# Out of all the pain, this hurts most



## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

After reflecting on all your posts this weekend, I feel the need to isolate the one incident/event/lie that hurt the most...I narrowed it down to this:

Aside from all the lying and sex stuff she did after our separation, what truly hurts the most, and I feel is the final catalyst to help me move on, is the fact that she f***ed my friend the night I moved out. Why? Because after 9 years, this should have been a time for her to be sad...reflect on our life together...it was my first night away for the last 9 years...the finale...instead of showing any remorse, or empathy, or nostalgia, or a glimmer that she was going to miss me, she instead slept with my friend 4 hours later...a planned, pre-meditated event where she picked him up at the airport at 9:30 that night and had sex in her car with him.

Before she left my apartment that evening, with all my boxes and stuff strewn around, she stood at the door, opened her arms, and hugged and kissed me. She looked me in the eyes and said she loved me, and said, "we can do this"...glossy eyes but no tears...we can do this was referring to the fact that we can be friends still...but her mind was focused on what she was going to do next ...not on me.

So, with this I'll never forget...this will be the event that trumps all the other cruel and hurtful stuff...and I will use that every time I think about her...I will use this to validate the true woman she really was...

please post feedback...I need it.


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## Nawlins (Feb 25, 2015)

You will overcome this Deg20. You by now understand she is in need of serious help. Take care of yourself and your future, you can't be consumed by what she has done or become.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

So sorry for your pain.

You can make it through. Some very wise posters gave me two pieces of advice that always helped me. First, if their words and their actions seem to conflict, believe their actions. "We can do this" indeed. She has no real intention of remaining your friend because friends don't behave that way. 

Second. Learn to view your relationship from 50,000 ft. Develop the ability to detach from the old relationship and really, honestly look at the relationship you are left with. Is this the way you want to live, are you being treated in a respectful manner? Its hard, but honestly, it does become easier with time and practice.


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## BetrayedDad (Aug 8, 2013)

deg20 said:


> Aside from all the lying and sex stuff she did after our separation, what truly hurts the most, and I feel is the final catalyst to help me move on, is the fact that she f***ed my friend the night I moved out. Why? Because after 9 years, this should have been a time for her to be sad...reflect on our life together...it was my first night away for the last 9 years...the finale...instead of showing any remorse, or empathy, or nostalgia, or a glimmer that she was going to miss me, she instead slept with my friend 4 hours later...a planned, pre-meditated event where she picked him up at the airport at 9:30 that night and had sex in her car with him.


Understand that your spouse is a BROKEN person. She will hurt you over and over again because she can't help herself. It's all the more reason that you should never be with her again. 

Consider she behaves similarly to addict. A normal person would have shown remorse and reflected on all the bad things they did. You wife chooses to numb the pain by distracting herself with the euphoria of sex. Much like an alcoholic would go get drunk. It's how she processes negative emotions because immorality is normal to her. 

I'm NOT saying she is a sex addict (because I personally don't by into that) but she can't be alone, has no self respect and needs SERIOUS mental help. Maybe after YEARS of therapy she will figure out why she is so fvcked up in the head but right now she's a lost cause.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Just let it process Deg. 

Your exWW is indeed a broken, sick woman. You don't need to try to figure out the whys. You need to stop asking how you could have been with a monster all that time and never knew it. Just don't go there anymore. Don't try to understand crazy. 

Get some intensive individual therapy for PTSD. You have been through hell and you need a good counselor to steer you through your healing.

I hope you have kicked this "friend" of yours to the curb.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Whats the deal
Whats the deal with your friend? Was that a first time? Did he dump you for a one time sex thing with his friends wife?


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Deg needs to identify, isolate and terminate...any and all people in his life you used him and taken advantage of him, and he needs to do it for good.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

*Understand that your spouse is a BROKEN person. She will hurt you over and over again because she can't help herself. It's all the more reason that you should never be with her again. 

Consider she behaves similarly to addict. A normal person would have shown remorse and reflected on all the bad things they did. You wife chooses to numb the pain by distracting herself with the euphoria of sex. Much like an alcoholic would go get drunk. It's how she processes negative emotions because immorality is normal to her. 

I'm NOT saying she is a sex addict (because I personally don't by into that) but she can't be alone, has no self respect and needs SERIOUS mental help. Maybe after YEARS of therapy she will figure out why she is so fvcked up in the head but right now she's a lost cause. *

*Your exWW is indeed a broken, sick woman. You don't need to try to figure out the whys. You need to stop asking how you could have been with a monster all that time and never knew it. Just don't go there anymore. Don't try to understand crazy. 
*

Maybe two of the best posts...thanks to both of you...these are starting to hit home...

I have finally accepted the fact she is broken and sick. I could not/would not accept this before...but enough of you, and some of my counsellors have opinionated the same thing...why couldn't I see this all the while?...


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

deg20 said:


> *
> 
> ...why couldn't I see this all the while?...*


*

Because you loved her. 


Nothing wrong with that. Now you have learned, and now you know what to look out for in future relationships. Treat this whole fiasco as a learning experience and know that it has made you wiser and stronger. 

Selfish, sick, narcissistic people like your exWW destroy...

