# Alpha vs. Beta Men



## AlphaMale74 (Oct 15, 2014)

The Way of the Alpha Male - GoAskSuzie.com

Just from my experience with women and currently my wife, women are more attracted to and become more sexual with men who genuinely display alpha male characteristics as opposed to beta male. Could this be the reason why some women no longer want to make love to their husbands? Fellas, just because you're married doesn't mean you need to become a beta, which is a turn off for women in general. We all have both characteristics and energy, but which one do we display more?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

You missed this guy!










What does he do?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

This again? The most alpha you can be is not giving a crap if some sh!t-head on goasksuzie thinks you are an alpha or not.


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## MrsHolland (Jun 18, 2016)

I am madly devoted too, attracted too and can't keep my hands off MrH because he is a good, decent, funny, intelligent man with a high EQ and IQ. He is sexy as all hell which is the winning ingredient.

Alpha, beta who gives a s.hit? Everything in balance is always the best way.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Yay!

This thread again!


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Quick, someone start a penis size thread.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I fully admit that my current bf and my ex-h could be viewed as the typical "alpha male" as generally described in these types of links. And I also admit I am so damn hot for them.

But the thing is, I have many girlfriends who are sexual creatures like I am, who would say "Him? Ew." if asked if my guy is hot. 

These girls are hot for and chase after guys who are completely a turn off to me. Guys I like are a turn off for them. 

Thus proving the age old wisdom that there is someone for everyone. There is no group or person who holds the keys to all the panties in the world. It is silly to think there is, and why would we want there to be only one type of person who gets laid, whether male or female? How freaking boring would that be?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

GusPolinski said:


> Quick, someone start a penis size thread.


Let's just combine them here.

Random fact: the average alpha male has an average sized penis, while the average beta male also has an average sized penis.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

GusPolinski said:


> Quick, someone start a penis size thread.


Yeah nothing says Alpha more then writing about it on the internet right. :grin2:


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

MrsHolland said:


> I am madly devoted too, attracted too and can't keep my hands off MrH because he is a good, decent, funny, intelligent man with a high EQ and IQ. He is sexy as all hell which is the winning ingredient.
> 
> 
> 
> Alpha, beta who gives a s.hit? Everything in balance is always the best way.




You will never convince the self-identifying alpha guys of this.

I am older than the poster without a doubt and this alpha / beta argument is really only a recent phenomenon. In my day we had pretty clear role models, and they were mostly fashioned as honest, hard working, thoughtful (but perhaps a bit gruff), and willing to do the right thing.

We all knew about the "cement head" football guys - mostly kind of dumb - but they weren't looked up to by anyone I knew of. Everyone who was that way were on steroids, which were more or less openly used in high school and in all the gyms.

Other than those guys I have no idea where the alpha idea came from.

None of the women I grew up with (girls then and women now) have been attracted to guys that treat them poorly. All are attracted to funny guys. All are attracted to motivated and or successful guys (guys with a purpose - not necessarily money). All STAY attracted to guys who listen and treat them well. Many are attracted to smart guys.

I think if a guy has a few of those attributes and shows a women she is his priority, and doesn't have any serious negative attributes, he does well.

Perhaps it isn't the "alpha" that is attractive at all. Perhaps it's some bad qualities that people label beta that are the issue. Things like a lack of motivation or purpose, an unwillingness to do the right thing (or hard thing) that are the real issues. So IMO if you deal with the negatives you can be as gentle as you want and still be a winner.

Anyway that's all the sense I can make of this topic (ha ha that emoji was accidental - a Freudian slip of the keyboard -but I guess I'm even boring myself to sleep here so I'll stop the drivel).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## maritalloneliness (Mar 18, 2015)

Women not girls are attracted to decent, hard working, intelligent, devoted good men. I'm attracted to a man who is strong enough to be vulnerable with his feelings but who is purpose driven and who will stand by me and be my support ( what ever form that will be) in the eye of the storm.
No one wants a man that lacks integrity, physically means, verbally demeaning and who is weak in character and deed.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

AlphaMale74 said:


> The Way of the Alpha Male - GoAskSuzie.com
> 
> Just from my experience with women and currently my wife, women are more attracted to and become more sexual with men who genuinely display alpha male characteristics as opposed to beta male. Could this be the reason why some women no longer want to make love to their husbands? Fellas, just because you're married doesn't mean you need to become a beta, which is a turn off for women in general. We all have both characteristics and energy, but which one do we display more?


I am normally wary of the whole alpha/beta thing, but this article was very good. It was more about maturing as a man than trying to lay every female in the vicinity, which is how I usually view the "alpha" idea.

Here is one thing, among many, that stood out to me from the article: "The mature man marries to share values. The immature man marries to meet needs."

I can totally see the guys described as "betas" not getting laid, ever. And no wonder.

Thanks for linking this, AlphaMale74. A worthwhile read.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

From the article:

_The term alpha (mature) male applies to:

Men who answer the call to grow mentally and emotionally
Men who take responsibility for their own mind and emotions
Men who are loyal to honesty and to living in tune with reality
Men who accept the responsibility to direct their own destinies
Men who make decisions based on what is right, not what is easy
Men who negotiate based on what is good for them AND good for others
Men who make themselves students of life, rather than victims of life
Men who are motivated to learn

How can you spot an alpha male?

The alpha male has three things working for him:

His calm and stable energy
His emotional mastery
His mature masculine power_

There was also a very good info graphic that I am not sure how to link. It contrasts mature (alpha) and immature (beta) men.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I see no issues with the article as I think in general many of the "alpha" qualities listed are positive qualities. Honestly though, if you look at the list, and as a guy, wouldn't you want a female who exhibited many of the same "alpha" characteristics? 

OK, just found a yard stick so off to measure my penis ... >


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

From the next article in the series:

_What she’s really responding to isn’t a man’s words, but his energy. Therefore, if (or when) a man displays calm masculine energy, she responds to him with desire and respect. But if (or when) he displays unstable masculine energy, she responds with rejection and disrespect.

Why is calm masculine energy so important to women?

That can be summed up in one word: trust. *For women, trust is the ultimate currency — in life, in love, and in marriage. To a woman, trust represents both safety and freedom. *Am I saying that your ability to display calm masculine energy is one of the keys to recapturing her respect and admiration? YES! That’s exactly what I’m saying._


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## Mr.StrongMan (Feb 10, 2016)

I read a book on sexless marriage and alpha male vs beta males... it makes sense... but you can pin the theory on every relationship... that would be impossible.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I see no issues with the article as I think in general many of the "alpha" qualities listed are positive qualities. Honestly though, if you look at the list, and as a guy, wouldn't you want a female who exhibited many of the same "alpha" characteristics?
> 
> OK, just found a yard stick so off to measure my penis ... >


Ellis, do you know how to post that info graphic of the mature v. the immature man?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Mr.StrongMan said:


> I read a book on sexless marriage and alpha male vs beta males... it makes sense... but you can pin the theory on every relationship... that would be impossible.


I don't think it would hurt any man to consider what the article is saying.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> From the article:
> 
> _The term alpha (mature) male applies to:
> 
> ...


Based on the above super generalities I'm more alpha than Clint Eastwood...










Hint, people. Only morons or trust fund babes or the superwealthy are inflexible enough that they exhibit the same traits 24/7/365. Even my cat drops his alpha feline pretenses when he wants a belly rub...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Based on the above super generalities I'm more alpha than Clint Eastwood...
> 
> Hint, people. Only morons or trust fund babes or the superwealthy are inflexible enough that they exhibit the same traits 24/7/365. Even my cat drops his alpha feline pretenses when he wants a belly rub...


John, I think your posts about your marriage scream, "I think I am a victim!" That is not "alpha," according to this article.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The problem with a lot of the Alpha / Beta discussions is that all positive attributes are ascribed to "alphas" and all negative ones to "betas". That simply reduces to the near-tautology that women prefer better men. Useless.

Possibly a better division is that Alpha men value being in control and insist on getting their own way. This can be positive (leadership), and negative (backstabbing, obnoxious Aholes). To a significant extent a beta male will work for the benefit of others, an alpha male for his own benefit.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> John, I think your posts about your marriage scream, "I think I am a victim!" That is not "alpha," according to this article.


Reporting facts is hardly being a victim


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> The problem with a lot of the Alpha / Beta discussions is that all positive attributes are ascribed to "alphas" and all negative ones to "betas". That simply reduces to the near-tautology that women prefer better men. Useless.
> 
> Possibly a better division is that Alpha men value being in control and insist on getting their own way. This can be positive (leadership), and negative (backstabbing, obnoxious Aholes). To a significant extent a beta male will work for the benefit of others, an alpha male for his own benefit.


Did you read the article linked in the OP?


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

john117 said:


> Reporting facts is hardly being a victim


But when looking at the facts, you can see a glass half empty or a glass half full. It is a matter of perspective.

In this article can't we replace Alpha with successful and Beta with failing? Alpha is looking at the facts and seeing opportunities.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

john117 said:


> Reporting facts is hardly being a victim




Like many of us here, you CHOOSE to stay in a bad marriage. 

Just a fact.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

And non alphas don't?

Dug, very few things in life are absolute. That's the very first lesson we learn in life...


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

john117 said:


> And non alphas don't?
> 
> Dug, very few things in life are absolute. That's the very first lesson we learn in life...




You absolutely hate your marriage


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> You absolutely hate your marriage


Lolz 😁

Hate is an emotion and as such it tends to be absolute, only because the negatives overpower the positives...

I do see the positives, good money, good housekeeping, low interference, great cook, likes art, agrees on spending obscene sums towards kids education... But those aren't enough to cover the negatives.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

john117 said:


> Lolz 😁
> 
> Hate is an emotion and as such it tends to be absolute, only because the negatives overpower the positives...
> 
> I do see the positives, good money, good housekeeping, low interference, great cook, likes art, agrees on spending obscene sums towards kids education... But those aren't enough to cover the negatives.


That is a pretty good list of positives.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> In this article can't we replace Alpha with successful and Beta with failing?


This is exactly how we should look at it. Terminology matters. 

The whole Alpha/Beta thing is at its heart a means of establishing a pecking order AMONG men. It's not about attracting women. Most of the self described "Alpha" guys are really more interested in getting power over (and adulation of) other men. Going on and on about how Alpha you are, and what a REAL MAN you are just screams about your underlying insecurity.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

john117 said:


> Lolz
> 
> Hate is an emotion and as such it tends to be absolute, only because the negatives overpower the positives...
> 
> I do see the positives, good money, good housekeeping, low interference, great cook, likes art, agrees on spending obscene sums towards kids education... But those aren't enough to cover the negatives.




Low interfernce with TAM time is a high positive.


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

Fozzy said:


> This is exactly how we should look at it. Terminology matters.
> 
> The whole Alpha/Beta thing is at its heart a means of establishing a pecking order AMONG men. It's not about attracting women. Most of the self described "Alpha" guys are really more interested in getting power over (and adulation of) other men. Going on and on about how Alpha you are, and what a REAL MAN you are just screams about your underlying insecurity.




Interesting. So admitting you are beta means you have confidence. Which makes you alpha. 

Now my head hurts.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

sokillme said:


> This again? The most alpha you can be is not giving a crap if some sh!t-head on goasksuzie thinks you are an alpha or not.


Totally...this topic keeps coming around like a bad penny.

There is a lot to be said for just being a genuine person. FFS


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Duguesclin said:


> That is a pretty good list of positives.


I don't think I am telling you anything you don't already know, Dug, but none of it matters without emotional intimacy.

Then again, this might make me beta...

:grin2:


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MarriedDude said:


> Totally...this topic keeps coming around like a bad penny.
> 
> There is a lot to be said for just being a genuine person. FFS


QFT.

Be the person you want to be, and let the chips fall where they may.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I don't think I am telling you anything you don't already know, Dug, but none of it matters without emotional intimacy.
> 
> Then again, this might make me beta...
> 
> :grin2:


Far, did you read the article in the OP? 

It was not the usual alpha/beta sexual stuff. It was more about being a mature man. Emotional maturity invites emotional intimacy.

The article was very good, especially the infographic on the second page.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MarriedDude said:


> Totally...this topic keeps coming around like a bad penny.
> 
> There is a lot to be said for just being a genuine person. FFS


Again, did you read the article in the OP? It is not the usual fare.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

My fiance is what could be considered ''alpha,'' in looks, personality, etc. But, alpha to me isn't just a looks thing, or a personality thing. It is a traditional thing, like he is very humble and wants to take care of me, kind of thing. Not because he thinks I'm weak but he just wants to. I have typically dated guys that'd be considered alpha, but a lot of alpha types are jerks, so to me, it's not just what they looks like or how they act around women that makes them alpha, but more of a traditional sense of how they treat women. But at the same time, I don't really like labels much. lol That's just my thoughts to it, anyways.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> That is a pretty good list of positives.


I'll let you in on a little design profession secret. It's in art, architecture, product design... 

All it takes is ONE flaw to spoil an otherwise good piece of work. One. Just one.

It's no different in humans.


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## MarriedDude (Jun 21, 2014)

jld said:


> Again, did you read the article in the OP? It is not the usual fare.


I did. I also Bow Hunt...Have for most of my life....So I would tend to lean towards the authors assertions. However, Again, it's really about just being who you are. 

On another note...We (My family) -have begun moving away from Bow Hunting and have started using sharpened 6' pieces of Rebar...I don't particularly believe that makes us super alpha...just that we HAVE to have the challenge


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## 225985 (Dec 29, 2015)

john117 said:


> I'll let you in on a little design profession secret. It's in art, architecture, product design...
> 
> All it takes is ONE flaw to spoil an otherwise good piece of work. One. Just one.
> 
> It's no different in humans.




Even the most perfect diamond has a flaw. Nothing is flawless. 

It's no secret. 

And what might be considered a flaw by you could be considered a positive by someone else. 

Your flaw detector may be out of calibration.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

MarriedDude said:


> I did. I also Bow Hunt...Have for most of my life....So I would tend to lean towards the authors assertions. However, Again, it's really about just being who you are.
> 
> On another note...We (My family) -have begun moving away from Bow Hunting and have started using sharpened 6' pieces of Rebar...I don't particularly believe that makes us super alpha...just that we HAVE to have the challenge


Tbh, I skipped the introduction with the bow hunting. I went right to the part on maturity. I really liked the info graphic. What did you think of it, MD?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

This is where I started reading, @MarriedDude:

_"We define the alpha male as any man who has consciously taken responsibility for mastering his destiny and is willing to master his own mind and emotions.

Because of his commitment to self-mastery, the alpha male consistently displays calm and stable energy, consistency in thought, and consistency in taking right actions. Therefore, the alpha male effortlessly enjoys the highest levels of love, prosperity, power, romantic success, passion and satisfaction… because he’s able to actualize his full mental, emotional and spiritual potential in this life.

Note: The term alpha male doesn’t apply to looks, wealth or status, and it doesn’t mean aggression or dominance, as in the animal kingdom. In our human social structure, the term strictly applies to a man’s decision to master his mind and emotions."_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

blueinbr said:


> Even the most perfect diamond has a flaw. Nothing is flawless.
> 
> It's no secret.
> 
> ...


I wish.

We use product review websites to see what consumers who buy our stuff think after they have had time with the product. Flaws and positives are coded and recorded for analysis and further study.

The human mind works more or less the same way. Early on we calibrate our "flaw meter" based on culture, personality, and many other factors. Then, we use this set of measurements to assess a new situation. This isn't a "he's bad because he drives a cheap car" type flaw, rather, a lot of thought goes into assessing negativity and its implications. 

I could talk for days about this but I'll spare TAM the TED talk .


