment.

And that enviorment concists of drumken poeple, spikes drinks and letting some drunk guy have his way instead of forcing his way when his wife ends up in the wrong place at the wrong time due to her friends dicisions.


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## Entropy3000

I would never tell my wife I was hanging out with th guys every Friday night ...

I suppose if it was doing some activity like a ball game or some hobby then she probably would not care as long as it did not cut into our time too much. It would need to be marriage friendly.

I think even if it was me going out to a strip club with other married guys she might be ok with that. I would not be.

But in no way would my wife be ok with me going clubbing with a couple of single guys. NFW. This has nothing to do with trust. It is about single behavior. But indeed it should reduce my wifes trust in me.

So switch it around. But again, the OP did not tell us what the GNOs really are. WE are guessing.

Be prepared for the bait and switch we often get.


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## the guy

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> By telling her no, it is not acceptable. Frankly, it isn't even a debate.
> 
> Mid 30s, in good shape, very good looking ... out with other women who WILL be flirting with men and possibly more. A few drinks, inhibitions lowered. So these other women are on the dance floor grinding with other men late in the evening ... and this attractive woman is sitting by herself. That is a disaster in the making.


Throw in husband works all the time and doesn't have time for me and your friend is asking for it.


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## BjornFree

Entropy3000 said:


> So switch it around. But again, the OP did not tell us what the GNOs really are. WE are guessing.


One divorced friend, One single serial cheater friend. My guess is on the Friday Night Knitting Club.


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## the guy

@E3, are you talking about the 'ol bait and switch were the wife tells H that her and the TF's were going to a bar but had to pick up TF #1's boyfriend and when they got ther said boyfriend had a couple of buddies with them so they all deside to stay and said boyfriends house and when TF#1 went off to bed with said boyfriend and TF#2 went off with buddy #2, wifey was left with buddy#3 ALONE and wifey wakes up at 6am naked in bed with said buddy #3 and not remembering anything that happened....is that the bait and switch you speak of E3?


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## the guy

BjornFree said:


> One divorced friend, One single serial cheater friend. My guess is on the Friday Night Knitting Club.


@BF, the 'ol friday night knitting club......My wife isn't much of a knitter, but are those one of those girls only no boys allowed deals??? Or is it one of those sexy cloths/sex toy parties? Sorry wired different then most but still it can't be healthy for the marriage.
Not the sex toys and cloths... the GNO!!!!


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## committed4ever

> IF my wife had cheating friends I would lose all respect for my wife. I would lose trust in her for her bad judgement.


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## BjornFree

the guy said:


> @BF, the 'ol friday night knitting club......My wife isn't much of a knitter, but are those one of those girls only no boys allowed deals??? Or is it one of those sexy cloths/sex toy parties? Sorry wired different then most but still it can't be healthy for the marriage.
> Not the sex toys and cloths... the GNO!!!!


Have you ever heard hens chirping? Nah, you haven't admit it. Hens don't chirp they cluck. I was unfortunately privy to some of the gossip that makes rounds in these reading, knitting, God know what groups.NIGHTMARE. Our house is sort of the official club house, how it became so I will never know.


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## 2ntnuf

yep, They'll talk about their deepest darkest secrets and then come home and tell their husband they aren't being open and honest with them. Playing coy, they will never admit to what they talked about or what they know. Been there. Saw it. Heard it. Had it happen. Worst of all, I fell for it and believed it. Stupid, stupid, stupid.(Chris Farley)


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## unbelievable

My wife goes out with her friends every now and then. She's never given me a reason to worry. My previous joke aside, she doesn't care if I go tip a beer with the guys. If you can't trust 'em, you don't need 'em.


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## Entropy3000

committed4ever said:


>


This is not about you Darlin.

Folks can beat me up but if I was willing to put myself in that clubbing scenario on a weekly basis with toxic friends I would probably be divorced very soon. Because that is a singles life style. 

I am not talking about a few guys having some drinks.

I am talking about clubbing. Drinking and dancing with women. No. I know me. And I like women way too much to play that game. Weak? Maybe. Probably just honest. If I am going to be doing that with a group of women, some number will want to take me home with them. Can I say no? Sure and I have. But if I am doing this weekly I would be out looking for some strange. Duh!


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## Entropy3000

unbelievable said:


> My wife goes out with her friends every now and then. She's never given me a reason to worry. My previous joke aside, she doesn't care if I go tip a beer with the guys. If you can't trust 'em, you don't need 'em.


Agreed. 

But I would have zero trust for a wife who announced she was going out every Friday with these folks, if it was not a marriage friendly venue.

But that said, I would not be up for that anyway. Friday is fun and exciting. It is for being out late. It allows for more possibilities and outcomes.

If you cannot spend these nights with your spouse regularly then WTF?


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## committed4ever

Entropy3000 said:


> *This is not about you Darlin.*
> Folks can beat me up but if I was willing to put myself in that clubbing scenario on a weekly basis with toxic friends I would probably be divorced very soon. Because that is a singles life style.
> 
> I am not talking about a few guys having some drinks.
> 
> I am talking about clubbing. Drinking and dancing with women. No. I know me. And I like women way too much to play that game. Weak? Maybe. Probably just honest. If I am going to be doing that with a group of women, some number will want to take me home with them. Can I say no? Sure and I have. But if I am doing this weekly I would out looking for some strange. Duh!


Part in bold: I know. That sad face was for what you said about not trusting your wife if she had a questionable friend.


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## Nsweet

I guess you'll never know they're doing for sure. So I only have three words for you "document, document, document." If she's acting strange, her stories don't match up, and she's pulling away from your friend.... Better have him write it down. 

I could say a lot more about how this is one of those situations that could lead into the "tester" affair, where she dips a toe into the dating pool along with the peer pressure of her friends to see if casual sex outside of marriage will make her happy again. But I really don't want to ruin a good Sunday with hypothetical bullsh!t and for you to give him second hand advice. 

He knows something is up, he can either put his foot down now or become his old lady's cuckhold once she's started sleeping around... And statistically she's not going to use condoms, so I hope he isn't planning any miracle children anytime soon. 

Aside from that, I just have to say "Sometimes being a man means you have to be the bad guy, put your foot down, and say NO." No he can either put up with a wife having sketchy GNOs or he can earn her respect by standing his ground, but this is his decision to make. You do not want to get too involved because if they should divorce you could be dragged into it for warning him ahead of time.


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## happyman64

You can tell your friend what your opinion of GNO means to you after reading on TAM.

Your friend can reinforce his boundaries and make it clear to his wife how he expects her to behave.

but every Friday night? Ahh no....

Because I would be at that same place next Friday night with my guy friends.

Do they have kids RFGuy?


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## Entropy3000

committed4ever said:


> Part in bold: I know. That sad face was for what you said about not trusting your wife if she had a questionable friend.


Well lets not take this to extremes. 

This is all out of context. And IRL things depend.

But if my wife wanted to go out on the town with people who are known to be serial cheaters I would lose trust in her judgement. If this was a large group and they happened to be in it, that is one thing. But tight close and patying with someone like that?

How should I feel?


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## unbelievable

Entropy3000 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> But I would have zero trust for a wife who announced she was going out every Friday with these folks, if it was not a marriage friendly venue.
> 
> But that said, I would not be up for that anyway. Friday is fun and exciting. It is for being out late. It allows for more possibilities and outcomes.
> 
> If you cannot spend these nights with your spouse regularly then WTF?


She puts up with me working shift work. She waited faithfully and patiently while I was overseas a year at a time...twice. I can trust her anywhere with anybody. If she wants some other guy, I'll help her pack. I'm her husband, not her hostage taker. She knows which side of her toast is buttered. She doesn't fool around on me because she doesn't want to, not because she doesn't have opportunities. If I wanted to mess around on her, I could, evil friends or not. I don't because I value her more than whatever else might be out there. That, and I know that she's crazy enough to gut me like a fish.


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## the guy

@c4e why be sad?
Cheating is bad. stealing is bad, and crack is bad...so why be sad that some folks think the way they do with regards to whom their spouse associate with when it comes to bad influences?

This is an off the wall analogy and may sound bat sh1t crazy but for the sake off effect would you rather have your spouse hang with with the Night Stalker or the kid that won the National Spelling B???

OK lets keep it simple your spouses hangs with a doctor or a pimp?

Maybe I'm over the top but if your spouse had 2 buddies and had to choose who to hang out with for the one night they were in town...which one would you want your old man to hang with..the rock star or the school teacher?

what the hell am I talking about teachers screw around also hell rock stars kill there wife....analogies suck.

The point I'm trying to make is that OP friend is not protecting his marriage if he sits by and lets his wife make these kind of demand out of the relationship/marriage. The wifes statement are unhealthy for the marriage at the very least show a lack of respect for her partners feeling.


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## Entropy3000

unbelievable said:


> She puts up with me working shift work. She waited faithfully and patiently while I was overseas a year at a time...twice. I can trust her anywhere with anybody. If she wants some other guy, I'll help her pack. I'm her husband, not her hostage taker. She knows which side of her toast is buttered. She doesn't fool around on me because she doesn't want to, not because she doesn't have opportunities. If I wanted to mess around on her, I could, evil friends or not. I don't because I value her more than whatever else might be out there. That, and I know that she's crazy enough to gut me like a fish.


The unfaithfulness to me would be her putting herself in this situation. 

I am saying that if my wife announced this it would be sending me the message the marriage is over.

I would not accept this behavior. I would not accept my wife going out every week and doing non marriage friendly things.

I trust my wife to NOT do these. 

My wife and I have been through all you describe. In no way does that mean I would accept unfaithfulness. But you are not me and I am not you.
I will not accept my wife or myself doing those things in our marriage. 

And what is it that I am supposed to trust? That she not run away with someone? That she not fall in love? Or that she not have PIV sex?
I trust that my wife not choose toxic friends and to not put herself in a single situation. 

You may be fine with your wife going out weekly, drinking and dancing with single women. I am not. But indeed maybe they are just going to dinner and then the wife will be home. He has not said what it is. Leaving out those details is like thing a grenade as it is all speculation.

I have done some winderful things for my wife and her family. I do not see that that means I can go clubbing with others.

You are completely dismissing the toxic venue, friends and frequency. You assume that this is 100% on character. Well go ahead and believe that.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

committed4ever said:


> Part in bold: I know. That sad face was for what you said about not trusting your wife if she had a questionable friend.


Who we choose to surround ourselves with is important. If my wife surrounded herself with people of questionable character then I would have to start questioning her character.


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## Nsweet

I'm going to be the stark raving lunatic here and ask a c-r-a-z-y question....

Why can't your friend and his wife *go out and make married friends together* that they both will enjoy? 

Blalalala *hearing voices*:crazy: You can all go back to discussing hypothetical "what if" situations and getting butthurt over nothing.


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## JustSomeGuyWho

Nsweet said:


> Why can't your friend and his wife *go out and make married friends together* that they both will enjoy?


This

:iagree:


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## Entropy3000

Nsweet said:


> I'm going to be the stark raving lunatic here and ask a c-r-a-z-y question....
> 
> Why can't your friend and his wife *go out and make married friends together* that they both will enjoy?
> 
> Blalalala *hearing voices*:crazy: You can all go back to discussing hypothetical "what if" situations and getting butthurt over nothing.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

This ^^^^


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## the guy

committed4ever said:


> Part in bold: I know. That sad face was for what you said about not trusting your wife if she had a questionable friend.


Sure its sad some folks can't trust their spouse due to the fact that said spouse took that trust away due to infidelity. 

When one has to cope with infidelity the rules change and it takes alot to regain trust.

What suck as a bunch of strangers coping with infidelity we find our selves in a general discussion about a GNO and others just might not see the damage *some* GNO cause
. While others can go thru their whole entire life never having to face it.

I guess I'm trying to say is that when one has gotten bitten by infidelity under the guiss of a GNO one can be tainted towrds the whole suggestion of it.

TRUST its a double edge sword


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## committed4ever

Entropy3000 said:


> Well lets not take this to extremes.
> 
> This is all out of context. And IRL things depend.
> 
> But if my wife wanted to go out on the town with people who are known to be serial cheaters I would lose trust in her judgement. If this was a large group and they happened to be in it, that is one thing. But tight close and patying with someone like that?
> 
> *How should I feel?*





the guy said:


> @c4e why be sad?
> Cheating is bad. stealing is bad, and crack is bad...*so why be sad that some folks think the way they do with regards to whom their spouse associate with when it comes to bad influences?*
> This is an off the wall analogy and may sound bat sh1t crazy but for the sake off effect would you rather have your spouse hang with with the Night Stalker or the kid that won the National Spelling B???
> 
> OK lets keep it simple your spouses hangs with a doctor or a pimp?
> 
> Maybe I'm over the top but if your spouse had 2 buddies and had to choose who to hang out with for the one night they were in town...which one would you want your old man to hang with..the rock star or the school teacher?
> 
> what the hell am I talking about teachers screw around also hell rock stars kill there wife....analogies suck.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is that OP friend is not protecting his marriage if he sits by and lets his wife make these kind of demand out of the relationship/marriage. The wifes statement are unhealthy for the marriage at the very least show a lack of respect for her partners feeling.





JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Who we choose to surround ourselves with is important. *If my wife surrounded herself with people of questionable character then I would have to start questioning her character.*


You're all right of course. Just seem like a high price to pay (losing husband's trust) for maintaining a friendship even if the person gets off course.

But for the OP, I really think that situation is very inappropriate and call for drastic measure on the Husband's part. I was just throwing my question in the mix to see if was the GNO (at a bar) that was the problem, or just having questionable friends was the issue.


----------



## the guy

Nsweet said:


> Aside from that, I just have to say "Sometimes being a man means you have to be the bad guy, put your foot down, and say NO


Back in the day that would work so well when our protection was wanted, needed and respected.
These day women can take care of them selves...except when it come to spiders then all deals are off and as men we are called to the plate to kill that arachnoid! But the next day our women will walk into that board room and own the day

The vagina-fication or men is upon us gents!

Now hurry up and read this post so I can delete it before Mrs. the-guy reads it!:rofl:


----------



## Nsweet

the guy said:


> Back in the day that would work so well when our protection was wanted, needed and respected.
> These day women can take care of them selves...except when it come to spiders then all deals are off and as men we are called to the plate to kill that arachnoid! But the next day our women will walk into that board room and own the day
> 
> The vagina-fication or men is upon us gents!
> 
> Now hurry up and read this post so I can delete it before Mrs. the-guy reads it!:rofl:


And if you believe this, I feel sorry for you.:rofl: 

Women may not need you to physically protect them or go out and kill something for nourishment, but they still need YOU. And putting your foot down and holding your ground on these relationship deal breakers is not about being alpha, it's not controlling her, it's about sex or vagina-fication or whatever you want to blame it on. It wouldn't matter if you were a married as you are or a lesbian couple. Keeping boundaries and being willing to walkaway if your partner crosses the line is the most adult thing you can do.


----------



## the guy

committed4ever said:


> You're all right of course. Just seem like a high price to pay (losing husband's trust) for maintaining a friendship even if the person gets off course.
> 
> But for the OP, I really think that situation is very inappropriate and call for drastic measure on the Husband's part. I was just throwing my question in the mix to see if was the GNO (at a bar) that was the problem, or just having questionable friends was the issue.


I think you make a great point with regards to the who versus the were and what not.
I think its a compination... like pouring water on a grease fire.

taken seperatly the toxic friend will suck in attention no matter were they go, or what time of day... as compared to committed marries women keeping their eyes down and focusing on what little time they have with their married coparts and making the best of the time together as they are committed to getting back to the babies and the hubby and all the long term reward that come with that commitment.

Were as the TF's have one thing and one thing only in mind...and that is bring there hotter married friend along to attract the guys.

*********disclaimer**********

My wife was hotter then all her TF and did their best to bring her along...I am in no way generalizing, but sharing my own perspective/experience on the GNO matter.


----------



## the guy

Nsweet said:


> And if you believe this, I feel sorry for you.:rofl:
> 
> Women may not need you to physically protect them or go out and kill something for nourishment, but they still need YOU. And putting your foot down and holding your ground on these relationship deal breakers is not about being alpha, it's not controlling her, it's about sex or vagina-fication or whatever you want to blame it on. It wouldn't matter if you were a married as you are or a lesbian couple. Keeping boundaries and being willing to walkaway if your partner crosses the line is the most adult thing you can do.


Great now I have to be all adult about things...Phuck it I ain't going to play anymore...its my ball and I'm going home.
Beside don't feel sorry for me I'm just the-guy with the cheating wife!

Seriously, :iagree:
The best advice OP can give his friend is to have the confidence in letting the wife go if boundries are crossed. This women, this marriage is on a very slippery slope and the issue alone is of great concren with ruining a family and thats nothing to laugh about!


----------



## Nsweet

the guy said:


> Great now I have to be all adult about things...Phuck it I ain't going to play anymore...its my ball and I'm going home.
> Beside don't feel sorry for me I'm just the-guy with the cheating wife!
> 
> Seriously, :iagree:
> The best advice OP can give his friend is to have the confidence in letting the wife go if boundries are crossed. This women, this marriage is on a very slippery slope and the issue alone is of great concren with ruining a family and thats nothing to laugh about!


And on that not I've already planned on what I would say to the next woman should things not work out. It goes along with the three words every woman wants to hear, and the three words they never want to hear. Those 3 words are "I love you". They want to hear that and at the right time and it's magical. And the three words they never want to hear you say "Yes, I'm free!":rofl:

Seriously, a lot of the divorced guys know this already... When they just threw their hands up and walked away from the drama their wives couldn't stand their lonely single freedom and wanted them back, at least for a while. It has a lot to do with giving someone exactly what they wanted and how it makes them just miserable. Sort of like how affairs are only fun and magical if your leaving your spouse with all the hard work at home and how they're just as tough when you no longer have that support and have to rely on some douch bag or some sl*t to take over as your spouse, which they can't do.


----------



## the guy

Interesting...I'm more familiar with "Please don't stop" and "It's starting to hurt"...
I guess they mean the same thing one way or another.


And sl*ts are a bad thing?


----------



## the guy

I guess its a matter of context if...I mean when Mrs. the guy was a sl*t for someone else then that was a bad thing, but now that things have changed...its not such a bad thing.
But then again I'm wired different then most.

I think we are losing point here...but then again if OP isn't talkinging about a "friend" and actually referring to him self then i better shut up.


----------



## Nsweet

Can't turn a ho into a house wife.


----------



## unbelievable

Entropy3000 said:


> The unfaithfulness to me would be her putting herself in this situation.
> 
> I am saying that if my wife announced this it would be sending me the message the marriage is over.
> 
> I would not accept this behavior. I would not accept my wife going out every week and doing non marriage friendly things.
> 
> I trust my wife to NOT do these.
> 
> My wife and I have been through all you describe. In no way does that mean I would accept unfaithfulness. But you are not me and I am not you.
> I will not accept my wife or myself doing those things in our marriage.
> 
> And what is it that I am supposed to trust? That she not run away with someone? That she not fall in love? Or that she not have PIV sex?
> I trust that my wife not choose toxic friends and to not put herself in a single situation.
> 
> You may be fine with your wife going out weekly, drinking and dancing with single women. I am not. But indeed maybe they are just going to dinner and then the wife will be home. He has not said what it is. Leaving out those details is like thing a grenade as it is all speculation.
> 
> I have done some winderful things for my wife and her family. I do not see that that means I can go clubbing with others.
> 
> You are completely dismissing the toxic venue, friends and frequency. You assume that this is 100% on character. Well go ahead and believe that.


If my wife wished to go drinking and dancing or swinging on a pole naked, it wouldn't matter if I was fine with it or not. I could choose to pitch a fit but she's still free to go or not. My wife doesn't want to do those things and if she were so inclined, I probably wouldn't have married her. I can't force faithfulness on anyone. I can't force love and devotion on anyone. If the only thing that keeps her around is some threat or ultimatum from me, she might as well hit the road. If I can't trust her for a night out with her friends, what would I do if I were taken POW for a few years or if I were shot and paralyzed? If I can't trust her, she's living at the wrong address.


----------



## ReformedHubby

I recently had a near disaster with the whole divorced toxic friend scenario. Once my wife saw that her friend had zero respect for our marital boundaries she ended the friendship. Today's single divorcees seem to be a lot more aggressive. My biggest pet peeve is that they fill your wife's head with how great the sex is. Sooooo tired of newly divorced people acting like they are the only people in the world who have good sex.

One thing your friends wife needs to realize is that misery loves company. We eventually found out that half the stuff my wife's toxic friend told her was lies. She is completely broke, unemployed, lonely, and barely surviving. She made it seem like she was happy to be without her husband, but after talking to him he says that she wants to come back but he has moved on. BTW, she met the guy she cheated with on a GNO. Its just bad for relationships.


----------



## Woodchuck

MSP said:


> It's silly that this is even an issue in a marriage. Essentially, this is the frame:
> 
> "Hi, honey, I'm going out to a place where men will be looking for women like me to hook up with. I'll be drinking and dancing and dressed as sexily as possible. I'll also be with friends who are looking to hook up with random guys. If you say I can't go I'll complain that you are controlling and unreasonable and don't trust me."
> 
> The husband should say something along the lines of him being uncomfortable with the kind of environment she will be in (make it about the environment and not about her) and that he does not want her to go. If she goes anyway, then the marriage has other issues.


Tell her "Honey, I might be stopping by that bar later on"...

Better yet, follow them and drop in a couple of times at random....That should keep her on the straight and narrow...

I would probably just say "Hell no" my wife is not going to be in the front counter in a meat market....

the woodchuck


----------



## Goldmember357

MSP said:


> It's silly that this is even an issue in a marriage. Essentially, this is the frame:
> 
> "Hi, honey, I'm going out to a place where men will be looking for women like me to hook up with. I'll be drinking and dancing and dressed as sexily as possible. I'll also be with friends who are looking to hook up with random guys. If you say I can't go I'll complain that you are controlling and unreasonable and don't trust me."
> 
> The husband should say something along the lines of him being uncomfortable with the kind of environment she will be in (make it about the environment and not about her) and that he does not want her to go. If she goes anyway, then the marriage has other issues.


:iagree:


----------



## tacoma

committed4ever said:


> Would any men have a serious problem if your wife was just friends with the same type ladies? Would you want her to drop them as friends too? In other words, not do any thing at all with them like shopping, inviting them to events you have at your home, etc., lunch etc.?
> 
> And a follow up question to that, if your wife *did not *drop them as friends with the type of activities listed above, what would you do?


I'd contact a divorce attorney and be sleeping with the girl at the gym by the following Friday.

This is why my wife will never come home and make the same announcement the OP's wife just made to him.

The announcement itself is an overt sign of disrespect.


----------



## Wiserforit

RFguy said:


> Thanks for the input, everyone!
> 
> Now another question: I believe that he's oblivious to the dangers of the whole GNO deal. Should I tell him?


Sounds too stupid to fix. 

