# 1st time in 6 weeks...



## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

My last two posts...
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/417489-romantic-getaway-disappointment.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/394658-stupid-stuff-she-says.html

I'm frustrated. I'm confused. I can't tell whether I'm gas-lighting my wife or whether she's gas-lighting me. I need to vent and maybe I need some advice. 

After our romantic getaway, I told my wife I was going to stop initiating. So I did. This went on for a month with no sex talk at all. I also threw away all of our sex toys, and she noticed. She asked why. I said we weren't using them. 

Then, out of the blue, my wife says "My period is over, just saying." I stuck to my guns and nothing came of it. A week after, she called me while I was at work and offered me oral sex. I was kind of excited. This was it! She initiated. This seemed to be the first opportunity to crack out of our slump. Well, I went home and nothing happened. There was no more mention of it. I guess I should have anticipated that, but this was the first time she's ever verbally offered something like that. So, back to not initiating. A few days later, she sends me a suggestive picture via text. Of course, when I got home my son was sick and vomiting, so nothing happened. I mean I would have been fine with it, but she wasn't into it. 

About a week ago we were having the sex talk. I mentioned our romantic getaway and my disappointment. I mentioned that she never even put on her lingerie for me. A few minutes later, I get a picture of her in her lingerie. I responded that I still think she's sexy. Then, when I got home, I walked over to her and kissed her on her neck and said thank you for the photo. She immediately got really defensive and said the lingerie didn't fit, but she put it on and did it for me because that's what I wanted. I didn't ask her to put it on. I just mentioned that she hadn't put it on in a long time. But, I could tell by her response, it wasn't going to evolve into any sort of intimacy. So I dropped it. 

Skip to yesterday. Again I get some photos sent to me. I responded with a drooling mouthed emoji. Then said I wish "I was there for a better view." Her response was that "she'll give me more then a view." In the back of my mind, this is the first real opportunity to imporve things in a month. I was optimistic. So I went home from work. I got the kids into bed. So, kids in bed, and we're making small talk. Nothing specific, just chatting. Time is passing, and I'm wondering if maybe nothing is going to happen. Then she looks at me and says, "Oh... You wanted to snuggle." Then she says she's going out to smoke a cigarette. This was 9:30pm. At 10:15, I'm getting tired, and figured nothing is going to happen, so I close my eyes and begin to fall asleep. My phone beeps and it's a text from her... "Yo... I'm smoking a cigarette." So I woke up and waited another 10m. Then I decided to go outside and smoke a cigarette. Figured I'd make sure she knew I was awake. I smoked my cigarette and came back in. 

After another 5m or so, she comes in with no pants on. She lays on the sofa with me. We kiss a bit. I'm rubbing her back and legs. Trying to have some foreplay. I wasn't really looking for a quickie. It has been a while. So I wanted to take her shirt off. I asked her to get on top for a second to make it easier to get it off. I wasn't planning on having her be on top for long, because I know she doens't like it. But she proceeded to begin putting me inside of her. For whatever reason, I said to her something like don't put it in so quick, or just leave it there for now. My thinking was more foreplay, or something. She kind of rolled her eyes, so I said, "OK, put it in." So we're having sex for a couple of minutes, and it's starting to feel good. I closed my eyes. I don't know why. She said "your eyes are closed". So I opened my eyes. She says, well now your eyes are open. So another minute passes. It's starting to feel good again. All of a sudden, she stops abruptly and says "You know, I'm tired and hungry". So I'm thrown. What am I supposed to say? A few options popped into my head. "Get the **** off me", "Don't worry, I'll finish in the bathroom", but... It's been a while and I knew if I said the wrong thing, it would be a big setback. So I said "why would you say something so stupid?" She said that my comment about not putting it in was stupid. So I'm thinking it's over when she says, lets rewind 2m. I guess we did, and within a few minutes we finished.

This morning I texted her and asked "What went wrong last night?" Her response was that she puttered too long and got tired, but also that she felt pressured. After my comment about leaving it, she got turned off. Then she got uncomfortable because she thought I'd comment negatively about it. I'm not exactly sure what she was afraid of me commenting on. Because up until she made the comment, I thought it was mostly going ok. Maybe she was talking about my eyes being closed, but I'm not sure. I feel like I closed my eyes to enjoy it. Not to dream about some other woman or anything like that. 
So this morning, we're arguing over it. 

I"m kind of pissed that she couldn't go 5 minutes without making a negative comment. I'm trying not to talk to her so much because I'll say things that could make it worse. But, she wants to talk. I did say something like maybe your next husband will understand. Now, I'm just in a funk and don't know what to do. Please tell me I'm wrong or right. Not sure what I'm looking for here. You can see from my past post, she always manages to say stupid things at the wrong time. I have brought this up with her before. I'm at a loss. What do you guys and gals think?


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## As'laDain (Nov 27, 2011)

i think you need to STOP being so damned passive when it comes to sex...


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

As'laDain said:


> i think you need to STOP being so damned passive when it comes to sex...


So... If you were in my shoes, what would you say/do?


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Sex lives have a way of going downhill quickly unless someone initiates. I would just take the bull by the horns, and initiate. I'm not sure what your wife is like, but I know that I like it when my man takes charge in the bedroom. Granted, he likes that from me as well! Have you sat your wife down and had a really good chat with her? Tell her how you're feeling, what you need from her. She may not realize how bad of a situation this could be in the future.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

I think at this point you both really need to find a marriage counselor that will help figure out why there is a such a gap in communication. She's clearly not telling you what's really going on in her head and it's honestly very unfair of her to assume that you would just know at any given point what she's thinking or feeling. You sound like you don't really know how to proceed anymore because of the constant back and forth, and really this is only going to increase the chances of irreparable resentment on both ends of this. 

It also honestly sounds like she could be dealing with a lot of potential self-deprecating inner dialogue that she's taking out on you. As much as she would like to appear to making an effort, she is also withholding a lot and expecting you to just carry the rest of the effort without ever giving you an idea of what she truly wants. It seems like there is also a tendency on her end to self-sabotage and I'm not sure if that is rooted in her background in the partnership or if it's tied to something deeper like depression or anxiety. But if there is any level of her relationship with you that she genuinely hopes to salvage, then she should be willing to go with you to find someone who will help crack this tension. Otherwise the relationship will wallow in stagnation and that only ever leads to emotional rot, frustration and bitterness. 

I wish you both luck, this seems like a very painful position to be in from both perspectives.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

Man...you didn't listen to a word of advice from the other posts so not sure you will here either. Your wife is just begging you to stop being such a beta wimp. She's clearly sexual however it's required that you be (or pretend to be) the man here. Man up. Some women (many in fact) want their men to initiate. They want you to just grab them away and take it. They don't want to think about it. They want a bit (or a lot) of dominance. They want you to be bold. They get turned on by your desire in them. Accept this as reality and embrace it.

You want to be wanted and desired but you don't realize that your approach with your wife simply won't work. It's never going to be how you want it, but it can be extremely good and satisfying (better even). Stop talking to her so much about this. It's a complete desire killer. Check out Married Red Pill - perfect prescription for you...


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## Ursula (Dec 2, 2016)

Ursula said:


> Sex lives have a way of going downhill quickly unless someone initiates. I would just take the bull by the horns, and initiate. I'm not sure what your wife is like, but I know that I like it when my man takes charge in the bedroom. Granted, he likes that from me as well! Have you sat your wife down and had a really good chat with her? Tell her how you're feeling, what you need from her. She may not realize how bad of a situation this could be in the future.


Can I quote myself? I read your other posts (the first ones in each thread), and yeah, you have tried to talk to her. I'm really sorry that you're here and dealing with this; it really sucks. I know what you're going through, as my STBXH and I had pretty major problems in the bedroom too. For some, it would probably get better; for others, not so much. I think it depends on the couple, and how committed they are to making it work. It sounds like you've been asking for changes in your sex life for a long time.


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## Noble1 (Oct 25, 2013)

The next time your wife sends you a racy pic or offers sexual favour, if there is a next time, don't wait for her to follow up on it.

Outright tell her you are there to collect now. Your wife puts on lingerie and promises more - you get home and tell her you want to see it on her and provide the more.

Your wife offers 'something' - the next time you see her tell her you are ready to collect on the offer.

Take charge of your own sex life.

Yes it totally sucks in a bad way when you initiate and your wife turns you down - been there done that and still here - but do what you can to change your sex life for you.

Good luck.


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## Mywifecanhelp (May 16, 2018)

Just initiate.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

This sounds so VERY familiar. 

My wife fairly frequently talks / hints about the sex that we will have in the *future* but when the future comes, nothing happens. My best model is that when she says it she really means it, but when the time comes, she doesn't feel any sense of desire, and so comes up with an excuse - or maybe more accurately an attempt to describe what she feels, but doesn't understand. 

We just spent 2 weeks in a romantic location. Before she had talked about how romantic it was, and implied that there would be lots of time for cuddling / sex. Of course once we were there, nothing happened. I've learned not to try to initiate (I kept track and when she turned me down every single time for a year, I have stopped, and will not do so again).

I've come to hate romantic vacations and will veto them in the future. Watching other happy affectionate couples is just miserable. Future vacations will be active - hiking , kayaking etc, not romantic. 


We haven't had intercourse in over a year and on a few attempts it has become painful for her. She went out of her way to talk to a doctor, and when we discuss she agrees that if we worked up to sex with small toys etc frequently, it would probably be fine. Lots of discussion, looking for lubricants, moisturizers etc. After all that, she made one attempt (whit a small toy which went fine), then nothing. 

Last time we did sexual things, I made it all about her. She was so worn out afterwards that she wasn't up to doing anything for me - but promised something special the next day. Needless to say, nothing happened - but a promise for the following day. Nothing happened then .


My approach these days:
Never ask for or initiate sex. That is certain to be turned down. 
Ignore an hints or promises of future sex. 

Recognize that sexual activity will be between 3 and 5 on Sundays in our bedroom, after chores are done, and if we are not busy with anything else (about 50% of the time). Despite her words, there are virtually no exceptions to this (1/year). 


Leave, cheat, live like a monk. 
Choose wisely.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> Then, out of the blue, my wife says "My period is over, just saying." I stuck to my guns and nothing came of it.


What do you mean, stuck to your guns? She initiated, and you rejected her. Initiation is rarely as bold as someone grabbing you or saying "let's...." People prefer to be subtle when initiating.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

So I agree that I'm acting passive. But, that doesn't mean that I hadn't been assertive in the past. The problem is that when I'm assertive, she says things like "sex isn't that important" or points to articles about how some people are perfectly fine with not having frequent sex. There were a few times I had tried to be a bit more assertive in my advances. To me it felt like I was being demanding. For her, it felt like I was being demeaning. 

So, in one of the conversations I tried to have with her, I asked her about her fantasies. She said she doesn't have any. I do masterbate frequently. It's the only thing that keeps me sane. 

If my wife appreciated me writing her erotic stories, I'd send her one daily. She gets mad when I send her a suggestive text while she's out shopping.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

DustyDog said:


> What do you mean, stuck to your guns? She initiated, and you rejected her. Initiation is rarely as bold as someone grabbing you or saying "let's...." People prefer to be subtle when initiating.


Wow. I feel like that would be the same thing as me saying to my wife, "You know, I haven't cum in a month. Just sayin". I know they say it doens't take much to turn men on, but her comment turned me off.


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## Mywifecanhelp (May 16, 2018)

Your getting hung up in the power struggle. You'll have more sex if you initiate. Treat her well don't be pissy and initiate, and take the hint when she initiates.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

DustyDog said:


> What do you mean, stuck to your guns? She initiated, and you rejected her. Initiation is rarely as bold as someone grabbing you or saying "let's...." People prefer to be subtle when initiating.


_Some_ people might prefer subtlety. Honestly her attempt to "initiate" in that instance would have come across as passive aggressive to me as a partner. I can understand if she's getting frustrated and resorts to dropping subtle hints (even if it is drenched in cynicism) but it sounds like she isn't trying to approach it from a different angle either. 

She's clearly not happy with the situation but she isn't doing anything proactive, just half-assed at best and shows, at least from her husband's perspective in these posts, that she isn't sharing her true thoughts and feelings about it. She can't expect him to understand where she is coming from if she is dodging all opportunities to be open and honest. It comes across as hesitant, even lackadaisical which isn't going to help solve, let alone communicate, anything.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> _Some_ people might prefer subtlety. Honestly her attempt to "initiate" in that instance would have come across as passive aggressive to me as a partner. I can understand if she's getting frustrated and resorts to dropping subtle hints (even if it is drenched in cynicism) but it sounds like she isn't trying to approach it from a different angle either.


Sounds like she's just awkward and clumsy about it more than anything. Fair or unfair I think it's pretty clear that she doesn't want that responsibility. The cynicism there is probably the resentment she feels for having to prod her man to act like one. She's dropping hints left and right for the kind of man that she wants her husband to be. He's too stuck in his own head to realize or do anything about it. As-is they are at a stalemate. Unless he learns to accept things how they are there's not much hope. Talking about this (again - something they've done many times from other threads posted) will get him precisely nowhere (again).


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

BigDigg said:


> Sounds like she's just awkward and clumsy about it more than anything. Fair or unfair I think it's pretty clear that she doesn't want that responsibility. The cynicism there is probably the resentment she feels for having to prod her man to act like one. She's dropping hints left and right for the kind of man that she wants her husband to be. He's too stuck in his own head to realize or do anything about it. As-is they are at a stalemate. Unless he learns to accept things how they are there's not much hope. Talking about this (again - something they've done many times from other threads posted) will get him precisely nowhere (again).


That's one of the reasons why I think they need to meet with a counselor, neither are capable of telling the other person what they want. A third party might be able to suss out where the disconnect is between them and how to develop better communicative skills regarding their sexual needs. 

And I've never understood the notion of "dropping hints left and right." If someone wants something bad enough, they should be able to say it. Dropping hints leaves way too much to chance and interpretation which ultimately serves no one in this scenario. He may not be the husband or sexual partner she needs him to be, but she isn't doing herself any favors by helping cultivate the dynamic they're currently stuck in. They're both responsible for letting it get this far, and if they both want to fix it, then they should do it as a team effort, not one-sided and certainly not with anyone dragging their feet which they're both doing in their own way.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> My last two posts...
> 
> Skip to yesterday. Again I get some photos sent to me. I responded with a drooling mouthed emoji. Then said I wish "I was there for a better view." Her response was that "she'll give me more then a view." In the back of my mind, this is the first real opportunity to imporve things in a month. I was optimistic. So I went home from work. I got the kids into bed. So, kids in bed, and we're making small talk. Nothing specific, just chatting.


Right here - right then, is where my husband would say "So, about that view..." and pounced on me. Or I'd flash him with a bit of lace. Something, anything to get it going. Even if I wanted a few minutes to relax after the kids went to bed, there would be some sort of tension in the air.

It's a dropped ball. You guys don't have an established pattern of sexual communication or flirting so a bunch of really awkward stuff happens until you get frustrated. 

In this specific scenario, after I'd texted my husband that I'd give him more than a view and after kids are in bed, house is tidy he sat down and small talked- I'd assume he wasn't really that into our texting earlier.




> After another 5m or so, she comes in with no pants on. She lays on the sofa with me. We kiss a bit. I'm rubbing her back and legs. Trying to have some foreplay. I wasn't really looking for a quickie. It has been a while. So I wanted to take her shirt off. I asked her to get on top for a second to make it easier to get it off. I wasn't planning on having her be on top for long, because I know she doens't like it. But she proceeded to begin putting me inside of her. For whatever reason, I said to her something like don't put it in so quick, or just leave it there for now. My thinking was more foreplay, or something. She kind of rolled her eyes, so I said, "OK, put it in." So we're having sex for a couple of minutes, and it's starting to feel good. I closed my eyes. I don't know why. She said "your eyes are closed". So I opened my eyes. She says, well now your eyes are open. So another minute passes. It's starting to feel good again. All of a sudden, she stops abruptly and says "You know, I'm tired and hungry". So I'm thrown. What am I supposed to say? A few options popped into my head. "Get the **** off me", "Don't worry, I'll finish in the bathroom", but... It's been a while and I knew if I said the wrong thing, it would be a big setback. So I said "why would you say something so stupid?" She said that my comment about not putting it in was stupid. So I'm thinking it's over when she says, lets rewind 2m. I guess we did, and within a few minutes we finished.


More awkward communication.

a) What words/actions did you say to indicate you didn't want a quickie?

b) " My thinking was more foreplay, or something" Why didn't you say those exact words?

c) You are arguing WHILE having sex? Holy bananas. Stop immediately and talk.

I see that there is passivity on your end which may be because of prolonged rejection but at some point, you have to be more blunt with your words so the actions are black and white and clear to decipher. No mind-reading or feeling assumptions are needed when you are straight forward.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

@ButWeAreStrange Oh - totally agree that she's not being helpful here and hurting her own cause as well as alienating her husband. However she *is *communicating to him plenty. He's just not willing or capable of listening. 

