# Guess I need to accept some things.



## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Daily fights, up, down, around and around...we both hate it, we both are sick of it. I'm in frustrated tears right now, and I have been battling the feeling of wanting to just run away.

I was so proud of myself yesterday for how I handled the other night's tiff, and now I'm just mad that I got so emotional TODAY. 

Every fight is just another expression of our underlying, foundational problems and dynamics. The details of each fight aren't the real issues.

It seems that one solution to my problem is that I simply ACCEPT the personality traits my husband has, that make life hard sometimes, and make it VERY hard to connect with him. To be fair, each of his difficult traits matches up to one of MY traits that lead to our CONFLICTS.

These traits are:

He's insensitive. (I am very sensitive.)
He is stubborn. (I am too.)
He is argumentative. (I can be, though we have differences in how.)
He doesn't think about his words. (Words are important to me. Sometimes I get hung up and stuck on specific words.)
*He seems capricious...The answer or response I get from him on a question or concern depends VERY much on his mood. He can say "yes" to a question, and within minutes if he's feeling defensive, his answer to the same question turns to "maybe."
*
He will bluntly tell me if he "doesn't care" or isn't interested in talking about something with me, even if it's important or stressful to me. (I have a need to talk about something on my mind WHEN it's on my mind, and talking gives me relief.)
Once his defensive hackles are up, he can't discuss anything important. (I, on the other hand, try to solve whatever issue by discussing, or verbally connecting meaningfully on another topic.)
This one stings--if we're in the middle of a conflict and I'm hurt or upset, he's not empathetic.
He can be judgmental. (I can too, but I don't like this trait in myself or anyone).
He comes across as arrogant. (Again, don't we all sometimes..)

I feel crappy right now because today he said some things that bugged me, he got incredibly stubborn and seemed very unfair and uncaring, and I let it get to me and I yelled back at him.

I wasn't mean and I made valid points---that if I'm going to see his point, he needs to see mine too--but I still feel crappy about it because I was yelling and upset.

I'm trying to take the advice of lots of you here: show him love in his language; don't fight; don't wait or expect for him to do things in return; meet HIS needs; be patient...

But I am not perfect, and sometimes he does say and do things that get under my skin, and yes, I do have needs too, and I do expect that my husband thinks they are valid needs.

Some of the cracks in our foundation are about the fact that I feel insecure with him...I do own those feelings, BUT I also know that he has done and said things over the course of our relationship to give me reason to feel insecure with him.

So, here I am again.

So I ask you, wise people: What to do, how to deal?

(We have therapy tomorrow. Thank God.)


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Can anyone give me any support or advice?

Yes, that is needy of me to ask again.

Yes, I know I'm sounding very critical of my husband and it may sound very one-sided. 

I'm exhausted of all the introspection, of taking responsibility for making things better, and of trying, when it feels like he doesn't want to try and doesn't feel like he should have to try.

I'm having a low moment.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Can anyone give me any support or advice?
> 
> Yes, that is needy of me to ask again.
> 
> Yes, I know I'm sounding very critical of my husband and it may sound very one-sided.


Well I have tried to limit my input to you since you have not responded to it in the past and it may be viewed as critical of you. But here goes.

You BOTH expect too much of each other. You both have gotten into the habit of so much defending yourself and your own territory that you can no longer see the forest for the trees.

So you remember why you two got together? Do you remember what made him seem so wonderful to you? If you don't, then that is a good thing to try to remember. 




> I'm exhausted of all the introspection, of taking responsibility for making things better, and of trying, when it feels like he doesn't want to try and doesn't feel like he should have to try.
> 
> I'm having a low moment.


Yah it sounds like it. I wish I could give you a hug. Maybe a break? Less introspection? Less fix? More bowling? And a beer? It is a stop gap. But it might lighten the load.