Probably better to sell him time shares on beach condos at the south pole.


----------



## Entropy3000

committed4ever said:


> You're all right of course. Just seem like a high price to pay (losing husband's trust) for maintaining a friendship even if the person gets off course.
> 
> But for the OP, I really think that situation is very inappropriate and call for drastic measure on the Husband's part. I was just throwing my question in the mix to see if was the GNO (at a bar) that was the problem, or *just having questionable friends was the issue*.


Right. Good point. If I were him I would be worried about the combination.

It is kinda what's worse ... driving way too fast ... or driving drunk. The combo is terrifying.


----------



## Entropy3000

the guy said:


> Back in the day that would work so well when our protection was wanted, needed and respected.
> *These day women can take care of them selves*...except when it come to spiders then all deals are off and as men we are called to the plate to kill that arachnoid! But the next day our women will walk into that board room and own the day
> 
> The vagina-fication or men is upon us gents!
> 
> Now hurry up and read this post so I can delete it before Mrs. the-guy reads it!:rofl:


Totally besides the point. And no they can't. No more than men can. In a marriage it is partnership.


----------



## Entropy3000

the guy said:


> Interesting...I'm more familiar with "Please don't stop" and "It's starting to hurt"...
> I guess they mean the same thing one way or another.
> 
> 
> *And sl*ts are a bad thing?*


Only if you married her.


----------



## Entropy3000

unbelievable said:


> If my wife wished to go drinking and dancing or swinging on a pole naked, it wouldn't matter if I was fine with it or not.
> 
> *Sorry to hear this. It would if it were my wife.*
> 
> I could choose to pitch a fit but she's still free to go or not.
> 
> *I don't pitch fits. I demand respect. But I wuld not want that woman anyway. So I would no longer be married to her.*
> 
> My wife doesn't want to do those things and if she were so inclined, I probably wouldn't have married her.
> 
> *Agreed. However life is NOT static. Things change. People change. People can go down a bad road. If they are your partner you are on the hook to guide them. If they are hell bent to go down that road, you only enable them to encourage them. Good people make poor decisions. Many good people get in over their heads. Toxic friends and situations. *
> 
> I can't force faithfulness on anyone.
> 
> *No but you can find it unacceptable. See how that works?* *The thing is, is that unfaithfulness often sarts off as inappropriape behavior which is what we are talking about here. This is wehre you make the stand for the marriage.*
> 
> I can't force love and devotion on anyone.
> 
> *You can deal with the issues when they are relatively small. Like the squeaking breaks. Your words are all about what you cannot do.*
> 
> If the only thing that keeps her around is some threat or ultimatum from me, she might as well hit the road.
> 
> *So you are saying if she announced this you, you would tell her to hit the road. I will tell my wife this was unaccpetable and give her a chance to make a better decision before I cast her out.* *Again you are wanting to deal with the extremes and I am saying we have to live in a shades of gray world. That we have to deal with people and situations. You need to be part of your marriage in a dynamic way. But indeed you need to know the bottomline. The bottmline is that your will not accept disrespect. So deal with issues when they are small. Do not be a conflict avoider and hope for the best by just trusting. A couple is stroner when both partners are in the game together. Both thinking. Looking out for each other.*
> 
> If I can't trust her for a night out with her friends, what would I do if I were taken POW for a few years or if I were shot and paralyzed? If I can't trust her, she's living at the wrong address.
> 
> *So are you saying that the OP is talking about you. So hey I was in the military and while you may be able to trust your wife to this exent, you are rare indeed. I mean come on.* *Get serious. *
> 
> *You are assuming she is out to have a few drinks. I am saying that this has not been defined. Would you be fine with your wife telling you that from now on every Friday night she is on a GNO and going clubing, and not to wait up. That she will be dancing and meeting with other men? Now this is NOT in evidence ... yet.
> 
> I would not rust a wife who thought this was respectful behavior. I especially would not accpet this stuff when I was deployed. I have read too many letters from wives to husbands who are out getting laid while hubby is deployed.*


*So glad you love and trust your wife to the extreme. I do as well. But I would not trust my wife any longer if she hung with these women and the GNO was not friendly. YMMV.*

*But he OP is not talking about us or our wives.*

*He also has not described the GNO itself. But what husband should feel good about an "announcement" that every Friday noght is GNO night? WTF!? Are you down with that?* *NFW I am.*


----------



## Dollystanford

ReformedHubby said:


> I recently had a near disaster with the whole divorced toxic friend scenario. Once my wife saw that her friend had zero respect for our marital boundaries she ended the friendship. Today's single divorcees seem to be a lot more aggressive. My biggest pet peeve is that they fill your wife's head with how great the sex is. Sooooo tired of newly divorced people acting like they are the only people in the world who have good sex.


Can we just hold on a moment please. I'm divorced because my husband left me, not because I wanted to go and f*ck every man I could find. 

I resent the implication that I'm now somehow 'toxic' to my friends' marriages just by virtue of the fact that my ex wanted out. It's difficult enough to actually get back out there and try and have a bit of fun without thinking all your married friends are going to drop you because their husband is insecure. For the record I spent a lot of Saturday night telling my married friend how to reconnect with her husband (they are having various issues)

So, um, screw you guys!


----------



## Entropy3000

tacoma said:


> I'd contact a divorce attorney and be sleeping with the girl at the gym by the following Friday.
> 
> This is why my wife will never come home and make the same announcement the OP's wife just made to him.
> 
> The announcement itself is an overt sign of disrespect.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Entropy3000

Dollystanford said:


> Can we just hold on a moment please. I'm divorced because my husband left me, not because I wanted to go and f*ck every man I could find.
> 
> I resent the implication that I'm now somehow 'toxic' to my friends' marriages just by virtue of the fact that my ex wanted out. It's difficult enough to actually get back out there and try and have a bit of fun without thinking all your married friends are going to drop you because their husband is insecure. For the record I spent a lot of Saturday night telling my married friend how to reconnect with her husband (they are having various issues)
> 
> So, um, screw you guys!


Dolly, dolly, dolly ... come on now.

This guys wife announced she is going to be on a GNO every freaking Friday night. GMAFB. What does this mean really? Idunno. No information provided. A morality play of specualtion ensues.

Now I do get your point here. But what is described is a wife putting her hubby on notice she is going out and with not just divorced folks but with at least one known cheater.



> I know them well and his wife is not the kind who will fool around. However, the other two girls are what I would call "toxic". One is recently divorced, so probably on the lookout. The other one is the most "toxic" of the two. She's currently single, has cheated on all of her previous relationships and is notorious for having ONSs.


I think if my wife had you as a friend I would feel very good about it. But I would not be ok with her going clubbing with you and some other woman who was a known cheater. I would not be ok with my wife goign clubbing with married women either. You would probably have her back.

So my issue would be the clubbing. IF there were toxic friends that would lead me to believe my wife was having serious mental / emotional issues.

Indeed I am NOT saying you would be a toxic friend because you were no longer married. 

A group of women getting together to chat over some dinner and drinks is one thing. Who knows what the OP is talking about because they have not reposted. Which speaks volumes.

Never did he say clubbing. But to me this would be something I would be communciating wth my wife about. I could very much see an end of week meeting for dinner and a few drinks and then coming home after that on a Friday night. But why Friday night. Why date night? My stance on this has everything to do with what the GNO is. My wife would never annouce this to me. Not because she would be afraid of anything. I really get the feeling she respects me. If she were to do this it would be an indicator we have other very big problems.

But yes, it would be wrong to out a friend because they are divorced based on that alone. That would be very cruel.


----------



## Dollystanford

Exactly, who knows what the OP is posting about 

Yet an awful lot of assumptions are being made by other posters in this thread. So excuse me if I make a few of my own

Everyone immediately jumps on the toxic friends bandwagon. Perhaps the wife is the toxic one. She's the one who has the marriage but feels a desire to go out once a week and doesn't respect her husband enough to even bother to ask him about it. Perhaps your disdain should be reserved for her


----------



## Entropy3000

Dollystanford said:


> Exactly, who knows what the OP is posting about
> 
> Yet an awful lot of assumptions are being made by other posters in this thread. So excuse me if I make a few of my own
> 
> Everyone immediately jumps on the toxic friends bandwagon. Perhaps the wife is the toxic one. She's the one who has the marriage but feels a desire to go out once a week and doesn't respect her husband enough to even bother to ask him about it. Perhaps your disdain should be reserved for her


Agreed. 

Even if the friends are "toxic" it is all on the wife. One has to wonder what the rest of the relationship is doing. That matters big time.

This is just a symptom of much bigger issues.


----------



## RFguy

Dollystanford said:


> Exactly, who knows what the OP is posting about
> 
> Yet an awful lot of assumptions are being made by other posters in this thread. So excuse me if I make a few of my own
> 
> Everyone immediately jumps on the toxic friends bandwagon. Perhaps the wife is the toxic one. She's the one who has the marriage but feels a desire to go out once a week and doesn't respect her husband enough to even bother to ask him about it. Perhaps your disdain should be reserved for her


I wouldn't post here if there weren't some weird vibes in the air.

I will add later some more details that will make it clearer.


----------



## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby

Going out once in a while is fine, but once a week seems excessive and an unnecessary expense. Hubby and I took turns going out with our friends. Not together since we never trusted babysitters. Our nights out would never last for more then a couple hours and it usually took place over dinner.

Neither of us would go out to the bar or clubbing either. It was always with a group of friends at some restaurant. Neither hubby nor I drink alcohol either.

Neither of us go out like that anymore. Once every year or so hubby and I will do a double date now the kids are old enough to stay home. It's hard for me to leave the house anyways. We prefer to spend time at home watching a movie or shows on Netflix.


----------



## heartsbeating

Dollystanford said:


> I resent the implication that I'm now somehow 'toxic' to my friends' marriages just by virtue of the fact that my ex wanted out. It's difficult enough to actually get back out there and try and have a bit of fun without thinking all your married friends are going to drop you because their husband is insecure. For the record I spent a lot of Saturday night telling my married friend how to reconnect with her husband (they are having various issues)


The idea of toxic friends is shifting responsibility from the wife and their marriage. I agree with the assumption you wrote after this Dolly. If a married woman is declaring Friday nights are GNO, it's on her and their relationship.

My single friends have been supportive of my relationship too and they adore hubs.


----------



## heartsbeating

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> Going out once in a while is fine, but once a week seems excessive and an unnecessary expense. Hubby and I took turns going out with our friends. Not together since we never trusted babysitters. Our nights out would never last for more then a couple hours and it usually took place over dinner.
> 
> Neither of us would go out to the bar or clubbing either. It was always with a group of friends at some restaurant. Neither hubby nor I drink alcohol either.
> 
> Neither of us go out like that anymore. Once every year or so hubby and I will do a double date now the kids are old enough to stay home. It's hard for me to leave the house anyways. We prefer to spend time at home watching a movie or shows on Netflix.


Clubbing doesn't appeal to me in the slightest anymore. I'd rather dance at home in our living room, with music we actually like, and preferably in my pajamas. 

Hubs and I are normally social together. If I meet up with a girlfriend, it'd be for a meal or tea/glass of wine. Friday night, a couple of girlfriends (who are married) and I arranged to meet after work at a restaurant for a quick wine. This turned into several wines and a bite to eat. Hubs said to have a good time, I don't do it often, and just asked that I let him know when I was leaving so he knew I'd get home safely. Friend and I shared a cab. We all text one another to ensure we arrive home safely. 

At a restaurant, and quote "My wife is sitting over the other side, so I really shouldn't even be coming over to talk to a couple of gorgeous blondes..." I reaffirmed his sentiment, that no he shouldn't and he best go back and keep his wife company.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Dollystanford said:


> Can we just hold on a moment please. I'm divorced because my husband left me, not because I wanted to go and f*ck every man I could find.
> 
> I resent the implication that I'm now somehow 'toxic' to my friends' marriages just by virtue of the fact that my ex wanted out. It's difficult enough to actually get back out there and try and have a bit of fun without thinking all your married friends are going to drop you because their husband is insecure. For the record I spent a lot of Saturday night telling my married friend how to reconnect with her husband (they are having various issues)
> 
> So, um, screw you guys!


Good points. I am really referring to people that are like my wife's former friend. Most divorced people just want to put their lives back together, not wreck homes.

When someone mentions the words toxic friend around here people tend to run and grab their torches and pickforks. At the end of the day though as much as we like to think we have control its really up to our spouses to realize that certain situations could be harmful to their marriage.


----------



## committed4ever

ReformedHubby said:


> Good points. I am really referring to people that are like my wife's former friend. Most divorced people just want to put their lives back together, not wreck homes.
> 
> When someone mentions the words toxic friend around here people tend to run and grab their torches and pickforks. _*At the end of the day though as much as we like to think we have control its really up to our spouses to realize that certain situations could be harmful to their marriage.*_


_*
*_

Ha! Tell that to my H. He thinks he is the one with the keen sensitive to identify potential harm to the marriage because my only relationship has been him. He doesn't trust my new acquired TAM knowledge. LOL!


----------



## Dollystanford

But that's inexperience and insecurity and that's inevitable when you've never been in a relationship before I think. I'm not a proponent of any sort of relationship where you feel the need to watch over your spouse like a hawk or turn up unannounced on a night out or pay someone to try and pull them or gather evidence against them

Who needs the dramarama


----------



## Sanity

Had a friend who's wife was textbook "perfect wife" when I first met her. Loved her family and was pretty but dressed very conservatively. She got a job in marketing making great money and started going out to the promotional events which included late night bars and drinks. Her husband (my friend) told her that a married women with two kids doesn't go out partying coming home at 2 am smelling of alcohol and cigars. She blew it off and he filed for divorce.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RFguy

The info I promised earlier: 

The recently divorced friend is my now ex-GF. Our R was going down the drain for some time now and for the last two weeks I was preparing myself to end it once and for all. 

Five days ago, my GF went for coffee with the other girls. When she came back she announced to me in a matter-of-fact way that from now on every Friday she and her friends will go out for coctails (her words). 

Upon hearing this, alarm bells went off in my head but I kept my cool and acted nonchalant. Why? Because normally I have to use an industrial strength crane to tow her out of the house. She was always bored or tired and never wanted to go out. And the other thing is that her whole face was glowing with excitement as she announced the GNO.

And then she added with some disappointment that they will be out only till 11pm because one of the friends lives far away and has to leave early.

Isn't that a huge red flag or am I crazy?

Two days ago I left her for reasons unrelated to the GNO deal.


----------



## toonaive

Private Investigator. No good can come of this.


----------



## treyvion

In a previous marriage I was doing guys nite out with a similar level of guy friends. You couldn't have explained to me at the time that it was a bad thing. In my mind I was having fun. Over time I ended up doing the same things these single men were doing. These women are on the prowl, no good reason for wife to be there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## 2ntnuf

RFguy said:


> The info I promised earlier:
> 
> The recently divorced friend is my now ex-GF. Our R was going down the drain for some time now and for the last two weeks I was preparing myself to end it once and for all.
> 
> Five days ago, my GF went for coffee with the other girls. When she came back she announced to me in a matter-of-fact way that from now on *every Friday* she and her friends *will go out for coctails (her words). *
> 
> 
> This is going to be highly unpopular. I once heard someone say in relation to a similar situation, "If she can go out with her girlfriends, I can go out with mine." Take it for what it's worth.
> Upon hearing this, alarm bells went off in my head but I kept my cool and acted nonchalant. Why? Because normally I have to use an industrial strength crane to tow her out of the house. She was always bored or tired and never wanted to go out. And the other thing is that *her whole face was glowing* with excitement as she announced the GNO.
> 
> But, you didn't say it was glowing when you asked her out. I think you are better off without her. She wants to go out and have fun. It's time to back away from that relationship.
> 
> And then she added with some disappointment that they will be out only till 11pm because one of the friends lives far away and has to leave early.
> 
> Although the time of day matters some, anything can happen at any time of day.
> 
> Isn't that a huge red flag or am I crazy?
> 
> The only red flag I see is that she said she is going out every Friday and if you are in a mutually exclusive, committed relationship, I think you two would discuss boundaries. Otherwise, she can always do what she wants, committed or not. It's really up to you what you want to tolerate. What are your boundaries? If your boundaries are not met, leave the relationship and live and let live.
> 
> Two days ago I left her for reasons unrelated to the GNO deal.


I wonder if those reasons were connected in any way to your questions?


----------



## committed4ever

Dollystanford said:


> But that's inexperience and insecurity and that's inevitable when you've never been in a relationship before I think. I'm not a proponent of any sort of relationship where you feel the need to watch over your spouse like a hawk or turn up unannounced on a night out or pay someone to try and pull them or gather evidence against them
> 
> Who needs the dramarama


He doesn't do any of that because I don't do anything that warrant that. His big concern is my one remaining childhood friend that he consider to be toxic. To me we only do harmless things together like shopp lunch (we work together). She has done something questionable in her marriage but I don't think it her life style. She trying to be back on track.


----------



## committed4ever

toonaive said:


> Private Investigator. No good can come of this.


Why in the world would you spend money on a PI for a GF? Cheaper to end the relationship. It certainly won't get any better with a deeper level of commitment.


----------



## Cosmos

If the GNO involves a few drinks then dinner or the cinema - fine. If it involves a night hanging around bars or clubs - not fine. It's also not fine that this is going to be a weekly occurrence.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

As a husband, I would not have any problems with my wife doing a GNO with friends. But there has to be a clear cut understanding that she wouldn't do anything to put our marriage at risk. I have no problem with my wife going out with girlfriends for dinner, movies, playing mini-golf or going to a casual bar to hang out. But if my wife wants to go out with a mixed group - then I'm going too. Also, my wife can go out dancing as much as she wants as long as I'm there with her. I hold dancing as something special that only my wife and I will do together. Dancing can be quite intimate so I would NOT be cool with my wife going to a meat market nightclub to go dancing and have men buy her drinks. I also subscribe to the belief that my wife needs to keep Cinderella in mind when she goes out on a GNO. I would not be cool with her staying out past midnight. My wife and I have 3 kids together. Going out with GFs to have some fun and to get away from the house and kids is fine, but at the end of the night she is a wife and a mom. She needs to remember that.

BTW, same rules apply to me as well when I go out. Also, declaring Friday night off limits to me because GNO's are going on that night is a no no. I have the right of first refusal, meaning Friday and Saturday nights are mine first. If we have nothing planned, then a GNO or a MNO can happen. 

I am not the type of guy that GPS tracks, calls or show up unannounced whenever my wife is on a GNO. I trust my wife. But we also have clear cut boundaries about what is acceptable and what is not. My wife doesn't want me going to strip clubs, so she cannot go to nightclubs - since nightclubs are heavily skewed towards men trying to get into women's pants.


----------



## unbelievable

Entropy3000 said:


> *So glad you love and trust your wife to the extreme. I o as well. But I would not trust my wife any longer if she hung with these women and the GNO was not friendly. YMMV.*
> 
> *But he OP is not talking about us or our wives.*
> 
> *He also has not described the GNO itself. But what husband should feel good about an "announcement" that every Friday noght is GNO night? WTF!? Are you down with that?* *NFW I am.*


While I was deployed, I had zero control over where she went or what she did. If I get sent out again next month, I'll be in the same position. I can't have a wife I don't trust. If my wife said she intended to go out with girlfriends, I wouldn't have a problem with it because if they intended something wrong, she wouldn't be going with them. Once there, if temptation pops his head up, I can trust that she'll do the right thing. If I get to the point where I can't trust her out of my sight, I won't need her in my sight, either.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Ok.
Lets broaden our perspective.
Contextual.

Thee term " toxic " used in the context of this thread is really an urban spin to a word that initially meant poisonous.
Here are two meanings of the word " toxic" in the context of this thread.

1]Toxic 
Something or someone that is attractive and makes you addicted to it or him/her.
2]Toxic 
Used to describe a person who is tainted by a subconscious malevolence or psychosis that affects the lifes of those who come into contact with them.

During the first two years of our marriage, I used to go clubbing with some guy friends. My wife didn't have a problem with it.
One time , I went with one of my single guy friend and upon entering the club and sitting at the bar, he alerted me to a group of girls seated not too far from us.
Told him I was not interested, but I dared him to go across.
Before he could move, they came across to us, and one introduced me to her Columbian friend who couldn't speak English.
Told me her friend wanted to dance with me.
I obliged, and everything began to escalate from there, _she did the escalating._
Spanish women are very sensual and with a little alcohol and music,they begin to express their sexuality.
Before long I knew exactly where this was heading,she wanted sex. He body movements were a " _vertical expression of her horizontal desires._"
I knew this because when I was single, I had been there done that, and decided I was not going there with her or any other woman beside my wife.
I left the club, went back home to my wife and stopped clubbing and hanging out with that group of guy friends.
They became " toxic " to me , because their lifestyle was in direct conflict with mine and it was beginning to influence mine.


----------



## Shaggy

I'd basically say,

Ok, so from now on Friday nights are I get to go out and act like I'm single nights.

So honey the money and effort that you will be spending to buy the hottest clothes, the highest heels and best makeup, I'll me spending too on my Friday nights.

I'll need some new clothes, a hair cut, and I'll be going out to some clubs buying drinks and meeting women who are out on GNO.

Remind her that you should exchange what clubs you will be going to hang and be single at, otherwise it might be awkward.


----------



## Entropy3000

committed4ever said:


> [/B][/I]
> 
> Ha! Tell that to my H. He thinks he is the one with the keen sensitive to identify potential harm to the marriage because my only relationship has been him. He doesn't trust my new acquired TAM knowledge. LOL!



I think your hubs is awesome. He should not trust others about his marriage. We should expect our spouses to make good decisions. But none of us is perfect and none of us is immune either. So we look out for each other.


----------



## Entropy3000

committed4ever said:


> He doesn't do any of that because I don't do anything that warrant that. His big concern is my one remaining childhood friend that he consider to be toxic. To me we only do harmless things together like shopp lunch (we work together). She has done something questionable in her marriage but I don't think it her life style. She trying to be back on track.


This is the freind that caused much of the drama for you. Yes, I recall your thread on this. 

I think you decided to just keep her as a freind but to do more marriage freindly things together. Not to rehash your threead but I recall that one or more of the single women were hooking up on those GNOs. Do I have that correctly?


----------



## Entropy3000

Cosmos said:


> If the GNO involves a few drinks then dinner or the cinema - fine. If it involves a night hanging around bars or clubs - not fine. It's also not fine that this is going to be a weekly occurrence.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

B I N G O


----------



## Entropy3000

committed4ever said:


> Why in the world would you spend money on a PI for a GF? Cheaper to end the relationship. It certainly won't get any better with a deeper level of commitment.


Right. I thought this was about the other married guy.

This sounds more like dating advice was being asked for.

:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

But this little tidbit of trickle truth was all well and good. Ok c0cktails and home at 11pm. That beats see ya when I see ya. I have a problem with it being every Friday night. What is up with that for the married guy. But we have zero information about the married guy and his relationship.

