# Negative Patterns That Predict Divorce



## Deejo

Four Negative Patterns That Predict Divorce | AndersonCooper.com

From the article, according to Dr. John Gottman, there are four primary patterns that he refers to as 'The Four Horseman' of marriage apocalypse.

1.Criticism
2. Contempt
3. Defensiveness
4. Stonewalling - or 'the silent treatment'


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## Carol/BC

Yep, sounds right.


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## that_girl

We had all of that before our separation. 



As HELL as those 3 months were...they saved our marriage and our love. Had he not left and I wasn't smacked in the head (figuratively), things would have just boiled up until someone yelled, 'I'M DONE! I WANT A DIVORCE!'

 Hate to even think about it.


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## Going Mental

yes yes yes and yes. Still working on undoing the damage


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## Jeff/BC

Deejo said:


> 4. Stonewalling - or 'the silent treatment'


also known as "turning down the thermostat" and "a 180" -- advice commonly handed out here. I have to admit that for some it apparently works. It's not something I'd ever consider doing in my marriage.

I think the article missed a big one... "5. Entitlement".


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## LovesHerMan

Was it Gottman who said that he can watch how a couple argues, and predict if they will get divorced? If they display contempt for each other, their love is gone. 

I agree with Jeff, entitlement is a big love killer as well, and I would add unresolved resentments.


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## omega

That was interesting, thanks for posting!

My H and I don't have any contempt or silent treatment (in fact, he knows that silent treatment is a bigger deal breaker than physical abuse is, as far as I'm concerned, because my father has given me the silent treatment for months and months, and I just DO NOT take it anymore). Criticism and defensiveness we are both guilty of at times. We only "fight" a few times/year and 90% of the time, it's because I have PMS, and 90% of those times, it's over "nothing".


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## Deejo

Jeff/BC said:


> also known as "turning down the thermostat" and "a 180" -- advice commonly handed out here. I have to admit that for some it apparently works. It's not something I'd ever consider doing in my marriage.


If that is your interpretation of the 'thermostat' or '180' then you are correct, you shouldn't use them. They are intended to reset negative patterns or already broken relationship dynamics. Neither is intended to be used in a punitive fashion, in a relationship that ISN'T already out of whack. And distinctly ... their use is intended to determine if your partner wants to change the broken dynamic. A possible result of which is ... they don't, and in that case you simply move the relationship to it's inevitable end.



> I think the article missed a big one... "5. Entitlement".


I agree. Although maybe this could be a subset of Contempt. "What I want is more important than what you want."


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## Jellybeans

All 4 were happening in mine before the D... the main one being #4...STONEWALLING. Ugh.


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## Jellybeans

I've read that Gottman list before and it is spot on!


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## Trickster

I also have all 4... We are at our breaking point. We just don't want to admit to it yet.


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## AFEH

Jeff/BC said:


> also known as "turning down the thermostat" and "a 180" -- advice commonly handed out here. I have to admit that for some it apparently works. *It's not something I'd ever consider doing in my marriage.*
> 
> I think the article missed a big one... "5. Entitlement".


Reckon you will do if you ever get the need for it.


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## Tall Average Guy

Deejo said:


> If that is your interpretation of the 'thermostat' or '180' then you are correct, you shouldn't use them. They are intended to reset negative patterns or already broken relationship dynamics. Neither is intended to be used in a punitive fashion, in a relationship that ISN'T already out of whack. And distinctly ... their use is intended to determine if your partner wants to change the broken dynamic. A possible result of which is ... they don't, and in that case you simply move the relationship to it's inevitable end.


In addition to the above, a key aspect of turning down the thermostat is clearly communicating why you are doing it. A big part of it, in my mind, is that you are aligning your actions with your words. The silent treatment should not be part of it.


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## MEM2020

Jeff,
When I suggest turning down the thermostat, the primary intent is for the hotter partner not to smother the ccoler partner. IME - if you are always initiating you might be making your partner claustrophobic. 

It is also true that "choosing to spend less time together" counts as lowering the temp. I have said and believe that sitting next to someone on the couch and refusing to talk to them is generally hostile. That said: when I believe my w has really treated me badly, I briefly convey that and then I limit my communication until she elects to address it. It is not my place to tell her I am angry therefore she needs to apologize. Maybe she is angry also. Maybe she wants a day or limited interaction. 

