# 95% sure my HD frustrations have finally blown it. Limbo ahead



## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

I thought I had it turning around for keeps but the speed of improvement was never quite enough for me even if it was mostly very encouraging so I relied on that hope thing and trending evidence and was encouraged by incremental improvement and giant strides on occasion but my resentments and desperation and frustration that seems so completely unnecessary were she to just "snap out of it" once and for all have increasingly taken over and caused my ever increasing bad behavior like impatience, compliant and snarkiness toward my wife. 

The price kept increasing over time and the results didn't keep up.

Having amped up the pressure on my LD wife as her interest required an ever increasing investment of effort and a decreasing level of progress, she has fallen out of love with me entirely and thinks she wants to leave. 

My stuff is a libido killer for sure but near flawlessness should not be a requirement to be in a give and take healthy lover relationship with a consistent and strong interest in meeting each others needs. 

Although its not what I want, I think I might feel relieved for the soul sucking effort it takes out of me and my HD. 

I'm not interested in going thru limbo any again. I think it might be time to bail on tbis net loser. 

I am jealous of every HD that ever left an LD and found someone with a better match. 

Where is the white flag? I surrender to reality.


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

They rarely come back folks. RARELY. Which is why threads like this are dangerous:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...t-fell-back-love-saving-16-year-marriage.html


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## MachoMcCoy (Oct 20, 2014)

Wow. You're all over the place, man. How many times exactly did you guys fall in and out of "love" in the past year?


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

Sorry you're back. I should have waved the white flag but I hung on until she was completely gone. Now I am in limbo. Still no sex as it is harder for guys but also no rejection or drama. My wife is gone and I am slowly working on myself. I trust in the future.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

I have no regrets. 

Being a leave it all on the field" guy that did "leave it all on the field" I'm good with whatever comes of it 

Giving it my all gave me the chance to 

1. prepare for the worst detangling plans, decisions, arrangements while continuing to try to save our marriage and hope for the best 
2. learn about what is and is not doable with my skill set which has grown tremendously
3. make many more memories that are mostly good
4. fix things with my daughter (only child) and allow her to sort thru what she wants and develop more strength and maturity
5. detach enough for the emotional blow not to be so devastating so I can move on faster if it comes to that
6. play countless mind movies of my wife with someone else knowing that will be a reality some day and be ok with that ultimate reality
7. imagine my life with someone more suitable knowing I will be fine as there are other fish in the sea that like what I like
8. make decisions about what I want and will pursue if my marriage comes to an unavoidable end
9. come to terms with the hard to accept reality that an LD just will not be able to snap out of it after the HD jumps thru all the absurd hoops with a litany of excuses why they are not desired
10. accept that its not all me and not all her. Its just a mismatch that can not be fixed without the right ingredients that often can not be found or identified

Bottom line, my efforts bought me some time to get my chit together a little tighter so the end isn't so destructive or shocking

What da phuck ever at this point. I can love my wife again if she suddenly gets what it will take but I don't see that happening. 

At this point, I am questioning why I still want it to work and why I am still willing to take a step back, simmer down the pressure to zero, go civil, focus on me and see what unfolds. 

I have heard many times that I will know when I am done. So far I want to leave the door open. 

Is she cheating? Maybe. Signs are there. Tighter clothes, higher heels, less interest in me, missing time slots without an explanation which a new habit. 

If she is, that will make it easy for me to end it. I am looking for evidence but none found. I don't find it hard to believe because I think she is fully capable of rationalizing it.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

You didn't give your all to your marriage. You were expending quite a bit of energy on your exit plan. Can't have it both ways.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

She's dressing sexier, has missing time throughout the day, and says she wants a divorce? 

Oh really...

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> You didn't give your all to your marriage. You were expending quite a bit of energy on your exit plan. Can't have it both ways.


Yes I have. Marriage is not an all consuming endeavor that's takes up every drop of energy. 

I also spent energy on mowing the lawn, playing tennis, fixing meals, breathing in and out, helping a friend paint his daughters apartment, planting daisies, walking the dog, considering investments, working out. 

To suggest someone cant make contingency plans for what appears to be a very real possibility because that takes too much energy away from the needs of a troubled marriage is absurd.

Energy invested elsewhere doesn't kill a marriage unless it should be killed because its pathetic. Marriages die for lots of reasons. Planning responsibilities to others and yourself in case something that looks very possible develops is the responsible thing to do for everyone involved including children and the rest of family and friends. 

I doubt there is anyone that has concluded accurately when they have a difficult marriage on the ropes that ignoring the responsibility of making contingency plans if the marriage ends was a good idea. 

Thinking about those things actually helped us both realize we wanted to try and make it work. Those conversations helped us progress thru many challenges. 

We won many battles and lost the war. 