I guess we are done here. It might have been easier if this thread was about the GF to begin with. We could have gotten to your advice above right away.

Drama ... LOL.


----------



## toonaive

No idea what state the OP lives in. I live in an "at fault" state. If the man is THAT worried about his wife's possible actions, Or the actions of her friends. He can get the information he needs, quickly, without dragging it out week after week. The best offensive move, can come from strong defense.


----------



## StillSearching

Dollystanford said:


> Divorced so 'probably on the lookout'??? Nice
> 
> Or perhaps she just wants a few drinks and to chat with a couple of close friends. We don't all jump on the nearest wang you know


I got two names for you OP. Style and Mystery. It's done everyday without them even knowing its happening. No GNO like this. The best say NEVER let your girl go out on a GNO without backup.


----------



## committed4ever

Entropy3000 said:


> This is the freind that caused much of the drama for you. Yes, I recall your thread on this.
> 
> I think you decided to just keep her as a freind but to do more marriage freindly things together. Not to rehash your threead but I recall that one or more of the single women were hooking up on those GNOs. Do I have that correctly?


Thats correct. And H think she (married friend) is still toxic because she still does things with those single ladies (but not hookup bars). I disagree with H on this.


----------



## committed4ever

toonaive said:


> No idea what state the OP lives in. I live in an "at fault" state. If the man is THAT worried about his wife's possible actions, Or the actions of her friends. He can get the information he needs, quickly, without dragging it out week after week. The best offensive move, can come from strong defense.


There seems to be confusion because he says it girlfriend not wife. That's why I say why get PI if it's just a GF.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

MrBrains said:


> I got two names for you OP. Style and Mystery. It's done everyday without them even knowing its happening. No GNO like this. *The best say NEVER let your girl go out on a GNO without backup.*


What does that mean?


----------



## Entropy3000

committed4ever said:


> Thats correct. And H think she (married friend) is still toxic because she still does things with those single ladies (but not hookup bars). I disagree with H on this.


Understood. I trust this is just one of those things couples have to work through over time. I hope this is not something that is going to cause too much grief.

This has much gray in it. If my wife is doing marriage friendly GNOs I am happy. I like for her to have these. I show no great interest in who the people are per se. I trust my wifes judgement in this. Instead I try to stay in tune with my wife period. In fact we are still increasing our communication and intimacy. Just these past weeks have been a giant leap forward. Its a process. But if I am talking with my wife, I can pick up on things. She is the one who counts to me. She is not one to succumb to peer pressure anyway. That said she can be pretty naive and trusting too.


----------



## StillSearching

Plan 9 from OS said:


> What does that mean?


The best pick up artists in the world who train thousands of guys on technique would NEVER let the women go on a GNO. I would not either. It burned me more than once. Girls like to go out when they are ovulating. Even if they don't know they are.


----------



## committed4ever

Entropy3000 said:


> Understood. *I trust this is just one of those things couples have to work through over time. I hope this is not something that is going to cause too much grief.*
> 
> *I don't think it will come between us. I think we can work it out. *
> 
> This has much gray in it. If my wife is doing marriage friendly GNOs I am happy. I like for her to have these. I show no great interest in who the people are per se. I trust my wifes judgement in this. *Instead I try to stay in tune with my wife period. In fact we re still increasing our communication and intimacy. Just these past weeks have been a giant leap forward. Its a process. *
> *
> I think thats awesome! Because you guys have been married a while right?*
> 
> But if I am talking with my wife, I can pick up on things. She is the one who counts to me. She is not one to succumb to peer pressure anyway. That said she can be pretty naive and trusting too.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

MrBrains said:


> The best pick up artists in the world who train thousands of guys on technique would NEVER let the women go on a GNO. I would not either. It burned me more than once. Girls like to go out when they are ovulating. Even if they don't know they are.


It all depends on what type of GNO you're talking about. If it's going with crazy and loose GF's to nightclubs with lots of dancing and drinking plus staying out until 2 am or later, then sure I agree. But if we're talking about marriage friendly GNO's then I disagree with you 100%.

I'm still curious about what you meant by "without backup". Were you talking about a PI tailing the wife, GPS tracking, VAR, condoms, morning after pill?


----------



## doubletrouble

I almost wish my wife would go out sometimes. Since our DDay, she's holed up in the house and doesn't want to go anywhere or do anything without me or her daughter. 

I am also fine with that. I just want her to enjoy life. She's really really good at giving men the brushoff (well, except for that one guy...). And she's too hot to go out alone (much to my satisfaction BTW) -- she WILL get hit on!

And that's the nut of the rest of it, as someone else posted. once the trust is broken, no matter how hard you both try, it never comes back 100%. So it's best to live by your committment to the marriage and not put yourself into situations where there is alcohol and drunk, horny people.


----------



## Entropy3000

MrBrains said:


> The best pick up artists in the world who train thousands of guys on technique would NEVER let the women go on a GNO. I would not either. It burned me more than once. Girls like to go out when they are ovulating. Even if they don't know they are.


The problem here is just what is a GNO.

If it is taking a break from being married and acting single I agree.

However, GNOs themselves are IMO essential. We cannot lock each other away from the world. So we have to agree on boundaries. 

You will get beat up on the ovulation thing but it is significant. Women show more skin, find a more agressive male more attractive and in general are more likely to push the envelope. Just as when my testosterone is spiking. But really and truly the key is to avoid high risk situations period. Date your wife. If there is clubbing ... be there. 

If my wife needs male attention to that extent I really do not want to stand in her way. She can be single. Her choice. But if it truly is just the ladies getting together for dinner, drinks and a movie, then I am down with that. 

The trouble is when GNO is defined as Girls Night Out with men not their husbands. I totally get the fun. But how many wives would be ok with their hubby's going to the club without them to "dance"?


----------



## Entropy3000

We have been married 36+ years!! We have had some of the best times in recent weeks.

Things have ebbed and flowed. We got very disconnected over a period of years due to many things but mostly over work. It was a sprialling shut down.

Add to this hormonal changes and issues with my step daughter that have drained us both.

Before I had an EA, there was a SIDS death of a baby my wife was caring for. I only recently stepped back from things and realized it likely contributed to us disconnecting to a high degree. I punished myself for my EA for almost 15 years.

There was a time we were on opposite shifts. Many years I worked two jobs.

Interspersed with all of this were some great times and fun trips and so on.

But we seem to be back in high gear again. I was hoping for this, but it was a leap of faith and was not really expecting it would come back this well. I want it to last. So that is where my efforts are now.


----------



## Dollystanford

MrBrains said:


> The best pick up artists in the world who train thousands of guys on technique would NEVER let the women go on a GNO. I would not either. It burned me more than once. Girls like to go out when they are ovulating. Even if they don't know they are.


You can get trained by a self confessed pick up artist? Awesome! How much do they charge for that then? Do they get their money back if it doesn't work?

Just because you choose women with no boundaries doesn't mean none of us have them. Perhaps you need to adjust your woman picker, kwim?


----------



## Nsweet

Dollystanford said:


> You can get trained by a self confessed pick up artist? Awesome! How much do they charge for that then? Do they get their money back if it doesn't work?
> 
> Just because you choose women with no boundaries doesn't mean none of us have them. Perhaps you need to adjust your woman picker, kwim?


Depends.... Between $1000 and $3000 for a group session with in field action, that will probably only work that weekend before the adrenaline wears off and you're back to normal. Or $10-$100 for an ebook and/or video course, or free if you know where to get them like me. 

Guys don't waste your time with the so called gurus, they're just emotional abusers who prey on easy women and use the mean and sweet cycle to push/pull women into a state of dependence and learned helplessness a la cult recruiting tactics.

And these PUA are the most f*cked up men you can find who label all women wh*res and c*nts because all they pick up is girls with loose boundaries who cheat on their relationships and fall for the silliest words and stupidest ploys these losers use to mask their not so subtle attempts to hit on women.


----------



## Entropy3000

OMG. This is now a PUA thread. Good grief!! :rofl:

I think I am just cuddly and fun. I listen and am playful. Some women just want to take me home. I think it is that I am genuinely interested in them. Like a Teddy bear perhpas. Idunno. YMMV. But of course this is all moot for me as I am married.

Are we far afield yet?


----------



## jaquen

Entropy3000 said:


> This is not about you Darlin.
> 
> Folks can beat me up but if I was willing to put myself in that clubbing scenario on a weekly basis with toxic friends I would probably be divorced very soon. Because that is a singles life style.
> 
> I am not talking about a few guys having some drinks.
> 
> I am talking about clubbing. Drinking and dancing with women. No. I know me. And I like women way too much to play that game. Weak? Maybe. Probably just honest. If I am going to be doing that with a group of women, some number will want to take me home with them. Can I say no? Sure and I have. But if I am doing this weekly I would out looking for some strange. Duh!



I don't have a lot of patience for these tired GNO/toxic friends/blame everyone but your crappy spouse TAM BS threads...

But this is spot on. Here is a man being honest about his own achilles heel and adjusting his behaviour accordingly. To me that's what matters. Know thyself. And be honest with yourself about who, and what, you see in the proverbial mirror. 

There are plenty of people who can go out and will never cheat. And there are those who go out, say they'll never cheat, but are lying to their spouses and to themselves. There are lots of people in the latter category who wake up with strange and then just claim "I don't know what happened!".


----------



## StillSearching

Dollystanford said:


> You can get trained by a self confessed pick up artist? Awesome! How much do they charge for that then? Do they get their money back if it doesn't work?
> 
> Just because you choose women with no boundaries doesn't mean none of us have them. Perhaps you need to adjust your woman picker, kwim?


Yes you can. You would not even know it was happening to you. It's real. It happens everyday. Boundaries are one thing, biology it quite the other.


----------



## SomedayDig

Our former friends, the wives and Regret would do the 3am GNO's a LOT. They were all drinkers and would go to the "hip" places to dance in downtown. The envelope was pushed each and every GNO. A few of the wives would leave early cuz they knew where things were going. I only learned of this sh-t after Dday, of course.

Fast foward to present time. Regret has done 3 GNO's with colleagues from work. They go to a restaurant or once went to a film premier about education (I passed on that one so it became a GNO! ). They sit and chat while have one or two drinks. She's home by 9pm. The vibe is totally different.

Again - I find it interesting that our former friends "dumped" us because I told the xOM's wife about the affair. They all blamed me for breaking up the marriage. Kinda tells ya their viewpoint on infidelity.

GNO's in and of themselves aren't the problem. Just like Guys night out aren't the problem. If someone is gonna f-ck around, they're gonna do it regardless.


----------



## SomedayDig

MrBrains said:


> Yes you can. You would not even know it was happening to you. It's real. It happens everyday. Boundaries are one thing, biology it quite the other.


Oh, boy. Here comes a biology lesson. Lemme guess, we're gonna talk about the limbic system and the rationalization kangaroo now.


----------



## MrK

If the husband doesn't understand the dynamics of this type of GNO, there is NO WAY he will find the balls to explain his reservations to his wife. He will need to let her go at least one night and spy. A friend who doesn't know her will work, PI will be best.

"You just don't trust me and want to control me" can be answered with "well, I did trust you and I still don't want to control you, but I'd like to think you would stay away from activities like this". Then show her the cell phone video montage your PI put together.

Why are we even up to 10 pages? She is obviously going out to party with strange men. If he's good with that, leave it alone. If not, warn him.


----------



## committed4ever

jaquen said:


> *I don't have a lot of patience for these tired GNO/toxic friends/blame everyone but your crappy spouse TAM BS threads...*
> 
> But this is spot on. Here is a man being honest about his own achilles heel and adjusting his behaviour accordingly. To me that's what matters. Know thyself. And be honest with yourself about who, and what, you see in the proverbial mirror.
> 
> There are plenty of people who can go out and will never cheat. And there are those who go out, say they'll never cheat, but are lying to their spouses and to themselves. There are lots of people in the latter category who wake up with strange and then just claim "I don't know what happened!".


Yeah but this one was clearly label as such. Guess you just couldn’t resist the urge to click, huh?


----------



## Dollystanford

MrBrains said:


> Yes you can. You would not even know it was happening to you. It's real. It happens everyday. Boundaries are one thing, biology it quite the other.


*nose pinch*


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Dollystanford said:


> Can we just hold on a moment please. I'm divorced because my husband left me, not because I wanted to go and f*ck every man I could find.
> 
> I resent the implication that I'm now somehow 'toxic' to my friends' marriages just by virtue of the fact that my ex wanted out. It's difficult enough to actually get back out there and try and have a bit of fun without thinking all your married friends are going to drop you because their husband is insecure. For the record I spent a lot of Saturday night telling my married friend how to reconnect with her husband (they are having various issues)
> 
> So, um, screw you guys!


I don't think it is the divorced friend that is the problem ... it is the setting for GNO. My wife's version of GNO is to have dinner with her friends. Sometimes they go to somebody's house and play games and talk. She doesn't drink. She can have all the divorced single female friends she wants.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

MrBrains said:


> Yes you can. You would not even know it was happening to you. It's real. It happens everyday. Boundaries are one thing, biology it quite the other.


Time out. Our ability to think and reason trumps our biological impulses in most cases. For a married woman to be susceptible to PUA moves, she would either have to 1) have had a really bad falling out with her husband right before she went out with her friends that made her susceptible to her biology overcoming her higher brain functions or 2) she is regularly on the lookout for opportunities for "extra" fun. For most women, I believe that if they are in a committed relationship and believe in the relationship, a PUA will not be successful.


----------



## jaquen

My wife and I do not control each other's friends or social lives. Neither one of us are interested in the least with parenting one another. We are adults. We both make our feelings and expectations known and then trust the other to make the best decision. My wife, when she was my girlfriend, had MALE friends that I knew were just using friendship as a front to f*ck, and I told her as much. I said "watch him, trust me, he'll eventually show you exactly what he wants". She said "Oh no baby, not him, he's just a friend". And yet every guy I pointed out eventually made his intentions known. 

But here's the thing, I didn't need to put down ultimatums. To voice displeasure. I trusted her to make the right decision when the time came, and she always did. She did that with those male friends, and did that when her best friend on the planet, a woman she considered her sister, turned the very definition of "toxic" and went on a rampage attacking our relationship and me. A week later her "sister" was cut out so much that my wife, then girlfriend, wouldn't even speak her name. She was the godmother to this woman's child, a child she adored, and she even gave her up.


It's not that you don't have boundaries or standards for your relationship. It's that you marry someone who respects you totally enough that they never need policing. 


This is a very, very unpopular opinion for a lot of TAMers. But some of us are simply not interested in being married to people whom we have to have shadowed, put VARs on, or police. By my very expectations for my wife I demand respect, and trust that she will always respect me. So I trust that she'll act accordingly, and the feeling is mutual.

She knows what I demand in a relationship. I know what she demands in a relationship. We expect one another to walk in the world in a way that respects one another and our marriage. 

And should a time come when that respect is gone, and we can no longer trust? The marriage, as we define it, is over.


----------



## jaquen

committed4ever said:


> Yeah but this one was clearly label as such. Guess you just couldn’t resist the urge to click, huh?


Note I said I don't have "a lot of patience". Which does not mean I have "no patience".


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

jaquen said:


> It's not that you don't have boundaries or standards for your relationship. It's that you marry someone who respects you totally enough that they never need policing.


I agree completely. I don't have to monitor my wife. I trust her in this area without question ... but she also doesn't cross boundaries (these boundaries anyway). One boundary would be not going out to a bar or club with single friends, drinking and coming home just before the sun comes up.

Actually, she usually doesn't go anywhere that she couldn't also take our daughters. She does take our daughters on the occasion that one of the other moms can't get anyone to watch her kids.


----------



## committed4ever

jaquen said:


> Note I said I don't have "a lot of patience". Which does not mean I have "no patience".


Just kidding with you Jaquen

By the way you and your wife seem to have a great marriage. My H and I still have some bumps along the way... the kind you point out in your thread. But we just love each other so much we willing to do whatever it takes to make it work. 

We continue to move forward and not lose what we gain.


----------



## StillSearching

SomedayDig said:


> Oh, boy. Here comes a biology lesson. Lemme guess, we're gonna talk about the limbic system and the rationalization kangaroo now.


O boy if I pick a book I might read it. Better not tempt my brain.


----------



## SomedayDig

Wait...Jaquen, are you saying I gotta return the GPS ankle bracelet? Dude! Amazon is gonna charge me a restocking fee now.


----------



## SomedayDig

MrBrains said:


> O boy if I pick a book I might read it. Better not tempt my brain.


LMAO...depends on your reference material.


----------



## StillSearching

SomedayDig said:


> LMAO...depends on your reference material.


I'm not laughing. Reference Science. It's how things work.


----------



## StillSearching

SomedayDig said:


> LMAO...depends on your reference material.


Play the odds against Mother Nature with your wife. I choose not to.


----------



## SomedayDig

MrBrains said:


> I'm not laughing. Reference Science. It's how things work.


Give me a book, Brains. Tell me specifically what book you are referencing. Cite pages and/or the studies. I will read them.

By the way - THIS....









is NOT a reference material.


----------



## Nucking Futs

MrBrains said:


> Play the odds against Mother Nature with your wife. *I choose not to.*


You know we can all see your thread, right?


----------



## StillSearching

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B001KPO1OA/ref=mp_s_a_1_fkmr0_1?qid=1370883113&sr=8-1-fkmr0&pi=SL75

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0321651782/ref=mp_s_a_1_fkmr0_2?qid=1370883163&sr=8-2-fkmr0&pi=SL75

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0415881463/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1370883234&sr=8-1&pi=SL75

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0393334791/ref=mp_s_a_1_7?qid=1370883264&sr=8-7&pi=SL75

How many days do you need me to do this. And yes MMSL is based in science as well. But I can keep going if you need me too.


----------



## StillSearching

Nucking Futs said:


> You know we can all see your thread, right?


Of course.... I don't let my wife go in GNOs.


----------



## jaquen

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> I agree completely. I don't have to monitor my wife. I trust her in this area without question ... but she also doesn't cross boundaries (these boundaries anyway). One boundary would be not going out to a bar or club with single friends, drinking and coming home just before the sun comes up.
> 
> Actually, she usually doesn't go anywhere that she couldn't also take our daughters. She does take our daughters on the occasion that one of the other moms can't get anyone to watch her kids.


The boundaries are there even without the monitoring. 

I'll give an example. Sometimes last year my wife and I were in bed together and somehow the topic of "50 Shades of Grey" popped up. She mentioned that she'd been recently given a copy as a gift. I asked by whom, and she said "Bob". I laughed and said "no really, who", to which she reiterated her co-worker "Bob. You know Bob, I've mentioned him before." I lost it. I said "Who the f*ck is Bob and why the f*ck is he giving my wife a copy of 50 Shades of Grey". Now I almost never act like this, and we never argue because my wife isn't a fighter or arguer. But something inside me broke off. She kept saying that it's no big deal, it's just Bob, and I know who Bob is. I couldn't remember who the hell this Bob person was, but I was incensed that she'd accept a gift like this from a man. Eventually she said "Baby it's BOB, you know, the gay man from work I've talked about that recently got married to his now HUSBAND!" :rofl: Of course she totally strung this thing along because I know part of her loved that I was so territorial and enraged about the whole deal.

I've never told forbid my wife from accepting gifts from men, but she knows me. Knows my expectations and there are natural boundaries that arise when two people respect each other. When thing are running smoothly these boundaries go unspoken because the mutual respect keeps a lot in check.


----------



## SomedayDig

Oh...days and days, Brains. Keep going, but why not give me like some real science. Point out published articles from the AMA or I'd prefer something from the NCBI.


----------



## 2ntnuf

jaquen said:


> I don't have a lot of patience for these tired GNO/toxic friends/blame everyone but your crappy spouse TAM BS threads...
> 
> But this is spot on. Here is a man being honest about his own achilles heel and adjusting his behaviour accordingly. To me that's what matters. Know thyself. And be honest with yourself about who, and what, you see in the proverbial mirror.
> 
> There are plenty of people who can go out and will never cheat. And there are those who go out, say they'll never cheat, but are lying to their spouses and to themselves. There are lots of people in the latter category who wake up with strange and then just claim "I don't know what happened!".



This is very true. The only slight difficulty is in knowing who will and who will not cheat. I don't know the answer to this. Do you or does anyone who knows want to share the knowledge?


----------



## SomedayDig

MrBrains said:


> And yes MMSL is based in science as well.


Yep. And I've already disputed those "scientific" theories with the actual papers numerous times on these forum walls. I've given the science record...not pseudoscience creations.


----------



## StillSearching

SomedayDig said:


> Oh...days and days, Brains. Keep going, but why not give me like some real science. Point out published articles from the AMA or I'd prefer something from the NCBI.


Ok your right women are not attracted to men on a biological level. I'll spend the rest of my day proving biology to you. Please.....


----------



## 2ntnuf

SomedayDig said:


> Yep. And I've already disputed those "scientific" theories with the actual papers numerous times on these forum walls. I've given the science record...not pseudoscience creations.


Hey Dig, I don't want to get in the middle of your dispute. I would, however, like to read what you have provided. I think it would help me. Will you or can you share a link or something?


----------



## SomedayDig

2ntnuf said:


> Hey dig, I don't want to get in the middle of your dispute. I would, however, like to read what you have provided. I think it would help me. Will you or can you share a link or something?


Yep. Give me a few minutes to find it. I'll PM it to you.


----------



## SomedayDig

mrbrains said:


> ok your right women are not attracted to men on a biological level. I'll spend the rest of my day proving biology to you. Please.....


lmao.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Thanks man. Much appreciated.


----------



## Entropy3000

SomedayDig said:


> Give me a book, Brains. Tell me specifically what book you are referencing. Cite pages and/or the studies. I will read them.
> 
> By the way - THIS....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is NOT a reference material.


I got a lot from this book. I read it and disposed of it. Took what I liked and left the rest.

Some men really need this book or something similar.

Mr. Brains is in over his head in his thread. IMO. He needed this book badly. Many men do not. I enjoyed the book. Athol is how I found TAM.

I think therefore I am.


----------



## StillSearching

Dig you play around with Mother Nature and your wife. Show her your papers. I choose not to.


----------



## Entropy3000

MrBrains said:


> Of course.... I don't let my wife go in GNOs.


sigh.


----------



## StillSearching

Entropy3000 said:


> I got a lot from this book. I read it and disposed of it. Took what I liked and left the rest.
> 
> Some men really need this book or something similar.
> 
> Mr. Brains is in over his head in his thread. IMO. He needed this book badly. Many men do not. I enjoyed the book. Athol is how I found TAM.
> 
> I think therefore I am.


Of I'm over my head you let your wife go on GNOs....,good luck.


----------



## SomedayDig

Entropy3000 said:


> I got a lot from this book. I read it and disposed of it. Took what I liked and left the rest.
> 
> Some men really need this book or something similar.
> 
> Mr. Brains is in over his head in his thread. IMO. He needed this book badly. Many men do not. I enjoyed the book. Athol is how I found TAM.
> 
> I think therefore I am.