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## Orion (Jul 17, 2010)

credamdóchasgra,

I am sorry that you are feeling low right now. When my wife and I argue, sometimes it helps for us to take a few minutes to gather ourselves once we see things getting worse instead of better. If I am annoyed with my wife, I will analyze things to see if I am being reasonable. Sometimes I find that my feelings are unwarranted and I let it go. Perhaps giving your hubby a little room once a discussion is going south will help. 

Also, from your post, you should know that you are right to want your needs met too. If he is being insensitive to your needs, that is not going to help your marriage either. You may want to address with him (yet again) tonight and then redirect in therapy tomorrow. Perhaps the therapist can give you both some tools to help. Good luck.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

@vt, your advice in the past has been helpful to me, and I won't perceive it as critical, because anything that gives ME the power to change something or see my own role in something, I welcome. I'm sorry if I seemed to not respond to advice you gave, I may not have seen a specific post. But from what I remember, your perspective has helped me more than once.

Yes, it's true that we're both stuck in our own defensive postures. SO TRUE. I'm being decisive about getting OUT of that posture myself, hoping he'll follow my lead. And subconsciously, I'm putting constant pressure on myself and probably him, to consciously improve our dynamic. 

Absolutely, I know my husband would love to lighten up the mood and ease the tension--a la "more beer" or "more bowling." I know what you mean, and I can see that at the bottom of it, what he truly wants is an easy, laid-back, low-maintenance relationship with simplicity, acceptance, and no hard feelings. Of course he does, who doesn't??

I do remember you mentioning that in your own experience, it helped you to remember and remind yourself why you fell in love with and married your husband. I'm trying that too, and to be honest, sometimes it's difficult to bring those feelings into my consciousness. But I know how important it is.

I also remember that you said you started with meeting his needs and not asking that your own be met. I'm trying to think that way and do the same, but I guess in the middle of it sometimes, this little voice inside my head goes, "what about me? are you going to let him say what he just said to me? clarify! defend! that was rude! that was insensitive! stand up for yourself!"

But in the big picture, I hope that there's a way back out to the forest and away from these trees, that doesn't involve these fights.

I feel like I have to be a perfect, other-conscious, selfless Buddha to make it happen. I'm not.

At this point, it seems that he perceives my questions, requests, or starting serious discussions, as either a power play, criticism that he's failing me, or an unnecessary need that he doesn't feel he can or should have to meet, that I'm demanding unfairly.

@Orion, thank you...we have been trying for months to successfully use the "time-out" strategy, and we're still working on a way to use it during an argument in a way that both of us are comfortable with...
But I don't feel confident that it'll help to bring it up with him tonight before tomorrow's therapy. It won't meet HIS needs for easy/low maintenance. Maybe if I put his needs for that first--be positive and loving, without the drama--it'll be better for us.

I really appreciate your replies, thank you!!


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> So you remember why you two got together?


He's smart, perceptive, insightful, knows and understands certain things that are important to me.
He takes care of things that need to be taken care of.
He's honest.
He works hard.
He's decisive.
He's confident.
He cares about family.
He does care about what's important to me and is open to listen to me when I need it--I had no doubt about this at first, but lately it doesn't seem as true as it used to be.

I listened to him when he needed to talk, and went out of my way to be with him.
I took care of him when he needed it.
I was cute, smart, held up a decent conversation, and had the right ethnicity and religion for him.

We like to travel and explore together.
We like to watch movies together.
We like to dance together.
We both care about our religious faith.
We have great chemistry.

*@vt, QUESTION: When you are bitter and hurt over the things that are missing, the needs that aren't being met, do the "other" things, all the good things, really help? 

*


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Ah yes. BUT. I believe that strength to come back from the hurt over things that are missing comes from one partner in order to redirect. You literally (you or he... I am not trying to suggest it must be you but you are here) have to make yourself decide not to worry so much about what is missing for YOU.

This is so non-intuitive. I have never been able to express this properly. The looking at the good, the things you fell in love with in the first place are not an end. They are a means to an end. They are part of the process by which you (one) stops trying to GET the other person to do the things you want them to do and start focusing your energy on what he needs and wants. It is part of the motivation you give yourself for wanting to bother to do that, in addition to the hope that a wonderful marriage is hopeful at the end of it.

