# Made an appointment with lawyer for consultation, finally!



## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

So, I made an appointment with a lawyer for an initial consultation. The entire process of divorce is so foreign and overwhelming to me that I'm not even sure what I should be asking about. I'm hoping to do this as amicably as possible and not empty our entire savings account just to get divorced. We are on very friendly terms (too much so at times I think but that's another thread) and so far anything I've asked of my STBX he's given me without complaint. I know he feels very guilty about what he's done so I sort of want to capitalize on that now and forge out an agreement before that fades. I'm not looking to fleece him at all, I just don't want to fight about anything.

Any tips on what I should ask the lawyer about?

I need/want advice on custody (50/50), no alimony, ( I make slightly more than him) sharing our house until our youngest graduates in 3 years (2 separate apartments)evening up the retirement accounts, and health insurance. Anything I'm forgetting??

Thanks!!!


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## Absurdist (Oct 10, 2014)

Sigh

Deep sigh

From my PMs you know that life shouldn’t be this way.

NMJ most divorces are number and tax crunching and differ from state to state.

If you make more money, you may owe spousal support if you make more money.

Tax wise, who will claim a minor child as a dependent? It will make a great deal of difference on your tax return.

Who owns the real estate that is your residence? In some states there’s a marriage tax component.

Attorneys Fees?? Who pays? It differs from state to state.

Child custody? From what I remember you only have one minor child.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Absurdist said:


> Sigh
> 
> Deep sigh
> 
> ...


I make at most 5K more than him. I can increase that quite a bit by working extra hours (I only work 32 right now) but I will wait until after the divorce to do that. I don't think he'll ask for alimony. It bothers him enough that I make more, he won't want to call attention to that. LOL I hadn't thought about tax returns, thank you. The home is owned by both of us. The plan is keep it until our youngest graduates and then we'll either sell it and split the profit or he can buy me out if he wants and can afford it which I don't think he'll be able to do. Attorney's fees I'm hoping to keep as low as possible by using mediation and we'll split that. We have 2 minor children and I think he'll be ok with 50/50 custody and no child support either way. They are 15 and 17 so very soon we'll only have one minor child. At present we are splitting the days on who is responsible to feed them dinner. We have both been contributing to their breakfast, snack, and lunches about evenly. As I said, I'm not looking to fleece him, I just want to get out of this marriage with minimal fuss and expense. I'm sure everyone wants that though. But if he's amenable to what I'm asking for it might be an attainable goal.

The only issue he might give me push back on is their dance bill. He has never been happy about how much we pay for it. But, if he really doesn't want to contribute I will pay for it alone. My 17yo only has one year left and then my 15yo has 3. I can swing it alone if I do extra shifts. It's extremely important to my girls and so I'll do what I have to so they can continue. He might surprise me though. 

I don't really expect many issues from him. Just to show his way of thinking, when we discussed splitting up, he was prepared at that moment to split the bank account but give me the entirety of the inheritance we got from my mother. It has been in our joint savings for over a year. My thought was that she left it to us both so we should split it but he felt that it's my mother, I should have it. That's just the kind of person he is...I hope that attitude continues throughout the divorce.

ETA: Thank you so much for your help...and for the PM's. Always helps when someone is kind


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## Adelais (Oct 23, 2013)

Inheritance goes to the child of the deceased (by my state's laws), and is not considered joint property unless it gets mingled in the joint monies or is used to purchase something which then becomes joint property.

The judge will look at that inheritance money and think you are getting more than you're 50% if you can't prove it is part of an inheritance. Have your husband sign something confirming the origin of the $ and that it isn't joint $.

When I was talking about divorce several years ago my husband was willing to give me pretty much everything. (He had an affair and wanted to make up for hurting me.) My lawyer discouraged me from taking more than 50% but also told me to not co-mingle my inheritance and keep all related paperwork.

The lawyer said that when a judge sees that the property division is lopsided he will override it to make it even. Judges know that sometimes a spouse will give the other one more because they are not thinking right because of emotional duress, regret, trying to win them back, etc.







Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk


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## Absurdist (Oct 10, 2014)

Jaime I don’t know what state you’re in. It could be helpful if you can share. Usually an inheritance is not considered to be marital property notwithstanding the fact you’ve commingled those funds in joint accounts. As to custody, your kids are old enough to determine where they want to live. Since you live on a cottage on the marital property, this may not be an issue.

Peace to you:


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

If the ownership of the house is shared, one complication will be how expenses are handled. Make sure you have a plan for how repairs will be paid for. Will it be 50/50? Proportional to each person's income? or whatever. You may want to put in something that disagreements over the house expenses will be resolved through a 3rd party mediator. Even if you both agree that the broken AC needs to be replaced, you may not agree on what the repair should be (e.g high quality expensive or low quality cheap). And then selling the house may have more issues since there are often repairs/improvements that need to be made and each of you may have different opinions on how much to spend for that.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Do y'all have disability/life insurance policies in case something happens to one of you? His not wanting to pay for what he doesn't like for the girls (dancing) could be an example of future confrontations. College and other expenses (weddings) are coming and health insurance is a big issue as you know in the health field. Sounds like you are wisely asking for help to keep his controlling to a minimum.

His 'guilt' of misleading/deceiving you will fade away as he decides to live a different life. I am so sorry for your pain and being manipulated and used. You deserve better--sooner in my opinion. Seems co-parenting could be done in circumstances more favorable to you--but you have explained your position


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Thank you @wilson, I'm ashamed to say I hadn't thought of that. My girlfriend and her ex still own their house together and are planning to sell when the youngest graduates. They are on year 5 of this and have 3 more to go. Her ex refuses to ever help with any of the home repairs as he doesn't live there and feels since he pays half the mortgage but also has to pay for an apartment she should have to pay for the repairs alone. 
@Absurdist, we live in Massachusetts. My kids will stay in the main house, I am in an apartment that is connected to that house. You can walk into my apartment from the main family room. 
@Araucaria the inheritance money is already co-mingled in our joint account. I have another inheritance from an uncle that is separate. I think I will take all of that but split the money from my mother. She lived with us for many years and loved my husband quite a bit. I used to joke she loved him more than me. In his mind it should all go to me, but I feel like we should split it. He ended up not being a very good husband, but he was an awesome son in law. When my mother was ill he did a lot to help take care of her, brought her flowers frequently, etc. She would hate what he's done to me but still love him. 

