# Why Women Have Secret Lovers



## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

I had to share this article here. Some of you need to read this..whether you're the woman thinking about an affair or the man suspecting his wife..i relate to it completely ...

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/love-doc/200907/why-women-have-secret-lovers

_Feeling stifled, unfulfilled, frustrated, and helpless in their marriages, they step outside of their marriages. Taking the step is in itself empowering. The affair is a daring active choice, not a more-of- the-same passive response. It screams out loudly “Enough! Something’s got to give, either the marriage or me.” That’s only the first step to autonomy and power. It takes a daring wife to have an affair *but an even more daring wife to go into therapy to repair her self and/or the marriage.*_


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## Mrs_Mathias (Nov 19, 2012)

Oh, Hayley...  It takes a selfish wife to have an affair, and a loving, considerate, compassionate adult to recognize the danger and work on the marriage FIRST.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

> Let me know your thoughts


asked Frances Cohen Praver, the author.

She really, *really *would not want to know my thoughts.


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## Pandemonium (May 27, 2013)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Oh, Hayley...  It takes a selfish wife to have an affair, and a loving, considerate, compassionate adult to recognize the danger and work on the marriage FIRST.


As I sit here on the edge of falling into the arms of my OM, thank-you Mrs_Mathias for bringing me back. 

As a WS I know I deserve the criticism, but sometimes as I sit here alone I doubt I have any good qualities and I needed to hear that.


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## Foreversorry (Jun 5, 2013)

We DO have good qualities. Unfortunately, our cheating overshadows most of those good qualities. Its our job to own up to what we did, put a stop to it, work to become a better person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Hayley, please, don't try to rationalize your affair. I see this is your "first" post here... which means your previous thread was deleted by you or by mods. And, I believe it is probably because so many refused to tell you it was ok to feel how you do for your professor? Please, don't try to justify. I've been there, too. Believe us, the ones who have been there, when we say it only makes the problems you have NOW that much WORSE. Please, go to a counselor.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Looks like another Sarah Palin bashing story. If there was any truth to this story it would be every where. I know I'm only focusing on part of the story, but I am tired of conservatives being bashed and lied about.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Mrs_Mathias said:


> Oh, Hayley...  It takes a selfish wife to have an affair, and a loving, considerate, compassionate adult to recognize the danger and work on the marriage FIRST.


I am far within the mark in saying no truer words were ever spoken.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Better title, why selfish women have secret lovers


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

I'm so tired of these not every single possible need and desire was meet by the other partner so cheating was ok articles. No one can meet every need.and no one ever will meet every one of their partners desires. This I'd just a short article stenting to justify selfishness. No i want to kick someone...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Ovid said:


> I'm so tired of these not every single possible need and desire was meet by the other partner so cheating was ok articles. No one can meet every need.and no one ever will meet every one of their partners desires. This I'd just a short article stenting to justify selfishness. No i want to kick someone...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


These articles are invariably written by someone who themselves is a cheater or a very close support of friends who cheat.


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## jim123 (Sep 29, 2012)

Pandemonium said:


> As I sit here on the edge of falling into the arms of my OM, thank-you Mrs_Mathias for bringing me back.
> 
> As a WS I know I deserve the criticism, but sometimes as I sit here alone I doubt I have any good qualities and I needed to hear that.


The only one who does not think you have good qualities is you.

Your H married you for them. 

Your OM knows you have them and is using them against you to get into your pants.

Let these good qualities come to the forefront again and become the true person you are. The A is never the good part of you.


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

Maricha75 said:


> Hayley, please, don't try to rationalize your affair. I see this is your "first" post here... which means your previous thread was deleted by you or by mods. And, I believe it is probably because so many refused to tell you it was ok to feel how you do for your professor? Please, don't try to justify. I've been there, too. Believe us, the ones who have been there, when we say it only makes the problems you have NOW that much WORSE. Please, go to a counselor.


 just to clarify i deleted my first thread because I got what I want from it. Which is sorting out my mind about why i fell in love with my professor and how i can stop an affair with him and how to fix my marriage...i'm proud of myself for taking these steps. I want to encourage other women to fix their marriage as well before letting their feelings for other men turn to affairs. Whether emotional or physical...by the way, what i think the article means about brave is not to encourage affairs but letting these women know they want change now and their attraction to other men is a sign they're taking actions to change their marriage..whether end it or fix it...

PS. Verbal trashing over the internet isn't really what directs me in my life


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

I don't read garbage. And isn't your husband still in the dark? How can you really grow and change when you still haven't told your husband?

Without him knowing it will only happen again as keeping secrets and not telling him whats going on is what got you where you are.


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

@kasler i think telling him that im attracted to another man will just hurt his feelings. its not deciet. I won't let him know to avoid destroying our relationship even more. you know I read about marriage counseling to help you fix your marriage all by yourslef even if your spouse is unwilling.i can change and grow whether my husband plays a part in it or not.


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## PreRaphaelite (Dec 15, 2012)

Whenever I read justifications that include words like "empowering" I feel a sense of scorn growing within me.

If it's so "empowering" for women to have secret lovers, then I'm sorry but I'd have to conclude that women are totally incapable of experiencing what real power and real autonomy is.

Thankfully, there's enough women out there who get it.


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

PreRaphaelite said:


> Whenever I read justifications that include words like "empowering" I feel a sense of scorn growing within me.
> 
> If it's so "empowering" for women to have secret lovers, then I'm sorry but I'd have to conclude that women are totally incapable of experiencing what real power and real autonomy is.
> 
> Thankfully, there's enough women out there who get it.


You know its like rebellion. A bit of it changes the situation very quickly, but if it progresses it destroys everything. Same with women feeling for other men...the attraction is a catalyst for change but if it progresses to an emotional affair or even a physical affair it will damage her family, destroy her self image, hurt her husband and her children.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> You know its like rebellion.


Rebellion in relationships is what teenagers do.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

As for the referenced article ... pure psycho-babble.

** sarcasm on **
Hmmm … Debra is “bored”, Ruth is “stressed out” and Mary’s husband isn’t measuring up some “fantasy marriage” living inside her head and the “solution” is to lie, deceive, trample hearts and destroy the lives of children?! 
** sarcasm off **

Geez, I can think of at least 100 other possible solutions that would not involve nuking other people’s lives. All I can say to these women is “wake up little girl” and a better life is not achieved through more brain chemicals.


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

@Red Sonja When people's needs are umet they can lose sense and logic..thus becoming teenagers.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Hayley_stark said:


> @Red Sonja When people's needs are umet they can lose sense and logic..thus becoming teenagers.


Is it/was it clear in your mind what _needs_ are being unmet?

I ask because it's a term you hear in many threads by WW. Is it as vague in your mind as it sounds to me? Is it a general sense of dissatisfaction?

BS are invariably blind-sided, perhaps the beginnings of suspicions, but they seem quite surprised when their spouse chooses to go outside the marriage.


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

I've been searching about emotional control and the lines not to cross . I found this in religion that caught my attention...in the quran particualrly it says "And when you ask the Prophet's wives for something, ask them from behind a barrier. That is purer for your hearts and their hearts."

It is interesting because for muslims the prophet's wives are the purest women..yet barriers in conversation are required to protect their hearts from feeling for other men.....loyality to vows alone is not enough. We have to get our needs met...we have to set barriers with other men no matter how decent/loyal/mature we think we are...

@azteca It was clear to me that my needs weren't being met and I tried to let my husband know several times but he continued to ignore me completely. .thinking the problem will be solved all by itself...what i didn't know was the extent to which this affected me...that it would push my feelings towards another man...


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Hayley_stark said:


> @azteca *It was clear to me that my needs weren't being met and I tried to let my husband know several times* but he continued to ignore me completely. .thinking the problem will be solved all by itself...what i didn't know was the extent to which this affected me...that it would push my feelings towards another man...


Well that's good. If you brought them to your husband's attention they must have been specific, no? I'm a designer. I thrive when presented with tight design brief. Vague, nebulous briefs only waste time and energy. And they don't get solved.

What were the needs you needed meeting?


Emotional
Physical
Intellectual
Material

Have I missed anything?


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

@azteca I felt unappreciated, unattended to, unloved, second place to family and friends, lonely, a burden....physical needs were met when i asked...he is too indignant to start it... I needed to feel special for him..but he wants to be chased all the time.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

Hayley_stark said:


> @azteca I felt unappreciated, unattended to, unloved, second place to family and friends, lonely, a burden....physical needs were met when i asked...he is too indignant to start it... I needed to feel special for him..but he wants to be chased all the time.


Have you both taken the Five Love Languages quiz?

Home | The 5 Love Languages®

It might help. If you both profess your love in different ways you might be saying "I love you" but in ways that are important to you, but not to your partner.

There's a book too that goes into the idea in depth, but the quiz is a quick and easy way to find the lay of the land.


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

Only yesterday on TAM i saw two male memebrs condone cheating in a sexless marriage no one got the torch and pitch forks.

I will say that no matter what drove anyone to an A it boils down for the huge majority of cheaters is the sense of selfish entitlement.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Two weeks ago my WS recently wrapped up her affair justification with the line "I felt ignored, as though I didn't exist....". This was after I had sent her some reading material on infidelity. 

She took great umbrage at the fact that she might be boxed that way. "I'm nothing like these women, my situation was nothing like this, why do you keep trying to portray it as though there was this hot and heavy....blah blah blah"

Bottom line; she did the worst possible thing to help her deal with a relationship that had gone off the rails. I found out and everything has changed - no trust, nothing but a suspect reconciliation. Do you get it? An affair f**ks everything.

She put a lot of effort into blaming me. "I tried to tell you....blah blah blah". NO she did not! She thinks she did and argues that she did but it was not like that at all. That is her history re-write default. There were so many alternatives but she made the most awful choice and it is the gift of pain that keeps on giving.


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> @Red Sonja When people's needs are umet they can lose sense and logic..thus becoming teenagers.


Are you kidding me?! When "needs" are unmet two-year-olds throw tantrums, teenagers lose sense and logic ... mature adults may get sad/hurt/frustrated but they find a way to meet those needs with some semblance of integrity that does not involve knowingly hurting other people.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> @kasler i think telling him that im attracted to another man will just hurt his feelings. its not deciet. I won't let him know to avoid destroying our relationship even more. you know I read about marriage counseling to help you fix your marriage all by yourslef even if your spouse is unwilling.i can change and grow whether my husband plays a part in it or not.


By doing what you did, you already destroyed that relationship. You know something your husband doesn't know. You lusted after a different man. That's your dirty little secret. Your husband is clueless This means you have one over him.

