# Do Hand Jobs Count as Sex



## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

My wife and I were both raised in conservative, Christian homes and were committed to staying virgins until we were married. 

While we were dating my wife told me she had to break it off with her Ex because things got too physical (sexually). She seemed pretty upset about it, so I asked her what she meant. She described heavy petting, making out and taking each others cloths off and spending the night with him. I asked if they had had sex and she said no they didn't, that "nothing happened."

Anyway, fast forward 12 years later. We're married. I'm laying in bed half asleep and she randomly asks, "When do you think it counts as having sex?" I said if one person brings another person to orgasim, they've had sex (not sure it was a great definition of sex, but whatever).

She goes, "Oh I've done that." Since we've been married for awhile, I chuckle and say, "Yes you have." Then she says no, I mean with someone else. So now I'm fully awake. After asking a few questions she tells me that she used to give her boyfriend hand jobs.

Obviously the hand jobs aren't a huge deal but I felt lied to for all these years. I was also a little disturbed by the fact that she would describe hand jobs as not sex. 

Anyway it turned into a huge fight.

What is your policy about sharing past sexual activity with your current spouse. Do you openly share or is it better not to mention anything? Do you feel jealous about it when you do learn of it. And, do hand jobs count as sex?


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

A huge fight over your wife giving hand jobs to BFs before you were married?

Really.


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## nice777guy (Nov 23, 2009)

I understand where you're coming from. But the problem with not talking about sex with your kids, is that they have a lot of misconceptions. I can totally see where someone who was told not to talk about sex while growing up - told not to ask questions - could be "fooled" by a young man into thinking "well hey - this doesn't really count..."

So - in other words - I understand why you're upset - but what can you do? Really?

Do you believe her when she says that SHE didn't think it counted?


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

I'd say it definitely counts as 'sex,' but for the purposes of the discussion of your wife's sexual past, I think it goes into the 'fooling around' category. If two virgins stimulate each other to orgasm manually, has either one lost their virginity? I don't think so.

On past sexual activity, we don't really discuss it all that much.. we haven't made a rule about it or anything, it just doesn't usually come up unless it's like, 'have you done x before,' etc.


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

jayde said:


> A huge fight over your wife giving hand jobs to BFs before you were married?
> 
> Really.


Yeah, it was a little stupid. But the hand job wasn't really the issue, the issue for me was that I felt mislead. 

But maybe I should have just said, "good for you." and went to sleep.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

It's a stupid fight.

Yes, it's sex. If you get another person aroused and touch their privates, its sex, even of they didn't cum.

There are degrees of sex however. It's sex, it just isn't intercourse.

I'm sure most people woud prefer their teens to engage in handjobs rather than intercourse.

French kissing is sex too. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

nader said:


> I'd say it definitely counts as 'sex,' but for the purposes of the discussion of your wife's sexual past, I think it goes into the 'fooling around' category. If two virgins stimulate each other to orgasm manually, has either one lost their virginity? I don't think so.
> 
> On past sexual activity, we don't really discuss it all that much.. we haven't made a rule about it or anything, it just doesn't usually come up unless it's like, 'have you done x before,' etc.


I wasn't really questioning her virginity. I felt frustrated that she made this big show of telling me about how bad she felt for going so far with this guy only to leave out the hand job part and then to just drop it on me randomly.


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

I realizes this discussion probably seems a little silly and antiquated to most people on this forum. If you're sexually active as a teenager and you've had a number of partners before marriage and its understood that you were both active it's not a big deal.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Tell your wife that you've been getting hand jobs from the hot young secretary at work. I wonder if she'll keep her blase attitude toward hand jobs.

I don't blame you for thinking it's a big deal. Especially since you and your wife waited until after marriage for things like that. But your wife should not have told you at this point. She should have either told you before you married or kept it a secret forever.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

1. Unless I'm missing something here, you weren't lied to or misled. By your own account, she said she got naked and engaged in 'heavy petting' with the guy. What did you think that meant? Back rubs? She told you she was a virgin and she was.
2.A hand job isn't sex in my book any more than dry humping is sex. It's petting, exactly as she told you.
3. Getting bent out of shape over how your future bride defined sex more than a decade ago seems awfully silly.
4. And here's why it's never a good idea to detail one's sexual past to current love interests, with the exception of instances that have a direct impact on the present relationship.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

I do not consider hand jobs as sex either. It's more along the lines of masturbation or foreplay.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## nader (May 4, 2011)

BALANCE said:


> I wasn't really questioning her virginity. I felt frustrated that she made this big show of telling me about how bad she felt for going so far with this guy only to leave out the hand job part and then to just drop it on me randomly.


that is strange that she just asked you out of the blue. why do you think it came up? And ftr, I'm pretty sure 'heavy petting' can entail hjs.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> Tell your wife that you've been getting hand jobs from the hot young secretary at work. I wonder if she'll keep her blase attitude toward hand jobs.
> 
> I don't blame you for thinking it's a big deal. Especially since you and your wife waited until after marriage for things like that. But your wife should not have told you at this point. She should have either told you before you married or kept it a secret forever.


Yeah because cheating in your marriage is TOTALLY the same as fooling around when you were single. Blase attitude? She was not with him and single and it goes in to the fooling around category which she didn't lie about but hey, let's barbeque her. Quick, grab the pitchforks!!


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> 1. Unless I'm missing something here, you weren't lied to or misled. By your own account, she said she got naked and engaged in 'heavy petting' with the guy. What did you think that meant? Back rubs?


Yeah, I assumed it meant a back rub, maybe a little talk about the day and then roll over and go to sleep. Thats what she does with me.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

BALANCE said:


> Yeah, I assumed it meant a back rub, maybe a little talk about the day and then roll over and go to sleep. Thats what she does with me.


Well maybe THAT'S what you need to worry about then, not what she did with this other guy.


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yeah because cheating in your marriage is TOTALLY the same as fooling around when you were single. Blase attitude? She was not with him and single and it goes in to the fooling around category which she didn't lie about but hey, let's barbeque her. Quick, grab the pitchforks!!


Whoa! Whoa! Everybody just calm down. It is obviously not the same as cheating. She did not cheat on me, she didn't even know me. My issue isn't really with that part of it.

But, if your husband told you he dated somebody but that they never had sex and then years later said, "oh yeah I totally had sex with her." Would that hurt? Would it matter to you?


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

BALANCE said:


> Whoa! Whoa! Everybody just calm down. It is obviously not the same as cheating. She did not cheat on me, she didn't even know me. My issue isn't really with that part of it.
> 
> But, if your husband told you he dated somebody but that they never had sex and then years later said, "oh yeah I totally had sex with her." Would that hurt? Would it matter to you?


I was referring to PThump's post that you should retaliate to your wife. It is ridiculous to compare the two.
She DIDN'T have sex with him. She told you heavy petting which by it's pure definition means genital touching so what exactly do you feel she was dishonest about? She was forthright all along, you just assumed a different meaning.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Omg.

I gave my first hand job at 16. lol Almost 17. It was sexual but hardly sex. At least not for me :lol:

This shouldn't even be an issue in your marriage. Seriously.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

BALANCE said:


> Whoa! Whoa! Everybody just calm down. It is obviously not the same as cheating. She did not cheat on me, she didn't even know me. My issue isn't really with that part of it.
> 
> But, if your husband told you he dated somebody but that they never had sex and then years later said, "oh yeah I totally had sex with her." Would that hurt? Would it matter to you?


