# OMG! Enough of the Fog Talk Already



## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

This coming from a woman with a serial cheater.....the fog talk is insulting!!

No my WS is not in a fog, he made very clear and distinct decisions to cheat. No the AP is not in a fog, they made the same decision.

There is no "chemical" or dopeamine (sp) effects that the cheaters can't help but fall victim to in order to continue in the affair. It comes across like us BS are dumb or need some sort of reason to excuse the behavior. They aren't aliens re-writing history (all of the time). They are simply cheaters.....that's all.

No fog, no sexual addiction, none of that. They wanted to be with someone else. Their reasons are their own but we should really stop giving them excuses. "She/He is the fog when they say they don't love us. No, they can't love us to do what they are doing! This post is for me too. I am just coming to realize I would be willingly to believe anything other than the truth. And the truth is, they fell in love with other people, EA or PA and stayed with us for reasons we "have" to believe include love for us and the family. 

I am really starting to question if its the consequences they don't want to face more than leaving the marriage. I am just hanging on by a thread everyday. And don't know any people IRL that are really happy together after infidelity. They have just somehow keep it together but never with loving looks and kind words that are genuine. (Crap mood today)


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

AMEN SISTER! The fog is an excuse, a rationalization. 
Fog = Selfish = All About What I Want
Affairs are conscious decisions. Not Mistakes. Not Sexual Addiction. Not I'm Lonely. Not I Don't Get Enough Sex. I'd have more respect for a Wayward if he/she said "I just wanted to get laid".


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

asia said:


> This coming from a woman with a serial cheater.....the fog talk is insulting!!
> 
> No my WS is not in a fog, he made very clear and distinct decisions to cheat. No the AP is not in a fog, they made the same decision.
> 
> ...


I think the "fog" is a way for the BS to try and understand what the WS was experiencing.

I hear you about the how happy can you be after cheating.

I wonder that every fricken day....I am filled with anger, resentment and suspicioun majority of the time. I hate having to check the computer/his phone, etc. etc. I was with this person for 20+ years and now it is like everything has been turned around.

I often think I should just leave and start my life fresh..sometimes that is so very appealing.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

No,there is no fog.
Is a bank robber in a fog? A mugger?
No,they wanted what they wanted and they knew it was wrong,they did'nt care who they hurt.
Kids,spouse,extended family...it did'nt matter.
I did'nt matter.
It did'nt matter even after the BS Found out and they WS saw the pain they caused,they did'nt care.
Its pretty simple
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

highwood said:


> I think the "fog" is a way for the BS to try and understand what the WS was experiencing.
> 
> I hear you about the how happy can you be after cheating.
> 
> ...


Sometimes I think that would be better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

I see both sides- In most cases I see people using "fog" to basically explain infatuation. Butterflies in stomach, waiting for their every call or text.....you know like how you felt with your first high school love. 

Lust can make you lose your ever loving mind, look around at all the love sick puppy people when their romance is first starting. 

I don't think any BS/WS truly believes that the "fog" made them do it. It's just a way to explain why they act live zombie idiots during infatuation.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

highwood said:


> I think the "fog" is a way for the BS to try and understand what the WS was experiencing.


What they were experiencing was love, excitement, fun.....not confusion and fogginess. It is just so insulting. Admit it, you wanted someone else.....that is it. This fog thing makes it seem like they couldn't help themselves and we couldn't compete or something. They weren't in love with a feeling, they were in love with a person who was making them feel that way. That is where the rub is. We BS can't fathom our WS really being in love with another person or wanting sex so we need some other thing to cling to.

My husband told his OW he wanted a new wife. That was not fog talking. That was him wanting her. It seems like the more time I stay in this marriage, the clearer I get about who exactly I am married to.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> I see both sides- In most cases I see people using "fog" to basically explain infatuation. Butterflies in stomach, waiting for their every call or text.....you know like how you felt with your first high school love.
> 
> Lust can make you lose your ever loving mind, look around at all the love sick puppy people when their romance is first starting.
> 
> I don't think any BS/WS truly believes that the "fog" made them do it. It's just a way to explain why they act live zombie idiots during infatuation.


So are you saying when you and your spouse fell in love, you were in a fog? Because I will tell you right now, most of us on CWI do not think of our dating process as fog. We see it as falling/being in love. (Not trying to sound combative.  )


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

The fog is pretty lame, but when you try to rationaize how a parent can throw their own children under the bus, let alone their spouse who they have loved for X number of years for a piece of a$$...well, it is just that - lust fog I think. 

With a clear head, would someone even half way decent praise someone who would knowingly get involved with a married person and happily destroy the lives of a faithful spouse and innocent children? An AP is that - because they can't measure up to anything more. They could never be a good husband or wife and they know it.

A spouse who enters in an affair does not necessarily love the AP. More often than not, I think, it is just opportunity and something new that catches their attention, like a new toy. Sooner or later thay will see that the new toy was not as shiny as they thought. It came with dings and glitches and a history of many differnt owners before. The toy has been around and chances are no one will want to keep it for long after they play with it for awhile. It looks really cool at first, but its just a cheap knockoff of the real thing.

A good spouse, on the other hand, well, there is a reason that they are married. Some people are just marriage material and some just can't cut it.

Opportunity, shiny toy, lust for something new/knockoff - Affair Fog.


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## jmb123 (Nov 9, 2012)

Yes,there is no fog;A conscious decision by those people to get what they wanted in that moment and perhaps it did not turn out the way they ahd planned-so they are back with stories like they missed family etc etc.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Asia- I need to go read your story but you said he's a serial cheater, that's not fog that behavioral problem. 

Regardless of all the fog excuses, it boils down to how you CHOOSE to respond to the reality. If your partner continually cheats=reality. You get to decide if you want to keep living with it. 

You have all the power here really. What are the consequences you may be afraid to face? I think we all have to ask ourselves that question when deciding to stay or move on.

In some case we may decide that we sold ourselves down the river for a temporary oasis(reconciliation)...when in reality we just needed some adjustment time to face life without a marriage.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

calvin said:


> Sometimes I think that would be better.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The though of being on my own, not having to be paranoid anymore, not caring what he is or isn't doing...very appealing.

I don't know sometimes I wonder if a marriage can truly recover after infidelity. FIrst I find out in Sept. 2011 that he met someone while over in Singapore working that he has been corresponding with, he lies to me for a week saying that no he has stopped contact...a week later find out that he was still in contact, lies to me again that he is for sure done, even shed the tears like he was so distraught..find out in April 2012 that no for the last 6 months he was still in contact with her because he was addicted to her lovely, light, non baggage , bull**** conversations online.

Find out in June 2012 that he had a secret email since June 2008 that he was using to register for sex search, Ash. Mad, etc. etc. Then he met someone that he never met in person or so he claims, and was phoning them back in the fall of 2009. (so his first EA)

Funny thing is that he lied last year saying he has never done anything like this and it just happened...ummmm no you had and it did not just happen. I guess it was never menat for me to discover the old email address...and discover his first EA.

And...WHY am I with this guy???? Right now I am debating just making an appt. with a lawyer and being done with it.


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## BURNT KEP (Oct 3, 2012)

asia said:


> This coming from a woman with a serial cheater.....the fog talk is insulting!!
> 
> No my WS is not in a fog, he made very clear and distinct decisions to cheat. No the AP is not in a fog, they made the same decision.
> 
> ...


You hit the nail on the head no such fog exists just an excuse. Sorry about the bad day hope you feel better.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

I wouldn't call it a fog when we were dating, I call it infatuation. Your so excited to be with them, discover things during those first dinner dates ( Oh you like chocolate ice cream, me too we must be soul mates) - that you gloss over any red flags that might later drive you up the wall. Like oh he throws his socks on the floor, how adorable but in 20 years that charming habit drives you nuts. 

We might not look back at our beginnings as fog but it's certainly glossed over with the lens of unrealistic expectations.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> I wouldn't call it a fog when we were dating, I call it infatuation. Your so excited to be with them, discover things during those first dinner dates ( Oh you like chocolate ice cream, me too we must be soul mates) - that you gloss over any red flags that might later drive you up the wall. Like oh he throws his socks on the floor, how adorable but in 20 years that charming habit drives you nuts.
> 
> We might not look back at our beginnings as fog but it's certainly glossed over with the lens of unrealistic expectations.


I said something similar to my H..that I am sure that your EA must have liked everything that you did..of course. Wow you like that so do I

But her wanting to come to Canada had nothing to do with it I am sure:lol:

Sorry I am venting I too am in a pissy mood today...


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

The Middleman said:


> The fog is an excuse, a rationalization.


 Not true.



The Middleman said:


> Fog = Selfish = All About What I Want


 Absolutely True!!!



The Middleman said:


> Affairs are conscious decisions. Not Mistakes.


 Absolutely true but has no relevance to "the Fog."

As one of the resident cheaters here on TAM with no need to justify or rationalize to anyone my actions I'll tell you fog is very much real. It's known in lesser forms as infatuation or lust. It can also be called just plain old "having your head up your ass." It's not an excuse, I don't think most cheaters say, "I cheated because I was in a fog" maybe "I lied because I was in a fog" or I broke NC because I was in a fog." but not I cheated because of it. 

If you accept it as an excuse or if you use it as justification to let your cheating spouse off the hook - that's on you. It's just a thing and it is not an excuse. Fog or no - cheating is a decision made - and we should all be held accountable for our actions and decisions. 

Possibly the only thing a BS should do with the fog is know it can be there and perhaps have some understanding for the pain and confusion it causes for the cheater. But honestly, having been through it myself, if I were a BS I wouldn't give a damn what pain cheating caused my spouse figuring they earned it.


