# Loss of a child - long story



## Good Guy

Ok this could go in nearly any forum section in here as there are elements of Sex In Marriage and Infidelity, but I think Dealing with Grief and Loss is maybe the most appropriate.

We are both in our mid 40s. I've been married now for 20 years, and we had some children together. Our marriage was reasonably happy, but for me was on a slow decline, especially sexually, although my wife doesn't think so. Maybe twice a month we had sex. Otherwise we got on OK, but she was very controlling of everything, and as long as I went along with everything, things went fine. She also had some health issues, not serious, but they made her tired all the time - or so she said - more on this later. I really loved her.

6 years ago we lost a child to cancer, the child was not yet a teenager but was well beyond the age of reason, and had been in school several years. Needless to say it was a devastating loss. After our child died, my wife and youngest child cried all the time, while our eldest child and I bottled it all up. I would come home from work and my wife would cry every night. It was tearing me to pieces. I was close to a mental breakdown. To try to deal with it, after a few weeks I said I was "over" our child's death (of course that was a load of horse manure - but I thought it would help). After that my wife cried less in front of me. In every other way I did my best to be the best husband and father I could be. My wife didn't connect with our eldest child at all so I became the dad to my eldest and she became the mum to our youngest. This dynamic still exists to this day. 
My wife is the kind of person who would prefer to believe in the fantasy rather than face reality - when our child first was diagnosed with a totally incurable cancer until the morning our child died, she believed he would survive - I knew from day one he wouldn't - a 0.0001% 5 year survival rate doesn't lie.

In the last year of school there was a male teacher who took care of our child even though our child was quite sick at times, and was really brilliant with him. He is also married with small children and about 10 years younger than us. He was then teaching our youngest child, about a year later, so my wife had the occasion to talk to him when at the school. She talked about him a lot, and how his wife was a horrible witch - even though she seemed like a nice enough person to me. I suspected something was going on with her at least, but any mention of him or his wife my me would result in hysterical accusations of me being paranoid, jealous, etc. We had a joint birthday party and she invited him, but he didn't come. His wife was rude with my wife, but perfectly fine with me.

During this time, she started listening to new music, started running, lost a lot of weight and got really fit, ran a marathon. She was managing our finances, and they fell to pieces, I discovered she had ran up nearly $20K in credit card debt. She lost all interest in me and our eldest, to the extent that one day I started getting chest pains in a car park (it was stress related) and she didn't seem to care in the least - I had to get a taxi to the hospital for tests. Any interaction with me was mean and spiteful - even when I was trying to do housework to help her the criticism and nitpicking was endless. Our sex life was about once every 3 months and she had to get drunk first. I tried to talk to her about all of this several times to no avail.

About 1 1/2 years ago now things began to slowly improve between us. We talked, had sex about once a month again, and she seemed in a slightly better mood. She still said she had no interest in sex, but would do it for me. About a year ago she went away for a weekend to visit her parents. I'm not proud of this but I got suspicious and had a snoop through her wardrobe. What I found shocked me. A book about all sorts of sex stories - not 50 shades, more like written hardcore porn. 3 different vibrators. I don't care and am not a prude, but this was completely the opposite of the image she presented to me. Her diary, detailing how she fantasised about this teacher, and how she hated having sex with me, and how any time she did it, or dreamed about sex, she thought about him. This is ironic since she said if I thought about someone else while having sex with her, she would consider it cheating. She detailed how she could attract him, how to break up his marriage with his wife. How she could have an affair with him without me finding out (according to her that part was easy) and without his wife finding out about it (harder). She sent him a few texts, even inviting him over one Christmas, and acting like a lovesick teenager around him. He moved schools, and she got her friend to drive her out to see his new school. She sent him a letter thanking him for taking care of our son, and at the end was lots of stuff about going out for a drink together, how he was a bit of a flirt but so was she, and how handsome he was, and signed it off with Love, my wife. She also sent him several texts, relatively innocuous, but one was asking him to go for a drink with her.

I went ballistic and seriously considered kicking her out. Basically she had been lying to me for years. She says she doesn't remember any of it. We went to a psychiatrist on my request, and she (the psychiatrist) said it was quite possible she couldn't remember anything. Sorry I don't buy that. I know people will say that people cope with grief in different ways, but I had a female friend that I really get on well with and find extremely attractive come on to me in this period, and I declined, because I still had some respect for my wife. I'm not trying to paint myself as perfect, far from it, but I was always there for her, except for the crying every evening period, and I told her that I couldn't deal with that.

Now our relationship is "good" on the surface, but I am still bitter and resentful that she abandoned us when things got tough. I also don't trust her in the least anymore. I'm not sure what I'm looking for or what to say, but I'd like to hear people's thoughts on the matter. I'm really only with her for the convenience factor at the moment. Any love I had is gone. Mostly I'm just desperately sad at what happened to us, and how she couldn't be honest with me.


----------



## Chris Taylor

It's quite possible that the stress of having a dying child, even though she "believed" the child would live, led her to engage in an alternative, escape life. I'm not justifying it. But I doubt this happened AFTER your child died. It probably grew as the situation with your child deteriorated.

I would suggest continuing with professional help. My personal counselor was invaluable for me with the loss of my son and our marriage counselor kept my wife and I together. This is a huge loss in our lives and sometimes we never get over it. Sometimes we falter in our morality because we feel morality has let us down. Don't give up yet.


----------



## NobodySpecial

I cannot even begin to grasp the complexity of the circumstance you face. I guess this is very lame. Counseling to deal with the loss of your child and to ensure you can be the best parent for your remaining kids? Yah, lame.

I am so sorry for your loss. I cannot even speak to your marital issues since it is so out of my scope. I am just sorry for your loss.


----------



## Starstarfish

> Mostly I'm just desperately sad at what happened to us, and how she couldn't be honest with me.


It seems like there was dishonesty on both sides here. You lied to her about your feeling's on your child's death so you didn't have to deal with her sadness anymore. You emotionally shut yourself off from her and the situation because as had seen your child's death as inevitable and I think saw her grief as unnecessary. You should have gone to family counseling or something at that point if you had gone then rather than later, some of this might have been headed off at the pass. 

As she then in turn I think went emotionally dead towards you and then started some kind of emotional affair, potentially mostly fantasy and one sided with the teacher who she might have envisioned actually had cared about your child. 



> Now our relationship is "good" on the surface, but I am still bitter and resentful that she abandoned us when things got tough.


And you honestly don't see how you did the same thing? 



> I declined, because I still had some respect for my wife. I'm not trying to paint myself as perfect, far from it, but I was always there for her, except for the crying every evening period, and I told her that I couldn't deal with that.


So you were always there for her, except for that time when she really needed you and you just couldn't "deal with that."

Assuming this is all honest, while I don't think her mapped out plan to cheat with and seduce the teacher was in any way right, I think you both dealt with the death of your child very poorly and turned away from each other. I think that your anger and resentment is kind of misplaced as you have similar ills. 

You want to fix this, get yourself in counseling.


----------



## jld

I am so sorry, Good Guy. So, so sorry. ((((((((((Good Guy))))))))))

Our ds17 has had cancer (AML) twice. Last time he got it, when he was 13, they told us he had a 25% chance of making it to 18. He is still with us, but anything can happen, as you well know. 

I can only imagine your pain.  I can only imagine her pain. 

Losing a child can kill a parent emotionally. I don't know how any parent ever gets over it. I know we never would.

Could you give your wife some grace over what she did? Could you extend understanding and compassion? It doesn't sound like the other man reciprocated. I think he understood how fragile and vulnerable she was at that time.

Otoh, if the marriage was rocky before your son's death, it could just be that ending it now would be a gift to both of you.

Again, just so very, very sorry for all your pain, and hers.


----------



## Scannerguard

Yeah, if your wife doesn't own up to it (and the psyche enables this), I am not sure what you can do.