The faithful marriage he thought he had no longer exists. You know that. The professor knows that . Maybe other people know that. 

The only person who doesn't know that is your poor, faithful deluded husband.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> @kasler i think telling him that im attracted to another man will just hurt his feelings. its not deciet.


:wtf: :scratchhead:

:rofl::rofl:

You did not just say that.

Of course telling him you're attracted to another man will hurt his feelings BECAUSE it's wrong and by not telling him that IS being deceitful.

Wow.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> @kasler i think telling him that im attracted to another man will just hurt his feelings. its not deciet. I won't let him know to avoid destroying our relationship even more. you know I read about marriage counseling to help you fix your marriage all by yourslef even if your spouse is unwilling.i can change and grow whether my husband plays a part in it or not.


It's both a deceit and a lie.

Sorry, but you will never fix your marriage when this is the basis for it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Michie said:


> Only yesterday on TAM i saw two male memebrs condone cheating in a sexless marriage no one got the torch and pitch forks.
> 
> I will say that no matter what drove anyone to an A it boils down for the huge majority of cheaters is the sense of selfish entitlement.


That's because I never saw that thread. Point me at it and watch my interesting pitchfork techniques.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wranglerman (May 12, 2013)

Michie said:


> Only yesterday on TAM i saw two male memebrs condone cheating in a sexless marriage no one got the torch and pitch forks.
> 
> I will say that no matter what drove anyone to an A it boils down for the huge majority of cheaters is the sense of selfish entitlement.


I have to say a sexless marriage is something hard to bare!!! I am not saying I condone infidelity within a sexless marriage but understanding from both parties that one wants and the other one doesn't, the wanting party should confront the issue of "WHY" the marriage is sexless and if it is accepted then sex can be sought outside the marriage by prior arrangements, but I know of only one marriage where this is an allowed acceptance and due to the wife being severely injured after a riding accident and she loved her husband enough to allow discreet contact with other women.

Sorry but Hayley, please grow up, that article is justification to suit your own means, nothing more!!!


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

You know what surprised me the most in this thread? It is the amount of hurt that men feel when their wives feel for someone else...when they usually appear like they don't give a damn about their wives. Last night my mom asked what my professor thought about my presentation...i peeked at my husband's face and saw a death glare.. He senses that my professor is hitting on me and wants to know what he says. .this surprises me. Why didn't he show me this attention before? Why start caring after someone else is giving it to me? I'm not justifying affairs but men believe the only thing they need to do is stand there and breathe for their wives to be satisfied.

@azteca thanks for that wonderful link i'll send it to my husband at some point...by the way, most of the needs that the quiz mentioned i told them to my husband clearly and bluntly...emotional, physical , quality time without phone or tv etc...he knows everything I need. I sent him a video about marriage advice too. 

I told him before that if he ignores me again i will not chase him...so now he's ignoring me and i'm living like he doesn't exist. I'm dressing up, being happy, doing all my duties and asking him to do his without excessive pleading...but i'm not taking any more initiatives with him. He's gonna have to come after me this time.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

What you may be failing to see Haley is this: My wife thought the same "Why didn't you show me attention" during her affair.

Problem is, I DID show her attention. Not only that, I always showered her with affection. It was she who turned her back during the affair. I showed her letters, emails and notes that I left for her during that time period.

It was then, that the Land of Unicorns & Rainbows fell into a brown, heaping matter of sh-t on the floor.

Reality.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> You know what surprised me the most in this thread? It is the amount of hurt that men feel when their wives feel for someone else...when they usually appear like they don't give a damn about their wives. Last night my mom asked what my professor thought about my presentation...i peeked at my husband's face and saw a death glare.. He senses that my professor is hitting on me and wants to know what he says. .this surprises me. Why didn't he show me this attention before? Why start caring after someone else is giving it to me? I'm not justifying affairs but men believe the only thing they need to do is stand there and breathe for their wives to be satisfied.


I got news for ya honey. He knows. He can see it in your mannerisms that you LUST after this professor. Not love, LUST. hat's all it is. You are attracted to the facade he presents, as was told in the previous thread. He gave the death glare because he is SICK of that professor taking up so much of your time and thoughts. 

Now, you asked "why is it that men..."" Girl, it isn't only men who feel that way. Some wives feel the same way. By saying "I'm not justifying affairs but...".... that is EXACTLY what you are trying to do. Saying "hey, if you didn't act like this, I wouldn't have an affair" is just plain stupid. You're smarter than that. If you weren't, I suspect you wouldn't be taking college courses. Now, use your brain for something constructive, rather than trying to rationalize your EXCUSES for having an affair.

*BTW, I have been on both sides...as the wayward and the betrayed. It was a stupid choice for me. It was a stupid choice for my husband.... do you really think I would believe cheating isn't stupid for someone else?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> My wife thought the same: "Why didn't you show me attention" during her affair.
> 
> Problem is, I DID show her attention. Not only that, I always showered her with affection. It was she who turned her back during the affair. I showed her letters, emails and notes that I left for her during that time period.
> 
> ...


I empathize 100% Dig! I showered my STBXW with as much attention that I could! To accomodate her "business trips" both abroad and out-of-state, I was the one who volunteered to stay at home, to manage the farm, look after the kids, and be there in the event that my presence was immediately needed.

When she got back home, as soon as she was over her "being tired jags," I managed to love her with my entire heart and soul. I sent her cards and letters with some of the most heartfelt words that I could muster, but none of that was ever really reciprocated. Physically speaking, she seemed to make up for it by just loving me so damn hard, that I honestly thought that I had died and gone to heaven.

And then came that fateful March morning, when she asked for the "trial separation," under the guise that it would make things better for us in the long run. And only after that, did I truly discover what a "dupe" I had been when I found out that she had been sleeping with her two other men and me simultaneously for a number of months, prior to the separation.

Maybe it was because I wasn't monetarily rich like her ~ one of the OM was, the other was not. And maybe it was perhaps that I didn't show her what it was that she wanted from me, either from a psychological or a sexual standpoint. If that was it, she never made as much as a mild intonation about it the entire time.

And although we were engaged in MC together, either she failed to convey her cheating activities to the counselor; or she did convey them, and I was ordered to be "out of the loop" on that subject matter. In any event, she just covertly decided to take matters into her own hands and cheat with her former HS boyfriend and her deceased first husband's best friend and co-worker, coming back home to convey her sense of jaded love by sleeping with me as if nothing had ever occurred at all.

And after mulling her _modus operandi_ through for quite some time, in my heart, I honestly cannot help but believe that inasfar as her infidelity toward me was remotely concerned , that that truly was not her "first time at the rodeo!" I honestly believe some of the rumors that she had cheated on her first husband as well when they were still married!


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Hayley_stark said:


> You know what surprised me the most in this thread? It is the amount of hurt that men feel when their wives feel for someone else...when they usually appear like they don't give a damn about their wives. Last night my mom asked what my professor thought about my presentation...i peeked at my husband's face and saw a death glare.. He senses that my professor is hitting on me and wants to know what he says. .this surprises me. Why didn't he show me this attention before? Why start caring after someone else is giving it to me? I'm not justifying affairs but men believe the only thing they need to do is stand there and breathe for their wives to be satisfied.
> 
> @azteca thanks for that wonderful link i'll send it to my husband at some point...by the way, most of the needs that the quiz mentioned i told them to my husband clearly and bluntly...emotional, physical , quality time without phone or tv etc...he knows everything I need. I sent him a video about marriage advice too.
> 
> I told him before that if he ignores me again i will not chase him...so now he's ignoring me and i'm living like he doesn't exist. I'm dressing up, being happy, doing all my duties and asking him to do his without excessive pleading...but i'm not taking any more initiatives with him. He's gonna have to come after me this time.


Sorry but I see nothing more than a sense of entitlement in your statements. It isn't always men, it is just as much women. It seems that you for some reason think that only your needs have to be met in your relationship. Stop thinking solely about yourself and start thinking about your husband. 

It is great that you took the love languages, but it is not all about you. The idea is to see that you both might have different love languages and needs, and that yours and his job are to support each other with what the other needs. All I see you writing is, "I told him what I need and he still doesn't provide it", "I am not chasing him", "he doesn't give me what I need", etc. Do you know what his languages are and are you working towards or trying to provide them to him, as I don't see that? He doesn't chase you, but maybe that is the way he is wired. By not telling him everything, you are telling a lie by omission and lying hurst the other party more than you know. Nothing is going to get fixed if you expect him to do all of the heavy lifting, you need to be doing things as well.

You need to be just as attentive to his needs as he needs to be to yours (and you expect him to be). Even though you may think that you have told him so blatantly over the years, maybe he just doesn't get it or he didn't understand the severity of the situation. Coming from different backgrounds and having different experiences can lead to the two of you having completely different expectations of the other partner and marriage. Yes it is true that MC can help if only one is willing to go, but the situation that exists in the other party will never be changed and therefor the marriage will never truly grow and strengthen. Also, I think that you are going about this the wrong way. If you are so quick to go discuss this with a counselor, yet not discuss this with your husband, then you are setting him up for more pain and suffering down the road (as he will see this as another way that you have betrayed him by not talking to him first).

Just my $0.02 take it or leave it.


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## toonaive (Dec 13, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> I got news for ya honey. He knows. He can see it in your mannerisms that you LUST after this professor. Not love, LUST. hat's all it is. You are attracted to the facade he presents, as was told in the previous thread. He gave the death glare because he is SICK of that professor taking up so much of your time and thoughts.
> 
> Yep. He knows. He may not be able to put his finger on exactly what is going on right now. But he knows something is amiss. Its a feeling that is probably slowly eating him up inside. If he has never had a love that cheat on him before. It is a new sensation, and its not a good one. Its a primal one. When he finds out, and he eventually will. That is when he will understand how long, if ever, it took for you to tell him. He will question everything you have ever said or done. He will very quickly switch between rage, smoldering anger, hurt, despair without a moments notice. He will work through these emotions for a very long time. Perhaps carrying with him small embers of these until he dies. I get why you dont want to tell him. But, I cant empathize. YOu are still only thinking about what you want. I know very well what is about to happen to him, im very sorry to say.


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## Horizon (Apr 4, 2013)

Hayley, why are you staying? - why do you even care? Take your affair and hit the bricks. It sounds like you really want to hammer your husband. Why aren't you putting your time with the Prof into fixing your marriage. Sounds like payback. We go off the rails but we stay, as bad as it gets we stay (many of us). The sort of wake up call we need is not an affair. Why do you keep arguing the toss? Just leave the bloke alone - your husband I mean. If you can see his pain then why bask in it? Sounds like you really resent him. Bit sadistic Hayley.