Either way, whenever she says "would you like to talk"? I say "ok".

Talking might be her calmly pointing out I was wrong. Nor it might be a full unconditional apology. 

I do feel strongly that if your partner wrongs you, it sets a bad precedent for you to have to approach them.





UOTE=Jeff/BC;694176]also known as "turning down the thermostat" and "a 180" -- advice commonly handed out here. I have to admit that for some it apparently works. It's not something I'd ever consider doing in my marriage.

I think the article missed a big one... "5. Entitlement".[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

Deejo said:


> I agree. Although maybe this could be a subset of Contempt. "What I want is more important than what you want."


And if you don't think it is this, just study facial expressions when you protest.

Body language tells all.


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## FirstYearDown

We have had criticism and contempt on both sides. My husband is working on body language and I am working on the words I use when I am upset or annoyed with him. I try to criticize the actions and not my husband. He responds well to that.


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## MEM2020

Jeff,
Yes - entitlement is huge. In todays world where gender roles are shifting but still pronounced, entitlement causes an outcome that I have read about here, and experienced the opposite of with my W due mostly to being lucky. 

The outcome I refer to is resentment, which in a lower desire partner often kills your sex life. And the resentment was described by a poster and when others responded they said "gee that happened to us as well". It was "lifestyle" resentment and was described as follows:

*When we had children I had to work full time and resented my husband for it. *

The interesting thing was what wasn't said. And what neither of the wives posting said was that this was a surprise due to:
- He lost his job and was out of work for an extended time
- He took a pay cut
- He chose to work fewer hours

So basically they married men who made "X". And prior to children both the husband and wife elected not to save enough for her to take substantial time off from work. Consequently the wives had to work after they had kids. They resented not being able to stay home (which I empathize with) but their resentment was directed at their husbands for not earning more. 

Before anyone shoots arrows at me. My W would have been the same. We were simply fortunate that what I did allowed us the luxury of her staying home. And so instead of getting resentment I got gratitude. 

I can't resist this last observation as I see these type comments so often. Guy works full time. No kids at home and W is a stay at home wife, not a stay at home mom - a stay at home wife. So he posts their sex life is non-existent and gets asked what he does to help out around the house. Hmmmmm.




Jeff/BC said:


> also known as "turning down the thermostat" and "a 180" -- advice commonly handed out here. I have to admit that for some it apparently works. It's not something I'd ever consider doing in my marriage.
> 
> I think the article missed a big one... "5. Entitlement".


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## FirstYearDown

MEM11363 said:


> Jeff,
> Yes - entitlement is huge. In todays world where gender roles are shifting but still pronounced, entitlement causes an outcome that I have read about here, and experienced the opposite of with my W due mostly to being lucky.
> 
> The outcome I refer to is resentment, which in a lower desire partner often kills your sex life. And the resentment was described by a poster and when others responded they said "gee that happened to us as well". It was "lifestyle" resentment and was described as follows:
> 
> *When we had children I had to work full time and resented my husband for it. *
> 
> The interesting thing was what wasn't said. And what neither of the wives posting said was that this was a surprise due to:
> - He lost his job and was out of work for an extended time
> - He took a pay cut
> - He chose to work fewer hours
> 
> So basically they married men who made "X". And prior to children both the husband and wife elected not to save enough for her to take substantial time off from work. Consequently the wives had to work after they had kids. They resented not being able to stay home (which I empathize with) but their resentment was directed at their husbands for not earning more.
> 
> Before anyone shoots arrows at me. My W would have been the same. We were simply fortunate that what I did allowed us the luxury of her staying home. And so instead of getting resentment I got gratitude.
> 
> *I can't resist this last observation as I see these type comments so often. Guy works full time. No kids at home and W is a stay at home wife, not a stay at home mom - a stay at home wife. So he posts their sex life is non-existent and gets asked what he does to help out around the house. Hmmmmm*.


:iagree::iagree:

The only reason I am a stay at home wife is my school schedule. Otherwise, I would be working like I always did. My husband and I know what we expect from each other, so there are no disagreements about chores and sex. His only chore is grocery shopping. 

I would be ashamed of myself if my hubby came home to a dirty place and no dinner. It is about give and take; too many women are lazy and ungrateful. They talk about "feminism" as a reason not to do housework, yet they expect their hubbies to pay for their lives...utter nonsense.


