# A question for LD persons



## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

As an HD person I can say that I have done a lot of re-thinking/feeling in order to accomodate my spouses LD. 

I have over the past number of years ( 10+ at least), given her space, not "pestered" her, refrained from sexual innuendo's, stopped "gropping", became less adventurous in bed ( she gave me a speech about every episode becoming a "sexual adventure" and she didn't like it), respected her wishes about not asking for sex in the morning and afternoon. ( night only ) and so on. It's gone so far as to me censoring my own sexual thoughts. 

Somehow to me this has all seemed one sided as I have not seen any evidence of my spouse working on increasing her libido. In other words the frequency and quality has dropped off significantly since I began this practice mentioned above. 

I ( thinking she'd be interested ) bought her some supplements from the health food store a number of years ago designed at increasing a women's libido. She was insulted and would not even think about trying them. As in her words did not feel she had a problem. 

Does she not care about my needs at all? As the old saying goes 'the more sex you have the more you want to have" but it would seem the reverse is also true in my case due to my efforts to accomodate her. 

What do LD people that are interested in increasing their sex drive do in order to increase their drive other than having more sex?

Have any of you HD persons noticed that you are going through the same thing I have outlined?


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## Accipiter777 (Jul 22, 2011)

I'm a man of few words... You have catered to her without her knowing what it is you need... she has no reason to be different... Time for a sit down and let her know just how selfish she is. Be less of a "good guy", but at the same time, dont be an a$$hole either... be firm, but flexible.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Accipiter777 said:


> I'm a man of few words... You have catered to her without her knowing what it is you need... she has no reason to be different... Time for a sit down and let her know just how selfish she is. Be less of a "good guy", but at the same time, dont be an a$$hole either... be firm, but flexible.


I do agree and have let her know on several occasions what my postion and needs are. That's why I now believe that this has been one sided on my part as I really see no effort from her. Am I wrong to expect an effort from her? I am direct and feel I approach her in a respectful manner. She feels I am trying to control her. ( her words)


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## honeysuckle rose (Jun 11, 2010)

As a woman who is LD, I can tell you that I've tried herbal stimulants, creams, therapy, behavior modification. Some of it worked for a while. It probably would have continued to work and I would have got my groove back (like Stella) if I was still interested for my own benefit.

This question is like asking you how can you curb your drive and enthusiasm for sex? Truly a question without answer. We are who we are. 

Having more sex for some of us doesn't make us want it more - just the opposite. 

If she isn't willing to meet you at least halfway when you have made all these shots in the dark...what is left for you to do, but live unhappily or go find happiness somewhere else?

Perhaps this link can help us BOTH: http://marriagegems.com/2012/07/31/reasons-women-may-not-desire-sex/


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## 40isthenew20 (Jul 12, 2012)

If she is LD and you don't initiate, you'll never have sex. Same situation at my house. I've tried to talk to her so tat she can maybe find out what's keeping her icy and pssssst...nada. I've grown used to the situation and take what I get and have to settle for her doing hj or te like in between.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

honeysuckle rose said:


> This question is like asking you how can you curb your drive and enthusiasm for sex? Truly a question without answer. We are who we are.


Yeah but the guy is making all sorts of effort to acquiece to her LD. It's like the HD spouse is always the one who is perceived as having the problem. The spouse expects all of her needs to be met but when it comes to sex, somehow that is different and not worth the best effort.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

Sex is the one thing that women know they can control in every facet.
If you continue to live with a LD, your only choices are to become LD, yourself, or, divorce her and find somebody more suitable for your needs.


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> What do LD people that are interested in increasing their sex drive do in order to increase their drive other than having more sex?


COMPROMISE This is how is started for my dh and me, (great sex while dating never any issues, early into marriage no issues) two kids 20 months apart, my drive went to the birds..... he who was major HD and me LD... few years ago... He compromised on the pestering, and I compromised on some of his requests, we took it a little at a time, first it was show more affection on my own, unprompted, I hadn't realized i wasn't showing the kind he wanted. I would give a hug and a kiss, but he wanted the more like when we were dating, to feel wanted (totally get it) so I did more... then we agreed to a reasonable frequency, this took a bit of discussion... also for me, I have a back injury so night isn't my best time, which was a problem with our schedules, so we worked out some special "lunch dates" I am more alert, less pain, meds are working, etc... At first they were just dates, conversation (HUGE need of a woman) and then more deeper kisses, etc... I wanted to make my husband happy. I wanted to meet him in the middle. I recognized his efforts and realized i needed to give in return. Now we have similar drives and actually sometimes mine is higher than his... don't know if it's because the kids are older and I have hit that "hormone 30s" or what.... but also, talking about sexual likes and dislikes helps, just having a conversation. Tell me the top 3 things you really like that I do... and then she does the same... and then don't forget to include, tell me the top things that you really don't like or that I could improve sexually.... (now for this conversation stay off of initiating, that always lead to a bad discussion, talk seriously about foreplay and sex itself)... 
Just my two cents from a formerly LD woman who stayed with the same man and we worked together to put the spark back in our marriage. DOnt know if you read the article I have been posting, but that really helped us a lot to understand outside of sex, the other aspects of our relationship that needed to be nurtured too, because even though the number 1 need of a man is sex, it doesn't even come on the top 5 list of a woman in a relationship.... Let me know if you want it. (And I have done my own little side study on my female friends they all agreed with the list). Sex is a byproduct of us feeling emotionally connected to our spouses, but part of getting that emotional connection from our spouses is fuffilling their number one need (men, sex) so it's a challenge, but it does require compromise!! Also reading how hormones play into the stages of a relationship help to understand that often LD labeled people are not LD at all... they just have been backed into a corner and made to feel LD because of the pressure. But once put into an outside context of a "relationship give and take and how we can get our needs filled that way as well" (And I don't mean by using it as a weapon either) it's a huge wakeup call.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> I have over the past number of years ( 10+ at least), given her space, not "pestered" her, refrained from sexual innuendo's, stopped "gropping", became less adventurous in bed ( she gave me a speech about every episode becoming a "sexual adventure" and she didn't like it), respected her wishes about not asking for sex in the morning and afternoon. ( night only ) and so on. It's gone so far as to me censoring my own sexual thoughts.


Working to stifle and subdue your natural sexual drive wasn't ever, ever going to inspire her to screw you more often. I have no idea why people ever think this line of action is going to produce results. All you did was make it easier for her to not have sex with you.

This is like you wanting your wife to cook for you more often, and in order to inspire her to cook for you, you decide to go on a bland diet, with no flavor. Why exactly would that inspire your wife to suddenly start cooking for you?


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## MWD (Jul 16, 2012)

hookares said:


> Sex is the one thing that women know they can control in every facet.
> If you continue to live with a LD, your only choices are to become LD, yourself, or, divorce her and find somebody more suitable for your needs.


Sex can be controlled by either partner. There are plenty of testament to that. The problem is that it shouldn't be a card that one or the other holds. Sex should not be a tool or a bargaining chip. It should be part of the connection that a couple shares together. 

-MWD


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Working to stifle and subdue your natural sexual drive wasn't ever, ever going to inspire her to screw you more often. I have no idea why people ever think this line of action is going to produce results. All you did was make it easier for her to not have sex with you.
> 
> This is like you wanting your wife to cook for you more often, and in order to inspire her to cook for you, you decide to go on a bland diet, with no flavor. Why exactly would that inspire your wife to suddenly start cooking for you?


I did not work to cool down my HD in an effort to have more sex or inspire her to have more sex with me. I did it to show a willingness to meet her half-way and respect what she had indicated as to what made her feel pressured all the time. What I see in her actions is that effort from me is not being reciprocated by her. There has been nothing to indicate that she is working to increase her drive. This is showing me that my needs don't matter to her and she is carrying an attitude of someone who is single. I can cook for myself. lol.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

livelaughlovenow said:


> COMPROMISE This is how is started for my dh and me, (great sex while dating never any issues, early into marriage no issues) two kids 20 months apart, my drive went to the birds..... he who was major HD and me LD... few years ago... He compromised on the pestering, and I compromised on some of his requests, we took it a little at a time, first it was show more affection on my own, unprompted, I hadn't realized i wasn't showing the kind he wanted. I would give a hug and a kiss, but he wanted the more like when we were dating, to feel wanted (totally get it) so I did more... then we agreed to a reasonable frequency, this took a bit of discussion... also for me, I have a back injury so night isn't my best time, which was a problem with our schedules, so we worked out some special "lunch dates" I am more alert, less pain, meds are working, etc... At first they were just dates, conversation (HUGE need of a woman) and then more deeper kisses, etc... I wanted to make my husband happy. I wanted to meet him in the middle. I recognized his efforts and realized i needed to give in return. Now we have similar drives and actually sometimes mine is higher than his... don't know if it's because the kids are older and I have hit that "hormone 30s" or what.... but also, talking about sexual likes and dislikes helps, just having a conversation. Tell me the top 3 things you really like that I do... and then she does the same... and then don't forget to include, tell me the top things that you really don't like or that I could improve sexually.... (now for this conversation stay off of initiating, that always lead to a bad discussion, talk seriously about foreplay and sex itself)...
> Just my two cents from a formerly LD woman who stayed with the same man and we worked together to put the spark back in our marriage. DOnt know if you read the article I have been posting, but that really helped us a lot to understand outside of sex, the other aspects of our relationship that needed to be nurtured too, because even though the number 1 need of a man is sex, it doesn't even come on the top 5 list of a woman in a relationship.... Let me know if you want it. (And I have done my own little side study on my female friends they all agreed with the list). Sex is a byproduct of us feeling emotionally connected to our spouses, but part of getting that emotional connection from our spouses is fuffilling their number one need (men, sex) so it's a challenge, but it does require compromise!! Also reading how hormones play into the stages of a relationship help to understand that often LD labeled people are not LD at all... they just have been backed into a corner and made to feel LD because of the pressure. But once put into an outside context of a "relationship give and take and how we can get our needs filled that way as well" (And I don't mean by using it as a weapon either) it's a huge wakeup call.


Thank you for such useful information and suggestions. I believe I have read that list as you had posted the link on another thread. If I am mistaken please feel free to post is here or send it to me.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

honeysuckle rose said:


> As a woman who is LD, I can tell you that I've tried herbal stimulants, creams, therapy, behavior modification. Some of it worked for a while. It probably would have continued to work and I would have got my groove back (like Stella) if I was still interested for my own benefit.
> 
> This question is like asking you how can you curb your drive and enthusiasm for sex? Truly a question without answer. We are who we are.
> 
> ...


I applaude you for your effort. I do not see that kind of commitment from my W at all. Good article as well. Thanks.


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## Anomnom (Jun 25, 2012)

I feel exactly the same way about my husband. There is no compromise from him at all. He has no drive so we rarely have sex and that suits him fine.

I think its incredibly selfish and it will inevitably lead to us seperating. Communication and compromise are the key to fixing this situation and without a willing partner there doesn't seem much hope.


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## DDC (Jul 16, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> I did not work to cool down my HD in an effort to have more sex or inspire her to have more sex with me. I did it to show a willingness to meet her half-way and respect what she had indicated as to what made her feel pressured all the time. What I see in her actions is that effort from me is not being reciprocated by her. There has been nothing to indicate that she is working to increase her drive. This is showing me that my needs don't matter to her and she is carrying an attitude of someone who is single. I can cook for myself. lol.


The brutal truth is she does not respect you as a man and does not take you seriously. You should have nipped this in the bud and told her that you have needs and if she's going to continue to make zero effort to meet them that you are going to find someone who can. Then, if she had not met your needs, you should have left her.


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## DDC (Jul 16, 2012)

hookares said:


> Sex is the one thing that women know they can control in every facet.


As a man, I could not disagree more with this comment. I've never been in a sustained relationship without mutually satisfying sex. A woman has never "controlled" sex for me. If she's unwilling to meet my needs (which I've explicitly expressed), I leave the relationship.



hookares said:


> If you continue to live with a LD, your only choices are to become LD, yourself, or, divorce her and find somebody more suitable for your needs.


Option #3 (which most people take) is to stay with your partner until the end of time complaining about how selfish they are and hoping by some miracle they will change. Good luck!

-OR-

Option #4 (if you're a man): Start acting like one, instead of being the passive, push-over wimp who she doesn't respect.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Nearly every LD woman can become a HD woman given the right circumstances. 

What is your relationship like?
Does she nag you?
Do you do your fair share?
Do you do too much?
Does she control other things in the relationship?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 7737 (Feb 10, 2011)

honeysuckle rose said:


> As a woman who is LD, I can tell you that I've tried herbal stimulants, creams, therapy, behavior modification. Some of it worked for a while. It probably would have continued to work and I would have got my groove back (like Stella) if I was still interested for my own benefit.
> 
> *This question is like asking you how can you curb your drive and enthusiasm for sex? Truly a question without answer. We are who we are. *
> Having more sex for some of us doesn't make us want it more - just the opposite.
> ...


Bravo Honeysuckle!! My wife is very LD (like once a month if I am lucky)...she simply isn't interested in sex, with me or anyone else. I get fed up with being told its me...that I don't give her the affection SHE wants, that I don't speak 'her' language of love etc etc. I am fluent in her languages etc!

She is like many women - simply not wired for sex.


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## MrVanilla (Apr 24, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> What do LD people that are interested in increasing their sex drive do in order to increase their drive other than having more sex?


To me, your question is a bit of an oxymoron. "LD" to me means _low sex drive_, which I define to mean a lack of interest. So you're kind of asking what a person who isn't interested might do to become more interested? =) 

In my own experience trying become more interested for my W whose drive is somewhat higher than my own... I haven't found an answer. I haven't found a shot from the Doctor, or pill you take, or a magic wand to wave that suddenly makes ones wants and desires suddenly increase. 

For instance: my W tells me that she really enjoys a little light bondage, and suggests that somehow we find a way to restrict her to hands in bed. So, okay... I find some stuff to that is restrictive but not difficult to slip out of and the next night I wrap her wrists up in this thing and ask her if it's okay and she says "Oh yes!" and then I ask her what to do next. She furrows her brow and says "Anything you want to do." That's when I got stuck... How was I supposed to explain that there isn't anything I was interested in doing to a tied up naked woman except... well... untying her? 

So, I dunno. People seem to have there own individual interests. How you 'create' interest or desire where there isn't any... is a mystery to me. If you find an answer, I'm desperate to hear it. =)


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

As DDC pointed out there are options.

I think that when an HD spouse decides it's time to move on, the shock to the LD spouse is tremendous and they wind up on one of the TAM forums here!

Unfortunately, more times than not, it usually involves an affair instead of a clean, honest break. HD spouses begin to feel unattractive to their mate and start to wonder what's wrong with them. Their self esteem starts to nose dive and all of a sudden, someone comes along, pays a little attention to them and it's downhill from there.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> I did not work to cool down my HD in an effort to have more sex or inspire her to have more sex with me. I did it to show a willingness to meet her half-way and respect what she had indicated as to what made her feel pressured all the time. What I see in her actions is that effort from me is not being reciprocated by her. There has been nothing to indicate that she is working to increase her drive. This is showing me that my needs don't matter to her and she is carrying an attitude of someone who is single. I can cook for myself. lol.


Semantics. We're saying the exact same thing. You stifled your drive in an effort to meet her halfway, which was suppose to inspire her to in turn meet you halfway, work on her drive, which would have resulted in more sex. Ultimately the impetus to stifle your drive was suppose to eventually lead you to more nookie. 

Your "meeting her halfway" only gave her exactly what she wanted. You off her back for sex. Removing the "pressure", as she categorizes it, wasn't EVER going to spark a reciprocated increase in sex under a less pressurized environment. All it was going to do is give her less hassle, and more incentive, to screw you over (vs screw you).

It's the same when an obese spouse asks their well intended spouse to stop "pressuring" them to lose weight and get healthy. The concerned spouse will often believe that if they take the pressure off the obese spouse, stop offering to work out with them, or encourage them to make better food choices, that'll spark them to make healthy choices on their own. After all the obese spouse claims that they'd be on track if it weren't for the so called "pressure" that the spouse is putting on them. However more often than not that won't do a damn thing but enable them, and help them feel more comfortable indulging in poor choices, but now with the added freedom of not having to hear the spouse's big mouth running off.

Your wife got _exactly_ what she wanted.


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## TeR (Jun 28, 2012)

hookares said:


> Sex is the one thing that women know they can control in every facet.


Wow!! Not sure how much _wrong-er_ you can be. If I was able to control the sex in our relationship...*I'd have f***ed him half years ago*! I'm the HD in our relationship and can appreciate what CanadianGuy is feeling. However drudging along thinking the SO with the LD has _control_ is certainly not going to help CanadianGuy or anyone else for that matter.



Toffer said:


> As DDC pointed out there are options.
> 
> I think that when an HD spouse decides it's time to move on, the shock to the LD spouse is tremendous and they wind up on one of the TAM forums here!
> 
> Unfortunately, more times than not, it usually involves an affair instead of a clean, honest break. HD spouses begin to feel unattractive to their mate and start to wonder what's wrong with them. Their self esteem starts to nose dive and all of a sudden, someone comes along, pays a little attention to them and it's downhill from there.


I think Toffer hit the nail right on the head. From personal & current experience...I feel like I'm nagging him for sex and intimacy. Rather than feel like a nag, I've turned to porn & masturbation. He didn't respond o my constant advances. He didn't last very long when he did _give in_. All of which I'm told not to mention for fear of damaging an ego & developing a complex :banghead: So I know have the complex having become a a closet pervert; hiding all my actions/thoughts from my husband so HE'S not hurt. :wtf:

I know find myself wondering what sex would be like with the guy walking down the street, up the street, across the street...I'm sizing up total strangers and picturing myself riding 'em.

I hope for my marriage's sake that Toffer is wrong (but I don't think so)...otherwise it's only a matter of time for us.

*CanadianGuy*...if a solution is found, please update us. I'll try anything and am not ready to throw in the towel yet. Good luck!


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Nearly every LD woman can become a HD woman given the right circumstances.
> 
> What is your relationship like?
> Does she nag you?
> ...


At the moment our relationship is on shaky ground as this and other issues are coming to a head. Yes, occasionally she nags. ie: last night i said in a jovial way while she was cooking dinner. "what are you making for supper, Tacos? " She said in a kind of snarky way " more that you're making" to which I replied that I had actually done all the dishes that day...I have cut back a lot on the things I do around here mainly because I was deprioritizing her needs without realizing it. I used to wash and vacuum her car every week, and other acts of service etc. By doing doing less it allowed me to let go of some of the resentment I was feeling. Maybe it was too much I don't know(?) To a certain extent she controls other things but we do talk about issues.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Semantics. We're saying the exact same thing. You stifled your drive in an effort to meet her halfway, which was suppose to inspire her to in turn meet you halfway, work on her drive, which would have resulted in more sex. Ultimately the impetus to stifle your drive was suppose to eventually lead you to more nookie.
> 
> Your "meeting her halfway" only gave her exactly what she wanted. You off her back for sex. Removing the "pressure", as she categorizes it, wasn't EVER going to spark a reciprocated increase in sex under a less pressurized environment. All it was going to do is give her less hassle, and more incentive, to screw you over (vs screw you).
> 
> ...


This is a good point. She did get exactly what she wanted. So in hindsight it was a mistake to go on as long as I had with the efforts I was making. I never did see an effort from her and perhaps when I noticed that I should have let her know and ceased all my efforts immediately which would have put us back at square one. lol.:scratchhead: I would suggest that I was coming from a place of "the relationship" ie: respecting her needs. She was coming from a place of what she wanted.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Toffer said:


> As DDC pointed out there are options.
> 
> I think that when an HD spouse decides it's time to move on, the shock to the LD spouse is tremendous and they wind up on one of the TAM forums here!
> 
> Unfortunately, more times than not, it usually involves an affair instead of a clean, honest break. HD spouses begin to feel unattractive to their mate and start to wonder what's wrong with them. Their self esteem starts to nose dive and all of a sudden, someone comes along, pays a little attention to them and it's downhill from there.


I won't have an affair either EA or PA as that is dishonorable. I would like to think that if I left this marriage it would be with self respect and honor. I will add that sometimes I feel that sex is an aspect of marriage that is important but is it really worth ending a relationship over. What would be worth ending the relationship over is a lack of commitment and effort to make things better. This would apply to all aspects of the relationship equally. If your partner has checked out, they've check out. Time to move on. As I am also a father it behoves me to act in a manner that is an example. I do still continue to do things around the house to set that example. Albiet less than usual, I have a problem with doing less as I feel I need to set a good example for my children. ie "Dad was a lazy bas#ard so Mom divorced him" . lol. There is a double edged sword here at play. I can't at this point or perhaps ever say to my kids that mom just ain't cutting it in the sex dept so I divorced her.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

7737 said:


> Bravo Honeysuckle!! My wife is very LD (like once a month if I am lucky)...she simply isn't interested in sex, with me or anyone else. I get fed up with being told its me...that I don't give her the affection SHE wants, that I don't speak 'her' language of love etc etc. I am fluent in her languages etc!
> 
> She is like many women - simply not wired for sex.


7737, in your situation..... your posts have read like duty sex to maintain the vows. 
You have admitted in the past it has nothing to do with LOVE, you just want to get laid, you plan on leaving her when the kids are old enough, and maybe she feels the same way. 

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, that's your situation. Not every spouse is capable of doing duty sex (And you had an affair when she wasn't giving as much as you needed) but maybe your wife puts a different value on sex than you do. It doesn't matter what you say or do... it's not going to work if she values sex as intimacy, and you do not. 

Some women need to know they are not being used. Some women need to know their husbands value them as a person. Some women are LD simply because they feel used and it's uncomfortable to be intimate with someone they resent.

A LOT of times... the sex problem is outside of the bedroom.
If it's not medical, there is a reason. The answer depends on what is wrong. Only you can find out what the reason is. And NO, it might not be YOU. She might have issues she has not dealt with. 

I'm a woman, I was HD. And now I'm LD \ zero drive. For anyone. I was HD for all of my adult life. I'm not in a place where I can comfortably "attach" to a man, and so I'm not interested in sex, at all. Doesn't matter what is said to me, or if the dishes get done, without being able to be emotional.... there is no drive. It just comes across as doing things to get "something" that I don't want to give. That's what hookers are for. 

Some women are just like that. 
If I am in LOVE with a man... I'm all about sex, making him happy is my priority. It makes me happy.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

TeR said:


> Wow!! Not sure how much _wrong-er_ you can be. If I was able to control the sex in our relationship...*I'd have f***ed him half years ago*! I'm the HD in our relationship and can appreciate what CanadianGuy is feeling. However drudging along thinking the SO with the LD has _control_ is certainly not going to help CanadianGuy or anyone else for that matter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is exactly why I began this thread. To get feedback from LD people to see if anything worked for them. Exercise, diet, supplements, reading more erotica etc. I know what worked for me to lower my HD. When you want to become stronger in areas of your life that are weak and not serving you well then it's a good idea to work on them. It's fine to say I'm a weakling and good with it but if your not fine with it then hit the gym and pump some iron and do other things to get ripped.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> I won't have an affair either EA or PA as that is dishonorable. I would like to think that if I left this marriage it would be with self respect and honor. I will add that sometimes I feel that sex is an aspect of marriage that is important but is it really worth ending a relationship over. What would be worth ending the relationship over is a lack of commitment and effort to make things better. This would apply to all aspects of the relationship equally. If your partner has checked out, they've check out. Time to move on. As I am also a father it behoves me to act in a manner that is an example. I do still continue to do things around the house to set that example. Albiet less than usual, I have a problem with doing less as I feel I need to set a good example for my children. ie "Dad was a lazy bas#ard so Mom divorced him" . lol. There is a double edged sword here at play. I can't at this point or perhaps ever say to my kids that mom just ain't cutting it in the sex dept so I divorced her.



But I would suggest that the reasons this sexual aspect is so important is because it's indicative of other problems in the marriage. This isn't a situation where you had a strong, healthy marriage, and blooming sex life, and then one of you got into an accident that made having sex impossible. In that scenario the sexual aspect was eliminated by no fault, or cause, of the people involved, and didn't cease because of unhealthiness going on in one or both of you.

