# Is having a girls/boys night out acceptable in marriage?



## wif3y

Hi everyone I am a newbie here! Well I am here for advice. First of all a little info about my marriage. Hubby and I married in June 18, 2011 we are a young couple, I am 22 and he is 26. Ok so enough of background info and straight to the problem. Well right now I am very upset my girlfriends decide to have a girls night out and I knowing how my husband is (he doesn't like to let me go out unless he goes) I told the girls I would go and that I would bring my husband so girls were totally fine with it. I text husband if we can go and he reply's yes that he gets off work at 9:30pm. I get home and was able to catch him before he leaves to work so I tell him the plan is for me to go with my friend ****** at 8:00pm to the club and that he would meet us there when he is off work. Well same as usual he throws a fit saying why don't I wait for him to go? I told him we are trying to get free coverage and that way I have at least an hour and a half of girl time. He doesn't like my responds he states that we are married and married couples don't do that and of course by this time I just give up I told him fine that I don't want to go, basically here I am venting and trying to get advice makes me wonder maybe I am wrong now that I am married I have to live this sad life I don't want to say I am entirely unhappy but, I do feel like I am kept in a cage, there is so much to live and be happy and what better way to share this than the one person you love. I don't know I guess my question to you is what advice do you give me in this situation? And is a girls/boys night out acceptable in marriage? By the way I love dancing it's a hobby and I feel like ever since I married him I don't dance! Any help would be greatly appreciated!


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## clipclop2

You should wait for him.


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## EleGirl

So you want to go out to bars and clubs to dance with men besides your husband. Is that right?

Some people are ok with their spouse doing that, some are not. As a wife you have to respect your husband's view on this. That's marriage.

A lot of affairs happen on girls/boys nights out when they include drinking and being around people of the opposite sex in a pick up place.

Why doesn't your husband dance with your when you go out with him?

Are there other types of girls nights/days out that you want to do but he objects to? Like do you go out with your girl friends and/or sister(s) to lunch? Do you go out shopping with female friends/relatives? Is he ok with you doing that kind of thing? 


.


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## Married but Happy

We'd be okay meeting up at the club. And while you should respect his views, he should respect yours as well. You invited him, so he's far from excluded. Having a little time with your friends first seems normal and harmless.

As for dancing - which is so important to you - he needs to step up and dance (or learn), especially if he doesn't want you dancing with someone else.


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## wif3y

ELEGIRL: No no no no lol not dancing with guys I am married and that doesn't fly in my marriage. Only dancing with my 2 girlfriends and yea he tends to always over react when I tell him I want to hang out with a girlfriend like if he doesn't want me to hang out with anybody. I understand with guys which is totally fine but, a girl?!?! And he will dance he doesn't know how to but, he will do it and I am thinking that way I am not being seen by myself.

MARRIED BUT HAPPY: Yes that's what I think I told him well that's fine that if he didn't want me to be at the club by myself that it was fine I would wait for him at my girlfriends house so me and her can chit chat and then we would all go to the club, and well that didn't change a thing he was still going on about we are married why do I need to spend time with my friend.


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## staarz21

There's plenty of ways to get girl time in that don't involve going to the club. Mani - pedi, shopping, spa, lunch, dinners, BBQs, etc. Those are neutral territories.

Your H asked that you wait for him. You're married now. You have to take into consideration his feelings on this. You can compromise girl time in some other way that maybe doesn't bother him so much.

Spend some time and talk to him. Ask him what he would feel comfortable with as far as you spending time with just the girls.


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## wif3y

staarz21 said:


> There's plenty of ways to get girl time in that don't involve going to the club. Mani - pedi, shopping, spa, lunch, dinners, BBQs, etc. Those are neutral territories.
> 
> Your H asked that you wait for him. You're married now. You have to take into consideration his feelings on this. You can compromise girl time in some other way that maybe doesn't bother him so much.
> 
> Spend some time and talk to him. Ask him what he would feel comfortable with as far as you spending time with just the girls.


So dancing the thing that I enjoy doing is out of my life for good now?


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## EleGirl

wif3y said:


> ELEGIRL: No no no no lol not dancing with guys I am married and that doesn't fly in my marriage. Only dancing with my 2 girlfriends and yea he tends to always over react when I tell him I want to hang out with a girlfriend like if he doesn't want me to hang out with anybody. I understand with guys which is totally fine but, a girl?!?! And he will dance he doesn't know how to but, he will do it and I am thinking that way I am not being seen by myself.
> 
> MARRIED BUT HAPPY: Yes that's what I think I told him well that's fine that if he didn't want me to be at the club by myself that it was fine I would wait for him at my girlfriends house so me and her can chit chat and then we would all go to the club, and well that didn't change a thing he was still going on about we are married why do I need to spend time with my friend.


If you are going out early with your friends, you only dance with the girls and he’s joining you, I don’t see that problem. But he’s your husband and you have to live with him.

Now on the rest of the above response? What he’s doing to controlling. He’s wrong to not “allow” you to do things with friends like lunch, shopping, etc.

There is no reason why you should not be able to go to a friend’s house to socialize until he is ready to go out.

Do you have a job outside the home?


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## EleGirl

wif3y said:


> So dancing the thing that I enjoy doing is out of my life for good now?


If you love to dance, it should not be out of your life.

As your husband he should make learning to dance a priority so that he can dance with you. I think you need to tell him that he needs to learn to dance for you. It's a healthy way for the two of you to spend time.


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## EleGirl

staarz21 said:


> There's plenty of ways to get girl time in that don't involve going to the club. Mani - pedi, shopping, spa, lunch, dinners, BBQs, etc. Those are neutral territories.
> 
> Your H asked that you wait for him. You're married now. You have to take into consideration his feelings on this. You can compromise girl time in some other way that maybe doesn't bother him so much.
> 
> Spend some time and talk to him. Ask him what he would feel comfortable with as far as you spending time with just the girls.


I believe that wif3y said that he's not ok for her to spend any time with her friends. He thinks she does not need friends now that they are married. This is the "bigger" problem.


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## wif3y

EleGirl said:


> If you are going out early with your friends, you only dance with the girls and he’s joining you, I don’t see that problem. But he’s your husband and you have to live with him.
> 
> Now on the rest of the above response? What he’s doing to controlling. He’s wrong to not “allow” you to do things with friends like lunch, shopping, etc.
> 
> There is no reason why you should not be able to go to a friend’s house to socialize until he is ready to go out.
> 
> Do you have a job outside the home?


Yes I have a full time job 40hrs a week and a full time mommy (son is 8 years old)


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## EleGirl

wif3y said:


> Yes I have a full time job 40hrs a week and a full time mommy (son is 8 years old)


Does your husband give you a hard time about the people you work with?


Does your husband have any friends of his own?


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## Married but Happy

wif3y, it sounds like you proposed a completely reasonable compromise, and he is unreasonable about you even having same-sex friends. To me, that's controlling and unacceptable. He has boundary issues, and you need to set some yourself, even if he's not happy about it. You've respected his concerns, and I think he needs to respect yours and your legitimate friendships.


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## wif3y

ELEGIRL: Yes that is exactly the problem he has told me that he doesn't understand why I need to have friends and the truth I feel like he feels like that because he doesn't have that much friends and doesn't really like to socialize he is more of a calmer guy but, he can be talkative. So he doesn't go out. I've told him too many times that he works too much and that he should go out. I just feel like he would be less stressed if he takes time for himself as would I but, that never happens.


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## wif3y

ELEGIRL: My friends are my coworkers and one just recently left its just 2 girls. Yea I know that's how lame my social life is, that I only have friends from work.

MARRIED BUT HAPPY: I thank you for you understanding it does make me feel like I am not the only one that thinks like this in marriages and I know its going to be a stupid question but I am asking it anyway. Boundaries? like how?


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## staarz21

wif3y said:


> So dancing the thing that I enjoy doing is out of my life for good now?


No. I didn't say that.

For just plain ole girl time I suggested those other things. You can still dance at the club when your H tags along. 

I didn't see that your H has an issue with you going out with girls any other time as well though. I think we posted at the same time. That definitely is an issue that he needs to work on. He can't keep you all to himself 24/7. So long as you are respecting your marriage, you should be able to go out with friends every now and then. He needs to compromise on this.

Does he have any guy friends that he likes to hang out with?


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## staarz21

EleGirl said:


> I believe that wif3y said that he's not ok for her to spend any time with her friends. He thinks she does not need friends now that they are married. This is the "bigger" problem.


:iagree:

Yes, I posted 3 minutes after her. I had not seen this by the time I hit submit. That definitely is the bigger issue.


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## Openminded

wif3y said:


> So dancing the thing that I enjoy doing is out of my life for good now?


Dance with him or don't dance. Girls dancing with girls? Guess how men hanging around clubs view that (hint: as a turn-on). Teach your husband to be a good dancer. Or take dancing classes together.


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## EleGirl

You can either give into his controlling demands or you can set boundaries.

There is no reason at all why you cannot go out with female friends.

I can understand him not wanting you to go clubbing with anyone with him not there. But to go a bit head of him or for you to go and spend time at your friend's house until he shows up is controlling.

If I were you I'd tell him that you will go to your friend's house and he can meet you there. I would also tell him that you need friends and from now on you will do things like lunch, shopping, etc on a regular basis.... but doing so to leave time for you to spend with him each week as well.

I would also tell him to go find a hobby that included other men. He can look in Find your people - Meetup to see what's going on in your area. Or he can start building his friendships by starting to do things with the guys he knows.

If he argues against this, I would insist that the two of you need to go to marriage counseling because this isolation and his attempts to control you are going to hurt your marriage.

There is are some books that I think will help you out here "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters"


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## EleGirl

Is your family around? If so how does he handle you spending time with your family?


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## EleGirl

Openminded said:


> Dance with him or don't dance. Girls dancing with girls?* Guess how men hanging around clubs view that (hint: as a turn-on). *Teach your husband to be a good dancer. Or take dancing classes together.


Oh good grief, if men want to look at it that way it's not her problem. Maybe she should wear a burka? The world is not about that nonsense that goes on in the minds of random men.


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## The Middleman

wif3y said:


> . I don't know I guess my question to you is what advice do you give me in this situation? And is a girls/boys night out acceptable in marriage? By the way I love dancing it's a hobby and I feel like ever since I married him I don't dance! Any help would be greatly appreciated!


In my marriage there are no BNOs or GNOs other than diners in restaurants and home at a reasonable hour (like 8 or 9). Those are the rules. So if you want my opinion, you don't go without him.

Now to your situation: Your husband has been clear about what his martial boundaries are and you seem to have been in agreement with them as you have been living by them all during your marriage. So I have to ask you, why are you testing the boundaries? Do you feel that you can't live with the boundaries any more? Is it that you resent your husband telling you he doesn't want you out without him? Is it you don't want him around when you go out with the girls? Why the change.


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## EleGirl

The Middleman said:


> In my marriage there are no BNOs or GNOs other than diners in restaurants and home at a reasonable hour (like 8 or 9). Those are the rules. So if you want my opinion, you don't go without him.
> 
> Now to your situation: Your husband has been clear about what his martial boundaries are and you seem to have been in agreement with them as you have been living by them all during your marriage. So I have to ask you, why are you testing the boundaries? Do you feel that you can't live with the boundaries any more? Is it that you resent your husband telling you he doesn't want you out without him? Is it you don't want him around when you go out with the girls? Why the change.


To bring you up to speed on the thread.

She offered to go hang out at her friend's house until he got off work. Then they could all to out together. He does not want her to do this.

He does not want her to even go out and have lunch and go shopping with a friend. Basically he wants her with him 24/7 when she's not at work.


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## The Middleman

wif3y said:


> So dancing the thing that I enjoy doing is out of my life for good now?



Not necessarily, you can dance with your GFs with him around. But you are married and it's not all about you any more.


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## wif3y

Elegirl: Awesome books thank you I will be reading these soon. Yes he does need to help with finding guy friends thanks for the link. I have been trying to go to marriage counseling they are so expensive and we always say we are going to go and we never end up going. 

Open Minded: Umm I guess I never thought of that but, I cant let my husband not do something because someone else's thoughts.

Starz21: No he doesn't have friends and yea its an issue.


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## EleGirl

wif3y said:


> Elegirl: Awesome books thank you I will be reading these soon. Yes he does need to help with finding guy friends thanks for the link. I have been trying to go to marriage counseling they are so expensive and we always say we are going to go and we never end up going.
> 
> Open Minded: Umm I guess I never thought of that but, I cant let my husband not do something because someone else's thoughts.
> 
> Starz21: No he doesn't have friends and yea its an issue.


By the way, that link is good for you too. You might find things you enjoy doing on it too. And maybe you can find things that both of you enjoy doing.. go places with him and help him open up his social life.

Does he play cards? or does he like sports? Maybe you could help him plan a guy's card game night/afternoon or a sports get-together where his friends can watch games with him at your place.

Then you invite your friends and the guys' wives out for a girls lunch or dinner out. 

It's a safe way to show him that other couples do not smother each other like he wants to. 
Or


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## The Middleman

EleGirl said:


> To bring you up to speed on the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> She offered to go hang out at her friend's house until he got off work. Then they could all to out together. He does not want her to do this.
> 
> 
> 
> He does not want her to even go out and have lunch and go shopping with a friend. Basically he wants her with him 24/7 when she's not at work.



Maybe I'm of a different generation but there is little socializing in our marriage without each other, only what I mentioned in my posting and for the most part we've had (have) a good 30 year run. I'll admit that the boundaries are mine, but my wife seems to agree. We had one testing of the boundaries and it was an ugly five days (but that's another story) but things have been good ever since.

Sorry for the thread jack but this whole "controlling" thing can be over blown ... you are only hearing one side of the story.


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## wif3y

Elegirl: Yes my family is around and he is ok with me hanging out with family. And exactly! I cant control other peoples thoughts.

MIddle man: I feel like this is not the way we were before getting married and actually we both have changed we love each other but, seems lke we don't do much anymore its the same routine over and over and I have talked to him about it and he has agreed over the same routine its getting boring so we agreed on going out together as a family more which we have but, usually its just going to eat and the movies. I guess we just need to change it up a bit and spice things up.


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## The Middleman

wif3y said:


> Elegirl: Yes my family is around and he is ok with me hanging out with family. And exactly! I cant control other peoples thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> MIddle man: I feel like this is not the way we were before getting married and actually we both have changed we love each other but, seems lke we don't do much anymore its the same routine over and over and I have talked to him about it and he has agreed over the same routine its getting boring so we agreed on going out together as a family more which we have but, usually its just going to eat and the movies. I guess we just need to change it up a bit and spice things up.



I agree that you have to do more as a couple and a family and liven things up ... that is very important. In our case, both my wife and I have large extended families so just family activities have given us variety and little free time over the years. I hope that's a road you can travel.

One thing I am certain of is that seeking fun separately is a huge mistake. It opens doors that shouldn't be opened. Put the effort into making your nights out with your husband interesting instead of seeking the GNOs as an alternative.

Also, be very carefully when you use he word controlling when it refers to your husband. Him wanting to be with you when you go out socially is how he is protecting his family and is an expression of his values, not him hurting you. Also, don't easily accept others calling him that. Is he a good husband? Does he treat you with respect? Does he bring home his pay check and support his family? Understand when you are married it's about 2 people, not one.


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## lovelost2soon

He sounds like he has some trust issues he needs to deal with. There should be no reason you can't hang with your friends for a while before he gets out of work....you invited him to come, he accepted so he can meet you there. I also think that you should be going out with your friends without him too. He doesn't need to tag along every time you go out with your girlfriends either.


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## EleGirl

The Middleman said:


> Maybe I'm of a different generation but there is little socializing in our marriage without each other, only what I mentioned in my posting and for the most part we've had (have) a good 30 year run. I'll admit that the boundaries are mine, but my wife seems to agree. We had one testing of the boundaries and it was an ugly five days (but that's another story) but things have been good ever since.


It’s not a younger generation thing. I don’t know how old you are. I’m 65. With my family and friends socializing is an important part of our lives. It’s always been normal for us to have friends that we do things with outside of our marriages. I know a lot of people in all generations who are have strong social lives outside of their marriage. 

If you and your wife have set your own rules about you and she not even being able to have lunch with friends, that’s your right and your business. But it does not work for most people.


The Middleman said:


> Sorry for the thread jack but this whole "controlling" thing can be over blown ... you are only hearing one side of the story.


He can tell her he is not ok with her doing any socializing at all, ever without him. Then she can make up her own mind. 

But it’s controlling for him to tell her that she cannot do things that she wants to do. Things like have lunch with a friend. That is controlling.


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## EleGirl

wif3y said:


> Elegirl: Yes my family is around and he is ok with me hanging out with family. And exactly! I cant control other peoples thoughts.
> 
> MIddle man: I feel like this is not the way we were before getting married and actually we both have changed we love each other but, seems lke we don't do much anymore its the same routine over and over and I have talked to him about it and he has agreed over the same routine its getting boring so we agreed on going out together as a family more which we have but, usually its just going to eat and the movies. I guess we just need to change it up a bit and spice things up.


Do go look at Find your people - Meetup and find fun things to do in your area.

Invite friends over to your house to socialize too.

How much time a week do you and your husband spend doing things together, just the two of you?


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## EleGirl

The Middleman said:


> I agree that you have to do more as a couple and a family and liven things up ... that is very important. In our case, both my wife and I have large extended families so just family activities have given us variety and little free time over the years. I hope that's a road you can travel.
> 
> One thing I am certain of is that seeking fun separately is a huge mistake. It opens doors that shouldn't be opened. Put the effort into making your nights out with your husband interesting instead of seeking the GNOs as an alternative.
> 
> Also, be very carefully when you use he word controlling when it refers to your husband. Him wanting to be with you when you go out socially is how he is protecting his family and is an expression of his values, not him hurting you. Also, don't easily accept others calling him that. Is he a good husband? Does he treat you with respect? Does he bring home his pay check and support his family? Understand when you are married it's about 2 people, not one.


Are you saying that it's wrong for a married woman to go out and have lunch with a female friend once every few weeks?


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## richie33

For my marriage it's ok. I am still friends with the guys I went to kndergarden with. Once and awhile we all get together and shoot the sh*t and drink. It's all guys, about 10 to 15 of us. Not at a club but at a bar. My wife has no problem with this. 
She works hard and if she wants to go out with her co workers or sisters for a drink I am not stopping her.


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## Prodigal

Who looks after your 8-year-old when you go out? From my calculations, you were 14 when you had a baby. I'm assuming this is your biological son; please correct me if I'm wrong.

Do you and your husband have planned activities that include your son?


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## tacoma

Yes, a GNO is acceptable in marriage.

However, making a habit of them all the time is not.

Engaging in activities you wouldn't do in front of your husband is not.

GNO's with toxic friends are not.

If this isn't a habit for you and you have no history of infidelity then your husband is being controlling


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## The Middleman

EleGirl said:


> Are you saying that it's wrong for a married woman to go out and have lunch with a female friend once every few weeks?


Never said that. I said this:



The Middleman said:


> In my marriage there are no BNOs or GNOs *other than diners in restaurants and home at a reasonable hour (like 8 or 9)*. Those are the rules. So if you want my opinion, you don't go without him.


When I said Don't go without him, I meant don't go to the club. Nothing wrong with her going to lunch with friends, as long as they aren't toxic friends.

For me out to bars and clubs without a spouse, even for a little while is a deal breaker. Now when I read her original posting, I saw this:



wif3y said:


> *so I tell him the plan is for me to go with my friend ****** at 8:00pm to the club and that he would meet us there when he is off work. *Well same as usual he throws a fit saying why don't I wait for him to go? I told him we are trying to get free coverage and that way I have at least an hour and a half of girl time. He doesn't like my responds he states that we are married and married couples don't do that...


I read that as she wants to be at the club for 1 1/2 hours with out him and he objects. I know I would object too, this is not having lunch or dinner with the girls ...unless I read this wrong.


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## EleGirl

The Middleman said:


> I read that as she wants to be at the club for 1 1/2 hours with out him and he objects. I know I would object too, this is not having lunch or dinner with the girls ...unless I read this wrong.


She agreed to not go out to the club with out him.

She then wanted to go visit with her girlfriend at the girlfriend's house until her husband got off work. Her husband will not allow her to visit her friend.

When asked she said that he does not allow her to do things like go to lunch or go shopping with female friends.

This is where the talk about control came in. She should be able to go to lunch with a friend, or visit a friend in the friend's home when he's at work.


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## The Middleman

Let's agree to disagree on this. 

I see someone whose husband doesn't want her at a club without him, even for an hour and a half and it is pissing her off. If I were her husband I would do the same thing, I don't care how pissed off she got. Now she can either stay with him or leave him, it's her call. To be honest with you, I think she is bored in her marriage and with being a mother, she resents her husband's boundaries and she wants excitement outside her marriage. This has nothing to do with "lunch with the girls" and has everything to do with going clubbing with her friends. No offense to the OP, but she is an affair waiting to happen. She should put this effort and angst into repairing what may be wrong within the marriage instead of looking for affirmation that she should be able to go out dancing and that her husband is controlling her life.


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## norajane

wif3y said:


> ELEGIRL: Yes that is exactly the problem he has told me that* he doesn't understand why I need to have friends and the truth I feel like he feels like that because he doesn't have that much friends *and doesn't really like to socialize he is more of a calmer guy but, he can be talkative. So he doesn't go out. I've told him too many times that he works too much and that he should go out. I just feel like he would be less stressed if he takes time for himself as would I but, that never happens.


If he's always been a loner without friends, and that has been and continues to be his choice, then he doesn't have a frame of reference for why other people need friends. He gets all the social interaction he needs with you. He doesn't need more.

You, however, are entirely different. He needs to understand that about you and accept it. 

He's probably wondering why he isn't he enough for you. I have no idea why he thinks he can dictate to you that you shouldn't have friends, but maybe he believes he should be enough for you socially like you are enough for him. Don't let him isolate you from friends. That's never a good place to be. When he crosses the line into controlling, tell him you will have to agree to disagree because you intend to maintain your friendships.

Does he have brothers or sisters? Is he close with them? Is he close with anyone? How did you meet? It seems this would have come up while you were dating.


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## EleGirl

wif3y,

Is your husband the bio dad of your son? 

I'm just asking because you are very young to have an 8 year old kid. I'm wondering if you are starting to feel trapped by all the responsibilities of having a child so young and then getting married so young.

Is your friend from work single? Do your husband not like her?


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## P51Geo1980

wif3y said:


> Hi everyone I am a newbie here! Well I am here for advice. First of all a little info about my marriage. Hubby and I married in June 18, 2011 we are a young couple, I am 22 and he is 26. Ok so enough of background info and straight to the problem. Well right now I am very upset my girlfriends decide to have a girls night out and I knowing how my husband is (he doesn't like to let me go out unless he goes) I told the girls I would go and that I would bring my husband so girls were totally fine with it. I text husband if we can go and he reply's yes that he gets off work at 9:30pm. I get home and was able to catch him before he leaves to work so I tell him the plan is for me to go with my friend ****** at 8:00pm to the club and that he would meet us there when he is off work. Well same as usual he throws a fit saying why don't I wait for him to go? I told him we are trying to get free coverage and that way I have at least an hour and a half of girl time. He doesn't like my responds he states that we are married and married couples don't do that and of course by this time I just give up I told him fine that I don't want to go, basically here I am venting and trying to get advice makes me wonder maybe I am wrong now that I am married I have to live this sad life I don't want to say I am entirely unhappy but, I do feel like I am kept in a cage, there is so much to live and be happy and what better way to share this than the one person you love. I don't know I guess my question to you is what advice do you give me in this situation? And is a girls/boys night out acceptable in marriage? By the way I love dancing it's a hobby and I feel like ever since I married him I don't dance! Any help would be greatly appreciated!


Each couple needs to decide what is acceptable on their own. When I was with STBXW I went out with my friends about once a month. We'd usually go to a local bar and she came the first time, but decided she didn't want to be around a bunch of nursing students "talking shop." She never barred me from going and I was always home by 11 or 1130. The group was a mix of males and females, some married some single. She didn't have any friends, still doesn't, but if she did it wouldn't have bothered me if she went out once or twice a month. Sometimes you just need to get away from your spouse and hang out with your friends. 


My current gf and I have a lot of mutual friends so we all usually end up out together.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mostlycontent

EleGirl said:


> wif3y,
> 
> Is your husband the bio dad of your son?
> 
> I'm just asking because you are very young to have an 8 year old kid. I'm wondering if you are starting to feel trapped by all the responsibilities of having a child so young and then getting married so young.
> 
> Is your friend from work single? Do your husband not like her?


I was wondering the same thing. Having a child at 14, if it's her biological son, is ridiculously young. Now if it's his son then that's another matter.

Either way, it appears as though you've had to grow up quicker than perhaps you were ready for.


----------



## BuddyL33

Sounds to me like your husband wants to control you because he doesn't trust you and wants to keep tabs on you at all times. 

That's no way to exist in a marriage.


----------



## Mostlycontent

The Middleman said:


> Let's agree to disagree on this.
> 
> I see someone who's husband doesn't want her at a club without him, even for an hour and a half and it is pissing her off. If I were her husband I would do the same thing, I don't care how pissed off she got. Now she can either stay with him or leave him, it's her call. To be honest with you, I think she is board in her marriage and with being a mother, she resents her husband's boundaries and she wants excitement outside her marriage. This has nothing to do with "lunch with the girls" and has everything to do with going clubbing with her friends. No offence to the OP, but she is an affair waiting to happen. She should put this effort and angst into repairing what may be wrong within the marriage instead of looking for affirmation that she should be able to go out dancing and that her husband is controlling her life.



I'm with you 100% on this one, Middle. As the husband, he likely feels like he's a 3rd wheel and not the priority and I can't say I blame him. If my W didn't want to bother herself with waiting for me to get home from work, I might feel similarly to her H.

He is supposed to be the priority unless I have just totally misunderstood what marriage is all about all these years.


----------



## Mostlycontent

BuddyL33 said:


> Sounds to me like your husband wants to control you because he doesn't trust you and wants to keep tabs on you at all times.
> 
> That's no way to exist in a marriage.


Remember that we're only getting one side of the story and who knows how accurate that side is. I try not to pile on someone whose side hasn't even been represented here.


----------



## frusdil

Read the entire thread...he doesn't understand why she has to have friends!!! He doesn't even like her going to lunch with her girlfriends!

I'm sorry but that' ridiculous. It's one thing to not want her going clubbing without him, it's a whole other thing to not want her to have any friends at all. That IS controlling.


----------



## Adelais

Although I agree with you, Middleman, for the most part, I have to admit that I find it hard to take you seriously due to your misuse of homonyms, and poor spelling.

board = bored ?

who's = whose ?

diners = dinners ?

offence = offense ? (Offence is British, Offense is American English)

My 12 year old knows that poor spelling can cause a person to not seem intelligent, and can cause embarrassment. Use your spellchecker, Middleman. I really like what you say, but I just can't get past the spelling.


----------



## The Middleman

IMFarAboveRubies said:


> Although I agree with you, Middleman, for the most part, I have to admit that I find it hard to take you seriously due to your misuse of homonyms, and poor spelling.
> 
> board = bored ?
> 
> who's = whose ?
> 
> diners = dinners ?
> 
> offence = offense ? (Offence is British, Offense is American English)
> 
> My 12 year old knows that poor spelling can cause a person to not seem intelligent, and can cause embarrassment. Use your spellchecker, Middleman. I really like what you say, but I just can't get past the spelling.


Pardon me ... But the point is still the point.


----------



## EleGirl

Mostlycontent said:


> I'm with you 100% on this one, Middle. As the husband, he likely feels like he's a 3rd wheel and not the priority and I can't say I blame him. If my W didn't want to bother herself with waiting for me to get home from work, I might feel similarly to her H.
> 
> He is supposed to be the priority unless I have just totally misunderstood what marriage is all about all these years.


Really? 

One night out of their marriage, he's getting home at 9 something PM. She wants to go visit with your friend. And for that he should feel like a 3rd wheel in the marriage?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

EleGirl said:


> You can either give into his controlling demands or you can set boundaries.
> 
> There is no reason at all why you cannot go out with female friends.
> 
> I can understand him not wanting you to go clubbing with anyone with him not there. But to go a bit head of him or for you to go and spend time at your friend's house until he shows up is controlling.
> 
> If I were you I'd tell him that you will go to your friend's house and he can meet you there. I would also tell him that you need friends and from now on you will do things like lunch, shopping, etc on a regular basis.... but doing so to leave time for you to spend with him each week as well.
> 
> I would also tell him to go find a hobby that included other men. He can look in Find your people - Meetup to see what's going on in your area. Or he can start building his friendships by starting to do things with the guys he knows.
> 
> If he argues against this, I would insist that the two of you need to go to marriage counseling because this isolation and his attempts to control you are going to hurt your marriage.
> 
> There is are some books that I think will help you out here "His Needs, Her Needs" and "Love Busters"


:iagree: 

THIS post above cannot be stressed enough as your plan of action.

BTW if it is his child, then give him the choice to socialize or split, because he is too isolated in his thinking. He needs friends, and a social circle to stay mentally sound.

You may suffer in your marriage, so be careful not to be trapped.

Besides that, GNO is famous for becoming a cause of cheating, in mye eyes, ESPECIALLY with such a guy at home.


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## jaquen

Yes we have girls/boys nights out. We're grown ups. My wife is not my mother, and I sure am not her father. I don't police her activities with her friends and vice versa. We trust each other, while also wanting each other to enjoy themselves with their respective friends. And no my wife doesn't hang out with me and my boys and I don't chill with she and her girls. That defeats the purpose of "same sex night out".

Your mileage, in your marriage, might vary. But I suggest you two come to some kind of compromise because at 22 and 26, with you already feeling like a caged bird, you're very vulnerable to divorce. And unfortunately an affair.


----------



## wif3y

lovelost2soon said:


> He sounds like he has some trust issues he needs to deal with. There should be no reason you can't hang with your friends for a while before he gets out of work....you invited him to come, he accepted so he can meet you there. I also think that you should be going out with your friends without him too. He doesn't need to tag along every time you go out with your girlfriends either.


I feel the same way but, he insists that it isn't about trust he saids that since we are married it's like the law that we cant go out without each other. I told him he should have time too for himself with guy friends and that I don't see a problem with that, you know what his response was? That it seems like I want a swinger marriage! I just feel so frustrated what the heck?!?! That is nothing close to what I want I just want us to be able to hang out with friends without the other hovering over. I would like to have a girls night where I can chit chat with girls and vent about my daily problems or even about my marriage and have some safe fun. I don't know this is just taking a toll on me its driving me nuts and more when he makes the stupid comment that if I want to live the single life then I should just be single instead. Ugh! I am so frustrated mostly because I just had once again this conversation with him and I am really trying to have him understand me. He is sooo stubborn!


----------



## wif3y

jaquen said:


> Yes we have girls/boys nights out. We're grown ups. My wife is not my mother, and I sure am not her father. I don't police her activities with her friends and vice versa. We trust each other, while also wanting each other to enjoy themselves with their respective friends. And no my wife doesn't hang out with me and my boys and I don't chill with she and her girls. That defeats the purpose of "same sex night out".
> 
> Your mileage, in your marriage, might vary. But I suggest you two come to some kind of compromise because at 22 and 26, with you already feeling like a caged bird, you're very vulnerable to divorce. And unfortunately an affair.


I keep telling him that! I feel like he acts more like a father than a husband. I don't want to be his daughter, I want him to respect me as his wife. Your right I have told him that I am scared we would be like one of those cases where woman cheats on husband or divorce! I feel so trapped and I don't know how to have him see how this is hurting me I just want to be happy with him in my life but, I am just getting tired! Im tired of crying feeling like there is no way out. Honestly I am crying now just feel like I am suffocating.


----------



## wif3y

The Middleman said:


> Pardon me ... But the point is still the point.


I am not even worried about spelling why does that matter. Like middle man saids the point is the point. Spelling/Grammar is not going to help with my marriage. Thank you middle man for your advice and seeing the bigger picture in this.


----------



## wif3y

Mostlycontent said:


> Remember that we're only getting one side of the story and who knows how accurate that side is. I try not to pile on someone whose side hasn't even been represented here.


I'm here to get advice to my situation, there's no point in lying. If your coming in here with that mentality then how are we going to help one another in this site? Are we going to doubt every single person on here? Come on..


----------



## wif3y

BuddyL33 said:


> Sounds to me like your husband wants to control you because he doesn't trust you and wants to keep tabs on you at all times.
> 
> That's no way to exist in a marriage.


I agree. I ask him why? What have I done to not be trusted and like always he never has a reason.


----------



## EleGirl

He says that it’s not about trust. Then he is accusing you of wanting a swinger marriage because you want to go out with friends. He says that it sounds like you want to live a single’s life. He does not trust you, clearly.

Are these friends you go out with single women?


wif3y said:


> I keep telling him that! I feel like he acts more like a father than a husband. I don't want to be his daughter, I want him to respect me as his wife. *Your right I have told him that I am scared we would be like one of those cases where woman cheats on husband or divorce! *I feel so trapped and I don't know how to have him see how this is hurting me I just want to be happy with him in my life but, I am just getting tired! Im tired of crying feeling like there is no way out. Honestly I am crying now just feel like I am suffocating.


If you want your husband to trust you, why on earth would you tell him this about you are scared that you will cheat on him and divorce him? If you are saying things like that, it will only tear down trust.

You say that, then you want to go to a place with your friend that is basically a pick-up place. Not smart.

How about forgetting going out partying with girlfriends at night to clubs with for a while. Do that only with your husband with you. You can tell him that you want him to take dance lessons so that you can dance with him. This is something that the two of you can do together. You can even join a dance club, dance completions. Make dance something that you both do.

Make your point with you that you want to do safe things, like lunch or dinner or shopping with some female friends?



wif3y said:


> I agree. I ask him why? What have I done to not be trusted and like always he never has a reason.


I’m not trying to be mean here but only to give you a bit of a shove in the right direction. You are having a huge pity party. Why not start putting into play some of the things suggested here to get your husband more social with his male friends, and you both socializing more doing interesting things. Once he has a better social life it will be much easier to get out and do things with your friends because he will be doing things with his friends.

And tell him that ok, you will only go dancing with him there. But that means that he has to go to dancing classes with you and learn to dance. And it has to be a joint hobby.


----------



## weightlifter

wifey understand, there have been a number of affair threads here that started as GNOs.

coguy? the one where wife lost father and it was near Halloween
one bachelorette where there was a pic of his wife sitting clothed on a giant dong at a strip club
one bachelorette that ended with simulated t1t sex.
one of our GNO advocates admitted one of her married friends made out with a guy in a club and another did something she never expanded on.
the how much change is too much thread.

