# I suck at dealing with her anger, please help



## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

When she gets mad with me about something and starts doing what she does when she is mad I can only take so much before she gets me. Once she gets me I feel unable to remain loving and positive. I start to withdraw, I don't speak much and I will try to go somewhere else for some relief. The crappy part is this effects the people around us, sometimes the kids. I know this is not helping us and it's not what she needs in those times. The problem is I suck at it. When she gets going being mean and nasty I feel disrespected. This is especially true when she does things that are wrong, gets me, then never apologies for it. It's almost like she expects me to let everything go and never need an apology from her. It an exhausting circle or argument.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Do you ever shut her down when she starts getting mean and nasty?
Just tell her "I do not deserve to be spoken to like this. When you can have a conversation that does NOT include attacking me and being nasty, we can continue this. Until then, I will not participate in this. Let me know when you are calm enough to continue the conversation" and then just walk away.

By doing this "I start to withdraw, I don't speak much and I will try to go somewhere else for some relief." you are basically running away with NO corrective response to your wife acting like this. To HER, when you do this, she wins and sees that she has the power over you. Take it back from her.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

It isn't your job to deal with her anger. It's her job to control it.

Walk away when she goes tantrum. That's her flaw to fix.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

jlg07 said:


> Do you ever shut her down when she starts getting mean and nasty?
> Just tell her "I do not deserve to be spoken to like this. When you can have a conversation that does NOT include attacking me and being nasty, we can continue this. Until then, I will not participate in this. Let me know when you are calm enough to continue the conversation" and then just walk away.
> 
> By doing this "I start to withdraw, I don't speak much and I will try to go somewhere else for some relief." you are basically running away with NO corrective response to your wife acting like this. To HER, when you do this, she wins and sees that she has the power over you. Take it back from her.


I have started doing this when I have the ability to leave. Sometimes there is no out. For instance we are taking the kids out somewhere or we are all on a vacation together. When situations like that arise I may tell her the same thing "I will not deal with you being mean and nasty, if thats what your going to do your going to do it alone" but then I cannot leave, she continues to fester and eventually I take her up on the argument out of my inability to remain positive and calm. All this she wins he wins stuff, **** tests, etc. does relationships really need to be this cryptic and difficult.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> It isn't your job to deal with her anger. It's her job to control it.
> 
> Walk away when she goes tantrum. That's her flaw to fix.


Thank you for the advise, short but to the point. I think I hold out for an apology after she acts like an *******. I feel like I deserve it but it often never comes. This is most likely another problem of mine that is making my life more difficult.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> It isn't your job to deal with her anger. It's her job to control it.
> 
> Walk away when she goes tantrum. That's her flaw to fix.


Bull****. That's what weak people do. In my marriage, this seldom happens, but when it does I shot that down immediately. Not need to be nasty, or mean, I just get my point straight, with no room to wiggle or to continue. Period.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Rob_1 said:


> Bull****. That's what weak people do. In my marriage, this seldom happens, but when it does I shot that down immediately. Not need to be nasty, or mean, I just get my point straight, with no room to wiggle or to continue. Period.


Interesting I thought it was good advise. Rob your wife was never angry with you about something and put you in situation where you you had to be around her being mean and nasty? If so how did you "shut it down immediately"? Sounds like you may be lucky to have a wife that calms down quickly, I do not.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

@482. It is a matter of stablishing boundaries from the beginning of the relationship. If you are trying to do this after 5, 10, 15 years etc., It will be a battle that will take time an realizations from your partner that you are not longer willing to take any****, any longer; consequences be damned.

Case in point. When I started to date my wife, I made it clear to her that my ex-wife was like a sister to me, like a blood relative, and that I was always to have a relationship with her, no matter what. Knowing women, I told her to either accept it now, or "no go" with the relationship. She trusted me, she accepted it, and to this day they're good friends, and to my children she's auntie. To me.. my ex it's just that like a sister.. I couldn't for the life of me think of her sexually, yuck😝


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Rob_1 said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > It isn't your job to deal with her anger. It's her job to control it.
> ...


I'm not surprised you missed my point.

Here it was: HER angry rants are HER fault and HER lack of self control.

You don't negotiate or try to win with a crazy person. THAT is weak ego driven futility. 

What you do is not participate.

Stamping your feet and saying "I won't stand for this!" is laughably useless.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

482 said:


> Rob_1 said:
> 
> 
> > Bull****. That's what weak people do. In my marriage, this seldom happens, but when it does I shot that down immediately. Not need to be nasty, or mean, I just get my point straight, with no room to wiggle or to continue. Period.
> ...


When you fight fire with fire, more things get burned.

Men who think the way to deal with an angry woman is to our angry her are simply playing her game.

Strong men don't play.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> I'm not surprised you missed my point.
> 
> Here it was: HER angry rants are HER fault and HER lack of self control.
> 
> ...


Of course. And I am not surprised that you are not surprised. You and your men putting down absolute last truthful crap word is a Biblical and universal physical immutable law.

And FYI. I do not need to stomp my feet or any of that **** you're talking about.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

This is a girlfriend, not a wife, is that correct?

You don't need to live this life with her.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> When you fight fire with fire, more things get burned.
> 
> Men who think the way to deal with an angry woman is to our angry her are simply playing her game.
> 
> Strong men don't play.


Your right. Strong men don't play. Like I already said...I shoot that down right away. No need to play a partner's game IF YOU KNOW HOW TO DO IT. No shouting match needed. That's for people that can't control an argument within the confines of the particular situation.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

You're definitely a pro. Uou hot your wife to let you remain emotionally intimate with your ex - something you'd mock any man for allowing his wife to do.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

"but then I cannot leave, she continues to fester and eventually I take her up on the argument out of my inability to remain positive and calm." @482, THAT is on YOU. YOU need to control yourself (you cannot control her). If she continues the argument, simply refuse to get mad angry. Let her rant, do what she wants. THAT is on her. 
How YOU respond is on you. Don't get sucked into her game.
Just continue with the "I will not discuss this with you while you are being mean and nasty, period".


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Livvie said:


> This is a girlfriend, not a wife, is that correct?
> 
> You don't need to live this life with her.


That is correct but even if she was my wife I would not have to live this life with her. The thing is we have a good life together. The only thing that plagues us is the way we fight and how long it drags on. I am seeking to understand better my role in that because I feel that working on me would be more productive, either for this relationship or my next one.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Rob_1 said:


> @personofinterest: And... you're just pissed off about it? So, what you're gonna do about it? Come with your posse of men haters and beat the crap out of me..if you only could.
> 
> Find something better to piss on, and no more tread jacking to your personal anti men agenda.


Rob,

Let me give an example. You are with your wife and 2 kids on a vacation. You are staying in a hotel as a family of course. You are out as a family in a theme park 45 minutes from the car and 120 minutes from the hotel. Regardless of the location you choose the, park, car, or hotel, you will all be together. Your wife gets pissed off with you about X. She starts festering and acting mean and nasty towards you. She has not yet spilled over into acting mean and nasty to the kids and others, she is just doing it to you. What do you do? 

I try so hard not to get sucked into feeling like **** or participating with her in her invitation to fight. I try hard to remain positive in these situations. I will admit I suck at it and fail often. With that said there seems to be a fine line, in my mind, between remaining calm and eating ****. I think I am so sensitive to the fact that she may think I am accepting to eat **** that I take everything very personal. When I do this it's often followed by waiting for the apology that never comes and the fight cycle begins.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

are you staying for the kids? because to be honest it can't be a bed of roses for them either, don't you think they wish they could leave too?


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Lostinthought61 said:


> are you staying for the kids? because to be honest it can't be a bed of roses for them either, don't you think they wish they could leave too?


Do you mean the kids wish they could leave the park in my example or leave the relationship we have together? Ill answer both

They would not want to leave the park they would want nothing more than to see us both happy and have a good day of fun.

They would not want us to end our relationship, the kids love us very much, my daughter loves her and her son and daughter love me. They hate to see us fight.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

482 said:


> That is correct but even if she was my wife I would not have to live this life with her. The thing is we have a good life together. The only thing that plagues us is the way we fight and how long it drags on. I am seeking to understand better my role in that because I feel that working on me would be more productive, either for this relationship or my next one.


Then you are setting the stage for what the rest of your life with her would be. 

Strong boundaries are needed from your part when an argument starts: camly and securely, without hesitation tell her that the issue will be discussed later when she's calm, and that if she starts to argue again that the conversation is over until she can discuss in a calm manner.

End it right there, otherwise, you are setting a precedent.
If, nothing really stops her from arguing in a agitated manner, then probably, even though you guys are cool in other areas this is a big red flag that will only get worse when married, and a source of countless heartaches in a marriage that could lead to all kind of resentments, that as you read in posts here or other forums, might eventually lead to all kind of insurmuntable problems for the marriage. 

If the arguments are that bad, and you are not able to get her out of that modus operandi, then you might reconsider the relationship.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

482 said:


> Do you mean the kids wish they could leave the park in my example or leave the relationship we have together? Ill answer both
> 
> They would not want to leave the park they would want nothing more than to see us both happy and have a good day of fun.
> 
> They would not want us to end our relationship, the kids love us very much, my daughter loves her and her son and daughter love me. They hate to see us fight.



First of all you need to call it what it is...verbal abuse....don't call it a fight, especially when it's coming from one side....but a grown man who is choosing to put up with mental and verbal abuse and what is worse is that they kids see this and think to themselves this is normal right...no it is not normal and you placating her is not normal. you are demonstrating a very poor model for your daughter.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

482 said:


> When she gets mad with me about something and starts doing what she does when she is mad I can only take so much before she gets me. Once she gets me I feel unable to remain loving and positive. I start to withdraw, I don't speak much and I will try to go somewhere else for some relief. The crappy part is this effects the people around us, sometimes the kids. I know this is not helping us and it's not what she needs in those times. The problem is I suck at it. When she gets going being mean and nasty I feel disrespected. This is especially true when she does things that are wrong, gets me, then never apologies for it. It's almost like she expects me to let everything go and never need an apology from her. It an exhausting circle or argument.


Can you give an example of something that has made her angry, and what exactly (that you recall) did she say/do to you once she was angry? And what did you say in response?

It is never okay for her to be nasty and berate you. Never. But I'm curious what type of thing sets her off. Has she always been this way or is this anger something that surfaced after a few years together? I ask that question because it is not uncommon for a women to very nicely explain to a man that she is unhappy about something but since she's calm and pleasant, the man does nothing about it, because in his mind, there is no actual problem since she's tolerating whatever it is. Over time the woman becomes so frustrated she turns bitter and hysteria seems to be the only thing she knows how to do to get the guys attention. (Which still doesn't work.)

It's also not uncommon for some people to just be spoiled, self indulgent *****es who figure they'll just throw a tantrum to get there way every time. That's why I'm curious what she's upset about and how do you initially respond.

You say you have a great relationship outside of the fighting. Have you tried talking to her about the fighting when you're both in a good mood? Because it will kill your love for her eventually. And it is very stressful to the kids too. I encourage you to read this and then ask her to read it too. I'd read all of it but there is a link to "Angry Outbursts" specifically toward the bottom of the page.

https://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html


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## Red Sonja (Sep 8, 2012)

Rob_1 said:


> @personofinterest: And... you're just pissed off about it? So, what you're gonna do about it? Come with your posse of men haters and beat the crap out of me..if you only could.
> 
> Find something better to piss on, and no more tread jacking to your personal anti men agenda.


Wow, this is how you react when someone has a different opinion? :slap:


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

Red Sonja said:


> Wow, this is how you react when someone has a different opinion? :slap:


Different options? What different opinions?? She goes into veiled attack mode towards me. I just don't play coy. I tell it like it is. Not need to pretend. But of course, you did not see that. You're just seeing my response.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

482 said:


> They would not want us to end our relationship, the kids love us very much, my daughter loves her and her son and daughter love me. They hate to see us fight.


 Judging from some of your other posts, she's 'angry' all the time about stupid crap.

You're not married, you don't even have any kids together and you're *still *putting up with this ****? 

Sadly, you kind of sound like a stray dog someone keeps kicking yet you keep going back to them in the hopes of getting a pat on the head instead.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

The reason your children don't want you to end the relationship is because they don't know any differently. This is their normal. Let that sink in for a moment. They think the dysfunction between you and your ranting, angry wife is normal life. Think about what that will do to them once they become adults. Is that what you want for them, to see this as the way life is supposed to be?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

482 said:


> When she gets mad with me about something and starts doing what she does when she is mad I can only take so much before she gets me. Once she gets me I feel unable to remain loving and positive. I start to withdraw, I don't speak much and I will try to go somewhere else for some relief. The crappy part is this effects the people around us, sometimes the kids. I know this is not helping us and it's not what she needs in those times. The problem is I suck at it. When she gets going being mean and nasty I feel disrespected. This is especially true when she does things that are wrong, gets me, then never apologies for it. It's almost like she expects me to let everything go and never need an apology from her. It an exhausting circle or argument.


Why do you think you leaving the situation (her berating you) is not what she needs?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

482 said:


> Thank you for the advise, short but to the point. I think I hold out for an apology after she acts like an *******. *I feel like I deserve it* but it often *never comes*. This is most likely another problem of mine that is making my life more difficult.


This is you trying to control her. Just like her anger is her trying to control you.

You can't change another person. You can't make another person do what you want. You can only create a situation in which she WANTS to do what you want.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

482 said:


> Rob,
> 
> Let me give an example. You are with your wife and 2 kids on a vacation. You are staying in a hotel as a family of course. You are out as a family in a theme park 45 minutes from the car and 120 minutes from the hotel. Regardless of the location you choose the, park, car, or hotel, you will all be together. Your wife gets pissed off with you about X. She starts festering and acting mean and nasty towards you. She has not yet spilled over into acting mean and nasty to the kids and others, she is just doing it to you. What do you do?


You grab the kids' hands, look at her, and say "I won't subject the kids to your anger. We are going to do the XYZ ride. If you can go with us without the anger, you're welcome to come. If you can't drop it, we'll meet back up with you right here in an hour."

And then you LEAVE with the kids so they can enjoy themselves.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Rob_1 said:


> Bull****. That's what weak people do. In my marriage, this seldom happens, but when it does I shot that down immediately. Not need to be nasty, or mean, I just get my point straight, with no room to wiggle or to continue. Period.


Actually every psychologist out there would tell him to leave the discussion until she can learn to speak respectfully. Calmly say I won't discuss this with you until you calm down. And leave if she refuses. This TRAINS her to respect him. That's what is missing - respect.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

482 said:


> Rob,
> 
> Let me give an example. You are with your wife and 2 kids on a vacation. You are staying in a hotel as a family of course. You are out as a family in a theme park 45 minutes from the car and 120 minutes from the hotel. Regardless of the location you choose the, park, car, or hotel, you will all be together. Your wife gets pissed off with you about X. She starts festering and acting mean and nasty towards you. She has not yet spilled over into acting mean and nasty to the kids and others, she is just doing it to you. What do you do?
> 
> I try so hard not to get sucked into feeling like **** or participating with her in her invitation to fight. I try hard to remain positive in these situations. I will admit I suck at it and fail often. With that said there seems to be a fine line, in my mind, between remaining calm and eating ****. I think I am so sensitive to the fact that she may think I am accepting to eat **** that I take everything very personal. When I do this it's often followed by waiting for the apology that never comes and the fight cycle begins.


First thing I would do is sit your wife down and explain to her if there is an issue she is angry about your will be happy to discuss it with her but you will NOT argue in front of the kids full stop. Tell here there is no chance you will be engaging in this as it is harmful to them and you would rather risk her anger getting worse and worse than harming the kids in that way. When you have this discussion with her when you are both calm she will probably agree as if of course that makes sense. She is probably in denial that her behavior is as negative as it is.

If she starts a fight like as in your example, which she will probably still do, you just don't take the bait at all. Leave her be, ignore her negativity, respond to positive things like what ride should we go on next where to get lunch etc. But if she is going to argue about something just turn your attention to the kids and away from her. If there is an opportunity to tell her "we can discuss this later" do so but do not engage in any back in forth over the issue period. You have to be completely consistent in this after a while she will learn to not even start when she knows you'll just ignore it. Change is difficult but not impossible if you stick to a plan.

There are a lot of people who just simply suck at conflict resolution. Sometimes two people have to agree to disagree, but some people are incapable of this. I see it as a form of OCD. They are just slaves to their desire to be right. The problem is if your kids watch this over and over and over they will develop the same disfunction. 

Another thing to keep in mind is you must also be very self aware. Meaning if her anger is justified if you have done something that has legitimately bothered her apologize. 

