# Normal to not participate?



## heywoman (Jul 29, 2013)

I am looking for some opinions on whether a problem in my marriage is normal or whether I'm overreacting and just letting resentment from other issues take on more magnitude.

I have been married for 15 years, and the last few years have been miserable. My husband is passive-aggressive to the nth degree which makes communication, let alone intimacy, darn near impossible. These are issues that have bred a lot of resentment. I am tired of being blamed for everything, being lied to over and over, him constantly playing the victim, the list goes on. 

An issue that keeps recurring, however, has to do with his participation - or lack thereof - in life in general and our relationship in specific. He literally just doesn't participate...but is content to just tag or follow along. He has not planned a single date in well over ten years. He doesn't participate in vacation planning, activities for the kids, or even the course of our day or weekend. If I don't plan everything out for him, or us, he will literally sit on the couch until I tell him to get up and do something...but I have to tell him what that something is. He will do it and then go sit back on the couch, watch TV, and won't move again until he's told to. 

Instead of being constantly frustrated with trying to motivate him, I made a vow to spend this summer focusing on me and my kids. We have had an awesome summer, and I have planned so many different activities. I have reached out to old friends, met some new ones, and the kids and I are just generally "getting a life" after years of spending it in the house because my husband could never agree on anything the rest of us wanted to do so we did nothing. 

So we've had a great summer...except my husband tags along everywhere. At first I didn't mind, but now I'm bitter. I'm tired of spending the time cultivating relationships, new and old, planning things out, making reservations, packing up the kids and car while he sits and does nothing...except feels entitled to join in on the fun. To make matters worse, he will not say a word in the car, so an otherwise lively trip if it's just the kids and I turns into complete silence when he is with us. It's like he goes out of his way to be difficult when he does come along, though, so he ends up having a good time by talking to other people while the kids and I are miserable because he starts an argument or causes a scene minutes into things and then wanders off. 

I'm frustrated, the kids are frustrated, because we are used to having fun when he's not there. I just told him tonight that if he insists on not participating and on ruining everyone's fun when he comes along, then he's just going to have to stay home while we continue to participate in the activities we have planned this summer. Of course, now I'm the bad guy "leaving him out when he has done nothing wrong," and I have heard guilt trip after guilt trip all night long about how mean I am. What I haven't heard is him take an ounce of responsibility for being lazy and for not putting forth any effort into making these plans or ruining them. We have vacation coming up in two weeks. I told him that if he insisted on being completely hands-off and not participating in the planning of anything, then I would like for him to stay home rather than allow him to ruin our trip. Same thing - guilt trip and victim complex.

Am I expecting too much that he would put some effort - any effort - into participating in being involved in his family? And am I wrong for being sick and tired of his entitlement issues where he thinks it's fine to not lift a finger and do any of the work but yet to show up and enjoy the fun yet ruin it for everyone else? 

We both work full-time, but in addition I also do all of the housework, paying the bills, dealing with the kids and animals, et cetera. When he is off work, he is done and sits in front of the TV the rest of the night with very little interaction with the kids and I. I just feel like things are really, really unbalanced...and I'm miserable.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

You already know that things are unbalanced and not normal, or you wouldn't be posting here like this. So what are you going to do about it? You say it's been like this for the last few years; can you think about what changed?

C


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## inquizitivemind (Jul 16, 2013)

Your husband is being selfish. I have never dealt with passive aggressive people, so perhaps a member who has could give you some solid advice on how to handle him. Seriously, I would be miserable too. Hopefully somebody can chime in with some ideas on how to deal with it.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

I think that in most marriages, it's a given that the wife is the social director of the family. Yes, it's great if husbands make plans etc. but for the most part, it falls onto the wife. That said, I could see how your husbands attitude has become tiring. It's one thing that he doesn't initiate plans, but then to go along with you all and act a fool or a complete jerk is ridiculous. 

I would plan things without him. Just put a calendar up somewhere with what the family is doing. If he wants to come that's fine, but in no way do you want to make him feel obligated. If he has attitude (which you can detect before piling in the car) I would tell him he can stay at home and do something he prefers to do.


