# Help - BPD? Considering an exit :(



## helpahubby (Jul 27, 2015)

Hi everyone,

I have never sought advice on relationships previously, I am usually pretty good at figuring out what is going on in my life, relationships have ups and downs and I don't want whomever I might seek advice from to have a tainted view of my wife.

Let me start by saying that she means everything to me, we have a wonderful son and a good (in my opinion life). I work long weeks and my wife doesn't have to work, something she always told me she wanted to be the case.

We have been together for approximately 10 years, married for nearly half that. We live in a house which we own ourselves and although tight, money is not a real issue. We are comfortable (thank goodness).

So, here goes:

I met my wife 10 years ago, we are from very different backgrounds. I am from a stable and relatively comfortable background, not always stable (dad had an affair and moved out for a year).

My wife comes from a home where her mother was aggressive towards her father and ended up cheating on him, they divorced.

We dated for about 6 months and everything was great, moved in together and for the first few months things were still good.

Then things changed.

From memory, the first time that I remember a big arguement was probably down to too much wine. To be honest, I can't even remember what sparked it off. My abiding memory is hiding in the bathroom whilst she tried to get in with a kitchen knife....

That was an extreme example and has not happened (to that extent) since.

I am in no way perfect, let me get that out there now.

I work too hard, and at times I drink too much. I always (in my mind) have the best of intentions but I am aware that I could perhaps do more around the house and with my son. She tells me that I am a "dad in a million" but an awful husband.

She has hit me, slapped me, embarrassed me, I have once (complete disclosure here) pushed her away (onto the bed) when she became too violent. I have left the house each time she has done that, not because of her hurting me, but to ensure that I treat her like a lady and to prevent any damage to the house etc.

So onto more recent times.

She flies off the handle for reasons unknown, the most recent one was that we decided to buy some new furniture for our living room, I was making it and she decided to have a nap. Not a problem, I said head upstairs and I won't disturb you with any noise 

Again, that was wrong, I should have stopped what I was doing and joined her, thus ensues shouting, screaming, threats of divorce, "take your **** and get out"......just because I was half way through something and wanted to get it finished at the weekend so that at 7pm when I get home (during the week) I dont have to worry about it.

The smallest little thing makes her fly off the handle, this is just a very small representation of my life, I haven't outlined more incase she see's this and recognises what I am saying...my life would then be even worse.

My close friends are telling me that she is behaving in an unaccepteable way...as are some of my family (if only they knew the full extent).

She's started to shout at our son for no reason, her temper is getting beyond a joke.

I know she'll never hurt him so thats not a concern, however I dont think that he should grow up thinking that its normal to fight and row all the time.

We haven't been intimate for goodness knows how long.

I still love her, she has visions that the grass is always greener. She doesn't have a bad life, we've been on holiday for 8 weeks this year (used all my lieu time).

I am at a loss, I love this woman, she is my life, but she's making it miserable...!

So now we are at a point where we are going to have a talk about the future, I can't help but wonder if she'd be better off without me.....but then I fear that my son will be in a house full of cigarette smoke and fist fights (if she moves back home to her mothers house)


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I'm so sorry dude.

I remember a time with wife #1 where she would throw pots and pans at my head, shriek at the top of her lungs, and one time after slapping me about 5 times I pushed her down into a chair, gently but firmly, to get away from her.

She threatened to call the cops.

All I can say buddy is get you and your kid the hell outta there. Document everything (record some voice/video clips on your phone if possible), let the police know the scoop so she can't turn it around on you, and just go.


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## helpahubby (Jul 27, 2015)

Thanks for the replies thus far everyone.

The "problem" is that she is amazing with our son (apart from the odd shouting fit at him). She was told she'd never have kids and now we are blessed, I dont know how I could ever take him away from her, especially as I know that no matter how frustrated she gets that she'd never hurt him.

I know that she is not a bad person, she really isn't.

She wants out, I know that will be detrimental to all of us if she goesthrough with it. I'm trying everything I can to stop it but at the same time I am aware that she is unhappy and that she is making me miserable.

I really am stuck between a rock and a hard place :/


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

helpahubby said:


> Thanks for the replies thus far everyone.
> 
> The "problem" is that she is amazing with our son (apart from the odd shouting fit at him). She was told she'd never have kids and now we are blessed, I dont know how I could ever take him away from her, especially as I know that no matter how frustrated she gets that she'd never hurt him.


No she isn't.

She's dangerous and you know it or you wouldn't have posted here.

She chased you with a knife, buddy. After you didn't leave when she escalated.

She is on the same path with your kid.


> I know that she is not a bad person, she really isn't.


You cannot judge her has a person, but you can judge her behaviour.

And her behaviour is dangerous, toxic, and detrimental to you and your children.


> She wants out, I know that will be detrimental to all of us if she goesthrough with it. I'm trying everything I can to stop it but at the same time I am aware that she is unhappy and that she is making me miserable.
> 
> I really am stuck between a rock and a hard place :/


Let her go.

Trust me. Just let her go.

If she goes, gets her stuff sorted out, and comes back... maybe.

You fighting to keep her is just escalating things.


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

She sounds bat sh!t crazy. If you leave, do you think she'll harm your son to punish you? Get some wireless nanny cams that upload to the cloud. Shouldn't be illegal in the public areas of your house. They need to be cloud connected so she can't destroy evidence. 

Get a voice activated recorder and keep it on you at all times. If she has a tirade, especially at your child get out your phone and record it. 

Get counseling to find out why you would love and make excuses for a violent, abusive person. She's NOT a good mom.


