# A Question For Men...



## LacyS

Over 20 years ago, my boyfriend, now husband, and I were broken up for about a month due to his refusal to commit to our relationship of over two years. I began going out with a guy who would come by from time to time at my work (Pharmacy) and the relationship culminated with a ONS. I began to realize how big of a mistake this was and as fate goes, my BF and I got back together and eventually were married ten months later.

The night after the ONS, I called my then BF to come over, at which time I confessed the entire thing about being intimate with another man the night before. After smashing his fist against the windshield (we were sitting in his car in my parent's driveway) he just looked hurt - like he deflated. He had warned me the other guy was just out to get into my pants, etc. I more or less got out of the car quickly as I was afraid the loss of temper would return.

As it turned out, we reconciled, but I was grilled on all of the specifics of the ONS over and over. Moreover, over the years, it has come up, usually briefly, from time to time. Each time the questions get more specific. I also answer as truthfully as I can from what I remember except for one thing: and this one thing has caused a MAJOR issue of which I don't quite understand and as to why I am here asking for a man's opinion.

At the initial confession all those years ago, he asked if we used protection. I assumed then that he was concerned about STDs and thus lied and told him that we had used protection. The guy did offer, but I told him that "I was on something (meaning birth control)" so the choice was mine.

About a month ago, this came back up as we recently moved to the city where the other guy has a business. We know this from FaceBook. He was asking questions like would I speak if I/we ran into him. Then, for some reason, the details of the ONS came up and this time I admitted that we did NOT use protection. The color went out of his face. He got very quite!

After going to bed, at three in the morning, I woke up to hear him sobbing in the den. I got him to come to bed, held him, told him how sorry I was and didn't understand why he was so upset about learning this after so many years have gone by. He explained the problem was knowing that another man had ejaculated inside me and that I let him do it.
He further explained that sex with a condom was hard enough to deal with, and now a 20 year old lie adds insult to injury.

I don't know what to do. The next day, we managed to get up and go to church, but after he started crying again and said it will never be the same again. I am as devastated as I am confused to this reaction. For the record, since marriage there has be absolutely NO infidelity on either of our parts. We both are good spouses to each other.

So my question, to men, is:
Would the knowledge of another man ejaculating inside your girl/wife be a deal breaker? How important is this to you. I never thought about it, but now it seems to me that he feels that I am soiled.

Also, for the ladies: Does the thought of your guy doing this to another weigh the same way? Does it even matter?

Sorry for the length of this post, but sincerely need clarification as things are not getting better. He is now retired and has days off and is constantly working out at the gym (never did this before) and is looking better than ever. He just gives me these looks?!?!?!


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## PBear

To me, it wouldn't be so much that some other guy had done that. It would be the lie. And keep in mind that to you, this happened long long ago. To him, this happened last month. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## convert

to me it would not be a deal breaker.

what [email protected] here is the trickle truth (I hated the TT with a passion)
It is like a DD (discovery day) all over again

you see, now he is going to be questioning every other detail of that ONS, what else have you not told him or was this a lie or that a lie.


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## badmemory

LacyS said:


> So my question, to men, is:
> Would the knowledge of another man ejaculating inside your girl/wife be a deal breaker? How important is this to you. I never thought about it, but now it seems to me that he feels that I am soiled.


Well, if you are in a "committed" relationship with that GF or it's your wife; it's devastating and emasculating. For a lot of men, yes it is a deal breaker. For those that attempt to R, the mind movies last for years and years. For me, whether protection was used or not, it would be just as devastating. 

That said, I'd have to say that if you had truly broken up with him then, your husband is over reacting to the point that he needs counseling. Condom or not. 

I can understand his disappointment for you heading straight to bed another man when you broke up, but you admitted what you did and he agreed to marry you. He needs to get past that.

In regards to you lying about the condom, that was bad choice to make on your part. You owe him an apology and you shouldn't minimize his feelings. But again, in the grand scheme of things, after 20 years, I believe his reaction is way over the top.


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## Married but Happy

The lies would be a problem, but not the ONS or how it was conducted. You were broken up at the time, so while it may have been good to be honest that you had the ONS, the rest of the details should have been either entirely omitted or entirely disclosed.

While this was long ago, THIS is new information to him. For whatever reason, it bothers him, and he is entitled to feel how he feels. The fewer other partners either of you had prior to marriage, the more significance each may seem to have, as well as each act may take on greater significance.


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## Wolf1974

And again a perfect example of why ALL information need to be on the table before marriage cause these are the things that can occur. Why do people think it is ok to lie is beyond me.

To your direct question. This is obviously a big deal to your spouse. Possibly because he rationalized it wasn't that bad because a condom was used. Or maybe finding out about this 20 year old lie and wonders what else you rug swept? You are going to need to have a frank discussion with him about what HE now needs to move past this. 

I can tell you right now that saying it happened so long ago what's the big deal shows a total lack of understanding on your part. To him this is new information and might as well happened yesterday. You have a lot of listening to do.


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## Squeakr

For me it would be a two fold violation. 

First it would hurt on the trust level and that lies were told and maintained after all the years. It shows a lack of character to be able to look directly into someone's eyes and lie without guilt or remorse, and only caring about protecting yourself and not giving fully to the other. Which brings me to the second level:

The second, is that it shows to me lack of concern for safety (for themselves and for me, my WW was also on BC and yet thought only about that and nothing about STD exposure, showing both lack of health concern and stupidity from my viewpoint) and it is a sense of closeness, connection, and intimacy that can only be replicated through these sexual actions. It shows to me an ability to freely give one's self to another in the most intimate of ways and so easily. This especially hurts if it was something that you have never had given to you from your WS, or had to wait eons to be given to you so freely (if it ever even was given so freely, think about whether you were so open to him this way when you had your first intimate encounter, and if he had to work for it, he feels less "important or special" to you than this guy was).

These are my views on this and not everyone will feel the same or agree, but I can see these as being the major hurdles here.


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## murphy5

you guys were broken up, ended. You were perfectly right to have sex with whomever you wished. It was not cheating. 

And it is a little childish for a man to even ask the details of a ONS that you had when there was no relationship at all. Under these unique conditions, i just would never have told him the truth. It was none of his business.

If you guys had been going "steady" at the time, then it is a different story...ONS with another guy would have been cheating and implied something about your morals.

I would say to just tough it out until he gets over it.

I think this is similar to "the right to remain silent" in USA laws. It is against your rights for the cops to arrest you, ask you "have you ever broken any law", and then try to prosecute you for lying. They do not have a right to ask. Same answer to husband for questions about some other guy 20 years ago when you and him were no longer dating: "you do not have the right to ask"


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## LacyS

I did not mean to Trickle Truth, honestly didn't know that term until lately. I think what I was thinking was that the act of intimacy in itself spoke to the damages. It took a while for him, after the initial confession, when I revealed the position (me on top) as he felt that I did him more than he did me, since I controlled the pace, etc. You know, you don't think of that stuff as its happening. I tried, at the time, to laugh it off by saying it was partly his fault for being so much "bigger" than the ONS guy; as being on top allows you to control the depth of penetration. Sorry, not trying to sound vulgar here. That didn't work well anyway, as I remember. For the next twenty years he referred to that guy as pencil d*ck. 
Also, the fact it was the first date with the other guy (wine moved it along) when my husband courted me excessively for two months before we were intimate. I can see how that would emasculate him.
Truthfully, as I explained to hubby, I was angry as hell at the moment, figured we were over (I initiated the famous "I need space" speech). I had pursued him relentlessly for months and he seemed unwilling to commit. Didn't know if he was seeing other people; didn't care. In my heart, it was more or less revenge against love (him) more than attraction to this guy. My hubby today is very attractive, as it seems, to me, men get more attractive with age. The other night, our daughter was in town for a visit, and we went to a Mexican Restaurant for dinner. She mentioned how, to her, it seemed the women in the restaurant noticed him... a lot. He went to the restroom, so I watched as he came back, and it was true. At one point when he walked by the bar to get back to our table, a woman, young and very pretty, turned to watch him walk by and looked at her friend with raised eyebrows. This kind of has me worried. Would he plant his seed, in revenge. I don't think he would,,, but... he's very hurt.
If I knew then what I know now...


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## mahike

It really depends on the guy but I think it really boils down to the lie. While trust is a basic for all marriages the trust with sex I think runs deeper with men

He is going to need help with this and do not discount the pain he is feeling or even if you think this is a minor point it is a big one for him


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## PBear

Have you considered counseling?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## happyman64

Lacy

Were you and your husband each others first?

HM


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## convert

Murphy is right this is not a case of cheating.

you were not going steady with you now husband.

it boils down to the lie.

it is fixable 

I wish you luck Lacy


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## LacyS

Murphy, I see what you're meaning. He has reminded me that I broke it off with him at the "I need more space" speech, but he did not break it off with me. I remember him, then, saying this, but, in my mind, we were apart, or this would have never happened. 

As someone here has pointed out, this news is new to him, as if it happened very recently. I have empathized if the shoe were on the other foot, would I feel/react the same. Don't know. I've never been cheated on and this is what terrifies me.

What if he breaks up with me, leaves me, over this and has his on ONS? Believe me, if you see this guy, he would not have a second's problem bedding someone else. So then what? Divorce? What if he does it on the sly and then tells me the details in 20 or so years? Fairplay? He does really look at me differently. I am concerned.

If I talk to him about it, what can I say to make him understand that I didn't mean to Trickle Truth. I have never been unfaithful in marriage. Telling him we were broken up and that he needs to get over it is NOT going to work here. I may as well tell him to go have an affair. I need to smooth this out somehow. I am sorry.


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## norajane

I never would have told the details of the ONS. I would have told him about having the ONS after we had gotten back together (but not before, since there is no reason he needed to know since we were no longer together), but the details are really none of his business, IMO. Details seem to weigh heavily on some men's minds and serve no good purpose.



> Moreover, over the years, it has come up, usually briefly, from time to time.


After 20 years of marriage, I am having a hard time understanding why this ONS keeps coming up in your relationship. Why has he been holding it over your head for 20 years? You broke up and were no longer a couple. Both of you were free to do whatever you wanted with whomever you wanted. 

Why didn't you refuse to talk about it after the first 20 times he brought it up?!!


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## Squeakr

LacyS said:


> Also, the fact it was the first date with the other guy (wine moved it along) when my husband courted me excessively for two months before we were intimate. I can see how that would emasculate him.
> 
> Truthfully, as I explained to hubby, I was angry as hell at the moment, figured we were over (I initiated the famous "I need space" speech). I had pursued him relentlessly for months and he seemed unwilling to commit. Didn't know if he was seeing other people; didn't care. In my heart, it was more or less revenge against love (him) more than attraction to this guy.
> This kind of has me worried. Would he plant his seed, in revenge. I don't think he would,,, but... he's very hurt.
> If I knew then what I know now...


Like I said, he may seem in your eyes to be "less" than the other guy (read emasculated or less desired/ loved, etc) as you gave it up so freely on the first date with this other guy (I won't call him an OM as no commitment existed at the time, and you never mentioned if the first time for you and your H, after holding out so long, was with or without protection). Guys can feel really bad when they find something they wanted/ desired, and felt they deserved had to be "earned" while any other person got it so freely for the offering (and they still might have never gotten it to this day).

I honestly don't think he will be spiteful and revenge driven, but you know him more than we do, and he may feel he deserves it, as what you describe is that you did that exactly same revenge driven thing, so....

You need to give him time to deal with it and show him that you still love and desire him even though it may not feel that way to him.

Since it happened before the marriage and you have kept the lie so long, he may question the entire relationship and what else you have hidden/ lied about over the course of the M. I know that is exactly what happened in my M.


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## sidney2718

My view is different than that of the majority. First, you were broken up at the time and so the ONS and the details are none of your husband's business. Especially since the break-up is really on him. Have you quizzed him about what he did during that period?

Second, the question was "did you use protection?" When I read that I understood it to be a question about possible fertilization. You told us that you were on the pill and so you answered "yes", that you were protected, because you were.

And that should have been that.

The entire bit about who ejaculated where is, in my mind, a stupid attempt to control you. Would it have been better if he'd ejaculated in your mouth?, your anus? or on your chest? 

My suspicion is that your husband is still not OK with the ONS. That is HIS problem, not yours. But I suspect that you will get nowhere telling him this. So my suggestion is marriage counseling. Perhaps a neutral third party can talk some sense into him.


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## Squeakr

norajane said:


> I never would have told the details of the ONS. I would have told him about having the ONS after we had gotten back together (but not before, since there is no reason he needed to know since we were no longer together), but the details are really none of his business, IMO. Details seem to weigh heavily on some men's minds and serve no good purpose.
> 
> After 20 years of marriage, I am having a hard time understanding why this ONS keeps coming up in your relationship. Why has he been holding it over your head for 20 years? You broke up and were no longer a couple. Both of you were free to do whatever you wanted with whomever you wanted.
> 
> Why didn't you refuse to talk about it after the first 20 times he brought it up?!!


I disagree with this ideal. Hiding details sounds like you are ashamed of what you have or haven't done or that you are hiding something since you didn't feel comfortable or want to do it with your spouse or soon to be spouse. I know for me it is hard to think that I am not good enough for her to be that close and giving with me as she was with another man. To the girl it may be nothing but just another act, but to the guy it can be a sign of full intimacy and acceptance (and doesn't your spouse deserve that and you fully?). 

Just because they were separate doesn't mean that anything they did during the separation doesn't affect both of them. Since she initiated the separation and then has sex with that first guy would speak volumes to me as a guy, and I think I would deserve some explanation to insure that it wouldn't happen again. We see this sort of time out on here again and again, where the ideal is that we were on a hiatus so therefor it doesn't matter. Wrong, it still matters. The fact that her actions put their health (his and hers) at risk by having sex unprotected and lied about it is an issue (as he didn't even have a chance really to decide his true course of action with all the facts. Maybe he would have liked to have a full battery of tests before getting back together had he have known). Yes he might not have the right to know what she did exactly with the other guy, but he DEFINITELY has every right to know if she was safe in that action or put their health at risk, as it could ultimately put his life at risk.

Not trying to sound downing or scolding for your actions, but I feel that he had a right to know at least that truth.


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## LacyS

Happyman, no, we were not each other's first. He was my second after a long high school romance. Thus, there have been 3 for me, including my husband. Truthfully, I never knew what being sexually fulfilled as until my husband (girls know what I mean here). He does it for me, everytime. He can sit beside me and just lay that sexy manly hand on my leg and, well, you know the rest. He could walk by me with his shirt sleeves rolled up a little showing his arms, and my god, my knees go weak. No man on earth has bluer eyes than him. 

He is the one and now I have to fix this. I am considering counseling. The fact that he is fairly committed to our religion (Christianity) as well as keeping his vows, is what's keeping me sane right now.
He used to text several times a day, cute little things to make me laugh such as pics of our new puppy laying on its back while sleeping. Sweet cards, out of the blue, left on the car console the next morning when I got into the car to go to work. Now, nothing.
Nothing but glancing up and see that he's looking at me. Those blues eyes seem so hurt. Damn it!


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## badmemory

As far as I'm concerned, there's quite a bit of difference between lying about the details of infidelity and lying about the details of the tryst you had when you were supposedly broken up.

If that's the worst thing you've done in 20 years of marriage you shouldn't feel too bad.


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## norajane

LacyS said:


> Happyman, no, we were not each other's first. He was my second after a long high school romance. Thus, there have been 3 for me, including my husband.


And has he accounted for every kiss and ejaculation in his previous relationships? Told you all the details of each encounter? Explained to you in great detail as to whether his previous lovers breasts were bigger/smaller/better than yours? Told you whether they were on top or how often he went down on them? Did he apologize to you that he had other relationships? Have you been holding his previous lovers over his head for 20 years? No? then he can pull up his big boy pants instead of continuing to grill you about this for 20 years and continuing to hold it over your head this long.



> He is the one and now I have to fix this.


Why can't he try to work through his issues? Is he trying at all to fix this for himself since you cannot erase this sole ONS? He doesn't seem to be trying because he has been bringing this up for 20 years. Aren't Christians supposed to leave the judging up to God?



> I am considering counseling.


If he keeps bringing it up, or keeps punishing you for this, tell him you are done talking about this unless it's with a marriage counselor since you two aren't getting anywhere with it.


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## tulsy

LacyS said:


> Over 20 years ago, my boyfriend, now husband, and I were broken up for about a month due to his refusal to commit to our relationship of over two years....The night after the ONS, I called my then BF to come over, at which time I confessed the entire thing ...


You say you were broken up for a month, then had a ONS with pencil, and the next day told your "then boyfriend". So were you still "seeing" the ex? 

So you did it all to hurt him?
You said you did it for revenge, and then immediately called your ex-boyfriend to tell him, knowing it would cause him pain.

This doesn't make sense...how "broken up" were you? It sounds like you were still very much in contact with your ex-boyfriend, because if you were actually broken up for a month, why would you call him up out of the blue, a month after breaking up with him (which you blame on his refusal to commit), just to tell him you had a ONS? You really wanted him hurt him?

That's some cruel chit right there.



LacyS said:


> ...Also, the fact it was the first date with the other guy (wine moved it along) when my husband courted me excessively for two months before we were intimate....I initiated the famous "I need space" speech...I had pursued him relentlessly for months and he seemed unwilling to commit....


What do you mean? If you were dating, what were you looking for, a ring? 

I'm missing something here.

You said you gave the "I need space" speech...was pencil already in the picture? Did you break up so you could bang pencil, and then throw it in your boyfriends face? The fact that you admit to doing this for revenge is not sweetening the story. 

I'm trying to imagine how I would feel if I was your husband, so please help me clarify the timeline:

You liked boy. You pursued boy. You and boy dated. 
After months of him waiting, you finally gave up the goods (sex)?
You continue to date for 2 years.
You wanted commitment (DETAILS PLEASE, did you talk about marriage or something? Did you think he wasn't exclusive? Please elaborate here)
You break up with him.
One month later, you go out with pencil.
You go out with pencil and have sex, first night.
You contact ex-boyfriend the next day and tell him.
He is hurt, you TT (which is lying), and you leave.
You guys get back together.
20 years later you tell him the truth.
You're Christian now.

Is that right?


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## Squeakr

sidney2718 said:


> My suspicion is that your husband is still not OK with the ONS. That is HIS problem, not yours. But I suspect that you will get nowhere telling him this. So my suggestion is marriage counseling. Perhaps a neutral third party can talk some sense into him.


So are you assuming that he is in the wrong for this, with the comment about having sense talked into him and it is all his problem??

She initiated the separation (she says it was because of him not wanting to commit, so how does that make it on him?) and therefor to him it may look like she wanted out to just to date the other guy. We don't fully know why he is upset, so how can we say he is in the wrong and it is solely his problem?

I can't believe that lots feel that the fact she lied means nothing since they were not a couple and she lied about something that happened when they weren't together.

Playing the devil's advocate, had the same situation evolved where she was found pregnant after they got back together, would her "hiding" the truth about the use of protection make a difference then? Would all still think she didn't owe him any explanation of what happened since they were separated and he and her should just accept that the child was theirs even though it was possible it could not be his and she knows this (no form of BC is 100% except abstinence)??


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## LacyS

I felt that I was safe from STDs because the other guy was a doctor. He came on strong, took me to my first college football game at a major university. Doted on me, wined and dined, and you know the rest. I was smitten with all the attention after being the pursuer for so long.
My husband did not date during our hiatus. As he pointed out, in his opinion, we were not broken up. He learned of the date on the day it was to take place and raised hell. The next morning, a Sunday, he called to ask how "my date" was the night before. It was then I asked him to ride over and talk. He parked in the driveway and as he was getting out of the car, I came out and told him to get back in the car to talk as my parents were getting ready for church. It was then when I told him. During this conversation, no specifics came up as to safe sex, etc. The jolt of what happened was enough at the time. 

Over the years, there have not been big discussions over this, in fact, when even mentioned, was just a passing comment. It was when we moved to our new city this came up again. For some reason, known only to God, he brought up the specifics of the ONS. He said, "well, at least you were sober enough to use protection." Then I said, "Oh, that wasn't really the case..." He just looked at me and our world changed at that moment. The power of one word: if I had just answered yes.


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## LacyS

NoraJane:

In his words: whatever happened before we met and became a couple does not matter. I cannot judge you for that...
I asked him those questions inadvertently a couple of nights ago, as does he remember every woman he has been with and all the details. He said Yes. And since I met you, there was only one. How do you answer that. I just said, Touche'

So I asked him to tell me about one. I regret that now. Be careful what you ask for. He told me. In exquisite detail.


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## norajane

LacyS said:


> NoraJane:
> 
> In his words: whatever happened before we met and became a couple does not matter. I cannot judge you for that...
> I asked him those questions inadvertently a couple of nights ago, as does he remember every woman he has been with and all the details. He said Yes. And since I met you, there was only one. How do you answer that. I just said, Touche'
> 
> So I asked him to tell me about one. I regret that now. Be careful what you ask for. He told me. In exquisite detail.


And what happened AFTER you were a couple also does not matter. He didn't want to commit to you, so you broke up and you were free to be with anyone else doing anything else you wanted. Moreover, he CHOSE to propose and marry you after knowing about it. It seems churlish to marry you and 20 years later feel the need to make you feel like dirt.

Stop letting him paint you as a villain, and stop accepting his "holier than thou" guilt trips.


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## Yeswecan

LacyS said:


> So my question, to men, is:
> Would the knowledge of another man ejaculating inside your girl/wife be a deal breaker? How important is this to you. I never thought about it, but now it seems to me that he feels that I am soiled. In this situation...the lie that you did use protection...not good at all. You took away something that your H should have or could have based his decision to marry you in the first place. Second, yep, OM dumping inside my W...game over. Something special has been taken from me. Your attitude appears to be stating..."It as just sex."? But, you were broken up at the time so I guess it was fair game. The lie though...not so good.


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## it-guy

As a man, I would have a MAJOR problem over the health risk and the lie. Even if you though it was safe, you didn’t give your husband the opportunity to protect himself from that risk. You selfishly denied him that.

The lie is huge. Simply huge. He is going through D-Day all over again. Glad you are looking to “smooth things out” as you put it. As long as you come out ok right???

Not so much the physical aspect of it would matter to me. Yes physically there would be a little difference, but that would not be my deal breaker vs protected sex. The lie would be the deal breaker.

EDIT *** I will clarify that I understand that you did not cheat. You were broken up. My reference to D-Day still stands though. Same feelings for him Im sure.


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## LacyS

I'm not sure if I was clear about the initial confession that occurred in his car. Yes, I dearly set out to hurt him that morning. No doubt about it. I figured we were through. Period. As mentioned, this was purely revenge sex on all fronts. Although we reconciled and had a very romantic courtship, he told me that at that moment in the car, I, or what was his perception of me, died. He showed me a handmade card that I have given to him on a ski trip just a couple of months prior where I had written, "To My One and Only." He had marked through "and Only." He had the right. 
But back to my central question. I know the twenty year lie has to be rectified. Honestly, I did that because of his supposed concern about STDs. I never thought in a zillion years the other thing would become a major issue. As to the men in this thread... would it be an issue to you?


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## Yeswecan

norajane said:


> And what happened AFTER you were a couple also does not matter. He didn't want to commit to you, so you broke up and you were free to be with anyone else doing anything else you wanted. Moreover, he CHOSE to propose and marry you after knowing about it. It seems churlish to marry you and 20 years later feel the need to make you feel like dirt.
> 
> Stop letting him paint you as a villain, and stop accepting his "holier than thou" guilt trips.


I believe the H did not know about the protection part. This was a lie. Possibly or more than likely a deal breaker for proposing?


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## Yeswecan

murphy5 said:


> you guys were broken up, ended. You were perfectly right to have sex with whomever you wished. It was not cheating.
> 
> And it is a little childish for a man to even ask the details of a ONS that you had when there was no relationship at all. Under these unique conditions, i just would never have told him the truth. It was none of his business.
> 
> If you guys had been going "steady" at the time, then it is a different story...ONS with another guy would have been cheating and implied something about your morals.
> 
> I would say to just tough it out until he gets over it.
> 
> I think this is similar to "the right to remain silent" in USA laws. It is against your rights for the cops to arrest you, ask you "have you ever broken any law", and then try to prosecute you for lying. They do not have a right to ask. Same answer to husband for questions about some other guy 20 years ago when you and him were no longer dating: "you do not have the right to ask"


You have a right not to be lied too concerning protection if asked. Who wants a gift that keeps on giving?


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## norajane

Yeswecan said:


> I believe the H did not know about the protection part. This was a lie. Possibly or more than likely a deal breaker for proposing?


OP has stated that he only just told her details of her H's previous sexual encounters, or one of them anyway. What has he been _hiding _all this time? What hasn't he told her, what did he keep to himself? We don't know, neither does the OP. There may be some things that she doesn't know that would have changed her mind about marrying him if she had known. 

At this point, it is long past time to let this sh*t go! They've been happily married for 20 years. That ought to be a million times more significant to their lives NOW.


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## norajane

LacyS said:


> He showed me a handmade card that I have given to him on a ski trip just a couple of months prior where I had written, "To My One and Only." He had marked through "and Only." He had the right.


And I'd say he was displaying remarkable childishness, like grade-school level. Not to mention the guilt trip he is foisting on you. 

He is your one and only and has been since he proposed and for the last 20 years that you've been a family. He's being mean. He's deliberately trying to make you feel small while he holds himself up as better than you.


----------



## Yeswecan

LacyS said:


> I did not mean to Trickle Truth, honestly didn't know that term until lately. I think what I was thinking was that the act of intimacy in itself spoke to the damages. It took a while for him, after the initial confession, when I revealed the position (me on top) as he felt that I did him more than he did me, since I controlled the pace, etc. You know, you don't think of that stuff as its happening. I tried, at the time, to laugh it off by saying it was partly his fault for being so much "bigger" than the ONS guy; as being on top allows you to control the depth of penetration. Sorry, not trying to sound vulgar here. That didn't work well anyway, as I remember. For the next twenty years he referred to that guy as pencil d*ck.
> Also, the fact it was the first date with the other guy (wine moved it along) when my husband courted me excessively for two months before we were intimate. I can see how that would emasculate him.
> Truthfully, as I explained to hubby, I was angry as hell at the moment, figured we were over (I initiated the famous "I need space" speech). I had pursued him relentlessly for months and he seemed unwilling to commit. Didn't know if he was seeing other people; didn't care. In my heart, it was more or less revenge against love (him) more than attraction to this guy. My hubby today is very attractive, as it seems, to me, men get more attractive with age. The other night, our daughter was in town for a visit, and we went to a Mexican Restaurant for dinner. She mentioned how, to her, it seemed the women in the restaurant noticed him... a lot. He went to the restroom, so I watched as he came back, and it was true. At one point when he walked by the bar to get back to our table, a woman, young and very pretty, turned to watch him walk by and looked at her friend with raised eyebrows. This kind of has me worried. Would he plant his seed, in revenge. I don't think he would,,, but... he's very hurt.
> If I knew then what I know now...


Well, as others have chimed in. What happened after you two broken ties is really no business of his however it was asked and told same. Seems he accepted it. The tid bit about protection that was not truthful is a problem IMO. Apologize. Not much more you can do but continue to be the faithful W you have been for 20 years(for me..this means a lot. The faithfulness.)


----------



## it-guy

norajane said:


> At this point, it is long past time to let this sh*t go! They've been happily married for 20 years. That ought to be a million times more significant to their lives NOW.


I didn’t realize there was a statute of limitations on something so huge. Interesting…..


