# evidence gathering sans cheating



## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

For those that know my story, I promise I will do an update in the coming weeks, I just do not have the time at the moment. 

Today I am just looking for generic advice. It seems to be a pretty unanimous opinion here (at least what I have seen, could be wrong) that when it comes to gathering evidence when one suspects their spouse of cheating, that as they gather said evidence, they do it on the down low and don't confront the cheating spouse right away. You do this so you don't tip them off and then they hide anything else more thoroughly before you are able to find it.

Ok... so what about when you have found evidence that has nothing to do with an affair, but yet still is something negative? Do you still wait it out and see if you can dig deeper and find more and not let the other spouse know for a while? Or do you confront them right away so you can talk about it? That basically you found something your spouse has been lying about, and your marriage is already rocky. But has nothing to do with cheating, but still creates broken trust. Do you seek to tackle the issue at hand immediately with your spouse, or wait to see if you can find more shady things? I'm trying to figure out what to do.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Don't confront him until you have solid evidence that he's doing something that you cannot tolerate. Once you have that evidence take time to plan what you are going to do.

Only after you have the solid evidence and a plan do you confront him.

You need the solid evidence because 9 times out of 10 he'll deny it and blame shift by attacking you for snooping.

Do you normally not have access to the accounts? Does he control the marital assets?

What do you plan to do based on this evidence you have collected?


.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Don't confront him until you have solid evidence that he's doing something that you cannot tolerate. Once you have that evidence take time to plan what you are going to do.
> 
> Only after you have the solid evidence and a plan do you confront him.
> 
> ...


I guess one more quick fact about my marriage that is important to know is things have not been right for almost 2 years. The source has never been found as to why. He works away from home a lot, silent treatments happened a lot etc. So the occasional snooping on my part has been to try to figure this all out. 

Within the realm of this, it is pretty solid evidence. I guess I just mean there could be other things I don't know about and now won't once he knows how I was able to get this. He'll probably be even more careful with his phone. With aforementioned situation, no, I do not have access to his phone regularly. I've always had access to emails, accounts, etc.

Yes, I am worried about the snooping part. I'm not sure how he'll react. The only thing I would do with this is show him and ask him what the deal is with these lies and this file. There is so much I don't know about the last 2 years, and this is just a piece of the puzzle. But I'm not really confident that I would be able to uncover more, at least not in a timely manner. We are attempting to fix our marriage.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You say that he travels a lot. How much?

My experience with men who travel a lot is that have another life that they keep from their wife. They do things that would be much harder to get away with if they were at home every night.

Since I have no idea what the issues are and what the evidence is, it's hard to give you much advice. 

If you have access to all the accounts, what could you have found about them on his cell that you cannot find out another way?


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

elegirl- I found conversations on his phone with negative content. 

I'm only looking for advice on the confrontation vs waiting when it comes to non-cheating information. I think I might reword the OP more to reflect that.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Adeline said:


> elegirl- I found conversations on his phone with negative content.
> 
> I'm only looking for advice on the confrontation vs waiting when it comes to non-cheating information. I think I might reword the OP more to reflect that.


Your OP is very clear. There is no need to change it.

So I answered with my opinion. Do not confront until you have solid evidence.. .to include screen shots, downloaded files, etc to back up what you are confronting about. And have a plan of action in place. Then and only then do you confront.

It's exactly the same as when snooping about cheating.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

staarz- I don't necessarily think he's cheating. It's always a possibility though. The information is nothing close to cheating. It's just about him lying about information and appearing somewhat malicious in how he speaks about me to others. Knowing very little about his life the last couple years, this was somewhat a breakthrough... not so much in explanation, but just seeing how he's been speaking about me to others during our trying times. 

Yeah, others have said about the possibility of alternate accounts, I have no idea. Even if he did, how would I be able to find out? I can see charges on all our cards. But yeah, he could have other accounts. I just don't think I'd be able to find that out. So maybe waiting wouldn't do any good. 

I guess it would be harder for me to move forward with him like he wants without knowing what the deal with this information is. ANd yet at the same time I don't want him knowing that I was smart enough to find this. Maybe keep tabs on him for a while to see if anything shady is ongoing. I just really don't know what to do, that's why I came here haha... though I know no one can make the decision for me, I was just wondering what people thought in general about important info that wasn't about an affair.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> Your OP is very clear. There is no need to change it.
> 
> So I answered with my opinion. Do not confront until you have solid evidence.. .to include screen shots, downloaded files, etc to back up what you are confronting about. And have a plan of action in place. Then and only then do you confront.
> 
> It's exactly the same as when snooping about cheating.


