# The tables turn..



## lost_without_her (May 9, 2017)

Well, a lot of you were right. A friendship isn't going to work for my wife and me. I was really prepared for it, as long as she was considerate, but then something happened yesterday that leads me to believe that will never be the case. We had gotten to a fairly good place all considered. She text me and asked me if I wanted to go half on the divorce. Bare in mind, she left two weeks ago today. My son will arrive for his visit in a week. We talked it over a bit, and then I realized she's ready to proceed with the divorce this week! I thought without any doubt that she would at least let me get through this visit with him before putting me through the motions. 

I thought about it for hours. I tried to put myself in her place with this before reaching any conclusions. She told me she has no interest in being in a relationship anytime soon, so a slightly longer separation couldn't hurt anything while I work though this and try to stay strong for my son. 

So, I told her that leaving should be punishment enough, and if she wants out so fast, so bad, then just do it. I told her to do it as soon as possible. I told her I'd be cordial to her for my son, but that I didn't want to be friends just to torture myself. I want to make it as easy on her as possible, but that works both ways, and I just think this was wrong. 

I am angry, but I'm proud to say that I am managing it well. I respectfully and tactfully made my case and felt better after without any need to rage in order to get that relief. I think leaving should be punishment enough. I was terrible a lot of the time, but I was good to her too. I gave her the child she could never have, and that alone should be worth at least a little more consideration. Suddenly, it makes me wonder just what it all ever really meant to her and if she ever really did want me. 

So, a friendship is not going to work for me and my wife, I'm afraid. I am glad that I was mature enough to be willing to try. I wouldn't discourage others from trying. I wish it could have worked for us, but this is just a little too deep for me. Both of her previous marriages lasted around 1 year. Her divorces took longer than that! We were together for 11 years, married for almost 6, and she's trying to get us divorced in three weeks. I can no longer believe that someone who could not have any more respect than that in leaving could be the one for me either. I hate it, but there's my sign. Now you can say.. "I told you so." I still feel better for having tried. I hope others have better luck than me.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I thought you didn't have children together.

Am i mistaken?


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

You were number three. You lasted 11 years with her?

The others? Lasted one year.

Were the other suckers smarter than you? No, they were more realistic and more independent. They shook her off quicker. Their skin was thicker, her barbs did not "set" in as far with them.

Yes, she told you she dumped them, they were abusive, toxic, but now you know the truth. From her 30% is truth, the rest being fabricated truth.

What is the truth? She deserves to be alone. No man...save a desparate FWB sort of man.

Any women can be taken in small bites. Yes, they can. Just do not swallow.


----------



## lost_without_her (May 9, 2017)

lifeistooshort said:


> I thought you didn't have children together.
> 
> Am i mistaken?


I have a 14 year old son from a previous marriage. He's an amazing kid, and they are very close. She has been more of a mother to him than his own at times. They will remain in contact and stay close at his discretion.


----------



## lost_without_her (May 9, 2017)

SunCMars said:


> You were number three. You lasted 11 years with her?
> 
> The others? Lasted one year.
> 
> ...


You're probably right about that comparison and your assessment of me, but maybe a little harsh. I think I have thrown myself on the sword enough for my mistakes, but I won't forget them. It's @**holes like me who help to make women that way. We're all responsible for ourselves, but we're all humans who can benefit from a two way street. I don't think anyone deserves to be alone. I wish her the best, and I hope she figures out how to deal with her issues too and finds someone that makes it easier for her. I will find someone who won't betray me and trigger my anger.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

lost_without_her said:


> Well, a lot of you were right. A friendship isn't going to work for my wife and me. I was really prepared for it, as long as she was considerate, but then something happened yesterday that leads me to believe that will never be the case. We had gotten to a fairly good place all considered. She text me and asked me if I wanted to go half on the divorce. Bare in mind, she left two weeks ago today. My son will arrive for his visit in a week. We talked it over a bit, and then I realized she's ready to proceed with the divorce this week! I thought without any doubt that she would at least let me get through this visit with him before putting me through the motions.
> 
> I thought about it for hours. I tried to put myself in her place with this before reaching any conclusions. She told me she has no interest in being in a relationship anytime soon, so a slightly longer separation couldn't hurt anything while I work though this and try to stay strong for my son.
> 
> ...


Better get a lawyer and protect yourself.


----------



## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

lost_without_her said:


> Well, a lot of you were right. A friendship isn't going to work for my wife and me. I was really prepared for it, as long as she was considerate, but then something happened yesterday that leads me to believe that will never be the case. We had gotten to a fairly good place all considered. She text me and asked me if I wanted to go half on the divorce. Bare in mind, she left two weeks ago today. My son will arrive for his visit in a week. We talked it over a bit, and then I realized she's ready to proceed with the divorce this week! I thought without any doubt that she would at least let me get through this visit with him before putting me through the motions.
> 
> I thought about it for hours. I tried to put myself in her place with this before reaching any conclusions. She told me she has no interest in being in a relationship anytime soon, so a slightly longer separation couldn't hurt anything while I work though this and try to stay strong for my son.
> 
> ...


It is rough, I have done the many up and downs and back and forth, the emotions strain is huge especially when you really want to do the right thing and you just can't get through to them but like you say she is not the one for you, it is tough to accept I know as not sure where I am at currently with it, acceptance/denial can almost look the same at times.

The fast Divorce is doing you a huge favor try and accept the gift and get the best settlement you can. 

*Suddenly, it makes me wonder just what it all ever really meant to her and if she ever really did want me. * I have this same thought and its a struggle at times but you just have to keep the mindset of it is not a reflection of you it is a reflection of her, I love my W with everything I had I was 1000% committed and she cast me out like I was nothing, even had the nerve to tell me in casual conversation she has wasted 8% of her life being unhappy with me she got that precise in telling me how little i meant while still being friendly LOL. 

Trust me not a single person on here wants to say 'I told you so', all you will get are tough truths, support, advice and encouragement. We all wish you the best and keep posting here to vent, unload and share your progress.


----------



## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)




----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Apparently you're entering the anger stage of your grief. 

Look, you're actually doing DAMN GOOD!!! You don't see it yet.
Keep progressing. 

GUESS WHAT???? Every single person on this planet at present can be a complete ******* if our buttons are pushed. As you go through this, the stages of grief we all see, you're going to realize that this person was with you for 11 years. SHe knew exactly what buttons to push. She knew exactly what hurt you most. AND BY GOD she will use that against you in the divorce.

You can't be friends with her NOW. But you might in the future. For what reason? Kids? That's a good reason. But you will likely be so indifferent to her in the end, she will be more of an aquaintance than a friend. The truth is, you likely don't need friends like her.

We are all hating to see you have to go through this, but are here to talk if you need it. We all know how soul crushing and life changing this kind of thing is. The pain is more than some people can withstand. If you're out of good stock, you should be fine. I think by what I've read, you WILL be fine. But now is the time to lean on friends a little. THat's what they're there for. Pick a couple that are super close. Nobody really wants to hear the broken record of your divorce over and over.

We are hear, a good sounding board I think. It's helped me a lot. 
Good luck,
Keep paddling.


