# Synopsis & Update on ongoing? emotional affair



## HurtinginTN

9 months ago, my wife started playing online spades every night with a particular man. She had played lots on the computer and even on that sight. However, it wasn't long before it was obvious they were becoming more than card partners. She would search for him as soon as she got on the site. He would search for her as soon as he got on the site. They would play together for hours every night.

We had several arguments over the first 7 months. I would get angry about the time spent with him. She would give me the script that I know now to be quite common. "It's just a game." "You wouldn't care if I was spending this time with a woman." "You're just jealous." "You're just insecure." "He's just a good spades partner." "We win all the time because we have the same playing style." etc. etc.

About 2 months ago, I came across some google searches. "Falling in love over the internet." "Ending an emotional affair" and a few others. I confronted her. "You've been lying about "affair partner name". "Yes, I have. As a matter of fact, he's the one I wish I was with right now." She agreed that she wouldn't contact him any further.

A day or two later, she wanted to play with him to see if it could just be friends as it should have been. Somehow, being the doormat that I now know I have been, I reluctantly agreed. This went on for a few days. She had promised it wouldn't go back to every night. After a few every nights in a row, I said he had to go.

Then came the controlling accusations. "I need time to make my decision." "You can't force me to decide." etc. That's about the time I found this site.

I have finally starting becoming stronger, mainly due to all of the help and information I have gleaned from the many friends I have found on here. I have now a great support group. This site, my family, her family, friends, etc.

She has refused to stop the affair until a few nights ago. I sat her down and told her that she needs to either dump him, go to marriage counselling, and start working on our marriage or we need to start liquidating our assets in preparation for divorce. I told her I think we need to go for an uncontested divorce since it will be cheaper and easier on the kids.

She said she doesn't want a divorce and will end it with him that night. She called to end it with him, supposedly. However, I still don't understand and she won't explain why a "goodbye" phone call lasted about 3 hours. Also, she will not give up the affair phone or the online passwords. The OM has her passwords. He is the one that set them up. I told her that as long as he has that info and I don't, the affair is still ongoing.

She swears it is over, but won't give me what I ask. She is very angry that I don't just trust her. The kids are gone for a few days with my sister-in-law. Our anniversary is tomorrow. I cooked a nice meal last night - steak, baked potatoes, etc. We did eat dinner together. The trust thing came up last night and I explained that she has continually shown that she can not be trusted. Hiding the phone and not giving the passwords only reinforces that instead of working on rebuilding trust.

Pit of my Stomach made a great point. Even if she is done and does actively start working on the marriage, am I too far gone to forgiver her and start over? I don't know. I really feel nothing for her at this point. She feels less for me. One day at a time. Tomorrow is our 13th wedding anniversary. That should be a great day.


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## the guy

You stay strong and no matter what any body tells you... you stay strong in the belief that NOT trusting your wife is a good thing.
Don't believe for one minute that you are the bad guy for not trusting your wife. She has broken that bond and it is her choice to stay with you and rebuild it by being transperent on *your* term, not hers.

I have no problem telling my cheating wife that I don't trust her, I have never hidden from that fact and I don't care how many people tell me its unhealth I will continue to make my self clear that this emotion, behavior or what ever is gone and the person that took it is Mrs. the guy. 
Granted Mrs. the guy can leave and I could find some one else and I would have to tell them I have trust issues b/c .........

The point is this women has scared me and it is her job to heal me if she so chooses. The good thing she has made that choice to to just that and it has been hard for her but she is making progress in healing me.

Again stay strong and don't be fooled with the BS your wife and others tell you about trust. You have suffered an injury for say and you have every right to have these issues and it is her choice to help you heal. The good news is it is an injury and it can be healed..if not by Mrs. hurt....but when the right person comes along.


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## just_peachy

I just had that conversation with my cheating husband this evening. I told him I only believe what he can prove right now, and he said he doesn't blame me. He has until tonight to make his decision, but at least he's not trying to hide it anymore, or expecting me to trust him.

All of this is to say - you already know the answer. If she's whining about "trust" and refusing to give you the keys to do that, she's still neck-deep in the affair. I'm sorry.

Cheating spouses have to wear their scarlett letters for a while, and they *will,* if they're really out of the affair and fully re-committed to the marriage.


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## the guy

jp- has hit the nail on the head ....the scarlett letter is a great way of putting it.


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## twotimeloser

THank you for the summary, I will respond after i tuck in the kids


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## twotimeloser

OK, Hurt...

Congrats on getting her to commit to the relationship. What that does not do for you is guarantee that it will work out, but what it DOES do is allow you a new set of reasonable expectations. 

EMBRACE that. Expand your expectations and take what has been given to you through the commitment.

You do not need to ask her for passwords to phone accounts, simply call the company and reset them. You should write down list of what you want and give it to her, with a time frame to provide them. She has committed tot he relationship, and these are what you require. Make it clear that it is not to snoop, but to verify that she is keeping her word.

You should change her number. Do all the leg work if you have to, make sure you get the new number to the people who need it. If she is committed, this is a reasonable expectation.

Delete the game, and buy her a new one without on-line access. You will be offering an equally entertaining option for her, but the source of the pain must go. This too is a reasonable expectation for a the commit you have gotten.

I am going to say something that is going to hurt your feelings but i want you to take it, swallow it, digest it and let it fester inside you until it grows.

You have been a coward of a man. You have been weak and not the kind of leader that a family deserves. 

This is your chance, Hurt, to become that man. To be the moral, spiritual and overall leader that your family has been without. You seem like a wonderful person with a good soul, Now you need to teach that lesson to your wife. 

I have seen the abuse that you have endured, the weakness and fear in your posts. I am here to tell you that right now you are EMPOWERED. The BS stops today! Today you become a man, the man that a family needs to hold it together. 

For too long YOU have been your biggest obstacle by allowing her control over a sinful situation. Give her love, but demand respect. This is not about you, this is not about her. This about the "WE" the "OUR" the "US" of marriage. She has been an infection to the unity of marriage and it is time for you to be the cure.

She has committed to saving the relationship. You must act on that as though it is a 100% commitment. You must act on the new set of expectations that she has allowed you to its fullest extent. Knowingly or unknowingly, it is irrelevant. She must accept her new reality.

I applaude you for having endured such torture, but now is the time to make your stand. Now is the time for you to take your place as head of your household. Lead her to forgiveness and yourself to redemption.

Begin with a letter outlining your new set of expectations. I have said this 100 times and i will say it again: It must be a letter... hand written preferred. Letters are a personal one way conversation that is not open for debate, excuses or rebuttal. They are clear, to the point and unmistakable in their intention. The reader can review for clarity. WRITE A LETTER. 

Ask for difficult subject matter that you want revealed, in a letter as well (if you still need that information). For the very same reason.. and additionally because it easier for a person to be honest in a letter due tot he fact that they must think about what they are saying and they do not have to look you in the eye.

A transformation is about to take place. Everyone had that crossroad life. where what they say, what they do and how they do it will decide the path of their future. This is that time for you Hurt. 

I hope this gives you motivation and inspiration to act and become the man that she needs you to be. The days of Desperation must be put behind you. 

Let me know your thoughts on the matter. 

Just a bit of advice: Be assertive. your wife is an aggressive personality type and you are a passive based person. She will seek accommodation from you because that is your highest level of conflict resolution that you are truly comfortable with. 

NEVER compromise, always collaborate. 

You can do this hurt!!!


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## Affaircare

If you don't mind I'm going to go along twotime's post and share for you from a disloyal's point of view...and a female's. I suspect you may be surprised...



> OK, Hurt...
> 
> Congrats on getting her to commit to the relationship. What that does not do for you is guarantee that it will work out, but what it DOES do is allow you a new set of reasonable expectations.
> 
> EMBRACE that. Expand your expectations and take what has been given to you through the commitment.


This is dead on, 100% correct. You have stood firmly in a HECK of a marital storm and for that I am very proud of you. However, getting her to commit to the relationship does not mean SQUAT unless her actions match her words. Right now, her commitment is about as valuable as the helium that fills a balloon, so if she really is committed she is going to have to demonstrate that through ACTIONS and she's going to have to do those actions voluntarily. If you force her, you're just controlling her; and if she refuses then she is not committed. It's just that simple. It is MORE THAN REASONABLE for you to indicate to her what you would require in order to continue the marriage, but I would caution you to just remember that your boundaries will be fences around YOU and what you will and will not allow in your life, not rules that she "has to live by." 



> You do not need to ask her for passwords to phone accounts, simply call the company and reset them. You should write down list of what you want and give it to her, with a time frame to provide them. She has committed tot he relationship, and these are what you require. Make it clear that it is not to snoop, but to verify that she is keeping her word.


Speaking as a former disloyal and a female, again this is right on the money but will probably be a bitter pill for her to swallow. Here's the way this works. If YOU are going to pay for a phone for her to use, then you will have the passwords and access to her records. Period. If she is going to pay for her own phone that's cool, but as the spouse whom she has already lied to, your boundary would be that you will not be with a person who does not willingly and openly share their phone and access to their phone at all times. That means if she wants to buy her own phone and pay for it, that's cool with you...but your boundary for yourself is that anyone who's going to be a partner with you will be open and transparent about their phone, email, FB, etc. 

Now speaking as a disloyal, this "feels" like your spouse is treating you like a child and snooping on you, but the fact is that part of the cost of her hiding calls from you with COloverbooy and being devious and deceptive is that she now has to be an open book to earn your trust back. Or let me rephrase that. You trust her to be dishonest--100%!! You do not trust her HONESTY! So if she wants you to trust her honesty, she has to BEHAVE honestly and have her words and actions match. She will have to endure the "feeling" of being checked on and behave WELL...and after some time when she says she'll be XYZ and she actually is XYZ then you'll start to trust her honest again, right? 

And speaking as a disloyal, it will help somewhat if you set a good example and also give her access to your email, phone, FB etc. that it shows her that not only do you hold HER to that standard, but you yourself will be transparent with her and allow her to see the True You. Now, there is no dishonesty for which she should distrust you except that if you have been feeling less than satisfied with the marriage, etc. this is the time to let her in on your personal thoughts the same as you expect her to open up herself to you. I guarantee you she'll say "But I don't want to see your email, phone, FB, etc." but that's too bad. This is a non-negotiable. She's transparent or she's hiding something. Period. 



> You should change her number. Do all the leg work if you have to, make sure you get the new number to the people who need it. If she is committed, this is a reasonable expectation.


Again, I agree except on a very small matter. I believe she should change her number and this is a more-than-reasonable step to take. Ideally it would be best if you two worked as a team and she agreed to change for the sake of the marriage. If she is committed, she'll bite the bullet. If she does not want to change the number (and chances are about 90% she won't) her arguments will likely be "It will be inconvenient to tell my business contacts of the new number" or something silly like that), well that is the cost of her infidelity! If she is really willing to commit, she will do what has to be done to cut the OM out of her life 100%. That's why, on the occasion I will even suggest that if the affair is at work, that people quit their jobs! Because marriages survive periods of unemployment but they DO NOT SURVIVE ongoing adultery! 

If she is not willing and you are paying for the phones, then I would suggest being firm and saying that if YOU pay for phones you will not pay for her to continue with her lover. The choices are a) you continue to pay, she changes her number and tells "family" that she had a hassling solicitor or something.... or b) she has to pay her own phone and you'll know then that her "commitment" is about as trustworthy as her promise. 



> Delete the game, and buy her a new one without on-line access. You will be offering an equally entertaining option for her, but the source of the pain must go. This too is a reasonable expectation for a the commit you have gotten.


Agree on this 100%. In fact, after deleting the game, blocking it, etc. I suggest making the effort to find something recreational that both she and you enjoy doing. If she likes playing cards, then show her some games you like and do the fun activity together. 



> I am going to say something that is going to hurt your feelings but i want you to take it, swallow it, digest it and let it fester inside you until it grows.
> 
> You have been a coward of a man. You have been weak and not the kind of leader that a family deserves.
> 
> This is your chance, Hurt, to become that man. To be the moral, spiritual and overall leader that your family has been without. You seem like a wonderful person with a good soul, Now you need to teach that lesson to your wife.


Okay I'm not going to call you a coward, but I am going to say that what is called for here is not going to be compromising and giving in. In order to save this, you are going to have to act like a warrior leader and do some things that will feel harsh and she will probably say hurt her. (Don't be fooled: it is her choice to act poorly that is actually hurting her...not what you are doing.) She will likely blame you and try to guilt you for her choices, but the fact is that in order to save HER and save the MARRIAGE you have to be the hero now. That means you have to be courageous enough to treat her like a full adult and if she makes disasterous choices, don't prevent her from experiencing the consequences. If she makes choices that are going to cost HER and sink HER don't let her pull you down and drown you and the kids too! And if you're going to make this marriage healthy and loving, YOU are going to have to set the tone...and the tone is this: 

"When we married we volunteered to forsake all others and give 100% of our affection and loyalty ONLY TO EACH OTHER. I will not accept anything less than 100%. If you want to give any part of your affection to someone else, or give some of your loyalty to another man, I will not accept that. I will not participate in your choice to give yourself to someone else either. So it's either 100% to me, honoring the vow and what is my due...or you're on your own" And part of what is due to you as her husband, is her affection, her loyalty and the TRUE HER. That means knowing where she is, what she's doing, who she's doing it with, and knowing her real, innermost thoughts and feelings. 

You HAVE TO DO THIS or you will not save your marriage. It is that urgent. So don't be afraid. It may feel counterproductive, because it seems like it just makes her "more mad" but in real life, it is what your marriage needs. Be Brave. Do it. 



> I have seen the abuse that you have endured, the weakness and fear in your posts. I am here to tell you that right now you are EMPOWERED. The BS stops today! Today you become a man, the man that a family needs to hold it together.


I agree with this as well. The buck stops here and stops now. The line is in the sand, and it is a reasonable one. You understand that people make mistakes and you're willing to grow with her and do better as a couple...but the COST is that she has to let go of the lover and then prove to you with her actions that she is continuing to do so. There is no compromise here. 



> For too long YOU have been your biggest obstacle by allowing her control over a sinful situation. Give her love, but demand respect. This is not about you, this is not about her. This about the "WE" the "OUR" the "US" of marriage. She has been an infection to the unity of marriage and it is time for you to be the cure.


Actually I was going to write to you about this too. Just so you know, I am a believing Christian and wanted to explain a few things that seemed to be confusing you. I'll suffice it to say here that God does indeed say that He hates divorce, yet in that same verse (right after that) it says "...so be on your guard so you don't become unfaithful!" [look it up: Malachi 2:16]. What God hates there is someone who BREAKS THEIR COVENANT. Next, unconditional love does not mean "I'll let her get away with anything." Read the book of Hosea (in the Old Testament) and you'll see it's by a prophet who was specifically told by God to marry a hooker and then stay faithful to her. Why? He wanted an example of what it's been like to be God and love us, and yet we were unfaithful and turning to other gods all the time! But the "unconditional" part does not mean that He prevents us from experiencing the consequences of our infidelity (in turning to other gods). Hey one huge consequence is that sin is in the world!! Nope we still have to experience the consequences and they hurt us a LOT...but the "unconditional" part means that IF WE REPENT and turn to Him, He does not turn us away. Same for unfaithful spouses: if they REPENT (which means 180 degrees turning away from their infidelity and changing how they act and think and feel) they still have to experience the consequences of their bad choices (such as, losing their phone, being snooped on, maybe having an STD...) but if they absolutely change, then the loyal one is asked to not turn them away. They have the RIGHT but the very high road would be to not exercise a right you have the ability to exercise! Does that make sense? 



> She has committed to saving the relationship. You must act on that as though it is a 100% commitment. You must act on the new set of expectations that she has allowed you to its fullest extent. Knowingly or unknowingly, it is irrelevant. She must accept her new reality.
> 
> I applaude you for having endured such torture, but now is the time to make your stand. Now is the time for you to take your place as head of your household. Lead her to forgiveness and yourself to redemption.


What can I say? :iagree:



> Begin with a letter outlining your new set of expectations. I have said this 100 times and i will say it again: It must be a letter... hand written preferred. Letters are a personal one way conversation that is not open for debate, excuses or rebuttal. They are clear, to the point and unmistakable in their intention. The reader can review for clarity. WRITE A LETTER.
> 
> Ask for difficult subject matter that you want revealed, in a letter as well (if you still need that information). For the very same reason.. and additionally because it easier for a person to be honest in a letter due tot he fact that they must think about what they are saying and they do not have to look you in the eye.


I agree with this as well, with the reminder that you do not control her but you absolutely DO control you and what you will and will not live with and allow in your life. I find that when I talk to someone about difficult topics I can do "okay" but when I write, I can be more precise, fix the wording to be more accurate, go back and edit so it's not filled with emotionally explosive words, etc. Doing that while talking can be hard. So I agree that if you aren't a natural "orator" that writing is better...if you're a good writer. If you're not a talker or writer, give us a clue in what way you best identify and communicate your thoughts and feelings and we can adapt that to fit your situation. Okay?



> A transformation is about to take place. Everyone had that crossroad life. where what they say, what they do and how they do it will decide the path of their future. This is that time for you Hurt.
> 
> I hope this gives you motivation and inspiration to act and become the man that she needs you to be. The days of Desperation must be put behind you.
> 
> Let me know your thoughts on the matter.
> 
> Just a bit of advice: Be assertive. your wife is an aggressive personality type and you are a passive based person. She will seek accommodation from you because that is your highest level of conflict resolution that you are truly comfortable with.
> 
> NEVER compromise, always collaborate.
> 
> You can do this hurt!!!


I have one final thought. From this point forward, you and your wife have to move from a confrontational/adversarial way of working to a cooperative/mutual way of working. In other words, move from being competitors to being on the same team. In order to do this you will have to be transparent (meaning "see through") to each other, and you are going to need to practice standing up for yourself in an assertive way. This means being honest and healthy--true to yourself--not being passive and not being abusive to her. Practice stating your truth and standing for it...and then evaluate where you could do better and practice THAT. 

I agree with twotime also on this: You CAN do this, Hurting. You have people behind you, now LEAD ON!


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## HurtinginTN

just_peachy said:


> All of this is to say - you already know the answer. If she's whining about "trust" and refusing to give you the keys to do that, she's still neck-deep in the affair. I'm sorry.


Absolutely. I told her that keeping the affair phone and passwords hidden screams so loudly that the affair is still on that I can't hear her words saying it's over. There would be no problem getting rid of the phone. OM and me are the only two with the number. It was specifically bought and only used for contact with him. I saw the chat where they first discussed it. It was on that horrible night that I witnessed levels of the iceberg that I previously would have never imagined. He said Verizon. That is what she chose so she has unlimited cell - to cell minutes with him. (I have AT&T wireless.)

Also, I went to my parents' yesterday for my brother's birthday. The kids have gone to my sister-in-law's house for a few days. She was home alone. When I got home, I looked at the internet history. There was a new game that she had been playing, golf. She has never before showed any interest whatsoever in golf. I have the transcripts (Possibly the same night as the cell phone conversation) where he mentions finding a new game, maybe golf. Also, her user name that she was playing golf with was HIS FAVORITE screenname that she had used on Spadester. I also have the transcripts showing that conversation. I told her I was going to ask her a question and I would appreciate it if she would give me an honest answer. "Have you had any contact with OM since you said you wouldn't?" She said no. I said, "Well something interesting is on the history. You played 45 holes of golf today online. OM mentioned changing games to golf. You also played with his favorite screen name. Is that just coincidence?" "Yes, it is. I haven't talked to him." I asked how in the world she could possibly expect me to believe that.



twotimeloser said:


> You do not need to ask her for passwords to phone accounts, simply call the company and reset them. !!!


It is a prepaid phone. I have tried. She has the security question, pin #, etc. hidden. It is in her name. There is no way for me to gain access without the phone, which she still keeps hidden.




twotimeloser said:


> You should write down list of what you want and give it to her, with a time frame to provide them. She has committed tot he relationship, and these are what you require. Make it clear that it is not to snoop, but to verify that she is keeping her word.
> !!!


I agree. I will do that today and give it to her tonight. This is our 13 year anniversary. Woo Hoo!! I am considering picking up some roses on the way home. Then at least she can't come back and say I didn't give her anything. I gave her roses for Valentine's Day. Her present to me? Hours playing games with Romeo.



twotimeloser said:


> You have been a coward of a man. You have been weak and not the kind of leader that a family deserves.


Yes, that hurts. However, it is true.



twotimeloser said:


> Ask for difficult subject matter that you want revealed, in a letter as well (if you still need that information). For the very same reason.. and additionally because it easier for a person to be honest in a letter due tot he fact that they must think about what they are saying and they do not have to look you in the eye.


Another good idea. There are many questions I have. I will ask for them in a letter. Thank you for taking the time to give such a detailed response and great advice.



Affaircare said:


> This is dead on, 100% correct. You have stood firmly in a HECK of a marital storm and for that I am very proud of you. However, getting her to commit to the relationship does not mean SQUAT unless her actions match her words. Right now, her commitment is about as valuable as the helium that fills a balloon, so if she really is committed she is going to have to demonstrate that through ACTIONS and she's going to have to do those actions voluntarily. If you force her, you're just controlling her; and if she refuses then she is not committed. It's just that simple. It is MORE THAN REASONABLE for you to indicate to her what you would require in order to continue the marriage, but I would caution you to just remember that your boundaries will be fences around YOU and what you will and will not allow in your life, not rules that she "has to live by." !


Great point. I believe that is how I've come across in her mind. Here are the rules you must live by. 



Affaircare said:


> If YOU are going to pay for a phone for her to use, then you will have the passwords and access to her records. Period. If she is going to pay for her own phone that's cool, but as the spouse whom she has already lied to, your boundary would be that you will not be with a person who does not willingly and openly share their phone and access to their phone at all times. That means if she wants to buy her own phone and pay for it, that's cool with you...but your boundary for yourself is that anyone who's going to be a partner with you will be open and transparent about their phone, email, FB, etc.


I refused to re-fill the prepaid phone when it ran out a few days ago. She actually asked me to stop at Wal-Mart and buy a re-fill card. I adamantly refused. Guess what? Mr. OM finally put some skin in the game and re-filled it. I told her the phone has to go. He has the pass words, etc. It was bought specifically for him. It has been only used for him. Now, he has actually put some cash in it. 



Affaircare said:


> Now speaking as a disloyal, this "feels" like your spouse is treating you like a child and snooping on you, but the fact is that part of the cost of her hiding calls from you with COloverbooy and being devious and deceptive is that she now has to be an open book to earn your trust back. Or let me rephrase that. You trust her to be dishonest--100%!! You do not trust her HONESTY! So if she wants you to trust her honesty, she has to BEHAVE honestly and have her words and actions match. She will have to endure the "feeling" of being checked on and behave WELL...and after some time when she says she'll be XYZ and she actually is XYZ then you'll start to trust her honest again, right?


Absolutely. I told her that I can't believe a word that comes out of her mouth. As long as she continues to hide the affair phone and let him keep the passwords, etc. she continues to erode my trust in her. By giving full transparency, she would begin to build some trust back. Right now, she is still eroding it.



Affaircare said:


> And speaking as a disloyal, it will help somewhat if you set a good example and also give her access to your email, phone, FB etc. that it shows her that not only do you hold HER to that standard, but you yourself will be transparent with her and allow her to see the True You. Now, there is no dishonesty for which she should distrust you except that if you have been feeling less than satisfied with the marriage, etc. this is the time to let her in on your personal thoughts the same as you expect her to open up herself to you. I guarantee you she'll say "But I don't want to see your email, phone, FB, etc." but that's too bad. This is a non-negotiable. She's transparent or she's hiding something. Period.


Again, right on track. I have offered all my information. She responded just as you said. Yes, her lack of transparency shouts very loudly that the affair is still on.



Affaircare said:


> Again, I agree except on a very small matter. I believe she should change her number and this is a more-than-reasonable step to take. Ideally it would be best if you two worked as a team and she agreed to change for the sake of the marriage. If she is committed, she'll bite the bullet. If she does not want to change the number (and chances are about 90% she won't) her arguments will likely be "It will be inconvenient to tell my business contacts of the new number" or something silly like that), well that is the cost of her infidelity! If she is really willing to commit, she will do what has to be done to cut the OM out of her life 100%. That's why, on the occasion I will even suggest that if the affair is at work, that people quit their jobs! Because marriages survive periods of unemployment but they DO NOT SURVIVE ongoing adultery!


:iagree: Changing for other contacts is not a valid argument for her. OM and I are the only two that have that number.



Affaircare said:


> "When we married we volunteered to forsake all others and give 100% of our affection and loyalty ONLY TO EACH OTHER. I will not accept anything less than 100%. If you want to give any part of your affection to someone else, or give some of your loyalty to another man, I will not accept that. I will not participate in your choice to give yourself to someone else either. So it's either 100% to me, honoring the vow and what is my due...or you're on your own" And part of what is due to you as her husband, is her affection, her loyalty and the TRUE HER. That means knowing where she is, what she's doing, who she's doing it with, and knowing her real, innermost thoughts and feelings.


Thank you. I will incorporate this into my letter to her today. You won't charge me with plagiarism, will you? lol



Affaircare said:


> Actually I was going to write to you about this too. Just so you know, I am a believing Christian and wanted to explain a few things that seemed to be confusing you. I'll suffice it to say here that God does indeed say that He hates divorce, yet in that same verse (right after that) it says "...so be on your guard so you don't become unfaithful!" [look it up: Malachi 2:16]. What God hates there is someone who BREAKS THEIR COVENANT. Next, unconditional love does not mean "I'll let her get away with anything." Read the book of Hosea (in the Old Testament) and you'll see it's by a prophet who was specifically told by God to marry a hooker and then stay faithful to her. Why? He wanted an example of what it's been like to be God and love us, and yet we were unfaithful and turning to other gods all the time! But the "unconditional" part does not mean that He prevents us from experiencing the consequences of our infidelity (in turning to other gods). Hey one huge consequence is that sin is in the world!! Nope we still have to experience the consequences and they hurt us a LOT...but the "unconditional" part means that IF WE REPENT and turn to Him, He does not turn us away. Same for unfaithful spouses: if they REPENT (which means 180 degrees turning away from their infidelity and changing how they act and think and feel) they still have to experience the consequences of their bad choices (such as, losing their phone, being snooped on, maybe having an STD...) but if they absolutely change, then the loyal one is asked to not turn them away. They have the RIGHT but the very high road would be to not exercise a right you have the ability to exercise! Does that make sense?


Absolutely! I have read Hosea a few times lately. I suppose it is the repent piece I haven't been looking at. She certainly hasn't repented. 



Affaircare said:


> I have one final thought. From this point forward, you and your wife have to move from a confrontational/adversarial way of working to a cooperative/mutual way of working. In other words, move from being competitors to being on the same team. In order to do this you will have to be transparent (meaning "see through") to each other, and you are going to need to practice standing up for yourself in an assertive way. This means being honest and healthy--true to yourself--not being passive and not being abusive to her. Practice stating your truth and standing for it...and then evaluate where you could do better and practice THAT.


I agree. Currently, we are both acting like enemies on the battlefield. We are attached for life, regardless of how the marriage works out. She will always be the mother of my children. I will always be the father of her children. We certainly need to end the adversarial relationship.


Thanks for all of your help.


----------



## Jellybeans

I have to go against the grain in one aspect here... I don't see where she has committed to the marriage. She is still actively involved with OM and still calls him, still wants to see him, still disrespects TN by not ending it.


----------



## twotimeloser

I want to make this clear. and I want to explain this in a way that you will really get the entire picture of.

Now some are going to disagree with but I Will explain why it would be a good idea in YOUR situation, and not in most.

You need to locate that phone. Before you locate it, you should set up a cutting boards and a hammer.

When you locate that phone, you should smash it with a hammer in front of her. and say the following " As part of our commitment to each other, i am committed to helping you where you are weak. This act that I have just done is to support you in YOUR goal of staying committed. If you get another phone, I will find it and continue to smash each phone you buy, in order to help you achieve your goals. That is the best way i can help you"

Now some of you are on the floor right now... but this why it should be done this way...

She will get away with anything you let her get away with... Which has been everything up to this point.

Being that she is aggressive and you are passive, she does not understand your message. If you deal with her in an assertive manner ( a cousin of aggressive) Then she will fully understand you. 

Aggressive people communicate through force. Not physical but through verbal force and symbolic force. They like to hold things over peoples heads and exert authority. This is where you need to be, in order to communicate with her effectively. Passive people avoid and accomidate.. your lack of action on this prepaid phone has been accomidation and that is enabling.

Find the phone and smash it... That is not some ******* advice, it is real advice.


----------



## paramore

I wish I could see the look on her face if you do it Hurt


----------



## HurtinginTN

I agree. I had my hands on it the night she called him last (that I know of). She wanted it back. It is a flip phone and I had a hand on both ends of it. I asked her how many pieces she wants it back in. I should have gone ahead and snapped it right then. Actually, the night she brought it home, I should not have let her in the house with it. I knew it was in her purse. I should have snatched the purse, found the phone, and smashed it. Yes, I have been systematically searching for it again. It will re-surface. Then it will be gone forever.


----------



## Jellybeans

^ And did she call him last night?



twotimeloser said:


> You need to locate that phone. Before you locate it, you should set up a cutting boards and a hammer.
> 
> When you locate that phone, you should smash it with a hammer in front of her. and say the following " As part of our commitment to each other, i am committed to helping you where you are weak. This act that I have just done is to support you in YOUR goal of staying committed. If you get another phone, I will find it and continue to smash each phone you buy, in order to help you achieve your goals. That is the best way i can help you"


Hilarious mental pic. :lol:


----------



## paramore

YAY!!!!! Can you try calling it from your cell? Well, I am guessing she has it on vibrate or off, nevermind.


----------



## WhereAmI

twotimeloser said:


> I want to make this clear. and I want to explain this in a way that you will really get the entire picture of.
> 
> Now some are going to disagree with but I Will explain why it would be a good idea in YOUR situation, and not in most.
> 
> You need to locate that phone. Before you locate it, you should set up a cutting boards and a hammer.
> 
> When you locate that phone, you should smash it with a hammer in front of her. and say the following " As part of our commitment to each other, i am committed to helping you where you are weak. This act that I have just done is to support you in YOUR goal of staying committed. If you get another phone, I will find it and continue to smash each phone you buy, in order to help you achieve your goals. That is the best way i can help you"
> 
> Now some of you are on the floor right now... but this why it should be done this way...
> 
> She will get away with anything you let her get away with... Which has been everything up to this point.
> 
> Being that she is aggressive and you are passive, she does not understand your message. If you deal with her in an assertive manner ( a cousin of aggressive) Then she will fully understand you.
> 
> Aggressive people communicate through force. Not physical but through verbal force and symbolic force. They like to hold things over peoples heads and exert authority. This is where you need to be, in order to communicate with her effectively. Passive people avoid and accomidate.. your lack of action on this prepaid phone has been accomidation and that is enabling.
> 
> Find the phone and smash it... That is not some ******* advice, it is real advice.


I think this sounds like a _great_ idea, but putting it in a glass of water seems less threatening/violent. Smashing things could bite him in the ass if this ends in divorce.


----------



## paramore

I have heard sometimes if you let the phone dry out it can work again though, I do like the snapping it in half since it's a flip phone.


----------



## HurtinginTN

I don't have access to the phone logs. I have been calling it periodically through the days to see if it is on. It goes straight to voice mail if it's off. It rings if it's on. I even put my cell phone in a zip lock bag and took it in the shower with me Saturday night. The kids were gone, I was in the shower, perfect time to call lover boy. I called it several times while I was in the shower and it stayed off.

I suspect she called him when I went to my parents' yesterday. However, she denies it and I don't have a way of knowing at this point. The blatant, in your face, "I'm going to go call him" crap has ended. Until she gives up the phone and passwords, I have to assume that she is still calling him.


----------



## HurtinginTN

I did it. I spent my generous gift on new clothes. I went to the mall, walked through Macy's looking for a cute sales girl but found none. I walked throught the mall (I know. I also think that is a dirty 4 letter word). Joseph A Banks had a 50% off sale. I went in and a sharp dressed gentleman asked me what I was looking for. He was dressed very nicely, so I trusted his suggestions. No, he wasn't gay. He was recently married. He is also a pastor and we had a sort of counselling session during trying on clothes.

He picked out 3 pair of pants and several shirts that all go well together. That should give me plenty of variety to mix and match. I hated spending that much money on clothes for myself. I don't like spending that much money on myself period. However, that was what the gift was given specifically for. I'm sure I could have made it go much further searching clearance racks, etc., but I needed someone that knows what they are doing to help me. Being color blind and fashion blind is not a good combination when picking out clothes.


----------



## twotimeloser

IF you show her logs, and even video footage, it will have ZERO effect.. In her mind, she is doing this WITH your permission, because you have taken no action against it. All you have done is threaten her and taught her that your threats have no consequences.

You need for her to "proverbially" sew her lips shut and SHOW you the changes. Her word is worthless. You need action from her. 

If you locate the phone and smash it with a hammer, you wont wonder if she is calling him. Just do a weekly search for it, hammer in hand. She will not accommodate you Hurt.. She LITERALLY cannot.

It is a proved scientific fact that Aggressive people do not accommodate to resolve conflict. Every college in America teaches this in the first year!! She will not.. under and circumstances.. accommodate your request. you must take the initiative here.


----------



## Wolf359

HurtinginTN said:


> I agree. I had my hands on it the night she called him last (that I know of). She wanted it back. It is a flip phone and I had a hand on both ends of it. I asked her how many pieces she wants it back in. I should have gone ahead and snapped it right then. Actually, the night she brought it home, I should not have let her in the house with it. I knew it was in her purse. I should have snatched the purse, found the phone, and smashed it. Yes, I have been systematically searching for it again. It will re-surface. Then it will be gone forever.


I think she has it on her at all times. In her bra or underwear maybe. Or try looking in the bathroom really well, or in the dirty clothes. Also my wife put her stuff in the spare slot of the computer. Like were the CD-ROM was a long time ago. Or in the side of her chair. What about in her purse, how often do you check it ? Just trying to help!!


----------



## WhereAmI

wolf359 said:


> I think she has it on her at all times. In her bra or underwear maybe. Or try looking in the bathroom really well, or in the dirty clothes. Also my wife put her stuff in the spare slot of the computer. Like were the CD-ROM was a long time ago. Or in the side of her chair. What about in her purse, how often do you check it ? Just trying to help!!


I hide small gifts in my clothes that hang in the closet.


----------



## twotimeloser

Panty drawer for the win. LOL


----------



## the guy

She keeps it close so were would she hide it when she sleeps?

She goes on walks right? mabye outside?

Process of elimination, write down her patterns and when you have a certain pattern consistant always, then follow it and dig.

She will make a mistake and in time it will land in your hands, that easy....it did for me.

I saw the charger light in her pillow case blinking inches from my face...I pulled on the charger cord from under her head, and bamb the shaking and nuasia that all us LS's have felt.


----------



## HurtinginTN

It's somewhere in the bedroom, I believe. It is upstairs, either our bedroom or our son's bedroom. The thing is, does it even matter? If she doesn't give it up willingly along with the passwords, what is the point? If I smash that one, she could easily just get another. It has to come from her. She has to give it up. We had that discussion last night. She needs to give up the phone, passwords, etc. She has to show transparency to build my trust back. Without her willing commitment to do that, the relationship will continue to spiral downhill. The good news is there isn't much hill left. This ride is about over, one way or the other. Either she turns around completely and obligates herself 100% to our marriage, or the big D is coming soon. Even if she turns around at this point, I don't know if either of us has enough gas to get back up that biiiiig hill.

I ironed one of my new shirts this morning. Funny how a new freshly pressed shirt can make a difference. I do feel uplifted. Wonder how much better it will feel when the new pants get back from the alterations? This shirt alone costs more than probably all or at least most of my other shirts in the closet combined. Original price anyway. I did get it all half off.


----------



## HurtinginTN

wolf359 said:


> I think she has it on her at all times. In her bra or underwear maybe.


Well, those would be good hiding places. I haven't been in either one of them for months. lol


----------



## paramore

LOL Hurt, I am sorry, but that above post made me smile.


----------



## Lilyana

Smashin a cell phone isn't going to stop it... she'll keep goin on with this man. And deep down you know it. 

It's like me asking H to remove his OW from his phone, he wouldnt do it, and really would it matter if he did? She would just text him again and BAM hed have her number again. Although.. I am the account holder on our cell phones... i could just have his turned off...


----------



## HurtinginTN

If you are the account holder and have access to the online records, print the logs. You should have records of the texts, phone calls, etc. I don't have access to her online records. You may want to change the passwords if he knows them also. 

Gathering information at this stage is a great idea. He will likely at some point try to convince you that they are "just friends", you're "overreacting", "paranoid", etc. The records apparently don't do much in court, but they will help you to not be snowed under as easily by a lying spouse.


----------



## The 13th_Floor

Why do you still allow your noncommitting wife in your house?


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## HurtinginTN

The 13th_Floor said:


> Why do you still allow your noncommitting wife in your house?


It's half her house. Only divorce or legal separation will get her out.


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## twotimeloser

Let me explain this another way... Smashing the cell phone is not just for the purpose of getting rid of it. 

It is to show her that you are aggressively active in the saving of you marriage. It is a symbolic gesture that says " hey miss thang, see these balls?" Yes she will get another and another, and you can keep swinging away... and if she doesnt RESPOND to that, then you know what you have to do... Take out the curb on trash day. 

Smashing the phone is a message. It isnt a way tio get rid of the phone. LOL 

Besides, if you already know she will keep getting a new one, why are you not posting this from a new apartment?

Just saying.


----------



## gasunrise

Maybe I missed something but does she work? If she doesn't then how does she have money to buy a phone? 

If she is allowed access to the family money you are enabling the affair. If you cut off her access to the family money she'll fuss but .... oh well. She picked her path.


----------



## paramore

This could be a way to go, pay all of the bills yourself, take the checkbook, cancel her checkcard, buy the groceries, we'll see if she can buy a new phone then.


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## HurtinginTN

twotimeloser said:


> Besides, if you already know she will keep getting a new one, why are you not posting this from a new apartment?


I have strongly considered moving out. However, the advice here is to never leave the house.


----------



## HurtinginTN

We were talking last night. She said, "We just don't have feelings for each other anymore." I agreed.

I have been looking at the affair as the problem. The affair is just a symptom of much deeper problems. That just hit me. So what if the affair is truly over or not? Those much deeper problems are still there. 

The question then changes. Instead of "Can I forgive her for her affair and reconcile?" it goes to "Do I even want to be with this woman, regardless of the affair?" Not really. 

Is it worth trying to re-kindle a relationship that is dead? That has been dead for years? We've been more like roommates than lovers for years. I can't remember the last passionate kiss. It's been that long.

It would be so much easier to just start a new relationship with someone else. Someone that hasn't stabbed me in the heart repeatedly. Not just the affair, but the years of rejection, etc.

The pain in my children's eyes is the only thing that makes me want to try. They deserve to have both parents in their lives. Is staying in a loveless marriage good for them? No, I don't think so. Can we build a love-filled marriage? I don't know. It would take both of us working on it. Right now, neither of us is motivated to work on it.


----------



## paramore

You can, but it can't happen until the affair is over, and she is over the fog, and actually willing to try. I think that your motivation would come back when her fog lifts and she looks at you and says, let's give it a go.


----------



## The 13th_Floor

HurtinginTN said:


> We were talking last night. She said, "We just don't have feelings for each other anymore." I agreed.
> 
> I have been looking at the affair as the problem. The affair is just a symptom of much deeper problems. That just hit me. So what if the affair is truly over or not? Those much deeper problems are still there.
> 
> The question then changes. Instead of "Can I forgive her for her affair and reconcile?" it goes to "Do I even want to be with this woman, regardless of the affair?" Not really.
> 
> Is it worth trying to re-kindle a relationship that is dead? That has been dead for years? We've been more like roommates than lovers for years. I can't remember the last passionate kiss. It's been that long.
> 
> It would be so much easier to just start a new relationship with someone else. Someone that hasn't stabbed me in the heart repeatedly. Not just the affair, but the years of rejection, etc.
> 
> The pain in my children's eyes is the only thing that makes me want to try. They deserve to have both parents in their lives. Is staying in a loveless marriage good for them? No, I don't think so. Can we build a love-filled marriage? I don't know. It would take both of us working on it. Right now, neither of us is motivated to work on it.


HurtinginTN - 

Sorry, man, but I don't believe you. I think you still love this woman and would do anything to get her out of the fog and back into your arms. You even said on Lilyana's anniversary post that you put the 180 on hold for the day, bought flowers, no fighting ECT for your own anniversary. Why?

From my perspective in reading your posts, again, I'm sorry for saying this, but the 180 you've pulled is a joke. You can't move out and she won't move out because the house is 50/50. It just seems to me that she so very much has you by the balls. I say this because you're a nice guy, an extremely nice guy who deserves a nice girl that appreciates you. 

Reading that your wife said "we just don't have feelings for each other anymore," really hurt me because I don't think you really agree with her. If you do, it's probably because she forced your love into the ground and burried it and instead of digging your way out and fighting for your marriage, you accepted it, even though you didn't want to. Am I off base here? I'm sorry, but this is just how I'm interpretting your messages.

I'm not saying you should fight for a lost cause, because if you feel you shouldn't then don't. I am, however, telling you that you are "the nice guy," which we all talk about ditching when pulling the 180, but you seem too nice to pull away from that because it seems to me that that's who you are and couldn't change it even if you wanted to. 

I once told my father that after being dumped by a girl for being too nice, I was going to treat my next woman like ****. Well, not ****, but I was going to be my damn self at all times and if she liked me she liked me, if not, **** her. My dad told me this:

"Nice guys may finish last, but they take care of their woman first." Once he told me that, I adopted the "nice ass-hole" approach and florished. Well, florished up to 9 years, but that's another thread... 

I really wish you the best


----------



## HurtinginTN

paramore said:


> I think that your motivation would come back when her fog lifts and she looks at you and says, let's give it a go.


 Yes, it probably would come right back. Can I hold out until then is the question? Will it ever happen? I don't know.



The 13th_Floor said:


> I think you still love this woman and would do anything to get her out of the fog and back into your arms. You even said on Lilyana's anniversary post that you put the 180 on hold for the day, bought flowers, no fighting ECT for your own anniversary. Why?


Yes, I do and I would. That feeling is dwindling very quickly and is very much weaker than it was even a month ago.



The 13th_Floor said:


> It just seems to me that she so very much has you by the balls.


They have been in her possession for a decade or more. Unlike the phone, I have found them. 



The 13th_Floor said:


> Reading that your wife said "we just don't have feelings for each other anymore," really hurt me because I don't think you really agree with her. If you do, it's probably because she forced your love into the ground and burried it and instead of digging your way out and fighting for your marriage, you accepted it, even though you didn't want to. Am I off base here? I'm sorry, but this is just how I'm interpretting your messages.


You are not off base. I suppose that is why part of the 180 is "Do not give up. It ain't over til you say it's over." Perhaps this feeling is a very common feeling. Right now, the grass looks very much greener on the other side of the fence. I'm very tired of eating this garbage in my small enclosure. There is a world full of green grass out there. It would take a whole lot of fertilizer and careful watering to make the grass green in here. Jumping that fence looks more appealing every day.


----------



## paramore

I get that Hurt, totally.


----------



## twotimeloser

To motivate someone to do something, you have to know what they value.

What does she value?


----------



## paramore

evidently that stupid useless phone that is being used to destroy her family.


----------



## twotimeloser

You are dealing with your wife from a critical parent ego state and in response she is communicating with you from a rebellious child ego state. 

Ego states are our perspectives when we communicate with people and they determine the type of response we illicit from the person we are speaking to. 

A critical parent is one that Blames, attacks, criticizes, set limits and takes control. Just like it sounds a critical parent would do... like you are doing.

A Rebellious child is one that is Oppositional, defiant, mischievous and rejects authority. Just like your wife.

sometimes to get to an adult ego state, we must go through other ego states along the way, but ultimately your goal should be to try and communicate with her from an adult ego state.

An adult ego state is one that Listens, observes, is objective, organizes, solves problems. 


My point is that for every Ego state that there is, there is a natural response to that ego state. It is the foundation of communication.

Right now you are not getting any real communication from her and she is not getting any from you. Until you achieve an adult ego state, you will continue to play this cat and mouse game with her. 

It doesn't matter if you save the relationship or not... at this point. Right now you have to be able to lay your cards out and see her cards. Without full disclosure of both your feelings, you will not have sufficient raw data to make an educated decision. 

I am sure most people here will look at your posts and see that your wife is being a child.. " Gimmie my phone!!!" And yes she is being a rebellious child. But you have to realize that you are communicating with her in a manner that encourages that behavior naturally. 

If you change your ego state, and she does not, then you know that she is not emotionally capable of mending this marriage. It may take some therapy for her to get unstuck from her ego state, but if she never does get out of it, then you need to remove yourself from the situation. 


That is my point. 

Read up on transactional analysis and the EGO states. It might help you figure out somethings.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Wow! You hit the nail on the head. I will definitely read up on those. Thank you very much for the information and direction. She is totally rebellious, probably from her strict upbringing. I suppose I have been acting like her father. She played that card many times throughout the affair before I had the proof it was more than "just friends". 

Me: "It isn't right that you are spending so much time with that man. A man and a woman can not spend so much time having fun together and not develop feelings for each other."

Her: "I already have a father."

That sort of conversation happened often over the 7 months leading up to D-Day. I call it D-day, I knew for quite a while before that in my gut. That was just the day she acknowledged it after I confronted her with the proof.

I did think of something this morning. It relates to the "green grass" theory. My front yard is very shady. It only receives some direct sun early in the morning. The Bradford Pear and house shade it the rest of the day. It has been very hard to get grass to grow there. It's basically a big dirt spot.

This weekend, I worked on it a lot. I raked it to remove the debris. I bought dense shade grass seed and starter fertilizer. I spread them over the yard and covered it with straw. I have been watering it both morning and night since.

I still can not see any sprouts. Should I just quit and accept a dirt spot? Should I just sell the house and try with a different yard? Or should I have faith that the grass will grow and become green with the proper care? By continuing to water it morning and night for a couple of weeks or so, I have faith that it will grow.

My marriage is a lot like my front yard. I guess it is a little different, because I can't control the feelings and actions of my wife. However, maybe that is the correlation with the dense shade. With the proper strain of grass and careful nurturing, green grass is possible. 

Your post plays nicely with this thought I was having. My parent attitude is the wrong strain. Perhaps an adult attitude would be the correct strain. Even if it doesn't produce a beautiful green marriage, changing my attitude to a more mature one will produce a beautiful relationship at some point. It may or may not be with my current wife. Either way, by improving myself, I come out the winner.


----------



## HurtinginTN

New evidence. The day after I took the battery, she called him on the home phone for 7 minutes. That was about 12 hours after promising to not call him for a month. I just got the bill. I'll hold on to that little piece for now. Normally, I would call her right now and confront her. Now, I'll just add it to the ever increasing pile of evidence of her lies. That adds to my extremely strong suspicion that the current "no contact for life" agreement is just a "no contact in front of you" agreement.


----------



## paramore

yup, anything you find, keep quiet for sure, don't give her anymore ammo against you dude. She is gonna keep lying and lying and lying, you know that. I am really sorry.


----------



## twotimeloser

HurtinginTN said:


> I did think of something this morning. It relates to the "green grass" theory. My front yard is very shady. It only receives some direct sun early in the morning. The Bradford Pear and house shade it the rest of the day. It has been very hard to get grass to grow there. It's basically a big dirt spot.
> 
> This weekend, I worked on it a lot. I raked it to remove the debris. I bought dense shade grass seed and starter fertilizer. I spread them over the yard and covered it with straw. I have been watering it both morning and night since.
> 
> I still can not see any sprouts. Should I just quit and accept a dirt spot? Should I just sell the house and try with a different yard? Or should I have faith that the grass will grow and become green with the proper care? By continuing to water it morning and night for a couple of weeks or so, I have faith that it will grow.


Maybe you just need to remove the problem.. Maybe you just need to cut down the tree, even if you have become comfortable with it there. 

Believe it or not, people often become comfortable with problems. Just like that big tree, they become close friends in our daily life. We become so used to them there, that we fully integrate some problems into our lives, thinking we really dont need to get rid of them because we have learned to live with them for so long.

No amount of raking, will solve the problem, and if you move, the dirt patch will still be there. Worse yet... if you remember how much you loved that tree, you may end up planting another one in your new home (relationship) and the problems will move with you.

One of these days, when i get some time... i will write a huge post about how to gain your power back, and become the person you always wanted to be. How to find happiness and peace. But that wont be until May 15th or so.. lol


Until then, I have some very direct questions for you Hurt:

1. What is that you want to do, that you are not doing? this can be anything from bowling with a buddy, to getting a new job or going back to school. 


2. What is the one thing that your wife can say to you or do with you, that will make you feel passionate. 

3. What kind of relationship do you want, if you had a magic wand?


That's it. just 3 little questions. Thanks.


----------



## HurtinginTN

twotimeloser said:


> Until then, I have some very direct questions for you Hurt:
> 
> 1. What is that you want to do, that you are not doing? this can be anything from bowling with a buddy, to getting a new job or going back to school.


I'm not much of a bowler. I took the kids last weekend. My score was around 100. I enjoy country dancing. I used to do that alot. I used to go with my wife, but she no longer will do that. There is a new country bar in town that I have been planning on checking out.

I used to go fishing and hunting a lot. This weekend, I am going turkey hunting. I saw a nice old tom this past weekend at my parents' farm, but I didn't have a shotgun with me at the time. I'll go back after him this weekend.

I am very blessed with my job. I make decent money, but my bosses have to be the best ones in the world. They have put up with my head being up my rear for months. Instead of firing me, as I believe they have every right to do, I just received a slight raise. 

I have no desire to go back to school. I have considered it at times, but another piece of paper on the wall doesn't excite me.




twotimeloser said:


> 2. What is the one thing that your wife can say to you or do with you, that will make you feel passionate.


 PG answer? Using the bedroom for more than playing on the computer and sleeping.




twotimeloser said:


> 3. What kind of relationship do you want, if you had a magic wand?


One with plenty of passion. One with plenty of trust. One where both parties work together toward common goals. One where both parties share their thoughts with each other instead of others. One that would be a great model for our children to follow. A long-lasting fulfilling blissful marriage.

Does that exist except for beginning with "Once upon a time. . . "? I suppose that is where the magic wand comes in.


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## joe kidd

Hurt it is amazing how understanding employers and employees can be. I'm a region manager for my job. Not only was my boss understanding but the guys under me were too. In short they covered my a$$ for about 3 mos. I knew there were things I had to do but just didn't care. I found though that once I started to take pride in my work again that spilled over to everything else in my life.


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## twotimeloser

Hurt,

So essentially you feel sexually deprived. I dont think your wife is going to be that person for you at the moment...

I want to focus more on something you have said. 

"One with plenty of passion. One with plenty of trust. One where both parties work together toward common goals. One where both parties share their thoughts with each other instead of others. One that would be a great model for our children to follow. A long-lasting fulfilling blissful marriage."

What you described is rational and reasonable in expectation. You can not rely on a spouse to provide you a source of happiness or to make you feel complete. and she is doing that with the OM. Ideally, you will grow into a complete person without her and then contribute those mature emotions and a fully developed self, to the relationship.

Let's assume that she was not having an affair for a second... On her own, she is not contributing to the relationship much. In fact, she is relying heavily on this other person to complete her, because currently you do not. 

What you find attractive right now, what you have said you want from a marriage is a partner. In business organizations, a partner is defined as someone who contributes to equally to the management of the business, suffers the losses and reaps the benefits. 

What you have now is a limited partner. A person who invested in the business but does not help manage it, reaps the rewards, but loses nothing more than the initial investment.

Make no mistake, a marriage is a business. It cannot survive when you have one person who is not committed to it fully, independently self sufficient and willing to put in the extra hours. 

If your wife was not having an affair, you still have to deal with the fact that she is a leech on your soul. That she is not a good partner to make a lifetime commitment to. If you do decide to work ont he marriage, remember that the trust and affair are are not the only things you need fixed. 

you could save your marriage today, and wake up 5 years from now to realize that you have made a really bad investment. 

Something to consider.


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## HurtinginTN

I do believe the affair is over. I went drinking with my brother-in-law last night. She has talked to her sister several times lately. She told her sister it was over and she can't understand why I'm not happy with that. She aslo told our daughter that it was over. She has lied to me consistently, but I don't believe she would lie to our daughter and her sister that it is over.

Of course, I am still not completely convinced. About 75%, I would say. You are right about the problems running much deeper than the affair. We had our biggest fight to date last night. It was not related to the affair. I slept in a hotel room last night. There was no physical violence, but the words were biting in both directions. I got the "I don't need a father" speech again because of her playing games and chatting online. She was talking to another man who asked where she lives. She told him and he was asking more details as to the location.

I pulled the modem and told her she don't need to be chatting with any men period. She said she was just having polite conversation. I told her polite conversation doesn't require telling a man where you live, especially considering our past nine months.

I agree about the partnership, or lack thereof. Even with the affair over, there are still many issues that may or may not be resolvable.


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## Eli-Zor

> She has lied to me consistently, but I don't believe she would lie to our daughter and her sister that it is over.
> 
> Of course, I am still not completely convinced


Stay unconvinced, if it were over she would give you the phone and the pass code and do everything to evidence it is over, do not believe her they have more than likely worked out another way to go deeper underground.

Keep control and focus on making yourself a better person, you will then have the choice of what you want to do next.


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## pidge70

I know how desperately you want to believe her but, did she not just call him from your home phone? Until she relinquishes her passwords and becomes completely transparent, I would not believe a thing she says.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mrs Chai

HurtinginTN said:


> I
> I pulled the modem and told her she don't need to be chatting with any men period. She said she was just having polite conversation. I told her polite conversation doesn't require telling a man where you live, especially considering our past nine months.


Why not cut internet off completely as she seems to have an addiction to getting attention from men online. I remember in my younger days I had some sort of sick thrill from having male internet users hitting on me. I grew out of it, but it looks like your wife is still getting her jollies off on it. 

As she can not responsibly use the internet, I'd say it's time to get rid of it. If you must have it for work purposes, password it and don't let her use it.

Does she work? If she pitches a fit over it, tell her you refuse to fund her addiction and if she takes steps to continue to get at her drug of choice instead of fixing the issues that stem from it... well we'll have to cross that hurdle when we get there.


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## Mrs Chai

HurtinginTN said:


> I do believe the affair is over. I went drinking with my brother-in-law last night. She has talked to her sister several times lately. She told her sister it was over and she can't understand why I'm not happy with that. She aslo told our daughter that it was over. She has lied to me consistently, but I don't believe she would lie to our daughter and her sister that it is over.
> 
> Of course, I am still not completely convinced. About 75%, I would say. You are right about the problems running much deeper than the affair. We had our biggest fight to date last night. It was not related to the affair. I slept in a hotel room last night. There was no physical violence, but the words were biting in both directions. I got the "I don't need a father" speech again because of her playing games and chatting online.



You're smart in not believing her and her going to her sister and daughter doesn't prove a thing. I have a term I use with some of my family, probably the most familiar way to put it is "Delusional." I have several of them who like to r_ewrite history_ or _time paradox_ things as I jokingly reference them to my husband.

They rewrite history in their heads, even if it becomes an outright lie, because they simply cannot handle the truth. And the lengths they go is amazing. Especially if they no longer want to be the one at fault. There can be witnesses as to what actually happened and _they will insist you and those other people are wrong._

Why is she going to the two people who will actually get back to you with their conversation? Because she knows you'll hear about it from them and maybe, in her mind, that will get you to believe what she wants you to believe (and maybe what she herself is trying to believe). Everyone is right, until there is total transparency and she takes responsibility for her actions, there is no trust here and the affair still isn't over. Coveting another man - even in your mind - is still an act of an affair. 

And why is she telling your daughter this? That didn't sit well with me when I read that...

As for the fight, I'm sure some of it stemmed from the affair. I mean, this is a life altering choice she made. You still have no trust with her and clearly she's still having a chip on the shoulder that doesn't seem to be getting worked on at all. Are you guys going to do marriage counseling? Or even individual counseling?


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## paramore

amen is all i have to say.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

Brother,

Outside of trying to reason with my fogged wife, you are probably the most frustrating person I've ever interacted with. You seem to be a nice guy, and you actually seem to be intelligent, thoughtfull and reasonably receptive at times...

but you just can't get the f*uck outta your own way, and your head is so far up your as$ at times it's maddening.

lol.

Nothing has changed. (and seriously dude, why the F would it?)
She is managing you. Affair is NOT over, paused perhaps, managing you has become her priority. Your in the way... your fu*cking up her grand laid plans and putting glitches in her fantasy scenario... She has to get you "back in line".


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## Jellybeans

She is still playing you.


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## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> Stay unconvinced, if it were over she would give you the phone and the pass code and do everything to evidence it is over, do not believe her they have more than likely worked out another way to go deeper underground.


Yes, that is most likely what is going on. 



pidge70 said:


> I know how desperately you want to believe her but, did she not just call him from your home phone? Until she relinquishes her passwords and becomes completely transparent, I would not believe a thing she says.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I recently found the call on the home phone. It was from April 5th, before this last "promise" of no contact.



Mrs Chai said:


> You're smart in not believing her and her going to her sister and daughter doesn't prove a thing.
> 
> Why is she going to the two people who will actually get back to you with their conversation? Because she knows you'll hear about it from them and maybe, in her mind, that will get you to believe what she wants you to believe (and maybe what she herself is trying to believe). Everyone is right, until there is total transparency and she takes responsibility for her actions, there is no trust here and the affair still isn't over. Coveting another man - even in your mind - is still an act of an affair.
> 
> And why is she telling your daughter this? That didn't sit well with me when I read that...
> 
> Are you guys going to do marriage counseling? Or even individual counseling?


My daughter has hounded her to quit from the time she found out. It is possible she told her to get our daughter off her back. As far as my sister-in-law, I don't think she thought that conversation would get back to me. I sat down with my sister-in-law today for a while and talked. She is convinced the affair is over, but also pointed out that is not the real issue. The real issue is the deeper problems that caused the affair. I believe the affair is just a symptom of deeper problems, a very painful symptom.

I have offered marriage counselling several times, but she refuses. It has to come from her. I am going to individual counselling. She has been going to individual counselling as well.



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Brother,
> 
> Outside of trying to reason with my fogged wife, you are probably the most frustrating person I've ever interacted with. You seem to be a nice guy, and you actually seem to be intelligent, thoughtfull and reasonably receptive at times...
> 
> but you just can't get the f*uck outta your own way, and your head is so far up your as$ at times it's maddening.
> 
> lol.
> 
> Nothing has changed. (and seriously dude, why the F would it?)
> She is managing you. Affair is NOT over, paused perhaps, managing you has become her priority. Your in the way... your fu*cking up her grand laid plans and putting glitches in her fantasy scenario... She has to get you "back in line".


Yes, I believe paused is a very possible scenario. IF there has been no contact, it has been for 1 of 2 reasons, in my mind. 1 is as you say, it is on pause to get me under control. 2 is that she didn't like the way he looked. The night I told her either the affair is over or we are over, she admitted to recently seeing his picture. Since looks have been such an important thing for her, she may have wanted to leave him after seeing his picture. My insistence on ending one of her relationships gave her the out she was looking for.

Either way, even IF it was over, it doesn't matter. The total disrespect and selfishness is still there.

By the way, I did start reading your thread. I haven't read all of it, but the first few pages were dead on with my situation as well. You mentioned that your wife "cringed" when you touched her. I don't think I ever posted that in my thread, but that was the exact word she has used several times over the years.


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## HurtinginTN

I am obsessed with that darn phone. I bring it up daily. I tell her it would be so easy to just give it up and give me the passwords. That would be a great start to re-building trust. However, she insists that she "needs" something that is her own. Yes, I know, that is most likely an excuse. 

For my sanity, I have to stop obsessing. I have to drop it. Fighting constantly over the darn phone is no good. How do I stop obsessing?

I suspect it will come to the surface in a few weeks. We will be getting another vehicle. I signed up for a motorcycle class at the end of the month. I am searching for a motorcycle with the intent to buy one in the next couple of weeks. She said she would like to go to the class also. We are both going to spend the weekend together at the class. 

That has 2 possibilities. It could a new, exciting thing we can do together. Right now, we will just be buying one motorcycle, but my father-in-law has one we could use to go on bike rides together.

