# What I Finally Realized I Need and Probably Won't Get



## TeddieG

Lately I've been struggling with a latent sense of being generally irritated, easily annoyed, even a deep-seated but real low-grade anger, and I couldn't put my finger on the cause. One day last week I was so exhausted I barely made it to work, but when I got there, I closed my door and put on some Ludivoci Einaudi in itunes and found myself almost instantly soothed. I keep listening to his Divenire and Primavera and feeling the sadness. And listening again today it finally clicked. The dam finally burst. 

From somewhere deep inside me that I had been uncharacteristically unable to tap into, I realized what I want, and need. All throughout my h's bull shyte journey, from his running from health problems and mortality, into the arms of a welfare *****, I was kind to him. All through his descent into madness and bi polar depression and his frightening surgery, I had compassion for him. When I was in England with my mother, a conference for me and a last trip home for her to say goodbye to her family in her last stages of cancer, he called, and said he and OW had broken up, he was home, he was sorry, and haltingly said "for all the events of the past seven years," I thought we'd made it. He'd said he was sorry in 2008-9, when he came home, but it was just sort of a generic "sorry," like, a detached, non-owing his own chit kind of sorry. The "I'm sorry" this summer was weak and halting and brief, but I thought it was a start. 

What I want, and more importantly need, is to feel that at some point before he dies, he totally GETS what he did to me, the degree to which he hurt me, the amount of damage he did to me. What I need is for him to say "I'm sorry" and REALLY mean it, and really own what he did. I didn't deserve any of what he did to me.

And what I realize I am really going to have to do is accept that he may never get it, and I may never hear or know that he got it. 

All this time I thought I had forgiven him and wished him well, wished him happiness, even, since he seems to have had so little of it in this life. It surprised me to find that I need ANYthing from him, but the reality is, I know I need to expect and accept that I will never ever know if he has any sorrow or guilt or remorse or regret. And that's okay, except that it is causing me to question whether I can ever really forgive him. While I really want to, and thought I had, I find myself in a weird vortex of realizing that while I deeply believe I can make the decision to forgive him, I don't know how long it will take for me to really feel that I have. 

But I suppose this kind of house-cleaning of the soul, the wiping out of the cob-webs of past haunts and hurts, is what is required to find my way to embracing the forgiveness I want to extend to him. It's odd to be concerned about it when he is clearly not the kind of person who feels he needs to be forgiven. But it's not about him, it's about me and how much of this baggage I want to put down before I embark on the next leg of the journey. Perhaps the divorce is too fresh still (December, after all) and I'm adapting to a new more limited financial reality (which came as a shock; I didn't expect this much change with more looming on the horizon). If he had wandered into his future and mine hadn't changed that much, maybe I wouldn't be feeling this. 

But I hope that what I often find and have found true through life still holds: if I can find the emotion and name it and speak it, it loses its power over me. 

So what I need today is for him to really feel, really get, really comprehend, and really live with consequences for what he did to me. I'm not banking on it. But I need it.


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## farsidejunky

You don't need it, Teddie. You may strongly desire it, but this is an instance where you're going to have to tell yourself "no".

My ex wife left me. I spent a year being incredibly angry. I took it out on other women through cheap sex and just generally mistreating them.

Then one day I realized it just didn't matter anymore. We were both flawed, but she made the choice to not want to repair our relationship. It had to be okay; it was what was happening.

You are painting yourself into a corner by convincing yourself you actually need this when you don't. You just need time. Don't lie to yourself and say that you need something you don't.


Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Cooper

I hear you TeddieG and can relate to your feelings. Sadly the reality is just like that old saying about "not knowing someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes". Your ex husband may see the pain he has caused you, he may realize how he changed and damaged your life, but he won't feel the same pain you feel, he won't be able to fathom how deeply you are hurt by his actions and betrayal. One because it didn't happen to him, and secondly because if he were capable of having that depth of emotion he would have never caused you that type of pain in the first place.

Maybe I'm just being cynical, but my reality is believing the ex will never truly understand the damage she caused to me and the kids. So where the ex is concerned I think you need to lower your expectations, you can easily move your life forward and have lots of years of happiness, but if you keep waiting for that come to Jesus moment for your ex you're probably going to have a long disappointing wait.

I believe it's best to just move on and expect nothing from the ex. and I think you have come to find that power in yourself TeddieG.


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## 2ntnuf

I hope you are in counseling. If not, please get there soon. It will help.

It's tough coping with all of that. You have good reasons to be angry and hurt. The life you had and believed in was destroyed. All the work you did seems like it was for nothing. You are starting all over again. 