A marriage counselor might be able to help but at what cost? Can't believe she'll respect him any more for that. She wants a guy who just "gets it" and he clearly doesn't. OP wants to feel desired and validated but doesn't seem willing or capable of doing the things that will generate that desire to begin with.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

lessthennone said:


> My last two posts...
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/417489-romantic-getaway-disappointment.html
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/394658-stupid-stuff-she-says.html
> 
> ...


Dude, I don't even know how to respond to this... has your sex life always been this dysfunctional?

I just think she is scared of you divorcing her, but really she just does not want to have sex with you at all. 

People that are in love, and people that enjoy sex, don't act this way...


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

BigDigg said:


> Sounds like she's just awkward and clumsy about it more than anything. Fair or unfair I think it's pretty clear that she doesn't want that responsibility. The cynicism there is probably the resentment she feels for having to prod her man to act like one. She's dropping hints left and right for the kind of man that she wants her husband to be. He's too stuck in his own head to realize or do anything about it. As-is they are at a stalemate. Unless he learns to accept things how they are there's not much hope. Talking about this (again - something they've done many times from other threads posted) will get him precisely nowhere (again).


I don't believe she wants that responsibility. But in the past, initiating for me got vanilla sex and the request that I get it over with quickly. I'm sure that I could get more sex by initiating. What I want is better sex. 

And dropping hints left and right... She mentioned it three times in 6 weeks. The first time, I brought it up and she rejected me. The second time, I dind't bring it up and nothing happened. This time, I kept my mount shut long enough to get my penis in her vagina. Unfortunately, I also shut my eyes. She's saying that's what turned her off.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> Right here - right then, is where my husband would say "So, about that view..." and pounced on me. Or I'd flash him with a bit of lace. Something, anything to get it going. Even if I wanted a few minutes to relax after the kids went to bed, there would be some sort of tension in the air.
> 
> It's a dropped ball. You guys don't have an established pattern of sexual communication or flirting so a bunch of really awkward stuff happens until you get frustrated.
> 
> ...


a) To be honest, the thought that she wanted/expected a quickie hadn't occurred to me. Mostly because of the earlier flirting. That said, she always wants a quickie. If I make a comment about making it last, she gets confused. She doesn't understand the point of drawing it out. 

b) The eyes closed thing.. It happened so fast and took me by surprise. Once she said it, I opened my eyes and then she said "they're open now". And it was over. It wasn't until we discussed it afterwards that I realized it had turned her off. 

c) No. Actually, I think I did an OK job of avoiding an argument and she did a good job of getting past it by saying rewind 2m. But, I was close to saying "thanks, no thanks." Why do I feel like others may have said exactly that?

Now, in chatting with my wife, she said that she didn't realize I was waiting for her. After I got home from work, she got tired and hungry. Where earlier in the day, she was more up to it, I think it wore off. She didn't give me any indication before that it had, but that's what she said. Specifically that she puttered too long and got tired.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

BigDigg said:


> @ButWeAreStrange Oh - totally agree that she's not being helpful here and hurting her own cause as well as alienating her husband. However she *is *communicating to him plenty. He's just not willing or capable of listening.
> 
> A marriage counselor might be able to help but at what cost? Can't believe she'll respect him any more for that. She wants a guy who just "gets it" and he clearly doesn't. OP wants to feel desired and validated but doesn't seem willing or capable of doing the things that will generate that desire to begin with.


From OP's posts I've gotten more the impression that she's actually very low drive and is only "resorting" to sex if it keeps the marriage going. Granted there could be a lot on her side of the things that are not being shared either because she isn't expressing it openly or OP isn't recognizing it, but from what he has shared here it just sounds like she isn't all that into sex. If she is and just simply isn't getting what she wants, it's her responsibility to be open and try different avenues of communication. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is nonsensical. 

I think romance novels and movies have painted a very dysfunctional picture of passive partners magically getting their needs met by practically communicating telepathically. Not everyone is inherently intuitive and so it's up to the individual to understand what they need and be able to speak up for themselves. I get that it isn't necessarily "sexy," but once a true understanding is met (usually through a lot of very blunt communication), it can become organic and turn into spontaneity over time and practice. 

And if she views him as lesser of a man if he tries for counseling then she needs to re-evaulate the significance of their marriage. No one should ever see a partner as lesser for fighting to strengthen their bond and overcome hurdles in the relationship. That honestly would say more about her than about him.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

I did specifically ask my wife a couple things. Trying to see if she's looking for an alpha male. 

So I gave her a hypothetical... What if I came home and said "Go upstairs, put on your lingerie, then come down and give me the best BJ of my life." I asked her how she would respond. She said negatively because it seemed like I was demanding. 

Then I asked how she would react if I had come home and said "I'm ready to cash in on your offer". Her immediate concern was that we may have guests at home. I told her it was hypothetical and there were no guests. She said she didn't know how she would respond. Now, I'm willing to try that line. But, I expect she would feel like I was being pushy. I mean I do know her and I know what hasn't worked in the past. But, I do like the line. I plan on using it. 

Now, the situation I've been trying to get out of is her requesting a rain check every time I do initiate. I was at about a 66% rejection rate. And when accepted, a quickie was requested.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

OP,

I think one of the first things you and your wife need to do is sit down and have a true heart to heart talk about what your individual desires and needs are. No passivity, no subtlety, but true openness and honesty. Clearly there's a major disconnect in how you each relate to and recognize each other's arousal, and that might be a good place to start. She doesn't seem to understand when you're waiting and you don't seem to understand when she's willing. Everyone has their own way of communicating interest and desire in sexual intimacy, and it might be that you both need to compromise and adjust how to project those feelings with more clarity. 

It isn't going to be smooth running at first, but patience, trial and error and a joint determination to understand each other should be the driving force behind both of your actions at this point. This needs to be a team effort because you are both participating in self-destructive behavior and neither of you likely intend for that. At the end of the day it isn't about you hurting or her hurting, it's about your marriage hurting, and that should be a shared concern that sparks empathy and compassion for one another.


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

lessthennone said:


> I did specifically ask my wife a couple things. Trying to see if she's looking for an alpha male.
> 
> So I gave her a hypothetical... What if I came home and said "Go upstairs, put on your lingerie, then come down and give me the best BJ of my life." I asked her how she would respond. She said negatively because it seemed like I was demanding.
> 
> ...


I think you have something that can be saved. She did try...half assed but she is willing to try. I don't have the credentials to give you solid advice so consider that when reading the rest. It sounds to me that you guys have a huge communication issue. You guys probably need some professional help to bridge that gap and to learn how to talk about this. I would want to know if she likes sex, if she'd like to have it with me, what does a great sexual encounter with me look like from her point of view, does she find me attractive and how much sex would be the right amount to HER. I'd start there. You want her and she tried to initiate......that's huge. I hope the best for you guys.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

BigDigg said:


> @ButWeAreStrange Oh - totally agree that she's not being helpful here and hurting her own cause as well as alienating her husband. However she *is *communicating to him plenty. He's just not willing or capable of listening.
> 
> A marriage counselor might be able to help but at what cost? Can't believe she'll respect him any more for that. She wants a guy who just "gets it" and he clearly doesn't. OP wants to feel desired and validated but doesn't seem willing or capable of doing the things that will generate that desire to begin with.


Here's what she's communicated to me. During the day, she doesn't have distractions and was able to me some sexy pictures. She knows that I've asked for them and I appreciated them. But, by the time I get home from work and put the kids in bed, she's too tired to think about sex. She just wants eat and go to bed. 

Now, If I send her something sexy during the day, she's upset because she's got stuff going on. Shopping or whatever. She cant just turn it off and respond sexy to me. 

I get major mixed signals when it comes to foreplay, oral sex or the length of our exploits. Foreplay... "Why delay". Oral... "Why when we could just have sex". Length... "Why is it not working?"


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> From OP's posts I've gotten more the impression that she's actually very low drive and is only "resorting" to sex if it keeps the marriage going. Granted there could be a lot on her side of the things that are not being shared either because she isn't expressing it openly or OP isn't recognizing it, but from what he has shared here it just sounds like she isn't all that into sex. If she is and just simply isn't getting what she wants, it's her responsibility to be open and try different avenues of communication. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is nonsensical.
> 
> I think romance novels and movies have painted a very dysfunctional picture of passive partners magically getting their needs met by practically communicating telepathically. Not everyone is inherently intuitive and so it's up to the individual to understand what they need and be able to speak up for themselves. I get that it isn't necessarily "sexy," but once a true understanding is met (usually through a lot of very blunt communication), it can become organic and turn into spontaneity over time and practice.
> 
> And if she views him as lesser of a man if he tries for counseling then she needs to re-evaulate the significance of their marriage. No one should ever see a partner as lesser for fighting to strengthen their bond and overcome hurdles in the relationship. That honestly would say more about her than about him.


I kind of agree with this, but at the same time, in a lot of ways he has tried to communicate with her, and has been way more patient than I ever would have been. 

On the other hand, I also would not deal with the awkward dysfunctional duty sex either, so I guess I would have already divorced in this situation. 



lessthennone said:


> I did specifically ask my wife a couple things. Trying to see if she's looking for an alpha male.
> 
> So I gave her a hypothetical... What if I came home and said "Go upstairs, put on your lingerie, then come down and give me the best BJ of my life." I asked her how she would respond. She said negatively because it seemed like I was demanding.
> 
> ...


Brother, I don't want to be Debbie downer here, but honestly, I just think that she does not want to have sex with you. I don't know why, I don't know if she is kind of asexual, or super low drive, or if she does not really love you, or is she is just not attracted to you. 

I don't want to encourage divorce, I guess in some ways she is trying, but what do you have to do for her to want to have sex. 

You know when she was outside for so long, she was actively hoping that you would go to sleep and she did not have to have sex with you, you get that, right?


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

,


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

You say you know your wife but I'm not convinced, and the way you describe it is because she is being deliberately obtuse. I don't know if that is true or not or if the way you communicate leads to statements like



> Foreplay... "Why delay". Oral... "Why when we could just have sex". Length... "Why is it not working?


I'm saying more black and white communication because with all of those questions, the "why" is irrelevant. It's a Yes, I like foreplay or No, I don't. Yes, I like oral or No, I don't. The why is a distraction. When you have sex regularly without awkwardness, then you can get all up in the why.





> Then I asked how she would react if I had come home and said "I'm ready to cash in on your offer". Her immediate concern was that we may have guests at home. I told her it was hypothetical and there were no guests. She said she didn't know how she would respond. Now, I'm willing to try that line. But, I expect she would feel like I was being pushy. I mean I do know her and I know what hasn't worked in the past. But, I do like the line. I plan on using it.


Own it. Yes, I am being pushy. Give enough space for concrete, black and white answers (yes or no,) and go from there. I think a hard no might force you both into action but right now you are both playing the plausible denial game which is leading to awkwardness and poor communication.

If you can't get concrete yeses or noes, that is probably the biggest area of breakdown. That is the foundation of a relationship, you know?


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> You say you know your wife but I'm not convinced, and the way you describe it is because she is being deliberately obtuse. I don't know if that is true or not or if the way you communicate leads to statements like
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. I feel like she is being obtuse. Deliberately or not, I honestly don't know. Sometimes she doesn't put much effort into her excuse. That makes me certain that it's an excuse and not a true issue. For example saying I'm too tired, but then staying up for another 3 hours. 

The quotes are things she said. I like oral on me and her. I like foreplay. I like making it last longer. The "why" is her introducing a a statement of not understanding "why" I would enjoy the above. It's hard for me to put myself in the position of understanding.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> @lessthennone
> 
> 
> Your original post is cringeworthy. Has the emotional chemistry always been like this with you guys? Sorry, I haven't read your other threads.
> ...



Earlier on in our relationship, she was much more open. I was always the higher drive person, but it wasn't until after we had kids that it seems like I started getting excuses. Then the excuses started getting worse. Then they were as if she just wasn't trying.


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## ButWeAreStrange (Feb 2, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> I kind of agree with this, but at the same time, in a lot of ways he has tried to communicate with her, and has been way more patient than I ever would have been.
> 
> On the other hand, I also would not deal with the awkward dysfunctional duty sex either, so I guess I would have already divorced in this situation.


I was actually referring to her not trying to communicate with him. I think he's done quite a lot with very little reciprocation on her end which is leading me to believe that she's not telling him something that goes deeper than simply avoiding duty sex.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> Brother, I don't want to be Debbie downer here, but honestly, I just think that she does not want to have sex with you. I don't know why, I don't know if she is kind of asexual, or super low drive, or if she does not really love you, or is she is just not attracted to you.


Surprised by your take here a bit. What signs have we seen that she is low drive? In the Vacation Getaway thread she hinted a few times at sex beforehand and even asked (almost disappointed) what happened when it basically didn't happen. He talked it up ahead of the trip with her and then when the time came he ... passively waited for his wife to basically mount him (which she did not do). In this thread she's sending racy texts. She ACTUALLY DOES mount him. He fumbles on it. 

I totally agree that she's not attracted to her husband. More specifically she's not attracted to his approach and methods. Every post here is just dripping in Beta-isms. So much pointless verbal communication going on. So much ****hurt and resentment from the lack of success that all that talk brings. So little understanding of what his wife wants/needs, action and ownership over any of it. Just more of the same venting.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

BigDigg said:


> Surprised by your take here a bit. What signs have we seen that she is low drive? In the Vacation Getaway thread she hinted a few times at sex beforehand and even asked (almost disappointed) what happened when it basically didn't happen. He talked it up ahead of the trip with her and then when the time came he ... passively waited for his wife to basically mount him (which she did not do). In this thread she's sending racy texts. She ACTUALLY DOES mount him. He fumbles on it.
> 
> I totally agree that she's not attracted to her husband. More specifically she's not attracted to his approach and methods. Every post here is just dripping in Beta-isms. So much pointless verbal communication going on. So much ****hurt and resentment from the lack of success that all that talk brings. So little understanding of what his wife wants/needs, action and ownership over any of it. Just more of the same venting.


For our romantic getaway, I'm trying to remember when she brought up sex beforehand. During one of our conversations I said my fantasy would be to not leave the hotel room. I asked her to bring lingerie. I told her I was packing some sex toys. I asked her how many times she thought we were going to have sex. Her response was a handful. When we got there, I was ready, but she wanted to leave the room. Should I have said "No, were not leaving the room."? Probably. Would it have worked, maybe. It's also possible she would've resented it. But she did "mount me" once suring the weekend and I didn't turn her down. I will never turn down sex. If you think I have, then you've misread my posts. She sent me racy pics. I was ready for sex. She turned me down. Last night, I said yes. Then she got tired and hungry.

Please tell me how I fumbled. My wife says it was closing my eyes. 

But yes, you are correct, I do not understand what my wife needs or wants in this regards. I'll own my issues. Maybe this is my problem, but not my issue.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

,


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> How did her life begin to change after kids?
> 
> Does she work outside the home and look after kids? Or a SAHM?
> 
> ...


She is a SAHM. 

She had help syndrome with our first and depression with our second. 

She is on BC, I'm not sure which one. 

Finances are OK, but I'm in charge of them. She spends too much, but I don't make a big deal about it. 

Her big complaint is the kids, but I do help out a lot. We alternate taking them to school because she likes to be able to sleep late. But, she does go out with friends on girls nights. Not every week, but maybe every other. Also, there are times our friends want us to go out with them, but we cant due to kids. I'll often offer to stay at home so she can go out. 

My parents watch the kids about once a week so we can have a date night. Sometimes we go out. Sometimes we stay home. It never leads to intimacy. 

She wants more kids. I said no way.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

,


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

lessthennone said:


> My last two posts...
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/417489-romantic-getaway-disappointment.html
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/394658-stupid-stuff-she-says.html
> 
> ...


*Your W seems like a real conceited "prick-tease!"

Have you two ever considered sexual therapy?*


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I had to look up "help syndrome". Long story short, it said the only treatment was prompt delivery of the child. Though, I'd imagine that having a health complication like that during pregnancy, would have longer lasting emotional implications.
> 
> Did the depression after the second child resolve? Did she take anti-depressants? Does she still? They are renowned for lowering libido.
> 
> ...


Yes she was very social. I do feel like she resents the fact that she lost the ability to live freely like before we had kids. 

It is hormonal BC and she's on antidepressants. 

I really don't think it's the money. We have a relatively good standard of living, of course she does tend to want really expensive handbags. Short of me being unwilling to spend $5k on a purse, she gets nearly everything she wants.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

She is just too much work.......Not worth the effort......I don't think this will ever get fixed to anyone's satisfaction.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

We did go to therapy about 2-3 years ago. I made us go. We went for three sessions. $1700 prepaid. The first, we took a test. The second, we got the results to our test, and the therapist decided he was willing to help us. The week before the third session, we argued a lot. My wife was being extremely unreasonable. To the point where I knew all I would have to do is explain to the therapist what she said. I kept telling her to wait and we'll bring it up with the therapist. 

