# "Til Porn Do Us Part"



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Just saw this. Something to think about.

_A new study titled "Til Porn Do Us Part" suggests that adding pornography to a marriage doubles the likelihood of divorce._

Divorce rates double when people start watching porn | Science | AAAS


_"The new paper uses data from the 2006–2014 General Social Survey, a regular poll that asks thousands of Americans for their opinions on everything from national spending priorities to morality. Because the same people are polled several years in a row, researchers can track how attitudes, behaviors, and lifestyles change over time. To measure pornography use, the survey asked respondents—who also reported their relationship status—whether they had watched an X-rated movie in the past year. “There’s no perfect pornography question, but this one comes closest to the kind of question you ask that carries over time,” says study author and sociologist Samuel Perry of the University of Oklahoma (OU) in Norman. Out of 5698 respondents, 1681 said they had watched an X-rated movie and 373 reported viewing one for the first time during the survey period.

Analyzing the data, Perry and his OU colleague Cyrus Schleifer found that people who started watching porn were more likely to split with their partners during the course of the survey. For men, the chance of divorce went from 5% to 10%. For women, that number jumped from 6% to 18%."_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*That's a rather sobering study, that seems to have a lot of substance to it!*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *That's a rather sobering study, that seems to have a lot of substance to it!*


I'm certainly not a social scientist, arb, but I think so, too.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

jld said:


> Just saw this. Something to think about.


Thanks, JLD.

I've been doing a lot of work with Male Sexual Dysfunction (MSD) lately, so this post piqued my curiosity. Pornography has a vast amount of detrimental effects on males particularly, but this always poses problems for the relationship, in general. This is just another one of those things that can drive a wedge between partners, exacerbating or maintaining existing relational problems. We never look at one problem and derive our conclusions from it, but rather extend our vision to understand the underlying relational dynamics. For the relationship, in general, one may witness the man's romantic partner dealing with a lack of self-confidence, degraded personal image and lack of trust in the relationship. As it relates to sex, we will probably see conditioning of the male, leading to his inability to perform normally in the bedroom. Any developed anxiety tends to lead to a turtle-like effect, wherein there may be a communication breakdown. Think of it this way, if a man feels very vulnerable to sexual dysfunctions, he may fail to have the confidence to include his romantic partner to work on his problem but also work on the relationship. Besides "conditioning", the greatest empirically evident result is the advent of what is called "spectatoring" or assuming a "spectator role". Identifying with pornography leads the man to assume hardened traditionally masculine beliefs, along with becoming more self-critical. When the critic/spectator role is invoked, the individual is no longer in the first-person POV, but rather spectates their own intimate experiences.

I've yet to be able to validate usage of pornography that would include support from empirical research. That said, there might be room for some type of usage along specific lines with many limitations and exceptions. Until that day possibly comes, it is better to abstain from viewing and using pornography. I do have to mention that many couples report the usage of pornography, claiming it to be beneficial. Again, there might be some narrow room for this, but we have to ensure that we avoid the well-understood pitfalls. For the common couple, pornography may simply exacerbate already existing relational dysfunction. When heightened discord presents itself, individuals often find themselves further polarized, rather than finding the necessary catalyst to improve their relationship fundamentals.

The last word I have on this is that a lot of recent research has exposed exploding rates of male sexual dysfunction. Researchers strongly suspect that easy access to internet pornography to be the culprit. We know that rates of ED rise with age, but we are actually witnessing an explosion of MSD in young males. The takeaway to all of this would be for one to understand that "porn" isn't the cause but a factor that exacerbates and maintains existing dysfunction (relationship and sexual performance). Without accompanying factors like porn usage, many dysfunctions never present themselves when they otherwise would.

"****, I lost my erection!" might be an isolated incident without dysfunctional beliefs and conditioning. With hardened and conditioned beliefs, an individual that loses his erection might instantly resort to self-judgment, comparing himself to the porn pros he so regularly watches:

"He is always hard on-demand."

His romantic partner is often unaware, leaving the partner taking it personally and possibily attacking him, a true snowball effect.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

It doesn't surprise me.


But, here's the thing. Do the people for whom porn is a factor in choosing to divorce, really think they will find someone who doesn't use it----even semi-regularly? I think that is almost impossible at this point.

Men whose wives prefer porn to them seems incomprehensible to me. I think if a man had a wife who got off to porn on her own, or who insisted they watch porn during sex; could easily find another woman who didn't like porn at all.

For women, I don't think it's possible to find a "clean" guy. I'm probably projecting my own experiences for sure.

It's more a matter of degrees. There's a lady on TAM now whose husband eventually got to using animal porn. So yeah, animal porn, child porn, rape porn----I don't want to have sex with someone who finds that stuff acceptable or arousing, it's repellent. That's truly divorce worthy.


As for the rest, if you are a woman and you want to be married and have a life companion and sex partner, perhaps someone to have kids with; it seems to me that you have to accept the fact that to some degree, he will always be drooling after women in porn.

The price he pays for that is that there will always be a place in me that is not accessible to him sexually. And that I don't have full respect for him as a sexual man.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Thanks, JLD.
> 
> I've been doing a lot of work with Male Sexual Dysfunction (MSD) lately, so this post piqued my curiosity. Pornography has a vast amount of detrimental effects on males particularly, but this always poses problems for the relationship, in general. This is just another one of those things that can drive a wedge between partners, exacerbating or maintaining existing relational problems. We never look at one problem and derive our conclusions from it, but rather extend our vision to understand the underlying relational dynamics. For the relationship, in general, one may witness the man's romantic partner dealing with a lack of self-confidence, degraded personal image and lack of trust in the relationship. As it relates to sex, we will probably see conditioning of the male, leading to his inability to perform normally in the bedroom. Any developed anxiety tends to lead to a turtle-like effect, wherein there may be a communication breakdown. Think of it this way, if a man feels very vulnerable to sexual dysfunctions, he may fail to have the confidence to include his romantic partner to work on his problem but also work on the relationship. Besides "conditioning", the greatest empirically evident result is the advent of what is called "spectatoring" or assuming a "spectator role". Identifying with pornography leads the man to assume hardened traditionally masculine beliefs, along with becoming more self-critical. When the critic/spectator role is invoked, the individual is no longer in the first-person POV, but rather spectates their own intimate experiences.
> 
> ...


You're welcome, RT.

My daughter said that her male friends in college told her that they are unable to get hard without porn. Very sad that men in their early 20s are in that situation.

Luckily, there is a solution.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> It doesn't surprise me.
> 
> 
> But, here's the thing. Do the people for whom porn is a factor in choosing to divorce, really think they will find someone who doesn't use it----even semi-regularly? I think that is almost impossible at this point.
> ...


There clearly are men who do not use it, as evidenced by the thread I started in Men's Clubhouse. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/363193-men-if-you-do-not-look-porn-why.html

I am not convinced that the solution for marital issues is for women to lower their expectations.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

jld said:


> I am not convinced that the solution for marital issues is for women to lower their expectations.




I hope that you are right and I am wrong. How I would love to be wrong about this.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't reject the findings but it is a very difficult study to do correctly. When you look at the people who started watching porn, some will have an external cause that also directly impacts their relationship. Really difficult to imagine a double-blind experiment....

Still it seems plausible. Some watchers will get addicted, directly causing relationship problems. Others will turn to porn rather than try to solve existing problems with their sex life.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

jld said:


> There clearly are men who do not use it, as evidenced by the thread I started in Men's Clubhouse. http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/363193-men-if-you-do-not-look-porn-why.html
> 
> I am not convinced that the solution for marital issues is for women to lower their expectations.


In Gottman's 7 Principles book, he highlights a researcher that "debunked" the claim that couples should have no expectations in their relationship. I, however, attack the notion of primarily working off a framework inclusive of expectations, but rather *standards*, thus he and I agree in principle. There, we ensure our relationships fall along objectively healthy lines, not arbitrary expectations/demands. The worst thing one can do is sweep genuine issues under the rug. Porn offers easy erections and the promise of quick orgasms, without any of that work necessary to enjoy both with the romantic partner. The strength needed to abolish pornography will lead to a general improvement in his Emotional Intelligence. If one can put off the urge to view porn, and/or masturbate, they can also participate in many other uncomfortable but, ultimately rewarding, components, as well. Doing so would also greatly help the couple expanding their sexual script, leading to the necessary inclusion of sexual encounters that don't include penetration, something that research finds highly critical for couples to employ.

