# Love for the AP vs love for your BS



## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Hey guys,
Most of you know me and CSS,one year in R and things are looking good after her four month EA with her old hs bf.
I was wondering if the love a WS felt for their AP is the same thing they feel for their spouse they are R'ing with.Is it "real" with your spouse? Better? Was the "love" the WS felt for the AP all fantasy?
Early in our R my wife told the POSOM that she loved him and said she ment it,now she says it was all about the attention she received and the cheap compliments.
She knows the OM never cared,he through her right under the bus when I exposed.
So,any thoughts guys? WS and BS what do you all think?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I meant it when I said it because I didn't think. What I mean is I didn't care about his well being as I always have Calvin. It was a selfish type of thing..I wanted attention from the posom. It wasn't real, it was fantasyland. Yes the passion in my marriage was gone but that does not mean I stopped loving Calvin. I just was looking for that feeling I guess, I have passion back for Calvin now but I also know it takes work to keep our marriage alive I'll talk more about it later, time to clean house.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Hey! Youre not allowed to post on this thread!

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

It IS possible that a wayward spouse actually loved their affair partner, but you have to look at the circumstances.

The wayward spouse and affair partner never had to sit down and deal with the family finances, never had to deal with issues at the kids' school, never had to deal with kids together, never had to deal with most issues that two spouses need to deal with on a daily basis.

They saw each other in the rarefied air of the affair... both being on their best behavior with no daily issues. Who wouldn't fall in love in those situations???


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

My two cents: Affairs are fantasy. The WS and the AP see each other on their terms only. Everything is golden. It's like being on a vacation. So any feelings of love during this illusion would be suspect. Google: Limerence

True love is lasting love - which is why you have been able to successfully R.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Definitely not the same. A "love" or feeling for OW/OM is much different and more "wanting" than for a spouse. 

There is such a thing called limerance. It can happen to both single/married people. What is means is someone is in love or 
obsessed" with something in a particular way. Now that doesn't necessarily mean that one is in "love" with someone but more appropriately explained as someone is obsessed or in "love" with the idea of being in love or just being with another person.

Our minds can naturally work against us as it is exciting to do new things, see new things, experience new things. Dopamine loves novelty, that saying will never get old (pun intended) no matter how many times I use it. A love for a spouse should be radical yet orderly and honest. If it is honest then a spouse must realize that they must rely on their spouse to sometimes get them "out of the fog".

Look up obsessive compulsive disorder. Do not let your thoughts or fantasies control you. Spouses must use their strengths and weaknesses to overcome themselves and their selfishness and remain steadfast to the truth, to reality that love is shown through actions, not words, fantasies, illusions, hurt, or deceit.


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## CleanJerkSnatch (Jul 18, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> My two cents: Affairs are fantasy. The WS and the AP see each other on their terms only. Everything is golden. It's like being on a vacation. So any feelings of love during this illusion would be suspect. Google: Limerence
> 
> True love is lasting love - which is why you have been able to successfully R.


Took the words right out of my mouth PJ!


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Chris Taylor said:


> It IS possible that a wayward spouse actually loved their affair partner, but you have to look at the circumstances.
> 
> The wayward spouse and affair partner never had to sit down and deal with the family finances, never had to deal with issues at the kids' school, never had to deal with kids together, never had to deal with most issues that two spouses need to deal with on a daily basis.
> 
> They saw each other in the rarefied air of the affair... both being on their best behavior with no daily issues. Who wouldn't fall in love in those situations???


^^^ A lot to this. I never realized the potential future problems w my AP until my W and I separated and I had the opportunity to be w OW 24/7 for a couple of weeks. 

It surely brought me back to earth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Here's an answer the best I can say it Calvin.......

My H didnt know her birthday.
He didnt know her middle name.
He didnt know her parents names.
he didnt know where she went to college for the first year.
He didnt know she'd had an abortion.
He didnt know she'd had other affairs.


IOW he didnt know HER at all. He knew the fantasy of HER. That is the hard part. NO ONE can live up to a fantasy. It sucks but it is what it is.

So did he love HER? NO but he loved the idea of HER. **** sandwich either way.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Every WS should picture their AP's in the morning - before the rush to work. With bed hair and morning breath. Sitting naked on the toilet pushing out a rancid morning constitutional while picking their toenails. Meanwhile your kids need breakfast and a lunch packed. Your AP, from the perch on the throne, says "you do it today, I'm busy.... " You sniff the air and remember: "Hey, did you pay the gas bill??"


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

*There is no versus!!. *

The butchering and misuse of the word "Love" sickens me.

What you describe and what a DS feels for an AP is not "Love". It's many things, and without a doubt involves a very strong emotional pull, but "Love" it is not.


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

Certain people cannot resist the rush and excitement of "puppy love".
And with technology and social networking, it is too easy to succumb to the temptation to send an "innocent" message. That gets the ball rolling.

But the mindset of a WS cannot distinguish between "puppy love/infatuation/limerence" and the lasting love of a long-term relationship.

It is a character flaw. Most people have the occasional infatuation, even when married. Most recognize it for what it is - fantasy and dismiss it. WS lack the ability to recognize it for what it is. It consumes them.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> My two cents: Affairs are fantasy. The WS and the AP see each other on their terms only. Everything is golden. It's like being on a vacation. So any feelings of love during this illusion would be suspect. Google: Limerence
> 
> True love is lasting love - which is why you have been able to successfully R.


Thanks cedar,thats what I'm knda thinking,my wife knows it never would of lasted,he was putting on a big front,now she knows what a lowlife he actually was
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> Every WS should picture their AP's in the morning - before the rush to work. With bed hair and morning breath. Sitting naked on the toilet pushing out a rancid morning constitutional while picking their toenails. Meanwhile your kids need breakfast and a lunch packed. Your AP, from the perch on the throne, says "you do it today, I'm busy.... " You sniff the air and remember: "Hey, did you pay the gas bill??"


What, What??? You mean the sunshine doesnt come out of his AP's ass????? Say it isnt so!:rofl:


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Love requires a willingness to protect, and provide for the other even to your own hurt. By that definition there is no love in an A.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Some great answers,actually putting my mind at ease here.
After I blew up the A,my wife couldnt believe all the lies from the POS.
Even little things he would lie about to make himself look better
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

When I look at my stbxw, I see a person who is in love with the feeling of falling in love. That's not "love" of a person - that's love of a feeling.

It's addictive and, being an addiction, it can be destructive. It's frustrating watching this - but it is out of my hands - there is no cure for an addiction like this until the addict wants to be cured.

