# 12 years of lies, emotional affair, etc.



## Smok81 (Mar 16, 2021)

As it was 12 years, it's hard to boil this down to a short post. 

My wife and I have been married around 14 years. A couple years in, we had a kid; I was working a weird night shift and finishing my degree, and before we had our kid I didn't mind that she'd go to happy hour for several hours; it wasn't my scene even on nights I didn't work late. I had gone to a few happy hours, and met her colleagues at work parties. A couple years after we had our first kid, she was going out with three women and one man, a divorcee (whom I met at a Halloween party). I was now working 7-3, and wife started going to happy hours with the same few people, including the divorcee. As she seemed to have to work late most nights, she'd also go to "happy hour" for three or four hours, always saying "I only had _three beers."_ I didn't have a problem with her "blowing off steam," but I told her that I was uncomfortable with her hanging out with the divorcee; she would often bring him up in conversation and I said that "it seems like an emotional affair." She cried after I said that, but agreed not to see him anymore. 

A year later, we had another kid, a couple years after I started a business that operated about 8 months a year, then I did freelance writing during the offseason. We actually had to hire a nanny when she went back to work, but the nanny was always off at 3pm when I got home. After the kids went to bed, I had at least two hours of work to do on computer; it seemed every day, my wife had an excuse for why she was late: traffic, the train, a meeting went late, _in addition to the "happy hours." _She was "off" of work by 5pm, but rarely home by 7pm. She'd come home to me being pissed and resentful and we'd avoid each other until she went to bed and I could finish work. Months later, I took on an additional 3 hours of work, so every night I was getting 4 hours of sleep, going home to the kids, making dinner, waiting for her to get home and help get the kids to bed, then go our separate ways. 

I lost my business partner and was taking on the business alone, and it started to fall apart. A bunch of equipment failures drained all of my business savings and I had to close three months early. I had to take odd jobs just to pay winter bills and was looking to lease it, sell it, or liquidate it. Things were collapsing all around me, and she was later, had more "obligatory work functions," and would only have "a beer" at happy hour(s). There was one Friday when her parents had the kids while I was installing an appliance and I texted her to see if she could pick the kids up as the install was going long. "Just finishing up," she replied, so I called her office number. "*_* us out if the office. Please leave a message." I text her telling I know she's not in the office, and she calls explaining that "she's at a very important work function for a superior." She apologized, saying "didn't want to stress you out." 

We never addressed it, but she left her google account open on the computer. I just had to compare her location data to where she said she was at the time. It was bar after bar, and I found that she'd leave work an hour or two early to make it seem like she didn't go out at all. She worked in a downtown area, so the locations of bars were also hotels, making it impossible to know if she was at bars or hotels; sometimes, it would be an hour in the middle of the day at what looked like a hotel. She also had an hour lunch at a hotel bar on Valentines day. Sometimes, I'd find bar receipts for those days, sometimes I wouldn't find anything. So, I downloaded phone records into spreadsheets and looked up the numbers. Among other men she worked with, Divorcee corelated with bank and location records. I called her friend to ask her if she knew anything, telling her my suspicions, and she had to intervene. My wife actually told me she _had _to go to two final "happy hours," one in which was leaving at noon and drinking all day with her three female friends and the Divorcee..._then she'd change. _

As it was feeling like the end, we ended up in marriage counseling, the marriage counselor telling us we each needed our own counselors or "therapists" as well. We had trouble with insurance with the marriage counselor, and of course, only I kept going to counseling. However, she seemed to have stopped her behaviors, going out, and lying. She moved to a department where she only worked with women, and they weren't involved with her past at all (and Divorcee was with someone else and left the company). I eventually felt safe, saying "if you want, you could try a happy hour with your new work friends." She said, "No, I don't really want to." "Okay," I said. 

I had noticed a few weird "I had to drive so-and-so home" things that seemed odd. She left her phone at home one day, and it only took about ten seconds of peeking at her texts to reveal she had been going to "happy hours" again. I called her at work and confronted her and she said, "you got me. I'm just a liar." This hurt me so much more than before, because it seemed like she was willing to throw our marriage in the trash and ruin my trust forever just to go out after work. I had my counselor act as our mediator, and my wife talked her way out of it over three weeks; my counselor agreed that she was in-the-wrong, but that it was _my fault for jumping to conclusions due to my self-esteem, _even though my self-esteem had been destroyed by someone who went out drinking while my business fell apart, continued seeing a man I asked her not to, and gambling her marriage for her social life. I had her take an "Emotional Affair test" and her results said: "_No question about it, you’re having an emotional affair and your marriage is closer to divorce than you realize. You’re probably in denial about the depths of your unfaithfulness, but rest assured that you have broken the trust of your spouse." _She remains in denial. 