I truly believe that it is easy for each of us to understand what we want. It is Damned Hard to understand what the other wants. Thus that is where our effort lies. And not until they are motivated will they also want to direct their effort in the same manner.

I hope this makes sense.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> The looking at the good, the things you fell in love with in the first place are not an end. They are a means to an end. They are part of the process by which you (one) stops trying to GET the other person to do the things you want them to do and start focusing your energy on what he needs and wants. It is part of the motivation you give yourself for wanting to bother to do that, in addition to the hope that a wonderful marriage is hopeful at the end of it.
> 
> I truly believe that it is easy for each of us to understand what we want. It is Damned Hard to understand what the other wants. Thus that is where our effort lies. And not until they are motivated will they also want to direct their effort in the same manner.
> 
> I hope this makes sense.


It does make sense...
I motivate myself to want to meet his needs, by remembering how to love him for who he was then, and is now.
And hopefully the love he receives will motivate him to reciprocate, by his own freedom, not because he's expected or pushed.

The other night, he didn't meet my need for "apparent empathy." I was telling him about the doctor's appt. I'd had that day, what I was concerned about, and he was blank. He looked at me and listened, he didn't respond. 
So I asked him to use the dialogue process we're learning in therapy with me...he didn't want to, because I had asked him to. Conversation escalated into tension...

So I said: "OK. I needed something from you, but instead I'll meet your need. You seem to need some space right now." Left the house, came back, he was happy and calm.

Basically I had told myself "Look, he did his best today. He tried. Came home, gave a hug, asked how the appt. went, offered to bring home dinner" and calmed myself down without him.

And today my emotions tumbled out because I was frustrated that *I* keep having to be the one to suck it up and sacrifice my own need in the moment every time. He was rude, insensitive, and unfair today, and I let him know I didn't like it.

But if I need to find the tools to dig us out and that's what it takes right now, then so be it. I just hope we do get out, TOGETHER.

(BTW, I also responded to your first reply in my post above this one, in case you didn't see it. )


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

He stormed out angrily after I brought up today's issues.
If he could learn to say to me "honey, I love you, I know this is important and we'll talk another time about it, but now isn't a good time," instead of being so harsh and distant and nasty in the way he says it, then maybe we wouldn't get to the point where he's storming out in anger.
I guess that's the need of his I didn't meet: the need to NOT discuss it at all.
And my need is TO discuss "it."
he
I believe a compromise exists; we haven't found it yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MsLonely (Sep 23, 2010)

I believe if you would say "honey, I love you, I know this is important and we'll talk another time about it, but now isn't a good time..." he would be less harsh & nasty to you also.

Talk to your husband in a way you would love to be responsed. 

When we respect our husbands, our husbands would respect us back.
When we're fun & loving, he would love us back. 

Your husband is harsh & nasty to you because of you. He isn't harsh & nasty to every woman. Is he?

If you have been nice, polite & positve to him and he's still being nasty to you, it can happen... 

You can tell him that you don't like his attitude and cut off the conversation immediately and go away, instead of fighting with him for more fighting.

I'm always fun & loving to my husband but sometimes men can just get cranky without a reason, in that case, I would tell my husband I don't like his attitude and I'll go away from him, because I don't want to argue more or inform him why I don't like his attitude in details. 

I will just turn around. Very soon he would come to apologise and say he's sorry. Next time, he would be more careful and not to anyhow get cranky when talking to me. 

My husband and me seldom have arguments. We're a peaceful couple.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

@mslonely, I tried that. I said "ok we'll talk another time." 

And he said "maybe." which he knows I hate, because it doesn't reassure me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Listen to me...

Give that reassurance to yourself.

You know damned well you'll talk about it again.