Of course, the other possibility is that she'll take off on it to Colorado.


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## Jellybeans

TN. I am not sure there is much else that can be said, unfortunately.

You already know what the score is--she refuses to be transparent with you, which isn't conducive to restoring your marriage.

As for obsessing--I am afraid you are always going to obsess as long as she isn't being open and honest with you. And as far as your posts tell--she hasn't chosen to give up the OM, the phone, and most importantly, her affair. 

*It is a choice.* And she continually chooses the affair along w/ having your marriage because she has that option. You have tolerated it so she goes with it. And why not? Honestly? She gets to have a loving, caring, stable husband and father of her children at home, and gets to have her ego fed by this Phantom Anonymous Poker Man online. 

Motorcycle purchases, taking classes together, visiting your FIL and other family members, Colorado-bound or not--the facts don't change--she is still having an affair. 

You have an open marriage. 

Remove yourself as an option. She will never know what life is like w/o you as long as you hold her hand while she speaks to her lover on the phone, which is, in essence, what you are doing.

*Women cannot and will not love a man they don't respect. * Remember that always. 

You need to start respecting yourself and putting the kabosh on this BS, which is, quite frankly, what it is. Stop letting her pull the strings on your puppet heart. This isn't about FEELINGS anymore--this is about you finding your dignity, being a man, and stop being a doormat.

My friend has a good saying: Don't let someone walk all over you just because you have FEELINGS for them.

The choice is yours: continue doing "more of the same" and spoon feed her whatever flavor of cake she most enjoys or standing up for yourself and saying "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore" and *doing* something about it.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

HurtinginTN said:


> I sat down with my sister-in-law today for a while and talked. She is convinced the affair is over, but also pointed out that is not the real issue. The real issue is the deeper problems that caused the affair.


No, it's not the real issue. The "real issue" and ONLY issue right now is that you wife is having an affair... 

Yes, your "home" has a unstable foundation. yes, it needs a new roof. yes, it could use a paint job and new flooring but the issue is the damn thing is ON FIRE!!! Until you put out the fire nothing else matters. 




HurtinginTN said:


> By the way, I did start reading your thread. I haven't read all of it, but the first few pages were dead on with my situation as well.


Keep reading when you have a chance, ask anything you like.


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## pidge70

Of course she needs the phone, it's her way to communicate with him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Keep reading when you have a chance, ask anything you like.


Wow, I see why you relate. I could have written most of your thread myself. I'm currently on page 4, will read more later. At that stage, the only difference is that my wife's family is more agreeable with me than your in-laws were.


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## turnera

How long do you intend to accept such treatment without finding a boundary?


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## turnera

PS. People (not just you, Hurting), when you start a new thread, please let people watching your old thread know, back on THAT thread! We may never know you've moved!


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## KathyGriffinFan

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Brother,
> 
> Outside of trying to reason with my fogged wife, you are probably the most frustrating person I've ever interacted with. You seem to be a nice guy, and you actually seem to be intelligent, thoughtfull and reasonably receptive at times...
> 
> but you just can't get the f*uck outta your own way, and your head is so far up your as$ at times it's maddening.
> 
> lol.
> 
> Nothing has changed. (and seriously dude, why the F would it?)
> She is managing you. Affair is NOT over, paused perhaps, managing you has become her priority. Your in the way... your fu*cking up her grand laid plans and putting glitches in her fantasy scenario... She has to get you "back in line".


:iagree:
I totally agree! I read the previous thread, all of it, all 31 pages and I was getting more and more frustrated page by page.


----------



## KathyGriffinFan

HurtinginTN said:


> I am obsessed with that darn phone. I bring it up daily. I tell her it would be so easy to just give it up and give me the passwords. That would be a great start to re-building trust. However, she insists that she "needs" something that is her own. Yes, I know, that is most likely an excuse.
> 
> For my sanity, I have to stop obsessing. I have to drop it. Fighting constantly over the darn phone is no good. How do I stop obsessing?
> 
> I suspect it will come to the surface in a few weeks. * We will be getting another vehicle*. I signed up for a motorcycle class at the end of the month. I am searching for a motorcycle with the intent to buy one in the next couple of weeks. She said she would like to go to the class also. *We are both going to spend the weekend together at the class.*
> 
> That has 2 possibilities. It could a new, exciting thing we can do together. _*Right now, we will just be buying one motorcycle,*_ but my father-in-law has one we could use to go on bike rides together.
> 
> Of course, the other possibility is that she'll take off on it to Colorado.


Are you serious? You're really talking about "we"?? "Right now we will just be buying one." No sir, YOU WILL BE BUYING ONE, all the while your adulterous wife is using you.

What do you mean we? Do you not get what she's done? What she continues to do? The lack of respect that she has for you? The inevitable blow up and continued hostility that will be impossible to contain, before it spews out in front of the kids (if it hasn't already).

Stop using these excuses and OWN the direction you are heading. With all due respect, you're being wish-washy. In one paragraph, you're acknowledging the marriage being over and the probability that she will continue to lie to you, but now you're talking about giving her another avenue to visit her lover/man/whatever you wanna call him. Whyyyyyy? Don't take her with you for that. If you're interested in getting a M1 license, do it for yourself on your own. *Don't reward the adulterous wife.*

Where is the smiley that shows the head smashing against the wall? That is how I feel reading this, lol. No disrespect TN, I'm on your side, but if my brother or sister came to me with this, at some point I would wash my hands of them in regards to this problem, because it's emotionally draining to stand idly by as someone you love/care about is treated so badly...and they tolerate it and even ask for more and put themselves in the position of receiving more pain.

I truly believe that it boils down to you not wanting to let her go. You refuse to even separate from her. She's mean, rude, disrespectful and you two have so many issues to begin working on together but she has not even begun to be honest.

You made a point to say that she told some relatives that the affair was over. IMHO, without knowing her, it's common sense to say that. She doesn't wanna be the bad guy in the eyes of others. You're the awful husband that drove her to this (in her mind).

I feel like you're a good guy, and that is why it is so damn frustrating to read this. You're being used and abused, you're being treated like a doormat and you keep running back for more and asking for more punishment. It's almost as if you don't wanna bite the bullet.


You can separate, you probably have facilities in your local county that will assist you with separation papers. I don't believe you want to bite the bullet. Are you afraid that the relationship your wife might still have with this dude, will become physical? Maybe you're just afraid that if it does become physical, it will seal the deal that you seem to be in denial about. Maybe you're just too darn afraid to realize this. It would hurt too much.

Good luck TN, I really am pulling for you, but I agree with "Pit" that you just can't get out of your own way. You refuse to accept things and keep being angered at new evidence, but then you don't follow through with threats and ultimatums, and then you're on to find the next piece of evidence and the cycle repeats. Nothing changes. I cannot even fathom what your wife is thinking. 
PA's and EA's are one thing, but when you have to deal with your spouse continuing the EA right in front of you, throwing it in your face, consistently lying, and putting you through so much pain...either she has emotional problems or she just doesn't love you and is using you.


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## twotimeloser

Hurt,

People can tell you to "man up" all you want. but in the end, you have to take the steps and youhave to deal with the backlash. WE GET THAT.

After reading all yur posts and seeing you walk in the same circle, wearing a hole in the carpet... I can only say to youthat nothing will get better in your life until you take those steps. 

If you want to suffer, then that is on you. We are all responsible for two things in our lives... Our happiness and our suffering. You are crushing your happiness and amplifying your suffering exponentially. 

You know this already, but have chosen to take no action. 

If you become a man and lay the law down, you risk nothing. Because you have nothing to risk right now. Your marriage is effectively over at this very moment. 

It takes a strong man to leave, and a stronger man to stay, at this point, I only hope that reach a level of strength to leave. 

I dont know what happened to make you so afraid, but whatever it is, I pray that it is worth your suffering.


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## KathyGriffinFan

HurtinginTN said:


> I do believe the affair is over. I went drinking with my brother-in-law last night. She has talked to her sister several times lately. She told her sister it was over and she can't understand why I'm not happy with that. She aslo told our daughter that it was over. She has lied to me consistently, but I don't believe she would lie to our daughter and her sister that it is over.
> 
> Of course, I am still not completely convinced. About 75%, I would say. You are right about the problems running much deeper than the affair. We had our biggest fight to date last night. It was not related to the affair. I slept in a hotel room last night. There was no physical violence, but the words were biting in both directions. I got the "I don't need a father" speech again because of her playing games and chatting online. *She was talking to another man who asked where she lives. She told him and he was asking more details as to the location.
> *
> I pulled the modem and told her she don't need to be chatting with any men period. She said she was just having polite conversation. I told her polite conversation doesn't require telling a man where you live, especially considering our past nine months.
> 
> I agree about the partnership, or lack thereof. Even with the affair over, there are still many issues that may or may not be resolvable.


Not only is that inappropriate, it's reckless and dangerous. I would be wary of every man she connects with through use of the internet. Perhaps this is her escapism, as you commented that she doesn't leave the house too often.
And why should she? You're at her beck-and-call, and she has her fantasy world at the tip of her fingers.
I would tell you to stop enabling her, but you've been told that a million times already.


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## HurtinginTN

Yes, my smog has been as bad as, if not worse than, my wife's fog. There are small glimmers of clarity of thought, but most of the the past couple of months I haven't been able to see my hand in front of my face for the smog. The smog is dissipating.

This whole thing hit me like a ton of bricks. Going back and re-reading my posts, I want to reach through the computer screen and shake myself. Pit of my stomach, I see especially why you get so frustrated with me. It looks like you went through the same thing, to some extent. The wanting to believe her, etc.

I don't want to let her go. That is true. There are many reasons. At times, the only reason is my very strong belief that our wonderful children deserve to have both of their parents in their lives. Not just staying married for the sake of the kids, but developing a wonderful marriage for the sake of the kids. I firmly believe that how our marriage works out will very likely be the way my children's marriages work out. 

I fully understand that takes two. I also fully understand I have played a major part in how horrible our marriage is at this point. Both before the affair started and my actions (inactions) the past couple of months. I know I have made and continue to make plenty of mistakes. However, the smog is very slowly dissipating and clarity of mind is growing.

Part of the 180 is to not talk about the relationship or future. That is one area I have fallen short on consistently. Last night, I was able to refrain from any talk at all about the current or future status of our relationship. As Eli-Zor pointed out one time, I do have two distinct advantages. One is the distance between her and the other man. The other is our three kids. Regardless of what she thinks of me as a husband, she does know and admit that I am a good father to our children.

We have a date for Saturday night, sort of. There is a cool band playing at a local winery that we are the 2 biggest fans of. Our kids all take music lessons. Their teacher is playing at the winery. He has invited them to come play some songs with him. I told them I was going from the beginning. I asked her last night if she was planning on going to be polite. I fully expected her to say no. She said she is planning on it. 

As far as the motorcycle, I am doing that for me. The first reason for that is the ever-increasing price of gas and my long commute to work. I'll save a few hundred dollars per month on gas alone. Also, I think it will be very fun. When she expressed interest in also going to the class, I readily offered to pay for her class as well. It will be fun to take the class together. 

Regardless of how our marriage ends up, we need to develop a respectful, peaceful relationship. We are tied together for life as the parents of those kids. Birthdays, weddings, visitation, etc. will always keep our relationship open, regardless of whether that is as spouses or not. I can't control her thoughts or actions, but I can work on mine. I will continue to do so.


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## Jellybeans

TN, you may have played a major part in the "horrible" marriage but she is single-handedly destroying it by being involved in an active affair AND also now hitting up other men on the internet as well.

I wish you good luck. Cause nothing is going to change unless you take a stand.


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## avenrandom

I've been following both threads... My thoughts are the same. People have been giving you advice and insight for quite some time, but you are still stuck in your ways, blinded by love/whatever into still being strewn along by this woman. To me, this hardly sounds like love, it sounds like infatuation.

If you think this is just a problem with the forum though, I'd suggest you re-examine a bit. Your "I hear you but..." attitude is something she WILL see, WILL notice, and WILL exploit. She will see you don't have the willpower to change, to stand up for yourself, and to fight for your marriage, and as such, she will continue to walk all over you. Standing up for yourself once or twice is not enough, as there needs to be a pattern for her subconscious to pick up on it. Your indecision, this "smog" will be your downfall and you will continue to be hurt until you decide to do this for yourself.


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## turnera

Let me get this straight. 

She is surfing the web and chatting up men on the web in YOUR house in front of YOU?

And you just sit there and let her?


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## paramore

turn off the internet Hurt....take away all access to your money, you buy the groceries, put gas in, she should be home schooling the kids anyways, there are other things to do than play card games on the internet, or better yet put a password lock on the computer that you only know. Whether you pw lock it or shut it off, then there you go, she can't play games with him or anyone else. Find her phone, destroy it, and since you will have taken away access to the money, she'd have a heck of a time getting a new one. I just finally stood up to hubby other night, it is taking me a bit like you, but you can do it, come on man I am rooting for you.


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## turnera

paramore said:


> turn off the internet Hurt....take away all access to your money, you buy the groceries, put gas in, she should be home schooling the kids anyways, there are other things to do than play card games on the internet, or better yet put a password lock on the computer that you only know. Whether you pw lock it or shut it off, then there you go, she can't play games with him or anyone else. Find her phone, destroy it, and since you will have taken away access to the money, she'd have a heck of a time getting a new one. I just finally stood up to hubby other night, it is taking me a bit like you, but you can do it, come on man I am rooting for you.


 Yep.


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## Eli-Zor

You are failing to be consistent in your behaviours, when you take the Internet away you do so permanently , if and when you require access you connect it, immediately after you have finished shut it down again. Focus on losing weight , looking and being attractive , keep your children close to you and enact your plan. Do not hesitate to act out on your end goal, the 180 will strengthen you, plan A is you being loving, not a doormat. I suggested some time ago you register your children to go to school, this and other components of the plan are for you to get control of your family and your destiny. Untill she gives you full access to everything and practices radical honesty with a commitment to you and your marriage assume she is in an affair. 

I despair when I read your your posts as you are hoping and being gullible , your marriage is over and will remain so untill she reengages. In the meantime sort your life out with the intention of moving on without her, plan plan plan and do not even think of playing nice with her if a divorce process starts. 

Secure monies and do not let her know what you are doing. Focus and stay on course.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## paramore

shoot hurt, give me your acct info and provider and I will cancel it for you, lol.


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## Jellybeans

I think destroying the phone is moot, actually. Casue she will just find the men on the internet anyway as she always does.

He could try it but not sure it'd help.

Anyway, everyone is offering the same advice over and over, TN:

Put your foot down by *doing* something about it or keep holding onto your open marriage with all your might.


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## paramore

that's why I suggested he shut off the internet, hence no way to meet men, and perhaps to ask people that you are close and related to not to allow her on their computer if for some reason she happens to come over to someones house and asks if she can use their computer.


----------



## KathyGriffinFan

HurtinginTN said:


> Yes, my smog has been as bad as, if not worse than, my wife's fog. There are small glimmers of clarity of thought, but most of the the past couple of months I haven't been able to see my hand in front of my face for the smog. The smog is dissipating.
> 
> This whole thing hit me like a ton of bricks. Going back and re-reading my posts, I want to reach through the computer screen and shake myself. Pit of my stomach, I see especially why you get so frustrated with me. It looks like you went through the same thing, to some extent. The wanting to believe her, etc.
> 
> I don't want to let her go. That is true. There are many reasons. At times, the only reason is my very strong belief that our wonderful children deserve to have both of their parents in their lives. Not just staying married for the sake of the kids, but developing a wonderful marriage for the sake of the kids. I firmly believe that how our marriage works out will very likely be the way my children's marriages work out.
> 
> I fully understand that takes two. I also fully understand I have played a major part in how horrible our marriage is at this point. Both before the affair started and my actions (inactions) the past couple of months. I know I have made and continue to make plenty of mistakes. However, the smog is very slowly dissipating and clarity of mind is growing.
> 
> Part of the 180 is to not talk about the relationship or future. That is one area I have fallen short on consistently. Last night, I was able to refrain from any talk at all about the current or future status of our relationship. As Eli-Zor pointed out one time, I do have two distinct advantages. One is the distance between her and the other man. The other is our three kids. Regardless of what she thinks of me as a husband, she does know and admit that I am a good father to our children.
> 
> We have a date for Saturday night, sort of. There is a cool band playing at a local winery that we are the 2 biggest fans of. Our kids all take music lessons. Their teacher is playing at the winery. He has invited them to come play some songs with him. I told them I was going from the beginning. I asked her last night if she was planning on going to be polite. I fully expected her to say no. She said she is planning on it.
> 
> As far as the motorcycle, I am doing that for me. The first reason for that is the ever-increasing price of gas and my long commute to work. I'll save a few hundred dollars per month on gas alone. Also, I think it will be very fun. When she expressed interest in also going to the class, I readily offered to pay for her class as well. It will be fun to take the class together.
> 
> Regardless of how our marriage ends up, we need to develop a respectful, peaceful relationship. We are tied together for life as the parents of those kids. Birthdays, weddings, visitation, etc. will always keep our relationship open, regardless of whether that is as spouses or not. I can't control her thoughts or actions, but I can work on mine. I will continue to do so.


TN, the only reason I commented on the motorcycle issue is because you brought up that she might use it as an avenue to explore other options in regards to her transportation problems in visiting this other guy.

At this point, you don't even know if she will be polite at a club together, yet you have made arrangements to pay for a weekend motorcycle class. I just don't follow the logic. Coupled with the fact that it is already in your mind that she may use this to obtain a license to visit this guy, whether you were just being sarcastic or not, I just don't see the upside.

It sounds as if you've already made up your mind, you're going to stick with her and become her doormat. Hey, more power to you if you have the cojones to admit it. At least you'll be owning up to you.

From a womans perspective, well from _any_ perspective, she has no respect for you. Everyone else has said it on here a million and a half times, she does not respect you and what you do for your family. She has it made, she's at home while you're out supporting the family, you do the errands, and she gets to live out her fantasy land on the internet. The only draw back is that once in a while she'll get caught by you and have to deal with your reaction to it. Small price to pay to have everything you want in the palm of your hand. 

It's your vehicle in your name, but you've allowed her to drive it, knowing she'll call her lover.

You've had temper tantrums and hid the modem but haven't disconnected the problem (the internet).

She is so disrespectful, she'll buy a pre-paid phone to call this guy, and when no other option is available, she'll call from the home phone that you pay for.

She has no job but is talking to this man, right in front of you, yet you keep supporting her. 

You don't even know if she can be polite to you for an evening at a club listening to music, but you'll invest in a weekend motorcycle class for the two of you, paid with your money. The idea of her using the license to visit this guy is already in the back of your mind, joking or not.

She's already had inappropriate chats with another man, indicating where she lived but stopped before it could go any further by YOU.

Her lack of sympathy, remorse and the incessant lying are disturbing.

What foundation are you building for the future? You two haven't even begun to deal with this. Where is the honesty and transparency?

A few months ago, I suspected my husband of having an EA. The OW was open to the prospect of having a romantic relationship with him, and for a second I thought about staying with him, just to prevent the possibility of him dating her. But there was not a drop of sense in that, and that is no way to live. I did not want to be with a man that I did not trust, just to prevent him from being with someone he wanted to be with. That life was not for me. Thankfully with further investigation, it turned out that he was not having an EA. 

Obviously it is your life, you have a overwhelming portion of individuals on this thread saying the same thing to you. We can all scream it from the heavens but the rest is up to you. I would never judge someone for returning to their cheating spouse; marriages are too complex.

That being said, if you're going to continue down this road in hopes of reconciliation, you have to do it in a healthy way in order to build a foundation to restoring your marriage. I just don't see where you've even begun to do this. Building a foundation may include a trial separation. Yes you love her, we get that. You wanna be the good guy in this, but there is a fine line between being a good supportive husband, and a door mat. I truly believe that it is the latter.

The only thing she hasn't done has consummated her relationship with this man. Yet. Would you tolerate her having sex with this man in your house? I wonder. You've put up with much already and still have managed to allow her to continue trampling all over you.

Your wife sounds like a child and you, her parent. She's a kid in a candy store and she's stealing, and the only lesson she has learned is that once in a while she'll get a stern talking to. Little price to pay to have the candy store at your finger tips. Hardly enough punishment to teach her that she needs to stop doing it.


----------



## KathyGriffinFan

Jellybeans said:


> Anyway, everyone is offering the same advice over and over, TN:
> 
> Put your foot down by *doing* something about it or keep holding onto your open marriage with all your might.


:iagree: Open marriage is right.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> Focus on losing weight , looking and being attractive , keep your children close to you and enact your plan.
> 
> I suggested some time ago you register your children to go to school.
> 
> Untill she gives you full access to everything and practices radical honesty with a commitment to you and your marriage assume she is in an affair.
> 
> I despair when I read your your posts as you are hoping and being gullible , your marriage is over and will remain so untill she reengages. In the meantime sort your life out with the intention of moving on without her, plan plan plan and do not even think of playing nice with her if a divorce process starts.
> 
> Secure monies and do not let her know what you are doing. Focus and stay on course.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree: Working out, new clothes, more time with the kids, etc. are consistent.

I decided to let them ride out this school year at home. It was already spring break when you suggested that. They will be registered for next school year.

I agree that her failure to give up the phone confirms that the affair is still active. It's nowhere near as active as it was, since she has to keep it hidden from me and the kids, who are almost always with her. 

I don't mis-interpret our "date" for Saturday night as hope in my marriage. We will ride together to both watch our children perform. 

There are many changes going on to become more independent. As the strength in my biceps is growing from the workouts, so is my inner strength. Today has been my most productive day at work in a long time. 

I have seen there are many fish in the sea lately. I've not even realized I was in a sea for years, much less noticed the other fish. There are quite a few fish out there actually that are interested in the bait on my hook. This weekend, there were several nibbles. I wasn't looking to catch a fish, just have a good time (not in a 1-night stand kind of way. A drink some beer with friends and listen to a good band way.) However, the nibbles were encouraging. I'm not looking to go fishing any time soon. However, my desperation to save this marriage is quickly diminishing.


----------



## KathyGriffinFan

HurtinginTN said:


> :iagree: Working out, new clothes, more time with the kids, etc. are consistent.
> 
> I decided to let them ride out this school year at home. It was already spring break when you suggested that. They will be registered for next school year.
> 
> I agree that her failure to give up the phone confirms that the affair is still active. It's nowhere near as active as it was, since she has to keep it hidden from me and the kids, who are almost always with her.
> 
> I don't mis-interpret our "date" for Saturday night as hope in my marriage. We will ride together to both watch our children perform.
> 
> There are many changes going on to become more independent. As the strength in my biceps is growing from the workouts, so is my inner strength. Today has been my most productive day at work in a long time.
> 
> I have seen there are many fish in the sea lately. I've not even realized I was in a sea for years, much less noticed the other fish. There are quite a few fish out there actually that are interested in the bait on my hook. This weekend, there were several nibbles. I wasn't looking to catch a fish, just have a good time (not in a 1-night stand kind of way. A drink some beer with friends and listen to a good band way.) However, the nibbles were encouraging. I'm not looking to go fishing any time soon. However, my desperation to save this marriage is quickly diminishing.


I'm sorry but I have to say this. Well, first let me preface that by saying you continue to stick to the general theme in all your statements, so much so that it seems kind of...maybe fake is the word? I apologize for being too harsh.
You echo the same message over and over. 
You talk about working on yourself physically, you talk about not having hope that something will save the marriage, and then you finish with the "my hope for saving this marriage is diminishing quickly." Ummm, how long has this been going on? I thought I read 9 months. I guess it hasn't been diminishing _that_ quickly, since you've been saying that time and time again.

You've made excuses for your inaction. And let me say that there is another thread on here similar to yours, so if I get the details confused, I apologize. Back to my initial point, you've made excuses for not installing the key logger. You made excuses for not turning off the internet. You made excuses for filing for separation. You've basically made all the excuses for taking a stand.

To be brutally honest with you, I would have loved to have had been with someone like you during my serial-cheating days. I could of cheated all night long, knowing that I could throw anything at you and you would still stay. Maybe sometimes you'll throw a temper tantrum and have a hissy fit and throw my clothes around, but I know you'll be a little puppy dog and help me pick them up. I would know that I could do and say anything I want and blame you for it, and you'd never even separate from me. Heck, I wouldn't even have to work because I would be with someone who would tolerate my cheating but continue to support me and my habit. Gotta luv it. The person that would allow me to do this, I would have no respect for. Yeah, if he whined enough I might say that the EA ended and maybe it did...with him. Through this though, I would have learned that my husband does not follow through with threats/ultimatums. I would have learned that with the way my husband thinks (that being a good husband is allowing one self to be walked over and continue to support that person with no boundaries, or emphasis on changing, or even being honest), I can get away with anything because he'll always be there, ready and waiting to help me. Yes, that's how good of a man he is and while he would make a perfect hubby for someone that deserves him, I do not (deserve him). So I take advantage of him. In a normal relationship, a supportive hubby is a good thing but when you're in a relationship with a cheater, there has to be a line drawn in the sand. But hey, I know he'll never enforce that line...or any of the million of the other things that he said I couldn't do or he'd leave me- and that I did anyway, and he still stayed.

You're a puppy dog. Heck, I'm losing respect for you. Imagine her? 

But hey, you've been told that by practically everyone here yet you continue.

This nonsense about the fish in the sea is just a story, almost as if you're trying to fake yourself into believing it. It sounds like something I would have wrote during my senior year of high school. It sounds a lil' contrived...I'm not saying that it didn't happen, I mean contrived that you're trying to force yourself to believe that and have us believe that you're at a breaking point.
I would much rather hear you be blunt about where you stand. "Look guys, my wife treats me like crap and she has paraded this EA in front of me for 9 months but I cannot leave her. I don't want to make excuses, or say I'm doing this for the kids because I'm doing it for me.
I. Cannot. Leave. Her."

There, end of story. Gosh, whatever you do, just freakin' own it already. These stories you attempt to pass off are just to pacify a group of people that you don't even know. We can tell you that you are a doormat but you are not going to listen, and that's fine, just freakin' own it.

Whatever you do, know that you will make your children stronger by having the strength to leave a broken marriage, over the decision to be a coward in a bad marriage.

For your sake, I hope you separate. If she goes to this man, that is her decision and you have to move on in your life. If she doesn't and she goes to counseling and you to go together and she is honest for once and you work on it together, then great. Otherwise, without honesty, what the heck do you have? Certainly not a future together.

BTW, I hope you continue to seek IC. And the motorcycle training? Don't take her with you, although I'm sure you will. I feel that is something you should do on your own, and at least you will show your independence. Her hopping along for the ride and license, after how she has behaved, is just reinforcing that she can get away with it. Take a stand man. If you're interested in being more friendly, find an activity that you don't have to worry that she'll use to just visit this guy (like you said, will she get a license to hop on a bike and visit this dude). If she's persistent about only doing the motorcycle training and has no interest in any other activity, I'd say she's telling you (very strongly) that she's just using you for a license to visit this guy.


----------



## paramore

if you do take her to the class dude, DON'T give her access to the bike


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## KathyGriffinFan

paramore said:


> if you do take her to the class dude, DON'T give her access to the bike


Didn't he say that her father had a bike and was worried about her using that one? I'll have to look back.


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## paramore

I think he said they could both use it....and I don't believe her parents like what their daughter is doing, perhaps he could go to his dad in law and make sure she doesn't get access to his bike either.


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## KathyGriffinFan

Now if you're using a motorcycle to commute to/from work, are you giving her access to your van (that's in your name) during the day while you're away?


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## paramore

ohhhh yeah, didn't even think of that, hopefully it's a bit of a clunker that doesn't have a chance to make to CO lol.


----------



## joe kidd

paramore said:


> ohhhh yeah, didn't even think of that, hopefully it's a bit of a clunker that doesn't have a chance to make to CO lol.


Would probably be better off if it could.


----------



## lordmayhem

What a painful thread to read. You certainly have co-dependency written all over you, especially on your forehead.

Sorry to say this, but your neediness and weakness really makes you look so unattractive. So unattractive that your cheating wife's online boyfriend looks more attractive than you.

You say she told you that she ended it, yet she is hiding her cell phone. Do you seriously believe that? Who pays for this cell phone? If you're the one paying for it, *THEN STOP PAYING FOR IT!* Man up! Cut off her access to the internet by deleting her profile from the computer and changing your password. She needs to go cold turkey and no contact with the other man.


----------



## lordmayhem

joe kidd said:


> Would probably be better off if it could.


:iagree:

Then it could be stuck there.


----------



## turnera

lordmayhem said:


> Sorry to say this, but your neediness and weakness really makes you look so unattractive. So unattractive that your cheating wife's online boyfriend looks more attractive than you.


And she told you to your FACE that he is obese and she's not sure she can stand to look at him...yet she still wants to!

What does that say about YOU?


----------



## Jellybeans

Ok first off, let's not all gang up on TN, cause we are here to help him and listen to him and support him.

With that said, the messages and advice are all the same. He is not attractive to his wife right now because he is letting her walk all over him. 

No woman will love a man she cannot respect. That is an unwritten rule. 

I know every woman on this site will back me up when I say that. 

This is true:



KathyGriffinFan said:


> I would much rather hear you be blunt about where you stand. "Look guys, my wife treats me like crap and she has paraded this EA in front of me for 9 months but I cannot leave her. I don't want to make excuses, or say I'm doing this for the kids because I'm doing it for me.
> I. Cannot. Leave. Her."


Because TN, you are spinning your wheels.


----------



## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> And she told you to your FACE that he is obese and she's not sure she can stand to look at him...yet she still wants to!
> 
> What does that say about YOU?


Well, the obese part was my theory. Since she said she knew his weight and she had been watching a show called "Heavy". As some point, she did say his weight was 130, not exactly obese. Definitely no Joe Atlas, either. 


OK, what is co-dependency? I guess I should know and am showing my ignorance on the subject. I will talk to my counsellor about it at our next meeting. I definitely know I am nowhere near perfect and have a lot of work to do.


----------



## HurtinginTN

paramore said:


> ohhhh yeah, didn't even think of that, hopefully it's a bit of a clunker that doesn't have a chance to make to CO lol.



It is quite a clunker, actually. I was kind of joking about her using the motorcycle to go to CO. She would have to arrange a babysitter for the trip. The only ones we have ever used are family. All the family knows and dis-approves of the affair.


----------



## turnera

So...instead of standing up to her and making her choose you or him, you'll let the FAMILY make a stink to her about babysitting?

sigh

All this time, and you never even took the time to look up codependency?


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

HurtinginTN said:


> she did say his weight was 130, not exactly obese. Definitely no Joe Atlas, either.


130! good god man, that's tiny. I dont think he could be "fat" unless he had was under 5 feet tall. Pretty small dude. 

I weigh 185 @ 5'11". I like to think Im a pretty normal sized guy.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> I despair when I read your your posts as you are hoping and being gullible _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I am. I know that and am working on it.



KathyGriffinFan said:


> Well, first let me preface that by saying you continue to stick to the general theme in all your statements, so much so that it seems kind of...maybe fake is the word? .


I don't understand this statement. I wish all this garbage was made up. My imagination isn't that good (or bad). My emotions have been a total roller coaster. There have been days where I called a divorce attorney. There are days where I have a glimmer of hope. There are days I want to call the vet girl so bad I can't stand it. There are days all I want to do is cry. There are days I say "To hell with it." There are days I say I should do everything I can to save this for my kids' sake. There have been several nights I've packed my bags, stopped and looked at my wonderful kids laying there sleeping, and unpacked the bags. My actions, words, emotions, resolve, and everything else have been all over the place. But there has been nothing fake about it. 

Perhaps you are referring to the generous gift of a friend. That sounds like something from a fairy tale. I was floored by the offer. The fact that this person cares so much for my well-being has been very helpful to me during this crisis. The offer and the impact of that offer were very real.

Perhaps you are referring to the "fish in the sea" part. The vet girl that accepted the date is a very real, very beautiful, very nice fish that I would definitely go after IF I was in a position that I was ready to date. There were a few girls this weekend that flirted with me. One in particular ran her hands through my hair when I was in the line for the restroom. She said she had been wanting to do that all night. She said, "If YOU don't get laid tonight, . . . " I was so shocked and the music was so loud, I didn't hear the rest. Her and her husband ended up at the table with my friends at some point later in the night. That was a little awkward. 



KathyGriffinFan said:


> BTW, I hope you continue to seek IC.


I will, as well as reading up on co-dependency, transactional analysis, EGO states, No More Mr. Nice Guy, etc.



lordmayhem said:


> Sorry to say this, but your neediness and weakness really makes you look so unattractive. So unattractive that your cheating wife's online boyfriend looks more attractive than you.


Ouch! Sometimes the truth really hurts.



turnera said:


> So...instead of standing up to her and making her choose you or him, you'll let the FAMILY make a stink to her about babysitting?


No, I'm just saying that isn't a possibility.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> 130! good god man, that's tiny. I dont think he could be "fat" unless he had was under 5 feet tall. Pretty small dude.
> 
> I weigh 185 @ 5'11". I like to think Im a pretty normal sized guy.



Yeah, I weigh 160 at 5'8" right now (185 a couple of months ago). I'm pretty short and fairly skinny right now. He's probably both shorter and skinnier, if she's telling the truth about the weight.


----------



## Shooboomafoo

TN, dont let yourself absorb ONE SINGLE WORD in regards to "codependency" being a horrible thing.
Marriage as of late has evolved with that theory into exactly what it shouldnt be. Two indpendent people with independent lives sharing a roof over their heads. Imagine, being able to rely and depend on your wife to make the pro-marriage decisions without your influence. Being able to trust in that. Being able to know without asking, what her motives were. 
Here, read this:
How the Co-dependency Movement Is Ruining Marriages


----------



## Shooboomafoo

TN,
you care about your marriage, your kids, your life, and your wife.
you are seeing flip flop waffling all over the place about what she wants, and a complete disregard for what you know is right. Even if it ends in divorce. 
Do you think that some sort of professional help is necessary for her? It does not sound like she is even in the state of mind to make a rational decision on anything. Much like my wife who is 30K in personal cc debt, and wants to go shopping this weekend! This is a nightmare, and I hear all these people talking about you being a doormat, and wishy washy. Well no kidding people!!! Kids in the picture make a HUGE difference when you are considering them as well!!! Please take some of that browbeating with a grain of salt. I think some posters in here are doing more harm than good. Even with good intentions.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

HurtinginTN said:


> Yeah, I weigh 160 at 5'8" right now (185 a couple of months ago). I'm pretty short and fairly skinny right now. He's probably both shorter and skinnier, if she's telling the truth about the weight.


I'm down from almost 210 myself. Stress and the Gym combined with zero appetite for months and months will do wonders huh?.

anyway, at 5'8/160 your a 'smaller' guy... if the OM weighs 130... Your wife might be getting seduced by a leprecaun.. would explain the "spell" she's under anyway.


----------



## just_peachy

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> ... Your wife might be getting seduced by a leprecaun.. would explain the "spell" she's under anyway.


Lol. Doubtful he's got a pot'o'gold hidden anywhere, though.

130 on a man is practically skin and bones and nothing else. I truly have a hard time believing it. 

Whatever, it's not really germane to the primary issue - her affair is ongoing, blatantly so in some cases, and she's also exploring options with other men. TN, I just don't see how this can evolve into the kind of loving relationship you say you want. I'm sorry; I just don't.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I'm down from almost 210 myself. Stress and the Gym combined with zero appetite for months and months will do wonders huh?.
> 
> anyway, at 5'8/160 your a 'smaller' guy... if the OM weighs 130... Your wife might be getting seduced by a leprecaun.. would explain the "spell" she's under anyway.


:rofl: That was great. I needed a good laugh.

Yes, the no appetite brought the weight right off. I've actually gained about 6 pounds back after hitting the gym pretty hard. I had dropped down to 154. This is coming back in better places than the weight that left.  My biceps are starting to bulge more than my belly.:smthumbup:


----------



## Jellybeans

TN, have you read Love Must Be Tough? If not, check it out.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

Shooboomafoo said:


> TN, dont let yourself absorb ONE SINGLE WORD in regards to "codependency" being a horrible thing.


I hope Im not misreading what your saying and about to step on your neck for no reason... but, are you saying coodependency is a good thing? He should shut out what other people are saying to him about being a strong, confident man... and listen to your advice to embrace his codepdancy??? 

WTF really dude ?!?, 

Wait... Are you really TN's cheating wife's 4 foot tall lover? You running some counter-intell campaign here ?



Shooboomafoo said:


> TN,
> I hear all these people talking about you being a doormat, and wishy washy. Well no kidding people!!! Kids in the picture make a HUGE difference when you are considering them as well!!! Please take some of that browbeating with a grain of salt. I think some posters in here are doing more harm than good. Even with good intentions.


We all (most of us) have kids, Some of us have been following his journey and understand clearly how he feels and what he is going through... NO one is popping into a thread giving advice based on our own anger or misplaced aggression for something we didnt do ourselves... 

and most of us are doing what is needed to help him shake out of his own smog as we have been through it, the hard way... TN does NOT NEED more excuses which your giving him. So, with all do respect. STFU.  

TN.... be clear bro.... Being a codepdant whining victim is NOT A GOOD THING. Do not listen to this sh*t.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Shooboomafoo said:


> TN, dont let yourself absorb ONE SINGLE WORD in regards to "codependency" being a horrible thing.
> Marriage as of late has evolved with that theory into exactly what it shouldnt be. Two indpendent people with independent lives sharing a roof over their heads. Imagine, being able to rely and depend on your wife to make the pro-marriage decisions without your influence. Being able to trust in that. Being able to know without asking, what her motives were.
> Here, read this:
> How the Co-dependency Movement Is Ruining Marriages


I did read the link. I agree with it 100%. The thing is, her affair is an addiction, as alcoholism. *Without addiction*, which is what the most of the article is about, he makes a good point. However, since she is an addict, my situation falls into the latter part of the article. It's actually a good article, Pit. It gives some of the same advice I've received here, in a different way. Basically, my actions would be good in a "normal" relationship (if there is such a thing). However, they are bass-ackwards if an addiction is involved (which is the case).


----------



## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> TN, have you read Love Must Be Tough? If not, check it out.


I have not, yet. I have had a couple of people recommend it. I'll order that one after I finish the others.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

HurtinginTN said:


> I did read the link. I agree with it 100%. The thing is, her affair is an addiction, as alcoholism. *Without addiction*, which is what the most of the article is about, he makes a good point.  However, since she is an addict, my situation falls into the latter part of the article. It's actually a good article, Pit. It gives some of the same advice I've received here, in a different way. Basically, my actions would be good in a "normal" relationship (if there is such a thing). However, they are bass-ackwards if an addiction is involved (which is the case).


Yes, perhaps _IF_ things were not what they are, Maybe it's good advice. _IF_ you had a normal relationship.

and _IF _my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle.

Not the case.


----------



## Jellybeans

HurtinginTN said:


> I have not, yet. I have had a couple of people recommend it. I'll order that one after I finish the others.


Get it at the library. It's free and has great stuff in it. That you can definitely use!


----------



## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Yes, perhaps _IF_ things were not what they are, Maybe it's good advice. _IF_ you had a normal relationship.
> 
> and _IF _my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle.
> 
> Not the case.


It did have a section that did apply. The section related to alcoholics. Affair addicts would apply also. I believe he had posted it with good faith, was my point.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Oh, yeah. I forgot to say another piece of why she may very well not be contacting him. I haven't found the phone, but I did find the charger hidden in a glove in one of her drawers. It has been "missing" for about a week. Either she isn't calling him or she has one hell of a battery.


----------



## Shooboomafoo

When someone is in a mental state due to an actual physiological difficulty (much like Pit Of My Stomach's ability to reach my neck with his leg), No amount of Manning Up is going to do any good other than end things permanently. The wife in this state of mind is not able to make rational decisions. There IS a Mental Problem. Its not about her choosing her affair over him. Its not about him being a wuss for taking it. Thats the point of my post , Pit. Sure, he could become a hardass and things will just end. He'd get halftime with the kids, and she'd get half his salary, and spend the rest of her life with one night stands, WHILE the kids are torn to hell. In some instances, your methodology is great, and it ends like yours did. From the entire string of posts I read from TN, he wants to do something to help his situation and regain his marriage. That not codependency or being a wuss. sounds like a pretty decent man in my book. I am in doubt that your strongarm tactic will do anything but end it. 
So, how do you get her into a doctor to get her checked out ?
Pit would have you hogtie her throw her in the trunk and dropped off outside the door of the office.


----------



## Lilyana

Ahhhh codependancy.. I'm a codependant.. took me years of therapy to figure that out.. basically in short...

codependancy is to care too much. You wrap yourself up in everyone elses needs and desires and feelings and yours take a backseat...I wrapped myself up in my husbands addiction for a looooooong time. which is how i found out I'm a codependant.. its a term mostly used in AA meetings and such. 

Lots of good material on it out there.. read up and it will open your eyes to a lot of things!


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

HurtinginTN said:


> It did have a section that did apply. The section related to alcoholics. Affair addicts would apply also. I believe he had posted it with good faith, was my point.


I'm sure it's a good article, and I will absolutely read it. I can't back off of my strong stand that exhibiting codependant traits in your situation or being weak and "needy" is a recipe for continued disaster... But, I'm sure the article are very insightful. WIll read.


----------



## Jellybeans

Shooboomafoo said:


> The wife in this state of mind is not able to make rational decisions. There IS a Mental Problem. Its not about her choosing her affair over him.


Totally disagree. It's her CHOICE. It's a decision she makes. He doesn't make her do it. Her kids don't. The OM doesn't. Nobody is forcing her to have and affair and keep lying about it.

Deflecting the blame elsewhere is not the answer. She is responsible for her half of the f-ckery, and in this case, it's having an affair. She knows TN doesn't like it at all an wants a marriage that isn't an open marriage and yet she CONTINUES to contact the OM, even lies about it.


----------



## just_peachy

The wife is able to make rational decisions in this state, and, indeed, I believe she has. It's just that "rational" does not necessarily equate with "ethical" or "right" or whatever descriptor you choose to apply.

Rationally, she's choosing to remain engaged with extramarital activities. Why? Likely because she's been able to live with the consequences thus far - a few fights, some clothes thrown on the floor, the occasional internet interruption - minor inconveniences given what she's getting out of the situation: a cake buffet.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Shooboomafoo said:


> So, how do you get her into a doctor to get her checked out ?


Well, we've been there. She has been going to independent counselling the past couple of months. She cancelled her appointment this week because she didn't want to go. I don't know if the one she is going to see is any good anyway. I would really like to get her to see the one I'm going to. 

Her sister is an RN. We talked about this a few days ago. She brought it up that her sister has some mental issues. She don't see many things the way most of us do. While I don't think any of that excuses the affair and everything else, your scenario is very likely to happen if the marriage ends.

She will not find a man to put up with her crap. She will move from man to man searching for what no man can give her. All the while dragging our kids with her. They'll be split between me and her. No matter how good I make my half of the time, her half will be hell. Yes, I have considered this. That is one reason I put up with the crap that I do.


----------



## just_peachy

HurtinginTN said:


> Her sister is an RN. We talked about this a few days ago. She brought it up that her sister has some mental issues.
> 
> _snip_
> 
> All the while dragging our kids with her. They'll be split between me and her. No matter how good I make my half of the time, her half will be hell. Yes, I have considered this. That is one reason I put up with the crap that I do.


Any chance you could get sole custody in the event of divorce? That would minimize some of the damage - particularly if you can prove some sort of mental instability.


----------



## Shooboomafoo

Jellybeans said:


> Totally disagree. It's her CHOICE. It's a decision she makes. He doesn't make her do it. Her kids don't. The OM doesn't. Nobody is forcing her to have and affair and keep lying about it.
> 
> Deflecting the blame elsewhere is not the answer. She is responsible for her half of the f-ckery, and in this case, it's having an affair. She knows TN doesn't like it at all an wants a marriage that isn't an open marriage and yet she CONTINUES to contact the OM, even lies about it.


---even if there is something wrong in her head of a serious mental issue? Reason why I say this: My wifes grandmother had a type of anyurism (sp) in her neck, which put pressure on blood flow to the brain. Until it was operated on, she was a completely different person pitting daughter against daughter, causing extreme family upset and doing things no one in her closest family relation could even imagine her capable of. When she had the operation she was completely unaware of her behavior during this time. I realize it is only a possibility, but a possibility nonetheless, even a mental breakdown, or the wrong prescription for Xanax instead of an antidepressant can have far reaching effects. Just thought it was something worth looking into, because as TN spells this out, it is in no way the actions of someone remotely aware of what they are doing, and rationally choosing to do so. Im not trying to offer an excuse or excusing the actions she is taking, but there are other considerations that in this instance, may be worth looking into.


----------



## Jellybeans

What are her mental issues? TN, please tell us. 

TN's wife knows it's wrong cause if she didn't, why would she hide her phone, battery, lie about being in touch with him? 

So she is very calculated and rational about how she hides these things and continues to do them...


----------



## Shooboomafoo

Hey Im sorry folks, maybe I am just trying to rationalize and make excuses for my own wifes affairs, and realizing that I have a nice little set of raisinettes hanging down below.
I know that pushing her through demands and doing the 180 right now would lead to one single outcome. the End of this. Thats her defense mechanism, to cut and run, and it would play directly into that, rather than finding and exhausting all efforts. Just scheduled a MC session myself for next week. It will be the very first one for us, and I totally see a disorder type of issue going on in my wife, even with the EA shes had. I am hoping the MC can realize this and offer some sort of help with it.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

I'm not advocating "manning up" caveman style... 

Im telling him he has to show some respect for himself at least he needs to establish some boundries, there is a line between being understanding and loving and being outright abused and neglected... No one can live like that and not carry residual scars... and being that "punching dummy" is not winning ANYONES wife back... He's been way over that line. I'm am certain you mean well and I do understand the value of empathy and being a loving and forgiving partner... 



Shooboomafoo said:


> Pit would have you hogtie her throw her in the trunk and dropped off outside the door of the office.


lol. (Pit beats hairy chest with club) "oooga-boooga! you broke woman, you go to doctor now!!"


----------



## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> What are her mental issues? TN, please tell us.


Well, I don't even know all of my mental issues. Co-dependency, doormat, nice guy, etc. I'm an accountant, not a psychologist. 

She doesn't like to be "pressured". That is one thing that has been around a long time. I think that goes back to her childhood with very strict parents. Her father is a totally different man now than he was when she was a child. I never saw that side of him. However, she definitely has scars from her childhood. 

She has a very strong defense mechanism and aversion to being "pressured" or "forced" to do anything. This has come to play in many situations over the years. I don't know if that relates to any type of mental issue or not. It definitely has related to marital issues.

She is very depressed. She has been on anti-depressants for several years. The panic attacks a few months ago were sort of a breaking point, I believe. I think the stress of the affair added to her depression was more than she could handle. She is currently on a few medications that keep away the panic attacks.

I have a friend that had an emotional affair a few years ago. He was also on anti-depressants at the time. He believes that this was a factor in his not thinking clearly. He got off the anti-depressants and saw what he was doing. Luckily for him, his wife, and his marriage, he was able to go no contact immediately before it progressed to the physical level. He related this to me recently and thinks her meds may contribute to the affair. They seem to block a person's conscience.

I don't know what issues may be there. It would be nice to learn, though.


----------



## just_peachy

Dude, I am on antidepressants and my conscience is fine. They have side effects, but causing cheating is not one of them.


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## HurtinginTN

just_peachy said:


> Dude, I am on antidepressants and my conscience is fine. They have side effects, but causing cheating is not one of them.


No, I didn't mean to imply they are the cause. Neither are they an excuse. However, they could be a contributing factor. 

I certainly don't condone her actions. Also, I have plenty of work to do on myself. That just brought up some other thoughts. Especially combined with my sister-in-law recently saying she thinks there are issues.


----------



## Jellybeans

just_peachy said:


> Rationally, she's choosing to remain engaged with extramarital activities. Why? Likely because she's been able to live with the consequences thus far - a few fights, some clothes thrown on the floor, the occasional internet interruption - minor inconveniences given what she's getting out of the situation: a cake buffet.


Spot on.



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Im telling him he has to show some respect for himself at least he needs to establish some boundries, there is a line between being understanding and loving and being outright abused and neglected


This is EXACTLY what it is. 



HurtinginTN said:


> She doesn't like to be "pressured". She has a very strong defense mechanism and aversion to being "pressured" or "forced" to do anything.
> .


This is not a mental issue. This is her wanting to do whatever she wants.



HurtinginTN said:


> He related this to me recently and thinks her meds may contribute to the affair. They seem to block a person's conscience..


This is ridiculous and IMHO, probably the dumbest rationalization/explaination I've ever heard for cheating.



just_peachy said:


> Dude, I am on antidepressants and my conscience is fine. They have side effects, but causing cheating is not one of them.


Word! One of my closest friends is bi-polar and has never cheated in any of her relationships. Ever.

It's just more excuses.


----------



## turnera

just_peachy said:


> Dude, I am on antidepressants and my conscience is fine. They have side effects, but causing cheating is not one of them.


Yeah, we're not talking mental conditions here. I thought you were talking bipolar or sociopath or something. 

She knows what she's doing.

She knows you're too weak and codependent to cause her any consequences, and she hates you for it, so she cheats to get the thrill of a 'real man' that she's not getting from you.


----------



## just_peachy

HurtinginTN said:


> No, I didn't mean to imply they are the cause. Neither are they an excuse. However, they could be a contributing factor.


No. Antidepressants Do. Not. Contribute to cheating. _Who you are _and _what you value _contribute to cheating.

Your guy friend is rationalizing away his screw up because he won't own the responsibility for it, and you are internalizing it because you are grasping at straws - looking for any reason to make this less your wife's fault.

Honestly, she doesn't sound like she has actual mental issues so much as she sounds like a petulant, spoiled child in need of a good spanking (and not the foreplay kind!)


----------



## HurtinginTN

just_peachy said:


> Honestly, she doesn't sound like she has actual mental issues so much as she sounds like a petulant, spoiled child in need of a good spanking


Now, isn't that some sort of mental issue for a late-30's woman? Maybe I'll break out the paddle tonight. I've only ever used one type of paddle and it always brings tears, not joy. 

I guess that is one way to look at this. One of the hardest things, in my opinion, of being a parent is giving a spanking. I had always heard the saying, "This is going to hurt me worse than it hurts you", but I never believed it when I was on the receiving end. Now that I have had to be on the giving end, I definitely believe it.

I can justify giving the children temporary pain on their bottom in order to teach them something that will possibly prevent more pain for them in the future. "You don't hit girls" when my son hits his older sisters. A spanking or two helped to drive that point home and he doesn't. I'd rather his bottom hurt a little and him get the point that he should NEVER hit a girl, regardless of the provocation. 

I suppose I need to apply that same logic to my wife. A little spanking of no internet, etc. may hurt her in the short term, but help in the long term.


----------



## just_peachy

HurtinginTN said:


> Now, isn't that some sort of mental issue for a late-30's woman?


Nope. It sounds like a woman who never had to grow up, but it's not a mental issue.

I never believed the line about "hurts me more than you" growing up either. I've only ever had the fortitude to spank my boys once, and that was for throwing rocks at passing cars. The husband has spanked them twice - both times for lying (how's that for irony?). 



HurtinginTN said:


> I suppose I need to apply that same logic to my wife. A little spanking of no internet, etc. may hurt her in the short term, but help in the long term.


Yes. At the very least, it will show her that you are serious about this. She doesn't take you seriously right now. It's the same as with children - you have to state the consequences and then follow up on them, no matter how painful you may find it. Otherwise, they know your boundaries aren't for real and they can get away with bad behavior because you'll tolerate it.


----------



## Jellybeans

HurtinginTN said:


> Now, isn't that some sort of mental issue for a late-30's woman? .


No. It's called selfishness and a conscious decision of hers to actively partake in relationships outside your marriage.

It is all very very calculated on her end.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

just_peachy said:


> No. Antidepressants Do. Not. Contribute to cheating. _Who you are _and _what you value _contribute to cheating.
> 
> *Your guy friend is rationalizing away his screw up because he won't own the responsibility for it, and you are internalizing it because you are grasping at straws - looking for any reason to make this less your wife's fault.*
> 
> Honestly, she doesn't sound like she has actual mental issues so much as she sounds like a petulant, spoiled child in need of a good spanking (and not the foreplay kind!)


Spot on. Bingo. Bullseye. Nail on the head.


----------



## Lilyana

I am on anti depressants and anti anxiety meds.. I have never cheated nor had the mind to cheat even with all the **** I've gone through with my H.

I think your friend is using it as an exuse so he can swallow his wifes cheating easier. 

I have a conscience.. i know right from wrong on my meds.. there is no excuse for her behavior.


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## pidge70

I've heard of people justifying their cheating because they went off the meds but, never heard of cheating because of being medicated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

She went for a walk last night. However, before she left, she gave me the battery for her phone. She said she didn't want me thinking she was calling him. It was probably dead anyway, since I've had the charger. But the act of her giving it to me so I would know she wasn't calling him seems like a good sign.


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## turnera

Could be. Unless she's got another one stashed. That would be very smart of her, if she's still cheating.


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## Jellybeans

:rofl: Oh, Turnera. You're such a killjoy.


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## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> Could be. Unless she's got another one stashed. That would be very smart of her, if she's still cheating.


I can't say that thought didn't cross my mind. When does healthy doubt cross the line into paranoia?


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## pidge70

If she truly wanted you to feel secure, she would have left the phone itself.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## anon_4_now

HurtinginTN said:


> I have a friend that had an emotional affair a few years ago. He was also on anti-depressants at the time. He believes that this was a factor in his not thinking clearly. He got off the anti-depressants and saw what he was doing. Luckily for him, his wife, and his marriage, he was able to go no contact immediately before it progressed to the physical level. He related this to me recently and thinks her meds may contribute to the affair. They seem to block a person's conscience.


i read this in the way that SOME suicidal people get on anti-depresants/Anti-Anxiety meds and kill themselves easier because of the lack of anxiety. MAYBE (I'm just tossing this out there...) In some people, the introduction of anti-anxiety (some anxiety is healthy) meds allow people to see past the gut feeling and guilt of an affair. It won't make them cheat but if the desire and thought is there, it removes the "Hey you idiot" response...

I know not every person who takes these meds will cheat, just like not every suicidal person will commit suicide when they start them.

Either way, TN, I feel for you and hope the best for your life with what you have had to go through.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

pidge70 said:


> If she truly wanted you to feel secure, she wouldn't have a f*ucking dedicated cheating phone.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Fixed your post.


----------



## WhereAmI

Heads up! If I cheat I'm going to use the twinkie defense. I'll keep a box ready just in case! BOOM! 

Your wife started cheating because she wanted to. She continued cheating because she wanted to. End-o-story.


----------



## HurtinginTN

lol. Dead on as usual, Pit. I'm on page 6 of yours. Yes the similarity is crazy. The same advice that was given to you fits me as well. I do have one question. It seems like you mentioned 18 months of no sex. Also, about the same time frame on no drinking. Are the 2 somehow related or just coincidental?


----------



## anon_4_now

WhereAmI said:


> Heads up! If I cheat I'm going to use the twinkie defense. I'll keep a box ready just in case! BOOM!
> 
> Your wife started cheating because she wanted to. She continued cheating because she wanted to. End-o-story.


Have you EVER thought to yourself (no matter how minute of a thought) what it would be like to rob a bank or a jewelry store (or break ANY law for that matter)? That is the difference here. You have the GUT CHECK that tells you "Hey Stupid... Don't!"... Those meds can (and do) remove the GUT CHECK response. 

Use all the humorous analogies you want to make the idea sound stupid but that doesn't change the fact that what I'm tossing out there as a POSSIBILITY isn't true.


----------



## Jellybeans

Where said:your wife started cheating because she wanted to. She continued cheating because she wanted to. End-o-story.

Ding ding ding. That is correct!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## just_peachy

anon_4_now said:


> Have you EVER thought to yourself (no matter how minute of a thought) what it would be like to rob a bank or a jewelry store (or break ANY law for that matter)? That is the difference here. You have the GUT CHECK that tells you "Hey Stupid... Don't!"... Those meds can (and do) remove the GUT CHECK response.
> 
> Use all the humorous analogies you want to make the idea sound stupid but that doesn't change the fact that what I'm tossing out there as a POSSIBILITY isn't true.


As a person on antidepressants, I can state unequivocally that this is simply not true.

The meds do not remove your "gut check" response; they do not negate your ability to discern right from wrong - provided you know the difference.

In some cases (not even most or half, just some), yes, they do cause an increase in suicidal/homicidal thoughts. However, even in these cases, the person suffering the effects still has free will with regard to acting upon them, and both the inclination/predisposition and willingness to ignore what they know to be "right" (or the utter absence of that discernment in the first place) must be present.

Antidepressants are in no way a contributing factor to cheating on one's spouse. Personal integrity is - but the meds to not affect that.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

HurtinginTN said:


> lol. Dead on as usual, Pit. I'm on page 6 of yours. Yes the similarity is crazy. The same advice that was given to you fits me as well. I do have one question. It seems like you mentioned 18 months of no sex. Also, about the same time frame on no drinking. Are the 2 somehow related or just coincidental?


No. Well as it turns out yes, I guess. 

She didnt intend for me to "wake up", I threw a major wrench in her plans. Guess she had to keep the sex coming to keep me docile while her master plan was playing out. Master plan: Hubby is alcoholic & emotionally neglectful. Leave hubby, get house/kid, sympathy from everyone, seemlessly insert OM.

When she realized I wasn't playing along with the plan, she got mad and changed gears. No more sexytime for Pit. Had to play the "you hurt me so bad card" (understandable shift), but plan B didnt include getting the spoils from masterplan (house/child/understanding from everyone)... So... Gaslight Hubby, waffle and cake eat... Waffled too long, Hubby stayed the course... Then hubby wakes up... The rest is well documented in the thread...


----------



## anon_4_now

just_peachy said:


> As a person on antidepressants, I can state unequivocally that this is simply not true.
> 
> The meds do not remove your "gut check" response; they do not negate your ability to discern right from wrong - provided you know the difference.
> 
> In some cases (not even most or half, just some), yes, they do cause an increase in suicidal/homicidal thoughts. However, even in these cases, the person suffering the effects still has free will with regard to acting upon them, and both the inclination/predisposition and willingness to ignore what they know to be "right" (or the utter absence of that discernment in the first place) must be present.
> 
> Antidepressants are in no way a contributing factor to cheating on one's spouse. Personal integrity is - but the meds to not affect that.


If I stated that it caused this in EVERYONE taking the meds, you would be correct to a degree. I never said that nor did I ever state they made you not know what is right and wrong. It *sometimes can* remove the natural anxiety that tells people to not do something they know is wrong. 

So you take them... I'm glad they help you. I eat hamburger but I can't tell you how to butcher a cow. Go do your homework and learn about what you're arguing here. What I am saying is in multiple medical journals and fully supportable.

I'm gonna get out of this thread though and wish NT the best. Sorry for the unintentional thread jacking.


----------



## WhereAmI

anon_4_now said:


> Have you EVER thought to yourself (no matter how minute of a thought) what it would be like to rob a bank or a jewelry store (or break ANY law for that matter)? That is the difference here. You have the GUT CHECK that tells you "Hey Stupid... Don't!"... Those meds can (and do) remove the GUT CHECK response.
> 
> Use all the humorous analogies you want to make the idea sound stupid but that doesn't change the fact that what I'm tossing out there as a POSSIBILITY isn't true.


I've seen medication do odd things to various people. However, if the ONLY "side effect" is cheating and the person in question seems to have impulse control in all other aspects of their life, they're making excuses. HTN's wife was still in control of virtually everything else. She didn't start shoplifting, abusing her children, or setting his clothes on fire because she felt hatred for him. She chose to cheat.


----------



## HurtinginTN

anon_4_now said:


> It *sometimes can* remove the natural anxiety that tells people to not do something they know is wrong.
> 
> I'm gonna get out of this thread though and wish NT the best. Sorry for the unintentional thread jacking.


Well, I do believe the meds she is on suppress the gut check reaction in my wife. Just before I found the google searches, we made 2 trips to the ER, in 2 successive nights, because she thought she was having a heart attack. The first trip had a variable in it that we thought may have caused it. The second trip did not have that variable. We saw about 5 different doctors in as many days.

With the panic attacks, she made an incredibly dramatic change. For a week or so, she cut out anything and everything that was "wrong", including OM. We even tossed several items that had previously been pretty near and dear to us in the garbage. She had a dream during that time and was fully convinced she was going to die in a few days. The change in her was incredible. She became quite an amazing woman.