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

@maricha75 

My husband senses it because i told him at first about the messages that my tutor sent me and how I thought they were funny...me and my husband were laughing about it. Now that Im not talking about such messages he's becoming suspicious (but actually my tutor isn't contacting any of the students now because he hired an admin to speak on his behalf. Decent move on his side) I don't know how you're so certain about seeing me in lust for the professor behind your computer screen...if you read any books about emotional infidelity you would have an idea about the nature of this attraction. Its really very emotional . Just as the name suggests...

@Squeakr 

Just to clarify I don't like extreme feminism or anything. I spent years making my husband feel needed. Dressing up. Being as pretty as i can. Admiring him. Thanking him. Doing my duties as best as i can. Not trying to pressure him with errands. Doing as much as i can myself. He only showed attention to me when he wanted sex. I told him that i can't stand it when he ignores me all the time and only show interest when he wants sex...now im the one who has to initiate sex..i think he's punishing me or something...after every disagreement he shuts down and ignores me....So I'm taking the approach of ignoring him back. Lets see what happens...because actually i have no energy in chasing him anymore ( by the way...i'm not focusing on my infatuation with my tutor ... now I find both men repulsive)


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Interesting.


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## GTdad (Aug 15, 2011)

Hayley_stark said:


> I spent years making my husband feel needed. Dressing up. Being as pretty as i can. Admiring him. Thanking him. Doing my duties as best as i can. Not trying to pressure him with errands. Doing as much as i can myself. He only showed attention to me when he wanted sex. I told him that i can't stand it when he ignores me all the time and only show interest when he wants sex...now im the one who has to initiate sex..i think he's punishing me or something...after every disagreement he shuts down and ignores me....So I'm taking the approach of ignoring him back. Lets see what happens...because actually i have no energy in chasing him anymore ( by the way...i'm not focusing on my infatuation with my tutor ... now I find both men repulsive)


And yet you don't want to hurt the feelings of your repulsive husband?

Boy, talk about magnanimous.

Is this prof tenured, tenure-track, or none of the above?


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## 5Creed (May 29, 2011)

Hayley,

You really do sound entitled; almost as if it makes you feel good that your husband is "noticing" you finally and "giving you attention" albeit in more of a negative way than I am guessing you wanted all along. It seems you are punishing your husband and now this feels good to you?!?

You want your husband to come after you huh? Good luck with that. Also-you are acting "as if he doesn't exist." That sounds super healthy in a marriage that I see has some issues to work out.

I am sorry for your husband and for you. Is this the way you want to live? Do you think he wants to live this way for the rest of his life? How sad and unfair that he is unaware of the full extent of your "relationship" with your professor. 

I do hope you both can get some counseling and soon. This isn't a way to live for either of you.


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## 5Creed (May 29, 2011)

You have both been hurt by how you treated each other in the past. I understand your need/want to give the same treatment back to him. The bottom line is this is the hurt you have felt in the past and you are going to do the same thing to him; this behavior is what it is based on don't you think?

This will work for a short time and might make you feel better as it seems to be doing right at this moment, but it is not the way to rebuild a good marital relationship.


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

@5creed 
No energy to take any more initiatives...i feel humiliated by my husband.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Hayley: Marriage is a biblical institution ordained by God. Conversely, Divorce/Separation is only a social institution brought about by man, and greatly for his own benefit.

I take it that you took wedding vows to your husband. Given that, exactly what have you personally done to sustain the precepts of those wedding vows?

Running to your Professor lover seems like nothingmore than sheer personal "entitlement" on your part! 

Your husband deserves far better treatment than you are showing him! If you don't love him, release him so he can find someone who will truly love him for the person that he is! 

Obviously, you cannot!


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Then divorce him.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> By doing what you did, you already destroyed that relationship. You know something your husband doesn't know. You lusted after a different man. That's your dirty little secret. Your husband is clueless This means you have one over him.
> 
> The faithful marriage he thought he had no longer exists. You know that. The professor knows that . Maybe other people know that.
> 
> ...


When this happens, the marriage is a sham. Everyone, but the one who should know, knows it. They will treat him with little respect. They will assume he is either, less than intelligent, aware and a cuckold, a liar, in an open marriage or a polyamorous marriage, etc., etc.

Edit: I just thought of a few more "fun" facts or possibilities. You may be seen by other men as an easy target to have their sexual needs met. You will have plenty of men flocking to you for gratification, wanted or not. Of course, you may want to blame that on your husband if he ever finds out, and he will. He won't want to believe it because he loves and respects you. He thinks you will come to him with whatever is troubling you and you two will work it out. You may even think he told everyone to have a go at you, but that won't be until after you have sifted through the prospective suitors. There's two sides to every coin. Just food for thought. It may not come down this way. I hope it does not for both your sake.

If he finds out later, he will be devastated by his friends because they will laugh at his stupidity for not knowing it happened. They will believe he is not worthy of respect. It will devastate his life even further.

I believe it should be brought out in the open in a controlled environment. I think there should be a therapist there when it is revealed. This is the one you professed to love. If you have no respect for him, you cannot love him.

He will never be able to trust you or anyone that knows about this if it goes on and on. It will take years for him to recover. Good luck.


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## 5Creed (May 29, 2011)

I understand Hayley-I used to feel like this with my STBX. It is an awful feeling. I too wanted nothing more than to get back at him and make his suffer as much as I did! Trust me when I say it isn't a way to live. Under all that punishing behavior is some real anger/hurt that can be worked out.

I really do hope you can focus on you-please get the help you need through counseling if you are able to go. I feel it will help you get past all of it and you don't want to have these feelings smoldering inside of you for much longer.


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## jlc29316 (Feb 28, 2013)

Even prostitutes justify their behavior, so why not cheaters?


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

Divorce isn't as easy as some of you make it seem. Why is it the first solution on this forum? Is everybody here divorced or something? There has got to be many more steps to follow before considering divorce.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> What you may be failing to see Haley is this: My wife thought the same "Why didn't you show me attention" during her affair.
> 
> Problem is, I DID show her attention. Not only that, I always showered her with affection. It was she who turned her back during the affair. I showed her letters, emails and notes that I left for her during that time period.
> 
> ...



Yeah. I'm just gonna repeat this one cuz it needs to be read again and again by the OP.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> Divorce isn't as easy as some of you make it seem. Why is it the first solution on this forum? Is everybody here divorced or something? There has got to be many more steps to follow before considering divorce.


Yes. The first one is give him the option of divorcing or reconciling with you by telling him the truth of your affair.


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## 5Creed (May 29, 2011)

What has happened with your emotional affair is a symptom of what the marriage had endured before it. Do you understand this? You felt unappreciated by your husband, he treated you unfairly and you felt you needed to turn to another more understanding man who gave you the positive attention you needed and made you feel on top of the world. 

All of it was not fair to your husband and you probably are realizing this now. However, there are all those issues that came before the affair. 

So yes; he did his thing and you did your thing and whether or not your marriage is something either of you can or want to save will be determined. He has a right to make a choice and so do you. 

Get this figured out sooner rather than later and find whatever is going to make you both happy in the future.


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> Divorce isn't as easy as some of you make it seem. Why is it the first solution on this forum? Is everybody here divorced or something? There has got to be many more steps to follow before considering divorce.


Listen carefully Haley if you are here on TAM to seek support for your reasons for having an affair. Well don't hold your breath. Mostly all of us agree here that affairs are never the answer to martial problems. Mainly because they cause MORE martial problems.

Some of us can understand the reasons but again seperation or divorce is the preferable solutions if the possible cheater thinks they can no longer be happy.

Sooooooo good luck


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Hayley_stark said:


> PS. Verbal trashing over the internet isn't really what directs me in my life


Most likely. Perhaps lust and self-interest are the ones.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Hayley_stark said:


> @Red Sonja When people's needs are umet they can lose sense and logic..thus becoming teenagers.



Nobody owes you. Unless you're a teenager still.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> @maricha75
> 
> My husband senses it because i told him at first about the messages that my tutor sent me and how I thought they were funny...me and my husband were laughing about it. Now that Im not talking about such messages he's becoming suspicious (but actually my tutor isn't contacting any of the students now because he hired an admin to speak on his behalf. Decent move on his side)* I don't know how you're so certain about seeing me in lust for the professor behind your computer screen...if you read any books about emotional infidelity you would have an idea about the nature of this attraction. Its really very emotional . Just as the name suggests..*.


And, if you had actually READ what I wrote... I *LIVED* it. I had not one, but TWO emotional affairs. My husband had one as well. So, I can say with certainty that it is *LUST*, not love that is driving you in this.. And, I don't need to read a book to tell me that you are trying to rationalize your actions and feelings. There is no rationalization. There is no justification.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Hayley_stark said:


> Just to clarify I don't like extreme feminism or anything. I spent years making my husband feel needed. Dressing up. Being as pretty as i can. Admiring him. Thanking him. Doing my duties as best as i can. Not trying to pressure him with errands. Doing as much as i can myself. He only showed attention to me when he wanted sex. I told him that i can't stand it when he ignores me all the time and only show interest when he wants sex...now im the one who has to initiate sex..i think he's punishing me or something...after every disagreement he shuts down and ignores me....So I'm taking the approach of ignoring him back. Lets see what happens...because actually i have no energy in chasing him anymore ( by the way...i'm not focusing on my infatuation with my tutor ... now I find both men repulsive)


You say you did all of these things, and I am not questioning it. What I am questioning is, are these the things he needs/ needed?

Yes, you may have been doing these things for him, but were they his love languages and what he needed? The same thing happened with me and my wife. After reading love languages, I can tell you, that I was doing lots of things (she says I wasn't), but I now realize that I was doing what I thought she needed based upon my needs. I now know that I was not speaking her love languages but she hasn't read the book to tell me her exact love languages (I just know they aren't the same as mine). She also was doing things she thought I needed and not what I needed. After doing these things for so long and being unappreciated for our efforts, we gave up. Maybe for your husband it isn't all about looks and flattery, but more about gifts or actions?

You need to focus on him and not you. You are doing what you need and want but that doesn't mean it is the same for him, do what he needs.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> Divorce isn't as easy as some of you make it seem. Why is it the first solution on this forum? Is everybody here divorced or something? There has got to be many more steps to follow before considering divorce.


Just as it takes two parties to contract into getting married, it takes those two same parties to do the same in reconciliation! Without that, it is impossible!

And not everyone here at TAM is "pro-divorce." But without the showing of some true heart-felt remorse for self entitlement, the R would only be an exercise in futility!

If you can convince your husband that you are truly sorry and repentant for your actions, and if can convince you that he is the same way; and if you commit to hardcore MC willing to endure the psychological blows from the counselor as well as yourselves, then there is a chance!