----------



## Yeswecan

LacyS said:


> Murphy, I see what you're meaning. He has reminded me that I broke it off with him at the "I need more space" speech, but he did not break it off with me. I remember him, then, saying this, but, in my mind, we were apart, or this would have never happened. In my male mind, after a month of not much contact and space...yes...you two were not longer a couple. You and he were free to do as you wish. I would not take any heat from that.
> 
> As someone here has pointed out, this news is new to him, as if it happened very recently. I have empathized if the shoe were on the other foot, would I feel/react the same. Don't know. I've never been cheated on and this is what terrifies me. It appears your H feels cheated on more so for the lie and in his mind, he just need some space. Still dating in his mind. Kind of left you in limbo though did it not? I can not say you really are cheating with the ONS. You were by definition single. H needs to grasp that reality.
> 
> What if he breaks up with me, leaves me, over this and has his on ONS? Believe me, if you see this guy, he would not have a second's problem bedding someone else. So then what? Divorce? What if he does it on the sly and then tells me the details in 20 or so years? Fairplay? He does really look at me differently. I am concerned. Then he is a fool.
> 
> If I talk to him about it, what can I say to make him understand that I didn't mean to Trickle Truth. I have never been unfaithful in marriage. Telling him we were broken up and that he needs to get over it is NOT going to work here. I may as well tell him to go have an affair. I need to smooth this out somehow. I am sorry. It is going to have work here. The broken up portion. That simple. Really, 4 weeks not much contact. No sign of interest and you stand in limbo waiting on him to "decide" ? Not fair. IMO, after 4 weeks I would say it was over. Apologize for the lie. Do your best to work this portion out. As for the other...your H accepted the fact you had a ONS and married you correct? Why the change now?


----------



## Forest

LacyS said:


> So my question, to men, is:
> Would the knowledge of another man ejaculating inside your girl/wife be a deal breaker? How important is this to you. I never thought about it, but now it seems to me that he feels that I am soiled.


You put it just about how I would, soiled, tainted. I don't know what was going on with you and your now hubby at the time, but the feeling I would get was that you went out with a "see what I can do" attitude, and intentionally threw aside everything you and he had together for some sort of personal victory feeling.

You had been in a long term relationship, but were not content, and pushed for more. You pulled the tired, selfish "I need space" routine. Did you try to consider what he needed? Balance the two?

No. You went and found another guy for a ONS. On top of that, no protection, no consideration. More "see what I can do?"

Just my feelings, but pretty disturbing for a husband to confront. He could right now be looking back with contentment, but that's gone.


----------



## tulsy

LacyS said:


> ....My husband did not date during our hiatus. As he pointed out, in his opinion, we were not broken up. He learned of the date on the day it was to take place and raised hell. ...


Why would he think that? 

Were you still seeing your husband the month you asked for space? If so, how often.

Getting upset and asking for space....he obviously didn't think you would go out and have sex with someone else, especially on the first date.

If I was your husband, I would have been pissed, and never would have taken you back. But he did, thinking he had the whole truth. 

I don't think he ever really got over it. 

I think he never really got past your revenge sex, but pushed it under the rug. Now, 20 years later, he finds out you were even dirtier than he thought with this other guy, and he knows that you never got that way with him, because you were able to resist him for months. 

This is the result of his rug-sweeping and your trickle-truthing.


----------



## Yeswecan

norajane said:


> I never would have told the details of the ONS. I would have told him about having the ONS after we had gotten back together (but not before, since there is no reason he needed to know since we were no longer together), but the details are really none of his business, IMO. Details seem to weigh heavily on some men's minds and serve no good purpose. To this I agree whole heartedly. My W asked me when we were dating if I wanted to know anything about previous BF. I only asked the basic. How many guys did you date. Nothing much more. Except for one particular guy. I did ask a bit more. She said they "did some things." I did not want to know anymore. This was really her past. Has nothing to do with me. However, that sentence she spoke still goes through my head sometimes. She asked me and wanted detail. She stopped after the first. From then on, the first day we met is when our true history began. The rest is now muddled gray matter. We live happy in our marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> After 20 years of marriage, I am having a hard time understanding why this ONS keeps coming up in your relationship. Why has he been holding it over your head for 20 years? You broke up and were no longer a couple. Both of you were free to do whatever you wanted with whomever you wanted.
> 
> Why didn't you refuse to talk about it after the first 20 times he brought it up?!! Again, the lie might be playing a large part of the H discontent.


----------



## Yeswecan

Forest said:


> You put it just about how I would, soiled, tainted. I don't know what was going on with you and your now hubby at the time, but the feeling I would get was that you went out with a "see what I can do" attitude, and intentionally threw aside everything you and he had together.
> 
> You had been in a long term relationship, but were not content, and pushed for more. You pulled the tired, selfish "I need space". Did you every consider what he needed?
> 
> No. You went and found another guy for a ONS. On top of that, no protection, no consideration. More "see what I can do?"
> 
> Just my feelings, but pretty disturbing for a husband to confront.


The H accepted, R and married. What gives after 20 years? The ONS? No. The lie about protection and I suspect a trigger to the day the ONS was divulged.


----------



## Yeswecan

tulsy said:


> Why would he think that?
> 
> Were you still seeing your husband the month you asked for space? If so, how often.
> 
> Getting upset and asking for space....he obviously didn't think you would go out and have sex with someone else, especially on the first date.
> 
> If I was your husband, I would have been pissed, and never would have taken you back. But he did, thinking he had the whole truth. There in lies the problem.
> 
> I don't think he ever really got over it. I think he will but he might start questioning other things that have been on his mind.
> 
> I think he never really got past your revenge sex, but pushed it under the rug. Now, 20 years later, he finds out you were even dirtier than he thought with this other guy, and he knows that you never got that way with him, because you were able to resist him for months. This is quite probable.
> 
> This is the result of his rug-sweeping and your trickle-truthing. I would agree. The little lie appears to brought up a bunch of hurt. This is usually the result of living a lie.


----------



## michzz

Ok, have either of you been tested for STDs or had any symptoms of an infection or exposure?

If not, it is time to apologize for the withholding of information and then to focus on how the marriage has been good and can continue to be so.

The lie was 2 decades ago and only about an aspect of the ONS when you were not married and broken up.

If he can't handle that you had another man, then he should not have married you.

I think there is something about the way things are NOW, not then, that is bothering him. But he has decided to shame you about what he already knew about.

I have the impression that if you had told him the other guy ejaculated inside you he would have been hounding you to find out volume, consistency, etc.

Something is wrong with him.


----------



## Yeswecan

michzz said:


> I have the impression that if you had told him the other guy ejaculated inside you he would have been hounding you to find out volume, consistency, etc. I would think he would have walked.


----------



## Yeswecan

The best you can do at this point is apologize for the lie. He either accepts it or moves on. After 20 years of faithful marriage and your H walks...he would be foolish IMO.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Bareback and ejactulating inside is 100 times more intimate than with a condom. The only thing worse would be if you did something with the OM that you refused your husband.


----------



## Q tip

Now, he wonders how he can ever trust anything you say. I would say you've broken his heart and soul. You've taken his heart and crushed it in a way only a true love can. 

To him it just happened yesterday.

Hoping your space was worth it. 

IC and MC. Pray.

NC this "OM" permanently if ever seen. Things will be rough for a long time I fear. Hoping you are so remorseful to him for lying to him. Very remorseful. He may even think you lied to marry him. Who knows.

Sounds like he would never have married you if he knew the truth. He feels you've stolen his life.


----------



## doubletrouble

LacyS said:


> I'm not sure if I was clear about the initial confession that occurred in his car. Yes, I dearly set out to hurt him that morning. No doubt about it. I figured we were through. Period. As mentioned, this was purely revenge sex on all fronts. Although we reconciled and had a very romantic courtship, he told me that at that moment in the car, I, or what was his perception of me, died. He showed me a handmade card that I have given to him on a ski trip just a couple of months prior where I had written, "To My One and Only." He had marked through "and Only." He had the right.
> But back to my central question. I know the twenty year lie has to be rectified. Honestly, I did that because of his supposed concern about STDs. I never thought in a zillion years the other thing would become a major issue.* As to the men in this thread... would it be an issue to you?*


Yes it would.

And holding a lie for that long -- my fWW did that to me. I had to find out her truth by hacking their affair email account. I'm certain she never would've told me she screwed OM. 

Here is is a year and a half since I found out on my own, and I'm still reeling from it. They had sex the last time in Jan 2011, so the "event" has been quite a while. But finding out, then reading emails and seeing all the lies is having a more lasting effect on me. 

And I never asked if they used protection. I'm sure they didn't.


----------



## Squeakr

michzz said:


> Something is wrong with him.


And you know this how? You have heard one side of the story (and I must admit it is one of the few stories I have read on here where the spouse is not vilifying the other and making them the cause and reason for everything wrong in the world, she has owned her part and admitted her true intentions with the ONS and it is a breath of fresh air) and based upon this one side you know there is something wrong with him? Some people are just wired that way that they are detailed oriented and require more information than others and when lied to require the truth and all details surrounding the lie. Nothing wrong with these people. It is just the way they are. I admire (and yes question) people that can just let things slide off their back and not affect them, but I am not one and I would guess he is not either. Give him some time and reassurance and he will come around. A lie that puts one's health at risk and denied them the full truth to make a life changing decision (it might have been a deal breaker for him and he would have never taken her back had he have known the truth. She may have known this and lied to control the situation and insure that they didn't split again, and he now feels he wasn't given the right to make a true informed choice and may have started to question other things that have happened in the M since. Yes it is petty and childish possibly but he feels he was owed that right and it was taken from him), but is not the same thing as lying to your spouse about being out of raisin bran in the morning (as you wanted the last bowl for yourself).


----------



## Yeswecan

And one more thing LacyS,



> We know this from FaceBook.


Why is the OM still in your lives after 20 years???? Dump the FB.


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## Squeakr

doubletrouble said:


> Yes it would.
> 
> And holding a lie for that long -- my fWW did that to me. I had to find out her truth by hacking their affair email account. I'm certain she never would've told me she screwed OM.
> 
> Here is is a year and a half since I found out on my own, and I'm still reeling from it. They had sex the last time in Jan 2011, so the "event" has been quite a while. But finding out, then reading emails and seeing all the lies is having a more lasting effect on me.
> 
> And I never asked if they used protection. I'm sure they didn't.


Same here and she asked about it, was told "I was planning on taking it to my grave!" and another time that "it was nothing, just sex." (Funny how sex means nothing when you are getting it, but I hadn't gotten it from her in months so it meant something to me.)

Pretty cold and uncaring. Was


----------



## Q tip

FB??.?...?. ,!!!!!

Have you been tracking him for this many years? OMG. 

What are you not telling us...?


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## norajane

Q tip said:


> FB??.?...?. ,!!!!!
> 
> Have you been tracking him for this many years? OMG.
> 
> What are you not telling us...?


She said WE know about this from Facebook. Her H could have been the one tracking this guy all this time, and since he's been the one obsessed about it for 20 years, I'd say that's more likely.


----------



## Yeswecan

Q tip said:


> FB??.?...?. ,!!!!!
> 
> Have you been tracking him for this many years? OMG.
> 
> What are you not telling us...?


Having old flames, xGF or xBF on FB is not a good thing IMO. Some say it is ok. I suspect and I can not back it up that much more do not find having their spouses xBF/xGF on FB does not fly. I think it is disrespectful allowing this individual to creep your life via FB. But hey, that is just me.


----------



## Yeswecan

norajane said:


> She said WE know about this from Facebook. Her H could have been the one tracking this guy all this time, and since he's been the one obsessed about it for 20 years, I'd say that's more likely.


Don't know for sure, yet. Either way, this ONS OM should not be on any of their FB friends list. This is reason #342021 not to host old flames on FB.


----------



## Gabriel

Right, and how do you even know that the guy has a business in your city now? Right, Facebook. 

You should remove him from everything. Facebook, contacts, etc. The fact you haven't done that is really mind boggling. Why is this guy even in your consciousness at all, let alone social media? How in the heck are you even talking to him??? End that.

Regarding finishing inside you thing. Yes, it would definitely bother me, but not to the point where I would divorce you over it. But I'd be pissed you lied about it, and I'd be bothered, but since it happened while we were "on a break", I'd feel like I didn't really have the right to do much about it other than to be angry.

In general, please understand, many men find that to be the ultimate in emasculation or betrayal. Allowing another man to do that is the worst. To do that is to give some other guy your complete physical self. There is nothing more you can give a man in that regard. It's total surrender. To your H, it feels like a loss of ownership (for lack of a better word) to his most prized possession. The feeling is hard to describe.

Because he really didn't consider you broken up, he's got a big issue with that as if you were together when it happened. He's going through all those feelings. You have to be extremely humble and subservient right now. Ask him if he needs anything - let him take you sexually, etc. He's going to need that big time.


----------



## tulsy

LacyS said:


> ....My husband did not date during our hiatus. As he pointed out, in his opinion, we were not broken up. He learned of the date on the day it was to take place and raised hell. ....


He thought you guys were still an item. I keep asking and you don't answer:

How often were you still seeing you husband during this month?



LacyS said:


> ... Yes, *I dearly set out to hurt him that morning*. No doubt about it..... this was purely revenge ...


That's horrible.

I think that this "new revelation" is just a reminder of what you did to him all those years ago. I think he rug-swept it, and tried to forget about it, tried to pretend you were once again his sweet girl, and tried to move on from what you did to him...but he never really did. He never really dealt with it. 

Did you blame him, insinuating that if only he would have committed to you, you wouldn't have banged the other guy? I'm just asking, because maybe he HAD felt like he pushed you into it, maybe felt some guilt for not giving what you wanted...but now he feels differently, like you chose to hurt him as much as you possibly could, and he no longer carries guilt for what you did. Either way, the fact that you banged pencil on the first date, without protection doesn't help much.

Were you/had you been using protection with your boyfriend the 2 years prior to the ONS?

I think the realization of what you did, *which is the worst kind of revenge* that I could imagine, is what is hurting him. I think he told himself that you just made a mistake, *but you have assured him that it was no mistake*, and that you were out to hurt him, and you purposely let that other dude drop his seed in you. 

I don't think he ever really thought of you in that way until now. It's only now, 20 years later, that he sees you as capable of doing something like that.

I think you finally got your revenge.


I hope you can work it out, but ya, I think you should get some help. He really needs to open up about this, talk it through with you.


----------



## Gabriel

tulsy said:


> I think the realization of what you did, *which is the worst kind of revenge* that I could imagine, is what is hurting him. I think he told himself that you just made a mistake, *but you have assured him that it was no mistake*, and that you were out to hurt him, and you purposely let that other dude drop his seed in you.
> 
> I don't think he ever really thought of you in that way until now. It's only now, 20 years later, that he sees you as capable of doing something like that.
> 
> I think you finally got your revenge.


This is extremely insightful. Read this several times. I believe this has nailed it.


----------



## TRy

LacyS said:


> Truthfully, as I explained to hubby, I was angry as hell at the moment, figured we were over (I initiated the famous "I need space" speech). I had pursued him relentlessly for months and he seemed unwilling to commit. Didn't know if he was seeing other people; didn't care. In my heart, it was more or less revenge against love (him) more than attraction to this guy.


 You were in a committed relationship that was so deep that you were angry that he was not ready to marry you. Although their was still love between you, you were the one that said that you needed "space", and during this short space that you initiated, you quickly had sex with a guy that he had been warning you was trying to get into your pants. You went on top and you turned down the other man's offer to use protection, so this sex was for you and not just for the other man. I would not be surprised if that from your husband's point of view he suspects that the breakup was a setup by you for you to have sex with the other man; I share this point of view. You lied about using protection, because to admit the truth would confirm even more that the breakup was a setup for sex that you wanted with this other man.

Cheaters in a committed relationship often ask for space and then say that since they were no longer a couple it was not cheating. I suspect that there is more to this story than you are telling us, and that if your husband was posting many would see you as a cheater that used "space" as an excuse to cheat.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

TRy said:


> You were in a committed relationship that was so deep that you were angry that he was not ready to marry you. Although their was still love between you, you were the one that said that you needed "space", and during this short space that you initiated, you quickly had sex with a guy that he had been warning you was trying to get into your pants. You went on top and you turned down the other man's offer to use protection, so this sex was for you and not just for the other man. I would not be surprised if that from your husband's point of view he suspects that the breakup was a setup by you for you to have sex with the other man; I share this point of view. You lied about using protection, because to admit the truth would confirm that even more that the breakup was a setup for sex that you wanted with this other man.
> 
> Cheaters often ask for space and then say that since they were no longer a couple it was not cheating. I suspect that there is more to this story than you are telling us, and that if your husband was posting many would see you as a cheater that used "space" as an excuse to cheat.



I could see where this could be true. I mean she's already shown that she'll lie and trickle truth when it suits her interests.


----------



## Cre8ify

I would chalk it up to youthful immaturity...trying to get back at him by using sex. The whole idea seems perilous with middle-aged hindsight.

I had this happen to me in college--received all the facts, ended it and went dark (except for a couple rounds of breakup sex which she seemed suitable for) and never looked back.


----------



## Forest

Gabriel said:


> Right, and how do you even know that the guy has a business in your city now? Right, Facebook.
> 
> You should remove him from everything. Facebook, contacts, etc. The fact you haven't done that is really mind boggling. Why is this guy even in your consciousness at all, let alone social media? How in the heck are you even talking to him??? End that.
> 
> Regarding finishing inside you thing. Yes, it would definitely bother me, but not to the point where I would divorce you over it. But I'd be pissed you lied about it, and I'd be bothered, but since it happened while we were "on a break", I'd feel like I didn't really have the right to do much about it other than to be angry.
> 
> In general, please understand, many men find that to be the ultimate in emasculation or betrayal. Allowing another man to do that is the worst. To do that is to give some other guy your complete physical self. There is nothing more you can give a man in that regard. It's total surrender. To your H, it feels like a loss of ownership (for lack of a better word) to his most prized possession. The feeling is hard to describe.
> 
> Because he really didn't consider you broken up, he's got a big issue with that as if you were together when it happened. He's going through all those feelings. You have to be extremely humble and subservient right now. Ask him if he needs anything - let him take you sexually, etc. He's going to need that big time.


Good post, it is tough to put into words.

Obviously for him, this is a huge stumbling block, and he may not be able to come right out and say some of these things.


----------



## ThePheonix

norajane said:


> And I'd say he was displaying remarkable childishness, like grade-school level. Not to mention the guilt trip he is foisting on you.


I'm 100% with you on this NJ. I mean what is this guy, like 12 years old. And the alleged "trickle truth". Give me a break. She flat out told him she slept with another guy when they were broken up (not separated like some imply) And what did he do? You guessed it; came back with his hat in his hand and married her. 
Personally, I believe her husband should be ashamed of himself going off and crying because some other guy ejaculated in his then ex girlfriend. Thank gawd he's did marry a girl who had a couple of serious relationship before he came along. He's probably be in the back yard hitting his knees with a hammer.
Here's the thing guys. When you break up with a chick, any expectation that she should reject other guys advances while you take time to decide, is only in your mind. The cat should grow up, put on his big boy clothes and quit acting like a kid who had his toys stolen from him. What a candy azz.


----------



## Hardtohandle

If after 20s years of what he believes is a faithful and happy marriage than I think he just needs to get on with life and not keep reliving some moment 20 years ago. 

I get if you were wh0ring around for 20 years on and off like my ex was.. 

Personally I think YOU should have been smarter than telling him that anyways.. What was your point of being honest ? To be honest ? You already know he gets crazy over this sh!t, why would foolishly add fuel to the fire ?

Future word of advice, next time he brings it up.. Tell him you told him everything and your done talking about it.. 

Ask him straight out why did he marry you if he thinks your such a wh0re and a piece of sh!t.. Was his marriage of 20 years so bad and sh!tty ? 

When he back peddles, because he won't want to call you a wh0re . Just say "Okay then, its the past, let it stay in the past.. 

I told you everything about everything.. I am done with it and so should you.. 

Remind him he is making one oh **** destroy 100s of at a boys ( or at a girls ) you did while you were married to him. 

My current G.F. brings up retarded things from her past that don't make me happy sometimes. There are days I just roll with the punches and tell her that's nice honey now stop telling me that wh0re story.. She gets it and stops.. Then there are times I get hooked and fall into the deep end of the pool..

It is your job to not let him even get near the pool.. I tell the G.F. Straight out, You don't like seeing me get mad, then don't get me mad.. Have some common sense that I am NOT the man to tell these stories too.. If you're looking for that man, there is the door.. 

I don't get this whole I need to be honest about everything.. 

Trust me fvcking LIE.. He won't know, it was 20 years ago.. I doubt this guys is still pinning for you waiting for the day to see you to go into detail about everything you did with him.. Your probably 1 of X amount of women he has had over his life.. 

And if by chance you meet him and he can tell you details, then he is a loser and your lucky it was a ONS..


----------



## arbitrator

*It's not the sex, nor the ejaculation factor, but the lying about it, whether it was intentional or simply by omission.

It greatly reminds me of when my skanky XW was having her covert out-of-town trysts with her two BF's that she had re-established contact with on FB. There she was just a couple to three hours away humping their brains out, then she'd drive right on back home to me and roll my bones, with their "seed" still floating around in her, and with me lustily and lovingly humping away or even worse, doing voracious oral on her, all while being totally oblivious to any of her extracurricular exploits. I found out all about it nearly a year later during our initial separation after some due investigation.

Her's was most intentional and by omission. I was summarily "cut off" when she asked me for the trial separation, all under innocent pretenses. When I finally came to discover the truth, I was literally sick to my stomach for months!

To me, what she did was the absolute nadir of disrespect!*


----------



## Sol

ThePheonix said:


> I'm 100% with you on this NJ. I mean what is this guy, like 12 years old. And the alleged "trickle truth". Give me a break. She flat out told him she slept with another guy when they were broken up (not separated like some imply) And what did he do? You guessed it; came back with his hat in his hand and married her.
> Personally, I believe her husband should be ashamed of himself going off and crying because some other guy ejaculated in his then ex girlfriend. Thank gawd he's did marry a girl who had a couple of serious relationship before he came along. He's probably be in the back yard hitting his knees with a hammer.
> Here's the thing guys. When you break up with a chick, any expectation that she should reject other guys advances while you take time to decide, is only in your mind. The cat should grow up, put on his big boy clothes and quit acting like a kid who had his toys stolen from him. What a candy azz.


Did you read the whole thread?
LacyS... come on now admit you knew either consciously or subconsciously that the protection thing was a potential deal breaker then...why purposely lie about it otherwise?
Why keep the lie for 20 years?
You stole his choice and you thought that now 20 years later you could just come clean now and he would let it slide.

Now you are not special to him...you are comparable to the other women who eye him and try to flirt with him. except you purposely meant to hurt and deceive him.

what you need to ask yourself is "How can you again make yourself his special one and only?"

for example, is there an intimate act you have only ever let him have or could in the future? have children? DNA test them and prove to him that he is the only father of your children. just a thought.


----------



## loyallad

Were you really "broke up" with him then? You say the ONS was to hurt your now husband. Being single and free a person is not out having ONS to hurt former BF.

I think you
know deep down you had the ONS partly for you and partly to hurt your now husband and probably was hoping to get back together using jealousy. Whatever the case just not smart on your part but that was back then. Hopefully you have matured beyond that sort of stuff.

Your husband has a right to be hurt for you lying about it all these years. Does the thought of another man having unprotected sex with you during that time be more hurtful than you having protected sex. In my mind yes. Especially if you gave it up the first time out compared to making your now husband wait two months. The only thing worse would have been swallowing after oral sex.

Your husband needs to get some IC though because he has let this take over too much of him and the relationship between the two of you. It happened and thank goodness before you two were married. He needs to put some sort of closure to this. Does what happened back then make you a bad wife, of course not. You used some bad judgement. Maybe a few sessions of MC might help this as well. I think one thing you may want to consider is how much he cherished you and this thing in the past has sort of tarnished the wife he thought he had. Will your marriage fall apart due to this I hope not. You need to help him get past this and help him get some closure on this. He needs some help, definately from you as well as outside counseling (MC, IC, his pastor).


----------



## Lostinthought61

I will be honest with you...he should be angrier at himself then at you...if what you are saying is that you officially broke up then you are free to see or be with who ever you want to be...and frankly you had ownership in telling him anything you want....if you got back together because you missed each other then great but then that starts the relationship clock all over again...I blame him for not getting off the can and asking you to marry you when he had the chance instead he had doubt or was not ready and you had to move on...tell him to put on his big boy pants and grow up.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

So, I have to ask, as you keep dropping tidbits, did you break up to date this guy?

I ask because your hubby knew of him and you mention he said the guy was only out for one thing. It went from a ONS to him doting and taking you out on dates. 

Now, I think he is being too whiny, but I think you cemented the seriousness of it not being just an ONS.


----------



## Squeakr

Xenote said:


> I will be honest with you...he should be angrier at himself then at you


This might be the case exactly and we don't know either way for sure. He is mad at himself and trying to deal with it. She heard him crying and he is upset. He might be taking it out on her as he has no other way of dealing with it correctly. Too many assumptions, judgements, and vilifying of him when we don't know his half.

She needs to also put on her big girl pants and own her part in this, that lots on here seem to think she had nothing involved with it. If she hadn't had the revenge lay then we wouldn't be commenting here on this.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: A Question For Men...*



Squeakr said:


> This might be the case exactly and we don't know either way for sure. He is mad at himself and trying to deal with it. She heard him crying and he is upset. He might be taking it out on her as he has no other way of dealing with it correctly. Too many assumptions, judgements, and vilifying of him when we don't know his half.
> 
> She needs to also put on her big girl pants and own her part in this, that lots on here seem to think she had nothing involved with it. If she hadn't had the revenge lay then we wouldn't be commenting here on this.


Funny now that a RA is now her biggest fear.


----------



## Squeakr

farsidejunky said:


> Funny now that a RA is now her biggest fear.


But isn't that the case with most infidelities and where trust is lost cases, the one whom did the act first is now afraid that they will have to experience the same thing and fear the consequences?


----------



## soccermom2three

I think your husband needs therapy.


----------



## michzz

michzz said:


> Something is wrong with him.





Squeakr said:


> And you know this how? You have heard one side of the story (and I must admit it is one of the few stories I have read on here where the spouse is not vilifying the other and making them the cause and reason for everything wrong in the world, she has owned her part and admitted her true intentions with the ONS and it is a breath of fresh air) and based upon this one side you know there is something wrong with him? Some people are just wired that way that they are detailed oriented and require more information than others and when lied to require the truth and all details surrounding the lie. Nothing wrong with these people. It is just the way they are. I admire (and yes question) people that can just let things slide off their back and not affect them, but I am not one and I would guess he is not either. Give him some time and reassurance and he will come around. A lie that puts one's health at risk and denied them the full truth to make a life changing decision (it might have been a deal breaker for him and he would have never taken her back had he have known the truth. She may have known this and lied to control the situation and insure that they didn't split again, and he now feels he wasn't given the right to make a true informed choice and may have started to question other things that have happened in the M since. Yes it is petty and childish possibly but he feels he was owed that right and it was taken from him), but is not the same thing as lying to your spouse about being out of raisin bran in the morning (as you wanted the last bowl for yourself).


I know this because it was 20 years ago and he knew she had sex BEFORE he popped the question.

A presumably good marriage during that period of time. during which, he periodically tried to get more details of that encounter -- obsessively.

I stand by my assessment.

Look, I've been cheated on and much more horribly than a ONS. I get not liking your woman straying.

But they were broken up.

Different ball game.


----------



## Dyokemm

" I was angry as hell at the moment, figured we were over (I initiated the famous "I need space" speech)"

You say in YOUR mind, you were over....you say you told him you needed space.

Did you ever tell HIM it was over?

I take it, especially since you have admitted the revenge/wanting to hurt him aspect, and the fact he didn't see the relationship as over, that you did not.