But in her mind apparently - and I'd suspect in a lot of people's minds - she didn't have sex with him. She engaged in heavy petting, which is exactly what she told you all those years ago.
Seriously, in your mind when does heavy petting end and sex begin?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

BALANCE said:


> Whoa! Whoa! Everybody just calm down. It is obviously not the same as cheating. She did not cheat on me, she didn't even know me. My issue isn't really with that part of it.
> 
> But, if your husband told you he dated somebody but that they never had sex and then years later said, "oh yeah I totally had sex with her." Would that hurt? Would it matter to you?


Not at all. I don't get all crazy about my husband's past, nor he mine.

I don't understand people who get all offended about the past. 

If my husband said he didn't sleep with someone and then it came out he did....big deal. I have a couple people I don't advirtise that I slept with :rofl:


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

I don't believe your reaction was so much about the act itself as the fact that you had an understanding of your wife's sexual history based on your own definition of sex. If you assumed hers was the same and it wasn't it would be a bit of a shock. Since her definition was that an HJ was not sex, that would explain her rather nonchalant reaction. You seem to have recovered and gotten your arms around the situation so let her know you are OK with the past and move on. Dwelling on it won't do anybody any good. As far as discussions on past sexual history, we don't discuss them. We both have a general idea of each other's past but don't discuss specific interactions, body attributes or circumstances. My wife's list of sexual partners before we met is substantially longer than mine but it has never been an issue between us or with me. Our history is what helped us hone our sexual talents we now only share with each other.


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

that_girl said:


> Omg.
> 
> I gave my first hand job at 16. lol Almost 17. It was sexual but hardly sex. At least not for me :lol:
> 
> This shouldn't even be an issue in your marriage. Seriously.


I didn't say it was an issue in the marriage, just something we argued about one night.



FrankKissel said:


> But in her mind apparently - and I'd suspect in a lot of people's minds - she didn't have sex with him. She engaged in heavy petting, which is exactly what she told you all those years ago.
> Seriously, in your mind when does heavy petting end and sex begin?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I said she described some heavy petting, she didn't use that term. And I think your last line is exactly what I'm asking. When does it count as sex?


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

Amplexor said:


> I don't believe your reaction was so much about the act itself as the fact that you had an understanding of your wife's sexual history based on your own definition of sex. If you assumed hers was the same and it wasn't it would be a bit of a shock. Since her definition was that an HJ was not sex, that would explain her rather nonchalant reaction. You seem to have recovered and gotten your arms around the situation so let her know you are OK with the past and move on. Dwelling on it won't do anybody any good. As far as discussions on past sexual history, we don't discuss them. We both have a general idea of each other's past but don't discuss specific interactions, body attributes or circumstances. My wife's list of sexual partners before we met is substantially longer than mine but it has never been an issue between us or with me. Our history is what helped us hone our sexual talents we now only share with each other.


Thank you, that describes the situation very well. I was a bit shocked at the change from "nothing happened" to "I gave him a hand job" but it doesn't affect how I feel about her or anything in the present. I did, however, probably overreact during the moment and I regret that.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

BALANCE said:


> And I think your last line is exactly what I'm asking. When does it count as sex?


Well, I guess that's for you to decide. I my mind it's not sex (to me sex = penetration), but you can feel differently. I just don't think it's fair for you to accuse your wife of lying to or misleading you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LimboGirl (Oct 28, 2011)

BALANCE said:


> Whoa! Whoa! Everybody just calm down. It is obviously not the same as cheating. She did not cheat on me, she didn't even know me. My issue isn't really with that part of it.
> 
> But, if your husband told you he dated somebody but that they never had sex and then years later said, "oh yeah I totally had sex with her." Would that hurt? Would it matter to you?


What my husband did in the past, before us is in the past. As long as I didn't get a disease from it, I don't care. I don't even mind if the subject comes up. I know he doesn't love someone in his past.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Yeah because cheating in your marriage is TOTALLY the same as fooling around when you were single.


I'm talking about the definition of sex. You're saying hand jobs aren't sex when you're single, but they are sex when you're married? Why change the definition of sex?



Therealbrighteyes said:


> Blase attitude? She was not with him and single and it goes in to the fooling around category which she didn't lie about but hey, let's barbeque her. Quick, grab the pitchforks!!


You can choose to be as blase or as restrictive as you like. But I don't blame the OP for being upset when his wife spent years telling him she was not a certain kind of girl, only to later casually admit out of the blue that she was TOTALLY that kind of girl.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> I'm talking about the definition of sex. You're saying hand jobs aren't sex when you're single, but they are sex when you're married? Why change the definition of sex?
> 
> 
> You can choose to be as blase or as restrictive as you like. But I don't blame the OP for being upset when his wife spent years telling him she was not a certain kind of girl, only to later casually admit out of the blue that she was TOTALLY that kind of girl.


It IS the same when you are single or married. Not sex. It would however be cheating if done while married with someone else. Why you want to compare the two is beyond me....kind of like apples to q-tips.
She said heavy petting and he thought she meant a back rub? Come on. That kind of girl? She was honest from the get go....what more do you want?


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> Well, I guess that's for you to decide. I my mind it's not sex (to me sex = penetration), but you can feel differently. I just don't think it's fair for you to accuse your wife of lying to or misleading you.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right, it is unfair. She didn't lie she just didn't tell me everything. She didn't tell me because she didn't want to go into all the details. I get that.

It seems most people on here think it's no big deal. It really isn't a big deal for me now, but I wonder why I reacted the way I did?


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> It IS the same when you are single or married. Not sex. It would however be cheating if done while married with someone else. Why you want to compare the two is beyond me....kind of like apples to q-tips.
> She said heavy petting and he thought she meant a back rub? Come on. That kind of girl? She was honest from the get go....what more do you want?


Um, the back rub bit was a joke, I thought that was obvious. And let's move away from the cheating discussion that really isn't what I was saying this was.

To understand the "that kind of girl" thing you'd have to realize I thought she was super conservative. Even the getting naked part was a bit of a shock when she first told me.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Balance .... i have to ask.

You and your wife were virgins and waited for marriage.

Did you and your wife do any heavy petting prior to marriage?

Did either of you have an orgasm with each other prior to marriage?

If so, do you still consider that you waited for marriage to have sex?


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> Balance .... i have to ask.
> 
> You and your wife were virgins and waited for marriage.
> 
> ...


Good question. I'm not sure I can remember when we had orgasms but I think it's safe to say we didn't really wait until we were married to have sex. We just didn't have intercourse.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

I think several of the posters here have boiled the facts here down to a minimal level, imposed their own world-view, and missed much of what I consider to be relevant. So I'll go back over the original post and point out some information that I think is relevant.



BALANCE said:


> My wife and I were both raised in conservative, Christian homes and were committed to staying virgins until we were married.


Very few conservative Christian households define sex narrowly as P-in-V intercourse and everything else is fair game. It's fair to assume that premarital lustful activity (oral, manual, naked play) was seen as sinful.



BALANCE said:


> While we were dating my wife told me she had to break it off with her Ex because things got too physical (sexually). She seemed pretty upset about it, so I asked her what she meant. She described heavy petting, making out and taking each others cloths off and spending the night with him. I asked if they had had sex and she said no they didn't, that "nothing happened."


The wife was so upset about her activities with the ex, she ended the relationship. That seems inconsistent with the position that she just didn't think of her activities as sexual or sinful. If she thinks it's no big deal today, why did she think it was a big deal then? What changed?



BALANCE said:


> Anyway, fast forward 12 years later. We're married. I'm laying in bed half asleep and she randomly asks, "When do you think it counts as having sex?" I said if one person brings another person to orgasim, they've had sex (not sure it was a great definition of sex, but whatever).
> 
> She goes, "Oh I've done that." Since we've been married for awhile, I chuckle and say, "Yes you have." Then she says no, I mean with someone else. So now I'm fully awake. After asking a few questions she tells me that she used to give her boyfriend hand jobs.