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## DevastatedDad (Oct 2, 2012)

asia said:


> This coming from a woman with a serial cheater.....the fog talk is insulting!!
> 
> No my WS is not in a fog, he made very clear and distinct decisions to cheat. No the AP is not in a fog, they made the same decision.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. 
This FOG business has never sat well with me.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

And I also want to add, that as a BS, I do believe that a WS can still love their partner even while they decide to have an affair. Why? They are selfish and want something they love and something they lust and decide to do what they have to to have both. As someone who would not cheat on their spouse, we BS's can't comprehend that. It seems irrational....it took me a long time to allow myself to see that - because my brain is wired differently. But my spouse - out of "the fog" and us in R for almost a year - has been very clear about his feelings, what he felt for OW, what kept him attracted to her, but yet, after I gave him more than a few opportunities to leave, here he is, and we are doing very well. We all like to feel good, appreciated, sexy....does not mean that someone telling us those things or giving a booty call = love. It is desire and lust to have more. There is a difference between love and lust. In a sincere and honest relationship you can have both. A relationship based on lies and secrecy is lust.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> And I also want to add, that as a BS, I do believe that a WS can still love their partner even while they decide to have an affair. Why? They are selfish and want something they love and something they lust and decide to do what they have to to have both.


I'm sorry but how can you love someone and knowingly hurt them so much at the same time? Perhaps they love themselves more?


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

The Middleman said:


> I'm sorry but how can you love someone and knowingly hurt them so much at the same time? *Perhaps they love themselves more?*


BINGO!!! It all goes back to selfish.


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## DevastatedDad (Oct 2, 2012)

I think the only FOG is the hell that the BS is in after the fact.
I am annoyed by a lot of the terms created in the world of cheating. 

Even the phrase "The Affair". I hate that the most. 
It has been x months since the affair. Yes, let's hate a third party thing that is represented by a noun.

No. It has been X months since I cheated on you.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

> if I were a BS I wouldn't give a damn what pain cheating caused my spouse figuring they earned it.


pretty much, yep.


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

Never bought into the "fog" BS. The next time I make a purely selfish choice I might pull out the "fog" card.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

The Middleman said:


> I'm sorry but how can you love someone and knowingly hurt them so much at the same time? Perhaps they love themselves more?




It doesn't seem possible, does it? I couldn't believe it. I still don't get it, but I belive it now (if that makes sense). As my husband and I have been in R, he has shown much remorse. He has said over and over and owned how selfish he was. Several times after we started R, I gave him the option to leave, to just walk away. He said he never wanted to leave, that he always loved me but he was selfish and weak. He said she was a cheap thrill and that was addicting. (do men look at porn and still love their wives? Yes, and an affair is very much worse, but the lust, the excitement the self gratification - much the same).

How was I able to finally believe it was possible? We have 2 daughters who he loves to death and who love him to death. Yet he almost decided to become a weekend dad for the OW. He didn't never love his daughters in all of this. But he did love himself more. He put himself first. He didn't think of the permanent damage he would have caused them. Selfish. And he told the OW that he would always love me because I was their mother. My hubs was confused. As much as he hurt me, I am sure she didn't like hearing that.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

DevastatedDad said:


> Even the phrase "The Affair". I hate that the most.
> It has been x months since the affair. Yes, let's hate a third party thing that is represented by a noun.
> 
> No. It has been X months since I cheated on you.


I hate the word too.The term "Affair" sanitizes what has taken place. Even cheated is too mild.

It has been X months since I deceived you.
It has been X months since I defied you. 
It has been X months since I F***** someone else. 

Call it what it is.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Can we also talk about loving your spouse and cheating on them at the same time. It seems we BS's can't grasp that it's possible and it is. There are different intensities of love and folks who practice poly armory prove that it's possible to love many at once. Now if they do it "well" I don't know, I've never been in that type of relationship but I can accept that many people don't view love as finite. 

How could he/she love me and betray and plot to hurt me at the same time ?(plotting in the sense of maintaining the affair)----If you look at the many definitions of marriage below-

MARRIAGE (Union of Souls)
Spiritual partnership
Purpose larger than the individuals
Source of support that facilitates growth
Shared/common vision that advances union


Almost all of these were lacking on "his" side during the affair but he still loved me and believed he would have these things in spades with her on that side......or in some cases if the WS has no intention of leaving the marriage for the AP it's because they have the above in the marriage and the cheating is purely supplemental to their ego. Hence the "they love them self more" is so true.


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## The Middleman (Apr 30, 2012)

*LookingForTheSun*, I give you credit, I don't know how you took him back.


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

FWIW my WW never pulled the fog card. She knows there was no excuse and how bad she screwed up.


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## DevastatedDad (Oct 2, 2012)

daggeredheart said:


> Can we also talk about loving your spouse and cheating on them at the same time. It seems we BS's can't grasp that it's possible and it is.


Of course you can love your spouse and cheat on them. 
However, if you do love someone it is a great not to chose to cheat on them.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

asia said:


> What they were experiencing was love, excitement, fun.....not confusion and fogginess. It is just so insulting. Admit it, you wanted someone else.....that is it. This fog thing makes it seem like they couldn't help themselves and we couldn't compete or something.


I've never interpreted "the fog" as an overriding force, controlling the WS. Rather...



> That was not fog talking. That was him wanting her.


...an offshoot of this. "The fog" is not the proverbial devil on the shoulder, taking control of their actions and making them do it. No, instead, it's the mental state that allows for the internal rewriting of history to justify their actions...the smudge they wipe on the lens of their minds eye to distort their perceptions of life surrounding them. It's an effect, not a cause.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

my wife doesnt know what the fog is.
she basically tells me that the OM gave her the attention i did not.
which i dont accept as an "excuse"...and really she doesnt offer it as one.
i was battling my own demons at the time. i couldnt do it for us both.
i essentially feel that the only thing the POSOM had over me was that, well...he wasnt ME. i was really lost at the time. and while my wife "should have" weathered this time, she didnt. but as far as being in a "fog"...i think there is definitely a time before the curtain is jerked away on the ugly ugly thing that is an extramarital affair that the WS actually thinks that the relationship with OM/OW is everything their relationship with their spouse is not.
at least, thats what i discerned from reading my wife/om emails.
but once the real truth comes out and they realize what a POS they have become to treat their spouse this way...the "fog" disappears almost instantly, IMO. that is, if they have any shred of a decent soul.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

Collectively you can wail against the concept of "fog" all you like. I don't espouse to understand what a BS goes through because I haven't walked in those shoes. To unilaterally dismiss something you have not experienced is... Well I'll just stop there. Like it or not it's a very real thing. It doesn't change what was done one iota. It is not justification for a damn thing. Do some - many - most possibly - cheaters try to use it as justification? I don't know - I only know my own story - but if they do they're full of bologna. 

I think it's kind of like the way I think the insanity defense SHOULD be used. Ok - you were insane - but the victim is just as dead and you pulled the trigger. I'm sorry you were insane - I would assume a normal person would not kill another - so you are going to jail just the same. I would assume someone not completely fogged out would not lie compulsively and cheat on the person the profess to love - but you did (I did) - and you've got pay the prices.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

The only thing I can offer here is that I gave my H many opportunities to go. To be with who ever he wished. I left myself at one point and had he not loved me he would have had a very different reaction to my leaving. He could absolutely have gone to OW. Easily. Could have spent that time calling her. Emailing her. Texting her. Instead, he spent it on the phone with a friend trying to figure out how to fix this. What he needed to do. Saying how much he'd messed up. And the rest of the time he spent writing to me. And texting me. He wrote a notebook of stuff to me. He spent the night alone in our house trying to pull himself together. So if he didnt love me he could very easily have been without me that day and everyday thereafter. If he wanted her, he could very easily have gone that route. He did something incredibly stupid. No doubt. But no one, myself included, has paid a bigger price than he has. 

He had a couple of incredibly bad years. But he's had 15 yrs prior to that loving me, taking care of children that werent his, working his ass off to provide for us and doing alot of good things. While this will never be tolerated again, and if its repeated I'll be gone, I do believe something inside of him changed during the time of the A. He wasnt himself. Call it what you will. But I dont believe he ever stopped loving us. I believe he got selfish. He lost his focus.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

The Middleman said:


> *LookingForTheSun*, I give you credit, I don't know how you took him back.


It has not been easy. But I had to look at everything, not just what my heart or my head wanted to look at. I had to place myself in his shoes as best as I could to try and understand better. 

I would do anything for my children, and trying to figure it out... I knew I owed them that. Once I finally did, I had been beaten up, but not beaten down. Things aren't just black and white, not when the human heart and soul are involved. We are more complex than that. For me, marriage - husband = family. He betrayed me, but I felt it was my duty too to not let him throw his life away. And it was so apparent, and the OW was so textbook of an OW. I wanted my family all along, but I knew it might not be salvageable and I knew that I might not want it in the end. I gave myself permission to move on with him. I never asked anyone "what would you do". I asked for much advice on here about what was normal, what does this mean, but I never asked anyone if they would stay or leave. That was my decision alone to make. 

I wish I never had to, but I am glad I pushed through the fire.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

I saw the fog as cloudy judgment. As a WS, I looked at my marriage my "fog goggles." I saw it as hopeless, that he didn't love or care about me. I genuinely thought we would be better apart. After a few weeks of NC, I felt like I could make a plan of action to be a better wife and make HIM feel loved, then hopefully he will want ME to feel loved. It's hit and miss right now but I'm not giving up.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> It has not been easy. But I had to look at everything, not just what my heart or my head wanted to look at. I had to place myself in his shoes as best as I could to try and understand better.
> 
> I would do anything for my children, and trying to figure it out... I knew I owed them that. Once I finally did, I had been beaten up, but not beaten down. Things aren't just black and white, not when the human heart and soul are involved. We are more complex than that. For me, marriage - husband = family. He betrayed me, but I felt it was my duty too to not let him throw his life away. And it was so apparent, and the OW was so textbook of an OW. I wanted my family all along, but I knew it might not be salvageable and I knew that I might not want it in the end. I gave myself permission to move on with him. I never asked anyone "what would you do". I asked for much advice on here about what was normal, what does this mean, but I never asked anyone if they would stay or leave. That was my decision alone to make.
> 
> I wish I never had to, but I am glad I pushed through the fire.


ditto to absolutely every word of this. I felt like I was at war and the cost of losing was my family. That was a price I wasnt willing to pay. I knew if I was gonna lose I was going down fighting.


