# Light at the end of the tunnel or random hormonal spike?



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I am only home on the weekends now because I have a new job. It is an excellent job with great people.

My W has been going through menopause - tough stuff for her and not great for our sex life. She of course is the bomb and will always play if I want. But for many months she has had pain down below which prevents intercourse and her desire level has been low. It is easy to say she can just pleasure me - but honestly I don't have it in me to want more than once a week of completely one way sex. 

Luckily she is just really fun to be with and so the non-bedroom part of our marriage has been great. And she gives killer back scratches and back massages which isn't a bad consolation prize. 

But Friday she picked me up at the airport and she was hot. If we had had a bench seat in the front instead of a stick shift between us - I don't think I would have gotten home without reaching the rapture. 

So she showers and I shower - our normal routine. And then I come into the bedroom and she asks me to get her this book she is reading. Thanks to BBW - aka the Wolf - I immediately recognize this for what it is - her desire for friction. 

So I just give her this flat affect and say 'no'. I get on the bed and she continues to repeat her request for her book giving me this mischevious smile. I keep the flat affect and tell her to stop. She persists as I I get more and more physically aggressive. Then I rip her towel off. And 10 minutes later she is hitting the rapture HARD and I am quietly smiling inside. 

And 10 minutes after that I follow her into that place of joy. 

Emotional friction - what a concept. Thanks Wolf.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

hall of famer you just hit 3000 posts!


love you posts great job can't wait for the next 3000


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

LOL - thanks CM. I have learned a LOT here. 




chillymorn said:


> hall of famer you just hit 3000 posts!
> 
> 
> love you posts great job can't wait for the next 3000


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

And taught plenty.




MEM11363 said:


> LOL - thanks CM. I have learned a LOT here.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

Ah yes the bench seat (he sighs). Many happy times were had by yours truly with a few girls and the blessed bench seat.

Bring it back!

:soapbox:


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Damn, wish you posted this a couple of weeks ago. Had almost the same experience, except I DIDN"T see it for what it was, missed my cue and played it all wrong. I was annoyed, but didn't show it. Pretended I could care less, tossed her her book and went and played XBox.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> Damn, wish you posted this a couple of weeks ago. Had almost the same experience, except I DIDN"T see it for what it was, missed my cue and played it all wrong. I was annoyed, but didn't show it. Pretended I could care less, tossed her her book and went and played XBox.


Keep your powder dry for next time.

You KNOW there will be a next time.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

damn straight. She is returning from a trip tonight. Been away for a week and has been hinting via text. I think I will climb into bed tonight and ask her for my book when she comes in. lol.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> damn straight. She is returning from a trip tonight. Been away for a week and has been hinting via text. I think I will climb into bed tonight and ask her for my book when she comes in. lol.


I'll award you with retroactively passing that last fitness test.

She'll likely laugh her buttocks off.


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## joelmacdad (Jul 26, 2010)

Thanks Mem! I have learned an extreme amount from your posts and PM's. Also plenty learned from BBW, Conrad, and others on this "emotional friction" subject.

For the past three years or so I now know for sure my wife is doing this to me. Here are the recent "emotional friction" subjects at the end of a day when we are getting ready for bed:
-sleeping in separate beds so she can sleep better
-getting her the remote that fell on the floor
-going to bed with the light on after I'm already in bed and asking me to turn it off

I'm sure there are others. Lots of others.



MEM11363 said:


> So I just give her this flat affect and say 'no'. I get on the bed and she continues to repeat her request for her book giving me this mischevious smile. I keep the flat affect and tell her to stop. She persists as I I get more and more physically aggressive. Then I rip her towel off. And 10 minutes later she is hitting the rapture HARD and I am quietly smiling inside.
> 
> And 10 minutes after that I follow her into that place of joy.
> 
> Emotional friction - what a concept. Thanks Wolf.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Joel,

Read up again on fitness tests.

That's what those are.

The more humor and play you can inject into them, the healthier you two will become.

It's their "language".



joelmacdad said:


> Thanks Mem! I have learned an extreme amount from your posts and PM's. Also plenty learned from BBW, Conrad, and others on this "emotional friction" subject.
> 
> For the past three years or so I now know for sure my wife is doing this to me. Here are the recent "emotional friction" subjects at the end of a day when we are getting ready for bed:
> -sleeping in separate beds so she can sleep better
> ...


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## joelmacdad (Jul 26, 2010)

I search "fitness tests" almost everyday to see the latest postings by all of you experts on the subject. And it is just great stuff.

How quickly MEM's "radiate calm" turns into "playfully aggressive" which leads to the promise land in many cases.