She brings up the topic of handjobs after 12 years. This seems very curious to me. Why would she do this? If the topic had been covered before and she wasn't hiding anything, why bring it up again? Is she sadistic and she enjoys pointing out her past exploits to her husband? If so, why hasn't she done it before now?

I think a more plausible explanation is that she felt guilty for allowing her husband to believe that "nothing happened" with her ex-boyfriend, when, according to their religion, a definite "something" happened.

Now, I think that the OP should have pursued this line of questioning 12 years ago before marriage. If premarital abstinence is very important to you, then you should get an inventory of exactly what your future spouse has and has not done to avoid confusion. At this point, there's not much you can do about it.

However, I don't think that posters who state, "Here is my world-view, you must subscribe to it," are very helpful. Since the OP is, or was, a conservative Christian, advising him to abandon his religion, or at least certain tenets of it, won't do him much good.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

BALANCE said:


> You're right, it is unfair. She didn't lie she just didn't tell me everything. She didn't tell me because she didn't want to go into all the details. I get that.
> 
> It seems most people on here think it's no big deal. It really isn't a big deal for me now, but I wonder why I reacted the way I did?


I suspected you reacted due to surprise. You had an image of your wife at the point she initial told you about this. Sounds like she may have omitted some details or used some vague words to better fit the image she wanted to convey. You suddenly find out what sounds like a very casual way and without warning that your interpreted this wrong. 

I would apologize, explain that this surprised you and you reacted poorly, and then move on.

Edit - my advice is based on your other posts where you state you don't think the actual HJ was a big deal.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> It IS the same when you are single or married. Not sex. It would however be cheating if done while married with someone else. Why you want to compare the two is beyond me....kind of like apples to q-tips.


You're completely missing the point. You've stated that his wife is justified in her blase attitude about hand jobs because it's not sex. I think she would change her definition of sex if her husband were getting hand jobs from another woman. She would most certainly revise her casual attitude toward hand jobs. Capiche?



Therealbrighteyes said:


> She said heavy petting and he thought she meant a back rub? Come on. That kind of girl? She was honest from the get go....what more do you want?


She said, "nothing happened." I don't call a hand job "nothing." If she had said, "We got naked, petted, and I gave him a hand job to completion," the OP would have had a very different picture than he was left with when she said, "We got naked, petted, and nothing happened." I would prefer for a woman, or man, when asked about prior sexual exploits by a potential spouse, to be upfront and honest, not to play semantic games where your definition of a word isn't the same as my definition of a word.

I'm not advising the OP to make this a big deal with his wife, but he sure doesn't have to apologize for getting upset about it.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> However, I don't think that posters who state, "Here is my world-view, you must subscribe to it," are very helpful. Since the OP is, or was, a conservative Christian, advising him to abandon his religion, or at least certain tenets of it, won't do him much good.


No, it's much better to offer uninformed speculation about his wife's motivations, liken what happened 12 years ago when she was single to contemporary infidelity, make assumptions about others' faith and state that letting go of this is tantamount to abandoning one's religion.
That kind of hyperbole is exactly what was needed here.

Oh, and I would guess the OP came here seeking a wide range of opinions, not just those that conform to his world view.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

BALANCE said:


> You're right, it is unfair. She didn't lie she just didn't tell me everything. She didn't tell me because she didn't want to go into all the details. I get that.
> 
> It seems most people on here think it's no big deal. It really isn't a big deal for me now, but I wonder why I reacted the way I did?


Perhaps it is not about the past but the present and future. Your sexual connection is poor at this point and you are angry and frustrated. Perhaps you grabbed the revelation as a convenient vehicle to express the natural anger and frustration that a sex starved relationship brings? 

Another thing, she does not want to have sex with you so I assume she does not object to giving you hj's, right? It is not sex. ;~}
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Yes a hand job counts as sex.

As for 'sexual past' discussions, unless there's a reason, that's a place I really do not think couples should go. Talking with one's spouse about details of what one did with one's past partners is _never_ going to end well. However, that said, there may well be things a spouse needs to know, or to at least know that the other spouse knows. My husband is a sex addict, so his sexual past has been a topic of more discussion in the last year than it ever has before. I have asked because I need to know in order to make a decision about whether I can live with this man for the rest of my life or not.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

BALANCE said:


> Good question. I'm not sure I can remember when we had orgasms but I think it's safe to say we didn't really wait until we were married to have sex. We just didn't have intercourse.


When she described what happened with her ex as:

"She described heavy petting, making out and taking each others cloths off and spending the night with him."

I would be thinking that they probably had sex (by your definition). 

I don't think she kept anything from you. Since you define sex as to include hand jobs, I have a hard time believing that you could think that they engaged in heavy petting and taking each others cloths off and spending the night together without engaging in some kind of sex.


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

Come on people .... she told him they engaged in heavy petting and taking each other's cloths off and spending the night together.

What do you think this means? No sex at all? 

It might be 30 years ago since I was young in a new relationship, but I remember that once you are at the point of getting naked and some heavy petting going on, it typically didn't end in a 'back rub'.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> No, it's much better to offer uninformed speculation about his wife's motivations, ...


:slap:
I'm uninformed? Have you been messaging the OP? Please let me know if you have some extra information that the OP hasn't published in this thread. As for his wife's motivations, I'll agree that I'm speculating. I would have thought that it was obvious that we're all speculating.

Tell me, is it common for you, or people you know to bring up sensitive subjects from many years ago? Why do you think the wife would have brought up her permarital sexual exploits?



FrankKissel said:


> ... liken what happened 12 years ago when she was single to contemporary infidelity, ...


I'm comparing a hand job to a hand job.



FrankKissel said:


> ... make assumptions about others' faith and state that letting go of this is tantamount to abandoning one's religion.


:lol: Seriously? You think that conservative Christians who believe that premarital abstinence is important advocate premarital hand jobs? That's too big of a leap for you?

If you don't like the word "abandon," I'll give you the opportunity to use whatever word you want to use to advise the OP to change his current or former religious beliefs. Should he "modify" them to better suit your tastes? Perhaps he should "correct" them?



FrankKissel said:


> That kind of hyperbole is exactly what was needed here.


It's probably more useful than advising him to "reform" his religion.



FrankKissel said:


> Oh, and I would guess the OP came here seeking a wide range of opinions, not just those that conform to his world view.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If only everyone were so tolerant.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

BALANCE said:


> It seems most people on here think it's no big deal. It really isn't a big deal for me now, but I wonder why I reacted the way I did?


Maybe you responded this way because you are afraid she brought this up like she did just because it would put you on edge? She keeps letting you know that she is a sexual person, just not with you right now.


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## FormerlyCareFree (Nov 25, 2011)

jayde said:


> A huge fight over your wife giving hand jobs to BFs before you were married?
> 
> Really.


It's the fact that she LIED about it. Get it?


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## SadSamIAm (Oct 29, 2010)

FormerlyCareFree said:


> It's the fact that she LIED about it. Get it?


Where did she lie about it? 

Did I miss where she said, "I have never given a hand job"


She said heavy petting, getting naked, spending the night .... 

Is it really a leap to think that included a 'hand job'? 

I think most people would think that is the minimum that happened between a boyfriend and girlfriend that are in this circumstance.


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## Jen S (Nov 10, 2011)

Well, I don't think they count as sex, just my opinion. On the topic of sharing your past, I made the mistake of telling my (now) husband way too much when we were dating. I thought honesty was the best policy, but he definitely resented some of it and sometimes still does when he wants me to do something I did before I met him.