The fact that you're on here, the fact that your wife is responding to you in this way, the fact that the sex is in the toilet, is a sign post to other issues. If you ended up divorced it certainly would not be from a lack of sex. It would be from the issues that spawned the deterioration of your sex life.

And while it's very important to set a good standard for your kids that housework needs to be accomplished, it doesn't help them if you and your wife end up so unhappy that you pass down a cold, distant, detached version of marriage to them.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> When you want to become stronger in areas of your life that are weak and not serving you well then it's a good idea to work on them. It's fine to say I'm a weakling and good with it but if your not fine with it then hit the gym and pump some iron and do other things to get ripped.


This is totally unrelated to this line of discussion, but thanks for these words. They are actually _exactly _what I needed to hear today.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Nearly every LD woman can become a HD woman given the right circumstances.


After reading this thread... with the honesty within, I really think this thought can be shot in the heart >>>

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/52388-musings-ld-perspective.html

.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

jaquen said:


> But I would suggest that the reasons this sexual aspect is so important is because it's indicative of other problems in the marriage. This isn't a situation where you had a strong, healthy marriage, and blooming sex life, and then one of you got into an accident that made having sex impossible. In that scenario the sexual aspect was eliminated by no fault, or cause, of the people involved, and didn't cease because of unhealthiness going on in one or both of you.
> 
> The fact that you're on here, the fact that your wife is responding to you in this way, the fact that the sex is in the toilet, is a sign post to other issues. If you ended up divorced it certainly would not be from a lack of sex. It would be from the issues that spawned the deterioration of your sex life.
> 
> And while it's very important to set a good standard for your kids that housework needs to be accomplished, it doesn't help them if you and your wife end up so unhappy that you pass down a cold, distant, detached version of marriage to them.


Exactly, sex can be the canary in the coal mine. I pointed to my own behavior as being resentful and that may have begun or contributed to the downward spiral. I feel the issues stack up and many would rather start over with someone else than start again with the same spouse. Like I mentioned before it's got a lot to do with her "efforts" in the sex dept. I'm still waiting to hear from LD people and what they did to increase or at least work on increasing their sex drives.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

jaquen said:


> This is totally unrelated to this line of discussion, but thanks for these words. They are actually _exactly _what I needed to hear today.


Your welcome


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

CanadianGuy said:


> As an HD person I can say that I have done a lot of re-thinking/feeling in order to accomodate my spouses LD.
> 
> I have over the past number of years ( 10+ at least), given her space, not "pestered" her, refrained from sexual innuendo's, stopped "gropping", became less adventurous in bed ( she gave me a speech about every episode becoming a "sexual adventure" and she didn't like it), respected her wishes about not asking for sex in the morning and afternoon. ( night only ) and so on.


I apologize for what you and so many men go through. I'm not apologizing for womankind. I'm apologizing for it being this way, not that I had anything to do with the way it is of course. I don't understand it honestly. I don't understand why men and women are so very different emotionally and sexually. It seems so unfair, and I'm afraid I won't have any answers as to why until I meet my maker who created us (hope you don't mind the religious insert there). 

In the meantime, I have to disagree with almost every assertion and assessment that has been made about women in this thread (and all the others like it) by you and others. For starters, it isn't that she does not care about you or your sexual needs. One thing I hate - absolutely abhor - is the suggestion and the mindset that women should just do it. That is what you and others think and feel, but it isn't nearly so simple if for no other reason than she is as much entitled to be the way the she is as you are. And, as someone else pointed out, we are the way we are - men and women both. Unfortunately, there exists this disparity.

Oftentimes, it's just the way the woman is, perhaps your woman in this case. Oftentimes, there are reasons she's that way you are not aware of. For example, women are easily put off from sex by the man in their life. Easily put off by the way he acts over sex and the way he treats her. You mention all these things you ceased doing, but you don't know what doing those things in the first place did to her mentally and emotionally. She got turned off because she began to feel objectified. It gets to the point where a woman no longer feels wanted or appreciated. Her man just makes her feel convenient and if you think about.....if you and others are truly honest about it.....that's what she is to you - convenience, available, easy access, close proximity, yours for the asking because you're married.

So, she doesn't feel like you want HER. She feels like you just want sex, and she doesn't like that feeling. No woman likes feeling used or like a piece of furniture, but that is how a lot of men, probably most men, end up making their wife feel. Most women don't like the groping. Most women don't like the constant pressure. Most women don't like the pestering. Most women don't like that every hug or kiss has to turn into sex. A hug and kiss mean more to us than men using it as foreplay every time. 

That you stopped doing these things didn't reverse the feelings that grew on her, began to disgust her, and made her feel objectified because they were already ingrained. Because you placed so much value on sex, her sense of value to you was compromised because her value is directly related to her identity. That is all she has because you can get sex from any woman that exists. Who she is is what she needs to matter and be important to you, but you made it clear that doesn't matter any more because now she's just convenient.

I'm not trying to say you are at fault although I recognize it sounds that way. I'm only telling you how it goes for women. Being who you are and being the way you are is natural for you. It is also natural for your wife to be turned off by it. Therefore, "just do it" cannot work and is entirely disrespectful. My first husband was that way. I hated sex with him and avoided it every way I could come up with. I hated that he felt entitled. I hated that he groped me all the time. I hated that he couldn't look at me in bra and panties without trying to jump me. I hated that he couldn't simply hug me and say "I love you" and let that be that. I hated that seemingly the meer fact that I breathed made him horny. None of that had anything to do with me. It just happened to be that I was the one there. 

There were no such feelings in subsequent relationships, including my current marriage, because none other made me feel that way. Love making has always been much more satisfying but long ceased to be with him. It wasn't that I didn't care about his needs. It was that I hated feeling objectified. How he made me feel took precedence over everything, including how I felt about him. I wanted to leave him, and I did. It reached the point that had he stopped doing those things and behaving that way would not have made any difference since I'd already lost respect for him because he didn't respect me.

There are lots and lots of other reasons women's libido may wane or disappear, but I thought it important and relevant to address this particular aspect. Like I said, I think it's unfair women are the way we are in response to men being the way they are. The only possible solution I can think of is for there to be mandatory counseling for couples before marriage so each are taught and made to understand these differences between the sexes. I think that would solve a lot of problems that inevitably arise. Alas, since that isn't possible, I guess there is nothing that can be done by way of prevention. Again, it is very unfair to each gender, and I wish I had solutions to suggest. I'm sure one solution is to leave your wife and live the sexual life that you want. But, make sure not to get married again because the likelihood is you'll end up in the same boat eventually......for some reason or another. 

One thing you can try is telling her how much she means to you. Since you and she are not having sex and you're not pressuring her for sex, your words might mean more to her than you trying to get sex. Of course, you have to mean the words. If you've been neglecting her, stopped doing things for her, walking around with an attitude, chip on your shoulder, or lashing out angrily over every little nothing because she doesn't give you sex, then your words won't mean any more than your behaviors have already been saying.

Leaving will do one of two things: 1) She will become desperate to save the marriage, and that almost always increases people's libido. You probably won't be able to keep up with her because the adrenaline and hormones will drive her to want you and hope like he11 that you still want her. Or, 2) Her feelings will be confirmed that she holds no value to you than being convenient for sex, for which you are leaving her to get elsewhere.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

River1977 said:


> I apologize for what you and so many men go through. I'm not apologizing for womankind. I'm apologizing for it being this way, not that I had anything to do with the way it is of course. I don't understand it honestly. I don't understand why men and women are so very different emotionally and sexually. It seems so unfair, and I'm afraid I won't have any answers as to why until I meet my maker who created us (hope you don't mind the religious insert there).
> 
> In the meantime, I have to disagree with almost every assertion and assessment that has been made about women in this thread (and all the others like it) by you and others. For starters, it isn't that she does not care about you or your sexual needs. One thing I hate - absolutely abhor - is the suggestion and the mindset that women should just do it. That is what you and others think and feel, but it isn't nearly so simple if for no other reason than she is as much entitled to be the way the she is as you are. And, as someone else pointed out, we are the way we are - men and women both. Unfortunately, there exists this disparity.
> 
> ...


I'm not a fan of "just do it" either. I worked on those thing so she would not feel objectified as she had indicated that to me. I ceased doing those acts of service etc about a year ago. I had begun the other program at least 8 years ago. I can appreciate every thing you are saying. It still doesn't answer the question of why she was not trying to increase her drive when I was working on lower mine. If your saying that she couldn't care less about working on it because she wasn't attracted to me for the reasons you stated above she's had eight years to come around and the frequency and enthusiasm from her has become less and less. I even stopped initiating. I do tell her what she means to me. Not for sex but for who she really is. But is it really up to me all the time to rev her engine so to speak. Why can she not work on reving her own engine once and awhile? What I really want to know - Have any LD people found a way or are working on increasing their drive?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

CanadianGuy said:


> Have any LD people found a way or are working on increasing their drive?


She has to have an "enlightenment" within herself...to how this is hurting you...and deeply care to change...for the better of the marriage.... look at the thread I mentioned in my last post..

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/52388-musings-ld-perspective.html

Many here married to LD women for years on there are appreciative of her explaining all of this & the lengths she is going to meet her husband...it has gotten "better" for them. 

You sound very committed...and very willing to work with your wife, a man of great patience, so this thread might shed some light for you.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

River1977 said:


> I apologize for what you and so many men go through. I'm not apologizing for womankind. I'm apologizing for it being this way, not that I had anything to do with the way it is of course. I don't understand it honestly. I don't understand why men and women are so very different emotionally and sexually. It seems so unfair, and I'm afraid I won't have any answers as to why until I meet my maker who created us (hope you don't mind the religious insert there).
> 
> In the meantime, I have to disagree with almost every assertion and assessment that has been made about women in this thread (and all the others like it) by you and others. For starters, it isn't that she does not care about you or your sexual needs. One thing I hate - absolutely abhor - is the suggestion and the mindset that women should just do it. That is what you and others think and feel, but it isn't nearly so simple if for no other reason than she is as much entitled to be the way the she is as you are. And, as someone else pointed out, we are the way we are - men and women both. Unfortunately, there exists this disparity.
> 
> ...



If this is apparently how "most women" think, act, and feel, I have to thank you for outlining this in all it's terrible glory.

I have never, in my entire life, been more grateful that my love isn't like "most women" than I am in this very moment.

My God.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

Great thread. I've learned so much from reading these forums. As a LD spouse, it's nice to hear that I'm not alone. It's also been enlightening to hear from HD spouses. I can see that continued denial slices deep. 

I don't think I'll ever be HD (no matter what I try). However, I do have a different attitude (still evolving) toward sex. For a LD person, I think that attitude is key. I see sex with my husband as something that can bring us closer--it binds us in a way that nothing else can. It is also something that he needs physically. This is where we differ. I don't physically crave sex. Maybe this is because I have climaxing issues. I honestly don't know. At the same time, I can still enthusiastically participate in sex because I can see how it brings us together. Adapting this attitude is pretty much how I've opened myself to having sex with my husband more often.

From a LD perspective, I can also tell you what is a turn-off. The "just do it" philosophy causes the resentment to start creeping in (for this LD spouse at least). It is basically like telling someone to "get over yourself, " and "your feelings don't matter." It also shows that you do not truly understand the LD perspective.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

As a high driver myself who LOVES to be groped & my husband all over me... if my husband quit doing that, I would get seriously issed:!! I even told him to step it up not too long ago! 

I totally get the "just do it" philosophy is disgusting -how that could even be entertained to be remotely satifying to anyone is beyond me... that is all just "Pity" ~ "Burdensome" sex in my opinion, and a HUGE turn off for the higher drive spouse. 

I went through a time where I questioned my husbands desire for me, I was a freaking BASKETCASE, I cried so many tears...during that time...thankfully - it was just all in my head cause he couldn't keep up with me...sometimes us women overthink (Guilty!!) But I totally understand their HIGH frustration, even their outright anger with this issue. And if they express this.. resentment grows on the other side , it is a LOSE freaking LOSE. 

I think Mismatched Libidos is one of the most sour suffering hurtful things that can be thrown into a marraige, if the mismatch is too much of a divide. 

I had one poster tell me his story through a pm - what he deals with every day... noone sees his pain, he hides it to EVERYONE, others think they have a happy marriage .... he stays for the kids... but it is an unrelenting private hell, like a prison. Passionless. I feel so bad for some of these high drive spouses, you will just have to forgive my posts on here. Those kids are surely loved for the sacrifice some go through in this life. 

I am far too sensitive to deal with this sort of rejection , it riles me up just reading about it - and far too impatient on the other end -when I am "feeling" like that, resentment would climb like a plague.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Hi CD -

I have not read the other replies & am responding to your OP.

You asked to hear from LD people & I am one.

I just joined TAM today & you can find my initial post in this forum.

The one thing that jumped out at me from your post is your wife's not liking every sexual encounter to be (or feel that it is) a "sexual adventure."

She is spot on as an LD person.

I will only speak for myself. As an LD, I PREFER a "wham-bam-thank-you maam" to "Pee Wee's Big Adventure."

This is not to say I won't have an "adventure" sometimes but if every single sexual encounter/act feels like an African safari ride then I NEVER want to engage.

If an LD & an HD are in a relationship, the answer will always be compromise.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> As a high driver myself who LOVES to be groped & my husband all over me... if my husband quit doing that, I would get seriously issed:!! I even told him to step it up not too long ago!
> 
> I totally get the "just do it" philosophy is disgusting -how that could even be entertained to be remotely satifying to anyone is beyond me... that is all just "Pity" ~ "Burdensome" sex in my opinion, and a HUGE turn off for the higher drive spouse.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying. I do wonder, however, about the solution. What do you do when one partner simply does not physically crave sex? Is it not satisfying enough for the HD partner if the LD partner still enthusiastically has sex because they know it is important and that it strengthens the marriage?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

momtwo4 said:


> I understand what you are saying. I do wonder, however, about the solution. What do you do when one partner simply does not physically crave sex? Is it not satisfying enough for the HD partner if the LD partner still enthusiastically has sex because they know it is important and that it strengthens the marriage?


 I think every one of us is "high maintenance" in some area or another, right? I would say I am high maintenance in this area of "*desire*" - I simply need it - I need his flirting, I need to feel his want of me, his passion. If that was taken and ripped from my marriage, I would wither, grow bored, lonely, MAD, frustrated, I'd be one of those women who are real bi***y & guys look at her and say ...."damn, she needs Laid!"....or something to that effect. I know what keeps me ticking...and emotionally fullfilled. 

Just being honest, like everyone else on here. Probably even makes me look bad...but it is what it is. I should likely stay out of these threads though....it ain't helping anyone, but I do have a book suggestion (below)...that helped ME understand my husband better when we were struggling with our Mismatch. (I wanted it 3 times a day) that he could not handle in his 40's!! And yeah I had mercy on him, so we went at it once a day. 

I just understand where they are coming from...honest to God I do.... I had PHYSICAL symptoms in my body to point to a TESTOSTEONE increase- even down to the underarms being foul smelling -like our boys in puberty (didn't matter how much I washed them-YIKES!).... my body temp was hot, I needed ZERO forplay for 8 straight months, ready to go... it affected my mind, my emotions, I had an excess of energy, hardly needed any sleep and I became aggressive - more confident and a sexual wild woman, flirting is all I wanted to do... it was kinda nuts accually. For the 1st time in my life, I accually felt I could separate sex (the act) from the emotional --this kinda scared me. So even our hormones can mess with our minds ....and PORN, I went nuts for it, so we rented it. My Husband was a GEM throughout all of this, and he has lower Test levels, I sent him to the DOc when he couldn't keep up! 

Had I NOT had this huge sky scraping sex drive increase, I may not understand the depths of how this FEELS (for many men...and us Cougar women).. because before that time, I was the Lower drive, or so he thought, how we missed each other is the dumbest story on TAM...one for the books. I was Repressed... he was too Passive....we didn't talk about sex. Wasted years, I was accually never lower drive in reality. 

Excuse all of that .....more importantly...this Book suggestion...




> When Your Sex Drives Don't Match: Discover Your Libido Types to Create a Mutually Satisfying Sex Life
> 
> There are 10 libido types:
> 
> ...


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I think every one of us is "high maintenance" in some area or another, right? I would say I am high maintenance in this area of "*desire*" - I simply need it - I need his flirting, I need to feel his want of me, his passion. If that was taken and ripped from my marriage, I would wither, grow bored, lonely, MAD, frustrated, I'd be one of those women who are real bi***y & guys look at her and say ...."damn, she needs Laid!"....or something to that effect. I know what keeps me ticking...and emotionally fullfilled.
> 
> Just being honest, like everyone else on here. Probably even makes me look bad...but it is what it is. I should likely stay out of these threads though....it ain't helping anyone, but I do have a book suggestion (below)...that helped ME understand my husband better when we were struggling with our Mismatch. (I wanted it 3 times a day) that he could not handle in his 40's!! And yeah I had mercy on him, so we went at it once a day.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the book suggestion!! I don't think you should stay out of these forums. It really is helpful to hear your experiences and perspectives.


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## keeper63 (Mar 22, 2012)

CG - I would suggest that you and your wife seek marriage counseling, preferably from a therapist who has credentials in sex therapy.

If she refuses to go, that should tell you something right there. In that case, you should seek individual counseling, as the dysfunction of your marriage has likely created some significant resentment issues that you will need to work through.

At the same time, you should begin to work on yourself, get in better shape, buy some new clothes, find new interests and friends, and tell yourself that these issues with your wife don't don't mean that you are any less of a decent, desirable man. Think of it as preparation for your leaving the relationship, and moving on with your life.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *momtwo4 said *: Thanks for the book suggestion!! I don't think you should stay out of these forums. It really is helpful to hear your experiences and perspectives.


 You are being awfully generous to me Momtwo4, but I thank you for that . 




> I understand what you are saying. I do wonder, however, about the solution. What do you do when one partner simply does not physically crave sex? Is it not satisfying enough for the HD partner if the LD partner still enthusiastically has sex because they know it is important and that it strengthens the marriage?


I don't think I even answered this! Well with our men, they can't fake it.... If the desire to engage is not there, even some Viagra won't get that snake to RISE ! So how very true, showing an "attitude" of







and a willingness to see where the touching takes us......how utterly important it IS. 

I did a thread on your very question ....as the subject IS so dear to my heart.....it was born out of one of our many little arguments where I was questioning his DESIRE for me again... I might as well have beat him over the head with that -during those 8 months when I couldn't get enough. 

It gave me this little gem of an analogy out of something he said to me. My husband was more gracious here than MOST could even imagine...as he told me he didn't even want me to use toys, but to use him ---even after I gave the man some performance pressure. I am sure a part of his beautiful attitude is because he once felt I didn't desire him & he would never do that to me. (It helps to be on both sides of this feeling - then we truly "do" get it). 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-ma...allowing-our-partner-turn-us-love-making.html


My husband handled me very well... but for a time, I really wanted more "aggression" out of him - this craving for me was unrelenting (some of my 1st threads here, thankfully this died down)....

What gave me alot of Peace & a better understanding of HIM.... was that book suggestion I listed, we learned I am an *Erotic* (gotta have some SPICE & excitement)/ *Dependent* Libido type (I need sex)....

...and He is a *Sensual *(all about the emotional) / *Receptive* Libido type (enjoys sex & happy to go along at anothers leading)... at least we FIT well...which gave me comfort. Receptives generally work well with ALL types, and well, us Erotics are the hardest ones to Please....That's me!

If his Libido type was an "*Disinterested*"....it would have wrecked our marraige. Seriously.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I don't consider myself LD, but if I think about it, the only time I _physically _crave sex is during ovulation (biology rules). I _have _sex a lot more than that, but that's because there are a lot of other factors that come into play that make me want to have sex (not need or crave, but want or choose).

- Emotional intimacy. Both my partner and I derive emotional closeness from sex. I feel that he is present emotionally during sex, and isn't just using me to get off.

- Physical pleasure. My partner is a wonderful lover who cares a LOT about my orgasms and turning me on, both physically and mentally. Foreplay starts long, long before any clothes are taken off. It's _fun_ for me, not frustrating. If I weren't having orgasms and if sex weren't fun for me, I'd be more reluctant to do it. It would indeed become a one-sided chore.

- Affection. We both have a high need for affection, so he is as free with hugs and kisses and holding hands and touches and cuddling as I am. It's not just a pre-cursor to sex - it's part of our daily lives and maintains that emotional closeness which I need in order to feel emotional intimacy during sex.

- Pleasing. I truly care about him as a person and I care about his happiness, so I want to please him. And he does that same. Even when I'm not in the mood for sex, I'm at least open to being turned on through foreplay because I want to please him. It goes both ways, though. He does things to please me because he cares about me as a person and about my happiness (he's an "acts of service" love language person). If he were not into pleasing me outside the bedroom, I would probably be a lot less into pleasing him sexually when I'm not already in the mood for sex.

- No buried resentments. We're in a good place in our relationship, so there aren't unresolved issues or resentments or anger between us. 

- No feeling of obligation. Stress, headaches, a tough morning at work ahead, menstruation, exhaustion...life happens, and he never makes me feel like he expects me to always have sex when he wants it. He's not critical or pushy or pouty or angry or sullen about it. That makes me want to make it up to him later.

- Compatibility. We connect on other levels in our relationship - everything from debating politics to our interest in real estate to where we like to vacation to our views on caring for aging parents. We disagree on a lot of things as well - his life would not be complete with a lot of sporty activities and physics/cosmos/universe, whereas I'm much more of a concerts, art museums, gardening and fiction person. But we can respect each other's differences and see how those differences add something to each other's lives. If we didn't connect intellectually and values-wise outside the bedroom, we wouldn't connect during sex, either.

- Respect. We never lose sight of the fact that we were not born and raised to be each other's perfect match and that we are instead _choosing _to make a go of it together. That helps minimize expectations that the other person is "supposed to be and do what I want". 

All of these things flow in a perpetual loop and are dependent on each other. I know that without a working balance, I would have far less interest in sex. I also know that if we have far less sex than we're having, it would impact all those other dependencies and knock those off-balance. 

Sex is not an isolated activity based on drive alone. For me.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> As a high driver myself who LOVES to be groped & my husband all over me... if my husband quit doing that, I would get seriously issed:!! I even told him to step it up not too long ago!
> 
> I totally get the "just do it" philosophy is disgusting -how that could even be entertained to be remotely satifying to anyone is beyond me... that is all just "Pity" ~ "Burdensome" sex in my opinion, and a HUGE turn off for the higher drive spouse.
> 
> ...


I hate to say this, but this board has helped me understand LD people even better. And that understanding has not helped lead to a greater respect in general. I almost always see the HD person as an unwitting victim of the LD person, because the bottom line is that the LD person almost always gets what they want; hardly any sex in the relationship.

The only perspective I appreciate comes from LD people who are making an effort to at least meet their mates half way, and increase the quantity and _quality _of sex.

TAM has convinced me that people who know going in that they're LD need to marry like driven people, and the same with HD. Of course drives don't match up perfectly, and one person will likely always want it more than another. But I'm flabbergasted at the amount of people who are paired up whose drives aren't even in the same galaxy.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

From reading all of the replies and comments on this thread I can say I have gained insight and understanding into both LD and HD persons. It sounds difficult for an LD person to want to increase their drive because if the desire to have sex isn't there the last thing they would want to do would be to think about it. Coming from an HD perspective I can say that it has not been easy directing those sexual energies in a way that is respectful of my own feelings and my spouses. As I am learning it can be done without resentment. 

In a relationship with a LD and HD persons it would seem so far that the HD is the one initially suffering and in turn creates suffering for their partner. If in our hearts we truly wish to do things that make our spouse happy then a compromise has to be taken seriously ( albiet - with an attitude towards "fun" ) Both partners have to show in their actions a willingness to change for the better of the "relationship" rather than the individual. I would add that an HD spouse has no choice in accepting less sex,passion, intimacy, desire etc, from their LD partners because if the LD person doesn't "feel" like having sex it is most likely not going to happen. And why should it if the LD doesn't feel like it? This is the critical part, the HD's behavior upon rejection (s) and the LD behavior/reaction to the "constant pressure" ( LD's words) to have sex. So really the HD needs to work on toning it down but at the same time the LD needs to work on kicking it up. Both are personal journeys for the better of the relationship. 

