# Christmas Trees Pagan Origin?



## austincp

Ok so I have fallen completely in love with this woman and its been a long time we've been together. We are absolutely perfect for each other. Neither of us have our doubts or have any problems, and we know we are going to get married. Hopefully soon. 

We (I) just had one little issue recently come up that is something im not sure how to approach and I could really use some advice. 

I just figured out after all this time that she has a belief against Christmas trees for Christmas. Im religious yes, but dont have near the depth in it she does, this is no big deal we were raised a little different and bother understand....

Although this whole Christmas tree thing may sound stupid, but it caught me off guard. I was raised around driving up and getting a Christmas tree and decorating it for Christmas, its just something we always did. Something I really want my kids to grow up experiencing. 

Its something to due with a pagan origin, which is something i really am trying to read more and understand.

I love her and need her in my life shes amazing and i could really use some advice on how to come to a comprise with her on this. We havent really got into it or discussed it she just happened to say something about trees for some reason and it caught me way off guard. 

I dont know any help would be greatly appreciated before I bring it up to her. 


Thanks,

Austin!


----------



## Starstarfish

First, let me say that a lot of things might have "pagan" origins, but - in the modern day and age they have completely lost that meaning. Just to play Devil's advocate for a moment - does she call the days of the week something else, given that for example, Thursday is named after Thor and Friday is named after Frigga? (Norse pagan gods.)

As for a discussion about the origins of the Christmas tree, like anything of folkloric tradition, its origin is up for debate, and historians have a variety of theories as to the original purpose behind the practice. 

Open warning - I'm a Master's level History major graduate, so - this might get boring, boggy, and technical. 

Yes - there is a commonly held belief that the Christmas tree began as some unknown "pre-Christian" ceremony of unknown purpose, however, evidence for the practice of a Christmas tree as we know it (AKA decorating it, and putting it out specifically for Christmas time) doesn't show up in historical writings into well into the Middle Ages. None of the accounts of pre-Christian times (AKA writings from Romans or Greeks about Celts or Germanics peoples) specifically mention decorating a tree, particularly an evergreen as a celebration, as most of the focus is the native interest in oak trees. Popular Victorian-era psuedo-historical books like "The Golden Bough" over-emphasized the importance of tree worship to Druid-led Celtic groups, so it's not a big leap that the two things have been linked together - Christmas trees and "pagans", even if there's little to no historical evidence to support that theory. 

Instead, the Christmas tree was thought to have been a practice began by a shipping Guild, who used the tree as a way to store prizes (quite often food) for their annual holiday party. Concurrently, trees were also used for medieval mystery plays (theatrical representations of Biblical stories) to represent the tree in the Garden of Eden, and as such were decorated with apples, and wafers. These plays were performed on Christmas Eve, to remind parishioners on why Christ's coming was neccessary - the Fall of Man, and sin, and so - the tree, covered in apples served as a reminder. Over time, the apples gave way to shiny red ornaments and the wafers into homemade cookies, and candles (which sounds really dangerous) were added to represent the Light Christ brought to a dark world. 

Christmas trees for home decoration were most popular in German Lutheran areas, where Christmas trees were used to decorate the home and show denomination allegiance, as Catholic homes preferred to decorate with a creche (AKA a manger scene) instead. Hessian soldiers brought to Canada and America by the British introduced the practice to North America. 

Ultimately, the practice became worldwide, and was adopted by cultures and people the world over. Each country/culture has its own symbols as to what generally goes on the tree, when the tree should be put up or taken down, etc. Ultimately, these days the Christmas tree serves a purpose even in families that are not Christian, or are non-practicing - it serves as a family ceremony of yearly remembrance, decorating with ornaments passed down over the generations, and purchased over a life time. 

As for how to compromise with her on this, perhaps you should explain that last part - assuming that is the reason you enjoy the practice, that it reminds you of family, that it brings up good memories, that it is a family tradition. Explain that you are willing to also decorate with more religious symbology as well ( a manger scene?) but you are hoping she can understand why this is important to you.


----------



## austincp

Thanks alot I really appreciate what you had to say. As for the days of the week no she doesnt call them anything special. I will be sure to get back to you when I get the chance to work this out with her.

This is alot for me to wrap my brain around in understanding the whole thing. I am just going to for sure get a case together before I go into this with her, and try to sound like i know a little. 

Like I said its all new to me. I cant lose we need eachother period. Im working up the nerve to discuss this with her hopefully soon. 

Thanks again its greatly appreciated!

Austin!


----------



## Benevolence

Ok two perfect examples, look up the origins of Halloween and wedding rings! 

Life is what you make of it, tell her to lighten up.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Good luck. This can be a major issue. Hope it works out well for you two.


----------



## austincp

2ntnuf said:


> Good luck. This can be a major issue. Hope it works out well for you two.


Well what an eye opener.....it was a major issue and is. Shes not budging weve been together so long, and it comes down to this. I knew haloween she didnt do but we hardly did either so thats no problem. 