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## canuckprincess (Mar 22, 2012)

asia said:


> This coming from a woman with a serial cheater.....the fog talk is insulting!!
> 
> No my WS is not in a fog, he made very clear and distinct decisions to cheat. No the AP is not in a fog, they made the same decision.
> 
> ...


Wow finally an bs who gets it! In my opinion the only time someone is in a fog is when a bs is too quick to believe a cheating spouse, and willing to R with them because they swear the ap meant nothing. My goodness I think you nailed it on the head and as a former bs I know my exh cheating wasn't about me. As far as hormones playing a part, I believe they do the first time it happens but I don't think it's hormones that keeps the affair going 5 years down the road, sorry but it's love. I have wondered myself how a cheater can say they love their bs and continue to betray them day in and day out. Especially the one's who have multiple ddays.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

The fog to me is watching my spouse being in-love or obsessed with someone else right infront of my very eyes, never seeing me, never hearing me and never remembering anything about us before the time divider. Life is, in their mind: Before AP and after AP (including continuing with AP), no in between called us. It's the stark reality that you choose to sit by day and night helplessly watching this, knowing you can't do not one darn thing about it until the karma bus hits them or you set a potential 'no contact' boundary with them. 

It is, for the BS, the worst loss of control of every aspect of living and a redefinition of perceptions, beliefs, reality etc. It is watching your spouse be for someone else what they were with you. It is the greatest theft of the thought that you were exclusive and special. It is a point of no return in many ways, especially for BSs. I think most of us stay until the redefining of our reality is complete or we either accept it, or we pretend it does not exist/never happened and continue with the mundane of everyday living with bills, jobs, children, etc. until it doesn't hurt anymore. 

Getting over the shock that WS is giving the fanfare and romance to AP (or more than one) in private, is the gut wrencher - while you, the BS, are the glorified head cook, babysitter, bottlewasher in public. That's why exposure works most of the time, it eliminates the dotted line between the WSs public and private life and it balances the equation for us BSs who are mostly the same in public as in private.

And don't get me wrong. I got my share of being on cloud 9 after the divorce. I felt invincible and incredible. I just am not that addictive, so it never got the better of me. I choose my substances well, and getting high off another human being 24/7 is not one of them (disclaimer: Neither is alcohol or drugs). That's for high school and I graduated a long, long time ago. I was expecting to see my 18 y.o. go through that "first love" thing, not my husband.


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## brokendown77 (Dec 15, 2012)

I found with my wife's A that the fog was more of a numbing agent. It numbed all her guilt for her. She's an adult, she made her own selfish choices. Now she has to live with them just like I do. Anyone with some resemblance of moral fiber knows that cheating is wrong and you just don't do it. Humans are taught this at a young age. Don't lie, cheat, or steal. Simple. 

She admitted that I was a great husband and father, but she was "confused". That's what really gets me. You aren't confused. You know what you wanted, and you were selfish enough to sacrifice the love and trust of your husband and toddler to get it. Marriages are hard, affairs are easy. All the fog did was numb the guilt.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Rightfulrisktaker- you said it so well...best I've ever seen.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> The fog is pretty lame, but when you try to rationaize how a parent can throw their own children under the bus, let alone their spouse who they have loved for X number of years for a piece of a$$...well, it is just that - lust fog I think.
> 
> With a clear head, would someone even half way decent praise someone who would knowingly get involved with a married person and happily destroy the lives of a faithful spouse and innocent children? An AP is that - because they can't measure up to anything more. They could never be a good husband or wife and they know it.
> 
> ...


I respectfully disagree. The way you make it sound, the WS was distracted but really never wanted the other person. In reality, the AP are just as nice and "the marrying type" as we are. It wouldn't make sense for a WS to throw everything away for someone not worthy. I get wanting to think the AP's are trash and low. But if I am being honest in my own head, I know they are not aliens or monsters, just got caught up like our WS. I am with my husband and SERIOUSLY do not like his latest OW, but she wasn't what I would like to think she was either. I am trying not to give my husband any slack and dogging out that woman does just that, for me.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

jmb123 said:


> Yes,there is no fog;A conscious decision by those people to get what they wanted in that moment and perhaps it did not turn out the way they ahd planned-so they are back with stories like they missed family etc etc.


I am inclined to believe this. I agree totally. And we BS have/need to believe this in order to stay sane.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

sigma1299 said:


> Not true.
> 
> Absolutely True!!!
> 
> ...


How can being in this so called fog pain the cheater?


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## Pepper123 (Nov 27, 2012)

Trying to say all WSs are in a fog is like trying to say all As are the same. It simply isn't the case... for some WS it will be a piece of a$$, for others it will be love. All situations are different, but at the end of the day labeling it as fog or love is just a way of justifying the bad behavior.


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## Calibre12 (Nov 27, 2012)

asia said:


> I respectfully disagree. The way you make it sound, the WS was distracted but really never wanted the other person. In reality, the AP are just as nice and "the marrying type" as we are. It wouldn't make sense for a WS to throw everything away for someone not worthy. I get wanting to think the AP's are trash and low. But if I am being honest in my own head, I know they are not aliens or monsters, just got caught up like our WS. I am with my husband and SERIOUSLY do not like his latest OW, but she wasn't what I would like to think she was either. I am trying not to give my husband any slack and dogging out that woman does just that, for me.


Doesn't negate the fact that you are the half and she's a "hole". She is more replaceable than you because the 80/20 rule will always apply. Maybe you have to see it for yourself when you dump him and he gets to keep his 20 and find out that he needs 4 more 20s to make up your 80.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> And I also want to add, that as a BS, I do believe that a WS can still love their partner even while they decide to have an affair. Why? They are selfish and want something they love and something they lust and decide to do what they have to to have both. As someone who would not cheat on their spouse, we BS's can't comprehend that. It seems irrational....it took me a long time to allow myself to see that - because my brain is wired differently. But my spouse - out of "the fog" and us in R for almost a year - has been very clear about his feelings, what he felt for OW, what kept him attracted to her, but yet, after I gave him more than a few opportunities to leave, here he is, and we are doing very well. We all like to feel good, appreciated, sexy....does not mean that someone telling us those things or giving a booty call = love. It is desire and lust to have more. There is a difference between love and lust. In a sincere and honest relationship you can have both. A relationship based on lies and secrecy is lust.


Playing devil's advocate here, what did you expect him to say, even now? That he really was in love with her but decided to stay with you because it's easier and less consequences? Any relationship can start out anyway it does and it's still a relationship. Someone can be sincere and honest about leaving the marriage, truly be in love with another person, and decide against it. That doesn't mean it was a booty call, the WS changed their mind for some reason. No longer playing devil's advocate. 

My WS had two women that were booty calls (so he says) as well, the third one he fell in love with.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

canuckprincess said:


> Wow finally an bs who gets it! In my opinion the only time someone is in a fog is when a bs is too quick to believe a cheating spouse, and willing to R with them because they swear the ap meant nothing. My goodness I think you nailed it on the head and as a former bs I know my exh cheating wasn't about me. As far as hormones playing a part, I believe they do the first time it happens but I don't think it's hormones that keeps the affair going 5 years down the road, sorry but it's love. I have wondered myself how a cheater can say they love their bs and continue to betray them day in and day out. Especially the one's who have multiple ddays.


A BS who gets what you see. Doesn't mean that what either of you think is right. Doesn't mean that those of us who choose to stay in a broken, but very fixable and full of potential marriage are right either...just means that it is right for us and we have our own insight and goals and dreams. Yes, you can still have dreams with a spouse who betrayed you. It is not easy, but if you did at one point have a strong bond, anything is possible. If my spouse continued his affar for 5 years, I would be singing a different tune. And let me say that having multiple DDs sucks, but the circumstances surrounding each affairs DDs may be different. Let me also point out that if there are multiple DDs, well, then, I guess the AP can't be all that. It should have been over w/DD1 and the BS should have been history. 

So anyone out there experiencing multiple DDs with their spouse...yes, they are an a$$, but don't think for a second that the AP is better than you....if you didn't love your spouse so much and they didn't love you so much, it wouldn't hurt so bad and it would have already been over. 

They are in the lust fog with their lust goggles on - much like beer goggles...once they sober up, what they took home one night doesn't look so good anymore,


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

asia said:


> Playing devil's advocate here, what did you expect him to say, even now? That he really was in love with her but decided to stay with you because it's easier and less consequences? Any relationship can start out anyway it does and it's still a relationship. Someone can be sincere and honest about leaving the marriage, truly be in love with another person, and decide against it. That doesn't mean it was a booty call, the WS changed their mind for some reason. No longer playing devil's advocate.
> 
> My WS had two women that were booty calls (so he says) as well, the third one he fell in love with.


Sorry that happened to you. I have seen and heard more truth than I have needed to. Was my WH truthful in between DD1 and DD4....about 50%...the rest came with R. 

FWIW, I think you are either still hurting very much, and if so, I am truly sorry for your pain and wish you well, or I think you are a current or former OW. Hopefully not, because that would be just sad and just like an OW. If I misjudged you, I truly apologize.


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## sigma1299 (May 26, 2011)

asia said:


> How can being in this so called fog pain the cheater?


Being in it isn't painful but coming out of it is - for any number of reasons. The first is withdrawal. The end of an affair is the death of a relationship - no matter how based in fantasy, no matter how unrealistic, no matter how stupid it was it hurts when a relationship dies - especially one as all encompassing as an affair. An affair is in many ways an obsession and it's hard to quit an obsession. 

The second and less obvious way it is painful necessitates a remorseful cheater. When you come out of the fog, if you are remorseful, it's like waking up in burned out city and finding the matches in your hand. When your thinking clears and the damage and carnage become clear, when you see finally what you have done and what you have become - yeah - it hurts. Don't get me wrong - it should hurt - I'm not looking for sympathy for myself or any other cheater - I'm just answering the question.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I will never understand anyone who makes this kind of blanket statement. My WS is not your WS, so saying something that may be true for yours doesn't make it true for mine.

Call it what you will, 'THE FOG' does exist. If you don't like calling it THE FOG that's fine.

And if your WS is using it as an excuse then they just do not GET it. They do not understand what they've done, to you, to their family, to everyone their betrayal touched.

