# A Fella in need of help...



## Sad_in_NY (Jun 23, 2010)

I will admit, I am desparate. I have no wehere else to turn.

I am afraid that my marriage is being held together by strings. 

A bit of background - I have been married to my wofe for 7 years, we dated for about 3 years prior to that. We have 2 wonderful little girls (4 & 1). We live in the Empire State, having just moved in here in January. 

I love my wife with all of my heart and I think she is the sexiest woman I have ever known. I don't want my marriage to end like many others, I want to fight for it, but lately I feel that I am the only one fighting. 

A lot of my struggles have to do with the sex in our marriage. My wife and I have discussed at length the differences in our sexual appetites. She sums it simply as "your a guy, I'm a girl". I admit, I have a high sex drive, even at 37 I lust for my wife non-stop. But, I am tired of the rejection....

Last night was the final of a lot of final straws for me. I am not sure when we had sex last, maybe 2 weeks ago??? But, this Saturday she woke me with the beginings of a wonderful BJ for "Father's Day", but we were interrupted by pitter patter of little feet. She pledged to pick where she left off later in the weekend. Sunday evening as we cleaning up and picking the gilrs to bed, I let my wofe know how sexy I thought she was that day and I how I was looking forward to making love to her. I get barely a notice from her. She proceeds to watch TV and when we head up to bed, she falls asleep before I come out from brushing my teeth. 

So, yesterday my wife is working from home which means her cell phone is working, so I try some "Sexting" to heat things up - we have discussed this and she liked the idea but couldn't do it cuz she gets no reception in her office. I sent her 3 different sexts, one was "I had a super sexy dream about you last night. Do you wanna hear about it?" She didn't reply to any of them. 

Then last night, I tried the same move after putting the girls to bed - not a moan or a heavy breath. I moved on... We go to bed, she turns on the TV and we watch a little Food Network, during the commercials she is very affectionate and I reciprocate - but obviously misread her signals cuz she doesn't want to fool around, just wants me to hold her while she falls asleep. 

I am done - I am finished. I am not sure how I got "here" in my life. A place where I communicate what I "want/need" and I am called "selfish". Selfish cuz I want to make love to my wife more than once every 2 weeks??? Selfish cuz I want our sex life to fun again??? 

I get sad cuz I fall back on the saying that a mentor once told me "people make happen what they want to make happen". Seems simple enough, but it applies to everything - if my wife wanted to have sex with me - she would. So why doesn't my wife want to have sex with me? I have asked numerous times - I get no answer. "Stressed from work", "The kids are sick", "I am tired" so even when I cherry pick the occasions to initiate, when the stars are aligned I get rejected. So, now we are where we always descend to - she has to initiate for us to have sex. A position she says that she loathes, but she created it. 

So, I need help - I think I need to seek 1:1 counseling, I need to adjust my expectations. How do I go about reaching out to a therapist?

Thanks in advance


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

i think you need to stop your near constant advances and start making her wonder why you stopped. it sounds like your too willing and maybe she isnt turned on by that.


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## Sad_in_NY (Jun 23, 2010)

okeydokie said:


> i think you need to stop your near constant advances and start making her wonder why you stopped. it sounds like your too willing and maybe she isnt turned on by that.


You're right, but I have tried that, I have shut it down for weeks at a time. Been everything a husband/father should be but reigned in the sex drive. It had zero effect. She did notice and was angry/hurt that I stopped.


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## FOM (Jun 23, 2010)

Sexual desire is seldom equally matched between a husband and wife. The best you can do is work toward some sort of compromise. How was the sex before you had kids? I ask because I have 2 small children, and it has definitely changed her desire. Sex was great before our first child was born, but it took about 14 months for her "groove" to come back after giving birth. No amount of romance, backrubs, help around the house, etc, changed that. Our 2nd child is 7 months old, and she's basically going through the same thing. She's willing to have sex with me, but she isn't into it, so it's pretty mundane. Good sex is a big deal to me, and I don't feel as connected to her without it. Men get a bad rap for this, but it's just the way we're wired. Does your wife understand that sex is more than just a physical thing for a man?

Try to be patient and work on other relationship issues that are problems right now. Saying disrespectful things and blowing up at her won't help her sexual desire. Don't completely stop the advances, but you might throttle back a little and work on some non sexual intimacy. The sex will eventually get back on track if it was good before the children came along, IF EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE RELATIONSHIP IS GOOD. That's how most women are wired, and it's important that you understand this.

Do you ever get a babysitter or have date nights?


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## Sad_in_NY (Jun 23, 2010)

FOM said:


> Sexual desire is seldom equally matched between a husband and wife. The best you can do is work toward some sort of compromise. How was the sex before you had kids? I ask because I have 2 small children, and it has definitely changed her desire. Sex was great before our first child was born, but it took about 14 months for her "groove" to come back after giving birth. No amount of romance, backrubs, help around the house, etc, changed that. Our 2nd child is 7 months old, and she's basically going through the same thing. She's willing to have sex with me, but she isn't into it, so it's pretty mundane. Good sex is a big deal to me, and I don't feel as connected to her without it. Men get a bad rap for this, but it's just the way we're wired. Does your wife understand that sex is more than just a physical thing for a man?
> 
> Try to be patient and work on other relationship issues that are problems right now. Saying disrespectful things and blowing up at her won't help her sexual desire. Don't completely stop the advances, but you might throttle back a little and work on some non sexual intimacy. The sex will eventually get back on track if it was good before the children came along, IF EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE RELATIONSHIP IS GOOD. That's how most women are wired, and it's important that you understand this.
> 
> Do you ever get a babysitter or have date nights?


Yes, she understands that sex is far more than just a physical thing for me - I am the one that begs for more foreplay and wants to slow it down. 

The sex was aways a bit "off", we were never completely on the same page. But, I thought we were working on it.

Funny, we have had baby sitters for date nights 3 times in the last 8 weeks:

1st Time - I came home from dropping the sitter off to find my wife in lingerie (something i have been begging for years). She came to bed and promptly fell asleep.