We agreed to move, and she'd have 2-3 days in the office and work from home the rest of the time, but then Covid forced her whole company to work from home. Her department was eliminated but she was moved to lead a new team...all men. I can hear her in meetings, plenty of talk about personal life with these men. Her position required quarterly travel for 2-3 days before Covid, so when she goes back to the office, not only do I have to fear clandestine "happy hours" but I have to worry about weekends away. A couple weekends ago, she went to a cabin with two women from the "bad times," and was out of contact for 24 hours, bringing me right back. I avoided conflict, and had to work through the night after she got home...and listening to her morning meeting with some dude just set me off. I told her we'd never rebuilt trust (and that it shouldn't be my job to teach her how), how I'd never trust her again, how I'd go to my grave not knowing just if, but how many times she cheated on me going all the way back to before we had children...she explained that, throughout most of it, she thought she was entitled to go against my wishes because I was being anti-feminist. She has no idea what it feels like to think her partner is cheating, so she justified everything she did as "rejecting" my "male authority." She knew after the second round of "happy hour" deception how much it had destroyed me as a person, but she wasn't doing anything to build back trust; she thought "abstinence" was enough. I told her I didn't want to live past 55, when our children would be adults, on their feet, because I mean nothing to her and told her "if you told me you slept with ten other men, I'd always wonder who the eleventh was." 

It just doesn't matter; even if she knows how/why she was wrong, I'll never know if her mind will find her way to justify more. She has a "millennial" sense of entitlement with a "boomer" carelessness about how her actions hurt others. She doesn't understand that the "emotional affair" and all of the other lies make the possibility of far worse being possible and inevitable in my mind. I don't want to leave my kids, and at this point if I left, it wouldn't be to "start over," I'm a piece of ****...so I'd probably just accelerate drinking myself to death. I figure I'll be a good dad, finish raising my kids, leave my life insurance to them at some point in their 20s (at which point they'll see me how their mother does, anyways, so they won't be too upset). 

I guess I'll just say not to raise entitled kids, and to stay away from entitled "feminists," who excuse their selfishness because of "muh feminism."


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Sorry to have you here. In orer to mend yourself and come out of this, you need to first of all see things as they are. Why do you assume this was just emotional affairs? She has had plenty of chances to take this physical and the chances are high that she did. What was (and is) your physical relationship like then and now?

If you accept that it could be physical and investigate accordingly (maybe even ending with a polygraph test), then you will be in a better position to make a judgement. If it was physical (and remember even kissing is physical although I would suspect more), it is going to be very tough for you to deal with but the odds are that you will divorce. And if that happens, you need to understand that kids are better off with a happy but divorced dad instead of one who is in a crappy marriage and is constantly resentful.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Your wife is a crappy wife. What is worse is she is a crappy mother. Oh, and she is a lush.

Divorce her and go for full custody. She doesn't want the kids anyway.


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## nekonamida (Feb 21, 2017)

You need to get yourself a counselor. You should not be making this lying, cheater of a wife your end-all be-all worth dying for. Your life can and will be better without her but it's not going to seem like it until you do some work on yourself.


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Why did you let this go on for so long. A married mother shouldn’t be going out several times a week to go hanging out at bars. She’s not a college kid. I can’t imagine using any excuse to go hangout when my kids were young. I remember wanting to rush to be home to spend time playing with my boys and to make sure my wife wasn’t overburdened. 

What makes your situation more egregious is how entitled she is. For her to tell you your beliefs are why she did it is why I would just D her. There is just not even an ounce of regret, let alone remorse for what she did to you and the kids. A very nasty woman , who’s not wife or mother material.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

Smok81 said:


> As it was 12 years, it's hard to boil this down to a short post.
> 
> My wife and I have been married around 14 years. A couple years in, we had a kid; I was working a weird night shift and finishing my degree, and before we had our kid I didn't mind that she'd go to happy hour for several hours; it wasn't my scene even on nights I didn't work late. I had gone to a few happy hours, and met her colleagues at work parties. A couple years after we had our first kid, she was going out with three women and one man, a divorcee (whom I met at a Halloween party). I was now working 7-3, and wife started going to happy hours with the same few people, including the divorcee. As she seemed to have to work late most nights, she'd also go to "happy hour" for three or four hours, always saying "I only had _three beers."_ I didn't have a problem with her "blowing off steam," but I told her that I was uncomfortable with her hanging out with the divorcee; she would often bring him up in conversation and I said that "it seems like an emotional affair." She cried after I said that, but agreed not to see him anymore.
> 
> ...


She is completely in the wrong, but so are you. 

You should never have tolerated her going to happy hour with a guy. I wouldn't dare do that to my husband, I've been to two happy hours in my life and he knew about both, and knew who was there. I've only never invited my husband because he has a wandering eye, and I would have been embarrassed to have him check out any female colleagues. He wouldn't go either, because I wouldn't allow it. Since I've had children (2 little ones), I don't go at all. 

You needed to establish stronger boundaries, and because you didn't, look where you are now. Learn from this. Most women can't handle it, there's bound to be attraction sooner or later. You should have put your foot down the first time, when you knew you were uncomfortable with the divorcee. 

I'm not sure what's salvageable at this point, but drinking yourself under the table WILL NOT HELP. You have kids for God's sake. Your wife is immature and sloppy, and I think you could get full custody as another poster has said.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

if you have to spend the rest of your marriage having to play detective to see if she is lying, to see if she going to happy hours or any other of her cheating tactics then you might want to move on......you are already the parent to your kids you don't need another immature spouse to have to watch as well. Deep down i think you know that too, i think you need to tell her that you are letting her go live her life as a immature person who is not ready to grow up. It's a shame it comes down to this but you can never trust her.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Well, I hope she made at least one of those other toady men happy. 

She did not make her family happy.

She has little value other than a being an available, juiced up friction device.


