# Wife says she is done



## john1024

Last week, my wife informed me that she wanted a divorce. We have been married almost 11 years and have 2 children. I knew that we were having communication problems -- we were both working long hours, not talking much beyond conversations about the kids or what needed to get done around the house, no affection -- but I didn't think it had come to getting a divorce.

She informed me that she has felt that I neglected and did not value her for a couple of years, but held it in. She claims she never talked to anyone about it. Kept thinking it would get better, but it didn't. And then she finally decided that she had had enough, moved on in her mind, and is happier. She says she will always love me as the father of her children, acknowledges that all the good times that we had will never be erased, but says she no longer loves me as a husband. 

I am devastated. Devastated that she had to hold this in for so long and to think what pain I caused her. Devastated that she didn't tell me sooner, so that we could work on it, when she admits there was time to change things. Devastated that I didn't get any input or a chance to make changes before she made what she says is a final decision. And devastated that this is all based on miscommunication and misunderstanding. She says I didn't help enough around the house or show interest in her enough; I would say that she is right, but I would have done more if she just let me know that is what she wanted. Instead, I misread her frustration with me as something else -- did she not love me anymore? was I too fat? was she having an affair? -- and then I started to resent the way she was acting. Then she resented me more for resenting her, and so on and so forth. Instead of her saying, "It really hurts me that you don't listen to me when I talk about my day," or me saying "I want to hear about your day, but I had a bad one myself. Can we talk later?" 

My friends say there is a disconnect. You don't just go straight to "I want a divorce." Some have suggested an affair, but for various reasons (one being she said that if one of us had had an affair this would be easier), I don't think so. They say it is unfair that she held all of this back from me. She would say I should have noticed and didn't. And even if she was unfair, it's too late; the feelings are gone.

Right now I am in denial. I can't believe that she doesn't love me anymore. I just think she has 2 years of **** piled on top of all that was good. She kept it all inside, never talked to anyone about it, went through all of the pain and anger and confusion on her own, decided things would never get better, and then determined that she would be happier on her own. I have to believe that our love is still in there somewhere. That if someone just taught us how to communicate, how to build a stronger relationship, how to make time for one another, we could make this work.

She has agreed to go to counseling for the purpose of learning to communicate better as a separated/divorced couple and for the children. She is clear that she does not have it in her to try to love me again. She says she doesn't want to give me false hope. I have been clear that I want the same for our communication skills and for the kids, but I hold out hope that once we talk things through and start working together, she will see that all is not hopeless and will see that this happens to lots of people and does not mean the end.

At first we talked about separating at the beginning of next month, but she has agreed to the end of the school year to do it right (for the kids/finances/etc.). I still took that as a small sign of hope.

So many more details and thoughts, but this is getting long. Am I just plain crazy?


----------



## tacoma

You need to investigate hard core to find out if there is another man.

I`ll repeat, there is most likely 99.99999% chance there is another man somewhere in your wife`s life holding a special place in her mind.

Don`t ask her if she`s in an affair, don`t say a word about the subject just start quietly looking into it quickly.

Counseling is good if only for a stalling factor but if she`s truly checked out she`ll lose interest in that real fast and it won`t do any good anyway.

Look for the other man.

Put a VAR (voice activated recorder) in her car, a key logger on her PC.

Check her cell phone records for excessive texts/calls.

You have to make certain beyond a reasonable doubt there is no other man before you can do anything other than call a lawyer and begin covering your ass.


----------



## john1024

I know that seems like a reasonable explanation, and that it is hard for me to see it being right in the middle of this, but I really do believe her. She has been hurt by cheating before; hates it; detests it; a real dealbreaker for her. I would have said the same thing until this happened. I don't know if I really could do this, but I told her that I could get over the fact if she had had or was having an affair. She said that was ridiculous. I even asked her if maybe there was an emotional affair going on -- someone who treated her better than me and would jump at the chance for more. She said no. And, again, she said all of this would be much easier if there was something like an affair. Why wouldn't she just tell the truth to get it through my thick skull if that were the case?


----------



## PBear

Do a search for "walk away wives". I think yours has taken a page out of that textbook. You might find something to help you turn things around.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

john1024 said:


> I know that seems like a reasonable explanation, and that it is hard for me to see it being right in the middle of this, but I really do believe her. She has been hurt by cheating before; hates it; detests it; a real dealbreaker for her. I would have said the same thing until this happened. I don't know if I really could do this, but I told her that I could get over the fact if she had had or was having an affair. She said that was ridiculous. I even asked her if maybe there was an emotional affair going on -- someone who treated her better than me and would jump at the chance for more. She said no. And, again, she said all of this would be much easier if there was something like an affair. Why wouldn't she just tell the truth to get it through my thick skull if that were the case?


Can be many reasons. Shame, exposure to family and friends, community reasons, get a better deal in divorce settlement ..


----------



## Toffer

John,
What harm could it do you to check and see if there is someone else?

BTW, don't ask her about this. You need to do your own investigating. As others have said, get a keylogger on her PC, get a hold of the cell phone records on line or sent to you and consider a VAR in her car

These steps will either put your mind to rest or point out what really may be happening.

I think there's a strong possibility that she's at least in an emotional affair (EA). She has probably been sharing her tales of woe about you with some guy and it's advanced to the stage of "He really understands me" and "he knows what I have been going through"

Investigate! What do you have to lose at this point in time?


----------



## Pluto2

As a spouse with a neglectful husband I disagree with the posters who believe there is another man. What gets me about your post-and I'm not trying to be mean-is that you admit that you didn't help and that you neglected her, but its her fault for not telling you. Why should she have to? Why should she only get help and respect when she asks for it? You are not a child and you shouldn't have to be told to pick up your things, or do the dishes, or whatever it is that needed to be done. Clearly there was miscommunication on both sides, but do NOT blame her because you were being inconsiderate.
Is she willing to try MC?


----------



## worrieddad

John, around 5 months ago, I could have almost written your post. A lot of "holding it in/resentment/miscommunication" issues on both sides...then the "I want out" bomb.

Unfortunately, I have to say that it seems that once their mind is made up, it is pretty much done....time and time again it appears here on this forum. I fought it for a month or so, trying like never before to show how committed I was to the marriage (just made things worse), but finally relented and said "OK, lets get down to planning how it is going to go". Once we hit that point, the crazy thing was it was like a huge weight was lifted, and in the months that followed, the stbx and I actually communicated at a deep level (over many beers, either at home or out together!) more than we had in months if not years....we carried out such an in detail post-mortem on the whole situation, aired everything we could possibly think of about the meaning of life, the universe and everything. Lots of laughs, lots of tears...it has been uncanny, really....but all of it made no difference - she had crossed that "I'm done" barrier.

We have been moved into our respective new places following the sale of the house in late December. I have to say, everything is going very well at this point. During all of our extensive talking, we agreed to everything, no fights about money, 50/50 with our daughter, and so on. The big weight off of my mind is that we were and still are so focused on our daughter, and she is handling the transition well, much better than ever expected; she knows she has two parents who love her very much no matter what.

My advice to you would be to get any gargantuan "trying to save it" efforts out of your system. Do what you need to do, but when you can do no more, get down to giving her an "OK", and have your own plan in your head of what you want out of the split - be totally fair....and then talk some more, and more, and more; make sure your children are going to be OK.

Re the other's advice about the possibility of an EA/PA....I do agree with them, you need to snoop it out for your own peace of mind....which I did to the enth degree, however in my case there turned out to be not another guy, but a close bond with other divorcee friends who had taken over the role of her confidants, rather than her coming to me, which no doubt has served to solidify her decision. You could call an EA with friends, I guess. But whatever it is, it will help you to know, for sure - so definitely do it.

The point I'm at now is basically, if she is really *that* done with me....then I can now only accept it....and I can now see the future, and it ain't all bad.

To summarize, I'd say:

Try all you can to "save" it - you can then at least walk with your head held high. Leave any future second guessing to her.

Do snoop - even if there is no-one else, you will likely learn a lot about her and where her head is. At this point, don't be naive, and don't be trusting, as hard as it is. 

While you still have the opportunity and are together and can talk....talk about everything, especially "How it is going to be".

Get yourself in a mindset of "You have to look out for yourself, and your children" - work on improving yourself.....envisage a personal life without her.

Do talk to people who you trust and can understand - on this board, your divorced friends, etc. You need a support network, and it really is good to talk - you can bet she is. Don't bottle it up, seek out those trusted friends and family members, they will help you.

Good luck!


----------



## worrieddad

Pluto2 said:


> As a spouse with a neglectful husband I disagree with the posters who believe there is another man. What gets me about your post-and I'm not trying to be mean-is that you admit that you didn't help and that you neglected her, but its her fault for not telling you. Why should she have to? Why should she only get help and respect when she asks for it? You are not a child and you shouldn't have to be told to pick up your things, or do the dishes, or whatever it is that needed to be done. Clearly there was miscommunication on both sides, but do NOT blame her because you were being inconsiderate.
> Is she willing to try MC?


The thing is, this is classic "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus" stuff.

He is admitting all these things now because he is feeling devastated, blaming himself, and looking back on it with 20/20 hindsight - but chances are, he had no idea how much it was *really* bothering her. So she should have told him sooner....after all, she is the one who has decided she is "Done". People have different priorities in life as to what is important and what is not, and if the other party truly does not realize the importance placed on certain things, they need to be made aware. The time to have these conversations is before one decides one is "Done", not after.

IMHO there is a big difference between true, blatant willful neglect, and relatively minor things left undone, and unthought about.


----------



## cdavis

I am going through the same thing you are, except with 3 kids. Pretty much exactly the same story, done to feelings and her staying until school ends for the year. I was 99.5% certain my STBX was not cheating also, and went to elaborate methods to get into her communication channels and have found that she is NOT. I am dealing with the same thing, no effort to do anything to address problems or go to counseling.... with the same excuse, she does not want to give me false hope. Unfortunately I really don't have any advise for you, no approach I have tried works. If mine stays it will be the kids guilting her into it.


----------



## Lon

John, like worrieddad, about a year ago my W too was saying the same yours is now, almost verbatim. I was soaking up all the blame, feeling that she is entitled to her feelings and if she wants out I'd do everything to prove to her that I was good enough for her... I just let her "leash" out longer, basically knocked down my boundaries so she could have the space she so sincerely was asking for, saying she needed to collect her thoughts and find herself again.

It was all BS, she even had her best friends convinced that she was merely done the marriage, but of course it wasn't so simple, there is ALWAYS a reason for someone to change the staus quo. My reaction to her choices only confirmed her thoughts that I was being a doormat and weak. So I say to you, if she is done, whether she is planning an exit affair or not, STOP SEEKING HER APPROVAL right now! if she says she wants out, then SHOW HER THE DOOR, you honestly have nothing to lose by doing so, because once she is out of your life she is gone, and anything between now and then will only cause you more pain and frustration.

But more so, taking charge of your own life now really will leave an impression on her that she can't ignore, if she has any integrity she may see it and choose to put stay in the marriage, if so then don't sweep these problems under the rug, use the wake up call and start putting your needs on the table, show her that you deserve a W who will stand by you through thick and thin. Don't waver on this, get professional help if you need (counseling, fitness instructor, physician to keep on top of your health, nutritionist etc), read no more mr nice guy by Robert Glover and do the breaking-free exercises.


----------



## john1024

Pluto2 said:


> As a spouse with a neglectful husband I disagree with the posters who believe there is another man. What gets me about your post-and I'm not trying to be mean-is that you admit that you didn't help and that you neglected her, but its her fault for not telling you. Why should she have to? Why should she only get help and respect when she asks for it? You are not a child and you shouldn't have to be told to pick up your things, or do the dishes, or whatever it is that needed to be done. Clearly there was miscommunication on both sides, but do NOT blame her because you were being inconsiderate.
> Is she willing to try MC?


Agree 100%. I didn't mean it to sound like I was putting all of the blame on her. I was a blockhead; lazy; inconsiderate. I am so sorry for what I put her through. It wasn't malicious, but I did it nonetheless. She should not have had to tell me, but if things got that bad (or before they got that bad) she should have told me because our marriage and our family is too important to throw away.


----------



## john1024

First, thanks to all, especially worrieddad, for the posts.

We went to first counseling session last night. Basically just answered questions about our past and what brought us there for 90 minutes. Then at the end, the counselor said that, albeit only an initial impression, she didn't think my wife had totally closed the door. That was what I wanted to hear, especially from a professional with 30 years of experience, but I recognize that it was just an initial assessment and that it sets us up for more counseling (i.e. $). I also recognize that it irritated my wife. She didn't lose her cool, but she was either mad b/c the counselor did not understand her position or mad/scared b/c maybe the counselor was right. Trying to balance being 100% invested in making this thing work but not get overly optimistic. Each day, I try to think of one thing to get us closer to where I want to be and do it. At best, I pull it off; at worst, I gave it a try and make the best out of a bad situation.


----------



## Beowulf

I'm going to post some links for you. I want you to read them very carefully. After reading them you probably should share them with your wife. At the end I'm going to paste something from another thread. You should print it out and give it to your wife.

The Walkaway Wife Syndrome | Psychology Today

FRIVOLOUS DIVORCE

IAV|Does Divorce Make People Happy?

----------------------------------------------------------------
Why I (and, I suspect, many separated women) regret divorcing

By Jane Gordon

Last weekend, at a family wedding in the country, I was overwhelmed by an emotion that has, in the last year, become only too familiar to me.

Sitting in a stifling marquee, listening to my cousin Sally's husband making the traditional father-of-the-bride speech, I was overcome by a feeling that was part envy, part guilt and part regret.

My cousin's marriage, which has lasted for 25 years, is by no means perfect - what marriage is? - but against the odds, she has achieved something that is now, and always will be, beyond my grasp.

As I looked at her sitting happy and radiant at the top table, laughing uproariously at her husband's far from funny jokes, I realised that, in a world that has horribly devalued the institution of marriage, she was reaping the benefits of putting the love and security of her family first, before any disagreements she might have with her husband in the rough and tumble of daily life.

Watching her united with her husband on such an emotional occasion reminded me sharply of exactly what I had lost - but had no idea I was losing - seven years ago, when I got divorced from my husband, the father of my three children, after 25 years together.

Our relationship had broken down, I can now see, not because of any petty irritations such as his lateness or my untidiness, but because we had both moved irrevocably away from each other.

In the past few years of our marriage, I was more absorbed in my children and my career than I was in my husband while he, feeling increasingly isolated, simply switched off.

It's a scenario that will be familiar to many couples. But how many of them choose to separate, and how many have the gumption to stick it out?

The trouble is nobody tells you the truth about divorce. They tell you it's a 'difficult' experience, and it's generally accepted that the process sits somewhere near the top of the ten most stressful life events.

But in the main it is regarded by society as a necessary evil. A milestone which, in an age when two in five UK marriages will fail, millions of us will go through at some point in our lives.

Indeed, in many ways, divorce is given a more positive spin in our confused modern world than marriage is.

The drawbacks of divorce are believed to be mostly either financial - as if the splitting up of the spoils of a life together were the very worst part of the process - or the fallout experienced by the children.