2nd time - I came home to find my wife asleep at 10:30.

3rd time - That day she got her hair and nails done, which usually drives up her sex drive cuz she "feels sexy" and exchanging some sexts about her wearing the lingerie again and watching an (soft core) adult feature together. I came home from dropping off the sitter to find my wife in her comfy PJs and falling asleep. With no "Hey, I am whooped, can I get a rainscheck on tonight?" Just went to sleep at 10:15. 

We had a good talk after the 3rd time - she said that she "finally understood where I was coming from" even though we have had that discussion about 20 times. The discussion centered around me explaing that I want/need sex and certain sexual activities and that she willingly ignores them despite claiming to enjoy them too, that it hurts cuz it seems like she doesn't care about my happiness. That was 2 weeks ago - nothing has changed since...


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## tjohnson (Mar 10, 2010)

3 reasons in my opinion that a women closes down the sex department 

1-She is not happy about things not related to you sexually. she doesn't feel connected, you are too needy, you don't listen.... it sounds like you are very attentive (perhaps to a fault). Your hygene...whatever. There are allot of good info googling "ways to be a good husband"...try these things see if there are needs you are not meeting

2-She doesn't enjoy sex that much. did she when you dated? try mixing it up. Perhaps she is bored. I have heard toys can reinvigorate women. Don't assumen things cannot be improved 

3-Her libido is just low-This could be by the pill. My wife used to wake up frequently with soaked panties. This hasn't happed in a while exept for a year ago when she stopped taking the pill. For those 3 days she practically chased me around the house. there could be other medicine or conditions that explain it. 

4-She has gotten complacent and does not feel the need to give in this way. 

Frequently is is reason #1. 

I would first let reiterate your frustration. You have needs that are not being met and they are legitimate. Be assertive. Deep down inside many women like and respect that. I was experiencing the same problem you had. I sat her down and told her how our relationship was my top priority. I asked her if there were things that she would like to see me do more of or less of. There were areas were i was dropping the ball. I then told her that I wanted to have sex more with her as it helps us to connect but, understood that she may not share my drive and that made me sad. But, did let her know in no uncertain terms that I need to release at least 2-3 per week. If she is not available (or not willing to make herself such) I told her i would take matters into my own hands. I would prefer her to be involved (and sometimes she is) but, sometimese not. This makes her sad as she thinks (that should be her job). This has helped someowhat and has made us consider alternatives for the pill. This may work for you but for me it clarified how important this is to you. It is still work in progress.. not to steal you thread.

The fact that she started to give you a BJ tells me she is not a total Bi#@ and wants to please you (granted once a year fathers day present will not cure your problem). 

It is interesting that she was hurt by your lack of trying. She has to understand that you getting rejected a majority of the times makes you not want to try to initiat. On the other hand you cannot wait for it to only be on her schedule. I agree with okedokey that frequency of andvances should be toned down.


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## FOM (Jun 23, 2010)

What do you mean by "the sex was always a bit "off" "?


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## Sad_in_NY (Jun 23, 2010)

TJ - thanks a ton for the feedback 

I think #2 & #3 are the main drivers. I have sat her down several times asking what I can do to improve our marriage. But, she says that there isn't anything. I do 50+% of the child rearing, most of the cooking, I clean - I try to do my share. 

Our sex was great for the first 9 months of dating, it has slowly eroded. She went through the Pill phase, but has not been back on birth control for about 3 years. 

I know she has a low libido and she admits to wanting that to change but she will not speak to a doctor about it. So it leaves me wondering if I am just not as desirable as she is! And that is a terrible feeling


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## Sad_in_NY (Jun 23, 2010)

FOM said:


> What do you mean by "the sex was always a bit "off" "?


I mean that were never completely on the same page in terms of "frequency and boundaries". Strangely, my wofe will admit to needing to increase our frequency but after having sex once in 2 weeks she will not see anything wrong with it. Or being on vacation without the kids for 5 days and only having sex once. And boundaries is about use of "props". She likes using sex toys, watching porn and wearing lingerie. But, will not talk dirty or discuss sex. And to talk to her it is like she has never had a sexual fantasy.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

This is just my personal $.02

I would arrange for a sitter, get some take home dinner, and explain to her that due to her constant sexual rejection you are on the verge of ending the marriage. I would be just that blunt too, because she needs to be shocked out of her complacency about this issue and she needs to understand that it is JUST THAT SERIOUS!!

Next I would recommend that you take her hands and say, "Dear, do you want to lose this house, live apart, have to go back to work to support yourself and the children, and have half the nights of the week where I have the kids and you can not even say goodnight to them because they're at my house? Do you want to have to try to live on half of what we make together now or less? Well that is where life is heading if you don't start to get a grasp of how direly important it is to actually make efforts to at least have a mutual agreement that works FOR BOTH OF US not just for you regarding the frequency of sex." 

This talk will very likely shock her but that's probably a good thing. In my opinion she needs to be warned that continued complacency will result in a divorce. 

To continue the talk I would give her an example to help her understand. She enjoys the consistency and stability of your paycheck, and this is something that meets her needs and kindles some love in her heart for you--probably a warm, cozy affection. So what she does with sex is roughly the equivalent of her and the children starving with hunger and you withholding your paycheck, telling her day after day that you'll give her grocery money today....then "forgetting." Meanwhile she can hear the cries of the children and she herself is hurting, scared, wondering when she may eat again...and you just keep all your money or maybe give her just the bare minimum of $5. 

To make an even more realistic example, you make your own personal checking account and have your check deposited there. She has access to NO MONEY WHATSOEVER. You decide when a bill gets paid, if at all. And on a regular occasion you do not pay the mortgage, the electricity--basic needs. So she constantly is trying to avoid foreclosure or shut off and is not sure from day to day if she and the children will have a roof over their heads or a place to sleep. On the occasion you will give just enough to not really pay off the bill but just to keep them at bay a little...