Some WS's may be capable of loving their AP and the BS at the same time, some may not. That depends entirely on what your definition of love is, by the way.


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## ATC529R (Oct 31, 2012)

I got some fog for em


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(spray)


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> Sorry that happened to you. I have seen and heard more truth than I have needed to. Was my WH truthful in between DD1 and DD4....about 50%...the rest came with R.
> 
> FWIW, I think you are either still hurting very much, and if so, I am truly sorry for your pain and wish you well, or I think you are a current or former OW. Hopefully not, because that would be just sad and just like an OW. If I misjudged you, I truly apologize.


Thanks, it sucks daily. I am walking around in a dead like state, always worried. Read my posts and you will know why. No reason to apologize, I am not offended but my hurt never seems to go away. I live my life and happy he came home but I will never get over the fact he wanted someone else so much he was going to divorce me. He is doing the things he should but every day I am getting more vision. How could he keep doing this? I need to read your thread but you mentioned four d-days with the same woman? If he kept seeing her, he loved her.

I hear what he says but really think it was just easier to stay with me and our child and please everyone. I am staying and giving him another chance but my fears are real.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

I don't think anybody has ever said the "fog" CAUSES the cheating.

The fog is a rationalization OF the cheating. 
You have to be predisposed to cheating. An honest person doesn't cheat, fog or not.

The fog happens AFTER the cheating. Personally, I believe that it is real.

I also think the BS are affected by their own fog. The "fog" of denial.

The "fog" is an expression used to describe a condition of the mind where reality is distorted to fit the person's own sense of self. It is a way a cheater can live with themselves. It is a way a BS can live with a cheater.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Hope1964 said:


> I will never understand anyone who makes this kind of blanket statement. My WS is not your WS, so saying something that may be true for yours doesn't make it true for mine.
> 
> [/B]
> 
> ...


 *I agree.*


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Hope and Sigma are correct the fog exists and is very real. 

First, the fog is a description of a state of mind where one is infatuated and detrimentally reprioritizing pre-existing relationships. It is not an excuse merely a description of a state of mind. Second, the fog is real. Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it's not real. It is very real. 

The fog is the same as being under the influence of a drug. It impairs judgement but does not remove the ability to reason. The main trait is that things feel good and the source of the goodness is someone. If its the fog then that someone is the OW/OM because you are married or in an exclusive relationship. For me it (and for many) it started out innocent. You like being with them, talking with them and it feels sooo good. Soon the drug aspect compels you to escalate contact to keep the feeling. Thus the slippery slope is traversed. In the beginning nothing is wrong but at some point boundaries are crossed and other rationalized or ignored. 

For me the crossing point was when I started doing things to be with the OW that I wouldn't do for anyone else but my wife. The excessive communication, gift giving, emotional investment and obsession were the signs. My wife noticed and made off hand remarks. She knew but I didn't. I still wasn't fully aware that I was obsessed with the OW. But those comments planted the seed which made me aware. I knew I was in love with the OW but I didn't know I was out of control. 

Fortunately I was still in love with my wife. After much reflection I figured out that I was being unfaithful to my wife even though the OW had no idea of my feelings. I was having an affair but my affair partner didn't know. I finally figured out that I was unfaithfully investing and escalating contact with an OW. 

I decided to stop the escalation and cut back contact to the point that was normal for a friend. During this period I went through withdrawal and it was extremely hard. But in the end I disclosed to my wife (not and never to the OW) and this was what really helped. 

The fog finally lifted. My boundaries are much stronger. Now I really know where I started going astray. Today I think I can recognize it right away. The problem with the fog is that it builds and is very gradual and subtle. However at some pint it does become recognizable to yourself and your spouse. Fortunately I didn't rationalize it away to a full out reciprocated EA or PA. I was lucky.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

asia said:


> Thanks, it sucks daily. I am walking around in a dead like state, always worried. Read my posts and you will know why. No reason to apologize, I am not offended but my hurt never seems to go away. I live my life and happy he came home but I will never get over the fact he wanted someone else so much he was going to divorce me. He is doing the things he should but every day I am getting more vision. How could he keep doing this? I need to read your thread but you mentioned four d-days with the same woman? If he kept seeing her, he loved her.
> 
> I hear what he says but really think it was just easier to stay with me and our child and please everyone. I am staying and giving him another chance but my fears are real.


This is my take (and I am a glass half-full kind of woman). 4 DDs....3 burner phones....he was messed up. Did he love her, he said he thought he did. He was attracted to her, but it was more of a thrill. He was addicted to the thrill of her, to the fantasy of a few days only they saw of each other. The rest was texts and naked pics...classy, but I suppose if I wanted to get a guys attention I might end some XXX pics too. When it was just us, he felt in love again, like it never left. Then when we were apart (work, store, whatever), his mind was left to wander. She was the new toy. He loved his old toys, but he still wanted to play with the other one for awhile. He struggled with his feelings. And there is nothing easy about staying in a marriage that has been torn apart by an affair. If you think it is easier to stay than to leave, you might want to try and stick it out for a bit longer, if that is what you want....you will see that there is nothing easy about it, but when 2 people love each other - real heartfelt love not clouded by lust, it is worth it.

As for one of your other comments earlier...sorry, but an OW or OM is less of a person than a BS...and they are not a good person WHEN they fully know that a person is married and have no problem going into an affair with them. They are a lowly bunch of people with some serious issues that they may never figure out. JMHO.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

Cedarman said:


> *It is a way a BS can live with a cheater*.


I aree - and I think that is part of the reason why a spouse may initially choose to suck it up when another DD hits - because they want to believe that this time is it. Until the BS gets to a point where they are ready to walk if needed, a bit of fog exhists. Until a WS gets to the point where they realize "what have I done? I screwed up. I don't want this, I want my family", they are in a bit of the fogas well. 

Wishful thinking on both parts that everything will be alright.

I think the WS has to become indifferent to the AP and the BS has to become indifferent to the marriage...that's when the turning point happens for true R...IMO.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

meson said:


> Hope and Sigma are correct the fog exists and is very real.
> 
> First, the fog is a description of a state of mind where one is infatuated and detrimentally reprioritizing pre-existing relationships. It is not an excuse merely a description of a state of mind. Second, the fog is real. Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean it's not real. It is very real.
> 
> ...


Exactly. My H's sheer amount of communication with AP was far beyond anything he'd ever give even to his own children while at work. He constantly worried about her 'feelings' and thoughts. Yet during that time I was miserable, our daughter was very ill and our eldest daughter was leaving for college and he barely noticed any of it. Not something he would ever do in his 'normal' state. NO, the fog is not an excuse. It is an explaination for what they do and how they continue to do the most henious of things that they themselves are mortified by later. My H is still seeing the effects of what he has done. Still seeing just how deep it goes and how far reaching it all is. He is not proud of who/what he became. And THAT is, in part, how it hurts the cheater. When they dont recognize the person in the mirror.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

When I had my revenge affair, looking back on it, it was exactly like being in a fog.
That's the best description for my confused thinking at that time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> As for one of your other comments earlier...sorry, but an OW or OM is less of a person than a BS...and they are not a good person WHEN they fully know that a person is married and have no problem going into an affair with them. They are a lowly bunch of people with some serious issues that they may never figure out. JMHO.


I certainly understand how you feel. I almost hate my husband's OW. I know he had strong feelings for her. But she isn't less of a person than HE is and I don't need to think that to stay with him. You remind me of myself a few years ago when my husband cheated before the way you speak of your marriage, OW, daughters. I don't know everything MY HUSBAND said to her and this woman should not even exist in my world. But she does because he put her their. 

I am so angry today because I saw Valentine's day cards in the grocery store and it just made me so sad. He is my husband and chose to cheat in our marriage. Is he here for me? Because we don't believe in divorce although he asked for one? Because of our daughter and bills together? He can say and do everything right and I will probably always wonder if its the truth.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

asia said:


> I certainly understand how you feel. I almost hate my husband's OW. I know he had strong feelings for her. But she isn't less of a person than HE is and I don't need to think that to stay with him. You remind me of myself a few years ago when my husband cheated before the way you speak of your marriage, OW, daughters. I don't know everything MY HUSBAND said to her and this woman should not even exist in my world. But she does because he put her their.
> 
> I am so angry today because I saw Valentine's day cards in the grocery store and it just made me so sad. He is my husband and chose to cheat in our marriage. Is he here for me? Because we don't believe in divorce although he asked for one? Because of our daughter and bills together? He can say and do everything right and I will probably always wonder if its the truth.


That is the rub isnt it? To some degree, even if it isnt true, we will always feel like Plan B. I know in my head thats not true. I really do. But my heart sometimes betrays me.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

asia said:


> I certainly understand how you feel. I almost hate my husband's OW. I know he had strong feelings for her. But she isn't less of a person than HE is and I don't need to think that to stay with him. You remind me of myself a few years ago when my husband cheated before the way you speak of your marriage, OW, daughters. I don't know everything MY HUSBAND said to her and this woman should not even exist in my world. But she does because he put her their.
> 
> I am so angry today because I saw Valentine's day cards in the grocery store and it just made me so sad. He is my husband and chose to cheat in our marriage. Is he here for me? Because we don't believe in divorce although he asked for one? Because of our daughter and bills together? He can say and do everything right and I will probably always wonder if its the truth.


Oh - I don't hate the OW because she is the OW - I feel sorry for her about that - because I know she is screwed up in the head. Why I dislike her very much is what she did after he tried to break it off with her. At that point, she was at fault for her actions. I don't hate her so that I don't hate my husband. I am not confused about that. My feelings are not misplaced. My life is back on track and I almost couldn't be happier.

Give yourself some time, and if you can't get past it you might need to move on. R is not for everyone. At some point you have to trust yourself that you are strong enough to handle whatever else may come your way and deal with it then. If you love your husband and he loves you and is remorseful, it will be worth it.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> That is the rub isnt it? To some degree, even if it isnt true, we will always feel like Plan B. I know in my head thats not true. I really do. But my heart sometimes betrays me.


...and in reality the OW/OM is the Plan B. In most cases the WS wants from the AP what they really want from their spouse and sometimes are not getting.

