# How did you tell your spouse you will leave if things didn't change?



## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I ask this because I hope for a peaceful, clear, non-blaming conversation in which I let him know the marriage is on the line.
I don't want the fight, so I want to communicate this in an honest way that doesn't get his defenses up. 
How?

I want to know how you have an "ultimatum" conversation...are there guidelines?

I hope for a positive outcome---for my H to care, wake up, agree to go to counseling, or take other steps to improve things.
But I'll also be ready for the possibility that he simply won't. 
He doesn't know how serious the stakes are---he has no idea I'd leave.

Who has had to say something like this to your spouse?
What did you say? How did you say it?
Any advice? 
Is there some kind of playbook for this???
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TemperToo (Apr 23, 2011)

Ours stemmed from a fight.....that's not the route you want to go.  Don't I wish there was a playbook. And a crystal ball that foretold the future. Or even telling you if you are making the right decision. 

The biggest problem I'm running into with this is following through. I still think my hubby doesn't REALLY think I am going to leave. And i guess I don't either. I KNOW I need to follow through. I can't live like this anymore. But it hurts so bad.

So I guess my advice is to have more planned out before you actually have the conversation. Like finances, a place to go, etc. 

I want mine to wake up too, but I don't really think it's going to happen.


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## ThinkTooMuch (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I ask this because I hope for a peaceful, clear, non-blaming conversation in which I let him know the marriage is on the line.
> I don't want the fight, so I want to communicate this in an honest way that doesn't get his defenses up.
> How?
> 
> ...


My stbx listened to my issues, said she would change her behavior. Her changes lasted for days and she went back to the same behavior that pushed me away.

After three years of this I had enough. I said we need to divorce, and left. I saw no reason for an ultimatum - she lacked the ability to change and I had gone through cycle after cycle of knocking my head against a concrete wall.

I ask - why do you think an ultimatum will get through to him and be effective?

I think you've been hitting your head as hard as I have.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Softest version:
I love you and want to make this work. That said I am concerned that if we don't break this cycle of destructive conflict, it will ultimately break the marriage. I am glad to address my part of it, and I need to know you are also fully committed to working on that with me. 

Firmer version:
I love you and want to make this work. If we don't break this cycle of destructive conflict, I think we will soon reach the point of no return. I am glad to address my part of it, and I need to know you are also fully committed to working on that with me. 


Firm version:
I want to make this work. However for the marriage to survive even to the end of the year, we need to break this cycle of destructive conflict that we have. Do you want to work with me to try and fix it?




credamdóchasgra said:


> I ask this because I hope for a peaceful, clear, non-blaming conversation in which I let him know the marriage is on the line.
> I don't want the fight, so I want to communicate this in an honest way that doesn't get his defenses up.
> How?
> 
> ...


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Softest version:
> I love you and want to make this work. That said I am concerned that if we don't break this cycle of destructive conflict, it will ultimately break the marriage. I am glad to address my part of it, and I need to know you are also fully committed to working on that with me.
> 
> Firmer version:
> ...


:iagree:


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

There's one version a bit firmer than that.

"Get out of my house - now"





MEM11363 said:


> Softest version:
> I love you and want to make this work. That said I am concerned that if we don't break this cycle of destructive conflict, it will ultimately break the marriage. I am glad to address my part of it, and I need to know you are also fully committed to working on that with me.
> 
> Firmer version:
> ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I think it just depends where you are in your head and your heart. My situation was that I knew over the years I’d tried everything, that I’d left no stones unturned. I also knew that I’d emptied myself of patience, tolerance, empathy and compassion. I was “running on empty” as far as those things were concerned and I felt like that I’d emptied myself of my love for my wife. I knew I could get it back but it would need work on her behalf.

So the last time “round the block” instead of being patient and understanding I became intolerant of her behaviour that gave me problems. And I did this by way of ultimatums. None of the things I gave my wife ultimatums for were a surprise for her, believe it or not one of them was “Unless you come to MC with me our marriage is over”.