I disagree no energy is available to be a responsible adult taking care of family, friends, self and responsibility with planning and intelligent steps so surprises, disappointments and uncontrollable setbacks can be endured with some level of grace and so both spouses end up as well of as possible emotionally and financially. There is no healthy reason to stick our heads in the sand instead of work thru our issues. 

With your energy premise, you indirectly suggest individual counseling is a marriage killer because of the energy spent on it. 

Suggesting I didn't give it my all is offensive because I took the steps needed to maintain responsibilities to myself and others

Silly


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thread,

You should sign up for IC. 

You are more focused on winning, than connecting. That compulsive need to win, to get the last word in, or alternatively to duck questions that don't show you in a good light, has brought you here. 





thread the needle said:


> Yes I have. Marriage is not an all consuming endeavor that's takes up every drop of energy.
> 
> I also spent energy on mowing the lawn, playing tennis, planning meals, breathing in and out, helping a friend paint his daughters apartment , planting daisies, walking the dog, considering investments.
> 
> ...


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Thread,
> 
> You should sign up for IC.
> 
> You are more focused on winning, than connecting. That compulsive need to win, to get the last word in, or alternatively to duck questions that don't show you in a good light, has brought you here.


There is merit to this possibility.

But what if the focus on connecting, which he claims to have done, leads to an outcome that is not minimally acceptable?

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Far,
I don't doubt for a moment - there was an effort to connect. 

That said, people often have multiple simultaneous goals, some of which conflict with others. 

This thread - short as it is - highlights that. 

The extreme angst associated with the idea - someone else will be sleeping with your ex. That's an intensely competitive posture. 

Our MC said something to M2 over and over. She said: You can 'win', or you can be 'close'. You need to decide which is more important. 

In the aftermath of counseling - I compressed this to: Winning, duh.

Which often made M2 laugh - but always gave her pause. 

So - here's the thing. I'm sure she has issues. Certain of it. 
That said, Thread likely wins a whole lot of little scuffles - leaving her very motivated to weaponize their sex life. 






farsidejunky said:


> There is merit to this possibility.
> 
> But what if the focus on connecting, which he claims to have done, leads to an outcome that is not minimally acceptable?
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> You can 'win', or you can be 'close'. You need to decide which is more important.
> 
> Thread likely wins a whole lot of little scuffles - leaving her very motivated to weaponize their sex life.


To what end? What's her goal? To destroy us for self-preservation?

Every time I said and sincerely so ... 

1. I agree with that
2. that's a fair point 
3. I am happy to stop that for you. Its not important to me at all and you are. Consider it done. 
4. I am happy to do that for you. It would be my pleasure 

It turned around the conversation to a place of good will. I always looked for them because they benefitted us and I wanted to be the best husband I could be. 

She doesn't do that. I am supposed to cheerfully accept the total lack of interest, action or commitment in her being concerned with my needs for intimacy while I am simultaneously making her needs for a litany of complaints a priority. 

I have not been able to do that over the long haul. Only short term and then I get resentful and confront. Bye bye wife results. She was not looking for areas of agreement. The focus was always on defending herself when it was not defendable. 

For example, she would take phone messages for my business phone and not put a date on them. I get hundreds of calls a month and have to prioritize them. I told her she didn't have to answer the line to please let the voice mail get it because I need the dates and don't mind taking care of the messages at all. 

She got angry . WTF?

I'm not sure if I need counseling or not when the point has been made. Stop trying to win and start being close. 

OK my love for intellectual debate cost me my wife's heart and my marriage. I don't have to debate her any more or the next love interest. When I ask her opinion and she shares it or she asks mine we share it and enjoy it. All bets are off the minute I ask a follow up because she sees it as a competition breaking out like some kind of challenge. 

Where she sees a challenge I see seeking deeper understanding. 

They consider ALL conversations with her and my daughter to be "long" 

Every time I shorten them by not "seeking deeper understanding" they welcome it. and then tell me about something I consider trivial to me but important to them and I find myself missing the more meaningful serious subject instead of enjoying the sharing of something chatty which I find exhausting the way they find me exhausting. 

The large bulk of my closest friends enjoy deeper explorations. With my tendencies, I ran her off. 

What would counseling do for me? Stop analyzing and learning and just be in the moment with a chill out? We went to VA beach for mothers day and we window shopped way too much every day for hours. No fun but that's what she likes way too much. No volley ball swimming exploring or socializing. We went to an arcade and won some tickets but it was only good for her for 20 minutes and then more shopping for the [erfect t shirt. Yuck 

I like to relax also with most of my physical pursuits. 

I believe the reason things got off track again is because I started working on things too much again and she doesn't have an appetite to defend her neglect. 

She will be happier with someone less intense and more happy go lucky. 