I would suggest counseling but I have a feeling your wife might not see it as necessary, because she will likely not admit she is part of the problem.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> The reason your children don't want you to end the relationship is because they don't know any differently. This is their normal. Let that sink in for a moment. They think the dysfunction between you and your ranting, angry wife is normal life. Think about what that will do to them once they become adults. Is that what you want for them, to see this as the way life is supposed to be?


It's not his wife. She's a girlfriend. Of three years.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Livvie said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > The reason your children don't want you to end the relationship is because they don't know any differently. This is their normal. Let that sink in for a moment. They think the dysfunction between you and your ranting, angry wife is normal life. Think about what that will do to them once they become adults. Is that what you want for them, to see this as the way life is supposed to be?
> ...


 Well then good grief! How ridiculous. Break up with this woman. By a pint of been and Jerry's and move on.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

This dynamic is a very bad one for the children -- both yours and hers -- and it's one they are likely to repeat as adults. If you don't want that, and if there's no indication she plans to change her behavior, then you need to consider walking away (and absolutely don't make the mistake of marrying her).


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

Walking around on eggshells must be draining for you 482. What keeps you from ignoring her or laughing at her when she loses control of her emotions? Hopefully she loses control during sex, I could see that as being exciting.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

OP, this woman is not your wife. She is your girlfriend of just three years. You two do not, apparently, share any children. And this is the same woman you can't seem to convince - despite what I suspect from your other posts is a fair amount of pouting and being pissy about it - to have sex with you more than 70% of the times you ask. 

I will tell you what I've told you a couple other times in your other threads: You two are not compatible. Read that again, as many times as it takes for it to sink it. You are not sexually compatible or emotionally compatible. You. Two. Are. Not. Compatible. 

That doesn't mean you're a bad person. It also doesn't mean she's a bad person. What it does mean is that you two will never be able to have a happy long-term relationship together. I suggest you be the grown up and end this relationship while there's still at least a hint of mutual care. Then, you need to spend some time working on yourself and your picker. Learn what a healthy relationship looks like, and what it takes to find and maintain one. Work on being someone who's able to be an emotionally healthy partner, and when you've got that part down, work on finding someone who can be an emotionally healthy partner to you. 

But this woman, this relationship, isn't the one. Because you two are not compatible.


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## ChargingCharlie (Nov 14, 2012)

I speak from experience (have posted about it many times before) - you need to learn to bite back hard. When our kids were around a year old or so, my wife was like this. Always *****ing about something - she'd complain that she couldn't trust me to do anything, but if I wasn't home by 5:30 she'd complain that she wasn't getting any help (note that I'd have them all day and had no problems, while she'd have them for a half hour and I'd hear about it). I was always walking on eggshells, making sure to do everything just right so she wouldn't get mad - not a good idea. She'd blame me for everything, even if I had nothing to do with what happened (she did this with our sitter once, blaming me for something that was her fault. Sitter called her out on it, telling her that Charlie may be at fault for a lot of things, but blaming him for this was way over the line).

Finally had an epiphany while reading some posts on this site, and learned to bite back. Worked wonders - she'd be upset for a little bit, but she'd get over it. You need to set some boundries. I don't dread going home anymore - now our sex life is non-existent, but now when I get home I don't get a blast about how I loaded the dishwasher incorrectly or about how she's had the kids for a half hour and they're driving her nuts, and I'm not home to help her.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

482 said:


> When she gets mad with me about something and starts doing what she does when she is mad I can only take so much before she gets me. Once she gets me I feel unable to remain loving and positive. I start to withdraw, I don't speak much and I will try to go somewhere else for some relief. The crappy part is this effects the people around us, sometimes the kids. I know this is not helping us and it's not what she needs in those times. The problem is I suck at it. When she gets going being mean and nasty I feel disrespected. This is especially true when she does things that are wrong, gets me, then never apologies for it. It's almost like she expects me to let everything go and never need an apology from her. It an exhausting circle or argument.


Yeah, I know where you are coming from. Is she on the ASD spectrum?


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Rob_1 said:


> Then you are setting the stage for what the rest of your life with her would be.
> 
> Strong boundaries are needed from your part when an argument starts: calmly and securely, without hesitation tell her that the issue will be discussed later when she's calm, and that if she starts to argue again that the conversation is over until she can discuss in a calm manner.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your comments, I get it. I will own my part and get better at not getting sucked into her arguments and negativity. If I can do that successfully I will be a better man, for her or my next relationship. I admit I suck at it and it does not help. I need to be able to just have a good day even when she is festering right next to me. If she gets a clear consistent message that I will not be sucked into an argument maybe things will change. At a minimum I will change and that would be a step in the right direction. Does your wife fester like this? Do you just stay with her in those moments and remain happy regardless? For instance in my park example what would you do after you shut it down ASAP and she continues to be nice to everyone but you?


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

WorkingWife said:


> Can you give an example of something that has made her angry, and what exactly (that you recall) did she say/do to you once she was angry? And what did you say in response?
> 
> It is never okay for her to be nasty and berate you. Never. But I'm curious what type of thing sets her off. Has she always been this way or is this anger something that surfaced after a few years together? I ask that question because it is not uncommon for a women to very nicely explain to a man that she is unhappy about something but since she's calm and pleasant, the man does nothing about it, because in his mind, there is no actual problem since she's tolerating whatever it is. Over time the woman becomes so frustrated she turns bitter and hysteria seems to be the only thing she knows how to do to get the guys attention. (Which still doesn't work.)
> 
> ...


She was not this way in the beginning it slowly came on after the advertisement phase wore off. I would love it if she was able to talk about her feelings in a calm and respectful way. I can respect that type of communication. She flips the anger switch pretty quick and then I stop listening because I refuse to deal with her nasty behavior. Here is an example. We are in the car and I was joking with her about something stupid we often do, it must have started to rub her the wrong way. I notice she is starting to get dismissive and act like I am bothering her so I say something along the lines of "why don't you call someone to talk to" and this flipped her anger switch. She get immediately mean and nasty and says "why are you being a ****?" in a very nasty way. My response was "wow that was way out of line and uncalled for" I have been very clear about a boundary of mine being name calling in our family. She then continues to be mean and nasty for a very long time without me taking part in the argument at all. She very rarely calms down and apologies later, if she does its often days later. Sometimes she will try to move on and then I get angry because she did not apologize, one of my problems that is not helping. She justifies her behavior most times by blaming her actions on things I do. For instance in this example it was that I told her to call someone. I understand I played a part in this one but I am not the one that got angry, mean, nasty and crossed boundaries. It would seem more productive to me if she could have explained how she was feeling without all the anger. I will read that link and pass it on. Thank you


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Judging from some of your other posts, she's 'angry' all the time about stupid crap.
> 
> You're not married, you don't even have any kids together and you're *still *putting up with this ****?
> 
> Sadly, you kind of sound like a stray dog someone keeps kicking yet you keep going back to them in the hopes of getting a pat on the head instead.


She is quick to anger but not always angry, plus she is not posting here its only me so its a bit one sided. I can respect your opinion but I do not agree with the stray dog part. After a year together we had an unplanned pregnancy and miscarriage (I posted about this early on). We were living together at the time and this broke us down to nothing, we were killing each other. I was clear that I was not happy, boundaries were being crossed, and I was not going to stay under these conditions (things got very bad). I packed my stuff up and moved out. I never looked back and started dating soon after that. She reached out to me after about 2-3 months and we started talking again. She is well aware that I will chose my happiness first if things are just consistently bad. I hear about this all the time, smh. Now for my part in all this. During that time I will admit I was more of a boy than a man. Having this experience brought me to TAM and started my journey into becoming a man. I quite literally got the **** kicked out of me on my first post to this site. I have probably read any book you can list about being a better man, communication, and marriage since then. I am far from the man I want to be but I am nothing like what I was during that time. If I was the man I wanted to be right now I would never need to create this post in the first place. I am a constant work in progress but I will never be a stray dog for anyone.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> Why do you think you leaving the situation (her berating you) is not what she needs?


I think sometimes it is the best decision to leave but in an example like the theme park is it a good idea to leave her there with the kids? I don't think so. I think in a situation like that she needs to have less of an effect on me and I need to be able to remain present and show the kids a great time even if she wants to rant and rave, let her go. Like others have said and I agree thats on her.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

I would not go anywhere with her as long as she insists on major drama and disrespecting you in public--you take kids and go. Your stance on this should be clear from now forward. Already you are dreading what should be fun family times. Change your expectations--do not expect an apology from her--this is not who/what she is/does.

Some folks thrive on noise, drama, and angst-causing interactions. Most have learned this behavior through prior relationships. Others (you and I) do not see conflict as entertainment. As others have said, let those who thrive and gain energy have each other. Pick someone more similar to you or at least mid-range. Not to say one personality type is better than another, they are just different.

BTW: I knew a female who taunted her husband until he could take it no more and exploded. In counseling, he was told to go into the bathroom and lock the door when she started. Then she screamed, cursed, and beat on the door, "Come out and fight like a man." Then she would call the police as always, but now he was still locked in and she could no longer claim he was abusing her.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

happyhusband0005 said:


> First thing I would do is sit your wife down and explain to her if there is an issue she is angry about your will be happy to discuss it with her but you will NOT argue in front of the kids full stop. Tell here there is no chance you will be engaging in this as it is harmful to them and you would rather risk her anger getting worse and worse than harming the kids in that way. When you have this discussion with her when you are both calm she will probably agree as if of course that makes sense. She is probably in denial that her behavior is as negative as it is.
> 
> If she starts a fight like as in your example, which she will probably still do, you just don't take the bait at all. Leave her be, ignore her negativity, respond to positive things like what ride should we go on next where to get lunch etc. But if she is going to argue about something just turn your attention to the kids and away from her. If there is an opportunity to tell her "we can discuss this later" do so but do not engage in any back in forth over the issue period. You have to be completely consistent in this after a while she will learn to not even start when she knows you'll just ignore it. Change is difficult but not impossible if you stick to a plan.
> 
> ...


This post was very helpful, thank you. We are in counseling and it has helped with many things


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Openminded said:


> This dynamic is a very bad one for the children -- both yours and hers -- and it's one they are likely to repeat as adults. If you don't want that, and if there's no indication she plans to change her behavior, then you need to consider walking away (and absolutely don't make the mistake of marrying her).


We are not getting married unless we can move past these type of issues. A long time ago on TAM someone posted marriage is an amplifier and I believe that.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

PigglyWiggly said:


> Walking around on eggshells must be draining for you 482. What keeps you from ignoring her or laughing at her when she loses control of her emotions? Hopefully she loses control during sex, I could see that as being exciting.


I don't know for sure other than I know when she gets fired up I feel disrespected and pissed off. I need to get better at that and this post is helping. I need to figure out how to not have her anger effect me as much as it does. I need to get better at doing many of the thing people have recommended on this post.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Rowan said:


> OP, this woman is not your wife. She is your girlfriend of just three years. You two do not, apparently, share any children. And this is the same woman you can't seem to convince - despite what I suspect from your other posts is a fair amount of pouting and being pissy about it - to have sex with you more than 70% of the times you ask.
> 
> I will tell you what I've told you a couple other times in your other threads: You two are not compatible. Read that again, as many times as it takes for it to sink it. You are not sexually compatible or emotionally compatible. You. Two. Are. Not. Compatible.
> 
> ...


Rowan,

Thank you for your opinion, I appreciate it. I understand where you are coming from but I am not yet at the point where I want to end our relationship. I do not want to do that without feeling like I have done all I can do and it just wont work. I currently feel like there is much more we can both do. Will we be willing and actually do it only time will tell.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

ChargingCharlie said:


> I speak from experience (have posted about it many times before) - you need to learn to bite back hard. When our kids were around a year old or so, my wife was like this. Always *****ing about something - she'd complain that she couldn't trust me to do anything, but if I wasn't home by 5:30 she'd complain that she wasn't getting any help (note that I'd have them all day and had no problems, while she'd have them for a half hour and I'd hear about it). I was always walking on eggshells, making sure to do everything just right so she wouldn't get mad - not a good idea. She'd blame me for everything, even if I had nothing to do with what happened (she did this with our sitter once, blaming me for something that was her fault. Sitter called her out on it, telling her that Charlie may be at fault for a lot of things, but blaming him for this was way over the line).
> 
> Finally had an epiphany while reading some posts on this site, and learned to bite back. Worked wonders - she'd be upset for a little bit, but she'd get over it. You need to set some boundries. I don't dread going home anymore - now our sex life is non-existent, but now when I get home I don't get a blast about how I loaded the dishwasher incorrectly or about how she's had the kids for a half hour and they're driving her nuts, and I'm not home to help her.


Thanks Charlie,

Luckily she is not like this. She will work a full time job, run the kids around all night and most nights still make dinner for everyone. She will never complain about this type of stuff unless she started to feel unappreciated. For instance one night all the kids were complaining about what she cooked after one of these long days and she got upset. Fortunately this is rare. Our problems are mostly between me and her


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> Yeah, I know where you are coming from. Is she on the ASD spectrum?


no


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

482 said:


> Thank you for your comments, I get it. I will own my part and get better at not getting sucked into her arguments and negativity. If I can do that successfully I will be a better man, for her or my next relationship. I admit I suck at it and it does not help. I need to be able to just have a good day even when she is festering right next to me. If she gets a clear consistent message that I will not be sucked into an argument maybe things will change. At a minimum I will change and that would be a step in the right direction. Does your wife fester like this? Do you just stay with her in those moments and remain happy regardless? For instance in my park example what would you do after you shut it down ASAP and she continues to be nice to everyone but you?


Time to take a step back. She yells at you. What's the worst that can happen? She gets mad? She stays mad? What else? She gonna shoot you? Kill your parents? Get you fired? 

Time to come back to reality. Her getting mad isn't going to hurt you. Or anyone else. It won't ruin your life. I've spent 40 years living in fear of my husband's anger, and it's been hell.

Don't be like me. Face your fear.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

482 said:


> no


Well, that's one less thing to worry about.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

482 said:


> I have started doing this when I have the ability to leave. Sometimes there is no out. For instance we are taking the kids out somewhere or we are all on a vacation together. When situations like that arise I may tell her the same thing "I will not deal with you being mean and nasty, if thats what your going to do your going to do it alone" but then I cannot leave, she continues to fester and eventually I take her up on the argument out of my inability to remain positive and calm. All this she wins he wins stuff, **** tests, etc. does relationships really need to be this cryptic and difficult.




Yeah...You see in the past, you could just give them a (gentle) smack on the behind to snap them out of the crazy but now you go to prison for even suggesting it (which I am NOT). The point is, there’s simply no recourse for letting them act like immature children and dump their crap on you at any opportunity.
The only thing you can do is leave or threaten to leave. And it is possible she is acting like this to get you to do just that, so you can be the bad guy for ‘abandoning the family’.
Does she act like this all the time or once a month? Because it could just be hormonal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lucy999 (Sep 28, 2014)

482 said:


> Rowan,
> 
> Thank you for your opinion, I appreciate it. I understand where you are coming from but I am not yet at the point where I want to end our relationship. I do not want to do that without feeling like I have done all I can do and it just wont work. I currently feel like there is much more we can both do. Will we be willing and actually do it only time will tell.


But that's just it. You're willing to do the work to improve. She isn't. 

And you must've missed the part where @turnera said to take the kids WITH you while you're at the park and leave your gf standing there in her anger. Remove yourself AND the kids from the situation.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

482 said:


> When she gets mad with me about something and starts doing what she does when she is mad I can only take so much before she gets me. Once she gets me I feel unable to remain loving and positive. I start to withdraw, I don't speak much and I will try to go somewhere else for some relief. The crappy part is this effects the people around us, sometimes the kids. I know this is not helping us and it's not what she needs in those times. The problem is I suck at it. When she gets going being mean and nasty I feel disrespected. This is especially true when she does things that are wrong, gets me, then never apologies for it. It's almost like she expects me to let everything go and never need an apology from her. It an exhausting circle or argument.


*It's called "being natural!" 

She's the one with the bigger problems!

Had she sought professional help for her anger and incessant irritability toward you?

Until she does, expect no discernible improvement!*


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Rob_1 said:


> @482. It is a matter of stablishing boundaries from the beginning of the relationship. If you are trying to do this after 5, 10, 15 years etc., It will be a battle that will take time an realizations from your partner that you are not longer willing to take any****, any longer; consequences be damned.
> 
> Case in point. When I started to date my wife, I made it clear to her that my ex-wife was like a sister to me, like a blood relative, and that I was always to have a relationship with her, no matter what. Knowing women, I told her to either accept it now, or "no go" with the relationship. She trusted me, she accepted it, and to this day they're good friends, and to my children she's auntie. To me.. my ex it's just that like a sister.. I couldn't for the life of me think of her sexually, yuck😝


Rob, you are a gem aren't you, you are lucky to have such considerate and understanding "wives."