My wife’s response to my ultimatums was to tell me something like “We’ve been through all this before, it’s over, I’ve booked my flight back to England”.

While the actual separation was exceedingly difficult for me, massive negative emotions for 6 months, I have not once regretted giving my wife my ultimatums. It’s now been 18 months and only once in an exceedingly subtle way has my wife attempted a reconciliation. She left something for me to pick up, giving me the opportunity to get back in touch with her. I needed one heck of a lot more than that.

But my wife’s response to my ultimatums plus her lack of effort at reconciliation has told me all I need to know. My wife is just not that into me and even if she were she is totally unwillingly to work on our relationship.

While we’re now on some form of amicable separation (at least I think we are, I don’t know) our actually separation, the moment it happened, was exceedingly spiteful and undignified. But I don’t think the two of us were capable of a dignified parting and I think that’s because in some strange ways there was still a lot of love there, or maybe the memory of the love that was there, I’m not at all sure which.

So if you are going to separate then I’d suggest calmly thinking the whole process through and “Do it with dignity”.

But you will know mainly by your emotions if your time together has really come to an end.

Bob


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## Nickitta (May 12, 2011)

Although all 3x versions are good, some people will go in a "wild panick" and loose control of all their senses as soon as they hear the word *"break up".* I will remove it altogether


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Softest version:
> I love you and want to make this work. That said I am concerned that if we don't break this cycle of destructive conflict, it will ultimately break the marriage. I am glad to address my part of it, and I need to know you are also fully committed to working on that with me.
> 
> Firmer version:
> ...


All of your wording would be good for a person who so far had acted a LITTLE like he gave a heck. I don't think this wording is strong enough to get through to him. One more yah yah yah.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I knew you people would be helpful with this. 
MEM, it'll probably go something like one of your versions.
I'll probably post different ideas as I work up to this...

In general....
I'm guessing it's advisable to avoid accusatory talk?
Avoid long diatribes about what's already happened--what I'm doing, been trying, etc.?
Stay focused on the present, the future, and the practical---WHAT are we (you) going to do about this?
Open ended conversation, not demands.
Should I bring up all my specific concerns about having kids? (in an earlier thread) 

I also think it'll be important to be gentle and curious as well as firm----ask questions and listen to the answers.
ABSOLUTELY not on the heels of a fight.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dedicated2Her (Nov 13, 2010)

How about this?

"I don't know how to tell you this, but I am becoming detached from you. I'm not running to get a lawyer, yet. But, if we continue on this path, I cannot guarantee how our future will turn out."


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

ThinkTooMuch said:


> I ask - why do you think an ultimatum will get through to him and be effective?


I don't know if it will, but I hope it will. 
I've heard it has with others' marriages.

I know that he loves me, and i have seen the side of him that's willing to work for us.

Lately he's just going crazy because he can't stand the change in me that demonstrates intolerance of his bad behavior and my refusal to play in the mud with him.
He thinks I'm being high and mighty---and as it's been pointed out to me here, I have come across that way, so I'll work on that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Nickitta said:


> Although all 3x versions are good, some people will go in a "wild panick" and loose control of all their senses as soon as they hear the word *"break up".* I will remove it altogether


Yes, that's part of the risk.

When he feels afraid that there's a "threat," he flips out and lashes out.

This is 100% uncharted territory for us. NEVER have said something like this to him before.
ALWAYS said "no matter what baby, I'm here for you!"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

My issue w/ my ex was stonewalling. He would completely blank me for days/weeks on end.
So he did it again and I told him "This is the last time.I am serious. I dont want to live in an environment where the basic human decency of speaking to your partner doesn't happen." Asked him to go to MC, the works, etc--he refused.

Well the last time he did it, it lasted MUCH longer this time than any other... I left.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

AFEH said:


> But my wife’s response to my ultimatums plus her lack of effort at reconciliation has told me all I need to know.