They are human atom bombs who destroy everything in their wake. Most of the time they are blind to the destruction. And even when they see the destruction they react by just destroying more. 

Your exWW is heading for some seriously horrible repercussions. She will continue to destroy her relationships one by one, and in the end she will be alone. Utterly alone.*


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

Chaparral said:


> Whats the deal
> Whats the deal with your friend? Was that a first time? Did he dump you for a one time sex thing with his friends wife?


She confided in him behind my back about a week before she left me. I found this out later...she said it was to discuss depression, as his sister suffered from this as does her daughter. A good wife would have told her husband she was consulting a friend. He lives on the east coast, and we live in Ontario...he moved there a couple years ago. She met him through me...a longtime friend of all of us here...now my friends have no respect for him. As soon as she relayed to him that we were having difficulty, he badmouthed me...how she should leave...it turned sexual, and she began telling him how much she always wanted him...then the pics began back and forth...I have not contacted him since I found this all out...she slept with him twice...once the night I moved out...he came to visit his mom...and again at Christmas time...maybe she f***ed him while I was married to her still...I don't know.

I learned this through the fake guy I created...


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## Somanylemons (May 2, 2015)

I'm sorry to hear that you have been through all this. 

I think you have to start thinking about what is best for you. Another poster said you need to process this and take time and that is true. However you also need to avoid wallowing in your pain. That isn't going to do you any good either. 

Sadly she has shown you how little she cares about you which is hurtful but she has in some ways done you a favour. You can't have any lingering doubts now about the sort of person she is and how little she valued your relationship.

The fact that she didn't value it is not a reflection on you. All it shows is that she has an area of spiritual and emotional immaturity within her and she isn't able yet to treat a partner the way they should be treated. That isn't your fault.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

Somanylemons said:


> I'm sorry to hear that you have been through all this.
> 
> I think you have to start thinking about what is best for you. Another poster said you need to process this and take time and that is true. However you also need to avoid wallowing in your pain. That isn't going to do you any good either.
> 
> ...


Throughout the marriage she stuck by me through three job losses...she showed some empathy sometimes...but I didnt bring any messes into the marriage either...she seemed so loving and caring with me...either she turned this way near the end or she put on a good show for 9 years. Maybe that's why Im so confused...


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## OLDERMARRIEDCOUPLE (Mar 13, 2015)

Deg20 - Do you know what a sociopath is?

This sounds like what you describe. Don't try to understand a person like that because she truly has no moral compass.


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## Somanylemons (May 2, 2015)

The thing is nobody is 100% nice or nasty. Its about taking stock and seeing where the balance is.

For example my husband is a human being and as such he is not perfect. Sometimes he does things to me that are irritating or even unkind. However this are minor things and on balance he is a really good husband. 

On the other hand there have been people in my life who have, at times, done bad things to me that totally outweigh the good. These actions outweighed the good because they showed very clearly what this person really thought of me and how that they neither respected or valued me. 

I'm sure your wife has been supportive of you at times, but I also think she has shown you what she really things of you.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

*Deg20 - Do you know what a sociopath is?

This sounds like what you describe. Don't try to understand a person like that because she truly has no moral compass. *

Many have stated this, even a few professionals, and I have been researching this lately. She DOES fall into many of the traits of a sociopath...not all...she doesn't have a criminal aspect to her, and no juveline delinquency, but she shows traits of many of the rest of them...lying, albeit not the "story telling" type of lies, just about her whereabouts mainly...but shallow emotions, possibly an incapacity to love,impulse nature, unreliability, manipulative

No grandiose sense of self though...she has always had low self esteem...confident, but low self worth...

Anyway, she fits the bill for about 70-80% of a sociopath...


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## where_are_we (May 24, 2013)

Our spouses have similar problems. I think you've received some great advice here. I tried so hard to get the answers too. Why? What did I do? Like someone else said, you can't understand crazy. After a while you make yourself crazy. 

I've decided my husband is a sociopath. He certainly fits the criteria and I fell victim to his deceit. I decided to accept this and not try to understand WHY. 

The best thing you can do for yourself is to protect your own physical and emotional health. That means disconnecting from the craziness. You cannot fix a person like this. They are truly sick. I know it's easier said than done and I'm so sorry you are here.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

where_are_we said:


> Our spouses have similar problems. I think you've received some great advice here. I tried so hard to get the answers too. Why? What did I do? Like someone else said, you can't understand crazy. After a while you make yourself crazy.
> 
> I've decided my husband is a sociopath. He certainly fits the criteria and I fell victim to his deceit. I decided to accept this and not try to understand WHY.
> 
> The best thing you can do for yourself is to protect your own physical and emotional health. That means disconnecting from the craziness. You cannot fix a person like this. They are truly sick. I know it's easier said than done and I'm so sorry you are here.


It's hard to fathom that someone could do this for 9 years...commit to a marriage...compliment, stick up for me, be intimate...when in fact it's all a dupe...a farce...invite me to move in...etc, etc,...all for naught...doesn't that seem bizarre and hard to realize?