On the one hand, I'm still concerned for my stbxw - because she's making bad choices and will end up hurt. I guess that means I'm still somewhat attached to her. But on the other hand, she's hurt me and she's hurt the kids. So I've passed the point of saying "to hell with her". It's a real shame though, because it IS a sickness and I promised for better or worse. But I've reached my limit.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

In my case, my old lady was using these guy as bandaids, when ever they got close enough to start telling their feels, she was gone.
There was one repeat offender she "liked" he was nice and very beta. That OM was one of the longer affair. (1st X 1month, the 2nd X 2 weeks)

Mrs. the-guy always know it wasn't real, keep it very far away from her first life. Her second life was all fantasy, its a shame other waywards don't have the same insight.

I feel she always had real love for me until I started hitting her, then she just got numb and found affection else were....some one to treat her sweet.

I was told, that the real love she has for me hurt so much, she wasn't about to let that happen to her again, so for the most part all her playtoys were just that something to distract her uhealthy marriage.

Totaly different sinerio, rare for this forum, but I figured I'd add to the mix.


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## Tony55 (Jun 8, 2012)

calvin said:


> I was wondering if the love a WS felt for their AP is the same thing they feel for their spouse they are R'ing with.Is it "real" with your spouse? Better? Was the "love" the WS felt for the AP all fantasy?


What the WS feels for the other person is like an emotional orgasm, it isn't sustainable and leaves you drained; no one can sustain those raw feelings for anyone indefinitely, it all has to level out, whether it's with you, or the other person... it all has to level out.

T


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

The Greeks have four (or five depending where you look) words for love: Agápe, Éros, Philia, and Storge.

I think we'd all be better to use words like these rather than 'love' when we talk about affair partners vs spouses. Because love is a fluid thing and it can change from hour to hour. We are all going to have different experiences with love, and therefore this question can only be answered for ourselves, not for others. No one can tell me whether my husband loved the women he interacted with or not, and whether he loved me while he was doing it. Only I can decide 1) if I care and 2) whether I think he did. Only he can decide whether he actually DID or not, and even then only for himself. He cannot decide whether *I* think he loved them or not.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> When I look at my stbxw, I see a person who is in love with the feeling of falling in love. That's not "love" of a person - that's love of a feeling.
> 
> It's addictive and, being an addiction, it can be destructive. It's frustrating watching this - but it is out of my hands - there is no cure for an addiction like this until the addict wants to be cured.
> 
> On the one hand, I'm still concerned for my stbxw - because she's making bad choices and will end up hurt. I guess that means I'm still somewhat attached to her. But on the other hand, she's hurt me and she's hurt the kids. So I've passed the point of saying "to hell with her". It's a real shame though, because it IS a sickness and I promised for better or worse. But I've reached my limit.


Very frustrating indeed,I knew there was someone else and I told her I was concerned for her safety,she didnt see it at the time but she would have gotten very hurt.
The OM cared about himself,that was all but tried like hell to make himself look like Gandi
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

calvin said:


> Very frustrating indeed,I knew there was someone else and I told her I was concerned for her safety,she didnt see it at the time but she would have gotten very hurt.
> The OM cared about himself,that was all but tried like hell to make himself look like Gandi
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


For me, I didn't catch it in time. Her PA was already over and we were in false R (with me being in the dark about the PA). 

But I think my stbxw is addicted to the feeling and wants desperately to recapture that feeling. She can't with me because I'm too "old and familiar" - like a comfortable pair of shoes. No challenge or rush there. So I was cast off while she dances away to oblivion in a new pair of stripper heels. When she comes back with blisters, I'm gonna pour some salt on the wounds. Yeah, that's a terrible thought but that's where we're at right now.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

A board I used to go on had a section for polyamourous relationships, and the people in that section would talk about that 'new relationship' feeling. The feeling you have when you are with someone brand new and everything is a 'first'. And how happy they were that they didn't have to be with just one person and never have that feeling again.

There is no other way to get that feeling other than with someone you have never been with before. And it's like a drug fix.


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## Loyal Lover (Jan 30, 2013)

I think any 'feelings' the WS may have for his or her AP are more about the wayward spouse him/herself than the actual affair partner.

They want passion and attention. They create it for themselves. They create a world where they can have that easier than they think they get it at home.

While it's not impossible for a WS to truly love an AP it is a very VERY unlikely scenario. Most of the attraction is based on idealism to begin with. That is why most relationships that started off as affairs don't last, even when the WS divorces the BS for the AP. When the lust fades it's hard to continue in a relationship that was based on lust and/or infatuation.

I think the 'love' WS feels towards their AP is similar to the type of 'love' you felt back in high school or middle school when you met 'the bad boy' or 'the girl all the bad guys want' or your first love. You THINK you have a special connection with the other person. You believe it and act as if you do. You almost MAKE yourself like the other person because you focus on superficial attributes. And you're too focused on them to see deeper. It's intense but it's not real. People are convinced it is while they go through it and they do things to 'prove it'. But they are just feeding their idealism. The perfect relationship they imagine. How much of a change that boy or girl will make in their life because he or she is so unconventional, life is going to be FUN now. *They care more about how the person makes them feel than they actually care about the person.* But what starts from ashes returns to ashes. Quick to ignite and quick to burn down.

As for how the WS feels about the BS... it depends. Sometimes the WS loves him or herself sooo much more. They aren't sorry. They would keep doing it if they could, not necessarily because they love the AP, but because they love the high of it. (Saying 'I love you' to an AP makes it all the more dramatic and intense, of course people tend to allow themselves to believe they love the person.)
But a lot of times, especially for a lot of the couples you see here that are getting through it, the WS did truly love his/her spouse. The WS's problems with him/herself just interfered with the marriage and while they do reflect other problems, they don't always reflect a lack of love.
The WS cares about the BS's general well being much more. And the WS will generally 'put up with' a lot more from the BS than with the AP. The WS chose his/her spouse with a rational mind, despite having lots of options. The WS usually picks the BS out of fear (dwindling options), not when he or she is at her best. And the WS and BS's relationship has history, motives, a foundation, numerous purposes, a meaning, and substance.

I'm happy to hear your R is going so well Calvin. It truly sounds like the love your wife has for you is the only real love she felt and it is definitely BETTER than any other love she may have thought she felt. Best wishes, I shall look for your future posts and expect to read up on things getting better and better.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Mrs. the guy was always open with the fact that she was still married. With that said she always found that still knowing that she was married and they wanted to sleep with her and have fun she could never really make a connection with them." I used them just as much as they used me" was what she told me.

