# Question about the '180'



## amorous_1 (Nov 29, 2010)

It seems the 180 is often suggested to people who are experiencing issues in the relationship. That can be cheating (most commonly) or for other issues like a sexless marriage where one partner no longer has much if any desire for the other in that way.

Here are some of the suggestions from the 180:


> *2.* No frequent phone calls.
> *9.* Don’t schedule dates together.
> *10.* Don’t keep saying, “I Love You!”
> *14.* When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don’t push any issue, no matter how much you want to!
> ...


#2,9,10, and 14 seem at the surface to be at odds with #17,18 to me. Maybe I'm somehow misinterpreting this. Don't be cold but pull yourself back? How do you pull that off without coming off as cold?

What I've sometimes had problems dealing with is when I'm told no to intimacy when I initiate that is not something that really makes me want to cuddle up and show a lot of positive affection. The natural reaction is to withdraw. This is not necessarily to become angry or have an outburst and start a fight but pull back on affection and maybe be a little quieter than would otherwise be normal. Not as cheerful as usual. Not wanting to cuddle, hold hands, etc. so much. This is noticed by the other partner, is determined to be sulking, and then you get a bunch of questions you didn't ask for about why you're acting like this. How to respond to those questions at that point is another thing I've struggled with once that scenario unfolds.

So, what am I doing wrong here or how am I misinterpreting this? Thanks in advance.


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

First and most important the 180 is about getting yourself to a point of working on you. Not your relationship. It's about making it to where if you choose to continue your relationship its from a better position. A position of power, not over your partner but over yourself.

17 is more about being busy, not always there as much for them but for yourself. If you are just moping around then you ARE sulking. Find something you like doing and do it.
18 don't let them see if you are hurting. Show them you are fine with the new dynamic you are making for yourself.


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## amorous_1 (Nov 29, 2010)

uphillbattle said:


> First and most important the 180 is about getting yourself to a point of working on you. Not your relationship.


Understood. Interesting then how much of it is pointing out how to behave towards that other person in the relationship rather than simply focusing on yourself.

If an attempt at initiating sex is rejected then are you basically supposed to still be just as affectionate, cheerful, cuddly, kissy, etc. as you would be otherwise? A simple yes or no to that question would be appreciated.

If the answer to that is no, then how do you frame a response if she starts asking why the change in behavior?


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

amorous_1 said:


> Understood. Interesting then how much of it is pointing out how to behave towards that other person in the relationship rather than simply focusing on yourself.
> 
> If an attempt at initiating sex is rejected then are you basically supposed to still be just as affectionate, cheerful, cuddly, kissy, etc. as you would be otherwise? A simple yes or no to that question would be appreciated.
> 
> If the answer to that is no, then how do you frame a response if she starts asking why the change in behavior?


Her initiating sex or you?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

amorous_1 said:


> Understood. Interesting then how much of it is pointing out how to behave towards that other person in the relationship rather than simply focusing on yourself.
> 
> If an attempt at initiating sex is rejected then are you basically supposed to still be just as affectionate, cheerful, cuddly, kissy, etc. as you would be otherwise? A simple yes or no to that question would be appreciated.
> 
> If the answer to that is no, then how do you frame a response if she starts asking why the change in behavior?


You are confusing the basic concept of the "180" with the very specific "180 for the betrayed spouse". The concept of the "180" is that you do the opposite of what you would normally do.

The 180 for a betrayed spouse are steps for a betrayed spouse to use to stop being overly emotional, begging their spouse to end the affair, etc. That has nothing at all to do with the situation you are in where you are looking to improve your sex life.

In her book "Divorce Busters", _Michelle_ Weiner-_Davis_ explains what she means by "doing the 180". Here's a video of her explaining it.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

If you are doing the 180, you aren't trying to initiate sex. You are treating your spouse like a roommate and developing a better life independent of your relationship. You are focused on improving yourself into a better person. After a while, that may become attractive again to a spouse who had lost interest in you, or helps you detach from a spouse who is actively hurting you.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

amorous_1 said:


> ...........Maybe I'm somehow misinterpreting this. Don't be cold but pull yourself back? *How do you pull that off without coming off as cold?*
> 
> What I've sometimes had problems dealing with is *when I'm told no to intimacy* when I initiate that is not something that *really makes me want to cuddle up and show a lot of positive affection.* *The natural reaction is to withdraw.* This is not necessarily to become angry or have an outburst and start a fight but pull back on affection and maybe be a little quieter than would otherwise be normal. *Not as cheerful as usual. Not wanting to cuddle, hold hands, etc. so much*. This is noticed by the other partner, *is determined to be sulking*, and then you get a bunch of questions you didn't ask for about why you're acting like this. How to respond to those questions at that point is another thing I've struggled with once that scenario unfolds.
> 
> *So, what am I doing wrong* here or how am I misinterpreting this? Thanks in advance.


A few things. Have you ever watched the Monty Python show? "And now time for something completely different."

To me, the idea behind a 180 is exactly the Monty Python thing. You are in a rut and what you are doing is not working. That means it is time for a 180 or doing something completely different to change the interpersonal dynamic. It may work, it may not work. If the thing works, great do more of it. If it doesn't work try something different. In life this is an iterative process by which you will find actions that produce desired results. Life is full of trial and error actions that allow you to learn and grow. The problem is you may get some of your actions wrong and more complicating, your spouse is growing and changing over time, so what worked when you were dating, won't work when you are married with children, etc.

I would also like to comment on the *what are you doing wrong and the natural reaction is to withdraw*. The reaction to withdraw is not the Mature reaction, it is the juvenile reaction. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but if a woman rejects a handsome confident man does he "sulk" or does he smile and think, she would have had a great time, too bad for her. Remember this is the woman you married, brought children into the world and committed yourself to. You are going to withdraw from her emotionally and you think that is the mature and natural thing? I think not. 

Instead of withdrawing, why don't you do a 180 and ask her what's wrong? Ask her if she would like a rain check for later or perhaps in a day or so? Talk to her, offer her some options that you can live with. Find out if there is a problem. Maybe your 180 should not be to withdraw, but to be more empathetic or focused on her rather than you?

To me the purpose of a 180 is to change the interpersonal dynamic by doing something under your control. Ultimately if you are in a rut, your spouse will know that your usual reaction is different and cause her to wonder what has changed or accept the new reaction. If she doesn't like the new reaction she gets to change how she reacts to your new 180 approach. It is again a process of "reestablishing" your mode of interaction.

One of the hardest lessons in my recovery from a sex starved marriage was that I can control myself and my reactions. If my wife rejects me, I am not so co-dependent that I have to feel crushed and hurt. If she tries to start a fight with me, I don't have to get angry, I can look at her and ask why she said such a thing to me? You can control your emotions if you want to. 

Good luck. Talk to her, listen to her, but most of all be the adult in the room and learn how to control yourself and your actions.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Personally, I think the 180 works if the issue is not too big and the marriage can be recovered. Otherwise, the partner subjected to the 180 will detach even more.


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

@amorous_1, check Athol Kay's book The Married Man Sex Life Primer , it's an eye opening to read, you should really check it out!


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Kaliber said:


> @amorous_1, check Athol Kay's book The Married Man Sex Life Primer , it's an eye opening to read, you should really check it out!


The cover tells you everything...


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

amorous_1 said:


> So, what am I doing wrong here or how am I misinterpreting this? Thanks in advance.