That is why to me the AP's are truly the losers because while they may think that they are all that because a married person is cheating with them in reality the chances of them being together are so slim and they eventually come to the conclusion that they are just being used. 

To the OP chances are even if your H left you and was in a relationship with his OW...statistically there is only a 3% chance of a relationship working out that was borne from an affair.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

highwood said:


> ...and in reality the OW/OM is the Plan B. In most cases the WS wants from the AP what they really want from their spouse and sometimes are not getting.
> 
> That is why to me the AP's are truly the losers because while they may think that they are all that because a married person is cheating with them in reality the chances of them being together are so slim and they eventually come to the conclusion that they are just being used.
> 
> To the OP chances are even if your H left you and was in a relationship with his OW...statistically there is only a 3% chance of a relationship working out that was borne from an affair.


Thats exactly right and why I say my head knows better. But my heart still hurts so..... Getting better though.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

canttrustu said:


> That is the rub isnt it? To some degree, even if it isnt true, we will always feel like Plan B. I know in my head thats not true. I really do. But my heart sometimes betrays me.


CTU - the OW was plan B...or door number 2 if you will. We were door number one...but having door number 2 right there cracked open ever so slightly..hmmm...tempting....lets take a look, even though I have something great behind door #1.....oh, this is nice too, but door#1 is starting to close, and I don't want that to happen, so back to it I will go!

Where does your hubs lay his head at night these days? That's his choice. Final answer!


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> CTU - the OW was plan B...or door number 2 if you will. We were door number one...but having door number 2 right there cracked open ever so slightly..hmmm...tempting....lets take a look, even though I have something great behind door #1.....oh, this is nice too, but door#1 is starting to close, and I don't want that to happen, so back to it I will go!
> 
> *Where does your hubs lay his head at night these days*? That's his choice. Final answer!


Well since this is a family show...... No. In all seriousness, I know youre right. Im getting there. Really. As I said previously, If he'd wanted to restart with her he had every opportunity to do so. He didnt. 'nuf said.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

highwood said:


> ...and in reality the OW/OM is the Plan B. In most cases the WS wants from the AP what they really want from their spouse and sometimes are not getting.


*THIS*: :iagree:

Except I would change it to read that "In most cases the WS _tries to find with_ the AP what they really want from their spouse and sometimes are not getting." Unfortunately, they destroy their own family, including themselves, in the process. The irony is that they very rarely find what they were looking for in the arms of their AP.


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## daggeredheart (Feb 21, 2012)

Asia- it's ok to not be ok. Your choice of words make you seem scared and that's perfectly fine. We've all felt fear. We all worry that we are "loved" by our partners unconditionally. When our security is taken away, we continue to live with that post traumatic stress. 

You have a child, do you work outside the home? I remember being so petrified of how I would take care of myself. I've been a stay at home mom for 9 years and I didn't know where to start. It's not how I had envisioned my life. I had always thought I would be that stay at home mom I never had. I pictured fresh baked cookies, helping with homework, volunteering at school. The whole June Clever package, so when that got stripped, I freaked out. 

For the first 8 months or so after D-day I questioned everything about love, what it means or doesn't mean. How fleeting it is. One second you think it's endless and then the well dries up. I searched in vain for signs of enduring love. I'm still looking for examples and when I do find them, I just bask in it. 

I think you are looking for signs of his love for you......the cards all reminders that now yours is feeling tainted by his cheating. It is.....and it does suck and it's a real mind jack. You wonder from here on out if everything he says is sugar coated or real. You wait to see if the next shoe will drop. It might in 3, 15, or 20 years but then again it might not.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

highwood said:


> ...and in reality the OW/OM is the Plan B. In most cases the WS wants from the AP what they really want from their spouse and sometimes are not getting.
> 
> That is why to me the AP's are truly the losers because while they may think that they are all that because a married person is cheating with them in reality the chances of them being together are so slim and they eventually come to the conclusion that they are just being used.
> 
> To the OP chances are even if your H left you and was in a relationship with his OW...statistically there is only a 3% chance of a relationship working out that was borne from an affair.


I think this is where I am different from other BS's. I think his AP is the winner. She can go on with her life, find someone who may or may not do this to her. Also, whatever my husband thought I lacked, he found in someone else!!!! My husband is not the prince to be had and honored to keep. He is supposed to be mine anyway and to put me in a place where there was someone else makes me LOSE IT!! Here I am stuck with him and these imposing thoughts and his AP gets to live her life. He gets to "find" what I am lacking and "somehow manage" to keep his thing in his pants. (Can you see I am not having the greatest, reconciliation day...lol)


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> Well since this is a family show...... No. In all seriousness, I know youre right. Im getting there. Really. As I said previously, If he'd wanted to restart with her he had every opportunity to do so. He didnt. 'nuf said.



Lol!! Family show. I like that, first real laugh I had all day. 

I wish I felt that because he's here, he really wants to be here. Like Cantrustu, I am trying.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

asia said:


> I think this is where I am different from other BS's. I think his AP is the winner. She can go on with her life, find someone who may or may not do this to her. Also, whatever my husband thought I lacked, he found in someone else!!!! My husband is not the prince to be had and honored to keep. He is supposed to be mine anyway and to put me in a place where there was someone else makes me LOSE IT!! Here I am stuck with him and these imposing thoughts and his AP gets to live her life. He gets to "find" what I am lacking and "somehow manage" to keep his thing in his pants. (Can you see I am not having the greatest, reconciliation day...lol)


Her life may not be all that you think. Sometimes on the outside it looks like someone has it all but in reality they do not.

You are not stuck with him...if you truly do not want to be in this marriage with him then leave. Life is too short to waste on a frog my dear!


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

Maybe a separation is what you need in order to work on yourself...because you have to get to that place where you think yes I am a great catch and any guy would be lucky to have me. That comes from working on yourself both physically and mentally.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

asia said:


> I think this is where I am different from other BS's. I think his AP is the winner. She can go on with her life, find someone who may or may not do this to her. Also, whatever my husband thought I lacked, he found in someone else!!!! My husband is not the prince to be had and honored to keep. He is supposed to be mine anyway and to put me in a place where there was someone else makes me LOSE IT!! Here I am stuck with him and these imposing thoughts and his AP gets to live her life. He gets to "find" what I am lacking and "somehow manage" to keep his thing in his pants. (Can you see I am not having the greatest, reconciliation day...lol)


I don't see how she can be the winner. If your husband just left you - that shows you what a loser, quitter, weak man he is - so you would be the winner to get rid of him. Since he decided to stay and you have decided to give him the chance, you are the winner, because you want to give him the chance and the bll is in your court.

One thing my hubs said to me was that the OW was so mad because she felt I beat her (seriously, like I was supposed to compete with her - an outsider, for my own husband of 15 years - see - there is no logic with an AP - they are self centered and noone else exists in their world but them). Then he followed up by saying, "not that I am a prize or anything for doing what I have done". 

At one point, I thought she had won. The fantasy of a marriage I had was gone. But then if you think of winning or losing over a person - then that person can't mean that much to you. A person is not an object to be won. Its the realationship, the love, the life, the memories that are worth fighting for, not a person, not to beat someone else. That is what a WS is to an AP - because (at least in short term affairs), there is no real invesment with each other. They want to prove they are better than the WS's own husband/wife. It makes them feel good. Sick and twisted. Of course, the WS is fully to blame for allowing this to happen, but some APs get nasty when they start to "lose".

Your hubs is yours if you want him and if he is recommitted to you. It hurts like hell, and you will question your own motives at times, but take a step back. What is the ultimate goal. Can you love him again, even with a bit of doubt? Can you take that leap? If you can, you have made it over the first hurdle with yourself. You still can have a great marriage. 

Again, he is yours...broken, stupid, but yours. Do you still want him? 

Sounds like the VDay cards are triggering you terribly. I was tiggered when I was looking for father's day cards last year. To give him a card that said he was such a great dad....I was not ready to do that....it wasn't true. I cried and it wasn't because I was reading a Hallmark card. Now, he is becomming a great dad...he is so close. Time and patience and giving yourself credit. Cutting them some slack if they are truly remorseful. You can't punish someone forever and expect them to want to stay even if they are the one who wronged you.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

In the grand scheme of things... The healthiest thing you can do for yourself right now, is to believe there is no such thing as fog.

It was never an excuse anyway.


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Yes. Serial cheaters are not fogged up. They are fvcked up.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> I don't see how she can be the winner. If your husband just left you - that shows you what a loser, quitter, weak man he is - so you would be the winner to get rid of him. Since he decided to stay and you have decided to give him the chance, you are the winner, because you want to give him the chance and the bll is in your court.
> 
> One thing my hubs said to me was that the OW was so mad because she felt I beat her (seriously, like I was supposed to compete with her - an outsider, for my own husband of 15 years - see - there is no logic with an AP - they are self centered and noone else exists in their world but them). Then he followed up by saying, "not that I am a prize or anything for doing what I have done".
> 
> ...


Your last sentence really hit home with me...sometimes I feel I am obsessed with what H did that I will use every opportunity to make a comment about it to him and I think that is not good for our marriage and not good for me. I think it just incites my obsession and does not allow me to heal from this. 

I cannot keep punishing him over and over for what he did which is what I am doing constantly.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

After reading all of the different responses, I see why I see mine differently. My husband is a serial cheater so it's not like he can say I thought I was in love but wasn't when he's done it so many times. The last one was the serious relationship.

I am considering leaving. I was so happy and thrilled just to have him back home (after he left me) that I didn't really think about anything else. My husband did fall in love with her and I can't get over it, I can't stop thinking about his lies. I know what she looks like and it is an image burned in my skull. But she didn't call me or torture me like some other OW do. I sort of wish she did so I could have asked some questions. 

One that hurts is she never fought to keep him like LookingForTheSun OW. She just left. I told him even though he ended things, he was willingly to leave our marriage for a person who wasn't up for fighting for him. I have fought like heck to keep our family together and he left me for someone who could care less. Will write more after a mtg. Thanks for listening.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

highwood said:


> Your last sentence really hit home with me...sometimes I feel I am obsessed with what H did that I will use every opportunity to make a comment about it to him and I think that is not good for our marriage and not good for me. I think it just incites my obsession and does not allow me to heal from this.
> 
> I cannot keep punishing him over and over for what he did which is what I am doing constantly.