Its odd but in this case was there a fog??? in some way I think so cuz of the way she hadled a bad marriage, but was she in a fantasy???? sure for about an hour, maybe two if he was any good.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

The thing is I remember when I first saw the POSOM and he asked me questions..
1. Are you married?..my answer ...yes
2. Are you happy? ..my answe...no
3. Do you love him? my answer...yes
Ok so then throughout my EA I talked about Calvin alot and one day a few weeks before D-day the Ex pos asked me "Do you still love him?" in a text and I said "yes I still love him" gosh it's not like I stopped loving Calvin I was as Loyal put it loving the idea that the idiot ex om supposedly loved me. I know that makes no sense but that's because it was never real love when it came to the ex om. It's just so irrational when people have affairs or EAs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

Love ya CSS but you do realize that to a BS- this sounds like such dribble, right? I believe you that this is exactly the way it happened and that is so incredibly absurd.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

lol honest to God that is what was said between us and yes it's so stupid but that's what I mean about it all being so insane ...now did I think I meant it when I told the Ex om that I loved him? Yes...uggg it hurts Calvin to the freakin core
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

And I believe loyal lover got it right with this: *They care more about how the person makes them feel than they actually care about the person.* 

This had to be true in my H's case and in yours CSS bc in reality you(and my H) didnt even really know these people. He loved the feeling she gave him. Anyone could have given it, he just decided she was special. I think primarily bc of proximity and availability. 

he too said he thought he "loved" her. How perposterous is that to say about someone when you dont even know their full name????


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> lol honest to God that is what was said between us and yes it's so stupid but that's what I mean about it all being so insane ...now did I think I meant it when I told the Ex om that I loved him? Yes...*uggg it hurts Calvin to the freakin core*_Posted via Mobile Device_


More than you can imagine. Ive had nightmares of just hearing him say that to me over and over and freaking over until I wake up yelling "NO MORE. PLease just stop!" It sucks. And even though Calvin and I both know the "love" wasnt real, we feel robbed of something that we once believed to be all ours. Its a lousy feeling.

vomit.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> lol honest to God that is what was said between us and yes it's so stupid but that's what I mean about it all being so insane ...now did I think I meant it when I told the Ex om that I loved him? Yes...uggg it hurts Calvin to the freakin core
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ugh...God
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## asia (Dec 3, 2012)

Maybe this is my problem because I know my husband was in love with her. Not the feeling of being in love but actually in love with his AP. Or maybe I just think he was.....who ever knows for sure?

This is what I do know for sure, if he was screwing another woman, he was NOT feeling love for me and our marriage. That I am quite sure of. When he was talking about divorcing me, he was serious. Would my husband throw our life together away for a fantasy? No, he's not that stupid. He would have only done it if he was serious. How do I know this? Because he never thought once about breaking up our marriage for those other sexual only affairs he had. Thankfully, they broke up and he's home but the fact that he even considered leaving lets me know he wasn't "loving" me during his affair.


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

I think talking about "love" and "adultery" is an oxymoron.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

calvin said:


> Hey guys,
> Most of you know me and CSS,one year in R and things are looking good after her four month EA with her old hs bf.
> I was wondering if the love a WS felt for their AP is the same thing they feel for their spouse they are R'ing with.Is it "real" with your spouse? Better? Was the "love" the WS felt for the AP all fantasy?
> Early in our R my wife told the POSOM that she loved him and said she ment it,now she says it was all about the attention she received and the cheap compliments.
> ...


Calvin, you have set me thinking.* I realise that I never loved my AP. So... why was I with her, risking my marriage, if I didn't love her*?

Phew... That's puzzled me.:scratchhead:


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

my wife told posom she loved him all the time. he told her the same.
did she really love him?
i dunno. i think maybe she just loved the fact that he wasnt me.
all i know is now, she realizes what a cokkamamie load of crap it all was.
in love with the feeling of being in love? it think that describes it perfectly. and yes i am of the mind that it is easy to love someone when you dont have to listen to them fart or figure out how to pay bills or worry about a sick child or deal with their problems in day to day life.
it is a load of rubbish. a toxic relationship based in lies and steeped in deceit...how can that even remotely be the basis of "love"? it is the absolute ANTITHESIS of love.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

We can say that whatever the WS feels for the AP(love, infatuation, attraction etc), steals its energy from the place that makes them feel love for the BS. Thus the longer the affair goes on, the harder it becomes to reconcile. 

At least this is true for WWs.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

It triggers Calvin when I tell him I love him but I do and try to find different ways of telling him so. What a mess I made.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Canttrust- you are right it was about the attention, to make me feel good about myself. That's exactly what it was.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> It triggers Calvin when I tell him I love him but I do and try to find different ways of telling him so. What a mess I made.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


me too.
not when you tell me, :rofl:
but when my wife does.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Calvin, you have set me thinking.* I realise that I never loved my AP. So... why was I with her, risking my marriage, if I didn't love her*?
> 
> Phew... That's puzzled me.:scratchhead:


You got me M&M,maybe the love wasnt real,maybe it was.
I know the pain is real.
Its sharp,it hurts and it keeps stabbing you over and over,day in,day out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

calvin said:


> You got me M&M,maybe the love wasnt real,maybe it was.
> I know the pain is real.
> Its sharp,it hurts and it keeps stabbing you over and over,day in,day out.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Did I subconsciously want to hurt my wife for having her affair?

Or did I want to do something to punish myself for allowing my wife to have her affair?


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

I believe from everyone's posts including mine that you have the answer....NO it's not real love for the AP in most situations
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

canttrustu said:


> And I believe loyal lover got it right with this: *They care more about how the person makes them feel than they actually care about the person.*
> 
> This had to be true in my H's case and in yours CSS bc in reality you(and my H) didnt even really know these people. He loved the feeling she gave him. Anyone could have given it, he just decided she was special. I think primarily bc of proximity and availability.
> 
> he too said he thought he "loved" her. How perposterous is that to say about someone when you dont even know their full name????


Thats just it cant,she thought she knew him.
CSS knows his middle name,his birthdate and always thought about him,did searches for him,believed he was innocent when he went to prison.
Every lie no matter how big or small during the A she believed.
One lie was that he quit his job to stay home and take care of his girlfriends kid for five years,we have talked to the "girlfriend",he wanted her,she was married,the POS was living with her and her husband while he couldnt get a job,I dont get why he would say stuff like that,to make himself look better I guess.
I love the lie about him being a "project manager" he's semi homeless,or the one about forgetting to pay his cell phone bill all the time,and he never wanted a smart phone,his company paid that,his buddy was a foreman at the vacum truck company.
I got all that taken away.
He played my wife,he wanted in her pants and that was it.That and to move into my house.
I think she was in love with him and I will never be "normal" again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

I hate my life.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## canttrustu (Feb 22, 2012)

calvin said:


> Thats just it cant,she thought she knew him.
> CSS knows his middle name,his birthdate and always thought about him,did searches for him,believed he was innocent when he went to prison.
> Every lie no matter how big or small during the A she believed.
> One lie was that he quit his job to stay home and take care of his girlfriends kid for five years,we have talked to the "girlfriend",he wanted her,she was married,the POS was living with her and her husband while he couldnt get a job,I dont get why he would say stuff like that,to make himself look better I guess.
> ...