Don’t read that list like a manual. The point of the 180 is to:

1. Improve yourself. Spend time making yourself physically better, improve your wardrobe, improve your career, etc…. If you do these things you will become more attractive to the opposite sex.

2. Start to detach from a partner you’re not happy with at the moment.

3. Create discomfort in your partner when they notice 1-2 and wonder if they’re on the way out.

So there are two possibilities with this and they’re both ok. The first is becoming better makes her come back to you. The second is she doesn’t come back but you’ve improved your market value for when you leave and you’ve also detached making it easier to leave.

So when you undertake this and commit to it you’re committing to one of those outcomes if you’re doing it right.



amorous_1 said:


> If an attempt at initiating sex is rejected then are you basically supposed to still be just as affectionate, cheerful, cuddly, kissy, etc. as you would be otherwise? A simple yes or no to that question would be appreciated.


If one of the things you normally do is initiate and get rejected then you’re not doing a 180 if you continue to do the same thing.

180 would be to stop initiating completely.

Initiating, getting rejected, and then pouting about it is NEEDY. That is exactly the opposite of what you want.

You might need coaching. Try @dadstartingover look him up and check out the resources he offers.


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## amorous_1 (Nov 29, 2010)

uphillbattle said:


> Her initiating sex or you?


Me initiating.


EleGirl said:


> In her book "Divorce Busters", _Michelle_ Weiner-_Davis_ explains what she means by "doing the 180". Here's a video of her explaining it.


I'll check it out, thanks. I have seen her short TED talk video and thought it was good.


Hopeful Cynic said:


> If you are doing the 180, you aren't trying to initiate sex. You are treating your spouse like a roommate and developing a better life independent of your relationship. You are focused on improving yourself into a better person. After a while, that may become attractive again to a spouse who had lost interest in you, or helps you detach from a spouse who is actively hurting you.


If I don't try to initiate sex then it's probably going to happen less than it is now, possibly significantly so, and seems like a step backwards if this is what I'm trying to work on. I have no other outlet either at this point which means further aggravating the sexual frustration on my end.

If I start treating her like a roommate then that will mean no flirting, no kissing, no hugging, etc.. Basically completely shutting down those aspects of the relationship. You don't do those things for a roommate. Assuming I were to do that then there would be a lot of questions from her about why I am doing this and why the change in behavior. I have no idea how I'm supposed to respond to those demands for that information.


Young at Heart said:


> Remember this is the woman you married, brought children into the world and committed yourself to. You are going to withdraw from her emotionally and you think that is the mature and natural thing? I think not.


I believe I understand your point. As disappointing or frustrating as it may be to get a no when initiating those feelings must be hidden and I need to continue acting as if nothing happened at all. I need to continue displaying affection for her normally. I suspect you know that isn't always natural or easy especially in the moment but if it's the way forward what else can be done about it. Also, no offense taken on the mature vs. juvenile reaction thing either.


> Talk to her, offer her some options that you can live with. Find out if there is a problem.


Without diverting the thread too much or going off the rails, we've had the talk, and she knows this is a problem in the relationship and one I'm not willing to live with forever. It's a work in progress.


> To me the purpose of a 180 is to change the interpersonal dynamic by doing something under your control. Ultimately if you are in a rut, your spouse will know that your usual reaction is different and cause her to wonder what has changed or accept the new reaction.


She's going to do more than wonder about it, she's going to ask why. So what do you say then?


ccpowerslave said:


> Don’t read that list like a manual. The point of the 180 is to:
> 1. Improve yourself. Spend time making yourself physically better, improve your wardrobe, improve your career, etc…. If you do these things you will become more attractive to the opposite sex.
> 2. Start to detach from a partner you’re not happy with at the moment.
> 3. Create discomfort in your partner when they notice 1-2 and wonder if they’re on the way out.


I understand #1. What do you tell the person then, when they want to know why #2 and #3 is happening and they demand answers? Sorry if I sound like a broken record here. I just don't seem to see this discussed much unless I've missed it somewhere. We're not talking about a cheating situation in this case either fyi, if that changes things.

Maybe I'm just not 'getting it' here. To me, if you start detaching and creating discomfort, what exactly does that look like? If I shut down emotionally to some noticeable degree with her, then that is a form of detachment. That doesn't seem to be what we're being asked to do here in the 180 though based on what I'm reading here so far. It could be interpreted as pouting or sulky behavior.


> 180 would be to stop initiating completely.


Would probably result in going from a relationship where it's not happening enough to fulfill my needs but is happening occasionally to one where it almost never happens at all.


> You might need coaching. Try @dadstartingover look him up and check out the resources he offers.


Copy that, and thank you.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

@amorous_1 ,

Have you ever seen that Seinfeld episode where George Castanza does EVERYTHING the opposite of how he would normally? And he is exceedingly successful by doing everything the opposite?

Yes it is a TV show and not reality but that is the concept of the 180. “Do a U-turn”. The way you’ve been doing it is not working so do the opposite.

If your goal is more sex, the way you’ve been doing it isn’t working. Initiating, being turned down, and pouting isn’t working. Soooo…do the opposite. If you initiate, and she turns you down, say “Okay cool, I’m happy! I just got an hour or two of Me Time” and skip out of the room whistling a tune. And when she says, “Hey what gives? You’re supposed to pout and you’re acting like you don’t care” just say “Yep I decided if you won’t show me love, then I will show it to myself! And after enough times I may decide I can love my own self enough without you. So have a nice night. Bye 😊”

ETA: The whole idea is not to manipulate her into doing what you want, but rather to change YOU. She can choose to love you or not—her call. But YOU stop focusing on getting her to X and instead focus on your own happiness.


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## amorous_1 (Nov 29, 2010)

If I did something over the top like that then I guarantee a line of questioning at that point lol and she would also possibly be upset at me for making a statement like "love my own self enough without you" for example. 

If I blow it off and then don't show ANY reaction whatsoever, that is the only way I could get past that situation without being subjected to examination so to speak. I guarantee an interrogation otherwise. People are quite perceptive and inquisitive generally.

I suppose what I'm most interested in are opinions regarding these types of questions:


> If I start treating her like a roommate then that will mean no flirting, no kissing, no hugging, etc.. Basically completely shutting down those aspects of the relationship. You don't do those things for a roommate. Assuming I were to do that then there would be a lot of questions from her about why I am doing this and why the change in behavior. I have no idea how I'm supposed to respond to those demands for that information.





> Maybe I'm just not 'getting it' here. To me, if you start detaching and creating discomfort, what exactly does that look like? If I shut down emotionally to some noticeable degree with her, then that is a form of detachment. That doesn't seem to be what we're being asked to do here in the 180 though based on what I'm reading here so far. It could be interpreted as pouting or sulky behavior.


TIA


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## uphillbattle (Aug 17, 2011)

amorous_1 said:


> Me initiating.
> 
> If I don't try to initiate sex then it's probably going to happen less than it is now, possibly significantly so, and seems like a step backwards if this is what I'm trying to work on. I have no other outlet either at this point which means further aggravating the sexual frustration on my end.
> 
> Would probably result in going from a relationship where it's not happening enough to fulfill my needs but is happening occasionally to one where it almost never happens at all.


If you just take the 180 like a buffet table and pick and choose what you would like to do off of it you will get the inconsistencies you keep asking about. You should not be initiating, yes we all know it will go to nothing it is part of what will happen. Your current concern should not be her, it should be you. This is not a short process, there is no magic wand. To continue to initiate is just doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. 


amorous_1 said:


> Assuming I were to do that then there would be a lot of questions from her about why I am doing this and why the change in behavior. I have no idea how I'm supposed to respond to those demands for that information.
> 
> Without diverting the thread too much or going off the rails, we've had the talk, and she knows this is a problem in the relationship and one I'm not willing to live with forever. It's a work in progress.
> 
> ...