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## Tomara (Jun 19, 2013)

When planning your trips and outings do you say, hey you do this while I do this so things get done faster? I don't beleive nagging is a good place to start. If all else fails, plan for you and your children.


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## LoveAtDaisys (Jul 3, 2013)

I feel like you could be describing my spouse at times.

Some people are doers, some are followers. Your husband is a follower. Is this okay? Yes, to an extent. It sounds like you - and he - both have to learn to switch roles every once in a while.

It can be really hard for someone who is used to being in control. I say that as the "doer" in my relationship! It's so important that you not fall into the pitfalls 2nt mentions:

- when your husband makes suggestions or makes plans, they may be vastly different than what you would have done. THIS IS OKAY. Don't judge him; in fact, for the first couple tries, I wouldn't say anything negative! Let him learn that he can do things and you will support him. I'd also tell your kids that Daddy is planning a trip and make sure they have fun too; their input is just as important as yours to him.
- It can be tempting to "help" a follower plan, to suggest ideas and to find things to do in addition to their ideas. THIS IS NOT A GOOD IDEA. It takes away a lot of your spouse's initiative; instead of planning a family vacation all by themselves, you are doing the planning for them!
- Accept that you will be doing majority of the planning in your life. It's just the difference in your personalities.

I would also recommend MC; counseling is wonderful even for a relationship that isn't that rocky.

Good luck!


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

Stop paying the cable bill.

Or when it's time to start packing up the car to go somewhere, turn off the tv and say "I need you to do X and Y and Z so that we can get going".

If he wants to tag along on an outing, ask him what he did to help you with the outing. If the answer is nothing, then he can stay home.

Either way, stop putting up with it. You can't change him but you can change what you will accept.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

Come join us. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...live-passive-aggressive-spouse-long-term.html


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## heywoman (Jul 29, 2013)

I will try to address everybody's responses in one reply. Thanks for taking the time to give your thoughts.

As to what happened in the last few years....the only thing that has changed, really, is that I have started implementing boundaries and calling him out on his crazy behaviors. The more I try to set boundaries, the more he is pushing back. It is almost like having a really, really rebellious teenager in the house, like he's on a mission to "show me" that he won't respect any boundaries. 

As one of you said, if he doesn't participate, he can't go. That's where I'm at this summer. I told him that if he insisted on just sitting back, letting me do all the work, and then showing up for the fun stuff that he was going to be left out. Now, I have sucked at keeping with that sometimes because it's easier to let him go than it is to leave him at home. I get tired of being punished for leaving him behind...but then I'm tired of dragging him behind, too. I have a day trip planned this weekend to meet up with a friend I haven't seen -- but we keep in touch by phone and e-mail -- in five years who is going through some life stuff. We plan on letting the kids swim while we hang out and talk through things. The conversation is a girl one, not one that you invite your husband along to. My friend can't stand my husband, to boot. So I have told him explicitly that he will not be going next weekend, no matter how many fits he throws or how many punishments he doles out. That is where things hit a head last night. I fully intend on leaving him behind and not giving in this time, and I think he knows it thus the tantrums and guilt trips and "woe is me" crap last night.

I get that the wives are usually the ones who do most of the planning, and I would be okay with that if he put effort into anything...but he doesn't. He doesn't mow without being told. He can't go to the grocery store without calling ten times for "clarification" on what he should be buying. He does nothing but sit -- and I'm not joking, he sits and sits and sits -- unless he is told to do so. He has no friends of his own, and despite trying to get him out of the house to make some, he is not interested. It's like he is just hell bent on being a dead weight being drug along by me and making me miserable, instead. 

He has been given the opportunity in the past to be the planner, but he has this passive-aggressive stuff down to a science. He will pick things that he knows none of us would enjoy, and truth be told, he wouldn't enjoy it either. It's like he is picking something -- like going to an art museum when none of us are remotely into that -- so that we will say we don't want to go. Then he can say he tried but got shot down. I have tried calling his bluff when he does this and say, "Okay, if that's what you want to do, let's go." He then backpedals and says his back hurts or he has a headache and doesn't want to go now. 

We just recently tried counseling, and although the counselor understood I was frustrated, he said that my husband just feels left out and that I should make more of an effort to include him. Well, that's all well and good, and in normal relationships I'm sure it works that way, but why would I put more effort into including someone who goes out of their way to sabotage everything he participates in? 