This was my story as well.

Crema, how long have you been together?

I think when you've told someone there is a problem numerous times and it's affecting you badly and offered up counselling and asked what you can do to help and change too and they still won't meet you halfway--that doesn't bode well for the future.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Jellybeans said:


> This was my story as well.
> 
> Crema, how long have you been together?
> 
> I think when you've told someone there is a problem numerous times and it's affecting you badly and offered up counselling and asked what you can do to help and change too and they still won't meet you halfway--that doesn't bode well for the future.


We've been together 3 years, married almost one year.

He did go to MC with me for 7 months, till he decided to boycott. 
I then started IC without him, been at that for about 6 weeks.

What's weird is that he reacts at nuclear level, to small annoyances from me---and then screams that he's "sick of putting up with the same old crap!!"
----when it's obvious it's not "the same." it's very clearly different.
that's what kind of confuses me.

*I'm behaving differently, yet he flips out and says he's sick of what I've been doing this whole time.

that doesn't even make sense. ???
Posted via Mobile Device*


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## paleview (May 11, 2011)

*I think when you've told someone there is a problem numerous times and it's affecting you badly and offered up counselling and asked what you can do to help and change too and they still won't meet you halfway--that doesn't bode well for the future.*

I think that says it. This is extremely hard, and I, like most find myself in the same boat asking myself the same questions. I wait for things to change and then 3 years go by, then 5, then 6. I think my therapist said the most obvious thing to me - it takes two. Takes two to make it work and takes two to make it break. If he isnt meeting you half way - the pain is the same just it will eventually ease up if you give yourself a break and see what or how things can move forward - (or not)

I wish you luck.. and happiness.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

He's not meeting me halfway because I haven't overtly asked him to.
I backed off, to see what he'd do if I back off and stop pushing him.
I don't know what will happen when I ask him to meet me halfway.

What I hope for is that he goes to IC. 
I'll settle for his willingness to read one or two freaking books.

I think he's denying the reality that it takes two.
He's living in the illusion that "if Credam would just.." then we'd have no problems. ::
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> What's weird is that he reacts at nuclear level, to small annoyances from me---and then screams that he's "sick of putting up with the same old crap!!"


Please give an example of his nuclear level reaction. 



credamdóchasgra said:


> He's not meeting me halfway because I haven't overtly asked him to.


You need to ASK HIM STRAIGHT UP to meet you halfway!


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Jellybeans said:


> You need to ASK HIM STRAIGHT UP to meet you halfway!


His answer will tell you one heck of a lot.

Bob


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Jellybeans said:


> Please give an example of his nuclear level reaction.
> 
> 
> 
> You need to ASK HIM STRAIGHT UP to meet you halfway!


Just read any of my other threads. There's a delightful little novel about a note I left him the other day.
In sum: if I disagree w/him, or repeat myself to make a point, he goes nuclear. If he goes nuclear, it's my fault.

Understand that I backed off because he told me to back off.
TAM friends suggested I was pushing too hard (I was). Lay off, give him space.
See what happens when I'm not dragging him kicking and screaming to MC. When I go to IC to care for myself (which I'm glad to do).
Stop being so needy, see if he wants to join you.
So I am. And he doesn't know how to handle it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## paleview (May 11, 2011)

I agree with Jellybeans. 

DO THIS - make a list of WHAT YOU WANT an ONLY YOU- sit with him and say - THIS IS WHAT I WANT - be clear and honest. do not let him leave your site until you both understand, communicate and come to terms.

Then make a decision on how that goes. YOu are opening up with us on here - do the exact same thing with him. DO NOT be afraid. be confident - and strong.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

paleview said:


> I agree with Jellybeans.
> 
> DO THIS - make a list of WHAT YOU WANT an ONLY YOU- sit with him and say - THIS IS WHAT I WANT - be clear and honest. do not let him leave your site until you both understand, communicate and come to terms.
> 
> Then make a decision on how that goes. YOu are opening up with us on here - do the exact same thing with him. DO NOT be afraid. be confident - and strong.


