# Taken for granted



## Clickk (Oct 12, 2011)

I need advice, feedback, opinions on what to do in my situation? I am married and love my wife dearly both of us working I earn much more. I am in a very fortunate position right now as my income has multiplied considerably and trying to build up a nest so as to secure our future. I have setup a budget and lifestyle that we should have and not go to crazy and live the lifestyle according to what I am earning right now because it is not going to be forever. This is because about 5 years back I was broke and in thousands of debt and carefully dug myself out of the big hole and I want to ensure I am never in that situation again and inturn have become very good with managing money.

The wife on the other hand also has a job but has decided to keep her own bank account with her salary going in each month and does not pay for anything. I have provided her with a credit card which she uses without a second thought which I always try to pay off each month, I pay the bills, food, expenses, luxury holidays, her car, my car and anything else that she may desire with money not being an obstacle.

I tried to get her involved in the budget process so we are on the same page, she decided not to bother as it is boring and she much prefers the spending part. I just get the feeling she just considers me her cashpoint and is taking me for granted because when I try to talk to her about it she will just call me a ‘scrooge’ and ‘not caring’. Her justification is that I earn and still have 50% left over after expenditures so can splurge more often but happens to be splurging from the income I earn.

I am really starting to feel unappreciated as she is really having a great lifestyle compared to everyone in the family but is just taking everything for granted and me as well and always insists I am not the only one who provides! her reply 'Your not the only husband who provides for their family' 

So whilst I am doing my best to be the provider should I not deserve more appreciation? and wife to follow the budget process so we are on the same page to show she cares? joint bank account? or am I being a fool?


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## Voiceofreason (Mar 6, 2011)

You pay for everything and her salary goes in her separate account??? 

Come on, you know this is preposterous. She is not your mistress--she is you wife. All for one, one for all. Separate accounts can work when both pay out their accounts for common expenses, but if she is not contributing at all, she is abusing you. Don't put up with it.


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## ihaveacupcake (Oct 18, 2011)

Wow. I can't even imagine. If I WAS fortunate enough to find someone willing to do that there is no way on earth I would be unappreciative! I'm not slamming your wife or judging her at all, maybe she doesn't understand the importance of each dollar. My husband is very insistent on us splitting EVERYTHING down the MIDDLE, even though he makes more. You're definitely not the only man who provides for his family but gender roles are changing and unless she sits home and has dinner ready with a baby on her hip, maybe she should re think the financial set up. Things aren't as cut and dry as they used to be. It sounds like you can't really talk with her without getting some kind of adolescent guilt trip about it, maybe just cut her off. Tell her the truth and she can take it or leave it. You are trying to save for your futureS and she also expects that credit card to be unrestricted? Lower the limit? I really don't know what the answer is but I bet you already do somewhere deep down, at least that's the truth 90% of the time, we just don't WANT it to be. Just wanted to validate your feelings!


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Clickk said:


> I have provided her with a credit card which she uses without a second thought which I always try to pay off each month, I pay the bills, food, expenses, luxury holidays, her car, my car and anything else that she may desire with money not being an obstacle.
> 
> I tried to get her involved in the budget process so we are on the same page, she decided not to bother as it is boring and she much prefers the spending part.
> 
> when I try to talk to her about it she will just call me a ‘scrooge’ and ‘not caring’.


Honestly, I had to read this twice just to check I had it right - that you're writing about your wife and not your spoiled teenage daughter. 

Has it always been this way between you? How long have you been together? What is her money set aside for?

Really if you don't want to feel taken for granted, you need to change the dynamic between you. It sounds too much like a parent-child relationship. She throws a tantrum and calls you 'scrooge' when you try to talk to her about finances? This needs to change. It's immature and disrespectful. The only way it can though, begins with you and how you interact with her. 