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## life_huppens (Jun 3, 2015)

I understand that you love her, but the thing is, she will not get better with time, only worst, and I am not sure if therapy can really help if she does not see that she has a problem. Does she acknowledges her anger problem? If not, I think it will be better for you and your kid to maintain distance from her. In this situation your kid can be traumatized for life, like your wife is. Do you want this? Think about it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ShameLessLover (Nov 5, 2013)

I am waiting for Uptown to post on this thread! 

How do you know she has BPD traits?


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## helpahubby (Jul 27, 2015)

Vulcan2013 said:


> She sounds bat sh!t crazy. If you leave, do you think she'll harm your son to punish you?


Most definately not, she has never laid a hand on him, her shouting at him is something which is new and is probably simply caused by frustration. She loves him and would never see any harm come to him.



life_huppens said:


> Does she acknowledges her anger problem?_Posted via Mobile Device_


She knows when she goes too far, certainly she acknowledged it when the knife incident occured previously. She promised that'd never happen again, and it hasn't. 



ShameLessLover said:


> I am waiting for Uptown to post on this thread!
> 
> How do you know she has BPD traits?


I don't "know" that she has BPD traits (hence the question mark in the subject), however after having reviewed many threads posted by Uptown I have come to the conclusion that she fills most of the criteria. It doesn't mean she definately has it, just, that in my opinion "the cap fits. Even down to these episodes happening at the end (or during good times). One of her most recent ones resulted in a family member asking "Why does she always have to spoil a lovely day?".

There is never any way to reach a compromise with her, she is always telling me that I "never do this" or she "always does this" which is not true.

I try and voice an opinion and I am told that "Oh so I am not allowed an opinion then?". I try to explain that everyone is entitled to an opinion, and that sometimes ours just differ. I then suggest that "lets agree to disagree and move on". This is not an option.

She's admitted previously that she is just "waiting for things to go wrong, good things don't happen to her and they always go wrong". Maybe this is one of the causes and its not BPD, or maybe this is linked to BPD? I am no expert, I don't know.

Maybe she is just an insane, moody, (v.occasionally violent toward me) control freak who enjoys making me walk on egg shells but is always the victim, maybe she is just full of anger which simmers below the surface waiting to explode, maybe she enjoys being critical of me and my family, maybe I am using the potential for BPD as an excuse for her, I don't know.

She is also incredibly jealous of anything and anyone, highly impulsive and this has caused her to both lose friends and family members.

As with any situation like this, there is much more to it than could ever be written - so many details which I am sure that I have forgotten.

Last night she was lovely, went home and sat her down to talk to her.

Then I was put in an imposssible situation, I asked what she wanted to do. She said, she doesn't care what she wants to do. I asked her to elaborate, she said that she will just "squash all her feelings and nod and smile". 

I then went on to ask what she wanted to do about that marriage, she simply nodded and smiled and said "this is the new me, I don't want confrontation".

I really don't know what to make of all this :/


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

HAB, I grew up with a Fu**up mum like your wife. It was not uncommon for us kids to hide when she went batsh** crazy. I grew up waiting for the bomb to explode. Anything good or happy happening means in a while she would go crazy. All of our family knew but no one did anything. As I grew older I spent all my free time at my grandma's brother house miles away. Away from the insanity of my home.

I hated my father for not leaving her, I loved her but hated her more. Afraid that one day she is going to turn on me and she did. I was afraid of her. I knew her as the woman who would scream and shout and say the most awful things. The woman who knock us down and punched and kicked us. The woman who tried to stab my father. We could never do anything well to please her, my dad became less than a man with her. He started to stay away from home, so he didn't have to deal with her. Guess who had to deal with her.

If you think she is not harming your child think again. He knows what his mother is doing. He is watching and waiting for her to explode. He is waiting for you to save him from all the uncertainty of your wife's craziness. 

Your wife's new behavior is just a manipulative technique to get you to back off. She does not want to change, in a few days she will be back to her old ways. You are addicted to all the dramas of your life, the highs and lows. 

Do you know how many years it too me to trust happiness and good things? I have never acted like your wife. I never wanted my life to be so toxic and damaging. My husband and I created a home where our children are safe and protected. A home they can bring their friends to and our home is always filled with kids. We are the go to house for all their friends. 

In a few years your son is going to be older, can he bring friends over or will he try to hide the truth of what home is really like. Please figure out what you are going to do. You son is awaiting your decision.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Just another though- does she bring up the jealousy thing a lot and do you fight about it constantly? She accuses you of cheating on her?

I don't mean so talk so much, but your post brings up so many repressed memories and emotions. I keep reading it and maybe I am projecting my story but it's like reading the story of my life when I was little. 

Stop protecting your wife, she is an adult with the ability to know right from wrong. Yet she keeps doing the same things over and over again.

Protect yourself and child.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

helpahubby said:


> I know she'll never hurt him so thats not a concern, however I dont think that he should grow up thinking that its normal to fight and row all the time.


You actually contradict yourself and you're in some serious denial. If you see the initial flags it won't take much at all for your "never" abusive wife to decide she is going to punish your son, maybe for something very slight. With BPD (if she is in fact BPD) it does not take much at all for her switch to go off and for her angel son to become a demon in her eyes. So, even if you think she'll never hurt him just because right NOW he hasn't done any wrong, just wait until he does something that flips that switch. She is showing him through her behavior that it is acceptable to fight and to take her aggression out on you over small things. Your son will come to learn that a.) you won't do anything about it and that b.) it's acceptable for her to treat you (or anyone else) that way, since you'll do nothing about it.