I am afraid therapy would attempt to turn me into someone more passive than I want to be. I know it cost me my marriage but I think its a mismatch more than anything and I need to find a doer instead of a low risk watcher

Does therapy help with learning how to practice tenderness and patience with someone which seems to be the missing ingredient?

What would I gain from therapy? What do I need to learn? Why does it have to be that something is wrong with me when she is blowing off things like coming to bed instead of sleeping on the sofa half the time when she falls asleep watching tv. 

I am so upset right now that it is so difficult to keep things on track. 

I don't know if I should give up and move on or try to figure it out and be tender tender tender and never ask for follow ups but jesus asking a follow up to understand something better is an attack. WTF? 

I am so confused


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thread,
Can't like this enough. Truly. 

Let me - share - an observation that might resonate. 

The only reasons you two are still together are mechanical. Logistics related to child custody, money/lifestyle. 

You said it best - you are not compatible. 




thread the needle said:


> To what end? What's her goal? To destroy us for self-preservation?
> 
> Every time I said and sincerely so ...
> 
> ...


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## philreag (Apr 2, 2015)

Sounds a lot like my STBXW. I love intelligent, rational, important conversations. She likes the Kardashians. She cannot have a rational conversation about our relationship. She get upset, calls me names, and storms out.

More and more I realize she did me a favor of having an exit emotional affair. I didn't put up with it and she walked. She had already checked out years before and was just waiting for the right time.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> Thread,
> Can't like this enough. Truly. .


I don't understand what you mean by that. What do you like? My post? my confusion? my conclusions? I place a high value on your feedback so I hope you don't get frustrated. My confidence in being taken as considerate is at an all time low so I hope I'm not being disagreeable only seeking to know.



MEM11363 said:


> The only reasons you two are still together are mechanical. Logistics related to child custody, money/lifestyle. .


For her perhaps its true and what I suspect. Not for me though. I have hope and don't understand why it hasn't faded out completely. It sure would be easier to know I was totally done. I have heard it described you know when your done. I don't feel done but I am getting there. I wish I was there so I could move on but I am not ready to let go of the hope that what we had we will have again no matter what the price. I now think it is effecting me physically as I have this urge to get a deep tissue massage to rub out the stress that has built up from not getting enough intimacy and desire from her for me to feel normal. 



MEM11363 said:


> You said it best - you are not compatible.


So hard to accept even with the evidence that it is not going to REhappen for us.

Hope is a biatch


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

philreag said:


> Sounds a lot like my STBXW. I love intelligent, rational, important conversations. She likes the Kardashians. She cannot have a rational conversation about our relationship. She get upset, calls me names, and storms out.
> 
> More and more I realize she did me a favor of having an exit emotional affair. I didn't put up with it and she walked. She had already checked out years before and was just waiting for the right time.


Same for me. Rarely any meaningful conversation. She'd go to her room and read online "romance" novels-- aka soft porn. Overspent on hair appointments, diet pills, fingernail polish.... I'll bet every shampoo and conditioner and fancy soap and bath crap made in the world has graced my home and at least one ounce per bottle was actually used. 

I worked outside after work to make extra money, planted a garden, fished, fixed things, restored a '68 chevelle and took her out to dinner and a movie and tried to talk. I didn't spend enough time with her. But all she wanted to do was sit around. I like to DO things.
Never appreciated. Just into shallow, materialistic fluff.

Got Into cybersex and left.

My current fiancée is highly educated, wise beyond her years, affectionate, doesn't talk a lot but when she does, it's good stuff and I love it.

Thread---- just divorce. There is happiness to be found. Don't feel like a failure. Succeed at making both you and your wife happy by letting her find a guy who makes her happy, too.

Your last post was good stuff. You are seeing things clearly, I think. Change is super hard. Carpe diem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Blondilocks said:


> You didn't give your all to your marriage. You were expending quite a bit of energy on your exit plan. Can't have it both ways.


Au contraire, that's exactly what an intelligent person would do. Like a video game. You get into a room with aliens / monsters / enemies. While you work towards your goal, you always keep an eye on the exit strategy. It's not fun facing the monster mom in aliens 3 size when all you have is your regulation sidearm.

It's not any different here. There's the "give" curve and the "get" curve. At some point no matter how you "give" there's no more "get". You need to have another way out.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thread,

I should have been clearer. 

Your post came across not only as completely genuine, but insightful and balanced. 

I absolutely believe you have made a large and sincere step towards addressing her requests. Not sure why she is still getting satisfaction from rejecting you. Thing is - the combo of dressing sexier while rejecting you - why I described it as weaponizing your sex life. 

That said - bear with me here - because I believe the following is true. 

I get the sense you've sort of let her know that you are thinking about ending things - a few times. More than 3 - less than a dozen. And we both know how this works. You say something like that directly once and then after that, comments about being 'unhappy' trigger her. 