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## Smok81 (Mar 16, 2021)

GC1234 said:


> She is completely in the wrong, but so are you.
> 
> You should never have tolerated her going to happy hour with a guy. I wouldn't dare do that to my husband, I've been to two happy hours in my life and he knew about both, and knew who was there. I've only never invited my husband because he has a wandering eye, and I would have been embarrassed to have him check out any female colleagues. He wouldn't go either, because I wouldn't allow it. Since I've had children (2 little ones), I don't go at all.
> 
> ...


I put my foot down. She agreed to stop; instead she just got really good at hiding it. She


jsmart said:


> Why did you let this go on for so long. A married mother shouldn’t be going out several times a week to go hanging out at bars. She’s not a college kid. I can’t imagine using any excuse to go hangout when my kids were young. I remember wanting to rush to be home to spend time playing with my boys and to make sure my wife wasn’t overburdened.
> 
> What makes your situation more egregious is how entitled she is. For her to tell you your beliefs are why she did it is why I would just D her. There is just not even an ounce of regret, let alone remorse for what she did to you and the kids. A very nasty woman , who’s not wife or mother material.


I did put my foot down, she agreed. What she really did was get really good at hiding it. As far as it going "physical," I know 4 others who work there who said it'd be impossible for her to cheat without everyone knowing. But her having lunch with a co-worker wouldn't raise red flags, because they don't know I've told her it's not okay. When she failed the emotional affair test (this wasn't until she was lying and going out again two years later, it was like she hadn't thought of how inappropriate it was. It's like I have to walk her through how things effect others to get past the enormous sense of entitlement, especially when risking it all for a beer with women (which I encouraged her to do, she didn't need to lie).


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

Smok81 said:


> I put my foot down. She agreed to stop; instead she just got really good at hiding it. She
> 
> 
> I did put my foot down, she agreed. What she really did was get really good at hiding it. As far as it going "physical," I know 4 others who work there who said it'd be impossible for her to cheat without everyone knowing. But her having lunch with a co-worker wouldn't raise red flags, because they don't know I've told her it's not okay. When she failed the emotional affair test (this wasn't until she was lying and going out again two years later, it was like she hadn't thought of how inappropriate it was. It's like I have to walk her through how things effect others to get past the enormous sense of entitlement, especially when risking it all for a beer with women (which I encouraged her to do, she didn't need to lie).


Fair enough, but she went to bars/hotels. How do you know what happened? Could it have turned into a PA?


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## marko polo (Jan 26, 2021)

12 years of lies. You might as well assume it has been 14 years of lies.

Your wife does not respect you much less love you.

Even if you had boundaries she would have pushed past them regardless.

Her entitlement amongst other behaviors suggest to me she is a narcissistic creature. If you read up on narcissistic behavior, both overt and covert, you can better decide for yourself what she is. If you decide she is a good fit I will tell you to leave. There is no reason to be had with her much less any remorse.

Consider the following.

*Option #1*. Do not tell her what you plan to do. Speak to a lawyer. Get all necessary matters in order to file. Find an alternate place to live provided your lawyer agrees it will not affect the divorce - abandoning your home.

When you are ready to act blindside her with the divorce, have her served at work. Go no contact save for matters regarding the divorce and childcare.

*Option #2 *Remain in the marriage but place yourself first. I will share an example from another user on another forum. Married couple no kids. Husband is rather easy going, the marriage is by all appearance in working order. Husband learns wife is having an affair. Husband decides against divorce right away as he saw no benefit. His course of action. He sabotaged his wife's affair discreetly, anonymously sent proof the the other man's wife. Other man decided to try to save his marriage. The betrayed husband withdrew completely from his wayward wife. This wasn't so hard while she was having the affair. Regardless he refused to have sex since the discovery of the affair. He had concerns about STDs and he was disgusted with her. He relied on all the same excuses his wife used to give him
before he discovered the affair. He also assumed his wife would have just found another affair partner.

Household chores used to be 50/50. No longer. He stopped doing anything that did not benefit him directly. His wife became the default maid and grounds keeper. She continued to cook and clean, mow the lawn, laundry, he just couldn't be bothered to contribute. They in effect became roommates. He stopped going to his wife's work and family functions unless he thought he would enjoy himself at the gathering. He also stopped bringing his wife to any of his functions. He spent most of his free time with friends. He separated their lives. He confessed to close friends and family about his wife's affair and how he planned to deal with it. He had a reason that he told those he did. He did not go without. Meaning if he found a woman that he was compatible with, as far as attraction and opportunity, he took advantage. He did not hide his marital status nor the state of his marriage from the women he partnered with for sex. This situation lasted 3 years until the husband found a woman that wanted more from him than just an evening. It is at this point that he decided to file for divorce, when it suited him rather than his wife.

Regardless of what you choose to do please recognize your marriage is over and has been for a long time assuming it was ever there in the first place. You may disagree with finding comfort with other women. Your wife already ended your marriage and opened it up with her own affairs. You owe her nothing. Still there are many hazards to indulging. In my own case I was not in the head space to indulge. However, I did take swift action. I filed for divorce and went no contact.

You have value friend. Recognize this even when those who professed at one time do not. You have given your best to an ungrateful wife, proven these last 12 years. Put yourself first. Withdraw all support, aid, emotional comfort, etc from your wayward wife. Take up hobbies and interests you had set aside to prioritize your wife. Restrict communication with your wife. Ignore any topic that is not related to childcare or care of the household. Offer one word answers. If she confronts you about this new behavior d*o not* *offer an explanation*. Take a play from her book and tell her you don't know what she is talking about or that she is crazy. Should she threaten divorce ask her how soon she plans to leave.