Little is ever said about the longer-term effects of divorce on the couple. No one ever points out that the repercussions of a marital split will reverberate down the timeline of your life forever.

This week, the Conservatives published a report commissioned by Iain Duncan Smith which proposed a three-month 'cooling off' period for couples considering divorce.

But the idea that couples would be ready to rethink their break-up after such a short period is unrealistic.

As I have discovered the hard way, it is only now, seven years after I received my decree nisi, that I am starting to realise the gravity of what I have done.

If it has taken me this long for the seismic shockwaves of divorce to really hit home, how are warring couples expected to take an informed decision about separation when they are in the midst of the rows, the tension and the recrimination that so often accompany the death throes of a marriage?

It is only now that I am experiencing something akin to the seven-year 'itch' of marriage; the seven-year 'ache' of divorce, a regular recurrence of the emotion I experienced at that recent wedding - a pang, a regret for what has gone for ever.

There is much in my post-divorced life that I am grateful for and happy about. I have gained a new partner and two stepchildren, and our 'blended' family is more harmonious than anyone could have expected.

My ex-husband, who is a media consultant, has 'moved on' to a perfectly ordered and elegant bachelor apartment and a social life (with a series of ever-younger girlfriends) that is the envy of his old married friends.

On the surface, we have 'come through' our split relatively unscathed. But however contented I might be with my new partner Robin - and he with me - we realise that our relationship is, well, somehow second-best.

Our true loyalties lie not with our new 'blended' family, but with our own biological children and the ex-partners from whom we were both amicably divorced.

The important occasions in family life which I used to love - birthdays, Christmas and so on - are now difficult, trying times.

They are unsatisfactory no matter how hard we try; whether my partner and I attempt - as we have on several occasions - to unite our new and old lives or agree to simply be apart for the 'sake' of our children.

Now, for example, we spend Christmas apart - each ensconced with our children and ex-partners - which causes huge tension between us and has made us both dread the annual celebrations.

When my husband and I parted, my view of divorce was simplistic. I believed in the notion of divorce as a clean break and imagined a 'fresh start' would solve all my problems.

It wasn't a decision made lightly, but I had no idea of the true complexity of unravelling a life that had been led in tandem with someone else for more than 20 years.

It was the death of my parents, within six months of each other in 2008, that was the catalyst for my change of heart.

At my father's funeral, my brother made a moving address about the formidable achievements of an extraordinary man. He concluded that the greatest achievement of all was his remarkable partnership - over 60 years - with my mother.

The fact that I had not been able to give my own children the security that I had taken for granted shamed and upset me almost as much as the loss of my adored parents.

My children hadn't lost their parents when my husband and I divorced, but they had lost their family home and the continuity of family life that makes the journey from childhood to adulthood so much more comforting and secure.

It was at that funeral that I first experienced the feeling - part envy, part guilt and part regret - that has haunted me ever since.

With my new partner sympathetically sitting by my side and my ex-husband (who shared so much of my family history and yet had somehow been edited out of it), standing in the gallery, I truly understood what I had lost.

And there have been countless other moments in the past year when I have experienced similar feelings.

Last month, I attended a dinner party thrown by a close female friend whose own marriage had shifted perilously close to the edge of divorce, shortly after mine did, because her husband had an affair.

At the time of my break-up, my view of other people's marriages was as skewed as my view of my own, and I viewed her reluctance to divorce in a cynical way - imagining that her main motivation was her fear of losing her status as a married woman.

But I now see there was a much more selfless reason for her tenacity. Because a marriage, however imperfect, isn't just important in the happy moments of life - a child's graduation or wedding for example - but also in the bad times.

Shortly after my friend and her errant husband were reunited, he lost his high-flying City job and he now admits that it would not have been possible for him to recover from that (they started a successful new business together) without her love and support.

Their relationship has changed - my friend admits that she is still wounded by his infidelity - but losing her trust in him for a time is nothing to what she would have lost had she gone ahead with her divorce.

Back then, I couldn't understand her ability to accept his behaviour. But now I have nothing but admiration for the way she was able to take a longer view of her own marriage.

Indeed, I have a similar sense of admiration and envy for a handful of other still-married friends whose relationships I had viewed somewhat cynically because they displayed such open animosity towards each other.

A good marriage - I now realise - is dependent upon the ability of both partners occasionally to be selfless and to compromise.

It is, of course, ironic that divorce has strengthened my belief in marriage. But then the years haven't just changed my view of divorce; they have inevitably blurred my memory of the reasons for our split.

Somewhere in my new home there is a large brown envelope filled with the reasons why we parted, duly noted down by lawyers, but the passage of time has made those mutually exasperating irritations seem petty.

In 2002, they were real and seemingly insurmountable. Had someone told me the truth about divorce then - explained exactly how, in the years ahead, it would impact on my life - perhaps we would still be together.
It is impossible to go back, but at the same time my divorce makes it difficult for me to move forward.

Maybe one day my new partner and I will marry, but the impact of our break-ups - he divorced several years before me - has so far prevented us from making a legal commitment to each other.

Our mutual fears that re-marriage will somehow invalidate our original families, and his concerns about the financial loss he would endure should our marriage subsequently break down, make the notion of a wedding unlikely.

But my divorce hasn't just had a major impact on the likelihood of re-marrying. I worry, too, that it has affected my children's view of marriage.

Will the repercussions of my break-up not only reverberate down the timeline of my life but also the timelines of my children's lives?

My daughters were 19 and 22 when I divorced and my son, who lives with me, was just ten.

Seven years on, my daughters are both much more focused on their careers than their love-lives, and show no sign of settling down in the way that my cousin Sally's daughter - several years younger - has done.

The long-term effects of my divorce, then, may not only deny me the opportunity to be a bride again and thus, in some way, legitimise my new relationship in the eyes of the world.

But they also could prevent me from being the mother-of-the-bride and - ultimately - a grandmother.

To paraphrase William Congreve's famous quote: 'Divorce in haste, repent at leisure.'

(The attached photo is of the author and her ex husband just before she dropped the hammer. He never saw it coming.)

Why I (and, I suspect, many separated women) regret divorcing | Mail Online


----------



## sinnister

Pluto2 said:


> As a spouse with a neglectful husband I disagree with the posters who believe there is another man. What gets me about your post-and I'm not trying to be mean-is that you admit that you didn't help and that you neglected her, but its her fault for not telling you. Why should she have to? Why should she only get help and respect when she asks for it? You are not a child and you shouldn't have to be told to pick up your things, or do the dishes, or whatever it is that needed to be done. Clearly there was miscommunication on both sides, but do NOT blame her because you were being inconsiderate.
> Is she willing to try MC?


If she never communicated her needs it was HER that was being inconsiderate. We are men...not mind readers. Not helping out enough around the house is not a reason for divorce.


----------



## Jayb

Wow, so many similar stories. My WAW is done with me and wants to D for no one else, only her independence.

It's hard to believe and accept and so frustrating that she won't give another chance at saving our 12 year marriage.

She detached 2-3 years ago, and I was notified 9 months ago. Clearly out of the blue. After 3 months of separation, I filed for D (in heat of moment). That cranked up the adversarial relationship. Then, 3 months after that, I said let's take some time to see if we could work on things through MC--1 final shot.

Unfortunately, after the 3rd session, my W remains hopeless for our M, detached, and unmotivated to work for us.

All the while being friends, spending family time together on the weekends, etc.

I'm 3 weeks into the new path for ME. Lost 20 lbs (no appetite), started back at church, exercising, reading, praying, etc.

I pray for our M to be restored, and will remain hopeful, but I'm not chasing her right now. Rather, I'm investing in me and positive outcomes. Maybe she'll see lasting change in me, maybe not.

We have several hurdles to face even before R. She's afraid of things reverting back to the miserable times and refuses to take that chance. That's understandable. 

I wouldn't wish this situation on my enemy. So painful.


----------



## john1024

Jayb, I'm right there with you.

Maybe I'm starting to slide into the next stage of grief, b/c I'm starting to feel some anger. That doesn't mean I'm not terribly sorry for what I've put her through, but I'm mad that she never told me (even if she shouldn't have had to) and that she has quit on us and our family. I know she thinks we can work together such that the kids will be ok, and they may be ok, but they will always have this in their lives if we don't fix it.

She says she is willing to learn to communicate better, but she clearly doesn't want to spend any more time with me then she has to.


----------



## deejov

John,
I'm sorry to hear of your pain, thanks for sharing and hopefully you will find the right path to get things back on track.

It's easy to feel frustrated and angry about how things went wrong without your knowledge, and understandable.

Another option... (to avoid the train wreck of resentment) is to "talk" yourself _out _of being angry about things you cannot change, and try to think that this is maybe a good thing.
She hasn't left yet, and you now have an opportunity to work on communication, yourself, etc. Sometimes this is the climatiic peak that saves a marriage. The big shake up in life. 

But you have to be open minded to see it, accept it, and move forward with it. Forgive her for not telling you, forgive yourself for what you didn't do (none of that can be changed).

Continue with the counselling, take it one day at a time, and hang in there. Best wishes,


----------



## Jayb

john1024 said:


> Jayb, I'm right there with you.
> 
> Maybe I'm starting to slide into the next stage of grief, b/c I'm starting to feel some anger. That doesn't mean I'm not terribly sorry for what I've put her through, but I'm mad that she never told me (even if she shouldn't have had to) and that she has quit on us and our family. I know she thinks we can work together such that the kids will be ok, and they may be ok, but they will always have this in their lives if we don't fix it.
> 
> She says she is willing to learn to communicate better, but she clearly doesn't want to spend any more time with me then she has to.


I've been told I can use my anger as a way to detach. Anger can be purposefully used.

I understand about the children. I'm a product of a bitter divorce. My W's parents are still married. I took for granted to nurture my closest someone and now, my life's biggest let downs/fears is almost about to happen. I understand the effects of D. However, because my wife and I are determined to stay friendly and cooperative, she overlooks the real and repeated effects this has on the children. That's sad and it angers me too.


----------



## cdavis

John,

I'm in same situation as I mentioned earlier. The first chapter of the Divorce Busting book (which including the "walk away wife" syndrome) made a lot of since to me, I ordered the book. So far my best idea on how to approach is to improve yourself as much as possible (working out, dress and appearance) and try to give her space and not be needy. I'm not not really seeing results yet. My wife refuses counseling. Hope you update us, I could use some ideas.


----------



## LookingForTheSun

Beowulf - that is a great post...something that should be shared with many - those who just give up on marriage, those who stray...wow. Most people never think about what happens beyond tomorrow.


----------



## Dollystanford

LookingForTheSun said:


> Beowulf - that is a great post...something that should be shared with many - those who just give up on marriage, those who stray...wow. Most people never think about what happens beyond tomorrow.


this is what worries me about my situation - H told me two weeks ago but apparently he has been feeling like John's wife for a few years. Never communicated it or told me what was wrong and is now awaiting his share of the equity so he can move out - no discussion about working it out, reconciliation - just wants to throw it away. I've loved him and supported him through everything and I'm not sure he realises what he's giving up - or maybe it's not enough? But then my question is, what will be enough?


----------



## cdavis

Dollystanford said:


> this is what worries me about my situation - H told me two weeks ago but apparently he has been feeling like John's wife for a few years. Never communicated it or told me what was wrong and is now awaiting his share of the equity so he can move out - no discussion about working it out, reconciliation - just wants to throw it away. I've loved him and supported him through everything and I'm not sure he realises what he's giving up - or maybe it's not enough? But then my question is, what will be enough?


I'm in same situation also... and if you look at all the historical threads they usually never come around.


----------



## Dollystanford

I don't think he will and actually in the long run it will probably be for the best - I just think 13 years is worth at least one attempt at working it out but clearly he doesn't feel the same


----------



## LookingForTheSun

I don't believe (based on my own experience) that someone just wakes up one day and says they want a divorce because they have not been happy for the last few years. I think that another person is involved (affair). When my husband first told me he wanted a divorce and that he has not been happy for awhile, I asked if there was someone else. He said no, and I told him he was lying and that no one turned off their feelings just like that. If anyone had a right to complain or be unhappy it was me...he had cheated before, was a bear to live with at times, worked long hours (military), was lazy around the house, spent too much money - and those were all things that I pointed out to him. Frustrated, yes, but we were not unhappy for years. I asked him repeatedly before we had our 2 children if that is what he wanted and he said yes. I did not push. Recently, we had issues, but we just bought a house, new car, new furniture...nothing that you do right before you plan to divorce. He said that he did not want to live another 15 years unhappy (yep - pretty darn cruel), although now he wished he could take that back and admits that he has not been unhappy for 15 years. It was the affair - has been so cruel in his words and his actions....he has been messed up....trying to justify it in his mind. After being on this board for the last few months, I see that affairs are all too common. Once a person is in one, they do things that you never thought imaginable. They hurt those they are supposed to love and protect the most. They self destruct and take down everyone around them if allowed. Don't allow yourself to be taken down. It's OK to feel sad, mad, messed up...one day things start to become clearer and you find a way to take care of you. I am just getting there, but it does happen. Hopefully if there is still love and hope on both parts, the marriage can be salvaged and turned around...just not without a lot of heartache and hard work.


----------



## LookingForTheSun

CDavis and Dolly - my threads are long - I tend to get it all out in my posts, but maybe you can see some similarities...it has been a roller coaster for sure. I am still hopefull....time will tell. The words are all there, they just need to be followed through on. If my husband is true to his word this time, wow, what a great ending to such a nightmare....I want a happy ending for us and our family. I have done everything I can to stick it out until he came around. One day at a time. Hugs to you both!


----------



## caligal

Hi John, 
I haven't written my story yet--just reading through relevant threads. Your story is exactly, EXACTLY like mine though. 

I have to say, though I know you will be saddened by this, that your wife is having an affair. Having an affair is not the cause of your marital breakdown, but the result of years of neglect and miscommunication. It is ugly, shameful and humiliating--and divulging this information to you would no-doubt destroy any respect you may still hold for her and regardless of the final outcome, she still holds your opinion in high regards. 

Be patient, more attentive and work your ass off to get her back. Trust me, losing the love of your life sucks! I want so badly to get "those feelings" back with my husband. I wish he was as willing to "work" on things as you. 

Good luck!


----------



## Middkid91

Just wanted to let you know how much I feel for you. It is incredible to me that given the complexities of the human psyche and the differences in all of our lives, how often the "walk away wife" syndrome plays out as if from a script. The fact that they all use the same language, the same phrases and act in the same way is almost spooky. I would also agree with many of the posters that you should look into the OM. No matter what she says, there is almost a 100% chance that someone is occupying an important place in her heart/mind during this period. She may have been unhappy for two years (that's what my wife says), but after enough digging I found that catalyst for what appeared to be a sudden change: her "friend" and "emotional support." And while she denied anything else, when I finally found her love letter it was obvious that this relationship of her was anything but platonic.