Then, one of her doctors prescribed something that took away the panic attacks. No more panic attacks, no more gut check. Almost immediately, the incredible changes went by the wayside. OM jumped right back into our lives and the affair thrived. So, I do believe they play a factor in diminishing the "gut check" of panic attacks, at least in my wife. While I'm sure they affect different people differently, when I look back at it, I am convinced they have contributed to my personal hell of the past few months.


----------



## pidge70

Is she on anything now?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HurtinginTN

pidge70 said:


> Is she on anything now?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, same meds. Several. I don't know the names.


----------



## Jellybeans

WhereAmI said:


> I've seen medication do odd things to various people. However, if the ONLY "side effect" is cheating and the person in question seems to have impulse control in all other aspects of their life, they're making excuses.


Yes, it would be funny if meds came with a label stating

* "Side effects include: nausea, dizziness and cheating." *

Um, okay............


----------



## pidge70

People make choices...it's called free will.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

The meds didn't make her turn back into Cheatzilla - her realizing she's just having panic attacks and not about to die did.


----------



## KathyGriffinFan

Jellybeans said:


> Yes, it would be funny if meds came with a label stating
> 
> * "Side effects include: nausea, dizziness and cheating." *
> 
> Um, okay............


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::lol::lol::lol::lol::iagree::smthumbup:
OMG, this had me, literally, LOL'g


----------



## KathyGriffinFan

I'd like an update as to how the last week has gone for ya, TN. Anything new?

Has she given you the bat phone (cheating phone) yet?


----------



## just_peachy

TN, diminished impulse control and/or loss of inhibition are not listed as any of the side effects of antidepressants, not even the rare ones. Believe me, I have educated myself on my own medication.

I also take Xanax for panic attacks. While they do remove, or at least lessen, the anxiety associated with something I do not want to do or someplace I do not want to be, they do not change the person I am underneath the anxiety - nor is such a thing listed as a potential side effect.

They may increase sex drive in some cases (in which case, you're supposed to tell your doctor).

The idea that either type of medication is a causal factor in engaging in vastly inappropriate behavior is still unsubstantiated. At this point it is, at best, correlative. The propensity to engage in such behavior *must* be present in the person (whether as a natural state, or possibly due to some other, possibly undiagnosed condition) for the meds to contribute to such activity in any meaningful way.

Your wife has the will and the propensity to cheat. The panic attacks stopped her for a while. Anxiety meds removed the panic attacks and she went back to cheating. This is not a side effect of the medication - it is simply your wife's natural state.


----------



## anon_4_now

A quick google search showed me this....

Antidepressant Side Effects



> _Worse, in a few patients, panic, agitation, sleep deprivation, and impaired judgment *may reduce impulse control*, and antidepressants have been linked to people acting out, sometimes violently._ Thus, the headlines about homicides and suicides by people who never were violent before starting on antidepressants. Yet, although there's considerable literature on this problem 2-16 , few doctors know about it because their information sources are heavily influenced by the drug industry, whose research somehow keeps missing the problem.


I never said it is 100% going to cause impulse control issues. I stated that it MIGHT and IT HAS BEEN PROVEN.

If all of your research failed to show you that it is POSSIBLE that you can have impulse control issues, then you need to go back to the basics and start your research again. I'm not going to link all of the articles that prove what I stated beyond the first link I got on a basic google search. Do the rest of your research on your own.

I also never said that his wife didn't have a desire to cheat. She obviously does. It is also POSSIBLE that the medication MIGHT HAVE aided her in acting out on those desires.

It's a shame that adults turn into little kids on this board and make light about facts. Grow up and try helping people. If you don't know the facts, don't make them up as you go.


----------



## anon_4_now

HurtinginTN said:


> Well, I do believe the meds she is on suppress the gut check reaction in my wife. Just before I found the google searches, we made 2 trips to the ER, in 2 successive nights, because she thought she was having a heart attack. The first trip had a variable in it that we thought may have caused it. The second trip did not have that variable. We saw about 5 different doctors in as many days.
> 
> With the panic attacks, she made an incredibly dramatic change. For a week or so, she cut out anything and everything that was "wrong", including OM. We even tossed several items that had previously been pretty near and dear to us in the garbage. She had a dream during that time and was fully convinced she was going to die in a few days. The change in her was incredible. She became quite an amazing woman.
> 
> Then, one of her doctors prescribed something that took away the panic attacks. No more panic attacks, no more gut check. Almost immediately, the incredible changes went by the wayside. OM jumped right back into our lives and the affair thrived. So, I do believe they play a factor in diminishing the "gut check" of panic attacks, at least in my wife. While I'm sure they affect different people differently, when I look back at it, I am convinced they have contributed to my personal hell of the past few months.


If she is willing, you should go to your Dr and adjust the dosage or get a different medication. It might not make a difference (as others have said, it might not have been what caused her to follow through with her desires), but your Dr will be the best judge of this... not a bunch of non Drs on the internet.

Good Luck


----------



## Jellybeans

Again, blaming medication for making or leading someone to cheat one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. 

And it's really irresponsible, IMO. 

It's the silliest rationalization for anything ever. 

But hey if some people believe that taking an anti-depressant could lead their spouse to cheating on them, then more power to them. 

*
PEOPLE CHEAT BECAUSE THEY WANT TO. *

Nothing more and nothing less. 

Nobody and nothing *makes* someone cheat.

Personal accountability. That's what it's all about. 

A marriage might be bad, they might be drunk, they might be feeling neglected, they might have lost their job, they might be depressed, they might be happy as hell, they might have been cheated on themselves but at the end of the day--there is a moment. Everyone has a moment, where THEY DECIDE whether to take that next step or not. If they decide it, they did it completely 100% of their own choice. 

Nobody stuck a gun to TN's wife's head and told her: If you don't start chatting and cheating w/ OM, I am going to pull this trigger.

Please.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Well, I had a good weekend, for once. Friday night, I spent vacumming the carpet in the play room. No, it wasn't on my honey-do list. I initiated it for a few reasons. One, it was a disaster since our little ball of fur likes to do her business in there if she doesn't get taken out every hour. (Yes, I have a spoiled dog as well as a spoiled wife. lol) Two, it is a step to get the house more marketable. Three, it was actually a stress reliever.

Saturday, I did yard work and we went to watch the kids play. They did awesome! They are 7, 9, and 10 and did excellent on stage in front of the crowd. Afterward, we dropped Mommy off and took the kids skating.

Sunday, the kids and I went to church, the park, and the river. We had a good day together. I grilled out for supper. Again, not for her sake, because some folks were grilling at the river and it really made me hungry. 

So, we didn't talk much or spend much time together. I still have the battery to the cheat phone. I don't believe she has another, but that is definitely a possibility. As Eli-zor said, my marriage is over and it will not even have a chance to re-start until she fully engages in it. Therefore, I am preparing to move on. I'm doing things because I want to, not putting every action through the filter of what she will think. Actually, she called me on our way home from the river. She wanted me to just bring home Wendy's since she was hungry and it would be easier. I said, "No, I'm grilling out. If you can't wait, get a snack." 

She has been very depressed the last week or so. I believe that is part of the script relating to ending an affair. She seems to be mourning her loss of Mr. Wonderful. That's just my guess and I'm not banking on it. She did say a few times this weekend, "You are an awesome dad." My daughter even told me that she told them that. However, that is one thing she has never wavered on. It still doesn't mean she wants me as a husband. That is one reason she has been "torn." I'm a great dad, but Mr. Wonderful is so thoughtful and understanding, etc. Of course he was, he never had anything but good from her. 

So, as far as the marriage goes, I don't see nor expect to see any improvement anytime soon. We haven't fought in several days. That may or may not be a good sign. It may just mean that we're both tired of putting up the energy to fight. Either way, I will continue the working out, church, time with the kids, etc. IF she ever decides to work on our marriage, I'll give it a shot. Until then, I will continue working on myself and working on making the home more marketable.


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## Eli-Zor

> IF she ever decides to work on our marriage, I'll give it a shot. Until then, I will continue working on myself and working on making the home more marketable


. 

Good for you, often a wayward will fear this more as they then realize they are not able to readily up and move. . Carry on with your plan, I am still in the camp that says until you can evidence the affair has stopped i.e she gives you the pass codes for the phone and you do not find another one or other means of communication, then the affair is ongoing just deeper underground. 

Be yourself, get into a physically good shape, keep a tight reign on the finances and by her the book "surviving an affair" by Harley , if she reads it she may find a way forward to recovery. 

Best wishes


----------



## lordmayhem

Yup. Been a victim of an online affair. Any man/woman can be the PERFECT Mr or Miss Wonderful online and over the telephone. It's really so simple. Just listen to what they have to say, and stroke their ego about how pretty, or wonderful they are. They will always think you're the best because they only see the side your presenting to them. They don't know the real person you are.

That's why its so maddening to see people destroy many years of marriage and childrens lives over someone they met over the internet and talking on the phone. I told my stupid, WW that.


----------



## anon_4_now

Jellybeans said:


> Again, blaming medication for making or leading someone to cheat one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.
> 
> And it's really irresponsible, IMO.
> 
> It's the silliest rationalization for anything ever.
> 
> But hey if some people believe that taking an anti-depressant could lead their spouse to cheating on them, then more power to them.
> 
> *
> PEOPLE CHEAT BECAUSE THEY WANT TO. *
> 
> Nothing more and nothing less.
> 
> Nobody and nothing *makes* someone cheat.
> 
> Personal accountability. That's what it's all about.
> 
> A marriage might be bad, they might be drunk, they might be feeling neglected, they might have lost their job, they might be depressed, they might be happy as hell, they might have been cheated on themselves but at the end of the day--there is a moment. Everyone has a moment, where THEY DECIDE whether to take that next step or not. If they decide it, they did it completely 100% of their own choice.
> 
> Nobody stuck a gun to TN's wife's head and told her: If you don't start chatting and cheating w/ OM, I am going to pull this trigger.
> 
> Please.


You are stuck on this childish rant of yours. You only read what you want in my posts.

I'll try one more time but I am pretty sure I am wasting my time. She chose to have an affair. Where most people have the "WTF" moment and never start, she didn't. That COULD HAVE been the meds that didn't give her the WTF moment. *COULD HAVE BEEN... NOT WAS*. 

Either way, She cheated because she wanted to... It wasn't the drug that wanted to and it wasn't the drug that made her go "I'd like to get into that other guys pants". I never stated that the drug is what drove her to cheat or anything of the sort but you keep reading that into my posts.

At this point, I'm done with you and the other kids who want to make light of the facts I've given to TN.


----------



## Jellybeans

I don't believe my post or "rant" as you called it is "childish" but hey if that is what you think, great. And also, do not dictate that I read what I want. I do however have my own opinion and it differs vastly from yours. That is too bad if you feel that the other posters are "kids" because they disagree with your point of view.


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## HurtinginTN

All right, you two. Please agree to disagree. I do agree that the meds reduced the "WTF am I doing" reaction. Reduced, not took away. They were not the cause, but COULD have been a contributing factor. That does not change the fact that she stole hundreds of hours from me and the kids to devote to playing games with that man. It does not change the fact that stole dozens of hours from us to talk to him on the phone. It does not change any of the facts of our situation. 

Both of you are right. The meds could have reduced the anxiety related to doing something she knew was wrong. She still made that choice to do something that was wrong. I don't want to get into a pro- vs. anti- anxiety medication argument. I have taken Zoloft at times (the first month after finding the emails included). They are a terrific help in times of extreme stress. 

The meds don't excuse her behaviour. They are a very small part of a very big problem. It doesn't matter much whether or how much they affected her judgment. The pain she has caused is the same either way. So, please, let's just drop the argument over anti-depressants.


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## pidge70

A voice of reason. Well put.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

HurtinginTN said:


> All right, you two. Please agree to disagree. I do agree that the meds reduced the "WTF am I doing" reaction. Reduced, not took away. They were not the cause, but COULD have been a contributing factor. That does not change the fact that she stole hundreds of hours from me and the kids to devote to playing games with that man. It does not change the fact that stole dozens of hours from us to talk to him on the phone. It does not change any of the facts of our situation.
> 
> Both of you are right. The meds could have reduced the anxiety related to doing something she knew was wrong. She still made that choice to do something that was wrong. I don't want to get into a pro- vs. anti- anxiety medication argument. I have taken Zoloft at times (the first month after finding the emails included). They are a terrific help in times of extreme stress.
> 
> The meds don't excuse her behaviour. They are a very small part of a very big problem. It doesn't matter much whether or how much they affected her judgment. The pain she has caused is the same either way. So, please, let's just drop the argument over anti-depressants.


Medications DO NOT cause behavior.

But they can reduce the reaction to behavior.

Such as a flat effect, so that emotions do not override bad decisions.

Can affect impulse control.

Can affect reasoning.

But they are not the cause of behavior, but can be contributing factors based on type of medication, dose and pre-existing conditions.

Get to the root cause of the problem - medication is not the root cause - it might have been a "player" to what happened - but the root cause is the lack of moral character and respect for you.


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## MarriedWifeInLove

My husband had a severe TBI in 2008.

It damaged a part of his brain that controls impulse.

His impulse control IS NOT what it used to be.

But - he has not cheated - not once.

It's being used as an excuse - and a lousy one at that.

Get your head out of the sand!


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## turnera

anon_4_now said:


> I never said it is 100% going to cause impulse control issues. I stated that it MIGHT and IT HAS BEEN PROVEN.


A one night stand is an example of poor impulse control. Hiding a prolonged affair is not.


----------



## HurtinginTN

MarriedWifeInLove said:


> It's being used as an excuse - and a lousy one at that.
> 
> Get your head out of the sand!


She is not using it as an excuse. In her mind, she's done nothing wrong, so there is no need for an excuse.

I also am not using it to excuse her behaviour. A few people independently brought it up at the same time, so there was a discussion about the part the meds played. It certainly was not the cause, but IN HER CASE, I believe it was a small contributing factor.

My head has been buried very deeply somewhere, yes. Some days now, I can see the light of day. I will find the exit sooner or later.


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## HurtinginTN

Well, next step on 180. The get sexy part should include directions to hit the tanning bed, especially for men. That kills 2 birds with one stone. A tan is more sexy, in my opinion. Also, there are lots more hot women in line than men. lol 

I signed a month to month agreement today at lunch. I'll have a nice dark tan in time for summer. Now, if I can get this 6-pack to cooperate, her time to decide if she wants me or not is dwindling. Last summer, I took the kids to the river every weekend. I was 200 pounds and a little tan. This year, I'll be 165-170, in shape, with a great tan. I believe the bikini clad beauties may notice a little more.


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## Jellybeans

HurtinginTN said:


> She is not using it as an excuse. * In her mind, she's done nothing wrong,* so there is no need for an excuse.


Even worse.

Oh, TN. I wish you could see things from the outside in.


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## joe kidd

Jellybeans said:


> Even worse.
> 
> Oh, TN. I wish you could see things from the outside in.


:iagree: Sir hate to say it but some folksy wisdom might be in order....Time to sh*t or get off the pot. People only treat you the way you let them.


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## pidge70

I think we all do Jelly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> Even worse..


I agree 100%. That is the worst part. I don't think she'll ever get it. I believe that may be a common problem with EA's. "Well, I never slept with them, so it wasn't an affair." I believe EA's are much worse for several reasons, this being one of them. If people haven't been through it, many say , "Well, at least it wasn't physical." or "It was just on the internet." Also, the emotional attachment is very strong in EA's compared to some PA's. 

Often, when I first found out and only saw some of the enormous iceberg, I would tell her that she had given this man her heart. She may not have given him her vagina, but her heart is infinitely more important. The only reason it didn't get physical is the distance, I am fully convinced.




Jellybeans said:


> Oh, TN. I wish you could see things from the outside in.


Jellybeans, I am starting to have a more objective view of my situation. Thus the hard 180. I'm not making changes for her. I'm making them for me. I don't know if she'll ever decide that she wants to work on the marriage. I don't know if I'll be willing to if she decides to.

Right now, I am going to take it one day at a time. I am concentrating on becoming a better person. I am doing things for myself and my kids. These things need to be done, regardless of whether or not the marriage works. To be honest, I really doubt there is a chance at this point. I am living and adjusting as my marriage is over, as it truly is. If we were divorced right now, I wouldn't do anything differently. I would still heal before dating or anything. That healing is in process. I would still be giving her a large chunk of my paycheck (Got to love this legal system). 

As long as there is no contact with other man, we can live under the same roof for now. Don't worry, I am not just taking her word for it. There are verification processes in place. IF something hits, then I will deal with it at that time. Until then, I will work as though she is telling the truth on that part.


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## KathyGriffinFan

I'm sorry to state the obvious, but I just have to get this out...your wife is damn lazy!!

She stays home (and you work) but you have to clean up and vacuum and pick up after the pets? 

If you two choose not to stay together, she's going to have the reality hit her like a ton of bricks...no one to help wash the dishes, no one to clean up, no one to be her lil' errand boy- except her own self.


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## turnera

If there's one thing I've noticed after following hundreds of affairs over the last 5-10 years, it's this (and note, this is not a blanket statement of all SAHMs, so no tomatoes): 

Women who stay at home and who have husbands who, in addition to going to work, come home and then do HOUSEWORK/TAKING CARE OF FAMILY, are ten times more likely to cheat than those women whose husbands come home after working and expect the wife to have done it all by the time he comes home.

Why? Because those women grow to despise their husbands, even if they don't know it, for being WEAK.

And then they go out looking for a 'real' man who CAN take her breath away.


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## HurtinginTN

KathyGriffinFan said:


> I'm sorry to state the obvious, but I just have to get this out...your wife is damn lazy!!
> 
> She stays home (and you work) but you have to clean up and vacuum and pick up after the pets?
> 
> If you two choose not to stay together, she's going to have the reality hit her like a ton of bricks...no one to help wash the dishes, no one to clean up, no one to be her lil' errand boy- except her own self.


:iagree:


----------



## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> If there's one thing I've noticed after following hundreds of affairs over the last 5-10 years, it's this (and note, this is not a blanket statement of all SAHMs, so no tomatoes):
> 
> Women who stay at home and who have husbands who, in addition to going to work, come home and then do HOUSEWORK/TAKING CARE OF FAMILY, are ten times more likely to cheat than those women whose husbands come home after working and expect the wife to have done it all by the time he comes home.
> 
> Why? Because those women grow to despise their husbands, even if they don't know it, for being WEAK.
> 
> And then they go out looking for a 'real' man who CAN take her breath away.


So in other words, the more a husband gives, the weaker he is. How does that make sense?


----------



## turnera

Have you read No More Mister Nice Guy yet? There's your answer.

Psychologically speaking, men and women have DNA from caveman days. When the stronger men survived, the weak didn't. So the women picked the strong ones, to survive, too. And procreated. And their daughters wanted strong men; those who didn't and picked weak men, got eaten and didn't procreate. On and on.

Women NEED strong men. When they see you asking her if you need to fold the towels or vacuum, she dislikes you. She may THINK she likes this nice man, but she doesn't. And the more you do it, the more needy, weak, desperate, clingy, unsure you seem. And the more she CRAVES a strong man to come in and sweep her off her feet, even if he's doing the wrong thing by cheating with a married woman. Even if SHE's doing the wrong thing by cheating on her husband. If he would have only been man enough for her, she wouldn't NEED to be looking elsewhere. 

All this, of course, going on subconsciously. If you told her this, she'd think you're nuts.

Have you ever looked at the romance novels so many SAHMs read? FULL of swashbuckling, strong men who TAKE what they want, and take the woman's breath away. There's a reason those books are so popular. When I worked in a bookstore and the bimonthly delivery came in, those women stood in line to get their next fix of 15 'new' stories, wishing it was happening to them.

Should you help her? Sure. 

But if she's a SAHM, YOU have NO business doing laundry, vacuuming, or anything else like that. WTH does she DO all day?

Each of us needs to earn our way. If you make her life so easy that she doesn't even have to contribute her fair share to your family, you're contaminating her situation. And a lot of times, it leads to cheating.

Why do you think the men who catch their wives cheating and say 'Get the hell out of here, I'm disgusted,' get their wives back more often? Because THAT is the man she wanted in the first place. And when the coach started making moves on her, she swooned. 

It SHOULD have been YOU making moves on her, but you were too busy vacuuming.


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## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> Have you read No More Mister Nice Guy yet?


It came in the mail today. I had looked at a few bookstores, but they didn't have it in stock. I will start reading it when I get home. She got woke up by the delivery and called me.

"You got a package." 
"It must be my books." 
"More books? We have tons of books around here. We better not have these books already." 
"We don't. You wouldn't have bought these."

No More Mister Nice Guy and Hold Onto Your N.U.T.S.


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## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> But if she's a SAHM, YOU have NO business doing laundry, vacuuming, or anything else like that. WTH does she DO all day?


She does home school our 3 kids.


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## turnera

So what? She doesn't dress for work, she doesn't commute, she doesn't have to take an hour for lunch, she doesn't leave the house from 6am to 6pm. 

She can FIT a load of laundry in every day. Geesh. I think she's got you brainwashed. Guilted you into thinking how easy your life is and how hard hers is.

I was just thinking yesterday, as I stood in my yard watering my plants due to our Texas drought, _at 7pm because that's the only free time I have in the day_, that if I were a SAHM, I'd have the most amazing yard in the city. Because of all that TIME. And yet my next door neighbor IS a SAHM and her yard is barren. 

People can MAKE TIME for whatever they want.

Yours makes time for texting coach all day.


----------



## HurtinginTN

We got into some of that this morning when she called about the books. She had put a bag of clothes by the front door yesterday and asked me to take it to work today. (We take the clothes the kids have outgrown to my work. There are several here with kids slightly younger than ours.) I forgot this morning. She got onto me about "How hard is it to remember to take out the bag sitting by the front door?"

Whoa, good morning to you, too sweetheart.

"Have you been brushing the cats? You said you would brush the cats every day."

"No, I have not been brushing the cats. I have been working late this past week or so because I am finally getting my head on straight. I am very behind because I haven't been worth a s___ the past few months."

"So, again, you are not keeping your word. You said you would and you haven't been."

Well, that was more than I could take. I am a liar that don't keep my word because I said I would brush her cats every day and I haven't lately. I suppose what followed would be classified as an angry outburst.

"I am up and going hours before you every morning. As I leave for work each morning, you and the kids are still sleeping. You get to wake up when you feel like it. You check out when I get home and sit on your ass playing games and drinking wine. You expect me to take care of the kids, supper, etc. while you play. Actually, you are usually playing even before I leave work, much less get home on my hour + commute. What do you think I do all day? Do you think I do this because I like it? Who am I doing this for? It certainly isn't for me only. I give, give, give, give, and what the hell do I get in return?"

She hung up that point and we haven't talked since. Well, so much for a peaceful house. It needed to be said, but probably should have been in a better setting and better tone.


----------



## HurtinginTN

I finally talked to OM last night. I tried to call him yesterday, but he didn't answer, as usual. Surprisingly, he actually returned my call as I was driving home. He apologized and said he didn't know she was married for a long time. I believe that, since we had fought many times that she should tell him she was married if she was going to spend so much time with him. He said it was over and they had "decided to go their separate ways". He was apologetic.

Of course, the paranoia says there are several possibilities.

1. He though it was her who called using my cell phone. That is why he called back. However, he did talk to me instead of immediately hanging up when he heard it was me instead of her.

2. They are talking and he told her I had called him. They decided to try to throw me off track by him calling me back and acting apologetic.

3. They truly did end it when she said she did. They have not talked or had contact since. Since it was truly over, he felt the need to apologize.

Well, what is the vote? 2 or 3?


----------



## Lilyana

Why can't she brush her own damn cats? When you get home today, turn off her damn comp and tell her to get off her ass and brush her cats.. geez.. 

Shes the one that decided to have an affair.. stop cooking for her! Stop doing her dishes.. stop doing her laundry.. stop it stop it stop it! I did, my H now has pink socks  hahahaha I just make sure my kids and I are taken care of, if our spouses want to give emotions to other people that should be reserved for US, then they should feel the ramifications of it.. they should feel what its going to be like on their own!


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## Lilyana

Smoke and mirrors.. do not believe ANYTHING either of them tell you!


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## turnera

I am really really glad you let her have it. 

Could you have been more PC? Sure.

But she DESERVED what you gave her. 

And it's about damm time you started honoring yourself like that. Keep it up.

If she wants to be mad, let her. Let her try to figure out how to do everything by herself, when she's divorced. Hah.


----------



## turnera

The way it usually goes when the two have supposedly split up is...verify.

Believe nothing that you cannot verify.


----------



## HurtinginTN

One thing keeps going through my head today like a broken record. My 7 year old son the night we told them that Mommy has a boyfriend and don't know if she wants him or Daddy. "I don't want a different Daddy." Oh great, I haven't cried in days, but I feel the flood gates about to let loose thinking about him saying that.


----------



## Lilyana

I know.. from the mouths of babes...

My daughter told me the other night that the worst thing thats ever happened to her in her whole life is when we left daddy a year ago....

On the verge of that happening again and it makes me feel like H has ripped my heart and my childrens heart right out of our chests all over again.

(Hugs) Hurt, let your baby(s) know that you love them and no one else will ever be their daddy!


----------



## Shooboomafoo

Believe in the time you most certainly WILL be able to be with him. 
There will NEVER be another "Daddy". Its all I have to go on. It is the only sustinance left available to me.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Shooboomafoo said:


> Believe in the time you most certainly WILL be able to be with him.
> There will NEVER be another "Daddy". Its all I have to go on. It is the only sustinance left available to me.


What are you doing on my post? It was your thread that started that record in my head! j/k "Mommy doesn't love Daddy anymore" is a very hard phrase to tell a kid.

I know, those kids are the only things keeping me going some days. I do tell them every night, no matter what happens between Mommy and Daddy, I will always be their Daddy and she will always be their Mommy. We both love them very much and it has nothing to do with them. I always have told my kids often that I love them and I will always love them, no matter what.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Lilyana said:


> (Hugs) Hurt, let your baby(s) know that you love them and no one else will ever be their daddy!


I do let them know on a daily basis, in word and deed, that I love them. Whenever anything comes up about the marriage, I let them know that no matter what happens between me and their mother, I will always be their Daddy and I will always love them and be there for them.

I bought a Monopoly game last night on the way home. I played it with the kids for a couple of hours until bedtime. Maybe we'll finish it tonight. I have been spending even more time with them lately. I suppose a good doormat should cut back on that time with the kids to brush those damn cats.


----------



## Lilyana

I've thrown myself into doing things with my kids lately. I signed up to help out with the end of the year program so am at the school 2 days a week practicing songs with the kids...

We have a big weekend coming up, i had a gift certificate for a free hotel room for one night.. we are using that on saturday going to take the kids.. swimming and free breakfast lol... friday we have our softball league and sunday we are going to the circus.

That way there also isn't much time for me to sit and stew.. cuz I gots too much to do! Being a Mommy


----------



## HurtinginTN

Lilyana said:


> That way there also isn't much time for me to sit and stew.. cuz I gots too much to do! Being a Mommy



Yes, staying very busy with the kids is the best therapy around.


----------



## turnera

HurtinginTN said:


> I have been spending even more time with them lately. I suppose a good doormat should cut back on that time with the kids to brush those damn cats.


I do believe you're getting it! :smthumbup:


----------



## HurtinginTN

I've started reading No More Mr. Nice Guy. Man, I don't know how someone wrote a book about me without meeting me. It's unreal how much of it fits so far.

I had a good counselling session today. We talked about how she feels "like a shell" and "empty". I've hurt her so bad the past few months she doesn't feel anything toward me. lol The twilight zone authors couldn't have dreamed up this stuff. The difference between her reality and my reality is incredible. Of course, my reaction to her affair is what drove her to not have feelings for me. Now, what led to the affair in the first place? lol

Still hitting the gym, church, counselling, tanning bed, etc. Also still doing things I like for the first time in a while. Pit, I went turkey hunting a couple of weekends ago and found my first ever shed antler. It's only 3 points, but still it was exciting. I believe I had a shot on him this past season right about where I found the shed. I wasn't expecting a deer there, so I had my rifle still slung over my shoulder. I jumped a buck and he was gone in the brush before I could get a shot. It may or may not have been the same one, but the size is about right.

Oh, careful with the tanning beds. Those "unexposed" areas apparently burn pretty easily. Today, I was a little more covered. Also, watch the position of your head. I have an ugly white line across my neck from not stretching my head back. Nice tan with a little white line across my neck. lol Now, I'm really looking good. A white line on my neck with my red buns. lol At least no one will be seeing the red part anytime soon.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Ugh! She just called and asked how the counselling session went. I told her he invited her to come meet with him individually or with both of us. I told her we have 2 totally different realities. Our perception is our own reality. 

Her reality:

No matter what she did, she didn't deserve what I did. I asked what? Cussing her out for hours every night, grabbing things from her, dumping her drawers out, digging through stuff, pushing her around, telling her family. Everything I did was out of cruelty. Nothing she did was out of cruelty.

The reality related to these accusations: 

Our definition of cussing someone out must vary dramatically. Did we have arguments over this situation? Absolutely. Was it every night? No. Was it for hours when it did happen? Not usually. Did I cuss during these arguments? Yes, I was in the Marines and I do still cuss when I'm angry. Was I "cussing her out"? If damn affair, that SOB, what in the hell are you thinking, etc. is cussing her out, then yes. Admittedly, there were 2 or 3 times that I called her a B. But that is not every night for hours.

Grabbing things from her. There was a time or two I grabbed the affair phone from her hand.

Dumping her drawers out. I dumped her drawers into a suitcase and put it on the front porch one night when she went to call lover boy. I dumped them on the floor one night when it looked to me like she was about to go call loverboy. It looked like she was about to get the affair phone out of one of the drawers.

Digging through stuff. Yes, I have systematically searched for that damn phone.

Pushing her around. She has thrown that out several times. Each time I ask her when I have pushed her around. Each time she refers to me using my physical strength to keep her off of me. One time when printing the phone records. She clawed the heck out of my face trying to prevent me from printing the records of her affair phone. I have a picture. (That is one of the mean things also. Taking a picture of the large scratch on my face.) By defending myself in these few instances, I was "pushing her around". 

Telling her family - Well, yes. When she refused to end the affair, I exposed it far and wide. I have no regret for doing that.

I was cruel in the way I talked to her. I said, "Don't you think it was cruel to look me in the eye and say you are going to call your lover boy? Don't you think it was cruel to ask me to pay for a rental car so you could drive across the freakin country to meet your lover boy? 

She is angry at me for not feeling remorse for these things. I "justify" my actions because of what she did. No matter what she did, she didn't deserve what I did. How bassackwards is that?


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

Wash your hands of this crazy fu*cking b*tch. 

lol. sorry, I have a headache and my tolerance for this sh*t is low today... and I'm angry with your W for being a stupid c*unt.

Ok, that wasn't helpful of me. but fu*ck that! and f*ck all these nutbags cheating spouses... 

Ok, sorry... I need a nap.


----------



## Jellybeans

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Wash your hands of this crazy fu*cking b*tch.


:rofl:

Pit is on a roll today.

TN, she is still feeding yu the same lines. Faulting yu for everything. Guess she didn't like her family finding about her cheating ways. Well..then she shoulda cut the affair off. Instead, she chooses to keep the same ol same ol still up.


----------



## KathyGriffinFan

HurtinginTN said:


> Ugh! She just called and asked how the counselling session went. I told her he invited her to come meet with him individually or with both of us. I told her we have 2 totally different realities. Our perception is our own reality.
> 
> Her reality:
> 
> No matter what she did, she didn't deserve what I did. I asked what? Cussing her out for hours every night, grabbing things from her, dumping her drawers out, digging through stuff, pushing her around, telling her family. Everything I did was out of cruelty. Nothing she did was out of cruelty.
> 
> The reality related to these accusations:
> 
> Our definition of cussing someone out must vary dramatically. Did we have arguments over this situation? Absolutely. Was it every night? No. Was it for hours when it did happen? Not usually. Did I cuss during these arguments? Yes, I was in the Marines and I do still cuss when I'm angry. Was I "cussing her out"? If damn affair, that SOB, what in the hell are you thinking, etc. is cussing her out, then yes. Admittedly, there were 2 or 3 times that I called her a B. But that is not every night for hours.
> 
> Grabbing things from her. There was a time or two I grabbed the affair phone from her hand.
> 
> Digging through stuff. Yes, I have systematically searched for that damn phone.
> 
> Pushing her around.
> 
> Telling her family.
> I was cruel in the way I talked to her. I said, "Don't you think it was cruel to look me in the eye and say you are going to call your lover boy? Don't you think it was cruel to ask me to pay for a rental car so you could drive across the freakin country to meet your lover boy?
> 
> She is angry at me for not feeling remorse for these things. I "justify" my actions because of what she did. No matter what she did, she didn't deserve what I did. How bassackwards is that?


Sh-t, how does she expect you to react to her EA? Sit there and take it up the a-s?? I'm sorry, what the hell did she expect? 

Gimme a number to contact her, I'd like to give her a stern talkin' to. Lol.
She's taking no accountability for her actions. If she was so tired of you, she should have spoken to you and given you an opportunity to work on those things (if you wanted to), rather than sit on her a-s and play games all night long while you raise the kids. She sounds like an immature lil' brat that is just pissed she didn't get her way.


----------



## HurtinginTN

KathyGriffinFan said:


> Gimme a number to contact her, I'd like to give her a stern talkin' to. Lol.


I told her a while back there is a lady at the hospital I work at that had asked why I lost so much weight. I told her about the affair. This lady is about 78 years old. She said, "I'd like to get my hands on her." lol That was the 78 year old talking about getting her hands on my wife.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Ok, sorry... I need a nap.



Go take a nap. You didn't even respond to the part of me telling you about the shed antler. That's just like you loyal spouses, only see the bad parts and not the good parts. lol


----------



## turnera

Don't forget about the fog babble, ok? NOTHING SHE SAYS is your old wife talking. It is ALL driven by the PEA floating through her veins. SHE IS AN ALIEN.

You're wasting your time and making you look bad by trying to engage with her about this until OM is out of the picture. Control yourself.


----------



## HurtinginTN

He is out of the picture and has been for a couple of weeks or so. The phone is no longer an issue. Also, she has committed to the marriage in words and actions. We had a great weekend. We still have a long way to go, but the infidelity is in the past and recovery has begun.


----------



## Jellybeans

Did she give you the phone, TN?


----------



## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> Did she give you the phone, TN?


Yes.


----------



## Jellybeans

Good. I am glad to hear that


----------



## HurtinginTN

There has been no contact with him for quite a while, at least on that phone. I don't believe there is another means of communication. I have several sources saying it has been over between them. My wife, of course. Her sister that she has been confiding in. They are becoming quite close through this. That is good, since their relationship had been strained in the past. The OM apologizing and saying it was over. The phone records, etc.

Her sister-in-law also told me yesterday something else my wife had told her recently. My wife said, "My husband has a sexy new haircut, is getting a sexy body and a sexy tan, and has sexy new clothes." My wife told me for the first time in a long time, if ever, Saturday night that I looked "sexy". Her actions matched her words. I like this 180 thing.


----------



## The 13th_Floor

HurtinginTN said:


> There has been no contact with him for quite a while, at least on that phone. I don't believe there is another means of communication. I have several sources saying it has been over between them. My wife, of course. Her sister that she has been confiding in. They are becoming quite close through this. That is good, since their relationship had been strained in the past. The OM apologizing and saying it was over. The phone records, etc.
> 
> Her sister-in-law also told me yesterday something else my wife had told her recently. My wife said, "My husband has a sexy new haircut, is getting a sexy body and a sexy tan, and has sexy new clothes." My wife told me for the first time in a long time, if ever, Saturday night that I looked "sexy". Her actions matched her words. I like this 180 thing.


Whoa, that came out of nowhere. Don't **** it up...


----------



## Powerbane

The 13th_Floor said:


> Whoa, that came out of nowhere. Don't **** it up...


Yeah - don't F this up Hurt!

I'll mail ya later in the week if I get a chance. 

Good to hear she's coming around. Stay on the 180!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HurtinginTN

Powerbane said:


> I'll mail ya later in the week if I get a chance.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sounds good. I hope everything is going well for you.


----------



## HurtinginTN

The 13th_Floor said:


> Whoa, that came out of nowhere. Don't **** it up...


Yes, it did. I was at the end of my rope. Perhaps she knew that. I had actually left with the intention of going to a bar this weekend over that darn phone. I told her I refuse to be in a relationship where she keeps things hidden. Our marriage is over until she decides to commit to it. I said it has actually been over for quite a while.

She called and we talked while I sat in the parking lot awhile. I decided two wrongs don't make a right and went back home. Then we talked for a while and ended up having a great night.

Perhaps it took her knowing I was gone to get her to really think about things.


----------



## KathyGriffinFan

HurtinginTN said:


> There has been no contact with him for quite a while, at least on that phone. I don't believe there is another means of communication. I have several sources saying it has been over between them. My wife, of course. Her sister that she has been confiding in. They are becoming quite close through this. That is good, since their relationship had been strained in the past. The OM apologizing and saying it was over. The phone records, etc.
> 
> Her sister-in-law also told me yesterday something else my wife had told her recently. My wife said, "My husband has a sexy new haircut, is getting a sexy body and a sexy tan, and has sexy new clothes." My wife told me for the first time in a long time, if ever, Saturday night that I looked "sexy". Her actions matched her words. I like this 180 thing.


:smthumbup:


----------



## paramore

just be careful Hurt...they can blindside you, he did about noon today.


----------



## HurtinginTN

I saw your thread. I am sorry for you. 

I know that it is possible she is "managing" me. I don't know if that feeling will ever go away. However, this weekend was a hell of an act if it wasn't genuine. It's going to be tricky. On one hand, I just want to forget it all happened and move on. On the other hand, I want to guard my heart.

I'll stop snooping and continue the positive changes I have made. I'll run with it as if it is absolutely genuine, which I hope it is. If it isn't, then I'll still be becoming a better person.


----------



## Eli-Zor

I assume she gave you the passwords to the phone , if not why not ? If she is being transparent she should give you all. 

Stay on course, if she is indeed being honest and committed to the marriage the recovery journey is going to be tough.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> Stay on course, if she is indeed being honest and committed to the marriage the recovery journey is going to be tough.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:


----------



## turnera

HurtinginTN said:


> Perhaps it took her knowing I was gone to get her to really think about things.


Well, yeah, that's about exactly what we tell each and every one of the betrayed spouses who come here for help...

Glad it's working. Just remember that cheaters OFTEN backslide and spark up old affairs again when they're feeling weak or down, or you two hit a glitch. Be very vigilant. 

And NEVER stop working on your marriage! NEVER take it for granted.


----------



## paramore

just be careful H, it took me giving mine the space, support, and all the love I had to get him to feel down.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

I'm wishing you well buddy, I really am.

I'm entirely sceptical. Maybe I'm jaded. I'm not buying yet. 

But, I realize that my own experinces have colored my judgements on many issues and I wouldn't dream of raining on your parade. 

I'm still gonna play the part of the loyal guard dog here (*pit*bull as it is.. so not too much sunshine and rainbows from me... lol.

Please keep your guard up and head out of your backside my friend !. I'm happy for u!


----------



## Grayson

Glad to "hear" it, Hurting. Hope it works out. Not to be too cynical, though, but keep a watchful eye out. It was after I thought we'd resolved our issues and were on a smooth road to recovery that I got another nasty surprise.

Shout if you need anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lilyana

Ok, this change came right out of friggin nowhere!!! 

Ummm I'm very leary.. and thinking you had better watch your back Hurt. I've never seen a WS make a turn around on a dime like this. Possible she isn't trying to suck you back in so you don't go, and once shes got her hooks into you again, she can go back to doing her thing?

I don't mean to sound cynical.. but goodness.. it came out of nowhere, not even left field!

I hope it really does workout for you both. But remain cautious!


----------



## paramore

yeah, be careful, my husband was home and found out that he had been in contact with the last EA for "awhile" after he broke it off with her. I gave him his things this morning, and with tears in my eyes, I said I love you and willing to work on this marriage when you want to come home, and then I sent him a text stating no contact, asking him to ask his sister to be a mediary with the children. This is gonna be so hard.


----------



## turnera

Many cheaters just find better ways to cheat AND keep their spouse on the line, too, to cake eat. The more you tell her what you want and need, the easier it is for her to fake-fulfill it.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I'm wishing you well buddy, I really am.


Thank you.



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I'm entirely sceptical. Maybe I'm jaded. I'm not buying yet.


I'm pretty skeptical myself. It seems almost too good to be true, actually. It will certainly take time to re-build trust.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Grayson said:


> Not to be too cynical, though, but keep a watchful eye out. It was after I thought we'd resolved our issues and were on a smooth road to recovery that I got another nasty surprise.
> 
> Shout if you need anything.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I suppose that is the hardest part. This weekend (well, at least the second half) was great. I am somewhat fearful of another nasty surprise. It's like I had come to the point where I was completely ready to move on. I suppose I need to keep that attitude in a way, but also work on meeting her emotional needs, etc. I am becoming stronger and not basing my feelings on the status of our relationship.



Lilyana said:


> Ummm I'm very leary.. and thinking you had better watch your back Hurt. I've never seen a WS make a turn around on a dime like this. Possible she isn't trying to suck you back in so you don't go, and once shes got her hooks into you again, she can go back to doing her thing?
> 
> I don't mean to sound cynical.. but goodness.. it came out of nowhere, not even left field!
> 
> I hope it really does workout for you both. But remain cautious!


Yes, that certainly is possible. Maybe even likely. I don't know. I don't think she will ever get her hooks in me as deeply as they were. I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing. She gave me a glimpse of heaven on earth Saturday night. She likes the changes I've made. I like her reaction to the changes I've made. I still have doubts of how long it will last. Serious doubts. I guess that is what everyone says. Trust takes time to be re-built. 



paramore said:


> yeah, be careful, my husband was home and found out that he had been in contact with the last EA for "awhile" after he broke it off with her. I gave him his things this morning, and with tears in my eyes, I said I love you and willing to work on this marriage when you want to come home, and then I sent him a text stating no contact, asking him to ask his sister to be a mediary with the children. This is gonna be so hard.


Paramore, I will pray for you and your children. I hope your husband comes around soon.



turnera said:


> Many cheaters just find better ways to cheat AND keep their spouse on the line, too, to cake eat. The more you tell her what you want and need, the easier it is for her to fake-fulfill it.


I'm all too aware of this fact. Sometimes, ignorance is bliss. However, I don't have that anymore. Really, though, I probably wouldn't trust anyone at this point. If I was in another relationship, I would likely have these trust issues from what I've been through. I don't think we are out of the woods yet. This weekend was a great step forward, but I know we have a long way to go. I have to try to find a balance between being cautious and watchful and being smothering and snooping.


----------



## turnera

What is SHE doing to make up for, and prevent a recurrence of, what she has done?


----------



## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> What is SHE doing to make up for, and prevent a recurrence of, what she has done?


Not contacting that man for one. Not keeping a hidden prepaid phone. Giving me time and attention. Being more affectionate. Opening up to me instead of someone else.

She hasn't yet agreed to marriage counselling, but we are spending more quality time together.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Skip the MC start by reading the articles on the MB site , fill out the emotional needs questionairs have her commit to the marriage by words and deeds. Monitor her carefully , this has been a rather rapid change in your wife. 

Good luck
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> What is SHE doing to make up for what she has done?


:smthumbup: I had been around the block a time or two before marriage. Saturday night was absolutely the best time in the rack of my life. She totally blew my mind. I'd say that went a long way to make up for a lot of stuff, especially if there are repeat performances. :smthumbup:


----------



## paramore

Good luck man, I need to decide how long I am going to give him time to pull his head out, I have told him that when i am gone, I am gone....no phone calls no visiting, go back and forth on a permanent intermediary or short polite phone conversation when it comes to the children. I can't/won't be friends with him if it truly ends.


----------



## turnera

HurtinginTN said:


> :smthumbup: I had been around the block a time or two before marriage. Saturday night was absolutely the best time in the rack of my life. She totally blew my mind. I'd say that went a long way to make up for a lot of stuff, especially if there are repeat performances. :smthumbup:


 Great. So she knows she can rock your world and then she doesn't have to really do anything else to make up for what she did. Smart.


----------



## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> Great. So she knows she can rock your world and then she doesn't have to really do anything else to make up for what she did. Smart.


It's a great start, but it will take more than that to heal this marriage. The trust will take a long time to come back. That won't heal in the bedroom. 

Being transparent will help in the trust area. Her transparency came before the fun started.

Besides, what could possibly make up for what she did? You can't turn back time. You can't erase the past. You can only live in the moment and move forward. That is not to say that I have not learned from my mistakes. I will no longer be a doormat, no matter how awesome the nights are. I will continue to be cautious and watch. For now, I am going to run with the assumption that the affair is over and she is committed to the marriage. If I find out I'm wrong at some point, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. 

I still don't trust her. Even with the new evidence that it is over, part of me says it might not be. That will take time.


----------



## turnera

What could make up for it, it I were in your shoes, would be:
Her writing a No Contact letter that YOU approve and send yourself.
Her handing over her phone immediately to you any time you ask, randomly, without hesitation.
Her erasing the contact info from OM and any other potential OM from her phone and computer.
Her showing you that she has made arrangements so that she will never even accidentally come into contact with him again. For the rest of her life.
Her finding, signing up for, and attending with you marriage counseling.
Her finding, signiing up for, and attending personal counseling to find out why she was capable of cheating in the first place, so it won't happen again.
Her finding a good polygraph company and signing up to take one, to prove to you she's not still lying.
Her contacting her parents and siblings and letting them know - in front of you - that she strayed and hurt you, and that she's sorry and is working on making things right.
Her arranging for a postnup agreement that says if you ever catch her cheating again, she will walk away from everything and you keep everything.

These things will prove that she's serious and not stringing you along. 

Refusal to do these things should be cause for kicking her out and making her earn her way back home.


----------



## The 13th_Floor

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I'm wishing you well buddy, I really am.
> 
> I'm entirely sceptical. Maybe I'm jaded. I'm not buying yet.
> 
> But, I realize that my own experinces have colored my judgements on many issues and I wouldn't dream of raining on your parade.
> 
> I'm still gonna play the part of the loyal guard dog here (*pit*bull as it is.. so not too much sunshine and rainbows from me... lol.
> 
> Please keep your guard up and head out of your backside my friend !. I'm happy for u!


Listen to Pit, definitely don't let your gaurd down! She could still be cake eating and you could still be nothing more than her "second choice." I see people congratulating you. Why, I hope because you made a teeny tiny bit of progress, not because she's BACK. She aint. Keep up the 180.


----------



## lordmayhem

HurtinginTN said:


> Not contacting that man for one. Not keeping a hidden prepaid phone. Giving me time and attention. Being more affectionate. Opening up to me instead of someone else.
> 
> She hasn't yet agreed to marriage counselling, but we are spending more quality time together.


How have you verified that there is no contact? Do you have a keylogger installed on the computer? There's always the possibility that she's taken it further underground. She needs counseling, otherwise there is the possibility that the next time this happens, the OM may not be several states away, but several miles away.

Don't fall into a false sense of security from all the sex in your Hysterical Bonding period.


----------



## HurtinginTN

OK, my gut tells me she is still communicating with him. I don't know how or when, but my gut says he is still in the picture. Is your gut instinct ever wrong? Is this paranoia? Is this the reason reconciliation is very tough, since the trust level is zero? 

I have played my hand prematurely so many times, she knows all of my tricks. Every time, it went deeper underground. Can you ever truly know that it is over? I know, the polygraph route supposedly would be the most telling. Perhaps that will be required.

Do I give it time and remain careful and observant? IF she is that deep underground, she will slip up sooner or later. I don't think it is time to spring the nuclear bomb of a polygraph. I just don't know if I'm crazy or my gut is accurate.

Continue the 180 and keep working on myself? That is hard. It was easy doing the 180 when I thought it was still going on. I was done with my relationship and was working on getting things in order to end it. Now, I have that small glimmer of hope that the marriage can be saved. I want to work on the marriage and open myself back up to her. However, I don't want to get crushed again.

I told her last night that my gut says she is still contacting him. If she is, I would rather her tell me now while I'm still somewhat crushed. I don't want to re-build only to be crushed again. 

So, do I assume it is over and act accordingly? Or do I assume it is still ongoing and act accordingly? Keep my feelings toward her closed off or open myself back up to her? Wow, it seems harder right now trying to decide which way to go than it did early on. The pain isn't nearly as deep as the wounds are healing, but I am somewhat at a loss as to what to do now.


----------



## Lilyana

My advice...

Tread lightly, gaurd your heart, never trust 100%, and always trust your gut.


----------



## Jellybeans

TN, what is making you think they're still in contact?

My gut is hardly ever wrong, sadly.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> TN, what is making you think they're still in contact?


Nothing overt. Nothing I can put my finger on. She has been taking walks at night. However, she is trying to lose weight and had been walking a lot lately. She had been walking with the kids during the day, but started taking her walks at night.

I have gone out to "walk the dog" a few times at appropriate times during her walks. Each time, I have been able to observe from afar on her approach back to the house. Each time, she has been on her regular walk route with nothing in her hands. The timing and my observation tie to the normal walk route. Also, the sweat level matches. However, my gut says something ain't quite right about it. Perhaps I am being paranoid.


----------



## Eli-Zor

You are not paranoid, discretly follow her , with the dog of course. She may be going to a friend who is covering her arse and supporting the affair. I am back to this change is to sudden, her behaviour is out of kilto with a wayward wife who has lost emotional contact with the OM. Particularly since you had serious difficulty breaking the affair, it does not add up. Do not fret about it , assume they have found another way to talk and keep tabs on her, if we are wrong happy days however.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Ask a friend to follow her on her walks.


----------



## Lilyana

Or better yet.. volunteer to go on these walks with her


----------



## HurtinginTN

Lilyana said:


> Or better yet.. volunteer to go on these walks with her


I do. Actually, we do. My 9 year old daughter cries her eyes out when Mommy goes on these walks. My wife says she needs to get out of the house and have some time alone. I can understand that since she is with the kids all day. My daughter is extremely clingy and doesn't want Mommy out of her sight. About half or more of the time she's gone, I am trying to calm her down. She has thrown quite a fit the last couple of times.

My wife says she wants to go on the walks for some time alone. That is the problem. It is certainly justifiable. It is good to be alone sometimes. It makes logical sense. However, I can't get the thought out of my head that is just an excuse.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

your not wrong dude. I didnt have the heart to piss in your cornflakes when you announced ur wife's recent change of heart and your excitement.

Her behavior and this recent turn about don't even come close to the "SCRIPT" for a recovering DS, or anything remotely close. They do lend themselves to several other much more realistic scenario's though... You won't like hearing any of them.

I know that everyone is different and people are complicated... but, _that's the thing_. DS's and affair situations are not. These are addicts. So highly predicatable it borders on creepy. 

You have to have noticed that almost every, if not every DS script and storyline is the same right? There is a reason. Along that same vein, a healing addict at the level of dependance your wife has shown will follow a script, a extremely predicatable process of internal healing takes place. Behaviors change gradually, tell tale emotional "events" show themselves... That's not happening. Your gut is tipping you, to where your self protecting mind _doesn't really want_ to go... Cause the truth sucks, and it hurts. 

Protect yourself dude. Your still a step behind, You have to get one step ahead of her. Keep trying to reconcile _if you must_, maybe you just haven't had enough pain and misery to face letting go... whatever. Don't you feel the _tick, tick, tick_ thing? Just back off emotionally. When that things goes off you don't want to be right in the blast radius. Maybe it turns out to be a dud, but that thing can't be trusted. Back off.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Back off.


You are talking about backing off emotionally, correct? Keep up the 180 as if it is over. As Eli-zor said before, my marriage is over until she commits to recovery (if that ever happens). Yes, I want very much to believe last Saturday night. If that had kept up, my trust would probably be re-building.

I will continue the 180 and continue my observations. My gut says that they have just gone deep underground. I don't see how it could possibly survive so deep down. They can't spend nearly as much time together as they were. Also, he is still several states away (I am assuming). I suppose it is possible he has moved here, but I don't think so from everything I saw from him over these past few months. If they are still involved, it will come out before long.

She's mad at me today for saying I think she is still involved with him. I have total freedom and she is trapped in the house all day every day. She deserves to get out of the house too. That is my problem. That comment is very true. I'm glad she is getting out of the house instead of sitting in front of the computer. However, with her sneakiness over all these months, it sure looks like it is to contact him.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Her behavior and this recent turn about don't even come close to the "SCRIPT" for a recovering DS, or anything remotely close. They do lend themselves to several other much more realistic scenario's though... You won't like hearing any of them.


I know I won't like hearing them. What are they?



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> You have to have noticed that almost every, if not every DS script and storyline is the same right? There is a reason. Along that same vein, a healing addict at the level of dependance your wife has shown will follow a script, a extremely predicatable process of internal healing takes place. Behaviors change gradually, tell tale emotional "events" show themselves... That's not happening.


Yes, it is scary how many of the posts on here I could have written myself, including yours. What are the signs of a recovering addict that should be showing up? Remorse, I suppose would be one. What else?



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Your still a step behind, You have to get one step ahead of her.


Any ideas on how to pass?


----------



## turnera

Does she take her phone when she walks? Can you monitor the phone use?


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## The 13th_Floor

HurtinginTN said:


> You are talking about backing off emotionally, correct? Keep up the 180 as if it is over. As Eli-zor said before, my marriage is over until she commits to recovery (if that ever happens). Yes, I want very much to believe last Saturday night. If that had kept up, my trust would probably be re-building.
> 
> I will continue the 180 and continue my observations. My gut says that they have just gone deep underground. I don't see how it could possibly survive so deep down. They can't spend nearly as much time together as they were. Also, he is still several states away (I am assuming). I suppose it is possible he has moved here, but I don't think so from everything I saw from him over these past few months. If they are still involved, it will come out before long.
> 
> She's mad at me today for saying I think she is still involved with him. I have total freedom and she is trapped in the house all day every day. She deserves to get out of the house too. That is my problem. That comment is very true. I'm glad she is getting out of the house instead of sitting in front of the computer. However, with her sneakiness over all these months, it sure looks like it is to contact him.


God damnit, TN! Yes! Pit is saying stay away from her emotionally. You told her she's still in love with him? How is that a 180? If I carried a purse I'd smack you with it!

TN, my ****ing god, dude. What's the sense of getting your wife back to her senses just for you to start an argument with her? KEEP UP THE 180!


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## The 13th_Floor

HurtinginTN said:


> Any ideas on how to pass?


Uh, gee, a 180 maybe?


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## Eli-Zor

Do not allow yourself to get paranoid , carry on with the 180 and for goodness sake stop telling her what you think she is up to, she gets ahead because you give her the information. Did you buy the books " his needs her needs " and "surviving an affair" both give you tips on how to deal with a wayward spouse and examples on how to initiate recovery. Set a time limit for yourself, then let her know what you expect the process for recovery to be e.g what is she going to do to ensure that your marriage is affair proof and rewarding. 

Here is my take again , your wife is still in the affair and is deeper underground or they have a plan to wait it until it all blows over. Do not let your guard down and have a plan of your own if or when you evidence it. Keep to the original suggestion of sending your children to school and add to it, perhaps it includes her going to work. Every step in this plan is to strengthen you if she breaks the marriage boundaries.

Lastly stop talking, she is one step ahead because you keep forewarning her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

What exactly - exactly - have you spoken to her about since the 'turnabout'?

What did you say you needed from her? 

What did she say she was willing to do?

What HAS been done since then?


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## The 13th_Floor

Eli-Zor said:


> Do not allow yourself to get paranoid , carry on with the 180 and for goodness sake stop telling her what you think she is up to, she gets ahead because you give her the information. Did you buy the books " his need her needs " and "surviving an affair" both give you tips on how to deal with a wayward spouse and examples on how to initiate recovery. Set a time limit for yourself, then let her know what you expect the process for recovery to be e.g what is she going to do to ensure that your marriage is affair proof and rewarding.
> 
> Here is my take again , your wife is still in the affair and is deeper underground or they have a plan to wait it until it all blows over. Do not let your guard down and have a plan of your own if or when you evidence it. Keep to the original suggestion of sending your children to school and add to it, perhaps it includes her going to work. Every step in this plan is to strengthen you if she breaks the marriage boundaries.
> 
> Lastly stop talking, she is one step ahead because you keep forewarning her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Please listen to this poster, I'm begging you... I said the exact same thing, did I not, TN? Open your eyes, bro.


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## The 13th_Floor

turnera said:


> What exactly - exactly - have you spoken to her about since the 'turnabout'?
> 
> What did you say you needed from her?
> 
> What did she say she was willing to do?
> 
> What HAS been done since then?


The turnabout has only been like a week. His wife is not ready for any of these kinds of questions or boundaries. His wife is BARELY starting to SLIGHTLY come out of the fog and you honestly think he should have these answers from her? Of course not, which is why she's currently pissed off at him for making accusations.

He gets her a tiny bit closer, then scares her off.


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## The 13th_Floor

The 13th_Floor said:


> Whoa, that came out of nowhere. Don't **** it up...


Nevermind, you ****ed it up... Try again!


----------



## Powerbane

Hurt - I'm about 2 mins away from driving up to kick you in the ballzzzz!!!

You better keep to the 180 and listen to these good folks!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson

HurtinginTN said:


> She's mad at me today for saying I think she is still involved with him. I have total freedom and she is trapped in the house all day every day. She deserves to get out of the house too. That is my problem. That comment is very true. I'm glad she is getting out of the house instead of sitting in front of the computer. However, with her sneakiness over all these months, it sure looks like it is to contact him.


That's not your "problem"...that's your natural reaction to the pattern of behavior that she's established. It's a concept that my wife has trouble with, too. She sometimes gets upset if I even remotely question the truth of what she says and has to be reminded that SHE'S the one who piled lie upon lie when it comes to her EA's and PA.

So, you may need to remind her - as gently or bluntly as is appropriate - that it's not your responsibility to go back to trusting her as you did before she established these patterns...it's her responsibility to demonstrate that you can trust her again. Your responsibility is to establish the guidelines that can rebuild that trust and to review the evidence fairly.

Meanwhile...listen to your gut. It tends to be right more often than it's wrong.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The 13th_Floor

Powerbane said:


> Hurt - I'm about 2 mins away from driving up to kick you in the ballzzzz!!!
> 
> You better keep to the 180 and listen to these good folks!!!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


What ballz... Hhh, okay, sorry. I guess TN has some balls; he just needs to locate them! 

Sorry, I've been drinking tonight, it's Friday.


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## paramore

LOL!!!! it's not even 4 o'clock here


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

HurtinginTN said:


> I know I won't like hearing them. What are they?


Lots of sinister stuff. Hidden phones, agreed on "breaks" or cool down periods to get you under control and get "the master plan" back on track... BTW, did you ever figure out what her "master plan" was? did she discuss it? Trust me SHE HAD(has) ONE. Script commonly is somehow seelessly replacing you with OM. Probably something along the lines of divorce TN, get house, OM moves into your spot. ALso maybe a replacement "drug" or new OM(s), lot's and lot's of mind bending evil with a fogged addict. 



HurtinginTN said:


> Yes, it is scary how many of the posts on here I could have written myself, including yours. What are the signs of a recovering addict that should be showing up? Remorse, I suppose would be one. What else?


Read up of addiction recovery and some of the behaviors, ask some of the others like Eli-Zor some of the commonalities specific to marital recovery and some common "events"...

I assume you are already familar with the acute withdrawl symptoms. Presumably, when you first cut your W off from her OM you saw the nuclear meltdown/venom spitting demon that took over your wife's body... After the acute stuff...

The most common post-acute withdrawal symptoms are:

Mood swings 
Anxiety 
Irritability 
Tiredness 
Variable energy 
Low enthusiasm 
Variable concentration 
Disturbed sleep 

Post-acute withdrawal occurs because her brain chemistry is gradually returning to normal. As her brain improves the levels of her brain chemicals fluctuate as they approach the new equilibrium causing the above symptoms. 

*edit* also read This thread about remorse signs. Simple fact, no remorse/Not over. 



HurtinginTN said:


> Any ideas on how to pass?


Demand that your pu$$ywhipped emotions that have the steering wheel pull the fu*ck over. Get your emotions out of the drivers seat, and let your god given male logic drive. Tell the emotions to get in the backseat and shut the fu*ck up!.


