# Are women truly monogamous or does society shame them of thier not?



## honestman1984 (May 26, 2018)

So I just got done reading Womens infidelity. Living in limbo. What women really mean when they say thier not happy. This writer has spent 12 years interviewing women who have cheated and in the book she argues that women are not naturally monogamous( are men?) . She makes alot of interesting points in this book so I'm wondering do you think marriage would be better and easier if we werent so fixated that sex not love but strictly sex wasn't confined to only the one we loved


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

My first question is, what does it mean to be monogamous by nature? Never cheating? Never noticing the attractiveness of someone who isn't your spouse? Something in between?


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## honestman1984 (May 26, 2018)

Sex in this instance.. people will always be attracted to others


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## FoxinSocks (Apr 14, 2016)

I can't say about other women, but this woman was faithful to the bitter end, even after infidelity on his part only 5 years into the marriage. I was married for 20 years, and even though we were going through the process of separating, I didn't touch another man until after we have filed for divorce. I made a promise, and I keep my promises.


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

When in a committed relationship I am monogamous because I want to be and I choose to be. 


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

The better question is....

Should they be?

While married, while exclusive, certainly. They made a promise, it makes sense.

Outside of marriage and being exclusive, the answer is always, "It depends on the woman".

And it always depends on a woman's values and her adherence to them. 
Loyalty, honesty taken to the end.
Or abandoned when things get tough.


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## happyhusband0005 (May 4, 2018)

I think that human beings are not naturally monogamous, but we are intelligent enough to overcome our natural desires and be faithful. I recently read in interesting article which showed research pointed to the majority of women cheated to feel valued and emotionally supported. Which would seem to work against any notion that women cheating had anything to do with a natural drive to procreate or to seek a better providing mate. 

Me I think people cheat because they're seeking something they're not getting in their relationship and their relationship lacks the respect and communication to effectively address the needs. And some people are just bad people, there is that too.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

honestman1984 said:


> So I just got done reading Womens infidelity. Living in limbo. What women really mean when they say thier not happy. This writer has spent 12 years interviewing women who have cheated and in the book she argues that women are not naturally monogamous( are men?) . She makes alot of interesting points in this book so I'm wondering do you think marriage would be better and easier if we werent so fixated that sex not love but strictly sex wasn't confined to only the one we loved


So she isolated the sample size to be cheater women and from that she determined that they are not monogamous? Did she interview anyone who was monogamous? I mean this is stupid right off the bat. If you isolated everyone who liked chocolate and then wrote a book using those people as your sample you would think that everyone love chocolate. Come on man you have to do better then that right? I mean you get this right? 

You need to read more then this book.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

There might be some ''scientific evidence'' for that, but fidelity is a choice, for both men and women. Infidelity is also a choice, not something that just ''happens'' out of our control, that's just what I think about it.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

I don't know the answer or how the interviews were conducted. But it seems you wouldnt get the correct answer from a sample of cheaters. From my own "interviews" women who cheat don't generally appear to like or respect their mates very much.


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## kenyaone (Jan 26, 2017)

Good point, when one do research he/she has to set a control group to authenticate his/her hypothesis, her research is one sided,thus lacking authority.


sokillme said:


> So she isolated the sample size to be cheater women and from that she determined that they are not monogamous? Did she interview anyone who was monogamous? I mean this is stupid right off the bat. If you isolated everyone who liked chocolate and then wrote a book using those people as your sample you would think that everyone love chocolate. Come on man you have to do better then that right? I mean you get this right?
> 
> You need to read more then this book.


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## honestman1984 (May 26, 2018)

All great points and thought alot of that myself although the book is very interesting seems very isolated for her to make the points she did.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I am naturally monogamous and would never put up with any form of cheating.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

FoxinSocks said:


> I can't say about other women, but this woman was faithful to the bitter end, even after infidelity on his part only 5 years into the marriage. I was married for 20 years, and even though we were going through the process of separating, I didn't touch another man until after we have filed for divorce. I made a promise, and I keep my promises.


Did you have to work at it, or was it easy? Were you tempted, and you had to avoid temptation?