Are you scared of what she will say if you are honest with her? If she asks be honest. I am working on my own emotional health. I am getting myself to a place where I am no longer hurt by your rejection and can move on if I am never going to get my needs met with you.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

amorous_1 said:


> If I did something over the top like that then I guarantee a line of questioning at that point lol and she would also possibly be upset at me for making a statement like "love my own self enough without you" for example.
> 
> If I blow it off and then don't show ANY reaction whatsoever, that is the only way I could get past that situation without being subjected to examination so to speak. I guarantee an interrogation otherwise. People are quite perceptive and inquisitive generally.
> 
> ...


Examination and scrutiny from her reaction to you is an OPPORTUNITY.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

amorous_1 said:


> Would probably result in going from a relationship where it's not happening enough to fulfill my needs but is happening occasionally to one where it almost never happens at all.


It depends what your goal is. 

Let’s say you’re having sex N times a month (N > 0) and you’re happy with N+2. Well then maybe some kind of half measure while you’re still initiating is ok. But let’s say instead you want like N+15 or N+20 which is in the range of what I wanted. This is a very large difference in my want versus what I have. Well in that case what are you giving up by going to 0?

Yes, it WILL increase your frustration. How better than to steel your resolve to follow through with things?

If she asks about why are you going to the gym, why are you working out, etc… the answer is I want to feel and look better, I think I’ve been in a bit of a bad rut and I want to climb out of it.

If she asks why you’re not initiating this could be a good jumping off point for having the talk if you’re prepared to follow through on leaving. How often are you initiating now? Most people stop at some point (me included) because getting rejected repeatedly by your own wife is upsetting.


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## Al_Bundy (Mar 14, 2021)

In Absentia said:


> Personally, I think the 180 works if the issue is not too big and the marriage can be recovered. Otherwise, the partner subjected to the 180 will detach even more.


Totally agree and it still works in the sense that if the other person detaches even more, well you have your final answer.

Something else that is talked about similar to the 180 is dread game. Sounds bad but it's basically improving yourself and showing you can be attractive to other women. No that doesn't mean going out hitting on strange women. Its about improving yourself to the point if she does leave, you're ready to hit the ground running. So the obvious place to start is fitness, take that up a notch or several if you are out of shape. Money, it's easy to get comfortable so get a new skill that will improve your value or start a side hustle. Appearance, look at most guys and vow to not look like that. I'm not saying become a fashion expert but slowly start building your knowledge so that you look more put together even when you're just going to home depot. You'll be surprised how both men and women react differently when you don't look like the typical guy in cargo shorts with the beer belly.

Best of luck.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Al_Bundy said:


> Totally agree and it still works in the sense that if the other person detaches even more, well you have your final answer.


Sure. But if you feel the need to do the 180, it's too late in the relationship (IMO). Success stories are few and far between. _Waiting now for the successful guys to contradict me...  _


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## amorous_1 (Nov 29, 2010)

I'm not Henry Cavill but I'm in the top 25% of 45 year old men physically. That sounds good but at this point people have gotten so lazy it's not even that hard to achieve. Financially I'm not JP Morgan but I've made enough sound decisions that I can't be accused of being an idiot.

In the past, when she's rejected advances from me I have reacted by becoming less talkative, less affectionate, and just not paying her the same attention generally in that moment. It gets noticed and is interpreted as sulking behavior and she gets upset about it because she doesn't like that response. I've stated I don't feel like it's wrong or surprising that I should be disappointed but showing it is a problem evidently. I'm guilty of mishandling this.

Generally we have it 2-3 times per week. If that is N then what I'm after would be something along the lines of N+2. Basically, a 40-50% increase in frequency. If that helps add to this.

I'm aware that 2-3 times is not necessarily "that bad" statistically and part of me does sometimes wonder if I've got a right to complain vs. the scenarios other couples find themselves in.

I'm initiating about 4-5x per week.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> Sure. But if you feel the need to do the 180, it's too late in the relationship (IMO). Success stories are few and far between. _Waiting now for the successful guys to contradict me... _


The thing with the 180 is it benefits you whether it works or not. You become a better version of yourself. You can still end up miserable though if there is no response and you refuse to leave. If you go into it with the idea that you’re done if it doesn’t work then it’s all good.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> The thing with the 180 is it benefits you whether it works or not. You become a better version of yourself. You can still end up miserable though if there is no response and you refuse to leave. If you go into it with the idea that you’re done if it doesn’t work then it’s all good.


It's not all good. Most people don't go into it with the idea that they are done. They are doing it to get their wife back. The idea of becoming a "better version" of myself to attract my wife again is repulsive to me. It's a game. We grew up together, we are what we are after all these years, I don't need to play games. I like the Beatles, I don't become a Black Sabbath fan all of a sudden. I don't need a "better version" of myself, trying to be what I am not. If I have to do all this, it's too late. It's a pick me dance in disguise. I find it humiliating. My wife would spot it miles away and it would be a huge turn off. But then it's my opinion. And it doesn't matter in my situation. I did the 180 and destroyed our marriage further.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> It's not all good. Most people don't go into it with the idea that they are done. They are doing it to get their wife back. The idea of becoming a "better version" of myself to attract my wife again is repulsive to me. It's a game. We grew up together, we are what we are after all these years, I don't need to play games. I like the Beatles, I don't become a Black Sabbath fan all of a sudden. I don't need a "better version" of myself, trying to be what I am not. If I have to do all this, it's too late. It's a pick me dance in disguise. I find it humiliating. My wife would spot it miles away and it would be a huge turn off. But then it's my opinion. And it doesn't matter in my situation. I did the 180 and destroyed our marriage further.


Then they are not following the spirit of the 180.

That said, not everybody approaches the 180 the same way you may or may not have, either.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

farsidejunky said:


> Then they are not following the spirit of the 180.


I wouldn't know...


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

amorous_1 said:


> In the past, when she's rejected advances from me I have reacted by becoming less talkative, less affectionate, and just not paying her the same attention generally in that moment. It gets noticed and is interpreted as sulking behavior and she gets upset about it because she doesn't like that response. I've stated I don't feel like it's wrong or surprising that I should be disappointed but showing it is a problem evidently. I'm guilty of mishandling this.


The DSO material is a must read for this. He has a good explanation of why being needy is not attractive.

If you want to continue to initiate and she rejects you then you need to brush it off as no big deal. This is not a 180 though.

I have almost stopped initiating completely. My wife knows my requirements for sex now and she knows if she is meeting them or not. So she signals to me or initiates and on other days I don’t bother. 

She has been working a ton of hours lately so hasn’t come to bed for a couple nights in a row. That is when the danger lights go off in her head, so yesterday she hit it and had it in her mind probably all day. For my part what I did is nothing. I did my normal stuff, went to the gym, did the things I wanted.

As for other physical touch, don’t initiate that either. Participate enthusiastically but don’t start it.

Once the sex tap is turned on and flowing then you can reintroduce this.

You want to have her thinking about what is changing and why you’re changing.

Of course if you’re already at a point where you feel if it doesn’t improve you’re going to leave then feel free to have the one time talk with her where you break down for her how you feel being rejected constantly and that it can’t continue that way. Have a date in mind for when you want it to be repaired by and then see what happens.