What is really necessary is "action" from both parties. Working towards understanding and balance in the relationship. Partners contribute equally to the difficulties and so they will share equally in it's rewards. We grow together to a new place of harmony, happiness, understanding and Love for each other.

If you HD spouses aren't toning it down, then start without resentment. If you LD spouses are not working on kicking it up, then start without resentment. What can you do today for yourself in an effort that reflects your commitment to the relationship? How can you bring your efforts together to create a better relationship?


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I hate to say this, but this board has helped me understand LD people even better. And that understanding has not helped lead to a greater respect in general. I almost always see the HD person as an unwitting victim of the LD person, because the bottom line is that the LD person almost always gets what they want; hardly any sex in the relationship.
> 
> The only perspective I appreciate comes from LD people who are making an effort to at least meet their mates half way, and increase the quantity and _quality _of sex.
> 
> TAM has convinced me that people who know going in that they're LD need to marry like driven people, and the same with HD. Of course drives don't match up perfectly, and one person will likely always want it more than another. But I'm flabbergasted at the amount of people who are paired up whose drives aren't even in the same galaxy.


You know what I think is even more important than matched sexual drives in a marriage? Respect and commitment. Because when both of these ingredients are there you are not going to neglect your spouse's needs.

I do not neglect my husband's sexual needs because I love him, respect him, and I DESIRE to make him happy. I'm committed to my marriage and to our relationship. 

My husband also respects me A LOT. He never makes me feel like sex is something he has a right to or that he is entitled to. He never expects me to "just do it" when I'm really not in the mood. He values my happiness and my well-being. Honestly, this is one of the reasons I love him so much, and I want to make him happy. 

We respect each other, we trust each other, and we value the commitment we made to each other. We haven't always seen eye-to-eye sexually, but we've been married eight years. We are committed to making our sex life "work" for us, even if it isn't perfect.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

momtwo4 said:


> You know what I think is even more important than matched sexual drives in a marriage? Respect and commitment. Because when both of these ingredients are there you are not going to neglect your spouse's needs.
> 
> I do not neglect my husband's sexual needs because I love him, respect him, and I DESIRE to make him happy. I'm committed to my marriage and to our relationship.
> 
> ...


You said it so much better than I did.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> You are being awfully generous to me Momtwo4, but I thank you for that .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love that analogy! Thank you. That's pretty much what I am: A manual transmission. I'll have this share that with my husband. I think he could relate (and appreciate) the analogy.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> From reading all of the replies and comments on this thread I can say I have gained insight and understanding into both LD and HD persons. It sounds difficult for an LD person to want to increase their drive because if the desire to have sex isn't there the last thing they would want to do would be to think about it. Coming from an HD perspective I can say that it has not been easy directing those sexual energies in a way that is respectful of my own feelings and my spouses. As I am learning it can be done without resentment.
> 
> In a relationship with a LD and HD persons it would seem so far that the HD is the one initially suffering and in turn creates suffering for their partner. If in our hearts we truly wish to do things that make our spouse happy then a compromise has to be taken seriously ( albiet - with an attitude towards "fun" ) Both partners have to show in their actions a willingness to change for the better of the "relationship" rather than the individual. I would add that an HD spouse has no choice in accepting less sex,passion, intimacy, desire etc, from their LD partners because if the LD person doesn't "feel" like having sex it is most likely not going to happen. And why should it if the LD doesn't feel like it? This is the critical part, the HD's behavior upon rejection (s) and the LD behavior/reaction to the "constant pressure" ( LD's words) to have sex. So really the HD needs to work on toning it down but at the same time the LD needs to work on kicking it up. Both are personal journeys for the better of the relationship.
> 
> ...


Actually, I think you said it pretty well yourself.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I hate to say this, but this board has helped me understand LD people even better. And that understanding has not helped lead to a greater respect in general. I almost always see the HD person as an unwitting victim of the LD person, because the bottom line is that the LD person almost always gets what they want; hardly any sex in the relationship.
> 
> The only perspective I appreciate comes from LD people who are making an effort to at least meet their mates half way, and increase the quantity and _quality _of sex.
> 
> TAM has convinced me that people who know going in that they're LD need to marry like driven people, and the same with HD. Of course drives don't match up perfectly, and one person will likely always want it more than another. But I'm flabbergasted at the amount of people who are paired up whose drives aren't even in the same galaxy.



It saddens me that you have a general disrespect for LD people but I do see you appreciate the efforts that some make.

We are born this way.

It may be difficult for you to understand & I respect that.

After many years of frustration, IMHO, sexual compatibility is VERY important in an LTR/Marriage & for me now, is a deal breaker.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

keeper63 said:


> CG - I would suggest that you and your wife seek marriage counseling, preferably from a therapist who has credentials in sex therapy.
> 
> If she refuses to go, that should tell you something right there. In that case, you should seek individual counseling, as the dysfunction of your marriage has likely created some significant resentment issues that you will need to work through.
> 
> At the same time, you should begin to work on yourself, get in better shape, buy some new clothes, find new interests and friends, and tell yourself that these issues with your wife don't don't mean that you are any less of a decent, desirable man. Think of it as preparation for your leaving the relationship, and moving on with your life.


Thank you for your recommendations. We are going to go to MC as there is other issues. I am 6'2" and 185, working on me all the time. I am decent, desirable and married. lol.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Emerald said:


> It saddens me that you have a general disrespect for LD people but I do see you appreciate the efforts that some make.
> 
> We are born this way.
> 
> ...


I have a disrespect for LD people who:

A. Marry their HD partners knowing full well that they aren't willing, or capable, of remotely fulfilling their desires.

B. Are perfectly content to allow their HD patterns to languish in the wind, year after year, without the sex they crave, and without putting forth serious effort to meet them halfway.

If you go into a marriage LD, and you've either lied about it, or put out more before the marriage to give the impression that you're HD, that's egregious and not worthy of respect.

Now if an HD person goes into a marriage knowing full well that their partner is LD? Well they signed up for it, and they should deal with the consequences.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

For most of the marriage this has been where my wife has met me way more than half way. We have had some slow spots - in the last few years but she is committed.


QUOTE=jaquen;957378]I have a disrespect for LD people who:

A. Marry their HD partners knowing full well that they aren't willing, or capable, of remotely fulfilling their desires.

B. Are perfectly content to allow their HD patterns to languish in the wind, year after year, without the sex they crave, and without putting forth serious effort to meet them halfway.

If you go into a marriage LD, and you've either lied about it, or put out more before the marriage to give the impression that you're HD, that's egregious and not worthy of respect.

Now if an HD person goes into a marriage knowing full well that their partner is LD? Well they signed up for it, and they should deal with the consequences.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OhhShiney (Apr 8, 2011)

honeysuckle rose said:


> This question is like asking you how can you curb your drive and enthusiasm for sex? Truly a question without answer. We are who we are.
> 
> Having more sex for some of us doesn't make us want it more - just the opposite.


My wife is definitely one whose sex drive goes DOWN for a while after having an orgasm. Almost as if she "got that over with."

I find myself INCREASING my desire with more frequent sex. Not necessarily able to have an orgasm every day now that I'm of a certain age, but I certainly want to have more contact the more contact I have. While having an orgasm does satisfy a certain itch that can't be scratched any other way, making love does NOT mean that I "got that over with" for a few days. 

It's somewhat of a cruel irony. 

She is very passionate when she's into it, but attempts to make love with her when she's just in it to please me are not entirely satisfying, and I feel a bit selfish. I love her madly, and wish I had know her when we were BOTH younger and a bit more virile. 

p.s. I know that some of my own personal frustration now was that I wasted thirty years with my ex, the last 20 of which were taken up with way too many "do it yourself" activities. I stayed married for all the wrong reasons. I deeply regret putting myself aside for so many years.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

All this understanding is wonderful. Now what? The simple fact remains that for the vast majority of these couples there's no solution no fix.


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## DDC (Jul 16, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> At the moment our relationship is on shaky ground as this and other issues are coming to a head. Yes, occasionally she nags. ie: last night i said in a jovial way while she was cooking dinner. "what are you making for supper, Tacos? " She said in a kind of snarky way " more that you're making" to which I replied that I had actually done all the dishes that day...I have cut back a lot on the things I do around here mainly because I was deprioritizing her needs without realizing it. I used to wash and vacuum her car every week, and other acts of service etc. By doing doing less it allowed me to let go of some of the resentment I was feeling. Maybe it was too much I don't know(?) To a certain extent she controls other things but we do talk about issues.


CanadianGuy, as others have pointed out - particularly Jaquen - the sexual issues are likely stemming from marital issues. 

Reading your above post, my first reaction is that your wife does not respect you. I would never tolerate being spoken to in such a disrespectful way by anyone. Being nasty for no reason is unacceptable and letting comments like this slide by reinforces her undesirable behavior.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Runs like Dog said:


> All this understanding is wonderful. Now what? The simple fact remains that for the vast majority of these couples there's no solution no fix.


The "fix" for some couples is compromise & for those struggling with this issue, it may not be a "solution." A mismatched libido is the main cause of many affairs. For those unable to compromise, it is probably best to split up.

Sad but true.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

jaquen said:


> I have a disrespect for LD people who:
> 
> A. Marry their HD partners knowing full well that they aren't willing, or capable, of remotely fulfilling their desires.
> 
> ...


I think what you are saying, and what I would agree with is that the "it" in "just do it" is "empathize".


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## lifeisnotsogood (Jun 11, 2012)

I feel you. I am HD and my wife is extremely low drive. About 10 years ago, when I threatened to move on if things didn't change, she agreed to have sex with me twice a week. It's scheduled, so she knows what days she had to suffer, LOL. Anyway, this worked for a while (10 years), but the passion and affection kept fading. I missed that terribly. I told her we needed to go to counseling and followed up to make sure she knew I was serious. I had never done counseling before, so I think she knew it was serious. We have been in counseling for a couple of months now and I was able to tell her how I felt. I let her know that every time she rejects me, i am deeply saddened and begin to detach from her. I also told her that I wanted to be desirable to her and by her not wanting to be intimate, it made me feel unwanted. Things are slowly getting better. We will randomly make-out for about 30 seconds at a time. this only happens a couple of times a day, but it sure is better that a peck every other day. The bedroom is also showing signs of improvement. I have received 3 BJ's in the last two months which is 3 more than the last 4 years. She has let me do oral on her quite a few times too. I think when she realized that I was unhappy and our marriage was on the rocks, she began to make a change. It's too bad that it has to get to that point, but at least she's trying. We are nowhere close to where I would like to be, but I think I'll just have to be happy with steady improvements and the effort she's putting into making me happier.


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## hookares (Dec 7, 2011)

MWD said:


> Sex can be controlled by either partner. There are plenty of testament to that. The problem is that it shouldn't be a card that one or the other holds. Sex should not be a tool or a bargaining chip. It should be part of the connection that a couple shares together.
> 
> -MWD


Think so?
When was the last time a woman was arrested for spousal rape?


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

DDC said:


> CanadianGuy, as others have pointed out - particularly Jaquen - the sexual issues are likely stemming from marital issues.
> 
> Reading your above post, my first reaction is that your wife does not respect you. I would never tolerate being spoken to in such a disrespectful way by anyone. Being nasty for no reason is unacceptable and letting comments like this slide by reinforces her undesirable behavior.


I agree. I do not like the way she spoke to me in that situation and found it disrespectful. When I started to do less around the house she certainly noticed that. Thus the snarky comments started much the same way an HD spouse may behave upon rejection.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

lifeisnotsogood said:


> I feel you. I am HD and my wife is extremely low drive. About 10 years ago, when I threatened to move on if things didn't change, she agreed to have sex with me twice a week. It's scheduled, so she knows what days she had to suffer, LOL. Anyway, this worked for a while (10 years), but the passion and affection kept fading. I missed that terribly. I told her we needed to go to counseling and followed up to make sure she knew I was serious. I had never done counseling before, so I think she knew it was serious. We have been in counseling for a couple of months now and I was able to tell her how I felt. I let her know that every time she rejects me, i am deeply saddened and begin to detach from her. I also told her that I wanted to be desirable to her and by her not wanting to be intimate, it made me feel unwanted. Things are slowly getting better. We will randomly make-out for about 30 seconds at a time. this only happens a couple of times a day, but it sure is better that a peck every other day. The bedroom is also showing signs of improvement. I have received 3 BJ's in the last two months which is 3 more than the last 4 years. She has let me do oral on her quite a few times too. I think when she realized that I was unhappy and our marriage was on the rocks, she began to make a change. It's too bad that it has to get to that point, but at least she's trying. We are nowhere close to where I would like to be, but I think I'll just have to be happy with steady improvements and the effort she's putting into making me happier.


For me, I think that type of 2x per week compromise is absolutely NOT the answer. Compromise is not the answer. If there is any answer it is understanding from both sides and appreciation. 

I want sex 2-4x per day, but in no way would expect my W to meet that want or come anywhere close. My expectation is for her to demonstrate desire for me regularly. I understand she does not have that internal spark and needs some external stimulus, but I expect her to say (internally), I am in love with SprucHub and am going to spend the next hour being turned on and turning him on. That, plus real kisses & hugs throughout the week.

It is hard to believe that if someone cannot put herself in this mindframe that it is not because of her lack of being in love with her spouse.

On the other hand, I understand that she needs to feel that she is not there to serve me sexually, that she has autonomy over her body, and that she doesn't necessarily conflate sex and love (and do all the other marriage things, but this is just a ld/hd discussion).

I guess what I am describing is not sex, it's love - love language stuff. I do not see the HD/LD issue as about orgams, but love and respect. No one should be responsible for all of his/her spouse's orgams if the spouse wants significantly more. Sure, a person can participate with hands, mouth, toys, but not want to be touched - or just let the other spouse take care of himself/herself. That is acceptible. But not having an independent desire for sex is very different than not wanting to have sex with your spouse. I really cannot accept someone saying - I want to share my life with you, lean on you, grow old with you, co-parent with you, forsake others for you - have you forsake others for me . . . but I can't stand having to be sexual with you.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

SprucHub said:


> For me, I think that type of 2x per week compromise is absolutely NOT the answer. Compromise is not the answer. If there is any answer it is understanding from both sides and appreciation.
> 
> I want sex 2-4x per day, but in no way would expect my W to meet that want or come anywhere close. My expectation is for her to demonstrate desire for me regularly. I understand she does not have that internal spark and needs some external stimulus, but I expect her to say (internally), I am in love with SprucHub and am going to spend the next hour being turned on and turning him on. That, plus real kisses & hugs throughout the week.
> 
> ...


You nailed it....."not having an independent desire for sex is very different than not wanting to have sex with your spouse."

LD is LD for ANY partner. If it is LD ONLY for your spouse - Big problem.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Good point SH and Emerald.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Single best two things my w did to shape my behavior in this area:
- told me in year 1 she hated being groped - she told me once but I could tell she wa furious I stopped immediately 
- in a more gradual way she taught me to perceive affection - as separate from sex 

The affection thing is great - I come up behind her, wrap my arms around her gently, she melts back into me. That response is a happy, relaxed, intimate and beautiful thing. Full body touching. Mmmmm. As the HD partner I don't morph that into foreplay. Sometimes she does, but mostly not. Which is fine. If I want sex, I have a certain look I give her. Or I say "tonight?"

And the high touch is just a happy thing for 


UOTE=River1977;955749]I apologize for what you and so many men go through. I'm not apologizing for womankind. I'm apologizing for it being this way, not that I had anything to do with the way it is of course. I don't understand it honestly. I don't understand why men and women are so very different emotionally and sexually. It seems so unfair, and I'm afraid I won't have any answers as to why until I meet my maker who created us (hope you don't mind the religious insert there). 

In the meantime, I have to disagree with almost every assertion and assessment that has been made about women in this thread (and all the others like it) by you and others. For starters, it isn't that she does not care about you or your sexual needs. One thing I hate - absolutely abhor - is the suggestion and the mindset that women should just do it. That is what you and others think and feel, but it isn't nearly so simple if for no other reason than she is as much entitled to be the way the she is as you are. And, as someone else pointed out, we are the way we are - men and women both. Unfortunately, there exists this disparity.

Oftentimes, it's just the way the woman is, perhaps your woman in this case. Oftentimes, there are reasons she's that way you are not aware of. For example, women are easily put off from sex by the man in their life. Easily put off by the way he acts over sex and the way he treats her. You mention all these things you ceased doing, but you don't know what doing those things in the first place did to her mentally and emotionally. She got turned off because she began to feel objectified. It gets to the point where a woman no longer feels wanted or appreciated. Her man just makes her feel convenient and if you think about.....if you and others are truly honest about it.....that's what she is to you - convenience, available, easy access, close proximity, yours for the asking because you're married.

So, she doesn't feel like you want HER. She feels like you just want sex, and she doesn't like that feeling. No woman likes feeling used or like a piece of furniture, but that is how a lot of men, probably most men, end up making their wife feel. Most women don't like the groping. Most women don't like the constant pressure. Most women don't like the pestering. Most women don't like that every hug or kiss has to turn into sex. A hug and kiss mean more to us than men using it as foreplay every time. 

That you stopped doing these things didn't reverse the feelings that grew on her, began to disgust her, and made her feel objectified because they were already ingrained. Because you placed so much value on sex, her sense of value to you was compromised because her value is directly related to her identity. That is all she has because you can get sex from any woman that exists. Who she is is what she needs to matter and be important to you, but you made it clear that doesn't matter any more because now she's just convenient.

I'm not trying to say you are at fault although I recognize it sounds that way. I'm only telling you how it goes for women. Being who you are and being the way you are is natural for you. It is also natural for your wife to be turned off by it. Therefore, "just do it" cannot work and is entirely disrespectful. My first husband was that way. I hated sex with him and avoided it every way I could come up with. I hated that he felt entitled. I hated that he groped me all the time. I hated that he couldn't look at me in bra and panties without trying to jump me. I hated that he couldn't simply hug me and say "I love you" and let that be that. I hated that seemingly the meer fact that I breathed made him horny. None of that had anything to do with me. It just happened to be that I was the one there. 

There were no such feelings in subsequent relationships, including my current marriage, because none other made me feel that way. Love making has always been much more satisfying but long ceased to be with him. It wasn't that I didn't care about his needs. It was that I hated feeling objectified. How he made me feel took precedence over everything, including how I felt about him. I wanted to leave him, and I did. It reached the point that had he stopped doing those things and behaving that way would not have made any difference since I'd already lost respect for him because he didn't respect me.

There are lots and lots of other reasons women's libido may wane or disappear, but I thought it important and relevant to address this particular aspect. Like I said, I think it's unfair women are the way we are in response to men being the way they are. The only possible solution I can think of is for there to be mandatory counseling for couples before marriage so each are taught and made to understand these differences between the sexes. I think that would solve a lot of problems that inevitably arise. Alas, since that isn't possible, I guess there is nothing that can be done by way of prevention. Again, it is very unfair to each gender, and I wish I had solutions to suggest. I'm sure one solution is to leave your wife and live the sexual life that you want. But, make sure not to get married again because the likelihood is you'll end up in the same boat eventually......for some reason or another. 

One thing you can try is telling her how much she means to you. Since you and she are not having sex and you're not pressuring her for sex, your words might mean more to her than you trying to get sex. Of course, you have to mean the words. If you've been neglecting her, stopped doing things for her, walking around with an attitude, chip on your shoulder, or lashing out angrily over every little nothing because she doesn't give you sex, then your words won't mean any more than your behaviors have already been saying.

Leaving will do one of two things: 1) She will become desperate to save the marriage, and that almost always increases people's libido. You probably won't be able to keep up with her because the adrenaline and hormones will drive her to want you and hope like he11 that you still want her. Or, 2) Her feelings will be confirmed that she holds no value to you than being convenient for sex, for which you are leaving her to get elsewhere.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

See I believe my wife is there to serve me sexually. I do objectify my wife sometimes. I love to make love to her, and with her, and connect and communicate, but sometimes I do just want a great blowjob, or just to enjoy fondling her breasts. Sometimes I see her as a purely sexual being.

And it's the same with her. Sometimes she just needs my penis. She craves it, and desires it, must have it. My body is there in service to her, for her, and with her. My wife sometimes objectifies me. She does not always screw me for my mind, nor to feel our deep and powerful bond. Sometimes sex for her is sex, and other times it is passionate love making.

My wife and I both believe that our bodies belong, within healthy reason, to one another. We don't abuse that power, but we acknowledge that power none the less. My body is no longer my own, in full autonomy, it is my wife's and her's is mine. Why would we be married otherwise? Why would we promise, before God, and to one another, to forsake all others if there was not a guarantee that in the continual forsaking of others there conversely came a continual pleasing of one another? 

And if one of us gets to the point where we refuse to please, where we feel our bodies have no responsibility any longer to the other, and we exist in complete autonomy to one another, than those vows are shattered, and void. For marriage is neither a state of autonomy, nor independence, but a merging of two into one. A marriage is a 1+1=1.

You can not expect a spouse to promise to forsake every other human being on the planet sexually, for the rest of their natural lives, and then claim that your body is an autonomous entity that your spouse is not entitled to enjoy for pleasure, and with reasonable regularity. That is wrong, and that is NOT marriage.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

CG -

You are getting all kinds of differing viewpoints here - confused much? LOL

There are no easy answers for LD/HD partnerships. You seem like a great guy who loves his wife, so maybe change the way you look at 2X a week as a wonderful thing instead of hoping for more?

Sexual desire by definition is quite complicated. Find that compromise that can satisfy you both - it's out there


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## Kasler (Jul 20, 2012)

I'm pretty LD.

The urge just doesn't strike too often for me. 

Thats why I only date women who are similar.


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

Desire can be increased though, that is what libido is, sexual desire, however, if someone is having desire for someone else that is not having low libido, that is losing desire simply for the spouse... but that too can be fixed. 
Either way, an LD spouse usually has reasons whether mental, emotional, physical, it's a matter of communication and getting to the reasons, resolving them, and then working together to increase the desire together, and working to meet the needs to the HD partner, and wanting to increase sexual desire... that want is the difference.... I wanted to increase it, so did my friends in their relationships, when we talked, it wasnt that they didn't want to have sex with their husbands at all, it's that their relationships had gotten to the point where sex wasn't on their minds, had a negative cognitive association, or they were having disconnects in other areas of their relationships... not doing date nights, arguing about things, didn't feel emotionally connected, felt used with sex, felt like a mother before they felt like a woman (notice I said woman not wife).


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

More than one person stated she doesn't respect you. It isn't that she does not respect you. I already tried to explained this. It has nothing to do with respect. What she stated, however snarky, is result of issues in your marriage. You are holding back on us and not offering details although it is doubtful you would be completely honest about your role in how your wife feels. Most men don't confess, so it's quite all right because, like I said, you probably don't realize it. I can tell you though if you disrespect her, then she is not going to want to have sex with you. In fact, the worse you are in your disrespect of her, the more disgusted with you and repulsed by the thought of you touching her she will be. Nonetheless, my point is that the average woman does not refuse sex because she disrespects her husband. Again, it has nothing to do with respect. 



CanadianGuy said:


> From reading all of the replies and comments on this thread I can say I have gained insight and understanding into both LD and HD persons. It sounds difficult for an LD person to want to increase their drive because if the desire to have sex isn't there the last thing they would want to do would be to think about it. Coming from an HD perspective I can say that it has not been easy directing those sexual energies in a way that is respectful of my own feelings and my spouses. As I am learning it can be done without resentment.
> 
> In a relationship with a LD and HD persons it would seem so far that the HD is the one initially suffering and in turn creates suffering for their partner. If in our hearts we truly wish to do things that make our spouse happy then a compromise has to be taken seriously ( albiet - with an attitude towards "fun" ) Both partners have to show in their actions a willingness to change for the better of the "relationship" rather than the individual. I would add that an HD spouse has no choice in accepting less sex,passion, intimacy, desire etc, from their LD partners because if the LD person doesn't "feel" like having sex it is most likely not going to happen. And why should it if the LD doesn't feel like it? This is the critical part, the HD's behavior upon rejection (s) and the LD behavior/reaction to the "constant pressure" ( LD's words) to have sex. So really the HD needs to work on toning it down but at the same time the LD needs to work on kicking it up. Both are personal journeys for the better of the relationship.
> 
> ...