I wish I could offer you words of encouragement but I am a wreck myself. I only know that while you may not have been the perfect husband, who is. And to the woman posting about the fact that it wasn't your wife's responsibility to tell you her needs? Well, since when is it a husband (or wife's) responsibility to read his/her spouses mind? Marriage is supposed to be about communication and honesty. I thought that's what we had but when one spouse hides disappointment, unhappiness, resentment or anything else from the other spouse, and if it goes unchecked for long enough, divorce seems all but inevitable. i am so sorry for you


----------



## john1024

So, here is the latest. W is treating me worse than ever. Last week, when she told me, there was some sympathy. This week, it seems to have turned to outright resentment. In a way, anger is better than apathy, I guess, but it is making me mad. 

I have asked her to talk several times and she has blown me off. I've even offered to do things for her to make the time (like go to the grocery store), and she has said no. And she stopped wearing her wedding ring. These don't seem to be the actions of someone who will "always love" me or who "doesn't hate" me or who wants to always be "friends" with me or who wants to learn to communicate better for our kids.

I know it has only been a week and I have put a lot of pressure on her that she didn't have to deal with when she kept all of this to herself. But it is making me mad. My plan is to tell her how I feel about all of this and tell her that I am not going to stop trying to be a great husband, father, person, etc. and if she can't see and accept that, then she is going to have to cut the chord on a good man and know that it was her that made the decision to walk away from our family.


----------



## john1024

Talked this morning. Think we are done. She has made up her mind. Doesn't want to try. Doesn't want to even try to be friends until we are separated, so as not to encourage me that things might work out. She doesn't want to talk or hang out together because that is not "where this is going." Told her she is turning her back on our family. She disagrees; says this is for the best for the children; that things have not been good for a while and they will survive. Told her I was going to keep trying to be a better husband/father/person and she said that was good for me, but not going to do anything in terms of us. I worry that this is going to turn ugly and I really don't want that.


----------



## Beowulf

john1024 said:


> I know that seems like a reasonable explanation, and that it is hard for me to see it being right in the middle of this, but I really do believe her. She has been hurt by cheating before; hates it; detests it; a real dealbreaker for her. I would have said the same thing until this happened. I don't know if I really could do this, but I told her that I could get over the fact if she had had or was having an affair. She said that was ridiculous. I even asked her if maybe there was an emotional affair going on -- someone who treated her better than me and would jump at the chance for more. She said no. And, again, she said all of this would be much easier if there was something like an affair. Why wouldn't she just tell the truth to get it through my thick skull if that were the case?


I just read your post from today and reread your thread. I'm going to agree with some others here. I think there is someone else. She wouldn't go from where you were last week to where you are this week if someone else weren't in the picture.

And just because she hates infidelity don't think she won't cheat. If you go to the CWI section you can read many stories about how someone was cheated on and even though they knew the pain and anguish it caused they did the same thing to someone else. In fact, sometimes it makes it easier because they figure if they survived then so will you.


----------



## john1024

More convinced than ever that it is not an affair. I could go into details, but it probably doesn't matter. She has made up her mind. I just can't believe this is real. Don't know what to do with myself anymore. This type of trauma is what you would normally go to your spouse for a shoulder to cry on, and now I can't do that. Feel very alone, even when surrounded by her and the kids. Would not wish this on anyone.


----------



## Lon

john1024 said:


> More convinced than ever that it is not an affair. I could go into details, but *it probably doesn't matter*. She has made up her mind. I just can't believe this is real. Don't know what to do with myself anymore. This type of trauma is what you would normally go to your spouse for a shoulder to cry on, and now I can't do that. Feel very alone, even when surrounded by her and the kids. Would not wish this on anyone.


My journey through separation and divorce started that way too, she was just done. I will tell it will matter if you find out indeed that she has been making these decisions in the shroud of a fog, you will blame yourself and feel like you did too little too late, Just know that either way, you are not the cause you are not the one putting on pressure on her to leave that is all on her side of the equation. So if she is done let her go, but for your own sake, before you do, do everything you can to make sure her feelings are sincere because if you find out its for another man you will sure wish you had spent a whole lot more effort investigating at this point in your marital breakdown, because it DOES matter a whole lot.


----------



## john1024

Lon said:


> My journey through separation and divorce started that way too, she was just done. I will tell it will matter if you find out indeed that she has been making these decisions in the shroud of a fog, you will blame yourself and feel like you did too little too late, Just know that either way, you are not the cause you are not the one putting on pressure on her to leave that is all on her side of the equation. So if she is done let her go, but for your own sake, before you do, do everything you can to make sure her feelings are sincere because if you find out its for another man you will sure wish you had spent a whole lot more effort investigating at this point in your marital breakdown, because it DOES matter a whole lot.


Thanks Lon. Suffice it to say that I have done some investigating, but would rather not go into details here. I believe her. I did enough to push her away. Something else comes out every time we talk. Pretty crappy stuff -- in large part misunderstood by her or an escalation of some prior miscommunication -- but crappy nonetheless. She isn't without fault either. What a tragedy that we hurt one another like this when we both just wanted to love and be loved.


----------



## Lon

I understand. I am just warning you because if you know what you did wrong, then that is the problem, however if there is an affair she is following "the script" to a tee - when they cheat they are very convincing at blame shifting, lying, and trying to gas-light you into thinking that either you are the problem (without even having to be evil looking enough to come out and just tell you) or that they have just "grown apart".

And checking up using VARs, checking sms logs, phone records, hiring a PI, is all so easy - yes it is an invasion into her privacy, but she is about to blow up your life and leave you broken hearted, you have nothing to lose as long as you don't go psycho and threaten her or anything.

You said you are devastated because this is all based on miscommunication and misunderstanding, and you seem to acknowledge that these are problems that can be worked through. And I agree, they are. All loyal spouses would think exactly the same, I mean look at what you DO have together, the history you have, what you have built - it may not be perfect but it is yours, who in their right mind would throw that away in favor of the unknown, a foray into the world as a separated middle aged mother with half the resources at her disposal?

But I will digress, because you say you have investigated, so I assume you have done all the spy stuff already. I feel bad, I really am sorry you are here, I know it is a killer trying to understand the rejection without clear answers.


----------



## abetterme

John go to divorce remedy and do a 180


----------



## Jayb

john1024 said:


> Talked this morning. Think we are done. She has made up her mind. Doesn't want to try. Doesn't want to even try to be friends until we are separated, so as not to encourage me that things might work out. She doesn't want to talk or hang out together because that is not "where this is going." Told her she is turning her back on our family. She disagrees; says this is for the best for the children; that things have not been good for a while and they will survive. Told her I was going to keep trying to be a better husband/father/person and she said that was good for me, but not going to do anything in terms of us. I worry that this is going to turn ugly and I really don't want that.


Ditto, except, mine wants to be friends, and likes spending time around me and the children. She just doesn't want to hurt me anymore than she has--she hates to see me so upset because it stirs her guilt regret to the point where she wants to run faster the other way. So, maybe my W is farther along in the process. 

When you hear her say these things, doesn't it show you that she has changed? That, she has undergone a process, not included you, to bluntly tell you these things? Because, I can see it in my wife.

It's so unfair not to have been told anything for years, and then, out of the blue, be told that there will be no other chance. Just, "you deserve better," or "I hope you find someone who can truly make you happy," or "I am ready to be alone the rest of my life," or "I don't see how you could ever forgive me."


----------



## Jayb

john1024 said:


> More convinced than ever that it is not an affair. I could go into details, but it probably doesn't matter. She has made up her mind. I just can't believe this is real. Don't know what to do with myself anymore. *This type of trauma is what you would normally go to your spouse for a shoulder to cry on, and now I can't do that. Feel very alone, even when surrounded by her and the kids. Would not wish this on anyone*.


This is exactly me. Those years, my wife went through the separation detachment, we were married, still living in the house together, and she had other friends to lean on.

Now, I'm slapped with it, my 1st instinct is ti lean on my best friend, my wife. And, due to me isolating myself over the years, my only other friends are my 2 children. So, wow, I'm alone going through this pain. Gee, thanks.


----------



## Jayb

john1024 said:


> Thanks Lon. Suffice it to say that I have done some investigating, but would rather not go into details here. I believe her. I did enough to push her away. Something else comes out every time we talk. Pretty crappy stuff -- in large part misunderstood by her or an escalation of some prior miscommunication -- but crappy nonetheless. She isn't without fault either. *What a tragedy that we hurt one another like this when we both just wanted to love and be loved*.


If only we had said something to each other. Stopped it sooner. My W said she tried. She never said anything to me, except when she was convinced we were done. Too late.


----------



## Jayb

Lon said:


> I understand. I am just warning you because if you know what you did wrong, then that is the problem, however if there is an affair she is following "the script" to a tee - when they cheat they are very convincing at blame shifting, lying, and trying to gas-light you into thinking that either you are the problem (without even having to be evil looking enough to come out and just tell you) or that they have just "grown apart".
> 
> And checking up using VARs, checking sms logs, phone records, hiring a PI, is all so easy - yes it is an invasion into her privacy, but she is about to blow up your life and leave you broken hearted, you have nothing to lose as long as you don't go psycho and threaten her or anything.
> 
> You said you are devastated because this is all based on miscommunication and misunderstanding, and you seem to acknowledge that these are problems that can be worked through. And I agree, they are. All loyal spouses would think exactly the same, I mean look at what you DO have together, the history you have, what you have built - it may not be perfect but it is yours, *who in their right mind would throw that away in favor of the unknown, a foray into the world as a separated middle aged mother with half the resources at her disposal?*But I will digress, because you say you have investigated, so I assume you have done all the spy stuff already. I feel bad, I really am sorry you are here, I know it is a killer trying to understand the rejection without clear answers.



That's what is baffling. I investigated too. No OM. On nights without the children, just her and her girlfriend going to movies and dinner. 

She has doubts and is afraid of any R, due to her fear that things will return to the rut when she was in her deepest misery and she refuses to go back to.


----------



## cdavis

John,

My issues with my wife are happening exactly like yours at the same time. I got the "its not my fault, you have been a good husband, etc" stuff to start with with, now there i a low level of anger it looks like. She has let on that I did pull my weight with kids, etc (I do more than most dads). I've put more pressure on her over the last week but I'm going to back off now. Mine is convinced the kids will be better off (there is no way that will true). Mine will probably turn ugly really quick as we fight over kids and money in separation. I'm considering suggesting we be roommates to buy time.

Chris


----------



## Dollystanford

Jayb said:


> It's so unfair not to have been told anything for years, and then, out of the blue, be told that there will be no other chance. Just, "you deserve better," or "I hope you find someone who can truly make you happy," or "I am ready to be alone the rest of my life," or "I don't see how you could ever forgive me."


this is what is starting to infuriate me - he's pretending this is all about me and my happiness when it's actually all about HIM. I said that the one thing that would have made me happy is the thought that he might have found enough in our 13 years together to at least try once. But no.

and to be honest, I probably never would forgive him now


----------



## Lon

cdavis, JayB, John, the thing is they may be telling you things like "you have been a good husband" etc, and you have been. It is what she isn't telling you that really matters to her - it is an attraction issue: being a good father, attentive father, dutiful partner isn't what gets her wet (sorry if that sounds vulgar, but I find it much more offensive when a spouse walks away from someone that hasn't done anything wrong other than not being able to read her mind or pick up on language that isn't even in our vocabulary).

So while your "beta" qualities may be a contributing factor, (they certainly are preventing her from wanting to have coitus with you)it is HER IMMATURITY, LACK OF COMMITTMENT AND WEAK-MINDEDNESS that has made her decide to start fresh with someone new and different to her (which is the sole reason one person chooses to divorce, even if they have never even adulterated).

Could you have done it differently, change yourself to make yourself more attractive to you, yes... would it change who she is from a person willing to just up and leave based purely on her emotions into someone willing to stick it through: no not at all, SHE JUST ISN'T A LOYAL WOMAN, she already got what she needed from you, biologically speaking, now she is looking to repeat the cycle.


----------



## snick369

John, I have to say reading this actually scared me for a minute because your post could have been written by my husband, as we are in the exact same situation right now. If it weren't for the proper grammar & spelling, I'd still swear it was him LOL.

First of all, let me agree with some of the other people here - her feelings changing do NOT necessarily mean she is cheating. I can assure you of that. Sure, sometimes things blow up & go crazy, but sometimes relationships just fizzle out & die quietly.

I have been questioning my marriage for the last several years. It was only after I started seeing an individual therapist that I started discussing these things with my husband. Neither of us are "talkers" - we never communicated one way or the other. You can blame this on a lot of things, but basically it's just the way both of us were brought up...you don't talk about feelings, bad times, etc. etc. It's not good, but it's the way it is. And after being like that for so many years, it's hard to truly talk about how you feel, especially when you know it's going to hurt the other person.

So last year, I started telling him that I thought things were bad, tried to let him see what was going on, asked him to go to counseling. But it wasn't until the beginning of this year when I told him NO, SERIOUSLY, I WANT TO SEPARATE that he finally got it into his head how serious the situation was.

We are going to counseling now, but I really don't see myself falling back "in love" with him. I feel like it's just been too long going through the motions & pretending everything was OK and now I don't see how they are supposed to come back just because he desperately doesn't want me to leave. I feel like the counseling & the money discussions & the "well maybe I can live here or you could live there..._later_" conversations are just stalling tactics & I'm starting to get resentful of everyone trying to change my mind about things.

I am in the same frame of thought as your wife, where I felt ignored & neglected & the love just died away over time. And I have the same problem with my husband blaming himself for all of this - I have tried to reassure him that, sure, it was partly his fault for being like that, but it was also my fault for not communicating what I needed out of the relationship (thus why I started going to therapy on my own). Blame doesn't seem to help at all either way.

Unfortunately, I don't have any big words of wisdom or special insight for you, as someone from the other side of this issue. I can't speak for your wife, but for me all I can say is it SUCKS royally on this end of it, too. I feel guilty for not reciprocating his feelings, horrible that he is trying so hard to "fix" things now & I feel it's too late, like I've failed our marriage of 17 years, worried about this is going to put our 2 kids through, sick about the expense it's going to incur to have 2 sets of living expenses, selfish for trying to put myself first. 

But I know if I don't do anything at all, it puts me in the exact position I've been for years - wanting very much to WANT to be in this relationship, but knowing that I'm not. I only wish I would have "ripped the band-aid off" quicker & sooner because it's horrible & painful.

Good luck. Thank goodness for places to go for support like this.


----------



## Jayb

Lon said:


> cdavis, JayB, John, the thing is they may be telling you things like "you have been a good husband" etc, and you have been. It is what she isn't telling you that really matters to her - it is an attraction issue: being a good father, attentive father, dutiful partner isn't what gets her wet (sorry if that sounds vulgar, but I find it much more offensive when a spouse walks away from someone that hasn't done anything wrong other than not being able to read her mind or pick up on language that isn't even in our vocabulary).
> 
> So while your "beta" qualities may be a contributing factor, (they certainly are preventing her from wanting to have coitus with you)it is HER IMMATURITY, LACK OF COMMITTMENT AND WEAK-MINDEDNESS that has made her decide to start fresh with someone new and different to her (which is the sole reason one person chooses to divorce, even if they have never even adulterated).
> 
> Could you have done it differently, change yourself to make yourself more attractive to you, yes... would it change who she is from a person willing to just up and leave based purely on her emotions into someone willing to stick it through: no not at all, SHE JUST ISN'T A LOYAL WOMAN, she already got what she needed from you, biologically speaking, now she is looking to repeat the cycle.


