# Five Cases For Refusal: what it really means to the Refused



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Simply Amorous said in another thread, regarding the pain of sexual refusal:
"...They should infact, allow their spouse freedom -if they know they are hurting them deeply. It will never be right in my view of marraige ...or at least a happy fullfilled one..."

I thought about this, based on reading here and what friends who are regularly refused tell me.

I said I felt that the key was the phrase "if they know they are hurting them deeply". The refusing partner either *is*, or is *not*, aware of the hurt this causes.

I could see five situations around this.

In the first two, the refusing partner actually _doesn't_ know the hurt this causes.

Case 1: They *genuinely* don't know.

Case 2: They _sort of _know (have been told), but don't really _believe_ it (the old "it doesn’t bother me, I don't understand why it hurts you" / “It’s only sex!” sort of thing)

In the last three, the refusing partner *knows* the hurt this causes.

Case 3: The refusing partner knows but believes the other partner should accept the pain (to a greater or lesser extent) e.g. as a compromise for the hurt that having to face up to sex causes the refusing partner.

Case 4: The refusing partner knows, and _doesn’t care_ how much pain it causes. 

Case 5: The refusing partner knows, and does it *because* of the pain it causes (worst-case scenario)

The most favourable case is actually Case 1, because in that event the pain-causing partner can learn, understand and decide to act differently. In the other four cases, they either don’t really want to understand, want you to accept it as an occupational hazard, don’t care that it hurts or like the fact it hurts.

All told, it’s not an encouraging state of affairs when the fact that the refusing person is ignorant is your best hope.


----------



## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Well, I look at it more from a perspective of commitment and a person's desire to do for their spouse, rather than just a matter of understanding. And you have the same kinds of levels - from highly committed to not committed at all. 

When you are highly committed, you are willing to listen and accept and try and do even if you yourself do not totally understand or feel that exact way yourself.


----------



## LovesHerMan (Jul 28, 2011)

How many men suffer in silence and do not tell their wives how hurtful this is? Many women do not understand the male sex drive, and men must be persistent in letting their wives know that intimacy is how men connect emotionally to their wives.

Many men give up, feel like they shouldn't have to "beg" for sex. When things first start to go downhill, men should bring the subject up. Ask your wife what she wants in the bedroom. Keep up the emotional connection. Love her in a way that she can appreciate.

I recognize that many women will put up a wall, and not respond to questions about how they feel about sex. But most women want a strong marriage, and both spouses need to keep communication open about how to meet each other's needs.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

The bullet didn't mean to shoot you, it just did. Let's tell the bullet how we feel about that.


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

I have a question about all this... Let's say your spouse betrays you (abuse, affair, lying, etc.) and you have not fully recovered from the betrayal, although they've helped you as best they can after the fact, there is nothing really further that the betrayer can do. 

If a couple has decided to ride this out and repair the marriage, how long can the betrayed spouse continue to have problems being intimate? Is it once the BS decides to stay, should the sex life snap back? And is the woman wrong to continue to have hang ups, processing as best she/he can. I don't know if this makes sense, but just wondering.


----------



## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

Cherry said:


> I have a question about all this... Let's say your spouse betrays you (abuse, affair, lying, etc.) and you have not fully recovered from the betrayal, although they've helped you as best they can after the fact, there is nothing really further that the betrayer can do.
> 
> If a couple has decided to ride this out and repair the marriage, how long can the betrayed spouse continue to have problems being intimate? Is it once the BS decides to stay, should the sex life snap back? And is the woman wrong to continue to have hang ups, processing as best she/he can. I don't know if this makes sense, but just wondering.


If you have decided to fix things, sex will have to be part of that equation.

As far as "how soon", only the two people in that relationship can decide that. It's easy to understand how a betrayed spouse would be turned away from or even revolted by the thought of sex. But at the same time, without sexual contact, the relationship will die anyway.

That's why so many affairs kill marriages.


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

Mistys dad said:


> If you have decided to fix things, sex will have to be part of that equation.
> 
> As far as "how soon", only the two people in that relationship can decide that. It's easy to understand how a betrayed spouse would be turned away from or even revolted by the thought of sex. But at the same time, without sexual contact, the relationship will die anyway.
> 
> That's why so many affairs kill marriages.


Thanks. For me, it's still hard to believe that my H needs sex to feel close to me when it was so easy for him to try and hook up with a bunch of *****s on a personal site. I have a hard time believing he *needs* that connection with me, because of his past betraying ways. In fact what I hear him saying is that he needs it with me, but if I don't provide it when he wants it he will get that connection with some strange girl online. 

I feel he set the stage for our sexual life in our marriage. 

He hasn't been trying to hook up online for many months now (that I know of), so we are still a work in progress... I guess only time will tell at this point.