The question is about "naturally" monogamous. If it were natural, then you'd have never thought of being otherwise, never noticed temptation, etc.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Humans as a species are definitely not naturally monogamous, although with the natural range and variation in such a trait, some are far more (or less) easily monogamous than others. We are culturally and socially monogamous (most cultures, but some still readily allow polygamy), through convention, indoctrination, etc. Humans do tend to pair bond, but that is not a permanent situation. Society has traditionally shamed those who do not conform to social conventions such as monogamy, especially women (men, not so much).


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*I've always been adhered to strict relationship/marital monogamy because of Christian admonitions as well as the ethical concerns governed by societal norms. 

And I seem to be the better man for it!*


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Men fervently want 'their' wife/gf to be monogamous.

Some women want otherwise.

Men don't always get what they want.

Women [almost always] get what they want.
They do not always get to 'keep' what they won, they wanted.
Nor, should they.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

I don't believe that monogamy is a natural state anymore than I believe any other worthwhile pursuit is natural. All good things take effort - and usually sacrifice of some sort or another.

Monogamy is my preference, and I see myself as staunchly so. 

I've come to a place in my life where I think finding a man who shares my values would most certainly be like finding a needle in a haystack. So, I'm content being on my own.

But I've never felt shame about it. If anything, especially on this forum, it's been the opposite, and I've had unkind remarks thrown my way because I refuse to be promiscuous.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

On a biological level, when a Female has an orgasm with her mate or gives birth, the oxytocin hormone is released in large amounts. Oxytocin (Vasopressin in men) is the hormone responsible for the warm compassionate love that people feel towards their mate, aka pair bonding.

The other two (important) hormonal agents related to sex is Dopamine and Testosterone. Testosterone gives both genders their sex drive, men just have A LOT more that they also use for other biological functions. Dopamine is the feel good chemicals released that create the "in-love" feelings of excitement.

So, I wouldn't say its at all unnatural for humans to be monogamous (Oxytocin/Vaspospressin), but its also rather common for them to want to stray (Testosterone/Dopamine) esp if they aren't being 'topped off' by their mate in those departments. 

Of course, that's only half of it, personal values also are a huge part of the equation.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

VladDracul said:


> I don't know the answer or how the interviews were conducted. But it seems you wouldnt get the correct answer from a sample of cheaters. From my own "interviews" women who cheat don't generally appear to like or respect their mates very much.


Did you get a sense then as to why they married someone whom they did not respect?


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

I found something interesting.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Billions of women, so lots of variation. I really don't think there is any way to generalize. 

I'm not sure "naturally" is well defined either. Humans have evolved and learned along with their interactions with society, so I don't think there is a way to separate those two. 

From vague statistics on infidelity, it seems that something like half of men and women who commit to monogamy find partners outside of their relationship.

Some people of course are openly non-monogamous. Others are completely monogamous.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

minimalME said:


> I don't believe that monogamy is a natural state anymore than I believe any other worthwhile pursuit is natural. All good things take effort - and usually sacrifice of some sort or another.
> 
> Monogamy is my preference, and I see myself as staunchly so.
> 
> ...


The other type, the promiscuous ones.
They are loved for a day, maybe a month.

The types who are loyal, who share their bodily riches but with one man...
They are loved for a day, a day that lasts forever.

Keep down that road. You are not alone.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

SunCMars said:


> Keep down that road. You are not alone.


Made me cry. Thank you.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

honestman1984 said:


> Sex in this instance.. people will always be attracted to others


ok, so monogamous means not having sex outside the relationship. With that definition, lots of women are monogamous, and lots are not. As for those who are, the next question is how many are by nature, and how many b/c of shame/profit/fear? I think that will vary from society to society, since the amount of shame/profit/fear will vary. For those who want to be monogamous, I would wonder how many would feel that way if they'd grown up in a difft. society. 

There isn't a whole lot you can say about women's nature, they are a complex species.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

Monogamy used to mean (for women) one man for life. Now it means one man at a time.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> Monogamy used to mean (for women) one man for life. Now it means one man at a time.



You should credit the quote to the appropriate source  (Perel)


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

SpinyNorman said:


> the next question is how many are by nature, and how many b/c of shame/profit/fear?


