# “It’s never good enough for you” double-standard?



## aaarghdub

Curious if I’m the only one who thinks there is a double-standard between the sexes on the phrase spelled out in the title? Do you think people use that phrase as a way to dodge culpability in something they should own but choose not to. I also feel like woman get a pass but guys do not because women remind us their under such societal pressure (which I do believe exists BTW).

Specifically if the woman says “it’s never good enough for you” the guy has to back down and respect that “that’s how she is” and he’s ass for bringing it up. If he says it, it’s a flimsy excuse and he’s not owning it. It’s almost as if she’s using the phrase to deflect any criticism whatsoever.

If the following “are “not good enough” he has to own it and fix it:
- work ethic, salary, standard of living 
- being more romantic
- doing more with kids
- zoning out or not engaging more 
- not listening 
- eating and fitness habits
- developing stronger religious faith 
- watching less sports 
- noticing other women/avoiding porn
- desiring enthusiastic sex
- dressing like a slob
- not wanting to go out on a date 
- housework or home maintenance equity 
- drinking, smoking less
- speaking her love languages 
- supporting her passions / hobbies

If the following are not good enough he needs to accept her for who she is and quit try to change her:
- spending more than they make
- house, car, finances in general 
- unenthusiastic sex or (wanting too much sex)
- dressing down 24/7
- poor eating habits 
- listening to respond not take in 
- obsession with social media and Pinterest
- dating the kids rather than dating your spouse
- minimal interest his passions 
- addressing medical issues 



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## cheapie

Oh, I tend to agree with this, and I'm a woman. I think that society these days pretty much has the attitude that a man is not a good husband/boyfriend/partner unless the woman gets her way 99% of the time. I think feminism, for all the good things it has accomplished as far as women getting equal rights/opportunities, has morphed into something that does a disservice to both genders by trying to turn men into women with penises, as if the female outlook/approach to life is the "correct" one. Not everyone thinks this, of course, but it seems to be the prevelant message in the media and advertising.

Both men and women should own their behaviors and be committed to working on the things that erode the strength of a relationship.


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## Girl_power

I think that I am more critical than my partner. He is happy with minimum so he doesn’t ever suggest anything for me or anything. Whereas I always to more or to improve or whatever, and I find he never changes and wants me to just be happy and accept him for who he is. On his opinion I demand perfect, and I think he is way off base and I think he’s a little lazy and dramatic.


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## father_of_2

I think this is embodied in the representation of men on TV, especially in sitcoms and commercials, as useless oafs who (despite having a high paying job that puts a roof over their family's heads) can't seem to tie his shoes correctly or is only interested in watching football, has no interest in the kids, etc. But the women are there to tell him what to wear, where to be, and when he needs to lose some weight.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Or you're 'controlling' when it comes to eating habits or finances... not her, though...


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## aaarghdub

Girl_power said:


> I think that I am more critical than my partner. He is happy with minimum so he doesn’t ever suggest anything for me or anything. Whereas I always to more or to improve or whatever, and I find he never changes and wants me to just be happy and accept him for who he is. On his opinion I demand perfect, and I think he is way off base and I think he’s a little lazy and dramatic.



What you really wanna say is “sure I accept and love you for who you are... I just find it increasingly unattractive.” I know I do. Smacks of entitlement. Partners need to realize there are hundreds of other people willing to take their place. Funny how when we’re in the dating pool it’s ALL about self-improvement.

Discussing this with my wife this weekend I said that your spouse sees who you are and your potential often better than you. I didn’t want to necessarily improve myself at the time but I did and I’m much better, thanked her for it and that I trust her judgement. I said it kinda hurts that instead of trusting me she thinks I just need to accept her how she is. 

EDIT: to me the “vulnerability” of owning and wanting to improve together is very attractive in a partner. And I guarantee if you said “no I don’t accept and I’m out of here” they would be fixing it or hiding it once in the dating pool again.


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## Diana7

As I have got older I have got easier to please and more easy going. Or maybe its being married for 14 years to the most easy going easy to please laid back Aussie ever. Its nice to be more content and not bother about the things that so many others worry about, and I also understand that in marriage we need to love and accept each other as we are and not try and change each other into something we are not. 

So the list you write isn't really an issue, and is in fact very generalised and too over simplified.


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## Girl_power

It’s all about unmet expectations. And we form these expectations early on in life. And there SHOULD be some expectations in relationships.


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## Hiner112

When the wife announced she was leaving, I started to do a lot of introspection and reading about causes and solutions of the situation I was in. The preponderance of opinion could be summed up as "If you do everything your wife says (and thinks) you should do, everything will be wonderful because she will automatically know what will make you happy and will do it". There are lots of negative implications in all of it. The husband is lazy and inconsiderate while the wife is empathetic and diligent. The husband doesn't listen and the wife carries the family on her back. She's selfless and he's selfish. 

Almost none of it could be applied to an involved father. It also didn't allow for fallibility in the wives. That's especially unfair for the women (too much pressure).


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## TJW

duplicated post


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## TJW

Girl_power said:


> It’s all about unmet expectations. And we form these expectations early on in life.


Yes. But women are allowed to have unrealistic expectations. They want to stay home with the kids, while living in a house that THREE incomes wouldn't support, and have a husband who doesn't really need to work, but who can devote 90% of his waking life to "doing things with the family" and "helping around the house". 

And, women are allowed to cite the above expectations as a prerequisite to sexual attraction to their husband, and as a VALID REASON why they are allowed to act like a pandering b___h wolf in heat at a rock concert. 

After all, these paragons of irresistible male pulchritude are so grateful for each and every one of them, and will be right there to wipe up snot as soon as they step off their entertainer coaches.


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## Numb26

father_of_2 said:


> I think this is embodied in the representation of men on TV, especially in sitcoms and commercials, as useless oafs who (despite having a high paying job that puts a roof over their family's heads) can't seem to tie his shoes correctly or is only interested in watching football, has no interest in the kids, etc. But the women are there to tell him what to wear, where to be, and when he needs to lose some weight.


Which is why I don't watch TV or movies anymore.


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## TJW

father_of_2 said:


> useless oafs


Isn't it amazing how good a provider a bumbling fool is ?


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## Diana7

In marriage its also very helpful to have God involved, because when I pray about being a better wife, God answers and sometimes challenges me on things that I should or shouldn't be doing. Not comfortable for me at all sometimes, but His aim is to keep marriages strong and after all I did ask.:surprise:


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## Girl_power

TJW said:


> Yes. But women are allowed to have unrealistic expectations. They want to stay home with the kids, while living in a house that THREE incomes wouldn't support, and have a husband who doesn't really need to work, but who can devote 90% of his waking life to "doing things with the family" and "helping around the house".
> 
> And, women are allowed to cite the above expectations as a prerequisite to sexual attraction to their husband, and as a VALID REASON why they are allowed to act like a pandering b___h wolf in heat at a rock concert.
> 
> After all, these paragons of irresistible male pulchritude are so grateful for each and every one of them, and will be right there to wipe up snot as soon as they step off their entertainer coaches.




I understand what your saying. Yea that’s bull crap. But that’s just not my experience at all. My experience is I work just as much outside the home, and way more inside the home. That the man feels entitled to sit down and relax and decompress after a stressful day of work and not help out around the house. And then when he does help, he expects a big thank you and appreciation like he cured cancer. 
And then they turn it into this... nothing is ever good enough, you expect perfection blah blah blah, and all I can say is I don’t expect a gold medal when I take out the trash. I just do it.


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## Girl_power

Another thing I noticed... is that some men are attracted to a certain type of women that I can spot a mile away that they are high maintenance, no work ethic, and have a certain expectation. Then they are surprised when their lives turn into what it does. 

And I don’t think there is anything wrong with women like this. And to be honest I think they make it clear how they want it to be. Some women just want to be a trophy wife and it can work out really well for the family. Some women are of cultures where women don’t work, and that’s a mans job. The problem is when a man wants the trophy wife type of wife, then have an expectation that she is going to work hard outside the home, maintain the home and kids, while looking like models.


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## Girl_power

My friend who is a nurse, has an expectation of getting married, having 3-4 kids and staying home, and possibly home schooling. She told her boyfriend (now husband) this. And now they are expecting their first child. So she told him... we have to start talking about me going part time. 
Some people can see this as a problem and it not being fair. I think that it’s up to her husband to lay down the law and know if this is a possible arrangement at the time or not. Because if it’s not possible, he has to say that’s not possible at this time, we will need your income to x,y,z etc. it’s all about communications, and being in the same team. If the goal is for them to be finically comfortable and her stay home they need to have a plan together and a budget.


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## Hiner112

Girl_power said:


> I understand what your saying. Yea that’s bull crap. But that’s just not my experience at all. My experience is I work just as much outside the home, and way more inside the home. That the man feels entitled to sit down and relax and decompress after a stressful day of work and not help out around the house. And then when he does help, he expects a big thank you and appreciation like he cured cancer.
> And then they turn it into this... nothing is ever good enough, you expect perfection blah blah blah, and all I can say is I don’t expect a gold medal when I take out the trash. I just do it.


It probably makes me an Ahole but things like this comfort and amuse me. I'm not laughing at you but at me and life in general. When the kids were younger and I got home from work, I usually got to stop doing chores when it was time to go to sleep. I generally didn't sleep that much. She was a stay at home mom. When the kids were in elementary school I could sometimes sit for half an hour while they did their own baths (unless I was still cleaning up from supper or they wanted help). She worked part time. I get the impression that my effort wouldn't have been thankless in other situations. In the end it didn't matter. It didn't improve relations at home. It didn't stop the divorce.


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## aaarghdub

Girl_power said:


> I understand what your saying. Yea that’s bull crap. But that’s just not my experience at all. My experience is I work just as much outside the home, and way more inside the home. That the man feels entitled to sit down and relax and decompress after a stressful day of work and not help out around the house. And then when he does help, he expects a big thank you and appreciation like he cured cancer.
> And then they turn it into this... nothing is ever good enough, you expect perfection blah blah blah, and all I can say is I don’t expect a gold medal when I take out the trash. I just do it.




I agree that men need a little “cave time” after work but this is just selfishness. I travel 10-13 days a month and even though I’m beat when I get back I jump right back in... dishes, laundry, kids, etc.