My wife does not like the "radiate calm" new part of me at all. But I sure like the results of it. Nice.




Conrad said:


> Joel,
> 
> Read up again on fitness tests.
> 
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Joel,

On a primal level that radiant calm lets her know she's not in control.

So, she seeks other means to assert control.

Let her.





joelmacdad said:


> I search "fitness tests" almost everyday to see the latest postings by all of you experts on the subject. And it is just great stuff.
> 
> How quickly MEM's "radiate calm" turns into "playfully aggressive" which leads to the promise land in many cases.
> 
> My wife does not like the "radiate calm" new part of me at all. But I sure like the results of it. Nice.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

After another joyous weekend together I am inclined to respond to this one. 

Ah - the classic 'remote that fell on the floor'

While there are a nearly infinite number of effective responses to this one, I have a few favorites and this is one of them. 

Turns out that the human palm - when stroked very lightly - gets itchy. Quite annoying really. When asked to get the remote I gently reach over, take one of my W's hands and stroke the palm. This makes her rather irritated - her hand closes and she scratches it with her other. AND she says 'what the hell'? And I say totally deadpan. 

"Baby you asked me to get the remote you dropped/knocked off the bed. So I was worried you were suffering dual, and simultaneous system failure in your hands." 

Then I pause and look confused. 
"Turns out that little "system test" I just did proves both your hands are working fine. Why did you ask me to get the remote"?

This causes her to become moderately physically violent. And frankly for her - physical violence and desire are next door neighbors on a bad day and identical twins on a good day. 

As for separate bedrooms this is not something I have faced.

As long as she is the one departing from the master bedroom - I would have no comment. Not my place to tell her where to sleep. If however she was asking me to leave the master - I would nicely tell her that if she needs space she is welcome to leave "our" bedroom but not welcome to ask me to do so - EVER. 






joelmacdad said:


> Thanks Mem! I have learned an extreme amount from your posts and PM's. Also plenty learned from BBW, Conrad, and others on this "emotional friction" subject.
> 
> For the past three years or so I now know for sure my wife is doing this to me. Here are the recent "emotional friction" subjects at the end of a day when we are getting ready for bed:
> -sleeping in separate beds so she can sleep better
> ...


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## joelmacdad (Jul 26, 2010)

My latest fallen remote response: "I thought you knocked it off so Lola (our 8 lb Shi Tzu) could catch the latest episode of Dogs 101 on Animal Planet". I got a few laughing punches for that one.

The bed issue is more about separate beds than separate rooms. Typically comes up after a time of covers tug of war when we both hit the bed at the same time. My last response: "I've been wondering when the camping cot you bought a few years back would be put to use". More laughing punches of course. Then the covers got really tangled.



MEM11363 said:


> After another joyous weekend together I am inclined to respond to this one.
> 
> Ah - the classic 'remote that fell on the floor'
> 
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

joelmacdad said:


> My latest fallen remote response: "I thought you knocked if off so Lola (our 8 lb Shi Tzu) could catch the latest episode of Dogs 101 on Animal Planet". I got a few laughing punches for that one.
> 
> The bed issue is more about separate beds than separate rooms. Typically comes up after a time of covers tug of war when we both hit the bed at the same time. My last response: "I've been wondering when the camping cot you bought a few years back would be put to use". More laughing punches of course. Then the covers got really tangled.


Joel,

Take a bow sir.

I'll bet they got tangled.


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## joelmacdad (Jul 26, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Joel,
> 
> Take a bow sir.
> 
> I'll bet they got tangled.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Once you have this 'down', you will wonder how these things ever used to turn into disagreements, arguments, or dressing-down's in the first place.

Humor and a good natured smile are like kryptonite against a sh!t test.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

A humorously violent response from your W is ULTIMATE proof that you completely nailed any sh!t test. 

Joel - you have arrived.




joelmacdad said:


> My latest fallen remote response: "I thought you knocked it off so Lola (our 8 lb Shi Tzu) could catch the latest episode of Dogs 101 on Animal Planet". I got a few laughing punches for that one.
> 
> The bed issue is more about separate beds than separate rooms. Typically comes up after a time of covers tug of war when we both hit the bed at the same time. My last response: "I've been wondering when the camping cot you bought a few years back would be put to use". More laughing punches of course. Then the covers got really tangled.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Wife's "pain" during intercourse has mysteriously vanished. 