All that I'm saying is that the laws of probability certainly are not on your side ~ but they can be overcome, only if the two of you earnestly commit to it!


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> Just to clarify I don't like extreme feminism or anything. I spent years making my husband feel needed. Dressing up. Being as pretty as i can. Admiring him. Thanking him. Doing my duties as best as i can. Not trying to pressure him with errands. Doing as much as i can myself. He only showed attention to me when he wanted sex. I told him that i can't stand it when he ignores me all the time and only show interest when he wants sex...now im the one who has to initiate sex..i think he's punishing me or something...after every disagreement he shuts down and ignores me....So I'm taking the approach of ignoring him back. Lets see what happens...because actually i have no energy in chasing him anymore ( by the way...i'm not focusing on my infatuation with my tutor ... now I find both men repulsive)



If you were a good wife and these marvelous and wonderful things for your husband and he rejected them and did no value it or you. If he showed no tenderness or appreciation, then quite simply you tell your husband in a very unmistakeable tone of truth and sincereity this 

"Husband if I am not worth your acknowledgement, your respect and your love then it is clear our relationship is no of value or worth to you. I refuse to waste one more moment of my life with a ghost relationship."


Don't know how to make more clear that affairs are just one more problem.


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

I will never speak w my husband about the professor. I don't believe in confession. Confession=Disaster . Specially when no progress happened between me and my tutor. We are both putting a stop to it so why blow things out of proportion by confessing? I really don't get it.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Hayley_stark said:


> Divorce isn't as easy as some of you make it seem. Why is it the first solution on this forum? Is everybody here divorced or something? There has got to be many more steps to follow before considering divorce.


The first step is to remove yourself completely from the adultery situation. Have you done that?


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

aug said:


> The first step is to remove yourself completely from the adultery situation. Have you done that?


There was no adultery situation. It is just a mutual crush. I'm taking my time to get over it. I've sorted out my mind on my tutor and I'm taking steps to distance myself from him. In the mean time, I'm fixing my marriage so I'm not vulnerable to falling in love again with my professor. I want to be happy with my husband...i think it can still work...our feelings for each other aren't completely dead.


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> I will never speak w my husband about the professor. I don't believe in confession. Confession=Disaster . Specially when no progress happened between me and my tutor. We are both putting a stop to it so why blow things out of proportion by confessing? I really don't get it.


I could really care less if you confess or not, why are you wasting his life and your life? Neither of you seem from your POV to acknowledge the crap relationship you find yourself in.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> There was no adultery situation.





Hayley_stark said:


> I'm fixing my marriage so I'm not vulnerable to falling in love again with my professor.


Do you see how in one post you make absolutely no sense or do you really not get it?


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

SomedayDig said:


> Do you see how in one post you make absolutely no sense or do you really not get it?


Let me get this straight. Mutual Crush does not equal adultery to me.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> Let me get this straight. Mutual Crush does not equal adultery to me.


How about stabbing versus shooting someone? Does that equal violence at all??


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Confession will free you to be who you are deep inside and work on the parts you would like to change.


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

ok...welcome to the land of fine distinctions. Ok so if you were not emotionally vnerable or open with this crush, nor physical...why this section to post about your specfic martial problems....


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Hayley_stark said:


> There was no adultery situation. It is just a mutual crush. I'm taking my time to get over it. I've sorted out my mind on my tutor and I'm taking steps to distance myself from him. In the mean time, I'm fixing my marriage so I'm not vulnerable to falling in love again with my professor. I want to be happy with my husband...i think it can still work...our feelings for each other aren't completely dead.



If so, that's a step in the right direction.


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

Michie said:


> ok...welcome to the land of fine distinctions. Ok so if you were not emotionally vnerable or open with this crush, nor physical...why this section to post about your specfic martial problems....


As I said to repay the people here who helped me stop a possible affair with my tutor...I'm talking about the considerate people who really wanted to help...i think this thread might help women understand themselves and fix their marriage before it's ruined.

By the way, the ignoring worked. My husband called to check on me. First time in weeks. He told me he's very tired at work. I told him I'm very tired as well. He ended the call really quickly...


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## TexasFlyer (Apr 30, 2012)

Haley - get yourself to a therapist. I am sorry you are going through this, it is undboutedly awful, confusing, exciting, and upsetting.. 

However, by not being honest with yourself, and making up your own definitions to cheating, you are only priming yourself for the actual physical event. If you don't shine light on your skeletons, they don't go away.. They just wait. 

It sounds like the both of you are in a seriously codependent relationship. It sounds like you are a love addict, expecting your husband to mind read.. 

You need counseling STAT! Go alone, go together, but you are not solving anything by quoting old religious texts out of context, or trying to manage it yourself. You have many people on this thread sharing stories, experiences, and trying to help you not make the exact same mistake.. While we are unique, we are very much alike, and your situation is not unsolveable - but you will need help to do it. 

Going back and forth with the same song and dance, to me, means that you know you are wrong and are hoping that someone will come to your defense and tell you that you are indeed right - but nobody has, nobody will.. They will validate your feelings of frustration, resentment, they will understand. But that does not mean what you are doing, saying, acting out, is the right thing to do. 

If you cannot tell your husband, that makes you a coward. You are attempting to save yourself the embarrassment, the upset, while hiding under the guise that it is whats best.. Please get help.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

I haven't read all the responses, but I can imagine what they are 

Anybody can be a cheater. It does not take some sort of special quality to fVck around. Rich people do it, poor people do it, celebrities do it, no-names do it. Ever watch Springer?

It comes down to this: Do you have integrity? Cheaters do not.

Cheaters look for reasons to cheat. Hence, we get articles like OP has linked.

No loyal spouse can ever compete with an affair partner. It is completely unfair to the loyal spouse. This is why we promise *monogamy* when we get married. So we can trust our spouse not to engage in that nonsense.

But, the world is full of people who lack integrity. And cheaters.

If you want to live like a single person, get divorced first. Tell your spouse you are selfish and want to be single again. Otherwise, you're nothing more than a narcissistic cake eater, of the lowest order.


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## KimatraAKM (May 1, 2013)

A few people here just want people's marriages to fall to ruin so they're misery has company and they can say "see! She/he deserved it".. I'll never believe otherwise. There are also people here who will give you good advice that does not include reflecting the justice of their own marriage onto yours. 

Don't tell... Why would you? You got control of yourself before you cheated.. You wouldn't go back to high school and tell your 11th grade calculus teacher "hey I cheated on a final a few years back.".. If you're truly over it and working to better your relationship then good enough.

As for your article you posted, I can understand how many women feel the want to cheat. I'm not saying EVERY husband stops treating their wife like a prize.. But some do and I could see that wife getting lonely and being vunerable to someone who treats her special. Some of the nicest, most thoughtful people in the world have cheated.. When I aske about it in my family I came to find out at least 50% of the marriages in my own family had seen some variation of cheating. It's easy for people on the outside who don't know the situation or the people involved to condem and villainify the cheater and make the BS out to be this amazing angel of virtue in their own mind. Now being on both sides of this issue I see how hypocrital alot of people's "advice" is on here. I don't necessarily believe people who cheat are bad people.. Thy are people who made bad choices. Sure there are some that are awful examples of humanity, but I doubt many thought they'd ever cheat or be vunerable to it.

Anyway... That's my thoughts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Hayley_stark said:


> As I said to repay the people here who helped me stop a possible affair with my tutor...I'm talking about the considerate people who really wanted to help...i think this thread might help women understand themselves and fix their marriage before it's ruined.
> 
> By the way, the ignoring worked. My husband called to check on me. First time in weeks. He told me he's very tired at work. I told him I'm very tired as well. He ended the call really quickly...


You might as well move on. Your marriage is dead. I can tell from your sense of entitlement that you are justifying your actions and thoughts. You are trying to control the marriage and not share it. 

You moved on and started an EA. You deleted the original thread why? If your idea was to help, then you should have just closed it, but left it there for people to learn from. Instead in your words, "you got what you wanted",so you closed it". Now you are controlling your marriage by deliberately hiding your EA from your husband because you don't think it is that bad and he "really" doesn't need to know (except if it ever comes out then he will be devastated even worse that it was hidden, believe me I know).

You are stating that in your mind something doesn't fit your definition and therefor it is NOT what it appears like to others. Maybe your husband doesn't share the same viewpoints, but we will never know and he won't have the chance to face it directly as he will not be given the chance. You are now ignoring him so that he will respond to you?? So if he doesn't behave the way you want him to then you punish him?? Do him a favor and move on like you have already done in your mind. Your controlling nature in the relationship will end in nothing but heartache for you and him.

I have stated several times that you need to be doing for him (and he needs to be doing for you as well) but all I see is you stating what you are/ will do and berating him for his actions and responses to your ultimatums.

Marriage should be about give an take and not about you always calling the shots!


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

Haley,

You are a child. You are immature and you have a chance to grow.

The minute you looked at another man you committed adultery in your heart. Commandment #7, Matthew 5:27-28... Whether you committed the physical act or not really doesn't make a difference. An Emotional Affair is often more crippling than a physical affair.

I am not saying that the definition of adultery that I pointed is the only one. I am pointing out that you CHOOSE to pick the definitions of things that best suit your needs to follow cowardly actions. Take a good look at yourself honestly.

Having a crush when you are married is flat out wrong. You complain about your husband's actions so you are acting like a brat to get what you want... 
_*
So I'm taking the approach of ignoring him back. Lets see what happens...because actually i have no energy in chasing him anymore*_

I don't know how wrong you are but you are very immature. You are upset with your husband. When you talk about disagreements, is it a disagreement or a fight? Do you tell him what he is doing wrong or do you tell him that your appreciate it when he does things that you like? Do you show positive reinforcement?

You have lusted for someone else and start pursuing it... Ok, that is bad. You won't tell your husband because you don't want to admit what you did is wrong???

Either sit down and discuss with him what is really bothering you in an adult fashion or cut him loose. Everything here you do is childish. You play games with semantics to show how you are 'technically' correct. Here is a quote from a liberal feminist that applies: Gertrude Stein "Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose"

You are looking for advice. Here is mine. 

1. Grow up
2. Act responsibly

Having a fairy tale affair with a professor or tutor or whomever is just childish. 

As for what Dig said... I like many other betrayed husbands lavished affection on my WS. I was no saint. I was not perfect, but I honestly tried my best to give her what I thought she needed or wanted. If she needed or wanted something else, she never told me.