You are way off base.

You responded to me a few pages ago to say you are "not a fan of just do it" but you surely are. In everything you write, you surely are. As I stated in my first post, it is what you expect your wife to do. To prove that to you, you posted this thread (and reminded us several times) to find out if any LD people have done anything to increase their sex drive. Therefore, you look at it, as far as your wife is concerned, as some kind of singular consignment if you understand the juxtaposition of those two antiprastic words. You expect her to perform an exercise, an act of contrition, or incantation to transform herself for your sexual benefit. Although you stopped doing those things she didn't like - which she didn't like because you objectified her - you never stopped objectifying her. It's the way you think and feel, so you express that in other ways, and you keep on doing it here. I realize you are probably not aware of it. 

To expect a woman to do something to increase her sex drive means you expect her to "just do it." It doesn't mean anything else because she has no magic wand. 

It isn't about "action from both parties" either. That also means "just do it." Again, your wife responds to you, but you expect her to just take action. 

Compromise is definitely not the answer because that also means "just do it." 

It is not something she can do for herself. You have to make her want you. You have to stop making her not want you by stopping the things you do and say that turn her off.

I apologized for there being such disparity between the sexes. I was apologizing for the way women, being the way we are, respond to men being the way they are. You missed the operative word "respond." Your wife responds to you. You turned her off by objectifying her because it made her feel disrespected. So you stopped doing those things. I suggested the only solution I can think is pre-marital counseling for couples to learn about and understand their differences to prevent these otherwise inevitable problems between the sexes. You missed my point in that too, which was to say you do not understand your wife. She responds to you which means that although you turned her off, you could also turn her on.......if you understood her......if you tried to understand her or anything I'm saying. But you don't because you responded to me with your defensive denial (don't mean to be harsh, just stating my observation) and then brushed me off to state your question again as if I had not addressed it and I was talking out of left field about an entirely different subject.

Here is a very good response for you. Please take note.



MEM11363 said:


> Single best two things my w did to shape my behavior in this area:
> - told me in year 1 she hated being groped - she told me once but I could tell she wa furious I stopped immediately
> - in a more gradual way she taught me to perceive affection - as separate from sex
> 
> The affection thing is great - I come up behind her, wrap my arms around her gently, she melts back into me. That response is a happy, relaxed, intimate and beautiful thing. Full body touching. Mmmmm. As the HD partner I don't morph that into foreplay. Sometimes she does, but mostly not. Which is fine. If I want sex, I have a certain look I give her. Or I say "tonight?"


See what I mean? Your wife responds to you. If you are mean/angry/unkind/disrespectful, she will feel worthless to you and will respond back the same way. If you pressure for sex and are disrespectful in that manner, she will feel objectified, devalued, and turned off. You can expect her all you want to do something to increase her sex drive, but I need you to understand her sex drive depends one heck of a lot on you. I have no doubt that you and most of the other suffering men on this board are wishing SimplyAmorous was your wife. But, I hope she responds to tell you how she would feel and respond if her husband were like the first two sentences in this paragraph. It's possible she can't fathom it if she never experienced it.

You can turn your wife back on. You need to understand her and learn how. It mostly depends on you but doesn't ALL fall on your shoulders. As I and someone else said before, men and women need to understand each other and their differences. Your wife has to learn about you too and understand you. She needs to understand what sex means to you. She needs to feel that while wanting and needing sex is a hormonal response in men that she is the one you desire. Frankly, I'm not hearing much desire for her coming from you. All I hear from you is you want sex and you want it from her because you're married to her (_Repeat: that's what she is to you - convenience, available, easy access, close proximity, yours for the asking because you're married._ All that entitlement stuff that she loathes and you can't hide.) However, if she understood you from a love standpoint, if you can impress what she means to you, and if you could make her feel like you love her if you and she never had sex again, it would make a big difference in how she feels and how she views sex with you. Someone (I think Emerald) stated she WANTS to please her husband. I feel exactly the same way. I never said "no" or the "I have a headache" kind of thing to any man except my first husband (first marriage only lasted two years), not even when I wasn't in the mood. It is far easier for you to destroy her desire (as has apparently happened) than it is for her to restore it. By the same token, you can make her WANT to please you. By that same token again, you can increase her desire in that not only does she want to please you, but she will WANT you.

Of course, you will get nowhere and no amount of counseling will help if you continue thinking the way you do and if you think like this.......



jaquen said:


> If this is apparently how "most women" think, act, and feel, I have to thank you for outlining this in all it's terrible glory.
> 
> I have never, in my entire life, been more grateful that my love isn't like "most women" than I am in this very moment.
> 
> My God.


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## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> At the moment our relationship is on shaky ground as this and other issues are coming to a head. Yes, occasionally she nags. ie: last night i said in a jovial way while she was cooking dinner. "what are you making for supper, Tacos? " She said in a kind of snarky way " more that you're making" to which I replied that I had actually done all the dishes that day...I have cut back a lot on the things I do around here mainly because I was deprioritizing her needs without realizing it. I used to wash and vacuum her car every week, and other acts of service etc. By doing doing less it allowed me to let go of some of the resentment I was feeling. Maybe it was too much I don't know(?) To a certain extent she controls other things but we do talk about issues.


Most women are attracted to men who do their fair share without being asked or nagged. Just because they know they should and it's the right thing to do.

However doing to much can also be a problem, as it sets you up to be a doormat. Also if your critisices the way you do things thing, you shouldn't put up with that (as long as you are doing your best), in those circumstances it's best to make a joke, and carry on like she never said anything. 

If a woman nags you, rather then requests things nicely, it means she is viewing you as a child. This kiss sex drive in a woman. A woman does not want a man child, they want a strong capable man.

She also shouldn't be controling things, this again points to a parent child relationship, and that isn't sexy to a woman, even if it seems it's what she really wants and has troubple letting go of the control. 

Most women find men sexy, who have good values and know what they stand for. Who will not be swayed from their core value by their friends or even their wife. She wants to know you are a rock, very dependable.

They want a man who pays attention to the little things. Remembers small things they said and little things they like. If you have a bad memory on this stuff, put it in your phone, make a list etc.

They most likely want a confident capable man who can run the ship all by himself. 

Also flirting is very important. Keeping that sexual energy takes effort but is so worth it.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

River1977 said:


> More than one person stated she doesn't respect you. It isn't that she does not respect you. I already tried to explained this. It has nothing to do with respect. What she stated, however snarky, is result of issues in your marriage. You are holding back on us and not offering details although it is doubtful you would be completely honest about your role in how your wife feels. Most men don't confess, so it's quite all right because, like I said, you probably don't realize it. I can tell you though if you disrespect her, then she is not going to want to have sex with you. In fact, the worse you are in your disrespect of her, the more disgusted with you and repulsed by the thought of you touching her she will be. Nonetheless, my point is that the average woman does not refuse sex because she disrespects her husband. Again, it has nothing to do with respect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



River, this is SO spot on for me and my marriage, I am going to have my husband read it when he gets home. Thank you for taking the time to type this out and explain it.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

River1977 said:


> Of course, you will get nowhere and no amount of counseling will help if you continue thinking the way you do and if you think like this.......


Interesting how I'm the cautionary tale you present to CanadianGuy, yet you're suffering from drive and sex issues in your marriage, and I'm having sex as often as I, and my wife, want it. No matter what's going on in our marriage, whether things are up, or down, we don't take it out on each other in the bedroom, and we always, every single week, year after year, find ourselves making love and strengthening our connection through sex.

Your "every woman" take doesn't sound an iota like the woman I've been in love with for my entire adult life. The insight you're providing into "how women work" thankfully doesn't remotely, on any level, correspond to my woman, and I thank truly the Lord above for that. The description you provide of "every woman" is a nightmare.

So my advice to CanadianGuy is if your wife looks anything like the horrifying description River1977 is suggesting all women inherently look like, don't believe her, and find yourself an incredible woman who does not expect you to climb mountains, swim oceans, and slay dragons just to get a chance at sleeping with her. Don't settle for a _victim_ who's entire sexual thrust, drive, and desire is born, and dies, at your hands. Find a woman who's sexually in tune, alive, and virile ON HER OWN, sans you, a woman whose sexuality and sensuality are her own, and not waiting around for you to validate, or create, a spark or drive in her. 

Trust me when I say they do exist, contrary to the tales being spun for your consideration.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jaquen said:


> My wife and I both believe that our bodies belong, within healthy reason, to one another. We don't abuse that power, but we acknowledge that power none the less. My body is no longer my own, in full autonomy, it is my wife's and her's is mine. Why would we be married otherwise? Why would we promise, before God, and to one another, to forsake all others if there was not a guarantee that in the continual forsaking of others there conversely came a continual pleasing of one another?


This is







We possess the same spirit as what you have written here, I love him to the moon & back for feeling as this.



> *River1977 said*: See what I mean? Your wife responds to you. If you are mean/angry/unkind/disrespectful, she will feel worthless to you and will respond back the same way. If you pressure for sex and are disrespectful in that manner, she will feel objectified, devalued, and turned off. You can expect her all you want to do something to increase her sex drive, but I need you to understand her sex drive depends one heck of a lot on you. I have no doubt that you and most of the other suffering men on this board are wishing SimplyAmorous was your wife. But, I hope she responds to tell you how she would feel and respond if her husband were like the first two sentences in this paragraph. It's possible she can't fathom it if she never experienced it.


 Very true...I have NEVER (not even a moment) felt "used" for sex, he doesn't even like the word, it is only "making love" to him ..... never felt "objectified" (wouldn't even understand that feeling).... disrespected- NEVER....my husband getting angry over not getting enough (Here I say he should have! instead of stuffing silently- that is no better)...

I have NEVER felt devalued or unloved....I also never had to nag for things, he was always faithful & true to his word.... the way I am treated is near Fairytalish...and I mean that truly, the man wears a halo in many respects. 

And of course this plays into how I RESPOND...heightening my admiration, Respect, a gratefulness there, every beautiful thing I want to share with him, he is approachable, loving, receptive, and my best friend. Some may say this has no edge and lowers the passion...but I can't say that is true for us. 

So yeah....River is on it...it does matter -- OMG soooo much....HOW a husband makes his wife FEEL inside, about herself , if she feels accepted, admired, loved for who she is, forgiven when she messes up, cherished, needed for affection -but not just to "get off" -then he gets up & leaves the room. 

For instance...my husband holds me until he falls asleep -always... he talks to me, listens to me, wants to hear about my day....... of course if one gets too much of this royal treatment ..... she can also take a wonderful man for Granted...(I did!) ...so there is a balance in all things. 

Be honorable in words & actions before her.....but be assertive also.....a man has needs, I don't feel he should deny this in any way either....but can he learn to more lovingly express himself as to not push his wife away... making her feel inadequate (if this is happening??).... learn to build her up with words of affirmation - notice the good, express it on a daily basis (get the LOVE DARE Book for suggestions)...and come at her with a spirit of .......

....." I love you, I am not perfect but I want to be a better husband, you are the love of my life, my best friend, we've missed it along the way, but I want this to change.... I desire to get closer to you, but I need you in this... can we meet each other half way".....something to that effect.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

jaquen said:


> Interesting how I'm the cautionary tale you present to CanadianGuy, yet you're suffering from drive and sex issues in your marriage


I read this far and was so shocked that I had to look to see who wrote it. I wasn't surprised and didn't bother to read any farther knowing the rest of your post, like all your others, is not worth reading. Since you have some difficulty understanding, I will remind you that I never, ever in any way, shape, or form made any type of reference that my marriage has any issues at all, much less sexual ones......or that I'm suffering??? I did, in fact, twice in this thread alone state just the opposite. Okay with me if it makes you feel better to manufacture my life in your imagination....while you are supposedly so exuberantly happy.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This is
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you lovely. It certainly has helped us keep things in perspective. We're not perfect, but we are getting better year by year. The goal is to grow deeper, and more tightly woven together, as time goes on.

The more I read of your posts, the more I feel like you and I have kindred marriages. It's uncanny just how much of your experience in, and perspective on, marriage just resonates with how my wife and I feel.



River1977 said:


> ...while you are supposedly so exuberantly happy.


Yes, I am, thank you.

Your screams of indignation fall on deaf ears considering that you, at the tail end of a long, exhaustive post, felt the need to single out my perspective as a cautionary tale on how NOT to look at marriage. How petty. You forfeited the right to be up in arms the moment you decided to go out of your way to belittle my perspective in a post that actually had absolutely nothing to do with your point, or the dissertation you were addressing to the OP. So forgive me if I can't muster up the caring to take yet another one of your personal attacks on me seriously. You've been nasty, and rude to me from the very first encounter we've ever had on this board, in a thread about children, totally unprovoked, and I see time hasn't quelled your ill temperament an iota.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

River1977 said:


> More than one person stated she doesn't respect you. It isn't that she does not respect you. I already tried to explained this. It has nothing to do with respect. What she stated, however snarky, is result of issues in your marriage. You are holding back on us and not offering details although it is doubtful you would be completely honest about your role in how your wife feels. Most men don't confess, so it's quite all right because, like I said, you probably don't realize it. I can tell you though if you disrespect her, then she is not going to want to have sex with you. In fact, the worse you are in your disrespect of her, the more disgusted with you and repulsed by the thought of you touching her she will be. Nonetheless, my point is that the average woman does not refuse sex because she disrespects her husband. Again, it has nothing to do with respect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


River, what if LD wives feel objectified because they do not want sex, rather than not wanting sex because they feel objectified?

You say Canada dude expects his wife to take independent action - flip a switch - just do it. Obviously we do not know all his facts. But, generically for an LD spouse, she should absolutely flip the empathy switch.

If you (not you specifically, you're happy, the generic "you" being an LD spouse) are generally satisfied in your marriage and your H isn't because there is not enough sex (or sex feels like an obligation you are satisfying), your first thought should not be that "he just wants to use me like a glory hole." You should think - oh my gosh, here is a man that has committed his life to me and has lived with me and agreed to forsake all others for me, and I turn him down for sex or express less than enthusiam when we have sex. Here is a man who has shown me every side of himself, the father of my children. And I have shown him I am not physically interested in him. 

A modicum of empthy with a dash of introspection should reveal that he must be emotionally devastated. 4 seconds on Google or in a marriage book would reveal that he must feel so inadequate to have given so much for me only to be turned away when he asks for something. Or worse, he is afraid to ask me for something.

Obviously, if there is something wrong in the marriage, the sex may be wanting. But, if an LD spouse has not expressed what she/he is missing - then it is simply cruel to not show how grateful you are in the way that he understands. Unless you aren't grateful - in which case, he should know that.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jaquen said:


> The more I read of your posts, the more I feel like you and I have kindred marriages. It's uncanny just how much of your experience in, and perspective on, marriage just resonates with how my wife and I feel.


Well I have already established *STONEWALL* as my husband's twin on here & I sound eerily similar to his wife ...from meeting in thier teens to even their very temperments...so we already have a near "mirrored" married couple like us.

... but on VIEWS on marriage & SEX.... oh yeah... I have noticed it too... we are IN SINC near 100%..... when I read some of your feisty (if I can say that for a man) posts... I think to myself... "give it to them Jaquen!!" ...it resonates my own thoughts big time... Except when I thought you was ranting on "Nice men" in social - I have claws too -ha ha!!

You express yourself very well, no sugar coating going on with you .... but I LIKE that . 

But you & River need to make nice, you are both very articulate and have great points on here, both greatly valued .


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Interesting how I'm the cautionary tale you present to CanadianGuy, yet you're suffering from drive and sex issues in your marriage, and I'm having sex as often as I, and my wife, want it. No matter what's going on in our marriage, whether things are up, or down, we don't take it out on each other in the bedroom, and we always, every single week, year after year, find ourselves making love and strengthening our connection through sex.
> 
> Your "every woman" take doesn't sound an iota like the woman I've been in love with for my entire adult life. The insight you're providing into "how women work" thankfully doesn't remotely, on any level, correspond to my woman, and I thank truly the Lord above for that. The description you provide of "every woman" is a nightmare.
> 
> ...


I have to agree, not EVERY WOMAN feels that way.... and for me, going from LD to HD (I don't even like the HD word anymore I'd like to say SD Synced Drives) it was part of what counseling suggested, we resolve our bedroom issues... its what I've read everywhere, and to do that, both parties do have to learn how the other is thinking and feeling and um... compromise on issues there are so many ways this can be accomplished through the relationship and lead a woman to WANT to just do it, lol.... wow that post was so angry. I am glad I have never felt that angry about this subject, I have always wanted to figure out a way to resolve it, and get my sex drive back.... but the is one point spot on, disrespect or missing needs in other areas of the relationship will lead any partner to be less attracted to the other... example, if a woman is only giving her husband sex, and not meeting his other needs as a wife, is he going to be completely happy.... no. Sex is not the answer to everything, however it is the number one need of a man... and as women we have to understand that, or choose to stay single the rest of our lives, or find a man who is no longer interested has ED, etc. As women and good wives we need to try to find the interest and the spark that was once there for the man we fell madly in love with.... the one you used to yearn for his kiss, get butterflies from that kiss, and a tingle in your body.... I am often surprised at the women who don't even mention those initial feelings and miss them at all  Anyway... went on a tangent... sorry.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Well I have already established *STONEWALL* as my husband's twin on here & I sound eerily similar to his wife ...from meeting in thier teens to even their very temperments...so we already have a near "mirrored" married couple like us.


That's funny. My wife and I met when we were in the 10th grade.



SimplyAmorous said:


> But you & River need to make nice, you are both very articulate and have great points on here, both greatly valued .


We'll see. This is the second or third bizarre, out of the blue attack this poster has lobbied at me in our limited interactions. It's strange, and I won't be spending any time trying to analyze the problem. If we make nice, well nice, and if not, well oh well.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

livelaughlovenow said:


> I have to agree, not EVERY WOMAN feels that way........As women and good wives we need to try to find the interest and the spark that was once there for the man we fell madly in love with.... the one you used to yearn for his kiss, get butterflies from that kiss, and a tingle in your body.... I am often surprised at the women who don't even mention those initial feelings and miss them at all  Anyway... went on a tangent... sorry.


You are so right. It's not EVERY WOMAN who feels that way. So very many times, I stated "most" or "some" or "sometimes" or "oftentimes" etc. so as not group all women or all men as being the same. I would completely devalue my own words if I did that. 

However, I can't agree with your statement of what women and good wives need need to do because that groups us together as being all the same and living all the same circumstances. A good example is when I stated I never felt again about any man as I felt about my first husband or by any man the way he made me feel. So, I didn't experience that problem again. I regret here that I forgot about the one who was abusive. I didn''t want him either and was completely disgusted by him. So, no, I didn't care anything about pleasing either of them and couldn't care less to remember that I was ever attracted to them at one time.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

River1977 said:


> More than one person stated she doesn't respect you. It isn't that she does not respect you. I already tried to explained this. It has nothing to do with respect. What she stated, however snarky, is result of issues in your marriage. You are holding back on us and not offering details although it is doubtful you would be completely honest about your role in how your wife feels. Most men don't confess, so it's quite all right because, like I said, you probably don't realize it. I can tell you though if you disrespect her, then she is not going to want to have sex with you. In fact, the worse you are in your disrespect of her, the more disgusted with you and repulsed by the thought of you touching her she will be. Nonetheless, my point is that the average woman does not refuse sex because she disrespects her husband. Again, it has nothing to do with respect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can appreciate your point of view. Thanks for posting this perspective. Apologies if you felt I disregarded your earlier post. So if I understand you here it's all about my behavior? How I make her feel and understand her? Wrapping my arms around her in a non-pressuring way. I do that. Have been doing it and continue to. So then she'll respond to me? Not in the moment, not later, it simply doesn't happen that way River. She does not understand me or the hormonal response you point to. She does not feel the issue is hers but mine and mine alone. So why would she even care about mens needs. She doesn't give a Sh#t about what sex means to me. I've told her years ago. She told me to go wank off. Tonight she told me to become a gigolo and find a rich woman and f her orifice. Sure felt like hugging her after that. Not. Other issues. Of course we have them obviously. At least I'm working on it. She has made no attempt to at all. But hey according to you I'm doing something wrong as you hear no desire. All you hear from me is I want sex from her because I'm married to her. That's so wrong I won't get into it. What I want is a genuine effort from her equal to mine. I can't ask or expect that because I'm the one with the problem.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

SruceHub, this isn't the first time I've stated these things. I don't expect everyone reads every post on these boards, but I must be failing miserably because you guys aren't getting it LOL. Sorry about that, so I'll try to address your individual statements to perhaps explain myself a little better, at least where your specific statements are concerned.



SprucHub said:


> River, what if LD wives feel objectified because they do not want sex, rather than not wanting sex because they feel objectified?


It's not a convertible car where the feelings and reasons for the feelings are interchangeable. Either she feels objectified or she doesn't. Either she wants sex or she doesn't. Or, she doesn't want sex because she feels objectified. Not the other way around though because her feelings are not conjured by something that doesn't exist. Does that make any sense? Let me know.



SprucHub said:


> You say Canada dude expects his wife to take independent action - flip a switch - just do it. Obviously we do not know all his facts. But, generically for an LD spouse, she should absolutely flip the empathy switch.


Yes of course, and this is what I said - that men and women need to understand each other. Most women have no idea what sex means to men. It is a fact that most of the women on these boards didn't know or understand until reading on these boards. I am one of them. Although we don't have such problems, I never knew how "desiring" my husband makes him feel. I just thought we were great together in what we shared but because I'm not in his body, I had no idea the importance. I only knew what it means to me. Get it? Women don't know, which is why I tried to impress on CanadianGuy that they need to understand each other. Being a woman, I could only give him this minute aspect of how women are. One thing I learned from the guys on these boards is a saying "Women need love to want sex, and men need sex to feel loved." I totally understand now......well, almost totally because, again, I'm not in his body. For example, your wife could tell you how painful labor and childbirth is. You will empathize and likely feel bad for her, but you can never know how she feels. It will help his wife in the empathy department for him to let his wife know what it means to him. Along with that, it will help his wife to know what she means to him (if anything) because women need to know.



SprucHub said:


> If you (not you specifically, you're happy, the generic "you" being an LD spouse) are generally satisfied in your marriage and your H isn't because there is not enough sex (or sex feels like an obligation you are satisfying), your first thought should not be that "he just wants to use me like a glory hole." You should think - oh my gosh, here is a man that has committed his life to me and has lived with me and agreed to forsake all others for me, and I turn him down for sex or express less than enthusiam when we have sex. Here is a man who has shown me every side of himself, the father of my children. And I have shown him I am not physically interested in him.


You're talking about gratitude and appreciation, right? But, that's not what I've been talking about. What I've been talking is how it can happen that men turn their wives off from sex and that they need to understand that they turn her off and that they can turn her back on by understanding how women are, which will help them understand how they turn her off and how to turn her on. 

It's easy to say how a wife should feel or think, but you contradicted yourself two times. You don't want it to feel like she's satisfying an obligation or express less than enthusiasm, but where should she conjure the passion and excitement when she's not in the mood? And/Or, where does she get them from if you don't conjure those feelings from within her? Are you saying you WANT her to fake it? She's giving you sex because obviously she DOES think _oh my gosh, here is a man that has committed his life to me and has lived with me and agreed to forsake all others for me,_ but that's not enough because you want it mind blowing every time. She's not you, SpruceHub. Most women don't have the sex drive that most men do, and not all women are like SA. Again, and I can't say it enough, men and women need to understand each other. I'm going to assume you are projecting your situation, so I need to repeat myself in saying if you understood your wife, you'd be much better able to evoke those feelings of empathy and desire that you desire from her. Because you are not in her body and have no idea how she feels, you are basing your opinion on how YOU feel. That's all you have to go by because you don't understand HER. 