This is just one of many issues, and everyone is probably right. It might just be time to get out. I don't have any respect for him anymore, because he doesn't do anything to deserve any. I guess I already knew this in my heart and mind because I started applying for full-time jobs over the weekend and mapping out an escape plan. I work now, but our industry still hasn't recovered from the recession and the work isn't totally steady so I need to shore up that issue before I walk. 

I just don't get why he thinks this is normal.


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## livelaughlovenow (Apr 23, 2012)

Has your relationship always been this way? Did he plan things while you were engaged? Before you had kids? Are you a control freak? I know that when it comes to planning things like that most of the time my husband just goes along with things because he knows I like to have control of the situation... now that being said, occassionally he will plan something quickly because he doesn't think I am spontaneous enoug... balance is the key. You need to talk, not just leave him out, that sends the wrong message I think. I think if you love your husband, then accept him flaws and all... and maybe this is the one thing that you won't be able to change, some people are born leaders, others are born followers adn like others said need directions and instructions on how to participate and be helpful in the process. I also think in most marriages like someone else said, the wife is the social planner.


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## A++ (May 21, 2012)

Are you having an affair with your friend?


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

Does he know you're thinking of leaving him? If you haven't had that conversation, then I think you need to right away. He should know how serious this is for you and that you're at a breaking point.


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## heywoman (Jul 29, 2013)

LMAO, no, no affair with the friend. She is a girl-type friend from years ago who is going through a rough time. This just isn't the kind of life situation stuff that men need to be involved with the discussion on, and I don't see a problem with me meeting up with a friend of mine, on my own with the kids, for a day. If he had friends, he could go hang out with them for a day and leave me behind while they did "boy" stuff and that would be fine. Just because he doesn't have any friends to make that an option isn't my problem and doesn't mean that I shouldn't be able to leave the house without him constantly tagging along. 

I have read Boundaries in Marriage, Codependent No More, and Living With the Passive Aggressive Man, all of which talk about boundaries in detail. It's easy to understand, but sometimes hard to put into practice, I guess. 

He did used to help plan things, but would get frustrated -- as would I -- because he would always forget some detail or another. Sometimes it was a make-or-break detail like reservations after driving for hours, other times it was no big deal. Were there times I was frustrated and got on him about this? Sure, I'm human, and sometimes his oversights were a huge inconvenience. In those instances, it probably bothered me more than anything that if something went wrong, he would just stand there and wait for me to fix it, and we would be in a situation -- like out of state with no hotel or rental car -- where I would have to. It's like he becomes paralyzed in situations like this. Of course, now, I see I always came in and saved the day and he never had to think through things on his own and come up with a solution. All he had to do was sit there and wait for me to take over and smooth things over. Hindsight is crazy sometimes.

As a general rule, though, I'm not a control freak when it comes to planning. I will never be the person that has vacation planned out every minute we are gone or every weekend booked with things to do. I have never left home without making hotel reservations or made them in the wrong city. I also tend to make sure I research things that are going on even around town so that we don't miss out on something awesome whereas he often says, "We live in a crappy state. There's nothing to do" and is happy to sit on the couch the rest of the day honestly believing that there are no options until I come up with something. I am just not buying his contention that he is just completely clueless as to how to go about coming up with ideas for us to do things as a family. It seems like a cop-out to me. We have the Internet, he works with guys who are constantly taking their families camping, fishing, swimming at different places who share this info with him. He has not yet offered up one of those places -- I found out about most at the company picnic -- but will throw out an art museum? It just seems like he is extremely lazy and expects me to be his mother setting up play dates for him where all he has to do is show up.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

It seems like you recognize the source of the problem with him (he's lazy)... the question is what can/will you be able to do about it? 

You can accept he will not lead your family the way you expect him to, and that you will be forever in that role as long as you stay with him. He won't change unless he wants to, that's the reality of it.


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## Prodigal (Feb 5, 2011)

I admire your tenacity. Frankly, I would have gone postal on the guy long ago. Does he interact with his side of the family at all - brothers? sisters? parents? cousins?