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## Girl_power

aaarghdub said:


> I agree that men need a little “cave time” after work but this is just selfishness. I travel 10-13 days a month and even though I’m beat when I get back I jump right back in... dishes, laundry, kids, etc.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




I think people like us... who work hard are surprised by who lazy and entitled some people are in relationships. And this is an all gender issue. 

In my experience people think they do so much and aren’t appreciated. I think that, my boyfriend thinks that, and lots of couples think that.


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## Mr The Other

Girl_power said:


> I understand what your saying. Yea that’s bull crap. But that’s just not my experience at all. My experience is I work just as much outside the home, and way more inside the home. That the man feels entitled to sit down and relax and decompress after a stressful day of work and not help out around the house. And then when he does help, he expects a big thank you and appreciation like he cured cancer.
> And then they turn it into this... nothing is ever good enough, you expect perfection blah blah blah, and all I can say is I don’t expect a gold medal when I take out the trash. I just do it.


That very much depends on the generation and the place. I would say it is not the case in the UK, Scandinavia or much of the USA. It is in other parts of the USA and other parts of Europe.

When I first lived in Belgium, I assumed that it was similar to the UK. The women spoke about how hopeless men were about the house, how they could not trust them to cook a simple meal and clean up, how the men acted like it was a special favour if they cleaned. Women in the UK said the same things, but it was a talking thing.

On a second date, I cooked a girl a quick dinner before we left cleaning as I went. She looked at this with amazement, whereas in the UK people took it for granted. I realised Belgium was actually like that rather than just words.


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## Mr The Other

aaarghdub said:


> I agree that men need a little “cave time” after work but this is just selfishness. I travel 10-13 days a month and even though I’m beat when I get back I jump right back in... dishes, laundry, kids, etc.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I do wonder if we are that different. I am sure if I had a wife who came home after a long day at work to be met by me having a long list of complaints, it woud be similar. 

My wife is very welcoming, gives a hug and asks. That really means the need for cave time is alleviated.


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## Mr The Other

TJW said:


> Yes. But women are allowed to have unrealistic expectations. They want to stay home with the kids, while living in a house that THREE incomes wouldn't support, and have a husband who doesn't really need to work, but who can devote 90% of his waking life to "doing things with the family" and "helping around the house".
> 
> And, women are allowed to cite the above expectations as a prerequisite to sexual attraction to their husband, and as a VALID REASON why they are allowed to act like a pandering b___h wolf in heat at a rock concert.
> 
> After all, these paragons of irresistible male pulchritude are so grateful for each and every one of them, and will be right there to wipe up snot as soon as they step off their entertainer coaches.


Blimey! You have had some rough experiences.


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## Mr The Other

TJW said:


> Yes. But women are allowed to have unrealistic expectations. They want to stay home with the kids, while living in a house that THREE incomes wouldn't support, and have a husband who doesn't really need to work, but who can devote 90% of his waking life to "doing things with the family" and "helping around the house".
> 
> And, women are allowed to cite the above expectations as a prerequisite to sexual attraction to their husband, and as a VALID REASON why they are allowed to act like a pandering b___h wolf in heat at a rock concert.
> 
> After all, these paragons of irresistible male pulchritude are so grateful for each and every one of them, and will be right there to wipe up snot as soon as they step off their entertainer coaches.


While you overstate things in comparison to my own experience, I think women and men do have differing levels of expectations compared to the realisitic average. 

There is a good reason for that. Historically, women have had far more at risk when entering a relationship. It was prudent to be relatively unimpressed. I do believe that the large majoirty meeting the average man would think him a little poorer, shorter, fatter, and uglier than average. I used to think men typically treated women extremely well, on the basis of what more women took for granted in relationships and that the man would always put them first.

I actually think I misread it. If your perception was turned down, so that all women around you seemed worse compared to the average, it would prevent you from entering into relationships as easily. It would also leave you unhappier, wondering where all the decent women are, while women would be complaining that you are very fussy.

This is all a gross generalisation.


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## Girl_power

Mr The Other said:


> That very much depends on the generation and the place. I would say it is not the case in the UK, Scandinavia or much of the USA. It is in other parts of the USA and other parts of Europe.
> 
> When I first lived in Belgium, I assumed that it was similar to the UK. The women spoke about how hopeless men were about the house, how they could not trust them to cook a simple meal and clean up, how the men acted like it was a special favour if they cleaned. Women in the UK said the same things, but it was a talking thing.
> 
> On a second date, I cooked a girl a quick dinner before we left cleaning as I went. She looked at this with amazement, whereas in the UK people took it for granted. I realised Belgium was actually like that rather than just words.




I think that some men just think it’s the women’s job to maintain the home, but they are willing to help so they need to be told or asked and when they do something they expect like a big thank you. Men that view the house maintenance as their job (as well as their significant other), they are more apt to taking initiative, and doing what they see needs to be done and they don’t need to be told. 

My negative experience is probably due to the fact that my significant others have never lived by themselves.


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## Mr The Other

Girl_power said:


> I think that some men just think it’s the women’s job to maintain the home, but they are willing to help so they need to be told or asked and when they do something they expect like a big thank you. Men that view the house maintenance as they job (as well as their significant other), they are more apt to taking initiative, and doing what they see needs to be done and they don’t need to be told.
> 
> My negative experience is probably due to the fact that my significant others have never lived by themselves.


I can absolutely believe you. I would not have believed you when I had only lived in the UK, but I have travelled round now and seen it actually be like that for younger (i.e. middle aged and below) generations. 

There is such large amounts of dishonesty that it is hard to judge.

Seeing Scandinavia, where women would be far more straight with how much that did, and going to other coutries where women had the responsibility changed my perspective. 

I think the term "emotional labour' is badly used. In France, it refers to the expectation and responsibilty for hte work and who it reflects badly on if it is not done. In the UK, it typically means work that she feels like she did, but the man actually did. The USA is much larger and seems to have both, but typically be more moderate (I think).


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## Girl_power

All I know is that when I come home from work I am exhausted. It’s fine when I am single and living by myself because I can relax after work, and cook or pick at food as I want. I never make full on meals. Also because I don’t make full on meals I don’t have a mess to clean up so my home is always clean. 
Living alone is easy and not hard to maintain. But when adding someone to my house like my boyfriend, jt instantly makes my life way harder and easily doubles my “work”.


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## aaarghdub

Girl_power said:


> I think that some men just think it’s the women’s job to maintain the home, but they are willing to help so they need to be told or asked and when they do something they expect like a big thank you. Men that view the house maintenance as their job (as well as their significant other), they are more apt to taking initiative, and doing what they see needs to be done and they don’t need to be told.
> 
> My negative experience is probably due to the fact that my significant others have never lived by themselves.



I think the trend will only get worse as helicopter parents wait hand and foot on their millennial boys cleaning up after them even when they’re teenagers.

Real men don’t see housework as a woman-thing and have no problem cleaning up after themselves. Otherwise, you’re basically saying I don’t care about the time and effort you have to expend on my selfishness. If my wife goes to work before I leave on a 3-day work trip, I don’t leave her with a sink full of dishes and house full of dirt clothes... it’s so inconsiderate and a slap in the face.


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## Mr The Other

aaarghdub said:


> I think the trend will only get worse as helicopter parents wait hand and foot on their millennial boys cleaning up after them even when they’re teenagers.
> 
> Real men don’t see housework as a woman-thing and have no problem cleaning up after themselves. Otherwise, you’re basically saying I don’t care about the time and effort you have to expend on my selfishness. If my wife goes to work before I leave on a 3-day work trip, I don’t leave her with a sink full of dishes and house full of dirt clothes... it’s so inconsiderate and a slap in the face.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I worked in a coffee shop, where if anyone came in looking for work, we were to give them a form. Unless it was a British woman, in which case we were to say there were no vacancies. The basis being that very few of the British women had the experience of basic cooking from scratch or cleaning up after themselves.

But, I am sure those women would be on here complaining about how they did everything, i.e. emotional labour.


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## Mr The Other

Girl_power said:


> All I know is that when I come home from work I am exhausted. It’s fine when I am single and living by myself because I can relax after work, and cook or pick at food as I want. I never make full on meals. Also because I don’t make full on meals I don’t have a mess to clean up so my home is always clean.
> Living alone is easy and not hard to maintain. But when adding someone to my house like my boyfriend, jt instantly makes my life way harder and easily doubles my “work”.


Which part of thw world do you live in?


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## moulinyx

aaarghdub said:


> Curious if I’m the only one who thinks there is a double-standard between the sexes on the phrase spelled out in the title? Do you think people use that phrase as a way to dodge culpability in something they should own but choose not to. I also feel like woman get a pass but guys do not because women remind us their under such societal pressure (which I do believe exists BTW).
> 
> Specifically if the woman says “it’s never good enough for you” the guy has to back down and respect that “that’s how she is” and he’s ass for bringing it up. If he says it, it’s a flimsy excuse and he’s not owning it. It’s almost as if she’s using the phrase to deflect any criticism whatsoever.
> 
> If the following “are “not good enough” he has to own it and fix it:
> - work ethic, salary, standard of living
> - being more romantic
> - doing more with kids
> - zoning out or not engaging more
> - not listening
> - eating and fitness habits
> - developing stronger religious faith
> - watching less sports
> - noticing other women/avoiding porn
> - desiring enthusiastic sex
> - dressing like a slob
> - not wanting to go out on a date
> - housework or home maintenance equity
> - drinking, smoking less
> - speaking her love languages
> - supporting her passions / hobbies
> 
> If the following are not good enough he needs to accept her for who she is and quit try to change her:
> - spending more than they make
> - house, car, finances in general
> - unenthusiastic sex or (wanting too much sex)
> - dressing down 24/7
> - poor eating habits
> - listening to respond not take in
> - obsession with social media and Pinterest
> - dating the kids rather than dating your spouse
> - minimal interest his passions
> - addressing medical issues
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This whole list sounds like an incompatible couple or people who are "checked-out". I shouldn't HAVE to tell my husband to be interested in the kids, coax him into dates, or beg for help around the house we both work to support. My husband also shouldn't think its okay for me to listen to respond rather than hear him, nor should he feel like I am disinterested in his passions or that I withhold physical love. No relationship is perfect but I HATE the "its never good enough for you" line. That is the ultimate dismissive jab to avoid addressing a problem.