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## moxy

I can definitely see why these are relationship killers. Good post.


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## muttgirl

I have 3 of the 4 coming from my h of 20+ yrs and cannot say anything that he gets that these actions are killing my love for him. Nothing is profoundly wrong with us but he is withdrawn so far I cant get him to understand our marriage is weakened and this should be a priority. He has nothing to say or do. I do not want anyone else but this hurts so much I dont know how much more I can stand.


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## Cee Paul

Our 3 symptoms right now are:

1. Criticism(we're both constantly criticizing each other now)

2. Career resentment(she wants me to shoot for much higher goals but I am happy and content where I'm at right now)

3. Temperment(we both have quick tempers)


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## DanglingDaisy

All four apply in my partnership. Sigh.

Ten years ago I would have told people no way is our relationship in jeopardy we're soul mates! 

Today...the hard truths can't be ignored. 

Truth is our relationship was one of severe codependency 15yrs ago. The last 5yrs I've worked a lot on myself to deal with being too passive,one to build resentment in the past and blow(It's uncomfortable to bottle things up now). In changing and becoming more independant,my partner became even more emotionally abusive and controlling..now he goes out of his way to avoid me and keeps me at a distance. He refuses to go to counselling either alone or together-since he's always blaming me for everything-god knows he doesn't want to know,or care enough to want to fix things-very painful for me to find out lately. I guess he's in denial-or too stubborn to want to change.

I've stopped reciprocating sexually at all now. Not to punish him(trust me I love sex equally!)but because it hurts too much to give a part of myself intimately only to have him hurt me so badly every other time. Intimacy for him was just a means to get off-basically fantasizing about others while with me.. 


Funny enough in our relationship my partner always wanted me to stay home and raise kids. I can only handle that lifestyle for a few years before I go stir crazy which is why I can't understand women who want to shut themselves off from the stimulation and satisfaction that work has alway brought me I also like challenging myself which being at home and cleaning the same house over and over is not!


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## SimplyAmorous

1.Criticism- the act of passing judgment as to the merits of anything, faultfinding. No Criticism Please!

2. Contempt- the feeling with which a person regards anything considered mean, vile, or worthless; disdain; scorn. The state of being despised; dishonor; disgrace. The Danger of Contempt

3. Defensiveness- Defensiveness: The Poison Pill to Relationships

4. Stonewalling - or 'the silent treatment' Stonewalling in Abuse


I think the only thing we ever had in our marraige (out of these 4)...was ME being a little bit *critical* over ....stupid things..... like wanting my husband to read more, especially his Bible back in the day, or Pray more, taking more of an interest in spiritual things at one point. Looking back....I am kinda thankful he never cared...as I slowly lost my faith anyway... as I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of my spiritual criticisms either. Funny thing was.. he always had more of those "Fruits of the spirit" over me anyway. 

I can't say we've had any of the other 3 in our marraige. We neved did the Silent Treatment with each other, he knows I abhor that. Both of us are very open & don't get defensive....if one of us do in a quick moment, we suddenly come right back down & discuss.... honesty, questioning each other how they really feel....giving merit to what has been said, even if it might have stung. Sometimes we deserve it - more so me.


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## Stonewall

Deejo said:


> Four Negative Patterns That Predict Divorce | AndersonCooper.com
> 
> From the article, according to Dr. John Gottman, there are four primary patterns that he refers to as 'The Four Horseman' of marriage apocalypse.
> 
> 1.Criticism
> 2. Contempt
> 3. Defensiveness
> 4. Stonewalling - or 'the silent treatment'


Hey wait a minute......Stonewall should not be used in a pejorative! 

Wheres the love man!!


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## galian84

Had all 4 in my last relationship...no wonder why it didn't last. It was like walking on eggshells and I harbored SO much resentment.

Fought with my boyfriend several times...neither of us have exhibited any of the 4 symptoms. Thank God, even if there were times where I braced myself for incoming defensiveness / criticism...but it never came.


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## kamakiriad

Interesting stuff. It's almost like anything can end up causing a relationship to fail. I just heard about some friends of mine who got in a huge argument about which way the silverware should be put in the dishwasher! ("business end" down, by the way, is the correct answer ).

One of the things that really hurt our marriage in the early days was expectations. What we expected from ourselves and each other was way out of kilter. Once we sort of figured that out, things became much more workable.