I will point out also that the majority of threads on these boards are a matter of the complainant changing themselves in some way or another, while they are complaining that their spouse needs to change. This is something that usually applies. It doesn't mean you have to change yourself in terms of somehow turning off your sex drive. I can't imagine that's possible. I'm saying, you have to change your way of thinking. I don't believe all women who are considered LD actually are LD. I think there are husbands who need a new perspective......like learning to understand their wives, rather than suffering for years on end. Someone said (paraphrasing here) people need to not marry until they find like-driven mates. That's ridiculous. Practically all of us will be looking forever, and the vast majority would never marry. Those who do either got lucky or possess the temperment and perspective that is necessary and suitable for the mate that they have. They understand each other. There is no osmosis happening. Men and women are very different and need to learn and understand each other.

(Making two disclaimers here: One is that some women and some men are simply low drive. There may be reasons for that, but I cannot deny there are some who simply have no or very little sex drive. In that case, no amount of understanding or learning will the sex department. That is not, however, for you to assume this applies to your wife. The second disclaimer is some women are not sexually satisfied by their husband. Yes, she fell in love and wanted to marry him, but that didn't mean he was able to push her sexual buttons. If sex is not satisfying, she doesn't want to have sex. This can turn into the obligation sex because she's getting nothing out of it, so no, there is nowhere for her to summon passion or excitement from. I'm not saying this applies to you and your wife. I'm just saying these things happen so as to separate these possibilies from my earlier statements. It will help though for whom these statements do apply to find ways to make sex more satisfying for their wife. I know it can be done despite some men having the complex that size matters. I know it doesn't matter. Technique, skill, knowledge, and caring are what matter more than anything.)



SprucHub said:


> A modicum of empthy with a dash of introspection should reveal that he must be emotionally devastated. 4 seconds on Google or in a marriage book would reveal that he must feel so inadequate to have given so much for me only to be turned away when he asks for something. Or worse, he is afraid to ask me for something.


And that would be a natural and integral part of a woman understanding her man. What do you think your wife would do if you said those words to her? Or, would she say you are deluding yourself in thinking you do/give so much for her? And, what do your words/actions/behaviors on a daily basis say to her? Do you turn her off? because I'm getting the message that you don't turn her on. Marriage is work, and learning and understanding your wife helps you to know what to work on. The same goes for her where you are concerned. But, your wife isn't going to get these messages subliminally. You seem to think she should.



SprucHub said:


> Obviously, if there is something wrong in the marriage, the sex may be wanting. But, if an LD spouse has not expressed what she/he is missing - then it is simply cruel to not show how grateful you are in the way that he understands. Unless you aren't grateful - in which case, he should know that.


You keep sayin this. I think this is the third time in different words. So my understanding is there's obligation sex, there's chore sex, there's less than enthusiastic sex, and now there's gratitude sex. And you want it mind blowing every time. Okay. LOL

I haven't the mental fortitude or the patience to go back and count how many times I've expressed the importance of men and women learning and understanding each other. The first thing you need to learn is the meaning of unconditional love. Most people think it means you are supposed to love someone no matter what - no matter how they are and no matter what they do (or don't do as it were). But that's not what it means. Unconditional love means to love someone without expectations. You love them and do for them out of love because you love them without expecting anything in return. If you conduct your marriage expecting your wife's undying and ever-displayed gratitude, then you're in the wrong frame of mind. See there. I told you you need a new perspective.......and you need to understand your wife.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

Wow, CG. You're showing me that I'm right. I know you don't see it that way, but I hope MC will help you to see it. I hope it will help you both. I'm telling you how most women are and that we are almost entirely responsive to our man. You're telling me that your wife responds to you, just not in the cushy ways you would like. I said that too - that you turned her off. That woman is resentful and angry like all get out, and it came from you because the stimulus for resentment and anger are not imagined, not in mentally stable people. You're also telling me you project your resentment and anger onto her too because you are sure projecting it here like a bullhorn. I knew I was right. That's not a boast of any sort. I'm a woman of average feelings, and there's no better person to tell you how your wife is other than your wife. And, truly, there is nothing new under the sun. You are not unique, and neither is your wife. Your failing marriage is not unique. I and many others have lived your relationship. I hope you will come to see that. I think you will if your counselor is a good one.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

MWD,
This is a theme that is well understood in healthy marriages with a high level of mutuality. 

In those marriages the stuff below is (luckily) absent (or if you do, they are very rare):

HD
1. The HD partner radiating a lot of unwanted sexual attention at the LD partner. That attention sadly, comes in so many forms that it saturates the house:
- Groping 
- Highly sexualized comments/remarks innuendo 
- Body language (staring while your partner gets undressed)

2. A high degree of quid pro quo related to sex 
- I will do x,y,z IF we can have sex this weekend (often said in jest - but not really joking about it)
- If we don't have sex - I am going to be very unfun to be around 

3. Showing little sensitivity to how your partner is feeling. 

LD
1. The LD partner avoiding, deceiving and flat out lying about their desire for their spouse. Mix a good provider with a spouse who wasn't ever that attracted to her/him - and DECEPTION is the norm. No one wants to derail the gravy train. 
2. The LD partner periodically sending out a mixed signal - just to reassure themselves that the HD partner is still in heat.
3. The LD partner frequently rejecting - and never initiating. AND never coming up with some simple, but low key system for conveying if they are interested. This is simply cruel. 


QUOTE=MWD;952399]Sex can be controlled by either partner. There are plenty of testament to that. The problem is that it shouldn't be a card that one or the other holds. Sex should not be a tool or a bargaining chip. It should be part of the connection that a couple shares together. 

-MWD[/QUOTE]


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LLL,
I read your list below - it made me uneasy. For the average HD person - you start down this path and it ends badly:
- You have to date me
- We have to argue less - we argue to much it is a turn off

I am all for dates. They are a good thing. And it is something both spouses are responsible for. The way this stuff reads is: you the man need to own this "dating" thing. Seems one sided. As for arguing less - I am all for it. 

Let me summarize Mrs. MEM's original view of arguing - when we first married: Stop disagreeing with me so much. 

I am not suggesting that is what you meant. I am however suggesting that the approach to less arguing has to be mutual. If you are the LD spouse in a sexually impaired marriage, it is an act of marital aggression to say: One reason we don't have much sex is that we fight so much. 

There is no way - as the HD spouse - to interpret that other than: If you were a good little doormat, I might lie with you a bit more. 

And this is the difference between a toxic LD spouse - frankly a toxic spouse - and a loving spouse. The former says "I HAVE TO BE HAPPIER for me to up your ration of sex from starvation, to better than starvation", the latter says "The marriage needs to be stronger for US to feel more love for each other. This is what I would like US to try. 





livelaughlovenow said:


> Desire can be increased though, that is what libido is, sexual desire, however, if someone is having desire for someone else that is not having low libido, that is losing desire simply for the spouse... but that too can be fixed.
> Either way, an LD spouse usually has reasons whether mental, emotional, physical, it's a matter of communication and getting to the reasons, resolving them, and then working together to increase the desire together, and working to meet the needs to the HD partner, and wanting to increase sexual desire... that want is the difference.... I wanted to increase it, so did my friends in their relationships, when we talked, it wasnt that they didn't want to have sex with their husbands at all, it's that their relationships had gotten to the point where sex wasn't on their minds, had a negative cognitive association, or they were having disconnects in other areas of their relationships... not doing date nights, arguing about things, didn't feel emotionally connected, felt used with sex, felt like a mother before they felt like a woman (notice I said woman not wife).


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

River,
I believe I understand the underlying logic that a lack of sexual desire typically does not cause someone to feel objectified. 

I also believe that sexually impaired marriages are full of deception. Perhaps even better to say they are - at least in that area - based on deception. 

W: has lost her desire completely, husband is crowding her spatially, temporally, emotionally and sexually. Smothering her. 
H: has demanded MC

They are in their first MC session. Counselor asks wife how come they aren't having sex. 
W: I am resentful that he doesn't do more house work 

So by end of the session, H has agreed to take on whatever he was asked to do, because he is desperate to fix this issue. 

Thing is - the sexual problem had been going on for a year before the MC session. Not once had she ever mentioned house work. Because it turns out he did his fair share. She only referenced house work because she was under duress and had to say something. She doesn't really know for sure why her desire is gone. So instead of opening a really painful and difficult topic she says: I am very resentful because he doesn't do his share around the house. And - I am paraphrasing here - I am not sure how long it is going to take me to get over it. 

This now creates an open ended time frame where she gets to claim resentment, completely rewires the power dynamic in the marriage in her favor and allows her to avoid a topic that is confusing and potentially dangerous to marital stability. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

When I said these marriages were often based on deceit, I meant that BOTH people were deceitful. The husband is more guilty of self deception because:
- He knows he is smothering her - she tells him near daily with body language and that irritated tone of voice people (men and women) have when they feel smothered
- And he knows it isn't about house work - because she never once mentioned that in the prior year. 

If he were honest - he would acknowledge that he is part of the problem. In fact, if he doesn't stop smothering, there is zero chance of their sexual problem being solved. 





River1977 said:


> SruceHub, this isn't the first time I've stated these things. I don't expect everyone reads every post on these boards, but I must be failing miserably because you guys aren't getting it LOL. Sorry about that, so I'll try to address your individual statements to perhaps explain myself a little better, at least where your specific statements are concerned.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CanadianGuy said:


> I do agree and have let her know on several occasions what my postion and needs are. That's why I now believe that this has been one sided on my part as I really see no effort from her. Am I wrong to expect an effort from her? I am direct and feel I approach her in a respectful manner. She feels I am trying to control her. ( her words)


I got a smokescreen from my ex when trying to resolve the sex drive issue. The key is whether your wife has promised more activity if you work with her or whether she is simply telling you to stop doing XYZ. It's important you listen carefully to her.

So, my take is that you are entitled to a satisfying sex life in marriage. If she has made explicit promises to provide for your need or improve her drive, then you are not controlling her but simply trying to get her to be good to her word. 

On the other hand, if she has flat out told you that she will not work to improve the sex life, I could see why she would call you controlling. IMO, that she would refer to you as "controlling" is telling. You need to know that regardless of what she SAYS she will do to meet your sex drive, her ACTIONS belie an intent to continue to deny her issues and make it your fault. She simply does not plan to change and you need to act accordingly.

This is time for the 180. Simply tell her that she is your wife as well as a mother, etc. and that she has fallen short. Then, as you have done everything you can to enhance her drive without success, and as she has made it clear your attempts are unwelcome, you are backing off. But (and this is crucial) make it clear that your expectations of her have not changed.

So, then, as she does not want your help, it is up to her to meet your need. You will continue to hold her accountable for meeting your need, which you have made clear to her. Since she does not want to communicate about it, the way you treat her will send a clear signal about the adequacy of her effort. She is not entitled to get more from you than you from her.

Then, steel yourself. You have only eliminated the current dynamic and forced a decision point. She may fall into line and meet your need, but she may do so begrudgingly. Or, she may own up and admit that she just does not like you that much and accepts significant distance between you in the marriage (although I don't think this would last long). Or, she may decide that the marriage is not worthwhile if she does not get premium treatment from you. Count the cost before you act.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

livelaughlovenow said:


> I recognized his efforts and realized i needed to give in return.


This is the key. You need to tell your wife that she has a commitment to you. She needs to get in the frame of mind where it works for her (whether by getting herself horny or by cheerfully meeting your need through love if not horny).

Be bold (but tactful) and say just this.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

DDC said:


> Option #4 (if you're a man): Start acting like one, instead of being the passive, push-over wimp who she doesn't respect.


Agree. But, it must be stressed, only do this if you are ready to end the relationship over it (not a given if you have kids or sex is not as critical as other aspects of the relationship).

I did take a stand. As noted earlier, it certainly changes the dynamic and force her to sh!t or get off the pot, so to speak. But, you have no control over her reaction to your stance.

My ex did improve for a little bit, but eventually decided that being single was preferable to being a good wife. Moreover, because she never bought into the concept of good sex as her responsibility, I became the a-hole who drove her away with unreasonable and even abusive behavior. Unfortunately, this triggered the predictable revenge actions directed both against me and against our child.

It all worked out okay in the end. But, I had the internal persistence, resources, and quality of relationship with our child to fight through these issues. And, doing so took a toll.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

jaquen said:


> The fact that you're on here, the fact that your wife is responding to you in this way, the fact that the sex is in the toilet, is a sign post to other issues. If you ended up divorced it certainly would not be from a lack of sex. It would be from the issues that spawned the deterioration of your sex life.


This attitude presumes that the sex life is a manifestation of other "deeper" issues in the marriage, which in turn assumes that both spouses have a healthy sex drive that only needs the barest nurturing by the other person.

If you go through TAM, you will see many stories where one spouse does not have this level of drive. How many times have you seen "my spouse is great in every other way and if they did not have a higher drive than me things would be perfect"? How many more times do you see where a spouse simply refuses to even participate in a discussion or therapy?

I know from experience that sometimes sex is the issue. My ex was bitter, even after announcing she was leaving, about my sex drive. After she finally got honest with me, it was not "if you had done XYZ I would have wanted more". It was "the point of sex is not physical satisfaction" and "your let your sex drive ruin a good thing" and "I'm the woman and it's your job to do things my way". Trust me, it happens.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

River1977 said:


> In the meantime, I have to disagree with almost every assertion and assessment that has been made about women in this thread (and all the others like it) by you and others. For starters, it isn't that she does not care about you or your sexual needs. One thing I hate - absolutely abhor - is the suggestion and the mindset that women should just do it. That is what you and others think and feel, but it isn't nearly so simple if for no other reason than she is as much entitled to be the way the she is as you are. And, as someone else pointed out, we are the way we are - men and women both. Unfortunately, there exists this disparity.


But, you are so wrong, for one very simply reason that has nothing to do with what you said.

When two people get married, they agree to elevate their spouse's needs to a central place in their lives. Those people are entitled to feel the way they do. But marriage is a PROMISE to another person - one on which that other person relies to their own detriment. If you get married, you are promising your spouse that you will meet their need. By agreeing to marry you, your spouse is trusting you will meet his need, and it is morally reprehensible for you to fall short because "you don't feel like it".

Before you marry that person, look at him and ask yourself "can I feel good about having sex with him when things are busy at work, through the demands of parenthood, etc.?" If the answer is "no" (and, if a lady is honest, she will admit she knows the answer to that question before she marries him) then don't marry him - it's that simple. Once you do marry, his wants and needs matter as much as yours.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

CanadianGuy said:


> It still doesn't answer the question of why she was not trying to increase her drive when I was working on lower mine. If your saying that she couldn't care less about working on it because she wasn't attracted to me for the reasons you stated above she's had eight years to come around and the frequency and enthusiasm from her has become less and less. I even stopped initiating. I do tell her what she means to me. Not for sex but for who she really is. But is it really up to me all the time to rev her engine so to speak. Why can she not work on reving her own engine once and awhile?


Hey Canadian Guy,

My ex was exactly like River1977, so I know what she's trying to say - I just happen to disagree with her conclusions over the impact of male vs. female expectations on one's marriage. So, I'll fill in the understanding gap for you.

Understand that River1977 is not advocating a specific level of sex or accomodation of the husband. In fact, it's quite the opposite - she is suggesting that the level of sex be geared towards meeting the wife's sensibility. She says that she does not feel "used" by her husband, but does not assert that as a result she has lots of sex with him. It could be that they only go 1-2x per month.

So, a lady like River would assert that they guy should be okay with sex as the woman wants. If you are treating her well and she responds by opening up sexually, then everyone wins. But, if you treat her well and the sex is still bad, it might be you or it might be just the way she is - but you should roll with it.

Sex should be viewed as bestowed and not earned. If she, at the end of the day, keeps things cool in the bedroom, you could move on, but it's better that you get used to it because any relationship will get to this point eventually. The man needs to be the solid rock of love and provision regardless of how his wife behaves, because doing the 180 or leaving will prove you were using her. She might be with you out of fear or she might walk away, but she will feel her hand was forced and it will hurt her.

*Summary: if you push for sex and cannot happily accept low sexual satisfaction and be 100% committed, you are immature and not relationship material. Woman are relationship driven and may or may not see an increased sex drive having relationship satisfaction. Getting the sex you want is great but ultimately should be seen as a bonus and not as a "deal-breaker".*


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## mrcow (Jan 27, 2010)

River1977 said:


> I'm not trying to say you are at fault although I recognize it sounds that way. I'm only telling you how it goes for women. Being who you are and being the way you are is natural for you. It is also natural for your wife to be turned off by it. Therefore, "just do it" cannot work and is entirely disrespectful. My first husband was that way. I hated sex with him and avoided it every way I could come up with. I hated that he felt entitled. I hated that he groped me all the time. I hated that he couldn't look at me in bra and panties without trying to jump me. I hated that he couldn't simply hug me and say "I love you" and let that be that. I hated that seemingly the meer fact that I breathed made him horny. None of that had anything to do with me. It just happened to be that I was the one there.
> 
> There were no such feelings in subsequent relationships, including my current marriage, because none other made me feel that way. Love making has always been much more satisfying but long ceased to be with him. It wasn't that I didn't care about his needs. It was that I hated feeling objectified. How he made me feel took precedence over everything, including how I felt about him. I wanted to leave him, and I did. It reached the point that had he stopped doing those things and behaving that way would not have made any difference since I'd already lost respect for him because he didn't respect me.


I'm afraid I may be close to this. So, are you saying - that's it? Point of no return? Any chance to resolve this not involving breaking up?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> The "just do it" philosophy causes the resentment to start creeping in (for this LD spouse at least). It is basically like telling someone to "get over yourself, " and "your feelings don't matter." It also shows that you do not truly understand the LD perspective.


You know, I actually tend to agree with this.

The problem is that women who are LD generally will find a reason to be resentful even without the sexual pressure. For instance, I told my ex that we needed to find a better balance in the "give and take" dynamic. She was free to deny sex, but I needed to be equally free to deny as well.

Guess what? She was still resentful. I was not enough that I did not ask for sex, continued to pay the bills, and was an excellent father to our children. I was expected to be a doting husband regardless. I do know that many women are the same way.

So, my question is, how do you defend that? Why is it bad to tell a woman "just do it" but okay to tell exactly that to a man?

I think the missing piece here is that a man will develop resentment just the same as a woman will. We men are willing to delay our gratification in favor of our spouses. But, "delay" is not the same as "forego".

There is a misconception that a man can and should be a solid "giver" regardless of what he gets back. The truth is that a guy will wait a long time, but not indefinitely. If a woman looks at her husband and knows she cannot bring herself to give back what she receives, she should not ask.

IOW, if a man gives and gives and eventually has to ask "what about me", I agree that the woman may feel pressured and thus resentful. But, the problem here is not that the guy ramped up the pressure. The problem is that the woman let it get to the point that the guy had to make an issue of it in the first place.

When we meet someone, we know fairly early on whether that person could potentially be a special person in our lives - that special person for whom we would sacrifice to her his or her needs. Unless you can see yourself making those sacrifices, you should not be asking much of that person to begin with.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> I understand what you are saying. I do wonder, however, about the solution. What do you do when one partner simply does not physically crave sex? Is it not satisfying enough for the HD partner if the LD partner still enthusiastically has sex because they know it is important and that it strengthens the marriage?


Unfortunately, no it is not. My ex did that "at least I'm willing to have some sex with you" and it does not cut it.

What would be acceptable is a fair and balanced compromise for both frequency and activity. Something like "we will have sex 3x per week, and we will alternate taking charge of the encounter with the other partner cheerfully following the lead".

Similarly, the sentiment of "I would not do that for anyone" does not help matters either.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

River1977 said:


> You can turn your wife back on. You need to understand her and learn how. It mostly depends on you but doesn't ALL fall on your shoulders. As I and someone else said before, men and women need to understand each other and their differences. Your wife has to learn about you too and understand you. She needs to understand what sex means to you. She needs to feel that while wanting and needing sex is a hormonal response in men that she is the one you desire. Frankly, I'm not hearing much desire for her coming from you. All I hear from you is you want sex and you want it from her because you're married to her (_Repeat: that's what she is to you - convenience, available, easy access, close proximity, yours for the asking because you're married._ All that entitlement stuff that she loathes and you can't hide.) However, if she understood you from a love standpoint, if you can impress what she means to you, and if you could make her feel like you love her if you and she never had sex again, it would make a big difference in how she feels and how she views sex with you. Someone (I think Emerald) stated she WANTS to please her husband. I feel exactly the same way. I never said "no" or the "I have a headache" kind of thing to any man except my first husband (first marriage only lasted two years), not even when I wasn't in the mood. It is far easier for you to destroy her desire (as has apparently happened) than it is for her to restore it. By the same token, you can make her WANT to please you. By that same token again, you can increase her desire in that not only does she want to please you, but she will WANT you.
> 
> .


I think there is a lot of good advice in this paragraph. While you cannot always change a woman's physical drive, she can choose to "WANT" to please you. Even though I have climaxing issues and I don't have much physical desire to have sex, I chose to DESIRE my husband because I WANT to. Why do I want to? Because he's the most wonderful man I've ever met. He's been there for me through thick and thin. I know that he loves and admires me. He's my best friend, and I want to spend the rest of my life with him.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

DTO said:


> What would be acceptable is a fair and balanced compromise for both frequency and activity. Something like "we will have sex 3x per week, and we will alternate taking charge of the encounter with the other partner cheerfully following the lead".


How is that different from what I was saying? The scenario above is pretty much exactly what I had in mind. The scenario above is not contingent upon one partner _physically_ desiring sex. That is the point I was trying to make.


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

DTO said:


> You know, I actually tend to agree with this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can see your point. When you keep denying a man sex, he needs to just keep going through the motions ("just doing it") of being a good husband, father, and provider. I don't think this is fair either. 

I don't think EITHER partner should "just do it." This will lead to resentment on BOTH sides. In my mind, the solution is respect and commitment. Both partners need to respect each other's needs. If a wife doesn't feel like she can lovingly offer her husband sex one evening, he needs to respect that (without making her feel guilty). Does this mean that they postpone sex indefinitely? No. In my marriage, if I turn my husband down, I make sure to initiate in the near future when I am feeling more in the mood. I respect him enough to meet his needs.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

River1977 said:


> I haven't the mental fortitude or the patience to go back and count how many times I've expressed the importance of men and women learning and understanding each other. The first thing you need to learn is the meaning of unconditional love. Most people think it means you are supposed to love someone no matter what - no matter how they are and no matter what they do (or don't do as it were). But that's not what it means. Unconditional love means to love someone without expectations. You love them and do for them out of love because you love them without expecting anything in return. If you conduct your marriage expecting your wife's undying and ever-displayed gratitude, then you're in the wrong frame of mind. See there. I told you you need a new perspective.......and you need to understand your wife.


River, I think you are forgetting something here. And it is that LD spouses tend to be selfish. The LD spouse generally does not love unconditionally. You said earlier that LD people do not get how important sex is to their spouses; it rather seems that LD spouses do get it but choose to ignore it.

Also, you say that unconditional love means "you love them and do for them out of love... without expecting anything in return". The only thing is, that only works in a marriage if it is given both ways. If the LD spouse did the same, there would not be any problems. Why is it expected that the guy do this but the woman be free to refuse.

Also, I do agree with your disclaimers that (1) for the truly LD person there is little improvement to be had and (2) if your wife married you for reasons other than physical attraction you are spinning your wheels. I would go further, however. I don't think these should be disclaimers necessarily because I think these circumstances happen more than generally acknowledged.

Sure, there are instances where the husband has turned off the wife. But, if a study revealed that 50% of the marriages with protracted sex issues had either a true LD partner or was lacking the requisite level of attraction, I genuinely would not be surprised. In those cases, "just do it" is appropriate advice because nothing is worse than having a HD spouse chronically go without for reasons beyond his or her control.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> MWD,
> This is a theme that is well understood in healthy marriages with a high level of mutuality.
> 
> LD
> ...