No Calvin. Read your own words again. She didnt KNOW him. She knew what he told her. Would she have fallen for an ex con who couldnt keep a job? Would she have fallen for a guy who wouldnt stand up to her H? Would she have fallen for a liar and a thief???? 

NO. She fell for the illusion he sold not HIM.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

At the time they thought they were in love?
Now that they are able to step back and take a good look they know otherwise now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

calvin said:


> At the time they thought they were in love?
> Now that they are able to step back and take a good look they know otherwise now?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes. In most cases the "love" is a total illusion. That is the danger of the "fog". Some WS never come out of the fog, or they seek the feeling with another AP. My stbxw is an example. Almost 3 years of false R during which she was physically faithful. But emotionally we never re-connected because she wanted the feeling of "fresh" love. I believe she tried but it wasn't the same - she knew me too well and everything was too familiar - and we had kids and reality to deal with. 

What I SHOULD have done was ask her to leave when I discovered what I thought was an EA. Instead, for nearly 3 years the problem festered.

You need to jolt the WS out of the fog. You cannot "nice" her out. I learned this the hard way. And if you wait too long, the marital history re-writes are set in stone and cannot be changed back.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

canttrustu said:


> No Calvin. Read your own words again. She didnt KNOW him. She knew what he told her. Would she have fallen for an ex con who couldnt keep a job? Would she have fallen for a guy who wouldnt stand up to her H? Would she have fallen for a liar and a thief????


She might, we have read stories where the WS goes for the exact opposite of what they "claim" to like.


> NO. She fell for the illusion he sold not HIM.


Just like the BS, a WS believes what they want to keep the fantasy going.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

To say I hate my life is not true,just the way I feel sometimes.
I did jolt my wife out of it,I didnt stop.Once she had her head back on staight I went after the POS,I ruined his for sure.
He shouldnt have called me for eight months rubbing it in.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

calvin said:


> Thats just it cant,she thought she knew him.
> CSS knows his middle name,his birthdate and always thought about him,did searches for him,believed he was innocent when he went to prison.
> Every lie no matter how big or small during the A she believed.
> One lie was that he quit his job to stay home and take care of his girlfriends kid for five years,we have talked to the "girlfriend",he wanted her,she was married,the POS was living with her and her husband while he couldnt get a job,I dont get why he would say stuff like that,to make himself look better I guess.
> ...


Calvin... he lied. But who to? Himself, first and foremost.

why? Because he had all the potential to be someone and messed it all up.

Bloody Hell!  Calvin! He did not want CSS. He wanted *you*! Or rather... he wanted your life!

And of course, to get your life he had to get your wife.

You beat him, though. Thank God.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Yeah that's pretty much it MattMatt it's sickening
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

So for those of us whose spouses left them, are we to believe that our spouses really loved the AP ... or that we just blew our chances after D-day by not exposing wide enough, not 180'ing well enough, etc.

Because the way my wife talked she certainly seemed in fogged out fantasy land. In love with him, see a future together, etc. Now they're living together. She chose him, so does that mean it's love? My STBXW says the fact that OM would meet me shows he is committed. Oh really? Is it that simple?

I used to blame my wife more for the affair. Now I start to think that OM had such a large interloping hand in this.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Calvin... he lied. But who to? Himself, first and foremost.
> 
> why? Because he had all the potential to be someone and messed it all up.
> 
> ...


I kinda thought about that but not much.
That makes me wonder,he did break up a couple families and moved in until the woman figured him out and dumped him.
He wanted to be me? Hmmm...

That might explain his setting up fights and not showing and the phone calls.
That FVCK was testing me!!!!
Telling me he was coming over to rape CSS,he wanted to see if I'd fvcking run!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

staystrong said:


> She chose him, so does that mean it's love?


What the WS feels for the AP is attraction/infatuation. The first step of the whole "love" deal.If there is a rational component too, it can turn quite easily into a LTR. 

What we try to do by jolting them early on is making them see the rational side of how the marriage is better than their affair. Sometimes they are too far gone and nothing helps them.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

A common thing is I noticed quite a few only wake up a couple two or three years later and want back.
Sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

calvin said:


> At the time they thought they were in love?
> Now that they are able to step back and take a good look they know otherwise now?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


calvin, you have to stop thinking like this. When you were a boy in school did you ever have a crush on a teacher? When you were in high school did you ever fall madly in love with a girl and the next week or two you wouldn't even talk to each other? That's what is called limerence. It is not love its a crush. It's puppy love. Not real. That's why it doesn't last. Ever get drunk and swear you were p!ssing in the toilet only to find out the next day you were actually p!ssing in a flower pot...in the street....in front of the entire neighborhood? Yeah, its like that. Bad judgement on steroids.


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

Ah Calvin...that's the rub isn't it? I read all the flowery sh*t , the professed love. She knows it's crap now. Like someone else posted on here. They didn't have do deal with the mortgage, daycare, trash, homework, ect...


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

I can see that. 

I also think Love and respect intermingle. 

Initially I got my wife to try and break it off with OM. Then she quickly started leaning back to him. I made the fatal mistake of contacting OM via email after confronting him (nothing physical) and saying how WW and I were meant for each other, etc. Sickeningly, I think I was too "buddy-buddy" with him and not antagonistic enough. I think I was still at the point where I thought "we're all adults here; we know what's at stake (a marriage, a family)". I think my wife rightfully saw that as weak and things starting going downhill faster. Hmm, I think this is the first time I've confessed that on this board. It may have been the height of passivity - to be honest, I have no idea where my mind was. I actually assumed I was dealing with "honorable" people! Of course I'd do things completely different now. 

I guess my point is that the love that the WS feels for the BS is also determined a lot by the level of respect they have. Most of the time WS are looking for anything to make them critical or mad at the BS in order to justify their cheating. This is definitely part of the fog.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

calvin said:


> A common thing is I noticed quite a few only wake up a couple two or three years later and want back.
> Sad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Know what else I've noticed? That time frame is greatly reduced if the BS takes a firm stand and forces the situation to a head.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

bfree said:


> Know what else I've noticed? That time frame is greatly reduced if the BS takes a firm stand and forces the situation to a head.


Yep,I know that,wasted a coiple months cause I didnt want to believe it.
Taking a firm stance did stop it Chicago cold.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> What the WS feels for the AP is attraction/infatuation. The first step of the whole "love" deal.If there is a rational component too, it can turn quite easily into a LTR.
> 
> What we try to do by jolting them early on is making them see the rational side of how the marriage is better than their affair. Sometimes they are too far gone and nothing helps them.


Was this your personal experience with your WW? 

I can say with 100% certainty, my love for my husband is more lasting than anything I felt for om. He is the father of my children and has seen me at my best and worst! Whatever I felt for om should NOT have come into existence. Whether it was real or not, it shouldn't have happened. 

