# Did I make too much of this (wife's behavior)



## pjbap

My wife is very attractive. She's also quite sociable. She has recently increased her social activities going to networking events in efforts to help her floundering business.

One night she was out later than normal. It was a dreary evening and I started to worry about her. I poked around our office to see if I can find clues to where she might be (she was not answering her cell phone).

I jumped behind her laptop to see if I can find her networking appointment. I saw in the inbox a "see you tonight". I sorted emails by this individual (who actually owns the networking company), and thought of the idea of calling his cell phone. 

I then saw an email entitled "a gift for you". When I opened it up it was a photo of he and my wife with their arms around each other's shoulder and his hand on my wife's thigh (she was wearing a skirt). Again, this email was entitled "a gift for you"

I obviously got curious and I checked out other emails from this dude. He also had sent her an email entitled "WOW, you wouldn't think it...". It's a video clip, very racy, very sexual. Not exactly pornographic, but very suggestive (I think it's one of those racy British commercials.). He sent this to my wife and my wife only. No distribution list, no buddies.

My wife responds favorably to this: She says, "Wow, that is too funny. We are such prudes in this country. If you're ever in England check out some of that stuff there. "Thanks for sharing".

The dude then writes back, "If I haven't yet told you about my thoughts on violence of sex, let's chat.

My wife says "Will you have time, I hope so".

The guy says "yes".

She says "See you tonight".

Now this does not look good, does it. My wife finally gets in touch with me. When she gets home I get very angry with her and show her this stuff. She then assured me, there is no shenanigans going on, and it's just the way she related to this dude. Even called it "business flirtation". The picture was taken at an earlier event some weeks back. 

She said she wasn't answering her phone because she didn't hear it in a loud place and that she only saw this dude up to about 9 or so, then went out with a girlfriend for drinks. She said she lost track of time and did not hear the phone ring.

Also, my wife actually HAD told me she was going out to network earlier in the week and indicated "If I remember correctly, this guy likes to drink". I also had met him briefly when my wife took me to one of his companies social events prior to this incident.

I think my worries were overblown. However, my wife does not think she did anything wrong and gets very annoyed at me if I ever bring this up. I say she did do something wrong, by letting a line get crossed than never should have been. I also worry "What did she do to give this guy an impression it was OK to act like that towards her" Is it just because she's beautiful, and dudes will be dudes? (this one is married with two kids). Is it ever the woman's fault when men go " a little too far". What do guys and girls think. Thanks.

pjb


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## notaname

No. You did not make too much of it. That is a lot of red flags.


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## bluesky

I think she is cheating on you and is minimizing and lying.


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## Ooogles

Cheating, not cool.


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## surfergirl

I think professional lines have been crossed by both of them most definately and I believe you are well within your rights to be upset (especially with the comments and responses about "violence of sex").

That is not cool and your wife needs to pull her head in.


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## Atholk

Pretty likely she was cheating.


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## pjbap

Thanks for the responses folks. I find it interesting what the overall conclusion is.

But things aren't always what they might seem. I do not think my wife was cheating. We have discussed this issue in councelling actually. I think the conclusion is, that my wife is a bit of an attention getter, who has trouble "blowing people off". She has developed a mild professional relationship with this dude and from my request "set the record straight" (at least that's what she told me).

My problem here is that it seemed my wife was promoting advances. She says no, and that I am drawing conclusions based on one element, and that I don't "know" the other interactions.

Our therapist told me "I can't blame her for being beautiful" and that dudes will be dudes", but I still have a gnawing fear that something in the interaction made the guy feel it was "OK" to act like that in her direction. Therefore I ask the question, is it ever the woman's "fault" when men do just that.m Wouldn't mind both female and male perspectives. Thanks.

pjb.


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## bluesky

This interaction, among others is 100% your wife's fault.
It has NOTHING to do with how men behave (we all behave differently).

If a man flirts with her, it is up to her to exercise appropriate boundaries.
Your therapist sounds like a clown.


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## Ooogles

I can't help it that I'm beautiful either. Men always want to put their hands on my thighs... except I don't let them. 

Is your therapist a man?


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## pjbap

Therapist is a woman.

My wife indicated that the picture was taken sort of spontaneously (part of the dude's business ventures is photography as well), and that she did not know the hand was on the thigh, and really took the picture to point it out. It was however sent out to her as "a gift for you".


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## Ooogles

How about I take a picture of you lightly putting your man hand on my thigh?


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## pjbap

Wanted to add another anecdote. To me I have an issue not necessarily with my wife's "actions" (Don't think she's cheating), but with inappropriate communications.

Our office network was acting up. I went over to my wife's laptop to see if her wireless setup was operating. Her email inbox was up. First thing that catches my eye is an email titled "It doesn't look like you, but....". Due to the "hand on the thigh deal" I thought maybe that particular dude (described above) was up to no good again. I decided to open the email as my network test.

The mail contained a photo of a look-a-like to my wife dressed in bondage. Hands tied, ankles tied, mouth gagged, slinky lingerie. The caption reads "Redhead, check, butt, check, Nice boobs, hehe".