----------



## GuyInColorado (Dec 26, 2015)

She's probably talking marriage already with the boyfriend. She needs the divorce stamped pronto so she can go off to Hawaii and marry the man of her dreams.

You can use this to your advantage. Don't offer her 50%. Try 30% and promise her a quick and non-contested divorce. Tell her you know about the guy she's been cheating with, your PI has all of the evidence. See if she calls your bluff. I bet she folds.


----------



## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

lost_without_her said:


> You're probably right about that comparison and your assessment of me, but maybe a little harsh. I think I have thrown myself on the sword enough for my mistakes, but I won't forget them. It's @**holes like me who help to make women that way. We're all responsible for ourselves, but we're all humans who can benefit from a two way street. I don't think anyone deserves to be alone. I wish her the best, and I hope she figures out how to deal with her issues too and finds someone that makes it easier for her. I will find someone who won't betray me and trigger my anger.


OP,
I believe that you may be taking more credit than is your due. Were the two men before you *******s as well? Perhaps you were just more tolerant of her than most would be. You withstood more than they. I do not partake in games of random chance but if I were to gamble I would place a rather substantial wager on her already having someone in the wings so the faster she gets you gone the faster she can find true love. You are much better off whether you see that now or not.


----------



## lost_without_her (May 9, 2017)

I don't know if I'm taking too much credit. I really was bad. I just know that everyone has their limits. She did tend to push my buttons, but always with a smile and a friendly demeanor. She was always good at being innocent. Never very good at being honest about much of anything. I had been hung up on the fact that she told me how bad she wanted to just start over during our initial fight. I couldn't see how that could be erased in a day or even a couple of weeks. I knew it had to have been on her mind much longer than she has admitted. She finally told me yesterday that anytime she said that was only because she was just so afraid to be alone, and now she isn't. My anger was out of control and unfair, but her being dishonest and taking advantage didn't help. I told her I was taking myself off the chopping block. Thank you all for your support, tough love, and encouragement. Knowing her as well as I do, I think there probably is someone waiting in the wings. So much would make sense with that, but I don't really care. Fortunately, she doesn't want anything. We have a very small amount of mutual debt to settle, and she doesn't want to take anything away that will impact my son. She's taking no furniture, and nothing big. Just some basics. The divorce will be simple. I'm grateful for that. Thanks again all.


----------



## Rick Blaine (Mar 27, 2017)

I would put in your marriage settlement agreement that if the WW is with another man, then you get full custody of your son. Protect your child from the other man.


----------



## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Rick Blaine said:


> I would put in your marriage settlement agreement that if the WW is with another man, then you get full custody of your son. Protect your child from the other man.


Might want to read his posts.

They have no kids together..... the son is his.

She has no rights to him..... and he's 14 so even if she did he's old enough to speak.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

lost_without_her said:


> Knowing her as well as I do, *I think there probably is someone waiting in the wings*.


For me that is a good thing...it is.

I hate it when a women hangs a hand written sign on her front, A sign written displaying an arrow pointing down. 

A sign tied off just below the waist that says *"Out of Service".*

Once you stop oiling them things they are hard to re-start. 

They seize up. They get corroded. 

Once that happens, even the best spark plugs will not turn that furry thing over and start it up [and down].

You then need to squirt ethyl ether [Starting Gas] into the lips of her carburetor opening when she is sleeping.

When doing so, play her favorite love song just when the ether enters her ether-or opening.

Just sayin'


----------



## Keenwa (Oct 26, 2013)

lost_without_her said:


> You're probably right about that comparison and your assessment of me, but maybe a little harsh. I think I have thrown myself on the sword enough for my mistakes, but I won't forget them. It's @**holes like me who help to make women that way. We're all responsible for ourselves, but we're all humans who can benefit from a two way street. I don't think anyone deserves to be alone. I wish her the best, and I hope she figures out how to deal with her issues too and finds someone that makes it easier for her. I will find someone who won't betray me and trigger my anger.


I completely agree. Where love is concerned no one can be called an idiot. We are all doing our best here, some of us are more empathic than others so we stay longer, we all have problems and hang ups, everyone deserves love. You are not an @**hole. I think when we stay too long in relationships it's because that person has crossed a boundary that we have been moving around for years not willing to solidly claim. That's the great thing about these people in our lives, they teach us sometimes that we need to learn that lesson, or find that boundary we didn't have. WE all have deal breakers we know we won't tolerate and just because you might tolerate something I wouldn't doesn't make you a jerk it just means you have different hang ups and limits than I do. Maybe you wouldn't have tolerated my situation for as long as I did. Jeez we need to get off of our high horses. Plus when we post on this forum it's because we want help, we do it with open arms so people should not take that opportunity to punch us in the gut.


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

Rick Blaine said:


> I would put in your marriage settlement agreement that if the WW is with another man, then you get full custody of your son. Protect your child from the other man.


*Unless there is some suspicion that she or the OM may be either mentally or sexually abusing the 14 y.o., no family court judge in his right mind is about to order that!*


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

The more you describe your STBX, the more I am convinced that you are not nearly as bad as you are trying to convince TAM.

Not that you weren't abusive, but damn man...no honesty...at least two EA's...but YOU were abusive? 

Pot, meet kettle.


----------



## lost_without_her (May 9, 2017)

Keenwa said:


> I completely agree. Where love is concerned no one can be called an idiot. We are all doing our best here, some of us are more empathic than others so we stay longer, we all have problems and hang ups, everyone deserves love. You are not an @**hole. I think when we stay too long in relationships it's because that person has crossed a boundary that we have been moving around for years not willing to solidly claim. That's the great thing about these people in our lives, they teach us sometimes that we need to learn that lesson, or find that boundary we didn't have. WE all have deal breakers we know we won't tolerate and just because you might tolerate something I wouldn't doesn't make you a jerk it just means you have different hang ups and limits than I do. Maybe you wouldn't have tolerated my situation for as long as I did. Jeez we need to get off of our high horses. Plus when we post on this forum it's because we want help, we do it with open arms so people should not take that opportunity to punch us in the gut.


I really appreciate the vote of confidence. She really never did respect any boundaries, and that has always been a big source of the problems for me. I really did handle it like an @**hole, but it sure would have been easier to be nice if she would have shown me more respect. I don't ever want to forget how I was. I can never let anyone take my character away again. This forum, and all of you, have been amazing.I am grateful for this place!


----------



## lost_without_her (May 9, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> The more you describe your STBX, the more I am convinced that you are not nearly as bad as you are trying to convince TAM.
> 
> Not that you weren't abusive, but damn man...no honesty...at least two EA's...but YOU were abusive?
> 
> Pot, meet kettle.



She was definitely abusive too. I don't mean to play that down. I mostly just regret not being the bigger person. I just really wish I would have been, to know if things would have gone differently. In all honesty, it would have probably been better for us to part long ago. We both deserved a lot better. I just see her so differently now that she could do something so inconsiderate to my son like that. I really never could have imagined she would be this way. It reminded me that she was the same way with me, a lot. She rarely thinks about how her actions will affect anyone else. We were both abusive. So foolish.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

lost_without_her said:


> She was definitely abusive too. I don't mean to play that down. I mostly just regret not being the bigger person. I just really wish I would have been, to know if things would have gone differently. In all honesty, it would have probably been better for us to part long ago. We both deserved a lot better. I just see her so differently now that she could do something so inconsiderate to my son like that. I really never could have imagined she would be this way. It reminded me that she was the same way with me, a lot. She rarely thinks about how her actions will affect anyone else. We were both abusive. So foolish.