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

I am sorry but you will need to realize she no longer loved you. No it doesn't seem bizarre to me. I was done when I left my wife. I felt relief - not sadness or regret the day I left. I didn't think of, or about her - I thought yea its over and how now I can start being me and living the life I wanted. Please consider the possibility she may never feel any regret or remorse. I never have - the day I left was a good one - not a bad or sad one for me.

I am sorry your struggling with acceptance it's over and done and she doesn't care (which she probably doesn't). In time you will. My advise is concentrate on your life now - not her.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

deg20 said:


> ...either she turned this way near the end or *she put on a good show for 9 years*. Maybe that's why Im so confused...


She put on a good show for 9 years.

Ted Bundy was the cleanest cut, nicest most charming guy you would ever want to meet. If you went to a party and he was there, and you had never met him, he would be the guy who you wanted to like you... until he strangled you to death. He was the slickest sociopath in history. 

Sociopaths can ACT loving, helpful and kind, but it is always done for the sake of getting something, not out of true feeling or emotion. Your wife put on the act for as long as she needed you around. When she was tired of you and no longer needed you she threw you away and let loose her real self.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Not all sociopaths become murderers or criminals. Many lead very successful lives and go on to be leaders of industry and politics. Donald Trump comes to mind. That man cares for nothing or nobody but himself, and he is deadly ruthless.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

deg20 said:


> *Deg20 - Do you know what a sociopath is?
> 
> This sounds like what you describe. Don't try to understand a person like that because she truly has no moral compass. *
> 
> ...


You need to quit focusing on her. This really does you no good and too many of us have done this route. If a doctor gave you a lock solid diagnosis of her today its not changing anything. 

Your stbx is a runner. She lives in a world of denial and lack of basically self awareness. The night you moved out you wanted her to mourn the loss of marriage and you. She chose to run from her feelings and the situation. She reinvented herself to deny dealing with things. 

She lives "in the moment . She doesnt reflect on the past, she isn't thinking about the future. Only now so she can avoid feelings of loss or damage she has caused. Its incredibly selfish on her part. She will ultimately "wreck" herself but its her choice. 

The answer to the questions is your probably never going to get answers. Its part of the sh$t sandwich we get shoved down are throat. Right now she can't provide answers because she is running from her own problems. 

The path of destruction these people leave is usually deep and wide. The more they avoid the more damage. Get yourself out of the path of destruction. Heal yourself up realize she is a broken person who has many issues to sorts out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

You keep looking at her through your own character and expecting her to do what you would do. Get rid of that filter. Look at her for who she is.

She was done, a long time ago. She's already moved on.

Now it's time for you. Stop focusing on her. 

What are you doing for yourself? That's the big issue now.


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## where_are_we (May 24, 2013)

Deg,
I was with my husband for 12 years. He put on one hella show. I'm living your same nightmare. You are not alone in feeling slighted. 

Yes. They can and will do it, for reasons none of us will ever understand. Mine still has his family and most friends fooled. He has a professional job and has an MBA degree. Well liked, but eerily quiet. He shelters a dark side that most would never believe.

I'm guessing your wife did not turn into this person after your split. Most likely she was hiding her secret life for 9 years and now she doesn't have to. 

Again, so sorry you find yourself here. You will find your new normal.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

*Most likely she was hiding her secret life for 9 years and now she doesn't have to. 
*

So so SO hard to fathom this! Wouldn't SOMETHING have come out...from someone about her exploits before she met me...from her secret life before and during me?...Wouldn't I have seen a sign, a clue, hearsay, a rumour...something...???

I believe you, that these people are good...but it's just so hard to realize...extremely enigmatic...

She has such a large circle of acquaintances...and she's charming and likeable...I can see men getting hooked easily, and they have since me...one wanted to leave his wife for her if she committed to him right after she left me...she wouldn't commit of course...


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## Jung_admirer (Jun 26, 2013)

Deg... I am sorry you find yourself here. In time you will recognize the gift, but now it stings like rock salt in your eyes. Be kind to yourself-


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## Steve1000 (Nov 25, 2013)

These bits of details that you will think of for the next few months are very painful realizations now, but eventually they will help you to emotionally withdraw from her.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

All I can tell you is that I would never treat anyone this way...whether it was nine years or nine days. I pride myself in how I treat others, especially women...I have NEVER ended a longtime relationship, and I've been in three including this last marriage...

Had I walked away from her, which I almost did when she began showing coldness, I would have given her ample reasons about why and would have answered all of her questions...but not before trying to work on our marriage first, and if all else failed, then I would leave...but again, that's me, and now I know she is and was a totally different person inside.

Two final statements she left me with just after leaving sort of verify all of your input and posts...

1. When asking her if we can try and fix this and go to marriage counselling, she responded with,"...but I don't WANT to fix it"

2. "I'm tired of taking care of everyone...I want someone to take care of ME for a change"...which may explain her newest partner...a financial upgrade from me...


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## where_are_we (May 24, 2013)

You will drive yourself mad looking for the clues of what you didn't see. You may realize some of them over time.....The red flags that were once unnoticeable are waving in the wind before your eyes. There MAY be a few. 

But, even more disturbing is there most likely will not be any red flags when you look into your past. This is not a flaw in you or all the others who know her. This is a character flaw in her. Enter Ted Bundy.....