It's no wonder you are angry and want vengeance. Didn't they get their vengeance when they cheated? Ask a cheater, they'll tell you what you did to cause it. So, the cheating must be vengeance, right? Now, you want your's . I don't blame you for feeling that way. I only know that the place you are in sucks. It hurts and stops you from doing things you might otherwise have done. 

Here's a couple of articles I found. Maybe they will help? 

The 5 Stages of Loss and Grief | Psych Central

On Grief, Loss and Coping | Psych Central

Yeah, I know it's about a loved one dying. It's much the same as divorce. Make sure you get to a good counselor.


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## TeddieG

farsidejunky said:


> You don't need it, Teddie. You may strongly desire it, but this is an instance where you're going to have to tell yourself "no".
> 
> My ex wife left me. I spent a year being incredibly angry. I took it out on other women through cheap sex and just generally mistreating them.
> 
> Then one day I realized it just didn't matter anymore. We were both flawed, but she made the choice to not want to repair our relationship. It had to be okay; it was what was happening.
> 
> You are painting yourself into a corner by convincing yourself you actually need this when you don't. You just need time. Don't lie to yourself and say that you need something you don't.
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


Knew I could count on you, junky. Thanks. You're right. Not sure why I think I need it.


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## TeddieG

Cooper said:


> I hear you TeddieG and can relate to your feelings. Sadly the reality is just like that old saying about "not knowing someone until you've walked a mile in their shoes". Your ex husband may see the pain he has caused you, he may realize how he changed and damaged your life, but he won't feel the same pain you feel, he won't be able to fathom how deeply you are hurt by his actions and betrayal. One because it didn't happen to him, and secondly because if he were capable of having that depth of emotion he would have never caused you that type of pain in the first place.
> 
> Maybe I'm just being cynical, but my reality is believing the ex will never truly understand the damage she caused to me and the kids. So where the ex is concerned I think you need to lower your expectations, you can easily move your life forward and have lots of years of happiness, but if you keep waiting for that come to Jesus moment for your ex you're probably going to have a long disappointing wait.
> 
> I believe it's best to just move on and expect nothing from the ex. and I think you have come to find that power in yourself TeddieG.


Thanks, Cooper. I suspect part of the reason I thought he would "get it" is because his first wife cheated on him more than once, and it really affected him. Hell, he may be cheating on every woman who came after her because he's still pissed at her. He and his mother have an interesting and weird push-pull relationship. I know that when people cheat, they are NOT thinking of their spouses, but find their spouses to be useful scapegoats when caught or rationalizing their behavior. But you would think someone who experienced betrayal themselves would think twice or three times before inflicting that kind of damage. 

Who knows. But you're right at a very deep level. I suspect I wanted him to show that he has some ability to experience deep emotions and show empathy, perhaps because it might mean he actually cared for me once in the first place.


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## TeddieG

2ntnuf said:


> I hope you are in counseling. If not, please get there soon. It will help.
> 
> 
> Here's a couple of articles I found. Maybe they will help?
> 
> The 5 Stages of Loss and Grief | Psych Central
> 
> On Grief, Loss and Coping | Psych Central
> 
> Yeah, I know it's about a loved one dying. It's much the same as divorce. Make sure you get to a good counselor.


It is very much the same. Thanks.


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## TeddieG

touba said:


> OMG woman stop complaining.
> 
> People are starving in Indonesia and here you are whining about your feelings.
> 
> Get a hobby.


Welcome to TAM. I hope you find help here and elsewhere to get your empathy chip repaired.


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## farsidejunky

TeddieG said:


> Welcome to TAM. I hope you find help here and elsewhere to get your empathy chip repaired.


:rofl:

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Left arm optimistic

TeddieG said:


> Thanks, Cooper. I suspect part of the reason I thought he would "get it" is because his first wife cheated on him more than once, and it really affected him. Hell, he may be cheating on every woman who came after her because he's still pissed at her. He and his mother have an interesting and weird push-pull relationship.
> 
> Who knows. But you're right at a very deep level. I suspect I wanted him to show that he has some ability to experience deep emotions and show empathy, perhaps because it might mean he actually cared for me once in the first place.


Even if he can't show empathy and fully understand what he put you through, I don't think it means he never cared for you in the first place. Reading some of the stories on here, and being able to relate to many of the stories and themes that are discussed just makes the emotional and existential struggles that we (men and women) all have, all the more clear. 

And I think people are capable of doing a great deal of damage to each other, and then build a wall up and deny it because it can be hard to live with yourself when you know how much you've hurt someone you love or used to love deeply.