Oh I only meant because I already have a big thread about my marriage, and I didn't want to be accused of being a multiple thread maker about the same issue! Just didn't want it necessarily to be all about my marriage, but more just the general idea of finding negative information that wasn't cheating, but still bothersome. That's what I meant 

With what you say, I do have that evidence. So he couldn't deny its existence, I've got it for myself. It's just confronting would likely prevent me from possibly finding anything else, ya know? Maybe theres more I don't know about, I didn't know about this for months. That's the only downside it seems. Maybe I'm on the brink of figuring it all out and just don't know it yet, and confronting would ruin that.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I would wait a while. You might be on the brink. Evidence gathering is like peeling an onion. Each layer you peel reveals another.

Does he travel with a computer? Do you have a key logger on his computer?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Do you have a VAR in his car?


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

staarz21 said:


> ETA: I realize that you haven't found evidence of cheating, but your other posts suggest you think he may have cheated while away. *So, confronting now will eliminate any chance of finding out later. Waiting may or may not result in what you're looking for and will eat you up inside*.


Just caught the ETA. To the bolded, precisely my confusion! Each has it's pros and cons. I could be on to something bigger, but also I could not be. It would be a lot easier to wait it out another month or 2 if he was working away a lot, but it looks like it's only going to be a few days here and there and not as often as before. So I'd be around him a lot. Grrr. I don't know.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

elegirl- no, no VAR. I had thought about it previously, but with him travelling so much he wouldn't be using his car much anyways. And when he is home he just drives to work and back, and spends all his free time tending to his yard and possessions. So he doesn't go "out" when home. So any sort of craziness it would seem would happen when he'd be travelling. So boo. I think he has a work laptop that he can bring with on trips but then it stays at work. And it is limited to what it can go to/monitored. So I've always not really worried about. Not sure if I should! But I have access to the home computer and his emails.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

If it's a laptop issued by his company (not a company that he owns) then you cannot put a key logger on it.

You seem to miss the point about a VAR. A lot of people use their car as a private phone booth. If they are having an affair they will usually call their affair partner while driving around. When traveling, they will often call the person they will be meeting saying that they are about to get on their flight and will be seeing them soon.

If they are not having an affair, they often call friends and talk about things that they cannot talk about at work or at home.

Have you checked his phone records to see if he's making/receiving calls at the times he's in his car?


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

elegirl- ok, that's a really good point I hadn't thought of. When I've looked at the phone records I've never really paid attention to the times, only the numbers, which all check out. I think I will from now on pay attention to the times... good idea! However, his main mode of conversation is texting... he texts like mad. I haven't seen a lengthy phone call from him in months on the records.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Check to see if he ever makes a phone call while he's in the car, no matter how long it is.

What kind of phone does he have? There are key loggers that can go on phones as well.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

it is a smart phone, but I just do not think he'd not notice something like that installed on his phone. And that's if I could get his phone in my hands again anytime soon. Which is unlikely. But yeah, he'd definitely notice a new app on his phone. Even if it was disguised as something else, which is what I've heard. 

I'm feeling my anger build up. This neutrality that we've been working on is probably going to go to sh*t regardless of what I choose to do...


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

There are keyloggers that do not show up as apps. They are hidden from even the most sophisticated users.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

whoa. I have never heard of that. Wouldn't it show up in the systems or settings action, or show that there are more kilobytes being used or something to that effect? I feel like he'd be smart enough to notice ANY type of change, especially on his phone that he practically lives on. If I googled would I easily be able to find said information? I'm full of questions but I know I might be able to just find it. I'm just wondering the mode of putting said keylogger on the phone, is it a download etc. Intriguing.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

Okay, from what I understand, while doing some investigating concerning a possible affair, you stumbled upon evidence of another matter and wonder if you should confront H based on that matter.

No. I don't think you should...if you are still hoping to still find evidence of any kind. It will cause him to question what else have you been "snooping" around in...and clean up his breadcrumbs.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Check your PMs


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> There are keyloggers that do not show up as apps. They are hidden from even the most sophisticated users.