Do what is best for you. If your foolish wife wants to stay married let her work for it, let her spend 12 years working to keep a marriage she has taken for granted. Frankly your wife is not worth that effort. I would strongly recommend you pursue option 1 divorce.

All the best regardless what you choose to do.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Smok81 said:


> I put my foot down. She agreed to stop; instead she just got really good at hiding it. She
> 
> 
> I did put my foot down, she agreed. What she really did was get really good at hiding it. As far as it going "physical," I know 4 others who work there who said it'd be impossible for her to cheat without everyone knowing. But her having lunch with a co-worker wouldn't raise red flags, because they don't know I've told her it's not okay. When she failed the emotional affair test (this wasn't until she was lying and going out again two years later, it was like she hadn't thought of how inappropriate it was. It's like I have to walk her through how things effect others to get past the enormous sense of entitlement, especially when risking it all for a beer with women (which I encouraged her to do, she didn't need to lie).


Here's the thing -- You told her what you needed -- HER TO STOP. And what did she do? She CONTINUED doing it and lied to you.
What does that tell you? A) she is a liar, b) her EA's were PROBABLY PA's -- you mentioned a lot of these places were in hotels C) SHe COMPLETELY disrespected YOU, your marriage, and your family.
What exactly is keeping you with her?

You are NOT doing your kids any favors -- you are showing them a marriage that is COMPLETELY one-sided. They will learn what relationships and marriage are supposed to be by what you and your wife show them. How about showing them to stand up for themselves, do NOT accept being sh*t on by their partner, and NOT accepting bad behavior?

SHE is unrepentant, turns the whole thing back on YOU. WHY have you not seen lawyers already?


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Smok81 said:


> I don't want to leave my kids, and at this point if I left, it wouldn't be to "start over," I'm a piece of ****...so I'd probably just accelerate drinking myself to death. I figure I'll be a good dad, finish raising my kids, leave my life insurance to them at some point in their 20s (at which point they'll see me how their mother does, anyways, so they won't be too upset).
> 
> I guess I'll just say not to raise entitled kids, and to stay away from entitled "feminists," who excuse their selfishness because of "muh feminism."


I don’t know if I’m reading this correctly, but are you actually just throwing in the towel on your life because of some beotch? Seriously?

A feminist will only run you over if you let her. Take back your power, be a man and stop taking her ****. Seriously. Your response to her running the streets like a cat in heat is to give up on your life??? STOP IT!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Smok81 said:


> It just doesn't matter; even if she knows how/why she was wrong, I'll never know if her mind will find her way to justify more. She has a "millennial" sense of entitlement with a "boomer" carelessness about how her actions hurt others. She doesn't understand that the "emotional affair" and all of the other lies make the possibility of far worse being possible and inevitable in my mind. I don't want to leave my kids, and at this point if I left, it wouldn't be to "start over," I'm a piece of ****...so I'd probably just accelerate drinking myself to death. I figure I'll be a good dad, finish raising my kids, leave my life insurance to them at some point in their 20s (at which point they'll see me how their mother does, anyways, so they won't be too upset).
> 
> I guess I'll just say not to raise entitled kids, and to stay away from entitled "feminists," who excuse their selfishness because of "muh feminism."


Yeah, so it's pretty clear here the problem at this point isn't your wife, your wife is who she is, The problem is you. Your problem is how passive you are and how excepting you are of so little. You don't want to leave your kids so your solution is to drink yourself to death. This is just insulting. Just be truthful.

"I am passive and afraid to leave her and face all the pain that will involve so I will just drink."

At least that is honest.

Your wife isn't a feminist, she is probably a narcissist. She probably has lost all respect for you because you are passive. Look up my thread about cheating and loss of respect. Besides that at the very least she has had emotional affairs but going out on Valentines day with someone would make me think it's more. You should DNA test your kids. Then divorce.

Better your kids to be from a broken home then to be raised in one.

The number one contributing factor in your kids carrying on your wife's behavior and their belief about men is for you to passively accept it. You are the best example of masculinity they have right now. Well that guy is accepting his wife's affairs and dealing with that by drinking. By the way this isn't me saying you need to get angry and be like "my way or the highway. Getting angry and throwing fits." What you need to say is "this isn't good enough for me. I need a wife that is better so I am going to go find someone who is." Then go and do just that. Your kids will be better for it.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

sokillme said:


> Yeah, so it's pretty clear here the problem at this point isn't your wife, your wife is who she is, The problem is you. Your problem is how passive you are and how excepting you are of so little. You don't want to leave your kids so your solution is to drink yourself to death. This is just insulting. Just be truthful.
> 
> "I am passive and afraid to leave her and face all the pain that will involve so I will just drink."
> 
> ...


I can't believe how common narcissism is!!


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

GC1234 said:


> I can't believe how common narcissism is!!


I think this is a combination of narcissism, lack of respect and his passivity.

The relationship is dysfunctional to begin with.

I guess I don't understand passivity, I mean I don't understand any spouse who is cool with their partner going out like they are single. Makes no sense to me. That would be a fight I would enjoy. I would fight the living crap out of that and not feel bad.