I think we all have the capacity to understand (but never fully) the devastating grief you endured and maybe you were emotionally cold about it at times (you said you shut it off) but this doesn't excuse her behavior.

But. . .my superficial examination is this - at least she IS sexual, right? There IS perhaps hope on that front. She's just been lying about it and hiding it from you all those years.

Yeah, it's a lame recommendation - counseling. . .but I would really try to find one who doesn't mind getting their hands dirty - wading knee deep into the "crap" so to speak. I find so many of them sort of lean back in their chair and say, "So. . .how does that make you feel?" or "Tell me why you can't work it out."

Holy crap, if I did that in my job, I'd be fired. 

You need someone to wade deep into this.


----------



## Good Guy

Starstarfish said:


> It seems like there was dishonesty on both sides here. You lied to her about your feeling's on your child's death so you didn't have to deal with her sadness anymore. You emotionally shut yourself off from her and the situation because as had seen your child's death as inevitable and I think saw her grief as unnecessary. You should have gone to family counseling or something at that point if you had gone then rather than later, some of this might have been headed off at the pass.


At the time, I genuinely felt as if it was "over" - I wasn't consciously lying to her. I had spent months waiting for the inevitable, trying to stay happy and strong for my son so we could all have fun together - as did she. I really did understand her need to grieve - I just couldn't deal with my style of grief and hers at the same time.



Starstarfish said:


> As she then in turn I think went emotionally dead towards you and then started some kind of emotional affair, potentially mostly fantasy and one sided with the teacher who she might have envisioned actually had cared about your child.


Yes I see that.



And you honestly don't see how you did the same thing? 





Starstarfish said:


> So you were always there for her, except for that time when she really needed you and you just couldn't "deal with that."
> 
> Assuming this is all honest, while I don't think her mapped out plan to cheat with and seduce the teacher was in any way right, I think you both dealt with the death of your child very poorly and turned away from each other. I think that your anger and resentment is kind of misplaced as you have similar ills.
> 
> You want to fix this, get yourself in counseling.


Well unless you've had a child die, you don't know how you will feel or react. It's not some sort of exam you have to pass. :frown2: I agree with you though, I wish I could have been stronger, but it was a choice between sitting at home all day crying or going to work and keeping us from becoming homeless - I chose going to work. It literally took all the willpower I had to do it.


----------



## EleGirl

The both of you would benefit from going to counseling together. There seems to be a lot unspoken between you and a lot of healing that needs to be done.

Most marriages do not survive the death of a child.

I lost two at birth. It's not an easy thing to go through. And I think that most people who have not gone through it don't quite understand how overwhelming it is and how it distorts a person's thinking.

And yep, we ended up divorced.


----------



## Anon1111

tough story. I can't imagine the level of anguish you and your wife must have experienced.

I guess the question is whether you think the current improvement is genuine and whether you can be satisfied just focusing on that.


----------



## jld

I really don't think she was trying to hurt you. I think she was just trying to survive, herself.


----------



## Good Guy

Scannerguard said:


> Yeah, if your wife doesn't own up to it (and the psyche enables this), I am not sure what you can do.
> 
> I think we all have the capacity to understand (but never fully) the devastating grief you endured and maybe you were emotionally cold about it at times (you said you shut it off) but this doesn't excuse her behavior.
> 
> But. . .my superficial examination is this - at least she IS sexual, right? There IS perhaps hope on that front. She's just been lying about it and hiding it from you all those years.
> 
> Yeah, it's a lame recommendation - counseling. . .but I would really try to find one who doesn't mind getting their hands dirty - wading knee deep into the "crap" so to speak. I find so many of them sort of lean back in their chair and say, "So. . .how does that make you feel?" or "Tell me why you can't work it out."
> 
> Holy crap, if I did that in my job, I'd be fired.
> 
> You need someone to wade deep into this.


Absolutely agree. We had some counselling of the style above, but my wife is a very good talker and can talk herself out of opening up easily. We need someone like Robin Williams character in Good Will Hunting, who will dig into the uncomfortable areas. The fact she says she doesn't remember is what kills me.


----------



## Good Guy

EleGirl said:


> The both of you would benefit from going to counseling together. There seems to be a lot unspoken between you and a lot of healing that needs to be done.
> 
> Most marriages do not survive the death of a child.
> 
> I lost two at birth. It's not an easy thing to go through. And I think that most people who have not gone through it don't quite understand how overwhelming it is and how it distorts a person's thinking.
> 
> And yep, we ended up divorced.


So sorry to hear that


----------



## EleGirl

Good Guy said:


> Well unless you've had a child die, you don't know how you will feel or react. It's not some sort of exam you have to pass. :frown2: I agree with you though, I wish I could have been stronger, but it was a choice between sitting at home all day crying or going to work and keeping us from becoming homeless - I chose going to work. It literally took all the willpower I had to do it.


The bottom line is that you both dealt with your grief in your own way. And you both did not work together to over come the grief so you grew apart.

You say that you do not trust her now.

Does she trust you now? Have you asked her?


----------



## jld

Good Guy said:


> Absolutely agree. We had some counselling of the style above, but my wife is a very good talker and can talk herself out of opening up easily. We need someone like Robin Williams character in Good Will Hunting, who will dig into the uncomfortable areas. The fact she says she doesn't remember is what kills me.


You want her to acknowledge your pain. That would be very healing for you.


----------



## Good Guy

jld said:


> You want her to acknowledge your pain. That would be very healing for you.


She does acknowledge my pain. I've told her I don't believe she doesn't remember, but she swears she doesn't remember writing all those diary entries.


----------



## jld

Good Guy said:


> She does acknowledge my pain. I've told her I don't believe she doesn't remember, but she swears she doesn't remember writing all those diary entries.


You think she is afraid to be truthful with you about it?


----------



## Good Guy

EleGirl said:


> The bottom line is that you both dealt with your grief in your own way. And you both did not work together to over come the grief so you grew apart.
> 
> You say that you do not trust her now.
> 
> Does she trust you now? Have you asked her?


She says she does. She is in many ways a better wife now than she ever was before. It's my lack of belief and trust that is the problem for me - that this is all somehow an act to keep me from leaving.


----------



## Anon1111

best case scenario is that you are extremely charitable to one other.

nobody else but the two of you really understands the magnitude of your loss. you better than anyone can understand why she lost her mind temporarily.

this is potential for a powerful bond.


----------



## Good Guy

jld said:


> You think she is afraid to be truthful with you about it?


I don't know, either that or she doesn't want to upset her self image. She told me with a straight face that she never lies about anything. When I point her out in a small lie - as everyone does - she does mental gymnastics to show she hasn't lied. It's really strange.

For example, did you move my wash bag from the bathroom - she says no - then I discover she has moved it under the sink in the bathroom, but she doesn't think it relevant to tell me that. Or she will say she thought it was some other wash bag that I never use or some such ridiculous explanation.

The mountain of lies proved by the diary she explains by "I don't remember writing any of it".


----------



## Scannerguard

> Absolutely agree. We had some counselling of the style above, but my wife is a very good talker and can talk herself out of opening up easily. We need someone like Robin Williams character in Good Will Hunting, who will dig into the uncomfortable areas. The fact she says she doesn't remember is what kills me.


Yeah, actually, again, my superficial examination leads me to believe the sex is actually salvageable. . .so, big deal, she had a "thing" for this teacher, a huge emotional, physical crush but at least she never got the chance to act on it (thank God for that). My guess is you could deal with THAT if she acknowledged it. Even people in STABLE circumstances get crushes. . .so that's just being human. She certainly is withholding her sexuality from you though and Bullpucky she doesn't remember it (I see a smile at the corner of her face as she says that).

But truthfully, my alarm is going off with the credit card debt honestly. She is purposefully and willfully attempting to sabotage the partnership, the long term success.

That kind of behavior is "I don't give a F." She's cashing her chips out for crapola at the mall or salon or whatever.


