# Marriage slipping away



## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Hello. After reading many threads over the past months, I have decided to share my experience. First, the stats: I've been married three years; together six. I'm 35; W is 31; no kids. We are currently separated after W abruptly left last October.

I met her online just as I was finally beginning to recover from the end of a previous seven-year relationship -- almost three years after my ex-girlfriend ended that relationship. This was my only other significant romantic relationship prior to meeting W. Things got serious quickly and began spending most of our time together. We were engaged a year later and married two years after that. 

Early on in our relationship, many of the themes that led to the end of my previous relationship began to surface. My major depression, co- dependency, possessiveness. I was the dominant partner early on for a number of reasons. I was older, had a good career, earned good money. I was also emotionally needy, impetuous, capricious, and sometimes sullen and antisocial. She was extremely social, life-of-the-party, with a group of friends from college who partied nonstop. However, she catered to my wants and desires, and generally took care of me. Naturally, this made me feel loved. 

I should add that we both come from families where our parents had highly co-dependent relationships – with one parent being the caretaker and the other being moody, temperamental, and emotionally needy. To make matters worse, my mother is doting in the extreme – I could do no wrong in her eyes – and I sought the same traits in a partner.

After the initial honeymoon period, my chronic depression began to rise to the surface. I lost interest in sex, became antisocial and generally withdrew from everyone except W. My depression also contributed to my losing my job, which led to an even deeper depression, which endured throughout our relationship. My neediness, fear of abandonment, and selfishness continued unabated, while W generally accommodated me in the hopes that she could solve our problems by caring for me and loving me. Slowly, however, she began to grow distant and resentful of my selfish behavior.

Last year my father was diagnosed with a terminal illness and died a few months later. I did not handle this well. I kept my emotions bottled up for months, while self-medicating daily with alcohol. I didn’t talk to W (or anyone else) about my feelings about my father’s death. Instead, I withdrew and grew more distant from her. Meanwhile, our marriage was quickly deteriorating and I was in too much of a stupor to notice. I began to resent W for not taking care of me and supporting during my time of need. This was a recipe for disaster.

Several months after my father’s death, I finally began to grieve – it all came pouring out in the most intense way. I would sob uncontrollably almost every day. I continued to feel that my wife wasn’t supporting me or comforting me enough; and her resentment of me continued to grow throughout my (admittedly unhealthy) grieving process. In the end, we were like two roommates who didn’t like each other very much who happened to sleep in the same bed. Physical and emotional intimacy were virtually non-existent. 

While I was still experiencing this intense grieving, W took a solo trip to visit her sister for a few days. I felt that I needed her to be with me while I was an emotional wreck, but her family is important to her. So I asked her to cut her trip short by one day, which I thought was a fair compromise. She refused, basically drawing a line in the sand. I felt like she was failing me in my time of need, while she felt I was trying to control her and was being possessive. After she returned, we had a huge fight. I lashed out at her family (not the first time) and called them unspeakable names. I knew it would hurt her. She began to pack an overnight bag to leave and became outraged and started to throw things around the house. This was not the first time I flew into a rage and began to throw things. Understandably, she felt unsafe and ultimately left to stay with a friend. 

In early December, just a few weeks after she left, she told me she couldn’t envision ever coming back – she couldn’t see us ever getting back together. She didn’t think we could be happy together. She didn’t think she could trust me not to hurt her again. She couldn’t love me the way one ought to love a spouse. I was devastated. I pled, cried, begged, argued, rationalized. I called her frequently. I even showed up at her apartment. Of course, I now know this behavior pushed her away further and scared her. It confirmed the many of the reasons she no longer wanted to be married to me – my dependency, instability, neediness, my short temper, my selfishness, capriciousness. And my occasional sharp meanness.

A month after that, in early January, came the dreaded D-Day. Over lunch she told me in no uncertain terms that she wanted to divorce. I started wretching and almost vomited my lunch at the restaurant. This led to more pleading, much more crying, suicidal thoughts, begging and rationalizing.

She got her own apartment in February. She signed a lease and moved most of her belongings and some furniture from our house.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Meanwhile, I strongly suspect that she began seeing her ex-boyfriend shortly after D-Day. Since I still paid the phone bill, I noticed hundreds and hundreds of texts to one number in the bill for the month of January. I quickly found out this number belongs to her ex-boyfriend. She had broken up with him a few months before we met. I also found other evidence which strongly suggested that she was having sex with him or someone. No smoking gun, but very strong evidence. I called her and confronted her, and she became very angry and accused me of violating her privacy. She did not deny it, at least not initially. She texted her ex immediately after getting off the phone with me, and then spoke to her sister at length (I learned this from reviewing the phone activity). I believe they advised her it was better to deny the relationship, so she called me up shortly thereafter and told me that they were just “catching up” and he was just providing her with emotional support during a difficult time. I called bullsh*t, but he stuck by her story. I pressed her during a few subsequent conversations, and when we last spoke about it she said “I don’t see the point in talking about it because we’re getting a divorce and there’s no chance of reconciliation.” She then said she never wanted to talk about it with me again. I haven't brought it up since.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

I was devastated, suicidal. My hopes for R were dashed, and I was ready to immediately file for divorce on the grounds of adultery. However, my IC talked me down on both counts, and after a couple weeks cooling off I decided I was going to do everything I could to save the marriage and started to implement a version of the 180.

I didn’t contact her for one week after that last conversation. No calls, no texts, no emails. This was excruciatingly difficult. When I did finally call her, we had a very pleasant conversation. After that, another week with no contact. We slowly resumed contact, but at a much lower intensity than before. She became much warmer, while she was cold, hurtful and mean when I was being overbearing. 

She has begun to (very occasionally) initiate contact with me. She has expressed interest in what I was learning in therapy. She begun sharing with me what she was doing, though I had stopped inquiring so as not to be controlling. She has proposed getting together on a couple of occasions, while making clear that they are not “dates” – just hanging out. We had dinner a couple of weeks ago, which went very well – no divorce talk. And she is coming over tomorrow (her idea) to hang out and order a pizza from our favorite pizzeria.

At the same time, she continues to hew to the line of 100% divorce with absolutely no chance of reconciliation. She has recently expressed concern that she's sending me "the wrong signals" by getting together with me. I think her behavior is sending me mixed signals, while her words are saying No in completely unequivocal terms. It’s possible she is just trying to be “nice” to assuage her guilt and make herself feel better. I think (and my IC agrees) that she's on the fence but her defenses are still way up. Any inkling of dependency I show triggers her to recoil from me. At the same time, whenever I engage in minimal contact, show strength, humor she warms up a bit. Of course I may be misreading her completely and she's just be trying to let me down easy. But I have made clear my feelings, that I think we can have a much stronger, more intimate, more loving partnership – and that I don’t want to be her friend. I don’t think it’s possible for me. 

In any event, I am anxious about our meeting tomorrow. I'm afraid I will turn into an emotional pile of mush when she reiterates that she has absolutely no desire to try to reconcile. This is what has happened in prior meetings. However I'm determined to show her strength and to show her that I'm prepared to let her go, if that's really what she wants.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

I should note that, after W left, it has become apparent to W, my IC and me that I fit the criteria of someone with borderline personality disorder. I have undergone intensive dialectical behavioral therapy to address it. I'm now focusing on dependency and control in my IC.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Canardo said:


> I should note that, after W left, it has become apparent to W, my IC and me that I fit the criteria of someone with borderline personality disorder. I have undergone intensive dialectical behavioral therapy to address it. I'm now focusing on dependency and control in my IC.


What was your childhood like?


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> What was your childhood like?


My childhood was mixed. I can't say mine was an altogether unhappy childhood, but there was definitely a lot of darkness. My mother was extremely doting and her love for me was (and is) completely unconditional. I could do no wrong in her eyes. 

My father was short-tempered and often withdrawn. He demanded absolute deference and felt easily threatened and humiliated whenever he was challenged. It seemed that anger was the only emotion he was capable of expressing. The only time I saw him cry was when he was in the ICU, a few days before he expired. He had a difficult childhood and grew up extremely poor and angry, while we were relatively privileged. He often used corporal punishment on myself and my brother. I once confronted him about it as a young adult, when I was in college, and he could not bring himself to apologize or admit it was wrong. My relationship with him grew increasingly strained. We never developed a close relationship as I always felt I was walking on eggshells around him -- he was highly critical of us and extremely reactive at the same time. His presence at home cast a long shadow, which I absorbed to some extent.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

It sounds like your wife is intimidated by your anger.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> It sounds like your wife is intimidated by your anger.


I agree, as well as my instability and neediness and need for control. All these things scare her. But I have shown almost zero anger towards her since she left (only initially after the shock of her leaving). Even when confronting her about her ex-boyfriend, I expressed no anger -- I told her that I understand why she would seek out a relationship with him. That it is comforting, he's the opposite of me (simple, puppy dog love), and he could fulfill her emotional (and physical) needs in a way that I didn't. In fact, she has shown more anger towards me during this separation than she ever has before, mostly in response to my pleading and my suicidal threats.


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## allowingthecakeeating (Mar 13, 2013)

As a female I would be highly concerned with many of the actions that you have shared. If you genuinely love this women I would take the time and get yourself healthy. Quite frankly, I would tell her you love her and then leave her alone (for a long while). Spend the time getting on proper medication, working a twelve step program and intensive counseling. If she spends time with someone else it would have happened anyway.... I dont think after a few short months you can change some of the behaviors that were going on. If she comes back and you do not work through some of these issues there could be considerably more damage or worse children involved. Take care of yourself first right now. 

Maybe once you get healthy you can reconnect


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

> allowingthecakeeating;1555243]As a female I would be highly concerned with many of the actions that you have shared. If you genuinely love this women I would take the time and get yourself healthy. Quite frankly, I would tell her you love her and then leave her alone (for a long while). Spend the time getting on proper medication, working a twelve step program and intensive counseling. If she spends time with someone else it would have happened anyway.... I dont think after a few short months you can change some of the behaviors that were going on. If she comes back and you do not work through some of these issues there could be considerably more damage or worse children involved. Take care of yourself first right now.
> 
> Maybe once you get healthy you can reconnect


Thank you for your reply. I agree with you thoughts and am trying to get healthy. I've stopped drinking completely and I'm doing intensive therapy. I think I've made some progress but I know I have a long way to go. I have been on an antidepressant since shortly after my father died, and I think it has helped.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## allowingthecakeeating (Mar 13, 2013)

It sounds like you are making some good choices. 

But make sure that you are making them because you know you need them, not because you think this will bring her back. I think that if you really want to be a better husband she will be more impressed that you were willing to let her go (for the time being...) and take care of yourself then to make changes that were not genuine. 

There is one thing I can assure you, if it is not genuine most issues "rear their ugly head again"! 

Good luck


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Canardo said:


> It has become apparent to W, my IC and me that I fit the criteria of someone with borderline personality disorder. I have undergone intensive dialectical behavioral therapy to address it..


Canardo, welcome to the TAM forum. If you have full-blown BPD, you likely have what is called "high functioning BPD," which means you likely get along fine with business associates, casual friends, and total strangers. None of those people pose a threat to your two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship to be abandoned and no intimacy to cause a feeling of engulfment.

Importantly, you have an amazing level of self awareness for a person suffering from BPD. I would be surprised if 1 in 100 BPDers have your level of self awareness. This means you are already over the biggest hurdle that blocks other BPDers from taking advantage of the many excellent treatment programs available.

The self awareness, however, is not sufficient. Also required is having sufficient ego strength to be willing to work hard in therapy for several years. It therefore is a very good sign that you have stayed in DBT and are continuing to work hard on your therapy. 

As you likely already know, DBT will teach you skills you never learned in childhood -- e.g., how to better control your emotions, how to self sooth, how to stay in the present instead of escaping into daydreams (i.e., "mindfulness"), and how to intellectually challenge your intense feelings instead of accepting them as truth. In that endeavor, I wish you the very best. If you would like to speak with other treated BPD sufferers, you will find a number of them here on TAM (e.g., Mavish, Pidge70, and Trenton) and many more at BPDrecovery.com. Take care, Canardo.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

allowingthecakeeating, Uptown,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and for the encouragement.

I agree that I am relatively "high functioning." I maintain good friendships, have a close relationship with my brother, and I have been able to be successful in a very demanding career. But I was a fraud and a hypocryte. My polished, gentle public persona disguised a cruel, misogynistic monster at home. I papered over my ugliness, anger and shame with impulsive buying and self-medication. Nice clothes, nice cars, nice whiskies. Sh*tty, ugly husband.

I've been in and out of therapy for about 10 years now, which has helped greatly with self-awareness. I have certainly learned so much about myself over the past few months as I have had a lot of time alone for self-reflection, reading, DBT, and IC. Interestingly, none of previous therapists over the years ever suggested I might fit the criteria for BPD. I wish one of them had -- DBT has been a revelation for me, so lacking were my emotional regulation and interpersonal skills in my marriage. It has also helped me greatly with my empathy skills, which were virtually non-existent in my marriage. I didn't listen to her; I didn't respect her feelings. She largely catered to my every whim – until she didn’t – so really I had no incentive to try to see things from her perspective or to accommodate her desires. (My relationship with my mother was clearly a factor here.) Now W says she’s “finally listening to her own feelings.”

W would always, justifiably, lament the fact that I could be so self-aware, analytical and articulate with respect to my behavior -- after the fact, after a blow-up attack or similarly destructive incident. She found this enormously frustrating. I was able to understand many of the causes of my behavior but was never able to actually change it.

Since W left, she seems to be engaging in some MLC-like behaviors, albeit a very early MLC at 31 years old. She has been going out almost every night, drinking excessively, smoking pot, and she’s sleeping with her ex (and who knows who else). She even got a tattoo! She says she wanted to mark this period where she finally took control of her own happiness and asserted control over her body. (I must say I didn’t completely understand where that last part came from.) She said these things over dinner the last time we met, and they were hurtful to hear. But I tried to express validation, although I’m sure she could see the hurt and sullen expression on my face sitting across the table.