Stop with the head above water happiness.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Listen to me...
> 
> Give that reassurance to yourself.
> 
> ...


Funny, he tells me I should give myself that reassurance, but not in an "of course you can trust that we'll talk about it again, silly" way. More in a "Well, IF you're going to ASK me, then the answer is MAYBE. HA!"

But aside from that, yes, it's true. I guess I believe I would feel HAPPY if he'd say it to me with love and patience. I figure "head above water happiness" is me settling for what he can give me when it is very limited.

And it gets under my skin when he says "Maybe," because it seems like he's only saying it to keep me on my toes, and as a defense mechanism, like "haha, you can't tell me what to agree to." When really and truly, like you say, it IS something we'll talk about again.

And sometimes the "it" we'll talk about again isn't even a relationship issue...it may be a concern I have about my work, and if I ask if we'll talk about it, he says "Why are you asking? You should know the answer," then if the conversation continues, he then says "Maybe."

Like he's saying 2 things at once:
1. Trust me and be secure enough not to have to ask.
2. If you do ask, the answer's "maybe" and thus you can't trust me.

IMO, these are immature mind games and are not loving. It's not cool.

But for some reason this is where he is right now. It's a defensive, mistrustful "i'll get you before you get me" place. Clearly I can't "talk" him out of that place. But I don't want to live there with him.

Which is why I keep breathing in and out the mantra "Lead by example."


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> The other night, he didn't meet my need for "apparent empathy." I was telling him about the doctor's appt. I'd had that day, what I was concerned about, and he was blank. He looked at me and listened, he didn't respond.
> So I asked him to use the dialogue process we're learning in therapy with me...he didn't want to, because I had asked him to. Conversation escalated into tension...


Hmmmm. This worked for me. Don't need the things you think you need. Meet your needs yourself or find another way to get them met.

You guys have lost the forest for the trees. When ONE conversation can send any positive work out the window into a tense situation, that is what is going on. Meeting each others' needs is a big picture, macro situation. Not a conversation by conversation event. If your needs involve a particular reaction with each and every interaction, then, frankly, you are too needy. No one can do that. If you feel generally empathized with, on balance and overall, then you are getting your needs met. 

And he is going to have no desire to do that until he resumes feeling love from YOU. (Of course he could bite the bullet and initiate the change. And I would tell him so if he were here. But he isn't.) And it is not going to be one instance of you doing what he wants to be met with him doing what you want. That is tit-for-tat. It is going to be a month, a month and a half... something of you consistently putting aside your needs and focusing on his to possible engender this change.




> So I said: "OK. I needed something from you, but instead I'll meet your need. You seem to need some space right now." Left the house, came back, he was happy and calm.
> 
> Basically I had told myself "Look, he did his best today. He tried. Came home, gave a hug, asked how the appt. went, offered to bring home dinner" and calmed myself down without him.
> 
> And today my emotions tumbled out because I was frustrated that *I* keep having to be the one to suck it up and sacrifice my own need in the moment every time. He was rude, insensitive, and unfair today, and I let him know I didn't like it.


Yup. Sucks. Life ain't fair. How did you let him know?

Some men are like small children. Their mommies did everything for them and took it when they acted like jerks. And they need to be taught how to live like a grown up human being. 



> But if I need to find the tools to dig us out and that's what it takes right now, then so be it. I just hope we do get out, TOGETHER.


Alas and alack there is no guarantee. He is a different person. He may chose to remain beligerent. (I may also be giving you **** advice for your situation! It worked for me. That doesn't mean it will work for everyone!)



> (BTW, I also responded to your first reply in my post above this one, in case you didn't see it. )


I did. Thank you. Being a big mouth, I don't always know if my words are unwittingly hurting someone. That was what I wanted to make sure I avoided.