They are a violation also.. 
http://jolt.law.harvard.edu/digest/...act-regulation-of-keyloggers-in-the-workplace

http://blogs.lawyers.com/2012/11/dont-spy-on-cheating-spouse/


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## sunray (May 12, 2013)

Adeline said:


> For those that know my story, I promise I will do an update in the coming weeks, I just do not have the time at the moment.
> 
> Today I am just looking for generic advice. It seems to be a pretty unanimous opinion here (at least what I have seen, could be wrong) that when it comes to gathering evidence when one suspects their spouse of cheating, that as they gather said evidence, they do it on the down low and don't confront the cheating spouse right away. You do this so you don't tip them off and then they hide anything else more thoroughly before you are able to find it.
> 
> Ok... so what about when you have found evidence that has nothing to do with an affair, but yet still is something negative? Do you still wait it out and see if you can dig deeper and find more and not let the other spouse know for a while? Or do you confront them right away so you can talk about it? That basically you found something your spouse has been lying about, and your marriage is already rocky. But has nothing to do with cheating, but still creates broken trust. Do you seek to tackle the issue at hand immediately with your spouse, or wait to see if you can find more shady things? I'm trying to figure out what to do.


Why would you wait it out to see if they'll "dig themselves deeper"? That seems malicious in its own right. 

I don't understand why someone won't be upfront and say " I believe xy&z is happening and I'm leaving. 

I speculate if this suspicion does not pan out you will look for another reason to leave. Just leave or stay and go no where. Leaving can save or end a marriage. Good luck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

sunray said:


> Why would you wait it out to see if they'll "dig themselves deeper"? That seems malicious in its own right.
> 
> I don't understand why someone won't be upfront and say " I believe xy&z is happening and I'm leaving.
> 
> ...


no, it's if I would be able to dig deeper. Not him. And because he is unable to be upfront. I literally have no clue what is happening. So I can't confront him on a hunch. I don't even really think he is cheating. He lies and then wants to work on things. I can't ignore 2 years of being in the dark and still be able to move forward with him. I need to know if I can safely have a future with this person. I understand though that me not giving much information in this thread means that people will make their own conclusions. I was just trying to make this a more brief back and forth with a focus on just one aspect for the time being.


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## sunray (May 12, 2013)

Adeline said:


> no, it's if I would be able to dig deeper. Not him. And because he is unable to be upfront. I literally have no clue what is happening. So I can't confront him on a hunch. I don't even really think he is cheating. He lies and then wants to work on things. I can't ignore 2 years of being in the dark and still be able to move forward with him. I need to know if I can safely have a future with this person. I understand though that me not giving much information in this thread means that people will make their own conclusions. I was just trying to make this a more brief back and forth with a focus on just one aspect for the time being.


Do you even want to stay with him? Is so, why? Children?? Just saying, I wouldn't want to live in constant suspicion. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

FormerSelf said:


> Okay, from what I understand, while doing some investigating concerning a possible affair, you stumbled upon evidence of another matter and wonder if you should confront H based on that matter.
> 
> No. I don't think you should...if you are still hoping to still find evidence of any kind. It will cause him to question what else have you been "snooping" around in...and clean up his breadcrumbs.


Yes, mostly. I wasn't focused so much on the possibility of him cheating, just information in general. I am isolated from much of what he does in his own daily life. I was surprised to find anything, he usually keeps things pretty tidy, even on his electronics. Him still having some things leads me to believe that he isn't as careful as I thought, or at least not 100%.

My first gut feeling was I need to talk to him about this ASAP. Now as I am thinking outloud with the help of this thread and y'all responding, I'm starting to feel like maybe waiting a little bit would be smarter. But not much longer. Perhaps a month or so. If nothing else ongoing is happening that I can follow within that time it will be time to talk about it. I'm not patient enough to go beyond that.



EleGirl said:


> Check your PMs


I will. Thanks


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

sunray said:


> Do you even want to stay with him? Is so, why? Children?? Just saying, I wouldn't want to live in constant suspicion.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


you can check out my other thread with the details if you want to know more of my story  It is a pretty lengthy read though. But yeah, I do want to stay with him. I'm more looking for reasons TO stay with him, actually. We've had just about 2 years of turmoil and not really knowing much about the others' daily life. He says he wants to make this work. I have a hard time going forward with that when he has been so terrible towards me... I need to know why that happened before I can believe him. Part of knowing the "why" is figuring out what went on these last couple years. Since he can't articulate it, figuring out his activities and conversations are my only clues.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Never reveal until you are satisfied that you know enough. 

So he talked nasty about you to others... That's what cheaters and liars do. They build their case so they don't look like a bad guy.

Listen to the advice on the VAR. If you really want the info you have to stop making excuses for not gathering it based on assumptions. He could have another phone for all you know.

Look in his car for papers and trash. Under the seat. Glove box. Trunk. Under the for mats. In the back seat where things can get stuck and not be seen again workout digging. Visor, that little cubby where sunglasses go. 