As far as he is concerned, you cheated in the relationship and he decided to forgive you and move on....undoubtedly at least partially based on the belief that you had confessed all there was about the ONS.

Now he finds out you have lied to him about an important (to him at least) part of the A.

I'm sure he is feeling like a huge idiot for ever reconciling with you right now.

It does not matter that IN YOUR MIND, you were done...you never expressed that to him, only that you 'needed space'.

In HIS MIND, he probably sees this as a case of him FORGIVING your A, which was done specifically to hurt him by your own admission, due to the fact he loved you and believed you were remorseful and had confessed all.

Now this belief is shattered due to your TT'ing.

Whatever you do Lacy....DO NOT tell him to get over it cause it happened so long ago and is a relatively small detail.

If you do that, I think you will risk losing your M altogether.

You have to be sympathetic and understanding and help him to heal at his own pace.

If you have never done so before, I would also suggest that you fully admit that you did indeed betray him and sincerely apologize and make amends for it.

The story that you were broken up 'in your mind', even if you had not told your BH this, is a justification you have told yourself all these years to excuse what you did to him.

In reality, you asked for space (it is a VERY common tactic WSs use in many threads here) and then used that space to deliberately cheat with the express goal of hurting him.

Owning that and apologizing to your BH can only help your M to reconcile,


----------



## 2ntnuf

loyallad said:


> Were you really "broke up" with him then? You say the ONS was to hurt your now husband. Being single and free a person is not out having ONS to hurt former BF.
> 
> I think you
> know deep down you had the ONS partly for you and partly to hurt your now husband and probably was hoping to get back together using jealousy. Whatever the case just not smart on your part but that was back then. Hopefully you have matured beyond that sort of stuff.
> 
> Your husband has a right to be hurt for you lying about it all these years. Does the thought of another man having unprotected sex with you during that time be more hurtful than you having protected sex. In my mind yes. Especially if you gave it up the first time out compared to making your now husband wait two months. The only thing worse would have been swallowing after oral sex.
> 
> Your husband needs to get some IC though because he has let this take over too much of him and the relationship between the two of you. It happened and thank goodness before you two were married. He needs to put some sort of closure to this. Does what happened back then make you a bad wife, of course not. You used some bad judgement. Maybe a few sessions of MC might help this as well. I think one thing you may want to consider is how much he cherished you and this thing in the past has sort of tarnished the wife he thought he had. Will your marriage fall apart due to this I hope not. You need to help him get past this and help him get some closure on this. He needs some help, definately from you as well as outside counseling (MC, IC, his pastor).


And also, what crossed my mind was, and I know you two were not married, you knew this ONS, right? How much and for how long were you talking to him? I doubt he was really simply a ONS. The only part that may make that true is it happened once and it was at night. 

Listen, he's hurting, and off the deep end. He needs help and you likely need to get some help to understand what is going on with him and how you two can work together once again. I like the thought about what can you do to make yourself special to him once again. I don't think there is anything, but maybe I'm wrong. 

It's his fantasy that you were special, so there might be something there to talk about. Not that you are not. I'm just reminded of the MWCplx or syndrome. I don't think he has it. He just really had an ideal of you that was never true. I guess we all do about our husband or wife, to some extent. 

Sorry you are going through this. It's got to be confusing and love-busting.


----------



## Chaparral

LacyS said:


> I'm not sure if I was clear about the initial confession that occurred in his car. Yes, I dearly set out to hurt him that morning. No doubt about it. I figured we were through. Period. As mentioned, this was purely revenge sex on all fronts. Although we reconciled and had a very romantic courtship, he told me that at that moment in the car, I, or what was his perception of me, died. He showed me a handmade card that I have given to him on a ski trip just a couple of months prior where I had written, "To My One and Only." He had marked through "and Only." He had the right.
> But back to my central question. I know the twenty year lie has to be rectified. Honestly, I did that because of his supposed concern about STDs. I never thought in a zillion years the other thing would become a major issue. As to the men in this thread... would it be an issue to you?


No because a gentleman would not ask. He is obsessed and either needs to get over it or find a counselor to talk to.

If he wanted it he should have put a ring on it. He needs to grow some [email protected] and man up. As a matter of fact he has tried to make you feel like a sl*t. 

If it were me I would never again respond to any question about my past. I would not ask him about his past either.

Play him the song that goes, "If you don't know me by now, you will never know....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTcu7MCtuTs This is my favorite version, here's another https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbaSh8i5eyE


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Not sure why this is in the infidelity section, there is no infidelity as far as I can see.

You guys were broken up. You were free to have relations with whoever you want, protected, unprotected or otherwise.

He had no business asking you the details; if he was concerned himself, he could have used protection himself, or suggested going to a clinic to be tested together. Here's a guy who marked his territory and then got upset after the fact when another male marked the same territory.

Now, like I said he had no business asking the details. But he did. And you answered. You could have said that's none of your business. Instead you fibbed. I can see why he is upset now. But frankly it's been 20 years, clearly u didn't have an unwanted pregnancy or an STD. So he needs to grow a pair and get over himself. I suggest therapy for him if this is really an issue.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

WorkingOnMe said:


> Bareback and ejactulating inside is 100 times more intimate than with a condom. The only thing worse would be if you did something with the OM that you refused your husband.


This has got to be one of the most bizarre ideas I have ever heard.


----------



## Dyokemm

"You guys were broken up. You were free to have relations with whoever you want, protected, unprotected or otherwise."

PhillyGuy,

According to her own posts, Lacy says she thought it was done 'in her own mind'....but what she had told him was she 'needed space'.

Hence, as she admits, her BH has NEVER viewed this as a relationship that happened while they were broke up....it is something she admits she deliberately did to hurt him in revenge cause she felt the relationship wasn't moving along fast enough.

Others may disagree, but I view any situation where one partner says they want space to think/consider things, BUT does not say the relationship is over, to be cheating if they engage in sex with other people.

Think of Dadof2's thread....his WW started her bullsh*t with the same 'I need space' speech.

Based on what Lacy has said herself, this was not a ONS while they were broken up/separated in any way except in her own thoughts.

Her BH has always viewed it as having happened while they were still together, as she admits.

But now he has found out that his choice to forgive and move on has been based in part on her TT'ing about details,

I think if Lacy follows all the 'tell him to get over it or get counseling, you were broke up' advice she has been getting here, she is at serious risk of further damaging her M or even losing it.

IMO, if the details of the ONS and their 'split' are those I have gleaned based on what she has posted, she should do even more.

It is nothing but a justification for cheating to say 'in my mind we were through' when all that has been said to the BS is 'I need space'.

This is a justification we see a lot in the threads here on TAM, and this is the first time I have seen the majority of posters accepting it and allowing the WS to pass it off as reality.


----------



## Chaparral

Squeakr said:


> Same here and she asked about it, was told "I was planning on taking it to my grave!" and another time that "it was nothing, just sex." (Funny how sex means nothing when you are getting it, but I hadn't gotten it from her in months so it meant something to me.)
> 
> Pretty cold and uncaring. Was


Good lord people *THERE WAS NO INFIDELITY HERE*

Why was this even put in the infidelity section?


----------



## Forest

As she stated, this was clearly revenge. 

So if you are part of the anti-revenge crowd, do you support her, or her husband?

These bad, irresponsible decisions can bedevil a relationship.

Why is it in the infidelity section? Probably because the OP put it her, and feels it WAS infidelity. She seems to be the only one that she let on on the secret that they were "broken up". He felt they were together, it seems.


----------



## staarz21

Sorry, but he wouldn't commit. You broke it off. This is exactly what many preach here. If you aren't getting what you want out of the relationship, and your partner isn't willing to try...leave. Right?

Why is this so wrong? She left. After breaking it off - whether he believed her or not is his issue - she had sex with someone else. 

She did the right thing by leaving him first. 

She even took it a step further (even if it was for revenge) and told him about the ONS (not AFFAIR). He shouldn't have asked for details. She shouldn't have given them. Period. It was none of his business. 

He thought he could keep her forever the way things were, she wasn't happy. She went and made herself happy after breaking up with him. 

The issue I do see here is lying about the condom. If you two were getting back together - that is one piece of information that is kind of important for STDs. This would solely be for him to decide to get back together with you knowing there was a chance of STD. You both could have been tested and then it should have been dropped. 

20 years ago? Seriously?


----------



## staarz21

Forest said:


> As she stated, this was clearly revenge.
> 
> So if you are part of the anti-revenge crowd, do you support her, or her husband?
> 
> These bad, irresponsible decisions can bedevil a relationship.
> 
> Why is it in the infidelity section? Probably because the OP put it her, and feels it WAS infidelity. *She seems to be the only one that she let on on the secret that they were "broken up". He felt they were together, it seems.*


Yet he KNEW she was on a date. He even called and asked how it went.....hmmm sounds like he knew they were broken up to me. Either that, or was ok with her dating other people in front of him.


----------



## Dyokemm

Chap,

I always respect your opinions and posts.

But I have to disagree based on what Lacy posted.

Saying 'I need space' does not equal 'Our relationship is over', no matter what Lacy felt or believed in her own mind.

The facts remain: she had NOT told her BH the relationship was over, a fact corroborated by the fact that her BH has NEVER viewed the incident this way, by Lacy's own admission.


----------



## michzz

staarz21 said:


> The issue I do see here is lying about the condom. If you two were getting back together - *that is one piece of information that is kind of important for STDs*. This would solely be for him to decide to get back together with you knowing there was a chance of STD. *You both could have been tested and then it should have been dropped.*
> 
> 20 years ago? Seriously?


I agree!


----------



## EleGirl

LacyS said:


> He has reminded me that I broke it off with him at the "I need more space" speech, but *he did not break it off with me.* I remember him, then, saying this, but, in my mind, we were apart, or this would have never happened. In


I find this disturbing. You broke off with him. But he thinks that you breaking up with him did not count because he did not break up with you???? Really????

This is just a huge disregard of your right to make your own decisions. According to that comment, only his decisions count.

Your husband has apparently been using your ONS (not cheating) as away to berate you emotionally move for 20 years. 

Just like you bought into his nonsense that you were not really broken up because he did not break up with you, you have brought into his picking on your for this all these years.

But a long time ago you decided to play along with his little game of let's beat up LacyS. Since you were on birth control you did use one sort of protection. So why is it that suddenly you decided to tell him barrier protection? 

20 years of being a good and faithful wife should count for a lot.. a lot more than on ONS 20+ years ago. How has your relationship been in the last year or two? Has he been pulling away from you?


----------



## TRy

ThePheonix said:


> When you break up with a chick, any expectation that she should reject other guys advances while you take time to decide, is only in your mind.


 Your whole post is based on the false assumption that her husband had broke up with her when she had the ONS, when that was not the case. In fact not only did he not break up with her, but when she asked for "space" she did not make it clear to him that this meant that they were not a couple. I quote the OP below to show you what I mean.



LacyS said:


> Truthfully, as I explained to hubby, I was angry as hell at the moment, figured we were over (I initiated the famous "I need space" speech).





LacyS said:


> My husband did not date during our hiatus. As he pointed out, in his opinion, we were not broken up.


 Her stating by giving him the "famous "I need space" speech" she "figured we were over", confirms that she never actually made clear to him that they were broken up. This is standard cheater script stuff, where they ask for space without telling the other person in the committed relationship that this means that they are broken up, and that they are doing this because they plan to have sex with a particular other person. As I said in another post on this thread "Cheaters in a committed relationship often ask for space and then say that since they were no longer a couple it was not cheating. I suspect that there is more to this story than you are telling us, and that if your husband was posting many would see you as a cheater that used "space" as an excuse to cheat."


----------



## Dyokemm

"Yet he KNEW she was on a date"

Lacy said he found out on the day of the date itself AND was very piss*d off about it.

And she did not defend herself with this explanation when she called him over the next day and confessed about what happened...in fact she admits she deliberately set out that morning to tell him in order to hurt him.

This tells me he was totally in the dark about the 'fact' they were 'split up'....this was a view Lacy has fallen back on in the years since to justify what she did to her bf/now H.

Even she admits the relationship being over was just something in her own mind....it is obviously NOT something that had been openly discussed between them.

She has just been using this justification to defend what she did to him....pure rewrite/blameshifting. 

Sounds like her BH decided to let these actions be rugswept when he decided to reconcile with Lacy.

Now the fact that she was also TT'ing about the cheating has resurrected the entire mess..


----------



## staarz21

I wasn't aware a break up had to be a full out length conversation when you're just dating someone. A simple I need space, I need to be away from you, I am breaking up, I am done....typically does it. 

It shouldn't have to be discussed at length. They weren't married. 

I mean she did tell him she needed space right? I could be missing that whole part.


----------



## Chaparral

Forest said:


> As she stated, this was clearly revenge.
> 
> So if you are part of the anti-revenge crowd, do you support her, or her husband?
> 
> These bad, irresponsible decisions can bedevil a relationship.
> 
> Why is it in the infidelity section? Probably because the OP put it her, and feels it WAS infidelity. She seems to be the only one that she let on on the secret that they were "broken up". He felt they were together, it seems.


Did she or did she not say they had been broken up for a month? I believe she also said he had never agreed to be in an exclusive relationship with her before they "broke up."


----------



## Dyokemm

I still can't understand why so many posters keep saying she was 'broke up'.

By Lacy's own admission, all she had told him was she needed space AND she has said several times they were broke up 'in her mind'.

Sorry, but this is not something new to threads here on TAM....the cheater asks for space and has decided the M/relationship was over in their own head, WHILE NOT INFORMING THE BS OF THIS FEELING/THOUGHT.

Most posters never accept this excuse in other threads.

Why is it being unchallenged here?

Staarz,

I see your point, but I still see a world of difference between 'I need space' and 'We are done'.

I still think this is justification because she knows they were not officially over and doesn't want to face the guilt of her betrayal.


----------



## staarz21

I guess because they weren't married...and she told him she needed space...for like a month. That's a long time to not be broken up with someone, but not be together with them.

I guess I could see it if she said she needed space and then went to the OMs house THAT night as cheating, but it was a month later.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

Ok I guess I'm confused. She said they were broken up a month, and had a ONS. Did I misinterpret that?

Still, he knows she went on a date- raised hell with her that day. He wasn't ready to commit, they break up. He finds out she is on a date and is suddenly ready to commit.

Do they get back together. She admits she slept with the other guy when questioned. Lies about the safe/unsafe part. 

So were we broken up or not??
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Chaparral

Dyokemm said:


> I still can't understand why so many posters keep saying she was 'broke up'.
> 
> By Lacy's own admission, all she had told him was she needed space AND she has said several times they were broke up 'in her mind'.
> 
> Sorry, but this is not something new to threads here on TAM....the cheater asks for space and has decided the M/relationship was over in their own head, WHILE NOT INFORMING THE BS OF THIS FEELING/THOUGHT.
> 
> Most posters never accept this excuse in other threads.
> 
> Why is it being unchallenged here?


*Over 20 years ago, my boyfriend, now husband, and I were broken up for about a month due to his refusal to commit to our relationship of over two years. I began going out with a guy who would come by from time to time at my work (Pharmacy) and the relationship culminated with a ONS. I began to realize how big of a mistake this was and as fate goes, my BF and I got back together and eventually were married ten months later.

The night after the ONS, I called my then BF to come over, at which time I confessed the entire thing about being intimate with another man the night before. After smashing his fist against the windshield (we were sitting in his car in my parent's driveway) he just looked hurt - like he deflated. He had warned me the other guy was just out to get into my pants, etc. I more or less got out of the car quickly as I was afraid the loss of temper would return.
*

The first line of her post says they were broken up.


----------



## happyman64

Lacy

I think Chap is right. Your H needs to speak with a counselor to get this straight in his head.

You got your revenge on your H 20 years ago. And again when you admitted the sex was unprotected.

Most men want their women to be their "one and only". If not a virgin then he wants his wife to be "his". The only receiver of his "seed". That makes up for you not being a virgin for him.

Yes some guys actually think like that. I know I did when I was younger.

So urge him to get a 3rd party to talk to.

Also communicate with him. Reassure him. And remind him in any way you can that he is the "one".

HM


----------



## Dyokemm

Lacy,

Regardless of what you think of the debate that has broken out here about the circumstances of your ONS, if you want to save and repair your M, DO NOT take the attitude of 'get over it' or 'get counseling'.

From how you described your BH's behavior and attitude CURRENTLY, if you do this you will be risking your M.


----------



## Chaparral

This line has also been misinterpreted by the folks that want to skewer her

*Truthfully, as I explained to hubby, I was angry as hell at the moment, figured we were over (I initiated the famous "I need space" speech). I had pursued him relentlessly for months and he seemed unwilling to commit. Didn't know if he was seeing other people; didn't care. In my heart, it was more or less revenge against love (him) more than attraction to this guy.*


----------



## TRy

staarz21 said:


> I wasn't aware a break up had to be a full out length conversation when you're just dating someone. A simple I need space, I need to be away from you, I am breaking up, I am done....typically does it.
> 
> It shouldn't have to be discussed at length. They weren't married.
> 
> I mean she did tell him she needed space right? I could be missing that whole part.


 When she is pressing him to get married (which they soon did), they were more than just dating. They were in a committed relationship, and in a committed relationship you need to make such things clear.


----------



## ThePheonix

Chaparral said:


> Did she or did she not say they had been broken up for a month? I believe she also said he had never agreed to be in an exclusive relationship with her before they "broke up."


That's exactly what she said Chappy. 

_"were broken up for about a month due to* his refusal to commit* to our relationship of over two years. I began going out with a guy who would come by from time to time at my work (Pharmacy) and the relationship culminated with a ONS. I began to realize how big of a mistake this was and as fate goes, my BF and I got back together and eventually were married ten months later._

Furthermore, that "refusal to commit" door swings both ways. His refusal to commit to the relationship clearly indicates he was not serious about the relationship and could easily be viewed as using her as a "no strings" plaything. Accordingly, she had no responsibility to be true to him and had every right to see anybody she pleased without feeling any guilt. Neither does she have any responsibility to tell him anything. This old boy just let his attitude and his mouth overload his azz.


----------



## Squeakr

Chaparral said:


> Squeakr said:
> 
> 
> 
> Same here and she asked about it, was told "I was planning on taking it to my grave!" and another time that "it was nothing, just sex." (Funny how sex means nothing when you are getting it, but I hadn't gotten it from her in months so it meant something to me.)
> 
> Pretty cold and uncaring. Was
> 
> 
> 
> Good lord people *THERE WAS NO INFIDELITY HERE*
> 
> Why was this even put in the infidelity section?
Click to expand...

Since you singled out my post (which was responding to the quoted posters response about the infidelity in his M with this question, I am now responding to your statement. 
We don't know if there was an infidelity or not. By her own admission she states "she needed space" and in her mind they were broken up yet were still talking and interacting with other and he didn't think they were apart so only her side counts in this decision?? Funny how that works when she is the one that did the destructive action. 

Glad I got that figured out so I can now say unequivocally that my M was not affected or broken by my WW's infidelity like I have thought it was, as WW told others that "she wanted out and needed space" and "in her mind the M was over and not salvageable so it was over". Too bad she never said anything to me or told me otherwise but according to people here that doesn't matter as she had moved on and felt she needed space that is all that counts. Good to know as now I can move on with closure in my life knowing I wasn't cheated on. Heck why even have an infidelity section as the majority of the cheaters on here have all given the "we were on a break" and "I needed space" speech prior to their actions.

He is dealing as best he can with he new information and all people can say is get over it. Not much compassion here. In fact we have no idea how their M has been but everyone "assumes" it was great. After I found out, I can say that I found out the truth and my many years were only happy at the time and in hindsight nothing more than settling and a sham and maybe that is how he feels. Maybe he deserves some consideration the same we are giving her (he never stated she said they were through, just that she needed some space (which to those without infidelity affecting their lives view differently and lots of times as just a cooling period).


----------



## TRy

Chaparral said:


> The first line of her post says they were broken up.


 She trickled truthed us in the first post, as she later admitted that her husband was not aware that they were broken up for that month.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Chaparral said:


> This line has also been misinterpreted by the folks that want to skewer her
> 
> *Truthfully, as I explained to hubby, I was angry as hell at the moment, figured we were over (I initiated the famous "I need space" speech). I had pursued him relentlessly for months and he seemed unwilling to commit. Didn't know if he was seeing other people; didn't care. In my heart, it was more or less revenge against love (him) more than attraction to this guy.*


No it hasn't, everyone isn't reading it the same as you. Oh and I don't think she did anything wrong.


----------



## thatbpguy

LacyS said:


> So my question, to men, is:
> Would the knowledge of another man ejaculating inside your girl/wife be a deal breaker? How important is this to you. I never thought about it, but now it seems to me that he feels that I am soiled.


If this occurred at a time when the two of you were not dating, it should be a non issue. I mean, to be sure the ONS was pretty stupid, but you were not connected to your now husband. 

I think he needs to man up on this one.


----------



## Squeakr

michzz said:


> michzz said:
> 
> 
> 
> Something is wrong with him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Squeakr said:
> 
> 
> 
> And you know this how? You have heard one side of the story (and I must admit it is one of the few stories I have read on here where the spouse is not vilifying the other and making them the cause and reason for everything wrong in the world, she has owned her part and admitted her true intentions with the ONS and it is a breath of fresh air) and based upon this one side you know there is something wrong with him? Some people are just wired that way that they are detailed oriented and require more information than others and when lied to require the truth and all details surrounding the lie. Nothing wrong with these people. It is just the way they are. I admire (and yes question) people that can just let things slide off their back and not affect them, but I am not one and I would guess he is not either. Give him some time and reassurance and he will come around. A lie that puts one's health at risk and denied them the full truth to make a life changing decision (it might have been a deal breaker for him and he would have never taken her back had he have known the truth. She may have known this and lied to control the situation and insure that they didn't split again, and he now feels he wasn't given the right to make a true informed choice and may have started to question other things that have happened in the M since. Yes it is petty and childish possibly but he feels he was owed that right and it was taken from him), but is not the same thing as lying to your spouse about being out of raisin bran in the morning (as you wanted the last bowl for yourself).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I know this because it was 20 years ago and he knew she had sex BEFORE he popped the question.
> 
> A presumably good marriage during that period of time. during which, he periodically tried to get more details of that encounter -- obsessively.
> 
> I stand by my assessment.
> 
> Look, I've been cheated on and much more horribly than a ONS. I get not liking your woman straying.
> 
> But they were broken up.
> 
> Different ball game.
Click to expand...

It's an assessment and nothing more than that. You only know what she is reporting and nothing more than anyone else unless you know him and her personally. Most of us in here have been cheated on and worse but than this, but that doesn't give us some special insight into what he is thinking or feeling as we are all wired differently. Just like what details one needs are not the same that others need for closure. I don't see him obsessing over this but obviously he questions the truth he is being told and has for 20 years. How do we not know that her guilt is making her portray it as he has obsessed over it all this time. He may have asked several times over the years and her incessant denial and lying about certain facts is causing her to view it differently. Why is no one suggesting that she has issues and problems as she had a revenge A and instead of feeling guilty felt the need to throw it in his face (and may have been doing so the last 20 years but few are questioning her motives and actions. 

It was even brought up about dadof2's post and how his WW did the same thing, yet over there she is the villain. Why the difference? wiild everyone have believed her and dadof2 been the villain had she have come here and said basically the same thing lacy has???


----------



## staarz21

TRy said:


> When she is pressing him to get married (which they soon did), they were more than just dating. They were in a committed relationship, and in a committed relationship you need to make such things clear.


A committed relationship that he really didn't want to commit to, it seems.  Sorry. I had to. 

But seriously. If he didn't want marriage and she did, why is what she did so wrong? I'm seriously confused.

Obviously other than the lying.... that was way wrong.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Can't figure out why he didn't just stay out of the picture. None of this would have happened. What made him come back? Why did he patch up the relationship? What was so bad that you split? What was so good that you took him back? None of this makes sense.


----------



## Dyokemm

"The first line of her post says they were broken up."

Chap,

Yes...she did say that in her first line of her OP.

Then in later posts come the qualifications:

She told him she needed space.

The relationship was done IN HER MIND

Lacy does not specify what exactly 'space' meant in their situation, but one can only assume there was still contact and communication going on if her BH was never aware of the 'split' at all.

MY read on this, based on all Lacy's posts, is she was pursuing a relationship with her now H very hard, but was frustrated that he would not commit fast enough for her liking.

She complained about this and said she needed space to think about where the relationship was headed because she was tired of being the only one trying.

For a month, they continued to communicate, and probably occasionally spend time together, while she worked on her feelings.

She was still angry, and decided to get revenge on her partner by allowing this POS who had been pursuing her to finally reach the promised land....but her true goal was to hurt her now H and try to knock him off the fence by demonstrating that she could easily get other guys if he wouldn't commit...by her own admission, while she liked the attention she was NOT interested romantically in POS...this was a pure act aimed at hurting her H.

Her BH became aware of the date on the day it was going down somehow, and immediately got angry.

She went through with it anyway and then the next day went out to the car with the expressed purpose of throwing it in his face to hurt him...which IMO is actually another sign that the relationship was not over even in her mind...you do not deliberately set out to hurt an 'ex' like this if you truly are over and done with them.

The fact that she did, even undermines the claim it was 'over' in her own mind, much less his.


----------



## staarz21

ThePheonix said:


> That's exactly what she said Chappy.
> 
> _"were broken up for about a month due to* his refusal to commit* to our relationship of over two years. I began going out with a guy who would come by from time to time at my work (Pharmacy) and the relationship culminated with a ONS. I began to realize how big of a mistake this was and as fate goes, my BF and I got back together and eventually were married ten months later._
> 
> Furthermore, that "refusal to commit" door swings both ways. His refusal to commit to the relationship clearly indicates he was not serious about the relationship and could easily be viewed as using her as a "no strings" plaything. Accordingly, she had no responsibility to be true to him and had every right to see anybody she pleased without feeling any guilt. Neither does she have any responsibility to tell him anything. This old boy just let his attitude and his mouth overload his azz.




I agree. They weren't engaged, they weren't married. Apparently they were having issues with him committing. I guess that's why I am puzzled.


----------



## bandit.45

He could be going through manopause. 

Working out, getting buff, acting all emotional, giving you the 1000 stare.. 

Yeah, you better be worried ....


Sorry of that doesn't help but he sounds like he's ready to go hunting. His inner caveman is emerging. If he's thinking of some payback you better steel yourself. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

staarz21 said:


> A committed relationship that he really didn't want to commit to, it seems.  Sorry. I had to.


 It only works if we agree on the definition of "committed relationship." I know we are all assuming she wanted to be married and he didn't. We honestly do not know.



> But seriously. If he didn't want marriage and she did, why is what she did so wrong? I'm seriously confused.


You are confused because committed means marriage to you. To me, possibly others, it means exclusivity with designs of marriage or just monogamous loyalty.


----------



## TRy

Squeakr said:


> Heck why even have an infidelity section as the majority of the cheaters on here have all given the "we were on a break" and "I needed space" speech prior to their actions.


 I am equally surprised as you by how some people that I usually agree with have been taken in by the trickle truth cheaters logic that the OP has been giving us. Heck she even admits that her husband was not aware that when she told him that she needed space that this meant that in her mind they were broken up, as she was doing this to pressure him into speed up getting him to marry her. From the husband's point of view, he learns of the breakup hours before her date, objects to her seeing the other man since he was not aware that they were not a couple, and the next morning when he goes to talk to her about their situation, finds out that she slept with another man that he had warned her was trying to get into her pants. 

Heck they had been dating for years prior, and got married less than a year later when this all happened. They may not have been married yet , but the husband was more than some guy that she was dating. She wanted to have sex with this other guy, and used the vague declaration that she wanted space as and excuse to set this up.