You need to avoid any sort of serious relationship for at least a year, brother. Get yourself right, and fix your picker.

As @jld likes to say, water seeks its own level. Take the necessary steps to make sure that you are high water.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

lost_without_her said:


> She was definitely abusive too. I don't mean to play that down. *I mostly just regret not being the bigger person.* I just really wish I would have been, to know if things would have gone differently. In all honesty, it would have probably been better for us to part long ago. We both deserved a lot better. I just see her so differently now that she could do something so inconsiderate to my son like that. I really never could have imagined she would be this way. It reminded me that she was the same way with me, a lot. She rarely thinks about how her actions will affect anyone else. We were both abusive. So foolish.


The problem is:

Being the bigger person often means being a Saint.

Or, a rug sweeper, a lackey, a masochist, a wimp, a TAM defined "Nyce Poi'sen". 

If my mind serves me right, the vast majority of those Saints were either ignored, laughed at, not understood....

Beaten....

Or Crucified.

Or forced to live in a sack belonging to a Red Dog....
....................................................................................................................

A bigger person is bigger for three reasons:

1) Other people recognize the fact.

2) Historians recognize the fact, after the fact.

3) Other people reject the fact and God recognizes the fact.


----------



## lost_without_her (May 9, 2017)

I'm not sure that a year will be long enough for me. I think the hardest part for me is going to be learning to trust someone again at the end of the day. I've spent 21 years with two very dishonest women. I'm not getting any younger though, so I hope that I can figure that one out in a reasonable amount of time. I really like that saying. I'm definitely aiming high with my self improvement. I'm fixing the things I'm most unhappy about myself first, and trying not to sweat the little things for now.

I like the way you've put that as well, Sun. I definitely felt like a doormat a lot dealing with the infidelity. I'm a passionate person, and I just get so attached. It didn't give me any logical reason to treat her like a doormat in return, and really should have just had the courage to realize that I deserved better. Everyone deserves better. Thanks all.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

You don't have to have a time limit on picking someone new, you need to learn to fall in love with a person of character and when they break boundaries, set consequences in a respectful, simple, non-passive way that is non-agressive as well. Just plain, and yet unbudging. It took a while for me to learn this. 
You also have to learn to listen to a woman, because they won't speak loudly to get your attention when something is seriously bothering them. The slighted negative you need to dig further and get to the bottom of what you're doing wrong and change it. They aren't loud and blunt with what they don't like, like men are.
Last of all, you're NOT all at fault. Your wife clearly has a problem. She's divorced 2 men in less than a year or so of marriage? C'mon. That's abnormal.
Own your ****, forgive youself, and MOVE ON. If you meet a wonderful person a month from now, take things slow and learn to be gentle but solid; forgiving when it's a mistake, but totally rigid when a woman breaks a boundary purposefully. 

I am having to practice what I preach, believe me.
What I'm saying is working for me lately. I'm more conscious of myself, how I am teaching people to treat me. Try it in your next relationship. Always remember people will be good to you if you are good to them and expect no less in return. 
It's easy when you are crazy about someone to let them walk over you and THEN get resentful. But it won't work that way.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

lost_without_her said:


> I'm not sure that a year will be long enough for me. I think the hardest part for me is going to be learning to trust someone again at the end of the day. I've spent 21 years with two very dishonest women. I'm not getting any younger though, so I hope that I can figure that one out in a reasonable amount of time. I really like that saying. I'm definitely aiming high with my self improvement. I'm fixing the things I'm most unhappy about myself first, and trying not to sweat the little things for now.
> 
> I like the way you've put that as well, Sun. I definitely felt like a doormat a lot dealing with the infidelity. I'm a passionate person, and I just get so attached. It didn't give me any logical reason to treat her like a doormat in return, and really should have just had the courage to realize that I deserved better. Everyone deserves better. Thanks all.


You've plotted a good path to follow. Now execute. In order to do that you'll have to cut her out of your life completely. Fix your picker.

Look at her history. This is her third failure. You can't fix her. Only she can.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> You need to avoid any sort of serious relationship for at least a year, brother. Get yourself right, and fix your picker.
> 
> As @jld likes to say, water seeks its own level. Take the necessary steps to make sure that you are high water.


Hi, lost. Sounds like you had quite a shock the other day. 

My husband asks why you are giving up so easily? 

Why not just keep working on yourself and see how things go?


----------



## lost_without_her (May 9, 2017)

jld said:


> Hi, lost. Sounds like you had quite a shock the other day.
> 
> My husband asks why you are giving up so easily?
> 
> Why not just keep working on yourself and see how things go?


JLD, you know in my heart I would give anything for another chance to just start over, but she's just being so cruel and inconsiderate about this. It's like she tried to get the divorce so fast my head is spinning, just days before I have to stay strong for my son. I just cannot imagine any reason why that was so necessary. She knows i'm dealing with my anger issues, and it was really a low blow. I just don't think I would really have much respect for myself at this point hanging out with her. She has always kind of eaten that up. She likes being desired, like we all do, but she soaks it up a little too much when she has no intention of returning it. I've been thinking back a lot to when we were first dating. That was when she was at her worst with the drinking. She had all kinds of texting buddies then. It always bothered me, and she initially had "quit" doing it when we became more serious, but it was a struggle even then. She debated for quite a while whether to even be with me. She decided to be with me, but then about a month later, she almost went back to her ex, and left my jaw dropped in the driveway having no clue that it was ever a thought in here mind. It was a brief thing, and she came back. Things were amazing from there on out until the infidelity. 

My emotions are really kind of just all over the place again for the moment, I guess. I think whoever was right when they said, I'm just entering the anger stage of my grieving process. I'm sure that down the road I might be open to the idea again maybe, but I really don't know if that's what's best for me. I don't think I'll ever feel right if she never is willing to address anything that bothers me. Literally not one time did she ever try to sit down and talk about our relationship when we weren't fighting. She'd wait until I was mad about something she did, and then she would brings things up out of left field that I had no clue she was upset about ever. She used it to direct attention away from whatever it was she had done that upset me. It was never fair.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

It's not a low blow per se. My money is on a boyfriend. She is not being deliberately cruel, but rather simply not considering how you feel at all. 

And, when you really think about it, she shouldn't. You two are divorcing.

Based on what you said about your marriage, this should be nothing new.

You would do well to try not to think about her actions, motivations, or anything else to do with her. It is an exercise in futility.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

OP you don't matter. Just like the two others before you. History is repeating.

Only a fool would continue to pursue this. 

You are better and smarter than that.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

The more you wrote about her, the more awful she sounds. She needs more than any one man can ever give. You know you should have never married a woman that "almost went back to her ex".