It is weird for a guy to never bring home his laptop. 

You should run through every one of his apps, too. There are apps that are there to hide photos and texts. Get the names and look them up. You can also get copies of your credit reports.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

Really?

You rather snoop around to gather as such evidence of some allegations of cheating rather than just say what 's on your mind?

I can think of other more productive measures than stooping low to do this.

Two things can be going on:

-you're too insecure about your marriage, therefore too immature to be in one. Hence, get a divorce.

Or

-he IS cheating, making him incompatible to be married to. Hence, get a divorce.



I would never put myself in this position to compromise my own self worth to go searching for evidence of infidelity. I'd rather be a better person than that.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Adeline said:


> you can check out my other thread with the details if you want to know more of my story  It is a pretty lengthy read though. But yeah, I do want to stay with him. I'm more looking for reasons TO stay with him, actually. We've had just about 2 years of turmoil and not really knowing much about the others' daily life. He says he wants to make this work. *I have a hard time going forward with that when he has been so terrible towards me.*.. I need to know why that happened before I can believe him. Part of knowing the "why" is figuring out what went on these last couple years. Since he can't articulate it, figuring out his activities and conversations are my only clues.


You talk as if his being terrible toward you was in the past. It isn't. It's part of your present. He's still being terrible toward you - for example, you need to snoop around in order to try to get glimpses of what he has been doing the last 2 years when he could easily tell you _but won't._

Of course you can't believe he wants to make it work. He's not being open and honest with you and you have to snoop since he won't talk to you and is abusive toward you. It will never work under those circumstances.

You really don't need to dig up anything. You're just delaying the inevitable.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Adeline said:


> Ok... so what about when you have found evidence that has nothing to do with an affair, but yet still is something negative? Do you still wait it out and see if you can dig deeper and find more and not let the other spouse know for a while? Or do you confront them right away so you can talk about it? That basically you found something your spouse has been lying about, and your marriage is already rocky. But has nothing to do with cheating, but still creates broken trust. Do you seek to tackle the issue at hand immediately with your spouse, or wait to see if you can find more shady things? I'm trying to figure out what to do.


Here's the thing Adeline: You do not NEED evidence! Your own belief is enough for you to take action. What's more, if you take a significant action based purely on your own belief (without evidence) there's more likelihood of seeing REAL change over time.

For instance, if I wait and gather evidence for three months that my husband's having an affair, that same three months will be experienced by him as being evidence that cheating is easy and fun. However, if I change the locks and tell him, "I don't like the way you're treating me and it really doesn't matter why - you can't have me unless you treat me well," then all his accusations and silliness can fall on my deaf ears. He will experience THIS as an "I better change if I want to keep her" moment, though there is a chance of being dumped for being "crazy." I'll opt for being thought of as crazy if it means that I'm taking good care of myself, because nobody else will if I don't.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Revamped said:


> Really?
> 
> You rather snoop around to gather as such evidence of some allegations of cheating rather than just say what 's on your mind?
> 
> ...


How would she know for certain that he's cheating? He's not going to admit it.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

At this stage of the game, does it even matter?

Her insecurities and his inability to communicate for TWO years will not make a successful marriage. I'm not going to slither around to find so-called evidence of impropriety. It makes me just as guilty as a cheater. Or worse, an insecure idiot looking for a nonexistent fight.

Marriage should be based on Trust. Apparently, neither one of them trust each other in the fact that neither one can express their fears and expectations to one another to work this out in a healthy way.

Stick a fork in it people.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Revamped said:


> At this stage of the game, does it even matter?
> 
> Her insecurities and his inability to communicate for TWO years will not make a successful marriage. I'm not going to slither around to find so-called evidence of impropriety. It makes me just as guilty as a cheater. Or worse, an insecure idiot looking for a nonexistent fight.
> 
> ...


This is what I was saying above, in a way. If someone's worried that their partner's cheating, then it's because there is already unacceptable behavior. It isn't necessary to prove cheating to take action to prevent becoming a victim. It's only necessary to believe that action is required.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

ok, so maybe this thread wasn't such a good idea. I realize that now. For some reason I thought I could just bring up a general topic regarding a situation and not get too personal for the sake of being brief and getting more answers from a variety of people, but yet giving a few details as I knew some people might ask for them. But instead I created a little confusion and it becoming only about my personal situation. But that's ok! It's my fault. 

