# Together yet Seperate



## Exhausted2012 (Oct 28, 2012)

Need input...should I stay in the same house or file for divorce? Been married 24 years...dated 4 years prior to wedding...marriage counseling twice, 4 kids...22,17,15,14. These are the stats. My husband is not a bad person...I am not a bad person...we don't have addiction issues, infidelity issues, etc. He has started meds for depression and I am so happy that he is feeling and seeing positive results (we are seeing it too). 

We are 2 people that did not put their marriage 1st. He put his job and hunting/fishing/snowmobiling 1st, I put our kids, extended family, and job before him. He is very disengaged at home. He goes to almost all games/concerts/performances for the kids. He has never missed their yearly pictures at the studio. He could not tell you what the kids like to eat or what happened at school that day. He has little clue about anything in my life. I give him reports as to what schedules are and hand him report cards so he can see them (he has no idea when they come home). I ask what his opinion is on things like the new confirmation program etc, but he has no opinion on any of it...never really has. He works a job he hates as it is important to him to be a good $$ provider. 

I work full time...had 2 jobs until 11 years ago when I went down to one as was hired at a higher wage. I work very hard at being a good mom with great moments...same ethic I have being a manager and it most things I do...tried this with marriage, but didn't get much in return, so eventually I stopped. My relaxation time is watching a movie with my kids and I actually have started to do some social media, a few lunch dates with friends, and once in a while some reading over the past 2 years. I also am back in school to get my BS as of this fall...I have an AS.

Housework/laundry/scheduling/bill paying/child rearing etc falls on my plate. I sleep an average of 4 hours a night and I am running out of steam...getting too old for this at 44 I guess. The kids help with a lot of the cleaning, cooking, laundry around their schedules, but there is a lot of reminding that needs to be done.

I have been telling/explaining/begging to husb that I am unhappy, really unhappy w/marriage. I want and dream about being that couple in their 80's that ooze being in love and years of life together. Not going to happen. I have no love for him as a husband...not much like either. I haven't worn my wedding ring for over a year (as a statement of my independence, not being single)...marriage really started crashing for me about 2 1/2 years ago and hasn't stopped the descent. I do care for him as a person and as the father of my kids. I also have strong attachments, obviously, from all of the years of our lives together.

Why am I not filing for divorce???at one point, our kids...until a heart to heart they had with me the weekend that we were left with no working vehicle and he drove the working vehicle to hang out at the hunting shack. I also care for my mom (she is 89 and in poor health), I had errands to do for her and ended up walking (that was actually good for me but...) and the extra time that took meant other things didn't get done that needed to be done. Great thing that happened was my 3 kids still at home walked with me and that is when the heart to heart happened. I tried to be nonchalant about the vehicle situation as I don't think the kids need to hear my complain about their dad. I thought we had done a good job of "protecting" them from the struggles of our marriage...guess what...failed!! They explained to me that they were OK...even supportive of us splitting and their concern was that we all make sure dad was situated and ok when he moved out. This is odd as we haven't fought in front of them for years. 

Why am I not filing for divorce now...finances...supporting 2 households will be more expensive...extended family...I was 15 when we started dating, I have grown up in that family, I want to be a part of their lives...won't be if we get divorced. 

Husb doesn't want divorce...says still loves me. Still wants to be "friendly" etc. I don't...I want platonic!

Is it realistic to think we can continue to live together as friends/parents to our kids so they have access to both parents at one home, so I can keep the connections with half my family and continue to afford for the kids to be in dance and voice? 

Ideas on how I can make this work? Should I continue to try?


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## DavidWYoung (Feb 3, 2012)

Hello, My name is David, what is your name and were do you live? I do not have any answers on your problems but i will talk to you if you want. bye david


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## Exhausted2012 (Oct 28, 2012)

Thank you for your offer to talk...you are from Germany I see. I did not put any profile info as I live in a small town and people like to know other's business. I live in the USA. I really am hoping for some ideas on how to handle the situation I am in, not really on this forum to chit chat. Thanks again though.