I appreciate the advice. It helps to go in with a list of questions and concerns.


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## 20yr (Apr 19, 2019)

Don't forget college - you need to come up with a plan for how much each of you will contribute to tuition.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

sunsetmist said:


> Do y'all have disability/life insurance policies in case something happens to one of you? His not wanting to pay for what he doesn't like for the girls (dancing) could be an example of future confrontations. College and other expenses (weddings) are coming and health insurance is a big issue as you know in the health field. Sounds like you are wisely asking for help to keep his controlling to a minimum.
> 
> His 'guilt' of misleading/deceiving you will fade away as he decides to live a different life. I am so sorry for your pain and being manipulated and used. You deserve better--sooner in my opinion. Seems co-parenting could be done in circumstances more favorable to you--but you have explained your position


Yes, we have policies on each other already. We actually have policies through our jobs and private policies that we pay for separately. We will lose the policies through our jobs so we may need to increase the private ones. Health insurance is one thing on my list to discuss with the lawyer. He currently covers the family. If possible I want to stay on his policy. (Legal in my state if the company agrees to it) 

I am aware his guilt will fade which is why I want to get going on this now. As for co-parenting, I am making a huge sacrifice by staying in this house but I'm doing it for my children. It's 3 years of my life, it will suck but I can do it. As soon as the youngest is off to college, the house goes on the market. I hope to be able to downsize into something I can afford but still have my kids with me when they want to be with me. My oldest will probably want to live with her boyfriend by then so it would just be 2 kids. A three bedroom would be perfect.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Trying to keep up with this story. Am I right in understanding the following:


There is a lack of sex in the marriage.

You suspect your husband of being gay because he was on gay hook up sites but there is no evidence of him being gay or having actually cheated.

He does not want to divorce but is being very amicable with your need to divorce.

He was a good son-in-law to your late mother.

He is a good father.

He does not want your inheritance or alimony from you even though you earn more.

Now while I understand that point 1 is bad enough to merit think about separating and divorce, is there anything else that I am missing ? Has either of you got somebody else in mind or is it the sexlessness only?


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

manfromlamancha said:


> Trying to keep up with this story. Am I right in understanding the following:
> 
> 
> There is a lack of sex in the marriage.
> ...


That is it in a nutshell, except he has admitted to sexual encounters with men prior to the marriage. I did not learn of these until I found the hookup site. I have nobody else in mind (nowhere near ready for that) and I have no idea if he does. I suspect not only because he doesn't act like a man who has someone on the side. He goes out about twice a week and once is with my brother and the other is with our long time friends. They do trivia night at the local hangout. To be honest, I don't really care if he does other than I'd want him to be careful bringing any new partners around our children, just as I plan to be if I'm ever lucky enough to find someone else. The ? infidelity piece of this is incidental to me. That he broke his vows doesn't matter to me because he had no business making them in the first place. 

But to say it's just the sexlessness is a huge understatement. It's the fact that he lied to me for years about something so fundamental about himself. If he had started a medication that caused his libido to drop I could work with that, I can't work with him hiding who he really is and the fact that who he really is doesn't want me. I could write a book about how that's made me feel.


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

You may have to pay child support to him if you make more and he covers their health insurance. It doesn’t matter if you he doesn’t want it, it is just a state formula. 

Besides the big things others have mentioned, you also need to layout small things that add up outside of dance - like cell phones, prom dresses, prom tickets, senior portraits, yearbooks, class rings etc...and drivers ed, permit fee, license fee, auto insurance for the kids. 

Paying for college - there is more to consider than just agreeing how much each of you can pay. When parents are divorced only one parent - the one with primary custody - has to have their income and assets counted against them for financial aid. Since you will both have equal time you will basically pick who has less, doesn’t matter who claims them for taxes. So while it is beyond sweet that you want to share your mother’s inheritance with him because of their relationship, it might make more sense for you to keep it and use him as the custodial parent for financial aid because he will have less assets, which will give your kids more money. Sorry to add another thing to research and think about.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Bluesclues said:


> You may have to pay child support to him if you make more and he covers their health insurance. It doesn’t matter if you he doesn’t want it, it is just a state formula.
> 
> Besides the big things others have mentioned, you also need to layout small things that add up outside of dance - like cell phones, prom dresses, prom tickets, senior portraits, yearbooks, class rings etc...and drivers ed, permit fee, license fee, auto insurance for the kids.
> 
> Paying for college - there is more to consider than just agreeing how much each of you can pay. When parents are divorced only one parent - the one with primary custody - has to have their income and assets counted against them for financial aid. Since you will both have equal time you will basically pick who has less, doesn’t matter who claims them for taxes. So while it is beyond sweet that you want to share your mother’s inheritance with him because of their relationship, it might make more sense for you to keep it and use him as the custodial parent for financial aid because he will have less assets, which will give your kids more money. Sorry to add another thing to research and think about.


Please, don't be sorry!! These are the things I need to hear about. Thank you!!!


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

notmyjamie said:


> That is it in a nutshell, except he has admitted to sexual encounters with men prior to the marriage. I did not learn of these until I found the hookup site. I have nobody else in mind (nowhere near ready for that) and I have no idea if he does. I suspect not only because he doesn't act like a man who has someone on the side. He goes out about twice a week and once is with my brother and the other is with our long time friends. They do trivia night at the local hangout. To be honest, I don't really care if he does other than I'd want him to be careful bringing any new partners around our children, just as I plan to be if I'm ever lucky enough to find someone else. The ? infidelity piece of this is incidental to me. That he broke his vows doesn't matter to me because he had no business making them in the first place.
> 
> But to say it's just the sexlessness is a huge understatement. It's the fact that he lied to me for years about something so fundamental about himself. If he had started a medication that caused his libido to drop I could work with that, I can't work with him hiding who he really is and the fact that who he really is doesn't want me. I could write a book about how that's made me feel.