I'm surprised it's focused so much on me "trying to find out if he's cheating" as I specifically said in the OP that that wasn't the case at all. In fact kind of the opposite, I really don't feel that he is cheating. Again, I know I sort of opened myself up to speculation as some people had this thread alone to go by when judging my situation, but I haven't been this "crazed girlfriend type" when it's come to snooping... I've literally looked at his phone twice in the last entire year. The other things, such as accounts and whatnot, well I legally am entitled to access those things. So really, if anything, I haven't done ENOUGH digging around. At least to some peoples' standards.

Bottom line is until my husband gets right with his own mind and issues, I will never get a satisfactory answer. No chance of that for a long while. I've let too many things go in regard to being out of the loop with him, so naturally I'm impatient. I'm going to do that here and there in the meantime because honestly, I feel I've earned that. I need to have a foundation of understanding in order to build on something with him. Not sure how that's immature. I'm dealing with someone who is not stable.

This wasn't about cheating AT ALL. Him talking about us to other people isn't a big find or anything, initially it felt like it but really it isn't. It was just weird seeing that as it was a little window into his world. He always claimed he didn't talk to other people about his situation, save for one person. And I believed him because of 2 reasons 1. he is so emotionally stunted and 2. I had seen other "evidence" or whatever of him talking about me and us to others as if everything was perfectly fine and I always found that so strange. It really did look as though he was keeping me/us his dirty little secret so that everyone else thought everything was perfect and he was perfect. So it's weird to see that that wasn't true, as it goes against what it appeared he wanted to create. But really, it's not the answer. It's just a puzzle piece of understanding.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

clipclop2 said:


> You should run through every one of his apps, too. There are apps that are there to hide photos and texts. Get the names and look them up. You can also get copies of your credit reports.


Yeah, that was part of the reason I kept wanting to see his phone again... last time I did it was only to see something in his contacts and texts, I scrolled through his pics and whatnot and then that was it. Then it occurred to me after how there are all sorts of apps and I was kicking myself for not checking those. I have a smart phone as well, but I really only use it to call, text and surf the web some. So I didn't even think of it. 

For the most part everything seemed fine, except for a game he plays on there. I know he plays with his brother and co workers and there is a little chat thing, it really seems fine but i kind of want to check that out occasionally to see how he interacts as there are also strangers that play. And not to "wait and see if he messes up" or anything, but just to get a general indication of how he acts on there. Like a few more weeks. Then I am going to talk with him about what I found. 

And just in general to everyone, it's not so much that i am looking for evidence of him being a terrible person, as i pretty much live that evidence, it's just finding out what he's been up to and if there are any clues that give me a jumping off point of how to deal with this. It's hard to tackle something that is missing important tangible parts.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Adeline said:


> Bottom line is until my husband gets right with his own mind and issues, I will never get a satisfactory answer. No chance of that for a long while. I've let too many things go in regard to being out of the loop with him, so naturally I'm impatient. I'm going to do that here and there in the meantime because honestly, I feel I've earned that. *I need to have a foundation of understanding in order to build on something with him. *Not sure how that's immature. I'm dealing with someone who is not stable.


Again, you keep talking about building a foundation with him, building your relationship, building understanding...but it's just not possible to build anything with a person who simply refuses to communicate with you openly and honestly. 

YOU can't build on anything because HE is constantly tearing it down, every day. 

You're looking for a reason to stay with him, to rebuild a marriage, and he's firmly planted in refusal to actually do any work (like communication, like not being abusive, like telling you everything about his medical issues, like telling you what he's been doing for 2 years and why, like not giving you the silent treatment) to be a husband.

There is nothing to build on but your fantasies of happy family, which has no basis in reality.



Adeline said:


> He lies and then wants to work on things. I can't ignore 2 years of being in the dark and still be able to move forward with him.


Exactly. And since he won't tell you anything, you can't move forward. Snooping isn't productive because it's STILL not HIM telling you anything. That's at the heart of the problem.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

Snooping is an invasion of someone's privacy. I have never looked into my husband's phone, pockets, wallet, dresser, car or computer. It's not the kind of person I want to be.

You call him "unstable" and wish to know if he's talking to anybody about you. Seems to me, if you want answers, ask him. If he can't or won't answer then the ball is in your court to decide if this person is the one You want to "share" a life with.

Because your husband doesn't want to share anything with you, is your answer.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

norajane said:


> Again, you keep talking about building a foundation with him, building your relationship, building understanding...but it's just not possible to build anything with a person who simply refuses to communicate with you openly and honestly.
> 
> YOU can't build on anything because HE is constantly tearing it down, every day.
> 
> ...


well, yes that has been in the past. But he has never been unwilling to get professional help. That is our avenue right now. Professional help and spending time with one another. Probably another reason why it stung to find this, even if it was the past. We are working on things. It's not a blast, but it's something. He hasn't torn down this phase just yet. And may not.