So, I encourage you to try to take that frosted veil off of your face and accept that anything can and will happen unless you take decided efforts for things to turn out differently. Posting here is already your form of admitting that there is a serious issue. Don't wait for the worst to happen before you will ACT.


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## helpahubby (Jul 27, 2015)

brooklynAnn said:


> Just another though- does she bring up the jealousy thing a lot and do you fight about it constantly? She accuses you of cheating on her?


Whats interesting is that its not the usual type of jealousy (as in my relationships with others). Its more along the lines of "Blah Blah takes the day off for their wife to spend time with them" or "Blah blah can always just go and buy new things without having to check the bank". I think with her she genuinely thinks that the grass is always greener.



> I don't mean so talk so much, but your post brings up so many repressed memories and emotions. I keep reading it and maybe I am projecting my story but it's like reading the story of my life when I was little.
> 
> Stop protecting your wife, she is an adult with the ability to know right from wrong. Yet she keeps doing the same things over and over again.
> 
> Protect yourself and child.


I think you are all right, I think that I can acknowledge that there is a problem and I just would like to see if their is any logic to how she is acting, if these things are common and to get some support before making my choice. 

There will be boundaries set tonight and consequences if they are not adhered to (as in shape up or ship out, or lets go to marriage counselling or perhaps she should go to individual counselling).

I am sure that you all think that this is futile, however I (maybe she doesn't) really value marriage and I want to work on it to ensure that it isn't thrown away. 

I am sure you all think I am in denial or dependant on her, to a certain extent I tend to agree, I just can't shake the feeling that the woman I met is still inside there somewhere and that there must be something I can do to bring her back.



Satya said:


> You actually contradict yourself and you're in some serious denial.
> 
> So, I encourage you to try to take that frosted veil off of your face and accept that anything can and will happen unless you take decided efforts for things to turn out differently. Posting here is already your form of admitting that there is a serious issue. Don't wait for the worst to happen before you will ACT.


Its getting to the time for action, I am scared of leaving her, the marital home and to be honest figuring out a way to get custody of my son if I do leave her.

This is my biggest worry.

Her mum is a heavy smoker who smokes indoors and has no room for my wife to stay, let alone with the baby. 

My wife won't want to stay in the marital home, even though she is welcome to do so. 

Now you all have me worried that she needs to be supervised its making me think maybe I should stay with her even more.

She puts up an extremely good front, so much so that nobody would think that she is anything apart from an angel, no court in the land will give me (a father who travels internationally for 8 weeks of the year) custody surely?


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

I can understand your ambivalence but while you are trying to see if your wife will get help. Start making your exit plan.

Get the VAR that these guys on TAM are always talking about. Keep it in your pocket when you are home. Start gathering your evidence.

The only option if she does not get help is divorce and full custody of your son.

Look at your support structure. Your family, is there your mum or sisters/cousin who your son can stay with your son while you travel. Can you pay for someone to stay at home with him when you are away? Can you take him with you and hire a sitter? Look at all these option before you say you cant care for your son.

Please don't let your wife get custody of your son if she does not get help. This is not about taking care of your wife. This is about taking care of your child. You need to open your eyes and see this. 

Why are you allowing your wife to get away with so much bad behavior and all you think about is taking care of her. Who is going to watch out for your child? Man open your eyes see the trees from the forest.

Good luck with tonight. Because she is going to pull the poor me and I am going to be good, with "no opinion and nothing to say", that she normally gives you. You are being mean and nasty to her, bring her down and saying she is a bad person and bad wife and mother. 

Its going to be all excuses and poor me shi*. You should buy the VAR before going home. Take care.


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## helpahubby (Jul 27, 2015)

brooklynAnn said:


> Look at your support structure. Your family, is there your mum or sisters/cousin who your son can stay with your son while you travel. Can you pay for someone to stay at home with him when you are away? Can you take him with you and hire a sitter? Look at all these option before you say you cant care for your son.


I have some family, most live a distance from me and the rest are elderly!

I'd never say I cannot care for my son, just that those looking into the situation from the outside might think that to be the case.



> Please don't let your wife get custody of your son if she does not get help. This is not about taking care of your wife. This is about taking care of your child. You need to open your eyes and see this.


I'm so on the same page as you on this, sorry that it didn't come through in my posts. My son is my priority. I just need to make sure that I get all my ducks in a row. 



> Good luck with tonight. Because she is going to pull the poor me and I am going to be good, with "no opinion and nothing to say", that she normally gives you. You are being mean and nasty to her, bring her down and saying she is a bad person and bad wife and mother.
> 
> Its going to be all excuses and poor me shi*. You should buy the VAR before going home. Take care.


Yea its going to be tough tonight I think. Really tough. I genuinely hope and pray that this is a wake up call for her and she accepts the help and support which I am offering and of course support from others (IC/MC etc).


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## Vulcan2013 (Sep 25, 2013)

Dad @synthetics thread. His BPD x aborted their child just to spite him. Hope you will be smart and have a VAR on you tonight.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Hubby, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm sorry to hear that you believe your W is exhibiting most BPD traits at a strong level. I agree with the advice that *Shameless, Satya, Marduk*, and others have already given you. 


> I don't "know" that she has BPD traits (hence the question mark in the  subject).


Actually, you DO KNOW she has BPD traits. Every person on the planet occasionally exhibits all of the nine defining traits for BPD because these behaviors generally are basic human ego defenses that -- at a moderate level -- are essential for our survival, particularly in childhood. 

At issue then is not whether she "has BPD traits." Of course she does. We all do. Rather, at issue is (1) whether her BPD traits are at such a strong and persistent level that they are undermining your marriage and (2) whether her BPD traits are so severe that they satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD.