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## TeddieG

@Left arm optimistic, thank you.


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## Evinrude58

Teddie. He may neither deserve nor want your forgiveness. 
I would not fret about it. You will get to the point where you DGAF about him one way or another. Then you can forgive him, or not. Unless he asks for it, I wouldn't waste time thinking about it. 

The guy probably did love you, but not in the same way as you did him. That's his problem. He may not be capable of the love you are, and that's a shame for him.

Just think more on the fact that you are now free to find someone that can love you. We both need to concentrate less on the past and more on the future. Dwelling on the past never makes one feel better, because one can't change the past
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TeddieG

Evinrude58 said:


> Teddie. He may neither deserve nor want your forgiveness.
> I would not fret about it. You will get to the point where you DGAF about him one way or another. Then you can forgive him, or not. Unless he asks for it, I wouldn't waste time thinking about it.
> 
> The guy probably did love you, but not in the same way as you did him. That's his problem. He may not be capable of the love you are, and that's a shame for him.
> 
> Just think more on the fact that you are now free to find someone that can love you. We both need to concentrate less on the past and more on the future. Dwelling on the past never makes one feel better, because one can't change the past
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, @Evinrude58, that's very wise. I think I thought if I could forgive him I could move forward. But maybe I have to keep moving forward so that I can forgive him. Either way, I'm moving forward for me. Thanks.


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## VeryHurt

touba said:


> OMG woman stop complaining.
> 
> People are starving in Indonesia and here you are whining about your feelings.
> 
> Get a hobby.


How dare you post something like that?

What the fvck is wrong with you?

Stay away from Teddy and her thread!


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## TeddieG

VeryHurt said:


> How dare you post something like that?
> 
> What the fvck is wrong with you?
> 
> Stay away from Teddy and her thread!


That's sweet of you, VH. I'm so good at the 180 that I just fired off a comment and kept moving. LOL! 

Poor touba's looking for his empathy chip. He's trying.


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## 2ntnuf

I was wondering if this quiz might help you? There are a few that I've been looking through. When I read your last post, I thought there is still hope in you. You are trying to look at it from all angles. That's encouraging. 

I believe this quiz is on complicated grief. Check it out if you want. 

Grief Quiz - Psych Central

I don't think you need this one, but what the heck. Maybe you can use it to judge your emotional state?

Suicide Screening Quiz - Psych Central

This is the link for those quizzes and more. You wouldn't believe the quizzes they have. If nothing else, it's interesting. 

Psychological Tests and Quizzes


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## JohnA

Hi Teddy, 

You have been far to invested in a life with him to ever achieve your goal. He cannot give it to you. I often post the past is our future unless we change it. Accept he is who he is - period. He may clean up his act to some degree but the act will not change. So use this reoationship as a filter on what to avoid in the future. 

Practice the attitude of you owe him nothing until it becomes reality. Every time you give him emotional support it impedes a new relationship form growing. In a nut shell: if I came upon an accident that involved my ex, of cource I would call 911, but I would not stop. Understand my default would be to call and stop to see if I could help, but not if it were her. 

Bottom line he is not your friend, he is toxic to you, he needs to get life without you.


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## TeddieG

JohnA said:


> Hi Teddy,
> 
> You have been far to invested in a life with him to ever achieve your goal. He cannot give it to you. I often post the past is our future unless we change it. Accept he is who he is - period. He may clean up his act to some degree but the act will not change. So use this reoationship as a filter on what to avoid in the future.
> 
> Practice the attitude of you owe him nothing until it becomes reality. Every time you give him emotional support it impedes a new relationship form growing. In a nut shell: if I came upon an accident that involved my ex, of cource I would call 911, but I would not stop. Understand my default would be to call and stop to see if I could help, but not if it were her.
> 
> Bottom line he is not your friend, he is toxic to you, he needs to get life without you.


John, thank you! I wasn't going to tell him I forgive him. I was just going to tell me, as a way of moving forward and healing. I have virtually no contact with him unless there's a little thread that still needs snipping from the divorce, like taxes or insurance. But I hear you. You're describing the IDGAF position with just enough compassion for the ex as a human being that you might extend to any other stranger. I'm almost there and hope to be soon. Thanks for responding, friend.


