# EA or PA does the gender matter?



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

So this was a fascinating discussion I had with a female friend of mine yesterday.

Both of us previously cheated on she kept her WS I left mine. Both WS had physical affairs. So we are discussing why I didn't try and reconcile. I told her once my x wife screwed another person it was the ultimate betrayl and unforgivable completely. Her view was complete opposite.  Her husband had sex on a one night stand and had zero emotions involved just sex. She said the only reason she could forgive him was because it was only physical.

So we debate this for while and ask each other questions of course, I finally come to the conclusion that I am completely opposite. If I had caught my x prior to the physical affair in just the emotional affair would I have tried reconciliation? I just might have if for no other reasons than for the kids. No idea if it would have worked or not but I found myself thinking I would at least be open to the possibility of reconciliation vs not open at all if it was a physical affair.

My friends take is that this is the major difference between men and women. Men are less like to forgive a physical affair and women less likely to forgive an emotional affair. Fascinating and can't say I disagree. Anyone have any thoughts. Really no wrong answers since its a personal opinion on what you will tolerate and what you won't but curious is she is right about men placing more emphasis on the physical and women more on the emotional.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

This debate has come up several times over the years here. I tend to agree that in general, women have a more difficult time with an emotional betrayal and men have a more difficult time with a physical one. In my own case, my wife's betrayal was emotional, they never met IRL. We successfully reconciled several years ago. Had it gone physical, I don't believe I would have made it out of the gate to try and recover.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

The problem for me whether it's an EA or PA are the lies that cover it up. The more lies that I encounter, the more the relationship foundation will get chipped away.

So even an extended EA could make me want to dissolve the relationship.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

Among the many BS's I personaly know, the same characterization applies. 

I think the most telling are the responses of a BS who's been through both. A friend of mine dealt with multiple EA's, but kept trying. That is until she had a PA and he was instantly done. The reverse for a friend of my wife. She forgave a PA 5 years prior. An EA? Nope, they are divorcing now.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Wolf: As far as I'm concerned, if both of my cheating XW's had only committed EA's rather than their notorious PA's, it still would have taken a heartfelt confession on their parts, with explicit "play-by-play" details on their part, to even get me to remotely consider R.

In most instances, an EA is just as damaging and demeaning to a marriage as the PA is; regardless of which ever occurred, there is one very large common denominator present in both ~ deception! And that can possibly be worked through, greatly provided that you choose to, more especially in the event of an EA!

But I'm firmly with you on the question of a PA ~ if the other man has in any way planted his seed and penetrated my W, all with her express permission, then as far as I'm concerned, "school is out!" Absolutely no negotiating, other than for in a courtroom!*


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I have long said that an EA is way worse for a woman, and I mean this if she is the one having the EA. Because women tie in a lot of emotions to their feelings. And the heart doesn't forget things lightly. 

And an EA with a PA is the straight up machete slice and dice dagger cut. It doesn't get any worse than that, no matter who experiences it. Because you've got hearts and genitals together and that is a BAD combo.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

EA o or PA, it makes no difference to me. Disloyalty, deception, emotional connection with another person, and sexual contact, are all dealbreakers. Now, having said that, I'm not sure that a FUTURE reconciliation would be out of the question. Then the difference between an EA and a PA might have significantly more importance. In my case, I divorced immediately. I tried a later R but it didn't take, not because of the nature of my wife's affair, but because of my lack of feelings for her. Would I have felt different if she had only had an EA? I don't know.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

What most people here and elsewhere tend to dot recognize or even acknowledge is that a EA is a precursor to a PA, as it is barriers ( Long distance, availability) and time that get in the way from an EA going full bore PA. 

But like some others here have pointed out it is the amount od deceit one uses to sustain and nurture an EA that grades it's marital impact. Once it takes hold the marriage is destabilized to the point of no return if left unchallenged. The same methods used by cheaters during a PA is used during an EA. The same excuses, lies, gaslighting, increased aggression, rewriting of marital history, name it. 

But I will attest that an EA is far and away more difficult to fight or keep and eye on since an EA is in effect around the clock. They often think and feel for their AP's during every waking moment, including sex. You are the now the substitute for the fantasy, however form it may take. 

I do not think the impact of an EA is any less different than a PA to a man, we just put too much stock into the physical aspect of it, and again, we are too ignorant to the fact that had the opportunity arose the emotional cheater would have went all the way.


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## 'CuseGal (Feb 5, 2015)

I had what I realize now was probably an EA at one point, a few years into my marriage. I was only 23 and wouldn't have considered my behavior with the other man an affair of any sort. I'm honestly not sure the whole concept of the EA existed back in the 90s?
I had just found out my husband was cheating (first time but not the last) and somehow ended up dumping all over a male coworker who was 10 years older than me and was in the middle of a divorce because his wife had cheated on him while he was stationed overseas. Our relationship never progressed physically past my crying on his shoulder several times, but when my (now ex) husband found out, he acted like my behavior was a million times worse than the fact that he had been physically cheating and with more than one woman no less. He was more ready to break up over my sharing a close emotional relationship with another man than I was to break up over him screwing around with other women. 

Sad thing is, the ex and I were so co-dependent that even though this incident took place in 1997, we didn't split up until 2004, even though he continued cheating the entire time.


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## HarryDoyle (Jan 19, 2013)

I guess I go against the grain here. My WW affair(s) were strictly physical. And while this still bothers me two years removed, I've never had to deal with her having any real emotional connection with anyone else. As a guy I guess this was easier to make sense of in some weird way. Plus there was no emotional withdrawal on my WW's part since neither her or the POSOM want anything to do with each other, and haven't, since way before D-day. 

I have no idea really how I would have reacted if she had been "in love" with the other man still or still had feelings for him. It's hard enough to R in the first place without having to win back my WW. I've thought about it a lot and I still don't know what I would have done. Doesn't really matter anyway I guess, one more strike and she's out.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> *I have long said that an EA is way worse for a woman, *and I mean this if she is the one having the EA. Because women tie in a lot to emotions. And the heart doesn't forget things lightly.
> 
> And an EA with a PA is the straight up machete slice and dice dagger cut. It doesn't get any worse than that, no matter who experiences it. Because you've got hearts and genitals together and that is a BAD combo.