Reread what you wrote: it was great after that, until the infidelity.
Even if she got back with you, there would be more infidelity.

Make her a distant memory.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Your not happy about her timing of the divorce talk and it's thrown you for a curve but it shouldn't have. She has always chosen the easy way out. 

Now do yourself the biggest favor you can do yourself and file for divorce and cut a deal as quick as possible. Don't wait for her to file, don't drag out negotiations. Cut a deal and be done. The longer these situations go on the worse the deal gets generally.


----------



## lost_without_her (May 9, 2017)

farsidejunky said:


> It's not a low blow per se. My money is on a boyfriend. She is not being deliberately cruel, but rather simply not considering how you feel at all.
> 
> And, when you really think about it, she shouldn't. You two are divorcing.
> 
> ...


I almost agree with you. I'm about half convinced there's someone else, but no solid evidence. It definitely feels like it's just a matter of her not caring at all if she's rude to me or what she puts me through. Where I disagree is that she should have the decency to be respectful for the sake of my son, who she plans to stay in contact with and have visits with. If she can't have some basic consideration for me where it will impact him, then it's going to complicate my progress and my goal to be the father he needs in his life. She can either be decent and be in his life, or she can keep being completely inconsiderate and not care about what she does to me, but then I need her completely out of my life and my son's life too in order to move on under those circumstances. 

I wish I could not be impacted by her actions so much. I'm really trying. If it weren't for the extenuating circumstances with my son, I'd be happy to just not have to talk to her. Her cruel demeanor would help me move on faster. To this day, she still can't even face me. If she's so disgusted with me that we can't even have a friendly conversation for closure before signing the papers, I just don't feel that's how you salvage a working relationship for the sake of the kid. My first divorce was incredibly bitter, but even then we managed to sit down, talk about the bills, give some apologies, settle the insurance, visits for the kiddo... My current wife holds our insurance including dental and vision. She gets it through work. I'm self employed. Haven't even been able to get new insurance going. We just bought a car that she's taking. I had to buy another one, and money is tight for the next couple of months. 

I don't know, I just can't have her treating me like the plague if she's going to remain in any part of my life.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

lost_without_her said:


> I almost agree with you. I'm about half convinced there's someone else, but no solid evidence. It definitely feels like it's just a matter of her not caring at all if she's rude to me or what she puts me through. Where I disagree is that she should have the decency to be respectful for the sake of my son, who she plans to stay in contact with and have visits with. If she can't have some basic consideration for me where it will impact him, then it's going to complicate my progress and my goal to be the father he needs in his life. She can either be decent and be in his life, or she can keep being completely inconsiderate and not care about what she does to me, but then I need her completely out of my life and my son's life too in order to move on under those circumstances.
> 
> I wish I could not be impacted by her actions so much. I'm really trying. If it weren't for the extenuating circumstances with my son, I'd be happy to just not have to talk to her. Her cruel demeanor would help me move on faster. To this day, she still can't even face me. If she's so disgusted with me that we can't even have a friendly conversation for closure before signing the papers, I just don't feel that's how you salvage a working relationship for the sake of the kid. My first divorce was incredibly bitter, but even then we managed to sit down, talk about the bills, give some apologies, settle the insurance, visits for the kiddo... My current wife holds our insurance including dental and vision. She gets it through work. I'm self employed. Haven't even been able to get new insurance going. We just bought a car that she's taking. I had to buy another one, and money is tight for the next couple of months.
> 
> I don't know, I just can't have her treating me like the plague if she's going to remain in any part of my life.


She is showing you who she really is, brother.

You would do well to believe her.


----------



## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Why in gods name would you want your son involved with someone who shows you such disregard.

You are his father first and foremost. You really want to teach him that someone who acts like that should have a place in your lives? She's not his mother.

You need to rethink this not only for your son but yourself.


----------



## lost_without_her (May 9, 2017)

honcho said:


> Your not happy about her timing of the divorce talk and it's thrown you for a curve but it shouldn't have. She has always chosen the easy way out.
> 
> Now do yourself the biggest favor you can do yourself and file for divorce and cut a deal as quick as possible. Don't wait for her to file, don't drag out negotiations. Cut a deal and be done. The longer these situations go on the worse the deal gets generally.


I think that's all great advice, save for her keeping a relationship with my son and coming to get him, etc. I really just needed to get through this visit before she put me through it. He'll be here in five days. It's only been two weeks. And I just can't have her in my life at all if she's going to be nasty. I don't want to drag it out, but I just needed a reasonable amount of time to work through it and get through this visit. The divorce will be quick and simple not long after he goes back home. The future will depend on her attitude. The number one method for controlling your anger is to stay away from things that make you angry. I can't do that if she can't be decent. She'll have to go.


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

This kind of person you describe is not going to keep having any interaction with your son. Eventually, if not now, she will vanish from his life like a wisp of fog as the sun comes out, like she is with yours. 

You are basing all your thinking on how your mental image of her WAS (we all did it), not how she IS.

Look, to suddenly go this cold, and be in a rush to move out and divorce, geez, it's obvious she has a boyfriend. You even admit you e seen lots and lots of red flags.

Her mind is on one thing--- seeing the new guy as much as possible, and getting rid of you as fast as possible. Can't you feel her anxiousness to rush this through? Use that to your advantage. From what you describe of her, you will eventually want to hug the guy for taking her crazy ass off your hands.

You are emotionally traumatized and can't see things clearly right now. Just file and get the paperwork going and then wait until it all plays out. She will be with another guy quickly. But never fear, you will also get to see him go through the same **** with her that you went through. Like I said, ghost HER and she will undoubtedly start interacting with you again as soon as the new has worn off the new man in her life--if you let her. It's clearly her M.O.
Serial cheater all the way. 
I honestly believe she's been cheating your whole marriage and you just didn't see it.

Now is the time to trade up for a sweeter, faster, sexier, funnier, prettier, more loyal model. This is not the death sentence you perceive NOW. Wake up from the Knockout blow you've received and enjoy your newly given opportunity to find a much, much, better lady to occupy your free time with.
It's not as bad as it seems now.
Not at all. Perception is eveeything.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

lost_without_her said:


> The future will depend on her attitude.


No the future depends on your attitude not hers. Legally she as zero inut on your son and most likely a year from now her involvement in his life will most likely be a birthday card and Christmas present and that's it. 

She isn't going to be in your life.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

lost_without_her said:


> I think that's all great advice, *save for her keeping a relationship with my son and coming to get him, etc.* I really just needed to get through this visit before she put me through it. He'll be here in five days. It's only been two weeks. And I just can't have her in my life at all if she's going to be nasty. I don't want to drag it out, but I just needed a reasonable amount of time to work through it and get through this visit. The divorce will be quick and simple not long after he goes back home. The future will depend on her attitude. The number one method for controlling your anger is to stay away from things that make you angry. I can't do that if she can't be decent. She'll have to go.


Get the divorce.

The son can tell her to buzz off if he chooses.

Me? After the divorce, I would move three states over....

It is your biological son, what can she do?

When you move, you tell her you got a great job offer, not that you are trying to shake off her scent.....like a dog after a skunk encounter!