----------



## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

I won't defend his cheating. Not my place.

I will tell you that, as a man, sex is complicated and simple at the same time.

There are a host of emotions associated with sex. Emotions that are expressed in positive, negative and neutral ways.

Each man has a different balance of his own sexual urges and emotions. How that mix is ultimately acted out depends on the individual.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Cherry said:


> Thanks. For me, it's still hard to believe that my H needs sex to feel close to me when it was so easy for him to try and hook up with a bunch of *****s on a personal site. I have a hard time believing he *needs* that connection with me, because of his past betraying ways. In fact what I hear him saying is that he needs it with me, but if I don't provide it when he wants it he will get that connection with some strange girl online.
> 
> I feel he set the stage for our sexual life in our marriage.
> 
> He hasn't been trying to hook up online for many months now (that I know of), so we are still a work in progress... I guess only time will tell at this point.


When he was cheating.. or at least looking to cheat. Were you withholding sex on a regular basis? 

I guess I'm confused about his point of view. Is he saying that if you ever say no, even for a legitimate reason that he will look for someone at that point? Or is he saying if saying no becomes the norm he will look for a hook-up?


----------



## finebyme72 (Jul 12, 2011)

There are two issues at play:

1. A man needs sex to feel an emotional connection.

2. A man needs physical release.

These two things aren't always connected. I can't speak for guys that hook up with girls while married but I can speak for myself as someone who has done bad things online with women other than my wife. My wife gave me no emotional connection at all when we had sex. It was always "hurry up and get it over with" no cuddling afterwards, no afterglow together - it was almost as if she was angry afterwards. That doesn't feel very good at all. Its almost like I'm just getting a physical release with my wife without the emotional component attached. That made it easier to seek out these women online. My wife and I are working on it (well, I am giving it a go with a counselor and she is just trying to work through it on her own).


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

EleGirl said:


> When he was cheating.. or at least looking to cheat. Were you withholding sex on a regular basis?
> 
> I guess I'm confused about his point of view. Is he saying that if you ever say no, even for a legitimate reason that he will look for someone at that point? Or is he saying if saying no becomes the norm he will look for a hook-up?


He started his online activity shortly after I gave birth to our twins and after I technically died after slipping into a coma for 2 weeks, and then again after I had a stroke which left me temporarily paralyzed on my left side. But the biggest sucker punch was when I found he was doing it 6 months after we reconciled (after a 5 month separation primarily due to all the crap he pulled during my medical complications)... We were in MC during the last stunt he pulled. 

It's on me as I've chosen to try and keep our family together - BUT quite frankly I get aggravated when I hear on here that in order for a man to feel connected to his wife, the sex has to be there and the woman has to desire him for it to be worth while. It's not always that simple. I can have a tinge of desire for him one morning, but then I began to think about all the crap he did and it's difficult to maintain that desire. 

And I can relate to the other post, in that I do sometimes feel it is a chore right now... I too have a lot of resentment built up, but as far as I know, he's not out there doing that anymore, but I can't just flip a switch on my desire as I suspect most betrayed spouses can't. 

How long do you try and bring that desire back and is a man who has betrayed (in some way) his spouse responsible for that lack of desire and do they see it and are they willing to tolerate it? Seems fair that they should tolerate it, after all they brought it on themselves. ???


----------



## finebyme72 (Jul 12, 2011)

@Cherry - your circumstances seem truly extraordinary and it sounds like quite an ordeal but its not fair for you to say that he brought all of it on himself. You two are a partnership. It certainly sounds like you're the one doing most of the repair but to a degree, both of you are responsible for the situation you are in.


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

finebyme72 said:


> @Cherry - your circumstances seem truly extraordinary and it sounds like quite an ordeal *but its not fair for you to say that he brought all of it on himself*. You two are a partnership. It certainly sounds like you're the one doing most of the repair but to a degree, both of you are responsible for the situation you are in.


I gave my H a blowjob to completion from my hospital bed the day I woke up from a coma.... He chose to go home and carry on with women on the internet while I had to stay in the hospital... Not sure how I brought any of that on myself.... But okay.

In any event, it is our problem now, and I've recognized that I do need to have sex with him and while I am enthusiastic about it, the desire to have sex with him still wains. I really really wish I did have desire, I struggle with that so much. My attraction for my H is definitely still there, so I know that there is something still left to work with


----------



## finebyme72 (Jul 12, 2011)

Cherry said:


> I gave my H a blowjob to completion from my hospital bed the day I woke up from a coma.... He chose to go home and carry on with women on the internet while I had to stay in the hospital... Not sure how I brought any of that on myself.... But okay.
> 
> In any event, it is our problem now, and I've recognized that I do need to have sex with him and while I am enthusiastic about it, the desire to have sex with him still wains. I really really wish I did have desire, I struggle with that so much. My attraction for my H is definitely still there, so I know that there is something still left to work with


He asked for that? After my wife's cancer surgery, we didn't have sex for three months or so (and I can promise you I put no pressure on her to do it).