Truth, pure and simple. This is almost exactly what happened to me. I was chosen for reason 1. The only thing I would note is that point (1) tends to moderate point (3). The LD might want to frequent reject and never initiate, but they are more afraid of getting to (1) - derailing the gravy train.

So, they will deviate from (3) and occassionally initiate and fail to reject. Unfortunately, the LD person does not see this as simply giving a little bit back for what they get and instead choose to see it as coercive, abusive, and let resentment fester.

Perversely enough, the LD person chooses to persist in the situation that creates the resentment fester.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

momtwo4 said:


> How is that different from what I was saying? The scenario above is pretty much exactly what I had in mind. The scenario above is not contingent upon one partner _physically_ desiring sex. That is the point I was trying to make.


My apologies. My take on your post was that you were expecting the HD person to make most of the concession.

If you are saying that the LD person needs to simply try to meet the HD spouse's need for frequency and variety, then I agree. Unfortunately, most LD spouses would not agree to this.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

The moral of the story is that more men should work harder, and search longer, to find the SimplyAmorous and That Girls of the world!

Problem solved!


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

If men only marry women because of sex, then why don't they just invest in blow up dolls or they can save even more money by getting a flesh light....?


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## momtwo4 (May 23, 2012)

DTO said:


> My apologies. My take on your post was that you were expecting the HD person to make most of the concession.
> 
> If you are saying that the LD person needs to simply try to meet the HD spouse's need for frequency and variety, then I agree. Unfortunately, most LD spouses would not agree to this.


That is exactly what I was saying.  I do disagree that "most" LD spouses are not willing to compromise with their spouses on sex. I know plenty of LD spouses (many of my close girlfriends for example) who might not physically want sex as much as their husbands, but still chose to have regular sex because they love and respect them.

I don't think it fair to lump LD spouses together as unwilling to compromise or respect the needs of their spouses. I'll admit that some are this way. But some HD spouses are unreasonable as well.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

anony2 said:


> If men only marry women because of sex, then why don't they just invest in blow up dolls or they can save even more money by getting a flesh light....?


In some instances that is preferable to a cold fish, selfish, LD wife, I'm sure.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

River1977 said:


> To expect a woman to do something to increase her sex drive means you expect her to "just do it." It doesn't mean anything else because she has no magic wand.


Interesting, because I don't see this at all. What I see is the OP wanting to see his wife take some affirmative steps to increase her sex drive or interest. That does not mean just do it, but rather show some effort to work on things. Something to show that she actually cares about the issue. To give a simplistic example, my wife's desire for me increases when she helps a bit on my projects around the house. So if we had these issues, her making an effort to help on those projects is a step to increase her drive. If she refused, that would frustrate me and make me question whether she really cares.



> You can turn your wife back on. You need to understand her and learn how. It mostly depends on you but doesn't ALL fall on your shoulders. As I and someone else said before, men and women need to understand each other and their differences. Your wife has to learn about you too and understand you. She needs to understand what sex means to you. She needs to feel that while wanting and needing sex is a hormonal response in men that she is the one you desire. Frankly, I'm not hearing much desire for her coming from you. All I hear from you is you want sex and you want it from her because you're married to her (_Repeat: that's what she is to you - convenience, available, easy access, close proximity, yours for the asking because you're married._ All that entitlement stuff that she loathes and you can't hide.) However, if she understood you from a love standpoint, if you can impress what she means to you, and if you could make her feel like you love her if you and she never had sex again, it would make a big difference in how she feels and how she views sex with you. Someone (I think Emerald) stated she WANTS to please her husband. I feel exactly the same way. I never said "no" or the "I have a headache" kind of thing to any man except my first husband (first marriage only lasted two years), not even when I wasn't in the mood. It is far easier for you to destroy her desire (as has apparently happened) than it is for her to restore it. By the same token, you can make her WANT to please you. By that same token again, you can increase her desire in that not only does she want to please you, but she will WANT you.


While these are good suggestions, there are a couple of real issues. Whether you intended to or not, it places all the blame and responsibility on the man (or at least the lower desire spouse). While certainly the LD spouse has the problem, so needs to adjust their approach, they should also be able to expect honesty from their spouse.

This advice also seems to suggest that the OP can change his spouse. The fact is that he can't. He can do all types of things to try and encourage her to change, but in the end it is up to her. She has to want to do this and nothing he can do can make her change is she does not want to. To suggest otherwise is really unfair to the OP.

That said, your points are useful, and the OP should take a step back to examine what things he has done that may have contributed. If you want him to do so, I would suggest toning down comments about his not being honest, or interpreting things such that his behavior is bad where hers is not. While it is good to offer those as points, attacking the OP is the quickest way to get him defensive.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

Someone wrote that LD spouses tend to me selfish.

WRONG. 

What a ridiculous generalization.

CG - you are a good husband & doing nothing really "wrong."

Low sexual desire is NOT a choice - do the research people.

Not reaching compromises to differences whatever they may be IS a choice.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi CanadianGuy ~

Sorry you are going through this - you are not alone. It's a common marital problem.



CanadianGuy said:


> I'm not a fan of "just do it" either.


"Just do it" only works when the person who is the one who has to "just do it" is fully on-board and engaged, or committed to the relationship. If they see themselves as having no problem, or the relationship as having no problem, then they may feel that they "just don't have to do it" because there is literally nothing "to do". 



CanadianGuy said:


> I worked on those thing so she would not feel objectified as she had indicated that to me. I ceased doing those acts of service etc about a year ago. I had begun the other program at least 8 years ago. I can appreciate every thing you are saying. It still doesn't answer the question of why she was not trying to increase her drive when I was working on lower mine. If your saying that she couldn't care less about working on it because she wasn't attracted to me for the reasons you stated above she's had eight years to come around and the frequency and enthusiasm from her has become less and less. I even stopped initiating. I do tell her what she means to me. Not for sex but for who she really is. But is it really up to me all the time to rev her engine so to speak.


See my response above. She perhaps wasn't doing things at the same time because she did not perceive them to be a problem that she had to work on. She may have the mindset that her drive is not a problem FOR HER, so therefore it does not need working on. She perceives that you are the one with the problem and need to work on it. It is the self-centered mindset - you know, the one that all of us intrinsically have and often have to struggle to overcome. She would have to get to the place where she realizes that her drive is not a problem for her, but is a problem FOR YOU... and that change in perspective has to come from within herself.

Ironically, ask yourself if it is the same mindset that you also have. Do you perceive your drive as not being a problem FOR YOU, but you do perceive hers as being the one with the problem that needs work? If so, then you will also have to undergo the same change in perspective and enlightenment where you realize that while your drive is not a problem for you, it is a problem FOR HER. It won't get better between the two or you until you BOTH have that bit of enlightenment, because once you get to that point you start to see ways to move forward in working together. 

If you have been struggling and toiling through this for 8 long years (or longer), then it is time to consider what kinds of serious actions can be done to move things forward due to the severity of the mis-match between you. At this point, it's really more than a sexual mis-match. It speaks of a foundational mis-match in the marriage and in your respective perspectives that has been eroded by both of you over time. Have you two considered counselling, together, and independently? Have you considered what your options are if your wife refuses to work on any of the issues with you? 

As well, how do you respond when she gets into a snit and throws one of her verbal whammies at you? Learning how to positively respond to those zingers can do a lot to change the dynamic - most especially within yourself - the one person you have any control over changing anyway. 



CanadianGuy said:


> Why can she not work on reving her own engine once and awhile? What I really want to know - Have any LD people found a way or are working on increasing their drive?


The only way that she will ever work on this is if SHE wants to. She has to be able to see her role in the marital drama that you have ongoing...if she gets to that point, then she would likely be willing to entertain the WHY. There can be any number of reasons why someone has a lower drive for sex - not all of them are bad or wrong - in some cases it can simply be one person's inability to physically/mentally keep up with someone who seems to spontaneously combust with little tinder - in others there may be medical issues or age issues or hormonal imbalance that are affecting things - and all of the relational stress and strain involved in two people who are ultimately not getting along very well helps to keep the cycle going as some people can have a hard time disengaging sex from all of the other crummy things that may be going on.

I hope that you will seriously consider getting some third-party professional help and guidance for your situation, if you haven't already. 

Best wishes.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jaquen said:


> The moral of the story is that more men should work harder, and search longer, to find the SimplyAmorous and That Girls of the world!
> 
> Problem solved!


Ha ha, That GIRL was always a sexual dynamo -that is what I get from her posts... ME... I used to be Repressed, husband even called me a "Nun" on occasion (joking around that is)...it was there lurking -but needed let out of the cage, my anger over missing those years fuels my fury on this forum sometimes. If I can inspire other women somehow to get in touch with that-earlier in thier marraiges, I would feel very good about it . I'm still enjoying my sexual awakening.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

River1977 said:


> SruceHub, this isn't the first time I've stated these things. I don't expect everyone reads every post on these boards, but I must be failing miserably because you guys aren't getting it LOL. Sorry about that, so I'll try to address your individual statements to perhaps explain myself a little better, at least where your specific statements are concerned. *I think you say something like men and women need to understand eachother then continue with a statement that the man (assuming the H is HD and W is LD) needs to understand what he is doing that is turning his wife off. That assumes it is his fault, that he does something.*
> 
> 
> It's not a convertible car where the feelings and reasons for the feelings are interchangeable. Either she feels objectified or she doesn't. Either she wants sex or she doesn't. Or, she doesn't want sex because she feels objectified. Not the other way around though because her feelings are not conjured by something that doesn't exist. Does that make any sense? Let me know. *I agree with you that being objectified is the reason or it isn't. My point was subtler - that maybe the LD person does not want sex, so feels objectified when the HD person does. Then the LD person uses feeling objectified as the reason, when in fact, feeling objectified is a symptom of the issue. *
> ...


I absolutly have no expectations of praise, gratitude, thanks or anything else from my wife, except her love and respect. I do not do anything for her with the expectation of receiving anything in return. I act to make her life happier and easier, because making her and the children happy (and well rounded) is 90% of what makes me happy. I think I would vomit if she said thanks for folding the laundry, now let me take care of you. Not feeling her love and affection for me is as bad as it gets.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

anony2 said:


> If men only marry women because of sex, then why don't they just invest in blow up dolls or they can save even more money by getting a flesh light....?


Most men understand love through their partners' willingness to sleep with them. When a W becomes less wanting to have sex with her H, he feels less loved. 

Sex is an implied feature of marriage though. Why would a person (male or female) agree to "forsake others" for a spouse if the spouse is not going to provide a fulsome sex life. This can be extrapolated to other areas than sex - all areas of emotional fulfillment and support.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

DTO said:


> But, you are so wrong, for one very simply reason that has nothing to do with what you said.
> 
> When two people get married, they agree to elevate their spouse's needs to a central place in their lives. Those people are entitled to feel the way they do. But marriage is a PROMISE to another person - one on which that other person relies to their own detriment. If you get married, you are promising your spouse that you will meet their need. By agreeing to marry you, your spouse is trusting you will meet his need, and it is morally reprehensible for you to fall short because "you don't feel like it".
> 
> Before you marry that person, look at him and ask yourself "can I feel good about having sex with him when things are busy at work, through the demands of parenthood, etc.?" If the answer is "no" (and, if a lady is honest, she will admit she knows the answer to that question before she marries him) then don't marry him - it's that simple. Once you do marry, his wants and needs matter as much as yours.


You make way too many assumptions for practically every person since the beginning of time. The "I have a headache" kind of thing didn't begin with your wife or the marriages talked about on these boards. It is age old, so you are wrong to think you know what marriage means and has always meant.

Despite what anyone thinks marriage is supposed to mean, it becomes whatever it is. Despite people's initial belief and intention, their marriage becomes whatever it becomes. What I have been saying is men and women are the way they are and respond to each other, mostly women respond to their man. Because they are very different emotionally and sexually, the responses often turn out negative because they don't understand each other.





DTO said:


> Hey Canadian Guy,
> 
> My ex was exactly like River1977, so I know what she's trying to say - I just happen to disagree with her conclusions over the impact of male vs. female expectations on one's marriage. So, I'll fill in the understanding gap for you.
> 
> ...


Your imagination runs wild. I said and neither implied any such things, but you very cleverly convince others that I somehow did or that somehow this is what I meant by what I stated. You are, however, the perfect example of everything I've been saying - that you turn your woman off.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Emerald said:


> Someone wrote that LD spouses tend to me selfish.
> 
> WRONG.
> 
> ...


I think people are trying to differentiate the difference between a willing, but naturally LD spouse, and a spouse who becomes LD because of resentment, selfishness, or the fact that they never were attracted to their spouse in the first place.

I think those are two totally different classes of people. It's the difference between one who can't, and one who won't.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

jaquen said:


> In some instances that is preferable to a cold fish, selfish, LD wife, I'm sure.


So if a woman marries a man for money, we call her a money grubbing...?...what do we call a man that marries a woman for sex?


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Okay wow, so many great replies. 

My OP was an inquiry to find out if any LD persons ( M or F ) had found any ways to increase their drive. Being born with it was never and issue. However Emerald had a good point about wether or not they were LD because of their partner or born LD. It was not my intention to make this post about my relationship, which is a shambles, but rather to see if others make an effort in this dept. and what they found that worked. I asked that because I felt that my spouse was not making an effort and wondered if other LD people did. This link was helpful. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/52388-musings-ld-perspective.html

As so many women have pointed out they are sure there is something that I could improve on. Perhaps I have being going about it all wrong. The issues are like layers of an onion. At this point if I tell her " I lover her" it's because I want sex. If I don't do things around the house it's because I am angry I have not been having sex. lol. That is frustrating. The old "house work" theory has raised it's ugly head. Do more and she would feel like sex more. How bout do me more and I'll feel like it more? lol. In my opinion that's hoop jumping and I'm done with that because it feels very manipulative. I have read a ton of relationship books. She has read none. As I also began my original post with the things I had been doing in the relationship to give her space I neglected to say that I had also stepped up several other actions like flowers, gifts to her, loving words, etc. When I say she did nothing I mean nothing, no trying to understand men, no books about relationships, no nothing. I might point out that she believed I was doing this all for more sex. She was objectifying herself. I was doing this to show her that I loved her and wanted to make her happy. It hasn't worked, things have gotten a lot worse as she believes everything I do is about sex. I just want a great marriage. It's getting ridiculous though and I considered leaving last night because it feels like it's a no win no matter what I do.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

River1977 said:


> You make way too many assumptions for practically every person since the beginning of time. The "I have a headache" kind of thing didn't begin with your wife or the marriages talked about on these boards. It is age old, so you are wrong to think you know what marriage means and has always meant.
> 
> Despite what anyone thinks marriage is supposed to mean, it becomes whatever it is. Despite people's initial belief and intention, their marriage becomes whatever it becomes. What I have been saying is men and women are the way they are and respond to each other, mostly women respond to their man. Because they are very different emotionally and sexually, the responses often turn out negative because they don't understand each other.
> 
> ...


River, again, you hit the nail on the head. This is what happened with us:

10 years into our marriage, husband is complaining of me not giving him enough sex, considers ME LD...

I have been considering HIM LD for 8 of those years because he called me a sex pest after sex one time and insinuated that I was insatiable. I felt that I had to turn off my HD because it was bothersome to him. 

Had it been up to me, we would have been having sex 2 - 3 times a day...BUT circumstances prevented it. One of those circumstances being that he stayed up all night playing video games and got up right before he went to work. We had ZERO time together. He was watching porn without me, this was a HUGE turn off for me because I felt that he was replacing doing it with me, by watching porn. 

Plus, there was something that I have wanted to do sexually SINCE we got married but he constantly told me how gross it was, so I have been stifling this desire. I know he did not MEAN to cause me to stifle this because he said this BEFORE he knew that was what I was into, but I have always felt if he knew my sexual side, he would think I was a ****. 

SO...after reading this thread, I turned it on and turned the tables on him. At first, he thought I was mad, then said that I was playing with him. He did not believe me....I showed him, told him my desires and let it all out. 

I have never seen my husband so turned on in my life, but now this vixon is out of the cage and he better hold on tight. 

Also, I had to explain to him that my sex drive is reactive, he needs to turn the buttons to turn the stove on, he needs to light my fire.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

anony2 said:


> So if a woman marries a man for money, we call her a money grubbing...?...what do we call a man that marries a woman for sex?


Too easy . . . dumb


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

anony2 said:


> So if a woman marries a man for money, we call her a money grubbing...?...what do we call a man that marries a woman for sex?


A man.

:rofl:

No, I kid. Where did you get from any responses in this thread that men marry only for sex?


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> Okay wow, so many great replies.
> 
> My OP was an inquiry to find out if any LD persons ( M or F ) had found any ways to increase their drive. Being born with it was never and issue. However Emerald had a good point about wether or not they were LD because of their partner or born LD. It was not my intention to make this post about my relationship, which is a shambles, but rather to see if others make an effort in this dept. and what they found that worked. I asked that because I felt that my spouse was not making an effort and wondered if other LD people did. This link was helpful. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/52388-musings-ld-perspective.html
> 
> As so many women have pointed out they are sure there is something that I could improve on. Perhaps I have being going about it all wrong. The issues are like layers of an onion. At this point if I tell her " I lover her" it's because I want sex. If I don't do things around the house it's because I am angry I have not been having sex. lol. That is frustrating. The old "house work" theory has raised it's ugly head. Do more and she would feel like sex more. How bout do me more and I'll feel like it more? lol. In my opinion that's hoop jumping and I'm done with that because it feels very manipulative. I have read a ton of relationship books. She has read none. As I also began my original post with the things I had been doing in the relationship to give her space I neglected to say that I had also stepped up several other actions like flowers, gifts to her, loving words, etc. When I say she did nothing I mean nothing, no trying to understand men, no books about relationships, no nothing. I might point out that she believed I was doing this all for more sex. She was objectifying herself. I was doing this to show her that I loved her and wanted to make her happy. It hasn't worked, things have gotten a lot worse as she believes everything I do is about sex. I just want a great marriage. It's getting ridiculous though and I considered leaving last night because it feels like it's a no win no matter what I do.


Frankly your wife doesn't sound like she's remotely in love, or attracted, to you. At this point you'd likely have an easier time getting a rock to rain. You continue to sow seeds into dead ground. At some point you will grow weary of trying to resurrect the dead, and will likely bury what has passed, and move on to what is still living.


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## anony2 (Apr 28, 2012)

jaquen said:


> A man.
> 
> :rofl:
> 
> No, I kid. Where did you get from any responses in this thread that men marry only for sex?


sorry, I did not mean to imply that was an answer to your post specifically. I was kinda making a joke about it.


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

anony2 said:


> sorry, I did not mean to imply that was an answer to your post specifically. I was kinda making a joke about it.


That's OK. It's easy to get intentions, and tone, crossed with the written word.

I just read your post before this one, and kudos to you for really taking control of your sagging sexual life and becoming a force to be reckoned with! I bet your husband didn't know what to say or do when you let the vixen out!

:smthumbup:


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

SprucHub said:


> Why would a person (male or female) agree to "forsake others" for a spouse if the spouse is not going to provide a fulsome sex life.


Perhaps humor is not appropriate given the dark mood in this thread, but I smiled when I read this sentence because the second meaning of "fulsome"--which is almost 180 degrees from the primary meaning--might describe what many of the men posting here are complaining about.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

anony2 said:


> 10 years into our marriage, husband is complaining of me not giving him enough sex, considers ME LD...
> 
> I have been considering HIM LD for 8 of those years because he called me a sex pest after sex one time and insinuated that I was insatiable. I felt that I had to turn off my HD because it was bothersome to him. .....


 Oh my ...you sound a little like us .. my BIG mouth telling him I thought all penis were "homely" in the past sure didn't do our sex life any favors.....he sure wasn't going to ask me to put my mouth there after that comment ! I've said some dousys in my time, but that takes the cake ! He thought I was LD (no wonder)... but here I was masterbating in the middle of the night thinking he'd rather sleep, he was always more tired than me. I WANTED him every time but only woke him up half the time. (he never knew)

Oh how freaking important sexual commuication is !!

When He learned I did that, gotta love this response...he says ''hell, that is like telling me the house is on fire, that's important!!"

:rofl: 

And due to his retarted passiveness, I guess I didn't feel all that darn desired...which wasn't flipping any of my switches. He read on the net to do more housework, oh what a Joke, that is not the way to MY libido. 

We never talked about sex, masterbation, I would have turned as RED as a lobster, I think that is the only thing I would have outright LIED about, too taboo. Now we yak about sex all the time. 



> SO...after reading this thread, I turned it on and turned the tables on him. At first, he thought I was mad, then said that I was playing with him. He did not believe me....I showed him, told him my desires and let it all out.
> 
> I have never seen my husband so turned on in my life, but now this vixon is out of the cage and he better hold on tight.


 Sounds like us ! Another cougar out of the cage ! Mine had to hold on for dear life !


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

DTO said:


> River, I think you are forgetting something here. And it is that LD spouses tend to be selfish. The LD spouse generally does not love unconditionally.


This is a very big problem I am having with you, DTO. You apply definition (and my words) to your own scenarios, rather than seeing the definition (and my words) as stated, which requires you to default out of context. I implore you to keep up with me because you are all over the place.

So what that LD spouses tend to be selfish. That has nothing to do with the meaning of unconditional love. What you are suggesting, and twisting my words to mean, is that LD drive spouses should just do it, but they are too selfish to be that considerate. But that was not my point, nor is it the meaning I expressed of unconditional love, which means very simply that what a person does is to be done without conditions - done without strings attached. There should be no expectation that your partner will or should reciprocate. Nothing you do should be done as a favor because favors are expected their own turn.

What you are saying is the LD spouse should love unconditionally (love no matter what) and give their HD partner sex on frequent basis, but they are too selfish to do that. This may be a good way for a LD spouse to feel, but it has nothing to do with unconditional love as it is unmistakably defined, which is not the way you apply the meaning.



DTO said:


> You said earlier that LD people do not get how important sex is to their spouses; it rather seems that LD spouses do get it but choose to ignore it.


No, they do not get it. I'm talking about women and never in this thread attempted to address or assess the mindset, the motivations, or the responses of LD men, so I am trying to bring you back in subject and context. Women.do.not.understand what sex means to men. A woman only knows he is hounding her, asking/begging frequently, pressuring her, pestering her, etc. That is what you are saying she chooses to ignore. All she knows is he WANTS sex, but doesn't mean she has any idea how important sex is to him. She has no idea what sex means to him. It doesn't make you right to keep making these assumptions just because it is the way things *appear* to you to be, not even by logical deduction or conclusion. Your assumptions are inaccurate and your conclusions are far-fetched. If you are also projecting your own (past or present) situation, then it is evident you don't/didn't understand your wife, and she surely doesn't/didn't understand you. You just assume(d) she does/did and you assume ignoring was the choice she made. Knowing you want sex is not the same as and not to be translated into knowing what sex means to you.



DTO said:


> Also, you say that unconditional love means "you love them and do for them out of love... without expecting anything in return". The only thing is, that only works in a marriage if it is given both ways. If the LD spouse did the same, there would not be any problems. Why is it expected that the guy do this but the woman be free to refuse.


Again, unconditional love means what you do for them is to be done out of love and not expect they will reciprocate like a favor. And again, the meaning is not to be applied to imply that they are supposed to do everything you want or that they are supposed to do everything you want when you want them to do it, nor does it mean they do everything you want because they love you. Yet again, when they do something, it should be done out of love and when you do something out of love, there are no strings attached. That's all. It applies to what a person does, whatever the deed that they do - having sex, doing the person's laundry, giving a backrub, sending flowers, cooking a meal.....whatever the deed you do because you love that person should be done without any expectations. 



DTO said:


> Also, I do agree with your disclaimers that (1) for the truly LD person there is little improvement to be had and (2) if your wife married you for reasons other than physical attraction you are spinning your wheels. I would go further, however. I don't think these should be disclaimers necessarily because I think these circumstances happen more than generally acknowledged.