I'm not sure I understand exactly what "contempt" means...can anyone break that down a little bit?


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## Relationship Coach

lovesherman said:


> Was it Gottman who said that he can watch how a couple argues, and predict if they will get divorced? If they display contempt for each other, their love is gone.
> 
> I agree with Jeff, entitlement is a big love killer as well, and I would add unresolved resentments.


I believe so, yes. Defensiveness is huge from what I see. Once people overstate their own ego, it's never a good spiral.


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## jane_ro

Check on all 4! Amazingly we're still together..been together for 14 years and going strong..does that mean we're on our way to doom?


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## WantToMakeThingsWork

Deejo said:


> Four Negative Patterns That Predict Divorce | AndersonCooper.com
> 
> From the article, according to Dr. John Gottman, there are four primary patterns that he refers to as 'The Four Horseman' of marriage apocalypse.
> 
> 1.Criticism
> 2. Contempt
> 3. Defensiveness
> 4. Stonewalling - or 'the silent treatment'


How do you stop these things before it's too late?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo

WantToMakeThingsWork said:


> How do you stop these things before it's too late?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good question. Not so easy to answer.

For starters? Learn to recognize, take ownership of, and address YOUR contribution that gives rise to those things.


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## heartsbeating

^ booyah!


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## GhostRydr

Deejo said:


> Four Negative Patterns That Predict Divorce | AndersonCooper.com
> 
> From the article, according to Dr. John Gottman, there are four primary patterns that he refers to as 'The Four Horseman' of marriage apocalypse.
> 
> 1.Criticism
> 2. Contempt
> 3. Defensiveness
> 4. Stonewalling - or 'the silent treatment'


Had the 3rd one in my first marriage

Have all 4 off and on in the current soon to be in the past marriage.


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## Anubis

Add 5) Emotional Terrorism and 6) Entitlement Complex and I would have thought he knew my ex-


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## jenniferswe

I've heard about this. I had these with my first husband especially stonewalling. He did not like to talk.


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## Deejo

heartsbeating said:


> ^ booyah!


My darling son would say: "Cyborg from Teen Titans says that!"

I don't know how deep your geek pool is HB ... and I say that as a guy who still dangles his toes in the deep end from time to time.


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## Betabuster

I couldn't agree more. But a major oft forgotten factor is the loss of attraction


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## Caribbean Man

Quite an interesting post.

The real challenge is in not letting things escalate to that point where those
" four horsemen " come riding in like a tidal wave.


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## Deejo

Betabuster said:


> I couldn't agree more. But a major oft forgotten factor is the loss of attraction


All of those things develop and become entrenched as a direct result of the loss of attraction, and respect.

If your partner brings a smile to your face with their personal conduct, or how they interact with you ... then it is far less likely that those corrosive behaviors start to seep into your relationship.


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## Deejo

Caribbean Man said:


> Quite an interesting post.
> 
> The real challenge is in not letting things escalate to that point where those
> " four horsemen " come riding in like a tidal wave.


In my case, this was the hard part. It's like carbon monoxide poisoning rather than someone pointing a gun at you.

It's slow, builds over a very long time. But in the end, is no less deadly than the bullet.


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## Betabuster

And further i think insecurity and controlling behaviour, that and a lack of respect for your spouse's boundaries,open communication all contribute to the death of a marriage.

Criticism & contempt grow naturally from lack of respect

defensiveness & stonewalling occur as a result controlling behaviour and lack of open communication channels between the couple


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## heartsbeating

Deejo said:


> My darling son would say: "Cyborg from Teen Titans says that!"
> 
> I don't know how deep your geek pool is HB ... and I say that as a guy who still dangles his toes in the deep end from time to time.


Your son rocks.


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## COguy

Have all of 4 and I'm now part of the 90% (or soon to be).

I can see clearly that my part in all this is allowing continued overstepping of my what was comfortable to me, and refusing to be consistent about how I handled that. I don't think it would have saved my marriage, but it would have kept me from getting married in the first place.

Here is a list of Codependency symptoms on weak boundaries:



> Weak Boundaries
> 
> Codependents frequently:
> 1. Say they won't tolerate certain behaviors from other people.
> 2. Gradually increase their tolerance until they can tolerate and do things they said they would never do.
> 3. Let others hurt them.
> 4. Keep letting others hurt them.
> 5. Wonder why they hurt so badly.
> 6. Complain, blame, and try to control while they continue to stand there.
> 7. Finally get angry.
> 8. Become totally intolerant.