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## TeddieG

2ntnuf said:


> I was wondering if this quiz might help you? There are a few that I've been looking through. When I read your last post, I thought there is still hope in you. You are trying to look at it from all angles. That's encouraging.
> 
> I believe this quiz is on complicated grief. Check it out if you want.
> 
> Grief Quiz - Psych Central
> 
> I don't think you need this one, but what the heck. Maybe you can use it to judge your emotional state?
> 
> Suicide Screening Quiz - Psych Central
> 
> This is the link for those quizzes and more. You wouldn't believe the quizzes they have. If nothing else, it's interesting.
> 
> Psychological Tests and Quizzes


Thank you! Yes, I am curious what trajectory my grief will take. My mother died in September, my husband filed for divorce a week later, and I walked away from a PhD 3 weeks ago by quitting the program with everything done but the dissertation because no one would listen that the project my advisor assigned me was flawed and the research wasn't tenable. But I was relieved to give THAT up. I've lost a lot but I'm still standing up and on my feet. &#55357;&#56841; And SERIOUSLY ready to put ALL the crap behind me and move on!


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## 2ntnuf

Oddly enough, I think I would have tried to prove him wrong and rub his nose in it by finding either that the question was wrong and why or that it was just the answer that he came up with and why that was so incredibly obvious. 

hmm...

Maybe I'm just in a mood tonight? :laugh:


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## Holland

OP while our situations are vastly different the need hear a genuine sorry was also something I felt I needed. I knew I was never going to get it so I took the advice from a book I was reading at the time and wrote an apology letter to myself as if it was from him.
I wrote the words and heartfelt emotion that I desperately needed.

It worked for me, I felt relief and not long after was able to forgive him fully and move on. I never told him any of this because it was none of his business, it was for me and it worked. I also forgave myself and took responsibility for my part in how our marriage was, we all have some blame.

I then was able to move on with life and have not looked back. We are very amicable and co parent our kids exceptionally well.


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## Satya

Teddie, I wanted what you want, too, and never got it. Now I stopped caring a long time ago. 

Thing is, people capable of hurting you in terrible and serious ways are usually incapable of empathy.


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## TeddieG

Thanks, Satya and Holland. Great ideas, and truth, both of you.


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## 3Xnocharm

TeddieG said:


> Yes, @Evinrude58, that's very wise. I think I thought if I could forgive him I could move forward. But maybe I have to keep moving forward so that I can forgive him. Either way, I'm moving forward for me. Thanks.


You know what, the whole FORGIVENESS thing is overrated. You don't HAVE to forgive him! That doesn't sentence you to a life of bitterness and sadness. It also doesn't make what he did okay. You just move forward with your own life and take some lessons along with you.


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## TeddieG

3Xnocharm said:


> You know what, the whole FORGIVENESS thing is overrated. You don't HAVE to forgive him! That doesn't sentence you to a life of bitterness and sadness. It also doesn't make what he did okay. You just move forward with your own life and take some lessons along with you.


Well said, 3x. Thank you.


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## BlueWoman

@teddyG, I so know the feel of just wanting them to understand the devastation they caused. To feel even 1/10 of the pain they caused. It took me a very long time to get past that desire. But I did. It's not that I don't think he's an ass, but I finally processed enough of my grief to be able to move and have a happy life without him. And now if I think about how he feels I realize I just don't care. He just doesn't matter. Will he ever know what he did to me? I don't know. But as I am starting to see new beginnings I no longer feel devastated by his choices so it no longer matters if he gets how I feel. 

But again, it took me a long time to get here and I still have my moments. (And I still hope the POSOW gave him STD. Warts would be okay.) 

Also, I'm with you @3Xnocharm. I don't know what it means to forgive. It's not alright what he did to me. It will never be alright. He will never be someone that I believe is trust worthy. But I don't spend much time thinking about it. What does it mean to forgive him? Thinking about him takes less and less of my day, and eventually I hope I have days that a thought of him doesn't come up. That's as good as it's going to get.


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## EnjoliWoman

You may not get it. I know I won't because my ex has a personality disorder. He will never 'get' what he did to me. But what I finally learned is that I don't need to forgive; I just can't WALLOW in it. He did/said things that were despicable. He has done/said awful things to our daughter to the point she has written him off.

What I did instead? I pitied him. He will never know the kind of connection I will. He will never understand the human spirit the way I do. I don't want to forgive him - he doesn't deserve it and he really doesn't want it because he doesn't 'get' it. Forgiveness for the sake of the one forgiving? Personally I don't buy the whole concept. Maybe it's semantics - what I CAN do is to let it go. The hurt and the anger and his impact over anything I feel is like a wisp of smoke dissolving into the air. Poof. His power over me is gone.

I admit there is the occasional residual feeling because we still have a minor daughter together and I believe the physical and verbal abuse was bad because she said there were things she won't tell me until she's 18. She doesn't want to start WWIII over whatever it was. So the anger and hatred does still occasionally waft up out of an unexpected place where it concerns our daughter but mostly it's not even there.