I'd say to women that they should not "expect" a man to persistently view pornography. He is not a lost cause and many rewards are conferred to those that push through this particular issue. The issue couples find themselves in now is that the male has been watching pornography since his teen years, well before he got married or met his romantic partner. His participation with internet pornography is likely not on the radar of bad/destructive behaviors, something that requires a lot of finesse in tackling. The solution is NOT narrowly focused, but rather encompasses a broad array of components. Often this requires working directly with the couple and each individual alone. There is probably a measurable degree of disconnection (a wedge) if the man is regularly viewing pornography. Connection is the #1 fuel for healthy relationships, which I would say is the dominant cause for success or failure.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Relationship Teacher said:


> As it relates to sex, we will probably see conditioning of the male, leading to his inability to perform normally in the bedroom.
> 
> The last word I have on this is that a lot of recent research has exposed exploding rates of male sexual dysfunction. Researchers strongly suspect that easy access to internet pornography to be the culprit.



My husband [apparently] could stay erect for a very long time with his first sexual partner.


For various reasons, he only had 1 brief sexual encounter in the next 8 years.

During that time. Porn was his sexual partner. Frequent and rapid masturbation, including at work, to pornography.


Our ENTIRE relationship has been fraught with the problem [for me, not really a problem for him, I guess], of premature ejaculation.

It's been awful.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I hope that you are right and I am wrong. How I would love to be wrong about this.


(((notmyrealname)))

You are such a dear. I am so sorry your husband does not make more efforts for you.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Relationship Teacher said:


> Porn offers *easy erections and the promise of quick orgasms, *without any of that work necessary to enjoy both with the romantic partner. The strength needed to abolish pornography will lead to a general improvement in his Emotional Intelligence. * If one can put off the urge to view porn, and/or masturbate, *they can also participate in many other uncomfortable but, ultimately rewarding, components, as well.



Yes, this is the nice enlightened version.

But when the rubber meets the road in Realitysville, men WANT to watch pornography.

The easy erections and quick orgasms are because they love what they are watching; and the physicality of the women doing it.

They haven't the slightest interest in "putting off the urge" lol.

If you do, congratulations. Believe me, I greatly admire you, and men like you.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I don't reject the findings but it is a very difficult study to do correctly. When you look at the people who started watching porn, some will have an external cause that also directly impacts their relationship. Really difficult to imagine a double-blind experiment....


It really isn't. They often revolve around a survey, telling participants they are after a different goal. However, most of the data come from direct work with individuals and couples seeking treatment. Much of the data also comes from EEG and fMRI studies, of course with controls and neutral stimuli. 

You are absolutely right, there will always be accompanying factors. When a treatment or approach is narrowly focused, relapse rates are absurdly high.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

I think why porn is so popular for many men, is that it is a fantasy, and a means of escaping stresses, etc. Porn doesn't show two people fighting, and then making up. Doesn't show the day to day stuff that couples deal with. It just shows a very eager and willing woman to do just about anything for the guy she's having sex with. They should factor in that these women are being paid for to act out a part. lol It is a fantasy that the guy is really getting off on, and fantasies always pull us away from reality. Affairs are the same way. Many people have affairs because they are an escape from their troubled lives and marriages. But, many people find out that once they leave their spouse for their affair partner, the relationships often end quickly, because the affair has now become the new reality, and you just have a whole new set of problems with the new person. 

So, porn isn't reality, no woman is going to perform sex on demand with her spouse, and no guy is either. But men who watch it on a regular basis, start wondering why their wives aren't as eager, and aren't willing to do all of the bedroom gymnastics seen in porn lol Because your wife is a real person, in your real life. The chick in the porn is just an actress getting paid to supply a fantasy. The relationship aspect is missing in porn, and so it's a really deceptive thing, IMO, and why so many people get sucked into making it a regular habit.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I found this part of the article interesting... questioning that last part.. not sure if it has to do with religion.. but an openness about sex , intimacy... and not feeling one is putting it over the other...



> The younger the respondent, the more likely they were to get a divorce after starting to view porn. In contrast, porn and divorce showed a weaker link in people who attended an organized worship service at least once a week and said they were religious. The latter finding surprised the researchers, who initially thought that that adding pornography into more religious marriages would lead to higher rates of divorce.


 When we were just married...I put in a porn disk after ordering condoms from Adam & Eve...I was curious.. it was hard core.. we both hated it... it totally disgusted [email protected]#.. had more than 2 people, wasn't romantic.. He never liked that sort of thing either.. 

So I always had a bad taste in my mouth on it.. but then in mid life, suddenly I wanted to look upon it in the worst way....everything about SEX.. .I wanted to try new things, spice it up & down... but still I wanted the more Romantic porn.. I always loved a heated erotic scene in the movies anyway.. this just took it a step further..

So then I rented it.. I sought out all the "instructional videos".. like those on Lovingsex.com  geared towards couples .... 

It DIDN'T hurt us... it was a whole lot of fun!! Maybe I should be ashamed.....he liked a different sort of Video over me..(Just women.. I found stuff for him too).... and a lot of it was just awful (Hard core, disrespectful), can't tell by what is on the label of these flicks..... put the DVD in.. and out it goes !

I just want to speak honestly here.. If my husband was religious and judged me over this.. I honesty think THAT would have torn us apart ..... the fact we both feel the same about intimacy (the more the better) but still enjoy some erotic viewing -on occasion.. (Heck haven't watched anything in months now)...

This I feel makes all the difference, on how a couple feels on it.. what works for them...


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I don't reject the findings but it is a very difficult study to do correctly. When you look at the people who started watching porn, some will have an external cause that also directly impacts their relationship. Really difficult to imagine a double-blind experiment....
> 
> Still it seems plausible. Some watchers will get addicted, directly causing relationship problems. Others will turn to porn rather than try to solve existing problems with their sex life.


Correct

It is interesting that it starts part way through the marriage. This makes my sociology degree sense tingle on what reasons these spouses turn to porn. What problems existed in the first place? Loss of attraction, stale sex life, curiosity ? 

Sort of like looking at why someone depressed turns to alcohol without knowing why they are depressed in the first place.

Still as with porn, or alcohol or whatever some will have a problem with these things and others won't. Hopefully those with problems will get help


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

*Solely from a quasi-statistical standpoint, I've been married twice, with both W's, at some point in time, insisting on watching some of these VHS movies (that should quickly infer just how old I am) as "aids," but it seemed to make them so much more hornier than I ever got from viewing them! 

I never ever encouraged either of them! Even my RSXW, just as with her first H, even wanted to video us "at work," but I strenuously objected!

Analysis: two XW's who like watching those things who slid of the deep end into adulterous affairs!

If there ever is a third Mrs. Arb, well let's just say that if I have anything to say about it, we won't be viewing those things together!

In a committed marriage, I should look upon my W as my very own "personal pornography," and would totally hope that she, in turn, should look upon me as hers!*


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Correct
> 
> It is interesting that it starts part way through the marriage. This makes my sociology degree sense tingle on what reasons these spouses turn to porn. What problems existed in the first place? Loss of attraction, stale sex life, curiosity ?
> 
> ...




How does this read?




> Correct
> 
> It is interesting that it starts part way through the marriage. This makes my sociology degree sense tingle on what reasons these spouses turn to* having affairs*. What problems existed in the first place? Loss of attraction, stale sex life, curiosity ?
> 
> ...




It's blame the victim time, huh?

Of course if it's a physical affair, that would never wash.

But if it's a virtual affair with porn----it's the spouse's fault.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> How does this read?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It reads like someone is triggering and looking to start an argument and a ridiculous one at that. If you want to compare looking at porn and someone having an affair then good luck to you. As someone who has been cheated on I wish she had only looked at porn.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> It reads like someone is triggering and looking to start an argument and a ridiculous one at that. If you want to compare looking at porn and someone having an affair then good luck to you. As someone who has been cheated on I wish she had only looked at porn.




If you suggest that people whose partners gorge on porn are in some way to blame; then you are stepping on toes. And you are starting an argument.

I know that it is not "allowed" to compare porn to having an affair. Well, f. that.

There are physical affairs, emotional affairs----and virtual affairs.

Virtual affairs where a significant amount of a person's sexual energy, focus and release is spent on porn. Virtual affairs that result in men being increasingly dissatisfied with their "real" partners.

And that_ is_ painful. Thanks for wishing me luck over it.


And I would NEVER minimize the pain that a person [such as yourself], whose partner physically [?] cheated on them must feel.

BUT, nor would I suggest on an internet forum, that, ya know;there must be something about your sexual personality that caused it to happen. 'Cause my sociology training is tingling about it.


Think of any-and-all insecurities that you have about your physical appearance and sexual prowess.

Imagine a partner who chooses to watch porn over coming to bed with you. Or watches porn within hours of having sex with you. Or TELLS you that she prefers watching guys with full heads of hair in her porn of preference.....and you're going bald. Or she likes really tall guys.......and you're on the short side of average.