----------



## Anon1111

separate out your need to be "right" and to get her to admit something.

you know what she did. the only question is whether you can be cool with it. getting her to admit it won't change the facts and is really not the main issue. 

is it in the past? has she moved on?


----------



## Good Guy

Scannerguard said:


> Yeah, actually, again, my superficial examination leads me to believe the sex is actually salvageable. . .so, big deal, she had a "thing" for this teacher, a huge emotional, physical crush but at least she never got the chance to act on it (thank God for that). My guess is you could deal with THAT if she acknowledged it. Even people in STABLE circumstances get crushes. . .so that's just being human. She certainly is withholding her sexuality from you though and Bullpucky she doesn't remember it (I see a smile at the corner of her face as she says that).
> 
> But truthfully, my alarm is going off with the credit card debt honestly. She is purposefully and willfully attempting to sabotage the partnership, the long term success.
> 
> That kind of behavior is "I don't give a F." She's cashing her chips out for crapola at the mall or salon or whatever.


Actually I have to clarify a few points here.

1. Our sex life is now great, we have loads of sex now. Might be to do with the fact that I've really gotten into shape myself, I don't know.

2. Yeah I agree with you on the crush thing and the sex. No way she doesn't remember that. Also I had a crush myself and had an opportunity to act on it, and didn't, even though I was sorely tempted - and still am, if I'm honest about it. I told her that though, including who it was and what happened. Nothing like her obsession though.

3. The credit card debt is nearly all paid off. I insisted on monthly meetings and a plan to pay it off, and it's worked really well. So that's ancient history.


----------



## jld

Thing is, Good Guy, you lied to her, too. Have you ever acknowledged that to her?


----------



## Good Guy

Anon1111 said:


> separate out your need to be "right" and to get her to admit something.
> 
> you know what she did. the only question is whether you can be cool with it. getting her to admit it won't change the facts and is really not the main issue.
> 
> is it in the past? has she moved on?


I'm OK with all of it - I get it and see completely why she would be attracted to this guy. What I'm not OK with is that she won't acknowledge it to me. It means I can't trust her and will never see the real her. That's the problem for me.


----------



## Scannerguard

> 1. Our sex life is now great, we have loads of sex now. Might be to do with the fact that I've really gotten into shape myself, I don't know.
> 
> 2. Yeah I agree with you on the crush thing and the sex. No way she doesn't remember that. Also I had a crush myself and had an opportunity to act on it, and didn't, even though I was sorely tempted - and still am, if I'm honest about it. I told her that though, including who it was and what happened. Nothing like her obsession though.
> 
> 3. The credit card debt is nearly all paid off. I insisted on monthly meetings and a plan to pay it off, and it's worked really well. So that's ancient history.


So why are we here?


----------



## Good Guy

jld said:


> Thing is, Good Guy, you lied to her, too. Have you ever acknowledged that to her?


How exactly did I lie to her? If you mean about saying I was over the death of my son, at the time I thought I was. I apologized to her many many times about it that I couldn't be there for her and that I thought I was over it.


----------



## Good Guy

Scannerguard said:


> So why are we here?


I'm OK with all of it - I get it and see completely why she would be attracted to this guy. What I'm not OK with is that she won't acknowledge it to me. It means I can't trust her and will never see the real her. That's the problem for me.


----------



## jld

You lied to her. You said you thought it would help. That was your justification.



Good Guy said:


> To try to deal with it, after a few weeks I said I was "over" our child's death (of course that was a load of horse manure - *but I thought it would help*).


I am pointing this out because I bet she has her reasons for doing what she has done, or is doing, too. 

Trying to convict her, show her all the ways she is wrong, is not going to increase her trust, her willingness to be honest with you. Not in my opinion, anyway.

Honestly and openly admitting your own faults, including when you lie, could. It could make it safe for her to admit her imperfections, too.


----------



## Chris Taylor

jld said:


> You lied to her. You said you thought it would help. That was your justification.
> 
> 
> 
> I am pointing this out because I bet she has her reasons for doing what she has done, or is doing, too.
> 
> Trying to convict her, show her all the ways she is wrong, is not going to increase her trust, her willingness to be honest with you. Not in my opinion, anyway.
> 
> Honestly and openly admitting your own faults, including when you lie, could. It could make it safe for her to admit her imperfections, too.


I'm sorry but I see two different things here.

A while after my son died I told my wife it was time to move on with our lives, to get back into a more "normal" life. I said that to try to move her out of the despair hole she was in. Was I ready to move on? Hell no. But I tried to be the strong one in the relationship.

Comparing OP's efforts in trying to help his wife cope with this loss to her thoughts of infidelity and apparently lying about it is just crazy.


----------



## Scannerguard

> I'm OK with all of it - I get it and see completely why she would be attracted to this guy. What I'm not OK with is that she won't acknowledge it to me. It means I can't trust her and will never see the real her. That's the problem for me.


If you want to explore a tangential thread - go find under General Relationship thread my thread I did on "Anyone here Poly?" It's NOT about swinging.

It makes me think of it because well, you obviously have the fundamentals/foundations of your relationship down okay - solid finances, lots of sex. And while it's very easy for all of us to become distracted by the death of your child, well, it's NOT ABOUT YOUR CHILD. It's about you, as a couple. Not everything CAN nor SHOULD be about your loss/him/her.

You both haven't come to terms with the fact that on some level you are polyamorous - capable of loving, or at least having a crush on someone else. This is by YOUR own admission as well.

So. . .well. . .I am totally NOT suggesting you live some kind of "weird hippy lifestyle" but understanding how you are wired with YOUR crush and understanding how your wife is wired with hers, which you seem to get, and somehow figuring out TOGETHER how you want to act on it, or not act on it (usually not seems to be the way) would be therapeutic. She needs to come to terms with it and is probably having some amount of self-loathing in that she is wired this way.

This is assuming that everything as grand as you posted, and I have no reason to doubt you.

The enemy here appears to be shame.


----------



## jld

Chris Taylor said:


> I'm sorry but I see two different things here.
> 
> A while after my son died I told my wife it was time to move on with our lives, to get back into a more "normal" life. I said that to try to move her out of the despair hole she was in. Was I ready to move on? Hell no. But I tried to be the strong one in the relationship.
> 
> Comparing OP's efforts in trying to help his wife cope with this loss to her thoughts of infidelity and apparently lying about it is just crazy.


I don't think so. Neither of them was transparent with the other. She may think she is protecting him by not being truthful with him.

I think there is a lot of strength in just being open and honest, and doing whatever you can to keep yourself going. That example alone is very powerful.

I am sorry to hear of your loss, btw. So very sorry.


----------



## Good Guy

jld said:


> You lied to her. You said you thought it would help. That was your justification.
> 
> 
> 
> I am pointing this out because I bet she has her reasons for doing what she has done, or is doing, too.
> 
> Trying to convict her, show her all the ways she is wrong, is not going to increase her trust, her willingness to be honest with you. Not in my opinion, anyway.
> 
> Honestly and openly admitting your own faults, including when you lie, could. It could make it safe for her to admit her imperfections, too.


I meant I thought it would make her see my position. I certainly didn't lie at the time. The horse manure comment was retrospective - I realized later it wasn't true, that's what I meant by that. At the time I believed it to be true. I'm not saying I never lied about anything to her - of course I have, and told her as much. I didn't lie about that though.

I told her I used at porn and what sort of porn I used. I told her about the other woman I had a crush on and what almost happened between us. I told her about any woman I had any interaction with (a few came on to me) during the course of our marriage. I told her to ask me anything and I would tell her honestly the truth, if she would be honest with me. The response : "I can't remember any of it".