I sure do hope you guys work it out. You are struggling so hard.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Hmmmm. This worked for me. Don't need the things you think you need. Meet your needs yourself or find another way to get them met.
> 
> You guys have lost the forest for the trees. When ONE conversation can send any positive work out the window into a tense situation, that is what is going on. Meeting each others' needs is a big picture, macro situation. Not a conversation by conversation event. If your needs involve a particular reaction with each and every interaction, then, frankly, you are too needy. No one can do that. If you feel generally empathized with, on balance and overall, then you are getting your needs met.
> 
> ...


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

Can you let him off the hook with some of your "neediness"? Is there someone else you can talk to about some of the things that concern you (dr. appt)? That might not be your getting what you need/want from him...but it's a "pick your battle" kinda thing. You probably know at this point what's going to cause him to zone out when you bring it up, and what he might seriously sit up and take notice to. Can you lighten his load a little? 

Sometimes I think we just expect or want too much from the other person. Maybe they can deliver, maybe they can't. And when they can't, we get our feelings hurt..we feel slighted. And I believe that at times we can lean too heavily on the other one. I get where you're coming from, I truly do. But maybe...just for the time being until you get further along in counseling, can you just cut him some slack? Understanding that I don't know the intricities of your marriage..just someone on the outside looking in at ONE side here. 

Patience is hard. I used to want things fixed YESTERDAY. I figured out that life is going to teach me patience one way or the other. Tough pill to swallow, that.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

major misfit said:


> Can you let him off the hook with some of your "neediness"?
> 
> Can you lighten his load a little?


Yup, I should've. Last night AND Tues. night, he did two specific things that I'd asked for in terms of support for me...so then instead of accepting and appreciating those things for what they were, I kept on needing. I asked for more, for what he didn't want to, or couldn't give: empathetic conversation.

I realize this. This is very good advice.

Tonight in counseling, I need to let him know that I understand this, and that he HAS given me reason to trust him, more than I may have given him credit for this week. 

But I can't beat myself up over it and I can't bear the ENTIRE responsibility of our issues on myself, and maybe I can add some humor to the situation, throw up my hands in a "MEA CULPA!", and say "Hey dude, I'm not perfect. I'll scale back the neediness and intensity, give me a break!"


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Listen to me...
> 
> Give that reassurance to yourself.
> 
> ...


This is the best advice I've seen (no offense to anyone else please).

I'm the same way as the poster, I want to talk about it, hash it out and go on with my day - husband doesn't. Shuts down, gets silent or stops and pretends or says he doesn't care - INFURIATING.

But - one thing true about the above statement is "stop with the head above water happiness." What this says to me is we think that for our marriage to be successful it has always to be the toe-curling passion it was in the beginning and if it's not happy, then it's not successful. We also tend to think our spouse's are responsible for making us happy - not true. My counselor has told me time and time again that the only person responsible for my happiness is ME. I cannot rely on my husband making me happy. It's the reason he told me that sometimes "you have to blow sunshine up your own ***."

We need to take back ourselves and quit relying on the "men" in our lives to be everything and be the reason we are happy or not.

My counselor has also told me that the only person that can make me unhappy is myself. He said that I own how I let people get to me, how I react to what people do, etc. That I can choose to not let them make me unhappy or bring me down or I can choose to let them may me unhappy or bring me down - that it's all my choice, not someone else's.

Our spouses are who they are. They were who they were when we met and married them, but love/lust is blind and we tend to ignore or overlook those things that may become problems later. But as my mama used to say - you picked him. 

So the bottom line is - you look at what you like/dislike about your husband. You decide if the things you dislike are really important or not and can you live with them. In other words, does the good outweigh the bad - if yes, then you stay and work it out, if not, then you leave.

I, as others here on TAM have issues in my marriage. But I have taken stock and decided what I could/could not live with and accept right now even if I don't like it. Now I say right now, things could change in the future - but I'm willing to work hard and accept the things I cannot change for him - I can only change myself.

Good luck in counselling!


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

@MWIL, where is the cheerleader with pom-poms emoticon when you need it? Thank you for the pep talk!

I am trying to figure out how to be married. I guess my husband is too.