If you need something from him, don't hint about it. Don't attack him, upset him. get him to close down then try to tell him. Sit down with him and calmly tell him your feelings, or just run around his back lusting after anyone of any possible value that shows you any interest and be technically correct in the fact that it wasn't 'technically' an affair or it wasn't 'technically' adultery.

I had a talk with my 9 year old about being 'technically' correct. He at least got it.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

KimatraAKM said:


> Don't tell... Why would you? You got control of yourself before you cheated.. You wouldn't go back to high school and tell your 11th grade calculus teacher "hey I cheated on a final a few years back.".. If you're truly over it and working to better your relationship then good enough.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Not a fair analogy as when you take a high school calculus class, you are not bonded to the teacher, you didn't take an oath and sign legal documents to state your devotion and lifelong commitment to the teacher and the class. If you were to go back and confess, do you think the teacher would feel a betrayal and hurt beyond belief? More than likely no, as they some what expect that sort of behavior (they hope it doesn't happen but know that it will along the way). The teacher doesn't extend you a bond of trust just by you taking that class.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

KimatraAKM said:


> Don't tell... Why would you? You got control of yourself before you cheated.. You wouldn't go back to high school and tell your 11th grade calculus teacher "hey I cheated on a final a few years back.".. If you're truly over it and working to better your relationship then good enough.


Oh boy... she got control of herself before she cheated? Really? Emotional infidelity IS cheating. Cheating on your spouse doesn't compare to cheating on a math test. C'mon, Kim. You know better than this. And this isn't something from 10+ years ago. This is NOW. As in she JUST posted about this (and deleted her first thread) last week/over the weekend. So, this isn't the distant past. This is the present. 

Speaking of cheating... Kim, are you going to update in your thread?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

5Creed said:


> What has happened with your emotional affair is a symptom of what the marriage had endured before it. Do you understand this? You felt unappreciated by your husband, he treated you unfairly and you felt you needed to turn to another more understanding man who gave you the positive attention you needed and made you feel on top of the world.
> 
> All of it was not fair to your husband and you probably are realizing this now. However, there are all those issues that came before the affair.
> 
> ...


That's what she told herself about her marriage. All of it or part of it might not be as true as she believes it to be.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KimatraAKM (May 1, 2013)

This is most definitely the same thing..if the marriage was so miserable she would divorce him. It's her choice. None of us know how miserable she is, what else she tried before becoming weak and falling for her prof.. At least she didn't cheat.

Are you still having feelings about the Prof, Haley? Only reason to tell is of you're having issues staying faithful. If you REALLY are giving 100% then why rock a boat? It'll only take miserable to a new level.. Though you should probably tell your hubby your miserable and give him a chance to fix it. If he's not interested then you have your answer.. Deal or leave. But if he says he's willing to work on it with you.. Do it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

When he asks what brought you to the point of confronting him with the issues, what will you tell him?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

KimatraAKM said:


> At least she didn't cheat


This one sentence says it all. This tells where you are coming from. YOU don't see emotional infidelity as cheating. YOU don't. If she hadn't seen it as cheating, she wouldn't have posted in the INFIDELITY forum. Whether you wish to acknowledge emotional infidelity as cheating or not is your choice. But it doesn't change the fact that is IS, in FACT, CHEATING.


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## KimatraAKM (May 1, 2013)

It is cheating.. I totally believe falling for someone else is cheating. But I also believe its a fantasy. You don't reAlly love that other man. You love be idea of him.

She woke up before she made it worse..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: Why Women Have Secret Lovers*



Hayley_stark said:


> _Feeling stifled, unfulfilled, frustrated, and helpless in their marriages, they step outside of their marriages. Taking the step is in itself empowering... _


Feeling is not always the same as being. it is YOUR marriage, a covenant YOU made, not some obstacle someone has placed before you. An affair is never empowerment, it only feels like it because when you can shed your loyalty it no longer feels like betrayal. But your feelings are misguiding you, it IS betrayal. If it is true empowerment you need, you have two choices at this juncture: fix it or end it.


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## 5Creed (May 29, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> That's what she told herself about her marriage. All of it or part of it might not be as true as she believes it to be.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly! I want Hayley to see that this is the reasoning it comes down to; the excuses and permission a WS gives themselves to go ahead and pursue the attention and affair. 

It is never ever OK to use these or use anything a spouse has done in the past to justify it. This makes the marriage have so many more problems. (I am a BS myself.)

Just think how much s*it would be avoided before a wayward acts on these feelings of justification or excuses or the idea of: "You treated me a certain way and now it is payback!" Of course it is wrong.

Hayley, your husband no matter how he has treated you, does have a right to know about your feelings towards your affair partner. Even if you are attempting to end it or have ended it now, you need to give him the choice to leave or stay. 

He knows there is something terribly wrong in the marriage and as you said in your first post by giving you a dirty look, probably suspects what is going on. Put yourself in his shoes and ask if you would want to know of his feelings for another woman?


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

KimatraAKM said:


> This is most definitely the same thing..if the marriage was so miserable she would divorce him. It's her choice. None of us know how miserable she is, what else she tried before becoming weak and falling for her prof.. At least she didn't cheat.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Sorry, but you are wrong. An EA is cheating as well. Just because it didn't go PA doesn't mean it is not cheating. Also when you cheat on a test, you are really only hurting yourself (you are claiming credit for a grade and knowledge that you did not earn), when you cheat in a marriage, you are hurting another party and breaking their trust and friendship that they have extended and entrusted to you.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

KimatraAKM said:


> It is cheating.. I totally believe falling for someone else is cheating. But I also believe its a fantasy. You don't reAlly love that other man. You love be idea of him.
> 
> She woke up before she made it worse..
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This I can agree with. However, I still believe that if she has any hope of working out her marriage, her husband needs to know how she is feeling... including how her feelings have transferred to the professor. And they need to work together to fix it. And that includes going to MC. If he is unwilling to go, I would say IC would be in order for her, to start. Maybe the marriage will end. But, at the very least, if she gets into IC, she will have tools to help her not go down this road, again... whether with her current husband or with a different one, should they end up divorcing.


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## KimatraAKM (May 1, 2013)

An EA is most certainly cheating. My point being the wrong is over (if it truly is) and she's accepted and acknowledged it was her fault. Better to move on. She woke up from her fantasy havin not further injured her relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

So marriage and fidelity are only until you stop getting enough attention from your spouse? Seriously? *How needy can you be?* That shows that *YOU* are the problem.

What happend to vows of lifelong commitment? Vows to *forsake others so long as you live?* Vows to stay together for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer? 

Obviously vows mean very little to some people, they are just words that they say at a ceremony and don't really mean.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

By ignoring the fact that she cheated, she is setting herself up for further possible betrayals in the future. My wife has said (as have others here on this forum) that it is always easier the next time around (be it second, third, fourth, etc). Without letting her husband in, they cannot set boundaries that they both agree upon as secure and acceptable. Without these boundaries, it can easily happen again. By letting the husband in, it becomes a set of checks and balances, as sometimes people just need that little extra support from someone else (this is why removing temptations and non-supporting friends from the marriage is a must, as they can be that extra support of the wrong kind). Her husband deserves the opportunity to know the truth and decide for himself.


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

Clearly seeing the *militant* side of TAM today.

If she was not emotionally open and/or vunerable with Prof, its not an EA.

So militant TAM I have sexual fantasies or thoughts about men I'm a cheater? damn harsh


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## KimatraAKM (May 1, 2013)

She should definitely tell her husband about her feelings.. At the least she should tell him his lack of attention and romance is making her feel unhappy and making her vunerable (if that's true). Invite him back into trying to save their marriage. Unfortunately there are number of responses to this statement.. 

1) denial.. We're fine stop whining 
2) oh, I'm sorry! Ill try to make it better.... For a
Couple days.. 
3) lets save our marriage!! And follow through..

Different people answer different ways. One answer does not fit everyone.. It depends on the dynamics of the relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

Michie said:


> Clearly seeing the *militant* side of TAM today.
> 
> If she was not emotionally open and/or vunerable with Prof, its not an EA.
> 
> So militant TAM I have sexual fantasies or thoughts about men I'm a cheater? damn harsh


Thank you. I want to add that I have full ownership of my mind and my heart. My husband doesn't have the right to know what's going on in there. It's my place. I sort out my thougts and feelings towards my tutor before they turned into words or actions. I swear its okay for people to fall and stand back again. You don't have to burn and die because you let your feelings go somewhere they shouldn't...and don't let your husband know. That's okay too.


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## KimatraAKM (May 1, 2013)

Michie said:


> Clearly seeing the *militant* side of TAM today.
> 
> If she was not emotionally open and/or vunerable with Prof, its not an EA.
> 
> So militant TAM I have sexual fantasies or thoughts about men I'm a cheater? damn harsh


If that was the case spouses would have to confess to cheating every day... Heh. It's natural to find someone attractive. Even the happiest married person can find beauty in another person. I think the difference is acting on it. From the outcry of "scarlet letter you dishonoroable harlot!" she must have at least discussed her feelings with the OM..

If not.. If she secretly lusted after another man for a few days.? So what?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Michie said:


> Clearly seeing the *militant* side of TAM today.
> 
> If she was not emotionally open and/or vunerable with Prof, its not an EA.
> 
> So militant TAM I have sexual fantasies or thoughts about men I'm a cheater? damn harsh


Not militant, her exact words from an early post in this thread: 

"why i fell in love with my professor and how i can stop an *affair* with him and how to fix my marriage."

She calls it an affair, so why shouldn't we???? The things seem to change to fit the situation better and not make it seem so harsh when people call her on her actions and thoughts.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Michie said:


> Clearly seeing the *militant* side of TAM today.
> 
> If she was not emotionally open and/or vunerable with Prof, its not an EA.
> 
> So militant TAM I have sexual fantasies or thoughts about men I'm a cheater? damn harsh


You *obviously* didn't read her thread about her *falling in love with her professor* and the feeling is mutual, you know , the one she deleted. How she was already making passes at him, etc.

So it's militant to believe in fidelity in marriage? She already admits that its an affair. If you start acting on your fantasies and/or falling in love with another man..that makes you a cheater.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

Hayley_stark said:


> just to clarify i deleted my first thread because I got what I want from it. Which is sorting out my mind about why i fell in love with my professor and how i can stop an affair with him and how to fix my marriage...i'm proud of myself for taking these steps. I want to encourage other women to fix their marriage as well before letting their feelings for other men turn to affairs. Whether emotional or physical...by the way, what i think the article means about brave is not to encourage affairs but letting these women know they want change now and their attraction to other men is a sign they're taking actions to change their marriage..whether end it or fix it...
> 
> PS. Verbal trashing over the internet isn't really what directs me in my life


Not to be mean but it's pretty evident what directs you in your life. 