Most people aren't dropped in the situations they're in in a vacuum. He may be a great guy who did some not so great things . . . or maybe you had blinders on and married an @$$. Why did he do them and what can be done to keep them from happening again.

I went to women online because I felt like my needs weren't being met. But, I married a woman who didn't have an overly high or adventurous sex drive. We're working on. When she put it all on me, it allowed her to 1. be a victim and 2. have something over on me. Like I said, we're working on it.


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

finebyme72 said:


> He asked for that? After my wife's cancer surgery, we didn't have sex for three months or so (and I can promise you I put no pressure on her to do it).
> 
> Most people aren't dropped in the situations they're in in a vacuum. *He may be a great guy who did some not so great things . . . or maybe you had blinders on and married an @$$. *Why did he do them and what can be done to keep them from happening again.
> 
> I went to women online because I felt like my needs weren't being met. But, I married a woman who didn't have an overly high or adventurous sex drive. We're working on. When she put it all on me, it allowed her to 1. be a victim and 2. have something over on me. Like I said, we're working on it.


I was in a woozy state and just did it. He didn't ask.

It's either one of those I bolded from your statement. And like you, we are still working on it. He's done many other things that lead me to believe I had blinders on and married and A$$  And he's done many things that make me think that he's actually a good man who made horrible life choices. Good luck in your marriage!


----------



## studley (Oct 19, 2011)

lovesherman said:


> Many men give up, feel like they shouldn't have to "beg" for sex.


Exactly. In my mind, if she does not initiate sex once in a while or even be willing to have sex, then it's pretty obvious that it is not important to them. I am one that will not beg for it.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

> * Cherry said*: He started his online activity shortly after I gave birth to our twins and after I technically died after slipping into a coma for 2 weeks, and then again after I had a stroke which left me temporarily paralyzed on my left side. But the biggest sucker punch was when I found he was doing it 6 months after we reconciled (after a 5 month separation primarily due to all the crap he pulled during my medical complications)... We were in MC during the last stunt he pulled


I do wonder what type of man he was BEFORE all of this ? I ask because I think many people either have good character or they simply don't, didn't learn it growing up & carry that into marraiges... It sounds like you are divided on ...is he a good man who did a very bad thing ....or did YOU have those blinders on...

If there is any way to make sense of what he did ---trying to retain that he is a DECENT man..... let me say this... Many GOOD people would "loose it" seeing their spouse almost die, lie in a coma for 2 straight weeks, then have a STROKE .....especially at a young age......can anything be more devestating in life -the prospect of death to their lover/best friend, mother of their new born twins -that life may never be the same again....I can't think of a worse devestation myself .... it would bring ME to my knees, I would be a basketcase .....make me weak in many ways and I can see how someone in those shoes may seek an ESCAPISM to deal with the pain when he is alone with nothing to do but THINK

.... His outlet.......hop online. 

Obviously your husband has a HUGE sex drive, he should have just masterbated & thought of you & him, I agree, but probably any thought of you right then just caused him more pain. I am just trying to think of how that may feel. I don't know. I hope I never see the day. And for some, infact many many men, their way of dealing with stress....IS SEX! 

I am not trying to say what he did was OK, don't misunderstand me, but I am asking you if you ever talked to him about HIS pain during that time of your hanging by a thread ...that he started all of this? 

Obviously, he SHOULD have rose above the situation, and remained true to you in your darkest hour. But if there is a side of human weakness in it all, this is my best shot at explaining it. 

ANd I hope I won't get jumped on too badly for expressing it.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Well, I look at it more from a perspective of commitment and a person's desire to do for their spouse, rather than just a matter of understanding. And you have the same kinds of levels - from highly committed to not committed at all.
> 
> When you are highly committed, you are willing to listen and accept and try and do even if you yourself do not totally understand or feel that exact way yourself.


In a sense, it doesn't matter.

Whether you are ignorant of the pain caused vice being ignorant that you need to be committed to / desirous of doing something for your partner, or whether you understand and are glad about the pain caused vice being committed to and desirous of causing hurt, it doesn't matter.

The bottom line is, the best position is that the partner causing the pain doesn't realise and can commit / learn to not cause the pain.