This email was sent by an ex boyfriend of my wife's. We've been together for 16 years, so this would be as far back as 17-18 years. This same ex asked my wife for "a last hurrah" during our engagement period, so obviously his name has a negative connotation with me. I have never known of a real continuing friendship of this guy and my wife.

I obviously had to look further. This ex also cropped a photo from my wife's Facebook page, labeled it "Yum" and emailed it to my wife. He also was sending my wife links to woman's apparel stores (Boots, skirts, etc.) as was dressing my wife on-line. My wife drew no lines and in some ways seemed to even feed into it.

This discovery devastated me. My wife doesn't think anything was really wrong here and seemed to be more concerned I was on her laptop. She says "This guy is an old friend and he's just being his quirky weird self, and it shouldn't be any of my business. She says, he's just an old friend and she has no interest in him this way. She also thinks it is quite appropriate for her to remain friends with him and really doesn't seem to think there is anything off with her behavior. (She has since sent him a note indicating all was inappropriate on my request. At least that's what she tells me.

What do woman and men alike think of this one.


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## Ooogles

I think it's perfectly fine...

to keep

your blinders on

if you want to.


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## pjbap

Ooogles, can you elaborate on what you just wrote?


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## Ooogles

Sure. After you first answer the question I asked you.


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## pjbap

Wouldn't be much respectful towads my wife, would it?


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## Ooogles

That's right. How do you think she would feel to stumble on something like that, you touching another pretty woman's thigh, even casually?


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## Powerbane

pjbap said:


> Wouldn't be much respectful towads my wife, would it?


I think Oogles is right. 

She's not showing you much respect by not telling you about this. It might be innocent but then again are you willing to chance it?

She's got weak boundaries and you put up with it. Investigate some more my friend. I fear you have only scratched the surface. 

By the way - she's concerned about you being on her laptop because there is something more to hide. 

Head over to www.marriagebuilders.com and www.Affaircare.com for further guidance.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pjbap

I don't think my wife is physically cheating on me, as I know her morals quite well. I'm not convinced though that she's out for maybe some emotional cheating, which is just as hurtful.

My wife has acknowledged that she did not draw the lines appropriately, but still gets very annoyed when I continually bring up these instances (because they still scare me). She keeps saying "I'm done, it's done). I therefore don't think I'm getting the "empathy" needed. Nor her complete understanding of how it all looks.

These instances have put a tremendous kink in our marriage. Due to the occurences, I started to get scared and susipicious and started to inquire more about my wife's activities. This in turn has annoyed her, where she said it feels like I'm trying to control her. Her communications then started to get "sketchy", where certain details seemed to be missing. She says because she is afraid I'd make more of things and didn't want to have arguments. All has made me even more suspicious which has led to a viscious circle of me probing and my wife feeling "controlled, or parented". My wife even actually did lie to me regarding a particular outing of who she was with, which in turn has my gut further worried. She still says, there is no cheating, physical or emotional, and is sick of me even considering it.


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## Powerbane

Stop asking. 

Investigate for yourself. If details are getting sketchy then there is some element of untruth or non-disclosure going on too. 

Have you put a keylogger on all the computers and also checked your phone records for large amounts of texts or calls? 

I think you know in your gut something is amiss. Act on it!

Stop asking her for anything. Drop it but investigate for yourself. 

Trust but verify!

Even if it's not a physical affair, it's still probably bordering on emotional. What are you doing to fill her emotional needs and love tank?

To keep the anxiety level down I would suggest exercise. Hard exercise. This will calm you. 

Have you been to the 2 sites yet?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bluesky

I know her morals quite well.

You do?
Are these desirable morals?
Your wife was encouraging a sexually charged interaction with an ex. 
This is FAR from innocent.

You need to investigate this.
If she thinks this is nothing....that is BECAUSE what you KNOW is small compared to the reality.
Otherwise, she would not be behaving this way.

Let me repeat....
She is minimizing this BECAUSE what you know is SMALL relative to the reality.

INVESTIGATE INVESTIGATE! 
Do it in stealth mode.


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## bluesky

Oh, and before you discard some of the advise here.....remember..

MOST OF US HAVE BEEN THROUGH THE SAME THING.

I have seen the lies and minimization of HUNDREDS of affairs.


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## Powerbane

Totally agree with bluesky!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## seeking sanity

pjbap - Every betrayed spouse on this board has gone through a period of elaborate rationalization to create plausible alternatives to what is obvious to outsiders. We've all convinced ourselves that our spouse is different, she/he wouldn't lie or cheat, our love is special, people always say we were meant to be together...

You are no different in that regard.

Now, none of us know if she's cheating or not. But the consensus is that her explanation is dodgy. 

- What friend did she go for drinks with?
- Where did they go?
- What drinks did they order?
- What was her friend wearing?
- When did they plan to meet there?
- How did they talk if it was so loud she couldn't hear her cell?
- Why was she meeting this dude in first place? What business do they have together?

etc...

Something is going on, and it isn't good for you. This information is probably a big shock and hard to cope with, but it is way better for you to get in front of this then put your head in the sand.


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## pjbap

<<What are you doing to fill her emotional needs and love tank?>>

Good question. During the beginning of 2010, I had been very stressed at work, and started to become disengaged around the family. Then in March, my wife and I had a huge blowout argument during a date night regarding a financial discussion, a topic where we typically don't discuss productively or civilly. During this argument I called her the "C Word", which to this day I truly regret.