Before him, I never had a relationship longer than a year. Before him, I never felt committed to someone enough to stick around or put forth real effort. Before him, I had the UPPER HAND in EVERY relationship I'd ever been in. This is a humbling education.


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

So he gave you an inch and you took a mile?  I agree with VHSM..you're going to have to give yourself your own happiness. You just can't rely on other people in this life to give you what you should be giving to yourself. It's not fair to them. Too big of a burden, and an impossible one at that. 

You're going to have to expand your horizons a bit. Starting from within.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Funny, he tells me I should give myself that reassurance, but not in an "of course you can trust that we'll talk about it again, silly" way. More in a "Well, IF you're going to ASK me, then the answer is MAYBE. HA!"
> 
> But aside from that, yes, it's true. I guess I believe I would feel HAPPY if he'd say it to me with love and patience. I figure "head above water happiness" is me settling for what he can give me when it is very limited.
> 
> ...


Do you feel like you're in grade school?

If so, it's time for graduation.

He is FEEDING off your continued overtures to make things right.

The one with the least investment in the relationship has the control.

I wish you could see this.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> He is FEEDING off your continued overtures to make things right.
> 
> The one with the least investment in the relationship has the control.


So how do I regain some control? 

Seriously.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Let go of control. Let go of expectation. Go be YOU. Do things you like. Stop asking and pressuring. Stop thinking of each interaction as some kind of grand experiment. Take up dancing. Take up karate, chess, raquetball. Whatever.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> Let go of control. Let go of expectation. Go be YOU. Do things you like. Stop asking and pressuring. Stop thinking of each interaction as some kind of grand experiment. Take up dancing. Take up karate, chess, raquetball. Whatever.


Yeah. 
I hear you. I'm depleting myself of energy by focusing ALL my energy on relationship issues.


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

You've both taken a big step by recognizing there are issues, you are both committed to counselling and you've agreed to work on them - that's better than most, so you're headed in the right direction - remember, "this too shall pass."


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> You've both taken a big step by recognizing there are issues, you are both committed to counselling and you've agreed to work on them - that's better than most, so you're headed in the right direction - remember, "this too shall pass."


Thank you.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

No doubt MWIL is quite right.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

vthomeschoolmom said:


> No doubt MWIL is quite right.


I hope so. I always go to our sessions with the highest hopes, and then it's the time in between when things keep falling apart.

The common threads through everyone's advice I've gotten here boil down to:

Chill out.
Ease up.
Back off.
Relax.
Be strong.
Be patient.
Control and rely on myself, don't try to control him and don't rely on him to meet every need in every moment.

So here's to trying not to try so freaking hard.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

I have a very strong feeling that you are gonna make it. You have a good head on your shoulders. Keep us posted!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I hope so. I always go to our sessions with the highest hopes, and then it's the time in between when things keep falling apart.
> 
> The common threads through everyone's advice I've gotten here boil down to:
> 
> ...


Credam,

Have you ever heard of Richard Schwartz?

Forgive if I've already asked this.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

You mentioned him on another one of my threads, but I don't know who he is or what he wrote.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I just googled him, and he's a math professor at Brown University...

?

Ok, just tried again on Amazon.

Self-Therapy? Marriage in Motion?


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## major misfit (Oct 17, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I hope so. I always go to our sessions with the highest hopes, and then it's the time in between when things keep falling apart.
> 
> The common threads through everyone's advice I've gotten here boil down to:
> 
> ...



Now *I'm* the one that needs a cheerleader emo!! Woot!


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## 4sure (Aug 8, 2010)

You are overwhelming the man. Get involved in other things.
What's your hobbies, likes. Maybe take a class. Work on improving yourself. Get involved in some charity/community work.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

4sure said:


> You are overwhelming the man. Get involved in other things.
> What's your hobbies, likes. Maybe take a class. Work on improving yourself. Get involved in some charity/community work.


Point taken.

@vt, I just saw your vote of confidence--thank you!


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