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## rfAlaska (Jul 28, 2011)

Holy cow, your post makes me tired just reading it. I don't know how you do all you do. I wish there was an easy fix to your situation but there isn't. Your husband is clueless and though you have been banging him over the head with a 2 x 4, he's not getting it. You are wise in that you realize he's not a complete jerk (just clueless) and you further realize that the collateral damage of a divorce serves to affect your life negatively to the point that it influences your attitude about the extent to which you would be happier by instigating a divorce (wicked sentence - may need to read that twice - sorry). 

What you didn't say is that one of the biggest issues you may have is that you are incredibly lonely. Sure, you have your children and you've made yourself so busy that you can be in denial about how you feel, but it doesn't fulfill your significant need for companionship. You have disengaged from your husband emotionally because you're tired of being hurt. You are trying to develop friendships but nothing will fill the emotional void relative to what is missing from your marriage. Your marriage is in coast mode because it is so much easier to do that than continually risk your feelings by rocking the boat to make things better. My best guess is that sex is either non-existent, performed as an act of duty or simply a physical release. He's happy .... of course he is, he gets to do whatever he wants. 

I'm reasonably certain all of this is true because I am there with you right down to removing my wedding ring as a show of independence (not to pretend that I'm single). My wife is a stay at home mom who lets me do just about everything except clean. We have very active kids at home and I do almost everything for their "busy-ness" including keeping the family schedule, I do most of the cooking, most of the laundry and I work as many as four jobs to keep us in our house with food on the table. I have considered divorce so many times and am still thinking about it but financially it would likely destroy me for the rest of my life. We don't often fight in front of the kids either but trust me, like your kids, my kids know exactly what's going on. They are smart little buggers and are similar to yours in age.

Here is what I am doing though I can't say any of it approaches the power of a magic wand. 

First, I have stopped doing most things for her. I do all of the laundry but I make for certain that none of hers is in anything I do. By and large, the kids do their own so it's not hard to make that happen. I keep a basket with my clothes in it, wash when needed and do a couple of loads of towels every day. If she makes a mess, I don't clean it up. The family calendar is computerized and she has easy access to it - I tell her nothing. If she misses something, oh well. I make meals that I know the kids and I like without caring about whether or not she likes them. If it weren't for the kids, I wouldn't make any meals at all - give me a sandwich and I'm good. I am still kind and I still try to serve her when it works for me but I have stopped bending over backwards. Make no mistake, my actions aren't necessarily helping my marriage, but they are making me feel better about myself.

Second, I completely disengaged from my marriage. I am trying to reengage but it is very, very, hard. At some point, I did decide that I needed to TRY because not trying was akin to giving up. I corral her and try to talk with her every day - this is harder than you might think. I try to set up a weekly date. I have been more vulnerable with my feelings because I'm told that women need that from a man in order to be vulnerable themselves. Yes, I have been slammed a lot and doing this is really, really hard.

Third, at some point I decided to stop caring about whether or not I pissed my wife off. I used to be deathly afraid of divorce - I'm not afraid any more - I don't necessarily want it, but if it happens, I'll deal with it. I tell her how I feel. When she pisses me off, I tell her. If she doesn't do something that I think she should do, I tell her (and then we fight - oh well). If I want something from her, I bug her about it. The bottom line, is that I've decided there are certain things I want from the relationship and I am going to chase them even if it makes her mad or uncomfortable. Yes, critical mass is growing and she is either going to get on board or push away. Either way, I'm comfortable with what happens.

Fourth, I have started to build a life outside of my marriage. I am working less and all but forcing her to work outside the home to make up for it. I am picking up hobbies that are affordable and trying to build friendships with other guys. There was a time when I would never consider going out on an evening or a Saturday to do something that I wanted to do. Now, within reason, I do it. It's not like I'm going out every night (or even once a week) but I'm doing things that make me happy. I would LOVE to be doing some of those things with her, but she's not interested.

Fifth, I am no longer the first one to say, "I'm sorry. " I have a pretty good sense of right and wrong and try hard to tune in to what my wife needs. I screw up regularly and when I do, I admit it, apologize and move on. If the issue is nebulous with regard to fault, I refuse to take it on. She's good at turning issues in to me and I am no longer accepting that. If she tries to make something my fault, I restate my position and move on.