I wonder what that bunch is like. Did he come from a family where they tended to focus on complaining and doing little else?

Y'know, it's true that fruit doesn't fall far from the tree ...

The thing with boundaries is you have to enforce them consistently. It is difficult, but it can be done. When I enforced a boundary with my husband, it was this: "If you continue to drink, I will respect your right to do so. However, I will leave you."

Thus, the boundary was to protect my sanity. I issued an ultimatum I could live with, no matter what the consequences. But I had to be willing to stand my ground. I am not saying you should issue the same sort of ultimatum to your husband. However, you have to set boundaries for your benefit. If he respects them, fine. If he doesn't respect them, then there should be consequences for his actions.

My husband? He still drinks. I left almost four years ago. I won't go back. His life. His choices. My life. My choices.


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## pink_lady (Dec 1, 2012)

Passive aggression is a deeply ingrained behavior pattern learned and cultivated in childhood. Counseling may help some but only if the H is very motivated to change.

OP is not going to be able to 'fix' her H's issues by acting slightly differently toward him or saying, 'hey, why don't you plan an outing for the kids, honey!' He would very likely act the same way no matter who he was with, because he sees his spouse as an adversary, not a partner. That is why he obstructs and sabotages her efforts.

OP all you can really do is call out the behavior and set very firm boundaries with him, which you have started already.

I've been where you are, except I did not have children. I would often think to myself, "I'm living with a rebellious 44-year old teenager". When I realized he was not my partner and had no interest in being a partner to me, I walked.

I think you are wise to start working on your exit plan.


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## pink_lady (Dec 1, 2012)

livelaughlovenow said:


> Has your relationship always been this way? Did he plan things while you were engaged? Before you had kids? Are you a control freak? I know that when it comes to planning things like that most of the time my husband just goes along with things because he knows I like to have control of the situation... now that being said, occassionally he will plan something quickly because he doesn't think I am spontaneous enoug... balance is the key. You need to talk, not just leave him out, that sends the wrong message I think. I think if you love your husband, then accept him flaws and all... and maybe this is the one thing that you won't be able to change, some people are born leaders, others are born followers adn like others said need directions and instructions on how to participate and be helpful in the process. I also think in most marriages like someone else said, the wife is the social planner.


No, it's not about him not planning stuff. It's about him deliberately trying to make his wife miserable to 'punish' her for any real or imagined slights. The kids are probably just incidental. It's impossible to grasp this until you've actually lived with an adult who behaves this way.


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## UserAwaitingDeletion (Jan 15, 2012)

As a man I feel some sympathy for him at least because he is not here to put his own case but I am curious Is: this the guy you married? Did he change or did youthink he would change? Is he depressed or unde the weather a bit? Does he get grief if he has preferences.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

heywoman said:


> So we've had a great summer...except my husband tags along everywhere. At first I didn't mind, but now I'm bitter. I'm tired of spending the time cultivating relationships, new and old, planning things out, making reservations, packing up the kids and car while he sits and does nothing...except feels entitled to join in on the fun. To make matters worse, he will not say a word in the car, so an otherwise lively trip if it's just the kids and I turns into complete silence when he is with us.


If you and your children can have a lively trip when he’s not in the car, then you can have one when he is in the car. From the sounds of this you are choosing to shut down when he’s around. That’s not his doing.


heywoman said:


> It's like he goes out of his way to be difficult when he does come along, though, so he ends up having a good time by talking to other people while the kids and I are miserable because he starts an argument or causes a scene minutes into things and then wanders off.


Here is another thing that is your choice. When he walks away, you then let his nonsense dictate your behavior for the rest of the time? Why is that?

Do both you and your husband have jobs outside the home?


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## UserAwaitingDeletion (Jan 15, 2012)

I posted without seeing Pink Lady's contribution. I think she was typing at the same time. i f I had read it I would have saved my breath. Can the supposed 'adversary' become the supposed' partner'? Is it just in his take on it? Either way it doesn't sound like it is in Hey Woman's gift! best of luck with it. nice to see TAM posters supporting people chosing to build an exit plan. i used to think everyone here had you doomed to stay and try until you die - so to speak.