Now, in that situation would she be constantly begging? Would she be thinking of every way possible to feed the kids, feed herself, get money to pay the mortgage so they don't take the house? Would she find it acceptable that you keep what is by all rights yours but which you promised to share as a couple the day you married her? Then why should you find it acceptable that she keep what is by all rights her but which SHE PROMISED TO SHARE AS A COUPLE the day she married you?

I am a lady and I mean no disrepect to females, but I've often found that they completely understand the "sharing financial security" need but do not understand it's essentially similar to "sharing sexual security" need. Maybe this will make sense to her and she'll get off her duff and make an effort. 

If not, I say ask her to leave. Yep....her not you. You aren't the one abandoning the marriage by refusing to contribute. Again, maybe THAT would shake her up to the seriousness of this.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

Affaircare said:


> This is just my personal $.02
> 
> I would arrange for a sitter, get some take home dinner, and explain to her that due to her constant sexual rejection you are on the verge of ending the marriage. I would be just that blunt too, because she needs to be shocked out of her complacency about this issue and she needs to understand that it is JUST THAT SERIOUS!!
> 
> ...




WOW!!!!! :smthumbup:


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## pulse (Mar 24, 2010)

Sorry to say but I believe that for some women with small children, sex can become just another chore to be done - not because her husband isn't attractive to her or anything like that, but just because physically AND mentally she is drained by day to day activities. Being tired and not in the mood are real excuses for women. However, there comes a time when a woman just has to make sex a priority just like she just has to do certain other stuff. 

I know it takes away much of the spontaneity but one way of possibly moving things on is to say that on one night per week (say every Wednesday) you'll put the kids to bed early and have sex. I would say both of you need to commit to this for a period of say 3 months to begin with and thereafter review things, maybe adjusting the frequency. During this period you'll know you'll be getting it at least once a week and she'll know exactly what's expected of her. Take care of yourself/leave her be the rest of the week. Hopefully this takes the pressure off you as you wont get rejected AND she knows she's not gonna have to reject you and feel guilty about doing so - and it's clear what is expected of her. 

Part of the agreement could be that you will initiate and she will keenly participate and return your advances. Eventually going through the motions should evoke dormant true emotions and desire in her. Just make every effort to ensure she's fully satisfied each time and keep things fresh. 

I know it all sounds very mechanical and clinical but, having got her attention as Affaircare mentions, the above could be a means to get you out of your present rut. The fact that she's upset if you don't initiate shows she definitely doesn't want to end up with no sex life at all or have you think about looking elsewhere, so do give it some thought.


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## tjohnson (Mar 10, 2010)

If your sex was not frequent while dating it is not realistic to think that marriage would make it better. Most men experience a "let down in that department" after marriage and kids. Perhaps it is a biological thing that some women are not as motivated to have sex if they after they have kids. Not sure if an IUD can have the same effect. 

I would not get paranoid about her not finding you attractive but, to be safe make sure your grooming/hygene/dress are up to par. If you are unfit you may want to work on this too. I have always been fit and had let myself go. It came out months later this was an area of "turn off" for my wife. Not that you should be back to your college/20s shape but a look in the mirror and honest assesment should not be ignored. On that topic it has been proven that more active people have higher libidos. Makes sense as the blood flows to the right areas. 

The fact that your wife fell asleep after your date nights stinks. Did she drink and does that put her to sleep often. 

As others have said you may need to compromise in this area. If your realationship is trully great in other areas you may need to take it for what it is. It is likely she overlooks some of your deficiences (and yes you have some-I tell my wife i don't but..LOL)
so you may need to look past this one. 

In a perfect world you would get exactly what you want with the frequency you want. I have heard stories about men marrying highly sexed women who want it all the time. When the men get older and can't perform the way they used to (got forbid). They get dumped for a young stud who can give it to them more often and the man has to live his "golden years" alone and distraught. 

Marriage is work and involves compromise on both sides. The fact that she likes to watch porn and use toys (i am assuming together) is great. Some women have hangups about this and you should consider yourself fortunate that she is relatively liberal. Some women are not into fantasies or talking dirty. I have heard about some couples with this all too common libido/drive disconnect who supplement intercourse with porn and bjs. The visual stimulation makes it "not so much work for her" as you are already aroused. You can also "lend a hand" or "warm things up for her" for the same purpose. It may be less than you want but, would offer more connection than solo sex and provide the release you need. You could suplement your "connecting" with her in non-sexual ways. You may want to do this anyway although it sounds like you are the type that already does. 

Good luck. Hope you can find a solution or compromise that works.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

pulse said:


> Sorry to say but I believe that for some women with small children, sex can become just another chore to be done - not because her husband isn't attractive to her or anything like that, but just because physically AND mentally she is drained by day to day activities. Being tired and not in the mood are real excuses for women. However, there comes a time when a woman just has to make sex a priority just like she just has to do certain other stuff.



i dont necessarily disagree with what you say above, however in my case i have seen my wife make plenty of time for other things that were important to her during that time, all while never making time for intimacy. thats the confusing part. i certainly dont have problems with her doing her things, but dont give me the "too tired" excuse when you find the energy for the other stuff.


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## Sad_in_NY (Jun 23, 2010)

TJ - your advice made me think of 4 year old's latest mantra "you get what you get and you don't get upset"


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

AC,
This is perfect - I wouldn't change a word. I am going to "add" a bit though. 

It sounds like he is killing her desire by crowding her emotionally. He needs to learn how to "detach" and spend less time focused on her, focused on trying to make her happy all the time. 

He also needs to learn to stop being a doormat. If my wife rejected me frequently and then complained when I ignored her sexually I would just laugh at her and keep ignoring her. Seriously. That is just screwing with someones mind. 

It is ok to "jumpstart" their sex life with fear but it is hard to sustain it with the fear of divorce. If he simply learned to give her less attention day to day she would "WANT" sex to feel connected to him. 

This is difficult because it means being friendly, nice and helpful when they ARE together while also spending less time together and totally avoiding clingy behavior. 

