# Homeschooled morality.



## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

I was dropping my 15 yr old DD and her new friend off at Timmy Ho's the other day with my son up front with me when I overheard my D's friend say jokingly 'We were bugging mom last night about going out to see her boyfriend. She said she was going out shopping but we always know when she's going to see him.' 

Not wanting to jump to conclusions, I asked 'Who's we?'

She answered 'Me and my sisters'

I said 'Oh yeah, are your parents divorced?'

She said 'Not yet, but they're getting one'

I said 'I'm sorry to hear that.'

She said 'Oh that's OK. Dad doesn't want to but mom says he's too clingy'

I asked 'Are they still living together?'

She said 'No, and Dad's gotta go back up north to work' 

They were just getting out of the vehicle so I didn't have time to ask any other questions. Not sure what else I would have asked anyway.

Driving on with my 16 yr old son, I said 'That's pretty sad.'

He said 'What do you think she meant by too clingy?'

I said 'He's probably doing everything he can right now to hold his family together. Pretty tough to do when your wife has a boyfriend'

My boy turned to look at me and said 'Marriage is a crap shoot, isn't it?'

My response was to give him King David's quote 'If a man steals your wife there is no better revenge than to let him keep her'.

He just nodded. 

He's a quiet, thoughtful kid. But he would have asked if he didn't understand.

Now I'm just trying to figure out how to repeat the conversation with my daughter.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Oh, dear.

And their mother is teaching their kids that lying is the way forward.

One day she'll say: "When have I ever lied to you, kids?"

And they'll tell her.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

Exactly where my head went Matt.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Wow. This sounds like one of those teachable moments that parents probably dread. It also sounds like this woman is teaching her own children all the wrong things about marriage.

Maybe start w/ something like...

"I need you to understand that what your friend's mother is doing is wrong. Marriage means a lot of things, and one of those things is no boyfriends or girlfriends for either Mom or Dad.

Now... what goes on in their family is none of our business and I'm not looking to get involved in any way, but still -- I need you to know that it's wrong."

...and go from there. You'll probably also wind up saying "That doesn't matter" quite a bit.

Maybe also do what you can to limit the time that your daughter spends w/ this new friend, especially at her house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

Thanks for the thoughtful suggestions Gus, though at this point I don't think I would try to limit the time my daughter spends with any of her friends. I think she'd see me as being judgmental 'without even knowing them' and it would probably have the opposite effect. I've watched how she works within her social group, some of whom are utterly attention crazy and who, despite coming from seemingly happy nuclear families, have learned to Tarzan through the forest of willing boys. Her reaction has been the opposite. The thought that a boy might want to use her for 'just one thing' is repellent to her. She's on only her second boyfriend (the quarterback at her highschool) and is still a virgin. I can tell the boy's confused, but my daughter's sticking to her guns. I'm not too worried about him trying to force the issue. She's a brown belt in kickboxing.

Also, I'd feel pretty crappy about doing that to this girl. She's a sweet young thing and seems more confused than anything. My D has a very strong sense of right and wrong and it's probably good for the kid to hang out with her.

I think my biggest concern is that once she does give herself fully to a boy, she's not going to know how to deal with him pulling the same kind of crap that this woman is pulling on her husband. 

It was an easy conversation with my son because I'd already given him MMSLP to read after he'd been friend zoned by a couple of girls. It was extremely effective.

I just don't want to see her trashed by a romantic vision of love that may not have anything to do with the reality of the situation.