But, she tells you, it's okay----even though those are the *really* sexy guys that are kind of _amazing_; you're okay Wolf, I mean you're a great guy and I love you. You're just not great in "that' kind of way. But don't worry, it doesn't mean anything. And besides, you'd better get used to it, because this is what women do.

I'm sure you'd be just fine with it, right?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: &quot;Til Porn Do Us Part&quot;*



notmyrealname4 said:


> It's blame the victim time, huh?
> 
> Of course if it's a physical affair, that would never wash.
> 
> But if it's a virtual affair with porn----it's the spouse's fault.



It's interesting you bring up the equivalency of infidelity to porn use in a marriage. As a biochemist, I read a lot of scientific literature. Some of the most interesting things I've read relates to brain chemistry and porn. 

Studies have shown that when someone is in a healthy sexual relationship , oxytocin is released into the brain. "Oxytocin is known to increase feelings of attachment, connection, and trust." It's naturally released during sex.

Watching porn triggers the release of oxytocin as well, effectively bonding the person to that experience. Over time, the bond becomes stronger and stronger literally bonding the watcher to a sexual experience coming from a computer screen, not from their partner. 

Same thing happens when a person is cheating. The release of Oxy causes them to bind to their affair partner. 

People who advocate divorce due to infidelity but in the same breath say that destroying a marriage because of a partner's porn use is selfish, don't understand this concept. They are both equally heart wrenching and painful to the person being pushed aside in preference for someone else, whether IRL or on a computer screen. 




Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

I have never had firsthand conversations with women about porn, so my experiences there are limited. In fact, TAM is my first ever communication with opposite-sex posters on this at all. If my wife ever looks through my browser history let there be no doubt she will be curious what prompted the links I have clicked on from here. 

What I have learned (opinion only) about from many guy conversations in and around porn through the years is in the younger group,(under 40), it's about the hotness of the action watching it (hot bods and libido) and not much more as demonstrated by the shared conversations. 

In the older group (over 40), it seems a much different animal and more about watching what is perceived as people actually still enjoying it (especially watching women seeming to enjoy it), and more so their age group as opposed to 20-somethings in action.

Porn is an more an emotional crutch than an animalistic drive it seems for some couples then in the later years, making up for lost connections and desires within lost growth in what is still a very vital and emotional area of shared physical pleasure and bond. Especially in an older group, we all want validation for our feelings and desires that demonstrates we are not wrong in said feelings when we feel rejected, attempting to create a lost connection though self-maintenance.

Of course, my assessments are not a one size fits all in the least, since nothing ever does.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> My husband [apparently] could stay erect for a very long time with his first sexual partner.
> 
> 
> For various reasons, he only had 1 brief sexual encounter in the next 8 years.
> ...


Premature Ejaculation(PE) in men is a more complex problem than most envision it to be. For males that suffer from Male Erectile Dysfunction (MED) for longer periods of time, the ischiocavernous muscles (ICM) go through real atrophy. This impacts the ability to maintain and achieve erection, while being a key component in ejaculation. ICM contractions are key for building penile pressure (ICP) beyond the systolic pressure, along with giving control to manage ejaculation. There is often a psychological and physiological component to PE. Any sympathetic nervous system (SNS) involvement can lead to immediate ejaculation.



> Yes, this is the nice enlightened version.
> 
> But when the rubber meets the road in Realitysville, men WANT to watch pornography.
> 
> ...


The #1 factor is urge, desire or will to improve. I either work directly with the man or the woman to get this result. It is always critical, however, that the man's partner is included. As you noted, he may not see any reason to forgo the excitement of porn surfing. One clinical report identified a man suffering MED, only achieving erection by having multiple videos playing at the same time. It started with soft porn and escalated (necessarily) due to conditioning. Treating porn use includes many of the same components used in treating substance abuse. In fact, one of the popular models was adapted from a substance abuse model.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> If you suggest that people whose partners gorge on porn are in some way to blame; then you are stepping on toes. And you are starting an argument.
> 
> I suggested no such thing you are making up stuff completely out of left field now and probably deliberate
> 
> ...


Actually you are making assumptions and trying to start arguments. I didn't asses blame to anyone you are drawing that correlation on that. Not taking the bait of someone telling me how I feel on a subject. Most of what you are saying I am implying here I never said and I have been on record many times here agreeing that some men and women do in fact have issues with porn..but not all do.

Only thing I don't agree with is that porn use equals a physical affair. If you think so great not everyone will agree with you though I certainly don't


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> It is interesting that *it starts part way through the marriage*. This makes my sociology degree sense tingle on *what reasons these spouses turn to porn*. What problems existed in the first place? * Loss of attraction, stale sex life*, curiosity ?


So,* being completely honest*, you were not implying in any way, shape or form; that when a partner starts using porn after a relationship starts, that it isn't somehow their SO's fault. You know, they somehow became less attractive or provided a "stale" sex life.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I step away for a few hours and now there are a bazillion porn threads on TAM :smthumbup:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Relationship Teacher said:


> In Gottman's 7 Principles book, he highlights a researcher that "debunked" the claim that couples should have no expectations in their relationship. I, however, attack the notion of primarily working off a framework inclusive of expectations, but rather *standards*, thus he and I agree in principle. There, we ensure our relationships fall along objectively healthy lines, not arbitrary expectations/demands. The worst thing one can do is sweep genuine issues under the rug. Porn offers easy erections and the promise of quick orgasms, without any of that work necessary to enjoy both with the romantic partner. The strength needed to abolish pornography will lead to a general improvement in his Emotional Intelligence. If one can put off the urge to view porn, and/or masturbate, they can also participate in many other uncomfortable but, ultimately rewarding, components, as well. Doing so would also greatly help the couple expanding their sexual script, leading to the necessary inclusion of sexual encounters that don't include penetration, something that research finds highly critical for couples to employ.
> 
> I'd say to women that they should not "expect" a man to persistently view pornography. He is not a lost cause and many rewards are conferred to those that push through this particular issue. The issue couples find themselves in now is that the male has been watching pornography since his teen years, well before he got married or met his romantic partner. His participation with internet pornography is likely not on the radar of bad/destructive behaviors, something that requires a lot of finesse in tackling. The solution is NOT narrowly focused, but rather encompasses a broad array of components. Often this requires working directly with the couple and each individual alone. There is probably a measurable degree of disconnection (a wedge) if the man is regularly viewing pornography. Connection is the #1 fuel for healthy relationships, which I would say is the dominant cause for success or failure.


I disagree the solution is not narrowly focused. Quitting porn is a big part of getting sexually healthy again.


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## Hellomynameis (Dec 16, 2016)

I agree with the poster who mentioned the fantasy aspect of it. I think that's a big part of the difference between men and women. 

If you compare the kinds of things most men and women use to get aroused, men prefer visual without a plot. A woman who is willing to do anything sexually and there is literally nothing more to the store.

What many people refer to as female porn - romance and erotica novels - yes, there's sex, but there is also love, romance, angst, and no matter how lousy it may be, a PLOT. Oftentimes a plot with a lot of painful elements. Two people coming together to "complete" each other and live happily ever after. Whereas completely visual porn is just people using each other. Which is a big part of what I find objectionable about it. 

It's no surprise to me that the internet porn- and 50 Shades-raised generation has a hard time connecting and making a relationship work. The two sexes have been conditioned by their chosen form of media to have two entirely different sets of expectations. Neither of which is realistic.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> It reads like someone is triggering and looking to start an argument and a ridiculous one at that. If you want to compare looking at porn and someone having an affair then good luck to you. As someone who has been cheated on I wish she had only looked at porn.


I get your point and I personally think porn is not equivalent to a physical affair, even though I think porn use is bad for relationships and can be a form a infidelity.

There are various forms, including what we call financial infidelity.

But hierarchies of infidelities are subjective.....some think EA'so are every bit as bad as PA's, while others disagree.

Maybe since you've experienced a wife's PA you might think that if she'd only had an EA that would be better, I don't know. 

The bar of what looks pretty good is influenced by what's happened to us. 

But I don't think notmyrealname is wrong in that nobody would suggest it was partly the spouses fault if a PA or EA was involved (betrayed spouses in TAM are saints), but there does seem to be different rules for porn.


If hubby watches too much porn wife is often told to step it up in the bedroom.

Nobody tells a betrayed hb that if he was taking care of business his wife wouldn't have gone elsewhere.

At least not here in TAM. There just seems to be so much personal investment in porn that it's hard to have a rational discussion about it.

It can be every bit as damaging as other kinds of affairs.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> So,* being completely honest*, you were not implying in any way, shape or form; that when a partner starts using porn after a relationship starts, that it isn't somehow their SO's fault. You know, they somehow became less attractive or provided a "stale" sex life.