Now that seems easy written out but it’s not. I had probably mental issues when I had that talk and it took a couple months before my brain was even working right again.

FWIW similar boat as you. I am in better shape than most men and in the top <1% in income in the US and generally have my **** together except for that. Well now I have that together as well.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

In Absentia said:


> It's not all good. Most people don't go into it with the idea that they are done. They are doing it to get their wife back. The idea of becoming a "better version" of myself to attract my wife again is repulsive to me. It's a game.


Yes, but any resource you read on dead bedrooms suggests the most probable outcome is divorce or misery. So if you’re trying to do anything those are the likely outcomes.

As for it being a game, it’s no game. If it’s a deal breaker for you then it is, and if it’s not, it’s not.

It’s not just to attract your wife, it’s to get you into position where if and when you leave you’re in a better position when finding a replacement.


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## amorous_1 (Nov 29, 2010)

I'm not going to tolerate being friend zoned by my wife, who I still have the hots for. What kind of man stands for that type of situation. Living with a hot roommate, who you used to have sex with, and who has demoted you to friend zone status while at the same time claiming to still 'love you' anyway. I'm trying to work on this situation but I refuse to be stuck in it, as-is, forever. That said, I don't think it is quite as dire yet as the past few sentences paint. We still do it, it is still more often than not good, and she does initiate too just not very often.

I enjoy the gym and exercise and now that I've gotten back into it to some degree it's been a fun thing. I don't even feel like it's 'work' at this point. I love lifting weights and getting a good pump on from it and the challenge and reward (pride) for meeting that challenge. At this point, I hate missing days.

Regarding the 180 yes, I don't think I'm really adopting the entire strategy. That may not be the right thing to do yet. Anyway, I was wondering about some of the suggestions it makes, and what those types of suggestions actually look like when put into play. RE, the whole "detach" but don't come off as "cold" type of thing.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

One more thing as @In Absentia notes, I think if you have real underlying problems then the 180 etc… is probably silly.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

OP for you then it sounds like the 180 is maybe too drastic.

You might want to think about it in a different way which is if you were having sex more in the past what was different about you then versus now? Did you do more of something, less of something? How did you interact with your wife then. Try doing or not doing some of those things and let it marinade for a few weeks. I am working on that type of stuff all the time.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

amorous_1 said:


> I'm not going to tolerate being friend zoned by my wife, who I still have the hots for. What kind of man stands for that type of situation. Living with a hot roommate, who you used to have sex with, and who has demoted you to friend zone status while at the same time claiming to still 'love you' anyway. I'm trying to work on this situation but I refuse to be stuck in it, as-is, forever. That said, I don't think it is quite as dire yet as the past few sentences paint. We still do it, it is still more often than not good, and she does initiate too just not very often.
> 
> I enjoy the gym and exercise and now that I've gotten back into it to some degree it's been a fun thing. I don't even feel like it's 'work' at this point. I love lifting weights and getting a good pump on from it and the challenge and reward (pride) for meeting that challenge. At this point, I hate missing days.
> 
> Regarding the 180 yes, I don't think I'm really adopting the entire strategy. That may not be the right thing to do yet. Anyway, I was wondering about some of the suggestions it makes, and what those types of suggestions actually look like when put into play. RE, the whole "detach" but don't come off as "cold" type of thing.


Did you read the post by @Affaircare and my post? The 180 you brought up in this thread has nothing to offer for your situation. As you can see with the results you are getting, it's back firing on you.

I agree with you, you should not accept a sexless marriage and rejection from you wife. But you are not being smart about this.

There is an old saying that, while a bit corny, makes a good point. "Women need a reason to have sex; men just need a place." Your wife is most likely reacting to sex the way she is because there is a breakdown in your relationship. Most women need a lot of non-sexual bonding for their desire to sex to build. What do you two do together? How much time do the two of you spend together doing date-like things?

In your case, the 180 might mean that you change the way you interact with your wife... change it by 180 degrees. What does she like to do? What do the two of you like to do together? Spend more time doing those things. It will make her feel closer to you and increase her desire for sex. Remember men are from Mars and women are from Venus. Men and women are just different and react to things differently.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

ccpowerslave said:


> Yes, but any resource you read on dead bedrooms suggests the most probable outcome is divorce or misery. So if you’re trying to do anything those are the likely outcomes.
> 
> As for it being a game, it’s no game. If it’s a deal breaker for you then it is, and if it’s not, it’s not.
> 
> It’s not just to attract your wife, it’s to get you into position where if and when you leave you’re in a better position when finding a replacement.


But, as @farsidejunky says, most people do it to get their wife back. I don't think they get the point.


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## amorous_1 (Nov 29, 2010)

I mean if we've already had sex 5+ times this week I may still initiate, because horny, but I'm not going to get bent if she's not feeling it after that much action. I need to set realistic expectations. I get that.

I've been making an effort to do more things together as a couple, re-connect, etc.. and those efforts require consistency and time to see results. I'm not to the point yet with it that I feel I can draw conclusions there. It's an on-going thing.

As far as the 180 goes, I get the point of doing things to make yourself more attractive to everyone including your wife with the idea being you're not doing it to win her back. Lucky for me, things like lifting weights are fun and I don't need a lot of convincing.

When a woman decides she's really done with you it's over. If it hits a point that low, you might as well file. There is no coming back from it.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

amorous_1 said:


> I'm not Henry Cavill but I'm in the top 25% of 45 year old men physically. That sounds good but at this point people have gotten so lazy it's not even that hard to achieve. Financially I'm not JP Morgan but I've made enough sound decisions that I can't be accused of being an idiot.
> 
> In the past, when she's rejected advances from me I have reacted by becoming less talkative, less affectionate, and just not paying her the same attention generally in that moment. It gets noticed and is interpreted as sulking behavior and she gets upset about it because she doesn't like that response. I've stated I don't feel like it's wrong or surprising that I should be disappointed but showing it is a problem evidently. I'm guilty of mishandling this.
> 
> ...


I was/am in your situation. I say I am in your situation, because like many things, your sexual relationship requires regular attention and is never a done deal. Always keep working on improving. We are both far from a sexless marriage, but wanting more. I learned a lot from reading the The Married Man Sex Life Primer. Definitely worth a read. However, before that, I started talking to my wife about how important sex was for me in our relationship. I wasn't just some horn dog looking for a lay, I wanted to make love and feel that special connection with her. I talked to her about how rejection feels for me and it made her more sensitive to my feelings. The biggest thing though, was changes in me. I stopped that same sulking you have been doing when rejected. Nothing is less sexy than a man pouting about not getting sex. I also got better at initiating. BTW, I initiate almost all the time. We went from an average of 2-3 time a week to 4 or 5. It has even gone above that lately. Here are a couple great article to read that can help your situation. 









Being more skilled at initiation - Uncovering Intimacy


Do you use skillful initiation in your marriage? Don't know? You might want to check out this post to see if you can improve how you initiate sex.




www.uncoveringintimacy.com












Being more skilled at rejection - Uncovering Intimacy


Want to know how to reject your spouse in a way that doesn't hurt their feelings but ensures they don't ask for sex again? Become more skilled at rejection.




www.uncoveringintimacy.com


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

If the questions start then answer them truthfully. Explain that you need intimacy and that it is hard for you to do the other things when your not getting any. With all the rejection you have received that you decided to take steps that would help you to keep from wanting it and getting rejected again. That if she wants a sexless relationship that you are ok with it. That you will find other things to do to occupy yourself. 