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## tpdallas (Aug 28, 2015)

lostmyreligion said:


> Thanks for the thoughtful suggestions Gus, though at this point I don't think I would try to limit the time my daughter spends with any of her friends. I think she'd see me as being judgmental 'without even knowing them' and it would probably have the opposite effect. I've watched how she works within her social group, some of whom are utterly attention crazy and who, despite coming from seemingly happy nuclear families, have learned to Tarzan through the forest of willing boys. Her reaction has been the opposite. The thought that a boy might want to use her for 'just one thing' is repellent to her. She's on only her second boyfriend (the quarterback at her highschool) and is still a virgin. I can tell the boy's confused, but my daughter's sticking to her guns. I'm not too worried about him trying to force the issue. She's a brown belt in kickboxing.
> 
> Also, I'd feel pretty crappy about doing that to this girl. She's a sweet young thing and seems more confused than anything. My D has a very strong sense of right and wrong and it's probably good for the kid to hang out with her.
> 
> ...


I'd feel guilty too. I don't like to give other people's kids the 3rd degree over their parents marriage. Once I would have established there was no physical danger I'd back off.

You know how mama bears are.


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## EnigmaGirl (Feb 7, 2015)

> Wow. This sounds like one of those teachable moments that parents probably dread. It also sounds like this woman is teaching her own children all the wrong things about marriage.
> 
> Maybe start w/ something like...
> 
> ...


Wow, I totally disagree with this. This is absolutely not the right thing to do. This OP has zero idea about what this woman is teaching her children.

Children paraphrase all the time...you know nothing about what the actual situation is. If these people are separated, this woman is perfectly well within her rights to date. And maybe saying "dad is too controlling" is what she said to her own child to soften the blow about something more serious that was going on. You have no idea and its not your place to involve yourself in other people's marital issues. I really don't understand why people feel the need to get nosy in other people's private issues. You have zero idea about what conversations are going on between this mother and her children and whether or not she's conducting herself appropriately. And its not your business to know. These are her children and she has the right to mother them as SHE sees fit. Your version of morality isn't necessarily the correct one...especially since you don't know the whole story.

How would you feel if someone got involved with your marital issues or advised your children this way? If you have any concerns, you should be talking to the adults...not giving advice to children that are not yours about their mother doing something wrong. Completely inappropriate.

If you're concerned about your own minor daughter, you have every right to make decisions about who she spends time with and you can certainly talk to her about whatever you please.



> Also, I'd feel pretty crappy about doing that to this girl. She's a sweet young thing and seems more confused than anything. My D has a very strong sense of right and wrong and it's probably good for the kid to hang out with her.
> 
> I think my biggest concern is that once she does give herself fully to a boy, she's not going to know how to deal with him pulling the same kind of crap that this woman is pulling on her husband.
> 
> ...


Lofty.

Sorry but I totally disagree with your assessment. This is soooo not your place and it seems really intrusive and nosy to me. Based on this conversation, you are operating from zero data to make such an assessment. If they're separated and working on a divorce...then so be it...you don't know that this woman is doing anything wrong.

I can tell you that if you interfered with my kid this way, I'd be livid.

Its perfectly normal for kids to be confused in divorce situations...its a transition time and these parents deserve the right to direct their own children as THEY see fit with all the facts...not according to your version of right and wrong. This is not your child and you have no idea what's actually going on. If you want to call the adult mother and discuss your concerns...then have the maturity to talk adult to adult but do not warp another parent's child's mind and perspective without permission from that parent.

These people are in the middle of a marital breakdown and have the right to privacy and have the right to handle in a way that they see fit. If you're seriously concerned about this child...then call her mother and have an adult conversation with her.


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## Be smart (Feb 22, 2015)

This is sad. I feel sorry for the kids,they will grow up in such bad environment.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

lostmyreligion said:


> I was dropping my 15 yr old DD and her new friend off at Timmy Ho's the other day with my son up front with me when I overheard my D's friend say jokingly 'We were bugging mom last night about going out to see her boyfriend. She said she was going out shopping but we always know when she's going to see him.'
> 
> Not wanting to jump to conclusions, I asked 'Who's we?'
> 
> ...