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## Mr The Other

moulinyx said:


> This whole list sounds like an incompatible couple or people who are "checked-out". I shouldn't HAVE to tell my husband to be interested in the kids, coax him into dates, or beg for help around the house we both work to support. My husband also shouldn't think its okay for me to listen to respond rather than hear him, nor should he feel like I am disinterested in his passions or that I withhold physical love. No relationship is perfect but I HATE the "its never good enough for you" line. That is the ultimate dismissive jab to avoid addressing a problem.


From what you write, it sounds terrible.

I will offer experience from the male side, that may or may not have any relevence. 

I can see that I had relationships with women whose commitments was passive. I learned that "I love you" meant "I am going to rely on you for my happiness". So, how they felt was everything.

I could work hard on everything, but they believe on some level that their contribution had only to be complaining about what they were unhappy about. We see this with anglo-saxon emotional labour, where a man physically does a job, but they woman feels like she did it. If I were to read a lady such as that post, it would be her complaining that the man did not appreciate her and that she had to do everything - which she did not do physically, but did emotionally. The man on the other hand would be sick of being complained at by a woman who did nothing.


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## Girl_power

Mr The Other said:


> Which part of thw world do you live in?




US.


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## Girl_power

Mr The Other said:


> From what you write, it sounds terrible.
> 
> 
> 
> I will offer experience from the male side, that may or may not have any relevence.
> 
> 
> 
> I can see that I had relationships with women whose commitments was passive. I learned that "I love you" meant "I am going to rely on you for my happiness". So, how they felt was everything.
> 
> 
> 
> I could work hard on everything, but they believe on some level that their contribution had only to be complaining about what they were unhappy about. We see this with anglo-saxon emotional labour, where a man physically does a job, but they woman feels like she did it. If I were to read a lady such as that post, it would be her complaining that the man did not appreciate her and that she had to do everything - which she did not do physically, but did emotionally. The man on the other hand would be sick of being complained at by a woman who did nothing.




I disagree with this. 

But I also want to add that usually the women “runs” the house. And I’m not saying she does everything, but there is so more going on mentally than men appreciate. 
So this was my experience as well as my moms... we need to keep everything together and organized. We know the birthdays and send the cards, and the doctors appointments, and the kids activities etc. 

I posted this NYT article before and it’s relevant to this topic. But for example... a mother spent hours trying to figure out what to do with the kids when school was finished bc both her and her husband worked. She was looking into different camps or child care type of stuff and it was stressing her out. Then when the day came the husband was like “oh I didn’t realize the kids were out of school”. And although she didn’t physical do anything, a lot went into figuring things out. And that’s how women “run” the house and it’s not appreciated by the men.



https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/04/opinion/sunday/men-parenting.html


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## Girl_power

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/04/opinion/sunday/men-parenting.html


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## Mr The Other

Girl_power said:


> US.


I was in the USA got to know a lady who had been in two previous relationships, both of whom were slobs. I say this, not because of what she told me, but how she acted. She was slightly surprised I could actually cook and did do, and she assumed I had a maid as my flat was clean (as if a single man in his own flat would struggle to do so).

We watched this, and I laughed at it:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=SqQgDwA0BNU&usg=AOvVaw0xJgg4V4Vcu0Z777zS3zIv
She was surpised, as I was able to look after myself like a grown up. But, it is just a trope. She had thought it was real and I think you do it. Had she compared nots wiht my ex-wife who did not left a finger, there would be no difference. Both said they did everything, but that place never got clean because you know how it is with men!

I have know idea whom you resemble more, but there is great variety. Women are no more selfless do-it-allers around the house than men are physically brave and deeply respected by their friends for their wit.


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## Mr The Other

Girl_power said:


> US.


I was in the USA got to know a lady who had been in two previous relationships, both of whom were slobs. I say this, not because of what she told me, but how she acted. She was slightly surprised I could actually cook and did do, and she assumed I had a maid as my flat was clean (as if a single man in his own flat would struggle to do so).

We watched this, and I laughed at it:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=SqQgDwA0BNU&usg=AOvVaw0xJgg4V4Vcu0Z777zS3zIv
She was surpised, as I was able to look after myself like a grown up. But, it is just a trope. She had thought it was real and I think you do it. Had she compared nots wiht my ex-wife who did not left a finger, there would be no difference. Both said they did everything, but that place never got clean because you know how it is with men!

I have know idea whom you resemble more, but there is great variety. Women are no more selfless do-it-allers and all men slobs around the house than men are physically brave and deeply respected by their friends for their wit.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson

aaarghdub said:


> Curious if I’m the only one who thinks there is a double-standard between the sexes on the phrase spelled out in the title? Do you think people use that phrase as a way to dodge culpability in something they should own but choose not to. I also feel like woman get a pass but guys do not because women remind us their under such societal pressure (which I do believe exists BTW).
> 
> Specifically if the woman says “it’s never good enough for you” the guy has to back down and respect that “that’s how she is” and he’s ass for bringing it up. If he says it, it’s a flimsy excuse and he’s not owning it. It’s almost as if she’s using the phrase to deflect any criticism whatsoever.
> 
> If the following “are “not good enough” he has to own it and fix it:
> - work ethic, salary, standard of living
> - being more romantic
> - doing more with kids
> - zoning out or not engaging more
> - not listening
> - eating and fitness habits
> - developing stronger religious faith
> - watching less sports
> - noticing other women/avoiding porn
> - desiring enthusiastic sex
> - dressing like a slob
> - not wanting to go out on a date
> - housework or home maintenance equity
> - drinking, smoking less
> - speaking her love languages
> - supporting her passions / hobbies
> 
> If the following are not good enough he needs to accept her for who she is and quit try to change her:
> - spending more than they make
> - house, car, finances in general
> - unenthusiastic sex or (wanting too much sex)
> - dressing down 24/7
> - poor eating habits
> - listening to respond not take in
> - obsession with social media and Pinterest
> - dating the kids rather than dating your spouse
> - minimal interest his passions
> - addressing medical issues
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, haven't read many posts, but this is a pot stirrer!! :surprise:


----------



## Tilted 1

Girl_power said:


> My experience is I work just as much outside the home, and way more inside the home. That the man feels entitled to sit down and relax and decompress after a stressful day of work and not help out around the house. And then when he does help, he expects a big thank you and appreciation like he cured cancer.
> 
> it’s all about communications, and being in the same team.


So, then l have a question what is wrong with giving him the big thank you? And because you think communication is is important it kinda shows that you are both weak in this area. 

Possibly look at it this way, you both get beat down by the world daily. And when your at work and you do a good job at something doesn't it feel good when someone acknowledges that to you? Well what does it hurt if you BOTH treat each other in like kindness tell him when you do things at your house like you said on another post. He comes to your house eats you both have sex. Then you sleep. 

If you explain to him you will gladly give him praise for taking out the trash or something else, but you also expect the same in return or better yet go to his house. After he gets home and let him do what you do. Then go home to your home. To see where that will take you. It may strengthen the relationship you desire. Or give you the answer to what you are seeking in a potential spouse.


----------



## StillSearching

There's no double standard here.....
Men and woman are different, always will be.

I say quit complaining. 
Learn more about what women want and how to act to get it.
Geez...If you don't know by now I'll tell you a secret....
Men are idealistic and women are opportunistic. 
It's nature. It's about survival.


----------



## Girl_power

Tilted 1 said:


> So, then l have a question what is wrong with giving him the big thank you? And because you think communication is is important it kinda shows that you are both weak in this area.
> 
> 
> 
> Possibly look at it this way, you both get beat down by the world daily. And when your at work and you do a good job at something doesn't it feel good when someone acknowledges that to you? Well what does it hurt if you BOTH treat each other in like kindness tell him when you do things at your house like you said on another post. He comes to your house eats you both have sex. Then you sleep.
> 
> 
> 
> If you explain to him you will gladly give him praise for taking out the trash or something else, but you also expect the same in return or better yet go to his house. After he gets home and let him do what you do. Then go home to your home. To see where that will take you. It may strengthen the relationship you desire. Or give you the answer to what you are seeking in a potential spouse.




I do say thank you sometimes. Not every time. It’s nice to hear a thank you, but you shouldn’t need it. 
Life does beat us down. I want a partner to help me not make my life harder. And I’m not saying he does that. I just feel like I need a little more, and he just doesn’t get it. Like it’s not natural for him and he needs me to spell everything out and that bothers me. 

Go to his home? He lives with his parents... so there you go. 

I don’t know if I chose the wrong men or if I’m the type of person who will never be happy. I don’t think my expectations are too high but who knows.


----------



## Tilted 1

Girl_power said:


> I do say thank you sometimes. Not every time. It’s nice to hear a thank you, but you shouldn’t need it.
> Life does beat us down. I want a partner to help me not make my life harder. And I’m not saying he does that. I just feel like I need a little more, and he just doesn’t get it. Like it’s not natural for him and he needs me to spell everything out and that bothers me.
> 
> Go to his home? He lives with his parents... so there you go.
> 
> I don’t know if I chose the wrong men or if I’m the type of person who will never be happy. I don’t think my expectations are too high but who knows.


This then stands out, it's no wonder why you expect more from him. But your just being his mommy. (Sorry Hugs))) and he's playing a game. I suspect that your picker is off and you are the mature one. Dump him and find another who can give you what you deserve.


----------



## Tilted 1

It shows that you rescue those who have massive short comings. In it's self is not all that bad, but a self sufficient man is worthy of you. And nothing less, what in your life caused this in you? Maybe your parents did a very good job and instilling Independence and a great value of being a successful. 

That is great that you are this way. But only seem to sell yourself short in what you settle for in a man. Don't do it unless you want to be the mommy to them all. It's no wonder why he is the way he is he looks at you kinda like a mommy. And you scold me trying to keep him in line. It's not fair to you.


----------



## Girl_power

Tilted 1 said:


> This then stands out, it's no wonder why you expect more from him. But your just being his mommy. (Sorry Hugs))) and he's playing a game. I suspect that your picker is off and you are the mature one. Dump him and find another who can give you what you deserve.




Ah I’m not ready to give up on this relationship. What can I do to get him to man up?!


----------



## Tilted 1

Girl_power said:


> Ah I’m not ready to give up on this relationship. What can I do to get him to man up?!


Nothing you can do, sorry there you go again trying to fix him. He should fix himself.


----------



## Mr The Other

Girl_power said:


> Ah I’m not ready to give up on this relationship. What can I do to get him to man up?!


The large majority of men are perfectly capable of looking after themselves and contribute to the household. Most women take that for granted. If that is not what you want, that is fine, but it is your choice.