Correct


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

lifeistooshort said:


> I get your point and I personally think porn is not equivalent to a physical affair, even though I think porn use is bad for relationships and can be a form a infidelity.
> 
> There are various forms, including what we call financial infidelity.
> 
> ...


I have no doubt and I repeat again that I respect when someone is in pain that it is real what they feel. What I resent when I am told I am wrong in my opinion on the matter. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but apparently not here sometimes which is confounding .


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> I have no doubt and I repeat again that I respect when someone is in pain that it is real what they feel. *What I resent when I am told I am wrong in my opinion on the matter. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but apparently not here sometimes which is confounding* .


Instead of seeing it as someone telling you you're wrong, view it as someone "failing to see your logic, if it can even be called that". :/

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> Instead of seeing it as someone telling you you're wrong, view it as someone "failing to see your logic, if it can even be called that". :/
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


An opinion isn't logic. It is just that an opinion. So my opinion on something gets to trump your opinion on something because it doesn't follow my view of logic? Is that what you're saying?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> An opinion isn't logic. It is just that an opinion. So my opinion on something gets to trump your opinion on something because it doesn't follow my view of logic? Is that what you're saying?


No, I'm just using the same words you used towards me when you tried to tell me my opinion was illogical, a.k.a. wrong. Just saying. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Lila said:


> No, I'm just using the same words you used towards me when you tried to tell me my opinion was illogical, a.k.a. wrong. Just saying.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


lol good grief. i was trying to understand your opinion. Please quote where I said your opinion is wrong


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: &amp;quot;Til Porn Do Us Part&amp;quot;*



Wolf1974 said:


> lol good grief. i was trying to understand your opinion. Please quote where I said your opinion is wrong


I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were saying I was wrong with your 'if it can even be called logic'. The only other option is that you were being condescending. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

*Re: &amp;quot;Til Porn Do Us Part&amp;quot;*



Lila said:


> I was giving you the benefit of the doubt and assumed you were saying I was wrong with your 'if it can even be called logic'. The only other *option* is that you were being condescending.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


Or you were assuming when I was trying to understand what your thought process. Guess I thought we were on the same page but guess not. So I guess asking questions with sincerity isn't ok. maybe you could try reading what I wrote from a position of trying to get clariity?


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

*Re: &amp;quot;Til Porn Do Us Part&amp;quot;*



Wolf1974 said:


> Or you were assuming when I was trying to understand what your thought process. Guess I thought we were on the same page but guess not. So I guess asking questions with sincerity isn't ok. maybe you could try reading what I wrote from a position of trying to get clariity?


Sure but maybe in the future you can try using less condescending language. Instead of saying 'I really fail to follow this logic_ if it is that at all_', you can cut it off at 'I really fail to follow this logic'. Period because the rest of it really is condescending. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

*Re: &amp;quot;Til Porn Do Us Part&amp;quot;*



Lila said:


> Sure but maybe in the future you can try using less condescending language. Instead of saying 'I really fail to follow this logic_ if it is that at all_', you can cut it off at 'I really fail to follow this logic'. Period because the rest of it really is condescending.
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


I will if you will try and not assume the worse. We have had really good dialog in the past so shocked your first assumption was I was saying something snide when I wasn't. Sorry you took it that way was really just trying to understand


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

Isnt the porn, in the cases here, a symptom rather than the problem. I think that this study should say, of likely couples who are destined to divorce, half of them end up using porn towards the end of their marriage.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Herschel said:


> Isnt the porn, in the cases here, a symptom rather than the problem. I think that this study should say, of likely couples who are destined to divorce, half of them end up using porn towards the end of their marriage.


It can be, just like affairs can be a symptom of a troubled marriage.

And porn, just like affairs, can be trouble in and of itself.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

jld said:


> It can be, just like affairs can be a symptom of a troubled marriage.
> 
> And porn, just like affairs, can be trouble in and of itself.


I think porn, like violent video games are always a symptom and rarely the problem. It's the addiction that is the issue or living vicariously or having other issues that draw you to it.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> If you suggest that people whose partners gorge on porn are in some way to blame; then you are stepping on toes. And you are starting an argument.
> 
> I know that it is not "allowed" to compare porn to having an affair. Well, f. that.
> 
> ...


Actually, he didn't make that suggestion. You did. Then tried to twist it round so it looked like he made that suggestion. Which he didn't.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

MattMatt said:


> Actually, he didn't make that suggestion. You did. Then tried to twist it round so it looked like he made that suggestion. Which he didn't.





I think he did make that suggestion. 

And you disagree with me. There it is.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

jld said:


> Analyzing the data, Perry and his OU colleague Cyrus Schleifer found that people who started watching porn were more likely to split with their partners during the course of the survey. For men, the chance of divorce went from 5% to 10%. For women, that number jumped from 6% to 18%."[/I]


Therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that failing marriages may *lead to* more porn use. Logical.


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

*&quot;Til Porn Do Us Part&quot;*

.


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

jld said:


> I disagree the solution is not narrowly focused. Quitting porn is a big part of getting sexually healthy again.


Let me clarify, JLD. A narrow approach would be to only tell the man he has to give up the porn usage, and not addressing something such as principles of sexual communication between partners. If we immediately tackle him on the issue, his guard will never come down. Thus, we connect (husband to partner) and disarm. Often, a man turns to porn when his wife is pregnant or when the child is a newborn, due to a relative lack of sex. He may feel entitled or as if it is something he must do. There is almost always going to be a defensive barrier, which requires a very broad approach.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

notmyrealname4;[B said:


> 17163329]I think he did make that suggestion.
> [/B]
> And you disagree with me. There it is.


Nope and no matter what your problem is you will not get me to say something I didn't say or don't believe.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Let's suppose that a couple has problems in their marriage, including a cessation of sex, because of insert reasons here.

Then one spouse starts using porn because they find themselves in a sexless marriage.

The other spouse learns of the porn use and, by a prodigious feat of sociological reverse engineering they "prove" to themselves that the problem in their marriage *wasn't* insert reasons here but their spouse's use of porn! 

And _{{{{gasp!}}}}_ there's now a report that proves that their evil, vile spouse's use of porn was what killed the marriage! And that they can forget all about insert reasons here which, clearly, wasn't the root cause of the problem!

Or put it another way. Just suppose that a mean mouthed spouse causes their partner to have severe self-esteem issues.

So their abused spouse starts to comfort eat to compensate for this problem.

Eventually, mean mouth spouse notices the rising weight of their spouse and says: "Oh, my! You are fat! And I know what is the root cause of your fatness! Cheese! Cheese was your downfall!"


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Wolf1974 said:


> Nope *and no matter what your problem is *you will not get me to say something I didn't say or don't believe.




I believe you are being disingenuous.


You believe that I have some kind of a problem. 


Okay.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I believe you are being disingenuous.
> 
> 
> You believe that I have some kind of a problem.
> ...


Moderator note:

No more threadjacks, please.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Some watchers will get addicted, directly causing relationship problems. Others will turn to porn rather than try to solve existing problems with their sex life.


I just recently read about a doctor (medical/PhD.) whose client base is mostly young men in their 20's with ED because of their obsessive use of porn. They are unhappy and feel out of control. They can't hold on to a REAL relationship with a woman. 

The problems in a marriage that exist because of porn don't statistically begin within marriage. They start WELL BEFORE marriage.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Vega said:


> I just recently read about a doctor (medical/PhD.) whose client base is mostly young men in their 20's with ED because of their obsessive use of porn. They are unhappy and feel out of control. They can't hold on to a REAL relationship with a woman.
> 
> *The problems in a marriage that exist because of porn don't statistically begin within marriage. They start WELL BEFORE marriage.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> That was my thought as well from studies I have seen. People who have an unhealthy view or porn and sexuality tend to have it for a very long time. So this study which showes it come 2-4 years inside an otherwise healthy realtionship does make me curious how or why does it start then.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Vega said:


> I just recently read about a doctor (medical/PhD.) whose client base is mostly young men in their 20's with ED because of their obsessive use of porn. They are unhappy and feel out of control. They can't hold on to a REAL relationship with a woman.
> 
> The problems in a marriage that exist because of porn don't statistically begin within marriage. They start WELL BEFORE marriage.


I think @Lila posted something similar to this is another thread from a Reddit thread she came across. It would be interesting to see statistically how much of a problem this is (i.e. is this a growing number of men or is it just a handful of men who in general have difficulties with addiction). 

Stating before marriage, does that take into account the time the couple were together prior to marriage, or is this stating the porn issue was present prior to the couple even becoming an item? You could have a couple that dated for 5 years before they got married, the problems could have started during this time for a variety of reasons. Just trying to break things down, and simply stating "before marriage" would seem to imply that the relationship only really started with marriage.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

We've all heard the stats that say a couple who lives together before marriage is more likely to divorce. I've always wondered if that was because those couples were having troubles, were too invested to walk, and got married because they thought marriage would be some magical solution. Much like people have been known to have babies in an attempt to save a failing marriage.