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

See, I still don't get the point of that article except making it a "male" discussion purely for page views. For example, take the below from the article:



> The term alpha (mature) male applies to:
> 
> Men who answer the call to grow mentally and emotionally
> Men who take responsibility for their own mind and emotions
> ...


Now replace male/men with female/women (when I say replace I mean just the words, not a Bruce Jenner "switch"). Would you not also describe this as a mature female? So it appears that the article is more looking at good/bad qualities of a *mature adult*, but the author is trying to make it an Alpha/Beta male debate knowing that it will likely grab more headlines.


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## Síocháin (Mar 11, 2016)

Ok, this thread has me curious. Let me give you a what if:

What if you were out one night without your SO and a person you were with began making fun of her for whatever reason. What would an alpha do compared to a beta?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Yes, it uses a new definition of "alpha" as being mature. Just another version of "good". 

Unless people are willing to list negative issues with being Alpha and positive ones with being Beta, it is simply a redefinition of the terms to mean "good" and "poor" and reaching the unremarkable conclusion that women prefer good men to poor men.

Traditionally "alpha" is about position in the social hierarchy, something completely different.



jld said:


> Did you read the article linked in the OP?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Síocháin said:


> Ok, this thread has me curious. Let me give you a what if:
> 
> What if you were out one night without your SO and a person you were with began making fun of her for whatever reason. What would an alpha do compared to a beta?


If we were all attending kindergarten to third grade I would beat the snot out of him. Anything older than 3rd grade would likely result into smiling politely and ignoring the guy...


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think traditionally an alpha would feel that they have to respond, possibly escalating into physical violence. A beta would find a way to dismiss / ignore.

If I'm right, then alphas spend more time in prison or hospitals.....



Síocháin said:


> Ok, this thread has me curious. Let me give you a what if:
> 
> What if you were out one night without your SO and a person you were with began making fun of her for whatever reason. What would an alpha do compared to a beta?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> This is where I started reading, @MarriedDude:
> 
> _"We define the alpha male as any man who has consciously taken responsibility for mastering his destiny and is willing to master his own mind and emotions.
> 
> ...


Anyone who's that focused on ones self, is no Alpha and is going to fail. 



> John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends.


There were no greater Alpha's ever then those men and woman who climbed up those burning towers to help people they didn't know and died for it. Or the ones who volunteeringly fought to help their fellow countrymen. The philosophy of the paragraphs like this one here, to me don't really get it. They are all about self, me, I and defining that as somehow being a man are everything that is wrong in our postmodern society. It explains how we as men have failed and why our society is the way it is. If your focus is on yourself all the time you won't get there. The greatest generation as they are called now a days went to war and for the future of the world, nothing about self mastery. That's the GREATEST generation, and I won't say otherwise. Nope my commitment is not to myself, is to my wife, my family and my friends. F*ck all the other crap in this paragraph.

The philosophy in the scripture I just posted is how you become an Alpha. Want to be calm, with stable energy, consistency in thought, and consistency in taking right actions. Care about your honor first and foremost. Get your value from your honor, how you treat others, how you value others, do the right thing when it is hard, put your family and friends above yourself even and because it is an act of faith. (notice I didn't say from your family and friends love.) You do that, you understand that that is what makes you valuable, that is what makes you a man, and you damn sure will be calm, you will be consistent, you will take the right actions. The secret is your focus can't be yourself. 

I'm sure to many people this sounds old fashion, and quaint. I don't care this is the kind of man I always looked up to, these are the kind of men who will always be Alphas to me. 

End of rant and Merry Christmas!

Where's the Tylenol.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> OK, just found a yard stick so off to measure my penis ... >




At least you can measure your penis. How do I measure the length and girth of my vagina?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

High precision digital calipers?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Now replace male/men with female/women (when I say replace I mean just the words, not a Bruce Jenner "switch"). Would you not also describe this as a mature female? So it appears that the article is more looking at good/bad qualities of a *mature adult*, but the author is trying to make it an Alpha/Beta male debate knowing that it will likely grab more headlines.


The OP linked the article as a way to help men who are not having sex as often as they like. It seems the author of the article believes that becoming more mature might help men in their sexless or undersexed marriages. Look at the subtitle:

_The Way Of The Alpha Male

*The Traits That (Re)Capture Her Admiration, Desire and Loyalty*_


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> My fiance is what could be considered ''alpha,'' in looks, personality, etc. But, alpha to me isn't just a looks thing, or a personality thing. It is a traditional thing, like he is very humble and wants to take care of me, kind of thing. Not because he thinks I'm weak but he just wants to. *I have typically dated guys that'd be considered alpha, but a lot of alpha types are jerks*, so to me, it's not just what they looks like or how they act around women that makes them alpha, but more of a traditional sense of how they treat women. But at the same time, I don't really like labels much. lol That's just my thoughts to it, anyways.


Just out of curiosity Isn't it possible that what you actually dated were beta guys acting as alphas which is commonly now suggested on how to attract women? Really I think you could replace the alpha / beta with confident non confident but like you I'm not into labels.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> See, I still don't get the point of that article except making it a "male" discussion purely for page views. For example, take the below from the article:
> 
> 
> 
> Now replace male/men with female/women (when I say replace I mean just the words, not a Bruce Jenner "switch"). Would you not also describe this as a mature female? So it appears that the article is more looking at good/bad qualities of a *mature adult*, but the author is trying to make it an Alpha/Beta male debate knowing that it will likely grab more headlines.


Making a great point here. Could be a great read for those who seemingly have such a hard time in life being an adult. many who are already this way probably wonder how other can live not being this way naturally


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> At least you can measure your penis. How do I measure the length and girth of my vagina?


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


>




I have no idea how that would measure my vagina? What is it? I'm serious and embarrassed


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

notmyrealname4 said:


> At least you can measure your penis. How do I measure the length and girth of my vagina?





john117 said:


> High precision digital calipers?




Well, considering a vagina is soft, kinda squishy and somewhat like a collapsed balloon----I can't see how????

We're in a weird place between seriousness and humor here. I mean I'm actually wondering how the "resting state" of a vagina could be measured. While I also realize it's kind of a stupid thing to wonder about . . .


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I have no idea how that would measure my vagina? What is it? I'm serious and embarrassed


Person: So what did you do Christmas morning?

Me: Talked with strangers online about the best method to measure their vagina

>:rofl:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Yes, it uses a new definition of "alpha" as being mature. Just another version of "good".
> 
> Unless people are willing to list negative issues with being Alpha and positive ones with being Beta, it is simply a redefinition of the terms to mean "good" and "poor" and reaching the unremarkable conclusion that women prefer good men to poor men.
> 
> Traditionally "alpha" is about position in the social hierarchy, something completely different.


I think she is trying to help men in sexless or undersexed marriages. She likely has a clue as to why they are in that position.

She is trying to speak their language in order to help them and their families.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Read the book about the research of Masters and Johnson, I think they had to deal with a lot of this type of measurement. 

I think given the anatomy you have to define width given pressure applied to the walls, not simply width... So calipers with piezoelectric or other mechatronic pressure gauge ends plus calipers.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Repost sorry


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I have no idea how that would measure my vagina? What is it? I'm serious and embarrassed


You would measure it by volume not length or width.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Person: So what did you do Christmas morning?
> 
> Me: Talked with strangers online about the best method to measure their vagina
> 
> >:rofl:




I'm not saying a word about stocking stuffers, nope, no way, not me.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> You would measure it by volume not length or width.




Makes sense; but hard to do in the "resting state", where there's basically no volume.


Massive t/j; sorry OP


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> Makes sense; but hard to do in the "resting state", where there's basically no volume.
> 
> 
> Massive t/j; sorry OP


I was joking!!!


----------



## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

AlphaMale74 said:


> The Way of the Alpha Male - GoAskSuzie.com
> 
> Just from my experience with women and currently my wife, women are more attracted to and become more sexual with men who genuinely display alpha male characteristics as opposed to beta male. Could this be the reason why some women no longer want to make love to their husbands? Fellas, just because you're married doesn't mean you need to become a beta, which is a turn off for women in general. We all have both characteristics and energy, but which one do we display more?



Maybe after reading this fake internet "relationship expert's" advice you could purchase and read some of her other marketing materials.

Before Suzie Johnson and her husband set up goasssuzie dot com so she could work out of the house and be home with their children more, she was "saving marriages" by training and promoting passion parties selling sex toys to housewives.

Suzie Johnson's Passion Party Training Tapes on Amazon


Her husband, Brad Johnson, is a internet marketing expert who figured out betrayed spouses are a very desperate and exploitable "niche" market on the internet. They'll buy anything that promises to work.

 Brad Johnson's Meet Up profile 

The articles/content on their website were mostly written by ghostwriters Brad hired on a website call Upwork.

As far as critiquing her actual expertise and "work" as a "relationship coach" perhaps this article where she promotes the concept of marriage contracts and an "amnesty weekend" whereby, in exchange one spouse gets a weekend per year to literally "do" whatever and whomever they want is promoted. Suzie thinks you should just let your husband/spouse cheat. Why more women are letting their husbands cheat | New York Post

Personally, I agree with the others....this alpha/beta man stuff is a bunch of crap.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Quality said:


> Maybe after reading this fake internet "relationship expert's" advice you could purchase and read some of her other marketing materials.
> 
> Before Suzie Johnson and her husband set up goasssuzie dot com so she could work out of the house and be home with their children more, she was "saving marriages" by training and promoting passion parties selling sex toys to housewives.
> 
> ...


I did not know any of the background on Suzie or her husband. I still do not see how that discredits the advice in the article.

Did you read the article?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anyone who's alpha (lol) 100% is a moron, and anyone who's (lol) 100% beta is a doormat.

The rest of us adapt as needed. That's the fallacy of the article. 

The He-Man 100% alpha guy will cower to his beta boss if he's room temperature IQ or better, and the Beta Guy will stand up for himself when needed.

Genuine Alpha muhaha


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Anyone who's alpha (lol) 100% is a moron, and anyone who's (lol) 100% beta is a doormat.
> 
> The rest of us adapt as needed. That's the fallacy of the article.
> 
> ...


I'm sure the author could do without the alpha beta labels, too, john. They are a draw for guys who otherwise would not read the article, and are wondering why their wives either do not want to have sex with them, or not very often.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I'm sure the author could do without the alpha beta labels, too, john. They are a draw for guys who otherwise would not read the article, and are wondering why their wives either do not want to have sex with them, or not very often.


Such labels are yet another simple way to explain human behavior. Too bad they aren't remotely related to reality.

Take it from someone who knows a thing or two about human behavior... There's a lot more to it than simple labels. An awful lot more. If you think it was simple enough so that we could label human behavior such that "alpha guys buy Android and drive Dodge Chargers" vs "beta guys buy iPhone and drive Honda Accords" I would be out of a job on Monday...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Such labels are yet another simple way to explain human behavior. Too bad they aren't remotely related to reality.
> 
> Take it from someone who knows a thing or two about human behavior... There's a lot more to it than simple labels. An awful lot more. If you think it was simple enough so that we could label human behavior such that "alpha guys buy Android and drive Dodge Chargers" vs "beta guys buy iPhone and drive Honda Accords" I would be out of a job on Monday...


I don't think the labels are what bother you about that article, john.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I don't think the labels are what bother you about that article, john.


They are not bothering me... The article is another one in a series of pop psychology, completely detached from the complexity of real human behavior...


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

jld said:


> I did not know any of the background on Suzie or her husband. I still do not see how that discredits the advice in the article.
> 
> Did you read the article?


Their background matters to me because it indicates whether they have any particular qualifications to offer advice, and whether financial considerations might be driving what they do.

I read the article. It struck me as clickbait. No deep insights, but reads ok till you start to think more deeply about things. If it had explored the way you balance what it has labelled alpha and beta, it might have been more interesting and useful.

For example. "Marries to share values" vs "Marries to meet needs". I'm sure all of us marry to meet needs, but it becomes unattractive when we let our needs get out of focus and become needy. The words in the article might resonate with what you would describe as attractive in a man, but are they realistic? Is there a level in which Dug's marriage to you meets needs (I bet there is, and that's a good thing in my view) and if so how does that fit with the article?

Or "life is love based" vs "life is fear driven". Most, if not all, of us have known both of these, and that's a good thing. What matters is how you deal with both, not that you choose one (that has positive connotations) over the other (that has negative connotations). What is love anyway? It means a whole lot of different things. 

"Together we win" vs "every man for himself". Theres a bit of "every man for himself" in all of us. For example, it's what you advise when you advise someone to walk away from a marriage that is no longer meeting their needs. Change things so your needs are met, and it is the other person's problem to deal with the impact on them. It is very hard for choosing to end a marriage and cite it as an example of "together we win" 

So that's my thought. The article is designed to resonate emotionally based on cliche to attract readers and make money, not to offer any real insight.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> They are not bothering me... The article is another one in a series of pop psychology, completely detached from the complexity of real human behavior...


I think there is plenty in that article to learn from, john. That infographic in particular was very good. Too bad we cannot post it here.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

jld said:


> i think there is plenty in that article to learn from, john. That infographic in particular was very good. Too bad we cannot post it here.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Wazza said:


> So that's my thought. The article is designed to resonate emotionally based on cliche to attract readers and make money, not to offer any real insight.


I agree that the author's (if she is even the real author) goal is to make money. However, the message makes a lot of sense. We may want to label it differently than alpha / beta, but women like the traits described under the alpha label.

Why could not this be a goal for men to achieve?


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

MarriedDude said:


> I did. I also Bow Hunt...Have for most of my life....So I would tend to lean towards the authors assertions. However, Again, it's really about just being who you are.
> 
> On another note...We (My family) -have begun moving away from Bow Hunting and have started using sharpened 6' pieces of Rebar...I don't particularly believe that makes us super alpha...just that we HAVE to have the challenge


A true alpha would just beat their prey to death with their penis!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Duguesclin said:


> I agree that the author's (if she is even the real author) goal is to make money. However, the message makes a lot of sense. We may want to label it differently than alpha / beta, but women like the traits described under the alpha label.
> 
> Why could not this be a goal for men to achieve?


Well, take one of the examples I gave. Do you have needs from the marriage, and if so how does that fit with the infographic?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Consistent winner? Love motivated?

Yikes. This is worse than I thought


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> Consistent winner? Love motivated?
> 
> Yikes. This is worse than I thought


John I don't think you are taking this seriously.These con artists,sorry I mean genuine folk are just trying to help us poor men to realise why some of us haven't had our wicked way in a while😂😂😂😂😂.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> John I don't think you are taking this seriously.These con artists,sorry I mean genuine folk are just trying to help us poor men to realise why some of us haven't had our wicked way in a while😂😂😂😂😂.


Now you're catching on!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Thank you, @Emerging Buddhist! I asked Ellis if he could post it, but I don't think he was able to. 

It would be nice if it were a little bigger, though. I had to click on it to be able to read it.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Wazza said:


> Well, take one of the examples I gave. Do you have needs from the marriage, and if so how does that fit with the infographic?


Let's take a need common to many men; sex. It gets fulfilled as a result of the men's mature behavior. It is not the duty of your wife to give you sex. She should have sex because she is inspired by you, not because she is obligated or threatened by you.

Children are helpless and need to have their needs met. We men are not. We have a lot of power. 

Although this site is totally about money and I would not trust this lady for good advice, the list she put up is good and we should all be inspired by it.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jld said:


> Now you're catching on!


Please tell me that you don't believe this rubbish.Judging by your last comment I don't think you do but I'm not sure.The Internet is full of this crap and it's only when you research the authors that you realise that it is soup du jour,whatever today's current subject is,suddenly they are experts and can quote numerous professors that will back up their crap.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> Please tell me that you don't believe this rubbish.Judging by your last comment I don't think you do but I'm not sure.The Internet is full of this crap and it's only when you research the authors that you realise that it is soup du jour,whatever today's current subject is,suddenly they are experts and can quote numerous professors that will back up their crap.


