# Parental Alienation



## LostinMO (Jan 1, 2016)

*In 2011, my wife decided to leave. She took our 12 year old son out of the house. I did not give permission. She just took him. Anyway, she wanted to move out of state and he was all excited to go too. Her family lived in that state. My son had mentioned that his mom talked to him about moving to TX before she even told me she was leaving. I'd pick him up and he'd be mad at me because I wasn't going to let him go. That was between me and his mom but she made sure he knew why they might not be able to go. I know that her and her family (she stayed with her daughter close by when she first took him away) would say stuff using him as leverage against me. He told me he hated it up here, where he's lived his whole life. He told me that if he lived in TX he'd get to go to the beach every day. 

Anyway, I didn't have the money to drag this out in court so I opted to let him go and I got the best deal I could for letting him. Anyway while he was in TX he started smoking pot and I was never told. The ex couldn't make it down there and they eventually moved back. I found out on my own about him smoking pot and when she knew I knew, she confessed. She should have told me right away. He's gotten into a lot of trouble since the divorce. Even put in a home for troubled kids for a couple of months since they moved back up here.

It wasn't working out so she up and moved again. They are about 15 miles away. He doesn't want much to do with me. I call him but he rarely answers the phone and he never calls me back. I msg her to have him call me but he doesn't. Once in a while I might be able to catch him on facebook. When it was his birthday and Christmas, he wanted to come see me because he figured I'd have something for him. I talked to him but he said he wasn't mad at me. That was at Christmas. I haven't been able to get ahold of him since except for once on facebook. He is 17 not and it appears I have totally lost him.

I was a good dad to him. He has no good reason to just totally ignore me and I never thought this would've happened but here we are. When he went to the home for troubled youth, my ex's daughter told me that my son told her that he hated me. When he was there, I talked to those counselors about visiting him and he kept saying he wasn't ready. Finally he was okay with me coming to visit. He never told me he hated me. He said hate was a strong word. So I guess it's less than hate?

There has been so much **** that I know about, I wonder what I don't know. This includes finding a witchcraft ritual on his ipad that the school gives out. It was with a grown woman who thinks she is a witch. She is really close to neighborhood kids and this is what she does. Talked to a lawyer. Nothing I could do. He mentioned something about pago-christian. Just stupid **** that he never was into before the divorce and before being taken away. He was a good boy.

So much more crap but nobody's got time for a novel.

Anyway, any ideas on what I should do? Or if there is even anything I can do?*


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## WhyMe66 (Mar 25, 2016)

LostinMO said:


> *In 2011, my wife decided to leave. She took our 12 year old son out of the house. I did not give permission. Anyway, any ideas on what I should do? Or if there is even anything I can do?*


Well, I don't know about MO but here in TX one parent doesn't need the permission of the other parent... Wow, it sounds like a lot of crap I dealt with concerning my daughter! She eventually hit the terrible teens and decided she hated me because I laid down the law. So you say that your son now says that "hate" is too strong a word. OK that is progress. You were the enforcer, the rule maker-correct? Sounds like... And your ExW was the permissive free spirit? So she was the fun one and you were the buzzkill. Sadly your son was a victim of a propaganda campaign that would have given Goebbels some wood. Mostly it is going to take tincture of time for the rift between you two to heal. Be thankful he is old enough to see through some of her bullstein. It is apparent that he has because hate is too strong a word now. Keep the avenues of communication open. If he asks or if he allows, y'all can friend each other on Facebook. Take baby steps, he is incorporating new thought processes; "Dad is not a butt hole jerk" and it will take time. In this case patience and understanding aren't just virtues they are absolute necessities.

Oh, and don't do something like showing up at his place with a pony or such-he will see that as a bald faced attempt to buy his affections and that will set you back a thousand years... I know it sounds counter-intuitive but you will not be able to "nice" or "gift" your way back into his good graces. However that is not to say that, as things get better, you can't invite him to a ball game or something.

Good luck!


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## LostinMO (Jan 1, 2016)

*Thank you. She used me as the bad guy when we were married. She was talking to my step son and she told him that if he doesn't straighten up, she's going to turn him over to me. I was sitting there when this happened. Now, her kids were both just entering their teens years. It was hard to try and build some relationship with them. It was all underminded by her with a threat like that. It wasn't my place to discipline them. That was her job. But she wanted to be friends with them.