----------



## staarz21

Dyokemm said:


> "
> 
> 
> 
> For a month, they continued to communicate, and probably occasionally spend time together, while she worked on her feelings.
> 
> She was still angry, and decided to get revenge on her partner by allowing this POS who had been pursuing her to finally reach the promised land....but her true goal was to hurt her now H and try to knock him off the fence by demonstrating that she could easily get other guys if he wouldn't commit.


For a month they communicated and occasionally spent time together - doesn't mean they were dating. 

Yes, she wanted revenge, but I bet mostly, she wanted to show him that she could get someone else and move on...and so she did. 

It woke him up didn't it?

Isn't this how the dating thing works? You date someone (and they dated 2 years) she was ready to move to the next step, he wasn't. She gets mad because obviously, she loves him but he doesn't want to commit. 

She tell him she needs space to consider what is going on.

She has a ONS to show him that she can move easily. He decides that's crap and married her. 

How was this supposed to work? They take space...she does nothing...he does nothing...they sit and don't do anything...

She already did that for 2 years with him. Maybe she wanted to move quickly and he didn't but regardless she knew what she wanted, he didn't want it. 

That's not a committed relationship. They didn't want the same things and she said she needed space from that.


----------



## ironman

Lacy,

To answer your original question .... I would say YES, it would make a difference (to me anyway). It's a guy thing .. no self-respecting man wants to envision his wife's sexual exploits with another man ... and unfortunately you just added a fresh new "vision" for him (regardless of when it took place). Too late to correct that now.

Some are trying to convince you to take a firmer stance against your husband. I think that's a mistake and that they're just egging you on and that doing so would simply invite more conflict into your already troubled marriage.

I think a better approach is to simply be patient and be the best wife you can be for him. Help him forget. Give him lots of BJs .. hell, give him BJs when he's not even asking for it. If that doesn't do it for him ... do w/e his favorite sexual act is ... and do it frequently. He may soon forget he was ever mad at you. If none of that works, as a last resort ... then go to counseling. A third party might help his perspective.

My 2 cents. Good luck.


----------



## Squeakr

phillybeffandswiss said:


> staarz21 said:
> 
> 
> 
> A committed relationship that he really didn't want to commit to, it seems.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry. I had to.
> 
> 
> 
> It only works if we agree on the definition of "committed relationship." I know we are all assuming she wanted to be married and he didn't. We honestly do not know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But seriously. If he didn't want marriage and she did, why is what she did so wrong? I'm seriously confused.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are confused because committed means marriage to you. To me, possibly others, it means exclusivity with designs of marriage or just monogamous loyalty.
Click to expand...

Thank you as I was thinking the exact same thing. Committed doesn't always mean engaged to be married or leading up to married. For some committed means a monogomous relationship between the two, where they date and are with each other exclusively, and in his mind he maybe thought he and she were committed but obviously she didn't think so as she didn't have a ring to prove it. I had the same thing with my WW when we were dating she wanted "commitment" and I told her I was "committed" to her just not ready to marry. I dated no one else nor cheated yet I found out recently that she didn't remain as faithful and thought seeing and having sex with others was no big deal as we weren't "committed". I can tell you after 20 years together that revelation still hurts as she was not whom I thought she was and I bet he thinks the same. The time frame that has passed makes no difference when such bombs that could be deal breakers are dropped.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

@dyokemm

Why is the guy a POS? What exactly did he do wrong?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

staarz21 said:


> A committed relationship that he really didn't want to commit to, it seems.  Sorry. I had to.
> 
> But seriously. If he didn't want marriage and she did, why is what she did so wrong? I'm seriously confused.


 If "committed relationship" confuses you, how about saying that he thought that they were in a 2 year "exclusive relationship" when she banged another man.


----------



## bandit.45

Whether it was cheating or not is a question we probably won't come to a consensus on. 

Personally, I think what OP did was pretty sh!tty. But that's beside the point.. 

Right now we have a good looking, buff, pissed off husband who, in my opinion, is thinking about going and spreading his seed in some young nubiles for some revenge. What we need to be doing is giving OP advice on how to set some boundaries with him...so that if he does seek revenge sex, she will be able to react accordingly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## staarz21

TRy said:


> If "committed relationship" confuses you, how about saying that he thought that they were in a 2 year "exclusive relationship" when she banged another man.


Well, that would make sense...if she had not told him she wanted space. That's the part I don't get. She told him she wanted space. 

I guess the lesson I've learned today is that you must be verrrry specific on when you want to put your relationship on hold. I just thought that everyone assumed I need space is...relationship temporarily - possibly pending further review - over.


----------



## staarz21

bandit.45 said:


> Whether it was cheating or not is a question we probably won't come to a consensus on.
> 
> Personally, I think what OP did was pretty sh!tty. But that's beside the point..
> 
> Right now we have a good looking, buff, pissed off husband who, in my opinion, is thinking about going and spreading his seed in some young nubiles for some revenge. What we need to be doing is giving OP advice on how to set some boundaries with him...so that if he does seek revenge sex, she will be able to react accordingly.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah I agree we won't agree on whether or not it was cheating.

Can we talk about the fact that he's been holding it over her head for 20 years? I get the recent lie of no condom...in fact, that was completely wrong!!! 

But prior to that, he had been bringing the ONS up for 20 years. That's a long time considering there was no infidelity in the marriage (after the ONS and they got married).


----------



## Q tip

norajane said:


> She said WE know about this from Facebook. Her H could have been the one tracking this guy all this time, and since he's been the one obsessed about it for 20 years, I'd say that's more likely.


Mind reader? Both of them breathlessly watching his career? I think not. Just her plan B, or is that plan A - for all we know.


----------



## bandit.45

staarz21 said:


> Well, that would make sense...if she had not told him she wanted space. That's the part I don't get. She told him she wanted space.
> 
> I guess the lesson I've learned today is that you must be verrrry specific on when you want to put your relationship on hold. I just thought that everyone assumed I need space is...relationship temporarily - possibly pending further review - over.


A guy should never assume anything with a woman, because we are expected to be mind readers. Last time I checked I lack pointy ears.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## bandit.45

staarz21 said:


> Yeah I agree we won't agree on whether or not it was cheating.
> 
> Can we talk about the fact that he's been holding it over her head for 20 years? I get the recent lie of no condom...in fact, that was completely wrong!!!
> 
> But prior to that, he had been bringing the ONS up for 20 years. That's a long time considering there was no infidelity in the marriage (after the ONS and they got married).


Yeah....even worse: He's an obsessed, pissed off, handsome, buff husband going through a MLC.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Forest

Chaparral said:


> This has got to be one of the most bizarre ideas I have ever heard.


Makes perfect sense to me. He was chuggin' along, be a good guy, then she decides she wants to poke him in the eye. She goes out and screws another guy just to make him jealous (by her own admission)

To cap the deal, she lets the designated boy toy blow a load in her during the height of the "safe sex" movement, just to add some extra insult. Pure vindictive truculence.

Alas, she's either not real, or lost her nerve.

She probably didn't much care until she crossed 40, and now he's the one that looks better to the opposite sex, not her.

She got to have her fun, screw around, and get Mr. Steady back. Now she's the one that's worried.

Sounds like equilibrium in the crappy world of infidelity. Many happen returns, Lacy.


----------



## Dyokemm

I think OP has been vague and even somewhat deceptive about what the exact nature of the 'break up' or 'space' or whatever you want to call it was for a reason.

If they were not truly over with, she knows what she did was not only wrong but also deliberately and intentionally hurtful towards her now H.

For 20 years she has sold her BH the justification for her actions that they were over IN HER MIND.

She admits he has never agreed with this....he would certainly not be the first BS that reconciled by allowing blameshifting and relationship rewrites to lead to rugsweeping an A.

My sense is she wants to tell her BH to forget about the TT'ing about protection because it was 20 years ago and has probably repeated her justifications that she felt they were over, etc, all over again.

But she is here because she is now scared and does not want to really lose her M. 

She is scared because her BH does not seem to be buying the bullsh*t anymore and she is sensing he is not looking at her the same anymore.

She wants a way to easily and quickly put this A back into the box they have swept it into for the duration of their M.

Based on how she described her BH TODAY, I think if she takes the advice of some of us here that she should tell him to get over it and get counseling, she is going to find her worst fears come true and he will file on her.

No matter how we may disagree about the circumstances of the ONS and whether it is truly cheating, everyone needs to wake up to the fact that Lacy's M is in SERIOUS jeopardy right now.

She is asking for help from us to save it, and I think advising her to tell him to see a therapist and get over it already is not going to help her with saving her M.


----------



## Q tip

Sol said:


> Did you read the whole thread?
> LacyS... come on now admit you knew either consciously or subconsciously that the protection thing was a potential deal breaker then...why purposely lie about it otherwise?
> Why keep the lie for 20 years?
> You stole his choice and you thought that now 20 years later you could just come clean now and he would let it slide.
> 
> Now you are not special to him...you are comparable to the other women who eye him and try to flirt with him. except you purposely meant to hurt and deceive him.
> 
> what you need to ask yourself is "How can you again make yourself his special one and only?"
> 
> for example, is there an intimate act you have only ever let him have or could in the future? have children? DNA test them and prove to him that he is the only father of your children. just a thought.


She admitted to revenge. No raincoat meant something to her. Wonder if she maintained some kind of contact with this totally innocent ONS. Something just does not feel right here. And FB. A new dimension. Is she now TT TAM?


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I dated a girl in college who told me she needed some time to think things through. 

It's been 22 years apparently she is still in deep thought.

I just reread OP post start to finish and I still aren't sure what happened.

However they arrived at the way things are today they need counseling. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

staarz21 said:


> Well, that would make sense...if she had not told him she wanted space. That's the part I don't get. She told him she wanted space.


 She admitted that whatever she told him, she did not make it clear to him that they were broken up during that month, and that he did not have a clue during that month about them being broken up. After 2 years of being in an exclusive relationships, where you had an expectation of marriage that did in fact happen less than a year later, space does not mean that you will be banging other men. To the husband, all it meant was that she was mad at him as they worked things out.


----------



## Q tip

Q tip said:


> She admitted to revenge. No raincoat meant something to her. Wonder if she maintained some kind of contact with this totally innocent ONS. Something just does not feel right here. And FB. A new dimension. Is she now TT TAM?





Chaparral said:


> Good lord people *THERE WAS NO INFIDELITY HERE*
> 
> Why was this even put in the infidelity section?


She admitted revenge on him for non-commitment on her terms. 

Perhaps she broke up with him to taste the OM. Threw him back and went for bachelor #1


----------



## PhillyGuy13

I have to wonder since hubby was noncommittal for two years, when she wanted commitment, she thought maybe she would make him jealous by seeing another man. He does get jealous, comes running back and a year later they are married.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Dyokemm

Staarz,

I disagree with your last points.

And, I can tell you that if my partner tried to 'wake' me up to the fact that she wanted our relationship (which I still believed was ongoing even if we were having issues) to become serious at a faster rate because it suited what SHE wanted at the time, by having a ONS and then deliberately throwing it in my face the next day....well that partner would be permanently and irrevocably kicked out of my life, with a few choice observations about what a deceptive, worthless woman she truly is to go with the dumping.


----------



## TRy

Dyokemm said:


> And, I can tell you that if my partner tried to 'wake' me up to the fact that she wanted our relationship (which I still believed was ongoing even if we were having issues) to become serious at a faster rate because it suited what SHE wanted at the time, by having a ONS and then deliberately throwing it in my face the next day....well that partner would be permanently and irrevocably kicked out of my life, with a few choice observations about what a deceptive, worthless woman she truly is to go with the dumping.


 Everyone says that until it is the person that they are in love with that cheats on them. In theory I agree with you, but when it is your life, it stops being a theory.


----------



## staarz21

Dyokemm said:


> Staarz,
> 
> I disagree with your last points.
> 
> And, I can tell you that if my partner tried to 'wake' me up to the fact that she wanted our relationship (which I still believed was ongoing even if we were having issues) to become serious at a faster rate because it suited what SHE wanted at the time, by having a ONS and then deliberately throwing it in my face the next day....well that partner would be permanently and irrevocably kicked out of my life, with a few choice observations about what a deceptive, worthless woman she truly is to go with the dumping.


And I totally believe that is what HE should have done. So, I completely agree.


----------



## Q tip

PhillyGuy13 said:


> I dated a girl in college who told me she needed some time to think things through.
> 
> It's been 22 years apparently she is still in deep thought.
> 
> I just reread OP post start to finish and I still aren't sure what happened.
> 
> However they arrived at the way things are today they need counseling.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


If she's still in deep thought, her response will be 42. Your question was wrong. Lol


----------



## Q tip

I really feel her H should read through the thread and provide input. I think he needs to be heard.


----------



## Dyokemm

Staarz,

And I see your point about BH bringing the ONS up at times over the past 20 years...but I do see an explanation.

The A was rugswept....based on her rewrites of the 'break' and how 'in her mind' it was over.

There are plenty of posters here on TAM who have admitted to rugsweeping their WS's A years in the past but were also faced with the consequence that the A never seemed to ever go away as a problem or issue for the M....it would lie dormant for awhile but always found a way back to the surface when the couple had problems.

It is a story all too familiar on TAM unfortunately.


----------



## LacyS

Sorry, I've been away for a bit, grocery store night. I'll try to answer some of your questions for clarification. But first, thanks for the advice.
In terms of being broken up, the truth is that when I told him that I needed my space, it was to open the door for the other guy who was beginning to show interest in me and I became interested in him. I have to be honest here, it wasn't a severe all ties breakup. My boyfriend/hubby was calling every day or every other day, but by this time, I was being mean to him. Doing the 180, as y'all say. Perhaps that made him more interested. Looking back now, my BF/Hubby was coming on so strong, it made me resentful. It made the OM more interesting. Could BF/Hubby have dated other people with my approval. I don't know. My mind had suddenly gone elsewhere. The ONS guy and I had one more lunch date the following week and, really, there was no chemistry. As much as I wanted there to be. None.
By this time, BF/Hubby had started to disappear from the scene. He wasn't calling anymore. I eventually called him early on a Saturday morning and we began to iron things out.
The reason, as already stated, that I told him that a condom was used was because of being afraid he would think about STDs. I never, I mean NEVER thought the other would hurt him to this point.

------- this below is from another poster, it helps me understand what I'm dealing with----------------------
"In general, please understand, many men find that to be the ultimate in emasculation or betrayal. Allowing another man to do that is the worst. To do that is to give some other guy your complete physical self. There is nothing more you can give a man in that regard. It's total surrender. To your H, it feels like a loss of ownership (for lack of a better word) to his most prized possession. The feeling is hard to describe." End Quote.


----------



## Bobby5000

Hey, they were broken up, she apologized and I think he is a little unreasonable.


----------



## Dyokemm

"Everyone says that until it is the person that they are in love with that cheats on them. In theory I agree with you, but when it is your life, it stops being a theory."

Try,

I see your point and agree.

Unfortunately, I have had to actually live this situation (though the details differ) with my LTgf.

We were beginning to make plans for our M when she cheated....I kicked her to the curb instantly.

And when she came back 8 months later begging for another chance, I told her to pound sand.


----------



## Q tip

LacyS said:


> Sorry, I've been away for a bit, grocery store night. I'll try to answer some of your questions for clarification. But first, thanks for the advice.
> In terms of being broken up, the truth is that when I told him that I needed my space, it was to open the door for the other guy who was beginning to show interest in me and I became interested in him. I have to be honest here, it wasn't a severe all ties breakup. My boyfriend/hubby was calling every day or every other day, but by this time, I was being mean to him. Doing the 180, as y'all say. Perhaps that made him more interested. Looking back now, my BF/Hubby was coming on so strong, it made me resentful. It made the OM more interesting. Could BF/Hubby have dated other people with my approval. I don't know. My mind had suddenly gone elsewhere. The ONS guy and I had one more lunch date the following week and, really, there was no chemistry. As much as I wanted there to be. None.
> By this time, BF/Hubby had started to disappear from the scene. He wasn't calling anymore. I eventually called him early on a Saturday morning and we began to iron things out.
> The reason, as already stated, that I told him that a condom was used was because of being afraid he would think about STDs. I never, I mean NEVER thought the other would hurt him to this point.
> 
> ------- this below is from another poster, it helps me understand what I'm dealing with----------------------
> "In general, please understand, many men find that to be the ultimate in emasculation or betrayal. Allowing another man to do that is the worst. To do that is to give some other guy your complete physical self. There is nothing more you can give a man in that regard. It's total surrender. To your H, it feels like a loss of ownership (for lack of a better word) to his most prized possession. The feeling is hard to describe." End Quote.


Total admission now. Informal break up to taste OM. Threw him back and went with bachelor #1. 

Lady, you got balls. Not much else. Any luck contacting OM on FB all these years? To even know his whereabouts is stunning...


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## Q tip

Using a condom would not hurt him, so you lied. Hope you read all the posts and start understanding the depths of HIS pain in all of this.


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## PhillyGuy13

Well, this is a horse of a different color.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dyokemm

"Hey, they were broken up, she apologized and I think he is a little unreasonable."

Bobby,

Read what Lacy just posted....she just admitted it WAS NOT a hard break up....just a request for space.

Lacy,

Based on what you just posted about the breakup....I think you need to face the fact that you did not think it was over with your BH.

You were using him as a Plan B....even allowing him to pursue you harder in the month before the ONS.

This 'break' was specifically so you could cheat on your now H and see if POS would be a better choice.....but in no way were you letting go of your BH just in case.

If you have never admitted this truth to your BH before, I think it is time for honesty now.

Your M is hanging by a thread after this TT'ing came out.

Total honesty is the only chance you have, and not just about details like condoms.

He needs to know what you truly did if he has never heard that admission from you before.

If you have let him believe for 20 years that it was all because 'you thought it was over in your mind', you need to start owning up to what really went down.

Only being totally remorseful and honest with your BH do you have a chance of fixing this.

I think your BH is DONE with rugsweeping this anymore.

I know it seems scary, but it is the best way for you to show your BH you are fighting for him and the M now.


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## LacyS

Q Tip, I guess I deserve that shot. In my mind, I was thinking the new guy might work out. He was young, never married, un-attached. New in town. But a little afraid to - I was so in love with BF/Hubby and had chased him for so long. It was, as Hubby puts it, an exclusive relationship until I got tired of waiting to get really serious. 
We learned about the OM on FB quite accidentally when befriending one of Hubby's old classmates that is a Pharmacist here in the city where we recently moved. the OM is on his Friends List. Makes sense, since the OM works in the medical field.

From what I am getting from the advice, the best way to head this off is to attempt to explain the lie. I am sorry, I never thought it would matter this much to him. Really, the night I told him the 100% truth, I was kind of laughing about it, he was too, until that news dropped. My god, his face went white.
He hadn't hounded me for 20 years about it as some have thought. It was barely brought up, not discussed much at all. We were busy raising our two daughters. Hubby recently retired, got back into working out and keeps a mean house. Sh--, I wish this had never happened.


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## Q tip

At least she has admitted to TAM what's up. Her H is in so much pain, and she does not see it. She thinkshe's been giving her some level of sh!t for 20 years. I think he has been showing her his PAIN and she has not dealt with it any where near properly. 

OP, he loves you. Stop his pain. Read through TAM on how to work with you BH. I don't have the link, but you will gain understanding and the empathy to help you both put something 20 years ago behind you. 

Someone, copy that working with BS information.

It does apply, at least in her H mind.


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## soccermom2three

staarz21 said:


> Well, that would make sense...if she had not told him she wanted space. That's the part I don't get. She told him she wanted space.
> 
> I guess the lesson I've learned today is that you must be verrrry specific on when you want to put your relationship on hold. I just thought that everyone assumed I need space is...relationship temporarily - possibly pending further review - over.


I guess if you break up with a boyfriend you now need a document acknowledging the fact signed and notarized by both parties.


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## Q tip

LacyS said:


> Q Tip, I guess I deserve that shot. In my mind, I was thinking the new guy might work out. He was young, never married, un-attached. New in town. But a little afraid to - I was so in love with BF/Hubby and had chased him for so long. It was, as Hubby puts it, an exclusive relationship until I got tired of waiting to get really serious.
> We learned about the OM on FB quite accidentally when befriending one of Hubby's old classmates that is a Pharmacist here in the city where we recently moved. the OM is on his Friends List. Makes sense, since the OM works in the medical field.
> 
> From what I am getting from the advice, the best way to head this off is to attempt to explain the lie. I am sorry, I never thought it would matter this much to him. Really, the night I told him the 100% truth, I was kind of laughing about it, he was too, until that news dropped. My god, his face went white.
> He hadn't hounded me for 20 years about it as some have thought. It was barely brought up, not discussed much at all. We were busy raising our two daughters. Hubby recently retired, got back into working out and keeps a mean house. Sh--, I wish this had never happened.


Understood. We all here support you. Take the good and use it. Ignore what does not apply.

You asked for a guys view. Mine have been honest.

Take that man of yours and cherish him. He grieves.


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## LacyS

By the way, I am trying to go back and read the post made while I was out getting groceries, so some replies will seem disjointed. I am in NO WAY in touch with the OM now. Haven't seen him or spoke to him in all this time. The FB thing was about one of Hubby's friends and when he saw it, he commented that, wow, Old Pencil D-ck is on FB. We looked (Stalked) his profile together. I would never befriend this guy. My god, could you imagine if I did. It would be the big D, and I don't mean Dallas.


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## TRy

LacyS said:


> In terms of being broken up, the truth is that when I told him that I needed my space, it was to open the door for the other guy who was beginning to show interest in me and I became interested in him. I have to be honest here, it wasn't a severe all ties breakup.


 Thank you for your honesty here. This confirms what I have been saying in earlier posts that your request for space was a setup to allow you to see this another man. Coupled with the fact that you admitted earlier that for the month leading up to the ONS that your husband was not aware that space meant that you were broken up and dating, indicates that he feels that you cheated on him. From his point of view, you used the love that he had for you against him to allow you to rug sweep this cheating. The best chance of saving your marriage long term is to admit that you manipulated the situation back then and to acknowledged that what you did was wrong and was cheating. You have never done this which is why this is still festering with him.

When in an exclusive relationship, if space means that you can have sex with others, then when a young hot other woman interests your husband, he can tell you that he wants space, moves out for a month, bang this other woman, move back in as if nothing happened, and then tells you that if you make a big deal of it he has this other woman ready to take your place. Would you be OK with that? Would you feel resentful that not only that he did that, but that he had no remorse about it? That is in effect what you did to your husband. Time to acknowledge this and to let the real healing begin.


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## EleGirl

Yea I guess telling him that you're done, need space because after 2 years he won't committee.. and telling him that you are dating someone else is not enough to clearly tell some guy that the relationship is over.

:scratchhead:


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## LacyS

He does grieve and because of my mistake of not being totally honest. I cannot think of one time in our marriage where I had to second guess him. He is as solid as a rock - literally and figuratively.
He is a real man. And, dog gone it, he is my man. six feet two with eyes of blue (what I call him sometimes).
He just came in from his evening workout and jumped in the shower. Maybe I can wash his... back for him. I'm trying and I'm gonna fight for him. And us.


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## phillybeffandswiss

Props to you for owning up and telling us the truth. Go get some counseling. He's been dealing with this rugsweep for 20 years and it's going to stay ugly until it is dealt with.


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## courseplotter

I think the core issue is that your husband took you back after you pushed him away in order to bang some other dude. Now he regrets doing it and he's having to ask himself why he didn't ignore the dealbreaker when he had the chance.

Most likely and because he loved you a lot, he compromised with himself and justified his decision to take you back by saying to himself said "I can deal with it as long as he didn't cum in her".

Plus, he's had this (I assume) solid marriage with you even though that ONS was a really big deal to him. Even though it always bothered the s*** out of him, he pushed the feelings down until you gave him that detail.

Again, this is one of those times when he should have just dumped you back when you confessed you did that guy.


edit: incomplete thought, fixed.


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## TRy

TRy said:


> Thank you for your honesty here. This confirms what I have been saying in earlier posts that your request for space was a setup to allow you to see this another man. Coupled with the fact that you admitted earlier that for the month leading up to the ONS that your husband was not aware that space meant that you were broken up and dating, indicates that he feels that you cheated on him. From his point of view, you used the love that he had for you against him to allow you to rug sweep this cheating. The best chance of saving your marriage long term is to admit that you manipulated the situation back then and to acknowledged that what you did was wrong and was cheating. You have never done this which is why this is still festering with him.
> 
> When in an exclusive relationship, if "space" means that you can have sex with others, then when a young hot other woman interests your husband, he can tell you that he wants space, moves out for a month, bang this other woman, move back in as if nothing happened, and then tells your that if you make a big deal of it he has this other woman ready to take your place. Would you be OK with that? Would you feel resentful that not only that he did that, but that he had not remorse about it? That is in effect what you did to your husband. Time to acknowledge this and to let the real healing begin.


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## phillybeffandswiss

How did you tell him? Yes, I'm curious because if you said it like my ex-fiance I'll understand why he thought differently.


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## Q tip

EleGirl said:


> Yea I guess telling him that you're done, need space because after 2 years he won't committee.. and telling him that you are dating someone else is not enough to clearly tell some guy that the relationship is over.
> 
> :scratchhead:


That's the sensitive nature of her story. We're only human, it takes a committee to really make a mess of things...


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## Dyokemm

Lacy,

It is not impossible to save your M....but you have to get the ENTIRE truth about the whole 'space' and ONS out there....whatever your BH does not know about, whether details like the condom or what your true state of mind really was, you need to be totally honest.

To show you why, lets look at your 'in my mind it was over' excuse that you have given your BH.

If you have never admitted to him that the true motivation doe the whole 'space' thing was to cheat with POS while keeping your BH as a Plan B, then it is very likely that your BH has spent 20 years blaming himself for making you feel so bad you thought it was over and his behavior pushed you into a ONS that he is essentially to blame for.

But the truth is, you wanted to get with POS....it had nothing to do with him...heck, he was trying HARDER during the 'space' time and you said it just made you angrier.

He deserves to know from your mouth that this was not his fault.....that it was 100% your choice and was deliberately done for your own selfish reasons.

Lacy, I know such honesty must sound scary and impossible, but I think it is going to be the only chance to save your M with your BH.


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## LacyS

EleGirl, I didn't tell him that we were over and that I was done. The thing I said was that I thought I need some space to figure the situation out, to figure me/us out. In my mind, I guess I was looking at it from both ways. The he should know where this might go way and we are taking a break but with monogamous undertones. I knew then that I was taking a chance with this but was at the point of risking losing him as I was in total limbo.
During one of the times Hubby and I were discussing this, he told me that he felt blindsided as my actions went from zero to one-hundred in, seemingly, a second. He found out about the date by calling me up to make plans for that day and I told him I had other plans. At first he played it cool, but eventually got me to reveal what I was going to do.


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## warlock07

LacyS said:


> Sorry, I've been away for a bit, grocery store night. I'll try to answer some of your questions for clarification. But first, thanks for the advice.
> In terms of being broken up, the truth is that when I told him that I needed my space, it was to open the door for the other guy who was beginning to show interest in me and I became interested in him. I have to be honest here, it wasn't a severe all ties breakup. My boyfriend/hubby was calling every day or every other day, but by this time, I was being mean to him. Doing the 180, as y'all say. Perhaps that made him more interested. Looking back now, my BF/Hubby was coming on so strong, it made me resentful. It made the OM more interesting. Could BF/Hubby have dated other people with my approval. I don't know. My mind had suddenly gone elsewhere. The ONS guy and I had one more lunch date the following week and, really, there was no chemistry. As much as I wanted there to be. None.
> By this time, BF/Hubby had started to disappear from the scene. He wasn't calling anymore. I eventually called him early on a Saturday morning and we began to iron things out.
> The reason, as already stated, that I told him that a condom was used was because of being afraid he would think about STDs. I never, I mean NEVER thought the other would hurt him to this point.
> 
> ------- this below is from another poster, it helps me understand what I'm dealing with----------------------
> "In general, please understand, many men find that to be the ultimate in emasculation or betrayal. Allowing another man to do that is the worst. To do that is to give some other guy your complete physical self. There is nothing more you can give a man in that regard. It's total surrender. To your H, it feels like a loss of ownership (for lack of a better word) to his most prized possession. The feeling is hard to describe." End Quote.