You left out the much larger group that is monogamous due to cultural and social indoctrination. Of that group, some will have a easier time following the ideal, and some less, and that's due to either nature (more or less monogamous by genetic predisposition), fear (or lack of fear) of social stigmatization, or perhaps rejection of social norms after evaluating their personal value and relevance.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

MAJDEATH said:


> Monogamy used to mean (for women) one man for life. Now it means one man at a time.


That varied a lot from culture to culture, and still does.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Married but Happy said:


> *You left out the much larger group that is monogamous due to cultural and social indoctrination.* Of that group, some will have a easier time following the ideal, and some less, and that's due to either nature (more or less monogamous by genetic predisposition), fear (or lack of fear) of social stigmatization, or perhaps rejection of social norms after evaluating their personal value and relevance.


I did say this "For those who want to be monogamous, I would wonder how many would feel that way if they'd grown up in a difft. society."


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## I shouldnthave (Apr 11, 2018)

Truthfully?

I would say I am not "naturally" (as in inclined) to be sexually monogamous, but I am very much emotionally monogamous. 

Now WHY is that, I am sure it is a combination of many things, perhaps a bit biological, but I think it also has a lot to do with my personality type, upbringing and experiences. 

I have tendency to compartmentalize. Sex never equaled love for me (but is something I can share with someone I love). I was not raised with religion, or even in a culture that put a high prize on monogamy. 

Before my husband, I always had a FWB on the side. I valued "sex only" relationships. 

Biologically, I always have been a bit fascinated by my tom boy qualities - I have often felt I belonged more in the "boy club" especially when it comes to my views on sex, and my roles in relationships. I have finger length ratio that indicates I was exposed to higher than average levels of testosterone while developing (info here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio). Which statistically manifests in greater risk taking behavior, assertiveness, and even polygamy.

I am fiercely monogamous when it comes to love and emotional connections though. I don't even like having more than one dog at once, because I feel its unfair to share my love between two!


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

MAJDEATH said:


> Monogamy used to mean (for women) one man for life. Now it means one man at a time.


I agree, and I struggle with this. 

I've recently been researching divorce and remarriage, and one source stated that remarriage is simply adultery (against a living partner) and consecutive polygamy (you can have as many husbands/wives as you like, as long as you have them one at a time).

The thought of it all stings, yet I believe the lesser of two evils would still be to remarry, rather than being promiscuous.

I suppose a rare few would embrace celibacy, but that's not me.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

minimalME said:


> I agree, and I struggle with this.
> 
> I've recently been researching divorce and remarriage, and one source stated that remarriage is simply adultery (against a living partner) and consecutive polygamy (you can have as many husbands/wives as you like, as long as you have them one at a time).
> 
> ...


Its adultery if you are married, separated or going though a divorce. Once the divorce is final you are free to remarry.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

I shouldnthave said:


> Truthfully?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Interesting but there’s an assumption there that not connecting sex with emotion is a ‘guy thing’. Maybe that’s true for the majority but I was never like this.
I actually am naturally extremely monogamous, both emotionally and physiologically. 

It takes me a while to get ‘bonded’ with someone and then I want sex with them all the time and don’t want anybody else.
In fact I would not even be able to perform physically with somebody else, unless I was bonded with them. That’s how I managed to stay a virgin till I met my wife; I couldn’t really do much with casual girlfriends nor could I do ONS. But never ever have not been ‘in the mood’ with wife.
Always felt I was weird because many friends were screwing left and right but I also knew guys like me.
Not everyone is the same I don’t think.

Maybe it is genes; my wife gave me amazing children and maybe my genes ‘know’ that she is capable of producing those and subconsciously all they want is her. 

I worry what happens once she gets to menopause whether I will still have that kind of desire for her. It is not entirely something under my control and I do sometimes worry.


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## minimalME (Jan 3, 2012)

Diana7 said:


> Its adultery if you are married, separated or going though a divorce. Once the divorce is final you are free to remarry.


That's one school of thought. Obviously there are many others.