Russian roulette. I understand your frustration... and his not taking chances.


----------



## weightlifter

I know personally of one GNO where the wives lied and went to a male review that ended with two of them cheating in the VIP room.


----------



## jaquen

wif3y said:


> I feel the same way but, he insists that it isn't about trust he saids that since we are married it's like the law that we cant go out without each other. I told him he should have time too for himself with guy friends and that I don't see a problem with that, you know what his response was? That it seems like I want a swinger marriage! I just feel so frustrated what the heck?!?! That is nothing close to what I want I just want us to be able to hang out with friends without the other hovering over. I would like to have a girls night where I can chit chat with girls and vent about my daily problems or even about my marriage and have some safe fun. I don't know this is just taking a toll on me its driving me nuts and more when he makes the stupid comment that if I want to live the single life then I should just be single instead. Ugh! I am so frustrated mostly because I just had once again this conversation with him and I am really trying to have him understand me. He is sooo stubborn!


Do you regret getting married so young? Not just to him, but to anyone? The more you communicate the more it seems like you might be longing for more of a good boyfriend than a permanent commitment to a husband.

Does that ring true at all for you?


----------



## The Middleman

*wif3y: This is why having a girls/boys night out is not acceptable in marriage.*

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/215978-help-advice-appreciated.html#post10114850


----------



## jaquen

The Middleman said:


> *wif3y: This is why having a girls/boys night out is not acceptable in marriage.*
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/215978-help-advice-appreciated.html#post10114850


You do realize that plenty of people handing G/BNO with no problem whatsoever, right? That linking a couple disaster stories on TAM doesn't suddenly make nights out with friends a universal no-no for marriage?

In my experience TAM is full of marriages that are so dysfunctional and warped that something as simple as a G/BNO is enough to cause trouble. People in functioning, healthy, strong marriages don't suddenly, accidentally just trip into another person's genitalia because they took a trip out of town to a friend's birthday party.

This is a land of broken marriages, some really horrible disaster stories. What you don't get the chance to see often is the silent majority; people for whom the idea of whether you can have a girls/GNO doesn't even cross their mind; it's a no-brainer that the adults involved can handle it without becoming adulterers.


----------



## Prodigal

Did I miss something here? If so, I apologize. But this discussion continues to be about wife wanting to hang with her girlfriends, and husband feeling it is inappropriate.

WHAT ABOUT THE CHILD???????? I mean, c'mon ...


----------



## EleGirl

Prodigal said:


> Did I miss something here? If so, I apologize. But this discussion continues to be about wife wanting to hang with her girlfriends, and husband feeling it is inappropriate.
> 
> WHAT ABOUT THE CHILD???????? I mean, c'mon ...


The child is not her child. CORRECTION.. in her profile she says that he is her child.

However, even a woman who has a child can go out lunch and shopping with female friends and cause no harm to her child.


ETA: I don't think it's her son as she would have been about 14 when she had him. Looking back the OP did not answer any questions about who the bi-parents are.


----------



## jaquen

Prodigal said:


> Did I miss something here? If so, I apologize. But this discussion continues to be about wife wanting to hang with her girlfriends, and husband feeling it is inappropriate.
> 
> WHAT ABOUT THE CHILD???????? I mean, c'mon ...


What about the child?


----------



## cuchulain36

I was OK with it until my wife started coming home at 4:00 AM stinking drunk and the occasional "GNO" turned into twice a week clubbing.

She came home one night and I said you can keep doing what you're doing, but it will be without being married to me, I'm done and if you want to drink at bars with your divorced friends you can join their ranks.


----------



## The Middleman

jaquen said:


> You do realize that plenty of people handing G/BNO with no problem whatsoever, right? That linking a couple disaster stories on TAM doesn't suddenly make nights out with friends a universal no-no for marriage?
> 
> In my experience TAM is full of marriages that are so dysfunctional and warped that something as simple as a G/BNO is enough to cause trouble. People in functioning, healthy, strong marriages don't suddenly, accidentally just trip into another person's genitalial because they took a trip out of town to a friend's birthday.
> 
> This is a land of broken marriages, horrible disaster stories. What you don't get the chance to see often is the silent majority; people for whom the idea of whether you can have a girls/GNO doesn't even cross their mind; it's a no-brainer that the adults involved can handle it without becoming adulterers.



I stick by my previous statements, especially in Wif3y's case; she's vulnerable to a PUA. Maybe, just maybe, her husband knows her better than we do and he has a reason for taking his position .... in addition to his core beliefs.


----------



## Quant

EleGirl said:


> The child is not her child.
> 
> However, even a woman who has a child can go out lunch and shopping with female friends and cause no harm to her child.
> 
> 
> ETA: I don't think it's her son as she would have been about 14 when she had him. Looking back the OP did not answer any questions about who the bi-parents are.


Two way street then,men should be able to avoid single moms and their hell span like the plague with no social stigma.Not her child then lots of dudes who are raising other mens seed are getting shafted.


----------



## Miss Taken

I go against the grain as the faithful spouse in my relationship. I have no problem with GNO and had one a couple months ago even, at a BAR. For eleven years I have enjoyed going out, drinking and dancing with friends on occassion. Despite being hit on at least once when I do go, I've never cheated or even danced with another man. 

My partner's affair however, started at HOME via the computer. People who cheat will cheat whether it's out on a G/BNO or a dating site. I honestly believe those with wives or husbands that cheated on a night out probably would have cheated in another setting.


----------



## EleGirl

cuchulain36 said:


> I was OK with it until my wife started coming home at 4:00 AM stinking drunk and the occasional "GNO" turned into twice a week clubbing.
> 
> She came home one night and I said you can keep doing what you're doing, but it will be without being married to me, I'm done and if you want to drink at bars with your divorced friends you can join their ranks.


Not every woman who goes on a GNO turns into a stinking drunk alcoholic or has an affair. Probably not most.


----------



## EleGirl

Quant said:


> Two way street then,men should be able to avoid single moms and their hell span like the plague with no social stigma.Not her child then lots of dudes who are raising other mens seed are getting shafted.


There are a lot of women who are stepmoms and raise their husband's children. I'm one of them as I raised my husband's child with little/no help from him.

My point about the 8 year old not being her child is was simply the notion of "what about the child" as though a mother going out once in a while is somehow neglecting her child or her step child.


----------



## The Middleman

Miss Taken said:


> I go against the grain as the faithful spouse in my relationship. I have no problem with GNO and had one a couple months ago even, at a BAR. For eleven years I have enjoyed going out, drinking and dancing with friends on occassion. Despite being hit on at least once when I do go, I've never cheated or even danced with another man.
> 
> My partner's affair however, started at HOME via the computer. People who cheat will cheat whether it's out on a G/BNO or a dating site. I honestly believe those with wives or husbands that cheated on a night out probably would have cheated in another setting.


At the end of the day, it's a matter of what your partner thinks about it and if you can live with his/her boundaries or not. I don't do BNOs and the wife, for the most part, does not do GNOs (resturants only). The No Nights Out is my boundary and has been in effect for years ... successfully. If she insisted on going out to bars or clubs without me, I'd have some tough decisions to make.


----------



## murphy5

Miss Taken said:


> I honestly believe those with wives or husbands that cheated on a night out probably would have cheated in another setting.


there are some people that are looking to cheat

some people who would not cheat if they had to bunk in a Thailand brothel for a month

and some people that would not think of cheating....normally. But slip a drink or two into them, watching their friends dancing with men at the bar, getting hit on, listening to GF's talking smack about cheating on their husbands, whatever....those people are best NOT ever going on GNO (or whatever the male equivalent is). They have a chemical reaction to the alcohol or succumb to the peer pressure. They may go to the GNO with the purest intentions, but simply can not hold their liquor/pot enough to not get "confused"


----------



## EleGirl

Miss Taken said:


> I go against the grain as the faithful spouse in my relationship. I have no problem with GNO and had one a couple months ago even, at a BAR. For eleven years I have enjoyed going out, drinking and dancing with friends on occassion. Despite being hit on at least once when I do go, I've never cheated or even danced with another man.
> 
> My partner's affair however, started at HOME via the computer. People who cheat will cheat whether it's out on a G/BNO or a dating site. I honestly believe those with wives or husbands that cheated on a night out probably would have cheated in another setting.


Good post!! This is exactly right.

When I was married I went out with girl friends about once a month. Some times just to dinner. Some times to places that had drinks, dancing, etc. I've never had an affair. None of us ever picked up on guys. 

Some people can enjoy being out with friends and not do bad things.

ETA: 

My first husband cheated with women who worked at his hospitable.

My second husband cheated with women he met online and then met up with on business trips.

Seems that work and home computers should be avoided at all costs.


----------



## cuchulain36

EleGirl said:


> Not every woman who goes on a GNO turns into a stinking drunk alcoholic or has an affair. Probably not most.



I wasn't aware I said most women would in my statement. However mid 30s if your wife starts wanting to go out with single or divorced friends, starts drinking heavy it's probably a sign of bad things to come.

Socializing frequently without your spouse is a sure fire way to spawn an affair and destroy a marriage.


----------



## murphy5

I hear the statistic that something like 40-50% of all men/women cheat at least once during their marriage. 

So I guess that means 40-50% of all people hould never go on a GNO. I guess the trick is figuring out if your spouse is in or out of that club.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Wifey, I have been reading the various commentary here and thought I would offer my tuppence worth:


As people have said, in general *a lot of* socialising outside of the marriage with others leads to a breakdown in communications and trust between husbands and wives ... eventually. And this could be as harmless as starting out as chit chats with same sex friends. However, this is only the case where this is excessive and/or secretive. This does not appear to be the case here, but you should be vigilant.

That having been said, you need to have your own circle of friends and so does your hubby. Not necessarily wide circles and they, in a perfect world, should be people that both of you approve of. Your husband is young, clingy and immature relationship wise and although you are younger, appear to be more mature (which by the way, I have seen many times and can be quite normal). He needs mentoring from an "older, wiser" person (someone he looks up to) to help him see how to treat and respect his wife for the well-being of your marriage not only now but also further down the line. This does not always happen early enough in a marriage and it often takes half the married life for a husband to finally mature (sometimes too late).

He needs to understand that dancing is important to you as is any hobby you or he may hold dear. Unfortunately, it will be more difficult to do this if he is still immature and so he needs to understand my above point first. In any case, you have to persistently yet gently make it clear to him that this is something you would like to do and do with him. Maybe reading "His Needs Her Needs" would help.

Other than the vigilance you need to exercise on hanging out with other groups of people, you are in the right here (if there is a right) to expect him to dance with you and certainly have time on your own with your friend(s). And its better to handle this earlier rather than later, else resentment will build up.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Another question is whether being a paranoid, jealous control-freak is a decent and acceptable way to live your life. If that is what it takes to keep my wife faithful and my marriage together then I would prefer to be divorced.


----------



## jaquen

cuchulain36 said:


> Socializing frequently without your spouse is a sure fire way to spawn an affair and destroy a marriage.


I socialize frequently without my wife as we don't have a mutual social set. Never have.

14 years and counting together and I haven't accidentally slipped into any strange yet. Perhaps in another 14? We'll see.



cuchulain36 said:


> I was OK with it until my wife started coming home at 4:00 AM stinking drunk and the occasional "GNO" turned into twice a week clubbing.
> 
> She came home one night and I said you can keep doing what you're doing, but it will be without being married to me, I'm done and if you want to drink at bars with your divorced friends you can join their ranks.



But do you realize that the "girls night out" didn't change your wife. That's who your wife was (is?). 

If a B/GNO ends up being an issue it's not because hanging out with friends is evil, it's because it reveals something already inside of you or your spouse. 

The same way plenty of people can have just one slice of cake, but there are others for whom this triggers massive overeating of the entire cake, and then the ice cream, cookies, candy, etc. But how foolish would I look going "Nobody should ever eat cake" simply because SOME people have a deeper issue that prompts them to binge eat?


----------



## jaquen

johnnycomelately said:


> Another question is whether being a paranoid, jealous control-freak is a decent and acceptable way to live your life. If that is what it takes to keep my wife faithful and my marriage together then I would prefer to be divorced.



Thank you.

One of the most valuable lessons TAM has taught me is that if I followed the majority of the common "TAM rules", my marriage would be dead in record time. I see people around here who are running prisons, not marriages, or at least marriage in the way I define it.

Back when I first found this board and use to read a lot of threads, I started asking my wife questions based off the various dysfunctional topics you see here. Eventually she would start joking "baby stop reading that board! You're going to turn around and kill our marriage". :rofl:


----------



## Married but Happy

jaquen said:


> Back when I first found this board and use to read a lot of threads, I started asking my wife questions based off the various dysfunctional topics you see here. Eventually she would start joking "*baby stop reading that board! You're going to turn around and kill our marriage*". :rofl:


After discussing a variety of topics from here with my wife, she said the very same thing! Yes, she was exaggerating, and knows it won't affect me that way, but there is some validity to the idea.


----------



## DoF

I think just labeling "going out" as "girls" or "boys night" is offensive/tasteless and inappropriate to begin with.

Why does it need a label?

I don't see a problem with my wife going out as she pleases, but it really depends WHO she is going out with. If it's her married friends, or friends that are friends of our marriage......go nuts.

If it's bunch of neglected, careless, unhappy wives that want to get their grove on at every corner, yeah, I would probably prefer if she stayed home. But she would certainly make that decision on her own......


----------



## melw74

Dancing and Pubbing is not really for us.

We do not really go out, If we do then we prefer to do it together as we do not have much chance, so when we do we jump at the chance of doing it together.

We have Mutual friends, so if we go out we all go together.....

There is no place in our marriage for nights out on the town with the guys or girls alone.... Its just what it like for us.....


----------



## jaquen

DoF said:


> I think just labeling "going out" as "girls" or "boys night" is offensive/tasteless and inappropriate to begin with.
> 
> Why does it need a label?
> 
> I don't see a problem with my wife going out as she pleases, but it really depends WHO she is going out with. If it's her married friends, or friends that are friends of our marriage......go nuts.
> 
> If it's bunch of neglected, careless, unhappy wives that want to get their grove on at every corner, yeah, I would probably prefer if she stayed home. But she would certainly make that decision on her own......



I guess it helps that my wife and I do not have friends in our lives who are not respectful of our marriage and spouse. All of my friends think, and speak, highly of my wife because I think, and speak highly of my wife and vice versa. We don't bad mouth each other, period. Her dad even said, sarcastically, oh yes I forgot your marriage is perfect. Nothing is perfect, but our marriage is amazing and we do not sit around with other people talking crap about each other.

Her best friend of 10 years suddenly turned on me and started saying some vile things about me, and our relationship. My wife cut her off at the knees, a woman like a sister to her, that week. Actually she was ready to do so the day she did it and I was the one who asked her not to, to give the woman a chance to explain. And this was a year and a half before we wed. She was so not having that nonsense that it was years before she would even speak the woman's name. My wife is literally the sweetest person I've ever met, but a surefire way to bring out her inner-tornado is to attack me.

If a person loves, cherishes, and respects their spouse and want their marriage to work, I'd be asking them why do they have anybody in their life who doesn't show respect for their marriage and spouse.


----------



## DoF

jaquen said:


> I guess it helps that my wife and I do not have friends in our lives who are not respectful of our marriage and spouse. All of my friends think, and speak, highly of my wife because I think, and speak highly of my wife and vice versa. We don't bad mouth each other, period. Her dad even said, sarcastically, oh yes I forgot your marriage is perfect. Nothing is perfect, but our marriage is amazing and we do not sit around with other people talking crap about each other.
> 
> Her best friend of 10 years suddenly turned on me and started saying some vile things about me, and our relationship. My wife cut her off at the knees, a woman like a sister to her, that week. Actually she was ready to do so the day she did it and I was the one who asked her not to, to give the woman a chance to explain. And this was a year and a half before we wed. She was so not having that nonsense that it was years before she would even speak the woman's name. My wife is literally the sweetest person I've ever met, but a surefire way to bring out her inner-tornado is to attack me.
> 
> If a person loves, cherishes, and respects their spouse and want their marriage to work, I'd be asking them why do they have anybody in their life who doesn't show respect for their marriage and spouse.


Sounds great

And BTW, what I said applies even MORE so to MEN than women as I find WAY more careless men out there than women.


----------



## Almostrecovered

hmmmph, only 6 pages in three days on a GNO thread, you guys are slacking


----------



## vellocet

> Is having a girls/boys night out acceptable in marriage?


Depends on the couple and the nature of the night out.

Of course going and doing things with friends should be acceptable. Nothing wrong with that in general. Going to see a movie, shopping, golfing, poker night at a friend's house, etc.

IMO, when it comes to nights out of partying, clubbing, etc, no, its not acceptable. There is a reason to do those thing and nobody really would care to do them if there were nobody of the opposite sex around, and why is that?

But again, depends on the couple. If a spouse doesn't mind going to certain events and getting their ego stroked or a validation/flirtation fix, then so be it. Others recognize it for what it is.....single life behavior, so why get married in the first place?


----------



## naiveonedave

that is where I am at re: GNO/BNO. If you are going to go with single/divorced folks to pick up joints as a married person, I think you are playing with fire. If you go to pick up joints with totally married same sex friends, less risk, but still some. 

The only real reason to go clubbing is the ego candy from getting hit on. Sure dancing and music, but you can do that at home. If you want the dancing make your spouse go. If it isn't his or her gig, make them a little jealous or bribe them or something.


----------



## weightlifter

BTW I mean GNOs at clubs are the dangerous. The evening at a play, the local restaurant etc. Yawn.


----------



## murphy5

manfromlamancha said:


> [*]That having been said, you need to have your own circle of friends and so does your hubby. Not necessarily wide circles and they, in a perfect world, should be people that both of you approve of. Your husband is young, clingy and immature relationship wise
> 
> [*]He needs to understand that dancing is important to you as is any hobby you or he may hold dear. Unfortunately, it will be more difficult to do this if he is still immature and so he needs to understand my above point first. In any case, you have to persistently yet gently make it clear to him that this is something you would like to do and do with him. Maybe reading "His Needs Her Needs" would help.
> [/LIST]


so lets say I declare my "hobby" to be Japanese Rope Bondage. I tell her it is _important_ to me. By your logic, my wife should be perfectly ok with that hobby and the other "hobbyists" I hang out with without her there, otherwise she is "immature"?

:rofl:


----------



## rubymoon

It is acceptable. 

Whoever said that most affairs start at clubs is wrong! Most affairs start at work/school. 

Each partner should have freedom to spend time with his/her friends. Marriage is not a prison. I go out with my friends when I want to and my H is always willing to pick me up if I have too much to drink. I do the same for him. 

You are only 21 - of course you like dancing. If he doesn't like that, he should have married someone my age. Lol!


----------



## vellocet

This all reminds me of when someone says grinding and simulated sex on the dancefloor is "just dancing"


----------



## jaquen

rubymoon said:


> Whoever said that most affairs start at clubs is wrong! Most affairs start at work/school.


Of course most affairs happen with people met at work/school. These days it's possible more people are hooking up online than they do from meeting folks at a bar or club. 

Where are all the threads extolling the virtues of working exclusively from home, dropping out of college and disconnecting your internet?



rubymoon said:


> Each partner should have freedom to spend time with his/her friends. Marriage is not a prison. I go out with my friends when I want to and my H is always willing to pick me up if I have too much to drink. I do the same for him.


Blasphemy!


----------



## JCD

The Middleman said:


> Not necessarily, you can dance with your GFs with him around. But you are married and it's not all about you any more.


Should it be all about him? 

Does the most sensitive and controlling person get to call all the shots?

Are there any UNreasonable demands a husband can make in this thing you call a marriage? If so, what are they? 

Cause let me tell you: saying she can't have female friends anymore is BS. And I very much doubted he told her during the engagement that she wasn't allowed to have them anymore because anyone sensible would take off like a shot upon hearing that. I would.

Please defend that premise.


----------



## JCD

The Middleman said:


> Never said that. I said this:
> 
> 
> When I said Don't go without him, I meant don't go to the club. Nothing wrong with her going to lunch with friends, as long as they aren't toxic friends.
> 
> For me out to bars and clubs without a spouse, even for a little while is a deal breaker. Now when I read her original posting, I saw this:
> 
> 
> I read that as she wants to be at the club for 1 1/2 hours with out him and he objects. I know I would object too, this is not having lunch or dinner with the girls ...unless I read this wrong.


If she is so easy that an hour and a half is all it takes to charm her panties off, he is better off without her period.

I mean please! That is the lack of faith that you are having in this woman. Not only that, but she is doing it BEFORE HER HUSBAND GETS THERE...and who knows when that will be?

I would not and never agree to a wife in a bar alone, even with friends without her husband. But to assume the worst just because life throws you a few scheduling difficulties...well, you are entitled to your opinion.

She would have to be incredibly loose and stupid to do anything under these circumstances.

Unless there is a reason for the husband to be this uncertain about his marriage. Is there, wif3y?


----------



## JCD

weightlifter said:


> wifey understand, there have been a number of affair threads here that started as GNOs.
> 
> coguy? the one where wife lost father and it was near Halloween
> one bachelorette where there was a pic of his wife sitting clothed on a giant dong at a strip club
> one bachelorette that ended with simulated t1t sex.
> one of our GNO advocates admitted one of her married friends made out with a guy in a club and another did something she never expanded on.
> the how much change is too much thread.
> 
> Russian roulette. I understand your frustration... and his not taking chances.


Yes...in an hour and a half when she knows her husband is coming. Let us reiterate that point. You are suggesting that she can be had in an hour and a half...in front of witnesses...with her husband coming.


----------



## JCD

EleGirl said:


> Good post!! This is exactly right.
> 
> When I was married I went out with girl friends about once a month. Some times just to dinner. Some times to places that had drinks, dancing, etc. I've never had an affair. None of us ever picked up on guys.
> 
> Some people can enjoy being out with friends and not do bad things.
> 
> ETA:
> 
> My first husband cheated with women who worked at his hospitable.
> 
> My second husband cheated with women he met online and then met up with on business trips.
> 
> Seems that work and home computers should be avoided at all costs.


:rofl:

There you go, Gentlemen. You can set your boundary: no GNOs. Your wife can set HER boundaries: no computers for you!

Still interested in that boundary thing? Cause this is a TWO way street. Wives get to set boundaries too.


----------



## JCD

jaquen said:


> Thank you.
> 
> One of the most valuable lessons TAM has taught me is that if I followed the majority of the common "TAM rules", my marriage would be dead in record time. I see people around here who are running prisons, not marriages, or at least marriage in the way I define it.
> 
> Back when I first found this board and use to read a lot of threads, I started asking my wife questions based off the various dysfunctional topics you see here. Eventually she would start joking "baby stop reading that board! You're going to turn around and kill our marriage". :rofl:





Married but Happy said:


> After discussing a variety of topics from here with my wife, she said the very same thing! Yes, she was exaggerating, and knows it won't affect me that way, but there is some validity to the idea.


Thirded! Twenty years (some better, some worse). And yet, if my wife asked if she could TALK TO HER FRIENDS in a bar knowing I was coming, I wouldn't blink an eye.

I would if she wanted to hang out in a bar JUST with her friends...see...some of her friends are single and that sends a mixed message. 

Trusting but not stupid.


----------



## AliceA

I think we all should have the freedom to choose for ourselves when and if we go out without our partners while at the same time being considerate of our partner's feelings. 

Just this last weekend DH told me he was heading off to a bucks party. That was fine with me. He came home and told me they went to the strippers, that was also fine with me. I don't feel threatened or worried. That said, he does not do this on a regular basis. If it was every week, or even every other week, it would start to irritate me. Same with when I've gone for girl's nights out, he was absolutely fine with it. Though the last one I went to was last year. I would prefer to go out with him, so we generally try to do things together.

I get the feeling, though I haven't read the whole thread, that you want to go out a lot more. This is probably because you are still young and haven't worked it out of your system yet.

He is crossing a line in making you feel caged. However, I do think you are making him feel insecure in the marriage.


----------



## manfromlamancha

murphy5 said:


> so lets say I declare my "hobby" to be Japanese Rope Bondage. I tell her it is _important_ to me. By your logic, my wife should be perfectly ok with that hobby and the other "hobbyists" I hang out with without her there, otherwise she is "immature"?
> 
> :rofl:


I have no idea what Japanese Rope Bondage exactly is but as long as you are not breaking your marital vows, being disrespectful to your other half and/or anyone else, and not hurting anyone, then go hang out with the other Japanese Rope Bondage enthusiasts. Just don't get yourself tied up in knots!

The OP wants to dance with her husband. She wants to chat with one of her girlfriends in her house while she waits for her husband to get there so that they can go to the club together. This hardly bumping and grinding with other men or tying up anybody to have sex with. Her husband is insecure and immature at the moment and is being unreasonable.


----------



## Pault

IMHO A night out with friends is fine. However, if one of the partners is uncomfortable with this then there neeeds to bean open and frank discussion. 

There are many reasons why a partner will feel uncomfortable. In the main they are;
The friends are single and act that way when out - this might be ok for them but there is a line which the married / committed person must draw and stay well behind. If thefriends are partying and are looking or are open to advances then the stay at home partner has a right to feel uncomfortable.
If either of the partners has acted in a manner has made the stay at home partner feel threatened. Then that partener has a right to feel uncomfortable.
If there are friends within the group who are in supposedly committed relationships but act with the attiude of "what happens on tour stays on tour" then again the stay at home partner has a right to be uncomfotable.

In this case if wifeys H is uncomfortable they must look at the reason for this and be open and honest about it. Many partners who have been hurt in similar situations carry this along for the rest of their lives. Its something that many find difficult to put behind them as their heads are saying "danger situation" and then this causes the discomfort.

Ther ahve been time when Ive been out in an all guys night out and seen the game play going on within the group Im with. Ive made my excuses and left. Ive told my W why Ive left and have in the passt and siince stopped going out with those guys. In some cases the activities have gone back to their partners and all hell has broken out for the innocent one.

My W has been with friends again their has been some over the top antics from actual marrrieds disappearing to the bathroom with a guy for a while to contact with male strippers going on. These activities get back. Ive seen this first hand. It only takes one activity to happen and then there is a caution needed next time its a friends anight out. 

Each couple must go through thgis and each must be able to make the other feel secure. If that is not the case than the problems with follow.


----------



## JCD

intheory said:


> From OP's biography:
> 
> 
> "Biography
> I am a fun outgoing 22 year old that has lived life a little to fast. I am married to a more calmer 26 year old, they do say opposites attract! I have a son he is 8, yes I had him when I was very young."


That is a flag. Is it a killer flag? Depends. Considering she bent over backwards to reasonable demands by hubby (not going alone, moving her 'not with him time' from club to house), I think that goes to her credit.

If we are going to throw stones, we also have to give credit.


----------



## The Middleman

JCD:

I stand by all my previous statements and there is no need to defend any of my positions ... they stand on their own.

Her husband has his boundaries and she can decide if she wants to stay or go .. it's her call. I'm on her husbands side in this case because he knows her better than we do from these one sided posts we have been getting. It's clear to me from her postings and her profile and the fact that it appears that she had a child at 13 or 14 that she is a risk going out on her own ... and her husband knows this.

Notice how she hasn't been back? She got advice that she didn't want to hear.


----------



## manfromlamancha

I will say this again - she does not want to go to clubs with her friends only. She wants to go with her husband. The husband agreed to go. He just didn't want her to go to her friend's house and wait for him there. She even agreed to not go to the club and wait for him there.

Whatever his boundaries are, they are unreasonable in this case. Unless he thinks that she is up to something while alone (chatting) with her (female) friend and waiting for him at the friends house.

However wild she was before, she does not appear to be wild at all now. I think that the OP was trying to say that she is more outgoing than her husband and she respects that. I don't think that there is any cause for concern unless her husband knows something we all don't about this friend of hers or her past behaviour with similar friends. Again nothing on this thread indicates that.

My wife likes to go dancing - and I go with her because I know that even though I am not much of a dancer. Separately, we also have talked about dance classes. And it is not the same as going to dancing classes and milkshakes afterwards. It sounds like they don't have much of a social life together and if he knew that she liked dancing (at clubs) before he married her he should have taken this into consideration and laid down these particular (though unreasonable) boundaries before getting married.


----------



## JCD

The Middleman said:


> JCD:
> 
> I stand by all my previous statements and there is no need to defend any of my positions ... they stand on their own.
> 
> Her husband has his boundaries and she can decide if she wants to stay or go .. it's her call. I'm on her husbands side in this case because he knows her better than we do from these one sided posts we have been getting. It's clear to me from her postings and her profile and the fact that it appears that she had a child at 13 or 14 that she is a risk going out on her own ... and her husband knows this.
> 
> Notice how she hasn't been back? She got advice that she didn't want to hear.


Well, when the advice she hears accuses her of being an easy lay and a liar, yeah, I might take offense too.

I am not asking you to defend YOUR opinions. I am asking you to defend the HUSBANDS.

She is not allowed to go to a friends house. Without any other information or projection from you that it's a den of iniquity, is it reasonable for her to not be allowed to go to a friends house?

You need to make these judgments according to the information we are given, not what we want to project on the situation. Because this woman has adjusted her life at least twice on this issue out of respect and love.

He hasn't. So we are stuck deciding that either she needs watching every minute or that he, at the tender age of 26 (boy I was an idiot at 26), is making decisions which might bear a bit of consideration.


----------



## JCD

manfromlamancha said:


> I will say this again - she does not want to go to clubs with her friends only. She wants to go with her husband. The husband agreed to go. He just didn't want her to go to her friend's house and wait for him there. She even agreed to not go to the club and wait for him there.
> 
> Whatever his boundaries are, they are unreasonable in this case. Unless he thinks that she is up to something while alone (chatting) with her (female) friend and waiting for him at the friends house.
> 
> However wild she was before, she does not appear to be wild at all now. I think that the OP was trying to say that she is more outgoing than her husband and she respects that. I don't think that there is any cause for concern unless her husband knows something we all don't about this friend of hers or her past behaviour with similar friends. Again nothing on this thread indicates that.
> 
> My wife likes to go dancing - and I go with her because I know that even though I am not much of a dancer. Separately, we also have talked about dance classes. And it is not the same as going to dancing classes and milkshakes afterwards. It sounds like they don't have much of a social life together and if he knew that she liked dancing (at clubs) before he married her he should have taken this into consideration and laid down these particular (though unreasonable) boundaries before getting married.


Let's not go too far.

She wanted to see her friends, period. Hubby had a problem so she said 'come with' after okaying it with the friends.

She gave him a REASONABLE schedule. After all, they are very young. She goes early, she gets to avoid a cover charge (young couples are very cash strapped, particularly with an 8 year old) and she gets time to talk with her girls...which were the whole reason she's there...TO TALK TO HER FRIENDS (Middle Man...are you getting this?)

Hubby is indignant. HE thinks she's so easy that an hour and a half is too much time away from his munificent presence (unless she is earning him money...then it's DANDY)

Okay. Wife backs up again. No problem. I won't go to the club without you. I'll go to a friend's house.

THAT is not good enough for hubs either. Why does she need to talk to her friends? She should wait at home, hands folded across her knees and wait in a dark room for his Magnificence to arrive to make her life complete.

That being said, Man of...we don't know how wild she was or still is. She didn't originally want hubs there. She had mentioned that her strictures are making her feel smothered by him (not that hubby seems intent on fixing anything...if they divorce, it's on him) And we don't KNOW that she wouldn't be trying to dance with every guy in the room...but we also don't know if she just wanted to girl dance. 

So lets not project too much innocence on her. She's had a bit of a jaded past.


----------



## EleGirl

manfromlamancha said:


> I have no idea what *Japanese Rope Bondage* exactly is but as long as you are not breaking your marital vows, being disrespectful to your other half and/or anyone else, and not hurting anyone, then go hang out with the other Japanese Rope Bondage enthusiasts. Just don't get yourself tied up in knots!
> 
> The OP wants to dance with her husband. She wants to chat with one of her girlfriends in her house while she waits for her husband to get there so that they can go to the club together. This hardly bumping and grinding with other men or tying up anybody to have sex with. Her husband is insecure and immature at the moment and is being unreasonable.


I did a google image search on it (at that moment my 25 year old son walked in the room.. .argh. He's comment was "mom you are weird")

Anyway, it's all about tying up women using a lot of rope and fancy knows in very uncomfortable positions, even handing them from the ropes after they are tied up. The doing sexual things to the women once they are tied up and cannot defend themselves.

It takes a long time, sometimes hours, to tie a woman up just right (also read about it). It can be done to men, but mostly the pictures, etc were all with women being bound up.

This is not dancing, serious bondage is not something most people can do. 

Dancing, anyone can do it.


----------



## manfromlamancha

JCD said:


> Let's not go too far.
> 
> She wanted to see her friends, period. Hubby had a problem so she said 'come with' after okaying it with the friends.
> 
> She gave him a REASONABLE schedule. After all, they are very young. She goes early, she gets to avoid a cover charge (young couples are very cash strapped, particularly with an 8 year old) and she gets time to talk with her girls...which were the whole reason she's there...TO TALK TO HER FRIENDS (Middle Man...are you getting this?)
> 
> Hubby is indignant. HE thinks she's so easy that an hour and a half is too much time away from his munificent presence (unless she is earning him money...then it's DANDY)
> 
> Okay. Wife backs up again. No problem. I won't go to the club without you. I'll go to a friend's house.
> 
> THAT is not good enough for hubs either. Why does she need to talk to her friends? She should wait at home, hands folded across her knees and wait in a dark room for his Magnificence to arrive to make her life complete.
> 
> That being said, Man of...we don't know how wild she was or still is. She didn't originally want hubs there. She had mentioned that her strictures are making her feel smothered by him (not that hubby seems intent on fixing anything...if they divorce, it's on him) And we don't KNOW that she wouldn't be trying to dance with every guy in the room...but we also don't know if she just wanted to girl dance.
> 
> So lets not project too much innocence on her. She's had a bit of a jaded past.



Exactly! We don't know how wild or not wild she was/is. We can only judge by what she has said here. And from what she has said, she hasn't overstepped any mark. Husband "appears" to be unreasonable. But as we all know there are always two sides to every story. We just haven't heard the other side yet.

As for not wanting her husband there, she has said she wanted some time with her (girl) friend(s). When he pointed out that this was a boundary for him, she addressed it immediately.