Self preservation is a powerful thing. She's stepping it up to be ready in case - either of you reaches the breaking point. 

Why I'm pessimistic - is - you genuinely try to connect - to get into her head - understand WHY she thinks a certain way - and she pushes you out. That's a real trust issue. 

As far as debate goes - well - some folks like it - others hate it. 






thread the needle said:


> I don't understand what you
> 
> 
> by that. What do you like? My post? my confusion? my conclusions? I place a high value on your feedback so I hope you don't get frustrated. My confidence in being taken as considerate is at an all time low so I hope I'm not being disagreeable only seeking to know.
> ...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

john117 said:


> Au contraire, that's exactly what an intelligent person would do. Like a video game. You get into a room with aliens / monsters / enemies. While you work towards your goal, you always keep an eye on the exit strategy. It's not fun facing the monster mom in aliens 3 size when all you have is your regulation sidearm.
> 
> It's not any different here. There's the "give" curve and the "get" curve. At some point no matter how you "give" there's no more "get". You need to have another way out.


It's a good thing marriage isn't a video game. When you have eyes on the door, you don't have eyes on the prize. It looks like he's getting what he was eyeing all along - the door.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The basic cognitive processes are the same whether at work, at home, or at play.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thread,
What you have - isn't hope so much as obsession. 

M2 and I have had a couple bumpy patches. And honestly - at the low points - her obsession - held things together. 

I am saying this next bit - in all sincerity - I am not making fun or poking at you: I have compassion for you two. It must be stressful to fixate on someone like that. At those low points - M2 didn't really want me - but she was absolutely terrified of the idea of anyone else 'getting' me. 

In 10,000 plus posts - I've never said this before. I tolerate M2's jealous, possessive, controlling behavior because:
1. I am physically and financially the stronger partner
2. She retains a genuine sense of humor about her own behavior
And last but not least 
3. In 1-1 situations she is pretty much a perfect companion






thread the needle said:


> I don't understand what you mean by that. What do you like? My post? my confusion? my conclusions? I place a high value on your feedback so I hope you don't get frustrated. My confidence in being taken as considerate is at an all time low so I hope I'm not being disagreeable only seeking to know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> It's a good thing marriage isn't a video game. When you have eyes on the door, you don't have eyes on the prize. It looks like he's getting what he was eyeing all along - the door.


Honey? Is that you?

Do you just throw bombs or do have suggestions?

Clearly I have much to learn about your ideas because they make no sense to me whatsoever how cute cliches absolve me of the taking the reasonable responsibility of taking intelligent precautions considering all outcomes and developing a reasonable plan and making reasonable arrangements for each of them for everyone's sake including my daughter and balance of family.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

In fact, I suggest you divorce. It's obvious she is sick to death of you nagging her for sex. You have two hands - pick one.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

I have declared this tenderness week in my head. I am being more tender without expectations as I should have been all along instead of focusing on what I am not getting. I hope that is the opposite of bully and has a large patience component. I need to chill. I don't feel good about backsliding from where we were because I brought out the complainer extraordaire because the rate of progress was too slow to suit me. 

I read "why woman leave men they love" again and the thing that hits home most is " You can get as angry or hurt or indignant as you want. Your wife is not your property. She does not owe you her soul. You earn it. Day by day, moment to moment. You earn her first and foremost with your presence, your aliveness. She needs to feel it. She wants to talk to you about what matters to her and to feel you hearing her."

Yea pretty much what I have been saying all along but I got away from it AGAIN. SO PISSED AT MYSELF. I need to forgive it and her for reacting as would be expected.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

thread the needle said:


> I have declared this tenderness week in my head. I am being more tender without expectations as I should have been all along instead of focusing on what I am not getting. I hope that is the opposite of bully and has a large patience component. I need to chill. I don't feel good about backsliding from where we were because I brought out the complainer extraordaire because the rate of progress was too slow to suit me.
> 
> I read "why woman leave men they love again" and the thing that hits home most is " You can get as angry or hurt or indignant as you want. Your wife is not your property. She does not owe you her soul. You earn it. Day by day, moment to moment. You earn her first and foremost with your presence, your aliveness. She needs to feel it. She wants to talk to you about what matters to her and to feel you hearing her."
> 
> Yea pretty much what I have been saying all along but I got away from it AGAIN. SO PISSED AT MYSELF. I need to forgive it and her for reacting as would be expected.


When you are giving her your very best, is she doing the same?

Because I see someone that would likely not feel loved by her even if she was giving her very best. And that is not her fault, nor your fault. 

Incompatibility. I agree with @MEM11363 on this one.

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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> In fact, I suggest you divorce. It's obvious she is sick to death of you nagging her for sex. You have two hands - pick one.