----------



## TJW

moulinyx said:


> I HATE the "its never good enough for you" line. That is the ultimate dismissive jab to avoid addressing a problem.


Avoidance may indeed be a legitimate posture, if the guy knows that even herculean effort on his part will not result in approval, or that the needed change is not within his realm of achievement. He is a 100-grand guy, and his wife only gives accolades to megabuck guys. He is a "plan b beta provider" and her attentions are only given to alphas.


----------



## aaarghdub

TJW said:


> Avoidance may indeed be a legitimate posture, if the guy knows that even herculean effort on his part will not result in approval, or that the needed change is not within his realm of achievement. He is a 100-grand guy, and his wife only gives accolades to megabuck guys. He is a "plan b beta provider" and her attentions are only given to alphas.



How is applying the “golden rule” that hard? Girl_Power is not asking him to “split the atom” here but to have some consideration and situational awareness about her place. 

Based on what her boyfriend has done, all things being equal, he would leave her to take care of the trash since he’s a guest. To him, it’s like he’s going out of his way to do it. WTH? No loving SO thinks that way. You do it because it needs to be done.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## Girl_power

aaarghdub said:


> How is applying the “golden rule” that hard? Girl_Power is not asking him to “split the atom” here but to have some consideration and situational awareness about her place.
> 
> Based on what her boyfriend has done, all things being equal, he would leave her to take care of the trash since he’s a guest. To him, it’s like he’s going out of his way to do it. WTH? No loving SO thinks that way. You do it because it needs to be done.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk




So I think that he thinks he doesn’t live with me so why would he help, I also think he thinks he does help (he does help a little but it’s not consistent), he also thinks that I demand perfection. And another thing is, he is working so much lately. That’s things from his perspective. 

He’s an example. I like in an apartment and you have to take the trash out..: like outside. So I tie the trash and leave it by the door for hopefully him to take it, If not I will take it. No big deal. He never takes it out without me asking him specifically, so I usually just take it out myself. Also, once I asked him bc my shoulder was bother me... I was like can you please take out the trash in the morning when you leave for work. And his response was no, bc the trash bin is in the back and he leaves in the front, and bc he’s cold out, and bc he dresses up for work and he doesn’t like to do it in the morning, so he said I’ll do it when I come home. But that doesn’t work for me bc 1. He works late, and 2. I don’t want my small apartment to stink. So I took it out myself and I haven’t asked him since.


----------



## I shouldnthave

Honestly - I can't say I have experienced any of this double standard you describe in my marriage. Perhaps its because I never had "unrealistic expectations". I had never imagined getting married, I never day dreamed about what my future and my husband would be like. I tend to live very much in the moment - I met someone who I was super compatible with, and we have simply made life together work. 

If the following “are “not good enough” he has to own it and fix it:

- work ethic, salary, standard of living *- I earn much more than he does, that thats okay! I have an aptitude for the type of work that brings in a nice income, I don't mind in the slightest sharing my "riches" with him. He is dedicated to his work, and works hard. I have never nagged him or made him feel lesser for his chosen career. 
*

- being more romantic *- He does a great job here, more romantic than I am. If anything he makes me feel like I am dropping the ball in this area. *

- doing more with kids *- We are happily child free - one of the reasons why we are so compatible. *

- zoning out or not engaging more *- Okay I do call him out on his phone use on occasion, but its not a huge issue. *

- not listening *- See above*

- eating and fitness habits *- Nope, I don't nag about it. I simply prepare us healthy food, and support his active hobbies. Need a new bike? Buy it! Want to spend a weekend going out of town with your buddies mountain biking? GO! Have fun! *

- developing stronger religious faith *- Atheists - once again compatible and simple. *

- watching less sports *- Football season means I get to spend more time horseback riding without feeling guilty being gone so long. Win win! *

- noticing other women/avoiding porn -* Never had a problem with either, he doesn't ogle women and I don't care about his reasonable level of porn use*

- desiring enthusiastic sex - *We both love sex, no issue there*

- dressing like a slob *- on a rare occasion I will ask that he wear a different shirt *

- not wanting to go out on a date -* He's GREAT about planning dates. Again like the romance, I feel like I don't pull my weight in this area. Last week it was a concert and a beautiful city view hotel room - so romantic! *

- housework or home maintenance equity -* Okay I do the vast majority of the housework, and honestly many many years ago I decided it wasn't something worth fighting over. I thank and acknowledge him for stuff he does around the house. He knows I do more and usually jumps up and helps if he sees me cleaning etc. *

- drinking, smoking less -* not an issue. *

- speaking her love languages - *my number #1 is physical touch - he knows it and meets my needs. *

- supporting her passions / hobbies - *He gets a gold star here, puts up with all the time and money I spend on my horse. *

If the following are not good enough he needs to accept her for who she is and quit try to change her:

- spending more than they make - *Nope, he is more of a spender than I am. If anything, he encourages me to buy things for myself instead of my usual squirreling away of money.* 

- house, car, finances in general-* Not even sure what this is supposed to mean. I earn more, and he bought me a nicer car because he was sick of me driving a cheap one. *

- unenthusiastic sex or (wanting too much sex) - *I have a higher drive than he does - not a problem.*

- dressing down 24/7 - *I dress up daily for work, and weekly for dates, and have lingerie for our time together. *

- poor eating habits - *I do stress eat. But neither of us nag each other bout our eating habits, plus I weight a bit less than when he met me 19 years ago. *

- listening to respond not take in - * Huh? *

- obsession with social media and Pinterest - *Nope, I don't even have Pinterest. *

- dating the kids rather than dating your spouse *- I love our child free life. *

- minimal interest his passions - *we both support each others passions. *

- addressing medical issues - Hasn't been a issue - *I have had to nurse him through a few knee surgeries though.* 



Numb26 said:


> Which is why I don't watch TV or movies anymore.


You know, I do not either, never have been much of a TV or movies person - and I would say its definitely an net positive for my life. I am not affected much by the media or this keeping up with the Jones crap.


----------



## Mr The Other

If you believe what you read on here, most male posters a great lovers and physically brave and most female posters are selfless homemakers.


----------



## Girl_power

Mr The Other said:


> If you believe what you read on here, most male posters a great lovers and physically brave and most female posters are selfless homemakers.




We’re all perfect on TAM.


----------



## moulinyx

Mr The Other said:


> From what you write, it sounds terrible.
> 
> I will offer experience from the male side, that may or may not have any relevence.
> 
> I can see that I had relationships with women whose commitments was passive. I learned that "I love you" meant "I am going to rely on you for my happiness". So, how they felt was everything.
> 
> I could work hard on everything, but they believe on some level that their contribution had only to be complaining about what they were unhappy about. We see this with anglo-saxon emotional labour, where a man physically does a job, but they woman feels like she did it. If I were to read a lady such as that post, it would be her complaining that the man did not appreciate her and that she had to do everything - which she did not do physically, but did emotionally. The man on the other hand would be sick of being complained at by a woman who did nothing.


Hah, I think my post was confusing. I just meant those things from either spouse is not acceptable! I do not have to beg my husband to play with his son 0


----------



## aine

I do not agree with this, each couple is different and in many instances, the female is not good enough. If she doesn't fix it, then it results in withdrawal, stonewalling, unenthusiastic engagement with the family life, affairs, etc etc. 
There has been double standards for centuries, he has an affair, (oh poor guy, not being taken care of at home), she has an affair, (she is a ****).
She must work outside the home and in the home; he works outside the home and comes home to drink beer or go play golf 
She works in an office in same position, probably does more work but gets 80% of the males pay (wage differential due to gender only)
On and on.........

To my mind it is about time the males got to feel what it's like to live with double standards, women have been living with this for centuries, so sorry I'll get out my violin


----------



## Mr The Other

aine said:


> I do not agree with this, each couple is different and in many instances, the female is not good enough. If she doesn't fix it, then it results in withdrawal, stonewalling, unenthusiastic engagement with the family life, affairs, etc etc.
> There has been double standards for centuries, he has an affair, (oh poor guy, not being taken care of at home), she has an affair, (she is a ****).
> She must work outside the home and in the home; he works outside the home and comes home to drink beer or go play golf
> She works in an office in same position, probably does more work but gets 80% of the males pay (wage differential due to gender only)
> On and on.........
> 
> To my mind it is about time the males got to feel what it's like to live with double standards, women have been living with this for centuries, so sorry I'll get out my violin


I am a little unsure of your post. You state each couple of different, then appear to say how they are all the same.

"If she doesn't fix it, then it results in withdrawal, stonewalling, unenthusiastic engagement with the family life, affairs, etc etc." - really, that is normal? Frankly, the way things are, I expect to be the active emotional support and the woman typically provides a person to love to inspire more.

"She must work outside the home and in the home; he works outside the home and comes home to drink beer or go play golf" - that is fantasy stuff. Really. I have seen culture where that is true, but they are rare. I grew up in th eUK and it is not true there in actual doing, but it is the what women say and men also play along with the narrative. But, clearly, it is not actually true. In Scandinavia, my partners said I did plenty round the house, in the UK, they said I did nothing. It was not the contribution that changed.

"There has been double standards for centuries, he has an affair, (oh poor guy, not being taken care of at home), she has an affair, (she is a ****)." - Again, not true. We see plenty of cases on here where the woman does not contribure and the man is trying to figure out what he is doing wrong. It used to be women were like furniture in a relationship, and the common will was the husband's will (so it would be poor him). Now, we have only moved half the way, and the man is seen more like the adult, responsible for the actions of the woman, so he is a hero if his marriage is good and a schmuck if his marriage is bad. It is still based on a sexist premise, but one that many feminists will fight hard to protect while also appealing to the Red Pill crowd.

"She works in an office in same position, probably does more work but gets 80% of the males pay (wage differential due to gender only)" - in which case men would never get a job. Why pay then 25% more. How about this, compare two people at a meeting. The first stands up, throws tough questions at the presenter and exposes flaws. Suggests a mitigation plan and leads straight off. The other speaks to the presenter afterwards, finds out the consensous in the office, then facilitiates a refined plan. The second is probably better, but the first (more masculine) approach fits in with our current image of an upcoming executive. It is feminity rather than women that is sidelined. I am in science as I am a working class man, and I had to earn money to prove myself and start a family. Had I been a woman, I am far more likely to go into the arts (which I am better at) and be earning about 50% of what I earn. There is sexism there, but it is the reverse of why it takes women a longer time getting ready to go out.