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## FormerlyCareFree (Nov 25, 2011)

SadSamIAm said:


> Where did she lie about it?
> 
> Did I miss where she said, "I have never given a hand job"
> 
> ...


She lied during the marriage, obviously, otherwise he wouldn't had been that upset over it. It's also obvious they had a discussion about it prior to getting married because it was important for him to know this information about his potential future wife. That is why he considered it lying.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> :slap:
> I'm uninformed? Have you been messaging the OP? Please let me know if you have some extra information that the OP hasn't published in this thread. As for his wife's motivations, I'll agree that I'm speculating. I would have thought that it was obvious that we're all speculating.
> 
> Tell me, is it common for you, or people you know to bring up sensitive subjects from many years ago? Why do you think the wife would have brought up her permarital sexual exploits?
> ...


So, in your mind, all hand jobs are created equal? One that occurred more than a decade ago when she was single is no different than one received by a married man? There's no conext in your world? Give me a break. Even you don't believe that.
I'd venture to guess that if he got one from a coworker today, it wouldn't be the physical act that bothered her, it would be the infidelity.

And good Lord, would you please show me where in this thread anyone suggested he abandon or 'reform' his religion? Hint: you won't find it. Personally, I'd like to think the tenents of any religious person's faith extends beyond whether or not premarital petting is sinful.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Friend,

Your reading too much into your wife's behavior...well...because your too involved, and that always clouds judgement.

This is easily explained from a psychological standpoint.....

Your wife felt comfortable talking to you. Take that as a plus in your marriage. The reason why it was out of the blue is that she 1. First recollected the incident as it happened. So her mind reacted to the incident as she remembered...that is, hand jobs are considered part of heavy petting....no sex....just fooling around. This would be how she initially explained it, because it was fresh in her mind....being recalled exactly as it went down in her mind.

2. And this is how your brain works. She starting thinking about the incident as she thinks now....more experienced....more mature. So...after several days, weeks of processing her past experience in her mind using her current life's knowledge, she brought up the subject again. It just took you aback a bit. 

Try it yourself,mate. Think of something you did as a teenager, and why you Did it. Then, think about it for a long while. Eventually, your brain will reprocess the information using your current life's knowledge and experience. after a while, you'll actually reprocess your memories differently.

This is just natural. How your brain works. Which would explain hw you perceive the difference in attitude.

She must feel really comfortable with you to bring it up like that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega (Nov 7, 2010)

Ironically, this is how a wayward rewrites history of a marriage in thier mind. Things are soo sooo awesome with the OM/ow that everything from my current marriage must suck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I still don't see the big deal. Punishing someone for the past is just lame. Move forward. There's a lot of crap people do in their past that they don't broadcast to their present partners. What business is it of theirs anyway? I never asked about Hubs' past. He offered some information, but i didn't want to hear it. Our lives together have nothing to do with our pasts.


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## Mistys dad (Dec 2, 2011)

It sounds to me like she was trying to open up to you. She may have ideas about what she would like to be doing with you, and is not comfortable asking straight out.

She approached you like a woman, you responded like a teenager. 

You may have been better off putting a twinkle in your eye and saying "Show me first, then I'll decide if it counts". Good sex doesn't just happen, it's cultivated.

I don't know details many about my wife's past. I just enjoy the person who does wonderful things with the knowledge she gained in her life.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

PHTlump said:


> You're completely missing the point. You've stated that his wife is justified in her blase attitude about hand jobs because it's not sex. I think she would change her definition of sex if her husband were getting hand jobs from another woman. She would most certainly revise her casual attitude toward hand jobs. Capiche?
> 
> 
> She said, "nothing happened." I don't call a hand job "nothing." If she had said, "We got naked, petted, and I gave him a hand job to completion," the OP would have had a very different picture than he was left with when she said, "We got naked, petted, and nothing happened." I would prefer for a woman, or man, when asked about prior sexual exploits by a potential spouse, to be upfront and honest, not to play semantic games where your definition of a word isn't the same as my definition of a word.
> ...


Just to be clear, you are suggesting that what she did prior to meeting her husband would be the same as if she did this while married? You're joking right? 
She also said that they got hot and heavy, took their clothes off, heavy petting and they spent the night together. When asked if sex occurred she responded with no, nothing happened. Just implies SEX didn't happen, not that nothing else did. She was pretty honest about her past. She didn't exactly say they stayed up all night reading poetry.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

The wife minimized what she did with her ex-boyfriend. 

A hand job is considered sex. I doubt you'll get away with saying it's not when in front of a judge where you're a prostitute or caught with one.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

aug said:


> The wife minimized what she did with her ex-boyfriend.
> 
> A hand job is considered sex. I doubt you'll get away with saying it's not when in front of a judge where you're a prostitute or caught with one.


Yeah because borrowing sugar from your neighbor is the same as shoplifting it from the grocery store.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

aug said:


> The wife minimized what she did with her ex-boyfriend.
> 
> A hand job is considered sex. I doubt you'll get away with saying it's not when in front of a judge where you're a prostitute or caught with one.


Holy crap! I didn't realize people went on trial when they started dating. Jesuss.

Maybe she didn't think it was his business. The past is the PAST. It was a handjob. Good lord.


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## Therealbrighteyes (Feb 11, 2010)

that_girl said:


> Holy crap! I didn't realize people went on trial when they started dating. Jesuss.


No, they just get compared to hookers.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

aug said:


> The wife minimized what she did with her ex-boyfriend.
> 
> A hand job is considered sex. I doubt you'll get away with saying it's not when in front of a judge where you're a prostitute or caught with one.


A hand job is considered sex? By who? You? You're the decider here?

She minimized? Hmm ... OK. She merely said they got naked and described heavy petting. Really, how could anyone guess that might mean touching of genitalia? I mean, besides the naked and petting parts. Or do you believe heavy petting means a good shoulder rub? The kind that requires nudity.

Oh ... and your prostitution analogy is an awful one. Sex is not required to be charged and convicted of prostitution.


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

To me, I use the term sex much the same as you. Anything involving two people and at least one orgasm.

But the funny things about words, is that everyone puts their personal spin on the meaning. My wife considers sex to be penis-vaginal intercourse, with or without orgasm. To each their own.

In regards to spouse sexual history... I dont think you have any right to judge someone based upon their actions before you even met them. Easier said than done, I know.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

The thing is, if there is a problem in the marriage, why focus on something that happened before they even met? Work on the marriage and stop making her feel bad or wrong for her past. That WON'T help healing at all. In fact, it will probably just piss her off more.


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## Voiceofreason (Mar 6, 2011)

Come on people, you are replaying the entire national debate when former word-parsing President Clinton said he "didn't have sex with that woman." There was much disagreement whether him allowing Monica to go down on him was sex. They said in the south that was just considered an "Arkansas Howdy"!

Reasonable minds may differ whether a HJ or BJ is "sex." For me, I'm firmly in the yes it is sex camp. Touching another person's organs and arousing them to orgasm? You bet.


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I think several of the posters here have boiled the facts here down to a minimal level, imposed their own world-view, and missed much of what I consider to be relevant. So I'll go back over the original post and point out some information that I think is relevant.
> 
> 
> Very few conservative Christian households define sex narrowly as P-in-V intercourse and everything else is fair game. It's fair to assume that premarital lustful activity (oral, manual, naked play) was seen as sinful.
> ...


Thank you, that does sum it up better than I explained it. I did actually "persue this line of questioning 12 years ago" but always got the same answer, "nothing happened." Thats why it seemed so shocking when she finally said, "something happened."