Calvin, seems like lots of people are rooting for you. Add me to the number! I wish you the best of luck.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> Was this your personal experience with your WW?
> 
> I can say with 100% certainty, my love for my husband is more lasting than anything I felt for om. He is the father of my children and has seen me at my best and worst! Whatever I felt for om should NOT have come into existence. Whether it was real or not, it shouldn't have happened.
> 
> Calvin, seems like lots of people are rooting for you. Add me to the number! I wish you the best of luck.


I know we're going to be fine.
Things are way better,it jumps up and bites you in the ass sometimes.
Even at a year out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

AnnieAsh said:


> Was this your personal experience with your WW?


Unfortunately, no. It was not a WW, it was a WGF that was a soon to be wife. I was too much of a Nice Guy(or maybe a wimp) from the beginning and the shock of what happened overwhelmed me easily. It has been 7-8 months since I last talked to her and I have just started recovering for a month or two.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

OK - I'll say it.

Yes, I loved the OW.

Flame away


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

old timer said:


> OK - I'll say it.
> 
> Yes, I loved the OW.
> 
> Flame away


I'm sure it happens.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

ugh ot
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

old timer said:


> OK - I'll say it.
> 
> Yes, I loved the OW.
> 
> Flame away


You're a brave man! When I admitted to not feeling negatively about the om, the posts were a little less than friendly!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

calvin said:


> I kinda thought about that but not much.
> That makes me wonder,he did break up a couple families and moved in until the woman figured him out and dumped him.
> He wanted to be me? Hmmm...
> 
> ...


Unless in some weird way he was hoping you'd kick his butt?

There was a weird kid at our school. He'd pick on people, bully them and then attack them, physically. Then, when they fought back, he'd squeal (a really shrill squeal) and throw himself down on the ground and make out they were beating him up.

The OM... He wanted to be the husband. Wanted to be the real man he could never be. He can fake it long enough to break the family up, but eventually he blows it and has to then leave to look for another husband to replace.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Unless in some weird way he was hoping you'd kick his butt?
> 
> There was a weird kid at our school. He'd pick on people, bully them and then attack them, physically. Then, when they fought back, he'd squeal (a really shrill squeal) and throw himself down on the ground and make out they were beating him up.


Ok M&M,you mess with my head,in a good way though.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> You're a brave man! When I admitted to not feeling negatively about the om, the posts were a little less than friendly!


Annie,I follwed your story for awhile,you and your H did get back together right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

calvin said:


> Ok M&M,you mess with my head,in a good way though.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


This is because my own head is so messed up, man! 

BTW, I added another bit to the post above...


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

The AP is in a sense being Idealized by the WS. The WS has emotional issues and allows themselves to get swept up into an affair. Affairs are very addictive. The AP can return the Idealization or the AP can just use the blind love/lust of the WS for pure selfish reasons like sex.

Rarely do AP and WS live happily ever after but it does happen. 

My WW and POSOM were doomed after I shone the light. I am glad for that of all things I did right. The dose of reality is really a great shock to the fantasy.


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## AnnieAsh (Aug 22, 2012)

calvin said:


> Annie,I follwed your story for awhile,you and your H did get back together right?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


We are together. I can say things are both better and worse. Better because I don't have to hide my activities but worse because the problems in the marriage are so much more apparent. 

It makes me hopeful for my own situation when you say that you're gonna make it.  I'm just going to keep plugging away.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

MovingAhead said:


> The AP is in a sense being Idealized by the WS. The WS has emotional issues and allows themselves to get swept up into an affair. Affairs are very addictive. The AP can return the Idealization or the AP can just use the blind love/lust of the WS for pure selfish reasons like sex.
> 
> Rarely do AP and WS live happily ever after but it does happen.
> 
> My WW and POSOM were doomed after I shone the light. I am glad for that of all things I did right. The dose of reality is really a great shock to the fantasy.


Now, here's the weird thing. Maybe I wanted the AP because she hadn't cheated on me? (My wife had, you see...)


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> We are together. I can say things are both better and worse. Better because I don't have to hide my activities but worse because the problems in the marriage are so much more apparent.
> 
> It makes me hopeful for my own situation when you say that you're gonna make it.  I'm just going to keep plugging away.


Yes I know what you mean...and it's worth the work
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

MattMatt said:


> Now, here's the weird thing. Maybe I wanted the AP because she hadn't cheated on me? (My wife had, you see...)


hmm ok possibly..did you feel justified because your wife did it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

CantSitStill said:


> hmm ok possibly..did you feel justified because your wife did it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Well... Yes. In all honesty. Perhaps I did. But not consciously.

The affair came to the point of a PA when the OW played a game. "What characters in Star Trek Voyager do you find attractive?"

This then went on to who do you find attractive in real life?

The answer from me of "you" really did lead to the situation where I nearly had sex with her, but, thank God, didn't. If I had, well, I would have lost my wife and my soul, I think.

But you know something? I did not find her that attractive. My wife has a habit of being a bit dismissive, sometimes. OW listened to me. She also liked Star Trek Voyager, like I did. We watched some recorded episodes. My wife hates Star Trek.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

I love Star Trek,maybe we should hook up M&M.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

After reading the responses I still dont know.
Was it real? No. Did she think its was?
Yes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## joe kidd (Feb 8, 2011)

CantSitStill said:


> hmm ok possibly..did you feel justified because your wife did it?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


That was my reasoning at the time. I told my self I was done and moving on.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

old timer said:


> OK - I'll say it.
> 
> Yes, I loved the OW.
> 
> Flame away


OT,

Did you live with her for any length of time? Did you each invite the other into your immediate lives? Did you spend several hours per day and multiplem days per week together non stop? See I don't think love really solidifies until these things happen. Up to that point it is still infatuation. You can't really love someone until you know them more than just a few dates or booty calls. I think that is why some marriages fail within the first couple of years. The two people don't give it enough time to go from infatuation into something deeper and more meaningful. At least that is how I feel about it.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

AnnieAsh said:


> We are together. I can say things are both better and worse. Better because I don't have to hide my activities but worse because the problems in the marriage are so much more apparent.
> 
> It makes me hopeful for my own situation when you say that you're gonna make it.  I'm just going to keep plugging away.


But now you aren't avoiding the issues. They are being met head on. Now they can be worked through and a better marriage is in the offing.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

calvin said:


> After reading the responses I still dont know.
> Was it real? No. *Did she think its was?*
> Yes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Again....drunk....p!ss....flower pot......what did I do!?


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

yes it was that never love yet a wanting it to be love? And Annie yes it's great having an open and honest marriage and yes it's work but yes I am thrilled that he took me back after I hurt him. No I don't deserse it but I know I won't hurt him again and no he wouldn't take me back if I did. And I don't blame him...after a year out you really do come back to reality, no it didn't take a year to come back, it didn't take me long actually oh and Yes I talk too much.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

bfree said:


> Again....drunk....p!ss....flower pot......what did I do!?