----------



## JCD

manfromlamancha said:


> Exactly! We don't know how wild or not wild she was/is. We can only judge by what she has said here. And from what she has said, she hasn't overstepped any mark. Husband "appears" to be unreasonable. But as we all know there are always two sides to every story. We just haven't heard the other side yet.
> 
> As for not wanting her husband there, she has said she wanted some time with her (girl) friend(s). When he pointed out that this was a boundary for him, she addressed it immediately.


Yup. I agree with you.


----------



## JCD

intheory said:


> Didn't throw any stones, merely copied and pasted from OP's profile page.
> 
> Therefore, her words, not mine.


I wasn't talking about that. It was a fair statement.

I was addressing this assumption that because she wants a GNO where she can dance without The Wet Blanket complaining they are dancing too much, she is suddenly a loose woman.

Okay...maybe we ding her for that. It's an assumption, but it's plausible.

But if we are doing that, we also need to give her credit for when she backed up not once, but twice for her husband to make him feel better.

What credit does he get? Well...he was willing to go to the club with her (and possibly ruin her evening if he spends all night monopolizing her or glowering at everyone). That's about it.

Granted, when I am at a club with my wife, I make sure to monopolize her. So I can cast no stones.


----------



## jaquen

Why the heck would I, or anybody, want to be married to somebody so loose and weak that a night out at the club, and a couple drinks, is all it takes to land them on the nearest c0ck (or vagina)?

I mean I wouldn't even want to be married to somebody who I had so little trust in, in a marriage that was so easily blown away.


----------



## naiveonedave

jaquen - I think it is a couple of things: probability of an affair while off on a GNO, has to be pretty high relative to hanging with your spouse, he may have been burned by a cheater before, etc. It isn't that he trusts her so little, it is the risk of 100's of potential temptations over time.


----------



## jaquen

naiveonedave said:


> jaquen - I think it is a couple of things: probability of an affair while off on a GNO, has to be pretty high relative to hanging with your spouse, he may have been burned by a cheater before, etc. It isn't that he trusts her so little, it is the risk of 100's of potential temptations over time.



You can't stop your partner from cheating. That's really the end of the story. People who vulnerable to affairs don't need to go to bars or clubs. They can find strange at work, at a coffee shop, at the gym, even at church...

I think this whole G/BNO backlash on this board is a desperate attempt to try and control that which is completely out of your control. It's easier to villainize mundane things that most people can handle just fine, instead of admitting to the fear that I ultimately really can not stop my spouse from sleeping with somebody else no matter what I do.

At the end of the day all you can do is work on being the spouse your partner deserves. That's it. You can do NOTHING to stop somebody from cheating. The opportunities in this world are plentiful, and they are far more accessible than a club or bar in 2014. But a lot of people don't want to hear that.


----------



## weightlifter

jaquen said:


> You can't stop your partner from cheating. That's really the end of the story. People who vulnerable to affairs don't need to go to bars or clubs. They can find strange at work, at a coffee shop, at the gym, even at church...
> 
> I think this whole G/BNO backlash on this board is a desperate attempt to try and control that which is completely out of your control. It's easier to villainize mundane things that most people can handle just fine, instead of admitting to the fear that I ultimately really can not stop my spouse from sleeping with somebody else no matter what I do.
> 
> At the end of the day all you can do is work on being the spouse your partner deserves. That's it. You can do NOTHING to stop somebody from cheating. The opportunities in this world are plentiful, and they are far more accessible than a club or bar in 2014. But a lot of people don't want to hear that.


Assuming you go out clubbing and are married. Respectfully of course.

No member of your group has ever cheated in any form at a GNO? This includes making out or grinding on a guy.

Ill take you at your word. Note on another thread one of our gno advocates admitted a friend went outside and made out with some guy and hubby is clueless about it.


----------



## murphy5

EleGirl said:


> doing sexual things to the women once they are tied up and cannot defend themselves.
> .


I thought people knew what that term meant...I should have used a different example, but an extreme example drives home my point.

There is no sex in rope bondage, just tying up the person with fancy knots, and taking pictures.

My point: Some would think that was perfectly acceptable, even when you were married, because you had no sex with the person tied up.

A spouse could VERY EASILY say HOLD THE PHONE, you are doing WHAT to NAKED WOMEN? Tying them up??? Naked? No frigin way is that allowed. That is CHEATING.

Which spouse has the correct opinion? 

EXACT SAME THING with OP. Wife is going to a club, dancing with men that are not him. SHE thinks it is harmless. HE disagrees. Tells her to not do it. She ignores him. Hilarity ensues.

In both examples, I believe if either spouse seriously objects...then it should not be pursued. Whatever the "hobby" is, no matter how "innocent" one of the spouses thinks it is. Three is no absolute right or wrong, there is only what your spouse thinks of you.


----------



## JCD

weightlifter said:


> Assuming you go out clubbing and are married. Respectfully of course.
> 
> No member of your group has ever cheated in any form at a GNO? This includes making out or grinding on a guy.
> 
> Ill take you at your word. Note on another thread one of our gno advocates admitted a friend went outside and made out with some guy and hubby is clueless about it.


Well, the gents seem to be talking about a 'slippery slope' argument about a GNO/bar thing.

Thing is, when you are on a roof, there are TWO slopes (unless you are talking about a Frank Lloyd Wright house)

So let's look at the other slope:

Of course we can't let her go to a bar ALONE, that is WAY too dangerous, because my friend's cousins gf kissed some guy one.

And we can't let her dance with girls, because that will turn some guys on...and than said guys will hit on her and because said guys hit on her, she will, of course, submit. You know...because women are like that. If some guy hits on her, she'll be tempted...and probably do it.

So...we keep her out of clubs. BUT...OTHER women are ALSO a bad influence! We can't know how skanky her friends are (after all, they are loose enough to actually want to leave the house and have fun at (shudder) a BAR) So of course she can't go to her FRIENDS house. There might be men there! Or she might talk to these loose bar going wimmins.

So she should stay home!

But...a man has to work! And the problem is...a house has DOORS...so ANYONE can come in...like men or loose bar going wimmins.

Better she only makes friends with HIS family. HER family might be filled with loose bar going wimmins or at least make up lies if she meets other men.

And work...you know who are at work? MEN and loose bar going wimmins!

Better she get a job only with women...but...

So better she stay at home.

and we might as well put a burka on her too!


----------



## The Middleman

murphy5 said:


> Whatever the "hobby" is, no matter how "innocent" one of the spouses thinks it is. Three is no absolute right or wrong, there is only what your spouse thinks of you.


And this is my point too. Her husband has his own "boundaries" regarding the dancing and she doesn't feel it should be a boundary. So ... no one has her tied up (naked or not  ) and she can tell him to screw off and go out to the club anyway ..... and he can decide if he will accept that or not. Then the chips will fall where they may. It just so happens that I side with her husband, because this is a "boundary" of mine ... I share his opinion.

Now about him not wanting her not having friends: that sounds pretty strange to me, and I understand why some people feel "concerned" but remember that he knows her better than we do and he may have a reason. Note that her profile says this:


> Biography
> I am a fun outgoing 22 year old that has lived life a little to fast. I am married to a more calmer 26 year old, they do say opposites attract! I have a son he is 8, yes I had him when I was very young.
> 
> Location
> United States
> 
> Interests
> I love to dance! I really like to read mystery/crime books. Best of all I love to learn except math lol!


Sounds like he has a reason for his position.

Also, make no mistake about it: This is all about going out dancing, not the friendships. That's how this all started.


----------



## Prodigal

EleGirl said:


> However, even a woman who has a child can go out lunch and shopping with female friends and cause no harm to her child.


WHAT THE?!?!? I didn't say SQUAT about a woman not having the right to go to lunch or shopping with female friends.

Quit trying to read something into my post that isn't there, okay? The OP mentioned an 8-year-old child, which made me wonder if they do something with him together.

I got no answer. I just want to know how this couple share time with their child.




EleGirl said:


> ETA: *I don't think it's her son *as she would have been about 14 when she had him. Looking back the OP did not answer any questions about who the bi-parents are.


So you don't "think" it's her son, but you don't know, right? Maybe it is. She wouldn't be the first girl to have a child at the age of 14. 

Okay, you all keep debating the pro's/con's of GNO or whatever. 

I asked a straightforward question. I received no response. It made me wonder what the heck was the reason for the OP'er letting us even know there is a child involved in this equation if said child is not part of the equation.

JEESH!!!!


----------



## EleGirl

manfromlamancha said:


> He needs to understand that dancing is important to you as is any hobby you or he may hold dear. Unfortunately, it will be more difficult to do this if he is still immature and so he needs to understand my above point first. In any case, you have to persistently yet gently make it clear to him that this is something you would like to do and do with him. Maybe reading "His Needs Her Needs" would help.





murphy5 said:


> so lets say I declare my "hobby" to be Japanese Rope Bondage. I tell her it is _important_ to me. By your logic, my wife should be perfectly ok with that hobby and the other "hobbyists" I hang out with without her there, otherwise she is "immature"?
> :rofl:





murphy5 said:


> I thought people knew what that term meant...I should have used a different example, but an extreme example drives home my point.
> 
> There is no sex in rope bondage, just tying up the person with fancy knots, and taking pictures.
> 
> My point: Some would think that was perfectly acceptable, even when you were married, because you had no sex with the person tied up.
> 
> A spouse could VERY EASILY say HOLD THE PHONE, you are doing WHAT to NAKED WOMEN? Tying them up??? Naked? No frigin way is that allowed. That is CHEATING.
> Which spouse has the correct opinion?


MFL suggested, as did others, that the OP ask her husband to join her in dancing because it’s something that she likes to do.

Your response was to laugh at him and suggest that asking her husband to be her dance partner would be equivalent to him having Japanese Rope Bondage as a hobby.

What is so terrible about a woman asking her husband to take up dancing so that they can go out dancing since she really likes to dance?



murphy5 said:


> EXACT SAME THING with OP. Wife is going to a club, dancing with men that are not him. SHE thinks it is harmless. HE disagrees. Tells her to not do it. She ignores him. Hilarity ensues.


The OP is not going to clubs dancing with men. She says that she does not dance with other men. So your argument is about naught.




murphy5 said:


> In both examples, I believe if either spouse seriously objects...then it should not be pursued. Whatever the "hobby" is, no matter how "innocent" one of the spouses thinks it is. Three is no absolute right or wrong, there is only what your spouse thinks of you.


Again she’s not dancing with other men. 

What is wrong with her asking her husband to learn to dance so he can be a good dance partner?


----------



## EleGirl

Prodigal said:


> WHAT THE?!?!? I didn't say SQUAT about a woman not having the right to go to lunch or shopping with female friends.
> 
> Quit trying to read something into my post that isn't there, okay? The OP mentioned an 8-year-old child, which made me wonder if they do something with him together.
> 
> I got no answer. I just want to know how this couple share time with their child.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you don't "think" it's her son, but you don't know, right? Maybe it is. She wouldn't be the first girl to have a child at the age of 14.
> 
> Okay, you all keep debating the pro's/con's of GNO or whatever.
> 
> I asked a straightforward question. I received no response. It made me wonder what the heck was the reason for the OP'er letting us even know there is a child involved in this equation if said child is not part of the equation.
> 
> JEESH!!!!


I added a correction to my post.. in her profile the OP says that he is her child. It's the only place she addresses this.

I apologize if I misunderstood your post. I read it as you meaning that as a woman with a child she should not be going out at all. Since the discussion had broadened to include her husband's stance is that she should never do anything social without him.. not even lunch or shopping with a female friend I thought you knew that that was part of the discussion. 

The OP's original post was that she wanted to have a GNO with her female friend(s). But in further posts, in response to questions, she said that her husband also does not allow her to do anything with female friends... not even lunch, or shopping. He says that she should never do anything social without him being with her.

So the issue is bigger than her wanting to have a GNO with female friends, going to a female friend's house to talk/hang for an hour or so without her husband.


----------



## Entropy3000

EleGirl said:


> Again she’s not dancing with other men.
> 
> What is wrong with her asking her husband to learn to dance so he can be a good dance partner?


Ok, I confess I am taking this quote out of contest and have not followed this thread.

But this quote by EleGirl is dead on.

1) She loves to dance.

2) She is married.

3) Husband dances with her.

next question.


----------



## EleGirl

The Middleman said:


> And this is my point too. Her husband has his own "boundaries" regarding the dancing and she doesn't feel it should be a boundary. So ... no one has her tied up (naked or not  ) and she can tell him to screw off and go out to the club anyway ..... and he can decide if he will accept that or not. Then the chips will fall where they may. It just so happens that I side with her husband, because this is a "boundary" of mine ... I share his opinion.
> 
> Now about him not wanting her not having friends: that sounds pretty strange to me, and I understand why some people feel "concerned" but remember that he knows her better than we do and he may have a reason. Note that her profile says this:
> 
> 
> Sounds like he has a reason for his position.
> 
> Also, make no mistake about it: This is all about going out dancing, not the friendships. That's how this all started.


She said that since she is married, she does not dance with other men. She wanted to dance with her female friends.

What is wrong with dancing?


----------



## JCD

Entropy3000 said:


> Ok, I confess I am taking this quote out of contest and have not followed this thread.
> 
> But this quote by EleGirl is dead on.
> 
> 1) She loves to dance.
> 
> 2) She is married.
> 
> 3) Husband dances with her *begrudgingly*
> 
> next question.


Fixed that for you.

He doesn't know how to dance and isn't interested in learning...and he doesn't do it much.


----------



## JCD

This isn't the question.

Is he being reasonable by not allowing her to go alone to a female friends house?

Dancing I get. Bars, I sort of get. 

Not being free to visit a friend...? Really?

All we get are justifications that 'he must know something' because otherwise, those who support his stand have to concede he is unreasonable. 

Why are we bending over backwards to find any excuse to find him reasonable when the easiest interpretation is he is NOT being reasonable?

It is entirely possible, even likely, for the husband to have reasonable AND unreasonable worries. I think he is straying into the later with the house and friend thing. And an honest man would admit that.

Middleman, I am not trying to pick on you. I would probably go ballistic if my wife went to a bar alone with her friends. I took her to one once (it isn't our thing, but it was a social event) and I was a bit worried...unjustifiably because my wife decided she didn't want to go more than five steps away from me! This wasn't something I demanded or even implied either.

Of course, I had to trust her to find that out.

I think this guy is a mix of both points. Don't defend his bad points just because you happen to agree with his reasonable ones.


----------



## Theseus

intheory said:


> I don't get to dance either. No dancing for me. H won't and won't learn. I get a lot out of exercising to music. That is how I've filled that need.





The Middleman said:


> It just so happens that I side with her husband, because this is a "boundary" of mine ... I share his opinion.
> 
> Now about him not wanting her not having friends: that sounds pretty strange to me, and I understand why some people feel "concerned" but remember that he knows her better than we do and he may have a reason. Note that her profile says this:


Sure sounds like prison for both of you. If that works in your marriages, then it's fine for you. It certainly won't work with most people I know. 

Middleman, even if he thinks he has a reason, that's his problem. He's her husband, not her father. He can't dedicate the rest of his life monitoring her actions. The OP is an adult. 

Maybe some people here are posting from Saudi Arabia where women can't control their hormones, and have to be covered head to toe and escorted everywhere by a male relative, otherwise they would certainly cheat?

It's perfectly normal and healthy to go out from time to time without your spouse, even to clubs. Like anything else in life: drinking, suntanning, bungee jumping, it's fine if it's done in moderation and doesn't take the place of your spouse.


----------



## WallaceBea

EleGirl said:


> So you want to go out to bars and clubs to dance with men besides your husband. Is that right?
> 
> Some people are ok with their spouse doing that, some are not. As a wife you have to respect your husband's view on this. That's marriage.
> 
> A lot of affairs happen on girls/boys nights out when they include drinking and being around people of the opposite sex in a pick up place.
> 
> Why doesn't your husband dance with your when you go out with him?
> 
> Are there other types of girls nights/days out that you want to do but he objects to? Like do you go out with your girl friends and/or sister(s) to lunch? Do you go out shopping with female friends/relatives? Is he ok with you doing that kind of thing?
> 
> 
> .


Going out dancing does not mean dancing with other men. When I go out dancing with my girlfriends, I dance with my girlfriends!


----------



## Entropy3000

JCD said:


> Fixed that for you.
> 
> He doesn't know how to dance and isn't interested in learning...and he doesn't do it much.


He needs to suck it up because this is important to his wife.


----------



## JCD

Entropy3000 said:


> He needs to suck it up because this is important to his wife.


Apologies. I misunderstood your post.

I agree with you on that.


----------



## Entropy3000

JCD said:


> Is he being reasonable by not allowing her to go alone to a female friends house?
> 
> *No. Unless there is some other reason. Like that friend is toxic to the marriage. I can contrive some scenarios but I would encourage this kind of thing.*
> 
> Dancing I get. Bars, I sort of get.
> 
> *Venue matters. Hanging out at bars or clubs .. no. Going out to restaurants that have bars certainly ok as long as things stay Girls Night Out. You now what I mean.*
> 
> Not being free to visit a friend...? Really?
> 
> *Female friends would be encouraged. Visiting a guy at his apartment no. So just saying it depends. *
> 
> All we get are justifications that 'he must know something' because otherwise, those who support his stand have to concede he is unreasonable.
> 
> *I did not read it all, but he is sounding unreasonable to me.*
> 
> Why are we bending over backwards to find any excuse to find him reasonable when the easiest interpretation is he is NOT being reasonable?
> 
> *I hope I am not.*
> 
> It is entirely possible, even likely, for the husband to have reasonable AND unreasonable worries. I think he is straying into the later with the house and friend thing. And an honest man would admit that.
> 
> :iagree:


----------



## Entropy3000

JCD said:


> Apologies. I misunderstood your post.
> 
> I agree with you on that.


Yeah, I just do not get husbands who are unwilling to make this effort. Some women really love this. And guys want BJs more often


----------



## Prodigal

EleGirl said:


> I read it as you meaning that as a woman with a child she should not be going out at all.


I asked WHAT ABOUT THE CHILD. Where on God's green earth did you read it to mean I any in way intimated she should not go out at all??????????



EleGirl said:


> Since the discussion had broadened to include her husband's stance is that she should never do anything social without him.. not even lunch or shopping with a female friend *I thought you knew that that was part of the discussion.*


Folks, I'm sorry to hijack this thread, but I didn't assume SQUAT. I asked what both parents were doing together with their child and why isn't the child being addressed further? Isn't he part of the equation in GNO? After all, is dad sitting at home babysitting while mom goes out with her friends? I don't know ... I'm just trying to get some clarification about how one small child might figure into the equation.

Well, DUH, I DO realize that no lunch or shopping is one of hub's demands. 

I simply wasn't addressing that. After a number of posts, I wondered (1) if the parents were finding common ground to share time through their child, and (2) why mom was not addressing my questions regarding said child.

Again, major JEESH!!!


----------



## Entropy3000

(((HUGS)))








:rofl:

It happens.


----------



## EleGirl

Prodigal said:


> I asked WHAT ABOUT THE CHILD. Where on God's green earth did you read it to mean I any in way intimated she should not go out at all??????????
> 
> 
> 
> Folks, I'm sorry to hijack this thread, but I didn't assume SQUAT. I asked what both parents were doing together with their child and why isn't the child being addressed further? Isn't he part of the equation in GNO? After all, is dad sitting at home babysitting while mom goes out with her friends? I don't know ... I'm just trying to get some clarification about how one small child might figure into the equation.
> 
> Well, DUH, I DO realize that no lunch or shopping is one of hub's demands.
> 
> I simply wasn't addressing that. After a number of posts, I wondered (1) if the parents were finding common ground to share time through their child, and (2) why mom was not addressing my questions regarding said child.
> 
> Again, major JEESH!!!


It's reasonable to assume that parents get baby sitters so that they can go out sometimes.

But the OP is gone.. probably because as usual this thread went nuts.


----------



## The Middleman

EleGirl said:


> She said that since she is married, she does not dance with other men. She wanted to dance with her female friends.
> 
> What is wrong with dancing?


Absolutly nothing is wrong with it. Her husband just wants to be around when it happens. What's wrong with that?


----------



## JCD

The Middleman said:


> Absolutly nothing is wrong with it. Her husband just wants to be around when it happens. What's wrong with that?


Still isn't the question.


----------



## The Middleman

JCD said:


> Still isn't the question.


I thought I answered it.


----------



## The Middleman

EleGirl said:


> But the OP is gone.. probably because as usual this thread went nuts.


I don't know about that. I thought she was getting some pretty constructive advice .... although some of it might not have been what she wanted to hear. I think she was looking for: "Yes he is a controlling bastard and you should be able to do what you want to do whenever you want to do it." .... and not everyone was giving her that advice.


----------



## JCD

The Middleman said:


> I thought I answered it.


Allow me to reiterate it then.

It is a matter of personal opinion whether a woman should be in a bar alone without her husband (I am on your side with 'alone' but not on 'I'll meet you there in a bit'...but I can sympathize with that point of view)

We both agree with the 'he should make an effort to dance with his wife'. You are an intelligent man who understands that a relationship needs compromise on occasion. In this, the husband is being remiss.

The key point is, without anything else being added, i.e. toxic friend, skeevy boyfriend of wife's girlfriend, etc., *should the wife be allowed to have female friends and be able to visit their homes?* (I am also on your side with having male friends. No in general and HELL NO to private visits)

Of COURSE he has a reason for disapproving of it. But we don't know if it's a reasonable reason or an unreasonable one. I am a man and I have met a lot of men. Most of them are pretty good. However, a goodly number of them have their...quirks. 

So I am not going to give this guy the benefit of the doubt and assume he is automatically reasonable. Because we already have on example where he is NOT being particularly wise.

Bolded is the real question.


----------



## Theseus

The Middleman said:


> Absolutly nothing is wrong with it. Her husband just wants to be around when it happens. What's wrong with that?



What's wrong with that is him insisting he *MUST* be around when it happens.


----------



## murphy5

EleGirl said:


> Again she’s not dancing with other men.
> 
> What is wrong with her asking her husband to learn to dance so he can be a good dance partner?


absolutely NOTHING wrong with her encouraging him to learn to dance. He probably does not like dancing precisely because he never learned how to, and thinks he looks like a dork doing it.

He should be really psyched to learn how to dance, because it would give his wife immediate joy, AND be a cheap date night.

But like I said before....if 50% of all women cheat...statistically....he has a 1 in 2 chance that his wife will be tempted _if she goes out dancing with the girls_. She may not intend to cheat. But at the bar, the music blasting, hot band members watching them dance, men coming up and hitting on them....unless he is physically there to do a little **** blocking....I am not sure how he would be able to sit at home and not flip out! Clearly he is not ok with it. Just as she is not ok with not dancing. They need to make an acceptable compromise where BOTH parties are satisfied.


----------



## johnnycomelately

murphy5 said:


> a
> But like I said before....if 50% of all women cheat...statistically....he has a 1 in 2 chance that his wife will be tempted _if she goes out dancing with the girls_. She may not intend to cheat. But at the bar, the music blasting, hot band members watching them dance, men coming up and hitting on them....unless he is physically there to do a little **** blocking....I am not sure how he would be able to sit at home and not flip out! Clearly he is not ok with it. Just as she is not ok with not dancing. They need to make an acceptable compromise where BOTH parties are satisfied.


Your figure of 50% is way higher than most respectable studies show:

_Many research studies attempt to estimate exactly how many people engage in infidelity, and the statistics appear reliable when studies focus on sexual intercourse, deal with heterosexual couples, and draw from large, representative, national samples. From the 1994 General Social Survey of 884 men and 1288 women, 78% of men and 88% of women denied ever having extramarital (EM) sex (Wiederman, 1997). The 1991-1996 General Social Surveys report similar data; in those years 13% of respondents admitted to having had EM sex (Atkins, Baucom, & Jacobson, 2001).

The Kinsey Reports asserted that about one half of men and a quarter of women had committed adultery (Greely, 1991). The Janus Report on Sexual Behavior in America also reported that one third of married men and a quarter of women have had an extramarital affair (Greeley, 1991)._

Infidelity stats are problematic, but 50% is out of the ball park, especially for women. It is widely accepted that more men than women cheat. Besides that the above stats refer to cheating at least once_ during the life of the marriage_, not on any given night in a bar. Plus it is well known that most affairs occur at work, so in fact the chances of a married woman cheating on a night out in a bar are small.


----------



## jaquen

JCD said:


> Well, the gents seem to be talking about a 'slippery slope' argument about a GNO/bar thing.
> 
> Thing is, when you are on a roof, there are TWO slopes (unless you are talking about a Frank Lloyd Wright house)
> 
> So let's look at the other slope:
> 
> Of course we can't let her go to a bar ALONE, that is WAY too dangerous, because my friend's cousins gf kissed some guy one.
> 
> And we can't let her dance with girls, because that will turn some guys on...and than said guys will hit on her and because said guys hit on her, she will, of course, submit. You know...because women are like that. If some guy hits on her, she'll be tempted...and probably do it.
> 
> So...we keep her out of clubs. BUT...OTHER women are ALSO a bad influence! We can't know how skanky her friends are (after all, they are loose enough to actually want to leave the house and have fun at (shudder) a BAR) So of course she can't go to her FRIENDS house. There might be men there! Or she might talk to these loose bar going wimmins.
> 
> So she should stay home!
> 
> But...a man has to work! And the problem is...a house has DOORS...so ANYONE can come in...like men or loose bar going wimmins.
> 
> Better she only makes friends with HIS family. HER family might be filled with loose bar going wimmins or at least make up lies if she meets other men.
> 
> And work...you know who are at work? MEN and loose bar going wimmins!
> 
> Better she get a job only with women...but...
> 
> So better she stay at home.
> 
> and we might as well put a burka on her too!


This is the most beautiful thing I've read on this topic here on TAM.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

murphy5 said:


> But at the bar, the music blasting, hot band members watching them dance, men coming up and hitting on them....unless he is physically there to do a little **** blocking.


I hate to be the bearer of bad news but women do have the ability to say no. Millions of us manage to do it without our husbands saying it for us. I know, weird huh? If your premise is that alcohol and music makes women lose all rational thought, then wouldn't the same be said for men? Wives should accompany their husbands to these places because statistically they are even more likely to cheat. Or, you could put a little faith and trust in the person you married. If that is impossible, then perhaps the bar isn't the issue at all.


----------



## naiveonedave

JCL - I disagree that women don't cheat as much as men. Outside of prostitution, there has to be someone to cheat with. Maybe men cheat more, but it has to be much closer than people think. Also, the 50% figure is probably much closer to reality than the studies you report. There are other studies that put infidelity much closer to 50%

It comes down to this, why take the risk? If you deny the risk of drinking and dancing at clubs, I think you are crazy.

I think this goes both ways, by the way. Married men should not be clubbing w/o their wives as well. The problem is that the blind trust, statistically, is not very valid.


----------



## jaquen

Theseus said:


> Sure sounds like prison for both of you. If that works in your marriages, then it's fine for you. It certainly won't work with most people I know.
> 
> Middleman, even if he thinks he has a reason, that's his problem. He's her husband, not her father. He can't dedicate the rest of his life monitoring her actions. The OP is an adult.
> 
> Maybe some people here are posting from Saudi Arabia where women can't control their hormones, and have to be covered head to toe and escorted everywhere by a male relative, otherwise they would certainly cheat?
> 
> It's perfectly normal and healthy to go out from time to time without your spouse, even to clubs. Like anything else in life: drinking, suntanning, bungee jumping, it's fine if it's done in moderation and doesn't take the place of your spouse.


Yeah, I should be use to the prison-state marriages I see sometimes here on TAM, but somehow it continues to floor me.

I literally have _never _seen anything like this in real life.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

naiveonedave said:


> JCL - I disagree that women don't cheat as much as men. Outside of prostitution, there has to be someone to cheat with.


Married men with single women. 
Married men with other men.

Both scenarios would explain why the statistic for men being unfaithful is higher.


----------



## johnnycomelately

naiveonedave said:


> JCL - I disagree that women don't cheat as much as men. Outside of prostitution, there has to be someone to cheat with. Maybe men cheat more, but it has to be much closer than people think. Also, the 50% figure is probably much closer to reality than the studies you report. There are other studies that put infidelity much closer to 50%
> 
> It comes down to this, why take the risk? If you deny the risk of drinking and dancing at clubs, I think you are crazy.


The average unfaithful woman cheats with 3.6 men. The average unfaithful man cheats with 1.6 women. That is where the differential comes in. Every credible study I have seen has stated that more men cheat than women. 

You may feel that the numbers are higher, but it is reasonable to believe peer-reviewed statistical studies versus gut feel.


----------



## JCD

murphy5 said:


> absolutely NOTHING wrong with her encouraging him to learn to dance. He probably does not like dancing precisely because he never learned how to, and thinks he looks like a dork doing it.
> 
> He should be really psyched to learn how to dance, because it would give his wife immediate joy, AND be a cheap date night.
> 
> But like I said before....if 50% of all women cheat...statistically....he has a 1 in 2 chance that his wife will be tempted _if she goes out dancing with the girls_. She may not intend to cheat. But at the bar, the music blasting, hot band members watching them dance, men coming up and hitting on them....unless he is physically there to do a little **** blocking....I am not sure how he would be able to sit at home and not flip out! Clearly he is not ok with it. Just as she is not ok with not dancing. They need to make an acceptable compromise where BOTH parties are satisfied.


You know what? I am physically tempted at least three times a week. I work with a lot of hot and young girls. I take business trips overseas where my wallet suddenly fattens up and the women are JUST DANDY to spend time with a foreigner who will show them a good...or even okay time.

And my wife isn't there to c*nt block for me. How, oh HOW do I avoid submitting to temptation WITHOUT having my wife there to watch me every second?

The same way I trust SHE is avoiding temptation when I am away. Love, respect, fear of loss and a sense of consequences...just the way a lot of couples do it the same way.


----------



## JCD

johnnycomelately said:


> The average unfaithful woman cheats with 3.6 men. The average unfaithful man cheats with 1.6 women. That is where the differential comes in. Every credible study I have seen has stated that more men cheat than women.
> 
> You may feel that the numbers are higher, but it is reasonable to believe peer-reviewed statistical studies versus gut feel.


My gut feelings says you might have misremembered the numbers or maybe switched them around by accident. Because the cheating men I know certainly had more than one affair/ONS partner. Every single one.

But most of the women I know who did that only had one...

Granted this is anecdote. How sure are you on those numbers?


----------



## jaquen

murphy5;10159449But like I said before....if 50% of all women cheat...statistically....he has a 1 in 2 chance that his wife will be tempted [I said:


> if she goes out dancing with the girls[/I].


You got some evidence to back up that 50% of women cheat assertion?

Meanwhile every statistic I've seen on this topic supports the idea that the majority of people cheat with someone they know, and are acquainted with in an pre-existing social or work situation. 

Also, again, the internet is on the rise as a means to meet people for hook ups.

I think anyone who believes that clubs and bars are the largest danger to their marriage is living in a fantasy world. Perhaps it's best that you work from home, avoid all social, cultural and religious outlets and disconnect from the internet.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

jaquen said:


> Yeah, I should be use to the prison-state marriages I see sometimes here on TAM, but somehow it continues to floor me.
> 
> I literally have _never _seen anything like this in real life.


That's because you are in New York, not Tehran.


----------



## johnnycomelately

JCD said:


> My gut feelings says you might have misremembered the numbers or maybe switched them around by accident. Because the cheating men I know certainly had more than one affair/ONS partner. Every single one.


Yes. 1.6 on average. That is more than one. 

We all know that women find it much easier to get laid than men. Once the decision is made to be unfaithful it is easier for women to find sexual partners. The consensus of professionals, statistical studies and anecdotal evidence is that more women cheat than men. 

On TAM the majority of posters in CWI are men, but that is a self-selecting group. 

Recent studies do show that the percentage of women cheating is growing, but they still lag the men.


----------



## johnnycomelately

jaquen said:


> I think anyone who believes that clubs and bars are the largest danger to their marriage is living in a fantasy world. Perhaps it's best that you work from home, avoid all social, cultural and religious outlets and disconnect from the internet.


Good idea and make all women wear burkas and stone a couple for good measure. 

Part of the problem is that when you spend a lot of time on TAM you start to see the situations members post about as the norm. In reality most people don't cheat and less women do so than men.


----------



## Entropy3000

johnnycomelately said:


> The average unfaithful woman cheats with 3.6 men. The average unfaithful man cheats with 1.6 women. That is where the differential comes in. Every credible study I have seen has stated that more men cheat than women.
> 
> You may feel that the numbers are higher, but it is reasonable to believe peer-reviewed statistical studies versus gut feel.


Hmmm. So that says that most men who cheat will cheat with just one woman ... interesting.

That makes me think that men cheat for emotional reasons or dare I say they are at least focused with one woman in mind. Huh!?

It may also mean that once a woman cheats she is able to rationalize having multiple affairs / partners.

Another thread.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Entropy3000 said:


> Hmmm. So that says that most men who cheat will cheat with just one woman ... interesting.
> 
> That makes me think that men cheat for emotional reasons or dare I say they are at least focused with one woman in mind. Huh!?
> 
> It may also mean that once a woman cheats she is able to rationalize having multiple affairs / partners.
> 
> Another thread.


Well, 1.6. I think the difference is more to do with opportunity.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

johnnycomelately said:


> Yes. 1.6 on average. That is more than one.
> 
> We all know that women find it much easier to get laid than men. Once the decision is made to be unfaithful it is easier for women to find sexual partners. The consensus of professionals, statistical studies and anecdotal evidence is that more women cheat than men.
> 
> On TAM the majority of posters in CWI are men, but that is a self-selecting group.
> 
> Recent studies do show that the percentage of women cheating is growing, but they still lag the men.


I have a theory about why there are more men posting in CWI. Men tend to be more guarded about divulging their marital issues with friends/family. An anonymous place like CWI is excellent for support and advice, without having to involve real life people. Women as a whole feel more comfortable confiding in their friends and would be more likely to use them, rather than advice from strangers. Just my thoughts, right or wrong.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I have a theory about why there are more men posting in CWI. Men tend to be more guarded about divulging their marital issues with friends/family. An anonymous place like CWI is excellent for support and advice, without having to involve real life people. Women as a whole feel more comfortable confiding in their friends and would be more likely to use them, rather than advice from strangers. Just my thoughts, right or wrong.


I agree. I think that men find it more difficult to admit that their wives have been unfaithful than vice versa.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

johnnycomelately said:


> I agree. I think that men find it more difficult to admit that their wives have been unfaithful than vice versa.