Why do you think it is rubbish, Andy? I do not mean the bow hunting part. That might be, not sure. But the infographic that EB just posted was very good.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Duguesclin said:


> Let's take a need common to many men; sex. It gets fulfilled as a result of the men's mature behavior. It is not the duty of your wife to give you sex. She should have sex because she is inspired by you, not because she is obligated or threatened by you.
> 
> Children are helpless and need to have their needs met. We men are not. We have a lot of power.
> 
> Although this site is totally about money and I would not trust this lady for good advice, the list she put up is good and we should all be inspired by it.


You don't seem to allow for the fact your wife may be sexually attracted to you Dug.Surely after marriage, sex is not an obligation or something subject to negotiation,is it not a spontaneous action shared by two people in love with each other.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Ellis, rereading that list, I agree with you that becoming more mature can benefit both men and women. 

But I suspect not too many wives find their husbands turning down sex with them because they perceive the wives to be behaving in an immature way. If my own experience is anything to go by, a husband is pretty much ready to have sex no matter what.

Otoh, if my husband were to behave the way the immature men on the other list do, I can't imagine we would be having much sex at all, or even still be married to each other. I would not be a bit inspired by that sort of behavior.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jld said:


> Why do you think it is rubbish, Andy? I do not mean the bow hunting part. That might be, not sure. But the infographic that EB just posted was very good.


Because the people publishing this "informative subject matter"don't care a damn whether it is true or not,they only want the revenue gained from adverts on their site or maybe someone actually subscribes to their publications.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> You don't seem to allow for the fact your wife may be sexually attracted to you Dug.Surely after marriage, sex is not an obligation or something subject to negotiation,is it not a spontaneous action shared by two people in love with each other.


Of course I am sexually attracted to Dug. But if he were a jerk to me, that attraction would not prevent my love and respect from draining away. And without that, I could not continue to be married to him.

Honestly, part of that physical/sexual attraction is emotional. Dug exudes calmness and confidence. Dug is stable and trustworthy, and I swear you can just feel that in his presence.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> Because the people publishing this "informative subject matter"don't care a damn whether it is true or not,they only want the revenue gained from adverts on their site or maybe someone actually subscribes to their publications.


Well, we cannot be sure of that. Yes, there is the profit motive. But if they only wanted money, they would more likely write the usual stuff about dressing more fashionably and lifting weights. I have to say, I really wonder how many wives that sort of fluff actually works on, and for how long.

Instead, this author chose a more important, lasting way to inspire a wife's affection. 

Improve your character, gentlemen, and not only will you inspire your wife, but your children, your co-workers, and the world at large may be inspired to improve, too. We can all raise the level a little bit in our own way.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jld said:


> Of course I am sexually attracted to Dug. But if he were a jerk to me, that attraction would not prevent my love and respect from draining away. And without that, I could not continue to be married to him.
> 
> Honestly, part of that physical/sexual attraction is emotional. Dug exudes calmness and confidence. Dug is stable and trustworthy, and I swear you can just feel that in his presence.


Dug exudes calmness and confidence,is stable and trustworthy.In any spouse that has to be immense sexual attraction.And you can feel it in his presence.You are a lucky woman and you don't need some Internet demigod for verification.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Dug exudes calmness and confidence. Dug is stable and trustworthy, and I swear you can just feel that in his presence.


And I'm level 215 in Angry Birds 2, have a world class ELO rating in backgammon, and held the university high score in Pac-Man... 

I'm pretty stable, too, usually calm and generally beyond confident, and while I'm not exactly as trustworthy as Abe Lincoln (the deadline is when?) I get things done. 

I don't see interns swooning for me . There's many different yardsticks to use when measuring or assessing someone.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> Just out of curiosity Isn't it possible that what you actually dated were beta guys acting as alphas which is commonly now suggested on how to attract women? Really I think you could replace the alpha / beta with confident non confident but like you I'm not into labels.


That could definitely be! I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. I tend to think of ''alpha'' (if I must use a label lol) as my dad or my fiance. They are not threatened by women, they respect women, and are just genuinely masculine.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> Dug exudes calmness and confidence,is stable and trustworthy.In any spouse that has to be immense sexual attraction.And you can feel it in his presence.You are a lucky woman and you don't need some Internet demigod for verification.


I am a _very_ lucky woman. And that article is not verification of anything. 

I do agree with it, though. And I definitely think it could help many men.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> And I'm level 215 in Angry Birds 2, have a world class ELO rating in backgammon, and held the university high score in Pac-Man...
> 
> I'm pretty stable, too, usually calm and generally beyond confident, and while I'm not exactly as trustworthy as Abe Lincoln (the deadline is when?) I get things done.
> 
> I don't see interns swooning for me . There's many different yardsticks to use when measuring or assessing someone.


Working on your trustworthiness could benefit you greatly, john. Humbling yourself before your wife might turn your marriage around.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jld said:


> I am a _very_ lucky woman. And that article is not verification of anything.
> 
> I do agree with it, though. And I definitely think it could help many men.


This is my point jld.You are looking at this from a woman's point of view but the article is aimed at men.It is unrealistic for you to assume you know what is going on in any mans head especially one who is unhappy and in an unfulfilling relationship when you are in a mutually beneficial relationship with Dug.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> And I'm level 215 in Angry Birds 2, have a world class ELO rating in backgammon, and held the university high score in Pac-Man...
> 
> I'm pretty stable, too, usually calm and generally beyond confident, and while I'm not exactly as trustworthy as Abe Lincoln (the deadline is when?) I get things done.
> 
> I don't see interns swooning for me . There's many different yardsticks to use when measuring or assessing someone.


What has the electric light orchestra got to do with this.lol.
John from the little I know about you,you are getting divorced next year.You are obviously a very intelligent guy and I don't mean your PhD or masters.You have no idea how attractive a guy like you is on the singles scene.Make this promise to yourself and this is advice from a master of the pick up.Have twenty one night stands before you have a second date.You need to get your pipes cleaned and cleaned well.I know this is crude but you need and deserve it.I expect to get slaughtered for this advice but just do it.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jld said:


> Thank you, @Emerging Buddhist! I asked Ellis if he could post it, but I don't think he was able to.
> 
> It would be nice if it were a little bigger, though. I had to click on it to be able to read it.


Jld never tell a man it would be nice if it was a little bigger.lol.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> This is my point jld.You are looking at this from a woman's point of view but the article is aimed at men.It is unrealistic for you to assume you know what is going on in any mans head especially one who is unhappy and in an unfulfilling relationship when you are in a mutually beneficial relationship with Dug.


If he is unhappy because he is either not having sex with his wife, or not having as much as he wants of it, I think it is quite realistic for me to think he could be happier if he applied the advice in that infographic, Andy.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Andy, I'm way too old for mind games. All I want from life is a couple more patents, maybe a blockbuster product, my kids to continue doing exceptionally well, and a large cat or two. Travel, my bicycle, and so on. 

I'm quite content to be a loner. But I have to wonder about my mental health... Last night I was reading a chapter book to my cat... 

At my age, peace of mind is far more important than getting into a relationship or what have you.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

john117 said:


> Andy, I'm way too old for mind games. All I want from life is a couple more patents, maybe a blockbuster product, my kids to continue doing exceptionally well, and a large cat or two. Travel, my bicycle, and so on.
> 
> I'm quite content to be a loner. But I have to wonder about my mental health... Last night I was reading a chapter book to my cat...
> 
> At my age, peace of mind is far more important than getting into a relationship or what have you.


I was told recently that cats are full of misinformation.My dog is full of useful facts like that.
On a serious note the money I spent on my first patent (over half a million dollars)was the best money I ever spent.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

It's now 9.20 pm and I have had no dinner.It was plannned for six pm.My gf and my best friend (the master chefs)are both drunk and I am starving,my girlfriends son is asleep,he had pizza earlier and wouldn't give me any.I have had a cheese sandwich for breakfast and nothing else.Where do I trade in these women.I have been drinking cans of draught Guinness all day(hehehe) but now I'm hungry.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> It's now 9.20 pm and I have had no dinner.It was plannned for six pm.My gf and my best friend (the master chefs)are both drunk and I am starving,my girlfriends son is asleep,he had pizza earlier and wouldn't give me any.I have had a cheese sandwich for breakfast and nothing else.*Where do I trade in these women*.I have been drinking cans of draught Guinness all day(hehehe) but now I'm hungry.


An Alpha would know... (I don't really believe that, it was just fun to say).

Sounds like Thai to me... they deliver where I live.

Whatever you decide to eat... get it delivered Andy.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Well men typically measure an aroused penis.

I guess if you really wanted to measure a long dildo with inch markings. The either a set in graduated diameters, or an inflatible one....

The answer you would get would be every bit as useful as the measurements of penises. 




notmyrealname4 said:


> Well, considering a vagina is soft, kinda squishy and somewhat like a collapsed balloon----I can't see how????
> 
> We're in a weird place between seriousness and humor here. I mean I'm actually wondering how the "resting state" of a vagina could be measured. While I also realize it's kind of a stupid thing to wonder about . . .


----------



## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> Because the people publishing this "informative subject matter"don't care a damn whether it is true or not,they only want the revenue gained from adverts on their site or maybe someone actually subscribes to their publications.


I have taken a few lads out to teach them how to connect with women. I do not charge. I have had them referred my a man who does charge as an additional thing. I have never tried to profit.

That said, there are different outlooks. One is motivated by status and profit, look at me, I scored these women etc. They favour a typically apparently mechanistic approach.

The other side are those who take "Just be yourself" and transform it into useful advice. We are all human, understand that women live in a far more judgemental society than men do. Then understand how to connect. 

It ends up pretty similar.
The former school will argue you should ignore questions because you do not have to answer to them.
The latter will say you should understand what why they are asking.

However, typically, we like each other. Neuroses get in the way. If you are able to shed the neuroses, people will very quickly want to be around you and follow your lead. This also applies to women and is why the alpha/beta crap is so misleading.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

john117 said:


> Andy, I'm way too old for mind games. All I want from life is a couple more patents, maybe a blockbuster product, my kids to continue doing exceptionally well, and a large cat or two. Travel, my bicycle, and so on.
> 
> I'm quite content to be a loner. But I have to wonder about my mental health... Last night I was reading a chapter book to my cat...
> 
> At my age, peace of mind is far more important than getting into a relationship or what have you.


I don't see anything wrong with that. (Apart from the cats that is, but that goes without saying. Not just the chapter book bit.....wanting cats at all is concerning...)

The thing is, relationships happen, and if you just let them happen instead of chasing them, the result is much more satisfying and much less work. But I don't think that works for everyone.


----------



## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Duguesclin said:


> Let's take a need common to many men; sex. It gets fulfilled as a result of the men's mature behavior. It is not the duty of your wife to give you sex. She should have sex because she is inspired by you, not because she is obligated or threatened by you.
> 
> Children are helpless and need to have their needs met. We men are not. We have a lot of power.
> 
> Although this site is totally about money and I would not trust this lady for good advice, the list she put up is good and we should all be inspired by it.


It gets fulfilled as a result of well documented hormone responses. I would start by advising the younger me to pick a partner who has similar level of drive and hope that you can ride out the changes over the years.

Some of the things in the article might help to avoid turn-offs, but in the long term I am not sure they will create desire where it does not exist.

But you seem to have conceded you have a need, which puts you on the beta side of that list. Is that a good thing?

You and JLD appear to have a balance that works for you both, and that's great. But why do you think that everyone can attain that balance? Can you empathise with those who have a different journey? What's wrong with a caring desire to meet each other's needs. Isn't insisting that your own wants a needs take priority (ie if you want sexy with me you need to inspire me, and if not it's your tough luck) a fundamentally selfish outlook?


----------



## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> That could definitely be! I hadn't thought of that, but you're right. I tend to think of ''alpha'' (if I must use a label lol) as my dad or my fiance. They are not threatened by women, they respect women, and are just genuinely masculine.


That's how I am as well. Guys who disrespect women or who are afraid of them, even if they are masking it, wouldn't be alpha in my opinion


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

john117 said:


> They are not bothering me... The article is another one in a series of pop psychology, completely detached from the complexity of real human behavior...


Plus, it's not really an "article" --- It's click bait to, as JLD said, be a "draw for guys who otherwise would not read the article, and are wondering why their wives either do not want to have sex with them, or not very often" then hoping they click through to look into online coaching from susie johnson or buy some garbage ebook they had some other paid author research and conglomerate for them. 

I don't have time to read the full article ~~~ too busy reading joshua pompey, he's so much more Alpha than Susie.


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> Thank you, @Emerging Buddhist! I asked Ellis if he could post it, but I don't think he was able to.
> 
> It would be nice if it were a little bigger, though. I had to click on it to be able to read it.


Size is not everything @jld ...


----------



## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> Ellis, rereading that list, I agree with you that becoming more mature can benefit both men and women.
> 
> But I suspect not too many wives find their husbands turning down sex with them because they perceive the wives to be behaving in an immature way. If my own experience is anything to go by, a husband is pretty much ready to have sex no matter what.
> 
> Otoh, if my husband were to behave the way the immature men on the other list do, I can't imagine we would be having much sex at all, or even still be married to each other. I would not be a bit inspired by that sort of behavior.


Maybe I am an oddball, IDK. I find a woman acting "immature" (putting this in quotes as everyone has their own definition of immature, but if you go by the article then I would say acting selfish, self absorbed, excuses galore, unable to control emotions, etc...) a complete turn off. I wouldn't be surprised if many men in a relationship would feel the same way. I think you may be confusing the crap a guy is willing to put up with to get laid via a ONS or at the start of a relationship vs. the crap he is willing to put up with in a LTR.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Wolf1974 said:


> That's how I am as well. Guys who disrespect women or who are afraid of them, even if they are masking it, wouldn't be alpha in my opinion


Agreed. This goes in line with what I was thinking. Assuming this "article" is to help guys I see a few options:

1) He was masking who he was (i.e. pretending to be an "alpha"), but as the relationship progressed he became his true self ("beta"), wife loses attraction
2) He was an "alpha" at the start but as the relationship progressed, for whatever reasons, some of his personality traits switched to "beta". Could have been due to life experiences (traumatic events, depressions, etc...). Wife loses attraction
3) He was a "beta" from the start of the relationship and remained so during relationship. Wife was content having a sex life with him in the early stages, but as the relationship matures withdraws (blames it on him being "beta").
4) He was "alpha" from the start of the relationship and remained so during relationship. Wife still loses attraction (maybe drive mismatch, bait & switch, etc...)

So, the problem I have with these types of articles is they paint a picture that it is the guys fault, simply discard some of those items on the "beta" list for those on the "alpha" list and your W will be riding you like at a rodeo. As others have mentioned here, it is just a lot more complicated than that. Sometimes it is just as simple as two people growing apart, not being compatible to each other, etc... Sometimes it is a lot more complicated, and something both in the relationship need to work on.


----------



## WoundedTiger (Dec 26, 2016)

Faithful Wife said:


> GusPolinski said:
> 
> 
> > Quick, someone start a penis size thread.
> ...


 I don't think that is necessarily true. Alpha males are fitter, stronger and tend to have higher Testosterone, which all will get it bigger. Since they also tend to be very comfortable in their own skin, they don't let guilt and compulsions hamper their libido or make them feel bad about it.

Can't really say this is a "science" that is well researched though. There is also the Alpha female. Those two letters should stay separate IMHO. An AM with a passive-aggressive beta mate will feel miserably constrained. An alpha female will often deter betas from even approaching her.