Yeah,I'm getting that bfree.
I really am. Its still kinda hard to grasp but,I see some of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

bfree said:


> OT,
> 
> Did you live with her for any length of time? Did you each invite the other into your immediate lives? Did you spend several hours per day and multiplem days per week together non stop? See I don't think love really solidifies until these things happen. Up to that point it is still infatuation. You can't really love someone until you know them more than just a few dates or booty calls. I think that is why some marriages fail within the first couple of years. The two people don't give it enough time to go from infatuation into something deeper and more meaningful. At least that is how I feel about it.


Now that means something.
I think youre right on there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

calvin said:


> I love Star Trek,maybe we should hook up M&M.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Now, either CSS is very interested by that idea or she has been very sick!:rofl:

Me? At my age I take compliments wherever I can!


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

calvin said:


> Yeah,I'm getting that bfree.
> I really am. Its still kinda hard to grasp but,I see some of it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


calvin, the one commonality I see in every affair is fantasy. I think that is beyond dispute. But think for a minute exactly what that means. I remember a while ago I had a dream about my wife. In the dream she did something really bad. I was so angry, furious actually. When I woke up I sat up and yelled at her waking her up. As I started to come to my senses I was aware of both being angry at her for what she did in my dream AND knowing consciously that it was a dream and she had in fact done nothing wrong. I often think about what the thought process is of someone who is cheating but is in reality not a bad person. I think my dream experience is probably the closest I will ever come to feeling what a person in that situation is feeling. A kind of duality of mind, knowing that it is wrong but unable to control the feelings behind the actions.


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

Almost the first thing out my WH's mouth on Dday was that he didn't know what "love" was when I asked him if he had told his AP he loved her...I agree with most posters here that typically the cheaters mistake their infatuation, lust and fantasy feelings for love. But I also identify what Asia(I think) said that often the deep love the MPs should feel for each other is gone ...where? perhaps underground to be resurrected during successful reconciliation... hopefully. And sometimes it is so far gone for the WS and the tear too deep for the BS to find again...but either way, for the BS, they will always question whether the RS is being truthful, whether they really do feel true and fulfilling love with the one they rejected previously...and thats the unfair consequences we pay, along with distrust and humiliation and anger. That is exactly the challenge we face: to determine whether our love can surpass those negative emotions and triumph in time...


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

allwillbewell said:


> Almost the first thing out my WH's mouth on Dday was that he didn't know what "love" was when I asked him if he had told his AP he loved her...I agree with most posters here that typically the cheaters mistake their infatuation, lust and fantasy feelings for love. But I also identify what Asia(I think) said that often the deep love the MPs should feel for each other is gone ...where? perhaps underground to be resurrected during successful reconciliation... hopefully. And sometimes it is so far gone for the WS and the tear too deep for the BS to find again...but either way, for the BS, they will always question whether the RS is being truthful, whether they really do feel true and fulfilling love with the one they rejected previously...and thats the unfair consequences we pay, along with distrust and humiliation and anger. That is exactly the challenge we face: to determine whether our love can surpass those negative emotions and triumph in time...


Tha+ was deep all.
Thank you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doc_martin (Oct 19, 2012)

I agree with the whole fantasy thing, for all of the reasons posted...

But, if the WS never gets to see the AP in reality (picking their nose, taking a smelly dump, throwing attitude, etc.), will they always "carry a torch" for that fantasy? Even if they "know" in their mind it is all fantasy and BS? Do they still wonder the "what ifs"? I have known about AP's googling about the other AP years later. Like, even still, they may have been one to "get away"?

That thought had always bothered me, even when I thought we really were in R. What do we do about the longing for the AP (which is really longing for the feeling found in the A)?


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Mobile now. I'll make a comment about my AP later. 

Suffice now to say that I knew her very well. 
In five years, I saw a lot of warts. Smelled her sh!t and all.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

doc_martin said:


> I agree with the whole fantasy thing, for all of the reasons posted...
> 
> But, if the WS never gets to see the AP in reality (picking their nose, taking a smelly dump, throwing attitude, etc.), will they always "carry a torch" for that fantasy? Even if they "know" in their mind it is all fantasy and BS? Do they still wonder the "what ifs"? I have known about AP's googling about the other AP years later. Like, even still, they may have been one to "get away"?
> 
> That thought had always bothered me, even when I thought we really were in R. What do we do about the longing for the AP (which is really longing for the feeling found in the A)?


My AP was a highschool bf and I thought of him and wondered what happend to him here and there but our breakup was cuz he was in prison..never found anything, tried google for newspaper articles. I found him on facebook while Calvin and I were having hard times and the EA started. Soo after I left the AP Calvin went and dug up all kinds of c,rap about him, then got a hold of ex friends and girlfriends of his..we found out he was not what he made himself out to be sooo no way in hell will I give a damn or have that wonder. I also know I love Calvin honestly truly with all my heart and do not want to chase anyone for a stupid fantasy..it's all bullcrap. I want no part of anyone but my true love..Calvin.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

btw a funny thing we found out..well..my EA never went physical and I thought that meant he respected me or was shy...the truth is, the idoit has no teeth! I swear I am not kidding..No wonder he never tried anything. He smiles but mostly with his mouth shut. I only saw him 4 times. People get involed with people they really know nothing about. Yeah I was stupid and almost lost my husband and kids.. NEver will I even think about allowing myself to risk my family..it's not worth it.. My kids know and hated me when I came to see them. That is hell. I am re-establishing my relationship with them and Calvin and ugg so many other people..I was the one that told most people but Calvin put it on facebook. It was like a freakin nightmare..but I deserved my consequences and am grateful to have him now. Yes some WS really do get it. When he hurts, I hurt too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

doc_martin said:


> I agree with the whole fantasy thing, for all of the reasons posted...
> 
> But, if the WS never gets to see the AP in reality (picking their nose, taking a smelly dump, throwing attitude, etc.), will they always "carry a torch" for that fantasy? Even if they "know" in their mind it is all fantasy and BS? Do they still wonder the "what ifs"? I have known about AP's googling about the other AP years later. Like, even still, they may have been one to "get away"?
> 
> That thought had always bothered me, even when I thought we really were in R. What do we do about the longing for the AP (which is really longing for the feeling found in the A)?


In the case of my stbxw she still carries the torch for the POSOM. The day after I contacted him - she tried to retract her confession of her PA. When I asked why she was protecting this jerk - she actually defended the guy saying he's not as bad as I thought. This is a POS who cheated on his first wife with my wife. Left his first wife and 2 young daughters (age 1 and 3). Lived in his Grandfather's basement - had a girlfriend, and screwed my wife. THEN, he got engaged to another girl while still screwing my wife. But he's a "good guy" according to my now stbxw. 