With regard to issue (1), you should be capable of determining whether you are seeing a strong and persistent pattern of BPD traits. Indeed, after living with this woman for ten years, you would have to be blind, deaf, and dumb not to see such symptoms. There is nothing subtle about temper tantrums, hitting and slapping you, chasing you with a knife, and being "occasionally violent." 

With regard to issue (2), you are NOT capable of determining whether she has the full-blown disorder. Only professionals can determine whether she satisfies 100% of the diagnostic criteria (i.e., having at least 5 of the 9 defining traits at a strong and persistent level). For purposes of deciding whether to divorce her, it generally does not matter whether the BPDer satisfies 100% of the diagnostic criteria (thus "having full-blown BPD") or only 70% or 80% (thus "not having full-blown BPD). This distinction usually doesn't matter because a spouse meeting 70% of the diagnostic criteria can be nearly as impossible to live with as one meeting 100%.

Yet, for purposes of deciding child custody and protecting your young son, it is important that you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that you and your son are dealing with -- and what the chances are that he may inherit a genetic predisposition and be affected by the environment (e.g., by her yelling and screaming). 

To obtain a candid assessment, it is important you see YOUR OWN psychologist. That way, the psych is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not those of your W. Relying on HER psychologist for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney for candid advice during the divorce. If you are interested, I explain this need for a second psychologist in more detail at Loath to Diagnose.


> Maybe this is one of the causes and its not BPD, or maybe this is linked to BPD? I am no expert, I don't know.


Hubby, you don't have to be an "expert" to recognize strong BPD traits in a woman you've been living with for ten years. BPD is not believed to be a disease. Rather, it is simply a pattern of basic human behaviors that are easy to spot in other people because we all have occasionally exhibited those same traits throughout our life times. Because BPD is defined to consist of these behaviors, whenever you see these behaviors in another person you are seeing BPD traits. Hence, with BPD, what you see is what you get.

Indeed, this is true for the traits of other PDs as well. Before you graduated high school, you already could identify the selfish and very grandiose classmates -- without knowing how to diagnose Narcissistic PD. You could identify the class drama queen -- without being able to diagnose Histrionic PD. You could spot the kids having no respect for laws or other peoples' property or feelings -- without diagnosing Antisocial PD. And you could recognize the very shy and over-sensitive classmates -- without diagnosing Avoidant PD. Similarly, you will be able to spot strong BPD traits when they occur. But you won't be able to diagnose it (i.e., you can't determine whether it is full-blown).


> She fills most of the [BPD] criteria. It doesn't mean she definitely has it, just, that in my opinion "the cap fits."


I agree with you that the behaviors you describe -- i.e., event-triggered irrational anger, verbal abuse, physical abuse, controlling behavior, feelings of entitlement, lack of empathy, and always being "The Victim" -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Not having met her, I cannot tell you whether her traits are strong and persistent -- but that is something you should be able to observe for yourself now that you know which behaviors are red flags. Moreover, a professional can tell you whether her strong traits are so severe and persistent as to be indicative of full-blown BPD.


> She is also incredibly jealous of anything and anyone.


Interestingly, you report that she is "incredibly jealous" in post #9 but then explain, in post #13, that you are really talking about envy, not jealousy. Specifically, you say "its not the usual type of jealousy (as in my relationships with others). Its more along the lines of 'Blah Blah takes the day off for their wife to spend time with them' or 'Blah blah can always just go and buy new things without having to check the bank.'" 

I mention this because I've never met a BPDer who doesn't have a great fear of abandonment. That is, BPDers have such low self esteem and so little ability to trust that they live in fear that their partners will walk out when they eventually realize how empty the BPDers are on the inside. My experience is that this abandonment fear always manifests itself in the form of irrational jealousy. I therefore am surprised you see no evidence of her being fearful you will leave her for another woman -- or by spending too much time with your friends and family.

As to the examples of envy that you give, that may be an indirect sign of the abandonment fear. Because a BPDer is unable to trust you, she will do endless $h!t testing to see if you still love her today. Of course, passing such a test will not satisfy the BPDer. It will simply result in her raising the bar higher on the next test of your love and devotion. Hence, her whining about you not spending enough time with her -- and not spending enough money on her -- may well be her way of testing your love to see if today is the day you are going to abandon her.


> I know that she is not a bad person, she really isn't.


If she is a BPDer (i.e., has strong traits), that is not surprising at all. BPDers generally are good people. Their basic problem is not being "bad" but, rather, being "unstable."


> I genuinely hope and pray that this is a wake up call for her and she accepts the help and support which I am offering and of course support from others (IC/MC etc).


I hope so too, Hubby. Yet, if she is a high functioning BPDer, that outcome is very unlikely. I therefore suggest that you start protecting yourself and your son by getting your ducks all lined up -- in case you decide to file for D. Toward that end, I suggest the following:

*First, *please seriously consider the advice by *Marduk* and *Vulcan* about obtaining a VAR and perhaps a CAM to record your W's outbursts, particularly those occurring in front of your son. Also consult with an attorney about the feasibility of using this evidence in a custody case -- or the wisdom of giving such evidence to Child Protective Service in the hopes they will require her to be evaluated by a psychologist. (Because psychologists are loath to diagnose BPD, I am very skeptical that you will have success introducing this issue into a custody hearing -- but your attorney or the CPS agent may have very different views on this.)