"On and on........." The commonality, that we see in films from America, is that women are seen as passive and judged by how they are treated. Women are heroic when they act in a masculine manner while still being attractive while passive to the male gaze. We saw in Game of Thrones how the screen writers could not write a feminine heroic character without her having to actmore like an action hero.


----------



## Girl_power

aine said:


> I do not agree with this, each couple is different and in many instances, the female is not good enough. If she doesn't fix it, then it results in withdrawal, stonewalling, unenthusiastic engagement with the family life, affairs, etc etc.
> 
> There has been double standards for centuries, he has an affair, (oh poor guy, not being taken care of at home), she has an affair, (she is a ****).
> 
> She must work outside the home and in the home; he works outside the home and comes home to drink beer or go play golf
> 
> She works in an office in same position, probably does more work but gets 80% of the males pay (wage differential due to gender only)
> 
> On and on.........
> 
> 
> 
> To my mind it is about time the males got to feel what it's like to live with double standards, women have been living with this for centuries, so sorry I'll get out my violin




I agree with this.


----------



## Girl_power

This is not gender specific it’s person specific. On my biased experience, the man is not pulling his weight and I do think he isn’t doing enough. In others personal experience it’s the opposite.

But sometimes people aren’t doing enough. Some people try to do bare minimum. Some people really aren’t good enough.


----------



## TJW

Girl_power said:


> So I think that he thinks he doesn’t live with me so why would he help


From my perspective, I would think the same. I don't live there. It is therefore not my "place" to "help". I have no duty to help. 



Girl_power said:


> I also think he thinks he does help (he does help a little but it’s not consistent)


Again, my thinking would be precisely the same. I don't live there. It is not my duty nor my responsibility to carry out household chores. I do it as
a "gift", a "favor", a "donation". I have no onus of "consistency". I give when I choose to give, and to the degree that I choose to give.



Girl_power said:


> he also thinks that I demand perfection.


Perspective is REALITY. What's true in HIS mind is governing his relationship to you.

My wife complains that "...I shouldn't have to ask....". But, see, I can never do anything "good enough", "soon enough", "fast enough", or "enough".
Completion of tasks, for me, gets me a vicious slap across my face and a good scolding, as if I were a child. She is never grateful for anything. The only "right" way to do anything is HER way.... My ideas, my upbringing, the teaching of my parents, my considered opinion, are all valueless. 

Her "thank you for doing that" is a bald-face LIE from the pit of hell. It's a recording..... she rolls the tape, and it plays out her mouth.... makes me sick.... I wish she would just say nothing....

This is the reason I wait to be "asked". 

I have to "pay" a "price" for "helping"..... therefore, I have concluded that I will "pay" as little as possible.....


----------



## Mr The Other

Girl_power said:


> So I think that he thinks he doesn’t live with me so why would he help, I also think he thinks he does help (he does help a little but it’s not consistent), he also thinks that I demand perfection. And another thing is, he is working so much lately. That’s things from his perspective.
> 
> He’s an example. I like in an apartment and you have to take the trash out..: like outside. So I tie the trash and leave it by the door for hopefully him to take it, If not I will take it. No big deal. He never takes it out without me asking him specifically, so I usually just take it out myself. Also, once I asked him bc my shoulder was bother me... I was like can you please take out the trash in the morning when you leave for work. And his response was no, bc the trash bin is in the back and he leaves in the front, and bc he’s cold out, and bc he dresses up for work and he doesn’t like to do it in the morning, so he said I’ll do it when I come home. But that doesn’t work for me bc 1. He works late, and 2. I don’t want my small apartment to stink. So I took it out myself and I haven’t asked him since.


In the demanding perfection thing, there are two arguments that annoy me.
- When she insists that washing the dishes before using them or after is equally clean and tidy. Yet, actually chooses to use a clean one instead. In this case, she was a victim when challenged and dumped and I was demanding perfection.
- "I cannot reach his impossible standards! So there is no point in contributing anything" - if it were a genuine problem, the solution would be he does the basics of cleaning and you finish off to your standards. I recall my ex-wife using that arguement, but we did MC in Denmark and the MC tore that to pieces (very politely).


----------



## Mr The Other

Girl_power said:


> I agree with this.


Really? Because, it is another form of the "the other sex are rubbish" argument, that people do to avoid looking at themselves or giving responsibility to their partners.


----------



## Girl_power

Mr The Other said:


> In the demanding perfection thing, there are two arguments that annoy me.
> 
> - When she insists that washing the dishes before using them or after is equally clean and tidy. Yet, actually chooses to use a clean one instead. In this case, she was a victim when challenged and dumped and I was demanding perfection.
> 
> - "I cannot reach his impossible standards! So there is no point in contributing anything" - if it were a genuine problem, the solution would be he does the basics of cleaning and you finish off to your standards. I recall my ex-wife using that arguement, but we did MC in Denmark and the MC tore that to pieces (very politely).




First off... I really appreciate that your on this form because I like getting perspective from people that are able to put themselves in my boyfriends position so I can learn. I may not necessarily agree with you, but they doesn’t mean I don’t take in what your saying.

As far as your wife goes I totally get her perspective, I hate asking and I don’t think I have to. It’s a bad thing when someone checks out and waits to be asked because they feel like nothing is ever good enough. I don’t want this to be my future. But at the same time, I want my man to step up more. 

I don’t want a mom/son relationship. This is what I fear. I don’t want to tell my man what to do, I don’t want to scold him, I don’t want to feel like I am taking care of him, I don’t want him to fear making me mad. I don’t want to be mean mommy. There will be a lot of resentment on both sides and I honestly think that’s why people eventually get divorced or cheat. 

I think you and I can learn a lot from each other.


----------



## Tilted 1

Girl_power said:


> So I think that he thinks he doesn’t live with me so why would he help, I also think he thinks he does help (he does help a little but it’s not consistent), he also thinks that I demand perfection. And another thing is, he is working so much lately. That’s things from his perspective.
> .


This is exactly when a person who cares deeply or loves another goes above and beyond, of what is expected. And when a person works excessive hours. And then does without being asked proves to the other you are so important to me l do this for you. 

Your not really demanding perfection, what you really seeking is confirmation that your mate puts you first. 

But when his excuse is he doesn't live with you, is a wimps way out. In a conversation you have in the future ask him if he take the trash out there. I bet not. He the type of using people so if he can get away with it he will. A man of low to no integrity. But you still bending over too much for him.


----------



## Girl_power

Mr The Other said:


> Really? Because, it is another form of the "the other sex are rubbish" argument, that people do to avoid looking at themselves or giving responsibility to their partners.




I am all about looking at myself. That’s why I listed his perspective and I am able to take it in. I do understand where my boyfriend is coming from. That’s the thing.... I can argue his point of view, and I can argue my point of view.


----------



## Girl_power

Tilted 1 said:


> This is exactly when a person who cares deeply or loves another goes above and beyond, of what is expected. And when a person works excessive hours. And then does without being asked proves to the other you are so important to me l do this for you.
> 
> 
> 
> Your not really demanding perfection, what you really seeking is confirmation that your mate puts you first.
> 
> 
> 
> But when his excuse is he doesn't live with you, is a wimps way out. In a conversation you have in the future ask him if he take the trash out there. I bet not. He the type of using people so if he can get away with it he will. A man of low to no integrity. But you still bending over too much for him.




I agree with you. He’s a little spoiled and entitled and I am not helping the situation.


----------



## Mr The Other

Girl_power said:


> I am all about looking at myself. That’s why I listed his perspective and I am able to take it in. I do understand where my boyfriend is coming from. That’s the thing.... I can argue his point of view, and I can argue my point of view.


Then well done! (sorry for patronising). 

I do get that impression of you I remember on my original thread on here, I wrote a post as to how I thought my wife would describe the situation. Many posters on here could not grasp the concept and a few assumed I must have been lying once they heard a different story from my "wife"!


----------



## Girl_power

I am going to Miami for a work conference next week and my work is Paying for most of it. I’m in lecture till 12 everyday then I’m free. I told my boyfriend to come, that it will be a free vacation for him except he has to pay for his flight. He said yes. 

A month before the trip I have to remind him to buy his plane tickets. (Tickets get more and more expensive). He doesn’t buy them. I remind him multiple times a week. He’s stressed at work. I tell him that it’s really important to me that he comes, because we both really need a vacation and we need time together. He says he will. His work said he can go, but will have to video in for a couple meetings. I kept reminding him to buy his tickets. He does less than a week before. Then yesterday he realizes he put in the wrong date, and he’s pissed off. And now the cheapest tickets are like $600. He is so angry and mad and I am just biting my tongue bc all I want to say is... I told you to buy them earlier, and also your complaining about a free vacation!! 

So anyway.... I’m not sure he is going to go. He is so stressed about it. I leave this Sunday (2 days). Last night when we were in bed, he was saying how stressed out he was, and I nicely said... well I told you to buy them earlier. And something about how he should feel lucky it’s a free vacation but for some reason he doesn’t think that way. Anyway... needless to say he wasn’t happy about my response as he went to bed without talking. 

I told him he doesn’t have to go if he doesn’t want to. But honestly, if he doesn’t go this might be a breaking point for us.


----------



## Tilted 1

Girl_power said:


> I am going to Miami for a work conference next week and my work is Paying for most of it. I’m in lecture till 12 everyday then I’m free. I told my boyfriend to come, that it will be a free vacation for him except he has to pay for his flight. He said yes.
> 
> A month before the trip I have to remind him to buy his plane tickets. (Tickets get more and more expensive). He doesn’t buy them. I remind him multiple times a week. He’s stressed at work. I tell him that it’s really important to me that he comes, because we both really need a vacation and we need time together. He says he will. His work said he can go, but will have to video in for a couple meetings. I kept reminding him to buy his tickets. He does less than a week before. Then yesterday he realizes he put in the wrong date, and he’s pissed off. And now the cheapest tickets are like $600. He is so angry and mad and I am just biting my tongue bc all I want to say is... I told you to buy them earlier, and also your complaining about a free vacation!!
> 
> So anyway.... I’m not sure he is going to go. He is so stressed about it. I leave this Sunday (2 days). Last night when we were in bed, he was saying how stressed out he was, and I nicely said... well I told you to buy them earlier. And something about how he should feel lucky it’s a free vacation but for some reason he doesn’t think that way. Anyway... needless to say he wasn’t happy about my response as he went to bed without talking.
> 
> I told him he doesn’t have to go if he doesn’t want to. But honestly, if he doesn’t go this might be a breaking point for us.