But when I visited my son while he was in that home for troubled youth, we were witting there with 2 counselors and he said one of the reasons he was mad at me was because mom told him that one day I was onto his step brother and my son was running around laughing and I picked him up and spanked his butt. Just for running around and laughing. Now get this...he said he did not remember that. But mom told him it happened. Now, I rarely spanked my son. And it sure as hell never happened because he was running around laughing. IT never freaking happened. But he was mad at me for what his mom told him that I did. 

I hope that he comes around in time. But it's been a long time already. This should never happen to anyone.*


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

I am sorry you are going through a tough time. You need to do what you believe is right, keep plugging along. 

I have a close family member that went through a divorce. Saw the son at a family gathering and was surprised that he knew and understood more than either parent. I think in the end your son will appreciate your time and dedication. 

It can be hard. I remember being called to school ready for the vice-principal to lambaste me and then my son started saying some nasty things to me and the v.p. felt sorry for me, which was perhaps the most hurtful thing. We have a close relationship now, (me and my son not the vice-principal) and I think he appreciates that I was there for him even when times were hard.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

Walk away and life your life.

Stop trying.

You've done more than enough.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

The spanking memory is called enmeshment. The kids are told stories to the point they feel they lived them themselves. Reality has fuzzy lines after a while.

Read my story in my link. It will give you some ideas on how to combat alienation. Keep in touch - frequently text and call. Even if he doesn't answer, he knows you tried. When you DO get to speak with him, only talk about happy memories between you two - remember that ballgame, remember going to the skate park, remember vacations... if you have photos of those happy memories, display them or share them on FB or use them on throwback Thursdays. You need to spark the memories that were happy that involved you. His mother has made it seem like everything was awful and she was the good one. You need to remind him of reality - that both parents have good and bad qualities. He should be the age where he is questioning things so it's a good time. 

You may want to pick up Divorce Poison by Richard Warshack. I recently read a book about adult children of alienated parents. Almost all of them knew it wasn't right but they felt they had to choose one parent out of a sense of survival. They knew if they complied with the alienating parent they'd be in favor with them. 

I got my girl back but it took YEARS. She was 10 when I was able to get her back after just one month of her being taken. SHe hated me and didn't want to live with me. She wouldn't hug, kiss or tell me she loved me. First year I'd say I love you and try to hug her. She wouldn't reply and her arms would hang at her side. I employed the techniques from the book above. By year 2 I got a "you, too" at bedtime and one-armed hugs. Year 3 I'd get two armed hugs. It was nearly 3 years to the day she was taken before I got a spontaneous "I love you, Mom!" and a hug. I cried relief.

Please don't take mclane's advice. I doubt he's a parent. My coworkers said if their kids ever talked to them that way they'd show them the door. True alienation is a different beast and it's not the real kid, it's their protective shell you have to chisel away at.

Feel free to PM me if you want.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Please don't take mclane's advice. I doubt he's a parent.


You're wrong, I am a parent to 2 daughters, both of who were poisoned by my now exwife. After years of trying I realized I was just giving up too much of my life and it was time to throw my hands in the air, walk away, and save myself.

You tried and fought for years and eventually you won back your daughter. That's wonderful news, and I'm happy for you.

Sometimes it's impossible. 



EnjoliWoman said:


> My coworkers said if their kids ever talked to them that way they'd show them the door.


Yes and for good reason. Sometimes the efforts are futile.

Sometimes you have to give up your children and hope they figure it out for themselves some day because the constant struggle literally eats away at your will to live.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

3leafclover said:


> His son has only been gone five years and is still a minor.


His son is 17, out of his father's life for 5 years, is full of hatred and has many problems. That's more than enough for most people to say 'screw this, good bye and good luck, you know where to find me if and when you're interested'. 

After being separated from each of my daughters for 3 and 2 years respectively during my divorce, because my exwife poisoned them against me, I finally gave up, and it was a few months after I stopped chasing after them that first one and then the other contacted me, and they both moved in with me (at different times) for the better part of a year, mainly because they couldn't handle living with my exwife anymore, they sought me out because I was the "lesser of two evils". 

But things were never the same, and my oldest moved out after less than a year and is living in another part of the state with her boyfriend and 2 young children and at the moment we are again estranged.

My youngest is in her 2nd year of college and while we are not estranged per say, she has no interest in seeing me and I only hear from her when she needs something every few months or thereabouts. 

The pain the whole ordeal has cost me is beyond description, all I can say is that I didn't start getting any results until I gave up and went dark, and things have been easier for me since I said "screw it I did my part and was the best father I could be and if they don't want to be in my life for whatever reasons, that's their choice and I accept it until and unless something changes".