We still seemed to get past that at the time, and started to go to couples counselling to help us better deal with difficult conversations like this. We discussed that March incident.

During the subsequent summer months, we were getting along quite well actually. Our "activities" even stepped up to more than what they were typcially. It was when I discovered the "hand on the thigh" thing in the fall, things started to go downhill for us with frequent arguments.

Our therapist indicated to maybe my wife needs more attention at home. I tried to give it, and it back fired on me, as my wife thought I was pushing on her. She now harps on the "C-Word" instance whenver I bring up any of this stuff. I ask her for her forgiveness but I feel she acts as though she doesn't want to forgive me, but meanwhile, we had some very good moments even after the incidence in March.


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## bluesky

Of course she keeps bringing it up, she is cheating on you.


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## bluesky

Although using the C word is not good.

I think MOST woman NOT having an affair would forgive it considering....

You were VERY stressed
You apologized profusely
You went to counseling and discussed it
It was a year ago

She is USING this to justify her guilt.


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## pjbap

My wife claims "We have had an intersection of two insecurities". Me feeling my wife may be up to no good, thus prompting me to inquire more than usual about her activities, and even snoop a little, and her insecurity in not wanting a husband to pry into her daily activities, because it feels like I am being a controlling parent, not her husband. 

BTW, my wife, after 14 years of marriage has now password protected her laptop and Blackberry. She says she did this "out of principle" because I have no right to snoop on her stuff. She claims this is her insecurity, that now her husband wants to control her or treat her like a child. This is not the case. I've trusted my wife for 14 years. I just don't want my wife having "sexual like" interactions with dudes and I"ve gotten very nervous after discovering what I did. When I snooped I did so for a reason, the first ever, because there has never been any reason not to trust her. She, however, is very very annoyed that I did snoop, even just a little.


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## bluesky

Why would she be annoyed if she has nothing to hide?

You have a reason to check, she has broke boundaries.

Now you have MORE reason to check.

Do so in stealth.
Trust me on this one buddy.


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## pjbap

Blue Sky, my wife initially said she has nothing to hide. But yeah, then she goes and password protects. Tome that does say she has something to hide, something I'm not sure she understands. Because if you have nothing to hide, then why password protect? All very logical to you and me.

Again, she says it is a matter of principle, and that me snooping is being controlling or parenting and that she should be able to have her privacy (you know, private conversations with the girlfriends of which I should not be privvy to).

What she also doesn't seem to understand or forigive is why I snooped to begin with. I don't think she gets it. This was the first time in 14 years because my gut told me something. I wish she would understand how everything really looks.

I really don't think she's cheating. I just wish she could see why I would think that was a possibiltiy as that element is a huge explanation of my own behaviour that has annoyed her for several months.


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## Powerbane

If she's not cheating then she should be transparent. 

Get yourself together and investigate. If you still have access to the computer then put a keylogger on it asap. I would goes as far as a PI. 

Just to see what she is up to at the networking events. 

You're invading her secrecy and she's squirming at what you will find out. A marriage has no place for secrecy. And just what is she talking with girlfriends that she cannot tell you???

It's all a plot to keep you off the trail. At this point I would say you have a cheat and a liar on your hands. 

Good luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Kobo

pjbap said:


> Blue Sky, my wife initially said she has nothing to hide. But yeah, then she goes and password protects. Tome that does say she has something to hide, something I'm not sure she understands. Because if you have nothing to hide, then why password protect? All very logical to you and me.
> 
> Again, she says it is a matter of principle, and that me snooping is being controlling or parenting and that she should be able to have her privacy (you know, private conversations with the girlfriends of which I should not be privvy to).
> 
> What she also doesn't seem to understand or forigive is why I snooped to begin with. I don't think she gets it. This was the first time in 14 years because my gut told me something. I wish she would understand how everything really looks.
> 
> I really don't think she's cheating. I just wish she could see why I would think that was a possibiltiy as that element is a huge explanation of my own behaviour that has annoyed her for several months.




No one ever thinks there spouse is cheating. What conversation with her girlfriends is so private that her husband shouldn't know? I would back off and become more alert.


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## bluesky

I didn't think mine was cheating, and I had FAR fewer red flags.

DON'T LET HER BULL**** YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stand up to her man!

If she is going to talk about PRICIPLES, let her know that HER principles are ****ed up! 

Of course you are behaving like this. You are NOT being a daddy or controlling. She is BLAMESHIFTING.

After a situation like this, the CORNERSTONE of recovery is TRANSPARENCY. I am giving you a crash course on infidelity.

If she wants PRIVACY, it's because she is hiding something.

Listen to me here friend.
Her behavior is 100% consistent with someone having an affair.


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## Tool

If I were you, I would not have said a thing.. I would have waited till I could get real proof..


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## bluesky

Oh...and you will NEVER get the truth by asking or confronting.
You must discover this yourself.


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## pjbap

We have a couples therapy session on Monday with a LCSW. Any advice how to proceed, or what to discuss?