Honestly, that may be the best, he's definitely not that into you sorry. He just expects everyone to fix things for him. Yes entitled is correct.


----------



## aaarghdub

Girl_power said:


> I told him he doesn’t have to go if he doesn’t want to. But honestly, if he doesn’t go this might be a breaking point for us.



Boy... seen this plenty of times before. Handled like a teenager:

1) Doesn’t want to go but doesn’t want the fight so says “sure”
2) Delay
3) Delay some more hopes you don’t bring it up
4) Start looking for reasons “out of my control” so you can’t go
5) Find reason where partner would let you out of it without ill feelings.
5) Enjoy not going, still be the good guy
6) Invalidate partner’s frustration and they need to “let it go” 
7) Problem solved

Sure hope he surprises you down there though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Girl_power

Tilted 1 said:


> Honestly, that may be the best, he's definitely not that into you sorry. He just expects everyone to fix things for him. Yes entitled is correct.




I actually think he wants to marry me. But he’s clearly lazy and he thinks he has me in the bag so to speak.


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## Tilted 1

Girl_power said:


> I actually think he wants to marry me. But he’s clearly lazy and he thinks he has me in the bag so to speak.


Wow, really? You hear the advice given here to spouse's who have and hold resentment until it builds so much it becomes unbearable. Is this what you really want? 

Some where in your mind do you think your that special wife who can change her husband? You can't and won't, change him spare yourself the time and pain lost and move on. Your story about the plane tickets, say volumes.


----------



## Girl_power

Tilted 1 said:


> Wow, really? You hear the advice given here to spouse's who have and hold resentment until it builds so much it becomes unbearable. Is this what you really want?
> 
> 
> 
> Some where in your mind do you think your that special wife who can change her husband? You can't and won't, change him spare yourself the time and pain lost and move on. Your story about the plane tickets, say volumes.




I’m not saying that. I’m saying I think he wants to marry me, he’s asked about what kind of engagement rings I like etc. 

This whole Miami situation has got me fuming. So things will be addressed and we shall see what happens to us. Right now I’m focusing on having a relaxing vacation because I deserve it.


----------



## Tilted 1

Girl_power said:


> I’m not saying that. I’m saying I think he wants to marry me, he’s asked about what kind of engagement rings I like etc.
> 
> This whole Miami situation has got me fuming. So things will be addressed and we shall see what happens to us. Right now I’m focusing on having a relaxing vacation because I deserve it.


Just don't forget YOU DESERVE IT!! 

And l am not just talking about the vacation.

but just because he asked what you like, still doesn't mean Diddley,


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## Tilted 1

Girl_power, this is just like this thread title states, is their a double standard. Why is it required that a woman should eat crap to accept the man. And l ask Girl_power why does she believe historically it must be the woman who would have to do this. 

Help me understand this Girl_power? Please explain.


----------



## Girl_power

Tilted 1 said:


> Girl_power, this is just like this thread title states, is their a double standard. Why is it required that a woman should eat crap to accept the man. And l ask Girl_power why does she believe historically it must be the woman who would have to do this.
> 
> 
> 
> Help me understand this Girl_power? Please explain.




It’s just my upbringing and my personal experience that men are just like that. My dad was like this. Even though my mom stayed home and never worked, my dad never lifted a finger. He has no idea how to take care of himself. He went from his moms house to married. Today my dad is retired and still doesn’t know how to cook, clean, do laundry, run the dishwasher, or use the microwave. If my mom didn’t cook, my dad would eat McDonald’s everyday. So that’s what I was use to. My brothers are she same way. I was just raised not to expect much from men. 

Don’t get me wrong, my dad has a good heart. But he is clueless. He doesn’t realize how disrespectful his behavior is to my mom. He doesn’t see it that way. But my dad has to be told what to do always. He’s never helped my mom with any housework, ever. 


So when I am with someone who is lazy, I kind of think about the men in my family, their not bad people, and they have good sides to them. And I rationalize it. 
Whenever I call my mom and vent about it she always says... what do you expect that’s the way men are. And basically gives off the vibe that I’m expecting too much from men and basically that’s how all men are and I’ll be single forever if I don’t put up with it.


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## TJW

Girl_power said:


> I’m expecting too much from men and basically that’s how all men are and I’ll be single forever if I don’t put up with it.


Your mom says this.... but what I want to know is......do you BELIEVE it ?

In your mom's day, it's likely that most men were just like the one she married. People tend to do what they saw modeled in their family-of-origin.
Your dad did what your grandpa did. Your mom did what your grandma did.

And now, you are looking to marry a man who is like your dad ? And, you are doing what your mom did ?

.....I think you do believe it.....

And, I base my thought on this statement:



Girl_power said:


> I kind of think about the men in my family, their not bad people, and they have good sides to them. And I rationalize it.


So, would you say that you feel "safe" with this man ?



Girl_power said:


> I told him he doesn’t have to go if he doesn’t want to. But honestly, if he doesn’t go this might be a breaking point for us.


Dishonest.

Dishonest with him. But worse, it's dishonest to yourself. He should know where the "deal-breakers" lie..... now, in your own words, you are "fuming" about this trip.

You should have told him when the subject came up that you expect him to go with you, and if he doesn't, it's a deal-breaker. Because, that is THE TRUTH. "doesn't have to go if he doesn't want to" is NOT THE TRUTH.

Go ahead and rationalize some more. You will be 50 and still single. Or, worse, you will get married and it will end in a divorce. Or, worse yet, you will "fume" to yourself, "put up with it" so that you aren't single (but you would be a hell of a lot happier if you were).


----------



## Girl_power

TJW said:


> Your mom says this.... but what I want to know is......do you BELIEVE it ?
> 
> 
> 
> In your mom's day, it's likely that most men were just like the one she married. People tend to do what they saw modeled in their family-of-origin.
> 
> Your dad did what your grandpa did. Your mom did what your grandma did.
> 
> 
> 
> And now, you are looking to marry a man who is like your dad ? And, you are doing what your mom did ?
> 
> 
> 
> .....I think you do believe it.....




I don’t believe it. Men should help out around the house. 

I am in a situation where I don’t live with my boyfriend, so it’s different. My boyfriend says men should do housework. He was raised with a strong mom who worked full time and his dad stay home with the kids.


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## RebuildingMe

I disagree. I would not clean my girlfriend’s apartment if I didn’t live there. Sure, I’d help out if asked, but if was expected of me, that wouldn’t work for me personally. I’ve got my own house to tend to. I would expect girlfriend to clean my house either, feed my dog or take out my trash.


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## Girl_power

TJW said:


> Your mom says this.... but what I want to know is......do you BELIEVE it ?
> 
> In your mom's day, it's likely that most men were just like the one she married. People tend to do what they saw modeled in their family-of-origin.
> Your dad did what your grandpa did. Your mom did what your grandma did.
> 
> And now, you are looking to marry a man who is like your dad ? And, you are doing what your mom did ?
> 
> .....I think you do believe it.....
> 
> And, I base my thought on this statement:
> 
> 
> 
> So, would you say that you feel "safe" with this man ?
> 
> 
> 
> Dishonest.
> 
> Dishonest with him. But worse, it's dishonest to yourself. He should know where the "deal-breakers" lie..... now, in your own words, you are "fuming" about this trip.
> 
> You should have told him when the subject came up that you expect him to go with you, and if he doesn't, it's a deal-breaker. Because, that is THE TRUTH. "doesn't have to go if he doesn't want to" is NOT THE TRUTH.
> 
> Go ahead and rationalize some more. You will be 50 and still single. Or, worse, you will get married and it will end in a divorce. Or, worse yet, you will "fume" to yourself, "put up with it" so that you aren't single (but you would be a hell of a lot happier if you were).




I told him a month ago that this is important to me. I made it clear. 

I told him he doesn’t have to go because I am not going to force him to take a vacation with me. You can’t force people to treat you right. He has free will. I told him it’s important to me. I made it clear from my end. The rest is up to him. I give him rope and he will do what he wants with it. 

If he knows I’m fuming, he will buy the tickets. I don’t want him to buy the tickets because I’m upset. I want him to buy the tickets because he knows it’s impotent to me. That distinction is critical. I am not trying to make him do what I want him to do, I can easily do that. I want to see what he does on his own, because it will tell me what I need to know about him.


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## aine

Mr The Other said:


> I am a little unsure of your post. You state each couple of different, then appear to say how they are all the same.
> 
> "If she doesn't fix it, then it results in withdrawal, stonewalling, unenthusiastic engagement with the family life, affairs, etc etc." - really, that is normal? Frankly, the way things are, I expect to be the active emotional support and the woman typically provides a person to love to inspire more.
> 
> "She must work outside the home and in the home; he works outside the home and comes home to drink beer or go play golf" - that is fantasy stuff. Really. I have seen culture where that is true, but they are rare. I grew up in th eUK and it is not true there in actual doing, but it is the what women say and men also play along with the narrative. But, clearly, it is not actually true. In Scandinavia, my partners said I did plenty round the house, in the UK, they said I did nothing. It was not the contribution that changed.
> 
> "There has been double standards for centuries, he has an affair, (oh poor guy, not being taken care of at home), she has an affair, (she is a ****)." - Again, not true. We see plenty of cases on here where the woman does not contribure and the man is trying to figure out what he is doing wrong. It used to be women were like furniture in a relationship, and the common will was the husband's will (so it would be poor him). Now, we have only moved half the way, and the man is seen more like the adult, responsible for the actions of the woman, so he is a hero if his marriage is good and a schmuck if his marriage is bad. It is still based on a sexist premise, but one that many feminists will fight hard to protect while also appealing to the Red Pill crowd.
> 
> "She works in an office in same position, probably does more work but gets 80% of the males pay (wage differential due to gender only)" - in which case men would never get a job. Why pay then 25% more. How about this, compare two people at a meeting. The first stands up, throws tough questions at the presenter and exposes flaws. Suggests a mitigation plan and leads straight off. The other speaks to the presenter afterwards, finds out the consensous in the office, then facilitiates a refined plan. The second is probably better, but the first (more masculine) approach fits in with our current image of an upcoming executive. It is feminity rather than women that is sidelined. I am in science as I am a working class man, and I had to earn money to prove myself and start a family. Had I been a woman, I am far more likely to go into the arts (which I am better at) and be earning about 50% of what I earn. There is sexism there, but it is the reverse of why it takes women a longer time getting ready to go out.
> 
> "On and on........." The commonality, that we see in films from America, is that women are seen as passive and judged by how they are treated. Women are heroic when they act in a masculine manner while still being attractive while passive to the male gaze. We saw in Game of Thrones how the screen writers could not write a feminine heroic character without her having to actmore like an action hero.