I can live with that.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Mclane said:


> You're wrong, I am a parent to 2 daughters, both of who were poisoned by my now exwife. After years of trying I realized I was just giving up too much of my life and it was time to throw my hands in the air, walk away, and save myself.
> 
> You tried and fought for years and eventually you won back your daughter. That's wonderful news, and I'm happy for you.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry that you had such a horrible experience. Sure, it would have been easier, probably less heartbreaking after some time and certainly cheaper since it cost me 40K, but I NEVER wanted my daughter to think I gave up on her. EVER. I have to look at myself every day and I would be ashamed that I didn't give it everything I had if I hadn't fought and fought HARD for her.

I also learned that most alienating parents have a personality disorder. Lots of parents are angry and vengeful of their ex but _normal_ people don't make their kids suffer and choose. I had to save her from becoming narcissistic like him or from no longer being in his favor and suffering verbal and physical abuse like I did. I could not, in good conscience, leave her to live like that with him. I loved her too much to let her make an uninformed choice that would result in much suffering.

My ex didn't want any support - I could have saved the 40K, focused on my career and made six figures by now. You may take more money to your grave, but I will have my daughter in my life til the die one of us dies.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

EnjoliWoman said:


> You may take more money to your grave, but I will have my daughter in my life til the die one of us dies.


Unless you say or do something to piss her off and she decides to stop speaking to you again. Even after my daughters came back into my life, they were arrogant, insulting, disrespectful, and I found myself constantly walking on eggshells trying to appease them. My girlfriend saw this on many occasions and she told me that it hurt to see me doing this for so long with no positive response, she's a good natured person and she was so furious at my daughters for how they treated me that she referred to them as arrogant ᴄunts. At the time I was very angry with her- I just didn't see it. Now I look back and I understand what she meant. 

It may not be their "fault", they may have been "brainwashed" into acting and thinking like completely different people, but at some point they need to be responsible and accountable for their actions and what effects they have on people.

They've made their choices, they no longer have their father in their life despite the fact that I was loving, caring, supportive, and never abusive.

I can sleep at night knowing I tried, even if I didn't spend as much money as you did fighting a legal battle to get your daughter back. My situation was a bit different, after reading enough parental alienation books to start a small library, I classified my ex as a "passive" alienator.. one who does not actively disparage the other parent through hatred, it's more subtle and maybe not even on a conscous level but just as damaging. When each daughter in turn finally decided to try it out with good ole' dad, my ex did not fight the change in custody. 



EnjoliWoman said:


> I have to look at myself every day and I would be ashamed that I didn't give it everything I had if I hadn't fought and fought HARD for her.


I didn't give it everything I had. I gave a lot, and I can look at myself in the mirror knowing it was a good effort. Even if I didn't spend every dime.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

My ex was diagnosed narcissistic on the severe end of the spectrum and was very active in his alienation. The fact he was able to do it while I had primary custody and he had alternating weekend visitation was pretty telling. 

I did NOT walk on eggshells with my daughter. In fact, what I had read said that implies fault and to continue to be the rock they need. So with me she still had bedtimes, homework, chores, etc. To try to appease her to win her back would have insinuated that I had done something wrong and deserved to be alienated. I said No. I made her eat vegetables and clean her room.

Instead I went to great lengths to prove her hatred was not justified. I took her to work where coworkers extolled my virtues. I put together photo albums for the coffee table which always drew in her friends (kids love looking at photos) and then she would be sitting there with her friends looking at all of those vacation, holiday and activity photos where she was HAPPY and where I was an active part. I made sure my friends said nice things about me/my parenting in earshot. I had my family become involved and bring up happy memories involving her and the rest of us. We watched movies like Mrs. Doubtfire and spoke about brainwashing and making people think things about others and how people should make up their OWN mind how they feel about someone. And I maintained those boundaries. It was constant and emotionally exhausting.

Eventually I told her about her father's diagnosis. I was very matter-of-fact and explained it meant that he thought he was better than everyone and he was always right and nothing I could do would ever be right and that he wouldn't be capable of change. She took AP psych in 10th grade probably because of him. She learned a lot about personality disorders. After she cut him off this year (he was calling her a c***, slvt, stupid, screaming, threatening, etc. any time things didn't go perfectly), she began asking questions about the "truths" he told her. One of them was I lied that he had given me a black eye. I asked if she wanted to see the photo. She did. I pulled it out and showed her - she was 2 and we were snuggled napping with my eyelid quite purple. She handed it back. She hasn't questioned anything since. Now she knows all of the blame placed on me for the divorce was a lie. 