Because a lot of women get off on the idea that they can get the attention and other trimmings without "having to put out." What an insult to the wife when she's still having sex with the cheating husband and he treats the sex giving wife like No. 2


This is the mirror image of a guy who is wining and dining a woman only for him to find out she is having sex with another man during that period AND withholding it from him.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

IIJokerII said:


> What most people here and elsewhere tend to dot recognize or even acknowledge is that a EA is a precursor to a PA, as it is barriers ( Long distance, availability) and time that get in the way from an EA going full bore PA.
> 
> But like some others here have pointed out it is the amount od deceit one uses to sustain and nurture an EA that grades it's marital impact. Once it takes hold the marriage is destabilized to the point of no return if left unchallenged. The same methods used by cheaters during a PA is used during an EA. The same excuses, lies, gaslighting, increased aggression, rewriting of marital history, name it.
> 
> ...


* :iagree: Joker: Truer words were never spoken!*


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## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

I guess most of us can only accurately speak for ourselves. For me when I found out she had feelings for this douche bag it crushed my soul. I mean crushed it unimaginably. Yes, the physical aspect sickens me and disgusts me with her but the fact that she started to love this OM like she loved me literally almost killed me. I wished I was dead for well over a year.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Everyone is different, certainly, and I do think there are women out there who might have a bigger problem with PA's and men who might have a bigger problem with EA's. If I had to guess though, I would guess that wolf is mostly right here, that by and large most men struggle more with PA's while most women struggle more with EA's.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Agree Joker... Should also note that the emotionally detached PA is much harder to detect. With the EA attachment, there is a need to chat, talk about stuff, etc. So they'll find tons of time to have those long conversations about life making it easier to discover (plus they stop having those conversations with you). 

But the emotionally detached PA? Might be just occasional chatter and it doesn't take long to do the deed. Like my wife, go to happy hour, pick up a guy, go to his place and come back home at a very reasonable hour. Barely any texts or phone calls after that since it was more the 'wanna meet up again? (nudge, nudge, wink, wink)' sort of thing.

Another odd pattern based on my wife. Physical attraction. If you think on terms of sex rank, the lower rank guys had to form that emotional attachment to even have a shot. I ran across several guys who tried like hell to become her best buddy and work in those sexual overtones. But the attractive guys of a higher rank, it worked in reverse… she had to work them on an emotional front (and got shot down by a couple who didn’t want that kind of trouble when they could find a girlfriend easy enough). Basically, that plays a role whether it’d be an EA or not and why EA’s were really just PA’s under development.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> *Because a lot of women get off on the idea that they can get the attention and other trimmings without "having to put out." *
> 
> This is the mirror image of a guy who is wining and dining a woman only for him to find out she is having sex with another man during that period AND withholding it from him.


I think I was confusing in how I posted that. I meant it in the sense of the woman who was having the EA, no the male having an EA. To me, I think when a woman has an EA it is BAD NEWS because of the feelings/emotions and whatnot that women tie into emotions/their heart. If someone gets to a woman's heart, to me, it goes way beyond some wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am roll in the hay. Because it means she's emotionally invested and has "feelings" for the AP. And it's not just about sex. And then if she adds sex to the mix = the worst molotov c0cktail ever in terms of trying to 86 the affair and work on the marriage. Just my 2 cents. Some may disagree. It's how I feel though.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Jellybeans said:


> I think I was confusing in how I posted that. I meant it in the sense of the woman who was having the EA, no the male having an EA. To me, I think when a woman has an EA it is BAD NEWS because of the feelings/emotions and whatnot that women tie into emotions/their heart. If someone gets to a woman's heart, to me, it goes way beyond some wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am roll in the hay. Because it means she's emotionally invested and has "feelings" for the AP. And it's not just about sex. And then if she adds sex to the mix = the worst molotov c0cktail ever in terms of trying to 86 the affair and work on the marriage. Just my 2 cents. Some may disagree. It's how I feel though.


Your scenario is just as likely as the one I outlined. And neither is more acceptable than the other to the wife /partner who is being cheated on.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I didn't mean that either or was more acceptable because all cheating sucks. I was just saying that I think when a woman has an EA that goes PA, it is seriously bad bad bad.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Jellybeans said:


> I didn't mean that either or was more acceptable because all cheating sucks. I was just saying that I think when a woman has an EA that goes PA, it is seriously bad bad bad.


I got you the first time around. I don't post about everything I agree with but wanted you to know it seemed pretty clear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks. I sometimes think I'm not articulating myself well. Or maybe I'm not interpreting what others are saying as what they actually meant. Ah, the internet. LOL!


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

I also think that one of the big differences between an EA and a PA is that the PA is much easier to define. After all, sex is sex. Not much to quibble about. Whereas, an EA seems to be of two distinctly different types. There is the EA where there is no intention of any physical contact (online affairs etc), and then there is the EA which only lacks the opportunity for becoming a PA. Examples of the latter are distance or some other factor which prevents the EA from escalating into a PA. The "accident, looking for a place to happen" .


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Of the two, I think (though I do not know, as I never encountered an EA) that the first type , where there is not any attempt for it to go physical, would seem to me to be the easier to overcome.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Context would be important for me. How long did the EA/PA last? How much effort did my husband put into deceiving me? How was the affair discovered? 

With that said, a PA would be worse for me. Feelings change, but STDs and pregnancy are forever.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

This is a very interesting thread.

I see all sides of all opinions provided thus far.

I can add one thing... my guy has made it clear, in no uncertain terms, that a PA would be an insurmountable "deal breaker" for him. We have never really had the discussion of the difference of EA vs PA, but I know for him, he has a *very primal* (almost caveman ) sense of protecting what "belongs" to him. He would never be able to get past a physical affair. And I know for a fact, he would NEVER look at me the same way again -- special, unique, "his", and intimacy would be shattered in our world (then again, whose world is it NOT shattered in?!)