I read that and shook my head...my marriage to the T.


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## MidlifeWife

My marriage has all four of these. I feel like my husband has a Dr. Jeckyl / Mr. Hyde thing going on. When he is good, he is awesome-- hard working, active with our kids, does more than his fair share of home chores. Then, when he is hungry or just something "sets him off" he is so unbelievably difficult-- mean spirited, angry, will no interact with me in any sort of respectful or productive way. I walk on eggshells, I get defensive and contemptful right back at him. It fills every part of my body with anxiety and the flight or fight feeling. We had a bad fight yesterday over nothing at all, but I could do no right and he very publically reprimanded me and I overreacted from feeling disrespected, and stormed off. We have three small kids who see this, see us acting like angry loons (no physical violence but I feel like you could cut the rage between us with a knife). We eventually talked it through, and apologized but what the end was, was a "truce" that let us go back to business of parenting and household chores, interacting with relatives-- but no "making up" or anything along those lines. I couldn't sleep next to him I was just so tense feeling like I needed to leave the house and never return except for my three small children-- I can't leave them. Our lives are so complicated-- I feel like with our work, our commutes, our child care arrangements, our house, it is like this delicate house of cards and if I pull my card out everything will be shattered. I worry about raising our kids with all this tension between us, we have great relationships with them directly. I want to provide a childhood for them that I couldn't afford as a single mother (we are not rich, and I am no gold digger-- we save and pool our resources for a good school district and things like swim and piano lessons for them...). 
I do admire him and there are moments where we even feel like friends although those are not frequent. The sex life... well, it is barely there. When it occurs it is like, dutiful I suppose is the only way to describe it. I still find him attractive just feel like I can't really "let go" with him. Because of all the times we fight I think I just don't feel that intimacy.


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## Lostwouthim

Betabuster said:


> And further i think insecurity and controlling behaviour, that and a lack of respect for your spouse's boundaries,open communication all contribute to the death of a marriage.
> 
> Criticism & contempt grow naturally from lack of respect
> 
> defensiveness & stonewalling occur as a result controlling behaviour and lack of open communication channels between the couple



Wow, that's what's happened in the relationship that I was in. Is all this an indicator that the marriage can't even be reconciled? Would therapy help?


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## Deejo

Lostwouthim said:


> Wow, that's what's happened in the relationship that I was in. Is all this an indicator that the marriage can't even be reconciled? Would therapy help?


Not if the partner with low self-esteem and/or controlling behavior is willing to examine their own issues with why they feel that way ... that may have nothing to do with their partners behavior. But it kills the relationship nonetheless.


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## lonesomegra

This Dr. John Gottman was on TV3 here early this morning with his wife. My daughter was channel hopping looking for cartoons and I didn't see all that he said, although he outlined the 4 horsemen theory. I might do a search around and see if I can watch it on playback. He sounded a bit of a fast talker to me but sometimes there is method behind the madness.


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## TheHappyGuy

Interesting thread. Do all four patterns have to be present at the same time for the marriage to fail or is one enough?

Also, what exactly is a pattern? I mean, if I'm critical of my W on a certain occasion for good reason and that happens say once a month, is that a pattern? Is it justified criticism?


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## DocHoliday

Originally Posted by Caribbean Man 
Quite an interesting post.

The real challenge is in not letting things escalate to that point where those
" four horsemen " come riding in like a tidal wave. 

" In my case, this was the hard part. It's like carbon monoxide poisoning rather than someone pointing a gun at you.

It's slow, builds over a very long time. But in the end, is no less deadly than the bullet. "

*Oh, I know. But HOW do you take the first step? I feel it is almost like fighting an uphill battle.*


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## Jellybeans

All 4 were happening at the end of my marriage.

The stonewalling thing though was the first. I think that from t hat, everything else came. I certainly lost a lot of respect for my ex when he did that.

I am afraid of being in another relationship in the future with this dynamic. How does one make sure it doesn't happen? The breakdown of communication/hurt feelings/resentment?


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## TroubledSexLife

Some of these sound self explanatory but so many people miss it.


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## Dreald

Jeff/BC said:


> I think the article missed a big one... "5. Entitlement".


Amen. Entitlement centers around the self and not the marriage. Unfortunately, many men and women have that entitlement aspect ingrained into themselves at a very early age. 