When we were still together W would sometimes say that I repressed certain aspects of her personality – the loud, loquacious, hilarious extremely social party girl. There may have been some truth to this. We have vastly different personalities, especially our public personas, and I was the dominant partner in the relationship. It seems like now a huge weight has been lifted for her, she finally has the freedom to “be herself” and she’s indulging in everything she felt she couldn’t do when we were together. I think the fact that she was relatively young when we started dating may be a factor here, too. I think her behavior is somewhat extreme, but I can completely understand why she would act this way under these circumstances.

I can’t say that I find this behavior appealing in the least. I notice my feelings for her changing slightly, as this is not the person I fell in love with. And it doesn’t help that I feel she has been very disrespectful in her treatment of me, especially in regards her seeking out a relationship with her ex. I am trying to focus on her needs and wants, and to be as empathetic as possible, with the thought being that she needs to heal from my behavior first, and then I can begin to heal from her hurtful behavior if/after we reconcile. But I have my limits. For the first time since our separation began, I’m starting to feel slightly detached from this new person. For the first time, I am feeling like I may actually be prepared to lose her, if that is really what she wants. 

This evening W is coming over to share a pizza and some conversation. As I mentioned, this was her idea. I expect she may bring up the divorce and she may want to start talking about the process. Instead of crying and begging as I’ve done when she’s previously raised the issue, I’m planning on being strong, stoic, and validating her feelings as much as I can. I am planning handling it in a very ‘alpha’ way, which doesn’t come naturally to me at all. I will tell her that I love her, and I feel that we can rebuild a much stronger, closer, more intimate marriage. But I can’t make her want to be with me, and I will respect her decision. I also feel like I want to tell her that I want to be with someone who respects and values me despite my flaws, and who respects the institution of marriage – but I will bite my tongue on that one.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Give defiant people what they want.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Give defiant people what they want.


What do they want?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Canardo said:


> What do they want?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she wants to be done with you, she needs to be completely done with you.

She is not allowed to pick and choose parts of you that she still wants.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Last night didn't go very well. She's done. She says she's been done since she left. However when I told her that it would be best if we never saw each other again, she balked. She said she would like to continue to see each other. She says she wants to "help me" get better, and help me get through this, as a friend. I think she's still trying to be a "fixer," as she was during our marriage. She also said it would be good for her to see me to talk about what went wrong and get some closure. I told her we have already talked about everything and we know what went wrong. I told her I don't want to be her friend. 

She said things might have been different had we had a solid foundation of a few great years. In fact our marriage has been difficult for her, on and off, since the very beginning. And she's right.

I think I know the next step -- time to detach.


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## Voltaire (Feb 5, 2013)

Canardo said:


> Last night didn't go very well. She's done. She says she's been done since she left. However when I told her that it would be best if we never saw each other again, she balked. She said she would like to continue to see each other. She says she wants to "help me" get better, and help me get through this, as a friend. I think she's still trying to be a "fixer," as she was during our marriage. She also said it would be good for her to see me to talk about what went wrong and get some closure. I told her we have already talked about everything and we know what went wrong. I told her I don't want to be her friend.
> 
> She said things might have been different had we had a solid foundation of a few great years. In fact our marriage has been difficult for her, on and off, since the very beginning. And she's right.
> 
> I think I know the next step -- time to detach.


Good. As Conrad said, done means done. Act that way. When you put it in such stark terms she may change her mind - but don't cling to that hope.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Canardo, I'm so sorry to hear that your marriage has not worked out -- despite the valient effort you've been making to restore it. I know how painful it is because my 15 year marriage ended too, despite my best efforts to fix it.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thank you, Uptown and Voltaire. W and I were discussing division of property and I lost my cool a little bit. I told her let's fight it out in court. She found this very upsetting and started crying. She was fearful that I would rake her through the coals in a litigation. I won't do that; but I was angry for being in this situation and I lost my cool. I also think I was trying to assert a modicum of power in a situation when I'm really powerless. She also said this reminded her of how I would fight with her in an argument, my short temper, and how I would often rake her through the coals during our marriage. Needless to say, this wasn't helpful to any possibility of R.

She wants a no fault divorce and she doesn't want anything from me except a few items of sentimental value -- no assets, no spousal support. My income is several times what she earns. I would be fine with splitting everything with her, but she doesn't want anything -- money has never been important to her and she just wants out. The house is in my name as I bought it shortly before we were married.

I am planning to ask her to move forward with the divorce. She hasn't done anything yet in that regard. She says we have made "good progress" and wants to continue to see me every week or two and talk more, purportedly to get closure and better understand. But if she's done, she's done, and I don't see the point in talking any more than we already have.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

I also want to mention that on the last two occasions we've met, when we have said goodbye, she has said "Bye, honey," which is how we often said goodbye when we were together. It's probably just reflexive behavior on her part but a little strange nonetheless.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Canardo said:


> I am planning to ask her to move forward with the divorce. She hasn't done anything yet in that regard. She says we have made "good progress" and wants to continue to see me every week or two and talk more, purportedly to get closure and better understand.* But if she's done, she's done,* and I don't see the point in talking any more than we already have.


Hi Canardo - 

I would just observe it is not always so black and white as you might think in these situations -- there is plenty of gray area in this limbo territory I have come to know so well. It is not uncommon, as evidenced by my own situation, for the walk-away spouse to have conflicted feelings -- and hence they flip-flip. On a given day, wekk or month, they go from being sure they want D vs. continuing to give it more time to see if they can come to grips with their fears and find a way to open their heart to you again. She once loved you very much, enough to say "I do," and invested six years with you. As much as she may feel the marriage has been "difficult for her from the beginning" she must have seen some good in the relationship to stay as long as she did. So even if the walker has doubts about the marriage for whatever reasosn, some of them do not easily let go. 

You've been separated six months now, but it is very possible for the limbo situation to drag on MUCH longer (mine is coming up on a year) if you leave the decision to take the action of filing for D in their hands vs. going ahead and filing for D yourself. There is no right way to do it -- as I have found, the only options are: A) Accept living in limbo a day at a time until you can't, because you want to keep the door open for the possibility of R, however remote it may seem; B) Give up and file for D yourself. Now if there is another man in the picture and infidelity issues in the mix, I could see how that might make a guy lean toward filing for D himself. 

In the mean time, under the Option A scenario, you don't have to allow cake eating. That is to say you can set limits on how much "hanging out as friends" you can tolerate. Most people on TAM advise practicing what is known as the 180 -- have you looked at that and considered it? Sorry, I don't have the link to it on hand, but it is referenced all throughout this site. The basic theme is, you detach with love, do not cling to expectations either way about the end result, take the focus off of them and put it on you and working on bettering yourself for your own sake however it turns out.

Hang in there -- it sounds like you have developed quite a lot of admirable self-awareness and are doing the work on yourself. Bravo to that! :smthumbup: I'm not saying to count on it of course, but there is a chance she may see these changes and have second thoughts about ending the marriage.

Best Wishes, - A12


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Canardo said:


> I also want to mention that on the last two occasions we've met, when we have said goodbye, she has said "Bye, honey," which is how we often said goodbye when we were together. It's probably just reflexive behavior on her part but a little strange nonetheless.


Also not uncommon. Can't read too much into it, but how I do it is if my sppouse uses a term of endearment in his communications with me, then I say it back. If not, then I refrain.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thanks A12. I agree that she may feel conflicted, although it is very hard to hear her be so certain and absolute about her decision from virtually the very beginning of the separation. I'm having trouble not believing what she says, despite the advice of 180. It is limbo, but not real limbo because she sounds so certain. She says things like "inevitable," "unchangeable," "final," "I'm very happy with my decision," "I will never regret this decision."

I have practiced the 180 to some extent, but only for a couple weeks at a time. We have had more contact recently, but I think I need to go NC for a while, at least a couple weeks. I have also done some damage on the behavioral front a few times, reverting to old patterns of expressing anger, as described above. She says these incidents confirm her decision. At the same time, she's always asking me about what I'm learning in therapy and about my alcohol consumption (or the lack thereof). She seems to have more than a passing interest in the changes I'm trying to make.

I don't think I would file for D myself right now, but I would like her to start the process at least. Maybe once the process is underway it will get real for her. 

As for an OM, I'm pretty sure her ex is out of the picture right now, but there is no doubt that she was having sex with him for a while. That hurts, but I think I could get over it eventually. At the same time, my feelings for her are starting to change slightly, and I feel like I am starting (very, very slowly) to detach.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Canardo said:


> I don't think I would file for D myself right now, but I would like her to start the process at least. Maybe once the process is underway it will get real for her.


Hi Canardo - I see where you're coming from, but I think the strategy of making the D "real" for the walk-away spouse works better when it is the left behind spouse who takes the action of files for the D (it cannot be done as a ploy in hopes that it will get them to change their minds, though this may happen for some). I can see how you might want her to back up her D talk with action, but because of the pattern that has been established, I'm not sure it will be helpful for you to press her to do anything, because she might see it as bullying. She wants to be supportive of you, which is great, it shows she still cares. The more you can show her you can also be supportive of her, not argue with her -- just keep discussions light hearted, I think that will be attractive to her  

Separation and limbo are HARD to cope with, no doubt about it (right there with you on that). But don't let it define your days or get too absorbed in it (I should take my own advice - LOL!).
Just take each day as it comes, keep working on you, and try to do some things to be good to yourself to treat yourself well. Do you have a gym membership? Sorry if it is stating the obvious, but exercise (lots of it!), healthy diet, sufficient sleep, not isolating (getting out and socializing) can all help optimize your quality of life. Hang in there!

Warmly, A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thanks again for your thoughts, A12. I really appreciate the advice and encouragement. Since she wants to do a no-fault, we just need to sign a separation agreement and have it filed and rubber stamped by the court. I would be asking her to prepare the separation agreement. (She's planning to go pro se.) 

This has indeed been by far the most difficult experience of my life. I have tried to keep interactions pleasant and light, but it has been a challenge because I feel that she has mistreated me during this process. And some measure of conflict seems to be an inherent part of separation and divorce, regardless of circumstances. I have been eating well, and I just started going to the gym. I need to go more often. Getting a life has been much harder. So much of my social life revolved around W's friends and family; she has completely cut me off from both. My friends are fewer, and older with children, etc. Frankly, I hate my life right now and can't seem to find a way to make it much better.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Dear Canardo - 

I know how you feel -- some days are bettr than others, but I have surely also had times during this difficult process of feeling uncontrollably depressed, like my life is over. I have to be very careful about the messaging and self-talk I allow in my head, so as to avoid wallowing and self-pity. It is very important to do all that we can to stay positive. You can start with the little things, like make a list of all the things in your life that you are grateful for. For me it is: nice house and roof over my head, comfortable bed, lots of clothes and shoes (ha, ha -- I'm a bit of a fashionista!), my cats, my CrossFit gym, my health, the physical capability to do CrossFit, my job, my friends, etc. Make that list and keep it by your bed. Look at it every night before going to sleep. These are the assets you are going to be building on to make your life better  One thing that helps me too, is I started volunteering at a local food pantry for a few hours on the weekends. It helps build up my self-esteem to help someone else, as well as keep me humble and grateful for all that I do have. Also, you meet some fun and interesting people!

Just a few more ideas, sorry to rattle on -- I just sympathize because I'm trying to dig my way out of a similar trench.

Cheers, - A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Those are great ideas, A12. My list would be identical to yours except for the CrossFit gym! Although I have too many clothes and shoes.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

I just wanted to say it occurred to me that I will add to my gratitude list the fact that, regardless of how it works out, I was able to have such a deep and meaningful love with my H, and what a gift that has been to me in my life, because it showed me that such love is possible. I don't know if you would feel the same way about the blessing of what you had with your wife, and what a gift it was while it lasted, regardless of the outcome?


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Canardo said:


> My friends are fewer, and older with children, etc.


You mentioned that you self-medicate with alcohol. Have you joined AA yet? You will meet friends there for sure. It sounds like you might need it.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Canardo -- First of all, kudos to you for seeking the help you need, and tackling your BPD and depression. I am now divorced from someone with major depression, OCD, anxiety, and severe PD traits that lean towards Borderline and Narcissism. 

You mentioned a couple of things that jumped out at me. You talked about her personality when you two married, then later said she's become like that again after being apart from you (albeit in a 'pendulum swinging to the other extreme' kind of way right now), and finished by saying you don't find that behavior attractive in the least, because she's not like the girl you married. I wonder if you are seeing her and yourself with different eyes now that you've been receiving treatment. You were a different person back then, and maybe the person you are becoming (meaning: healthy) would not be attracted to her, nor would she be attracted to you. Just a thought.

Another thought from someone who lived many years with someone who was a very needy, emotionally abusive, demanding person with mental illness that wasn't very well controlled: it takes a toll on the other spouse. Big time. I didn't have to deal with drinking on top of it, either. His anger scared me, too, when he threw things, and put a dent in the wall with his fist. To be in the position she was in for years, as you described it, really sounds frankly dreadful. She may very well still care about you, but it's a much bigger risk to put herself in what was possibly a very scary, and certainly chaotic situation than it is to have a pizza. And it certainly sounds like she has her own issues, as well, and you haven't mentioned whether or not she's in any kind of counseling. 

I had my own issues which allowed me to get involved with my Ex, which I've been working on since we split. When I first moved out, and we were both still in IC (but never went to MC), I hoped (and he held out that hope, too) that once we were 'healthy' we'd find ourselves back together again someday. Well, number one, he's stopped working on himself, but even if he had, I don't see him the same way I did and I no longer entertain even the slightest hope for a reconciliation. We are different people now. I no longer find his personality attractive. _It was partly our dysfunction that made us attractive to each other. _ I've heard similar things when two alcoholics get together and one gets clean. It was the partying and drinking that held them together. Without that, there's nothing left. 

It just may be that, after you've gotten your BPD and other things under control, you find that the two of you just won't be compatible anymore.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

angelpixie - Thank you for your thoughts. There is no doubt that W's caretaking instinct and extreme accommodativeness were part of my attraction to her, and my neediness and instability attracted her to me. She thought she could fix me, and I wanted unconditional love and to be taken care of. But there was definitely more than that to our mutual attraction. 