She jerked her barbs out of your skin...leaving a wound that is slow to heal.

Jerk your son out of her grasp. That will leave a gaping wound in her heart.

God, I can be so dang mean! Whatever....beat feet later.


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Evinrude58 said:


> This kind of person you describe is not going to keep having any interaction with your son. Eventually, if not now, she will vanish from his life like a wisp of fog as the sun comes out, like she is with yours.
> 
> You are basing all your thinking on how your mental image of her WAS (we all did it), not how she IS.
> 
> ...


Damn, this is so true.

I would never claim to speak for Brother Honcho, but he SO wishes some guy would have taken his BSC wife off his hands years ago.


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

LWH..... One question.....WHY? Why in the name of day games at Wrigley Field would you ever want

her back? Her track record is horrendous, she had 2 EAs that you KNOW of, and showed you a 

continuous action of cruelty. Have you stuck with her behavior because you are afraid once

you are D, there will not be anyone respectable out there who would want you? Fear talking...

I am in my mid-40s, my D was five years ago this Christmas. There are tons of available women out

there... you just have to know how to spot crazy quickly and move along. Your W has a pattern of erratic 

and cruel behavior. How do you predict future behavior.... by their past behavior.

She has an OM.... bet your farm and mine too while you're at it. She will have little or zero interest 

in your son. Her time will be spend seducing the OM at light speed in hopes he will fall head over

heels in love with her before her BSC behavior begins to surface. She is the type who can only 

keep her "bandages" on for a very short time.


----------



## lost_without_her (May 9, 2017)

Chuck71 said:


> LWH..... One question.....WHY? Why in the name of day games at Wrigley Field would you ever want
> 
> her back? Her track record is horrendous, she had 2 EAs that you KNOW of, and showed you a
> 
> ...


Chuck, I have been asking myself that question over and over for the last 4 or 5 days. I don't know for sure. I think that both of my marriages really killed my faith in people. I really was deeply hurt every time I got cheated on. Like, why me? My mother cheated on my father and they divorced when I was 3. I didn't understand much until later. That's when my anger first began, untreated. My dad wasn't around. I was raised by my mother and sister. We saw my dad every other weekend. The one thing that I decided was that I HATE cheating. My first wife cheated on me while we were dating. So I go and marry her. Why did I do that? Honestly and loyalty mean everything to me. You wouldn't think so. 

I think I have really always felt like I was not good enough, and that I couldn't do better. Believe it or not, there were a lot of ways that we were really perfect together. The sex was amazing when we were having it. She is very attractive. We never really got tired of being around each other. I guess in a lot of ways though, it was more of a familial relationship to her, and she benefited from the good company. My confidence has been shattered a lot of times, and I tried to fix that by creating more problems. I think I married them both because they would have me "forever." I tell myself I shouldn't want her back constantly. I know I shouldn't. My heart still wants her back, and it's going to be hard as hell to stop that. I am definitely going to have to have the tools to choose more wisely in the future.


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

lost_without_her said:


> Chuck, I have been asking myself that question over and over for the last 4 or 5 days. I don't know for sure. I think that both of my marriages really killed my faith in people. I really was deeply hurt every time I got cheated on. Like, why me? My mother cheated on my father and they divorced when I was 3. I didn't understand much until later. That's when my anger first began, untreated. My dad wasn't around. I was raised by my mother and sister. We saw my dad every other weekend. The one thing that I decided was that I HATE cheating. My first wife cheated on me while we were dating. So I go and marry her. Why did I do that? Honestly and loyalty mean everything to me. You wouldn't think so.
> 
> I think I have really always felt like I was not good enough, and that I couldn't do better. Believe it or not, there were a lot of ways that we were really perfect together. The sex was amazing when we were having it. She is very attractive. We never really got tired of being around each other. I guess in a lot of ways though, it was more of a familial relationship to her, and she benefited from the good company. My confidence has been shattered a lot of times, and I tried to fix that by creating more problems. I think I married them both because they would have me "forever." I tell myself I shouldn't want her back constantly. I know I shouldn't. My heart still wants her back, and it's going to be hard as hell to stop that. I am definitely going to have to have the tools to choose more wisely in the future.


The only constant in your dysfunctional relationships is you.

It shouldn't kill your faith in marriage.

It should encourage you to dig in on self-improvement.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

lost_without_her said:


> Chuck, I have been asking myself that question over and over for the last 4 or 5 days. I don't know for sure. I think that both of my marriages really killed my faith in people. I really was deeply hurt every time I got cheated on. Like, why me? My mother cheated on my father and they divorced when I was 3. I didn't understand much until later. That's when my anger first began, untreated. My dad wasn't around. I was raised by my mother and sister. We saw my dad every other weekend. The one thing that I decided was that I HATE cheating. My first wife cheated on me while we were dating. So I go and marry her. Why did I do that? Honestly and loyalty mean everything to me. You wouldn't think so.
> 
> I think I have really always felt like I was not good enough, and that I couldn't do better. Believe it or not, there were a lot of ways that we were really perfect together. The sex was amazing when we were having it. She is very attractive. We never really got tired of being around each other. I guess in a lot of ways though, it was more of a familial relationship to her, and she benefited from the good company. My confidence has been shattered a lot of times, and I tried to fix that by creating more problems. I think I married them both because they would have me "forever." I tell myself I shouldn't want her back constantly. I know I shouldn't. My heart still wants her back, and it's going to be hard as hell to stop that. I am definitely going to have to have the tools to choose more wisely in the future.


So you mother cheated, and you have ended up with two cheaters? This leads me to believe that your mother modeled some bad behavior that you have assumed it normal female behavior but is actually the type that leads to cheating. You probably don't recognize it because it is what you grew up around. You may even feel safe around it or attracted to it. To the type of women who will cheat, after all this is what was normal to you and who your primary female relationship was with for most of your childhood. You should look into that.


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

sokillme said:


> So you mother cheated, and you have ended up with two cheaters? This leads me to believe that your mother modeled some bad behavior that you have assumed it normal female behavior but is actually the type that leads to cheating. You probably don't recognize it because it is what you grew up around. You may even feel safe around it or attracted to it. To the type of women who will cheat, after all this is what was normal to you and who your primary female relationship was with for most of your childhood. You should look into that.


If behavior seems familiar, it's not unusual to be attracted to it.

I would imagine the behavior exhibited by your wives and your mother is similar.

Would you say that's true?


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

lost_without_her said:


> I *think I have really always felt like I was not good enough, and that I couldn't do better. *Believe it or not, there were a lot of ways that we were really perfect together. The sex was amazing when we were having it.


This is what you need to work on and get to the root cause. One of the reasons I got married way back when to crazy girl is because I felt I couldn't do better even though my brain knew I could. You two were perfect together but really you two fed each other's dysfunction which makes the good times great and the bad times worse and sex always seems to be the hook which keep's the heart overriding your brain. Lord knows I overlooked a lot of "quirks" because the sex was constant and amazing.....


----------



## lost_without_her (May 9, 2017)

I am definitely dedicated to self-improvement at this point. I'm changing the things I don't like about me, and I think that is going to be the biggest key to my success. Sokillme, I sure hope I'm not just instinctively attracted to the type. How does one begin to fix that?