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## turnera

The 13th_Floor said:


> The turnabout has only been like a week. His wife is not ready for any of these kinds of questions or boundaries. His wife is BARELY starting to SLIGHTLY come out of the fog and you honestly think he should have these answers from her? Of course not, which is why she's currently pissed off at him for making accusations.
> 
> He gets her a tiny bit closer, then scares her off.


That's not what I meant. I'm interested in the exact way the 'giving up the affair' went down, so I can see if I can see where she's making up the lies and pretending to come back.


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## HurtinginTN

The gut was right. Friday night, I mentioned taking the kids to the carnival in town. She seemed too enthusiastic for me to do that. A well-placed VAR got a hit. 

I told her I want a divorce. My gut says she is still in contact. She vehemently denied it. I played a portion of the tape. She broke down and cried her eyes out. She don't want to lose me. I said, "You sure could have fooled me."

I was calm, but firm. She called him (again) to end it. I said it needed to be in my presence. She denied, but I accepted as my backup plan would allow me to hear it anyway. However, technical difficulty failed me. I didn't get that conversation. It was, however, only 5 minutes compared to the previous 2 hour one.

She told me the story. She gave up the phone because they were no longer using it. He was calling our home phone. I had been consistently checking the home phone bill and the caller ID. She was deleting the caller ID entries. She showed me how she was doing it. Therefore, there was no evidence trail. Only the VAR would have picked it up, which it did.

She agreed to go through "Surviving an Affair" together and marriage counselling. She did show true remorse (at least it looked more like remorse than anything she has shown before.)

We will see. There has been no contact over the weekend (since Friday night). I am pretty sure of that. Today, I am at work, so she may try to sneak in a call. 

He is still in Colorado. I have the passwords, etc. I will go through the book with her and continue to monitor. We will go to marriage counselling. I will do that much. However, I seriously doubt that trust can be re-built at this point. This time, she not only lied to me that it was over, but she lied to my daughters, my son, her family, etc.

I will continue my 180 and preparing the home for sale, etc. I will also be saving and preparing for either a legal separation or divorce. Those are the only 3 ways to get her out of the house - selling it, separation, or divorce.

I'm not enthusiastic at reconciliation at this point. She has given me all that I asked so far (since Friday). This may very well be past the point of no return.


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## pidge70

What was her reason for not calling him in front of you? If she can't give you that much consideration how can you trust anything she says? I am so sorry your "gut" was right.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhereAmI

WHY did you not say, "If you refuse to call him in front of me, I will be filing for divorce tomorrow." 

You've just confirmed for her that she's in control. She probably called him to say she's picking up a phone tomorrow and will hide it somewhere in the park to contact him on her walks. C'mon man!


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## lordmayhem

It's disgusting the amount of effort that they commit when taking the affair deeper underground. Your gut was telling you it was still going on, and it was right. She even got mad at you for say she was still in contact with OM. She broke NC. She will probably break NC again.

At this point in time, it will probably do no good for her to call OM in front of you to tell him that it's over, because now she has demonstrated that she cannot be trusted. She would probably tell him anyway that you made her do it. 

Just be careful for falling for the crocodile tears. It doesn't matter if she SEEMS remorseful, you already know that she can and will lie straight to your face, your children, and family.


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## turnera

WhereAmI said:


> WHY did you not say, "If you refuse to call him in front of me, I will be filing for divorce tomorrow."
> 
> You've just confirmed for her that she's in control. She probably called him to say she's picking up a phone tomorrow and will hide it somewhere in the park to contact him on her walks. C'mon man!


 Yep.

You caved AGAIN. She must REALLY think you're stupid now.


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## HurtinginTN

WhereAmI said:


> WHY did you not say, "If you refuse to call him in front of me, I will be filing for divorce tomorrow."


I can not divulge that information at this time. There was a reason that I will elaborate on at some point in the future. Please just leave that part at that for now.


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## HurtinginTN

Powerbane said:


> Hurt - I'm about 2 mins away from driving up to kick you in the ballzzzz!!!
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


lol. When you get up this way, you better let me know. I'd love to drink a beer or two and give you more of the details. Let's make it around the square, maybe at the vet? lol


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## Eli-Zor

As a start set time aside for one to one time with her , do not go to MC it is to early and if the really big if , she has stopped the affair she is going to go through some pretty serious withdrawal . Let your family and hers know she was still in the affair. As part of the requirements for recovery she must tell you everything, answer any question you ask, you in turn must be a bedrock of strength and not lose it even if what she says hurts you. She must feel secure telling you the truth, during the one to one let her know that as part of the validation of the truth you will be arranging a polygraph, keep to that line, do not give her any timeframes , be loving, be humble and do not tell her what you are doing othan trying to save your marriage and family. 

A bit of writing for her, she writes a letter of apology to your family, hers and the OM's admitting her deceit and commitment to you and your marriage.

High boundaries, this is not punishment this is trust , trust has to be earned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> BTW, did you ever figure out what her "master plan" was? did she discuss it? Trust me SHE HAD(has) ONE.


No, she has not discussed it. I did find out the 2 hour supposed breakup never occurred. When I got the phone, I checked the records. There were several attempts that night and 1 minute calls (I am assuming leaving voice mail), but no conversations over 1 minute. It never stopped or slowed down at that time.

There haven't been other calls on the cell phone since she "gave" me the battery. However, it was a prepaid phone and the balance was too low to use it. Loverboy apparently is also a cheapskate. He put $15 in it and didn't refill it when it ran out.

That is probably the time frame they worked out the calling on the home phone. Give hubby the cell phone to put his mind at ease. Continue everything as normal with an untraceable method of communication.

As far as a long-range plan, I have no idea what she is thinking. I have repeatedly told her that he will never be around my children. There are too many red flags that say he is not suitable to be involved at any level with my kids. That will never happen.

They have had at least one fight. I heard a voice mail he left apologizing for "last night." "I was a jerk". I have no idea what happened, but at least she has already seen Romeo ain't perfect. I'll go back to tie the dates to my other notes and backup to see if I can figure that one out.

Again, I am pretty much done. She is going to have to really show me something if this is even going to have a remote possibility. She has shown so far she is working on it. We'll see how long that lasts.


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## Eli-Zor

Do yourself a favour and have your phone company bar all incoming and outgoing calls to and from his state, sadly I think they will be in contact again even if it is briefly and him calling her. Do your children know the affair is ongoing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> Do your children know the affair is ongoing?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, our daughter came downstairs while we were discussing it. I told my wife to hold off until she went back upstairs to play. She didn't. My daughter wanted to know what Mommy kept asking for. I told her I had a tape of Mommy talking to her boyfriend tonight while we were at the carnival. I told her Mommy never stopped calling him as she had promised both of us.


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## Eli-Zor

It is always best to tell the truth, good for you, your children know they can trust you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> As part of the requirements for recovery she must tell you everything, answer any question you ask, you in turn must be a bedrock of strength and not lose it even if what she says hurts you. She must feel secure telling you the truth, during the one to one let her know that as part of the validation of the truth you will be arranging a polygraph, keep to that line, do not give her any timeframes , be loving, be humble and do not tell her what you are doing othan trying to save your marriage and family. ]


She was answering questions Friday night. I was strong and didn't lose it. I asked a question yesterday and she asked me if I knew what day it was. I wasn't supposed to ask her questions about it on Mother's Day. That just showed how selfish I was by not giving her a break on Mother's Day. I pointed out that it had been less than 2 days since she was on the phone with lover boy and this was an opportunity that we had with the kids gone. They had gone to their grandparents for a couple of hours. She's mad that I asked and got aggravated when she didn't answer on Mother's Day. I told her I wasn't angry about whatever the answer was going to be. I was angry that she isn't being open about it. Hiding anything at all will definitely not build any trust.



Eli-Zor said:


> A bit of writing for her, she writes a letter of apology to your family, hers and the OM's admitting her deceit and commitment to you and your marriage.
> 
> High boundaries, this is not punishment this is trust , trust has to be earned.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She'll never do those letters. She is too stubborn.


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## Eli-Zor

You cannot live like this she does not appear even remotely remorseful , she has had time to harden herself and thinks she can carry on as if nothing is wrong. Try again tonight, tell her you want the whole truth, if she declines then carry on with the 180 and get ready to move on without her. She is either on the marriage bus or she gets off.

Be calm, when you are ready take the step , let her fall hard.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

How can I legally prevent the OM from ever being around my kids? I believe someone has said that can be put in the divorce documents. Is that true? I WILL NOT allow my children to be around that man. I would prefer to do it through the legal system. I guess I just have to talk to a divorce attorney about it?


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## Powerbane

Check mail when you get a chance Hurt. 

And pay attention to Eli-zor!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

You can place a stipulation in separation and divorce documents that your children must not be around the OM , she can challenge it , you in turn can hold out for as long as you can. I suggest you identify the OM by name to your family, burn your wifes bridges.

Be patient , plan each step and methodically move forward. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

She just called me at work to tell me she wants a divorce. She is tired of being controlled by me and the children. She has no freedom. She cussed at me for a good 30 minutes or more. 

I am done. I just need to figure out the best way to get it done.


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## Powerbane

And odds are she got off a call with him all fired up by him.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Yes indeed I suspect they have been in contact again, be calm, don't agree or talk divorce follow your plan in the background, do not let her bait you, keep a VAR on you some wives make false claims to the police. Keep your emotions under control , you have let it slip before it is now critical to say little and behave impecably. Do block those incoming and outgoing calls.

Remember she is welcome to leave without the children, do not force her hand. There is logic behind all this, stay positive and focused. I cannot stress how important it is not to bite the bait , do not not argue, threaten or agree any form of seperation with her , no relationship talk, if she pushes talk about the weather or a movie , babble back.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

HurtinginTN said:


> She just called me at work to tell me she wants a divorce. She is tired of being controlled by me and the children. She has no freedom. She cussed at me for a good 30 minutes or more.


:rofl: HAHHAHAHAHHA. Sorry... don't mean to laugh. That was very predictable. 

HAHAHAHHAHAAHAHHHHHHAAAH!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!! LOL!!!

I'm not laughing at you, Im laughing at my memory of going through that multiple times. 

*YOU ARE HERE*











Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I assume you are already familar with the acute withdrawl symptoms. Presumably, when you first cut your W off from her OM you saw the nuclear meltdown/venom spitting demon that took over your wife's body...





HurtinginTN said:


> I WILL NOT allow my children to be around that man. I would prefer to do it through the legal system.


Hey look at the bright side, if it happens that you end up doing something stupid outside of the legal system I think at this point you could use the "battered wife syndrome" defense...  

lol, sorry man... Just lightening this up for you. I promise someday you will laugh at all this stuff too...


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## Eli-Zor

Follow the 180 your very actions will be noticed. You must take the tension out of the air, the affair is falling apart, she is angry , good . Let it burn her out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

Eli-Zor said:


> keep a VAR on you


Listen to that.

If she hasn't gotten another "fix" between her last tirade and when you see her (probably will), she will attack you again... What you will hear/she says should be documented.

It's inadmissable in court (unless on the tape you clearly tell her you are recording it) but it's something you want documentation of. Some of the things my W said in her withdrawl tirades were mind boggling and jaw dropping.


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## turnera

Did you call her family and tell them she's still cheating?

Actually, in Texas you are allowed to record your own conversation with someone without telling them. There was a lawyer on tv the other morning talking about it.

Hurt, you are in control now. SHE wants a divorce. That means that, to GET it, she will have to agree with what YOU want, or end up duking it out in front of a judge. So tell her:

"Fine. You can have a divorce on THESE conditions: (1) YOU leave and the kids stay with me. You can have visitation, but they stay here and you move out. (2) My children will NEVER be allowed to meet your lover boy. It will be stipulated in the divorce proceedings that, if you ever bring him around them before they all turn 18, you will be violating a judge's orders and XYZ will happen (whatever works where you are). (3) You can take whatever you brought into the marriage; everything else stays here for the kids and me. (4) Since you will not be having primary custody, any child support etc. will reflect it as such; you'll probably end up paying ME child support. Good luck."

Am I missing anything, guys?


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

turnera said:


> Actually, in Texas you are allowed to record your own conversation with someone without telling them. There was a lawyer on tv the other morning talking about it.


Yeah, most states you can legally record a 2-party conversation. As long as you are one of the parties. That makes it legal to do, but it's still inadmissable in court (divorce/custody cases). If you get on the tape that you informed them they are being recorded, it becomes legit evidence in a court of law.



turnera said:


> Am I missing anything, guys?


Nope, not that I know of. U covered the important facts as usual.


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## paramore

Hurt last sunday my H said we were over, that I deserved better, I didn't deserve to get hurt etc....a few nights later he was all "if we are ever going to work out" that was over a few days. Good luck bud.


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## Affaircare

#1--here is the site with the electronic surveillance laws in each state: Electronic Surveillance Laws For Tennessee specifically you can click HERE  and select Tennessee code, the Title 39 Criminal Offenses, Chapter 13 Offenses Against Person, Part 6 Invasion of Privacy 39-13-601.

As a general rule you would not be allowed to intercept or record her calls with the OM or emails with the OM, but anything between you and her, I would just suggest saying that from now on you are tape recording or video recording every discussion so that no charges can be brought against you falsely and that if she continues to speak with you, you'll consider that as approval to record. The end. Either she talks (giving her permission to tape) or she stops talking and walks away so there's no way she can make a claim for a restraining order. 

#2--I believe turnera got it on the nose. :iagree: :iagree: :iagree: with what she wrote. She's completely free to go but she's not dragging children and destroying home and family while she destroys herself. Bye! Bye! Pack for her, open a separate bank account, direct deposit to the separate bank account, and she's on her own--good luck with that. Don't let the door hit you in the a$$ while you leave.


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## HurtinginTN

Powerbane said:


> And odds are she got off a call with him all fired up by him.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Precisely what I thought and said. Of course, she vehemently denied it.



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> I'm not laughing at you, Im laughing at my memory of going through that multiple times.


I know. Looking back at the pages of phone records on the affair phone, there has never been an end. The 2 hour supposed phone call to end it never happened. She attempted to call him several times that night over the course of a couple of hours, but apparently he was passed out and couldn't answer his phone (he is an active alcoholic apparently). Maybe the venom spewing worse than ever is a sign that this one might actually be true. Just saying it could be.



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Listen to that.
> 
> If she hasn't gotten another "fix" between her last tirade and when you see her (probably will), she will attack you again... What you will hear/she says should be documented.


Yes, I had the VAR in my pocket.



turnera said:


> Did you call her family and tell them she's still cheating?
> 
> "Fine. You can have a divorce on THESE conditions: (1) YOU leave and the kids stay with me. You can have visitation, but they stay here and you move out. (2) My children will NEVER be allowed to meet your lover boy. It will be stipulated in the divorce proceedings that, if you ever bring him around them before they all turn 18, you will be violating a judge's orders and XYZ will happen (whatever works where you are). (3) You can take whatever you brought into the marriage; everything else stays here for the kids and me. (4) Since you will not be having primary custody, any child support etc. will reflect it as such; you'll probably end up paying ME child support. Good luck."



Yes, I left work very shortly after the phone call. She said several things that concerned me, so I went straight home. I called my father-in-law and asked him if I could bring the kids over. I told him I had found she was still in contact and she had called me very angry. I wanted to get the kids out of the house. I also called my sister-in-law to see if she was in town. I wanted a witness to the discussion. She said she would come over as well.

When I got home, my father-in-law and mother-in-law were there. My FIL was playing outside with the kids and my MIL was talking to my wife. I went in and got the 5th degree from my MIL. Of course, everything was my fault. As we talked further, many details had somehow been left out when my wife was talking to her. She seemed quite flabbergasted at some of the things her daughter had done. I believe she had played it off as being "just friends" and, being her mother, she believed every word. MIL knows better now. My SIL came in and we talked a little. She asked if I would go out so the girls could talk. I did.

That was the first thing I said when my wife said she wanted a divorce. "When are you moving out?" I reiterated that my children will never be around that man and that will be part of any separation or divorce documents.


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## turnera

So how did this all end up?


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## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> So how did this all end up?


Well, the in-laws left and we didn't talk much. I had to work on my side job, so I worked on that a bit. We did get into an argument when she was going to drive to Wendy's for supper. I told her she wasn't getting the keys because she had been drinking wine from the time the in-laws left. She said she had only had a glass, but I thought it was 2 or 3. Her "glass" is probably 2 or 3 of what you would get at a restaurant. The fairly large "glass" is filled to the brim. 

Of course, this was being controlling and she flew off with quite some venom. I went to pick up supper and didn't talk after I got home. I worked on my second job until bedtime and we haven't talked since. I have several hours to go tonight on the second job, so I left a note this morning saying I won't be home tonight. I'll work on that from here at the office after I get through working job 1. Job 2 closes at midnight tonight, so I have to finish it tonight. Since it will be bedtime or later before I got home anyway, I will get a room here. Besides, with my commute, a hotel may be cheaper than the gas. I told her that will give us some time to think about things. I'm not planning on calling her today or tomorrow. She may or may not call me. It will be late when I get home tomorrow night as well.

We'll see from there. I meet with my counsellor today also.


----------



## Eli-Zor

You are still fighting why? The 180 strengthens you, you arguing with her strengthens her. Your failing badly with this, next time try this , she wants to buy food after drinking, say let's go I will drive, pick up the keys and drive. Change your tactic, you have to even if is for the sake of your children to get control of this situation. 

Call tonight and talk to the kids, if she is there say good night and say "sleep tight" or something like that in a caring voice. Bite your tongue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Yeah, that could have been handled better.

But I thought you were going to have a talk with her? I thought you asked FIL to watch the kids so you could? 

What happened?


----------



## Eli-Zor

Have you barred the phone? No one is picking on you, you should create a list of to do's and follow them through. Without scanning your thread do you have a copy of the 180 or do you require a copy to be posted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## paramore

You know? I have thought about next time I see my H, ask him to see his affair phone, and smash it in front of him LOL!!!!! If he goes out and buys another, we can't afford it, he has a perfectly good cell on our plan to use. I would take great pleasure smashing it front of his face hehe.


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## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> Have you barred the phone? No one is picking on you, you should create a list of to do's and follow them through. Without scanning your thread do you have a copy of the 180 or do you require a copy to be posted.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not yet for reasons I will disclose at some point in the future on the phone.

I do have a copy of the 180. 

Thanks for all of your help.


----------



## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> But I thought you were going to have a talk with her? I thought you asked FIL to watch the kids so you could?
> 
> What happened?


We did talk, with MIL and SIL in the room to defuse the situation. We hit many points. Their advice was to not do anything hasty, to pray about it, and think deeply about the effect on the children. Some of their advice was sound. It is in line with the 180. 

They drove the point home pretty well that she has to leave the OM, agree to marriage counselling, etc. I will not push the marriage counselling for now. I'll let her think about things really hard the next few days while I'm gone. I will know if there is further contact with OM. I'll work harder on the 180 and see how things play out.

My counsellor suggested laying out what a divorce will look like for her. She thinks she gets to keep her life like it is, just having me out of the way. Maybe a dose of reality on what it will really look like would help. But that goes against the "no relationship talk" part, so I'll hold off for now on that discussion.


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## turnera

Maybe you could just draw up y'all's finances on a spreadsheet. Show her how the entire family income is already being spent.


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## Jellybeans

HurtinginTN said:


> My counsellor suggested laying out what a divorce will look like for her.


How about just SHOWING her what D will look like through actions. 

TN, you have let her cake-eat for far too long. 

What has changed?


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## turnera

I have to agree. You are being WAY too nice to her for nothing in return. Where is your indignation, anger?


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## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> How about just SHOWING her what D will look like through actions.



That is the first step of the action. Decide how we are going to split the property. I will try first for an uncontested divorce if we can come to an agreement on everything.


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## Grayson

Hurting, I'm sorry your gut was right, even if I'm not surprised it was right. Even if she's not truly an addict (of alcohol, sex/love or any other behavior or controlled substance) you'll find (and many here will probably agree) that right now, she's acting exactly like an addict whose addiction has been discovered. And, no...it's definitely not a pretty sight to behold. You're being given some great advice here...probably better than I would give. My own "addict" seems to be earnestly trying to overcome her addiction and make amends for what she's done, both to me and others in her past, but I remain vigilant.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HurtinginTN

Grayson said:


> Hurting, I'm sorry your gut was right, even if I'm not surprised it was right.
> 
> My own "addict" seems to be earnestly trying to overcome her addiction and make amends for what she's done, both to me and others in her past, but I remain vigilant.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Thanks! I'm not surprised either. Hang in there. I hear this can be overcome when the wayward spouse is remorseful, etc. Maybe someday I can state that with more confidence.


----------



## MrQuatto

turnera said:


> Did you call her family and tell them she's still cheating?
> 
> Actually, in Texas you are allowed to record your own conversation with someone without telling them. There was a lawyer on tv the other morning talking about it.
> 
> Hurt, you are in control now. SHE wants a divorce. That means that, to GET it, she will have to agree with what YOU want, or end up duking it out in front of a judge. So tell her:
> 
> "Fine. You can have a divorce on THESE conditions: (1) YOU leave and the kids stay with me. You can have visitation, but they stay here and you move out. (2) My children will NEVER be allowed to meet your lover boy. It will be stipulated in the divorce proceedings that, if you ever bring him around them before they all turn 18, you will be violating a judge's orders and XYZ will happen (whatever works where you are). (3) You can take whatever you brought into the marriage; everything else stays here for the kids and me. (4) Since you will not be having primary custody, any child support etc. will reflect it as such; you'll probably end up paying ME child support. Good luck."
> 
> Am I missing anything, guys?


I think TN can also file a restraining order against the OM for the family. That make calls to the house and him near the kids illegal. Unless I'm mistaken.

Q~


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## HurtinginTN

MrQuatto said:


> I think TN can also file a restraining order against the OM for the family. That make calls to the house and him near the kids illegal. Unless I'm mistaken.
> 
> Q~



I had asked that question a while ago. I was told that a restraining order is usually only issued if there has already been physical violence. Kind of a screwed up system, huh?


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## Eli-Zor

The closest you can come to a restraining order is laying a harassment charge, search the web for preconditions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

I know that, when people were spreading rumors about my husband, we had the option to slap a lawsuit on them to cease and desist. There may be something like that out there.


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## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> The closest you can come to a restraining order is laying a harassment charge, search the web for preconditions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



That might backfire on me. I imagine he saved all those voice mails I left him cussing him out. If I try to file harassment charges on him, he may reciprocate.


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## Shooboomafoo

Take a 401K loan (if you live in a community property state) and pay off as much debt as you can.
prepare for half of it going to her.
and perpare to be in good standing for the new home loan.


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## tacoma

I believe if you had simply had her served divorce papers this would have been over with ages ago.

She would have crumbled and you`d be well on your way to reconciliation.

I don`t know why so many betrayed spouses dance around what needs to be done.


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## Powerbane

Hang in there Hurt!


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## HurtinginTN

Powerbane said:


> Hang in there Hurt!



One day at a time. Got home late and she went to bed as soon as we got home. We didn't talk at all. We had a few short conversations the last couple of days. Short, to-the-point, business-like conversations. No talk of the affair or relationship. No fighting. Basically, nothing. 

I did talk to the pastor that married us last night at church. He is still at the church that we have been going to (me and the kids). My in-laws have always gone there and took the kids. I just started going again recently. I asked him to pray for our marriage, but couldn't get into details.

His wife pulled me aside shortly after and asked why my wife wasn't coming with us. I don't think she knew I had talked to her husband at that point since she was in a different room. I told her we were close to a divorce since she had been seeing another man. We talked for a while. I don't know what they will do, if anything. All of her family has talked to her. Her mother, of course, puts all of the blame on me, but that is to be expected. The rest of her family is supportive of me. 

It may very well be over with him this time. I will keep watching to see, but there has been no indication so far of any contact since Friday night. Even so, I may be past the point of no return from the level of deceit she has displayed.

She did give up the passwords Friday night. I have the printouts of the call logs. They are horrifying. I have compared some of the dates and times to my notes. They show a level of addiction that is quite shocking. Also, there were some voice mails she wasn't able to get and erase after I found and took the charger. They are quite disturbing. I have a copy of them as well (several, actually). I still have the phone, so she is not using that.

I am back to the barely being able to eat stage after seeing all of this. However, this time won't last as long, I'm sure. I've lost 4 pounds in as many days. One day at a time. That is what I keep telling myself.

My kids said they missed me when I stayed in a hotel Tuesday night. All 3 gave me great big hugs when I saw them last night. For their sakes, I will not push the divorce at this time. However, I will remain diligent in watching for any further communication between the two of them. As long as I don't get anything, I won't push the divorce at this point in time. I will continue on the 180 and keep making preparations in the background. If I get another hit, I will discuss it here before playing my cards with her.


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## Eli-Zor

Hang in there keep your eyes open and at this stage focus on yourself , if after a week or so she has not changed and actively working to repair the marriage plan for a big step, do this in your time, even if it takes months, plan plan plan , move monies each month in case you need a slush fund, run the 180 and do not let slip what you are doing.

You can't force her read the SAA book but you can leave it where she can see it. As for your mother in law , if she is not pro marriage ban her from your house and from seeing your children, if she says anything be nice and respond why would you want anyone around who is not actively supporting the marriage.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

If this is really over you have passed the easy step, recovery is very difficult and requires a lot of open honest communication, husband and wife time , listening and activly working on the marriage , two years on average, your wife best start doing some of the heavy lifting, over the next week or so try get het to register on the MB site, keep this site as your haven.

Be positive this can work out , so far she has worked to script , item outstanding is the OM he has had no consequences and will contact her again. A NC letter will help as if he does contact her you can charge him with harrassment despite your previouse voicemails.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

The calls and voicemails were probably worse than you had imagined. Sorry to hear that.

Sounds like you have a plan. I'm pulling for you. I agree with Eli-Zor, the OM has suffered no consequences. OM has lied to you before. Keep monitoring. *EXPECT* him to try and fish.


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## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> As for your mother in law , if she is not pro marriage ban her from your house and from seeing your children, if she says anything be nice and respond why would you want anyone around who is not actively supporting the marriage.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She is pro-marriage, just not pro-me. She told me straight up when we were talking, "She is my daughter. Of course, I will take her side. Why is she looking for another man?" Well, I told her I have admitted and did admit to her that I could have been a better husband. However, that does not excuse the affair. She has no idea how deep it was, but I did give her a few clues.

She hit the nail on the head. She said I have been a wimp. She don't understand how a man that led 40+ Marines in could just let his wife have total control over him. I agreed. I have been. I have very rarely, if ever, told my wife no. I admitted that I have done many things I knew weren't right in order to try to please her. I will be paying for those mistakes for a long time. We were mainly talking about financial mistakes at that point. Too big of a house, new instead of used cars, Stuff that fills every room of the house, paintings, jewelry, etc. And my wife fusses about not having any money now. That is because I was too weak to tell her no and went over my head in debt to try to please her. 

My MIL pointed out that is my fault. I agree. As she rightfully said, as the husband, I should have been the leader of the house. My wife pointed out that she didn't buy anything without asking me. I pointed out that I never said, "No", even when I knew full well it wasn't a good plan. I suppose part of it was that I always had high hopes of making more money. 

When I was self-employed, I had a streak where I could have made 10's, if not 100's, of thousands of dollars more than I did. That window of opportunity came at a time when my son was small and having many health problems. I stayed at home to care for him most of the time. I consider myself to be extremely blessed to have been able to stay home with my children so much their first few years. I was able to work basically a few days most months and a couple of weeks a few months per year and still make almost double what I am making now working 45+ hours per week with a weekly commute of 12+ hours. 

Changes in the health care system unfortunately took away that very unique opportunity. The point is that I could have made tons of money. I chose to put my emphasis on my family. Now, a major complaint is that we don't have enough money. 

I guess this is all off topic, sort of. I'm just sorting through my emotions and got carried away. Sorry to bore you all.


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## turnera

My brother's best friend married a somewhat rich woman who expected to stay at the same level. By the time she finally divorced him for not giving her enough money, he had 2 full-time jobs, got up at 4am to throw papers, and delivered pizza at night. All given to her. And their daughter turned out to be a spitting image of her mother. Because he never stood up to her.

Best that you know now.


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## lordmayhem

HurtinginTN, I can certainly identify with your situation. You are an exception to the marines that I've known, as you didn't take your work life home with you. As a 23 year Air Force vet turned LEO myself, I've seen way too many people in my time take their work attitude home with them. That's why so many in the military and law enforcement end up divorced. 

Is it possible that in your effort to separate your home life from your military life you overcompensated by accomodating your wife too much? Anyway, there are lessons to be learned from this situation.


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## HurtinginTN

lordmayhem said:


> Is it possible that in your effort to separate your home life from your military life you overcompensated by accomodating your wife too much? Anyway, there are lessons to be learned from this situation.


I most definitely 100% accomodated my wife too much. That could have something to do with it. What works with a platoon of Marines certainly does not work with a wife or children. lol Still, I should have used the leadership skills I cultivated in the Marine Corps in my marriage. I just should have used a different delivery system. There are many lessons to be learned here. I will come out of this a better man. Whether that is with her or without her I don't know at this point. But I will come out a better man.


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## lordmayhem

HurtinginTN said:


> I most definitely 100% accomodated my wife too much. That could have something to do with it. What works with a platoon of Marines certainly does not work with a wife or children. lol Still, I should have used the leadership skills I cultivated in the Marine Corps in my marriage. I just should have used a different delivery system. There are many lessons to be learned here. I will come out of this a better man. Whether that is with her or without her I don't know at this point. But I will come out a better man.


I don't doubt that you will be a better man even if this marriage goes south. If it does, you can still be the outstanding dad that you are and will make a lucky woman very happy and who will make you happy in return.


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## HurtinginTN

lordmayhem said:


> will make a lucky woman very happy and who will make you happy in return.


You mean that is supposed to go both ways? Wow, I am learning a lot. lol


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## The 13th_Floor

TN -

You're a Marine? I never would have guessed. Never in a million years! Dude, respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

The 13th_Floor said:


> You're a Marine? I never would have guessed. Never in a million years! _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah, give me a platoon of Marines and I can take a small city. Give me a 60 mm mortar and I can put rounds anywhere within a 2.5 mile radius. Give me an M16 and I can put rounds center mass consistently at 500 yards. 

Give me a wife and I'll screw it completely up. lol


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## HurtinginTN

lordmayhem said:


> As a 23 year Air Force vet turned LEO myself,


I forgot to mention something. Thank you for your service. 23 years? Were you in Desert Storm? I was guarding a Harrier base at one point in that war. I loved watching them land. Come in, hover, and go straight down. Take off was on a runway since they went out fully loaded. They were a little lighter coming back in.


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## Affaircare

That would be because you can't aim a wife with any accuracy.


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## paramore

LOL AF, Hurt, you will get through this, I promise you. With or without them we will survive. Your next relationship will be even better because you learned the hard way.


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## HurtinginTN

Affaircare said:


> That would be because you can't aim a wife with any accuracy.



:rofl:


----------



## paramore

yeah, that one made me lol too.


----------



## lordmayhem

HurtinginTN said:


> I forgot to mention something. Thank you for your service. 23 years? Were you in Desert Storm? I was guarding a Harrier base at one point in that war. I loved watching them land. Come in, hover, and go straight down. Take off was on a runway since they went out fully loaded. They were a little lighter coming back in.


Didn't deploy for that short one...but OEF/OIF is another story. I was gone so much I missed most of HS for the older one. I figured if my M could survive all that and an unaccompanied toure, we were rock solid. Didn't have facebook then, and not only did she slip on the slippery slope, she fell down hard on her way to her online EA.


----------



## The 13th_Floor

HurtinginTN said:


> Yeah, give me a platoon of Marines and I can take a small city. Give me a 60 mm mortar and I can put rounds anywhere within a 2.5 mile radius. Give me an M16 and I can put rounds center mass consistently at 500 yards.
> 
> Give me a wife and I'll screw it completely up. lol


Funny. I only did 5 years, awesome shot myself, but like you, I shot blanks in my marriage. I guess you can also say I shot "dummy" rounds, lol. 

To make matters worse, my wife cheated on me with a private in the Air Force. Oh the PAIN of knowing that... Okay, the pain is gone now, until next time...


----------



## Lilyana

Thank you all for your service


----------



## lordmayhem

The 13th_Floor said:


> To make matters worse, my wife cheated on me with a private in the Air Force. Oh the PAIN of knowing that... Okay, the pain is gone now, until next time...


Not to threadjack too much, but enlisted ranks below E-5 are Airman Basic, Airman (1 stripe) Airman First Class (2 stripes), and Senior Airman (3 stripes). So OM was an airman?


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## HurtinginTN

The 13th_Floor said:


> Funny. I only did 5 years, awesome shot myself, but like you, I shot blanks in my marriage. I guess you can also say I shot "dummy" rounds, lol.
> 
> To make matters worse, my wife cheated on me with a private in the Air Force. Oh the PAIN of knowing that... Okay, the pain is gone now, until next time...


5 years in the Corps? Semper Fi, brother. Too bad our wives didn't live by that motto, huh? For you non-jarheads, Semper Fidelis is the Marine Corps motto, meaning Always Faithful.

We had the big Marine Corps wedding. I was a platoon sergeant at the time. I had several Marines there. We walked under the swords on the way out and all of that. You know the part where you get to the end of the swords? The end man drops his sword and stops the couple. The next man smacks the bride (or groom for a female Marine getting married) on the rump (with a sword) and says Welcome to the Corps Maam (or sir). We should change the tradition to make the new spouse commit to the motto. lol

I thought you said your wife cheated on you with someone in the military. Is the Air Force considered part of the military? Just kidding, you fly-boys.


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## HurtinginTN

Lilyana said:


> Thank you all for your service


You're welcome, ma'am.


----------



## The 13th_Floor

HurtinginTN said:


> 5 years in the Corps? Semper Fi, brother. Too bad our wives didn't live by that motto, huh? For you non-jarheads, Semper Fidelis is the Marine Corps motto, meaning Always Faithful.
> 
> We had the big Marine Corps wedding. I was a platoon sergeant at the time. I had several Marines there. We walked under the swords on the way out and all of that. You know the part where you get to the end of the swords? The end man drops his sword and stops the couple. The next man smacks the bride (or groom for a female Marine getting married) on the rump (with a sword) and says Welcome to the Corps Maam (or sir). We should change the tradition to make the new spouse commit to the motto. lol
> 
> I thought you said your wife cheated on you with someone in the military. Is the Air Force considered part of the military? Just kidding, you fly-boys.


I was Army, but Semper Fi anyway. Yep, my wife's OM was an Airman. When I talked to him on the phone, he sounded more suited for the Salvation Army. Prick.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

HurtinginTN said:


> 5 years in the Corps? Semper Fi, brother. Semper Fidelis is the Marine Corps motto, meaning Always Faithful.


ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!! :rofl:

Talk about a f*cking joke. My wife's OM, my "friend" was a person I trusted and invited into my home. I took to heart the idea that "marines" and "friends" had some level of honor and deserved my trust. Part of the reason I allowed myself to be BRUTALLY GASLIGHTED for almost 2 years while my W was having an affair with him. Yeah, always fu*cking faithful.

Yep, I'm fu*cking bitter. Talk about a trigger! Anything military is a monsterous trigger for me and "Semper Fi / Marine honor talk" is the little red button on the mushroom cloud of thermo nuclear hurt and anger.

Sorry, no offense to those that don't deserve it. Had to get that out. 



HurtinginTN said:


> We had the big Marine Corps wedding. You know the part where you get to the end of the swords? The end man drops his sword and stops the couple. The next man smacks the bride (or groom for a female Marine getting married) on the rump (with a sword) and says Welcome to the Corps Maam (or sir). We should change the tradition to make the new spouse commit to the motto. lol


Maybe if my STB-exW marries this piece of sh*t we can get a special ceremony where they get to the end of the aisle and they stick those sword into mine and my son's backs. 

meh.

Again, no offense to those undeserving of my venom. It's a shame what this person as done in my soul to the entire idea of any sort of military honor.

:deep breath: + :sigh:

we'll be ok. (me & son). That just popped a big trigger there.

Carry on.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Maybe if my STB-exW marries this piece of sh*t we can get a special ceremony where they get to the end of the aisle and they stick those sword into mine and my son's backs.



Better yet, the two of them could get the sharp side instead of the flat side.

Sorry about the trigger. While most Marines hold true to Semper Fidelis when it comes to each other, more often than not it doesn't flow through to the wives. It's kind of a common thought, "I trust these men with my life, but I certainly don't trust them with my wife." 

I definitely understand your bitterness. Everyone that lives in Colorado is a piece of ****. lol 

I don't know if they still do it, because I have been out about 12 years. Not too long before I got out, they issued everyone cards. I believe they were called "Core Value Cards" or something to that effect. You were supposed to carry that and your ID in your left breast pocket. It had "Honor, Courage, Committment." I guess that POS Marine never even looked at his, because he missed all 3.


----------



## Grayson

No worries, Pit...I can relate. My wife's OM can't introduce himself personally or online without using the phrase "former military" as many times as possible. So, I can understand that one bad apple spoiling the whole bunch for you. He's got a bumper sticker that I see when I pass his car at work every day that says, "Thank a vet today...for your freedom.". And every day, I want to plaster my own sticker over that last part that says, "...unless he's f**ked your wife."

He's also a real piece of work in that he claims to have back and neck pain so severe that he's trying to get the VA to approve him for 100% disability...while at the same time trying to get them to approve him to return to active duty.

Scumbag.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HurtinginTN

OK. We will have a weekend together without the kids. We have the motorcycle class tomorrow and Sunday from 7:00 am to 5:00 pm. The kids are staying at their grandparents from tonight through Sunday night. We haven't really talked all week after the blowup Monday night. Also, I don't think there has been any communication. It is possible she has another prepaid phone, but I have no evidence of anything yet.

My question is - Do I initiate any conversation about the relationship? I am thinking about suggesting we start the book "Surviving an Affair" together. We have the book and I have read most of it. When I found the last call, she said she would read it with me. Should I just leave it alone, or bring up the book. We'll have tonight and tomorrow night home alone together.


----------



## Grayson

I would bring it up, if I were you. Our MC has given me the standing "homework" of not bottling up what I'm feeling abou our relationship and telling my wife what I need in order to rebuild our relationship. So...I do.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

No relationship talk. Show her that you can have a decent weekend before you try to educate her. If you see toward the end of the weekend that she's turned a corner and is fully into you, then MAYBE bring it up. Not before then.


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## The 13th_Floor

Hm, interesting. The 180 would mean not bringing up the relationship, but Grayson's MC sais to do so. Your sitchyations are different, but in my case, I wouldn't.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## The 13th_Floor

I agree with Tunera. If she's still in the fog, any relationship talk might push her away. I would keep up the 180 and have a great, confident, fun weekend. In my eyes, the more non confrontational days you have, the closer you'll bring her i.e. the more comfortable she'll feel about talking about the relationship. I'm still a noob at this though so tread lightly on my advice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Since a few dynamics have changed adapt , the SAA book is for her to read, run the 180 and somehow as she is not committed to the marriage do not enable her, cancel the motorcycle lessons , why? You do not want her to be mobile and conduct an affair using family funds.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> cancel the motorcycle lessons , why? You do not want her to be mobile and conduct an affair using family funds.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Well, I would have cancelled the lessons after hearing the conversation last Friday night. However, they are not refundable at this point. We already paid for the classes and can't get a refund. She won't be mobile with a motorcycle license for a while. It won't do any good until there is a motorcycle in the driveway. That won't happen right away, for sure. IF I was confident in the no contact, etc., we would probably get one soon. But, since I don't know if we will be staying married or getting a divorce, I'm not getting a motorcycle anytime soon.


----------



## Grayson

Are the lessons specifically in your names, or have you just paid for two sets of lessons? If the latter, what about inviting a friend or family member to take her place?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

Grayson said:


> Are the lessons specifically in your names, _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, specifically for the two of us and non-refundable at this point. We could have 10 days prior, but not now. We'll just go and see how it goes. I'm going to have fun, regardless.


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## Grayson

That's cool. Have a good time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HurtinginTN

Well, the time together went pretty well. The driving test was very stringent. You could get 20 points and still pass. I got 15, she got 21. She was very upset that she failed it by 1 point. She aced the written test with a 100 and I got a 95. We had a pretty good time together with no talk of the affair or the relationship.

Then, last night, she found that Spadester was back up. She made a new user name that we came up with together. I told her it was a huge trigger just seeing that website, but we didn't talk much about it. Then, it was time to put the kids to bed. Instead of turning off the computer as normal, she left it up.

I laid down with our daughters for a few minutes to get them settled down. My 9 year old is having some issues with sleeping in her own bed lately. I came back in and she had a few minutes left in a game. Nothing on chat or nothing looking abnormal. I got in bed. A few minutes later, the girls got up and I put them back in bed. I came back in and she was getting ready to start another game. I went off. 

Everything was looking better, then this damn website comes back up. It had been down for a while. Then she goes back to starting another 30 minute game at 11:00 pm. I said that damn game has caused us enough trouble over the past year. It comes back up and she shows where her loyalties lie. She turned it off and went to bed. 

The thing is that I don't even know if he was there. Just the fact that she was on it and playing so late was the pattern she had used with him. The same website, the same pattern, everything. Did I make a mountain out of a molehill? She did have a very rough weekend in not passing the class. She was very upset about that. Did I read something into it because of the triggers? Should I have just kept my damn mouth shut or should I have yanked the internet? Again, I feel like I have screwed up? Is blocking that site altogether a reasonable boundary or being controlling? Is this why reconciliation is the hardest part? I'm lost.


----------



## pidge70

She has to know that is going to be a trigger for you. Why on Earth should it be okay for her to go back to the site where her A started?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

Unbelievable.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Unbelievable.


My word to her exactly. Well, I believe I added a few letters between the n and the b.


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## Powerbane

I know I've told you how to make it so Spadester is inaccessible!!

Do it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

HurtinginTN said:


> My word to her exactly. Well, I believe I added a few letters between the n and the b.


Not what I meant. 

What she's doing, or I should say what her husband is enabling her to do is very believable. She's an addict. She's not even a recovering addict yet, she's still a full blown affair (dopamine) junkie. 

You really think she has any impluse control right now? Think you have triggers? Well her triggers are addiction triggers, likely still well beyond her abilty to control or even want to control. Here is your wife's brain right now. Even if she wanted to stop herself from "Looking" for him, it's highly likely she could. 

You putting a loaded crackpipe on her nightstand and walking away is what's unbelievable.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Powerbane said:


> I know I've told you how to make it so Spadester is inaccessible!!
> 
> Do it!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, before I implemented it, the site went down on its own. It has been down for quite a while. I'll find your directions again and implement them. Either that or discontinue the internet altogether. I'm not sure which one yet.


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## The 13th_Floor

Do you really have to ask if you over reacted? Did you really just tell us, after all that has happened, that you're lost? Block the got dayum site, yank the internet and be done with it!

Honestly, if that was my wife, I would have went right beside her, in her face and said, "get your ass off the computer and into bed, NOW." If she didn't listen, I'd have punched a hole in the monitor. At this point, what do you got to lose.

So she had a bad weekend? You've had a bad year, she'll get over it!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

OK, I'm 75% sure there is another phone. I have no hard proof, just several pieces of circumstantial evidence. I'm guessing I should just keep quiet until I have something definite? Here is what I have.

One of the voice mails from OM mentions another phone.

She went to Wal-Mart a while back to "buy our son some clothes." She did, but there was no urgent reason those clothes had to be bought that night. There was a VAR in the car and there was no conversation. However, there were a couple of beeps that I can not figure out what they were after she got back in the car. 2 or 3, not enough to dial a number and no convesation. But there was some sort of beep that was not the car.

On the recording from last Friday night, I don't remember hearing the phone ring. It would have rung if he had indeed called on the home phone. That file has been deleted, so I can't go back over it. However, it stands out now that I didn't hear the phone ring. That makes me think the story of him calling on the home phone was not the case that night. It did sound plausible at the time since she showed me how to erase the caller ID for an individual call. I'm sure that has been the case at some point, but apparently not that night. 

Her phone records, upon further scrutiny, show a definite pattern of calling him around 1:30 pm our time on weekdays. Apparently, this coincides with his lunch break. His step-mom had told me that he can't accept calls at work, but sometimes answers on his lunch break. When my daughter called me last Monday saying Mommy had gone for a walk, it was about that time of day. Also, I was home yesterday with my sick son. She asked me to run an errand about that time. I just called home at 1:30 and she was talking to my daughter. I called back at 1:45 and it rang 3 or 4 times before she answered. That is abnormal. Her calls to him on the old phone started around 1:30 and lasted for 20 or 30 minutes.

She was caught on a VAR just over a week ago. That is when she broke down and cried, gave up the passwords, etc. If she is still calling him on a prepaid phone, she would be extra sneaky so as not to get caught on a VAR again. Therefore, I don't know if anything would ever come up if I tried to use one.

If I confront her with these things, of course, she will deny them. I am just being paranoid. blah, blah, blah. I suppose I should just carry on and keep a close tab on times, etc. My gut is screaming that she is still in contact with him on another prepaid phone. Unfortunately, it has always been correct so far.

Suggestions? Confront or keep watching?


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## Jellybeans

What has changed, TN?


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## Powerbane

Randomly show up unannounced from work and watch or have someone else watch her during the time period. I'll bet she's still in contact. 

It's either on her person or outside the house. 


And seriously - kill the damn Spadester.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson

I'd say a keylogger on the computer is definitely called for. If she's drifting back to the game that was her initial primary channel to the OM, it bears watching. I'd definitely keep a watchful eye for other indicators of another phone. Like most cheaters, seems like she's learning from how she's been caught before and adapting to be more cautious.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bestplayer

Jellybeans said:


> What has changed, TN?


I want to ask the same question too .:scratchhead:


----------



## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> What has changed, TN?


Well, before, I knew she had an affair phone. Now, I suspect it and don't know if it's paranoia or actual.

Before, I knew she was still in the affair. Now, she has made some changes that indicate she is not. However, these things still make me strongly wonder if that is so. I wonder if I am actually over-reacting to innocent stimuli.

Other than that, not much has changed this whole damn time. She has convinced me a few times it was over. Each time, I later find it was a total lie. This time, I am not convinced.


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## Eli-Zor

Carry on snooping except this time when and it is a when you catch her pack her bags and send her to her mother.


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## Eli-Zor

Looking at your old posts, her behaviors, I don't think it is over


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## Eli-Zor

and block the site either on the router or create an entry in the host file pointing to the local machine, do you know how to do this?


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## Jellybeans

Jellybeans said:


> What has changed, TN?





HurtinginTN said:


> Other than that, not much has changed this whole damn time. She has convinced me a few times it was over. Each time, I later find it was a total lie. This time, I am not convinced.


It was a rhetorical question, TN. Because nothing has changed. She is still having her affair, you are still grasping at straws. Sheis not committed to you 100% and has not been for as long as I've been reading your thread. Nothing has changed.

You give the same, you get the same.


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## WhereAmI

HurtinginTN said:


> Well, before, I knew she had an affair phone. Now, I suspect it and don't know if it's paranoia or actual.
> 
> Before, I knew she was still in the affair. *Now, she has made some changes* that indicate she is not. However, these things still make me strongly wonder if that is so. I wonder if I am actually over-reacting to innocent stimuli.
> 
> Other than that, not much has changed this whole damn time. She has convinced me a few times it was over. Each time, I later find it was a total lie. This time, I am not convinced.


Your vagueness makes me wonder if she's changed at all. Are you possibly seeing change that's not there? Can you share with us what she's changed specifically? 

If she's not in mourning, she's still in contact. Her affair was/is serious. Her mourning period is going to be long.


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## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> and block the site either on the router or create an entry in the host file pointing to the local machine, do you know how to do this?


Yes, I have the instructions on how to do it. I was going to do it a while back, but the site crashed on its own. Now, they apparently have it fixed. I will block it now.


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## Jellybeans

WhereAmI said:


> Your vagueness makes me wonder if she's changed at all.


 She is still cheating:



HurtinginTN said:


> OK, I'm 75% sure there is another phone.
> 
> *Her phone records, upon further scrutiny, show a definite pattern of calling him around 1:30 pm our time on weekdays. *
> 
> *She was caught on a VAR just over a week ago. *



TN, my heart breaks for you. Because it's clear from the outside looking in you have no self-respect to let this continue on and on and on. It's sad.


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## HurtinginTN

WhereAmI said:


> Your vagueness makes me wonder if she's changed at all. Are you possibly seeing change that's not there? Can you share with us what she's changed specifically?
> 
> If she's not in mourning, she's still in contact. Her affair was/is serious. Her mourning period is going to be long.


There has been more intimacy the past few weeks. She did appear to be in mourning for a short time. Now she doesn't. Perhaps there was a brief break this time. I don't know. She did show remorse and mourning for a few days. I guessed when she said she would end it that it would last 3 or 4 days. It looks like I might have hit the nail on the head. 

I believe I had a false sense of security in something that led me to believe this one was for real. I have been cautiously optimistic, but now I am very doubtful.


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## Eli-Zor

> She did appear to be in mourning for a short time. Now she doesn't. Perhaps there was a brief break this time. I don't know. *She did show remorse and mourning for a few days*.


Far to quick, she should be distant, crying not wanting you to touch her for weeks.

She has reengaged with the OM. 

Do not react, get some plans together, when you find the phone or other evidence you act on the plan. She has to leave the house, your plan is what to do with the children as they must stay with you. 

Be very very patient and practice that Plan A and 180 , become a master.


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## Eli-Zor

Think of a drug addict going through withdrawal that is what your wife should be doing.


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## Eli-Zor

> She did appear to be in mourning for a short time. Now she doesn't. Perhaps there was a brief break this time. I don't know. She did show remorse and mourning for a few days.


The only other way this may be over is if she is overwhelming into you, it is called hysterical bonding , I somehow do not think that is what is happening


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## Jellybeans

TN, you actually have the perfect situation in a way to pull out of this mess and make her realize waht she is about to lose: her affair is online. She's never even met him. So if you were to file and tell her she can leave, where would she GO? Reality would set in really fast and hard for her and I bet she'd see the light.

But you keep doing the same. She knows she can have her guy on the side as well as doormat hubby at home to take care of the kids.

So not attractive. No woman is ever attracted to a man she does not respect. You need to stand up for yourself and I think you're going to let this run you into the ground until it reaches crisis levels and it will be far too late to salvage anything.


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## pidge70

IMO she's still playing you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

BTW HurtinginTN don't lose faith what your wife is doing is not unusual. When you have worked out what to do with the children and the finances have a very calm conversation with her ensure she knows there are no more chances, say nothing else not even what the consequences are.

Be that man who led men, speak clearly with authority but not in an aggressive way. 

After you have spoken to her let your in-laws know that she is still in the affair, if they ask how you know say when ready you will give them the details. 

Be cool, inside be logical and calculating, put a smile on and don't worry about her during the day focus on our job and children, she will slip up , they always do.


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## paramore

for sure mine did lol, tread carefully my friend.


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## HurtinginTN

Thank you for all of the responses. The last time I said I know it in my gut, the slip up was that very night. I suspect it will be sooner rather than later. I have connected several dots today that I had previously over-looked. That phone log is a freaking book. Now that I have discovered some pattern in the madness, I know more what to watch for.


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## HurtinginTN

pidge70 said:


> IMO she's still playing you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It certainly looks that way now.


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## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> I think you're going to let this run you into the ground until it reaches crisis levels and it will be far too late to salvage anything.



It may very well be there.


----------



## paramore

Yeah i got played, don't ignore that gut feeling, just don't act on it until you are for sure. I had had suspicions for a few weeks, but didn't jump until I had the proof right in front of my eyes, if I hadn't had the proof, he could have denied it and made me more of an anxious mess, and me doubting myself the way he'd had for awhile.


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## HurtinginTN

paramore said:


> if I hadn't had the proof, he could have denied it and made me more of an anxious mess, and me doubting myself the way he'd had for awhile.


I sure know that feeling. All too well. Therefore, my post from today. Without solid proof, I do doubt myself. With the responses here, it looks like my darn gut is right again. One day at a time.


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## lordmayhem

There are definitely some red flags showing up again, considering you know his work schedule and you know the patterns of when your WW was calling him. In my situation, I knew that OM worked between 7:30 pm to 3:30 am and off on Fridays and Saturdays. My wifes calls coincided with his schedule when I looked at the calling records. 

It looks like she is evading the VAR by calling OM during her so-called "walks" and that there is yet ANOTHER secret cell phone. They've taken it further underground, judging by all this evidence and the fact that her mourning period was so short. She is definitely the one pursuing him. 

It's up to you what you want to decide at this point and how much more you are willing to put up with. If you need concret evidence that she is still in the A with this OM, then continue your investigation and see if you can have her followed when she has these walks. Otherwise, you know what you should do. I'm sorry for you that this is still going on. So much disrespect for you, your marriage, and your children.


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## Jellybeans

lordmayhem said:


> It's up to you what you want to decide at this point and how much more you are willing to put up with. .


This was already said 25 pages & another thread ago.



lordmayhem said:


> If you need concret evidence that she is still in the A with this OM, then continue your investigation .


TN, a question: what if you find out she's still having an affair w/ 100% proof? What will you do? Wait until she ends it? Stick around? File?


----------



## turnera

Do you have a better system lined up in case you have to go through this again?


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## lordmayhem

Jellybeans said:


> TN, a question: what if you find out she's still having an affair w/ 100% proof? What will you do? Wait until she ends it? Stick around? File?


I hope he doesn't fall for the crocodile tears again. She cries her eyes out every time so she must be sincere.


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## HurtinginTN

Yes, she had another affair phone. I got a hit on Tuesday night. I was on my way to my in-laws to pick up my girls and have supper. I heard the tape with proof of another phone.

I told the in-laws (MIL, FIL, 2 SIL) that I was done. She is still in contact with him and has another affair phone. One SIL is an attorney and is in town for a week or two. I asked her if she wants some extra work.

The SIL's drove over to talk to her. I went for a walk with my FIL. I told him I am done. I have given her waaaaay too many chances and she continually takes it deeper and deeper underground. We talked for an hour or so. 

The SIL's came back and we talked for a while. They asked me to give it 6 months. She committed to them to break all contact with him and give our marriage a shot for 6 months, including marriage counselling, etc. I told them I have given and given and given. Marriage counselling will do no good as long as that man is involved in our marriage. They pointed out that she did commit to marriage counselling, which is something she had previously refused.

We talked when I got home. The second affair phone is gone. It is in the garbage, destroyed. She said they talked sense to her and, for the kids' sake, she will break all contact with him and commit to working on our marriage for 6 months. We will decide then. 

Well, I have very mixed feelings about this. Actually, no, I don't. My feelings say to divorce her now. 6 months more of a continuing affair will not happen. I told her and her sisters that the only way I will give it more time is if he is gone. Her addiction is so bad, I don't believe she can give it up.

My father-in-law made several good points. The only way this marriage has a sliver of a chance is an absolute miracle. Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, so he can raise this marriage from the dead. I said that Lazarus was probably much easier than saving this marriage.

She is going to counselling today. The second affair phone is demolished. I will know if there is further contact. I told her last night that I don't need the recorders. I have found that my gut is right on this matter 100% of the time. Even though she has become a master of deception in avoiding the VAR's, I will know it in my gut.

Well, go ahead and give all of the reasons I shouldn't give her one more chance again. I have only 3 reasons to give it a shot. They are 7, 9, and 10 years old.


----------



## Jellybeans

HurtinginTN said:


> The SIL's came back and we talked for a while. They asked me to give it 6 months. She committed to them to break all contact with him and give our marriage a shot for 6 months, including marriage counselling, etc.


With all due respect, your SIL isn't married to you. Your wife is. So it's your WIFE that needs to be begging you for another chance, not your SIL telling you give your wife her another chance. 

Your wife had demonstrated repeatedly that she is more committed to her affair than to your marriage. She is setting a horrible example for your children, as are you by tolerating this mess. Do you want them growing up thinking it's ok to f-ck around continuously in their marriage?

How many more chances? How much more disrespect? Sure, she "destroyed" this affair phone but who's to say it won't happen again?

My theory on the VAR is that she goes to Wal*mart or wherever she goes, on her walks and avoids the VAR. That is why the other night when you checked you could hear beeping but no convo. She's hip to you. I think the beeps you were hearing were her deleting the call log ont he "affair phone."

Reading your posts, I envision a long ago defeated man who doesn't respect himself and let's the one person who is supposed to love him treat him horribly and walk all over him again and again. 

There is really nothing more to say, TN.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> That is why the other night when you checked you could hear beeping but no convo. She's hip to you. I think the beeps you were hearing were her deleting the call log ont he "affair phone."


That does make sense. Thank you for bringing that up. I couldn't figure that one out. That is most likely what it was.


----------



## pidge70

Haven't you already put almost a year into this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lilyana

Why would you wait for another 6 months? This is not your SIL or FIL's marriage.. it is you and your wifes... she hasnt stopped in how long.. what makes ANYONE think another 6 months will matter?

Get out now before you endure more of her crap.. enough is enough.. put your foot down and move on!


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## The 13th_Floor

TN -

I think it's time to turn into the drill sergeant from Full Metal Jacket. I know you've seen that movie! Either give it 6 more months with an attitude, or divorce that addict tomorrow. You have no other options. Pull the 180 THE RIGHT WAY for your KIDS, or just divorce her, man...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HurtinginTN

pidge70 said:


> Haven't you already put almost a year into this?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, she has been communicating with him for almost a year. I found out 3 months or so ago. There have been numerous times she said she wouldn't contact him. There have been way too many chances. I argued for a while with the SIL's that she has had too many chances already. They played the kid card. Those 3 kids trump all else. 

If we divorce now, she will go to him. I will at best get joint custody. They will be exposed to that sorry SOB and the ultimate failed relationship between those two. Now, this sorry ass marriage isn't good for the kids either.

I want what is best for the 3 people in this world I care the most about. As much as I hate not leaving right now, I love them more. The counselor I have been seeing is a marriage counselor. She has agreed to meet with him. While I don't believe marriage counseling will work right now, I feel like I owe it those 3 precious children to give it a shot. He will put it to her straight. I doubt that she will listen. I doubt it will make a difference at all. I don't think this marriage has a snowball's chance in hell. 

Divorce may make her wake up and smell the coffee. She will no longer be able to have her cake and eat it too. The reality of life on her own will be a total shock to her. That may be what it takes to wake her up. Even if it does wake her up, it will be too late. The effect of divorce on the children is the only thing that makes me suffering for a little longer on the very slight chance that it can be avoided worth it. I can move on with no problem. My wife can move on, but it will be much tougher than she imagines. Those children will suffer.

I have ordered the book that Pit recommended dealing with children and divorce. It should be here any day now. I'll read that and start preparing the children for what seems to be inevitable.


----------



## HurtinginTN

The 13th_Floor said:


> TN -
> 
> I think it's time to turn into the drill sergeant from Full Metal Jacket. I know you've seen that movie! Either give it 6 more months with an attitude, or divorce that addict tomorrow. You have no other options. Pull the 180 THE RIGHT WAY for your KIDS, or just divorce her, man...
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, it has been a while, but I have seen that movie. That is a pretty good portrayal of Parris Island. I am leaning harder toward the "just divorce her" part, but I will devote some more effort for the kids' sake.


----------



## Jellybeans

TN, you keep making excuses for her. Of course, you will do whatever you want to do and that's the way it is. You dont care that she walks all over you. You don't even respect yourself so how could she respect you?

Why are you even entertaining the idea of going to MC? She is in an affair. MC doesn't work if someone's having an affair. Duh. Its not rocket science. 

A YEARLONG AFFAIR? That is ridiculous. Your marriage isn't a priority to her. You keep saying you want what's best for the kids but is it really the best thing for them to see mommy having a yearlong affair and daddy tolerating that? You are setting a very bad example for them. So is she. 

You keep saying you're going to put your foot down but you don't. You keep mentioning divorce and separation but don't back it up with actions. Words are just that....words. Just like your wife...she keeps "saying" she will end the affair and yet it continues. Sick.

At this point I don't see that you're looking for advice here. You're just blogging and venting about your insanely adulterous wife. The story is the same as it's always been. She gets to have an affair, doormat husband and children cared for while you chase rabbit holes and "wait" for her to give up the affair.
She does not love you. If she did she wouldn't be doing this to your marriage and to you. She chooses the affair over you constantly. Would you treat her the way she treats you? Would you let a friend treat you like the way she treats you?