Appreciate the answer and the participation and I agree with you entirely but I'm not ready to give up because I messed up.

My neighbor is a pastor and we are very good friends. He has offered me some things to try which you might call anti-nagging and has coached me on the tenderness approach I started yesterday with nice results.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> When you are giving her your very best, is she doing the same?
> 
> Because I see someone that would likely not feel loved by her even if she was giving her very best. And that is not her fault, nor your fault.
> 
> ...


I look at it like this. She asked for about a half dozen things about 2.5 years ago. I mastered four of them. That made a huuuuuge difference. 

Those four were mostly to lighten her load drastically so she was not so tired and felt like I had her back more and she was not EXPECTED or required to take car of things that ought to be my responsibility because I didn't. 

The other two have more to do with attention affection and respect. Although we did ok in this area, it has along way to go. That is the area that needs to be worked on. 

Therefore she has never had me at my best. I could have done much better. 

Maybe it's too late and maybe it isn't. I'm not tone deaf so I understand the real possibility that it is. Since I'm not ready to throw it all away though, I will continue to work away at it until I become ready to give up.

As far as her being her best, she may very well be doing her best, maybe not. I think I need to believe she is for this to work. Unfortunately this is a struggle for me so I need to take responsibility for the outcomes I am causing. 

If we are still incompatible, once the street has been cleaned up, it will reveal itself in due course.

She said to me the last time we had a blowup, to clean up my side of the street first. That was specifically explained to be more tender and loving and not a bully because the bullying shuts off the libido. 

Probably lost her acting like my father that turned my mother into an empty shell of her former self (is that FOO stuff?) but I am learning slowly how to be tender and how important it is instead of being who I am at work. Bass/owner/employer. 

I have to decompress on the way home to get out of that role before I grab the door knob outside at home

I have read men can make remarkable turnarounds. I have read some wives just cant get it back and that they leave because they believe there is a better life alone or with someone else. 

I get all that. I control what I can and the rest is not up to me. 

If I have learned anything, it is that she REACTS to me. Just last night and this morning she reacted in a positive way to my TLC patience and quiet inner peace in a big way. 

I will keep on with that and see how it goes. She deserves my best attempt to make her happy and I think much of that is to give her some space and be much more gentle when I interact with her. I also need to make her laugh more which comes easy to me when I am mindful of it instead of being lazy about it.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

There are some analogies in here. I would like to add another primarily addressed to @Blondilocks

I have jumper cables, oil, a gas can, flares, a blanket, first aid kit, water, coolant and a funnel in every trunk of every vehicle I own. I do my very best to take care of my vehicles but you just never know what the road will bring us including those things that are out of our control. 

What we do know is what the possibilities are. I am able to "keep my eyes on the road" even if I am prepared for many of things that might come up even if I hope they don't.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

That all sounds good.

You do appear to have a high bully quotient. Threatening divorce - when you have zero intention of following through - classic bully move. 

Observe: The difference between obsession and love is big.

Obsession: If our sex life doesn't improve I'm divorcing you
Love: Am I doing stuff that's killing your desire

Obsession is about me
Love is about you

It's good to focus on you. To improve yourself. 

You are not easily helped. There are folks on TAM who collaborate (Far, SimplyAmorous, Catherine, and many others). And those that compete. The former group benefits TAM and from TAM more than the latter. 





thread the needle said:


> I look at it like this. She asked for about a half dozen things about 2.5 years ago. I mastered four of them. That made a huuuuuge difference.
> 
> Those four were mostly to lighten her load drastically so she was not so tired and felt like I had her back more and she was not EXPECTED or required to take car of things that ought to be my responsibility because I didn't.
> 
> ...


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Your analogy shows that you could have accomplished outfitting every one of your vehicles in one visit to an auto parts store - say 3 hours. I sincerely doubt that you were able to come up with your exit plan in 3 hours on any particular day. It's the repeated vibes that women pick up on that turns the libido off. I wish you luck in re-engaging with your wife.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

thread the needle said:


> I look at it like this. She asked for about a half dozen things about 2.5 years ago. I mastered four of them. That made a huuuuuge difference.
> 
> Those four were mostly to lighten her load drastically so she was not so tired and felt like I had her back more and she was not EXPECTED or required to take car of things that ought to be my responsibility because I didn't.
> 
> The other two have more to do with attention affection and respect. Although we did ok in this area, it has along way to go. That is the area that needs to be worked on.


Did she ever even get close to being tolerable in this department in that 2.5 years?



thread the needle said:


> If we are still incompatible, once the street has been cleaned up, it will reveal itself in due course.


Not if the observation that you obsess over your wife is correct. 