EnigmaGirl said:


> Wow, I totally disagree with this. This is absolutely not the right thing to do. This OP has zero idea about what this woman is teaching her children.
> 
> Children paraphrase all the time...you know nothing about what the actual situation is. If these people are separated, this woman is perfectly well within her rights to date. And maybe saying "dad is too controlling" is what she said to her own child to soften the blow about something more serious that was going on. You have no idea and its not your place to involve yourself in other people's marital issues. I really don't understand why people feel the need to get nosy in other people's private issues. You have zero idea about what conversations are going on between this mother and her children and whether or not she's conducting herself appropriately. And its not your business to know. These are her children and she has the right to mother them as SHE sees fit. Your version of morality isn't necessarily the correct one...especially since you don't know the whole story.
> 
> ...


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## thebirdman (Apr 5, 2014)

GusPolinski said:


> Maybe also do what you can to limit the time that your daughter spends w/ this new friend, especially at her house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exercise caution in this area. I remember my parents established a rule along this line regarding the neighbor kids, who's family life was a little disastrous. Not the kids fault of course.
Only thing it ever taught me was that my parents thought they were better than the people who lived next door.
Only thing it ever taught the neighbor kids was that my parents were stuck up jerks.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

EnigmaGirl said:


> Wow, I totally disagree with this. This is absolutely not the right thing to do. This OP has zero idea about what this woman is teaching her children.
> 
> Children paraphrase all the time...you know nothing about what the actual situation is. If these people are separated, this woman is perfectly well within her rights to date. And maybe saying "dad is too controlling" is what she said to her own child to soften the blow about something more serious that was going on. You have no idea and its not your place to involve yourself in other people's marital issues. I really don't understand why people feel the need to get nosy in other people's private issues. You have zero idea about what conversations are going on between this mother and her children and whether or not she's conducting herself appropriately. And its not your business to know. These are her children and she has the right to mother them as SHE sees fit. Your version of morality isn't necessarily the correct one...especially since you don't know the whole story.
> 
> ...


Blah blah blah

Blah blah blah

Blah blah blah blah blah

This woman's children are poking fun at the obviousness of her deceit in carrying on an adulterous relationship w/ her boyfriend, a person that shouldn't even exist as far as they're concerned, all the while listening as she passes off her husband -- and their father -- as "too clingy".

This tells me pretty much everything that anyone would need or want to know about what she's teaching them.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

thebirdman said:


> Exercise caution in this area. I remember my parents established a rule along this line regarding the neighbor kids, who's family life was a little disastrous. Not the kids fault of course.
> Only thing it ever taught me was that my parents thought they were better than the people who lived next door.
> Only thing it ever taught the neighbor kids was that my parents were stuck up jerks.


When I was younger, more often that not, Dad was busy w/ work (or whatever), leaving Mom to deal w/ the majority of kid stuff for my younger brother and I. This included "screening" friends, their parents, etc, and certain friends just didn't make the cut. She was never really apparent about it, at least not in a forward way, but I think my brother and I sensed something was up. Obviously, being kids, we didn't really understand it.

Around the time that I was 12 or 13, Mom got a bit lax, I suppose, and our circle of friends started to include kids that _probably_ wouldn't have "made the cut" just a year or so prior to that.

Looking back, it probably would've been better all around if Mom had been a bit more vigilant.


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## thebirdman (Apr 5, 2014)

While you can't blame a kid for their parents bad behavior, it is hard to understand the value of choosing your friends as a kid; something mom and dad usually know a little something about. 
I can relate to your example Gus. While I always found (and still do) the background from my previous post a little absurd as those were actually relatively decent kids, there were some characters we hung around that I probably wouldn't want my kids hanging around, mostly because they participated in things like drugs or petty larceny.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

thebirdman said:


> While you can't blame a kid for their parents bad behavior, it is hard to understand the value of choosing your friends as a kid; something mom and dad usually know a little something about.
> I can relate to your example Gus. While I always found (and still do) the background from my previous post a little absurd as those were actually relatively decent kids, there were some characters we hung around that I probably wouldn't want my kids hanging around, mostly because *they participated in things like drugs or petty larceny.*


It was worse than that.