A little over a month ago I took a new job. Well - to be accurate I took a "job" as I hadn't really worked much in the last two years. This is the 'hunter' provider model. Hunter leaves for 5 days each week and returns with good sized kill. The combo of:
- more attractive (yes that provider rating circuitry is powerful stuff) and
- less available 

And that has produced a lot of passion in a short timeframe. Love my wife. She is a real woman in the best sense of the word. 






Deejo said:


> Once you have this 'down', you will wonder how these things ever used to turn into disagreements, arguments, or dressing-down's in the first place.
> 
> Humor and a good natured smile are like kryptonite against a sh!t test.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Sometimes, "pain" disappears as mysteriously as it appears.

Good to hear.


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

That's interesting, mine still has it. Unexplained and varies as to it's intensity. MEM, are you suggesting it was real pain that has gone away just as mysteriously as it started, or something else that seemed to pass as she was more "interested"?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Eagle,
Some context. 

Without a doubt one of my wife's favorite activities is "correcting me" when I am wrong. She is exceptionally alert in this area and her delivery is typically very funny so I take it in the spirit in which it is given. Honest, direct and good natured. BTW she mischievously smiles and nods when I point out just how much entertainment she gets from catching me in "errors or omissions". 

That said a few years ago we had a CTJ about my "soft telephathy" where I would read her involuntary micro-expressions and then say aloud exactly what she was thinking. She never once disputed the accuracy of my reads. Not once. She did however complain quite sincerely about the invasion of her privacy. So let's accept as fact that her ability to deceive me is basically zero. 

If you wish to understand the extent of my ability in this area, go watch season 1 of "Lie to me". Great stuff. I am like Lightman. And watch the episode where one of his people explains that they don't "read" each other because it is not possible to work that closely together without some level of "thought" privacy. 

She felt pain. It was real. If anything she attempted so underplay how much it hurt. To the point I put a bible in her hand and quietly but firmly asked about the pain and finally got an admission as to the level of pain. 

I believe the pain was largely caused by a lack of desire and the resulting lack of lubrication. 

And I think my lower availability higher sex ranking has re-ignited her desire. So I believe the pain was real, and the lack of pain is equally real. 

I also think that I was finally able to convince her that my views on marital sex are not as simplistic as she thought. 

From my point: Lack of lust/raw desire leading to indifference to your partners satisfaction level with marital sex is a total non-starter. I am very kind/considerate and concerned for her happiness and well being by not being demanding when her desire is low. I expect her to respond in kind and she does. 

Physical pain/illness is a 100 percent different situation. I took vows. I made promises. The people of the book were very wise. "In sickness" means just that. 














eagleclaw said:


> That's interesting, mine still has it. Unexplained and varies as to it's intensity. MEM, are you suggesting it was real pain that has gone away just as mysteriously as it started, or something else that seemed to pass as she was more "interested"?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

eagleclaw said:


> That's interesting, mine still has it. Unexplained and varies as to it's intensity. MEM, are you suggesting it was real pain that has gone away just as mysteriously as it started, or something else that seemed to pass as she was more "interested"?


Eagle,

Has your wife been evaluated for endometriosis?


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## eagleclaw (Sep 20, 2010)

Conrad, 

Funny you should say that. She has it when she was a young women, had two surgeries because of it. When we were much younger our dr had said having kids is one of the best treatments for it. And it was. Our kids are now 9 and 7 and she really hasn't had any problems until this year. We had wondered about it possibly being the problem and reappearing. So far, that's her only symptom.

Just recently she has had a tough go at work with a new manager who has been riding her constantly. He wants her to quit. She is now on stress leave and the Dr and her feel she is clinically depressed. So she is now taking an SSRI anti depressent. Yes I know the side effects and I am not happy about it. I am actually going in to see our dr today. I'm hoping maybe there is some alternatives. But at the end of the day she needs this, then she needs it. I'm just hoping it's short term. Course the point in mentioning all of this is maybe the pain, or loss of desire etc is all realated. This is a very new turn of events so it's still unfolding.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Endometriosis can come back.

Keep an eye on it.


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## OhGeesh (Jan 5, 2010)

Congrats!! I can't relate in the slightest, but the end result is the same so kudos!!


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MEM11363 said:


> So she showers and I shower - our normal routine. And then I come into the bedroom and she asks me to get her this book she is reading. Thanks to BBW - aka the Wolf - I immediately recognize this for what it is - her desire for friction.
> 
> So I just give her this flat affect and say 'no'. I get on the bed and she continues to repeat her request for her book giving me this mischevious smile. I keep the flat affect and tell her to stop. She persists as I I get more and more physically aggressive. Then I rip her towel off. And 10 minutes later she is hitting the rapture HARD and I am quietly smiling inside.
> 
> ...