I get some of this. I can vouch for my W getting all caught up in the Twilight series. Her fantasies inspired her to doubt our M, reinforce her misery, etc. And rather than express that to me then, she went through the process.

Although I can say on here that I was ideal, I'd be lying. We had severe intimacy issues that lead to her starving. In addition, I took her for granted. And, everyday life took over.

I'm on a quest to show her I appreciate the little things. I can be attentive to her needs. I can communicate and take initiative.

I hope this creates a spark.


----------



## cdavis

Lon said:


> cdavis, JayB, John, the thing is they may be telling you things like "you have been a good husband" etc, and you have been. It is what she isn't telling you that really matters to her - it is an attraction issue:


I'm sure mine is not, not at least physically. At 34yrs old I'm more fit and 10-15 lbs lighter than after college when we got married, my wife is still pretty but the balance is certainly reversed. Of course there is a lot more to attraction that just physical.


----------



## cdavis

snick369 said:


> John, I have to say reading this actually scared me for a minute because your post could have been written by my husband, as we are in the exact same situation right now. If it weren't for the proper grammar & spelling, I'd still swear it was him LOL.
> 
> First of all, let me agree with some of the other people here - her feelings changing do NOT necessarily mean she is cheating. I can assure you of that. Sure, sometimes things blow up & go crazy, but sometimes relationships just fizzle out & die quietly.
> 
> I have been questioning my marriage for the last several years. It was only after I started seeing an individual therapist that I started discussing these things with my husband. Neither of us are "talkers" - we never communicated one way or the other. You can blame this on a lot of things, but basically it's just the way both of us were brought up...you don't talk about feelings, bad times, etc. etc. It's not good, but it's the way it is. And after being like that for so many years, it's hard to truly talk about how you feel, especially when you know it's going to hurt the other person.
> 
> So last year, I started telling him that I thought things were bad, tried to let him see what was going on, asked him to go to counseling. But it wasn't until the beginning of this year when I told him NO, SERIOUSLY, I WANT TO SEPARATE that he finally got it into his head how serious the situation was.
> 
> We are going to counseling now, but I really don't see myself falling back "in love" with him. I feel like it's just been too long going through the motions & pretending everything was OK and now I don't see how they are supposed to come back just because he desperately doesn't want me to leave. I feel like the counseling & the money discussions & the "well maybe I can live here or you could live there..._later_" conversations are just stalling tactics & I'm starting to get resentful of everyone trying to change my mind about things.
> 
> I am in the same frame of thought as your wife, where I felt ignored & neglected & the love just died away over time. And I have the same problem with my husband blaming himself for all of this - I have tried to reassure him that, sure, it was partly his fault for being like that, but it was also my fault for not communicating what I needed out of the relationship (thus why I started going to therapy on my own). Blame doesn't seem to help at all either way.
> 
> Unfortunately, I don't have any big words of wisdom or special insight for you, as someone from the other side of this issue. I can't speak for your wife, but for me all I can say is it SUCKS royally on this end of it, too. I feel guilty for not reciprocating his feelings, horrible that he is trying so hard to "fix" things now & I feel it's too late, like I've failed our marriage of 17 years, worried about this is going to put our 2 kids through, sick about the expense it's going to incur to have 2 sets of living expenses, selfish for trying to put myself first.
> 
> But I know if I don't do anything at all, it puts me in the exact position I've been for years - wanting very much to WANT to be in this relationship, but knowing that I'm not. I only wish I would have "ripped the band-aid off" quicker & sooner because it's horrible & painful.
> 
> Good luck. Thank goodness for places to go for support like this.


Thanks for posting because it nice to see "the other side". If you have a willing husband and a family together to you see any way you would be willing to give it another chance? I can't get over unwillingness to try.


----------



## Jayb

snick369 said:


> John, I have to say reading this actually scared me for a minute because your post could have been written by my husband, as we are in the exact same situation right now. If it weren't for the proper grammar & spelling, I'd still swear it was him LOL.
> 
> First of all, let me agree with some of the other people here - her feelings changing do NOT necessarily mean she is cheating. I can assure you of that. Sure, sometimes things blow up & go crazy, but sometimes relationships just fizzle out & die quietly.
> 
> *I have been questioning my marriage for the last several years. *It was only after I started seeing an individual therapist that I started discussing these things with my husband. Neither of us are "talkers" - we never communicated one way or the other. You can blame this on a lot of things, but basically it's just the way both of us were brought up...you don't talk about feelings, bad times, etc. etc. It's not good, but it's the way it is. And after being like that for so many years, it's hard to truly talk about how you feel, especially when you know it's going to hurt the other person.
> 
> So last year, I started telling him that I thought things were bad, tried to let him see what was going on, asked him to go to counseling. *But it wasn't until the beginning of this year when I told him NO, SERIOUSLY, I WANT TO SEPARATE that he finally got it into his head how serious the situation was.*We are going to counseling now, *but I really don't see myself falling back "in love" with him. I feel like it's just been too long going through the motions & pretending everything was OK and now I don't see how they are supposed to come back just because he desperately doesn't want me to leave. I feel like the counseling & the money discussions & the "well maybe I can live here or you could live there...later" conversations are just stalling tactics & I'm starting to get resentful of everyone trying to change my mind about things.**I am in the same frame of thought as your wife, where I felt ignored & neglected & the love just died away over time. And I have the same problem with my husband blaming himself for all of this - I have tried to reassure him that, sure, it was partly his fault for being like that, but it was also my fault for not communicating what I needed out of the relationship (thus why I started going to therapy on my own). Blame doesn't seem to help at all either way.*Unfortunately, I don't have any big words of wisdom or special insight for you, as someone from the other side of this issue. I can't speak for your wife, but for me all I can say is it SUCKS royally on this end of it, too. * I feel guilty for not reciprocating his feelings, horrible that he is trying so hard to "fix" things now & I feel it's too late, like I've failed our marriage of 17 years, worried about this is going to put our 2 kids through, sick about the expense it's going to incur to have 2 sets of living expenses, selfish for trying to put myself first. *
> 
> *But I know if I don't do anything at all, it puts me in the exact position I've been for years - wanting very much to WANT to be in this relationship, but knowing that I'm not. I only wish I would have "ripped the band-aid off" quicker & sooner because it's horrible & painful.*Good luck. Thank goodness for places to go for support like this.


Wow, the bolded areas are my W.

Almost exactly.

It's not fair. For me/us/our children

I can change. She will see.

What could your husband do to provide any spark in your thinking? Divorcing you and moving onto a next relationship? You, moving onto your next relationships?
Would just giving you more time change your decision?


----------



## Jayb

cdavis said:


> Thanks for posting because it nice to see "the other side". If you have a willing husband and a family together to you see any way you would be willing to give it another chance? I can't get over unwillingness to try.


Here too. Because, it's almost like us and the children are willing to fight for the other spouse to remain and be willing to be loved again, forgiven, appreciated, etc.

Don't give up hope.


----------



## snick369

Lon said:


> cdavis, JayB, John, the thing is they may be telling you things like "you have been a good husband" etc, and you have been. It is what she isn't telling you that really matters to her - it is an attraction issue: being a good father, attentive father, dutiful partner isn't what gets her wet (sorry if that sounds vulgar, but I find it much more offensive when a spouse walks away from someone that hasn't done anything wrong other than not being able to read her mind or pick up on language that isn't even in our vocabulary).
> 
> So while your "beta" qualities may be a contributing factor, (they certainly are preventing her from wanting to have coitus with you)it is HER IMMATURITY, LACK OF COMMITTMENT AND WEAK-MINDEDNESS that has made her decide to start fresh with someone new and different to her (which is the sole reason one person chooses to divorce, even if they have never even adulterated).
> 
> Could you have done it differently, change yourself to make yourself more attractive to you, yes... would it change who she is from a person willing to just up and leave based purely on her emotions into someone willing to stick it through: no not at all, SHE JUST ISN'T A LOYAL WOMAN, she already got what she needed from you, biologically speaking, now she is looking to repeat the cycle.


I am in an extremely similar same situation to John's (see post above).

Lon, as the woman on the other side of this situation, I feel your comments are a bit over the line. Sure, in some respects they are "correct," but to call someone IMMATURE, WEAK-MINDED and DISLOYAL because their feelings have changed is quite harsh. Granted, we are trying to console the man in this situation, so perhaps it's what he might want to hear, but it's not very fair to the other party.

Yes, the attraction factor is gone in my marriage. That came after years of feeling lonely, alone and depressed about being in it. It took this long for me to tell my husband what I'm feeling BECAUSE I didn't want to "just up and leave." But to say you shouldn't base that decision "purely on emotion"...?? Umm, emotion is all there is in a relationship, kind sir. It's what starts it, what keeps it together and eventually can possibly pull it apart.

I have held on this long because of the kids, the finances, the chance somehow I (or my husband) would change & make me feel more attracted to him. Now the only decision left is an emotional one. So I'm just supposed to stay with him forever, even though I don't feel that way towards him anymore? It's not like I WANT to give up on a relationship of 20 years, but I'm supposed to hang onto it anyway, just because it's been that long? How is that fair to him, to be with someone who can't reciprocate those feelings?

Sorry for being an "emotional" woman. Lord forbid I have feelings & needs & not only want them to be met, but to be in a relationship where I can have the desire to fulfill those things for the other person. But you're saying I should just "stick it through" because...I have no idea what your justification is for that...because that's what you're "supposed to do"? It would be better if I just had an affair & then "proved" that I really didn't want to be in this relationship anymore? I sure don't see how that would help things, either. As far as your thinking goes, I've "got what I wanted & I'm ready to repeat the cycle." To be polite, let's just say this is an unjust assumption.

I have asked my husband for a separation, not because I am weak and immature...but because I feel I have been weak & immature up to this point to NOT express my dissatisfaction with the situation & feel it is pointless to keep pretending there is nothing wrong. I do hope that the time apart will make me feel what I have been missing with him...but right now, it is very early in this process for me, so I don't have a lot of hope for that. Things could change either way, I can't predict the future. I certainly didn't predict I'd be in this situation after being married for 17 years. But I also don't want to give him false hope right now, when I can't return those feelings. I really feel we need to be apart to either see what we're missing or decide it's truly over.

Sure, I needed to communicate better as to what I needed...I have admitted that to him. That doesn't change the fact that I have felt like this for several years & now I'm supposed to do a 180 & say hey, everything's great now that he finally is aware of what I'm trying to tell him?

None of this easy for anyone on any side. I'm sorry if I was overly defensive in my reply to you, but your comments hit me as very judgmental and biased to one side of the situation. There are always two sides of the story and you can never know fully what goes on in someone else's relationship. I'm thankful for places like this to discuss these things.


----------



## snick369

Jayb said:


> Wow, the bolded areas are my W.
> 
> Almost exactly.
> 
> It's not fair. For me/us/our children
> 
> I can change. She will see.
> 
> What could your husband do to provide any spark in your thinking? Divorcing you and moving onto a next relationship? You, moving onto your next relationships?
> Would just giving you more time change your decision?


I just don't know what he could do to change my mind. Right now, here today, I don't think it's going to change. I am trying to stay open-minded about it & hope it could change, but I think the only way to really know for sure is to separate.

You are also like my husband, saying "I can change. She will see." I feel a lot of guilt when he says things like that to me. It's not like I wanted or planned to "fall out of love." I understand that he wants to fix things, but I'm afraid that it's past that point. I feel bad saying that to him, but I don't want to keep giving him false hope that everything's going to be OK. It also makes me feel like there's a deadline like, if I'm not back in love with you by May, then I'm right and you're wrong. I know that's completely irrational, but it's just a pressure added to the pain of everything else.

I do think time is the only thing that's going to work. I don't feel that time should be spent living together, pretending it's all going to come out fine. He's afraid that I will move out & be happier & find someone else. I've had to tell him that is a real possibility. It TOTALLY SUCKS. I don't want to hurt his feelings. But ignoring my own feelings is making me increasingly depressed & resentful & that can't be good for anyone involved.

I wish I had an answer that makes everyone happy. But since we're both in different places with the relationship, there's going to be someone that's unhappy. Just understand that if your wife might be a lot like me - absolutely nothing about this makes her HAPPY, but she's also not happy way things are, so they have to change. Can the change be done while you're still together? I don't know...how could you change things deep down, when nothing is changing on the surface? The alternative is just staying together & being unhappy until eventually you're also unhappy & then things get REALLY ugly.


----------



## cdavis

snick369 said:


> I just don't know what he could do to change my mind. Right now, here today, I don't think it's going to change. I am trying to stay open-minded about it & hope it could change, but I think the only way to really know for sure is to separate.
> 
> You are also like my husband, saying "I can change. She will see." I feel a lot of guilt when he says things like that to me. It's not like I wanted or planned to "fall out of love." I understand that he wants to fix things, but I'm afraid that it's past that point. I feel bad saying that to him, but I don't want to keep giving him false hope that everything's going to be OK. It also makes me feel like there's a deadline like, if I'm not back in love with you by May, then I'm right and you're wrong. I know that's completely irrational, but it's just a pressure added to the pain of everything else.
> 
> I do think time is the only thing that's going to work. I don't feel that time should be spent living together, pretending it's all going to come out fine. He's afraid that I will move out & be happier & find someone else. I've had to tell him that is a real possibility. It TOTALLY SUCKS. I don't want to hurt his feelings. But ignoring my own feelings is making me increasingly depressed & resentful & that can't be good for anyone involved.
> 
> I wish I had an answer that makes everyone happy. But since we're both in different places with the relationship, there's going to be someone that's unhappy. Just understand that if your wife might be a lot like me - absolutely nothing about this makes her HAPPY, but she's also not happy way things are, so they have to change. Can the change be done while you're still together? I don't know...how could you change things deep down, when nothing is changing on the surface? The alternative is just staying together & being unhappy until eventually you're also unhappy & then things get REALLY ugly.


You sound "exactly" like my wife! I've heard a lot of the same things. I think the problem in my situation is I don't feel like just moving out separably will fix things, because to do that there will be a major fight over custody and money... that would be bad enough to never be able to work things out.


----------



## Jayb

snick369 said:


> I just don't know what he could do to change my mind. Right now, here today, I don't think it's going to change. I am trying to stay open-minded about it & hope it could change, but I think the only way to really know for sure is to separate.
> 
> You are also like my husband, saying "I can change. She will see." I feel a lot of guilt when he says things like that to me. It's not like I wanted or planned to "fall out of love." I understand that he wants to fix things, but I'm afraid that it's past that point. I feel bad saying that to him, but I don't want to keep giving him false hope that everything's going to be OK. It also makes me feel like there's a deadline like, if I'm not back in love with you by May, then I'm right and you're wrong. I know that's completely irrational, but it's just a pressure added to the pain of everything else.
> 
> I do think time is the only thing that's going to work. I don't feel that time should be spent living together, pretending it's all going to come out fine. He's afraid that I will move out & be happier & find someone else. I've had to tell him that is a real possibility. It TOTALLY SUCKS. I don't want to hurt his feelings. But ignoring my own feelings is making me increasingly depressed & resentful & that can't be good for anyone involved.
> 
> I wish I had an answer that makes everyone happy. But since we're both in different places with the relationship, there's going to be someone that's unhappy. Just understand that if your wife might be a lot like me - absolutely nothing about this makes her HAPPY, but she's also not happy way things are, so they have to change. Can the change be done while you're still together? I don't know...how could you change things deep down, when nothing is changing on the surface? The alternative is just staying together & being unhappy until eventually you're also unhappy & then things get REALLY ugly.