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## pink_lady (Dec 1, 2012)

A Bit Much said:


> It seems like you recognize the source of the problem with him (he's lazy)... the question is what can/will you be able to do about it?
> 
> You can accept he will not lead your family the way you expect him to, and that you will be forever in that role as long as you stay with him. He won't change unless he wants to, that's the reality of it.


Being lazy and being passive-aggressive are not the same thing.


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

My only advice is to let him know very clearly that you are very unhappy and are thinking about divorce over this issue. Then give him 6 months to go to counseling with you or something to change the state of your marriage. 

Otherwise, the poor guy will be here in a month saying that he has a walk away wife and he had no idea you were so unhappy, despite your dozens of conversations. Give him one final, CLEAR opportunity to change. If he can't or doesn't, then you have your answer.


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## Emerald (Aug 2, 2012)

I also agree to let him know that you are thinking about leaving him. Give him chances to change his behaviors. He may be depressed (no friends, no hobbies, no motivation besides his job)....regardless of his issues, they are his to fix.

I cannot believe he even takes his PA behavior so far to want to hang around you & your friend for "girl-talk." Most men would want nothing to do with a day like that.

He is also very selfish. He could care less if he ruins outings/vacations with his grumpy, moody behavior. That tell me he is not being a good Father let alone husband.


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## northernlights (Sep 23, 2012)

My husband is very similar. I will tell you that he actually took charge of planning family weekends when we moved to his home country. Usually I picked the hotel, with much input from him and (dare I say?) teamwork on the issue, but the train tickets and destination were pretty much totally his doing. 

I haven't yet figured out how to translate this kind of initiative back to the US, where his weekend plans are limited to trips to Target ("what? the kids love target!" That's what he tells me). 

Is your husband American? Do you live anywhere near where he grew up? Phrasing a proposed activity that he has any kind of experience with/knowledge about with a "You'll have to show us all ________ this weekend" might clue him in to the idea that he is capable of taking a leadership role. 

Good luck. I hope a solution doesn't involve you moving 3,500 miles away. That was very inconvenient. And impermanent.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

pink_lady said:


> Being lazy and being passive-aggressive are not the same thing.


Her assessment is he's lazy. I can't say one way or the other if he's PA or lazy, my conclusion is that he's just existing. Bump on a log stuff. I don't think his behavior is premeditated, where a PA IMO does have premeditated actions. He's doesn't have some agenda, he's being introverted and anti-social. 

He could be a person that's just not into family stuff. He would prefer to stay home and watch tv to going out and about. Does that make him PA? Not to me.


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## heywoman (Jul 29, 2013)

See, I don't know if the problem really is that he would rather sit home and watch TV. He says he would rather be out doing stuff...he just doesn't want to have to put any effort into thinking of things to go do, getting things together to do them -- in the case of like camping or something. He simply wants me to come up with the ideas, make all the plans and reservations, pack up the kids and car, make boarding arrangements for the dogs. He wants to sit back and let me do all that THEN just show up when the work is done to enjoy the fun that results. That is what I'm having a problem with. 

And I'm not saying that everything we do requires some elaborate planning process, but it does take some effort, whether it's just Googling or reading the local paper to see what's going on, making reservations in some cases, dog boarding in others, packing in others. The point is he will not exert any amount of effort or one minute of thinking to make having a life happen....he wants me to do all the work so that he can just have one. It's very much akin to being his mother setting up play dates and just telling him when and where he's going. Our counselor made the observation that he has an issue of wanting things in life but not wanting to work for them. This is kind of the same thing. He says he wants a life, but he will not do a single thing to get one. He wants a life of fun and friends handed to him. I feel like he's perfectly content to just keep piggy-backing on my effort, my friends, my plans. And I feel smothered. Like in the instance of the girls' weekend this weekend, he has no business being there. As one said, most men wouldn't want to be there. But he is still throwing fits because I told him he can't come. I told him it would not be fair to my friend for her to feel uncomfortable talking about things because of him being there. He said she should just deal with it because he wants to come. It's like if he wants it, it should be, regardless of how anyone else feels about it. 