You are going to keep getting trampled on, it's clear to see because it's obvious you have zero intention of doing anything different about your situation. You aren't willing to get out of this vicious cycle. It's almost as if you enjoy the drama.


----------



## Eli-Zor

TN 

You don't give her 6 months , you work according to your timeline.
Cancel the counciling it is a cover to lie and produces a load of excuses for her.
Write down a list of requirements: start with these
1. She writes a no contact letter to the OM , you post it to his parents. The affaircare site should be up now and a set of templates are under the articles tab.
2. She writes a letter of apology to her parents, sisters and the OM's parents where she acknowledges her affair and commits to stopping it.
3. She agrees to the following: the children go to school after the summer vacations, she gets a job (once working it lessens any alimony payments you may have to make).
4. She commits to a polygraph test that you will schedule in a couple of months time.
5. She is never to converse with or be with any male who is not a member of the family without you being present
6. She give up the Internet completely 
Add your own

Here is the crux , you cannot ask a wayward to stop, her sister is not going to convince her to stop, the OM is not out of the picture, she will stop only when she sees and feels the consequences sadly your wife is not seeing any consequences.

This is not going to work unless she is totally immersed in saving the marriage.

She may ask what does she do, she applies every precaution to ensure she is not able to start the affair again, she works actively to meet your needs as you do hers.

If she does not agree to all of your terms ( all not some not diluted all) secure and act on you plan , file for divorce and/or move her to parents house without the children.

HT do not water this down, your wife is going to contact OM again, she has proven time and time again she is not willing to stop. You may stand a chance if she agrees to the requirements I posted and others you come up with. If she complains be clear she is a wayward and has to earn everyone's trust.

HT please do not ignore this advice,ask for pointers how to enact it or for input into a plan for you to follow, this can work however you are in a tough love stage.

On a side note once you have read this post what you know about the OM , as much info as you can share, we need to get him out of the way.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> Cancel the counciling it is a cover to lie and delve and produces a load of excuses for her.


I have been seeing this counsellor a while. The last visit he recommended showing her on paper what divorce will really look like. I didn't act on that since your advice at the time was to work on the 180. I believe he would definitely give good advice. What excuses would it provider her? "I tried counselling and it still didn't work"?


Eli-Zor said:


> If she does not agree to all of your terms ( all not some not diluted all) secure and act on you plan , file for divorce and/or move her to parents house without the children.


Should I have a time frame? Or just give her the list, say she has to commit right now or I file for divorce tomorrow?


Eli-Zor said:


> On a side note once you have read this post what you know about the OM , as much info as you can share, we need to get him out of the way.


I have his name, phone number, parents' name and phone number, and I believe I have his address. I have an email address that he used to set up passwords on the first affair phone. How much of that can I post here?


----------



## Eli-Zor

Often councillors will not have skills around marriage recovery techniques , many focus on the persons inner issues. The only issue here is your wife is a liar no amount of counselling can solve that only she can. It is a waste of family monies and can wait till your marriage is on a firmer footing.

Write your boundaries and requirements down, sit with her give her a copy. Start by saying these are non negotiable ,read each item with her , do not debate. This is you stating in uncertain terms what you want . Give her until Sunday afternoon to complete the written ones. This gives you time to extract the templates. Do not accept any wishy-washy letters direct clearly worded " I committed adultery" words therin.

Do not state what the consequences will be , repeat like a record player "these are the terms adhere to them" nothing else. In the background as it is likely she is going to refuse or renege on some of these you will be preparing to secure your children, move monies to an account only you have access to. The details of the plan and timings have to firmed up, hence I suggest you post and ask for input.

Carry on with the 180 until she changes and these changes are visable, at his stage you must assume she is no longer your wife.

The details you posted of the OM are ok, he is going to call your wife again this is a certain, you said you did not want to block his calls is this still the case and why? We need to askthe forum on ideas on how to track his home and work address down. It can and must be done, his security falls away when he knows an angry husband knows where he stays.

Your children are in the centre of all this drama and as they already know mom is committing adultery , add one more term, you and your wife sit with the children, either you tell them she is continuing to cheat with OM , name him, or she admits to them she is. Part of the conversation both of you must ensure they know you love them and will be with them, if they ask are you separating tell your wife to answer, again if her answer is not open state clearly mommy will be leaving if she cheats again. This is a tough conversation and is going to be harder than anything else you will ever do, do not wait , be there for them , choose your words carefully and be there for them. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> The details you posted of the OM are ok, he is going to call your wife again this is a definate, you said you did not want to block his calls is this still the case and why? We need to askthe forum on ideas on how to track his home and work address down. It can and must be done his security falls away when he know an angry husband knows where he stays.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do have what I believe to be his home address. I do not have any idea where he works or what he does for a living. Should I send him a letter?


----------



## Eli-Zor

You send the NC letter that your wifes write to him copy his parents. This will confirm to him you know where he stays. 

I added more to my previouse post you will have to read it again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## karole

TN, just this once, follow the advice that you have been given - word for word - no deviations. PLEASE! You have had the same sermon preached to you from day one, each time you choose to ignore it and do things your way, which never works and then you are back here posting the failure and getting the same advice again. I do not understand your reasoning. You are supposed to be the head of your household, the leader of your family, you were a Marine for God's sake - it's time to let go of the nice guy persona and grow some balls! Do what you have to without worrying about how your wife will react - do what has to be done.


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## Eli-Zor

One of the check list items you must have ready is if she does move out , or there is a separation or divorce build into the conditions that your children are never to be near the OM or leave the state without your prior approval, this is done often , she will challenge it, hold the line on this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

Jellybeans said:


> You dont care that she walks all over you. *You don't even respect yourself*.
> 
> *You keep saying you want what's best for the kids but is it really the best thing for them to see mommy having a yearlong affair and daddy tolerating that? You are setting a very bad example for them.* So is she.
> 
> At this point *I don't see that you're looking for advice here. You're just blogging and venting about your insanely adulterous wife.*
> 
> it's obvious you have zero intention of doing anything different about your situation. You aren't willing to get out of this vicious cycle.
> 
> *It's almost as if you enjoy the drama*.


TN,

I'm sorry.

Rather than try to "reach" you as I have been doing with every conceivable communication style. I'll just point blank it for you. (_As if_ I haven’t already done that several times)

I will piss into the wind one more time and give you my opinion. 

Your marriage is over. 

You are participating in hurting your children now. You are NOT teaching them how to be a good father/husband or a good person anymore. This is no longer teaching them character, or loyalty. Your wife is teaching them to be disgusting, selfish liars and damaging any moral compass that they have. You are showing them it’s Ok to allow people to do this to you, therefore validating her lessons. You’re not standing up for yourself, and you are not standing up for them. 

This is not about “saving” them anymore. Being exposed any further to the dynamic between you and your wife is tantamount to emotional neglect. It is psychologically abusive to allow this to continue. 

Here is an analogy which I think fits….

_IF_ and I mean huge IF you "save" or resuscitate this corpse now it will be similar to the movie/book "pet cemetery"....

You just couldn’t let the dead thing go, couldn’t deal with the loss so you brought it back but the thing you brought back is not the thing you remember, it is a dangerous sick echo of a memory. It will hurt and destroy everything in it's path (your children’s emotional well being and any future relationships they hoped to have) before you eventually have to FINALLY "put it down" again. But not before it makes you crazy and reeks further havoc on your world.

I think the tagline from that movie was "Sometimes dead is better."



HurtinginTN said:


> I do have what I believe to be his home address. I do not have any idea where he works or what he does for a living. Should I send him a letter?


Stop this crap. Wake up. Your W is the aggressor, she is telling him anything she needs to tell him, she’s lying and turning you into the monster. She is painting a picture and telling him what he needs to hear to keep him close and keep her fantasy alive. This is not him  doing this to you and I doubt it’s even 50/50, probably 90/10. This guy is probably not the monster you have in your head; time to open your eyes. Your WIFE IS THE MONSTER. 

Go ahead, Follow the directions your being given (again) to the letter, but if your able to get this monster to raise from the dead you better keep your finger on the trigger and be prepared to put it back down before it before it destroys everything.


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## KathyGriffinFan

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> TN,
> 
> 
> I think the tagline from that movie was "Sometimes dead is better."


I dunno why, but reading the above, it sent shivers down my spine. 

Yup, it's time to realize that your marriage is dead, ain't nada to hold on to anymore...and like everyone else has said, this isn't about your FIL/SIL's, it's about you and your wife. Don't worry about what they say.


----------



## HurtinginTN

KathyGriffinFan said:


> ...and like everyone else has said, this isn't about your FIL/SIL's, it's about you and your wife. Don't worry about what they say.


I'm not worried about what they say. They actually say they can't believe that I've stuck around this long. They said that is admirable. I said it is more stupid than admirable. Anyway, it's about time to stop beating this dead horse. Either the horse starts running (about the same odds as me hitting the powerball), or it's time to bury it.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> You are participating in hurting your children now. You are NOT teaching them how to be a good father/husband or a good person anymore. This is no longer teaching them character, or loyalty. Your wife is teaching them to be disgusting, selfish liars and damaging any moral compass that they have. You are showing them it’s Ok to allow people to do this to you, therefore validating her lessons. You’re not standing up for yourself, and you are not standing up for them.
> 
> This is not about “saving” them anymore. Being exposed any further to the dynamic between you and your wife is tantamount to emotional neglect. It is psychologically abusive to allow this to continue.



Pit, you certainly can't be a professional boxer. Don't they get in trouble for hitting below the belt? lol

I know. This situation is definitely intolerable and will not continue. I know divorce will be devastating on them. Especially, the half with Mommy. I will be firm in stating that OM will never be around my children. However, if she calls him now while we are married in our home, I'm not foolish enough to believe that she would respect some little sentence in a divorce decree. They'll be witness to the short-lived terrible relationship between those two. That is one thing you told me early on. They will have a life-time pass to all the rides on Dysfunction Land if we get a divorce.

However bad divorce will be on them, our marriage has to be approaching (if not past) the same level of damage to them. I agree that it has to change or end now. I will talk to my counsellor too, about what you said. Also, I have ordered that book you recommended. It should be here anyday. Actually, I thought it would have been here by now. I thought I would have some time to read it before she slipped up again. Either I'm getting better at the spy game or they are getting more careless. I could always apply for a job with the CIA.


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## Jellybeans

HurtinginTN said:


> Pit, you certainly can't be a professional boxer. Don't they get in trouble for hitting below the belt? lol


It's not "hitting below the belt." It's stating the truth based on the facts.

The facts are that you have an open marriage.
The facts are that your wife will not give up her affair.
The facts are both you and wife are showing your kids it's ok for one spouse to have a yearlong affair and it's fine to just stand by and let that happen.
The facts are you have done nothing different.
The facts are you can expect more of the same.

We're not being mean/rude to you. We are telling you the truth.

On TAM, yours is one of the saddest stories I've ever read. It is the go-to-guide on what to do if you want to be stuck in limbo forever and how to stand by idly while your spouse does whatever they want w/ zero consequences for their actions. 

Nothing will change unless you do something different. She has already shown you she isn't willing to change.


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## Ronin

You should try to reconcile. You seem to enjoy an open marriage, you might as well stay and keep watching the kids while she sleeps with other men. Who are you to limit her fun. Also stop being so jealous and controlling, its just sex.

Ronin


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## pidge70

Ronin, did you even bother to read his story? His W has not "slept" with anyone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

No 2x4s from me. All that's needed to said has been said so much better by the others above.

This is like watching a train wreck in agonizingly slow motion.


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## pidge70

:iagree:


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## pidge70

She thinks she has become a master of manipulation. She keeps doing this and will keep doing it because you let her. She has you by the short hairs because she knows how much you love your children. Nothing will ever change, your words/threats/ultimatums/begging are falling on deaf ears. 

I can guarantee MC is not going to make a difference. She is doing it to appease you and her family. 

How many times has she "ended" it now? 

I am not trying to be mean, I so hoped it would have worked out for you. Right now, you are not doing you or your children any favors. I am sure you can make it a condition of D that she cannot take the children out of state without your consent if it were to come to that. 

I bet the reason she was so p*ssed about failing that motorcycle test makes sense to you now.


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## HurtinginTN

pidge70 said:


> I bet the reason she was so p*ssed about failing that motorcycle test makes sense to you now.



Yes, that is painfully clear. That is likely the reason she failed it, actually. Evil intentions are rarely blessed.


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## Shooboomafoo

Hurtin,
I have a mediation meeting with my STBX on Monday.
There was no willingness to work on anything from her, she wanted her freedom to continue her life the way it ultimately destroyed ours together. 
I think for me, it hasnt quite sunk in yet, and doubt it will even after the ink is dry on the final decree. I remind you I have a D9, and we have been a family for 10 years. 
If I may suggest, taking a look at dadsdivorce.com and seeing if there are any posts or parts of the forum to glean some advice from for this point in your life. 
I loved my wife, and really really wanted this to work out, but the OM was the dealbreaker, not really only on my part, but for the fact that her involvement with him was removed all rational thought from her. I dont think I will ever get over it, I may be able to forgive, but from a distance. 
I would say it at least looks like you have a strong case for custody and obtaining support. Get an attorney if you havent yet. 
I find it incredibly difficult from one day to the next to focus on work, on life in general, just being able to get up and shave/shower/ etc., knowing whats ahead in the coming months of trying to get this all behind me. 
Just know you are not alone, this was all a huge bomb to me in my life, devastating everything, and the ability to "do" anything about it was completely removed from me.
Start setting yourself up to be somewhere solid, and supportive and strong for your kids. 
As much as I hope that I can get through this, as it has yet to even begin "officially", I hope you can too.


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## HurtinginTN

Shooboomafoo said:


> If I may suggest, taking a look at dadsdivorce.com and seeing if there are any posts or parts of the forum to glean some advice from for this point in your life.


I will. Thanks for the advice. 



Shooboomafoo said:


> I loved my wife, and really really wanted this to work out, but the OM was the dealbreaker, not really only on my part, but for the fact that her involvement with him was removed all rational thought from her.


Yes, I understand this completely. Reality will set in for them someday. Unfortunately, it looks like it will be way too late for any reconciliation.



Shooboomafoo said:


> I would say it at least looks like you have a strong case for custody and obtaining support. Get an attorney if you havent yet.


I have quite a large book of documentation. However, in my talk to an attorney, affairs don't matter too much on custody issues. That don't make a bit of sense to me, but that is apparently true. It plays some factor in alimony, but not custody. 



Shooboomafoo said:


> I find it incredibly difficult from one day to the next to focus on work, on life in general, just being able to get up and shave/shower/ etc., knowing whats ahead in the coming months of trying to get this all behind me.
> Just know you are not alone, this was all a huge bomb to me in my life, devastating everything, and the ability to "do" anything about it was completely removed from me.


Well, you are certainly not alone either. I know exactly how you feel.



Shooboomafoo said:


> Start setting yourself up to be somewhere solid, and supportive and strong for your kids.
> As much as I hope that I can get through this, as it has yet to even begin "officially", I hope you can too.


We will both get through this. We both deserve someone that does respect us, marriage, and family. One day at a time is what I keep telling myself.


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## Jellybeans

lordmayhem said:


> This is like watching a train wreck in agonizingly slow motion.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## HurtinginTN

I got my motorcycle license today.:smthumbup:

I thought of something Pit had posted somewhere when we were in the class. He had told someone that their WS just couldn't go down the same road they were on. I thought about that a lot when she was struggling with the motorcycle class. 

At first, I wanted to go help her. That was my first instinct. However, I realized I couldn't help her. She had to figure it out on her own. She had the same 2 competent instructors I had. She had the same instructions. She had to do it on her own. She wasn't quite able to get it in the 2 days of class. Granted, the driving test was pretty stringent. I got 15 of the allowable 20 points as well. She got 21, missing it by 1 point. 

I suppose this affair is similar. She has to give it up on her own. I can't do it for her. I can't "force" her to do it. She has to do it on her own. If she can't or won't, she will be missing out on much more than a motorcycle license. Like the motorcycle class had 2 days of instruction and practice, there came a time for the test. The test was pass or fail. One shot through. One time on each of the 4 parts. No extra chances. No do-overs.

The class and practice session of this marriage has been much more than sufficient. I suppose it is time for the test. It will be strict and stringent. It will be pass or fail. If she hasn't gotten it with all of this time, the chances look extremely slim for a passing grade.


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## Jellybeans

And what is the test? 

Congrats on your license


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## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> And what is the test?


Still working on the details. Basically, total commitment to the marriage in word and action. No contact whatsoever with him.



Jellybeans said:


> Congrats on your license


Thank you. My FIL is considering selling his bike. I have been talking to him about buying it. I believe I will take it on a nice, long test drive this weekend.


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## Eli-Zor

As long as you take the car to work , you do not want your wife mobile
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Better still do not buy it , wait until you know what is happening with your wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> Better still do not buy it , wait until you know what is happening with your wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I have thought about that. As bad as I would love to save on gas and ride a bike to work every day, it may be better to wait.


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## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> As long as you take the car to work , you do not want your wife mobile
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I could ride on days she would have the kids all day. The in-laws do pick them up for music lessons one day a week. Although, if she had a vehicle, they may just tell her to take them. They enjoy it, so they would probably continue. She wouldn't be able to get away with anything with 3 kids in tow. I don't think even she is that slick. Especially if it has to do with a phone. My 9 year old wants the first affair phone. She knows I have it at work. She wants her own working cell phone, lol. I didn't know what a cell phone was until I was twice her age.


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## Jellybeans

HurtinginTN said:


> Still working on the details. Basically, total commitment to the marriage in word and action. No contact whatsoever with him.


Hasn't that been the plan for a year now? What is different now about the plan?


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## KathyGriffinFan

^I agree w/Jelly. Ain't nothin' change but the date on the calendar.


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## pidge70

^ I also agree. There has been 3 people in your marriage for almost a year now. She has "ended" it with him numerous times correct? Best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

Yeah, that's why I'm just going to lurk on this thread only every once in a while. All that's needed to be said has already been said. Like they say, you can lead a horse to water.... If he doesn't want to help himself, than no one here can make him.

She already knows his achilles heel: the kids. So no matter how many times shes busted, no matter how many threats he makes about ending the marriage, she has her insurance policy and will continue to do what she wants. After all, what repercussions has she suffered? None. She has no incentive to end her affair, none at all. Why? Because she knows that HIT wont do anything because of the kids. Its sad really. I've read this same story over and over and over again on this site and other sites.

Good luck HIT. Can you at least admit that all the women on this site are giving you the same advice? Going back to lurking, but I really dont expect things to change with you since you are stuck in limbo.


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## HurtinginTN

lordmayhem said:


> She already knows his achilles heel: the kids.



Yes, that has certainly been my achilles heel. They are the only reason my rope has been sooooo very long. However, as everyone has pointed out, our marriage as it has been is probably worse for them than a divorce. 

This time, there has been no contact yet. The proper withdrawal symptoms are present. We'll see how long it lasts.

On a good note, I did have my first solo motorcycle ride this weekend. It was awesome!:smthumbup:


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## workindad

Enjoy the bike, sounds like a blast. Ride a few miles for me if you have a chance, can't afford a bike a now, but would love one.


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## HurtinginTN

workindad said:


> Enjoy the bike, sounds like a blast. Ride a few miles for me if you have a chance, can't afford a bike a now, but would love one.


You bet! I felt like a 16 year old kid. I don't have one, either, but my father-in-law does. I got my license on Friday and went to ask him if I could borrow his bike on Saturday. It was funny. He said I could use it anytime. 

I plan to. Buying my own isn't in the immediate future, for several reasons. Riding that thing is quite exciting. I have certainly found a new hobby.


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## Eli-Zor

HT have you a plan for yourself if/when your wife contacts the OM. This is a drug and both will require their fix. Did you state your terms? While all this may seem difficult to do now the idea is to change the balance from your wife determining the route to you controlling the journey. If you assume you have to apply the harsh realities it makes it easier to deal with at the time. Do not think she has automatic custody of your children , with him out of state and with a little digging for some dirt on him you have a good chance of fighting for custody.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LonelyNLost

Hurt, I'm sorry that you are going through this. You have been struggling with this for a very long time, and I don't envy you one bit. Everyone is getting harsh with you, trying to get the message through. You read it, but it doesn't sink in because you want to save your marriage so bad. You don't want a broken home for your kids. You don't want to FAIL at your marriage. But I want you to know I was once in your shoes, and it really was not that long ago. Something clicked one day and I realized that what was best for the kids and I was to let go. Luckily, my H made it easy since he's such a coward he ran away with his tail between his legs once he realized he couldn't hide it any longer. I know it's hard to give up, but it isn't really giving up. It's gathering up your strength, your dignity (which you've lost) and having enough respect for yourself to say ENOUGH IS ENOUGH. I applaud you for trying as hard as you did, I admire you for honoring your marriage and vows. But it's time to let go. For YOU and for those kids.


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## HurtinginTN

LonelyNLost said:


> Something clicked one day and I realized that what was best for the kids and I was to let go.


I am about to that point. I have been thinking about it a lot these past several days. I have been accepting crumbs for a very long time. I'm ready for a filet mignon. 

The realization that I came to today is that it doesn't really matter if he is still in the picture. Even if he is gone for good this time (I know. My odds are better on the powerball), there has been too much damage done. 

I was getting stronger a while back. Then I bought the crap again and believed it was over. Of course, there have been 2 back-to-back discoveries since then. One day at a time. But, yes, I strongly wonder if it isn't as Pit put it. This marriage should be buried. Sometimes dead is better. The pet cemetary version could very well be worse than the first.


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## Eli-Zor

HT I am going to be a pain in the butt do you have a plan or want input to a plan? Non of us what you on the curb bleeding and will support you as much as we can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LonelyNLost

Yes, Hurt, you don't want the pet cemetary version. My H had an EA 4 years ago, and he gave her up after only a week or so, but then once a cheater always a cheater. This time he went for the gold. And well, he can have his little fantasy world. If I could go back, or if I were ever in the circumstance again, I don't think I could give a second chance. Trust is a fragile thing. You'd be torturing yourself if you believed her crap again. I wish you luck! Get to work on your plan!


----------



## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> HT I am going to be a pain in the butt do you have a plan or want input to a plan? Non of us what you on the curb bleeding and will support you as much as we can.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Right now, I'm just trying to get my head around things. It's been a very busy week at work so I'll be getting home very late every night. That hasn't left much time for talking or planning. We'll go Saturday to the counsellor. He is a trusted friend, no charge, that will shoot straight. At the last meeting, we did discuss divorce. That was before the latest discovery. 

I am looking at another opportunity that will bring extra cash flow if it materializes. If that happens, I will be able to make more substantial changes. I did disclose this possibility to her, the other opportunity. Now, I think that may be the reason for her new apparent commitment. Hold on til Hurt has a better job for more alimony. 

I am documenting everything, such as her drinking a bottle of wine last night, that may come into play in a custody battle.


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## Jellybeans

What is the point of counselling is she is still in touch with OM?


----------



## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> What is the point of counselling is she is still in touch with OM?


There has been no contact since this last confrontation. The method used to catch the last time has had no hits. I am confident in this method. Even more so in my gut. It knows when she does.

That is not to say I am rolling over. It's just to say that I have confidence in no contact so far. For once, I do believe I am one step ahead in that matter.

The silly spy games are pretty stupid, really. A man shouldn't have to be a CIA operative to prove to himself his wife isn't having an affair.


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## Jellybeans

You're right. He shouldn't.


----------



## turnera

I thought the Spades game came back online. Is she not going back to it?


----------



## KathyGriffinFan

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought she was hip to you using a VAR? Or are you talking about another method of catching her talking to the OM?


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## HurtinginTN

KathyGriffinFan said:


> Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought she was hip to you using a VAR? Or are you talking about another method of catching her talking to the OM?


Another method, more effective.


----------



## HurtinginTN

workindad said:


> Enjoy the bike, sounds like a blast. Ride a few miles for me if you have a chance, can't afford a bike a now, but would love one.



I had a nice ride Saturday. On a nice stretch, I said to myself the next few miles are dedicated to you. It was great, just to let you know. Nice country road with cow fields on either side of the road with clear blue sky above.

On the relationship, she hasn't been in contact with him. We did go to marriage counselling. She has made several changes. However, I can't seem to get over my anger. I keep getting flashes of the BS that has gone on and blow up. It has happened a couple of times the past few days. Funny, all this time I have just focused on ending the affair. Now that it looks like it is over (at least for the past 2 weeks), the anger over what she has put me through has come to the forefront. 

Could I really be that stupid? Be overly patient and put up with more than anyone should be subjected to while it is ongoing and then have no patience whatsoever after it has possibly ended? OK. Don't answer that.


----------



## turnera

Is she playing Spades again?

Re your feelings, it is entirely common for you to be so focused on putting out the fire that you have no energy or time for looking at the gallon of gasoline. Once you put it out, then you see the gas and get mad at whoever put it there.


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## lordmayhem

You're finally reaching your anger stage, a little later than normal, but its still normal. Next comes depression followed by acceptance. Try to channel your anger into being more resolved with your goals and keeping her accountable to your requirements for R. And you can always work off excess anger at the gym or working out. And you already know not to drive angry, especially on a bike.

If you have another DDay in this stage, you will be a lot more angry than shocked or hurt. If you're in this stage, you will probably not be putting up with any more of her bullsh!t.


----------



## HurtinginTN

lordmayhem said:


> And you can always work off excess anger at the gym or working out. And you already know not to drive angry, especially on a bike.



I am a bit sore from working some it out on the weight bench a few days ago. If I had just kept my mouth shut long enough to get to the bench first, it would have been better. Adrenaline from anger is quite amazing in working out. It works much better as a strentgh enhancer than any supplement I've ever tried.

Yes, they emphasized riding angry in the motorcycle class almost as much as they did in riding drunk. A bike ride sounds like a good way to calm down on one hand, but I definitely see the extreme danger in it. I'll stay off the bike unless I'm in a decent mood. I don't see a good mood coming for a while, but at least a decent mood should be fine for a bike ride.


----------



## pidge70

Wow, that was not only uncalled for but, immature as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## HurtinginTN

pidge70 said:


> Wow, that was not only uncalled for but, immature as well.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I'm sorry, Pidge. I don't understand what you are talking about here. About me getting angry? There were a couple of triggers, but I did respond in an inappropriate manner. That is true. 

I and my counsellor both believe she is being honest in the no contact this time. There has been no hit or anything that didn't check out. She did go to the store a few nights ago. That is when I accused her of getting another phone. My gut said it so loud at the time, I just knew it was true. The receipts of the stores she went to did check out with her story. 

I am going on the fact that it is over with him this time. As my counsellor points out, truth and time are on the same side. IF she is not talking to him and I keep acting as if she is, it just reinforces the fact to her that stopping talking to him does no good. My actions would be the ones to stop the marriage.

However, IF she is not talking to him and I act accordingly, there is a shot. If I give it 100% at this point, maybe there is a shot. It is hard to give it 100% after being burned so many times. It is very possible she is just better at hiding it, but I am also better at spotting it. We'll see how it goes.


----------



## pidge70

That wasn't directed towards you TN. Someone had posted something quite rude but, it seems to have been deleted.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

That's so weird! I saw the other post, too. I didn't know we could do that! Maybe the mods deleted it.


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## HurtinginTN

pidge70 said:


> That wasn't directed towards you TN. Someone had posted something quite rude but, it seems to have been deleted.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



OK, I missed it. It must have been deleted before I saw it.


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## KathyGriffinFan

Any updates, TN?


----------



## HurtinginTN

We had a great weekend. The kids went to my sister-in-laws for a few days and we had a lot of time alone. There wasn't a single argument or anything like that. We had fun together. We played a game together, Hotel Mogul, I believe, for several hours and worked out strategies. It's a pretty challenging game. We didn't move on to a new level until we could get the expert time.

Saturday evening, she asked if I wanted to go ride the motorcycle together. We went out to a parking lot and practiced for a few hours. Yesterday, we baked and decorated a cake for our son's birthday. It was a very nice weekend.

Last Wednesday, she had called and said she wants to separate. That was on the heels of a fight on Tuesday night. I met with my counsellor after the call. Also, I went to church Wednesday night. The topic was very fitting. Forgiveness.

I wrote her a letter on Thursday in which I told her I forgive her. I laid out exactly what it was that I was forgiving her for. As I wrote each sentence, I felt more relief. It's kind of crazy. You, or at least I, always think forgiveness is a gift you give someone else. Actually, I believe forgiveness is a gift you give to yourself. The anger and bitterness of holding on to it was extremely detrimental in many ways. 

Part of the Lord's Prayer is "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." Well, if I'm not willing to give forgiveness, how can I expect it? 

It is true that she could just have taken the affair very deep underground. However, I don't believe that is the case. My gut says that is not the case. 

I feel peace for the first time in a long time. We had an awesome weekend. If we keep having good times together, the feelings will grow. Feelings follow actions. Feelings come and go. By spending the time together with activities we both enjoy, the feelings will grow.


----------



## turnera

What are you doing about learning and understanding why you get into arguments?


----------



## Jellybeans

HurtinginTN said:


> Last Wednesday, she had called and said she wants to separate. That was on the heels of a fight on Tuesday night.


So what is going on with that?


----------



## lordmayhem

So much for the anger stage. From my vantage point, it looks like when she threatened to separate, you caved in (quickly I might add) and you looked for any excuse to give in, even citing the Lords Prayer. And now you're trying to woo her into R. Good luck and I hope she doesn't throw away this gift of R that you are quick to hand her.


----------



## Jellybeans

^ That's how I see it. She told him what she wants and yet he doesn't believe her and is trying to guilt her into staying by saying how forgiving he is. And you know how that plays out--when you try to make someone do something against their will. 

Thing is, she has to want it. And it sounds like she doesn't and hasn't for a long time.

How long has this affair been going on now? Over a year right?


----------



## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> What are you doing about learning and understanding why you get into arguments?


The arguments of late, especially last Tuesday night, were from my false accusations. Granted, we all know how many times she has said it was over and wasn't. I do believe my extreme lack of trust has been warranted. However, my angry outbursts certainly were not the way to handle them. Pretty much all of our arguments have been over the affair. Now that he is out of the picture, I have to let it go and move on. There were a few triggers over the weekend. However, I proactively worked on overcoming them and was successful. A big part of marksmanship with a rifle is trigger control. I am good at that. I just need to work on this type of trigger control.



Jellybeans said:


> So what is going on with that?


It was a big fight Tuesday night. In front of the kids. It was totally unacceptable on both my part and the part of my wife. I agreed fully that has to stop or we will separate. I will not subject my children to that again. That was the basis for her statement on separating. I was fully ready to go against the advice and move out at that point in time as well. However, the OM is out of the picture and I have decided to let it go. The fighting will stop, at least at that totally unacceptable level.




lordmayhem said:


> So much for the anger stage. From my vantage point, it looks like when she threatened to separate, you caved in (quickly I might add) and you looked for any excuse to give in, even citing the Lords Prayer. And now you're trying to woo her into R. Good luck and I hope she doesn't throw away this gift of R that you are quick to hand her.


I was fully ready to walk away at that point. I still am, if certain conditions are not met. As long as the OM stays out of the picture and the fighting stops, I will continue to work on R. I didn't cave so much for her sake or out of desperation. The forgiveness topic at church that night really hit home with me. There were a million topics he could have chosen for that particular night. He was led to talk about forgiveness. That timing had much more to do with my decision than the threat of separation. That had not been the first discussion of separation. I came to the realization that forgiveness is actually more for me than for her. 

As far as trying to woo her, I suppose that is true. I was actually expecting to spend most of the weekend on a solo bike ride or visiting my parents. I played it by ear and we ended up having quite a nice time together. The lovey dovey feelings aren't there for either one of us. The fun weekend was more as friends than lovers. However, friends is a major improvement over enemies. 

Well, time will tell on whether she embraces this or throws it away. So far, it looks promising.


----------



## Jellybeans

What is "promising" about her saying she want to separate from you?


----------



## lordmayhem

HurtinginTN said:


> I was fully ready to walk away at that point. I still am, if certain conditions are not met. As long as the OM stays out of the picture and the fighting stops, I will continue to work on R. I didn't cave so much for her sake or out of desperation. The forgiveness topic at church that night really hit home with me. There were a million topics he could have chosen for that particular night. He was led to talk about forgiveness. That timing had much more to do with my decision than the threat of separation. That had not been the first discussion of separation. I came to the realization that forgiveness is actually more for me than for her.
> 
> As far as trying to woo her, I suppose that is true. I was actually expecting to spend most of the weekend on a solo bike ride or visiting my parents. I played it by ear and we ended up having quite a nice time together. The lovey dovey feelings aren't there for either one of us. The fun weekend was more as friends than lovers. However, friends is a major improvement over enemies.
> 
> Well, time will tell on whether she embraces this or throws it away. So far, it looks promising.


I was worried that you were a little too quick to offer the precious, precious gift of R when she hasn't yet earned it through repentance. As a church goer, you already know that the Lord's forgiveness comes after you repent of your sins and not do it again, and so should ours. It's not a free pass to continue to walk all over us over and over again. If she is truly repentant and will not do it again, then I believe you should forgive. I just thought so little time has passed since this last DDay, and considering her past history of continually breaking NC and taking the A farther underground, that it seems a bit quick. 

But like you said, only time will tell.


----------



## turnera

What is SHE doing to EARN your forgiveness?


----------



## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> What is "promising" about her saying she want to separate from you?


Nothing. This weekend was pleasantly surprising. That is what was promising.



turnera said:


> What is SHE doing to EARN your forgiveness?


I don't think forgiveness could ever be earned. It has to be freely given, no strings attached. After a lot of soul searching and for many reasons, I have forgiven her. That does not mean she is free to jump back in the affair and carry on as in the past. The forgiveness was a gift more to me than to her, to be quite frank and honest. 

What she is doing towards reconciliation of our marriage is a different matter. The marriage certainly isn't all roses and won't be anytime soon. She is continuing with no contact with him. Also, she has initiated spending time with me. This weekend, I was planning on going on a bike ride. She was the one that suggested we go ride together before I mentioned I was going on one. That may not seem like much, but to me it is a huge improvement.

I do see the risk. If that happens, I will be able to walk away knowing full well I put everything in it possible.


----------



## turnera

Are you in counseling?


----------



## HurtinginTN

lordmayhem said:


> If she is truly repentant and will not do it again, then I believe you should forgive. I just thought so little time has passed since this last DDay, and considering her past history of continually breaking NC and taking the A farther underground, that it seems a bit quick.
> 
> But like you said, only time will tell.


There are 2 possibilities. One is that she is truly repentant and will not do it again. I am giving her the benefit of the doubt that is the case. There is some "trust, but verify" as well. 

The other possibility is that she is just deeper underground and is planning on leaving to be with OM at some point. 

So, there is a risk that the second possibility is reality. What am I losing by assuming it is not? Nothing at this point. Time, I suppose. 

However, what am I risking if the first possibility is true and I don't act accordingly? The risk of weathering the storm only to sink the ship afterward seems higher to me at this point than the risk of the other way.


----------



## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> Are you in counseling?


Yes, I have been seeing a great counsellor. He also met with me and my wife once so far.


----------



## turnera

Then you're doing the best you can. I agree to wait and see. 

Did you guys ever fill out the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires?


----------



## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> Then you're doing the best you can. I agree to wait and see.
> 
> Did you guys ever fill out the Love Buster and Emotional Needs questionnaires?


I had printed them out several months ago. Of course, at that time, she wasn't willing to even look at them. I'll dig them back out and dust them off. 

We didn't call it a love buster, but when we met with the counsellor, he asked what the biggest thing was. She talked awhile and said something like blah, blah, blah. There was something about "he don't listen to me" somewhere in the mix. lol


----------



## turnera

LBs can be quite complex, or they can be quite mundane.

Do you know what my DH's biggest LB to me is? He uses Q-tips every single day. And, despite knowing that it upsets me, he literally just drops them whereever he happens to be when he's done using them. It disgusts me to either have to pick up his dirty Q-tips, have to ask him to do so (after 30 years!), or just leave them lying all around the house. 

Something so minor, but it BLARES lack of consideration to me. And thus it ruins my love for him.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Well, no proof of contact since last update. However, it is strongly suspected (95% based on yesterday's conversation). Yesterday I confronted her about my suspicion. She neither confirmed or denied it. I told her I'm tired of the BS. Let's put our cards on the table and determine where to go from here. She said she still has feelings for OM and not for me. She is still "torn" about whether she wants him or me. She was packing last night when I got home and said she was going to meet him to try to decide one way or the other. I should have just let her go. That would have meant calling in to work for a few days and I had just taken off last Friday and this Monday for a family get-away. She still has never met him in person, but that was the third time she had plans to drive across the country to meet him. I offered to drive her to the airport and buy her a 1-way ticket. She refused. We still only have 1 car and I wasn't going to let her take it. Looking back, I should have just helped her pack and called in to work.

I have started another thread on "Considering Divorce or Separation." That is more appropriate since I am tired of "Coping with Infidelity". Not the folks, the actions. In our talks last night, between the yelling, it came out that they have discussed him moving to TN if we get a divorce. Just the fact that they went so far as to have that conversation seems like a deal breaker to me. I am still struggling with the effect this is going to have on my kids. I do have a book Pit suggested on talking to kids about divorce. It is still in the closet, but I will break it out. I believe it was "Talking to kids about divorce the sandcastle way" or something similar. 

That is what sucks the most about all of this. I know I'll be fine and find someone much better. I know she will go through a living hell with this SOB that she thinks is a knight in shining armor. I know that relationship will be ****ty and short lived. The only thing that still concerns me is the kids. That has been the only thing for a long time, actually. If not for them, I would have been gone long, long ago.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

HurtinginTN said:


> it came out that they have discussed him moving to TN if we get a divorce. Just the fact that they went so far as to have that conversation seems like a deal breaker to me.


I'm genuinely sorry that "I told you so".

Several months ago I guarenteed you the scenario she was playing in her head included you leaving and plugging him right into your spot, on your dime. I told you they discuss that and asked if you got that out of her.

Why you no listen? (retorical question). 

I'm really sorry dude. I never wanted to be right about any of this.

take care my friend.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Several months ago I guarenteed you the scenario she was playing in her head included you leaving and plugging him right into your spot, on your dime. I told you they discuss that and asked if you got that out of her.


I thought of you the second she said it. You asked what her "master plan" was. Last night was the first time that came out. Even knowing there was a master plan, I was totally caught off guard on that one.

Get this, that even played into her "knight in shining armor" view of him. "The only reason he would move to TN is so the kids can be near their father." How very noble of him to think of me. I want to barf just typing that.


----------



## Grayson

HurtinginTN said:


> Get this, that even played into her "knight in shining armor" view of him. "The only reason he would move to TN is so the kids can be near their father." How very noble of him to think of me. I want to barf just typing that.


I bet.

I would have been so tempted to say something like, "Don't you mean so they can still see their *mother*?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

Don't drive her to the airport, don't offer to help her with anything. If she wants to go meet her Phantom OM, then let her. But don't hold her hand through it.

Please file and be done. She is yanking you around. You deserve much more!


----------



## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Why you no listen? (retorical question).


Well, partly SMOG and partly for the kids. Someday, I will show the kids all of these posts. Then they will know what I went through for them. I think I've given it more than most would. I know I could have taken a firmer stance earlier on. I believe with her rebellion issues it would have just pushed the date up. I don't believe I could have done anything differently to change the outcome. I have had a bad case of "What if's" today. Perhaps if I had trusted my gut when I first sensed it wasn't appropriate. Anyway, she probably would have kept at it. If not with him, with someone else. 

I just hope I can keep out of jail when I finally meet this POS someday. I considered looking up the penalty for assault to see if it is worth it. A few months in jail would probably be worth beating the hell out of him. More than that, he ain't worth the trouble. Of course, he did threaten to hit a man in the head at work because "he doesn't like to be touched." I have that transcript where he told my wife that. Perhaps some verbal prodding on my part could elicit a swing from him. THAT would be very sweet. Self-defense! She got her cake and got to eat it too. Why shouldn't I? lol. Now I'll be dreaming of how to get him to throw a punch. Better yet, assault me with a weapon. That would give me more room on how far I could go with self-defense. Oh, I know. Just leave the POS alone. But a man can dream, can't he?


----------



## Powerbane

Send her packing. If she takes the car - so what. I'm with Jelly. Don't help. At this point it's not gonna matter. 

Tell her good bye. I hope it works for ya and the papers will be filed before you get back. 

You will not be second fiddle or her damn fall back plan.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyGriffinFan

I too agree with Jelly. 

Secondly, he's not even a POS, he's lower than that. The guy met your wife online, no? Playing games? Sounds like she has a real winner there.


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## HurtinginTN

Powerbane said:


> Tell her good bye. I hope it works for ya and the papers will be filed before you get back.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



That is what I should have told her last night. You were there that awful night at McDonald's. That was the first time I told her I want a divorce. I believe last night hurt even worse. The fact they have discussed him moving to TN still kills me. I hope you are doing well.


----------



## HurtinginTN

KathyGriffinFan said:


> Secondly, he's not even a POS, he's lower than that. The guy met your wife online, no? Playing games? Sounds like she has a real winner there.


Yep, for months, his schedule was work through the day, get home about the same time I do, play Spades with my wife for several hours online while getting drunk, pass out, do it again the next morning.

How is he going to handle the mile long honey-do list she likes to write? lol


----------



## Grayson

HurtinginTN said:


> Yep, for months, his schedule was work through the day, get home about the same time I do, play Spades with my wife for several hours online while getting drunk, pass out, do it again the next morning.


Wow. There's a real winner.

I'll be the first to admit that I've lost track of time while playing games on the computer. I've even planned on playing when I got home from time to time. But to plan, EVERY NIGHT, to game for hours and get drunk while doing it? Yowza.

Reminds me of a guy that cyber-stalked and threatened a friend's (now) wife, and a few others of us many years ago. Guy was about 29, didn't work, didn't drive, was on Prozac, and considered the people he interacted with online to be his best friends. Several of us found statements he made to be disturbing, and tried to distance ourselves from him (and discussed the matter in private). One he reached the point of hiding his identity and making death threats against my friend's wife, we were glad he'd been so open about his true name and location...ended up doing federal time for those threats.

But, I digress....

I hesitate to call this a "happy" ending for you, Hurting. But, perhaps it's certainly a _good_ ending.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

So...today, have you called her parents, her siblings, her cousins, aunts, uncles, best friends, priest, and told them all about her cheating and her plans? Why not?

Close your bank accounts down so she can't access money. Get some boxes and start packing her stuff tomorrow. Move it all to the garage. Contact your lawyer and ask him what it takes to keep her from moving the kids from your house, and DO IT.


----------



## the guy

You know what really sucks...is your W may have not even met this gem of a guy. Her fantasy is so warpped you almost want to let her go so you can see her fail.
As risky as it is...some times we have to let the ones we love.. go!

How many chances will she get before you let her addiction play out...and if she's lucky you will still be around to pick up the pieces.

If your lucky you will have learned from this and if so inclined invite her along for a relatioship way better then the 1st one. It is her choice, yours is to move forward....having the empowerment to either take her along or move on to better prospects.

Stop thinking about her bad dicisions and focus on the choices that will make you better no matter if she joins you or not.


Remember be a new man and *allow* her to join you or not!


----------



## lordmayhem

So sorry for you that they are still in contact and have even ammended their plans to have OM move to your state. 

Stay strong for you and your kids. You've fought for your marriage as long as you could, now its time to play hardball.


----------



## sammy3

HurtinginTN,,

I'm really sorry your in such a miserable situation. Hang in there, you're not alone.

~sammy


----------



## lordmayhem

HurtinginTN said:


> Yep, for months, his schedule was work through the day, get home about the same time I do, play Spades with my wife for several hours online while getting drunk, pass out, do it again the next morning.
> 
> How is he going to handle the mile long honey-do list she likes to write? lol


Because he lives in his parents basement and basically lives online and drunk, he may look something like this:










Except this guy in the picture is a little too neat. Imagine bottles/cans of beer all over the place and pizza boxes strewn around.


----------



## turnera

Hurting, I know you're hurting, but if you still have any hope of reconciling, you need to expose the affair.


----------



## 8yearscheating

I agree with Tunera - bring it into the light at work, parents, best friends, family and ask for their help in getting her off the drug of the A.


----------



## turnera

What have you got to lose at this point?


----------



## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> So...today, have you called her parents, her siblings, her cousins, aunts, uncles, best friends, priest, and told them all about her cheating and her plans? Why not?
> 
> Close your bank accounts down so she can't access money. Get some boxes and start packing her stuff tomorrow. Move it all to the garage. Contact your lawyer and ask him what it takes to keep her from moving the kids from your house, and DO IT.


I've not called any of them today. They all know. I've already gone down the exposure path. We spent this last weekend (4 days actually) with her family on a mini-vacation at some cabins at a state park. They have all known for quite a while. I discussed the current state of affairs with one of her sisters briefly. They all know and have expressed their thoughts with her. That was one of *their* goals for the weekend, to bring us closer together. They kept all the kids at one cabin, while my wife, her parents, and one of her sisters and her husband stayed in another. I believe they gave us the smallest bed in hopes there may be some action. lol. There wasn't, of course. 

The bank account is in my name only. It has been for years because she has never made it to the bank with me when we changed banks to add her name. I told her last night we need to go through everything. What she wants to keep, make a list with the value. What she doesn't, we will sell in the most expedient manner we find. Probably at an auction house. Who really cares how much it brings? With the proceeds, we will buy another car (used, with a price limit), pay off some debt, and split what remains.



the guy said:


> You know what really sucks...is your W may have not even met this gem of a guy. Her fantasy is so warpped you almost want to let her go so you can see her fail.
> As risky as it is...some times we have to let the ones we love.. go!
> 
> Remember be a new man and *allow* her to join you or not!


I know. That is what is so crazy. She is willing to throw everything away on a pure fantasy. I have told her how silly that is. Of course, going to meet him for a few days will work out great. He will be on his best behaviour and may even clean up all the empty beer cans and liquor bottles before she arrives. They will hit it off great and she will be convinced he really is Prince Charming. Her mother even told her that. She came over on one of our "I'm done" days and the three of us talked. I told her that she had planned on going to meet him twice (at that point). She looked at her and said basically what I just said. Then, probably within 6 months, she will get through the blindness and see what a loser this POS really is and realize what she has done. I told her that I gauaran-DAMN-tee her relationship with him will not work out. She said, "You don't know that." I said, "Yes, I do." Anyway, that is part of the "Don't reason" on the 180. They can't or won't listen to reason.



lordmayhem said:


> Because he lives in his parents basement and basically lives online and drunk, he may look something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except this guy in the picture is a little too neat. Imagine bottles/cans of beer all over the place and pizza boxes strewn around.


lol EXACTLY! Although he doesn't live in his parents basement. He lives with a roommate, though. That's another thing I pointed out. He doesn't even pay his own way. He has to split his rent to make it. Oh, well, I've done all I can do. I just don't want my kids along on her ****ty ride.


----------



## Pit-of-my-stomach

Action. Take it. No talking, no threats, no negotiating, you lead.


----------



## Eli-Zor

Speak little do lots and shut her out , place clauses in the agreement that prohibit the OM being round your children, let them now the name of the OM and play hardball with your wife, get her out of the house as soon as you can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Full 180, don hesitate, print it out, read the 180 daily and stick to it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

You and your WW's family made a valiant effort, but as you've bitterly learned, there's absolutely no reasoning with them while they are deep in the fog. While your WW's in the fog, she is only concerned with her feelings for the OM and the OM himself, everyone else, including her children, are secondary. They already have this mind set of "It's Us Against The World Baby!". The more everyone tries, the more they feel like they are Romeo and Juliet, with everyone, including their families, conspiring to keep them apart. I guess this is what they call the affair bubble, and to her, only she and OM exist in it.

Only reality will burst this bubble, and it may take months or even years more or less depending on how long OM can keep up the Prince Charming facade. But by then, OM will have banged her to his hearts content, considering he's some loser that never gets any in real life. And it will be too late after she's irretrievable broken her family and you will have moved on. It's tragic when you think about it.

This is like watching a slow moving train wreck that you know wil not end well for her.


----------



## HurtinginTN

lordmayhem said:


> It's tragic when you think about it.



Extremely!


----------



## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> Full 180, don hesitate, print it out, read the 180 daily and stick to it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Isn't it a little late for the 180? It ain't over til it's over? Well, I believe it is over. I don't believe I can recover from the fact that they have gone so far as to discuss him moving to TN "so the kids can be close to thier father." She is already putting him in the position to raise my children. WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I told her she can go to him whenever she wants. She can take the van. I'll rent one or something if I need a vehicle. Me and the kids will make do. I fully expect her to leave tomorrow night as soon as I get home. She'll be gone for at least the 3 day weekend, probably a week or two. I told her how it will play out. Of course, POS will put his best foot forward for a few days and everything will be awesome. She'll give him the rest of her body (he already has her heart). They will be convinced that their little fantasy is indeed reality. We will divorce and she will find out at some point down the road (I told her I give it 6 months max) that Prince Charming is indeed a frog. Then, she will finally realize how badly she has screwed up her life. By that time, I will most likely have found someone that does give a **** about me.

She'll go. She'll like it. We'll divorce. Why fool with the 180?


----------



## elph

because the 180 is for YOUR benefit. 

the side effect is that she notices and helps bring her back. it wont bring her back for you, but it MAY help.

and even if it doesnt, itll help you move on in slow easy to manage steps.

but cater it to your needs. ive done most of it, but a few ive bent, or shes bent for me (talking about the future)

at some point doing it becomes unconsious. and you start to feel better about yourself. and then you develop CONFIDENCE!


if theres something ive learned the past month when ive finally really gotten my act together (with the help of a good therapist) is that CONFIDENCE is affair kryptonite.

seriously. it helps you feel good about your self, and it makes you more attractive to not only her, but everybody else around you. and it is often labeled as the most attractive quality found in men. (my wife fell for this with the OM, although its very much in a controlled enviorment of work.that bubble will burst soon enough)


180 it!!!!!


----------



## Jellybeans

TN, the 180 is for YOU, not your wife. You do it so YOU can start to feel good. Go out this weekend with some friends and start a bar fight. 

Kidding. 

But ju know what I mean! 



HurtinginTN said:


> I told her she can go to him whenever she wants. She can take the van. I'll rent one or something if I need a vehicle. Me and the kids will make do.


Nooooooooooooooooo! Why are you facillitating her affair? Why are you helping her get transporation to f-ck someone else??? 

Tell her she can take a rental and to expect divorce papers when she gets back. Adios, amiga!


----------



## pidge70

Because he would have to foot the bill for a rental.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## lordmayhem

Yup. And it would set a definite time limit for her return. HiT wants her to stay as long as possible so his chances of getting full custody of the kids due to abandonment of the children, house, and marriage.


Tennessee Divorce Laws - Fault and No Fault Divorce Grounds, Residency Laws, Filing Information, and Waiting Period

Tennessee Divorce Laws

Tennessee Grounds for Divorce. 

Tennessee will grant a no-fault divorce based on irreconcilable differences between the parties. If Help Yourself Divorce prepares your divorce papers, those are the grounds that will be used. Tennessee law also recognizes a number of "fault" based grounds, including the following:

(1) Impotence;
(2) Bigamy;
*(3) Adultery;*
*(4) Abandonment;*
(5) Imprisonment;
(6) Either party has attempted the life of the other;
(7) The woman was pregnant at the time of the marriage, by another person, without the knowledge of the husband;
(8) Habitual drunkenness or abuse of narcotic drugs;
(9) Cruel and inhuman treatment;

-From 36-4-101 of the Tennessee Code


----------



## turnera

I agree that, if she wants to go so bad, she can go borrow the money from someone ELSE to get there! For God's sake, man, don't GIVE HER the VAN! Seriously?


----------



## Jellybeans

Exactly. Why even pay for her rental? Her Phantom OM can do it if he wants to get her in pants so bad. Lemme guess.. she'll be lseepin in her momma's basement? 

If Phantom OM is even a man. Phantom OM could turn out to be a 73 yr old grandma in a nursing home killing time. 

You wife sounds like a lunatic to me.


----------



## Eli-Zor

> She can take the van. I'll rent one or something if I need a vehicle.


DO NOT let her take the van, she walks, she catches a bus, you give her a one way ticket, nothing else.

If she says you are reneging on your words tough she is cheating. When she is read to go help her pack all her clothes , is she is gone text her and tell her the clothes are ready in bags at her parents house. 

The moment she leaves throw the book at her file fast.

Take the advice from "lordmayhem". Hit that 180 hard make it clear family transport and money is not for her to practice adultery. 

Don not fight her or raise your voice and tell your children mommy is going to see her FB for sex.


----------



## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> TN, the 180 is for YOU, not your wife. You do it so YOU can start to feel good. Go out this weekend with some friends and start a bar fight.


That only sounds good if he is at the bar. There is nothing much more in the world I would love to do than beat the living **** out of that man. But, I do realize my anger should be more based on my wife and not him. She is the one breaking the vows. Yet, my knuckles on his face is a VEEEERRRRRYYYYY appealing thought.



pidge70 said:


> Because he would have to foot the bill for a rental.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly.



lordmayhem said:


> Yup. And it would set a definite time limit for her return. HiT wants her to stay as long as possible so his chances of getting full custody of the kids due to abandonment of the children, house, and marriage.


Exactly

She's leaving tonight. She was a sobbing mess a few minutes ago. She said nothing I have ever done shows her how much I love her than setting her free to decide. She says she hopes she gets there and doesn't like him so she can put an end to this thing once and for all. It kind of made me sad for her.

She says she understands this is killing me and she is sorry for hurting me. She says she feels this is something she has to do.

I told her exactly how it will go. I think I've already posted my projection. She said I don't know that. I said, I do. There is only one possible outcome. Anybody can put their best foot forward for a few days or week or whatever. Of course, he will bowl her over. Her blinders guarantee she will see no flaws. I told her it didn't matter. She has already ripped my heart out, tore it to shreds, shi- on it, and flushed it down the toilet. What else can she do to me? This next week will be total hell. I wish I had about a pound of pot. I'd just sit back and stay stoned the whole time. I don't even know where to get any. Maybe I'll have to check around. or just get shi- faced drunk. or find someone to take her place in bed for a while.

Kind of kidding on the things exept for the pot. I would like some of that. I'll just focus on the kids.


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## lordmayhem

I'm no lawyer, but you gotta admit it looks awfully good during a custody hearing when it's articulated like this:

_Said wife abandoned the children and the marriage, and gave no thought to the well being of her children by taking the family's only means of transportation (van), to drive across country to pursue her adulterous relationship with the other man._


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## SadSamIAm

My bet is she doesn't go! She will be too scared to lose her fantasy.


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## HurtinginTN

SadSamIAm said:


> My bet is she doesn't go! She will be too scared to lose her fantasy.



$100? Hey, maybe I'll send the kids to the grandparents and take my own trip to Tunica. Maybe I'll get my card counting books back out for Blackjack.


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## Powerbane

180 is for your benefit. 

If she does indeed go - keep contact to a minimum. Better yet tell her not to call you unless it is a dire emergency. Have her call her parents instead. Otherwise - go and have a good life.

Which brings me to another question - how in the heck is she paying for gas on the trip? 1500 miles one way 20hrs at least and figure gas at $3.50. Probably looking at $600 or more for a round trip. Not to mention if she needs to rest somewhere or have a meal. And we know damn sure OM aint putting any cash out. 

Take care Hurt - check yer mail when you can.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

> Because he would have to foot the bill for a rental.
> Posted via Mobile Device
> 
> Exactly.


Please explain WHY you would have to foot ANY BILL for HER rental?

I'm serious. WHY are YOU responsible for paying for HER fantasy? I don't understand.


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## karole

Why doesn't prince charming pay her way to see him? I'm sorry, but I hope that she stays out there with him. She has put TN through more than one human should suffer through in a lifetime. She deserves the OM - TN deserves so much more. \

TN, please, listen to the people here. You have gone above and beyond your duty as a husband to try to repair this marriage and she has sabatoged and back-stabbed you every step of the way. The best thing you can do is forget about her and get on with your life with your kids. You need to be keeping notes (if you haven't already) of the conversations you have w/her, her responses, dates and times that she leaves, anything that could be used as evidence in your divorce case against your wife to present to your lawyer when you file. I work in the legal system. I can tell you w/o a doubt that judges in the state I live in do not look well on cheating spouses. You have the advantage here, please use it. You don't need to play nice any longer. You need to think of you and your kids. Your wife is a big girl and is making her own decisions. Please let her suffer the consequences of those decisions. Good luck and I sincerely wish you the best and a better life. You certainly deserve it.


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## Eli-Zor

I think you need to follow the advice we are giving you now, she does not take your van or family money, you are not listening? She leaves, you bar her from house and home , talk to the children now and tell them the truth. Get your emotions under control and blank out your anger and feelings , cut her out of your lives and look after your kids. 

Your wife is a vampire sucking you dry and you are a sap letting her do so , buck up man and stand tall. Face the adversary and clinically deal with each challenge. You make the rules not her , as far as you are concerned she is gone permanently, deal with her as a deserter , she is now your foe treat her as such.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Have an intermediary lined up, enforce no contact with your wife only children critical messages are to be passed to you. If you need some guidance PM me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

Who cares about the money? So what. I'm tired. She will never end her affair unless she meets him. It's possible she will get on the way and realize what she is throwing away. One poster doesn't think she will go through with it. If she does actually make it out there, she may turn right around and come back. She may stay out there forever. Who knows? I don't. I do know that she thinks this is something she has to do. Isn't that what you guys have been telling me? Just set her free. Just set myself free? I can't control her actions or feelings. So what if she blows some money. So what. It'll most likely be split soon anyway. This trip will come out of her half. 

I'm tired. I have done everything I can do to save this BS marriage. I'm letting go. Let the chips fall where they may. I'll be contacting my cousin, the divorce attorney, to see where to go from here. I'm done with the stupid ass games.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

hurtingintn said:


> i'm tired. I have done everything i can do to save this bs marriage. I'm letting go. Let the chips fall where they may. I'll be contacting my cousin, the divorce attorney, to see where to go from here. I'm done with the stupid ass games.


bravo!!!!!


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## Jellybeans

You are getting there, TN! Embrace your anger!!! 

She has been doing you dirty for a long time and it seems you are finally starting to see that. 



HurtinginTN said:


> Isn't that what you guys have been telling me? Just set her free. Just set myself free? I can't control her actions or feelings. So what if she blows some money. So what. .



We have been telling you to let her go but we've also said DO NOT enable her affair. By lending her a car and/or giving her $ for gas/rental car, you are enabling it. So don't. Just tell her, "Have fun on your trip. I am done. I will not lie to the children about where you are either so you can tell them yousrelf." And then walk away. Do not even talk to her after that. 



HurtinginTN said:


> I'm done with the stupid ass
> games.


Offtopic but how come when someone types "ass" it doesn't come out in astericks but if you say D*UCHEBAG (minus the asterick), it comes out like this ********?

Weird!


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## Jellybeans

HurtinginTN said:


> She's leaving tonight. She was a sobbing mess a few minutes ago. She said nothing I have ever done shows her how much I love her than setting her free to decide. She says she hopes she gets there and doesn't like him so she can put an end to this thing once and for all. It kind of made me sad for her.
> 
> She says she understands this is killing me and she is sorry for hurting me. She says she feels this is something she has to do..


What a total fruitcake. Seriously. I want to knock her out. Any other TAM ladies want to take turns? 



HurtinginTN said:


> I wish I had about a pound of pot.


:rofl:

*DO NOT PROVIDE HER WITH TRANSPORATION!!!!!!!!!! *

How are you going to get around w/ your kids if she takes the car?? 

Tell everyone when she is gone where she is going. Her family, yours, URRYBODY!


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## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> I will not lie to the children about where you are either so you can tell them yousrelf."


I won't tell the kids where she is going. They will figure it out eventually. She will always be their mother. I will do all I can to put her in a positive light in front of them. They do know she has a boyfriend. They do know that is wrong. They don't need any other details at this point, at least. Maybe never. I won't bash her in front of them. She loves them and they love her. I wouldn't do anything to change that.


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## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> How are you going to get around w/ your kids if she takes the car??


I'll either rent a car or borrow one from family for a while. If she stays very long, I'll look at other options.


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## Jellybeans

WHY would you do that? 

WHY would you make it easy for her to go make her affair real now?

WHY are you enabling her affair by lending her transportation.