Not sure if that adds or detracts from the conversation, but thought I would add it to the mix.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/242641-men-vs-women-pa-vs-ea.html

There is a biological basis for the PA EA difference. Men who didn’t care if they were raising another man’s kid didn’t pass their genes on as much. Women who didn’t care if their man ran off with another woman had their kids starve more often.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> This is a very interesting thread.
> 
> I see all sides of all opinions provided thus far.
> 
> ...


I get your H 100%. Had the same boundaries in place after my first date with Mrs. Conan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## wmn1 (Aug 27, 2014)

PA= the worst. It's over plain and simple.

EA= Horrible. Able to recover ? probably not but it is a possibility depending on the damage and the actions taken afterwards. Marriage would never be the same again.

Both are horribly wrong.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I can only tell you I suffered from both at different times.. So I was able to process both the EA separate from the PA..

As a man the PA KILLED Me 1000x more than the EA, but I was still willing to work it out.. But the PA was a big ego hit among other things.. Knowing another man knew my wifes intimate bits was very hard to deal with..

For me it was comparing almost getting shot to getting shot..


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

So if a WW has a PA, in most cases is it also an EA?

(other than exit A's, etc)


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

harrybrown said:


> So if a WW has a PA, in most cases is it also an EA?
> 
> (other than exit A's, etc)


Case by case scenarios. I've read on TAM where some women have said it was only sex for them, no emotional connection at all; some were a one night stand. I've read others where the woman is up to sh*ts creek in her feelings for the guy when it goes PA.

*To the men on here reading*... It's said many times and in much research that men say the PA is way worse than an EA. Can you guys expand more - the ones of you who believe the PA is far worse than a PA? Is it a territorial/primal thing? Or rather, why do so many say they believe it cuts worse cut than an EA? I mean, I know that it is wrong and everything, I just am coming at this from a female POV where I think the EA is really horrible (because I'm a woman). LOL.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Hardtohandle said:


> I can only tell you I suffered from both at different times.. So I was able to process both the EA separate from the PA..
> 
> *As a man the PA KILLED Me 1000x more than the EA*, but I was still willing to work it out.. But the PA was a big ego hit among other things.. Knowing another man knew my wifes intimate bits was very hard to deal with..
> 
> *For me it was comparing almost getting shot to getting shot..*


HtH... great explanation. You summed it up great. So sorry for your pain, and I hope to never know it. Or cause it.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Jellybeans said:


> Case by case scenarios. I've read on TAM where some women have said it was only sex for them, no emotional connection at all; some were a one night stand. I've read others where the woman is up to sh*ts creek in her feelings for the guy when it goes PA.
> 
> *To the men on here reading*... It's said many times and in much research that men say the PA is way worse than an EA. Can you guys expand more - the ones of you who believe the PA is far worse than a PA? *Is it a territorial/primal thing?* Or rather, why do so many say they believe it cuts worse cut than an EA? I mean, I know that it is wrong and everything, I just am coming at this from a female POV where I think the EA is really horrible (because I'm a woman). LOL.


In large part, yes.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

I haven't seen this discussion applied to cybersex, which to me is more akin to a physical affair mainly because there is often no emotional involvement at all-just physical.

Not that it matters because I personally couldn't handle the lies and betrayal that come with infidelity, whether emotional, physical or cybersex.


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Jellybeans, FYI-

It is ABSOLUTELY a territorial/primal thing. Another man touched my wife?! She allowed it to happen?! Someone has to pay. That type of thing.

As a man, an EA in the past, with complete dedication now? I could forgive, and move on without tons of trouble.

My reality is a PA in the past, with complete dedication now, and I cannot get anywhere close to forgiveness yet, at 14 months. Drives me insane, and into fits of rage. 

Interestingly, after my wife had ended her PA, which I was still blissfully ignorant of, I exchanged a few letters with an old girlfriend (14 year old kid stuff) whom I've know since childhood. Yes, letters, it was that long ago. Now this was typical fluff, talking about kids, old friends, family. Not a speck of romance or intrigue. 

When my wife found out, she got the wrong idea and flipped out. I hadn't mention the letters to her because I figured she'd get the wrong idea and flip out.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Here's a pretty simple way to explain it, JB...

An EA _hurts_.

A PA *ENRAGES*.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Forest said:


> Jellybeans, FYI-
> 
> It is ABSOLUTELY a territorial/primal thing. Another man touched my wife?! She allowed it to happen?! Someone has to pay. That type of thing.
> 
> ...


LOL


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

Jellybeans said:


> *To the men on here reading*... It's said many times and in much research that men say the PA is way worse than an EA. Can you guys expand more - the ones of you who believe the PA is far worse than a PA? Is it a territorial/primal thing? Or rather, why do so many say they believe it cuts worse cut than an EA? I mean, I know that it is wrong and everything, I just am coming at this from a female POV where I think the EA is really horrible (because I'm a woman). LOL.


Along with the "primal" discussions above there is also the pack mentality among men. Whether or not an individual male can handle, accept and try to repair a marriage marred by a PA he will receive a lot more peer pressure to walk away vs. reconcile. The pack mentality towards a BH deciding to R is generally to regard him as a beta, wimp, loser, cuckold, doormat .... The most common reaction is "**** her, walk!" The BS can end up reversing his decision based on the stigma associated to him by other males. We see it here all the time.


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Hardtohandle said:


> I can only tell you I suffered from both at different times.. So I was able to process both the EA separate from the PA..
> 
> As a man the PA KILLED Me 1000x more than the EA, but I was still willing to work it out.. But the PA was a big ego hit among other things.. Knowing another man knew my wifes intimate bits was very hard to deal with..
> 
> For me it was comparing almost getting shot to getting shot..


HTH,

The oversight here is that an EA is more of a intimate bonding than anyone can realize and that parts of her is being shared with someone on a level not able to be forgotten. As well as a PA is also a break in an emotional bond as well.

Consider this, when pertaining to the physical. A woman goes to her gynecologist or for a breast exam. Some man, usually, has his hands on her in very intimate places. Sure it is a medical reason but nonetheless this boundary is breached. Not one man of any intelligent statue is going to think or feel any way violated. Of course this has no impact compared to a PA, but in time a simple PA of little emotional investment will give way to memory of the AP, just a fling on the side. 