I think this study is similar. We know that porn use is associated with increased divorce rates, but we don't know exactly why. We don't know why the couple divorced or what, if anything, porn use had to do with that.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I think @Lila posted something similar to this is another thread from a Reddit thread she came across. It would be interesting to see statistically how much of a problem this is (i.e. is this a growing number of men or is it just a handful of men who in general have difficulties with addiction).
> 
> Stating before marriage, does that take into account the time the couple were together prior to marriage, or is this stating the porn issue was present prior to the couple even becoming an item? You could have a couple that dated for 5 years before they got married, the problems could have started during this time for a variety of reasons. Just trying to break things down, and simply stating "before marriage" would seem to imply that the relationship only really started with marriage.


From what I've been reading, it seems that the problems began BEFORE the couple was a couple. The men have reported that they began to masturbate at 12-15 years old, discovered* porn around the same time, and became "hooked". (It's not clear whether their masturbatory 'habit' began as something at a 'normal' frequency before their discovery of porn, or if they discovered porn FIRST and the porn seemed to 'take over' their habit)

In any case, it seemed that many of the men had the belief that once they married, their porn habit would disappear. They believed that with a 'solid' relationship and "regular" sex, they would no longer 'need' porn. 

In all honesty Ellis, I don't know of a lot of men who "turn to porn" for the FIRST time,--literally, NEVER having used it/viewed it before-- while married or in an LTR because of sexual issues. I'm sure SOME have done this but as to the stats...? 

P.S. Happy New Year, Ellis!


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

@Vega

This Review was published in August of 2016 and discusses the trends in prevalence of ED in men under 40. 

Here are some of the key stats:


_"Up until the last decade, rates of ED were low in sexually active men under 40, and did not begin to rise steeply until thereafter [1,2]. A 1999 major cross-sectional study reported erectile dysfunction in 5%, and low sexual desire in 5% of sexually active men, ages 18 to 59 [3], and a 2002 meta-analysis of erectile-dysfunction studies reported consistent rates of 2% in men under 40 (except for the preceding study) [2]. These data were gathered before Internet “porn tube sites” enabled wide access to sexually explicit videos with no download required. The first of these “tube sites” appeared in September 2006 [4]."_

_"In contrast, recent studies on ED and low sexual desire document a sharp increase in prevalence of such dysfunctions in men under 40.....the Global Study of Sexual Attitudes and Behavior (GSSAB)....[found that] in just a decade, things changed radically. The 2001–2002 rates for older men 40–80 were about 13% in Europe [5]. By 2011, ED rates in young Europeans, 18–40, ranged from 14%–28% [6]"._

Here were some other studies:


In 2012, Swiss researchers found ED rates of 30% in a cross-section of Swiss men aged 18–24 using the International Index of Erectile Function (IIEF-5) [8]. 
A 2013 Italian study reported one in four patients seeking help for new onset ED were younger than 40, with rates of severe ED nearly 10% higher than in men over 40 [9].
A 2014 study on Canadian adolescents reported that 53.5% of males aged 16–21 had symptoms indicative of a sexual problem [10]. Erectile dysfunction was the most common (26%), followed by low sexual desire (24%), and problems with orgasm (11%). 
Another 2015 study on men (mean age approximately 36), reported that ED accompanied by a low desire for partnered sex is now a common observation in clinical practice among men seeking help for their excessive sexual behavior, who frequently “use pornography and masturbate” [15].

But the one that caught my attention was this one:

_"A 2016 study by this same group assessed sexual problems in *adolescents (16–21 years) in five waves over a two-year period. For males, persistent problems (in at least one wave) were low sexual satisfaction (47.9%), low desire (46.2%), and problems in erectile function (45.3%).* The researchers noted that over time rates of sexual problems declined for females, but not for males [11]"._

The ages of the men suffering ED is astounding to me.

The review goes on to explain how porn is affecting the incidents of ED. Interesting read for anyone who has the time.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Vega said:


> From what I've been reading, it seems that the problems began BEFORE the couple was a couple. The men have reported that they began to masturbate at 12-15 years old, discovered* porn around the same time, and became "hooked". (It's not clear whether their masturbatory 'habit' began as something at a 'normal' frequency before their discovery of porn, or if they discovered porn FIRST and the porn seemed to 'take over' their habit)
> 
> *In any case, it seemed that many of the men had the belief that once they married, their porn habit would disappear. They believed that with a 'solid' relationship and "regular" sex, they would no longer 'need' porn. *
> 
> ...


This was my assumption and for large part my reality as well. I used porn often as I could before I had sex as a teen. Once I was having sex and married by in large I stopped. When life got in the way and sex slowed I would use it on occasion. When single after divorce I would use it again often and then let it go after I got in another relationship. So it's always been a filler for me and not a main source. Can't say I understand why some choose the hand over the real thing but they do and that's not going to make a healthy relationship .


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Vega said:


> From what I've been reading, it seems that the problems began BEFORE the couple was a couple. The men have reported that they began to masturbate at 12-15 years old, discovered* porn around the same time, and became "hooked". (It's not clear whether their masturbatory 'habit' began as something at a 'normal' frequency before their discovery of porn, or if they discovered porn FIRST and the porn seemed to 'take over' their habit)
> 
> In any case, it seemed that many of the men had the belief that once they married, their porn habit would disappear. They believed that with a 'solid' relationship and "regular" sex, they would no longer 'need' porn.
> 
> ...


I do know several guys in marriages who have said they would have little to no interest in porn if their sex life with their W was ok. I can tell you personally I would have little interest/need for porn if I actually had what resembled a sex life with my W (keep in mind though, I generally don't watch porn for other reasons). At least from what I have seen, I don't think it is uncommon for someone to turn to porn as an avenue when needs are not being met within the relationship. That said, I do believe that porn is/will become a growing problem in relationships, so I am not discounting its impact. It is something I have in the back of my head over the coming years as my boys get older and creep towards the teenage years.

Happy New Year to You Too Vega


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

jld said:


> Just saw this. Something to think about.
> 
> _A new study titled "Til Porn Do Us Part" suggests that adding pornography to a marriage doubles the likelihood of divorce._
> 
> ...



Only reason I watch porn from time to time, is I'm going crazy from only having sex 1x month with Mrs.CuddleBug.

I want to try everything but she only wants to give me some oral and straight to dry doggie. That's it.

I take care of myself were as she does not.

If Mrs.CuddleBug took care of herself and had a high adventurous sex drive, we would match and we might watch porn together or there would be zero porn. But for me, I'd be a very happy guy and I'd forget about porn quickly, which does happen with me.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> This was my assumption and for large part my reality as well. I used porn often as I could before I had sex as a teen. Once I was having sex and married by in large I stopped. When life got in the way and sex slowed I would use it on occasion. When single after divorce I would use it again often and then let it go after I got in another relationship. So it's always been a filler for me and not a main source. *Can't say I understand why some choose the hand over the real thing but they do and that's not going to make a healthy relationship *.


This is what I don't understand. 

Why is masturbation, while in a relationship, is so TABOO???

Most of us masturbate BEFORE having sex. Our 'urges' for an orgasm don't seem to have anything to do with whether or not we're in any kind of relationship. But somewhere along the line, we get the idea that masturbation is "wrong", and the ONLY way that we're "supposed" to satisfy that 'urge' is through sex.

Why IS that?


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Vega said:


> This is what I don't understand.
> 
> Why is masturbation, while in a relationship, is so TABOO???
> 
> ...


Well sex is a bonding experience. You get a lot more than a simple sexual release having sex. I don't think masterbation is wrong Just don't understand why someone would purposely choose that over a loving partner in a loving relationship


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## Relationship Teacher (Jan 3, 2016)

Herschel said:


> I think porn, like violent video games are always a symptom and rarely the problem. It's the addiction that is the issue or living vicariously or having other issues that draw you to it.


Sure, THE problem can lead to porn usage, which, however, can create new problems or exacerbate existing ones.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well sex is a bonding experience. You get a lot more than a simple sexual release having sex. I don't think masterbation is wrong Just don't understand why someone would purposely choose that over a loving partner in a loving relationship


For some of us partnered sex is better than masturbation, full stop. I would (and have) take ONS or FWB sex over masturbation any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Why is masturbation taboo in many relationships, @Vega? Probably because a lot of people believe that all sexual energy should be directed toward one's partner whenever possible.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well sex is a bonding experience. You get a lot more than a simple sexual release having sex. I don't think masterbation is wrong Just don't understand why someone would purposely choose that over a loving partner in a loving relationship


This is the way I see it. 