Anyhoo, I'm not trying to punisher her, it's not even an issue now. It was just a strange arguement and I thought I'd get some insights.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Voiceofreason said:


> Come on people, you are replaying the entire national debate when former word-parsing President Clinton said he "didn't have sex with that woman." There was much disagreement whether him allowing Monica to go down on him was sex. They said in the south that was just considered an "Arkansas Howdy"!
> 
> Reasonable minds may differ whether a HJ or BJ is "sex." For me, I'm firmly in the yes it is sex camp. Touching another person's organs and arousing them to orgasm? You bet.



I wonder if HJ or BJ is not sex, is anal?


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

BALANCE said:


> Yeah, I assumed it meant a back rub, maybe a little talk about the day and then roll over and go to sleep. Thats what she does with me.


Ouch!


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

Mistys dad said:


> It sounds to me like she was trying to open up to you. She may have ideas about what she would like to be doing with you, and is not comfortable asking straight out.
> 
> She approached you like a woman, you responded like a teenager.
> 
> You may have been better off putting a twinkle in your eye and saying "Show me first, then I'll decide if it counts". Good sex doesn't just happen, it's cultivated.


Love this! Best advice. 

This isn't really about a HJ Balanced, is it??? As other have noted, it's more about bigger problems in your marriage. Christian beliefs or not, if things were better between you and your wife, her 'confession' of stroking off a boyfriend during the last millenium would not have escalated into a 'huge fight'. 

Think through this - and think about the process of your communication with her - and try to put aside the content. Her tone of voice, the context of the conversation - was she really trying to engage you in a more general discussion of sexual beliefs or, was she trying to piss you off? What was your response? Were you already looking for an argument and this was a convenient topic? In other words, what was the predisposition of both of you that preceeded this 'huge argumemnt' and how much of that was the cause of it versus the actual content (HJ or no HJ).

The other thing to note is that although the HJ happened 12 years ago, this is brand new news to you and as such, your reaction would be different than if you knew about the HJ 12 years ago and this was being brought up again. Which might justify some of your alarm/anger/whatever - but keep it in the context that it was before you, and in the end, just a hand job.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> So, in your mind, all hand jobs are created equal? One that occurred more than a decade ago when she was single is no different than one received by a married man? There's no conext in your world? Give me a break. Even you don't believe that.


Never said I did.



FrankKissel said:


> I'd venture to guess that if he got one from a coworker today, it wouldn't be the physical act that bothered her, it would be the infidelity.


You mean, you're going to make assumptions as to her reaction? 



FrankKissel said:


> And good Lord, would you please show me where in this thread anyone suggested he abandon or 'reform' his religion? Hint: you won't find it.


Just look for any of the posts stating that premarital hand jobs aren't a big deal. That they aren't sex. That premarital sex isn't a problem, etc. Those positions are inconsistent with the beliefs of most conservative Christians.



FrankKissel said:


> Personally, I'd like to think the tenents of any religious person's faith extends beyond whether or not premarital petting is sinful.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Of course they do. I never said they didn't. But just because a religion consists of many different tenets doesn't mean that practitioners of that religion should just pick and choose which ones are most convenient to follow.

To use another analogy, which I realize is playing with fire on this board, let's say the OP came here asking for advice on Christmas presents for his wife. He states that he has a budget of $20. That is the framework within which we should work. Obviously, any suggestions that he get her expensive jewelry, an iPad, a car, or any other item outside of his budget is a waste of bandwidth. Similarly, when a person comes on the forum stating that he is a conservative Christian who believed that his wife had a much more limited sexual history than it turns out she really does have, and he's upset about it, we should approach the issue within the framework of Biblical teachings. It is completely unhelpful to state that, if the OP just abandons his belief that premarital sex is sinful, he wouldn't have the problem he currently faces.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Just to be clear, you are suggesting that what she did prior to meeting her husband would be the same as if she did this while married? You're joking right?


Yes. I was joking. Obviously every hand job is unique and individual. Like snowflakes. There are obviously no comparisons that can ever be made between two hand jobs. A person really can't have an attitude toward hand jobs in general. People have to adapt their attitudes toward each and every specific hand job. I'm glad you got the joke. I'll refrain from making jokes using generalizations, or God forbid, analogies, in the future.



Therealbrighteyes said:


> She also said that they got hot and heavy, took their clothes off, heavy petting and they spent the night together. When asked if sex occurred she responded with no, nothing happened. Just implies SEX didn't happen, not that nothing else did. She was pretty honest about her past. She didn't exactly say they stayed up all night reading poetry.


You're correct that she didn't represent her night as reading poetry. That's why the OP was not left with the impression that they read poetry. But I will indulge you in your fondness for playing semantic games.

The OP asked her if she had sex and she responded that, "nothing happened." You think that she meant that she didn't have intercourse, but all kinds of other stuff obviously happened. But that's the opposite of what she said. She could have said, "no" to the question and have a better case for leaving out the non-intercourse sexual activities. But she went beyond that. Merriam Webster defines nothing as, "not any thing, or no part."

If I were to make another joke here, I could ask you if you've eaten lunch. If you respond by saying you've eaten nothing, that means you haven't had anything to eat. It doesn't mean that you've had an appetizer, a salad, and some bread, but no entree. If you've eaten those things and tell me that you've eaten nothing, you would be lying. Sorry about that. Here I go pledging to avoid analogies and I can't even get through a single post.


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

jayde said:


> Love this! Best advice.
> 
> This isn't really about a HJ Balanced, is it??? As other have noted, it's more about bigger problems in your marriage. Christian beliefs or not, if things were better between you and your wife, her 'confession' of stroking off a boyfriend during the last millenium would not have escalated into a 'huge fight'.
> 
> ...


It wasn't something said within a different argument. As far as I remember I was half asleep and she was reading in bed and she just randomly shared this information.

After reading these posts, specifically ones like yours, here is what I'm going to take way from this.

Remove sex from the equation altogether.

My wife was feeling comfortable with me, she felt safe enough to talk about something she had never shared with me before (possibly something she had never told anybody before) It was a gift of trust and vulnerability and instead of accepting it as such I acted like a jealous child. She opened a door to me and I slammed it shut in her face. Shame on me. I have apologized for this in the past but I think now I have a better understanding of what I did to her, how I hurt her.

Maybe now I'll do a little better next time she opens up to me.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

BALANCE said:


> It wasn't something said within a different argument. As far as I remember I was half asleep and she was reading in bed and she just randomly shared this information.
> 
> After reading these posts, specifically ones like yours, here is what I'm going to take way from this.
> 
> ...


Balance,

I think a few of the responses are from people who don't see if this connects in some way to your previous posts. 

Remember your post where she was coming to bed nearly nude, but getting angry if you interpreted the change of bedtime attire sexually?

So, you are in the middle of reading, after years of marriage, and she suddenly finds it relevant to blurt out that she gave hand jobs to other people? She owned the story that she chose to tell you before. The handjobs are not important, but her version of the story before was that you were her first real, bona fide sexual experience. I'd be more interested in why she chose now to suddenly reveal something new. Why did she choose now to suddenly start wearing nothing but a thong to bed at times? Isn't it odd that all of this is coming about after a discussion where she asked if the two of you could take sex completely off the table? When she's not sure if she wants to let the resentment go?

Some people are really good at communicating a lot while saying nothing at all. This type of passive aggressive behavior often follows a script. If you take the approach that 'she opened a door and you slammed it shut', just hope she doesn't open the door to telling you about the time that she recently fantasized about having sex with another man. I'm not suggesting that she has had this fantasy, but only that the usual script seems to eventually include blatant barbs. Only you can understand if she is following a resentment-speak script. People who didn't take the time to read your other posts, and blame you for being a little on the edge, can't answer the meaning of this for you.