Highwood - I am so happy that I said something to help  I know the hurt is so bad that you just want them to suffer for the pain they caused. They could not possibly feel the pain we are. Not possible. However, we can't feel the pain of a truly remorseful spouse either. I can't begin to imagine having to live with myself after doing something like that...a different kind of pain. One that you can't just say - I am better than that person, so I am going to rise above it. No, they are that person and they know it. 

As long as your spouse finally gets it, shows true remorse and is checked back in, you do need to stop punishing them. They will punish themselves and at times, without you even knowing it (when you trigger), they will get another round of it. If they are truly remorseful, it won't just go away. They trigger too, only their triggers turn from missing/obsessing about the AP to hating themselves for what they did, how they hurt you, and wanting to go back in time and fully invest in you. 

If it helps, take comfort in knowing that they punish themselves so you don't have too. One day, you will wish that they could stop the punishment and move on too, because you will want all of the hurt to go away and healing to begin for both of you.


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## Bee2012 (Dec 8, 2012)

Asia,
I am sorry you are going through this. I have been following your posts and it seems like you are getting stronger everyday. I know before you weren't considering leaving bc of your religious beliefs. 
I can totally relate.
It doesn't sound like your husband is in a fog at all. Just that he is extremely selfish and narcissitic. Only a person like that would hurt his wife and family multiple times, and not make an effort to do the heavy lifting when you have graciously taken him back. He should be bending over backwards with gratitude that you gave him this chance.
Best of luck to you and you are in my thoughts and prayers.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

So true! I honestly think that H when this was going on had no clue about the depth of the hurt he would cause. I can see it in him when we discuss what happened..I can see the tears well up in his eyes. I think he knows how selfish and stupid his actions were and how much hurt he caused me.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

asia said:


> After reading all of the different responses, I see why I see mine differently. My husband is a serial cheater so it's not like he can say I thought I was in love but wasn't when he's done it so many times. The last one was the serious relationship.
> 
> I am considering leaving. I was so happy and thrilled just to have him back home (after he left me) that I didn't really think about anything else. My husband did fall in love with her and I can't get over it, I can't stop thinking about his lies. I know what she looks like and it is an image burned in my skull. But she didn't call me or torture me like some other OW do. I sort of wish she did so I could have asked some questions.
> 
> One that hurts is she never fought to keep him like LookingForTheSun OW. She just left. I told him even though he ended things, he was willingly to leave our marriage for a person who wasn't up for fighting for him. I have fought like heck to keep our family together and he left me for someone who could care less. Will write more after a mtg. Thanks for listening.


Where is your husband now? With you? If you want him, he is there - you just have a lot to work through. If you don't think you can ever work through it, you may need to move on. 

I would think that knowing the OW did not fight for him would offer you some relief. At least she hopefully will never try to contact him again.

The OW in my story...she was pi$$ed about not "winning"....she was looking for a sugar daddy. She didn't fight for him. What she did was quite the opposite of love. She tried to screw him up even more in the head than he was. She played games, lied about everything, and he did not see it until after he finally went NC. She was good at seducing (thats how she survived - those were her working skills), but she had no heart, no depth. She tried to string him along and put an even bigger wedge between us and in the end it only brought us closer together.

In the beginning, I fought for our family. I thought it was hopeless, but I refused to give up. He is THANKFUL that I did. I wasn't even sure I wanted us at one point. I was exhausted. Maybe that is where you are. But, time and hard work...and I was able to fall in love with him, because once he dropped the bomb, I was not in love with him. I was in love with who I thought he was....I was fighting for my family and fighting for what we once had. Now, I know who he is...a changed man for the MUCH better.

You need to take a long hard look at your husband and see where his heart is now. Then decide what you want to do.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

highwood said:


> So true! I honestly think that H when this was going on had no clue about the depth of the hurt he would cause. I can see it in him when we discuss what happened..I can see the tears well up in his eyes. I think he knows how selfish and stupid his actions were and how much hurt he caused me.




When we were in false R, the emotions weren't there...just the words. That should have been the flashing red light for me, but I wanted to believe. Now, hubs gets emotional, tears, cries (and he is not one for tears), but when he sees me hurt, or a trigger comes on or a scene from a movie about being or not being a great father or husband......its all over. If my hubs could take it all back he would.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

To Asia, I think if you feel that your husband is just going thru the motions and has no regrets about what he has done or appears to always be searching for someone else then yes I think you should consider leaving. You deserve better than him.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> When we were in false R, the emotions weren't there...just the words. That should have been the flashing red light for me, but I wanted to believe. Now, hubs gets emotional, tears, cries (and he is not one for tears), but when he sees me hurt, or a trigger comes on or a scene from a movie about being or not being a great father or husband......its all over. If my hubs could take it all back he would.


Just a side note as well, H was suffering due to being on SSRI's from ED and low to no libido for 2 or 3 years before we had DD#1. NOt offering that as an excuse but I think for a man that is a highly difficult and emotional thing to experience and it casued him alot of confusion because he was not aware that the SSRI's were causing it. From what I hear from men that is devestating for them.


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> Highwood - I am so happy that I said something to help  I can't begin to imagine having to live with myself after doing something like that...a different kind of pain. One that you can't just say - I am better than that person, so I am going to rise above it. No, they are that person and they know it.......
> 
> They will punish themselves and at times, without you even knowing it (when you trigger), they will get another round of it. If they are truly remorseful, it won't just go away. They trigger too, only their triggers turn from missing/obsessing about the AP to hating themselves for what they did, how they hurt you, and wanting to go back in time and fully invest in you......
> 
> If it helps, take comfort in knowing that they punish themselves so you don't have too. One day, you will wish that they could stop the punishment and move on too, because you will want all of the hurt to go away and healing to begin for both of you.


As a former WS, I can tell you that you have articulated this so well. I could easily have written every word of this, myself. I think that my BS is already at a point, after 7 1/2 months since D-Day, where he wishes that I could forgive myself as completely as he has forgiven me. 

As a BS, you have an incredible amount of insight into the mind of a genuinely remorseful WS. How fortunate for your WH. I hope that he is willing/able to do the work on himself that is necessary to be worthy of your gift of understanding. If not, your gift says more about you, then it does about him.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

EI said:


> As a former WS, I can tell you that you have articulated this so well. I could easily have written every word of this, myself. I think that my BS is already at a point, after 7 1/2 months since D-Day, where he wishes that I could forgive myself as completely as he has forgiven me.
> 
> As a BS, you have an incredible amount of insight into the mind of a genuinely remorseful WS. How fortunate for your WH. I hope that he is willing/able to do the work on himself that is necessary to be worthy of your gift of understanding. If not, your gift says more about you, then it does about him.


Thanks EI  I am glad that you commented and reinforced my feelings toward my WH and my thought processes.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> I would think that knowing the OW did not fight for him would offer you some relief. At least she hopefully will never try to contact him again.


No I am relieved but I look at him like "she didn't even think you were worth keeping if she just left and I am here doing cartwheels to keep you". Although he left her, its not like she went away screaming and kicking. If I'm being honest, I feel like he has more respect for her than me. He doesn't speak about her but I remember when he was in the affair and how he was so focused on everything wrong with me. This could all be in my head because I pick on so many things lately.

I am beginning to see how things really are between us. Serial cheating is not something I can fix and I am tried of trying. Three different d-days and not convinced there won't be another one. I am still here but it has been so hard to live with. He says all the right things and I know where he is all of the time. But he fooled me with all that before.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

asia said:


> So are you saying when you and your spouse fell in love, you were in a fog? Because I will tell you right now, most of us on CWI do not think of our dating process as fog. We see it as falling/being in love. (Not trying to sound combative.  )


Falling in love and "fog" are the same thing in my opinion.

This bothers a lot of folks though. They want to look at falling in love as true love and the fantasy love of an AP as being less credible. I see both sides. Affair love that is called fog is IMO less credible. 

But whatever you call it, it exists. I do NOT think it is an excuse for anything. People must be accountable. However, many people benefit from having knowledge and understanding that falling in love is an addiction can help those folks. It is the same brain chemicals as with drug addiction. 

This said where it may help some to understand is when they wish to R. If they wish to R then they are better prepared for the WS to go through withdrawal. There is nothing fake about this withdrawal.

I personally could not R if there was a PA and a deep EA. One where unfaithful choices were occuring, but that is just me. The fact is though that people both love and can fall in love with friends. YMMV.

I believe most EAs are not intentional and more over I feel they are very widespread with folks not realizing they are in an EA and are sucking the life out of their marriage. Understanding this is key. To ignore this process is to create great risk of it occuring.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

No a PA is a choice,I'd never attempt an R,I know I just couldnt
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

They actually say the hardest affairs to recover from are the ones in which there is both a PA and an EA....that I could see hands down.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

highwood said:


> They actually say the hardest affairs to recover from are the ones in which there is both a PA and an EA....that I could see hands down.


I can see that,I've heard it both ways.
Some say an EA is much easier,I've heard some say that a PA is easier because it was just sex.
I could never kiss my wifed again,just too hard
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I just wanna say, at counselling one day our counsellor said sometimes we make unconcious decisions. I disagreed, I knew what I was doing and chose to do it. She said something about an alcoholic walking in a bar and getting a drink. It is still in my eyes a bad choice they made. I feel the fog is more of already being caught up in something. More like an addiction and definately when you are in an affair your mind is so distracted that you don't think straight and land up not caring about anyone or anything else going on around you. Once you let go of that addiction you do think more clearly. Just my opinion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> I just wanna say, at counselling one day our counsellor said sometimes we make unconcious decisions. I disagreed, I knew what I was doing and chose to do it. She said something about an alcoholic walking in a bar and getting a drink. It is still in my eyes a bad choice they made. I feel the fog is more of already being caught up in something. More like an addiction and definately when you are in an affair your mind is so distracted that you don't think straight and land up not caring about anyone or anything else going on around you. Once you let go of that addiction you do think more clearly. Just my opinion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I agree with the addiction theme...I know H said on DD#2 that it was strange because he felt he was addicted to the online crap between him and his AP. I think that he was not addicted to her but more the flattery/the feel good/escape kind of interaction they had between them. Plus for him it was safe because she lived across the ocean he knew that nothing was every going to happen but he kept it going for the fact it felt good.