But he had really indoctrinated her for a while there. There were many times she would speak in snotty tones with disrespectful language and refused affection or went off on me and I wondered if she would ever care again. I knew my loving girl was in there somewhere.

ETA - I don't think I'll do anything to tick her off that will cause her to leave now. But if she does, I'll keep reaching out normally like I always do. I won't beg her to come back to the fold, I'll keep showing her I'm a person of value that deserves more. I can't see her going back to her Dad at this point. She doesn't even want him to help with college expenses or ask for help with a car even though she knows it means more expense for her.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

EnjoliWoman said:


> I did NOT walk on eggshells with my daughter. In fact, what I had read said that implies fault and to continue to be the rock they need. So with me she still had bedtimes, homework, chores, etc. To try to appease her to win her back would have insinuated that I had done something wrong and deserved to be alienated. I said No. I made her eat vegetables and clean her room.


Yes, and you had them most of the time, I was the "visiting" or "secondary" parent and I had to make those very limited times together count. To be hard on them, to be strict would have simply driven them right back to their mom so I tried to keep it light, and fun, even though I was well aware that I was being "too nice". I felt I had no choice when they were barely speaking to me, or for a period of 2 and 3 years, not at all, my contact was limited to leaving messages.

By the time they came back as angry teenagers, although I had "house rules" and enforced them, there was too much damage done and like I said, they didn't stay very long. 

Sometimes nothing works. Some of us don't have the tenacity that you do, the ability to give it all and then some.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

The good news is most of them realize what was happening once they are older. By the time they are 30, they have enough maturity to disregard the offhanded comments from the alienated parent and often feel bad for their part in everything. It's not over.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

EnjoliWoman said:


> The good news is most of them realize what was happening once they are older. By the time they are 30, they have enough maturity to disregard the offhanded comments from the alienated parent and often feel bad for their part in everything. It's not over.


This is true and studies support this. 

So why get all bent out of shape now?

I'll wait.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Mclane said:


> This is true and studies support this.
> 
> So why get all bent out of shape now?
> 
> I'll wait.


In my case I didn't want my daughter to become narcissistic because it would have been permanent. Narcissists generally develop because of a lack of bonding with someone they love at a very young age OR by being treated like the center of attention and believing they are special and above it all (like males in male dominated societies). If she had developed a lack of empathy and sense of entitlement to the degree of a narcissist, she wouldn't ever come back.


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## Mclane (Apr 28, 2016)

EnjoliWoman said:


> In my case I didn't want my daughter to become narcissistic because it would have been permanent.


Yeah it's probably too late for my daughters.

It was probably too late after the first estrangement. 

The change I saw in them over those short few years was astronomical.


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## LostinMO (Jan 1, 2016)

*One thing I want to bring up about the alienation is that I remember him telling me that mom was there for him and now (when the divorce was happening) he was going to be there for her. And I think...the reason mom was there was because dad worked 10-12 hours a day or night, up to 6 days a week. Dad is the workhorse that made the money that paid the bills and put food on the table. Mom was able to work a part time job in the school cafeteria and was off when our son was off. And again, that was because of me.

Anyway, I have read the thread and I can see both sides of the story. I did what I thought was best while still being able to support myself. Some good news in that he has been over to see me a couple of times in the past month or so. *


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## Unicus (Jun 2, 2016)

This is undoubtedly a very complicated situation that has gone on a long time and is chronic. No easy solutions. The good news..if you can call it that..is that it is so bad that your son has to realize this. 

I'd do two things. The first, is separate the nonsense btwn you and your ex and the ensuing difficulties, from the real issues btwn you and your son. They're related, but frankly it doesn't sound like you can fix both. Maybe by separating them you can focus on the important one..your son. This isn't ideal but b/c he's older, even though it's obviously preferable to co parent him, he's at an age where you can parent him independently.

Then I'd sit down with him and ask him what's been bothering him..in general and specifically with you. Chances are he won't be prepared for that, so I'd let him think it over for a few days and revisit it. Be prepared to listen and not defend yourself, either.

You can repair a deteriorated relationship, but its easier when you start with the basics, even if they go back a long ways. It doesn't sound as if you've had the luxury to do that, you're in crisis mode, but consider taking the "Hey, let's talk" tack and see where that goes.

Professional therapy also a really good idea.


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## LostinMO (Jan 1, 2016)

*Been a year now since I started this thread.  Just wanted to update. My son is 18 and quit school a few months ago. His mom moved and didn't let him go with her. HE contacted me for the first time in months and just asked for money. I have been going thru a financial hardship and when I said no, he got mad, said FU and hung up. That was a couple of months ago. Have heard nothing since.*


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