----------



## Good Guy

Scannerguard said:


> If you want to explore a tangential thread - go find under General Relationship thread my thread I did on "Anyone here Poly?" It's NOT about swinging.
> 
> It makes me think of it because well, you obviously have the fundamentals/foundations of your relationship down okay - solid finances, lots of sex. And while it's very easy for all of us to become distracted by the death of your child, well, it's NOT ABOUT YOUR CHILD. It's about you, as a couple. Not everything CAN nor SHOULD be about your loss/him/her.
> 
> You both haven't come to terms with the fact that on some level you are polyamorous - capable of loving, or at least having a crush on someone else. This is by YOUR own admission as well.
> 
> So. . .well. . .I am totally NOT suggesting you live some kind of "weird hippy lifestyle" but understanding how you are wired with YOUR crush and understanding how your wife is wired with hers, which you seem to get, and somehow figuring out TOGETHER how you want to act on it, or not act on it (usually not seems to be the way) would be therapeutic. She needs to come to terms with it and is probably having some amount of self-loathing in that she is wired this way.
> 
> This is assuming that everything as grand as you posted, and I have no reason to doubt you.
> 
> The enemy here appears to be shame.


You could have a point. I'm not ashamed though, but she quite possibly is. We did the whole mojo upgrade thing to get things back on track, and she was OK with some stuff (oral is fine, different positions, no anal - but I don't like that either !). Nothing with other people - I'm fine with that too. Roleplay was one I really wanted to do but "that's cheating" according to her.


----------



## jld

We have not gone through the death of our son, and I hope we never do. But I can tell you that just hearing the diagnosis the first time was traumatizing for each of us.

Dug cried. Not right away, but after a day or so. Maybe a half day. I had never seen him cry before. I was stunned, and terrified.

I, in turn, felt like I was living a nightmare. An absolute parental nightmare. And people I told had the nerve to cry, which made me feel like I needed to comfort them. Comfort _them. _Totally ****** up.

Bottom line, events like losing your child can take you to places, emotionally, that you never imagined you would go. Forgiveness, and compassion, and understanding, imo, are critical.

GG, have you read the book _Hold Me Tight_, by Sue Johnson?


----------



## jld

Good Guy said:


> I meant I thought it would make her see my position. I certainly didn't lie at the time. The horse manure comment was retrospective - I realized later it wasn't true, that's what I meant by that. At the time I believed it to be true. I'm not saying I never lied about anything to her - of course I have, and told her as much. I didn't lie about that though.
> 
> I told her I used at porn and what sort of porn I used. I told her about the other woman I had a crush on and what almost happened between us. I told her about any woman I had any interaction with (a few came on to me) during the course of our marriage. I told her to ask me anything and I would tell her honestly the truth, *if she would be honest with me.* The response : "I can't remember any of it".


Why did you put a condition on it?

GG, I am not trying to be hard on you. I am just trying to help you see another side to all this.

Your wife may simply not be a truthful person. Or she may not be able to be truthful with you. Or she may be truthful in some areas and not in others.

I do think that people are more likely to be truthful if they do not fear the consequences of being truthful. If she is afraid to lose the marriage, then she is not going to be willing to be truthful unless you can assure her she has nothing to fear.

Can you honestly assure her of that?


----------



## Good Guy

jld said:


> We have not gone through the death of our son, and I hope we never do. But I can tell you that just hearing the diagnosis the first time was traumatizing for each of us.
> 
> Dug cried. Not right away, but after a day or so. Maybe a half day. I had never seen him cry before. I was stunned, and terrified.
> 
> I, in turn, felt like I was living a nightmare. An absolute parental nightmare. And people I told had the nerve to cry, which made me feel like I needed to comfort them. Comfort _them. _Totally ****** up.
> 
> Bottom line, events like losing your child can take you to places, emotionally, that you never imagined you would go. Forgiveness, and compassion, and understanding, imo, are critical.
> 
> GG, have you read the book _Hold Me Tight_, by Sue Johnson?


Been there jld - it is the worst possible experience imaginable. I would have gladly taken a bullet to the head if it could have saved my son's life - and still would. 

I haven't read the book, I avoid any books / films about dying or sick children.


----------



## Good Guy

jld said:


> Why did you put a condition on it?
> 
> GG, I am not trying to be hard on you. I am just trying to help you see another side to all this.
> 
> Your wife may simply not be a truthful person. Or she may not be able to be truthful with you. Or she may be truthful in some areas and not in others.
> 
> I do think that people are more likely to be truthful if they do not fear the consequences of being truthful. If she is afraid to lose the marriage, then she is not going to be willing to be truthful unless you can assure her she has nothing to fear.
> 
> Can you honestly assure her of that?


I hoped by being brutally honest of my own free will about things she would have had no chance of finding out otherwise would have made her reciprocate. A covert contract I guess.

I can absolutely assure her that. In fact I've told her that it is the whole "I can't remember" thing that is putting our marriage in jeopardy.


----------



## Good Guy

I'll put it another way - If I had been trying to bed a woman for 2 years at that time, wrote copious notes about it every day, and how much of a useless ***** she was, and how I fantasized about another woman when I was with her, would she believe me if I said "I can't remember" ?


----------



## Good Guy

I do remember one big lie I told at the time - the biggest lie of my life.

When my son turned to me after a bout of radiotherapy and said "Dad, am I going to die ?" and I said "No". He had asked mum first but didn't trust her to tell him the truth.


----------



## jld

Good Guy said:


> Been there jld - it is the worst possible experience imaginable. I would have gladly taken a bullet to the head if it could have saved my son's life - and still would.


Oh my god. Oh my god, no kidding. I would take his cancer any day, die right now if I could spare him of that. So would my husband.

Oh, God, why could it not have been me?



> I haven't read the book, I avoid any books / films about dying or sick children.


Sweetheart, it is not that. It is about sharing our honest feelings with our spouses. It is about being completely vulnerable with them. Opening our hearts, letting them see our wounds. And seeing theirs in return.

Totally agree on not reading about our situations. I cannot bear it, either. I almost could not read your post this morning after I saw the word "cancer" and "teenager" in it. 

And even then, I had to go find my son and tell him how much I loved him, and ask him if he is happy with his life. I don't know how much longer we will have him, you know? What if his cancer is back tomorrow? Life is so fragile. 

My husband called a little bit ago and I told him about your thread. He will read it tonight. He said you cannot expect your wife to carry you. He said she is carrying her own load, and you need to help her.

It is so hard for a mother, GG. I carried my son in my womb, nursed him over 3 years. His death would devastate Dug, no doubt. But I am his mother. You just cannot compare the impact, and what it can do to a woman.


----------



## jld

Good Guy said:


> I do remember one big lie I told at the time - the biggest lie of my life.
> 
> When my son turned to me after a bout of radiotherapy and said "Dad, am I going to die ?" and I said "No". He had asked mum first but didn't trust her to tell him the truth.


(((((((Good Guy)))))))) 

I am so sorry. I am just so sorry. 

This whole exchange is making me cry. My heart is beating for your pain, GG, and for your wife's. I feel it very intensely. It could so easily be Dug and I next.


----------



## jld

Good Guy said:


> I hoped by being brutally honest of my own free will about things she would have had no chance of finding out otherwise would have made her reciprocate. A covert contract I guess.
> 
> I can absolutely assure her that. In fact I've told her that it is the whole "I can't remember" thing that is putting our marriage in jeopardy.


She needs that psychiatrist then. I can only imagine what kind of shape she might be in, mentally, emotionally.



Good Guy said:


> I'll put it another way - If I had been trying to bed a woman for 2 years at that time, wrote copious notes about it every day, and how much of a useless ***** she was, and how I fantasized about another woman when I was with her, would she believe me if I said "I can't remember" ?


If she were strong, she would see your fragility, your vulnerability. She would forgive you, and hold you, and reassure you with her presence, her love.

I would do that for Dug. We have to hold each other during the hard times. We are not ourselves then.


----------



## KillerClown

Do you want to stay married or do want out? 

If instead she had made a photoshopped scrapbook with her and Justin Timberlake would you still have anguished so much over it?

A person's mind is not always pretty. Sometimes, if you want to enjoy eating sausage you need to stop thinking about how it's made or what's in it.