*Second,* I suggest you read _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. _Although I usually suggest reading my list of 18 Warning Signs and my posts in Maybe's Thread, I realize that you've already seen them. *

Third,* I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. It offers eight message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the _"Staying"_ board, "_Leaving" _board, and _"Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD"_ board.

*Fourth,* while you are at BPDfamily, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My two favorites are article #9 "Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering from BPD" and article #10 "Leaving a Partner with BPD."

*Fifth,* I again suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with -- and how likely it is she may pass her issues onto your son. 

*Sixth,* for tips on how to establish and enforce strong personal boundaries, I recommend the book _Codependent No More_ and an online psychiatric nurse's blog, which provides 20 tips to nurses on how they can best deal with obstinate BPDer patients. It is located at Borderline Personality Disorder on the Behavioral Unit - Psychiatric Nursing. My experience is that establishing firm boundaries and learning validation techniques will help some when the spouse has only mild to moderate BPD traits. If those traits are strong, however, these techniques won't be worth much because the BPDer will tolerate your presence in the marriage only as long as you continue walking on eggshells.

*Finally,* I recommend that you NOT tell your W about your suspicions of her having strong BPD traits. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly would project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist and let him decide what to tell her.


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## helpahubby (Jul 27, 2015)

So, I finally plucked up some courage and sat my wife down to talk to her last night.

With the 180 and all your advice at the forefront of my mind the conversation went along the following lines:

Me: So, we need to talk. 

W: Erm, ok

Me: Do you want to stay married? 

W: What do you mean?

Me: No, please just answer the question

W: Obviously, otherwise I wouldn't be here.

Then she started to loop the conversation back to previous conversations along these lines and I pulled her back.

Me: Don't try and loop this back to previous conversations, I want and need to know if you are commited to this marriage, if you aren't I fully understand, I will pack a bag and leave this evening, with my son.

W: I want to stay married, of course I do, I love you.

Me: Ok, then we need to set some very clear and obvious bundaries for our relationship, we both need to clear the air, explain to one another what is a trigger for anger and to try and work on the relationship from that point, ok?

W: Well you are just a **** every day, that winds me up. You go to work, you come in pat the dog, play with your son and only after you have played with him do you acknowledge me. Its like I am a housemaid.

Me: Again, I am not talking about the past, I am talking about what I can do in the future to *help you manage your temper*

w: Temper? You think I have a temper?

Me: Yes, and its got to stop. I really think that you need to consider seeking professional advice on how to help manage this. I cannot and will not tolerate it any longer. Whatever choice you make, you will have my full support and love, even if you choose to do nothing and we go our seperate ways. One more outburst and this marriage is over. It cannot cope with this.

W: So its all my fault yeah? You go travelling, you expect me to look after our son all day every day and you wonder why I am angry?

Me: Ok, so lets look at what I can (and have done to help that situation). I have paid for you to take driving lessons, 4 driving tests and bought you a brand new car. You can now go out whenever you wish, wherever you wish. I was aware that you maybe were feeling a little isolated so I did what I could to help. I have offered to employ someone to help with the house, all you said to me at the time was *are you saying I can't take care of my own house?*

I continued to take control of the conversation. 

I then suggested that we think about some things which we can do together to help improve communication etc.

1. Seek out common interests.
2. Date nights, not indoor ones but to get a *baby sitter*
3. Be more honest with our feelings, in a controlled manner, if she feels she is going to explode with anger then remember what she has been told by the professional (she is going to see).
4. Make sure that we do not enter into a routine
5. Spend more family time, rather than me washing the car or doing house chores, lets go out as a family
6. Try and take more vacation time together
7. Cut out the bad influences in our lives (friends etc).
8. Make sure phones are off once we get into bed.
9. Cuddle, kiss and have more physical contact
10. Try and not make excuses not to be intimate, be honest if there is a reason not to be, but if there isn't then run with it....lets be honest we both enjoy it 

At the end of the evening my wife thanked me for talking to her, its not something I often do, nor is it something she is used to happening. 

She said that she didn't realise how close I was to walking away from her and that she'd do absolutely everything she could to prevent that from happening.

I think the fact that I took control of the conversation and prevented her many times from looping back and bringing up old wounds prevented this from developing into an arguement.

I hope that I did the right things, however please let me know if not as I want to make sure that I do it right in the future.

Thank you all so much for your help and advice and giving me the strength to get this far.

PS I left a VAR in the house this morning to see what happens in my absence.

PPS - Unknown I have responded to your awesome post below.





Uptown said:


> Hubby, welcome to the TAM forum. I'm sorry to hear that you believe your W is exhibiting most BPD traits at a strong level. I agree with the advice that *Shameless, Satya, Marduk*, and others have already given you.


Thank you all, hopefully my update above has given some insight into where I am at, would love everyone's thoughts on last night!



> Actually, you DO KNOW she has BPD traits. Every person on the planet occasionally exhibits all of the nine defining traits for BPD because these behaviors generally are basic human ego defenses that -- at a moderate level -- are essential for our survival, particularly in childhood.
> 
> At issue then is not whether she "has BPD traits." Of course she does. We all do. Rather, at issue is (1) whether her BPD traits are at such a strong and persistent level that they are undermining your marriage and (2) whether her BPD traits are so severe that they satisfy 100% of the diagnostic criteria for having full-blown BPD.
> 
> With regard to issue (1), you should be capable of determining whether you are seeing a strong and persistent pattern of BPD traits. Indeed, after living with this woman for ten years, you would have to be blind, deaf, and dumb not to see such symptoms. There is nothing subtle about temper tantrums, hitting and slapping you, chasing you with a knife, and being "occasionally violent."