That stigma will continue to exist as long as the mentality is that the husband has to [email protected] block any man in the vicinity of his wife. Failure to do so means she will cheat and thus the onus is on him for the infidelity. Or, you know, we could view women as having free will and put the blame where it belongs.


----------



## EleGirl

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Married men with single women.
> Married men with other men.
> 
> Both scenarios would explain why the statistic for men being unfaithful is higher.


You forgot married men with prostitutes and call girls. This is something not readily available to women.


----------



## vellocet

Theseus said:


> It's perfectly normal and healthy to go out from time to time without your spouse, even to clubs.


There is a reason to go to clubs without one's significant other. Yes, dancing is the reason always given.

So lets pose this:

Say a wife and her friends want to go out and whoop it up.
They have two choices. 

1) Nightclub where only women are allowed in so they can "just dance" I realize this scenario isn't probably an option, but lets just pretend.

2) Nightclub where men and women go.

Which one do you think they will choose, and why?


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

EleGirl said:


> You forgot married men with prostitutes and call girls. This is something not readily available to women.


NaiveDave already said excluding prostitution, so I didn't include that in my response.


----------



## norajane

vellocet said:


> There is a reason to go to clubs without one's significant other. Yes, dancing is the reason always given.
> 
> So lets pose this:
> 
> Say a wife and her friends want to go out and whoop it up.
> They have two choices.
> 
> 1) Nightclub where only women are allowed in so they can "just dance" I realize this scenario isn't probably an option, but lets just pretend.
> 
> 2) Nightclub where men and women go.
> 
> Which one do you think they will choose, and why?


Back in my club-dancing days, we loved going to a couple of gay clubs, and this one lesbian club, because they always played the best dance music...good times.


----------



## Entropy3000

johnnycomelately said:


> Well, 1.6. I think the difference is more to do with opportunity.


That supports what I am saying. If this was more about emotional then I think that would tend to be with fewer partners. Unless one satisfy emotional needs with a ONS. I can see that argument but that argument is far more shallow.

I totally get that an average woman looking for a hookup has more opportunity. I also get that a vulnerable wife can have many waiting suitors awaiting a weak moment. That does exist in reverse of course.

But I wonder.


----------



## Entropy3000

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I have a theory about why there are more men posting in CWI. Men tend to be more guarded about divulging their marital issues with friends/family. An anonymous place like CWI is excellent for support and advice, without having to involve real life people. Women as a whole feel more comfortable confiding in their friends and would be more likely to use them, rather than advice from strangers. Just my thoughts, right or wrong.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

I also think there are some number of trolls / hotwife stories.

But in general I think this IS the answer.


----------



## vellocet

norajane said:


> Back in my club-dancing days, we loved going to a couple of gay clubs, and this one lesbian club, because they always played the best dance music...good times.


That wasn't one of the options


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

vellocet said:


> There is a reason to go to clubs without one's significant other. Yes, dancing is the reason always given.
> 
> So lets pose this:
> 
> Say a wife and her friends want to go out and whoop it up.
> They have two choices.
> 
> 1) Nightclub where only women are allowed in so they can "just dance" I realize this scenario isn't probably an option, but lets just pretend.
> 
> 2) Nightclub where men and women go.
> 
> Which one do you think they will choose, and why?


I'd chose #1 because frankly I don't like being leered at. Now then, which type of place would married men chose? A bar for men only, run by men, barring all women? Why? What about gyms?


----------



## Entropy3000

EleGirl said:


> You forgot married men with prostitutes and call girls. This is something not readily available to women.


Yes but a woman can go to a bar or a club or to the internet now if they are looking for more no strings attached sex. They each have their own risks. 

Vegas works for both genders it seems.


----------



## naiveonedave

With regard to statistics, we have to agree to disagree. But "if" only 20% of females will cheat, still doesn't make the don't go drinking/dancing/clubbing argument any less valid. Why put yourself into a temptation zone, willingly. Especially when drinking and physical contact with opposite sex people is pretty much expected?

To be honest, when I type this, I find it to be pretty disrespectful of the spouse, just by going.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Entropy3000 said:


> That supports what I am saying. If this was more about emotional then I think that would tend to be with fewer partners. Unless one satisfy emotional needs with a ONS. I can see that argument but that argument is far more shallow.
> 
> I totally get that an average woman looking for a hookup has more opportunity. I also get that a vulnerable wife can have many waiting suitors awaiting a weak moment. That does exist in reverse of course.
> 
> But I wonder.


Yes, I wonder too. The conventional wisdom is that men are just looking for sex and women for love, but conventional wisdom isn't always so wise.

But I also think that if women were as up for NSA sex as much as men we would be at it like Bonobos.


----------



## DoF

I don't know about other regions but around here Club/Bar is a place for people to get drunk/do drugs and hook up.

Dance crap is just weird to me. I don't dance, but if someone really enjoys dancing what's stopping them from putting some music on in the living room and dancing away?

If sound system quality is an issue, home theater equipment is DIRT cheap.

In general, Bar and Club are probably THE worst places for anyone that's in a relationship. Full of intoxicated, inconsiderate and not exactly the brightest people on the planet.

If I was to think of the worst possible place to go to, bar/club would probably be on top of that list. EVEN IF I WAS SINGLE.

I simply refuse to surround myself with people on drugs/drunks and "party" types. I don't like them.

But I'm more of a "stay at home"/relax type.


----------



## jaquen

naiveonedave said:


> With regard to statistics, we have to agree to disagree. But "if" only 20% of females will cheat, still doesn't make the don't go drinking/dancing/clubbing argument any less valid. Why put yourself into a temptation zone, willingly. Especially when drinking and physical contact with opposite sex people is pretty much expected?
> 
> To be honest, when I type this, I find it to be pretty disrespectful of the spouse, just by going.


Work is one of the most common "temptations zones".

So, again, should spouses not go to work?


----------



## vellocet

Therealbrighteyes said:


> I'd chose #1 because frankly I don't like being leered at. Now then, which type of place would married men chose? A bar for men only, run by men, barring all women? Why? What about gyms?


If I would end up going to a bar as a taken man, and if there were such a bar that isn't a gay bar, I'd go there. I know a couple of places, holes in the wall, where almost only men go to watch a game, have some c0cktails, then go home. I'm there to watch a game and converse with friends, not mingle with the opposite sex or grind against another woman.

Then again, if I'm in a committed relationship, I don't go to bars, and if I do, she would more than likely be with me.

Gyms? Those aren't meant for socializing, although it obviously happens. Those are meant to go, work out, come home. Not dance the night away inebriated and mingle with the opposite sex.


----------



## naiveonedave

To me it is relative risk, you spend 40 hours a week at work, that on average is some risk of EA (which can lead to PA), less risk of a PA, but not zero. Drunk/Dancing/Clubbing is a few hours a week, but the risk is higher due to the atmosphere, booze, peer pressure, etc. IMO 1 GNO/week is more temptation than work.

I get that you can't control your spouse, but why allow more temptation than you have to?


----------



## naiveonedave

Also, with the supposed increasing rate of female infedilty, I think the job situation is tough on marriages.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

vellocet said:


> If I would end up going to a bar as a taken man, and if there were such a bar that isn't a gay bar, I'd go there. I know a couple of places, holes in the wall, where almost only men go to watch a game, have some c0cktails, then go home. I'm there to watch a game and converse with friends, not mingle with the opposite sex or grind against another woman.
> 
> Then again, if I'm in a committed relationship, I don't go to bars, and if I do, she would more than likely be with me.
> 
> Gyms? Those aren't meant for socializing, although it obviously happens. Those are meant to go, work out, come home. Not dance the night away inebriated and mingle with the opposite sex.


You are making the assumption that the only reason a woman would go out with her girlfriends to dance is to mingle with men. I am not and neither are my friends. You say that you would not go to a bar for any other reason than to hang out with your friends, yet seem incapable of believing a woman would have the same reasons. Why is that?


----------



## johnnycomelately

naiveonedave said:


> I get that you can't control your spouse, but why allow more temptation than you have to?


'Allow'?


----------



## manfromlamancha

Jeez! I can see what EleGirl meant by this thread going nuts!!!


----------



## naiveonedave

Johnny - going to GNOs at a club is allowing men on the prowl to hit on you. It is inviting men to buy you drinks, try to dance with you (physical contact), etc. You are invitiing temptation.


----------



## DoF

jaquen said:


> Work is one of the most common "temptations zones".
> 
> So, again, should spouses not go to work?


Work is a MUST/NEED

Club is a WANT

Big difference.


----------



## vellocet

Therealbrighteyes said:


> You are making the assumption that the only reason a woman would go out with her girlfriends to dance is to mingle with men. I am not and neither are my friends. You say that you would not go to a bar for any other reason than to hang out with your friends, yet seem incapable of believing a woman would have the same reasons. Why is that?


There is a difference between clubbing and going to a bar. Going to a bar, whether a man or woman, can simply involve having a couple drinks, talking amongst their group at a table, etc.

Whereas a club, lets not pretend here, the main reason for clubbing is "dancing" AND attention. While most will say they just want to go and dance, they are lying if they say another reason would be for attention.


----------



## JCD

DoF said:


> Work is a MUST/NEED
> 
> Club is a WANT
> 
> Big difference.


Computers are a want too. So is Facebook.

See...at a certain point, you got to learn to trust.


----------



## JCD

vellocet said:


> There is a difference between clubbing and going to a bar. Going to a bar, whether a man or woman, can simply involve having a couple drinks, talking amongst their group at a table, etc.
> 
> Whereas a club, lets not pretend here, the main reason for clubbing is "dancing" AND attention. While most will say they just want to go and dance, they are lying if they say another reason would be for attention.


BS. And I say this respectfully because we have agreed on a lot of different things in the past.

I have been to many places which are as marriage UN friendly as it is possible to be and even dead drunk, I didn't cheat despite the temptations.

It comes down to the person. And if all it takes is a grind in a club to make someone cheat, there wouldn't be a point to even bother having marriage, the divorce rate would be so high.


----------



## johnnycomelately

naiveonedave said:


> Johnny - going to GNOs at a club is allowing men on the prowl to hit on you. It is inviting men to buy you drinks, try to dance with you (physical contact), etc. You are invitiing temptation.


The logical result of what you are proposing is a regression to iron-age subjugation of women. No showing of hair, legs or arms, no going out without a male family member, no working etc. It is a paranoid and insecure world. I would rather trust my wife and risk the implosion of my marriage than live like that. 

I wouldn't tolerate my wife controlling my life to that degree and wouldn't expect her to tolerate me doing it.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

vellocet said:


> There is a difference between clubbing and going to a bar. Going to a bar, whether a man or woman, can simply involve having a couple drinks, talking amongst their group at a table, etc.
> 
> Whereas a club, lets not pretend here, the main reason for clubbing is "dancing" AND attention. While most will say they just want to go and dance, they are lying if they say another reason would be for attention.


Interesting. Well everything could be accomplished by sitting at home and drinking. No need to go to a bar at all.


----------



## vellocet

JCD said:


> BS. And I say this respectfully because we have agreed on a lot of different things in the past.


Just as a note, saying BS is not saying it respectfully. I know full well my level of respect when I tell someone bullshyte. 



> I have been to many places which are as marriage UN friendly as it is possible to be and even dead drunk, I didn't cheat despite the temptations.


I'm not saying cheating is going to absolutely happen. There are simply environments that are more conducive to it, people know this, and that's why they go. Not in all cases, but in a majority I believe.




> It comes down to the person. And if all it takes is a grind in a club to make someone cheat, there wouldn't be a point to even bother having marriage, the divorce rate would be so high.


To me grinding IS cheating, at the very least a complete and total disrespect of one's spouse. Unless that spouse is ok with their wife/husband simulating sex on the dancefloor with someone else, then its all good :smthumbup:


----------



## vellocet

Therealbrighteyes said:


> Interesting. Well everything could be accomplished by sitting at home and drinking. No need to go to a bar at all.


Works for me. Like I said, when I'm in a committed relationship, I don't go to them unless she is with me.

But I can go to them all I want, as I doubt I'll ever be in a committed relationship ever again


----------



## naiveonedave

Johnny - totally disagree. One, it works both ways, married men should not be clubbing either.

It is a risk proposition. The more of these events that happen, the higher the risk. ONS affairs happen that aren't planned all the time. What is the best defense? Minimize the opportunity.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

vellocet said:


> Works for me. Like I said, when I'm in a committed relationship, I don't go to them unless she is with me.


That's great and it works for you. What works for me and my relationship is different. I wish he would come with me but that has never happened, so we found a solution.


----------



## vellocet

Therealbrighteyes said:


> That's great and it works for you. What works for me and my relationship is different. I wish he would come with me but that has never happened, *so we found a solution*.


Which was what?


----------



## The Middleman

Theseus said:


> What's wrong with that is him insisting he *MUST* be around when it happens.


Then let's agree to disagree on this. I think it is his prerogative to insist on it if he feels that strongly about it. It's also her prerogative to do it anyway and tell him to go screw himself. In both cases, they are putting the marriage at risk. In general, I side with the husband on insisting that he *MUST* be around when it happens.


----------



## alonetogether8

wif3y said:


> Hi everyone I am a newbie here! Well I am here for advice. First of all a little info about my marriage. Hubby and I married in June 18, 2011 we are a young couple, I am 22 and he is 26. Ok so enough of background info and straight to the problem. Well right now I am very upset my girlfriends decide to have a girls night out and I knowing how my husband is (he doesn't like to let me go out unless he goes) I told the girls I would go and that I would bring my husband so girls were totally fine with it. I text husband if we can go and he reply's yes that he gets off work at 9:30pm. I get home and was able to catch him before he leaves to work so I tell him the plan is for me to go with my friend ****** at 8:00pm to the club and that he would meet us there when he is off work. Well same as usual he throws a fit saying why don't I wait for him to go? I told him we are trying to get free coverage and that way I have at least an hour and a half of girl time. He doesn't like my responds he states that we are married and married couples don't do that and of course by this time I just give up I told him fine that I don't want to go, basically here I am venting and trying to get advice makes me wonder maybe I am wrong now that I am married I have to live this sad life I don't want to say I am entirely unhappy but, I do feel like I am kept in a cage, there is so much to live and be happy and what better way to share this than the one person you love. I don't know I guess my question to you is what advice do you give me in this situation? And is a girls/boys night out acceptable in marriage? By the way I love dancing it's a hobby and I feel like ever since I married him I don't dance! Any help would be greatly appreciated!


 It is perfectly ok for you to be able to go out with friends and him not be there! For him to expect you to give up your friends is ridiculous.

It sounds to me like he doesn't trust you. Have you given him reason not to? 

If it's a trust thing, I would just tell him he has nothing to worry about, but you are going to go out with friends. 

If we were having a girl's night and my friend wanted her husband to always come, I would hate that! I don't know many men who want to hang out with their wives friends all the time, unless it's a group thing. 

Encourage him to hang out with his friends when you see yours.

I have a friend whose husband texts and calls her constantly when we're together and it's so annoying. She is with him every night, so I don't know why he can't just leave her alone sometimes.


----------



## The Middleman

JCD said:


> We both agree with the 'he should make an effort to dance with his wife'. You are an intelligent man who understands that a relationship needs compromise on occasion. In this, the husband is being remiss.


Absolutely, that's his responsibility as a husband



JCD said:


> The key point is, without anything else being added, i.e. toxic friend, skeevy boyfriend of wife's girlfriend, etc., *should the wife be allowed to have female friends and be able to visit their homes?* (I am also on your side with having male friends. No in general and HELL NO to private visits)


Forgoing toxic friends, it is not normal for him to insist that she not have _female_ friends and be able to visit their homes. I though I was clear on that from previous postings. I though that was strange.


----------



## JCD

vellocet said:


> Just as a note, saying BS is not saying it respectfully. I know full well my level of respect when I tell someone bullshyte.


Allow me to correct it then.

'I believe what you are saying is empirically and self evidentially false by even a brief examining of the facts, and I wish to convey it to you in a slightly vulgar but companionable way.'

See what happens when you try to save a few letters? 

And I tell (male) friends and comrades BS to their faces quite often without offense given or taken.

Now if you'll excuse me, I shall brush up on my Emily Post...


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

vellocet said:


> Which was what?


My married friends and I go to a club about once or twice a year, I usually wear nice jeans and a blouse, dance with each other, buy our own drinks or don't drink at all (makes me tired) and come home at a reasonable hour. Again, he is free to join me at any time.


----------



## DoF

Notice thread title says "girls and boys".....and that's just it, it would be completely acceptable for boys and girls to do this and label it as such.

Men and Women? I don't think so.


----------



## vellocet

alonetogether8 said:


> It is perfectly ok for you to be able to go out with friends and him not be there! For him to expect you to give up your friends is ridiculous.


I absolutely agree. As I've said, its the nature of these nights out. If one is going to go out and party and act single, why the hell even bother being married?

I would never go "clubbing" in a committed relationship. To me, that's what single people do, and for good reason.

My nights out with the guys would include going over to a bud's place watching a game, poker night, a casino, a sporting event. Not somewhere that the main premise is to pick someone up or pretend to have sex with them on the dancefloor.

Not sure, but perhaps wif3y's husband doesn't mind her doing things that are more appropriate for single women. Perhaps he has no problem with her going shopping, to the movies, dinner, etc. Sounds like he may have a problem with "clubbing", which I can't say I blame him. I don't care what anyone says, there is a main reason to go clubbing and it isn't "just to dance amongst friends"(although that can be a secondary reason, again, IMO only)




> If it's a trust thing, I would just tell him he has nothing to worry about, but you are going to go out with friends.


Again, if I was with someone who wanted to go out with friends, I encourage it. If they want to go to meat markets and don't care how I feel about it, then she can suck it up if I go with the guys to Vegas or bike week at Daytona.


----------



## vellocet

DoF said:


> Notice thread title says "girls and boys".....and that's just it, it would be completely acceptable for boys and girls to do this and label it as such.
> 
> Men and Women? I don't think so.


Exactly. When you become married, you put away the single life. Want to act single, then be single.


----------



## vellocet

Therealbrighteyes said:


> My married friends and I go to a club about once or twice a year, I usually wear nice jeans and a blouse, dance with each other, buy our own drinks or don't drink at all (makes me tired) and come home at a reasonable hour. Again, he is free to join me at any time.


And that sounds reasonable. You took a situation in which your husband may, or maybe not, be comfortable with and set some limits.

The "home at a reasonable hour", IMO, definitely would help. But because you are home at a reasonable hour and buy your own drinks and, I'm assuming, make sure you dance only within the friend circle, by doing so you acknowledge that safeguards like this need to be in place due to the nature of the night out. As opposed to, for example, going to the movies or something.

It works for you and your man is ok with that. But you still had to safeguard yourself with a risky form of GNO. But kudos because you safeguarded yourself nonetheless.:smthumbup:


----------



## jaquen

There is no point in me being married without trust.

TAM teaches me that trust isn't that important of a component in some people's marriages.

I don't get it, but hey, as long as folks are truly happy. Problem is that I'm not sure how many of the people in the more strict marriages are truly happy. Most of the ones I've encountered here don't seem to talk very joyfully about being married (Entropy3000 being a notable exception).


----------



## naiveonedave

Blind trust is not realistic, too much out there....

I don't see this as strict, just common sense.


----------



## vellocet

naiveonedave said:


> Blind trust is not realistic, too much out there....
> 
> I don't see this as strict, just common sense.


I also don't see it as strict to expect your spouse to act like a spouse and not a single party hound.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

vellocet said:


> And that sounds reasonable. You took a situation in which your husband may, or maybe not, be comfortable with and set some limits.
> 
> The "home at a reasonable hour", IMO, definitely would help. But because you are home at a reasonable hour and buy your own drinks and, I'm assuming, make sure you dance only within the friend circle, by doing so you acknowledge that safeguards like this need to be in place due to the nature of the night out. As opposed to, for example, going to the movies or something.
> 
> It works for you and your man is ok with that. But you still had to safeguard yourself with a risky form of GNO. But kudos because you safeguarded yourself nonetheless.:smthumbup:


I never said safeguards shouldn't be in place.....for this or any actively really. I was disputing what so many here were saying that the only reason a married woman would go out like this was to cheat.


----------



## jaquen

naiveonedave said:


> Blind trust is not realistic, too much out there....
> 
> I don't see this as strict, just common sense.


I wouldn't be married to somebody I couldn't blindly trust. And I wouldn't want to be married to someone who didn't have the exact same trust in me. Trust is a very close second to love in our marriage. 

I'll take the risk of being hurt in the end; life is ever tainted by the potential of great pain. But the anguish of forging a life with somebody I don't fully trust isn't worth it. I'd divorce my wife, my soulmate, whom I've known for 20 years since I was little more than a boy, and have loved since I was 19 years old, if ever a day arrived where the trust between us was breached and I, or she, couldn't make our way back to that blind trust.

I don't do parent-spouse relationships. I'm not interested in "c0ck blocking" for my grown, adult wife. It's not my job, duty, responsibility, or calling to keep my wife away from the natural temptations of life. 

What you, and some of the people here, consider "marriage" isn't my idea of it. That's just what it comes down to me. I have less than zero interest in a "trust but verify" marriage.

Other people's mileage obviously varies.


----------



## JCD

vellocet said:


> Exactly. When you become married, you put away the single life. Want to act single, then be single.


Let's be clear here. The wife is going with some friends who are probably also around 22. Most of them will be single and as such, THEY would like a bit of multi tasking. See their friends AND maybe see if there is someone interesting out there. Don't put this all on the OP.

To be companionable to the needs of her friends, she is willing to go with them. And she wants to dance, so she has a motive to be there besides 'dance and cheat'. It's 'dance and talk to my friends...and laugh at their stupidity with men'

I have had to join friends in social occasions in bars, clubs and less savory places myself (generally to be the designated sensible person)


----------



## Mr. Nail

johnnycomelately said:


> The logical result of what you are proposing is a regression to iron-age subjugation of women. No showing of hair, legs or arms, no going out without a male family member, no working etc. It is a paranoid and insecure world. I would rather trust my wife and risk the implosion of my marriage than live like that.
> 
> I wouldn't tolerate my wife controlling my life to that degree and wouldn't expect her to tolerate me doing it.


This is pointing in the right direction. Trusting your partner rather than controlling. Now my wife of 27 years has established boundaries that I can trust her to maintain on her own, at work, online or should she have a girls weekend in Vegas. That is great for me. Sure there is a risk, sure she might slip. At this point with her track record I could accept girls weekend. I worry more about a group man bash than a fling. 

On the other hand when I was the age of our OP, I would not have gone to that venue. full stop. And I think her husband is being too controlling. But they are both young and prone to make a few mistakes. 
MN


----------



## naiveonedave

jaquen - women actually really want a man who c*ckbl*cks, when appropriate. They may not tell you that, but they do. What they don't like is men who submit to their ever increasing boundaries (aka nice guys). Anyway, we can agree to disagree....


----------



## norajane

naiveonedave said:


> jaquen - women actually really want a man who c*ckbl*cks, when appropriate. They may not tell you that, but they do. What they don't like is men who submit to their ever increasing boundaries (aka nice guys). Anyway, we can agree to disagree....


Oh, please. What we like are men who are confident in themselves and their relationships with us so they don't try to control our every interaction with others out of fear. And we like men to nurture our relationships by encouraging us to have interests, friends, and full lives instead of locking us in the house.


----------



## jaquen

naiveonedave said:


> jaquen - women actually really want a man who c*ckbl*cks, when appropriate. They may not tell you that, but they do. What they don't like is men who submit to their ever increasing boundaries (aka nice guys). Anyway, we can agree to disagree....


Dude, trust me, you really don't need to tell me what "women actually really want" or start the lecture about being a "nice guy".

I can't speak for you, but those aren't issues in my marriage. At all.


----------



## Therealbrighteyes

naiveonedave said:


> jaquen - women actually really want a man who c*ckbl*cks, when appropriate. They may not tell you that, but they do. What they don't like is men who submit to their ever increasing boundaries (aka nice guys). Anyway, we can agree to disagree....


You should add "some" women in that incredibly broad statement you just made.


----------



## jaquen

On the issue of trust, there needs to be some clarity thrown in the mix.

Trust isn't "My wife is having drunken GNO twice a week and I just trust that she'll never run into any problems".

Trust, IMO, is that my wife will strike a balance between going out with her friends, while not neglecting us or getting herself involved in nefarious situations that are tempting and dangerous to our marriage.

I don't need to finger wag at my wife and, like some crybaby, whine about her behavior. It's HER job to know what's appropriate for me, her, and our marriage. We know one another's desires, wishes and boundaries, and we expect the other to take that into account without policing. 

I expect my wife, like an adult who made vows, to regulate her own behavior. If she loves me, and wants to be with me, she'll prioritize the time and act accordingly when she's out.

If such a time comes when that stops, and she begins conducting her life like a fully single woman THAT is the problem. Not the scapegoated GNO.


----------



## naiveonedave

jaquen - that is not blind trust. You likely have more trust than I do, probably for valid reasons. The OP pretty much wants to party with friends and the OPH is not happy with that. He is not where you are, each marriage is somewhat different....


----------



## norajane

naiveonedave said:


> jaquen - that is not blind trust. You likely have more trust than I do, probably for valid reasons. The OP pretty much wants to party with friends and the OPH is not happy with that. He is not where you are, each marriage is somewhat different....


The OP's husband doesn't want her to have any friends since he has said he doesn't understand why people even have friends and has none of his own. 

I think that's a different kettle of fish than a GNO, especially a GNO where he was explicitly invited to attend along with them. He refused to even let her meet her friends at the club before he got there, so she offered to meet her friends at her friend's house until he arrived, and he said no to that, too.

Is anyone even reading what the OP posted, or is this thread just a convenient vehicle to b*tch about women wanting lives and friends outside the house?


----------



## jaquen

naiveonedave said:


> jaquen - that is not blind trust. You likely have more trust than I do, probably for valid reasons. The OP pretty much wants to party with friends and the OPH is not happy with that. He is not where you are, each marriage is somewhat different....


What, then, is your definition of blind trust?



naiveonedave said:


> You likely have more trust than I do, probably for valid reasons. The OP pretty much wants to party with friends and the OPH is not happy with that. He is not where you are, each marriage is somewhat different....


Every marriage is different. I've said that all along. Your idea of a healthy marriage is likely different than mine in some key ways.

But the important part here is that BOTH people in the marriage agree what the boundaries of their marriage is. This thread exists because these two people don't.

Ultimately it doesn't matter whether my wife and I trust each other implicitly, or whether you and your wife have stricter boundaries. Whether we do, or don't, allow G/BNO in our respective marriages isn't very important (despite our tangent). 

It matters that the OP and her husband don't agree on their boundaries. She needs to decide whether she wants to be married to somebody who she is feeling smothered and restrained by. 

If he can't deal with a 22 year old wife that likes to go out with her friends, and to the club to dance, perhaps he shouldn't have married one.


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## JCD

jaquen said:


> What, then, is your definition of blind trust?
> 
> 
> 
> Every marriage is somewhat different. I've said that all along. Your idea of a healthy marriage is likely different than mine in some key ways.
> 
> But the important part here is that BOTH people in the marriage agree what the boundaries of their marriage is. This thread exists because these two people don't.
> 
> Ultimately it doesn't matter whether my wife and I trust each other implicitly, or whether you and your wife have stricter boundaries. Whether we do, or don't, allow G/BNO in our respective marriages isn't very important (despite our tangent).
> 
> It matters that the OP and her husband don't agree on their boundaries. She needs to decide whether she wants to be married to somebody who she is feeling smothered and restrained by.
> 
> If he can't deal with a 22 year old wife that likes to go out with her friends, and to the club to dance, perhaps he shouldn't have married one.


Here is the problem, at least for her. She has an 8 year old child and probably needs him more than he needs her, at least financially.

I think it's petty to use that power dynamic to get ones own way all the time. Not sure if he is doing that, but hey! We're all making rash and unsubstantiated assumptions here. What's one more?


----------



## Mr. Nail

norajane said:


> Oh, please. What we like are men who are confident in themselves and their relationships with us so they don't try to control our every interaction with others out of fear. And we like men to nurture our relationships by encouraging us to have interests, friends, and full lives instead of locking us in the house.


This is another common problem among the newlywed set. They fell in love with this total person with friends and hobbies and interests, Then they try to limit this, then they suddenly find that their partner is boring and needy. Because, they made than into that. 

Outside interests and friends are part of the package you fell in love with. There is a problem though. A 22 year old newlywed is going to have a lot of single friends who like to do a lot of single activities. That's a caution area
MN


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## DoF

norajane said:


> Oh, please. What we like are men who are confident in themselves and their relationships with us so they don't try to control our every interaction with others out of fear. And we like men to nurture our relationships by encouraging us to have interests, friends, and full lives instead of locking us in the house.


It's within your control to allow a man like that to control you (or not).

I don't blame the offender, I blame the ENABLER. Without the enabler there would be no offender (well there would be, but they would remain single for LIFE).


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## Yeswecan

norajane said:


> Oh, please. What we like are men who are confident in themselves and their relationships with us so they don't try to control our every interaction with others out of fear. And we like men to nurture our relationships by encouraging us to have interests, friends, and full lives instead of locking us in the house.


Does not sound unreasonable to me.


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## BradWesley

naiveonedave said:


> jaquen - women actually really want a man who c*ckbl*cks, when appropriate. They may not tell you that, but they do. What they don't like is men who submit to their ever increasing boundaries (aka nice guys). Anyway, we can agree to disagree....


Your moniker fits you to a tee.


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## naiveonedave

dunno - did anyone actually read the 'when appropriate' in my post? Because when appropriate implies that it doesn't or shouldn't happen often. if you read my posts throughout this thread, I didn't say stay at home, no friends, etc., nor was I gender specific. I have seen the need and value of c*ckblocking.

I also think that the OP H is too controlling, but without his side of the story, it is hard for me to understand exactly what he wants and is willing to do. Many questions in this thread and one size isn't going to fit all.

To me trust and boundaries are trying to stay out of situations where you put yourself at risk, drinking/dancing/clubbing is out for GNO/BNO for me, too much risk of a drunken ONS. Brighteyes, I think, posted her GNO boundaries, looser than mine, still decent boundaries and limited frequency. Jaquen has even looser boundaries. The OP insinuated that she had even looser boundaries, based on her wild comments in her member info. All can work, depends on the person and their history. I have had GFs who abused the GNO trust, so i am more conservative. I could probably live w/Brighteyes boundaries. I could not live with what I understand the OP to want. 

feel free to flame away.....


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## EleGirl

naiveonedave said:


> jaquen - that is not blind trust. You likely have more trust than I do, probably for valid reasons. The OP pretty much wants to party with friends and the OPH is not happy with that. He is not where you are, each marriage is somewhat different....


The OP's husband will not allow her to go out to lunch with female friends, go to the mall shopping, or for her to visit female friends at their home. He insists that married people should never, ever socialize with out their spouse present. 

The entire picture of the OP's situation needs to be taken into consideration. This is not "just" about this one gno.


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## EleGirl

norajane said:


> The OP's husband doesn't want her to have any friends since he has said he doesn't understand why people even have friends and has none of his own.
> 
> I think that's a different kettle of fish than a GNO, especially a GNO where he was explicitly invited to attend along with them. He refused to even let her meet her friends at the club before he got there, so she offered to meet her friends at her friend's house until he arrived, and he said no to that, too.
> 
> Is anyone even reading what the OP posted, or is this thread just a convenient vehicle to b*tch about women wanting lives and friends outside the house?


It does seem that most people are ignore the OP's entire situation and are just posting about whatever it is they imagine that a GNO is.


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## johnnycomelately

naiveonedave said:


> dunno - did anyone actually read the 'when appropriate' in my post? Because when appropriate implies that it doesn't or shouldn't happen often. if you read my posts throughout this thread, I didn't say stay at home, no friends, etc., nor was I gender specific. I have seen the need and value of c*ckblocking.


Saying 'c*ckblocking' implies that you are talking about women. Not many women with c*cks who are going to be chasing married men in bars, perhaps the odd one, but not a statistically significant number.

I think you are being disingenuous. It is fairly obvious from your posts that you are thinking of women. Avoiding being 'gender specific' doesn't disguise your underlying misogyny.

Being insecure and paranoid are not alpha traits, if that is what you are trying to be. If you need to lay down draconian rules like some Victorian patriarch in order to stop your wife from shagging around your marriage is already over.


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## melw74

I trust my husband 100% and he trusts me, but i have to say, I would not want him to go out dancing with his mates all night... going to a pub or club.... and he would not like me doing it either..... I do have to say, I do sway to the side of it being a thing you do when your single and not when your married.....

I think there are more important things than going out partying, and also, I cant understand the need to either, I mean why do you have to go out singly.... whats wrong with your partner going??.

Why go alone?..... So for us i think the answer would be No, I do not think its acceptable in MY marriage, I am glad its not a thing my husband Likes doing, and like i say, I have no interest in it.

We do not have much chance going out,,, so when we do i like to go out with my hubby.

I do not think its controlling to express to your husband/ wife that your not happy with them going out alone for a night on the town with all your friends.....

I also find when your out you cant be left alone without having some drunken bloke chatting you up at the bar, and it does happen a lot because its happened to me.... while my husband has been in the same bar....

I cant stand it.....

I have a friend ( not married) Lives with her fellow, he goes out once a month, comes strolling it at all hours, I would hate that i think its so bloody disrespectful.... Its not something i would put up with.


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## Darkstar71

wif3y said:


> ELEGIRL: Yes that is exactly the problem he has told me that he doesn't understand why I need to have friends and the truth I feel like he feels like that because he doesn't have that much friends and doesn't really like to socialize he is more of a calmer guy but, he can be talkative. So he doesn't go out. I've told him too many times that he works too much and that he should go out. I just feel like he would be less stressed if he takes time for himself as would I but, that never happens.


Unless you and your husband make some big changes, I doubt this marriage is going to last. 

Your husband should not ever have a problem with you having friends. That he does means he is very insecure with himself and is untrusting. Behavior like this doesn't get better over time - it gets worse... much worse. Eventually he's going to be checking your phone, email, following you places - basically he is going to become a stalker. Some guys this controlling even become verbally or physically abusive (or both). The guy needs counseling immediately.

As for you - I don't see why it's so important that you dance. If you're dancing by yourself or with girlfriends that's one thing, but usually when out on the dance floor other guys attempt to dance with you. If you dance with them it sends the wrong signal that you are easy or looking to flirt. I would find something else you can do physically besides dancing, like aerobics, kickboxing, yoga, etc.