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## Powerbane

Talk about privacy as opposed to secrecy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MrK

pjbap said:


> My wife claims "We have had an intersection of two insecurities". Me feeling my wife may be up to no good, thus prompting me to inquire more than usual about her activities, and even snoop a little, and her insecurity in not wanting a husband to pry into her daily activities, because it feels like I am being a controlling parent, not her husband.



For the record, I count only one insecurity here: Yours. Her "insecurity" is using yours an excuse for secrecy. She didn't cop to ANYTHING here, just blamed you more.


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## pjbap

Let me throw this out there. Our therapist had indicated to me that my wife really craves attention.

Many will say "yeah, definitely cheating". What about the possibility that my wife, who is extremely sociable and friendly was just trying to be friendly a little too much to garner some attention without really "knowing" about these lines that us guys talk about? The word "Naivitee" did come up in counselling, or my wife is "just trying to be cool". These are the reasons for "not drawing the lines", and not cheating. What do you think of that explanation? Plausible?

Let me add that my wife was not always beautiful. She considered herself a "fat 12 year old", who had weight problems going into adolescence. She's now 40 and gorgeous. Could the "attention thing" be a part of all that?


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## seeking sanity

pjbap - There is a concept called gaslighting, which is when one spouse makes the other one out to be "crazy" as a way to avoid detection. I'd suggest that is what is going on here. 

I would refuse to go to couples counselling until you get the truth. It's pointless. She's not going to come clean until the consequence of not coming clean is greater than the benefit of hiding. I would then suggest that you ask her to pack her things and leave the house unless you start getting some honest answers. This is all text book infidelity stuff.

I know it sounds harsh, but the pattern you describe is common and it gets much worse before it gets better for you. Taking a stand is much better in the long run then somehow trying to be a more attractive option. You can't win in direct comparison because the new guy is exciting and you are not.

Alternatively, you aggressive start a 180. Info here:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000476;p=0


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## pjbap

Please let me add that my wife actually introduced me to this dude at one of his events that we both attended. Let me also add that part of his businesses is photography, which he promotes during his events. My wife has also told me she had a phone conversation regarding "the sexual stuff" with him a said she told him that she's not interested in continuing any innuendos of sorts. She also wrote her ex a note telling him that their banter was inappropriate. However, she did not show me the note and actually refused to do so because she said "That just seems a little too parenting".


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## Powerbane

And have you talked or emailed each of these guys specifically and verified?

I thnk she's gaslighting you!

Gaslighting is diverting your attention and twisting the truth. You're not being a parent or controlling. Ask her how she would feel if she had found similar email content with a hot chick or old girlfriend?

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bluesky

Mine introduced me to the OM also.
I actually shook his hand....not knowing what was going on.
She ****ed him before and after that introduction.
I think they get a sick power trip from that.


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## bluesky

"My wife has also told me she had a phone conversation regarding "the sexual stuff" with him a said she told him that she's not interested in continuing any innuendos of sorts."

I suppose this was AFTER the following quote from your wife.

"Wow, that is too funny. We are such prudes in this country. If you're ever in England check out some of that stuff there. "Thanks for sharing".

The dude then writes back, "If I haven't yet told you about my thoughts on violence of sex, let's chat.

My wife says "Will you have time, I hope so".

The guy says "yes".

She says "See you tonight".


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## the guy

Parenting,WTF, if she'd stop acting like a teen and more like a wife you won't need to parent. 
After the crap you just went through she should open every single door and be pround to let you in. Instead she puts up more walls.

Granted she sound like shes trying but. 

Keep an eye out and hopefully you can trust your best friend again. At the very least you can confirm that your W is no longer being decietful.


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## pjbap

bluesky said:


> "My wife has also told me she had a phone conversation regarding "the sexual stuff" with him a said she told him that she's not interested in continuing any innuendos of sorts."
> 
> I suppose this was AFTER the following quote from your wife.
> 
> "Wow, that is too funny. We are such prudes in this country. If you're ever in England check out some of that stuff there. "Thanks for sharing".
> 
> The dude then writes back, "If I haven't yet told you about my thoughts on violence of sex, let's chat.
> 
> My wife says "Will you have time, I hope so".
> 
> The guy says "yes".
> 
> She says "See you tonight".


Let me clarify that the quote was violence or sex, not violence of sex. Earlier typo. Not that is should matter


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## the guy

I usually hang out in the "coping with infidelity" forum, but once in a while I come here to read all the post about guys finding there wifes with their preverbial pants down and still believe there faithful.

Its not long before they listen and get the proof they need to confront the issue with real and hard evidence and soon start posting in the "coping with infidelity" forum.

However I do remember one and only one guy that investigated his W suspicious behavior and low and behold was not cheating.


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## pjbap

I have to say it is still a very strong possibility my wife has not been cheating. We were seeing one therpist, that I do not think was working for "us". We started to see another male therapist recently. We have an appointment on Monday.

My wife's demenor the day she came home from that networking event was very loving. She kissed and hugged me and suggested my actions were very sweet. She then got on my case once I started yelling a bit about things. She also had nothing password protected at this time. If she was having a fling wouldn't she have done that earlier? Also, why would she introduce the guy to me? Also, when she introduced me, later at the event, I think she showed me the picture of the two of them. I did not notice the hand on the thigh at that moment.