----------



## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> I have taken a few lads out to teach them how to connect with women. I do not charge. I have had them referred my a man who does charge as an additional thing. I have never tried to profit.
> 
> That said, there are different outlooks. One is motivated by status and profit, look at me, I scored these women etc. They favour a typically apparently mechanistic approach.
> 
> ...


I just stand at the bar and lick my eyebrows.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Maybe I am an oddball, IDK. I find a woman acting "immature" (putting this in quotes as everyone has their own definition of immature, but if you go by the article then I would say acting selfish, self absorbed, excuses galore, unable to control emotions, etc...) a complete turn off. I wouldn't be surprised if many men in a relationship would feel the same way. I think you may be confusing the crap a guy is willing to put up with to get laid via a ONS or at the start of a relationship vs. the crap he is willing to put up with in a LTR.


If the men are sensitive, that could be true. 

But I think for a lot of men, if the attraction is high and the sex is good and plentiful, they will overlook a lot of the rest. Jmo.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

jld said:


> If the men are sensitive, that could be true.
> 
> But I think for a lot of men, if the attraction is high and the sex is good and plentiful, they will overlook a lot of the rest. Jmo.


LOL at implying a guy must be sensitive if he finds a woman exhibiting mature behavior attractive ... you know a lot less about men than you think


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> It gets fulfilled as a result of well documented hormone responses. I would start by advising the younger me to pick a partner who has similar level of drive and hope that you can ride out the changes over the years.
> 
> Some of the things in the article might help to avoid turn-offs, but in the long term I am not sure they will create desire where it does not exist.
> 
> ...


I think it is a *realistic* outlook. 

No one said life is fair, Wazza. And we all know it is not equal, at least not on its face.

I do not think all men can mature, btw. It seems some cannot even read the article.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> you know a lot less about men than you think


I am sure that is true, especially in regard to sensitive men.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

jld said:


> If the men are sensitive, that could be true.
> 
> But I think for a lot of men, if the attraction is high and the sex is good and plentiful, they will overlook a lot of the rest. Jmo.


A lot of men will overlook immature behaviour if the sex is good and plentiful.But only for a while,it soon becomes annoying and then it's time to move on,at least imo.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> A lot of men will overlook immature behaviour if the sex is good and plentiful.But only for a while,it soon becomes annoying and then it's time to move on,at least imo.


It could be a matter of degree, Andy. 

I do think that water seeks its own level. Long term couples probably have similar maturity levels.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Andy1001 said:


> A lot of men will overlook immature behaviour if the sex is good and plentiful.But only for a while,it soon becomes annoying and then it's time to move on,at least imo.


There is a reason why the saying "No matter how hot she is, someone eventuality got tired of her $hit" exists...

Unfortunately in jlds fantasy land there are very simple rules. If you are a guy and want to maintain a female's sexual attraction, you need to follow a detailed list of how exactly you need to behave, and then hopefully she will respond. If you are a female, you can behave as you please, he will put up with it indefinitely as long as you are willing to spread your legs enough.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> There is a reason why the saying "No matter how hot she is, someone eventuality got tired of her $hit" exists...
> 
> Unfortunately in jlds fantasy land there are very simple rules. If you are a guy and want to maintain a female's sexual attraction, you need to follow a detailed list of how exactly you need to behave, and then hopefully she will respond. If you are a female, you can behave as you please, he will put up with it indefinitely as long as you are willing to spread your legs enough.


Not sure about the "indefinitely" part.


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Wazza said:


> (Apart from the cats that is, but that goes without saying. Not just the chapter book bit.....wanting cats at all is concerning...)


LOL.

Agree, 100 %.


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## KJ_Simmons (Jan 12, 2016)

I think the alpha/beta topic draws alot of reactions because people automatically defer to the extreme examples (the alpha abuser and the beta ****).

Far from it. For those approaching it the right way, it's really a journey of self-improvement to being the best man you can be. Encouraged reading include NMMNG and MMSLP, and getting into shape. Those very things are frequently recommended on here by many members to guys losing their woman's attraction. I think any relationship and woman could benefit from such a journey!


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I am sure that is true, especially in regard to sensitive men.


JLD, please give us rough definition of what a sensitive man is to you. I have a feeling that what you're terming a sensitive man doesn't jive with what male culture often hears when someone talks about a sensitive man. For many, many men, the term 'sensitive' is nearly an insult, being conflated with 'overly-sensitive' aka cry-baby.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> JLD, please give us rough definition of what a sensitive man is to you. I have a feeling that what you're terming a sensitive man doesn't jive with what male culture often hears when someone talks about a sensitive man. For many, many men, the term 'sensitive' is nearly an insult, being conflated with 'overly-sensitive' aka cry-baby.


Men who are easily hurt, who often look to women to soothe and comfort them, and get resentful if they don't.

Another definition, though, could be men who are sensitive to the feelings of others, but do not take offense easily themselves. 

We are getting afield of the subject of the thread, though. The OP suggested it as a way for men in sexless or undersexed marriages to improve their situations. Yet some men in those very situations will not read the article, or become very defensive about the advice given.

Well, suit yourselves. The OP was just trying to help.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

jld said:


> I do think that water seeks its own level. Long term couples probably have similar maturity levels.


My wife won't be happy to hear that... >


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WoundedTiger said:


> I don't think that is necessarily true. Alpha males are fitter, stronger and tend to have higher Testosterone, which all will get it bigger. Since they also tend to be very comfortable in their own skin, they don't let guilt and compulsions hamper their libido or make them feel bad about it.
> 
> Can't really say this is a "science" that is well researched though. There is also the Alpha female. Those two letters should stay separate IMHO. An AM with a passive-aggressive beta mate will feel miserably constrained. An alpha female will often deter betas from even approaching her.


Ok. Just personal observation here but I have known several beta type men who are sporting monsters in the penis department and several alpha types that were average or below.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

jld said:


> If the men are sensitive, that could be true.
> 
> But I think for a lot of men, if the attraction is high and the sex is good and plentiful, they will overlook a lot of the rest. Jmo.


The word sensitive is horrribly abused isn't it? It should mean very aware of the feelings, emotions and motivations of others - which would require putting your own neuroses aside. Instead, it has come to mean being obsessed with your own feelings.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Sensitive.New man.In touch with his inner self.In touch with his feminine side.Finding himself.
These descriptions of men make me cringe.It is new wave bs spouted by feminists who won't be happy until they have their men's balls in their designer handbags.
Who decided that men would be better off by listening to this rubbish?
A woman of course.
Why are most of these relationship experts women and why is it always up to the man to change.
There was an old saying that a women's place was in the home.It should be updated to a mans place is in the wrong.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I didn't take the time to read the article ...though it doesn't sound too bad...I'd probably argue that Beta is looked upon wrong though....

That's the initial problem with all of these threads & opinions...as all of us have our own perception or interpretation of what these terms mean or look like, from articles we've read on the net, and it infiltrating our brains.... most see Beta as puzzy whipped weak men.. but it also can mean this:



> The *Beta Traits* are those associated with the strengths of being a nice guy / “family man”. Kindness, being a good listener, the ability to help with the children, dependability, thoughtfulness, compassion and patience. These all create a sense of comfort and safety for the woman, and relax her because she feels that if she became pregnant, the Beta Trait male isn’t going to abandon her and the baby.
> 
> *Beta *= comfort building = Oxytocin / Vasopressin = Pair Bond = Calm Enjoyment"


IF a man didn't have these threats.. I would want seriously NOTHING to do with him.. these traits mean a great deal to me..

I did a thread on this years ago.. just to show that there are other interpretations ...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ns-beta-male-good-all-p-whipped-pathetic.html


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> LOL.
> 
> Agree, 100 %.


There are cats, and there are cats...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Mr The Other said:


> *The word sensitive is horribly abused isn't it? * It should mean very aware of the feelings, emotions and motivations of others - which would require putting your own neuroses aside. Instead, it has come to mean being obsessed with your own feelings.


Yes it has....I tried to address this too- another old thread : http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...our-thoughts-sensitive-men-good-bad-ugly.html

I LIKE NICE PEOPLE.. this word has been slaughtered too (It doesn't always mean "Nice guy- di** hiding this true feelings)...I LIKE SENSITIVE MEN... this doesn't have to mean "*overly sensitive*" cry baby man .... I married a sensitive man.. but he's not so sensitive that I can't fight with him, tell him exactly what for...he's never been overly sensitive...if he was, he wouldn't have been able to put up with me - at times.... I've never had to walk on egg shells .... so No.. it's not a bad thing at all.. I want sensitivity in my romance, with a man. 

This was one of my posts on that thread...



> Fozzy said:
> 
> 
> > *The opposite of sensitive is insensitive. And I've never heard of a person being insensitive talked about in a positive light.*
> ...


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> Sensitive.New man.In touch with his inner self.In touch with his feminine side.Finding himself.
> These descriptions of men make me cringe.It is new wave bs spouted by feminists who won't be happy until they have their men's balls in their designer handbags.
> Who decided that men would be better off by listening to this rubbish?
> A woman of course.
> ...


None of that stuff is bad.
- _Sensitive_. To be senstive you have to be able to be completely calm and able to master your feelings. Of course, people use it to mean that thinking their own feelings are most important and make a virtue out of navel gazing.
- _New man_. Meaningless.
- _In touch with his inner self_. If it means in touch with your sense of will as well as aware of what is going on in your mind, it is great. Unfortunately, navel gazers abuse the term.
- _In touch with his feminine side_. Almost meaningless, but if it means at ease with yourself, it seems good.
- _Finding himself_. As for the two above.

Such a man would be calm in a crisis and able to act with assurance.

Edit to add (After SA liked): I agree with a point in your post. There are many feminists who just live to blame men, who feel men should have all the responsibility and therefore all the blame. These are the ones who will believe that being female is enough and yet believe it deserves great praise. They are particularly strong in the anglo-saxon cultures and are idiots.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> Yes it has....I tried to address this too- another old thread : http://talkaboutmarriage.com/ladies...our-thoughts-sensitive-men-good-bad-ugly.html
> 
> I LIKE NICE PEOPLE.. this word has been slaughtered too (It doesn't always mean "Nice guy- di** hiding this true feelings)...I LIKE SENSITIVE MEN... this doesn't have to mean "*overly sensitive*" cry baby man .... I married a sensitive man.. but he's not so sensitive that I can't fight with him, tell him exactly what for...he's never been overly sensitive...if he was, he wouldn't have been able to put up with me - at times.... I've never had to walk on egg shells .... so No.. it's not a bad thing at all.. I want sensitivity in my romance, with a man.
> 
> This was one of my posts on that thread...


Well said. 

I know a disabled lady. She is very brave and occasionally she is upset and wants to give up. I am sensitive - I tell her to stop being a whine-bag. I am aware that is what she needs most of the time, regardless of how I feel. That is being sensitive.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Mr The Other said:


> Well said.
> 
> I know a disabled lady. She is very brave and occasionally she is upset and wants to give up. I am sensitive - I tell her to stop being a whine-bag. I am aware that is what she needs most of the time, regardless of how I feel. That is being sensitive.


I wholly agree with this post on Quora : What is the best thing about being sensitive? 



> The best thing about being sensitive is, that you develop a sense of understanding towards people. You realize how, even a few words said in jest, a little argument here and there can really affect people as it tends to affect you. Your tolerance level tends to rise, as you take time to understand different perspectives.
> 
> It makes you more helpful and approachable but at the same time it becomes difficult to say NO to people. Rarely will you betray anyone in anyway, as you know how hard it is to deal with it. Your emotional quotient will be good but dealing with setbacks, like a heartbreak will take quite some time.
> 
> ...


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Wolf1974 said:


> That's how I am as well. Guys who disrespect women or who are afraid of them, even if they are masking it, wouldn't be alpha in my opinion


The problem comes in if women are raised by a bad example of a male role model, or maybe no father is in their childhood at all, so that can cause a lot of confusion in their minds as to what alpha should be. I think that if a guy is confident and has self respect, that confidence comes across as very alpha, even if he doesn't look alpha. If a guy is insecure, he will put down women, and it seems that some men think this is how you keep a woman attracted to you. ''Women like bad guys,'' it's not that we like bad guys, but sometimes, if a woman has low self esteem or no self respect, she will end up dating nothing but bad guys. I've learned that a guy can look hot and have confidence, but be a humble and good person. My fiance is like this, so I know they exist. lol 

In reading threads on here by women who married bad guys, more often than not, the woman posting those threads has no self esteem or self respect, so she stays with a bad guy/cheater type and maybe she thinks this is what it means to be alpha. Usually guys who are not treating their wives well, aren't alpha, they're just a-holes. lol But, if you don't feel good about yourself as a woman, then you'll pick those types of men, thinking that the problem is you...if only I could please him more, he wouldn't want to chase after other women, etc.

If you feel good about yourself, you'll not be attracted to toxic players...and a toxic player is NOT alpha.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> The problem comes in if women are raised by a bad example of a male role model, or maybe no father is in their childhood at all, so that can cause a lot of confusion in their minds as to what alpha should be. I think that if a guy is confident and has self respect, that confidence comes across as very alpha, even if he doesn't look alpha. If a guy is insecure, he will put down women, and it seems that some men think this is how you keep a woman attracted to you. ''Women like bad guys,'' it's not that we like bad guys, but sometimes, if a woman has low self esteem or no self respect, she will end up dating nothing but bad guys. I've learned that a guy can look hot and have confidence, but be a humble and good person. My fiance is like this, so I know they exist. lol
> 
> In reading threads on here by women who married bad guys, more often than not, the woman posting those threads has no self esteem or self respect, so she stays with a bad guy/cheater type and maybe she thinks this is what it means to be alpha. Usually guys who are not treating their wives well, aren't alpha, they're just a-holes. lol But, if you don't feel good about yourself as a woman, then you'll pick those types of men, thinking that the problem is you...if only I could please him more, he wouldn't want to chase after other women, etc.
> 
> If you feel good about yourself, you'll not be attracted to toxic players...and a toxic player is NOT alpha.


There is a big difference between the useful, strong male and the big mouthed, touchy, loud mouth. Many cannot tell the difference.

I am going to write something a little contrary, I encountered the Pick-up artist scene/player and I was actually impressed. I first came across it when I saw a lady telling off a man, I approached, found out from her what he had said - a crude compliment that was uncomfortable...told him to stop it...then quickly smiled and asked her excitedly, - "ooh, is he right? Come on, let's see!!" and soon the two of us were touching and giggling.

Most men in his situation would have been furious, instead he found me later in the evening and asked me how he went wrong, how it was OK when I did it. He actually listened. That was how I became an amateur teacher to a few lads.

The thing is, there were two schools that had a great deal in common. Learn how to communicate and overcome your neuroses, then you will be more aware of who they are then
- *The stereotypical school* - zero in on their insecurities, play on them and magnify them. Once they are desperate for reassurance, give them almost enough. _You can then use them to sate your insecurities._ - *******s
- *The enlightened school* - make a real human connection. Learn their neuroses and you can expose them as nonsense. You soon see they are a valuable person with their own outlook. You can then see what they need in their lives rather than deciding what they should need. _You can do this by having got over your insecurities._ decent men

The alternative for many men would be what we see from man who call themselves red-pillers. Having decided how women should be, decide they are horrible for not being like that. As they are not like you think they are and you cannot accept reality, you get angry, and talk about the red pill despite having clearly missed the concept.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I wholly agree with this post on Quora : What is the best thing about being sensitive?


I actually disagree with part of this answer. If you are more focused on the feelings of others and understand the nature of your emotions, it should be easier to get over heart-break.


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> There is a big difference between the useful, strong male and the big mouthed, touchy, loud mouth. Many cannot tell the difference.
> 
> I am going to write something a little contrary, I encountered the Pick-up artist scene/player and I was actually impressed. I first came across it when I saw a lady telling off a man, I approached, found out from her what he had said - a crude compliment that was uncomfortable...told him to stop it...then quickly smiled and asked her excitedly, - "ooh, is he right? Come on, let's see!!" and soon the two of us were touching and giggling.
> 
> ...