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I do wonder what type of man he was BEFORE all of this ? I ask because I think many people either have good character or they simply don't, didn't learn it growing up & carry that into marraiges... It sounds like you are divided on ...is he a good man who did a very bad thing ....or did YOU have those blinders on...
> 
> If there is any way to make sense of what he did ---trying to retain that he is a DECENT man..... let me say this... Many GOOD people would "loose it" seeing their spouse almost die, lie in a coma for 2 straight weeks, then have a STROKE .....especially at a young age......can anything be more devestating in life -the prospect of death to their lover/best friend, mother of their new born twins -that life may never be the same again....I can't think of a worse devestation myself .... it would bring ME to my knees, I would be a basketcase .....make me weak in many ways and I can see how someone in those shoes may seek an ESCAPISM to deal with the pain when he is alone with nothing to do but THINK
> 
> ...


Thanks Enchantment. I have never really thought about all of that on a serious level. He eluded to it several times that he was scared of losing me and was pretty convinced I was not coming home alive (as was the rest of my family)... I imagine for my H, it was a lonely world he was in when all that was going on. I was on a pier somewhere in the ocean though  

He's not been a very good person in life in general, but he does try like hell to please me and he's really a doting husband. And he's really cleaned his act up since moving to TN and getting married and having babies. 

I really do appreciate your thoughts, helps to put some things in perspective


----------



## JustAMan2 (Oct 28, 2011)

Sawney Beane said:


> Simply Amorous said in another thread, regarding the pain of sexual refusal:
> "...They should infact, allow their spouse freedom -if they know they are hurting them deeply. It will never be right in my view of marraige ...or at least a happy fullfilled one..."
> 
> I thought about this, based on reading here and what friends who are regularly refused tell me.
> ...


In my case, my wife refused because of the pain it caused HER PAIN due to severe childhood sexual abuse. Some may say, "Well, JAM2, that's not the norm." But statistics don't lie. It's reported that 25% of women have been abused sexually as children, and estimates are up to 40% due to non-reporting (due to the shame the victim feels--wrongly so, but they still feel it).

I'm not sure which case scenario this would fit.


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

JustAMan2 said:


> In my case, my wife refused because of the pain it caused HER PAIN due to severe childhood sexual abuse. Some may say, "Well, JAM2, that's not the norm." But statistics don't lie. It's reported that 25% of women have been abused sexually as children, and estimates are up to 40% due to non-reporting (due to the shame the victim feels--wrongly so, but they still feel it).
> 
> I'm not sure which case scenario this would fit.


Mostly case 3. "believes the other partner should accept the pain (to a greater or lesser extent) e.g. as a compromise for the hurt that having to face up to sex causes the refusing partner"


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

This is my entire Comment I gave on another thread that Sawney used a sentence of .... just to hear the context I was using in it's fullness...my thoughts were only on those who REFUSE & continue to refuse.... a LOVING CARING GIVING SPOUSE.... It was about ever *faithful *honorable Husbands & wives who are suffering in this area & paying a darn high price to stay within marraiges lacking affection / sexual touching -with a partner who , although they may say they love them.... could so easily live without sex. 



> But does their reasons go to their heart & at least entertain the idea of what they are doing to their spouse -who by the way, can't get it anywhere else -near every love language, you can get filled by others (friends, kids, family) ..but not sex & physical affection!....we are left at the mercies of 1 lone soul to comfort us. (doesn't have to be intercourse though, many ways)
> 
> Again...I am talking IF they are treated lovingly, like that Queen, like that Prince.... In my world of thinking, that says a whole lot about the spouse who denies. If they can easily turn a blind eye, I just can't "feel" for them. My sympathies are gone.
> 
> They should infact, allow their spouse freedom -if they know they are hurting them deeply. It will never be right in my view of marraige ...or at least a happy fullfilled one.



As for my own marraige .... I can't say I was a Refuser (though during infertility I made him "wait"- that was very hard on him -but he kept it all inside)... .. I was in *Case #1* and possibly a tinge of *Case #2* ... he did call me a "Nun" on occasion around friends & I joked back "all men think about is sex!". But we never had one serious discussion in 19 yrs about how he felt , he tried once telling me how he wanted to "hold me" more at night, I took a different meaning to it- not about sex but about sleeping, sometimes the light bulb just doesn't go on! so I think he needed to pull the string a little more. 









...I learned 3 yrs ago , he felt "*Less loved*" when he wanted MORE & I was oblivious of his need somehow, babies in bed with us , book in my hands, projects on the brain. He cared so much about MY happiness over his own, he just willingly suffered, put himself down. When he had a morning erection -he just wanted it to go away. Oh how sad. I had no idea all of this was going on in his head. He put on a heck of a front, he only seemed grouchy with the kids, rarely me. 

He did say he felt what we had was "still good" he told me he was "still happy, we had the kids"...he didn't want to rock the boat, at least I was always an initiating wife.... that was more than what the guys at work had. 