We've been separated for 9 months. D is on hold for 2 months and then we have to decide whether to proceed. I think my wife felt the pressure with deadlines, expiring leases, etc. OK fine. Let's just stay separated.

And, I don't talk about changing. I do it. However, I did mention that someone will benefit from my chnages. Either her (current W) or my next W. Already lost 20 pounds, people are complimenting me, noticing, etc. And I'm only on my 4th week. What I have been doing is going the extra mile in my actions on a consistent basis that may cause her to look at me in a different way. I've stop the pursual. She mentioned in MC being so tired of seeing me emotional because it stirs up her guilt. So, no emotions from me, except joyful, upbeat, etc.

One thing that I feared was the D date. I thought, well, that's it, final. However, I let go of that. Because, my W told me that our lives will go on after any D date. And, she, said there's always a possibility we could R after the D.

However, I understand her doubts. and, I understand that she may wish to proceed leaving even with doubts and regrets. Those may not be catalysts to change her mind.

What you and her (my W) may not want to hear, is that, if you are determined to leave, move on, then make that clear every conversation, and every exchange with us blockheads. Continually remind us that you want out, there is no hope, to move on. Because, despite being hurt, it may cause us to get over you and to heal faster than for us to analyze every action around you. In other words, be a *****. Convince us that we really are better off without you, and eventually, sooner, we will begin to believe it and act accordingly, and then turn hard as stone around you.


----------



## Jayb

snick369 said:


> I just don't know what he could do to change my mind. Right now, here today, I don't think it's going to change. *I am trying to stay open-minded about it & hope it could change, but I think the only way to really know for sure is to separate.*You are also like my husband, saying "I can change. She will see." I feel a lot of guilt when he says things like that to me. It's not like I wanted or planned to "fall out of love." I understand that he wants to fix things, but I'm afraid that it's past that point. I feel bad saying that to him, but I don't want to keep giving him false hope that everything's going to be OK. It also makes me feel like there's a deadline like, if I'm not back in love with you by May, then I'm right and you're wrong. I know that's completely irrational, but it's just a pressure added to the pain of everything else.
> 
> I do think time is the only thing that's going to work. I don't feel that time should be spent living together, pretending it's all going to come out fine. He's afraid that I will move out & be happier & find someone else. I've had to tell him that is a real possibility. It TOTALLY SUCKS. I don't want to hurt his feelings. But ignoring my own feelings is making me increasingly depressed & resentful & that can't be good for anyone involved.
> 
> I wish I had an answer that makes everyone happy. But since we're both in different places with the relationship, there's going to be someone that's unhappy. Just understand that if your wife might be a lot like me - absolutely nothing about this makes her HAPPY, but she's also not happy way things are, so they have to change. Can the change be done while you're still together? I don't know...how could you change things deep down, when nothing is changing on the surface? The alternative is just staying together & being unhappy until eventually you're also unhappy & then things get REALLY ugly.


Also, I'm beginning to think separation (over 6 months) meansno chance at R and moving back. Just file for D. Don't string it out any longer.


----------



## snick369

Jayb said:


> What you and her (my W) may not want to hear, is that, if you are determined to leave, move on, then make that clear every conversation, and every exchange with us blockheads. Continually remind us that you want out, there is no hope, to move on. Because, despite being hurt, it may cause us to get over you and to heal faster than for us to analyze every action around you. In other words, be a *****. Convince us that we really are better off without you, and eventually, sooner, we will begin to believe it and act accordingly, and then turn hard as stone around you.


You're absolutely right about that, Jay. I'm spending so much time trying not to hurt him, that I'm making it worse, I'm sure. I guess I'm in denial about that. There's NO way to make it any easier, no matter what.

The "us blockheads" part made me laugh, because in MC last week I had said that I'm trying to be more open about the communication but every time I bring something up (like looking for an apartment, etc.), he acts surprised & like this is the first time he's hearing it & I feel like I'm starting from the beginning all over again. It's horrible & painful to do it once, I certainly don't want to be doing it over & over like Groundhog Day. The MC reiterated the "Men from Mars/Women from Venus" thing saying that unfortunately guys don't think the same way as girls...with guys, it's like if nothing's said then everything's OK, so it IS sort of a surprise again to him every time. Plus, he doesn't want this to happen, so it's understandable that he doesn't want to deal with it.

It's so hard to just be an a****** though! Not that I'm sweet & perfect, I can certainly have my b**** moments, but even though I don't feel "wifely" towards him, I've been with him for a long time & I do care about how he feels & how he feels towards me. I don't want to hurt him. But as you said, it's better to just do it & get it over with than drag it out until we both hate each other irrevocably. 

I'm sorry for talking so much on your post, John LOL. I hope you can see that your wife is (probably) not just an evil, uncaring person. This is really, really, REALLY hard for us, too. Am I making a mistake? I don't know. Maybe. But I feel like separating is the best thing for my situation right now. Maybe I'll realize it was a horrible mistake. Maybe I won't & I'll move on & find someone else. I need to know, or I will regret more having done NOTHING than admitting a mistake or being happy that I changed.


----------



## Lon

snick369 said:


> I am in an extremely similar same situation to John's (see post above).
> 
> Lon, as the woman on the other side of this situation, I feel your comments are a bit over the line. Sure, in some respects they are "correct," but to call someone IMMATURE, WEAK-MINDED and DISLOYAL because their feelings have changed is quite harsh. Granted, we are trying to console the man in this situation, so perhaps it's what he might want to hear, but it's not very fair to the other party.
> 
> Yes, the attraction factor is gone in my marriage. That came after years of feeling lonely, alone and depressed about being in it. It took this long for me to tell my husband what I'm feeling BECAUSE I didn't want to "just up and leave." But to say you shouldn't base that decision "purely on emotion"...?? Umm, emotion is all there is in a relationship, kind sir. It's what starts it, what keeps it together and eventually can possibly pull it apart.
> 
> I have held on this long because of the kids, the finances, the chance somehow I (or my husband) would change & make me feel more attracted to him. Now the only decision left is an emotional one. So I'm just supposed to stay with him forever, even though I don't feel that way towards him anymore? It's not like I WANT to give up on a relationship of 20 years, but I'm supposed to hang onto it anyway, just because it's been that long? How is that fair to him, to be with someone who can't reciprocate those feelings?
> 
> Sorry for being an "emotional" woman. Lord forbid I have feelings & needs & not only want them to be met, but to be in a relationship where I can have the desire to fulfill those things for the other person. But you're saying I should just "stick it through" because...I have no idea what your justification is for that...because that's what you're "supposed to do"? It would be better if I just had an affair & then "proved" that I really didn't want to be in this relationship anymore? I sure don't see how that would help things, either. As far as your thinking goes, I've "got what I wanted & I'm ready to repeat the cycle." To be polite, let's just say this is an unjust assumption.
> 
> I have asked my husband for a separation, not because I am weak and immature...but because I feel I have been weak & immature up to this point to NOT express my dissatisfaction with the situation & feel it is pointless to keep pretending there is nothing wrong. I do hope that the time apart will make me feel what I have been missing with him...but right now, it is very early in this process for me, so I don't have a lot of hope for that. Things could change either way, I can't predict the future. I certainly didn't predict I'd be in this situation after being married for 17 years. But I also don't want to give him false hope right now, when I can't return those feelings. I really feel we need to be apart to either see what we're missing or decide it's truly over.
> 
> Sure, I needed to communicate better as to what I needed...I have admitted that to him. That doesn't change the fact that I have felt like this for several years & now I'm supposed to do a 180 & say hey, everything's great now that he finally is aware of what I'm trying to tell him?
> 
> None of this easy for anyone on any side. I'm sorry if I was overly defensive in my reply to you, but your comments hit me as very judgmental and biased to one side of the situation. There are always two sides of the story and you can never know fully what goes on in someone else's relationship. I'm thankful for places like this to discuss these things.


It's not that her feelings have changed that makes her weak, immature and disloyal, its why and how she chooses to deal with it, so my comments may sound harsh but they are nothing compared to the harsh devastation a left-behind spouse goes through, especially one as John, who seems genuine in his willingness to work through this, who wants to learn how to meet his W's needs who has simply not been given the right key nor the path to find it yet, and who has seemingly not been abusive, mean or unkind (though acknowledges, be it true or not, that he was negligent in not nurturing his marriage the way he needed to).

The attraction factor is important, but like basing everything on pure emotion is unstable and can change, attraction can come and go. The thing is one person is NEVER responsible for another's emotions, and thinking that being with someone or without them can make you happy is a failing strategy... We all have emotional needs, and never be sorry for being an emotional person - that is part of why men love women, it is when one is not willing or able to meet those emotional needs and when both people are no longer invested in doing so that divorce becomes a reasonable option.

Having sympathy for John's W is doing a disservice to him, he is on here looking for answers, he is still invested in his marrriage, just as your H probably is, or maybe isn't I don't know, he isn't on here asking questions - if your H is checked out too then yes you are both harming each other by wasting each others time, but if your H is trying to be a good H in the only way he knows and loves you, then the reason its not working all this time is because you are spending all your thoughts looking for a way out - if you are really done with him then stop stringing him along, there is no way to do it nicely you will kill a part of him inside you, but since you are unwilling to find your happpiness wile being married to him that is what you need to do. If you are done the longer you stay there the longer you are denying him his happiness too.

I may seem judgemental, but its because I so strongly believe that when both spouses want their marriage to work it will and I hate seeing people being dishonest to themselves about it - as for you snick, if your H is being the dishonest one then you shouldn't even hesitate, serve him with divorce papers, if he truly is blindsided and repentent he will change his way quickly and since you've already waited so long there shouldn't be a lot of finality over this until you both agree it is best.


----------



## bestplayer

snick369 said:


> I just don't know what he could do to change my mind. Right now, here today, I don't think it's going to change. I am trying to stay open-minded about it & hope it could change, but I think the only way to really know for sure is to separate.
> 
> You are also like my husband, saying "I can change. She will see." I feel a lot of guilt when he says things like that to me. It's not like I wanted or planned to "fall out of love." I understand that he wants to fix things, but I'm afraid that it's past that point. I feel bad saying that to him, but I don't want to keep giving him false hope that everything's going to be OK. It also makes me feel like there's a deadline like, if I'm not back in love with you by May, then I'm right and you're wrong. I know that's completely irrational, but it's just a pressure added to the pain of everything else.
> 
> I do think time is the only thing that's going to work. I don't feel that time should be spent living together, pretending it's all going to come out fine. He's afraid that I will move out & be happier & find someone else. I've had to tell him that is a real possibility. It TOTALLY SUCKS. I don't want to hurt his feelings. But ignoring my own feelings is making me increasingly depressed & resentful & that can't be good for anyone involved.
> 
> I wish I had an answer that makes everyone happy. But since we're both in different places with the relationship, there's going to be someone that's unhappy. Just understand that if your wife might be a lot like me - absolutely nothing about this makes her HAPPY, but she's also not happy way things are, so they have to change. Can the change be done while you're still together? I don't know...how could you change things deep down, when nothing is changing on the surface? The alternative is just staying together & being unhappy until eventually you're also unhappy & then things get REALLY ugly.





> Just understand that if your wife might be a lot like me - absolutely nothing about this makes her HAPPY, but she's also not happy way things are, so they have to change


Listen OP , pls understand right now unlike you & your kids she isn't interested in what is best for your faimly unit so dont waste your time hoping that your dedication & love will make her heartl melt .It doesn't happen rarely happens .



> He's afraid that I will move out & be happier & find someone else. I've had to tell him that is a real possibility...


snick369 , looks like you have already made up mind & deep down you dont want it work , so I think you should just let him know in no certain terms that you dont love him , never did & you are not attracted to him at all & he is not the one you want as a partner . 

Just make sure next time dont marry some one whom you dont love . 

Actually what you & OP's wife are going through is typical walk away syndrome & you might not believe it but when you describe your feelings it as if you are reading the same familiar script we get to hear more often .


----------



## Jayb

I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around, "I don't feel in love, and I don't know if I ever will with you."

Aren't feelings the result of actions?

Sometimes, I don't feel like going to work. But, out of obligation, etc., I go. Eventually, things occur, I work, and at the end of the day, I feel productive and happy.

So, why not go through the motions, to get a feeling? Even any feeling? Is it out of fear that some refuse to fall for their spouse again?


----------



## FrankKissel

Apologies if this comes off as trite or even harsh, but if you will, imagine a marriage/relationship as a living entity, maybe a flower or a plant. It needs to be fed and watered. It needs to be given plenty of sunshine. It needs to be cared for. Stop doing those things, and it starts to die. If you're lucky, you see it dying in time to reverse course and nurse it back to life.

But once it's dead, you can't bring it back, no matter how much TLC you invest after the fact. Dead is dead. And you shouldn't blame the plant for not coming back to life now that you've decided you care enough to give it what it needs. 
My sympathies go out to all sides in situations like this. I doubt very much these wives chose for their relationships to go in this direction. And I doubt their husbands knowingly let things get to this point.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jayb

FrankKissel said:


> Apologies if this comes off as trite or even harsh, but if you will, imagine a marriage/relationship as a living entity, maybe a flower or a plant. It needs to be fed and watered. It needs to be given plenty of sunshine. It needs to be cared for. Stop doing those things, and it starts to die. If you're lucky, you see it dying in time to reverse course and nurse it back to life.
> 
> *But once it's dead, you can't bring it back, no matter how much TLC you invest after the fact. Dead is dead. And you shouldn't blame the plant for not coming back to life now that you've decided you care enough to give it what it needs.
> My sympathies go out to all sides in situations like this. I doubt very much these wives chose for their relationships to go in this direction. And I doubt their husbands knowingly let things get to this point.*_Posted via Mobile Device_


But, we are dealing with 2 people who can actively choose to bring life to it, or grow to something else. It's not like we don't have a choice and when neither nutures the relationship, we can't repair it. 

It comes down to willingness, trust, beliefs, obligations, support, etc.

Some refuse. It's a choice they make. That doesn't mean they can't return and choose to grow it again.

I realize it takes 2 partners. I also realize that the actions/reactions of 1 partner, strongly influences the responses of the other. And this cycle continues over time. And feelings are a by-product.


----------



## snick369

bestplayer said:


> snick369 , looks like you have already made up mind & deep down you dont want it work , so I think you should just let him know in no certain terms that you dont love him , never did & you are not attracted to him at all & he is not the one you want as a partner .
> 
> Just make sure next time dont marry some one whom you dont love .
> 
> Actually what you & OP's wife are going through is typical walk away syndrome & you might not believe it but when you describe your feelings it as if you are reading the same familiar script we get to hear more often .