This is interesting. So, are you a player? lol JK! 

The pick up artist ''game'' does work sometimes, depending ...lol I've fallen for it when I wasn't getting along with my dad. See, to me, there has to be either a naive woman or a woman suffering from low self respect usually due to something else, in order for the player's game to ''work''. But, my fiance for example, he is very confident, but some might look at him and think 'player.' He's not a player, maybe that is the problem too? That we have confused the definition of strong and confident to also mean ''player?'' :scratchhead: lol


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

jld said:


> I think it is a *realistic* outlook.
> 
> No one said life is fair, Wazza. And we all know it is not equal, at least not on its face.
> 
> I do not think all men can mature, btw. It seems some cannot even read the article.


Realistically everyone has a bit of selfishness. A relationship comes out of balance. Something that works for both sides.


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## toblerone (Oct 18, 2016)

The thing about PUA and women is that it can work but not necessarily why the PUA thinks it does. Sometimes chicks just wanna get laid too, and it really doesn't have a darn thing to do with how much you've pea****ed or negged her or whatever.

It's like bragging about striking out the side in the last inning of a school baseball game when really the umpire just wanted to go home. You could have thrown anything and won.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> This is interesting. So, are you a player? lol JK!
> 
> The pick up artist ''game'' does work sometimes, depending ...lol I've fallen for it when I wasn't getting along with my dad. See, to me, there has to be either a naive woman or a woman suffering from low self respect usually due to something else, in order for the player's game to ''work''. But, my fiance for example, he is very confident, but some might look at him and think 'player.' He's not a player, maybe that is the problem too? That we have confused the definition of strong and confident to also mean ''player?'' :scratchhead: lol


The lessons, such as they are:
*- Women live in a different social world. *
Men are accepted as morally grey. If women are not snow-white, they are condemned as bad. So, an overweight man can laugh at his belly, but can do something about it as a physiological issue. Women often see it as a moral issue, so dieting is often more purgatory. A man can cheat, but still be decent - a woman cannot - so if a single man goes with a woman he does not know to be in a relationship he might get the blame rather than utterly condemning the woman. The point is, attitudes women have that seem irrational and unfair are rational when looked at differently.

That we live in a different world reveals that we are actually the same, but with different outlooks driven by circumstance

*- Three points to conversation (listening)*
The three aspects are the words, emotion and motivation. 
Words: As a gross generalization men are great at this and consider listening to be paying attention to what is said. Women put less emphasis on this.
Emotion: Is this being said from anger, frustration, joy, hope? Listening to this helps you engage with what is really being said. 
Motivation: Why are they saying this? What does what they say tell me about what drives them.

So, a typical boring conversation might go:
Her: I am going to Sweden in the summer.
Him: That is interesting, I have a friend who lives in Sweden.
This is how men are taught to speak generally and it is terrible. But, he found something in common. But it is deathly dull. And besides, the first line is not in itself interesting.

Instead, 
Her: I am going to Sweden in the summer.
Is she excited, or bored. This tell you whether she is adventurous, whether she goes abroad often. Any why Sweden, is it family (she would have to value Sweden highly to travel all that way), is it a job (which would suggest she is fairly successful and career driven), is it holiday (which suggests she is likely to go off the beaten path and have progressive politics). You are on the verge of finding out a great deal about her. It is far more interesting that you have a friend in Sweden. You are also focusing on her rather than trying to address your neurotic nature by desperately looking to connect and justify yourself.

*- Three points to conversation (speaking)*
Emotion and motivation are the most important things. Be open, honest and reveal yourself. We practise this with a game. Mention a random object and speak a few lines about it. In the beginning people are terrible. e.g.:
Bread 
A lad's answer: "Bread is nice. I eat it most days, there are lots of different types and my favourite is sourough, There is a bakery near me and they have this really dark, heavy bread as it is a German bakery, but I do not like it much. What is your favourite bread?" - dull, asked a question, which he was not interested in learning the answer to.
Bring in emotion and openness
"When I first came to America, I really struggled to feel at home and I did not like the bread. Then I found sourdough and I had never had it in Europe, but I really liked it and even now sourdough is my favourite and brings me back to when I first made the USA home and overcame that feeling of being lost" No question, but shared something about emotions.

With this, something good happens. You will ignore questions not because you do not care, but you start to see what is driving them to ask that question and you address that directly.

The third one is honesty. I would speak to women, tell them my friend is shy and I am bringing them over to speak with him. I am doing this because I know how hard it is. I have not had the women not come over, because I was open, honest and vulnerable.

*Learn the difference between you and your neuroses*
The excuses you make not to act are like an imaginary friend you have in your head, who hates you. When you feel you have to do the right thing or you are a terrible person, that is neurotic. When you have to say the right thing, that is neurotic. When you are concerned with what they think of you, it is neurotic and prevents you making a connection. This advice is all generally summed up by most people as "be yourself", but what useless advice that is.

The thing is, you make connections and most will not be interested in manipulating women if they have learned to make a genuine emotional connection and put aside the imaginary friend who hates them. 

Whether you call this a player is up to you! It will seem that way to some. But I think it teaches people to genuinely relate to each other. Occasionally, my vanity is fed by it, which it should not be.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> None of that stuff is bad.
> - _Sensitive_. To be senstive you have to be able to be completely calm and able to master your feelings. Of course, people use it to mean that thinking their own feelings are most important and make a virtue out of navel gazing.
> - _New man_. Meaningless.
> - _In touch with his inner self_. If it means in touch with your sense of will as well as aware of what is going on in your mind, it is great. Unfortunately, navel gazers abuse the term.
> ...


It is the sense of entitlement that some women exude that really gets on my nerves. I've seen it first hand and the first place I seen it was in the UK.Guys at work would go to so much trouble when it was their wives birthday,flowers,expensive gift,meal in an expensive restaurant and maybe even a weekend away.I would ask them what they got for their own birthday and usually it was a takeaway and a bottle of wine.Some of these guys actually seemed to be afraid of upsetting their wives.
Even now on tv all the commercials seem to make men out to be complete idiots and their wives are so smart in comparison.If the sexes were reversed there would be uproar.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

The old Alpha-Beta nonsense again.

Sociologically, Alpha versus Beta (and Gamma and all the other Greek letters), is a study of human behavior (both genders) as compared with other primates. Primate packs are built in caste systems. The more "alpha" a male behaves, the greater number of females he gets, and his also gets first pick - usually - some females don't find the alpha appealing anyway. This comes mainly from the study of Gorilla behavior.

Note, however, that the beta gorilla is not a loser. He still gets fed, gets girls and so only - his method of achievement depends more on being a team player than it is with the alpha.

And, based on a National Geographic extended documentary on the topic, it works just as well in humans. 

HOWEVER, we get completely misled by incorrect assumptions and blogging by those who ought to know better.

When you try to find articles about "beta" males and why they're failures, the behavior described is not beta at all - it's a complete lack of ethics, morals and psychological well-being. 'Beta' males are said to communicate in a passive/aggressive manner, complain, blame others...and this is not "healthy" behavior from any adult at any level in the pack, irrespective of gender.

The linked article claims:



> The term alpha (mature) male applies to:
> 
> Men who answer the call to grow mentally and emotionally
> Men who take responsibility for their own mind and emotions
> ...


At no point did the author explain what "mature masculine power" means, so I feel free to neglect it. And if I do - that list is an exceptionally good description of the expected behavior of mature adults of both genders. 

Carol Ryff, in the 1950s, developed the Ryff Scale of Psychological Well-Being. She names six factors and describes "healthy" and "undeveloped" examples of each. I posit that anybody who comes in 4/6 on the Ryff scale will be described by the so-called alpha male list.

A beta male can do everything on that list - and still be beta. The chief difference is whether a person (of either gender) is compelled to be the acknowledged leader or whether they are willing to work successfully as a leader, follower or equal collaborator. 

This ain't alpha versus beta, it's responsible adult versus not.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

toblerone said:


> The thing about PUA and women is that it can work but not necessarily why the PUA thinks it does. Sometimes chicks just wanna get laid too, and it really doesn't have a darn thing to do with how much you've pea****ed or negged her or whatever.
> 
> It's like bragging about striking out the side in the last inning of a school baseball game when really the umpire just wanted to go home. You could have thrown anything and won.


There is a problem when lads try to relate by rules and it dehumanizes women. I know a lad who was really keen on the "3 second rule", which was do not state at a girl for more than three seconds without approaching and saying something. I pointed out to him that he knows that staring is bad already and did not need a rule.

He also did not buy a round of drinks when it would have been appropriate. He had heard it was a beta thing to do. However, that is if you go up and try and pay a girl for her company with a drink, that is pathetic. As there were four of us at a table, it would have should his genuine generous nature.

Negging is only suitable when it feels natural. The so-called PUA do it to play on insecurities which I think is horrible. It can sound similar, but you can give praise that acknowledges the effort and motivation she had rather than just looking at her as an object. 

Noting "you are beautiful" is actually rather impersonal. Objects are beautiful, noting that she spent time matching things, or that she went to a particular effort might be seen as a neg for acknowledging she does not just spring out of bed immaculate - but it is more honest and acknowledges her effort and motivation. Even noting that someone has learned something out of insecurity is not bad thing, if you note how driven they are and how well they have done it, when they had nothing to be insecure about really. 

Of course, if it is not sincere - then shut up.


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## wild jade (Jun 21, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> <snip>
> Any why Sweden, is it family (she would have to value Sweden highly to travel all that way), is it a job (which would suggest she is fairly successful and career driven), is it holiday (which suggests she is likely to go off the beaten path and have progressive politics). You are on the verge of finding out a great deal about her. It is far more interesting that you have a friend in Sweden. You are also focusing on her rather than trying to address your neurotic nature by desperately looking to connect and justify yourself.
> </snip>
> 
> ...



Yep, be interested in her and interesting yourself. And amazingly enough, you just might make a connection.

(Works on men too, btw. Just as well).


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> The lessons, such as they are:
> *- Women live in a different social world. *
> Men are accepted as morally grey. If women are not snow-white, they are condemned as bad. So, an overweight man can laugh at his belly, but can do something about it as a physiological issue. Women often see it as a moral issue, so dieting is often more purgatory. A man can cheat, but still be decent - a woman cannot - so if a single man goes with a woman he does not know to be in a relationship he might get the blame rather than utterly condemning the woman. The point is, attitudes women have that seem irrational and unfair are rational when looked at differently.
> 
> ...


This is all interesting but men have feelings too, and want to have emotional connections. Most of the guys I've dated in my life, including my fiance now, all wanted relationships with me. They wanted sex, but I'm not one to just have sex without a relationship, so maybe they were going through the motions to get sex? That could be, but most of them seemed to actually care about me, and want love. 

The PUA is usually insecure, and tends to sleep with women more as a way to prove his worth to himself. That's the sad thing. But, many guys want to fall in love, and experience a relationship. It's unfortunate that so many messages that men get are how to get a woman in bed, but not how to handle a relationship. Women are taught more about relationships, than how to get men in bed. lol It's no wonder everyone is confused.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> It is the sense of entitlement that some women exude that really gets on my nerves. I've seen it first hand and the first place I seen it was in the UK.Guys at work would go to so much trouble when it was their wives birthday,flowers,expensive gift,meal in an expensive restaurant and maybe even a weekend away.I would ask them what they got for their own birthday and usually it was a takeaway and a bottle of wine.Some of these guys actually seemed to be afraid of upsetting their wives.
> Even now on tv all the commercials seem to make men out to be complete idiots and their wives are so smart in comparison.If the sexes were reversed there would be uproar.


Indeed. I am from the UK and when I moved abroad, women I was in relationships would find my low expectations very strange and occasionally a little insulting. I remember being in Denmark and my then girlfriend not only getting me a present, but also something I wanted. I actually do not blame feminism for this, but a lack of feminism. There is still an attitude in the UK, that most women support, that we have to make allowances for women and have low expectations. My shock going to Scandinavia was that more feminism had meant that there was higher expectations of women and the women had higher expectations of themselves. 

It might seem an odd example, but I remember when the building my condo is in had a building project in the backyard. It started with a few blokes and then a group of women joined us and I groans internally. I assumed their contribution would be to complain, talk about how they would do it all much quicker they would be if they were to actually help and maybe to "organise". Instead, they rolled up their sleeves and helped, lifting lighter stuff not because they were women but because they happened not to be as strong as individuals. It really opened my eyes to what is possible. 

A Belgian lady I went out with was very good at prodding me. At Easter, I bought her an chocolate egg but did not expect one myself. She pointed out that it was the "women and children" mantra, and she was right. Unfortunately, in the UK, that we would be wrong to have anything but the lowest possible expectations of women is presented as feminism when it is a very warped version at best.



wild jade said:


> Yep, be interested in her and interesting yourself. And amazingly enough, you just might make a connection.
> 
> (Works on men too, btw. Just as well).


Indeed! It works on people! But we learn rules that get in the way and neurotic fears stop us from connecting.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> This is all interesting but men have feelings too, and want to have emotional connections. Most of the guys I've dated in my life, including my fiance now, all wanted relationships with me. They wanted sex, but I'm not one to just have sex without a relationship, so maybe they were going through the motions to get sex? That could be, but most of them seemed to actually care about me, and want love.
> 
> The PUA is usually insecure, and tends to sleep with women more as a way to prove his worth to himself. That's the sad thing. But, many guys want to fall in love, and experience a relationship. It's unfortunate that so many messages that men get are how to get a woman in bed, but not how to handle a relationship. Women are taught more about relationships, than how to get men in bed. lol It's no wonder everyone is confused.


I completely agree.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

*Deidre* said:


> *This is all interesting but men have feelings too, and want to have emotional connections. Most of the guys I've dated in my life, including my fiance now, all wanted relationships with me. They wanted sex, but I'm not one to just have sex without a relationship, so maybe they were going through the motions to get sex? That could be, but most of them seemed to actually care about me, and want love. *
> 
> The PUA is usually insecure, and tends to sleep with women more as a way to prove his worth to himself. That's the sad thing. But, many guys want to fall in love, and experience a relationship. It's unfortunate that so many messages that men get are how to get a woman in bed, but not how to handle a relationship. Women are taught more about relationships, than how to get men in bed. lol It's no wonder everyone is confused.


Great point some gloss over here that men also are seeking connection but it might come in a different form than what a woman does. For me and many men sex = emotional connection hence the push for it. Some confusion can come from yes sex can be just about sex but can also be a deep bonding experience


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

When it comes to pick up artists there is one and only one rule.
Those who can.Do.
Those who can't.Talk about it.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Andy1001 said:


> When it comes to pick up artists there is one and only one rule.
> Those who can.Do.
> Those who can't.Talk about it.


I only had a year of being familiar with a few of them, but it seemed to be a mix. One lad who charged money I met once before he started sending people to me. He genuinely believed in making connections and could do it at the drop of a hat. He did publicity, but would earn money taking students live and showing them. 

There was another lad I know who did a podcast on the topic, with interviews and theory. However, he was the one who introduced me to all this when I befriended the lady who was telling him off. Clearly, he was one who was just talk - despite genuine interest.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Wolf1974 said:


> Some confusion can come from yes sex can be just about sex but can also be a deep bonding experience


How does a woman know the difference?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

DustyDog said:


> *A beta male can do everything on that list - and still be beta. The chief difference is whether a person (of either gender) is compelled to be the acknowledged leader or whether they are willing to work successfully as a leader, follower or equal collaborator.
> 
> This ain't alpha versus beta, it's responsible adult versus not.*


 This is how I look at it also... not everyone is a Leader or a Boss...some are quite content working under someone and/or being a team player... No matter their position or rank... they still may be the best they can be , for who they are, ticking every box on that list...