_Obsession defined: to dominate or preoccupy the thoughts, feelings, or desires of (a person); beset, trouble, or haunt persistently or abnormally_

If you are truly obsessed, you run the risk of dragging the corpse of your marriage long after it has died.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> That all sounds good.
> 
> You do appear to have a high bully quotient. Threatening divorce - when you have zero intention of following through - classic bully move.
> 
> ...


Every bit of this is extremely helpful to hear, Thank you for staying with it. It has helped and it is clear the problem came thru and the solution is a work in progress. It would have taken a lot longer to have to figure it out without your help. 

I understand I can be challenging and intense and I am not for the faint of heart at times.



farsidejunky said:


> Did she ever even get close to being tolerable in this department in that 2.5 years?.


Yes we had some amazing short periods in there that were completely restored to the original glory and then one of us would obliviously backslide too frequently by not being mindful of the other and we seemed to crash harder than warranted with overreaction. 

My mirror will be helpful. 



farsidejunky said:


> Not if the observation that you obsess over your wife is correct.
> 
> _Obsession defined: to dominate or preoccupy the thoughts, feelings, or desires of (a person); beset, trouble, or haunt persistently or abnormally_
> 
> If you are truly obsessed, you run the risk of dragging the corpse of your marriage long after it has died.


Point taken. Thank you


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Blondilocks said:


> It's the repeated vibes that women pick up on that turns the libido off.


This is it. That's what did it. When I stop it restores itself and we reconnect. When I start it back up, it destroys us. 

I need to learn what triggers it and how to address that another way without it requiring these wake up calls and scary times. 

Thank you for sticking with me until you broke thru to me 


Extremely helpful.

I am going to print this and put it on a card in my wallet. 

Thank you 

MEM 
Far
Blondi

I am so grateful for getting to where I get it. I was so stuck.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

thread the needle said:


> Every bit of this is extremely helpful to hear, Thank you for staying with it. It has helped and it is clear the problem came thru and the solution is a work in progress. It would have taken a lot longer to have to figure it out without your help.
> 
> I understand I can be challenging and intense and I am not for the faint of heart at times.
> 
> ...


Why does it take so much effort to maintain "good"?

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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> Why does it take so much effort to maintain "good"?


Short answer: I am habitually very harsh, she needs an abundance of tenderness. 

Long detailed answer: 

I struggle a lot with tenderness and being present and I am way overly goal focused and my wife has a very high need for tenderness and is an in the moment person. 

Compatible? It depends on the approach. 

The most consistent thing throughout our marriage that I can count on is she REACTS to what I do. If I do what causes the reaction I am looking for, everything is blissful for both of us. If I do what causes her to react in a way I don't like, her bad reaction causes more negative behavior from me and it goes off the rails very quickly. I think I kind of just need to grow up and be more mature, patient, understanding and supportive about everything across the board and stop taking my eye off the ball with distractions from my priorities. 

MEM said I am not easy to help. I agree with that. Imagine a tender hearted person trying to "help" me. That's her until she builds walls and launches a counter attack because I criticized her and then she is brutal. I start up competition "winning" mode and its on! When I "win" I lose her. Our conflict resolution broke when I went too far too often. That toxic mix can be fixed with a diffuser I need to develop along with a healthy way to discuss differences in the first place.

I MUST be mindful and present and focused when I am in her presence because it is deeply blissful beyond words when I get it right. If I am distracted with something else then we don't connect. 

That "vibe" needs to the right vibe. The "I love you" vibe not the "I am distracted or annoyed arrogance" vibe. 

I'm not good at it yet because I have many other pursuits and she is not into them because they were like competitors of hers for my attention, mindfulness, presence, energy, focus

The blowup was Friday. Every day since has gotten better and it is because of tenderness and patience and the right "vibe" being sent. She is sick but loves a morning kiss goodbye so its a forehead thing but today we added the hug. She then added the extra gesture and sweet comments. 

Mindful mindful mindful. Present present present I gotta learn to pay attention and shut up. Doh!

Two things 

1. I met her online 17 years ago on a sit ethat had a personal quote. Her quote was the golden rule and she follows it 

2. If I cant say something nice then I am going to zip it

I also started kissing my daughter goodbye telling her I love her and telling her to have a good day instead of not bothering to look up from my laptop. She melts also.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Okay, but TTN...

Not everyone can handle that level of emotional dominance.

Brother, my wife and I struggle with that same type of thing. I am by my nature an emotional person. Not weepy, but amplified; joy, sadness, enthusiasm...all of it I experience at a higher level than most.

There are times when my wife needs me to not be emotional. Sometimes that works...sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't work, I don't wear myself out over it, because while I do want to be the person she needs to the greatest extent possible, I understand I also have limitations in that area. So must she. And when we don't, we both begin to do things that are counterproductive to "us". 

Now, as to you. Have you ever read Awareness by DeMello? I think that would be a fantastic read for you.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

farsidejunky said:


> I am by my nature ...amplified. I experience at a higher level than most.