And it wasn't always the _kids_ doing anything.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Blah blah blah
> 
> Blah blah blah
> 
> ...


This is why I hang out on CWI. 
Thanks for the brutal clarity Gus. It always clears away the smog.:smile2:


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

lostmyreligion said:


> I was dropping my 15 yr old DD and her new friend off at Timmy Ho's the other day with my son up front with me when I overheard my D's friend say jokingly 'We were bugging mom last night about going out to see her boyfriend. She said she was going out shopping but we always know when she's going to see him.'
> 
> Not wanting to jump to conclusions, I asked 'Who's we?'
> 
> ...


Being a dumb male I usually just blunder in with a direct question, eg
What did you think about the conversation in the car with your friend?
Some times that was all it took to get my daughter to open up, discuss and ask questions. Some things my D doesn't want to talk about it to me, but W later says they talked about it. 
Of course you most likely can't repeat the conversation. After all your daughter and son are probably very different. But just try to get her to open up, don't pre-judge, listen more that talk. 
I find silence and cryptic secret remarks between parents the worst, as that is what I got as a child.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

GusPolinski said:


> Maybe also do what you can to limit the time that your daughter spends w/ this new friend, especially at her house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_





thebirdman said:


> Exercise caution in this area. I remember my parents established a rule along this line regarding the neighbor kids, who's family life was a little disastrous. Not the kids fault of course.
> Only thing it ever taught me was that my parents thought they were better than the people who lived next door.
> Only thing it ever taught the neighbor kids was that my parents were stuck up jerks.


Gus, Birdman - I can understand and appreciate the sentiment in suggesting I vet my kids friends as well as cautioning against it. But all three of them have done an excellent job of doing that for themselves. There isn't a one of their friends that I don't like - and therein lies the problem.

As a family we're really tight. We still sit down to dinner (at the table) together 4-5 times a week. What we talk about runs the gamut from the mundane (_How was your day?_) to the somewhat bizarre (_OK, I can understand Jabba keeping Leia as a slave on a chain, but why the hell would a giant alien slug find it necessary to dress her in a sexy, skimpy outfit?_). The one rule that we all abide by in any interaction between us, at the dinner table or elsewhere, is dignity and respect. There's very few anger-raised-voices, never any yelling or name calling and the kids have never seen or heard their mother and I engage in hallway sex.

Per my previous comment, this friend seems like a really sweet kid. If I thought she might be a negative influence it would actually provide an opening for me to start a conversation with D regarding hanging with her. 

The difficulty is in that my D has a deeply ingrained, very romantic vision of what an exclusive relationship should be. It's lovely and all, but my fear is that she's going to have to go through an emotional beating like this girl's father before truly embracing what my S understood immediately in my silly King David 'let him keep her' quote regarding self respect over self deception in service to an ideal.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

lostmyreligion said:


> Gus, Birdman - I can understand and appreciate the sentiment in suggesting I vet my kids friends as well as cautioning against it. But all three of them have done an excellent job of doing that for themselves. There isn't a one of their friends that I don't like - and therein lies the problem.
> 
> As a family we're really tight. We still sit down to dinner (at the table) together 4-5 times a week. What we talk about runs the gamut from the mundane (_How was your day?_) to the somewhat bizarre (_OK, I can understand Jabba keeping Leia as a slave on a chain, but why the hell would a giant alien slug find it necessary to dress her in a sexy, skimpy outfit?_). The one rule that we all abide by in any interaction between us, at the dinner table or elsewhere, is dignity and respect. There's very few anger-raised-voices, never any yelling or name calling and the kids have never seen or heard their mother and I engage in hallway sex.
> 
> ...


I wanted to like this a dozen times, especially the 2nd paragraph with frequent open respectful conversations.