Why did you give her a credit card? If she keeps her account separate and doesn't pay for anything, why can't she get her own credit card - AND ensure it's paid off? There's definitely something to be said for being on the same page with goals, financially and otherwise. I'm amazed that she doesn't show interest on her own accord in understanding, learning and respecting where you're at financially as a couple. But maybe it's because she doesn't need to - because she no doubt snaps her fingers and (at least materialistically) gets what she wants.


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## F-102 (Sep 15, 2010)

So let me get this straight.

The money you make is for ALL of you to live on, and the money she makes is hers to play with and HERS alone. Another classic case of "What's his is ours and what's mine is MINE!"

Yes, she is taking full advantage of you, and if you try to stand up and make her contribute her fair share, you will get the book thrown at you.


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## Lon (Jun 6, 2011)

If she doesn't want to bother in the budgeting, then don't bother her with things such as paying for her credit card bills, trips, car, and other luxuries she feels entitled to.

If she is unwilling to contribute part of her income to bills, groceries and other necessary expenses make sure that you can cover them, but beyond that you have no onus to provide her with a better lifestyle than you can afford. Since its your job as budget coordinator then assign her what you think is fair, let her make her case and be fair, because you have all the power to take control of this not her.


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## Anubis (Jul 12, 2011)

Clickk said:


> I tried to get her involved in the budget process so we are on the same page, she decided not to bother as it is boring and she much prefers the spending part. I just get the feeling she just considers me her cashpoint and is taking me for granted because when I try to talk to her about it she will just call me a ‘scrooge’ and ‘not caring’.


My goodness, you just gave me PTSD-quality flashbacks to my ex-wife. Her reaction to needing to budget was "I don't want to... I'm going to take a nap". (not kidding, that was her literal response to a GF who was trying to help her come up with a budget during our separation).

My advice: Come with an *exact* budget plan one that makes her responsible for some things like her car, giver her a chance to be both thrifty and enjoy some things if she's disciplined and forces her to make choices in her day to day life.... and then implement it and put your foot down *HARD*. 

Take away the credit card in you name, and be ready for an extended ***tstorm to be thrown your way. Be unflinching in your resolve for the next 3 to 6 months. It will be a serious test of the power dynamic in your relationship, and an indicator of how either your marriage will be in 5-10 years, or how your divorce will go. It will also tell you how much she cares for you vs. how much she cares for money.

She's riding the gravy train right now, and in her mind she probably feels that she deserves for it continue for her *forever*. Notice I said "for her". Do you have kids yet? If not, expect that when you do that a) the demands for free money on the magic credit cards will double, and b) you will be #3 or lower on her priority list, and even lower on the list of people she will respect.

She's not the first woman to do this, and won't be the last. I've seen quite a few women like this personally. One interesting trait I've often seen is that the less they do to actually earn the money, the stronger their sense of entitlement and "right" to the money while simultaneously losing respect for the work it takes to make it. Call it "other people's money" syndrome. I can recall my (now ex-) wife telling me "What do you mean NO? Ten thousand dollars is nothing!" when she was trying to get me to give her $10K for something she wanted to buy. She had been a SAHM and had/still has ZERO idea what I did to provide for us.

Another thing I've encountered a lot is no concern whatsoever for the possibly that the big money flow will come to an end unexpectedly. I think it's a denial thing, because if they acknowledge it then it's a lot harder for them to argue that they should not have any spending caps. When it happened to me personally, my (now ex-) wife went into some sort tantrum / rage and shouted things at me like "There are 6-figure paying jobs on every corner around here (small town in Texas? I don't think so...)" and "I could so easily find a another guy who makes twice as much as you" (really? my 5-year average AGI at the time was $165K and she was mid-30s and 250#+ )

Clickk, don't be like me. Make a stand that is early and strong and resolute. Ten years ago I had job paying in the low 6-figures, but also had over a half-million dollars in a brokerage account thanks to the buyout of the company I worked for. We were set for a safe middle class life with some nice perks, but I didn't manage it well enough. When we divorced, the brokerage account was closed and $80K in home equity was gone. I got $70K in "marital" debt in the divorce settlement and she got a fresh start.