Then ask if she is ok with you finding a friend with benefits. That you understand some people lose the want or need for sex. It’s just that you haven’t yet. That the relationship is great in all other aspects and you just need someone to relieve the sexual tension you have built up since she never wants if anymore. 

That should definitely get the ball rolling.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

ABHale said:


> If the questions start then answer them truthfully. Explain that you need intimacy and that it is hard for you to do the other things when your not getting any. With all the rejection you have received that you decided to take steps that would help you to keep from wanting it and getting rejected again. That if she wants a sexless relationship that you are ok with it. That you will find other things to do to occupy yourself.
> 
> Then ask if she is ok with you finding a friend with benefits. That you understand some people lose the want or need for sex. It’s just that you haven’t yet. That the relationship is great in all other aspects and you just need someone to relieve the sexual tension you have built up since she never wants if anymore.
> 
> That should definitely get the ball rolling.


In sexless marriage I think your advice is good. However, he and his wife are having sex 2-3 times per week. It is fine that he wants more, but I think it requires a subtler approach than a full blown sexless marriage. I mean it seems crazy to ask if FWB is okay when he is getting it 2-3 times per week from his wife, I'm sure she would say GTFOH!


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## Kaliber (Apr 10, 2020)

@amorous_1 I think the 180 in your situation is to drastic!
You need a different approach, like more attention throughout the day, more making out, more touching, more dating, most importantly being more *dominate and masculine*, so in general making her feel more wanted!

@BigDaddyNY posted some good resources:


BigDaddyNY said:


> I learned a lot from reading the *The Married Man Sex Life Primer*. Definitely worth a read.
> ...
> 
> 
> ...


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

I guess I never saw the 180 as a means to increase an already active sex life (2-3x per week) (all the stats I have seen state an average of 1-2x per week) as much as it would be to improve on a lacking sex life (1-2x per month).


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> In sexless marriage I think your advice is good. However, he and his wife are having sex 2-3 times per week. It is fine that he wants more, but I think it requires a subtler approach than a full blown sexless marriage. I mean it seems crazy to ask if FWB is okay when he is getting it 2-3 times per week from his wife, I'm sure she would say GTFOH!


I think if anyone was having sex 2-3x per week and they suggested a FWB, they could get shot not just shown the door!


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

The OP does have a legit gripe though. For me if I am running < 5x a week I feel bad. 2-3x wouldn’t cut it for me anymore either.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> The OP does have a legit gripe though. For me if I am running < 5x a week I feel bad. 2-3x wouldn’t cut it for me anymore either.


OK Hugh Hefner


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> OK Hugh Hefner


I mean if I was going 7+ that would be even better but there is some compromise needed. 5+ is a level where I feel ok with things.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

ccpowerslave said:


> I mean if I was going 7+ that would be even better but there is some compromise needed. 5+ is a level where I feel ok with things.


You know of course I am just messing with you.

But I will say your wife must be smoking hot and really into sex as I don't think I have known any woman in my life who could interest me into sex that much. I mean sex everyday would seem to get boring at least from my own experience.

As I mentioned in another post, I had some great sex with different women while single between marriages but it wasn't at the 5x or more per week rate.

Good for you man as that has to be a great marriage.


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> As I mentioned in another post, I had some great sex with different women while single between marriages but it wasn't at the 5x or more per week rate.


Lol in my youth I would go 5x a day in some cases so I am quite dialed back from how I used to be. When we first got married 2x a day on most days. She’s still good for that sometimes (maybe 2-3 days a month) but she needs/wants rest days in general. I do not need rest days and am pretty much DTF 24/7.


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## Mybabysgotit (Jul 1, 2019)

amorous_1 said:


> Understood. Interesting then how much of it is pointing out how to behave towards that other person in the relationship rather than simply focusing on yourself.
> 
> If an attempt at initiating sex is rejected then are you basically supposed to still be just as affectionate, cheerful, cuddly, kissy, etc. as you would be otherwise? A simple yes or no to that question would be appreciated.
> 
> If the answer to that is no, then how do you frame a response if she starts asking why the change in behavior?


If an attempt at sex is rejected, you really should help your spouse out because that usually she is sick or hurt. Try and make them feel better first, then you can tell them to "let you know when they feel up for it". That way the ball is in their court and you did your duty by initiating in the first place.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

180 if properly implemented can work wonders. Helped my FWW come to her senses.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

ABHale said:


> If the questions start then answer them truthfully. Explain that you need intimacy and that it is hard for you to do the other things when your not getting any. With all the rejection you have received that you decided to take steps that would help you to keep from wanting it and getting rejected again. That if she wants a sexless relationship that you are ok with it. That you will find other things to do to occupy yourself.
> 
> Then ask if she is ok with you finding a friend with benefits. That you understand some people lose the want or need for sex. It’s just that you haven’t yet. That the relationship is great in all other aspects and you just need someone to relieve the sexual tension you have built up since she never wants if anymore.
> 
> That should definitely get the ball rolling.


THIS is the BEST answer for you!


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

LisaDiane said:


> THIS is the BEST answer for you!


The best answer for a man getting sex 3x per week from his wife is to go ask her if he can have a FWB too? Seriously?


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> The best answer for a man getting sex 3x per week from his wife is to go ask her if he can have a FWB too? Seriously?


THE WHOLE QUOTE is the best answer...did you read it all? The openness and honesty about needs. The offering of a solution to maintain the marriage if she isn't willing to have any sex. Directly addressing the issue and making it clear it's a major priority for him.

YES. This is the best way to start a dialog, in MY opinion. This is what I would want from my partner if I wasn't meeting his needs.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Sex is overrated...


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

In Absentia said:


> Sex is overrated...


Lol!!!
NOPE!!!!!!


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

Basically what you are asking for is sex every single day of the month. Think about that. Assuming time off for her monthly cycle and that is roughly every day for three weeks out of the month. Stop and think about that. I mean really stop and think about that. Stop and think how often she is doing it now just because you want it vs how often she is doing it out of desire. You can't possibly think that every time you are together now that she is just overwhelmed by desire? So you want even more? 

I am no sex therapist but I can tell that your sex drives are not the same. Add hormones from her cycle, job, chores, kids (if you have them) and that contributes to the sex drives being different. She knows you percieve a problem but she probably can't identify or pin point a problem that she has the capability of fixing other than just doing it more just to make you happy which she probably does already. I mean you say you are attractive. Has she mentioned not finding you physically attractive? According to you she has nothing to complain about. So that is not it.

Be honest with her, and yourself, about what sex does for you. About what sex, with her specifically, does for you. Is it just physical release? Is it to be close to her? A combination? Also look at the quality vs quantity of sex you are having. No one can have mind blowing sex every day of the month. A quickie in the laundry room is exciting every once in a while but not sustainable. Do you want more because the sex you ARE having is mediocre?


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Erudite said:


> Basically what you are asking for is sex every single day of the month. Think about that. Assuming time off for her monthly cycle and that is roughly every day for three weeks out of the month. Stop and think about that. I mean really stop and think about that.


Ok I thought about it (I want sex every day as well).

I mean the thing is, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to have sex with your wife every day, or even twice a day.

What’s wrong with that? I’d like to know. Aren’t you supposed to want to have sex with your wife?

It might not be a high priority for her or something she thinks about often or maybe even ever, but it’s not out of order or unreasonable in my opinion.