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

482, perhaps you could enlighten us on what she 'gets made' about exactly. 
Sounds like she is frustrated about something, what is it? Is any of it your responsibility at all? Or are you simply the unwilling victim in all of this, just wondering. 
I sense we are only getting a partial picture here and everyone (males mainly) are jumping up and down "shut down that beatch" etc. Not very constructive really.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

482 said:


> I think sometimes it is the best decision to leave but in an example like the theme park is it a good idea to leave her there with the kids? I don't think so. I think in a situation like that she needs to have less of an effect on me and I need to be able to remain present and show the kids a great time even if she wants to rant and rave, let her go. Like others have said and I agree thats on her.


I never said to leave her there with the kids. I said to TAKE the kids and go on a ride without her. Big difference.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

482, have you ever laughed at her when she starts losing her ****? I've had this reaction to people before who can't control themselves over miniscule things. I do not know why but it has been my natural reaction several times. Just a question to see if I am alone in that reaction.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Hey 482, my wife is a treasure but also does have a temper. She is perhaps the most levelheaded person I have ever known EXCEPT when she has gotten extremely stressed or lost her temper. Does this describe your wife?

Yeah, I suck at it too. My tendency is either to deflect blame or attack back (I lose my temper in a second, stupidly).


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

482 said:


> She was not this way in the beginning it slowly came on after the advertisement phase wore off. I would love it if she was able to talk about her feelings in a calm and respectful way. I can respect that type of communication. She flips the anger switch pretty quick and then I stop listening because I refuse to deal with her nasty behavior. Here is an example. We are in the car and I was joking with her about something stupid we often do, it must have started to rub her the wrong way. I notice she is starting to get dismissive and act like I am bothering her so I say something along the lines of "why don't you call someone to talk to" and this flipped her anger switch. She get immediately mean and nasty and says "why are you being a ****?" in a very nasty way. My response was "wow that was way out of line and uncalled for" I have been very clear about a boundary of mine being name calling in our family. She then continues to be mean and nasty for a very long time without me taking part in the argument at all. She very rarely calms down and apologies later, if she does its often days later. Sometimes she will try to move on and then I get angry because she did not apologize, one of my problems that is not helping. She justifies her behavior most times by blaming her actions on things I do. For instance in this example it was that I told her to call someone. I understand I played a part in this one but I am not the one that got angry, mean, nasty and crossed boundaries. It would seem more productive to me if she could have explained how she was feeling without all the anger. I will read that link and pass it on. Thank you


Interesting. This example you gave showed you being the disrespectful one and then getting upset when disrespect was shown back to you. You seem to believe you can act immature and snarky but expect her to use her grown up words and express her feelings in a “productive” way. Why didn’t you do that? You knew you already crossed a boundary with your “jokes” but felt the need to cross more with your snarky belittling comment. Why is your name calling boundary more important than her boundaries? Almost sounds like you are crossing hers on purpose.


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## WorkingWife (May 15, 2015)

482 said:


> She was not this way in the beginning it slowly came on after the advertisement phase wore off. I would love it if she was able to talk about her feelings in a calm and respectful way. I can respect that type of communication. She flips the anger switch pretty quick and then I stop listening because I refuse to deal with her nasty behavior. Here is an example. We are in the car and I was joking with her about something stupid we often do, it must have started to rub her the wrong way. I notice she is starting to get dismissive and act like I am bothering her so I say something along the lines of "why don't you call someone to talk to" and this flipped her anger switch. She get immediately mean and nasty and says "why are you being a ****?" in a very nasty way. My response was "wow that was way out of line and uncalled for" I have been very clear about a boundary of mine being name calling in our family. She then continues to be mean and nasty for a very long time without me taking part in the argument at all. She very rarely calms down and apologies later, if she does its often days later. Sometimes she will try to move on and then I get angry because she did not apologize, one of my problems that is not helping. She justifies her behavior most times by blaming her actions on things I do. For instance in this example it was that I told her to call someone. I understand I played a part in this one but I am not the one that got angry, mean, nasty and crossed boundaries. It would seem more productive to me if she could have explained how she was feeling without all the anger. I will read that link and pass it on. Thank you


It sounds like she felt you were teasing her and she doesn't like being teased and started getting irritated. Then you suggested she call someone -- was that like "Why don't you call someone to entertain yourself in the car since I'm getting on your nerves." or "Why don't you call someone and tell them about this?" Either way, I can see that being annoying. But it sounds like she has NO IDEA how to handle her temper.

I would say 
1) Don't tease her. Period. (A lot of women HATE being teased.)
2) If you see her "going there..." getting pissy/dismissive/etc. you might try stopping the conversation and asking her sincerely (not snidely) "Is something I'm doing upsetting you?" And if she says yes, then say something like "I'm sorry, I'll try not to do that anymore. I was totally joking around and had no idea I was upsetting you, that certainly wasn't my intention." Then just drop it for awhile.

Based on things you said here and in other posts about wanting to be a better man, I really encourage you to check out the whole marriagebuilders.com website. I know you're not married, but I learned SO MUCH there about things we do instinctively that hurt our relationships. If you like what you find, maybe you can get her to read it too. Her behavior may be coming from a place of frustration, but it's clearly not tolerable to you long term. (How could it be.)

The fact that you are working on yourself shows you are open minded, at least trying to be, and it would be great if she would do the same and find a way to express her frustrations like a mature adult. 

If she does say something is bothering her, and says it in a mature way, don't debate her or ridicule her or anything dismissive. Just consider it thoughtfully and let her know you understand.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

My view is that people keep doing the same thing if they can see that it has some effect on their victims. If you can effectively show that her anger does not really affect you at all, she will initially try to go one level higher but if you can still show that all of it is old hat and obviously pointless, than you might see a new strategy to whatever triggers her anger. Some of these behaviours are results of what we see in our parents. We just get the impression that that is what resolves issues. If we fail totally then we are forced to look for new methods. If she starts using a better method, then respond positively to that. Is my view.


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## OnTheRocks (Sep 26, 2011)

We teach others how to treat us. Put her on a crash course, or just leave. There are about 4B other women out there, many of which are not batchit crazy.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

inmyprime said:


> Yeah...You see in the past, you could just give them a (gentle) smack on the behind to snap them out of the crazy but now you go to prison for even suggesting it (which I am NOT). The point is, there’s simply no recourse for letting them act like immature children and dump their crap on you at any opportunity.
> The only thing you can do is leave or threaten to leave. And it is possible she is acting like this to get you to do just that, so you can be the bad guy for ‘abandoning the family’.
> Does she act like this all the time or once a month? Because it could just be hormonal.
> 
> ...


Its not all the time but there is no pattern around hormonal changes, I watched for that. Guess I'll just start smacking her around, lol or get better at dealing with her when she acts like a child


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

aine said:


> 482, perhaps you could enlighten us on what she 'gets made' about exactly.
> Sounds like she is frustrated about something, what is it? Is any of it your responsibility at all? Or are you simply the unwilling victim in all of this, just wondering.
> I sense we are only getting a partial picture here and everyone (males mainly) are jumping up and down "shut down that beatch" etc. Not very constructive really.


I contribute to arguments. I have given a couple of examples on this post. Even with that though I still think she is quick to anger and will rarely apologize


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

PigglyWiggly said:


> 482, have you ever laughed at her when she starts losing her ****? I've had this reaction to people before who can't control themselves over miniscule things. I do not know why but it has been my natural reaction several times. Just a question to see if I am alone in that reaction.


Sometimes, yes


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> Hey 482, my wife is a treasure but also does have a temper. She is perhaps the most levelheaded person I have ever known EXCEPT when she has gotten extremely stressed or lost her temper. Does this describe your wife?
> 
> Yeah, I suck at it too. My tendency is either to deflect blame or attack back (I lose my temper in a second, stupidly).


Yes she flips quick, I need to get better


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

arbitrator said:


> *It's called "being natural!"
> 
> She's the one with the bigger problems!
> 
> ...


I know she has a therapist, not sure what the nature of their work is like


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Bluesclues said:


> Interesting. This example you gave showed you being the disrespectful one and then getting upset when disrespect was shown back to you. You seem to believe you can act immature and snarky but expect her to use her grown up words and express her feelings in a “productive” way. Why didn’t you do that? You knew you already crossed a boundary with your “jokes” but felt the need to cross more with your snarky belittling comment. Why is your name calling boundary more important than her boundaries? Almost sounds like you are crossing hers on purpose.


Reading this now it sounds like you are correct.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Many people have recommended marriagebuilders.com I am going to do some reading there


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

482 said:


> I know she has a therapist, not sure what the nature of their work is like


Then now would be a good time to start joint therapy. Her IC needs to know what is really going on, and she is unlikely to tell that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

482 said:


> Many people have recommended marriagebuilders.com I am going to do some reading there


That site is also the source of the books His Needs Her Needs and also Love Busters. IMO, the best books available on a healthy marriage/relationship.

Now, that said, please stay FAR AWAY from the forums there. I tell you this - and many others here can corroborate - that their forum is TOXIC. Why? It was initially ok but it kind of got taken over by a rabid base of Harley supporters who literally ... well, just stay away; it will drive you down the rabbit hole.

There are only two forum websites, IMO, that go down the middle of the road, are open-minded, welcome input from all sources, and use the best advice mindset - this one, TAM, and MarriageAdvocates.com. This one welcomes Harley's work and MA was created from a group of people who used to be on Marriage Builders but got cut from the herd (i.e., banned) for not toeing the line at MB. They, too, welcome all aspects and beliefs. You'll get the best advice from either TAM or MA.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I'm going to read the book that FW recommended on your other post.. "Nonviolent Communication", Rosenberg. In quick look, it looks very worthwhile.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> Then now would be a good time to start joint therapy. Her IC needs to know what is really going on, and she is unlikely to tell that.




We also have a joint therapist. The therapists do not communicate though.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> That site is also the source of the books His Needs Her Needs and also Love Busters. IMO, the best books available on a healthy marriage/relationship.
> 
> Now, that said, please stay FAR AWAY from the forums there. I tell you this - and many others here can corroborate - that their forum is TOXIC. Why? It was initially ok but it kind of got taken over by a rabid base of Harley supporters who literally ... well, just stay away; it will drive you down the rabbit hole.
> 
> There are only two forum websites, IMO, that go down the middle of the road, are open-minded, welcome input from all sources, and use the best advice mindset - this one, TAM, and MarriageAdvocates.com. This one welcomes Harley's work and MA was created from a group of people who used to be on Marriage Builders but got cut from the herd (i.e., banned) for not toeing the line at MB. They, too, welcome all aspects and beliefs. You'll get the best advice from either TAM or MA.




Love busters I did not read but his needs her needs I did. Thanks for the advise.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

CatholicDad said:


> I'm going to read the book that FW recommended on your other post.. "Nonviolent Communication", Rosenberg. In quick look, it looks very worthwhile.




Noticed that book was purchased but never read. Just purchased the audiobook version so I can get through it in the car. Another closely related one recommended to me was BIFF. The books are great as long as us stubborn *******s can implement the learning. Lol


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## PreRaph (Jun 13, 2017)

personofinterest said:


> When you fight fire with fire, more things get burned.
> 
> Men who think the way to deal with an angry woman is to our angry her are simply playing her game.
> 
> Strong men don't play.


QFT. I cannot say how many times that I responded to blaming, criticizing, nagging and anger on my wife's part with anger, and it just made things worse. Like it or not, call it fair or not, a man's role is not to let his wife's emotions dictate his reactions. "I'm not going to deal with you until you calm down," and walking away is by far the best thing to do.

Call it stereotyping if you will, but it's a stereotype that has more than enough truth behind it, wives learn quickly enough what pushes our buttons. And when they are upset about something they will often do just that.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Why in the world are you staying with someone who acts like this?? Better yet, why are you subjecting your child to this? Maybe stop thinking about YOUR need to have some woman, ANY woman, clearly, in your life and think about how much your daughter deserves to have peace in her life. Even when you share blame in inciting her, she is way way out of line. Stop expecting an apology because you are NOT going to get one. Angry people don't care about how other people feel, and they feel justified in acting like an ass.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

3Xnocharm said:


> Why in the world are you staying with someone who acts like this?? Better yet, why are you subjecting your child to this? Maybe stop thinking about YOUR need to have some woman, ANY woman, clearly, in your life and think about how much your daughter deserves to have peace in her life. Even when you share blame in inciting her, she is way way out of line. Stop expecting an apology because you are NOT going to get one. Angry people don't care about how other people feel, and they feel justified in acting like an ass.



My daughter loves her often more than her own mom. I understand what you are saying about subjecting her to us arguing like children. She does need to see a better example. Is leaving to find that better example the best option, not yet. Maybe it will come to that. For now I need to work on me and how I can contribute less to having those issues in the future. “You are acting crazy and if you can not control yourself we can not talk” will be my new mantra. In addition I need to get better at not getting sucked into the arguments and her nasty behavior. Once I can master that I am in a very good position, a calm one, to penetrate her with love and humor in those moments. I get moody when she gets angry is the basis of this post, that needs to stop. Like others have said what is she going to do stab you?, lol. This is things I will need to be better at for any partner. She will eventually realize acting crazy will have no benefit in this relationship and stop it. Or she may continue to act crazy and I may be forced to leave her. I just honestly feel at this point I will deal with some level of this type of behavior in 85% of relationships. I know waiting for an apology is a waste. She knows when she ****s up even though she lets her pride get in the way of expressing it. Again I need to work on me. If I can say I have tried everything I can and this is just not going to work then I will have to leave, I am not there. I have been contributing to this problem rather than fixing it like a man.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

The problem is, it's not your job to fix it her behavior. Don't you want to be with someone who doesn't need to be fixed?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Is your partner in counseling specifically for anger or is anger simply a subset of other insights she is looking for?

I commend you on looking into all areas as you look to learn how to work through this but you may find yourself looking to lead one who will not be led… what then?

Anger is so easily misunderstood… as are our reactions to it, especially by ourselves.

What we often disregard is that anger is an incredibly powerful communication tool when we don’t set our minds in victimhood . Counseling teaches us that the way we express our emotions destructively is the problem and that therapy works to change the outward expression of that… for me this didn’t really bring much peace because all I was really doing was masking the source, ignoring what it was on the inside that triggered. 

I’d rather prevent the combustion to begin with than trying to direct the flame-thrower the right way.

I saw your example of being “teasing” and perhaps winding her up but I know I don’t have much faith in telling her out loud she is crazy and not in control and you will not talk to her until she calms herself while she is in a full-blown expression of her frustration and expecting her to suddenly be aware of the destruction around her.

Can you have hard conversations when things are calm without her becoming defensive or angry? 

Many sudden defensive responses are based on insecurities… fears of being seen as less informed, intelligent, moral, so when we double down on having to look like we know something relative to the situation or the costliness of simply being right, what we are saying is not we have too much pride but more that I am afraid you will think less of me if I am wrong… no safe zone perceived because the trust is missing.

I had to create my own safe-zone when I realized I was in an endless loop of arguing things that would not be obviously resolved in the moment. That safe zone is set with simple things that worked and a clear awareness of things that did not.

What worked for me:

When you... I feel...
What I heard you say...
My cup is full...
I'm sorry you feel that way... 
I see things differently...
I’m not okay with x (whatever "x" is)...

What did not work for me:

Do you think...
What actions can you take...


A lot of trial and error is required as you have seen so let me ask you to look at the positive side of this… she is desperately trying to communicate something to you when she explodes. Buried deep in her failed expression is something she feels strong about that she does not feel safe expressing. When you look at it in a way of compassion, “what is it this person I care so much about is trying to share with me that I am not hearing?”, your response begins to feel and look different.

Instead of a mantra of “You are acting crazy and if you can not control yourself we can not talk”, how about one of “I can see this has upset you and you are really hurting but this is abusive for both of us and I cannot feel good continuing like this so let’s take a break and come back to it later?”.

Buffer it with kindness, not ultimatums.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Livvie said:


> The problem is, it's not your job to fix it her behavior. Don't you want to be with someone who doesn't need to be fixed?




I am discussing fixing my behavior for the most part. My reactions to her.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Is your partner in counseling specifically for anger or is anger simply a subset of other insights she is looking for?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




She was not going specifically for anger just dealing with life’s troubles and anxiety. 

I would like to focus on me and what I can change. When it comes to her being led I hope she will make changes on her own from realizing what does and does not work for us.

I know what your saying about the teasing and the response from me. I did send her the message the other day during a moment when she got reved up that she was getting angry and worked up and I would not discuss this with her when she is acting that way. This took place 3 times during that conversation. It seemed to work well and it felt good not allowing her to suck me in. I am far from fine with this work but it was a great start. 