It's a whole different story if you want to walk away from this marriage.


----------



## MEM2020

YES 




jld said:


> I really don't think she was trying to hurt you. I think she was just trying to survive, herself.


----------



## jld

MEM2020 said:


> YES


So glad you are here, MEM. GG needs your wise, compassionate, gentle approach. 
@Duguesclin will be here tonight.


----------



## Anon1111

Good Guy said:


> I'll put it another way - If I had been trying to bed a woman for 2 years at that time, wrote copious notes about it every day, and how much of a useless ***** she was, and how I fantasized about another woman when I was with her, would she believe me if I said "I can't remember" ?


it's f-d up, there is no question.

I think you should tell her 1 time in a calm way that you can't understand why she would deny this when it is very clear what happened.

Let her know that you're disappointed by this and that may do further damage to your relationship.

You could say that you are pleased at the direction things have been headed and you would hope that she would be interested in fostering greater trust.

At that point she can decide if she wants to take a different approach or not.

And you can decide what you need to do if she doesn't.

As you are deciding, you might consider that she might not want to revisit that time in her head and that she is trying to move on and save face in some fashion.

You don't have to go along with that, obviously.


----------



## CantePe

Good Guy said:


> Absolutely agree. We had some counselling of the style above, but my wife is a very good talker and can talk herself out of opening up easily. We need someone like Robin Williams character in Good Will Hunting, who will dig into the uncomfortable areas. The fact she says she doesn't remember is what kills me.


It's called selective amnesia. It's a subconscious burying of details to protect the conscious mind and preserve the being.

You see it happen in these situations quite often. The pain is too great for the person to consciously deal with that the subconscious mind buries it and causes the person the inability to remember it. It's a self preservation coping mechanism that required intensive therapy to both reverse and deal with head on.

You also see this coping mechanism in sexual assault survivors. Child abuse survivors, anything violently and emotionally traumatic.

Grief is a very strange creature. It drives some of the best and some of the worse behaviors in people.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## Herschel

Even if she can't remember, she still did it. I am not saying anyone knows what is going through her head and how hard this must be. Just, it happened and she did it.


----------



## Good Guy

Thanks everyone, I will respond tomorrow. Some good points here.


----------



## CantePe

Herschel said:


> Even if she can't remember, she still did it. I am not saying anyone knows what is going through her head and how hard this must be. Just, it happened and she did it.


I didn't say she didn't. I'm also not condoning what she did (in fact as a BS, there is no excuse ever for that kind of betrayal and behavior...ever).

I'm just saying she may be experiencing selective amnesia due to the grief of losing a child. She may actually be telling the truth when she says I don't remember...but now it's on her to seek the therapy to work through it and own her actions whether she remembers or not.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------



## MEM2020

Good,
You cannot coerce transparency. And as the primary breadwinner it is HIGHLY coercive to say: XYZ is putting the marriage in jeopardy. 

Been there - done that - in my experience it was an epic fail. 

Let's skip all the fluff and hit the punch line. G2 said: I HATE having sex with Goodguy. That is the real issue. And given her behavior - a seemingly true statement. 

If it was me - I'd address THAT in a direct and low key manner. 

GG: It's obvious you dislike having sex with me. What can I do to make it better for you?

Be forewarned - it might be physical stuff that you cannot change. 





Good Guy said:


> I hoped by being brutally honest of my own free will about things she would have had no chance of finding out otherwise would have made her reciprocate. A covert contract I guess.
> 
> I can absolutely assure her that. In fact I've told her that it is the whole "I can't remember" thing that is putting our marriage in jeopardy.


----------



## EleGirl

Good Guy said:


> I'll put it another way - If I had been trying to bed a woman for 2 years at that time, wrote copious notes about it every day, and how much of a useless ***** she was, and how I fantasized about another woman when I was with her, would she believe me if I said "I can't remember" ?


Does your wife know that you read her diary?

The problem with diaries is that sometimes they are about a person writing about a fantasy world... a place where she escaped... perhaps a place were your son was not part of it so she could avoid the pain that way.

And that's the problem with reading diaries, you don't know if what you read is just fantasy or not.


----------



## Duguesclin

Good Guy said:


> Been there jld - it is the worst possible experience imaginable. *I would have gladly taken a bullet* to the head if it could have saved my son's life - and still would.
> 
> I haven't read the book, I avoid any books / films about dying or sick children.


I am so sorry for the loss of your child. My heart is hurting for you.

I had often wondered if I really loved my wife and children. Would I give up my life to save theirs? 

The night of my son's cancer diagnosis, as I laid down by his hospital bed, I got the answer. But I also felt powerless. I would take the bullet for him, but it was already too late. The bullet had reached him.

After a few days, I started to see how strong my son was and how weak I was. In those situations we all try to survive, and the adults are often (maybe always) the weakest ones. Our extended family sent a bunch of get well cards, all more depressing than the other. We never showed them to our son. Every one was scared.

Good Guy, like you, your wife was scared to lose her child. Now she is scared to lose her marriage. It is not healthy. 

If you want to save your marriage, you need to get her out of that mode because she cannot do it herself. Your resentment is not helping.

How are your kids coping with it? Are they also scared their parents will get divorced?

Fear of death is OK. Fear of what your spouse is going to do is not.

It is not fair your wife is not able to help you. But that is how it is. You need to remove fear from the equation and right now you are the only one capable of doing it.

Love your wife, listen to her, do not judge her.

The teacher was a good man not to take advantage of her.


----------



## Good Guy

jld said:


> Oh my god. Oh my god, no kidding. I would take his cancer any day, die right now if I could spare him of that. So would my husband.
> 
> Oh, God, why could it not have been me?
> 
> 
> 
> Sweetheart, it is not that. It is about sharing our honest feelings with our spouses. It is about being completely vulnerable with them. Opening our hearts, letting them see our wounds. And seeing theirs in return.
> 
> Totally agree on not reading about our situations. I cannot bear it, either. I almost could not read your post this morning after I saw the word "cancer" and "teenager" in it.
> 
> And even then, I had to go find my son and tell him how much I loved him, and ask him if he is happy with his life. I don't know how much longer we will have him, you know? What if his cancer is back tomorrow? Life is so fragile.
> 
> My husband called a little bit ago and I told him about your thread. He will read it tonight. He said you cannot expect your wife to carry you. He said she is carrying her own load, and you need to help her.
> 
> It is so hard for a mother, GG. I carried my son in my womb, nursed him over 3 years. His death would devastate Dug, no doubt. But I am his mother. You just cannot compare the impact, and what it can do to a woman.


Everrything you say above I agree with.

I agree with your husband too - I wasn't expecting her to carry me at all, and I tried to help her in any way I could. In the circumstances I think I did pretty OK. I remember the first week after diagnosis we had a room near the hospital, and I just wanted to sit in a corner and cry. 

She had a whole network of female friends to call on too for emotional support, and I had literally no one. My family don't live nearby, nor do any of my close friends. I am not whining or complaining about this, or looking for sympathy, it is just how it was. That's why recently I am actively cultivating a social life outside my home - I need to get out more, literally. 

It's not a normal situation. I tried so hard to get through to her in those times, and it obviously wasn't good enough, but it was the best I could do. Probably she saw me as some cold unfeeling ******* when nothing could be further from the truth.


----------



## Good Guy

CantePe said:


> It's called selective amnesia. It's a subconscious burying of details to protect the conscious mind and preserve the being.
> 
> You see it happen in these situations quite often. The pain is too great for the person to consciously deal with that the subconscious mind buries it and causes the person the inability to remember it. It's a self preservation coping mechanism that required intensive therapy to both reverse and deal with head on.
> 
> You also see this coping mechanism in sexual assault survivors. Child abuse survivors, anything violently and emotionally traumatic.
> 
> Grief is a very strange creature. It drives some of the best and some of the worse behaviors in people.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


She definitely doesn't want to go back there - that's something she's said several times. She said it was a deep dark place, and she doesn't want to revisit it. She also had a collection of pictures of the guy she found online - she does remember collecting them and being worried about why she was doing it. She freely admits to that. So there may be something in what you are saying.