We walk into the therapist's office and he can see something is wrong. He says "What's wrong?" And as I'm about to tell him what she said, he cuts me off and says he doesn't want to rehash issues were having. He reasked the question in a way that prevented me from telling him what happened. I was kind of shocked. I had discussed the issue with other family members and they said if the therapist hears the story, he will absolutely see that I'm not being unreasonable and she was. So the session ends and he says "You still seem upset." I said I am you didn't let me tell you what happened. But at that point I was so done with this guy that I was already thinking up how I'd tell him that we wouldn't be back next week. When I called to tell him, I got his answering machine. It was an easy breakup. He actually sent me a letter asking me to send him a letter telling him what went wrong. 

There's a thread on here about my visits...
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/307266-good-first-step-forward.html


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

lessthennone said:


> For our romantic getaway, I'm trying to remember when she brought up sex beforehand. During one of our conversations I said my fantasy would be to not leave the hotel room. I asked her to bring lingerie. I told her I was packing some sex toys. I asked her how many times she thought we were going to have sex. Her response was a handful. When we got there, I was ready, but she wanted to leave the room. Should I have said "No, were not leaving the room."? Probably. Would it have worked, maybe. It's also possible she would've resented it. But she did "mount me" once suring the weekend and I didn't turn her down. I will never turn down sex. If you think I have, then you've misread my posts. She sent me racy pics. I was ready for sex. She turned me down. Last night, I said yes. Then she got tired and hungry.
> 
> Please tell me how I fumbled. My wife says it was closing my eyes.
> 
> But yes, you are correct, I do not understand what my wife needs or wants in this regards. I'll own my issues. Maybe this is my problem, but not my issue.


Yeah, I was thinking that maybe he did not read that first post in the other thread of something. 

I stand by what I said, she does not want to have sex with OP. She is not attracted to him in any way. 

He has not had sex for 6 weeks. I understand him wanting her to initiate and him wanting to have decent sex. 

She is not commutating at all, at least he I trying.

Also, I notice @lessthennone that you have not really responded to any of my posts, which is fine. But if you think I am too straight forward, or harsh, understand that I am just giving you the truth as I see it. 

Bottom line, as I see is, she is not attracted to you. She is too scared to be honest with you, because she does not want to lose her standard of living. 

She is half heartedly trying to have sex because she does not want to divorce. She wants her good little provider and she thinks that it is so cute that you want her to desire you.

Frankly, I think you are pissing in the wind. You have actively been working on this for how long, and she could not possibly be as clueless as she is acting. 

She just really does not care and the does not want to have sex with you, I think you need to understand that and act accordingly. Divorce her ASAP and find a new woman that actually wants to have sex with you because she doesn't...


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## OnTheFly (Mar 12, 2015)

BluesPower said:


> Yeah, I was thinking that maybe he did not read that first post in the other thread of something.
> 
> I stand by what I said, she does not want to have sex with OP. She is not attracted to him in any way.
> 
> ...


I agree with everything you said, up until the last sentence. If, and this is a big IF, he learns wife game, lifts some heavy weights, he has a chance to whet her panties. Go read some Chateau Heartiste, Rollo Tomassi, etc.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

OnTheFly said:


> I agree with everything you said, up until the last sentence. If, and this is a big IF, he learns wife game, lifts some heavy weights, he has a chance to whet her panties. Go read some Chateau Heartiste, Rollo Tomassi, etc.


Nope, sorry again. If she does not want to F*** him there is a reason. Either she has lost love or lost respect for him, and I don't know why, there is about a .001% chance of getting it back. 

Whether it is him, or her, it does not matter, he can talk until the cows come home, nothing will change. 

He is beating a dead horse. She is done, and she is not really trying that hard. 

I have divorced women for less than he is putting up with. I have actually been having sex with women, and sensed that she was not into it, or me, and I have got up and left the room, never to speak with her again. 

Here is the deal, if a women gets to this point, and decides you are not the one or it, then it is done.

It could be you, it could be her, and it does not matter. There are literally thousands of women out there in any large town, and one of them want to be with you more than she wants to be with her husband. 

He would be wise to end this now and stop putting up in this crap...


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

lessthennone said:


> Yes. I feel like *she is being obtuse*.


I'm genuinely trying to understand why you don't see _your_ behavior as the same? 



BluesPower said:


> Nope, sorry again. If she does not want to F*** him there is a reason. Either she has lost love or *lost respect* for him, and I don't know why, there is about a .001% chance of getting it back.


My marriage was much like lessthennone's - or it reads that way.

My ex-husband was very passive and either incapable or unwilling to initiate. But he was like that across the board. Are you that way too? 

Finances, parenting, sex, etc. Passive.

I mean, who knows the true motives behind someone's actions, unless they're willing to open up and fix the problem?

It sounds like you might, and if so, I think it'll take a huge amount of effort.

But BluesPower is right, once I was done, I was pretty much done. What nailed it was that he told me he wasn't going to promise that anything was going to change, and that he wanted to be accepted as he was.

I'm a traditionalist - I like men who lead. I need that quality to maintain my attraction and respect. And this was something I had to learn about myself. I didn't know how our dynamic would play out when we got married.

Maybe your wife wants a strong leader too?


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> My last two posts...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/417489-romantic-getaway-disappointment.html
> 
> ...




Man, this is so painful to read.

You really need to stop expecting her to do all the initiating. It doesn’t come natural to many women and the main problem is, it doesn’t seem to come natural to you even though she is giving you clear signs that she wants you to.

Why are men so much more able to initiate in the beginning of a relationship but then give up and expect sex to ‘just happen’ magically later on? Then mistake it for lack of desire and complain how ****ty their sex life has become?

If she texts you that she wants to blow you when you get home, you come home, take it out and put it in her mouth. It’s that simple. Some women like a more forceful attitude. Don’t mistake it for lack of desire or willingness. It’s the opposite! This is very important to understand.

If she sends you nude photos of her then it means she wants you to **** her; again you come home and instead of waiting for her to throw herself in you, YOU have to take initiative and **** her. Don’t putter around, smoke a cigarette or procrastinate in any other way. 
Either you are not horny enough or you don’t want her enough but your behaviour and passiveness is very damaging to your sexual dynamic.

Look, she will lose interest and start looking for someone more assertive otherwise. I don’t want to sound critical of you but you need to hear it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> Wow. I feel like that would be the same thing as me saying to my wife, "You know, I haven't cum in a month. Just sayin". I know they say it doens't take much to turn men on, but her comment turned me off.



Unfortunately there is a double standard there. And it’s perfectly normal.
If a woman says “we haven’t had sex in a month”, you take her right there and then. If you say, “we haven’t had sex in a month”, you don’t expect her to do the same: you still do everything in your power to have sex with her.

It’s just the way it is. It’s how it has always been.
Otherwise find a feminist or something.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> But in the past, initiating for me got vanilla sex...



See, right here is the problem. You don’t do some half-assed initiating then see ‘what you can get’. Initiating means taking it all the way: YOU decide and get what YOU WANT. The rest is irrelevant.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> a) To be honest, the thought that she wanted/expected a quickie hadn't occurred to me. Mostly because of the earlier flirting. That said, she always wants a quickie. If I make a comment about making it last, she gets confused. She doesn't understand the point of drawing it out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




She doesn’t want a “quickie”; she wants URGENT sex. There’s a big difference.
Also why on earth would you shut your eyes during sex? Are you losing your virginity?
If you can’t look into her eyes, turn her around on the bed, hold her head by her hair firmly and **** her hard. How difficult is it. Then she won’t see your closed eyes. 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> So I gave her a hypothetical... What if I came home and said "Go upstairs, put on your lingerie, then come down and give me the best BJ of my life."



I’m sorry to clutter up your thread but dude, this is still completely passive. You expect her to go upstairs, you expect her to put on lingerie, you expect her to give you a blowjob.
You don’t EXPECT her to do anything, YOU DO IT and you get it.

Even having this conversation with her is such a freaking turn off.



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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I read some of your other threads; maybe it’s the way you are describing it but it’s probably not as black and white on balance: she need to learn to make sex a priority but you also need to learn how to ‘seize the moment’ and be WAY more assertive.
By assertive I don’t mean more assertive in your expectations, but more assertive with your actions. If the woman can’t feel your raw desire for her, she will not be impressed or persuaded that you actually want it that much (on a primal level).

If watching porn together helped then why don’t you do it more often alongside porn?

Have you tried taking dirty to her? When we used to watch porn, I noticed it was more the dirty talk (and the cringe worthy lines) that actually turned my wife on more than the visual stuff. But she prefers if I talk dirty by far more than hearing it in porn.

What BC is she using?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Not sure the advice urging the OP to seize the moment will work. It certainly wouldn't hurt to try though. With that said my concern is that his wife pretty much is only into laying there during sex per the OP. She hasn't ever given him oral, and she only wants him on top. She just sounds like she really isn't that sexual, and never really has been. Doesn't sound like a bait and switch to me, sounds like he thought things would improve once he bought the cow. If he is unhappy with his sex life he will probably have to leave. She either just isn't all that sexual, or she just isn't really into him. Seems like even forcing it, would only get him the sane basic sex he has always gotten, which although better than nothing, isn't what he wants. The OP just wants normal everyday garden variety vanilla sex with oral sometimes and positions other than missionary. This isn't very hard to find. I think he has a choice to make. He needs to decide how important it is to him.


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## Txquail (Feb 21, 2018)

I would not live in a sexless marriage. Tell your wife if she doesn't want sex you feel undesired and you will not live you life like that. Either change or you'll think about a divorce.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

OK. I just want to point out that about a year ago, I was getting sex 1-2 times a week. But she wasn't into it. She would just lay there. At that time, I told her the quality has to improve. Actually had been telling her that for 5 years. When she made snarky comments about sex, or comments that just made me feel like she couldn't, wouldn't and didn't care to try, I withdrew. I stopped asking about a year ago. I'm sure that I could start asking and get the same vanilla sex a couple times a week. Probably get as many rainchecks. But I was really looking to have it spiced up. At a minimum, limit snarky comments during sex. Hey, it didn't work. I'll try something different. This morning I told her I planned on cashing in on the BJ she offered me tonight. We will see. I have had the exact same scenario fail on me in the past, but I'm trying. 

Am I obtuse, maybe. Maybe being more demanding and specific will improve it. Maybe it''ll make it worse. At least I'll know shortly.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

minimalME said:


> I'm genuinely trying to understand why you don't see _your_ behavior as the same?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm passive, but that doesn't mean I haven't been assertive in the past. 

For me it was when I asked my wife if she would prefer to never have sex again. She didn't say no. 

Why do I say she's obtuse? Because there is some "thing" that I just don't get. She hints, I get home, she asks for a raincheck. I can't make sense of it.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> I read some of your other threads; maybe it’s the way you are describing it but it’s probably not as black and white on balance: she need to learn to make sex a priority but you also need to learn how to ‘seize the moment’ and be WAY more assertive.
> By assertive I don’t mean more assertive in your expectations, but more assertive with your actions. If the woman can’t feel your raw desire for her, she will not be impressed or persuaded that you actually want it that much (on a primal level).
> 
> If watching porn together helped then why don’t you do it more often alongside porn?
> ...


Porn worked better then anything else we've tried. We had awesome sex. Best we've ever had together. When I suggest watching a movie, which I have many times, she says shes not feeling it. When I put it on without her asking, she says its a turnoff. I must have tried to replicate the good sex 20 times. I think it makes her feel disrespected. She implied somethingof the sort. Maybe she thinks I'm picturing the porn stars during sex. I'm just hoping she gets randy. 

Dirty talk is a delicate subject. Yes. I've spoken dirty to her. I've also suggested that she reciprocate, but I can tell it's unnatural for her. Shes also said "it's not her". She's not the dirty type.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

lessthennone said:


> Porn worked better then anything else we've tried. We had awesome sex. Best we've ever had together. When I suggest watching a movie, which I have many times, she says shes not feeling it. When I put it on without her asking, she says its a turnoff. I must have tried to replicate the good sex 20 times. I think it makes her feel disrespected. She implied somethingof the sort. Maybe she thinks I'm picturing the porn stars during sex. I'm just hoping she gets randy.
> 
> Dirty talk is a delicate subject. Yes. I've spoken dirty to her. I've also suggested that she reciprocate, but I can tell it's unnatural for her. Shes also said "it's not her". She's not the dirty type.


If "no talk, just do" does not work with her, then there is a decent chance nothing will work short of filing for divorce.

She may not have a yellow crayon in her Crayola box. If she only has purple and blue crayons, and you need yellow or at least orange or green to be happy, then you may be incompatible.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

lessthennone said:


> I was getting sex 1-2 times a week. But she wasn't into it. She would just lay there. At that time, I told her the quality has to improve.


I think at this point you understand that your wife isn't attracted to you right? Why do you think that is? Check your ego at the door and answer yourself (not me or the forum) honestly. Then make a plan to improve. The quality will improve when she is attracted to you again. Or maybe it never will because she's too far gone in which case just move on if this is deal breaker. You must come to accept the insanity of it all and your specific role/accountability...all the talking, begging, negotiating in the world can't make your wife desire you. You must become attractive to her. That is the only way.



lessthennone said:


> This morning I told her I planned on cashing in on the BJ she offered me tonight. We will see.


I mean...I don't even know where to start. This kind of interaction has and will defeat anything you're looking to build. You've turned this into a transactional thing where you beg your wife for kibbles. Is that a way to get her to respect you? How do you think she is processing your demand? Do you even want some lame BJ knowing your wife is probably getting ill in the head thinking about you while she performs the chore just to appease and get you to shut up with all the talking? I get that you're starving here now but there's probably 1000 of these events in your marriage past that have absolutely poisoned your relationship and brought it to this point. 



lessthennone said:


> Am I obtuse, maybe.


Clearly.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> OK. I just want to point out that about a year ago, I was getting sex 1-2 times a week. But she wasn't into it. She would just lay there. At that time, I told her the quality has to improve. Actually had been telling her that for 5 years.


Did you ask her how you can improve?


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

BigDigg said:


> I think at this point you understand that your wife isn't attracted to you right? Why do you think that is? Check your ego at the door and answer yourself (not me or the forum) honestly. Then make a plan to improve. The quality will improve when she is attracted to you again. Or maybe it never will because she's too far gone in which case just move on if this is deal breaker. You must come to accept the insanity of it all and your specific role/accountability...all the talking, begging, negotiating in the world can't make your wife desire you. You must become attractive to her. That is the only way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude... Your posts have been extremely unhelpful. You have given no specifics, just critiques of everything I've tried. You claim that I was not being assertive, then complain when I am assertive. You've gone from her "practically begging for it" to " being awkward" to "not being attracted to me". I'm just saying that you shouldn't critique with such authority when it seems you understand the issue less then the other posters in this thread. I need to read no more then you suggesting that she's not low drive. She is low drive. She hasn't begged for sex ever! Yet in your post, she's begging me for sex and I'm turning her down. That just isn't the reality of it.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> Did you ask her how you can improve?


According to her, date nights and romantic getaways. 

I'm a buck stops here type of guy. I run my own business. If something goes wrong, I look to what I've been doing wrong. There is something about our sex life that just isn't in my control. 

I also want to point out that I'm pretty fit. I'm not super buff, but I have a bicyclers physique. I'm not overweight and I play lots of sports. I wouldn't be worried about finding someone attracted to me.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> Porn worked better then anything else we've tried. We had awesome sex. Best we've ever had together. When I suggest watching a movie, which I have many times, she says shes not feeling it. When I put it on without her asking, she says its a turnoff. I must have tried to replicate the good sex 20 times. I think it makes her feel disrespected. She implied somethingof the sort. Maybe she thinks I'm picturing the porn stars during sex. I'm just hoping she gets randy.
> 
> Dirty talk is a delicate subject. Yes. I've spoken dirty to her. I've also suggested that she reciprocate, but I can tell it's unnatural for her. Shes also said "it's not her". She's not the dirty type.


Of course it's 'not her'. It's not anyone (unless you are a German, well-endowed plumber or a MILF whose boobs are about to explode). It's escapism and the whole point of role play...Don't be 'delicate' with it. 

Did you say what BC she is on? Any hormonal BC can impact sex drive significantly.

I think you just have to keep trying with the porn thing: tell her you need to find ways for you both to enjoy sex and ask her if she would watch porn since this is what has helped her in the past. Do it like a doctor's prescription: a few times a week.

There's no magic bullet. You just have to keep trying different things and also do some self-reflection from time to time.

it's hard to hit bulls eye with advice: because how you write things down can give out the wrong impression. Unfortunately that's the nature of forums.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

lessthennone said:


> I also want to point out that I'm pretty fit. I'm not super buff, but I have a bicyclers physique. I'm not overweight and I play lots of sports. I wouldn't be worried about finding someone attracted to me.