TN............you REALLLLLLLLLLLY need to man up right now. Let her see a man who respsepcts himself. Tell her she is NOT allowed to take the car to go see her boyfriend. That you have children that need to get around with you, to find her own way.

If OM wants to see her so bad, he can pay her way. Tell her that.


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## Grayson

One benefit to her taking the van was pointed out by a few, and put into a perfect perspective by lordmayhem: Not only will she be abandoning the family (tipping the divorce conditions in Hurting's favor), but will also demonstrate that, despite lip service to the contrary, she cares so little for her kids that she took the family's only means of transportation to further her affair.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

Great. So she should pay for her own van!


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## Grayson

But that doesn't put the added nails in her proverbial coffin by taking the family's only transportation. If she buys her own van, it leaves Hurting and the kids with guarantees transportation while she's gone. If she effectively leaves them stranded, that's something the judge will just love when deciding custody, etc.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadSamIAm

Jellybeans ... why are you putting up roadblocks to her making the trip? This is what 'hurt' needs. He needs her to get out of 'limbo'. 

If he tells her she can't take the van, she will say, "Boo Hoo, I can't see my man!". If he tells her she has to rent a car she will have another excuse.

There needs to be no excuses. Hand her the keys.


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## Jellybeans

Sorry but I disagree. I don't think she should be taking the family car to go have an affair. No effing way. If she wants to get there she can pay her own way to get there, or Phantom OM can.


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## Jellybeans

SadSamIAm said:


> Jellybeans ... why are you putting up roadblocks to her making the trip? This is what 'hurt' needs. He needs her to get out of 'limbo'.


I'm not putting the roadblocks up. I think she should go. Totally. And I think TN should let her go from his heart. I just think it's ridiculous to help facillitate her affair. Like I said, if she wants to go so badly, she should find her own way. To me it sounds like ther eis more cake-eating on her part if he just hands the keys over... makes him look like a doormat. 

But either way, TN will do wahtever he wants so I think regardless of how she gets there, go see a lawyer and have papers drawn up. If she is taking it this far and still feeding you the same BS lines..................be done with her. You deserve so much better. SO much better, TN.


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## SadSamIAm

I say call her bluff! I think she is bluffing and feeding off of the attention from her husband and her OM. 

I actually hope she isn't bluffing, because it will be easier for 'hunt' to move on. But I think she is bluffing and she will find an excuse why she can't go. Even if he gave her the van and spending money and packed her bag for her.


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## Jellybeans

^ LOL about packing her bag up.

Seriously. Snile at her when she leaves and tell her you hope she has fun. When she calls you after she's left DO NOT ANSWER ANY OF HER PHONE CALLS. NONE. ZERO. NADA>


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## Grayson

I think we all pretty much agree he deserves better. I think he's finally realized that, too.

Given the depths she's willing to go to, I see no problem with standing back and letting her have whatever size shovel she wants to dig her own grave. In fact, I think that can do nothing but help Hurting when it comes to custody decisions, etc. Yes, her taking the van is TERRIBLY unfair to Hurting and the kids. All the more reason to let her. Let her try to claim that she's the better parent when she left the kids without transportation, forcing Hurting to spend money to rent a vehicle...while wifey's simultaneously draining family funds that would allow him to do that, all so she can go on he cross-country booty call.

Let her show the world (including the judge) EXACTLY the kind of person she truly is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

Your doing the right thing hurting. Keep yourself occupied so you don't go crazy. If you can go camping or something with the kids for a while, do that. DO NOT answer the phone until she is back. Let it go to voice mail. That includes if she calls apologizing all over the place. Let her drive back not knowing what is going on. If it's an emergency, have someone else respond like her folks. BUT keep yourself occupied somehow.


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## 8yearscheating

My favorite distraction is going to the rnage for a couple of hours. Even if you are an not avid gun person, check around, most ranges rent guns for the range. Just remember, nothing stupid or I'll come there myself and bury your a$$ in a pile of garbage.


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## SadSamIAm

She's not going anywhere! She is bluffing!!! She won't give up her family for her fantasy. She has been punishing hurt by throwing the fantasy man in his face and threatening to go so him.


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## lordmayhem

HurtinginTN said:


> She said nothing I have ever done shows her how much I love her than setting her free to decide. She says she hopes she gets there and doesn't like him so she can put an end to this thing once and for all. It kind of made me sad for her.


Totally insane crazy talk, driving halfway across the country and she hopes she doesn't like him? You know its all BS. The fog is so thick you can cut it with a knife. You really weren't kidding when you said she wanted to go to him so badly. I expected her to leave on Friday, but tonight? I can imagine as I'm posting this, she's already on the road. They'll be talking or texting the whole way with anticipation.


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## turnera

Actually, I kind of agree with her, in her fog-addled brain. If you love someone, you let them do what they need to do.


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## Jellybeans

Update, TN?


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## HurtinginTN

When I got home last night, she was almost done packing. I took the kids to her parents to go swimming. She gave them all a big hug and kiss, but didn't tell them she was leaving. I got to do that when they got home.

We had a very emotional departure. We both cried like crazy. I cried an hour after she left. I am glad the kids weren't here. I had bought a bottle of whiskey on the way home. I don't drink. I took a couple of swigs, and put the bottle up. Getting blitzed won't help. Especially knowing the emotional time when the kids got home.

I told them when they got home that Mommy needed to get away. She is going to be gone for a few days. All 3 were upset, but my middle one is the most emotional. She is pretty much attached at the hip to her mother. She cried for quite a while while I rocked her. She wanted to call her Mommy, but I told her after she calms down. I did call her and let the kids talk to her.

I made popcorn, sat on the couch, and watched "The Wild Thornberry's" with them. They called her again before we went to bed. We all slept in our bed. She called me later and we talked for about an hour. She said she has thought about the good times we had as she passed things we did together. However, she was still driving. I haven't talked to her today.

It is very hard. It will be harder when she actually gets there. My brother and I discovered an entrance to a cave a few months ago. At least we believe it is a cave. There is a hole with cool air blowing out of it. I believe I'll get a car and take the kids up there for the weekend and explore the cave. I may be able to find something better to smoke than Marlboro's as well

I wrote in a journal this morning. About 3 pages front and back. I want so bad to think there is still a shot. I know that is not logical. I know it is against all of the evidence. But, incredibly, I still love her. I know I have to let her go. In more ways than one. On the trip and in life. Let the chips fall where they may. I'm not as concerned about me. I know I will move on. I know I will find someone else. I do love her, but I know there are plenty of fish and the sea. Regardless of how she acts, I don't believe I am such a bad catch. I hate to think about the effect on the kids. But that is not my choice. I believe I have done all I can. I can look back on it with good conscience.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

pet cemetary bro... remember that anology.

you have to let it go.

protect the kids, hang in there. It will be fine.


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## Jellybeans

STOP calling her. WHY are you answering her calls? She just left you go to see another man!!!


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## Jellybeans

Pit, what is the pet cemetery story again. I forgot.


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## Eli-Zor

Tell your children, you are enabling her affair by not doing so please do listen and stop sweeping this under the rug. Your children, her family and yours must know she is off to her FB. You have done little of nothing of what we have suggested yet you live in hope, your action determines the way forward. You love your children start showing that love by opposing her lies.

I am beginning to suspect you may have made a deal with her and have agreed to cover up and deceive your family as to her where abouts , is this the case?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

I would tell the kids. I know you don't want to but you are totally helping keep her affair a secret.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

Jellybeans said:


> Pit, what is the pet cemetery story again. I forgot.


Told him that if she "comes back" it will not be the person he thinks...



Pit (may 19) said:


> Here is an analogy which I think fits….
> 
> IF and I mean huge IF you "save" or resuscitate this corpse now it will be similar to the movie/book "pet cemetery"....
> 
> You just couldn’t let the dead thing go, couldn’t deal with the loss so you brought it back but the thing you brought back is not the thing you remember, it is a dangerous sick echo of a memory. It will hurt and destroy everything in it's path (your children’s emotional well being and any future relationships they hoped to have) before you eventually have to FINALLY "put it down" again. But not before it makes you crazy and reeks further havoc on your world.
> 
> I think the tagline from that movie was "Sometimes dead is better."


----------



## paramore

Hurt, I am so sorry it has come to this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Powerbane

Damn Hurt. Cut off the comms. 

I wish you well. I know if it were me - don't come back. I know I would NOT be able to handle all the uncertainty of what happened when she gets there. 

I'll be praying for you both my friend. 

Don't be a stranger.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

I hate to even be thinking this but, what if she decides to come back and wants to work on things with you? Are you willing to let her? She has been emotionally involved with this OM for almost a year now and now she is going to him. I guess what I am asking is, do you have enough self respect to move on without her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Dial the phone and hand it immediately to the kids. Hang up when they are done. She is dead to you now.


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## HurtinginTN

Yes, she asked me not to tell anyone where she was going. I agreed since it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out. They will know when she left and places she has been. She just called to talk to the kids. She is in Kansas. She drove through the night. With me at the cabin, she was ready for bed at 10:00, and for nothing besides sleep. For him, she has driven all night long. I don't think there is any possibility of reconciliation at this point.

Yes, I know the pet cemetary thing. I suppose that is what you may be considering at this point as well, my friend. We spoke when she called this time, but there wasn't much to say on either end. She'll be there in 4 hours. Who knows when she'll be back. I wonder if it may not even be "when" but "if". I am prepared to move on without her. That's pretty much what I told her this time. When she left, she said she was looking forward to the time alone more than she was looking forward to meeting him. I called BS, but she talked about staying in a hotel alone and having her own schedule. I mentioned that her driving through the night shows that being with him is the sole intention of this trip. If not, why not stop and sleep?


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## 8yearscheating

You can't cut the kids off from their mom as others have suggested and I completely disagree with giving them details of what she is doing even in the most general way. They are not adults, won't understand, are likely to think it's their fault or mom doesn't love them. Of absolutely no good reason or value. This is an adult issue and even if Hurting DS it should stay that way. I wish everyone would get the hell off telling the kids. It's selfish and using them as weapon. No IC, Priest or MC would ever suggest doing that. Lastly, if he Rs or Ds she should not have children hating her
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

8yearscheating said:


> You can't cut the kids off from their mom as others have suggested and I completely disagree with giving them details of what she is doing even in the most general way. They are not adults, won't understand, are likely to think it's their fault or mom doesn't love them. Of absolutely no good reason or value. This is an adult issue and even if Hurting DS it should stay that way. I wish everyone would get the hell off telling the kids. It's selfish and using them as weapon. No IC, Priest or MC would ever suggest doing that. Lastly, if he Rs or Ds she should not have children hating her
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I agree with this 100 percent. She will always be their mother. I will not tell them. The adults will figure it out for themselves. I won't have to say a word. They'll ask where she is. I'll say she wanted to get away. The kids will mention Kansas and she drove all night long, etc. It's not rocket science for an adult to put 2 and 2 together. They know he lives in Denver.


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## Eli-Zor

This is bull pick up that phone and tell her parents and sister where she is , stop hiding away, you tell your children their mommy has left to be with the bad guy but she still loves them as do you. Stop behaving like a martyr hoping that someone out there will find out the truth and do the Maths. Her parents and siblings can contact her after you have told them . 

Please pick up that phone and call them. You never ever negotiate with a wayward. Furthermore when she is in cloud nine playing slap with OM do you think she gives a sh?t about you or your children. Her family can be witness to her abandoning your children , you will need this as a wayward in an affair planning on moving in with the OM will less than pleasant to you and will take your sorry arse to the cleaners and isolate you. It will be a proud day in hell when your kids call OM dad, is that what you want.

I want shake you to get your brain working... Man up
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

I will never understand why anyone would advocate telling young children about infidelity. Do you have any idea the ramifications that can have on a child's psyche?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Pidge... This is not a debate on how to lie to the children , his children know she has left home, what do you think is going through their minds when the only person who they can trust , their dad, is deceiving them as well, I guess when the wife introduces the OM as their new dad all will be well. He must tell the truth, his words have to be carefully selected but once done they will know that dad is there for them, that he loves them and is going to protect them.

If there is anyone who wants to discuss the pro and cons of telling the children then start a new thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Eli-Zor

Futhermore HTN is in a bad place and needs to take action now. A concerted effort is required to guide HTN to take action.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70

Fortunately it is HIS decision and it should be respected. 

My youngest daughter tried to hang herself when she found out what was going on between her father and I. She ended up in a pediatric psychiatric ward for 5 days. She is now not only on mood stabilizers, she also sees a counselor weekly and a psychiatrist monthly. TN children are too young and he is protecting them the way he sees fit.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

Powerbane said:


> I wish you well. I know if it were me - don't come back. I know I would NOT be able to handle all the uncertainty of what happened when she gets there.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is no uncertainty. McDonald's will play out in spades.



turnera said:


> Dial the phone and hand it immediately to the kids. Hang up when they are done. She is dead to you now.


Yes



Eli-Zor said:


> This is bull pick up that phone and tell her parents and sister where she is , stop hiding away, you tell your children their mommy has left to be with the bad guy but she still loves them as do you. Stop behaving like a martyr hoping that someone out there will find out the truth and do the Maths. Her parents and siblings can contact her after you have told them .
> 
> Please pick up that phone and call them. You never ever negotiate with a wayward. Furthermore when she is in cloud nine playing slap with OM do you think she gives a sh?t about you or your children. Her family can be witness to her abandoning your children , you will need this as a wayward in an affair planning on moving in with the OM will less than pleasant to you and will take your sorry arse to the cleaners and isolate you. It will be a proud day in hell when your kids call OM dad, is that what you want.
> 
> I want shake you to get your brain working... Man up
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


All of her family has talked to her repeatedly. She has not listened. She sure won't listen now.

There was no negotiating. I'm tired. I had already started a thread on Considering Divorce before this trip. 



Eli-Zor said:


> Pidge... This is not a debate on how to lie to the children , his children know she has left home, what do you think is going through their minds when the only person who they can trust , their dad, is deceiving them as well, I guess when the wife introduces the OM as their new dad all will be well. He must tell the truth, his words have to be carefully selected but once done they will know that dad is there for them, that he loves them and is going to protect them.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


They know she has left due to the problems we are having. They know she has a boyfriend. They know I am here with them and for them. We all slept in the same bed last night, as I'm sure we will the entire time. We just spent about 3 hours getting a rental car. Now we are going to the river. She is there with him by now. I am not going to dwell on what she is doing anymore. I am moving on with me and my kids.


----------



## HurtinginTN

pidge70 said:


> I hate to even be thinking this but, what if she decides to come back and wants to work on things with you? Are you willing to let her? She has been emotionally involved with this OM for almost a year now and now she is going to him. I guess what I am asking is, do you have enough self respect to move on without her?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


When she comes back, or if she comes back, she is not going to want to work on things with me. The fog is waaaayyy toooooo thick for her to see anything at all wrong with Prince Charming. This is the end.

On the very off chance she does want to work things out, I will be very surprised. I am ready to move on. There would have to be extremely tremendous change to consider working on it. I don't see that coming.

Also, she said, "I'll keep my phone on and by my side the whole time." My daughter just wanted to call her. The phone is off. There is a slight possibility the battery died since she doesn't have a phone charger. The more likely reason is she is with him and turned it off. No, I don't see any "working on it" in my future.


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## pidge70

I am so sorry. I pray you find peace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 8yearscheating

For god's sake Eli. Respect his decision. Young kind all the way to teenagers have no business being involved. He has already told her family
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyGriffinFan

Wait, am I understanding correctly...you let her use the van to go visit the OM, you just spent 3 hours getting a rental that you will have to pay for, she doesn't work, you provide...and now you're covering for her as to her whereabouts (and I mean, not telling her family...not talking about the kids issue)........:scratchhead:


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## HurtinginTN

KathyGriffinFan said:


> Wait, am I understanding correctly...you let her use the van to go visit the OM, you just spent 3 hours getting a rental that you will have to pay for, she doesn't work, you provide...:


Yes



KathyGriffinFan said:


> and now you're covering for her as to her whereabouts (and I mean, not telling her family...not talking about the kids issue)........:scratchhead:


I'm not lying. I told them she said she needed to get away and I said OK. The kids don't need to know where she went at this point. If she decides to tell them, she can. The adults know enough to figure it out. I am sure her father knows her destination. I went there to get my son's swim trunks. The kids were excited to show him and one of my sister in laws the rental car. They asked why the rental car. The kids told them Mommy had taken a trip. I said she needed to get away. The kids told them she was in Kansas last time they talked to her and that she had driven straight through the night. At the point they talked to her, she had been driving 16 hours straight, stopping only for coffee and gas. Her father mentioned that was an awfully long way to drive just to get away. I agreed. Her sister knew exactly where she was going right away. As I said all along, the adults will know immediately without me having to say anything. The kids are having a hard enough time with just knowing she is gone. I am giving them a good weekend. There will be too many hard days ahead for them. They don't need to know the gory details.


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## Squiffy

HurtinginTN, I wish you all the best and hope that things work out for you and your children. I can see you have their interests at heart and are trying to protect them. You know them best, just do what feels right in your heart to do. I am very sorry that you are in this difficult situation.


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## MrQuatto

HurtinginTN said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not lying. I told them she said she needed to get away and I said OK. The kids don't need to know where she went at this point. If she decides to tell them, she can. The adults know enough to figure it out. I am sure her father knows her destination. I went there to get my son's swim trunks. The kids were excited to show him and one of my sister in laws the rental car. They asked why the rental car. The kids told them Mommy had taken a trip. I said she needed to get away. The kids told them she was in Kansas last time they talked to her and that she had driven straight through the night. At the point they talked to her, she had been driving 16 hours straight, stopping only for coffee and gas. Her father mentioned that was an awfully long way to drive just to get away. I agreed. Her sister knew exactly where she was going right away. As I said all along, the adults will know immediately without me having to say anything. The kids are having a hard enough time with just knowing she is gone. I am giving them a good weekend. There will be too many hard days ahead for them. They don't need to know the gory details.


Hurting, everything you have done here, EVERYTHING has only served to make her situation extremely comfortable for her. There are no consequences. She is not in any distress. 

Here is the basic overview.... I need the van, and money to get there. YOU will have to make other arrangements while i'm gone. 

Don't tell anyone where i went or what I am doing, especially the kids. Just do whatever you have to do to put their mind aty ease while I am gone. 

IF I decide to come back, we will talk about what YOU will need to change to make me happier. However, If I like him, I MAY come back to get my stuff, our kids and your money so make SURE you do nothing while I am out SLEEPING WITH ANOTHER MAN!


Dude, you have been more then patient, more than optimistic but at this point, you need to change the locks, file a restraining order and a divorce. I know it is tiring but one reason it is so is because YOU are doing ALL the work, SHE is doing NONE! If your not going to drop the bomb on her now, you might as well buy a t-shirt with the words DOOR MAT on it and consign yourself to being her whipping boy.

Q~


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## HurtinginTN

We hadn't heard from her. Her sister called her brother to see if she might be there. He is working in Kansas and that is the last place she was when we talked to her yesterday around lunch. Her sister was worried about her. Her brother was worried about her. He asked for information on OM. I gave him his cell number. He just called back to say that she is OK. He is going to call his sister to let her know. He talked to her on OM's cell phone. Guess what, she's pissed at me because her brother called OM's cell phone. lol WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Like I said earlier, it didn't take rocket science for them to know where she was. I didn't have to say a word. When he asked directly for the information, I gave it to him. They were all worried about her. 

He is going to try to get her to come stay with him in Kansas. I suspect at this point she will stay in Denver. I am a wreck. I need to get it together and go take the kids to the river. I know I have to move on. It's crazy, I know, but I don't want to give up the extremely tiny thread of hope. I know. My marriage has been over for a long time. I have been in denial. I think I still am, somewhat. I can't handle thinking about it right this moment. I have to spend some time with my kids having fun.


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## Powerbane

And no thought to call and let you know she got there. I'd say it's over. 

Sorry man.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadSamIAm

I feel so bad for you hurt. You are a very dedicated man. Maybe some don't agree with your approach. But you have done your best to show your wife you love her. She has taken advantage of you. 

She has proven that she isn't worthy of you. You have to move on. There is a very high probability that she will want you back. Once reality sets in. You have to be strong and move on. You might have a tough few months, but the rest of your life will worth it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

Powerbane said:


> And no thought to call and let you know she got there. I'd say it's over.
> 
> Sorry man.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I see that. Her brother and sister also see the selfishness in not calling to say she is OK.



SadSamIAm said:


> I feel so bad for you hurt. You are a very dedicated man. Maybe some don't agree with your approach. But you have done your best to show your wife you love her. She has taken advantage of you.
> 
> She has proven that she isn't worthy of you. You have to move on. There is a very high probability that she will want you back. Once reality sets in. You have to be strong and move on. You might have a tough few months, but the rest of your life will worth it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, it is time to move on. Yesterday, I told the kids "Let's work on cleaning the house to surprise Mommy when she comes home." I was actually thinking if I make the home as peaceful as possible, it will be more appealing to her. I know, my smog is just as thick as her fog.

This morning, I was just a blubbering mess. I'm glad the kids were at my sister-in-laws. I got my composure (for the moment at least). I worked on the kitchen and have a load of laundry in the wash. My motivation is no longer to make her happy. It is for me and the kids. I believe I am composed enough to go take them for some fun in the sun. Yes, it is time to move on.


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## Lazarus

When something is plentiful it is not valued. 

When something is rare, it's valued. 

Don't be too available. Your wife has treated you badly. 

Make the kids feel precious. It's their future that matters. Anything you do now will pay dividends for them in the future.

Keep strong for the kids. You are all they've got.

Their Mom isn't present in their lives and in time the kids will come to understand the difference between a parent that cares and one that does not. 

She leaves a terrible legacy of hurt.

Good luck. It won't be easy but everything you do now is for the kids.


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## HurtinginTN

Yes, the kids are my focus. We had a lot of fun at the river. My daughter wanted to call her a few times. I let her try and the phone was off. They are sleeping over at their aunts again. The time with their cousins seems to be taking away their thoughts of Mommy being gone. The happier they are, the better.


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## lordmayhem

Just keep focusing on your children and detaching from the STBXW. You already knew she was going to do this. She drove through the night and then on to see him. That shows just how much she loves and is excited to see him. Then when she gets there, too busy to even call the children because she's too busy banging the OM now and partying. 

Stay stong HiT for your children. They need you most right now. Remember this weekend for years to come. When you can, go for full custody. This is a woman that has abandoned her children, marriage, and husband to serve her own very selfish and sinful needs.


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## HurtinginTN

Yes, it's playing out just as I thought it would. My daughter did want to call her today. She left her a message. The kids are doing better. The girls had a sleepover with my brother's daughter last night. My son stayed at my parents with me and kicked the other boys' butts (including mine) at Go Fish. They are doing good. Off to the inlaws for a cookout and goint to watch fireworks. My inlaws are very involved in my children's lives. Some have said, even on the 180, not to be involved with the inlaws. They are as much my family after 13 years as my own. I believe I will always keep a good relationship with them.


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## elph

There is no point in punishing the inlays for the choices of your wife. I too am very lucky to have a good relationship with my inlaws. And feel as if they are more my family than mine was. Heck my inlaws are even punishing my wife. They don't condone the relationship at all. Everything is going to be with held from her so long as he's in the picture. Amd Im fortunate that they love their grandson. It's helping the transition while my wife and I separate. 
On the same in law note she has mentioned to her mom that she found some of the articles I've printed out. One was even a guide to reconciling. She made a commentto her mom who told me about it. She said all that is fine and good but they should've listed MC a little more she then asked ifthats something I'd be willing to do. 

So you never know. When you wife falls flat on her face. AND SHE WILL, your in laws can let u k ow and you can at least get some sadistic satisfaction there. .
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## KathyGriffinFan

Hurt, are you writing everything down? Have you begun consulting with an attorney? Are you getting your ducks in a row?

Now is the time to do this, before she has any chance to react or begin her own process.

At this point, you have to assume she's abandoned you and your children. Please act fast. If something changes, that's fine, but at least be prepared. I get you're hurt, heartbroken, pissed...all the words that fail to describe 1/100th of what you're going through, but please, gather yourself together and do this for your kids.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

Yes, please write everything down. In detail.

Even if you never use it, you want to have it.

If you dont have the energy to sit down and write logs, take one of the VAR's Im sure you have and keep it in your pocket, you want this information. Record everything. As KGF said, "for the kids".


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## Shooboomafoo

Just dropping in on your thread to say "hey". Pullin for you man.


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## HurtinginTN

I lied to my son. I feel horrible for doing it. I just felt that discussion was better saved for later on. He said last night with tears in his eyes, "She might not ever come back." He is 8 years old. He said my mom said that to me and him. I don't remember hearing that. I told him if she said that, she was just kidding. I'm sure she was, if she said that. I don't think he heard correctly. I need to call her and see if she did so I can put it in context. IF she did, I will be angry. That was not something appropriate to say in front of my son. I don't believe she did, unless joking, since the kids told her she had gone to visit her brother and I let it go at that. She did tell them she is going to see him Sunday. I have talked to him and she is planning on going to stay with him for a while (however long that is). 

I told my son that his mother loves him. He will see her again. I do believe that is true. But he said, "She MIGHT not ever come back." That was a true statement that I have thought since the moment she pulled out of the driveway. I didn't want him, at 8, dealing with what MIGHT happen. IF she doesn't, I hope someday he will understand why I didn't agree with him when he said that.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

You have enough on your plate brother, don't allow yourself to add guilt to the load your carrying. You don't have the answer to the question he was asking.

Please read the book I recommended re; children/divorce. You need to understand how to answer the questions that are coming from them and you need to know what is going on in their heads so that you can do everything possible to soften the damage from the emotional atomic bomb your W just dropped on them.


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## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Please read the book I recommended re; children/divorce.


Thanks, PIT. It is a beast of a book and I'm sure it isn't an easy read, emotionally. Any recommendation on where to start? Do you recommend a particular chapter or anything, or just start at the beginning? I have to say that I a haven't cracked it open. It has been in the closet. I will break it out tonight.


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## HurtinginTN

Shooboomafoo said:


> Just dropping in on your thread to say "hey". Pullin for you man.


Thanks!


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

yes, actually it suprisingly easy to read and my understanding is that the book is more of a referrence type book than a sit down/cover-to-cover type read... It's really easy to navigate.

I recommend you skip right to the parts that are age specific. 

Depending on the ages of your children it will tell you what is going through their minds and how they are coping with this emotionally/mentally. It will also give you specific "exercises" or activities that you can do with the kids which are fun but also give you some insight into what is going on with them emotionally and suggestions about what you can do. Really, its all about communication and healthy outlets to communicate the way they feel. 

Much of what you learn about the way they feel will not be spoken/communicated directly to you.. there will be non-verbal cues and indicators based on the activities that you will learn to look for. Based on those, you can find a way to get them to talk to you.


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## HurtinginTN

Thanks! I knew my son was upset yesterday, but I couldn't put my finger on it. He had held that thought inside all day long. He's usually not much of a cuddler. We cuddled until he went to sleep. Actually, musical cuddling. He got the whole night, while my girls rotated. Everyone wanted to lay next to Daddy last night. That big King Size bed she wanted so bad years ago is finally being put to good use.

By the way, POMS, lol on your location.:rofl:


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## Powerbane

Hurt - you do need to prepare yourself for her maybe not coming back. 

Keep your family close through all this, your in-laws included. It's good that you do have their support. Just be careful of tales she might spin to them concerning you if she does come back. 

Sounds like a classic case of Walk Away Wife syndrome at this stage. Divorce Busters has some good information on this. Best bet is to continue to detach and concentrate on you and the kids. You can't save her from herself right now. Give her the space to figure it out. (She may not though). Keep yourself busy and try to stop the virtual movies in your head about what she may or not be doing. Detach and tell your in-laws and her siblings to not talk or tell you about anything she is doing unless it's some concern about kids. This is for your own mental health. Detach brother. Here is a good article from Livestrong Developing Detachment | LIVESTRONG.COM

Protect yourself and the kids. Get the lawyer ready. Keep OM bastard away from them at least. 

Sorry for not giving you a ring. Been crazy and I've been out of town with my family all week.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem

I think it would be a great idea to have a Morality Clause included in any divorce decree. That way *OM cannot spend the night* during her alloted days with the children.


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## HurtinginTN

Powerbane said:


> Hurt - you do need to prepare yourself for her maybe not coming back.
> 
> Sorry for not giving you a ring. Been crazy and I've been out of town with my family all week.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yes, I have been going kind of crazy today. I had to close the door to my office a bit ago and let the tears roll. I didn't shed one yesterday. They don't want to stop today. I have looked at the article you linked. I believe that is the one you emailed me. I printed it out. 

No problem on the call. I spent some time in God's country this weekend so the reception wasn't good anyway. Let me know when you get up this way. We'll have to drink a beer together. I'll probably be spending a lot of time in our old stomping grounds. Funny that we probably ran into each other at some point. 

I am having trouble detaching. I did good this weekend around the kids. Being at work, everything is driving me crazy. 

I have to get back to life as it was before all of this. Like Shooboomafoo posted once, before all of this, I was. I helped my parents' neighbor haul hay this weekend. My brother joked that it had been quite a while since I had done that. 15 - 20 years probably. I had to explain to my kids what I meant by "hauling hay". WOW. It's starting to come to light how differently they have been raised than I was. I grew up in the country. They have not. She wanted that big house in a subdivision. I wanted a farm. Guess who won? That has been my marriage. I always gave up what I wanted to try to make her happy. For what? For her to run off. 

If only I could turn back the clock and do things differently. But I can't. I have to accept the current reality and try to determine the best future for me and my children. Man, life just sucks sometimes.


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## Powerbane

Yeah it does suck. 

Doesn't mean you can't pick up the pieces and find someone who will love you forever. 

Hauling hay - that takes me back. Good for the mind, body and soul. Start planning for your dream my friend. With her or without her. But definitely with the kids. 

JP
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

HurtinginTN said:


> She wanted that big house in a subdivision. I wanted a farm. Guess who won? That has been my marriage. I always gave up what I wanted to try to make her happy. For what? For her to run off.


Just want to point out - not fo ryou, Hurt, but for others who are benefiting from reading your thread - that giving ANY person everything they want nearly always results in such a reaction. It's just not good for us to become so secure that we stop caring about others' happiness.

Have you considered getting a therapist for your kids?


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

Hauling hay? We just called it bailing. I know, the hay was already bailed... we had to load it, move it and barn it.. but we always just called it bailing... I spent years bailing every summer. Dad usta give me like .25 a bail. Until I was about 15 year old and realized he was robbing me, lol. Following year he bought me a new dirtbike after a long summer of bailing... I remember them fondly now, but they sucked pretty bad then. lol.

get a chance to read any of the book I recommended? I read quite a bit again last night, I recommend you jump right to the "telling kids" section and how kids view parental fighting and the longterm effects of conflict within the household on children.

Also, read the section with the "grocery list" of art supplies it recommends you purchase and jump to some of the projects... It will give you and the kids some quality time to work on fun art projects and could also shed some light on what is going on with them. 

Stay busy, one foot in front of the other.


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## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> get a chance to read any of the book I recommended? I read quite a bit again last night, I recommend you jump right to the "telling kids" section and how kids view parental fighting and the longterm effects of conflict within the household on children.
> 
> Also, read the section with the "grocery list" of art supplies it recommends you purchase and jump to some of the projects... It will give you and the kids some quality time to work on fun art projects and could also shed some light on what is going on with them.
> 
> Stay busy, one foot in front of the other.


No, I didn't read any last night. I had to do some laundry so I had a shirt for work today. Also, my son had ordered a new WII game for his birthday. It came in the mail yesterday, so I sat with him a while watching him play it. I figure they can use the direct attention at this point in time more than anything. I was planning on reading some after they went to sleep, but I was snoozing soon after. That was the best night of sleep I've had since she left. I guess exhaustion is a good sleep aid.


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## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> Just want to point out - not fo ryou, Hurt, but for others who are benefiting from reading your thread - that giving ANY person everything they want nearly always results in such a reaction. It's just not good for us to become so secure that we stop caring about others' happiness.
> 
> Have you considered getting a therapist for your kids?


I agree 100%. I thought I was being a good husband by never saying no to her requests. Turns out, I was being a bad husband by never saying no. That seems very counter-intuitive to me. The more you do for someone, the less they appreciate it. I guess it's like spoiling your children. If you never tell them "No", they just expect more and more and never appreciate anything. 

I had not thought about a therapist for them yet. I do have the book Pit is reading. That's another thing I need to add to my list. Here is my list so far. Please let me know if you see anything else.

1. Change the beneficiary on my life insurance policy. I am leaning toward a trust in my children's name with stipulations on what it is to be used for. Once my son (youngest) reaches 18 or 21 (haven't decided), dissolve the trust equally among the three of them. I don't want there to be any incentive for W and OM to think they can live the good life off of my death. I don't think she would kill me, but then again, I never thought she would do what she is doing. Better to take away any doubt and incentive.

2. Enroll the kids in school. I have delayed on this and should have already done it. I am researching the tests they use to determine what grade previously home-schooled children should be in. I am a little concerned about that. What if they don't do well on the test and they are placed in lower grades than age appropriate? I know I can work with them to bring them up to speed on any area that is considered lacking, but I want to find some practice tests to do with them before I do the actual registration.

3. Liquidate our assets (big house full of stuff where I never said no) and put the house on the market. I haven't decided the best way to sell everything. I am leaning toward just loading it all up and taking it to an auction house. They usually charge a hefty commission, so I know we would get more money on Ebay or something. That would be very time consuming and I believe the loss in money would be warranted for a quicker fix. Also, there are several home repairs that need to be done that may help the sale price of the home. I have been wanting to do them myself, but it may be more expedient to hire someone to fix them.

4. I need another vehicle. In the short term, I can ride my FIL's bike to work (next week. I have a rental for this week.) I'll need to sell some stuff first to get the cash for that. With all of the "Yes's" over the years, my credit sucks.


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## totallyconfused

You may have said this already and I missed it, but what are you doing to disentangle assets? Joint credit cards? Checking accounts? Automatic deposits? I'm sure there's a laundry list for financial disentanglement steps, whether divorce is in the immediate future or not.


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## HurtinginTN

totallyconfused said:


> You may have said this already and I missed it, but what are you doing to disentangle assets? Joint credit cards? Checking accounts? Automatic deposits? I'm sure there's a laundry list for financial disentanglement steps, whether divorce is in the immediate future or not.


We have no credit cards. We have one checking account, which she has the debit card with her. I do have direct deposit going into that account. I will be opening a new account to transfer the money into. We have no cash assets. We have a house and lots of "stuff" inside. I am planning to sell all of it, pay off some of the debt, and split whatever is left.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

two things..

they might both be pretty obvious, Im certain it may have passed your mind but a nudge/push in the back can be helpful if you havent taken action on these two fronts... 

One, Ive mentioned obviously and I suspect you know this. Read the book. At least begin reading some of the chapters/short articles which I mentioned. Check the table of contents, find pieces that jump out at you as "need to know" asap... Aside from being helpful to the kids, its also proactive and as you have experienced in this process anything you can do that is action or proactive feels really good and will give you some peace in your mind. Stay active, don't sit still and don't dwell. Its not healthy right now, pick up the book. Now. 

Two, I dont think that you have mentioned and if you have given details I missed them. I have to suspect knowing what I know about you and this process that you are funding this trip she just took. She has no job and this d0uchebag she is visiting doesnt have anything either. Remember the "master plan" ? Believe me, this master plan was based on the riding on the back of the means your finances were going to provide. As an extension, *THEY CAN NOT BE TRUSTED * with access to your money. I dont know if you gave her cash for this trip (I hope) or if she still has access to a family credit or debit (Oh god I hope not) card... She can not have access to the money you need to provide for your children. Furthermore, HE can't have access through her, think about what you know about this guy. Isn't it prudent to think he could scam you, and her for that matter? *You are a single father TN.* Please if she has access to any family finances, cut them off immediately. If she has a debit card or credit card transfer all funds or freeze all funds at a certain amount. Give her access to XXX amount, no more.

**EDIT** you answered part of my question before I finished my reply.... PLEASE lock that debit card. Transfer all but XXX out of that account or put a safety clause forbidding charges over XXX to be made... Do this now. Right now. Pick up the phone. You have children to protect.


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## turnera

Yeah, shut off the money NOW. If she doesn't have money to return, she can go apply at McDonalds til she earns gas money.

Re your kids, go to the school district and ask them if they have a person who tests the kids to see what level they are at. I'm sure they do. They can tell you where to place them.


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## Jellybeans

Stop the bank accounts TODAY. 

TN, I am thinking about you and you're in my thoughts


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## MrQuatto

Jellybeans said:


> Stop the bank accounts TODAY.
> 
> TN, I am thinking about you and you're in my thoughts


Yes yes, by all means stop any access she has to your money. Your lucky if she hasn't cleaned them out already. Also, I know it is not what you want to hear but, strictly in my opinion, the kids need to know the truth. waywards have a loooooong history of painting the bs as the bad person to friends, family and children. She needs to be on the defensive when and if she returns. 

They do not need the gory details but letting them know she is doing wrong is in your best interest. Look at the damage caused to them already, lies upon lies upon lies and they KNOW something is not right. They may never forgive either of you for this if someone doesn't come clean about the situation.

Lastly, if she is not back soon, I would say you need check with an atty on your rights and liability with the vehicle as she left the marital home. Follow their direction to then report the vehicle as taken by your wife without your consent file whatever necessary to limit your liability on it. From there, tell your wife your are canceling the insurance on it and listing it as taken with the authorities and that it will be her full responsibility from there.

Lastly, time to file I think, Especially while she is still away.

Q~


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## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Read the book.
> 
> *You are a single father TN.* Please if she has access to any family finances, cut them off immediately. If she has a debit card or credit card transfer all funds or freeze all funds at a certain amount. Give her access to XXX amount, no more.


Yes, I will read it tonight, especially the sections you pointed out.

I agree on the Single Dad part and I'm acting accordingly. I had some insurance salesmen take me to lunch today and I got the number of the waitress. j/k. She was awfully cute, though. lol

I have the forms and just need the social security number and date of birth of my trusted friend who I will be naming as the beneficiary on my life insurance policy. I don't want that to be part of the "Master Plan". I certainly don't want him thinking he can trade an "accident" (he is a mechanic) for a few lambhorgini's. 

The debit card will not work if the funds aren't available. I learned that the embarrassing way not long ago. I had checked the balance, but there was a pending charge that didn't show up online. (It was the day before my direct deposit, so both should have gone through on the same day.) I had a cart full of groceries and my card was declined. I went to the ATM, which showed a balance sufficient for what I was buying. Only later research showed there was a pending charge that was already being taken into account. In other words, she can't take out what's not there.

I went by the bank this morning and withdrew cash for the essentials. There is some left in the account for automatic withdrawals that will be coming out. I do monitor it on a daily basis. There have only been some charges for gas so far. There isn't much there they can take if they try to go that route. I'm worth much more dead than alive, so that is the reason I am changing the beneficiary.


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## karole

Are you sure you want your best friend as beneficiary on your life insurance policy and not your children? I thought you were creating a trust for your children and naming the trust as beneficiary?>? Perhaps I misunderstood.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

do you have copies of all of these transcripts/recordings/evidence that you have "backed-up" ? I think your fine, but when your in panic mode/black hole depression/shock it will give you some peace of mind to have these things printed/copied and put into a safe place and giving access to someone trusted in the event something (however extremely remote the possibilty is) that something were to happen to you.

again, I dont want to insight any panic or reinforce any dark thoughts your having about these crazy scenario's (I had them too, to the extreme at times) just trying to put the "monsters under your bed" to rest...


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## HurtinginTN

karole said:


> Are you sure you want your best friend as beneficiary on your life insurance policy and not your children? I thought you were creating a trust for your children and naming the trust as beneficiary?>? Perhaps I misunderstood.


I will be setting up a trust, but that will take some time. I can put it in his name immediately. It is a very trusted friend that has my children's best interest in mind in this situation and always. He is also very good with money and will be able to probably turn all 3 into millionaires if I die anytime soon. I will probably name him as the administrator of the trust when I go that route. 

My children are all minors. If it goes to them directly, it would either be tied up until they turn 18 or go to their guardian, which would likely be my wife. I don't want it to be tied up until they are adults. If I die today, I want that money to be used to raise them. I just don't trust my wife at this point to use it completely in that manner. I believe the OM would have a new car, etc. 



Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> do you have copies of all of these transcripts/recordings/evidence that you have "backed-up" ? I think your fine, but when your in panic mode/black hole depression/shock it will give you some peace of mind to have these things printed/copied and put into a safe place and giving access to someone trusted in the event something (however extremely remote the possibilty is) that something were to happen to you.
> 
> again, I dont want to insight any panic or reinforce any dark thoughts your having about these crazy scenario's (I had them too, to the extreme at times) just trying to put the "monsters under your bed" to rest...


No problem, PIT. I did change the beneficiary. I just faxed it so it should become effective today. What I have wouldn't do anyone else any good, I don't believe. None of it will be admissable in court and no one else cares. If I died, no one would need it. I may show my kids someday much later, but I guess even that isn't a good idea. I could probably just get rid of all of it. I guess I'll just let it sit for now.


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## HurtinginTN

When should I tell her I changed the beneficiary? I suppose if she ever comes home. Maybe now to quash any possible plans they may scheme up while she is there. Any thoughts? It seems to me changing it is pointless without telling her it is changed. However, she will probably think and say I did it out of vindictiveness. Really, I did it so I don't have to think about them planning on my early death.


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## turnera

Tell her the truth. Let her see up close and personal the effect she's having.


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## karole

TN, you need to get the trust set up as soon as possible. Consider if something happened to your friend before your children were given the funds. The funds from your ins. policy would go into your friend's estate and his estate would have no obligation to distribute the funds to your children (unless you friend has a will specifically stating the funds belong to your children). Sorry to sound so negative and I am in no way insinuating your friend is not trustworthy, I'm sure if the need should arise your friend would do the right thing by your children; however, there are just too many possible scenarios that could disrupt good intentions.......


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## HurtinginTN

karole said:


> Consider if something happened to your friend before your children were given the funds. The funds from your ins. policy would go into your friend's estate and his estate would have no obligation to distribute the funds to your children (unless you friend has a will specifically stating the funds belong to your children).


Thank you very much. I hadn't thought of that. I will discuss the will with him. Knowing him, he probably has one already. I'll ask him to add it to his will for the time being until the trust is set up. Thank you for helping me to cover all my bases.


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## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> Tell her the truth. Let her see up close and personal the effect she's having.


I plan to tell her. I just don't know if I should call and leave a message or just wait until she calls to talk to the kids. Perhaps that would be best. 

"I'll go get the kids. By the way, I changed my beneficiary on my life insurance policy because I am concerned you and lover boy may be cooking up plans to insure my early demise so you two can live high on the hog. Here's the kids."


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## WhereAmI

Try something like, "You've been making choices that negatively affect the family. I decided it was best to change the beneficiary on my life insurance policy. Here's the kids." If you mention her affair partner she'll feel like you're trying to win her back through manipulation. That just feeds her ego.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## totallyconfused

Why are you doing all this and not filing for divorce? If you file for divorce, it makes your untimely demise shortly thereafter look very suspicious. Basically, once you file, the world will view her in a different light, permanently. There is a legal record that you want nothing to do with her and don't trust her.


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## karole

Tn, don't give her any explanation. If you want her to know simply tell her that you changed the beneficiary on your life ins. policy and don't tell her who you changed it to. It's none of her business and none of her concern.


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## totallyconfused

Honestly, I'm not sure I'd tell her anything other than, "I've filed for divorce and I'm taking steps to protect myself."

It sounds like you could tell her:

I'm selling your stuff.
I don't trust you, so I'm setting up trusts for kids for life insurance.

But to put her likely spin on it, she'll probably hear that as vindictive (selling stuff) and paranoid (she's after me).

I would keep it simple, as outlined above.

I've filed for divorce. (I'm no longer willing to be married to you.)
I'm taking steps to protect myself. (No further explanation, even if she asks. Could be interpreted in a variety of ways, depending on where her mind is already at. Could be interpreted as my direct depoist is not longer available to you to I'm protecting my life insurance if she really does have evil thoughts.)


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## HurtinginTN

totallyconfused said:


> Why are you doing all this and not filing for divorce? If you file for divorce, it makes your untimely demise shortly thereafter look very suspicious.


I'd rather prevent the untimely demise than make everyone suspect her if it happens.  Take away any possible incentive. Besides, changing a beneficiary is immediate. Divorce is lengthy. Obviously, that will be following, but I want to squash that thought in my head now.



karole said:


> Tn, don't give her any explanation. If you want her to know simply tell her that you changed the beneficiary on your life ins. policy and don't tell her who you changed it to. It's none of her business and none of her concern.


Nice point. I do want her to know. IF she didn't know and that did cross their minds, they may act on it. They would be sorely disappointed when the check went elsewhere (besides the fact that if haunting is possible, I'd make the rest of their lives pure hell), but I'd just rather stay on this side of the grass as long as I can.


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## 8yearscheating

Leave that **** hang until she's back and/or you see what happens. Don't add to the pile of things she will try use against you in divorce if it goes that way and don't rile her. It only makes things worse and her less compliant to just sign off on a negotiated settlement with YOUR attorney - the cheapest way. Enough people know your split as of now and enough people know to voice your concerns that they might try to off you that would step forward. I know it's hard, but in this case slow is smooth and smooth is quick,


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## purrhotstuff

Are you filing for divorce? Have you at least filed for separation?
If not, when?

Tennessee Divorce Laws - Tennessee State Divorce Laws


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## 8yearscheating

I would suggest you go to website called beyondaffairs.com Click on the seminars tab and then the teleseminars tab and browse the list and listen to as many as you can. Lot's of really good healing information there and also suggestions for working with your WS. As can be expected, the push their services a lot but there is a a lot great info there. I listen to them in my car using my iphone connected to the car. There are also BAN network meetings shown on the home page for a lot of cities that are free and the teleseminars are free to attend if you register. Please check them out and let us know what think.


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## HurtinginTN

purrhotstuff said:


> Are you filing for divorce? Have you at least filed for separation?
> If not, when?


I've not filed anything yet. I am working to get everything in order for the kids to get into school. It starts in 3 weeks and I have a lot of work to do. She is gone and won't be coming back anytime soon. If and when she comes back, I will move more on that. Besides, I don't have the cash at this point. I am working on selling all the junk to fund several things, including an attorney.


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## HurtinginTN

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> get a chance to read any of the book I recommended?


Wow, you weren't kidding on an emotional read. I can't do it at this point home alone with the kids. I tried last night while they were doing a test. I printed off a practice standardized test for their grades that TN uses. I want to see where they may be behind and get them caught up as quickly as possible. My BIL is also helping in this and has found a tutor.

Anyway, while they were taking the test, I tried to read some. I started with Chapter 11 on the part "When Dad moves away." I couldn't read past the first page without breaking down. I'm sure that is exactly what my kids are thinking as well. I brought it to work today. I'll try to get through some of it here. I can't do it with them around. I have to be strong for them, at least in front of them.


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## turnera

Hurting, you may also want to visit your doctor and ask about a possible short-term dose of antidepressants. For your kids' sakes. I took it for 3 months after my mom died last year, because I couldn't stop breaking down, and that was 3 or 4 months after she died. The ADs helped stabilize my mood until I could deal with it.


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## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> Hurting, you may also want to visit your doctor and ask about a possible short-term dose of antidepressants. For your kids' sakes. I took it for 3 months after my mom died last year, because I couldn't stop breaking down, and that was 3 or 4 months after she died. The ADs helped stabilize my mood until I could deal with it.


I'm sorry for your loss. I did when I first found out for a month. I'm doing better one day at a time. I'm good when I'm with my kids. I might need a whole bottle per chapter on this book, though, lol. It puts things in the child's perspective. Thank you for the suggestion. I may do that if I don't continue to get better. I didn't break down yesterday except for reading that book. 

Her sisters, brother, and father have been extremely helpful. The kids are doing well. They have kept them busy during the day and I have kept them busy at night. I told them last night I am going to register them for school. They are all very excited. My oldest asked me if I had talked to her mom about it. I said, "She isn't here and isn't talking to me so I can't discuss this with her. I did discuss it with her before she left." I did. She adamantly opposed it. I adamantly said she can't home school as a single mom. 

They tried to call her again last night a few times. Now her voice mail box is full so they can't even leave her a message. My middle one cried for her a few minutes at bedtime, but only very shortly and not nearly as bad as before. She is angry because her mother said she would call her last night and didn't. 

I suppose I will need to explain things to them at some point. For now, I think I'll give her another week or so to tell them. I'll cross that bridge when it's time. I don't believe it is right now.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

HurtinginTN said:


> Wow, you weren't kidding on an emotional read.
> 
> I started with Chapter 11 on the part "When Dad moves away." I couldn't read past the first page without breaking down. I'm sure that is exactly what my kids are thinking as well.


Yeah, it's gut wrenching stuff. Reading the truth through your childrens eyes is jarring to say the least. Not wanting to face it doesn't change it though. This is what is happening to them (and us). I had to take the book in bite size nuggets the first few times I read it, and still have to "galvanize" myself a bit before I read it.

You and I have shown strong tendencies to be "conflict avoiders" at times during this process. I identified it and battle it tooth and nail. That battle is what has gotten me through the woods to some degree... I'm confident that my son is the beneficiary of my fight. 

It's very hard at times, sometimes I have to talk to myself about it and I pray at times "Please don't let me "shut down"... or I just say to myself in the morning "Pit, don't shut down.. PRESS Pit, Press". Might sound silly, but it's the truth. I see alot of light now, and my legs are firmly under me. 

Your going to be Ok TN, press my friend, press.


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## lordmayhem

It's so sad to see that she wants no contact with you or the kids, but it's not unexpected since she is so deep in the fog with her OM. Just keep on what you're doing and forging ahead as if she's never coming back. Continue staying strong for your kids, that's the best you can do right now.


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## 8yearscheating

Any word from BIL she was going to stay with?


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## turnera

8yearscheating said:


> Any word from BIL she was going to stay with?


 :lol:


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## elph

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> Yeah, it's gut wrenching stuff. Reading the truth through your childrens eyes is jarring to say the least. Not wanting to face it doesn't change it though. This is what is happening to them (and us). I had to take the book in bite size nuggets the first few times I read it, and still have to "galvanize" myself a bit before I read it.
> 
> You and I have shown strong tendencies to be "conflict avoiders" at times during this process. I identified it and battle it tooth and nail. That battle is what has gotten me through the woods to some degree... I'm confident that my son is the beneficiary of my fight.
> 
> It's very hard at times, sometimes I have to talk to myself about it and I pray at times "Please don't let me "shut down"... or I just say to myself in the morning "Pit, don't shut down.. PRESS Pit, Press". Might sound silly, but it's the truth. I see alot of light now, and my legs are firmly under me.
> 
> Your going to be Ok TN, press my friend, press.


i keep looking for the title of the book, what are you reccomending?


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## turnera

My dad leaving was the single most important thing that ever happened in my life - in a BAD way. 

It completely changed, forever, who I am. Again, in a BAD way.

If I had had a therapist to visit, a mother who didn't turn into a workaholic to hide from the truth, a sibling to share with who wasn't worse off than me...maybe I would have turned out ok.

But being abandoned by a parent is single-handedly the worst thing short of death that I think can happen to a child. And it doesn't just end in childhood - it SHAPES the adult they will become.

Get all the help you can find.

You being so devoted is going to help, but it won't remove the pain and self-hatred they are experiencing.


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## HurtinginTN

elph said:


> i keep looking for the title of the book, what are you reccomending?


"Helping Your Kids Cope with Divorce the Sandcastles Way" by M. Gary Neuman. Pit had recommended it a while back to someone else in a similar situation. I bought it then, but have had it in the closet until now.


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## HurtinginTN

8yearscheating said:


> Any word from BIL she was going to stay with?


I've talked to him almost daily. He is the new beneficiary on my life insurance policy. He is trying to get her to come stay with him. She may or may not. 

Today is my birthday. She actually called and I answered. I should have ignored it. She started off by saying "Happy Birthday" and she asked about the kids. I told her we were doing OK. It deteriorated rather quickly and she hung up after 15 minutes. She was upset that her sister was doing the laundry and cleaning the house because my wife is very picky on the laundry. I told her that she was gone and I didn't even know IF she was coming back, much less when. We have to get on with our lives accordingly. She went off on how she wouldn't abandon her children, she's only been gone a week, she's called almost every day, etc. She was pissed at me because I would think she would abandon her children. I said that after a week of her not talking and telling her daughter it will be "at least another week," etc., there was no other conclusion except that she wasn't coming home and I have to move on. I also told her that I had changed the beneficiary on the life insurance. She asked who it was, but I didn't tell her. It wasn't a very pleasant conversation at all. I wish I had just either ignored the call or said Thank You when she said Happy Birthday. I was doing OK today until I talked to her. UGH!!!!

She will probably be coming home, the way she got so mad at me thinking she would abandon her children. I'm positive she won't even make a fake at wanting to reconcile. She will either want to take the kids to Colorado or move him in, or something. Whatever her plan, it looks like it will get much uglier before long. I was kind of coming to the point I just wanted her to stay there and preparing for that. Now, I don't know what to prepare for.


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## joe kidd

HurtinginTN said:


> Now, I don't know what to prepare for.


Unfortunately man, the worst. She knows every button to push, every weakness to take advantage of. It will continue to be about her. Stay strong man. I wish you the best.


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## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> ...maybe I would have turned out ok.



I think you have turned out better than average, or you wouldn't be helping poor fools like me.:smthumbup:


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## turnera

Thanks. *blushing*

HAPPY BIRTHDAY!


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## 8yearscheating

Happy Birthday Hurting! You will make it. Your strong and determined. Quit worrying about her. She's gonna do what she's gonna do. 

Again Tunera - you have not ceased to amaze me lately. A softer side I never knew you had. I think I'm in love!!!! JK!


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## purrhotstuff

HurtinginTN that is why I asked you when you and if you were filing for separation, at least do that. You cannot base your reactions on her inaction, because it's all assumptions on your part.

I watched my nieces and nephews go to their verbally abusive mother, rather than my brother. He assumed that because his wife abandoned them, and was gone for a month, he would get custody. He failed to keep a journal of all she did to those kids, and all she said to them. He didn't file for separation because he was consumed by his feelings. He waited. Now she has primary custody. It's awful. He's more of a mess now than he ever was, because of his inaction. The pain of not having full custody of his children far outweighs the pain he experienced when his wife left.

I have now taken the time to read this entire thread, and for a very long time you were flip flopping on how you felt. I am more afraid that you have the resources to file for separation, but you're holding on to a shred of hope.
I hope that is not the case, because the only consistent thing your wife has done has been making erratic decisions.

I hope after your conversation with her, you see that she might return home and take the kids away from you. She will probably want them around the other man. Write everything down. Keep a file. Document, document, document. You seem like a good man, just a bid blinded by his own feelings, but that's normal. Just remember the light at the end of the tunnel, is to live a normal healthy life with your children. They will be better in your hands than in your wife's. Start taking steps to making sure that will happen. No surprises, start everything now. 

Tennessee Divorce FAQ

3 Step Agreement - Tennessee Separation Agreement Service

How to File for a Marriage Separation in Tennessee | eHow.com

Tennessee Marriage Separation Laws | Life Portal

Happy birthday by the way.


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## turnera

I agree. You can BET she expects to get, if not full custody, at least 50% with YOU paying for everything. Fight like hell! And if you haven't already, get a spiral binder and write out your ENTIRE timeline of what she's been doing, day by day. List it ALL. Spiral so the judge can see that you have not altered events. It may come in handy if she comes back with POSOM in tow, expecting to kick you out and move him in with her and the kids.


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## lordmayhem

Birthday Greetings! I won't happy, because it isnt the happy occasion it should be now. Follow the advice given, now that you've spoken to the WW, find a way to lawyer up, and like everyone has said, document, document, document.


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## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> It may come in handy if she comes back with POSOM in tow, expecting to kick you out and move him in with her and the kids.



Thanks, Turnera. Just what I needed today, another possible scenario running around in my crowded brain. lol

Yes, I have already considered she may do that. It is half her house, so I can't kick her out without a divorce decree. I don't think she can bring someone in without my consent, either. I have been meaning to look into that just in case.


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## karole

But she abandoned the house.....you and the children. Change the locks. She has the van and you have the house and kids. She chose what she wanted. Come on TN, please call an attorney tomorrow and make an appointment. You need to get this started before she gets back and runs to an attorney and has everyone believing she was on vacation and just needed some time away.


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## Squiffy

> Enroll the kids in school. I have delayed on this and should have already done it. I am researching the tests they use to determine what grade previously home-schooled children should be in. I am a little concerned about that. What if they don't do well on the test and they are placed in lower grades than age appropriate?


Your kids will be fine. I home schooled mine (oldest for six years) and was also worried about putting them in school, but when they got there they settled in really well - the oldest one was actually ahead of his peers, the youngest one was behind in reading and writing but she caught up so quickly it was just not an issue.

Just you being there for them, being loving and supportive is what really counts, the rest will take care of itself.


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## lordmayhem

HiT, I just want to caution you: Remember the 180! I know you're hurting. I know you're angry. But keep any talk between you and your WW very brief and ONLY about the children, and briefly at that. Do not engage or argue with her. By arguing with her *you are tipping your hand!* You already mentioned the abandonment issue, now she may come rushing back. You should have said Thank You and ended the conversation. Its to your advantage that she stay there as long as possible so you can use the abandonment issue to get primary custody. And now you have her thinking about the abandonment issue and no doubt she is talking to OM about it too. 

Stick to the 180 HiT, talk briefly, and reveal nothing to her about any of your plans.


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## HurtinginTN

Squiffy said:


> Your kids will be fine. I home schooled mine (oldest for six years) and was also worried about putting them in school, but when they got there they settled in really well - the oldest one was actually ahead of his peers, the youngest one was behind in reading and writing but she caught up so quickly it was just not an issue.



Thank you very much for sharing that. I printed off a test TN gives each spring for the appropriate grade levels they would have just finished. They did the first of four sections last night. My oldest didn't do as well as she hoped. She got 65% correct. She was grading her own at first, but got very upset when she had missed a few in a row. She was crying and she rarely cries. I rocked her for a good while and explained to her that her lower score was not a reflection on her. It was a reflection on me. I am the father and should have made sure she was getting exposed to everything she needed. Most of the questions on there that she missed, if not all, we had never even covered. I explained to her that the kids in school that took that test went over and over those questions before the test. Even with that, many did worse than she did never being exposed to some of it. I even pointed out there is a TV show titled, "Are you smarter than a 5th Grader?". That shows there are many adults that don't know the same questions she missed. I assured her that I will work with her every night on her homework and help her with anything she is struggling with. After a while, she felt much better.


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## HurtinginTN

lordmayhem said:


> You already mentioned the abandonment issue, now she may come rushing back. You should have said Thank You and ended the conversation. Its to your advantage that she stay there as long as possible so you can use the abandonment issue to get primary custody. And now you have her thinking about the abandonment issue and no doubt she is talking to OM about it too.



I know. I've been kicking myself all afternoon. I didn't mention the word "abandon". She did, several times. I just told her we didn't know if she was ever coming back as the reason the laundry, etc. needed to be done. I know. I wish for several reasons I had just said, "Thank you" and been done with the conversation. I still doubt she will come running back.


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## HurtinginTN

karole said:


> You need to get this started before she gets back and runs to an attorney and has everyone believing she was on vacation and just needed some time away.


Everyone knows fully where she is and why. What is she going to pay for an attorney with? POS isn't going to fork over a stack of cash. She can't run to one any better than I can at this point.


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## purrhotstuff

I'm sorry to say HurtinginTN, that your refusal to respond to any posts that involve you obtaining an attorney, speak to what you are intent on doing. Sit andwait. Now please know that's fine and dandy, but seeing this from a personal standpoint with my own brother, you are doing more harm than good by procrastinating.
A trend in most of your posts was to go along with what everyone else said, but not acting upon it.
Maybe hindsight is 20/20, so perhaps you should go back and read what everyone was telling you all along.
You say that you don't have money to file for separation but I can't imagine that it would have been very cheap to rent a car for a week or two and let your wife leave with your car. You had money right there that you chose to let slip away.
I am afraid that you are just hanging out by a thread to this marriage and would even be willing to take her back when and if she returns. That is fine but in the mean time what is the harm in protecting yourself and your family?
As much as her family loves you, she is their daughter or sister. I would imagine in most cases, the family will go along with their blood, no matter how good of a son in law they have.
You are operating on assumptions. Please do not. The conversations you are having on here, your wife is having with the other man. 
As someone else said, do not tip your hand.