----------



## Good Guy

Duguesclin said:


> I am so sorry for the loss of your child. My heart is hurting for you.
> 
> I had often wondered if I really loved my wife and children. Would I give up my life to save theirs?


I hear you :frown2:



Duguesclin said:


> The night of my son's cancer diagnosis, as I laid down by his hospital bed, I got the answer. But I also felt powerless. I would take the bullet for him, but it was already too late. The bullet had reached him.
> 
> After a few days, I started to see how strong my son was and how weak I was. In those situations we all try to survive, and the adults are often (maybe always) the weakest ones. Our extended family sent a bunch of get well cards, all more depressing than the other. We never showed them to our son. Every one was scared.


We had relatives who wanted to start a prayer vigil around his bed. Naturally I shot that one down.



Duguesclin said:


> Good Guy, like you, your wife was scared to lose her child. Now she is scared to lose her marriage. It is not healthy.
> 
> If you want to save your marriage, you need to get her out of that mode because she cannot do it herself. Your resentment is not helping.


I agree - I see that now.



Duguesclin said:


> How are your kids coping with it? Are they also scared their parents will get divorced?


Yes they are. Actually my eldest is of the opinion it might be for the best.



Duguesclin said:


> Fear of death is OK. Fear of what your spouse is going to do is not.
> 
> It is not fair your wife is not able to help you. But that is how it is. You need to remove fear from the equation and right now you are the only one capable of doing it.
> 
> Love your wife, listen to her, do not judge her.


It's not that I am judging her, it's whether I can believe her or not. It's very frustrating. I need to be able to trust her. I wish I could believe she can't remember writing that stuff, or at least some of it - literally several entries per day in some cases. Or even admitting she is capable of writing that stuff. I would not judge her for it - i've told her that several times. Hell, I've been angry at her often enough in my head, and thought bad thoughts about her at times, who doesn't with a spouse? Also I think it's normal to be attracted to other people from time to time. At the end of the day she didn't physically cheat, as she would have written about that too. It was how she pretended to be one way with me, and was someone else completely in private.



Duguesclin said:


> The teacher was a good man not to take advantage of her.


I agree 100%. He is blameless in this situation, and acted appropriately at all times. He's a great guy, as I said he went above and beyond with our son.


----------



## Good Guy

EleGirl said:


> Does your wife know that you read her diary?
> 
> The problem with diaries is that sometimes they are about a person writing about a fantasy world... a place where she escaped... perhaps a place were your son was not part of it so she could avoid the pain that way.
> 
> And that's the problem with reading diaries, you don't know if what you read is just fantasy or not.


She knows - was not happy about it but I have no regrets. It was the letter I found first - it was literally just lying there when I opened her wardrobe with his name on the front. I would have stumbled across it by accident anyway. That's why I kept digging.

She says that too - that it was a way of escaping for her - and always was. There were almost no life events in there, and even those that were there, for example one of our children got assaulted one evening by a strung out drug addict, and the guy that was with her was lucky to escape alive, and she mentioned that briefly, but only in the context of if the teacher knew and if so why did he not contact her about it. I mean this is clearly not normal behavior - your child is attacked and your first concern is about some guy ?


----------



## Good Guy

I had a chat via text message with my wife. I asked her again about the diary. I'll put the conversation here. I do believe her now. She did admit she was attracted to him, so I am going to leave it there and get on with my life.

Thanks everyone for all the kind words and advice. The bolded text is her.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I love you so much and want to tell you I don't blame you for what happened. I believe you were using the diary as a form of escapism from the reality of our situation.

I was unable to give you the emotional support you needed and you were unable to see that I did actually care, because I had to protect myself by not getting emotional to allow me to function at all.

I don't know if I believe that you can't remember writing at least some of the stuff - it is so highly charged and deeply felt I find that very difficult to believe. I don't hold you responsible for writing it, it's just I have a very hard time believing it. At the very least, you must remember thinking some of those things at the time.

It doesn't bother me anymore if you thought those things. It did before, but now I see that you do still love me, or maybe love me again, I don't know which. I had thoughts too I wasn't "supposed" to have. The only thing that bothers me is that I don't know if you are honest about the whole diary thing.

*I love you so much too. I don't blame you at all for not being there. I was not there either. We both tried to cope and did our best. To me that is the main thing. Thank you for saying what you said

I never stopped loving you. Except that at some stage I didn't love anyone or anything, not even myself. That was a dark time.

I am being truthful about the diary. When I read it back, it was not at all familiar. I do how ever remember some of the sentiments. I remember feeling angry with you and I do have a vague recollection of making up stories in my head. Not very well defined, but the general feel of it. Lots of gaps in between. The main thing I remember is the pain and the despair. I do honestly not remember much of anything I wrote. The earlier stuff yes.*

_The earlier stuff was all about how sad she was about our son._

*I have no reason at all to not be honest. I love you so much. We are good together

I am happy to read what your wrote but also a bit worried.
*

Well let me ask you this then - are you saying you had no feelings of attraction at all for (the teacher) ?

*
I think at some stage I probably did. He represented all kind of things I wanted, but most of all it was the connection with (our son). But yes I do think he's a good looking man. I did think he was attractive but I never wanted anything from him.

I only ever think of him when you bring him up. He is never in my thoughts
*

ok I will have to settle for that answer.

*What ever it was, it died with me feeling better. That is the truth*

I believe you. Thank you for being honest.

*We have been to hell and back. We only have each other*


----------



## jld

GG, I just read your update when I previewed my post. I am happy to hear you feel you have gotten what you need from your wife. I hope this is the beginning of healing in your relationship.

I am still going to post what I took the time to write here. I hope it can be of help somehow.



Good Guy said:


> I hear you :frown2:


Thanks for saying that, GG. I was pretty surprised to read Dug's post last night. I have always seen him as rock solid. His post last night made him seem much more . . . _human_ than I am used to.



> We had relatives who wanted to start a prayer vigil around his bed. Naturally I shot that one down.


Oh my god. Aren't religious people the worst?! 

Like you needed all that fear on top of what you already had inside yourself.

GG, I cannot tell you how bad I feel for you and your wife. It brings back so many memories for Dug and me, memories we wish we did not have, memories we wish we could forget.

We were in India when our son was diagnosed. Thank God we did not have relatives swarming around. Two of my sisters wanted to come. We shot that down. The last thing I needed was anybody telling me what to do all the time. 

Our support group was Dug, our daughter (then 14), and me. 

Ds was 10 when he was diagnosed, and our other boys were 7, 4, and 10 mos. Dug was running a factory in India. He had just started it the year before. The company nearly closed it during the financial crisis a few months before. He had to fight to keep it open.

So we had a baby, a move for the family shortly thereafter to India, and then our son's cancer to deal with, along with the financial crisis and unexpectedly having our house in America remodeled (we had found mold in the kitchen before the kids and I had left to join Dug in India, where he had been for the previous year). Very challenging year. Still amazed we got through it as well as we did.



> I agree - I see that now.
> 
> Yes they are. Actually my eldest is of the opinion it might be for the best.


And your youngest?



> It's not that I am judging her, it's whether I can believe her or not. It's very frustrating. I need to be able to trust her. I wish I could believe she can't remember writing that stuff, or at least some of it - literally several entries per day in some cases. Or even admitting she is capable of writing that stuff. I would not judge her for it - i've told her that several times. Hell, I've been angry at her often enough in my head, and thought bad thoughts about her at times, who doesn't with a spouse? Also I think it's normal to be attracted to other people from time to time. At the end of the day she didn't physically cheat, as she would have written about that too. It was how she pretended to be one way with me, and was someone else completely in private.


Have you been in counseling together for this? For an extended period of time?