The book will certainly help some men, there is absolutely no disputing that fact. I've read it and I still have it. It definitely gives guys something to think about. For me...that's really all I got from it.


----------



## StillSearching

SomedayDig said:


> The book will certainly help some men, there is absolutely no disputing that fact. I've read it and I still have it. It definitely gives guys something to think about. For me...that's really all I got from it.


Lmao


----------



## Entropy3000

jaquen said:


> The boundaries are there even without the monitoring.
> 
> I'll give an example. Sometimes last year my wife and I were in bed together and somehow the topic of "50 Shades of Grey" popped up. She mentioned that she'd been recently given a copy as a gift. I asked by whom, and she said "Bob". I laughed and said "no really, who", to which she reiterated her co-worker "Bob. You know Bob, I've mentioned him before." I lost it. I said "Who the f*ck is Bob and why the f*ck is he giving my wife a copy of 50 Shades of Grey". Now I almost never act like this, and we never argue because my wife isn't a fighter or arguer. But something inside me broke off. She kept saying that it's no big deal, it's just Bob, and I know who Bob is. I couldn't remember who the hell this Bob person was, but I was incensed that she'd accept a gift like this from a man. Eventually she said "Baby it's BOB, you know, the gay man from work I've talked about that recently got married to his now HUSBAND!" :rofl: Of course she totally strung this thing along because I know part of her loved that I was so territorial and enraged about the whole deal.
> 
> I've never told forbid my wife from accepting gifts from men, but she knows me. Knows my expectations and there are natural boundaries that arise when two people respect each other. When thing are running smoothly these boundaries go unspoken because the mutual respect keeps a lot in check.


You know you and I have gone round and round at times. But I suspect IRL as it comes to our wives we do the same things.

I have never forbade my wife anything. Never had to. But I still have the boundaries I speak about.


----------



## jaquen

MrBrains said:


> Of I'm over my head you let your wife go on GNOs....,good luck.


:lol:

Entropy3000 is absolutely the last poster you need to be lobbing this at. The man has very strong boundaries in his marriage. He's got his situation under control and a wife who loves and respects him. He doesn't need your "good luck".


----------



## Entropy3000

SomedayDig said:


> Oh...days and days, Brains. Keep going, but why not give me like some real science. Point out published articles from the AMA or I'd prefer something from the NCBI.


Not to get in between here, but screw science. Observation to real life tells us much.


----------



## Entropy3000

SomedayDig said:


> Yep. And I've already disputed those "scientific" theories with the actual papers numerous times on these forum walls. I've given the science record...not pseudoscience creations.


I like pie. I do not need a research paper to tell me I do or why. LOL.

See I got the pie in.


----------



## StillSearching

Entropy3000 said:


> Not to get in between here, but screw science. Observation to real life tells us much.


Yup I've observed many wives on GNO....and it speaks volumes.


----------



## SomedayDig

Entropy3000 said:


> I like pie. I do not need a research paper to tell me I do or why. LOL.
> 
> See I got the pie in.


You just couldn't help yourself!!! :rofl:


----------



## Entropy3000

SomedayDig said:


> The book will certainly help some men, there is absolutely no disputing that fact. I've read it and I still have it. It definitely gives guys something to think about. For me...that's really all I got from it.


It is NOT a bible. It is not a holy grail. I think this is what puts people off about it. Some guys grab on it like a person would a piece of drift wood after the ship has gone down.


----------



## Entropy3000

SomedayDig said:


> You just couldn't help yourself!!! :rofl:


As I posted above, I am really a weak man. 

Thanks for the setup so I could make the kill shot.


----------



## SomedayDig

Entropy3000 said:


> It is NOT a bible. It is not a holy grail. I think this is what puts people off about it. Some guys grab on it like a person would a piece of drift wood after the ship has gone down.


:iagree:


----------



## SomedayDig

Entropy3000 said:


> As I posted above, I am really a weak man.
> 
> Thanks for the setup so I could make the kill shot.


Hey...what are friends for?!


----------



## Entropy3000

jaquen said:


> :lol:
> 
> Entropy3000 is absolutely the last poster you need to be lobbing this at. The man has very strong boundaries in his marriage. He's got his situation under control and a wife who loves and respects him. He doesn't need your "good luck".


I will take good luck any where I can get it. I was lucky to find my wife. I would like to say I chose well, but in reality I was just lucky.

When the GNO stuff starts to cause problems there are bigger issues to address.


----------



## StillSearching

Entropy3000 said:


> It is NOT a bible. It is not a holy grail. I think this is what puts people off about it. Some guys grab on it like a person would a piece of drift wood after the ship has gone down.


If your insinuating that I'm one of those your wrong. I'm saying biology plays a roll in every man/woman interaction. MMSL just describes this. As well as many other science books.


----------



## Thundarr

jaquen said:


> The boundaries are there even without the monitoring.
> 
> I'll give an example
> ....
> ....
> *Of course she totally strung this thing along because I know part of her loved that I was so territorial and enraged about the whole deal.*


That's funny. I think these little tests are normal. Territorial and concern was exactly the response she was hoping for especially since it's not in your nature to be that way.


----------



## Wiserforit

RFguy said:


> This is about a friend of mine. His wife anounced that from now on Friday night is GNO.
> 
> I know them well and his wife is not the kind who will fool around. However, the other two girls are what I would call "toxic". One is [my ex girlfriend] recently divorced, so probably on the lookout. The other one is the most "toxic" of the two. She's currently single, has cheated on all of her previous relationships and is notorious for having ONSs.
> 
> They all are in mid 30s, and in good shape, very good looking.
> 
> Their first GNO will be probably next Friday. How should the husband approach this?


It would not have taken any time to put those three words in there explaining that one was your ex girlfriend.

So we have to wonder why you didn't. 




RFguy said:


> Two days ago I left her for reasons unrelated to the GNO deal.


All I know is that people who leave out information are doing impression management.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

MrBrains said:


> Yup I've observed many wives on GNO....and it speaks volumes.


No one is disputing the fact that biology plays a role in attraction between people. The issue that I personally have with your claims about biology and how PUA's exploit it are wrong. Our ability to think and reason will trump the lower level impulses that we feel from animal attraction. Married people who are susceptible to PUA tricks have already made the conscious decision that pushing the boundaries are no big deal, and that they are already down the road to infidelity before being approached. 

Here's the thing. Can an attractive man go to a married woman and get that woman sexually attracted to her? Sure. If the woman is happily married and truly loves her man, then she'll use her higher brain functions to override the sexual impulses. If she doesn't value the marriage that much and is not "in love" with her husband, then it's quite possible for the instincts to mate to take over and allow the animal attraction to win out. 

Humans are not slaves to their lower level impulses. These impulses triumph only when we make the choice to allow ourselves to be carried away.


----------



## StillSearching

Maybe the real truth would come from asking someone who picked up many married women during their GNO. See what they would do. Ive seen 100 times.

To say if something happened during a GNO there must be a deeper issues is futile. What's done is done.


----------



## StillSearching

Plan 9 from OS said:


> No one is disputing the fact that biology plays a role in attraction between people. The issue that I personally have with your claims about biology and how PUA's exploit it are wrong. Our ability to think and reason will trump the lower level impulses that we feel from animal attraction. Married people who are susceptible to PUA tricks have already made the conscious decision that pushing the boundaries are no big deal, and that they are already down the road to infidelity before being approached.
> 
> Here's the thing. Can an attractive man go to a married woman and get that woman sexually attracted to her? Sure. If the woman is happily married and truly loves her man, then she'll use her higher brain functions to override the sexual impulses. If she doesn't value the marriage that much and is not "in love" with her husband, then it's quite possible for the instincts to mate to take over and allow the animal attraction to win out.
> 
> Humans are not slaves to their lower level impulses. These impulses triumph only when we make the choice to allow ourselves to be carried away.


Agreed... There out in a club right? What that saying? That line is thinner than most husbands want to believe. PUA all say married women are much easier.


----------



## SomedayDig

Brains...while your wife didn't do GNO, she certainly did a ton of other things over 20 years...including deceiving you during your weekend travels recently and your son's issue. I hardly think you have a leg to stand on throwing stuff out at posters who have overcome infidelity.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> That's funny. I think these little tests are normal. Territorial and concern was exactly the response she was hoping for especially since it's not in your nature to be that way.


Yes. When the conversation started off she did expect me to recall who Bob was because she talked about him several times to me. In my immediate upset I just wasn't thinking, and she totally played it out for a bit. And I told her as much!

But it's definitely in my nature to be this way. It's just not in my experience with her where I _need_ to be this way.


----------



## jaquen

Wiserforit said:


> It would not have taken any time to put those three words in there explaining that one was your ex girlfriend.
> 
> So we have to wonder why you didn't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All I know is that people who leave out information are doing impression management.


My thoughts exactly. The trickle truthing always sends up tiny alarm bells in my head.


----------



## Thundarr

Well if GNO is a sign of danger in this case then he's already seen 100 signs whether he paid attention or not. In short going out with girlfriends is not a problem. Going out with intent of acting single is though so it depends on why she wants to go out and why she's going out with whoever she's going with. 

There's very few accidents. Most people with bad intention know what they are doing and GNO is merely the symptom. And most who are happy with their relationship have better boundaries.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Tongue in cheek: I don't understand why some of you guys seem to want to "control" your wive's private sex lives like this. Your wife wants to go out and get turned on by some other guys, and later she might either hump you or masturbate.

So it is just like some porn, you know? Totally innocent.

Why do you think you can stand in the way of your wife and her private, innocent fantasy fodder? She isn't doing anything wrong, after all. She isn't going to go home with any of these guys. She might not even dance with them. She just wants to look at them and fantasize about them and then use that sexual energy later with you or with herself.

Stop being so controlling. She wants to get her jollies and you don't get to be the only thing that provides them for her, she has NEEDS outside of just YOUR body, you know. She is married but not DEAD. She still wants to LOOK, of course.


----------



## jaquen

Thundarr said:


> Well if GNO is a sign of danger in this case then he's already seen 100 signs whether he paid attention or not. In short going out with girlfriends is not a problem. Going out with intent of acting single is though so it depends on why she wants to go out and why she's going out with whoever she's going with.
> 
> There's very few accidents. Most people with bad intention know what they are doing and GNO is merely the symptom. And most who are happy with their relationship have better boundaries.


All of this.


----------



## MSP

Plan 9 from OS said:


> No one is disputing the fact that biology plays a role in attraction between people. The issue that I personally have with your claims about biology and how PUA's exploit it are wrong. Our ability to think and reason will trump the lower level impulses that we feel from animal attraction. Married people who are susceptible to PUA tricks have already made the conscious decision that pushing the boundaries are no big deal, and that they are already down the road to infidelity before being approached.
> 
> Here's the thing. Can an attractive man go to a married woman and get that woman sexually attracted to her? Sure. If the woman is happily married and truly loves her man, then she'll use her higher brain functions to override the sexual impulses. If she doesn't value the marriage that much and is not "in love" with her husband, then it's quite possible for the instincts to mate to take over and allow the animal attraction to win out.
> 
> Humans are not slaves to their lower level impulses. These impulses triumph only when we make the choice to allow ourselves to be carried away.


I think it's more like a series of choices that land people in hot water. No one wakes up one day and thinks to themselves, "I love my life, but I'm going to have an affair". There is a long slow slide of weakening and justification. 

And as for humans being able to over-ride their emotions with their reasoning . . . well, that's true, but I'd hate to bet my life on it happening.


----------



## Entropy3000

MrBrains said:


> If your insinuating that I'm one of those your wrong. I'm saying biology plays a roll in every man/woman interaction. MMSL just describes this. As well as many other science books.


I am NOT referring to you. There has been so much discussion on MMSL in the past I am just stating that some folks rely on it it way to much, however I have some compassion for their situation.

Only you can decide if this is you or not.

I think you have put up with way too much stuff, but I will leave that for your thread. I have made my comments there and you can take them with a grain of salt. I hate seeing any guy taken advantage of.


----------



## Entropy3000

MrBrains said:


> Maybe the real truth would come from asking someone who picked up many married women during their GNO. See what they would do. Ive seen 100 times.
> 
> To say if something happened during a GNO there must be a deeper issues is futile. What's done is done.


I find your savvy in this area to be at odds with your seeming naivete in your thread. Which is it?

I apologize if this is too blunt. I do not want to offend you but I am trying to reconsile these two seemingly opposite views of you. 
I am sure it is just my ignorance. But how do you explain this?


----------



## jaquen

Entropy3000 said:


> I find your savvy in this area to be at odds with your lack of savvy in your thread. Which is it?


Do as I say not as I do.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

MSP said:


> *I think it's more like a series of choices that land people in hot water. *No one wakes up one day and thinks to themselves, "I love my life, but I'm going to have an affair". There is a long slow slide of weakening and justification.
> 
> And as for humans being able to over-ride their emotions with their reasoning . . . well, that's true, but I'd hate to bet my life on it happening.


I agree with this. But in the context of a night out and a PUA targeting a married woman, there isn't much time for those series of choices to get you into trouble. A PUA can only do so much during an initial contact. For a married woman to accept the advances of a PUA while she is happily married is doubtful in most cases. There had to have been a series of prior choices made in the marriage beforehand that would have prompted her to want to hang out with a PUA while on her GNO. The PUA is not a magician. He tends to be someone who understands psychology and tries to exploit a woman's situation.


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> Tongue in cheek: I don't understand why some of you guys seem to want to "control" your wive's private sex lives like this. Your wife wants to go out and get turned on by some other guys, and later she might either hump you or masturbate.
> 
> So it is just like some porn, you know? Totally innocent.
> 
> Why do you think you can stand in the way of your wife and her private, innocent fantasy fodder? She isn't doing anything wrong, after all. She isn't going to go home with any of these guys. She might not even dance with them. She just wants to look at them and fantasize about them and then use that sexual energy later with you or with herself.
> 
> Stop being so controlling. She wants to get her jollies and you don't get to be the only thing that provides them for her, she has NEEDS outside of just YOUR body, you know. She is married but not DEAD. She still wants to LOOK, of course.


If I did not see it as unfaithful I could agree with you.

No equivalnce to porn. We are talking about drinking and being with other men. NFW is that ok with me.

As it should not be ok with my wife if I did the same.

<sarcasm>
Not sure if the post was all tongue in cheek. Perhaps so. I needed the xml tags to tell. I think it is the whole post. Nicely done BTW.

I am not her DAD. I would rather she bang 100 guys than to be though of as jealous insecure and controlling by anyone.
I do not own her.
<sarcasm/>

I do want to vomit though when a guy says he likes when his wifes parties with other men in skimpy outfits sans underthings as when she comes home he benefits. yuck. That seems like fetish stuff to me. I do want a hot wife, but I am not into hotwifing.


----------



## treyvion

MrBrains said:


> Ok your right women are not attracted to men on a biological level. I'll spend the rest of my day proving biology to you. Please.....


Even in bro-science, there are some common traits or qualities which women eat up and are attractive to them.

And then again, we all like something different, but there is just some averages which tend to stimulate that part of their brain which you should take advantage of if you can. They do it to men all the time.


----------



## StillSearching

Entropy3000 said:


> I find your savvy in this area to be at odds with your lack of savvy in your thread. Which is it?
> 
> I apologize if this is too blunt. I do not want to offend you but I am trying to reconsile these two seemingly opposite views of you.
> I am sure it is just my ignorance.


I think your trying to apply your own sense of your savy to me and my circumstances. The views are one and the same. One can have issues with his wife and still understand quite well how to stop another from making mistakes. A man who has a WS is much of an expert, from experience, then one who has not had one. There is way too much speculation on others parts in my thread to take much of any of it seriously. 

To think that my marriage issues should quite me in to not helping others is ridiculous. I have may life experiences that most have not. If I can use any of it to help someone not to make mistakes I made..great.


----------



## StillSearching

SomedayDig said:


> Brains...while your wife didn't do GNO, she certainly did a ton of other things over 20 years...including deceiving you during your weekend travels recently and your son's issue. I hardly think you have a leg to stand on throwing stuff out at posters who have overcome infidelity.


She did go on a GNO. But lied about it.


----------



## jaquen

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I agree with this. But in the context of a night out and a PUA targeting a married woman, there isn't much time for those series of choices to get you into trouble. A PUA can only do so much during an initial contact. For a married woman to accept the advances of a PUA while she is happily married is doubtful in most cases. There had to have been a series of prior choices made in the marriage beforehand that would have prompted her to want to hang out with a PUA while on her GNO. The PUA is not a magician. He tends to be someone who understands psychology and tries to exploit a woman's situation.


Good grief my wife has had so many PUA come her way. Some young guy last week just tried to throw her some game while she was walking to work. When it happens she tells me all about it and I relish hearing every detail. She use to think just flashing her rings would be enough, but these buggers are persistent! It's uber flattering to see guys trying so hard to come at your lover, and I almost feel bad for them that they don't have a shot.

When a woman tries to pick me up she's almost always very subtle. I tell women I know that trust me, a lot of men would appreciate it if you were more open in your intentions. The PUA at least as that going for them!


----------



## Faithful Wife

But the point is, Entropy...that when women have GNO's, they look forward to the sexual vibe from it. They enjoy the attention from men. We like the feeling of being sought after and pursued by men who want to have sex with us.

SOOOO....if a woman really is in love with her husband and goes to a GNO and doesn't even talk to any men, but enjoys the vibe, enjoys men checking her out, enjoys dancing on the floor with her friends, enjoys the wicked stories her single friends have....well like it or not, she has this desire to check out other men for the same reason you have the desire to check out other women.

So you get your jollies from looking at pics or videos. SHE gets HER jollies from dancing (a primal, sexual activity), and from being checked out by MEN who are horny. SO WHAT???

If she cheats or crosses any boundaries, that's on her.

It isn't the GNO, it is the woman.

It isn't the toxic friends, it is the woman.

It isn't the porn that causes problems, it is the man.

Since women need to face up to their "insecurities" (what every man says) when she may not like it if her husband views porn, a man needs to face up to his "insecurities" about this, too.

Because Newsflash! YES YOUR WIFE GETS OFF ON OTHER MEN CHECKING HER OUT.


----------



## Entropy3000

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I agree with this. But in the context of a night out and a PUA targeting a married woman, there isn't much time for those series of choices to get you into trouble. A PUA can only do so much during an initial contact. For a married woman to accept the advances of a PUA while she is happily married is doubtful in most cases. There had to have been a series of prior choices made in the marriage beforehand that would have prompted her to want to hang out with a PUA while on her GNO. The PUA is not a magician. He tends to be someone who understands psychology and tries to exploit a woman's situation.


I toally agree. In most case a woman is wanting to be PUAd. It takes the responsibility in her mind off of her. Kinda like with the male sptrippers that push the boundaries. Some women love that they are being ... taken. So they put themselves in position to be taken.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Entropy said "I toally agree. In most case a woman is wanting to be PUAd. It takes the responsibility in her mind off of her. Kinda like with the male sptrippers that push the boundaries. Some women love that they are being ... taken. So they put themselves in position to be taken."


No, they put themselves into a position of being TURNED ON and having mental fantasy fodder for later....same reason men watch porn.


----------



## treyvion

MrBrains said:


> Yup I've observed many wives on GNO....and it speaks volumes.


Not screw science.

The science is the simple and repeatable observations we can make on what really goes down. Much of this is simple and repeatable. These aren't new situations at all, it's all over the world for thousands of years.


----------



## Entropy3000

MrBrains said:


> I think your trying to apply your own sense of your savy to me and my circumstances. The views are one and the same. One can have issues with his wife and still understand quite well how to stop another from making mistakes. A man who has a WS is much of an expert, from experience, then one who has not had one. There is way too much speculation on others parts in my thread to take much of any of it seriously.
> 
> To think that my marriage issues should quite me in to not helping others is ridiculous. I have may life experiences that most have not. If I can use any of it to help someone not to make mistakes I made..great.


Ok so you are saying that you see how you screwed up and have learned by it. Cool. Makes sense. Thanks. It is important for us to learn from our failures. I have had plenty of my own.


----------



## jaquen

MrBrains said:


> A man who has a WS is much of an expert, from experience, then one who has not had one


And perhaps that's the crux of the problem. Perhaps people should spend more time listening to people who have managed to avoid wayward spouses instead of spending all their time listening to the cautionary tales.

When seeking workout advice I'm much more interested listening to the guy whose body looks cut from marble than the guy with the twinkie tits who can tell me the 1001 ways to avoid failing time and again. Sure I can learn something from him but ultimately I'm going to be drawn more to listening to what cut dude has to say.

Maybe that's just me.


----------



## StillSearching

You guys can beat on me all you like. Eventually you get some good out of the rubble.


----------



## StillSearching

jaquen said:


> And perhaps that's the crux of the problem. Perhaps people should spend more time listening to people who have managed to avoid wayward spouses instead of spending all their time listening to the cautionary tales.
> 
> When seeking workout advice I'm much more interested listening to the guy whose body looks cut from marble than the guy with the twinkie tits who can tell me the 1001 ways to avoid failing time and again. Sure I can learn something from him but ultimately I'm going to be drawn more to listening to what cut dude has to say.
> 
> Maybe that's just me.


Oh no ..., you should not block. (Avoid WS) according to most here. I did block.


----------



## treyvion

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I agree with this. But in the context of a night out and a PUA targeting a married woman, there isn't much time for those series of choices to get you into trouble. A PUA can only do so much during an initial contact. For a married woman to accept the advances of a PUA while she is happily married is doubtful in most cases. There had to have been a series of prior choices made in the marriage beforehand that would have prompted her to want to hang out with a PUA while on her GNO. The PUA is not a magician. He tends to be someone who understands psychology and tries to exploit a woman's situation.


Now that you guys got me thinking about it, a married woman on a GNO would be an easy target, especially if most of the rest of her crew is singles. If it's a bunch of stabled marrieds, then a harder target, I'd pass up if that were my game.


----------



## jaquen

MrBrains said:


> Oh no ..., you should not block. (Avoid WS) according to most here. I did block.


You blocked what? I'm confused.


----------



## committed4ever

treyvion said:


> Even in bro-science, there are some common traits or qualities which women eat up and are attractive to them.
> 
> And then again, we all like something different, but there is just some averages which tend to stimulate that part of their brain which you should take advantage of if you can. _*They do it to men all the time.*_


Examples?


----------



## Entropy3000

jaquen said:


> Good grief my wife has had so many PUA come her way. Some young guy last week just tried to throw her some game while she was walking to work. When it happens she tells me all about it and I relish hearing every detail. She use to think just flashing her rings would be enough, but these buggers are persistent! It's uber flattering to see guys trying so hard to come at your lover, and I almost feel bad for them that they don't have a shot.
> 
> When a woman tries to pick me up she's almost always very subtle. I tell women I know that trust me, a lot of men would appreciate it if you were more open in your intentions. The PUA at least as that going for them!