Right. 

My ex-husband was fit, no addictions, very helpful with the household, very well endowed. The passivity overrode all of that.




inmyprime said:


> There's no magic bullet.


I don't know. I think a dominant mindset is a pretty awesome magic bullet.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> According to her, date nights and romantic getaways.
> 
> I'm a buck stops here type of guy. I run my own business. If something goes wrong, I look to what I've been doing wrong. There is something about our sex life that just isn't in my control.
> 
> I also want to point out that I'm pretty fit. I'm not super buff, but I have a bicyclers physique. I'm not overweight and I play lots of sports. I wouldn't be worried about finding someone attracted to me.


I agree there is something that isn't in your control but that answer is also diversionary BS. You don't just lay there for two years and go "date nights!!" as the answer for sub-par sex. Any body issues on her end? Any pain mentioned? 

I know you are getting beat up on this but I really think it's so critical for men to know: stop having sex with your wife if she is not into it or half-assing it. It makes women feel like cum-dumpsters, even if they are doing it intentionally. It creates a bunch of bad associations with sex that are really, really hard to bust out of. You notice your wife is not into it and she won't verbalize what needs to change? Stop. Don't accept scraps. Don't accept "get it over withs," Some women are okay with enthusiastic duty sex and that is okay but reject the lazy starfish.

Porn is tricky, especially if you aren't in a good place sexually as it is. What she is saying is probably true- it was hot that one time but every other time and the fact that you are turning it on probably doesn't feel like a genuine connection.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Of course it's 'not her'. It's not anyone (unless you are a German, well-endowed plumber or a MILF whose boobs are about to explode). It's escapism and the whole point of role play...Don't be 'delicate' with it.
> 
> Did you say what BC she is on? Any hormonal BC can impact sex drive significantly.
> 
> ...


It is a hormonal BC. I'm considering a vasectomy.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> I agree there is something that isn't in your control but that answer is also diversionary BS. You don't just lay there for two years and go "date nights!!" as the answer for sub-par sex. Any body issues on her end? Any pain mentioned?
> 
> I know you are getting beat up on this but I really think it's so critical for men to know: stop having sex with your wife if she is not into it or half-assing it. It makes women feel like cum-dumpsters, even if they are doing it intentionally. It creates a bunch of bad associations with sex that are really, really hard to bust out of. You notice your wife is not into it and she won't verbalize what needs to change? Stop. Don't accept scraps. Don't accept "get it over withs," Some women are okay with enthusiastic duty sex and that is okay but reject the lazy starfish.
> 
> Porn is tricky, especially if you aren't in a good place sexually as it is. What she is saying is probably true- it was hot that one time but every other time and the fact that you are turning it on probably doesn't feel like a genuine connection.


I stopped having sex with my wife because she was not into it and half assing it! I'm trying to get into a place where we are having better sex.

To be honest, she's never given me an excuse that didn't feel like an excuse. We go on date nights. Sex never materializes. 

She has had body issues. No pain during sex, but we've both had back issues.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

lessthennone said:


> I stopped having sex with my wife because she was not into it and half assing it! I'm trying to get into a place where we are having better sex.
> 
> To be honest, she's never given me an excuse that didn't feel like an excuse. We go on date nights. Sex never materializes.
> 
> She has had body issues. No pain during sex, but we've both had back issues.


Look everyone, through all of @lessthennone threads and posts he has tried different things. 

Now, since the Antidepressants and hormonal BC revelations I am going to change my Opinion to one of two options. 

Both AD and HBC can cause any woman's libido to be non existent. So the thing that you have to try now is First, get her off of the HBC, had I realized this from the start I would have recommended it months ago. 

This has to happen NOW. Then in a couple of months, if things do not improve, then look to finding a different AD for her to be on. 

But HBC is KNOWN for making a woman's libido crash. This is very well what could be happening. 

If neither of these things work, then I guess you know what you have to do. You have tried everything else...


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Your sexual relationship is incredibly dysfunctional as you've been told. Most likely, it isn't your fault. But some of it is, because you are incredibly stubborn. You run your mouth to your wife asking too many damn questions and act offended and just no fun--- too much.
Because you are obviously full of resentment before anything fun ever gets started and guess what?-- she picks up on it and it's a turn off.

I've got a suggestion for you to follow, although you'll probably have to blab away and screw it up:

1) Catch an evening when your wife is seemingly in a good mood when you come home (is she ever in one??). Ask her how her day was. Tell her YOU had a great day, that so and so went right and your boss gave you a compliment on so and so. Act freaking happy.
Figure a way to get the kids gone that evening and make sure your wife knows they aren't coming back for at least 2 or 3 hours, or the whole night. 

2) Ask your wife to come to the bed room to help you with something. Think of something sensible. Try to make sure she has had a recent shower, and you be showered and cleaned up nicely.

3) When she comes in the room, gently grab her, pull her close to you (don't hug her) and give her a gentle kiss. Then start massaging her shoulders and everything else and taking her clothes off slowly. Make her stand there and let you take her clothes off. (don't force her, just use your hands to show her you want her to just stand there) Don't talk to her. Don't try to get her to initiate ANYTHING. Try to see by her sounds and tones what she is liking and do that. Give her a freaking back rub after you get her clothes off. Do something that will get her turned on. If this fails, don't say a word, keep acting happy, and try again some other time. But don't try forever.

If you open your mouth during sex for the next year to speak, you are screwing up and will set yourself back on any progress. You talk too damn much. 

If your wife doesn't like any of this, she isn't interested in you sexually at all. She's not attracted to you, or she is totally non-sexual. 
Either case, you need to set a time limit-- 6 months or something, and keep trying things to fire her up (not every day, just every week or couple of weeks) and make her want you WITHOUT TALKING to her during sex. If she is like she always has been, she just is asexual or isn't attracted to you sexually.

Good sex shouldn't be this damn hard to make happen. If it is, it's not all your fault. You CAN find someone else. If after 6 months of ball busting effort doesn't result in some change, just ask her if it's ok for you to have sex with someone that wants you (I don't suggest that, but it's an option that will get SOME KIND of reaction, may be really negative, of course), or you can just ask her for an amicable divorce. It's O.K. Divorce isn't an apocalypse. Both of you may be happier with someone else.

Take action. Stop hoping/getting resentful over you wife's failure to initiate. YOU can initiate. You can do what you can to turn her on. If it doesn't work, it's not you, it's her. Don't worry about it, just do something about it.

You should not be required to go to extreme efforts in "romance" or one-sided physical effort to get some good sex. 
My ex bragged that one evening I took her in the bedroom and bent her over and had my way with her. She liked that. She said it made her feel wanted... ( of course, her trashy self was cheating on me at the time) I read she said this on some crap I found on her phone.

You need to stop hoping for some excitement from your wife and start CAUSING some excitement with your wife. Do you see the difference?


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

@lessthennone Gotcha. Actually trying to help believe it or not. Your probably a good guy but completely blindsided here. What's clear is that what you've been doing simply isn't working. Definition of insanity type of thing. My (final) thought and then happy to bug out...

- Talking / counseling at this point probably won't achieve anything and in fact might hurt actually. She knows that you consider this a problem and chooses not to do anything. Why is that?
- You want her to enthusiastically desire you. That's driven from attraction (which you can control to some extent) and libido (which you cannot). Attraction can be physical (good looking and great physical shape), mental (great chemistry) or even social (compare well against others). 
- You need to decouple initiating sex with desire and personal validation for you. A lot of women want and expect their man to take charge. Could be social conditioning, religious upbringing, other - who knows but it is what it is. Make no shame in being proactive and taking lead.
- Need to better understand what drives your wife in the sack - based on what you've said it seems she wants someone dominant, passionate and masculine who takes control. Based on what you've said you want the opposite and want romantic and slow. There are times for both of course. How does your wife like it and are you paying attention?
- You need to game your wife all the time and learn to read her and also accept her limitations / rebuffs. Toughest thing to do when your dying of thirst in the desert - everything looks like water. Decouple the gaming from the sex and learn to enjoy your time together playfully. 
- You need to stop the self-destructive tendency to get ****hurt about the lack of quality / quantity. Understandable to be sure but pouting, talking (again) and turning down the kibbles will only make things worse and will convince her that all you want is a warm body when nothing could be further from the truth.

You're not alone in this. Your story isn't unique. If you are firm on staying with your wife you must reflect and change. You can only control you. You can't negotiate desire. Be the kind of man that she wants and is attracted to. Sounds simple but it's a lot of work and takes time. But totally worth it and you'll be the best person who can be regardless of whether she's there for you.

Anyhow best of luck (truly).


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Whenever these discussions come up you will find posters who tell you it is your fault. That you need to "man up" or .... something. 

They are speaking from their own experience, but I expect that experience doesn't include a LD partner because they would have left that partner very early in the relationship. 




lessthennone said:


> Dude... Your posts have been extremely unhelpful. You have given no specifics, just critiques of everything I've tried. You claim that I was not being assertive, then complain when I am assertive. You've gone from her "practically begging for it" to " being awkward" to "not being attracted to me". I'm just saying that you shouldn't critique with such authority when it seems you understand the issue less then the other posters in this thread. I need to read no more then you suggesting that she's not low drive. She is low drive. She hasn't begged for sex ever! Yet in your post, she's begging me for sex and I'm turning her down. That just isn't the reality of it.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> I did specifically ask my wife a couple things. Trying to see if she's looking for an alpha male.
> 
> So I gave her a hypothetical... What if I came home and said "Go upstairs, put on your lingerie, then come down and give me the best BJ of my life." I asked her how she would respond. She said negatively because it seemed like I was demanding.
> 
> ...


If this is what she needs (an 'alpha male' in the bedroom), she either won't know that this is what she wants or isn't comfortable admitting it (to you or herself). This is typical. 

So, you're not going to get an answer by asking her.

I suspect that I've given advice in your previous threads that's been ignored. I'll go back and see if there's anything worth revisiting.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> I stopped having sex with my wife because she was not into it and half assing it! I'm trying to get into a place where we are having better sex.


I feel you. I'm coming at this from the perspective of a woman who is the LD in the relationship. I'm also coming at this from a place where I do not desire a traditional and/or dom/sub type relationship. 

I am the LD but it is easy for me to compromise with my husband, tell him what I need for this compromise to be successful and follow through on my promises. The reason it is easy is because he sets his ego aside and listens to me even if what I have to say is contradictory, unflattering towards him, I might tell him "absolutely not, etc. I have the same deal with him - there isn't this vague reason that once applied doesn't produce results.

It's hard because you are the one who is here, not your wife. I, myself am just pointing out things that may have been detrimental - like the lingerie thing - from experience. Because you are the one here, I'm looking at your actions and that in particular was an extremely bad habit of my husband's - getting an actual, factual initiation and then being too hesitant when the actual act happened and then wondering what happened and getting pissed at me.

In this case, I told him - I'm *always* tired at the end of the day and if you really want it, you are going to have to do the other 90% of the work to make sex happen. Otherwise, sleep will always be the more attractive option. So, if I (send you a pic) and you don't pounce on me at the end of the day, I know you don't really want it. I will give you a real NO if I mean no.

My husband, he can work with that and for me, that makes him attractive. If your wife said something like that to you, how would you react - honestly? 

People have different foundations to their relationships. The only thing TAM sees right now is that yours is broken with lots of little cracks possibly leading to one big break. We all have different solutions to fix the cracks and since you are the one here, we are going to throw them at you.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> I agree there is something that isn't in your control but that answer is also diversionary BS. You don't just lay there for two years and go "date nights!!" as the answer for sub-par sex. Any body issues on her end? Any pain mentioned?
> 
> I know you are getting beat up on this but I really think it's so critical for men to know: *stop having sex with your wife if she is not into it or half-assing it. It makes women feel like cum-dumpsters, even if they are doing it intentionally. It creates a bunch of bad associations with sex that are really, really hard to bust out of. You notice your wife is not into it and she won't verbalize what needs to change? Stop. Don't accept scraps. Don't accept "get it over withs,"* Some women are okay with enthusiastic duty sex and that is okay but reject the lazy starfish.
> 
> Porn is tricky, especially if you aren't in a good place sexually as it is. What she is saying is probably true- it was hot that one time but every other time and the fact that you are turning it on probably doesn't feel like a genuine connection.


Am I missing something?

It seems the whole point of this thread is that the OP did exactly as recommended above (in bold). I'm not sure if his wife felt like a cum-dumpster, but he felt like a cum-dumper, didn't like it and decided to stop.

If he's failed in any of this, it's when he accepted her half-assed initiation.

He wins if refuses to have sex with her unless she's enthusiastic.

The downside is that he then becomes @Holdingontoit


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Buddy400 said:


> He wins if refuses to have sex with her unless she's enthusiastic.
> 
> The downside is that he then becomes @Holdingontoit


I see this particular situation slightly differently and yes imo this was a lose-lose. I would say 100% by his there was an actual initiation, even as a tease. There was lackluster follow through all the way around - why are we sitting around waiting, why are we "oh , you want a snuggle" lack of direction in the actual sex and lack of fortitude in not addressing some BS excuse about eyes being closed.

If he never gets enthusiastic sex with his wife - he has a concrete answer. After that, you do with it what you will.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> I'm looking at your actions and that in particular was an extremely bad habit of my husband's - getting an actual, factual initiation and then being too hesitant when the actual act happened and then wondering what happened and getting pissed at me.
> 
> In this case, I told him - I'm *always* tired at the end of the day and if you really want it, you are going to have to do the other 90% of the work to make sex happen. Otherwise, sleep will always be the more attractive option. So, if I (send you a pic) and you don't pounce on me at the end of the day, I know you don't really want it. I will give you a real NO if I mean no.


How often does he get a 'real NO' in those circumstances? 

I know I often made a similar mistake; my wife would hint at something earlier in the day or the day before. When the time came, I'd be closely observing her to make sure she was still in the mood. I'd expect her to actively followup on what she foretold (that's what I would do).

The time would come and she'd seem distracted, tired, whatever and I'd decide she'd changed her mind.

So, now I followup and we're both happier.

She rarely (or never) says 'no' in that situation.

But, it sure would be a heck of a lot easier if she'd just jump on me when I got home; the next day; whenever.

Is that too much to ask?

It seems that it is.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> How often does he get a 'real NO' in those circumstances?
> 
> I know I often made a similar mistake; my wife would hint at something earlier in the day or the day before. When the time came, I'd be closely observing her to make sure she was still in the mood. I'd expect her to actively followup on what she foretold (that's what I would do).
> 
> ...


This sounds familiar. I come home and she's tired or distracted or something. That's when I get the "rain check". Please tell me how to tactfully turn down a rain check for sex now. 

Not, if I initiate. That's when I get the eye-rolls or ****ty minimal effort excuses. 

We'll see. Tonight, I told her what I wanted and I'm expecting it. I think I'm taking the advice of some here, but I'm sure I'll get a few "Why would she want to have sex with you after you said that?".


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I think expecting a BJ is even more of a stretch than enthusiastic sex. A BJ is one sided. Of course the couch encounter didn't sound like she had an orgasm. If she 'did' I would expect it was a fake. She probably wants quickies because she isn't getting much pleasure out of sex so why drag it out.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

lessthennone said:


> We'll see. Tonight, I told her what I wanted and I'm expecting it. I think I'm taking the advice of some here, but I'm sure I'll get a few "Why would she want to have sex with you after you said that?".


Why did you talk at all? Talking is a weak move. You decide what you want. You come home. You make the move. She says yes or she says no. If she says no too often, you file for divorce. I know that is not what you want. But if you are not willing to pull the trigger over this, you are doomed to failure. She will sense your weakness and never find you sufficiently attractive.


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

I'm sorry, but in other threads, you took her on romantic get aways, spiced up the intimacy and thoroughly discussed your sexual issues with her for how long? Right! Way too long. And what exactly has she done to "win" the heart and respect of HER mate? NOTHING. She flatly said, she's cool with it as it is...Right? How many excuses are you going to get till you decide you are worth the attention and sincerity from an actual loving partner? You mentioned your self employed too? And she is stay at home? Riiight. No more. Sir, you are her provider. Not her husband.

Even if it was stick in the mud sex once a month variety....She would STILL initiate it some of the time.. Unless she is the walking dead! You need to have actual consequences for this...Sex is a very important part of married life. It should be wanted by both partners. If it is totally one sided and screwed up THIS LONG...You need to be thinking that maybe she is just too broken.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

anastasia6 said:


> I think expecting a BJ is even more of a stretch than enthusiastic sex. A BJ is one sided. Of course the couch encounter didn't sound like she had an orgasm. If she 'did' I would expect it was a fake. She probably wants quickies because she isn't getting much pleasure out of sex so why drag it out.