I agree too that it happens and women never say. That is also the way we are wired. We don't say things like that because we don't want to hurt his feelings. It is more important to assume a posture and modicum of respect in that regard. I do understand that is not helpful, but what is helpful about reducing him to feeling worthless in bed? We don't want to bruise his ego in that manner.



DTO said:


> Sure, there are instances where the husband has turned off the wife. But, if a study revealed that 50% of the marriages with protracted sex issues had either a true LD partner or was lacking the requisite level of attraction, I genuinely would not be surprised. In those cases, "just do it" is appropriate advice because nothing is worse than having a HD spouse chronically go without for reasons beyond his or her control.


I am very tempted to agree with you but cannot entirely. I wouldn't be surprised either although I argue that 50% is a bit high and unfortunately have no stats to rely on. However, I completely disagree that "just do it" is ever a recommendation under any circumstances. Anyone who thinks a woman should "just do it" has no respect for women and thinks of her only as a vessel and receptacle. That is the epitome of the definition of *entitled* and takes *what sex means to men* way too far to assign her purpose and his superior importance. It proves again that men don't understand women and also proves that those who subscribe to your philosophy have zero respect for women.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I am sorry CG that your wife does not make more of an effort to love you in ALL ways. She hyper focuses on sex no matter what you don't/do & that is no way to live. Her refusal to get educated on what is a very severe marital problem speaks volumes.

I did not catch if you have children. If so, I never advise divorce unless there is abuse, addictions and/or cheating.

I will end my participation here in your thread with your original question:

Yes, as a person with very low sexual desire, I am "in love" with my husband, cherish & respect him & as such try to meet all of his sexual needs.

But keep in mind, he is also low drive & I would never be with a high drive person again. It doesn't work for me & them.

Good luck to you!


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

jaharthur said:


> Perhaps humor is not appropriate given the dark mood in this thread, but I smiled when I read this sentence because the second meaning of "fulsome"--which is almost 180 degrees from the primary meaning--might describe what many of the men posting here are complaining about.


Humor is always appreciated.

As for the dark mood, to lighten it I should say that I love my wife. She is beautiful, smart, funny but not intentionally so (the best kind), and a great mom. We see eye-to-eye about most everything important. She has taken a long time to empathize about my needs because she did not understand. But she is coming around. She (now) gives me meaningful kisses and hugs and snuggles with me at night.

She says dumb things sometimes because she hates to be wrong and is stubborn. But, then she comes around a few days later without admitting she was wrong, but changed in a good way. (I admit I am wrong all the time, sometimes when I am not.)

I am anti-confrontational, she is uber defensive, so communications are tougher than they should be. She's also very prudish and innocent (bordering on naive). Which makes talks about sex even harder.

Finally, she had aweful pregnancies, throwing up 10 times per day from week 1 into her 3rd trimester with our last 2 children. So, she is scared to death about getting pregnant again, which also colors things. Oh, she also has extreme emotional reactions to O's, which are draining.

So there is a lot working against sex and why I can say it is not the sex; I love her too much to risk a pregnancy or to get her to have an O if she is not relaxed enough. It is just that her withdrawing from me for so long and then treating me like I was selfish for feeling lonely and unloved, made me feel more unloved and then angry. I went to her with a problem and got my head bitten off.

This caused fights. My pet peeve, and she knows it and you all should adopt this too, is when people tell you how your feeling. This applies to when your W tells you you're in a bad mood or to when some numbskull tells you Obama's or Romney's internal motivations. 

So anyway, she continued (and sometimes continues) to say it is about sex (i.e., she is objectified), when that couldn't be farther from the truth. She'll soon realize this, won't admit she was wrong, but things will continue to get better.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

anony2 said:


> River, again, you hit the nail on the head. This is what happened with us:
> 
> 10 years into our marriage, husband is complaining of me not giving him enough sex, considers ME LD...
> 
> ...


You crack me up, Anony. This is sooo kewl!


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

River1977 said:


> I am very tempted to agree with you but cannot entirely. I wouldn't be surprised either although I argue that 50% is a bit high and unfortunately have no stats to rely on. However, I completely disagree that "just do it" is ever a recommendation under any circumstances. Anyone who thinks a woman should "just do it" has no respect for women and thinks of her only as a vessel and receptacle. That is the epitome of the definition of *entitled* and takes *what sex means to men* way too far to assign her purpose and his superior importance. It proves again that men don't understand women and also proves that those who subscribe to your philosophy have zero respect for women.


Two things - you seem to focus on "unconditional" but not "love". Love to me means you care at least as much about the other person's happiness as you do your own. Unconditional love to me means you love them regardless of how they treat you or what you get in return. An HD spouse questions not his own unconditional love, but rather his W's unconditional love for him. I.e., if she cared about my happiness, would she treat me this way. If you, River can grasp that sex is important to a man's happiness, why can other LD wives not - answer - because they do not want to or because they think they understand but do not. 

And re just do it. If a woman does not want to have sex, she should not. Period. She should also be contrite about breaking her marriage vows. Sex is not vaguely implied as a marriage vow - again, forsaking all others - what could that be about but a promise of sex (also, some states - NY - and Countries - France, view withholding sex as a cause for divorce). So, if a woman does not want sex for a prolonged period or will only do it infrequently, she should understand how much that is hurting her husband and also forgo the marriage benefits she might expect to recieve.


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## jaharthur (May 25, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Oh my ...you sound a little like us .. my BIG mouth telling him I thought all penis were "homely" in the past sure didn't do our sex life any favors.....


Well, let's be honest: they are homely. Or at least very strange looking. Nothing like the beautiful orchids you ladies offer.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

CanadianGuy, SpruceHub, all you guys, I have a question.

Have any of you ever asked your wife to read these boards? I think it will help.....a lot! in making your wife understand what sex means to you. It helped me a lot and I know it helped a lot of other women who read. Like I said, we never had a problem and I never told him "no," never rejected him - not in bed at night, not standing at the kitchen sink (which I especially like), and not at 4 in the morning (which I like even more). He never made me feel objectified or that he thought he was entitled, so there was no resentment on my part. At the same time though, I still never knew what it meant to him because again, I'm not in his head. So, with that understanding now, it means that much more to me for his sake and on his behalf (I think that makes sense). 

I'm not LD, or never considered myself to be anyways. I'm not entirely sure LD women exist in great numbers. As you've likely derived from my posts, I think women more often get turned off. It happened that way with me in my first marriage and an abusive relationship, and reading these boards of women's complaints (#1 complaint among women is how badly their husband treats them) verifies it. However, I'm not HD either. I'm not like SA where I have any particular desire or demand. I love it when he reaches for me. I love THAT he reaches for me. I love the WAY he reaches for me. Even though I'm not in the mood, sex wasn't on my mind, and there was no burning or yearning, he turns me on every time. 

I know how I always responded to him, so I don't know how to make you understand that I had no idea what it MEANT to him. And, I could not know how he would feel if I ever said "no." I've had to tell him "later" on occasion, but I never said "no" and kept my word for later. How could I know he would feel rejected? Women don't know these things. Even you telling her (because my first husband told me) doesn't have the same impact as reading it someplace like here. To her, you're still trying to get sex. And, I have to tell you that women don't take it seriously when you tell them. They don't take it as legitimate cause or reason. It doesn't make sense to them because they don't feel the same way, so they can't fathom it. Women need to understand how you are 

She doesn't have to know your moniker although I suppose she may recognize some of the relationship details you shared. Plus, you could always delete your own threads if need be. She'd have an opportunity to do all her complaining as well and get needed advice. Most importantly, she would learn a few things.

Come to think of it that makes me need to ask: Are you guys learning anything by being on these boards? Are you understanding your wife any better? Are you recognizing yourselves and your relationship in the complaints posted by women? I don't mean the ones where you commisserate about not getting enough sex. I mean the ones where other relationship difficulties are expressed.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

SprucHub said:


> Unconditional love to me means you love them regardless of how they treat you


Careful, SpruceHub, your fly is open.


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

jaharthur said:


> Well, let's be honest: they are homely. Or at least very strange looking.


Maybe, but beautiful!


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

River1977 said:


> CanadianGuy, SpruceHub, all you guys, I have a question.
> 
> Have any of you ever asked your wife to read these boards? I think it will help.....a lot! in making your wife understand what sex means to you. It helped me a lot and I know it helped a lot of other women who read. Like I said, we never had a problem and I never told him "no," never rejected him - not in bed at night, not standing at the kitchen sink (which I especially like), and not at 4 in the morning (which I like even more). He never made me feel objectified or that he thought he was entitled, so there was no resentment on my part. At the same time though, I still never knew what it meant to him because again, I'm not in his head. So, with that understanding now, it means that much more to me for his sake and on his behalf (I think that makes sense).
> 
> ...


Yes, I actually quoted a thread to her and the Sex Starved Marriage book. I do not know if she's been to this site, although I linked to it. That was months ago. Since I've been posting, I'd have to delete everything. Too many people have quoted what I've written. She'd be horrified.

I don't get the fly open bit?


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## River1977 (Oct 25, 2010)

SprucHub said:


> I don't get the fly open bit?


A fly conceals a private area that a person normally doesn't want revealed in public.

I explained more than once the meaning of unconditional love (it's not my definition, by the way but comes from the book, The Love Dare as at least one source), and you disputed me to tell me what you think it means.

There is something wrong and twisted, if not mental, about a man who thinks his wife is supposed to love him and give him sex no matter how he treats her. I'm not calling you names. I think, or rather hope, you were just coming up with something just to dispute me and didn't think about what you were saying, especially compared with the subject matter and other things I've said (on that note, I wonder why you neglected to answer the last part of my question). The fact is, there are men who think that way - men who treat their wives/girlfriends badly - men who treat their wives/girlfriends badly and complain about not getting sex. I keep saying most women respond to their man.

Another fact though is it applies to men on these boards (some? many? most?) but none confess it, too few anyway. It isn't possible statistically that it's the #1 complaint among women (on these boards, all the boards like it, and in real life) but none of those types of men ever made their way to TAM. Most of them are busy complaining about no sex (as I said, women respond to their man) and telling women like me how wrong we are. I'm happy to be informed I don't know myself, I don't know generally how other women are, and the fact that women and men don't understand each other is just my imagination. The guys on here know us so much better and have all the answers.....while they complain about not getting sex.....rather than listening and learning (on that note, I wonder again why you neglected the last part of my question). What a convoluted mess. 

In practically every single post by women complaining of how badly her husband/boyfriend treats them, it is without fail that "he doesn't listen to me" and/or "I tell him how he makes me feel, but he says he doesn't" and/or "he always tells me I'm wrong" and the like are part of the complaint. And that is what happened throughout this thread. Okay. I'm wrong. You guys are right, as usual.

The few who do confess it come here for advice to get her back when she finally grows sick of him and fed up (sigh). They suddenly want to straighten up and treat her better, but usually it's just too late and she's long gone mentally and emotionally and is physically on her way out the door.

What is it you've been concealing and not telling us that your definition of unconditional love let slip out?

Never mind. Don't answer. LOL


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

River1977 said:


> A fly conceals a private area that a person normally doesn't want revealed in public.
> 
> I explained more than once the meaning of unconditional love (it's not my definition, by the way but comes from the book, The Love Dare as at least one source), and you disputed me to tell me what you think it means.
> 
> ...


Actually - I believe in my definition of unconditional love and do not think it applies between a wife and husband. Only between parent and child and only in that direction. 

I think what you are describing is "giving out of love". One does not give in order to receive - that is bartering or lending or manipulating. 

I think neither a W nor H has to live up to his marital obligations - emotional, financial, physical support - if his/her spouse is abusive or unwilling to meet his/her similar obligations. 

My frame of reference is my W saying she is perfectly happy in our relationship and does not understand how I am not. I have a constitutional inability to be mean or to hold a grudge. If my W were here, I am pretty sure she'd have some less than flattering things to say about me, but her answer to how I treated her would be immensely flattering.

Many people in these forums say they have not been great husbands or not great guys or partially or fully to blame for their relationship problems. I will readily admit that my and her inability to communicate contribute. But I doubt too many people who post here are abusive or a**holes. It requires introspection to write about your feelings.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Alot of talk about *UNconditional Love *on here... Personaly I am not a proponet of it --that line of thinking has never sat well with me -- We are all "conditional" in marriage.... I did a thread on it once >>

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ve-unconditional-love-what-does-mean-you.html


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Objectification theory and 'Objectification' have fairly specific meanings in psychology. Objectification theory "..posits that girls and women are typically acculturated to internalize an observer's perspective as a primary view of their physical selves." (Fredrickson and Roberts, 1997) This can in turn lead to an array of mental health risks that disproportionately affect women, like unipolar depression and eating disorders.

As the term is used in everyday speech, (And on this thread) it strikes me more as a synonym for feeling, 'used' or, 'taken for granted' or perhaps even as a foil for someone else's selfish pleasure (?) 

I would submit that this definition is neither gender nor situationally specific. It is in fact how HD partners may feel themselves, so one would suppose that there is at least the potential for both partners to empathize with each other on this.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jaharthur said:


> Well, let's be honest: they are homely. Or at least very strange looking.


Well I pretty near "worship" the darn thing now, so it is quite humorous for us to look back & :rofl: about this .... I did hurt him though..(I had no idea!)...when I asked him a few yrs ago why the heck he didn't try harder to get me to do BJ's...Spice some things up.... he quickly reminded me of that assinine comment... Damn, I wish I had tape on my mouth that day!


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## wifenumber2 (Jul 29, 2011)

I'm LD 50YO married for second time for 10 years. I love my husband. His drive seems to have increased and I would be cool with that if I didn't feel that all sex must be kinky. He talks about wanting to see me with another woman from the time we wake up at 5:30AM and when we go to sleep. It makes me uncomfortable and I've told him so. 

Do you make statements like this to your wife? Does she tell you what she wants? This may be just me but sex to me is an offshoot of intimacy and love. If she does not feel intimacy outside of the bedroom it may be a factor in the bedroom. I do not know the whole story so this is merely my two cents. Good luck!


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

wifenumber2 said:


> I'm LD 50YO married for second time for 10 years. I love my husband. His drive seems to have increased and I would be cool with that if I didn't feel that all sex must be kinky. He talks about wanting to see me with another woman from the time we wake up at 5:30AM and when we go to sleep. It makes me uncomfortable and I've told him so.
> 
> Do you make statements like this to your wife? Does she tell you what she wants? This may be just me but sex to me is an offshoot of intimacy and love. If she does not feel intimacy outside of the bedroom it may be a factor in the bedroom. I do not know the whole story so this is merely my two cents. Good luck!


Very good point about intimacy outside the bedroom. It would make me uncomfortable too if my SO was unable to let go of a fantasy like that and was after me for it morning till night. Do you feel objectified by his constant asking? I do not make statements like this to my wife.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

River1977 said:


> A fly conceals a private area that a person normally doesn't want revealed in public.
> 
> I explained more than once the meaning of unconditional love (it's not my definition, by the way but comes from the book, The Love Dare as at least one source), and you disputed me to tell me what you think it means.
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, I agree with you River.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

deejov said:


> For what it's worth, I agree with you River.


I'm mostly speaking into the air here, but I'm curious if the distaff corollary to that thinking would be equally palatable?

To flesh that out a bit; there are a goodly number of women here on this forum whose husbands have cut them off sexually and they seem every bit as hurt and upset about it as the frustrated men on TAM are.

How do we treat these ladies? Do we point out that a very common reason why husbands withdraw sexually and go off into their own little worlds of hobbies, sports, video games, etc., is because their wives have developed a demeanor that would make a steel rod shrivel and droop? Do we say that it's "statistically unlikely" that they are not simply hiding a shrewish facet of their personality that would kill an erection faster than one of Meryl Streep's less likable screen characters? Do we incorporate that notion into an interrogative fallacy via the assertion that too few of these ladies actually come clean and confess it? 

Of course not. That would be grossly unfair. Every single one of these ladies seems genuinely nice, sincerely concerned and more than willing to do anything and everything within their power to fix the problem despite the fact that by any objective standard, they are actually the aggrieved party.

TAM is not a random cross-section of the population at large. One major component of the TAM demographic is people whose spouses are misbehaving in some way. It is therefore an inherently unrepresentative sampling of the population for the simple reason that misbehaving spouses either don't typically care enough about the objectionable nature of their behavior (Else they would change) or are simply unaware of it. They are therefore far less likely to come to a relationship/advice forum in an attempt to fix things than their aggrieved spouse would be. 

It is therefore entirely possible in this demographically atypical environment for female complaints of sexually unresponsive husbands to be statistically uncoupled from male complaints (Both here and elsewhere) of disagreeable, nagging, fault-finding wives who treat them poorly.

A man can withdraw from his wife sexually and the reasons can have nothing directly to do with her at all. Those reasons might be medical; they might me psychological; the man might just be selfish and lazy. 

And by the same token, it is entirely possible in this demographically atypical environment for male complaints of sexually unresponsive wives to be statistically uncoupled from female complaints (Both here and elsewhere) of thoughtless, groping, unaffectionate, uncommunicative husbands who treat them poorly. 

A woman can withdraw from her husband sexually and the reasons can have nothing directly to do with him at all. I know from personal experience that postpartum coolness can take years and years and years to work through and is not really anybody's fault. 

There are snarky comments now and then, (This is the internet after all...) but generally people deserve the benefit of the doubt, especially if they seem to have done some prior leg work on their own, like reading a few of the excellent books on the differences between the male and female perspectives on sex and love that are recommended here.

I'm not saying any of this to excuse bad behavior when and if it exists. I'm saying this in the interest of fairness to everyone.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> I'm mostly speaking into the air here, but I'm curious if the distaff corollary to that thinking would be equally palatable?
> 
> To flesh that out a bit; there are a goodly number of women here on this forum whose husbands have cut them off sexually and they seem every bit as hurt and upset about it as the frustrated men on TAM are.
> 
> ...



Very well said. I think. Some of it was over my head.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

River1977 said:


> There is something wrong and twisted, if not mental, about a man who thinks his wife is supposed to love him and give him sex no matter how he treats her. I'm not calling you names. I think, or rather hope, you were just coming up with something just to dispute me and didn't think about what you were saying, especially compared with the subject matter and other things I've said (on that note, I wonder why you neglected to answer the last part of my question). The fact is, there are men who think that way - men who treat their wives/girlfriends badly - men who treat their wives/girlfriends badly and complain about not getting sex. I keep saying most women respond to their man.
> 
> Another fact though is it applies to men on these boards (some? many? most?) but none confess it, too few anyway. It isn't possible statistically that it's the #1 complaint among women (on these boards, all the boards like it, and in real life) but none of those types of men ever made their way to TAM. Most of them are busy complaining about no sex (as I said, women respond to their man) and telling women like me how wrong we are. I'm happy to be informed I don't know myself, I don't know generally how other women are, and the fact that women and men don't understand each other is just my imagination. The guys on here know us so much better and have all the answers.....while they complain about not getting sex.....rather than listening and learning (on that note, I wonder again why you neglected the last part of my question). What a convoluted mess.


Again, for all the truth that may be contained here, why does it *all* fall on the man? Many of the men who I see post are earnestly trying to meet their wife's needs, even if they as men are not perfect. Yet many perceive a wife that is only willing to have sex if everything is perfect. So yes, a man needs to treat his wife well. At the same turn, a wife needs to realize that her man is not perfect, nor expect that from him.

A wife also needs to do her part. That may include doing her own reading to try and understand her husbands view point. Marriage is an interactive sport. Both sides need to work to make it better. Whether intentional or not, your posts place the women in a inactive role, sitting back and waiting for the man to guess right, with no responsibility to even communicate or try. For as much wisdom as you offer to men on how women may think (and I do believe there is much there), your instance on placing the entire burden on the husband will diminish the effect of your message.

I have been a big proponent of telling posters that because they are here, they need to work on themselves. I can't give advice to someone that is not posting here. But as they do that, they need to hold their partner accountable. If their partner is making an effort, even if inafffective, that needs to be encouraged. But if no effort is being made, then the spouse (wife in this case) is not off the hook.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

" The fact is, there are men who think that way - men who treat their wives/girlfriends badly - men who treat their wives/girlfriends badly and complain about not getting sex"

While this is true, don't you think this cuts BOTH ways? Haven't you seen posts here where WOMEN have the SAME complaints?

It really amazes me how you can come on these forums and start to spew your one-sided view about how all men are worthless users.

"Another fact though is it applies to men on these boards (some? many? most?) but none confess it, too few anyway. It isn't possible statistically that it's the #1 complaint among women (on these boards, all the boards like it, and in real life) but none of those types of men ever made their way to TAM. Most of them are busy complaining about no sex (as I said, women respond to their man) and telling women like me how wrong we are"

Wow. That's quite a big chip you have on your shoulder. I hope you don't get a hernia carrying it around!


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

River1977 said:


> A fly conceals a private area that a person normally doesn't want revealed in public.
> 
> I explained more than once the meaning of unconditional love (it's not my definition, by the way but comes from the book, The Love Dare as at least one source), and you disputed me to tell me what you think it means.
> 
> ...


I am going to go a step further and say most men on these boards that are simply complaining about Ld/HD issues are likely at least partially upset because they objectively treat their spouses so well. They do listen and do not demean. I assume it makes the implied/express rejection so much more hurtful when one feels they have done all that they could/should be expected to. 

Your answers assume, maybe rightfully so, men are turning off their spouses by objectifying them or otherwise. But, you keep assuming it is because the man is not picking up on something or doing something. It really assumes men are stupid to say that a man upset with the lack of intimacy with his wife hasn't picked up on her saying something that would improve that (e.g., you need to groom better, listen more, stop groping . . .). Maybe it is the W that needs to figure out what is causing the repulsion. In the UK32f thread, she seems to say it is more or less innate and not a product of what her H does/did.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Spruce,

River is just content to paint all men as evil. Her approach to dealing with male posters is one of attack. attack, attack. 

As in the past, I am hoping that someone at TAM is reading her posts and evaluating whether or not she should even be here posting

One can only hope


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Alot of talk about *UNconditional Love *on here... Personaly I am not a proponet of it --that line of thinking has never sat well with me -- We are all "conditional" in marriage.... I did a thread on it once >>
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ve-unconditional-love-what-does-mean-you.html


Since your unconditional love thread is stale, I'll add to it something - I wonder if this is odd - I do not have the capacity to hate. Mild dislike - and only temporarily.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

Toffer said:


> Spruce,
> 
> River is just content to paint all men as evil. Her approach to dealing with male posters is one of attack. attack, attack.
> 
> ...


Toffer - I like what she says and part of it is spot on. I take it too personally, particularly when she is wrong about something like how well I treat my W, but all in all I see it as helpful. I think her tendency to blame the man is pretty apparent and to be taken with a grain of salt.

That is why I try to challenge her - e.g., she says many W need to understand how important sex is to their H. But then lays the blame down on the H's - they turn off their W. I think if a W understands how important sex is to the relationship but still says no, it is the W's responsibility for determining what is causing her reluctance. If she has not voiced discontentment with something that is straining the marriage/relationship, for her to not understand how the rejection of sex is internalized by the H as a rejection of the H is willful neglect.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

Spruce,

I told her in another post today that I too feel that she has valid points that the OPs need to consider but often times they are either bracketed with attacks or are couched in such a way as they come off as an attack.

I think that her posts often chase posters away because the majority of her posts are anti-men.

Even when she responds to women's posts, she almost inevitably turns it back to the issue being the issue with the men.