My ex would blame shift and say it was all due to our house ($300K purchase price -put nearly $100K into making it what she wanted, only to later have her blame me 100% for the choice of it), and a 2nd "fun" car I got (had for 4 years, total net cost was $35K), but when I did a full review of our financial records of the 8 years prior to divorce, it wasn't the house or my car that did it- it was her unchecked spending. Every single month for nearly 5 years I had to take 5 to 10 thousand dollars from the brokerage account to cover expenses beyond my salary. We had kids, and she had to have the best of everything for them, as well as the best furniture, car. etc for herself. She indulged in expensive hobbies and trips while I worked. 

I tried to stem the tide of red ink, but she would throw a tirade and accuse me of not being a good dad, good husband, or a thousand other things. When I made a sign with 3/4" letters that said "At this rate of spending we will be bankrupt on X date" and put it in her bathroom where could not avoid seeing it, she tore it down went into a rage, and screamed and very nearly got physically violent at me. That was how strong her need to deny the reality was.

Despite being divorced and having sucker, I mean husband, #2 lined up so she never will work a day in her adult life, I still get regular complaints from her how she deserves much more money from me for the rest of her life. All this from a woman who cheated on me multiple times, no less.

Let my real-life story be a cautionary tail. Giving your wife a credit card that always get magically paid off is the worst thing you can do. Yes, I know you want her to be taken care of and to not have to worry, but if she doesn't have "skin in the game" - her own money made from her own hard work - at risk, she's never going value it, or all the work you did to earn it.


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## Zzyzx (Aug 24, 2011)

The OP's first step should be take his credit card away from her and make her get her own card. Her reaction to that will tell him whether their marriage can survive long term. If she reacts badly enough and does not back down, he should start thinking about divorce.

Regarding a wife's rejection of her husband's leadership in financial matters and money management, I wish I wasn't speaking from experience...


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## Clickk (Oct 12, 2011)

Hey I just wanna thank everyone's reply and the sound advice given

Especially Anubis's past experience describes exactly what I am going through now. Yep I have a kid as well and I want him to be brought up grounded but now it seems her demands for the best for her and best for him and there is no stopping it. As the guilt trip for not buying my kid the best is the one I always lose!

I think you are all right its time to take the credit card back and get ready for the your not a 'good husband' 'dad' and other unpleasant things tirade!

Anubis the other thing your right about is the strong sense of entitlement, its not like she was born into money quite the opposite! but since having this access after marrying me seems to have just gone completely overboard. If you say NO! then its like I have committed a crime. For someone who never had or knew any designer brands now buys nothing less and spending $1000 on a handbag is ok. 

Time to take the bull by the horns and get some control and respect back!


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## evian123 (May 8, 2011)

well, I disagree with Clickc. It might appear that it is respect required from the wife, but I bet anything respect elsewhere is really at the core of this. 

The reason I say this is because for the last 5 years I had a business that failed, and all the money I put into it (though I did get a little bit of income from it in the early days) was lost. On top of having to deal with lost money, I also had to deal emotionally with a failed business. That was pretty tough, but I am strong. As a result, I've not really brought income in for the last 4 years, and my husband has been having to support me completely (we've been together for 16 years). We have no children, and nor am I one of those great spenders. He has a very well paid job. Even when I was bringing in a little bit of something, he wanted to be SEEN to be in the best restaurants, best neighbourhoods etc. No way could I afford that on my measly income - AND I am an artist for godsake!! So, my own self esteem struggled keeping up with his income levels, and then he had the nerve to start complaining that I don't pay for anything.

I was paying for small things - like the broadband and TV license and the odd restaurant. That is all I could afford really. It was like a part of me gave up even trying after a while because there was no way I could afford going to places he wanted to go, live where he wanted to live.