I had to really think a lot on that question, Return. I only ever saw my mom with my dad and then the man that she cheated on him with. The affair lasted years, and my mother dated the man for 16 years after the divorce. I despised that man. He wasn't even good to her, and he didn't like me either. He was also married, and he didn't want to leave his wife and lose half of his money and possessions. Once I picked up the house phone (back in the party line days) and I heard my mother crying hysterically talking to the man. When they hung up, I called him back and let him have it. I think I was maybe 10 or 11. I told him he couldn't buy love and never to talk to my mom again. It felt like he made it to my house before I even got the phone back on the hook. He screeched in our driveway and exited his car red as an apple with a billy club in his hand ready to teach me a lesson. He was already a big man, and that club sent me hiding absolutely scared for my life. My mom kicked him out of the house. They dated for many years after that, until their dysfunction caught up with them eventually. Now she's alone, and he married someone else. 

I guess that I really resented that she would put such a bad man before her children. There were a lot of things I resented my mother for. She had a gambling problem. She used to sit at the Moose every other week when our child support check came. She would put 20 after 20 in the cherry machine. We went hungry a lot. I never had the things I needed. My shoes always had holes until I was old enough to start working and buying my own. We never really got along. We have had a much better relationship in the last 5 or 6 years, but I just never felt that she liked me very much. We disagree on most things. I guess her actions were similar in some ways. I'd hate to think that it has been instilled in me to seek unfaithful women. I've always felt like I wanted to be sure I felt secure with the person I was with, but maybe that's not really what was going on. 

Honcho, I'd say that's fairly accurate. It was definitely a series of extreme highs and lows, not much balance. At some point, she stopped coming on to me in our relationship. I had to always be the one to initiate it. I felt undesirable. A lot of my anger stems from that, I think. She was always willing to have sex most any time I wanted to, but just never would be more proactive about it no matter how many times I begged or got upset about it. That is one things that I think has really contributed a lot to my insecurity and low self-worth. I'm definitely focused on repairing those things, and I think I'm making some good progress towards those goals. One day at a time.


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

lost_without_her said:


> Chuck, I have been asking myself that question over and over for the last 4 or 5 days. I don't know for sure. I think that both of my marriages really killed my faith in people. I really was deeply hurt every time I got cheated on. Like, why me? My mother cheated on my father and they divorced when I was 3. I didn't understand much until later. That's when my anger first began, untreated. My dad wasn't around. I was raised by my mother and sister. We saw my dad every other weekend. The one thing that I decided was that I HATE cheating. My first wife cheated on me while we were dating. So I go and marry her. Why did I do that? Honestly and loyalty mean everything to me. You wouldn't think so.
> 
> *....You placed WAY too much importance on being emotionally dependent on them. YOU are responsible for your happiness. THEY are responsible for THEIR happiness, not you.
> You M your 1st W because you wanted to avoid the pain.
> ...


You did not work on self-improvement and.... well, here you are again, getting a D.

Maybe NOW you will reflect and find out why you continue to pick the wrong person. You need to unearth

what your POS tendencies are (everyone has them) and OWN them. Your W is in the fog and complete

denial. She is blameshifting and re-writing history to block out the guilt she feels for cheating on you.

There is no healthy chance with her until she owns her POS tendencies. And she is light years

away from that. File for D.... have her served. Trust me... you will get a reaction. When you do....

be cool, firm, dispassionate. It's a business deal now.


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

sokillme said:


> So you mother cheated, and you have ended up with two cheaters? This leads me to believe that your mother modeled some bad behavior that you have assumed it normal female behavior but is actually the type that leads to cheating. You probably don't recognize it because it is what you grew up around. You may even feel safe around it or attracted to it. To the type of women who will cheat, after all this is what was normal to you and who your primary female relationship was with for most of your childhood. You should look into that.


And was your dad not around by his own actions? Your parents D back in a time when fathers got every

other weekend and a three hour meet on a Thursday evening in Mike's Pizza Parlor. Pretty damn hard 

to be a parent five days a month. After your parents D... how did your mom talk about your dad

while you were growing up? I'm not sure yet but I have a strong feeling your mom did to you

what my 2nd love's (college sweetheart) mom did to her.


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

lost_without_her said:


> I am definitely dedicated to self-improvement at this point. I'm changing the things I don't like about me, and I think that is going to be the biggest key to my success. Sokillme, I sure hope I'm not just instinctively attracted to the type. How does one begin to fix that?
> 
> I had to really think a lot on that question, Return. I only ever saw my mom with my dad and then the man that she cheated on him with. The affair lasted years, and my mother dated the man for 16 years after the divorce. I despised that man. He wasn't even good to her, and he didn't like me either. He was also married, and he didn't want to leave his wife and lose half of his money and possessions. Once I picked up the house phone (back in the party line days) and I heard my mother crying hysterically talking to the man. When they hung up, I called him back and let him have it. I think I was maybe 10 or 11. I told him he couldn't buy love and never to talk to my mom again. It felt like he made it to my house before I even got the phone back on the hook. He screeched in our driveway and exited his car red as an apple with a billy club in his hand ready to teach me a lesson. He was already a big man, and that club sent me hiding absolutely scared for my life. My mom kicked him out of the house. They dated for many years after that, until their dysfunction caught up with them eventually. Now she's alone, and he married someone else.
> 
> ...


You married them because they reminded you of your mother. I strongly recommend you seek

out IC... you have really deep issues. Your insecurities and low self esteem led to your co-dependence

upon your wives. You could not make yourself happy, only they could. Both of your wives were

also Co-D. They can spot men like you a mile away. They vagina bomb you until you fall in 

love..... then they slowly pull away. Remember.... your son watches the type of women you pick.

He will grow up and pick women.... just as his dad did. BTW.... I don't know if I could ever be close 

to my mother if she did what yours did.


----------



## lost_without_her (May 9, 2017)

Chuck, it seems like you really know your stuff. I agree completely. I will take all of that into heavy consideration. I have been thinking of just filing and getting it over with. My dad left as soon as he found out about the affair, and it really was just a different time then. The gender roles were much different, and a lot our fathers didn’t take responsibility. I loved him to death. He died when I was 24. He meant well, and lived his life for my sister and I, but we didn’t even get that spare Thursday. We did hit Pizza Hut every Friday when we went. The older we got, the less we got to see him as we became obligated to sports and things like that. 

My sister and I worshiped my dad, and my mom felt like the bad guy. Let’s face it, she was. I lost respect for her. I wasn’t interested in holding a grudge with her, but she was a difficult person. We haven’t been close since I was very little. I don’t think I could ever feel a real bond with her, but we tolerate each other a lot better. She’s been there for me through this ordeal. Still, she was the one who always put us in the middle… “you’re dad is just so great, and I’m nothing.” Her mom once told me at a pretty young age that my dad was just “Lazy.” And honestly, he was. Sort of. He had a 30 year struggle with diabetes. The man’s favorite thing in the world was to fall asleep in the recliner every chance he got. Best I can tell with what I know today, they really didn’t have a relationship. I understand how that could drive someone away, but it didn’t excuse an affair. I know my mother must be the source of a lot of my problems. 