But an EA, this so called harmless thing, is like a cancer that will eat a marriage alive from the inside out and akin to the effects of cancer the damage is found out only after in more cases than not too late. You as a husband have been berated, dishonored, shamed and betrayed. This other person feeds into it who does not know you and then also gets to touch her deepest chasms of her heart and mind. IT is also not too uncommon for a woman to tell an EA AP things she never told her husband about like her wants, needs, passions, and whatever else she did not care enough to share with her husband. 

I believe most men fool themselves into thinking that an EA is easier to deal with since the physical part is excluded. Remember fella's, they would have did it had they had the time and place. 

To be continued......


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

IIJokerII said:


> I believe most men fool themselves into thinking that an EA is easier to deal with since the physical part is excluded. Remember fella's, they would have did it had they had the time and place.
> 
> To be continued......


Excellent point. Typically the EA WW will fool themselves also into thinking it is just a friendship. My wife stayed in denial for a long time as to what the relationship really was. The relationship was LD so she felt it was "safe".  At D-Day, he had just starting making noise about visiting our city for an event. While I was still reeling from discovery and didn't see it as an affair, I did have enough sense about me to put the kabash on it even though I was already committed to attend the same event. She was disappointed but honored the boundary. Would she have taken the next step at that time? I honestly don't think I'll ever know in my own mind. Was he making the trip to go to the event, hell no. He was coming to **** my wife.

At the point my wife finally realized what the relationship really was she went into emotional turmoil. She had trouble dealing with the fact that it had happened to her. It was something she never expected in her life. She stated "I don't know what would have happened if the relationship had played out locally." My response was "I do." Later that day I let her know I wanted a divorce. I guess just the thought of it was enough to drive me over the edge. We backed away from the cliff and began to work on the marriage again


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

Forest said:


> My reality is a PA in the past, with complete dedication now, and I cannot get anywhere close to forgiveness yet, at 14 months. Drives me insane, and into fits of rage.
> 
> Interestingly, after my wife had ended her PA, which I was still blissfully ignorant of, I exchanged a few letters with an old girlfriend (14 year old kid stuff) whom I've know since childhood. Yes, letters, it was that long ago. Now this was typical fluff, talking about kids, old friends, family. Not a speck of romance or intrigue.
> 
> *When my wife found out, she got the wrong idea and flipped out. I hadn't mention the letters to her because I figured she'd get the wrong idea and flip out*.


Forest, your wife’s position is that you figured out that she had a PA years ago when she was having it. How does she explain her PA not being mentioned when she was freaking out about your suspected PA?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

harrybrown said:


> So if a WW has a PA, in most cases is it also an EA?
> 
> (other than exit A's, etc)


Well so long as you eliminate the one night stand scenario then they would be my guess


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Jellybeans said:


> Case by case scenarios. I've read on TAM where some women have said it was only sex for them, no emotional connection at all; some were a one night stand. I've read others where the woman is up to sh*ts creek in her feelings for the guy when it goes PA.
> 
> *To the men on here reading*... It's said many times and in much research that men say the PA is way worse than an EA. Can you guys expand more - the ones of you who believe the PA is far worse than a PA? Is it a territorial/primal thing? Or rather, why do so many say they believe it cuts worse cut than an EA? I mean, I know that it is wrong and everything, I just am coming at this from a female POV where I think the EA is really horrible (because I'm a woman). LOL.


I can only speak for myself but to me that is just something sacred and wrapped up with vows that you are agreeing in to share only your body with one another. My x wife for example. I had ,at one time, her emotional commitment however so did our children, her sister,her mother, her neice and so on. But only I was suppose to be able to have sex with her. So for her to do that with another guy hurt me far far worse than her telling him she was falling in love with him.

Sorry I can't descibe it any better than that

It's is fascinating though that you as a woman feel the same as my
Female friend and I as a guy go how could that every possibly be worse to say I love you vs having sex with someone?? Lol must be rooted in biology


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Amplexor said:


> Along with the "primal" discussions above there is also the pack mentality among men. Whether or not an individual male can handle, accept and try to repair a marriage marred by a PA he will receive a lot more peer pressure to walk away vs. reconcile. The pack mentality towards a BH deciding to R is generally to regard him as a beta, wimp, loser, cuckold, doormat .... The most common reaction is "**** her, walk!" The BS can end up reversing his decision based on the stigma associated to him by other males. We see it here all the time.


This is correct. Had I decided to keep my x I would have lost people over it I have no doubt.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

IIJokerII said:


> HTH,
> 
> The oversight here is that an EA is more of a intimate bonding than anyone can realize and that parts of her is being shared with someone on a level not able to be forgotten. As well as a PA is also a break in an emotional bond as well.
> 
> ...


good point here. Did you catch the WS in the emotional affair?.. Then yes you basically just caught it before it became a PA. 

But if they were in the emotional affair and came clean realizing that it was leading to a PA then that could be more forgivable. I guess that is the scenario I wonder if it had presented itself what would I have done


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Graywolf2 said:


> Forest, your wife’s position is that you figured out that she had a PA years ago when she was having it. How does she explain her PA not being mentioned when she was freaking out about your suspected PA?


Now that's a good logical question. So, since we're dealing cheater logic, there's no good explanation.

At the time she flipped over the letters, she was about a year finished with the affair. In her mind, things were now all fixed, even though I didn't know. I would not find out about her infidelity for roughly 18 years.

So, she see's I've exchanged a few letters with a childhood girlfriend, and thinks that now I'm the potential cheater, and everything is going to be effed up again.

Reality was, they were meaningless correspondence from small town childhood friends.

I actually mentioned this incident to her when I finally found out a year ago. "How could you flip out at me for a few letters with no romantic undertone, when you'd just concluded this PA?"

All she could do was shake her head and say, "I just thought everything was fixed, then I found about the letters and flipped out...." 