I can have hard conversations with her when she is calm but she does often get angry if anything I am saying translates in her mind that she is not good enough, is to blame, or I am thinking of leaving. She tends to take many things I say this way (a personal attack) even when I do not feel that way at all. This is her insecurities taking over, anger swoops in, and rational thinking and compassion goes out the window.

Hopefully my actions and questions will help her reveal her feelings that drive the bad behavior. 

Kindness and compassion not ultimatums got it.

Thank you


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I try to go to my happy place when my wife gets into a rage.

Doesn't always work.


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## Average Joe (Sep 2, 2015)

I'm following this thread with interest, as my wife is so similar ... "flip of a switch"-type rage. I've bought the book that was mentioned, "Non-violent communication," so that should be a plus.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Do you atleast get hot makeup sex when she shuts off *****mode. Stand your ground dude, dont walk away, jab her back but dont lose your cool. Then just walk away.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Average Joe said:


> I'm following this thread with interest, as my wife is so similar ... "flip of a switch"-type rage. I've bought the book that was mentioned, "Non-violent communication," so that should be a plus.




Is a decent book I am doing the audiobook version that the author put out. He probably should have had someone else do it. His voice and mouth noises are a bit much, lol. With that said there is valuable information in the book. The more I stop and ask myself a couple of questions the better things seem to get.

One question is from a book hold on to your nuts. The question is if I was the man I wanted to be right now what would I do. 

Second question is do I know why she is mad and if so is there anything I need to do or say or should I just move on and let her calm down on her own. 

Example

The other day we are in the store shopping for Christmas gifts. We both knew what we were there for. While walking she decides she must get a stuffed animal she spotted for someone we already bought for. This animal was huge and cost $90. We just got back from vacation and both have had to take time of from work, money is tight. She is going on and on about how she just has to get it and that we have the money to get it. It was impulsive and irresponsible because we still have others left to shop for. When she is saying this I looked at her and smirked while shaking my head. The message was we both know we should not get this and you saying we have money to get it is somewhat of a joke. She got mad and took off in the store. She started down her spiral path of anger. Do I know why she was mad? Yes she was mad because she wants to feel like she is strong, independent, and works hard so if she wanted to by it she could. I let her be mad and went about my business. She put the animal back and we left without it. When we were leaving the store I hugged her and said I am sorry I upset you it was not my intention. That was it on with our day. In the past I may have wanted to discuss with her why she was wrong, impulsive and not thinking in the best interest of our money. This goes back to question one. The man I want to be would be unphased by her anger and be able to remain positive through the entire experience. He would also be able to penetrate her with love and humor in those moments to get us back on track.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Do you atleast get hot makeup sex when she shuts off b!tchmode. Stand your ground dude, dont walk away, jab her back but dont lose your cool. Then just walk away.




No makeup sex when she is acting like a little girl, I’d rather not. Sometimes but that’s rare. Don’t lose my cool is the key element.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Nice progress!


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Your doing a good job of accepting your part in this and trying to move forward. Despite the position of your relationship now....your giving the effort to get your crap together...don't stop!

I almost NEVER read threads about anger ..... glad I stopped in on yours.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Talking to a friend of mine in a similar situation about some older married men in our lives reveals some interesting things. This friend feels the need to do many of the things that I have problems with. He will react to his woman’s anger or crazy behavior with his own anger or argument. He will wait for apologies that never come. He will feel wronged when she is acting like a little girl. When I shared with him my thoughts on this his reaction was he would never want to eat **** from his wife for his entire life. He felt as I must have in the past that if someone exhibits this kind of behavior that person must make it right. He felt that if he did not meet her anger with anger or by leaving she was more likely to do it again in the future. I think he is wrong. I think the more you can be like a rock and pick your battles the less this will effect your life in a negative way. I think people that act this way towards you will learn a couple of things over time. They will learn they can count on you to be there, unaffected, when they are acting like a little girl. They will learn you will not react to their anger so they may want to stop wasting their time getting angry. They will learn that when you do react or have a problem it’s serious because you rarely do so, you pick your battles carefully. One of the older married men in my life has reached expert level in this regard. I am sitting there talking to this man. His wife walks in the room and says “we are ready to eat are you going to come eat” he says “yes I will be right there” she says “**** you” and many more things on her way back to the kitchen. While this was all taking place he was telling me a story. At no point was he phased by her nasty comments. He continued to tell me the story like it never happened. After the story was complete we both went into the kitchen to eat like nothing even happened. My friend has a similar man in his life. It’s no surprise these men are both happily married for a very long time.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Nice to have someone in the same boat to bounce ideas with. Many people have zero support surrounding them.

she says “**** you” .... I may not have been able to help myself and would have replied with "Yes I am available".


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

I might have answered "**** you too dear" with a smile. Being told **** you is pretty disrespectful.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

jlg07 said:


> I might have answered "**** you too dear" with a smile. Being told **** you is pretty disrespectful.


Indeed...and in front of someone else at that. Finding that fine line between being in control and being passive can be tough.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Geez. I guess my view is different than the view of others.

My view is, if you are NOT already *stuck married* to someone who throws tantrums, acts like a child, and treats you disrespectfully, tells you "**** you" for no reason... there is no reason to continue a dating relationship with someone who does this.

My view is: terminate dating relationship, and look for a healthy partner who DOESN'T DO THIS STUFF.

There are people out there who didn't do this stuff on a regular basis. I so do not understand men who continue to remain dating women who have these sorts of personalities.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

jlg07 said:


> I might have answered "**** you too dear" with a smile. Being told **** you is pretty disrespectful.




You have to know the family to understand the way they talk to each other. It’s a bit comical 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Geez. I guess my view is different than the view of others.
> 
> My view is, if you are NOT already *stuck married* to someone who throws tantrums, acts like a child, and treats you disrespectfully, tells you "**** you" for no reason... there is no reason to continue a dating relationship with someone who does this.
> 
> ...




The example I gave was a long time married couple. I understand your point though.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Livvie said:


> Geez. I guess my view is different than the view of others.
> 
> My view is, if you are NOT already *stuck married* to someone who throws tantrums, acts like a child, and treats you disrespectfully, tells you "**** you" for no reason... there is no reason to continue a dating relationship with someone who does this.
> 
> ...


It wasn't his partner .....


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Mr.Married said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > Geez. I guess my view is different than the view of others.
> ...


I know it wasn't. I was stating my view and giving examples. I know all of them aren't exactly what OP deals with.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

I have been tested yet again. I walk in to pick everyone up and she is making us late to leave. My daughter is upstairs going back and forth with the kids because we are late, trying to get them out of the house. I go ask her if she is ready and tell her it’s time to leave so we are not late. She then says to me my daughter is upstairs “B1tching at everyone” I tell her that was mean and nasty and go to the car to wait. I keep things positive as I get the kids where they need to go with her in the passenger seat. She tries several time on the ride to suck me into an argument but I will not bite. I told her I will not talk about this in front of the kids and we can talk later on. In the car she says she is sorry for “getting snippy with me” not for what she said about my daughter. We arrive at the event for one of the kids, late. Her family shows up and she starts making plans to go to their house. This is what we have done for the last 4 nights. We discussed yesterday having a quiet relaxing night tonight so that is what I was expecting. Honestly I am just tired of going there every night and wanted a change of pace. It’s a loud house and I just want some piece and quiet. Also we planned out the day this AM. The plan was to make dinner at my house so I could get my clothes done (none left). When we get in the car from the event she is talking about having dinner quick at her house and then going to her family’s house. I asked what happened to our plan to make dinner at my house? Again she gets mad and says she will come over and make the dinner like we planned, like I am forcing her to do so. At this point I am starting to feel like this happens a lot and it irritates me. The something is we are constantly at her family’s house. In addition I thought we were going to have a nice relaxing night together. It feels like she will ditch our plans for her family at the drop of a hat. Not a good feeling. Even though I feel this I say nothing and remain calm for the ride home, quiet but calm. She storms into the house. I ask her if she would like some help getting things into the car before I drive home. She says no that she will do it herself. She comes over and is still being mean and nasty. I asked her if she could help me with something so we could talk alone. On the way there she says “here we go” in an exhausted way. I still do not get sucked in and we get alone to talk. I told her I am not happy with what she said about my daughter. She apologized for this but she is never apologetic she is saying it mad. In addition I told her I had planned with her to do something different tonight. She gets defensive and angry leaves the room and shuts the door. She continues to storm around the house. I am in the bedroom watching the game. One of the kids is in the shower, one is playing a game in the living room. She come back into the room she just left 20 minutes ago and closed the door and says “what are you going to sit in here all night and ignore us. Why did we come here?” I was on the phone with my friend at the time (the one from an earlier example) I told her I was on the phone and she said she did not care. After she says some stuff to try and provoke an argument without success she says “**** you” and closed the door again. I spent the remainder of the night playing with the kids in the bedroom. I let her know via text that she was being mean and nasty. I also let her know that speaking to me that way while I was on the phone with my friend was unacceptable and humiliating. Once dinner was done and we ate she packed up the kids and went to her family’s house, I did not. I shutdown a bit on the ride home from the event. I got withdrawn and quiet, this is my fault. In that moment I started to feel hurt. I was thinking about how it felt like I was forcing her to honor or plans, not a good feeling. I was also thinking about how we discussed on the way to her family’s house yesterday how I know we agreed to come but it would be nice if we could have a quiet night when we could. In addition we always go there every Sunday and that is tomorrow. Then one of the cousins has a birthday party Monday night at 6-7. We have our therapist appointment that same day at 8. Not sure if she plans on missing that also. The family is grieving from a loss. I am trying to be sympathetic to this. I have spent all of the last 5 days with them. I have taken everyday out of work and I was right there for her and her family. This was quite a test and aside from withdrawing a bit on the way home I think I passed. She already apologized for what she said about my daughter. I just wish she would honor our plans, my needs, and be the one to initiate the apology conversation. I feel like I am twisting her arm into doing these things. It does not feel good.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

So now she asked me to come over after she got home from her family’s house. I said I feel angry and disappointed by all that has taken place. More specifically what she has not addressed, saying **** you to me with my friend on the phone and the kids nearby. I would have hoped she would have just acknowledged what she did was wrong and own it, she did not. I told her I would just stay home. I know that I am waiting on an apology something that has proved to be a problem in the past. With that said, I feel like I chose my battles and this is one I chose. This is not ok in my family and her unwillingness to accept it is only prolonging things and making it worse. She says she is not a child and does not need to be told to own her ****ty behavior. That’s all well and good but I am not going to go hang out with her and pretend it’s all good, it’s not. She appreciates when I apologize when I make her upset, like I did the other day leaving the store. Then she will not do the same when she does something much much worse. She is saying things like when I am ready to communicate like an adult to let her know. It’s almost comical. I am deflecting her terrible behavior all day, she is throwing tantrums left and right like a little girl, then says crazy stuff like this. I am never going to bend over for her if she is berating me in front of my friend and kids. It’s crazy. I don’t want to have to force someone to treat me well by digging my heals in like this. It does not fell good. But I cannot allow this type of behavior in my family.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

You did better than you used to. But there was a lot of room for improvement there. One thing to remember is don't share with her how you are feeling, how she makes you feel, when you are trying to end one of these sh*t tests. Set a standard (I won't stay in the room when you cuss me out), prepare a consequence (leave the room), and then just follow through with the consequence. Trying to get her to talk it through makes you weak. No talking until she's done with the attitude.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

482 said:


> So now she asked me to come over after she got home from her family’s house. I said I feel angry and disappointed by all that has taken place. More specifically what she has not addressed, saying **** you to me with my friend on the phone and the kids nearby. I would have hoped she would have just acknowledged what she did was wrong and own it, she did not. I told her I would just stay home. I know that I am waiting on an apology something that has proved to be a problem in the past. With that said, I feel like I chose my battles and this is one I chose. This is not ok in my family and her unwillingness to accept it is only prolonging things and making it worse. She says she is not a child and does not need to be told to own her ****ty behavior. That’s all well and good but I am not going to go hang out with her and pretend it’s all good, it’s not. She appreciates when I apologize when I make her upset, like I did the other day leaving the store. Then she will not do the same when she does something much much worse. She is saying things like when I am ready to communicate like an adult to let her know. It’s almost comical. I am deflecting her terrible behavior all day, she is throwing tantrums left and right like a little girl, then says crazy stuff like this. I am never going to bend over for her if she is berating me in front of my friend and kids. It’s crazy. I don’t want to have to force someone to treat me well by digging my heals in like this. It does not fell good. But I cannot allow this type of behavior in my family.


Just start getting in the habit of saying no whenever her behavior is bad. No reasons, no sharing your feelings, just say no. It's like training a kid -when you behave, you get what you want. She'll figure it out eventually.

Oh and please break your posts up into paragraphs.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Your relationship with your girlfriend doesn't sound like it's much fun.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Livvie said:


> Your relationship with your girlfriend doesn't sound like it's much fun.




It’s rare to discuss the positive parts of relationships on TAM. Guess most want to discuss their perceived problems, me included. You are correct though when stuff like this happens it’s not fun. Will I ever be in a relationship where I never gave to deal with problems, I doubt it.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

If you want to put yourself through her drama that's one thing. But keep in mind that children absorb far more than parents think -- good and bad.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Openminded said:


> If you want to put yourself through her drama that's one thing. But keep in mind that children absorb far more than parents think -- good and bad.




I know it’s not good for the kids to be in the middle of this. I am trying to do a better job of not fighting in front of them. It sucks for them because they see her mad and do not understand why. I love all the kids so it is tough. When they see her mad or we are not talking to each other they start asking questions. All I can says is it’s adult stuff and end it at that. I do not want to start to discuss what is going on with her there. This would just initiate a fight between us in front of the kids. Also the kids start to pit against me saying things like why don’t you just apologize to mom? Why are you making her upset? Her kids will do this. My daughter stays out of it completely. I hate that the kids are witnessing this unhappy part of our relationship. 

FYI she has still not apologized for saying **** you to me last night. I am not initiating conversation with her or visiting her. I have already said all I need to say about this. She continues to try and provoke me into ignoring what she did and move on without her addressing it. I have no interest in doing that. This particular act of disrespect feels like a battle I must chose to take. I will not be treated this way by her or anyone else. She can either realize that and make it right or keep being mean and nasty, alone.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

Unfortunately, it won't matter as long as she continues acting the way she does. Her children want you to fix it by apologizing to her for anything that upsets her so it will go away. See where that puts you? Certainly not in a good place. She would have to want to change for your relationship to work and it doesn't appear that she does. My guess is she's been this way her entire life and people either put up wth her behavior or move on but she stays the same. Don't ever move in with her. At least now you can put physical distance between you and it's not 24/7. Obviously that will stop if you live with her.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Openminded said:


> Unfortunately, it won't matter as long as she continues acting the way she does. Her children want you to fix it by apologizing to her for anything that upsets her so it will go away. See where that puts you? Certainly not in a good place. She would have to want to change for your relationship to work and it doesn't appear that she does. My guess is she's been this way her entire life and people either put up wth her behavior or move on but she stays the same. Don't ever move in with her. At least now you can put physical distance between you and it's not 24/7. Obviously that will stop if you live with her.




I understand and agree we need things like this to stop before we move forward. We talked about marriage and living together quite some time ago on a regular basis, and it felt good. Once things like this started and continue to happen that vision is moving farther and farther away in my mind. Like you said who would want to be around someone who is acting this way 24/7.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

IIWY, just start the process for divorce and see what happens. You can always cancel the divorce down the road if she gets good therapy and changes.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

turnera said:


> IIWY, just start the process for divorce and see what happens. You can always cancel the divorce down the road if she gets good therapy and changes.



They aren't even married, have only been dating 3 years, and do not have children together. He's participating in this terrifically dysfunctional, unhealthy, crazy, and crazy-making relationship with his _girlfriend_.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Oops, forgot that. Jeez, man, just call it a learned lesson and move on.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

You are not married, the kindest thing you can do for you both is take a break... nothing less than 30 days.

Full no-contact.

Really... you need some space to look at this from a place that is not in or near any emotional tsunami because anyone who can issue a "**** you" (I can only guess, but pretty sure I get the gist) to you leaves the self-control realm and enters the intentional disrespect realm.

For 30 days, do nothing but love yourself more... you may look at suffering a different way after that.

The only way to cease drowning is to leave the water.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Or girlfriend--Does humor ever work?? SUPEEERRRR ANGRY!!


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

sunsetmist said:


> Or girlfriend--Does humor ever work??


I love this. I imagine my wife would say “I’ll have the soup”, right before she kills me.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

While you're tied down with this bull**** a better one is out there somewhere but you're too busy being hurt or kissing ass to find her.