I think my feelings for her have changed slightly because of what I have been through -- the rejection, her relationship with her ex, the meanness, the coldness, the complete lack of empathy. She has definitely gone from victim to perpetrator, and vice-versa for me. However, I still have a lot of love left for her, and I think we can overcome my resentment from the separation should we reconcile.

I also agree that my behavior over the years has taken a huge toll on her. It has changed her. For a time she found fulfillment in the chaos and instability. But now her defenses are way up, more than I have ever experienced, and she seems afraid of experiencing any emotion or vulnerability with me. These days she can't even look at me when we talk. She wants to feel safe and protected, and I could not provide that for her. I want to show her that she can trust me, but any small expression of anger just confirms her fears. And it's likely that she just will never be able to trust me and love me in that way.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Arendt - While I definitely abused alcohol, I don't think I am a good candidate for AA. At my worst I was consuming 2-3 drinks a day. I have since stopped altogether without a single relapse. I simply have no desire for alcohol. I figure if I'm able to teatotal during the most trying period of my life, I am not addicted to it.

I'm sure I would meet some interesting people, though -- one of the best things about any group therapy.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

An update:

We received our tax refund and I send W an email letting her know and telling that I will wire her share of the refund to her bank account. W called to thank me for doing our taxes and to propose that we meet for dinner and I can give her the check in person.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi Canardo - 

That was nice of you to take care of the taxes -- great that you got a refund! Did you accept her dinner invitation, or are you thinking it over? 

If you do meet with her, remember: keep it light and breezy, and you don't be the one to bring up relationship issues, or separation agreement terms, divorce plans, etc. If she brings it up, then you can respond, but stay grounded -- calm, cool and dispassionate.

Wishing the best for you!

Cheers, - A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thank you, A12. 

Yes, I did accept the invitation. I am determined to stay cool, calm and dispassionate. During our last conversation I lost my cool a little about her taking some wedding gifts with her when she moved out without discussing with me. She said my expression of anger confirmed for her that I haven't changed, and that's "who I am." This was a set-back for me, but I am proud of the progress I have made so far in emotional regulation.

As for discussing the relationship, this may be difficult to avoid because W says that for her the main purpose of these meetings is to talk about what went wrong. I will certainly let her be the one to bring it up only if she wants to. She also says that seeing me is helping her get closure, and that she wants to help me during this process. For my part, I feel like we have had several long conversations and we're both very cognizant of what went wrong. I don't need any additional closure. My motives for seeing her are different than hers. I want the opportunity to show her a different kind of person -- someone who's cool and calm, and especially someone with whom she can feel safe and protected.

Having said that, I feel conflicted about seeing her -- and with increasing frequency (started as once a month, then two weeks, and now about one week). In some ways our conversations recently have been more open, honest, and self-aware than ever before. I'm concerned that these meetings will make me feel closer to her and will make it even more excruciating to detach from her if this does ultimately end in divorce as she says it will. 

A12 - I also want to say that I'm very grateful for your thoughtful, positive and supportive posts in this community!


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Canardo, you sound very self-aware, and that's great. I don't know how these meetings will turn out. On one hand, when she sees evidence of anger, she says it confirms that you haven't changed. Yet she increases, rather than decreases, the frequency of contact, so perhaps, even subconsciously, she is regaining a tiny bit of trust here and there. 

Have you two ever gone to counseling together? There are counselors that work with people through a break-up, though I know you don't want that. I would wonder if having a third party there would provide a sense of safety for her, while allowing you both to perhaps talk about things and deal with conflicts in a different way than you have in the past, again showing her the skills you're learning in DBT and elsewhere.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

angelpixie said:


> Canardo, you sound very self-aware, and that's great. I don't know how these meetings will turn out. On one hand, when she sees evidence of anger, she says it confirms that you haven't changed. Yet she increases, rather than decreases, the frequency of contact, so perhaps, even subconsciously, she is regaining a tiny bit of trust here and there.
> 
> Have you two ever gone to counseling together? There are counselors that work with people through a break-up, though I know you don't want that. I would wonder if having a third party there would provide a sense of safety for her, while allowing you both to perhaps talk about things and deal with conflicts in a different way than you have in the past, again showing her the skills you're learning in DBT and elsewhere.


Thank you for the kind words. After that moment of anger passed, and after W told me it just confirmed for her "who I am," she said, "OK, that was a minor set-back. I think we're making really good progress, so let's put that behind us." Of course, "progress" for her meant progress towards resolving the end of our marriage. But it seems like an unusual phrase to use in this context. I couldn't help wanting to interpret it differently, as progress towards R. I know I shouldn't read so much into her words. I guess I'm naturally inclined to over-analyze -- I'm very analytical, probably to a fault.

There is no doubt that she is regaining a bit of trust. Earlier in the separation she couldn't be in the same room as me! (In fairness this was after I basically stalked her at her new apartment.) She says she can never trust me the way one should be able to trust a spouse. That the best I can hope for is that she trust me as a friend. But she knows I feel I can't truly be her friend. My therapist says that if she can trust me as a friend, she most likely can ultimately trust me as a husband. But she may not be willing to let herself trust me, if that makes any sense. 

We did do some MC. We started a few weeks before we were separated. But W ended it abruptly a few weeks after we were separated, saying she is exhausted, can't work on our relationship, and has no hope for us. I could tell that she was never fully engaged in it.

I have thought about asking her to do MC again, but right now the time is not ripe for that. If I asked her to do MC it wouldn't be to help us with the break-up -- that wouldn't feel right because she knows that's not what I want. OTOH it's possible that productive MC can lead to some hope for reconciliation, regardless of the original motivation. Do you think it would be ethical to ask her to do MC as a way to help with the end of the marriage, even if my motives are different?


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

No, it wouldn't because that wouldn't be truthful, and you are trying to rebuild trust with her. So perhaps for now, just engaging with her in a way that shows a.) that you are really working on yourself and changing, and b.) these changes are real and permanent, will be the best. 

If you've been reading on TAM, then you've certainly seen all about the 180, and that the purpose of that is not to get the spouse back, but to work on yourself, so that you are OK no matter what happens. It may _also_ result in the wayward taking another look at the LBS and seeing changes that make him/her more attractive. Which may lead to R. 

You're not doing the 180, totally, but I think the idea is the same. You are working on yourself, for yourself, first and foremost. 

And as I mentioned in a previous post, she has her own responsibility to see that she also needs help. As someone who has been through similar things, and also knows many women who have, too, I know that you can't just do it on your own. Let's be honest: If you are changed and different, and she is the same in how she deals with things, needs to be a caretaker to find her validation, etc., an R won't work anyway.

She really needs to see her part in the equation of your relationship and get healed herself. You can't force her to do anything, but perhaps seeing your example might lead her. You never know.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

I agree, angelpixie. I recently asked her if she takes any responsibility for the destruction of our marriage. She said No. She said she wouldn't do anything differently, that she tried and tried and tried to "get through to me," and she ultimately gave up.

She does have her own issues, and she is doing IC. Although she recently pared it down from once a week to once every three weeks. I found this puzzling under the circumstances but haven't pressed her on it. I also don't think her IC is very effective. The dysfunction is clearly still there: She, admittedly, wants to continue to be fixer/caretaker by helping me through this. She knows this but still seems to be pursuing this path. OTOH I am still emotionally dependent on her: When she's warm, kind, and reaches out to me -- I'm happy. When she's cold and distant (which has been the case throughout this separation until the past few weeks), I'm devastated.

I am working on myself, but it seems my main outlet for "practicing" my newly learned skills is through interactions with W. In a way this has been positive because our separation has been so distressing -- it's the only real source of conflict in my life right now -- and practicing distress tolerance and emotional regulation under these circumstances is like baptism by fire!


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Well, yes, you're dealing with multiple issues, and she's both a trigger and a practice opportunity...Hmm...

Do you find that the DBT is helping you with those reactions that you have to her treatment of you? I know other people with BPD on TAM highly recommend IFS, or Internal Family Systems therapy. I have read some of it, and I wonder if you think it might be helpful to you, too. I don't have BPD, but I've been in a DBT group (some modules anyway) for about a year and a half (we actually just talked about disbanding today). My IC and I have also been using things similar to IFS. All of it together has been very helpful in developing a stronger sense of self, allowing me and the others in my group to become less dependent on what others think of us, or their reactions to us, for self-worth or validation. 

About Internal Family Systems


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Hi angelpixie. I have found DBT tremendously helpful. It has especially helped me gain some distance from my emotions, preventing them from leading to self-destructive behavior. I have to admit that I find it challenging to stay aware in the heat of the moment, when my heart is racing and blood is rushing to my head. But this is what I'm practicing in my interactions with my wife. I think I've made some good progress.

I have also learned a completely different style of communication than what I was used to -- which was basically say whatever came to my mind, with no filter at all. 

Thank you for the link -- very interesting. My IC draws heavily on family systems therapy, although he doesn't explicitly use the managers-firefighters-exiles model. I'm find it very helpful so far.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

I'm feeling increasingly angry at my wife these days. I'm angry at how she's treated me throughout this process. 

I'm angry at her adultery, that she wanted to get laid so desperately that she she actively sought a sexual relationship with her exboyfriend, who she dumped eight years ago -- so weak, so cliche. I have lost respect for her. I haven't had any desire to date anyone, but I do still desire her miss being sexually intimate with her. 

I'm angry about the persistent lying. She defends this by saying she didn't want to hurt me, and she was concerned about my suicidality.

I'm angry because I'm lonely.

I'm angry because every time we see each other she seems to be fixated on talking about dividing our wedding gifts (although she recently apologized for this). 

I'm angry that she wasn't there for me emotionally when I was grieving my father, when I needed her more than ever.

I'm angry that she has taken absolutely no responsibility for our difficulties. She says she would have done nothing differently.

I feel disrespected. I feel trampled upon. I feel very tempted to bring these things up when we see each other on Tuesday, but I will do my best to resist. My therapist thinks it's premature to talk about these things. He says now is the time to heal her wounds; my turn for healing will come if we reconcile and I have to accept being in the down position for now. So for now I will channel my anger to steel myself to be cool, calm and dispassionate.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi Canardo - 

Good to hear your update, and wise move getting your angry feelings out on TAM -- this is a good place to share those emotions, which are a normal part of the well-known "stages of grief" model. It is natural for people to pass in and out of the stages, as you move through this process -- variations of sadness, anger, bargaining, etc.

I think your IC is right -- you have a right to your angry emotions, but it is best not to express those with her yet. Take them out at the gym, on TAM, in IC, with friends who love and support you.

I still struggle with being alone in the evenings, and I also miss the companionship and intimacy I had with my H -- but when those feelings come, the only way is to open up that "tool kit" of coping skills and put them to use. Also, for those of us who believe in a higher power, when it comes to anger and resentment, we are commonly told to pray for the person with who we are upset. Pray for their happiness, peace and well-being. It may sound silly, but in my experience, it works! Give it a try, if you can, and see if it helps.

Hang in there and keep us posted. 

Cheers,- A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thanks, A12. I definitely feel like I'm beginning to go through a different emotional stage. You're right that opening up the toolkit is the way to go when I get those feelings. So much of our problems stemmed from the fact that when I felt angry, ashamed, or humiliated -- I was only able to express my emotions in the form of anger (just like my father). I didn't have the toolkit for dealing with these emotions more effectively and less destructively. I didn't have any tools like mindfulness, behavioral chain analysis, distraction and soothing. Even now I am struggling to consistently apply these tools to our relationship, such as it is. But I feel like I've made great strides from where I was a few months ago, and I'm continuing to improve. 

I didn't realize how destructive these expressions of anger were, how they undermined her trust for me and pushed her away. To the contrary, in many ways my behavior was positively reinforced by our dynamic. Our conflicts were often characterized by a mutually reinforcing, destructive pattern of behavior: my transgression, followed by her forgiveness, my sense of fulfillment at being forgiven and being loved unconditionally, and her fulfillment from trying to fix things only with love and care. Clearly this was not a sustainable way to live. 

I do not believe in higher power, but actually I agree with your thoughts about prayer. For me it is slightly different, but basically the same: When faced with these emotions, I try to love and forgive her unconditionally; I try to empathize with what she's going through; I feel pity that she feels compelled to debase herself; I remind myself that much of her behavior is that of a hurt and damaged person -- not her true "self." I don't always succeed, but I try. 

One reason it's so difficult to empathize with her is that she has shown so little emotional vulnerability or sadness about this separation and our divorce. She has mostly shown me anger, coldness and meanness, much more than she ever has when we were together. It's like the tables have turned, and now she wants to be the perpetrator. For now, I try to focus on the damage I have done to her and the pain I have caused her -- I know it's there, but her defenses are way up. She's afraid to let herself vulnerable again. I hope that she can heal from this. I hope she can begin to trust again. And I hope that some time down the road she can help me heal from the pain she has caused, and we can both heal together. But I know that time is not now, and I know that it may never come.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi Canardo - 

Absolutely you have made great strides! I can really relate to how you are feeling about wanting both of you to heal, and wishing it could happen together rather than apart. In my case, after prolonged (one year) waffling, my husband ultimately decided he could not live with his fear that he could never trust me again (because of my addiction issues, in my case). I had hoped for a different outcome, but respect his wishes, and also realize it is futile if he could not open his heart to me again. Not saying this will be the case for you, and I am rooting for you guys! But the work I did on myself during our protratced separation has definitely helped me cope regardless, and be better prepared to start a happier, healthier new chapter.

Cheers, - A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

I'm looking forward to seeing W tonight, but definitely less so than on previous occasions. I'm feeling exhausted, physically and emotionally, from this whole experience. I almost don't see the point of getting together. I don't fully understand why wants to go out to dinner with me right now. I find it hard to be around her. It makes me want to be physically close to her, but I'm afraid to initiate any physical contact with her (I don't mean sexual contact). 