I told him last night that I had to run my frustrations by some people to see if I was overreacting or whether there might be some merit to my complaint. I also told him that one poster said the same thing I've been telling him, if you don't participate, you don't go. He said he doesn't understand why "everyone is picking on him." I just told him that his "bump on a log" issue is a big one for me, ruining trips for the rest of us is as well, and that he needed to take some time to figure out why he has so many issues in this regard, but that I was not going to put up with it anymore. I told him that if it gets to the point where he has be left behind over and over again because he still chooses not to put forth any effort then there is no reason for us to stay married. He threw a real-live tantrum, stomping through the house, slamming doors, and said I just expect too much from him. Maybe I do....I just don't see it as that. 

Case in point. He is a father of two sons. He has not done one activity with them himself this summer. I have been the one taking the boys fishing two and three times a week. I have no clue what I'm doing and am learning as I go, but it's "boy" things like that that he should just be doing, you know. 

I guess the correlate to this whole thing is I'm tired of having to be mom and dad because he just doesn't feel compelled to do anything but breathe. The sum total of his existence is get up, go to work, come home, eat dinner, watch TV, go to bed...unless he tags along with us otherwise. No interaction with the kids and I otherwise, no help cleaning....just breathing. 

We live in the States and always have. Both of us were born and raised in the very area where we live, so he has no excuse of being ignorant to the activities available to us. He's just an a$$. 

EleGirl, I get what you are saying about choosing to allow him to ruin things. I get that, I really do. But when the kids and I are being silly in the car, singing, making jokes, and he starts yelling at us to shut up because he has a headache, we have few options: Either shut up and ride in strained silence or keep going and really set him off and make things worse. I guess I haven't mastered the whole "get over it and move on" thing when he does these things. They do tick me off, they do put me in a bad mood, they do hamper my ability to enjoy myself when he makes a scene in public or throws a tantrum while we're out. I need to work on that a little more, I guess, not letting his antics affect me quite so much. 

I guess, too, I just feel used. I'm supposed to work, cook, clean, take care of kids and dogs, make all the friends, plan all the activities and he gets to just go to work. It's just really, really unbalanced.


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## heywoman (Jul 29, 2013)

Prodigal said:


> I admire your tenacity. Frankly, I would have gone postal on the guy long ago. Does he interact with his side of the family at all - brothers? sisters? parents? cousins?
> 
> I wonder what that bunch is like. Did he come from a family where they tended to focus on complaining and doing little else?
> 
> ...


I am not sure if it's tenacity or stupidity...but it's definitely been codependent, which I'm working on. 

You know, with regard to his family, he has NO contact with any of them. He has not spoken with his grandparents in over ten years. One passed away and he didn't attend the funeral; the other is in their final days and he refuses to make plans to see them. 

He has no contact with his mom or stepfather, although he used to sporadically. His sister lives not ten minutes from us and he speaks to her like once a year, on Christmas, for five minutes or less, but he prefers to just text if he can get away with it. 

That scenario is playing out here with the kids and I. It's like he has no desire to have a real relationship with anyone, and so he ignores us for the most part. Which is why his insistence that he be included in everything we do baffles me. He wants nothing to do with us on a day-to-day basis, but he wants to come along when there's fun to be had. 

The counselor told me that she thinks he is stuck at age five or six, and so this makes sense. Five or six-year-olds are good at playing, but not much else in the way of responsibility. I guess I see this happening, I know it's happening, I just don't understand it and that's where I'm getting hung up. 

Just interesting that you asked about the family connection...because there is none. His family, though, are not like him at all. They are all go-getters and make-things-happen kind of people...albeit very difficult in terms of going out to eat -- very rude to waitresses, et cetera -- and things like that. I call his mom the Queen because she acts like she certainly is one and should be treated accordingly.


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## scatty (Mar 15, 2013)

He sounds depressed.


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## A Bit Much (Sep 14, 2011)

He does sound like one of the kids really. You're the mommy and you make it all happen for the family.

Single mothers (you said he has a stepdad so I'm sure there was a time she was a single parent) who run things sometimes end up raising boys that think that's what women do... take control and handle it. There's an entire generation of adult men that are perfectly content sitting on their girlfriends or wives couches playing video games while she goes to work 80 hours a week and runs the household. If they work, it's making enough to put gas in the car and buy cigs or hang out with friends. I'm not even kidding.


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