Fella,
Dude - sorry - you send a sext and she ignores you and then you send 2 more. BAD MOVE. You do something like that and she doesn't respond you stop doing it. Pressuring someone like that is a turn off.






Affaircare said:


> This is just my personal $.02
> 
> I would arrange for a sitter, get some take home dinner, and explain to her that due to her constant sexual rejection you are on the verge of ending the marriage. I would be just that blunt too, because she needs to be shocked out of her complacency about this issue and she needs to understand that it is JUST THAT SERIOUS!!
> 
> ...


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## Sad_in_NY (Jun 23, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> AC,
> This is perfect - I wouldn't change a word. I am going to "add" a bit though.
> 
> It sounds like he is killing her desire by crowding her emotionally. He needs to learn how to "detach" and spend less time focused on her, focused on trying to make her happy all the time.
> ...



MEM - I love the perspectives I am getting here. But, I am a bit taken aback by the conclusions you have jumped to: Clingy? I really don't consider myself clingy - but something worth looking into I suppose.

I like the "if my wife..." part - is it so easy when it is your wife? When it is your life? Do you watch football and 2nd guess all the mistakes a QB makes? 

I agree I need to learn how to shut it down or to dial it back, but I am trying to figure that out...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sad,
No intent to offend you. Sorry for my poor choice of words. 

If I make some type of sexual overture to my wife and she doesn't respond, I stop. Because repeating that overture isn't about her anymore it is about ME wanting to get a favorable response. But what if she just isn't in the mood at that moment. And then I persist. THAT is a turn off. Because it comes across as "needy". 

What "normally" happens in a sex starved marriage is this awful sickening dynamic. It works like this:
- she rejects you for a while and you start to feel unloved and anxious
- to "fix it" you try harder - you are more helpful, more attentive more focused on her. But she "correctly" interprets all that as you wanting more love/sex/etc. And THAT makes her feel crowded

Emotional attention is loosely the equivalent of heat. 

Picture this - it is a really hot summer day and you are out in the sun. You are uncomfortably warm and your wife comes to give you a prolonged hug. That would make most people feel bad - hey they are ALREADY hot. 

New picture - it is a chilly winter afternoon, you are a little cold and your wife approaches for a long hug. 

BACK OFF from your wife emotionally. You can still be the same nice, fun guy you are. But do a lot LESS. Be around LESS. Stop approaching her for sex. If she complains just smile and say "if you want me, you can approach me". And if she plays chicken with you - steadily ratchet back the time and attention you give her. Start to emotionally detach a little. Let her feel a little emotional chill. 

Who says "ILY" first? Who approaches the other for hugs first? Start paying attention to that - start doing LESS and let her do MORE. 

Thousands of generations of evolution have shaped a womans sexual circuit board to light up with voltage when she feels her provider emotionally detaching. 

FYI: This is NOT based on a textbook. This is based on my personal experience. I have a very happy and sexual marriage in year 20 - together for 21 years. 

If I sexted my wife 3 times in a row without a response she would be angry - like WTF. If I liked it the first time I would have responded. 

AFTER you lower the emotional temperature to "chilly" some other stuff you can try. 

Have you ever figured out her cycle? Do it and then be dominant with her at her ovulation point. Works like magic with most women. 



Sad_in_NY said:


> MEM - I love the perspectives I am getting here. But, I am a bit taken aback by the conclusions you have jumped to: Clingy? I really don't consider myself clingy - but something worth looking into I suppose.
> 
> I like the "if my wife..." part - is it so easy when it is your wife? When it is your life? Do you watch football and 2nd guess all the mistakes a QB makes?
> 
> I agree I need to learn how to shut it down or to dial it back, but I am trying to figure that out...


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## swedish (Mar 6, 2008)

Have you ever set up daytime opportunities? It sounds like the attempts you list above had her going during the day but by 10pm she was dozing off.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

MEM11363 said:


> Stop approaching her for sex. If she complains just smile and say "if you want me, you can approach me". And if she plays chicken with you - steadily ratchet back the time and attention you give her. Start to emotionally detach a little. Let her feel a little emotional chill.


Sounds great in theory. The problem is that women are able to play that game far longer than a man can--even if they want sex.

This is what results in weeks then months, then years of sexual drought.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sorry - not if you have a spine. 

My marriage has always been highly sexual - hasn't always been smooth sailing. My W has never shut down sex for a month, much less many months - years. Even after having babies - within a week or two she found a way to do something for me on a regular basis until she healed. 

I guess everyone is different. I have a simple approach to this which is I put 100 percent into my marriage. I don't ask for much in return but what I do ask for isn't really negotiable. 

As for sex - the rules are simple. We are both very honest with each other about what is a turn on/turn off in and out of bed. Whether that is being physically fit or having no debt or always showering and brushing our teeth just before bed.

And my wife is entitled to stop having sex with me. I totally respect her right to do so. And at that point she has to decide if she wants to stay married when I start sleeping with a girl friend. I hope she does - don't want a divorce. But that is her choice. She ABSOLUTELY has the right to have sex or not, she does NOT have the right to demand my celibacy. I didn't give her that right and doubt I ever will. 

And to avoid caricature this is not a case of - I want it and she doesn't on Friday night and I say - guess I will go out to a pickup bar. Nothing further from the truth. But we have a frequency that we are both happy with and if she wanted to change that very much we would need to BOTH be ok with it. 





michzz said:


> Sounds great in theory. The problem is that women are able to play that game far longer than a man can--even if they want sex.
> 
> This is what results in weeks then months, then years of sexual drought.


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## Sad_in_NY (Jun 23, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> ...
> ...But that is her choice. She ABSOLUTELY has the right to have sex or not, she does NOT have the right to demand my celibacy. I didn't give her that right and doubt I ever will.
> 
> QUOTE]
> ...


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## Star (Dec 6, 2009)

Sad in NY, be careful about playing emotional mind games, chances are they will backfire and do more damage than good, I would just recommend having an evening alone without the distraction of kids ect and just sit down and have a bit of a heart to heart and discuss how you are feeling and what it is you want/need, maybe she is not fully aware of how her actions are making you feel and that you need to bring this to her attention but in a constructive way.