I say all of the above with respect and empathy for your situation. I saw my brother clouded with feelings and emotions and assumptions, and now he wishes he hadn't operated in that way.

You have made so many concessions for her already, it is of utmost importance that now you begin the process of protecting yourself and your children. People are crafty, and your wife is a woman that you don't even know anymore. Please operate as such.

Do not assume. Do not tip your hand. Do not make excuses. Please.


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## Powerbane

HurtinginTN said:


> Everyone knows fully where she is and why. What is she going to pay for an attorney with? POS isn't going to fork over a stack of cash. She can't run to one any better than I can at this point.


Not to mention she has no cash to come home on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien

A review of the past posts seem to indicate that there is one aspect of talking to the kids that you might want to consider from the point of view of one who has been there.

When I was three, my older brother was murdered. My mother was unable to cope, but my father took every dime we had and left, running with and later marrying his secret girlfriend. I lived under the consequences that your kids will ultimately face, and man, I am so sorry for it. You have a nobility that is simply rarely found these days.

Believe it or not, when I was five, my mother decided that she needed to just explain what happened. We simply couldn't fathom that he could do this, and were visiting him in a surreal world that was really unhealthy for us, where the woman was just 'a friend'. When my father found out that we knew, he panicked, and was scared to visit us for a few years. But he was feeding us lies that were tearing our mother down. I'd suggest that he was a bit like your wife, and maybe a little more aware of her image than her actual responsibilities.

I'm not suggesting that you tell them. What you are going through for them is incredible. But you have to realize that this could be the big red shiny button that makes her think about what she is doing, even if it is nothing more than divorcing amicably and asking herself if she really wants her kids to know that she ran away, leaving them for a guy she met in a cyber reality. For many of us, this would have been enough to keep us from running off anyway, if we were crazy enough to consider it.

She needs to know that you will tell them what is appropriate, when it is appropriate, and what YOU think is appropriate. She doesn't get a vote in what you tell them, other than that it will be the truth. And at some point, they deserve to know the whole sordid story.

The risk that you must face is that her retelling of the story will be based upon a foundation of a person who is really good at deceiving. So, you have to balance their peace of mind with the risk you perceive in them having a completely open, trusting relationship with their mother. One of the first tactics of a cheater is to put you both on level ground, at least from my experience. The only way to do this is to bring you down while she lifts herself up through retelling.


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## MrQuatto

purrhotstuff said:


> I'm sorry to say HurtinginTN, that your refusal to respond to any posts that involve you obtaining an attorney, speak to what you are intent on doing. Nothing. Now please know that's fine and dandy, but seeing this from a personal standpoint with my own brother, you are doing more harm than good by procrastinating.
> A trend in most of your posts was to go along with what everyone else said, but not acting upon it.
> Maybe hindsight is 20/20, so perhaps you should go back and read what everyone was telling you all along.
> You say that you don't have money to file for separation but I can't imagine that it would have been very cheap to rent a car for a week or two and let your wife leave with your car. You had money right there that you chose to let slip away.
> I am afraid that you are just hanging out by a thread to this marriage and would even be willing to take her back when and if she returns. That is fine but in the mean time what is the harm in protecting yourself and your family?
> As much as her family loves you, she is their daughter or sister. I would imagine in most cases, the family will go along with their blood, no matter how good of a son in law they have.
> You are operating on assumptions. Please do not. The conversations you are having on here, your wife is having with the other man.
> As someone else said, do not tip your hand.
> 
> I say all of the above with respect and empathy for your situation. I saw my brother clouded with feelings and emotions and assumptions, and now he wishes he hadn't operated in that way.
> 
> You have made so many concessions for her already, it is of utmost importance that now you begin the process of protecting yourself and your children. People are crafty, and your wife is a woman that you don't even know anymore. Please operate as such.
> 
> Do not assume. Do not tip your hand. Do not make excuses. Please.


Tn, Please listen to this. I can't caution you enough on the danger of waiting. Your wife as you knew her is gone. She is now the enemy. She will pull every dirty trick in the book to get what she thinks she is entitled to. She will paint you in every horrible, unflattering light to everyone, family, children and friends to make YOU out to be the bad guy. 

The longer you muck around before taking an initiative to protect you and your children, the greater the chance you will lose out more than you already have. there are countless stories on here of folks who made the same mistake and paid with everything they had AND lost their children to the cheater. 

Unfortunately right now, our culture is naturally biased toward the mothers. Unless you have taken ALL possible steps to protect yourself, you will lose.

Q~


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## lordmayhem

Agreed. Blood is ultimately thicker than water no matter what. I had a great relationship with my ex-in laws. They were good to me, helpful to me, sympathetic to me when I first had suspicions that she was cheating. Then came the separation and then the divorce and it got UGLY.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

my instinct here was to say your all wasting your breath... 

but Im holding out hope (praying) your finally listening TN.

you (and your kids) are about to be rundown by a mack truck being driven by an affair drunk addict with her leaching dirtbag boyfriend in her ear telling her to step on it...

Get the f*ck out of the road my friend.

Your dealing with people that are not right in the head.


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## Powerbane

You're funny Pit - but you're also right on target. 

I'm hoping our friend finally heeds those that have already been down this sorry excuse for a road. 

Hurt - this ain't no country dirt road we grew up driving on - this is the worst minefield with snipers and Jabba the Hutt and Darth Vader laying for your ass. 

You know I praying for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

MrQuatto said:


> there are countless stories on here of folks who made the same mistake and paid with everything they had AND lost their children to the cheater.


And, her family is going to come up with the money for her lawyer.

That's what families do.

I've seen it dozens of times, even though that person is the cheater. Their families STILL pool their money together and give their precious baby the divorce and the custody. Because they just want her to be happy.


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## lordmayhem

:iagree:

Blood is thicker than water in almost all cases, no matter the good relationship with the in-laws. They may hate what she's doing, they may even be disgusted with her, but when push comes to shove, they will support her.


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## karole

I guarantee you one of her family members put the "abandonment" issue in her head by telling her she needs to get home because TN could claim abandonment. Apparently, that doesn't bother her because she knows you would never do that to her. Can you see that TN? PLEASE CALL AN ATTORNEY. A lot of attorneys allow you to make payments. Some don't charge a consultation fee. You say you can't afford one but I don't see any way you can afford not to. You need a mean attorney whose area of practice is family law. Call one now - PLEASEEEEEE!


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## MrQuatto

karole said:


> I guarantee you one of her family members put the "abandonment" issue in her head by telling her she needs to get home because TN could claim abandonment. Apparently, that doesn't bother her because she knows you would never do that to her. Can you see that TN? PLEASE CALL AN ATTORNEY. A lot of attorneys allow you to make payments. Some don't charge a consultation fee. You say you can't afford one but I don't see any way you can afford not to. You need a mean attorney whose area of practice is family law. Call one now - PLEASEEEEEE!


This is so true. Everyone says they cant afford to get into this but mark my words, you WILL pay. You can pay now and be in control or you can pay later as directed by the court but in the end you will pay. All you can do is to make the decision on how the pay will be doled out, your terms or hers. 

That is the absolute bottom line Tn. As unfortunate as it is, it is the cold, hard truth.

Q~


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## lordmayhem

Since this part is related to marksaysay's thread, HiT needs to petition the court to get a temporary child custody order designating him as primary custodian until the final divorce decree. For that needs a lawyer.


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## HurtinginTN

lordmayhem said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Blood is thicker than water in almost all cases, no matter the good relationship with the in-laws. They may hate what she's doing, they may even be disgusted with her, but when push comes to shove, they will support her.


I agree that blood is thicker than water. All of the in-laws have made it pretty clear. Thier dedication and devotion is to our three kids and thier best interests. They are blood. They have also expressed in no uncertain terms that the best interest of the children is that they are with me.

Now, I have used our rocking chair more in the last week than I have in years. I have rocked all 3 of our children this week as they were crying. They do need their mother in their lives. My girls will be going through changes soon that I am unqualified to help with. I know I can learn and will learn. But she has the same parts and experience. She is more qualified in that area. 

Also, they are half her and half me. They love her very much. I have no doubt that she also loves them very much. Her judgement is very clouded at this point in time, but I know she loves them. I still maintain that the best thing for my children is that we stay together and create a wonderful marriage. I am more than willing to sacrifice my life for their well-being. There is still that extremely slim chance the fog will lift when she sees the reality of OM. I know she has been there a week, so that seems to be about the same odds that I will win the Powerball that I rarely buy a ticket for. Yes, I still love her and I love my children. IF she came home remorseful and dedicated to working on the marriage, I would work on it. 

However, I do see the danger of waiting. I know I would be much happier moving on. Not seeing my kids every day will be absolutely horrible. That makes me want to seek full custody. But I also know they need their mother. I want what is best for my children. There are so many things in my head, it is crazy.

On the school thing, I gave another test last night. They are further behind in Math than they were in Reading /Language Skills. I have failed them in many ways. I should have made sure they were getting everything they needed. Now, I need to do all I possibly can to get them caught up. That includes helping them every night with their homework and such when school starts in 3 weeks. That difficult transition for them is weighing more heavily on my mind than where my wife is at the moment. Part of me says that waiting until I get the kids settled in school before starting divorce proceedings will be best for them. Part of me says I need to file now and somehow be Superman to help them through the double transition of going from homeschool to public school and their parents going through a divorce. It is not a good place to be in.


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## SadSamIAm

You can not take her back if she wants to come home and is remorseful. You can not make it that easy for her. The rest of your life will be spent with her looking for other men and leaving for weeks at a time to be with these other men.

You have to at the very least separate for a number of months. She needs to know that you won't tolerate this disrespect. She needs to see what she is losing and she needs to earn her way back into your life.

Don't let her know that you would take her back. Don't let her know that you love her that much. Be strong and maybe after six months or so, you can have your marriage the way you want it (with a dedicated loving wife). If you let her in right away, you will have a lifetime of problems with her.

Your issue with divorce and public school are separate issues. You spending time with your children, working on Math or whatever, will help you and your children get used to the divorce/separation. They will feel secure knowing you are there for them and that the future is still going to happen with or without their mother there.


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## lordmayhem

HurtinginTN said:


> On the school thing, I gave another test last night. They are further behind in Math than they were in Reading /Language Skills. I have failed them in many ways. I should have made sure they were getting everything they needed. Now, I need to do all I possibly can to get them caught up.


The ONLY thing you are guilty of is giving in to your WWs every demand, that is the only area where you failed. She home schooled the kids, that was HER responsibility. Instead, she spent most of her time online with OM and neglected their education, not to mention the house, the marriage, and you. Didn't you say you had to work, cook, clean, wash the dishes, AND freaking groom the pets every night? And all this in addition to the mile long honey-do lists? You had to reuse socks and stuff all the time. Come on, give yourself a break! Stop taking the blame for all her actions and inactions.


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## golfergirl

lordmayhem said:


> The ONLY thing you are guilty of is giving in to your WWs every demand, that is the only area where you failed. She home schooled the kids, that was HER responsibility. Instead, she spent most of her time online with OM and neglected their education, not to mention the house, the marriage, and you. Didn't you say you had to work, cook, clean, wash the dishes, AND freaking groom the pets every night? And all this in addition to the mile long honey-do lists? You had to reuse socks and stuff all the time. Come on, give yourself a break! Stop taking the blame for all her actions and inactions.


^
I agree. You're kids were failed by her! You're their hero! Don't stress or pressure the school thing too much. Make it fun. They're smart - 'play' a little each night and the schools will help them cathch up too.^
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

SadSamIAm said:


> You have to at the very least separate for a number of months. She needs to know that you won't tolerate this disrespect. She needs to see what she is losing and she needs to earn her way back into your life.


I am considering that as an option. I wouldn't just take her back anyway. There would have to be tremendous changes in many areas. I would like to live in the same home for consistency for the children during their transition to school. However, I don't think that will really work.


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## KathyGriffinFan

Pit-of-my-stomach said:


> *my instinct here was to say your all wasting your breath... *
> 
> but Im holding out hope (praying) your finally listening TN.
> 
> you (and your kids) are about to be rundown by a mack truck being driven by an affair drunk addict with her leaching dirtbag boyfriend in her ear telling her to step on it...
> 
> Get the f*ck out of the road my friend.
> 
> Your dealing with people that are not right in the head.


Sadly PIT, I'm thinking you're right. I wish that wasn't the case.


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## turnera

HurtinginTN said:


> I am considering that as an option. I wouldn't just take her back anyway. There would have to be tremendous changes in many areas. I would like to live in the same home for consistency for the children during their transition to school. However, I don't think that will really work.


 No, it won't.

Your relationship would have to undergo a MASSIVE SHIFT in the way she views you, her role, her responsibilities, and her importance. That will not happen if you let her move back in. For your children's sakes, let her experience the shyte life she has so desired so she can realize what she has thrown away. Only then will she respect you, something that has been SORELY lacking in your marriage.

Fight like hell to keep the kids with you for now. They will WANT to be with her because they KNOW that YOU love them; right now their biggest desire is to hear and feel their mom wants and loves them; don't get your feelings hurt when they ignore you, for her. That just means they love you.

Filing for separation or divorce is ONLY a means to protect your kids' rights and yours. You can always cancel it later if she turns 180, and you can even remarry if you want to. But NOT doing so will only reinforce her insane belief that she's the only important person here.

And your kids don't need to be told what legal steps you're taking. All they need right now is consistency and unwavering support and love. And maybe a tutor. Can you afford one? wyzant.com is a great place to find a local tutor, and very reasonable. The last thing your kids need right now is to be thrust into public school feeling inadequate on top of knowing their mom abandoned them. Borrow from family if you have to, but get them a tutor.


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## KathyGriffinFan

HurtinginTN said:


> I agree that blood is thicker than water.  All of the in-laws have made it pretty clear. Thier dedication and devotion is to our three kids and thier best interests. They are blood. *They have also expressed in no uncertain terms that the best interest of the children is that they are with me*.There is a strong possibility that when the sh-t hits the fan and she returns home, and the divorce process begins, they can and will feel differently and side with her.
> 
> They do need their mother in their lives. Of course they do, if memory serves, not one person on here said she shouldn't be apart of their lives. What is concerning is the delay on your part to begin getting your ducks in a row. You must be in control of this divorce. Otherwise you leave yourself open to scenarios that don't look good for you. You've already paid for being a doormat during your marriage with her- please don't continue that behavior and have to continue to pay for it even after your marriage and probable divorce.
> 
> Also, they are half her and half me. They love her very much. I have no doubt that she also loves them very much. Her judgement is very clouded at this point in time, but I know she loves them. I still maintain that the best thing for my children is that we stay together and create a wonderful marriage. I am more than willing to sacrifice my life for their well-being. She isn't prepared to sacrifice her life for your children and seemingly hasn't for many, many months. To change your marriage would require you to make major changes too. You give in way too easily and as your obviously know, this has hurt. Your penchant for allowing her to do whatever she wants, combined with her selfish attitude, has made for a disastrous situation. There is still that extremely slim chance the fog will lift when she sees the reality of OM.How long are you willing to wait and keep your life and kids lives in limbo? I know she has been there a week, so that seems to be about the same odds that I will win the Powerball that I rarely buy a ticket for. Yes, I still love her and I love my children. IF she came home remorseful and dedicated to working on the marriage, I would work on it. The key word in that sentence is "I". If we go by the history of a few months since you first started this thread, she's had no intention of working on it. She's schemed and manipulated her way just to get to OM.
> 
> However, I do see the danger of waiting. I know I would be much happier moving on. Not seeing my kids every day will be absolutely horrible. That makes me want to seek full custody. But I also know they need their mother. I want what is best for my children. There are so many things in my head, it is crazy.You must be in control of this divorce. That's why you need to act quickly.
> 
> On the school thing, I gave another test last night. They are further behind in Math than they were in Reading /Language Skills. I have failed them in many ways. I should have made sure they were getting everything they needed. Now, I need to do all I possibly can to get them caught up. That includes helping them every night with their homework and such when school starts in 3 weeks. That difficult transition for them is weighing more heavily on my mind than where my wife is at the moment. Part of me says that waiting until I get the kids settled in school before starting divorce proceedings will be best for them. Part of me says I need to file now and somehow be Superman to help them through the double transition of going from homeschool to public school and their parents going through a divorce. It is not a good place to be in.So, not only has she failed to be a wife to you in every regard, but she's also partly failed your children in educating them. I don't know what kind of example she's setting for your children, but it sure doesn't seem good.


*It comes down to what you believe - is it better for children to be happy in a single parent home, or unhappy and miserable in a two parent home?*

Every time she pushes a boundary, you bend to her needs- just so you can keep that glimmer of light and the door to reconciliation slightly cracked. Eventually, you're going to break.

I went back into your threads to see how long you've been dealing with this. From what you have said, OM has been in your w's life since July 2010 and you disovered this in early February. Must not be easy, but when you continue to bend for her, it must be a million times tougher.

Here is what you wrote in March of this year:



> My wife has been having an EA for 9 months. I found out about a month and a half ago. She calls him every night and chats with him. This weekend, she told me she wants to go meet him. She wants to see if it is a fantasy, as I say, or if it's more. To me, her even suggesting driving 18 hours one way to meet the joker is a* deal breaker*.


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## KathyGriffinFan

turnera said:


> No, it won't.
> 
> *Your relationship would have to undergo a MASSIVE SHIFT* in the way she views you, her role, her responsibilities, and her importance. That will not happen if you let her move back in. For your children's sakes, let her experience the shyte life she has so desired so she can realize what she has thrown away. Only then will she respect you, something that has been* SORELY lacking* in your marriage.
> 
> Fight like hell to keep the kids with you for now. They will WANT to be with her because they KNOW that YOU love them; right now their biggest desire is to hear and feel their mom wants and loves them; don't get your feelings hurt when they ignore you, for her. That just means they love you.
> 
> *Filing for separation or divorce is ONLY a means to protect your kids' rights and yours*. You can always cancel it later if she turns 180, and you can even remarry if you want to.* But NOT doing so will only reinforce her insane belief that she's the only important person here.
> *
> And your kids don't need to be told what legal steps you're taking. *All they need right now is consistency and unwavering support and love.* And maybe a tutor. Can you afford one? wyzant.com is a great place to find a local tutor, and very reasonable. *The last thing your kids need right now is to be thrust into public school feeling inadequate on top of knowing their mom abandoned them.* Borrow from family if you have to, but get them a tutor.


:iagree:


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## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> And maybe a tutor. Can you afford one? *The last thing your kids need right now is to be thrust into public school feeling inadequate on top of knowing their mom abandoned them.*


That is actually bothering me much more right now than the situation with my marriage. That transition isn't going to be fun. I hate to throw divorce on them at the same exact time. It may be too much for them. I know I have been a doormat, etc. But the impact on them of starting school and a divorce at the same time bothers me. I can't do anything about the start date of the school. I can control the timing of the divorce. 

My BIL mentioned a friend of the family for the tutor. I left him a voice mail this morning asking for her information. I told him about the math test last night and that I want to start immediately, if possible. I haven't heard back from him. I don't think he has spoken directly to her, but my MIL has. They are good friends and she will likely do it for free. She is a school teacher.

I talked to my cousin, the divorce attorney. She will draw up the papers. One of our aunts died this morning, so we will likely be seeing each other in the next few days for the funeral. That isn't the proper place or time to discuss it, but maybe we can meet before or after.


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## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> Fight like hell to keep the kids with you for now. They will WANT to be with her because they KNOW that YOU love them; right now their biggest desire is to hear and feel their mom wants and loves them; don't get your feelings hurt when they ignore you, for her. That just means they love you.


Turnera, thank you for pointing this out. I'm sure that will be true for a while whenever she decides to come home. They miss her like crazy and they know fully that I love them. They are doubting her love for them even though I assure them every night. I am sure they will want to be with her for the reason you stated.


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## karole

I'm sorry for your loss TN, truly sorry.

Please don't think that anyone here is insinuating that you keep your children from their mother. I would never do that and I don't believe anyone else here would either. I know that you are trying to do what is best for your children, we are trying to get you to see what is best for you AND your children. I think I am correct when I say that what we are trying to get across is that you should have primary custody of the kids and her have visitation. If she doesn't get her act together the visitation should be supervised until such time as she proves herself competent enough to care for them as they should be. If I were in your situation, I'd be worried that she'd come back and then take off with the kids. I hope that would not be the case, but in situations like this when people are not thinking logically or rationally, you never know. What you do is ultimately your decision, just try not to think based on your emotions. I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers TN. 

I'm glad you are talking with an attorney. I hope he is an agressive one. Take care.


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## COGypsy

HiT--I drop in on your thread from time to time, but the last few posts really made me want to comment. Mainly because my sister and I were raised primarily by our father after our mother moved out. They divorced when I was 12 and my sister was 9. There wasn't all the drama of an affair, just that my mom "wasn't happy" or had to find herself or whatever. They had joint legal custody, but my father had primary physical custody. Given my experiences, I just wanted to throw in my two cents.



> They do need their mother in their lives. My girls will be going through changes soon that I am unqualified to help with. I know I can learn and will learn. But she has the same parts and experience. She is more qualified in that area.


I agree that mothers are needed. However, there are lots of books, cousins and aunts that frankly, I went to first about a lot of that "changes" stuff anyway. They were naturally easier than parents to talk to, you know? In all honesty, I wish my mother had been around when I thought that I needed to match my eyeliner and eyeshadow to my outfit. That was knowledge I could have used a little sooner, although in my defense, it WAS the 80's. But they do have makeup counters for that...



> I still maintain that the best thing for my children is that we stay together and create a wonderful marriage. I am more than willing to sacrifice my life for their well-being.





> That makes me want to seek full custody. But I also know they need their mother. I want what is best for my children.


Sure, we think lots of things are "best" for children. But I can absolutely say that it was much better for me to see my father stand up and say that there was no way that he was going to allow my mother to go off and do whatever she was doing, drag us along with her to theater shows and night clubs until all hours of the morning and make him the bad guy for criticizing that. Moreover, the love and security that we knew we had in him when he *refused* to share physical custody because he knew there would be no rules or boundaries or any of that, I can't even describe how significant that's been in forming my character and confidence. He bucked tradition and moved through his hurt to protect us and as a result, we've grown up never doubting that we had his absolute, unwavering love in our lives.

That being said, it never meant we didn't see or talk to our mom. We spent weekends with her, stayed with her when my dad travelled for work and that kind of stuff. The older we got, the more informal it became, naturally. We saw her, but HOME was with Dad and it was always very clear when we would be going back to that home. Of course, my mother was never a flight risk and we were too old to be "taken", so that made things easier than with a more acrimonious situation, but full custody wouldn't necessarily mean no contact. There's a lot of gray in custody arrangements.



> Part of me says that waiting until I get the kids settled in school before starting divorce proceedings will be best for them. Part of me says I need to file now and somehow be Superman to help them through the double transition of going from homeschool to public school and their parents going through a divorce. It is not a good place to be in.





> I would like to live in the same home for consistency for the children during their transition to school. However, I don't think that will really work.


You know what I've learned between my parents' divorce and after working for five years with a supervised visitation center, a safehouse and the families that moved through those places? 

Kids cope better than their parents. They are more accepting of new circumstances and the explanations for them, they adapt more quickly and see the good in it all far better than we do. Adults are far more likely to hold on to the hurt, dwell on what ifs and worry about tomorrow and kids just don't do that. Will it be happiness and rainbows? Oh no. But even in the worst possible circumstances--and I mean _truly_ tragic, not like you and I--when decisions are sincerely made with the best interest of the kids at heart, they thrive in the end. A few bumps along the way, of course...but after that adjustment, they do great. 

Just do what's best for you and the kids. To me, that sounds like moving quickly to establish custody. This is not the time to worry about their mother's feelings, this is the time to worry about should she come back with OM and want them with her and what the ramifications of that situation would be. Think about that in terms of what that would mean about their schooling, their upbringing, their environment. Is that going to be okay with you? Because putting off pre-emptive action puts them at risk for that. 

It's much harder to change custody than to establish it. You may think you have all the reason in the world to have those kids, but you still have to file, make the case, get on the docket, blah blah blah. It's far from instant. And frankly, as cheesy as it sounds, possession is 9/10ths of the law in custody if there's no flagrant abuse or neglect and if she works for family services in any capacity, she's going to know that. 

So get the paperwork filed, document their levels and progress academically, keep records of any help they get from tutors, counseling etc. (pay with checks, not cash), and for the love of Pete, quit posting about what you'd rather be smoking right now. Make yourself untouchable and document every single thing you're having to fix or undo or are doing to make this easier for them. 

At this point, you really have to assume that she's going to start missing some of the comforts of marital life and will come back expecting and wanting custody and the child support that goes with it. It's been a week, right? So clearly something about her visit is working out. 

That means that it's time to push aside whatever it is that you're still wishing for your relationship with her and start thinking like a father and like a Marine and bolstering your defenses. In an ideal world, you won't need them. But if and when you do, they're already in place and you've provided that much more structure and security for your kids.

BOOYAH!


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## karole

Well said CoGypsy!!


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## KathyGriffinFan

karole said:


> Well said CoGypsy!!


I concur


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## loveiswhereiamnot

karole said:


> Well said CoGypsy!!


Ditto.

HiT, I've read through this whole thread and registered just so I could comment. I feel for you so much, and I completely understand your love for your children and wanting to keep your home together.

Your children will survive divorce. They may give you some insight when they are grown about the things you screwed up on, but they will be healthy and happy and free. What they will not survive well is a father who lets their mother run over him either inside a marriage to keep it together or in divorce because he can't grasp that this isn't the person he married.

If they grow up seeing you routinely putting aside your own absolutely healthy need for happiness, they will wind up doing the same thing or they will lose respect for you or both. Don't do this to them.

I know right now you can't see a life without your wife, looking at it makes you physically hurt. But you must look at it and you must see it and accept it. 

It's like deciding to either amputate the limb as fast as you can so it doesn't infect your soul or letting that limb hang off of you for 5, 10, 20 years or the rest of your life until you have no idea who you are because you have let someone else define you.

All my best wishes that this turns out well for you. As others have said, you need to take action right now. Change the locks today, file papers. You have physical custody right now, and you put that in the papers. That doesn't mean you won't have a completely fair custody arrangement for both of you once you determine her mental state when she comes back, who she plans to become in the future, but it gives you some leverage to make sure she does not whisk out to her parents' house, snag the kids and have them moved into either your house or some other place with the OM, then demand alimony and child support while you have to bunk in with a friend for the next ten years of your life because that's all you can afford.

And the homeschooling. At this point, if I were you, I'd be furious. Your wife's job was to stay at home and take care of those kids and get them an education. And she did a crappy job of it. 

I don't know what to call this - it's the LS desperation clouds. You want her back so bad and to return to the life you had before that you would do anything to get it, and you are overlooking a lot of shortcomings in her as a wife and mother and convincing yourself that sacrificing your life to do it is a good thing. It is NOT!!!! And you will destroy yourself and your children if you do not wake yourself up and get a healthy dose of pissitivity at her.


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## turnera

Right. Primary custody, she gets visitation. After abandoning the home and the kids, she should have to prove she deserves even weekends with them. Document every single minute of the last year in a spiral binder.

You can always reconcile LATER if she finally has her V8 moment. For now, preemptive is the ONLY sane thing to do for your kids. And don't worry about offending her. For heaven's sake, she LEFT YOU FOR A MAN SHE'S NEVER MET. There IS no offending on your part. Remember that.


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## turnera

loveiswhereiamnot said:


> And the homeschooling. At this point, if I were you, I'd be furious. Your wife's job was to stay at home and take care of those kids and get them an education. And she did a crappy job of it.


Same here!

I really think you should be getting professional help at this point. You are questioning and blaming YOURSELF for their test scores, when SHE was the at-home teacher. 

How nuts is that? 

Do you see how far off-kilter you are in your thinking that your first emotion is to blame YOU and not HER?


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## turnera

HurtinginTN said:


> That is actually bothering me much more right now than the situation with my marriage. That transition isn't going to be fun. I hate to throw divorce on them at the same exact time. It may be too much for them. I know I have been a doormat, etc. But the impact on them of starting school and a divorce at the same time bothers me. I can't do anything about the start date of the school. I can control the timing of the divorce.


As long as this doesn't mean you're going to let her come home just so it will 'look' good to the kids. AT LEAST not without her giving up her cell phone and her computer and any other access to contacting OM, AND not without her writing him a No Contact letter that YOU review and send yourself.

At the very least. If she won't do these things, she doesn't belong in your family.


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## MrQuatto

I'm inclined to agree more and more with Pitt here. 

Tn will continue to drag his feet and roll over until it is too late, then he will realize how deep in the hole she dug him with no hope of escape. 

I feel for you Tn, I really do. Everyone is pointing to the elephant in the room and you continue to keep your eyes closed. If your not willing to step up, man up and put the TRUE needs of your children above your hopes and fears and concerns, you are well and truly phuked!

(pardon the french but I felt it called for it)
Q~


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## purrhotstuff

HurtinginTN I hate to say that every one on here told ya so but in reality they did.

It took a long while to read all of this and I believe all along, the writing was on the wall. You were just very much in the fog and I hate to say it but you still are.

You have been ambivalent towards all recommendations that involve separation or divorce but what is most disconcerting is that I wonder if your reason for not pursuing those two topics (worrying about how your kids will be able to handle it) is just a guise to mask what the real reason is, and that it is that _you_ can't handle the true idea of 100% separation or divorce. Maybe I am wrong in saying this but your tone through out these posts have been to yo-yo back in forth but always end up in the same place of taking her back and imagining what would happen if she came back (how she would have to work on it, how you'd have to work on it, how you'd get past it). This is not a reality right now my friend. It just is not. She is in another state with her other man doing who knows what. That is reality. You two are already separated.

Is there ever truly a perfect time for separation or divorce? Starting school, beginning summer vacations, birthdays, holidays, deaths, moving to a new home, etc. You are just delaying the inevitable, and what is strange is right now the status quo is that you two are separated.

Filing for separation and showing that you have full custody right now creates a trail for you that supports what we all know: you should have full custody of the kids. It also helps with dividing finances, sets a specific date of separation, spousal support issues, tax issues, child custody, and on and on. The judge doesn't know you, he doesn't know what your wife has done or how she abandoned you and the children. She can spit it however she wants to if you allow her. Undoubtedly, she'll deny deny deny. In her eyes, it was alright, you knew where she was, she called the children, and if it was such a problem, why did you give her the only family car that you have and that you use for work, and give her gas money. Hmmmm, that doesn't seem like she was doing such a bad thing, she had your consent. That is why you need to get the ball rolling now and not assume she's going to play nice or fair, or assume that her family will not change up the script on you during these times.

Do not ignore the pleas of experienced people. Many of us have seen it ourselves. I know I haven't been posting on here long but I feel for your situation. Do not ignore the reality and gravity of your situation. You must begin to do this right away or you will pay for it in the long run and in terms of your children. 

Good luck my friend. I think you are going to need it if it continues this way for you.

Edit: I just read that you will be getting papers ready with a divorce attorney. Good luck and I hope all works out for you and your family. As for you personally HurtinginTN, there are many good women out there that want a good man like you in their lives and will not treat you like your wife has been doing. I know that dating will be a while down the road but the hope of finding someone new and better can be something to look forward to after you finalize everything.


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## karole

How are you TN?


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## HurtinginTN

Actually, I am doing better today than I have in quite some time. I talked to my cousin, the divorce attorney. She will draw up the papers, but I am looking at a couple of other attorneys also. She practiced many years as a divorce and bankruptcy attorney. However, she has not been practicing for a few years. Her husband died a couple of years ago and she has taken everything really hard. Of course, we were at our aunt's funeral, so being very emotional was to be expected. I don't think I want to involve her since it may get ugly. She's not very emotionally stable at this point, and I probably should have an aggressive attorney. 

I have two leads I will be following up on. I'll probably hear from them today. I read through the thread again last night on "Just let them go." There is a whole lot of truth in that thread. I wish I had listened when it was first posted. I've made many mistakes in this process and in life in general. No matter how much I wish I could change the past, I can't. All I can do is take one day at a time and work on building a better future.

I have been working on letting go of the anger. I am doing fairly well at this point. She will always be the mother of my children. For their sakes, we need to be able to get along. I do still love her, but I know I have to let go and move on.


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## karole

TN, just do what is best for your children and YOU.

I'm glad to hear you will be talking to other attorneys. You are correct that you need an aggressive one. There is one attorney here in the town I live in that is so mean that it's a race when parties file for divorce to see who retains him first!! I know that attorney's fees are expensive, but this is one time you honestly will get what you pay for. It's no time to be bargin shopping. 

Stay strong.


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## 8yearscheating

Any word from her?


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## HurtinginTN

8yearscheating said:


> Any word from her?


She is still there. The van is still not fixed. She has told the kids she will be home this week. She is planning to see her brother for a few days on the way home. We spoke briefly Saturday. This time there was no confrontation.


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## 8yearscheating

No discussion or how's it going info from her?


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## HurtinginTN

8yearscheating said:


> No discussion or how's it going info from her?


She sounds pretty miserable, actually. I didn't get into any talk about the future or the relationship. The van isn't fixed yet. That is a huge trigger for me. IF it had been taken to a shop, it would have been fixed in a day or so. Instead, Romeo is working on it and it's been over a week. Funny how it is taking him so long. I have pointed out he has a vested interest in the van not working. The longer it takes to fix the van, the longer it is before she can leave. Granted, I don't think she is being held hostage. So I suppose his stalling on the van shouldn't piss me off so much. But it does. He convinced her it was "unsafe to drive". lol It has new brakes, 2 new tires, and the other 2 were just balanced at a tire shop a couple of weeks ago. If there were any possible "safety" issues, that would have certainly been a saleperson's dream for a sales pitch to sell some new tires. Anyway, sorry about the van rant. The thing is, she is telling the kids the van "broke down". Oh well, everyone else sees through it. The kids will also before too long.

My son asked me a couple of nights ago if we could drive out to see Mommy. I told him it was too far away. He asked if we could fly out to see her. I told him that she had told him she'll be back sometime this week. He said, "Well, I hope she is having fun since she's been gone so long." It wasn't in a very good tone, so obviously sarcastic. I knew this wouldn't be easy on them, but I am surprised the effect on them is worse than I expected.


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## Powerbane

It's good to see you finally coming to grips my brother. Sometimes making that decision is all it takes to move into a healthier frame of mind. 

Stay dark as you can and funnel official comms thru her parents or siblings. 

Don't forget you always will have more friends and help that you know.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

Have you gotten your kids into therapy yet?


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## turnera

Are you going to let her come back to live with you after shacking up with her boyfriend she went to see in YOUR van?


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## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> Are you going to *let* her come back to live with you after shacking up with her boyfriend she went to see in YOUR van?


This is one of my questions for the attorney. Some have mentioned changing the locks on the house. However, it is half her house. My understanding is that it will remain half her house until either the divorce is final or the house is sold. Even filing a separation doesn't change the fact she owns half the house. I don't think *let* is even an option to be considered.

I will not try to keep her away from her children. She will be able to come back to the house, at least for the time being. I don't see that I have an option on that, actually. Even if I tried, it is as much hers as it is mine.


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## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> Have you gotten your kids into therapy yet?


Not yet. Working on the tutor, though. I am hoping the tutor will be starting this week. I am reading the book Pit recommended which covers a lot on helping the children. I and the family have been doing all we can on keeping them busy and having fun this past week. They do pretty good through the day. The nights are increasingly rough, especially bedtime.


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## loveiswhereiamnot

HurtinginTN said:


> This is one of my questions for the attorney. Some have mentioned changing the locks on the house. However, it is half her house. My understanding is that it will remain half her house until either the divorce is final or the house is sold. Even filing a separation doesn't change the fact she owns half the house. I don't think *let* is even an option to be considered.
> 
> I will not try to keep her away from her children. She will be able to come back to the house, at least for the time being. I don't see that I have an option on that, actually. Even if I tried, it is as much hers as it is mine.


All states are different, I think, but you'll know more after your consult with your attorney. Yes, she owns half of the house, and it is property that will be disposed of in any divorce proceeding. At this point, though, she left for two weeks or more to spend time with another man. She has family in the area she can stay with, she wouldn't be in the streets, and you can give her unlimited access to the children at the house.

I think both of you in the same house at this point would be unhealthy.

1. I think it would be harder for you to keep to the 180. You'll be looking for any sign of regret or reconciliation and will have a hard time not pushing it if she shows it. it can take weeks/months to get to the point where you can be in a good place and strong enough not to be looking for any crumb of hope.

2. She is used to you doing what she wants - that is an old dynamic that's gone on for years. Some distance will help reset that, but trying a house separation will keep that the same.

3. I know it is painful to think about your kids and mommy and daddy living in separate places, and she's going to use that to her advantage, in my opinion. 

4. She left to try on a new relationship, and there has to be some consequences to that. Like finding a new place to live. Don't deny her the reality she's going to have to face. If you let her back in, I can almost tell you for sure that you will be the one that will wind up moving out and she'll get the house and get ordered alimony and child support.

you may have a chance to put your marriage back together in the future, but you have one shot of giving her a reality wake-up call.

If a judge orders her back into the house, fine, then do it, but don't do it a second before then.

I've never cheated, but if I took off on a husband to spend two weeks with another man, I would expect the landscape of my life to look completely different if/when I came back. I would be shocked if I could walk back into my house with my kids and take up residency.

Just my opinion, but I feel for you completely and wish you didn't have to go through what's ahead of you.


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## Jellybeans

Are you filing for separation or divorce? (or both?)


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## COGypsy

HurtinginTN said:


> This is one of my questions for the attorney. Some have mentioned changing the locks on the house. However, it is half her house. My understanding is that it will remain half her house until either the divorce is final or the house is sold. Even filing a separation doesn't change the fact she owns half the house. I don't think *let* is even an option to be considered.
> 
> I will not try to keep her away from her children. She will be able to come back to the house, at least for the time being. I don't see that I have an option on that, actually. Even if I tried, it is as much hers as it is mine.


Ownership and residence are entirely different issues. A separation or divorce filing would very likely contain, or be able to contain, an order for one party or the other to vacate the property. Think about it, if the situation were reversed and she were filing, you staying in the house wouldn't even be a thought. While there are certainly circumstances where the couple can't afford to separate, it is far more common for one person to move out, even before the decree is finalized or the property disposed of. I mean really--do you plan to live with her for another year or two while you divorce and try to sell a house in this market? God willing that's not the way it shakes out, but just imagine how it could play out?

Beyond that, actions have consequences. So far she hasn't had any. You've reinforced and encouraged every single action she's taken and made it seem like it's all okay. I'm telling you, this is the message she's gotten:

_"Sure honey--let me get our only car all fixed up for you so that you can drive 24 hours through the night to go do some other guy until you're tired of him. Whenever you're ready, just come on home and keep spending my money and neglecting my house and my kids. Don't worry, I'll take care of everything, you can just go have fun because that's how much I love you."_

Would you seriously allow anyone else to treat you like that? I mean granted, it's not like you're married and have kids with your friends or family members, but if anyone else acted entitled to your stuff, walked all over you, blew you off and rubbed your face in it and then expected you to be glad whenever they were back around--would you put up with it for a minute? What exactly are you getting from this relationship now that makes it so hard to disentangle from it? 

I'm sure that what would be more productive would be some soothing, uplifting supportive post. But dang it--if you can't get mad about this...someone has to!


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## 8yearscheating

Get ahold of the attorney tomorrow. The is like a joint bank account. You don't have to let her back in other than to get her things which you should boxed up and waiting for her or at her parents house. Make sure you have a friend over when she gets home as a witness. She can see the kids till they go to bed then leave. No cop in the world us going to force you out. When she abandoned all of you which us what you can expect her to try to do. In fact, ask your attorney if you should notify the police of your intentions before she gets home. Please HIT, take the stand now before your left in the cold without your home or kids.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

No matter WHAT you do, pack up all her crap and have it boxed, and either on the driveway or in the garage. If she somehow bullies her way back into the house, she will have nothing to live on. Not even toothpaste. Ok? You may have to let her in, but nothing says you have to make it comfortable.

IMO, your best option is to get with her family NOW, tell them that you are divorcing her, tell them you have packed her crap up and she will NOT be welcome in the house for the kids' sakes, and you would like their support in letting her come stay with them. If they agree, go ahead and MOVE HER STUFF. As soon as she says she's heading back, calmly reply 'your stuff is at your mom's house; head over there and I will bring the kids to see you in your new home.'

Dude, you are too weak, too Beta, to stand up to her, and we all know it. The ONLY hope you have of YOU not being the one kicked out of the house once she starts bullying you, is for you to take action now.


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## turnera

Yes, HAVE A WITNESS THERE on the whole day she'll be back (you won't know when she's coming). If you don't have a witness there, YOU will be the one getting kicked out. Trust me, I've seen it too many times here to be joking.


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## COGypsy

turnera said:


> Yes, HAVE A WITNESS THERE on the whole day she'll be back (you won't know when she's coming). If you don't have a witness there, YOU will be the one getting kicked out. Trust me, I've seen it too many times here to be joking.


Yep, seen it here, seen it everywhere. She stands to get way too sweet a deal if she gets first dibs on the house and kids. Then you're the one defending yourself against whatever she comes up with, you're the one not spending time with your kids when you've already found out how attentive she's been to them in the past and you're paying for her lifestyle AND yours AND the lawyer to get it all straightened out.

Talk to an attorney tomorrow.
Get an order for temporary custody and residence in the home filed immediately.
Make a plan for the rest with either a civil standby or a disinterested third party when she comes back.


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## the guy

H-
She's been gone for a week ..week and half, and when she left she never gave you a return date. For that matter she gave no one a return date!
Is the BIL going to give you a call when she arrives? Is she going to hang there for awhile? is the van fixed?
The point is there is so much uncertainty that it would make sence to pack her things up. The kids will hate this but don't you all need closure in her abandonment?

I think the biggest effect in making her affair as uncomfortable as possible is the realization that all her things are packed and stored.

Sooner or later this action will need to be taken....we all know the BS roller coaster the wife will pull when she gets back....come on she is going to be on the fence and she will get you thinking about a R just to justify...but it will boil down to her bailing.

Face it she will mind f*ck you with the back and forth bull. As you can see here at TAM they will screw with your emotions..right NOW LOOK AT IT FROM A 8 YEAR OLDS. protect them from this, her fog and finalize this BS and do not give her a chance to mind f*ck the kids. 

Pack her sh*t up and store it... let BIL know its ready to ship if she choose to live with BIL.

Please let the inlaws know that her coming back home is bad ...do not let her put these kids on a rollercoaster. Shes gone...she moved out. Granted mommys back but she is not completely back.

I'm just say.... I can see the kids thinking shes back for good" That totaly suck she leaves again.

Keep her away until her little vacation can be sortted out by a pro.

I mean not far away but again letting her back then leaving again its so wrong at every level in what she did to the kids.

For Gods sake she could of made a commitment to the kids on a return date. 

I'm pissed bro...its been a tough day ..sorry for the rant.


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## 827Aug

I agree with everyone. HurtinginTN, you have got to stop the nice guy routine. What she has done is clearly over the top. She is not even a fit mother at this point. She put this other man above her children....she abandoned them! You need the house and custody of the children for THEIR well being.


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## HurtinginTN

The in-laws agree we need to separate at a minimum. The kids went swimming tonight. I talked to two of her sisters for a while. I told them I am ready to file for divorce. They brought up a few good points.

1. Right now, the kids aren't in school. In 3 weeks, they will be. I should hold off on filing for divorce until they have an established stable routine. This will look better in custody debates.

2. They agree she shouldn't come back into the house. I explained that I can't do anything about that without filing for divorce first. Apparently, from these posts, I should be able to put in the divorce decree that I get the home and primary custody. She will not willingly leave the home. I will not leave the home. They adamantly agreed about that. One told me I should tell her she either moves out or I tell the kids exactly where she went on her trip. That is her biggest fear. I would never do that to my children, but it may be a good bluff.

3. She doesn't have the means to file. I told them there is a benefit to who files first. They said there isn't. Besides, she doesn't have the money and her family certainly won't help with that.

I will still talk to the attorney tomorrow. I thought he would have called back today. I'll give him a call tomorrow. I'll discuss these issues. Also, I still have the concern of throwing divorce at the kids at the same time as starting school.


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## HurtinginTN

the guy said:


> H-
> Is the BIL going to give you a call when she arrives? Is she going to hang there for awhile? is the van fixed?
> 
> 
> ..sorry for the rant.


I'm sure he will. She is planning to spend a couple of days there. No, the van is not fixed. Super Mechanic couldn't fix it. lol A week and it still has the same problem.

No problem on the rant. You saved me a lot of typing. I agree.


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## turnera

Let me reiterate:

You can FILE tomorrow. Nothing has to HAPPEN until you want it to. File tomorrow, tell them to not start eviction notice or whatever you need to do to keep her out of the house, and do not proceed with the court dates etc. until the kids are in school.

PLUS, the kids will only know WHEN YOU TELL THEM.

I've seen plenty of adults get divorced, gone to court, everything, and the kids never even hear of it until the deed is done.

You're acting like the minute you file, some police man comes to the door and announces it to the kids.


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## MrQuatto

Tn, i am hoping that this does not continue to fall on deaf ears. 

You need a bit of a wake up call here. As said before, you need to have an indepth appointment with an atty. Right now you really don't have a clue about what the laws are and what your rights are. You are making assumptions that she can move back in, that you cant make her leave. Etc. You need to know the facts. An atty will help you put your plan into motion. 

Also, you REAQLLY need to start holding your cards closer to your chest. This deal with the BIL on the insurance, tellign the inlaws your plans and stuff, it will back fire on you when they see their flesh and blood suffering, regardless of it being of her own doing.

Im not saying to cut ties with them but you need to start to heavily filter what you tell them/

Q~


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## Eli-Zor

File now and stop messing around, the process takes a while so you do not have to wait for the children to be in school. 

Tell your attorney you want her out of the house and have the locks changed.


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## HurtinginTN

MrQuatto said:


> Also, you REAQLLY need to start holding your cards closer to your chest. This deal with the BIL on the insurance, tellign the inlaws your plans and stuff, it will back fire on you when they see their flesh and blood suffering, regardless of it being of her own doing.


I had a talk with my FIL and one of my SIL's husband tonight when I went to pick up the kids. My FIL said that the kids need to be in school. He's pretty pissed as well at the test scores. I firmly agreed and told him they will be. We discussed that she will be very pissed off and think and scream that I enrolled them to be vindictive. They all know the reason. We have failed at home schooling. I know she was the one that was supposed to be teaching them every day, but ultimately it is my fault as their father for not being more proactive in making sure they were receiving what they needed. 

We discussed what is going to happen when she returns. It will be very ugly. IF she stops at her brother's house whenever she leaves Denver, we will be able to work some things out before she ever gets home. If not, I told them I need a witness for whenever she gets home. I need that either way. The SIL's husband recommended a good divorce attorney this weekend. We called him on Saturday, and expected him to return the call today. I will give him a call tomorrow to discuss temporary custody and residence in the house. If he approves, I will change the locks, etc. I need to make sure that is legal first, since she does half-own the house.


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## COGypsy

HurtinginTN said:


> I had a talk with my FIL and one of my SIL's husband tonight when I went to pick up the kids. My FIL said that the kids need to be in school. He's pretty pissed as well at the test scores. I firmly agreed and told him they will be. We discussed that she will be very pissed off and think and scream that I enrolled them to be vindictive. They all know the reason. We have failed at home schooling. I know she was the one that was supposed to be teaching them every day, but ultimately it is my fault as their father for not being more proactive in making sure they were receiving what they needed.
> 
> We discussed what is going to happen when she returns. It will be very ugly. IF she stops at her brother's house whenever she leaves Denver, we will be able to work some things out before she ever gets home. If not, I told them I need a witness for whenever she gets home. I need that either way. The SIL's husband recommended a good divorce attorney this weekend. We called him on Saturday, and expected him to return the call today. I will give him a call tomorrow to discuss temporary custody and residence in the house. If he approves, I will change the locks, etc. I need to make sure that is legal first, since she does half-own the house.


First off, when you have a partnership, there's a certain implicit trust involved. If they're going to homeschool children, etc., then you ought to be able to rely on that happening. Frankly, in a relatively healthy relationship, I'd be pretty irate if my husband were "checking my work" every night. You're supposed to be the father to your children, not your wife. How much of her stuff are you going to take accountability for? 

The next thing I'd put forward from this post and I think the one before that--one is that I think you're still being awfully optimistic if you think you'll "work things out" if you talk to her while she's at her brother's place. All you'll do is give her 20 hours or whatever to come up with a plan of retaliation to the hand you've just tipped. Black and white: don't deal with her until she gets "home".

The other point I'd make is that while your sisters-in-law might have been right in the end--when it comes to the final ruling, filing first might make much difference in the divorce settlement, that's not your first priority right now. I don't know about Tennessee divorce law, but from what I've heard, depending on the state, divorce can take anywhere from 90 days to a year to be finalized. 

What you're after is the ex parte order that sets everything up for the period between the filing and the ruling because in many cases, without strong evidence to the contrary, judges are highly likely to maintain the status quo.

You have GOT to start focusing on strategy, not faith that everyone is just going to be nice for the kids or because she's really decent or truly loves you anyway or whatever. Strategy.


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## purrhotstuff

HurtinginTN said:


> The in-laws agree we need to separate at a minimum.


Not to be too sarcastic, but, YA THINK???!?!?!



HurtinginTN said:


> 3. She doesn't have the means to file. I told them there is a benefit to who files first. They said there isn't. Besides, she doesn't have the money and her family certainly won't help with that.


I certainly don't agree about the not having a benefit to the filing first part. She doesn't have the means to file? Your wife has been deceptive, manipulative and mean and you're making the assumption that her blood will continue to rest on your side of the battlefield through this. Odds are, they won't. 



HurtinginTN said:


> Also, I still have the concern of throwing divorce at the kids at the same time as starting school.


This is a rhetorical question but one that should think about in depth, but, *is this another excuse to prolong this*?


Have you come to the reality that you are headed for divorce court or are you still holding on to a sliver of hope?


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## loveiswhereiamnot

HurtinginTN said:


> I had a talk with my FIL and one of my SIL's husband tonight when I went to pick up the kids. My FIL said that the kids need to be in school. He's pretty pissed as well at the test scores. I firmly agreed and told him they will be. We discussed that she will be very pissed off and think and scream that I enrolled them to be vindictive. They all know the reason. We have failed at home schooling. I know she was the one that was supposed to be teaching them every day, but ultimately it is my fault as their father for not being more proactive in making sure they were receiving what they needed.
> 
> We discussed what is going to happen when she returns. It will be very ugly. IF she stops at her brother's house whenever she leaves Denver, we will be able to work some things out before she ever gets home. If not, I told them I need a witness for whenever she gets home. I need that either way. The SIL's husband recommended a good divorce attorney this weekend. We called him on Saturday, and expected him to return the call today. I will give him a call tomorrow to discuss temporary custody and residence in the house. If he approves, I will change the locks, etc. I need to make sure that is legal first, since she does half-own the house.


What COGypsy said below. 

As well, a divorce filing creates temporary orders. Temporary orders are those that are in effect from the time of the filing until the time of the divorce or the petition is withdrawn.

If you wait, and she files, she will likely petition the court for the house, for temporary alimony, child support, continuation of the children being homeschooled. Basically to continue the life she had before of playing online all day and not schooling your kids with you paying for it and sleeping on someone's couch. With the added benefit of being able to invite OM for a visit to your house whenever she wants. What COGypsy said is absolutely accurate, the court almost always continues the status quo, whatever that is. Make sure it is the status quo you can live with.

If you file, you can get temporary orders to reflect you having custody of the children with free and liberal visitation by her when she returns at the house or at her parents' house, the children will be enrolled in school (make sure the papers reflect that and WHY - keep records of the work you have done to get their test scores up to PS standards), no alimony, no child support, which means she has to start looking for a job when she gets back. This also means that she has to find her own hut to invite her OM to instead of banging him in YOUR house.

You can make provisions in there for a property settlement on the house, depending on its value and equity. You can buy her out of her half of the equity (check with a real estate agent to get a FMV estimate on the house, less all fees and what is owed). If your house has little to no equity, which is quite possible in this housing market, then it's just a matter of if either of you wants to assume the debt or just sell it, split anything you get out of it and each of you provide for your own housing after. What she is NOT entitled to is to live there after abandoning her husband and children for two weeks or more to try on some other guy to see if he's a good fit.

Your goal, being the great father you are, is to wind up with joint custody of the children. I know you love her and you would like to see her turn around and change her mind. She may yet, and you may or may not want her back, but if she has to face the consequences above - finding a new place to live, getting a job, entering the world she's just created for herself - she may get there. Or not.

i know you are sad and hurting and this is the last thing in the world you really want to do. Please trust everyone on here that you need to file asap.


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## Eli-Zor

> If you file, you can get temporary orders to reflect you having custody of the children with free and liberal visitation by her when she returns at the house or at her parents' house, the children will be enrolled in school (make sure the papers reflect that and WHY - keep records of the work you have done to get their test scores up to PS standards), no alimony, no child support, which means she has to start looking for a job when she gets back. This also means that she has to find her own hut to invite her OM to instead of banging him in YOUR house.
> 
> You can make provisions in there for a property settlement on the house, depending on its value and equity. You can buy her out of her half of the equity (check with a real estate agent to get a FMV estimate on the house, less all fees and what is owed). If your house has little to no equity, which is quite possible in this housing market, then it's just a matter of if either of you wants to assume the debt or just sell it, split anything you get out of it and each of you provide for your own housing after. What she is NOT entitled to is to live there after abandoning her husband and children for two weeks or more to try on some other guy to see if he's a good fit.
> 
> Your goal, being the great father you are, is to wind up with joint custody of the children. I know you love her and you would like to see her turn around and change her mind. She may yet, and you may or may not want her back, but if she has to face the consequences above - finding a new place to live, getting a job, entering the world she's just created for herself - she may get there. Or not


.

Good advice.

No emotion, clinical decisions need to be made and soon. Your wife will play dirty have no doubt and in her world there will be nothing wrong in moving the OM into your house and taking your children to live with him.

Your attorney is not there for dialogue but to deliver end results. You want the house, the children and her out. 

You have a very small window to act on this , I suggest you start now.


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## karole

TN, I know you trust your in-laws and right now they could have your best interests at heart or the best interests of your children; however, put yourself in their situation. If it was one of your girls in this situation, when it is all said and done, who would you support? Your child!!! Please understand, no matter how much it seems that they are supporting you AT THIS TIME, they will stand by their child in the end, especially after your wife gives them her spin on all the horrible things you have put her through. 

It also sounds like you expect your wife to come home and suddenly have an epiphany, to be consumed by shame and guilt and want to reconcile. That is not going to happen. She isn't going to suddenly decide that she was wrong and want to fix things with you. She is going to be pissed and will go for the jugular. 

Also, get your own attorney - not one your in-laws recommend. Is this attorney a personal friend of theirs? Has he represented them in the past? If so, then he will have a conflict of interest and cannot represent you anyway. Call an attorney's office, ask to speak w/his assistant if you can't speak with the attorney directly, explain your situation and tell them you need an appointment TODAY. PLEASE!!!! The attorney can petition the court for an emergency hearing to get a temporary order in place hopefully before she gets home.


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## Jellybeans

TN, my dear, you are still in your own fog. Please detach. It will be the healthiest thing you can do for yourself and for your children. How long has your wife been gone now visiting the OM?

What if she doesn't come back? You gonna wait forever?


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## karole

TN, one other thing, please do not use your in-laws or anyone in her family as the witness - get a neutral person or request an officer be present.


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## PHTlump

It's good that you're talking to a lawyer. You need to get things moving now. Don't wait until the kids are in school. If you don't want them to know yet, then don't tell them. But start the process now.

If you're not willing to do that, I guess you could keep looking on the bright side. Maybe your wife will bring you back a t-shirt.


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## lordmayhem

karole said:


> TN, one other thing, please do not use your in-laws or anyone in her family as the witness - get a neutral person or request an officer be present.


Or a camcorder, or a VAR. I know he busted her with a VAR before, one near the computer and another in the van.


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## 8yearscheating

Lod Mayhem, can you suggest a good VAR?


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## 8yearscheating

Got it from your other post Lord. Thanks. Any issue with road noise keeping them running?


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## HurtinginTN

karole said:


> TN, I know you trust your in-laws and right now they could have your best interests at heart *or the best interests of your children*; however, put yourself in their situation. If it was one of your girls in this situation, when it is all said and done, who would you support? Your child!!! Please understand, no matter how much it seems that they are supporting you AT THIS TIME, they will stand by their child in the end, especially after your wife gives them her spin on all the horrible things you have put her through. .


They have made it pretty clear from the beginning. They love their daughter / sister and they love me. They are taking sides with the children. The best interest of my kids is what they (and I) all want. They are not taking my side. They know and have reiterated many times that being with me is best for my children. They've been around closely for many years. I have brought out any dirt that she would be able to bring out on me. I'm sure she will (and has) spin things much differently, but they see clearly.



karole said:


> Also, get your own attorney - not one your in-laws recommend. Is this attorney a personal friend of theirs? Has he represented them in the past? If so, then he will have a conflict of interest and cannot represent you anyway. Call an attorney's office, ask to speak w/his assistant if you can't speak with the attorney directly, explain your situation and tell them you need an appointment TODAY. PLEASE!!!! The attorney can petition the court for an emergency hearing to get a temporary order in place hopefully before she gets home.


I have spoken to a few attorney's offices. My SIL's husband recommended one that I have an appointment with tomorrow morning. He charges a flat fee and does many child custody / divorce cases. I also have one other one in mind that I'll call today as well.



karole said:


> TN, one other thing, please do not use your in-laws or anyone in her family as the witness - get a neutral person or request an officer be present.


I have no one else in town to be a witness. I won't know the exact time, or even day, she will be arriving. So I don't see how I could arrange for an officer to be present. Until then, I'll keep the new status quo. The in-laws are with the kids through the day. I am with them in the evenings. If it looks like she'll arrive in the evening, I may keep the kids at their grandparents' house that night. I don't want her coming home in the middle of the night and disrupting them with her expected fit. 

I got the shot records today for the kids. My MIL is going to take them tomorrow to register them for school. That will be in place before she returns. Depending on how the talk with the attorney goes tomorrow, other things may be as well.



lordmayhem said:


> Or a camcorder, or a VAR. I know he busted her with a VAR before, one near the computer and another in the van.


 I will have a VAR as well as a witness.


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## HurtinginTN

8yearscheating said:


> Got it from your other post Lord. Thanks. Any issue with road noise keeping them running?



The one I got at Radio Shack did pick up some road noise. My van is a piece of crap, though. You can set the sensitivity on the microphone, but I never played around with that very much.


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## turnera

Have you packed up her stuff yet? Moved it to her mom's?


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## HurtinginTN

turnera said:


> Have you packed up her stuff yet? Moved it to her mom's?



Not yet. Waiting to talk to the attorney first. Again, the info I have found reflects that I CAN NOT kick her out of her own home. I don't want to do anything illegal. I'll wait for legal counsel on that issue.

Actually, why should I? What she took with her has been plenty sufficient for 2 weeks. Why not continue living out of her suitcase?


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## lordmayhem

Yes, it all depends on your state's statutes. I just know in my state, that if the other person has personal property there, receives mail there, then she has residence in the home and cannot be kept out of the home.

So its best to consult with an attorney.


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## turnera

To get it out of YOUR house. Packing stuff is not illegal. Throwing it away may be, but no one says you can't move stuff from one area of your house to another. But for your own sanity, get it out. Plus, if she comes home unexpectedly, it will be the single most powerful effector on her about what she has done - to see herself removed from your 'family.'


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## SadSamIAm

I think the kids will better off dealing with this now, than after they start school. Let them know as soon as possible that this will be happening. File right away They will have a little bit of time to get used to it before school starts. It won't be easy on them, but I think doing it after they start school will be tougher (dealing with going to public school and the separation).


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## lordmayhem

turnera said:


> To get it out of YOUR house. Packing stuff is not illegal. Throwing it away may be, but no one says you can't move stuff from one area of your house to another. But for your own sanity, get it out. Plus, if she comes home unexpectedly, it will be the single most powerful effector on her about what she has done - to see herself removed from your 'family.'