Me too. That's clarifies it for me the way you put it. 



farsidejunky said:


> There are times when my wife needs me to not be emotional. Sometimes that works...sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't work, I don't wear myself out over it, because while I do want to be the person she needs to the greatest extent possible, I understand I also have limitations in that area. So must she. And when we don't, we both begin to do things that are counterproductive to "us". .


Me too. I am not expecting perfection out of myself, just steady improvement, an acceptable level of growth in the right direction so I am not "noticeably unhinged" like I have been feeling lately. I need to calm the phuck down and have a target approach to strive for that is effective in me finding balance I can respect myself for. Jesus I have been just so "off" and unattractive lately as if I was embracing being shocking to people I care about most. Friends have noticed also. 



farsidejunky said:


> Now, as to you. Have you ever read Awareness by DeMello? I think that would be a fantastic read for you.


I look forward to it. Will check it out right now. Thank you


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Message @Chuck71. I think he has it on PDF.

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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

If you over-sharpen a knife, it will become dull or even break.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

thread the needle said:


> I am way overly goal focused


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> You are not easily helped. There are folks on TAM who collaborate (Far, SimplyAmorous, Catherine, and many others). And those that compete. The former group benefits TAM and from TAM more than the latter.


Assuming of course that your partner is collaborative rather than competitive in nature. 

Agree to a set of objectives and steps to get there and track progress. If you or your partner move the goalposts someone's interested in winning more than in succeeding.

Goal orientated is not a bad thing. It's how to get there that can be good or bad.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

john117 said:


> Assuming of course that your partner is collaborative rather than competitive in nature.
> 
> Agree to a set of objectives and steps to get there and track progress. If you or your partner move the goalposts someone's interested in winning more than in succeeding.
> 
> Goal orientated is not a bad thing. It's how to get there that can be good or bad.


the collaborative aspect is key

if the "goal" takes primacy over this, then the "goal" has superseded the relationship

imagine a tree. it needs sunlight and water. these are it's "goals," but does it think about them or just receive them? if a storm comes, does it fight the wind or just bend with it?

like a tree, you can realize that, one way or another, you will get what you need. you don't need to scheme for it or chase it.

once you let go of the need to chase it, you may find that it comes to you much easier than you imagined it would.


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Not read your backstory but thought I'd chime in.....

As with most couples, it's an emotional charge at first.

Courtship, M, christening each room... trips, quiet time together

Then come the kids... jobs who want 60 hours work for 40

hour pay. Let's see....kid's homework, kid's dinner, kid's 

bath.... by then both are dead tired and it's 10:30. Guess what...

tomorrow we get to do it all over again! And we wonder why 

couples are struggling.

Everyone wants to bring their A game, every day. Impossible to

do every day but a true effort minimizes many obstacles. Where

ever the point you screwed up or she screwed up.... rectifying it

gets more honey than pointing fingers and keeping scorecards.

Own your POS tendencies.... that is all YOU can do. If you have

made numerous efforts to correct things.... all YOU can do.

Johnny Bench was one of the greatest catchers ever, Tom Seaver,

one of the greatest pitchers. But without a pitcher, Bench is useless.

Without a catcher, Seaver is useless. If you feel you have given 110%, 

not 100%, but 110% in clear communication.... what else is left to do?

It's like being expected to run a mile in 3:30. Won't....ever...happen.

Two choices.... this is now your "new normal" or you chose to

live again. When I see guys posting something like "When I spend

more time at home, with kids, with spouse, family .... I'm told I'm not

a good provider," or "I beat my brains out 60-70 hours a week to give 

my family a nice home, nice life.... I'm told I am a horrible H for not 

spending time with my family." Thing is... no one can have it both ways

and shouldn't. But I have yet to hear anyone state...."We agreed on a 

middle ground and both are happy."


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Thread,
There was an event you described - that stuck with me. 

She got you a gift (oysters?), and your reaction was to point out they are cheaper at the grocery store. That is a perfect example of trying to run a marriage like a business. 

Not saying that - the mechanics of the marriage don't matter. They do. But - this is the type stuff you have been doing that does not produce a good outcome. 

And - in the spirit of being helpful - your story is: I enjoy rigorous intellectual debate. 

That's half true. The full truth is that you are competitive and also pride yourself on being smart. 

Result is the following: When the facts are on your side, you argue the facts. When the law is on your side, you argue the law. When neither is true you change the subject. 

This - need to win - is very tiresome to a partner. 

And the harsh tone - what she hears is: you think she is stupid






thread the needle said:


> Short answer: I am habitually very harsh, she needs an abundance of tenderness.
> 
> Long detailed answer:
> 
> ...