There is absolutely nothing brave about an affair. There is absolutely nothing worth being proud of concerning an affair. There might be one or two nuggets of wisdom in this article (though I find that highly doubtful) but those are not the main thrust of this writing. This piece is an attempt to enable people to do as they please because the consequences of an affair fall mostly on the one who is innocent of it. Sympathy for that kind of behavior, or this kind of article that celebrates such behavior, is irresponsible and indicative of a lack of forsight.


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## Foreversorry (Jun 5, 2013)

Hayley_stark said:


> Thank you. *I want to add that I have full ownership of my mind and my heart. My husband doesn't have the right to know what's going on in there.* It's my place. I sort out my thougts and feelings towards my tutor before they turned into words or actions. I swear its okay for people to fall and stand back again. You don't have to burn and die because you let your feelings go somewhere they shouldn't...and don't let your husband know. That's okay too.



I dont fully believe whats in the bolded print. Yes, you have ownership of your heart and mind, but to say your husband doesnt have the right to know whats going on in there? As your husband, he not only has the right to know whats in your heart and in your thoughts, but he DESERVES to know these things. He is your PARTNER. Your 'other half'. 
As a FWS, I don't believe ANYTHING should be kept secret from your spouse. Sure, its only human to think "wow, he/she is cute/attractive/hot", but to develop feelings for someone else? There should be NO secrets in a marriage.


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> Thank you. I want to add that I have full ownership of my mind and my heart. My husband doesn't have the right to know what's going on in there. It's my place. I sort out my thougts and feelings towards my tutor before they turned into words or actions. I swear its okay for people to fall and stand back again. You don't have to burn and die because you let your feelings go somewhere they shouldn't...and don't let your husband know. That's okay too.


Perhaps. But your husband does have the right to know that you are unhapy and why that is. Not vague bs..very simply

I am unhappy because A B C. 

What you will do about it and what you want from him.


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

@lordmayhem I didn't make passes. We talked 'too much' . That's all. I didn't say i love him. He didn't try to kiss me. We were just too friendly...not romantic or physical...but that is also wrong and this why I had to stop before it became something else.

And I have the right to delete a thread if I feel like its doing me more harm than good. Im thinking about deleting this one as well so my husband doesn't find out I was falling for my tutor...thats okay too...


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

Michie said:


> Clearly seeing the *militant* side of TAM today.
> 
> If she was not emotionally open and/or vunerable with Prof, its not an EA.
> 
> So militant TAM I have sexual fantasies or thoughts about men I'm a cheater? damn harsh


No but it's a clear indication that you're headed that way. The erosion of morals is exactly that- an erosion. It is a long string of little concessions and compromises, the vast majority of which are easily, easily rationalized. And the ones that are not can be carried by the momentum of the countless little sell-outs you've accumulated to that particular point. 

Your irreverence in the matter strikes me and gives you the appearance of an individual who doesn't understand the mechanics of *life*. The sentiment shouldn't be "How much can I fantasize about or do before it becomes wrong". That kind of question in and of itself belies immoral character.


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)

As this,in your words,was a mutual crush,have you discussed it with the professor?


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

Wasn't referring to sqeaker and vanguard but ok. also was more giving my thoughts on the definition of ea's.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Michie said:


> Clearly seeing the *militant* side of TAM today.
> 
> *If she was not emotionally open and/or vunerable with Prof, its not an EA.*
> 
> So militant TAM I have sexual fantasies or thoughts about men I'm a cheater? damn harsh


She said in her *DELETED* thread that she HAS BEEN emotionally open with him. So yes, it most certainly IS an EA!


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

Oh brother...


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

Vanguard said:


> No but it's a clear indication that you're headed that way. The erosion of morals is exactly that- an erosion. It is a long string of little concessions and compromises, the vast majority of which are easily, easily rationalized. And the ones that are not can be carried by the momentum of the countless little sell-outs you've accumulated to that particular point.
> 
> Your irreverence in the matter strikes me and gives you the appearance of an individual who doesn't understand the mechanics of *life*. The sentiment shouldn't be "How much can I fantasize about or do before it becomes wrong". That kind of question in and of itself belies immoral character.


Do me a favor and don't attack my intergrity as a wife, woman, and human being.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> So marriage and fidelity are only until you stop getting enough attention from your spouse? Seriously? *How needy can you be?* That shows that *YOU* are the problem.
> 
> What happend to vows of lifelong commitment? Vows to *forsake others so long as you live?* Vows to stay together for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer?
> 
> Obviously vows mean very little to some people, they are just words that they say at a ceremony and don't really mean.


This. So much this.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

A couple different takes on the topic:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...1204/flirtation-crush-emotional-affair-affair

But if it remains a matter of remotely attracted—with the emphasis on distance, both physical and emotional—then maybe the best thing to do with a crush is to laugh it back into perspective.


http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/enlightened-living/200809/emotional-infidelity

Emotional infidelity is any situation that creates or causes some degree of emotional unavailability on the part of one partner that interferes with one particular aspect of the relationship, along with the quality of the relationship as a whole.


I apologize for assuming you were in the second type of scenario. I do believe it is best to be open and honest with a true EA or PA. I won't apologize for that. Take care.


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## BK23 (Apr 17, 2013)

Hayley,

I agree that the treatment you are receiving here is a bit rough. However, I think the reality of your situation lies somewhere between your position and that of your doubters. I tend to agree that you don't need to disclose every little crush or attraction that flits across your brain. And crushing on someone else doesn't make you an adulteress, it makes you human. 

That said, what you've described seems to have either straddled the line or crossed the line between a crush and an emotional affair. You certainly flirted with disaster here. From my perspective, being open with your husband may be helpful for both of you in that it would serve as a major wake up call, and allow you two to figure out how to either fix or dissolve your marriage with your eyes open.

I admire that you recognize that what you were doing was problematic, but from what I've heard from you here, I am not optimistic about your marriage. You could both use a healthy dose of individual counseling, marriage counseling, and open and honest communication. Otherwise, your marriage (and your resolve not to cheat) will not survive.


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## KimatraAKM (May 1, 2013)

Hayley_stark said:


> @lordmayhem I didn't make passes. We talked 'too much' . That's all. I didn't say i love him. He didn't try to kiss me. We were just too friendly...not romantic or physical...but that is also wrong and this why I had to stop before it became something else.
> 
> And I have the right to delete a thread if I feel like its doing me more harm than good. Im thinking about deleting this one as well so my husband doesn't find out I was falling for my tutor...thats okay too...


Don't delete it with emotions high... Do it only if you really see no worth.

I think the article is informative. I don't see it as telling people to cheat. I see it as an article about why some women MIGHT cheat. It even says a stronger woman would jut fix the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

Michie said:


> Do me a favor and don't attack my intergrity as a wife, woman, and human being.


I'm not attacking you. I reviewed my post and it is tasteful and without insult. There are some necessary inferences that are obviously uncomfortable for you but it is not fair to say that I am insulting you. If you don't agree you don't agree and that's fine. But I'm not going to not state what I believe and have experienced to be the case.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> @lordmayhem I didn't make passes. We talked 'too much' . That's all. I didn't say i love him. He didn't try to kiss me. We were just too friendly...not romantic or physical...but that is also wrong and this why I had to stop before it became something else.
> 
> And I have the right to delete a thread if I feel like its doing me more harm than good. *Im thinking about deleting this one as well so my husband doesn't find out I was falling for my tutor...thats okay too...*


Why am I not surprised?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Why am I not surprised?


Well...I mean delete the thread, but it ain't going away.


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

Vanguard said:


> I'm not attacking you. I reviewed my post and it is tasteful and without insult. There are some necessary inferences that are obviously uncomfortable for you but it is not fair to say that I am insulting you. If you don't agree you don't agree and that's fine. But I'm not going to not state what I believe and have experienced to be the case.


I disagree as it was snide. As you try to lump me as well as any other woman with a healthy sexual imagination into a "possible cheaters."


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

Michie said:


> I disagree as it was snide. As you try to lump me as well as any other woman with a healthy sexual imagination into a "possible cheaters."


Disagreeing is your prerogative. I stand by my observations.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

Let me be snide. 

My feeling Hayley is that you are posting an article from a dubious magazine pundit who really does not support the sanctity of marriage, and you are posting it in a pro-marriage forum. 

When I hear you describe your marriage it reminds me so much of my second marriage. Me second ex-wife and I basically allowed our marriage to die through mutual neglect. It sounds to me like schooling and getting your degree have taken precedence over your marriage. It's easy to fall for a dashing, smart, well spoken older man when you probably spend more time with him than your husband. 

Let me ask you this. Say you bury this infatuation, make nice with hubby, graduate and go on to work a steady high-pressure job where you often have to work long hours that keep you away from home and husband. You've already shown that absence from your husband does not make your heart grow fonder. Quite the opposite. Are you going to latch on to the cute VP at work? See its all about your ability to maintain boundaries when your husband is not around. This is your problem. You need to work on being emotionally independent so that when your husband is not around you are not feeling emotionally starved. If you don't overcome this now you wiil find yourself in the same pickle down the road.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

I don't know about anyone else, but this makes me totally dislike the idea of eating cake any time soon.

OP...we don't condone cheating. Well, at least those of us not signed up on the AM website. If you want that kind of advice, you're going to feel like people here are pummelling you. Again, it's because this is a PRO-MARRIAGE website. Not a cheating one.


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## Michie (Aug 26, 2012)

hopefully your observations aren't bias Vanguard and you see men the same way...last sex reasearch paper i read said men on average has over 100 random sexual thought in 24 hour period...follwoing your line of thought and observation the CWI section of TAM would be flooded with 100,000 000 betrayed wives.


Good thing for the rest of us that fantasy and reality are two wholly diferent places.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Michie said:


> hopefully your observations aren't bias Vanguard and you see men the same way...last sex reasearch paper i read said men on average has over 100 random sexual thought in 24 hour period...follwoing your line of thought and observation the CWI section of TAM would be flooded with 100,000 000 betrayed wives.
> 
> 
> Good thing for the rest of us that fantasy and reality are two wholly diferent places.