Sadly I think they are strong, the question which keeps running through my mind is "Can a person, a very strong willed and strong minded person get themselves through or supress BPD?"



> With regard to issue (2), you are NOT capable of determining whether she has the full-blown disorder. Only professionals can determine whether she satisfies 100% of the diagnostic criteria (i.e., having at least 5 of the 9 defining traits at a strong and persistent level). For purposes of deciding whether to divorce her, it generally does not matter whether the BPDer satisfies 100% of the diagnostic criteria (thus "having full-blown BPD") or only 70% or 80% (thus "not having full-blown BPD). This distinction usually doesn't matter because a spouse meeting 70% of the diagnostic criteria can be nearly as impossible to live with as one meeting 100%.


Agreed - as mentioned in an earlier post, I simply feel that she is exhibiting many (if not all) of the criteria.



> Yet, for purposes of deciding child custody and protecting your young son, it is important that you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is that you and your son are dealing with -- and what the chances are that he may inherit a genetic predisposition and be affected by the environment (e.g., by her yelling and screaming).


Making calls on this today, I am hoping that this will help. I was thinking of not telling my wife that I am doing this, what do you reccomend?



> To obtain a candid assessment, it is important you see YOUR OWN psychologist. That way, the psych is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not those of your W. Relying on HER psychologist for candid advice during the marriage would be as foolish as relying on her attorney for candid advice during the divorce.


Brilliant advice and to be honest not something that I would have previously considered!



> Hubby, you don't have to be an "expert" to recognize strong BPD traits in a woman you've been living with for ten years. BPD is not believed to be a disease. Rather, it is simply a pattern of basic human behaviors that are easy to spot in other people because we all have occasionally exhibited those same traits throughout our life times. Because BPD is defined to consist of these behaviors, whenever you see these behaviors in another person you are seeing BPD traits. Hence, with BPD, what you see is what you get.


What a brilliant way of summing this up, I have started to talk to my parents about this, they've seen her behaviour and they just think that she is a mental b***h which is really unfair. I understand that they are protective over me but still, this will help me explain to them what I think is going on with my wife, thank you.



> I agree with you that the behaviors you describe -- i.e., event-triggered irrational anger, verbal abuse, physical abuse, controlling behavior, feelings of entitlement, lack of empathy, and always being "The Victim" -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Not having met her, I cannot tell you whether her traits are strong and persistent -- but that is something you should be able to observe for yourself now that you know which behaviors are red flags. Moreover, a professional can tell you whether her strong traits are so severe and persistent as to be indicative of full-blown BPD.
> Interestingly, you report that she is "incredibly jealous" in post #9 but then explain, in post #13, that you are really talking about envy, not jealousy. Specifically, you say "its not the usual type of jealousy (as in my relationships with others). Its more along the lines of 'Blah Blah takes the day off for their wife to spend time with them' or 'Blah blah can always just go and buy new things without having to check the bank.'"


I should have been more clear on this, sorry. The majority of the time its the envy, however, as I mentioned earlier, I do a lot of travelling. On my return she kindly does all my washing etc and she checks the collar of each shirt etc examining for lip stick or any mark of betrayal.

My last trip was to LV for a convention, one of my samples leaked in my suitcase and she was convinced I was having an affair, took 3 weeks to persuade her otherwise (I wasn't btw).



> If she is a BPDer (i.e., has strong traits), that is not surprising at all. BPDers generally are good people. Their basic problem is not being "bad" but, rather, being "unstable."
> I hope so too, Hubby. Yet, if she is a high functioning BPDer, that outcome is very unlikely. I therefore suggest that you start protecting yourself and your son by getting your ducks all lined up -- in case you decide to file for D. Toward that end, I suggest the following:


Agreed, unstable is a great word for her.


> *First, *please seriously consider the advice by *Marduk* and *Vulcan* about obtaining a VAR and perhaps a CAM to record your W's outbursts, particularly those occurring in front of your son. Also consult with an attorney about the feasibility of using this evidence in a custody case -- or the wisdom of giving such evidence to Child Protective Service in the hopes they will require her to be evaluated by a psychologist. (Because psychologists are loath to diagnose BPD, I am very skeptical that you will have success introducing this issue into a custody hearing -- but your attorney or the CPS agent may have very different views on this.)


Thank you, good ideas and will action them immediately, however as my son is only 10 months old it might be a little early?



> *Second,* I suggest you read _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder. _Although I usually suggest reading my list of 18 Warning Signs and my posts in Maybe's Thread, I realize that you've already seen them.


OMG - each and every one of those warning signs can be applied, that is scary, very very very scaryily accurate.



> *Third,* I suggest you start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com -- the most active BPD forum I've found that is devoted fully to the spouses and family members of BPDers. It offers eight message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful to you are the _"Staying"_ board, "_Leaving" _board, and _"Raising a Child when One Parent Has BPD"_ board.


Yup, I am lurking over there right now - seems that my issues are rather insignificant compared to some of those though so I am loathe to post as I don't want to waste any time with something like this.


> *Fourth,* while you are at BPDfamily, I suggest you read the excellent articles in their resources section. My two favorites are article #9 "Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering from BPD" and article #10 "Leaving a Partner with BPD."
> 
> *Fifth,* I again suggest you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with -- and how likely it is she may pass her issues onto your son.
> 
> ...


I won't tell her, she'd flip out!!


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

> From memory, the first time that I remember a big arguement was probably down to too much wine.





> I work too hard, and at times I drink too much.


Firstly, have you thought of taking alcohol out of the equation for you both? Not a good mix when there are problems in a marriage, OP...