I'd really love to know her story and how she wound up here at TAM


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

The question in the OP was meant for either sex. Although it may have sounded that it was directed at females because I rambled on a bit after the initial question. I was merely pointing out that as a couple we had defined myself as HD and her as LD although my efforts to tone it down a bit seemed worthless as she made no effort to ramp it up. ( As I stated before she believes I am the one with the problem not her ) I believe that the relationship suffers because of it. Which is true. It does and has. If I am to act in a manner that she "responds to" ( RIVER) then I must have missed the mark. But again she makes no effort because she does not feel that creating happiness in the relationship is important to her because she it happy where things stand.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

As much as I try to understand how an LD person married to an HD person thinks, I just cannot get past the feeling that the LD person holds the key to allow the HD person feel loved, wanted and happy, but just does not feel like using it. I do not understand, whether it's sex, a backrub, having a conversation, making dinner, picking a thoughtful present, or just being there - having the gift of knowing what makes your spouse feel loved and happy is for me like a magic spell in a fairy tale. What more can we really want in life than the love of the person we love? With that safety net, everything else is relatively small. Why would you not use it, unless you really just don't care that much about your spouse's happiness (i.e., you do not really love the person). If (reasonable) sex is so objectionable, you are not in love. If you cannot stand an hour of conversation a few days a week, you are not in love. If playing a video game is more rewarding than rubbing her feet, you are not in love. If old resentments (as distinct from fresh wounds) are preventing you from demonstrating your love, you are putting your pride before your marriage and acting as an individual not as a couple.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

CanadianGuy said:


> The question in the OP was meant for either sex. Although it may have sounded that it was directed at females because I rambled on a bit after the initial question. I was merely pointing out that as a couple we had defined myself as HD and her as LD although my efforts to tone it down a bit seemed worthless as she made no effort to ramp it up. ( As I stated before she believes I am the one with the problem not her ) I believe that the relationship suffers because of it. Which is true. It does and has. If I am to act in a manner that she "responds to" ( RIVER) then I must have missed the mark. But again she makes no effort because she does not feel that creating happiness in the relationship is important to her because she it happy where things stand.


Canada Guy - I have thought about this. In my situation, I affirmatively act to make her happy (purely out of love). But, there is only so long I can live without feeling her love. Because I would never break up my family, if push came to shove I would just stop. I would draw up a list of our individual obligations and a budget and cease doing anything other than what could be reasonably expected of a coparent and responsible roomate. Not out of spite - but rather out of survival - and to prepare for the future. At some point the relationship must be a two way street, even if it is 4 lanes in one direction and one lane in the other. If her lane stays closed too long, I have no choice but to put up some cones and divert traffic the other way on one (or more) of my lanes.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Arguments about money are never about money. They're about power and control. Arguments about sex are close to the same thing.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> *SprucHub said*: I am going to go a step further and say most men on these boards that are simply complaining about Ld/HD issues are likely at least partially upset because they objectively treat their spouses so well. They do listen and do not demean. I assume it makes the implied/express rejection so much more hurtful when one feels they have done all that they could/should be expected to.


I know our situation is not much to compare here, but when our libidos were mismatched & his was higher & he was the "suffering" partner .... (even though I wasn't aware of the depth of that "suffering").... it had nothing at all to do with anything he was doing wrong or even a hint of bad treatment towards me, he was always amazing... (a little bit of nice guy going on there but I had zero complaints)....

If anyone was SELFISH in our marriage, *it was ME*... doing my own thing and well... just not thinking about him. Busying myself where *I* wanted to be. 

So in this way... I can never believe that every situation, or near every man is doing something wrong & this is why his wife has near 0 drive or pushing him away at every turn. I pushed mine away too -out of stupidity for being grouchy over other things in our life at the time -that had nothing to do with him, he was always the healing balm to it all -going through it!

I know the greatest of men exist and would even stay , love & do anything to please us...way beyond what they ought .....given the circumstances, love abounding.... How they do this- I don't know if I can ever understand though. 

I will never believe that "low drive" wives "get it " -since I had no clue myself... even being decent drive. In my mind, it was like .... this is how I feel, so that must be how he feels-regardless of him expressing he wanted more... not that I really entertained the thought much....back then.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Emerald said:


> Someone wrote that LD spouses tend to me selfish.
> 
> WRONG.
> 
> ...


I wrote that, and stand by it.

If I look at the totality of the posts I've seen here and on other sites regarding an LD spouse, the LD spouses (both men and women) who ignore their spouses' needs far outnumber those who compromise.

You are correct that not compromising is a choice. And, most LD spouses seem to make the choice to give minimally, if at all. It is on the basis of that observation that I made my statement.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

River1977 said:


> You make way too many assumptions for practically every person since the beginning of time. The "I have a headache" kind of thing didn't begin with your wife or the marriages talked about on these boards. It is age old, so you are wrong to think you know what marriage means and has always meant.
> 
> Despite what anyone thinks marriage is supposed to mean, it becomes whatever it is. Despite people's initial belief and intention, their marriage becomes whatever it becomes. What I have been saying is men and women are the way they are and respond to each other, mostly women respond to their man. Because they are very different emotionally and sexually, the responses often turn out negative because they don't understand each other.
> 
> Your imagination runs wild. I said and neither implied any such things, but you very cleverly convince others that I somehow did or that somehow this is what I meant by what I stated. You are, however, the perfect example of everything I've been saying - that you turn your woman off.


Well, to handle the easy issue first...

No, I do not turn my women off. My _ex-wife_ - by her own admission - was never really into me. Rather, she was looking for someone to provide for her and any kids she wanted. She knew that admitting that to me would have caused me to reject her marriage proposal (yeah, she proposed to me). So, she lied and put up a good front, then never followed through - not even on the honeymoon. I've never had sexual problems with any other relationship partner.

And, I do agree that marriages become what they become. I assert that is exactly the problem. Marriages always hit rough spots and trying times. In such times, it is the commitment and promises that will pull a marriage through. And, IMO part of that promise and commitment is sex.

I genuinely see nothing wrong with insisting that my needs and wants be respected as long as there is an extant relationship. I recognize that I need to push myself to provide what the other person values through the rough patches, and expect the same in return. Ultimately, I think that is where our perspectives differ. You don't agree that a woman should put out under those circumstances, and I say it comes with the territory.

As far as the rest of your post, I can only go off of whatever you have written before. Your posts, as a whole, give off a strong vibe as being from a person who feels that sex is not a part of the marriage commitment. I never said you stated or implied those things, but I have BTDT too many times to not know how it goes. At the end of the day, when you cut through all the verbiage, I see a person that is okay not providing sex citing lack of desire as a reason. But, if someone (say, your ex H) said he was not going to provide XYZ to you because he did not feel like it, you likely would be angry and insulted - from a perspective that sex is not subject to the same give and take. Of course, if I have misinterpreted you I apologize.

One caveat: I am not one of those guys who feels sex is not worthwhile if my partner is not absolutely on fire on it for herself. I would certainly prefer she does lust for me and would like to be pursued and such. However, if my ex had come to me and said "I simply do not have that level of drive but will provide a cheerfully provide a wonderful experience for you because you have been great to me and this family" I would have happily accepted.

ETA: One more thing that will help you understand me: The level of sex my ex viewed as her optimum was still really, really bad. She essentially gave me a choice between having bad sex or no sex.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

River1977 said:


> No, they do not get it. I'm talking about women and never in this thread attempted to address or assess the mindset, the motivations, or the responses of LD men, so I am trying to bring you back in subject and context. Women.do.not.understand what sex means to men. A woman only knows he is hounding her, asking/begging frequently, pressuring her, pestering her, etc. That is what you are saying she chooses to ignore. All she knows is he WANTS sex, but doesn't mean she has any idea how important sex is to him. She has no idea what sex means to him. It doesn't make you right to keep making these assumptions just because it is the way things *appear* to you to be, not even by logical deduction or conclusion. Your assumptions are inaccurate and your conclusions are far-fetched. If you are also projecting your own (past or present) situation, then it is evident you don't/didn't understand your wife, and she surely doesn't/didn't understand you. You just assume(d) she does/did and you assume ignoring was the choice she made. Knowing you want sex is not the same as and not to be translated into knowing what sex means to you.
> 
> Again, unconditional love means what you do for them is to be done out of love and not expect they will reciprocate like a favor. And again, the meaning is not to be applied to imply that they are supposed to do everything you want or that they are supposed to do everything you want when you want them to do it, nor does it mean they do everything you want because they love you. Yet again, when they do something, it should be done out of love and when you do something out of love, there are no strings attached. That's all. It applies to what a person does, whatever the deed that they do - having sex, doing the person's laundry, giving a backrub, sending flowers, cooking a meal.....whatever the deed you do because you love that person should be done without any expectations.
> 
> ...


I totally get what you are saying about the issues of knowing I want sex vs. knowing what it means to me. My point is that none of that really matters. If my ex tells me it makes her feel good to have me tackle her share of the chores so she can relax a bit, or to send her flowers, or whatever; I don't compare her statement to my values. I simply take what she says at face value and do what she says makes her feel loved and valued. By the same token, if I say sex is important to me, it is not up to her to say "well, it's not to me so I am not going to stretch myself to provide it for you".

Also, in my situation I assumed nothing about my ex's reasons. She told me directly what they were. I do keep in mind that my situation is not everyone's and always intend for my advice to be taken if appropriate. But, sometimes the similarities of the issues I see to my own are too strong to ignore.

Also, I get what you are saying about unconditional love. The problem is that I just happen to be in the camp of "love is an act". I am having a hard time explaining it much clearer than that at the moment, except to say that at some level if that "unconditional love" driven service drops really low, you have to doubt the relationship.

As far as women flat out telling men that there is zero attraction, there is a very good reason to come correct with that bit of knowledge. It gives the man the option of moving on with his life. If my ex tells me she never wanted me, I can act accordingly. But, any lie, no matter how intentioned, is still a lie. I (and any other well-adjusted dude) would rather she be a good ender and stop wasting my time.

And, finally, I do understand your instinctual aversion to the "just do it" mentality. But, I don't think it's particularly helpful. I don't see anything wrong with "gratitude" sex where the woman knows the man deserves it and is not willing to let her lack of desire interfere with the relationship.

Lots of women recognize that not providing sex will end their marriages. If you get a woman that says "there is nothing wrong with him, but I'm just not attracted, and if the sex is bad I know he will leave", how would you advise her?


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

SprucHub said:


> And re just do it. If a woman does not want to have sex, she should not. Period. She should also be contrite about breaking her marriage vows. Sex is not vaguely implied as a marriage vow - again, forsaking all others - what could that be about but a promise of sex (also, some states - NY - and Countries - France, view withholding sex as a cause for divorce). So, if a woman does not want sex for a prolonged period or will only do it infrequently, she should understand how much that is hurting her husband and also forgo the marriage benefits she might expect to recieve.


I agree completely. And this is exactly my point - forgoing the marital benefit will never happen. I have never - not once - seen or read a situation where the woman says "I will not fulfill your sexual need but in return do not expect you to do XYZ for me either". It's as if women expect their bodies to count for more - that is what I fight against.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

River1977 said:


> CanadianGuy, SpruceHub, all you guys, I have a question.
> 
> Have any of you ever asked your wife to read these boards?


Yup, I sure did way before she moved out (this was another board on which I participated at the time).

She absolutely refused.

I will repeat that I understand the range of womanly viewpoints on sex extremely well. I understand that it's attached to the emotional and wanting them instead of just sex, etc. I do find these boards informative which is why I continue to read here.

The only issue I had with my ex is my boundaries regarding what kind of sex life I needed. I recognized, as noted earlier, that her sexual response is ultimately out of my control. I can create an environment conducive to having good sex, but I cannot directly cause her to want it. I insisted she take responsibility for working out her phobias and such, which infuriated her.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I know our situation is not much to compare here, but when our libidos were mismatched & his was higher & he was the "suffering" partner .... (even though I wasn't aware of the depth of that "suffering").... it had nothing at all to do with anything he was doing wrong or even a hint of bad treatment towards me, he was always amazing... (a little bit of nice guy going on there but I had zero complaints)....
> 
> If anyone was SELFISH in our marriage, *it was ME*... doing my own thing and well... just not thinking about him. Busying myself where *I* wanted to be.
> 
> ...


Simply,

Thank you for this post. I wonder if River even bothered to read it!

Can I send you my wife's cell phone number and could you give her a call and explain it to her? (jk)


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## ukv (Jul 6, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I know our situation is not much to compare here, but when our libidos were mismatched & his was higher & he was the "suffering" partner .... (even though I wasn't aware of the depth of that "suffering").... it had nothing at all to do with anything he was doing wrong or even a hint of bad treatment towards me, he was always amazing... (a little bit of nice guy going on there but I had zero complaints)....
> 
> If anyone was SELFISH in our marriage, *it was ME*... doing my own thing and well... just not thinking about him. Busying myself where *I* wanted to be.
> 
> ...


Oh I love you for this. I would give my life to hear things like those from my wife. I am living in self pity.... To justify her aversion to sex or her LD my wife seems to just create excuses and blames me for things which are beyond my control.

I have been sacrificing everything for my family i.e. kids and wife for the last 10 years. from now on I will live mostly for myself and also for the kids... because last 10 years have only given me rejection and blame - for being selfless and thinking about the family and future needs. So I have secured the future but I ruined my present and the past.... difficult but its true ... too late to now realise.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Toffer said:


> Simply,
> 
> Thank you for this post. I wonder if River even bothered to read it!
> 
> Can I send you my wife's cell phone number and could you give her a call and explain it to her? (jk)


It seems River is Banned! Anyone know what happened there?? 

I would talk to anyone.... I have a passion for this subject, I believe it is born out of my own pathetic regrets ....coming into the realization of how I never meant to hurt my husband like that....BUT yet I still DID.... he didn't deserve it for a moment. I still can tear up - just thinking about it. He gets  at me sometimes... tells me it's "water under the bridge". 

Sawney Beane, at my leading ...did a thread once on dissecting the mindset of the LD woman...where would you say your wives fall within these 5 examples :

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/39526-five-cases-refusal-what-really-means-refused.html

Depending -could spell whether there is a chance of HOPE or it is lost forever... 

Then there is the prospect...as women get older, they may see these sexual tables turn on them, where they want MORE than their husbands, most do not realize this can happen (I sure didn't!)-- at that point our husbands can be so angry & filled with resentment, she will be lucky he wants to touch her. What a sweet revenge it would be -when you think about it !! 

For each season in our marriages...beings our PRIMES are so OFF....(men in their early 20's -women in their late 30's- early 40's)... How utterly important to BE THERE, to engage, to love enough to give this pleasure...a "his pleasure is my pleasure" attitude within.... not deny.... find a way....find that inspiration if you have to climb a damn mountain to do it ! To appreciate what we have in front of us... our men's DESIRE for us is a beautiful Gift to never be neglected, taken lightly. 

When our spouses NEED us ...and it IS a NEED!! Then they too, will be there for us, in our time of need... even when they may be struggling to perform... Isn't this the ultimate love...but how to convey all of this effectively, movingly, lastingly...

If only we KNEW [email protected]#$%^& 

I often think...if ONLY I had such a "sexual mentor" in my own early marriage, I am almost  at some of the women for NOT going there with me....for taking the time, even in concern from my husband...not one of them did... Sex talk is so taboo, what a shame. 

Oh how my own daughter will NOT be clueless as I ..... But expressing the utter vital life-giving importance of a fullfilling happening sex life ...and how a man feels wholly loved by his wife. We too often ignore these subjects.... shame shame shame I say!

I speak from experience ...I KNOW how this greatly re-vived my own husband, he became more emotionally vulnerable with me..(something I was missing).... I am sure some of my posts make others near sick







sometimes even.... but I don't want to downplay anything either. 

And also...I've experienced the pain of QUESTIONING if my husband desired me...even though this was not the case -I still FELT IT being HIGHER drive- I entertained I was some type of burden to him, my mind was really getting carried away...us women can be so freaking emotional. IN this way, we ought to understand our husbands I would think!!

...I guess if there is some benefit to my experiencing these things, it is in my expressing them -so others MIGHT "get it"...and have a desire to Be all for their spouses, as my husband has done for me...even when he struggled to do so (his test levels are lower normal, near 200 points less than average for other men his age).... It ain't so easy for men! 

I leave you with a quote from ThreeTimesALady. I find these words the epitome of what we are meant to be for our men. Inspiration written all over it. WOuld your wives be UP for reading something like this I wonder ?? 



> *Sex is *desiring him every time you look at him. Needing him to fill that wonderful yearning deep inside you that needs filling & to die for. *Sex is *having breasts that ached to be touched & loved & you can not live without it. *Sex is *waking him up in the middle of the night as you need him & want him & then you find that he wants you just as much & you make love for an hour & get up & have coffee & wonder where the years have gone. *Sex is *finding the thrill after years of a man that can still make you scream & turn you to mush. *Sex is* turning him into a crazy man who wants you more than his own life.
> 
> Now. *Love is *being able to see some fault in your lover but shutting your mouth for the good of a marriage.* Love is *having to give & take in a marriage. Learning where to stop an argument when it is not important to win. Winning sometimes can be losing. *Love is *being able to find in that precious other the boy in the man that you fell in love when you 1st married. Love is being able to go to the sexiest side of you & turn that man into mush after all these years. *Love is *being able to hear from your lover that if you die first he will follow you as he cannot live without you . *Love is *the sunshine in the morning when it is cloudy out but seeing him next to you makes your world. *Love is *being able to say screwing & not being embarrassed plus any other really dirty word in the bedroom as he loves it. The dirtier the better as we all know that ladies do not talk dirty with those wonderful words but we also know as ladies that when we enter our bedroom to our precious that we leave the lady at the door. We then turn into his sex siren. As hot & as sensual as can be. And then we all know that when we leave that bedroom we again pick up the lady. All us ladies must have the two faces of Eve. This makes for a very very fullfilling marriage, full of intimacy and Love. A man would never stray if he had this.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

> I often think...if ONLY I had such a "sexual mentor" in my own early marriage, I am almost at some of the women for NOT going there with me....for taking the time, even in concern from my husband...not one of them did... Sex talk is so taboo, what a shame.
> 
> Oh how my own daughter will NOT be clueless as I ..... But expressing the utter vital life-giving importance of a fullfilling happening sex life ...and how a man feels wholly loved by his wife. We too often ignore these subjects.... shame shame shame I say!


I agree with you on this, SA. It's actually appalling how little we know about relationships and sex before we dive right in. There are so many sexual messages in the media, so many awkward experiences that younger people have in today's hook-up and pick-up culture, and so much sex "education" focused on disease prevention, pregnancy prevention, and positions and techniques. Where is the education on relationships, and sex within a loving relationship?

It took me a very long time to reconcile how extremely different the meaning of sex is for a man who is in a loving relationship, vs a man who is "dating", for lack of a better word. I had a hard time believing that a switch flipped and suddenly sex was this meaningful thing a man needed to feel loved because that was the complete opposite of what sex meant to a man who did not (yet) love the woman he was having sex with.

Not many people talk about this stuff or teach young people. So many marry without a clue about relationships.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

norajane said:


> It took me a very long time to reconcile how extremely different the meaning of sex is for a man who is in a loving relationship, vs a man who is "dating", for lack of a better word. I had a hard time believing that a switch flipped and suddenly sex was this meaningful thing a man needed to feel loved because that was the complete opposite of what sex meant to a man who did not (yet) love the woman he was having sex with.


I understand, as it took me by surprise as well. 

For me, it was not a switch, but rather a gradual realization that sex was more than just the physical. As a man, it is great when a women is attracted to us. When it is the woman that we love, there is nothing better. Sex is both a physical and emotional display of that love and trust from my wife. It is something that I can't get from anyone else, and frankly don't really want to.


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## strugglinghusband (Nov 9, 2011)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I understand, as it took me by surprise as well.
> 
> For me, it was not a switch, but rather a gradual realization that sex was more than just the physical. As a man, it is great when a women is attracted to us. When it is the woman that we love, there is nothing better. Sex is both a physical and emotional display of that love and trust from my wife. It is something that I can't get from anyone else, and frankly don't really want to.


:iagree: ten fold


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> It seems River is Banned! Anyone know what happened there??
> 
> Probably due to her constant attacks on men who came to TAM with issues
> 
> I would really love to know what her deal is. She seems so angry at men in general and has a somewhat stilted view of how mwn view woman.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

norajane said:


> I agree with you on this, SA. It's actually appalling how little we know about relationships and sex before we dive right in. There are so many sexual messages in the media, so many awkward experiences that younger people have in today's hook-up and pick-up culture, and so much sex "education" focused on disease prevention, pregnancy prevention, and positions and techniques. Where is the education on relationships, and sex within a loving relationship?


 In this respect, maybe I SHOULD have known better then as I never dived in, I did educate myself to the "potential harms" of casual sex... very much so. Even though my hormones were raging at one time, I was even BOY CRAZY...I did have some self control... Until one accually experiences the Excitement of intercourse, I don't think young people know what they are missing. Once you go down that path though... there is no going back. It's too gooooood. 



> It took me a very long time to reconcile how extremely different the meaning of sex is for a man who is in a loving relationship, vs a man who is "dating", for lack of a better word. I had a hard time believing that a switch flipped and suddenly sex was this meaningful thing a man needed to feel loved because that was the complete opposite of what sex meant to a man who did not (yet) love the woman he was having sex with.[/QUOTE
> 
> Not many people talk about this stuff or teach young people. So many marry without a clue about relationships.


I spoke on something very similar in my thread on what I will teach my daughter... #8 about *depersonalizing our emotions *when we have too many breakups. I put a tremendous amount of







into this thread.... >>> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/family...-sex-relation-love-her-emotions-her-life.html

I have never experienced sex without LOVE flowing & the emotional, and still I made these blunders [email protected]#$%^&. I've only been with my husband -that was very important to me -to wait for the man who was the REAL DEAL....that I was his one & only -and he wanted me for life. I would have been too devestated to be used & discared by a man in this way... I would not have even been capable of separating the the 2. 

So in this way, I never experienced this particular hang up, that you & tall Average Guy is talking about. This is likely 95% of the population when you think about it though. 

My husband was always at my beck & call, so I was immediately satisfied /fullfilled, I never had to wait -to crave, to feel the heat of that frustration -in this way... I could have learned a lesson early on, feeling the emotional weight of yearning and wanting to be filled up by my lover. 

Even though I took my husband's desire for Granted, I KNOW had it not been there, I would not have been happy in my marraige. I always felt overwhelmingly loved -I was just "spoiled" basically.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Toffer said:


> SimplyAmorous said:
> 
> 
> > It seems River is Banned! Anyone know what happened there??
> ...


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Toffer said:
> 
> 
> > I feel we ALL speak out of our experiences to some degree, we need to catch ourselves & realize -just cause this has been our reality...doesn't mean it paints others the same , or even close...sometimes.
> ...


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

DTO said:


> I agree completely. And this is exactly my point - forgoing the marital benefit will never happen. I have never - not once - seen or read a situation where the woman says "I will not fulfill your sexual need but in return do not expect you to do XYZ for me either". It's as if women expect their bodies to count for more - that is what I fight against.


Well, I agree with your posts, so there! Except to the extent you say what I was trying to say or what I meant to say better than I could/did. In those cases, I zealously disagree with what you say.


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## SprucHub (Jan 13, 2012)

norajane said:


> I agree with you on this, SA. It's actually appalling how little we know about relationships and sex before we dive right in. There are so many sexual messages in the media, so many awkward experiences that younger people have in today's hook-up and pick-up culture, and so much sex "education" focused on disease prevention, pregnancy prevention, and positions and techniques. Where is the education on relationships, and sex within a loving relationship?
> 
> It took me a very long time to reconcile how extremely different the meaning of sex is for a man who is in a loving relationship, vs a man who is "dating", for lack of a better word. I had a hard time believing that a switch flipped and suddenly sex was this meaningful thing a man needed to feel loved because that was the complete opposite of what sex meant to a man who did not (yet) love the woman he was having sex with.
> 
> Not many people talk about this stuff or teach young people. So many marry without a clue about relationships.


It is absolutely something that should be taught. It took me years to understand this. How I was struggling to be perfect and manipulating my life for just the opportunity to have sex. It took such blatant inaffection for me to understand how important affection is. So, I can completely get how my W and other women are completely clueless - if I did not understand what I was going through, how could she.


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## CanadianGuy (Jun 17, 2012)

Seems that someone else is looking for answers to the question in the OP. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/53105-sex-drive.html


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## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

SimplyAmorous said:


> It seems River is Banned! Anyone know what happened there??


I think the more appropriate question would be "what didn't happen there??". 

She's been running up and down this board man hating and poster bashing for awhile now. I'm merely surprised it took this long.


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