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## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

I don’t think there’s anything natural or unnatural about it. It’s just a choice. For some people it’s important and for others it’s not. I feel like this need to call monogamy “unnatural” stems from people wanting to feel like they’re doing things the “right” way. Maybe there is no right way. Do what you want as long as you’re honest with yourself and your partner/partners.

I’ve been married for 15 years and would never cheat. Do I fantasize about other men sometimes? Sure! Would I ever actually make a move? No. The thought of cheating on my husband sickens me. The thought of him feeling betrayed and hurt feels awful. I love him way too much. I feel perfectly fine knowing that I’ll only be with him. It’s not a struggle or hardship. 
He once offered to let me to have sex with someone else...and it seriously broke my heart. It was about 14 years ago and it still stings. 
(It’s a long story and we were both very immature. I hope he would have taken it back if I would have said yes.)

On the other side, I’ve known people who didn’t want to be monogamous and felt like they couldn’t be. I don’t think they are bad people as long as they are honest about it.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

LeananSidhe said:


> Do I fantasize about other men sometimes? Sure!


But that means it might be 'natural' to *you*. You just don't do it because your logical mind is telling you that it would be a bad mistake.
For example I don't fantasize or think about sex with other women (in the sense that I never really wonder what it would be like). I generally 'fantasize' about having more and better sex with wife and if I had a choice of having sex with her or 5 random women, I know that for me it would be more fulfilling to sleep with wife. It's the way I am wired but neither is 'wrong' or unnatural; just that different people are different. I have other fantasies but they mostly involve my wife. And duck tape . (Joking) 
For example, I think I am more exhibitionist than her but it doesn't mean I would want to involve other people. And she is more submissive etc (doesn't mean she wants me to be abusive. at least not outside bedroom). Other people? not so much for either of us.

I can for example think about certain body parts and it is not an unpleasant thought in itself...but as soon as I become aware that it is attached to an actual person, again it stops being something i fantasize about. It's how I can 'tolerate' watching porn (when I 'had' to; when sex is regular, I don't. Unless wife wants to)..


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## LeananSidhe (Feb 6, 2018)

inmyprime said:


> LeananSidhe said:
> 
> 
> > Do I fantasize about other men sometimes? Sure!
> ...


I think it depends on your definition of monogamy. The dictionary says it’s having one spouse/sexual partner at a time. So in that sense monogamy is “natural” to me. When I fantasize about other men it’s not that I’m fantasizing about a person I know or cheating on my husband. It’s more a completely different life fantasy...if that makes sense. Maybe I’m a sexy groupie who meets Dave Grohl and has sex on a tour bus. Maybe I’m a 1960s secretary who has sex with my boss on his desk (my boss is Don Draper). I’m never really me in these fantasies. If I’m fantasizing about realistic sex then I’m thinking about my husband and normally a particular sex session that we’ve had that I found extra hot. I don’t have any desire to actually have sex with someone else. A fantasy can just be a fantasy. 

My husband most definitely fantasizes about other women. Women that he knows personally. He thinks I’m weird for fantasizing about people that I don’t actually know. He doesn’t have my imagination. In his fantasies I’m there too and an active participant or at least happily observing. 
But he doesn’t think he could actually perform if the real thing presented itself. This is something that we actually have experienced. Many, many years ago we were out late at night with a female friend of mine. I have no idea how it happened but she was in our backseat and her and I both ended up with our shirts off. We kissed and played around with each other’s breasts for a few minutes while my husband watched. He remembers the experience fondly but says that he was worried because he wasn’t erect at all. Later that night, after we dropped the friend off, he instantly had an erection thinking about it and we had very hot sex. One of my fantasies has always been having a threesome or watching my husband have sex with someone else...but this friend offered to come over the next weekend for that and it freaked me out. I declined and distanced myself from that friend. Because it’s just a fantasy and not something I could ever do “in real life”.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

LeananSidhe said:


> I think it depends on your definition of monogamy. The dictionary says it’s having one spouse/sexual partner at a time. So in that sense monogamy is “natural” to me. When I fantasize about other men it’s not that I’m fantasizing about a person I know or cheating on my husband. It’s more a completely different life fantasy...if that makes sense. Maybe I’m a sexy groupie who meets Dave Grohl and has sex on a tour bus. Maybe I’m a 1960s secretary who has sex with my boss on his desk (my boss is Don Draper). I’m never really me in these fantasies. If I’m fantasizing about realistic sex then I’m thinking about my husband and normally a particular sex session that we’ve had that I found extra hot. I don’t have any desire to actually have sex with someone else. A fantasy can just be a fantasy.



