# Extra perspective of any kind needed



## Where The Rose Is Sown (Oct 16, 2015)

Hi,
Here is my situation. I have my own thoughts and support from good friends and family. But I feel like, I need to try to think things through from all angles, and I figure, ask the internet!  What better way to get a whole spectrum of responses. So fire away, if you will (I joke here but my situation is miserable).

I have always struggled with my own self-confidence from way back in early school or even earlier; I tend to be very self-critical and this has been one of my lifelong battles.
I was married once before and during that marriage realized - I am woeful about talking about problems (see self-esteem above) and so is my wife, and in fact we don't tackle anything. I did a load of therapy and finally got to the understanding - we were never going to be great together so before we got to kids and property we stopped (my call).

I am in my 2nd marriage for 9 years. I had my best 2 years of confidence of my life (post therapy and previous divorce) and met my wife to be. From the outset she seemed a strong and even difficult character, but I felt like I had just been married to the opposite, and I could deal with this now. We went pretty well to start but we had some arguments and some initial worries and anxiety about money from her side. She has a lot of anxiety and that gets taken out on people around her, mostly me. Anyway, things went well enough and we got married. I gradually found myself feeling more and more down. Eventually more recently work has been really hard going, I have had no energy, and have not been enjoying life or time with our twin sons (2 and a half). I was diagnosed with depression, and started on meds. After about 4 weeks, I suddenly felt like the old very confident me, and when I looked back I saw - my wife has treated me really badly. She is critical and naggy, and she undermines me and behaves badly when friends or relatives come to stay (some kind of attention or jealousy thing). I could always see the negative comments, and we have had quite a few arguments about it as we went along, and I have told her many times to stop talking to me that way, I am not your personal slave, stop ordering me around. A couple of her finest moments including calling me pathetic in front of friends, and calling me ****ing meek at one point. I have a very long temper and would say I am an incredibly reasonable guy, but she managed to get me to lose my temper 4 times in a year. I recently told her, enough is enough, I am on anti-depressants
I looked at a list of 30 signs of emotional abuse, and I recognize about 20, now I stop and look at our history.
My worry is my mental health. I can't stay and go further in the hole (that is a disaster for the whole family - also I am allowed happy life thanks!), and she shows no signs of changing. We started counseling but she seems so far to think it is a chance for the counselor to tell her she is right and I am wrong.

If we had no house or kids, she would be history (I am not meek no matter what she likes to think). However:
- I am only 5 weeks into anti-depressants. I worry they are not stabilized and my new found perspective is not as great as it feels, though to be honest some good friends are telling me they think it is spot on
-Our sons are so young. I know the real damage is done by conflict and fighting and bitterness in the home, not necessarily the divorce, but all the same
-My wife's trust is hard to earn and easy to lose, and when you lose it, you are dead to her (charming) and I worry she might do something crazy like take the kids back to Australia, where she is from. That would be a huge disaster

Should I stick and see how counseling works out? How long should I give it? Should I just say stop all this and make a firm decision now? (to separate, while we can still bear to talk and arrange things together).


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Where The Rose Is Sown said:


> Hi,
> Here is my situation. I have my own thoughts and support from good friends and family. But I feel like, I need to try to think things through from all angles, and I figure, ask the internet!  What better way to get a whole spectrum of responses. So fire away, if you will (I joke here but my situation is miserable).
> 
> I have always struggled with my own self-confidence from way back in early school or even earlier; I tend to be very self-critical and this has been one of my lifelong battles.
> ...


All your questions are things only you can answer. You need to assert what YOU want and what YOU are ok/not OK with, and develop a time frame, and STICK TO IT. 

Your wife sounds like very black or white thinking, which is pretty telling of how she perceives the world around her. You have to decide if you can live with the way she is, or if your health and well-being are going to be paramount. You're not going to be a good parent if you're ill and off your rocker. 

Her behavior as you describe it, worries me,and much of it shares similarities to BPD. I'm not qualified to say for sure, but I can be more sure that she'll never change unless SHE wants to.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I'm not sure of which country you live in. If you are in the USA, what I suggest is that you see a lawyer to see what you have to do to prevent her from taking your children out of country. There are ways to do this.

When I divorced my son's father, I was concerned about him running off to Europe with our son. So my lawyer got the court to order that my husband give our son's passport to his lawyer who had to keep it locked in a safe. That way I was assured that my stbx could not run off with our son. Many countries have laws that allow for this.

You seem very wrapped up in your wife's behavior in a way that sounds unhealthy. It does not sound like the two of you do things together that you enjoy. When was the last time you two went out on a date together? 

You don't talk about your self life.... is there one? If so, how does she respond.

What it sounds like to me is that the two of you have lost your bond to each other, it's what we often call 'feeling in love'. When we are in love, our bodies produce and uptake a lot of feel good chemicals like dopamine and oxytocin. When we lose that connection the production and uptake of these fall off quite a bit. This leads to feelings of depression, not liking our partner/spouse, etc. Your wife's level of irritability really sounds like she's at this point.. and quite depressed herself. To me it sounds like this is where the two of you are now. 