Thank you for the clarification. Please don't misunderstand me in that I am not trying to understate the importance of the sexlessness. In fact it is one of the main things that undermines marriages (more so than infidelity) in terms of occurrence and I agree it is a fundamental part of the vows he made and certainly important enough to end a marriage. I was just trying to get the full picture. 

He doesn't sound like a bad guy, just one that is either confused or ashamed (or both) about his sexuality and is trying to cope with it. Also his coping skills spill over into his lying about things and that is part of the weakness he has. My trying to understand it was as a result of a post you made about him on another thread where it seemed like you positively hated him and that he was a complete POS. This was a thread about whether you would give up your spouse in exchange for a billionaire that you were not particularly attracted to where you said you would give him up in a heartbeat.

He definitely needs counselling and this is something for him going forward (not with a view to saving this marriage).

This is really a sad story but not uncommon unfortunately. I know many, many men who were curious about bi and even gay porn but did not act on it. And even more who experimented with it at say, college or uni. What made you attracted to him in the first place might well be worth remembering. It may be that it was all a complete lie but I suspect the truth is somewhere in between.

I wish both of you happiness going forward as it does not seem like he is going to be a ********* about giving you what you want going forward.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

manfromlamancha said:


> He doesn't sound like a bad guy, just one that is either confused or ashamed (or both) about his sexuality and is trying to cope with it. Also his coping skills spill over into his lying about things and that is part of the weakness he has. My trying to understand it was as a result of a post you made about him on another thread where it seemed like you positively hated him and that he was a complete POS. This was a thread about whether you would give up your spouse in exchange for a billionaire that you were not particularly attracted to where you said you would give him up in a heartbeat.
> 
> He definitely needs counselling and this is something for him going forward (not with a view to saving this marriage).
> 
> ...



How I feel about him vacillates back and forth from apathy to hatred and stops everywhere in between. I'm sure going back over my old posts would show this. The truth is that I agree with you, he's a confused guy who doesn't know how to deal with his own feelings and unfortunately, he pulled me into his dysfunction. I've said it before though, he truly has no idea of how much he has damaged me. On a calm day I can admit that he does love me. I just don't think he's attracted to me, he may have been in the beginning, he certainly seemed like it. But that was then and this is now. Something happened to change his desires drastically and I have no idea what, nor will I ever know I'm sure. It doesn't really matter anymore. I just want to be free to live an honest life. The trading him in for a billionaire post was meant to be humorous. The truth is I wouldn't trade him in for a billionaire unless said billionaire had actual feelings and attraction for me. I've already lived for years in a marriage without passion. I have no desire to do so again, no matter how much money is involved.

I have recommended counseling for him several times. I don't know if he's taken my advice. I agree, the goal in this is not to save our marriage. It is simply for him to come to accept who and what he is. The better adjusted and happy he is, the better it is for himself and my kids.


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## 20yr (Apr 19, 2019)

@notmyjamie - any updates? Just thinking of you.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

"I don't really expect many issues from him. Just to show his way of thinking, when we discussed splitting up, he was prepared at that moment to split the bank account but give me the entirety of the inheritance we got from my mother. It has been in our joint savings for over a year. My thought was that she left it to us both so we should split it but he felt that it's my mother, I should have it. That's just the kind of person he is...I hope that attitude continues throughout the divorce."

I say take the money and run. You married him in good faith that this was til death do us part. He is the one who changed his mind. 

You and him built a life on 2 incomes I presume. Now you will be cut to one. 

He may get future inheritances after you two divorce that you will not be eligible for. 

You are needing to rebuild your life and feather your new nest and your girls. 

Take the inheritance money and keep it.

If he doesn't want to pay for dance stuff so be it.

No need to pick up extra shifts.

WHat if you get sick, what if you have some sort of prolonged illness.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

20yr said:


> @notmyjamie - any updates? Just thinking of you.


We have decided to go with mediation. Due to some scheduling stuff and a health scare with our daughter (she's fine now) our first session is not until next week. In the meantime he has agreed to sit down and go over as much stuff as possible so we can spend the least amount of time with the mediator as possible. That's where this thread will be most helpful. Thanks again everyone!!! I'm hoping we can do that in the next few days. 

Again, he's doing pretty much everything I've asked so I'm hoping it will go well. The only thing he has asked me for is to keep an extra amount of money in our joint account just in case something comes up which seemed reasonable so I agreed. 
@FieryHairedLady mentioned the inheritance money. The truth is that it's not that large an amount. My mother gave me $100K when we bought this house. That was my real inheritance. She also paid for the inlaw apartment I now live in to be built. The equity we get will end up getting split between us and that's just life. I can deal. We decided to use it for the dance bill which we paid yesterday. Dance is very expensive so there is only about $4k left. I'm keeping it in the joint account for now but will probably take some out next month. I already took $1k when I opened my own account and before we paid the dance bill. So I guess I'm getting a little more than him. But really, the bulk is going towards ours kids which is fine with me. Our regular savings will be split between us. And I am taking all the money from my uncle for myself.

He figured out my share of the bills but we have to go over that as he left things like his Netflix, amazon prime, hulu bills on there. I don't want to pay for that. He also left my car payment and I just want to assume that by myself. I don't expect him to split that with me. We do have some credit card bills (because he's the worst money manager ever  ) and I want to just split it up into his and mine accounts. I know I'll have my portion paid off by the end of the year and he'll still have the same damn total but that won't be my issue. In my first month managing most of my own stuff I've saved more than he used to save for us in 6 months :scratchhead: Truth be told all my bills were paid with one paycheck so the other is for food, fun, and savings. I'm sure some stuff will come up that I hadn't anticipated (life insurance bill comes every 3 months for example) but that can get paid out of savings. 

This will be a difficult conversation because the way I want to split things up shows a clear separation of us as a couple. He just wants to take our usual monthly bills and split them. He still just doesn't get that we're over and that I want my own life now. Or he gets why he just doesn't want to accept it. Either way, that's his problem, not mine. I'm not trying to be a jerk about it I just want my life back. I don't think that's too much to ask after 25 years of lies.