I feel angry. I feel a growing distance between us that may be difficult to overcome -- for both of us. I'm starting to feel pretty good about myself and about the man I'm slowly becoming. I'm starting to feel like she's the one losing out by leaving. I feel like I'm in a much better place emotionally than she is right now. That she's distracting herself from her feelings with partying, sex and drugs, while I'm facing my issues head-on. 

Yet, I'm afraid of how I'll react when she says something intended to hurt me -- which she almost certainly will. I don't want to hear, again, how happy she is without me. I don't want to hear about her new life and how supposedly awesome it is without me. It's like she feels the need to constantly validate her decision by telling herself, and me, how good she feels about it. I don't want to chit chat and pretend everything is normal between us. I don't know what's left to talk about. I'm sure we'll come up with something.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi Canardo - 

If you decide to go through with seeing her for dinner tonight (and you have the option to cancel, if you feel like you can't handle seeing her as of now), you can put boundaries on the conversation. You are anticipating she will say hurtful things (as she may well have done in the past), but we don't know this will be the case for tonight, yet. Go into it with the idea of keeping things light, and you are just there to give her her share of the tax refund check. Then if she starts in on relationship talk that makes you uncomfortable, you can just say something like: "(Sweet Pea), I'm not OK with the direction this discussion is going. I am happy to discuss our marital issues either in couples counselling or in mediation if itis about the terms of our split, but not over dinner. I hope you can respect my perspective." 

What do you think? You have made tremendous strides, so hold on to that and keep your chin up and be proud of the man you are becoming! Don't over-think about what's in her head (mind reading is crazy-making) and don't react at all to anything provocative she may say. You can also use the infamous TAM phrase: "I'm sorry you feel that way."  

Warmly, - A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thanks, A12. I will definitely try to keep things light, as hard as that is for me right now. I don't want to psych myself out too much. I'm happy to have relationship talk (as we have been doing) but without her passive aggressive (or sometimes aggressive!) jabs at me. If she starts going in that direction, or if she starts crowing about how great her life is without me, I will certainly redirect the conversation as you suggest. 

I must say that I loathe the phrase "I'm sorry you feel that way." It drives me up the way when she says it to me -- it strikes me as so aggressive. It has definitely been a trigger for me in the past. Either you're sorry for something you did or you're not, but being sorry that someone else feels a certain way doesn't really make any sense to me. "I regret that you feel that way" makes much more sense, and is much less passive-aggressive and provocative. I don't think I've ever uttered the phrase. On the other hand, I do like "I'm not okay with that"! It's focused on my feelings, rather than those of the other person. That's also consistent with DBT's method of communication (focus on how someone is affecting your feelings, rather than judging them, etc.). Ok, rant over.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Canardo said:


> I must say that I loathe the phrase "I'm sorry you feel that way." It drives me up the way when she says it to me -- it strikes me as so aggressive. It has definitely been a trigger for me in the past. Either you're sorry for something you did or you're not, but being sorry that someone else feels a certain way doesn't really make any sense to me. "I regret that you feel that way" makes much more sense, and is much less passive-aggressive and provocative.


Hi Canardo - 

You make an intersting point there. I think the intent of "I'm sorry you feel that way" is about not being defensive (unless you know for sure you are in the wrong, in which case an admission of apology may be warranted). But if they are trying to blame negative feelings on you when it is really their own reaction they are choosing, it is a way of saying, "Sorry, Sweetie, but I am not responsible for your feeling and reactions." It may just be sematics, "I regret" may work the same way, not sure.

Good luck tonight, and keep us posted!

Cheers,- A12


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Something like I really like about DBT is the idea of 'effective' vs. 'ineffective' behaviors/actions/emotions, etc. If you feel that getting too heavy into relationship talk is not effective for what you want to accomplish while seeing her, then take action to stop it. If it feels like the tone of the conversation, even if talking about your relationship, still accomplishes something you wanted (more open communication, understanding, etc.), then continue it.

It isn't always about right or wrong, or some other adversarial mindset. It's adaptable.

And I totally agree with A12. If things start to get out of hand, you can end the conversation if re-routing it doesn't work. Just do it with respect and in a way that leaves you feeling good about yourself and how you handled it.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

angelpixie said:


> Just do it with respect and in a way that leaves you feeling good about yourself and how you handled it.


Very well said. This will be my mantra for all my communications going forward.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

I spent the weekend going through our closets and I pulled out the some boxes that belong to W (mostly clothes). I am planning on asking her to take them to her place. I suspect she may not have enough space for everything in her apartment, but I feel like I should at least ask her to take it. I don't want to come off as rude, but it would be easier for me if I don't have so much of her belongings in my house. I think it would also show her that I'm moving on and trying to detach.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Fair enough. I did the same thing after a couple of months when it became apparent my H was not coming back anytime soon (if ever). I took down the wedding pictures and changes all the artwork on the walls almost immediately (who needs the heart break staring them in the face every day!). I asked him to please clear out the rest of his stuff, while I was away on a business trip, which he did. Though there are still plenty of "common property" things around the house that remind me of "us" -- they must go, and that's on my spring "to do " list, including completely re-decorating and replacing all the furniture, especially the bed :-(


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

My dinner with W last night went well. It was mostly chit-chat about our respective day-to-day lives. But whenever W talks about things she's doing to further entrench herself in her new life -- e.g., buying (expensive) furniture and appliances for her new apartment, buying a new car (we only would need one if we were together) -- I normally get visibly sullen or upset, or I would say something like, "Well, you can always sell it when we get back together." She could see me becoming sad when she was talking about these things. I told her I missed her, and she said "Thank you." I said, you don't need to tell me you miss me too; I know you do. And she said, "Yeah, sometimes." Overall, I think I comported myself very well during the conversation, trying to put on a positive, cheerful attitude, and told her that I was feeling good about myself and the man I'm becoming. She also asked me about my therapy, which she always does. She noted, wistfully, that it's approaching 6 months since she left. I responded by saying (sarcastically) "We should celebrate our half-anniversary! Let's pop the sparkling cider!" 

I invited her to continue the conversation at my house over tea, but she declined saying she was tired. I didn't push the issue -- I was exhausted, too.

After we left the restaurant, I walked her to the train station. I put my arm around her shoulder, and she put hers around my waist as we continued to walk together. While while we walked holding each other, she became sad and let out a kind of plaintive whine. I said, "Don't be sad. We'll be okay." Then we switched to holding hands in our own unique way, just as we always did. 

As we reached the station, I asked her what does it mean to her to completely trust a spouse or a lover, to feel safe with them. She said it means never doubting that the person loves her, no matter what is happening in the relationship. I apologized for causing her to doubt my love for her. "I didn't know how to love," I said. When we arrived at the station, we embraced warmly and gave each other a kiss on the cheek. She told me to send her love to our cat. And she told me, "Keep your chin up. You're doing great." I walked home, alone.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

I woke up this morning feeling very sad. Seeing her reminded me how much I love her. Seeing her last night reminded me of the strong connection we still have, despite everything. All of the pain she has caused me disappeared while we were together. Maybe that's rug-sweeping. I know that she loves me deep inside, despite everything. But I also know she's convinced that divorce is the right thing for her to do, and that she can never regain her trust for me, that she can't regain that "in love" feeling. I don't agree, but I can't tell her how to feel. I felt so deeply regretful how badly I damaged our marriage, perhaps irreparably, over several years -- how I didn't love her the way a husband should. I began to sob while driving to work. I want her back. I miss her so much.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I'm sorry, Canardo. You are right, you can't change her. But it sounds like you handled things very well last night. For it to end like it did was a positive, even though you are hurting now because it didn't go better. It also didn't deteriorate as you feared it might.

Don't give up. We never know what the future will bring. She is still going through a lot herself. You're right. It will take a lot for her to regain that trust. For every year that things were terrible in her life with you, it will take time for her to recover. You can't expect it to come back quickly, even with you working on yourself. And, unfortunately, she really needs to get help herself. She's in the high of being out of a chaotic situation right now, and it's fun buying new furniture, exercising independence, etc. That will wear off, and hopefully, lead her to realize that those things aren't buying her peace and happiness. Hopefully, that happens sooner rather than later. If you really love her, you may need to wait and be patient, as you'd want her to be for you. 

That doesn't mean losing yourself, however.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Canardo - Sorry you are hurting. I've been in your shoes and know exactly how you feel -- same emotions I've been going through. Be good to yourself today, and do something nice for yourself. Give yourself all that love you have inside you! Hang in there and keep us posted.

(((((Hugs)))))))) A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thank you so much for your support, A12 and angelpixie. I need to be patient, and if there's any chance of R, I know it will take a long time to regain her trust. I know there's not going to be a "deus ex machina" moment. It is a long process, and it may not end the way I want it to. It just feels like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.


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## Odaat (Nov 21, 2012)

Canardo, waiting on that deus ex machina is one of the big things thats been killing me these last few months of my separation. 

Between groups, IC, seeing my kids, and working on myself I keep waiting on that "moment" where she all of a sudden has a change of heart. It's not happening though and it sucks for me to accept that. I didn't mean for that to come off as harsh as it did, especially because who knows what could happen, but it's been something I've had to face.

To make it worse, the "who knows what could happen" won't let me completely let go of hope. 

Chin up, I think/hope/believe it will get better.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Yep, I hear you -- same boat. Let's hope it's not the Titanic


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Canardo said:


> All of the pain she has caused me disappeared while we were together. Maybe that's rug-sweeping.


Perhaps. Yet, if you have strong BPD traits, it is far more likely to be the result of black-white thinking -- wherein you tend to categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad." BPDers tend to allow their conscious minds to be in touch with only one set of feelings at a time, because they feel extremely uncomfortable when experiencing strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, grey areas, and uncertainties. 

This is one reason that BPDers tend to flip back and forth between adoring and devaluing their loved ones. Significantly, BPDers apply this B-W thinking (i.e., "splitting") to themselves as well. This is the main reason they usually are so unwilling to admit -- even to themselves -- that they made a mistake. Such an admission, by the BPDer's way of thinking, means that he must be "all bad."


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Perhaps. Yet, if you have strong BPD traits, it is far more likely to be the result of black-white thinking -- wherein you tend to categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad." BPDers tend to allow their conscious minds to be in touch with only one set of feelings at a time, because they feel extremely uncomfortable when experiencing strong mixed feelings, ambiguities, grey areas, and uncertainties.
> 
> This is one reason that BPDers tend to flip back and forth between adoring and devaluing their loved ones. Significantly, BPDers apply this B-W thinking (i.e., "splitting") to themselves as well. This is the main reason they usually are so unwilling to admit -- even to themselves -- that they made a mistake. Such an admission, by the BPDer's way of thinking, means that he must be "all bad."


Hi, Uptown. Perhaps there may be an element of splitting here, but I have tried to maintain a realistic view of my wife and her flaws, which have come into greater relief during this separation. That has been one of the more difficult things for me to come to terms with: How is she capable of such recklessness and cruelty? Is this the same woman I married? How has my behavior affected her personality and behavior? Have I damaged her permanently? Have I caused her to become so mean? Have I diminished her faith in humanity, which was so strong?

Recognizing all these feelings, I do still love her -- because I know that she can be a wonderful, loving, caring, woman, but also because I can see my role in influencing the personality changes I'm witnessing. It is a more complicated, and perhaps more realistic, love than before. But I think that is actually healthier for any romantic relationship. Certainly healthier than my total dependency on her unconditional love and forgiveness for validation.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Last night was one of the hardest nights for me since the separation. I really thought I was doing much better emotionally, but last night I experienced a huge wave of sadness. I was sobbing uncontrollably, for what seemed like an eternity. I was in so much pain. I hadn't felt like that since my wife told me she wanted to divorce and I almost lost my lunch. I wanted so desperately to reach out to W for some comfort. But I didn't want to show her sadness or weakness just one day after showing a strong, positive attitude at dinner. But then I succumbed and texted her:

Canardo: "I'm struggling tonight." 
W: "I'm sorry, Canardo. Be kind to yourself. Be gentle." 
C: "Thank you. Tomorrow will be better."
W: "Yes, it will."
C: "Good night, sweetness."
W: "Good night, Canardo. Feel better. You're a wonderful person."


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi Canardo - 

Sorry you had a rought night and such painful feelings, but you know the lumber (2x4s) is going to come out for texting her -- that was a big "no, no." You do not want to show her that you are struggling, or go to her for consolation -- not a winning stratgey. I really urge you to find someplace else to take those feelingas and get that support and consolation when you need it -- it could be a friend, a relative, IC, a supoprt group, your journal, or just here on TAM. But not to her, OK? You are trying to re-wire the dynamic where she is mothering you na dbeing the fixer, right? In that case, don't be her victim or her little boy -- you've been doing so great with all the work on your self to become more secure and grounded in who you are, and ditch the (co-dependent) need for external validation. Rise up and be that guy she can respect and look up to and lean on, and not have to do the care taking. You can do this! We all know from painful experience, itis not easy -- it takes courage and determination, but it can be done! And regardless of the outcome, it will pay of by leaving you in a better position to move forward with a happier, healthier furture.

Hope you are feeling better today. Don't contact her, OK?

Warmly, - A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

You are so right, A12. I'm just so tired of being alone. I'm so tempted to tell her to get on with it so we can both move on.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Canardo, I have felt the same way at times, and struggle with he "being alone" thing, too, but you know what? Even though it is a difficult transition, when you've grown used to being part of a couple, there is a lot of value in learning to get comfortable with ourselves existentially, just as we are -- learning to be still with ourselves, accept ourselves, love ourselves. Even if you were to go out and hook up with someone new or just start dating casually, would your heart really be in it? Or would you just be looking for the external validation of someone or something outside yourself to validate your worth? Just some food for thought, because I know the temptation to want to force "closure" as a means of easing my anxiety over the limbo, the uncertainty. Also, as a way to grasp for control because I felt so powerless. It might make you feel better for a short while, but then you will have the doubts churning inside, about "what if I hadn't rushed it...?" etc.