I guess I probably snorted at the response or something. What can you say? I'd already told her in very clear terms what I thought of her behavior at the time. It more or less whimpered itself out.


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## tryingtogetover (Feb 7, 2015)

I am a guy whose wife had an EA with an old friend from HS on Facebook six years ago. It was incredibly painful when I found out and confronted her. She lied, blamed me...blah blah blah...you all know the drill. We R'd over the course of 2 years, and are now doing great.

That said, if she had had a PA, I don't know how I would have proceeded. I feel for all of you who have been betrayed in that way, and admire those who were able to R with your cheating spouse. 

All I can say with any confidence is that right now, if she had a PA after what I went through with her EA, I would immediately file for divorce. Heck, even if she had another EA, I would probably file.

I don't think she is going to do either, but I have learned to trust conditionally.


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## Graywolf2 (Nov 10, 2013)

Forest said:


> So, she see's I've exchanged a few letters with a childhood girlfriend, and thinks that now I'm the potential cheater, and everything is going to be effed up again.
> 
> Reality was, they were meaningless correspondence from small town childhood friends.
> 
> ...


In a way this makes sense. She cheated so thought you were certainly capable of doing the same. She survived the storm of her affair with her family intact and felt safe. Then the letters threatened her security so she freaked out. 

My point is that she said that you knew about her PA. If she’s flipping out on you, didn’t she think it was strange that you didn’t bring up her PA?


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## Forest (Mar 29, 2014)

Graywolf2 said:


> In a way this makes sense. She cheated so thought you were certainly capable of doing the same. She survived the storm of her affair with her family intact and felt safe. Then the letters threatened her security so she freaked out.
> 
> My point is that she said that you knew about her PA. If she’s flipping out on you, didn’t she think it was strange that you didn’t bring up her PA?


I've probably been unclear, or scrambled things up. I'm entitled. I'm a effed up goombah. 

At the time, I didn't know jack. Didn't yet know of her PA. I was Ward Cleaver, Mr Reliable.

Yet, at the time, she did suspect me of cheating. Not sure why, but I would tell her about all the guys I worked with that did. I guess that was a mistake. I was just being honest. 

Had I actually known about her cheating, I'd have gone Rambo, and ended up behind bars. Which is very ironic; I was the law at the time. Now, I'm the ex-law, retired-in-good-standing, which is kinda more manageable.

The sheriff in my current county of residence? A relative. Ah, piece of mind at last.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

@jellybeans
it is a territorial thing, and also an instinctual thing related to reproduction (if a woman is willing to sleep with someone else, I could end up raising another man's child and my children might not even be mine after all - that's what instinct tells you, and it's something that has no meaning to a woman, who is always sure that her kids are her kids).

I think that the difference between how men and women perceive a PA is evident in how Arbitrator has phrased it, saying it all in one sentence:

"if the other man has in any way planted his seed and penetrated my W"

Seed is used by man to "mark" the woman as his own. If a woman has been "marked" by another man she becomes "tainted" in her husband's perception in a way that is not true the other way around. That same motivation is behind how most men consider unforgivable performing sexual acts with another man that weren't allowed to the husband.

In a way, I think, a partners' PA for a woman is like having her car stolen, for a man is like having thieves visiting his house. The car theft might bring bigger damage (if the car was expensive and you didn't keep many valuables inside your house, it often is like that), but it doesn't bring the same sense of violated intimacy as having strangers messing around in your house. If you get your car back, you might being awkward at first in using it, but you get over the awkwardness pretty quickly. Your house after being visited will not feel safe anymore for a long time. 

Just my two cents.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> Case by case scenarios. I've read on TAM where some women have said it was only sex for them, no emotional connection at all; some were a one night stand. I've read others where the woman is up to sh*ts creek in her feelings for the guy when it goes PA.
> 
> *To the men on here reading*... It's said many times and in much research that men say the PA is way worse than an EA. Can you guys expand more - the ones of you who believe the PA is far worse than a PA? Is it a territorial/primal thing? Or rather, why do so many say they believe it cuts worse cut than an EA? I mean, I know that it is wrong and everything, I just am coming at this from a female POV where I think the EA is really horrible (because I'm a woman). LOL.


Jellybeans, I can only speak for myself, but for me, it wasn't so much territorial issues, as it was a trust one. 
When I met my wife, she is the reason I decided to settle down and have a family. I figured it was time, and she seemed to be the best woman to do it with. I loved her, to distraction, she was smart, funny , dropdead beautiful, and she loved me the same way. I never was so immature as to regard her as a possession, she was the woman I chose and who chose me. For over 20 years, we were a team. We lived, loved, and worked together with our eyes on the future.
A marriage is much more than a sum of it's parts. When she gave herself to another, she repudiated not only me, but the team, as well. She gave the lie to all we had built together. The special relationship (soulmate concept, if you will) that we had, was the solid rock upon which we built our lives. By allowing somebody else to use what was ours, negated all of the specialness of it. She turned from being my partner, into being just another woman I f**ked. That is the main reason I could not R with her. The special relationship we had, wasn't so special, after all.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

This is the rub, isn't it? How can you be .....THE ONE.......cheat....and become .......THE ONE.......again?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

italianjob said:


> @jellybeans
> it is a territorial thing, and also an instinctual thing related to reproduction (if a woman is willing to sleep with someone else, I could end up raising another man's child and my children might not even be mine after all - that's what instinct tells you, and it's something that has no meaning to a woman, who is always sure that her kids are her kids).
> 
> * I think that the difference between how men and women perceive a PA is evident in how Arbitrator has phrased it, saying it all in one sentence:
> ...


*Italian: The most important caveat contained therein is that, in my situation, there was a more than willful invitation extended by my XW to her OM, thereby making her more than a willing participant in their adulterous scheme. 

In essence, they both are equally guilty because while she knows that she is a married woman, summarily violating the vows and trust that she made to her husband, the OM is, with extremely rare exception, every bit just as aware that he is contributory in helping her to break her marital vows, largely to get his very own biological/sexual needs met, and quite often, with little, to absolutely no care for her personal well being, other than for making sure that she can, once again, be there for him whenever he needs yet another sexual release/fix, and that's largely contingent upon how long that her dopamine high for him continues! Or even his for her!