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

It's normal to want to make sense of what happened but the fact is that you never will. You're not her and you'll never understand what goes on inside her head (be grateful for that). 

Recovering from betrayal is a hard road to travel but you'll get there.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

*You will drive yourself mad*

I believe I am already there...I talk to myself a lot at home...cursing her...asking questions to myself...I pace in the mornings...I smoke more frequently...when I see my stepson once a month, he is a trigger even though we don't mention her...I am obsessed with researching her character and her personality...

..but I have never stalked her, harassed her, or asked anyone who knows her for input or what she is doing...for that I'm proud...

I guess it's all part of the healing...

5 counselors, same input..focus on you...what do YOU want...what makes YOU happy...I understand that...and I'm getting there...


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## beautiful_day (Mar 28, 2013)

It's part of the healing. It's a coping mechanism, and your reactions are normal. Darn, almost all betrayed spouses turn into amateur detectives, whether they are reconciling or not, whether it was a kiss or a decade long Craig's List habit. It's our attempt to control the situation ... to control the pain. 

What you are actually suffering from is extreme anxiety right now, so it might be worth going along to your local library and digging through the books on controlling anxiety, because most of the adultery books seem to concentrate on reconciliation. It also helps to identify what your main reaction to anxiety is. Fight, flight or freeze. If it's to fight then working out might help get it out. If it's to flee then running or walking might relieve it for a short while. If it's to freeze then you just trying to concentrate on a useful task, one thing at a time might get you moving. You are pacing from the anxiety, so give that an outlet by doing something physical or repetitive. 

Deg it will pass. The universe will take of her.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

Try not to make things worse letting your imagination run wild with "what she might have done" or you think she must have. If it helps you cope by making her the worst person ever in your mind fine, but making assumptions trying to find explanation for yourself doesn't make things or it true. As I admitted before - I'm one of the "other side". A walk-away. I never cheated. But my Ex is sure I must have if I left her and told anyone who would listen. Whatever - God knows I didn't and that's all I care - and I'm not wasting my time trying to defend myself or explain anything to her.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

deg20 said:


> She confided in him behind my back about a week before she left me. I found this out later...she said it was to discuss depression, as his sister suffered from this as does her daughter. A good wife would have told her husband she was consulting a friend. He lives on the east coast, and we live in Ontario...he moved there a couple years ago. She met him through me...a longtime friend of all of us here...now my friends have no respect for him. As soon as she relayed to him that we were having difficulty, he badmouthed me...how she should leave...it turned sexual, and she began telling him how much she always wanted him...then the pics began back and forth...I have not contacted him since I found this all out...she slept with him twice...once the night I moved out...he came to visit his mom...and again at Christmas time...maybe she f***ed him while I was married to her still...I don't know.
> 
> I learned this through the fake guy I created...


She might have made stuff up to hurt you. Do keep that in mind.


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

Dawg, I'm reposting what I wrote you in another thread. You need to read it, accept it as reality, and quit hoping to change her or change history because you think it should have been different. etc. You're continuous autopsy of situation is really nothing more than you trying to assure yourself that you were not the problem. You're playing a never ending fools game my man. Accept that she was screwing other guys while you were married and get this notion out of your head that she was Ms. Jekyll when she was married to you and Ms. Hyde only before she ditched you.
Moreover, I can assure you she knows your behind or at least getting information from the "fake guy" unless she a complete idiot. She's played you like a $5.00 guitar. Face it Dawg, you're going to end up sick and broken if you don't quit this quest to figure her out. You ain't going to do it. With all my expertise about women, I couldn't do it: albeit I wouldn't let her jerk me around like you do. I'd be out on dates with quality woman. Take my word for it, she done with you and analysis by the late, great Dr. Sigmond Freud of her character and her personality ain't going to change that.
Now re-read the post I made and take it to heart.



ThePheonix said:


> Take my word for it Dawg, she's concerned about no longer being able to hurt you. Just from what you describe and the way she talks to you, her pleasure is derived, not from having sex with multiple guys, but using her puzzy to lure in and control men. She wants to see you squirm. She a man eater.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

*get this notion out of your head that she was Ms. Jekyll when she was married to you and Ms. Hyde only before she ditched you.*

This is the key...I need to realize that she didn't stay true or wholesome or faithful until the day she announced she was leaving. For some reason, she has instilled that she never crossed the line when married. Well, that imaginary line that divides this that lives in her head is bullsh*t...understanding that gives me more power to let go. I don't know why I've been brainwashed to think she was a good girl while married and that she stayed true to her vows...


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## ThePheonix (Jan 3, 2013)

You tend to keep grasping for straws instead of just swimming out. Perhaps there was a period, even possibly spanning most of your marriage when she was true to you. Why does it matter now and into the future? She turned and ditched you. It doesn't matter what you want, how much you love her, how beautiful she is, what a wonder marriage you had initially. That was another place and another time. She soured on you Dawg and she's now toxic. In the final analysis, you're doing it to yourself hoping for a eureka moment.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

deg20 said:


> *get this notion out of your head that she was Ms. Jekyll when she was married to you and Ms. Hyde only before she ditched you.*
> 
> This is the key...I need to realize that she didn't stay true or wholesome or faithful until the day she announced she was leaving. For some reason, she has instilled that she never crossed the line when married. Well, that imaginary line that divides this that lives in her head is bullsh*t...understanding that gives me more power to let go. I don't know why *I've been brainwashed to think she was a good girl while married and that she stayed true to her vows.*..