The theme in general seems to be if someone pursues you, you are not interested/attracted to them. If someone ignores you, you are attracted to them. Right from your teenage years to even now.


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## Q tip

LacyS said:


> He does grieve and because of my mistake of not being totally honest. I cannot think of one time in our marriage where I had to second guess him. He is as solid as a rock - literally and figuratively.
> He is a real man. And, dog gone it, he is my man. six feet two with eyes of blue (what I call him sometimes).
> He just came in from his evening workout and jumped in the shower. Maybe I can wash his... back for him. I'm trying and I'm gonna fight for him. And us.


Get off the friggin internet and get on him!


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## TRy

EleGirl said:


> Yea I guess telling him that you're done, need space because after 2 years he won't committee.. and telling him that you are dating someone else is not enough to clearly tell some guy that the relationship is over.


 Ele, she has admitted that whatever she told him, that during the entire month leading up to the ONS, he was not aware that they were broken up and that she was dating this other guy until the night of the ONS, and that when she told him that she was seeing the other guy that night, he was surprised and protested telling her that he thought that they were still exclusive. She has also admitted that the "space" was a ploy to allow her to explore a possible relationship with this guy that just came into town. Since she asked for space to specially explore a relationship with this other man, she should not have kept that a secret from her husband for an entire month until the night of the ONS as she clearly mislead him to keep him on the hook.


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## Squeakr

Thanks for the clarifications. At least we now have a better picture and I hope some of the posters that have been villa mixing your h will one ask and read so they can see it hasn't been 20 years of holding this over your head and you actually admit you were in an exclusive relationship and used the "need some space" line exactly like several WS on here have used it. It would have been nice to have this information from the start, probably the same way your H feels it would have been nice to have the protection truth from the start. 

Your M definitely needs both of you to address the issues within and of nothing else you take away from this I hope you read through the different posts and see that hiding the truth does nothing but create more issue in the end. Honesty is the best policy fr here on out. Even if you think it is nothing and a fact of little significance, it can be the world to someone else. 

(I believe lots of the assumptions, advice, and conclusions posted within this thread would be different had the full facts been there from the start as it was not just a basic relationship going no where, as many assumed, but rather an exclusive LTR with a yet definitively agreed upon immediate future.)


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## GusPolinski

LacyS said:


> So my question, to men, is:
> *Would the knowledge of another man ejaculating inside your girl/wife be a deal breaker?* How important is this to you. I never thought about it, but now it seems to me that he feels that I am soiled.


Jumping in kind of late w/ this, but I'll participate...

For many of us (including myself), yes. This _can_, however, be mitigated to some degree if children are involved.

Here's the thing... if you'd told him the truth all those years ago, he may very well have broken up w/ you. Based on that, he likely feels that everything that the two of you have built together over the course of the past 20 or so years has been based upon a lie.


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## Squeakr

EleGirl said:


> Yea I guess telling him that you're done, need space because after 2 years he won't committee.. and telling him that you are dating someone else is not enough to clearly tell some guy that the relationship is over.


She never said they were done just that she "needed space" and that "in her mind they were done" she admits she never told him that just the need space line.


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## Q tip

warlock07 said:


> The theme in general seems to be if someone pursues you, you are not interested/attracted to them. If someone ignores you, you are attracted to them. Right from your teenage years to even now.


Yah, but damn, if it was only a date with no action. The next moves brought on the issues.


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## TRy

LacyS said:


> EleGirl, I didn't tell him that we were over and that I was done. The thing I said was that I thought I need some space to figure the situation out, to figure me/us out.


 Again, thank you for the truth. When in an exclusive relationship, when you ask for space to figure "us out" that is not the same as saying that the exclusive relationship was over and done.


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## LacyS

He is being very sweet tonight. I basically offered to shower with him, but he was nearly finished. Brought me some chocolate milk (my night favorite) and asked if I was staying up as he was tired and ready to sack out. I'm going offline now to massage some of those tense muscles - starting with that six pack. Oh, listen to me!!
I will check new posts in the morning. Thanks everybody. Tonight, I feel safe. He just walked by wearing only a towel and carrying his bible as he likes to read a bit before lights out. Only in America.


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## Q tip

If Lacy does this right, it will be a new beginning and honeymoon II for them. A newer and happier couple then they ever were.


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## Dyokemm

Elegirl,

Have you read Lacy's recent posts?

She has admitted that this was not a hard break up. just a request for space.

She has admitted she did this for the sole purpose of cheating with POS while keeping her now BH as a Plan B....daily contacting and communicating with him.

She never declared they were done....she never announced she would be seeing other guys.

They were supposed to be working on things and she admits he was actually trying harder that 30 days.

He found out about the date with POS on the day it happened and confronted....she still went through with it.

One week later, she realizes POS is not what she wants....BH is now pulling away and not contacting her....so she reaches out to reel him back in as her future partner.

Your last post made her BH sound like a user a**hole who attempted to control her after they had openly broken up.

Now what in all of these facts Lacy has admitted herself matches with the picture you painted of BH?

I generally like your posts Ele, and consider you a very valuable contributor here....but I think you are way off on your read in this situation.


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## Sol

I stick by my earlier read.

Lacy is no longer special, and is now in competition to keep her husband.

I suspect he may start shopping around, even if just window shopping. Be aware there is a competition going on.


I don't condone it, but at least that's more warning then Lacy gave him.


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## Forest

LacyS said:


> He is being very sweet tonight. I basically offered to shower with him, but he was nearly finished. Brought me some chocolate milk (my night favorite) and asked if I was staying up as he was tired and ready to sack out. I'm going offline now to massage some of those tense muscles - starting with that six pack. Oh, listen to me!!
> I will check new posts in the morning. Thanks everybody. Tonight, I feel safe. He just walked by wearing only a towel and carrying his bible as he likes to read a bit before lights out. Only in America.


If you're on the level with all this, I'll just say that I hope you understand why your husband is in pain, and that he can be happy.


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## warlock07

She was just projecting some insecurity onto her husband and the posters here are bashing him for it. Some are rooting for him to cheat.


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## staarz21

Well, I'm going to say that I was totally wrong. She did TT us. 

Would have been nice to have that information up front. 

So, since she needed space with her monogamous undertones as she put it - and he understood it that way as did she, then yes. What she did was cheating...sort of. More cheating than not? I don't know. 

You either break up with someone or you don't. You don't separate from a boyfriend and stay monogamous with him. 

I broke up with him...wait no I didn't...Well, he thought we didn't...well, maybe I never did. Seriously? 

Then she said he brought up the ONS over 20 years leading us to believe it happened constantly, which of course now she says isn't the case. In fact, according to her, it's only happened a couple of times in 20 years. 

So, I'm out of this thread. I just wanted to come on here and say I was wrong, because I never mind admitting that. According to her and her recent post saying that monogamy was agreed upon during their separation - what she did was cheating. 

Honestly, hopefully he can work through it. I don't have any advice on what you can do, other than not lie to him anymore. Seriously. Stop the TT. It's annoying to those of us who've had spouses do it to us. I'm sure your H feels the same. 

I hope it works out.


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## FalconKing

Lacy, thank you for your clarification. This happened to a buddy of mine. His girlfriend broke up with him to sleep with another guy and thought she could go back to him of things didn't work out. He stood up to her and didn't take her back. But that was probably because she had done that to him once before. 

It doesn't sound like he has been hounding you about it but from your initial post it did come across that way. This tells me that you didn't really see it as a big deal that you calculated this to have unprotected sex with some dude. And it sounds like you weren't really that into him. You just wanted to fvck him. You are just now understanding the magnitude of this and that's kind of disturbing...

I also cringed reading the post of all the people who wanted to use your story to validate their position that their spouse doesn't need to know anything about what they are doing if they are not together:slap:.


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## Graywolf2

I seem to be very late to the postings. You seem to be doing quite well and may not need anything more from here.

OP, your description of how your husband makes you feel, his touch and other women looking at him was great. You need to incorporate that in a note that focuses on how much you love him and the future.

Let me answer your original question of how men feel. I’m older so my view may be dated. I understand that you two had broken up and that you informed your husband before you were married. I’m not going to be logical, fair or publically correct.

Men put the woman they marry on a pedestal. It’s kind of self-serving since they paid full price to get in their pants. They would feel like a fool if they paid full price and another man had a coupon. 

You husband took two months to get in your pants. He wanted to keep getting in your pants without paying with commitment but you wouldn’t allow it. You demanded a higher price and cut him off when he refused to pay it. When he found out that you were going on a date he strongly protested. This was his way of telling you that he still cared for you. 

You could have treated the OM like your future husband and make him wait two months to get in your pants. You could have just kissed. Instead you immediately gave him for free what you were demanding a commitment for from your husband. Is the OM some rock star compared to your husband? 

Your husband obsessed on this in his mind until it almost burned itself out. He thought about every detail and tried to minimize them. Your husband would like to think that you were seduced and taken advantage of but you were on top. He got used to the idea that you used a condom. At least there was something you reserved for him. Now that’s gone.


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## sidney2718

Squeakr said:


> So are you assuming that he is in the wrong for this, with the comment about having sense talked into him and it is all his problem??


Yes.



> She initiated the separation (she says it was because of him not wanting to commit, so how does that make it on him?) and therefor to him it may look like she wanted out to just to date the other guy. We don't fully know why he is upset, so how can we say he is in the wrong and it is solely his problem?


As I read the OP's post, the two of them were "going together". She wanted a marriage proposal. He did not wish to give her one. He did not want to commit to her. That's what makes it on him. He doesn't want to commit, they break up, and NOW he wants to know what she did while they were broken up.

As for "just to date the other guy", I assume that she made it very clear that it was the refusal to commit that caused the breakup. All we know is what she told us. That's all we can know.



> I can't believe that lots feel that the fact she lied means nothing since they were not a couple and she lied about something that happened when they weren't together.


As I tried to explain in my original post she did NOT lie. He asked if she'd used protection. For 99% of that such a statement means protection against pregnancy. She answered that she was protected since she was on the pill.

It turns out now, quite a few years later, that that is NOT what he meant. He meant: did you take precautions to prevent any of his semen from being in your vagina? That's a totally different question, isn't it?



> Playing the devil's advocate, had the same situation evolved where she was found pregnant after they got back together, would her "hiding" the truth about the use of protection make a difference then? Would all still think she didn't owe him any explanation of what happened since they were separated and he and her should just accept that the child was theirs even though it was possible it could not be his and she knows this (no form of BC is 100% except abstinence)??


If she'd have gotten pregnant it would have been through the failure of protection and we'd have an entirely different story. So I reject the hypothetical as just that, a hypothetical that drastically changes the story.

But for the record, I believe that she did not owe him any explanation at all for what went on with the ONS. The fact that he asked shows that he thinks of her not as a wife and equal, but as a wife and thus property who must answer all of her master's questions.

We have no data, but it would seem that she did not grill him on what HE did during the separation. In fact I dare say that if he'd had sex during that period he would tell her that it was none of her business and if she'd wanted him to stay loyal, she should not have broken up with him in the first place.


----------



## sidney2718

LacyS said:


> I felt that I was safe from STDs because the other guy was a doctor. He came on strong, took me to my first college football game at a major university. Doted on me, wined and dined, and you know the rest. I was smitten with all the attention after being the pursuer for so long.
> My husband did not date during our hiatus. As he pointed out, in his opinion, we were not broken up. He learned of the date on the day it was to take place and raised hell. The next morning, a Sunday, he called to ask how "my date" was the night before. It was then I asked him to ride over and talk. He parked in the driveway and as he was getting out of the car, I came out and told him to get back in the car to talk as my parents were getting ready for church. It was then when I told him. During this conversation, no specifics came up as to safe sex, etc. The jolt of what happened was enough at the time.
> 
> Over the years, there have not been big discussions over this, in fact, when even mentioned, was just a passing comment. It was when we moved to our new city this came up again. For some reason, known only to God, he brought up the specifics of the ONS. He said, "well, at least you were sober enough to use protection." Then I said, "Oh, that wasn't really the case..." He just looked at me and our world changed at that moment. The power of one word: if I had just answered yes.


In other words, when asked, you told the truth.


----------



## bandit.45

I think Lacy's husband should ask for an open marriage. That way when he does bang a young woman it won't be cheating. 

Mark my words, I will not be surprised if Lacy comes back posting as the BS one day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## TRy

LacyS said:


> He is being very sweet tonight. I basically offered to shower with him, but he was nearly finished. Brought me some chocolate milk (my night favorite) and asked if I was staying up as he was tired and ready to sack out. I'm going offline now to massage some of those tense muscles - starting with that six pack. Oh, listen to me!!
> I will check new posts in the morning. Thanks everybody. Tonight, I feel safe. He just walked by wearing only a towel and carrying his bible as he likes to read a bit before lights out. Only in America.


 Enjoy the night, but do not continue to rug sweep. Very soon you need to tell your husband that you agree that by secretively seeing the other man for that month, that you were lying by omission. You need to also tell your husband that you now acknowledge that you deliberately mislead him during the month leading up to the ONS by not clearly breaking up with him and letting him know that you were no longer in an exclusive relationship. What you did was cheating and you need to let your husband know that you now acknowledge that fact and are sorry for it. Showing true remorse without any excuses, is the best way to begin the real healing process. Good luck and be well.


----------



## sidney2718

Yeswecan said:


> You have a right not to be lied too concerning protection if asked. Who wants a gift that keeps on giving?


There are many ways to be protected against STDs. One is to assume that you don't need protection with your spouse. Another is to assume that you don't need STD protection when being with a doctor who is well aware of the STD problem.

The OP is very conflicted about all this and I understand and sympathize with that. Her very successful marriage is now challenged by something said several decades ago. But I stress that in my opinion the OP did NOT lie, she felt protected against STDs and pregnancy.

Now that she understands that her husband meant something entirely different by the question, something that most of us would never envision as being a problem, she made the mistake of changing her answer to her husband.

So we have a situation where a husband is fixated on something rather silly after all these years and seems to be intent on beating his wife up over it.

Thus I repeat. If he wants to bring up events from way back then, then she would have the right to continue pointing out that he refused to commit back then and so has no rights about the situation at all.

But she's too decent to do that to her husband, so we have another case of a husband taking out his problems on his wife because he feels that he can.


----------



## sidney2718

it-guy said:


> I didn’t realize there was a statute of limitations on something so huge. Interesting…..


Do you really think that when a man marries a woman he therefore has the right to know all the details of her past, even when they were not together? Is she just property? Or is she a woman deserving of as much respect and honor as he is?


----------



## sidney2718

Yeswecan: when you post inside the quoted material, it becomes very difficult to duplicate it in another post. Try it yourself and see.


----------



## TRy

sidney2718 said:


> In other words, when asked, you told the truth.


 She lied by omission the month leading up to the ONS. She told him the space was to work on "us" and she has admitted that he did not know that they were no longer exclusive. They talked daily and yet she never told him about her and the other man for the entire month. Once he found out about her and the other man, the husband did not talk to her again for a week, and only resumed contact with her when she pursued him again when she realized that he was moving on.


----------



## sidney2718

Q tip said:


> Now, he wonders how he can ever trust anything you say. I would say you've broken his heart and soul. You've taken his heart and crushed it in a way only a true love can.
> 
> To him it just happened yesterday.
> 
> Hoping your space was worth it.
> 
> IC and MC. Pray.
> 
> NC this "OM" permanently if ever seen. Things will be rough for a long time I fear. Hoping you are so remorseful to him for lying to him. Very remorseful. He may even think you lied to marry him. Who knows.
> 
> Sounds like he would never have married you if he knew the truth. He feels you've stolen his life.


Then perhaps he needs professional help?


----------



## sidney2718

arbitrator said:


> *It's not the sex, nor the ejaculation factor, but the lying about it, whether it was intentional or simply by omission.
> *


Arb, with respect, what did she lie about? The question was, did you use protection. What do you think that means?


----------



## ThePheonix

sidney2718 said:


> Arb, with respect, what did she lie about? The question was, did you use protection. What do you think that means?


From my observation, when a man says its not the sex, its her lying, its the sex.


----------



## sidney2718

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Props to you for owning up and telling us the truth. Go get some counseling. He's been dealing with this rugsweep for 20 years and it's going to stay ugly until it is dealt with.


Perhaps it would be best if both of them got counseling.


----------



## ThePheonix

Squeakr said:


> It would have been nice to have this information from the start, probably the same way your H feels it would have been nice to have the protection truth from the start.


You got that right. The thing is when a woman tells you they need "space", there is often another guy lurking about. At any rate, there has got to be more to this story than hubby freaking out because the guy didn't wear a rubber. This thread is a classic example of what my daddy used to say, "the more you stur sh-t the worse it stinks".


----------



## sidney2718

GusPolinski said:


> Jumping in kind of late w/ this, but I'll participate...
> 
> For many of us (including myself), yes. This _can_, however, be mitigated to some degree if children are involved.
> 
> Here's the thing... if you'd told him the truth all those years ago, he may very well have broken up w/ you. Based on that, he likely feels that everything that the two of you have built together over the course of the past 20 or so years has been based upon a lie.


Which means, Gus, that he feels that 20 years of marriage free from major problems count for nothing and two daughters count for nothing as well. This seems a bit lopsided.

Besides, as Lacy said back at the start of this thread, she felt that she could trust the OM about STDs. But we here have been making more of the STD issue than it seems the husband did. His issue was that his semen actually touched her vaginal lining!

Compared to what we usually read in TAM this is a very minor incident and both should be congratulated if this is the only issue that has come up in 20 years of marriage.

My opinion is that both should seek counseling with finding a way to get over this before it destroys the marriage. Now THAT would be a waste.


----------



## sidney2718

bandit.45 said:


> I think Lacy's husband should ask for an open marriage. That way when he does bang a young woman it won't be cheating.
> 
> Mark my words, I will not be surprised if Lacy comes back posting as the BS one day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are such an optimist!


----------



## GusPolinski

sidney2718 said:


> There are many ways to be protected against STDs. One is to assume that you don't need protection with your spouse. *Another is to assume that you don't need STD protection when being with a doctor who is well aware of the STD problem.*


First off, I've encountered and worked w/ enough doctors in my professional life to know that an M.D. does very little to stymie one's innate potential for rampant d**chebaggery. This is a cop-out.



sidney2718 said:


> The OP is very conflicted about all this and I understand and sympathize with that. *Her very successful marriage is now challenged by something said several decades ago*. But I stress that in my opinion the OP did NOT lie, she felt protected against STDs and pregnancy.


Not _said_, but *done*. Well, said too... meaning that yes, she lied. After all, if the _intent_ of one's words is to deceive, then any words spoken to that end (even if they happen to technically be true) constitute a lie.

Another cop-out.



sidney2718 said:


> Now that she understands that her husband meant something entirely different by the question, something that most of us would never envision as being a problem, she made the mistake of changing her answer to her husband.


Honestly I don't think that this is the case at all. It's pretty well known that it's much more difficult -- in the long run -- to remember to tell a lie "correctly" every time that you tell it than it is to simply tell the truth. In this case, the truth just happened to come out because OP forget to tell the lie correctly.



sidney2718 said:


> So we have a situation where a husband is fixated on something rather silly after all these years and seems to be intent on beating his wife up over it.


Sorry, but this isn't silly at all. AYFKM?



sidney2718 said:


> Thus I repeat. If he wants to bring up events from way back then, then she would have the right to continue pointing out that he refused to commit back then and so has no rights about the situation at all.


She can bring that up as much as she wants. There's a term for that... blameshifting.



sidney2718 said:


> But she's too decent to do that to her husband, so we have another case of a husband taking out his problems on his wife because he feels that he can.


/sigh



sidney2718 said:


> Do you really think that when a man marries a woman he therefore has the right to know all the details of her past, even when they were not together?


A right? Eh... I dunno. Maybe not. But I'd find an unwillingness to discuss and/or divulge the past (or a willingness to lie about it) to be pretty telling.



sidney2718 said:


> Is she just property?


Holy geez... no. But let me say this...

I "own" my wife, *but only in that she gives herself to me willingly*... and the same applies to her "ownership" of me.



sidney2718 said:


> Or is she a woman deserving of as much respect and honor as he is?


Each of us _earns_ our own "honor", and respect is given from others where it is due... often in "exchange" for -- and at a rate proportional to -- any perceived "honor". And holy crap... lay off already.

Anyway, let's be clear on this... that OP (a) didn't tell her husband (then boyfriend) about this other guy until pressed and (b) didn't explicitly mention that she no longer intended to be in an exclusive relationship prior to having sex w/ him spells one thing...

D-E-C-E-P-T-I-O-N.

Basically, she'd temporarily demoted her boyfriend (now husband) to Plan B, and was "test-driving" the doc. Period.


----------



## worried_well

R


----------



## Wolf1974

sidney2718 said:


> Do you really think that when a man marries a woman he therefore has the right to know all the details of her past, even when they were not together? Is she just property? Or is she a woman deserving of as much respect and honor as he is?


Yes if it's important to him then absolutely. Maybe you dont mind things being withheld from you but I certainly would. And this doesn't matter if a man or a woman, why would you even include that? If my girlfriend asked me anything she gets the answer and I expect the same.

Open and honest communication in marriage and relationships. What a concept !


----------



## GusPolinski

sidney2718 said:


> Which means, Gus, that he feels that 20 years of marriage free from major problems count for nothing and two daughters count for nothing as well. This seems a bit lopsided.


A solid house built upon a shaky foundation isn't solid at all.



sidney2718 said:


> Besides, as Lacy said back at the start of this thread, she felt that she could trust the OM about STDs. But we here have been making more of the STD issue than it seems the husband did. *His issue was that his semen actually touched her vaginal lining!*


Yep. Well, sort of... 

Look, the issue here is that OP was _willing_ to accept this guy's seed into her birth canal. Birth control doesn't even enter into the equation here, as that's not something that OP's "trogg" was even aware of at the time. After all, even when it's tender, sex is passionate and primal, and what it indicates -- even if only at a very base level -- is that the female is willing to accept the male's seed for the purposes of perpetuating the species. Period.

Additionally, the pain that every single betrayed boyfriend or husband has ever felt upon discovering his girlfriend's/wife's infidelity is based on this... that she was willing (again, even if only at a very base level) to conceive, carry, and birth another man's child.

OP's husband was under the impression that a condom had been used. This helped to mitigate the pain of what he perceived to be a betrayal. (Again, he wasn't under the impression that they'd broken up... right?) He was wounded at having learned that his girlfriend (now wife) had engaged in sex w/ another man, but he was able to push through it by accepting what he believed to be a truth... that she was at least aware enough of the potential for a child to be conceived that she made every reasonable effort to insure that it wouldn't happen.

And he's only now discovered that what he'd been led to believe was a lie.



sidney2718 said:


> Compared to what we usually read in TAM this is a very minor incident and both should be congratulated if this is the only issue that has come up in 20 years of marriage.


Eh... I wouldn't say that it's "very minor", at least not to OP's husband. After all, he's entitled to feel however he feels about it. But yeah... when compared to some of the other scenarios that we've read about there, this one doesn't seem too terribly bad.



sidney2718 said:


> My opinion is that both should seek counseling with finding a way to get over this before it destroys the marriage. Now THAT would be a waste.


I definitely agree w/ ^this.


----------



## Wolf1974

FalconKing said:


> Lacy, thank you for your clarification. This happened to a buddy of mine. His girlfriend broke up with him to sleep with another guy and thought she could go back to him of things didn't work out. He stood up to her and didn't take her back. But that was probably because she had done that to him once before.
> 
> It doesn't sound like he has been hounding you about it but from your initial post it did come across that way. This tells me that you didn't really see it as a big deal that you calculated this to have unprotected sex with some dude. And it sounds like you weren't really that into him. You just wanted to fvck him. You are just now understanding the magnitude of this and that's kind of disturbing...
> 
> I also cringed reading the post of all the people who wanted to use your story to validate their position that their *spouse doesn't need to know anything about what they are doing if they are not together*:slap:.


I know right. I read this as I want a marriage, commitment, make kids, sleep together, support one another, see each other through good and bad times, grow old together and be each others everything .......just not going to tell you everything cause it's not all your buisness. 

:bsflag:


----------



## GusPolinski

And let me just say this...

OP, I'm not bashing you. Seriously, I'm not. I'm attempting only to give you a glimpse into what your husband is feeling, as well as what he was likely feeling all those years ago.


----------



## Wolf1974

I think that for the OP it happend so long ago it just doesn't mean anything to her and was maybe surprised by her husbands reaction. I commend her for asking for help and clarity. If she had taken the stand some had here that it's no biggie and suck it up that would have spoke very poorly to the husband. I hope everything Works out


----------



## FalconKing

Personal said:


> Hi LacyS,
> 
> No! I have no problem with knowing another man has ejaculated inside my wife outside of our relationship.
> 
> I think your husband is a sulk and should get over himself and his archaic views.
> 
> Soiled!!! Really?.... I can't understand how anyone can think this today. Both men and women enjoy sex, therefore both men and women have sex, sometimes with many partners. There is nothing wrong with men and women having sex as consenting adults. Since sex is not wrong a woman cannot be soiled by having sex whether it is with one person or a thousand.
> 
> My wife and I had history before we met when we were turning 26 and 25. I know some of her history as she knows some of mine. My only thoughts on her history is, I am glad she had fun and enjoyed some of it it along the way.
> 
> I think such details only weight heavily on those who think women belong to them as property.
> 
> I think women would do well to avoid men who think that way, since it only causes problems.


I think you should read all of her posts. She pretty much caused the problem. Her husband is not Ray Rice....


----------



## Mr Blunt

Lacy

Two issues:

*1	OM Ejaculation inside of you:*
It is one of the big three. The first is that you desired the OM, the second is that you allow him to enter into you then the third is that you choose to tell him that he could deposit his DNA fluid in you when he was prepared to use a condom.


*2	You lied to him and kept that lie for 20 years*
You proved to him that honesty with him is not what you are 100% committed to do.


I am a man and I will answer your questions:

How important is that? It is damn important!

Is it a major issue? Hell yes!

Is it a deal breaker? For some men Yes. My guess is that it is not for your husband but you have done major damage!

He will also realize that because you could not get your way and could not force him to commit when you wanted you got resentful. Then you wanted revenge and you got it by your ONS. Then you choose to lie and keep that lie for 20 years. That was ether horrible judgment on your part or it was another act of selfishness.

Most of us, including me, have all been selfish and resentful at times in a marriage of 20+ years. *Your husband seems to take his faith very serious so my guess world is that he will not divorce you and will try hard to gain back as much as possible.*

I would suggest, at the right time, for you to tell your husband that you have let him down and yourself down and that you hate what you did and realize that you were selfish. Tell him that you were trying to control him with the commitment issue 20 years ago, got resentful, and took vengeance on him. You then compounded your selfishness with keeping a lie for 20 years. *If you really hate what you did and are truly remorseful then ask him to forgive you in his own time. Tell him that you know that his forgiveness of you will be a gift but that you know he is capable of grace.*


Finally tell him that you would like to take all those hurts that you did to him and never talk about them again and throw them so far away from your lives. Tell him if he is wiling you would love for him to *throw those hurts as far as the East is from the West and remember them no more*. He will understand that language.