Yes. Confident and strong.

But not pushy, teachery, whiney, demanding, or needy.

I've had that attitude you describe above. Doesn't work. "WHAT I WANT" puts him on the defensive.
I honestly think gentle and firm are the way to go. Calm and curious. And certain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MarriedWifeInLove (May 28, 2010)

I don't think HOW you say it is ever going to soften the blow for someone who doesn't want to hear it or doesn't expect to hear it.

Anytime you mention divorce or break-up it always generates panic, awe and shock.

I'm not sure there is EVER a good way to approach someone and say - if things don't change, I'm leaving.

When I approached my husband - I didn't get screaming, yelling, WTF, anything. He was calm, cool and collected, and said "if that's what you want, I won't stop you." Nothing - it was like talking to a brick wall - but then again - he has "issues."

Not any advice - but, if you're concerned things might get physical - make sure you have back-up or it's someplace where other people are around.

People have been known to do some crazy things in desperate times.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> In sum: if I disagree w/him, or repeat myself to make a point, he goes nuclear. If he goes nuclear, it's my fault.


Sorry to hear that. This was my marriage. It got super old.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Anyone know of any books on this question?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

Although my story isn't exactly an ultimatum, I think it applies.

I felt like I had talked with my H enough and explained how his lying made me feel. I planned whether or not to stay with him based on how his business trip went. He was texting late at night with a female and came home. I asked him if he deleted any texts, he said no. I went through his phone and their texts were deleted. I asked him if he was positive he didn't delete anything and he said yes.

I looked him in the eye and asked him who S.F. was. He stumbled for a while. While he was trying to make excuses I politely asked if I could interrupt him and told him that I would be leaving with the children at the end of the school year. I informed him where I would be living, how I would pay for everything, and that I was willing to leave him everything except the children. He begged and pleaded and I kept steady the entire time. Not losing your cool speaks to how serious you are. 

I think the fact that I had a well thought out plan showed him I meant business. I wasn't exactly giving an ultimatum, but I still think it's important to have a plan in place in case your H tries to call your bluff. If you show him you've thought through this he won't assume you're acting only because of your emotions.

My H did a 180. It brought out some bad (he's now a "nice guy" to the extreme) though, so be prepared for a new set of issues to crop up. During this process I've realized that there was more than just the lying going on. I was fooling myself for quite some time. Still, I waver between staying and leaving because he's shown immense effort. My H was just as stubborn as yours. Knowing I wanted to leave was the only thing that made him change his ways permanently.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

WhereAmI said:


> Although my story isn't exactly an ultimatum, I think it applies.
> 
> I felt like I had talked with my H enough and explained how his lying made me feel.
> My H did a 180. It brought out some bad (he's now a "nice guy" to the extreme) though, so be prepared for a new set of issues to crop up. During this process I've realized that there was more than just the lying going on. I was fooling myself for quite some time. Still, I waver between staying and leaving because he's shown immense effort. My H was just as stubborn as yours. Knowing I wanted to leave was the only thing that made him change his ways permanently.


Yes. He knows how his yelling/cussing/reacting/threatening/shutting down make me feel.

And my changed response of cool withdrawing instead of lecturing/fixing/discussing definitely has brought out some bad in him.
Some real lashing out.