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## jaquen

Darkstar71 said:


> As for you - I don't see why it's so important that you dance. If you're dancing by yourself or with girlfriends that's one thing, but usually when out on the dance floor other guys attempt to dance with you. If you dance with them it sends the wrong signal that you are easy or looking to flirt. I would find something else you can do physically besides dancing, like aerobics, kickboxing, yoga, etc.


Good grief, somebody who loves to dance, something BILLIONS of human beings the world over enjoy, isn't going to find satisfaction in substituting it with an aerobics class. 

That's like saying to somebody "I don't even see why it's so important for you to read".


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## cuchulain36

Dancing is a way of attracting attention of potential lovers. Dancing today is basically simulated sex acts. Is it appropriate for men to drink 20 beers with their buddies then try to find the easiest girl at the bar once married? That's what single guys do, just like single girls go clubbing. A wife who goes clubbing in her young 20s still will likely be divorced or in an affair by mid 20s. I would say almost 100% chance. If you want to live like a single person why get married?

Why even put your husband in that situation? Why not do things married women do like dinners, lunches, do yoga etc... Grinding on some dudes lap for three hours while pounding alcohol certainly doesn't seem reasonable for a husband to accept in the name of "I like dancing"


----------



## jaquen

cuchulain36 said:


> Dancing is a way of attracting attention of potential lovers. Dancing today is basically simulated sex acts. Is it appropriate for men to drink 20 beers with their buddies then try to find the easiest girl at the bar once married? That's what single guys do, just like single girls go clubbing. A wife who goes clubbing in her young 20s still will likely be divorced or in an affair by mid 20s. I would say almost 100% chance. If you want to live like a single person why get married?
> 
> Why even put your husband in that situation? Why not do things married women do like dinners, lunches, do yoga etc... Grinding on some dudes lap for three hours while pounding alcohol certainly doesn't seem reasonable for a husband to accept in the name of "I like dancing"


You know honestly, at this point, I'm just going to go ahead and say it. One brief look at your, and some of the other "prison state" marriage posters history, show that some of you are doing A LOT of projecting due to spouses who've cheated on you, or you suspect have/are cheating on you.

I think the OP, if she ever comes back, should be made aware that a lot of this thread is filled with hurt people projecting a lot of their own issues on to her situation, to the point where you're not even dealing with the actual details of the life SHE outlined.

OP becareful what you read around here. At 22 the last thing you need is to read projections and bitterness disguised as "advice".


----------



## cuchulain36

I'm not projecting anything, a girl in her young twenties who still sees clubbing as an option never should have gotten married. Wait until your clubbing ****ty phase is over and get married in your 30s.

What she is doing is trying to extend her married life into her single friends world, won't work. Just like the guy who stews at the bar five nights a week, eventually it goes south. You can't be both it's been tried but doesn't work.

I'm not in a prison state marriage my wife comes and goes as she pleases, I raised my objection once it turned too frequent and drinking to excess. I paid for my wife to go back to school so she could work yah I'm a real Neanderthal. You talk with the arrogance of someone who thinks he's better than me because ( as far as he knows) his wife hasn't cheated.


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## jaquen

cuchulain36 said:


> I'm not projecting anything, a girl in her young twenties who still sees clubbing as an option never should have gotten married. Wait until your clubbing ****ty phase is over and get married in your 30s.
> 
> What she is doing is trying to extend her married life into her single friends world, won't work. Just like the guy who stews at the bar five nights a week, eventually it goes south. You can't be both it's been tried but doesn't work.


At some point you hopefully will come to realize that your marriage doesn't equal everyone else's marriage. Your marital "laws" are far from universal.


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## GenerationX

cuchulain36 said:


> I'm not projecting anything, a girl in her young twenties who still sees clubbing as an option never should have gotten married. Wait until your clubbing ****ty phase is over and get married in your 30s.
> 
> What she is doing is trying to extend her married life into her single friends world, won't work. Just like the guy who stews at the bar five nights a week, eventually it goes south. You can't be both it's been tried but doesn't work.
> 
> I'm not in a prison state marriage my wife comes and goes as she pleases, I raised my objection once it turned too frequent and drinking to excess. I paid for my wife to go back to school so she could work yah I'm a real Neanderthal. You talk with the arrogance of someone who thinks he's better than me because ( as far as he knows) his wife hasn't cheated.


I have to agree with cuchulain36. A girl who wants to go clubbing all the time should not be married for the reasons he already mentioned.


----------



## The Middleman

jaquen said:


> That's like saying to somebody "I don't even see why it's so important for you to read".


Seriously? Last time I checked, reading is something the vast majority of people do alone. Dancing almost always involves other human beings and most of the time with members of the opposite sex ..... and depending upon the type of dancing, it can be intimately close. Not a good annology my friend.

I won't talk about the OP, but I will tell you that in over 30 years of being married, my wife hasn't danced with a man that wasn't either me or a blood relative. I guess I'm a lucky guy in that she has never wanted or tried to cross that line. But I guess she knows me well enough that it won't fly.


----------



## clipclop2

The analogies people draw upon are really indicative of shallow thinking at times. At that point it isn't worth continuing to argue.


----------



## jaquen

The Middleman said:


> Seriously? Last time I checked, reading is something the vast majority of people do alone. Dancing almost always involves other human beings and most of the time with members of the opposite sex ..... and depending upon the type of dancing, it can be intimately close. Not a good annology my friend.
> 
> I won't talk about the OP, but I will tell you that in over 30 years of being married, my wife hasn't danced with a man that wasn't either me or a blood relative. I guess I'm a lucky guy in that she has never wanted or tried to cross that line. But I guess she knows me well enough that it won't fly.



No. Dancing is a neutral activity. People can dance in a class, dance in church, dance alone, with a spouse, with friends. Dancing is not tied exclusively with grinding up against opposite sex strangers.

You are projecting. Most of you who have a problem with her going out are projecting. The woman who started this thread, in her very first post, already stated that she intended to go out...with her husband.



wif3y said:


> Well right now I am very upset my girlfriends decide to have a girls night out and I knowing how my husband is (he doesn't like to let me go out unless he goes) I told the girls I would go *and that I would bring my husband so girls were totally fine with it.*


In her second post in this thread, on the FIRST page, she stated that dancing with other men is not allowed in her marriage:



wif3y said:


> ELEGIRL: *No no no no lol not dancing with guys I am married and that doesn't fly in my marriage.* Only dancing with my 2 girlfriends and yea he tends to always over react when I tell him I want to hang out with a girlfriend like if he doesn't want me to hang out with anybody. I understand with guys which is totally fine but, a girl?!?!


Here you have a woman who, from the get go of this thread, has made it clear:

- She planned to go to the club...with her husband.
- She doesn't dance with other men. It's not allowed in her marriage.
- She has no problem with avoiding opposite sex friends.
- Her husband has an issue with her having ANY friends, even female ones.

How in the world did this woman's story turn into a cautionary warning and lecture about people grinding and popping with the opposite sex at clubs?


----------



## EleGirl

jaquen said:


> No. Dancing is a neutral activity. People can dance in a class, dance in church, dance alone, with a spouse, with friends. Dancing is not tied exclusively with grinding up against opposite sex strangers.
> 
> You are projecting. Most of you who have a problem with her going out are projecting. The woman who started this thread, in her very first post, already stated that she intended to go out...with her husband.
> 
> 
> 
> In her second post in this thread, on the FIRST page, she stated that dancing with other men is not allowed in her marriage:
> 
> 
> 
> Here you have a woman who, from the get go of this thread, has made it clear:
> 
> - She planned to go to the club...with her husband.
> - She doesn't dance with other men. It's not allowed in her marriage.
> - She has no problem with avoiding opposite sex friends.
> - Her husband has an issue with her having ANY friends, even female ones.
> 
> How in the world did this woman's story turn into a cautionary warning and lecture about people grinding and popping with the opposite sex at clubs?


:iagree:


----------



## Chaparral

I married late due to having way to much fun single. From my experience in those early years and now thirty years of married life, there is no confusion on my part about GNOs.

When I was running around you could hardly tell the married girls by their actions. I know of one newlywed that ended up shagging a gut in the parking lot. Another beautiful girl I ran into that was married drove 40 miles every Wed for some "fun". That was on purpose. Most problems are drunken "accidents" that lead to something more.

The first GNO I ran across was when a friend and his wife decided to alternate one night a week going out with the other spouse babysitting. I was floored he would accept that but he thought it was the greatest thing. When he came in to work two months later there was no doubt what happened by just looking at his face. She had met another man and was gone with the kids.

In the intervening thirty years I know of one couple that has managed to stay together after the wife started going out without her husband. The group of women friends the one holdout was in included five married women. Four of them divorced their husbands.

Now that I think about it, none of the men that have gone out that I know have divorced their wives. One cheated on his wife and she caught him though and divorced him.

If you want to stay married, act like it and only go out drinking/partying with your husband.

If you are a man and your wife has to go out with out you, start looking for a divorce lawyer asap. Shes looking for something and its not you.


----------



## cuchulain36

Chaparral said:


> I married late due to having way to much fun single. From my experience in those early years and now thirty years of married life, there is no confusion on my part about GNOs.
> 
> 
> 
> When I was running around you could hardly tell the married girls by their actions. I know of one newlywed that ended up shagging a gut in the parking lot. Another beautiful girl I ran into that was married drove 40 miles every Wed for some "fun". That was on purpose. Most problems are drunken "accidents" that lead to something more.
> 
> 
> 
> The first GNO I ran across was when a friend and his wife decided to alternate one night a week going out with the other spouse babysitting. I was floored he would accept that but he thought it was the greatest thing. When he came in to work two months later there was no doubt what happened by just looking at his face. She had met another man and was gone with the kids.
> 
> 
> 
> In the intervening thirty years I know of one couple that has managed to stay together after the wife started going out without her husband. The group of women friends the one holdout was in included five married women. Four of them divorced their husbands.
> 
> 
> 
> Now that I think about it, none of the men that have gone out that I know have divorced their wives. One cheated on his wife and she caught him though and divorced him.
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to stay married, act like it and only go out drinking/partying with your husband.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are a man and your wife has to go out with out you, start looking for a divorce lawyer asap. Shes looking for something and its not you.



100% agree, you were smart and married after you had your wild days out of your system. I too in my day have run into many married women on GNO's who we're acting like anything but married women. A friend of mine had sex with TWO married women in a club bathroom, from my experience married women at clubs drinking to all hours behave more sexually wanton than single women. I guess because they get out less.

I also agree a married woman who needs to go clubbing is looking for a replacement, the OP should never have gotten married this young, she isn't ready for it. Before they bring a kid into this the OP should think long and hard about what she really wants out of life, is it marriage, career, family, and home life? Or is it clubbing like a sorority sister on spring break? Nothing wrong with either just be honest about it before the husband is trapped with a kid while she sows her oats.


----------



## manfromlamancha

Wow this thread is still going. We are up to 16 pages and we last heard from Wifey on page 4. Do you think she has left ?


----------



## vellocet

melw74 said:


> I trust my husband 100% and he trusts me, but i have to say, I would not want him to go out dancing with his mates all night... going to a pub or club.... and he would not like me doing it either..... I do have to say, I do sway to the side of it being a thing you do when your single and not when your married.....


But if you both trust 100%, why not?

If you trust 100% that means you trust them no matter what the circumstance, situation, etc. whether that means you think they will cross the line of simply enjoy getting enjoyment out of being around others and mingling with people they find attractive, which can be considered a form of unfaithfulness.


----------



## vellocet

cuchulain36 said:


> Dancing is a way of attracting attention of potential lovers. Dancing today is basically simulated sex acts.


Exactly. I told this story before, but long ago in my younger days, I was at a club with my girlfriend. Maybe it was too soon in the relationship to resist letting another guy rub his crotch up against her ass, but there we were. She went out to the dancefloor with her friends, I was at the bar with my buds chewing the fat.

At one point one of my friends told me I need to look at the dancefloor and there was my girlfriend acting like she is getting F'd from behind by this other guy.

So I head out to the dancefloor, didn't say a word to either of them, just stood there for a few seconds and looked. Obviously the guy knew to back away and that a line had been crossed.

I turned around and started to walk out of the bar. She followed me and asked what was wrong. It was one of those "really?" moments.

I told her I don't date girls that like to act like they are having sex with other guy's on the dancefloor, let alone the "run of the mill" grinding or bodies pressed against each other dancing.

She said, "its just dancing, it didn't mean anything". I told her it meant something to me and she needs to get one of her friends to give her a ride home.

So what is it about people that think simulated sex on the dancefloor is "just dancing"?


----------



## vellocet

jaquen said:


> You know honestly, at this point, I'm just going to go ahead and say it. One brief look at your, and some of the other "prison state" marriage posters history, show that some of you are doing A LOT of projecting due to spouses who've cheated on you, or you suspect have/are cheating on you.


What is so prison state to expect your spouse to not act as if they are single or refrain from inappropriate interactions with other people?


----------



## vellocet

jaquen said:


> No. Dancing is a neutral activity. People can dance in a class, dance in church, dance alone, with a spouse, with friends. *Dancing is not tied exclusively with grinding up against opposite sex strangers*.


I agree. But with regards to inappropriate activity, the latter bolded part is what we are referring.

If a partner of mine wants to go do some line dancing or polka and its not my thing, I encourage it.

She wants to grind her crotch on other men, then she needs to find someone who doesn't mind being disrespected. A lapdog if you will.


----------



## rubymoon

vellocet said:


> simply enjoy getting enjoyment out of being around others and mingling with people they find attractive, which can be considered a form of unfaithfulness.


Just put em in a cage. And cover it with heavy blankets. That will ensure they are faithful to you... No, wait! Hit em on the head with something heavy to avoid getting cheated on by "simply enjoy getting enjoyment out of being around others and mingling with people they find attractive" in their minds!


----------



## rubymoon

vellocet said:


> What is so prison state to expect your spouse to not act as if they are single or refrain from inappropriate interactions with other people?


"Expect" does not entail making them do what they don't want to do - that's prison state. You advocate "forcing", not "expecting".


----------



## vellocet

rubymoon said:


> Just put em in a cage. And cover it with heavy blankets. That will ensure they are faithful to you... No, wait! Hit em on the head with something heavy to avoid getting cheated on by "simply enjoy getting enjoyment out of being around others and mingling with people they find attractive" in their minds!


No, that's not what I meant. It was a comment about trusting their spouse 100%, BUT not liking them doing certain things.

Was asking if they trust 100%, then why not trust them ALL the time in every circumstance.

I don't see it that way. Of course everyone is going to find other people attractive. 

But there is a difference between admiring someone's attractiveness and putting themselves in a position to be around them in closer proximity than what they know is crossing a line.

Perhaps I worded it wrong. I don't know. But what would YOU call it if someone finds someone else very attractive and goes out of their way to be close to them?


----------



## vellocet

rubymoon said:


> "Expect" does not entail making them do what they don't want to do - that's prison state. You advocate "forcing", not "expecting".


I'm not talking about forcing anyone to do anything.

If I'm with someone and they want to disrespect me, I'm not going to lock her in the house. She is free to do as she pleases. But her actions will come with consequences if she crosses the line.

If I'm married I expect her to not act single. If she wants to act single she should BE single.

And please, show me where I EVER advocated "forcing" anyone to do as I want? Hell, I was the husband that was happy to stay at home with the kids so my wife could go out and be with friends.

So again, show me.  I'll be waiting for you to retract your lie.


----------



## rubymoon

cuchulain36 said:


> I'm not projecting anything, a girl in her young twenties who still sees clubbing as an option never should have gotten married. Wait until your clubbing ****ty phase is over and get married in your 30s.


When the chance of birth defects goes up exponentially. But then... there are other countries where we can import babies from. But that's not important - the important part is to NOT go clubbing.


----------



## rubymoon

vellocet said:


> I'm not talking about forcing anyone to do anything.
> 
> If I'm with someone and they want to disrespect me, I'm not going to lock her in the house. She is free to do as she pleases. But her actions will come with consequences if she crosses the line.
> 
> If I'm married I expect her to not act single. If she wants to act single she should BE single.
> 
> And please, show me where I EVER advocated "forcing" anyone to do as I want? Hell, I was the husband that was happy to stay at home with the kids so my wife could go out and be with friends.
> 
> So again, show me. I'll be waiting for you to retract your lie.


Chill. It's a MB, not a court room.


----------



## vellocet

rubymoon said:


> Chill. It's a MB, not a court room.


That's what I thought. Next time think before you incorrectly assume what someone advocates.

And funny how you want me to "chill" when you are the one that got your panties in a bunch in the first place.


----------



## rubymoon

vellocet said:


> No, that's not what I meant. It was a comment about trusting their spouse 100%, BUT not liking them doing certain things.
> 
> Was asking if they trust 100%, then why not trust them ALL the time in every circumstance.
> 
> I don't see it that way. Of course everyone is going to find other people attractive.
> 
> But there is a difference between admiring someone's attractiveness and putting themselves in a position to be around them in closer proximity than what they know is crossing a line.
> 
> Perhaps I worded it wrong. I don't know. But what would YOU call it if someone finds someone else very attractive and goes out of their way to be close to them?


Why do you assume that they will go "out of their way to be close to them"?


----------



## rubymoon

vellocet said:


> That's what I thought. Next time think before you incorrectly assume what someone advocates.
> 
> And funny how you want me to "chill" when you are the one that got your panties in a bunch in the first place.


Yes, Sir!


----------



## vellocet

rubymoon said:


> Why do you assume that they will go "out of their way to be close to them"?


I posed a scenario of someone that DOES want to do such to see what your answer would be. Not that everyone wants to.

If you don't want to answer the question, just say so.


----------



## rubymoon

vellocet said:


> I posed a scenario of someone that DOES want to do such to see what your answer would be. Not that everyone wants to.
> 
> If you don't want to answer the question, just say so.


We are not talking about spouses going out of their way to be close to someone else. We are talking about going out to clubs. It's NOT the same thing. One may go out of one's way to get close to someone attractive at a church! Your question implies assumptions that are not a part of the conversation. The conversation is about going out with friends to clubs. Not about going out of the way........... 

People should be allowed to have friends and to spend time without their SO's. Marriage is not a prison. Unless you turn it into a prison.


----------



## vellocet

rubymoon said:


> We are not talking about spouses going out of their way to be close to someone else. We are talking about going out to clubs. It's NOT the same thing. One may go out of one's way to get close to someone attractive at a church! Your question implies assumptions that are not a part of the conversation. The conversation is about going out with friends to clubs. Not about going out of the way...........
> 
> People should be allowed to have friends and to spend time without their SO's. Marriage is not a prison. Unless you turn it into a prison.


UGH, really? You do realize threads evolve? Or maybe you don't. I don't disagree about having friends and time away from a significant other.

I was replying to OPs comments about 100% trust and asked a question, which you answered, then I answered you back.

If you can't keep the timeline of the questions and responses and see that I responded with a general question to OP, then you responded, then me back, then don't bother.

I won't ask you any questions since I know you'll just avoid it because it doesn't support your desire to paint spouses displeasure with the activities of the other as some sort of tyranny. So never mind.


----------



## The Middleman

jaquen said:


> No. Dancing is a neutral activity. People can dance in a class, dance in church, dance alone,


Sorry, but I'm just not buying it. Only a small minority of people do what you say above. The majority is with either with same sex friends, a spouse or someone of the opposite sex. Dancing with a spouse or someone of the opposite sex is not a neutral activity (if I'm understanding what you mean by a neutral activity correctly) and can be very intimate (even without the grinding). I'm not projecting. Just giving you what my idea of proper behavior for a married person is ... in my humble opinion.


----------



## jaquen

vellocet said:


> What is so prison state to expect your spouse to not act as if they are single or refrain from inappropriate interactions with other people?


That's just it, isn't it? I expect my wife to refrain from inappropriate (as defined by us) interactions with other people.

Wherever my wife goes I expect her to recall that she's a married, in-love woman. I don't need to check her behavior. That's not my responsibility. It's her responsibility to keep her vows. I don't need to lay down any rules or regulations. She's grown up, married, intelligent woman who made vows. I expect her to keep them and vice versa. 

I would NEVER be married to a woman who I had to police. That's not the kind of marriage I'm interested in.


----------



## EleGirl

vellocet said:


> But if you both trust 100%, why not?
> 
> If you trust 100% that means you trust them no matter what the circumstance, situation, etc. whether that means you think they will cross the line of *simply enjoy getting enjoyment out of being around others and mingling with people they find attractive, which can be considered a form of unfaithfulness*.


Mingling with people that one finds attractive is unfaithfulness? Really? "mingling" means talking to people, being in a crowd like a social gathering and doing the correct social things and talking to everyone there.

Unbelievable.


----------



## cuchulain36

Good luck with that, but many affairs have begun with women seemingly commited and in love to their husbands and the affair was completely out of character. In fact she acted insane throwing away everything with no proper reasoning why. luckily science can give us a reason and the chemicals at play are a lot stronger than your expectations. Not being involved and looking out for situations where affairs are likely to start because "my wife could never do that" is very naive.


----------



## richie33

Than it's more about the person you married than what they do socially.


----------



## cuchulain36

richie33 said:


> Than it's more about the person you married than what they do socially.



Not really, given the right circumstance anyone can have an affair, literally tens of millions of women cheat on their husbands yearly. It's estimated 10-20% of all children are not fathered by a woman's husband.

So people can think "oh I trust my wife, she could NEVER have sex with someone else" but it's simply fooling yourself. Given the right connection at the right time with the right guy any woman will be unfaithful, it's in their DNA.

Not having boundaries in a marriage and anything goes is a sure fire way to help that process along. It's not about control it's about boundaries and respect because you're married.


----------



## richie33

cuchulain36 said:


> Not really, given the right circumstance anyone can have an affair, literally tens of millions of women chat on their husbands yearly. It's estimated 10-20% of all children are not fathered by a woman's husband.
> 
> So people can think "oh I trust my wife, she could NEVER have sex with someone else" but it's simply fooling yourself. Giving the right connection at the right time with the right guy and any women will be unfaithful, it's in their DNA.


Wow....that is one of the most sexist remarks I have read on this site.


----------



## rubymoon

cuchulain36 said:


> Given the right connection at the right time with the right guy *any woman *will be unfaithful, it's in *their DNA*.


Hahahahaaaa!!! 

Let me guess - were you homeschooled?


----------



## EleGirl

cuchulain36 said:


> Not really, given the right circumstance anyone can have an affair, literally tens of millions of women cheat on their husbands yearly. It's estimated 10-20% of all children are not fathered by a woman's husband.
> 
> So people can think "oh I trust my wife, she could NEVER have sex with someone else" but it's simply fooling yourself. Given the right connection at the right time with the right guy any woman will be unfaithful, it's in their DNA.
> 
> Not having boundaries in a marriage and anything goes is a sure fire way to help that process along. It's not about control it's about boundaries and respect because you're married.





richie33 said:


> Than it's more about the person you married than what they do socially.


I doubt that richie33 means that boundaries are not important in a marriage. Picking a person to marry who has proper boundaries is important. Then trusting them to live by those boundaries is also important.

Saying that a woman cannot be trusted to mingle with attractive people is ridiculous. A person with proper boundaries can mingle with attractive people and never once cheat. They can go dancing and choose to not do the bump and grind dancing but instead dance with other women or only do no-suggestive dancing.

The fact is that most women never cheat. So most women have good boundaries because in the USA most women are not locked up at home away from mingling with other men, to include attractive men.

We do to treat 80% of the population like prisoners and infidelity waiting to happen when the vast majority will never cheat.


----------



## EleGirl

richie33 said:


> Wow....that is one of the most sexist remarks I have read on this site.


Don't you know? We are all *****s and slvts. That's why we need men to control us.


----------



## EleGirl

cuchulain36 said:


> Not really, given the right circumstance anyone can have an affair, literally tens of millions of women cheat on their husbands yearly. It's estimated 10-20% of all children are not fathered by a woman's husband.
> 
> So people can think "oh I trust my wife, she could NEVER have sex with someone else" but it's simply fooling yourself. Given the right connection at the right time with the right guy any woman will be unfaithful, it's in their DNA.
> 
> Not having boundaries in a marriage and anything goes is a sure fire way to help that process along. It's not about control it's about boundaries and respect because you're married.


Do you agree that most men will cheat as well?


----------



## vellocet

EleGirl said:


> Mingling with people that one finds attractive is unfaithfulness? Really? "mingling" means talking to people, being in a crowd like a social gathering and doing the correct social things and talking to everyone there.
> 
> Unbelievable.


Nope, came out wrong. I should have said putting themselves in situations where they like to surround themselves with other people to whom they are attracted. For example going to a club to get their attention fix. 

Just mingling with people someone finds attractive is unavoidable. I'm talking about surrounding oneself with different intentions other than making conversation, etc.

Did that make more sense?


----------



## cuchulain36

EleGirl said:


> Do you agree that most men will cheat as well?



If given the right opportunity with the right person at the right time then absolutely. It's all about context.

I never called anyone a slvt nor did it say anyone needs to be controlled.


----------



## AliceA

cuchulain36 said:


> Not really, given the right circumstance anyone can have an affair, literally tens of millions of women cheat on their husbands yearly. It's estimated 10-20% of all children are not fathered by a woman's husband.
> 
> So people can think "oh I trust my wife, she could NEVER have sex with someone else" but it's simply fooling yourself. Given the right connection at the right time with the right guy any woman will be unfaithful, it's in their DNA.
> 
> Not having boundaries in a marriage and anything goes is a sure fire way to help that process along. It's not about control it's about boundaries and respect because you're married.


If you wanted to make a point that people would find wasn't based on ignorance but instead an observation of human nature, you would have said that given the right circumstances, it's in everyone's nature, male or female, to cheat.


----------



## cuchulain36

breeze said:


> If you wanted to make a point that people would find wasn't based on ignorance but instead an observation of human nature, you would have said that given the right circumstances, it's in everyone's nature, male or female, to cheat.



Genetically it's more on a woman's I believe. Partner selection and who will make her baby is a very primal thing. You don't remove tens of thousands or years of evolution with a generation of bra burning.

Look at this site nearly every post is from a guy whose wife is cheating and rarely the other way around/ I think women cheat in astronomical levels in the west.


----------



## richie33

Should women work? I am sure some of those numbers you are throwing around about affairs happen at work.


----------



## johnnycomelately

cuchulain36 said:


> Genetically it's more on a woman's I believe. Partner selection and who will make her baby is a very primal thing. You don't remove tens of thousands or years of evolution with a generation of bra burning.
> 
> Look at this site nearly every post is from a guy whose wife is cheating and rarely the other way around/ I think women cheat in astronomical levels in the west.


As has been shown by countless studies men cheat more than women. The posters on this site are a self-selecting group, so there is no value in using TAM as a basis for judging which gender is unfaithful more often. 

You keep saying how women cheat more than men but produce no credible evidence of that.


----------



## rubymoon

cuchulain36 said:


> Genetically it's more on a woman's I believe. Partner selection and who will make her baby is a very primal thing. You don't remove tens of thousands or years of evolution with a generation of bra burning.


So, you are saying that women care who will father their babies - right? And that's why they cheat. Why do men cheat then?


----------



## EleGirl

cuchulain36 said:


> If given the right opportunity with the right person at the right time then absolutely. It's all about context.
> 
> I never called anyone a slvt nor did it say anyone needs to be controlled.


You said that all women will cheat. That's the same as calling all women slvts. Sometimes the actual words are not needed.

Your posts on this thread are all about how women need to be controlled as otherwise they will cheat.


----------



## EleGirl

cuchulain36 said:


> Genetically it's more on a woman's I believe. Partner selection and who will make her baby is a very primal thing. You don't remove tens of thousands or years of evolution with a generation of bra burning.


What's genetically more on a woman's?

And more on a woman's what?



cuchulain36 said:


> Look at this site nearly every post is from a guy whose wife is cheating and rarely the other way around/ I think women cheat in astronomical levels in the west.


This site has mostly men posting about their cheating wife because there is a very strong male support group here. 

Most of the women who post here about infidelity leave and do not stay for long term support. There are other forums that have many more women posting for support for infidelity because those sites are more supportive of women. 

Another factor in this is that men tend to not see out support from people in their real life. Women will more readily seek out support from their female friends and family members.

TAM is a self selecting group of people. 

There are a lot of studies about who cheats. Across the board, the studies how that men cheat at a few percentage points more than women do.


----------



## cuchulain36

breeze said:


> If you wanted to make a point that people would find wasn't based on ignorance but instead an observation of human nature, you would have said that given the right circumstances, it's in everyone's nature, male or female, to cheat.



That's funny because that's what I said, read my post again. Pay attention to the part where I say "anyone".


----------



## cuchulain36

EleGirl said:


> You said that all women will cheat. That's the same as calling all women slvts.



1. No I didn't, I challenge you to find in this thread where I said that "all women will cheat".
2. No it doesn't


----------



## richie33

Given the right connection at the right time with the right guy any woman will be unfaithful, it's in their DNA.

Here you go


----------



## cuchulain36

richie33 said:


> Given the right connection at the right time with the right guy any woman will be unfaithful, it's in their DNA.
> 
> Here you go



Clearly not the same as "all women will cheat" reading comprehension is your friend.

How does one argue against a straw man? You don't.


----------



## richie33

cuchulain36 said:


> Clearly not the same as "all women will cheat" reading comprehension is your friend.
> 
> How does one argue against a straw man? You don't.


My comprehension is fine. Hopefully you do not have daughters.


----------



## cuchulain36

richie33 said:


> My comprehension is fine. Hopefully you do not have daughters.



First a Strawman now an ad hominem? Hopefully you're not an English teacher.


----------



## richie33

Is it straw man or Strawman?


----------



## EleGirl

It's not a straw man at all.... 




cuchulain36 said:


> Clearly not the same as "all women will cheat" reading comprehension is your friend.
> 
> How does one argue against a straw man? You don't.


Take your sentence:



cuchulain36 said:


> Given the right connection at the right time with the right guy any woman will be unfaithful, it's in their DNA.


Take your sentence and replace "any" with "all". The sentences have the exact same meaning.

Given the right connection at the right time with the right guy *any* woman will be unfaithful, it's in their DNA.

Given the right connection at the right time with the right guy *all* woman will be unfaithful, it's in their DNA.

The fact is that about 80% of women never cheat. So obviously you are wrong. Your statement above assumes that the only motivator for all women to cheat is connection, time and the guy.

You do not allow for character, moral convictions, love for her mate, self determination, etc. Your premise is that women have no control when those 3 things are met. It's hogwash.


----------



## EleGirl

richie33 said:


> Is it *straw man *or Strawman?


----------



## rubymoon

cuchulain36 said:


> Clearly not the same as "all women will cheat" reading comprehension is your friend.
> 
> How does one argue against a straw man? You don't.


How is it not the same in this context??


----------



## Chaparral

johnnycomelately said:


> As has been shown by countless studies men cheat more than women. The posters on this site are a self-selecting group, so there is no value in using TAM as a basis for judging which gender is unfaithful more often.
> 
> You keep saying how women cheat more than men but produce no credible evidence of that.


Look up infidelity statistics. Men and women bothe cheat at about the same rate. Depending on most studies, 30-40%. Some studies have gone as high as fifty percent. When polled, over 70% of both men and women admit they would cheat if they knew they wouldn't get caught. Put those folks in a club and mix with alcohol. Been there and done that. If you have been in a club and you trust your SO there with out you..............


----------



## Chaparral

For the poster that said most all women would cheat under certain circumstances. It reminds me of the joke where the rich man riding the elevator with the beautiful engaged woman, asked her if she would have sex with him for a million dollars. (When a million was big money,lol)


----------



## EleGirl

Chaparral said:


> For the poster that said most all women would cheat under certain circumstances. It reminds me of the joke where the rich man riding the elevator with the beautiful engaged woman, asked her if she would have sex with him for a million dollars. (When a million was big money,lol)


The answer to that is no... why? Because any man who would pay a million for sex does not want anything normal. She'd be lucky to live through it.


----------



## Entropy3000

Chaparral said:


> Look up infidelity statistics. Men and women bothe cheat at about the same rate. Depending on most studies, 30-40%. Some studies have gone as high as fifty percent. When polled, over 70% of both men and women admit they would cheat if they knew they wouldn't get caught. Put those folks in a club and mix with alcohol. Been there and done that. If you have been in a club and you trust your SO there with out you..............


You know what strikes me here?

What constitutes cheating? 

If cheating is only PAs. Helpe me here, these statistics do not take into account the huge number of pure EAs let alone the infatuations that occur. I contend that those escapades also damage marriages by draining the primary relationship.

This is just a drive by. LOL.


----------



## Chaparral

EleGirl said:


> The answer to that is no... why? Because any man who would pay a million for sex does not want anything normal. She'd be lucky to live through it.



The answer was she sure would. Then he asked her if she would do it for $100. She said "what kind of woman do you think I am?". He said, "we've already established that, now we're negotiating. "


----------



## Chaparral

Entropy3000 said:


> You know what strikes me here?
> 
> What constitutes cheating?
> 
> If cheating is only PAs. Helpe me here, these statistics do not take into account the huge number of pure EAs let alone the infatuations that occur. I contend that those escapades also damage marriages by draining the primary relationship.
> 
> This is just a drive by. LOL.


There are a lot of posts here that are going to come back and haunt some posters. The odds catch up with some no matter how trusting they are. Some learn early, some learn later and some get lucky.


----------



## cuchulain36

rubymoon said:


> How is it not the same in this context??



I'll break it down for you, saying all women will cheat is not the same as all women will fall under the right time with the right man and the right situation, pretty simple really. It's odd I have to actually explain this.


----------



## EleGirl

cuchulain36 said:


> I'll break it down for you, saying all women will cheat is not the same as all women will fall under the right time with the right man and the right situation, pretty simple really. It's odd I have to actually explain this.


As I said above, saying all women will cheat under some contrived set of circumstances is saying that no woman has the character and moral convictions to not cheat. You are saying that the only reason a woman has not cheated yet is because the magic 3 things have not come together.

We get what you saying. You cannot wiggle out of it after saying it.


----------



## manfromlamancha

I heard it once said that "only women bleed". Is this a straw man or more of a tin man ?


----------



## Mostlycontent

rubymoon said:


> Hahahahaaaa!!!
> 
> Let me guess - were you homeschooled?



What does being homeshcooled have to do with this poster's attitude? You pretend to be smart so why don't you explain it to me.


----------



## EleGirl

Miss Taken said:


> General question to the women on this board that have not cheated (so far of course).
> 
> What do you think has kept you faithful (so far)?
> 
> Do you wear a head-dress or a burka of some kind?
> 
> Do you make sure to always stay within your husband's line of site, if not, arm's reach?
> 
> Is your skirt always covering your ankles?
> 
> Do you make sure to always be accompanied by your husband or someone who could appropriately supervise you?
> 
> If none of those things, do you think you just haven't been offered enough money yet to do the dirty? Maybe that's it. It's in our DNA.