----------



## FalconKing

Personal said:


> Thanks, I have just finished reading all of her posts and stand by what I wrote.
> 
> Since she did break up with him and wasn't married to him at the time. She did nothing wrong by having sex with another man sans condom or otherwise.
> 
> What she did with another man outside of their marriage is not his business. In the same way whatever he may have done with others outside of their marriage is not her business either.
> 
> If one is unable to cope with an answer they would be wise to not ask the question.


She wanted to try this other guy out and ended it for that reason. She knew she could go back to him if it didn't work out the way she wanted. Also, she wanted to make her husband jealous. But you are right it's her right to do whatever she wants. But it's not like he was pestering her about it. It came up and she never told him about the no condom. And apparently things between them were better in her last post, he was probably just shocked that she never told him that. 

So you still stand by her husband being a sulk with archaic views then? And you found nothing negative about her behavior? 

:yawn2: Whatever dude.


----------



## italianjob

Personal said:


> Thanks, I have just finished reading all of her posts and stand by what I wrote.
> 
> Since *she did break up with him *and wasn't married to him at the time. She did nothing wrong by having sex with another man sans condom or otherwise.
> 
> What she did with another man outside of their marriage is not his business. In the same way whatever he may have done with others outside of their marriage is not her business either.
> 
> If one is unable to cope with an answer they would be wise to not ask the question.


You may have just finished reading, but you must have been distracted, since it looks like she broke up with him only IN HER HEAD, so who she was banging, as far as he was made aware of by her, WAS his business...


----------



## treyvion

Personal said:


> Hi LacyS,
> 
> No! I have no problem with knowing another man has ejaculated inside my wife outside of our relationship.
> 
> I think your husband is a sulk and should get over himself and his archaic views.
> 
> Soiled!!! Really?.... I can't understand how anyone can think this today. Both men and women enjoy sex, therefore both men and women have sex, sometimes with many partners. There is nothing wrong with men and women having sex as consenting adults. Since sex is not wrong a woman cannot be soiled by having sex whether it is with one person or a thousand.
> 
> My wife and I had history before we met when we were turning 26 and 25. I know some of her history as she knows some of mine. My only thoughts on her history is, I am glad she had fun and enjoyed some of it it along the way.
> 
> I think such details only weight heavily on those who think women belong to them as property.
> 
> I think women would do well to avoid men who think that way, since it only causes problems.


I don't think someone who feels someone been "too loose" with too many people for their liking is a wrong thing. Maybe you don't want so many people to know your siginificant other in such a personal way, there is nothing wrong with that.


----------



## italianjob

I have no symphathy for the OP of this thread...

In the end what happened was:

- 20 years or so ago the OP was going steady with her future H, but she was flattered by the attention of another guy. Her then BF wasn't really longing to get married, and the new guy was a doctor, so he could be a good candidate even long term.
- She devised the classic plan to keep the old and try the new, telling her bf she "needed space" (in my experience and from what I've seen happen to friends, when a girl/woman uses this expression it always means "I have a new guy to try"). This course of action is especially designed to be ambiguous enough to let the user technically get to bang someone else claiming it's not cheating, but not really ending the previous relationship, so if the SO is gullible enough you can step back in.
- The tryout didn't turn out good, maybe it was the "pencil" factor, maybe the other guy just wanted to have some fun and had no intention to get married to the OP, but luckily for her her BF and future H was gullible enough and proceeded to rug sweep.
- New details about the episode triggered H, who maybe is re evaluating the succession of events to come to a conclusion similar to mine, and is reading differently the last 20 years or so.


*IMO*, there is infidelity in this thread, and is far worse than standard cheating, because of the amount of premeditation and deception involved.


----------



## TRy

sidney2718 said:


> As I tried to explain in my original post she did NOT lie. He asked if she'd used protection. For 99% of that such a statement means protection against pregnancy. She answered that she was protected since she was on the pill.
> 
> It turns out now, quite a few years later, that that is NOT what he meant. He meant: did you take precautions to prevent any of his semen from being in your vagina? That's a totally different question, isn't it?


 Actually, by the OP's own admission, there is no doubt that she did in fact "lie" when asked if they used protection. In post #1 of this thread the OP stated "I assumed then that he was concerned about STDs and thus lied and told him that we had used protection." For you to be stating that she did not lie on this point ignores the facts as clearly stated by the OP. This begs the question, are your posts in this thread deliberately designed to ignore the facts just to be argumentative?


----------



## murphy5

norajane said:


> I never would have told the details of the ONS. I would have told him about having the ONS after we had gotten back together (but not before, since there is no reason he needed to know since we were no longer together), but the details are really none of his business, IMO. Details seem to weigh heavily on some men's minds and serve no good purpose.
> ?!!


i agree, details DO weight heavily on mens minds, But my conclusion for action would use this fact differently. 

He is probably having mind movies over this. he is playing back in his mind you having sex with this guy, trying to figure out all the possibilities, the number of times, the sex positions, was it unprotected, etc etc.

The current relationship is not going to do well until he STOPS those mind movies. 

So my thinking on this would be to sit him down, have a long conversation about it. Tell him he can ask ANY question he wants, and you will tell him the complete truth. Then do it, let him ask away until he is fully satisfied.

Yeah, he had no right asking you about it. But now that the cat's head is a little out of the bag, need to get it all the way out for it to stop being an issue. you need to purify the landscape with fire, so new crops can grow.


----------



## larry.gray

TRy said:


> Everyone says that until it is the person that they are in love with that cheats on them. In theory I agree with you, but when it is your life, it stops being a theory.


I can understand folks working it out when they have a long history and children together.

But pre-marriage without kids involved? It makes no sense. That's a HUGE time to move on event.


----------



## larry.gray

bandit.45 said:


> I think Lacy's husband should ask for an open marriage. That way when he does bang a young woman it won't be cheating.


A dude NEVER wins playing that game. 



bandit.45 said:


> Mark my words, I will not be surprised if Lacy comes back posting as the BS one day.


I hope not, but wouldn't be surprised.


----------



## larry.gray

sidney2718 said:


> Besides, as Lacy said back at the start of this thread, she felt that she could trust the OM about STDs. But we here have been making more of the STD issue than it seems the husband did.


Here is a hint - if someone is up for going bareback on a ONS, you can't trust them about STD's. He may be a doctor, but that MD applies to the big head and the OM was thinking with the little one at the time.


----------



## italianjob

Personal said:


> Again, she did nothing wrong, until they were married she had no obligation to him sexually. He knew she had been with another man so therefore was adequately informed. Despite being informed he chose to marry her despite that fact. To presume sex with another man does not involve fluid exchange is somewhat naive.


She obviously deceived him... He was gullible enough to not understand he was being deceived and went on to marry her, Experience and age have now opened his eyes and he's having second toughts. It's not a legal dispute, it's not about being married or not, it's about what they (both, not only her) feel there should be in a committed relationship.


----------



## Dyokemm

Sidney,

Do you even bother to keep up with the OP's own posts and admissions?

Because if you do, then you should realize that if she was to take the attitude that you propose after all she has admitted she truly did, then her M, which she wants to keep, would probably come to a crashing end.

She DID lie. by her own admission, as to the nature of the 'space' she asked for....it wasn't just to think about her relationship with BH and what she wanted...IT WAS TO ACTIVELY PURSUE POSOM...by her own admission.

And if you think that her BH does not deserve to know he was gaslighted for 30 days, while he tried harder to reconnect with OP, while she pursued this relationship with POS, then I suggest you at least stop posting opinions and advice that will lead to the utter destruction of her M now in all likelihood.

OP wants to save her M....the attitude and advice you are suggesting will probably end it.


----------



## 2ntnuf

> Yes I do, until she was married to him she was under no obligation to guarantee him anything.


I agree with this to some extent. Sounds like they were in a committed relationship. Committed to each other. That carries a little more weight than dating. Still, technically you are correct. I think at issue is what they need to do to make things right again. 

I wasn't picking on the member who posted this. I just wanted to make a comment about what I think. I get the impression many others think similarly. 

There's this fuzzy area about whether he understood they were broken up or just casually dating. I don't think he understood at all. That's really on him for not asking. It's on her too for not making it clear. I guess many folks seem to think they just break up and continue with a friendship style relationship. I think that's tough to do when two have been in love and in a relationship. 

So, I think you try to do nice things for him. Talk with him. Be honest and open. Answer his questions. Be direct. Give him a little space. Don't let him take advantage of the situation or you.

Hopefully, he will get some counseling if this doesn't work out soon. He is taking it very hard. I am not saying he doesn't have a right to take it any way he wants. His feelings are his. What a shame. Sorry you are going through this.


----------



## Yeswecan

LacyS said:


> Sorry, I've been away for a bit, grocery store night. I'll try to answer some of your questions for clarification. But first, thanks for the advice.
> In terms of being broken up, the truth is that when I told him that I needed my space, it was to open the door for the other guy who was beginning to show interest in me and I became interested in him. I have to be honest here, it wasn't a severe all ties breakup. My boyfriend/hubby was calling every day or every other day, but by this time, I was being mean to him. Doing the 180, as y'all say. Perhaps that made him more interested. Looking back now, my BF/Hubby was coming on so strong, it made me resentful. It made the OM more interesting. Could BF/Hubby have dated other people with my approval. I don't know. My mind had suddenly gone elsewhere. The ONS guy and I had one more lunch date the following week and, really, there was no chemistry. As much as I wanted there to be. None.
> By this time, BF/Hubby had started to disappear from the scene. He wasn't calling anymore. I eventually called him early on a Saturday morning and we began to iron things out.
> The reason, as already stated, that I told him that a condom was used was because of being afraid he would think about STDs. I never, I mean NEVER thought the other would hurt him to this point.
> 
> ------- this below is from another poster, it helps me understand what I'm dealing with----------------------
> "In general, please understand, many men find that to be the ultimate in emasculation or betrayal. Allowing another man to do that is the worst. To do that is to give some other guy your complete physical self. There is nothing more you can give a man in that regard. It's total surrender. To your H, it feels like a loss of ownership (for lack of a better word) to his most prized possession. The feeling is hard to describe." End Quote.


What you have said here is your H was plan B. No one wants to be plan B.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

LacyS said:


> Q Tip, I guess I deserve that shot. In my mind, I was thinking the new guy might work out. He was young, never married, un-attached. New in town. But a little afraid to - I was so in love with BF/Hubby and had chased him for so long. It was, as Hubby puts it, an exclusive relationship until I got tired of waiting to get really serious.
> We learned about the OM on FB quite accidentally when befriending one of Hubby's old classmates that is a Pharmacist here in the city where we recently moved. the OM is on his Friends List. Makes sense, since the OM works in the medical field.
> 
> From what I am getting from the advice, the best way to head this off is to attempt to explain the lie. I am sorry, I never thought it would matter this much to him. Really, the night I told him the 100% truth, I was kind of laughing about it, he was too, until that news dropped. My god, his face went white.
> He hadn't hounded me for 20 years about it as some have thought. It was barely brought up, not discussed much at all. We were busy raising our two daughters. Hubby recently retired, got back into working out and keeps a mean house. Sh--, I wish this had never happened.


Well, the lying and deception has come back to haunt you. I don't believe your H deserved any of this. You will need to allow your H to come to terms with this. It is all brand new again in his mind. You know why? Because he now has 100% truth that is all new to him. Getting the listing ship right again will take some work.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

sidney2718 said:


> Yeswecan: when you post inside the quoted material, it becomes very difficult to duplicate it in another post. Try it yourself and see.


Probably because it us red on a pink color background. I'll change the color I use. Thanks!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Yeswecan

LacyS, you TT and deceived your H. You TT and deceived us in this very thread. This behavior not only caused havoc for you and your H it also created havoc here. You see what has happened. A mess. Start mending this situation by being truthful with everything you do from here on out. You'll sleep better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## italianjob

Personal said:


> *She had sex with another man when she was not in a committed relationship *with her husband. Therefore he would be well served by getting over it and crying less.
> 
> When a man punches a window on being told that a woman had sex with someone else (think violence and intimidation), a woman may not be well served by immediately telling such a man she did it sans condom.
> 
> Experience and age has appears to have done nothing for his maturity or respect for women.
> 
> *When do you think it is okay to intimidate, threaten and or hurt women?*
> 
> 
> 
> 1st bold: No, this is not true.
> 
> 2nd bold: Never, of course, but, just as he married her anyway knowing she deceived him, she didn't feel that much intimidated and threatened since she did marry him anyway.
> 
> 
> And after this, since your reading comprehensions skills are obviously selective, I won't discuss with you anymore since you understand only the parts you want to understand, and any argument with you it's pointless... Whatever you say it's alright :yawn2:
Click to expand...


----------



## GusPolinski

Personal said:


> She had sex with another man when she was not in a committed relationship with her husband. Therefore he would be well served by getting over it and crying less.
> 
> When a man punches a window on being told that a woman had sex with someone else (think violence and intimidation), a woman may not be well served by immediately telling such a man she did it sans condom.
> 
> Experience and age has appears to have done nothing for his maturity or respect for women.
> 
> When do you think it is okay to intimidate, threaten and or hurt women?


OMG! He punched a window! Call the police!

AYFKM?


----------



## Chaparral

If he didn't know she was going out with other men as she has said, how did her boyfriend, who would not commit, know she was going out with the doctor who he said was only trying to get in her pants?

She also said for the lst month she didn't know if her bf was dating other girls or not.


It wasn't a shotgun wedding either, she told him what she did. The condom thing should be a moot point.

Kissing, fondling, manual, oral, intercourse....................but a condom is a deal breaker. Makes my head spin. I just think that's weird.


----------



## Gabriel

Lacy, please keep us posted on how things are going with your husband.

In the end, how you two move on and proceed/heal from here is all that really matters.


----------



## FalconKing

Personal, I think you've somehow convinced yourself that her husband is out of control and somewhat abusive and people calling out the OP means we have something against women. 


Or maybe you want to be right so bad seeing it this way is the only way you can be.


----------



## convert

LacyS said:


> Q Tip, I guess I deserve that shot. In my mind, I was thinking the new guy might work out. He was young, never married, un-attached. New in town. But a little afraid to - I was so in love with BF/Hubby and had chased him for so long. It was, as Hubby puts it, an exclusive relationship until I got tired of waiting to get really serious.
> We learned about the OM on FB quite accidentally when befriending one of Hubby's old classmates that is a Pharmacist here in the city where we recently moved. the OM is on his Friends List. Makes sense, since the OM works in the medical field.
> 
> From what I am getting from the advice, the best way to head this off is to attempt to explain the lie. I am sorry, I never thought it would matter this much to him. Really, the night I told him the 100% truth, I was kind of laughing about it, he was too, until that news dropped. *My god, his face went white*.
> He hadn't hounded me for 20 years about it as some have thought. It was barely brought up, not discussed much at all. We were busy raising our two daughters. Hubby recently retired, got back into working out and keeps a mean house. Sh--, I wish this had never happened.



Oh man I know that feeling.

Lacy be advised if he sees you on the computer a lot here (TAM), the way is acting know could make him worry even more, put him at ease ..be transparent if he ask tell him the truth about this forum.

maybe even invite him here...I do not know though....might help him or it might make it worse.


----------



## NoChoice

Ok, first off I think the root of this is not clearly understood by most. I believe this was about a timeline. They had dated for 2 years and he wasn't ready to commit. Does that mean engagement or something less?

I think she wanted to move ahead and he was hesitant, for whatever reason, to meet her schedule. So she tells him she needs space thinking that will goad him into action. For a month that doesn't work and she seethes. She has to try something else so, as fate would have it, she bumps into a man who she has been told wants to get into her pants, how convenient.

H finds out that they are going out on a date, how? Did she tell him or just make sure he knew about it? H gets very angry. If he knows they are through why does he care? She is intimate with the guy on the first date. Is she promiscuous? She has only been intimate with one other man besides H in her life. Did she feel such an overwhelming connection with this pencil guy that she had to do it?

H calls the next morning to see how the date went because that's what ex boyfriends do? She tells him he better come over cause she's ready to deploy the next phase of her plan and it hits the bulls eye. H becomes enraged and punches the window of his car because that's what ex boyfriends sitting in the front yard of their ex girlfriends house do when they don't care about someone?

H thinks now about really losing her and her plan works and they reconcile and marry. His questioning of her was a way of trying to save some tiny portion of what was his (not inferring ownership, the guys understand this) and he finds a thin line that is enough to separate him from OM.

By the way does anyone else find it curious H is never said to mention the relationship she had with her first "love"? If he is this wildly obsessive person, why not?

Fast forward 20 years and he now finds out the thin line he banked on and made decisions on is now erased. The plan worked for 20 years but now the piper must be paid. All that to answer your question and the answer is that under these circumstances it would bother me very much.


----------



## Squeakr

sidney2718 said:


> As I read the OP's post, the two of them were "going together". She wanted a marriage proposal. He did not wish to give her one. He did not want to commit to her. That's what makes it on him. He doesn't want to commit, they break up, and NOW he wants to know what she did while they were broken up.


But they weren't just "going together" but by her own admissions in an exclusive LTR and she never specifically told him or behaved as though they were "broken up" but merely she "needed space". This is not the same as broken up, so this makes it on her as well and not fully on him as you propose.



> As for "just to date the other guy", I *assume* that she made it very clear that it was the refusal to commit that caused the breakup. All we know is what she told us. That's all we can know.


Once again semantics on your part. How come your "assumptions" and definitions of "commitment" are the end all be all. He was in an exclusive LTR and he stated (according to her words) that is how he believed it to be. Just because he was not ready to marry, doesn't mean he hadn't "committed" to her, and we don't know what he told her, maybe they discussed things and he said he wasn't ready at this time, but maybe in the future he would be. Just because he isn't "committing" at the pace she expects doesn't mean he isn't willing to commit! IT is not the same thing.



> As I tried to explain in my original post she did NOT lie. He asked if she'd used protection. For 99% of that such a statement means protection against pregnancy. She answered that she was protected since she was on the pill.


They were together for 2 years. Do you think that he *didn't* know she was on the pill?? Doubt it, as they were sexually active and talking marriage, so you can bet they talked about that aspect as well. When he asked about protection we all knew what he was asking and that was specifically about using a condom. You are playing the semantics again and gas lighting the question just as she did. When my WW cheated on me and we both knew she was on BC, she answered the question as it pertained to condoms, as she knew what I was asking as much as I did and no further discussion was needed. Do you think he believed that she had gone off the pill since they stopped "dating" as that is what he was asking? No way and you know this, stop gas lighting the situation.



> It turns out now, quite a few years later, that that is NOT what he meant. He meant: did you take precautions to prevent any of his semen from being in your vagina? That's a totally different question, isn't it?


Gaslighting as that is what was meant from the start (he, she, and all of us knew that is exactly what was meant then and now and nothing has changed since it was initially asked except she told the truth this time). The real issue is that she now "finally told the truth after all these years" and it has changed the dynamics of their relationship as her lies have now come back to affect her relationship.




> If she'd have gotten pregnant it would have been through the failure of protection and we'd have an entirely different story. So I reject the hypothetical as just that, a hypothetical that drastically changes the story.


No more than your hypotheticals are changing the story. She has added specific facts rating that she never "told" him they were done, she admits lying about the condom (her reasons are different than you state, but you believe your reality to be the truth, even with her stating the opposite), she admits that she was in constant contact and never told him about the date she was planning until the morning of, they were still carrying on as though they were together (talking everyday, etc), and she slept with the other guy for revenge. How is it unbelievable to think that he thought they were still together, just not as "involved" as before? Your hypotheticals are that he knew about everything (including them being broken up) and therefor has no right to feel violated or cheated upon?? Wrong, he has every right. 

If everything else was the same except it was added that they were engaged and the same scenario happened would the thoughts be the same that he had no expectation of her to remain faithful to him? They were engaged but not married, so therefor they weren't really "committed" as per your definition. In terms of "commitment value" the only difference between agreed upon exclusive long term relationships and the marriage is the actual legal documentation of a union. Yes vows "might" have been taken, but it is not always necessary as one can be married not within the church, so therefor not have to take vows, does this make the commitment any less in this case??



> But for the record, I believe that she did not owe him any explanation at all for what went on with the ONS. The fact that he asked shows that he thinks of her not as a wife and equal, but as a wife and thus property who must answer all of her master's questions.


She has admitted he is very religious and according to the scriptures, that is the exact way it is supposed to be. Women were property, and the only thing that is acceptable reason for the end to a union is adultery. So he may be holding true to his beliefs, should we wrong him for being devout in his convictions??



> We have no data, but it would seem that she did not grill him on what HE did during the separation. In fact I dare say that if he'd had sex during that period he would tell her that it was none of her business and if she'd wanted him to stay loyal, she should not have broken up with him in the first place.


Once again gas lighting. A hypothetical that never happened (by her words through his admission, and once again he didn't know they were broken up factors into this as well) that would change the entire dynamic of the scenario, so this shouldn't be allowed and rejected as you didn't allow and reject my hypothetical.


----------



## ThePheonix

Chaparral said:


> how did her boyfriend, who would not commit, know she was going out with the doctor who *he said was only trying to get in her pants?*


Again Chappy you point a key bit of exculpatory evidence in her favor. The dynamics of their relationship in respect to his "refusal to commit" remains unknown. My take, based on my cursory reading of the post, is the old boy was trying to slow play it in order to keep a no strings attached relationship with her for as long as possible. She grew tired of it and began thinking of other options. He was apparently aware the other guy was oozing in the picture with this " he's only trying to get in your pants" comment. 
In the final analysis, maybe she was playing it like a monkey that won't let go of one limb before having a firm grip on another. Nevertheless, our boy knew that she had got laid by this other guy, because she told him. He could have walked away but he didn't. By his own free will he chose to continue the relationship, got real serious about it, and married her knowing she got laid by this other guy. His freaking out now, after 20 years, over not using a rubber really seems to be a red herring. Something else is going on.


----------



## Wolf1974

Personal said:


> Yes I do, until she was married to him she was under no obligation to guarantee him anything.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, she did nothing wrong, until they were married she had no obligation to him sexually. He knew she had been with another man so therefore was adequately informed. Despite being informed he chose to marry her despite that fact. To presume sex with another man does not involve fluid exchange is somewhat naive.
> 
> 
> 
> Loose! Really!!??, Why use a loaded descriptor typically used for s**t shaming women? If men want to have better sex with women they would do well to change their thinking.
> 
> The sooner men get over their childish sense of sexual entitlement, the sooner they will have better sexual relationships with women.
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't care less how many people know my significant other in such a personal way (prior to her marital commitment to me). The only reason why someone would be concerned about that, is because they thought "their woman" was their property. Consequently they would be more worried by what others think of him than than anything else.


So this issue isn't important to YOU but it was important to him. He asked about the details and she downplayed it. How is any of that not his business? He was using it, right or wrong to YOU, as a point of contention of should he get back together with her. He was given false information and moved forward.

So You can gloss this over because it's a non issue to you. To be honest if it were me the lie would be WAY more imporant than the sex without a condom. But it doesn't matter cause this is an issue for him. One the OP obviously anticipated or she wouldn't have lied in the first place.


----------



## michzz

Dead horse? Meet whip!


----------



## z_man

LacyS said:


> So my question, to men, is:
> 
> Would the knowledge of another man ejaculating inside your girl/wife be a deal breaker? How important is this to you. I never thought about it, but now it seems to me that he feels that I am soiled.
> 
> (



For me, the knowledge would be devastating, as it indicates that you gave yourself *completely *to another guy.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

I always like when someone raises the married caveat. 'Oh it doesn't matter they were just dating."

Different strokes for different folks. 

I'd actually agree except she said she didn't break really up with him. As someone who went through that crap and was promptly called a cheater, I'll chalk it up to "it hasn't happened to you."


----------



## Yeswecan

Personal said:


> OMG! She had sex with another man before she was married! Call the police!


It is not quite as simple as that in this particular case.


----------



## LacyS

Good morning. Its been an interesting night, to say the least. Yesterday, this issue really began to eat me alive. Since it started, I have been online at different sites like this one checking out the posts that might be relevant to my case and in terms of helping; however, this one is perhaps unique. I was wearing my heart on my sleeve yesterday and decided to post here at TAM in hopes of getting helpful advice on understanding why my husband became so upset over the non use of contraceptive back twenty years ago. This morning he spelled it out for me and I'll get to that in a moment.

When making my posts yesterday, I never intended to TT, or mislead. Reading back now, I can see a disjointed effort, but can promise y'all that it was the result of being upset and trying to get it all out. I'm sorry if you felt that I was trying to pull one over on you.
Some things back then have become hazy, to say the least, and emotions can cloud things, too. At the time, I was barely 21 years old and was in love for the first time and dealing with emotions of what I thought was rejection from the man in question. What kept me holding on, partly, was the fact that he was true to me in spite of being flirted with all the time, even in front of me. I kept close tabs on him, so he was true. I knew that he was nursing a broken heart from his last relationship (his second broken heart) and that it would take some time. Maybe the timing was off, as many times I felt that I was a go to for him. But he had me at hello and he was true, so I kept at him hoping he would eventually see that I was the one. 

It seems from reading your post that a lot has been debated about my intentions when deciding to date the OM. I will again attempt to clarify as best as possible what was going on. I know this will contain some new info, but I didn't TT on purpose, just didn't know it might be relevant.

This date with the OM occurred in November of that year. The previous summer, I had decided to see if my relationship with BF/Hubby could advance to the next level. Maybe a solid commitment, hopefully an engagement. I was ready, no doubt. It seemed though the closer I tried to get, the more he would pull away. I had make some sacrifices such as staying home with my parents while attending the local university in my hometown. You know, doing without the college scene of dorm parties and all. I was satisfied without that as long as I had him. 

Anyway, he seemed to become more and more distant, and we began to argue about us and then about little things. This went on for a couple of months. Instead of getting closer to him, he was pulling away. I began to feel used. My feelings didn't matter. 

In October, I was working part time at a pharmacy near a medical park when a new guy in town would come by to get coffee and a sandwich (Px had a diner) and we began to chat, just a little. He was older, like my BF.Hubby, kind of cute and was looking at a bright future. I began to think. I began to think about the OM.

I asked BF/Hubby if he knew where our relationship was headed and he told me that he didn't know. He was happy in the moment. By this time me and the OM were on first name basis instead of Dr.OM, or as Hubby likes to say Dr. Pencil ----. I was certainly flattered that he was paying me attention and it felt good to be noticed and validated.
BF/Hubby and I were nearly on the outs from arguing about seemingly every little thing, so I decided to take a chance. Now this is important to note, since it has caused arguments on this thread. when I told BF/H that I need space, etc. , me and OM were just friends, talking, but nothing romantic yet. But to be truthful, I was hoping for something to get me out of the funk I was in. So I got my space.

Subsequently, things with the OM were going ok, when he asked me out. I was flattered. No doubt. A lot of women were interested in him from what I knew and he was asking me out. I have always like older men and he was 31, ten years older than me. So I took the bait. Maybe it was something way back in my mind that made me start to turn against BF/H to rationalize my behavior towards him that grew increasingly animistic. I was really pissy to him. 

On the night in question (ONS) I knew, even though revenge against love or whatever, that a line was crossed. I just didn't know then how much it would affect things. The next morning, when BF/H drove over and I sat in his car and told him what had happened, my emotions were all over the place. Part of me wanted to hurt him, after all, I was rejected in my mind. So suck it, buddy. But part of me also felt that this would be a deal breaker and he would finally leave making me get on with my life as if I couldn't just do it by myself. I needed prodding. Worse yet, part of me hoped he would rescue me. From myself.

What I told him about the ONS at that particular time were the basic things: we went back to Pencil's apartment after the game, drank some wine, and ended up having casual sex. On the first date. Later, as we reconciled, more specifics were added and as God as my witness, the reason I told him we used protection was because of the issue with STDs that I thought BF/H would be concerned about. Still, it was, and is a lie. One that has returned to bite a chunck out of my hiney.