So now I think my only issue is I misunderstood your question about how to repeat the conversation with your daughter. Now it sounds like how do you get your daughter to learn some of the wisdom your son demonstrated. And I can't give an answer to that. My best idea is to trust in their upbringing and continue as is. So keep talking. You can't guarantee the future, but I think it will be OK.

Like you I also worry my daughter has a romantic life view. However recently I have been amazed at how well my daughter has handled issues life has thrown at her. She has answered problems that I didn't give her the answers to. 

I think maybe a small dose of seeing divorce / infidelity etc, from a distance, innoculates those people who have a strong enough core emotional intelligence. It is an antidote to being too romatic.


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## lostmyreligion (Oct 18, 2013)

NotEasy said:


> I wanted to like this a dozen times, especially the 2nd paragraph with frequent open respectful conversations.
> 
> So now I think my only issue is I misunderstood your question about how to repeat the conversation with your daughter. Now it sounds like how do you get your daughter to learn some of the wisdom your son demonstrated. And I can't give an answer to that. My best idea is to trust in their upbringing and continue as is. So keep talking. You can't guarantee the future, but I think it will be OK.
> 
> ...


Perfect NE.

"_Hormesis is a biological phenomenon whereby a beneficial effect (improved health, stress tolerance, growth or longevity) results from exposure to low doses of an agent that is otherwise toxic or lethal when given at higher doses._"

The old adage that what doesn't kill you....

She's already a pretty strong kid. Realistically, all I can do as a father is hope that what she's learned at home will see her through the serious heartache that seems statistically bound to happen later and be there for her when it does.

Though maybe I'll see if I can get her to read NMMNG.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

lostmyreligion said:


> Perfect NE.
> 
> "_Hormesis is a biological phenomenon whereby a beneficial effect (improved health, stress tolerance, growth or longevity) results from exposure to low doses of an agent that is otherwise toxic or lethal when given at higher doses._"
> 
> ...


Is there a version of NMMNG aimed at females? Doubt it matters though. Reading it should be good for her. And probably it will throw up good questions that she will ask.

Growing up my daughter had several classmates and friends with divorced parents. At first it worried me, as I don't recall any from my childhood. Then I realised that just means it was being hidden from me. I only learnt about divorce in history and statistics class. Her environment was much healthier. But having said that I don't know how I would have reacted to a friends mother pursuing boyfriends while still married. Hopefully trust my daughter.

The thing that worried me most during my daughter's childhood was friends and parents who were so into materialism. The mentality of "You are not worthy because you don't"... drive the latest european SUV, have a holiday beach house or two, take round the world trip etc etc. That is more contagious than having divorce parents.

_Hormesis _seems like a good word of the day, but I keep thinking it is Hornysis.


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## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

And in a quick thread-jack: What is meaning of the thread title?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

lostmyreligion said:


> The difficulty is in that my D has a deeply ingrained, very romantic vision of what an exclusive relationship should be.* It's lovely and all, but my fear is that she's going to have to go through an emotional beating like this girl's father before truly embracing what my S understood immediately *in my silly King David 'let him keep her' quote regarding self respect over self deception in service to an ideal.


You apparently have no idea what is really going on in their marriage.

You are assuming that the mother is the bad guy, or the only bad guy in that marriage.

For all you know their father cheated like crazy, was a horrible husband, etc. Being 'too clingy' could mean that he was extremely controlling and emotionally abusive. Not wanting a divorce is no proof that anyone (man or woman) is not at great fault and/or not a horrible spouse.

You have no idea, but that does not stop you from branding her bad and her husband a poor victim. 

That's a pretty biases jump to conclusion. Then to teach your son to make such a jump is not a good idea.


They are separated and going through a divorce. In the USA today, dating during the divorce is pretty normal. We have people here on TAM who do it all the time and are cheered on to do it.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> You apparently have no idea what is really going on in their marriage.
> 
> You are assuming that the mother is the bad guy, or the only bad guy in that marriage.
> 
> ...


...and yet she's lying about her trysts w/ her boyfriend.

Yeah, seems legit.


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