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

calvin said:


> I can see that,I've heard it both ways.
> Some say an EA is much easier,I've heard some say that a PA is easier because it was just sex.
> I could never kiss my wifed again,just too hard
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You know, when he said it was only physical, I was able to deal with that easier. Now that he had an EA and PA with the same person is more hurtful. If I let myself believe he was in a fog, I am giving him an excuse and I will not do that again. If he meant his feelings for he when he said them or not, they were still DURING his marriage to me. I'm realizing if I look at her like any other woman (and not hate her, demean her like I do 99% of the day), then the problem is him. When I give him "fog" excuses, its not 100% his fault.

I think when your spouse does either or, you cling to the one thinking the other (EA or PA) would be worse to mitigate some of the pain. For women, the thought of our husbands loving another woman is the worse. Connecting with another person the way it was designed to be with your wife sucks.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

asia said:


> You know, when he said it was only physical, I was able to deal with that easier. Now that he had an EA and PA with the same person is more hurtful. If I let myself believe he was in a fog, I am giving him an excuse and I will not do that again. If he meant his feelings for he when he said them or not, they were still DURING his marriage to me. I'm realizing if I look at her like any other woman (and not hate her, demean her like I do 99% of the day), then the problem is him. When I give him "fog" excuses, its not 100% his fault.
> 
> I think when your spouse does either or, you cling to the one thinking the other (EA or PA) would be worse to mitigate some of the pain. For women, the thought of our husbands loving another woman is the worse. Connecting with another person the way it was designed to be with your wife sucks.


Yeah,I dont know what my wife was thinking (CSS) the guy had nothing,and I mean nothing,he was here hs bf,they didnt have sex back then and he didnt get it this time but I now thats what he was after,that and a roof over his head by having CSS try and kick me out.He did it to a couple other families before.
He just paid her all kinds of cheap compliments and she ate it up,she even said she loved him,after I broke it up she saw the real him,al low life dirtbag.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

calvin said:


> Yeah,I dont know what my wife was thinking (CSS) the guy had nothing,and I mean nothing,he was here hs bf,they didnt have sex back then and he didnt get it this time but I now thats what he was after,that and a roof over his head by having CSS try and kick me out.He did it to a couple other families before.
> He just paid her all kinds of cheap compliments and she ate it up,she even said she loved him,after I broke it up she saw the real him,al low life dirtbag.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


But once upon a time he was a better person.

CSS was like someone who takes their goes glasses off and sees things in soft focus. When the glasses go back on the real stuff they see is horrible
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

highwood said:


> They actually say the hardest affairs to recover from are the ones in which there is both a PA and an EA....that I could see hands down.


Absolutely, without a doubt, these are the most difficult types of infidelity to overcome for, both, the WS and the BS. It means that the WS has had an emotional and physical bond with their AP that should have only occurred within the marriage/partner relationship. What's worse is that the BS, who may or may not have known of their WS's discontent within their relationship, together, was completely unaware of their WS's relationship with their AP. On D-Day, and in the weeks and months that follow, the BS's sense of reality is thrown into such a state of confusion that they have no idea what is real and what isn't. They can no longer trust their WS and they no longer trust their own judgement. They don't even know what part of their own past was truly as they believed it to be. 

The one person whom they want and need to turn to for comfort and answers is the one who has thrown them into this new and hellish reality. 

My husband, B1, and I are currently reconciling from this very kind of affair...... A long-term EA/PA. One of the most challenging parts of this for me, the WS, is that B1 looks to me for all of the answers, and for comfort and reassurance and I have to look inward and hope that I can find the answers and continue to find the strength to comfort and reassure him when I feel so broken, uncomfortable and unsure, myself.

I wish I could turn back time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

EI said:


> Absolutely, without a doubt, these are the most difficult types of infidelity to overcome for, both, the WS and the BS. It means that the WS has had an emotional and physical bond with their AP that should have only occurred within the marriage/partner relationship. What's worse is that the BS, who may or may not have known of their WS's discontent within their relationship, together, was completely unaware of their WS's relationship with their AP. On D-Day, and in the weeks and months that follow, the BS's sense of reality is thrown into such a state of confusion that they have no idea what is real and what isn't. They can no longer trust their WS and they no longer trust their own judgement. They don't even know what part of their own past was really what they believed it to be.
> The one person whom they want and need to turn to for comfort and answers is the one who has thrown them into this new and hellish reality.
> 
> My husband, B1, and I are currently reconciling from this very kind of affair...... A long-term EA/PA. One of the most challenging parts of this for me, the WS, is that B1 looks to me for all of the answers, and for comfort and reassurance and I have to look inward and hope that I can find the answers and continue to find the strength to comfort and reassure him when I feel so broken, uncomfortable and unsure, myself.
> ...


In my case I knew of my H's discontent with our relationship he would try and talk to me about what he was feeling and I just ignored it and brushed it under the rug. Astonishingly I even remember thinking it is not like he would ever cheat on me...

I read somewhere recently where a WS said to their BS, "you were comfortable with a marriage with no intimacy but I was not"...that sums up exactly what my H was feeling, he even said something similar to that.

As angry as I get with him and not justifying what he did at times I think yes I did not do anything on my end to work on the marriage preaffair. For that I am somewhat ashamed...and I think that some of my anger, not all, but some of it is probably likely anger at myself for being so complacement years ago.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> But once upon a time he was a better person.
> 
> CSS was like someone who takes their goes glasses off and sees things in soft focus. When the glasses go back on the real stuff they see is horrible
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


no he wasnt,he never graduated high school,he went to prision,he somehow convinced CSS he was innocent,years later hhe admitted the truth
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

highwood said:


> In my case I knew of my H's discontent with our relationship he would try and talk to me about what he was feeling and I just ignored it and brushed it under the rug. Astonishingly I even remember thinking it is not like he would ever cheat on me...
> 
> I read somewhere recently where a WS said to their BS, "you were comfortable with a marriage with no intimacy but I was not"...that sums up exactly what my H was feeling, he even said something similar to that.
> 
> As angry as I get with him and not justifying what he did at times I think yes I did not do anything on my end to work on the marriage preaffair. For that I am somewhat ashamed...and I think that some of my anger, not all, but some of it is probably likely anger at myself for being so complacement years ago.


You could have, actually, read that in my original thread. Yes, I told my husband over and over how unhappy I was. We had had no physical or emotional intimacy for a very long time and I pleaded with him to work with me on our marriage. I went to therapy, worked on myself first, inside and out, and tried to be a better spouse before I asked for anything from him. After spending over a decade, of our nearly 27 year marriage (at the time,) in a dying relationship, devoid of emotion and practically sexless, I spent the last 3 years pre-A trying everything I could to work on me, our marriage and trying to get him to work with me. He could hear me, but he wasn't listening. He told me to just accept it.... It wasn't going to get better. I told him that I couldn't.

Still, neither of us were prepared for the aftermath of my choice of actions and his choice of inaction. So, here we are, today, trying to build a new marriage out of the ruins of our old one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

But then sometimes out of crap comes good...sometimes people need a shake up in order to take a good look at themselves.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

EI said:


> You could have, actually, read that in my original thread. Yes, I told my husband over and over how unhappy I was. We had had no physical or emotional intimacy for a very long time and I pleaded with him to work with me on our marriage. I went to therapy, worked on myself first, inside and out, and tried to be a better spouse before I asked for anything from him. After spending over a decade, of our nearly 27 year marriage (at the time,) in a dying relationship, devoid of emotion and practically sexless, I spent the last 3 years pre-A trying everything I could to work on me, our marriage and trying to get him to work with me. He could hear me, but he wasn't listening. He told me to just accept it.... It wasn't going to get better. I told him that I couldn't.
> 
> Still, neither of us were prepared for the aftermath of my choice of actions and his choice of inaction. So, here we are, today, trying to build a new marriage out of the ruins of our old one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


With you tho it is so different because B1 is more loving and affectionate with you. If only it didn't take having a A for him to change...that's the part that makes it hard. uggg I hate hate hate what I did to Calvin and I know you feel the same. Calvin has all my heart 100% I love him way too much to do anything like that again. I do not want to talk to any male no matter how innocent the intention. I just wishwishwish I never did this. It's hell seeing him hurt : (
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EI (Jun 12, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> With you tho it is so different because B1 is more loving and affectionate with you. If only it didn't take having a A for him to change...that's the part that makes it hard. uggg I hate hate hate what I did to Calvin and I know you feel the same. Calvin has all my heart 100% I love him way too much to do anything like that again. I do not want to talk to any male no matter how innocent the intention. I just wishwishwish I never did this. It's hell seeing him hurt : (
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Yes, B1 has become the most loving, attentive, caring, understanding, forgiving and amazing husband in the world. He is everything I ever wanted and so much more than I even dared to dream of. But, he is also the most hurt that I have ever seen him. And, here I am, still having to face myself in the mirror every morning..... and what's worse, I have to face B1 and my precious children, as well..... every day for the rest of my life. I have to live with knowing what I did. The very people in this world that love me and that I love the most are the ones whom I hurt the most. I have to live with me..... there is no escape from that..... ever. I hate that I made that choice, I hate that I betrayed B1, my children and myself. 

Does that mean that I have the answers as to what I should have done? No. Does that mean that when I told him that I could not live that way for one day longer that I was exaggerating or making things up? No. In my hopelessness, loneliness, defeated and broken state, I began to imagine ways to go to sleep and not wake up in the mornings. I knew that I could never leave my children, but I also knew that if my mind could not stop those intrusive thoughts that I had to do something, anything..... to ease my pain, I had to find some reason to wake up in the mornings. I needed a human connection, almost any kind of connection. Call it what you will, but I believe that most humans need touch, talk, compassion, hope.