Look, I hear you on her lying. It seems you two had problems before the diagnosis of your son. His illness and death just further exposed the weaknesses in your marriage. And now, 6 years on, you have about had it.

I could not be with a liar, either. You are absolutely right that you cannot trust someone who cannot admit when they are lying. Pride or toxic shame or whatever, at some point they have to admit what is true or what basis do you have for trust? And how can you heal and move forward without trust?

I bet she feels so much shame for what she did. She probably feels shame for every time she is wrong about something. Feels if she admits it, she is worthless somehow. Maybe her family shamed her a lot when she was growing up?

And you are really hurt by what she did. And she feels that. I bet she feels shame for that, too.

I think the only way she could heal with you is if she felt you loved her unconditionally. Maybe then somehow she could get the courage up to face the truth, and admit it.

You said she prides herself on not lying. But like you said, we all lie in some ways. Not telling the whole truth is a form of lying.

She is fragile. If you do not love her, truly love her "as is," it might be for the best to divorce her. It could shake her up enough to finally face the truth. She would be alone, just her and the truth facing her. That might crack through the wall of protection she has built around herself.

Gosh, that would have to be hard for you, though, knowing you are leaving her so vulnerable like that. And it would affect your kids, too: If Dad would abandon Mom, would he abandon us, too? 



> I agree 100%. He is blameless in this situation, and acted appropriately at all times. He's a great guy, as I said he went above and beyond with our son.


Fine man. Probably should not have let her get so close to start with, though. She was very vulnerable, and it was probably plain to see.

I just feel so bad for both of you. I can see where you are coming from. And I can feel her pain. 

GG, I don't know if it helps to hear this, but I had very impure thoughts about my son's oncologist. Used to fantasize about him regularly the first two years after the diagnosis. Looked forward to seeing him during the visits. Just being in his presence was so calming, such a distraction from the emotional chaos I felt everywhere else.

I felt ashamed of it, let me tell you. I still do. 

Difference is, I told Dug about it. Whenever I feel attracted to another man, I tell Dug. He does not feel threatened by it. Our bond is strong. And I can't stand the thought of his not knowing everything I am thinking. It just feels much safer to me that my mind be an open book to my husband. 

But GG, that is because I feel safe with him. He has shown me time and again that with him is where I am safest. There is no shaming me when I tell him my darkest thoughts. There is love and forgiveness and, honestly, laughter. To him, I just torture myself with wanting to be morally perfect. He does not expect it of me.

If you cannot provide this safety to your wife, if your love for her essence is not stronger than your need for her to be truthful, then let her go. And explain why, to both her and your kids. If she cannot be honest and open, you be, to both her and the kids.

I am really, really sorry you have found yourself in this situation. I am sorry beyond words that you lost your son. And I am sorry that your wife may lose another piece of her family. What a painful situation all the way around.


----------



## jld

Good Guy said:


> She knows - was not happy about it but I have no regrets. It was the letter I found first - it was literally just lying there when I opened her wardrobe with his name on the front. I would have stumbled across it by accident anyway. That's why I kept digging.
> 
> She says that too - that it was a way of escaping for her - and always was. There were almost no life events in there, and even those that were there, for example one of our children got assaulted one evening by a strung out drug addict, and the guy that was with her was lucky to escape alive, and she mentioned that briefly, but only in the context of if the teacher knew and if so why did he not contact her about it. I mean this is clearly not normal behavior - your child is attacked and your first concern is about some guy ?


GG, it may be hard to hear, but I would like to say it anyway. You were not meeting her emotional needs at the time. And no wonder! You were trying to meet your own. 

But because you were not, and she could not meet them herself, she turned to him. He became her primary emotional attachment. And that fed her during a time when neither of you could do it.

It is over now. She has reattached to you. Build on that. Learn from it. Both of you.


----------



## notmyrealname4

Good Guy said:


> 6 years ago we lost a child to cancer,...To try to deal with it, *after a few weeks I said I was "over" our child's death* (of course that was a load of horse manure - but I thought it would help). * After that my wife cried less in front of me*. ...
> ... She talked about him a lot,* and how his wife was a horrible witch - even though she seemed like a nice enough person to me.* I suspected something was going on with her at least, but any mention of him or his wife my me would result in hysterical accusations of me being paranoid, jealous, etc. We had a joint birthday party and she invited him, but he didn't come. *His wife was rude with my wife, but perfectly fine with me.*
> 
> 
> 
> ... I got suspicious and had a snoop through her wardrobe. What I found shocked me. A* book* about all sorts of sex stories - not 50 shades, more like written hardcore porn.* 3 different vibrators*. I don't care and am not a prude, but this was completely* the opposite of the image she presented to me*. Her* diary, detailing* how she fantasised about this teacher, and how she hated having sex with me, and how any time she did it, or dreamed about sex, she thought about him....She sent him a few* texts,* even* inviting* him over one Christmas..... She *sent him a letter* thanking him for taking care of our son
> 
> 
> * She says she doesn't remember any of it. * * I also don't trust her in the least anymore.* I'm not sure what I'm looking for or what to say, but I'd like to hear people's thoughts on the matter. I'm really only with her for the convenience factor at the moment. Any love I had is gone. Mostly I'm just desperately sad at what happened to us, and how she couldn't be honest with me.



The subtext to all of this is the death of your child; I understand that for a loving parent, this is the grief above all others. So, I want to be respectful of that, and offer you belated condolences; a school age child was a little person in their own right, I am so sorry.

Grief affects us all differently. So, this is just *my* opinion. You are entitled to blow it off.

But I think being over a deceased child in a few weeks is inhumane. Now, I **know** that you admit you were talking out of you a.s.s. by saying such a thing. But it had two effects:

Saying that to yourself, and out loud to others, stopped you from finishing grieving yourself. You should _never_ have expected the crying and mourning to be over in anything less than several months. And you'll NEVER "get over" the death of this child. It is a part of who you are. It would be obscene to "get over" it or "move on".

I would say the ideal thing to happen is that you assimilate it, learn from it (you're doing that right now with the meltdown in your marriage), and carry the bittersweet memories of your child, his short time on earth, and premature death for the rest of your life.

You'll continue to function, there will be many more experiences, and happy ones at that; but that child and his existence and impact on your life, will, and should be with you forever.


The second thing that happened was that you alienated yourself from your wife and eldest child.

I'm thinking your wife was torpedoed emotionally by you saying such a thing. If you had recanted a couple of days later, then it would have been understood to be a verbal outburst.

But it doesn't seem that you did this at all.

I can't stress enough how horrible it must have sounded to hear those callous words come out of your mouth. And, again, I think you said them because *you* weren't anywhere near being healed or "over it" {or some such other b.s}.

I get it, you wanted it all to be over. The shock, the misery, the loss. "Go away and leave me alone", is what your soul is screaming.

But it doesn't work that way. You have to have your guts wrenched out, in order to heal properly.

Enough of that. I am sorry for giving any offense. I thought it was relevant, so I said it in hopes it might give insight.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You're here venting and looking for feedback. Here is mine with regards to your wife and her one-sided emotional affair with the teacher.

I think she's lying. I think she remembers writing those details down, and she's wriggling around trying to get out of admitting it.

Who could blame her. But still, think of this:

Does she remember the book of erotica?

Does she remember the 3 vibrators?

Does she remember _any_ of the texts she sent him?

Does she remember inviting him to Christmas dinner?

Does she remember driving over to his new school for a look-see?


I would guess she remembers all of those things. I know she's fudging and saying she can't remember thinking and writing those details in the diary.

At the most she can't recall the actual exact words and sentences. But she remembers the feelings and desires that inspired them; and I'll bet a lot of the words have stuck around in her head too.

There's a reason this guys wife didn't like her. There's a reason she thought his wife was a "witch". You met his wife. She seemed okay to you.

I have sympathy with your wife for the loss of her child, and for the shellshock she must have gone through after you told her it was time to dry your collective eyes and move on.