Wake up


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> You are not married, the kindest thing you can do for you both is take a break... nothing less than 30 days.
> 
> Full no-contact.
> 
> ...




Not sure I could do what you are suggesting for one reason, the kids. The kids would be heartbroken if they did not see me for 30 days. 

Here is where things are now. She apologized in a real way for saying **** you after a day but immediately followed it up with more anger and argument. Saying I can just take or leave her and I am not there for her. She says this because when she said **** you to me I chose to not be around her because I do not want to be around her when she does things like this. I have explained this but it does not help subside her anger and nasty behavior. 

Last night we had the therapy session and it did not go well for her. She was telling me in the afternoon that if she could come she would be late because of the cousins birthday party. Also she said she would be coming to get his opinion on her leaving therapy because she sees no point in going. This would be the 2nd time I have herd her say she wanted to quit therapy. We went over our last couple of fights from vacation and the recent **** you fight. She called me a liar for describing things exactly how they happened, because it was embarrassing for her I’m sure. To answer her question or therapist recommend we go back to weekly meetings from the monthly meetings we have now. He asked her if she wanted to be with me and do weekly meetings again, her answer was she did not know. He asked us to discuss it and let him know. After the session I asked her if she would like to discuss it and she said no then went home. 

If she will not continue to work on our relationship with our therapist then I will leave her. There is no way it will ever work without that.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

482 said:


> Saying I can just take or leave her and I am not there for her. She says this because when she said **** you to me I chose to not be around her because I do not want to be around her when she does things like this. I have explained this but it does not help subside her anger and nasty behavior.


I'm glad you're learning. Question, though - you say you can't leave her for 30 days cos of the kids. Then you say if she doesn't work on this you will leave her. What's the difference? Sometimes the preemptive choice (30 days) can EFFECT a solution. 

But I highlight the above for something important, grasshopper: She can SAY you're not there when she cusses you out all she wants. That's not your monkeys, not your business. She's free to THINK anything she wants. YOUR job is to know your boundaries, explain them once, and then enact your consequences (dis-engaging) for when she crosses the boundary (anger). You don't do this to TEACH her anything, you do it to preserve your sanity and to preserve your love for her. 

Because you WILL fall out of love with her if she continues to abuse you and you continue to stand there and take it. 

So stop looking at leaving the room (or whatever action you take as your consequence) as something to fix the situation or to get her to change, or even understand why you're doing it; it's not. It's just what you do to protect yourself. 

Did I tell you the progressive action story? The one where you leave the room for 15 minutes and come back and if she's still cussing you out, you leave the house for 30 minutes, etc.? 

It's really effective, for no other reason than to cause you to make a choice in the end.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

She's showing you -- and telling you -- who she is and you keep hoping that's not the case. Believe it. She doesn't want to change. Does.Not. If she even attempts it, it will be because she feels backed into a corner and she will likely be full of resentment and bitterness toward you. What she wants is for you to shut up and let her behave however badly she chooses. You can keep trying but you won't get anywhere as long as she sees you as the problem. She's probably always been this way and people cycle in and out of her life because of it. You're just the latest.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You think the kids will be broken-hearted if they don't see you for 30 days? Try the rest of their lives because that's where this is headed.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> I'm glad you're learning. Question, though - you say you can't leave her for 30 days cos of the kids. Then you say if she doesn't work on this you will leave her. What's the difference? Sometimes the preemptive choice (30 days) can EFFECT a solution.
> 
> But I highlight the above for something important, grasshopper: She can SAY you're not there when she cusses you out all she wants. That's not your monkeys, not your business. She's free to THINK anything she wants. YOUR job is to know your boundaries, explain them once, and then enact your consequences (dis-engaging) for when she crosses the boundary (anger). You don't do this to TEACH her anything, you do it to preserve your sanity and to preserve your love for her.
> 
> ...




Guess the 30 day thing would be tough for the kids because they would be dragged into the middle of it in the form of taking part in our separation. They would want to know all the details. They may wonder and have questions about if they had something to do with it. This is all much different than us breaking up for good. 

In the scenario where we break up for good they would be told we did not work out and it’s over. It would be tough on them but at least they would not have any questions and be strung along. 

In addition I hate the thought of hurting the kids with this stuff. Her son needs me and I love him. His father is a complete idiot and far from a positive male role model. Her daughter is also in love with me and I treat her like a little princess. 

Everything else you have said I completely agree with. I know I need to continue to reinforce the message that this stuff is not ok. 

When I speak to other married men they all seem to echo some variant of this type of behavior in their wife’s. She get angry all the time sometimes she flys off the handle. Some say there is swearing and disrespect some say there is not. My take on all this is you get what you allow in your life. With that said will I find this with any relationship regardless of the person I choose to be with? I have to believe that is not true and some just resolve issues with mutual respect and understanding.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Openminded said:


> She's showing you -- and telling you -- who she is and you keep hoping that's not the case. Believe it. She doesn't want to change. Does.Not. If she even attempts it, it will be because she feels backed into a corner and she will likely be full of resentment and bitterness toward you. What she wants is for you to shut up and let her behave however badly she chooses. You can keep trying but you won't get anywhere as long as she sees you as the problem. She's probably always been this way and people cycle in and out of her life because of it. You're just the latest.




I hear you and can confirm she does see me as the problem. That is a consistent message I get from her every time there is a problem. Once in a great while she will apologize after some time but never without trying to simultaneously tell me all the things she perceives causes the issue that I did. She will often switch things around to try and lay blame on me. For example we will have a disagreement about x on day one then y on day two. She will focus on and drill into me about y on day two while failing to realize that things started on day one with x. This is typically because she will do something and lose her control. I react withdrawn because I am not interested in interacting with this type of behavior. X is her anger and y is my reaction to it. 

I know you are saying she is showing me who she is and I should believe it but this is hard to swallow. I wonder if all this comes from her feeling insecure about my commitment to her because we have discussed marriage but not got engaged. It’s also hard because our lives are so intertwined with our families, kids, personal life etc. I know if it continues to be like this without any forward progress I will have no choice but to leave. I am just not sure we have tried hard enough yet for me to feel like that is the only option. Possibly continued therapy will help address these issue. Or it may amplify them and we will implode.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> Did I tell you the progressive action story? The one where you leave the room for 15 minutes and come back and if she's still cussing you out, you leave the house for 30 minutes, etc.?



Not yet, I’d like to know more.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

So it goes like this: You pick a boundary, and a consequence. The easy one to start with is yelling; could be cussing at you, could be blaming you, could be throwing things, whatever (you'll eventually have a whole load of boundaries). You also could put them together (no angry belittling, blaming or yelling), but that's more subjective and she could try to argue her way out of it; stick with one issue at a time for now.

Boundary: I won't allow you to yell at me anymore. Consequence: If you yell, I'll leave your vicinity. 

You can tell her that the first time. She yells, you say "I don't deserve to be yelled at; I'll talk to you again when you can talk without yelling" and you walk out of the room and go stay in another room for 15 minutes. When you come back in the room, she'll either drop it or she'll be waiting to spring on you again so she can 'win.' If she picks up with the yelling (you can discuss as long as she's not raising her voice), you calmly turn away and leave the house and go for a 30-minute walk. 

When you come back, if she picks it up again and starts yelling, you grab your keys and go for a drive. When you come back after an hour, see what she does. Hopefully she'll have given up by then and the rest of the night will be uneventful. But if not, you get some overnight stuff, your keys, and you go stay at a hotel or a friend's house for the night. 

When you come back the next day, rinse and repeat, only if she's still there waiting to jump your case, you without a word, go get TWO night's stuff and go sleep somewhere else, and come back in two days. Then three. Then four. 

Hopefully, if you've been gone for a whole week and she STILL will not climb down off that warhorse and insists on screaming at you, you'll realize at that point that there's nothing left to salvage, that she is so out of control, so determined to 'win' or have the last word or beat you down that she can't even LEARN from this ridiculous display, there's nothing to save.

And of course throughout this, you DO NOT ANSWER YOUR PHONE.

The beauty of this is that without you there, she's not getting her 'fix' - getting to feel better about herself by abusing you. So she has nothing to do but sit there and wait and think. At first, she's going to think she'll corral you like she always has, and it'll be easy to get you back to being cowed. But by escalating the time, she many not understand why, but subconsciously she is seeing real CONSEQUENCES for her action - not being able to carry it on. And escalating shows her that you're losing patience for even dealing with her, that you're willing to be gone indefinitely as opposed to dealing with her sh*t. 

The other beauty is that your self-imposed consequence - what YOU do for YOURSELF to protect yourself from her grievous action: leaving - is something she has absolutely no control over. This whole thing is a power struggle and until she sees she can no longer control you, that YOU will take action, she'll have a choice to make: Keep trying to control everything with her anger, or step back and realize she'll have to give being a decent human being a try. 

She's probably never had to control herself before, so this won't be easy - IF she decides to give it a try to keep you. You'll have to keep doing this dance - the escalating leaving thing - many times, for it to become new habit for her. Kind of like when you spend a whole night putting your kid back in the bed to break his spirit of getting out of bed - tough night but the rest of the nights will make it worth the sacrifice. 

But if you're determined to stay, it will be worth it in the long run.

ETA: The trick to this is that you simply MUST not allow yourself to get drawn into he said/she said. Be willing to discuss issues calmly. But DO NOT reply if she goes to the 'you left me! you're a horrible person for leaving the house!' crap. That's her choice to see it that way, and you have no business getting into the weeds. If anything, you just say "I told you I won't participate if you yell. It's your choice how this goes." And leave it at that. If she keeps trying to blame, you simply say 'We've been over this, I won't discuss it anymore.'

But you have to be strong. Not get sucked in. Not feel like you have to defend yourself. The trick is to tell her upfront what will happen and then, when she does the wrong thing, SHE brought about you leaving all by herself because she already knew what would happen.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You're talking to the wrong men out there -- the ones who have wives just like she is -- and they're reinforcing for you that she's "normal". She absolutely is not. I don't know of anyone who has had someone like her in their lives long-term. Why would they?

If she wants a commitment from you surely she's smart enough to realize this is not the way to get it. Feeling insecure is not what her behavior is about. It's about acting however she pleases and expecting you to let her do it. 

You realize she has zero respect for you, right?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I agree. I can only think of two men whose wives are that way. And they only do it when they don't respect you, don't fear you will leave them.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Openminded said:


> You're talking to the wrong men out there -- the ones who have wives just like she is -- and they're reinforcing for you that she's "normal". She absolutely is not. I don't know of anyone who has had someone like her in their lives long-term. Why would they?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good to hear on the others, maybe I am just talking to the wrong people. A more accurate statement is when she gets angry she has no respect. When we are doing well she has tons of respect for me and I am well aware of how to identify that. With that said as soon as she gets angry it all goes out the window, it's attack mode time. Is it right or ok, no. Do I think she has NO respect for me, no.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> So it goes like this: You pick a boundary, and a consequence. The easy one to start with is yelling; could be cussing at you, could be blaming you, could be throwing things, whatever (you'll eventually have a whole load of boundaries). You also could put them together (no angry belittling, blaming or yelling), but that's more subjective and she could try to argue her way out of it; stick with one issue at a time for now.
> 
> Boundary: I won't allow you to yell at me anymore. Consequence: If you yell, I'll leave your vicinity.
> 
> ...


Thank you


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> So it goes like this: You pick a boundary, and a consequence. The easy one to start with is yelling; could be cussing at you, could be blaming you, could be throwing things, whatever (you'll eventually have a whole load of boundaries). You also could put them together (no angry belittling, blaming or yelling), but that's more subjective and she could try to argue her way out of it; stick with one issue at a time for now.
> 
> Boundary: I won't allow you to yell at me anymore. Consequence: If you yell, I'll leave your vicinity.
> 
> ...




Well I did this for the first time tonight and it did not go as bad as I thought it would. I thought for sure I would make it to a day on the first run. I made it to the 3rd break at 1 hour then came back. We talked a bit more at that point but she did not get crazy. Did we discuss real issues in a way we could really hear each other and resolve things? No but let’s count this as a small victory and hope for better results next time. After I figured out she just wanted to argue and not really discuss real issues in a way we could hear each other I just stopped talking. I could see she was sitting there festering but rather than erupting in anger again she just went to bed. 

To be 100% honest she did not take it well at all when I described to her what I will be doing from this point on. She started in about me abandoning her, not caring about her, etc. I continued to send the message that this type of behavior is not acceptable and I will no longer stick around for it. I also described that this is also on her, if we can communicate without all the anger then I will not be going anywhere. We will either communicate without all of that or I will start taking my steps. She also said that this will not work for her and my response was that is your decision to make but this is what I will be doing either way. 

We will see......


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

She actually said it doesn't work for her to communicate without all of the anger? That's pretty ballsy.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Livvie said:


> She actually said it doesn't work for her to communicate without all of the anger? That's pretty ballsy.




The part she says will not work for her is the new plan not the anger. She equates it to being abandon and not cared for. I let her know it’s her choice to make. In other words she has control over this also. If she does not turn into a anger monster I will be right there listening. If she decides she would like to leave this relationship because of my new rules, again her choice. If she can not control herself my steps are clear, like it or not.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

i'm thinking she does not know how to function without occasionally getting angry and going off. It is part of who she is--probably learned in her FOO. This learned behavior CAN be unlearned. She enjoys the energy, heat, verbal sparring, fight. 

You are the opposite. Also congrats big time on doing this!! She will miss the status quo--fun fights with a chance to win! Don't let her talk of abandonment affect you. She will come up with other ploys, but you should be leaving, not responding to her new approach to tangle...


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

sunsetmist said:


> i'm thinking she does not know how to function without occasionally getting angry and going off. It is part of who she is--probably learned in her FOO. This learned behavior CAN be unlearned. She enjoys the energy, heat, verbal sparring, fight.
> 
> 
> 
> You are the opposite. Also congrats big time on doing this!! She will miss the status quo--fun fights with a chance to win! Don't let her talk of abandonment affect you. She will come up with other ploys, but you should be leaving, not responding to her new approach to tangle...




What does FOO mean?


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

FOO___Family of Origin


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Sorry--this may be helpful:

AAMOF = as a matter of fact
AP = Affair Partner
ASAP = as soon as possible
b/c = because
BAK = back at keyboard
BBFN = bye bye for now
BBL = be back later
BBS = be back soon
BF = boyfriend or best friend
BFN = bye for now
BH = Betrayed Husband
BIL = brother-in-law
BK = back
BRB = be right back
BRBGGP = be right back gotta go potty
BS = Betrayed Spouse 
BSC = Bat sh*t crazy
BTDT = been there, done that
BTW = by the way
BW = Betrayed Wife
CRAFT = can't remember a fricking thing
CRS = can't remember stuff (or use your imagination for S)
CSA = Childhood Sexual Abuse
CU = see you
CUL8R = see you later
CWIM = see what I mean
CYA = see ya
DB = dear boyfriend
DC = dear child
DD = dear daughter
D-Day = divorce day -or- affair Discovery Day
DF = dear fiancée
DG = dear girlfriend
DH = dear husband
DS = dear son
DSD = dear stepdaughter
DSS = dear stepson
DW = dear wife
EA = emotional affair
exH = ex husband
exW = ex wife
FIL = father-in-law
FOO = Family of Origin
FTR = for the record
FWH = former wayward husband
FWIW = for what it's worth
FWW = former wayward wife
FYI = for your information
GF = girlfriend
GMTA = great minds think alike
GNO = Girls Night Out
GP = general practitioner
GTG = got to go
HD = High drive (sexual)
HTH = HTH hope this helps
IBRB = I’ll be right back
IC = Individual counseling 
IDK = I don't know
IIWY = if I were you
IIRC = if I recall correctly
ILYNILWYA = "I love you, not in love with you anymore." 
IMHO = in my humble opinion
IMNSHO = in my not so humble opinion
IMO = in my opinion
ISSF = I’m so sexually frustrated
J/J = just joking
J/K = just kidding
KISA = Knight in Shining Armor
KWIM = know what I mean
LD = low drive (sexual drive)
LMAO = laughing my ass off
LOL = laughing out loud
LOL = laughing out loud
LOLROF = laughing out load, rolling on floor
LTNS = long time no see
MC = marriage counseling
MIL = mother-in-law
MLC = mid-life crisis
MYOB = mind your own business
NC = No Contact
NDE = near death experience 
NE = any
NMS = not my style
NMSAA = not my style at all
NP = no problem
OM = other man
OMG = oh my gosh
ONS = one night stand
OP = original poster
OSF = OSF Opposite Sex Friends
OT = off topic
OTOH = ON THE OTHER HAND
OW = other woman
PA = physical affair
PA = (sometimes) passive aggressive
PIV = penis in vagina referring to "traditional" sex
PM = private message
POV = POV point of view
PP = previous poster
PUA = Pick Up Artist
ROF = rolling on floor
ROFL = rolling on floor laughing
ROFLMAO = rolling on floor laughing my a** off
ROFLOL = rolling on floor laughing out loud
ROTF = rolling on the floor
SAHD = stay-at-home dad
SAHM = stay-at-home mom
SAHP = stay-at-home parent
SIL = sister-in-law
SNAFU = situation normal all fouled up
SO = significant other
SOL = sh** out of luck
SOS = same old stuff (or use you imagination)
STBX = soon to be ex
SWMBO = She Who Must Be Obeyed
TAM = Talk About Marriage
T/J = thread jack
TIA = thanks in advance
TMI = too much information
TOM = the other man
TOW = the other woman
TTFN = tata for now
TTYL = talk to you later
UR = your or you're
VAR = voice activated recorder
W/E = whatever
WAH = work at home
WAW = Walk Away Wife
WB = welcome back
WH = Wayward Husband
WOH = work out of the home
WS = Wayward Spouse
WTG = way to go
WW = Wayward Wife
YW = your welcome


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

482 said:


> Well I did this for the first time tonight and it did not go as bad as I thought it would. I thought for sure I would make it to a day on the first run. I made it to the 3rd break at 1 hour then came back. We talked a bit more at that point but she did not get crazy.