But I haven't put the marriage on the line yet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Questions I may need to ask him:

If I demonstrate an annoying habit--repeating myself to make a point, countering or challenging something you say with my own opinion--can you allow that with a response that does not include yelling and cussing? *If I can't let my quirks and imperfections show once in awhile without provoking a yelling, cussing rage, I feel unaccepted, silenced, and unsafe to be myself. I will need to remove myself from an environment in which it's not safe for me to be myself, even if it sometimes means having a flaw or quirk.*

Can we use the tools we learned at MC to uplift each other, solve problems, and build our relationship, and not as a tool to tear each other down? If we both agree that we'll use the MC tools to air concerns, understand and, help each other, and solve problems, I have confidence in us. *If you only reference our MC ideas as a weapon to attack me, yell at me, or call me out on what you think I'm doing wrong--in the heat of your anger--I feel like we are not being true to the commitment we've made. I will need to remove myself from a situation that's not allowing me to stay true to my commitment.*

There will be more...
Feedback welcome.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Another tid-bit (I'm brainstorming):

"I love YOU. And I accept YOU. But I cannot accept some of your behaviors and reactions. *I cannot accept being yelled at with profanity as a tactic to make me stop talking.*" 

"When I disagree with you or want to make a point, it does not mean I don't accept you. It means I would like to connect with you through conversation. *When my attempts to connect with you are continually shot down with yelling and profanity, I feel disconnected from you. If that keeps happening, I will eventually leave a marriage in which I feel disconnected from my partner."*


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Another tid-bit (I'm brainstorming):
> 
> "I love YOU. And I accept YOU. But I cannot accept some of your behaviors and reactions. I cannot accept being yelled at with profanity *as a tactic to make me stop talking.*"


Take the bolded part out. It's an assumption. You have no idea WHY he does it. You want to go into this stating facts only.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

WhereAmI said:


> Take the bolded part out. It's an assumption. You have no idea WHY he does it. You want to go into this stating facts only.


OK, thanks, facts only.

I do have some idea why he does it, though. We did go through MC. 

He fears conversation, he fears it'll lead to violent arguments. He feels helpless when he thinks I'm "over-talking." 

So the best defense is a strong offense.

(btw, you have no idea how much LESS i talk anymore)


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## momforcalm (May 12, 2011)

You asked about books. I'm new here and am not sure if there's a section/sticky, but I have gotten the most help (so far) from The 5 Love Languages. I also liked "The 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work" but admit to reading only the first three chapters before lending the book (did not get it back; that couple is now separated  ). I really appreciated the 5 Love Languages book. When I kept the process at the forefront of my mind, my husband was reinvigorated and kind, doing things he used to do without my asking. But as soon as I let it slip and ignored what I believed to be HIS love language, the emotional separation was back. I really need to revisit it.


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## AvaTara539 (Apr 10, 2011)

Mom6547 said:


> All of your wording would be good for a person who so far had acted a LITTLE like he gave a heck. I don't think this wording is strong enough to get through to him. One more yah yah yah.


^ditto


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

momforcalm said:


> You asked about books. I'm new here and am not sure if there's a section/sticky, but I have gotten the most help (so far) from The 5 Love Languages. I also liked "The 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work" but admit to reading only the first three chapters before lending the book (did not get it back; that couple is now separated  ). I really appreciated the 5 Love Languages book. When I kept the process at the forefront of my mind, my husband was reinvigorated and kind, doing things he used to do without my asking. But as soon as I let it slip and ignored what I believed to be HIS love language, the emotional separation was back. I really need to revisit it.


Oh, there is no doubt that my husband would be nice to me if I was constantly kind-hearted and sweet to him.

If I never had a negative response his bad moments. If I just accepted all bad behavior like a doormat--no doubt, he'd be sweet.

The problem for me is when he does do something rude or hurtful, and I let him know I don't like it...he doesn't tolerate my boundary enforcement.

If I had no boundaries to enforce, no expectations of respect and maturity, I'd have myself a sweetheart of a husband.