But yet, what remains with me is.... It opened MY eyes to how the Physical Touching spouse *feels*... and *deeply *...when these needs are left to blow in the wind.... hearing how he felt Less loved by me.... that kinda tore me up.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Cherry said:


> Thanks Enchantment. I have never really thought about all of that on a serious level. He eluded to it several times that he was scared of losing me and was pretty convinced I was not coming home alive (as was the rest of my family)... I imagine for my H, it was a lonely world he was in when all that was going on. I was on a pier somewhere in the ocean though
> 
> He's not been a very good person in life in general, but he does try like hell to please me and he's really a doting husband. And he's really cleaned his act up since moving to TN and getting married and having babies.
> 
> I really do appreciate your thoughts, helps to put some things in perspective


You got me mixed up with Enchantment! I would believe his words to you , he felt he was going to loose you forever, sometimes I think it would be harder to be the one left standing, dealing with the prospect of loss. Men oftentimes struggle showing their deep emotions- to the depths they FEEL them. 

Trying like Hell to please you, a doting husband and cleaning up his act since becoming a Father, sounds like he is aiming to be a "changed man" for his family. :smthumbup:


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

No means no. Sometimes it means hell no.


----------



## Cherry (Sep 23, 2009)

SimplyAmorous said:


> You got me mixed up with Enchantment! I would believe his words to you , he felt he was going to loose you forever, sometimes I think it would be harder to be the one left standing, dealing with the prospect of loss. Men oftentimes struggle showing their deep emotions- to the depths they FEEL them.
> 
> Trying like Hell to please you, a doting husband and cleaning up his act since becoming a Father, sounds like he is aiming to be a "changed man" for his family. :smthumbup:


I did mean you, I'm sorry! I come here so that I can do what is within my power to get our marriage on the right track. I've never stopped to think how those situations may have contributed to some of his behavior... What you said has got me thinking in a different direction right now. He still has anger problems, but like most things I've seen him overcome, he seems to be really working at that too. Maybe ill be the one writing next month how my H can't keep up with my drive!! lol
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## ukv (Jul 6, 2012)

Cherry said:


> I gave my H a blowjob to completion from my hospital bed the day I woke up from a coma....


wow ! and you did it on your own as you said later because you were in a woozy state.

Either you really loved your husband so much or you liked giving BJs so much that you did it in a semi concious kind of state. Either way you are a really desirable woman ... I feel sorry for the bad situation that you feel you are in and it would really hurt knowing what your husband did... but considering that he started it during the time he did not have any sexual partner ...... sometimes a thing that you start is difficult to stop for some people until they see a logical conclusion.

Well you are most knowledgeble about the situation.


----------



## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Honestly, I think most are Case 2. People have a nasty tendency to judge ‘pains’ by how they’d feel about it. So, if you don’t like much sex, you aren’t exactly going to be empathetic with someone who really likes it. Ditto in reverse.

Case 3 through 5 show up when there is persistence by those of us who are rejected. The refusal spouse starts getting angry that they won’t stop asking. Its not at all uncommon that people morph their guilt toward anger at the person “making them” feel guilty. Enter justifications and demonizing your spouse... So it morphs into rejection just because they asked... The asking alone is a anger trigger and they no longer even stop to think whether or not they want sex themselves; So the idea of sex isn’t even a consideration in the rejection.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Unless someone is a raving sociopath, they know rejection is unpleasant. The prospect that sexless spouses don't know they are hurting their partners is a bunch of rot. They just don't care and they feel entitled to continue receiving the other benefits of marriage while subjecting their parters to cruelty and abuse.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sawney,
This is a great list. 

Husband and wife are driving to restaurant to meet friends for dinner. Halfway there he turns around and begins to drive home.
W: what are you doing
H: I don't "feel" like socializing tonight
Huge argument ensues - H explains that socializing and restaurants aren't that important to him and so he just doesn't get why she is so upset. W keeps getting more angry. Finally she says "this isn't about whether or not you feel it's important - it's important to me"
H: I don't understand that last bit, can you explain
W: repeating 
H: I still don't really understand - maybe if you can think of a situation where you do this to me, I would get it

It isn't that hard to create emotional understanding 




QUOTE=Sawney Beane;578578]Simply Amorous said in another thread, regarding the pain of sexual refusal:
"...They should infact, allow their spouse freedom -if they know they are hurting them deeply. It will never be right in my view of marraige ...or at least a happy fullfilled one..."

I thought about this, based on reading here and what friends who are regularly refused tell me.

I said I felt that the key was the phrase "if they know they are hurting them deeply". The refusing partner either *is*, or is *not*, aware of the hurt this causes.

I could see five situations around this.

In the first two, the refusing partner actually _doesn't_ know the hurt this causes.

Case 1: They *genuinely* don't know.