As for if something were to happen to me in the future my plan is to pay off my debt and start saving as much as possible and also increase my contribution to my 401K. If the worst were to happen to me, my sister is loaded and would take care of me until I got back on my feet. Not that I'd ever want to have to rely on that but it's nice to know I wouldn't be homeless or starve and she wouldn't let that happen to my kids either. 

As for extra shifts, I will be working a ton of them this summer whether I need them or not. We are getting very busy and we are short staffed so every time I turn around I'm getting "asked" to come in early or stay late. I can't abandon a patient so I do it. It's like this every summer. By the end of the summer I'll have a nice savings account built up and a lot of the debt paid off unlike other summers. I never realized how bad my STBX was at managing money. I wish I'd done it from the beginning. Live and learn...I'll never merge money with someone again.


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## 20yr (Apr 19, 2019)

notmyjamie said:


> We have decided to go with mediation. Due to some scheduling stuff and a health scare with our daughter (she's fine now) our first session is not until next week. In the meantime he has agreed to sit down and go over as much stuff as possible so we can spend the least amount of time with the mediator as possible. That's where this thread will be most helpful. Thanks again everyone!!! I'm hoping we can do that in the next few days.
> 
> Again, he's doing pretty much everything I've asked so I'm hoping it will go well. The only thing he has asked me for is to keep an extra amount of money in our joint account just in case something comes up which seemed reasonable so I agreed.
> 
> ...


Regarding the car payment - if it is a loan and he owns his car free and clear, he should be splitting that liability with you.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

20yr said:


> Regarding the car payment - if it is a loan and he owns his car free and clear, he should be splitting that liability with you.



During our marriage, I have gotten four new cars and he's gotten two. So I figure I owe him another 2 cars LOL And I used joint money for the very large down payment. For me, this is about asserting my independence from him. The payment is not that high...I can well afford it. 

You do make a good point though. I'll think it over some more. Depends on how things shake out at mediation. Maybe I'll leave it as a joint expense until after the mediation appointment.


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## Absurdist (Oct 10, 2014)

notmyjamie said:


> During our marriage, I have gotten four new cars and he's gotten two. So I figure I owe him another 2 cars LOL And I used joint money for the very large down payment. For me, this is about asserting my independence from him. The payment is not that high...I can well afford it.
> 
> You do make a good point though. I'll think it over some more. Depends on how things shake out at mediation. Maybe I'll leave it as a joint expense until after the mediation appointment.


NMJ - I’m a lawyer but not a mediator. The lawyers in my office who are trained mediators say divorce mediations are the toughest. Not because of the financial components but the emotional ones. This will be tough for all. Based on the totality of your posts, your husband still has an agape love for you. Unfortunately, he cheated you out of the erotic/intimate love a husband should have for a wife. Thus this will be hard. My prayers are with you.

Now a question. Why did you build the mother-in-law apartment? Was a parent going to live there or was this something in the back of your mind? I still can’t wrap my mind around living there after you’re divorced. To me, that would be exceedingly painful.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Absurdist said:


> NMJ - I’m a lawyer but not a mediator. The lawyers in my office who are trained mediators say divorce mediations are the toughest. Not because of the financial components but the emotional ones. This will be tough for all. Based on the totality of your posts, your husband still has an agape love for you. Unfortunately, he cheated you out of the erotic/intimate love a husband should have for a wife. Thus this will be hard. My prayers are with you.
> 
> Now a question. Why did you build the mother-in-law apartment? Was a parent going to live there or was this something in the back of your mind? I still can’t wrap my mind around living there after you’re divorced. To me, that would be exceedingly painful.



Yes, I am both looking forward to and dreading this mediation. I don't want to hurt him. I just want my life back. But in order to get that, I must leave him which I know hurts him. And that's just so ironic isn't it? The whole reason I'm leaving is because HE doesn't want me, but it hurts him when I leave. It's so screwed up.

The mother in law apartment was built for my mother. She lived in it for the last 15 years. I have a love hate relationship with our arrangement. I hate being so close to him and I hate the lack of privacy it affords me. If I was living somewhere else I could have 10 guys over a week if I wanted (I wouldn't, for the record) but living here I will have to keep anyone I meet out of my home. 

I love the fact that my kids have not been uprooted and yet they are still right here with me. My youngest had a health issue recently and we were both able to be here for her with no issues about who had custody or visitation. They feel like they still have both of their parents 100% accessible. Our entire "custody" arrangement is so laid back because of the close proximity so my kids aren't dealing with a lot of the issues a lot of children of divorce deal with at times. 

And because I took the in law and not the main house, I don't have to deal with their messes. LOL My apartment is always just the way I left it whereas I know my ex will come home after a long day to find the sink piled up with dishes and crap everywhere. Of course the downside is that my apartment is small so it would be hard to have friends over whereas he still has the large living area to entertain people in. 

All in all I'm managing. I'm doing it for my kids and only for my kids. I hope someday they'll appreciate it. But once they are all done with school I'll be very anxious to sell and move on.


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## FieryHairedLady (Mar 24, 2011)

Well I am glad you have the finances all figured out. Surprised you didn't have him take the apt and you keep the main home for now. 

Did you say it is only a few more years then you two will sell? 

Does this mean you have to see him daily til then?

May be kind of hard to heal.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

FieryHairedLady said:


> Well I am glad you have the finances all figured out. Surprised you didn't have him take the apt and you keep the main home for now.
> 
> Did you say it is only a few more years then you two will sell?
> 
> ...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The only thing I have to add is to make sure that this house you're not living in doesn't end up weighing you down. If he's that bad with finances, and your kids are living there, odds are you're going to be asked at some point to bail "them" out, for the kids' sakes. Find a way in mediation to protect against that so as to not have the kids' well-being a potential Albatross; maybe something like whoever's still at home comes to live with you. It might be good for them, to see what a sane, healthy living arrangement looks like, so they don't end up mess makers for life.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

I'm a little confused, what money did you use to pay the dance bill? Because I saw the $100k figure then that you only had $4k left after pay for dance, and I about choked, lol! I know cheer was damn expenisive, but $90k?? NO, lol...