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

Halien said:


> Balance,
> 
> I think a few of the responses are from people who don't see if this connects in some way to your previous posts.
> 
> ...


ONe important thing to note is that it's hard for me to lay out the timeline of our relationship. This "event" happened almost two years ago, actually pretty close to when things started going downhill. Taking sex off the table happened 6 months ago.

Also, she has already openly shared about having fantasies about other men. Even men I know. Is that generally considered insensitive or do most people share that type of stuff?


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

BALANCE said:


> ONe important thing to note is that it's hard for me to lay out the timeline of our relationship. This "event" happened almost two years ago, actually pretty close to when things started going downhill. Taking sex off the table happened 6 months ago.
> 
> Also, she has already openly shared about having fantasies about other men. Even men I know. Is that generally considered insensitive or do most people share that type of stuff?


In the context of her taking sex off the table, yeah, its insensitive. In the context of a healthy sexual relationship between the two of you, maybe its best to keep the names out of it. But yes, I think she is following a script with you. I'm sorry, but just my opinion. I really thought that it was inevitable that she would ultimately suddenly share fantasies of sex with men you know - because it just seems to be following a retaliation model of behavior from her resentment.


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

Halien said:


> In the context of her taking sex off the table, yeah, its insensitive. In the context of a healthy sexual relationship between the two of you, maybe its best to keep the names out of it. But yes, I think she is following a script with you. I'm sorry, but just my opinion. I really thought that it was inevitable that she would ultimately suddenly share fantasies of sex with men you know - because she knows exactly how it will make you feel as a conservative Christian.


OK, again I messed up on the timeline. I don't think she's shared that stuff in the past 6 months, since sex is off the table. But definitely earlier in the marriage up to a couple years ago she would share that sort of thing.


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

Halien said:


> In the context of her taking sex off the table, yeah, its insensitive. In the context of a healthy sexual relationship between the two of you, maybe its best to keep the names out of it. But yes, I think she is following a script with you. I'm sorry, but just my opinion. I really thought that it was inevitable that she would ultimately suddenly share fantasies of sex with men you know - because she knows exactly how it will make you feel as a conservative Christian.


Can you explain "a script?" What do you mean?


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Thanks Halien for bringing this thread into context and in presenting the bigger picture.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

BALANCE said:


> Can you explain "a script?" What do you mean?


Keep in mind that I'm only sharing an opinion. Only you can know what's going on. When your threads started popping up, the common theme is your wife's resentment, and the fact that she feels like there is no hope for real happiness, at least when she is at her lowest. Resentment isn't a neutral feeling. It gets expressed in some way - usually. The most common way is lashing out, unless you are just the type of person who doesn't lash out in anger usually. So, what are her options? The script I've usually learned about in all of the many conflict resolution hours spent as a manager is through progressive verbal barbs, striking you where you are most vulnerable. Insults are too direct for some people. Passive aggressives use the truth to hit you where you are weakest. She is actually really listening to you when you say that you want to fix the marriage, and the sex life. This is now a big want for you. If she 'lets it slip' that she is interested in things that don't include you, she's getting a very big point across, isn't she? 

If you think that there could be some merit to this, you can confront her and tell her that you are tired of the games. But it won't work unless you are confident in the fact that this is what is happening. Otherwise, your best approach, in my opinion, is to ask for her support in only speaking to each other in a way that values each other. Let her know that these things hurt, and seem deliberate. She's a good person at heart, just hurting. Nobody enjoys an unhappy marriage, obviously.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

Voiceofreason said:


> Come on people, you are replaying the entire national debate when former word-parsing President Clinton said he "didn't have sex with that woman." There was much disagreement whether him allowing Monica to go down on him was sex. They said in the south that was just considered an "Arkansas Howdy"!
> 
> Reasonable minds may differ whether a HJ or BJ is "sex." For me, I'm firmly in the yes it is sex camp. Touching another person's organs and arousing them to orgasm? You bet.


So, if a woman did this and NO intercourse, then she's no longer a virgin? 

:rofl:
Whatever. Sex is what you make it. HJs are sexual...but sex? lol not for the giver it's not


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

BALANCE said:


> ONe important thing to note is that it's hard for me to lay out the timeline of our relationship. This "event" happened almost two years ago, actually pretty close to when things started going downhill. Taking sex off the table happened 6 months ago. *For me, I find that it's important to be able to go back and understand what was happening and when it happened in an attempt to understand actions today. This is not the same as re-hashing things. But, if you do this, you need to be sure about what really happened and when, and don't start rewritting your own history to suit what you want today.*
> 
> Also, she has already openly shared about having fantasies about other men. Even men I know. Is that generally considered insensitive or do most people share that type of stuff?


OK, so she comes to bed naked but gets mad if you want sex while she's naked. She's reading in bed while you're half-asleep and starts a discussion about HJ for old boyfriends. AND she's spoke to you about sexual fanatasies with other men. AND sex has been off the table for the past 6 months. Really.

Holy confusion Batman! Either you're not explaining something or have selective memory, OR she's really, really trying to mess with your head, OR she's giving you some really really really confusing signals (and she wants you more than you can imagine), OR all of the above.


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

jayde said:


> OK, so she comes to bed naked but gets mad if you want sex while she's naked. She's reading in bed while you're half-asleep and starts a discussion about HJ for old boyfriends. AND she's spoke to you about sexual fanatasies with other men. AND sex has been off the table for the past 6 months. Really.
> 
> Holy confusion Batman! Either you're not explaining something or have selective memory, OR she's really, really trying to mess with your head, OR she's giving you some really really really confusing signals (and she wants you more than you can imagine), OR all of the above.


TO THE BATCAVE ROBIN!

Obviously this is how I remember the events and is not a completely fair representation of our relationship. I'm confident that our issues with sex are not about an incompatibility between our sex drives. She is sexual and needs sex. I imagine it has been confusing for her too. She longs for that intimacy but has been hurt enough to feel cautious about opening herself up in that way. Thus she sends mixed signals.


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## tjohnson (Mar 10, 2010)

I think it is great the 2 of you waited till marriage.
I also think you are well within your rights (given your mutual commitment to stay virgins) to question her things given the circumstances so I don’t think you should be judged as crazy by other posters…
Having said that if she disclosed that she had been engaged in “heavy petting” (prior to marriage) ..think that required some exploration at that point if that really mattered. Obviously that would include mutual genital stimulation. If you it mattered if one or both of them climaxed, then perhaps you should have asked then…yes? Personally, I am not sure the significance. 
I think your wife still was a virgin by definition (even if one would argue that what she did was sex). It is difficult of where to draw the line. I mean what if as a teanager a boy dry humped her leg while kissing and blew his load in his pants…..is that sex. As others noted some would consider kissing a sexual act.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

BALANCE said:


> TO THE BATCAVE ROBIN!
> 
> Obviously this is how I remember the events and is not a completely fair representation of our relationship. I'm confident that our issues with sex are not about an incompatibility between our sex drives. She is sexual and needs sex. I imagine it has been confusing for her too. She longs for that intimacy but has been hurt enough to feel cautious about opening herself up in that way. Thus she sends mixed signals.


Balance, I've read the whole post and unless I missed it along the way, you still didn't mention WHY she mentioned something that happened over 12 years ago..or what even made her think about her ex ? Have you talked to her about why she was thinking about premarital relationships... Because frankly I can't remember half of my experiences from before my h (albeit it was over 17 years ago!!!)