I understand where someone is struggling from something like depression. Something your partner has no control over and how talking about how that effects you that with them is painful and suffering just to avoid it. But fighting over some bull***, **** that bring it on, that is just not going to be comfortable for you if you are married to me. And damn if I wouldn't like it if my wife called me on some ******** I was doing, might not like it at first but in the end I would probably thing. Ahh, good for her. That's MY wife. 

I must be from a different planet.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

sokillme said:


> I think this is a combination of narcissism, lack of respect and his passivity.
> 
> The relationship is dysfunctional to begin with.
> 
> ...


Not at all. The relationship is dysfunctional. He needs to get it together for his own sake, but if she's not willing to change, not sure it's salvageable. Such a shame too.


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## Smok81 (Mar 16, 2021)

"I can't believe how common narcissism is!!"

It is the millennial generation. My first day of kindergarten a bunch of hippies came in and told us we were going to be the "most amazing generation." We could "be anything we want" because "everyone is the same!" Women are told that it's "their turn," and men need to "step aside." Most of the women I knew growing up are half a million in debt with a law degree and don't even practice, then blame "the system" because they aren't famous billionaire astronauts. They're literally programmed with narcissistic traits.

Sorry, I know I keep messing up the formatting going from phone to computer.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Smok81 said:


> "I can't believe how common narcissism is!!"
> 
> It is the millennial generation. My first day of kindergarten a bunch of hippies came in and told us we were going to be the "most amazing generation." We could "be anything we want" because "everyone is the same!" Women are told that it's "their turn," and men need to "step aside." Most of the women I knew growing up are half a million in debt with a law degree and don't even practice, then blame "the system" because they aren't famous billionaire astronauts. They're literally programmed with narcissistic traits.
> 
> Sorry, I know I keep messing up the formatting going from phone to computer.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Smok81 said:


> "I can't believe how common narcissism is!!"
> 
> It is the millennial generation. My first day of kindergarten a bunch of hippies came in and told us we were going to be the "most amazing generation." We could "be anything we want" because "everyone is the same!" Women are told that it's "their turn," and men need to "step aside." Most of the women I knew growing up are half a million in debt with a law degree and don't even practice, then blame "the system" because they aren't famous billionaire astronauts. They're literally programmed with narcissistic traits.
> 
> Sorry, I know I keep messing up the formatting going from phone to computer.


On a serious note you need to stop blaming, what generation your wife is in, or her gender. Bottom line, you allow people to treat you how they do. You made the decision to marry her. The first step for you is to take agency in your life and your life's choices, that is the only way it gets better. 

That is a very funny post though.


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## GC1234 (Apr 15, 2020)

Smok81 said:


> "I can't believe how common narcissism is!!"
> 
> It is the millennial generation. My first day of kindergarten a bunch of hippies came in and told us we were going to be the "most amazing generation." We could "be anything we want" because "everyone is the same!" Women are told that it's "their turn," and men need to "step aside." Most of the women I knew growing up are half a million in debt with a law degree and don't even practice, then blame "the system" because they aren't famous billionaire astronauts. They're literally programmed with narcissistic traits.
> 
> Sorry, I know I keep messing up the formatting going from phone to computer.


I know more people who are not part of the millennial generation that are legit NPD. It doesn't have anything to do with it.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

FOrget the entitlement, feminist, etc. -- you wife SUCKS as a wife. SHE has ZERO respect for you, ZERO respect for your marriage.
The only way you are going to be rid of this problem -- is to GET RID OF THE PROBLEM -- your wife. SHE is the one doing this, SHE is the one cheating, SHE is the one turning the blame on you and SHE is the one who is being an AWFUL mother to your kids.

WHY have you not gone to a lawyer like YESTERDAY????
You need to get some anger here as to what she has been doing and take some action.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@Smok81 Lawyer up.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Every betrayed spouse comes here complaining about an EA. Stop lying to yourself and making excuses. From your post this is a full on physical/sexual affair. The people in her office are probably covering for her. All cheaters lie a lot. A lot! Rugsweeping which is what you did up front only enabled her.

Cheating is on her. It was a decision or choice she made. You didn’t cause it or have anything to do with that.

Her trip to the cabin were with 2 women? Who told you this? Your wife, maybe her friends?

You need to wake up now. You’re only gonna get more.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

DNA your children.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Go see a lawyer, there is no trust, inadequate communication. Forget about MC go and get yourself some great IC so that you grow a pair and take action.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

If your life sucks, remove those blood suckers about you.


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Marc878 said:


> DNA your children.


THIS!!!!RIGHT HERE!!!!!!


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

Her coworkers told you it would be impossible for her to have a PA and you bought that? This woman has been having a years long sexual PA pretty much in your face. 

This situation calls for bold action string action of filing D and exposing to families. Telling political jokes may make you feel better but shows weakness to her and your children. Your weak responses have completely emboldened your WW.

Start by taking your head out of the sand to realize that this has been a PA. Being in denial is allowing you to stay in a passive state. Once you accept that this is much worse than you’ve allowed yourself to believe, it will force you to take bold action because you know that you’re not over reacting. Time for bold action.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

But did you?

Your words say you put your foot down.

But your actions? They say something else ENTIRELY.

ETA: Kind of like your wife, and her willingness to quit her wayward ways.