When you sell the house, does that apartment go with it? Or is it 100% separate? Just curious.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

3Xnocharm said:


> I'm a little confused, what money did you use to pay the dance bill? Because I saw the $100k figure then that you only had $4k left after pay for dance, and I about choked, lol! I know cheer was damn expenisive, but $90k?? NO, lol...
> 
> When you sell the house, does that apartment go with it? Or is it 100% separate? Just curious.


LOL...no, dance is not $96,000!! The $100K was given to us by my mother 16 years ago and we used it as a down payment on our house. She gave us our inheritance early. We bought the house with the intention of adding the in law apartment for her. She paid for the in law to be built, approx $70K. Then when she passed away, I got a small amount of cash and that's what was used for the dance bill with some left over. 

The in law was built in what was our 2 car attached garage. You access the apartment via the family room of the main house. It is a one bedroom apartment with kitchen, living room and bathroom. It's very nice actually. So yes, it sells with the house.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Divorce is forever. I don't know how your state handles divorce, but in my state revisiting a divorce agreement is both expensive and unlikely to result in a change. So, you want to future proof whatever agreement you come to in mediation.

For example, you want to split the debt, yes? He have his accounts and you have yours. This has to be laid out in detail or you could end up responsible for some of his debt anyway. You want to fully close joint accounts that you don't intend to keep and remove each other from accounts you each do intend to keep asap. You really want to make sure it has been done. Independent verification, don't take his word for it. If he's bad with finances or a procrastinator, well, that means you check and double check to be sure.

I am in the keep your money camp. Your inheritance paid for a chunk of the house. Your mom paid for a major renovation/ improvement that seriously boosted the equity. He'll be getting a large share of your total inheritance when the house sells and the equity is split. I think you should keep that tidbit you got left over just in case something comes up.

Have you spoken to a lawyer about college? Whether or not divorced parents are ordered to pay for all or a portion of college really depends on the state. Some states see college expenses as optional or conditional and do not include college expenses in a divorce decree. In other states, it will be included but enforcement is a bear. So, check thoroughly into that.

Also, make sure everything includes a date. For example, if your youngest leaves for college in August 2022 and you want the house on the market by September 30, 2022 then you need that in black and white because the court can't enforce vague orders and you have no idea how well you'll be getting along in 3 years.

Let me say that again. You have no idea how well you'll be getting along in 3 years. You really want everything firmly nailed down, in writing, absent ambiguity. I learned this the hard way. As far as the court is concerned, if it's not clearly spelled out it is not enforceable. You want terms, account numbers, dates.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Thank you so much to everyone for your advice. It's really making me feel more prepared to go to mediation next week. You've all given me so much to think about. 

I'm thinking about adding something in the divorce decree that in 3 years we will each have the option to buy the other out. If I play my cards right I may be able to swing that. I'm sure he won't, but I might. It will require some serious saving and extra shifts but I can do it. I don't know that I'll want to do it at that time, but it's worth it to put the option on the table right? Can something like that be added?


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## Absurdist (Oct 10, 2014)

notmyjamie said:


> Thank you so much to everyone for your advice. It's really making me feel more prepared to go to mediation next week. You've all given me so much to think about.
> 
> I'm thinking about adding something in the divorce decree that in 3 years we will each have the option to buy the other out. If I play my cards right I may be able to swing that. I'm sure he won't, but I might. It will require some serious saving and extra shifts but I can do it. I don't know that I'll want to do it at that time, but it's worth it to put the option on the table right? Can something like that be added?



Of course it can be added. Take the marriage component out. This is simply contractual negotiation at this point. Make sure the option language is clear and precise.

1. The date the option can be exercised.

2, The manner in which the option is exercised i.e. certified mail, delivery by a nationally recognized courier or personal delivery. Quite frankly I would require some written evidence. I was an attorney in a lawsuit where one party denied receipt of the option letter so be careful.

3. Who pays for the closing costs? This needs to be spelled out in black and white. Things like recording fees, title insurance, transfer taxes, loan assumption fees and the like should be discussed and made a part of the agreement.

4. After closing, the time the selling party must vacate the property i.e. the selling party must vacate the property and surrender sole possession to the buying party within x number of days from closing.

NMJ - from what I understand, this house has much more meaning to your stbx than you. Would you really want to do this? You would be rattling around in a house full of ghosts and bad memories.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Absurdist said:


> Of course it can be added. Take the marriage component out. This is simply contractual negotiation at this point. Make sure the option language is clear and precise.
> 
> 1. The date the option can be exercised.
> 
> ...



Nope, not sure at all. But I'd like the option just in case. You never know what can happen in three years. And my mother always told me "always keep your options open" and she was smart lady so I've tried to take that advice as much as I can.:smile2:


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

notmyjamie said:


> I'm thinking about adding something in the divorce decree that in 3 years we will each have the option to buy the other out. If I play my cards right I may be able to swing that. I'm sure he won't, but I might. It will require some serious saving and extra shifts but I can do it. I don't know that I'll want to do it at that time, but it's worth it to put the option on the table right? Can something like that be added?


Keep in mind that he could use that same option to buy you out. Maybe he wins the lottery or gets an inheritance. Don't make the option have a fixed value or be too advantageous to take. For example, if it was for a fixed amount (e.g. $100k), then if the house explodes in value he could get 100% of the equity for that $100k option price. 

I could see having something which says that when the house goes on the market, either of you have the option of first refusal on any offers. So if you guys own the house clear and someone offers $500k, then either of you have the option of taking ownership of the house by giving the other person the $250k they would have gotten from the sale. If you both want the house, then the house is sold and you split the equity.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

wilson said:


> Keep in mind that he could use that same option to buy you out. Maybe he wins the lottery or gets an inheritance. Don't make the option have a fixed value or be too advantageous to take. For example, if it was for a fixed amount (e.g. $100k), then if the house explodes in value he could get 100% of the equity for that $100k option price.
> 
> I could see having something which says that when the house goes on the market, either of you have the option of first refusal on any offers. So if you guys own the house clear and someone offers $500k, then either of you have the option of taking ownership of the house by giving the other person the $250k they would have gotten from the sale. If you both want the house, then the house is sold and you split the equity.


That is pretty much what I was thinking. There is no way in HELL I'd choose an amount now when I have no idea what the house will be worth in 3 years. 