I think you are at a point where you need to take care of yourself first. If there is any chance at all of saving your marriage, it has to start with you. Why? Have you ever flown on an airplane? When they give the talk about the oxygen mask, what is it that they say? If you are flying with a small child, put your own oxygen mask on first in an emergency. Then, after that, put a mask on your child. Why? Because if you try to put the mask on the child first you can pass out and you both will then die.

So... in that light, you need to take care of yourself. What are you doing for yourself. What activities are you doing out side of work and marriage? What friends do you spend time with (without your wife)? Do you exercise. I've read that exercise is as effective in helping depression as anti-depressants are. 

Are you getting any individual counseling? This is as important as taking anti-depressants and/or doing a lot of exercise to get your mind/body in better shape.

A book might help you, The New Behavioral Therapy 

You have got to get yourself in a good place first. You have only just started on the anti depressants. This is not a good time for you to decide to end your marriage. You need to give it more time. You need to give yourself more time to get out of the depression and figure out if you can save your marriage or if you need to divorce.


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## Where The Rose Is Sown (Oct 16, 2015)

I live in the USA. The idea of putting the kids' passports somewhere only accessible by both of us at once has occurred to me, but it also seems like that could precipitate problems in the first place.
You are right, we have lost the bond to each other. busy jobs and twin babies is like a pressure cooker, and we are far from family so support is either expensive or not available. We do get out on date nights but not too often and sometimes those are marred by some disagreement over something small or some kind of controlling behavior, so that is not ideal.
I like your mask analogy. It is how I feel about saving my kids from harm, but I am less sure (or not sure at all) about how I feel on saving our relationship, which is of course how I got to the point of saying 'enough, this bad behavior has to stop'.

On the meds - I think I didn't fully explain above, though I still take your point and as you can see it is a worry. At this point I feel like the confident person I used to be, I don't feel depressed at all. I feel full of life and energy, which is fantastic, literally something I thought might not be possible. And with that perspective and energy, I look back and see my gradual decline across a period corresponding exactly to to my marriage has 2 major components - my own tendency to be self-critical, which I have done some 4 years of CBT for and can catch myself at it, especially when in a good frame of mind, and then my wife piling on criticism and undermining me. This latter is what has brought things to a head.
I just started a new exercise regime. And, with the help of the meds I stopped comfort eating and dropped about 12lbs in 3 weeks. That is truly a sign of removing some misery.


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## Where The Rose Is Sown (Oct 16, 2015)

Oh, and, I am seeing a lawyer tomorrow, and in fact had seen the same one about a year ago at a particularly low point.


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## Where The Rose Is Sown (Oct 16, 2015)

Satya said:


> All your questions are things only you can answer. You need to assert what YOU want and what YOU are ok/not OK with, and develop a time frame, and STICK TO IT.
> 
> Your wife sounds like very black or white thinking, which is pretty telling of how she perceives the world around her. You have to decide if you can live with the way she is, or if your health and well-being are going to be paramount. You're not going to be a good parent if you're ill and off your rocker.


Thanks for your reply. Your first line is what I am saying above in terms of, I can just make a decision - right now that decision would be to separate if asked to call it this second. But we are at counseling and I think that is right to try, but she is not showing signs of changing, and has not changed across the last 9 years despite me identifying issues. I guess you would say I should also set my own timescale for counseling and seeing positive signs of change. That is good advice (that I made up that you gave me )


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

It sounds like your wife might need a different type of man to feel satisfied. I think it is good that you are going to counseling. Divorce may be a good option.


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## DanielleBennett (Oct 9, 2015)

I would probably continue on with the counseling for a bit longer to see if she is really serious about working on the relationship or not. A counselor will not always tell her that she is right and you are wrong, even if she tries Hard to manipulate the conversation her way. A counselor can usually see through the crap. Just be honest and hopefully she will be too in your sessions. If, after some time, things do not improve, then divorce may be in the future. If she really wants to be a jerk and take the kids back to Australia you can fight for joint custody at least and share the kids part time.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

Where The Rose Is Sown said:


> I am seeing a lawyer tomorrow.


WTRIS, I suggest that in addition to the lawyer and your MC, you also see a _psychologist_ -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and the kids likely are dealing with. To obtain a candid opinion, it is important to see a psych who has not treated or seen you W. This ensures that he is ethically bound to protect YOUR best interests, not hers.

I agree with *Satya* that the behaviors you describe -- i.e., temper tantrums, jealousy, controlling behavior, verbal abuse, and always being "The Victim" -- are some of the classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). Importantly, I'm not suggesting your W has full-blown BPD but, rather, that she might exhibit moderate to strong traits of it.

I caution that BPD is a "spectrum" disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are not difficult to spot because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as very controlling behavior, always being "The Victim," and rapid event-triggered mood flips.

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will NOT enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Only a professional can do that (i.e., determine whether her symptoms are so severe and persistent as to constitute full-blown BPD). The main reason for learning these red flags, then -- like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack -- is to help you decide whether there is sufficient reason to spend money seeking a professional opinion.