While there are, no doubt, men who pay no attention to their partner's sexual satisfaction; I'm sure they don't post here (since they're not aware that they have a problem). 99% of the men who post here about their sexless marriage have tried just about everything to improve the situation and I'm pretty sure that making sure their wife has an orgasm has already occurred to them

The idea that if a woman had orgasms, she'd want sex all the time is one of the most damaging memes I've seen on TAM.

It's not true in any other area of life that if someone enjoyed something, they'd do it all the time. So, I'm not sure why sex would be any different.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Op, you say she’s NEVER begged for sex. I am guessing she was never that enthusiastic and never screwed your brains out.

May I ask: Why in the hell did you marry a woman that didn’t rock your world in bed?

Must guys, and I suspect ladies too, would consider lackluster sex a deal breaker.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

Buddy400 said:


> How often does he get a 'real NO' in those circumstances?


Rarely, but it happens. Mostly illness between initiation and bedtime.




> But, it sure would be a heck of a lot easier if she'd just jump on me when I got home; the next day; whenever.
> 
> Is that too much to ask?
> 
> It seems that it is.


For some women it is all the time. For me, it's hard if my husband expects it to HD frequency. For others, it's not hard at all. I guess the deal is what is workable.




> Tonight, I told her what I wanted and I'm expecting it.


Hell yeah! Go for it, I hope you are successful. If not - I hate to say like fight about it but at least be open to digging for unpleasantness. Pop that boil.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> This sounds familiar. I come home and she's tired or distracted or something. That's when I get the "rain check". Please tell me how to tactfully turn down a rain check for sex now.


"Hey, I can see you're not really into it, I'd rather not until you figure out how to tell what you need from me."

Figure out a timeline on how long you are willing to listen and experiment. Call out the things that haven't worked in the past. If time passes and there is no concrete answer -- you have your real answer which is "it's not going to happen."


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> I'm frustrated. I'm confused. I can't tell whether I'm gas-lighting my wife or whether she's gas-lighting me. I need to vent and maybe I need some advice.


I just spent an hour looking through your posts over the last 4 years.

Considering that your wife is a SAHM and so, even if you divorce when the kids are grown, you'll be on the hook for alimony, the best advice I could come up with at first was to slit your wrists and get it over with.

But, that's not very helpful.

Your a very rational guy. You think that if you can just make the case logically to her, your wife will change her behavior. If you can just take the right actions, she'll respond in a reasonable way. You think that her actions have something to do with her thoughts.

You're wrong on all of these points.

I have experience with a depressed wife (and depressed kids). Your rational thinking will have NO effect on her (other than to piss her off). She, no doubt, has significant self image problems (and your being so much more competent at life than she is just rubs it in).

The only effective thing you can do for someone with depression is hold her, reassure her and tell her that, if she hangs in there, life WILL eventually get better. 

When she's particularly depressed, put "Better Things" by the Kinks on the CD player.

Stop trying to solve her problems. She just wants to vent and know that you care. Try to focus on the fact that it's about you understanding how she FEELS.

Stop thinking that you can solve anything.

As far as sex, although it's very difficult for you to believe, one of the things that has her down is that she knows she's disappointing you and this makes her feel even worse. She would actually prefer to make you happy but doesn't have a clue how to go about it and doesn't have the self confidence to try. You could leave it alone and be sexless for the rest of your marriage but your seething resentment isn't going to make her any happier.

So, you need to find a way to get it started.

First, read about Responsive Desire. If your wife has any desire (and he probably does), that's what's going on with her.

The following seems tough but the problem need to be solved and there's no better way to solve it. 

First, you need to tell her that, as much as you love her and as much as you want to stay married to her, the sex situation is eating you up; that you're not going to be able to stick it out in a sexless marriage. Tell her that sex is your way of emotionally bonding with her. Sex may not be a priority for her but it's a priority for you. In fact, it's just about all that's important to you and it HAS to be solved. That it's the ONLY thing that needs to be solved (this should help her stop worrying about all the other phases of life that she thinks she sucks at).

Tell her that you are going to be more assertive about sex and that her constant rejections are unacceptable. 

Her job is to either enjoy it or pretend to enjoy it well enough so that you believe she's enjoying it (of course, you really want her to enjoy it, but this will take the pressure off her).

Tell her that, if there's any thing she can identify that would make it more enjoyable for her that you will do anything in your power to do it for her.

Tell her that she can (rarely) give you a rain check but that she must cash it in within 24 hours by clearly initiating herself.

As far as HER enjoying sex, you can't worry about that yet, wait until you're actually having sex on a regular basis.

DO NOT ask her what she wants during sex. Just do what you want (and what you think she wants). Don't ask her any questions (she doesn't know the answers).

DO feel free to tell her what you want her to do (do not say "would you like to....", just tell her to do it).

Be enthusiastic, tell her how fabulous it feels to you ("God! I love doing that to you", "it feels GREAT when you do that!" etc).

If you can get her to commit to not refusing to start, you've got a 50/50 chance of pulling this off (although I know you think it's nil).

And, she might even start being less depressed when she starts realizing how great she can make you feel.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I have been told that men prefer Blunt talk, so I am going to be Blunt. I am a woman with a very high sex drive, and if you were my husband my lab Ito would dry up like a leaf in October. You are so passive and wishy-washy and hesitant. You make yourself the victum of your wife's stuff and you won't just step up and grab her. You over think and analyze everything. I'm not sure you even want sex with your wife. I think that complaining about your sex life with your wife has become your security blanket. I hate using terms like alpha and Beta and all of that stuff, but if there was ever anyone who needed it, it to you. Quit asking questions and dissecting all of the ways she is it being the man in the relationship and go get sex with this woman. It's ridiculous.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There is a lot of variation in what women want. You have a high sex drive, so you find the idea of a strong man who directly initiates sex as a positive thing. Unfortunately for many low drive women, that simply isn't true.

You might think its fun to have your strong lover pick you up, carry you to the bedroom, and have his way with you - of course making sure you got yours too. If I tried that with my wife (and I have once or twice), I'd get an immediate "no" - and she would mean it. 

Many LD women want sex only on their own terms, and only when they initiate. 

Similarly, I'd think it was great if I came home from work to have my wife jump me and start removing my clothes. Many LD men would be completely put off and make some disparaging comment, possibly offensive, about their wife's behavior. 




personofinterest said:


> I have been told that men prefer Blunt talk, so I am going to be Blunt. I am a woman with a very high sex drive, and if you were my husband my lab Ito would dry up like a leaf in October. You are so passive and wishy-washy and hesitant. You make yourself the victum of your wife's stuff and you won't just step up and grab her. You over think and analyze everything. I'm not sure you even want sex with your wife. I think that complaining about your sex life with your wife has become your security blanket. I hate using terms like alpha and Beta and all of that stuff, but if there was ever anyone who needed it, it to you. Quit asking questions and dissecting all of the ways she is it being the man in the relationship and go get sex with this woman. It's ridiculous.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

uhtred said:


> There is a lot of variation in what women want. You have a high sex drive, so you find the idea of a strong man who directly initiates sex as a positive thing. Unfortunately for many low drive women, that simply isn't true.
> 
> You might think its fun to have your strong lover pick you up, carry you to the bedroom, and have his way with you - of course making sure you got yours too. If I tried that with my wife (and I have once or twice), I'd get an immediate "no" - and she would mean it.
> 
> Many LD women want sex only on their own terms, and only when they initiate.


I can't tell you how many men say this only to discover the most over-the-top porn texts and photos between their wife and her new lover.

The fire is in there. You gotta figure out the button combination to get it started.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> Wow. I feel like that would be the same thing as me saying to my wife, "You know, I haven't cum in a month. Just sayin". I know they say it doens't take much to turn men on, but her comment turned me off.


So, you want her to initiate, but you're going to be picky about how she does it?

It does not sound like you're trying very hard. For whatever reason she doesn't initiate, there's probably some shame or guilt. Let her initiate clumsily, disgistingly, howeer, at first - THEN start coaching on more gentle methods, if that's what you want. BTW, I have had women initiate EXACTLY by telling me when their last orgasm was...and I took it as the humourous meme for which they intended it.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There are billions of people so I'm sure it happens, but why do you think its common?




dadstartingover said:


> I can't tell you how many men say this only to discover the most over-the-top porn texts and photos between their wife and her new lover.
> 
> The fire is in there. You gotta figure out the button combination to get it started.


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## elaine.evenson (May 19, 2018)

What i can say is that you need to have a heart to heart talk with your wife. The issue of who initiates sex and who don't may put a lot of pressure on your marriage. Women are emotional being, you need to connect with your wife emotionally. If she sense anything funny about your behavior it can be a turn off and affect your sex life. Women are very smart.

Have a heart to heart talk with her. Aside the sex aspect, i sense their some unresolved issues that is paying out. So have a chat with her.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> I have been told that men prefer Blunt talk, so I am going to be Blunt. I am a woman with a very high sex drive, and if you were my husband my lab Ito would dry up like a leaf in October. You are so passive and wishy-washy and hesitant. You make yourself the victum of your wife's stuff and you won't just step up and grab her. You over think and analyze everything. I'm not sure you even want sex with your wife. I think that complaining about your sex life with your wife has become your security blanket. I hate using terms like alpha and Beta and all of that stuff, but if there was ever anyone who needed it, it to you. Quit asking questions and dissecting all of the ways she is it being the man in the relationship and go get sex with this woman. It's ridiculous.


Wow. This one kind of hurts. I can handle blunt talk. So I just stop talking and go get sex with this woman. Wish I had thought of that in the past! What a simple solution. 

Why do I feel like if I was willing to cheat, I wouldn't have this problem? Yet the issue is me being wishy washy or passive? Maybe my wife just has me so twisted over it that I don't know what to do and I'm reaching out to an internet forum for options.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> I have been told that men prefer Blunt talk, so I am going to be Blunt. I am a woman with a very high sex drive, and if you were my husband my lab Ito would dry up like a leaf in October. You are so passive and wishy-washy and hesitant. You make yourself the victum of your wife's stuff and you won't just step up and grab her. You over think and analyze everything. I'm not sure you even want sex with your wife. I think that complaining about your sex life with your wife has become your security blanket. I hate using terms like alpha and Beta and all of that stuff, but if there was ever anyone who needed it, it to you. Quit asking questions and dissecting all of the ways she is it being the man in the relationship and go get sex with this woman. It's ridiculous.


No ****! She isn't confident and is making attempts and he just watches and whines!!!

Check your T levels partner and maybe start lifting weights to exhaustion if you don't have vigorous physical work you can do.

I don't have time to look through all of your posts, but do you physically exert yourself on a regular basis? Are you muscular? How is your diet?

You don't sound like you have a good balance hormonally. Men who work hard physically, with regularity, are far more likely to be calm, confident, balanced and make their women feel safe.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lessthennone said:


> Wow. This one kind of hurts. I can handle blunt talk. So I just stop talking and go get sex with this woman. Wish I had thought of that in the past! What a simple solution.
> 
> Why do I feel like if I was willing to cheat, I wouldn't have this problem? Yet the issue is me being wishy washy or passive? Maybe my wife just has me so twisted over it that I don't know what to do and I'm reaching out to an internet forum for options.


I think if you quit blaming your wife for you being twisted, it would be a healthy place to start.

I get almost exactly the same read on this situation as @personofinterest and we are both HD and different genders.

You need to take note. Stop your whiny bull **** about cheating if you want any real help here.

Mrs. Conan is probably somewhat similar to your wife in temperament and I have had to deal with a couple phases in our marriage where she acted not interested or enthusiastic about sex with me. She even got controlling for a time and tried to ration me or cut me off,(thanks to some disgusting church ladies advice) and I had to deal with it.

I never once got close to the level of self pity, overanalyzing, wretched scrutiny of self and spouse you are wallowing in.

I was still a confident, sexy and desirable man regardless of how she was behaving and I never lost my sense of self. I didn't put up with her nonsense but I didn't make her feel she needed to bear the burden of our sex life or marriage on her shoulders and I stayed loving and supportive. I didn't wait and watch.

I acted and comforted. You don't have to put up with her nonsense but you don't have to put her down or make her responsible for your feelings of self worth either.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> No ****! She isn't confident and is making attempts and he just watches and whines!!!
> 
> Check your T levels partner and maybe start lifting weights to exhaustion if you don't have vigorous physical work you can do.
> 
> ...


What attempts are these you speak of? And where did I say I whined? 

I am 6'2" and 150 lbs. Same height and weight as when we got married. I play basketball and soccer. I may not be super buff, but I'd say I'm in the 97th percentile for athleticism. I can't think of any single symptom that would indicate low-T. On the contrary, I think I may be high-T.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lessthennone said:


> What attempts are these you speak of? And where did I say I whined?
> 
> I am 6'2" and 150 lbs. Same height and weight as when we got married. I play basketball and soccer. I may not be super buff, but I'd say I'm in the 97th percentile for athleticism. I can't think of any single symptom that would indicate low-T. On the contrary, I think I may be high-T.


She is taking pictures and sending them to you. You can't be this clueless.

You are also skinny as a rail and could use some heavy lifting.

Your uneven, unconfident, over analyzing, whiny, lack of calm, reactionary, passive aggressive mannerisms might indicate a low T level or other overall hormonal/health issue.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> She is taking pictures and sending them to you. You can't be this clueless.
> 
> You are also skinny as a rail and could use some heavy lifting.
> 
> Your uneven, unconfident, over analyzing, whiny, lack of calm, reactionary, passive aggressive mannerisms might indicate a low T level or other overall hormonal/health issue.


Yes. And I went home for sex, asked for it, and got an excuse. **** this ****!

Or maybe it was the first time she sent me the pics. When I walked up to her, kissed her neck and proceeded to be *****ed out because she sent me the pictures I asked for.

I don't enjoy weight lifting. So I guess I'm supposed to do something I don't enjoy because you say I'm skinny. If my wife isn't attracted to me, lifting weights isn't going to help.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lessthennone said:


> Yes. And I went home for sex, asked for it, and got an excuse. **** this ****!
> 
> Or maybe it was the first time she sent me the pics. When I walked up to her, kissed her neck and proceeded to be *****ed out because she sent me the pictures I asked for.


I read that and my impression is she isn't confident.

I think if you had some thicker skin, things might go easier.

I'm telling you that my wife is similar to yours in temperament but I handle things differently.

If you love her, developing thick skin is worth it.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I am a woman, so I think I am probably more qualified to understand how women are, since my large circle of friends is very diverse. That said, his wimpy approach to crossing his fingers over 6 is not working. Clearly. So he needs to do something different or just deal with life as it is.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> I read that and my impression is she isn't confident.
> 
> I think if you had some thicker skin, things might go easier.
> 
> ...


Thicker skin... OK. We're having sex. She's not into it and says "why is it taking so long?" OK. So me and my new thicker skin does what now?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

You stop the sex immediately and say you aren't interested in doing this unless it's mutual.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

lessthennone said:


> Thicker skin... OK. We're having sex. She's not into it and says "why is it taking so long?" OK. So me and my new thicker skin does what now?


I am better at sex than that so I wouldn't find myself in this situation. I also am deeply in love with my wife and she with me so this situation would not arise.

Your marriage is very damaged and the sex is just a symptom.

She isn't feeling love for you and you aren't for her either.

Once, when we had been with each other for about 4 months, Mrs. Conan wasn't into the sex we were having and instead of getting in the show or asking me to do something for her, she made a callous remark.

I got right off of her and didn't touch her again until it was totally dealt with down to the root.

You don't let issues like that fester. We would have ceased as a couple if that issue hadn't been slain and cremated before moving on.

I see nothing but contempt for herself and you in that statement and would have probably gotten papers drawn up myself. I also would have left a list of marriage counselors next to the divorce intent and let her know I dearly love her but would not continue in a disrespectful and loveless marriage.

You do understand that the bad sex is just a symptom of a dead marriage don't you?

Somewhere in your history, your marriage died. You are pretending it isn't and acting befuddled that there is no pulse or color in the corpse of your marriage.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Livvie said:


> You stop the sex immediately and say you aren't interested in doing this unless it's mutual.


Yup. That's what got me the last 8 months or so of basically no sex.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> Yup. That's what got me the last 8 months or so of basically no sex.


Why are you focusing on getting better sex? Do you feel like in other areas you have good communication?


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> Livvie said:
> 
> 
> > You stop the sex immediately and say you aren't interested in doing this unless it's mutual.
> ...


Well so didn't that let you know that this is an awful relationship? Why do you want to stay married to her? At a certain point you realize " this sucks" and either stop complaining (both to yourself and out loud), or end the relationship!


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> Why are you focusing on getting better sex? Do you feel like in other areas you have good communication?


Um. Because my arm is tired from masturbating. No, we have poor communication.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> FrenchFry said:
> 
> 
> > Why are you focusing on getting better sex? Do you feel like in other areas you have good communication?
> ...


Again, why do you stay married to her?


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Livvie said:


> Again, why do you stay married to her?