Unless he wins that lottery I don't see him affording the house alone. But, three years is a long time and he may find someone he wants to buy it with and that would be fine too. I'm not all that attached to the house myself, but I know in three years the kids won't be ready to be out on their own. If I can swing it it might be nice to keep the house and let them stay where they've grown up until they are ready to fly. 

Another big draw for staying here is that all my friends are here, we are very close neighborhood. Except that it's becoming painfully obvious to me that my neighbors are taking STBX in the divorce and not myself. He gets invited to things all the time and I get a "maybe you could stop by for a bit?" type invitations. When I show up, people stand around at the door as if they expect me to say hello and then leave. So I do. I'm branching out and finding new friends. 

I just want to keep my options open as I said. After three years being trapped next to him I might just want to move to Alaska to get the heck away from him. :laugh:


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

UPDATE!! Had our mediation consultation appointment.

The good news is that it went well. I really liked the mediator who was assigned to us. She went over lots of stuff with us and she brought up most of the suggestions listed here before I had a chance to bring them up. I brought up a few things and she was very impressed. LOL Based on our conversation she feels that we will get it all done in one 2 hour session. Although I never did sit down with my STBX prior to the meeting we were on the same page about everything except I don't think he had thought about the retirement accounts. When she asked he sort of gave a start until I said "well, we cashed out my first account to buy our first house" and I heard him say under his breath "oh, yeah...I forgot about that." Then she mentioned evening them out and he seemed on board with that so I don't think he'll fight me on it. He even said he'd agree to split the cost of dance going forward. And she wasn't 100% certain but she thinks that his particular company will allow him to continue to cover me on his family plan so that would be good. He even agreed that after the kids go off the plan he'd be fine with continuing to cover me if I paid the difference between a single plan and what it would cost to add me.

The good/bad news is that on the way home I told him it's time to update the kids and tell them we are proceeding with a divorce. My older two seem reconciled to the fact that we are done but my youngest is still thinking this is a temporary split. Then he SHOCKED me when he asked about telling them the true reason for our divorce. I said "well, that's on you, you have to decide when or if you're ready" and he said he wants to tell them. So I asked if he'd come to accept who and what he is and he said he'd been in therapy for months and that yes, he's accepted it. I had a suspicion he was in therapy but I wasn't sure. So he wants to tell our kids and while that's really good because I don't want to keep secrets from them I am not sure I'm ready to be outed to the world as a woman who got duped by a gay guy. I guess I'd better get myself ready for that fallout. I think he wants me to be there when he tells the kids and I said ok even though I really don't. I'm doing it for them, not for him and I just have to keep telling myself that. He asked about summer vacations and I told him I did not want to take one with him. He seemed sad but I just don't want to play happy family with him and confuse the kids.

So, she estimated if we are able to finish everything up in one session and start in the next couple weeks I'll officially be a divorced women by the beginning of next year and that was very good news for me. I just want my life back.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

So glad to hear things are moving forward for you! And for him to finally want to come out is just amazing,
Even though I know it’s awkward for you. I wonder if your kids already suspect the truth about him. 




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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Great update. I don't think you should feel like you got duped by a gay guy when he wasn't quite aware of it himself.


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## Taxman (Dec 21, 2016)

Speaking in generalities does not help any pre divorcee. NMJ, things vary massively from state to state, and this board encompasses a lot of different countries, each with their own divorce idiosyncrasies. Make a first appointment with a number of attorneys. Please do not settle on one immediately. That is the extent of my advice. This is an arduous and expensive process, not just financially, but also emotionally. Find a representative that you are both comfortable with, and who gives you a sense of competency. (Please, I have worked with several members of the bar, who really should be out digging ditches).


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

turnera said:


> Great update. I don't think you should feel like you got duped by a gay guy when he wasn't quite aware of it himself.


He knew. He just didn't want to accept it. Big difference. He has admitted to sexual encounters with men prior to meeting me. He enjoyed them, he just didn't want to enjoy them. He wanted to live a straight life and thought he could suppress his true proclivities. He was wrong.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Taxman said:


> Speaking in generalities does not help any pre divorcee. NMJ, things vary massively from state to state, and this board encompasses a lot of different countries, each with their own divorce idiosyncrasies. Make a first appointment with a number of attorneys. Please do not settle on one immediately. That is the extent of my advice. This is an arduous and expensive process, not just financially, but also emotionally. Find a representative that you are both comfortable with, and who gives you a sense of competency. (Please, I have worked with several members of the bar, who really should be out digging ditches).


Thanks Taxman. My divorce is very amicable and the plan is to split everything 50/50. Due to the fact that we make almost the same amount of money we are waving alimony. We are also waving the right to revisit the settlement after the divorce so if/when I start to earn more, he won't be coming back asking me for some of it. That was my one big worry as I have much more earning potential that my STBX has. I currently work 32 hours a week but I have the option of adding more anytime I want. Going to 40 will bring my earnings significantly higher than his.

We will be sharing physical custody of our daughter 50/50 as well with no child support payments either way. By the time the divorce is final we'll only have one minor child. As we live at the same address with separate apartments and the kids are free to roam between the two this is a unique situation but she feels the judge won't have an issue. We worked out the health insurance, copays, and prescription costs 50/50 as well. Same with driver's ed costs and we worked out a plan for college.

And @20yr will be happy to know that we will be splitting my car payment. He insisted. 

And this firm comes very highly recommended by several people whose opinion I really trust. So I feel comfortable with them and with her. As I said, she brought up issues before I had a chance to so I know she's on top of things and she knew the answers to all my questions. We are not selling our house and I expected her to be unable to answer all my questions about that but she was very knowledgeable about it and had some good ideas for things to include in the settlement that we hadn't thought about. 

It's really just about making sure the judge doesn't kick back our agreement. There is no fighting or difficulty in this divorce, my STBX has so much guilt surrounding what he did that I could tell him to move out and sign over his half of the house and he would but a judge would just kick that back out. (not that I ever would, mind you) 

To be honest, I feel like for it just being a consultation we actually hammered out agreements on pretty much everything. Now we just need to apply our actual assets and debt to it and finish it up at our first, and I hope only, actual mediation.