Everyone's sexuality is _extremely_ *personal*. My own biological "urges" for an orgasm have NOTHING to do with who I'm with. I'd have those physical "urges" whether I'm with someone or not. And, I have had them at, shall I say, "inappropriate times" when I wasn't with ANYONE. 

Do those "urges" STOP because we're 'with' someone? 

Why do we believe that when we are in a relationship that all of those physical 'urges' we have are 'supposed' to be directed toward the person we're with? 

And what do we do with them, if we're not with anyone at all? 

The thing is, that we're going to have them whether we're with someone or not...whether we're with someone RIGHT NOW, or not. 

So how can we say that it has anything to do with love?


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## Celes (Apr 28, 2015)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well sex is a bonding experience. You get a lot more than a simple sexual release having sex. I don't think masterbation is wrong Just don't understand why someone would purposely choose that over a loving partner in a loving relationship


Sometimes you just want a quick release without having to worry about someone else's pleasure.

Porn is often just a tool, similar to a sex toy. At least it is for me and my husband.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Social studies are tricky. Your explanation is probably correct some of the time. Other times what is going on is that there is a set of conservative beliefs that tell people to not live together before marriage AND to not divorce. So even though their marriage situations are the same as those of another couple that divorces, this conservative couple doesn't divorce because they believe it is wrong. (whether that is better or worse is a different question).



MJJEAN said:


> We've all heard the stats that say a couple who lives together before marriage is more likely to divorce. I've always wondered if that was because those couples were having troubles, were too invested to walk, and got married because they thought marriage would be some magical solution. Much like people have been known to have babies in an attempt to save a failing marriage.
> 
> I think this study is similar. We know that porn use is associated with increased divorce rates, but we don't know exactly why. We don't know why the couple divorced or what, if anything, porn use had to do with that.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Others will have to chime in, but I think the issue is people who masturbate INSTEAD of having sex with their partners. Having your partner turn you down for sex, then go off an masturbate (to porn, with a toy whatever) is a very hurtful rejection to most people.








Vega said:


> This is what I don't understand.
> 
> Why is masturbation, while in a relationship, is so TABOO???
> 
> ...


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

Ha ha I love porn. Here I am with DD15 watching Amazon video and W sleeping on the couch. Do you think I want to be ready to go around my kids? Of course not. But after age 50 the ramp up time is more than 10 seconds that it took when I was 19. OTOH I love all physicality with my W - snuggling, holding, talking, sex. That's the reward for a long day and what keeps us bonded. And porn is a great quick ramp facilitator after we tuck in the kids and before we sleep.

Porn has been around for centuries. I bought paper based porn before the internet. I'm visual and I'm a man and I love sex and I crave intimacy with my W

So I think porn isn't the problem. I think unacomidating spouses is a big part of the problem. Any SO should be willing to cuddle up and provide intimacy and sexual release for their partner every night. They don't have to accept but it should be offered. Just the offer could be all that it takes to create a bond. 

Just my opinion 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

uhtred said:


> Others will have to chime in, but I think the issue is people who masturbate INSTEAD of having sex with their partners. Having your partner turn you down for sex, then go off an masturbate (to porn, with a toy whatever) is a very hurtful rejection to most people.


I think this here is the key. It isn't as much masturbating when you are in a relationship but masturbating in place of your partner in a relationship. This goes back to a point I made in another thread, where you have seen issues posted here where the spouse rejects or shows little interest in their SO but then turns around to go masturbate. 

Where it gets tricky as well, at least for me. I know in my younger days I could flog the dolphin multiple times a day and still be ready/in the mood for sex on a moments notice. Now, if I beat the monkey I generally have very little interest in sex for the rest of the day (as long as enough time has passed I would have no issues performing, but I wouldn't have much of a desire to initiate anything). So you could argue that I have directed my energy away from my W

I do believe people can masturbate within a healthy sexual relationship without issue. When things start going south in the relationship, then it has the potential to cause a bigger problem.


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## thefam (Sep 9, 2014)

My H has been on a mini sabbatical so we have been enjoying some rare time to explore topics i have avoided in the past. Topics I had kind of taken a "don't ask don't tell" attitude toward. Porn and masturbation were 2 of those topics. His views on both were just fascinating. We really dug deep unto some of these discussions and I will just say that his views don't match what most men (and sone women) on TAM have declared as "universal truth" for men and porn/masturbation use. 

The only reason i'm not addressing porn/masturbation use with women is because it is not a thing for me personally. I HATE porn and masturbation for me only leaves a feeling of "that would have been so much better with hubby." And i have gone L-O-N-G periods of time without access to H so I know what its like to want sexual release. Porn and masturbation just doesn't do it for me personally but I fully understand that Im probably one of a very few who feel this way.

Someone said further up that we have been conditioned to believe that masturbation is somehow wrong. I think its just the opposite. I think wd have been conditioned to believe that sexual release is a biological need that's right up there with the need for food and water. I don't believe that it is.

All that being said, it is a beautiful thing that God created when He eastablished sex as the ultimate bond in marriage. 

Lastly I 100 percent agree that the defense of porn is closely related to being personally invested in it. This is just human nature but I take it a step further to say that yhe personal investment has clouded the judgment of its harmful effects.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Vega said:


> This is the way I see it.
> 
> Everyone's sexuality is _extremely_ *personal*. My own biological "urges" for an orgasm have NOTHING to do with who I'm with. I'd have those physical "urges" whether I'm with someone or not. And, I have had them at, shall I say, "inappropriate times" when I wasn't with ANYONE.
> 
> ...


Of course sexual urges appear whether in a relationship or not. 

When not in a relationship, what to do with those urges is very simple. Either ignore, masturbate, or find a partner for sex. Whatever suits you. 

In a monogamous relationship, directing sexual energy toward masturbation instead of partner sex is like saying "You can't have sex with anyone else, but I just recently masturbated and have no interest so you can't have sex with me, either. Good luck with that!"


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

I think men look at porn in different ways/for different reasons. My first husband did look, I was not offended. He maintained a relationship with me, sought me out for sex, showed his desire for me and was not sitting in the bathroom for 30-40 minutes at a time. My second husband well, porn was his go-to. he claimed that in his first marriage he got tired of begging his wife for sex. Knowing what I went thru with him I don't think he ever begged his wife for sex. We had lots of counseling together, he had separate counseling as well on his porn addiction and use of porn and his inability to show his love and affection for me and seek me instead of porn. I was the pursuer of him and would I would mention this to close friends they didn't understand. This wasn't a gradual decline, this was like this even while dating and I asked plenty of questions.

One of our counselors said he believed that his issues started as a teenagers feeling like the girls would reject him and instead of trying to ask them out and trying to relate to them he turned to what was safe, porn, and that's where his habits towards women and porn began. This counselor felt it was possible that husband had been sexually abused as a child and wanted to explore that with him but husband chose not to go back. I now wonder if perhaps he had been sexually abused and did not want to face whatever it was that he was not wanting to share.

I don't feel porn in healthy for men or marriages but for those men who feel that we ladies have to accept them as is which includes their porn habits, or those who claim they will stop but are secretly hiding their activity to their wives, it drives a wedge in the marriage. Men get very caught up in the fantasy of these women and their bodies and will neglect their marriage because this is so easy (can have it on their phones), they do not have to do anything to try and please this women that they have no attachment with. So the marriage is in a tough spot and the husband is angry so he goes to porn and leaves himself emotionally available to his wife and to better the marriage.

The porn lady does have a real life....she might have drug issues, she might be a real mental case, she might have high expectations, children she is trying to support, maybe she is suicidal.....I mention the hard issues because usually tit's the hard issues that busts marriages but in a magazine or online men do not know the person behind the porn, they just see the body. Are the men thinking, "she would never have anything to do with me in real life."? No! These men do not know her and so they look, fantasize and get caught up in the thought of what it would be with a girl that will never be available to him. Quite honestly, I think few men really want a 'relationship' with a woman....if the sex is less than what it has been they complain or start looking other places. So is it about a relationship with this person or is about sex? 

I am in my mid 50's and several of our friends who have been married over 20 years have divorced, myself included. One of my best friends left her husband, issues were not due to porn or sex problems. When he started dating he found a very sweet lady his age but he referred to their time together as his ex weekends. Said she was only companionship. Meanwhile she is falling head over heels in love with him and I think he could leave her and never blink an eye.


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## Adam_Baker (Jan 8, 2017)

Celes said:


> Sometimes you just want a quick release without having to worry about someone else's pleasure.
> 
> Porn is often just a tool, similar to a sex toy. At least it is for me and my husband.