Sixth, I am calling her bluff. For example, we disagree, she leaves and sends me a text that she might not come home and will stay in a hotel. I used to say, "OMG, please come home." Not any more, I say, "go ahead, enjoy the time alone. I think the kids and I will go to a movie. Please let me know if you're not coming home for sure so I don't worry." 

Finally, with few exceptions, I am communicating all along the way about what's going on.

Is this helping? I have no idea if it's helping my marriage but it is helping me feel so much better about myself. I don't feel like a doormat any more and that's doing loads for my personal self-esteem. Some of this has been very hard for me because I am a servant and I like doing things for people - especially those that I care about. Having to almost force myself NOT to do them for my wife has been really hard.

I don't even know you but I would bet a really nice dinner that you and I are cut from the very same bolt of cloth, so you are going to struggle to disengage from a lot of what you are doing as well. We also share the hopeless romantic notion of wanting to "feel" in love. I'm not there and desperately want that feeling but I'm not sure if I ever will feel that way. I'm coming to terms with that but I won't stop trying.

Be very aware of opposite sex friends. You are incredibly vulnerable and could easily fall into something that would upset the essence of your personal morality. You don't need that mental torture to go along with everything else that's going on. I made a mistake in this regard and I have stopped doing what I was doing but the pain of getting out of it was pure hell on SO MANY levels. I didn't have an affair but I was absolutely walking the line. It practically killed me to back away and it still affects me more than a year later. STAY AWAY, it's just not worth it.

I'm not sure if I've helped you at all but perhaps knowing that you aren't alone is marginally helpful. The bottom line is that I'm trying to maintain a balance of focusing on what makes me happy and serving my family. It's not easy but a trip to the psych unit isn't a great option either. In the end, my marriage will survive and be better or it won't survive and my life will change. I care, but I don't care (that oxymoron makes perfect sense to me though I realize that it might not make sense to anyone else). Perhaps, I care, but I'm too worn out to really care makes more sense. 

I am sorry for this long post, but I couldn't stop writing. Care for yourself - keep posting.


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## devotion (Oct 8, 2012)

While we don't have kids (which does complicate things) I feel my wife went through a lot of the same internal thought patterns over the past year until she finally 'sprung' on me a divorce -- while in her eyes she's been telling me all along she's been unhappy. I can't dispute that fact, and I can't dispute that I've been clueless. But the problem is with her waiting so long to really give me the 'ship up or shape out' talk was that now the only option in her mind is to shape out -- there was never really an option for reconciliation. 

So I am not mad or upset that we're parting ways, I am mad and upset at both myself and her for not having this discussion many months ago. The end result may have been the same, but at least at that point she would have been open to marriage counseling, etc, and to maybe see that I was willing to change when what I thought was a perfectly fine marriage was about to end (rather than what I perceived as 'regular' complaining). 

I know every situation is different but as a man who was clueless and ended up down the same road, I think knowing that you are travelling that road is important and may gave him a chance to change while you are willing to accept the change and see the value in the marriage -- because if you let the anger and despair build so as to cloud all the GOOD things in your marriage (which happened to me) then there will be nothing left worth saving.

Good luck.


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## Exhausted2012 (Oct 28, 2012)

devotion said:


> While we don't have kids (which does complicate things) I feel my wife went through a lot of the same internal thought patterns over the past year until she finally 'sprung' on me a divorce -- while in her eyes she's been telling me all along she's been unhappy. I can't dispute that fact, and I can't dispute that I've been clueless. But the problem is with her waiting so long to really give me the 'ship up or shape out' talk was that now the only option in her mind is to shape out -- there was never really an option for reconciliation.
> 
> So I am not mad or upset that we're parting ways, I am mad and upset at both myself and her for not having this discussion many months ago. The end result may have been the same, but at least at that point she would have been open to marriage counseling, etc, and to maybe see that I was willing to change when what I thought was a perfectly fine marriage was about to end (rather than what I perceived as 'regular' complaining).
> 
> ...