Wow, that’s really deep. I really hate to think that I’ve actually been attracted to women like my mother. I’ve always told myself that would be the last kind of person I would want to spend my life with. Her personality is completely opposite of my mother’s, but when I really think about it, both of my wives shared some similar traits. My first wife was a lot more like my mother. Wow, I don’t quite know how to process that. 

Chuck, you are so insightful. I really appreciate your advice. Thank you so much for sharing that with me.


----------



## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

lost_without_her said:


> I am definitely dedicated to self-improvement at this point. I'm changing the things I don't like about me, and I think that is going to be the biggest key to my success. Sokillme, I sure hope I'm not just instinctively attracted to the type. How does one begin to fix that?


You need to identify the incorrect thinking, but that is why you go to IC because they will be able to tell you that you are not thinking correctly about something. They will be able to tell you for instance (this may not be your issue but just for example purposes) that your SO being jealous all the time is not coming from a place of intense love, but from a place of deep insecurity. Someone who grew up with that kind of behavior modeled in their life may just assume, or believe because that is what they were taught that that is a normal way that love is. They may think that it shows how intensely they love someone. So they may choose a person who behaves like this thinking, "look how intensely they love me", when the truth is that person they are deeply insecure and probably vulnerable to cheating themselves or some other kind of relational dysfunction. Again this may not be you but this is how it works.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Read "Hold Me Tight" by Dr. Sue Johnson. It will explain why you have chosen the partners you have.


----------



## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Read "Hold Me Tight" by Dr. Sue Johnson. It will explain why you have chosen the partners you have.


Hey, are you reading it now, far?

If you are, or when you have finished, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on it.


----------



## MovingForward (Jan 19, 2017)

jld said:


> Hey, are you reading it now, far?
> 
> If you are, or when you have finished, it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on it.


I read this a few times over when i was still trying to save my marriage was recommended by my IC, great book and so many of the 'Demon Dialogues' myself and my STBXW found ourselves in.


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Sounds quite a bit like the Drama Triangle


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

lost_without_her said:


> Chuck, it seems like you really know your stuff. I agree completely. I will take all of that into heavy consideration. I have been thinking of just filing and getting it over with. My dad left as soon as he found out about the affair, and it really was just a different time then. The *gender roles were much different, and a lot our fathers didn’t take responsibility*. I loved him to death. He died when I was 24. He meant well, and lived his life for my sister and I, but we didn’t even get that spare Thursday. We did hit Pizza Hut every Friday when we went. The older we got, the less we got to see him as we became obligated to sports and things like that.
> 
> 
> *Or were they even given a chance to.*
> ...


My pop died when I was 24.... that was 21 years ago. He was a bad parent but a master teacher, Let's just say... most of the advice I give here, he shared with me many years ago. About what you were told about your dad... how much did you witness first hand and how much was beauty shop gossip? Just sayin'

I often hear that people are considered lazy but come to find out, have diabetes. How old was he when he died.... if you say 55, I will crap myself. Did you ever sit down with your pop and have a "let's get this out in the open" talk? 

Pop and I had the -I talk, you listen- talks when I was younger. When I was in my 20s... it more became a back and forth. He!! near the end, I even taught him a few things..... but nowhere near what he taught me. Pop grew up in the 1950s... men do not show any emotion, stone cold, ice cold. There's a time and place for that but not every F'ing day. Very few times did he show emotion. But sometimes he didn't have to, I just knew.... and that was enough for me.

I knew I had a great mom until I came to TAM, then I realized I had a kick-arse super great mom. We were close until her final year, dementia, but I always remember, this ain't who your momma really is. She passed about six months ago. I would send her roses on Mother's Day but the card is where I got her. I'm a writer, just not back then 'as much' but I would write stuff like -I can have a thousand g/f's but I will only have one mom- Talk about water works... LOL

Y'know.... it's not even too late with your mom.... but.... you need to see an IC first to get your end in order first. Mom was blunt, to the point... would cuss me if needed and sometimes when it wasn't needed LOL but... I'd love to hear her cuss me.... one more time. In all fairness... growing up I was a complete and total hellion, I admit it. Picture a super hyper, hi IQ kid... bored... with one helluva imagination. Yeah... 8>)


----------



## lost_without_her (May 9, 2017)

Jesus... Chuck, your post has brought me to tears my friend. My "pops" was 56 when he died. He was born in '48. He died in '04. I have a lot to say in response to your words, but I'll be damned if I didn't have to put my dog down today, and I am just a damn mess right now. I don't feel like I can take much more loss, but I will definitely be back to respond to what you've just said. Thank you whole heartedly.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

lost_without_her said:


> Chuck, it seems like you really know your stuff. I agree completely. I will take all of that into heavy consideration. I have been thinking of just filing and getting it over with. My dad left as soon as he found out about the affair, and it really was just a different time then. The gender roles were much different, and a lot our fathers didn’t take responsibility. I loved him to death. He died when I was 24. He meant well, and lived his life for my sister and I, but we didn’t even get that spare Thursday. We did hit Pizza Hut every Friday when we went. The older we got, the less we got to see him as we became obligated to sports and things like that.
> 
> My sister and I worshiped my dad, and my mom felt like the bad guy. Let’s face it, she was. I lost respect for her. I wasn’t interested in holding a grudge with her, but she was a difficult person. We haven’t been close since I was very little. I don’t think I could ever feel a real bond with her, but we tolerate each other a lot better. She’s been there for me through this ordeal. Still, she was the one who always put us in the middle… “you’re dad is just so great, and I’m nothing.” Her mom once told me at a pretty young age that my dad was just “Lazy.” And honestly, he was. Sort of. He had a 30 year struggle with diabetes. The man’s favorite thing in the world was to fall asleep in the recliner every chance he got. Best I can tell with what I know today, they really didn’t have a relationship. I understand how that could drive someone away, but it didn’t excuse an affair. I know my mother must be the source of a lot of my problems.
> 
> ...


My mom is a full time alcoholic who told me every day she hated me for being born because it ruined her perfect life she wanted. She cheated on my dad many times and was just generally a lousy mom on her best days. The problem you got just as I've experienced is you've no idea what "normal" is because you haven't experienced it. 

People used to ask me all the time how I could live/deal with crazy girl and I would always say the same thing, she was a walk in the park compared to my mom. But all I did was pick a different variety of crazy. You've done the same. 

Sorry to hear about your dog, I had one that passed about a month after the meltdown and it really played havoc with my emotions because of my emotional state at the time. You'll get thru this, don't focus on the loss but remember the good memories right now.


----------



## lost_without_her (May 9, 2017)

honcho said:


> My mom is a full time alcoholic who told me every day she hated me for being born because it ruined her perfect life she wanted. She cheated on my dad many times and was just generally a lousy mom on her best days. The problem you got just as I've experienced is you've no idea what "normal" is because you haven't experienced it.
> 
> People used to ask me all the time how I could live/deal with crazy girl and I would always say the same thing, she was a walk in the park compared to my mom. But all I did was pick a different variety of crazy. You've done the same.
> 
> Sorry to hear about your dog, I had one that passed about a month after the meltdown and it really played havoc with my emotions because of my emotional state at the time. You'll get thru this, don't focus on the loss but remember the good memories right now.