Women are more subtle. Like offering you a room key with a look.


----------



## treyvion

committed4ever said:


> Examples?


Sure. Why do you wear makeup?


----------



## committed4ever

treyvion said:


> Sure. Why do you wear makeup?


Cuz I'm too ugly without it


----------



## Faithful Wife

It is no secret (among women) that we want to be pursued by horny men (sometimes, when the timing is right and the men are hot). We don't necessarily want to sleep with them, we just want them to want us. We want that energy coming toward us. It turns us on. Some of you guys can't seem to see that same correlation to your own "innocent" desires. But it is the same desire. You want to look at women with lust, we want to be looked at with lust.

There is no mystery (again, among women) that this is why we go out to dance clubs...it doesn't have to turn into sex, in fact, it rarely does even when we are single. But it is a sexual experience for us (all that sexy fun adventure!) and it is part of our private sex lives.

Why do men feel their desire to be turned on physically by other women, doesn't apply to us, too? The DESIRE to be turned on by it is the same.


----------



## jaquen

Faithful Wife said:


> It is no secret (among women) that we want to be pursued by horny men (sometimes, when the timing is right and the men are hot). We don't necessarily want to sleep with them, we just want them to want us. We want that energy coming toward us.


Yeah that's a human desire. I'm not naive enough to believe that my wife isn't very flattered by men trying to pick her up, no matter how much she has to turn them down. When a hot waitress flirts with me in front of even my wife she's not getting anywhere with me, but it's definitely flattering.

This is no big secret. I feel sorry for men who think it is.


----------



## StillSearching

jaquen said:


> Yeah that's a human desire. I'm not naive enough to believe that my wife isn't very flattered by men trying to pick her up, no matter how much she has to turn them down. When a hot waitress flirts with me in front of even my wife she's not getting anywhere with me, but it's definitely flattering.
> 
> This is no big secret. I feel sorry for men who think it is.


Yup. But would you want her doing it while your not around?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Right, no big secret and also it is an innocent desire.

So why not have GNO's so she can go get all horned up from it?

If she cheats, it is the woman, not GNO. And her getting all horned up should be no problem, right?


----------



## StillSearching

Faithful Wife said:


> Right, no big secret and also it is an innocent desire.
> 
> So why not have GNO's so she can go get all horned up from it?
> 
> If she cheats, it is the woman, not GNO. And her getting all horned up should be no problem, right?


I'm not willing to take that risk. I'm sure we all know why.


----------



## Faithful Wife

All she wants is to be turned on, the same way a man wants to be turned on by porn. Why is it ok for you (any guy) to openly state you want to get turned on by another woman, but not ok for her (any wife) to openly state the same thing? You (guy who doesn't want wife to do GNO) must just be insecure.


----------



## jaquen

MrBrains said:


> Yup. But would you want her doing it while your not around?


My wife gets hit on constantly when I'm not around. I can't control the fact that other men find my wife attractive.

My wife isn't a clubber. I can count on one hand how many times she's been to a club. None of them were with me. However my wife does enjoying putting on a hot dress, looking nice, and going out from time to time. She does so with one of her female friends. I've got less than zero problem with her going out, looking good. And if some guys try and pick her up, good! She'll tell me all about it when she gets home and I'll be flattered that I have a hot wife. Win-win.


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> But the point is, Entropy...that when women have GNO's, they look forward to the sexual vibe from it. They enjoy the attention from men. We like the feeling of being sought after and pursued by men who want to have sex with us.
> 
> SOOOO....if a woman really is in love with her husband and goes to a GNO and doesn't even talk to any men, but enjoys the vibe, enjoys men checking her out, enjoys dancing on the floor with her friends, enjoys the wicked stories her single friends have....well like it or not, she has this desire to check out other men for the same reason you have the desire to check out other women.
> 
> So you get your jollies from looking at pics or videos. SHE gets HER jollies from dancing (a primal, sexual activity), and from being checked out by MEN who are horny. SO WHAT???
> 
> If she cheats or crosses any boundaries, that's on her.
> 
> It isn't the GNO, it is the woman.
> 
> It isn't the toxic friends, it is the woman.
> 
> It isn't the porn that causes problems, it is the man.
> 
> Since women need to face up to their "insecurities" (what every man says) when she may not like it if her husband views porn, a man needs to face up to his "insecurities" about this, too.
> 
> Because Newsflash! YES YOUR WIFE GETS OFF ON OTHER MEN CHECKING HER OUT.


No, I get my jollies the same way these women do. With real live people. 

I see no equivalence of porn and interacting with real people in situations where people are hit on and or groped.

So if my wife gets to do those things so do I. I could care less about porn. I find women exciting. I like when women show me attention. I like it when they get close to me. I would love to be able to dance and party with women. But I am married. LOL. Oh and strip clubs do not do it for me either. I prefer sitting down having a drink and actually talking to the woman / women. If I did more of this I would get into big trouble.

It is the seduction. It is fun. And totally dangerous.

So I agree it is the woman. If she chooses non friendly GNOs it is on her and she is hostory. Pity.

See my boundary is NOT PIV sex.


----------



## committed4ever

Faithful Wife said:


> It is no secret (among women) that we want to be pursued by horny men (sometimes, when the timing is right and the men are hot). We don't necessarily want to sleep with them, we just want them to want us. We want that energy coming toward us. It turns us on. Some of you guys can't seem to see that same correlation to your own "innocent" desires. But it is the same desire. You want to look at women with lust, we want to be looked at with lust.
> 
> There is no mystery (again, among women) that this is why we go out to dance clubs...it doesn't have to turn into sex, in fact, it rarely does even when we are single. But it is a sexual experience for us (all that sexy fun adventure!) and it is part of our private sex lives.
> 
> Why do men feel their desire to be turned on physically by other women, doesn't apply to us, too? The DESIRE to be turned on by it is the same.


I don't think it's necessary a straight up turn on. To be truthful before I was banned from GNO (yes jaquen banned - LOL) I did like the energy. But I was content to observe and not participate. It really disgust me to get hit on no matter the setting especially when they don't care that you married.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Faithful Wife said:


> It is no secret (among women) that we want to be pursued by horny men (sometimes, when the timing is right and the men are hot). We don't necessarily want to sleep with them, we just want them to want us. We want that energy coming toward us. It turns us on. Some of you guys can't seem to see that same correlation to your own "innocent" desires. But it is the same desire. You want to look at women with lust, we want to be looked at with lust.
> 
> There is no mystery (again, among women) that this is why we go out to dance clubs...it doesn't have to turn into sex, in fact, it rarely does even when we are single. *But it is a sexual experience for us* (all that sexy fun adventure!) and it is part of our private sex lives.
> 
> Why do men feel their desire to be turned on physically by other women, doesn't apply to us, too? The DESIRE to be turned on by it is the same.


If I'm understanding you correctly it's your opinion that it's ok for married women to have sexual experiences with other men. That's what the above says, do you want to clarify it?


----------



## jaquen

Faithful Wife said:


> Right, no big secret and also it is an innocent desire.
> 
> *So why not have GNO's so she can go get all horned up from it?
> *
> If she cheats, it is the woman, not GNO. And her getting all horned up should be no problem, right?


Because my wife doesn't need to use other men to get "horned up". If she was going to frequent GNO for the express purpose of getting "horned up" I'd wonder what's happening in my marriage that she _needs_ that attention to activate her libido.

It's one thing for her to go out on a night with her friends and be flattered because some guys try and pick her up. It's another matter entirely for her to start going out to clubs or what have you because she needs that kind of attention to get horny.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Nucking Futs...watching porn is a sexual experience, too. So yes in that sense, going out and getting turned on by other people is a sexual experience. Women go home all buzzed and turned on by it, and sometimes have sex with themselves or their husbands. Yep, it is a PERSONAL sexual experience. You don't have to touch anyone else or be touched for a sexual experience to occur. Same with porn.


----------



## RFguy

Faithful Wife said:


> All she wants is to be turned on, the same way a man wants to be turned on by porn. Why is it ok for you (any guy) to openly state you want to get turned on by another woman, but not ok for her (any wife) to openly state the same thing? You (guy who doesn't want wife to do GNO) must just be insecure.


Porn takes place on a TV or computer screen. The porn actress cannot materialize from the screen to your living room and have sex with your husband. 

This is not the case with a GNO at a dance club where there's physical contact.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Jaquen: "Because my wife doesn't need to use other men to get "horned up". If she was going to frequent GNO for the express purpose of getting "horned up" I'd wonder what's happening in my marriage that she needs that attention to activate her libido."

But you need to use other women (porn) to get horned up?

Or you just want to?

Either way, women WANT to as well.


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> Entropy said "I toally agree. In most case a woman is wanting to be PUAd. It takes the responsibility in her mind off of her. Kinda like with the male sptrippers that push the boundaries. Some women love that they are being ... taken. So they put themselves in position to be taken."
> 
> 
> No, they put themselves into a position of being TURNED ON and having mental fantasy fodder for later....same reason men watch porn.


Ok so you want to talk about porn. Not the same thing at all.


----------



## Faithful Wife

RFguy: "This is not the case with a GNO at a dance club where there's physical contact."

Not every woman will have physical contact, just like not every man will become a porn addict. Don't blame the GNO, blame the women who cross boundaries. Some of us NEVER cross boundaries yet still get totally turned on.


----------



## Entropy3000

MrBrains said:


> Oh no ..., you should not block. (Avoid WS) according to most here. I did block.


You should have not blocked. You should have come home early.

Your situation was not a GNO.


----------



## Faithful Wife

"Ok so you want to talk about porn. Not the same thing at all."

The desire to deliberately get turned on by something other than your spouse IS THE SAME.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Faithful Wife said:


> Entropy said "I toally agree. In most case a woman is wanting to be PUAd. It takes the responsibility in her mind off of her. Kinda like with the male sptrippers that push the boundaries. Some women love that they are being ... taken. So they put themselves in position to be taken."
> 
> 
> No, they put themselves into a position of being TURNED ON and having mental fantasy fodder for later....same reason men watch porn.


The big difference is that men can't reach out and bring whoever through the computer screen and have sex with them. 

Now, I'm not a guy who goes to bars. I have on occasion for work things but those are happy hour situations that wrap up pretty quickly. However, during my separation one of my married friends who goes to bars a lot with his wife would bring me along so I didn't have to sit home by myself. I am a people watcher and I have to tell you I was SHOCKED at how often I saw GNO degenerate into something there is no way I would allow my wife to participate in.

Specific example: We saddled up to the bar and I was at the end ... the people I was with were all to the left of me. To my right were two women. I was talking with my friends but my other ear was catching what was going on to my right. One of them was married and the other single. When I got there they were just talking. After more drinks the single woman started flirting with random guys while the married one kept to herself. After awhile the single woman takes off for a while and the married one is sitting there by herself talking to the bartender. So far the married woman doesn't seem to be "participating" in the bar scene. Back comes the single woman with a man and they are quite obviously interested in each other. The married woman seems a little uncomfortable. Shortly afterward his "friend" joins them and starts chatting up the married woman. A few drinks and a whole lot of flirting later, the single woman then has a brilliant idea ... let's go back to HIS place. She buys a case of beer from the bar and they all head off. Can only guess what happened after that.

Just based on the conversation I heard and how things proceeded from there, this married woman likely wouldn't have done anything wrong if she wasn't influenced by her friend ... or if she didn't go to the bar in the first place. She wasn't actively pursuing people, she wasn't flirting with guys, she wasn't out on the dance floor. For most of the night she was just talking ... and then the situation changed. Now, that is on her, no doubt ... but she put herself in that situation in the first place and allowed it to go too far. Hard to do that with porn.


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> Right, no big secret and also it is an innocent desire.
> 
> So why not have GNO's so she can go get all horned up from it?
> 
> If she cheats, it is the woman, not GNO. And her getting all horned up should be no problem, right?


I see a guy who is ok with that as on the border of or well into hotwifing.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Faithful Wife said:


> Jaquen: "Because my wife doesn't need to use other men to get "horned up". If she was going to frequent GNO for the express purpose of getting "horned up" I'd wonder what's happening in my marriage that she needs that attention to activate her libido."
> 
> But you need to use other women (porn) to get horned up?
> 
> Or you just want to?
> 
> Either way, women WANT to as well.


FW, I like a lot of your posts. But I disagree with you on this one. In my marriage it's not OK for my wife to go out to nightclubs on GNO's. The reason most women claim to want to go to a nightclub is for the dancing. I'm cool with that, except if my wife wants to go out dancing I'll be right there too. Unless it's her dad, brother or cousin, no other man is ever dancing with my wife. As her husband, there are certain rights that I reserve for myself.


----------



## treyvion

committed4ever said:


> Cuz I'm too ugly without it


Comon. Because it brings out and accents certain features and draws people into those features. It's worn because it raises attractiveness, you probably like how it looks too.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

jaquen said:


> than the guy with the *twinkie tits *


:rofl::rofl: Please tell me I'm not the only one laughing about this.
My belly hurts now LOL 

New insult added to arsenal.


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> "Ok so you want to talk about porn. Not the same thing at all."
> 
> The desire to deliberately get turned on by something other than your spouse IS THE SAME.


Ummmm. No. Not even remotely.

That is like saying if I masturbate to get off it is the same as putting my guy into her hooha. yes I said hooha. 

I did not say little guy either.

Or perhpas it is ok to have sex as long as there is a condom. Come on, there is no equivalence of porn to this.

There is plenty of female porn in the form of erotica to go around.


----------



## Wiserforit

Faithful Wife said:


> Tongue in cheek:



That expression means it is humor. Not serious. Except all indications are the opposite - that you are quite serious in the parallel between men looking at porn and women going out to drink booze and be hit on by men. 

The parallel for Girls Night Out is the equivalent Mens Night Out. Duh. The parallel for men looking at porn is... women looking at porn. Or romance novels. 


If you want to be this disengenuous then why not just say having an affair is the parallel with porn. Or hey, how about being a sexual sadist serial killer. After all, it's the same thing. Get all horned up after sticking an ice pick in a man's ear and cooking his brains on the BBQ grill. 

No difference at all. Same thing as porn.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Plan 9....I'm just trying to point out that men are terrified at the thought of women cheating on them via GNO's, yet the REAL thing women are wanting to do is simply get turned on by it, not cheat.

The rush for a woman of being in a sexually charged atmosphere and being scoped out by horny, hot men, is a turn on for her.

So if she is innocent and doesn't touch anyone, just looks....how is this different from a man "just looking"?

Why does he want to look?

Because other women will always turn him on.

Guess what?

Other men will always turn your wife on too AND she enjoys the rush from it, but many men just can't be ok with this. 

Again, I am just pointing this out. Men want to feel lust for other women, in fact, they claim they can't stop it even if they tried.

The same is true for women, even though some women will deny this.


----------



## Entropy3000

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> The big difference is that men can't reach out and bring whoever through the computer screen and have sex with them.
> 
> Now, I'm not a guy who goes to bars. I have on occasion for work things but those are happy hour situations that wrap up pretty quickly. However, during my separation one of my married friends who goes to bars a lot with his wife would bring me along so I didn't have to sit home by myself. I am a people watcher and I have to tell you I was SHOCKED at how often I saw GNO degenerate into something there is no way I would allow my wife to participate in.
> 
> Specific example: We saddled up to the bar and I was at the end ... the people I was with were all to the left of me. To my right were two women. I was talking with my friends but my other ear was catching what was going on to my right. One of them was married and the other single. When I got there they were just talking. After more drinks the single woman started flirting with random guys while the married one kept to herself. After awhile the single woman takes off for a while and the married one is sitting there by herself talking to the bartender. So far the married woman doesn't seem to be "participating" in the bar scene. Back comes the single woman with a man and they are quite obviously interested in each other. The married woman seems a little uncomfortable. Shortly afterward his "friend" joins them and starts chatting up the married woman. A few drinks and a whole lot of flirting later, the single woman then has a brilliant idea ... let's go back to HIS place. She buys a case of beer from the bar and they all head off. Can only guess what happened after that.
> 
> Just based on the conversation I heard and how things proceeded from there, this married woman likely wouldn't have done anything wrong if she wasn't influenced by her friend ... or if she didn't go to the bar in the first place. She wasn't actively pursuing people, she wasn't flirting with guys, she wasn't out on the dance floor. For most of the night she was just talking ... and then the situation changed. Now, that is on her, no doubt ... but she put herself in that situation in the first place and allowed it to go too far. Hard to do that with porn.


All I can say is ... yup. This does happen. I am not saying it is high percentage. But it does happen more than I thought it would.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Wiserforit....the point is, women will always be turned on by other men, just as men will always be turned on by other women.

For a man to go out of his way to deliberately get turned on by another woman (via porn or any other route) is the same as a woman going out of her way to get turned on by ANYTHING else, so yes porn, erotica, or going OUT into public.

One more time here.....some women will not talk to other men, only look.

How is it different? Look, watch, don't touch, get turned on.


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> Right, no big secret and also it is an innocent desire.
> 
> So why not have GNO's so she can go get all horned up from it?
> 
> If she cheats, it is the woman, not GNO. And her getting all horned up should be no problem, right?


What's good for the gander is good for the goose. Then we have denegrated again back to GNO/GuyNO's that denegrate into affairs. With many events which were on the border or over the border leading up to it. Quite often hiding things from the other spouse or lying, or sneaking. 

We have established on TAM if you have to do any of these things, it's a problem.


----------



## Caribbean Man

jaquen said:


> I don't have a lot of patience for these tired GNO/toxic friends/blame everyone but your crappy spouse TAM BS threads...
> 
> But this is spot on. Here is a man being honest about his own achilles heel and adjusting his behaviour accordingly. To me that's what matters. Know thyself. And be honest with yourself about who, and what, you see in the proverbial mirror.
> 
> There are plenty of people who can go out and will never cheat. And there are those who go out, say they'll never cheat, but are lying to their spouses and to themselves. There are lots of people in the latter category who wake up with strange and then just claim "I don't know what happened!".


:iagree:

Yes. Yes. and YES!

Some people are generally dishonest , even with themselves.
If people were honest with themselves, then most of these issues wouldn't even arise.

Some women can handle the attention.
Some women can't.

Some men can handle the temptation.
Some men , like myself simply can't.

For me, the feeling of a woman's body melting in my arms as we dance is a very powerful aphrodisiac.

" To thine own self be true."


----------



## Faithful Wife

treyvion: "Quite often hiding things from the other spouse or lying, or sneaking."

OK what if she does it right out in the open?

"Hey honey...I'm going out tonight because being in a sexually charged atmosphere really turns me on...but I will just look and not touch, you can trust me on that...I'll be back later, all horny and we can have sex!"


----------



## EnjoliWoman

GNO should be treated by trusting your wife and developing a strong marriage instead of one you feel need to stand guard of.

Even in my unhappy marriage my GNOs were perfectly tame. I danced with a guy ONE time sort of a shagging dance for the US folk) and felt bad about that and never did again.

If there were women only bars, I'd do that because it sure isn't about the men. The point is to get out, laugh a LOT, have someone else serve you (vs. someone hosting), have an excuse to put on something besides the same old jeans (because women like to dress up and feel pretty - NOT for men, for themselves) and dance, usually in a group with their friends and not with others.

If you have to worry about your wife, you need to worry about your marriage instead.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Faithful Wife said:


> AND she enjoys the rush from it, but many men just can't be ok with this.


I have a self imposed NO GNO at bars and clubs bc I like the rush a little too much.

Add alcohol to that mix and I'm afraid of acting in a way that would displease me if SO behaved the same.Not afraid I'll cheat but I am afraid I will let my boundaries become too relaxed.So I choose to stay away from the situation.


----------



## Wiserforit

Faithful Wife said:


> Nucking Futs...watching porn is a sexual experience, too.


So is having sex with your wife. 

Therefore porn is the same thing as sex with your wife by your own logic. 



If you are going to use a stupid argument, then prepare for it to be turned against you.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Faithful Wife said:


> Plan 9....I'm just trying to point out that men are terrified at the thought of women cheating on them via GNO's, yet the REAL thing women are wanting to do is simply get turned on by it, not cheat.
> 
> The rush for a woman of being in a sexually charged atmosphere and being scoped out by horny, hot men, is a turn on for her.
> 
> So if she is innocent and doesn't touch anyone, just looks....how is this different from a man "just looking"?
> 
> Why does he want to look?
> 
> Because other women will always turn him on.
> 
> Guess what?
> 
> Other men will always turn your wife on too AND she enjoys the rush from it, but many men just can't be ok with this.
> 
> Again, I am just pointing this out. Men want to feel lust for other women, in fact, they claim they can't stop it even if they tried.
> 
> The same is true for women, even though some women will deny this.


I guess I'm not terrified about my wife cheating on a GNO. I trust my wife and if she was out at a nightclub with friends until 3 am, I would believe that she wouldn't be cheating on me. But just because I trust her, it doesn't mean that I am cool with some of the choices available for GNO's. I can understand the reasoning behind wanting to know that OTHER people still find you attractive. But if my wife really wants to be turned on, she can simply gawk at my gorgeous nude body reclining in our bed while I give her my best "bedroom eyes"... :rofl:

Seriously though, I know people will still hit on my wife. I'm OK with that because she has good boundaries. Just don't put yourself into situations where the temptations to cheat (and the pressures to do so) are significantly higher. There is zero gained by adding unnecessary risk to your marriage.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Holy mackerel. 

I may as well throw my two cents in here. 

If a marriage is in good shape, it's highly unlikely to result in infidelity due to a GNO. 

If you think you are affair-proofing your marriage by 'forbidding' GNO's, you're very naive.


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> *Plan 9....I'm just trying to point out that men are terrified at the thought of women cheating on them via GNO's, yet the REAL thing women are wanting to do is simply get turned on by it, not cheat.
> *
> The rush for a woman of being in a sexually charged atmosphere and being scoped out by horny, hot men, is a turn on for her.
> 
> So if she is innocent and doesn't touch anyone, just looks....how is this different from a man "just looking"?
> 
> Why does he want to look?
> 
> Because other women will always turn him on.
> 
> Guess what?
> 
> Other men will always turn your wife on too AND she enjoys the rush from it, but many men just can't be ok with this.
> 
> Again, I am just pointing this out. Men want to feel lust for other women, in fact, they claim they can't stop it even if they tried.
> 
> The same is true for women, even though some women will deny this.


I am not worried about my wife cheating. I would worry about my wife doing this to get turned on by other men. I see this as sexual activity. I am ok with this to a small degree, but not what you are inferring. That is single behavior to me. 

This is playing just the tip.

It is Instigation, Isolation and Escalation. Yes it is fun. That is why we have filled the planet with clones of ourselves.

I wish I could play that game safely because it would be so much fun. But at some point I am disrespecting my wife and then I am sliding boundaries.