And also IMO, there is a whole subculture of women who believe that men should place them on a pedestal and thereby creates that sense of entitlement. I have two nieces, ages 8 and 10 that will be classic cases of entitlement. It's not their fault but directly related to how my brother and SIL are raising them.


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## Drover

A wedding is a strong predictor of impending divorce about 50% of the time.


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## Drover

You realize that a lot of his erratic behavior is probably due to the fact that he doesn't know how to handle the fact that he's not getting the sex he needs? This is the vicious cycle that kills so many marriages. 

You reject him a couple of times. He waits for lightning to strike during those two or three days a month your hormones tell you to want sex. He gets pissy, irritated, resentful, sullen, passive aggressive. You don't want sex with him because of the way he behaves. He behaves even worse as his resentment builds...



MidlifeWife said:


> My marriage has all four of these. I feel like my husband has a Dr. Jeckyl / Mr. Hyde thing going on. When he is good, he is awesome-- hard working, active with our kids, does more than his fair share of home chores. Then, when he is hungry or just something "sets him off" he is so unbelievably difficult-- mean spirited, angry, will no interact with me in any sort of respectful or productive way. I walk on eggshells, I get defensive and contemptful right back at him. It fills every part of my body with anxiety and the flight or fight feeling. We had a bad fight yesterday over nothing at all, but I could do no right and he very publically reprimanded me and I overreacted from feeling disrespected, and stormed off. We have three small kids who see this, see us acting like angry loons (no physical violence but I feel like you could cut the rage between us with a knife). We eventually talked it through, and apologized but what the end was, was a "truce" that let us go back to business of parenting and household chores, interacting with relatives-- but no "making up" or anything along those lines. I couldn't sleep next to him I was just so tense feeling like I needed to leave the house and never return except for my three small children-- I can't leave them. Our lives are so complicated-- I feel like with our work, our commutes, our child care arrangements, our house, it is like this delicate house of cards and if I pull my card out everything will be shattered. I worry about raising our kids with all this tension between us, we have great relationships with them directly. I want to provide a childhood for them that I couldn't afford as a single mother (we are not rich, and I am no gold digger-- we save and pool our resources for a good school district and things like swim and piano lessons for them...).
> I do admire him and there are moments where we even feel like friends although those are not frequent. The sex life... well, it is barely there. When it occurs it is like, dutiful I suppose is the only way to describe it. I still find him attractive just feel like I can't really "let go" with him. Because of all the times we fight I think I just don't feel that intimacy.


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## Florence82

Am I headed for divorce?

My husband and I had a VERY candid talk last night (using the "I to I" method - a great way to get to the heart of each person's problem without judgement.)

We have experienced all forms of these warning signs in one way or another:

1. Criticism:
We both criticize each other silently. I think he is weak and overly judgemental and he thinks I am prone to being victimized and annoying.

2. Contempt:
My husband is angry towards me so he has very negative thoughts about me (because I have some issues when it comes to long term relationships and sex, including pain and anxiety) and I can feel his anger, even though he tries to hide it. I feel angry at him for stifling me with his contempt, he can't "just let me be me", as he puts it, (and he feels guilty about this). I hate that he cries and drags negative energy into our house, as I am already vulnerable, anxious and depressed myself.

3. Defensiveness:
My husband's anger leads me to very quickly assume that many things he says to me are an attack, and I get into defense mode very quickly. He will often simply pretend that he isn't angry.

4. Stonewalling - or 'the silent treatment':
We both do this, not as an obvious attack on the other person, but as a self-perseverance mechanism. I get lost in my thoughts and fantasies and do nothing to help our sex life, while he gets cold and passive-agressive towards me.

All this said, we DO still love each other and we want things to work out, although he seems a bit less hopeful than I am. We laugh, we hug, we cuddle a bit in bed, kiss on the mouth at least once a day. We are best friends in so many aspects and we do things for each other like lovingly make soup when one of us has a cold. 

Bottom line: Last night he told me that he has had many thoughts about splitting up in the past few months and I admitted that the same thought has passed my mind in the past few weeks.

Again: Are we headed for divorce?

I would deeply appreciate some advice, comments or thoughts


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## seeking sanity

Your feelings are complicated and difficult for him to understand. In fact that whole conversation felt awful to me just reading it. What he wants is to get laid on a regular basis, with enthusiasm. And for sex to not have to be a huge production. I don't know what you want, it's too hard to understand for me. if you could state it in actionable terms, he'd be more likely to comply. 