Vega said:


> How does a woman know the difference?


One's history of relationships should give a pretty good indication...taking time to get to know someone emotionally before taking your clothes off... if he has little to no patience here.. shows obvious irritation, it speaks highly he has little care or understanding for the woman's comfort level, if she is one who deeply cares about commitment, exclusiveness, showing he is a gentleman, and wants to pursue a relationship, build something with her..

A man has a tremendous opportunity to allow a woman to thrive before him, if he shows great character here...unfortunate for such women... there just aren't too many men willing to wait today.. since sex is so very abundant and casual. So these ladies will have a very hard time.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I didn't take the time to read the article ...though it doesn't sound too bad...I'd probably argue that Beta is looked upon wrong though....
> 
> That's the initial problem with all of these threads & opinions...as all of us have our own perception or interpretation of what these terms mean or look like, from articles we've read on the net, and it infiltrating our brains.... most see Beta as puzzy whipped weak men.. but it also can mean this:
> 
> ...


Those examples of beta traits are offensive, I would like to go shoot the "alpha" who wrote them with my longbow. Just kidding I could never do something like that, I don't own a longbow. >


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

*Deidre* said:


> The problem comes in if women are raised by a bad example of a male role model, or maybe no father is in their childhood at all, so that can cause a lot of confusion in their minds as to what alpha should be. I think that if a guy is confident and has self respect, that confidence comes across as very alpha, even if he doesn't look alpha. If a guy is insecure, he will put down women, and it seems that some men think this is how you keep a woman attracted to you. ''Women like bad guys,'' it's not that we like bad guys, but sometimes, if a woman has low self esteem or no self respect, she will end up dating nothing but bad guys. I've learned that a guy can look hot and have confidence, but be a humble and good person. My fiance is like this, so I know they exist. lol
> 
> In reading threads on here by women who married bad guys, more often than not, the woman posting those threads has no self esteem or self respect, so she stays with a bad guy/cheater type and maybe she thinks this is what it means to be alpha. Usually guys who are not treating their wives well, aren't alpha, they're just a-holes. lol But, if you don't feel good about yourself as a woman, then you'll pick those types of men, thinking that the problem is you...if only I could please him more, he wouldn't want to chase after other women, etc.
> 
> If you feel good about yourself, you'll not be attracted to toxic players...and a toxic player is NOT alpha.


This post is so dead on. Also lots of men who are subservient also didn't have fathers in there childhood so for whatever reason they don't know how to be strong and assertive. I believe this also contributes to lots of men on here who do the exact same thing stay with bad women because they also have low self esteem. I actually think it is the very same trait just the male version of it. I also think it stems from lack of a male role model at a young age.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> There is a big difference between the useful, strong male and the big mouthed, touchy, loud mouth. Many cannot tell the difference.
> 
> I am going to write something a little contrary, I encountered the Pick-up artist scene/player and I was actually impressed. I first came across it when I saw a lady telling off a man, I approached, found out from her what he had said - a crude compliment that was uncomfortable...told him to stop it...then quickly smiled and asked her excitedly, - "ooh, is he right? Come on, let's see!!" and soon the two of us were touching and giggling.
> 
> ...


The key is just learn to make good conversation, and do it for conversations sake, if something sparks great if not then just enjoy learning form someone else. Even then if you want to get laid as seems the end goal with lots of people just let on that that is your end goal at some point. That works too if you meet someone who feels the same way. Then there doesn't need to be a system or game or any of that. In today's day and age there are just as many woman who want to get laid as men. Learn to talk, and flirt a little and there will be women out there who are all about that, if that is what you want. 

The thing about red-pill that always got me is the end-game is all about getting women to have sex with you, you measure yourself by how many women you have sex with. Seems like a dead end philosophy. I really don't think that is what most men want in the long run. Most men want companionship, most women out there also wanting that too, but Red Pill tells these guys that there are none, and then steers them to the most vapid of all women. Does the game work on them, yes but only because they are vain, shallow and ultimately susceptible to manipulation, because of their lack of foundation in character. Of course men who are only dating women like this are going to end up jaded. You have to have much more then game to end up with a woman of quality you have to have sincerity which is the opposite of what Red Pill teaches. Red Pill is like the Scientology of dating.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Vega said:


> How does a woman know the difference?


Well if you don't jump into bed before knowing the guy and build a solid relationship built on trust I would think you would know

I imagine their are signs that indicate. For me when I'm in love and have sex I am all kinds of affectionate afterward because I feel connected . If I didn't care I would just leave or go to sleep.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> Well if you don't jump into bed before knowing the guy and build a solid relationship built on trust I would think you would know


K. But it's been established here on TAM that third date seems to be the ruler. If you aren't having sex by the third date you are clearly using the guy for free Ponderosa. And if you had sex before the third date with the last guy you dated or any guy ever, you have to have it on the second date for this guy or clearly you "aren't that into him" and you are "cheating him."

So ...

How do you wait and build a solid relationship with someone within the three date time frame?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> K. But it's been established here on TAM that third date seems to be the ruler. If you aren't having sex by the third date you are clearly using the guy for free Ponderosa. And if you had sex before the third date with the last guy you dated or any guy ever, you have to have it on the second date for this guy or clearly you "aren't that into him" and you are "cheating him."
> 
> So ...
> 
> How do you wait and build a solid relationship with someone within the three date time frame?


If you are not comfortable with three dates, take your time.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

sokillme said:


> The key is just learn to make good conversation, and do it for conversations sake, if something sparks great if not then just enjoy learning form someone else. Even then if you want to get laid as seems the end goal with lots of people just let on that that is your end goal at some point. That works too if you meet someone who feels the same way. Then there doesn't need to be a system or game or any of that. In today's day and age there are just as many woman who want to get laid as men. Learn to talk, and flirt a little and there will be women out there who are all about that, if that is what you want.
> 
> The thing about red-pill that always got me is the end-game is all about getting women to have sex with you, you measure yourself by how many women you have sex with. Seems like a dead end philosophy. I really don't think that is what most men want in the long run. Most men want companionship, most women out there also wanting that too, but Red Pill tells these guys that there are none, and then steers them to the most vapid of all women. Does the game work on them, yes but only because they are vain, shallow and ultimately susceptible to manipulation, because of their lack of foundation in character. Of course men who are only dating women like this are going to end up jaded. You have to have much more then game to end up with a woman of quality you have to have sincerity which is the opposite of what Red Pill teaches. Red Pill is like the Scientology of dating.


Men who talk about the Red Pill are typical bitter and angry: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...pillers-have-not-actually-taken-red-pill.html
The red pill concept would cheer them up, but they have not taken the look at life that they claim. They choose bitterness and to prey on the vulnerable.

I agree with "The key is just learn to make good conversation", but that is a bit like a basketball coach telling students "Be taller and better at basketball". 

I give the example earlier, if a women (or man, it is the art of engaging conversation really) says "I am going to Sweden this summer", standard advice says that "I would love to go to Sweden some day", "I have a friend in Sweden" or "I visited Sweden once" are all good things to say. But those statements are all unengaging as they come from wanting to justify yourself rather than listen and open up.

There should not be a system or game. Humanity and people have got on well and engaged for millenia since paleolithic times. Yet, we see people failing to engage or understand each other constantly. Failing to see the humanity in each other. The strict rules are for people who are very socially ignorant, but learning to be yourself is not as straight forward as it should be. Most middle-aged men believe they have sussed it all out, but once they are single they go on a very lonely dating circuit not even approaching the women they are most attracted to. That is not a problem in itself, but it is very isolating. Even on this thread we see rules emerging ("But it's been established here on TAM that third date seems to be the ruler") to help people understand.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Starstarfish said:


> K. But it's been established here on TAM that third date seems to be the ruler. If you aren't having sex by the third date you are clearly using the guy for free Ponderosa. And if you had sex before the third date with the last guy you dated or any guy ever, you have to have it on the second date for this guy or clearly you "aren't that into him" and you are "cheating him."
> 
> So ...
> 
> How do you wait and build a solid relationship with someone within the three date time frame?


There are no rules. There are approaches that can help you understand each other better. You are an adult, know what you are comfortable with.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

Mr The Other said:


> *There should not be a system or game*. Humanity and people have got on well and engaged for millenia since paleolithic times. Yet, we see people failing to engage or understand each other constantly. Failing to see the humanity in each other. The strict rules are for people who are very socially ignorant, but learning to be yourself is not as straight forward as it should be. Most middle-aged men believe they have sussed it all out, but once they are single they go on a very lonely dating circuit not even approaching the women they are most attracted to. That is not a problem in itself, but it is very isolating. Even on this thread we see rules emerging ("But it's been established here on TAM that third date seems to be the ruler") to help people understand.


Is it "rules" that are the problem or that so much 'conversation' seems to be _*scripted*_ that's the issue? 

"_If I say 'A', she'll respond with 'B', because she'll think I'm actually interested in her." _ Rinse and repeat until she falls into bed with you, and drop the 'act' once you've had your first orgasm with her. 

After a while, the whole approach just seems so...so...so ROBOTIC! There's no sincerity or *heart* behind the words. 

If I go on a date with someone and he actually asks me about myself ("So tell me WHY you want to go to Sweden?"), I'm going to wonder if he _sincerely_ wants to know about _me_ or if he's just following a rule to get me closer to jumping into bed with him.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Vega said:


> Is it "rules" that are the problem or that so much 'conversation' seems to be _*scripted*_ that's the issue?
> 
> "_If I say 'A', she'll respond with 'B', because she'll think I'm actually interested in her." _ Rinse and repeat until she falls into bed with you, and drop the 'act' once you've had your first orgasm with her.
> 
> ...


I think some of the guys giving advice on picking up women on this thread have never successfully picked up a women in their lives.By the time they have finished "analysing"the situation the object of their affection has probably left with some guy who just smiled and said hello.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Starstarfish said:


> K. But it's been established here on TAM that third date seems to be the ruler. If you aren't having sex by the third date you are clearly using the guy for free Ponderosa. And if you had sex before the third date with the last guy you dated or any guy ever, you have to have it on the second date for this guy or clearly you "aren't that into him" and you are "cheating him."
> 
> So ...
> 
> How do you wait and build a solid relationship with someone within the three date time frame?


Established by whom??? I have seen some guys go by the 3 date rule but have seen many other guys here state they don't believe in that. 

To me it is very simple. If you don't want to have sex by the 3rd date don't have sex. The easiest way to get rid of this silly rule is to not play along b/c honestly if a guy is going to ditch you after the 3rd date for not sleeping with him, is that really someone you want to be with


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Starstarfish said:


> K. But it's been established here on TAM that third date seems to be the ruler. If you aren't having sex by the third date you are clearly using the guy for free Ponderosa. And if you had sex before the third date with the last guy you dated or any guy ever, you have to have it on the second date for this guy or clearly you "aren't that into him" and you are "cheating him."
> 
> So ...
> 
> How do you wait and build a solid relationship with someone within the three date time frame?


Maybe stop taking "established" direction from TAM. Are you really saying you need to follow advice given here beyond your own comfort level??


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

Wolf1974 said:


> Maybe stop taking "established" direction from TAM. Are you really saying you need to follow advice given here beyond your own comfort level??





> The easiest way to get rid of this silly rule is to not play along b/c honestly if a guy is going to ditch you after the 3rd date for not sleeping with him, is that really someone you want to be with


I'm married and not on the dating scene, so ... no, I'm not taking the advice at all. And given everything I've read on TAM, I'm pretty settled that if I ever got divorced or end up widow (relatively) young I'm joining a nunnery.

I was joining pointing out that for every poster on one thread on TAM suggesting that women just "follow what feels right" there's a Red Pill post talking about how "goal measurement" and how to "check her for hypergamy" and other BS.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

Starstarfish said:


> I'm married and not on the dating scene, so ... no, I'm not taking the advice at all. And given everything I've read on TAM, I'm pretty settled that if I ever got divorced or end up widow (relatively) young I'm joining a nunnery.
> 
> I was joining pointing out that for every poster on one thread on TAM suggesting that women just "follow what feels right" there's a Red Pill post talking about how "goal measurement" and how to "check her for hypergamy" and other BS.


Well I am not married and have been in the dating scene for the last 6 years. I have no 3 date rule for sex, no don't Call for 48 hour rule, no real rules what so ever other than I don't date previous cheaters. 

So if you did become single, and I hope you don't and have a great marriage:smile2:, your choice to join the nunnery based on what you have read on TaM may be very short sighted. As you have identified correctly plenty of BS here to go around from people who aren't actually doing what they say they are.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> "... honestly if a guy is going to ditch you after the 3rd date for not sleeping with him, is that really someone you want to be with


:allhail:


Sez it all, Ellis! Sez. It. *ALL*! :grin2:


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

If someone has such strict ''rules'' for dating, there will be nothing special in dating that person. If a guy sleeps with every girl by the third date, then sleeping with me will be just part of the rules. No thanks. lol

I had no rules for dating, except I wouldn't sleep with guys unless we were in a relationship. With my fiance, we were nothing but good friends for a few years. He was my friend through my last engagement, and he took a chance after that engagement ended, to ask me out. I do believe that guys should do the initiating/asking, but women could do better with giving some signals as to our interest level. I'm independent, but also traditional when it comes to men and dating. It's just what feels most natural to me, when my fiance initiates and leads.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Honestly, me personally. If a girl wants to sleep with me after three dates then she's not marriage material. Because as far as I'm concerned, if she's that cavalier with me she's probably sleeping with everyone else too and I'd prefer a women whose thinks more of themselves (and also health / STD reasons) than that. That's my personal standard. If women are repulsed by beta behavior in men then I get to be repulsed by alpha behavior in women.

That's not to say I have no rules. When I did date, I had a three date rule for kissing. If it didn't happen by date three, then I felt the interest wasn't there and I moved on. Again that was my personal metric. If a good night kiss, wasn't going to happen then I'd rather find someone who had more interest. You need to have SOME boundaries in dating. I think expecting sex after 3 dates if you are SERIOUS about finding a long term relationship is absolutely absurd.


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## Vega (Jan 8, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> Honestly, *me personally. If a girl wants to sleep with me after three dates then she's not marriage material. Because as far as I'm concerned, if she's that cavalier with me she's probably sleeping with everyone else too *and I'd prefer a women whose thinks more of themselves (and also health / STD reasons) than that. That's my personal standard. If women are repulsed by beta behavior in men then I get to be repulsed by alpha behavior in women.
> 
> .


How in the WORLD do you come to THAT conclusion?! She might feel more STRONGLY about YOU than anyone else she's been with BEFORE you. Might be the FIRST time she's felt that way, and that she drank the Kool-Aid....that 'men' want to find out if the woman they're with is sexually compatible with them.......

There is NOTHING in her behavior that tells you, "Yeah. I do this with EVERYONE". NOTHING. 

The WORST part about this is that men who think like you will SLEEP WITH THEM *ANYWAY*. Geez, luEEZZ. If you're THAT turned off, then why sleep with her in the first place?!

I'm sorry, but this is contradictory. No man gets to sleep with a woman early in a relationship and then condemn her for doing so, saying that she's not "marriage material".


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Vega said:


> How in the WORLD do you come to THAT conclusion?! She might feel more STRONGLY about YOU than anyone else she's been with BEFORE you. Might be the FIRST time she's felt that way, and that she drank the Kool-Aid....that 'men' want to find out if the woman they're with is sexually compatible with them.......
> 
> There is NOTHING in her behavior that tells you, "Yeah. I do this with EVERYONE". NOTHING.