Kids


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> It is a hormonal BC. I'm considering a vasectomy.


There are other ways, apart from vasectomy. You might want to look into IUDs; there is very little systemic absorption from the hormones.
Depo shots and pill can have some of the worst effects because hormones affect the whole system.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> We'll see. *Tonight, I told her what I wanted and I'm expecting it*. I think I'm taking the advice of some here, but I'm sure I'll get a few "Why would she want to have sex with you after you said that?".


Again, maybe it's the way you write, but the bolded is IMO wrong. You don't 'expect' anything. You have to do the legwork and get whatever you want yourself *from her*. Otherwise she will feel that you don;t really want it that much if you are 'expecting' her to do something. That's really not how the majority of sex lives works. 
Frenchfry explained it well what she expects from her husband and I would say that this is not atypical.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Buddy400 said:


> The idea that if a woman had orgasms, she'd want sex all the time is one of the most damaging memes I've seen on TAM.


I'd go further and state that even if a woman has an orgasm, it's absolutely no guarantee that she also enjoyed it! (Bad comparison but it is a fact that some rape victims have orgasms too).

It sometimes makes me chuckle when I read "my wife really enjoys sex with me, she orgasms every time!"


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

FrenchFry said:


> Rarely, but it happens. Mostly illness between initiation and bedtime.


Real or imagined? :wink2:


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I am a woman, so I think I am probably more qualified to understand how women are, since my large circle of friends is very diverse. That said, his wimpy approach to crossing his fingers over 6 is not working. Clearly. So he needs to do something different or just deal with life as it is.


To be fair, you are probably less qualified than an LD man to understand an LD woman, if you are HD.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> Kids


Assume your wife has the same thought and you'll understand that anything you try will fail because your union isn't one of passionate love.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

ButWeAreStrange said:


> OP, It isn't going to be smooth running at first, but patience, trial and error and a joint determination to understand each other should be the driving force behind both of your actions at this point. This needs to be a team effort because you are both participating in self-destructive behavior and neither of you likely intend for that. At the end of the day it isn't about you hurting or her hurting, it's about your marriage hurting, and that should be a shared concern that sparks empathy and compassion for one another.


This is sound advise.

I'm of the mind that 'why' does matter. In your other thread, with considering her comments stupid, there's been no understanding or direct communication as to why the lack of sex 'worked well for her..' This sounds like it's from a place of hurt. Does she understand why sex with her is important to you? Ultimately the lack of understanding between you is hurting the marriage. 

Maybe it's time to disarm and quit pointing the finger of blame at each other.

Determine together whether you both want this marriage, and why and how. 


If I've overlooked this, my bad, but there doesn't seem mention of touch or intimacy between you outside of intercourse, wanting oral sex and photos/texts during the day. How about ...kissing, showering together, a quick dance in the kitchen, massage... spontaneous, fun, loving.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Guys and girls...

Now OP has issues and based on all of his threads lets sum them up. And I think his wife is to blame for some of it. 

1) He is tired of crappy sex. Which, I really cannot argue with. 

2) One of his plans was to let her initiate, which I think he was hoping that when she wanted to she would be in to it. And he was tired of being rejected. Not completely unreasonable as concepts go. 

3) He is and has been passive. But my question is he just goes in and bangs her, is that going to make the sex any better? I mean he could get off... but who really wants that? 

4) He does not want to admit what is actually going on and what he needs to do to fix it.

OP, I understand how you feel, it all sucks. But the bottom line is this:

Unless the birth control or that antidepressants are killing he sex drive, then this will not get better. 

My opinion is that she is not attracted to you. As hard as that is to take, she is not. 

Unless it is her BC and/or AD's, and that is a possibility, the it is the above. 

Your choice is this: 

1) Stay is a basically sexless marriage, with at women that does not love you and is not attracted to you. 

2) Divorce you wife and find a woman that actually wants to have sex with and that loves you...


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## Bluesclues (Mar 30, 2016)

I hate reading your posts. They get me upset and I want to scream. I thought I had posted on your romantic getaway thread, but apparently I typed out a bunch and deleted it like i do on all of your posts because I project too much. 

I hate them because I was your wife in my first marriage. My husband was extremely passive and pouty about everything. And I resented that so much over time that I didn’t want him at all. The thought of sex with him gave me the willies. He wasn’t ugly, he wasn’t fat, his penis was fine and if we ever got to the actual act I enjoyed myself. But boy I didn’t want to. 

I started to believe there was something wrong with me. I vowed to myself to make an effort since the issue must be with me. I would tease about what I would do when I got home,initiate hardcore when the kids went to bed. But 9 1/2 times out of 10 it ended badly. I’d make a face or noise he interpreted as displeasure and we were done before anyone finished. To this day I don’t know how he could feel me roll my eyes with his face in my vagina, but he did. It was awful for both of us. I blamed him. He blamed me. 

We had one period of amazing mind blowing sex - it was during hysterical bonding after I found out he cheated on me with an elderly skag bartender. But HB doesn’t last and when it stopped I realized I couldn’t save this and couldn’t stay with him. I left him for someone else. And haven’t had any sexual issues since. 

Honestly I think you should divorce. You will both be happier. But if you stay you need to change. Listen, I hate to be on top. Hate it. It isn’t insecurity - I can’t get off that way at all. So maybe it is selfish but it is a lot of work for no happy ending on my part. My husband loves it of course so I do it occasionally - but I would whine. “I’m getting a cramp”, “Is this okay?” He finally said “shut up and **** me”. And boy did I. 

THAT is what you needed to do. Her: “Your eyes are closed”. You: “Shut up and **** me”. She either will or she won’t. But my experience from marriage #1 with the “let’s rewind” before one of us said something stupid and ruined the mood doesn’t work. 

My first husband and I went over a year without having sex. A year! We both tried to initiate during that time but one of us would ruin it and leave us both frustrated. That husband would be shocked at the amount of sex I have with husband #2 and locations. We have been together the same amount of years I was with H #1 - we do it in the garage; done it in the front lawn (never again, fear of ticks); regularly a quickie in the powder room; in the basement when we tell the kids we are wrapping gifts; and most recently at my parents house when both sets of parents were there. 

That isn’t bragging (okay maybe a smidge) but said to point out that lack of sex like this is usually a relationship dysfunction not a LD/HD thing. My first marriage was very much a parent/child relationship, even though my spouse was much older than me. That is what I am getting from what you write. You come off as one of the bratty kids from Willy Wonka. Sorry, I know that sounds mean. 

I don’t know if you can change that dynamic. My experience has been no, even after divorce. But maybe if you can both acknowledge the current dysfunction and both of your roles in it (both are to blame) maybe you can work it out


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## SA2017 (Dec 27, 2016)

BigDigg said:


> Man...you didn't listen to a word of advice from the other posts so not sure you will here either. Your wife is just begging you to stop being such a beta wimp. She's clearly sexual however it's required that you be (or pretend to be) the man here. Man up. Some women (many in fact) want their men to initiate. They want you to just grab them away and take it. They don't want to think about it. They want a bit (or a lot) of dominance. They want you to be bold. They get turned on by your desire in them. Accept this as reality and embrace it.
> 
> You want to be wanted and desired but you don't realize that your approach with your wife simply won't work. It's never going to be how you want it, but it can be extremely good and satisfying (better even). Stop talking to her so much about this. It's a complete desire killer. Check out Married Red Pill - perfect prescription for you...


what he said!!! STOP talking so much and just take her. be bold , be a man that wants his wife.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I just read the other thread by OP. The above isn't a good idea. She isn't attracted to him at all and has zero desire to have sex with him. Just taking her is the last thing she wants.

OP refuses to end this relationship and will be stuck in this crappy sex loop until he does. Looks like he plans to "stay for the kids" so he's looking at at least another decade.

Op's wife is a SAHM. OP you might want to change that dynamic sooner rather than later, or the ultimate outcome for all will end up being much much worse.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

All the whining, moaning and cryin'

Stay for the kids, then put up with what you put up with.

Leave and find a partner you are sexually compatible with


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

The stay at home mom stuff should end.

The positives:
She gets some exercise and adult interaction and her libido changes, as does her body.
She might start dressing nicer and gain some self confidence. Might, MIGHT lead to some sex. Likely not with you. 

She is not dependent on you for money, and you can divorce and both be happier.

She has a life she may rather have— likely doesn’t want to work though.... she seems lazy.

Negatives: None that I can see. Even if she meets someone she wants sex with, it might speed up the divorce. Honestly, that’s likely the best solution for you.
It’s very unlikely you’re ever going to get good sex with this woman. It’s not like it’s ever happened before. You settled for crappy sex. Why you’re upset about it now, I’m not really sure. By your own words, you say she’s never “begged for sex”.

You can find one that does. Easily.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> Yes. And I went home for sex, asked for it, and got an excuse. **** this ****!


You don't ask for sex. You don't tell her you are expecting it. It isn't a transactional thing, and you are making it sound like sex is something she does for you, like make roast beef for dinner when you ask. When do you ever treat sex like it is something for HER? Something mutual for BOTH of you? If you don't make it pleasant for her, of course she's going to be reluctant to do it when you ask, and not be particularly interested in doing it, hence the no initiating.



lessthennone said:


> Thicker skin... OK. We're having sex. She's not into it and says "why is it taking so long?" OK. So me and my new thicker skin does what now?


"It's going to take as long as it takes for me to have you writhing and screaming."

"My eyes are closed because I'm focusing on how awesome you feel."

There are loads of things you can think of to say that aren't hurtful and don't ruin the mood. Be playful, be complimentary, stop whining.

Her not being into it and wanting it over quickly means you aren't making it feel good for her. I don't know about all these suggestions about just taking her. Try GIVING to her a while.

Don't just think about a vasectomy. If you are done having kids, go get one. It's your decision to make. If kids are the only thing holding you in this marriage, absolutely do not make more. Then she can get off the hormonal birth control, which is probably not good for her body anyway, even if it isn't affecting her libido.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

The whole point is, sex IS something that only happens (when it does) for HIM. She isn't interested at ALL! That's the whole issue. He treats it like it's something she doesn't want to do because it isn't something she wants to do.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

lessthennone said:


> Yes. And I went home for sex, asked for it, and got an excuse. **** this ****!
> 
> Or maybe it was the first time she sent me the pics. When I walked up to her, kissed her neck and proceeded to be *****ed out because she sent me the pictures I asked for.
> 
> I don't enjoy weight lifting. So I guess I'm supposed to do something I don't enjoy because you say I'm skinny. If my wife isn't attracted to me, lifting weights isn't going to help.


Perhaps you get some sort of secondary gain from being the victim...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> To be fair, you are probably less qualified than an LD man to understand an LD woman, if you are HD.


Perhaps so, but even LD women (except the outliers....and their can't be THAT many or they wouldn't be outliers) tend to be attracted to the same things as other women.

Hint: whiny, passive aggressive guilt-ripping isn't it.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Christ almighty. Never talk, including answering her on any topic, before or during sex unless it's pertinent to the action.

Just start, do, do, and so on.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

And never accept going to the bedroom while someone says they're finishing a TV show, or having a smoke. TV is never more important than improving the closeness in a marriage.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

lessthennone said:


> What attempts are these you speak of? And where did I say I whined?
> 
> I am 6'2" and 150 lbs. Same height and weight as when we got married. I play basketball and soccer. I may not be super buff, but I'd say I'm in the 97th percentile for athleticism. I can't think of any single symptom that would indicate low-T. On the contrary, I think I may be high-T.


OP - i'm not judging at all - but 6'2" and 150 is just really really thin. Probably super healthy (good for you!) but definitely not a traditional cliche masculine frame. Nothing wrong with that of course. 

I know you are really searching but what is it that you really want from this forum? You seem very defensive to every suggestion and seem pretty confident (irrationally so?) that you've checked all the perfect husband boxes. If it's not you, and it's not your approach then it must be your wife right? Trouble is you can't control her and you can only control you. What to do then?


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

Gez man, You are being way to passive and communicative during sex. Your wife says "your eyes a closed" and your response is "Yah, you feel so damn amazing.." or "if i look at your body im going to explode" 

I understand wanting to "slow things down because its been a long time" but your wife clearly doesnt want romantic foreplay... she wants to just f*ck (at least in this one scenario)

When she came in with no pants on you should have thrown her in bed and started to f*ck her (doing whatever is needed for enough lube) not rub her back and her legs or try to extend sex. Once you re-ignite normal sex, and prove yourself, you can start the foreplay again. 

I think your so far away from foreplay/romance, you need to rekindle her desire to want to have sex in the first place. Back rubs and foot rubs only get a women wet if they want to have sex with you in the first place.. I dont think your wife does

Go read the books i suggested in one of your original posts. And stop expecting your wife to initiate. You have the penis and she has the receptacle. The penis thrusts, the vagina accepts. Stop being the vagina


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

DustyDog said:


> What do you mean, stuck to your guns? She initiated, and you rejected her. Initiation is rarely as bold as someone grabbing you or saying "let's...." People prefer to be subtle when initiating.


Agreed... i think the OP sees initiation as "she says she wants sex, she approaches, inserts penis inside her"
Your wife has attempted to initiate multiple times and instead of taking the 'hint' and grabbing it, you are waiting for her to lead the whole sexual dance. Your wife clearly wants you to lead


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

lessthennone said:


> So, in one of the conversations I tried to have with her, I asked her about her fantasies. She said she doesn't have any. I do masterbate frequently. It's the only thing that keeps me sane.


Stop trying to spark desire in her by communication, negotiation, or sex stories. Its drying her up.
She clearly doesnt have any fantasies with YOU. I bet if <insert her favourite actor> asked her what fantasies she had she wouldnt stop talking.


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

lessthennone said:


> Yes. And I went home for sex, asked for it, and got an excuse. **** this ****!
> 
> Or maybe it was the first time she sent me the pics. When I walked up to her, kissed her neck and proceeded to be *****ed out because she sent me the pictures I asked for.
> 
> I don't enjoy weight lifting. So I guess I'm supposed to do something I don't enjoy because you say I'm skinny. If my wife isn't attracted to me, lifting weights isn't going to help.


Im 6'4 and 206lbs and I AM SKINNY... I cant even imagine how you look 50 pound lighter.

Stop playing the victim... "I dont like lifting so am i supposed to do something I dont enjoy" - YES.. be a MAN. Push yourself. You expect your wife to have sex with you when she clearly doesnt enjoy it... so why cant the same be put on you?

Muscles are attractive to women... My wife grabs my pecs and triceps during sex and I can tell she enjoys it... and that is only after 4 months of weight lifting.

Do it for yourself, or do it to turn your wife on... Either way.. bulk up


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

Steve2.0 said:


> Agreed... i think the OP sees initiation as "she says she wants sex, she approaches, inserts penis inside her"
> Your wife has attempted to initiate multiple times and instead of taking the 'hint' and grabbing it, you are waiting for her to lead the whole sexual dance. Your wife clearly wants you to lead


Yes his wife *IS* initiating. But like many men, he is not seeing it as initiation. I think many men (myself included) are clueless to female initiation and it goes completely over their heads because their partners do not initiate the way twy would as men.

My wife's initiation is she puts her toes on my lower legs while laying in bed.

That's it. That is her initiation and her "Game On!" Sign.

That is her signal to me that I need to take the ball and run with it.

Women pin men down and take sexual from men and beg for their penises in porn because that is a male fantasy that rarely happens in real life. 

In real life, women more often give off subtle little signals that they will be responsive and receptive to the men's dominance. 

These signs will be blatantly obvious to other women but often go over most men's heads because men live in a simple, straight-forward and assertive world.

This OP has trouble with interpersonal relating and is way out of sync with his W. He has trouble reading her and picking up her cues. And he has trouble with follow through and closing the deal when he gets a green light.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Thank you all for the help. I'm realizing that asking someone for advice who isn't quite in my situation is probably an exercise in futility. I signed up for this site about 4 years ago when I felt like I had hit my wall. I've gotten a lot of advice and have applied much of it. What I've realized is all the trying hasn't made it better, and in many cases made it worse. 

On a side note, my wife and I had good sex a few days ago. I tried being slightly more aggressive, I tried being a little more understanding; in the end, I just had to wait 4 days until she was ready. 

And on my final note, I thought MMSLP sucked. Bad science and bad writing from a guy who is... Well, pretty damn ugly.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

lessthennone said:


> Thank you all for the help. I'm realizing that asking someone for advice who isn't quite in my situation is probably an exercise in futility. I signed up for this site about 4 years ago when I felt like I had hit my wall. I've gotten a lot of advice and have applied much of it. What I've realized is all the trying hasn't made it better, and in many cases made it worse.
> 
> On a side note, my wife and I had good sex a few days ago. I tried being slightly more aggressive, I tried being a little more understanding; in the end, I just had to wait 4 days until she was ready.
> 
> And on my final note, I thought MMSLP sucked. Bad science and bad writing from a guy who is... Well, pretty damn ugly.