Smok81 said:


> I put my foot down. She agreed to stop; instead she just got really good at hiding it. She
> 
> 
> I did put my foot down, she agreed. What she really did was get really good at hiding it. As far as it going "physical," I know 4 others who work there who said it'd be impossible for her to cheat without everyone knowing. But her having lunch with a co-worker wouldn't raise red flags, because they don't know I've told her it's not okay. When she failed the emotional affair test (this wasn't until she was lying and going out again two years later, it was like she hadn't thought of how inappropriate it was. It's like I have to walk her through how things effect others to get past the enormous sense of entitlement, especially when risking it all for a beer with women (which I encouraged her to do, she didn't need to lie).


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

You need to divorce her ass and be done. The disrespect here is staggering. Don’t you think you deserve better??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Smok81 (Mar 16, 2021)

RE: bars, hotels: this is data I got from her phone, and there are several issues with the findings. She works in a downtown area, and two hotels are connected to her building, and the area is surrounded by hotels, like any big city. Google improved their accuracy recently, which showed I got false pings because she had lunch at some chain that's in a tower that contains a hotel. Then, there's the legitimate hotel visits that were conferences or ceremonies the company held. This is the data that busted her going to bars. 

RE: "Get a lawyer." Her family is in the 8 digit in worth, my parents (divorced) share a net worth in the five digit range. My neighbor has a 5 bedroom house and lost custody to his ex who has a two bedroom townhouse (three kids), and he gets every-other weekend. I've been an entrepreneur and investor for ten years; not sure if you know this, but credit agencies and banks don't like unpredictable income (some months I bring in 40k, some months I bring in zero _net). _I have a car because I paid in full; can't buy a $150k business property without collateral, can't get a mortgage. If a miracle divorce happened and I got to keep half our _liquid _assets, I might have a down payment on a condo (on the corner of Stab and Shot), but not that precious "steady yet lower income." Same with rent, and if you haven't noticed, the housing market is in a huge bubble propped up by the Fed propping up banks in exchange for interest on, you guessed it, bundled mortgages. 



RE Feminism: She said "It was the whole feminist sense of entitlement, and I fully bought into that." She's now on the fence on if women should _vote. _

RE: "Kids/broken home:" Our kids have no idea of anything going on. The situations like "where is mom?" are long gone, and we aren't actively resentful towards each other in front of them. They get order and routine from her, and social/creative/philosophical from me; that balance vanishes if I see them four days a month. My father abandoned us while my mother had post-partem depression and I was neglected and "inconsequential" after that. My father "sought his own happiness," and now lives in a 300 sq. foot apartment in a "retirement community," partially paid for because he's "disabled" from decades of "being happy." I'm not being "passive," I threw her out until she booked personal counseling for her compulsive lying. 

That's a lot of what I've seen so far. "Do what's best FOR YOU!" No, I have children, and what's best for them isn't a massive upheaval in their home. Being a father takes quite a bit of stoicism that seems alien to our modern culture, but if you read statistics on children of divorce, the negative results are staggering. There's also the culture she was raised in; daycare, latchkey life because "career" is more important than parenting. She went into corporate America after being taught the world owed her something, that she wouldn't let a man tell her what to do (her thought process after continuing friendship with guy), and that her big corporate job status entitled her to go to happy hours, "what's best for her." 

She only focused on what she thought she deserved, so much that she risked losing her marriage _twice. _It took a lot of time to break that programming, realize she was wrong, etc...but sometimes I take-in the situation of the whole relationship and feel pretty down. I see a lot of "she probably had a physical affair!" You don't see how creating that scenario in the spouse's mind _without actually doing it _is more complicated?

"She cheated, DNA test your kids then go buy a mansion and live grand." Get real. If this ends in divorce, I'd be mentally ill to ever have a relationship with a woman again.


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## Rob_1 (Sep 8, 2017)

I just said it in another post: what the F...is wrong with today's men. They're getting dumber than dumb by the minute, not counting their pussifycation.

When I read post of men like this and their pathetic justifications I just feel that we are lost.


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## Luckylucky (Dec 11, 2020)

This is a rare situation where I would probably recommend a side situation, except on the quiet. Given your upbringing and what you’re dealing with now, if you don’t want to leave I honestly think you too deserve something fun and loving. You’ve had it too hard for too long.


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## Sfort (Sep 28, 2019)

You need to find stable work. As long as you've been an entrepreneur, if you can't afford a condo, you have a problem.

Regarding your marriage, you have explanations for why the advice here won't work for you, so it sounds like you need an "open" marriage, which, in your case, is merely a living arrangement where you both sleep at the same house sometimes.

Only your wife knows if she's having a PA, but the likelihood is off the charts. I'd take that bet.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@Smok81 Why not set up a corporation which would employ you?