Bestplayer: "never did" love him is not the truth. I wish it were, it would be so much easier for both of us...just say hey, this was doomed from the beginning, we should have cut & run long ago. But we have 2 kids & have been together for a long time, there definitely was attraction & spark & partnership. Over the years with kids, work, other issues, blah, blah, blah (the usual stuff), we stopped working on our relationship & basically became roommates.

I did marry someone I loved very much & thought I'd be with forever, I really did. Unfortunately, what was felt 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago is not the same. And that's why I'm trying to give it a chance, participating in MC, trying not to close myself off emotionally. The worry I have that it's beyond repair, I suppose, is a post for another thread. "How do you fall back in love, once you've convinced yourself it's over?" I'm sure I can search and find a similar conversation.

For some reason the "Walk Away Wife" thing sticks in my craw. I did read it & I do see myself in that, very much. Perhaps the delivery of the information is what is rubbing me the wrong way. I feel that it's saying women sit around waiting to do this & we're all the same & eventually all us crazy b****es are going to do this to a man. Or perhaps I'm just overly sensitive.

But I definitely don't understand why it's completely geared towards a "woman's problem"...I'm sure a lot of guys do the same thing, if they are not satisfied with their marriage. Differenc is, they are typically the breadwinners in the family, so if they feel they're done, they can just go...they don't have to wait until kids graduate, etc.

If a guy wants his relationship to be over, he can just leave - as long as he spends some time with the kids now & then and sends money to keep the family in food, clothing & shelter, society is satisfied. If a woman wants her relationship to be over, she's seen as this horrible Mom who is abandoning her family or leaving them without a Dad & she must have been planning this all along & must be cheating on him & is just going to do this to the next poor guy.

The paragraph above, of course, is a gross generalization and should be read with tongue in cheek LOL


----------



## Lon

> And that's why I'm trying to give it a chance, participating in MC, trying not to close myself off emotionally. The worry I have that it's beyond repair, I suppose, is a post for another thread. "How do you fall back in love, once you've convinced yourself it's over?"


Just going and talking isn't giving it a chance - you are going there expecting your H to say something to change you of your conviction. Nobody can convince you that it's not over, only you can by simply saying "ok this (find one thing) is one thing that is good it will be a starting point to build this back up" but as long as you keep yourself shut emotionally he has no chance at getting through to you.

What hurts me to read your words is they are the same words a cheater uses except when a cheater is in an affair it is always the fog that makes them so convinced, as you are not in an affair it doesn't make sense that you would be so on the fence, unless of course there is something else fogging your vision. If so, your goal in MC (and/or IC) is to cut through whatever is preventing you from so clearly being able to see what you need and want... So give him a chance, tell him what you need and if he atleast tries then you have a real chance to grow past all this, even if he tries and fails, because there is always room to grow.

If he doesn't try, and you find clarity, then it becomes an easy decision even if it is not the same thing as what he wants. If you are honest with yourself there is no reason for hesitation.

Oh and BTW, walkaway wife is a harsh sounding term, because it is so accurate (and doesn't just universally apply to any marriage that fails because the W is the one that leaves or wants the D) There are equivalent terms for men who abandon their marriages too: @ssholes... sometimes the word narcissist will also do.


----------



## Jayb

I think it's good if you go into MC with an open mind to work on yourself to improve the M.

Don't go into it like my W did. She went to MC in order to support me going through this difficult, emotional time, while her mind had already been made up.

The 3 times we went, I always questioned her motives. Was she really going with an open mind, like she originally said she would, or was she already checked out, just going through the motions?

Unfortunately, it was the latter. Now, I'm set back somewhat because, I believe there's some hope, but I just don't know how to spark it. She said she's done and that may be this moment.

That being said, I'm working on me for me, and expecting the worst. I cannot be so heartbroken by her again.


----------



## snick369

Lon said:


> as you are not in an affair it doesn't make sense that you would be so on the fence, unless of course there is something else fogging your vision. If so, your goal in MC (and/or IC) is to cut through whatever is preventing you from so clearly being able to see what you need and want... So give him a chance, tell him what you need and if he atleast tries then you have a real chance to grow past all this, even if he tries and fails, because there is always room to grow.


I am starting back with IC to see what is causing my "fog" - as advised by the MC. IC is what brought the unhappiness in my marriage to light & I started talking to him about the things I needed & that we needed to do...but he never took them as a serious threat to our marriage, even though I told him we were on the brink of separation & asked him to go to MC and/or to a marriage workshop weekend (denial? man's way of thinking? my poor communication? who knows). That was a year ago, and since nothing but surface changes were made, now he has finally agreed to MC & wants to fix everything, after I've said it's time to separate, for real. A year is a long time to feel unheard, in that time I made the decision in my head, I guess, that he's never going to hear me & I need to go. But I'm trying really hard to open back up. Not sure what it will take to feel more positive about that.

Looks like it's time to leave the relationship issues with the MC now & move IC into deeper territory, to see what is causing my ambivalence. Fear of failure? Clinical depression? Is the marriage really the root of the problem, or is it coming from somewhere else? Guess that's what I need to find out.

Thanks for your help & advice.

Thanks for your advice.


----------



## Lon

snick, I guarantee when you drop the D word on him (and not just saying it but by taking action) he will realize the seriousness of the threat - I am just hoping you can stay open-minded and open-hearted with him until he gets past that point.

My ex was trying to address the same issues as you, and I knew it was important but I didn't really realize they were dealbreakers, and I didn't know what to do about this, so in typical male fashion I tried to keep everything settled, afraid to stir the pot for fear I would do something destructive, not really capable of understanding my lack of action was more harmful. It was when she said she was moving out, and did in fact start staying at a friends house that I realized this was very likely the end, but I went into survival mode... I was spurred into action, and the frustrating thing is the changes she wanted to see in me I had to make happen for myself regardless of whether or not she stayed. 

Every time I see a story of a marriage ending this way, just like I see in yours it makes me sad, angry and heartbroken to know how close it was to being solvable, especially when it has not all been tainted with infidelity and other disloyal choices, but by the time the H took action the W was just out the door, not looking back.

What I so hope can happen for you is to have just a little more patience, risk opening your heart up to your H, and showing him through actions (start the divorce paperwork and lining up your exit strategy) that you value your short time on this world and deserve to have the things you need, being deliberate and working on finding clarity and ways to get through to him. Start walking out the door but do it loudly, don't sneak and remember to keep looking back for the man you fell in love with.


----------



## Jayb

Lon said:


> snick, I guarantee when you drop the D word on him (and not just saying it but by taking action) he will realize the seriousness of the threat - I am just hoping you can stay open-minded and open-hearted with him until he gets past that point.
> 
> My ex was trying to address the same issues as you, and I knew it was important but I didn't really realize they were dealbreakers, and I didn't know what to do about this, so in typical male fashion I tried to keep everything settled, afraid to stir the pot for fear I would do something destructive, not really capable of understanding my lack of action was more harmful. It was when she said she was moving out, and did in fact start staying at a friends house that I realized this was very likely the end, but I went into survival mode... I was spurred into action, and the frustrating thing is the changes she wanted to see in me I had to make happen for myself regardless of whether or not she stayed.
> 
> Every time I see a story of a marriage ending this way, just like I see in yours it makes me sad, angry and heartbroken to know how close it was to being solvable, especially when it has not all been tainted with infidelity and other disloyal choices, but by the time the H took action the W was just out the door, not looking back.
> 
> *What I so hope can happen for you is to have just a little more patience, risk opening your heart up to your H*, and showing him through actions (start the divorce paperwork and lining up your exit strategy) that you value your short time on this world and deserve to have the things you need, being deliberate and working on finding clarity and ways to get through to him. Start walking out the door but do it loudly, don't sneak and remember to keep looking back for the man you fell in love with.


That's all I'm asking of my wife right now. But, I don't know how to approach "gauging" where she's at a week after giving up on MC.


----------



## Lon

I don't think it is really our job to gauge them, just go about living the right way and leaving the door to our heart open for them... until it is really time to close it (after they no longer want in), the catch is that you can't know if there are even on the threshold unless you open it to look.

It is different direction of flow for the one choosing to leave then the one left behind, so for the one leaving with a closed heart, go ahead and start the divorce process, show them that you don't want to be an option, that you will respectfully take care of your own needs, and just allow life to unfold, but if you hear a knock for pete's sake open it up, no need to deliberately make this a tragedy.


----------



## john1024

Lon said:


> Start walking out the door but do it loudly, don't sneak and remember to keep looking back for the man you fell in love with.


Just love this line. That's all I ask, but I don't think I'm going to get it.


----------



## Lon

john1024 said:


> Just love this line. That's all I ask, but I don't think I'm going to get it.


Yeah, I didn't get a glance either, it really is heartbreaking, it is sad and difficult enough while dating and building a relationship but is quite cruel and devastating after marriage vows, especially when, as in most divorces, it is not a mutual choice.


----------



## ladybird

Pluto2 said:


> As a spouse with a neglectful husband I disagree with the posters who believe there is another man. What gets me about your post-and I'm not trying to be mean-is that you admit that you didn't help and that you neglected her, but its her fault for not telling you. Why should she have to? Why should she only get help and respect when she asks for it? You are not a child and you shouldn't have to be told to pick up your things, or do the dishes, or whatever it is that needed to be done. Clearly there was miscommunication on both sides, but do NOT blame her because you were being inconsiderate.
> Is she willing to try MC?


I would have to agree. I am done and there is not another man in my life. The only difference is that i have talked to my husband and nothing ever changed.


----------



## Jayb

ladybird said:


> I would have to agree. I am done and there is not another man in my life. The only difference is that i have talked to my husband and nothing ever changed.


I'm so sorry for your situation. I wish to God that my wife would have talked to me before she said, goodbye, no chance left.


Damn.


----------



## john1024

Starting to get a little bitter. Maybe that's natural. Despite being on my best behavior for the past 2 weeks (that's not an act, mind you, that is the beginning of a permanent change for the better), communication with my W has gotten worse. She doesn't initiate any conversations. When I ask her a question, she answers in the shortest way possible. She clearly avoids me. 

Tomorrow, we are supposed to sit down and talk about how to split things up during separation/divorce. That's a nightmare conversation for me, but I'm willing to have it b/c I recognize where she is and want to plan for that likely event in the smartest way possible. I asked her if she wanted to see a movie afterwards as a diversion from all of the crap and she said she wanted to see the movie, was willing to go with me, but didn't want me to get the wrong idea. I wanted to say don't do me any favors; you have been a real b***h to me these past couple of weeks, I don't think I'll get the wrong idea. On the other hand, I do relish some "normal" moments with her -- in a sense that is what I miss the most; unforced conversations, doing things together, being around each other without feeling awkward. I guess that is really gone.


----------



## cdavis

John,

Keep your cool through meeting. Reality of it will start to hit more and more for her. I think its a opportunity for you if you handle it cool. I would not low ball, try to be fair and offer choices for her whenever possible on what to split.

CD


----------



## sophiem

Yes, the best play is to concentrate on self improvement during the type separated. Rather than spinning emotionally out of control into anger and blame, focus on yourself for a while. Do what you can to examine your own role in the situation, and share what you come up with.

there is always hope.


----------



## SRN

Damn. Take the kids out of this whole thread and this is my story to the T with John and Jayb playing my part and snick playing my wife.
This thread has been most enlightening. My marriage is already at the separation point (has been for about a month) but what snick has said really rings true as to my wifes behavior. She doesn't want to hurt me, she still "cares" for me so thats why she never brought anything up until it was too late. And now she's out.
*sigh*


----------



## Jayb

oh, but my W doesn't want to hurt me because she loves me. Well, loves me as a friend. Nothing more, so don't get my hopes up.....


----------



## sisters359

If you read the walk away stuff, you should know that most women do state what they want and need but because they do not threaten to leave, b/c they think that a loving spouse will respond lovingly to expressed needs, they keep trying--by stating what they want and need in different ways, to see if they can "get through" to this person who is supposed to love and cherish them. What they typically find is a temporary response--a man who will do as little as possible to "get his wife off his back," and then secretly be glad when she stops expressing needs (which he views as criticism and nagging), and allow themselves to slide back as soon as they can get away with it. To say that *most* women do NOT tell their men exactly what they want and need is misrepresenting the situation, when it comes to what the WAW research shows. I'm not saying all men are like this--by no means. But a lot of men (and women too, b/c there are "walk away husbands," ) view marriage in what is primarily a negative way--"you are stuck with me now, and I'm going to do as little as possible so I can enjoy what I like w/o having to work too hard to meet your needs." It's an immature response. 

The biggest mistake the WAW makes is thinking she can continue to live w/o her needs met--because that is the decision she makes after several years of effort, and she makes that decision b/c she DOES value the commitment and the children and does not want to break up the family. 

I was a WAW, and my ex could not deny that I cherished him--I supported what he wanted to do, and cheerfully so--whether it was big (like career related) or little (he wanted to join a tennis team). I never refused sex for at least the first 10 years. I treated him lovingly--and continued to do so after it became clear he was not going to meet my needs. I assumed he was simply incapable, and so I tried hard to make it without those needs met. 

When I pointed out to my ex (before the divorce) that I had consistently expressed needs for several years before I gave up, his response was, "Well, how was I to know it was important? You didn't scream or cry or anything." I was stunned--you mean I have to scream at someone who is supposed to love me, and has promised to cherish me, to get his attention? Besides, I also knew darn well that if I had screamed or cried or threatened to leave, he would have done the same thing--met my needs for a while, then started back sliding. The bottom line was that his behavior had taught me that my needs were actually not very important to him. I was never interested in playing a game, like "well, if you don't meet my needs, I won't meet yours!" because that seemed even more doomed to failure, was not consistent with my vows, and would have made him resentful instead of bringing about change. 

After I gave up trying to get him to meet my needs, I started finding other ways to get those needs met--friends, family, myself. He became irrelevant, basically, to my happiness. I viewed him as another child needing my care, and *that* is when I started finding it harder to have sex with him. Eventually, I reached the point where I realized I could NOT have sex with him, so I realized it was time to leave. Up to that point, leaving had never really been an option (although I considered it many times) because I was committed to my family. But you can't be married to someone you cannot bring yourself to have sex with. 

I'm writing this b/c some of the men in this thread are blaming their wives for "not giving them a chance," and knowing my own history, I would say that they are really saying that their wives should give them one more chance--after many chances have already been given. From a wife's point of view, there were many chances--and until the husband realized HIS cozy little world was going to be affected, he simply didn't care enough to make anything of those chances. It's like, the ex didn't really care about me or my happiness-it was only when his own was about to be disturbed that he finally decided to make an effort. That's not love--that is pure and utter selfishness. And the wife makes the decision--no, it is finally MY turn to be selfish--because if I don't take care of myself, you sure as heck won't, because even now, all that motivates you is your selfishness, not love for me. 