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## 20yr (Apr 19, 2019)

notmyjamie said:


> UPDATE!! Had our mediation consultation appointment.
> 
> The good news is that it went well. I really liked the mediator who was assigned to us. She went over lots of stuff with us and she brought up most of the suggestions listed here before I had a chance to bring them up. I brought up a few things and she was very impressed. LOL Based on our conversation she feels that we will get it all done in one 2 hour session. Although I never did sit down with my STBX prior to the meeting we were on the same page about everything except I don't think he had thought about the retirement accounts. When she asked he sort of gave a start until I said "well, we cashed out my first account to buy our first house" and I heard him say under his breath "oh, yeah...I forgot about that." Then she mentioned evening them out and he seemed on board with that so I don't think he'll fight me on it. He even said he'd agree to split the cost of dance going forward. And she wasn't 100% certain but she thinks that his particular company will allow him to continue to cover me on his family plan so that would be good. He even agreed that after the kids go off the plan he'd be fine with continuing to cover me if I paid the difference between a single plan and what it would cost to add me.
> 
> ...


That sounds like a lot of progress! I think it is good that he wants you to be there when he tells the kids. It will also help if they know the reason because that will tell them that reconciliation is not going to happen.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

Do you have any sense of how your youngest will take the news about her dad? It's going to be pretty shocking. From her age I would guess she's still has some of that self-centered attitude and may take it personally. Maybe look on the web for some stories from kids who had a parent come out as gay to see how they handled it and if they wished anything had been done differently.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

wilson said:


> Do you have any sense of how your youngest will take the news about her dad? It's going to be pretty shocking. From her age I would guess she's still has some of that self-centered attitude and may take it personally. Maybe look on the web for some stories from kids who had a parent come out as gay to see how they handled it and if they wished anything had been done differently.



Interestingly enough, I think my youngest will be ok with it except for the fact that it will mean we are definitely not getting back together. She belongs to a group at her school that promotes gay rights. A couple years ago I think she thought she might be bisexual. She has moved away from that in the last year or so though so who knows.

My older two seemed resigned to the fact that we won’t be getting back together but I have no idea how they’ll handle his news. I think they’re going to be more upset about the deceit than my youngest will be. 

I’m hoping they’ll be okay with it. They need their Dad in their life and so I really hope it doesn’t fracture their relationship.

A lot of people keep saying that at least my kids won’t blame me for the divorce but I’m not so sure. They might just think that I should keep the family together anyway. They are young and so they will only see their side of things. I’m very worried about it.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

notmyjamie said:


> A lot of people keep saying that at least my kids won’t blame me for the divorce but I’m not so sure. They might just think that I should keep the family together anyway. They are young and so they will only see their side of things. I’m very worried about it.


I know this doesn't help you now, but if they do blame you, as they mature and grow they will ultimately realize you are not to blame. So trust in that. They won't blame you forever.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

That's a relief that your youngest may be able to take that aspect in stride. Of course there's no way to know for sure, but it sounds like she won't necessarily reject him just for being gay. But even so, I'm sure that all the kids will all feel they were deceived just like you did. That added onto the feelings of divorce will certainly mean things will be chaotic and unpredictable, but hopefully the kids will adjust in time.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

notmyjamie said:


> We will be sharing physical custody of our daughter 50/50 as well with no child support payments either way. By the time the divorce is final we'll only have one minor child. As we live at the same address with separate apartments and the kids are free to roam between the two this is a unique situation but she feels the judge won't have an issue. We worked out the health insurance, copays, and prescription costs 50/50 as well. *Same with driver's ed costs* and we worked out a plan for college.


My friends and I have kids either in driver's ed or who've recently gotten licenses and cars. I've watched divorced and still married couples argue over who pay's the kids auto insurance, who pays how much for their first cars, whether or not the kid could even have a car, and who has to cover repairs.



notmyjamie said:


> My older two seemed resigned to the fact that we won’t be getting back together but I have no idea how they’ll handle his news. I think they’re going to be more upset about the deceit than my youngest will be.


Does your STBX understand that they will likely have questions about when he realized he was attracted to men, why did he get married and stay married, etc.? Is he prepared to answer those questions? The better prepared he is to answer the hard questions they might ask the better the outcome, I think.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

lucy999 said:


> I know this doesn't help you now, but if they do blame you, as they mature and grow they will ultimately realize you are not to blame. So trust in that. They won't blame you forever.


Yeah, a few people have said that to me and I certainly hope it's true. Well, my real hope is that they don't blame me at all and if they do, I'm able to keep a cool head about it. I will confess that if that happens I worry I'll get super angry and say some stuff I really shouldn't say in light of the fact that I'm trying to co-parent effectively which doesn't include trashing my STBX to my kids. I really, really don't believe in doing that but sometimes emotions take over unfortunately.

It's going to be very hard to help them through this while encouraging them to maintain a good relationship with him. There is a small piece of me that feels like "Why the hell is that MY job to do?" but the reality is that I know my STBX. If they get overly emotional he will retreat. If he stays that way and they stay angry at him, the relationship will never recover. So unfair that all this is going to fall on me


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

wilson said:


> That's a relief that your youngest may be able to take that aspect in stride. Of course there's no way to know for sure, but it sounds like she won't necessarily reject him just for being gay. But even so, I'm sure that all the kids will all feel they were deceived just like you did. That added onto the feelings of divorce will certainly mean things will be chaotic and unpredictable, but hopefully the kids will adjust in time.


I can only pray that they can forgive him and move on with life. He's been a wonderful father to them so I'm hoping that will count for something.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

MJJEAN said:


> My friends and I have kids either in driver's ed or who've recently gotten licenses and cars. I've watched divorced and still married couples argue over who pay's the kids auto insurance, who pays how much for their first cars, whether or not the kid could even have a car, and who has to cover repairs.
> 
> All of that has been discussed and agreed upon. Right now the kids are driving my second car. I own it myself but we will be splitting the insurance and major repairs. Kids are expected to pay for gas and routine maintenance, oil changes, etc. It was kind of funny because the mediator asked how we planned to handle it and we both said at the same time "the kids will have to pay for some of it so they learn responsibility!!" The mediator said " did you guys already plan all this out?" and we were like "nope" and she said "I think this is going to be the easiest mediation I've ever done" I know she was wondering why, if we're so on the same page about everything, we are getting divorced.
> 
> ...