More tears, Honcho... I'm so weak right now. I'm sorry you dealt with that. That's a lot more neglect than I sustained, and I can't quite imagine. If you can take that, then I can take this. Sure sucks though. My dog just amplifies the whole thing. He was a really special English Bulldog. Effing loved that dog.. have him tattooed on my arm and all that... It sucks because of the timing.. but it's extra painful because of our whole situation.. for one, that dog loved her to death.. He was grieving with me. She begged me months ago to take him to the vet, but I was too concerned about our finances with the big move to a new city/state. He was at the average age of death for bulldogs. I couldn't justify the expense, but he was really priceless. I was just torn, because of the visit with my son. He will be here tomorrow. Due to the separation / divorce, I had to save every dime I had. I had to get a reliable car.We had just got a loan to get her one. I had to get a second loan just to make sure I could have a reliable car to take him around Denver, which requires a reliable car. I just hate it all. I'm really a Rottweiler guy. I just lost my third one before I came here 10 months ago. I'm so tired of losing ****. S%*^/////1====


----------



## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

lost_without_her said:


> Chuck, it seems like you really know your stuff. I agree completely. I will take all of that into heavy consideration. I have been thinking of just filing and getting it over with. My dad left as soon as he found out about the affair, and it really was just a different time then. The gender roles were much different, and a lot our fathers didn’t take responsibility. I loved him to death. He died when I was 24. He meant well, and lived his life for my sister and I, but we didn’t even get that spare Thursday. We did hit Pizza Hut every Friday when we went. The older we got, the less we got to see him as we became obligated to sports and things like that.
> 
> My sister and I worshiped my dad, and my mom felt like the bad guy. Let’s face it, she was. I lost respect for her. I wasn’t interested in holding a grudge with her, but she was a difficult person. We haven’t been close since I was very little. I don’t think I could ever feel a real bond with her, but we tolerate each other a lot better. She’s been there for me through this ordeal. Still, she was the one who always put us in the middle… “you’re dad is just so great, and I’m nothing.” Her mom once told me at a pretty young age that my dad was just “Lazy.” And honestly, he was. Sort of. He had a 30 year struggle with diabetes. The man’s favorite thing in the world was to fall asleep in the recliner every chance he got. Best I can tell with what I know today, they really didn’t have a relationship. I understand how that could drive someone away, but it didn’t excuse an affair. I know my mother must be the source of a lot of my problems.
> 
> ...


Chuck is both insightful and blunt. Always worth listening to his advice. Pretty straightforward, even when it's not what you want to hear...


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

lost_without_her said:


> Jesus... Chuck, your post has brought me to tears my friend. My "pops" was 56 when he died. He was born in '48. He died in '04. I have a lot to say in response to your words, but I'll be damned if I didn't have to put my dog down today, and I am just a damn mess right now. I don't feel like I can take much more loss, but I will definitely be back to respond to what you've just said. Thank you whole heartedly.


Mine was 55.... died in '96. Pop was a '41 he!!-raiser. His dad died at 51. Yeah... I think about that a lot. Course pop's pop was a "professional drinker," wasn't ever mean, just drank for weeks at a time. Mom told me years later they tried to take him to detox several times. Funny he rarely drank until WW2. Long story short... he returned from Europe with a vice.... the bottle.

Pop always had issues with the bottle. I'm sure it was fun to party and drink in the 1960s but once you get to about 25 (back then), you cut back a lot on drinking, settle down, start a family. That pop did... except for the drinking. Add to the fact he tried every drug out there. Pretty much the reason why he knew so much of what I was getting into when I was a teen. He was very blunt about drugs, this will do this.... this will have you hooked within a weekend, etc. -Son... if you limit it to just booze and pot, you can easily regulate it, but if you hit the pipe, needle, or snort the white powder.... you may as well sell your soul-

He was right. I was tempted by the white powder.... but I knew where that road led. Friends did... they walked the road pop warned. A few times in my life I found myself dancing with the bottle. I reflected on how pop acted and would back away from it long enough to know, I can dance with it but I don't take it to bed.

I grew up with a black Lab.....3rd grade through college. If you want to compare dogs and my love life, he was "The One." I thought he would be around at my wedding, my retirement, etc. I still miss him over 20 years later. Had a pound puppy from '02..... H57... he was like a stoner at a DeadHead concert, didn't care about anything but grease from hamburger meat and tuna. He wondered off in '15 and never came back. He wasn't like the Lab, but he was a semi-close 2nd.


----------



## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

lost_without_her said:


> ” Her mom once told me at a pretty young age that my dad was just “Lazy.” And honestly, he was. Sort of.* He had a 30 year struggle with diabetes.* The man’s favorite thing in the world was *to fall asleep in the recliner every chance he got.* Best I can tell with what I know today, they really didn’t have a relationship. I understand how that could drive someone away, but it didn’t excuse an affair. I know my mother must be the source of a lot of my problems.


Diabetes in one of the hardest disease to live with. Especially in those days when not a lot was known about it. Nowadays, they have automatic insulin pumps, painless blood sugar testers.

Unmanaged diabetes cause lifelong extreme fatigue and erectile dysfunction [big time]. Actually, "little" time for men...:frown2:

Your father did not keep his wife sexually, emotionally satisfied for sad reasons, legitimate reasons. Yes, she should have divorced first, then start looking for a virile man.


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

SunCMars said:


> Diabetes in one of the hardest disease to live with. Especially in those days when not a lot was known about it. Nowadays, they have automatic insulin pumps, painless blood sugar testers.
> 
> Unmanaged diabetes cause lifelong extreme fatigue and erectile dysfunction [big time]. Actually, "little" time for men...:frown2:
> 
> Your father did not keep his wife sexually, emotionally satisfied for sad reasons, legitimate reasons. Yes, she should have divorced first, then start looking for a virile man.


My mom had lupus back when Dr.s had no freaking clue what it was. She had an episode in the early

1960s and laid in bed for days. That was NOT mom back in her late teens and early 20s.

She had another in 1988. It lasted nearly a full year. To this day I will argue stress is a major 

catalyst of lupus. Her mother just died and I had the botched surgery which should have kept me

from walking again unless with cane, a cognition of a 9 / 10 year old kid, and be completely 

dependent upon my parents for day-to-day living. That would stress TLS out of any parent


----------



## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

There is NOTHING like a black lab........So many great memories


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

Betrayedone said:


> There is NOTHING like a black lab........So many great memories


Mine's a black lab pit bull hybrid. Perfect dog.


----------



## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

lost_without_her said:


> I don't think anyone deserves to be alone.


I'm curious about this statement. How important is NOT being alone to you?


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

turnera said:


> I'm curious about this statement. How important is NOT being alone to you?


There are far worse things than being alone. Being with an abusive partner is one.


----------



## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

ReturntoZero said:


> There are far worse things than being alone. Being with an abusive partner is one.


As is replacing windows in the garage.....


----------