I have since started to retrain to give myself better prospects job wise. He has increasingly become more and more cranky about the financial situation, and I agreed to a budget. I also got a PT temp job in between FT school. So, I was making a considerable effort. 

It wasn't enough though. He was STILL COMPLAINING! 

So, I don't buy the 'it's the money' problem - not from my experience anyway. Just because you think it's the money, it really isn't. There's something more going on. You say you feel taken for granted? My husband would say the same thing regularly! 

Now, what I do accept entirely as my fault is that I failed to regularly appreciate his long work hours and all the money he was bringing in. This is my number one fault that I accept hands down. In fairness to me, I was trying. But if he said to me, "I would like to feel some appreciation for all the work I do and the efforts I make to keep this household running," then I could have been more targetted in my response, instead of wasting my time agreeing to stupid budgets and spreading myself thin getting a PT job while also studying for a masters - all to please appease him - thus me becoming cranky and tired and contributing to the negativity already existing. 

If the complainer knew how to make CLEAR complaints, lots of this sort of stuff could be resolved. Afterall, it's a team effort that everyone wants to be a part of, right? It's down to being honest with yourself and with your partner in your communications. Get clear with yourself and then with your partner.

CLARITY might have saved our marriage. So, do you feel appreciated for what efforts you make in getting the money situation sorted? That could be the problem. I would point blank ask her to appreciate the efforts you are making, and she might just wake up to that fact as well and get herself motivated.

We will be getting a divorce soon because well, it just got to him - it wasn't just the money though. I hope the next woman he finds is similar to the ones you describe here above - ie, entitlement attitudes. I hope you gets someone just like him who is more interested in money than in communication. I see now that money sometimes is the only thing that speaks volumes - which is really too bad. 

Not one guy here has talked about their communication levels, and also why did they marry such "money-grabbers" in the first place? Ego?

At the end of the day, I would ask her for what you REALLY want. Grow some love and appreciation. The appreciation will help enormously. I know it's hard on the pride front - and that's its effect on you but it is for you to handle. 

There is more to this than meets the eye. I wish you well.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

ClickK,

On the surface your story does indeed sound like your wife is being very selfish.

However there is more info needed before I'd jump on the bandwagon.

For example your wife says that after paying all the bills you have 50% of your take home left over. It sounds like you make a very good salary.

If you take (your-monthly-pay + wife's-monthly-pay), what is the percentage of the monthly family income that is your wife's monthly income?


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## Dellia (Jan 6, 2012)

EleGirl said:


> ClickK,
> 
> On the surface your story does indeed sound like your wife is being very selfish.
> 
> ...


True, but he made it very clear that after digging himself out of past debt, he is being wise and preparing, financially, for THEIR future.

I personally feel the wife's behavior is both spoiled and selfish. If she wants HER money to have as her own play money, I think the husband should cancel all credit cards that HE pays for for her. Afterall, iif she doesn't want to give, why should she take?

Personally, I would put my money in the bank WITH my husband's and together decide what is left over to split, as a monthly allowance.


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

I understand your feelings. She sounds spoiled. If I were you, I would put my foot down. No more credit card and spending out of control. What if you lose your job? 

If she wants more money, then, hey, she can earn it. It's the same I feel with parents who give their kids everything - the kids never learn to appreciate a dollar. Well, your wife is like those spoiled kids - doesn't appreciate a dollar. 

When she says she doesn't want to get involved in the budgeting process, insist she does. What if something happened to you? She wouldn't even know how to manage the checkbook and bills. Maybe suggest she read one of Suzie Orman's finance books for women that encourage women to be involved in family finances.

Don't allow it anymore. She won't respect you, and next thing you know, once she loses respect, she will want to be with some other guy. Then, she will divorce you and ask for monthly maintenance (if your state allows it - my state rarely allows it) to keep her in the lifestyle she's become accustomed to. And you will be earning the money and living in a small apartment while she's out living it up with some other guy. Is that what you want?