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Hmmm, good advice on this thread. I've nothing to add, just kudos to others.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

Chuck71 said:


> Own your POS tendencies..... If you feel you have given 110%


I have given +/-65% effort to owning my POS tendencies. It ebbs and flows from 25% to 80%. I am 4 for 6 on her reasonable requests. 

Tenderness and being present are the two failures left. 

If I believed I had given it 11O% and things didn't fix, I would pronounce it dead. It may still be because she won't come even as far back as she has before with my 4 for 6. 

Indications so far are tenderness and being present are incrementally causing reactions I am looking for.

The first 4 came easy to me. The last two need to happen or I've blown it because I am out of chances.


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

MEM11363 said:


> this is the type stuff you have been doing that does not produce a good outcome.


Agreed



MEM11363 said:


> And - in the spirit of being helpful - your story is: I enjoy rigorous intellectual debate.
> 
> That's half true. The full truth is that you are competitive and also pride yourself on being smart.
> 
> ...


I hear you and when I win I lose because I cant be close. 



MEM11363 said:


> And the harsh tone - what she hears is: you think she is stupid


I'm an a$$


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You are not an azz.

That said - she's given you unending feedback on this. Which you largely ignored. She is now certain there is only one reliable way to get your attention. Withholding sex. 






thread the needle said:


> Agreed
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

MEM said "She got you a gift (oysters?), and your reaction was to point out they are cheaper at the grocery store. That is a perfect example of trying to run a marriage like a business."

That is a no-no TTN. Granted you are right, they would be cheaper at the store but.... she took the time, care,

consideration to do this for you. Good bet her feelings were hurt. 

You must admit.... if you got her a pendant (or anything else) and she said you can get them cheaper at

the local (fill in any store), this would not bother you more than likely. Reason why M / F are wired

different. MEM is correct if you treat many things in a M as a business transaction.... you will find

yourself in many screw-ups. My pop told me years ago "A man can think anything he wants but 

if it becomes an action with a woman.... analyze all bases first."

In the PDF I sent you.... DeMello.... Awareness...... He speaks on #1s, 2s, and 3s. Example....

He states a #1 as doing / buying something for yourself.... a new shirt, tool set.

A #2 is doing something for others and expecting nothing in return... charity, volunteering.

A #3 is when you do something for someone and expect a reaction... when you do not get the reaction one desired, 

you get angry and upset. Say you buy your spouse a necklace and that person's response doesn't seem to

"match what you were expecting" and you throw a fit.

That is why a #3 is very unhealthy. You place your well-being and happiness in the hands of others.

Real life example.... guy (former TAMer) buys his g/f a sweater for Christmas. She gets upset.... the sweater

was one size too small. She bemoans he wants her to lose weight, this was why it is too small.

He starts to apologize immediately...... 

See a pattern there? 

If you have too many #3s... that is a sign of possible Co-D tendencies. This applies to both you

and your W. Below is a short read about Co-D.... by a wise ex TAMmer

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/155305-weeds-codependence.html


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Good stuff Chuck.

Patterns are King but Tone rules.

I have found the rule of three helpful. Something minor happens - I don't like - meh - maybe it's a one off. If it happens 3 times in a sort of short timeframe - I say something. 

Thing is - all feedback tends to either sound like: 
- You suck because...
Or
- It would be nice if...

I see the pattern and I say the next time XYZ happens it would be nice if... you would do ABC.

Sometimes M2 claims that she is doing that. Usually I say - not so much lately babe. If asked for examples I give them. 

And it's obvious that I am expressing a preference, not issuing an order. 

Generally works like magic. 





Chuck71 said:


> MEM said "She got you a gift (oysters?), and your reaction was to point out they are cheaper at the grocery store. That is a perfect example of trying to run a marriage like a business."
> 
> That is a no-no TTN. Granted you are right, they would be cheaper at the store but.... she took the time, care,
> 
> ...


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## Chuck71 (Nov 5, 2012)

Tone elicits emotion so that is "tread carefully territory.... proceed with caution"

But.... I'm quite the old school crowd. I put up with more than most (I guess) but when it reaches a 

certain point.... I'm done. Ice cold is an understatement. But... I left it on the field.

50% in / 50% out .... just doesn't compute. Granted I was undiagnosed ADHD in the 1970s and later

learned I am autistic. There is a difference in concrete (black / white) and abstract are tremendous. 

I just can't buy the half in / half out BS.... I asked my XW three times, twice in person, last a letter

After the 3rd... drop in the rabbit hole. Things sure seemed different after the journey.

I set firm boundaries and placed her in a situation to 1-leave door open, 2-close and lock, throw away key

She chose 2... game, set, match.

You have to do what is best for you..... THEN consider others.

Awareness will help you.....

I tie in a CS Lewis book with that reading but... it's not a favorite of many


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