Case 2: They _sort of _know (have been told), but don't really _believe_ it (the old "it doesn’t bother me, I don't understand why it hurts you" / “It’s only sex!” sort of thing)

In the last three, the refusing partner *knows* the hurt this causes.

Case 3: The refusing partner knows but believes the other partner should accept the pain (to a greater or lesser extent) e.g. as a compromise for the hurt that having to face up to sex causes the refusing partner.

Case 4: The refusing partner knows, and _doesn’t care_ how much pain it causes. 

Case 5: The refusing partner knows, and does it *because* of the pain it causes (worst-case scenario)

The most favourable case is actually Case 1, because in that event the pain-causing partner can learn, understand and decide to act differently. In the other four cases, they either don’t really want to understand, want you to accept it as an occupational hazard, don’t care that it hurts or like the fact it hurts.

All told, it’s not an encouraging state of affairs when the fact that the refusing person is ignorant is your best hope.[/QUOTE]
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I'm trying to imagine someone on trial for aggravated assault claiming they didn't realize that bludgeoning someone with a baseball bat caused the victim pain. If I decided to put my needs before her's and commit adultary, I'm pretty clear it would cause her distress. If I put my needs before her's, quit work, and played video games all day, letting my unemployed wife starve or endure the elements, I'm pretty clear she wouldn't like it. Are there actually people so inattentive, disinterested, and soul-less that they haven't learned how to be feeling human beings by the time they're adults? I think we call such people "sociopaths".


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> I'm trying to imagine someone on trial for aggravated assault claiming they didn't realize that bludgeoning someone with a baseball bat caused the victim pain. If I decided to put my needs before her's and commit adultary, I'm pretty clear it would cause her distress. If I put my needs before her's, quit work, and played video games all day, letting my unemployed wife starve or endure the elements, I'm pretty clear she wouldn't like it. Are there actually people so inattentive, disinterested, and soul-less that they haven't learned how to be feeling human beings by the time they're adults? I think we call such people "sociopaths".


Don't be naive, even if you're right. You know full well that _*no one*_ is going to see physical assault or failure to provide food and shelter as the same as sexual refusal.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Do you seriously wish to suggest those who turn their "loved" one away routinely and consistently have no inkling that they are harming their "partners" and their marriage? If such people exist, they are either sociopaths or idiots. They know. They absolutely HAVE to know. It's far closer to the truth to say they don't care.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

My wife is often too ill for sex. 

I rarely ask any more as I do not want to upset her.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Yes there are people who are that clueless or selfish, or pretend to be. Of course there are. I don't know what's worse, that they think I'll believe them or they think I won't.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Un,
What does she say when you ask her? 

What does she say when you ask: "Why do you think it is ok to reject me so frequently and so casually?"

You being chronically angry is not a good thing for either of you. 






unbelievable said:


> I'm trying to imagine someone on trial for aggravated assault claiming they didn't realize that bludgeoning someone with a baseball bat caused the victim pain. If I decided to put my needs before her's and commit adultary, I'm pretty clear it would cause her distress. If I put my needs before her's, quit work, and played video games all day, letting my unemployed wife starve or endure the elements, I'm pretty clear she wouldn't like it. Are there actually people so inattentive, disinterested, and soul-less that they haven't learned how to be feeling human beings by the time they're adults? I think we call such people "sociopaths".


----------



## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

> *By Unbelievable*
> Unless someone is a raving sociopath, they know rejection is unpleasant. The prospect that sexless spouses don't know they are hurting their partners is a bunch of rot. They just don't care and they feel entitled to continue receiving the other benefits of marriage while subjecting their partners to cruelty and abuse.
> 
> 
> They absolutely HAVE to know. It's far closer to the truth to say they don't care.




If rejection has been going on for years then I think that Unbelievable is 99% correct. Even if they do care it is obvious that they care about their controlling the sex more than they care about their partner’s needs.


*For those that know and reject their spouse for years there will be a price to pay in one form or another.* Frankly I would say that if the one spouse rejects the other for years, has no good reason for the rejection, and refuses to get help then I would suggest that the rejected partner set a plan. That plan would be to get yourself into a position that you are financially and emotionally strong enough to divorce the rejecter as soon as you can.

*Rejecting a spouse of sex for no good reason is emotional and physical abuse and is a violation of the marriage agreement.[/*COLOR]


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Often sex is withheld as a way to express anger. The withholding partner knows exactly what they are doing. It's a way for them to passive agressively get back at their partner

I'm not talking about things like not wanting sex when a person is truely ill, when there are real emotional issues that need to be dealt with (assuming that both partners deal iwth them).