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## tennisstar (Dec 19, 2011)

I also agree with the poster who said that it seems the less women earn, the more it seems they like to spend other people's money. Now, this always true - I've heard of many SAHMs who are frugal and stretch the family budget as far as possible. But the women I know who earn less or earn nothing seem to think they are so entitled. A few weeks ago, one of my friends was complaining she wasn't paid enough and was bored at work (she isn't married; she would love to find a man to take care of her). She wants to make the same as me; however, she has no degree and has job hoped for years. I have a masters degree and have been in the same field, and with the same company, for 10 years. But she feels ENTITLED to more money. She sponges off her mom and aunt constantly and feels that they have a responsibility to help her live above her means. If she was married, I have no doubt she would feel very entitled to her husband's money. And what I think is funny is she wants a guy earning a big salary - not just a regular guy like my husband - no way, he would never make enough for her.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Dellia said:


> True, but he made it very clear that after digging himself out of past debt, he is being wise and preparing, financially, for THEIR future.
> 
> I personally feel the wife's behavior is both spoiled and selfish. If she wants HER money to have as her own play money, I think the husband should cancel all credit cards that HE pays for for her. Afterall, iif she doesn't want to give, why should she take?
> 
> Personally, I would put my money in the bank WITH my husband's and together decide what is left over to split, as a monthly allowance.


My point is that we do not know where they both fall income wise. Let's say he brings home 20K a month and she brings home 2K a month, I don't wee a problem with her having 2K a month in spending money

On the other hand, if he brings in 4K a month and she brings in 4K a month there is a huge problem in her spending.

On this forum we only get one side of the story. On the surface the OP sounds like he's reasonable and his wife is out of hand. But she is not here to explain her side of things. So IMHO there is more info needed.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

F-102 said:


> So let me get this straight.
> 
> The money you make is for ALL of you to live on, and the money she makes is hers to play with and HERS alone. Another classic case of "What's his is ours and what's mine is MINE!"
> 
> Yes, she is taking full advantage of you, and if you try to stand up and make her contribute her fair share, you will get the book thrown at you.


:iagree:

I think is a character and respect issue. She does not want to put any resources into the marriage and berates you for trying to restore some balance. IMO I think she really doesn't believe you are miserly; she just knows her position is indefensible and thus is unwilling to have the conversation.

You need to insist on that conversation. That means you get the nut sack to insist on saying your piece and don't be afraid of what she might say to you. If you are afraid of her distancing herself from you, you need to consider why you want to be with someone who seems to be along largely (or entirely) for the free ride.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> My point is that we do not know where they both fall income wise. Let's say he brings home 20K a month and she brings home 2K a month, I don't wee a problem with her having 2K a month in spending money.


Not so fast.

Even if he is bringing home 20k a month, he most likely has a large house payment (which she shares, rent free), a nice lifestyle (which she partakes in), and has a nice retirement account (which will continue to subsidize her after his income has fallen off).

With what stuff costs (at least in some parts), it's entirely possible that he does not spend $2k per month on himself after all the bills are paid - yet she should get to keep her whole salary? Moreover, if there is this large a discrepancy in their incomes then me most likely works much harder than she does - so it would make sense that the extra effort is followed by some sort of larger reward.

Also, the OP says that his wife does not even pay for her own personal upkeep.

IMO, you have to have some skin in the game. The OP's wife should accept responsibility for paying a bill for him or the household (not just her own stuff), even if minor, just to demonstrate a certain level of commitment to their joint future.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Click, two more things:

1) You go through this thread and you'll see that the advice is overwhelmingly similar. That should say something.

2) I saw where you said we might think your wife came from money but in fact it was quite the opposite. I am zeroing in on the "quite the opposite" part of this.