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## Erudite (Jan 28, 2015)

I want ice cream every single day. It doesn't mean that I should have ice cream every day. Or expect my SO give me ice cream every day. That is actually physically and mentally unhealthy. 

Again I am not a sex therapist. But there are so many factoes here its dizzying. Just the way that was phrased. Wanting sex from my wife. Like she is more obligated to your desires than you are to her need for down time. There seems to be this inherent demand for more and that any compromise is reluctantly given. 

So again what is being gained from this frequency of sex? Having an orgasm doesn't actually mean an emotional connection....


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## ccpowerslave (Nov 21, 2020)

Erudite said:


> I want ice cream every single day. It doesn't mean that I should have ice cream every day. Or expect my SO give me ice cream every day. That is actually physically and mentally unhealthy.


I don’t think it’s physically or mentally unhealthy to have sex everyday unless your parts get worn out.


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## Anastasia6 (May 28, 2017)

I find it odd no ones bothered to ask if said woman has children and how old they are. 3 times a week with small children is fairly good.

How long have you been married?

Did you used to have sex 5x a week when you first got married?

and no pouting and withdrawing is so unsexy. 180 leads to detachment so I’d approach it like it’s increased sex or divorce if you are going that way. Cause detachment doesn’t usually make people closer. It can scare her into sex.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

BigDaddyNY said:


> I mean it seems crazy to ask if FWB is okay when he is getting it 2-3 times per week from his wife, I'm sure she would say GTFOH!





FloridaGuy1 said:


> I think if anyone was having sex 2-3x per week and they suggested a FWB, they could get shot not just shown the door!


While I am still physically able to enjoy sex plentifully, I wouldn't settle for sex at a maximum frequency of 2-3x a week as being the norm.

As always if you choose to settle for less, you are certain to get less.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Personal said:


> While I am still physically able to enjoy sex plentifully, I wouldn't settle for sex at a maximum frequency of 2-3x a week as being the norm.
> 
> As always if you choose to settle for less, you are certain to get less.


I'm not saying he should settle necessarily, although compromise may be in order. What I am saying is based on where he is at with the situation, as in sex 3x per week and able to actually discuss it with his wife, going to her and asking if it would be okay for him to hook up with other people to bring him to his desired level of 5x per week is just plain stupid. Honestly it is really a disgusting thing to suggest in this case. It assumes OP sees his wife as just a masturbation vessel and any old piece meat will do to get him his 5 lays a week. He wants more sex with his wife, not just a random piece of ass.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

@BigDaddyNY you may find it disgusting. Yet my wife is aware of my current line on minimum usual frequency for sexual congress, being at 4x a week (of course excepting illness and the like). Yet given my very voracious sexual appetite, which my wife has been very fortunate to have enjoyed through more than 25 years. She understands my line and isn't horrified or perturbed at all by it.

The thing is, it really does depend upon the perspectives and outlooks of the people involved. Not all women or men have a problem with the idea that 2-3x a week or less, is insufficient to quell ones sexual appetite. And my wife is one of them.

That said generating sexual desire, is a different thing again. Of which a sense of obligation (fortunately there is no compulsion where I live) and expressions of boundaries, do nothing to generate or maintain enthusiastic sexual desire anyway.

In my experience if one wants to generate and sustain the sharing of more enthusiastic sex, they would do well to create and retain a safe space for all to be honest about their sexuality. Keep sex variable, so sometimes it's slow and tender, while at other times it is wanton and debauched, plus sometimes it ought to be risky and do change things up as well. While also ensuring one expresses ribald lust for their sexual partner. As well as being unapologetic of ones sexual wants, proclivities, and appetite. Plus being a dab hand at sex also goes a very long way as well. Not forgetting that great sex, doesn't come from protecting ones ego, and that it's okay to say no, just as much as it is to say yes.

Yet make no mistake standing on your sexual boundaries (whatever they may be) is a reasonable thing. And sharing them honestly, goes a long way for self-respect, respect of the other party and feeds informed consent as well.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Personal said:


> @BigDaddyNY you may find it disgusting. Yet my wife is aware of my current line on minimum usual frequency for sexual congress, being at 4x a week (of course excepting illness and the like). Yet given my very voracious sexual appetite, which my wife has been very fortunate to have enjoyed through more than 25 years. She understands my line and isn't horrified or perturbed at all by it.
> 
> The thing is, it really does depend upon the perspectives and outlooks of the people involved. Not all women or men have a problem with the idea that 2-3x a week or less, is insufficient to quell ones sexual appetite. And my wife is one of them.
> 
> ...


So, have you been clear with your wife that when sex frequency falls below 4x per week you will be taking on other sexual partners to make up for her shortcoming? And, she is all good with that?


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

BigDaddyNY said:


> So, have you been clear with your wife that when sex frequency falls below 4x per week you will be taking on other sexual partners to make up for her shortcoming? And, she is all good with that?


Yep and yep.

And my wife has limits as well.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

BigDaddyNY said:


> when sex frequency falls below 4x per week


And to expand further, since my wife and I have always maintained a rich sex life with a high frequency throughout our time together. With us still mostly sharing sex at 6x a week and often 7-9x a week, with RDO's and weekends (plus new COVID restrictions). It would be a significant and very notable departure if our shared sexual frequency fell to 3x a week or less.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Personal said:


> Yep and yep.
> 
> And my wife has limits as well.


Is it safe to assume that your sex life is not about intimacy with your wife specifically, just about sexual release and maybe intimacy with another person in general? It seems to me that the quality and frequency of sex are higher priority than the who you are having sex with. Is that an accurate statement? If not, I really can't understand how you think simply getting some elsewhere is realistic.

Just curious, what are your wife's limits?

I guess I can see how a situation could get to the point where you have to tell your spouse that this just isn't cutting it and I'm going to find satisfaction elsewhere. However, shouldn't you try to work it out first rather than just say these are my demand, meet them or I'm finding a FWB?

Here we have the OP who in general seems to be happily married, loves his wife and is having sex 3 times a week. He is trying to have sex with her a couple more times a week and is incorrectly doing the 180. Do you really think the best advice is to tell him to just go to his wife and say I need sex 2 more times a week or I'm going FWB with another women? Isn't that a bit like using a piledriver to set a finish nail? I mean he can be straight up with his feeling and desires, but that sounds like a fast track to separation and divorce. If this were a case of going from 0 to 2 I think this tactic would make sense, but no way for this case.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Is it safe to assume that your sex life is not about intimacy with your wife specifically, just about sexual release and maybe intimacy with another person in general?


My shared sex life with my wife, is specifically all about both of us enjoying the sexual intimacy we share.

My wife is an autonomous individual, who is entirely responsible for her own choices and self determination. She is under absolutely no obligation or compulsion to share sex with me, stay with me or whatever. Just as she is free to have sex with me or anyone else she chooses. Being married doesn't make us each others property. We remain together because we want to be together, we share lots of sex because we both continue to desire the sharing of it together.

Throughout our 25+ years together we have always been free to do whatever we choose to do or choose not to do. Our relationship isn't built upon obligation at all, it is built upon accepting each other, accepting each others boundaries and enjoying what we choose to share with each other.



> It seems to me that the quality and frequency of sex are higher priority than the who you are having sex with. Is that an accurate statement?


No that statement is not an accurate. For me the quality, frequency and who I share sex with, are all equally important.

That said unless one chooses to settle for less. It isn't a given that one must settle for a lesser person, to share high quality sex at a high frequency. Likewise one needn't settle for poor quality sex at a low frequency, for a better person either.