I have been through this and sorry this is happening to you. You have finally been introduced to the real woman who has been snowballing you for 9 years. It makes you feel small and used. Like nothing you did mattered. That everything you did was in vein and time wasted. 

Use this rage to pick yourself up and move forward. You can't change her and thankfully don't have too. Start improving yourself. Stop thinking "I wasted 9 years" and think "thank god I didn't waste 10". 

Your life is yours and you get to write it. She will sink to the bottom on her so don't attach to her and her drama. Cut toxic out of your life. 

I get it, I was there. Today you are free so go live


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I've been through this many many days and even years. It's delusional thinking and it's partly because your brain is trying to make sense of it. Over time, you will find your mind will fill in the blanks as necessary for you to accept things as they are. What helped me was going to a therapist/counselor and talking it out again and again. Each time I sounded like I was pining over her, he brought up something I told him that she had done, which hurt me deeply and angered me. I don't mean he hurt me. He just reminded me of things she did that hurt me. I think you should consider the rotten things she did when you find yourself becoming unsure of what you know to be true. After a time, you will believe the truth. 

In the mean time, exercising hard and eating right will help you. Working and seeing your own accomplishments will help you. If you have to start small with accomplishments, so be it. I think anything will help. 

Remember, this is just a suggestion. Others are welcome to dismiss it as hooey. It is what happened to me.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

She is the scorpion, you are the frog. Be glad yuo survived.

This fable is long, forgive me for posting it.

*The Scorpion and the Frog*

One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.
The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.

Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.

"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"

"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.

"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"

Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"

"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"

"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.

"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"

So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.

Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.

"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"

The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.

"I could not help myself. It is my nature."

Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.

Self destruction - "Its my Nature", said the Scorpion...


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

I guess the bargaining has to stop...the teetering between back and forth in my mind...that plagues me every night and every morning...was she a good wife or not? Did she cheat during our marriage or not? Did she love me or not?

I think by all of your answers, I know...

This cyclical "now I feel ok because she probably was good...wait...now I feel down because I lived in her deception for 9 years" has to stop. I am on the brink, if not there now, of insanity...and me saying this is not just rhetoric and hyperbole...I truly think I am...but I have to come to the decision that yes, bad things happen to good people...I wasn't perfect, in fact, I KNOW where I went wrong...didn't help pay for groceries, didn't participate in her group events, parties, time with family enough...said nasty things about her kids to her...but NONE of that is worthy of a marriage breakdown. There were NEVER any discussions about any friction we had from her, or issues that she thought were important,...I offered discussion many many times, but was either ignored, postponed and forgotten about, or downplayed and we really didn't have much arguing or fighting the whole 9 years...we rarely fought period.

Bottom line: I didn't cheat. I was faithful. I loved her. I would have tried to work it out. I loved her. I put up with crises and dilemmas and didn't walk away. I was always there for her...through the meds and the depression and the months of her sleeping non stop...I was there for her.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I know I felt like I was such a fool for wasting my time and efforts in something that could not be and that put the last nail in my ability to make a better life for myself. I know we are different, but I wonder if you don't look to find some proof, anything really, that all your love and devotion was worth something. That even she did not just use you the whole time. That you are worth a better woman. 

It's a slippery slope because you can't know what she was thinking and she may well have provided reason for you to believe she loved you, and still may not have. She may even had a little love for you or what she thought to be real love. Each of us loves in a different capacity. We express it in different ways. What looks like love to a strict father, certainly doesn't look like love to the child. 

You can't know for sure. You have to keep going over how rotten the things were she did to you. You have to believe she is wrong for you or you will get stuck. She is not good for you in a long-term relationship. That's what's reality. Strike out on your own and give life a chance. You may be surprised to find you can find happiness and peace without a deceptive wife. You may find you can find a better match and be happier than ever. It's worth moving forward. It's worth trying. There are so many women out there who are nothing like her. And, you are only hurting yourself. She doesn't feel any of this. She likes what she did or she wouldn't have done it.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

I never said this before, but when 98% of a marriage that existed for 9 years was free from quarrels, arguing, friction between both of us personally ( not involving the kids I mean )...

When we got along and enjoyed each other for that long without a major feud between us...when this trip together as husband and wife was so utterly different than every one else's in that we literally had no turmoil between us as a couple...and didn't fight...and supported each other...and rubbed each other's backs...and enjoyed coffee together every morning....and I'm not exaggerating...we had no problems that resulted in sleeping in different beds or spending the night at a relative's or threats or negative, fight-dirty tactics...when you have all this, and then that person becomes what she became, it's more astounding than a slow lead-up that you can feel coming, or an all out brawl where dishes are thrown, or endless days and nights of nagging and fighting that screams of divorce or separation... 