At the very same time, her new love interest does not have one scintilla of remorse for, nor gives a "tinkers damn" about her legitimate husband, or their family! As long as the two of them are both getting their prurient physiological needs met, it's preeminently all about them ~ and nobody else! *


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

arbitrator said:


> *Italian: The most important caveat contained therein is that, in my situation, there was a more than willful invitation extended by my XW to her OM, thereby making her more than a willing participant in their adulterous scheme.
> 
> In essence, they both are equally guilty because while she knows that she is a married woman, summarily violating the vows and trust that she made to her husband, the OM is, with extremely rare exception, every bit just as aware that he is contributory in helping her to break her marital vows, largely to get his very own biological/sexual needs met, and quite often, with little, to absolutely no care for her personal well being, other than for making sure that she can, once again, be there for him whenever he needs yet another sexual release/fix, and that's largely contingent upon how long that her dopamine high for him continues! Or even his for her!
> 
> At the very same time, her new love interest does not have one scintilla of remorse for, nor gives a "tinkers damn" about her legitimate husband, or their family! As long as they are getting their prurient physiological needs met, it's all about the two of them ~ and nobody else! *


The goal of my post was more about explaining how men perceive the sexual aspect of betrayal and why it is different than how woman perceive that same aspect, and your sentence stood out as perfectly explaining this in very few words

The part about it not being true the other way around was a reference to the fact that women can't perceive their man's betrayal in the same way because the "marking" part is not true for them.

You make an interesting point, though, and one I agree with, about the culpability of the AP. I also don't buy into the "the OM/OW owes you nothing" philosophy, but that is a Whole different debate, that would take us far off topic here.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Actually I don't think that the categorization of EA - PA makes a lot of sense. 

An EA is usually an affair that was stopped before having a chance to become Physical. Sometimes it was caught in time, sometimes one of the affair partners feels guilty because of their inappropriate behavior and finds the strength to stop it. Even Online Affairs, if given enough time, will sooner or later find the partners planning for a way to meet IRL.

I think a "real" EA (with absolutely no intention of physical contact even given the chance) is a rarity. As is a PA with no emotional connection whatsoever. It might not be true love or even just simple love, but if you have sex with the same person a number of times you're going to develop a certain level of affection for that person.

Maybe a ONS might be a PA only, but even many of them aren't really.

I think it makes more sense to talk about Emotional and Physical Aspects of an Affair, the first being what usually affects women more, the second having a stronger impact on men as a group.
I see EA and PA as phases of the same process, an affair usually develops like this:

Inappropriate Behavior -> EA -> PA.

Most of what we call EAs are simply affairs that got stopped before they ended the cycle, IMO.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

italianjob said:


> Actually I don't think that the categorization of EA - PA makes a lot of sense.
> 
> An EA is usually an affair that was stopped before having a chance to become Physical. Sometimes it was caught in time, sometimes one of the affair partners feels guilty because of their inappropriate behavior and finds the strength to stop it. Even Online Affairs, if given enough time, will sooner or later find the partners planning for a way to meet IRL.
> 
> ...


Sorry, Italianjob, but I think you are wrong about this. I think that the vast majority of EA's are conducted with no intention of physical contact, whatsoever. Look at the number of "social" sites on the web, like POF or Loveshack, for examples. I would even be willing to bet that there are a number of EA's being done on TAM.
I had a married lady work in my office, who was addicted to social sites, and was in long term contact with several OS posters that she revealed the intimate details of her marriage to, including "sexting". She viewed it as "fun" but would never think of her husband knowing what she was doing.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, Italianjob, but I think you are wrong about this. I think that the vast majority of EA's are conducted with no intention of physical contact, whatsoever. Look at the number of "social" sites on the web, like POF or Loveshack, for examples. I would even be willing to bet that there are a number of EA's being done on TAM.
> I had a married lady work in my office, who was addicted to social sites, and was in long term contact with several OS posters that she revealed the intimate details of her marriage to, including "sexting". She viewed it as "fun" but would never think of her husband knowing what she was doing.


Just my opinion, but I don't agree.
They do start out with no intention of physical contact, in the phase I was calling Inappropriate behavior, but most become something different by the time they reach real EA status. Given time enough the intention of physical contact enters the picture.
Again IMO.


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Many talk about how it is far worse if the affair has love involved as opposed to it being just for sex or fun.

In many ways this is true. How do you come back from your partners actually loving someone else? Can you? If you do reconcile you need to believe it wasn't real love but just an infatuation, and the doubt will torment you for a long time. Or that he/she fell out of love with AP and now loves you again. The fear of simply being plan B will make it difficult for your marriage.

But are we sure that this is worse than an affair for which sex or fun was the main motivation?

If my SO loved her/his AP she was in the affair because of THAT particular person. If it was for sex I wasn't giving enough sex, or what I gave was considered inadequate, or he/she simply likes variety. 

In the "love" scenario if I can get to a place where I believe my SO is not in love anymore with his/her AP, I can be reasonably confident that she/he won't betray again.
In the "sex" scenario, the problem will still be there, so it's hard to believe it won't happen again.

Furthermore, I may be hurt and angry but still mantain a certain level of esteem for somebody's wrongdoing motivated by falling in love. I would have a hard time to respect someone who is ready to throw everything away for some "rolls in the hay".

Just my two cents again, I think I made a 6 cents total today.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

italianjob said:


> Just my opinion, but I don't agree.
> They do start out with no intention of physical contact, in the phase I was calling Inappropriate behavior, but most become something different by the time they reach real EA status. Given time enough the intention of physical contact enters the picture.
> Again IMO.


It's OK. We don't always have to reach any kind of consensus, here on TAM. We can agree to disagree. I do appreciate your point about the difference between sex and an EA though.


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## Rookie4 (Nov 26, 2012)

italianjob said:


> Many talk about how it is far worse if the affair has love involved as opposed to it being just for sex or fun.
> 
> In many ways this is true. How do you come back from your partners actually loving someone else? Can you? If you do reconcile you need to believe it wasn't real love but just an infatuation, and the doubt will torment you for a long time. Or that he/she fell out of love with AP and now loves you again. The fear of simply being plan B will make it difficult for your marriage.
> 
> ...