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

2sick said:


> Balance, I've read the whole post and unless I missed it along the way, you still didn't mention WHY she mentioned something that happened over 12 years ago..or what even made her think about her ex ? Have you talked to her about why she was thinking about premarital relationships... Because frankly I can't remember half of my experiences from before my h (albeit it was over 17 years ago!!!)


Huh. I'm not sure I ever asked her that. Do you think I should? It seems like it would be asking for a butt load of hurt. Plus she'd probably just say she can't remember or that I forced her to say it or something.


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## 2sick (Nov 5, 2010)

BALANCE said:


> Huh. I'm not sure I ever asked her that. Do you think I should? It seems like it would be asking for a butt load of hurt. Plus she'd probably just say she can't remember or that I forced her to say it or something.


You are probably right... It might bring a butt load of hurt... but by not addressing it, it won't go away just fester. I only bring it up because I find it puzzling that out of the blue she would think about it. Hopefully nothing hurtful comes up but can't hide from it if there is some underlying issue.


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## CalifGuy (Nov 2, 2011)

I am soooo late to this thread but I'll chime in anyway.

Personally, I thought the wife was deceitful in not disclosing the handjobs to her hubby. 

For those wives that say handjobs are not sex, I guess you wouldn't mind if your hubby went and got happy endings at the local massage parlor from young Asian women?

For the husbands that say handjobs are not sex, can your wife lend me a hand?

In my own marriage, I was misled when my wife (then fiancee) failed to disclose that she was cheating on her last serious boyfriend of four years by having an affair for the last few months of the relationship. In her own mind, she justified it by the fact that she and that boyfriend, although living together, had not had sex for years (emotional issues/past abuse he suffered screwed him up, he was on antidepressants and he was into porn).

Meanwhile, I disclosed each and every skeleton in my own closet....all the times I cheated on my first wife, cheating on my previous girlfriend of 15 months (really, having a full time second girlfriend on the side that the first GF was unaware of), and plenty of other dirt on myself. My own flawed logic told me that this would either send her running for the hills or that she would trust me, entirely for my honesty...well, instead, neither happened...she neither ran for the hills nor trusted me entirely...not even close! In fact, she trusts me less than any other woman ever has, yet she is the only woman I have never cheated on...go figure.

Anyway, I would have preferred my wife had been more honest with me yet she claims that she legitimately "forgot" that she had cheated on her ex-boyfriend (I came across the love letters she was writing to the other guy). It just feels like a double standard to me that I disclosed everything while she kept a secret.

And, I do see how people have different definitions of what sex is...my wife's vocabulary, for example, of "making out" can include a blowjob, while in my own vocabularly, making out means merely kissing and maybe fondling through clothes.

But, I agree that anything that brings about an orgasm IS sex, as is a failed attempt at an orgasm should one party prove clueless or incapable! lol


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## LimboGirl (Oct 28, 2011)

CalifGuy,

I'm confused. Aren't you and current wife or GF in the lifestyle? Or I'm I thinking of someone else. The reason I ask is by most people's definition you "cheat" on your wife/GF. It is just so obvious that different people have different meanings of words. I would automatically assume that a heavy petting went to completion, otherwise it would be light petting.


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## CalifGuy (Nov 2, 2011)

LimboGirl said:


> CalifGuy,
> 
> I'm confused. Aren't you and current wife or GF in the lifestyle? Or I'm I thinking of someone else. The reason I ask is by most people's definition you "cheat" on your wife/GF. It is just so obvious that different people have different meanings of words. I would automatically assume that a heavy petting went to completion, otherwise it would be light petting.


We have been together for 3.5 years...after 6 months together, we entered the lifestyle for about a year but maybe went a bit overboard and burned out on it. While there were some hot experiences, there was also our share of drama with each other.

For the last two years, we have NOT been in the lifestyle.

As far as cheating on each other goes, well, I think only my wife and I can define what is cheating on each other and neither of us has cheated on each other. To each his/her own on the definition of cheating.


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## LimboGirl (Oct 28, 2011)

CalifGuy said:


> We have been together for 3.5 years...after 6 months together, we entered the lifestyle for about a year but maybe went a bit overboard and burned out on it. While there were some hot experiences, there was also our share of drama with each other.
> 
> For the last two years, we have NOT been in the lifestyle.
> 
> As far as cheating on each other goes, well, I think only my wife and I can define what is cheating on each other and neither of us has cheated on each other. To each his/her own on the definition of cheating.


Exactly. Different people have different meanings. Never thought heavy petting didn't mean a finished hand job. If it's not finished and that's all your going to do what's the point?


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

CalifGuy said:


> I am soooo late to this thread but I'll chime in anyway.
> 
> Personally, I thought the wife was deceitful in not disclosing the handjobs to her hubby.
> 
> ...


You're the second person who's compared what his wife did 12 years ago - when she was single and even before she met her current husband - to marital infidelity. It's not comparable. Not even close.


And defining sex as something you wouldn't want your spouse to do to someone else is silly. I'd mind if my wife gave another guy a foot massage. But I wouldn't call it sex.


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## CalifGuy (Nov 2, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> I'd mind if my wife gave another guy a foot massage. But I wouldn't call it sex.


If the guy came in his pants because it was SUCH a good foot massage, would it then be called sex?!


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

CalifGuy said:


> If the guy came in his pants because it was SUCH a good foot massage, would it then be called sex?!


I'll TAKE IT! :smthumbup:


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

CalifGuy said:


> If the guy came in his pants because it was SUCH a good foot massage, would it then be called sex?!


Still wouldn't call it sex. I would, however, ask when it's my turn.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

CalifGuy said:


> If the guy came in his pants because it was SUCH a good foot massage, would it then be called sex?!


This is straight out of Pulp Fiction


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> You're the second person who's compared what his wife did 12 years ago - when she was single and even before she met her current husband - to marital infidelity. It's not comparable. Not even close.
> 
> 
> And defining sex as something you wouldn't want your spouse to do to someone else is silly. I'd mind if my wife gave another guy a foot massage. But I wouldn't call it sex.


Giving a foot massage is not technically sex. Neither is a deep kiss and groping while dancing. BUT it is sexual activity. 

So it depends on context and individual boundaries whether it is appropriate or not.

Now this thread is really just someone mentally playing with themselves. Does a hand job count as sex? How presidential that argument is. It depends how we define the word "is" I guess.

I think she told him enough. Life is shades of gray. Or is it grey? She slept with the guy naked and gave him a handjob. We can safely assume there was more than just that frankly but maybe there was not penetration but I would not bet the farm on that either. But hey WTH if she is telling the truth now then he needs to just get over it. If she banged the guy then she is a liar and he would have reason to be upset about that.

Then there is why is she bringing it up now .... maybe the most significant question.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

So, if a HJ is not sex, then how about this...

An underage female to giving an mature adult male a HJ?


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

aug said:


> So, if a HJ is not sex, then how about this...
> 
> An underage female to giving an mature adult male a HJ?


That would make him a sex offender.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

FrankKissel said:


> You're the second person who's compared what his wife did 12 years ago - when she was single and even before she met her current husband - to marital infidelity. It's not comparable. Not even close.


Now, don't throw me into that. I've already admitted that I was joking. I'm on your side. You obviously can't compare a hand job to ... a hand job. That's what made my joke so funny. 



FrankKissel said:


> And defining sex as something you wouldn't want your spouse to do to someone else is silly. I'd mind if my wife gave another guy a foot massage. But I wouldn't call it sex.


So you object to comparing hand jobs to other hand jobs, but comparing hand jobs to foot massages is OK? Are you joking too? :scratchhead:


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Entropy3000 said:


> Now this thread is really just someone mentally playing with themselves. Does a hand job count as sex? How presidential that argument is. It depends how we define the word "is" I guess.