All the best

Star


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I think the important thing that MEM is driving home, in a sort of manly-man sounding way, is MUTUALITY. 

We have a similar agreement in our marriage and what I call M.U.U.--Mutual United Understanding. We don't do anything unless we both enthusiastically come to an understanding, and that includes our sex life. When I make a decision about how often *I* want sex, it also affects him and thus I don't make a change until we both mutually agree to it. I'm free to discuss it and bring up a change, and we are free to change the understanding--but before the change is made, we recognize that in a marriage, changes by one spouse affect the other spouse...and changes by one spouse need to consider what the affect on the other spouse may be!

One thing I think you might be sort of missing, MEM is the feeling of desperation that arises upon starvation of any type. If a person is extremely hungry, they probably do beg and cling because their life depends on getting some food some how! You don't really "attract" food by backing off and pretending to not really need it. Nor do you really more likelihood of being offered food when you look uninterested in the food being offered.

However, DING right on the money! If you asked for food once and the person said, "I'm sorry, no" or was not interested in giving you food--it really does not endear you to them to keep on begging and begging and getting really desperate. Yes there is a vast, great, empty need but harassment does not usually entice interest! LOL :lol: So Sad_in_NY I think he has a point, don't keep begging from the person who's already said they aren't going to feed you--but I do think it's reasonable to let the person know that's cool (that's their decision to make) but eventually you will starve so you one day look for more steady, dependable food elsewhere.


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## tjohnson (Mar 10, 2010)

I am not sugging complacancy. I have never experienced your level of dissatisfaction and consistant rejection so forgive me if suggesting that you settle for less than what you want. My point is that.

You yourself said. "
My wife and I have discussed at length the differences in our sexual appetites. She sums it simply as "your a guy, I'm a girl". I admit, I have a high sex drive, even at 37 I lust for my wife non-stop. But, I am tired of the rejection...." 

Based on your post it seems like there has always been a dissconect in this area. I am not taking taking her side but, if this has always been the case (even before you got married). Is it a reasonable expectation that this would be improved by marriage and two kids? 

Only you can really understand whether your wife is trully understanding of your situation or if she is just too Lazy (one of the options you did not feel was the case) to address it. 

The suggestions of cooling off may be appropriate as it seems like she responded to your lack of advances. I would agree with others that this could be a good approach. 

Just an observation "I lust for my wife non-stop" comes accross as needy/clingy my guess is that his how you feel (a fruedian slip). I think the "you have physical needs that are not being met" is better phrasiology given what my perception of your situation is.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Important note: This is NOT about communication this is about disrespect and complacency. 

Which is why I think SAD should "start" with the talk you suggested. He needs to create an adrenaline jolt here and that is the ONLY way to do it. 

What I was talking about was sustaining it. The best way to increase the value of anything is to cause a shortage. In this case the thing that has no value is the emotional closeness that comes from sex. So he needs to STOP overloving her or she is going to develop a sexual aversion. And THAT is an ugly thing.

Typically a sexual aversion "feels" like being hugged on a hot summer day - just awful. 





Affaircare said:


> I think the important thing that MEM is driving home, in a sort of manly-man sounding way, is MUTUALITY.
> 
> We have a similar agreement in our marriage and what I call M.U.U.--Mutual United Understanding. We don't do anything unless we both enthusiastically come to an understanding, and that includes our sex life. When I make a decision about how often *I* want sex, it also affects him and thus I don't make a change until we both mutually agree to it. I'm free to discuss it and bring up a change, and we are free to change the understanding--but before the change is made, we recognize that in a marriage, changes by one spouse affect the other spouse...and changes by one spouse need to consider what the affect on the other spouse may be!
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Star,
This is not a game. Giving someone space to breath is good for romance. There is a whole book on this subject "mating in captivity". 

As for the celibacy thing - no game there either. I don't play poker because I don't bluff. 

And this is not about fuuking it is about effort and consideration. Twice in 21 years she has had a pelvic inflammation for 2 months. Nobody could have been nicer or more patient than I was. That was a physical problem. Not indifference.




Star said:


> Sad in NY, be careful about playing emotional mind games, chances are they will backfire and do more damage than good, I would just recommend having an evening alone without the distraction of kids ect and just sit down and have a bit of a heart to heart and discuss how you are feeling and what it is you want/need, maybe she is not fully aware of how her actions are making you feel and that you need to bring this to her attention but in a constructive way.
> 
> All the best
> 
> Star


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

On any given night your partner is in one of three states:
- aroused
- arousable if approached correctly - some like the slow gentle approach, others like an aggressive / dominant approach - you can only find out by asking/experimenting
- not arousable (due to extreme fatigue, hormones, emotional distress)

For us - a typical week looks like this:
- one night she is aroused and initiates
- 3-4 nights she is arousable
- 2-3 nights she is NOT arousable 

We understand each other very well. So I would never approach when she is not arousable. 

On the other nights she is willing to let me warm her up. 

She does not play games - flirt - act interested and then fall asleep. If she did that I would not tolerate it. That is sadistic. 

If she adopted a posture that unless she started out aroused, we weren't going to connect - that would not be acceptable to me. 




tjohnson said:


> I am not sugging complacancy. I have never experienced your level of dissatisfaction and consistant rejection so forgive me if suggesting that you settle for less than what you want. My point is that.
> 
> You yourself said. "
> My wife and I have discussed at length the differences in our sexual appetites. She sums it simply as "your a guy, I'm a girl". I admit, I have a high sex drive, even at 37 I lust for my wife non-stop. But, I am tired of the rejection...."
> ...


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## Star (Dec 6, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> Star,
> This is not a game. Giving someone space to breath is good for romance. There is a whole book on this subject "mating in captivity".
> 
> As for the celibacy thing - no game there either. I don't play poker because I don't bluff.
> ...