I cannot possibly know if my way of seeing the WAW thing applies in the situations of the men here--or the women. But I think this other point of view needs to be considered. I guess what I'm trying to say is that when a woman says she is "done," it means she has recognized that she and her husband have mutually exclusive selfish needs--and she has finally chosen to take care of herself. The relief she feels at realizing her ordeal is over is the biggest barrier to reconciliation.


----------



## nnoodle

AMEN Sisters359!!!

I do find it curious how many men have posted incredulously about the WAW syndrom and in the same breath acknowledge they think their wives 'checked out' of the marriage years prior. 

One might ask the very hard question "If you saw her checking out, why didn't you do something then?" 

If you love her so much, why didn't you ask then?

If you love her so much, why didn't you listen then? 

If you love her so much, why didn't you meet her needs then?

If you love her so much, why did you withold affection and attention then?

I do think some of these men need to get real about how/why they have ended up where they are now. 

Waiting until your wife is one foot out the door to suddenly "get it" and do a big change seems almost more insulting.

To me it indicates knowledge of what should have been done all along but the spouse was too lazy/selfish to do so until their way of life is threatened. 

But that is just my opinion and I am in a really crappy mood.


----------



## Jayb

nnoodle said:


> AMEN Sisters359!!!
> 
> I do find it curious how many men have posted incredulously about the WAW syndrom and in the same breath acknowledge they think their wives 'checked out' of the marriage years prior.
> 
> One might ask the very hard question "If you saw her checking out, why didn't you do something then?"
> 
> If you love her so much, why didn't you ask then?
> 
> If you love her so much, why didn't you listen then?
> 
> If you love her so much, why didn't you meet her needs then?
> 
> If you love her so much, why did you withold affection and attention then?
> 
> I do think some of these men need to get real about how/why they have ended up where they are now.
> 
> Waiting until your wife is one foot out the door to suddenly "get it" and do a big change seems almost more insulting.
> 
> To me it indicates knowledge of what should have been done all along but the spouse was too lazy/selfish to do so until their way of life is threatened.
> 
> But that is just my opinion and I am in a really crappy mood.



Yep. I isolated myself and did not communicate anything during the last few years. Communication between us had been lagging for years. 

That being said, neither of us can remember stating exactly to the other how miserable we were, or our M was. 

I find myself farther in the hole in that I had to recover from depression (loving myself) as well as addressing the M, and loving my W. Now that she is on her way out, it is a slap in the face.

Did I take my W for granted? Yes. Our M for granted? Yes. Did my W ever talk to me about it? No. Only NOW does she mention how miserable she was (10 out of 12 years). She isn't sure I ever loved her. And various revisionist history--we were never happy, always this or that....Really??? And NOW you're telling me all of this when you feel safe enough to say you're not coming back and giving me a chance?

Reading 5LL, I'm sure we spoke different languages and did not consider any other. We continued our same actions.


----------



## Beowulf

Why I (and, I suspect, many separated women) regret divorcing

By Jane Gordon

Last weekend, at a family wedding in the country, I was overwhelmed by an emotion that has, in the last year, become only too familiar to me.

Sitting in a stifling marquee, listening to my cousin Sally's husband making the traditional father-of-the-bride speech, I was overcome by a feeling that was part envy, part guilt and part regret.

My cousin's marriage, which has lasted for 25 years, is by no means perfect - what marriage is? - but against the odds, she has achieved something that is now, and always will be, beyond my grasp.

As I looked at her sitting happy and radiant at the top table, laughing uproariously at her husband's far from funny jokes, I realised that, in a world that has horribly devalued the institution of marriage, she was reaping the benefits of putting the love and security of her family first, before any disagreements she might have with her husband in the rough and tumble of daily life.

Watching her united with her husband on such an emotional occasion reminded me sharply of exactly what I had lost - but had no idea I was losing - seven years ago, when I got divorced from my husband, the father of my three children, after 25 years together.

Our relationship had broken down, I can now see, not because of any petty irritations such as his lateness or my untidiness, but because we had both moved irrevocably away from each other.

In the past few years of our marriage, I was more absorbed in my children and my career than I was in my husband while he, feeling increasingly isolated, simply switched off.

It's a scenario that will be familiar to many couples. But how many of them choose to separate, and how many have the gumption to stick it out?

The trouble is nobody tells you the truth about divorce. They tell you it's a 'difficult' experience, and it's generally accepted that the process sits somewhere near the top of the ten most stressful life events.

But in the main it is regarded by society as a necessary evil. A milestone which, in an age when two in five UK marriages will fail, millions of us will go through at some point in our lives.

Indeed, in many ways, divorce is given a more positive spin in our confused modern world than marriage is.

The drawbacks of divorce are believed to be mostly either financial - as if the splitting up of the spoils of a life together were the very worst part of the process - or the fallout experienced by the children.

Little is ever said about the longer-term effects of divorce on the couple. No one ever points out that the repercussions of a marital split will reverberate down the timeline of your life forever.

This week, the Conservatives published a report commissioned by Iain Duncan Smith which proposed a three-month 'cooling off' period for couples considering divorce.

But the idea that couples would be ready to rethink their break-up after such a short period is unrealistic.

As I have discovered the hard way, it is only now, seven years after I received my decree nisi, that I am starting to realise the gravity of what I have done.

If it has taken me this long for the seismic shockwaves of divorce to really hit home, how are warring couples expected to take an informed decision about separation when they are in the midst of the rows, the tension and the recrimination that so often accompany the death throes of a marriage?

It is only now that I am experiencing something akin to the seven-year 'itch' of marriage; the seven-year 'ache' of divorce, a regular recurrence of the emotion I experienced at that recent wedding - a pang, a regret for what has gone for ever.

There is much in my post-divorced life that I am grateful for and happy about. I have gained a new partner and two stepchildren, and our 'blended' family is more harmonious than anyone could have expected.

My ex-husband, who is a media consultant, has 'moved on' to a perfectly ordered and elegant bachelor apartment and a social life (with a series of ever-younger girlfriends) that is the envy of his old married friends.

On the surface, we have 'come through' our split relatively unscathed. But however contented I might be with my new partner Robin - and he with me - we realise that our relationship is, well, somehow second-best.

Our true loyalties lie not with our new 'blended' family, but with our own biological children and the ex-partners from whom we were both amicably divorced.

The important occasions in family life which I used to love - birthdays, Christmas and so on - are now difficult, trying times.

They are unsatisfactory no matter how hard we try; whether my partner and I attempt - as we have on several occasions - to unite our new and old lives or agree to simply be apart for the 'sake' of our children.

Now, for example, we spend Christmas apart - each ensconced with our children and ex-partners - which causes huge tension between us and has made us both dread the annual celebrations.

When my husband and I parted, my view of divorce was simplistic. I believed in the notion of divorce as a clean break and imagined a 'fresh start' would solve all my problems.

It wasn't a decision made lightly, but I had no idea of the true complexity of unravelling a life that had been led in tandem with someone else for more than 20 years.

It was the death of my parents, within six months of each other in 2008, that was the catalyst for my change of heart.

At my father's funeral, my brother made a moving address about the formidable achievements of an extraordinary man. He concluded that the greatest achievement of all was his remarkable partnership - over 60 years - with my mother.

The fact that I had not been able to give my own children the security that I had taken for granted shamed and upset me almost as much as the loss of my adored parents.

My children hadn't lost their parents when my husband and I divorced, but they had lost their family home and the continuity of family life that makes the journey from childhood to adulthood so much more comforting and secure.

It was at that funeral that I first experienced the feeling - part envy, part guilt and part regret - that has haunted me ever since.

With my new partner sympathetically sitting by my side and my ex-husband (who shared so much of my family history and yet had somehow been edited out of it), standing in the gallery, I truly understood what I had lost.

And there have been countless other moments in the past year when I have experienced similar feelings.

Last month, I attended a dinner party thrown by a close female friend whose own marriage had shifted perilously close to the edge of divorce, shortly after mine did, because her husband had an affair.

At the time of my break-up, my view of other people's marriages was as skewed as my view of my own, and I viewed her reluctance to divorce in a cynical way - imagining that her main motivation was her fear of losing her status as a married woman.

But I now see there was a much more selfless reason for her tenacity. Because a marriage, however imperfect, isn't just important in the happy moments of life - a child's graduation or wedding for example - but also in the bad times.

Shortly after my friend and her errant husband were reunited, he lost his high-flying City job and he now admits that it would not have been possible for him to recover from that (they started a successful new business together) without her love and support.

Their relationship has changed - my friend admits that she is still wounded by his infidelity - but losing her trust in him for a time is nothing to what she would have lost had she gone ahead with her divorce.

Back then, I couldn't understand her ability to accept his behaviour. But now I have nothing but admiration for the way she was able to take a longer view of her own marriage.

Indeed, I have a similar sense of admiration and envy for a handful of other still-married friends whose relationships I had viewed somewhat cynically because they displayed such open animosity towards each other.

A good marriage - I now realise - is dependent upon the ability of both partners occasionally to be selfless and to compromise.

It is, of course, ironic that divorce has strengthened my belief in marriage. But then the years haven't just changed my view of divorce; they have inevitably blurred my memory of the reasons for our split.

Somewhere in my new home there is a large brown envelope filled with the reasons why we parted, duly noted down by lawyers, but the passage of time has made those mutually exasperating irritations seem petty.

In 2002, they were real and seemingly insurmountable. Had someone told me the truth about divorce then - explained exactly how, in the years ahead, it would impact on my life - perhaps we would still be together.
It is impossible to go back, but at the same time my divorce makes it difficult for me to move forward.

Maybe one day my new partner and I will marry, but the impact of our break-ups - he divorced several years before me - has so far prevented us from making a legal commitment to each other.

Our mutual fears that re-marriage will somehow invalidate our original families, and his concerns about the financial loss he would endure should our marriage subsequently break down, make the notion of a wedding unlikely.

But my divorce hasn't just had a major impact on the likelihood of re-marrying. I worry, too, that it has affected my children's view of marriage.

Will the repercussions of my break-up not only reverberate down the timeline of my life but also the timelines of my children's lives?

My daughters were 19 and 22 when I divorced and my son, who lives with me, was just ten.

Seven years on, my daughters are both much more focused on their careers than their love-lives, and show no sign of settling down in the way that my cousin Sally's daughter - several years younger - has done.

The long-term effects of my divorce, then, may not only deny me the opportunity to be a bride again and thus, in some way, legitimise my new relationship in the eyes of the world.

But they also could prevent me from being the mother-of-the-bride and - ultimately - a grandmother.

To paraphrase William Congreve's famous quote: 'Divorce in haste, repent at leisure.'


----------



## Beowulf

nnoodle said:


> AMEN Sisters359!!!
> 
> I do find it curious how many men have posted incredulously about the WAW syndrom and in the same breath acknowledge they think their wives 'checked out' of the marriage years prior.
> 
> One might ask the very hard question "If you saw her checking out, why didn't you do something then?"
> 
> If you love her so much, why didn't you ask then?
> 
> If you love her so much, why didn't you listen then?
> 
> If you love her so much, why didn't you meet her needs then?
> 
> If you love her so much, why did you withold affection and attention then?
> 
> I do think some of these men need to get real about how/why they have ended up where they are now.
> 
> Waiting until your wife is one foot out the door to suddenly "get it" and do a big change seems almost more insulting.
> 
> To me it indicates knowledge of what should have been done all along but the spouse was too lazy/selfish to do so until their way of life is threatened.
> 
> But that is just my opinion and I am in a really crappy mood.


I find this post extremely sad. Its a fact that women and men communicate differently. A wife may feel she is communicating her issues in a very real way but her husband isn't really understanding the issues or how important they are. And please do not say that men should learn to listen better or I will say that women should learn to speak more clearly. Neither of those is the issue. Its not individual communication that is the problem, its INTER communication that is the issue. Frankly I feel that if the spouse is willing to work on the problem regardless of how long it took them to get there you should give them the opportunity to try. To do anything less is not necessarily selfish but IMO is truly a missed opportunity for happiness. To say why didn't he/she do it sooner just sounds like pettiness to me considering what is at stake.


----------



## Jayb

Beowulf said:


> I find this post extremely sad. Its a fact that women and men communicate differently. A wife may feel she is communicating her issues in a very real way but her husband isn't really understanding the issues or how important they are. And please do not say that men should learn to listen better or I will say that women should learn to speak more clearly. Neither of those is the issue. Its not individual communication that is the problem, its INTER communication that is the issue. Frankly I feel that *if the spouse is willing to work on the problem regardless of how long it took them to get there you should give them the opportunity to try. To do anything less is not necessarily selfish but IMO is truly a missed opportunity for happiness. To say why didn't he/she do it sooner just sounds like pettiness to me considering what is at stake*.


And, I think our children would ask for another shot as well.

But, we dumpees, have to suck it up. Accept it. Move on. Find someone who will truly love us. At least that's what I hear and understand.

Again, my W detached, pulled away, all the while married; relying on me, other family members, etc. Now, when it's forced upon me, I can't rely on the same support group.


----------



## skychase5

sisters359 said:


> If you read the walk away stuff, you should know that most women do state what they want and need but because they do not threaten to leave, b/c they think that a loving spouse will respond lovingly to expressed needs, they keep trying--by stating what they want and need in different ways, to see if they can "get through" to this person who is supposed to love and cherish them. What they typically find is a temporary response--a man who will do as little as possible to "get his wife off his back," and then secretly be glad when she stops expressing needs (which he views as criticism and nagging), and allow themselves to slide back as soon as they can get away with it. To say that *most* women do NOT tell their men exactly what they want and need is misrepresenting the situation, when it comes to what the WAW research shows. I'm not saying all men are like this--by no means. But a lot of men (and women too, b/c there are "walk away husbands," ) view marriage in what is primarily a negative way--"you are stuck with me now, and I'm going to do as little as possible so I can enjoy what I like w/o having to work too hard to meet your needs." It's an immature response.
> 
> The biggest mistake the WAW makes is thinking she can continue to live w/o her needs met--because that is the decision she makes after several years of effort, and she makes that decision b/c she DOES value the commitment and the children and does not want to break up the family.
> 
> I was a WAW, and my ex could not deny that I cherished him--I supported what he wanted to do, and cheerfully so--whether it was big (like career related) or little (he wanted to join a tennis team). I never refused sex for at least the first 10 years. I treated him lovingly--and continued to do so after it became clear he was not going to meet my needs. I assumed he was simply incapable, and so I tried hard to make it without those needs met.
> 
> When I pointed out to my ex (before the divorce) that I had consistently expressed needs for several years before I gave up, his response was, "Well, how was I to know it was important? You didn't scream or cry or anything." I was stunned--you mean I have to scream at someone who is supposed to love me, and has promised to cherish me, to get his attention? Besides, I also knew darn well that if I had screamed or cried or threatened to leave, he would have done the same thing--met my needs for a while, then started back sliding. The bottom line was that his behavior had taught me that my needs were actually not very important to him. I was never interested in playing a game, like "well, if you don't meet my needs, I won't meet yours!" because that seemed even more doomed to failure, was not consistent with my vows, and would have made him resentful instead of bringing about change.
> 
> After I gave up trying to get him to meet my needs, I started finding other ways to get those needs met--friends, family, myself. He became irrelevant, basically, to my happiness. I viewed him as another child needing my care, and *that* is when I started finding it harder to have sex with him. Eventually, I reached the point where I realized I could NOT have sex with him, so I realized it was time to leave. Up to that point, leaving had never really been an option (although I considered it many times) because I was committed to my family. But you can't be married to someone you cannot bring yourself to have sex with.
> 
> I'm writing this b/c some of the men in this thread are blaming their wives for "not giving them a chance," and knowing my own history, I would say that they are really saying that their wives should give them one more chance--after many chances have already been given. From a wife's point of view, there were many chances--and until the husband realized HIS cozy little world was going to be affected, he simply didn't care enough to make anything of those chances. It's like, the ex didn't really care about me or my happiness-it was only when his own was about to be disturbed that he finally decided to make an effort. That's not love--that is pure and utter selfishness. And the wife makes the decision--no, it is finally MY turn to be selfish--because if I don't take care of myself, you sure as heck won't, because even now, all that motivates you is your selfishness, not love for me.
> 
> I cannot possibly know if my way of seeing the WAW thing applies in the situations of the men here--or the women. But I think this other point of view needs to be considered. I guess what I'm trying to say is that when a woman says she is "done," it means she has recognized that she and her husband have mutually exclusive selfish needs--and she has finally chosen to take care of herself. The relief she feels at realizing her ordeal is over is the biggest barrier to reconciliation.