I don't want to give him control over my emotions. I don't give him permission to do that anymore. Including a need to forgive.


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## TeddieG

Nice post, Enjoli Woman. Thanks. For the most part, I manage to get through every day. Occasionally I wake up in the morning and realize I am angry about how my life and future have been upturned and that I'll struggle more than I thought I would, but I deal with my anger before I go to work and then I try to practice kindness and gratitude throughout the day. As it stands, things could have been worse and in the grand scheme of things I am fortunate, more fortunate than many, and after I posted this thread here, I got back on track to my forward movement. But the memories of what I thought we had and the change to my future dreams and goals and expectations were weighing heavily on me. Today they're not. This weekend they weren't. My emotions are mine and no one controls them, but I manage them now, one day at a time.


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## Rowan

OP, it might help you somewhat to really think about what "forgiveness" is to you. What would it look like if you forgave your ex-husband? Would you think you needed to be his friend? Why? Or would you simply think that you no longer needed to be concerned about him and whatever he's up to? Will not wishing him ill do, or do you feel compelled for some reason to wish him well? 

For myself, I just think of forgiveness as a state of being where I don't wish my ex-husband any ill, but I also don't really think about him much anymore either. I know a lot of people wouldn't really consider that to be forgiveness, because it looks a whole lot more like apathy than anything else. Honestly, what my ex-husband did was really, really, really bad. He's not a purely evil person, but he was a _profoundly_ bad husband. I can give him empathy, compassion, even grace. He's a deeply flawed human being. What I cannot give him is my love, a meaningful presence in my life, or any more of my time or emotions. 

Forgiving him has meant that I feel about him, and treat him, just as I would anyone else that I'd known for a really long time, had some fond memories of, but also recognized as just not a very good person. I don't hate him. I know him. I trust him to be entirely himself. Himself just isn't someone I like all that much or want to have much to do with. And I've decided that that's enough for me. It's forgiveness to the point that I am personally capable of managing. Perhaps it falls short of the ideal. But it works for me.


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## TeddieG

Rowan said:


> OP, it might help you somewhat to really think about what "forgiveness" is to you. What would it look like if you forgave your ex-husband? _*Would you think you needed to be his friend? Why?*_
> 
> No way! I can't be friends with someone who would think it would be okay to pop in and out of my life when his Plan A isn't going well, especially given that he got into the relationship with her in an unhealthy way and won't get out of it in a healthy way either. Their relationship is totally drama-driven, she drinks, they fight, he hits her, and they both love it. I fully expect their story to end like one of those crime shows, Like Love Kills or Fatal Vows or something. Or would you simply think that you no longer needed to be concerned about him and whatever he's up to? Yes, that's it. Will not wishing him ill do, or do you feel compelled for some reason to wish him well? He has some physical and mental health issues, all of which cloud his judgment. He was suffering from severe depression after some surgery for kidney stones, and the doctor destroyed his penis putting in and taking out a stent to prevent the stones from passing. H had ED after that, and blamed me, and also had sundowning/symptoms of dementia, and blood pressure issues. I stood by him through all of that for seven years but he left me for a dangerous [email protected] who likes physical violence and drama; he claims he would never commit suicide but sometimes I think he has a death wish.
> 
> For myself, I just think of forgiveness as a state of being where I don't wish my ex-husband any ill, but I also don't really think about him much anymore either. That's what I want, and I'm getting there. I know a lot of people wouldn't really consider that to be forgiveness, because it looks a whole lot more like apathy than anything else. Honestly, what my ex-husband did was really, really, really bad. He's not a purely evil person, but he was a _profoundly_ bad husband. I can give him empathy, compassion, even grace. That's what I want to do. He's a deeply flawed human being. What I cannot give him is my love, a meaningful presence in my life, or any more of my time or emotions. Exactly.
> 
> Forgiving him has meant that I feel about him, and treat him, just as I would anyone else that I'd known for a really long time, had some fond memories of, but also recognized as just not a very good person. I don't hate him. I know him. I trust him to be entirely himself. Himself just isn't someone I like all that much or want to have much to do with. Now that possibly the REAL 'himself' has shown his true colors, I don't either. But I'll never know if this is the real him or if the guy I thought he was is still in there trying to get out. And I've decided that that's enough for me. It's forgiveness to the point that I am personally capable of managing. Perhaps it falls short of the ideal. But it works for me. And it would work for me too, and I'm almost there.


Thank you for such a thoughtful and reasoned and balanced post. You've given me a lot to think about.


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