Your imagination is so much more advanced than mine! I can barely imagine anybody else in my imagination and imagining myself as someone else on top of it sounds like a complete mind **** to me.



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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

A famous woman once said that ladies seek 3 relationships with their partners: one for emotional support/deep love, one for sexual attraction/fulfillment, and one for family stability/security. 
One partner can fulfill all 3 roles, or it can be separate partners. I know for a fact that at one time my W had 3 separate partners to fulfill these roles when we were separated. But it can change.


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## Jharp (Jun 8, 2018)

FoxinSocks said:


> I can't say about other women, but this woman was faithful to the bitter end, even after infidelity on his part only 5 years into the marriage. I was married for 20 years, and even though we were going through the process of separating, I didn't touch another man until after we have filed for divorce. I made a promise, and I keep my promises.



Which is why women like you are a rare find nowadays.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm currently operating on the theory that the only natural Monogamists are demi-sexual. The rest of ya'all are a bunch of randy buggers.

edit: that was some strong language that was meant lightly, but I really just wanted to see what the profanity filter would do.


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## FoxinSocks (Apr 14, 2016)

Jharp said:


> Which is why women like you are a rare find nowadays.


... and I'm wondering if there are any men left out there who would/will give me the same promise. Maybe rarer than the woman?


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

For me it is a conscious choice. When in a serious relationship I am monogamous, when dating or a casual relationship then it may or may not be monogamous.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

FoxinSocks said:


> ... and I'm wondering if there are any men left out there who would/will give me the same promise. Maybe rarer than the woman?


I can tell you that there are, I am one... now. 

Sometimes it takes a special women to straighten someone like me out, And I found her. 

And man, is she special...


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## PigglyWiggly (May 1, 2018)

My wife is a monogamous person. I love monogamy myself. If it's not for you, you do you just be honest with everyone involved.


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## Jharp (Jun 8, 2018)

FoxinSocks said:


> ... and I'm wondering if there are any men left out there who would/will give me the same promise. Maybe rarer than the woman?



I can't speak for other men. I'm not that arrogant nor that Naive to think that I can. I can only speak for myself. And I'm the loyal type. Most of the guys I know are the loyal type too. Ironically they're the ones who get ****ed over by Women who aren't loyal.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I think if you want to be honest about it the most natural human emotion or thinking is selfishness. The only case it's not is parent for child, and that is only because we are genetically programed to want to propagate ourselves. If we were to act on what ever was the most base natural action it would be like last man standing. Which is why questions like this have no real meaning. 

Everything is a choice.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

minimalME said:


> That's one school of thought. Obviously there are many others.


#
legally you are still married until the divorce is complete. So if you have sex with another person while that is going on its adultery.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FoxinSocks said:


> ... and I'm wondering if there are any men left out there who would/will give me the same promise. Maybe rarer than the woman?


yes there are, I know many men like that.


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## WildMustang (Nov 7, 2017)

I am monogamous. 

I was with my husband for 28 years and I never once cheated on him, although I had many opportunities (as we all do). 

I also waited until AFTER my divorce was final before I dated or had sex with another man. Divorce was final 9 months after I filed. Seems like a long time to go without sex, but that time flew by and I am glad I waited because I felt like it would be cheating to date or have sex because we were still legally married, even though the marriage was in the process of ending. (Actually, the marriage was over long before, but legally, we were still married).