This dude is also married with a few kids (not that this matters)
We also have two young kids. I don't see the time where my wife would have to cheat. I do however, see her reactions to me when she feels I'm "parenting". Our therapist said she has a huge issue with that due to her childhood relationships with her father. Therefore, snooping seems very offensive to her. 

She must realize why the snoops occured and that her behaviour helped promote it. If she can't give me that empathy.....


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## pjbap

My wife has also ALWAYS shown disgust for adulterers. I have always thought that to be a part of her moral fabric. She has lovingly warned me regarding such and how if I did, she would leave me. I just don't think she would. Flirt, to maybe get some jollies from subseuent pursuits, maybe yes. That in itself worries and offends me....


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## pjbap

One other thing to add (sorry). The day I met the guy, a photo op arose for ME to take a picture of the two of them. I took it. It was almost a similar pose, but no hand on any thigh. I took a damn photo of the two of them. Again, the dude dabbles with photography at his events.

Again, my main concern here is not so much that my wife cheated with this guy, but more so how she did nothing to draw the appropriate boundaries.


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## the guy

Ok lets adress that.. flirting. Why to we flirt, to get jollie, why to we get jollie, b/c they feel good. So your W likes to feel good with other guys.. nice friend you have, Sorry your best friend, lover and wife needs to to get her jollies by flirting with OM.

Can any one say boundries?

Dude you "think" this and you "thought" that, snooping is wrong blah blah blah.

I have so been there man, alls it takes is quitely investigate the small posibility that you are being decieved.

There is a good chance that you are nibbing something in the bud before it heads really south on you.

I quess I wouldn't be so concerned if you didn't sound so much like me 13 years ago and your W didn't behave so much llike mine so many years ago.

In fact my marraige was so unhealthy, I kind of enjoyed my W when she came home from the OM. Her disposition and demeaner was pleasent and just all happy that she got her fix. 
Basicly my wife can get real b*tchy when shes not getting the attention and sex that she needs. I was treated great when she got home, as long as I didnt accuse her of sleeping around,and she didn't need anything from me. Nice marriage hu... 

Im glad I confronted the issue we had...we both did and things are much healthier.

PJ, you know whats best... you are living it, I'm just the guy thats been down a familar road.


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## pjbap

So flirtation towards other men, even if it is harmless fliratation, should be considered a no no? I don't like it, I'll tell you that, but is it really that bad of a thing for a wife to do?


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## Powerbane

That is what The Guy is saying! Go search his posts here. He's not kidding.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

pjbap said:


> So flirtation towards other men, even if it is harmless fliratation, should be considered a no no? I don't like it, I'll tell you that, but is it really that bad of a thing for a wife to do?


pjbap,

My wife is flirtatious. It's part of what makes her fun.

MEM talks openly of "high-spirited" women. Many of us would settle for nothing less.

However, there's a problem at your house.

You - as a husband - started to ask legit questions. Rather than confront them head-on and take steps to make sure your relationship is intact, she's on lock down and telling you to eat shix.

If you don't want to see this, it's your choice.

But, I'm not going to bother with any "man-up" sermons until - and if - you decide to stand up for yourself.


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## Atholk

Too much yapping, not enough facts. You have to put her undersurvillence because she is lying to you and covering up something.

Pjbap - I really don't mean to be rude, but I've been on this board for 1.5 years now and I've seen the sort of thing you are describing nearly every single day on this board and the wife 99% of the time turns out to be cheating.

I'm just asking you to do some spying on her. If nothing turns up then great, if you uncover cheating then you can take some steps to address things. People having affairs will lie their ass off and have no conscience about betraying their spouse.

Until the affair is over, the good woman you knew is gone.


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## Conrad

I have to tell you. The idea that another man would feel comfortable enough to put his hand on my wife's thigh and have a picture taken?

This isn't about "control" whatsoever.

It's about what's right.


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## the guy

Hum, yes when flirting turns to a bondage picture, there is a problem.

See, being charming and socialable in my opinion will never never lead to a bondage picture.

But flirting on the other hand always leads to lines being crossed and in this case a big fat line was crossed and it isn't getting any better when walls are put up on her end.

In my opinion once a bondage picture and flirting are used in the same topic of discusion and it dosn't involve the spouses the marraige has a proplem. It can be repaired, she just needs to except the "parenting" .. I mean except the fact that some one cares about the way she is behaving and worries about there well being ( and being decieved).
I quess if you want to call that parenting maybe I should have done my wife some parenting some time ago.


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## bluesky

Pull your head out of your ass, stop defending her, and have her investigated.

Hire a PI.


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## surfergirl

pjbab....maybe your wife is not cheating at the moment and maybe she never will - who knows. 

The thing is, all of this is affecting you negatively and with that knowledge alone she should be trying to do what she can to relieve that. Not making it worse by becoming defensive and blocking you out. Bring that up when you see the councellor....mention how she has now password protected her laptop etc. and how that makes you feel.

See to me the issue here isn't whether she is cheating or not - it's that her behaviour is making you unhappy and uncomfortable. Flirting is harmless (as they say)....and I guess in it's most basic form it is - a smile here, a bit of a giggle there and we all move on. 