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Exhausted2012 (Oct 28, 2012)

Exhausted2012 said:


> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you for sharing your experience with me. My spouse says he thought everything was fine too. I tried hard not to nag or complain. Perhaps he too thought it was normal complaining. I have been trying to get him to realize things for over 2 years. I asked him about marriage counseling. He wasn't interested as we had been there done that. By his own admission he didn't change anything after either time. I did. I guess he was probably right about it being a waste of time to do again. I wish I knew how else to have gotten his attention. I tried inviting him for drives to try to connect. I listened and we had conversations about his life. I brought up things I wanted to do with him like a date night but he never made time. I tried explaining nicely sometimes, pissed off other times and even fighting tears off sadness other times. I tried notes and reminders. I finally went to ignoring. No sex unless he really pushed for it, then I felt obligated. No cuddling, or sitting by each other or talking. I am still amazed he had no clue. I must just not of hot the right technique to get his attention until I told him I was filing for divorce. Then he wanted to try and I still care greatly for him so I tried again a which sadly ended with being hurt again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## devotion (Oct 8, 2012)

Again, posting as the clueless man, I think actually throwing divorce out there woke him out of his relationship coma, but that may not be enough (it wasn't for my relationship, either). It does seem that you are still struggling with the decision because you did marry a good man and create a good life in many ways, but the relationship is not right and may not be fixable. 

As long as you've given the relationship a CHANCE after bringing out the D-word I think you should have a clear conscience. When I was told divorce was on the horizon I was not given any chance to change because her heart was already closed. Only you can decide when its time to move on, but take it from one idiot talking for another, sometimes we just don't realize how close we were to the end till we are told the end is near  Give him a fair chance and then follow through if necessary.

Best of luck and keep us posted, and if you need more input from the clueless let me know


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## Exhausted2012 (Oct 28, 2012)

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Exhausted2012 (Oct 28, 2012)

I will give him a real chance. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## livinfree (Sep 7, 2012)

@rfAlaska, im right there with you detaching like you are almost verbatim.

@devotion, exactly I never made the distinction between regular nagging and the cry for help. Her heart closed off and another man stepped in. Now we are at a point that is not fixable. That window of opportunity is now gone. 

Don't miss that chance.


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## devotion (Oct 8, 2012)

Thanks. I told my soon to be ex-wife that this forum helped me understand that while you can try to save the marriage it can be too late, and it is unfortunately too late for a lot of us. We can only hope to be smarter next time, and also to have partners who will give us the honest, hard feedback that sometimes is hard to hear when you think everything's just fine. And my situation is like planbnomore, though she won't admit it. I'm pretty sure she's taken by another man already. 

Good luck to the OP and if it still doesn't work out then you'll be secure in knowing you did everything possible.


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## Exhausted2012 (Oct 28, 2012)

Update: It has now been 1 month since I posted. Husb has started depression meds. Has had ups and downs adjusting to the meds for the 1st 2 weeks. I actually held on to hope that things would start to improve and they did for about 3 1/2 days at the beginning of the 3rd week. He actually had conversations and laughed. It was so great to see!!!! He has returned to the same old, same old. We did fill out a "Cohabitation agreement" I found online as we needed to set some guidelines and talk about the future. It served its purpose of getting the conversation accomplished. I was stupid and let myself be hopeful that there would be improvement after those few days. I know I let myself believe it was possible because I wanted that to be the end result. Now I am dealing with the disappointment/loss again. He is also in counseling and has asked that I attend his next session to tell the counselor my views on his emotional state. I will do this as he is the father of my children and I want him to be healthly for them. I have made the decision that I will no longer try or have any hope of improving the marriage. I cannot go through this emotional stress again. He is upset that I will not attend my Christmas Party for work with him as he wants to go. I simply am currently too angry and disappointed to go out and fake having a good time as if all is just perfect in our world. He thinks I am being weird as he does not understand why I am stressed with this regression. I have upset children as they enjoyed him those few days and want him back like that and I can't fix it for them which is breaking my heart. They really didn't think we would be happily married or anything that fast and easy, but they did have an involved dad and they liked it. I am running out of strength to keep picking up the pieces. I would like to be weak and have someone take care of things just for a little bit...just a couple of hours, but I know that is not going to happen. I feel bad for me, but worse for the girls. Better go and get a couple hours of sleep...just needed a few minutes to cry for my daughter's feelings of loss and vent for a small moment of sanity.


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## JohnDoe2012 (Nov 29, 2012)

Exhausted,

I have been watching this thread, and for the first time I am posting on this forum.