Totally off topic, but I went back and read the comments and IMHO didn't see anything that appeared to be negative or demeaning towards and singling out just women or specifically you, Michie. Although I do see that you seem to be trying to stir things up. Why call things militant and put it in bold several times? Also, just because a man has these sex thoughts (maybe it did divulge this in the research and you just didn't reference it), why do you think these sex thoughts always involve someone other than the spouse, or even involve a person for that matter? A sex thought could be just that, a sex thought such as thinking about one's junk or such,


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Squeakr said:


> Totally off topic, but I went back and read the comments and IMHO didn't see anything that appeared to be negative or demeaning towards and singling out just women or specifically you, Michie. Although I do see that you seem to be trying to stir things up. Why call things militant and put it in bold several times? Also, just because a man has these sex thoughts (maybe it did divulge this in the research and you just didn't reference it), why do you think these sex thoughts always involve someone other than the spouse, or even involve a person for that matter? A sex thought could be just that, a sex thought such as thinking about *one's junk* or such,


One's Junk :rofl: is another's treasure


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

strugglinghusband said:


> One's Junk :rofl: is another's treasure


:iagree: :rofl:


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## KimatraAKM (May 1, 2013)

Clearly my advice to talk to your husband is my way of saying Bonk every man you can.. 

Work on your marriage. That's my advice. It might fail.. It might work. No condemning.. No hatred.. No projecting my situation on yours. I wish you luck!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

LostViking said:


> Let me be snide.
> See its all about your ability to maintain boundaries
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I said that as well. Emotional control can't be achieved without barriers which I unwittingly let fall to some extent with my tutor . But needs have to be met as well. That's why people get married. If needs aren't met vows are hard to keep no matter how loyal you are.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Hayley_stark said:


> In the mean time, I'm fixing my marriage so I'm not vulnerable to falling in love again with my professor. I want to be happy with my husband...i think it can still work...our feelings for each other aren't completely dead.


Haley, I'm not unsympathetic with your reasons for getting in the predicament you're in. Many, many married people start looking for alternatives when they perceive neglect by their spouse. Nor am I in the same camp as those who believe you absolutely have to tell your spouse rather than simply fixing the problem. I mean if you can correct the course before striking the mountain, why alarm the passengers by telling them they could have been killed. 
Nevertheless, unless your actions have caused your husband to treat you as follows,

_“I felt unappreciated, unattended to, unloved, second place to family and friends, lonely, a burden....physical needs were met when i asked...he is too indignant to start it... I needed to feel special for him..but he wants to be chased all the time.” _

I don't see how you can fix your marriage by changing your behavior. At best you're going back to the same environment with him behaving the same way.


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

Hayley_stark said:


> I said that as well. Emotional control can't be achieved without barriers which I unwittingly let fall to some extent with my tutor . But needs have to be met as well. That's why people get married. If needs aren't met vows are hard to keep no matter how loyal you are.


Get yourself and your hubby into counseling. Would to god I had done this with my ex-wife. We should have sought help but we didn't and our marriage died a pointless death. You and your husband need help. I think with guidance he can be the husband you want and vice versa.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

Hayley_stark said:


> I said that as well. Emotional control can't be achieved without barriers which I unwittingly let fall to some extent with my tutor . But needs have to be met as well. That's why people get married. If needs aren't met vows are hard to keep no matter how loyal you are.


Sorry but these sound like excuses to me. Did you let your boundaries fall, or did you find out that you either didn't have established boundaries or they were looser than you felt was appropriate? This is why you need to discuss with your husband so you both can set boundaries for your marriage that each agrees are acceptable. People don't get married to meet needs. Yes, when needs aren't met vows become hard to keep, but that means you need to work harder on them at that point or abandon the marriage and just move on, not seek out fulfillment elsewhere, as that is not fair to either part in a marriage. 

I get that you want to rebuild and strengthen your marriage, but by you holding this secret you are laying a weak foundation to build off of. Would you want him to be open and honest with you if he had strayed or would you be happy if he hid the secret??


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## LostViking (Mar 26, 2013)

And Hayley always take magazine articles with a grain of salt. Publishers print a lot of drivel in order to sell magazines. That is the goal. As an educated woman you need to separate the wheat from the chaff. 

What I have found is the advice that comes from true experts is quite harsh and hard to read because they are dealing with facts, not feelings. I read the article you posted and it is really belongs in an opinion blog or section of a newspaper. Her advice should not be construed as being data or fact-driven. It's a nice piece of entertainment. Something to read while waiting your turn at the salon; not an article to guide you in your marital journey.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Laila8 (Apr 24, 2013)

Hayley_stark said:


> I said that as well. Emotional control can't be achieved without barriers which I unwittingly let fall to some extent with my tutor . But needs have to be met as well. That's why people get married. If needs aren't met vows are hard to keep no matter how loyal you are.


Do you meet every single one of your husband's needs?

All I see of your attitude is "me, me me." Did you ever stop and think about his needs too?


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

Laila8 said:


> Do you meet every single one of your husband's needs?
> 
> All I see of your attitude is "me, me me." Did you ever stop and think about his needs too?


Ohhhh...you're being reasonable. How cute.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Hayley_stark said:


> I said that as well. Emotional control can't be achieved without barriers which I unwittingly let fall to some extent with my tutor . But needs have to be met as well. That's why people get married. If needs aren't met *vows are hard to keep* no matter how loyal you are.


No. Just no.

If your needs are not being met, then divorce. Do not humliate and destroy the person you vowed to stay faithful to.

Simple as this.


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

Michie said:


> hopefully your observations aren't bias Vanguard and you see men the same way...last sex reasearch paper i read said men on average has over 100 random sexual thought in 24 hour period...follwoing your line of thought and observation the CWI section of TAM would be flooded with 100,000 000 betrayed wives.
> 
> 
> Good thing for the rest of us that fantasy and reality are two wholly diferent places.


Do all the rationalizing and compartmentalizing you need to do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

Entropy3000 said:


> No. Just no.
> 
> If your needs are not being met, then divorce. Do not humliate and destroy the person you vowed to stay faithful to.
> 
> Simple as this.


My statement, and the article at the beginning of the thread, aren't a call for cheating. This is about the cause of cheating. Not to justify but the state the facts. My husband plays a part in keeping me from being attracted to other men. Same way around. That's simple and obvious. Of course I'm the one fully responsible for my actions towards other men, but controlling your thoughts and your feelings isn't that easy...to be that hungry and the meal that close, even if you can stop yourself....you'll find yourself anxious, longing, wishing and this of course makes it harder not to taste. Again not an excuse for cheating but this is how it happens.

By the way, I'm not defending the article, you can criticise or disagree as freely as you like, but it's true that 'looking outside' for women is a daring act. Everybody expects the wife to be the selfless caretaker and put herself second. Being selfish is daring for a woman, not in a positive way but it is. This tells women that they have guts to make change, now have more guts to fix the marriage or leave it. Because the cheating is actually self destructive and hurts everyone involved but getting what you need from your marriage (and of course giving as well) is ultimately the best road to your own happiness.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

at the risk of appearing soft on "cheating" - which would be in direct contrast to all my other posts - I think we need to get a better handle on the proliferation of all these ideas of 'non-physical' infidelity. e.g. I've seen claims here and elsewhere that:

i. "emotional" infidelity is just as bad or worse than engaging in sex acts with the other person.

ii. use of pornography is the same as "cheating"

iii. masturbation is the same as "cheating"

iv. having lustful thoughts or feelings is "cheating"

where iii and iv often follow from what is surely a misinterpretatation of the scripture in Matthew (notice that Christ DID NOT say that "adultery in the heart" is equally as serious as adultry in practice).

I think the vast majority of us signed up to the standard, more narrow definition of infidelity - sex acts with non-spouse. Am sure that certain emotional affairs are very damaging/alienating to a marriage. but I think the rest of this is a matter of crossing boundaries, vice infidelity per se. As one keeps redefining boundaries to be instances of the ultimate act of betrayal itself, all sorts of bad things start happening, including "all or none" thinking, perfectionism etc. My bottom line - very skeptical on continually expanding the definition of infidelity


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Hayley_stark said:


> By the way, I'm not defending the article, you can criticise or disagree as freely as you like, but it's true that 'looking outside' for women is a daring act. Everybody expects the wife to be the selfless caretaker and put herself second. *Being selfish is daring for a woman*, not in a positive way but it is. This tells women that they have guts to make change, now have more guts to fix the marriage or leave it. Because the cheating is actually self destructive and hurts everyone involved but getting what you need from your marriage (and of course giving as well) is ultimately the best road to your own happiness.


This is full of generalization and gender biass. It simply pedestalize women (therefore undermine men). And it's ultimately untrue. Specially the bolded piece.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

nuclearnightmare said:


> I think the vast majority of us signed up to the standard, more narrow definition of infidelity - sex acts with non-spouse. Am sure that certain emotional affairs are very damaging/alienating to a marriage. but I think the rest of this is a matter of crossing boundaries, vice infidelity per se. As one keeps redefining boundaries to be instances of the ultimate act of betrayal itself, all sorts of bad things start happening, including "all or none" thinking, perfectionism etc. My bottom line - very skeptical on continually expanding the definition of infidelity


I don't ascribe to this at all. I don't believe the physical act of sex is the only act of infidelity.

The whole act of breaking the trust between a husband and wife and the causes are devastating. Some people are more devastated by EA. Some are more devastated by PA.

I am not going to scientifically classify every nuance into an empirical data set to be cross referenced. That gets into the 'technically I wasn't cheating since I only did X nonsense.' Case in point here. Haley is trying to get people to agree with her based on technicalities the way a 14 year old would.

Cheating is doing something with another person, not your spouse that you know they would never approve and if they know you were doing it, they would be extremely hurt. Might not be 100% accurate but it's close.

Adultery was such an offense to a person it was given a special place and the emotional acts that lead to the physical act are just as devastating if not more.


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

MovingAhead said:


> I don't ascribe to this at all. I don't believe the physical act of sex is the only act of infidelity.
> 
> The whole act of breaking the trust between a husband and wife and the causes are devastating. Some people are more devastated by EA. Some are more devastated by PA.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

If you're scared to do something in front of your spouse, it's probably wrong to be doing.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Premise: An EA is as bad or worse than a PA.

Logic: The relationship going PA makes the EA true, not just fantasy. 

Conclusion (for me): While the EA is bad enough (with statements like I love you intensely, this pain of missing you is too hard to bear, I love you Xxx, I can't wait to see you, I want you inside me, etc.), the addition of physical intimacy makes it all "too real." 

It's all fvcked up if you ask me.


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## Hayley_stark (Jun 7, 2013)

MovingAhead said:


> Cheating is doing something with another person, not your spouse that you know they would never approve and if they know you were doing it, they would be extremely hurt. Might not be 100% accurate but it's close.


That's a nice simple statement that can help everyone create their baseline of boundaries. In addition to more barriers you feel are necessary according to the situation. For example, someone you find attractive and you see them everyday so you set more barriers, keeping exchange very minimal.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Unfortunately, I got nothing out of this thread that I didn't already know. 