Okay.... She's waiting months or years for every relationship then I come along and all of a sudden by date #2 she in the sack with me cause I'm just so damn special. 

Please. Wake up from your naiveté. If she's smashing me that quickly her sex partners numbers are sky high. AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT for some.

For me, I'll pass. I recommend no less for a women. If a woman finds out the man she's dating is a man wh0re, she should run for the hills if that's not "her thing". 



Vega said:


> The WORST part about this is that men who think like you will SLEEP WITH THEM *ANYWAY*. Geez, luEEZZ. If you're THAT turned off, then why sleep with her in the first place?!
> 
> I'm sorry, but this is contradictory. No man gets to sleep with a woman early in a relationship and then condemn her for doing so, saying that she's not "marriage material".


Yes, I would sleep with her. Not seeing this great hypocrisy you are. If she wants to have sex, great. So are you saying that her offer of sex is conditional? That I have to pursue a relationship because of it? If that was the case, I would politely refuse her offer. 

I can dictate WHATEVER terms I see fit on WHOM I deem marriage material. It's my life and my choice. If you want to lecture me on how I'm missing out on all these quality women because they hand out sex like tic tacs then save your breath. I find nothing attractive what so ever about that quality.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Could make the same kind of foolish ruled-based inflexible thinking in the opposite direction. It is just as unproductive to say: if she doesn't sleep with you by the third date, then she is not marriage material - because if you marry her your sex life will be non-existent. There are women who sleep with you on the first date who go on to be fabulous faithful wives and lovers. There are women who wait longer to have sex who turn out to be vixens with their eventual husband. There are no guarantees in life.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Could make the same kind of foolish ruled-based inflexible thinking in the opposite direction.


If my standards allow me to dodge 9/10 bullets and 1/10 quality women get away then I'm okay with that.



Holdingontoit said:


> There are no guarantees in life.


I agree, do the best you can and hope for the best. Develop boundaries and standards that fit your life and stick with them.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Vega said:


> How in the WORLD do you come to THAT conclusion?! She might feel more STRONGLY about YOU than anyone else she's been with BEFORE you. Might be the FIRST time she's felt that way, and that she drank the Kool-Aid....that 'men' want to find out if the woman they're with is sexually compatible with them.......
> 
> There is NOTHING in her behavior that tells you, "Yeah. I do this with EVERYONE". NOTHING.
> 
> ...


Got to agree with this.

If I didn't marry someone that tried to have sex with me on the first date, I might never have married.

There were women that were usually very reserved and conservative sexually that wanted to bang my brains out on the first date.

Some just wanted the fun while others were hoping for more but I was far more promiscuous than most of them.

There are some people you will probably drop your drawers for in a heartbeat but that doesn't make you consistently promiscuous.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> If I didn't marry someone that tried to have sex with me on the first date





ConanHub said:


> I was far more promiscuous than most of them.


Well sounds like you and your spouse are on the same page with regard to sexual behavior. 

I see nothing wrong with this and you sound like a good match to me.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Got to agree with this.
> 
> If I didn't marry someone that tried to have sex with me on the first date, I might never have married.
> 
> ...


I think where people run into trouble, and in part what @BetrayedDad said, is when they decide to have sex with someone else at the onset, with the idea that it is conditional. I don't believe there is a right or wrong here. For some it may work out, for others they may feel scorned. If you feel scorned, all you can do is learn from your mistake.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BetrayedDad said:


> Well sounds like you and your spouse are on the same page with regard to sex behavior.
> 
> I see nothing wrong with this and you sound like a good match to me.


I just had a different experience coming of age and having sex.

Whatever was going on in their minds, women who were interested in me had their cloths off quickly without my encouragement in most occasions.

That includes virgins.

My point is that many of those gals were very nice and conservative, normally, sexually.

They weren't sleeping around, some not at all, before they tried to get in the sack with me.

Sometimes someone is just very attracted to an individual and decides it is worth going for it.

Anyway, just a perspective from a former man*****.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

AlphaMale74 said:


> The Way of the Alpha Male - GoAskSuzie.com
> 
> Just from my experience with women and currently my wife, women are more attracted to and become more sexual with men who genuinely display alpha male characteristics as opposed to beta male. Could this be the reason why some women no longer want to make love to their husbands? Fellas, just because you're married doesn't mean you need to become a beta, which is a turn off for women in general. We all have both characteristics and energy, but which one do we display more?


I've got a question for you @AlphaMale74 about this thread... Exactly how many "real alpha men" take the time to actually read articles on a website called goasksuzie.com and then try to talk about it?

In my opinion this *Alpha versus Beta* stuff is really about *metrosexuality*!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrosexual

This is essentially a beta man with an alpha-styled extreme makeover:











This would be why a real alpha man that does not bother to understand emotions and style would look at metrosexuals and just think, "This makes no sense, so this dude must be a homosexual or something!"

real alpha man website: Welders Equipment | Welding Supplies | Welding Machines | Plasma Cutting Machines | Used Plasma Cutters | Welding Helmets | MIG TIG Welders | Welders Supply Company Beloit-Big Bend-Burlington Wisconsin and Rockford & Crystal Lake, Illinois as in you don't find stuff about women talking about their feelings and stuff.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Vega said:


> Is it "rules" that are the problem or that so much 'conversation' seems to be _*scripted*_ that's the issue?
> 
> "_If I say 'A', she'll respond with 'B', because she'll think I'm actually interested in her." _ Rinse and repeat until she falls into bed with you, and drop the 'act' once you've had your first orgasm with her.
> 
> ...



Such an approach would be nonsense But it would be normal for many men. I refer back to the hypothetical conversation on Sweden. The ultimate beta would wait for women to make conversation that would be revealing, it is better to learn that immediately. The point should be that there is a real person (you in this case), and that what you threw out can tell a lot about you.

It should be a way of actually connecting with a person. Which means he should be open and vulnerable and when you open up and reveal something, he should realize that. 

Of course, that would help him sleep with more women. But more importantly, it will help him connect with more women, see them as real people and perhaps not as possible numbers for an ego.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

AlphaMale74 said:


> The Way of the Alpha Male - GoAskSuzie.com
> 
> Just from my experience with women and currently my wife, women are more attracted to and become more sexual with men who genuinely display alpha male characteristics as opposed to beta male. Could this be the reason why some women no longer want to make love to their husbands? Fellas, just because you're married doesn't mean you need to become a beta, which is a turn off for women in general. We all have both characteristics and energy, but which one do we display more?



I agree. However, I know a run round the park might make me feel better, but some are just too lazy. One of my girlfriends is also rather assertive sexually, and this is rather nice for us both. I am fine with it and I will not let you tell me otherwise.


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

Holdingontoit said:


> Could make the same kind of foolish ruled-based inflexible thinking in the opposite direction. It is just as unproductive to say: if she doesn't sleep with you by the third date, then she is not marriage material - because if you marry her your sex life will be non-existent. There are women who sleep with you on the first date who go on to be fabulous faithful wives and lovers. There are women who wait longer to have sex who turn out to be vixens with their eventual husband. There are no guarantees in life.


If the attraction level is high enough then most women or men will have sex on their first date.Whether either of them wants anything further is a different topic.What I have noticed is men who use the word man ***** are just guys who strike out most of the time when trying to pick up women.Its like the analogy,a ***** is a girl who will sleep with anyone,a ***** ***** is one who will sleep with anyone except you.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> If the attraction level is high enough then most women or men will have sex on their first date.Whether either of them wants anything further is a different topic.What I have noticed is men who use the word man ***** are just guys who strike out most of the time when trying to pick up women.Its like the analogy,a ***** is a girl who will sleep with anyone,a ***** ***** is one who will sleep with anyone except you.


LOL!

I used it to be self deprecating.

I have been very frank on this sight and it has been received offensively by some.😉


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## Andy1001 (Jun 29, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> LOL!
> 
> I used it to be self deprecating.
> 
> I have been very frank on this sight and it has been received offensively by some.😉


Maybe you took me up wrong but I wasn't quoting you and this is from one former man ***** to another.If I offended you then I apologise,it was not intended.The pick up "experts" on this thread would probably run away screaming if a real Alpha women came on to them.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> Maybe you took me up wrong but I wasn't quoting you and this is from one former man ***** to another.If I offended you then I apologise,it was not intended.The pick up "experts" on this thread would probably run away screaming if a real Alpha women came on to them.


No offense.

It is sometimes tricky being brutally honest on an anonymous site.

I have had blowback and tried to adapt.

I am on cold meds and now I get the gist of your statement! Duh!&#55357;&#56834;


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

Andy1001 said:


> If the attraction level is high enough then most women or men will have sex on their first date.Whether either of them wants anything further is a different topic.What I have noticed is men who use the word man ***** are just guys who strike out most of the time when trying to pick up women.Its like the analogy,a ***** is a girl who will sleep with anyone,a ***** ***** is one who will sleep with anyone except you.


I guess my girlfriend would disagree with you that I have a problem picking up chicks. Picked her up and I wasn't even really looking. She's only been with three other guys. Just my type.  Unless you're socially inept, it's not difficult to get laid with persistence. I've always been selective in who I slept with because frankly I can be. Plus I have this thing about STDs. Almost 40, squeaky clean, not even had a cold sore and I'd like to keep it that way. Fvcking someone for the sake of racking up some notches on a belt has never done it for me. I know that boosts a lot of guy's egos. Just reeks of insecurity to me personally but to each their own right?


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## *Deidre* (Feb 7, 2016)

Andy1001 said:


> If the attraction level is high enough then most women or men will have sex on their first date.Whether either of them wants anything further is a different topic.What I have noticed is men who use the word man ***** are just guys who strike out most of the time when trying to pick up women.Its like the analogy,a ***** is a girl who will sleep with anyone,a ***** ***** is one who will sleep with anyone except you.


I wouldn't say ''most.'' Many people don't want to have one night stands, or quick sex with someone they've just met. That doesn't mean the attraction or chemistry isn't there, it just means that they view sex as a little more meaningful. I don't judge people who have ONS or sleep with someone on the first date, it happens. But, I've always needed to trust the guy first, and no way I can trust someone when it's only been a first date.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Mr The Other said:


> Men who talk about the Red Pill are typical bitter and angry: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...pillers-have-not-actually-taken-red-pill.html
> The red pill concept would cheer them up, but they have not taken the look at life that they claim. They choose bitterness and to prey on the vulnerable.
> 
> I agree with "The key is just learn to make good conversation", but that is a bit like a basketball coach telling students "Be taller and better at basketball".
> ...


I find the more things you know and the broader basis of knowledge the easier it is. Then you have a basis to ask questions and continue the conversation.


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## Starstarfish (Apr 19, 2012)

> She's only been with three other guys.


At which point a lot of "Alpha" "Red Pill" posters would tell you to triple the number because she's probably lying.



> Almost 40, squeaky clean, not even had a cold sore and I'd like to keep it that way.


Ah yes, back to the whole only "certain people" get cold cores whole convo. 



> I've always been selective in who I slept with because frankly I can be.


Well arguably anyone can be. People won't actually die if they don't have sex. But frankly because you are hot, rich, self-restrained, what?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Starstarfish said:


> At which point a lot of "Alpha" "Red Pill" posters would tell you to triple the number because she's probably lying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

badsanta said:


> I've got a question for you @AlphaMale74 about this thread... Exactly how many "real alpha men" take the time to actually read articles on a website called goasksuzie.com and then try to talk about it?
> 
> 
> .


THAT depends on exactly what SUZIE looks like! are there pics? lol


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Wazza said:


> It gets fulfilled as a result of well documented hormone responses. I would start by advising the younger me to pick a partner who has similar level of drive and hope that you can ride out the changes over the years.
> 
> Some of the things in the article might help to avoid turn-offs, but in the long term I am not sure they will create desire where it does not exist.
> 
> ...


We all have needs. The issue is how they get fulfilled. The problem arises when you expect it is your wife's duty to fullfill them.

We are visiting my wife's niece. She said last night that it is unappealing for a man to make demands on a wife to have his needs met. 

A guy needs to inspire his wife to have his needs met. She needs to be willing, not forced into it. Needing to be inspired protects her.

A woman does not need another child in her husband. There is enough stress in her life without that.

I am sorry, but there is no room in a healthy relationship for a needy man. it is sad that some men use feminism as a way to take advantage of women.


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## TheTruthHurts (Oct 1, 2015)

*Deidre* said:


> I wouldn't say ''most.'' Many people don't want to have one night stands, or quick sex with someone they've just met. That doesn't mean the attraction or chemistry isn't there, it just means that they view sex as a little more meaningful. I don't judge people who have ONS or sleep with someone on the first date, it happens. But, I've always needed to trust the guy first, and no way I can trust someone when it's only been a first date.



@deidre I'm with you except for the part about judging others. But I'm older and we were taught the virtues of having values and beliefs, internalizing them, and acting upon them. Ya know, "character" stuff that they try to teach now.

To have values and boundaries one must evaluate and make judgements - yes actually judge others.

The western world is trying hard to be accepting and open minded, and I am NO conservative, but somehow healthy skepticism and judgement have been conflated with the evil "judgement" associated with alternate lifestyles. As in it's bad to be against gay people.

I'd love to see more though put into the discussion and have more people realize it's a GOOD thing to judge.

And as to those who are quick to jump in the sack And have ONS - I judge then harshly when it comes to LTR material. On other fronts perhaps their promiscuity is irrelevant. In choosing partners, few things are MORE relevsnt.

End diatribe  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Duguesclin said:


> We all have needs. The issue is how they get fulfilled. The problem arises when you expect it is your wife's duty to fullfill them.
> 
> We are visiting my wife's niece. She said last night that it is unappealing for a man to make demands on a wife to have his needs met.
> 
> ...


I can only repeat that each couple has their own journey. You and JLD have a path that works for you. That's great, but i think it will not work for everybody. Parts of it would not work for me. I'm really not interested in "inspiring" my wife. She knows who I am. She either wants to be with me or she doesn't.

And there is an element of duty about it. One obvious example...I need her to be faithful, and she *will* be faithful. I worked through an infidelity once, because we had kids, and it turned out ok. But if she ever does that again, it's over. Full stop. I'm not needy about how I express it, but is it a clear, articulated need.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I can only repeat that each couple has their own journey. You and JLD have a path that works for you. That's great, but i think it will not work for everybody. Parts of it would not work for me. I'm really not interested in "inspiring" my wife. She knows who I am. She either wants to be with me or she doesn't.
> 
> And there is an element of duty about it. One obvious example...I need her to be faithful, and she *will* be faithful. I worked through an infidelity once, because we had kids, and it turned out ok. But if she ever does that again, it's over. Full stop. I'm not needy about how I express it, but is it a clear, articulated need.


Did you two ever figure out why she had that affair? What the underlying vulnerability was?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

jld said:


> Did you two ever figure out why she had that affair? What the underlying vulnerability was?


I had to figure it out to be at peace with moving forward.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> I had to figure it out to be at peace with moving forward.


What was the underlying vulnerability?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

jld said:


> What was the underlying vulnerability?


It's not a single vulnerability, and would be a threadjack to discuss.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Wazza said:


> It's not a single vulnerability, and would be a threadjack to discuss.


Because this thread has kept so closely to discussing the subject of the OP . . . 

I hope you will start a thread on it someday. It would be an interesting topic to explore.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

AlphaMale74 said:


> The Way of the Alpha Male - GoAskSuzie.com
> 
> Just from my experience with women and currently my wife, women are more attracted to and become more sexual with men who genuinely display alpha male characteristics as opposed to beta male. Could this be the reason why some women no longer want to make love to their husbands? Fellas, just because you're married doesn't mean you need to become a beta, which is a turn off for women in general. We all have both characteristics and energy, but which one do we display more?