This christmas tree things gonna make or break us I guess. 

Shes set solid theres no meeting in the middle shes NOT getting a tree and if I cant do without one then I should not drag our relationship on. 

This is gonna tear me apart i guess my only option is to cut my loses and go without a tree....I cant lose her period.



Thanks Guys


----------



## that_girl

Christmas trees are fun. They are what you want them to be.

You two are NOT perfect together. She's got these religious views and you don't. NOT a good situation for a marriage or raising children.


----------



## that_girl

Lose her. Dude. She is not the one for you. I can't imagine my holidays without celebration! Dang.


----------



## jfv

If this is her stance on trees, what is her stance on the Emperor Constantine taking Dec. 25th Mithra's birthday (Pagan God) and giving it to Jesus in order to give the people a smoother transition from paganism to christianity.


----------



## that_girl

And all the fun of the holidays will be void. Ugh. No Easter, no Christmas tree, no Halloween? damn. Don't sacrifice what YOU want for her. She has no problem NOT sacrificing anything for you and it will get WAY WORSE when kids come along. I've seen this before.


----------



## austincp

that_girl said:


> Lose her. Dude. She is not the one for you. I can't imagine my holidays without celebration! Dang.


They celebrate just no tree or santa....idk itd kill me its been so long.


----------



## that_girl

Well, your choice...but...eesh. No Christmas tree. That's a huge tradition in my family. My family is Christian too. Evangelical Christian (i'm not). But they all have trees.

Extremists scare me. I couldn't live with someone who was "MY WAY OR NO WAY!"


----------



## austincp

I know thats how mines always been. Shes never been like this its always been everything for me she will do anything and everything for me. And then we run into the damn stupid christmas tree thing.


----------



## that_girl

My friend is Jewish and dated a Christian girl for 4 years. Everything was great. Neither were super religious. The closer they got to engagement/marriage/children, the more religious she got, until finally she told him he couldn't be Jewish "in the house" because the kids would be christian.



Yea. He dumped her. As hard as it was.

Don't throw away who YOU are for this. It will only get worse. Extremists also tend to judge EVERYTHING you do. So...get ready for that. Fun times.


----------



## Gaia

Ok as one of a pagan belief... decorating a tree is part of the pagans belief... depending upon which one you go with however.... just because some beliefs overlap others... does not mean it can not be celebrated the way you want. 


Wicca, Pagan and Witchcraft Holidays | Winter Solstice | Yule Lore


Christmas traditions, Christmas tree history
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gaia

So in reality... as one poster stated... its hard to trace the origins of the christmas tree as many beliefs used it so it is not strictly pagan nor is it strictly christian. I agree that you SO needs to lighten up.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ShawnD

that_girl said:


> And all the fun of the holidays will be void. Ugh. No Easter, no Christmas tree, no Halloween? damn. Don't sacrifice what YOU want for her. She has no problem NOT sacrificing anything for you and it will get WAY WORSE when kids come along. I've seen this before.


I've noticed a trend: people who don't celebrate things are INSANE. It doesn't matter what religion or not-religion that person claims to be part of.

Celebration of the winter solstice is as old as humanity itself because the solstice marks the day that the sun "returns" and shines longer each day for the next 6 months. 
Evergreen trees as symbolism goes way back because they're trees that stay green all year. That seems like a magical property of them. All other trees lose leaves and look dead, but evergreens always appear to be alive and well.
The easter bunny is similar. Rabbits are _good_ animals (food) that multiply very quickly, so it's a nice symbol of fertility. One could also worship rats because they multiply fast, but rats are pest animals that nobody would want to worship.



> look up the origins of Halloween


The fundamentalist Christian hate of Halloween is absolutely mind boggling. In the earlier days of Christianity, November 1 was called All Saints Day, All Hallows, or Hallowmas. Since October 31 is the day before All Hallows Day, it's called All Hallows Eve. It's just like Christmas wording. The day before Christmas Day is called Christmas Eve. There was never any conflict between Christianity and Halloween. Christianity was actually a strong supporter of celebrating Halloween, just as they were strong supporters of Christmas. 
The modern day Christians who rally against Halloween can only be described as retarded. It wouldn't shock me at all if the more insane Christians also started rallying against Christmas and Easter, claiming both of them to be pagan and evil, just like they claim Halloween is pagan/witchcraft and evil.


----------



## that_girl

I didn't say anyone was insane. I was saying that I couldn't have a partner that wouldn't get into the celebrations with me because I love it. I wouldn't want my kids to go without either.


----------



## norajane

austincp said:


> *Well what an eye opener*.....it was a major issue and is. Shes not budging *weve been together so long, and it comes down to this.* I knew haloween she didnt do but we hardly did either so thats no problem.
> 
> This christmas tree things gonna make or break us I guess.
> 
> Shes set solid *theres no meeting in the middle *shes NOT getting a tree and *if I cant do without one then I should not drag our relationship on*.
> 
> This is gonna tear me apart i guess my only option is to cut my loses and go without a tree....I cant lose her period.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Guys


Oh, you *should *lose her, period!