We had none of this...so this is what makes it so hard...when you don't feel it coming 

I don't know what's worse...the three to four month, deathly slow detachment of her intimacy that only now can regard in hindsight , her physical closeness daily losing ground, her acknowledging I'm in the room fading every day OR an all out "That's it..I'm leaving" and gone...

Either way, I'm taking heed in all your posts...and it's starting to click...


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Mine was the same, deg. What I didn't know was she was talking to others about what she needed to talk with me about. She wasn't that satisfied, she was taught that she should not complain and that education meant to her that she should not talk with her husband about issues she had. Mine was similar to yours in her actions with sex, as well. 

I figured some of the sex with others was reaching out because she needed to get the anger out she couldn't express with me, because of her beliefs surrounding "complaining". I figure some of it was just that she liked sex alot. I figure some of it was me turning her down a few times. I figure some of it was her hormones going crazy and pushing her sex drive through the roof. I figure it was just who she was. 

I think she thought I would do similar, like it was no big deal. As much as she wouldn't communicate with me, I could not tell her about myself because she didn't want to know and changed the subject or just told me she didn't want to talk about it. Again, likely a product of her beliefs surrounding "complaining". Not my fault, but was quite literally blamed on me. I was told I must have frightened her and she couldn't talk. Bull shyt. 

Do you see how she may not have thought there was an issue at all? Time to let it go, deg. You did all you could. You deserve happiness. You don't deserve someone like that. You didn't ask for it. You thought it was perfect. I did too. Big red flag deg. Nothing, nothing ever is perfect. If there isn't some complaining, something is wrong. Some, not terrible stuff, just some normal I'm not satisfied with this or that thing type of complaining. 

Let it go. She doesn't care or even understand enough to care. She sees nothing wrong with what she did. Even if she did, she would not tell you and put on a show like it was perfect until you....and she would only tell her mother or some particular family members.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

2ntnuf said:


> Mine was the same, deg. *What I didn't know was she was talking to others about what she needed to talk with me about. *She wasn't that satisfied, she was taught that she should not complain and that education meant to her that she should not talk with her husband about issues she had. Mine was similar to yours in her actions with sex, as well.
> 
> I figured some of the sex with others was reaching out because she needed to get the anger out she couldn't express with me, because of her beliefs surrounding "complaining". I figure some of it was just that she liked sex alot. I figure some of it was me turning her down a few times. I figure some of it was her hormones going crazy and pushing her sex drive through the roof. I figure it was just who she was.
> 
> ...



In bold type from your quote just sent shivers through me...this is EXACTLY what she's like. She turned to my long time friend, her girlfriends, her family to bring up issues...never me...Why?...I was there for her issues, so why not reciprocate? ...I was a shoulder of support.

I find it astounding that you just typed this...like your wife, she avoided conflict...always with the same response..."You're stressing me out"...or "stop guilting me" and there...I was shut down...left to fester until it all came to a head and voila...it's over.

and she was like this with everyone...she didn't discipline her kids to avoid conflict. She people-pleased and avoided confrontation at work...even after a brief spat about money during our separation, where she stormed out of my apartment, she returned the next day to say "sorry"...and then a text from her later..."Everything is at peace in my life when we are good"...also, while separated, in my apartment, I brought up the fact that I had suspicions of her sleeping with my friend that night...you know how she avoided this?...she had sex with me without even acknowledging my issue

How can one live with a person like this?...it's a catch 22....


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

You don't get too close. You don't tell them everything and live your life. You go out and have "secret" girlfriends you meet for sex. You don't tell anyone. You go out with the guys to do things. You take her out and have a nice time and show her off like a brilliant diamond. You don't ask questions. You don't get involved with what she does outside of things at home. You do as you please and don't hurt her by lying about taking her out and then not doing it. You do things at home as expected by a strong male figure. You hold her when she cries and don't ask why cause it might be her outside male interest hurt her feelings. You listen to her talks about some beotch at work and then empathize. Some things are normal and some things are not. In the end, she will drop you faster than a hot potato when she is ready, and you will never know. Mine told me she was "a runner". You can't know when or even if that will happen, but you can bet that it will. It was a red flag I never got explanation to satisfy my curiosity. It was the truth, but only in part. 

Best thing a man like you or I can do is leave her to the sharks. They know how to deal with her. She will get frustrated and think better of what she did, but in the end, it's what she needs and wants. Some strong man who dates around and rules over her in a manner that most married wives would see as control and abuse will not be thought of in that way by her. Because, it's what she needs and wants. And, she can "run", sleep around on him, and never ever talk about it or her true feelings cause he won't listen anyway. 

Best to throw that fish back. It's not good for consumption. It's a bottom feeder who thinks it's a predator shark, until the real shark comes along.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

deg, I'm sorry if I hurt you. 

You can't change yourself enough to be what she needs. She already knows who you are. You probably fall in love easily and then try to do the best you can. You can't change that need of your's. It will always be there. I'm sorry. 

Best you can do is what others here have done. Read some men's self-help books and become as strong as possible, then go find a better match. I know it's little consolation when you want desperately to love her, but she won't let you. I know that you want what she did give you back, but it wasn't true like you felt for her. She can't feel that way. It's just who she is. And, she sucks because she likely knew, but wanted to try and didn't know how much it would hurt a man like you. She crushed you and doesn't even think of it. She likely wonders why you would feel the way you do. Why you aren't out there finding sex with another woman. It's just enough to be intriguing, but not enough for her to go through what was likely hell for her. And, you never knew or you would have left her long ago. 