This. Sometimes you just want a quick release without having to worry about someone else. 

Try not taking it too personal :x


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

AVR1962 said:


> The porn lady does have a real life....she might have drug issues, she might be a real mental case, she might have high expectations, children she is trying to support, maybe she is suicidal.....I mention the hard issues because usually tit's the hard issues that busts marriages but in a magazine or online men do not know the person behind the porn, they just see the body. Are the men thinking, "she would never have anything to do with me in real life."? No! These men do not know her and so they look, fantasize and get caught up in the thought of what it would be with a girl that will never be available to him.


Before internet porn was available, I read that that part of the appeal of porn is that the wom(e)n on the page(s) is _looking right at him_. She wants HIM (along with the other 100,000 men who are looking at the same picture—but he doesn’t think about that!). She’s willing and wanting him to do with her, anything _he_ wants. Plus, she’s ALWAYS available. Once he’s done with her, he simply closes the book. No muss, no fuss. What could be more convenient?



> Quite honestly, I think few men really want a 'relationship' with a woman....if the sex is less than what it has been they complain or start looking other places. So is it about a relationship with this person or is about sex?


I'm starting to believe the same thing. :frown2: So many men (some women, too) claim to love their partners/spouses, but they will leave them/divorce if the sex is lacking. And, they will accept sex from the first sexually available person who comes along. So I wonder...is it the person they love or SEX that they 'love?



> I am in my mid 50's and several of our friends who have been married over 20 years have divorced, myself included. One of my best friends left her husband, issues were not due to porn or sex problems. When he started dating he found a very sweet lady his age but he referred to their time together as his ex weekends. Said she was only companionship. Meanwhile she is falling head over heels in love with him and I think he could leave her and never blink an eye.


They claim that they want to have sex with their spouse for the 'bonding' experience and the "emotional intimacy" that sex can bring. But quite often when they divorce, they still seek out sex. Do they want sex for the 'bonding' experience and the emotional intimacy with a new person that they don't even know? More than likely not. 

Their behavior after the fact can both confuse and anger women. She can feel like basically he married her for sex and that it was sex that he loved; not _her_.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Well sex is a bonding experience. You get a lot more than a simple sexual release having sex.


Really? Even if you're in a FWB 'relationship' or if you're having a ONS...or simply casual sex? We don't "bond" with everyone we have sex with. Even if we're in a marriage, is EVERY sexual experience with our spouse a "bonding" experience?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Vega said:


> Really? Even if you're in a FWB 'relationship' or if you're having a ONS...or simply casual sex? We don't "bond" with everyone we have sex with. Even if we're in a marriage, is EVERY sexual experience with our spouse a "bonding" experience?


I am not sure how exactly you want to classify bonding, but I can honestly say every time my W and I have sex I feel closer to her (not just literally lol).


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I am not sure how exactly you want to classify bonding, but I can honestly say every time my W and I have sex I feel closer to her (not just literally lol).


Ok, I'm glad to hear that, but I DO have a few questions for you...

Does your _wife_ feel the same way? Does _she_ ALWAYS feel "closer" to you when she has sex with you? I know I may be difficult for you to answer, as you're not inside your wife's head. And, there are some wives would _SAY_ that they 'feel closer' to their husbands while not really feeling that way all the time. 

Plus there are some men who will have sex with their wives while fantasizing about someone else (for instance, due to porn). Are they REALLY feeling "closer" to their wives during those times?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think many poeople think that they can have a FWB and discover sex is much more bonding than they had intended. Happened to a female friend of mine - he FWB (agreed to by both) became way to romantically involved - something she didn't want at that point in her life.




Vega said:


> Really? Even if you're in a FWB 'relationship' or if you're having a ONS...or simply casual sex? We don't "bond" with everyone we have sex with. Even if we're in a marriage, is EVERY sexual experience with our spouse a "bonding" experience?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Vega said:


> Ok, I'm glad to hear that, but I DO have a few questions for you...
> 
> Does your _wife_ feel the same way? Does _she_ ALWAYS feel "closer" to you when she has sex with you? I know I may be difficult for you to answer, as you're not inside your wife's head. And, there are some wives would _SAY_ that they 'feel closer' to their husbands while not really feeling that way all the time.
> 
> Plus there are some men who will have sex with their wives while fantasizing about someone else (for instance, due to porn). Are they REALLY feeling "closer" to their wives during those times?


From what my W has said, yes, she does feel the same way. Now keep in mind though, my W and I get very little alone time together. If we are having sex that is one of the few times where we can truly just focus on each other and nothing else. I think that plays a big part in the way we feel. Now let's say we spent tons of time together every day, had sex frequently, would we feel that way every single time we had sex, IDK, maybe not.

I am sure there are both men and women who fantasize about someone else while having sex with their SO, so I wouldn't really narrow down to a men only question.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

A lot of interesting reading...

It's pretty clear that many of the conversations here are based on a chiefly American relationship perspective. I lived in Europe for 5 years, mostly Central Europe (BENELUX/Deutschland), and the attitude of sex was far more relaxed in and about their integration of sex into their life. My national friends looked to porn pretty nonchalantly... it was there, it was fun to look at, it encompassed everyday situation in their perspectives (non-Hollywood), and it was overall non-threatening to any relationship because it was a culturally accepted norm.

Here it is not, and as relationships break down for many modern reasons, we choose an easy scapegoat, something that is considered mainly morally reprehensible in mostly religious judgements. We always reach for the easy fruit first in finding fault, not in finding awareness.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

MJJEAN said:


> For some of us partnered sex is better than masturbation, full stop. I *would (and have) take ONS or FWB sex over masturbation any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
> *
> Why is masturbation taboo in many relationships, @Vega? Probably because a lot of people believe that all sexual energy should be directed toward one's partner whenever possible.


shows how everyone is different then. I wouldn't especially on Sunday :smile2:


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Vega said:


> This is the way I see it.
> 
> Everyone's sexuality is _extremely_ *personal*. My own biological "urges" for an orgasm have NOTHING to do with who I'm with. I'd have those physical "urges" whether I'm with someone or not. And, I have had them at, shall I say, "inappropriate times" when I wasn't with ANYONE.
> 
> ...


Well as you say Vega it's all very personal so maybe for you it doesn't have anything to do with who your with and how you feel about them. But for many of us it's a close bonding experience and sex with someone you care about trumps doing it yourself or doing it with someone you could care less about. It is very personal


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Celes said:


> Sometimes you just want a quick release without having to worry about someone else's pleasure.
> 
> Porn is often just a tool, similar to a sex toy. At least it is for me and my husband.


I agree. For me I am very visual so when it comes to masterbation I need some visual stimuli and porn is obvious for that reason


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Vega said:


> Really? Even if you're in a FWB 'relationship' or if you're having a ONS...or simply casual sex? We don't "bond" with everyone we have sex with. Even if we're in a marriage, is EVERY sexual experience with our spouse a "bonding" experience?


Really!

Not everyone participates or finds much satisfaction from an FWB "relationships" or ONS.

And yes I would describe every sexual encounter for me within a relationship with someone I care about as bonding. People bond in different ways


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Vega said:


> Before internet porn was available, I read that that part of the appeal of porn is that the wom(e)n on the page(s) is _looking right at him_. She wants HIM (along with the other 100,000 men who are looking at the same picture—but he doesn’t think about that!). She’s willing and wanting him to do with her, anything _he_ wants. Plus, she’s ALWAYS available. Once he’s done with her, he simply closes the book. No muss, no fuss. What could be more convenient?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very good points! For me, my relationship with the man I love out-weighs the sexual part. But I also believe that the intimacy that you have from being able to hold hands and give your trust to one another is a huge part of being able to give to aone another sexually.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Vega said:


> I'm starting to believe the same thing. :frown2: So many men (some women, too) claim to love their partners/spouses, but they will leave them/divorce if the sex is lacking. And, they will accept sex from the first sexually available person who comes along. So I wonder...is it the person they love or SEX that they 'love?
> 
> They claim that they want to have sex with their spouse for the 'bonding' experience and the "emotional intimacy" that sex can bring. But quite often when they divorce, they still seek out sex. Do they want sex for the 'bonding' experience and the emotional intimacy with a new person that they don't even know? More than likely not.




Why would someone claim to love a spouse, but divorce over sex? 

The simple answer is that sex is a necessary component of an adult romantic relationship and compatibility in this area is important. Not just compatibility in terms of drive and kinks, but also in terms of point of view and level of importance. If sex is important to one or both partners and there is a glaring incompatibility, divorcing due to this incompatibility is the same as divorcing over any other incompatibility. 