Your situation has really struck me, as it is similar to my situation with my wife. And, we are the same age (44). But this thread is about you not me; I just want to say that I am in a position to understand.

You have done all the right things, just as I have (your "begged" note was very familiar to me). Sounds like he has made some half-hearted attempts to work things out, to no avail. And you have been trying for years. Again, all very familiar to me.

The hard lesson I have learned is this: things aren't going to change. This will be your marriage forever. You gave it enough of an effort over enough time.

I don't know what advice to give you, on staying or divorcing. What I will advise though is this: if you decide to stay in the marriage, then you have to accept that the marriage as it currently is. Can you do that? For me, that thought is miserable; but for now I stay for our (young teen) daughter. And you have the same concerns, you don't want to give up family. So it's a dilemma. But I'm starting to think that family can work out after divorce, maybe even better than a loveless marriage. Or am I fooling myself? I'm still struggling with it. But no matter what, and I firmly believe this to be your case as well based on your posts, the marriage will always be loveless and unhappy.

I hope to learn more from your situation, and I wish you the best through this (nothing else to call it) tragedy.

John Doe


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## Exhausted2012 (Oct 28, 2012)

JohnDoe2012 said:


> Exhausted,
> 
> I have been watching this thread, and for the first time I am posting on this forum.
> 
> ...


Sadly I do admit you are correct. It will not change. I now have to decide what I am going to do, what I will give up. I hope you are able to figure out what is best for your life as this situation sucks!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnDoe2012 (Nov 29, 2012)

It does suck. I am in conflict every day. I make a decision to leave, and then I get an overwhelming feeling of loss for my daughter. So I make a decision to stay, and then it's a feeling of misery. And around around it goes.


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## Exhausted2012 (Oct 28, 2012)

JohnDoe2012 said:


> It does suck. I am in conflict every day. I make a decision to leave, and then I get an overwhelming feeling of loss for my daughter. So I make a decision to stay, and then it's a feeling of misery. And around around it goes.


How does your daughter feel about her parents getting divorced? Is your wife a good mom and would she use your daughter as a weapon in a divorce? Those are things to consider. Last night sealed the deal at my house so to speak. I asked and he agreed last Wednesday to take our daughter to the dr for what turned out to be a sinus infection as I was booked solid at work all week and she needed to be seen. I could have cancelled a meeting and taken her but he has every Wednesday off and he is her dad. He took her in. She was given a prescription. What I didn't know is he never filled it. She is 17 so she takes care of taking her own medicine so I didn't know she didn't have it to take until she said something last night. We all forget things but the pharmacy we use is at the clinic she was seen at. It makes no sense. He then didn't let me know he didn't get the meds and didn't pick them up himself. It prob sounds crazy that one thing like this would seal the deal on a relationship, but for me it did. It is about responsibility and he and I obviously have a different opinions on what that word means. Truthfully I enabled this lack of responsibility as I have always picked up whatever slack was there. Last night's situation sealed off any possible tiny hole of hope that may have remained. The future for me is to live with my daughters and their father until I get my head wrapped around what I an willing to do to keep contact with 1/2 of my family or if it is time to say love you, but bye. There will be no more tears or energy spent on working on our marriage. I will continue to 
keep a positive relationship with him as the father of my children. You should find out how your daughter really feels about the divorce. She may want that for you as she probably knows how unhappy you are. Just be very careful to not bash her mom to her or ask her to pick sides. Also be very very careful to not talk to her like she is your friend. It is easy to do but not a good choice. A friend of mine have me some good advice. She and her mom had an agreement that if the mom started to complain about the dad it was ok for the daughter to say mom...stop please. That was very important as the daughter didn't have to worry about upsetting the mom really didn't want to put her daughter in that position in the 1st place. The daughter only once had to remind her mom to stop. I have that agreement with my daughters and have asked that their father do the same. I don't know if talking with your daughter will help but at least you will know where she stands. Just a thought for you. Take care.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnDoe2012 (Nov 29, 2012)

I totally understand what you mean by the last straw. Someone might say how can such a little thing as a forgotten prescription seal the deal? But I understand its not that one issue, it's the culmination if many issues over a long period if time. Your situation is so similar to mine. For me it's my wife's apathy about everything. Typical situation, I planned a "get the spark back" getaway for us. She was all agreeable. But guess what? She forgot about it. Made plans with friends for the same weekend. Like you, it's not this one incident, but many incidents of apathy. She is a good mom; I don't know how our daughter will feel about divorce, we do our best to shield our troubles from her. But she is bright and mature , she must have an idea. I would never bad mouth her mother to her, and she would do the same for me. But she still refuses to engage in the marriage.