Revamped said:


> Snooping is an invasion of someone's privacy. I have never looked into my husband's phone, pockets, wallet, dresser, car or computer. It's not the kind of person I want to be.
> 
> You call him "unstable" and wish to know if he's talking to anybody about you. Seems to me, if you want answers, ask him. If he can't or won't answer then the ball is in your court to decide if this person is the one You want to "share" a life with.
> 
> Because your husband doesn't want to share anything with you, is your answer.


Ok. I never used to either. I have to have some level of trust or at least acceptance to have been able to deal with him not living at home for practically half the year every year, both before this terrible time and after. And no, I wasn't really looking for if he was talking about me. Again, I assumed he wasn't. I was just looking for anything. I'm not going to feel bad for looking in his phone. He has plenty of freedom and privacy. And yes, i have chosen to at the moment share my life with him, or at least try. But i am really my only advocate in this and I'm not going to go into it blindly. It's taken a lot for me to get to this place to feel I need to do this. It sucks, but it's this or continue doing what i was already doing. Instead, I've chosen to do something different.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

I don't blame you for snooping. The problem is, as long as you have to snoop in order to learn about who your husband is, that means your husband isn't the one communicating and telling you. As long as he isn't communicating and being honest and open, you have nothing to build on or build with.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

norajane said:


> I don't blame you for snooping. The problem is, as long as you have to snoop in order to learn about who your husband is, that means your husband isn't the one communicating and telling you. As long as he isn't communicating and being honest and open, you have nothing to build on or build with.


yeah, that's kind of been the difficult part. The bridge between the past couple years of abuse, and the moving forward/present part. I feel even if he made this amazing transformation of communication and transparency from here forward, it wouldn't erase my curiosity of the past, ya know? I don't really feel he's "up to" something now. But it seems to be a roadblock for me to not know anything of the past. I know i can't know everything and will have to let some things go, but things still don't add up quite enough for me. And of course my husband (as he always has) is willing to just shed that past. And i have to still be somewhat cautious with opening up to him as he gets help, but yet still being available and doing normal things together like eating dinner and doing errands. It's been interesting trying to find a balance.


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Revamped said:


> Snooping is an invasion of someone's privacy. I have never looked into my husband's phone, pockets, wallet, dresser, car or computer. It's not the kind of person I want to be.
> 
> You call him "unstable" and wish to know if he's talking to anybody about you. Seems to me, if you want answers, ask him. If he can't or won't answer then the ball is in your court to decide if this person is the one You want to "share" a life with.
> 
> Because your husband doesn't want to share anything with you, is your answer.


Hmmmmmmm....

Secrecy in marriage - never. Everything should be and better be completely available. Electronic devices, accounts everything fully accessible by either person. Hearts, minds. Everything completely open to each other. Without exception.

Privacy - using the toilet.

Do not confuse the two.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

only someone who hasn't ever lived with someone who is good at lying and hiding and keeping secrets would be able to come from such a high and mighty plate and state that they would never do this or that. fact is until they are in that situation they don't know the Michelle. What they're talking about is an ideal and heck yeah we all want to live in an ideal an authentic manner. It just doesn't work that way at times. 

I have a list of deal breakers. but a lot of other things are not so firm. 

it also isn't easy or cheap of a marriage. I don't know if the person who is so anti checking out parts of your own life is ever been divorced but trust me it is a bit of a challenge. 

but at some point its time to accept things at itsfacw se and begin planning for the afterlife.. the marriage seems like a big black hole. no light ever escaped it .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

So, integrity has become a black hole?

If I can't trust somebody, that's on them, because they caused the doubt. But if I can't be myself to be loyal, trustworthy and moral to MYSELF, then how can I entrust others to do the same?

To Thyne own self be true.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

so tell me how often use been challenged in this way in your real life and provide examples of how you follow through in exactly the manner in which you describe.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

by the way I'm not sure how you were able to draw the conclusion that I said integrity is a black hole.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

You want me to prove my morality and integrity. Ok.

I can't. I won't. No, thank you.

Sure, you can look through my previous posts and my profile, dig deep to "find" clues into my psyche. Make assumptions that could be right or wrong. You want me to give examples how I've lived my life to prove what, that I'm human? The bottom line, is you won't know any more or less than what I've written. 