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

My personal experience is that not one of my relationships/loves was monogamous. My ex fiancée cheated on me. My second love cheated on me. While my wife did not cheat on me she had a long term girlfriend and had sex with my best friend during a wife swap. When I was in-between relationships I had sex with married women. Even after I was married, four wives of my friends wanted to have sex with me. I was considered a hot guy back then. The first game me a massage (she was a licensed Masseuse) with a happy ending. The second offered oral sex without her false teeth. The third had me over to fix her computer when her husband was out of town and came into the den naked. The fourth rubbed my crotch and stuck her tongue in my mouth when I was helping her clean up after a party with her husband passed out drunk upstairs. I can add to this a secretary separated for one whole week and the wife of a neighbor who started to play with me under the dinner table. Her husband saw that but got mad at her not me. One more is a women I met on a bus who did not wear a wedding band or have a white mark. Her husband caught us and that was when I found out she was married with two kids. I will not even mention the engaged women or ones in relationships with boyfriends. A good looking guy, some drinks and weed are all that was needed to lose all inhibitions and vows of sexual fidelity. There is a reason why the cheating rate for men is around 70% with the girls closing in fast. There is a reason why 53% of marriages end in divorce. Our system of monogamous marriages no longer is needed in modern times. Say what you will but why do so many people enter into marriage with those kind of odds when they would not even rent a car with a 53% chance of breaking down? I have been reading a lot of articles lately that perhaps we should change marriage vows to read till our love is no more rather than till death do we part. The death part was included at a time when most people died at 30 or less. We are actually serially monogamous going from one marriage to another. In my world we do not have to destroy the life we have with our spouses for a one night stand. We simple move on and show compersion for our spouse. Under monogamy I would have to destroy my life and that of my wife, go broke during the divorce, share custody of kids all because I had sex with another woman. We place way too much importance on sex. Does anyone get made if their spouse got pleasure from someone else's cooking? Sex can just be sex and not making love just like a hello kiss can be just a kiss and not a prelude to sex.

Just my opinion and 50 years experience with a lot of cheating women and men.

After all of that I gave up on monogamy. It seems to me that you take your marriage vows with a wink and a nod knowing that if the opportunity came around you would take it. All of this really put me off of monogamy. There are more but this is enough to prove my point that when it comes to sex, trust no one. Even you who say your spouse will never cheat are wrong. Does who do not worry about cheating are the easiest to fool and often wrong. Every boss I had, male and female, cheated on their spouses while on business trips with me. Our siblings cheated as did most of our friends.

We ended up in a polyfidelitous triad which worked well for us. I am married for 46 years because we discarded society's idea of the marriage structure and made us all believe that having sex with someone else is the ultimate betrayal but never told us why. We break other marriage vows so why is the sex one most important? I watched my wife have sex with guys and girls as she did me. The world did not end. We did not love each other less nor did it affection our emotional bond. We simply put our marriage and each other above all else, even monogamy. Monogamy never worked for me and I learned that the hard way. BTW, every girl that cheated on me cheated with one of my good friends. No one is to be trusted 100%.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

WildMustang said:


> I am monogamous.
> 
> I was with my husband for 28 years and I never once cheated on him, although I had many opportunities (as we all do).
> 
> I also waited until AFTER my divorce was final before I dated or had sex with another man. Divorce was final 9 months after I filed. Seems like a long time to go without sex, but that time flew by and I am glad I waited because I felt like it would be cheating to date or have sex because we were still legally married, even though the marriage was in the process of ending. (Actually, the marriage was over long before, but legally, we were still married).


Yes you were still married. While I knew my husband during his divorce(his wife had cheated and was divorcing him), there was no sex or anything near it, and he didn't ask me to marry him till after the divorce was over. His took 8 months I think. 
I knew there was no hope for his marriage, his ex made it clear that even if her affair ended she still wanted a divorce. As it happened the affair did end, on the day we got married.

I had been a single mum for 6 years by then, I dated a few men after 4 years but there was no sex, and like you I don't date until my marriage was legally over, even though that wasn't for over 2 years after we separated. 

Contrary to what people think, we don't die without sex.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Vinnydee said:


> There is a reason why the cheating rate for men is around 70% with the girls closing in fast. There is a reason why 53% of marriages end in divorce. Our system of monogamous marriages no longer is needed in modern times. Say what you will but why do so many people enter into marriage with those kind of odds when they would not even rent a car with a 53% chance of breaking down?