----------



## turnera

He needs therapy. He's turning this into something it should not be. He's right to be hurt, but you've also shown him 20 years of good marriage. Work it out in therapy.


----------



## naiveonedave

IMO based on your last post, you actually cheated on you BF, soon to be fiance/husband. Then the TT occured and I can understand his pain.


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## NoChoice

Still, it was, and is a lie. One that has returned to bite a chunck out of my hiney.[/QUOTE]

Lies never return carrying good tidings of great joy!


----------



## LacyS

So this morning I asked Hubby, in a nice way, what hurt him more: the withholding of truth or the part about the orgasm. And please explain it to me as I cannot wrap my head around it fully. Maybe its a woman thing.

He said both are bothersome but to him, it was the part that happened during the sex. I asked him to be more specific. I'll try to write this as verbatim as possible...

Hubby: What is the most intimate thing that can occur between a man and a woman?

Me: It depends, most would say coitus.

Hubby: You've been watching too much Big Bang Theory. But would you agree that is true - coitus as the most intimate exchange?

Me: Yes, I suppose.

Hubby: Suppose? Offer me a more intimate exchange then. What could be more intimate?

Me: OK, then coitus, sex.

Hubby: Good, then we agree so far. During intercourse, what is the most intimate moment a person or couple can experience?

Me: (I knew where this was headed) The whole thing really. I know what you're getting at, but women don't have to orgasm to find sex pleasurable. 

Hubby: But can we agree that during an orgasm, you are totally giving yourself to your lover? Isn't it true that one can barely contain themselves at that moment? You know what I mean.

Me: Yes, but I think it can be different with men.

Hubby: Well, let me tell you about men, then. That night, you gave the most intimate part of yourself to a man. You took his seed. On the first date and you were on top doing it to him. Moreover, the next day, you call me to come over and I thought we would make up, but you come out of the house carrying a box of my things. Then acted *****y as hell to me when telling me about your "date." By the way, Pencil D--k's cum was probably still swimming inside you at that moment. And I find out twenty years later? How am I supposed to feel.

By this time, I was getting defensive even though his words were spoken calmly. I told him that nobody could tell him how to feel.
He said, "Damn right!" and that ended the conversation.


----------



## GusPolinski

Chaparral said:


> If he didn't know she was going out with other men as she has said, how did her boyfriend, who would not commit, know she was going out with the doctor who he said was only trying to get in her pants?
> 
> She also said for the lst month she didn't know if her bf was dating other girls or not.
> 
> 
> It wasn't a shotgun wedding either, she told him what she did. The condom thing should be a moot point.
> 
> *Kissing, fondling, manual, oral, intercourse....................but a condom is a deal breaker.* Makes my head spin. I just think that's weird.


OK... then why lie about it?!?


----------



## soccermom2three

ThePheonix said:


> Again Chappy you point a key bit of exculpatory evidence in her favor. The dynamics of their relationship in respect to his "refusal to commit" remains unknown. My take, based on my cursory reading of the post, is the old boy was trying to slow play it in order to keep a no strings attached relationship with her for as long as possible. She grew tired of it and began thinking of other options. He was apparently aware the other guy was oozing in the picture with this " he's only trying to get in your pants" comment.
> In the final analysis, maybe she was playing it like a monkey that won't let go of one limb before having a firm grip on another. Nevertheless, our boy knew that she had got laid by this other guy, because she told him. He could have walked away but he didn't. By his own free will he chose to continue the relationship, got real serious about it, and married her knowing she got laid by this other guy. His freaking out now, after 20 years, over not using a rubber really seems to be a red herring. Something else is going on.


I agree. He didn't have to marry her. I think he's enjoyed lording this ONS over her, bringing it up again and again over a 20 year period. It gives him some kind of twisted power. That's why I think he needs to talk to a therapist.


----------



## LacyS

He texted later and told me that he didn't mean to sound rough, but I asked, and he answered.
So guys - is this on the mark?


----------



## TimeOut

WorkingOnMe said:


> Bareback and ejactulating inside is 100 times more intimate than with a condom. The only thing worse would be if you did something with the OM that you refused your husband.


^^^ This ^^^


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Thanks for the explanation. I'll say it again, counseling. He needs to learn how to deal with this in the proper fashion. Like I said earlier, I think he is being too whiny, even with the further clarifications.


----------



## Squeakr

LacyS said:


> I was wearing my heart on my sleeve yesterday and decided to post here at TAM in hopes of getting helpful advice on understanding why my husband became so upset over the non use of *contraceptive* back twenty years ago.
> 
> On the first date. Later, as we reconciled, more specifics were added and as God as my witness, the reason I told him we used *protection* was because of the issue with STDs that I thought BF/H would be concerned about. Still, it was, and is a lie. One that has returned to bite a chunck out of my hiney.


This is the problem. You keep avoiding the issue as it is and was a non-issue to you. You are purposely choosing wording to support your thoughts and not thinking about him and his feelings (not trying to discredit your feelings, but you came here asking how to help him, that means start trying to see it from his viewpoint).

Condoms aren't solely for contraception. He asked about protection (and he knew you were on contraceptives, right?), therefor his concern was STDs (and that "special" intimacy) and not conception. You are interchangeably using these terms as they support your thoughts and needs. His thoughts are the one's you are concerned about, from your posting, yet you are not thinking like he is and looking at it from his viewpoint.

You also never said whether you had given him the same "intimate" connection that you gave this other guy during your relationship (for lots of guys finding out that their girl has given to someone else that which they have/had never gotten can be the breaking point for many and tell them just how they rate in a relationship). You don't need to tell us, but just something to think about as well, as this can affect his judgements also (especially after all these years).

Sounds to me like you were seeking an exit affair. He might be thinking the same when looking back and this makes him rethink everything over the last 20 years and whether he was true in his assessments.

You both could benefit from talking to someone about this as the issues seem deeper than you may realize.


----------



## LacyS

I texted back and told him this really needs to resolve. I'm batty! I also told him that I was posting on here for advice and thought that he should read it. He said he would this afternoon. And that we should address this for the last time. ?


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

How old is he?


----------



## badmemory

LacyS said:


> I texted back and told him this really needs to resolve. I'm batty! *I also told him that I was posting on here for advice and thought that he should read it.* He said he would this afternoon. And that we should address this for the last time. ?


Ummmm...... not so sure that was a good idea. Bold move though.


----------



## convert

LacyS said:


> I texted back and told him this really needs to resolve. I'm batty! I also told him that I was posting on here for advice and thought that he should read it. He said he would this afternoon. And that we should address this for the last time. ?


well it is good that you two are talking it through.

be carful about saying:
we should address this for the last time....wait did he say this or you?

sounds a little like get over it already.

maybe he is overreacting a little and maybe he should get over it already but sometimes it still takes time and some of us need help through a therapist


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Personal said:


> You do know they weren't married at the time?


You do know "affair" isn't a marriage exclusive term? I wouldn't use it, but that's irrelevant to his opinion nor is it being improperly used.


----------



## ThePheonix

LacyS said:


> I asked BF/Hubby if he knew where our relationship was headed and he told me that he didn't know. He was happy in the moment.


Glad you clarified Lacy. That comment speaks volumes about where he stood and just had to make your feel really really secure about where you stood. I don't care what anybody says, you were justified in believing the relationship had nothing you could hang your hat on. All the time you had a young doctor interested in you. Now he's whining because you where looking for something else. You'd been nuts not to. I hope your old man never goes to Vegas. He'd get cleaned out.
If I ever heard of a case where a guy brought it on himself, this is it.

Remember guys, when you tell a woman you don't know where the relationship is going, she's hearing, "you're just around until something better comes along". That attitude is inconsistent with an exclusive relationship.


----------



## Squeakr

Personal said:


> You do know they weren't married at the time?


Yes, but exit affair is not reserved exclusive to M . You know that, right?? It is used to describe an A that was used to enact the end of the *relationship*, which they were in, so the term applies.


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## LacyS

He is 50, I am 41. Pencil is 51. Hubby is actuallt not at all childish. He is quite the man, to be honest. Ex US Marine. Has Graduate degree. Somehow this is eating him up.


----------



## Q tip

You see, Lacy...

To seek space when things are down is "cheater speak" at TAM. While you cheated on this great man with pencil, you also rationalized it all away in your mind. You will realize today (I hope) that even worse, you cheated on yourself and your own values. 

This is not how to get a guy, by lying and manipulating. But, at 21, it was all you thought you could do. You felt at the end of options, so you played the sex card. Hard.

You did cheat in many respects. You achieved your desired outcome. Kind of like a spoiled brat at 21 eh?

You've far outgrown this and it is in the past. You and your H understand this. But with your actions, the pain he must be in is immense. As big as his love for you.

You could say this was a shotgun wedding of sorts.

You can't undo sex with someone. What you can do is empathize with what H has suffered. Spend time imagining what if this was reversed and he had done this to you. Going down on some girl, sexing her up, no condom, giving her his all. Then give you a call to talk about it to "wake you up". How cruel...

I think, in many ways, you have already atoned. But you're not done. I feel you owe him so much more of yourself. Just keep giving him the life he deserves. Do you deserve it is the question. Just not getting the sense of remorse of what's happened so long ago.

Don't justify it or explain it away. He's suffered quietly over the consequences of your childhood act. He's a guy after all.


----------



## LacyS

Just to clarify to all (receiving PMs about this): Hubby and I dated for about seven weeks before I felt it was exclusive and we became intimate. I was using no birth control at the time, so condoms (code named raincoats) were used. About six or so months into the relationship I decided to go on BC for the benefit of regulating my cycle (terrible cramps/irregular) as well as the added benefit of not using raincoats.


----------



## LacyS

Thank you Q Tip, your posts are helpful. And I am going to continue to be his and only his.


----------



## Yeswecan

LacyS said:


> He texted later and told me that he didn't mean to sound rough, but I asked, and he answered.
> So guys - is this on the mark?


LacyS, your H is texting back. That is in itself a good thing. He cares enough to admit he was not attempting to sound rough. H probably is owning some of this as he accepted what had happened with the ONS and made a conscience decision to marry you. He was able to accept it at that time and took some time to do so. It appears your H will do so again. However, at this time do your best showing emotionally and mentally that the lie about the protection was very very bad. In short, open your soul in your apology.( I have done this with my W for a great wrong that I was subconsciously perpetrating for 20 years.) When I opened my very soul and apologized(totally open) did she see that I was sorry and I was now aware of how I mismanaging a portion of our marriage(not much sex). Let me say, at that very moment, my W became 100% totally mine in all respects. I feel your H will do the same when you open up and no walls he has to traverse to see the true you. Your marriage will rise to a entire different level that only a few have witnessed. 

In your case, the lie and deception. In your conscience you thought you were protecting H by stating you had protection. In hindsight, you mismanaged this portion of your marriage. Apologize like you mean it. Tell you H it has always been him and always will be him. You made a bad choice. Many do for various reason. However, as humans, we can forgive and move on. Your H is communicating. That is 90% of the 100% need to smooth this bump in the road. It will take some time but I complete faith that both of you will feel much more deeply about each other after this is resolved.


----------



## turnera

LacyS said:


> I texted back and told him this really needs to resolve. I'm batty! I also told him that I was posting on here for advice and thought that he should read it. He said he would this afternoon. And that we should address this for the last time. ?


Um, that's quite demanding of you, isn't it? 

Who are you to tell him it must end?


----------



## michzz

A stupid lie at 21 should not be used to whip you forevermore.

You two were not married.

If your marriage has been good for 20 years, your H, who was 10 years older than you at the time, should have figured out that you had full-on sex with all the trimmings.

Time to stop allowing yourself to be whipped over it.

You have acknowledged that it was a huge mistake to lie about it.

Fortunately, neither of you were infected with an STD. No pregnancy resulted.

The immaturity of youth prior to marriage is your excuse. You have not failed him since.

If your h is reading, please realize you have a good thing going. Your insecurities are threatening to wreck that good thing.

Get some therapy so you can move on from it.


----------



## convert

Lacy this is from one of your posts:
"I knew that he was nursing a broken heart from his last relationship (his second broken heart) and that it would take some time."

I think this explains why he was dragging his feet on your relationship.

I do not think it is a bad idea for him to come here....I think

tell him to keep an open mind though


oh yes no such thing as an Ex marine....once a marine always a marine...so i have been told.

good luck



I so wish my (f)WW would be as proactive as you


----------



## LacyS

Also, whether I had the right to date - have sex - with Pencil is of no consequence now, as my actions on this issue have been carried out and cannot be changed. I just wanted to understand where his head was at so I could attempt to help us through it. Y'all have been very helpful. Remember, he will be reading this (smile) Hi Hubby! Wait 'til he sees that I used my real name and initial. Round 2 - just kidding.


----------



## NoChoice

Q tip said:


> You see, Lacy...
> 
> To seek space when things are down is "cheater speak" at TAM. While you cheated on this great man with pencil, you also rationalized it all away in your mind. You will realize today (I hope) that even worse, you cheated on yourself and your own values.
> 
> This is not how to get a guy, by lying and manipulating. But, at 21, it was all you thought you could do. You felt at the end of options, so you played the sex card. Hard.
> 
> You did cheat in many respects. You achieved your desired outcome. Kind of like a spoiled brat at 21 eh?
> 
> You've far outgrown this and it is in the past. You and your H understand this. But with your actions, the pain he must be in is immense. As big as his love for you.
> 
> You could say this was a shotgun wedding of sorts.
> 
> You can't undo sex with someone. What you can do is empathize with what H has suffered. Spend time imagining what if this was reversed and he had done this to you. Going down on some girl, sexing her up, no condom, giving her his all. Then give you a call to talk about it to "wake you up". How cruel...
> 
> I think, in many ways, you have already atoned. But you're not done. I feel you owe him so much more of yourself. Just keep giving him the life he deserves. Do you deserve it is the question. Just not getting the sense of remorse of what's happened so long ago.
> 
> Don't justify it or explain it away. He's suffered quietly over the consequences of your childhood act. He's a guy after all.


This is what I was saying. 
In a very twisted way you actually did something some might consider flattering in that you went WAY outside of your character in a desperate attempt to "win" your H. Do the ends justify the means? It gave you what seems to be 20 years of relative happiness but what will be the final cost. H's pain stems from his deep caring for you. If he didn't care so much it wouldn't hurt so much.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

LacyS said:


> He is 50, I am 41. Pencil is 51. Hubby is actuallt not at all childish. He is quite the man, to be honest. Ex US Marine. Has Graduate degree. Somehow this is eating him up.


I thank him for his service, but So? No offense meant, but I have a graduate degree and I can be childish at times.

Yes, I thought he was in his late 40s or early 50s. You missed the "manopause" comment earlier by Bandit. It was a partial joke, but the more you type, the more I believe this is the case. He's reflecting on his choices as he realizes his mortality. So, he is second guessing some of his choices. 

Marriage counseling.


----------



## turnera

Q tip said:


> You see, Lacy...
> 
> To seek space when things are down is "cheater speak" at TAM. While you cheated on this great man with pencil, you also rationalized it all away in your mind. You will realize today (I hope) that even worse, you cheated on yourself and your own values.
> 
> This is not how to get a guy, by lying and manipulating. But, at 21, it was all you thought you could do. You felt at the end of options, so you played the sex card. Hard.
> 
> You did cheat in many respects. You achieved your desired outcome. Kind of like a spoiled brat at 21 eh?


Actually, she WAS 21, or thereabouts. What she did then, and how she's handled herself for the next 20 years, need to be balanced. The brain's not done developing - and making smarter choices - until about age 25, which is why I always advise not to marry until 25. You're still making decisions more on instinct and feeling than on logic.


----------



## turnera

LacyS said:


> Wait 'til he sees that I used my real name and initial. Round 2 - just kidding.


Starting to sound like he has an issue with anger...?


----------



## Yeswecan

turnera said:


> Starting to sound like he has an issue with anger...?


I think everyone does to a degree.


----------



## convert

NoChoice said:


> This is what I was saying.
> In a very twisted way you actually did something some might consider flattering in that you went WAY outside of your character in a desperate attempt to "win" your H. Do the ends justify the means? It gave you what seems to be 20 years of relative happiness but what will be the final cost. H's pain stems from his deep caring for you. If he didn't care so much it wouldn't hurt so much.


Very good point..
I had not thought of this.....Interesting

Lacy can you give your thoughts on this?


yes as childish as some posters believe OP's husband is, what if he didn't care at all; that would speak volumes too.


----------



## Yeswecan

NoChoice said:


> This is what I was saying.
> In a very twisted way you actually did something some might consider flattering in that you went WAY outside of your character in a desperate attempt to "win" your H. Do the ends justify the means? It gave you what seems to be 20 years of relative happiness but what will be the final cost. H's pain stems from his deep caring for you. If he didn't care so much it wouldn't hurt so much.


Well...it was very twisted but none-the-less it got his attention.


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## LacyS

Guys, I am sitting here crying. He just called and was so sweet. Asked if I wanted him to bring lunch (my favorite). I am so tense that upon hearing this, I must have had emotion in my voice because he asked what was the matter. I told him that I've been so worried he would not love me anymore and that he would find someone else. He told that he couldn't imagine that because he is my knight in shining armor and I was his girl. He said I need to jump on the white horse and snuggle up behind him and we'll ride to the end of the road ('til death we part?) I am just sobbing. Happy tears. 
I asked him if he could forgive this as God requires and he said - If I can't forgive you then I don't deserve you. cant type anymore now


----------



## Yeswecan

lacys said:


> guys, i am sitting here crying. He just called and was so sweet. Asked if i wanted him to bring lunch (my favorite). I am so tense that upon hearing this, i must have had emotion in my voice because he asked what was the matter. I told him that i've been so worried he would not love me anymore and that he would find someone else. He told that he couldn't imagine that because he is my knight in shining armor and i was his girl. He said i need to jump on the white horse and snuggle up behind him and we'll ride to the end of the road ('til death we part?) i am just sobbing. Happy tears.
> I asked him if he could forgive this as god requires and he said - if i can't forgive you then i don't deserve you. Cant type anymore now


*You have just reached that level in your marriage few get to experience. Embrace it! *


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## phillybeffandswiss

Interesting, sounds like YOU made more of it than he did. Talk it out, get to the root of the problem, a counselor provides a neutral party and then you both move on.


----------



## tulsy

LacyS said:


> ....
> In terms of being broken up, the truth is that *when I told him that I needed my space, it was to open the door for the other guy who was beginning to show interest in me and I became interested in him*. I have to be honest here,* it wasn't a severe all ties breakup*. My boyfriend/hubby was calling every day or every other day, but by this time, I was being mean to him. Doing the 180, as y'all say. Perhaps that made him more interested. Looking back now, my BF/Hubby was coming on so strong, it made me resentful. It made the OM more interesting. Could BF/Hubby have dated other people with my approval. I don't know. My mind had suddenly gone elsewhere. The ONS guy and I had one more lunch date the following week and, really, there was no chemistry. As much as I wanted there to be. None.
> By this time, BF/Hubby had started to disappear from the scene. He wasn't calling anymore. I eventually called him early on a Saturday morning and we began to iron things out.
> The reason, as already stated, that I told him that a condom was used was because of being afraid he would think about STDs. I never, I mean NEVER thought the other would hurt him...


So you're dating someone.
After a couple months, you have sex.
You date exclusively for 2 years, having protected sex. 
Then someone new comes along.
New person is hot, and they are hitting on you.
You like the new person, and your current boyfriend notices and he isn't impressed.
You want to sleep with the new guy.
You tell current boyfriend you need space, but secretly it's so you can go out with the new guy.
Your boyfriend doesn't know this.
Your boyfriend loves you, and continues to call you every day, and you continue to talk to him and see him, but you are giving him the cold shoulder.
Meanwhile, behind your boyfriends back, you are chatting up the new hot guy.
Your boyfriend only calls you every other day, trying to give you more space, but is really going out of his way to make the relationship good.
You resent him pursuing you so much (your words) because you are only interested in the new guy now.
Still, you don't sever ties and actually break-up with the boyfriend because you want to get revenge (for what, exactly? what did he do to deserve revenge, when you admit NOW that you only asked for more space so you could bang the new guy?)
After 3 weeks of treating your boyfriend like crap, he calls you up to make plan that night.
You tell him you're busy.
He asks what you're up to, and you tell him you're going out with that guy...the one he warned you about.
He loses it...can't believe you're: a) seeing other people b) that guy
You go out with other guy, bang him that night, without protection.
The next day, your boyfriend calls you wondering what exactly happened on your date.
You tell him you want to tell him in person, so you can really hurt him (you admit you wanted revenge?..for what?)
He comes over and you tell him you fawked the other guy.
His world collapses, he goes white, he crys, he punches his windshield.
He leaves and you are happy because you did exactly what you wanted, you got revenge.

THIS IS THE ACTUAL BREAKUP, NOT BEFORE!

You date the new guy for the next week, but realize the spark just isn't there.
Meanwhile, your ex, who you resented for reaching out before, hasn't even called you in a week.
You are starting to miss your ex, and realize that he is a better guy than the new guy.
You stop seeing the new guy, and reach out to the guy you devastated.
He's hurt, but still loves you, so he corresponds back.
You assure him you used protection with the ONS guy, because you want him back and you know by lying you may have a chance.
As disturbing as it was what you did, he think's you may have realized how much you love him after the fact, so he feels at least you love him more than the other guy.
He sweeps the pain of betrayal under the rug and starts seeing you again.

From time to time he thinks back to what happened, but he lets it go because it was long ago and you made a mistake one night, before realizing how much you love him.

20 plus years later, you nonchalantly blurt out that you chose to abandon protected sex years ago. 
He can't believe it.
The rug is now gone, and he finally has to deal with with what you did.
He is questioning how much is true, since you lied for all these years.
He is probably questioning how long you and the other guy were sleeping together, when he thought you were still dating.

*He is only now coming to terms with the fact that, the worst thing that has ever happened to him, is something that you did to him, purposely.*

Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is how it appears to me. You started by making it sound like you did this to get back at him for not committing to you, but you guys were dating exclusively for 2 years, which is a commitment.

How old were you both when this happened?
If you were actually looking for more of a commitment (which is a lie because you admit later you were just out to bang the new guy), what level of commitment were you looking for? Marriage?

Please get into couple counselling and try to understand how the guy feels. I wish you the best, moving forward.

People who have said that they were broken up, so it's all fair...after reading all the facts, do you still believe they were actually broken up?
Do you believe she was actually infatuated with someone new, and just wanted to string her boyfriend along?
I mean, she admits that she really wanted to hurt him.

People who feel the break-up doesn't need to be formal, do you think that after 2 years, you have every right to just say you want more time to yourself, and then you are justified in sleeping with someone new? Even while stringing along the other person, allowing them to fight for your time, answering there calls, getting together from time to time?

----------------------------------------------------

So I've been dating my girlfriend for 2 years. Suppose there is a new hot chick at work who flirts with me. My girlfriend is not impressed, but I'm getting aroused. I tell my girlfriend I need some space, and she's upset, but is willing to do whatever, while I figure out what I want to to about us moving forward.
So my girlfriend calls me every day, and I talk to her, but I sorta brush her off and always make like I'm busy. Meanwhile, she doesn't know I'm checking the new chick.
A few weeks later, my girlfriend asks if I want to go out dancing, so I tell her I have plans. She asks, with who. I tell her it's hottie, and she freaks out. I say it's not like that, we're just going out for a drink, blah blah blah, I let her go.
So I go out with hottie and bang her.
The next day my girlfriend call me and asks begrudgingly how my date went (because she's been up all night crying). So I tell her I fawked hottie. She starts bawling on the phone, I say what, we were on a break, and she says since when?
So she hangs up and I don't hear from her.
I continue to see hottie for a week, but she's a real ditz, and I miss my ex, who's not calling me anymore.
I haven't heard from her in a week, so I call her and she's cold, but she talks to me.
She agrees to see me and I told her I'm done with hottie.
I tell her I used protection with her and that it wasn't that good, she smelt bad, etc (which is a lie, but I want to get back with her). We eventually work things out and get back together. I love her and she never stopped loving me. We eventually get married.

Is this all cool, since I feel like we were pretty much over? Even though we were only over because I wanted to bang the new chick?

I don't think this is acceptable, and I don't think there is a pass to go screw someone else. I don't think there was a real breakup until I decided there was one, AFTER I HAD SEX WITH NEW HOTTIE.

Just my opinion.
I think that because it was rugswept, gaslit, and TT'd, he's only really dealing with it now. And he's not really dealing with it if he's not talking about it.

For people who say "get over it"...he's struggling with that. He needs help. They should get help for this...marriage counselling.


----------



## tulsy

LacyS said:


> Guys, I am sitting here crying. He just called and was so sweet. Asked if I wanted him to bring lunch (my favorite). I am so tense that upon hearing this, I must have had emotion in my voice because he asked what was the matter. I told him that I've been so worried he would not love me anymore and that he would find someone else. He told that he couldn't imagine that because he is my knight in shining armor and I was his girl. He said I need to jump on the white horse and snuggle up behind him and we'll ride to the end of the road ('til death we part?) I am just sobbing. Happy tears.
> I asked him if he could forgive this as God requires and he said - If I can't forgive you then I don't deserve you. cant type anymore now


This is good news.


----------



## LacyS

Tulsy, thanks, your post is revealing. By showing if the shoe was on the other foot. He'll be here about noon. I'm gonna fix up for him now. Promise to return as he'll want to read these posts I think.


----------



## hookares

OP, are there any kids that resulted from this fiasco?
If so, how can your "true love" be sure he's the father?
You didn't just lie once. You lied for twenty years.


----------



## Q tip

turnera said:


> Starting to sound like he has an issue with anger...?


Actually, no. Marines are trained to work the problem, not the emotions. Those traits and others like leadership kept after life in the Corps.


----------



## Graywolf2

LacyS said:


> Just to clarify to all (receiving PMs about this): Hubby and I dated for about seven weeks before I felt it was exclusive and we became intimate. I was using no birth control at the time, so condoms (code named raincoats) were used. About six or so months into the relationship I decided to go on BC for the benefit of regulating my cycle (terrible cramps/irregular) as well as the added benefit of not using raincoats.


*The OM offered to use a condom but you chose not to.*



LacyS said:


> The guy did offer, but I told him that "I was on something (meaning birth control)" so the choice was mine.


*It’s another line you crossed on the first date that you didn't have to. It took your husband seven weeks and he had to use condoms.

The OM was "sponge-worthy" on the first date.*


*******************************************************

*Sponge-worthy:

A phrase coined by Elaine on the TV show "Seinfeld." Refers to Elaine's favorite kind of birth control that was ultimately taken off the market. Elaine bought all the remaining stock she could get her hands on and then hoarded her stash of sponges. 

She defined her dates as being "sponge-worthy" or not.

If he was worth using one of her hoarded sponges then he was sponge-worthy. If not he had to use a condom.

Jerry- I heard you went out with Bob last night. Was he sponge-worthy? 
Elaine- VERY sponge-worthy! 

Or alternate response from Elaine-I don't waste my sponges on just anybody. He has to be sponge worthy, Jerry!*


----------



## NoChoice

Maybe the ends will justify the means from the sound of things and that, in this case, is good since there have been so many happy years come out of it.

Some advice though for what it's worth...Get the OM out of your lives TOTALLY. Don't think about him, talk about him, Facebook him, nothing. He has served his purpose now let him, and the pain he caused, go, once and for all. Then it's just you two "till death do you part".


----------



## LacyS

Hookares, we have two daughters. And he can DNA test until the cows come home and then DNA the cows. These girls are 100% his, look like him, have his gorgeous blue eyes. Yep, no problem there. Promise. I didn't lie for 20 years about everything, just one thing.