Translation: I don't WANNA!


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

lessthennone said:


> Thank you all for the help. I'm realizing that asking someone for advice who isn't quite in my situation is probably an exercise in futility. I signed up for this site about 4 years ago when I felt like I had hit my wall. I've gotten a lot of advice and have applied much of it. What I've realized is all the trying hasn't made it better, and in many cases made it worse.
> 
> On a side note, my wife and I had good sex a few days ago. I tried being slightly more aggressive, I tried being a little more understanding; in the end, I just had to wait 4 days until she was ready.
> 
> And on my final note, I thought MMSLP sucked. Bad science and bad writing from a guy who is... Well, pretty damn ugly.


Au Contraire! I was in a marriage where sex was as frequent and exciting as a full moon. I had all the same issues you had.... not picking up on the initiation signs.. and when it was "GO" time i would talk, catch a eye roll, and then want to discuss "whats wrong" while we were both naked.


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## FrenchFry (Oct 10, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> And on my final note, I thought MMSLP sucked. Bad science and bad writing from a guy who is... Well, pretty damn ugly.


I agree on this. If you are still here, a question for you: does your wife read any kind of relationship books?


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> Translation: I don't WANNA!


I've been trying for over 5 years. Maybe you should know when to shut the **** up.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

FrenchFry said:


> I agree on this. If you are still here, a question for you: does your wife read any kind of relationship books?


No. It's just not a priority of hers.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

lessthennone said:


> I've been trying for over 5 years. Maybe you should know when to shut the **** up.


See! You DO have some assertive directness in there!

Now go use it on your wife instead of waiting around and then whining that she didn't lead you into the bedroom.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> See! You DO have some assertive directness in there!
> 
> Now go use it on your wife instead of waiting around and then whining that she didn't lead you into the bedroom.


Where I realize this guy understand my wife less then I do.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

The one thing for sure, even with all the similar circumstances and information here that's common to many, many threads.....each hurt person posting knows their own circumstances and relationship nuances, and that's what we all imho are best to remember as advice is shared.

It goes without saying in each response.....strength, courage, and empathy automatically goes to each OP as advice is offered. 

Best,


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I read over and over from strong men that what men need is Blunt advice. When 50 pages of nice is not enough, then according to most of the strong men on forums, some bluntness is required. Mind reading, crossing fingers, and taro cards are not getting the job done. So the most empathetic thing to do in that case is to do something different.


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

I think you need to forget the whole have sex with your wife for the time being. She just baited you with a one and done recently, and yet here you are back to square one. You have listened to alot of the posters but it has gotten nowhere...Fast. You need to start to actually detach from her and start doing for YOU. YOU need to do things solo. You need to quit interacting with her so much. Go find something for you alone to do.


The thing is YOUR wife is not into YOU. She just isn't. My god, if my wife said..."Hurry up and finish already." I would eject from the bed and be outta there so fast her head would spin. Your not tying her shoe. Your not adjusting her chair at a restaurant. You are making love to her. And if THAT is her response to your making love....Guess what! IT AIN'T love brother. Sorry but you are a provider convenience. Not a partner with sexual desire that she wants... Some guys and gals can make a partnership like that last, but my guess is that you are not one of them. You can't squeeze blood from a stone. Begging and trying everything under the sun doesn't work. Time to seriously consider other options.

Maybe if you separate and seriously have that talk about intimacy. And not just sex. You will be either looking at a deer in the headlights look, or the tears for fears look. Either way, you will have a clearer answer for what you need to do in the near future.

Your convo should be like : "you know what? I am just not feeling the togetherness for us anymore." "I don't want to bother you about sex and intimacy, but it is important for couples to share their love, and copiously!" "I am thinking that maybe, there would be a better life partner for me that will accept me for who I am and WANT to be with me."

If she has nothing to say about that, and refuses to take stock upon the situation...She is a stone, and you should move on succinctly.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

BarbedFenceRider said:


> I think you need to forget the whole have sex with your wife for the time being. She just baited you with a one and done recently, and yet here you are back to square one. You have listened to alot of the posters but it has gotten nowhere...Fast. You need to start to actually detach from her and start doing for YOU. YOU need to do things solo. You need to quit interacting with her so much. Go find something for you alone to do.
> 
> 
> The thing is YOUR wife is not into YOU. She just isn't. My god, if my wife said..."Hurry up and finish already." I would eject from the bed and be outta there so fast her head would spin. Your not tying her shoe. Your not adjusting her chair at a restaurant. You are making love to her. And if THAT is her response to your making love....Guess what! IT AIN'T love brother. Sorry but you are a provider convenience. Not a partner with sexual desire that she wants... Some guys and gals can make a partnership like that last, but my guess is that you are not one of them. You can't squeeze blood from a stone. Begging and trying everything under the sun doesn't work. Time to seriously consider other options.
> ...


I did exactly that 8 months ago, and probably 5 times over the last 5 years. Told her I'm going to stop asking. Telling her I had doubts. Went out myself. Did some exercising. Problem is I'm not willing to leave. It's all false threats.

When she says "Hurry up or something", it's a huge turnoff for me. I frequently say "we're done". But others may suggest I'm turning down sex.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

If you aren't willing to leave, then this is probably what your sex life will look like forever. How do you plan to cope with this situation?


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Livvie said:


> If you aren't willing to leave, then this is probably what your sex life will look like forever. How do you plan to cope with this situation?


If the forums were making me feel better about it, I'd post here. I always started my posts off with "Just venting..."because I know little will change it. 

After spending the last 8 months in a withdrawl period, I think I'm back to just having to settle for the table scraps.


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

lessthennone said:


> I did exactly that 8 months ago, and probably 5 times over the last 5 years. Told her I'm going to stop asking. Telling her I had doubts. Went out myself. Did some exercising. Problem is I'm not willing to leave. It's all false threats.
> 
> When she says "Hurry up or something", it's a huge turnoff for me. I frequently say "we're done". But others may suggest I'm turning down sex.


She can sense they are false threats, and after 5 attempts she knows you have no backbone to do anything about it. People forget to mention that when you have the "divorce/seperation" talk you need to be serious about it... 

Did you do all those things (went out, exercising) as a temp solution and stopped doing them? She will see it as even more unattractive behavior if she see's you trying to adjust your life just to get sex and then going back to your old ways if they dont work. You need to listen to the poster above and do things for YOU... for months until it is who you are... Not just long enough to get the next sex romp


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Steve2.0 said:


> She can sense they are false threats, and after 5 attempts she knows you have no backbone to do anything about it. People forget to mention that when you have the "divorce/seperation" talk you need to be serious about it...
> 
> Did you do all those things (went out, exercising) as a temp solution and stopped doing them? She will see it as even more unattractive behavior if she see's you trying to adjust your life just to get sex and then going back to your old ways if they dont work. You need to listen to the poster above and do things for YOU... for months until it is who you are... Not just long enough to get the next sex romp


OK. Here's the thing... Doing things for me involves what? I have hobbies. I just don't enjoy lifting weights. I enjoy basketball, soccer. I do things for myself. I take the kids out myslef. I'm happy with what I do. Am I supposed to do things that make me unhappy?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

lessthennone said:


> If the forums were making me feel better about it, I'd post here. I always started my posts off with "Just venting..."because I know little will change it.
> 
> After spending the last 8 months in a withdrawl period, I think I'm back to just having to settle for the table scraps.


For ME, the thing that is unhelpful about continued venting is it keeps the negative thoughts swirling. If something MUST be, as with you not leaving and not getting the sex you want, then I want to find a way to make peace with it, not continue poking it. But that is me.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> For ME, the thing that is unhelpful about continued venting is it keeps the negative thoughts swirling. If something MUST be, as with you not leaving and not getting the sex you want, then I want to find a way to make peace with it, not continue poking it. But that is me.


I agree. That's why I am thinking of leaving this site. I have a plan to prevent myself from posting, but can't prevent myself from reading.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

lessthennone said:


> Am I supposed to do things that make me unhappy?


I think you should keep doing whatever it was you have always been doing. Seriously I don't see much point in you trying anything you're not keen to do, when any attempts to change your sex life will be half hearted.

All of your carry on over the last 5 years to whine for sex got you nothing, because you won't have a line where you will end it. So with that being the case, I encourage you to stop wasting your time and effort to absolutely no end.

Embrace who you are and accept that sex is too much effort. There can be comfort in acceptance.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

lessthennone said:


> If the forums were making me feel better about it, I'd post here. I always started my posts off with "Just venting..."because I know little will change it.
> 
> After spending the last 8 months in a withdrawl period, I think I'm back to just having to settle for the table scraps.


If you are interested in venting then head right on over to the reddit /deadbeadrooms subsite. It's a completely sad and hopeless place to visit but venting can be therapeutic to some degree. Won't at all solve your problem however watching people shoot themselves in the foot repeatedly will expose the same basic themes and causes and you'll probably catch on eventually that you and your situation are not at all unique. Perhaps you'll recognize a few similarities and develop some courage to honestly assess yourself.

If you are interested in doing something about it (control what you can control) you can head over to married red pill subreddit. It's very male-centric POV but it's 100% actionable advice at least. You can choose not to lift of course.

Along your journey if you want a balanced view and suggestions (both male and female and mixed perspectives) TAM is of course a great place and resource. Problem is that right now you're far to frustrated to take anyone's advice meaningfully. Almost every poster here is trying to help (really - me too), there's a pretty consensus view and advice, but with you it's all "can't" and "won't" and "you don't understand". Yes we do.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

BigDigg said:


> If you are interested in venting then head right on over to the reddit /deadbeadrooms subsite. It's a completely sad and hopeless place to visit but venting can be therapeutic to some degree. Won't at all solve your problem however watching people shoot themselves in the foot repeatedly will expose the same basic themes and causes and you'll probably catch on eventually that you and your situation are not at all unique. Perhaps you'll recognize a few similarities and develop some courage to honestly assess yourself.
> 
> If you are interested in doing something about it (control what you can control) you can head over to married red pill subreddit. It's very male-centric POV but it's 100% actionable advice at least. You can choose not to lift of course.
> 
> Along your journey if you want a balanced view and suggestions (both male and female and mixed perspectives) TAM is of course a great place and resource. Problem is that right now you're far to frustrated to take anyone's advice meaningfully. Almost every poster here is trying to help (really - me too), there's a pretty consensus view and advice, but with you it's all "can't" and "won't" and "you don't understand". Yes we do.


I've been on both reddits. I prefer the people here. 

My issue is that people will say things like "I'm missing her signals". Or I'm not being assertive enough. 

She has no signals because she would prefer not to worry about having sex. If the issue is my assertiveness, then one of the many ways I have initiated should've worked. 

I think the sex cleared my head a bit, but I still recognize a familiar pattern. 

Day 1: I initiate, she's tired or hungry. (Offers to snuggle, no sex)
Day 2: I initiate, she's tired or hungry. (Offers to snuggle, no sex)
Day 3: I initiate, she's tired or hungry. (Offers to snuggle, no sex)
Day 4: I initiate, she's tired or hungry. (Offers to snuggle, no sex)
Day 5: I initiate, she's tired or hungry. (Offers me a quickie as long as it doens't take too long.)
Reset.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

I know a guy older than me that has been married several times. Dated/married nice looking women each time. He’s an arrogant, I suspect controlling *******, who is anal retentive about having things just right, always has to be flawlessly dressed and loves to flirt with the ladies—- although I don’t know if he flirted with other ladies while married.

What I have noticed is that, again, he’s been married SEVERAL times.
He always seemed to find fine attractive, seemingly nice woman to marry. I doubt they always chose to divorce him, he may have been the instigator in some or all, I don’t know. 

What I am getting at is this: One trait this arrogant bastard has that I kinda semi-admire is that he has confidence in himself and has zero doubt he. An find another woman if he needs to. So staying in a relationship that doesn’t satisfy him wouldn’t be an option.

You say you are unwilling to leave. 

That one thing has doomed you to unhappiness. You and I and everyone else knows your wife isn’t going to change.

I have had a few relationships and NEVER had one where I didn’t get all the sex I wanted, at any time. So it’s not that rare, is why I say that. Your wife is an exception. Most women like sex. Turning them on wasn’t brain surgery. I didn’t have to figure out some skillful way to make them want it. THEY wanted it. It’s easy as hell to feed a starving wolf. Just throw some food out and he will take care of business.

You aren’t likely doing anything horribly wrong. It’s your wife.

And SHE is replaceable, sir.

I think it’s cool that you love her that much. It would be uncool for you to stay out of fear of change or some other fear like not being able to find a woman. They walk among us....

How your life pans out is not just luck. It’s how you face problems.
You know all this.

I guess I’m just venting, too. I hate to see a person suffer for no reason.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

lessthennone said:


> I've been on both reddits. I prefer the people here.
> 
> My issue is that people will say things like "I'm missing her signals". Or I'm not being assertive enough.


I think the assumption of these posters is that you and your wife are married in other ways. To me, it sounds like this is not the case. You admit yourself the only reason you are there is for the kids.


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

lessthennone said:


> OK. Here's the thing... Doing things for me involves what? I have hobbies. I just don't enjoy lifting weights. I enjoy basketball, soccer. I do things for myself. I take the kids out myslef. I'm happy with what I do. Am I supposed to do things that make me unhappy?


What are your hobbies? Do they make you leave the house (attention away from wife) or are they all at home?
You enjoy sports, how often do you leave the house (per week) to play them?

How often are you out of the house doing something without your wife is what I am trying to figure out.

My wife lost attraction to me when I was working from home (and she started to aswell) and we were around eachother all the time. Anticipation and attraction was lost b/c we were always together. I never went anywhere so she has no fear that some other hottie was going to give me a look.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

Steve2.0 said:


> What are your hobbies? Do they make you leave the house (attention away from wife) or are they all at home?
> You enjoy sports, how often do you leave the house (per week) to play them?
> 
> How often are you out of the house doing something without your wife is what I am trying to figure out.
> ...



Most of my hobbies are mostly done from the house. For sports, I mostly play at home and with my kids. I'm not a big drinker, and it seems the easiest way to get out of the house is to go to a bar. I've done it, but tbh, I don't like drinking and going to the bar so much. There are times I say I need to get out, but cannot figure out where to go. Those are usually when I'm frustrated.

Now, since my wife sleeps in, I tend to bring the kids out to breakfast or lunch by myself. That is when they don't have school and I don't have work. Some would probably say that I'm not getting me time. I don't want or need me time. I make me time wherever I am. 

She gets out on girls nights and whatnot more frequently. I frequently enjoy those night as my "me" time.


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## Steve2.0 (Dec 11, 2017)

Try to find hobbies that get you out of the house.
Video Games and TV watching shouldn't be considered hobbies and are not attractive.

Your wife needs to see you leave the house and have the potential to meet someone new. Especially if your dropping the "separation" bomb.. the LEAST you could do is actually be someone who is going out and socializing in some form.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@Steve2.0 is exactly correct.

My wife got ALOT more interested in what I was doing when I started going to happy hour with a buddy who cheated on his wife and goes to strip clubs.

I have never cheated. I haven't been to a strip club except at a bachelor party (the last one probably 20 years ago) and never gotten a lap dance, massage, etc. All we do is have a few drinks (at a regular bar / restaurant - not a strip club, I never go with him to those), talk, and ogle the bartenders or waitresses.

But my wife is much more possessive then when I just sat home and watched tv and played video games.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> I've been on both reddits. I prefer the people here.
> 
> My issue is that people will say things like "I'm missing her signals". Or I'm not being assertive enough.
> 
> ...


I think part of the issue is with the way you are describing things. When you write that she sends you nude photos of hers and that she can't wait till you come home to give you a bj plus many other things that look like initiation or desire from her for you to initiate etc; all this points to the fact that you have a willing partner who is sexual, so it's not so strange that people will comment that perhaps you should review your own approach.

When you post that you plan a romantic get away and that your wife appears to want to have sex with you but when you get there, you go exploring instead, it doesn't seem abnormal to immediately question why not take her there and then.
And so on. I think some of us can only go by what you post but if you strongly believe your wife is actively resisting all your advances every time (rather than disappointing you in your expectation for her to initiate like a man would normally do), then it's a different matter.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

lessthennone said:


> Most of my hobbies are mostly done from the house. For sports, I mostly play at home and with my kids. I'm not a big drinker, and it seems the easiest way to get out of the house is to go to a bar. I've done it, but tbh, I don't like drinking and going to the bar so much. There are times I say I need to get out, but cannot figure out where to go. Those are usually when I'm frustrated.


The way you viewed this caught my attention. Hobbies, interests, commitments, outside of the home - while still meeting the commitments of your home life - is (to me) about sense-of-self... confidence, bringing different perspectives, personal growth, expanding your world view. There's a positive balance of what demands of you, also gives to you in return. There's a range of activities, sports teams, volunteering. 