:iagree:

Great idea!


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## lordmayhem

HurtinginTN said:


> They have made it pretty clear from the beginning. They love their daughter / sister and they love me. They are taking sides with the children. The best interest of my kids is what they (and I) all want. They are not taking my side. They know and have reiterated many times that being with me is best for my children. They've been around closely for many years. I have brought out any dirt that she would be able to bring out on me. I'm sure she will (and has) spin things much differently, but they see clearly.


Just wanted to bring up what you said earlier in this thread about what your MIL said to you:



HurtinginTN said:


> She is pro-marriage, just not pro-me. She told me straight up when we were talking, *"She is my daughter. Of course, I will take her side. Why is she looking for another man?"* Well, I told her I have admitted and did admit to her that I could have been a better husband. However, that does not excuse the affair. She has no idea how deep it was, but I did give her a few clues.


Time to revert to your Marine training on this issue. Don't rely the in-laws when push comes to shove. Don't let them in on all your plans. From what it looks like, you may be going to war for your children. Don't compromise everything.


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## turnera

I have a feeling, Hurt, that they aren't siding with the kids, as you call it, so much as trying to hide their humiliation at what their daughter did. Based on what MIL said earlier, I will bet you money that, once she's back in town and whining to them, they will fund her a house, they will fund her a lawyer, and they will fund her getting you out of 50% custody. They will be stuck with her the rest of their lives, and they will work hard to ensure that they get to see their grandkids as much as possible, and they will NOT want it to be with you attached. Expect them to turn, once she gets back home and puts the daughter pressure on them. Please protect yourself legally because once she has you out, you're out.


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## KathyGriffinFan

lordmayhem said:


> Just wanted to bring up what you said earlier in this thread about what your MIL said to you:
> 
> 
> 
> Time to revert to your Marine training on this issue. Don't rely the in-laws when push comes to shove. Don't let them in on all your plans. From what it looks like, you may be going to war for your children. Don't compromise everything.


Very good find Lord Mayhem!


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## 827Aug

turnera said:


> I have a feeling, Hurt, that they aren't siding with the kids, as you call it, so much as trying to hide their humiliation at what their daughter did. Based on what MIL said earlier, I will bet you money that, once she's back in town and whining to them, they will fund her a house, they will fund her a lawyer, and they will fund her getting you out of 50% custody. They will be stuck with her the rest of their lives, and they will work hard to ensure that they get to see their grandkids as much as possible, and they will NOT want it to be with you attached. Expect them to turn, once she gets back home and puts the daughter pressure on them. Please protect yourself legally because once she has you out, you're out.


:iagree: Yep, I'm afraid the in-laws have ulterior motives. Careful!


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## karole

I agree. That is why his wife brought up the abandonment issue because her family put it in her head. I believe in their minds they are thinking of the children now; however, when their daughter gets back, they will decide that the best place for them is with their mother with TN having visitation every other weekend. I know you don't want to listen to us TN, but is it possible they are telling you what you want to hear to prevent you from doing anything until they can get her back and help her to make the first move?


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## turnera

Ooh, didn't think of that!


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

karole said:


> it possible they are telling you what you want to hear to prevent you from doing anything until they can get her back and help her to make the first move?


Agreed. 

With her family, at best your looking at double agents. 

More likely they turn on you, but the worst part will be you wont know it until much later and it will be "nothing personal". You have genetics and DNA coding going against you on this one. They are not your allies dude.


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## turnera

I wouldn't go that far. I think they genuinely care about him and think he's a great son in law. But I think that, once she returns, they will be torn on what to do. And I really don't think they will choose YOUR benefit over hers.


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## turnera

So just get the legal stuff in place TODAY so that, no matter what happens when she returns, you are protected, and your rights to your children are protected. All she has to say is 'he scares me' and you could be locked out from your kids.


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## HurtinginTN

Retainers suck! Best chance of keeping the home and primary custody is now. Chances diminish IF she returns home with each passing day of her in the house. I can't keep her out of the house without a judgement. I will be paying alimony and child support, but there are ways to minimize it.

So, find several grand somewhere very quick or risk my chances of primary custody diminishing.

Or search for a cheaper attorney. He is the best around, according to several independent sources. I guess you get what you pay for.

Turnera, you're thread scares me. "He scares me." I wish I had remembered to ask the attorney about that. I guess that is where the VAR will come in handy.


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## 827Aug

Since time is of the essence I think I would put that retainer on the credit card. Then, find a way to pay it off. A good divorce attorney is definitely money well spent.


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## 52flower

:iagree:


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## 8yearscheating

Ask the lawyer if he will do a payment plan. If not, pull a personal loan at the bank to pay off the credit card - much cheaper.


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## 8yearscheating

Side note, my lawyer was willing to do a negotiated settlement with ONE lawyer for that amount. Meaning he negotiated with wife, no other lawyer.


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## SWEETP76

Once the trust is gone, I just don't think the relationship will ever be the same. My husband has his first "emotianal affair" a few years back and I just caught him doing it again! Go with you gut! Good Luck!


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## turnera

Unfortunately, this is the ONE time in your life when you just HAVE to spend that money. Find it, borrow it, beg it from friends and pay if off later, but PROTECT YOURSELF.


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## lordmayhem

karole said:


> I agree. That is why his wife brought up the abandonment issue because her family put it in her head. I believe in their minds they are thinking of the children now; however, when their daughter gets back, they will decide that the best place for them is with their mother with TN having visitation every other weekend. I know you don't want to listen to us TN, but is it possible they are telling you what you want to hear to prevent you from doing anything until they can get her back and help her to make the first move?


:iagree:

This is why your WW is all of a sudden trying to get back and mentioned the abandonment issue without you even saying it. After all, SIL is an attorney.

Either payment plan, or if your credit is good enough, a small personal loan if you can.


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## turnera

Hell, you could go on craigslist and state your case; I bet you'll get people helping you with legal fees.


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## karole

TN, so proud of you for moving forward. Call the attorney today and tell him you are working on the retainer. Ask him if he will go ahead and prepare the documents so that he can file them as soon as you deliver the retainer. We all want you to see you get primary custody of your children. Act fast so that you can. And PLEASE do not tell your inlaws or any of your wife's family what you are doing. That is extremely important.


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## HurtinginTN

Last night, something happened that I can't put my head around. My children were upset that everyone kept talking, but not around them. They said they know where Mommy is, but no one will tell them. They did. Actually, they were very creative. My oldest made a test and asked me to grade it. It was one question.

Where is Mommy?

A. Uncle's house.
B. HIM
C. Home
D. Grandma's

They had checked B, of course. We were discussing this and my oldest had a weird look. I asked what was wrong. She said she saw something. It took quite a while to get it out of her.

She said she could see us sitting there. Then, she said, "You know how on judgement day, God will be sitting on his throne and telling people where they go?" I said, yes. She said, "Well, I saw the throne and I was standing in front of it. Then, I was sent to the devil's house and I saw fire all around me."

We had a very long talk after this. I assured her that her mother's actions have absolutely no reflection on her. Later, my WW called to talk to the kids. My daughter told her about what she saw. 

My wife asked to talk to me after that. She cried and said, "I don't want this. I don't want a divorce. What she saw shows me the consequences of this. I don't want this. It's over with him. If you'll still have me, I want to work on our marriage."

Shortly before this call, she had talked to her brother and said she was planning to come home for a divorce. I firmly believe her change of heart was directly from what my daughter saw and not anything that happened between her and OM.

Now, I suddenly have somewhat of a dilemma. Do I believe it this time? The vision is certainly not something you see every day. It is also something that could certainly rock someone to the core. Is this a true V8 moment? A part of me still wants to believe it. A part of me says it is too little, too late. If it is sincere, I will know immediately upon seeing her. I will also know if it isn't, I suppose.


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## SadSamIAm

I don't believe she wants to be back. If she does, certainly not for the right reasons. Not because she respects you and loves you.

I know that I could never forgive my wife if she did to our family, what your wife has done to yours.


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## karole

TN, no one can tell you what to do; however, if it were me, I don't believe I could take her back, at least not for a while. Tn, she needs to suffer some consequences for what she has put you and your children through. If not, what's to stop her from doing the same sort of thing again? She should have to PROVE to you and the children that she wants to be a part of your life as a wife and mother should be. You should not make it easy for her. I know you love her and I know you want her back and your life to just be "normal," but she does not deserve to be able to step back into her life like nothing has happened. After the horrible things she's done to your family, it's difficult for me to believe she just suddenly obtained a conscience. She needs some IC to figure out why she would do something like this. You and your children deserve better. Best wishes.


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## SadSamIAm

Wife will hold all the power and will know it and use it.

She knows she can leave whenever she wants, go screw someone else, and you will take her back. 

You know what she is capable of and you know she has the power. You will spend the rest of your life watching over her, wonder when (not if) she is going to crush you again.


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## loveiswhereiamnot

HurtinginTN said:


> Now, I suddenly have somewhat of a dilemma. Do I believe it this time? The vision is certainly not something you see every day. It is also something that could certainly rock someone to the core. Is this a true V8 moment? A part of me still wants to believe it. A part of me says it is too little, too late. If it is sincere, I will know immediately upon seeing her. I will also know if it isn't, I suppose.


It could be both. She could be sincere right now, but it's unrealistic to expect that she will stay clear on this and not start waffling. If you take her back immediately, I think you can expect a lot of months or years of her being undecided on where she wants to be, more contact with OM, more blow-ups, tears, promises, promises broken.

Don't be quick to go to R. You can always go there later, but take the time you need and she needs to see if she means it, if she shows true remorse and becomes dedicated to working on your marriage and doing everything she can to give you peace of mind on whether she's in contact with him. I just think she's going to have a while longer of the fog to sort through. And she's been two weeks without her children, she misses them, but once she's back home, not missing them, she'll be missing OM. What happens then?

go slow, keep a healthy distance, tell her you want your marriage to work, but you will not and cannot start doing that until you are absolutely certain OM is out of the picture.


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## SadSamIAm

Main thing I see is that she misses her kids, not Hurt. He deserves to be with someone that respects him and loves him. 

He is worried about his children's education. The best education that he can give his children is to explain to his children that marriage is about commitment. He needs to teach his children that they need to value themselves and to stand up for themselves.


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## KathyGriffinFan

> Shortly before this call, she had talked to her brother and said she was planning to come home for a divorce.


That pretty much sums it up. It doesn't have a thing to do with you, she is just now seeing the hurt she's caused to your kids.

Secondly, if you'd like to be married to someone that cheats on you, drives 18 hours to see OM, fails to educate your children adequately, fails to be a real SAHM, fails to clean and maintain your home, and only wants you to be her errand boy...have at it. Good luck! Doesn't sound like much of a life to me, but to each their own.

I strongly believe she doesn't love ya, and she obviously doesn't respect you. If you're intent on living the life you've been living, I would hope you'd at least separate for a while. Otherwise, don't expect things to change at all.


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## COGypsy

HurtinginTN said:


> Now, I suddenly have somewhat of a dilemma. Do I believe it this time? The vision is certainly not something you see every day. It is also something that could certainly rock someone to the core. Is this a true V8 moment? A part of me still wants to believe it. A part of me says it is too little, too late. *If it is sincere, I will know immediately upon seeing her. I will also know if it isn't, I suppose.*


Honestly, I don't think you *will* know if it's sincere or not. I don't think that you have the distance from her actions to be able to make that kind of assessment. I think you'll just let her decide she's back, tell her she ought to do better this time, and then both of you slide back into this same toxic goo.

If she comes back and you do want to give her another chance, I think it needs to start with separation and move forward slowly. I don't think you need to "make her suffer" but she should absolutely earn back the trust of you and your kids. They've made it pretty clear that they are perfectly aware that their mother chose getting laid with another guy over them. Letting her back in like nothing happened is as hard on them as it is on you. Not to mention, if it doesn't work out, then they're right back at square one adjusting to everything. You all are.

Honestly, I would re-read this entire thread. From the beginning. And ask yourself, if this were your best friend asking the same question, what would you tell him? Why would you be any less important?


----------



## Eli-Zor

> My wife asked to talk to me after that. She cried and said, "I don't want this. I don't want a divorce. What she saw shows me the consequences of this. I don't want this. It's over with him. If you'll still have me, I want to work on our marriage."


She is deceiving you, her words are exactly that, words, and are lies, the ONLY proof is if she takes every action to ditch the OM and save your marriage. You must not believe her and must not delay the divorce processes. 




> Shortly before this call, she had talked to her brother and said she was planning to come home for a divorce


This is the real her, and here she says what she really wants.



> I firmly believe her change of heart was directly from what my daughter saw and not anything that happened between her and OM.


This is you trying to deceive yourself and accept her bullc%&p.



> Now, I suddenly have somewhat of a dilemma. Do I believe it this time?


There is no dilemma , your wife is feeding you what she wants you to hear to buy her time for the OM and her to get the fantasy plan into action. 

Your wife is following a plan that affair people follow and once again you are happy to hang onto the dregs, sloppy seconds comes to mind. These are descriptive words affair people use will use to describe the relationship with the OM:- "having mind blowing and passionate sex , she is so in love with the OM, the OM gives her what you don't , her marriage has been dead for many years, her children will be happy with her and the OM" . You wife abandons her children and family then suddenly has an epiphany after one call. Come on who is fooling who.

TN you are in the desperation state of a Betrayed spouse. 

Your plan is to continue with the divorce and abandonment changes. You turn the tables and hold firm.

The requirements on her are to hand write a no contact letter, and in every word action and deed show remorse and commitment to the marriage. Even if she does all this for a few months you still continue with the divorce, you still hold her accountable for the abandonment. After many months you may choose to put the divorce on hold.

You DO NOT NEGOTIATE with HER, you state the terms, no more no less no diluted agreements with her , she signs all documents giving you full custody of the children and TN, get your balls back and stop waffling around.


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## 8yearscheating

TN I agree with those who propose VERY slow and let actions speak, NOT WORDS. IF she comes back and continues to SHOW remorse, becomes transparent, writes a no question of intention NC letter and let's you send it certified registered, return receipt requested letter, gives you all her email, chat, facebook and other methods of contact, changes her phone number and email, blocks him on FB and other like services, explains EVERYTHING that happened on this trip, gets into IC, goes to MC, signs EVERYTHING including the house and full custody of the kids over to you - in other words, shows in EVERY WAY and ACTIONS she's done, then you can decide, but NOT BEFORE. Think she should stay at parents or sisters until time has passed and she is showing all the right ACTIONS. People can wake up and when they do, the actions will prove it. If I'd followed the advice on here, I'd be divorced. There are still people on here that call me womanized becuase I fought for my marriage and have R'd in spite of 20 years, three men and my youngest not being mine. My love for my wife never waned and I'm glad I fought for her.

That's me. YOU make your own decisions. State the terms when she returns, keep your distance by making her stay elsewhere and see if the actions meet the words.


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## 8yearscheating

Oh and keep that VAR going in any vehicle she drives.


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## PHTlump

HurtinginTN said:


> I firmly believe her change of heart was directly from what my daughter saw and not anything that happened between her and OM.


You think she had a change of heart. That's cute.



HurtinginTN said:


> Now, I suddenly have somewhat of a dilemma. Do I believe it this time?


Your wife told you one thing and her brother another. We know she has a pattern of lying to you. Does she have a pattern of lying to her brother? If she lies to both of you, I guess you could flip a coin. If she usually tells her brother the truth, I would believe what she told him.



HurtinginTN said:


> The vision is certainly not something you see every day. It is also something that could certainly rock someone to the core.


Your child is upset by her mother's hurtful actions. That's understandable and normal. Children have active imaginations. Imagining terrible things is also very normal. It is much more likely that she is upset and imagining bad things than that she has suddenly developed a gift for religious prophecy.



HurtinginTN said:


> Is this a true V8 moment?


Absolutely. The 28th time is the charm. 



HurtinginTN said:


> A part of me still wants to believe it. A part of me says it is too little, too late. If it is sincere, I will know immediately upon seeing her. I will also know if it isn't, I suppose.


Given that she has fooled you many times in the past, I wouldn't put much faith in your ability to read her poker face. I think you have to put your faith in her actions. And her actions are that she just spent 2 weeks banging another man. Sorry.

Your children have a mother willing to do evil things to them. That will harm them permanently. That is tragic, but beyond your ability to change. The best thing for them now is to have a father willing to stand up for them against their mother. That is the best way to limit the harm she has done to them.

If your wife spends a year after the divorce being the best damn mother and potential wife you've ever seen, then you can remarry her. That is extremely unlikely to happen.

If the more likely scenario unfolds where your wife continues her affair, or starts another, at least you and your kids will be as protected as possible against her evil actions.


----------



## purrhotstuff

I don't have a good feeling about this. People have been shouting from the rooftops that your wife was up to no good and predicting (correctly) what she was going to do, and for 50 pages of posts now, you've ignored it.

I do not look forward to reading the next 50 pages of posts when you get back together with her. I only say that because I'm 99.9%sure that your decision will be to take her back, no questions asked. Who cares that she was off boinking (old school, dorky term) the other man. Who cares what she's been showing your children is permissible behavior in a marriage. Who cares what she's done. Who cares she's been a liar and a very bad wife. 
Who cares? 

HurtinginTN, if you want that, you deserve it. 

I read somewhere that when people stay with spouses like this, the person taking the crap is just as emotionally damaged as the person dealing the crap.

I guess we'll be reading more posts to come.


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## lordmayhem

(Sorry HiT).

Usually with these long threads, it's wash, rinse, and repeat. She'll just turn on the waterworks, say she's sorry, then play the "what about the children" card, HiT will say it's over the next time she does it, then repeat the cycle. 

Prove me wrong HiT. Be strong buddy.


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## 8yearscheating

Everyone could be precisely right. You must have eyes wide open and not clouded by the love you have for you. SOme folks don't believe people can change and don't believe in the strength of your love for her. It's all about actions and what your limits are in terms of what you can deal with. If you hear the FULL truth from her about this trip and still decide you want to try, the decision rests TOTALLY with you. One thing e veryone is completely right about, you are laying yourself out for a lot of heartbreak even if her actions meet her words. She could change her mind and leave you standing in the road all alone. IC and determining why with IC she did this is critical - and she must tell you the results and help you heal.


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## karole

Did you tell someone in your wife's family that you had talked with a divorce attorney? If so, I would bet that is the reason for her sudden change of heart and not your daughter's vision.


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## lordmayhem

karole said:


> Did you tell someone in your wife's family that you had talked with a divorce attorney? If so, I would bet that is the reason for her sudden change of heart and not your daughter's vision.


He was already consulting SIL who is an attorney so its a good bet she's been advising her AGAINST HiT. Ironic, she doesnt listen to them about stopping the A, but shes suddenly listening to them when it comes to divorce.


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## karole

Just so I understand, he has been getting legal advice from his wife's sister??? Good grief. I wonder if the SIL is also the person who recommended the divorce attorney he spoke to? This is definitely not good.


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## 8yearscheating

TN, why don't you call SIL and ask if she had a discussion with sister and what was said. True test of their honesty with you!


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## 8yearscheating

And honestly, this whole things sounds TOO fishy. I would start with the attorney just as insurance s you don't lose the edge with custody and house and abandonment. If it turns out differently, great. Only a small amount of money lost. If not, you just spent very wisely to protect yourself. Be very careful what you believe from her family. Look at this way, if you had to fight having lost that edge, the cost would be MUCH higher.


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## karole

I'm sorry, but I don't think the SIL will tell him what they discussed (at least not the whole truth), especially if she is going to represent her sister, that would be a conflict of interest. Even if the SIL is not representing her, her loyalty is to her sister, not TN. At this time, TN should trust no one but himself and his attorney whom he should not hire based on the recommendation of his wife's family.


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## karole

I sure do hope that the fact that TN hasn't posted in awhile is not because he has driven to CO to fix the van and give his wife a ride home.....................................


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## HurtinginTN

karole said:


> Just so I understand, he has been getting legal advice from his wife's sister??? Good grief. I wonder if the SIL is also the person who recommended the divorce attorney he spoke to? This is definitely not good.


No, one of her sisters is an attorney. She is not practicing at this time. We have had discussions over the course of this affair, but nothing on legal matters.

She is not the one who recommended the divorce attorney I spoke with. The husband of one of her sisters recommended him. Independent confirmation shows he is a great divorce attorney. A co-worker is familiar with him. He told me the word on the street is "If you want to win in a divorce, go with ____."


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## HurtinginTN

karole said:


> I sure do hope that the fact that TN hasn't posted in awhile is not because he has driven to CO to fix the van and give his wife a ride home.....................................



lol. Just busy with work and the kids. I would much rather work out the details of the divorce amicably and come to an agreement. That way, the divorce will cost much less. That retainer is a very big hurdle. Still working on that. Also trying to work out the details amicably. That would be best for everyone involved, especially the children. A long drawn out court battle is the last thing they need at this point in time.

My brother has had two divorces. Both were amicable splits where both agreed to everything and the cost was minimal. I don't think she is going to get on board, so I am still working on the retainer to go the court route.


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## golfergirl

HurtinginTN said:


> No, one of her sisters is an attorney. She is not practicing at this time. We have had discussions over the course of this affair, but nothing on legal matters.
> 
> She is not the one who recommended the divorce attorney I spoke with. The husband of one of her sisters recommended him. Independent confirmation shows he is a great divorce attorney. A co-worker is familiar with him. He told me the word on the street is "If you want to win in a divorce, go with ____."


It's not very far removed - the sister or her husband. Not saying this lawyer isn't cracker jack, but it's not like the husband of this sister is a really independent source. Rely on family for support with kids. That's great. Divorce strategy, talk to someone else. Seriously - if we're wrong, fine you distanced a little from her family, if we're right, we saved your a$$.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

The brief glimpse of remorse was even more short-lived than I expected. Yes, it was exactly what I wanted to hear. It seemed very genuine. However, we talked a while last night. There is no remorse. She doesn't see the wrong in what she has done. She supposedly has ended it with him and wants to work on our marriage "for the kids' sakes." She doesn't want to put them through a divorce after hearing about my daughter's vision. She will work on it.

However, I asked what that looks like. Marriage counselling? "I don't think we need marriage counselling. We know what to do, we just need to do it. You are the one that says feelings follow actions. I am willing to put in the actions to see if the feelings come back."

Well, that isn't quite good enough. Possibly if true remorse existed and the actions met fully with what she said a couple of nights ago, there may be a shot. Not now. I will pursue a legal separation at this time instead of divorce. There are several reasons for this. It leaves open the door for reconciliation at some point down the road (months at a minimum). It also reduces alimony since I can keep her health insurance on my family plan. That reduces her expenses, thereby reducing my alimony payment. Yes, even though she committed adultery and left the marriage, I still have to pay alimony. Don't that suck?


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## HurtinginTN

golfergirl said:


> Not saying this lawyer isn't cracker jack, but it's not like the husband of this sister is a really independent source.


He's never liked my wife and has never made any attempts at keeping that from anyone. He grew up with this attorney. I did receive independent confirmation from unrelated parties as to the quality of this attorney.


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## karole

I certainly do not see how anything could be worked out amicably with her when she doesn't even think she did anything wrong!! Does she not have a consience at all? Apparently not. You need to be concentrated on you and your children. Yes, you could have to pay some alimony; however, if this attorney is as good as you say, the amount could be minimal. In fact, if you are awarded primary custody, you could be awarded child support which could be in an amount comparable to the alimony you think you would have to pay. 

Most likely, your wife's family will be certain she has adequate representation.


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## golfergirl

HurtinginTN said:


> He's never liked my wife and has never made any attempts at keeping that from anyone. He grew up with this attorney. I did receive independent confirmation from unrelated parties as to the quality of this attorney.


It seems to have worked in this situation, but regardless - most people agree they wouldn't appreciate their spouse plotting against their blood. On one hand, they feel for what's right and stick up for it, but they weaken. I am the sibling of 2 cheaters, I know. While their spouses were my friends and didn't deserve what happened - family is family at the end of the day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson

HurtinginTN said:


> Yes, even though she committed adultery and left the marriage, I still have to pay alimony. Don't that suck?


There was a long discussion about it in another thread, and I don't want to drift this one, since everything seems to be coming to a head, but briefly, I find the entire concept of alimony baffling. I certainly don't argue with child support, but alimony? You're divorcing to make your lives separate. How separate are they if you're still financially supporting a former spouse?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

Grayson said:


> There was a long discussion about it in another thread, and I don't want to drift this one, since everything seems to be coming to a head, but briefly, I find the entire concept of alimony baffling. I certainly don't argue with child support, but alimony? You're divorcing to make your lives separate. How separate are they if you're still financially supporting a former spouse?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I agree fully, especially in the case of adultery and abandonment. However, Grayson, in divorce court you and I have something against us. A certain bodily appendage about 12 inches long. or is that side of the ruler centimeters? I get those confused. lol


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## HurtinginTN

karole said:


> I certainly do not see how anything could be worked out amicably with her when she doesn't even think she did anything wrong!! Does she not have a consience at all? Apparently not.


Well, I don't think it will either. The difference between $1,350 total cost and a $5,000 retainer charged at $175 per hour with a very real possibility of doubling or tripling the retainer makes it worth a little effort to try for. I have checked around as well.

I don't think she does have a conscience. I don't know any other way she could possibly think her little get-away is OK and she can come home to no changes.


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## golfergirl

HurtinginTN said:


> I agree fully, especially in the case of adultery and abandonment. However, Grayson, in divorce court you and I have something against us. A certain bodily appendage about 12 inches long. or is that side of the ruler centimeters? I get those confused. lol


12 inches? You'll have NO problem meeting someone when time is right. The only time I agree with alimony is when it was agreed that wife stay home to RAISE kids. When kids are in school, there is no reason to not return to work. I would agree to a TEMPORARY alimony to allow someone time to retrain to return to work, but only on a temporary basis. Not a lifetime punishment for marrying wrong person. In cases of cheating and abandonment, I would like to see NO alimony. It seems like a reward for being immoral and a jerk.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

golfergirl said:


> 12 inches? You'll have NO problem meeting someone when time is right.


Oops! I just looked at the ruler. Those are millimeters, I think. lol


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## HurtinginTN

I have to try to throw out some humor today. It's actually not a very good day. She is on her way home. It's not going to be a good weekend.


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## Grayson

HurtinginTN said:


> Oops! I just looked at the ruler. Those are millimeters, I think. lol


Well, there ARE three scales of measurement: English, metric and Internet. I just figured you were going with that last one. ;-)
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

HurtinginTN said:


> I have to try to throw out some humor today. It's actually not a very good day. She is on her way home. It's not going to be a good weekend.


You seem like a really decent guy. That's why everyone is trying to protect you - you're so decent you can't imagine the jerks some people can be - especially someone you've pinned your dreams on for past 13? Years.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

Grayson said:


> Well, there ARE three scales of measurement: English, metric and Internet. I just figured you were going with that last one. ;-)
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:rofl: That's true. On here, I can have a set of 6-pack abs, etc. I don't think that will ever happen in real life.


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## karole

GolferGirl is absolutely correct!!

TN, reading through this thread about all the abuses you have put up with from your wife, I wonder - what would it take or what would she have to do to you for you to get really angry???? 

By the way TN, $175 per hour is not bad, some of the attorneys here charge $300 per hour...and I'm in a small town. In Atlanta, some are $800 & up per hour. So, you are getting a deal. Get that retainer to the attorney and hurry!!


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## turnera

KathyGriffinFan said:


> That pretty much sums it up. It doesn't have a thing to do with you, she is just now seeing the hurt she's caused to your kids.
> 
> Secondly, if you'd like to be married to someone that cheats on you, drives 18 hours to see OM, fails to educate your children adequately, fails to be a real SAHM, fails to clean and maintain your home, and only wants you to be her errand boy...have at it. Good luck! Doesn't sound like much of a life to me, but to each their own.
> 
> I strongly believe she doesn't love ya, and she obviously doesn't respect you. If you're intent on living the life you've been living, I would hope you'd at least separate for a while. Otherwise, don't expect things to change at all.


 She's making kneejerk reactions based on one talk to her kid. YOU'RE making kneejerk reactions based one talk to her. What happened to all the refusal to be a decent housewife and mother? What happened to the utter failure at home schooling (which, in my guess, was simply her justification for not having to GET A JOB and nothing to do with a passion to teach the kids)? What happened to her utter lack of compassion for you and instead total self-absorption and belief that she deserves her happiness, and to hell with what it does to anyone else, LEAST OF ALL the children she bore and should be putting ahead of EVERYTHING?

NONE of that has changed, Hurt. None of it.

Kick her out. Make her be responsible for herself, get a job, learn some humility, and start respecting you. Tell the kids (for once be honest with them!) why you are not letting her back home just yet (for her good as well as theirs), tell her - if she hasn't changed her mind by the time she gets home - that you expect her to be in weekly counseling and you will reconsider letting her come home at the END of December. Hurt, it takes at least that long in hard therapy to learn why you could abandon your own children, and to do the hard work to change that part IN YOU that allowed it to happen. Letting her home before that work is a DANGER to you and your kids.


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## turnera

HurtinginTN said:


> I have to try to throw out some humor today. It's actually not a very good day. She is on her way home. It's not going to be a good weekend.


 Phew! Glad you didn't agree to her crap.

Have you packed her boxes yet? Is all her stuff at her mom's? DO NOT LEAVE THAT FOR HER TO DO. Please trust me on that. You will end up getting kicked out of the house yourself. REMOVE her stuff. At the very least have it all boxed up and in the garage.


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## HurtinginTN

karole said:


> I wonder - what would it take or what would she have to do to you for you to get really angry????


She's done it. She wants me to give her 6 months. She isn't coming home the same person. She will change. I told her those are just words. We need to separate, at the least. I want a legal separation. I believe I posted the reasons. Possibly months down the road, we can work on reconciliation. For now, I don't want her. We can do it the easy way or the hard way. I will leave that part up to her. If the easy way, it will be worked out this weekend. If the hard way, I will visit the attorney with the retainer on Monday.

I will have the VAR on me at all times.


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## turnera

So...you didn't pack her stuff? Is she coming home to stay with you guys?


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## Eli-Zor

Book her in for an STD test and go with her. 

I suspect she gave you the tear routine then went back to bed with the OM. Nothing has changed, she is not remorseful and has little intention of changing.

Unfortunately I don't think you are willing to be tough with her and and are far to willing to compromise. If ever there is a time to pull a 180 it is now. 

State your terms how she WILL behave and what she WILL do as part of NC and marriage recovery. She does all the heavy lifting. If anyone dare mention you are punishing her show them the door, if she mentions it tell her to leave. 

The hand written no contact letter.

A hand written letter of apology to all her family and yours. She does not blame you therein and accepts full responsibility of the affair and the plan she intends to follow to save the marriage

You approve both. 

His full details, address, place of work, room mates name. 

Everything she said to him about you, any further information you require, where they did it how many times, her stating this may hurt you but it will cause her pain as well. 

Let her know you are going to schedule a polygraph. Don't give a date.

Say little to her other than your requirements, then keep quiet. Do not agree to anything she says, you state the terms, if she does not like them she goes. 

Get your kids to school and have her start work, give her a week to get a job, better still she stays out of the house until she has a job and completes the above.

This is the new world, time she put in an equal share. 

TN do not dilute the above, you have in the past continuously compromised yourself by fighting her and giving in to debate and dialogue. 

Remember your wife drove overnight to be with her FB, is she driving overnight to rush home to the family and husband she loves, I doubt it.

Your marriage can and will recover if she shows true remorse and works to save the marriage. Both of you have to change the first step is for you to start manning up, learn to make decisions and stop giving into her whining and manipulating tactics.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach

for what its worth, my W tried to do the exact same thing to me twice. It's called regrouping. I blew a huge hole in her "master plan" and pieces of her fantasy developed holes of their own. I destinctly felt her trying to back up and "regroup"... 

She can use other words, or manipulative tactics but have no doubt. She wants to regroup and rethink her strategy... she is no longer on solid ground. It's critical you keep the pressure on and keep moving forward.


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## Powerbane

Yeah - what Pit, Eli, Mayhem and all the others said!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

The single most powerful control you have...is the ability to say no.


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## HurtinginTN

Eli-Zor said:


> Your marriage can and will recover if she shows true remorse and works to save the marriage. Both of you have to change the first step is for you to start manning up, learn to make decisions and stop giving into her whining and manipulating tactics.



I doubt it can be saved Eli. There has been too much damage done. I told her when she came home that she is not welcome here. She needs to go. I would rather it be the easy way, with her agreeing and working out the details. 

SHE gave me a list of changes. She said she came home a different woman. SHE came up with the changes on your list, pretty much, and more. SHE says she wants to work on the marriage and is ready to do all of the lifting, not just the heavy lifting. We talked a lot Saturday. We went to dinner and out to play pool. SHE wants to go on a date each Saturday night, when the kids spend the night at the grandparents. SHE said no more computer games. SHE said lots of things that she has decided to change.

Yesterday, we went shopping with the kids. SHE made a grocery list, which included the ingredients for my favorite meals that she makes. Her quiche (spelling?) is the best thing you ever put in your mouth. Her lasagne is the second best. Both are on the menu for this week. Lots of hugs, kisses, affection, etc. even though I am totally stand-offish.

The thing is, it looks like exactly what I would like. Yet, I don't want it. I told her this morning before I left for work that I can't do this. There has been way too much damage done to just jump back into things. There are triggers everywhere I look. We have to separate at a minimum. I told her to please consider doing it the easy way today.

Yesterday, we were going to take the kids out to eat. I told her before we left, "Anything but Mexican." It had nothing to do with the food or anything. The Mexican joint we go to is named, "Rio Colorado." I didn't want to go there for the name sake only. I asked the kids where they wanted to go. They all talked about different restaurants. Guess what their consensus was after a few minutes? Yep, they were chanting "Rio Colorado." I took them there. During dinner, they mentioned my surprise birthday party (which occurred while she was gone.) They mentioned the carnival (which is where I took the kids one of the nights I caught her conversation with him on the VAR.) There was even someone at a table behind us talking about what a long drive it is to (Guess where?) Of course, COLORADO. 

I see on here all the time couples reconciling after a physical affair. Often, the OM or OW lives locally. They could hook up on any given day of any given week. Yet, a repeat performance in this situation is not likely to happen. However, it did happen. This whole sordid story happened. Now, she has suddenly changed into the amazing woman she once was.

How long could it last? Is it a ploy? As pit says, pull back and re-group for the master plan? Did it take this stupid trip to open her eyes? As we were shopping, I held back and walked around. I was looking at her with the children walking through the store, checking prices, getting the things on the list she had methodically made with her delicious menu plan in mind. The kids would be happy with Kraft Macoroni and cheese. The quiche and lasagna are for me. She knows they are my favorite. I kept thinking that this looks exactly like what I wanted. So, why don't I want it now? Because I don't believe it is real. Her attitude, words, actions, and everything else have all aligned this weekend to show that she wants to work on this marriage. Of course, she has been a great actress in the past. But this time, she seems very humbled. 

I don't want her. All this time, I have fought and struggled through this thing thinking the best thing for our children was to fix this marriage. Now that she seems to want to do that exact thing, I don't want it. It seems like it truly is "too little, too late."


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## turnera

A woman's greatest asset is knowing how to kiss up to a man. It's what kept us alive throughout the ages. It's embedded in us. Cooking your EXACT favorite foods the first week she's back?

That pisses me off.


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## karole

So, just so I'm clear, you allowed her to come back home and step back into her life without any consequences?????? What is wrong with you man? I don't even know what to say. I will say one thing for the woman, she has a huge set of balls.


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## Jellybeans

HurtinginTN said:


> I don't want her. All this time, I have fought and struggled through this thing thinking the best thing for our children was to fix this marriage. Now that she seems to want to do that exact thing, I don't want it. It seems like it truly is "too little, too late."


Then file for divorce and be done.

She has zero respect for you.


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## HurtinginTN

karole said:


> So, just so I'm clear, you *allowed* her to come back home and step back into her life without any consequences?????? What is wrong with you man?


It is her house as much as mine. As I said before, I would rather work out an amicable separation, as it would be best for all involved. Also, still working on that retainer. 


Allowed was not an option. I can't keep her out of her own home. Well, at this point. Only legal action can force that issue. Like I said, I told her this morning that we need to separate, at a minimum. She has today to consider doing it peacefully.


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## SadSamIAm

And she has no reason to not just do the same thing again. 

One week of sex with a stranger from the internet, followed by cooking lasagna and quiche. Sounds like she should plan another holiday in August!

Seriously Hurt, you need to protect yourself. She is an actress! She doesn't care about you or she never would have done this to you and your family. You need to teach your children the right thing to do. Yes, she is their mother, but someday they will be a parent and you don't want them treating people like this. 

Ask her to leave! If she doesn't leave, file for divorce. You can always get back together in a few months if she does some working on herself.


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## Jellybeans

Why even do a separation? :scratchhead:

What is there left to salvage anymore? She just left you for a week or more to go visit the man she's been having an affair with for two years. Left her kids behind. Didn't give a crap about anything but herself.

Do not sleep with her. Do not even look at her. She doesn't care about you. 

When are you going to see her for who she really is?

She doesn't respect you as a man because you don't even respect yourself.


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## turnera

Wow, y'all are right. She got off scott free. 

Hmmm.

I guess you never even packed her stuff up, did you, hurt? Did you ever even intend to?


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## Jellybeans

^ Please don't suggest anything with logic, Turner. 

At this point he's still letting her call the shots. Groceries, dinner, and to "consider" how SHE wants to separate/move forward.

Once again, TN is a doormat.


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## karole

TN, you are doing the EXACT same thing you always do when you wife pulls another escapade. You are making excuses. You can't get the retainer, you're trying to find an attorney, she owns half the house, you are thinking about the children - on and on and on. It's nothing but excuses. Like I asked sometime back, I really wonder what this woman would have to do to you for you to get angry. Apparently, it isn't running off to meet a stranger, screwing him, abandoning her children and then come back acting as if nothing happened. He's not just a doormat, he's a worn out doormat. His wife has raked her feet across his back so many times, the entire mat is worn through!!! I just do not understand, for the life of me, I do not understand.


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## HurtinginTN

Jellybeans said:


> At this point he's still letting her call the shots. Groceries, dinner, and to "consider" how SHE wants to separate/move forward.


Actually, I told her how we are going to move forward. I want it to be the easy way. I asked her to "consider" the easy route. The reasons for legal separation I have outlined already. There may be a point later down the road I would be willing to reconcile. That is not right now.


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## karole

Sorry to say it TN, but all you have done is allow her the time to retain an attorney and have you removed from the house - which she is probably doing today. Everyone here tried to tell you to get it done before she got home and you wouldn't listen.


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## 8yearscheating

Hurting, I disagree with almost everyone on here. I think you need to give it time and see how things go. Definitiely set your boundaries and requirements - make her move out if you want to, but don't slam the door. Give yourself time to get over the shock of what just happened and don't make major decisions right now. See if she truly puts the actions behind the words and then decide. I felt the same way immediately after the wife's affair finally ended. Seeing the actions behind the words chaneged my mind and my love was too strong to just quit. Iknow I'll take a LOTof flak over this. Just don't jump too far too fast. See how hard she works for it. 

What did the VAR tell you when she got back? Keep in mind, 98% of it was fog talk.


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## SadSamIAm

Why would she get an attorney? She knows he isn't going to do anything. She knows she can cook lasagna and all will be fine. She can stay in the house, not work, and do as she wants. Why would she want a divorce?

She knows what he is saying, "We have to separate, are you going to do it the easy way or the hard way?" But she knows he won't do anything so she is going to do nothing. She is going to ACT like she loves him. He is going to spin his tires. Problems with retainer, problems with kids starting school soon, blah, blah, blah .....

In a couple of weeks he will be telling us that they are working it out. Then in a month or so, he will find her texting some guy or playing on the internet with some guy or just screwing some guy. She can do whatever she likes and he will just let it happen.


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## HurtinginTN

8yearscheating said:


> Hurting, I disagree with almost everyone on here. I think you need to give it time and see how things go. Definitiely set your boundaries and requirements - make her move out if you want to, but don't slam the door. Give yourself time to get over the shock of what just happened and don't make major decisions right now. See if she truly puts the actions behind the words and then decide. I felt the same way immediately after the wife's affair finally ended. Seeing the actions behind the words chaneged my mind and my love was too strong to just quit. Iknow I'll take a LOTof flak over this. Just don't jump too far too fast. See how hard she works for it.
> 
> What did the VAR tell you when she got back? Keep in mind, 98% of it was fog talk.


8 years, thanks for replying. I understand you have been through this as well. I just don't feel anything for her at all. Nothing. Well, nothing good. Plenty of anger, bitterness, resentment, etc. Part of me wants to believe the changes are genuine. Everything she has said and done since she has been home have been precisely from a script I would have written. That's why I thought I might give it a shot to see if it continues. However, I just get angrier and angrier. I can not be around her. There is too much damage. Maybe at some point, but not now. 

I didn't have a VAR with her. I had one with me when she got home in expectation of a totally different set of circumstances.


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## Jellybeans

HurtinginTN said:


> There may be a point later down the road I would be willing to reconcile.


And this has been and will continue to be your downfall. 
She knows there is nothing to lose. She knows you are always there for her no matter what. It doesn't matter if she runs off with some man, abandons her husband/marriage and children, you will still be waiting for her when she gets back from her escapades. So you give her a month or a few months...she knows at the end of that time, you will still be there for her because there are no consequences for her actions.



8yearscheating said:


> I think you need to give it time and see how things go. Definitiely set your boundaries and requirements


What boundaries? He has no boundaries and hasn't since this thread began.

Yes, definitely advise him to keep letting her eat all the cake she wants. That will help him immensely.


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## golfergirl

Jellybeans said:


> And this has been and will continue to be your downfall.
> She knows there is nothing to lose. She knows you are always there for her no matter what. It doesn't matter if she runs off with some man, abandons her husband/marriage and children, you will still be waiting for her when she gets back from her escapades. So you give her a month or a few months...she knows at the end of that time, you will still be there for her because there are no consequences for her actions.
> 
> 
> 
> What boundaries? He has no boundaries and hasn't since this thread began.
> 
> Yes, definitely advise him to keep letting her eat all the cake she wants. That will help him immensely.


I think it's sad what you've done to your children. They think Mommy's back and then you make her leave? If she doesn't have you thrown out first.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## HurtinginTN

golfergirl said:


> I think it's sad what you've done to your children. They think Mommy's back and then you make her leave? If she doesn't have you thrown out first.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ouch, that hurts. Deservedly so. We just talked. She called to tell me about an extremely inappropriate post her sister made on her blog. My children read her blog each day. She knows this. Yet, she posted something that was totally out of line and hurtful to my children. This is the woman that was doing my laundry, fixing supper, making coffee in the mornings, etc. for the past couple of weeks. Wow, to go from being so kind and generous for all she has done for 2 weeks to doing something so very stupid and inconsiderate, especially knowing full well that my children would be reading it. 

That's kind of crazy when I look at that. She was awesome for 2 weeks and switches to being extremely inconsiderate. My wife was extremely inconsiderate for 2 weeks and switches to being awesome.

My mother-in-law suggested in a conversation a few days ago that she would try to take my kids away from us. She said, "They are just as much my kids as they are yours." Unbelievable. This is from a woman that is gone more than she is home. I don't know if there are other men involved in her absences. I doubt she could find one to put up with her, actually. But she is gone more than she is home. Visiting her sister, other family, etc while her husband stays home. She actually said something about going to court if she has to in order to "do what is best for MY children." As if this woman getting custody of my kids would be best for them. Unbelievable.

Those kids are true gifts of God. He could have given them to any parents in the world. He gave them to us. Have we made mistakes in not keeping up with the home school as well as we should have? Yes. I should have been helping and she should have been doing much more. She is working on it today. Have we made mistakes in our marriage? Yes. Both of us have made mistakes. Are we both finally ready to learn from our mistakes and move forward? Yes.

What does the Bible say about it? In regards to divorce, adultery is given as grounds. However, "in the beginning it was not so." I don't remember the actual verse. There are plenty of stories where repentant folks are given second chances.

The prodigal son. He came back begging for a job as a servant. He was treated as a king. 

The woman caught in adultery that everyone was going to stone. Jesus wrote something in the dirt and everyone walked away.

Hosea.

Wasn't one of the Mary's a prostitute?

Well, thank you all for the advice. I apologize for frustrating you with this horrendous story. Most have said for a long time to just move on. To what? My brother's second wife cheated and left after just a short time. Most women cheat. We men have that stereotype, but I firmly believe it is equal, if not more so on the women's side. Who's to say the next one would be any better? 

This is the mother of my children. She is repentant. I am getting off the wall and moving forward, with her. We are both changed people. This process has been extremely painful, but I believe it has been necessary. For some reason, we had to go through this ****storm. It's time for a new chapter in our lives.

This will be the last time I come here, for at least a few months. Perhaps at some point, I will come back to give an update. I know most of you will think I am a total and complete fool. Perhaps you are right. Time will tell. However, I can not sit on this fence. Coming here only pushes one direction. I don't feel peace going that direction since she is remorseful and repentant. I feel peace going the other direction, a new direction with her and my children.

I certainly would like to remain in contact with my friends from here. Those of you with my email address, please keep in touch. I wish the best for all of you that are going through this hell. If you are here, you most likely are. Thank you for giving me an outlet for these many months.


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## karole

I will be praying for you TN......


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## turnera

HurtinginTN said:


> This is the mother of my children. She is repentant. I am getting off the wall and moving forward, with her.


Wait, what? Because someone posts a hateful blog post, you and your wife are now united as a team against the world? In two hours? WOW.

Has it occurred to you that she conspired with her sister to make that post just SO you would unite with your wife?

Just wow.

Look, I'm all for reconciling. Just not the way you are doing it!

You will be back here in two years discussing her LATEST man. Well, no, you probably won't. You'll be too embarrassed.

Good luck, hurt. You're going to need it.


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## SadSamIAm

I wish you the best Hurt. I am worried that she is going to take advantage of you. Will be waiting to hear an update from you in the future. I sincerely hope this goes well for you.


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## karole

Also, FYI, your parents or your wife's parents have no grounds to get custody of your kids. They wouldn't even qualify for visitation rights if the two of you divorced. I don't know where she came up with thinking she could get custody of your kids.


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## KathyGriffinFan

Oy vey. *Slaps forehead*

I guess I shouldn't be too surprised though. You have been a doormat since day one, and I say that as nicely as I can (although you can't hear my sweet tone over the internet).

We could all go on and on about reconciling is one thing, but how you're doing it is so NOT in your best interest. You teach people how to treat you. She's been back a day or two, and now she's an awesome wife? Lest we forget about the adultery and all that jazz.

Your woman doens't respect you, it doesn't change itself on it's own.



> My wife was extremely inconsiderate for 2 weeks and switches to being awesome.


She was only "inconsiderate." Sorry my friend, you're still in a fog.
She's now "awesome." That's the lack of a wife you've had, that when she does average things like cook dinner, is affectionate and attentive, you think she's doing something extra awesome. Yes, women that take care of their men and family on an everyday basis are truly awesome, but this chick just came back from banging OM. She ain't that awesome.



> My mother-in-law suggested in a conversation a few days ago that she would try to take my kids away from us. She said, "They are just as much my kids as they are yours." Unbelievable.


No, not unbelievable. It's what we were all worried about. You're referring to the mother-in-law that had only the childrens best interest at heart, and you said would probably side with you, right? Look how things change.

Well TN, good luck to ya. For the sake of you and your children, I hope I'm wrong and everything works out for you


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## SadSamIAm

I am guessing the 'hateful blog post' is about your wife abandoning her family to go [email protected] the other guy. Something your kids already know.

It is a terrible thing that your kids know your wife doesn't love you. It is a terrible thing that they know that their mother is a tramp. It is a terrible thing you are teaching your kids that this is OK.


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## turnera

At 10:49am you wrote:


> There may be a point later down the road I would be willing to reconcile. That is not right now.


At 1:27pm you wrote:


> This is the mother of my children. She is repentant. I am getting off the wall and moving forward, with her. We are both changed people.


All because of a phone call?

I get it, hurt. You're getting off this website because we are no longer supporting your choices. See that all the time.

And I TOTALLY get wanting to keep the family together. Support it even. In the right way.

I will just say this, which I often tell my DD20 when she's deciding what to do: If there are 100 people in a room, and 99 of them see something one way, and one of them sees something else, which group is probably right? Trust the numbers. 

WE don't know you and your wife. Maybe she went to hell and back on that trip. Maybe it WAS the mea culpa she needed. I sincerely hope so. Not for YOUR sake; you're an adult and can make your own choices. For your kids' sakes, so they don't end up getting wrung through ANOTHER (at least one more) wringer.

Best of luck. 

Ok, one more thing: Are you AT LEAST going to make her go to counseling?


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## Eli-Zor

> Book her in for an STD test and go with her
> 
> State your terms how she WILL behave and what she WILL do as part of NC and marriage recovery. She does all the heavy lifting. If anyone dare mention you are punishing her show them the door, if she mentions it tell her to leave.
> The hand written no contact letter.
> 
> A hand written letter of apology to all her family and yours. She does not blame you therein and accepts full responsibility of the affair and the plan she intends to follow to save the marriage
> 
> You approve both.
> 
> His full details, address, place of work, room mates name.
> 
> Everything she said to him about you, any further information you require, where they did it how many times, her stating this may hurt you but it will cause her pain as well.
> 
> Let her know you are going to schedule a polygraph. Don't give a date.
> 
> Say little to her other than your requirements, then keep quiet. Do not agree to anything she says, you state the terms, if she does not like them she goes.
> 
> Get your kids to school and have her start work, give her a week to get a job, better still she stays out of the house until she has a job and completes the above.


Have you done the above without compromise or dilution.

Do not think to deeply about a future without without her, what you need is time, and her very action must evidence her commitment for the future.

HTN there is a phrase that is used...*she must throw the OM under the bus*, he must dislike her so much that ALL the bridges are burned and there is no go back for her, your wife is a pro at acting and you must be aware of this. 

I still say you can recover your marriage but and it is a big BUT she has to do the work and KNOW how much she has hurt you.You can never trust her again, she has proven she can cheat and is willing to go to the extreme for his own needs. You must not be fooled into a false recovery .

With all this said I suggest you go to the MB site and download the emotional questionnaires for you both to complete. 

Furthermore do not blame your sister in law, you yourself have declined on numerous times to follow a course to protect your family and the only reasons from what I can read is your child had to say something and/or the OM was not up to par. 

Hang in there marriages have recovered from worse and been better for all. it takes two or more years before this will be where you want it to be and the triggers are nulled. 

Wishing you well


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## SadSamIAm

Unfricking believable!!!

There will be no counselling. She won't have to get a job. She will continue 'non' home schooling the kids. 

She can leave, screw the other guy for a week. Come home and all is forgiven over Lasagna.


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## 8yearscheating

Best of luck HTN. Make sure she does the work and shows the actions. Don't abandon this place. I know there is lot of just dump her here but there are folks who will cheer you on if R is what you desire. Only you know all the details and only you can read what she's doing though love definitely taints your vision. PM me your email. Having R'd I can be a resource to you and a sounding board. I wish you all the best on your journey!


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## KathyGriffinFan

> Most have said for a long time to just move on. To what? My brother's second wife cheated and left after just a short time. Most women cheat. We men have that stereotype, but I firmly believe it is equal, if not more so on the women's side. Who's to say the next one would be any better?


Most women cheat? Really?

Your main reason for staying with her, is because the next one might not be better?


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## KathyGriffinFan

SadSamIAm said:


> Unfricking believable!!!
> 
> There will be no counselling. She won't have to get a job. She will continue 'non' home schooling the kids.
> 
> She can leave, screw the other guy for a week. Come home and all is forgiven over Lasagna.


:iagree:That is my main point of contention as well. There are no repurcussions for her actions, and for TN to take her back without any questions asked, is a recipe for disaster.

I truly feel bad for the guy but I hope I'm wrong and all works out well.

On a lighter note, maybe TN really loves him some lasagna...kinda like Garfield?


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## 8yearscheating

Okay everyone - you beat him up for his beliefs. Now your beating him up and predicting a horrible future for him. Why in gods name would he want to stay on here? You don't know precisely how he is handling it and NONE of you can predict what she will do. You may all be right. Think of how good it will feel to say nah nah nah nah nah, we were right and you got your heat torn out!


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## 8yearscheating

At the time when he needs help navigating treacherous waters, you drive him to cut the lifeline from the people bailing water into his boat!


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## Jellybeans

8yearscheating said:


> Think of how good it will feel to say nah nah nah nah nah, we were right and you got your heat torn out!


Nobody ever wants to be right about these things, 8years. 

You know that.


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## karole

I don't see where he was "beat up." He asked for advice and got essentially the same advice from everyone except you.


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## 8yearscheating

I know that JB. But the thrashing on here for HTN was as usual WAY TO MUCH.


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## 8yearscheating

Go back and read Karole. You can only call someone an idiot so many times before they tune out.


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## Anymum

Very true 8-years.

Good luck HTN


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## pidge70

I agree with the fact that there was WAY too much bashing. He loves his wife, I get that. I do believe though that he is letting her back in way too quick. There are no repercussions for her actions. She knows how to play him, plain and simple. He went from saying he felt nothing good for her and in two hours he did a 180. I hope and pray it does work out, I fear that it will not. Good luck TN, I will be sending good thoughts your way. Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## golfergirl

pidge70 said:


> I agree with the fact that there was WAY too much bashing. He loves his wife, I get that. I do believe though that he is letting her back in way too quick. There are no repercussions for her actions. She knows how to play him, plain and simple. He went from saying he felt nothing good for her and in two hours he did a 180. I hope and pray it does work out, I fear that it will not. Good luck TN, I will be sending good thoughts your way. Take care.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Wishing you the best HIT. Hurts my soul but hope you are free of pain.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SadSamIAm

The reason I post what I do to Hunt is because I care. I think he is making a dreadful mistake.

I was being blunt because I want him to see how serious this is. What he is setting himself up for! What he is showing his kids!

8yearscheating - Do you really believe he is doing the right thing letting her step back in after what she did to their family, so quickly? Don't you think she needs to learn a lessen. To see that Hurt is strong enough to let her go.


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## karole

I don't believe anyone intentionally said anything to bash TN, to the contrary, I think most people here have his best interests at heart. Also, I don't see where anyone called him an idiot - a doormat - but not an idiot. It is extremely difficult to stand by and watch a train wreck.


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## Walt

HiT - I've been following your story since day 1. 

No one here knows all the nuances and details of your life - only you do. You have to live with your decisions, not us. I can only hope you are thinking with your head and your heart.

Thank you for allowing us to be a part of this difficult situation.

My best to you.


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## purrhotstuff

8yearscheating said:


> Okay everyone - you beat him up for his beliefs. Now your beating him up and predicting a horrible future for him. Why in gods name would he want to stay on here? You don't know precisely how he is handling it and NONE of you can predict what she will do. You may all be right. Think of how good it will feel to say nah nah nah nah nah, we were right and you got your heat torn out!


I think it's childish of him to run away now. My sister was with a horrible man that did not provide for her or her children and cheated on her constantly, and my parents always gave her the truth. They reconciled one time and she didn't like what my parents had to say about it, so she didn't speak to them for a year.

As someone else said, at one hour, HurtinginTN said he was done, the next, he said they were reconciled.

You come here for the truth, not a pat on the butt. I think TN is just as bad off as his wife. I took the time to read the entire thread and I don't think 1 person beat him up as you say. No one is happy that they were right about things. I also think you are very wrong that anyone would be happy if they are right about his future.

He came here for a perspective and just didn't like what he heard.


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## Saffron

Good luck TN, I hope your wife turns out to have earned your gift of a second chance.

For the record, I'm a woman and in the 17 years with my H (2 dating & 15 married) I have not cheated physically or emotionally. Not even a kiss with another man or an inappropriate text. So, there are woman out there (men too it seems!) that don't cheat. 

I'm hoping my H will someday be worthy of his second chance too.


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## 8yearscheating

Ok now we're saying he's childish and as bad off as she is People come here for help not to some else's perspective in the form of disrespectful judgements and personal degradation. Go vent your spleen to the person in the mirror before you post that crap.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans

purrhotstuff said:


> As someone else said, at one hour, HurtinginTN said he was done, the next, he said they were reconciled.
> 
> You come here for the truth, not a pat on the butt. IHe came here for a perspective and just didn't like what he heard.


:iagree:

Enabling someone to continue getting walked & stomped all over by an SO who consistently shows a complete & utter lack of respect for them is probably the worse thing that could be done to *help* them.

With that said, good luck, TN. I hope you find peace.


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## Eli-Zor

Unless TN takes a tough stance on this , sets and keeps to his requirements and maintains very high boundaries for his wife to re-enter the marriage this is going to be a false recovery.

There is no room for a halfway, sort of, maybe, on TN's wifes diluted terms. The only way this will work is if TN holds the line, his wife totally commits to TN and the marriage and takes all the steps required to make their marriage work or he proceeds with Plan D. There is no future with an unrepentant , unremorseful spouse who is not willing to change their ways completely.


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## Eli-Zor

A flag , no one knows what deal the OM and the wife made. They could have planned this return to settle things down to remove the abandonment clause, go deeper underground and re-engage when the terms and advantage has switched to TN's wife.


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## turnera

Well, in her defense, he did say she is repentant and totally committed. We don't know what arrangements they have made. Hopefully he's learned a lot here and is at this very moment making good choices about their R.


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## turnera

Eli-Zor said:


> A flag , no one knows what deal the OM and the wife made. They could have planned this return to settle things down to remove the abandonment clause, go deeper underground and re-engage when the terms and advantage has switched to TN's wife.


Maybe, but I doubt it. I imagine she got there and was completely underwhelmed. The dude couldn't even fix her car or afford to fix it for her.

ETA: But I sure hope it's not true!

Hurt, if you're still reading, what about a postnup she has to sign?


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## Almostrecovered

I get the feeling the daughter's "vision" of hellfire is what finally sunk into HITN's wife. I get the feeling he is buying into it as well (especially since it serves his wishes). *If *this is the case (hey, I can offer up a theory/opinion based on what's posted- home schooling, quoting bible, etc), then we're now arguing against faith and it's an argument that usually goes around in circles. Personally, I don't believe faith and logic always go hand and hand. But that's HITN's choice and right to believe what he wishes. I truly hope it works for him, who knows it just may. 

I just ask of HITN to remember that he was the one coming here asking for advice and solace- we've all been through similar situations and our experiences may not be exactly what you are going through but it sure can be beneficial to listen and heed it, even if it's not what you wish to hear at the time.


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## 8yearscheating

I agree ELi - boundaries and definite limits. All I am asking people to do is direct their comments to themselves FIRST while placing themselves in the victims position. If the person seeking help has decided to try,then give him helpful advice on what to watch out for and protect himself. Don't directly or indirectly call him names or tell him his decision is stupid. By directly or indirectly, I mean - doormat is perfect example - it's offensive to the person your talking to. Saying they need to consider the lack of respect and how the WS will behave in the future if they are not firm and unwavering in their resolve accomplishes the same thing. Calling them childish is JUST offensive. If you want people to hear your opinion, you should state it like you ahve ELI. Not with baseball bat in the head first.


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## turnera

Hmmm. Hadn't even caught that, Almost! I sure hope the kids don't end up staying at home.


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## 827Aug

8yearscheating said:


> I agree ELi - boundaries and definite limits. All I am asking people to do is direct their comments to themselves FIRST while placing themselves in the victims position. If the person seeking help has decided to try,then give him helpful advice on what to watch out for and protect himself. Don't directly or indirectly call him names or tell him his decision is stupid. By directly or indirectly, I mean - doormat is perfect example - it's offensive to the person your talking to. Saying they need to consider the lack of respect and how the WS will behave in the future if they are not firm and unwavering in their resolve accomplishes the same thing. Calling them childish is JUST offensive. If you want people to hear your opinion, you should state it like you ahve ELI. Not with baseball bat in the head first.


:iagree:


...and a few of forum rules do apply here.


1. Treat others on the forum with dignity and respect.

6. Be supportive of others and their desire to have happier, healthier relationships.

8. No hijacking threads. If your post is not on-topic for a particular thread, please start another thread for it rather than taking someone else's thread off-topic.


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## 827Aug

Sorry, but this thread is now closed. HIT, I wish you the best and really hope things work out. Please come back (start a new thread) and keep us updated. Also, keep in mind that you can always help others who come here behind you.

Good Luck!


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