I'm sorry deg.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

Hate to say this, but your last post just brought tears...****...**** you're so right...this was her!


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

ETA: I fought with the same emotions and desires deg, for way too long. It hurt me deeply. Don't let it hurt you that much.



Hang in there deg. Let these guys help you Pheonix and bandit and some of these other guys(lots of them actually) know what they are saying. You have to work with them. I couldn't for more reasons than I can or want to explain. They know how to help you.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> deg, I'm sorry if I hurt you.
> 
> You can't change yourself enough to be what she needs. She already knows who you are. You probably fall in love easily and then try to do the best you can. You can't change that need of your's. It will always be there. I'm sorry.
> 
> ...


Any woman who would take it from two guys in an alley is a scuzzbucket, and not a woman any decent man would want to be with. OP needs to see her for the slime she truly is. Only then can he accept it an move on. Hes not ready to do that.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I do believe some of that is due to hormones and some just who she is. It will calm down some in ten years, but she will still be the woman who doesn't understand you, deg. She's just that different and this time of her "awakening" will change her more as she does things like this. Be sure it wasn't the only thing she's done that would bother you, deg. Let yourself be free of that worry. You aren't responsible for her any more. In fact, when you do let yourself be free, you will realize she was never your's.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

And I'll go one more. Not only is she scum, but she is the worst kind of two-faced scum. Making herself out to be all sweet and wonderful to family and friends, while letting loose her inner porn queen before the ink is even dry on the divorce agreement. 

You can say all you want about women's rights and freedoms, but filing for the divorce was no excuse for her to launch out of the gate like Secretariat and start fvcking every guy with a pulse. Any conscientious wife who is splitting with her husband has some responsibility to at least ACT a little sad about the divorce.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> I do believe some of that is due to hormones and some just who she is. It will calm down some in ten years, but she will still be the woman who doesn't understand you, deg. She's just that different and this time of her "awakening" will change her more as she does things like this. Be sure it wasn't the only thing she's done that would bother you, deg. Let yourself be free of that worry. You aren't responsible for her any more. In fact, when you do let yourself be free, you will realize she was never your's.


Hormones my ass...shes a pig.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Hormones my ass...shes a pig.


I've had others tell me the same about my second ex. I still looked for the things that would have caused it and make her innocent, as that's sort of how I thought. 

He's in for hell. It's tough to stop believing.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

These last few posts by all you guys...especially 2ntnuf...but bandit and phoenix...they have really hit home here...better than any posts and I'm on three other sites like this...

You guys finally hit it on the head...I see her now in the same light as you guys...It's like you guys were in the house with me seeing all this...

Yknow...I'm a big tuff guy who loves sports and plays baseball and has a huge cd collection...but Im not too tuff to tell you Im breaking down right now but it feels pretty good...these were the posts I needed I think


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

bandit.45 said:


> Any woman who would take it from two guys in an alley is a scuzzbucket, and not a woman any decent man would want to be with. OP needs to see her for the slime she truly is. Only then can he accept it an move on. Hes not ready to do that.


You know, that is exactly a scene from that movie "Wild" from when the character became a major druggie and before she fixed her life.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Hang in there deg. You will be alright.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

Actually she took it from a 25 year old in the alley, and a couple hours later she called for ride from a guy she met a week before...he showed up with a friend and it was they who double teamed her at his house...

even worse


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

thanks 2ntnuf...I think so...you might wanna get a part time job as a counselor...


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

Lastly...here is the list I provided to one of my therapists of what she had done after separation...I am truly saying goodbye to her with this...



Had sex multiple times with a single teacher in his classroom during lunch and breaks…he did work on our house …I knew of him as her friend

* Had sex with a married janitor multiple times in the boiler room during school hours. He wanted to leave his wife for her.

* Got involved in numerous threesomes with married couples she met online, or through a covert social circle. Sexually involved with the wives in these incidents as well. Said she did this with the women in these situations to turn on the man, and that she isn’t aroused fully by women

* Was in a threesome while the married couple’s children slept in a room across the hall

* Was in a threesome where the male tried to choke, urinate, and spit on her. She told me she was scared, but never left the situation.

She was in a threesome where the male made his wife cry, and attempted to get my wife to lick the tears away.

* Involved with my ex friend still, masturbating to videos they made of each other masturbating, along with other porn. Other males were exchanging these types of videos with her as well.

* Told me I was a mistake, she should have kept me as renter instead of a husband ( I moved into her home after we met )

* Constantly lied to me, to her kids, to friends. Effortlessly and smoothly, mind you…pathological even…usually about her whereabouts and not fabricated style lies.

* Told me the flowers I sent her every Valentine’s Day was just to make me look good in front of her friends, and that it was stupid

* Had sex with a 25 yr old friend of her younger niece’s in an alley after the bars, then, in the same evening, had a threesome with two guys who high fived each other while they f***ed her.