That's if it's important to you. What I'm suggesting isn't something to simply 'get you out of the house' but instead something for you to engage in, and perhaps, challenge you.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

lessthennone said:


> Most of my hobbies are mostly done from the house. For sports, I mostly play at home and with my kids. I'm not a big drinker, and it seems the easiest way to get out of the house is to go to a bar. I've done it, but tbh, I don't like drinking and going to the bar so much. There are times I say I need to get out, but cannot figure out where to go. Those are usually when I'm frustrated.
> 
> Now, since my wife sleeps in, I tend to bring the kids out to breakfast or lunch by myself. That is when they don't have school and I don't have work. Some would probably say that I'm not getting me time. I don't want or need me time. I make me time wherever I am.
> 
> She gets out on girls nights and whatnot more frequently. I frequently enjoy those night as my "me" time.


This is a recipe for depression. Being a home body is FINE until it leads to isolation. (Ask me how I know.) The moment when you want to go out is not the time to start thinking about where to go since the options have not been explored yet. If it were me, I would join a local pick up league or something. I don't do team sports, but I make myself go to my dance classes even when I don't feel like it so they feel homey when I do.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> The way you viewed this caught my attention. Hobbies, interests, commitments, outside of the home - while still meeting the commitments of your home life - is (to me) about sense-of-self... confidence, bringing different perspectives, personal growth, expanding your world view. There's a positive balance of what demands of you, also gives to you in return. There's a range of activities, sports teams, volunteering.
> 
> That's if it's important to you. What I'm suggesting isn't something to simply 'get you out of the house' but instead something for you to engage in, and perhaps, challenge you.


I think I've mentioned my hobby/passion on these forums before. I'm reluctant to, because it's an uncommon hobby and would likely blow my anonymity. Guess I'll blow it here. My hobby is astrophotography and astronomy. I teach people how to do it weekly on a live video-conference. I get as many as 80 live viewers and 500 overnight. It requires patience and dedication. I've been doing it for 10 years and have gained a lot of respect throughout the community. I also do outreach, though I haven't recently due to some equipment changes that made it tougher. I will do more of it this summer.

If you are concerned about my depression, don't worry. This is extremely fulfilling for me.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

You know, maybe you should stop posting and reading. 

Everyone has given you good advice, but it seems like you don't want to listen. 

So just a few points to think about.

1) She get to have her girls nights, which is ok. But, she is not to tired to do something that she wants to do, she is just too tired to have sex with you. 

Which basically means that SHE DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU...

And what sex you get most of the time is vanilla duty sex.... OK. 

2) You have talked in everyway known to man, and it changes nothing. AND YOU KEEP DOING IT. 

3) You refuse to accept the fact that she does not find you attractive, and probably does not love you and absolutely has ZERO RESPECT for you in any way. 

4) You refuse to understand that probably the only way out of this is divorce, if you want to be happy. 

So, since you will not accept advice, your choices are: 

1) Divorce her ASAP and find another woman.

2) Be miserable for the rest of your life in a near sexless marriage. 

That about sums up your situation, I don't know if you need to read anything else...


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

So... Last night my wife and I had amazing sex. Definitely top 3 of our relationship. 

What changed? Two things. I told her how often I self service. Basically once a day. She was shocked, but after realizing it wasn't that unusual, she kind of accepted it.

Then, I told her something I always committed not to telling her. Before my wife and I knew each other, I dated a very high drive girl. We were 16, she was my first; but our drives were matched. We had sex about 2x a day for the 8 months we were dating. So I told my wife about this relationship. Her mind was blown. She didn't know people like this existed. Literally didn't think it was possible. I think it turned her on. Needless to say, the sex was amazing. She had two O's and came pretty close to squirting. She did a couple of things that I had always hoped she'd be comfortable with. Needless to say, my mind was blown. I'm feeling better about a lot of stuff. I'm feeling much more connected to her, because we actually talked about it afterwards. She stopped by my work to just say hi and was still all lovey. ****, I can't stop thinking about it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> Then, I told her something I always committed not to telling her. Before my wife and I knew each other, I dated a very high drive girl. We were 16, she was my first; but our drives were matched. We had sex about 2x a day for the 8 months we were dating. So I told my wife about this relationship. Her mind was blown.


Ok so you basically talked dirty to her.
I am telling you man, don't underestimate the power of a good dirty talk, whether it's previous girlfriends or fantasies etc, some women love it and it's the main driver because sex for them literally happens in their brain.

This is pretty much proof that your wife is perfectly capable of being sexual and you just need to press the right buttons and don't always 'expect' her to do the stuff you want her to do.


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## BigDigg (Jan 11, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> So, since you will not accept advice, your choices are:
> 
> 1) Divorce her ASAP and find another woman.
> 
> 2) Be miserable for the rest of your life in a near sexless marriage.


So sad to me to keep reading all these posts (not just the OP but all the others too). They are all so similar and tragic both for the husband and wife. Men have been absolutely programmed and conditioned to this defeatist mentality that they can't even see the obvious stuff anymore and have no self-respect or confidence to do anything about it. The wives too have no idea that their behavior and actions have directly contributed to emasculating their husbands into such a sorry state that they too miss out on some of the best things in life. Can't imagine that they are happy either. 

You get exactly (1) life to live and that's it. The thought of wasting your best years miserable and feeling completely helpless just seems so depressing to me. If doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity then it's clear you can't get your wife to change if you aren't willing to change yourself. Or you can change your wife. Or just stubbornly wallow in the unfairness of it all like a child.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Ok so you basically talked dirty to her.
> I am telling you man, don't underestimate the power of a good dirty talk, whether it's previous girlfriends or fantasies etc, some women love it and it's the main driver because sex for them literally happens in their brain.
> 
> This is pretty much proof that your wife is perfectly capable of being sexual and you just need to press the right buttons and don't always 'expect' her to do the stuff you want her to do.


Trust me, I've talked dirty to her before. This was something different. Normally she's a little upset about my dirty texts. Not a good time or something. When she responded previous, it was kind of a cut and past job. Yesterday, we had basically a dirty flirty conversation. In the past, she'd tell me it was making her uncomfortable. Yesterday, she reciprocated. 

And I did say I knew she was capable. We had good sex after watching porn. This was on par with that, but no porn needed. Just that it wasn't a priority.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> Trust me, I've talked dirty to her before. This was something different. Normally she's a little upset about my dirty texts. Not a good time or something. When she responded previous, it was kind of a cut and past job. Yesterday, we had basically a dirty flirty conversation. In the past, she'd tell me it was making her uncomfortable. Yesterday, she reciprocated.
> 
> And I did say I knew she was capable. We had good sex after watching porn. This was on par with that, but no porn needed. Just that it wasn't a priority.


Yep, that's the beauty: the mystery of trying to work out what makes your woman tick. Look at it from a glass half full perspective 
(And get better at talking dirty/flirty without pissing her off. That's also a note to myself).


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

She also stopped taking hormonal BC about a week ago. Maybe that's helping as well.


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## dadstartingover (Oct 23, 2015)

lessthennone said:


> So... Last night my wife and I had amazing sex. Definitely top 3 of our relationship.
> 
> What changed? Two things. I told her how often I self service. Basically once a day. She was shocked, but after realizing it wasn't that unusual, she kind of accepted it.
> 
> Then, I told her something I always committed not to telling her. Before my wife and I knew each other, I dated a very high drive girl. We were 16, she was my first; but our drives were matched. We had sex about 2x a day for the 8 months we were dating. So I told my wife about this relationship. Her mind was blown. She didn't know people like this existed. Literally didn't think it was possible. I think it turned her on. Needless to say, the sex was amazing. She had two O's and came pretty close to squirting. She did a couple of things that I had always hoped she'd be comfortable with. Needless to say, my mind was blown. I'm feeling better about a lot of stuff. I'm feeling much more connected to her, because we actually talked about it afterwards. She stopped by my work to just say hi and was still all lovey. ****, I can't stop thinking about it.


One of the five mistakes men in dead bedrooms make is to downplay their sexuality and pretend that no other women exist. They will go out of their way to ignore all other women and overtly show their wife that only THEY exist in their world and no other woman can come close. It never works. _*"Look, honey! I'm so devoted to you even though you are obviously not attracted to me! Doesn't that just turn you on?!"*_

You flipped the script and said _*"I have sexual desires. I'm not ashamed of them. I'm a dude. In fact, I actually had a hot gf in the past that was able to keep up with me and that gave me way more pleasure than what I have experienced with you." *_

This introduced some anxiety in her. She has a desired man? She has a sexual man who is not ashamed of himself? Whoa... that is oddly arousing. 

You're kinda sorta using a cheat code and going back to "new relationship energy" zone (just a little). The tough part will be keeping this up.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

dadstartingover said:


> One of the five mistakes men in dead bedrooms make is to downplay their sexuality and pretend that no other women exist. They will go out of their way to ignore all other women and overtly show their wife that only THEY exist in their world and no other woman can come close. It never works. _*"Look, honey! I'm so devoted to you even though you are obviously not attracted to me! Doesn't that just turn you on?!"*_
> 
> You flipped the script and said _*"I have sexual desires. I'm not ashamed of them. I'm a dude. In fact, I actually had a hot gf in the past that was able to keep up with me and that gave me way more pleasure than what I have experienced with you." *_
> 
> ...


I agree with that. I basically cheated in reverse. Made her jealous or something of my prior. A lot easier and more enjoyable for me then going out to a bar to make her jealous.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> She also stopped taking hormonal BC about a week ago. Maybe that's helping as well.


For sure. 
How do you protect now? Did you cut your balls off? (vasectomy)


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> For sure.
> How do you protect now? Did you cut your balls off? (vasectomy)


About to get a vasectomy. Last night was pull out method.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

BigDigg said:


> So sad to me to keep reading all these posts (not just the OP but all the others too). They are all so similar and tragic both for the husband and wife. Men have been absolutely programmed and conditioned to this defeatist mentality that they can't even see the obvious stuff anymore and have no self-respect or confidence to do anything about it. The wives too have no idea that their behavior and actions have directly contributed to emasculating their husbands into such a sorry state that they too miss out on some of the best things in life. Can't imagine that they are happy either.
> 
> You get exactly (1) life to live and that's it. The thought of wasting your best years miserable and feeling completely helpless just seems so depressing to me. If doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome is the definition of insanity then it's clear you can't get your wife to change if you aren't willing to change yourself. Or you can change your wife. Or just stubbornly wallow in the unfairness of it all like a child.


I agree with SOME of the sentiments that you post here. I am not sure if some if it... IDK, maybe feels too vague or something. 

I feel like many men are conditioned to be weak, beta, whiny children and then wonder why their wives do want to have sex with them, or why they eventually get cheated on. 

I am not sure that I will ever understand it. I have never been in a relationship where I EVER had to ask to sex. The thought of that for me, is so foreign to me as to not even compute in my head. 

But it is a thing for sure. 

Now OP just posted an interesting and positive post so maybe he has broken through her hard head in some way. I hope it will last.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> About to get a vasectomy. Last night was pull out method.


You know she can get an IUD (maybe I said that before). It doesn't affect her systemically and actually studies show that they prevent some forms of cancers in women. You never know what can happen in life. Vasectomy is reversible but there are more risks and reversals are not always successful.

In any case, once you get it done, I would be interested to know about it since I am considering the same.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> You know she can get an IUD (maybe I said that before). It doesn't affect her systemically and actually studies show that they prevent some forms of cancers in women. You never know what can happen in life. Vasectomy is reversible but there are more risks and reversals are not always successful.
> 
> In any case, once you get it done, I would be interested to know about it since I am considering the same.


I mentioned IUD. Her friend had a bad experience. My brother just got snipped. Probably a good time for me.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> I mentioned IUD. Her friend had a bad experience. My brother just got snipped. Probably a good time for me.


Yeah, there are different kinds (what was the bad experience?).
I have also heard of bad (life long) complications from vasectomies. I guess everyone is preconditioned from what they hear.


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## lessthennone (Jun 19, 2014)

inmyprime said:


> Yeah, there are different kinds (what was the bad experience?).
> I have also heard of bad (life long) complications from vasectomies. I guess everyone is preconditioned from what they hear.


Something about it being uncomfortable and needing to be readjusted. 

All surgeries have complications. I'm not really worried. As long as he's careful with the scissors down there.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

lessthennone said:


> Something about it being uncomfortable and needing to be readjusted.
> 
> .


Mine was definitely uncomfortable for me. Also the cord was uncomfortable for DH sometimes.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

lessthennone said:


> She also stopped taking hormonal BC about a week ago. Maybe that's helping as well.


That is probably more of the source of both the problem and the solution. Hormonal BC was VERY effective for me because it killed my libido and made me grumpy/depressed. When we first got married like a good wife I went and got birth control so that he didn't have to wear condoms. After the first three months in my prescription was up I told him I thought about going off birth control because I felt like it was impacting me negatively. He took a big sigh of relief and said oh thank God. He wore condoms for 20 years versus me being on birth control because it killed our sex life. For some people BC has very negative side effects and I don't think many men truly understand that when they just don't want to wear a condom. Fortunately my husband recognized the change and was willing to compromise or we probably would have had a miserable last 24 years.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

Now we are old enough it doesn't matter 😀


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## gr8ful1 (Dec 3, 2016)

lessthennone said:


> All surgeries have complications. I'm not really worried. As long as he's careful with the scissors down there.


I had 2 years of misery following my V and I’ve never fully been the same since. These things do have a complications rate. Be sure to get a damn good doc!


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

gr8ful1 said:


> I had 2 years of misery following my V and I’ve never fully been the same since. These things do have a complications rate. Be sure to get a damn good doc!



It seems that the accounts re vasectomies seem differ quite a bit between the sexes; most women say it’s best thing their husband ever did while guys tend to focus more on the pain & blue balls complications. As a guy, this would concern me..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

And men focus on no condoms instead of the horrible side effects of BC. Both could be safe and happy with condoms. They don't ruin withers body.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

anastasia6 said:


> And men focus on no condoms instead of the horrible side effects of BC. Both could be safe and happy with condoms. They don't ruin withers body.


Not always true. There is something very special in skin on skin contact that can not be duplicated with condoms, even with the most expensive, "natural" condoms on the market. The barrier can, for many men, be a genuine barrier to intimacy. 

I, for one, couldn't feel much, and it took tremendous concentration to be able to perform, and the concentration required took all of the pleasure out of it for me. Even my wife said she could feel the difference and it diminished her pleasure as well, although not nearly so dramatically as it did mine. 

And we did, at one time, have an unwanted pregnancy due to a failed condom. 

It's still preferable to the negative side effects some women get from birth control. No matter how much I hated the condoms, it was still better than the pill (gave my wife migraines) or the diaphragm (gave my wife UTIs). 

We ended up using the rhythm method most of the time. This, of course, is high risk and not advisable for anybody truly wanting to avoid pregnancy. But my wife was as regular as a Swiss watch, and it proved to be reliable for us. The problem was that her drive was completely hormonally driven, and only really activated during ovulation. So we could only have natural sex when she wasn't really interested, which took a lot of the fun out of it for both of us. 

I don't generally believe in no-win scenarios, but this was definitely one. :banghead:


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

lessthennone said:


> She also stopped taking hormonal BC about a week ago. Maybe that's helping as well.


What you have found out is that your wife needs more active mental turn on to get things going. The key is to keep them going. Every so often my wife loses steam so to speak because of stress with the kids, work whatever. During these periods we always make sure to keep having regular sex even if it might be a quickie or she'll watch a little porn to keep the sexual thoughts bouncing in her head. The longer people are in a funk the harder it is for them to snap out of it. It sounds like you telling her of you sexual marathon snapped her out of it. Now you have to keep you foot on the gas. Try downloading some erotic novels or short stories for her to read, for women this seems to work well because it is more of a mental turn on and they can expand upon them in their minds. Maybe you can read them together like your own private book club, and then act out some of the fantasies together. What ever you do don't let it get back into a funk. 

And the hormonal birth control can be a huge factor, but only one week seems like a short period for her hormones to be back to normal.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Not always true. There is something very special in skin on skin contact that can not be duplicated with condoms, even with the most expensive, "natural" condoms on the market. The barrier can, for many men, be a genuine barrier to intimacy.
> 
> I, for one, couldn't feel much, and it took tremendous concentration to be able to perform, and the concentration required took all of the pleasure out of it for me. Even my wife said she could feel the difference and it diminished her pleasure as well, although not nearly so dramatically as it did mine.
> 
> ...


I think it's a good idea for all women who have been on hormonal birth control to have their hormones checked regularly for a period of time after stopping to see if there was any long term affect. Some women can see a drop in testosterone production which will erase any sex drive. There are a few doctors in the US actually looking at testosterone therapy in women for low sex drive issues. There use to be a Dr on Sirius XM who would prescribe T for women (usually a cream) to help with low sex drive if the blood test indicated irregular T levels for a woman.


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