I still don't know what I could have done, I only know what I should not have done. I shouldn't have had an affair. Reaching B1 was something that was beyond my capabilities. He only allowed his walls to come down when the cost of leaving them up became too high. I couldn't reach him with my suffering. When he felt the pain of rejection, loneliness, hopelessness and betrayal, his walls came tumbling down......

So, together, he and I are fighting our way back to one another. Not back to the old marriage. That marriage really was dead. I couldn't go back to that..... neither could he. We are trying to build a new marriage..... one day at a time.

This is taking BOTH of us everything we have within us........ We are now experiencing real joy, real happiness, real hope and real love. But, there is an underlying sadness.... a wish that we could have gotten to this place without so much collateral damage to ourselves and to those whom we love.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

"The Fog" is not a term that is used to excuse responsibility.

Rather, the person you knew before has become a pod person, this unconscionable sociopath in dealings with their spouse - capable of ghastly acts that were unimaginable to you before. 

How can you describe this wretched state succinctly? I think the issue here is that people who don't like the term Fog are wishing to use a term that describes the pain and suffering of the victim, the horror and depths of depravity involved instead of the state of mind for the wayward spouse.

The wayward spouse has put themsevles in a condition where they do not empathize with the pain they are causing, the level of betrayal, the wide circle of victims extending outward in concentric rings... so I can understand why this blindness is described as a fog. But surely it is self-induced, with them in charge of the machine creating the fog. 

I understand the objection. But I have no superior term to offer in its place that highlights the accountability in a snappy way.

Can anyone think of a better term? I bet if we can come up with one people would use it.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

It's a ridiculous thing to do, absoluletly inexcusable and yet it's all over the place. All over reality tv and movies as if it's just a way of life anymore. It is so harmful and people just need to think about the consequences instead of saying "it just happened" that's bs. I did that horrible hurtful thing myself because I felt our marriage was dead. Oh I am very very pissed at myself . There are other ways of dealing with marital problems. People need to face their problems instead of escaping into a fantasyland that isn't real.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Cheaters are not created equal. They come in various flavors and every flavor taste like sh!t. On occasion people cheat once and feel the weight of the wrong they've done. They don't cheat again. But probably more often a cheater will repeat. 

- opportunist who get what ever they can get away with.
- depressed who are looking for anything to not feel numb.
- foggers/dreamers who naively let feelings develop and then have no self control.

Instant gratification and lack of responsibility are rampid. Infidelity is merely one consequence.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Thundarr said:


> Cheaters are not created equal. They come in various flavors and every flavor taste like sh!t. On occasion people cheat once and feel the weight of the wrong they've done. They don't cheat again. But probably more often a cheater will repeat.
> 
> - opportunist who get what ever they can get away with.
> - depressed who are looking for anything to not feel numb.
> ...


Yes there are those who did it and did stop before it went way too far,then there are those who have to be slapped back into reality,then they see the damage they have done and are disgusted by their actions.I'm lucky mine had to be slapped...am I?? Anyway,she saw it,why she didnt before I'll never know.
There are other who pretend to be outraged and keep doing it on the sly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> I aree - and I think that is part of the reason why a spouse may initially choose to suck it up when another DD hits - because they want to believe that this time is it. Until the BS gets to a point where they are ready to walk if needed, a bit of fog exhists. Until a WS gets to the point where they realize "what have I done? I screwed up. I don't want this, I want my family", they are in a bit of the fogas well.
> 
> Wishful thinking on both parts that everything will be alright.
> 
> I think the WS has to become indifferent to the AP and the BS has to become indifferent to the marriage...that's when the turning point happens for true R...IMO.


For me, this sums it up perfectly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> Falling in love and "fog" are the same thing in my opinion.



I disagree. I think falling in love (i.e. "true" love) is falling in love with the other person. The "fog" is falling in love with the feeling of falling in love. The AP is almost immaterial. That's why you often hear of a WS having an affair with a "loser". Or a WS coming out of the fog and realizing "WTF was I thinking?". 

(Note - I realize that some affairs ARE "true" love, but I believe these are in the minority).


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Cedarman said:


> I disagree. I think falling in love (i.e. "true" love) is falling in love with the other person. The "fog" is falling in love with the feeling of falling in love. The AP is almost immaterial. That's why you often hear of a WS having an affair with a "loser". Or a WS coming out of the fog and realizing "WTF was I thinking?".
> 
> (Note - I realize that some affairs ARE "true" love, but I believe these are in the minority).


I basically said exactly that further in my post. That the affair is a fantasy and has less credibility. But from a pure human imperative to fall in love and repopulate the planet the same stuff is in play.

The thing is that when people fall in love before they are married they typically have a WTF moment and break up anyway. 

The advantage and the disadvantage that a married couple has is that they have binded over time. They have been through thick and thin. The affair fantasy is an easy thing. But it is not based on the trials and tribulation a couple has faced together. But it is a double edged sword and some people like to cake eat.

Anyway, my biggest point besides philosophy is that this is powerful stuff and too many people discount the power, have poor boundaries and think they have too much character to fail. The thing is being naive about EAs is a prerequisite for having one in the first place. People who have true EAs never intend to have an affair, have poor boundaries and an ego that tells them they are too smart and too good to fall in love with someone else. During the early stages of an EA most people just think they are very close friends. 

People who go into any affair intentually are not who I am talking about. Those people have very poor character and are pretty much not worth having as a spouse anyway.

So one has to understand the difference. For sure there are shades of gray. 

I have the following view :

Inappropriate Behavior -> Unfaithfulness -> Cheating

For most people it starts with inappropriate behavior / poor boundaries. Most people also depend on theri character but use their feelings as a gauge. It is the feelings that encourages the slippery slope. Because it feels ok. It is almost always justified. The EA grows and etracts from the primary relationship. History rewriting begins and so on. Rationalization. They do not understand what is happening to them. They are naive and have an ego that says they are immune. But I do agree at some point there is a leap to unfaithfulness and at some point things become willful. This is the confused part. The fog. The person becomes conflicted. The become ... an idiot.

Anyway, as for me my wife said I was getting to close to a co-worker. I thought we were just good friends. BUT I listened to my wife because I trusted her to look out for us. So I changed jobs. A very significant job I might add as a chief technologist at my company. BUT gain my wife was what was important to me. After I went through withdrawal I realized she was right. I had that ego that said I had too much character to bond with someone else. I was naive. YMMV.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Entropy3000 said:


> So one has to understand the difference. For sure there are shades of gray.
> 
> I have the following view :
> 
> ...



Agree with this. One of the reasons I started the "Training to Cheat" thread is because I believe that many people start something without realizing where it is going. Something as simple as one text saying "hello" can cause a chain of events leading to an EA/PA. Baby steps towards an affair because your brain is being rewarded. The "fog" allows this to happen because the "fog" is a state of mind that rationalizes your behaviour, allowing you to take another step.

People with character eventually realize, or are made to realize what is happening and will break the cycle and come out of the fog. You were able to break the cycle - congratulations and good for you. Weaker people, people predisposed to cheat, or with a propensity to lie will allow the fog to take over their lives and will eventually end up in an EA or full blown PA.


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## Thundarr (Jul 4, 2012)

Listening to posters on TAM especially the ones who've found themselves in EA or more, has given me more respect for controlling your environment or at least for avoiding tempting situations. Boundaries I suppose is the word. I already leaned this way but that belief has been reinforced. 

asia's(OP) husband doesn't really fit the whole fog thing because he's a serial cheater which is a different animal so I can see why she's tired of hearing about the fog. Serial cheaters are a relational lost cause any way you cut it and they aren't who most of us are talking about when we mention fog.


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

EI said:


> Absolutely, without a doubt, these are the most difficult types of infidelity to overcome for, both, the WS and the BS. It means that the WS has had an emotional and physical bond with their AP that should have only occurred within the marriage/partner relationship. What's worse is that the BS, who may or may not have known of their WS's discontent within their relationship, together, was completely unaware of their WS's relationship with their AP. On D-Day, and in the weeks and months that follow, the BS's sense of reality is thrown into such a state of confusion that they have no idea what is real and what isn't. They can no longer trust their WS and they no longer trust their own judgement. They don't even know what part of their own past was truly as they believed it to be.
> 
> The one person whom they want and need to turn to for comfort and answers is the one who has thrown them into this new and hellish reality.
> 
> ...


And now you say what I would have said  Yep - as a BS you question when, if any time in your marriage was anything real. If your WS was doing one thing, living with a lie, did any of those special moments after mean anything? 

I asked my hubs when he finally went NC, "Who are you?" He teared up and said "I'm your husband", and I said "who is he?" I really didn't know...that hurt him, but at that point, even he didn't know himself. It was important for me to ask that, because I was afraid to before...afraid that I no longer knew him, what he was capable of. Except for my children, the rest of my world crumbled around me and I struggled to hold on to them. I think without them even knowing, they held onto me and saved me.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

LookingForTheSun said:


> And now you say what I would have said  Yep - as a BS you question when, if any time in your marriage was anything real. If your WS was doing one thing, living with a lie, did any of those special moments after mean anything?
> 
> I asked my hubs when he finally went NC, "Who are you?" He teared up and said "I'm your husband", and I said "who is he?" I really didn't know...that hurt him, but at that point, even he didn't know himself. It was important for me to ask that, because I was afraid to before...afraid that I no longer knew him, what he was capable of. Except for my children, the rest of my world crumbled around me and I struggled to hold on to them. I think without them even knowing, they held onto me and saved me.


yes. i asked my wife the same thing. actually stated it..."i dont even really know who you are. but i know what you are capable of. and i dont understand it."
i have not been able (so far) to reconcile this with the fact that she now wants to stay in our marriage and treat me like her husband instead of "him"...the interloper in her "relationship" with the OM.
it is a very difficult realization when you come to the conclusion that you dont even know the person you married anymore.
the OM told me once "if only you knew who you were married to".
to which i replied, "on the contrary...i know who i married, but you do not. the hateful, deceitful, lying angry woman YOU knew, that she became during yall's toxic "relationship"...thats not who i married". im sure i added a few "fvck yous" in there too lol.


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