What your wife is doing now is not flirting....it's encouraging - she's going beyond flirting and she needs to stop it.


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## the guy

sg,
I may be wrong but a giggle her and a smile there seems more like beeing charming then flirting.
When one flirts are they not expecting something in return. When I flirt with danger I expect a thrill. When one flirts with romance, are they looking for love. 
Complimenting someone is fine and dandy, and border lines flirting, but I think sending some one a bondage picture it is... in my opinion flirting with lust, and there by expecting sex, or at the very least pursuing the posibilty of sex.

If the OM is promoting his photography skills a clothed untied woman would be just as good as a tied up women in underwear?


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## surfergirl

the guy said:


> sg,
> I may be wrong but a giggle her and a smile there seems more like beeing charming then flirting.


the guy....looks we both have our own perceptions of the two words


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## the guy

sg-I'm good with that.. b/c we both have an aggrement with the word "encouraging"
pj- with regards to perception, I perseve the notion that your wifes boundries will lead to her cheating.


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## pjbap

I will throw this out there one more time.

My wife is a flirty woman anyways Our therapist and my wife indicated to me that maybe she does not know really how beautiful she is due to the fact she was a chubby unattractive child/adolescent and still has that image/insecurity in her head (She's now 40 and has been attractive since early 20s). Could the hand on the thigh, followed up by the racy video, followed up by a "yeah, let's chat" stuff be only her efforts to be cool, and maybe she didn't notice the guy was sending her innuendos because of siomple naivitee, and not be related to desires to cheat? My wife does try very hard to "get along" with people. 

Regarding the ex-boyfriend thing (This one kills me more): Could my wife, again be just overly trying to appease someone she considers her friend due to a tremendous desire "to be liked"?


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## seeking sanity

pjbap - Sure those are all plausible explanations. However, those are questions only she can answer through some honest self-reflection. In trying to answer them, you are engaging in rationalization, which in this case is a form of denial of the problem. The reality is that she is doing things that make you uncomfortable (at best) or is violating the maritial agreement (at worst). Unless you can get to a point in the relationship where she wants to look at herself and be honest, you are going to be unhappy. In most cases you create the environment by making some radical change in the relationship dynamic - do a 180 or separate, and go about remaking yourself physically and mentally.


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## Powerbane

No. Attention should be on you not an EX!!!

Are you giving her the attention she needs?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bluesky

Could the hand on the thigh, followed up by the racy video, followed up by a "yeah, let's chat" stuff be only her efforts to be cool, and maybe she didn't notice the guy was sending her innuendos because of siomple naivitee, and not be related to desires to cheat? My wife does try very hard to "get along" with people. 

*Now you are REALLY reaching. I would take a cheater over a woman that is that moronic. You really think you are her daddy?
She is not stupid my man.*

Regarding the ex-boyfriend thing (This one kills me more): Could my wife, again be just overly trying to appease someone she considers her friend due to a tremendous desire "to be liked"?

*We all want to be liked. No doubt, low self esteem is common among cheaters.*


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## pjbap

Powerbane said:


> No. Attention should be on you not an EX!!!
> 
> Are you giving her the attention she needs?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Powerbane to clarify. In this particular case, she gave no such attention to the ex. The ex gave attention towards her, which she accepted, without drawing a line (until after I got after her). Now I don't know about other past interactions.

We had some issues in 2010, no doubt. There was nothing wrong sexually, as my libido has always been higher than hers. But there were probable emotional problems.


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## pjbap

seeking sanity said:


> pjbap - Sure those are all plausible explanations. However, those are questions only she can answer through some honest self-reflection. In trying to answer them, you are engaging in rationalization, which in this case is a form of denial of the problem. The reality is that she is doing things that make you uncomfortable (at best) or is violating the maritial agreement (at worst). Unless you can get to a point in the relationship where she wants to look at herself and be honest, you are going to be unhappy. In most cases you create the environment by making some radical change in the relationship dynamic - do a 180 or separate, and go about remaking yourself physically and mentally.


Seeking Sanity: When I brought this stuff up to my wife she yelled to me "You knew I was a flirt when you married me". She's right. Actually we met due to her flirtatious ways. But you are right, this type of stuff is not what I had bargained for. Hands on thighs, blatant sexual innuendos being passed, boyfriends blatantly being sexual in her direction. My wife's flirty ways in some ways is what makes her fun and liked. But this....I have a problem with it.

Flirtation does not necessarily have to be sexual. There are articles out there about friendly/harmless flirtation. I think it's possible my wife didn't differentiate the two here.

I asked my wife whether this is something I just discovered about her after 14 years, or are these situations unique. She says the latter.


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## seeking sanity

Let's tackle this a different way:

How can the people on this board best help you?


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## pjbap

seeking sanity said:


> Let's tackle this a different way:
> 
> How can the people on this board best help you?


Well, SS, a lot of you have helped me already. And that is showing me that I am not crazy for feeling insecure, and there is a good legitimate reason to feel this way.