You just completely expressed everything in your post that I was about to type out. Not to mention I am going through an almost exact situation that you describe. Kudos to you for your post.


----------



## Morgiana

My husband probably feels the same way as the original poster; that I am just a WAW. He's recently told me that he doesn't know of a single thing that I ever said was a problem. But I vividly remember telling him on different occasions what I needed.

Quick Examples of what I consider direct communication:
1) I told him directly that I like to have my hair played with; I put his hands on my head and showed him exactly what I wanted. Not five seconds after I took my hands away he removed his and walked past me. He never attempted to touch me like I showed him again.
2) I told him directly that I had an issue with a part of the marriage, that I found a very specific item to be a problem. He looked straight at me and said "I don't see that as an issue. There is no issue." and then he got up and walked away.
3) I suggested MC, but during a fight, he admitted the only reason he would go to MC was so we could talk about "my" problems. I have never been as thunderstruck by something as that day.

After seven years of a WoW addiction so bad he normally played from 6:30 pm to midnight four to five days a week and from 5:30 to 6:30 am each morning, and four years of a travel schedule that had him gone between 40-60% of the time, there is nothing left for me to lean back on. His whole tactic now in trying to keep the marriage together is to continually threaten me that should I file, he will run the entire case through the courts to bankrupt me unless I sign over full physical custody of the kids to him. 

There are so many ways for people to make other people feel insignificant, that they aren't even worth your time. So yes, WAW, I fit the bill. But at some point, I realized that I had more respect for myself than to continue in a marriage where not only can you say the marriage has been neglected but I have also been personally ridiculed when I performed a service for him. 

Some may call me selfish, or prideful; but I do not want to go through my life subjugating myself to a marriage just to say I stayed married. I _believe_ I have tried to fix the issue with him, I _believe_ that he does not want any change, rather he just wants the old 'me' back, and even more importantly : I _believe_ that should I not take a stand for myself, I am going to end up a mentally and spiritually broken individual.

It tears me up that this is going to hurt my kids, but I cannot continue to live like I have. I'm scared, I'm so very deeply hurt that I meant so little to someone I would have done anything for, and I very well may end up losing my kids or my retirement should he really try and drag everything out into the courtroom. But some things in life are worth the fight; sometimes the easy way out is the coward's way out.

*in tears*
-A WAW


----------



## cdavis

This thread is very insightful for those of us on either side of the WAW syndrome. Makes me thing of what I did wrong with my WAW. I think I was generally "there" for her, the "complaints" I got where the the amount of house cleaning she did... but I did more of laundry, all yard work, and had business to run on weekends. Then the bedtime and nighttime routine with the kids, which I should have picked up more on. "Correcting" this did not make a difference while we are staying together.


----------



## Jayb

Morgiana said:


> My husband probably feels the same way as the original poster; that I am just a WAW. He's recently told me that he doesn't know of a single thing that I ever said was a problem. But I vividly remember telling him on different occasions what I needed.
> 
> Quick Examples of what I consider direct communication:
> 1) I told him directly that I like to have my hair played with; I put his hands on my head and showed him exactly what I wanted. Not five seconds after I took my hands away he removed his and walked past me. He never attempted to touch me like I showed him again.
> 2) I told him directly that I had an issue with a part of the marriage, that I found a very specific item to be a problem. He looked straight at me and said "I don't see that as an issue. There is no issue." and then he got up and walked away.
> 3) I suggested MC, but during a fight, he admitted the only reason he would go to MC was so we could talk about "my" problems. I have never been as thunderstruck by something as that day.
> 
> After seven years of a WoW addiction so bad he normally played from 6:30 pm to midnight four to five days a week and from 5:30 to 6:30 am each morning, and four years of a travel schedule that had him gone between 40-60% of the time, there is nothing left for me to lean back on. His whole tactic now in trying to keep the marriage together is to continually threaten me that should I file, he will run the entire case through the courts to bankrupt me unless I sign over full physical custody of the kids to him.
> 
> There are so many ways for people to make other people feel insignificant, that they aren't even worth your time. So yes, WAW, I fit the bill. But at some point, I realized that I had more respect for myself than to continue in a marriage where not only can you say the marriage has been neglected but I have also been personally ridiculed when I performed a service for him.
> 
> Some may call me selfish, or prideful; but I do not want to go through my life subjugating myself to a marriage just to say I stayed married. I _believe_ I have tried to fix the issue with him, I _believe_ that he does not want any change, rather he just wants the old 'me' back, and even more importantly : I _believe_ that should I not take a stand for myself, I am going to end up a mentally and spiritually broken individual.
> 
> It tears me up that this is going to hurt my kids, but I cannot continue to live like I have. I'm scared, I'm so very deeply hurt that I meant so little to someone I would have done anything for, and I very well may end up losing my kids or my retirement should he really try and drag everything out into the courtroom. But some things in life are worth the fight; sometimes the easy way out is the coward's way out.
> 
> *in tears*
> -A WAW


I'm so sorry for your situation. I can't imagine how hard it is for you to make these life-changing decisions and then question them again and again and again. And then make them, unkowning what the future holds.

What about me? I'm ready to crawl across glass, reaching out for something/someone I recognized. For her first. Then, for our children. 

Only to be met with, I love you. Let's be friends.


----------



## Morgiana

Jayb said:


> I'm so sorry for your situation. I can't imagine how hard it is for you to make these life-changing decisions and then question them again and again and again. And then make them, unkowning what the future holds.
> 
> What about me? I'm ready to crawl across glass, reaching out for something/someone I recognized. For her first. Then, for our children.
> 
> Only to be met with, I love you. Let's be friends.


It's hard being on ether side, unless one party truly doesn't care. 

The way I always think of a relationship is that it takes to to tango. If the other party is no longer interested in dancing, no matter how great you danced together you need to make a choice: either you look for a new partner or you spend the rest of your life trapped in your memories of the past. 

Based on my own experience and your use of the past tense in "reaching out for someone you recognized," means to me that you haven't yet been able to move past longing for the 'old' her to see the 'new' her she's becoming. Is it truly to late, I can't answer that. I can tell you that in needing someone to "be on my side" though, I started seeing a therapist. If you really are at your wits end, a therapist may be able to provide you with some perspective.

I've also found that finally allowing anger after the 5th threat in regards to the kids has allowed me to galvanized myself to the fact that I am making the right choice. Anger directed appropriately is a very empowering emotion. I am really digging Adele's "Set fire to the rain" at the moment. For me it's a dialog on how to let go. If you are truly at the end, you can use anger to burn it out of you. 

I suspect at a later date I will be able to look back at the marriage and relive the good, but right now I just want to make it through today; and I will use every device in my toolbox to do just that. I think that the 180 that people talk about is one of those tools, in case you haven't looked into it already.


----------



## Lon

cdavis said:


> This thread is very insightful for those of us on either side of the WAW syndrome. Makes me thing of what I did wrong with my WAW. I think I was generally "there" for her, the "complaints" I got where the the amount of house cleaning she did... but I did more of laundry, all yard work, and had business to run on weekends. Then the bedtime and nighttime routine with the kids, which I should have picked up more on. "Correcting" this did not make a difference while we are staying together.


This sounds exactly what like I felt (for a little while anyway). She was telling me over and over (in different ways, which I did hear) that she was unhappy and wasn't getting her needs met... the problem is she either never said or I never heard her say what exactly she needed... after enough of this we tried MC and it became about being more assertive and attentive with our child, planning date nights more, supporting her business more... these requests made me feel very defensive because I felt like many of these were the things I was already doing and not just doing well they were my entire list of strengths - so there she was saying my best wasn't good enough. So I worked through MC to be open minded, accepting of her requests and actually found more effort to put into these things. Of course I was already doing my 100% - which I was already burned out from, but I just didn't have much else to give so it required sacrifice, I juggled the priorities planned a date here and there, continued to do more of the parenting (while she went out with her yound single friends more and more) trying to focus on the squeaky wheel... and in true fashion it didn't work, only made her frustrated that she couldn't come up with any other excuses why she wasn't attracted to me.

The problem I have discovered since, what her main neglected need was, the unsqueaky wheel, was following a strong decisive man who just went after something, especially her, to bed her, throw her down and get his pleasure from her - she wanted the approval of a bold confident husband. I wasn't bold or confident and nor was I showing her my approval... quite the opposite I was trying for so long to feel like I was earning her approval. I sure wish my MC had known what I've learned on TAM and about relationships since last May.


----------



## Jayb

Lon said:


> This sounds exactly what like I felt (for a little while anyway). She was telling me over and over (in different ways, which I did hear) that she was unhappy and wasn't getting her needs met... the problem is she either never said or I never heard her say what exactly she needed... after enough of this we tried MC and it became about being more assertive and attentive with our child, planning date nights more, supporting her business more... these requests made me feel very defensive because I felt like many of these were the things I was already doing and not just doing well they were my entire list of strengths - so there she was saying my best wasn't good enough. So I worked through MC to be open minded, accepting of her requests and actually found more effort to put into these things. Of course I was already doing my 100% - which I was already burned out from, but I just didn't have much else to give so it required sacrifice, I juggled the priorities planned a date here and there, continued to do more of the parenting (while she went out with her yound single friends more and more) trying to focus on the squeaky wheel... and in true fashion it didn't work, only made her frustrated that she couldn't come up with any other excuses why she wasn't attracted to me.
> 
> *The problem I have discovered since, what her main neglected need was, the unsqueaky wheel, was following a strong decisive man who just went after something, especially her, to bed her, throw her down and get his pleasure from her - she wanted the approval of a bold confident husband. I wasn't bold or confident and nor was I showing her my approval... quite the opposite I was trying for so long to feel like I was earning her approval*. I sure wish my MC had known what I've learned on TAM and about relationships since last May.



That could be similar to my M. I just don't know yet. My W said she was burdened with taking care of me, although I never requested it; it became a dynamic in our relationship.

My personality avoids turmoil, so I would do whatever I could to avoid stirring the waters. I would shoulder the emotions as long as we got along. 

Maybe my W now wants an independent, strong man that she has to go out of her way to please, while taking a chance that he will return love.

I don't know. Right now, we're both without an OP, and have not dated nor communicated to anyone outside our M, and both have stated the possibility of us both remaining single the rest of our lives.


----------



## Jayb

Morgiana said:


> It's hard being on ether side, unless one party truly doesn't care.
> 
> *The way I always think of a relationship is that it takes to to tango. If the other party is no longer interested in dancing, no matter how great you danced together you need to make a choice: either you look for a new partner or you spend the rest of your life trapped in your memories of the past. *
> Based on my own experience and your use of the past tense in "reaching out for someone you recognized," means to me that you haven't yet been able to move past longing for the 'old' her to see the 'new' her she's becoming. Is it truly to late, I can't answer that. I can tell you that in needing someone to "be on my side" though, I started seeing a therapist. If you really are at your wits end, a therapist may be able to provide you with some perspective.
> 
> I've also found that finally allowing anger after the 5th threat in regards to the kids has allowed me to galvanized myself to the fact that I am making the right choice. Anger directed appropriately is a very empowering emotion. I am really digging Adele's "Set fire to the rain" at the moment. For me it's a dialog on how to let go. If you are truly at the end, you can use anger to burn it out of you.
> 
> I suspect at a later date I will be able to look back at the marriage and relive the good, but right now I just want to make it through today; and I will use every device in my toolbox to do just that. I think that the 180 that people talk about is one of those tools, in case you haven't looked into it already.



Just out of curiosity, how does one look for a new partner? I am not there yet. I have children and am very active in their lives. 

Looking........seems desparate. 

I have heard that anger can be used productively to detach and/or focus on other aspects of life. 

I'm mad because my W had me actively in the M while she pulled away/detached. Now, when I'm advised to do the same, I can't rely on her (my best friend) the way she did me.

And, since I isolated myself to our family, I am without a close friend support group. It's just me, alone. Yes, I have to make friends. It's very difficult to do at this stage, when all of this is weighing on my mind.


----------



## cdavis

Lon said:


> The problem I have discovered since, what her main neglected need was, the unsqueaky wheel, was following a strong decisive man who just went after something, especially her, to bed her, throw her down and get his pleasure from her - she wanted the approval of a bold confident husband. I wasn't bold or confident and nor was I showing her my approval... .


This may very well fit many of the other posters concerns but I somewhat followed this path and seemed to make matters worse. It was easy for me for because I been getting into shape and "had fun" outside the marriage and gained confidence. I think it certainly good advise for those that still have a sexual relationship with wife that is showing signs of leaving to _really mix it up in bed and try different things_. My wife has become not interested in men and I think just really wants to pleasure herself (not be with other women), and even though not often (I haven't caught her on her own and not sure when she would have time to do it). In my case I lost weight and worked out... and she would come once or twice when I "went down on her", but she should still seem to want sex in the following days even though it certainly seemed for her, it was more to just appease me? What I did not try to was satisfying her then stopping (no sex for me) or getting her worked up but then not finishing (teasing?).


----------



## Morgiana

I can honestly say that sex by itself was never my issue; it was really just acceptance and looking for someone to support me as well. I am willing to bend over backwards and give the shirt off my back to those I love, and to be ignored when I said "I really need you to do this to make me feel special to you," is what did me in. 

Yes, in a lot of regards it's easier to follow someone who is very forthright, but I'm personally I'm not looking to follow my husband for the rest of my life; I want someone to walk beside. This doesn't hold true for everyone, but I've realized that the 'classical' model of wife doesn't apply to me. That doesn't mean that it rings everyone's bell though.

From everything that I have read, it does appear that the sexual aspect of a marriage is more important to a man than to a woman, so I can understand where you are coming from, but at the same time I know that for me at least, the 'loving touches' and equality in my spouse's eyes are what I need. Neither of which I have unfortunately been able to get fulfilled.


----------