It is your call, but I think you will do better to stay the course of working on yourself, getting grounded in yourself, becoming and happy and confident with who you are regardless of any rxternal circumstance will make you the stronger person. It won't guarantee a desired outcome of R, but it will put you on the footing for whatever the future may hold. Not saying anything here I wasn't told myself, so I'm trying to follow the same advice and just accept that it is harder some days than others, but don't let anything knock you off your square  

Best Wishes,- A12


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

A12 is totally right. I didn't get the outcome I wanted...but I got the 'right' one, in my situation. And truth be told, I asked my Ex right away if he wanted a divorce because I didn't want things dragged out. He said both "no" and "I don't know"...for months. It did drag out. BUT -- during that time I started IC and reading and looking at thngs. At first because he promised we'd start MC if we both went to IC for a few months first. He didn't keep his part of the bargain, but in the meantime, my IC was already helping me enough that it was opening my eyes about him. Very slowly and a little at a time. I was also getting a little stronger, bit by bit. 

I realized later that the change in me couldn't have been rushed. I really did need that time for things to all come together, for it all to make sense, for me to get stronger. Believe me, at the time, I felt just like you did. But I think we all have to learn to trust 'the process,' C. It is going to take time for all of the things you're learning in DBT to become more automatic. Our group went through the modules we were doing multiple times over more than a year and a half, meeting every week for 90 minutes. It took that long for us to feel like we could move on. You have only been doing thing for a short time, correct? It needs to become more a part of you. Let what happened (your text to her) be an indicator that you still have learning and work to do. *And that's OK.* 

The last thing you want is to go through all of this, and have it be for naught. A12 is right, no matter how things turn out with your W, this is a chance at a whole new you. Take the time, do the work, and let it happen. Do it for you, not to get her back or win validation or approval or love from her. If you two do reconcile, it would be best if you did it because you *want* to, and not because you *need* to.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thanks, A12 and angelpixie. I read both of your posts multiple times. There is so much wisdom and thoughtfulness here. I completely agree with both of you, but I'm going through a lot of complex emotions, as I'm sure both of you have. I am feeling exhausted by this experience, and less determined to try to make my marriage work. I guess it is the limbo that's hard. I feel lonely. I feel ashamed and humiliated -- both from my own and my wife's actions. I feel like I'm being mistreated and disrespected. 

I also don't have a very strong support network, and I just hate my life as it is right now. I think it would feel better to just get it over with and start anew. In a sense I think that would truly be taking care of myself instead of looking to someone else for validation. I am determined to continue to become a better person and a better partner, regardless of what happens with W. 

In a strange way I may be trying to instigate a conflict with W, as things have been going well lately between us. I feel like I want to bring things to a head, and I feel more prepared if/when it happens.

W texted me last night proposing that we have a "phone date" later today. I agreed, although I'm not sure what she wants to talk about. I suspect she just wants to chat. I don't have much to say to her right now. I'm a little concerned about what my emotional state will be when we talk, because I'm definitely feeling a angry and indignant. I will be cool and calm.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Hello again. An update: W and I talked on the phone for over an hour yesterday. Overall, it was a very pleasant, warm conversation. Before we said goodbye she proposed we get together for lunch today. We went to a restaurant close to her apartment, after which she invited me up to her place. I reminded her that she previously told me that she would never invite me to her new place! We continued the conversation over tea for another two hours. It was mostly chit-chat, almost normal husband-wife conversation, with a little relationship talk sprinkled in. 

She was much more affectionate with me than she has been during this entire separation -- lots of holding hands, she asked me for a shoulder rub, she lay down on my lap. All initiated by her. At one point she spontaneously gave me a kiss on the cheek, totally out of nowhere. 

She also showed me yet more emotional vulnerability. She told me how sad she was about what's going on between us, and started to cry -- the first time she has shown me any tears since she left.

At the same time, she continued to talk the talk like we're definitely getting divorced. She would talk about her future plans -- for the summer, for next fall, getting a dog, etc. -- in the first person singular, without any sign of my presence in her future. I guess this part is par for the course pretty much since she left.

Overall, it was a really nice get together. I think I was warm, funny and very composed. We've no seen each other twice in less than one week.

As we were saying goodbye, she gave me another big kiss on the cheek and a very strong hug. As she closed the door I could see that she was trying to hold back tears. 

Obviously any semblance of 180 is out the window right now. We will both be traveling over the next couple weeks, so there won't be a lot of contact, which I think is good right now. I'm not sure exactly what is going on, or what will happen in the coming weeks and months. It's hard not to see a lot of ambivalence of her part. Or maybe she is just really sad that she will be divorcing me. Either way, I'm going to roll with it and see where it goes.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

I forgot to mention that at one point during our conversation, she started crying and I said, "I'm sorry." She responded with "I'm sorry, too." This was the first time she's shown any contrition or acknowledged any kind of culpability for the pain she has caused me.


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## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Canardo said:


> In a strange way I may be trying to instigate a conflict with W, as things have been going well lately between us. I feel like I want to bring things to a head, and I feel more prepared if/when it happens.


Interesting. Could sabotaging yourself or relationships be a pattern that you need to work on in IC?


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Arendt said:


> Interesting. Could sabotaging yourself or relationships be a pattern that you need to work on in IC?


I do have a pattern of sabotaging my relationships. That is exactly right, Arendt.I've had two serious, committed relationships, each for 7 years. I destroyed them both in basically the same ways: codependency, neediness, emotional instability, menacing temper tantrums. I am desperately trying to break this cycle.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

It is GREAT that you have gained so much self-awareness, and are working on breaking free of old patterns/behaviours. This will really serve you going forward, whatever the outcome with your W. 

Remember to (((((love yourself))))) today. OK?

Wishing to best for you!

Cheers,- A12


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Good for you, C. Some people are afraid to look at themselves. I used to feel that way, too. But when we can really face our own behaviors and issues and take care of them, it's actually a really hopeful thing. We can get past the pain of discovery, and we can do the work to change ourselves, and then we will have the benefits of being better people (for us and those we love) and having a better life. 

You're on your way!! :smthumbup:


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Awakening2012 said:


> Remember to (((((love yourself))))) today. OK?
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I think not loving myself was one of the reasons I've engaged in so much self-destructive and self-defeating behavior in relationships over the years. For the first time in recent memory, I am starting to actually like the person I'm becoming. I have a lot more work before I will get to the love stage, but I think I'm getting there.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi Canardo -

Just checking in to say hi, and that I hope you ae having a good weekend. How are you doing?

Cheers,- A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Awakening2012 said:


> Hi Canardo -
> 
> Just checking in to say hi, and that I hope you ae having a good weekend. How are you doing?
> 
> Cheers,- A12


Hi A12. Thank you for checking in. I've been having a great weekend so far. I'm out of town for a close friend's wedding. It has been a reunion with my closest childhood friends. It was so nice to reconnect with them. Meanwhile W is on vacation with some girlfriends, so we haven't had much contact, except when she texted me "Bon voyage" on the morning I was traveling. It's been hard not to think about her during the weekend. We've been to so many weddings together and enjoyed celebrating with our friends. I found myself daydreaming about having her by my side or on my arm, looking absolutely gorgeous in her ****tail dress. 

I'm looking forward to seeing her at some point after she gets back from her trip.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi Canardo - 

Just thinking of you and checking in as to how things are going for you. Would love to hear you update, if you're up to it. 

Hope you and your little one are doing well!

Cheers. A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Hi A12,

Thank you again for checking on me. There hasn't been much activity on the marriage front. I haven't had much contact with W since we both returned from our trips last week.

As for me, I feel like I'm backsliding a bit in the efforts I've made to become less dependent and start feeling better about myself. This weekend wasn't good. I had some plans to go to a friend's birthday party. I was supposed to go with one of my closest friends but he canceled at the last minute. I don't begrudge him at all as he has a wife and two-year-old daughter that he doesn't get to see much because of his demanding job. I thought about going to the party alone but decided not to. I realize I should have just gone and tried to have a nice time. I'm sure I would have. I ended up staying mostly at home all weekend feeling sorry for myself, eating bad food, and drinking a bit, too. Now I feel like cr_p on this Monday morning. 

Part of the reason I was feeling so cr_ppy over the weekend was because I was expecting/hoping to see W at some point. I felt like we had some "momentum" from our last couple meetings and I wanted to continue making what I felt like was progress towards R (even if this wasn't explicitly mentioned during our get togethers). We had exchanged a few texts on Saturday but she expressed no interest in getting together, so I didn't push it. I know I should be focusing on myself, but this is the truth. My mood is so dependent on my interactions with her, on my perception of her feelings for me, etc. I don't see a way out of these feelings right now. I guess I should go back to trying to focus on myself -- working out, excelling at work, etc. It just sucks -- I feel so lonely and have no interest in meeting new people. 

The truth is I was kind of expecting/fearing that W would withdraw from me after getting back from her vacation. She doesn't want to get too close to me, or to "send me the wrong signals." This pendulum has been a pattern during this separation. And there's nothing I can do about it. 

I'm going to try not to contact her this week. I know I will be thinking about her, wondering if/when she'll reach out to me, and fearing that it won't happen and I will eventually cave and send her a text or something.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

I should add that I feel anger, too. I often think about telling her that if she wants D, then let's get it over with and stop d_cking me around. If this is the life she wants, then let's stop pretending to be friends because that just confuses things. If D will be the inevitable outcome, then let's do it. 

On the one hand, I feel like I'm increasingly getting emotionally prepared for this kind of conversation with her. But I also realize that this is partly my anger talking, and that this is probably yet another self-destructive impulse that I need to control -- that telling her these things may push her into D and foreclose any real possibility of R that may (or may not) exist. The last time I said something along these lines, she balked, but she may not do so the next time. 

Every time we go for a while without seeing each other, like we have over the past couple of weeks, I feel less optimistic about R and I feel more inclined to go down this potentially destructive path of ending it once and for all. I'm not even sure if R is even a possibility right now; we don't even talk about D or R anymore. We've just been hanging out occasionally and kind of going with the flow. I just don't want to set myself up for another huge emotional blow by getting my hopes up, and it seems that, for now at least, she is feeling the same way.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Sorry to hear that things have not been well for you, C. Truth is, this is precisely what your DBT is trying to help you work on. When you start having those negative thoughts about yourself, or her, or your future going through your mind -- that's when you need to stop, do your breathing, get in the present moment, and let those feelings pass. Get your thoughts to what you *do* know. You have a lot of _un_certainty right now, and that's not easy for someone with BPD, so that's probably one reason you want to force things -- at least you'll have something you're sure of, and you won't feel so dependent on her and her actions for your moods.

But you are right -- you don't know what she's thinking or feeling. You're making assumptions about her. You might be right, or you might not. 

When's your next appointment with your IC? Do you have 'homework' that you do between appointments? If not, it might be a good idea to ask for some things you can do or read in between appointments to keep you focused, until the skills become more automatic. 

It's good that you are aware of some of your behaviors, but as you know, they are not effective behaviors. That's the next step -- moving on to more effective ways of dealing with your stresses, feelings and thoughts.

If I were you, and I didn't have an IC appointment soon, I'd call and make one, or at least talk to your therapist and see if there are some things he/she can recommend for you to do until then. 

Hang in there, C. You can do this if you have the will. I know you don't like this, so let that be your impetus to keep working on you. You are the only person you have control over, and whether or not she changes, you know your life will not get better if you stay the same.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thank you, angelpixie. I agree that my behaviors and thinking patterns have not been effective, and I've failed to implement some of my learnings from DBT. I just feel like, even with all the mindfulness, distraction, acceptance, etc. -- there is a limit to how much uncertainty and anguish I can deal with. Despite this weekend, overall I'm starting to feel better about myself, about the person I'm becoming. And if my wife doesn't want to be with me, there's nothing I can do about that. Someone else will benefit from the changes I'm making, because I know I can be a loving husband and that I can have a fulfilling marriage. So part if my desire to force things is coming from my increasing sense of self-confidence and self-love.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I understand, C. Limbo is hard for everyone to deal with. But deep down, you know (as you admitted earlier) that you are still letting her action (and inaction) determine your moods and validate you. Much as you are moving forward (and I don't doubt that you are), until you can get to a place where you are not dependent on her (or anyone else) to set the stage for how you're living your life, things will not change. And that's the process you're working on now. All of those other things you mentioned in your post above are getting you there, if you use them. One that several in our group found extremely helpful was 'opposite to emotion action.' One example would have been forcing yourself to go to that event this weekend, even though you didn't feel like it. It takes conscious decisions to think these things through -- asking yourself questions such as "What will be a more effective thing to do in order to change the pattern I'm in: staying home and thinking about her and our marriage, or going to the party, meeting new people/seeing old friends, and spending time doing something different?" It takes awareness of what you're doing and why, yes, but also the next step to consciously choose to do something different -- multiple times a day. This will help make a big difference in those feelings you get to just force things to move forward. One big decision/change like that is not always the best thing to do. Especially when you are not certain of what is going on with her. Making these thought-out decisions will also give you a more stable sense of yourself and what you can and cannot control, and how to deal with uncertainty relative to things you cannot control.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

You're right, angelpixie. "Opposite emotion reaction" is something that I should practice more often. I think I was doing a good job for a while, but I've slipped back into old, comfortable behavior patterns.

I have an IC appointment on Wednesday. I hope to discuss these issues then.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi Canardo - 

Thanks for your candor, and sorry you've been going through a bit of a rough time. Angelpixie gave some great advice, and I can only add to that my own additional validation that limbo of separation has been probably the most daunting mental and emotional challenges of my life. 

I understand how you feel, the anger part, too, and wanting to force a decision to ease your anxiety and assert some control. But I agree with others, if you do still want to leave the door open for the chance of R, all you can do is wait it out and keep the focus on yourself and making each day the best it can be. 

I will confess, now that my STBXH has finally filed for D, and it is moving forward -- even though it is not the outcome I wanted -- feel some sense of relief. And anger that he let it drag on so long! Still, I consciously chose to wait it out with him, because I still loved him and hoped for R. So that was my choice, and also a choice to let the limbo torment me as much as it did -- I did not do so great at detaching, and so it was easy to blame my heartache on his behaviour (negelct, distancing, flip-flopping), which in reality my emotional suffering was self-inflicted. I had a choice to feel tormented by it or not and I struggled with that each day. I learned a lot on TAM about the victim chair (blaming someone else's behaviour for our feelings) - LOL!