OP needs to talk to her husband. Not sneek around looking for clues to see who he is. Either he'll let her in OR he won't.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

listen to your rhetoric. And listen to how you are characterizing my request. you are using inflated language.

It should be simple. and in fact most people be proud to demonstrate an example of where they had been challenged and they rose to the occasion. 

you come off as pompous and holier-than-thou and then you turn around a very clear and very direct question and try to characterize it as something else. 

while you are living in an idealistic world it would be helpful if you recognize that other people live under other realities and know for a fact that you can never know exactly how you will be in a situation until you're there. 

and if you can't do that then prepare for people to challenge you.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

Revamped said:


> Snooping is an invasion of someone's privacy. I have never looked into my husband's phone, pockets, wallet, dresser, car or computer. It's not the kind of person I want to be.


What other real life example are you looking for? Yes, I am divorced and remarried. I have made many mistakes. Many. Just not this...


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all.
I am in general opposed to all monitoring / tracking of a partner. If they have given you reason to believe that they are doing something wrong, then act on that. Life is not a criminal trial - "proof" of bad behavior doesn't matter. If you are unhappy, then leave - you don't need evidence that they are at fault. 

One problem with monitoring is that you are likely to find *something* unpleasant. Most people's lives can not stand up to complete scrutiny. People are of course free to decide what does and doesn't matter to them, but I think that they may reject a lot of good decent people because they find a few unpleasant issues.

The OP was not talking about cheating but about other undesirable behavior of an unspecified type.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Bad mouthing ones spouse iS one of the red flags of a cheater.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

if everyone left a situation/marriage when they were unhappy, then probably most everyone would quit! Nobody is happy with everything 100% of the time. The problem is he won't let me in. He likes to paint an idealistic picture of how things are. I've never known enough to contradict him, although I always felt it wasn't completely the truth. So questioning him on anything specific was impossible, because I had nothing to go by. You can't confront someone on a "feeling" or some vague notion. Every time I do have some sort of fact that I have found myself I am able to directly ask him about something and it then opens up a conversation that wouldn't have happened otherwise. He can't avoid it when it's straight facts. It forces him/us to deal with it right then and there. I never thought that this would be what we needed, but here we are.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Revamped said:


> Really?
> 
> You rather snoop around to gather as such evidence of some allegations of cheating rather than just say what 's on your mind?
> 
> ...


She's gathering information in order to decide how to move forward or even if it's worth moving forward. Or yes, she could just say to hell with it and divorce 'cause who the hell would actually want to get a little dirty in order to clean up a marriage.

Everyone is so quick to tell someone else to get a divorce:

Doubt them? No way should you actually find out if your doubts are justified or not, get a divorce.

They won't talk to you? Divorce them.

They farted in your general direction? Divorce them.


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## Revamped (Jun 19, 2014)

In simplistic terms, yes.

In two years, OP has been left in the dark about the status of her marriage. She's tried talking to him but gets nowhere. Ever.

So the advice she gets is to get a VAR, key apps, rummaging through trash, his car for tidbits of clues to the man she married. Ahah! YOU went to McDonald's and had COFFEE! You dirty rotten scoundrel you! 

My point is, it takes two people to get married but only one to wreck it. He's wrecking it. He knows his wife is unhappy and refuses to discuss their relationship in a manner she feels safe and secure in. He REFUSES. He doesn't think he's doing anything wrong. However, she does, by the simple fact he won't share his life. Stalemate. How much longer will this drag out? Another year? Five? 20?


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

It'll drag out for as long as it has to, or until something changes. Your point of no return would be different from the OPs, which is also different to mine, or different to whoever else read this thread. Maybe we could say "I would" throw in the towel, not that they "should" throw in the towel based on someone else's value system/boundaries etc. I've probably done the same thing in another thread somewhere no doubt. Still, it's easier to step back from a precipice rather than to climb back up after jumping off; that's how I feel about deciding to divorce. Once you've stepped off that cliff, you'd better hope it's what you really wanted to do.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

He doesn't want to share and is unhappy himself. Therefore he 

A. does not want to be happy or B. does not want to be happy with the OP or C. Does not know how to be happy or D. Does not believe he can be happy with the OP.

His choice is to freeze her out.

No matter how you slice it, he isn't marriage material for the OP. He is dishonest and evasive. Terrible characteristics.

She doesn't seem like someone who did this to them. And even if she did, she is willing to fix things. He refuses.

Marriage takes two people who are at least willing to try. She could wait him out and maybe he will have an Aha! moment and things will turn around. How long to wait though?

Recon is sensible in this case. This is her life, too!