----------



## Itsok123 (Aug 11, 2012)

Wow I am surprised yet sadened to find the confirmation within this convo that I should divorce my husband of 12 years. Is it so misunderstood that some of us wives do not feel it is our obligation to fulfill your needs. I am anything but prude but even for a quickie to be mutually shared it envoles me feeling some respect for my lover. There will always be takers out there that use their gender as an excuse for believing they need sex for their happiness. Hey boys some of us need to feel loved and understood before we even want sex. Sadly I have lost respect for my hubbie due to his lack of support with our I'll child. Yes I talked to him about this. The days of emotional wrenching and painful realization that our marriage was falling apart continues to leave me numb. I loved myself enough to leave , never been one to fake it, and don't believe that pretending is part of my marriage obligation.... Rather being honest is! 
No i am not gay. Love is as different for all of us as is sex. I for one found the teenage meatmaket of long ago left me feeling used and hollow so I look for more than sex as do many other women out there , friendship and mutual sharing is always a good start. Do you guys think that because your sex drive only becomes emotional upon rejection that us females should just get over ourselves and even if we don't feel like having sex, would rather a cup of tea and two way conversation first, we owe it to you all because you think your physical needs are more urgent than our feelings. Oh and one more thing before I go and leave you all to "typicalize" me....some unconditional physical affection given to us because you care not because you're hopeful would probe score you some points


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Itsok123 said:


> Wow I am surprised yet sadened to find the confirmation within this convo that I should divorce my husband of 12 years. Is it so misunderstood that some of us wives do not feel it is our obligation to fulfill your needs. I am anything but prude but even for a quickie to be mutually shared it envoles me feeling some respect for my lover. There will always be takers out there that use their gender as an excuse for believing they need sex for their happiness. Hey boys some of us need to feel loved and understood before we even want sex. Sadly I have lost respect for my hubbie due to his lack of support with our I'll child. Yes I talked to him about this. The days of emotional wrenching and painful realization that our marriage was falling apart continues to leave me numb. I loved myself enough to leave , never been one to fake it, and don't believe that pretending is part of my marriage obligation.... Rather being honest is!
> No i am not gay. Love is as different for all of us as is sex. I for one found the teenage meatmaket of long ago left me feeling used and hollow so I look for more than sex as do many other women out there , friendship and mutual sharing is always a good start. Do you guys think that because your sex drive only becomes emotional upon rejection that us females should just get over ourselves and even if we don't feel like having sex, would rather a cup of tea and two way conversation first, we owe it to you all because you think your physical needs are more urgent than our feelings. Oh and one more thing before I go and leave you all to "typicalize" me....some unconditional physical affection given to us because you care not because you're hopeful would probe score you some points


You are reading a lot into these posts that is not even written.

No one is suggesting that a neglected spouse whose needs are not met should just put out based on obligation.

YOu did the right thing, you left because the marriage did not fill your needs and left you feeling badly.

We are talking about those who w/h sex and refuse to work with their spouse to fix the underlying problems in the marriage.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Respect is a necessary ingredient of love. I've always been amazed that so many spouses have insufficient respect or regard for their mate to have sex with them but always just enough to accept all the other benefits of marriage, ie (financial support). If one isn't a legitimate husband or wife, what are they? A hostage taker? Slave owner? They also hold other human beings in confinement for financial reward. It really is pretty simple. If you are a husband or a wife, act like one. If you can't, quit lying about who you are and leave.


----------



## Itsok123 (Aug 11, 2012)

Ok got it but how does one know their partners real reasons for w/ h sex. Just because some are drowning in the deep deep sea of hurt, guilt, love, misunderstandings, and can't communicate this to their partner except by saying no does not mean they are playing power 
games......
For those that do deliberately dangle the ever illusive carrot over their lovers...they will find themselves lonelier than the pain they play with
I'm just trying to say that maybe the pain of rejection can taint the true ability to understand the reasons for it


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Itsok123 said:


> Ok got it but how does one know their partners real reasons for w/ h sex. Just because some are drowning in the deep deep sea of hurt, guilt, love, misunderstandings, and can't communicate this to their partner except by saying no does not mean they are playing power
> games......
> For those that do deliberately dangle the ever illusive carrot over their lovers...they will find themselves lonelier than the pain they play with
> I'm just trying to say that maybe the pain of rejection can taint the true ability to understand the reasons for it


If the person with holing sex is “drowning in the deep deep sea of hurt, guilt, love, misunderstandings” then they need to grow up and find a way to deal with it. They need to either leave the marriage or be part of the solution. That’s what grown up do.

If you are angry/upset and your spouse asks you what is wrong? Tell me so we can fix it. And your response it “Nothing!” Or “I don’t know.” Then the entire burden of the unspoken problem is on you for not voicing what is wrong.

Do you really believe that not wanting to tell your spouse what is wrong justifies years of withholding sex?

Why exactly would a person do that for years?