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## QuietRiot (Sep 10, 2020)

Smok81 said:


> RE: bars, hotels: this is data I got from her phone, and there are several issues with the findings. She works in a downtown area, and two hotels are connected to her building, and the area is surrounded by hotels, like any big city. Google improved their accuracy recently, which showed I got false pings because she had lunch at some chain that's in a tower that contains a hotel. Then, there's the legitimate hotel visits that were conferences or ceremonies the company held. This is the data that busted her going to bars.
> 
> RE: "Get a lawyer." Her family is in the 8 digit in worth, my parents (divorced) share a net worth in the five digit range. My neighbor has a 5 bedroom house and lost custody to his ex who has a two bedroom townhouse (three kids), and he gets every-other weekend. I've been an entrepreneur and investor for ten years; not sure if you know this, but credit agencies and banks don't like unpredictable income (some months I bring in 40k, some months I bring in zero _net). _I have a car because I paid in full; can't buy a $150k business property without collateral, can't get a mortgage. If a miracle divorce happened and I got to keep half our _liquid _assets, I might have a down payment on a condo (on the corner of Stab and Shot), but not that precious "steady yet lower income." Same with rent, and if you haven't noticed, the housing market is in a huge bubble propped up by the Fed propping up banks in exchange for interest on, you guessed it, bundled mortgages.
> 
> ...


Let’s get down to brass tacks friend. No matter what she does to you, no matter who she bangs, no matter how little respect she shows you, you’re going to lay down and take it.

All of your points are fixable and most of them are fear based thinking, not reality. If you refused to be treated this way, you wouldn’t be treated this way. You are now choosing to be cheated on by a serial cheater who doesn’t give a crap about you and you are passing it off as doing what’s best for your kids. This is the life your kids will grow up believing is normal and will either choose to be in your wife’s role as a cheater, or yours as a chronically cheated upon, in their future relationships. That’s what you’re doing for your kids who will see and know far more than you can ever think no matter how much hiding you do.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

Rob_1 said:


> I just said in another post: what the F...is wrong with today's men. They're getting dumber than dumb by the minute, not counting they pussifycation.
> 
> When I read post of men like this and they* pathetic justifications* I just feel that we are lost.



here's your problem as stated above. She sees you as weak and knows she can do whatever she wants. Weakness is the kiss of death. Honestly, it sounds like you are a feminist. You don't understand what women are capable of if they are not kept in line and held accountable. You failed in this respect. Now you're paying for it. I feel sorry for you since you live in a bubble. It's the myth of marriage and woman which you subscribe to. You are confused and wish things will return to normal. The barn door was opened a long time ago. Her job and whoever the fk she thinks she is now is a big problem in this.



Smok81 said:


> she had lunch at some chain that's in a tower that contains a hotel. Then, there's the legitimate hotel visits that were conferences or ceremonies the company held. This is the data that busted her going to bars.


 She thinks she's a big deal.

Practical Female Psychology for the Practical Man by Joesph South might help you break the Myth. Its online. Download it now. Read it. Buy the Predatory Female by Rev Shannon. 



Smok81 said:


> Get real. If this ends in divorce, I'd be mentally ill to ever have a relationship with a woman again.



Until you break this mindset, your problems will continue. It will eventually end in divorce anyway. She probably wants one. Look at her behavior man.
Keep living by your nice guy strategy and things will get worse. A lot worse. And your mental health will be shot.

You need to gain control!


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Sorry man but you’re making a Lot of excuses to do nothing.

download and read “ No More Mr Nice Guy” by gloves

it’s a free pdf and short.

You are a chump only because you allowed it. Stop or you’ll just get more.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

What’s likely to happen is at some point she’ll stumble onto some shiny new guy she really likes and will dump you for him. While all you’ve been doing is standing around flat footed looking for magic to fix this.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

You have one life. That’s all.
Yours is so ****ty that you’re not even wanting to live past 55, when you should be relaxing and living your life on your own schedule.
Your wife’s disrespect, cheating(physical of course), and overall beat-down of your dignity has left you a hollow shell of a man.
Don’t use your kids as a crutch to continue doing nothing. Work at establishing a life that brings you happiness. Your kids don’t want you miserable. Get 50/50 custody.
You have allowed your wife to bring you to ruin. She is the exact antithesis of : “An excellent wife who can find? She is far more precious than jewels. The heart of her husband trusts in her, and he will have no lack of gain. She does him good, and not harm, all the days of her life. She seeks wool and flax, and works with willing hands. She is like the ships of the merchant; she brings her food from afar.”

Sir, take charge of your life and accept nothing less than what brings YOU happiness. Your hatred of what your wife is, has troubled your spirit to the point of drinking and perhaps even suicide. Who can get you out of this bit you?

My advice to you is this: What has doing the same old thing gotten you other than misery. I can’t tell you exactly what to do because I’m not living your life. So my advice is to start doing things DIFFERENTLY, whatever that may entail. Build yourself a life where you look forward to getting up in the morning and living it. Change something in your life and tell us about it. I know I’d like to see a man like you who has been used to the max, get out from under the shadow of deceit and disrespect.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

As men, we hate women who act as men.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

You suffer from 'somewhat' High Intelligence.
You can rationalize anything, even to your own detriment.
You suffer without the _Will _to escape.

Money is your God.
Your wife is the She-Devil.

You have abandoned yourself to _ some-set-notion _of comfort.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Take the hit, the final hit....divorce and _*Go Blue*_ in the face.

Better now, while you have years left to recover.
Take a regular job from a big corporation.
Being self employed is too big a risk for you.
And save.

And, never marry.
And, never lend anybody any money, even your children.

You are that ATM, that blood donor.

Touch not a drop of alcohol.

Your wife is an alcoholic, with you soon to follow.
If she makes it past 65, she will be lucky.
Then again, modern medicine has a way of keeping Sots alive, way past their time.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Smok81 said:


> I eventually felt safe, saying "if you want, you could try a happy hour with your new work friends." She said, "No, I don't really want to." "Okay," I said.