I am fortunate in having all of that, yet that fortune is certainly not by accident.

For my wife and I sex is an equal priority, amongst many (since neither of us are inclined to settle for less). And it works, and works well, since throughout our relationship, our sex life has always been rich, varied, pleasurable and frequent. And has always remained a safe and pleasurable space for us to enjoy each other.

Which is why we have continued to love one another as sexual partners through sharing 9 different addresses, times apart through my Army service and current work, both of us working full time careers, my being at home, her being redundant for a few months. Having children together, my nearly dying when I was 30, three floods. Both of us almost being killed or critically injured when dating each other, and she had her knees smashed and required surgery to repair her face. Then there was the house fire, a bush fire and the intruder who broke in through her bedroom window way back when. Plus still looking after one of our now adult children who has a serious illness that is likely to kill them, my wife surviving cancer and another related illness.

If sex were the only thing that mattered, we wouldn't be doing so well together after all we have been through.



> If not, I really can't understand how you think simply getting some elsewhere is realistic.


Well that all depends upon who you are regardless of your gender, where you live, your resources, the crowds you are a part of, how you feel about others, how they feel about you. What you are willing to do and what they are willing to do. For lots of people, it isn't difficult to find others who will share sex with them. And that includes people who aren't in sexual relationships and people who are, plus sex workers if that is what one wants (depending upon where you live).

For some it really isn't difficult to get.



> Just curious, what are your wife's limits?


My wife has many limits, including her promising me that if I ever start balding or become bald she will dump me (since she finds baldness repulsive to her). Of which she had no hesitation, in dumping a previous partner who started losing his hair way back when.

Another one of my wife's many limits is she doesn't want to be rimmed at all, on the other hand she will rim me as often as I like.

My wife has also has expressed that she she would not settle for lame sex or less sex either. Since like me the quality of the sex and the frequency of the sex she shares also matters to her. To the point that we are only together as a consequence of her asking me out on. a date, because she found her then sexual partner disappointing sexually. Which saw her dump him, after we started sharing sex together.

For some (both men and women), sharing great sex sufficiently, is foundational to wanting to continue sharing a sexual relationship. Likewise for some, non-monogamy is not a boundary either, so to share sex with others to meet shortfalls is also not a problem.



> I guess I can see how a situation could get to the point where you have to tell your spouse that this just isn't cutting it and I'm going to find satisfaction elsewhere. However, shouldn't you try to work it out first rather than just say these are my demand, meet them or I'm finding a FWB?


Perhaps you missed the following.



Personal said:


> In my experience if one wants to generate and sustain the sharing of more enthusiastic sex, they would do well to create and retain a safe space for all to be honest about their sexuality. Keep sex variable, so sometimes it's slow and tender, while at other times it is wanton and debauched, plus sometimes it ought to be risky and do change things up as well. While also ensuring one expresses ribald lust for their sexual partner. As well as being unapologetic of ones sexual wants, proclivities, and appetite. Plus being a dab hand at sex also goes a very long way as well. Not forgetting that great sex, doesn't come from protecting ones ego, and that it's okay to say no, just as much as it is to say yes.
> 
> Yet make no mistake standing on your sexual boundaries (whatever they may be) is a reasonable thing. And sharing them honestly, goes a long way for self-respect, respect of the other party and feeds informed consent as well.





BigDaddyNY said:


> Here we have the OP who in general seems to be happily married, loves his wife and is having sex 3 times a week. He is trying to have sex with her a couple more times a week and is incorrectly doing the 180. Do you really think the best advice is to tell him to just go to his wife and say I need sex 2 more times a week or I'm going FWB with another women? Isn't that a bit like using a piledriver to set a finish nail? I mean he can be straight up with his feeling and desires, but that sounds like a fast track to separation and divorce. If this were a case of going from 0 to 2 I think this tactic would make sense, but no way for this case.


If @amorous_1 wants more sex and finds what he shares with his wife to be insufficient, that hardly qualifies him as being happily married.

As to advice my suggestion was to create a safe space, be honest, to eschew protecting ones ego and other stuff, on and on (see my quote from my previous post above).

Yet I will say it again, personal boundaries are fine whatever they are. That said if his boundaries clash with hers then, she can either accept those boundaries , negotiate a compromise or not accept them at all. And that is okay whether it leads to divorce or not.


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## FloridaGuy1 (Nov 4, 2019)

Personal said:


> My shared sex life with my wife, is specifically all about both of us enjoying the sexual intimacy we share.
> 
> My wife is an autonomous individual, who is entirely responsible for her own choices and self determination. She is under absolutely no obligation or compulsion to share sex with me, stay with me or whatever. Just as she is free to have sex with me or anyone else she chooses. Being married doesn't make us each others property. We remain together because we want to be together, we share lots of sex because we both continue to desire the sharing of it together.
> 
> ...


All that yet she would leave you if you went bald? DAMN!


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

FloridaGuy1 said:


> All that yet she would leave you if you went bald? DAMN!


As a consequence of genetics, that's not a problem I will face.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Personal said:


> My shared sex life with my wife, is specifically all about both of us enjoying the sexual intimacy we share.
> 
> My wife is an autonomous individual, who is entirely responsible for her own choices and self determination. She is under absolutely no obligation or compulsion to share sex with me, stay with me or whatever. Just as she is free to have sex with me or anyone else she chooses. Being married doesn't make us each others property. We remain together because we want to be together, we share lots of sex because we both continue to desire the sharing of it together.
> 
> ...


You describe a very intimate relationship with your wife, yet it could end due to something as superficial as going bald, even after 25 years of marriage. Those things seem in opposition to each other, but whatever. 

You can want more of something without what you are getting being insufficient. 

Have you or your wife actually gone outside the marriage for sex? And was it because one of your boundaries or her boundaries were violated?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

amorous_1 said:


> Me initiating.
> 
> I'll check it out, thanks. I have seen her short TED talk video and thought it was good.
> 
> ...


This is how i reacted back years ago when my wife was complaining that i was whining about the 3x a month. 

What excuse did she give for not wanting to make love to her hubby? Not feeling like it? Not in the mood? When she ask why you lost your loving feeling...Im not in the mood/feeling it. 

You can still hug or give a peck and have no feeling behind it. Autopilot. Do it to mom or sister when i see them. There is a difference between lovey dovey hug kiss than a your someone i know hug/peck. 

She shuts you down go do something you want to do. I had home gym and started working out. I buffed up and dropped 50+ in 5-6 weeks. Was less lovey dovey and wanting sex. It was emotional self protection. If i dont initiate i will not be rejected by the woman i love. It was kind of searing over the wound i felt by her rejections.

She freaked when i dropped weight/buffed up. Kept asking why and i just said i felt i need to get healthy weight for my knees/breathing. She still did not like it and was asking if something is wrong. I would say nope.🙂and go lift weights or go out to shop and do something away from her.

She had her times of saying i looked sick or so and so keeps asking if you are sick. Gigging me for loosing 50+ in 5-6 weeks. I was sick...sick of the situation and no longer had her on a pedestal. Had already decided if things did not change soon i will be looking good and ready to hit the ground running when i leave.

She started to notice i was looking damn good with all the muscles and thought i was already half out the door. I guess she decided making time to love her hubby was more important than being a 2x divorcee with only 1/2 time with your young children.