Reading this is great, it really is, THIS is the right way to be  ....but it also makes me very sad, because I know had my husband ACTED THIS WAY in our past, our sex life would have been SO MUCH MORE.  I was forever into books, reading in bed & even though he wanted me, if I didn't give him some OVERT inviting sign, he (at least half the time) would just turn over, he would never get fiesty LIKE THIS & take me down. 

I believe it was what I NEEDED all along, but just didn't know, having not been handled aggressively before. I know I would have loved this. 

Oh well, water under the bridge.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Reading this is great, it really is, THIS is the right way to be  ....but it also makes me very sad, because I know had my husband ACTED THIS WAY in our past, our sex life would have been SO MUCH MORE.  I was forever into books, reading in bed & even though he wanted me, if I didn't give him some OVERT inviting sign, he (at least half the time) would just turn over, he would never get fiesty LIKE THIS & take me down.
> 
> I believe it was what I NEEDED all along, but just didn't know, having not been handled aggressively before. I know I would have loved this.
> 
> Oh well, water under the bridge.


In the words of Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones:

"_You can't always get what you want
But if you try sometimes you just might find
You just might find
You get what you need_"


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SA,
I did not understand ANY of this up until 5 years ago. Not the "ignition" stuff. I learned the more aggressive sexual things in the first few years because she patiently taught me. 

But as to this type of foreplay - 17 years of ignorance, 5 years of growing skill. 






SimplyAmorous said:


> Reading this is great, it really is, THIS is the right way to be  ....but it also makes me very sad, because I know had my husband ACTED THIS WAY in our past, our sex life would have been SO MUCH MORE.  I was forever into books, reading in bed & even though he wanted me, if I didn't give him some OVERT inviting sign, he (at least half the time) would just turn over, he would never get fiesty LIKE THIS & take me down.
> 
> I believe it was what I NEEDED all along, but just didn't know, having not been handled aggressively before. I know I would have loved this.
> 
> Oh well, water under the bridge.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM one thing that may help with pain or irritation is vaginal estrogen tablets. The vaginal mucosa gets thin as estrogen concentration decreases causing dryness and pain. Local estrogen therapy maintains the thickness of the vaginal mucosa and alleviates painful intercourse. Estrogen cream on the perineal area in addition to the tabs help as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Catherine602 said:


> MEM one thing that may help with pain or irritation is vaginal estrogen tablets. The vaginal mucosa gets thin as estrogen concentration decreases causing dryness and pain. Local estrogen therapy maintains the thickness of the vaginal mucosa and alleviates painful intercourse. Estrogen cream on the perineal area in addition to the tabs help as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I didn't know you were in healthcare.

Well done.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

Conrad said:


> I didn't know you were in healthcare.
> 
> Well done.


Yes - I don't want to reveal too much but, I treat patients, do research and teach.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

She tried the estrogen cream and it didn't seem to help.




Catherine602 said:


> Yes - I don't want to reveal too much but, I treat patients, do research and teach.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

MEM it's not unusual for the first line agents, lubricants or estrogen creams will not work. That's why the 2nd line agents are recommended until the right combination is found to be effective. There are two estrogen cream preparations, tablets and estrogen ring of various concentration. Her phycisian should try different agents and combinations until one works. 

Your wife must be persistent. Seeing the physician armed with the latest research is always advisable. Here is a link to the latest practice guidelines for the treatment of vaginal athrphy. (cant get link to work have to copy / past) http://www2.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab001500.html Practice guildlines are suggested approaches that the phicician should follow unless there is a compeling reason not to do so. 

They are based on excellent scientific evidence that clealy support the efficacy of the recommended therapy. 

They are called Cochrane Reviews and there is a Cochrane library site with all of the studies in detail. The synopsis is usually plain enough. I hope this helps. Be persistent, the right therapy is out there but it may take repeated visits to find it. (7/28 - fix bad link & spelling corrected).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Quoted for Truth



Catherine602 said:


> MEM it's not unusual for the first line agents, lubricants or estrogen creams will not work. That's why the 2nd line agents are recommended until the right combination is found to be effective. There are two estrogen cream preparations, tablets and estrogen ring of various concentration. Her phycisian should try different agents and combinations until one works.
> 
> Your wife must be persistent. Seeing the physician armed with the latest research is always advisable. Here is a link to the latest practice guidelines for the treatment of vaginal athrphy. Medscape: Medscape Access. Practice guildlines are suggested approaches that the phicician should follow unless there is a compeling reason not to do so.
> 
> ...


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