Was this a test? Because it is really stupid to encourage a lush to go to happy hours. You didn't want to be seen as the bad guy prohibiting wifey from having fun - see how that worked out for you? Set your boundaries and stick to them. Life is much better when you take responsibility for it.


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

I'm so sorry you are going through this. She sounds deranged. What kind of person needs that much validation that they repeatedly cheat for years, then they excuse their cheating with feminism. BTW, nothing she said or did is feminist. It doesn't sound like you are controling. It sounds like you did your best to parent, keep the house together and work as much as you could given what your business went through.

Can I recommend you see a divorce lawyer even if you are determined not to divorce, just to get a rough idea about what you would both be entitled to? I think it would be worth it to see who custody would be likely to go to and what scenario you might want going forward, if you decide to stay married but not "together" under the same roof. 

As a fellow betrayed spouse, can I point out, however harsh it may be coming across, the posters on this thread do have a very valid common thread - she will continue to do exactly as much as you allow her to get away with. I'm sure being a wonderful parent you are familiar with consequences for your children's actions? The reality is that spouses and other adults respond only to boundaries e.g. don't go out drinking after work all the time again if they are accompanied by consequences. Don't do it isn't a consequence. A consequence is "if you lie about where you are again, if you go out drinking and cheating again, I will serve you with divorce papers the very next day.

I know when you are dealing with the cheating it feels like the most important thing in the world to uncover the full truth. You can talk to a lawyer about whether you live in a no fault state or not. But proof of adultery isn't particularly helpful in a divorce in a lot of states. It might give you peace of mind. Or it might give you mind movies you really don't want. In the end, after uncovering a fair amount of proof, my divorce lawyer gently told me it wasn't necessary. anymore. I had decided to move ahead with separation, it wouldn't gain me anything in divorce, and I knew what I needed to know - he had gone over to a female friend's house repeatedly when he told me he was working, he had called escorts, and done other stuff I would consider a gross betrayal. You really don't need the details. Unless you particularly want them. Have you talked to your friends or family? If not I would reach out to someone you trust.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

What is so great about her anyway? You are living in the past and living in Fear. 12 years of this shyt. Your head is so messed up. For what. A woman. Get real. What's the primary characteristic that a man should look for in a woman? Answer. It's how she treats him.

Dude Im telling you -- Dump her now. Take Fking charge of your life!!! Get your head straight. Learn what women are like. Break the myth. *read the female psych book I recommended*. You will be dating hotter women who treat you right. You'll look back at your current mindset in disbelief thinking how could I have been such a wimp. The other thing you don't realize is your wife, when you detach, will over time crash and burn without you there to catch her. She needs a husband to do husband things: cut the grass, fix the leaking faucet, watch the kids, etc... etc.. You won't be there anymore to do this crap.

Get your masculinity back brother. Stop being her Doormat.


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## manowar (Oct 3, 2020)

Smok81 said:


> My father abandoned us while my mother had post-partem depression and I was neglected and "inconsequential" after that



here's the basis of your mythical worldview. raised by a single mother. You lost your masculine role model. Your mother had a huge influence on you and likely her (negative) view on men. You don't want to be a POS like dad the hedonist. 

You have put yourself in a submissive position by taking it. She knows you won't do anything and doesn't care. She probably believes that you cant do better than her. That's why you will stay. Yes women think like this OP. This is why there's a lack of respect. This is not how a man, a leader who is dominant and assertive operates. It appears that your beta side has overridden your alpha side in this relationship. Another good book is the MMSP - married man sex primer by athol ? who writes about this. Only you can take back your life. Only you can rewire your brain regarding male/female roles. You are a fking entrepreneur who handles problems all day long. *Apply your business skills to this disaster and you'll flip roles in taking charge of your life with those of your children.* *Start calling the shots*! Free yourself from her poison. Hit her with a divorce complaint. Tell her you are done. Let her fend for herself. With her track record, I doubt anyone will be lining up. They know her. You might even be able to collect alimony from her. You've earned it.


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## DudeInProgress (Jun 10, 2019)

Smok81 said:


> I put my foot down. She agreed to stop; instead she just got really good at hiding it. She
> 
> 
> I did put my foot down, she agreed. What she really did was get really good at hiding it. As far as it going "physical," I know 4 others who work there who said it'd be impossible for her to cheat without everyone knowing. But her having lunch with a co-worker wouldn't raise red flags, because they don't know I've told her it's not okay. When she failed the emotional affair test (this wasn't until she was lying and going out again two years later, it was like she hadn't thought of how inappropriate it was. It's like I have to walk her through how things effect others to get past the enormous sense of entitlement, especially when risking it all for a beer with women (which I encouraged her to do, she didn't need to lie).


You are rationalizing and making excuses. Stop.

Your wife is behaving horribly because you have allowed it.
Her actions make it clear that she does not respect you and is not in love with you. You have been weak and are clearly not leading your marriage. You need to start operating from a position of strength and take control of the situation.

You need to set clear expectations and boundaries with zero tolerance. She does not get to negotiate your boundaries, and if she violates them you need to enforce consequences. If she doesn’t like it, she can leave the marriage. If she refuses to respect your boundaries, you need to have her served.

it may already be too late to save this marriage, and if it is, at least you can leave with some dignity.


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