The problem isn't the tree; the problem is she would end your relationship rather than to 1) care even a tiny little bit about how YOU feel about it much less take your feelings into consideration in any way, and 2) compromise in any way.

There is probably more of this kind of sh*t in her brain that you haven't yet encountered.

Don't sign up for a lifetime of "it's my way or the highway". That's a horrible, soul-sucking way to live. It's your life, too. 

Marry her only if you are prepared to give up and give away everything and anything that means something to you because she's not into it for whatever stupid reason she's not into it. Marry her if you agree that your thoughts, feelings, wants and needs are not important because that's exactly how she feels about it. Marry her if you are ok with her deciding that "sex is a pagan activity" so you should only do it to make a baby.


----------



## norajane

austincp said:


> I know thats how mines always been. Shes never been like this its always been everything for me she will do anything and everything for me. And then we run into the damn stupid christmas tree thing.


I'm pretty certain this is not the only thing she will forbid in your home and in your life. If she can be this way about a tree, she can be this way about anything. It just likely hasn't come up yet, but after marriage, all bets are off.


----------



## that_girl

Yea. Now it's the christmas tree, soon it will be other things...all without regards to YOUR beliefs. Yuck.


----------



## Runs like Dog

You Christians are funny sometimes the things you worry about.


----------



## RandomDude

that_girl said:


> Christmas trees are fun. They are what you want them to be.
> 
> You two are NOT perfect together. She's got these religious views and you don't. NOT a good situation for a marriage or raising children.


I have to agree, I thought my wife and I were perfect, but then our religious issues escalated, and I ended up well... finding and joining this forum!!!


----------



## 2ntnuf

I think this could be a fantastic learning experience for you. You might be able to learn how to talk with someone who has different ideas and customs. You may be able to see her side of the story. That doesn't mean you have to accept it for yourself. I think this could be a great opportunity to learn about your core beliefs. Good luck.


----------



## EleGirl

How long have the two of you been together? I sounds like not even year and this is the first Christmas. So how long has it been?

The rule of thumb I’ve heard is that people should date for at least one year before becoming engaged. That way we see the other person through all of the seasons, holidays, life’s events, etc. The situation you are going through sure does make this seem wise. Then only after that year do you get engaged, and stay engaged for another year before marriage. This way you will get to know them very well.

So how did you get all the way to almost married and not know this about her? It sounds like she kept it from you and only now that she is feeling more secure (you are so in love that you would compromise this after all.) so now she’s starting to tell you the things that she held back.

You really need to have a very in-depth talk with her about traditions and religious beliefs. No Halloween, no Christmas tree. What else is there? IMHO, her beliefs about both of them are based erroneous informant that has been spread through some Christian groups. But most of all what other traditions that you hold dear will she not allow you to have and not allow you to pass on to your children? 

I had a friend once who was married to a woman who did not allow Christmas trees or presents or anything but the most strict part of the religious observation. I was at their house for a while one Christmas. They had elementary aged boys. Those were the two most miserable kids I’ve ever seen. They knew what all of their school friends were up to on Christmas day. But they could not have any of it. I felt so bad for those kids.


----------



## NewtoThisMarriageThing

I don't do the Christmas thing either but my husband and I have the same beliefs. If she's a devoted Christian, and you're not or not working on growing in you're walk, your relationship will just not work. Ever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Starstarfish

There are plenty of devoted Christmas who visibly celebrate Christmas by decorating, including the decorating of Christmas trees. 

While I agree that both people should be on the same page about something so fundamental, having or not having a Christmas tree doesn't show whether or not you are "right" with the Lord - only the Lord knows that.


----------



## RandomDude

that_girl said:


> My friend is Jewish and dated a Christian girl for 4 years. Everything was great. Neither were super religious. *The closer they got to engagement/marriage/children, the more religious she got*, until finally she told him he couldn't be Jewish "in the house" because the kids would be christian.


Sounds exactly like what happened with my wife and I...


----------



## Runs like Dog

The Romans crucified Santa Claus on a burning bush.


----------



## Gaia

Lol rld!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vi_bride04

This is more than a tree. This is the basis of your entire relationship.

Like someone else mentioned, if she cannot compromise or even begin to see your view and take considerations of your feelings...you may want to re-evaluate things. 

Compromise, empathy, compassion, respect...those are all needed for a healthy relationship. By her putting her foot down and saying "No way, its my way or the highway so get lost if you don't like it" just shows utter disrespect for your views and your feelings and a great unwillingness to even attempt to see it from your point of view. 

You enjoy the tree b/c of the happy times during Christmas it reminds you of. You don't enjoy the tree b/c of Pagan beliefs. Why can't she compromise for YOU and look at the entire picture that its not about religion at all but something that you enjoy.


----------



## Gaia

Totally agree with vibride here. I'm wiccan but I still enjoy using angel ornaments and such because they are both beautiful and to me they represent peace and harmony. Heck they are just winged people ... just like a tree is a tree....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