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

fair enough. I think the best way to agree to disagree is to say that we all have different thresholds. And that threshold isn't just based off of who we are as a person, but also the circumstances within the situation. Like for me, my husband isn't always home. He works away from hole A LOT. So even though it has been 2 years of this nonsense, I can't say "we've been trying for TWO YEARS and nothing has changed" because it isn't true. The attempts have been limited to the times he's been home, ranging from a few days to maybe a month straight. Yes, the tries have been numerous, but always cut short. So it just feels like "we've only been able to try for a month at most, can't give up yet." That's where I'm at. I keep wondering what it will look like if we get beyond that. 

And though he's set us back countless times, he always states that he "wants things to be better," "knows he f*cked everything up," "you deserve better," "I'm a jerk," "doesn't want to lose me." So how can I not pursue this? Lately I've just been taking the approach of realizing I have to lead him. Trying to be his friend, understand his emotions. Humanize him. Something I haven't really done before.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

Actions... What he is saying with his words is that you should feel sorry for him because he doesn't know how to do any better. But he never really tries.

The idea that trying stops because you are apart is an excuse. There is no will to change.


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## clipclop2 (Aug 16, 2013)

By the way, no man will ever fall in love with a woman who acts as his mother.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

well, define mothering. Of course I have heard of this term, but usually it is applied to those wives who have to pick up after their husband and do everything from cooking to cleaning while he sits on his lazy butt. That's not really the case. In fact he almost parents me in the fact that he "pays for everything" and "puts a roof over my head" like he has said in the past. I don't really feel like his mom.

Definitely things aren't miraculous or anything like that, don't want you thinking I'm saying that at all. But he has taken steps that I have asked of him. Like seeing the MC and the psychologist. I've seen him implement some anger management tools, I mean it's good, but it's kind of funny because I can always spot when he's using what they must be teaching him. The attempt stops when we are apart because he often times is not able to contact me. I think the will to change is definitely there, it's just the nature of his career distracts him like crazy. It's tiring, dangerous, and unforgiving. He's pushed to always prioritize it over everything else. 

Overall though, it really is too soon to tell. It hasn't been long enough to see if he will really put his money where his mouth is. So in a lot of ways you could be right. And I am still being cautious.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Adeline said:


> Definitely things aren't miraculous or anything like that, don't want you thinking I'm saying that at all. But he has taken steps that I have asked of him. Like seeing the MC and the psychologist. I've seen him implement some anger management tools, I mean it's good, but it's kind of funny because I can always spot when he's using what they must be teaching him. *The attempt stops when we are apart because he often times is not able to contact me.* I think the will to change is definitely there, it's just the nature of his career distracts him like crazy. It's tiring, dangerous, and unforgiving. He's pushed to always prioritize it over everything else.


You're making excuses for him. Or you are swallowing his excuses.

No matter what kind of job anyone has, there is no reason they cannot contact you. Even our military in Afghanistan is able to contact home. 

Every night, he goes to bed. Every night, before he goes to bed, he can contact you. Yes, he can. Don't let him lie to you that he can't. 

If he has time to use the bathroom, he has time to send you a "Hi, I miss you" text.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

norajane said:


> You're making excuses for him. Or you are swallowing his excuses.
> 
> No matter what kind of job anyone has, there is no reason they cannot contact you. Even our military in Afghanistan is able to contact home.
> 
> ...


Believe me, we have had issues where he could have contacted me and didn't. That's definitely a problem that happens. But there are lots of times where he cannot, and I am always informed by his higher ups about this. He can't always have his phone when he's doing certain things in certain places unfortunately.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Maybe he needs a new job that is more conducive to repairing his marriage.


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## Adeline (Jan 24, 2014)

norajane said:


> Maybe he needs a new job that is more conducive to repairing his marriage.


For the first time ever I am feeling that big time. And I hate that, because I always felt very supportive of him and encouraged him in this since day one. I did not mind the long distance when our relationship was good. I knew many wives probably would have a problem with it, and always prided myself in never making him feel guilty for doing what he loved. Now, of course, I have been feeling for like a year plus that his job definitely hinders this process, but the last few months I've really wondered if this can even be repaired with him doing this job. I can't believe it's come to that. I now feel like one of "those" wives.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Perhaps he can put his money where his mouth is, and request a temporary leave from his job. A sabbatical. If he's so super-valuable, they would probably agree. Or maybe they have other unpaid leave options.

Alternately, can he cash in all his vacation time at once and take time off to work on his marriage?

Nothing will change if he's not around to work on it.


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