MEM11363, I'm giving a woman's perspective on the subject, My suggestion is simply to just cut to the chase of the issue and talk to one another, that's all, lay the the cards on the table and communicate to each other, as you know from threads in the past I'm not a fan of the "detach yourself from her" thing I have been on the receiving end of this type of treatment in the past and guess what? It had the opposite affect that he was hoping for, I honeslty would just rather he had come and talked to me. I have just posted my view so that Sad in NY can get another "perpective" on maybe how to approach his situation and to give a woman's view (as far as I can see it's only men so far) Ultimately he will decide what the best way is to deal with things.

BTW, don't expect praise for being nice and patient with your wife while she had pelvic inflammation, as this should go without saying.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Did you read his initial post. He HAS talked to her about this many times. What is it you think he will gain by having one more "I feel unloved and undesirable" conversation?

As for your situation. No idea. If the guy is behaving in a way you dislike I agree that detaching won't work. But then, if that is the case and you have told him - that is his problem. 

In this case - maybe they should start with her filling out a lovebusters questionnaire. Maybe he is lovebusting in some ways he is unaware of. 




Star said:


> MEM11363, I'm giving a woman's perspective on the subject, My suggestion is simply to just cut to the chase of the issue and talk to one another, that's all, lay the the cards on the table and communicate to each other, as you know from threads in the past I'm not a fan of the "detach yourself from her" thing I have been on the receiving end of this type of treatment in the past and guess what? It had the opposite affect that he was hoping for, I honeslty would just rather he had come and talked to me. I have just posted my view so that Sad in NY can get another "perpective" on maybe how to approach his situation and to give a woman's view (as far as I can see it's only men so far) Ultimately he will decide what the best way is to deal with things.
> 
> BTW, don't expect praise for being nice and patient with your wife while she had pelvic inflammation, as this should go without saying.


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## Star (Dec 6, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> Did you read his initial post. He HAS talked to her about this many times. What is it you think he will gain by having one more "I feel unloved and undesirable" conversation?
> 
> As for your situation. No idea. If the guy is behaving in a way you dislike I agree that detaching won't work. But then, if that is the case and you have told him - that is his problem.
> 
> In this case - maybe they should start with her filling out a lovebusters questionnaire. Maybe he is lovebusting in some ways he is unaware of.


Yes I did read his post, hence why I replied, I just think that by having a talk without distractions around, open a bottle of wine and just be completely open and honest, brutally honest if needs be and that hopefully they can start to resolve the issue that's all, maybe his previous talk was not direct or blunt enough and he "danced" around the issue, I don't know. Believe me I know how hard it is to have to be really blunt about sex with a partner, it's never easy as you don't want to hurt feelings/offend ect but I think that sometimes you just have to tell it like it is.


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## pulse (Mar 24, 2010)

okeydokie said:


> i certainly dont have problems with her doing her things, but dont give me the "too tired" excuse when you find the energy for the other stuff.


So it's all down to what she feels is a priority. Fulfilling the sexual side of the marriage SHOULD be a priority for her - but sometimes it's easier said than done. 

It may sound silly, but I think it's only recently since coming on TAM that I've realised the extent of the strength of feeling and rejection men have about not getting enough sex. If you are the one with the lower sex drive and you've never experienced consistent rejection, it's really hard to appreciate how your partner is feeling so it's essential for men to get the message across. I think if more wives realised this, they would make it a priority to at least reach some sort of acceptable compromise. 

Something along the lines of what Affaircare suggested should drive the message home, along with being honest about how it feels mentally and physically to be rejected, and some do-able suggestion at a mutually agreeable compromise. It also needs to be made clear what's likely to happen if thing don't change - not in a threatening way but just the natural consequences and risks to the marriage.


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

pulse said:


> So it's all down to what she feels is a priority. Fulfilling the sexual side of the marriage SHOULD be a priority for her - but sometimes it's easier said than done.
> 
> It may sound silly, but I think it's only recently since coming on TAM that I've realised the extent of the strength of feeling and rejection men have about not getting enough sex. If you are the one with the lower sex drive and you've never experienced consistent rejection, it's really hard to appreciate how your partner is feeling so it's essential for men to get the message across. I think if more wives realised this, they would make it a priority to at least reach some sort of acceptable compromise.
> 
> Something along the lines of what Affaircare suggested should drive the message home, along with being honest about how it feels mentally and physically to be rejected, and some do-able suggestion at a mutually agreeable compromise. It also needs to be made clear what's likely to happen if thing don't change - not in a threatening way but just the natural consequences and risks to the marriage.


understand that i would like sex to be a priority for her, but it is up to her to make it that way. if she doesnt understand my needs thats on her, i've made them very clear. i have aked her time and time again what she needs and she hasnt ever made it clear. and to confuse it even more, she enjoys sex on the rare occasion it happens


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## 63Vino (Dec 23, 2009)

HI,

I only read your initial post and none of the follow up...purposely.

I can tell you just from my perspective (ended marriage), you could potentially be focused in the wrong area. I hope I dont have to say/explain that the motivation for sex comes from different palces in men and women. Women need much more than the raw drive, it (in my experience) also comes from feeling cared for and about. This could include more effort on your part by taking more involvement in the kids, cleaning, writing love notes, gifts, whatever. Your task may be to find out what really makes her feel cared for. If you askl her she may tell you everything is ok but seldom do people outright say it or even identify it themselves. If you can have a truely OPEN discussion and then you really take action... probably will improve. I know its frustrating cause I have been there but you say your working on it.. that made me chuckle a bit cause you cant work on it yourself and you surely cant "work on it" using your mentality solely. She married you and loves/loved you. You should be able to get back on track. You need to get her to open up and trust that you are sincere. 

Not that women "use" sex as a way to get what they want (which is how many times we perceive it) but rather, the path to romance and physical love is just different for men and women). Figure it out. 

Again...VERY frustrating i know, but it is to be solved because if you dont you will surely become so frustrated to make a mistake or leave altogether. Neither of you want that as believe me that will not relieve the problem, because you will face it again somewhere else. Resolve it with your wife.