Sex and love are not mutually inclusive or mutually exclusive. Neither are sex and bonding.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

MJJEAN said:


> Why would someone claim to love a spouse, but divorce over sex?
> 
> The simple answer is that sex is a necessary component of an adult romantic relationship and compatibility in this area is important. Not just compatibility in terms of drive and kinks, but also in terms of point of view and level of importance. If sex is important to one or both partners and there is a glaring incompatibility, divorcing due to this incompatibility is the same as divorcing over any other incompatibility.
> 
> Sex and love are not mutually inclusive or mutually exclusive. Neither are sex and bonding.


Agreed. As well, I think part of the issue, if you look at @Vega statement below:



> I'm starting to believe the same thing. So many men (some women, too) claim to love their partners/spouses, but they will leave them/divorce if the sex is lacking. *And, they will accept sex from the first sexually available person who comes along*. So I wonder...is it the person they love or SEX that they 'love?


Per the bolded, says who? It makes it seem like many men (and some women) are in it just to get laid, plain and simple, so they will take whatever they can get :scratchhead: Maybe this is true for some, but what is to say that those same people instead are looking for a strong sexual connection/compatibility with someone, not a quick romp in the sheets with the first person who offers up.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

What is WITH all the people who are torn to bits by porn? I don't get it. I honestly don't. I first "caught" my then-fiance looking at porn when I was 17. It was some brunette girl in stockings who didn't look dissimilar to me. He grinned and blushed and I did too and I said, "Soooo... you want me to wear fishnets?" He replied, "...maybe.", all sheepish and adorable. 

We both look at porn. We both know we look at porn. And if neither of us had ever seen the genitalia of the opposite sex, we would probably be even worse at sex than we are now. Sometimes I wish we had both had sexual experience with other people before getting married, solely so we would know how to get ourselves and each other off when not doing it solo. 

Seriously, what is the issue here?


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

jld said:


> Just saw this. Something to think about.
> 
> _A new study titled "Til Porn Do Us Part" suggests that adding pornography to a marriage doubles the likelihood of divorce._
> 
> ...


I wonder how often viewing pornography is a symptom of other problems, not necessarily the problem itself? Porn is an addictive habit, and most people who succumb to addictions tend to have something they are trying to avoid / a void they are trying to fill.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed. As well, I think part of the issue, if you look at @Vega statement below:
> 
> 
> 
> Per the bolded, says who? It makes it seem like many men (and some women) are in it just to get laid, plain and simple, so they will take whatever they can get :scratchhead: Maybe this is true for some, but what is to say that those same people instead are looking for a strong sexual connection/compatibility with someone, not a quick romp in the sheets with the first person who offers up.


After being starved for sex and/or intimacy, many men and women do get to the point where they are willing to take what they can get and who can blame them?

Besides, if you've just left a relationship where sex was an issue, you'd naturally be wary of entering into another relationship where sex could be an issue. The quickest and most accurate way to gauge sexual compatibility is to have sex.


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## Jeffyboy (Apr 7, 2015)

Surprised to hear the jump is higher for women than men in terms of getting divorced because of porn.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

MJJEAN said:


> After being starved for sex and/or intimacy, many men and women do get to the point where they are willing to take what they can get and who can blame them?
> 
> Besides, if you've just left a relationship where sex was an issue, you'd naturally be wary of entering into another relationship where sex could be an issue. The quickest and most accurate way to gauge sexual compatibility is to have sex.


I guess I may be different, IDK. ONS or having sex soon off the bat has never really interested me (and this is coming from someone where sex is somewhat of an issue in their marriage). 

Not saying I can blame someone who would do that. I understand as well why on paper that sounds "logical". However, would many men/women actually go that route though, maybe or maybe not, IDK. It sounds like Vega believes the answer is yes (at least in terms of men, to a much lesser extent for women), in part I am sure based on her experiences. I don't believe the answer is yes necessarily, in part based on my experiences. No right or wrong, especially since it is very individualistic.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> Seriously, what is the issue here?


Women are all like "why you jackin' it?"

Bunch of dudes are like "well yea you are intimately not available so..."

Women are like "Why didn't you tell me you liked to have sex?"

Dudes be like "..."


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

EllaSuaveterre said:


> What is WITH all the people who are torn to bits by porn? I don't get it. I honestly don't.
> 
> Seriously, what is the issue here?


Ella, the OP on the following thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showthread.php?t=363097 asked the question. You can read through some of the responses if you're genuinely interested in understanding the other side. 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Jeffyboy said:


> Surprised to hear the jump is higher for women than men in terms of getting divorced because of porn.


Why would you think that? 

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Kivlor said:


> I wonder how often viewing pornography is a symptom of other problems, not necessarily the problem itself? Porn is an addictive habit, and most people who succumb to addictions tend to have something they are trying to avoid / a void they are trying to fill.





jld said:


> It can be, just like affairs can be a symptom of a troubled marriage.
> 
> And porn, just like affairs, can be trouble in and of itself.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

MJJEAN said:


> The quickest and most accurate way to gauge sexual compatibility is to have sex.


I don't agree with this. 

In many cases, people have reported that “*In The Beginning *Sex Was Great.” The compatibility that people lack isn’t so much “kink” or the _kind_ of sex they want. More often it’s _frequency_. Frequency can wax and wane _over time _even in the best sexual relationship. 

Frequency is usually higher in the beginning of a relationship, so we can't use the beginning of a relationship to gauge how the frequency is going to be 3, 5, or even 20 or 30 years down the line.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

So many threads on this topic everywhere...

For every article that proclaims how bad porn is for a relationship, it is possible to find 10 that "prove" it otherwise.

Survey finds married men who watch porn are LESS likely to cheat - Irish Mirror Online

"Married men who have affairs don’t watch as much porn as their faithful friends, a new survey reveals."

I am also beginning to think that it is a cultural difference (as someone else said earlier in the thread) in how porn gets blamed for everything, from ED to fallout of a relationship with no conclusive evidence to back any of these assertions up. (I don't even understand how ED is possible for someone who is supposed to be addicted to orgasming from porn: doesn't one need to have an erection in order to orgasm in the first place, wether from porn or otherwise? Please note I am not dismissing ED as a serious affliction, only the assertions that porn is supposed to somehow be the cause of EDs in young males).

I can't see how watching porn is remotely similar to "having an affair" or many other assertions that have been made in this and other threads. And I also don't see how this argument can be resolved. However it is generally customary for the side that makes an assertion to supply conclusive proof, not the other way around. Misinformation can spread like fire, especially in this cyber day and age.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

inmyprime said:


> . (*I don't even understand how ED is possible for someone who is supposed to be addicted to orgasming from porn: doesn't one need to have an erection in order to orgasm in the first place, wether from porn or otherwise*? Please note I am not dismissing ED as a serious affliction, only the assertions that porn is supposed to somehow be the cause of EDs in young males).


Porn Addiction Side Effects - Erection Problems | Everyday Health


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Vega said:


> I don't agree with this.
> 
> In many cases, people have reported that “*In The Beginning *Sex Was Great.” The compatibility that people lack isn’t so much “kink” or the _kind_ of sex they want. More often it’s _frequency_. Frequency can wax and wane _over time _even in the best sexual relationship.
> 
> Frequency is usually higher in the beginning of a relationship, so we can't use the beginning of a relationship to gauge how the frequency is going to be 3, 5, or even 20 or 30 years down the line.


No, it can't filter for drive levels unless/until the limerence phase is over, but it can weed out the bad lovers, those who aren't into the same or similar kinks, etc.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Vega said:


> Porn Addiction Side Effects - Erection Problems | Everyday Health


And a more recent study: 

Study finds no link between viewing porn and erectile dysfunction - LA Times

_In a paper published Monday in the journal Sexual Medicine, researchers found that more hours spent viewing pornographic stimuli was "unrelated to erectile functioning with a partner, and was related to stronger desire for sex with a partner."_

Edit: Also the previous link is not an actual study published in a *medical journal*: it's a *survey* and then an *opinion* of a "head of Italian society for andrology", written up in an article. 

"A survey of 28,000 users found that many Italian males started an "excessive consumption" of porn sites as early as 14 and after daily use in their early to mid-20s became inured to "even the most violent" images, said Carlo Foresta, head of the Italian Society of Andrology and Sexual Medicine (SIAMS).

http://www.ansa.it/web/notizie/rubriche/english/2011/02/24/visualizza_new.html_1583160579.html


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

Without looking closely at the study, I would wonder if limited questions in the survey instrument are resulting in spurious correlation. Spurious correlation is when two variables are related, but not causally. Consider if porn use and divorce are two dependent variables that are positively correlated, but simultaneously correlated to a third independent, explanatory variable. 

"true" relationships could be:
1) sex problems in relationships => increased porn use
sex problems in relationships => divorce

2) sex addiction => increase in porn use
sex addiction => divorce


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