In any case, all the work you are doing on yourself will pay off regardless of which way things go. 

How about the child custoday arrangements - do you still see your W when she drops off your son or you pick him up?

Good luck, and keep us posted. 

Best Wishes, - A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thank you for sharing your experience, A12. It's definitely a very difficult situation to be in. W is definitely engaging in all the behaviors you mentioned. Part of is a desire to take control, but also to protect myself from the devastation of what may be an inevitable outcome, and I'm just in denial, as my wife has (unkindly) pointed out so many times. I don't want to go along with this, dumbly, with the illusory hope of R. I don't want to let W take all this time only because she's procrastinating, not because she's unsure of her decision.

Fortunately we don't have any children, which will make it much easier if we divorce. I can't imagine having kids in the picture on top of everything. I have great sympathy for all those that do.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Canardo said:


> Fortunately we don't have any children, which will make it much easier if we divorce. I can't imagine having kids in the picture on top of everything. I have great sympathy for all those that do.


Thanks for the clarification, and pardon mymisunderstanding. I agree 1000%, those with kids involved have an even tougher row to hoe, being that they will forever be tied to their "ex" via the kids. In my case, too, we did not have children so that does make it simpler and cleaner -- though no less heartbreaking.

Good luck in IC this week. I, too, started with a new shrink (MD) for medication management and will soon start IC with a LCSW. It is clear you are learning a lot and have made great progress! We all emotionally backslide sometimes, but can't let that stop you from learning how to better handle those occasions, picking yourself up and getting back on track  

Cheers, - A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thanks A12, no problem at all. I think I'd like to have kids some day. One of the reasons W and I didn't try to have kids was because we never felt solid enough in our marriage. That makes me sad.

Another thing that made me sad was something W said when we last spoke. I asked about her family and told her I think about them a lot. She said, "How so?" I told her that I miss them and I often wonder what they think about me. (I've had zero contact with them since W left.) She said they mostly feel relieved that our marriage is ending. She said they could tell she was unhappy in our marriage. And now she's supposedly happy. Which I don't really believe. Does W feel relief, independence, etc.? Yes. Happiness? No. I said, "So they're happy to have gotten rid of me?" W: "I wouldn't put it that way, but, yeah, basically." I told her I thought they loved and cared for me and that I had independent relationships with each of them, as an individual. She said that, for her family, their love for me was completely conditional on making W happy. When W left, they lost any love for me and I'm now basically dead to them (she didn't use those exact words). She said that's just the way they are. I wanted to tell her I think that's an immature, unsophisticated way to deal with the situation -- but I didn't. (My attitude towards her family -- especially in regards to viewing them as unsophisticated and provincial -- was a huge issue in our marriage.)

She also said her mother was terrified I would make W's life miserable in a divorce by litigating and fighting her over everything. But now that I'm more stable she says that I "seem to be handling things well" (based on what W tells her, I have to assume).

I ended up apologizing for bringing it up and that I should really be focusing on myself and not be preoccupied with what her family thinks of me. She totally agreed. It still stung to hear those things.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

I forgot to mention that after I got back from my friend's wedding I sent W an email telling her how much I missed being with her at the wedding. It was a very sentimental letter. She responded with "Oh Canardo... My heart hurts reading this." I said, "I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you." W: "It's not a bad hurt."

I want so badly to call her right now and tell her I love her and miss her. Part of me thinks that is the right thing to do because it's "authentic." But I know it's counterproductive. This is h_ll.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I sympathize with hearing about W's family. When my Ex walked out, my ex-MIL pulled closer to me. I'd lost my mother unexpectedly a few months before. We kept our separation secret for several months, which was easy to do as all of our family lives 1200 miles away. She told me "You'll always be my daughter," Ex's older sister said she'd never forget all I did to take care of Ex when he had his mental breakdown several years ago (she knows more than anyone on his side of the family), etc. Ex told me (before our D was filed) that his family still loves and cares about me and thinks I'm 'great.' But then when things went south on the way to mediation and I hired a lawyer, everything changed. His sister was the first to dump me. I saw the ex-MIL when she visited last summer (Ex tried to keep us apart, threatening her that she'd see less of her grandson if she saw me), but Ex was really pushing his gf as the new 'one' for all of them to latch on to. And they have. I recently saw that ex-MIL is her friend on FB. She has remembered me with cards at Christmas and my birthday, but pointedly signed with their first and last names, no longer 'Mom and Dad.' So much for always being family.  

One thing I had to realize: our spouses got to be the way they are in part because of their FOO. And the old saying is true: blood is thicker than water, even if they may be upset with their son/daughter at first. So, expect dysfunction in the way they treat you, too. Don't take it personally, C. It sucks, but they're part of the package of 'her.' 

And yes, it is harder with kids. You can never make a clean break. It's always in your face. But you eventually deal with it, better all the time, and move on.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hold on Canardo - don't contact her -- you can do this!

Best,- A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Awakening2012 said:


> Hold on Canardo - don't contact her -- you can do this!
> 
> Best,- A12


Thanks, A12. I didn't! And haven't contacted her since Sunday, when we exchanged a couple of texts. I'm realizing that _not_ contacting her is a form of communication in itself. It's saying that I'm okay by myself (not sure if this is 100% true -- yet!), I'm comfortable in my own skin, I don't need her assurance or affirmation. In other words, this inaction is a form of action.  This restraint is a kind of "opposite emotion" action. Thinking about it that way helps me feel more in control of myself and my actions with respect to her. 

At the same time, I think about her constantly -- she (or more generally our marriage) is always at least in the back of my mind. But I don't feel compelled to reach out to her. It's more that feel anxious about what our future holds, and I miss her gravely. I also know that she's trying to send me a message by not contacting me, but I'm okay with that because I understand why she would do so. I know I shouldn't speculate about what she's thinking, but I believe she misses me on some level.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Canardo said:


> At the same time, I think about her constantly -- she (or more generally our marriage) is always at least in the back of my mind. But I don't feel compelled to reach out to her. It's more that feel anxious about what our future holds, and I miss her gravely. I also know that she's trying to send me a message by not contacting me, but I'm okay with that because I understand why she would do so. I know I shouldn't speculate about what she's thinking, but I believe she misses me on some level.


Hi Canardo - I hear you, I have been in the same boat and felt the exact same way for far too long. As a limbo-land survivor, I can affirm it is really extremely challenging not to think about the estranged spouse and whether there is any chance of saving the marriage, in addition to selective euphoric recall of better times, of what it was like when you fell in love. I can only say, hang in there and give it your all to focus on other things -- use this time to rediscover who you are, what your passions are, what things make you feel good and give you purpose and meaning. It is very important not to isolate, and to work on cultivating a social network through various channels (gym, meet ups, activity clubs, volunteer work, etc).

I dare say, I am feeling better now that I am apparently approaching closure -- though I'm still waiting to know when the court date is set for our D hearing. I hope to God he is not going to drag this out any longer, I am so done with dwelling on this [email protected] 

Wishing you the best of luck, which ever way it goes -- try to keep up the positive attitude and stay on course with working on you, and you'll be assured a better outcome either way!

All the Best, A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Hi all. A brief update - I know I'm breaking every single rule of the 180, so bring out the lumber, but here goes:

After over a week of NC, I caved and called W earlier this week. She sounded happy and surprised to hear from me. Eventually I turned the conversation to the subject of D. I told her that if D is truly and absolutely the inevitable outcome here, then please proceed with it ASAP. She hemmed and hawed, and complained about the court costs (a couple hundred bucks -- I said I'd be happy to pay for it). She then said she thought it was too soon to do something "so traumatic." I thought to myself, "traumatic for her???" But she said she's willing to proceed now if that's what I want. I told her that's obviously not what I want, but if it's inevitable then it's better for me to get it over with so that I can begin to heal.

I also told her I would be engaging a lawyer, and I suggest that she do, too. That really freaked her out. She is terrified of anything remotely adversarial in this process, and she's especially scared of me because she "knows what I'm capable of" when I'm hurt. She also hates the idea of being served with papers. I told her not to worry, I won't make her life miserable. I said I don't want to hurt her ever again.

During the conversation I told her I think she's ambivalent and she's afraid to let herself feel certain things for me. After that intense meeting, she (predictably) withdrew and became cold again. I told her I think she's avoiding the possibility to developing feelings, attachment, etc. for me. She basically agreed. She said it's really hard for her to see me. And that I have this fantasy of us getting back together (guilty!).

In the end, she once again said she would like to get together with me. She's coming over for dinner tonight. I'm cooking -- something I rarely did when we were together.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Take it slow, C. Your situation is different from many here on TAM in that she is not openly pushing you for a D, you don't have a hostile relationship, and from what you said, she doesn't seem eager to run into another relationship.

That being said, though, there is still a lot that has to happen before you two can think of R. Use these get-togethers as a chance to practice your new skills. Observe her as dispassionately as you can, and focus on you, not on her. 

I hope it goes well. Good luck!


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thanks, angelpixie, I agree. I'm having trouble with taking it slow. This has been the longest six months of my life, and part of me just wants to move on and spare myself of any more unnecessary anguish.

But I agree that my goal from these meetings is to build trust and to practice my skills. I also need to appear more detached than I have been. I want to be more 'alpha', which doesn't come naturally to me. She knows how I feel, so I don't need to tell her any more. I just hope to show her a possibility of a different kind of relationship, and a less needy and less codependent self.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

angelpixie said:


> Take it slow, C. Your situation is different from many here on TAM in that she is not openly pushing you for a D, you don't have a hostile relationship, and from what you said, she doesn't seem eager to run into another relationship.


Hi Canardo - 

Good to hear your update. I would echo AP's advice and also caution that you should try not to get your hopes or expectations up too much. As you know, I was in a similar prologed separation limbo with my STBXH, and looking back, the periods when we intermittently tried to have friendly contact (be it getting together in person or over the phone), regardless of who initiated, only ended up causing me so much emotional agony and made it far harder on me than it needed to be. That's because I could not detach and let go of my desire for R.

In retrospect, think it would have been easier on me emotionally and better for my healing and growth had I done a stricter 180, including declining his social invites and attempts to be "friends."
Most of his contact with me would be about fishing to see if he still had the emotional hooks in me or processing his "trauma" -- never, ever remotely about possibiity of R.

It may play out differently in your case -- regardless I hope tonight goes well for you!

Best Regards,- A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thanks, A12. I have made it clear to W that I don't want to -- I can't -- be her friend. I'm not sure exactly what she wants to get out of these interactions. It may very well be that she is trying to make letting go easier for her. It helps her process the trauma. But I can't believe that seeing me regularly would be good for her detachment process (to the extent she hasn't detached already), if detachment is what she ultimately wants. I think she feels conflicted. She seems to have difficulty with her mixed feelings. Instead, she seems to vacillate from one extreme (coldness, detachment, distance) to the other (warmth, intimacy, tenderness, etc.). We'll see what she'll be like tonight.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hey Canardo - Haven't heard from you for awhile, just saying hello. How did it go with that last encounter with your spouse, and since then?

Best Wishes, A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Hi, A12. Unfortunately the meeting didn't go so well. My wife was over an hour late, and I was already exhausted from work etc. by the time she arrived at 9:30pm. So I was pretty emotionally vulnerable to begin with. Right after she arrived, W apologized to me for her reaction when I said I would be hiring a lawyer. It went downhill from there. She once again affirmed that there is absolutely zero chance of R. She said that she could never let me into her most intimate, deepest core, she could never love me completely in that way. That was one of the most hurtful things anyone has ever said to me. 

I basically lost it and went into a full-fledged crying jag. I told her let's just get it over with. I asked her once again why she hasn't done anything, and she said it's hard for her to completely let go of our marriage -- but that doesn't mean there's any chance of R. I told her I didn't think she'd actually go through with it in the end. She didn't respond. She threatened to leave early a couple times during her visit (something she's done before during my waterworks, she but didn't end up doing so this time).

In a moment of desperation, I asked her if she would consider trying MC again. She said that's ridiculous because there's no chance of R. She said she wished there was a way for me to understand that our marriage is over. I told her about what I envision for a potential path towards R: start by taking D off the table; continue to see each other without D hanging over our heads; if things go well, start spending more time together (weekends, etc.); maybe go on a trip together; slowly re-integrate with each other's friends and family. She didn't respond. When she left she suggested we shouldn't see each other any more -- it's too difficult for her. I said, "Okay. What's next?" She said, "I don't know. I'll be in touch."

Overall, my behavior reeked of weakness and desperation. I felt like I threw all my progress (and any potential of R) out the window. I spend the next day at work crying on and off in my office.

There's been limited contact since we saw each other on Wednesday -- one phone call and a few texts. When we spoke we decided not to proceed with D right now. I told her take as much time as she needs and that giving her the time she needs is the least I could do after pushing her away. I don't know what's going to happen next, but I'm taking it day by day for now. 

I feel like I need to go back to the fundamental principles of 180 -- no talk about D or the relationship unless she brings it up.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi Canardo - 

Thanks for the update, and I'm so sorry it did not go so well with your spouse's visit last Wednesday evening. Wow, I am stunned by the extent to which I've lived a nearly identical scenario in many ways. I know all too well how gut wrenching it is, and my heart goes out to you big time!!! 

My STBXH filed the initial divorce papers on April 17th, and has since proceeded to do NOTHING -- he has not filed a request with the court to set a hearing date, which is the next step to getting this thing finalized.

Ugh, these types of walk-away spouses that talk and act like there is no possibility of R, but then sit on their hands and can't seem to pull the trigger. It is so bizarre and very hard not to feel hurt and emotionally drained. The only option is to DETACH, assume the 50,000 foot elevation position, don't over-think it or obsess on it --just go about our lives, not let it get to us. 

Hang in there, kiddo, and know you are not alone in this wretched ordeal!

Best Regards,- A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thanks, A12. It's awful, isn't it? Your spouse seems to have really given you the runaround. It's hard to feel like we have no control over the outcome of our marriages.