I agree that it would be really hard to forgive a spouse who cheated for the purpose of "recreational " sex.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*What really chaps my ass about the whole infidelity thing, is that the WS these days, just doesn't seem to remember the verbage of the sacred vows that we supposedly take in each others presence, as well as that of our families, friends, clergy, and more importantly, God! 

The "binding" words contained within those holy vows, just all too often, are deemed to be nothingmore than ceremonial, and therefore are totally hollow! 

At least in the cheater's eyes, anyway!*


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## blahfridge (Dec 6, 2014)

Interesting discussion. I am one of those whose marriage has had both PA's on the part of my husband and an EA on my part. 

He had numerous affairs which were facilitated through a cheating website over almost a decade. I had the EA via email with someone on the other side of the world. Not that it matters about the distance, but it made the chances of us ever taking it to the next level extremely remote. 

The H had a complete meltdown about what I did, claiming it was worse because there were feelings involved, whereas what he did was just about sex. I don't buy it. When someone has a PA, it's never just about sex. It means there are serious, underlying issues that that person has and the marriage has got problems. 

When I had the EA, he said it woke him up and he could see that he was losing me. Through couples therapy he finally confessed to the other affairs and the financial cheating. So, my EA was the catalyst for finally getting some truth and my H would like to put it all behind us. But it's too late for me, I will never feel the same way about him again. That's the worst part about cheating, it changes the way you view your spouse and it changes the way you view marriage itself.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Jellybeans said:


> Case by case scenarios. I've read on TAM where some women have said it was only sex for them, no emotional connection at all; some were a one night stand. I've read others where the woman is up to sh*ts creek in her feelings for the guy when it goes PA.
> 
> *To the men on here reading*... It's said many times and in much research that men say the PA is way worse than an EA.* Can you guys expand more - the ones of you who believe the PA is far worse than an EA?* Is it a territorial/primal thing? Or rather, why do so many say they believe it cuts worse cut than an EA? I mean, I know that it is wrong and everything, I just am coming at this from a female POV where I think the EA is really horrible (because I'm a woman). LOL.


Mind movies perhaps?


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## IIJokerII (Apr 7, 2014)

Amplexor said:


> Along with the "primal" discussions above there is also the pack mentality among men. Whether or not an individual male can handle, accept and try to repair a marriage marred by a PA he will receive a lot more peer pressure to walk away vs. reconcile. The pack mentality towards a BH deciding to R is generally to regard him as a beta, wimp, loser, cuckold, doormat .... The most common reaction is "**** her, walk!" The BS can end up reversing his decision based on the stigma associated to him by other males. We see it here all the time.


 Mild caveat if I may,

The prime reason most men here recommend turning the other way after d-day is to lure the true intentions of the WW out into the open. Take me for example, had I filed for divorce when I found out about her affair earlier last year (Christ, it has been a year already) I would've not only gotten her true intentions but also would be so much farther along right now. I wasted time and money in so many things, like MC, Changing shifts at a loss of pay, financially supporting her endeavors from in house recreational, to out of the house personal growth to career pursuit which all I might add went either dormant or simply nowhere. 

This was all under the guise that her affair was all over as I tried the patient approach and with a combination of hope and patience was rewarded with an affair that died out due to his disinterest to her simply finding another AP signaling her unwillingness or not wanting to work on the marriage. I remained exposed to gaslighting, twice, well three times counting her 2006-2007 EA (Unproven PA). I took the abuse of her lies, then intravenous "I Love you's" watched her ignore the kids all day then get pissed about me challenging her about it as if coming home and seeing them still in PJ's and dining on snack food by 3 PM was acceptable. Her using these fodder I love you's as a way to get money from me via my debit card yet the Hope and patience I had in her was as ever misplaced.

I fought these good people till no end here on TAM as my main thread shows and guess who was right about the outcome and her motives; Not me, the one who wanted to stay together and took nearly a year of abuse before taking action against her. The TAM community was right.....And in some ironic way I am kinda bitter about it too. 

I would've forgiven her had she stopped and did what the WS is expected to do to reestablish trust and respect. She didn't. My close friends in real life who knew the details had mixed feelings but the ones of better understanding of things like this either cautioned or supported my decision to go forward. None made efforts or remarks to dissuade me. 

I love a good ending and hope all couples who go thru this can find their way back to each other as people are more often than not stupid. But there is a difference between being malicious and uncaring vs stepping in a shyt pile realizing all too late that you will track one hell of a mess once you step back inside the house. Don't take my word for it though, ask Dadof2, Luvmyjava and all the other threads that have dozens of pages who resisted an aggressive stance while defending their WW actions or rationalized them. See what they have to say.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Jellybeans said:


> *To the men on here reading*... It's said many times and in much research that men say the PA is way worse than an EA. Can you guys expand more - the ones of you who believe the PA is far worse than a PA? Is it a territorial/primal thing? Or rather, why do so many say they believe it cuts worse cut than an EA? I mean, I know that it is wrong and everything, I just am coming at this from a female POV where I think the EA is really horrible (because I'm a woman). LOL.


Primal and complex. I think there are a lot of things feeding into it. One major one is that as a boy and even men, SEX holds a very strong value. I do not think as a woman you have any real clue about how that is for boys and men. 

Just look at it from the outside. The number one husband complaint is sex. The percentage of men who view porn. The locker room banter. The boys who get bullied versus the boys who are popular. Boob and butt obsession. Even a ton of energy is spent just trying to get laid because it is that important to us. Do you believe for a minute you could form a deep exclusive relationship with a man without using any sex? When it comes down to it, so much of what makes a man’s primal focus when around women, kind of orbits around sex and women; It’s never far from our core. It affects male hierarchies, self-esteem, self-worth, etc. for a large majority of men. It’s not shocking at all PA’s are worse for men by far considering how important sex is to us. Even in gay male communities, it’s important. 