But, she remembers the diary.[In my opinion, of course]


Whether or not you stick around for the convenience is up to you.

I think if you stay you have to forgive. What your wife did was not overlookable in ordinary circumstances.

The illness and death of your child were extraordinary circumstances.


----------



## Good Guy

notmyrealname4 said:


> The subtext to all of this is the death of your child; I understand that for a loving parent, this is the grief above all others. So, I want to be respectful of that, and offer you belated condolences; a school age child was a little person in their own right, I am so sorry.
> 
> Grief affects us all differently. So, this is just *my* opinion. You are entitled to blow it off.
> 
> But I think being over a deceased child in a few weeks is inhumane. Now, I **know** that you admit you were talking out of you a.s.s. by saying such a thing. But it had two effects:
> 
> Saying that to yourself, and out loud to others, stopped you from finishing grieving yourself. You should _never_ have expected the crying and mourning to be over in anything less than several months. And you'll NEVER "get over" the death of this child. It is a part of who you are. It would be obscene to "get over" it or "move on".
> 
> I would say the ideal thing to happen is that you assimilate it, learn from it (you're doing that right now with the meltdown in your marriage), and carry the bittersweet memories of your child, his short time on earth, and premature death for the rest of your life.
> 
> You'll continue to function, there will be many more experiences, and happy ones at that; but that child and his existence and impact on your life, will, and should be with you forever.
> 
> 
> The second thing that happened was that you alienated yourself from your wife and eldest child.
> 
> I'm thinking your wife was torpedoed emotionally by you saying such a thing. If you had recanted a couple of days later, then it would have been understood to be a verbal outburst.
> 
> But it doesn't seem that you did this at all.
> 
> I can't stress enough how horrible it must have sounded to hear those callous words come out of your mouth. And, again, I think you said them because *you* weren't anywhere near being healed or "over it" {or some such other b.s}.
> 
> I get it, you wanted it all to be over. The shock, the misery, the loss. "Go away and leave me alone", is what your soul is screaming.
> 
> But it doesn't work that way. You have to have your guts wrenched out, in order to heal properly.
> 
> Enough of that. I am sorry for giving any offense. I thought it was relevant, so I said it in hopes it might give insight.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> You're here venting and looking for feedback. Here is mine with regards to your wife and her one-sided emotional affair with the teacher.
> 
> I think she's lying. I think she remembers writing those details down, and she's wriggling around trying to get out of admitting it.
> 
> Who could blame her. But still, think of this:
> 
> Does she remember the book of erotica?
> 
> Does she remember the 3 vibrators?
> 
> Does she remember _any_ of the texts she sent him?
> 
> Does she remember inviting him to Christmas dinner?
> 
> Does she remember driving over to his new school for a look-see?
> 
> 
> I would guess she remembers all of those things. I know she's fudging and saying she can't remember thinking and writing those details in the diary.
> 
> At the most she can't recall the actual exact words and sentences. But she remembers the feelings and desires that inspired them; and I'll bet a lot of the words have stuck around in her head too.
> 
> There's a reason this guys wife didn't like her. There's a reason she thought his wife was a "witch". You met his wife. She seemed okay to you.
> 
> I have sympathy with your wife for the loss of her child, and for the shellshock she must have gone through after you told her it was time to dry your collective eyes and move on.
> 
> But, she remembers the diary.[In my opinion, of course]
> 
> 
> Whether or not you stick around for the convenience is up to you.
> 
> I think if you stay you have to forgive. What your wife did was not overlookable in ordinary circumstances.
> 
> The illness and death of your child were extraordinary circumstances.


I agree with everything you said. Together with our conversation this morning, I feel I have closure - not as much as I might want ideally, but enough.

I was an ass - I see that now clearly. I was also angry at the world for a while. 

She said the book (which she told me about without knowing I had already seen it, but critically after the diary discovery) and the vibrators were an attempt to get her interested in sex again - with me supposedly. Maybe that was true, I have no way of knowing. Of course she remembers the other events you describe above - hell she drove over there with a mutual friend of ours, who later confirmed it with me after this all came out. She admits to remembering that. I was disappointed the friend didn't say anything beforehand, as that was strange behavior to say the least.


----------



## Good Guy

MEM2020 said:


> Good,
> You cannot coerce transparency. And as the primary breadwinner it is HIGHLY coercive to say: XYZ is putting the marriage in jeopardy.
> 
> Been there - done that - in my experience it was an epic fail.
> 
> Let's skip all the fluff and hit the punch line. G2 said: I HATE having sex with Goodguy. That is the real issue. And given her behavior - a seemingly true statement.
> 
> If it was me - I'd address THAT in a direct and low key manner.
> 
> GG: It's obvious you dislike having sex with me. What can I do to make it better for you?
> 
> Be forewarned - it might be physical stuff that you cannot change.


I've tried that already several times. She just said each time that she wasn't interested in sex at all. The last year or so, our sex life is better than it ever was, so not sure what changed. I guess I was more of a "man" the last while, before I went along with her trying to address her every need, but I don't do that anymore. For some strange reason, other women are flirting with me too, whereas before they didn't, or maybe I didn't notice them. I'm not sure.


----------



## Scannerguard

Hey,

I am totally stoked to hear you worked it out. I hope any of our contributions here helped and you continue your journey through life good together.

Go. Live a happy life like your child would have wanted. You honor his/her memory by doing so.


----------



## Good Guy

@Duguesclin, @jld

That's similar to our story, our son was diagnosed in the teeth of the great recession and I'm self employed, and my wife handles the accounts of the business. So you can see what a disaster that was outside of the obvious.

You have both helped me a lot. I won't point my wife at this thread as she would absolutely freak at me talking to "strangers" on the internet about our marriage. I know, that's probably an issue too but one thing at a time.


----------



## jld

Good Guy said:


> @Duguesclin, @jld
> 
> That's similar to our story, our son was diagnosed in the teeth of the great recession and I'm self employed, and my wife handles the accounts of the business. So you can see what a disaster that was outside of the obvious.
> 
> You have both helped me a lot. I won't point my wife at this thread as she would absolutely freak at me talking to "strangers" on the internet about our marriage. I know, that's probably an issue too but one thing at a time.


Wow, that was a lot to handle. You two should give yourselves a hand. The cancer alone is enough to put a lot of couples under.

GG, the hospital in India made us pay every other day for our son's treatment, or they would have kicked him out. It took two months for us to get the reimbursement going from the company here in America. Until then we were just scrambling, putting everything on the credit card, draining our savings. 

Then one day we were basically out of money, with a payment due the next day. I looked at Dug and said, "What are we going to do?" He said, "I don't know."

The next morning we awoke to an email from his company saying they were depositing $7k into our account. They thought we might be financially stressed. Two weeks later the insurance company sent the first reimbursement.

Just remembering all this makes me put my head in my hands. 

I totally get why your wife does not want to remember anything. Who wants to relive that nightmare?



Just do whatever you can, take whatever you can from any of the posts, whatever seems helpful.

I really do hope you two make it. I was reading an article last night on how the death of a child is something the parents will always share. A new partner will never fully understand what you and your wife have gone through together.


----------



## CantePe

I'd say you aren't out of the woods yet but on a clear path towards it.

I think both grief and couples counselling might be something to seriously consider.

For her, depression anon groups and child loss group would be extremely beneficial.

Even you might want to consider going to a child loss group. Being able to commiserate with other parents that have lost their child can be very cathartic and healing. To know that others just get it without having to explain yourself in detail is a comfort.

I haven't a clue what it's like to loose a child. I have a clue what it's like to nearly loose a child (three times over, two preemies and a very dangerous 4th birth that nearly took both our lives) but no where comparable to what you and your wife have felt, gone through or deal with even now.

I can guess, but that would be an injustice that would devalue both of you. I can only say that if either of you needed an ear, a shoulder (as virtual as it may be) I am at your disposal for both of you.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


----------