Excellent job. The reason this works is it's subconsciously telling her the longer she acts like a *****, the worse the consequence is (the longer between seeing you). She probably isn't aware of it, but it hits home. 



> Did we discuss real issues in a way we could really hear each other and resolve things? No but let’s count this as a small victory and hope for better results next time. After I figured out she just wanted to argue and not really discuss real issues in a way we could hear each other I just stopped talking. I could see she was sitting there festering but rather than erupting in anger again she just went to bed.


This is a great learning experience for BOTH of you. It helps her realize it pays off to compromise, not just blindly push for her own way (and yes, she learned this in her FOO dysfunction). It helps you pull back and observe her behavior so that you aren't just blindly trying to STAY; there needs to be a reason for you to stay, you have to have YOUR needs being met. You talk a lot about what her kids need, your kids, but not a lot about what YOU need. So this is a great exercise for you to put yourself first and still see that you can have a happy life. 



> To be 100% honest she did not take it well at all when I described to her what I will be doing from this point on. She started in about me abandoning her, not caring about her, etc.


That is most definitely from her FOO dysfunction; either that or she's just spoiled and used to getting her way by guilting people; either way, it needs to change. Again, she's free to THINK you're abandoning her but you know it's not true



> I continued to send the message that this type of behavior is not acceptable and I will no longer stick around for it.


A side benefit of doing this is that it causes her to respect you more. And when a woman respects her man, she loves him more and wants to please him more. It just may take her a while to learn this new, healthy way of dealing with things.



> I also described that this is also on her, if we can communicate without all the anger then I will not be going anywhere. We will either communicate without all of that or I will start taking my steps. She also said that this will not work for her and my response was that is your decision to make but this is what I will be doing either way.
> 
> We will see......


She's not here getting help so it all seems sudden and strange, so it makes sense for her to say it won't work. That's ok. She can learn. Just like you're learning. Better days ahead, 482. 

Side benefit? Her kids are learning healthy dynamics and will be less likely to turn out like her current ways. Your kids are learning how to grow and change and seek solutions.

Anyway, excellent work, 482. You may want to pre-pack an overnight bag, though. If she senses you're leaving for the night, she may escalate her actions and get physical, to try to get more control back.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

sunsetmist said:


> FOO___Family of Origin




Thank you for that and the list. 

This is 100% a factor. She has a large family and they get together often. They will do anything for one another except discuss how they feel or communicate without some form of argument and or yelling. They get together a minimum of one a week and the house is like a nut house. It is very often they are yelling at each other and cussing one another out. All I can hope is that she can break free from this type of communication when she is not talking to them. For instance when we are talking it would be a breath of fresh air to be able to hear her calmly or venerably express how she is feeling. This almost never happens.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> there needs to be a reason for you to stay, you have to have YOUR needs being met. You talk a lot about what her kids need, your kids, but not a lot about what YOU need. So this is a great exercise for you to put yourself first and still see that you can have a happy life.
> 
> 
> 
> Anyway, excellent work, 482. You may want to pre-pack an overnight bag, though. If she senses you're leaving for the night, she may escalate her actions and get physical, to try to get more control back.



You are correct about my needs not being met. I do need to focus more on making sure they are. Discussing my needs seem to net a similar reaction, anger. Maybe this new found process will help allow us to discuss them in a better way. 

No need for a bag we both currently have our own homes about 5 minutes away. I don’t think she would ever get physical. 

Thank you for all your help and kind words. 

We have been going to therapy for a while. Things were better when they were once a week. We switched to once a month because things were going well then it got bad. I am switching back to once a week and hopefully she will decide to come. If not I do not see much hope for us. I think having the accountability of explain to the therapist what happened helps stop things from getting bad. No one wants to explain to a professional how they acted like an asshat.


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## happiness27 (Nov 14, 2012)

.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

Think of what Turnera has suggested as a kind of 'tough love.' It gets great reviews from those who have learned its lessons. However, when one is in the middle of the work, few like it. The hot tempered one has a tendency to attack unfairly with threats and false guilt.

Having a 'hot' temper is one of many traits that cannot be corrected or eliminated by co-operation. If a hot temper seems to be effective to cower or move people, that behavior will continue.

Trying to help one who is hot tempered requires calm and the use of effective negative consequences--such as removing yourself and her fun. A consequence is a 'penalty' or restriction. If you rescue the person once, you will have to do it again and maybe again. If the easy-to-show anger person is shown that others are willing to 'cover the costs' of his or her behavior, the behavior is then reinforced. 

This kind of tough love is hard on both parties. You want to help or go easy at certain times, but aren't when you deflect the consequences that teach valuable lessons.

So, good for your plan, but now it is important to carry through EVERY TIME!


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Not sure if this will help you, but the 'vision' of the man I'm thinking of when I describe this stuff might be what you see when you read the book Married Man Sex Life Primer - what we call MMSLP. Take a look at it.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> Not sure if this will help you, but the 'vision' of the man I'm thinking of when I describe this stuff might be what you see when you read the book Married Man Sex Life Primer - what we call MMSLP. Take a look at it.




I have read that book, several times. I think the author was a poster on this site. Great book


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Great! Then what do you consider the model man?


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> Great! Then what do you consider the model man?




Not 100% sure what you mean when you ask what I consider the model man. The question brings to mind another book, models attract women through honesty. When I read MMSLP I had lots of time to myself. Because I did I would often take notes as I read updating my notes as my view on what I was reading changed. I could never do this today. Now I can only catch audiobooks in the car, no notes. Here is my notes from this book last time I took them.

Part one what she really wants 

1 Body agenda 

Our bodies run the show. The rationalization hamster and cheating. Body agenda. Whatever is good for making babies is sexy psychologically. Cheaters act like crack addicts due to the dopamine. ILYBINILWY says cheating. It says I oxytocin you but I dopamine him. It means cheating or soon to be. Concealed ovulation and the link to cheating due to high sex drive, sperm warfare blockers, runners, and killers. Semen is good for women. Attraction is not a choice! 
Testosterone - raw sexual desire, strippers example 
Dopamine - in love feeling, crazy obsession, reward system in the brain. Food, sex drugs triggered. 
Oxytocin and vasopressin - pair bonding, safety 

2 Alpha and Beta Balance

The time before writing, all alpha ofcourse. Information age. Alpha and beta male traits. The betization of husbands. Finding the alpha beta male balance. Bad boys and nice guys. Growing into wholeness being the balance of alpha and beta that works in your relationship. If not she may find the balance in more than one man. 

3 Alpha Male Traits

Alpha - Attraction – Dopamine (in love feeling) = Physical body, semen and genes, peacocking and preselection (other women's interest), male interests, alpha of group, cool and confident, one track mind - pig, 

4 Beta Male Traits

Beta - Comfort - Oxytocin in women and Vasopressin in men money, potential, nest management, cooking, fidelity integrity and trust in the relationship, showing appreciation, affectionate caring, orgasim

5 Sex Rank

Pick a number from 1-10. Divergent sex rank leads to relationship failure. Displays of low and high value. Preselection. Female sex rank is more fluid based on sexual receptivity and appearance. Male sex rank is more stable and can grow over time because it's based on things like social status and work income. Female calibration to male. If the make rank is low expect her response to also be low. If it's high expect it to be high. She will fluctuate to match your rank. Orbiters - lower sex rank people after the higher sex rank person (a crowd). Individual sex rank via biology - skewing the sex rank based on biology, smelling a 9 when everyone sees a 7, biology at work. Old boyfriends and the clear biological compatibility. Unbalanced sex ratio (numbers only availability 5 boys and 40 girls ex) marriage does not end sex rank issues. Understanding sex rank as leverage. 

Part Two

6 The Male Action Plan

Introduction to the MAP. About changing you not her. It may not work in your current relationship in fact it may end it. A sexless marriage is cheating. Why men get so agitated about not having sex - biology at work. How sexless marriages play out - endless misery or cheating or divorce or sexual marriage. Stop tolerating the intolerable. Stop talking and start taking action - move towards happiness, don't be an emotional hostage, stop pursuing her. Stop begging for sex - its a serious display of low value and submission. Realize she may have no interest in solving the problem. You be the change - boost your rank. No quick fixes for men. Correct your weak areas first. Whoever has the higher sex rank is in charge of the relationship. There are limits. A 6 will not be a 10. Attractive to all women means. Your wife may want you to change but does not want to ask, that's not you being dominant its her being dominant. Failing to do the MAP is a risk.

7 getting Control of Your Health

A secretly disappointed princess jaba the hut, sex is physical. Physical fitness creates confidence, women are turned on by strapping men, Increasing testosterone (eat better, decrease body fat, eat meat, lift weights, limit alcohol, sleep better, get sexually turned on, omega 3, competition, dominate someone) Gym Gym Gym , Semen production. Supplement joint complex, multivitiman, omega 3 oil, protein. Pitting your SO against you with bad semen. SSRI meds can kill off sex drive. Personal hygiene 

8 Instigate Isolate Escalate 

Instigation - don't wait for her you make the move, display high value, look attractive, 
Isolation - be playfully mean, get her alone, move to a second location, leverage her isolation anxiety with surprise. Text her, keep her secrets. 
Escalate - touch her, kiss her, always be closing, ignore anything that doesn't help you close. Plan the logistics of the seduction. Plan the sex

9 Captain and the first officer

Women sexually respond to dominant men. Men are taller than women. Women are sexually attracted to men more dominant than themselves. Unlearning that a male being dominant is evil. The captain and the first officer model. Wives want to be the first officer. Captain means being more responsible. How do you know if your wife is submissive? Is she happy to complete reasonable requests, do things nice on her own. Where do I find a submissive wife? 4 out of 5 are for the right guy. Be alpha and watch. Alpha of the group, kids and all. Family discipline is self discipline. Discipline with kids sets the tone for discipline for your wife. Controlling the kids with controlled choices. Ice cream or actions. Act don't react, take some time if necessary to make sure you are not contributing to the escalation. Sit at the head of the table. 

10 Nice guy with a hard edge 

The betatization trap - being too much beta and drying up th evagina fast. Fitness or **** tests Pass them! Say no. What is and is not a fitness test. We are not having sext because you did x y and z vs we are not having sex because I an ill or don't feel good. The second date rule. If what she just did happened on the second date would there be a third? If the answer is no its a fitness test.
Nice guys actively strategize to be taken advantage of - The nice card and the mean card. Nice guys always play the nice card this leaves the wife to pick what one she will play with no consequence. 
Why nice guys are addicted to the wrong strategy - They keep laying on the nice for drip fed sex not realizing they are doomed to it getting worse. People pleasing decreased sexual interest by always displaying low value. 
The tit for tat solution - You play the nice card and so will I. You play the mean card and so will I until you show me the nice card. 
Be a nice guy with a hard edge - take her fitness test (mean card) and respond to it with the same (mean card), test passed. 

11 Behavior modification 101

Everything is a behavior Reward positive behavior, do not reward negative behavior be disappointed with rejection but move on with your day and remain confident unless this is a regular thing. Catch her being good, recognize when she is trying. Highly problematic behavior - late to the movies example of leaving her behind. The natural consequences can be allowed to take place, Want to not get out of bed lose your job. I'm not going to take part in that process or related arguments.
The golden rule of sex rank is “never force an ultimatum on your wife if she is hotter than you

12 Don't be a chump

Don’t do things for sex knowing you will never get it. 
Shrek the donkey and princess fiona
Im shrek
My woman is the princess 
The rest are donkeys 
I dont help donley's only the princess
Shrek the donkey and princess fiona for screening women
Let the know about the princess plan vs the donkey plan

13 Sexual Judo

Your wife has a sex drive - Can you bring it out of her or will someone else. 
Protection shields - Im tired, tomorrow, have a headache, etc. 
Sexual Judo - run the MAP rather than push sex on an uninterested party
Her orgasm is not your responsibility - she needs to get it or ask for what she needs to get it. 
How she orgasms best is up to her - type of sex oral or vaginal, position, etc.
Allow her to not orgasm - pump and dump sometimes. Ask in advance even. 
Only about 30% of what you try works in bed - learn from each other always. 
Playing ***** hero 4 isn't fun anymore - Take the structure out of your moves with her. Be present and feel it. Don’t become her favorite vibrator. 
Lose control with her - make it all about you and do exactly what you like and want to do. 
Make some noise when you orgasm. Draw attention to her sexual interest 

14 Variety is the spice of wife 

Girls like bad boys because girls want to be bad too. How to get her to dress more sexy, you do it first. How to get her to use sex toys, get some for you. How to get her to watch porn with you. What she means by saying Im bored. It means im not getting my submissive itch scratched. Be unpredictable with sex. Have a plan and be assertive. Try a rough sex experiment. Breaking down the sexually shy wife using some beta and time. 

15 The ovulation game 

Women aren't random. 
Week 1 menses - (day 1 menses starts lasts 3-7 days) not feeling very sexy don't try for sex. Good time for blowjobs and handjobs. Beta and Alpha mix
Week 2 - normal middle of the road not crazy sexual. Beta and Alpha mix
Week 3 - ovulation (typically day 13-15) surge of sexual interest, change in dress and response. All Alpha 
Week 4 - PMS drop in sexual interest typically around day 21 great Beta time 
When she initiates sex take her good every time.

16 Timelines for the MAP

Work on the worst problems first. Phase one your sex rank is lower. Phase 2 your sex rank is equal. Phase three your sex rank is higher. Phase 4 Stating your intentions clearly. Stage 5 Start distancing. Stage 6 the ultimatum. Phase 7 your new life and maybe new wife. 
Part 3 the sexy moves 

17 Kissing 

Kissing sends testerone, do it. The ten second kiss daily. Locking in her kiss, gentel pull in from her jean pockets, etc. How to make her stop talking, kiss her. Cleavage pull kiss move. Kiss / hold her neck it's a clear dominance display to hold someone's neck. Give oral, testosterone. 

18 Just bust a move

Ask for nothing and you shall receive it in abundance. Play with women all the time - your wife will benefit from the confidence it provides. Practice asking women out - the false time constraint, Playfully deny interest in them, don't offer to pay. Ask as a man going his own way - “I'm going for coffee want to come”. Dont care what women think of you just mess with them a bit - I notice you but im not affected by you. Own the transition from living room to bedroom

19 Man about the house

Work the L spot (laundry) surprise her with a beta move not often done by you. Fix broken stuff in the house. Get her to cut your hair. Be a tool man. Feed the family something special. Ask for her special dish and complement her for making it. Clean the kitchen

20 Playful sex

The shower move. Tease her in the shower then ask her to leave so you can finish washing up. The napoleon, bj, her on top then missionary. Ask for a handjob massage with some good lotion. Put a pillow under her butt in missionary. Drink Pineapple juice to improve the taste and smell of cum. Trim your nails. Return the favor - 30% of what you do works and what is great for someone may suck for you. Make the bed squeak - go hard and get it noisy, she will respond. Cum on her breasts make sex the default assumption - the jedi mind trick. Sweeten the deal - keep it playful and happy and keep suggesting things to get her to say yes, operating with the default assumption that she wants to be laid but is just holding out for more pleasure. 

21 Words of seduction 

Saying I love you and describing why. Speak her love language - the paper with the 10 things I would do if I was crazy in love with you and the 10 things I would want you to do if you were crazy in love with me then compare to find sweet spots. Do these pants make my ass look big? I don't know I would have to see your ass with them off. Talk dirty to her - Find the dirty words she likes to be called and use them sometimes. Use post it notes and love letters. 