If I am getting aroused I am thnking with my guy. Getting horny. If she is getting aroused she is thinking with her naughty bits. Man in the boat ... getting wet and tingling clitoris. Whatever. 

Same thing. It is playing with fire. Most of us guys would feel disrespected. Our wives are letting other men think they will spread their legs if they try harder. No that is disrespectful.


----------



## Davelli0331

TCSRedhead said:


> Holy mackerel.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Plan 9 said: "But if my wife really wants to be turned on, she can simply gawk at my gorgeous nude body reclining in our bed while I give her my best "bedroom eyes"..."


But you (not sure if you really do, but many men) want to be able to lustfully look at other women's nude bodies via porn and other means. Why can't your wife (again, not specifically meaning your wife, just making the argument) get her jollies the way SHE wants to, if she is not a cheater and won't touch or be touched?


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Entropy3000 said:


> All I can say is ... yup. This does happen. I am not saying it is high percentage. But it does happen more than I thought it would.


The thing that got me was that these two guys were nothing ... total losers ... but those women sure liked the attention.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Entropy: "If I am getting aroused I am thnking with my guy. Getting horny. If she is getting aroused she is thinking with her naughty bits. Man in the boat ... getting wet and tingling clitoris. Whatever"

Um, right. Duh. This is the whole point of looking at porn, right?

Random anonymous women in porn, versus random anonymous men hitting on us in clubs. Both are a turn on. So? Getting turned on is the point of watching porn....getting turned on is sometimes the point for women's GNO's (even though many will not admit it).


----------



## TCSRedhead

I think there's a big difference in someone who will indulge in a GNO to go have some drinks with friends and someone who will grind on strange men in a club.

In the reverse situation, I have no objection to my H going to a strip club with his friends every once in a while. I prefer to go with him but I don't think that my absence is going to result in spontaneous f'ing in a back room.


----------



## Hope1964

TCSRedhead said:


> spontaneous f'ing


:lol:


----------



## StillSearching

It was just an analogy.


----------



## tacoma

Faithful Wife said:


> So it is just like some porn, you know? Totally innocent.


Take it to one of the 900 porn threads.

This will be the 14th thread having nothing to do with porn that you twisted into one of those 900 porn threads.

Off topic and really reaching.


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> treyvion: "Quite often hiding things from the other spouse or lying, or sneaking."
> 
> OK what if she does it right out in the open?
> 
> "Hey honey...I'm going out tonight because being in a sexually charged atmosphere really turns me on...but I will just look and not touch, you can trust me on that...I'll be back later, all horny and we can have sex!"


Have fun babe. I will have the papers drawn up tomorrow. Love Yooouuuuu? Oh BTW when you bend over we can see you are not wearing panties ... is this the look you were going for?

I second what Jaquen said. I do not need some other guy to get my wife wet. I get we are all sexual but this is pushing the envelope.

Now my wife and I do have a look but don't touch policy. So if my wife wants to go to a male revue .. with NO TOUCHING, then I am fine with it.

But hanging out at clubs, NFW.

So I know you are playing now. Is your hubby ok with you doing this? Do you go weekly? Do you need these others guys to get ready for your hubs?


----------



## Caribbean Man

LOL,

When I was single, I loved to her women speak so confidently about their ability to say no....
That's why they invented condoms.


----------



## Davelli0331

Ok, I'm trying my damndest to follow this trainwreck of a thread, but I am not succeeding.

FaithfulWife, are you
1) Honestly pushing your ideas about GNOs, OR
2) Slyly pushing an anti-porn agenda by trying to draw parallels between porn use and the GNOs as you're trying to frame them, OR
3) Trolling the sh!t out of us?


----------



## Entropy3000

TCSRedhead said:


> Holy mackerel.
> 
> I may as well throw my two cents in here.
> 
> If a marriage is in good shape, it's highly unlikely to result in infidelity due to a GNO.
> 
> If you think you are affair-proofing your marriage by 'forbidding' GNO's, you're very naive.


I think this form of GNO is a symptom of a troubled or soon to be troubled marriage.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Faithful Wife said:


> Entropy: "If I am getting aroused I am thnking with my guy. Getting horny. If she is getting aroused she is thinking with her naughty bits. Man in the boat ... getting wet and tingling clitoris. Whatever"
> 
> Um, right. Duh. This is the whole point of looking at porn, right?
> 
> Random anonymous women in porn, versus random anonymous men hitting on us in clubs. Both are a turn on. So? Getting turned on is the point of watching porn....getting turned on is sometimes the point for women's GNO's (even though many will not admit it).


I don't agree with your equating dancing in a club with strange guys to get turned on with men looking at porn to get turned on. I think a closer approximation would be strip clubs where there are actual live women.

So my question is, if it's ok for you to go dancing in a club is it ok for your husband to go to strip clubs? If it's ok for you to have physical contact with the man you're dancing with is it ok for your husband to get a lap dance?


----------



## Faithful Wife

The bottom line is that BOTH men and women will continue to get turned on by other people.

So why do men get so freaked out when women do this? I know you pretend it is all about the cheating factor, but really you just don't want her being turned on by other men EVEN IF she is just looking, not touching.


----------



## Entropy3000

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> The thing that got me was that these two guys were nothing ... total losers ... but those women sure liked the attention.


Attention is crack.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Faithful Wife said:


> Plan 9 said: "But if my wife really wants to be turned on, she can simply gawk at my gorgeous nude body reclining in our bed while I give her my best "bedroom eyes"..."
> 
> 
> But you (not sure if you really do, but many men) want to be able to lustfully look at other women's nude bodies via porn and other means. Why can't your wife (again, not specifically meaning your wife, just making the argument) get her jollies the way SHE wants to, if she is not a cheater and won't touch or be touched?


But there is a difference between porn and nightclubs. I think a much fairer equivalence is girls going to nightclubs and guys going to strip clubs. Women get to have that rush of getting hit on by guys and getting drinks from them to get all horned up - no touching of course. Guys can then go to the strip joint to watch a live woman take off her clothes - touch free. To get the guy even hornier, he can get the private lap dances too. All good provided that he doesn't touch the stripper nor does the stripper touch him. 

A much more realistic comparison than porn.


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> Entropy: "If I am getting aroused I am thnking with my guy. Getting horny. If she is getting aroused she is thinking with her naughty bits. Man in the boat ... getting wet and tingling clitoris. Whatever"
> 
> Um, right. Duh. This is the whole point of looking at porn, right?
> 
> Random anonymous women in porn, versus random anonymous men hitting on us in clubs. Both are a turn on. So? Getting turned on is the point of watching porn....getting turned on is sometimes the point for women's GNO's (even though many will not admit it).


It also the point in getting ready to get laid.

You really want to talk about porn.

Go take some photos of your hub and go have fun.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Watching porn = getting turned on by people you can't touch or have.

Bar/Club Scene = getting turned on by people you can touch or have.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Nucking Futs: "So my question is, if it's ok for you to go dancing in a club is it ok for your husband to go to strip clubs?"


We actually have rules about all of this stuff, and I am just playing Devil's Advocate here.

But to answer your question, I am the one who isn't allowed to go to strip clubs.


----------



## scione

Faithful Wife said:


> The bottom line is that BOTH men and women will continue to get turned on by other people.
> 
> So why do men get so freaked out when women do this? I know you pretend it is all about the cheating factor, but really you just don't want her being turned on by other men EVEN IF she is just looking, not touching.


Are you ok if your husband get hard on by your best friend? He no touching, only looking.


----------



## Faithful Wife

scione...according to men, this happens whether we are ok with it or not.


----------



## SomedayDig

Faithful Wife said:


> scione...according to men, this happens whether we are ok with it or not.


I didn't consent.


----------



## Entropy3000

TCSRedhead said:


> I think there's a big difference in someone who will indulge in a GNO to go have some drinks with friends and someone who will grind on strange men in a club.
> 
> In the reverse situation, I have no objection to my H going to a strip club with his friends every once in a while. I prefer to go with him but I don't think that my absence is going to result in spontaneous f'ing in a back room.


My wife does not mind either.

But a strip club is not so dangerous.

A club is freaking dangerous. Going to strip club are not the same at all. Indeed lap dances are a step up, but in the club this can escalate quickly. It is actuall someone who you could have sex with or just get their contact information.

I suppose the only thing more dangerous than a club is going to Vegas and bringing strippers to you room with the intent to have sex. 

But I do not equate women have drinks over dinner to clubbing.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Davelli....I'm simply pointing out the double standard. Men will hold so tight to their lust for other women and will claim this can never be taken away from them.

Women feel that way too, but men are so fragile, sometimes women won't just say it out loud.


----------



## scione

Faithful Wife said:


> scione...according to men, this happens whether we are ok with it or not.


So are you ok with it? He can go to see her every Friday night.


----------



## SomedayDig

Please. Stop saying "men".

Thank you,

The Management


----------



## Entropy3000

caribbean man said:


> lol,
> 
> when i was single, i loved to her women speak so confidently about their ability to say no....
> That's why they invented condoms.


b a z i n g a


----------



## treyvion

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> Watching porn = getting turned on by people you can't touch or have.
> 
> Bar/Club Scene = getting turned on by people you can touch or have.


You may have "better" pickings in your life than porn allows for, so it's not such a downer - but if you don't have pickings or porn is much a higher level than what you can have in real life, I see where it can be a problem versus developing your options for having the real thing.

Also, don't discount the sexually active people who are in relationships where both partners appreciate each other. I'm sure this is being reduced by current societal standards.


----------



## ReformedHubby

jaquen said:


> Good grief my wife has had so many PUA come her way. Some young guy last week just tried to throw her some game while she was walking to work. When it happens she tells me all about it and I relish hearing every detail. She use to think just flashing her rings would be enough, but these buggers are persistent! It's uber flattering to see guys trying so hard to come at your lover, and I almost feel bad for them that they don't have a shot.
> 
> When a woman tries to pick me up she's almost always very subtle. I tell women I know that trust me, a lot of men would appreciate it if you were more open in your intentions. The PUA at least as that going for them!


This is what I don't understand. There seem to be quite a few men on TAM that think women are powerless over PUAs. Like some random dude can chat your wife up and the next thing you know she is giving him BJ. Does this happen? Sure it does. But not to normal people in happy marriages. 

Honestly I think there is much more danger with male friends and coworkers than PUAs and GNOs. Even in those cases a good women ain't going to stray. Glad I got one.


----------



## Entropy3000

Davelli0331 said:


> Ok, I'm trying my damndest to follow this trainwreck of a thread, but I am not succeeding.
> 
> FaithfulWife, are you
> 1) Honestly pushing your ideas about GNOs, OR
> 2) Slyly pushing an anti-porn agenda by trying to draw parallels between porn use and the GNOs as you're trying to frame them, OR
> 3) Trolling the sh!t out of us?


I vote for three.


----------



## Davelli0331

Faithful Wife said:


> Davelli....I'm simply pointing out the double standard. Men will hold so tight to their lust for other women and will claim this can never be taken away from them.
> 
> Women feel that way too, but men are so fragile, sometimes women won't just say it out loud.


So Tacoma was right, you threadjacked to prove a point about porn


----------



## committed4ever

treyvion said:


> Comon. Because it brings out and accents certain features and draws people into those features. It's worn because it raises attractiveness, you probably like how it looks too.


Yeah I was joking of course. But I don't follow how this is an example of what you said.


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> Davelli....I'm simply pointing out the double standard. Men will hold so tight to their lust for other women and will claim this can never be taken away from them.
> 
> Women feel that way too, but men are so fragile, sometimes women won't just say it out loud.


Some of us are not common and all that diversion or distorted outside lust is combined to a larger amount of lust and attention to the female who is in the center of our life. Couple this with a healthy sex life and a mutual admiration and all is great.


----------



## Faithful Wife

scione....my H and I actually have very strict rules of conduct. Because we both openly acknowledge the possibility of getting turned on by someone else or getting hit on or both. That said, if my H gets a boner because my friend is so hot, what am I supposed to do, beat him?


----------



## Faithful Wife

treyvion: "Some of us are not common and all that diversion or distorted outside lust is combined to a larger amount of lust and attention to the female who is in the center of our life. Couple this with a healthy sex life and a mutual admiration and all is great."

If you are talking about your own life, that is awesome. Congrats!

My sitch is similar.


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> The bottom line is that BOTH men and women will continue to get turned on by other people.
> 
> So why do men get so freaked out when women do this? I know you pretend it is all about the cheating factor, but really you just don't want her being turned on by other men EVEN IF she is just looking, not touching.


Becasue we view it as disrespectful and unfaithful.

Not at a GNO Darlin. Not at a dance club. Not every Friday night. No. That is for singles. That is for folks looking for some strange. That is folks in denial.

So your hubby comes home says ... woman ... I am going out clubbing every Friday night with the guys. I plan to get sexually aroused playing with the women. I need this so I can have an erection to pound you. You juts do not exicte me enough.


----------



## scione

Faithful Wife said:


> scione....my H and I actually have very strict rules of conduct. Because we both openly acknowledge the possibility of getting turned on by someone else or getting hit on or both. That said, if my H gets a boner because my friend is so hot, what am I supposed to do, beat him?


Other people have strict rules of conduct, too: No clubin


----------



## treyvion

committed4ever said:


> Yeah I was joking of course. But I don't follow how this is an example of what you said.


Women do alot of mannerisms and changes which improve their attractiveness and looks and it's done on purpose. 

Men can do it too.


----------



## Entropy3000

Plan 9 from OS said:


> But there is a difference between porn and nightclubs. I think a much fairer equivalence is girls going to nightclubs and guys going to strip clubs. Women get to have that rush of getting hit on by guys and getting drinks from them to get all horned up - no touching of course. Guys can then go to the strip joint to watch a live woman take off her clothes - touch free. To get the guy even hornier, he can get the private lap dances too. All good provided that he doesn't touch the stripper nor does the stripper touch him.
> 
> A much more realistic comparison than porn.


Strip clubs cannot even compete. The stripper does not want to bang me because she is hot for me. 

So it is not the same at all. It is theatre at best. There is no real attraction.

Now in a club even when I do not intend to get laid ... it could happen if I change my mind. I get the allure. The danger.

Hey lets take this to the bad boy direction. If my wife needs to go find a bad bad to turn her on I married the wrong woman. I am her bad boy.


----------



## Faithful Wife

scione....I get that, and we have that rule, too.

But he also doesn't get to go off and watch porn secretly, either (and neither do I, and I would if we didn't have this rule in place).

We DO go out clubbing/dancing/drinking together, and we watch porn together.

Because we both acknowledge our desires to do this, but to also remain faithful and have no secrets.


----------



## SomedayDig

Entropy3000 said:


> Strip clubs cannot even complete. The stripper does not want to bang me because she is hot for me.
> 
> So it is not the same at all. It is theatre at best. There is not real attraction.


A stripper's job is to make you feel like you're the hottest dude in the club.

It's so she can grab your cash. If guys are stupid enough to fall for it, they don't deserve to keep their cash.

Ohhhh...if I tip her another hundred, maybe she'll slip out the back door with me.

NOPE!


----------



## Faithful Wife

Entropy said: "So your hubby comes home says ... woman ... I am going out clubbing every Friday night with the guys. I plan to get sexually aroused playing with the women. I need this so I can have an erection to pound you. You juts do not exicte me enough."


And you don't see how a man telling his wife he's going to secretly watch porn without her is saying EXACTLY the same thing?


----------



## scione

To sum it up:
1) Porn: it is not real, you cannot have a relationship with it.
2) Strip Club: strippers don't want to sleep with you, they are there to make money.
3) Club/Bar: men are there to pick up women. Women are there for ... (I don't know)


----------



## SomedayDig

GNO and porn - apples compared to oranges.

Does not compute.

Realign trajectories.


----------



## Faithful Wife

scione said: "1) Porn: it is not real, you cannot have a relationship with it."



Unless you ask a woman whose husband DOES have a relationship with porn, or one that began with porn and then went to chat rooms, AFF, etc.

Either way, don't blame the porn, blame the man, right?



"3) Club/Bar: men are there to pick up women. Women are there for ... (I don't know)"

They go there to get turned on, but they just look but don't touch...oh except the ones who DO touch...but again, blame the woman not the club.


----------



## treyvion

scione said:


> To sum it up:
> 1) Porn: it is not real, you cannot have a relationship with it.
> 2) Strip Club: strippers don't want to sleep with you, they are there to make money.
> 3) Club/Bar: men are there to pick up women. Women are there for ... (I don't know)


You can **** strippers and you can **** porn stars. You can **** strippers without spending money.

The thing is why do you need to do this? Strippers are going to bring more risks than other types of women, but bar slags also would bring similar amount of risks. The risks are due to them being able to commodity you and dehumanize you literally to a human ATM who is there to be used. The "get money" mindset, allows them to take many advantages on you without guilt, and never mind the "friends" these will have swirling around them. Human vultures who are there to still, kill destroy.


----------



## Goldmember357

Faithful Wife said:


> Davelli....I'm simply pointing out the double standard. Men will hold so tight to their lust for other women and will claim this can never be taken away from them.
> 
> Women feel that way too, but men are so fragile, sometimes women won't just say it out loud.


The double standard makes sense if you look from a human evolution standpoint.


----------



## treyvion

SomedayDig said:


> A stripper's job is to make you feel like you're the hottest dude in the club.
> 
> It's so she can grab your cash. If guys are stupid enough to fall for it, they don't deserve to keep their cash.
> 
> Ohhhh...if I tip her another hundred, maybe she'll slip out the back door with me.
> 
> NOPE!


Why are you even putting strippers up on a pedestal? They are people too. A stripper definately does not get an increase in points from me, I'd prefer an attractive career woman, that gets points....


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Entropy3000 said:


> Strip clubs cannot even compete. The stripper does not want to bang me because she is hot for me.
> 
> So it is not the same at all. It is theatre at best. There is not real attraction.
> 
> Now in a club even when I do not intend to get laid ... it could happen if I change my mind. I get the allure. The danger.
> 
> Hey lets take this to the bad boy direction. If my wife needs to go find a bad bad to turn her on I married the wrong woman. I am her bad boy.


I understand your point, but for most men it's the best equivalence there is. What makes it equivalent is that instead of looking at images of naked women like FW is stating, at a the strip club the guys are actually able to see live women doing things live. I've not done the bad things at strip clubs or ever hurt my marriage by using strip clubs, but you can get more action from the strippers than just an eye show at almost every club out there. The equivalence is interacting with live people in both areas.

Why do I say it's equivalent for most men? Simply because a marginally attractive woman can get hit on fairly regularly by guys at a nightclub. For a man at a nightclub to be hit on by women, he has to have a lot more going for him. So unless you are all that and a bag of chips as a man, there really isn't a good equivalence IMHO.


----------



## TCSRedhead

Entropy3000 said:


> My wife does not mind either.
> 
> But a strip club is not so dangerous.
> 
> A club is freaking dangerous. Going to strip club are not the same at all. Indeed lap dances are a step up, but in the club this can escalate quickly. It is actuall someone who you could have sex with or just get their contact information.
> 
> I suppose the only thing more dangerous than a club is going to Vegas and bringing strippers to you room with the intent to have sex.
> 
> But I do not equate women have drinks over dinner to clubbing.


I think that we're mostly agreeing.


----------



## Dollystanford

...how did we get onto strippers and porn? Can't a chick just go out for a damn c*cktail


----------



## Faithful Wife

Goldmember: "The double standard makes sense if you look from a human evolution standpoint."

Right, because a man wants to spread his seed and a woman wants a BBD.

But men don't want to ever have to curb their desire to spread their seed, so the next best thing when in a monogamous relationship is to simply have a personal sexual experience with whatever images they enjoy. And they don't want to be "shamed" about what TYPE of images those are.

But a woman coming right out and saying "hey, YOU don't get to tell ME what I can use to turn me on, buddy" for some reason sounds rediculous to a man. 

He wants the autonomy to decide what turns him on and not have to be hassled about it. Why does this not apply to a woman's personal turn on choices?


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> treyvion: "Some of us are not common and all that diversion or distorted outside lust is combined to a larger amount of lust and attention to the female who is in the center of our life. Couple this with a healthy sex life and a mutual admiration and all is great."
> 
> If you are talking about your own life, that is awesome. Congrats!
> 
> My sitch is similar.


NO. I had a six year stretch of it, followed by 5 years of complete and absolute hell which tought me everything I need to know about being cheated on and "the fog" and all the illogical things that people do and abuse, yada, yada. Brought me to blogs like TAM.

I'm attempting to allow it in my new situation, it's the way I prefer to live. The sex and intimacy is so much more fulfilling and grows stronger like a fine wine when you take care of it like this. You can't do it, if your blasting attention left, right and center...

In this mindset, you do notice there are other attractive ladies, but you do not get the lust attraction for them, you want your wife, like really badly.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Aw treyvion...you're my new favorite poster.


----------



## committed4ever

Dollystanford said:


> ...how did we get onto strippers and porn? Can't a chick just go out for a damn c*cktail


You can, Miss Dolly ma'am.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Faithful Wife said:


> Nucking Futs: "So my question is, if it's ok for you to go dancing in a club is it ok for your husband to go to strip clubs?"
> 
> 
> We actually have rules about all of this stuff, and I am just playing Devil's Advocate here.
> 
> But to answer your question, I am the one who isn't allowed to go to strip clubs.


You're conflating dancing in clubs with strange men with your husband looking at porn. I'm saying it's not equivalent and offered something that is also not equivalent but is at least closer than your example, but you avoided the question I asked. So I'm asking again: 

If it's ok for you to go dancing in clubs with strange men with the intent of becoming sexually aroused is it also ok for your husband to go get a lap dance in a strip club with the intent of getting aroused?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Nucking Futs, our actual rules are this:

Porn only together.

Dance clubs only together.

Strip clubs off limits but we might see a nude review or something in Vegas.

OK?


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> Entropy said: "So your hubby comes home says ... woman ... I am going out clubbing every Friday night with the guys. I plan to get sexually aroused playing with the women. I need this so I can have an erection to pound you. You juts do not exicte me enough."
> 
> 
> And you don't see how a man telling his wife he's going to secretly watch porn without her is saying EXACTLY the same thing?


No I do not. But I am from earth.

Let me see. Looking at some pictures or videos. Ok fine.

Actually engaging with a real woman who I can look in her eyes and see her pupils dilating. Her smile, the turn of her head. The subtle movements of her body. I can smell her. She is looking at me. She is smiling and speaking softly to me. She is laughing with me. She is telling me things about herself. She is touching me. Heck she is running kino on me! She gets close and I am very close to her talking to her. Maybe even saying something in her ear. She hits my arm and then her hand settles on my knee and then you starts rubbing the inside of my thigh ...

Ummmm. This is me being unfaithful but is totally real. It is way more of a turn-on than porn. F^ck porn give me a real woman who interestes me and who is interested in me. 

So then we get up and dance for a while. She lays her head on my shoulder / chest and she can feel my urgency ( guy ) and I can feel her breathing ( breasts ). Intoxicating. She asks me if I can drop her home .............. she has some wine she knows I will like.