Ten pages to tell everyone a woman gets horny and needs sex?


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

*Re: Re: Why Women Have Secret Lovers*



Hayley_stark said:


> My statement, and the article at the beginning of the thread, aren't a call for cheating. This is about the cause of cheating. Not to justify but the state the facts. My husband plays a part in keeping me from being attracted to other men. Same way around. That's simple and obvious. Of course I'm the one fully responsible for my actions towards other men, but controlling your thoughts and your feelings isn't that easy...to be that hungry and the meal that close, even if you can stop yourself....you'll find yourself anxious, longing, wishing and this of course makes it harder not to taste. Again not an excuse for cheating but this is how it happens.
> 
> By the way, I'm not defending the article, you can criticise or disagree as freely as you like, but it's true that 'looking outside' for women is a daring act. Everybody expects the wife to be the selfless caretaker and put herself second. Being selfish is daring for a woman, not in a positive way but it is. This tells women that they have guts to make change, now have more guts to fix the marriage or leave it. Because the cheating is actually self destructive and hurts everyone involved but getting what you need from your marriage (and of course giving as well) is ultimately the best road to your own happiness.


The cause of cheating is simple: you choose to.

Nor is it any persons job or duty to prevent you from being attracted to others... How even could they? If they could that would be controlling and abusive. Your spouse does have a duty to honor their vows (love and cherish) but relationships are built on so much more than just attraction, it's also about having a bond that acts when each of you face adversity.

Also, nobody I respect on this forum, which is nearly everyone, has ever once argued it is the role of a wife to put herself second. That is just a misconception which the writer of that article based all the premise for the argument on.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

SomedayDig said:


> :wtf: :scratchhead:
> 
> :rofl::rofl:
> 
> ...


I'm attracted to other women all the time, attraction isn't wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

BrockLanders said:


> I'm attracted to other women all the time, attraction isn't wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think attraction can be controlled. It's part of our nature. So what was the point of all of this moaning and complaining that women are attracted to men and they get horny, too?

That may be why it got so far off track. Everyone thought there had to be more to the story.

Edit: I just got this crazy notion you didn't understand what Dig was trying to say.


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## badbane (Jun 9, 2012)

The article is close. Bad marriages are cause by unfulfillment, and boredome, which can be resolved by going to the gym, getting a job, and finding something to fill your time. There are hundreds of affairs that don't follow that mold. Like all the ones where the wife is the bread winner and goes after her boss. OR both partners are working and one of them cheats. The whole SAHParent household is not an excuse anymore. It doesn't take a bold person to have an affair. A bold person would do something healthy and productive to resolve their issues. a Weak selfish person has an affair. A's resolve no problems and only adds more. After reading that article I would not be surprised if the writer was a toxic friend at the least.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I don't think attraction can be controlled. It's part of our nature. So what was the point of all of this moaning and complaining that women are attracted to men and they get horny, too?
> 
> That may be why it got so far off track. *Everyone thought there had to be more to the story.*
> 
> Edit: I just got this crazy notion you didn't understand what Dig was trying to say.


Uhhhh... there was more to the story... as was posted by others. Attraction may be normal... falling in "love" with your professor? Not so much. (Her own admission that she "fell in love with him")


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

MovingAhead said:


> Adultery was such an offense to a person it was given a special place and the emotional acts that lead to the physical act are just as devastating if not more.



OK but why would (God, bible authors) give adultery a 'special place' if at the same time emotional precursors are just as devastating, or more so. contrdictory - see what I mean?

I used the word "skeptical" because I didn't want to quite go so far as to claim that all other acts pale in comparison to the physical betrayal. but I remain just as skeptical.....tending more so even. Ascribing the words "cheating" or "infidelity" to a whole host of activities cheapens the seriousness of REAL cheating (yep, there I said it) - the kind that involves (some degree of) nudity, orgasms, physical comparison of affair partner to spouse etc. acts that will either doom the marriage or forever leave an ugly mark on it...


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## Onmyway (Apr 25, 2012)

Well, first of all, I would like to commend you for stopping things before it went to far. You may have went too far, but you did catch it before you got attached to the prof.

I have a suggestion for you though, since in your mind it wasn't an affair, it was just on the way to becoming one before you realized it and stopped everything. Plus you say that you can't get your husband to work on your marriage with you, why don't you include this as part of your talk with him?

Sit him down and tell him that you're not happy and that you want to work on your marriage as a couple. Tell him that you tried to talk to him before and he was not responsive, and you caught yourself becoming attracted to your professor, and that you stopped it from going anywhere further than an attraction because you don't want to hurt him and you want to fix your marriage.

Will it hurt him? Sure, it probably will. Will it hurt as badly as if he finds out from someone else? No it won't. 

What if you don't fix your marriage problems and you cross that line next time? Will it hurt him as badly as that? No way.

If my wife came to me and said "I haven't been happy in our marriage and I caught myself becoming attracted to OM, but I stopped myself before it became anything because I don't want to hurt you and I want to fix our marriage." I would have loved her that much more for caring enough to tell me what was going on with her. 

It's a fantasy though, I hate that she was enough of a coward to not talk to me, she was enough of a coward to get caught up in an EA then a PA with posom, instead or stopping herself when she felt the initial attraction.

Think about that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

nuclearnightmare said:


> OK but why would (God, bible authors) give adultery a 'special place' if at the same time emotional precursors are just as devastating, or more so. contrdictory - see what I mean?


Well, since you brought the Bible into it....

Matthew 5:27,28

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."


Seems to me, it was clarified to include the precursors as well. Just sayin'...


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

BrockLanders said:


> I'm attracted to other women all the time, attraction isn't wrong.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Have you professed "love" for them? THAT is what I'm talking about using her words that she was "attracted" to the guy, yet saying she "loved" him.


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## Onmyway (Apr 25, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Well, since you brought the Bible into it....
> 
> Matthew 5:27,28
> 
> ...


Also "Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife"

Covet does not signify a physical act.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seasalt (Jul 5, 2012)

Ms. Stark,

It's not possible for me to reference your fist thread but if I'm wrong correct me. I seem to remember you being complimentary about your husband and the strength of your feelings for him. In this thread however, he is no longer someone with qualities you appreciate.

Have you rewriten your marital history in the space of a couple of days to justify your current espousal of a woman's right to "self-actualization"?

Just sayin'

Seasalt


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Maricha75 said:


> Uhhhh... there was more to the story... as was posted by others. Attraction may be normal... falling in "love" with your professor? Not so much. (Her own admission that she "fell in love with him")


ahhh That's what I thought. There was more to the story. I looked up a site on deception in marriage, too. I didn't post it because I was afraid she would use it to justify her behavior. I also took the chance that I misunderstood or was assuming. Ooops.


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## Malcolm38 (Dec 25, 2012)

Not commenting on the OP, but just in general. 

Since I am human, there have been woman I've found attractive over the years. However, since I'm not 15 years old, I kept my pants on and handled it like an adult. 

As far as I'm concerned, that applies to both genders.


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## distraughtfromtexas (Apr 25, 2013)

Hayley_stark said:


> @Red Sonja When people's needs are umet they can lose sense and logic..thus becoming teenagers.


Dear precious Hayley, I do hope you can mature. If not, your marriage is a ticking time bomb. 

You say here your needs are unmet and your husband ignores you when you tell him. You use that as an excuse for wanting your professor. But now you say you don't need to tell your husband to fix the situation... So by your explanation, how do you expect to fix your situation if "your needs still aren't being met?"

Here in the real world if your needs aren't being met and you honestly try talking to your husband but he ignores you, then that's justification for separation and divorce. Not finding another man while you're still married.

Am I the only one who is curious what "needs" are being unmet?


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

Dear H_s,

I find this a fascinating thread and thank you for starting it.

It seems to me that, broadly speaking, there are three types of cheaters:

- Those who are basically decent people but who, for reasons like emotional immaturity, make bad decisions that leave them vulnerable to cheating and eventually succumb (e.g., people who hang out with toxic friends, get drunk, have a ONS and then are stricken with regret),

- Those who are basically rotten to the core (metaphorically speaking, of course) and who cheat without remorse to satisfy their own base desires, and

- Those who start out decent but who, through a process driven by pride, feelings of entitlement and impatience with their spouse gradually convince themselves (often with the help of the AP) of their spouse's lack of worth and eventually demonize their spouse until they, too, can cheat without remorse.

I think what many of the responders on this thread sense is that you, who may have started out in the first category, are slipping into the third and will, eventually, end up in the second. Granted, some of the comments are rather hostile but that is probably explained by the fact that those responder have personally experienced the demonization process.

Only you can decide what is right for you and what kind of person you want to be. Just be warned that the stories on this site are replete with examples of good women (and men) gone bad and consider that, having been warned and despite your husband's short-comings, you will have only yourself to blame if you go down the path that leads to adultery.

Wishing you the enlightenment you need to fix your marriage and, if that is not possible, the courage to leave it before you destroy your husband and yourself.


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## BrockLanders (Jul 23, 2012)

carmen ohio said:


> Dear H_s,
> 
> I find this a fascinating thread and thank you for starting it.
> 
> ...


Well said, great post.


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## JustGrinding (Oct 26, 2012)

BrockLanders said:


> Well said, great post.


True. 

Unfortunately, along with the pages-upon-pages of sage advice Hayley has already received to this point, it appears to be "pearls before swine."


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## carmen ohio (Sep 24, 2012)

JustGrinding said:


> True.
> 
> Unfortunately, along with the pages-upon-pages of sage advice Hayley has already received to this point, it appears to be "pearls before swine."


JustGrinding, we don't know that. Yes, she seems to have resisted some of the advice but we don't know what is going on in her head. Hayley did, after all come to TAM for help. I think it our obligation to provide our advice freely and frankly but in as nonjudgemental a manner as is possible. At a minimum, I think we should avoid name-calling.

Don't you agree?


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

carmen ohio said:


> JustGrinding, we don't know that. Yes, she seems to have resisted some of the advice but we don't know what is going on in her head. Hayley did, after all come to TAM for help. I think it our obligation to provide our advice freely and frankly but in as nonjudgemental a manner as is possible. * At a minimum, I think we should avoid name-calling.*
> 
> Don't you agree?


Name calling? Have you never heard the words "pearls before swine"? It is a biblical reference (Matthew 7:6). The reference could just as easily have been "fallen on deaf ears" or "like talking to a brick wall"...or any other similar saying. JG wasn't calling her a pig (swine). He was referring to the likelihood, as evidenced by some of the posts justifying her EA, that the valuable information (pearls) are being given to one who has no use for them (the swine). Has nothing to do with name calling.


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