You see, my wife has gotten really frustrated at me when I let my insecurities out on my sleeve. She has always said that I had made too much out of these instances. But due to another flirt that I had discovered (not even mentioned) all keeps haunting me, and has me feeling, is my wife "out" to find new men, either physically or emotionally. Everything from the flirts to the non-transparent communications has had my gut in a knot.

I see from reading here, that with everything considered, every Tom, ****, and Harry (As well as Mary and Sally) would think there is a strong possibility there is shenanigans going on. I can be an insecure individual at times, and I had started to doubt myself that my gut here has been purely based on overblown insecurities. But from what I see on this board, that is not the case. This stuff is just plain too weird. Everybody sees it.

I'll confess, I had my wife read this thread. She just rolled her eyes. She said "None of these people know me, you, or us, and none knows everything that was part of these circumstances". Maybe that is true, but I hope she can certainly see that when everything is considered, how it might make a significant other feel.. and might even prompt him to snoop, which my wife has blasted me for, even despite I only intentionally snooped on her once in 14 years of marriage.

To be honest, I really wish some people could have said "It may not be as bad as it might look", as my wife preaches, but everybody senses that same lousy gut feeling that I have been suffering. That does sort of suck.


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## Powerbane

Ok - fair enough. Is she still keeping passwords from you?

I wish you well and no - we don't know you or your wife or the exact circumstances. 

But I think you still have an issue with how you're feeling and to top it off you're still seeking acceptance and validation from your wife. As a man, I think that is making you look weak in her eyes. I could be wrong and I pray that I am. 

I still think something is going on. - Now is she going to stop these other jerks in their tracks the next time or will you have to find out later???? I'll bet she gets better at hiding this because at some level she likes the attention and it gives her a thrill that you ain't giving her.


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## seeking sanity

I'm going to suggest a different tact: Perhaps its time you started working on yourself. There are a number of manning up and nice guy threads on this site, which may be applicable to you.

Obviously this has stirred up some insecurities which, it seems, your wife finds extremely unattractive. You're not going to get her attention by communicating insecurity. She'll just think you are a wimp, though she probably won't say it directly.


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## sunnez

It is complete bad behavior... Yikes !!!


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## ladybug828

Okay I am a woman and the way I see it is she has told you about the guy and how he is. She didn't password protect her computer and she told you where she was going. In past experience if she tells you in advance about things then no worries. 

question for you~ are you a jealous man? Or is the jealousy coming from that you are in counseling? Do you or did you at ther time have M issues and that is why you were/are seeing a therapist?

In my situation, My H is very jealous of me and sometimes to possesive, but what i have come to learn is that he was having internet affairs with past GF's and would hide things from me. I believe he never cheated. But I think Guilt is where it stemed from. Do you have guilt about anything that you are doing or not doing? Is there something she needs that has been red flags to you in your relationship. Over the years people change and so does the wants. Spice it up a bit do something different and out of the box for her. Not necessarily buy her something but do something for her.


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## Ronin

In 3 months, maybe 6 months.. maybe a year. Your posts are going to be of a different variety. The "found out my wife cheated and how do i win her back" variety. Anytime a woman has that sort of contact and conversation with another man, you need to check that behavior at the door. 

I HAVE NEVER EVER EVER seen a woman who was respectful and honest respond in the manner she responded. EVERY cheating lowlife scumbag woman I have ever known reacted the EXACT way you said your wife did when they were "caught" having improper contact with other men. Get ready for the EA/PA if it isn't already happening. Imagine you meet some hot younger woman and you and her become friends. One day your wife finds out about it and she confronts you and you respond "you knew i liked hot young women when you met me" See how well that goes over. 

Stop advocating her behavior and find your testicles. Some random guy is touching your wife's thigh and sending her blatantly sexual messages, and you're here giving her excuses (oh shes just trying to be cool). Grow a brain or some balls, preferably both, before you're here whining about her having an affair (and it may already be too late). She has the audacity to not even deny or defend it, she actually basically told you "yeah, i did it, and you knew i was like this when you married me" and you accepted it. Now she knows you're a coward, and she respects you even less. What do you think shes going to do now? Let me tell you, shes going to go to the other guy, tell him how you confronted her, and then posted on a website about it to a bunch of strangers, then showed her, and they're both going to laugh at you all night over drinks and romantic dinner, while he practices his pickup moves on her, and she mulls over whether or not shes going to sleep with him, or just give him oral sex in the car outside. 

Don't be one of those guys who had advance notice and didn't sack up and check that ridiculous behavior at the door. It's probably already too late since you have done everything completely beta up to this point. I can't imagine confronting a woman about another man's hand on her thigh and all she can respond with is "you knew I was a flirt when you met me" She **** tested you and you failed. Now she feels vindicated in her behavior because you showed her you're a beta coward. If you had said "You may have been a flirt, but men placing their hands on your legs and having random online relationships wasn't what I signed up for. You'll hear from my attorney regarding the signing of the divorce papers on Monday morning" I bet you her reaction would have been different. Something along the lines of "I'm sorry, ill block him and i wont speak to him anymore, can we talk about it"

Ronin


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## Ronin

ladybug828 said:


> Okay I am a woman and the way I see it is she has told you about the guy and how he is. She didn't password protect her computer and she told you where she was going. In past experience if she tells you in advance about things then no worries.
> 
> question for you~ are you a jealous man? Or is the jealousy coming from that you are in counseling? Do you or did you at ther time have M issues and that is why you were/are seeing a therapist?
> 
> In my situation, My H is very jealous of me and sometimes to possesive, but what i have come to learn is that he was having internet affairs with past GF's and would hide things from me. I believe he never cheated. But I think Guilt is where it stemed from. Do you have guilt about anything that you are doing or not doing? Is there something she needs that has been red flags to you in your relationship. Over the years people change and so does the wants. Spice it up a bit do something different and out of the box for her. Not necessarily buy her something but do something for her.