Well for me it’s the burka. And I’m only allowed out of the house with male relatives. All the windows in my home are painted black so that I cannot see the hot landscape guys, the guy who shoes the horses, or the vet, etc. Oh, and my personal trainer is a woman picked by my husband to make sure she’s not lesbian. That’s why I spend all my time on the internet. And of course there is a key logger on my computer. LOL


----------



## Miss Taken

General question to the women on this board that have not cheated (so far of course). 

What do you think has kept you faithful (so far)?

Do you wear a head-dress or a burka of some kind?

Do you make sure to always stay within your husband's line of site, if not, arm's reach?

Is your skirt always covering your ankles?

Do you make sure to always be accompanied by your husband or someone who could appropriately supervise you?

If none of those things, do you think you just haven't been offered enough money yet to do the dirty? Maybe that's it. It's in our DNA.


----------



## Miss Taken

EleGirl said:


> Well for me it’s the burka. And I’m only allowed out of the house with male relatives. All the windows in my home are painted black so that I cannot see the hot landscape guys, the guy who shoes the horses, or the vet, etc. Oh, and my personal trainer is a woman picked by my husband to make sure she’s not lesbian. That’s why I spend all my time on the internet. And of course there is a key logger on my computer. LOL


I just deleted my post (thinking it was in bad taste) but since you answered, put it back up again LOL. 

For me, I think it's that I just haven't had a big enough indecent proposal sum. :smthumbup: 

Just kidding of course!

ETA: You're lucky that your husband permits personal training. I'm sure mine would like to be a feeder to get me heavy so that no or less men would like me.


----------



## WandaJ

wow. with my girlfriends we have tradition of going out for our b-days. To the clubs, no husbands. We are having time of our lives, ten 35-45 year old ladies, old married with kids, dancing until our legs hurt, completely not interested in random pick up. and becaues we are not interested, and because we all have someone to go back to we can really relax and enjoy ourselves.
Our husbands are allowed to go out too, although they prefer sport bars.


----------



## Entropy3000

Miss Taken said:


> General question to the women on this board that have not cheated (so far of course).
> 
> What do you think has kept you faithful (so far)?
> 
> Do you wear a head-dress or a burka of some kind?
> Do you make sure to always stay within your husband's line of site, if not, arm's reach?
> Is your skirt always covering your ankles?
> Do you make sure to always be accompanied by your husband or someone who could appropriately supervise you?
> 
> If none of those things, do you think you just haven't been offered enough money yet to do the dirty? Maybe that's it. It's in our DNA.


I love the drama of the burka and islamic references. No more though than saying that the modern marriage is a forced cuckold relationship. Shaming at its best.

Carry on folks.


----------



## EleGirl

Miss Taken said:


> I just deleted my post (thinking it was in bad taste) but since you answered, put it back up again LOL.
> 
> For me, I think it's that I just haven't had a big enough indecent proposal sum. :smthumbup:
> 
> Just kidding of course!
> 
> ETA: You're lucky that your husband permits personal training. I'm sure mine would like to be a feeder to get me heavy so that no or less men would like me.


I was thinking about putting out a call for the indecent proposal thing to see how much it might be.. .but then though na..... that's in bad taste. :rofl:


----------



## Entropy3000

WandaJ said:


> wow. with my girlfriends we have tradition of going out for our b-days. To the clubs, no husbands. We are having time of our lives, ten 35-45 year old ladies, old married with kids, dancing until our legs hurt, completely not interested in random pick up. and becaues we are not interested, and because we all have someone to go back to we can really relax and enjoy ourselves.
> Our husbands are allowed to go out too, although they prefer sport bars.


Not quite the same thing though. Maybe it is because men's T levels are down and women feel more free at these ages. Idunno.

Not saying you get into any trouble or are doing anything wrong. I assume you are not dancing and drinking with other men.

I think if my wife insisted going dancing and it involved other men in a club ... I just might do the same thing. Sure it is easier for women. But if is ok for her to play with the guys it is ok for me to play too.


----------



## EleGirl

WandaJ said:


> wow. with my girlfriends we have tradition of going out for our b-days. To the clubs, no husbands. We are having time of our lives, ten 35-45 year old ladies, old married with kids, dancing until our legs hurt, completely not interested in random pick up. and becaues we are not interested, and because we all have someone to go back to we can really relax and enjoy ourselves.
> Our husbands are allowed to go out too, although they prefer sport bars.


I have done this with female friends, my 4 sisters, nieces, etc for decades. Not once has anyone gotten drunk or picked up on a guy. That's not what it's about.


----------



## Entropy3000

EleGirl said:


> I was thinking about putting out a call for the indecent proposal thing to see how much it might be.. .but then though na..... that's in bad taste. :rofl:


For some men or women it is simply picking up the bar tab.


----------



## EleGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> Not quite the same thing though. Maybe it is because men's T levels are down and women feel more free at these ages. Idunno.
> 
> Not saying you get into any trouble or are doing anything wrong. I assume you are not dancing and drinking with other men.
> 
> I think if my wife insisted going dancing and it involved other men in a club ... I just might do the same thing. Sure it is easier for women. But if is ok for her to play with the guys it is ok for me to play too.


What? Now you want to play with the guys? You are full of surprises!!!


----------



## EleGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> For some men or women it is simply picking up the bar tab.


Yep, there are low lives and easy people in both genders.


----------



## Entropy3000

EleGirl said:


> What? Now you want to play with the guys? You are full of surprises!!!


You know what? You are ok.  I really do not like guys that much.

I am good drinking some beers with the guys in a sports bar. Call me an old guy. BUT, I like hanging out with the ladies as well. Probably way too much than I should. I would absolutely feel I was cheating if I was dancing ... with a real woman ... close.


----------



## EleGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> Not quite the same thing though. Maybe it is because men's T levels are down and women feel more free at these ages. Idunno.
> 
> Not saying you get into any trouble or are doing anything wrong. I assume you are not dancing and drinking with other men.
> 
> I think if my wife insisted going dancing and it involved other men in a club ... I just might do the same thing. Sure it is easier for women. But if is ok for her to play with the guys it is ok for me to play too.


35-45 year old ladies? "at those ages"

younger men love cougars (though 35 is way too young for cougar). Are you kidding me. If those women wanted to hook up they'd have no problem at all.


----------



## EleGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> You know what? You are ok.  I really do not like guys that much.
> 
> I am good drinking some beers with the guys in a sports bar. Call me an old guy. BUT, I like hanging out with the ladies as well. Probably way too much than I should. I would absolutely feel I was cheating if I was dancing ... with a real woman ... close.


:rofl: Now that's funny!!!


----------



## Entropy3000

EleGirl said:


> 35-45 year old ladies? "at those ages"
> 
> younger men love cougars (though 35 is way too young for cougar). Are you kidding me. If those women wanted to hook up they'd have no problem at all.


Yes. That is part of the reason many guys are not so keen on their 35 year old wife going out to clubs. Pretty much guys 30 and up are interested and some younger guys too.

Many men are settled in and drinking beer. Hardly an equal comparison.


----------



## EleGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> Yes. That is part of the reason many guys are not so keen on their 35 year old wife going out to clubs. Pretty much guys 30 and up are interested and some younger guys too.
> 
> Many men are settled in and drinking beer. Hardly an equal comparison.


WandaJ, myself and other women who have posted here are just like you guys... we have no desire to pick up on guys. We are perfectly capable of telling guys NO, "Go take a hike", "Get lost" or whatever if the intrude on our time with our friends.


----------



## WandaJ

EleGirl said:


> 35-45 year old ladies? "at those ages"
> 
> younger men love cougars (though 35 is way too young for cougar). Are you kidding me. If those women wanted to hook up they'd have no problem at all.


nope, that wouldn't be a problem. But we do not need our husbands to stand by to behave.


----------



## WandaJ

Entropy3000 said:


> Yes. That is part of the reason many guys are not so keen on their 35 year old wife going out to clubs. Pretty much guys 30 and up are interested and some younger guys too.
> 
> Many men are settled in and drinking beer. Hardly an equal comparison.


You drink beer, we dance. just different hobby. I would say if you drinking too much beer, you may start looking at ladies around you too eagerly. as dangerous as dancing, I'm telling ya!


----------



## Entropy3000

WandaJ said:


> You drink beer, we dance. just different hobby. I would say if you drinking too much beer, you may start looking at ladies around you too eagerly. as dangerous as dancing, I'm telling ya!


Not even close. I can look all I want. In my marriage the boundary is look but don't touch. The power of touch.

Dancing is very physical and intimate. It is one on one. Dancing is a seduction. It is foreplay. It is a secret between you and your dance partner. 

If I did this, dancing would not be my hobby. Women would be. Agree or not this is how many of us guys view this. If you are dancing with other men, men are your hobby.

That beats the h3ll out of watching a football game at the sports bar.


----------



## Miss Taken

Seriously, has no "I'm opposed to GNO's" TAM man, ever seen the "purse circle" on the club dance floor? 

Women do - whatever the age, dance with each other at clubs. I'm not even talking about the women that grind against each other to tease or turn on men that have lesbian fantasies. I'm just talking about women that love to dance. Straight women, pretty women, young women, old women - if friends, will often dance in an all-girl (all woman) circle, purses on the floor in the center because: 
A) they like to dance and
B) the circle means no men or other outsiders are welcome, and 
C) the circle helps everyone keep an eye on their purse/bag which is usually in the center of all the women dancing.

More often than not, a woman on the dance floor will dance with her girlfriends. If a man thinks the "purse circle" is hot, that is none of my or anyone who is dancing's business, concern and most importantly FAULT. 

I could wear a skirt or dress because I like it and I'm fairly confident some Joe Blow will think it's _sexy _. That's not my fault, business, concern, or interest. I could lick an ice cream because it's summer time and I crave a soft-serve vanilla cone and some guy will see me eat ice cream and fantasize about a blow job... not my problem, responsibility, concern, problem, or fault. Same goes with women who want to go out dancing with their girlfriends.


----------



## 2ntnuf

WandaJ said:


> wow. with my girlfriends we have tradition of going out for our b-days. To the clubs, no husbands. We are having time of our lives, ten 35-45 year old ladies, old married with kids, dancing until our legs hurt, completely not interested in random pick up. and becaues we are not interested, and because we all have someone to go back to we can really relax and enjoy ourselves.
> Our husbands are allowed to go out too, although they prefer sport bars.


I did not read this whole thread. So, just wanted to give my personal opinion. 

Don't shoot me. 

So, I used to think that it was fine to go out to the clubs and bars. Both ex's went sometimes. The second more than the first. No children in the second. Well her daughter lived with us for a while. She was nineteen and lived with us for a couple or more years, so no issues with her mother going and me having to babysit. 

Anyway, I found out through others what went on and heard the laughs and giggles. I heard nothing that was great detail, just enough to know that we were living dangerously, with our marriage. 

So, that's what I think. Put yourself in a position for easy access to cheating and some day, when you feel you aren't understood, someone will come along that will understand everything, darling. ha I'm sure it doesn't happen to everyone. Don't get excited. I just think it's important to state that I realize the risks, even for me. 

My parents didn't go out much. When they started to go out again in the eighties, they went to dance clubs. Guess what? They had marital trouble. Not that it wasn't brewing there for years. It was. Add the clubs and there were questions about cheating that caused rifts that could not be repaired. Did dad cheat? Did mum cheat? I don't know. I don't think so. There might have been an EA. No proof of anything. I hated that. 

My parents, back in the fifties, went to church functions and went out bowling in leagues. They had fun and talked about it. They had good memories of that. The dance club? Not so much. So, that's my experience. 

What would I do? I'd try to do something that kept me away from temptation. No sense in pushing those boundaries. The fights aren't worth it. No one does anything wrong. Doesn't matter. There are still arguments and accusations. I don't think it's worth losing a spouse over, when they are so hard to come by(find).


----------



## WandaJ

Entropy3000 said:


> Not even close. I can look all I want. In my marriage the boundary is look but don't touch. The power of touch.
> 
> Dancing is very physical and intimate. It is one on one. Dancing is a seduction. It is foreplay. It is a secret between you and your dance partner.
> 
> If I did this, dancing would not be my hobby. Women would be. Agree or not this is how many of us guys view this. If you are dancing with other men, men are your hobby.


we dance as a GROUP, we laugh, we joke, we do funny things, basically getting nice work out with music and friends. it is great for mind, spirit and body. enchanted college boys are all around, but we just wave them off with a smile. 
Is it really that hard to imagine this? Maybe. I guess it is harder for guys to go dancing without girls, everybody would assume you're gay


----------



## Entropy3000

Miss Taken said:


> Seriously, has no "I'm opposed to GNO's" TAM man, ever seen the "purse circle" on the club dance floor?
> 
> Women do - whatever the age, dance with each other at clubs. I'm not even talking about the women that grind against each other to tease or turn on men that have lesbian fantasies. I'm just talking about women that love to dance. Straight women, pretty women, young women, old women - if friends, will often dance in an all-girl (all woman) circle, purses on the floor in the center because:
> A) they like to dance and
> B) the circle means no men or other outsiders are welcome, and
> C) the circle helps everyone keep an eye on their purse/bag which is usually in the center of all the women dancing.
> 
> More often than not, a woman on the dance floor will dance with her girlfriends. If a man thinks the "purse circle" is hot, that is none of my or anyone who is dancing's business, concern and most importantly FAULT.
> 
> I could wear a skirt or dress because I like it and I'm fairly confident some Joe Blow will think it's _sexy _. That's not my fault, business, concern, or interest. I could lick an ice cream because it's summer time and I crave a soft-serve vanilla cone and some guy will see me eat ice cream and fantasize about a blow job... not my problem, responsibility, concern, problem, or fault. Same goes with women who want to go out dancing with their girlfriends.


:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

The sanctity of the purse circle. AWESOME. I am enjoying this way too much tonight.










This does look fine to me. I admit I am not turned on at all with this.

Ok ok ok. I have to share a quick story. Inspired by this picture.

Last week a colleague and I made a business trip. It was Monday night in an Italian restaurant. It was us, a couple AND a woman's 77th birthday party. There were about 17 women from I'd say 75 to maybe 102. Anyway one of them kept coming to our table for help with stuff. She said she liked flirting with the men. Sigh. I kept volunteering the waiter to help but we were good sports about it. I do usually have more exciting times.


----------



## WandaJ

and you know what? I am terrible dancer! It was always my issue, although i think it was more in my mind. but with the girlfriends (who btw are awesome dancers) I relax and go with the flow, and I am having time of my life. I do not have to worry about how do I look, what men around me think about me, do not care, just enjoy myself. if we go in a group with our husbands, I am much more self conscious.
So yes, this is different quality when its just girlfriends


----------



## Miss Taken

Entropy3000 said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> The sanctity of the purse circle. AWESOME. I am enjoying this way too much tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This does look fine to me. I admit I am not turned on at all with this.


Okay Entropy, I admit I disagree with you on this issue but I did LOL (literally let out a big guffaw) on this post.


----------



## Entropy3000

WandaJ said:


> we dance as a GROUP, we laugh, we joke, we do funny things, basically getting nice work out with music and friends. it is great for mind, spirit and body. enchanted college boys are all around, but we just wave them off with a smile.
> Is it really that hard to imagine this? Maybe. I guess it is harder for guys to go dancing without girls, everybody would assume you're gay


I think in India guys dance together. Seriously.

No I can imagine this. 

My main issue is with the other kind.

I would have a big issue if I thought my spouse was really doing this and it turned out not to be true.

I have been in places where there was dancing and grinding amongst married people sans their spouses where things got out of hand. Indeed I have yet to see everything. 

So conceptually I get it.


----------



## Entropy3000

Miss Taken said:


> Okay Entropy, I admit I disagree with you on this issue but I did LOL (literally let out a big guffaw) on this post.


I hope you know I am having some fun here.

I am not as stern as I may seem sometimes.
My colleagues are a rowdy bunch of guys and ladies.
Don't ask. I do tell my wife. She mostly shakes her head. She has also met them and made clear that I am hers.

So I most humbly give my BLESSING to the sanctity of the purse circle if it truly exists in the universe this day of our Lord Augustus 30.


----------



## EleGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> Not even close. I can look all I want. In my marriage the boundary is look but don't touch. The power of touch.
> 
> Dancing is very physical and intimate. It is one on one. Dancing is a seduction. It is foreplay. It is a secret between you and your dance partner.
> 
> If I did this, dancing would not be my hobby. Women would be. Agree or not this is how many of us guys view this. If you are dancing with other men, men are your hobby.
> 
> That beats the h3ll out of watching a football game at the sports bar.


That's you. I can assure you that many, if not most women who go out in a group of women and only dance with each other are there for the dancing and their friends.

If they wanted to pick up on men they do not need to dance to do it.

For me and most of the women I know, dance is a hobby. It is for many of the men I know too.

My parents taught us to dance.. all 8 of us, 5 girls and 3 boys. ball room, Latin, jitterbug, etc,... my mom taught us jazz, ballet and made sure that we got professional instruction when it was available. There are several well known professional dancers in my family.

My father and mother used to take us events at embassies, top level military events, lots of balls put on by governments all around the world. Except in places like some in the Middle East there was always dancing. It was considered rude for a man to not ask the wives and daughters in attendance to dance. Shot, as one ambassador's wife to dance and not another's could cause an international incident.

Besides those there was always events with dancing. In my upbringing it's not something a person does only with their spouse. It's not all about sex, bump and grind and all the crass stuff. 

I just do not understand the American mindset about dancing. Just cannot get my head around it. I think it comes from the puritanical influence from a long time ago.

There are many people who love to dance.. men and women. That's what they go out for. That's why things like dance completions, and dance conventions are such big money.


----------



## EleGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
> 
> The sanctity of the purse circle. AWESOME. I am enjoying this way too much tonight.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This does look fine to me. I admit I am not turned on at all with this.


Now just hold on.. the young guys are going to start hitting up on these cougars any time now. Wait until they start bumping and grinding. It'll start any minute now. :rofl:


----------



## Entropy3000

EleGirl said:


> That's you. I can assure you that many, if not most women who go out in a group of women and only dance with each other are there for the dancing and their friends.
> 
> If they wanted to pick up on men they do not need to dance to do it.
> 
> For me and most of the women I know, dance is a hobby. It is for many of the men I know too.
> 
> My parents taught us to dance.. all 8 of us, 5 girls and 3 boys. ball room, Latin, jitterbug, etc,... my mom taught us jazz, ballet and made sure that we got professional instruction when it was available. There are several well known professional dancers in my family.
> 
> My father and mother used to take us events at embassies, top level military events, lots of balls put on by governments all around the world. Except in places like some in the Middle East there was always dancing. It was considered rude for a man to not ask the wives and daughters in attendance to dance. Shot, as one ambassador's wife to dance and not another's could cause an international incident.
> 
> Besides those there was always events with dancing. In my upbringing it's not something a person does only with their spouse. It's not all about sex, bump and grind and all the crass stuff.
> 
> I just do not understand the American mindset about dancing. Just cannot get my head around it. I think it comes from the puritanical influence from a long time ago.
> 
> There are many people who love to dance.. men and women. That's what they go out for. That's why things like dance completions, and dance conventions are such big money.


I grew up in a part of the country that encouraged boys to dance. So I think dancing is great. That said, for many of us it is about meeting and having fun with women. I also do understand the more formal dancing.

Not everyone is that sophisticated. Culture matters likely. What city you are in may make a difference.

I hope these are ok.










But if my wifey had ever come to me like this and said she and her BFF were going out and dancing in a circle wearing these I would be a tad skeptical. I would be going too. I am exaggerating on purpose here. I think a woman can look sexy yet classy at the same time. Many look anything but classy. It is truly an amazin thing. As clubby as the above are, they could be seen in NYC or South Beach.

So all kidding aside, this topic has an infinite amount of shades of gray. When we talk about some of this we have different images in our heads right or wrong.


----------



## EleGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> I grew up in a part of the country that encouraged boys to dance. So I think dancing is great. That said, for many of us it is about meeting and having fun with women. I also do understand the more formal dancing.
> 
> Not everyone is that sophisticated. Culture matters likely. What city you are in may make a difference.
> 
> I hope these are ok.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But if my wifey had ever come to me like this and said she and her BFF were going out and dancing in a circle wearing these I would be a tad skeptical. I would going too.


*Well no duh!!! *


Entropy3000 said:


> So all kidding aside, this topic has an infinite amount of shades of gray. When we talk about some of this we have different images in our heads right and wrong.


This is the point that is missed in threads like this one. Someone mentions GNO and it seems there is a rush of guys with images of the OP dressed like your two girlfriends above going out to bump and grind, probably pop ecstasy and get drunk.

I hear GNO with just the girls dancing together and I think of me, my friends and sisters doing dancing with the stars together. And ignoring the guys.

So of course people cannot agree.


----------



## Entropy3000

EleGirl said:


> Well no duh!!!
> 
> 
> This is the point that is missed in threads like this one. Someone mentions GNO and it seems there is a rush of guys with images of the OP dressed like your two girlfriends above going out to bump and grind, probably pop ecstasy and get drunk.
> 
> I hear GNO with just the girls dancing together and I think of me, my friends and sisters doing dancing with the stars together. And ignoring the guys.
> 
> So of course people cannot agree.


Exactly. No wonder folks cannot agree.

We tend to talk past one another.


----------



## AliceA

cuchulain36 said:


> That's funny because that's what I said, read my post again. Pay attention to the part where I say "anyone".


Maybe you need to read your own post again.


----------



## jaquen

cuchulain36 said:


> Genetically it's more on a woman's I believe. Partner selection and who will make her baby is a very primal thing. You don't remove tens of thousands or years of evolution with a generation of bra burning.
> 
> Look at this site nearly every post is from a guy whose wife is cheating and rarely the other way around/ I think women cheat in astronomical levels in the west.


----------



## Entropy3000

And answer this thread question. GNOs/BNOs are essential.

What that GNO involves as I have said has infinite shades of gray. This is what is up for some debate. It is not a break from marriage IMO.

How frequent is another thing. But that depends on what event is about. Lunches, shopping and so on can be several times a week. I think where one has to be careful is ho much time it infringes on the primary relationship if at all.

The agreed upon boundaries determine what is what. Just depending on trust and go with the flow is not having boundaries. Too many assumptions. Couples are often shocked what their spouse thought was ok because they assumed or had them on a pedestal. 

I think couples should seriously talk this out. Even cover things they do not anticipate. My wife is not a drinker so this covers a lot. But for the sake of argument it could be agreed by the couple that if for some reason it was not safe for them to drive, who was an acceptable person to drive them home. Even better, have a pact to call the spouse and have them come get them. To not accept "I will just crash somewhere" unless it is at a very close relatives house for example. My wife will do wine tastings with me. But she gets quite tipsy on not very much. She is no longer a 30 something, so the danger of someone putting something in her drink is less likely, but this does happen to women who do not drink. 

So having a boundary about how late one is out is not a bad idea even if your spouse never intends to do that. I worry more about my wife getting home late at night as she may be traveling through an area where her cell may not be working. We have had incidents of women at night being forced off the road and attacked. We have had women abused by police just one exit down from us recently. He was pulling women over frisking them and doing body cavity searches "looking for drugs". No gloves ... What he was doing was molesting / assaulting women AND looking to steal drugs. 

But as strange as my suggestions may seem to some, my wife on her own will call me when she is headed home and usually tells me which route she is taking. This is NOT something I have insisted on but it is a courtesy. If I expect her home by 1 am and it is approaching 2 am, I know something is wrong. She would have let me know she was running late. This is not controlling. She is being considerate and also being safe. This may seem odd depending on where others live.

Once I did have to call the police for her. Not a GNO. Long story. Family violence involved. But being able to use Find My iPhone I was able to tell police exactly where she was. 

To be honest I was probably way more understanding of my wife's trips. She went to a number of conventions during a period some time back. She was there to lecture. I have attended some of them with her. But did she have opportunity to cheat? Oh yes. Do I think she did? No. Do I really know? No. I do trust her more than anyone else but I know stranger things have happened. Would I care now? Yes. Something that crosses my mind? Only in these threads. I am the one in the risky environments discounting those trips.

My biggest issue with GNOs is that people just throw out GNO like it is a thing. There is a big difference between a wife and her wingwoman going out and play drinking games at a guys apartment and in the purse circle or having a wine tasting or going out to dinner and so on. Saying that all situations and venues have the same risk is absurd.

yadda yadda


----------



## See_Listen_Love

EleGirl said:


> As I said above, saying all women will cheat under some contrived set of circumstances is saying that no woman has the character and moral convictions to not cheat. You are saying that the only reason a woman has not cheated yet is because the magic 3 things have not come together.
> 
> We get what you saying. You cannot wiggle out of it after saying it.


Technically he is just right is his logic. 

All women will cheat (certainty of cheating in their lifetime)

is not the same as 

Any women will cheat under the 'right' circumstances (has the possibility of only a small percentage cheating)


If you say the same about men, the opinion about how many percent of them are cheating can be much larger than the percentage of woman cheating. Which seems to be the case in former decades, but nowadays women are catching up according to the statistics (have been mentioned in some other thread).


----------



## EleGirl

See_Listen_Love said:


> Technically he is just right is his logic.
> 
> All women will cheat (certainty of cheating in their lifetime)
> 
> is not the same as
> 
> Any women will cheat under the 'right' circumstances (has the possibility of only a small percentage cheating)
> 
> 
> If you say the same about men, the opinion about how many percent of them are cheating can be much larger than the percentage of woman cheating. Which seems to be the case in former decades, but nowadays women are catching up according to the statistics (have been mentioned in some other thread).



There are some women who will never cheat, not matter what. There are no circumstances under which these women will cheat.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Miss Taken said:


> Seriously, has no "I'm opposed to GNO's" TAM man, ever seen the "purse circle" on the club dance floor?
> 
> Women do - whatever the age, dance with each other at clubs. I'm not even talking about the women that grind against each other to tease or turn on men that have lesbian fantasies. I'm just talking about women that love to dance. Straight women, pretty women, young women, old women - if friends, will often dance in an all-girl (all woman) circle, purses on the floor in the center because:
> A) they like to dance and
> B) the circle means no men or other outsiders are welcome, and
> C) the circle helps everyone keep an eye on their purse/bag which is usually in the center of all the women dancing.
> 
> More often than not, a woman on the dance floor will dance with her girlfriends. If a man thinks the "purse circle" is hot, that is none of my or anyone who is dancing's business, concern and most importantly FAULT.
> 
> I could wear a skirt or dress because I like it and I'm fairly confident some Joe Blow will think it's _sexy _. That's not my fault, business, concern, or interest. I could lick an ice cream because it's summer time and I crave a soft-serve vanilla cone and some guy will see me eat ice cream and fantasize about a blow job... not my problem, responsibility, concern, problem, or fault. Same goes with women who want to go out dancing with their girlfriends.


There is a strange thing going on in this thread. Feminist remarks about the freedom and innocence of women to have their GNO and dancing at clubs.

Nice.

I hear all the time about young people breaking up their marriages. They met at bars and drinking parties, married, then, having a baby or not, KEPT GOING OUT with their boy group, or their girls group.

The touchy remarks about freedom are not repairing the mechanics of cheating. I believe that of these young people all will end up in divorce. It is the system they freely choose an desire.


----------



## Miss Taken

I just want to respond to this with an armpit fart. 

First, I have never claimed to be a feminist ever.
Second, early on in this thread I noted that I AM the faithful spouse, also known as a BS in my relationship. I manage (somehow) not to accidentally,maybe, sorta have EAs or PAs in my relationship despite going out a few times a year. Meanwhile, supposedly chaste partner who doesn't go out ever cheated on his computer at HOME.
Third, armpit fart.


----------



## naminagupta

Why not? it's a free world...

and a person has every right to enjoy themselves.


----------



## murphy5

Entropy3000 said:


> And answer this thread question. GNOs/BNOs are essential.
> 
> What that GNO involves as I have said has infinite shades of gray.
> 
> yadda yadda


Yes, would those be the 50 shades of gray i hear tell about?:rofl:


----------



## dancer gal

This is a personal anecdote, obviously, but it is an opinion and experience that some men on this message board might find truly surprising. I randomly came across this today and couldn't help but create an account after I skimmed through this thread.

I'm a woman, in my late 20's, married and I go out with my girlfriends to do various things whether it's going to a bar or dancing at the club. My husband is generally invited to anything I do, but if the event is a GNO he obviously wouldn't come.

According to the men on this thread this is not a valid opinion or attitude, but when I'm out dancing with my friends, I don't do it for attention from other males. In fact, I don't even notice them. If someone tries to dance with me or touch me, I make them back off or take their hands away and assertively state that I am not interested. I don't accept drinks from other men because I'm not interested in flirting with them (and can afford my own drinks).

I also don't really chat men up, though I have seen that some women do this. Since I am younger than most people here, I am fully aware of the hookup culture of my generation and if/when a single woman in my group of friends decides to chat up a guy and dance with him/take him home, that's fine but inevitably she ends up leaving the group to do that. None of my married friends or friends in serious relationships are the types of people who would do something like this and they know better than to think that this would be acceptable in our group of friends.

And let me say, on a personal note, that I have never thought highly of meeting men at a bar or a club. I think whether someone is into that sort of thing depends on the person and will determine whether someone will realistically have a possibility of cheating in that environment. For myself, that possibility is pretty nonexistent, not only because I am there to hang out with my girlfriends in a party atmosphere, but also because I perceive the men who go to bars and clubs to hook up with women to be of a lower standard than what I am used to and what I would go for. I hope that doesn't offend anyone, but that's just how I see it.

As for why we go out dancing and don't do it at home? We go out dancing because I guess we're more partying types than some of the other posters here and we like to go to a place that has a loud party atmosphere. Most times for GNO it's a club, but we also regularly have house parties (in which case our significant others are obviously invited come) and can just have dance parties while hanging out during a girls' night at home.

In addition to that, but I dance as a sport in my free time. With a partner. In closed position. Yes, I guess it can be called intimate but it's certainly not sexual and there are no sexual or romantic feelings in this partnership. Closed position is required, otherwise I wouldn't pick up the proper signals. 

I guess I must have a lax marriage but my partner and I trust each other not to cross certain, obvious lines in our framework. I don't think I need to restrict his social activities to do that and he doesn't think he needs to restrict mine. For us it's working and I certainly hope it keeps working in the long run.



cuchulain36 said:


> Genetically it's more on a woman's I believe. Partner selection and who will make her baby is a very primal thing. You don't remove tens of thousands or years of evolution with a generation of bra burning.
> 
> Look at this site nearly every post is from a guy whose wife is cheating and rarely the other way around/ I think women cheat in astronomical levels in the west.


Genetically? This doesn't make sense biologically. I really shouldn't dignify this crapy with a response but it's just so misguided I don't know if I can help it. If you're trying to make an argument based on biology, at least attempt to say something logical. I have a degree in biology and have taken classes on animal behavior so I can tell you simply that I don't think this notion that women are programmed to go out and cheat has a solid biological basis.

If you think about it biologically, female mammals have a lot more invested when it comes to creating and nurturing offspring. They're the ones who will carry the baby for 9 months and are significantly more likely to be stuck raising it once it is born. For males, things are a bit easier. They can have sex with as many women as they can keep up with and impregnate them all without bearing any extra physical burden of carrying and raising those children if they choose not to be involved. I'm not saying that to make judgments, this is purely a biological argument.

If this is the case, and it is, then females in general would be expected to choose the male partners they mate with more wisely than males would be expected to choose females. And this, in general, is what we find when we're studying animals.

From that, it follows that if a woman has a quality husband at home who possesses qualities she wants to pass on to her offspring, it doesn't make sense for her to go to random places and start sleeping around with strangers whom she has not had the opportunity to vet as heavily.

For men, biologically it makes sense that they would sleep with anyone who passes a certain bar or anyone that moves if they really want to maximize passing their genes on to the next generation.

So it would follow that if anyone was "genetically programmed" to cheat and cheat often, it would be the men.

If you're going to make an argument about "genetics" at least say something halfway intelligent. Furthermore, self-selected sample on an internet message board does not make for any sort of proper statistical analysis and for someone to think that it does is more than laughable.



WandaJ said:


> wow. with my girlfriends we have tradition of going out for our b-days. To the clubs, no husbands. We are having time of our lives, ten 35-45 year old ladies, old married with kids, dancing until our legs hurt, completely not interested in random pick up. and becaues we are not interested, and because we all have someone to go back to we can really relax and enjoy ourselves.
> Our husbands are allowed to go out too, although they prefer sport bars.





Miss Taken said:


> Seriously, has no "I'm opposed to GNO's" TAM man, ever seen the "purse circle" on the club dance floor?
> 
> Women do - whatever the age, dance with each other at clubs. I'm not even talking about the women that grind against each other to tease or turn on men that have lesbian fantasies. I'm just talking about women that love to dance. Straight women, pretty women, young women, old women - if friends, will often dance in an all-girl (all woman) circle, purses on the floor in the center because:
> A) they like to dance and
> B) the circle means no men or other outsiders are welcome, and
> C) the circle helps everyone keep an eye on their purse/bag which is usually in the center of all the women dancing.
> 
> More often than not, a woman on the dance floor will dance with her girlfriends. If a man thinks the "purse circle" is hot, that is none of my or anyone who is dancing's business, concern and most importantly FAULT.
> 
> I could wear a skirt or dress because I like it and I'm fairly confident some Joe Blow will think it's _sexy _. That's not my fault, business, concern, or interest. I could lick an ice cream because it's summer time and I crave a soft-serve vanilla cone and some guy will see me eat ice cream and fantasize about a blow job... not my problem, responsibility, concern, problem, or fault. Same goes with women who want to go out dancing with their girlfriends.