On the plus side, I had a pretty good weekend. Went to a a high school reunion and caught up with some old friends. After the reunion we went to a night club, which is something I hadn't done in years (and generally have no desire to do!). It was nice to be around lots of young, beautiful people, did a little chatting/flirting with strangers of the opposite sex. It was nice to be reminded that there are lots of women out there, and some of them may actually find me attractive! It was a fun (if temporary) ego boost!


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

That is awesome, Canardo -- I'm so glad you got yourself out there and socializing. It's great that you got reassurance of the options that will surely await you, should your spouse decide to end the marriage. Her loss will be another lovely lady's gain, when and if should you so desire  

Best Regards,- A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Hello everyone. I'm not doing very well. I feel like I'm going off the rails. I feel pathetic and weak in my inability to maintain any semblance of 180, in my inability to show any strength. 

After our last get together, I felt things were going well but didn't hear anything from W in a couple weeks, and I made the mistake of calling her and asking her to get together again. She said she didn't think that was a great idea as last time was so difficult for her. She is trying to protect herself from any more pain, she said. But she said she'd like to get together to discuss D paperwork and not to hang out. She said she agreed with me when I said it would be best to do this as quickly as possible and get it over with. It seems that I pushed her towards accelerating the legal process. I called her again over the weekend to see if she wants to get together and she repeated the same position. Things got worse from there.

Yesterday, I made the mistake of checking out her FB page. Saw some photos of her with an unfamiliar man, saw that she changed her relationship status and deleted photos with me. I lost control and called her immediately and interrogated her about this person. Initially she said he's just a friend, he's a compulsive FB photo-taker/uploader, and various other uncredible fictitious explanations. Then she got defensive and told me we are getting a divorce and her "personal life" was none of my business. I'm not sure I can really argue with that. I just told her it hurts to see her moving on.

She then said that this is exactly the reason why she can't trust me. Because I can't control my behavior and end up hurting her (in this case, by interrogating her). Because I don't think about consequences before I act. How she was always soothing me, placating me, and taking care of me -- and she refuses to do that anymore (by telling me things to make me feel better, even if untrue). She told me that there were times during this separation that she felt so much love and affection for me (she never expressed this to me) when had second thoughts about D, but I kept ruining it through my destructive behavior. I told her I recognized the patterns, and I have more work to do, but I feel good about the strides I've made so far.

She said she didn't want to talk to me or see me except to deal with logistics of D. She said she has drafted a complaint and she's going to court to get a docket number today.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

I've also gone back to drinking every day.


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## rks1 (Jan 27, 2012)

Canardo said:


> I've also gone back to drinking every day.


Why are you so self-destructive? What good will come out of drinking? 

It is no wonder you are trying to control her, as it seems you are feeling so out-of-control yourself. Even though the R may be over, it seems you are also creating further bad terms with her by your current behavior. I would certainly be frightened of you if I were your W. I know losing our spouses is incredibly difficult and painful for all of us, but you just have to stop this crazy-making behavior already. Your pain is justified, but your behavior is not. Stop the pity party and just try to live the best life you can going forwards. Leave her alone now.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi Canardo - 

I'm so sorry to hear things are not going so well -- my heart goes out to you, as I know the pain you are feeling all too well. There is no short cut to getting through this, it is a day at a time deal -- you just have to know that you will be OK, and get to a bettter place. You are still in IC, right? It sounds like you could really use the extra support right know. Wish I had something more to say that would ease your heart ache, but all I can add is, please don't be so hard on yourself. As you know, you HAVE made great strides, and we are all a work in progress  It is too late for my STBXH, as well -- he has long since detached and does not care about any self-improvement I am doing, he just wants to move on. Once they have made up their minds to give up on us and the marriage, our only option is to detach, detach, detach -- keep the focus on ourselves and making each day the best it can be. Have you started going to the gym and working out regularly?

Hang in there, and if you continue to have trouble not drinking, you may wish to consider AA -- another very valuable source of support that could be of great use to your growth and recovery from the pain of this loss.

Take care and keep us posted!

Kind Regards,- A12


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## rks1 (Jan 27, 2012)

If you had any genuine love for her at all, you would realize that you are just too unhealthy to give her what she needs in a relationship. She doesn't deserve to constantly be pulled down by you. If you love her, set her free to find the love she deserves and stop accusing and troubling her.

You also deserve happiness and love in your life, but it will take time for you to get healthy first.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thank you for your thoughts, rks1 and A12. I am grateful for the tough-love and support. 



rks1 said:


> Why are you so self-destructive?


You should have seen me a few months ago! Why is anyone self-destructive? Why does anyone engage in self-destructive behaviors, like abusing alcohol? I have some idea, mostly learned through IC and DBT. I am still going to IC, down to once a week. I wish I could go more often. 

I was starting to do much better - focusing on work, improving my social life (though still not exercising much). This coincided with things getting better with W, not sure which was caused by which - probably a little of both. Then I slowly became more needy, co-dependent, terrified. The FB stuff put me over the edge, and apparently my reactivity put W over the edge. It sucks because I felt things were turning a corner with us a few weeks ago. I'm not sure if things would have turned out differently had I stuck it out and not had a "relapse" of bad behavior. But the probably of R would have certainly been greater! I know there's no point dwelling on what-ifs. In any case there are too many to count.

rks1 - You're absolutely right. I'm not ready to give her what she needs or desires -- and it absolutely kills me. Healing, changing behavior patterns -- this stuff takes a lot of time, and some distance. Unfortunately, both of those things also undermine the possibility of R (though not as much as my self-destructive behavior!). Our marriage is screwed either way. It's her decision, nothing I can do about it. I just pray that she changes her mind.


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## rks1 (Jan 27, 2012)

You seem insightful and intelligent. You know what you are doing is destructive to both you and her, and that it is pushing her away further and reducing the chances of ever having a relationship. 

The problem is that there seems to be a disconnect between what you KNOW you need to do, versus your actual behavior. I know you mentioned earlier that you have BPD, and this kind of impulse control is difficult for you. But I think you have to find a way to work through it. Yes, there may be difficult moments when you come to know she is dating someone else. It's best to stay away from FB and her page entirely. But at some point, regardless, you will still come to find out things. And the best you can do is try to take some deep breaths, and find a way to calm yourself down instead of getting worked up and reactive. Yes, it's very sad to have lost a marriage... but we can only accept the things that are now out of our control. You can only control yourself and not her. This may be hard, but learning to respond to a situation (rather than become reactive to it) will help you grow.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Hi, Canardo. What you are going through is part of that non-linear path towards healing. Your patterns and reactivity have been ingrained a long time. You're going to have to work hard, and make conscious efforts to think things through before you do or say them.

When you get the urge to go on her FB, STOP. Ask yourself: Why am I doing this? Is this an effective behavior for me? Will this be good for me? I think you know what the answers would have been if you'd asked yourself these questions first. And you probably wouldn't have looked, and not seen the photos, and not called her, etc., etc. Would it mean the pictures wouldn't have been there? Not at all, obviously. But this is about YOU now, not her. 

No matter what happens with her, you will go on living, and you will have other times of stress, whether it's interpersonal, or with work, or finances, or whatever. You need to work on those skills and relearning how to do things, how to think and react.

If you can't get in to IC more than once a week, ask for more homework to do or books to read to keep you grounded between appointments. 

Remember that 'opposite emotion action' piece -- when you feel like drinking, get out an exercise instead. Do the mindfulness exercises to calm you down instead of reaching for the bottle. 

You are focusing on getting to R. Change that focus. 

Focus solely on getting you healed. You're not the only person in this marriage anyway. You've forgotten that she has her own issues that she is not dealing with. At this point, it wouldn't matter if the DBT Fairy came down and clunked you on the head with a magic wand and you were suddenly 'all better.' She wouldn't be. Therefore, no R. 

You are intelligent, C. It's obvious. Now we need to see that you have the will and commitment and self-love to do the hard work on yourself so that you can be healthy and happy. I think you do.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thank you both for your encouraging words. This is definitely a non-linear experience. I think a couple things have happened that contributed to me losing sight of my work on myself. 

When I saw that things were getting better between us, I got way too wrapped up in that. I loved that feeling of hope, feeling close to her again, feeling her love and affection for the first time in so long. I hadn't felt these feelings at any time before during the separation. I just wanted so desperately for things to continue to get better. And I wasn't prepared to deal with any kind of non-linearness in the progress of our relationship, even though I kind of expected her to pull back. When she did inevitably pull back, I think I panicked -- went back to needy, controlling, reactive, etc. 

Seeing those photos and change of status on FB triggered such intense fears of abandonment. I was so relieved when she apparently stopped seeing her exboyfriend. It contributed to my feeling of hope. Seeing her with someone new was devastating, and I panicked once again.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

That's totally understandable, C. You still have a lot of feelings for her, and it hurts, I know. That's the crazy thing about having abandonment fears. People may think they're irrational, but sometimes there's a real reason to fear. We just have to learn the skills to deal with whatever happens. I think we often fear the unknown and that feeling of being out of control. My Ex used to really push my buttons when he was being extra mean, and say that I was projecting my abandonment fears from my father leaving onto him. Turns out he was having multiple EAs while he was telling me this. Turns out my fear wasn't so irrational after all. But I should have loved myself enough to walk away from him at that point, and I didn't. I'm learning how to do that now, if I'm ever in that type of situation again.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

These are all such great points. I continue to be astounded by all of your wisdom, generosity and thoughtfulness. I will read and re-read them until they hopefully sink in.

angelpixie - The homework/reading is a great idea. I think I need to get back to reading up on these issues. 

You also make a great point that I'm not the only one in this marriage. I've been thinking about what kinds of changes she would need to make for any possibility of a genuine R. It seems pointless, but it may be a good reality check:
- acknowledge her role in the destruction of the marriage; work on her own co-dependency issues as fixer and care-taker;
- acknowledge the gratuitous pain she has caused me during the separation;
- address the self-destructiveness of her own behavior;
- decide whether or not she wants to be married at all! right now it seems like she has no interest in any LTR, let alone marriage; just sex, drugs & rock'n'roll;
- she, too, needs to deal with managing her anger properly.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

All true! That list was a great thing to do. :smthumbup:


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

angelpixie said:


> That's totally understandable, C. You still have a lot of feelings for her, and it hurts, I know. That's the crazy thing about having abandonment fears. People may think they're irrational, but sometimes there's a real reason to fear. We just have to learn the skills to deal with whatever happens. I think we often fear the unknown and that feeling of being out of control. My Ex used to really push my buttons when he was being extra mean, and say that I was projecting my abandonment fears from my father leaving onto him. Turns out he was having multiple EAs while he was telling me this. Turns out my fear wasn't so irrational after all. But I should have loved myself enough to walk away from him at that point, and I didn't. I'm learning how to do that now, if I'm ever in that type of situation again.


So true. And of course my behaviors in response to fears of abandonment contribute to those fears becoming even more real, a self-fulfilling prophecy.

During our conflicts, she would often lock herself in the bathroom and cry -- wail, really. I hated that. It would drive me nuts. I would be extra mean accuse her of re-enacting her relationship with her mother with me. I would accuse her of acting like her thirteen-year-old self. While I think these things were somewhat true (but very hurtful), of course I really felt guilty that I hurt her so much, but I would react with extreme anger because I couldn't deal with being ashamed, disappointed, etc. Story of my (previous) life.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

It's true that I have been focusing on R. I'm finding it so hard to let go! And that brief glimpse of possibility only made me focus on R even more. That makes these developments even more devastating. I need to find a way. I've been thinking that the best thing for me (and maybe even any chance of saving relationship) would be NC. Like A12 experienced, I feel like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Waiting to either get process served to receive a package of docs in the mail. I feel like I need to control even this awful D process. But it's probably best for me to take a step back and let the chips fall as they may. And if she does go ahead and initiate the process or file, I think I should be as cooperative as possible. No foot-dragging on my part, as hard as that will be. I need to give her what she wants.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

It's hard to look back at those things we used to do. I've had to, too. But we have to forgive ourselves, and know that we were following our own 'programming' as it were. Now that we know better, we can change things. The sad thing is that the persons we were with may not be there to see the new 'us.' But in learning about these relationships, we have to see that our mutual dysfunction is partly why we were together in the first place. Unless both partners grow and change beyond that childhood programming, a better relationship isn't even possible. 

But that doesn't mean we won't be happy again. Being healthy is automatically a better state of life. My locations is 'State of Unwedded Bliss.' It's obviously a play on the phrase 'wedded bliss,' but of course life isn't blissful right now after divorce. But it is better than _my dysfunctional marriage_. Which by comparison, is kinda blissful.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

The last couple weeks have been a bit better. The day after our argument about FB/OM, we had a very good hour-long phone conversation about our relationship, my behavior patterns, etc. At the end of the conversation she asked to bring over the D papers. She came over on Wednesday. Before getting down to business, we went to our old local sushi place for dinner. It was delicious and fun! I was feeling a lot of anger and resentment towards her all day on Wednesday in anticipation of our meeting, but I kept it well in check. We shared lots of laughs over dinner and it was generally a positive vibe. It's amazing how much we can still laugh together, how much fun we can have together, after all this. 

Once at my place, she took me through all the D papers and showed me a draft settlement agreement. I listened quietly. (Interestingly, all the papers were dated May 14, the day after we had that FB/OM argument.) When she was done, I just stared blankly into space, avoiding looking at her. She was sitting next to me on the sofa and I could see her looking at me, awaiting some kind of emotional reaction. Nothing. Then out of the corner of my eye I saw tears streaming down her cheeks and neck. I got a tissue and wiped her tears. I tried to comfort her, telling her it's okay. I massaged her neck as I used to do, which she seemed to welcome. She leaned her head on my shoulder.

She told me how extremely sad she was, how she felt so disappointed in herself. She said how she wonders what she could have done differently during our marriage to avoid this outcome. I suggested we both could have done many things differently. But our destructive patterns were so deeply ingrained and so difficult to break. 