----------



## TCSRedhead

To clarify my point, me going to a club and grinding on a strange guy is the same thing as my H getting a lap dance = inappropriate physical contact.

I trust in our relationship that when he goes out to one, he will behave himself accordingly. He trusts me as well.

That said, a GNO for me and my friends normally means dinner, some drinks and conversation.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Entropy...yes, I understand, I realy do. But that getting turned on part, for many women in a club situation, is not about a particular person. It is about the atmosphere. And I keep trying to get at this: why would it bother men that their woman is getting turned on by something other than themselves IF their woman is looking only, not touching, not even conversing?


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> Aw treyvion...you're my new favorite poster.


Well you can't get as focused as you need to be, to be completely IMMERSED in it if your all over the place blasting your attention left, right and center. It increases her mind, body and soul watch it with my own eyes. Love that part of it, and she does it for me too.

Like I said, I'm not in the mindset today, but allowing my significant other to slip into it and hopefully she prefers this style.


----------



## SomedayDig

treyvion said:


> Why are you even putting strippers up on a pedestal? They are people too. A stripper definately does not get an increase in points from me, I'd prefer an attractive career woman, that gets points....


Where did I put a stripper on a pedestal?

I merely mentioned how they make cash.


----------



## SomedayDig

Besides...everyone knows a stripper uses a pole!


----------



## Davelli0331

I can totally see how all of this is helpful to OP.


----------



## scione

This thread is so AWESOME!


----------



## treyvion

SomedayDig said:


> Where did I put a stripper on a pedestal?
> 
> I merely mentioned how they make cash.


They usually don't look all that good to me, that part of their swagger thats "getting hers" is a turnoff.

It's some models in there, and people challenging themself short term - kinda like rock climbers, they get in, get out keep the confidence. I'm Ok with that.


----------



## SomedayDig

Okay...but just to clarify, there was nothing in my post putting a stripper on a pedestal.


----------



## Entropy3000

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I understand your point, but for most men it's the best equivalence there is. What makes it equivalent is that instead of looking at images of naked women like FW is stating, at a the strip club the guys are actually able to see live women doing things live. I've not done the bad things at strip clubs or ever hurt my marriage by using strip clubs, but you can get more action from the strippers than just an eye show at almost every club out there. The equivalence is interacting with live people in both areas.
> 
> Why do I say it's equivalent for most men? Simply because a marginally attractive woman can get hit on fairly regularly by guys at a nightclub. For a man at a nightclub to be hit on by women, he has to have a lot more going for him. So unless you are all that and a bag of chips as a man, there really isn't a good equivalence IMHO.


I am not all that but I think I must have the chips. The odds are in my favor.

You are saying this is the best a man can do. Sad. But it is not the same.

Also while a woman can go into a place and be taken home by a hundred guys she is likely only going to bed one or two that night.

I would only need one. Probably someone I am very attracted to and is attracted to me. She probaly is seen as a shy or geeky woman to some. Cool I like smart women. Let the other guys hit on the skanks. But indeed if I were into this I would not be trying to bed some woman anyway. I am probably looking for someone to get to know that may or may not turn into sex.


----------



## treyvion

SomedayDig said:


> Okay...but just to clarify, there was nothing in my post putting a stripper on a pedestal.


OK. TAM has reallly helped me... Over any of these boards. Going to re-read MMSL, apply it for myself with my own modificantions and make an unstoppable MAP.


----------



## Wiserforit

Faithful Wife said:


> But men don't want to ever have to curb their desire to spread their seed,


Your misandry keeps rearing it's head with these sweeping generalizations about "men", despite being repeatedly reminded.

If you don't actually have that lurking underneath the surface, then what is the reason for repeatedly insulting all men as a group this way, despite being repeatedly reminded?

At this point it has gone far beyond what it started as - being annoying for disengenuous argumentation - and into some kind of absurd charicature of misandry.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Dollystanford said:


> ...how did we get onto strippers and porn? Can't a chick just go out for a damn c*cktail


Only if the waiter is shirtless and glistening with olive oil rubbed into his pecs...


----------



## committed4ever

Davelli0331 said:


> I can totally see how all of this is helpful to OP.


Elvis has left the building. Plus he confused everybody by later admitting it was really about him but maybe not.


----------



## Faithful Wife

treyvion said: "Well you can't get as focused as you need to be, to be completely IMMERSED in it if your all over the place blasting your attention left, right and center. It increases her mind, body and soul watch it with my own eyes. Love that part of it, and she does it for me too."


Exactly why my H and I do not just rampantly go following our random desires down rabbit holes.


----------



## SomedayDig

treyvion said:


> OK. TAM has reallly helped me... Over any of these boards. Going to re-read MMSL, apply it for myself with my own modificantions and make an unstoppable MAP.


Ummm...I'm not the MMSL or the MAP guy in any way shape or f'ng form.

Not even close.


----------



## scione

SomedayDig said:


> Okay...but just to clarify, there was nothing in my post putting a stripper on a pedestal.


Why not? Stripper is a legal and a perfectly honest profession.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Hey Wiser? Feel free to put me on ignore then, ok? No need to "remind" me of anything. Like it or not, I get my opinion just as everyone else does.


----------



## Entropy3000

TCSRedhead said:


> I think that we're mostly agreeing.


I think so too. I am flying fast and loose here and only half serious.


----------



## SomedayDig

scione said:


> Why not? Stripper is a legal and a perfectly honest profession.


I know. I was one.


----------



## Entropy3000

Dollystanford said:


> ...how did we get onto strippers and porn? Can't a chick just go out for a damn c*cktail


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Is anyone going to get laid? I am feeling a vibe that tells me this is not your agenda.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Faithful Wife said:


> Nucking Futs, our actual rules are this:
> 
> Porn only together.
> 
> Dance clubs only together.
> 
> Strip clubs off limits but we might see a nude review or something in Vegas.
> 
> OK?


No, you're still avoiding the question. You made a point and I'm trying to get to the bottom of the point you were making. I understand that you were just bull ****ting when you made the point and that's not how you actually live your life with your husband, but you're still not answering the question that I asked.

Let me break it down for you: I don't care if you have boundaries in place with your husband that requires you both to be present in a strip club or dance club or when watching porn. The only thing I care about is getting down to the actual answer to the actual question I asked, based on the argument that you were making. So once again I will ask the question, but this time I'll alter it slightly to maybe make it easier for you to answer rather than avoiding.

If in your opinion it should be ok for a hypothetical married woman completely unrelated to you to go dancing in clubs with strange men with the intent of becoming sexually aroused should it also be ok for her husband to go get a lap dance in a strip club with the intent of getting aroused?

Pleas try to answer it like TCSRedhead did in a straight forward manner.


----------



## scione

SomedayDig said:


> I know. I was one.


Why did you have to say that? Now, I can't stop thinking about you.


----------



## committed4ever

treyvion said:


> OK. TAM has reallly helped me... Over any of these boards. Going to re-read MMSL, apply it for myself with my own modificantions and make an unstoppable MAP.


Aww Treyvion you're above running the CRAP... I mean the MAP.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Dollystanford said:


> ...how did we get onto strippers and porn? Can't a chick just go out for a damn c*cktail


I think the c*ck IN tail is what the concern is ...


----------



## treyvion

SomedayDig said:


> Ummm...I'm not the MMSL or the MAP guy in any way shape or f'ng form.
> 
> Not even close.


Well my ex bashed my head in and balls, so that MMSL does give a path of self-pride and male viewpoint which helps a bit.


----------



## Faithful Wife

"If in your opinion if it should be ok for a hypothetical married woman completely unrelated to you to go dancing in clubs with strange men with the intent of becoming sexually aroused should it also be ok for her husband to go get a lap dance in a strip club with the intent of getting aroused?"


For the right couple and the right marriage, this can work just fine. So YES, that can happen and it can be ok.

Does that help you?

How about if you ARE a stripper, should you let your husband come watch your show or would that lower your tips? This is a reality for some marriages, too. I know a few strippers and the rules can get blurry.


----------



## Wiserforit

Faithful Wife said:


> I am just playing Devil's Advocate here.


Big reveal there.

When a person is playing devil's advocate, and for productive purposes, they say exactly that: "I am playing devil's advocate".

When they are up to something else, they use manipulative minimization language: "I'm *just* playing devil's advocate".

That's the difference between sincere discussion and trying to needle a target.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Entropy3000 said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> Is anyone going to get laid? *I am feeling a vibe* that tells me this is not your agenda.


----------



## SomedayDig

scione said:


> Why did you have to say that? Now, I can't stop thinking about you.


LOLZ...yeah, but that was almost 20 years ago in a land far, far away.

My wife still cracks on me when looking through pictures. She can be evil, but turned on by it!


----------



## Faithful Wife

Oh Wise, Wise, Wiserforit....you've just totally slayed me here. I'm sure from here on out, I will be a better person for having you edu-macated me.


----------



## SomedayDig

treyvion said:


> Well my ex bashed my head in and balls, so that MMSL does give a path of self-pride and male viewpoint which helps a bit.


Ummm...okay. Sorry?


----------



## treyvion

Faithful Wife said:


> "If in your opinion if it should be ok for a hypothetical married woman completely unrelated to you to go dancing in clubs with strange men with the intent of becoming sexually aroused should it also be ok for her husband to go get a lap dance in a strip club with the intent of getting aroused?"
> 
> 
> For the right couple and the right marriage, this can work just fine. So YES, that can happen and it can be ok.
> 
> Does that help you?
> 
> How about if you ARE a stripper, should you let your husband come watch your show or would that lower your tips? This is a reality for some marriages, too. I know a few strippers and the rules can get blurry.


cough-cough, that is a reality.


----------



## treyvion

SomedayDig said:


> Ummm...okay. Sorry?


You don't have to be sorry. I should have never been with her. I was much more naive about people.


----------



## Dollystanford

let's get back to the toxic girlfriend (with the ONS's)
If I was her I'd want to go out with married/attached women so that the odds were in my favour as to how much peen would be swinging my way 

Just sayin


----------



## scione

Dollystanford said:


> let's get back to the toxic girlfriend (with the ONS's)
> If I was her I'd want to go out with married/attached women so that the odds were in my favour as to how much peen would be swinging my way
> 
> Just sayin


To quote a person with toxic friend, "They (married women) are not as fun."


----------



## treyvion

Dollystanford said:


> let's get back to the toxic girlfriend (with the ONS's)
> If I was her I'd want to go out with married/attached women so that the odds were in my favour as to how much peen would be swinging my way
> 
> Just sayin


That would be a smart tactic. Guy comes to the group, all are attached but you - all attention diverted to you.


----------



## SomedayDig

Dollystanford said:


> let's get back to the toxic girlfriend (with the ONS's)
> If I was her I'd want to go out with married/attached women so that the odds were in my favour as to how much peen would be swinging my way
> 
> Just sayin


Dolly, you'd be like the penis divining rod.


----------



## Dollystanford

All penis points *this-a-way*


----------



## Hope1964

What's the plural of penis? Penii? Penises?


----------



## treyvion

Hope1964 said:


> What's the plural of penis? Penii? Penises?


Peens?


----------



## SomedayDig

Hmmm...I don't know. I mean if clitorides is acceptable, then WTF?!


----------



## Nucking Futs

Faithful Wife said:


> "If in your opinion if it should be ok for a hypothetical married woman completely unrelated to you to go dancing in clubs with strange men with the intent of becoming sexually aroused should it also be ok for her husband to go get a lap dance in a strip club with the intent of getting aroused?"
> 
> 
> For the right couple and the right marriage, this can work just fine. So YES, that can happen and it can be ok.
> 
> Does that help you?
> 
> How about if you ARE a stripper, should you let your husband come watch your show or would that lower your tips? This is a reality for some marriages, too. I know a few strippers and the rules can get blurry.


How about for the average marriage? You seemed to be advocating for your position in a general sense before you admitted that it's not how you live your life, so in general, for the average marriage, should that be ok?

As for your question, it depends on the individual stripper and her relationship with her husband and the management of the club. What's your point and how does it relate to the discussion?


----------



## Nsweet

Wait! OP isn't actually married yet?:scratchhead:

And this is the same guy that made the thread *"I am going to break up with long term GF because of bad sex"*, right after freakin Valentine's Day none the less.

Oh dude, OP when are you going to grow up and leave her already? You're already have bad sex/no sex, she's using sex as a transaction only after you fulfill her long list of needs, and she's either cheating on you now or will get herself a lover in a matter of weeks. 

Dump her crazy ass already! And stop spamming TAM with your "what if" questions and looking for validation from people with nothing better to do than invent arguments to questions you haven't asked. 

No, you know what... Don't listen to me. I don't want you learning your lesson because you like having a girlfriend who cheats on you and makes you miserable. You feed off of it and need her drama because you aren't ready to have a healthy relationship.


----------



## turnera

Of course you should tell him. In fact, print out this thread and hand it to him.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Nucking Futs said: "How about for the average marriage? You seemed to be advocating for your position in a general sense before you admitted that it's not how you live your life, so in general, for the average marriage, should that be ok?"


Did you miss the several times I said I am playing Devil's Advocate?

Here is my point:

Men and women BOTH still get turned on by other people, even when they are married.

Why do men feel entitled to this, but they then don't want their woman to be turned on by others?

Then there were a million posts going back and forth that it "isn't the same", which isn't surprising, because some men do not want to give up their lust for other women but they expect their women to give up lust for other men.

Get it now?

My ACTUAL position on this is that the lust between married partners can actually increase for each other the more you try to keep outsiders out of your personal, secret sex life. The more you focus your lust toward your partner and not others, the better the sex and intimacy and lust can grow in that environment.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Faithful Wife said:


> Nucking Futs said: "How about for the average marriage? You seemed to be advocating for your position in a general sense before you admitted that it's not how you live your life, so in general, for the average marriage, should that be ok?"
> 
> 
> *Did you miss the several times I said I am playing Devil's Advocate?*
> 
> Here is my point:
> 
> Men and women BOTH still get turned on by other people, even when they are married.
> 
> Why do men feel entitled to this, but they then don't want their woman to be turned on by others?
> 
> Then there were a million posts going back and forth that it "isn't the same", which isn't surprising, because some men do not want to give up their lust for other women but they expect their women to give up lust for other men.
> 
> Get it now?
> 
> My ACTUAL position on this is that the lust between married partners can actually increase for each other the more you try to keep outsiders out of your personal, secret sex life. The more you focus your lust toward your partner and not others, the better the sex and intimacy and lust can grow in that environment.


Yeah, I did miss it. My last response was before I caught up on the other stuff and was only in response to your last response to me.

You might want to identify your devils advocacy when you start it. I viewed it as hypocrisy and I have a hard time letting it go, as I think I have demonstrated.


----------



## Faithful Wife

No problem, I realize it wasn't very clear where I was coming from.

Love your user name by the way, hysterical!


----------



## Faithful Wife

Nsweet...why do you have a gay looking shirtless dude avatar?


----------



## Nucking Futs

So this thread ended up being phony and a complete waste of time. Oh, well, I had fun arguing.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Faithful Wife said:


> No problem, I realize it wasn't very clear where I was coming from.
> 
> Love your user name by the way, hysterical!


It's descriptive. And my avatar is an actual photo of me showing off my new ak. Ignore the background, I had just lit a fart.


----------



## jaquen

Faithful Wife said:


> But you need to use other women (porn) to get horned up?


No I don't "need" porn to get horned up.



Faithful Wife said:


> Or you just want to?


Want to.



Faithful Wife said:


> Either way, women WANT to as well.


And no matter how much you try and draw out this analogy I will never agree that going out and getting horned up by interacting with real, live people who actually want to f*ck you is the same as interacting with images on a screen, or even a paid professional like a stripper.


----------



## Nsweet

Faithful Wife said:


> Nsweet...why do you have a gay looking shirtless dude avatar?


For the same reason I pierced my tongue..... Ladies love it.


----------



## SomedayDig

OP...I strongly advise you against your "present" girlfriend doing a GNO, which could result in her texting, sexting, going to a strip club, watching porn, going to a gay club, going back to a dance club and then getting on some Greyhound.

You've been warned!

Did I miss anything from the thread?


----------



## sandc

All this discussion when OP already said that it was only a GF, who has exchanged no vows with him, and he's already broken up with her for "other reasons."

Um. Okay. Please continue.


----------



## jaquen

How the hell did this devolve into yet another debate about porn?





sandc said:


> All this discussion when OP already said that it was only a GF, who has exchanged no vows with him, and he's already broken up with her for "other reasons."


I read his update. I was under the impression that one of the "toxic friends" in the original OP is his ex-girlfriend and that she's hanging out with his guy friend's wife.


----------



## Faithful Wife

jaquen: "And no matter how much you try and draw out this analogy I will never agree that going out and getting horned up by interacting with real, live people who actually want to f*ck you is the same as interacting with images on a screen, or even a paid professional like a stripper."


In my house, we consider it the same thing. Neither of us get to "sneak off" and have sexual experiences in secret. Yeah yeah...I know...YOU will never have someone else tell you what you can and can't watch, right? Yet, you have built in to that scenario the fact that you can trust yourself not to open up live sex chat cams and then move on into meeting people on AFF. So since you know you can trust yourself, you refuse to "be controlled" like that.

I'm simply pointing out that even though I can also trust my husband to not go down some rabbit hole, I'm not going to take that chance and have him watching porn in secret (not that he has even asked to, I'm just making a point). Many men feel they are doing something harmless and then the next moment, they are doing something their wife wouldn't like, oh but it is harmless....except that she doesn't KNOW about it. And on and on it can go.

If he is watching it in SECRET, why does it need to be in SECRET unless there is something to hide?

But blame the man, not the porn, right?

So let's take GNO's. Hell no is my husband going to let me go out and get all turned on by other men (or women) and he KNOWS that IS what will happen, there is no question about it.

But my desire to get turned on by random other people doesn't go away just because he says no, same way his desire to see other naked chicks doesn't go away.

The SECRECY is what I have a problem with. Either do it out in the open and share, or else I feel there could be a problem due to the secrecy.

This is easily solved. We are both transparent in our "other inspired" turn ons, because we do it together and without secrets.


----------



## T&T

Faithful Wife said:


> some men do not want to give up their lust for other women but they expect their women to give up lust for other men.


What if she gets turned on by other women?

Can't compete with that!  :rofl:


----------



## treyvion

T&T said:


> What if she gets turned on by other women?
> 
> Can't compete with that!  :rofl:


I know it sounds like a "sexy" thing...

But what if said other women would never give you the time of day "ain't that kinda party" - and they get all up in your business and cause to you be stonewalled, monkey wrenched and set back all the friggin time?

Other women can become jealous of you, persue you and end or damage your life...


----------



## Faithful Wife

I go both ways, so my H keeps me in line around both sexes.


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> Entropy...yes, I understand, I realy do. But that getting turned on part, for many women in a club situation, is not about a particular person. It is about the atmosphere. And I keep trying to get at this: why would it bother men that their woman is getting turned on by something other than themselves IF their woman is looking only, not touching, not even conversing?


I will not speak for these men you refer to. I can only say that it is not ok with me. I do not have to answer to anyone. I am not down with my wife putting herself into this situation as it would not be right for me to do so either. It is flirting with disaster. 

I find it disrespectful. Go for it if you like and your hubby likes it.


----------



## Davelli0331

This thread is so dildoes


----------



## Faithful Wife

Entropy...you are so upset by what I am saying, that you keep trying to insult me. "Go for it if you and your husband"....I've already stated several times that my husband and I don't do this behavior either. WE KNOW IT LEADS TO INFIDELTY. How many times do I have to say that? I'm not talking about my own marriage.

I am making the point that men and women both should face this FACT that women, just like men, ENJOY being turned on by outside sources.


----------



## SomedayDig

Yeah...again, please stop referencing "men". I didn't consent to the survey.


----------



## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> Entropy...you are so upset by what I am saying, that you keep trying to insult me. "Go for it if you and your husband"....I've already stated several times that my husband and I don't do this behavior either. WE KNOW IT LEADS TO INFIDELTY. How many times do I have to say that? I'm not talking about my own marriage.
> 
> I am making the point that men and women both should face this FACT that women, just like men, ENJOY being turned on by outside sources.


Duh.

But you did this by going off on some tangent about porn. Only you know why. 

We all know why women like to go on these clubbing GNOs. They like the attention and to get sexually aroused.
Brilliant!!!

And what many of us are saying is that we do not find this ok in these circumstances because they involve real live people. 

And try as you may you want this to be somehow equivalent to some other activity. Most of are not buying that aspect but agree with the original premise and have for many many pages.

Indeed I am NOT upset but have been IMing some folks and laughing about this whole thing on the side.


----------



## jaquen

Faithful Wife said:


> In my house, we consider it the same thing.


That's nice?



Faithful Wife said:


> Yeah yeah...I know...YOU will never have someone else tell you what you can and can't watch, right?


Right.



Faithful Wife said:


> I'm simply pointing out that even though I can also trust my husband to not go down some rabbit hole, I'm not going to take that chance and have him watching porn in secret (not that he has even asked to, I'm just making a point). Many men feel they are doing something harmless and then the next moment, they are doing something their wife wouldn't like, oh but it is harmless....except that she doesn't KNOW about it. And on and on it can go.
> 
> If he is watching it in SECRET, why does it need to be in SECRET unless there is something to hide?
> 
> But blame the man, not the porn, right?


And this has what to do with this thread?



Faithful Wife said:


> So let's take GNO's. Hell no is my husband going to let me go out and get all turned on by other men (or women) and he KNOWS that IS what will happen, there is no question about it.
> 
> But my desire to get turned on by random other people doesn't go away just because he says no, same way his desire to see other naked chicks doesn't go away.
> 
> The SECRECY is what I have a problem with. Either do it out in the open and share, or else I feel there could be a problem due to the secrecy.
> 
> This is easily solved. We are both transparent in our "other inspired" turn ons, because we do it together and without secrets.


And again this has what to do with this thread, considering the OP presented a situation that was about being brutally honest and open about intent.

How did you manage to hijack a thread about a brazen wife stating up front that she'd be going to weekly GNO and transform it into a lecture about men watching porn and secrecy?


----------



## Faithful Wife

jaquen asked: "How did you manage to hijack a thread about a brazen wife stating up front that she'd be going to weekly GNO and transform it into a lecture about porn and secrecy?"

Because what she is really saying is "I want to be turned on by other people" which is the same thing a man is saying when he says "I want to watch porn".


----------



## SomedayDig

Faithful Wife said:


> jaquen asked: "How did you manage to hijack a thread about a brazen wife stating up front that she'd be going to weekly GNO and transform it into a lecture about porn and secrecy?"
> 
> Because what she is really saying is "I want to be turned on by other people" which is the same thing a man is saying when he says "I want to watch porn".


Good God no it is NOT!