Ask her to explain what she needs. Maybe even get one of those workbook or quesionare things if you cant have an open discussion. Find a way to figure out what you can do to make her really think you are for her.

Trust me... she's not playing some game with you.

all the best...hope you get that BJ finished off soon


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## Kobo (May 13, 2010)

63Vino said:


> HI,
> 
> I only read your initial post and none of the follow up...purposely.
> 
> ...



Funny how men never had to figure it out before the ring was put on :rofl: Most will tell you that men bond through sex. So if a man is getting no sex there is no bonding. If a man is not bonded with a woman why would he concern himself with her "emotional needs"? There is no you do this, then get that in a relationship. Both need to document their needs and both spouses need to work on meeting those right off. Not after this, that, and the other.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Star said:


> MEM11363, I'm giving a woman's perspective on the subject, My suggestion is simply to just cut to the chase of the issue and talk to one another, that's all, lay the the cards on the table and communicate to each other, as you know from threads in the past I'm not a fan of the "detach yourself from her" thing I have been on the receiving end of this type of treatment in the past and guess what? It had the opposite affect that he was hoping for, I honeslty would just rather he had come and talked to me.


 Hey Star, I just wanted to say, as a woman, I agree with you, I am another who thinks/feels like you on the Communication thing being what WE need the absolute most, even hard commincation- Raw as it may be. But as always, women are SOOOOOOOOO different, so a man must know what kind of woman he is dealing with to take any of our advice here. We may accually be in the minority, I don't know. 

I do feel what MEM says is also VERY TRUE for many as well, the detaching thing, it would cause many to take "notice"-finally -after all else has failed, when Love, abundant affection, help around the house & patience wasn't doing it. 

I personally agree with Affaircare's hard advice. Sounds like this man has tried everything to no avail. Funny thing is , many times men do not do what would accually work -for their particular woman. 

Luckily, MEM discoverd what worked for his wife. But that kind of thing would NEVER work with me, I would be majorly ticked off, questioning his love & might even fall into the open arms of another who doted on me, who knows. My husband choose to be silent when he was suffering -he did lots of other wonderful things like helping around the house (which meant nothing to me as I am like the enegizer bunny) -where Hard communication should have been his aim -beings he is married to ME, someone who values this above all. But he feared I would leave. Go figure. He should have taken the risk. 

I hope this poster knows his wife well enough to know what kind of action will Light a fire under her A** for change.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Just so everyone gets the frame. Detaching does not start without a conversation that goes something like this. 

I am solely dependent on you for one and only thing which is sex. The lack of it is not acceptable to me. You can explain what you need in order to want to or not. Your choice. If you don't and the freeze continues, I will prioritize you where you are prioritizing me. 

And absent a serious change in behavior THEN you start detaching. Of course the detachment only works IF:
- you ARE a good/great husband and the physical absence of you and the reduced priority you give actually causes distress
- you detach while continuing to project that same upbeat, fun playful thing. Detaching while brooding/being a jerk etc. is not workable. 

As for me - our hill to die on was not sexual. It was solely and completely about a large and growing workload imbalance that made me more and more angry. 

My actual words were something like "I have been asking and asking. I have yelled and screamed. Nothing works. So until you address my grievance I no longer care what is important to you". AFTER you address my issue for a YEAR, we can resume where we left off . Which was that her wants and needs consistently WERE my top priority". 

That single statement accomplished what several years of talking had not. And after a year - I flipped the engage switch back on. During that year my interaction style stayed about the same as always. I simply was not very accommodating. And that was very painful for her because I am normally very happy to go with the flow. 




SimplyAmorous said:


> Hey Star, I just wanted to say, as a woman, I agree with you, I am another who thinks/feels like you on the Communication thing being what WE need the absolute most, even hard commincation- Raw as it may be. But as always, women are SOOOOOOOOO different, so a man must know what kind of woman he is dealing with to take any of our advice here. We may accually be in the minority, I don't know.
> 
> I do feel what MEM says is also VERY TRUE for many as well, the detaching thing, it would cause many to take "notice"-finally -after all else has failed, when Love, abundant affection, help around the house & patience wasn't doing it.
> 
> ...


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

This is a terrific thread and I admit that I have not had time to read every post. To sad_in_ny, believe me I could only wish my sex life was ever a good as yours. But I'm still working on it and all is not lost. 

In my humble opinion, all the well meaning posters are over intellectualizing the situation at hand. There is no way you can know what is going on here. Even statements by the wife herself are suspect. My guess is that these problems originate from some deeply embedded Freudian shame thing that will never see the light of day. But that doesn't mean there can't be improvement.

One should never be disrespectful, but don't underestimate the effectiveness of blowing up, especially if it is genuine, which shouldn't be difficult under the circumstances. You have a lot of options here, but you rule them out due to your clinging to a self image of being a good/nice person. To get what you want, sometime you have to take on risk.


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## Willow (Jun 17, 2010)

Sad-in-NY, I have behaved similarly to your wife in my marriage when our children were younger. There was never any less love towards my husband, but the physical demands of looking after young children is extremely wearing and it can be so hard to switch from mother to lover. I remember vividly days where I had been clung to, puked on, shat on, screamed at and I was so physically burned out that I did just crash at the end of the day. 
Unfortunately my h did not give me the wake up call or seek to resolve his issues with me, and we are now in the awful position that just as I feel we have got clear of the intensive childcare part, and can start to work on us, he has told me that I have destroyed our relationship and he no longer feels the same way about me. I am devastated. So I commend you for acting on this now as you may save your marriage, even though you don't feel its in a good place at the moment. 
What would have helped me would have been some help detaching from being Mom and becoming Me again. I think its great you share the childcare (my h didn't), i would encourage you to make sure she spends her time off doing things that make her feel good. As she gets more of herself back she will be able to give more to you. 
Some women find being a Mother easy, some overwhelming. I am sure your wife loves you, I am sure you will discover a way back to truly being a couple. When you do get intimacy, surprise her a little, up the stakes, different positions, toys, try being more forceful. 
I wish you luck.