Very good question. People are not very good when it comes to assessing odds.



Vinnydee said:


> We place way too much importance on sex. Does anyone get made if their spouse got pleasure from someone else's cooking? Sex can just be sex and not making love just like a hello kiss can be just a kiss and not a prelude to sex.



Yes but how can you ensure that ‘sex remains just sex’ and does not cross over into love making? It looks the same from the outside...
Isn’t the flip side also likely? For people who don’t view sex as important or meaningful, isn’t it more likely that they also don’t find sex as meaningful and intimate with their partner?



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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Vinnydee said:


> My personal experience is that not one of my relationships/loves was monogamous. My ex fiancée cheated on me. My second love cheated on me. While my wife did not cheat on me she had a long term girlfriend and had sex with my best friend during a wife swap. When I was in-between relationships I had sex with married women. Even after I was married, four wives of my friends wanted to have sex with me. I was considered a hot guy back then. The first game me a massage (she was a licensed Masseuse) with a happy ending. The second offered oral sex without her false teeth. The third had me over to fix her computer when her husband was out of town and came into the den naked. The fourth rubbed my crotch and stuck her tongue in my mouth when I was helping her clean up after a party with her husband passed out drunk upstairs. I can add to this a secretary separated for one whole week and the wife of a neighbor who started to play with me under the dinner table. Her husband saw that but got mad at her not me. One more is a women I met on a bus who did not wear a wedding band or have a white mark. Her husband caught us and that was when I found out she was married with two kids. I will not even mention the engaged women or ones in relationships with boyfriends. A good looking guy, some drinks and weed are all that was needed to lose all inhibitions and vows of sexual fidelity. There is a reason why the cheating rate for men is around 70% with the girls closing in fast. There is a reason why 53% of marriages end in divorce. Our system of monogamous marriages no longer is needed in modern times. Say what you will but why do so many people enter into marriage with those kind of odds when they would not even rent a car with a 53% chance of breaking down? I have been reading a lot of articles lately that perhaps we should change marriage vows to read till our love is no more rather than till death do we part. The death part was included at a time when most people died at 30 or less. We are actually serially monogamous going from one marriage to another. In my world we do not have to destroy the life we have with our spouses for a one night stand. We simple move on and show compersion for our spouse. Under monogamy I would have to destroy my life and that of my wife, go broke during the divorce, share custody of kids all because I had sex with another woman. We place way too much importance on sex. Does anyone get made if their spouse got pleasure from someone else's cooking? Sex can just be sex and not making love just like a hello kiss can be just a kiss and not a prelude to sex.
> 
> Just my opinion and 50 years experience with a lot of cheating women and men.
> 
> ...


I have heard that the cheating rate is 50% and in the UK the divorce rate is 40%. Far far more couples who don't marry break up. 
No, many of us don't marry with a wink and a nod, we marry with the full intention of being faithful. For many of us faithfulness is one of the basic foundations of a marriage and sex is only to be for each other. Yes our system of marriage is still needed for today, more than ever. Just because so many aren't faithful doesn't mean marriage and faithfulness are not right and needed. It just means we have more selfishness, less integrity, less self control and less responsibility. It means that we have made sex into something is never should be. Into a casual meaningless recreation instead of an expression of love and commitment between 2 committed people. 

I am sad that you only seem to know cheaters, I know many people who are faithful, responsible and committed. Who have strong moral values and integrity. Who treat their spouses with respect and care.


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## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

sokillme said:


> I think if you want to be honest about it the most natural human emotion or thinking is selfishness.


I want to be honest about it, but I see so many acts of non-selfishness I conclude it is as natrual as selfishness. You can see it in other species, as well.


> The only case it's not is parent for child,


Not really, there is caring for peers, parents, mates. This is seen in some other species as well.


> and that is only because we are genetically programed to want to propagate ourselves.


If you believe in evolution, you do not believe we are programmed, or designed. 


> If we were to act on what ever was the most base natural action it would be like last man standing.


But we have many competing urges, and which are natural is pretty subjective.


> Which is why questions like this have no real meaning.
> 
> Everything is a choice.


These two I agree with.


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