He can't solve your anxiety. That's for you to deal with. All he knows is that you are a stew of emotions and that begging/settling for sh*tty, sporadic sex is frustrating, and feels pointless.

As Drover put it so well, you're in the death cycle. And given your behaviour, I'd assume the next relationship will play out exactly like this one has if you don't change. 

And what does "I have some issues when it comes to long term relationships and sex" mean? You only sex in short term relationships? That's the biggest problem he has, and you're minimizing it make you look better.


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## Florence82

seeking sanity said:


> Your feelings are complicated and difficult for him to understand. In fact that whole conversation felt awful to me just reading it. What he wants is to get laid on a regular basis, with enthusiasm. And for sex to not have to be a huge production. I don't know what you want, it's too hard to understand for me. if you could state it in actionable terms, he'd be more likely to comply.
> 
> He can't solve your anxiety. That's for you to deal with. All he knows is that you are a stew of emotions and that begging/settling for sh*tty, sporadic sex is frustrating, and feels pointless.
> 
> As Drover put it so well, you're in the death cycle. And given your behaviour, I'd assume the next relationship will play out exactly like this one has if you don't change.
> 
> And what does "I have some issues when it comes to long term relationships and sex" mean? You only sex in short term relationships? That's the biggest problem he has, and you're minimizing it make you look better.


Seeking Sanity:
I have had issues with sex and intimacy for over 15 years. It is a deep-rooted problem that stems from painful events in the past, to give you some more info about my private life.
I do not expect him to deal with my anxiety, I don't know where I said that.
When we do have sex, I try not to do it "sh*tty", as you say, since I love him and want sex just as much as the next person.
I know the lack of sex is the biggest problem he has, he has said so, I know this, and understand it.
Now, please go be antagonistic towards another stranger; someone who is revealing painful emotions in search for help.
Florence.


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## seeking sanity

Fair enough. I'd encourage you read the opinions of others on this topic, as it's a common dynamic. 

My belief is that the 4 "horseman" are byproducts of unmet needs, usually not the source of the problem.


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## diwali123

I would suggest IC for you to help heal from your trauma.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## missymrs80

Florence82 said:


> Am I headed for divorce?
> 
> My husband and I had a VERY candid talk last night (using the "I to I" method - a great way to get to the heart of each person's problem without judgement.)
> 
> We have experienced all forms of these warning signs in one way or another:
> 
> 1. Criticism:
> We both criticize each other silently. I think he is weak and overly judgemental and he thinks I am prone to being victimized and annoying.
> 
> 2. Contempt:
> My husband is angry towards me so he has very negative thoughts about me (because I have some issues when it comes to long term relationships and sex, including pain and anxiety) and I can feel his anger, even though he tries to hide it. I feel angry at him for stifling me with his contempt, he can't "just let me be me", as he puts it, (and he feels guilty about this). I hate that he cries and drags negative energy into our house, as I am already vulnerable, anxious and depressed myself.
> 
> 3. Defensiveness:
> My husband's anger leads me to very quickly assume that many things he says to me are an attack, and I get into defense mode very quickly. He will often simply pretend that he isn't angry.
> 
> 4. Stonewalling - or 'the silent treatment':
> We both do this, not as an obvious attack on the other person, but as a self-perseverance mechanism. I get lost in my thoughts and fantasies and do nothing to help our sex life, while he gets cold and passive-agressive towards me.
> 
> All this said, we DO still love each other and we want things to work out, although he seems a bit less hopeful than I am. We laugh, we hug, we cuddle a bit in bed, kiss on the mouth at least once a day. We are best friends in so many aspects and we do things for each other like lovingly make soup when one of us has a cold.
> 
> Bottom line: Last night he told me that he has had many thoughts about splitting up in the past few months and I admitted that the same thought has passed my mind in the past few weeks.
> 
> Again: Are we headed for divorce?
> 
> I would deeply appreciate some advice, comments or thoughts


Gottman rocks! Love love love his work. His work is based on research more than theory. I would urge you to read his book. Both you and your husband. Marriage is work....now you are at the place where you need to do the work. If my DH and i didnt do the work, i think we could easily have all 4 horsemen in our marriage.


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