Secondly, your wife obviously has anger issues (but this doesn't necessarily mean that she's BPD - only a psychiatrist can make that diagnosis) and I would suggest therapy for your W and MC for you both.


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## helpahubby (Jul 27, 2015)

Cosmos said:


> Firstly, have you thought of taking alcohol out of the equation for you both? Not a good mix when there are problems in a marriage, OP...


Yup - did that a few weeks ago, helps to a small extent but I think its not the root cause, but of course it does inflame emotion.



> Secondly, your wife obviously has anger issues (but this doesn't necessarily make her BPD) and I would suggest therapy for your W and MC for you both.


Agreed - however I will try and encourage her to see a professional, they can make that call. In the meantime I will continue to persist with the boundaries which I have set and I will await feedback from everyone on here as well.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

helpahubby said:


> Agreed - however I will try and encourage her to see a professional, they can make that call. In the meantime I will continue to persist with the boundaries which I have set and I will await feedback from everyone on here as well.


Good plan, and I'd continue to keep alcohol to a minimum because it can really fuel an already angry person's anger.

Boundaries are also vital and no one (male or female) should tolerate abuse from a spouse. Document her behaviour, OP...


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## helpahubby (Jul 27, 2015)

I have also just started to read No More Mr. Nice Guy!

OMG - a few pages in and its eye opening, bravo for that suggestion as well.

The question which has just popped into my mind is this: "This book is reccomended to many folks on here, but mainly when men are having a hard time at home. Now, I understand they'd not be on the forum if that were not the case. However, does being 'a nice guy' feed some women's instincts and almost make them evolve into displaying BPD traits?"


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

helpahubby said:


> I have also just started to read No More Mr. Nice Guy!
> 
> OMG - a few pages in and its eye opening, bravo for that suggestion as well.
> 
> The question which has just popped into my mind is this: "This book is reccomended to many folks on here, but mainly when men are having a hard time at home. Now, I understand they'd not be on the forum if that were not the case. However, does being 'a nice guy' feed some women's instincts and almost make them evolve into displaying BPD traits?"


I'm a little wary of some of these books, OP, when we don't have the complete picture. If a guy truly is a doormat, obviously learning not to be one is a very good idea. However, if his W has some very valid grievances that we don't know about, suggesting that he 'man up' or start playing mind games with her (MMSLP techniques), it could backfire - badly. On the other hand, developing healthy boundaries, holding your W accountable for her bad behaviour and seeking professional help is always a positive way forward, IMO.


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## helpahubby (Jul 27, 2015)

Understood, I have also been wary of these types of books. However, I have read the description of "A Nice Guy" and even bounced the statements off a close friend who agrees that I fit 90% of them


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

helpahubby said:


> Understood, I have also been wary of these types of books. However, I have read the description of "A Nice Guy" and even bounced the statements off a close friend who agrees that I fit 90% of them


Then you might benefit from that book. But if you suspect that your W is mentally ill, for the safety of your family, I would insist on her seeking help.


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## helpahubby (Jul 27, 2015)

Cosmos said:


> Then you might benefit from that book. But if you suspect that your W is mentally ill, for the safety of your family, I would insist on her seeking help.


Absolutely will, that remains the main priority - however if I can get my stuff in order at the same time then hopefully it will be a double win. If we can move on together after she has the help then so much the better. 

If we can't, then I am in a better place for the next relationship!


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> I think [her BPD traits] are strong. The question which keeps running through my mind is "Can a person, a very strong willed and strong minded person get themselves through or suppress BPD?"


Hubby, BPD cannot be cured because, as I noted above, there is no disease to cure. BPD is believed to be caused by a lack of emotional maturity, i.e., the lack of emotional skills that the rest of us had an opportunity to learn in childhood. The result is that a BPDer experiences very intense feelings far more frequently than the rest of us -- causing a frequent distortion of the way she perceives your intentions and motivations (the very same type of distortions the rest of us experience every time we are flooded with intense feelings). This is why BPD is said to be a "thought distortion." 

Even though BPD cannot be "cured," it can be managed if the BPDer has sufficient self awareness to see the problem and sufficient ego strength to remain in therapy long enough (several years at the very least) to make a real difference. Sadly, that outcome is rare. I would be surprised if as much as 1% of BPDers seek therapy and stay there long enough to show substantial improvement. 

I've not seen any statistics on success rates but, if I had to guess, I would say perhaps 4-5% of BPDers have the required self awareness but the vast majority of them lack sufficient ego strength to do anything about it. Hence, the dismal 1% figure I am estimating. Hubby, I will respond to more of your questions tonight. Am off to work right now. Take care, Hubby.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Your problem isn't communication.

Sometimes, these folks are quite adept at communication as a form of perception control. It's how they survive and draw people to them, even as they want them to go away.

The problem is that she goes into sudden, violent rages at the drop of a hat.

Date nights won't fix that. Communication won't fix that. Vacations, family time, and all the rest of the stuff on your list isn't going to fix that.

You cannot help her with this except support her if she chooses to seek help.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

helpahubby,

I've been where you are and can relate. A lot of it is documented in my thread. It's a long read and perhaps entertaining to some.

My personal suggestion is, don't try to understand the BPD spectrum because no human ever has.

Instead, try to understand why YOU (as a person) remained in a relationship with a possibly disordered and clearly incompatible partner for so long.

This brilliant piece by Dr. Shari Schreiber will most likely tell you why:

DO YOU LOVE TO BE NEEDED, OR NEED TO BE LOVED?


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## helpahubby (Jul 27, 2015)

Synthetic, sorry to sound cold but which thread? I read a few earlier and not sure which one was correct. 