She said that throughout our marriage she kept looking for any signs of hope of change in my behavior, and she would naively latch on to the smallest positive signs -- only to be repeatedly disappointed. I told her I took full responsibility for my actions, but the destruction of our marriage was caused by mutually reinforcing behaviors. For the first time, she seemed to acknowledge, or at least not completely reject, some role for her in all this. 

I asked her what she had wanted in our marriage. She said she hoped for an "easy, intimate partnership." I know it wasn't easy or intimate, I said, but I know it can be that way now.

I twice offered to fill out my affidavit and give it to her before she left, but she said no, she just wanted to show it to me for now. She grabbed a few things and I drove her home. I gave her a big goodbye kiss on the cheek and told her I haven't given up on us. When I returned I saw that she forgot all her D papers at my place. I haven't heard from her since.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Wow, C. That's some pretty heavy stuff. How are you feeling about all of it? Sounds like you did a great job of handling a very emotional situation. Keeping my fingers crossed that some of your wise words are starting to sink in, and that she really is starting to see some of her own part in things.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thanks, angelpixie. I felt good about my behavior during the meeting. Seeing those D papers was very difficult, especially the complaint itself with W as "Plaintiff" and myself as "Defendant." I was feeling a lot of sadness but even more anger. But I had prepared a lot for this meeting mentally, and maybe my practice and experience with dealing with distress (both good and bad) is starting to show results. I just have to be consistent. It was refreshing for me to be the emotionally "strong" one while W broke down. 

I felt like I was finally starting to show W a new, different side of my personality. I showed her I was capable of being stable, calm, level-headed. I very much felt I was, for the first time, dealing with this like a "man" rather than a child. I showed her that I am not going to stand in her way, that I respect her decision even if it's not what I think is the best way forward. I was finally behaving like the man that she always wanted, but never got. 

It may be too late for us, but all of this made me feel a little hope for our marriage. Regardless of what happens, I feel more determined than ever to pursue this difficult path of self-development and self-love.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Yay!!! What a great post, C!! :smthumbup:


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Good to hear your update, Canardo. You handled yourself valiantly , though I know it had to be hard. I think you showed a lot of progress in this latest interaction -- you should be proud of yourself. You can't hang on to hopes for R, and proceed as if it is going forward, just keep working on yourself and getting more grounded, confident and centered in your basic goodness and knowing you can survive and thrive regardless of the outcome. Hang in there, I know it is wrenching not having 100% certainty D is in the cards -- but keep posting and processing. We are here for you and rooting for you!

Kind Regards, A12


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Canardo said:


> Thanks, angelpixie. I felt good about my behavior during the meeting. Seeing those D papers was very difficult, especially the complaint itself with W as "Plaintiff" and myself as "Defendant." I was feeling a lot of sadness but even more anger. But I had prepared a lot for this meeting mentally, and maybe my practice and experience with dealing with distress (both good and bad) is starting to show results. I just have to be consistent. It was refreshing for me to be the emotionally "strong" one while W broke down.
> 
> I felt like I was finally starting to show W a new, different side of my personality. I showed her I was capable of being stable, calm, level-headed. I very much felt I was, for the first time, dealing with this like a "man" rather than a child. I showed her that I am not going to stand in her way, that I respect her decision even if it's not what I think is the best way forward. I was finally behaving like the man that she always wanted, but never got.
> 
> It may be too late for us, but all of this made me feel a little hope for our marriage. Regardless of what happens, I feel more determined than ever to pursue this difficult path of self-development and self-love.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Canardo said:


> It may be too late for us, but all of this made me feel a little hope for our marriage. Regardless of what happens, I feel more determined than ever to pursue this difficult path of self-development and self-love.


Yes! So good to hear you say this -- you are on the right path!

All Best Wishes, A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thank you, A12. I still love W and want a future with her, but my feelings for her are definitely changing day-by-day. She has been emotionally obtuse and unwilling to see things from different perspectives. She has been mean and unkind, while I have mostly been very loving, caring and non-judgmental. She even acknowledged this on Wednesday. Her behavior during our separation indicates to me that we may value different things in life, or at least have different priorities. She has been distracting herself from her issues and denying any role in this debacle, while I'm addressing mine head-on. 

Despite all this I do still have hope for R. But I now realize that R would mean so much more than W letting me be her husband again. She would need to make some important changes, too. She would need to acknowledge her role and work on her own anger. I would need to heal, too. She has shown no willingness to do any of that so far, and I have no reason to think that she will. But I'm trying not to focus on it, and that gets easier every day. I was surprised by my willingness on Wednesday to sign every document she put in front of me, without any hesitation. I didn't sign, but only because she said she didn't want me to do so yet. This showed me that I am able to let her go. I think that surprised her, too.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Canardo said:


> She came over on Wednesday.... Once at my place, she took me through all the D papers and showed me a draft settlement agreement. I listened quietly.


Canardo, your levels of self awareness and ego strength never fail to surprise me. I agree with Angelpixie and Awakening that your restrained behavior at the Wednesday meeting is very impressive -- and the best thing you could have done toward a possible R with your W. I again observe that, for a man who has strong BPD traits, you are capable of amazing restraint and self awareness. It sure sounds to me like you are starting to enjoy the fruits of all the hard work you've done in IC with the DBT.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Wow, thank you all so much for the encouraging words! I hadn't heard the term "ego-strength" before so I looked it up. The concept seems to encapsulate so much of what I've been working towards in IC and DBT (and practicing in real life!). I was someone with zero ego-strength, so easily did I resort to self-destructive defenses. In a sense, I think my many emotional failures of ego-strength during (and prior to!) this separation have helped me become stronger. They have served as useful reference experiences for when similar situations arise in the future. I'm looking forward to facing down many more challenges.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Canardo said:


> I hadn't heard the term "ego-strength" before so I looked it up. The concept seems to encapsulate so much of what I've been working towards in IC and DBT (and practicing in real life!).


Canardo, the self-awareness alone is a rare attribute for BPDers. Yet, in order to succeed in therapy, this self awareness is not sufficient. As I noted earlier (post #12), a BPDer must also have sufficient ego strength to be able to work hard in therapy. 

Absent the ego strength, the BPDer's subconscious will create false projections to protect the fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. Because the conscious mind is unaware that those projections are false, it is easy for the subconscious to sabotage the BPDer's therapeutic efforts when the ego is weak. This, at least, is my understanding of the problem, Canardo. And this is why I consider the self-aware BPDers like you -- and Mavish, Pidge70, Soul Potato and Trenton -- to be such rare jewels.


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

Canardo, I've not posted in your thread before, but am just catching up with it now. Just wanted to add that I think you've handled things really well with your W and you seem to be contemplating the realities of both R and D with clarity. Keep up the good work you're doing for yourself.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi Canardo - 

How are things going? Been awhile since we heard from you. Just checking in to say Hello. Hope you are well.

Best Regards,- A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Hi, A12. Thank you for your concern. I hope you are feeling better.

It's been a difficult couple of weeks. W filed about 10 days ago. She stopped by last Sunday to drop off my copy of the complaint. It didn't go well. I thought I had prepared for the distressing emotions I would experience, but when I saw the official stamp on the complaint with the words "W vs. Canardo" on top, I lost my composure. I proceeded to accuse her, once again, of giving up on us too early and we ended up in an unproductive blame-shifting argument. As she was getting ready to leave, she said "you need to get used to living in a world without me." I told her I wasn't cooperating with the no-fault divorce. Then she lost it. She started wailing and crying like she used to do when I would hurt her. She accused me of never being reliable or trustworthy, just like before. She said I haven't truly changed. She said I was showing my true colors because things were finally getting real. 

It seems I still have the ability to trigger such fear in her. She is still terrified of me, of my ability to hurt her. And she hates the fact that she still is vulnerable to being hurt by me. She said she will never be able to get over her fear and anxieties associated with my temper, and that is an insurmountable obstacle to a loving relationship. I don't believe she can NEVER get over it. I think she's not willing to do the hard emotional work it would take to overcome these feelings, but she obviously disagrees.

Regardless, my reactivity in that meeting didn't help matters. I immediately felt awful. I felt like I squandered another opportunity to create safety and trust with her. And I felt like in one fell swoop I destroyed any chance of R, however improbable. 

Of course I relented and agreed to proceed with no-fault. So, at my insistence, last week we negotiated the settlement. Things have been somewhat back to "normal" between us in our communications. We're being civil, caring, and pleasant with each other. But D looms heavily for me. 

I miss her.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Canardo, thanks so much for the update. I'm so sorry to hear that you two are still going through so much pain. As you say, it is regretable that your angry behavior made her feel unsafe during that meeting a week ago. What is so remarkable, however, is that you are so aware of what you did wrong after the fact. It is rare for a person having strong BPD traits to be able to tolerate that level of self awareness. Your ability to do so bodes well on the prospects for your successful recovery in a therapy program.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

I agree, Uptown. It's also very apparent, C, that you are far ahead of her in your self-awareness. The statement that she will 'never' be able to get over her fear is a way for her to get out of even trying. Perhaps if she worked on herself, and then worked through your marriage issues together with you, she still _wouldn't_ be able to get to the point of trusting again. But, you're right - to just point blank say "I will never be able to" shuts the door from the start. 

It's very sad, but I hope this realization does help you to realize that it's not all you. Yes, you have to work on strengthening your skills when you deal with distressing things, and you are making great progress. But even if you got to be nearly perfect in your reactions, it wouldn't change her. And without that, R still would not be possible. 

Even though you lost it, you alone did not destroy any chances for R. You have to know that. She doesn't want to do the hard work. Period.

But don't let that throw you off track. Keep hanging in there.


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

It has been a while, so a quick update. W filed all the paperwork with the court four weeks ago, so now it's just a waiting game. She said I'll receive a postcard in the mail notifying me of the dissolution of the marriage. After some painful conversations around the time she filed, I've been doing NC and trying to move on, even went on a few dates.

Two weeks ago while I was traveling for work, W left me a voice message saying she just wanted to chat. I didn't call back because I didn't really see the point. And I also didn't believe her that she just wanted to chat. Each time she has called me during 10 months of separation, there has always been some ulterior motive. Well, last week she calls me again at work, and I was there to pick up this time. She says, "It's been a while," and that she just wants to say hello and see how I'm doing. She then goes on to tell me how she feels sad and depressed and how she feels like she's grieving the death of our marriage, the failure of our project after seven years. 

Although I tried to feign sympathy, I didn't really feel much. I reiterated that I disagreed with her decision to divorce and left it at that. Maybe we're just on different timelines for our grieving, but I've been grieving for 10 months and I'm now just starting to try move on. I didn't really understand why she would call me -- twice -- after these months. I'm sure she's sad, and maybe she's starting to have hints of second thoughts. But unless she says the magic words ("I've changed my mind."), we don't really have much to talk about. I'm not her friend, and I can't be her support when this was ultimately her decision.


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## angelpixie (Mar 2, 2012)

Thanks for checking in, C. I've wondered how things have been going for you. There are those (ex)spouses who have second thoughts. Things didn't magically improve in their lives when they ended their marriages, so they pop back into the lives of the ones they left behind to see if they can get back what they selfishly threw away. Sounds like that's what's happening.

It also sounds like you're on much stronger emotional footing now, and that's great! To not be pulled back in by her calls and to see them for what they are shows you've been making great steps forward. :smthumbup: How's the DBT going?


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

Hi Canardo - 

Good to hear your update. I can totally relate to the "fishing" contacts from the X's or STBX's who were the ones wanting to end the marriage. I've had the same thing from my X-H, and still get the occasional "just wondering how you are doing" kind of email or text.

If she is grieving now or having regrets, you are spot on -- she fired you as her friend and source of support.

I feel the same way with regards to communications from my X-H. Unless by some wild stretch of imagination (which I'm not counting on ever happening in a million years) he would tell me "I've changed my mind," we don't really have much to talk about. 

I guess the best things is to either ignore than, or give very short answers if you engage at all. Otherwise, it is just their attempts to assuage their guilt in a lame effort to see if you can "be friends" -- or testing you to see if they still have emotional hooks in you.

It is great to hear you have made some real progress with moving on!!!! Don't let her fishing expeditions thwart you or set you back, OK?

Cheers, - A12


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## Canardo (Mar 23, 2013)

Thanks, as always, angelpixie and A12! It's great to hear from you. I was certain that she wanted something from me when she called, so much that I asked her what she wanted. She insisted that she just wanted to say hi. I realize that she called on the day before our anniversary, so maybe she was feeling especially melancholy. 

I think fishing expedition is right. She probably got used to my emotional neediness and felt a void when I stopped reaching out. In fact, she was the one who told me, in no uncertain terms, that I "need to move on." So I did, or at least I'm trying to. I also grew tired of the constant rejection and occasional meanness. I didn't want to expose myself to that anymore -- it was too damaging to me. I'm not sure why she would want to potentially sabotage all this by initiating contact with me, when she knows exactly how I feel about the D. 

But to be honest I was happy to hear from her. Not necessarily to speak with her (I didn't enjoy that) -- I just felt for the first time the dynamics between us shifting slightly. For the first time, she was looking to *me* for support! For a moment at least, she needed me! She was the one feeling down and depressed, and I wasn't! I'm not proud of those feelings, but they were definitely there if I'm being honest. I also mentioned to her that I will likely be leaving the country for several months for a work opportunity abroad. She seemed to have mixed feelings about it, as do I. 

While we were on the phone, she took the opportunity to check the status of the D on the family court website. 

Overall I'm doing well with IC. I've made vast improvements in emotional regulation (according to my therapist!). I really feel like I've made some lasting changes in how I deal with my emotions, like I've had some success in "re-wiring" emotional myself. Now I'm really trying to focus on rebuilding my life -- reconnecting with friends, taking better care of my body, going on dates with some wonderful women, etc. It's a slow rebuilding process, but I'm feeling much more optimistic that I had previously been.


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## Awakening2012 (Apr 13, 2012)

HOOO Rahh! Canardo, you sound great, and should be very proud of how far you've come. Bright new chapters lie ahead :yay:

Keep up the great work, and keep us posted about your possible assignment abroad -- sounds exciting!

Cheers,- A12


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