----------



## Faithful Wife

Gee Entropy...that's nice. No worries, I'll leave you alone now and not bother you so you can stop giggling at my expense. Sheesh.


----------



## SomedayDig

Watching porn = tossing off to a picture/video.

Bad GNO = looking to get picked up by a real person.

Where in THEEEE hell is that even close?


----------



## Faithful Wife

Someday....Yes, it is the same thing. 

Have fun making fun, I'm done. Back to your regularly scheduled programmed thinking.


----------



## sandc

jaquen said:


> How the hell did this devolve into yet another debate about porn?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I read his update. I was under the impression that one of the "toxic friends" in the original OP is his ex-girlfriend and that she's hanging out with his guy friend's wife.


You may be right. I may be crazy. But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for. Gives me an idea for a song. I had a hard time discerning who OP was really talking about.

And like you I feel complimented when another man hits on my wife. However, I'm secure in the knowledge that she gets more than enough sex from me and has no desire to find it elsewhere.


----------



## SomedayDig

Hmmm...let me see - *I* watched porn when I sat in hotel rooms around the world while flying my jet. No one was harmed in it.

My wife went to GNO's in a bad way...wound up having a 5 year long affair. 

WHERE is it the same thing?! Dispute me. Go ahead. Try.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Ok Someday....a female friend of mine loves going clubbing, never touches another man, gets hit on but always goes home to her boyfriend.

Meanwhile, her boyfriend is sitting at home watching porn.

Until later....when it becomes sex chats.

And later....when it becomes him sending pics of himself.

And later....when it became him meeting hookers.

Meanwhile, his sweet girlfriend is still having fun in clubs, keeping her pants on and no man is touching her in anyway.

Until she finds out about the porn that quickly went awry and became IRL meetings and dumped him.

There ya go.


----------



## sandc

No one, not even OP knows what the woman in question's intentions really are. Everyone is just speculating given the limited information they have and personal experience.


----------



## jaquen

Faithful Wife said:


> jaquen asked: "How did you manage to hijack a thread about a brazen wife stating up front that she'd be going to weekly GNO and transform it into a lecture about porn and secrecy?"
> 
> Because what she is really saying is "I want to be turned on by other people" which is the same thing a man is saying when he says "I want to watch porn".


----------



## SomedayDig

He's a cheater. I'm not.

So it is not the same.


----------



## Laila8

Porn and GNO are not the same thing IMO. Not even close.

I don't do GNO at clubs/bars. As a married woman, I do not think they are appropriate. I've seen what goes on during GNO at clubs, and it's not pretty...married ladies dressing ****ty and acting flirty, grinding on guys, allowing guys to buy them drinks...the list goes on and on.


----------



## SomedayDig

Faithful Wife said:


> Ok Someday....a female friend of mine loves going clubbing, never touches another man, gets hit on but always goes home to her boyfriend.
> 
> Meanwhile, her boyfriend is sitting at home watching porn.
> 
> Until later....when it becomes sex chats.
> 
> And later....when it becomes him sending pics of himself.
> 
> And later....when it became him meeting hookers.
> 
> Meanwhile, his sweet girlfriend is still having fun in clubs, keeping her pants on and no man is touching her in anyway.
> 
> Until she finds out about the porn that quickly went awry and became IRL meetings and dumped him.
> 
> There ya go.


What you FAIL to see is that it is the CHEATER, not their method.

It's NOT the porn. It's NOT the GNO.

It's the CHEATER. Period. The end.


----------



## jaquen

I'd love to know when Girls Night Out became synonymous with clubbing.


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## Nsweet

And..... Unsubscribe.

This thread is just become the epitome of ridiculous.


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## Faithful Wife

Someday said: "What you FAIL to see is that it is the CHEATER, not their method.

It's NOT the porn. It's NOT the GNO.

It's the CHEATER. Period. The end."


NO....I actually SAID that several times. It ain't the GNO, it is the cheating woman. So what's the problem with GNO's again, if your wife ain't a cheater?


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## SomedayDig

Nsweet said:


> And..... Unsubscribe.
> 
> This thread is just become the epitome of ridiculous.


Wait!! Don't go yet - we haven't brought up God or guns yet!

Nsweet...


Nsweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!!!


----------



## SomedayDig

Faithful Wife said:


> Someday said: "What you FAIL to see is that it is the CHEATER, not their method.
> 
> It's NOT the porn. It's NOT the GNO.
> 
> It's the CHEATER. Period. The end."
> 
> 
> NO....I actually SAID that several times. It ain't the GNO, it is the cheating woman. So what's the problem with GNO's again, if your wife ain't a cheater?


I have none...

Why do you have a problem with porn?


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## jaquen

Clearly we've been trolled...

And perhaps by more than one poster...

Or is it?


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## Hope1964

Some guys escalate from porn to cheating. Not all.

Some women escalate from GNO to cheating. Not all.

IMO, someone on GNO is a heck of a lot closer to cheating than a guy who is watching porn. It is way farther to get from porn on a computer screen or in a book or on TV to a hooker than it is to get from grinding some guy in a bar to going home with him. WAY farther.

What the heck does porn have to do with GNO though? :scratchhead: :scratchhead: Not that it seems to matter any more.


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## sandc

The last BNO I went on did not involve clubbing. We went to one of the guys' house. We sat in his back yard, we smoked cigars and pipes, we sampled homebrewed beers, we ordered and ate way too much pizza, we talked about theology, sports, and told embarrassing stories about ourselves and others.

No porn or clubbing was involved. It was awesome.

But we're different.


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## Faithful Wife

Someday...I don't have a problem with porn. I do think there can be a problem with secretly having sexual experiences when married. GNO's can be secret sexual experiences, and so can porn.


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## Hope1964

Faithful Wife said:


> Someday...I don't have a problem with porn. I do think there can be a problem with secretly having sexual experiences when married. GNO's can be secret sexual experiences, and so can porn.


So can having a shower.

Again, what does porn have to do with GNO? I am trying to figure out how yet another thread devolved into a porn debate. It gets tiresome.


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## Nucking Futs

SomedayDig said:


> OP...I strongly advise you against your "present" girlfriend doing a GNO, which could result in her texting, sexting, going to a strip club, watching porn, going to a gay club, going back to a dance club and then getting on some Greyhound.
> 
> You've been warned!
> 
> Did I miss anything from the thread?


Wait, back up. Is Greyhound code for something? An elderly PUA?


----------



## jaquen

Hope1964 said:


> So can having a shower.
> 
> Again, what does porn have to do with GNO? I am trying to figure out how yet another thread devolved into a porn debate. It gets tiresome.


Because Faithful Wife worked overtime to make it a men&porn thread in order to divert from the topic at hand and we took the bait, as usual.


----------



## SomedayDig

Nucking Futs said:


> Wait, back up. Is Greyhound code for something? An elderly PUA?


LOL...no a very obscure reference from the thread. I will not cite it though...it is up to you to find it!

:rofl:


----------



## Faithful Wife

My apologies everyone. Perhaps I haven't been here long enough to have been in on the 40,000 porn threads you all have been.

My point wasn't about the porn, it was about the fact that it will always be true that men and women still get turned on by others, and that (some) men usually hold their porn close for this reason but they don't want their wives to openly be turned on by others. 

I am done here, and sorry for bothering you long timers with your FAVORITE (not) subject. Just please cut me a break here for the fact that I'm trying to discuss DESIRES, not porn. But of course, I already went and used the word porn so I apparently can't have any other point.

Cheers!


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## Entropy3000

Faithful Wife said:


> Gee Entropy...that's nice. No worries, I'll leave you alone now and not bother you so you can stop giggling at my expense. Sheesh.


Dear, dear lady. I do not have an evil bone in my body. If we discover one I shall have it removed.
I am not laughing at you in particular at all. I am laughing at many of us from social that have been drawn into this thread. It is hilarious and tragic all at once.

So no. Not at your expense. Continue on. If anything I am laughing at myself.


----------



## Dollystanford

Entropy3000 said:


> Dear, dear lady. I do not have an evil bone in my body. If we discover one I shall have it removed.


I hope it's not your favourite bone


----------



## sandc

Faithful Wife said:


> My apologies everyone. Perhaps I haven't been here long enough to have been in on the 40,000 porn threads you all have been.
> 
> My point wasn't about the porn, it was about the fact that it will always be true that men and women still get turned on by others, and that (some) men usually hold their porn close for this reason but they don't want their wives to openly be turned on by others.
> 
> I am done here, and sorry for bothering you long timers with your FAVORITE (not) subject. Just please cut me a break here for the fact that I'm trying to discuss DESIRES, not porn. But of course, I already went and used the word porn so I apparently can't have any other point.
> 
> Cheers!


I think I'm a reasonable guy and I get what you're saying but the two don't equate. I get men can get turned on by porn, but the equivalent would be women getting turned on by porn. See? Porn=Porn. Women getting turned on by men at dance clubs = men getting turned on by women at dance clubs. Porn <> getting turned on by others at dance clubs. One consists of a video on your computer or TV, the other consists of warm, live, sweaty, possibly disease carrying humans.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Hope1964 said:


> So can having a shower.
> 
> Again, what does porn have to do with GNO? I am trying to figure out how yet another thread devolved into a porn debate. It gets tiresome.


She is trying to make the point that porn is a secret sexual experience just like GNO can be. That porn is no better than GNO. A man gets aroused by porn just like a woman can on a GNO (in the sexually charged bar/club scene). She is asserting that if we use porn then it would be hypocritical to object to GNO. She is playing devil's advocate because she doesn't believe it is ok for either partner in a marriage to indulge in secret sexual experiences. At least that is my take on what she is saying.

I do agree with your take in that it is different in the degree of temptation available that will result in actual cheating. The difference is that in a bar/club, you can touch and smell the person you are talking to. If they are flirting, it is because they are interested in you sexually. You probably have been drinking and therefore your inhibitions are lowered; you are likely going to do and say things that you wouldn't if you are sober. You can smell the pheromones/testosterone of the person you are talking to. They might be saying things you haven't heard in a long time and you love the attention. If you are really attracted, you might feel flush or a little dizzy when they are close and you can't help but think of them sexually. Maybe you have this overwhelming desire to kiss them. Just the smell of their hair or the heat off their body gives you an erection/makes you wet.

Yeah, I remember those days. Masturbation memories I believe one poster called them.

Now maybe you have the good sense not to give in to that. Maybe once, twice .... 20 times you don't give in to that ... but the next time ... 

That doesn't happen watching porn.


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## Nucking Futs

SomedayDig said:


> LOL...no a very obscure reference from the thread. I will not cite it though...it is up to you to find it!
> 
> :rofl:


Not going to look for it. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing out on some of the slang that the cool kids are using.


----------



## Entropy3000

jaquen said:


> I'd love to know when Girls Night Out became synonymous with clubbing.


I don't think it is. 

I consider a true GNO as a Girls Night Out.

This is why on page one I asked, what kind of GNO.


----------



## jaquen

Faithful Wife said:


> My apologies everyone. Perhaps I haven't been here long enough to have been in on the 40,000 porn threads you all have been.
> 
> My point wasn't about the porn, it was about the fact that it will always be true that men and women still get turned on by others, and that (some) men usually hold their porn close for this reason but they don't want their wives to openly be turned on by others.
> 
> I am done here, and sorry for bothering you long timers with your FAVORITE (not) subject. Just please cut me a break here for the fact that I'm trying to discuss DESIRES, not porn. But of course, I already went and used the word porn so I apparently can't have any other point.
> 
> Cheers!


----------



## Entropy3000

jaquen said:


> Clearly we've been trolled...
> 
> And perhaps by more than one poster...
> 
> Or is it?


Indeed sir. I wondered the same.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Faithful Wife said:


> Entropy...you are so upset by what I am saying, that you keep trying to insult me. "Go for it if you and your husband"....I've already stated several times that my husband and I don't do this behavior either. WE KNOW IT LEADS TO INFIDELTY. How many times do I have to say that? I'm not talking about my own marriage.
> 
> I am making the point that men and women both should face this FACT that women, just like men, ENJOY being turned on by outside sources.


I missed all the fun. I agree with everyone else porn and GNO and BNO aren't the same thing. For starters lets be honest, on any night of the week even a plain Jane can pretty much get laid buy a guy with a much higher sex rank. 

Also, I can't speak for others but back when I was no good BNO wasn't about getting turned on. It was about showing myself and my single friends that I could still pull more women than they could.


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## seagoat

Troll or not, reading this thread makes me feel really relieved to not be in a relationship, and stifles any tiny emerging desire to ever be in one again. :/ 

Or perhaps the mature and secure male subspecies is just underrepresented here at TAM. 

Like someone mentioned earlier, the responses to the question were mere assumptions, filtered by the responders' own personal experiences, and/or disposition/personality. We assume what we can imagine ourselves doing or thinking.


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## Entropy3000

Dollystanford said:


> I hope it's not your favourite bone


It is NOT evil my dear princess

It is ....

*E X C A L I B U R*










Not actual size


----------



## GTdad

The OP relates in another thread that he broke up with her.

So we're done here, right? 

Right?


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## Entropy3000

GTdad said:


> The OP relates in another thread that he broke up with her.
> 
> So we're done here, right?
> 
> Right?


20 pages ago


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## Caribbean Man

Hold your horses!
Not just yet.

Having read through the thread, it is my opinion that what Faithful Wife was trying to do was use an analogical argument with inductive reasoning to show that men view porn and get aroused.
Because women are wired differently, they use attention from strange men and also get aroused.

In essence both were doing the same thing.
One by looking at strange women, and getting aroused.
The other by basking in the gaze/ attention of strange men, and getting aroused.

I don't think she meant to derail the thread into one about men and porn.


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## SomedayDig




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## doubletrouble

Wow that was painful to read, and I skipped a few pages. 

I thought it would be good, at first. 

Y'all are nuts anyway.


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## SomedayDig

Caribbean Man said:


> I don't think she meant to derail the thread into one about men and porn.


LOL...for not meaning to she did quite a fair job :rofl:


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## Nucking Futs

doubletrouble said:


> Y'all are nuts anyway.


Not me.


----------



## Wiserforit

Caribbean Man said:


> Hold your horses!
> Not just yet.
> 
> Having read through the thread, it is my opinion that what Faithful Wife was trying to do was use an analogical argument with inductive reasoning to show that men view porn and get aroused.
> Because women are wired differently, they use attention from strange men and also get aroused.
> 
> In essence both were doing the same thing.
> One by looking at strange women, and getting aroused.
> The other by basking in the gaze/ attention of strange men, and getting aroused.
> 
> I don't think she meant to derail the thread into one about men and porn.


She used the fallacy of definition disengenuously, and did derail the thread into porn. So how can it be said she did not mean to do just exactly what she did?

In this deployment of the fallacy of definition we define all "secret sexual experiences" to be the _same thing_.

So raping a 12 year old girl is the same thing as looking at playboy in this fallacy. She doesn't believe that. She only used it to attack porn. Ergo, she is willing to use an argument she does not even believe in herself. 

Along the way she incessantly spoke derisively about all men as a group despite being repeatedly reminded. 

Generally I see this out of people who are pursuing the strategy of "Well, I'm not going to convince you, but I can make you angry..."


----------



## Entropy3000

Caribbean Man said:


> Hold your horses!
> Not just yet.
> 
> Having read through the thread, it is my opinion that what Faithful Wife was trying to do was use an analogical argument with inductive reasoning to show that men view porn and get aroused.
> Because women are wired differently, they use attention from strange men and also get aroused.
> 
> In essence both were doing the same thing.
> One by looking at strange women, and getting aroused.
> The other by basking in the gaze/ attention of strange men, and getting aroused.
> 
> I don't think she meant to derail the thread into one about men and porn.


Ohhhh. Maybe now that I hear a man explain it, it makes sense.


just kidding


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## SomedayDig

Entropy3000 said:


> Ohhhh. Maybe now that I hear a man explain it, it makes sense.
> 
> 
> just kidding


Hey...you just created a "topper". Nice.


----------



## Cosmos

Caribbean Man said:


> Hold your horses!
> Not just yet.
> 
> Having read through the thread, it is my opinion that what Faithful Wife was trying to do was use an analogical argument with inductive reasoning to show that men view porn and get aroused.
> Because women are wired differently, they use attention from strange men and also get aroused.
> 
> In essence both were doing the same thing.
> One by looking at strange women, and getting aroused.
> The other by basking in the gaze/ attention of strange men, and getting aroused.
> 
> I don't think she meant to derail the thread into one about men and porn.


:iagree:

No, I don't think she did, either. To a large extent I can quite see where she's coming from with her analogy, but I didn't comment because I no longer get involved in anything relating to the P word.


----------



## Entropy3000

SomedayDig said:


> Hey...you just created a "topper". Nice.


Oh, like the old joke where the last guy says yeah and the bottoms sandy.


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## TCSRedhead

Entropy3000 said:


> Ohhhh. Maybe now that I hear a man explain it, it makes sense.
> 
> 
> just kidding


don't you know that all explanations and opinions make more sense when expressed by someone with a penis? Wait, wrong thread!


----------



## SomedayDig

Ohhh...you two.... :rofl:


----------



## Caribbean Man

Wiserforit said:


> So raping a 12 year old girl is the same thing as looking at playboy in this fallacy. She doesn't believe that. * She only used it to attack porn. Ergo, she is willing to use an argument she does not even believe in herself. *


Your conclusion here is incorrect.
She stated several times on this thread that both she and her husband use porn.
So she could not have been " attacking " porn.

Deductively, her argument is sound , because in her argument, the porn is not the subject matter, but the pleasure derived form viewing it is the subject.
She then goes on to compare that pleasure men get from viewing women as sex objects with the pleasure women get from being viewed in a sexual manner by men in a particular environment.
Baseline:
Both men and women can and often do derive transient sexual pleasure from different sources external of their relationship.

That was her argument.


----------



## Entropy3000

TCSRedhead said:


> don't you know that all explanations and opinions make more sense when expressed by someone with a penis? Wait, wrong thread!


If that were true then the largest penis would make the most sense. Ah! And since men on TAM have the largest on average they make the most sense. 

Nah ...


----------



## Caribbean Man

Cosmos said:


> :iagree:
> 
> No, I don't think she did, either. To a large extent I can quite see where she's coming from with her analogy, but I didn't comment because I no longer get involved in anything relating to the P word.


The subject of porn does trigger a lot of defences and offences especially where none is needed.


----------



## the guy

WTF,
Can some one give me a recap that isn't 20 pages long?

Or is just one of those thread that startd to take its own direction since its has nothing to do with OP but rather a friend????


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## the guy

Especially when its about GNO


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## Entropy3000

the guy said:


> Especially when its about GNO


Save yourself and do not bother.


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## Davelli0331

Jesus someone take this thread out back and shoot it


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## Thundarr

TCSRedhead said:


> don't you know that all explanations and opinions make more sense when expressed by someone with a penis? Wait, wrong thread!


You're welcome TCSRedhead. I just helped your argument make more sense merely by quoting it and having a penis.


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## committed4ever

Davelli0331 said:


> Jesus someone take this thread out back and shoot it


We tried to kill it but it wouldn't die. This should do it though. i'm pretty good at killing threads


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## Wiserforit

First this:



Caribbean Man said:


> Deductively, her argument is sound


It isn't even a deduction. You have obviously never taken logic, and I mean glaringly obvious. Let's see you admit to that. Because one of the first things you learn in logic is what deductive reasoning is. 

The fallacy of definition could not be more obvious here.




> Your conclusion here is incorrect. She stated several times on this thread that both she and her husband use porn.
> So she could not have been " attacking " porn.


You seem to have missed where she specifically stated she was playing "devil's advocate", which by definition means she does not personally hold to the argument she is making. 

You cannot use her personal beliefs or practices when she is specifically telling you that she is not using her personal beliefs in making her argument now, can you?

You can design much prettier uniforms than me I am quite sure. But you are on my turf here. 




> , because in her argument, the porn is not the subject matter, but the pleasure derived form viewing it is the subject.
> She then goes on to compare that pleasure men get from viewing women as sex objects with the pleasure women get from being viewed in a sexual manner by men in a particular environment.
> Baseline:
> Both men and women can and often do derive transient sexual pleasure from different sources external of their relationship.
> 
> That was her argument.


Well that sure was a lesson in watching someone who has never taken logic. 

One can define or assert all that which gives sexual pleasure to be the same, sure. That is not an argument. It is not deduction. It is a definition. And it is a well-known logical fallacy.

Which you would know, if you had taken logic.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Wiserforit said:


> *You seem to have missed where she specifically stated she was playing "devil's advocate", which by definition means she does not personally hold to the argument she is making. *
> 
> You cannot use her personal beliefs or practices when she is specifically telling you that she is not using her personal beliefs in making her argument now, can you?


* dev·il's advocate (dvlz)*
n.
1. _One who argues against a cause or position, not as a committed opponent but simply for the sake of argument or to determine the validity of the cause or position._

Is " playing Devi's advocate " an acceptable technique in an argument?
Yes? No?

This is the structure of FW's argument.

1] Men love porn

2] Women love sexual attention from men, contextually , GNO's

3] Nothing is wrong men being aroused by porn.

4] Nothing is wrong with a woman being aroused by attention from men, in a GNO.

5]Technically,both parties in committed relationships can get sexual arousal from sources external to their partner, without cheating.

6] Women generally don't like the idea of their husbands viewing porn alone, and getting sexual pleasure from it.

7]_*Similarly*,_ Men don't like the idea of their wives deriving sexual pleasure from other men lusting after her , when they are apart/ alone.

8] FW [ Faithful Wife] does not do GNO's and only goes dancing with her husband. Men still lust after her, she still gets pleasure, _but she is in the company of her husband, and he approves._

9]FW's husband also views porn but he does not view porn alone. He only views it with her, they both enjoy and she approves _that_.

10]They have both reached a compromise by comparing _apples & oranges _, by recognizing that apples & oranges have lots in common , but most of all they are both FOOD.
Apples = Porn. Oranges = GNO's. Food = Sexual Arousal & fulfilment.
They are both eating their cakes and having it.
They are both winners.

Synopsis;
Using porn does not automatically make one a cheater, but it can lead to problems & cheating.
GNO's does not automatically make a wife a cheater, but it can lead to problems , even faster than porn, and cheating.
Both are relative to the persons involved.

What is needed is a way to find a middle ground, a compromise, so that everyone is a winner and no one feels cheated or repressed.

IMO, hers is a very reasonable approach to a recurring problem in marriages, and right here on TAM.
Do you think its an unreasonable approach?


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## Dollystanford




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## Plan 9 from OS




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## SomedayDig

"Men love porn".

That is one of the most ridiculous statements ever.


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## strugglinghusband

Davelli0331 said:


> Jesus someone take this thread out back and shoot it


----------



## committed4ever

strugglinghusband said:


>


Thats already been tried . Guess we didn't have the pics so it didn't happen.


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## 2ntnuf

Porky Pig Cartoon Ending "That's All Folks!" - YouTube


----------