Again, I'm not trying to rub any potential salt into any potential wound. I just figure that the more informed I am, the better decision I can make. 

Thank you 

Ps, on a side note she's once again been amazing tonight. I'm sure it's all too good to be true and that it's a front, I mentioned that she is good at that in previous posts. 

Checked the VAR and nothing on them, apart from the dog, kids TV and her chatting to her mum about random stuff lol.


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## helpahubby (Jul 27, 2015)

Ps I'll check that article out tomorrow. Thanks again.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

> I was thinking of not telling my wife that I am doing this, what do you recommend?


Of course, any appointments you have with a lawyer or Child Protective Service should be kept private while you're in the process of getting your ducks in a row. As to your appointment with _your own_ psychologist, use your best judgment on whether your W should be told where you are going. I don't see any harm in telling her because she likely will assume you're trying to fix yourself, not obtain a candid opinion on her issues. But you should be seeing that IC all by yourself, without your W ever attending.



> As my son is only 10 months old it might be a little early (to contact Child Protective Services)?


Perhaps it is too early. In any event, there is no purpose in contacting them unless you have some evidence (e.g., from the VAR or a CAM -- or a police report) that your W poses a threat to your young son. I therefore encourage you to speak with a good attorney before contacting CPS to obtain legal guidance. 

As to introducing a claim of "BPD" into the custody case, I seriously doubt that will be helpful unless you have compelling evidence (e.g., her arrest or commitment to a psychiatric ward) that would motivate the judge to appoint a psychologist to evaluate her for the court. I suggest you ask your attorney about that. I've heard of people pulling that off when they have some outrageous behavior to point to. It nonetheless is very difficult to accomplish. 

Indeed, a Texas law firm openly cautions its divorce clients against mentioning "BPD" in court, explaining that it will be near impossible to get a therapist to testify candidly about it. The firm gives four reasons why therapists are loath to make such a diagnosis at http://www.bonnebridges.com/pdf/Bord...y_Disorder.pdf. One reason is that is that insurance companies rarely cover BPD treatments, forcing therapists to "diagnose" it instead as PTSD, depression, bipolar, or some other incidental effect that is covered. Another reason is that therapists know that nearly all BPDers (particularly those who are high functioning) will immediately quit therapy on hearing this dreaded diagnosis.



> Lets go to *marriage counseling* or perhaps she should go to *individual counseling*).


If your W has strong BPD traits, her issues go far beyond the simple lack of communication skills -- as Marduk explains so well above (post #28). My experience is that, until a BPDer has had several years to address those more serious issues in individual counseling, MC likely will be a total waste of time and money. Indeed, my experience with three MCs was that it was worse than a loss of time and money. It presents the BPDer with an audience (the therapist) and a stage on which to berate with you with one false claim after another. This outcome is not surprising. After all, BPDers typically are far more interested in creating drama than in finding compromises or solutions.

Moreover, hiring a MC to teach communication skills to a BPDer -- without her first addressing the underlying issues in IC -- likely will just make her more skilled at manipulation. I therefore agree with you that, if she has strong BPD traits, the place to start is suggesting she see an IC (psychologist). And it would be prudent to obtain a candid assessment of the situation from a second IC (also a psychologist) who has not seen or treated your W -- and thus is ethically bound to protect only your best interests.


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## ShameLessLover (Nov 5, 2013)

synthetic said:


> *My personal suggestion is, don't try to understand the BPD spectrum because no human ever has.
> 
> Instead, try to understand why YOU (as a person) remained in a relationship with a possibly disordered and clearly incompatible partner for so long.*


Synthetic has summed it all. 

HAH - Like you said knowledge is power. It's good to read/learn about BPD becasue it answers a lot of question, which otherwise would not make sense. But it all comes down to whether the current relationship is healthy/fulfilling enough (or at least there is a hope) to live through years to come? It does not matter if she has has 10% traits or 90%.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

helpahubby said:


> Ps, on a side note she's once again been amazing tonight. I'm sure it's all too good to be true and that it's a front, I mentioned that she is good at that in previous posts.


Part of the dynamic of a relationship with a BPDer is this "push/pull" dynamic. Or what I termed "the rollercoaster ride" in my relationship with my BPD(undiagnosed) exW.

You'll have a few days of marital bliss, and then her attitude will shift ("split") because of some perceived slight, and then you will have days of marital hell.

Something tells me your 10 year relationship has been a long string of these push/pull episodes.

These immediate shifts are caused by her fears of abandonment and engulfment. When things are good, and you get too close, she feels smothered (engulfed). This will trigger her to act out and push you away (angry outbursts). She will likely accuse you of thinking or doing something, which you weren't thinking or doing. 

When she starts to feel like she is losing you, she will become the most loving person and reel you back in. Usually with passionate sex (hoovering).

You are most likely attracted to that second version of her. And it's why you've tolerated the "acting out" version of her.

It's been widely stated that "nice guys", or knights in shining armor, in particular, are attracted to the BPD waif. And vice versa.

Keep educating yourself on BPD. Not with the idea that you, or anyone, is going to fix her. But with the idea of knowing who/what you are living with. Go to the BPD forums, ShrinkforMen, and read the books that Uptown recommended.

I think most of us who have been in relationships with women like your wife would give you the same advice:

Run. Run. Run away. 

It's no way to live. And after 10 years, you are probably losing sight of what "normal" is. You aren't going to fix her.

You play a "daddy" role in her life. When you are gone, she will replace that role with a different actor, in short order. Let some other sucker take her abuse.


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