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

notmyjamie said:


> It's going to be very hard to help them through this while encouraging them to maintain a good relationship with him. There is a small piece of me that feels like "Why the hell is that MY job to do?" but the reality is that I know my STBX. If they get overly emotional he will retreat. If he stays that way and they stay angry at him, the relationship will never recover. So unfair that all this is going to fall on me



That is absolutely NOT your job to do. Honestly it’s really not even your business. His relationship with the kids is entirely his responsibility, and if chooses to be a coward and hide, then that’s on him. You would just need to be there for them. But if he makes a real effort, just encourage them to give him a chance then back away. Try to stay out of it. 




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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

3Xnocharm said:


> That is absolutely NOT your job to do. Honestly it’s really not even your business. His relationship with the kids is entirely his responsibility, and if chooses to be a coward and hide, then that’s on him. You would just need to be there for them. But if he makes a real effort, just encourage them to give him a chance then back away. Try to stay out of it.


I know you're right, but if I can help and therefore salvage their relationship, which will only help my children, isn't that my responsibility as their Mom? After my parents divorced I almost never saw my father again. That hurts, a lot. I don't want that for my kids. I wouldn't be doing it for him, I'd be doing it for them. I'm angry at him that the need exists, but it still has to be done.


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

notmyjamie said:


> I know you're right, but if I can help and therefore salvage their relationship, which will only help my children, isn't that my responsibility as their Mom? After my parents divorced I almost never saw my father again. That hurts, a lot. I don't want that for my kids. I wouldn't be doing it for him, I'd be doing it for them. I'm angry at him that the need exists, but it still has to be done.


 Your children are 15 and 17, correct? I agree with @3Xnocharm. It is certainly not your responsibility to foster a good relationship between them. Maybe if the kids were super young I could see you steering them, but they are almost adults. They are old enough to have their own relationship with their father separate from your efforts.The onus is on their father to foster that relationship, not you. You really have nothing to do with this.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

Just went on Facebook and found not one, but two of my girls posted really nice tributes to my STBX. That's so nice. I got radio silence on Mother's Day. Not even a mention of it until they overheard a neighbor girl say Happy Mother's Day to me. Last night I told them to be sure to have a card or something for him today. 

The last 2 Christmases my oldest got him a really, nice, well thought out gift. I got nothing. 

Now that I think of it I'm just going to stay out his relationship with them from now on. Grrr!!!


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Aw, what’s that all about?? Are they mad at you about the divorce? It has it always been this way... ?


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

3Xnocharm said:


> Aw, what’s that all about?? Are they mad at you about the divorce? It has it always been this way... ?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think it's just a case of taking your mother for granted. I've always been there and they're very secure in the knowledge that I always will be there for them. On the one hand it's a compliment, on the other is hurtful.

Of course, I should mention that my oldest had to write an essay her first semester at college about overcoming a big challenge and she wrote all about how I helped her overcome her severe anxiety and taught her how to get through anything. She wrote that I inspired her in a way nobody else ever could and that she wouldn't be the independent, happy person she is today if I hadn't helped her tame her anxiety attacks. Truth be told, that felt better than any material gift. 

I'm just feeling sorry for myself tonight. Not very attractive I know. Time to snap out of it!!!! :smile2:


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Oh ok good! Good I mean that things are ok... although their dad should have always encouraged them and helped in regards to Mother's day, I am quite sure you did the same regarding Father's day....


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

Today is a new day. I hope you feel better today.:smile2:

And, I truly hope my post last night didn't upset you. That's the last thing I want.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

notmyjamie said:


> I think it's just a case of taking your mother for granted. I've always been there and they're very secure in the knowledge that I always will be there for them. On the one hand it's a compliment, on the other is hurtful.
> 
> Of course, I should mention that my oldest had to write an essay her first semester at college about overcoming a big challenge and she wrote all about how I helped her overcome her severe anxiety and taught her how to get through anything. She wrote that I inspired her in a way nobody else ever could and that she wouldn't be the independent, happy person she is today if I hadn't helped her tame her anxiety attacks. Truth be told, that felt better than any material gift.
> 
> I'm just feeling sorry for myself tonight. Not very attractive I know. Time to snap out of it!!!! :smile2:


You know what helps young ladies grow up to be thoughtful and kind women? Their mothers pointing out that they aren't treating everyone with respect, as in ignoring their mother on Mother's Day while praising their dad on Father's Day. One sentence, one comment, and leave it at that. And if they try to make excuses, just say "I'm not telling you this to get something from you; I'm telling you because I want you to grow up to be thoughtful people. That's my job." And then leave it again. They'll remember.


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

lucy999 said:


> Today is a new day. I hope you feel better today.:smile2:
> 
> And, I truly hope my post last night didn't upset you. That's the last thing I want.


Not at all. Don't even worry about it. :smile2:


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## notmyjamie (Feb 5, 2019)

turnera said:


> You know what helps young ladies grow up to be thoughtful and kind women? Their mothers pointing out that they aren't treating everyone with respect, as in ignoring their mother on Mother's Day while praising their dad on Father's Day. One sentence, one comment, and leave it at that. And if they try to make excuses, just say "I'm not telling you this to get something from you; I'm telling you because I want you to grow up to be thoughtful people. That's my job." And then leave it again. They'll remember.


I did say something when they blew me off on Mother's Day. I know they get distracted by their show, but at the end of each show, the studio makes all the girls yell out Happy Mother's Day to the audience so they do get reminded. We'll see what happens this Christmas.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

The first year I was with my husband, my birthday came up and he ignored it; he said he didn't believe in 'having to' celebrate an event just cos society says so, that he'd just rather randomly treat me with gifts (translation: makes him look like a great guy, in his eyes). So six months later his birthday came around and I ignored it. He threw a fit. I just shrugged and said "I'm just following your lead." He never (ok, rarely) forgot my birthday again, cos he saw that if he didn't respect me, I wasn't going to respect him.


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