WandaJ said:


> we dance as a GROUP, we laugh, we joke, we do funny things, basically getting nice work out with music and friends. it is great for mind, spirit and body. enchanted college boys are all around, but we just wave them off with a smile.
> Is it really that hard to imagine this? Maybe. I guess it is harder for guys to go dancing without girls, everybody would assume you're gay





EleGirl said:


> That's you. I can assure you that many, if not most women who go out in a group of women and only dance with each other are there for the dancing and their friends.
> 
> If they wanted to pick up on men they do not need to dance to do it.
> 
> For me and most of the women I know, dance is a hobby. It is for many of the men I know too.
> 
> My parents taught us to dance.. all 8 of us, 5 girls and 3 boys. ball room, Latin, jitterbug, etc,... my mom taught us jazz, ballet and made sure that we got professional instruction when it was available. There are several well known professional dancers in my family.
> 
> My father and mother used to take us events at embassies, top level military events, lots of balls put on by governments all around the world. Except in places like some in the Middle East there was always dancing. It was considered rude for a man to not ask the wives and daughters in attendance to dance. Shot, as one ambassador's wife to dance and not another's could cause an international incident.
> 
> Besides those there was always events with dancing. In my upbringing it's not something a person does only with their spouse. It's not all about sex, bump and grind and all the crass stuff.
> 
> I just do not understand the American mindset about dancing. Just cannot get my head around it. I think it comes from the puritanical influence from a long time ago.
> 
> There are many people who love to dance.. men and women. That's what they go out for. That's why things like dance completions, and dance conventions are such big money.


:iagree: I agree with all of these posts. Well said, ladies.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Chaparral said:


> Look up infidelity statistics. Men and women bothe cheat at about the same rate. Depending on most studies, 30-40%. Some studies have gone as high as fifty percent. When polled, over 70% of both men and women admit they would cheat if they knew they wouldn't get caught. Put those folks in a club and mix with alcohol. Been there and done that. If you have been in a club and you trust your SO there with out you..............


Every respectable statistical study I have seen puts women lower than men. 


_1994 General Social Survey of 884 men and 1288 women, 78% of men and 88% of women denied ever having extramarital (EM) sex (Wiederman, 1997). The 1991-1996 General Social Surveys report similar data; in those years 13% of respondents admitted to having had EM sex (Atkins, Baucom, & Jacobson, 2001).

Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, and Michaels (1994) and Wiederman (1997), both using nationally representative samples, found that approximately 20–25% of men and 10–15% of women reported engaging in extramarital sex during their marriage._

From the General Social Survey to Kinsey, all say the same thing; men cheat more than women. I would like to see where you are getting your stats from.


----------



## Mostlycontent

Chaparral said:


> Look up infidelity statistics. Men and women bothe cheat at about the same rate. Depending on most studies, 30-40%. Some studies have gone as high as fifty percent. When polled, over 70% of both men and women admit they would cheat if they knew they wouldn't get caught. Put those folks in a club and mix with alcohol. Been there and done that. If you have been in a club and you trust your SO there with out you..............



I'm just not sure I'm buying these numbers. A lot of poll data is just way off and whose to know how truthful most people are really being. 

As for the 70% that say they would do it if they knew they wouldn't get caught, I believe that's also a bit of an exaggeration. I mean really, how many people would murder someone, rape someone or rob a bank if you told them they'd get away with it? You'd likely get a fairly decent percentage that said they'd do it but in actually, the number that would really do it would be significantly lower.


----------



## Mostlycontent

johnnycomelately said:


> Every respectable statistical study I have seen puts women lower than men.
> 
> 
> _1994 General Social Survey of 884 men and 1288 women, 78% of men and 88% of women denied ever having extramarital (EM) sex (Wiederman, 1997). The 1991-1996 General Social Surveys report similar data; in those years 13% of respondents admitted to having had EM sex (Atkins, Baucom, & Jacobson, 2001).
> 
> Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, and Michaels (1994) and Wiederman (1997), both using nationally representative samples, found that approximately 20–25% of men and 10–15% of women reported engaging in extramarital sex during their marriage._
> 
> From the General Social Survey to Kinsey, all say the same thing; men cheat more than women. I would like to see where you are getting your stats from.


I don't disagree with your point but you do realize the data being used is 20 years old. There are more women in the workplace now than 20 years ago, which means more opportunity to stray.

I'm not suggesting that the data will have changed because I really don't know but this data may be a bit outdated. I also wonder how truthful people really are in these polls and studies as well. I just think men are more likely to be honest perhaps when it comes to admitting anything sex related than women may be. That is pure speculation on my part and not based in any fact but just what I think may explain the difference in numbers. It could just as easily be the other way around.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Mostlycontent said:


> I don't disagree with your point but you do realize the data being used is 20 years old. There are more women in the workplace now than 20 years ago, which means more opportunity to stray.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that the data will have changed because I really don't know but this data may be a bit outdated. I also wonder how truthful people really are in these polls and studies as well. I just think men are more likely to be honest perhaps when it comes to admitting anything sex related than women may be. That is pure speculation on my part and not based in any fact but just what I think may explain the difference in numbers. It could just as easily be the other way around.


The newer studies still show a gap, although that gap is closing somewhat. That change is thought to be down to opportunity, more women in the workplace, more independence etc. 

I think the difference is that men cheat more than women. Period.


----------



## Entropy3000

No idea if ANY statistics cover EAs. Which are hard to objectively quantify period. 

Any study 20 years old does not take into account a more balanced work force, social media and things like the abundance of personal trainers available to the masses. These are only a few major societal changes in the last 20 years. They are significant.

Again, I tend to be the voice about EAs. Only because they tend to be the silent killers of many relationships.

Folks seem focused on PIV sex. EAs may or may not lead to that. But they harm relationships none the less.

Notice I did not include in the above anything about GNOs either. Though I suspect there is a trend that may impact infidelity along these lines also. But in my opinion it is the type of GNOs that are more of the drunken variety with men that seem very obvious. I do not think this mean one does not have GNOs period. It just means that there are things people disguise as GNOs that are really not.

Then there is this trend / spin that wants to insist that we do not discriminate in any way gender wise in our personal lives. WTH?


----------



## vellocet

richie33 said:


> Given the right connection at the right time with the right guy any woman will be unfaithful, it's in their DNA.
> 
> Here you go


Well I am not sure I believe that. But if it were true, it would just reinforce my decision to never commit to a relationship again.


----------



## Entropy3000

richie33 said:


> Given the right connection at the right time with the right guy any woman will be unfaithful, it's in their DNA.
> 
> Here you go


It is in peoples DNA. Not just women. Folks who disagree just limit what those circumstances might be. They do exist. Some folks are more resistant than others certainly.

The people most vulnerable are the ones that deny the vulnerability. Therefore they do not see the risk.


----------



## johnnycomelately

Entropy3000 said:


> It is in peoples DNA. Not just women. Folks who disagree just limit what those circumstances might be. They do exist. Some folks are more resistant than others certainly.
> 
> The people most vulnerable are the ones that deny the vulnerability. Therefore they do not see the risk.


Well said. Fidelity is not natural, better to accept that and be prepared to resist your urges than to blame marriage, spouse's failings, fate or whatever when you have a crush on someone. Just your biology playing up and it will pass.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Miss Taken said:


> I just want to respond to this with an armpit fart.
> 
> First, I have never claimed to be a feminist ever.
> Second, early on in this thread I noted that I AM the faithful spouse, also known as a BS in my relationship. I manage (somehow) not to accidentally,maybe, sorta have EAs or PAs in my relationship despite going out a few times a year. Meanwhile, supposedly chaste partner who doesn't go out ever cheated on his computer at HOME.
> Third, armpit fart.


Since I did not adress you personally, something must have hit home. 'Not my problem', in your words.

First: Did I say you were a feminist? Feminist remarks is something of an other order.

Second: Technically you are an example of the mentioned GNO relation and having a cheating partner, so thx for the example, but why such a blindfolded view?

Third: Good luck with that kind of arguing. I will help you a lot in your life.


----------



## AliceA

See_Listen_Love said:


> Since I did not adress you personally, something must have hit home. 'Not my problem', in your words.
> 
> First: Did I say you were a feminist? Feminist remarks is something of an other order.
> 
> Second: Technically you are an example of the mentioned GNO relation and having a cheating partner, so thx for the example, but why such a blindfolded view?
> 
> Third: Good luck with that kind of arguing. I will help you a lot in your life.


Ugh, can we cut out the attempts to use feminism as a way to shut women down, just for once, that'd be f*cking lovely.

It's like a man saying he went out for a BNO and some males responding with general, yeah, BNOs are no big deal and the women jumping up and saying, 'ooooh, here come the masculist remarks'.

It's not called feminism for a woman to state her opinion on a topic, it's called an *opinion*, and yeah, apparently women are allowed to have them. Nothing wrong with people striving for equality between the sexes, but let's not equate an opinion about GNO/BNOs with the struggle for one sex to have the right to vote, or earn equal pay for equal work etc.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

breeze said:


> Ugh, can we cut out the attempts to use feminism as a way to shut women down, just for once, that'd be f*cking lovely.
> 
> It's like a man saying he went out for a BNO and some males responding with general, yeah, BNOs are no big deal and the women jumping up and saying, 'ooooh, here come the masculist remarks'.
> 
> It's not called feminism for a woman to state her opinion on a topic, it's called an *opinion*, and yeah, apparently women are allowed to have them. Nothing wrong with people striving for equality between the sexes, but let's not equate an opinion about GNO/BNOs with the struggle for one sex to have the right to vote, or earn equal pay for equal work etc.


If reasonable discussion of a topic is obscured by shooting from the hip with blindsided attacks of anyone perceived to threaten the freedom, the rights and equality of women,

than I just call that feminist remarks.


----------



## Miss Taken

See_Listen_Love said:


> Since I did not adress you personally, something must have hit home. 'Not my problem', in your words.


You quoted one of my posts in its entirety. Typically when people quote others in a reply, it’s to address the person that they’re quoting, at least in part. (Case in point would be how I am now quoting you and addressing YOU personally). 



See_Listen_Love said:


> First: Did I say you were a feminist? Feminist remarks is something of an other order.


Fair enough, you didn’t directly call me a feminist. However it seems to me that “feminist remarks” can be read to mean either remarks that are feminist in nature OR remarks by a feminist. I took it as the latter. If you meant the former, fine but it didn’t make your post any better since you said this: 



See_Listen_Love said:


> There is a strange thing going on in this thread. Feminist remarks about the freedom and innocence of women to have their GNO and dancing at clubs.


followed by “Nice.” Which I took as sarcastic, it seemed to me that “feminist remarks” was a put down or a slight whether directed to me or women in general. I do notice a common theme on this board by some men on this board where “feminist” is akin to b!tch or some other less than savoury person. Your post to me was just another example of that. Like treatment begets like treatment. It seems to me that you can’t take women expressing themselves seriously. It was hard to take you seriously as a result, hence “armpit fart”. 

Also, this particularly the bolded part:



See_Listen_Love said:


> The touchy remarks about freedom are not repairing the mechanics of cheating. *I believe that of these young people all will end up in divorce. It is the system they freely choose an desire.*


Is difficult to take seriously. All of these young people who sometimes go out dancing will end up in divorce and they choose it. Really? It’s simply not true. Barring one’s spouse from going out, or using Facebook or having some opposite sexed friends or coworkers also does not repair the mechanics of cheating. You can’t control someone into faithfulness or manufacture fidelity. Of course you can do things to try to “affair proof your marriage” but someone who wants to cheat will cheat. Just like you can eat all the right foods, abstain from smoking, drinking, and exercise frequently and protect your skin from the sun and still get cancer.



See_Listen_Love said:


> Second: Technically you are an example of the mentioned GNO relation and having a cheating partner, so thx for the example, but why such a blindfolded view?


On the contrary. My example of me going out sometimes, drinking and dancing and never cheating vs. his staying home all the time and still cheating highlights that going out is NOT the problem. 

Temptation can be found anywhere. Even within the supposed safety of our own homes. Cheating may happen during G/BNO’s but there are also many times where it doesn’t happen and won’t happen. It’s not the activity that’s a threat to a marriage it’s the character, integrity, moral standards and boundaries of the person participating.



See_Listen_Love said:


> Third: Good luck with that kind of arguing. I will help you a lot in your life.


Well, kettles and pots and stones in glass houses, as per my reasons above.


----------



## AliceA

See_Listen_Love said:


> If reasonable discussion of a topic is obscured by shooting from the hip with blindsided attacks of anyone perceived to threaten the freedom, the rights and equality of women,
> 
> than I just call that feminist remarks.


Of course you perceive it that way. I'm just thankful my DH wouldn't.


----------



## kennethk

New comer to this thread.

My wife has no problems with me going out, not that i do much of that.

I on the other hand have major problems with her going out.
There's been "history" so i keep a watchful eye. 

I guess her boundaries are not as strong as mine.

Her tendency is to get close to people while i tend to keep some distance. Don't mind a dinner with a girlfriend, but GNO to a bar or club? No Way.


----------



## vellocet

Precisely Ken

Nothing wrong with a girls/boys night out, as long as the activities and behaviors appropriate and respectful of their committed partner.

And as far as I'm concerned, any activity that can be seen as attention wh0ring, is not appropriate. You want attention from the opposite sex.....stay single. Simple as that.

And no, I'm not talking about wanting to feel attractive to others. I'm talking about putting yourself out there and inviting interaction.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Miss Taken said:


> You quoted one of my posts in its entirety. Typically when people quote others in a reply, it’s to address the person that they’re quoting, at least in part. (Case in point would be how I am now quoting you and addressing YOU personally).
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough, you didn’t directly call me a feminist. However it seems to me that “feminist remarks” can be read to mean either remarks that are feminist in nature OR remarks by a feminist. I took it as the latter. If you meant the former, fine but it didn’t make your post any better since you said this:
> 
> 
> 
> followed by “Nice.” Which I took as sarcastic, it seemed to me that “feminist remarks” was a put down or a slight whether directed to me or women in general. I do notice a common theme on this board by some men on this board where “feminist” is akin to b!tch or some other less than savoury person. Your post to me was just another example of that. Like treatment begets like treatment. It seems to me that you can’t take women expressing themselves seriously. It was hard to take you seriously as a result, hence “armpit fart”.
> 
> Also, this particularly the bolded part:
> 
> 
> 
> Is difficult to take seriously. All of these young people who sometimes go out dancing will end up in divorce and they choose it. Really? It’s simply not true. Barring one’s spouse from going out, or using Facebook or having some opposite sexed friends or coworkers also does not repair the mechanics of cheating. You can’t control someone into faithfulness or manufacture fidelity. Of course you can do things to try to “affair proof your marriage” but someone who wants to cheat will cheat. Just like you can eat all the right foods, abstain from smoking, drinking, and exercise frequently and protect your skin from the sun and still get cancer.
> 
> 
> 
> On the contrary. My example of me going out sometimes, drinking and dancing and never cheating vs. his staying home all the time and still cheating highlights that going out is NOT the problem.
> 
> Temptation can be found anywhere. Even within the supposed safety of our own homes. Cheating may happen during G/BNO’s but there are also many times where it doesn’t happen and won’t happen. It’s not the activity that’s a threat to a marriage it’s the character, integrity, moral standards and boundaries of the person participating.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, kettles and pots and stones in glass houses, as per my reasons above.


It is hard to react to your arguments, because you translate and expand my points to something I literally did not state, and then react to it. So your reactions are against something I did not say that way or not at all.

There must be a name for that.

Edit: "Faulty generalization is a mode of thinking that takes knowledge from one group's or person's experiences and incorrectly extends it to another."


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Example: 




Miss Taken said:


> Also, this particularly the bolded part:
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *See_Listen_Love*
> _ The touchy remarks about freedom are not repairing the mechanics of cheating. *I believe that of these young people all will end up in divorce. It is the system they freely choose an desire.*_
> 
> Is difficult to take seriously. _All of these young people who sometimes go out dancing will end up in divorce and they choose it_. Really? It’s simply not true.
> 
> First that is not what I said. I said that I see a lot of young people, married, going out on BNO/GNO as a standard, ending up in divorce.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hear all the time about young people breaking up their marriages. They met at bars and drinking parties, married, then, having a baby or not, KEPT GOING OUT with their boy group, or their girls group.
> 
> 
> 
> I said that I believe all who do that will end up in divorce. The truth of that is not to argue for you, you could not know if I see that or not, and if I believe that or not.
> 
> Barring one’s spouse from going out, or using Facebook or having some opposite sexed friends or coworkers also does not repair the mechanics of cheating.
> 
> I did not say anything in that direction.
> 
> You can’t control someone into faithfulness or manufacture fidelity.
> 
> 
> I did not say anything in that direction. In other posts I express exactly the opposite of that.
> 
> Of course you can do things to try to “affair proof your marriage” but someone who wants to cheat will cheat. Just like you can eat all the right foods, abstain from smoking, drinking, and exercise frequently and protect your skin from the sun and still get cancer.
> 
> I did not say anything in that direction.
Click to expand...


----------



## FormerSelf

My issue with B/GNOs would more or less be determined by the location(s) of said B/GNO and the accompanying members. If my wife decided to go out with church girlfriends somewhere that's one thing, but if she is going out with a mixed group of singles who are ready to mingle in a social meat-market atmosphere, I would probably be uncomfortable. 

Also, if I happened to show discomfort and she responds with "F.U., I'm going anyway"...then that would be problematic versus having complete accountability over what, when, where, why, and how of the GNO. A trusting relationship should be able to be frank about potential hazards and the going-out party should be able to openly share details without feelings of resentment. If B/GNO details are sketchy and attitudes are similar to a teenager demanding space...then something is off.


----------



## Personal

Miss Taken said:


> Also, this particularly the bolded part:
> 
> 
> 
> See_Listen_Love said:
> 
> 
> 
> The touchy remarks about freedom are not repairing the mechanics of cheating. *I believe that of these young people all will end up in divorce. It is the system they freely choose an desire.*
> 
> 
> 
> Is difficult to take seriously. All of these young people who sometimes go out dancing will end up in divorce and they choose it. Really? It’s simply not true. Barring one’s spouse from going out, or using Facebook or having some opposite sexed friends or coworkers also does not repair the mechanics of cheating. You can’t control someone into faithfulness or manufacture fidelity. Of course you can do things to try to “affair proof your marriage” but someone who wants to cheat will cheat. Just like you can eat all the right foods, abstain from smoking, drinking, and exercise frequently and protect your skin from the sun and still get cancer.
Click to expand...

Exactly! You cannot prevent someone from being unfaithful.

Spouses are faithful in marriage because they choose to be faithful. It is ill conceived to believe that a spouse becomes wayward because of influences beyond their control. Wayward spouses are unfaithful through choice not accident. To believe a wayward spouse strays because that bad man or woman made them do it. Is to believe that the wayward spouse is a puppet and not an independent human being.

My wife and I have a number of opposite sex friends, which include some from former relationships. On occasion we both go out independently of one another and are also at times separated through having to travel for work. Yet I have always remained faithful and can say we are close, enjoy each others company and have a terrific sex life. Plus as far as I am aware which I have no reason to doubt, my wife has remained faithful to me as well.

My question to See_Listen_Love is, how long have I got before my wife and I will divorce? Considering my wife and I for over 18 years (married over 15) have lived what he considers to be the way to divorce.

P.S. My wife and I had a terrific day together since she had a Rostered Day Off (RDO). We enjoyed sex in the morning, then drove a few hundred kilometres out and back to a nearby town to have lunch and do some shopping. Before coming home to our kids in the late afternoon after their day at school.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Personal said:


> My wife and I have a number of opposite sex friends, which include some from former relationships. On occasion we both go out independently of one another and are also at times separated through having to travel for work. Yet I have always remained faithful and can say we are close, enjoy each others company and have a terrific sex life. Plus as far as I am aware which I have no reason to doubt, my wife has remained faithful to me as well.
> 
> My question to See_Listen_Love is, how long have I got before my wife and I will divorce? Considering my wife and I for over 18 years (married over 15) have lived what he considers to be the way to divorce.


Since you are married 15 years, you are not in the category I mentioned something about:



> I hear all the time about young people breaking up their marriages. They met at bars and drinking parties, married, then, having a baby or not, KEPT GOING OUT with their boy group, or their girls group.



Besides that, I mention they keep going out like they did before with their boy or girls group. Another significant difference.

Another example of Faulty Generalization I am afraid.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

I would be delighted to discuss anything with anybody, but it is very tiring to have to react to things I did not express. What is the trouble with reading and some logic? Some people seem to have their arguments ready like ammo, looking for some one to vent it on. Makes no sense in my world.


----------



## Personal

See_Listen_Love said:


> Since you are married 15 years, you are not in the category I mentioned something about:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Besides that, I mention they keep going out like they did before with their boy or girls group. Another significant difference.
> 
> Another example of Faulty Generalization I am afraid.


Actually when we were first married (and young) we continued to go out often with our own friends separately and as couple while happily being inebriated on plenty of those occasions. Having our first child likewise didn't prevent us going out on occasion either. Albeit usually separately since I was away with the Army quite often in the first three years of our marriage.

So I'm pretty sure we fit your criteria.

As far as I am concerned you are applying faulty generalisations.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

QED

Let the thread continue without this tiring non-discussion.


----------



## jaquen

Personal said:


> Exactly! You cannot prevent someone from being unfaithful.
> 
> Spouses are faithful in marriage because they choose to be faithful. It is ill conceived to believe that a spouse becomes wayward because of influences beyond their control. Wayward spouses are unfaithful through choice not accident. To believe a wayward spouse strays because that bad man or woman made them do it. Is to believe that the wayward spouse is a puppet and not an independent human being.
> 
> My wife and I have a number of opposite sex friends, which include some from former relationships. On occasion we both go out independently of one another and are also at times separated through having to travel for work. Yet I have always remained faithful and can say we are close, enjoy each others company and have a terrific sex life. Plus as far as I am aware which I have no reason to doubt, my wife has remained faithful to me as well.
> 
> My question to See_Listen_Love is, how long have I got before my wife and I will divorce? Considering my wife and I for over 18 years (married over 15) have lived what he considers to be the way to divorce.
> 
> P.S. My wife and I had a terrific day together since she had a Rostered Day Off (RDO). We enjoyed sex in the morning, then drove a few hundred kilometres out and back to a nearby town to have lunch and do some shopping. Before coming home to our kids in the late afternoon after their day at school.


The difference is that you and your spouse are likely in a very good marriage.

In my experience with TAM many, if not most, of the people on this board are in dysfunctional marriages. Lots of people who are dealing with sexual compatibility issues, deep lack of trust, infidelity on the part of one or both, marriages that have been wounded, scarred, and disfigured. Lots of people's marriages on this board are either dying or recovering from a near death experience. And lots of people here are staying in corpse marriages that should be laid to rest.

That's the often unspoken undercurrent of these kinds of debates. The "rules" can seem restrictive and rather foolish to those of us who are in healthy, strong relationships that haven't been cursed by some of the more common ills seen here on TAM. But for those who are struggling to make broken marriages work, or who are carrying scars from old marriages dead and buried, these "rules" give a sense of comfort and boundary.

A thin person, who has never had a weight problem, will be baffled by all diet rules and regulations common amongst those who have struggled with their weight. It's the same thing here.


----------



## Miss Taken

> See_Listen_Love said:
> 
> 
> 
> The touchy remarks about freedom are not repairing the mechanics of cheating. I believe that of these young people all will end up in divorce. It is the system they freely choose an desire.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Miss Taken said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is difficult to take seriously. All of these young people who sometimes go out dancing will end up in divorce and they choose it. Really? It’s simply not true.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See_Listen_Love said:
> 
> 
> 
> First that is not what I said. I said that I see a lot of young people, married, going out on BNO/GNO as a standard, ending up in divorce.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Actually, that's not what you said. You said:



See_Listen_Love said:


> I hear all the time about young people breaking up their marriages. They met at bars and drinking parties, married, then, having a baby or not, KEPT GOING OUT with their boy group, or their girls group.[...]* I believe that of these young people all will end up in divorce. It is the system they freely choose an desire.*


And there is a subtle difference between this and the more moderate stance you take in the explanation you give above but I digress. 

Anyway, take away my paraphrase of your *initial *quote, since you seem to feel it was misconstrued but it was still a “faulty generalization”, (your term). Hence I could not take it seriously. 



> Miss Taken said:
> 
> 
> 
> Barring one’s spouse from going out, or using Facebook or having some opposite sexed friends or coworkers also does not repair the mechanics of cheating.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See_Listen_Love said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did not say anything in that direction.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Where did I say that you did? Or is it possible that I was adding to the discussion about the mechanics of cheating? :scratchhead:



> Miss Taken said:
> 
> 
> 
> You can’t control someone into faithfulness or manufacture fidelity.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See_Listen_Love said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did not say anything in that direction. In other posts I express exactly the opposite of that.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I repeat myself. Did I say that you said that or could I have been adding to the discussion?



> Miss Taken said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course you can do things to try to “affair proof your marriage” but someone who wants to cheat will cheat. Just like you can eat all the right foods, abstain from smoking, drinking, and exercise frequently and protect your skin from the sun and still get cancer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> See_Listen_Love said:
> 
> 
> 
> I did not say anything in that direction.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Wash, rinse and repeat.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Miss Taken said:


> And there is a subtle difference between this and the more moderate stance you take in the explanation you give above but I digress.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hear all the time about young people breaking up their marriages. They met at bars and drinking parties, married, then, having a baby or not, KEPT GOING OUT with their boy group, or their girls group.[...] I believe that of these young people all will end up in divorce. It is the system they freely choose an desire.
> 
> 
> 
> Wash, rinse and repeat.
Click to expand...

No there is not. I state again"

Based on what I see and hear around me:

I state that I believe that: Young couples going out with their boy and girl groups on weekend nights, friday, saturday, who marry, having a baby or not, keep going out in their old week pattern with their respective boy or girls group, are all ending up in divorce.

Simple and not moderate indeed.

It is actually not that daring to say. If statistics tell us that half of marriages end in divorce, then the probability in these kinds of groups will be many times higher than in other groups.


----------



## CluelessWif

Here is what too many people are not considering:

1. Younger woman married to an older man.
2. Husband does not want you to have outside relationships (isolating you).
3. Husband does not "allow" you to go out without him (controlling you)
4. When you attempt to make plans with friends he throws a fit until you cancel (emotional blackmail)

These are very concerning symptoms and indicative of early stage domestic violence. You need to be really damned careful here.

I am going to tell you a few things. First, you are an adult. You have the right to personal autonomy and freedom. If he is restricting your movements without your input or agreement then he is not a partner, he is a boss. You are clearly not happy with this (I don't blame you, I would be livid) and you are not going to get happier with time. Something has to give. Lastly, people will tell you that it is not all about you, and that is bull****. A marriage is a partnership, or it should be, but yours is not. Right now it needs to be about you, what you want and need to feel comfortable, safe, and happy. 

Ask yourself what you want. Is this marriage worth being under house arrest and subjected to tantrums?


----------



## CluelessWif

Entropy3000 said:


> It is in peoples DNA. Not just women. Folks who disagree just limit what those circumstances might be. They do exist. Some folks are more resistant than others certainly.
> 
> The people most vulnerable are the ones that deny the vulnerability. Therefore they do not see the risk.


I love how you quote your opinion as if it were fact. It is not in my DNA. I have been attracted to other men. Some of them were attracted to me, and some of those happened during a rough time in the marriage.

Did I consider it, for even a moment? God, no. I have ethics. I will not, have not ever cheated. I have no desire to be a rat bastard. You are straight up wrong when you say that cheating is in my DNA. Hell, I don't even like to be touched, not even casually, by people outside my family.

Justify your own feelings any way you want, but don't pretend they are universal. Stop projecting.


----------



## Miss Taken

See_Listen_Love said:


> No there is not. I state again"
> 
> Based on what I see and hear around me:
> 
> I state that I believe that: Young couples going out with their boy and girl groups on weekend nights, friday, saturday, who marry, having a baby or not, keep going out in their old week pattern with their respective boy or girls group, are all ending up in divorce.
> 
> Simple and not moderate indeed.
> 
> It is actually not that daring to say. If statistics tell us that half of marriages end in divorce, then the probability in these kinds of groups will be many times higher than in other groups.


I don't see either of us reaching consensus in this circular argument so if you drop it so will I.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I think the vast majority have some kind of marital discord and issues which they keep hidden. I think it leads the husband to allow more and more abuse of the marriage into his life and lowers his expectations. i think he lets his guard down and then she is free of responsibility, but has the security of a husband who believes in her and supports her. The stage is then set for her to freely decide when, where and how to accomplish anything she wants to keep hidden. I think this is the legacy of your topic of heated discussion. Hopefully, it will be different some day. All the good is overshadowed by jockeying for power positions.


----------



## jaquen

See_Listen_Love said:


> No there is not. I state again"
> 
> Based on what I see and hear around me:
> 
> I state that I believe that: Young couples going out with their boy and girl groups on weekend nights, friday, saturday, who marry, having a baby or not, keep going out in their old week pattern with their respective boy or girls group, are all ending up in divorce.
> 
> Simple and not moderate indeed.


Breaking your point down further doesn't make it sound any less ridiculous.

Give me a statistic, not some wild opinion, that shows ALL young couple marriages will end in divorce if they continue weekly G/BNO. 

Please, I would love some proof of this. Is your "belief" based on anything substantial at all?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

jaquen said:


> Breaking your point down further doesn't make it sound any less ridiculous.
> 
> Give me a statistic, not some wild opinion, that shows ALL young couple marriages will end in divorce if they continue weekly G/BNO.
> 
> Please, I would love some proof of this. Is your "belief" based on anything substantial at all?


To you my experiences are not substantial, to me they are very substantial.

I have no statistics, other then divorce among young couples spreading like disease nowadays. Thirty years ago: not even heard of it in our community.


----------



## johnnycomelately

See_Listen_Love said:


> To you my experiences are not substantial, to me they are very substantial.
> 
> I have no statistics, other then divorce among young couples spreading like disease nowadays. Thirty years ago: not even heard of it in our community.


Divorce is spreading for a lot of reasons; I don't think you can blame rising divorce on people going down to the pub.


----------



## jaquen

See_Listen_Love said:


> To you my experiences are not substantial, to me they are very substantial.
> 
> I have no statistics, other then divorce among young couples spreading like disease nowadays. Thirty years ago: not even heard of it in our community.


Divorce is spreading worldwide, across many communities, in nearly all age brackets.

How does a worldwide shift in the view of marital commitment equal all marriages between young people, who continue to do nights out with friends weekly, will end in divorce?


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Yup, we are there again. It is unbelievable how this turns in circles. Is there anything wrong with the American school system, logical thinking seems to have gone here.




See_Listen_Love said:


> It is hard to react to your arguments, because you translate and expand my points to something I literally did not state, and then react to it. So your reactions are against something I did not say that way or not at all.
> 
> There must be a name for that.
> 
> Edit: "Faulty generalization is a mode of thinking that takes knowledge from one group's or person's experiences and incorrectly extends it to another."


----------



## johnnycomelately

See_Listen_Love said:


> Yup, we are there again. It is unbelievable how this turns in circles. Is there anything wrong with the American school system, logical thinking seems to have gone here.


I'm not American, if you included me in your insult, and the logical fault is with _your_ thinking. "People go out on GNOs/BNOs, people get divorced, therefore GNOs/BNOs cause divorce." It is a deductive fallacy.


----------



## Personal

johnnycomelately said:


> See_Listen_Love said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, we are there again. It is unbelievable how this turns in circles. Is there anything wrong with the American school system, logical thinking seems to have gone here.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not American, if you included me in your insult, and the logical fault is with _your_ thinking. "People go out on GNOs/BNOs, people get divorced, therefore GNOs/BNOs cause divorce." It is a deductive fallacy.
Click to expand...

:iagree:

P.S. I'm not an American either.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

johnnycomelately said:


> I'm not American, if you included me in your insult, and the logical fault is with _your_ thinking. "People go out on GNOs/BNOs, people get divorced, therefore GNOs/BNOs cause divorce." It is a deductive fallacy.


I cannot understand why someone would say that. There is no logic, no reason, no intelligence at all in phrasing 

"People go out on GNOs/BNOs, people get divorced, therefore GNOs/BNOs cause divorce." 

as a compilation of what I would have stated.

Like I repeated, again: I did not say that or something like it.

It seems your input system is really not capable of understanding some simple logic even, it is utterly incomprehensible why you could not do that.
:scratchhead:

I am dead serious.


----------



## 2ntnuf

B/GNO's can be great and are, I believe necessary for the good health of a good relationship. 

B/GNO's at places that put potential partners in close contact with one another would tend to offer more opportunities for problems than other activities.


----------



## Personal

See_Listen_Love said:


> johnnycomelately said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not American, if you included me in your insult, and the logical fault is with _your_ thinking. "People go out on GNOs/BNOs, people get divorced, therefore GNOs/BNOs cause divorce." It is a deductive fallacy.
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot understand why someone would say that. There is no logic, no reason, no intelligence at all in phrasing
> 
> "People go out on GNOs/BNOs, people get divorced, therefore GNOs/BNOs cause divorce."
> 
> as a compilation of what I would have stated.
> 
> Like I repeated, again: I did not say that or something like it.
> 
> It seems your input system is really not capable of understanding some simple logic even, it is utterly incomprehensible why you could not do that.
> :scratchhead:
> 
> I am dead serious.
Click to expand...

Considering what you have written as quoted below, johnnycomelately has paraphrased you adequately.



See_Listen_Love said:


> I state that I believe that: Young couples going out with their boy and girl groups on weekend nights, friday, saturday, who marry, having a baby or not, keep going out in their old week pattern with their respective boy or girls group, are all ending up in divorce.


As I understand it from what you have written as quoted above, you believe that young couples who marry and keep going out with their friends, are all ending up divorced. 

Instead of proffering thinly veiled insults against Americans regarding their intellect. I encourage you to revisit your assertions regarding those that you are convinced will end up divorced. So that you can apply reason, logic and intelligence in order to appreciate the fact that your assertions as written, unambiguously indicate that all married persons who continue to go out frequently with their friends will end up divorced.

The simple fact remains that Boy/Girl Nights out are not of themselves a threat to anyone's long term marital relations. For example, threat in infidelity is predicated on intent and capability.

Unless there is a medical limitation all spouses have the capability to be unfaithful. If a spouse chooses (intent) to be unfaithful they will betray their partner regardless of the social venue and the opportunities it may facilitate. For social opportunity can be readily found in the workplace at the library, park, shopping centre, family function and or party etc.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

How on earth is it possible that you think 




> I state that I believe that: Young couples going out with their boy and girl groups on weekend nights, friday, saturday, who marry, having a baby or not, keep going out in their old week pattern with their respective boy or girls group, are all ending up in divorce.


equals



> As I understand it from what you have written as quoted above, you believe that young couples who marry and keep going out with their friends, are all ending up divorced.


So I give up. 

If people here do not see that certain conditions added or left out, certain qualifiers added or left out simply change the statement.....

Then there is no hope...


----------



## Chaparral

The more people that married people come in contact with in their workplace, the more likely they are to cheat. Different professions have vastly different rates of infidelity. To assume people are no.more likely to cheat when their spouse is not around, to assume that alcohol consumption does not greatly reduce inhibition, and to assume dancing doesn't sexually stimulate people is beyond reasonable.