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## momforcalm (May 12, 2011)

The Love Languages is not necessarily sweetness. It posits that everybody has a different "Love Language" - and he breaks them down into five different kinds: Acts of Service, Receiving Gifts, Quality Time, Physical Touch, and Words of Affirmation. For instance, I learned that my love language is Acts of Service. When my husband does things for me, like rub my feet, or pick up the living room, or open the car door, etc., - that tells me he loves me. That is unique to me. His love language is Quality Time, with a "dialect" of conversation. When I look at him and have a conversation with him and let him see I'm listening to him, he responds positively and feels loved. Some people feel love when they receive gifts, but think nothing of love when you wash the dishes. My husband will give me a million compliments, but it doesn't tell me he loves me the same way doing the dishes does. Yet for someone else, compliments would tell them wholly that they are loved. In marriage, after courtship, we typically stop responding to our partner's love language. My husband doesn't do much for me like he used to, either because I failed to respond in kind with his love language, he became too stressed, he didn't realize how important it was to me, etc. But after reading the book, I changed simple things in response to his language. When my son came screaming up to us, instead of interrupting my husband to attend to our son, I'd tell our son to wait because I was talking to daddy, then I'd look at my husband and ask him to finish, responding to his love language of quality time. By doing that ONE thing over a week, I could see my husband felt happier. He was getting attention from me that he hadn't been for a long time.

Some people respond like this by getting a gift - a flower, a necklace, a dinner. Some respond by being told words of affirmation. Some respond by having a meal cooked, doing the vacuuming, etc. 

Unless your partner's love language is words of affirmation with a dialect of compliments, then sweet words, etc., will not work. But when you want to try, it's an exploration into your courtship when you were most happy and actually trying to fulfill ALL the love languages. You determine what your partner responds to best, when s/he seems happiest, and you've identified the love language.

I found it incredibly useful. Useful still. I just have to remember to stick to it until it's habit to relax. My husband and I have been on 3 dates in 3 years since our son was born. At the first one, we were talking for 20 minutes and I realized "I'm not annoyed!" My husband was on a high from this simple thing for a month. Talking is important to him, and I'd been too tired to talk and pay attention and give him attention, instead thinking he was selfish for wanting so much of me after a tiring day raising a baby by myself. But it's not hard... he had needs just like I do. And by the end of the week after reading that book, without asking, my husband responded in his happiness by unconsciously acting on my own love language: he was performing acts of service, like helping me clean up before bedtime and changing my son's diaper. It was great! I was totally shocked. 

I think the book is worth a read. I got it for $5 on my Kindle app (but now I have Kindle - reading it on my small phone screen sort of sucked.  )


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Ive read it.

I wanted to know if there's a book that helps you address my original question with your spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## magnoliagal (Mar 30, 2011)

Have you looked into toxic people type books? I've read a few over the years and they give lines to tell people that won't respect your boundaries. Can't remember a specific title. I've read so many self help and marriage books they are all running together now.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

magnoliagal said:


> Have you looked into toxic people type books? I've read a few over the years and they give lines to tell people that won't respect your boundaries. Can't remember a specific title. I've read so many self help and marriage books they are all running together now.


I read "toxic men" the other night. Disturbing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

magnoliagal said:


> Have you looked into toxic people type books? I've read a few over the years and they give lines to tell people that won't respect your boundaries.


Can you list some of the lines you read to say to someone not respecting your boundaries?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Jellybeans said:


> Can you list some of the lines you read to say to someone not respecting your boundaries?


Yeah, I want to know that too!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nnoodle (Jul 10, 2011)

Mine doesn't go nuclear. 

He withdraws completely. 

I wrote another letter two weeks ago (seven pages on just instances from that week that show his indifference despite his assertions otherwise).

A full week went by without the slightest acknowledgement of the letter. NOTHING! When I finally brought it up his response "Your right. How can I argue with what you wrote" 

Hello? I wasn't looking to be right or have an arguement. I was communicating my perspective and feelings. My role in enabling him. 

So tired of begging for engagement/ emotion. Something, anything. 

Its almost shocking the absolute derth of response from him even though I have lived with it for 13+ years.


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