I've noticed that too. What I find interesting is that, fifteen years ago, suggesting that BJs were not sex was laughable. Now, there are people on this board adamant that everything outside of intercourse can be excluded from the definition of sex.



Entropy3000 said:


> Then there is why is she bringing it up now .... maybe the most significant question.


Exactly. From the poster who read the OP's other thread, it sounds like the wife is just trying to twist the knife and upset the OP.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

aug said:


> So, if a HJ is not sex, then how about this...
> 
> An underage female to giving an mature adult male a HJ?


An adult male groping the chest of an underage female over her sweater would also make him a sex offender. Does that make it sex?
It's interesting to note how the discussion has morphed from whether a HJ "is sex" to whether it is "sexual activity." BIG difference. Kissing is sexual activity, but no one would suggest that it's sex.

Look, everyone is completely entitled to their own view of what is and isn't sex. The OP came here looking for opinions, and got them. As I said long ago, how _he_ chooses to define sex is ultimately up to _him_.

And yeah, the issue at hand is a very different one in the context of OP's other threads. Context, right?


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## romantic_guy (Nov 8, 2011)

BALANCE said:


> You're right, it is unfair. She didn't lie she just didn't tell me everything. She didn't tell me because she didn't want to go into all the details. I get that.
> 
> It seems most people on here think it's no big deal. It really isn't a big deal for me now, but I wonder why I reacted the way I did?


Why you reacted like that? I could only guess. I could have something to do with the conservative Christian teachings you had (just so you know, that is my background). Somehow we get the idea that sexual "sins" are worse that other "sins" so we see this as a bigger deal. My wife had one other boyfriend before me and they fooled around (not that far). That is in the past (as are all of our "sins" I might add). 

Or maybe the thought of your wife being with another guy bothers you. 

One thing is for sure, getting angry about it will shut her down. She will get the idea that you do not love her unconditionally. So, if you have not already done so, ask her forgiveness and tell her that you don't care about the past. Tell her she can tell you anything and you will love and accept her. She may need to do the same for you one day.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I go back to my earlier claim about what sex is:

it's about arousal, effort, and acceptance.

When some other person looks at you - it's a look.

when some other person looks at you that way, with the intent to arouse you, and when they find they are doing it - that's sex. It's called foreplay.

so if someone gave you such a good foot massage that you got aroused and something happened. that's sex.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi BALANCE ~

I've come late to this thread and haven't read through all the responses, so maybe you already addressed this.

In my opinion, yes hand jobs count as sex, but I know that many people have the notion that it's only sex if there's intercourse involved.

But, that's not really the issue here, I think. You mentioned you were upset that your wife had lied to you about this - kept it a secret for so many years.

I ask you - what was her motivation in telling you this in particular right now?

From a different post regarding your wife sexually teasing and depriving you, I will say that I now tend to see malicious intent in your wife's machinations. These may be totally unfounded because I can only see her through what you have written. But, if I were you, I would at least try and see why this particular topic came up at this point.

If she was truly trying to be honest and aboveboard, then take it as such and LET.IT.GO. and MOVE.FORWARD.

Best wishes.


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## FrankKissel (Nov 14, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> I go back to my earlier claim about what sex is:
> 
> it's about arousal, effort, and acceptance.
> 
> ...


So if some strange woman on the street looks at me with come hither eyes and I notice, I just had sex with her?
Like I said, everyone is entitled to their own definition, but that one ... hmmmm.


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## SockPuppet (May 16, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Hi BALANCE ~
> 
> I've come late to this thread and haven't read through all the responses, so maybe you already addressed this.
> 
> ...


It doesnt count as sex if I pull out - Dane Cook


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

The Definition of 'Sex'

Non-penetrative sex is a sexual activity. I would think one would want to know if your spouse/fiancee was engaged in sexual activity with someone else.


But as the world changes, the best definition ever is: The 21st century equivalent of the kiss.


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Hi BALANCE ~
> 
> I've come late to this thread and haven't read through all the responses, so maybe you already addressed this.
> 
> ...


Glad you could make it, I value your opinion.

If this had happened more recently, say the last six months when sex was off the table, I would think it might fall in the "malicious intent" camp. However, this was about two years ago and was after we had gone through MC and were doing a little better. 

There are still some questions I have, like why bring it up at all. And it clearly was a big deal to her originally (she was crying and was afraid I would dump her) but then when it seems like a big deal to me now she underplays it like it was nothing. 

I can give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she just wanted to share something with me that she had not been able to share before. I wish I reacted differently but I've apologized for that and the actual hand job part is not an issue at all.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

FrankKissel said:


> So if some strange woman on the street looks at me with come hither eyes and I notice, I just had sex with her?
> Like I said, everyone is entitled to their own definition, but that one ... hmmmm.


No, if doesn't . Nor does your trivializing the example help either.

Like a lot of things in life, it all balances on intent. Sex is all about arousal, arousing and lighting up parts of the brain which pump out hormones and other chemicals which cause a cascade of physical and emotional responses. 

Sex between people occurs when you let these reaction progress and proceed. Even if you don't finish with an O, it can still be sex(you know what I'm taking about ladies )

But have no doubt there are women out there with such hot looks and ways of looking at a man across the room, that I think it almost could be sex. If you've never felt that shiver run through you, well you gotta try it sometime..
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

BALANCE said:


> Glad you could make it, I value your opinion.
> 
> If this had happened more recently, say the last six months when sex was off the table, I would think it might fall in the "malicious intent" camp. However, this was about two years ago and was after we had gone through MC and were doing a little better.
> 
> ...


Thanks for clarifying the timeline of events.

You mentioned that you and she were raised as conservative Christians, yes? Many Christian women (men too) who engage in premarital sexual activities can often feel tremendous guilt and remorse for those activites afterward. The guilt can last a long, long time.

Perhaps this was always something that she felt guilty about and wanted to clear the air with you and that was why she brought it up. Perhaps she thought if she did, since you were closer back then due to your counseling efforts, she felt more comfortable in the relationship and wanted to share it. By sharing it and getting your forgiveness, it would help ameloriate the guilt she felt.

I think that right now there has been something of a marital breakdown between you two, and she seems unwilling at this point to see your side of things.

Why is it that this is bothering you now since the confession was two years ago? What is it that is triggering you thinking about this? Are you worried that because she held this information close to her chest all of that time that she is withholding other information from you? Are you worried that this somehow makes you inadequate although you are the one that she chose to marry?

Now I am trying to understand YOUR motivations. 

Best wishes.


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## BALANCE (Nov 18, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Why is it that this is bothering you now since the confession was two years ago? What is it that is triggering you thinking about this? Are you worried that because she held this information close to her chest all of that time that she is withholding other information from you? Are you worried that this somehow makes you inadequate although you are the one that she chose to marry?
> 
> Now I am trying to understand YOUR motivations.
> 
> Best wishes.


I wouldn't say it's bothering me. 

This week I laid out some expectations/needs with my wife. I posted that in another thread. We talked a lot and I asked her if she would share some of the things in the past that she still feels hurt by or that we didn't resolve. This argument we had two years ago was one of the things she shared. So I apologized. I think I did react poorly at the time.

Also I just sort of wanted to talk, and it happened to be on my mind.


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## Dochelper (Apr 5, 2016)

I'mInLoveWithMyHubby said:


> I do not consider hand jobs as sex either. It's more along the lines of masturbation or foreplay.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I do not consider hand jobs as sex. Sex is either vaginal intercourse or oral sex.


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