Sorry Ladybug, but its not about "not hiding it" or "not password protecting the computer". Maybe ill rob a bank, but not wear a mask. Is it ok then? Shes engaged in behavior disrespectful to the marriage, and whether shes open about it or not, if the husband is uncomfortable with it (any man should and would be) then she needs to curb it. If she values her friendship with other men over her husband then move out and move on. 

Gentlemen, DO NOT EVER (under most circumstances) take a woman's advice about a woman's behavior. You just witnessed a woman condone blatantly red flag behavior. You have been warned.

Notice how "jealousy" came up. When a woman flirts and is blatantly inappropriate with other men, you're just jealous. If another woman bumps into you on the street, and you turn to look, "you're an ******* pig scumbag for looking" Sounds about right. Ridiculous..

Ronin


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## sinnister

LOL Ronin.

I know where you're coming from but not sure ladybug828 was condoning bad behaviour. Just relating it to her own experience?


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## Ronin

So the woman is out participating (or not curbing) highly questionable and even downright ridiculous behavior and her advice was for him to "do something for her" Yeah, have her served with some beautiful divorce papers wrapped up in a bow. Let her eat her cake with the other men, but not have you (the cake) also. 

WHEN MEN DROP THESE WOMEN AT THE FIRST SIGN OF DISRESPECT AND DISLOYALTY THEY WILL STOP DOING IT. men condone this behavior through weak action. If a woman told me she was going out on a date with another man, I would irrevocably never speak to her again. Now all the women and beta's will chime up that "whats wrong with friends" and "why cant she go out?, its innocent" but real men (and women too, only the betas dont actually know this) know that as a man, if you asked a woman to go out with another woman and it wasnt work related or family (and even then they complain) you would be looked at is if you were a tiger shark walking through downtown NYC. So why is it that when they want to do it, almost invariably, its condoned and allowed and a majority of the time encouraged (albeit in secret) by their trashbag club friends. Gentlemen, it is time to take back your respect and stop this absurd dynamic between men and women, or divorce rates will continue to rise, and men will continue to get the short end of the stick in the deal. I love women like the next guy, but as soon as they...hold on... this is going to get ugly...

Cheat, lie, steal, are dishonest, trickle truths, talk up other men in your presence, bring up old lovers, compare you unfavorably to old boyfriends, add exes and new random men to facebook and have intimate conversations with them, show disloyalty, choose their best friends boyfriends aunt's ex gardener over you, demean your profession,goals, dreams, education, berate you in public, berate you in private, let me end this here because it will go on for days. 

If any of these things happen from a woman, release her back into the dating pool IMMEDIATELY. Do not ever speak to her again, just cut her off, ship her items properly back to her, and end the relationship. I can't speak for women because i dont date men, theyre own their own regarding relationships, but men I can speak for, and to men. Follow that advice and it will not let you down. When a woman knows she cannot date other men, while continuing to be with you, your world changes. Instantly the BS stops, and you can have a loving happy relationship with a respectful woman. If you allow any of the above behavior, they push it further because they no longer respect you for allowing them to do it. Fascinating creatures these modern women....

Women want to continue to portray that wholesome sweet girl image while perpetually cake eating their way through life. MEN... stop allowing it. Demand they be accountable and respectful, and if they dont, cut them loose. Don't let them build up a relationship with another man on your dime financially and emotionally. Cut them off and force their hand the same way they will eventually force yours by walking out and leaving you wondering what happened. 

Ronin


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## shaung

Dude, why haven't you confronted the guy? If I found a picture like that you can rest assured I would show up at his doorstep, ask to talk to him AND his wife together, and show them the picture of him with his hand on MY WIFE's thigh, with a copy of the inappropriate texts in hand and ask him to explain to us (me and his wife) WTF this is all about and why my wife started BLOCKING MY ACCESS to their conversations after being confronted. I would tell him in no uncertain terms that I believe he is trying to get into MY WIFEs panties and from this point on, this is between ME AND YOU and next time I wont be this cordial.

I would then tell my wife about the conversation, let her know the jig is up, the other wife knows, and if she doesn't like it, dont let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

Put your freeking foot down NOW. Be decisive and back up whatever you say with action.


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## Powerbane

Too late guys!

Pjbap has another thread out there. She's filed for divorce already.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ronin

EXACTLY. It was no big deal, now shes filing for divorce.


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## lordmayhem

I see that she HAS been cheating all along with this OM. All the red flags were there alright. It's not like its a surprise. AND she's unremorseful and unrepentant as well. Such blatant disrespect for the H, the mariage, and the family.


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