Basically, it is linked into a ton of things about how we see and value ourselves and others.


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

blahfridge said:


> The H had a complete meltdown about what I did, claiming it was worse because there were feelings involved, whereas what he did was just about sex.


That's the one I've also noticed. Not many have gone through both. They are both horrible, so most likely you will think whatever kind of affair you had to deal with was the most horrible. And you'll justify it easy enough. 

I've been through a lot. As far as how I rank them in their hurt me worst: 

The EA/PA long term was the most horrible; it's the quantity there that kills you. 
The short term PA next. 
Then the sexual EA's. 
Then the EA's of the heart.
Then the minor PA attention wh0re stuff like the kissing, groping, grinding when drunk in public.


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## Maricha75 (May 8, 2012)

cdbaker said:


> Everyone is different, certainly, and I do think there are women out there who might have a bigger problem with PA's and men who might have a bigger problem with EA's. If I had to guess though, I would guess that wolf is mostly right here, that by and large most men struggle more with PA's while most women struggle more with EA's.


My husband and I are in agreement on this one. For us, EA is bad enough. But taking it physical? Much worse. Again, that isn't to minimize either for anyone else. This is just how we feel in our own marriage.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Racer said:


> That's the one I've also noticed. Not many have gone through both. They are both horrible, so most likely you will think whatever kind of affair you had to deal with was the most horrible. And you'll justify it easy enough.
> 
> I've been through a lot. As far as how I rank them in their hurt me worst:
> 
> ...


*Racer: How exactly would you define "a sexual EA?" And, citing examples, how would you contrast that with, say "a genuine PA?"*


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

arbitrator said:


> *Racer: How exactly would you define "a sexual EA?" And, citing examples, how would you contrast that with, say "a genuine PA?"*


Sexual EA were those ones where it involved the sexting sort of stuff. 

How I'd contrast it is that it is more like interactive fantasy based. So it wasn't as hurtful with her talking like 50 shades, knowing damn well that sort of fantasy would 'go down' entirely different in reality. It's all fantasy and in your head. In real life, her insecurities and past traumas would kick in. But in that fantasy land, it's more about projecting a image to the other person including lying your arse off to be somehow bigger and more impressive than the real deal. Sort of like how a guy might fantasize about a threesome and be happy to text that... in reality, it's f'n weird loading you up with insecurity...

The PA is different. That's as real as it gets and goes beyond the fantasy. So it means she enjoyed that physical reality where it was both mental and physical. It was "more" than just talking about it from a totally false persona.

See that prior post. For a guy, sex, particularly for me with its ability to make me feel wanted and special, is huge player in our self-image. I could easier deal with an idea that she had some low libido than face her libido is fine and it's just how she thinks about me that isn't good... Even total losers she was more willing to think about sexually. Really, really hurts.

The sexual EA was easier though. A lot easier to convince yourself that they wouldn't do it that way and most of it is just bragging and trying to turn this other person on more than really describing what they would really do if they were in a room together.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

The "You're the love of my life" is heartbreaking enough, but the "The sex I've had with you is light years away from the sex I've had with my spouse" creates a mental scenario that is traumatic and difficult to overcome without therapy and a permanent separation from the cheating spouse. At least for some of us.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

Rookie4 said:


> Sorry, Italianjob, but I think you are wrong about this. I think that the vast majority of EA's are conducted with no intention of physical contact, whatsoever.


So what?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

I would divorce over either...but pa is worse to me. My primary LL is physical and I do equate sex and love. To me the most intimate thing and proof she loved me is when my wife was carrying my child.

If she has sex with another man that tells me she loves him and wants to or is willing to carry his baby.

I could not get over that.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Does gender matter? Speaking for myself I can only say both EA and PA hurt badly. My WW started with an EA that went PA. What exactly did she share during her EA? I'll never know the full story, not that she didn't tell me or refuses but she can't recall every conversation over a six month period. She did tell me the pertinent information which was difficult enough to hear. The PA was just as devastating and very difficult to get over. The pain is that she loved OM and considered leaving me for him. Together my WW and OM planned vacations and both thought if leaving their current spouses. So for me the bond between them was formed and both claimed to love each other. 

As for the physical aspect it is just so hard for me to accept that she gave herself to him. That after almost twenty five years together, at the time if the affair, she gives away herself. Intimacy is very important to me and my WW is my first. The looking in each others eyes and the love shown between us. That part is gone now but I'm hoping in time that it returns. Just walking up behind my WW and hugging her then kissing her neck I still can't do to this day. But slowly things are returning. The pain is still sharp when I dwell on the affair but therapy has helped me immensely. So for me both hurt, both ripped my heart from my chest, and both will take therapy to get over. I only know I could have never caused her as much pain as she has caused with her affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Coldie (Jan 2, 2014)

An EA is tough, but you can see with the fog, people minds aren't clear. It's easy to talk and fall for someone else when they are saying everything perfect and giving you all the attention you ever wanted. It's easy to hate the person you are with when the other person you are talking to feeds off the negativity and almost encourages you to dig up more dirt on your spouse. It's easy to not see or think clearly. If the reasons behind the EA were lack of attention or appreciation, it's also easy to fix. With an EA, once the fog is lifted, you can see the mind's regret. You can feel the embarrassment and shame. Once the mind is embarrassed, ashamed, it's easy to repair and move on.

Long before we were married, we had "puppy" love, crushes, lust. We had relationships where we were head over heels for a few weeks then just absolutely hated the person. 

With physical, no matter how much they want to erase or regret, it's just hard to let go of the idea of someone else is out there that took advantage of you. Her regret doesn't erase the other man's accomplishment. Her regret also doesn't replace what she physically felt. Unlike her brain being fogged over with hormones and endorphins, her body was taken, explored, and sometimes even ejaculated in. I'm sorry, this type of thing just can't be fixed for me.

Maybe when have a different perspective because they know women aren't walking around thinking, "I had your husband and took him and came inside him!" Sorry for the imagery, but maybe just the physical act of sex itself isn't as violating. For women, maybe the mind is how a man is "taken" by another woman.


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