22 Sext Messages 

Same room texting. Change your name in her phone.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Holy crap. Are you an engineer or something?

No, here's what I meant: If you were to picture an image of a family man, a complete man who has everything, what would he look like?

My take: He's confident, proud of himself, sure of himself, knows he can be vulnerable when he needs to be but will still make choices based on what's right. He may be afraid of losing someone he loves, and he'll fight for that person, but he won't compromise his values to keep that person, because that's the wrong thing to do but also because he knows he'll be all right, whether that person wants to be with him or not. He can laugh at himself, he doesn't anger easily, he doesn't let insecurities rule his world or his choices. 

Stuff like that.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> Holy crap. Are you an engineer or something?
> 
> No, here's what I meant: If you were to picture an image of a family man, a complete man who has everything, what would he look like?
> 
> ...




LMAO, yes. 

Also everything you described sounds like how I would have answered if I was not busy over analyzing the question, lol.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Woke up this morning and she decided she wanted to talk. What she wanted to talk about was how what I was doing (described above by Turnera) is making her feel abandoned and unloved. I reinforced that I acknowledge her feelings but this is what I will be doing from now on. I said again that I will not stick around for the mean and nasty behavior. I explained that if she could just talk to me in a respectful way we would never have to do this again. She then got all worked up thrashing around my house a bit on her own and no longer taking place in a conversation with me. After some time of her being in the other room she came out, said not one word, and went home. It seems she wants to continue to test my resolve on this boundary.

Also another interesting thing is that throughout this entire new process she has never wanted to talk about my needs in this relationship. I have problems and unfulfilled needs but they do not seem to be taken seriously. If I ever do get to tell her what my problems are they are dismissed or taken as a personal insult it seems. She will get defensive and take it almost like a personal attack. Because of this I rarely feel like my needs are heard. I rarely feel like they are a priority in any way. That needs to change.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

482 said:


> Woke up this morning and she decided she wanted to talk. What she wanted to talk about was how what I was doing (described above by Turnera) is making her feel abandoned and unloved. I reinforced that I acknowledge her feelings but this is what I will be doing from now on. I said again that I will not stick around for the mean and nasty behavior. I explained that if she could just talk to me in a respectful way we would never have to do this again. She then got all worked up thrashing around my house a bit on her own and no longer taking place in a conversation with me. After some time of her being in the other room she came out, said not one word, and went home. It seems she wants to continue to test my resolve on this boundary.
> 
> Also another interesting thing is that throughout this entire new process she has never wanted to talk about my needs in this relationship. I have problems and unfulfilled needs but they do not seem to be taken seriously. If I ever do get to tell her what my problems are they are dismissed or taken as a personal insult it seems. She will get defensive and take it almost like a personal attack. Because of this I rarely feel like my needs are heard. I rarely feel like they are a priority in any way. That needs to change.


Great job sticking to your plan! It's good to let her know you are NOT abandoning her -- when she pulls this crap, she is actually abandoning YOU and your relationship. SHE is the one driving you away -- you are not leaving willingly. She needs to understand that.

As for YOUR needs not getting fulfilled, I know you get along with the kids great, but they will grow up and you will be with HER -- if you are not happy now, do you think you will be in the future if you can't get this resolved?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

And you are holding you boundaries with kindness... good job.

With respect, I would like to think about the thought of being "driven away"... that is being forced to do something we are releasing control to when we truly always have a say.

What happens I've learned is that when we are without fear in these situations, we are actively choosing to remove ourselves from a suffering that is not only unwelcome, but completely unnecessary and in the way of a good life. We are willing to leave if things will not be mindfully what or where they should, we are telling the other person we have the strength to make the hard decisions and not keep doing the same thing that harms all.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Excellent point, jlg. When I drove my daughter to college and was returning home (I 'stayed for the kids'), I was crying. Not for her leaving, but for what I was returning home to. Things have improved a lot since then - but only because of MY actions. But there has to be something there.

Get the book His Needs Her Needs and read it. Then, moving forward, when the subject of needs comes up, you can recite things to her about what needs are and what you (and she) need out of the relationship. It helps to come from a position of knowledge (which you should love!).


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> Excellent point, jlg. When I drove my daughter to college and was returning home (I 'stayed for the kids'), I was crying. Not for her leaving, but for what I was returning home to. Things have improved a lot since then - but only because of MY actions. But there has to be something there.
> 
> Get the book His Needs Her Needs and read it. Then, moving forward, when the subject of needs comes up, you can recite things to her about what needs are and what you (and she) need out of the relationship. It helps to come from a position of knowledge (which you should love!).




I wish we could communicate like that but she seems to take things as a personal attack. She will then get defensive and want to fight or leave. I will keep trying and hopefully things will get better. I know you are going to have a good laugh on this one. I have read that book and it was also when I had lots of time. I think she also read it. Unfortunately I think she reads things and is looking for ways it would apply to me rather than how it will apply to herself. Here is my book notes LMAO

His needs Her needs

1 how to affair proof your marriage

Become aware of each other's emotional needs and learn to meet them

2 Why your love bank never closes

Love banks fill and deplete based on interactions. When needs continually not met by one and are met by another it opens up the possibility of an affair. 

3 The first thing she can't do without affection 

Hug her often and with meaning. Send notes and messages. Flowers. Out to eat. Open doors for her. Hand holding, conversation, back rub. 

When it comes to sex and affection, you can't have one without the other

Ask her what type of affection is important to her.

Affection without acting on the sexual arousal is important, like when you were first dating. 

4 The first thing he can't do without Sexual Fulfillment

The typical wife doesn't understand her husband's deep need for sex any more than the typical husband understands his wife's deep need for affection

Understanding the difference between arousal in men and women. Men visual, touch, etc Women emotional, connection, attention, affection, suspense, anticipation, teasing.

Meet your spouse's needs as you would want your spouse to meet yours. 

5 She needs him to talk to her conversation

Why wont my husband talk to me like we did in the beginning. It takes time to communicate
Conversation and affection is like the glue for women.

Growing apart can take place when things to talk about dry up (no overlapping interests to discuss) 

Enemies of good conversation
1 using conversation to get your way at your SOs expense 2 Using conversation to punish each other 3 using conversation to argue or force your way of thinking 4 dwelling on mistakes past or present. 

“Caring partners converse in a caring way”

Friends of good conversation

1 develop interests in each others favorite topics of conversation 2 balancing the conversation 3 using conversation to inform, investigate and understand your SO 4 giving each other undivided attention. 

6 He needs her to be his playmate recreational companionship 

Spheres of interest again , use appendix to find them

The couple that plays together stays together

7 She needs to trust him totally honesty and openness 

Mmpi. Do not stuff things or lie to protect feelings, be transparent 

Honesty is the best marriage insurance policy 

8 He needs a good looking wife - an attractive spouse 

Look and smell good. Do what your spouse likes or at least compromise. Never do the opposite of what they like. Don't let yourself go. 

9 She needs enough money to live comfortably 

Living on one salary only. His. “When it comes to money in marriage less may be more”

10 He needs peace and quiet Domestic Support

Domestic bliss a man's fantasy. Fair division of labor. Identify and assign items. Help by love unit value. 

11 She needs him to be a good father Family Commitment 

Wife needs a strong family unit. Parenting takes time. Parenting takes training, Learn to be consistent, Learn how to punish properly, learn how to reach agreement with your wife. Be committed, handle your anger, learn to interpret rules, avoid because I said so. 

12 He needs her to be proud of him Admiration

Behind every man should be an admiring wife. Self esteem begins at home. Men need admiration of their wife. Honest admiration only. You can't change traits you can change habits 

13 how to survive an affair 

Do you want to survive? Don’t put up with it. Know what to expect. Contact breaking and starting to meet the needs that caused it in the first place. 

14 From incompatible to irresistible 

When you meet the needs you are irresistible. When you neglect them you are incompatible


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

lol, I'll condense it for you:
- We each have needs and we pick someone (1) expecting them to meet OUR needs and (2) loving them so much that we want to meet THEIRS.
- If we continue to meet each others' needs, we stay in love; if one of us (or both) doesn't meet the other's needs, that person falls out of love
- A happy marriage has to have the couple spending quality time together away from kids/chores/electronics or the love dies
- Dysfunction derails the marriage so every effort must be made to remove the dysfunction or, again, the love dies


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> lol, I'll condense it for you:
> - We each have needs and we pick someone (1) expecting them to meet OUR needs and (2) loving them so much that we want to meet THEIRS.
> - If we continue to meet each others' needs, we stay in love; if one of us (or both) doesn't meet the other's needs, that person falls out of love
> - A happy marriage has to have the couple spending quality time together away from kids/chores/electronics or the love dies
> - Dysfunction derails the marriage so every effort must be made to remove the dysfunction or, again, the love dies




Thank you for that summary it’s much more concise than my notes.  

This also ties into the 5 love languages. Her needs from that book are first acts of service and second quality time. Mine were words of affirmation and second physical touch. I don’t feel like I need to be reminded to do these things for her but I do feel like I need to remind her about mine.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

IMO, that's a result of the dynamics of your situation. You, like many men, probably set up the relationship being wonderful, she took it and ran with it, and never realized she'd have to give back. That would go along with the self-centered anger personality she displays. 

This will require a bit more finessing. A slow, steady progression of comments and boundaries. For example, my DH knows my top need is taking care of our house. His top need, aside from sex, is having me take care of him - cooking, laundry, etc. At the moment, he's always too busy to take care of the house, yet I continued to meet HIS needs. So now, I only wash his clothes if he takes care of something for the house. His choice not to pay attention. But psychologically it makes me feel better not to be meeting all his needs when he's not meeting mine. 

In your case, look for situations to bring up what you need. Maybe tie it into what SHE expects. Hon, I'd love to bring you that cup of coffee; give me a hug first, ok? And if she refuses, ask her why. Great place to say 'so I feel loved when you hug me, you feel loved when I do something nice for you - why is it that you don't think I deserve a hug as much as you deserve that cup of coffee?' And then just sit back and see what she does. Hopefully, she'll see your logic and laugh and give you a hug and you can go get that coffee. 

Most likely, she'll dig her heels in and say no and pout, in which case you'll just keep sitting there on the couch enjoying the tv show. 

Note that this is another one of your boundaries/consequences that you can set and use as a teaching moment. Whatever you do, you DO NOT get up and get her that coffee anyway. Trust me, she's learning.

Then, the next time she asks you for something, hold out your arms and say 'sure! hug?' and see what she does.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

482 said:


> Woke up this morning and she decided she wanted to talk. What she wanted to talk about was how what I was doing (described above by Turnera) is *making her feel abandoned and unloved*. I reinforced that I acknowledge her feelings but this is what I will be doing from now on. I said again that I will not stick around for the mean and nasty behavior. I explained that if she could just talk to me in a respectful way we would never have to do this again. She then got all worked up thrashing around my house a bit on her own and no longer taking place in a conversation with me. After some time of her being in the other room she came out, said not one word, and went home. It seems she wants to continue to test my resolve on this boundary.
> 
> Also another interesting thing is that throughout this entire new process *she has never wanted to talk about my needs in this relationship.* I have problems and unfulfilled needs but they do not seem to be taken seriously. If I ever do get to tell her what my problems are they are dismissed or taken as a personal insult it seems. She will get defensive and take it almost like a personal attack. Because of this I rarely feel like my needs are heard. I rarely feel like they are a priority in any way. That needs to change.


Glad you acknowledged her feelings. You say she wanted to talk, but I'm thinking she really wanted for you to listen and change your new behavior. Know that you don't make her feel abandoned and unloved, SHE chooses to feel that way because she is no longer 'winning' through her angry actions. For example, she could be thinking, 482 really loves me enough that he is working on smoother communication and better interactions. Instead she is digging in--she likes tantrums and the control she has perceived through them. So, you are in the hard part of tough love and doing a great job. Hang in there.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

482 said:


> I wish we could communicate like that but she seems to take things as a personal attack. She will then get defensive and want to fight or leave.
> ......
> ......
> ......
> ...


These cliff notes are GREAT!!! As for your wife, she needs to read, and re-read, and re-re-read,etc. chapter 5..... She is doing 1, 2 and 3 highlighted above for SURE, and 4 from some of the things you've posted.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> IMO, that's a result of the dynamics of your situation. You, like many men, probably set up the relationship being wonderful, she took it and ran with it, and never realized she'd have to give back. That would go along with the self-centered anger personality she displays.
> 
> This will require a bit more finessing. A slow, steady progression of comments and boundaries. For example, my DH knows my top need is taking care of our house. His top need, aside from sex, is having me take care of him - cooking, laundry, etc. At the moment, he's always too busy to take care of the house, yet I continued to meet HIS needs. So now, I only wash his clothes if he takes care of something for the house. His choice not to pay attention. But psychologically it makes me feel better not to be meeting all his needs when he's not meeting mine.
> 
> ...




I think what you described about the beginning of the relationship is true of how I treated her. I addition though she treated me the same way. It was what I call the advertisement phase where all flaws are well hidden and we would do anything for one another. We were in lust.

I think the scenario you describe with your husband is something I also see in my relationship. When things are good she will do anything for me and when they are bad she will go out of her way to do the bare minimum. Not sure if she even realizes she is doing it. I guess I must do the same and that contributes to the problem. 

I have started being more vocal about my needs and they are being met more because of it. What I am finding is that I just need to provide her with the information more often that she can act on. If I wait for her to do things I need without making it known that I need them I will almost never get them. This could be something a simple as a kiss and hug when we meet. If I let her know when we meet that I am waiting for some affection from her she will provide it and feel great about doing it. If I do and say nothing and expect her to know what I need from her I am a moron. 

Since I have started with the new process you described things have gotten better. It’s far to soon to see if it will improve the dynamic of the relationship in one of our biggest problem areas fighting. With that said it has helped in the last 2 fights that started to get us on track. In one instance I got and apology directly after and break for what she said during an angry outburst. In another I was able to describe to her an issue I have been trying to describe to her for years. After I described it she said I never knew you felt this way about this. To that I said I have never been able to get past the first sentence before it turned into a fight and an angry outburst. I went on to explain that I want us to talk like this more often. 

I would not say that this is 100% because I have not used it enough to know for sure. What I can say for sure is that it has helped a whole lot with a big problem. In order for it to continue to work I will need to continue to be the calm one, this is my challenge. I need to make sure I am not sucked into the argument and start taking place in it. I need to keep us on topic and extract the feelings and real issues from her anger. This is 100% my biggest challenge.....

I need to not dig in my heals when she does hurtful things and will not acknowledge them with apology. I am asking for advise on this topic because it’s a situation I often find myself in. She will do something like cuss me out in front of someone. This it very much not ok with me on so many levels. I tell her this and then I begin to withdraw. I withdraw because I am waiting on her apology for acting way out of line. The apology will come but often after days of this tug of war. Now with all of this said I did get an apology recently for the same behavior directly after a break and that was a first. Is there some way I could do this better? Some way I could not withdraw and prolong the fight? I am asking because I suck at this. When she hurts me good I withdraw and dig in my heels waiting for an apology.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If she is rude to you in front of someone else, call her out - in FRONT of that person - and then leave the room. "Wife, I don't accept poor treatment, and certainly not in front of our friend" and then just end the conversation and leave the room. She's MUCH more likely to learn from being burned in front of someone else than just from you.

The other issue you're describing is the 'requiring an apology' and then pulling away until you get it. That is you trying to CONTROL her. You think you're manipulating her by withdrawing, punishing her. Did you know that is one of the first things abusive partners do to control their victim? It's a mind game and they use it to give out punishment or withhold pleasure, so that the victim starts to become attuned to whether they will be punished or pleasured, and thus the relationship starts to revolve around the abuser's good will.

I don't think you're anything like that, I'm just trying to show you why withdrawal - and doing it to effect something - can be detrimental to both of you, and can be a slippery slope.

And if you'll remember in NMMNG, this is also called a covert contract - modifying YOUR actions to get a change in HER actions. Or just manipulation. 

I think the trick here is to be confident enough in yourself to know you don't NEED an apology from her, and also to know that your new process - not accepting abuse - means you'll be fine no matter what she does. Or even if she's there.

I also would have you look at what you think you're getting from an apology. What does that really mean to you? Are you trying to get her to say you matter more? That she loves you? Those things are just ego-fillers and you don't need someone else to fill your own ego. That's codependency and unhealthy. Are you doing it so you can 'win?' That's not even nice; that's you saying you care more about your own good feelings than hers. So take some time and come up with a good understanding of just what you're hoping to accomplish with an apology. I'm guessing it may be something that happened in your FOO that you 'run' to in points of stress; maybe a sibling thing?