Personal experience does more than confirm what should be common sense. If necessary there are studies that prove married women in clubs without their husbands dress and dance more provacitively when they ovulate than single women.

If wives and girlfriends in clubs were so invulnerable to other mens attentions, men would never have the need to c#ckblock. Therefore, when there is no husband there to c#ckblock, there is no doubt more cheating will take place.

At least one third of men and women do cheat. It makes no sense to say they would cheat if they didn't have the oppurtunity.

I would say this works the same for both sexes. As a matter of fact, my experience says women can trust their fellow women friends and aquaitances a good deal less than men can trust their buddies.


----------



## The Middleman

We should let this thread die a natural death.


----------



## Chaparral

Personal said:


> Then it is clear we have differing opinions regarding the integrity of women.
> 
> In my experience women can trust their female friends as much as men can trust their male friends.


I don't know if I would consider wht you learn from experience as simply an opinion. In my experience it isn't even close. As a matter of fact I can't remember any guy friends I had that would even date another friends ex. Otoh, I can't believe how many of my girlfriends friends hit on me, even including a sister. Also, I couldn't believe how many women would hit on a guy they knew was in a relationship.


----------



## Entropy3000

CluelessWif said:


> I love how you quote your opinion as if it were fact. It is not in my DNA. I have been attracted to other men. Some of them were attracted to me, and some of those happened during a rough time in the marriage.
> 
> Did I consider it, for even a moment? God, no. I have ethics. I will not, have not ever cheated. I have no desire to be a rat bastard. You are straight up wrong when you say that cheating is in my DNA. Hell, I don't even like to be touched, not even casually, by people outside my family.
> 
> Justify your own feelings any way you want, but don't pretend they are universal. Stop projecting.


It is in fact in our nature. You have just not been in the circumstances that would put the pressure on. Many people do live in a relatively sheltered existence.

You may have excellent boundaries. This is good way to start.

Ethics and character only go so far. These work great if you use your head and ensure boundaries. This is the point here.
But I have seen many people who claim to have ethics and character stray. They rationalize their actions.

Still others just live in denial. Carry on EAs and claim they are just friends or invoke their rights to have this independence.

If projecting is relying on my life experience then so be it. Just my experience in the military would probably freak most people out.
You see people change dramatically when put under extreme situations.

The take away is to have solid boundaries and not just think this cannot happen to you.


----------



## johnnycomelately

See_Listen_Love said:


> I cannot understand why someone would say that. There is no logic, no reason, no intelligence at all in phrasing
> 
> "People go out on GNOs/BNOs, people get divorced, therefore GNOs/BNOs cause divorce."
> 
> as a compilation of what I would have stated.
> 
> Like I repeated, again: I did not say that or something like it.
> 
> It seems your input system is really not capable of understanding some simple logic even, it is utterly incomprehensible why you could not do that.
> :scratchhead:
> 
> I am dead serious.


Well, if several people, who appear to be normal, think that is what you said then perhaps the problem is with how you expressed yourself and not everybody else.


----------



## jaquen

johnnycomelately said:


> Well, if several people, who appear to be normal, think that is what you said then perhaps the problem is with how you expressed yourself and not everybody else.


This.

I find all the clarifications attempts bizarre because the original point, reposted ad nauseum, is quite clear.

People merely are disagreeing with it.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

I have been looking into logical thinking because of this. I am sorry to say that there does not exist logical thinking in practical terms

People do express themselves irrational and not logical, even in the simplest of cases like my statements mentioned.

Not that I think logic is so much more important than other area's, but the reactions where not correct to quite simple statements.

People in general just cannot think I am afraid.


----------



## Personal

See_Listen_Love said:


> I have been looking into logical thinking because of this. I am sorry to say that there does not exist logical thinking in practical terms
> 
> People do express themselves irrational and not logical, even in the simplest of cases like my statements mentioned.
> 
> Not that I think logic is so much more important than other area's, but the reactions where not correct to quite simple statements.
> 
> People in general just cannot think I am afraid.


I have come to the conclusion you are beating a dead horse.


----------



## jaquen

See_Listen_Love said:


> I have been looking into logical thinking because of this. I am sorry to say that there does not exist logical thinking in practical terms
> 
> People do express themselves irrational and not logical, even in the simplest of cases like my statements mentioned.
> 
> Not that I think logic is so much more important than other area's, but the reactions where not correct to quite simple statements.
> 
> People in general just cannot think I am afraid.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

Personal said:


> I have come to the conclusion you are beating a dead horse.


Yes, that is the sad conclusion. 

I think I have to revert to the maxim of 'Give the people what they want'.

Just that I am afraid.


----------



## dcFlorida

Beware of your 'friends'. They would love nothing better than to throw a wrench in... jealousy, etc. 
You married relatively young so the danger is exponential.

My advice.... if you have an urge to go out without your hubby.... have the common courtesy to 'offer him a divorce' as going without him will eventually lead to this anyhow. Doing so early on will prevent a lot of heart break. 

If I were you ... I would wait for the hubby and go someplace your 'friends' are not hanging out.


----------



## vellocet

See_Listen_Love said:


> I have been looking into logical thinking because of this. I am sorry to say that there does not exist logical thinking in practical terms
> 
> People do express themselves irrational and not logical, even in the simplest of cases like my statements mentioned.
> 
> Not that I think logic is so much more important than other area's, but the reactions where not correct to quite simple statements.
> 
> People in general just cannot think I am afraid.


Logic does not exist in a lot of situations, this certainly being one of them. This isn't a math problem with a definite answer.

But if logic did exist with regards to this thread, it would be that "acceptable" is to be defined by the people involved in the relationship.


----------



## See_Listen_Love

vellocet said:


> Logic does not exist in a lot of situations, this certainly being one of them. This isn't a math problem with a definite answer.
> 
> But if logic did exist with regards to this thread, it would be that "acceptable" is to be defined by the people involved in the relationship.


Just last night I got a hint on the how and why from logic thinking:

I was mentioned that the 'gut feeling' is caused by the extensive neural network formed by our guts, that 'literally acts like a second brain'!

Never heard that, so a new area to look at. It is possible then multiple neural systems control our behavior, so our 'rational mind' is more a delusive concept than a reality for many of us.

I still believe logic thinking is possible btw, but it is more like a craft, able to be used by the skilled thinker.


----------



## Chaparral

Having had to take a class in logic to get my degree, its obvious most people do not really understand logic.


----------



## Accipiter777

I dont go with my wife on Girls-Night-Out. Marriage also needs time apart... we may be married, but we still have individual time.


----------



## Chaparral

Accipiter777 said:


> I dont go with my wife on Girls-Night-Out. Marriage also needs time apart... we may be married, but we still have individual time.


Do you mind if your wife gets drunk with the girls? Do you mind if she flirts with othermen when she out? Ok if she slow dances with om while out? How about grinding? How about going outside with other men to get a buzz or fresh air?


----------



## 2ntnuf

Trigger........

There are appropriate G/BNO's. All spouses need individual time away for hobbies, personal interests, etc. When they are safer places than a bar or club, they seem to have less issues and less questions involved. 

Those questions that pop into your head are red flags. Don't ignore them. Figure out why you have them. Is it you or are they really there for a good reason? 

Sometimes I wonder if those who have to go out to a club or bar were just not ready to settle down?


----------



## jaquen

2ntnuf said:


> Sometimes I wonder if those who have to go out to a club or bar were just not ready to settle down?


Putting clubs aside, as they come with an entirely different kind of potential baggage, what does going to a bar have to do with settling down?

Literally all over planet Earth, across most cultural and socioeconomic lines, human beings go to the local bar/pub/watering hole. Going to a bar to drink and socialize is about as ubiquitous as blue jeans. Counted amongst that number are scores of married people. So I'm not sure what a bar really has to do with a wedding ring, and I say this as someone who rarely ever steps foot in a bar.


----------



## IcePrincess28

I'm 28 years old. And i think a girls' night out is absolutely necessary. But depends on age, and how often. Too often- and it will cause a rift in your relationship. 

I go out dancing about once every 2 months with my girls. I'm usually the designated driver - and i ONLY dance with my girls. I think theres nothing wrong with that. We don't touch each other. We are just bouncing around - in one spot- enjoying the music. Any guys that come up- and try to dance. The girls that are not single just move off. It really is very easy to have a good time clubbing and not cross lines. 

My current SO does not go to clubs with me. If he did, I would invite him only if at least one of the other girls were bringing their man. My SO does not like the club scene. And i do not like the "scene" either- just enjoy the dancing atmosphere. 

From your OP- it sounds like your husband might have jealousy and control issues. My EH would go clubbing with me- and go off to the bathroom. Then some guy from behind grabbed me and I turned around and shoved him off. Turns out it was my H testing me. He's done that many times. 

Anyways- sorry for going off on a tangent. I did not want to read thru 27 pages- do you mind touching on/repeating again if you already have- what other places does he not allow you to go to by yourself?

However- my situation is somewhat unique. Because I rarely drink- he does not worry about me acting drunk, having guys hit on me, or worrying about guys buying me drinks. I only go to bars with my SO. Other places I have girls nights at: restaurants, never bars- its really pointless for me to sit around while they all drink, game nights, movie theaters and fun physical activities such as aerial silk acrobatic intro classes. 

And he also trusts me- in addition to having a normal amount of jealousy. Meaning- he is not one to be irrationally jealous (will only be jealous- if there is good reason to be.)

Do you feel like your husband trusts you? 

Lastly- you are young. IMO, its very acceptable to have girls' night. And for him to feel like its okay to tag along with a group of women, and be the only guy- is a red flag for me. I've tried bringing my SO to girls' nights at times- he won't come anywhere near that.


----------



## 2ntnuf

jaquen said:


> Putting clubs aside, as they come with an entirely different kind of potential baggage, what does going to a bar have to do with settling down?
> 
> Literally all over planet Earth, across most cultural and socioeconomic lines, human beings go to the local bar/pub/watering hole. Going to a bar to drink and socialize is about as ubiquitous as blue jeans. Counted amongst that number are scores of married people. So I'm not sure what a bar really has to do with a wedding ring, and I say this as someone who rarely ever steps foot in a bar.


"Settling down", in my mind, has an element of commitment to a faithful marriage. I don't believe in marriage that involves more than two. Alcohol reduces inhibitions to things that normally would not be done. Bars are places where many find a partner for a ONS or more. 

I happen to think there are plenty of things to do that are less potentially harmful to a committed marriage than a bar. Pretty simple, really.


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## jaquen

2ntnuf said:


> "Settling down", in my mind, has an element of commitment to a faithful marriage. I don't believe in marriage that involves more than two. Alcohol reduces inhibitions to things that normally would not be done. Bars are places where many find a partner for a ONS or more.
> 
> I happen to think there are plenty of things to do that are less potentially harmful to a committed marriage than a bar. Pretty simple, really.


I guess it just amazes me that you seem to believe that all the people..._in the world_ who go to places that happen to serve alcohol are having problems with commitment, "settling down" if you will.

Who knew stopping by Cheers was the equivalent of setting yourself up for divorce!


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## sweetnothings4

You should be able to go have a girls night. Fortunately for me my bf like clubbing and dancing. We actually just went to a edm music fesitival(rave) this summer edc in Las Vegas. We go clubbing like every weekend. I go maybe once a month with my girls and he go goes with his guys. We both dance with other people when we're not out together. It's not an issue with us. 
Your guy just needs to relax a little bit. He can't keep you caged up scared your gonna do something. If you wanted to leave and find someone else you'd do that. He should trust you.


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## 2ntnuf

jaquen said:


> I guess it just amazes me that you seem to believe that all the people..._in the world_ who go to places that happen to serve alcohol are having problems with commitment, "settling down" if you will.
> 
> Who knew stopping by Cheers was the equivalent of setting yourself up for divorce!


You're way over the top with that one. Way over the top. 

I never said all the people in the world who stop in bars are having problems with commitment. I don't think it's a good idea for an alcoholic to go to a bar either. I bet an alcoholic who is committed to recovery would understand that. 

I've seen plenty of couples go to bars. Mostly, I've seen singles go to bars. Companies who manufacture dynamite don't allow smoking, matches, lighters or open flame on their property either. 

There are plenty of things a person can do that don't put them in potentially compromising situations. Or, you can "play with fire". There's no law against it.


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## bfree

jaquen said:


> I guess it just amazes me that you seem to believe that all the people..._in the world_ who go to places that happen to serve alcohol are having problems with commitment, "settling down" if you will.
> 
> Who knew stopping by Cheers was the equivalent of setting yourself up for divorce!


Norm!


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## IcePrincess28

From the experiences that I've had. A SO who tells me that a bar is a place for taken women to go, so they can act single- is usually a man with jealousy/control issues. They're usually a person who has been hurt or is the cheater themselves (my EH)- and assume just bc they do it- everyone else must do it in that setting.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Is having a girls/boys night out acceptable in marriage?*



IcePrincess28 said:


> From the experiences that I've had. A SO who tells me that a bar is a place for taken women to go, so they can act single- is usually a man with jealousy/control issues. They're usually a person who has been hurt or is the cheater themselves (my EH)- and assume just bc they do it- everyone else must do it in that setting.


That's a pretty broad brush you're using. If my wife wanted to consistently go to a bar or club on a GNO I would have a problem with it. I dare say that if I wanted to go to a bar or a club periodically she would not put up with it either. We each have our own boundaries and if our spouses aren't okay with it then we don't need to stay married.


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## 2ntnuf

IcePrincess28 said:


> From the experiences that I've had. A SO who tells me that a bar is a place for taken women to go, so they can act single- is usually a man with jealousy/control issues. They're usually a person who has been hurt or is the cheater themselves (my EH)- and assume just bc they do it- everyone else must do it in that setting.


There's no law against going to a bar or club. Anyone can go who is at least 18 years of age in some states and 21 in others.

I think control is great in the bedroom. It makes for longer sessions. Maybe you two could meet for a drink later and discuss it? There's a bar not too far from here...You can start with how bad it is at home, how your spouses don't understand you or don't have a bit of empathy for you. The alcohol will help loosen your tongue and share things you'd never discuss with your spouse, which is where you should start. _Just kidding, but I think this illustrates my point. _

No couple has zero resentment. There is always something that can be worked on in a marriage. Isn't that the one thing that everyone says? Everyone wants to improve their marriage. Some want more sex, some more intimacy, some want their spouse to lose weight, some want them to share more duties or take more responsibility with the children. 

Alcohol and a soft or strong shoulder to cry on will help you. It's easier to talk to a stranger who just wants to listen and has no stake in your marriage.


ETA: Why is it easier? Cause they will agree with you more than your spouse will. That feels so good. It is liberating to know that you have been correct all along. That it's your spouse who is the rotten no good evil s.of a b. And the more you drink, the more convinced you will be. And when you two decide to open up and dance a little, you will find it's so nice...why won't my spouse do this with me? Maybe (s)he knows you better than this guy or gal?

And without saying a word, you find yourselves again next month, after some silly disagreement, you find yourselves "running into each other accidentally" at, how coincidentally, the same place(s). It was just coincidence. Our friends go there. I wanted to have a drink with our friends. Don't you like them? What's wrong with you? You used to like our friends. They were never our friends. They were yours and I loved you and tried to respect them for love of you. Been there. Done that. Add another wrench to the gears of marriage and commitment. 

Then it becomes once a week and then more and then...I don't know how this happened...



ETA2: Now consider this about control. 

Many women say that they want their spouse or potential to make as much(really a bit more) as them, be in a societal status that they would like to be in and be attractive to other women(forgive me for extrapolating on that last one). I think most can agree with that.

Many women want to be, how can a put this, taken care of or nurtured or, not dominated, but just...they want to feel like they are cared for and about. That they are desired and important to their spouse. I think that places women in a place of being subordinate, to some extent. The dynamics of the relationship and the perspective of the person being taken care of can change in the blink of an eye. That nurturing can suddenly and unexpectedly feel like control. All it takes is for the one who is being nurtured to have a change in perspective. Any imbalance in the relationship can lead to this feeling of being controlled. 

You have the right as a man or a woman to do as you wish with your life in any manner that is within the law. Do so, and you may find you are happier apart than together. That's the chance you take. If you want to be single, then don't get married. If you want companionship and extra work the rest of your life, get married. There will be plenty of things you want to change about that person you chose. There will be plenty of folks wanting to offer a shoulder to cry on. You can easily find yourself being controlled in any relationship, with the right(or maybe wrong?) perspective. 

Some are legitimate. I'm not downplaying abuse, just exaggeration and justification.


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## IcePrincess28

bfree said:


> That's a pretty broad brush you're using. If my wife wanted to consistently go to a bar or club on a GNO I would have a problem with it. I dare say that if I wanted to go to a bar or a club periodically she would not put up with it either. We each have our own boundaries and if our spouses aren't okay with it then we don't need to stay married.



My prior posts in this thread are pretty recent. Yesterday. If you read them. You will see I said - that a GNO is ok but depends on the frequency. Too often and it will cause a rift. 

I don't think I have to state "in my experience and IMO" for every post I make. After all- this is a forum on a very subjective matter. and if I'm not mistaken. The negative point in which I made - I used my own ex husband as an example- after stating "in my experiences." Btw. I'm only 28. I have a lot of learning still ahead of me. 

-IP28

Ps. I forgot to mention the main point. I was solely referring to the comment that bordered around- a bar is where married/spoken for women- go to act single.


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## GusPolinski

Jumping in sort of late here, but w/ respect to the question put forth in the title of the thread...

It depends on a few things; namely, the "boy", the "girl", and the marriage.


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## bfree

*Re: Re: Is having a girls/boys night out acceptable in marriage?*



IcePrincess28 said:


> My prior posts in this thread are pretty recent. Yesterday. If you read them. You will see I said - that a GNO is ok but depends on the frequency. Too often and it will cause a rift.
> 
> I don't think I have to state "in my experience and IMO" for every post I make. After all- this is a forum on a very subjective matter. and if I'm not mistaken. The negative point in which I made - I used my own ex husband as an example- after stating "in my experiences." Btw. I'm only 28. I have a lot of learning still ahead of me.
> 
> -IP28
> 
> Ps. I forgot to mention the main point. I was solely referring to the comment that bordered around- a bar is where married/spoken for women- go to act single.


I understand what you're saying but be careful not to generalize too much. The comment you were responding to was heavy in generalization. Your response was as well.


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## IcePrincess28

bfree said:


> I understand what you're saying but be careful not to generalize too much. The comment you were responding to was heavy in generalization. Your response was as well.


BFree- I have had limited experience. I stated such in my last post. And in my prior post- I stated my opinion was formed from my experiences only. Specifically, my Ex Husband. It can not get more specific than that. Please show where in the last two posts I have made blanketed generalized statements? Anything outside the realm of my experience with my SO or EH?

Point being- I do not see you pointing out fallacies of making alleged generalizations in anyone else's perspectives.


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## jaquen

Lawd, some you people must be flat out exhausted from planning for the worst cast scenario in your marriages all the time.

Are you EVER comfortable? At ease? Do you ever fully trust?


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## GusPolinski

jaquen said:


> Lawd, some you people must be flat out exhausted from planning for the worst cast scenario in your marriages all the time.
> 
> Are you EVER comfortable? At ease? *Do you ever fully trust?*


Yes, but only until given a reason (or reason_*s*_) not to... after that, it can be rather difficult.


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## bfree

In preparing for battle I have always found that plans are useless, but planning is indispensable.

Dwight D. Eisenhower


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## Samus

So husbands your OK with your wife going out on a Friday night leaving home at 10 pm all sexified dressed up to a club with her married girlfriends?

Whatever happened to ***ing brunch? Dinner, going to each others houses and karoaking? You can't even talk to each other in the club, the music is so loud, you want to dance, what happened to having a get together at one of your GF's house and getting your party on? Your still socializing? Your still getting out!!

I don't care if my wife goes out, I want her to go out and enjoy herself, but her friends seem to only want to go to Clubs, not dinner, not restaurants, not house parties with just them, club, wtf for? I don't get it. 

My wife doesn't go, as she doesn't like club scene anyways, I don't get excited when she tells me that her GFs want to go clubbing and leave the house at 10pm.


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## vellocet

IcePrincess28 said:


> From the experiences that I've had. A SO who tells me that a bar is a place for taken women to go, so they can act single- is usually a man with jealousy/control issues. They're usually a person who has been hurt or is the cheater themselves



I'm sure you'd like to think this, and also make a veiled backhand at any man that feels this way, but it just aint so.

I've never been a cheater, but yes, have been cheated on and yes, did my share of dating girls/women who like to club. And that experience is not good. Control issues? If I were a controlling kind of guy, the women I dated would not have went to such places. As such, they were free to do as they please because I'm not their boss, and I give them the benefit of the doubt to be on their best behavior.

Having said that, and years later, my experience tells me that if I want commitment out of someone, those that like to go to clubs aren't going to have a high degree of reliability for such a relationship.



> My prior posts in this thread are pretty recent. Yesterday. If you read them. You will see I said - that a GNO is ok but depends on the frequency. Too often and it will cause a rift.


?????

Ok, you just called any man that has a problem with a committed girlfriend or wife going clubbing as controlling or a cheater himself. If going to such places is not a problem, what does it matter of the frequency? Either its ok, or it isn't. Which is it?


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## Almostrecovered

I wouldn't date a girl who likes to go clubbing just because I wouldn't respect her taste in music


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## IcePrincess28

vellocet said:


> I'm sure you'd like to think this, and also make a veiled backhand at any man that feels this way, but it just aint so.
> 
> I've never been a cheater, but yes, have been cheated on and yes, did my share of dating girls/women who like to club. And that experience is not good. Control issues? If I were a controlling kind of guy, the women I dated would not have went to such places. As such, they were free to do as they please because I'm not their boss, and I give them the benefit of the doubt to be on their best behavior.
> 
> Having said that, and years later, my experience tells me that if I want commitment out of someone, those that like to go to clubs aren't going to have a high degree of reliability for such a relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> ?????
> 
> Ok, you just called any man that has a problem with a committed girlfriend or wife going clubbing as controlling or a cheater himself. If going to such places is not a problem, what does it matter of the frequency? Either its ok, or it isn't. Which is it?


Hmm... I guess I have to repeat what I said. again. 

A man does not have control over what a woman does. And a woman does not have control over what a man does. These things are obvious right- but i'm getting somewhere with this. 

A man who insists on telling a woman she can not do such things that I have mentioned- <insert what I feel about guys such as that>

HOWEVER- this woman- such as me- has the power to decide the frequency in which she goes to such places. Going out too much- at my age <28, with two kids- who both go to their dad's one weekend night every week> is a serious eff up of priorities. and IMO can cause a rift in relationship. 

plus who wants to date a party girl who is almost 30? 

I also mentioned that I am not a drinker. And that might be a huge variable in situations. 

Everyone has opinions based on their experiences in life. My experience came from being married and in a PA. And i use the abbreviation PA jokingly. I mean- I was in a Physically Abusive relationship with my then H who- at the time was a physical trainer- over twice my weight- and i'm 5'3" under 100. He was beating on me and controlling everything I did. And guess what? He was cheating the whole time. 

There is no such thing as UNBIASED opinion. Humans simply can not give it. I will think what I think(don't we all- on here?)- and as I go on in life- I will form different opinions(again- don't we all?).


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## ChargingCharlie

Mine doesn't go clubbing, but I do encourage her to go out with friends, as that allows the kids and I to have some fun and give Daddy some rest. She stresses out easily, so it's much easier when it's just Daddy at home with the kids. 

Also, it allows Daddy to build up brownie points for when I have to work late. Not saying that it always works that way (I could have the kids continuously for a week with no issues, and she'll still stress out if she has them for a few hours and be mad that I'm not home to help), but it's an arrow in my quiver should it come up.


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## vellocet

IcePrincess28 said:


> Hmm... I guess I have to repeat what I said. again.
> 
> A man does not have control over what a woman does. And a woman does not have control over what a man does. These things are obvious right- but i'm getting somewhere with this.
> 
> A man who insists on *telling a woman she can not do such things *that I have mentioned- <insert what I feel about guys such as that>



Perhaps its all in the wording, because that's not what you said.

You said: "A SO *who tells me that a bar is a place for taken women to go, so they can act single*- is usually a man with jealousy/control issues."

If a man tells a woman they cannot go to bars, as you said in the first bolded part, then he IS being controlling and jealous.

In the first bolded part, you say they are controlling if they simply state their opinion about what clubs and bars are all about.

I can state that opinion to a SO, but I'd never tell them they can't do what they want.




> HOWEVER- this woman- such as me- has the power to decide the frequency in which she goes to such places. Going out too much- at my age <28, with two kids- who both go to their dad's one weekend night every week> is a serious eff up of priorities. and IMO can cause a rift in relationship.


Again, either there is nothing wrong with it, or there is.



> plus who wants to date a party girl who is almost 30?


Well a guy would have to be controlling, jealous, or a cheater himself to think there is anything wrong with a girl that likes to go to clubs, right? Because that's what you said.



> I also mentioned that I am not a drinker. And that might be a huge variable in situations.


I don't hold much stock in blaming drinking on anyone's behavior.



> There is no such thing as UNBIASED opinion. Humans simply can not give it. I will think what I think- and as I go on in life- I will form different opinions.


As will I. But you need to realize that people will call you out on veiled insults. It pretty reaching to call any man that simply does not like what they feel clubs and partying represent as jealous or controlling.


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## IcePrincess28

Vellocet-

W/ all due respect- if you're going to quote me- quote my entire post



IcePrincess28 said:


> *From the experiences that I've *had. A SO who tells me that a bar is a place for taken women to go, so they can act single- is usually a man with jealousy/control issues. They're usually a person who has been hurt or is the cheater themselves (my EH)- and assume just bc they do it- everyone else must do it in that setting.


So- to repeat- we all form opinions based on our past- there is no such thing as an UNBIASED opinion.

I'm going to be adding to this so - refresh page please-

MY guy- who is with me- will be able to see- that I DO go out- as well as the FREQUENCY in which I go out. 

And in my case and point- its the FREQUENCY that matters. bc whats that famous argument about all this? Cheaters will cheat ANYWHERE. Daytime on a "grocery run" or Nighttime in a club.

I can't say much about holding stock or not in someone's behavior when they drink. I am not a drinker. I know this- the way my friends act when they drink- are exponential versions of their true self. Exaggerated but not false impressions. 

Calling me out on veiled insults? Look at the bold. I took the time to state that this was in my experience. And i'm open enough to know that my opinions are not (to myself) - fact. They are every changing. And to be bullheaded and stay thinking a certain way- especially with every changing variables- will only hurt myself.


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## IcePrincess28

I added to above post. Please refresh -


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## vellocet

IcePrincess28 said:


> Vellocet-
> 
> W/ all due respect- if you're going to quote me- quote my entire post


The fact that you said "From the experiences I've had" changes absolutely nothing about what I said.

So if I said, *for example*, that "From my experiences" that women who go clubbing are slvts, you wouldn't see that as an insult if you like clubbing?

Basically what you have here are some people that don't like their SO's clubbing or partying for obvious reasons, and because they don't like it, you just said they are controlling, jealous, or are cheaters themselves. I don't think a single person here has condoned or would TELL their SO's what they can or can't do. If they did, that would be controlling.


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## 2ntnuf

vellocet said:


> The fact that you said "From the experiences I've had" changes absolutely nothing about what I said.
> 
> So if I said, *for example*, that "From my experiences" that women who go clubbing are slvts, you wouldn't see that as an insult if you like clubbing?
> 
> Basically what you have here are some people that don't like their SO's clubbing or partying for obvious reasons, and because they don't like it, you just said they are controlling, jealous, or are cheaters themselves. *I don't think a single person here has condoned or would TELL their SO's what they can or can't do. If they did, that would be controlling.*


In my case, she wanted to go to the bar(s). I'd had my fill between marriages and told her so. I knew the bar she wanted to frequent and I knew the type of crowd that was there. I was concerned and it turned out, rightly so. 

I didn't tell her she could not go, or that I would do this or that if she went. I didn't try to disable her vehicle or hide her keys. I did tell her it would be bad for our marriage if we went frequently. I told her I would like to be there with her. I didn't care if she talked to friends there. I thought little of that. I even went in the other room and played pool and didn't know what she was doing for some time. I did not stop her. I could not. 

I did not want her going there by herself. She would not heed my request that she wait for me. She said she had a day off when I was not off and she would do as she pleased. It all ended in divorce. Yes, some of it was my fault. I became disgruntled, resentful, somewhat passive aggressive in that I decided not to help her since she made me feel disrespected, jealous and concerned for her safety and our marriage. 

I could not and did not stop her. She went without my knowledge or consent. She never had to ask my consent. I just figured when you love someone, you don't do things that put your marriage and love at risk. I ended up putting it all at risk once she made me feel insignificant. 

She wasn't concerned with my feelings. I wasn't concerned with doing chores at home. Yes, passive aggressive and it led to infidelity and divorce. The LD was due to all the depression, anxiety, disrespect, and some health issues with type II diabetes, meds for high blood pressure, atrial fibrilation, and some low test, right at 300. It was not part of my passive aggressive idiocy. She thought it was intentional.


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## IcePrincess28

Wait- if my experiences account for nothing- in matters of opinion- then what does? 

But if I say from my experience my ex husband and past relationship have been controlling- and you think that applies to you- then so be it. It's a rather bull headed perspective. If that's how you take it. And you feel that I'm calling anyone that does such as controlling and jealous- no matter how many x I have explained my statement- then so be it. 

I have been fairly specific and understand if you misconstrued my words. Let's just ATD-


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## IcePrincess28

And where have I stated that anyone here has told their spouse/so what they can or can't do????

The title of this thread is if a bno or GNO is acceptable in marriage. I was giving my experience and you got fixated on being righteous in pointing out the "error" of my comment.


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## See_Listen_Love

jaquen said:


> Lawd, some you people must be flat out exhausted from planning for the worst cast scenario in your marriages all the time.
> 
> Are you EVER comfortable? At ease? Do you ever fully trust?


People here have had their own experiences, or read about those of others.

Mankind is not giving much reason for hope...

Still we seek the flowers in the desert, and try to grow them by applying what we think is water. Our only hope.

The one poster that remarked somewhere that everybody forms his own opinion based on his or her experiences in life is very much hitting the nail on the head.

People here voting for the GNO do that based on the images they have in their head about that GNO.

People voting against, do that based on totally different images.

People saying it depends, are able to imagine both sorts of images.

If you replace one's images with those of another, one would vote different. I am afraid that is the sad state of our reasoning. Flawed.


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## vellocet

IcePrincess28 said:


> Wait- if my experiences account for nothing- in matters of opinion- then what does?


Your experiences aren't the problem. You saying we men are controlling if we express concerns about going out to a meat market are.

If you experience that men who actually tell their women they cannot go to a club, even if they have valid concerns, THAT IS controlling.

Just like my experiences with women who like to club tell me that no good will come to it. But I'm not going to say those women are slvts or automatically cheaters.

You keep harping on your "experiences" when it isn't your experiences that are the problem. Its your broad brush of men that might express their concern over their partner clubbing.


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## IcePrincess28

Vellocet- for matters of the issue of control- aren't you coming off that way by persistently pointing out the "error" of my giving my experience from the men I've dated?

You refuse to back off. I think you're just in this for the sake of arguing. I never said all men were controlling that had opinions of that. I said the men I've dated were like that. 

We are all unique in our own ways. We even attract certain types of people whose flaws might repulse us- until we learn different. Up until my last relationship. I always attracted the very types of men whose controlling and jealous ways were a turn off. Bc something in me was involuntarily, subconsciously - or what ever - seeking that. 

So FROM MY EXPERIENCES- MEN WHO SAY ARE... Etc etc.. are CONTROLLING AND JEALOUS. 

I have no desire to point out the "errors" in your perspective yet you seem to be fixated on "putting me in my place" - talk about control issues. Sheesh.


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## vellocet

IcePrincess28 said:


> Vellocet- for matters of the issue of control- aren't you coming off that way by persistently pointing out the "error" of my giving my experience from the men I've dated?


I'm sure that's what you'd like to think.

You didn't listen. Again, you keep harping on your experiences when that isn't the problem. Its your broad brushing of men based on your experiences.

Can I say, based on my experiences, that all women who go to clubs are slvts? No, because that would be incorrect and an insult to women.




> You refuse to back off.


Et tu?




> So FROM MY EXPERIENCES- MEN WHO SAY ARE CONTROLLING AND JEALOUS.


Yup, so you are also then saying that if I have a problem with a SO going to a club, that I'm controlling and jealous. No, not so. 

I'd be controlling IF I told a SO she is forbidden. I'd be jealous IF the reason for going to such a place had nothing to do with getting drinks bought for them, enjoying the attention from other men, etc. That's not jealousy. That's not liking being disrespected.

So I could then say from my experience, that a woman that wants to act single and calls a man controlling for simply not liking it is not a trustworthy woman. See how that works?


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## IcePrincess28

vellocet said:


> I'm sure that's what you'd like to think.
> 
> You didn't listen. Again, you keep harping on your experiences when that isn't the problem. Its your broad brushing of men based on your experiences.


Oh- I get it now- so you're not trying to tell me that its wrong for me to say that about others( which i did not) - but rather its wrong for me to think this way- as it pertains in my dating life. 

You spent all this time attempting to teach me what to think huh? 

You're the only one- in all these posts- that have taken the time to do that. All while i've initially stated- that i'm 28 and will change my opinions as life changes- regardless of better or worse. You keep using words like "we" men and etc. I spoke about my husband and ex. They were controlling. Take the blinders off. I was not speaking for other men. I was speaking about the two men i dated. And how i avoided it by dating my SO. 

Et tu? I defended myself. You're the one in the offense. I don't go about pointing errors in your statement. 

But you're still at it- this conversation has gone off topic and is going no where. Its one thing to disagree with someone. Its another thing entirely to spend several days telling them that- how they think is wrong. So i'll leave you to your righteous ways.



vellocet said:


> So I could then say from my experience, that a woman that wants to act single and calls a man controlling for simply not liking it is not a trustworthy woman. See how that works?



p.s. Do you see how i don't have an issue with your personal statements (or its example of)? Altho I may disagree- who am i to attempt to tell you how to think.


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## IcePrincess28




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## vellocet

IcePrincess28 said:


> Oh- I get it now- so you're not trying to tell me that its wrong for me to say that about others( which i did not) - but rather its wrong for me to think this way- as it pertains in my dating life.


Nope. So never mind. You don't get it.


----------