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

In every other aspect of life, we can't just stop performing and maintain our original position, no matter how we feel. At your job, you work or you're fired. If you're a parent, you are a decent parent or the State shows up, takes your kids, and puts you in prison. If I stopped paying my mortgage, I'd end up on the street. I can't just quit being faithful or quit financially supporting my wife without incurring ill consequences. Why would anyone think they can simultaneously abuse their spouse yet demand a right to all other benefits of marriage?


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> In every other aspect of life, we can't just stop performing and maintain our original position, no matter how we feel. At your job, you work or you're fired. If you're a parent, you are a decent parent or the State shows up, takes your kids, and puts you in prison. If I stopped paying my mortgage, I'd end up on the street. I can't just quit being faithful or quit financially supporting my wife without incurring ill consequences. Why would anyone think they can simultaneously abuse their spouse yet demand a right to all other benefits of marriage?


YOu know this goes both ways.

Some people withhold sex from a basically loving spouse who would do anything for them. Yet the withholder expects all the benefits of marriage as though they are entitled despite the serious emotional abuse that withhold sex causes… that goes for both male and female withholders.

On the other hand there are people who neglect and abuse (emotional/physical) their spouse. But still think that they have the right to sex with the very spouse they neglect/abuse.

In either case, a person is demanding some of the rights of marriage without filling their obliations.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Absolutely. Whether the withholder is a wife or a husband, it's all wrong and destructive. Both have a million excuses but the honest fact is that if they have a functioning hand or mouth, they can do something substantial to attend to their mate's needs. They don't, so they are selfishly saying they'd prefer to see the person they allegedly love twist in frustration for months on end rather than inconvenience themselves even slightly. It's just evil. In a truly just world, those people would be tattooed with "Z" for "Zombie" on their foreheads and be banned from any LTR again. They would be left alone to attend to their own precious needs and whims 24/7.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Itsok123 said:


> Love is as different for all of us as is sex. I for one found the teenage meatmaket of long ago left me feeling used and hollow so I look for more than sex as do many other women out there


 This comment doesn't surprise me at all. Young women would be very wise to not engage in this teenage meat market... all of us had choices before us, just cause something is the "popular" thing to do (like how some go hog wild in college having sex all over the place), doesn't make it the pathway to walk. Stay away from Players ! And whatever one does, don't marry this type, your post screams marrying an "unworthy" man. 

When I was young, these guys were shoved aside, they had ZERO chance -out the door they went. If more women would put on the brakes and refuse to be USED like this, Testing their character before giving themselves...like you said here *..."friendship and mutual sharing is always a good start"*....It is the ONLY START!!

Chances are they would not be suffering the deep seated scars of today feeling every man wants to BANG them unemotionally. There are good men out there who would never USE a woman like that.... nothing wrong with the Good guys! Too many women overlook them.


----------



## cloudwithleggs (Oct 13, 2011)

my estranged was case 5...

i do believe i was totally brainwashed.


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Un,
I have to say the most common theme i see in sexless marriages is an unwillingness of the refused, to ask questions and insist on answers. The most common questions avoided are:
- why do you think this is ok - followed by a low key drill down into whether this is a case of willful incomprehension or malicious indifference. 
- what is it you dislike about the experience - from start to finish
- would you be ok if I deprioritized your needs to the same degree

Many male posters stay with: I made a commitment and I believe them - they are committed. And they are consistent in that they steadfastly avoid using the D word with their wives. But the truth is that they also carefully avoid truly destabilizing the relationship. The things they describe doing to get their wives attention, are things that convey the HD partner is angry - but the HD partner avoids doing anything that would genuinely upset their LD spouse. 

This is a big part of the sexless equation - you can't possibly hope for respect if you are unwilling to actually make changes that might cause your spouse to want to LEAVE YOU.






unbelievable said:


> Do you seriously wish to suggest those who turn their "loved" one away routinely and consistently have no inkling that they are harming their "partners" and their marriage? If such people exist, they are either sociopaths or idiots. They know. They absolutely HAVE to know. It's far closer to the truth to say they don't care.


----------



## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

I think my x wife was a #1, she just didn't know the pain it inflicted. I think a lot of it just has to do with mind-set. I don't think she looked at sex as something I needed, it was just something I wanted; therefore, I was just a horny toad. 

She had no desire to read about or talk about sex with anyone, so she was just left to her own ideas. She didn't view sex as an important part of a marriage, and i honestly believe she thought wanting sex on any frequent basis was strange. 

We did discuss it, but never really got anywhere. She couldn't really explain why she had low desire and had no desire to investigate it. She had no complaints with my appearance, and would often comment about how good it made her feel when we did have it, yet, that didn't increase her desire.

We could go for six weeks, and it just seemed to puzzle her as to why I needed sex. Why was it such a big deal?


----------