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## marga88 (Jun 17, 2010)

Often times women go through hormonal changes which can cause them to have a low sex drive hence the reason for not wanting to have sex.

Also One frequently cited reason that women avoid affection in a marriage is the fear that all physical affection will lead to sex. Even wives who enjoy having sex with their husbands, sometimes desire affection that does not transition into sex.

This is a huge mistake that many guys make.

But the worst part is it sends many undesirable messages to the woman, while it silently destroys her ability to be sexual towards him. And what's frightening is, most women are unaware of what's happening. The only thing she knows is that she doesn't "feel" like having sex with him.

As a rule of thumb, the guy should make an effort to display affection to her without expecting it to lead to some sort of sexual encounter.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Marga,
Totally agree with this. I sucked at that for the first 5 years. Then slowly got better at it. I am persistent - so now I am very good at it - but then my sex drive is lower now as well and that helps.




marga88 said:


> Often times women go through hormonal changes which can cause them to have a low sex drive hence the reason for not wanting to have sex.
> 
> Also One frequently cited reason that women avoid affection in a marriage is the fear that all physical affection will lead to sex. Even wives who enjoy having sex with their husbands, sometimes desire affection that does not transition into sex.
> 
> ...


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## Sad_in_NY (Jun 23, 2010)

I am overwhelmed by the support/advice that I have received. 

Here is an update:

Wednesday night we started having the talk. It started with her bringing it, strangely... The convo went where it always goes - just shy of name calling. She expressed frustration with having this talk with me every month or so and wishes it would go away. I of course told her that I wish our sex life would get better so it would go away. Then we got to a breakthrough of sorts, it turns out I was the only one that thought there was a problem with our sex life! She thinks our sex life is just fine, which is contrary to what she has admitted before. I was in shock and took a step back and realized that I cannot try to fix something between two people that only one person thinks is broken. The discussion ended badly, no cursing, just jabs from her at me in a relatively fragile state. I was broken at this point and reeling. She fell asleep as I brushed my teeth and I pondered our future for the next 2 hours.

Then yesterday AM she wakes up and first words out of her mouth are "I am sorry, I shouldn't have said those things at the end..." Which led to a very mature and healthy discussion. I was a bit more agressive than I was the night before and she was more receptive to it. My wife has always had issues accepting "guilt", to her it is like getting a disease. It makes her do and say silly things. Perhaps it is cuz she is the oldest child or something, who knows. She accepted her role in the problem and agreed that she needs to be part of the solution. We sat down and dicussed the elements that we want to improve our sex life "Frequency and Fun" we called them the "2 Fs". Oddly she even finished a sentence for me when she said "I don't think our sex life is that bad, it's not like we have sex once every 3 months" and I said "I know, but we used to have sex 3 times per week, then it became once per week, then once every two weeks, it will be once a month soon, so when it gets to once every 3 months..." she jumped in and said "you're right, by then it's too late". 

I know that this a good first step, but that's all that this is. We have put a "plan" together to help us out of this. Communication will be a HUGE part of it. And truthfully, I am only 50/50 on its success. But, we are at least talking about it and tackling a problem that WE created, together. I still think that profesional help is what we need. 

Thanks to everyone!


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

i am happy for you that at least some progress is being made. i do find it difficult to believe that an intelligent and healthy person would truly believe that infrequent intimacy is ok and everything is fine, especially when they KNOW their partner isnt exactly fullflled.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Great job. There is a very logical next step and it is actually simple to describe, requires some effort to execute. 

In a very concise manner you tell her that it is totally natural for her to be in "neutral" some nights and "unavailable" other nights. 

You are looking for her to find 2 nights a week where she is "neutral" and show her commitment by teaching you how to get her from "neutral" to aroused. Once she is aroused, then sexual contact is fun and not "icky". 

Maybe it starts with a massage, maybe it frankly starts with an honest to God - friendly - wrestling match on the bed. You might be surprised what starts her motor. But whatever it is it is up to HER to teach YOU how to initiate when she starts out in neutral. Do NOT let her make this a guessing game for you. That is a mind fuvk. 

UNLESS she teaches you to do this, you will get at best a temporary improvement. Because she will NEVER start out aroused as often as you want. She just isn't wired that way. 

If you let her squirm out of this conversation - you will fail. So you have set the table perfectly - she is aware the problem is real, and she has a responsibility to help fix it. Now finish the job by showing her specifically HOW to proceed.

If a glass of wine or two helps her relax - that is fine. Don't be offended. 

I would say that 80%-90% of the time when we have sex my W starts out in neutral. She and I are both totally cool with that. If we were limited to just when she was aroused - we would be ex-spouses by now. I put 100% into my marriage and would simply not have tolerated that mindset. 




Sad_in_NY said:


> I am overwhelmed by the support/advice that I have received.
> 
> Here is an update:
> 
> ...


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## tjohnson (Mar 10, 2010)

Sounds like you may have made some progress. Agree with okeydokie that what you told her should be somewhat self-evident. I would not rule out her witholding sex as some kind of power-play. I know i will be blasted by some but, lets be real, women have been known to hold back as a subconsience or otherwise way to manipulate. That said at least she admitted that there is a problem.

Since you did not get the "well I don't feel like having sex when you don't IE listen to me, pick up after yourself etc. Then that issue has been ruled out. 

I would agree with mark t (i believe it was him) that suggested distancing yourself should the problem not be resolved to you satisfaction. It would seem like you have tried and done the "being the good husband/father thing and she doesn't have issues there unless you are not sharing that part of the conversation. 

I would still make it more a manly issue of "your needs are not being met" than some need to connect. This has a more subtle implication that your needs could be met somewhere else. Not suggesting threatening a girl on the side or divorce but, you are stating a fact. Hormones and sex drives a given, there is a certain duty/obligation that you meet eachothers needs in this area. It is not only reasonable but, I believe it is a legal obligation. This makes the need more widely accepted and therefore irrefutable.


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