I believe our situations have some parallels and I think this may be the key to getting a handle on your situation. I never quite cracked the six-figure level but I made really good money (with really good benefits and working conditions to boot). At the peak, I made a little more than double what she did (including bonuses) and paid for the mortgage, utilities, groceries, car and insurance, and most of our daughter's needs; I also did most of the housework. Her pay was essentially "play money".

My ex came from a family that consistently needed handouts to just have the basics. They never did better than getting by and worse when her dad became permanently disabled and mom refused to muster the enthusiasm to fill the void. There were abuse and extended stints in foster care - the whole nine yards.

When some other issues came to a head in our marriage I got some wise input from a counselor that brought the situation into focus. What this counselor said (Part 1) is that well-adjusted people choose partners based on an appropriate balance of "how much do I love this person" and "what does this person bring to the table". It's never all one or the other.

This counselor (part 2) also said when a person is raised in that environment this decision making process becomes seriously skewed towards "what does this person bring to the table". The "how much do I love this person" factor is still there but it isn't given nearly the weight that it should be. The counselor did emphasize that these are only explanations - not excuses. She still has to treat others fairly and seek counseling to overcome these issues and be a responsible adult.

How this played out for me is: my ex had two goals. One was to get herself into a situation of financial security (which then became an expectation of abundance). She was going to secure her own prosperity as much as possible, and the means (faking interest in sex, concealing spending, hiding money, refusing to engage in discussion and compromise) to achieve this are justified by the perceived importance of the end (personal financial prosperity above all else).

The second goal was to have children to "prove" that she could be a more effective parent than her own were. If she perceived that her childhood lacked material possession, "fun" play time, and protection from threats; then that was what she was going to provide to her kids (even to excess).

So, her drive for material possessions and an unconditional parent-child bond permeated everything. She wanted to prove to the world that she can take care of her business, have nice stuff, and have a family so that she was not the failure her own parents were. The fact that her ultimate goal was maximizing her short-term personal utility severely limits how effectively she met any of these objectives - that's problem one.

She in fact (ironically) is stuck in a child-like developmental state. Concepts like "duty" and "responsibility" are foreign and negative. Suggestions that she do a little less of what works for her right now and / or work harder to benefit me, the family unit, or even herself at a later date were scorned and ridiculed. She had a rough childhood (admittedly through no fault of her own) and felt entitled to a way of life that compensated for it - that's problem two. Unfortunately, that someone was me.

The consequence, ultimately, is that when I was unable or unwilling to remain in the same dynamic I became worthless to her. (Note: I had gotten laid-off and it was clear that it would take a number of years to get back to my former earning level. I had also made it clear I was unwilling to continue being her maid and wallet.)

She said she mislead me about the type of wife she would be, because she knew that if she was honest I would not have accepted her marriage proposal. She told me that she knew she had issues but that the benefit to me was not worth the effort it would take to overcome them. She had asserted that, given her childhood, she was entitled to be coddled in the manner she desired. So, ultimately, it was my fault the marriage ended.

Click, I didn't put this all out here to just vent or to say that you're doomed. I don't know enough about your situation. The point is that counselor noted people growing up in tough circumstances most likely have experienced some trauma as a result, with predictable influence on the way they conduct their lives. I would suggest that you look at the circumstances of your wife's childhood and consider the possibility that (1) she will not change without serious professional intervention and (2) her underlying attitudes, if unresolved, will permanently and seriously impair her ability to be an appropriate wife or mother.

As alluded to earlier, she might value you only as a provider, blame you for everything she does not like, and walk out if she doesn't get her way. Alternatively, she might get healthy and realize that she should not have married you, accepts responsibility for her bad choice, and walks out nonetheless. But this dynamic (if applicable) is so burdensome to you (and harmful to your child) that shaking things up even given the real risk of eventual divorce is well worthwhile.

I wish you well. I understand how intractable this may seem, and within the context of your marriage it may be. But you cannot be afraid to push for better and accept the consequences.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Shut down the joint bank account and get your own she can`t access.

Shut down the credit cards.

watch the fireworks.


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