Since you are making generalisations, I thought I would too..........

TAM is hardly representative of the general population either to makhe the inferences you do.........

There is a plethora of academic research on the gendered division of housework
e.g. Lachance-Grzela, M. and Bouchard, G., 2010. Why do women do the lion’s share of housework? A decade of research. Sex roles, 63(11-12), pp.767-780.

OMG, you are saying that a woman in the same industry should not get paid the same amount as a man even if she is doing the same work as a man, same role, same responsibilties. 

I don't know what planet you live on but even in progressive countries like the UK we have wage differentials due to gender, men simply get paid more that a woman in the same role, it is discrimination, e.g. https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...-pay-women-paid-less-motherhood-a8856121.html This is happening now!

I am a qualified accountant, I aced all my professional exams even when my male peers didn't, I started work on pay less than my male peers, why? In my current role as a Director, I get paid less, though I bring in more numbers, so you tell me what has femininity got to do with it, it is an issue, one which the European governments recognise. 
Your thinking sounds like something out of the 1950's. My education cost the same as my male counterparts, I work probably harder, so you are telling me because a man has more testosterone he ought to be paid more? I am not asking for more, I am asking for equal pay.


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## Mr The Other

aine said:


> Since you are making generalisations, I thought I would too..........
> 
> TAM is hardly representative of the general population either to makhe the inferences you do.........
> 
> There is a plethora of academic research on the gendered division of housework
> e.g. Lachance-Grzela, M. and Bouchard, G., 2010. Why do women do the lion’s share of housework? A decade of research. Sex roles, 63(11-12), pp.767-780.
> 
> OMG, you are saying that a woman in the same industry should not get paid the same amount as a man even if she is doing the same work as a man, same role, same responsibilties.
> 
> I don't know what planet you live on but even in progressive countries like the UK we have wage differentials due to gender, men simply get paid more that a woman in the same role, it is discrimination, e.g. https://www.independent.co.uk/life-...-pay-women-paid-less-motherhood-a8856121.html This is happening now!
> 
> I am a qualified accountant, I aced all my professional exams even when my male peers didn't, I started work on pay less than my male peers, why? In my current role as a Director, I get paid less, though I bring in more numbers, so you tell me what has femininity got to do with it, it is an issue, one which the European governments recognise.
> Your thinking sounds like something out of the 1950's. My education cost the same as my male counterparts, I work probably harder, so you are telling me because a man has more testosterone he ought to be paid more? I am not asking for more, I am asking for equal pay.


Well done to you. 

I actually reread my post and am not sure how you got that impression. 

We see a correlation. We do not know the cause. Certainly, people have an image of what a top paid person should be and that is posh whilte and male. Those things are easy to measure. There will also be a way of acting, I would suggest femininity is discriminated against, but that is more difficult to measure than which sex people are.


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## aaarghdub

aine said:


> Your thinking sounds like something out of the 1950's. My education cost the same as my male counterparts, I work probably harder, so you are telling me because a man has more testosterone he ought to be paid more? I am not asking for more, I am asking for equal pay.



Then file an EEOC complaint and/or higher a lawyer. If you know they are making more than the discrimination will come out in the discovery process.



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## Mr The Other

aaarghdub said:


> Then file an EEOC complaint and/or higher a lawyer. If you know they are making more than the discrimination will come out in the discovery process.


To be fair, she was replying to things I did not actually write. So what she was replying to sounds horrendous.


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## Girl_power

Anddd my boyfriend and I broke up. He didn’t give me a choice.


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## RebuildingMe

Girl_power said:


> Anddd my boyfriend and I broke up. He didn’t give me a choice.


Sorry to hear that. He didn’t sound good for what you are looking for.


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## aaarghdub

Girl_power said:


> Anddd my boyfriend and I broke up. He didn’t give me a choice.




Sorry to hear this.  Hope you can find a man-friend instead of a boyfriend next time. 


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## TJW

Yes, I'm sorry, too. Hopefully, you'll find someone who is more attentive and "in tune" with what's important to you.


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## Tilted 1

Girl_power said:


> Anddd my boyfriend and I broke up. He didn’t give me a choice.


Really this is a good thing no sorrow here, but knowing you will get the someone who will treat you better and show you happiness. Remember if this dude was similar to your other bf. It's time for the change. This is what he will be like don't give in.

https://giphy.com/gifs/relationships-teen-vogue-relationship-tips-Rp46IaXfcQuY


For you the top gif Girl_power


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## MAJDEATH

I think there is a huge influence in media (in the US anyway). Men in relationships are portrayed as buffoons, idiots, lazy, whiny *****es who can't accomplish anything for themselves, esecially if they are straight/white/Christian. It's no wonder the women believe that they have to be a mother to their man/child.

My W and I worked hard to teach our son to be self-sufficient. One day his future wife will thank us.


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## farsidejunky

GP, somewhere near your wants (maybe not there yet...but near) is 'high maintenance'.

Please understand this is only my perspective when I say this to you. I think it important because I am generally the take charge person in my relationship in most things.

I have little tolerance for high maintenance. When my wife drifts into that area, I will normally make things happen for her. 

When she plants herself firmly with both feet in the high maintenance zone, I normally find something better to do. 

Again, you may not actually be there yet...but you are near it. YMMV.

As for the tickets...who wouldn't want to go to Miami? I don't understand that at all, unless it is related to money. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## farsidejunky

Girl_power said:


> Anddd my boyfriend and I broke up. He didn’t give me a choice.


I read this after my last post to you.

I'm sorry for your break up...and my lousy timing. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Mr The Other

MAJDEATH said:


> I think there is a huge influence in media (in the US anyway). Men in relationships are portrayed as buffoons, idiots, lazy, whiny *****es who can't accomplish anything for themselves, esecially if they are straight/white/Christian. It's no wonder the women believe that they have to be a mother to their man/child.
> 
> My W and I worked hard to teach our son to be self-sufficient. One day his future wife will thank us.


It is a huge problem. 

Then, both men and women play along with it. 

So, women who end up with bums end up thinking it is normal. 

The dirty secret is that most men are perfectly capable of housework, most do their share etc.


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## Rrr

cheapie said:


> Both men and women should own their behaviors and be committed to working on the things that erode the strength of a relationship.


It saddens me to see my wife failing to work on anything, save her upping the hours she spends on Netflix.
And nap-time.
It pains so much because we have a daughter.
So I feel alone
in marriage.
But in order to avoid trauma for the daughter (own parents divorced when young)
holding on
trying not to hold onto resentment

while Wife snores away


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## aaarghdub

I think part of the resentment comes from the statement “well I’ve always been like this” or “you just have to accept me for who I am”

OK but let’s be honest... everyone spends emotional capital hiding or downplaying their baggage when dating and it applies to both sexes. And it’s incredibly dishonest to make efforts to hide it and then once married say “we’ll that’s how I am and always have been.” Dating... blowjobs all the time... get married...that’s disgusting and I only did it because we were dating. How could you not be a little resentful? My wife hid the emotional dumpster fire that her family was and I have just have to accept that last how she is but have to address issues from my past.

Let’s be honest if a guy hid a porn addiction he can’t later say “well you have to accept I like porn.” Same for “audition sex” knowing that she has sex issues from my her past and even broke up with other guys because of them.

My point is it’s much more acceptable for a woman to hide things during courtship and say “that’s how I am” than it is for a man. She’s not expected to address that stuff but he is.


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## aine

MAJDEATH said:


> I think there is a huge influence in media (in the US anyway). Men in relationships are portrayed as buffoons, idiots, lazy, whiny *****es who can't accomplish anything for themselves, esecially if they are straight/white/Christian. It's no wonder the women believe that they have to be a mother to their man/child.
> 
> My W and I worked hard to teach our son to be self-sufficient. One day his future wife will thank us.


I agree with this and it has an impact on boys growing up too. If you have read Bringing Up Boys by Dr James Dobson, he addresses some of these issues and the impacts. 
I read this when my boy was little in an effort to ensure he was himself. However, it was my husband who thwarted me in many ways, my boy was very sensitive and it would make my husband angry when he cried. 
So I wonder who is right and who is wrong. I do not like children to be snowflakes, the world is definitely harsh and it is our job to ensure they are ready for it. To me there is nothing stronger than a man who cries, shows his emotion and then moves on. My husband appears to be tough, or pretends to be but is actually very weak emotionally.


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## Mr The Other

MAJDEATH said:


> I think there is a huge influence in media (in the US anyway). Men in relationships are portrayed as buffoons, idiots, lazy, whiny *****es who can't accomplish anything for themselves, esecially if they are straight/white/Christian. It's no wonder the women believe that they have to be a mother to their man/child.
> 
> My W and I worked hard to teach our son to be self-sufficient. One day his future wife will thank us.


I do remember being a kid in the UK in the 1980s. There was a huge effort to stop boys thinking they were cleverer than girls, and let the girls know that they were bright too.

Unfortuntely, this was aimed at the wrong generation as we did not have this prejudice in the first place. It results in lots of kids just thinking girls were brighter than boys and probably rather damaging for sensitive boys.


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## Tilted 1

Mr The Other said:


> I do remember being a kid in the UK in the 1980s. There was a huge effort to stop boys thinking they were cleverer than girls, and let the girls know that they were bright too.
> 
> Unfortuntely, this was aimed at the wrong generation as we did not have this prejudice in the first place. It results in lots of kids just thinking girls were brighter than boys and probably rather damaging for sensitive boys.


I'll say this it is still the parents who, alter the stigmatism of society. Can change them against what is said in anytime that they are in. Regardless if they believe that they we're living a good life.


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## aine

Girl_power said:


> Another thing I noticed... is that some men are attracted to a certain type of women that I can spot a mile away that they are high maintenance, no work ethic, and have a certain expectation. Then they are surprised when their lives turn into what it does.
> 
> And I don’t think there is anything wrong with women like this. And to be honest I think they make it clear how they want it to be. Some women just want to be a trophy wife and it can work out really well for the family. Some women are of cultures where women don’t work, and that’s a mans job. The problem is when a man wants the trophy wife type of wife, then have an expectation that she is going to work hard outside the home, maintain the home and kids, while looking like models.