All my stbxw saw of this guy was golf and flirting. Endless flirty texts from work. Sexting from her health club computers. Then a PA in his Grandfather's basement. And she will always have this idealized view of the guy (who is now re-married with a 1 year old son). Life was so wonderful when he was around. 

I would wager that if this POSOM offered, my wife would invite him over to her condo to hump the sh!t out of him. Maybe not though, since she has latched on to a new fantasy with a 35 year old that her toxic friends introduced last summer when we were still married and living together.


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## Kaya62003 (Jan 8, 2013)

Cedarman said:


> Every WS should picture their AP's in the morning - before the rush to work. With bed hair and morning breath. Sitting naked on the toilet pushing out a rancid morning constitutional while picking their toenails. Meanwhile your kids need breakfast and a lunch packed. Your AP, from the perch on the throne, says "you do it today, I'm busy.... " You sniff the air and remember: "Hey, did you pay the gas bill??"


Hahahahahaha!!!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## doc_martin (Oct 19, 2012)

Cedarman said:


> In the case of my stbxw she still carries the torch for the POSOM. The day after I contacted him - she tried to retract her confession of her PA. When I asked why she was protecting this jerk - she actually defended the guy saying he's not as bad as I thought. This is a POS who cheated on his first wife with my wife. Left his first wife and 2 young daughters (age 1 and 3). Lived in his Grandfather's basement - had a girlfriend, and screwed my wife. THEN, he got engaged to another girl while still screwing my wife. But he's a "good guy" according to my now stbxw.
> 
> All my stbxw saw of this guy was golf and flirting. Endless flirty texts from work. Sexting from her health club computers. Then a PA in his Grandfather's basement. And she will always have this idealized view of the guy (who is now re-married with a 1 year old son). Life was so wonderful when he was around.
> 
> I would wager that if this POSOM offered, my wife would invite him over to her condo to hump the sh!t out of him. Maybe not though, since she has latched on to a new fantasy with a 35 year old that her toxic friends introduced last summer when we were still married and living together.


...yeah, like that.

One of the many reasons I am glad my own fog is lifting. What a joke. I don't need to be around that.


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

OK, on the PC now. 

While many here may disagree with what I have to say, jump up and down, tear their clothes and likely flame the he!! out of me, I will give you my take on this subject, for what it's worth. 

To preface, bear in mind most replying on this thread are "betrayeds" giving their interpretation of how a WS feels about their AP - looking from the outside in. This is from the "dirty" heart and mind of a long term cheater. Like it or not - these are my thoughts:

I agree that, initially, an adulterous affair is all about the thrills, the hot sex, the secrecy and excitement. However, once an A moves into an extended time frame (mine lasted five years), unless a WS truly has the "Dark Triad" personality - a narcissistic, Machiavellian psychopath - there is no way an A can continue without true, deep feelings and affection for the AP, IMO. For the record, I score pretty high on the "Dark Triad" test. 

Had my A been found out early on, I would have thrown my AP under the bus in a heartbeat. Once we developed a history together (uncountable weekends together, several trips together, exchanging gifts for birthdays and Christmas, etc), our relationship moved beyond the range of the "fog" that everyone speaks of. Looking back, I was likely in a fog for a long period of time, maybe a couple of years, but eventually it became more of a true friendship based on mutual respect and love for one another...the kind of friendship a marriage is supposed to be founded upon.

My A started out as a sexual thing, but over time, became much, much more. 

Did I abandon my wife, physically and emotionally? 
Yes - I did.
Did I know it was wrong? 
Yes - I did. 

Why did I not stop?
I rationalized it initially by thinking "I'm getting a sexual and emotional outlet that I do not get at home". OW made no demands of me for more commitment. Quite frankly, she was more careful about keeping the A from being found out than me. I was possibly unconsciously TRYING to get caught, I don't know.

She was a very independent single mother who had lived on her own for 25 years when the A began. I didn't help support her, but I probably showed her more affection than anyone she had ever known - and ultimately, that's all she had to gain from our relationship.

For my part, I was a "cake-eater" of the highest order. 

My wife and I were having problems. I emotionally checked out, leaving her essentially high and dry at the most critical time of her life. I took the easy, selfish way out by not addressing our problems and either repairing the marriage or biting the bullet, getting a divorce and moving on.

Am I sorry I did it?
Damn right - more than anyone can ever know. 
But I cannot unring the bell.

So - there you have it - flame away.


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## Kaya62003 (Jan 8, 2013)

old timer said:


> OK, on the PC now.
> 
> While many here may disagree with what I have to say, jump up and down, tear their clothes and likely flame the he!! out of me, I will give you my take on this subject, for what it's worth.
> 
> ...


No thanks for sharing. I do have a question. Are you sorry because you were caught? Or are you sorry for betraying your spouse and not addressing and trying to repair your marriage? Or did your AP and you realize that it wasn't right and split and now you are by yourself??? :scratchhead:


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

I didn't get "caught". My AP and I had broken off the A about 3 mos before I discovered my W's affair last Sept. (yep, it's a real cluster-fvck). 

In the spirit of true R, I volunteered the info about my own A. The odds of me ever having been found out w/o my confession were virtually nil. I just thought my W having the info was the fair and right thing to do, so she could make a better-informed decision as to whether she wated to R or not. 

I am truly sorry about not meeting our M probs head-on and my cheating. 

We are currently separated (her request). I was very anxious for R as recently as a month ago, but some things W has done have made me question if R is really what is best for me (and her).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## staystrong (Sep 15, 2012)

> I agree that, initially, an adulterous affair is all about the thrills, the hot sex, the secrecy and excitement. However, once an A moves into an extended time frame (mine lasted five years), unless a WS truly has the "Dark Triad" personality - a narcissistic, Machiavellian psychopath - there is no way an A can continue without true, deep feelings and affection for the AP, IMO. For the record, I score pretty high on the "Dark Triad" test.


Can you elaborate on that? How do you know you score higher relative to other cheaters? Many cheaters exhibit extremely selfish, scheming tendencies.