> Extra perspective of any kind needed.


I suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you read about BPD warning signs to see if they seem to apply. An easy place to start reading is my list of red flags at _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings any bells, I would be glad to join *Satya* and other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, WTRIS.


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## moonbeam78 (Oct 11, 2015)

I'll use a statement that pops up quite frequently here I gather, which is that your story is my story, differing only in timeline. I have been on meds (likely similar to the ones you have been prescribed) starting a few years after marriage. One thing you should know is that your sudden change of attitude, mood, and outlook is completely normal. And what your friends see is likely real, even if it tapers off (slightly!) as your body adjusts. The meds are working and while 5 weeks is not a lot of time, you are seeing results.

I have also seen that 30-odd list of signs of abuse and while I don't hit 20 with my spouse I'm damn near close. And it was through IC (and only through IC) that I was able to vocalize that. After hearing my story for many sessions, she actually smiled when I used that phrase, as if to say she was happy I was emerging from the fog. 

You **should** be worried for your mental health. I have been down some dark roads in the past (ones you do NOT want to travel) and have just recently questioned whether my spouse bears any responsibility. (Not blame mind you, just ownership). This past session (again it's as if wrote your post) my therapist said quite clearly that she has a strong suspicion a lot of my issues (including medications and mood) would be rectified by separation. She suggested a timeline, and I will do the same for you. Don't act rashly, but give your self a date (e.g. 1/1/16) and hold yourself accountable. If you don't see improvement , haven't made any effort to improve things with your wife, and/or you haven't made plans to move on, then it's on you. 

Also, don't be surprised if the MC is one-sided. I think once a spouse has been prescribed medications, such as yourself, that's a common outcome. We tried MC a few years back and our counselor essentially 'fired' herself. She said at our last session "I cannot work on your marriage until he fixes himself". Not to hijack your thread with my story, just know that you possibly seeing what I know too well.

We have two under 5, so they are the glue holding us together right now. And honestly I am quite interested in the advice you get from others. Just know you are not alone. 

And let the meds do their thing. Don't miss a dose! I can say with absolute honesty that my darkest days are the ones where I was feeling good the day before and let it slide. Stay with your pdoc regularly and get into IC if you haven't already. It's vital that you have a sounding board as you go through this.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

DanielleBennett said:


> I would probably continue on with the counseling for a bit longer to see if she is really serious about working on the relationship or not.


What you really need is INDIVIDUAL counseling, not marriage counseling. I dragged my dysfunctional husband to MC and, lo and behold...it did nothing. Because he was only going because I forced him to, not because he thought there was anything wrong with HIM. Or because he was unwilling to CONSIDER that there was anything wrong with him. Like your wife.

What helped me? Going to therapy BY MYSELF, and the antidepressants. Stay on them for at least another 5 months. ADs will 'prime' your own body's ability to produce the feel-good you need to go on and eventually you won't need the ADs anymore.

Anyway, in IC, ask your IC to help you come up with a PLAN for how to deal with her negativity and steps to take when she chews you out, makes fun of you, etc. There ARE things you can do to counter her bad effects. And as long as she's not mentally unhealthy, she WILL adjust to your new way of dealing with her, and the two of you can come up with a happier way to be together. And if your IC believes she's on the spectrum, your IC can help you come up with ways to mitigate it.

That said, there are also a lot of things you can be doing to change your marriage overall. Start with reading the book His Needs Her Needs. It will explain SO MUCH about why you're both unhappy. And give you concrete steps to take to improve the marriage. For instance, to STAY in love, you have to spend 10 to 15 hours a week together, away from the kids/chores/work/electronics. I know, how on earth can we manage that?

Well, you manage it by making the MARRIAGE a priority. Get up 15 minutes earlier so the two of you can have a cup of tea or coffee every morning before you both go to work. Join a babysitting co-op where you two babysit a couple other kids every other week and then YOU TWO get to go out every other week alone without the kids. I can help you come up with a bunch of other ways. But the bottomline is this: You MUST find ways to spend time together or you will end up divorced. And it would be a shame for that to happen - to your boys! - just because the two of you didn't work harder to fix the marriage first.


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## DanielleBennett (Oct 9, 2015)

turnera said:


> What you really need is INDIVIDUAL counseling, not marriage counseling. I dragged my dysfunctional husband to MC and, lo and behold...it did nothing. Because he was only going because I forced him to, not because he thought there was anything wrong with HIM. Or because he was unwilling to CONSIDER that there was anything wrong with him. Like your wife.
> 
> What helped me? Going to therapy BY MYSELF, and the antidepressants. Stay on them for at least another 5 months. ADs will 'prime' your own body's ability to produce the feel-good you need to go on and eventually you won't need the ADs anymore.
> 
> ...



The individual counseling is a really good point, especially if your partner is not willing to go to marriage counseling. It does work for some couples but not for others. Therapy will be good and so will an antidepressant. I wish you all of the best.


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