We had a day of reckoning when i communicated how angry and resentful i had been with her for the unloving way she has treated me the past few years. From that point on there was an upward trajectory in our marriage/sex life. She said in Jan when i retire she is going ti have to double her B12 and up her testosterone to keep up. 😁 She is looking forward to Jan. and tells me constantly. My 1st priority is to keep her completely sassified and she is very greatful in return.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

BigDaddyNY said:


> You describe a very intimate relationship with your wife, yet it could end due to something as superficial as going bald, even after 25 years of marriage. Those things seem in opposition to each other, but whatever.


Sexual attraction may not matter to you, yet it certainly matters to my wife and I.

Of which my wife has told me numerous times, she asked me out because of my looks. Likewise my ex-wife’s first words when we met at a party, were to tell me how beautiful I was, on and on etc,

To the point that there is nothing superficial about the importance of attraction and its relationship to desire in a sexual relationship.

And for my wife, balding and baldness is a turn off.

So it would be a mistake to think that sexual attraction doesn’t matter to the generation of sexual desire.



> You can want more of something without what you are getting being insufficient.


What someone considers sufficient or insufficient, is subjective to them.

What you find acceptable is not what I find acceptable, and vice versa.

We are not the Borg.



> Have you or your wife actually gone outside the marriage for sex? And was it because one of your boundaries or her boundaries were violated?


By choice I haven’t gone outside of my current marriage for sex. And as far as I know my current wife asn’t either.

That said both of us have been in sexual relationships, with more than one person at a time (including at the beginning of our time together). And are both fine with non-monogamy.


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## LisaDiane (Jul 22, 2019)

BigDaddyNY said:


> Here we have the OP who in general seems to be happily married, loves his wife and is having sex 3 times a week. He is trying to have sex with her a couple more times a week and is incorrectly doing the 180. *Do you really think the best advice is to tell him to just go to his wife and say I need sex 2 more times a week or I'm going FWB with another women?* Isn't that a bit like using a piledriver to set a finish nail? I mean he can be straight up with his feeling and desires, but that sounds like a fast track to separation and divorce. If this were a case of going from 0 to 2 I think this tactic would make sense, but no way for this case.


I didn't read anything that made it sound like he was being advised to say that exactly. But do you think that response is so unkind if he has a wife who won't compromise or care about him? 

What I have heard in most of the advice of that nature is that is how the conversation could GO if she refuses to respond or to make his needs a priority...and in that case, I believe it's very good advice. Especially if he is feeling desperate and considering a new partner, she needs to know it means that much to him.

Do you have a problem with him wanting more sex than what he is getting? Do you think he should be satisfied with 3 times a week?


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## Divinely Favored (Apr 1, 2014)

Erudite said:


> I want ice cream every single day. It doesn't mean that I should have ice cream every day. Or expect my SO give me ice cream every day. That is actually physically and mentally unhealthy.
> 
> Again I am not a sex therapist. But there are so many factoes here its dizzying. Just the way that was phrased. Wanting sex from my wife. Like she is more obligated to your desires than you are to her need for down time. There seems to be this inherent demand for more and that any compromise is reluctantly given.
> 
> So again what is being gained from this frequency of sex? Having an orgasm doesn't actually mean an emotional connection....


So the wife should not also want her hubby to say i love you every day or give her a hug ir kiss daily. There are many times i have had sex with my wife in which i did not achieve orgasm. She does multiple times. But it does not lessed the emotional bond it makes me feel being intimate with her.

In tge past it was a double edges sword to be a man who has deep emotion involved with sex instead of it being a fun thing to experience like many other men. I feel very strong emotional bond through sex with my wife...on the contrary back in the days of sparsity from her i felt deep hurt and personal rejection from her denial. It hurts like a ***** and i still have painful scars from those days. Sadly most women believe guys are just it it for the fun romp in the sack and do not realize some of us guys there is an emotional yearning part to it.


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## BigDaddyNY (May 19, 2021)

Personal said:


> By choice I haven’t gone outside of my current marriage for sex. And as far as I know my current wife asn’t either.
> 
> That said both of us have been in sexual relationships, with more than one person at a time (including at the beginning of our time together). *And are both fine with non-monogamy.*


Ahh, see that is an import detail. Your marriage is very unique if both are okay with non-monogamy, and explains why you may suggest FWB as a solution. The vast majority of married people are not okay with non-monogamy and sex outside the marriage is not a viable solution. Before recommending FWB, it might be prudent to ask about their stance on monogamy.



LisaDiane said:


> I didn't read anything that made it sound like he was being advised to say that exactly. But do you think that response is so unkind if he has a wife who won't compromise or care about him?
> 
> What I have heard in most of the advice of that nature is that is how the conversation could GO if she refuses to respond or to make his needs a priority...and in that case, I believe it's very good advice. Especially if he is feeling desperate and considering a new partner, she needs to know it means that much to him.
> 
> Do you have a problem with him wanting more sex than what he is getting? Do you think he should be satisfied with 3 times a week?


It was said right hear...



ABHale said:


> If the questions start then answer them truthfully. Explain that you need intimacy and that it is hard for you to do the other things when your not getting any. With all the rejection you have received that you decided to take steps that would help you to keep from wanting it and getting rejected again. That if she wants a sexless relationship that you are ok with it. That you will find other things to do to occupy yourself.
> 
> *Then ask if she is ok with you finding a friend with benefits. That you understand some people lose the want or need for sex. It’s just that you haven’t yet. That the relationship is great in all other aspects and you just need someone to relieve the sexual tension you have built up since she never wants if anymore.*
> 
> That should definitely get the ball rolling.


It is just wrong advice in this case. It is being given based on a circumstance that does not exist in the OP's marriage. The advice says, "you just need someone to relieve the sexual tension you have built up *since she never wants if anymore*." The wife never said she wants a sexless marriage. He is trying to initiate sex 4-5x per week and they are having sex 2-3 times a week, so that bold statement is completely wrong.

I have absolutely no problem with him wanting more sex and he should not be satisfied if he wants more. No argument there at all. The issue is he is trying to get more sex *with his wife* by using the 180 and he isn't even sure how to do it correctly. So, he is using what I think is the wrong strategy for his situation, and tactically he isn't doing it right anyway. It isn't clear that he even had just a straight up conversation with his wife about physical intimacy, its importance to him, etc. Yet, some suggest just scrap everything you've been doing, tell your wife your needs (so far so good), and if she can't meet them tell her you will get sex elsewhere (that is where the advice goes off the rails). That just sounds like a way to blow up a marriage that hasn't been worked on in any substantial way.

I was in almost exactly the same situation as the OP. A few years ago we were averaging 2-3x per week, I wanted more and it seemed like it was going in the wrong direction. I had a very candid conversation with my wife that included me telling her I didn't want to be in a sexless marriage. I explained why it was important to me. She was very receptive. I helped her deal with a medical issue that was effecting our sex life, and her quality of life in general. I also worked on myself a lot. Now here we are averaging 5+/ week, 25 times in the last 30 days as a matter of fact. Now, if during that conversation I said this is what I need and if you can't step up to meet that need I'll be opening a Tinder account to find another outlet for my sexual desires, I would have created a deep level of animosity with my wife that I don't think we would have recovered from. I can only imagine what her reaction would be to an ultimatum like that. Especially if it came out of the blue with no prior discussion.

Again, if this were a sexless marriage that the OP had been trying to fix for a long time, had multiple talks with his wife and she remained unreceptive to making any change in her behavior I would be completely on board with putting that ultimatum out there. However, that is far from what the situation is here.


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