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## bfree (Sep 30, 2012)

But OT, that's exactly the point. Its not how long it lasted but whether it moved into the realm of reality and out of fantasy land. Your affair never did that did it? You say you went on vacations together....fantasy. You said you spent weekends together....fantasy. You said you both exchanged gifts....fantasy. None of that was real. You didn't live together day after day dealing with the mundane crap that all couples have to. You didn't see her used tampons all the time. She didn't hear you farting and belching constantly. You never had to unclog the toilet after she dropped a load. She didn't have to wash your underwear making sure to remove the skid marks. It was all a fantasy regardless of how long it lasted. That is why most affairs fall apart if the APs finally come together full time. That is why most 2nd marriages born out of affair don't last beyond a year or two. Once the fantasy is broken and reality creeps in the AP doesn't look so good. In your case (and maybe your wife's) it almost sounds like you are still idealizing the fantasy of the affair. I would think it would be hard to truly R a marriage if that is going on.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

So after reading all the responses,I have come to the conclusion that it isnt "love" with the AP.
The idea,infatuation,the lies the AP says to make them something they're not.
Thje loser CSS was talking to was telling her how rich he was when he was in fact flat out broke,no car,house,the only thing he owned was a nice flat screen.
After I exposed when his gf kicked him out he told her he met CSS at a bar and she said she was single.
He cheated on every woman and man he was with.
I really believe he was bi cause of the stuff he told CSS that happend when he was in prison.
I dont see how CSS could believe everything he said.
I thing M&M was right,he wanted my life without having to do any of the work.
Thanks guys,your answers made me feel a lot better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

old timer, no flame here.
thats pretty much what my wife said.
heres my thing:
i would have been willing and able to meet those needs had they, or the lack of them, been brought up. they werent.
i can understand having to have a need met. whether that is an emotional need or a physical need. what i cannot abide or understand (in my case) is the stringing along and basically having that need met, all the while using and playing me to provide for the family. in other words, being too chicken sh!t to cut me loose and go find the happy life with AP.
dont understand the weakness that must be present in a person to do something like that. its a real road block in my wife and my reconcilliation. because i do not understand it, and when its on my mind i look at my wife and ask myself "what kind of person is this woman"?


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

My POS was dangerous,called me and taunted me with threats of raping my wife,going to come over to my house,seting up fights then running.
Even told me I owed him money for my wifes abortion.
CSS thought she "knew" him since they went to hs together,well he went straight to prison.
People change after 20 years,sometimes for the worst but AP always pretend to be something they are NOT
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

calvin said:


> My POS was dangerous,called me and taunted me with threats of raping my wife,going to come over to my house,seting up fights then running.
> Even told me I owed him money for my wifes abortion.
> CSS thought she "knew" him since they went to hs together,well he went straight to prison.
> People change after 20 years,sometimes for the worst but AP always pretend to be something they are NOT
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Let me add, the jackass said all that crap on Valentines Day. First he actually called my cell phone and the voicemail was him talking to someone but hard to hear, I instantly called Calvin and gave him the number. This was after C,alvin me and him confirmed with him the NC..woulda done a letter but didn"t know his address so we did it on facebook. Anyway the jackass said all kinds of discusting things to Calvin to ruin our Valentines Day...why the heck couldnt he just apologise and let it be? My gosh he told Calvin to meet up at the park and then told him he's on is way to the house to rape me knowing Calvin was at work and had to immediately leave and I had to immediately get the kids and get out of the house. The jackass has never been in my house and I never told him where I live but didnt wanna take any chances... we need to make this Valentines Day much better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Btw..after that day we had him blocked from our phones...he was texting Calvin all night that day...well he landed up calling Calvin with his other work phone so we finally had to go to the police..it was funny listening to the officer talk to him on the phone...yet embarrassing because I went to high school with him and we know eachother..He promised to keep it confidential.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LookingForTheSun (Dec 28, 2011)

MattMatt said:


> The OM... He wanted to be the husband. Wanted to be the real man he could never be. He can fake it long enough to break the family up, but eventually he blows it and has to then leave to look for another husband to replace.




The OW in my tragedy - she told my hubs she wanted what I had, then painted a picture of how much better what he had would be with me out of the picture and her in it. Makes me sick...until I think about how she is still single, unmarried and no kids, living as a roomate to her ex BF and still has a childs mentality...and is still a wh*re looking for her next score. >>>>>>>winning>>>>>>>>>:smthumbup:


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## Loyal Lover (Jan 30, 2013)

old timer said:


> Had my A been found out early on, I would have thrown my AP under the bus in a heartbeat. Once we developed a history together (uncountable weekends together, several trips together, exchanging gifts for birthdays and Christmas, etc), our relationship moved beyond the range of the "fog" that everyone speaks of. Looking back, I was likely in a fog for a long period of time, maybe a couple of years, but eventually it became more of a true friendship based on mutual respect and love for one another...the kind of friendship a marriage is supposed to be founded upon.
> 
> My A started out as a sexual thing, but over time, became much, much more.
> 
> ...


Old Timer, very interested insight.

If I may ask, how did you feel about your wife during the affair?
How does the love compare to your love for the OW?

And if your wife had an affair herself and you say you loved your AP, why is it that you regret it?

If you could do it over again knowing everything you know now what would you rather do: A) work harder on your marriage when the problems started arising (before either of you had affairs) or even avoid them altogether and not cheat on your wife or B) divorce your wife amicably and then start a proper relationship with the OW (without ever having cheated on your wife)? And why?


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

Loyal Lover said:


> Old Timer, very interested insight.
> 
> If I may ask, how did you feel about your wife during the affair?
> How does the love compare to your love for the OW?
> ...


The best way I can describe my feelings toward my wife during the A would be ambivalence. 

For, I think, obvious reasons - I would pick option A above. 

I never thought I would cheat on my W.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Oldtimer the positive out of what you went thru is that you are here on TAM sharing your story so that others c,an hopefully learn from it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## old timer (Nov 23, 2012)

If there's anything positive to learn from my experience, it would be for husbands and wives to NEVER stop talking, especially about what bothers them. 

The conversations will often be uncomfortable, but nowhere nearly as uncomfortable as dealing w the fallout from infidelity.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

old timer said:


> If there's anything positive to learn from my experience, it would be for husbands and wives to NEVER stop talking, especially about what bothers them.
> 
> The conversations will often be uncomfortable, but nowhere nearly as uncomfortable as dealing w the fallout from infidelity.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You got that right OT
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## allwillbewell (Dec 13, 2012)

OT, your posts give me a lot of insight into how my H might have felt as he was in a LTA for six years! "Just friends" to EA to PA in a year...me asking numerous times what was wrong, was he having A, did he want a divorce? I so believed his lies and gaslighting and never had a clue he was boinking OW not more than 100 yds away from where I slept, in his office on our property. What a freakin' fool I was! I accept now that he felt some kind of bond with her after 6 years, but not real love in that he was able to let her go with a fair amount of ease much to her chagrin and fury. I am having a hard time forgiving H fully for abandoning me and marriage when times got tough and I don't know if I can ever forgive OW for interjecting herself into my marriage when she realized it was in trouble and trying to destroy it. The six years they spent in la-la land, (altho it was far less than you describe for your own A) could well have been the six years my H and I recognized how far apart and disfunctional we had gotten, gone to MC and restored our marriage without all the pain of an A...lost years never to be reclaimed. But like you say, that bell was rung...


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