The real problem ( excuse me being crude) is that two heads are making the decisions in choosing a wife. The little head wants the sexy beauty, high maintenance etc, whereas the big head wants the hard worker, home organiser, etc. Therein lies the conflict. That is why arranged marriages in the olden days worked 😅 only one head was involved.


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## *Deidre*

Maybe you just married the wrong woman, OP. I do believe that there are double standards definitely, but the laundry list in your first post sounds like your wife blatantly disrespects you. Instead of broad brushing it as ''all or most women are like this after marriage,'' maybe start asking your wife to reflect on her actions, and how they affect you. We teach people how to treat us. Your wife might need a refresher course.


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## DTO

Of course it exists. There's still a sense of "the husband should take care of his wife" or "happy wife, happy life" in some circles. As long as that exists, you'll always have the double-standard where he gas to strive but she can coast along.


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## BlueWoman

I am seeing a lot of different definitions of "emotional labor". And I think it's a bit of misnomer. It's not quite emotional, but instead, that being non-stop planning, negotiating, and scheduling. Sure my ex would clean up. But only when asked and often he "forgot" and needed to be reminded. This of course was interpreted as nagging. But it was a setup. I learned asking nicely and then letting him get to it in his time, meant that it never got done. In fact, my only behavior that was rewarded was getting angry with him. And quite frankly it was exhausting. I was so tired. I am sure he felt like I was never going to consider him "enough." And to be honest, it was because he wasn't. 

Because yeah, he might have taken out the trash...when I asked him...5 times.. as the trash is overflowing and I am cleaning the kitchen while he reads his comics. Yeah, I think I worked harder than him.


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## aaarghdub

BlueWoman said:


> I was so tired. I am sure he felt like I was never going to consider him "enough." And to be honest, it was because he wasn't.



This is the tough thing... having someone tell you “well it’s never good enough for you” is a set up. Because “never” means if you respond that it’s not good enough they are a perpetual victim of your “bullying.” If you accept the premise they’ve won. So what really is going on?

Just gonna put this out there: part of the frustration is your dating persona vs your real persona. If you went out of your way to act unlike your normal self you’re misleading your partner. If you were a neat freak while dating and then turned into a slob, can you be honest and admit you’re a slob and you didn’t what to chase them away with your slovenliness? It’s not uncommon for people to diet, starve themselves; workout like crazy when dating but at their core just really aren’t fit or healthy eaters. They’ll quit eating right and working out because they’re over the finish line and can be who they really are. Or take a person that is sexually aggressive or overly romantic while dating than five years after marriage tells you they just aren’t that sexual and have never been. 

I think some are responding to the wrong issue. It’s not that it’s never/not good enough...it’s that it’ll be never good enough because they were not presenting who they really are before marriage. 


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## BlueWoman

I don’t really think he presented himself as different when we were dating. I think that we both just bought into the idea that as the woman of the relationship I was supposed to be doing the emotional labor in the relationship. I didn’t realize that eventually I would resent doing all that extra work. I was the classic enabler, and when I finally stopped enabling (because 1. Didn’t want to enable and 2. Just couldn’t do it anymore) he wasn’t able to or didn’t want to fill in the gap.


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## Mr The Other

BlueWoman said:


> I don’t really think he presented himself as different when we were dating. I think that we both just bought into the idea that as the woman of the relationship I was supposed to be doing the emotional labor in the relationship. I didn’t realize that eventually I would resent doing all that extra work. I was the classic enabler, and when I finally stopped enabling (because 1. Didn’t want to enable and 2. Just couldn’t do it anymore) he wasn’t able to or didn’t want to fill in the gap.


Emotional labour can mean a few things.
In France, in means taking on responsibility for getting things done. In the UK, it means if she did nothing but feels hard working. In the USA, it can mean either or taking primary responsibility for the emotional well being.
It always makes these conversations difficult, as all the experiences will differ. I am from the UK, when I saw women talk about "emotional labour", I took it to mean lazy and pround of it. It was an eye opener to travel.


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## Mr The Other

TJW said:


> Avoidance may indeed be a legitimate posture, if the guy knows that even herculean effort on his part will not result in approval, or that the needed change is not within his realm of achievement. He is a 100-grand guy, and his wife only gives accolades to megabuck guys. He is a "plan b beta provider" and her attentions are only given to alphas.


Yes, it is all circumstancial. It is also rarely a useful phrase.
If the man is responsible for her happiness, then it makes sense if she is unhappy. He cannot force her to be happy after all.
But, it can end up being used by the man when he insists that them being happy is her responsibility.


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## BlueWoman

Mr The Other said:


> Emotional labour can mean a few things.
> In France, in means taking on responsibility for getting things done. In the UK, it means if she did nothing but feels hard working. In the USA, it can mean either or taking primary responsibility for the emotional well being.
> It always makes these conversations difficult, as all the experiences will differ. I am from the UK, when I saw women talk about "emotional labour", I took it to mean lazy and pround of it. It was an eye opener to travel.



For me it means mostly taking on responsibility for getting things done, but I also took on primary responsibility for the emotional well being of our relationship. Definitely wasn’t / am not lazy, and I would never be proud of it. And we are from the US.


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## Mr The Other

BlueWoman said:


> For me it means mostly taking on responsibility for getting things done, but I also took on primary responsibility for the emotional well being of our relationship. Definitely wasn’t / am not lazy, and I would never be proud of it. And we are from the US.


I remember moving to Belgium and when women there spoke of coming home from work to be in charge of the housework, I assumed it was in the same way that British women did. But, they were actually physically doing it and taking the responsibility. When the "Why Didn't you Ask" cartoon was doing the rounds, it was hard to explain the difference in situation between women in France/Belgium and the UK.

My current wife described herself as an empath, and it was an immediate red flag! It turns out that rather than being so wrapped up in her own feelings that she was oblivious to other peoples's she was actually very aware of other peoples' feeling. 

There terms get abused, that I can get over touchy! Sorry!


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## Mr The Other

BlueWoman said:


> I am seeing a lot of different definitions of "emotional labor". And I think it's a bit of misnomer. It's not quite emotional, but instead, that being non-stop planning, negotiating, and scheduling. Sure my ex would clean up. But only when asked and often he "forgot" and needed to be reminded. This of course was interpreted as nagging. But it was a setup. I learned asking nicely and then letting him get to it in his time, meant that it never got done. In fact, my only behavior that was rewarded was getting angry with him. And quite frankly it was exhausting. I was so tired. I am sure he felt like I was never going to consider him "enough." And to be honest, it was because he wasn't.
> 
> Because yeah, he might have taken out the trash...when I asked him...5 times.. as the trash is overflowing and I am cleaning the kitchen while he reads his comics. Yeah, I think I worked harder than him.


I think it is a worthless term and possibly dangerous. 

I am a middle-aged UK man and when I read this, I am not sure how to read it. But, I have travelled and seen how things are different between nations and generations. In the UK, women would always say what you wrote, in Belgium they would do the same and in Scandinavia, they would be very varied. My shock in Belgium was that women really did take the responsibilities for domestic matters, even if they both worked. Meanwhile, my Danish girlfriend had to be warned not to say that I was not acting like a lazy tyrant, and there is not the same culture of lying about it. 

Having a partner like that is exhausting. That is emotional labour to my mind. Equally, going through treating traumatised people, or making brutal decisions is the same.

There is also the comparison to children with homework. One does it straight away on Friday, and enjoys the weekend, the second does not do it, has it not done all weekend and then has it not done on Monday. My personal experience with "emotional labor" is that is refers to the second. 

I was seeing a US woman once who said "When I was young I thought I was clean and tidy, then I left for college and found out my Mum was clean and tidy". I was actually impressed, as this was a rejection of the common concept of emotional labor and accepting responsibility instead.


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## Laurentium

If it's about doing housework, why would it be called "emotional"??


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## Livvie

aaarghdub said:


> I think part of the resentment comes from the statement “well I’ve always been like this” or “you just have to accept me for who I am”
> 
> OK but let’s be honest... everyone spends emotional capital hiding or downplaying their baggage when dating and it applies to both sexes. And it’s incredibly dishonest to make efforts to hide it and then once married say “we’ll that’s how I am and always have been.” Dating... blowjobs all the time... get married...that’s disgusting and I only did it because we were dating. How could you not be a little resentful? My wife hid the emotional dumpster fire that her family was and I have just have to accept that last how she is but have to address issues from my past.
> 
> Let’s be honest if a guy hid a porn addiction he can’t later say “well you have to accept I like porn.” Same for “audition sex” knowing that she has sex issues from my her past and even broke up with other guys because of them.
> 
> My point is it’s much more acceptable for a woman to hide things during courtship and say “that’s how I am” than it is for a man. She’s not expected to address that stuff but he is.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't agree with your assessment that it's "much more acceptable" for a woman to hide her flaws during courtship and then get a free pass as to working on them post marriage-- all the while continually criticizing her husband and demanding change and perfection. It's only acceptable if a man LETS HER get away with this! 

Men, why are you letting women get away with crap like that? Why are you letting these women of poor character dictate your relationship to this degree?

Are you that scared of losing the relationship, or of rocking the boat that you accept such an unhappy and sub par relationship partner and dynamic? 

I just don't get it.


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## NextTimeAround

Diana7 said:


> In marriage its also very helpful to have God involved, because when I pray about being a better wife, God answers and sometimes challenges me on things that I should or shouldn't be doing. Not comfortable for me at all sometimes, but His aim is to keep marriages strong and after all I did ask.:surprise:


What has God challeneged you to do? what were the words he used to communicate that to you?


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## farsidejunky

Livvie said:


> I don't agree with your assessment that it's "much more acceptable" for a woman to hide her flaws during courtship and then get a free pass as to working on them post marriage-- all the while continually criticizing her husband and demanding change and perfection. It's only acceptable if a man LETS HER get away with this!
> 
> Men, why are you letting women get away with crap like that? Why are you letting these women of poor character dictate your relationship to this degree?
> 
> Are you that scared of losing the relationship, or of rocking the boat that you accept such an unhappy and sub par relationship partner and dynamic?
> 
> I just don't get it.


QFT.

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