Some advice maybe in how to cope: start living your life independently. I'm not saying to have an affair; but, get out there socially when you can, just as an escape. Today I met a friend for a couple if beers (going to a bar is something I rarely do); nothing fancy but it was good to just hang out, have some laughs. I am joining a running club where the average age is 40's; they also do things like cookouts and charity events. Just a chance to live life a little (though I live in the northeast, not sure how running will work out in the winter, I am a new runner!). I am finding that these independent yet benign social outlets are very beneficial. And if (when?) the day comes when we do divorce, I would already be plugged into things. Know what I mean? I do suggest you pursue something similar.

Best if luck and I do hope to continue to hear about your situation, and offer any support that a stranger can give.

John


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## Exhausted2012 (Oct 28, 2012)

JohnDoe2012 said:


> I totally understand what you mean by the last straw. Someone might say how can such a little thing as a forgotten prescription seal the deal? But I understand its not that one issue, it's the culmination if many issues over a long period if time. Your situation is so similar to mine. For me it's my wife's apathy about everything. Typical situation, I planned a "get the spark back" getaway for us. She was all agreeable. But guess what? She forgot about it. Made plans with friends for the same weekend. Like you, it's not this one incident, but many incidents of apathy. She is a good mom; I don't know how our daughter will feel about divorce, we do our best to shield our troubles from her. But she is bright and mature , she must have an idea. I would never bad mouth her mother to her, and she would do the same for me. But she still refuses to engage in the marriage.
> 
> Some advice maybe in how to cope: start living your life independently. I'm not saying to have an affair; but, get out there socially when you can, just as an escape. Today I met a friend for a couple if beers (going to a bar is something I rarely do); nothing fancy but it was good to just hang out, have some laughs. I am joining a running club where the average age is 40's; they also do things like cookouts and charity events. Just a chance to live life a little (though I live in the northeast, not sure how running will work out in the winter, I am a new runner!). I am finding that these independent yet benign social outlets are very beneficial. And if (when?) the day comes when we do divorce, I would already be plugged into things. Know what I mean? I do suggest you pursue something similar.
> 
> ...


I am so sorry about your weekend get away situation. I understand as my husbands excuse was he wanted to hang w his brother and that was the weekend he wanted to. His bro lives 3 hours away. Not like he was home from Japan or anything like that. I do think it is a good idea to start to make some if those connections but I am worried about ending up meeting someone I really like and then there is that affair temptation. It is stupid but part of me feels guilty moving on in that way. Maybe I am just crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnDoe2012 (Nov 29, 2012)

Not crazy at all. I have never been in such emotional conflict, I know all the different feelings you are having. The affair temptation is a real risk. But we still have a lot if life ahead of us; if the marital situation truly won't change and will remain loveless, well that is no way to live.

I'm talking to myself as much as to you as I type this . I just don't know what to do. But I will say, getting out doing a bit of stuff on my own has been refreshing.


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## Jason439 (Jul 16, 2012)

livinfree said:


> @rfAlaska, im right there with you detaching like you are almost verbatim.
> 
> @devotion, exactly I never made the distinction between regular nagging and the cry for help. Her heart closed off and another man stepped in. Now we are at a point that is not fixable. That window of opportunity is now gone.
> 
> Don't miss that chance.


I agree with this too. I'm in the same place now. Sometimes men are clueless. I know I ignored the signs and thought she was just being a typical nagging wife.


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## caladan (Nov 2, 2012)

JohnDoe2012 said:


> I am joining a running club where the average age is 40's; they also do things like cookouts and charity events. Just a chance to live life a little (though I live in the northeast, not sure how running will work out in the winter, I am a new runner!).
> John


FYI John, I also live in the north-east, and I currently run in the winter. It's amazing what these pressures push people to do. By all means go for it.


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