* Showed me a video of her having sex with a man she picked up at a bar, in our bedroom… it was on her phone and she insisted I see it. This was damaging.

* Throughout last summer, I gave her money, did her favours, and even gave her toilet paper and food since she is/was financially strapped (She has not sold the house yet…I took a buyout). But, after doing so, she would dismiss my texts, avoid me, and would not respond to my texts.

* Had errant sex with strangers…she never wore protection in any of these situations

* Her son needed new shoes, and she told him she had no money. Two days later she bought a vibrator for 100.00 and he still had no new shoes

* Showed her sex video to a group of women at a fantasia party, like she was bragging

* Frequently dismissed me after I took her to dinner or spent time with her, as if I was disposable

* Had her Visa at 0 balance in September, maxed out at 8000.00 in December...borrowed large amount of money from an aunt, and small amount from me

* Said she hated me near the end of the marriage

* Wondered why one of her hook-ups never said she was “beautiful”

* Asked me for a bar of soap right after we had sex…put it in her purse…likely for her next “session”

* Often said hurtful things to me about myself

* Often said she was sorry she hurt me. Called during separation a few times crying late at night…sounded remorseful/guilt ridden, and a mess!

* Drank quite a bit during these months

* Provided a list of my shortcomings to me…

* Never remained or stayed the night after having sex with these couples/strangers...left right away, or sent them home


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

deg20 said:


> Actually she took it from a 25 year old in the alley, and a couple hours later she called for ride from a guy she met a week before...he showed up with a friend and it was they who double teamed her at his house...
> 
> even worse


She's perverted and sick my friend...

Man you need to put her in the rear view FOREVER.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

She's got major problems deg. She uses sex for validation. When you look at it from 50,000 feet, you will truly be so happy you are done with that....woman .....I can't even think of an appropriate word. If you get down, you can look at that and think, boy am I glad I'm done with that mess. She is not worth one moment of thought.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Nasty.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

She is a parody of a so-called hot wife. 

She is extremely mentally damaged.

She probably did love you but when it comes down to it, who cares if she loved or loves you or not?

She is far too damaged at such a deep level that she is pretty much beyond help.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

MattMatt said:


> She is a parody of a so-called hot wife.
> 
> She is extremely mentally damaged.
> 
> ...


Again, I want to believe she is mentally damaged. I want to believe she is beyond help. Maybe as an excuse to why this all happened outside of me as a person or husband that somehow could have factored in.

5 therapists I've seen, 2 experts in Personality Disorders, and a multiple of people in which I've explained her behaviour to have all come to this conclusion in one way or another...

I've heard claims from all these professionals that she's one or more of the following: Bi-Polar, Sex Addict, Sociopath, Mid-Life Crisis candidate, Narcissist, Narcissist with Sociopathic tendencies, Sexually Deviant with "no" disorders, Sporadically addicted to sex as a coping mechanism, and so on...

I've come to grasp that their is definitely something not right, and I guess that I'm the kind of guy that likes/needs things to have a label for validation...but in this case, it doesn't matter...she is/was broken. Maybe she can fix herself, maybe not, but it's not my concern...and maybe I'm more fascinated with this mess than I am caring for her...but day by day her memory is fading in my mind...


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

borderline personality disorder, read up on it.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

deg, 

You might want to consider having this thread locked or deleting it, and the other one. Maybe you can then start a new one for the positive things you are doing and suggestions to help you?

No sense in taking two steps forward and one back. Sometimes it can be three back.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

No need to lock or delete, since I like to refer back to everyone's input...and I will start a positive thread...point taken


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## txcouple903 (Sep 29, 2012)

I understand exactly what your going through and you can do it. I left my wife 42 days ago and although it's been hard I am okay with my choice. 

My wife has gone on a roller coaster since I kicked her out. Got supposedly a friend she isn't sleeping with but he spends the night with her. Wants to string me along and using our kids as weapons. It's been a rough road but I'm doing better. 

I know she loves me because she keeps talking to me and every time I see her she gives me a hug. It's all crap but I go along with it because I don't have full custody yet. 

She says she doesn't love me anymore but I wouldn't believe anything she says at this point. 

The point is it's going to hurt for a while. I'm still hurt but I'm dealing with it. She tells me one thing and tell my kids something different. 

Until she gets stable this is what will happen between us.

My wife is a sex addict and I don't believe she has went this long without sex.


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## deg20 (Apr 10, 2015)

txcouple903 said:


> I understand exactly what your going through and you can do it. I left my wife 42 days ago and although it's been hard I am okay with my choice.
> 
> My wife has gone on a roller coaster since I kicked her out. Got supposedly a friend she isn't sleeping with but he spends the night with her. Wants to string me along and using our kids as weapons. It's been a rough road but I'm doing better.
> 
> ...


But if she's sleeping with one guy, as you say, that's far from an addict...do you know if there are many guys? My heart goes out to you if she is as bad as my wife was, with couples and younger guys and strangers, ...then please take heed. And yes, the lying is par for the course, like it's nothing...I'm still not sure my ex was an addict or if she was just going through something after leaving...doesn't matter...it paints a dark and disgusting picture of the woman that we chose and thought was something else...


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