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> If she is rude to you in front of someone else, call her out - in FRONT of that person - and then leave the room. "Wife, I don't accept poor treatment, and certainly not in front of our friend" and then just end the conversation and leave the room. She's MUCH more likely to learn from being burned in front of someone else than just from you.
> 
> The other issue you're describing is the 'requiring an apology' and then pulling away until you get it. That is you trying to CONTROL her. You think you're manipulating her by withdrawing, punishing her. Did you know that is one of the first things abusive partners do to control their victim? It's a mind game and they use it to give out punishment or withhold pleasure, so that the victim starts to become attuned to whether they will be punished or pleasured, and thus the relationship starts to revolve around the abuser's good will.
> 
> ...


You are spot on about the reaction I should take to her bad behavior like cussing me out in front of others. I need to do that more often rather than react in anger because of what was just said. 

I hear you about the wanting to control and punish her and I would be lying if I said I had never heard that before. I have heard her say the same thing using the same words you have. With that said I am interested to hear how you feel about this observation vs. the process you described for dealing with her anger? In a lot of ways that process is doing the same thing, withdrawing - punishing. 

Covert contracts yes I do remember that. I guess if I better understand the above I can make sure I am not doing that kind of thing. 

When it comes to what I am getting from an apology its respect. When she cusses me out because she is angry I feel disrespected. When she then tries to "move on" and ignore that it even happened, I again feel disrespected. When she says she does not need to be told to apologize, I am thinking OK they why haven't you? This is what makes me feel like I need to hold out for an apology, I feel disrespected. An apology says to me that the person realizes they did something wrong and they would like to make it right. The lack of apology says to me they think that was perfectly ok and will most likely therefore do it again in the future.


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## sunsetmist (Jul 12, 2018)

I feel hurt when someone disrespects me as you have described. With no apology, the hurt magnifies. Maybe this is a southern thing, but 'tis rare for someone to curse a SO in public unless they are drunk--it is just bad manners. I just will not tolerate being with someone who is blatantly, repeatedly disrespectful. It is not me trying to control them, it is my preference to be with folks who have respect and self-control. So for me, I guess, it is a deal-breaker. Am I perfect--absolutely not, but I do not disrespect anyone, especially those about whom I care in public.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

482 said:


> You are spot on about the reaction I should take to her bad behavior like cussing me out in front of others. I need to do that more often rather than react in anger because of what was just said.


What's the point of reacting in anger?

Seriously, what is the point? Do YOU ever react well when someone is angry at YOU? This is where your self confidence comes into play.

I used to be teased a lot in school; we were so poor, hand-me-downs, couldn't even afford a haircut. I used to cry at the teasing, kind of like your anger, until I finally just realized that for anyone to have to make fun of me, THEY had to be in a sh*tload of pain. It allowed me to feel sorry for them. And once I was able to feel sorry for them, I felt better about myself - I saw that their actions (anger, teasing, whatever) were all about THEM, not me. It allowed me to stop reacting to them. You should try it. She doesn't get angry cos she's a happy, healthy person; she gets angry cos she hates herself and she has crappy coping skills and it's the only way she knows to hopefully make the pain go away.



> I hear you about the wanting to control and punish her and I would be lying if I said I had never heard that before. I have heard her say the same thing using the same words you have. With that said I am interested to hear how you feel about this observation vs. the process you described for dealing with her anger? In a lot of ways that process is doing the same thing, withdrawing - punishing.


Well, I wouldn't take the words of a dysfunctional person as gospel; if SHE says you're trying to control and punish, she's only saying that cos SHE wants to control and punish. That said, you're using your resources to try to change the outcome, when what you really should be doing is focusing on your Boundaries and your Consequences and letting life roll on however it does with those two in place.

And no, leaving the room is not withdrawing, in the psychological sense. Their description of withdrawing is to remove your emotional support and 'hereness' from a relationship either to soothe yourself or to punish the other person. Take a good hard look to see what you're really doing. You can leave a room but still make it perfectly clear you're not leaving the relationship, you're just not participating in dysfunction. But if you leave a room, and go POUT, or refuse to talk to her for 2 days while you're in the same room, that's punishment. And by now you're too advanced to let yourself pout or punish, right?



> When it comes to what I am getting from an apology its respect. When she cusses me out because she is angry I feel disrespected. When she then tries to "move on" and ignore that it even happened, I again feel disrespected. When she says she does not need to be told to apologize, I am thinking OK they why haven't you? This is what makes me feel like I need to hold out for an apology, I feel disrespected. An apology says to me that the person realizes they did something wrong and they would like to make it right. The lack of apology says to me they think that was perfectly ok and will most likely therefore do it again in the future.


You can't make someone respect you. You EARN respect. And again, you're trying to control her when you say she needs to apologize. How would you feel if she told you you had to do something to make her feel better? You'd feel controlled. 

You'll get the respect when you start acting with CONSISTENCY in calmness, self-respect, restraint, and, most importantly, being willing to NOT participate with her in instances where she shows no respect (anger, yelling, throwing, blaming). Trust me, she'll get it. She's already adapting to your newfound strength and doing things you never thought she would. Just be patient, keep up the self-regulation and the boundaries/consequences consistently, and you'll find you don't need to be in a situation any longer where you will NEED an apology.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> What's the point of reacting in anger?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You certainly have a way with words and a very good understanding of this. It all makes sense.

Thank you


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Thanks, but I know from experience it's easier to understand this stuff than it is to put it into action. That's why therapists will have you do 'homework' - they know that you have to keep doing things over and over for it to (1) not be scary and (2) turn it into habit. There's that consistency thing.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> Thanks, but I know from experience it's easier to understand this stuff than it is to put it into action. That's why therapists will have you do 'homework' - they know that you have to keep doing things over and over for it to (1) not be scary and (2) turn it into habit. There's that consistency thing.




I completely understand what you are saying here. I can read all of the books we discussed and all of the points you highlighted above but without 100% implementation I will not see the benefits. In order for someone to learn from/respect me they will need to see my consistent answer, no variations. If I was able to do this stuff every time I would have a lot less problems in life. 

Will I be able to do all or these things 100% of the time? Will I never get angry and react like a child? Will I never withdraw again when I am hurt by someone’s actions? No to all of them for a while if I am being 100% honest. I say this because these are things I have done as a reaction to things for a very long time. It will take me time to never do this stuff again. It will take dedication and practice. It will take failures and realization of those failures.

One of the biggest obstacles I see is holding out for apology when things are said or done. I completely understand your above discussion about respect so I will no longer do that if I seek respect. I think there may be other examples aside from disrespect that will test me. If it’s ok with you I would like to post those questions here and get some feedback?

Here is my first question. When you are disrespected like I described what do you do? From what I understand above you let them know it’s not ok in that moment and then you remove yourself. At that point you do not feel the need for apology in any way? You just move on? Is the thinking if it comes great if it does not o well? I fear resentment will build in me towards this person if this exact dynamic played out. I would like to understand this a bit more. Not understand the proper reaction to this bad behavior but the resentment building when someone does not own their ****ty behavior. Maybe I am missing something or not viewing this correctly.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

@842 You are getting great advice here from @turnera and I really hope you get the results you want.
As regards respect.When I was young I was working for a multi national electronics firm from Germany,I was their troubleshooter and worked on some huge installations but only when there was a problem.A lot of people couldn’t accept this kid (I was nineteen/twenty) coming in and pointing out their mistakes so there were a few occasions when I was verbally insulted and on a couple of occasions I was threatened with physical assault.
I had a simple solution.When someone verbally insulted me I asked them quietly and in private what gave them the right to speak to me or anyone like that,and as educated men surely they could see that they were being rude and insulting.It’s very hard for someone to explain to someone else why the feel they can insult them lol.
When I felt physically threatened, at first I would simply call security on the site and have the aggressor removed.Then on one subway project I got tired of backing down and agreed with the engineer in question to settle things “like a man” I also told him as a courtesy that I had been practicing martial arts for ten years.He changed his tune then.
What I’m trying to get across is walking away will only work if the aggressor is prepared to learn,most people are open to being reasonable but not all.
Some people refuse to accept that they are the problem and I’m worried that she will at some stage get physical.Her complete inability to apologize is why I think this.While you may think she’s improving,she may be just waiting for the old doormat you to return.I’m not suggesting you threaten her,I’m suggesting that you have departed the relationship before then.In other words have a date in mind and if her behavior has not considerably improved then break up.


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## Haiku (Apr 9, 2014)

😏


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Andy1001 said:


> I had a simple solution.When someone verbally insulted me I asked them quietly and in private what gave them the right to speak to me or anyone like that,and as educated men surely they could see that they were being rude and insulting.It’s very hard for someone to explain to someone else why the feel they can insult them lol.
> When I felt physically threatened, at first I would simply call security on the site and have the aggressor removed.Then on one subway project I got tired of backing down and agreed with the engineer in question to settle things “like a man” I also told him as a courtesy that I had been practicing martial arts for ten years.He changed his tune then.
> What I’m trying to get across is walking away will only work if the aggressor is prepared to learn,most people are open to being reasonable but not all.
> Some people refuse to accept that they are the problem and I’m worried that she will at some stage get physical.Her complete inability to apologize is why I think this.While you may think she’s improving,she may be just waiting for the old doormat you to return.I’m not suggesting you threaten her,I’m suggesting that you have departed the relationship before then.In other words have a date in mind and if her behavior has not considerably improved then break up.


Good stuff, but a couple of things. Speaking privately to a coworker is the right thing to do - you do not want to embarrass them needlessly when you can work it out privately. But that won't work with a spouse because it's a whole lot of other sets of dynamics going on, such as you are legally bound to each other, you made promises that aren't in a workplace situation, you have a history, and they aren't sticking around to keep their job.

I agree though, and I was just coming back to suggest, that she won't willingly change and she will do what's called "change back!" behavior - ramping up the narrative to try to get back to status quo. So it might behoove you to get a VAR and keep it in your pocket at all times. One guy on here even bought a camera that he kept on his shirt, and when his wife called the cops and accused him of attacking her, he showed them the video of her hitting him. So be safe, and watch out for her to ramp up.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

Turnera,

These two aren't married. There aren't any vows. This is just a girlfriend there are so many issues with. They don't have children together.

I think there should be a timeline. If the relationship hasn't improved, there is no need to suffer on and on. That's what the DATING period is for. To see if someone is forever material, or not.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I do, too, Livvie, but he's made it clear he's not leaving.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

482 said:


> When you are disrespected like I described what do you do? From what I understand above you let them know it’s not ok in that moment and then you remove yourself. At that point you do not feel the need for apology in any way? You just move on? Is the thinking if it comes great if it does not o well? I fear resentment will build in me towards this person if this exact dynamic played out. I would like to understand this a bit more. Not understand the proper reaction to this bad behavior but the resentment building when someone does not own their ****ty behavior. Maybe I am missing something or not viewing this correctly.


The resentment that's building is because you feel you're bending over backwards for her and she isn't doing the same. And you're right. She's taking you for granted. But why is that? It's not HER fault.

She's taking you for granted because you are ALLOWING her to take you for granted. Cos you're a Nice Guy. And you're a Nice Guy cos you have self esteem issues. People with self esteem issues feel they aren't worthy enough, they're lucky to get this person to choose them cos nobody else will so they better just suck it up. 

What I've been trying to tell you is that, as Livvie points out, this is DATING, not marriage. So you SHOULD be in a place where you are analyzing whether this person is a good fit for you. Unfortunately, you zipped past that step and went on to bond with her kids ('her kids NEED me') which means you have attached yourself to a person for the WRONG reasons and now feel stuck. 

See, a person - a healthy-ego person - who is dating a woman is assessing her temperament, 

You're acting like you can't leave and thus you have to find a way to change the dynamics, make her a better person, so that your life will be tolerable. When in reality, what you should be doing is setting a time limit to say 'this isn't working and if things don't get better I'm outta here.' Trust me, I get it. I watched my brother go through TWO horrendous relationships - dating relationships - for the kids. He thought they'd wither and die without him there helping them get past their dysfunctional mother's issues. 

Well, truth is, I have no idea how those kids turned out, but my brother eventually had no choice but to leave their mothers, it was so bad. He went on to find a woman who was a great FRIEND, not lover, and they went on to fall in love. The right way.

But you need to ask yourself, what's your payoff? You stay partially cos you think those kids 'need' you. There's a mental, ego-based payoff you're getting from that. So what is it? Once you identify it, you can work around it cos it sure as hell isn't healthy.

Now, back to your original question. For some reason - and I'm sure it's rooted in your childhood - you think you have to see her grovel for you to feel vindicated. A man with a healthy ego would not need that. A man with a healthy ego would actually LAUGH at her if she apologized and say something like 'babe, I don't need an apology, I need a decent woman who doesn't do something to require an apology in the first place. You gonna be that woman?'

He also wouldn't 'need' an apology to decide to stay cos he'd be assessing the relationship based on whether it's good for him. A man in your situation would have a mental checklist or timeline, and he would reach a POINT in his head where he said, 'yeah, I'm outta here.' 

Ask yourself: why aren't you there yet?


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

Andy1001 said:


> @842 You are getting great advice here from @turnera and I really hope you get the results you want.
> As regards respect.When I was young I was working for a multi national electronics firm from Germany,I was their troubleshooter and worked on some huge installations but only when there was a problem.A lot of people couldn’t accept this kid (I was nineteen/twenty) coming in and pointing out their mistakes so there were a few occasions when I was verbally insulted and on a couple of occasions I was threatened with physical assault.
> I had a simple solution.When someone verbally insulted me I asked them quietly and in private what gave them the right to speak to me or anyone like that,and as educated men surely they could see that they were being rude and insulting.It’s very hard for someone to explain to someone else why the feel they can insult them lol.
> When I felt physically threatened, at first I would simply call security on the site and have the aggressor removed.Then on one subway project I got tired of backing down and agreed with the engineer in question to settle things “like a man” I also told him as a courtesy that I had been practicing martial arts for ten years.He changed his tune then.
> ...


All valid points to take into account but I have to do things a bit different. If this type of thing happens again I will be addressing it right there in front of anyone present. I will not get angry, I will just make it know that it is not ok, then I will walk away, done talking. In regards to her becoming physical I highly doubt that would never happen.


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> The resentment that's building is because you feel you're bending over backwards for her and she isn't doing the same. And you're right. She's taking you for granted. But why is that? It's not HER fault.
> 
> She's taking you for granted because you are ALLOWING her to take you for granted. Cos you're a Nice Guy. And you're a Nice Guy cos you have self esteem issues. People with self esteem issues feel they aren't worthy enough, they're lucky to get this person to choose them cos nobody else will so they better just suck it up.
> 
> ...


You gave me a lot to think about here and I think I need to make some changes. I think setting a timeline makes sense. 

The resentment builds when she will not apologize for her ****ty behavior not that I am bending over backwards and she is not. She does do a lot for me, is always there for me, takes care of all the kids, etc. Trust me it is not that it's one sided, I would never be comfortable with that. 

I would be lying if I said you were not correct about the self esteem issues, there are some there for sure. 

I do feel a bit stuck because of the kids you are correct but I can not do that at the cost of my own happiness. I think it makes complete sense that I have a timeline set that if we can not work things out, communicate better, and for the most part be happy, it's over. I understand that any relationship will have fights and disagreements but this is a bit more than that. I also understand that this is not one sided I do have fault in us being the way we are that I need to fix, like withdrawing and having a glass ego. 

Not 100% sure what the payoff is but I would assume it has something to do with my father and their father. They were both POS drunks for the most part with flashes of real parenting here and there. I probably on some level feel like I need to save them from that BS. But to be 100% honest I love them in a deep way, because they are not part of or involved in the fighting me and their mother do most of the time. They do not hurt me in the way that she does, it's all love with them. 

I think I need to start building that mental checklist and timeline now.....


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Ahhh the KISA syndrome - which incidentally, is tied almost always to low self esteem. And children of alcoholics.

My brother, too, felt like he could 'save' those kids and therefore, he should do so. 

When I say bending over backwards, I mean in terms of letting her unload all her crap on you while you do nothing. Once you have a habit of not accepting the crap, the need for apologies will disappear.

Have you ever gone to an Adult Children of Alcoholics meeting? You might be surprised how much you will learn about yourself there.
https://adultchildren.org/meeting-search/


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## 482 (Mar 14, 2017)

turnera said:


> Ahhh the KISA syndrome - which incidentally, is tied almost always to low self esteem. And children of alcoholics.
> 
> My brother, too, felt like he could 'save' those kids and therefore, he should do so.
> 
> ...




After talking to my sister and better understanding the early days I think you may be correct. I did hear about this group often in a book I read “codependent no more”. Guess it’s worth a try.....


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