*I honestly don't necessarily give in to the propagated theories of alpha/beta male, with one being far more desirable or superior than the other!

As a long ago, former academic, I pretty much am still forced to subscribe to the theory that the best possible one is where a given male has just the right amount of combined alpha or beta characteristics which foremostly supersedes being or having only the innate traits of that of a pure alpha!*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *I honestly don't give in to the propagated theories of alpha/beta male, with one being far more desirable than the other!
> 
> As a former academic, I pretty much am forced to subscribe to the theory that the best possible one is where a given male has just the right amount of combined alpha or beta characteristics that foremostly supersedes being or having only the innate traits of a pure alpha!*


Did you read the article, arb? It is not the usual alpha beta stuff.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

Wazza said:


> It's not a single vulnerability, and would be a threadjack to discuss.


Just to hurry things along, would you just accept that every women is like Jld and that every man should therefore be like Dug. The discussion will go on for a dozen pages otherwise.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

jld said:


> Did you read the article, arb? It is not the usual alpha beta stuff.


*No, but I will certainly take time to review it and then issue additional commentary! Thanks!*


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

arbitrator said:


> *No, but I will certainly take time to review it and then issue additional commentary! Thanks!*


You are always such a gentleman, arb. Thanks for taking the time to read it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I read the entire article. It's flawed as it assumes a clean separation between A and B. 

Every item discussed there is in a spectrum, and trying to assign discrete values to analog values is a no-no. 

Think of Venn diagrams. The article seems to think it's like:










Or perhaps 










But in reality it is...


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## Dannip (Jun 13, 2017)

GusPolinski said:


> Quick, someone start a penis size thread.


Do alpha males or beta males have larger or smaller penises??


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Dannip said:


> Do alpha males or beta males have larger or smaller penises??


Yes.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Dannip said:


> Do alpha males or beta males have larger or smaller penises??


Yes but if you're an alpha you can have a smaller penis but still drive her wild through force of sheer will..
If you're a beta you will focus on pleasing her while she laughs at your manhood and you run away and cry..


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Dannip said:


> Do alpha males or beta males have larger or smaller penises??




Hand size for better grip is indicative of penis size if either (alpha or betas) have to spend a night alone. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## TBT (Dec 20, 2011)




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## Dannip (Jun 13, 2017)

TBT said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTyQgwVvYyc


Filmed by an offended beta male. Lol


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## Dannip (Jun 13, 2017)

BobSimmons said:


> Yes but if you're an alpha you can have a smaller penis but still drive her wild through force of sheer will..
> If you're a beta you will focus on pleasing her while she laughs at your manhood and you run away and cry..


Pleasing her? What a novel concept. Kidding, right?

I mean, who bothers with that anyway. ;-)


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Why am I reminded of the Gaston song out of the old Disney "beauty and the beast". (didn't like the new one as much).


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

So many men discussing what women really want. 
You guys spend way too much time trying to figure out what kind of man we need and way too little time listening to what we say. 

Women have different types. There isn't any man that all women will find attractive. Some love nerdy, romantic men. Some love big, tough alpha guys. 

There's a few general dislikes, I'm assuming no one like whiny, sad, negative types. Of either gender. 

But find someone you are compatible with, don't play games and pretend to be someone you aren't. Stop making things so difficult. Listen to your wife, meet her needs. Don't stop dating.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Genetically women are attracted to alpha men. It is left over from ancient times when women needed a man to hunt and protect her and any children. These days money and the trappings of success substitute for hunting and wearing animal furs. I am lucky to have been a good looking Jock and military combat vet who landed a job that put me in the top 5% of income earners in the US. My wife had heard about me and saw my picture years before she met me. She said yes when I proposed to her three weeks after we met. Long story short, she ended up sharing me with her best friend for 30 years of our 45 years of marriage. You can figure out how many threesome I had with a live in girlfriend and wife. 

It is said that beta men make the best husbands but alpha men make better lovers in the sack. I have had married women tell me that this is true. They loved their husbands and said they were good providers and fathers but did not ring their bell in bed. That is where I came in. I never took them out on dates. Straight to a motel or hotel for sex until the next time we met. One said that I take her orgasms from her. That I dominated her sexually and made her orgasm without having to close her eyes and think of things to arouse herself like when she was with her husband. Another had her first orgasm with a man (me) despite being married. I had 30 sex partners in my life but only dated 4. Girls wanted me for sex and not relationships because they knew I was not a one woman guy. 

It is good to be alpha. Very good.


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## Quality (Apr 26, 2016)

Vinnydee said:


> Genetically women are attracted to alpha men. It is left over from ancient times when women needed a man to hunt and protect her and any children. These days money and the trappings of success substitute for hunting and wearing animal furs. I am lucky to have been a good looking Jock and military combat vet who landed a job that put me in the top 5% of income earners in the US. My wife had heard about me and saw my picture years before she met me. She said yes when I proposed to her three weeks after we met. Long story short, she ended up sharing me with her best friend for 30 years of our 45 years of marriage. You can figure out how many threesome I had with a live in girlfriend and wife.
> 
> It is said that beta men make the best husbands but alpha men make better lovers in the sack. I have had married women tell me that this is true. They loved their husbands and said they were good providers and fathers but did not ring their bell in bed. That is where I came in. I never took them out on dates. Straight to a motel or hotel for sex until the next time we met. One said that I take her orgasms from her. That I dominated her sexually and made her orgasm without having to close her eyes and think of things to arouse herself like when she was with her husband. Another had her first orgasm with a man (me) despite being married. I had 30 sex partners in my life but only dated 4. Girls wanted me for sex and not relationships because they knew I was not a one woman guy.
> 
> It is good to be alpha. Very good.


That is some funny stuff there.

Alpha men don't have to brag on anonymous forums about how many chicks they've banged in real life or carry on about their swinging adulterous lifestyle. But I understand why you do it. Because you can't say these things in real life to real people because they'd "judge" you, laugh at you and, quite likely, avoid you. 

This isn't behavior isn't alpha or beta man behavior ~ it's just deviant dog frat boy behavior you should be ashamed about.

And I'm not saying this as some Puritan guy that's jealous of you or something because I didn't experience the sexual revolution myself. I did. My "count" or 'n' number or whatever those fools refer to it as is actually much higher than yours. I have repented for such behavior in my youth and regret it. It's not something I am proud of and I certainly would never boast about it. My penis does not determine my manhood.

It's good to not care if you're an alpha, a beta or a carrot or whatever {wouldn't calling yourself an Alpha actually be one of the most beta things a guy could do ~ especially some 60+ year old "man"}. Very good.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

My H is alpha and that part of the relationship is not an issue, he turns me on big time. 
However, I think a balance is called for, alpha males can also be arrogant and self centered, reluctant to show emotions, and want to take control all the time. It tends to go hand in hand with the alpha state methinks.

So a man who exhibits both is probably better, in other words a man who enjoys and is confident in his maleness but is not afraid to be soft and expose his soft underbelly. 

The alpha stuff can get a bit old to be honest.


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## MrsAldi (Apr 15, 2016)

TBT said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YTyQgwVvYyc


 Matriarchal does rule over alpha. 

I can't tell you how many times the husband and even male cat have run for cover if I happen to get angry! 

Sent from my F3311 using Tapatalk


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I guess I still don't really believe in the whole Alpha Beta thing. I think it over simplifies attraction, and in some ways the definition of Alpha is more based on what men think women want as opposed to what they actually want. I know guys that get laid very quickly and easily, but I wouldn't describe them as Alpha. They are just really good looking, and a good looking Beta can get laid a lot easier than a so so looking Alpha. I guess what I'm saying is that more variables are needed in this equation.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

I noticed while dating some of these guys who must have read a book and were trying to act all alpha to get the girl. 
It's noticeable and really looks insecure and just sad. 

Best way to be alpha imo is to find what you are good and passionate about and be confident in that. It's when men are trying to be something they aren't that is the problem. 

My bf is a total nerd. He's also soft and sweet and tender and listens to me go on and on endlessly. He cares for me in words and actions He never brags. He's never c*cky. He never flirts with other women, never even looks at other women when we are out. I am the centre of his world and he treats me that way always. Yet he can be totally dominant. 

And I met a lot of guys who try to be dominant by being c*cky and "look how many girls I can get" and bragging and acting entitled. It's so unattractive.
Funny one of them told me his last relationships didn't work cause he ended it, he just wasn't ready to commit to them and they weren't right. 2 of his ex lovers mentioned casually to me that *they* ended it cause of the same issues I had. Too c*cky, too outgoing with other women, not enough soft and squishy side. 

They get girls initially, they don't stick around long. But somehow guys look up to them cause they keep getting all these women and omg how I can get all these women. 
They should be looking to men who keep their wives and gfs and who are truly happy to be role models.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

But many posters are defining an "alpha" man as someone that lots of women want to have sex with. Its a circular definition. 

What do you mean by "alpha"?

Are rock stars alpha? Artists? Wealthy businessmen? Politicians? Fighter pilots? 





Vinnydee said:


> Genetically women are attracted to alpha men. It is left over from ancient times when women needed a man to hunt and protect her and any children. These days money and the trappings of success substitute for hunting and wearing animal furs. I am lucky to have been a good looking Jock and military combat vet who landed a job that put me in the top 5% of income earners in the US. My wife had heard about me and saw my picture years before she met me. She said yes when I proposed to her three weeks after we met. Long story short, she ended up sharing me with her best friend for 30 years of our 45 years of marriage. You can figure out how many threesome I had with a live in girlfriend and wife.
> 
> It is said that beta men make the best husbands but alpha men make better lovers in the sack. I have had married women tell me that this is true. They loved their husbands and said they were good providers and fathers but did not ring their bell in bed. That is where I came in. I never took them out on dates. Straight to a motel or hotel for sex until the next time we met. One said that I take her orgasms from her. That I dominated her sexually and made her orgasm without having to close her eyes and think of things to arouse herself like when she was with her husband. Another had her first orgasm with a man (me) despite being married. I had 30 sex partners in my life but only dated 4. Girls wanted me for sex and not relationships because they knew I was not a one woman guy.
> 
> It is good to be alpha. Very good.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Alpha men being good in bed lasts as long as the new relationship energy does. Beta guy was good in bed at the start too. Then came kids and diapers and work and it takes more to keep the fire going. 

Alpha guy has more, short term flings so he has that new excitement to work with, of course it's easy to turn a girl on at the start. Dating is when sex is hot. That's why you need to keep dating when you get married. 

When Alpha guy can come home to a wife who has been cleaning up baby poop, dog puke and boogers all day long with a baby on her breast and a toddler hanging off her leg and seduce her and meet her emotional needs enough to make her want sex, then I'm impressed.

Picking up women for flings and ONS isn't impressive.

I found alpha guys pretty 'meh' and average really. Too c*cky for their own good. One guy professed to be the "king" of making a woman c*m.... no, he really wasn't but his poor ego really needed me to agree with him so I did. I'm guessing that's where a lot of these guys get their stats from. He still, BTW, thinks he is the best.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

SlowlyGoingCrazy said:


> They get girls initially, they don't stick around long. But somehow guys look up to them cause they keep getting all these women and omg how I can get all these women. They should be looking to men who keep their wives and gfs and who are truly happy to be role models.


Your suggestion assumes that what most beta men want is a long term relationship with one woman who is happy to have sex with him. Maybe what these beta men want is to experience what it is like to have a bunch of short term sexually charged relationships. Might make the men selfish and immature. But who they should look to as role models is in part based on what outcome they are trying to achieve.


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## SlowlyGoingCrazy (Jun 2, 2011)

Holdingontoit said:


> Your suggestion assumes that what most beta men want is a long term relationship with one woman who is happy to have sex with him. Maybe what these beta men want is to experience what it is like to have a bunch of short term sexually charged relationships. Might make the men selfish and immature. But who they should look to as role models is in part based on what outcome they are trying to achieve.


Sure if they are single but the married guys looking up to these "alpha" men aren't really going to do very well wanting a bunch of sexually charged relationships. Unless they plan on divorcing they should be figuring out how to please their wife, not a bunch of random girls he picks up at the bar. It's 2 separate things completely.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Here is an interesting observation I made last week. I was out with clients for dinner at a steakhouse in a rather wealthy area. Once dinner was over I was waiting outside for the valet to bring me my car, so naturally I was observing every car that came into the parking like. It was like clockwork. Every luxury car (when I say luxury, I am saying Aston Martin, Maserati, higher end Benz, etc...) that entered the lot was being driven by a man (single). Every "basic" car (Mazda, Honda, Nissan, etc...) was driven by women (either single or with other women). Every woman was dressed in some version of a miniskirt, all dolled up showing as much skin as possible. For the guys, the car signified their "alpha" status. This one guy I actually wanted to go up to him and apologize since it appeared he must have a really small penis lol.

As ridiculous as I thought both these men and women looked, they knew exactly what role they were playing (whether it was who they truly were, or who they felt they needed to be in order to attract the opposite sex).


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## Ikaika (Apr 23, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Your suggestion assumes that what most beta men want is a long term relationship with one woman who is happy to have sex with him. Maybe what these beta men want is to experience what it is like to have a bunch of short term sexually charged relationships. Might make the men selfish and immature. But who they should look to as role models is in part based on what outcome they are trying to achieve.




Oh I'm so jealous... not. Maybe (prefer not make a definitive proclamation) when I was young man (boy) I pursued these short term experiences. 

At my age I don't envy those males still in pursuit of girls. I have more important things to do like raising two teenage boys to be responsible men. I don't know what is more alpha than that. And, I still love my wife and she still "digs" me after 23 years of marriage. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

Vinnydee said:


> Genetically women are attracted to alpha men. It is left over from ancient times when women needed a man to hunt and protect her and any children. These days money and the trappings of success substitute for hunting and wearing animal furs. I am lucky to have been a good looking Jock and military combat vet who landed a job that put me in the top 5% of income earners in the US. My wife had heard about me and saw my picture years before she met me. She said yes when I proposed to her three weeks after we met. Long story short, she ended up sharing me with her best friend for 30 years of our 45 years of marriage. You can figure out how many threesome I had with a live in girlfriend and wife.
> 
> It is said that beta men make the best husbands but alpha men make better lovers in the sack. I have had married women tell me that this is true. They loved their husbands and said they were good providers and fathers but did not ring their bell in bed. That is where I came in. I never took them out on dates. Straight to a motel or hotel for sex until the next time we met. One said that I take her orgasms from her. That I dominated her sexually and made her orgasm without having to close her eyes and think of things to arouse herself like when she was with her husband. Another had her first orgasm with a man (me) despite being married. I had 30 sex partners in my life but only dated 4. Girls wanted me for sex and not relationships because they knew I was not a one woman guy.
> 
> It is good to be alpha. Very good.


OH, so you are a POSOM...........got it.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its funny. Around here the wanna-be wealthy drive Aston Martins. The wealthy drive normal cars and own jets. The super wealthy get driven around.








EllisRedding said:


> Here is an interesting observation I made last week. I was out with clients for dinner at a steakhouse in a rather wealthy area. Once dinner was over I was waiting outside for the valet to bring me my car, so naturally I was observing every car that came into the parking like. It was like clockwork. Every luxury car (when I say luxury, I am saying Aston Martin, Maserati, higher end Benz, etc...) that entered the lot was being driven by a man (single). Every "basic" car (Mazda, Honda, Nissan, etc...) was driven by women (either single or with other women). Every woman was dressed in some version of a miniskirt, all dolled up showing as much skin as possible. For the guys, the car signified their "alpha" status. This one guy I actually wanted to go up to him and apologize since it appeared he must have a really small penis lol.
> 
> As ridiculous as I thought both these men and women looked, they knew exactly what role they were playing (whether it was who they truly were, or who they felt they needed to be in order to attract the opposite sex).


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