----------



## Q tip

LacyS said:


> Guys, I am sitting here crying. He just called and was so sweet. Asked if I wanted him to bring lunch (my favorite). I am so tense that upon hearing this, I must have had emotion in my voice because he asked what was the matter. I told him that I've been so worried he would not love me anymore and that he would find someone else. He told that he couldn't imagine that because he is my knight in shining armor and I was his girl. He said I need to jump on the white horse and snuggle up behind him and we'll ride to the end of the road ('til death we part?) I am just sobbing. Happy tears.
> I asked him if he could forgive this as God requires and he said - If I can't forgive you then I don't deserve you. cant type anymore now


Cherish that man of yours...


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Q tip said:


> Actually, no. Marines are trained to work the problem, not the emotions. Those traits and others like leadership kept after life in the Corps.


Dude don't start this argument. We have enough news stories, about every profession, to know you can't make a blanket equivocation like this one.


----------



## Q tip

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Dude don't start this argument. We have enough news stories, about every profession, to know you can't make a blanket equivocation like this one.


Just laying in a well deserved compliment to a brother. The training happens to be true. Don't take it so hard...


----------



## drifting on

LacyS

I have read only your posts from page one and will respond to your question. To everyone everything is different regarding infidelity. I will share my perspective and maybe you will see similarities to your story. My WW had an affair while you had a one night stand. My WW and I dated for months before intimacy. This was hurdle number one for me. You waited months for intimacy with your husband, but then gave away yourself on the first date. This has caused such sadness and rage to me. How does she just give away the most beautiful gift she can give, herself? My WW also had unprotected sex. Hurdle number two. This caused me many problems from feeling emasculated to being suicidal. How could she allow OM to to leave himself in her? I still struggle with this. It has brought thoughts of divorce that I may never get over this aspect of her affair. 

My WW attempted to trickle truth also, maybe she thought she was protecting me. I can only say it caused more pain. On day two when WW confessed she confessed all. Yours took twenty years. That level of deception would be in itself too much for me to overcome. We are in R now and have struggled as of late, but I feel turning the corner after my recent health scare. Each part of the ONS has to be dissected and communicated in my opinion. Each part of the ONS will impact your husband. Some impacts will resonate more difficult than others. So in my opinion you have to talk from the beginning and dissect the entire ONS for him to heal. This is hard work and very trying to say the least. I wish you good luck and peace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## larry.gray

Yeswecan said:


> What you have said here is your H was plan B. No one wants to be plan B.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't think that's accurate. She tried the other dude out and didn't like what she found. No indication that the other dude dumped her. It's only a plan B if she wanted the other dude and couldn't get him.


----------



## changedbeliefs

This whole situation is ludicrous. TWO YEARS he wouldn't commit, so you broke it off, banged another guy, felt the need to tell the ex, at which point he goes off, smashes a car windshield, yet you decided not only to confess the details of a ONS you're MORE than entitled to, but also to then marry this guy anyway.

Let me sum this up: your husband considers you PROPERTY. Some other got to have sex with you, and he reacted by flipping his game and doing whatever it took to convince you he was marriage material. At that point, he "won" vs. the other guy, he got you, yay him. But the battle continues to rage, he asks you more and more about the ONS because he needs to know EXACTLY whether or not he has one-upped this guy, on every level. Hearing your latest admission (*) is too much for him, you're like used goods now. I don't mean to be extreme, or accusatory, but in 100% honesty, if I heard this guy beat you, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

* Can we please all get off our moral high horses for a minute, and admit that _people tell little white lies all the damn time, and do so specifically in order to spare people's feelings._ Frankly, in 99% of cases, we consider it a completely empathetic thing to do. Moreover, NORMAL people usually even know when they're being lied TO, and they accept it. Insert the "do I look fat in these jeans" example. The fact that she lied about this little detail is perfectly ok, that he didn't just accept it indicates a bit of sociopathy, IMO, and that he badgered her 20 years later displays paranoia and an inability to cope.


----------



## treyvion

italianjob said:


> I have no symphathy for the OP of this thread...
> 
> In the end what happened was:
> 
> - 20 years or so ago the OP was going steady with her future H, but she was flattered by the attention of another guy. Her then BF wasn't really longing to get married, and the new guy was a doctor, so he could be a good candidate even long term.
> - She devised the classic plan to keep the old and try the new, telling her bf she "needed space" (in my experience and from what I've seen happen to friends, when a girl/woman uses this expression it always means "I have a new guy to try"). This course of action is especially designed to be ambiguous enough to let the user technically get to bang someone else claiming it's not cheating, but not really ending the previous relationship, so if the SO is gullible enough you can step back in.
> - The tryout didn't turn out good, maybe it was the "pencil" factor, maybe the other guy just wanted to have some fun and had no intention to get married to the OP, but luckily for her her BF and future H was gullible enough and proceeded to rug sweep.
> - New details about the episode triggered H, who maybe is re evaluating the succession of events to come to a conclusion similar to mine, and is reading differently the last 20 years or so.
> 
> 
> *IMO*, there is infidelity in this thread, and is far worse than standard cheating, because of the amount of premeditation and deception involved.


The other guy who is banging the girl friend, at least initially always came in just to have "some fun". So when he tosses her back, she can feel crappy but treat the real bf or husband like crap to make up for it.

How they play that game.


----------



## TRy

soccermom2three said:


> I agree. He didn't have to marry her. I think he's enjoyed lording this ONS over her, bringing it up again and again over a 20 year period. It gives him some kind of twisted power. That's why I think he needs to talk to a therapist.


 One problem with what you just said. The OP has admitted that the husband has hardly brought it up over the last 20 years. The issue was that she lied to him about using a condom and just admitted that lie to him. I am amazed at how many posters keep projecting false accusations on to the husband that the OP never made, and then have strong opinions based on these false projections.


----------



## larry.gray

Personal said:


> If they were married at the time I could understand the apoplexy. Since they weren't married and he chose to marry her anyway, his reaction 20 years later is a bit overwrought.


I reject your premise.

You think equality means both genders embracing NSA sex with whomever.

How about instead of men dumping their standards to match women who don't seem to care how many women came before, we go the other way? How about women raise theirs and not condone men behaving this way?

FWIW, my wife is an outlier. She's far more concerned about history than I am.


----------



## larry.gray

LacyS said:


> I texted back and told him this really needs to resolve. I'm batty! I also told him that I was posting on here for advice and thought that he should read it. He said he would this afternoon. And that we should address this for the last time. ?


I would say your biggest risk are those few posters who are bashing your husband's feelings. I suggest you post that they should quit.

If they ignore that, hit the little red triangle and report them. The moderators here are rather stern about people who ignore requests to stop by the OP.


----------



## larry.gray

changedbeliefs said:


> * Can we please all get off our moral high horses for a minute, and admit that _people tell little white lies all the damn time, and do so specifically in order to spare people's feelings._ Frankly, in 99% of cases, we consider it a completely empathetic thing to do. Moreover, NORMAL people usually even know when they're being lied TO, and they accept it.


Why do I have this strong suspicion that those exact thoughts were going through you mind as you were justifying your cheating on your wife? Each one was a "this isn't too bad" white lie as you slip down the slippery slop to a full blown affair.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Q tip said:


> Don't take it so hard...


LOL. You corrected Turnera not me. Right back at you.


> Can we please all get off our moral high horses for a minute, and admit that people tell little white lies all the damn time, and do so specifically in order to spare people's feelings. Frankly, in 99% of cases, we consider it a completely empathetic thing to do. Moreover, NORMAL people usually even know when they're being lied TO, and they accept it.


There is no we. I said I understood why he was frustrated. Good lord people are trotting the false equivocations out to day. No, "you aren't fat" is not the same as, "I had revenge sex and lied about it."

Oh and I said I didn't see a problem with the sex, it was the lie that caused the problem. Yes, some lies are worse than others. Trying to imply they are all the same is hilarious.


----------



## TRy

ThePheonix said:


> Remember guys, when you tell a woman you don't know where the relationship is going, she's hearing, "you're just around until something better comes along". That attitude is inconsistent with an exclusive relationship.


 Wanting to wait to commit to marriage is not at all "inconsistent with an exclusive relationship". In almost every exclusive relationship that leads to marriage, there is usually one party, often the female, that wants to commit to marriage before the other party. You saying that one party taking a few month longer than the other to commit to marriage, gives one of the parties the right to have sex with others without telling the person that they are in the exclusive relationship with that they were no longer exclusive is just ridiculous.


----------



## Yeswecan

larry.gray said:


> I don't think that's accurate. She tried the other dude out and didn't like what she found. No indication that the other dude dumped her. It's only a plan B if she wanted the other dude and couldn't get him.


Your explanation, I agree!


----------



## Forest

LacyS said:


> Hookares, we have two daughters. And he can DNA test until the cows come home and then DNA the cows. These girls are 100% his, look like him, have his gorgeous blue eyes. Yep, no problem there. Promise. I didn't lie for 20 years about everything, just one thing.


I curious about some things. You've said the OM was 31, you were 21, and on birth control.
You said you married husband 10 months later. When did these kids come along?


----------



## Q tip

I think OP/H are reaching a deeper understanding. 

Maybe we should stop the thundering herd on her thread now...


----------



## Q tip

Forest said:


> I curious about some things. You've said the OM was 31, you were 21, and on birth control.
> You said you married husband 10 months later. When did these kids come along?


.???? Non sequitur


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Q tip said:


> I think OP/H are reaching a deeper understanding.
> 
> Maybe we should stop the thundering herd on her thread now...


Oh come on, we just got started. We have the "property" and "abuser" comment, we just need one more to make it a complete mess.


----------



## Yeswecan

Q tip said:


> I think OP/H are reaching a deeper understanding.
> 
> Maybe we should stop the thundering herd on her thread now...


Bingo.....


----------



## larry.gray

Q tip said:


> .???? Non sequitur


It does make one curious. Daughter #1 can't be too much younger than the marriage. She posted previously that her daughter "was visiting" in another post so she's at least 18.


----------



## changedbeliefs

larry.gray said:


> Why do I have this strong suspicion that those exact thoughts were going through you mind as you were justifying your cheating on your wife? Each one was a "this isn't too bad" white lie as you slip down the slippery slop to a full blown affair.


This leap....I mean...it's really sad...

My guess? Your "strong suspicions" about what happened in my life, gleaned from a handful of posts on a forum, are probably based on the fact that you're still damaged and just want to project your insecurities and superiority complex on other obvious, seemingly inferior, targets? I have never justified what I did, EVER (unless, of course, you - like most BS - hear a WS say even one negative comment about their spouse or marriage, and go , "see?!?!?!? justifying!!!"), and assuming "full blown affair" amounts to, at the very least, sex, and for some extended period of time, and/or with some regularity, sorry to disappoint...well, I didn't do that, either. You can cry "cheater's script" all you want, but nobody's pants so much as came unbuttoned in my case, and it lasted all of a few weeks.

It's ok, though, if it really helps you cope to just think that all WS are just lying, morally bankrupt, cowardly, bottom-feeding beings, who - when trying to give someone honest advice - are actually surreptitously pushing their own agenda of deceit, hey....have at it.


----------



## TRy

LacyS said:


> Guys, I am sitting here crying. He just called and was so sweet. Asked if I wanted him to bring lunch (my favorite). I am so tense that upon hearing this, I must have had emotion in my voice because he asked what was the matter. I told him that I've been so worried he would not love me anymore and that he would find someone else. He told that he couldn't imagine that because he is my knight in shining armor and I was his girl. He said I need to jump on the white horse and snuggle up behind him and we'll ride to the end of the road ('til death we part?) I am just sobbing. Happy tears.
> I asked him if he could forgive this as God requires and he said - If I can't forgive you then I don't deserve you. cant type anymore now


 Your husband does not sound like the horrible childish ogre that some posters have tried to portray him as. He sounds like a good man that loves his wife that was hurt by her initial cheating and then by the recent discovery of the lie. When he learned of the lie he cried, and the OP posted here to learn why. That is all there is to it.

@ the OP: you sound like a good person that did something that you regret 20 years ago. Please use this time to finally fully admit to your husband that you are sorry for what you did 20 years ago with no excuses. He sounds like a great guy that loves you so he will want to forgive and move on. Let him be able to forgive everything by dropping your rationalizations for your cheating and lying. I wish you and your husband the best.


----------



## Q tip

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Oh come on, we just got started. We have the "property" and "abuser" comment, we just need one more to make it a complete mess.


:rofl: :lol: :rofl:

True, no mention of zombies, chocolate or midgets yet...


----------



## convert

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Oh come on, we just got started. We have the "property" and "abuser" comment, we just need one more to make it a complete mess.


good point most of those comments from posters that don't read the whole thread or at least all the Post made by the OP.

they are just lazy and only post comments based on a few post they have read and offer no real constructive help


----------



## warlock07

LacyS, your projection of your insecurity on your husband is making these people abuse him with half facts. He was disappointed with the news. He will need a few days to reconcile to the fact and get back to normal. People are allowed to get upset.


----------



## Chaparral

This is just like what happened to me in many ways. We didn't end up married but stayed together two more years.

The thing is,.after thirty years,.driving home from work one day on a one lane country road, I got to thinking about the time my long term girl friend cheated and said we should both also see other people. She never admitted to cheating but I was sure she did.

The thing is, just thinking about it triggered me so badly it was just like being there. I wondered if I was having a heart attack,lol, but I guess it was a panic attack. That's how I ended up here.

In Lacy's case, I think the big thing for her husband was that it triggered him to the nightmare of losing her to another man many years ago. I believe he felt just like he did when she carried his stuff out to the car. I know how that hurts.

However, it made him realize that he was driving her away from him, he reconsidered and twenty years and two daughters later prove that good things can result from bad decisions. There may even have been some "outside" help from above.

Being a good Chrstian man, I think he will expel this episode and realize everything has turned out as it should.

Prayers for you and your family.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

changedbeliefs said:


> This leap....I mean...it's really sad...
> 
> My guess? Your "strong suspicions" about what happened in my life, gleaned from a handful of posts on a forum, are probably based on the fact that you're still damaged and just want to project your insecurities and superiority complex on other obvious, seemingly inferior, targets? I have never justified what I did, EVER (unless, of course, you - like most BS - hear a WS say even one negative comment about their spouse or marriage, and go , "see?!?!?!? justifying!!!"), and assuming "full blown affair" amounts to, at the very least, sex, and for some extended period of time, and/or with some regularity, sorry to disappoint...well, I didn't do that, either. You can cry "cheater's script" all you want, but nobody's pants so much as came unbuttoned in my case, and it lasted all of a few weeks.
> 
> It's ok, though, if it really helps you cope to just think that all WS are just lying, morally bankrupt, cowardly, bottom-feeding beings, who - when trying to give someone honest advice - are actually surreptitously pushing their own agenda of deceit, hey....have at it.


.....and there it is ironic projection. I'm done with my portion of the derail.

Hey Lacy, I'll be back to see what your husband has to add. If he posts of course.

Good luck.


----------



## warlock07

Now people are fighting on another on semantics.

This thread has become so stupid that LacyS's husband will divorce her for taking advice here.. /s


----------



## larry.gray

changedbeliefs said:


> It's ok, though, if it really helps you cope to just think that all WS are just lying, morally bankrupt, cowardly, bottom-feeding beings, who - when trying to give someone honest advice - are actually surreptitously pushing their own agenda of deceit, hey....have at it.


I think you're confusing me with somebody else. Does that assumption of who I am sit with this?

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/1581303-post6172.html


----------



## convert

changedbeliefs said:


> This leap....I mean...it's really sad...
> 
> My guess? Your "strong suspicions" about what happened in my life, gleaned from a handful of posts on a forum, are probably based on the fact that you're still damaged and just want to project your insecurities and superiority complex on other obvious, seemingly inferior, targets? I have never justified what I did, EVER (unless, of course, you - like most BS - hear a WS say even one negative comment about their spouse or marriage, and go , "see?!?!?!? justifying!!!"), and assuming "full blown affair" amounts to, at the very least, sex, and for some extended period of time, and/or with some regularity, sorry to disappoint...well, I didn't do that, either. You can cry "cheater's script" all you want, but nobody's pants so much as came unbuttoned in my case, and it lasted all of a few weeks.
> 
> It's ok, though, if it really helps you cope to just think that all WS are just lying, morally bankrupt, cowardly, bottom-feeding beings, who - when trying to give someone honest advice - are actually surreptitously pushing their own agenda of deceit, hey....have at it.



But you said yourself that you were a wayward spouse

your justification of what you did is coming through by projecting on your own post in your own words, you just don't see it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

warlock07 said:


> Now people are fighting on another on semantics.
> 
> This thread has become so stupid that LacyS's husband will divorce her for taking advice here.. /s


You must have skimmed, semantics occurred much earlier.


----------



## Yeswecan

Q tip said:


> :rofl: :lol: :rofl:
> 
> True, no mention of zombies, chocolate or midgets yet...


That is chapter 2. Stick with the program.


----------



## Q tip

warlock07 said:


> Now people are fighting on another on semantics.
> 
> This thread has become so stupid that LacyS's husband will divorce her for taking advice here.. /s


She needs to stop reading at the point her hubbie spoke of the white horse...


----------



## Vorlon

To the OP, 

From your posts I can see why he would be upset. Does that make you wrong or bad because of the ONS? No the ONS was not from your perspective so you can let that go. Should you have told the truth the whole truth at the time...in hind site yes. Hard Lesson right. No one is perfect.

I think from your description of your husband that you are both truly blessed to have each other. Yes you both need to talk it out once and for all and then put it away for good.

To your hubby... I can understand his reaction. In his eyes and heart you were his and his alone. No he wasn't ready to commit to marriage yet because to him marriage is a sacred, once in a lifetime commitment to the one true love of his life. Not just a piece of paper or a ceremony. He did not agree with the split. Facts are not relevant here as he was thinking with his heart. He seems to be very much a full blown romantic who is committed to living his faith. I applaud that BTW. 

Given how he felt and from his perspective he based his decision to forgive you the ONS on what you told him. So when the whole truth came out his decision at the time was based on a falsehood. So for him the decision to marry you even with a 20 yr marriage and every other fact of life surrounding what happened then and now came into question. 

He needed to process all that all over again. He needed to reevaluate his decision to marry you back then. It was unsettling and it hurt to have made the biggest commitment of his life on false information no mater how small. The fact that he thought the condom separated you from the OMs seed might have been the one thing that aloud him to forgive and commit to you back then. It could have had any number of different meanings to him and ultimately his reasoning and decisions but they had to be reworked in his heart and brain. 

From the sound of your last post I would say he is or has come to terms with this to some degree. Have faith in him, his love for you and god. I think you were brave to come here and pour our heart out and not get defensive. Some folks here can be brutal and its because they are or have been in such pain. It bleeds over to others. 

Your coming here and your attitude shows at least to me a honest loving soul that I believe your husband would never abandon. I don't know your husband and only have your description but if he is half the man you describe then you two will work this out. Nobody is perfect...you both know people make mistakes and its what you do about it after you make them that counts. God has already forgiven you. How can your husband not to the same. It doesn't mean that he doesn't have strong emotions about it. If he didn't care so much then I would be more worried. But that's just me. )


----------



## snerg

tulsy said:


> So you're dating someone.
> After a couple months, you have sex.
> You date exclusively for 2 years, having protected sex.
> Then someone new comes along.
> New person is hot, and they are hitting on you.
> You like the new person, and your current boyfriend notices and he isn't impressed.
> You want to sleep with the new guy.
> You tell current boyfriend you need space, but secretly it's so you can go out with the new guy.
> Your boyfriend doesn't know this.
> Your boyfriend loves you, and continues to call you every day, and you continue to talk to him and see him, but you are giving him the cold shoulder.
> Meanwhile, behind your boyfriends back, you are chatting up the new hot guy.
> Your boyfriend only calls you every other day, trying to give you more space, but is really going out of his way to make the relationship good.
> You resent him pursuing you so much (your words) because you are only interested in the new guy now.
> Still, you don't sever ties and actually break-up with the boyfriend because you want to get revenge (for what, exactly? what did he do to deserve revenge, when you admit NOW that you only asked for more space so you could bang the new guy?)
> After 3 weeks of treating your boyfriend like crap, he calls you up to make plan that night.
> You tell him you're busy.
> He asks what you're up to, and you tell him you're going out with that guy...the one he warned you about.
> He loses it...can't believe you're: a) seeing other people b) that guy
> You go out with other guy, bang him that night, without protection.
> The next day, your boyfriend calls you wondering what exactly happened on your date.
> You tell him you want to tell him in person, so you can really hurt him (you admit you wanted revenge?..for what?)
> He comes over and you tell him you fawked the other guy.
> His world collapses, he goes white, he crys, he punches his windshield.
> He leaves and you are happy because you did exactly what you wanted, you got revenge.
> 
> THIS IS THE ACTUAL BREAKUP, NOT BEFORE!
> 
> You date the new guy for the next week, but realize the spark just isn't there.
> Meanwhile, your ex, who you resented for reaching out before, hasn't even called you in a week.
> You are starting to miss your ex, and realize that he is a better guy than the new guy.
> You stop seeing the new guy, and reach out to the guy you devastated.
> He's hurt, but still loves you, so he corresponds back.
> You assure him you used protection with the ONS guy, because you want him back and you know by lying you may have a chance.
> As disturbing as it was what you did, he think's you may have realized how much you love him after the fact, so he feels at least you love him more than the other guy.
> He sweeps the pain of betrayal under the rug and starts seeing you again.
> 
> From time to time he thinks back to what happened, but he lets it go because it was long ago and you made a mistake one night, before realizing how much you love him.
> 
> 20 plus years later, you nonchalantly blurt out that you chose to abandon protected sex years ago.
> He can't believe it.
> The rug is now gone, and he finally has to deal with with what you did.
> He is questioning how much is true, since you lied for all these years.
> He is probably questioning how long you and the other guy were sleeping together, when he thought you were still dating.
> 
> *He is only now coming to terms with the fact that, the worst thing that has ever happened to him, is something that you did to him, purposely.*
> 
> Please correct me if I am wrong, but this is how it appears to me. You started by making it sound like you did this to get back at him for not committing to you, but you guys were dating exclusively for 2 years, which is a commitment.
> 
> How old were you both when this happened?
> If you were actually looking for more of a commitment (which is a lie because you admit later you were just out to bang the new guy), what level of commitment were you looking for? Marriage?
> 
> Please get into couple counselling and try to understand how the guy feels. I wish you the best, moving forward.
> 
> People who have said that they were broken up, so it's all fair...after reading all the facts, do you still believe they were actually broken up?
> Do you believe she was actually infatuated with someone new, and just wanted to string her boyfriend along?
> I mean, she admits that she really wanted to hurt him.
> 
> People who feel the break-up doesn't need to be formal, do you think that after 2 years, you have every right to just say you want more time to yourself, and then you are justified in sleeping with someone new? Even while stringing along the other person, allowing them to fight for your time, answering there calls, getting together from time to time?
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------
> 
> So I've been dating my girlfriend for 2 years. Suppose there is a new hot chick at work who flirts with me. My girlfriend is not impressed, but I'm getting aroused. I tell my girlfriend I need some space, and she's upset, but is willing to do whatever, while I figure out what I want to to about us moving forward.
> So my girlfriend calls me every day, and I talk to her, but I sorta brush her off and always make like I'm busy. Meanwhile, she doesn't know I'm checking the new chick.
> A few weeks later, my girlfriend asks if I want to go out dancing, so I tell her I have plans. She asks, with who. I tell her it's hottie, and she freaks out. I say it's not like that, we're just going out for a drink, blah blah blah, I let her go.
> So I go out with hottie and bang her.
> The next day my girlfriend call me and asks begrudgingly how my date went (because she's been up all night crying). So I tell her I fawked hottie. She starts bawling on the phone, I say what, we were on a break, and she says since when?
> So she hangs up and I don't hear from her.
> I continue to see hottie for a week, but she's a real ditz, and I miss my ex, who's not calling me anymore.
> I haven't heard from her in a week, so I call her and she's cold, but she talks to me.
> She agrees to see me and I told her I'm done with hottie.
> I tell her I used protection with her and that it wasn't that good, she smelt bad, etc (which is a lie, but I want to get back with her). We eventually work things out and get back together. I love her and she never stopped loving me. We eventually get married.
> 
> Is this all cool, since I feel like we were pretty much over? Even though we were only over because I wanted to bang the new chick?
> 
> I don't think this is acceptable, and I don't think there is a pass to go screw someone else. I don't think there was a real breakup until I decided there was one, AFTER I HAD SEX WITH NEW HOTTIE.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> I think that because it was rugswept, gaslit, and TT'd, he's only really dealing with it now. And he's not really dealing with it if he's not talking about it.
> 
> For people who say "get over it"...he's struggling with that. He needs help. They should get help for this...marriage counselling.



Wow.

Extremely insightful.

LacyS - I see you have commented on this (to see how the shoe would be on the other foot) - How accurate is tulsy in the post about you?

Also what was the revenge for (no committing)?


----------



## larry.gray

larry.gray said:


> I would say your biggest risk are those few posters who are bashing your husband's feelings. I suggest you post that they should quit.
> 
> If they ignore that, hit the little red triangle and report them. The moderators here are rather stern about people who ignore requests to stop by the OP.


I'll follow up to add - It matters not if some on the internet think her husband is justified in those feelings or not. Lacy cares about her husband, loves her husband, doesn't want to lose him or have him consider a revenge affair, and wants to help him. "Advice" about how what he is justified in feeling or not feeling does nothing to help her in those goals. What does help her is advice from those that can understand her husbands point of view. You may disagree with him, but if you can't put that disagreement aside and at least empathize and understand him, you're not going to be helpful to either of them.

I'm guilty myself at some of the sniping at the disagreement. I encourage those that want to debate relationships in the abstract should do it in another thread.


----------



## NoChoice

Vorlon's post basically sums up what most of on here see and have already said. Use this experience to learn and grow. 

Allow me to reiterate what I wrote earlier, with no deference to the poster who stated that we all tell little white lies and it's okay, that a lie never comes back with glad tidings of great joy. They always have teeth and they usually bite...hard. It would do us all good to remember that fact.

From everything I've read here I don't see your H as a obsessive rageaholic but rather as a man of unusual depth in both thought and feeling. The shallow end of the pool is easy for kids but the deep end is difficult and challenging and requires more skill and wisdom to navigate.

It has been said here that you were brave to come on this forum and that it speaks to your character but I think your past 20 years as a dedicated, faithful wife speaks volumes more.

Despite what others say about "being on a break", I feel what you did was very wrong and that you should be deeply sorry. However, it was also the action of a 21 year old. There is a reason the saying is not "with youth comes wisdom"! I believe your H can also realize this and will, in time, put this behind him.

I say again though I would absolutely NC the OM in every way possible including thoughts. Selective amnesia, if you will. He has done enough to your family don't allow him any more chances.

All the best to you and your family.


----------



## wmn1

LacyS said:


> Over 20 years ago, my boyfriend, now husband, and I were broken up for about a month due to his refusal to commit to our relationship of over two years. I began going out with a guy who would come by from time to time at my work (Pharmacy) and the relationship culminated with a ONS. I began to realize how big of a mistake this was and as fate goes, my BF and I got back together and eventually were married ten months later.
> 
> 
> *At least you realized it was a mistake. I can understand his frustration over how quickly you jumped in with someone else and being ej'ed into and the deceit. However, he took you back, you've been together for 20 years and he should have learned to get over it by now since it was his decision to stay. I will note that you said 'his refusal to commit after 2 years". What does that mean ?? He wouldn't get married to you ? or was he seeing other women ?? Not sure what you meant by this
> *
> 
> 
> The night after the ONS, I called my then BF to come over, at which time I confessed the entire thing about being intimate with another man the night before. After smashing his fist against the windshield (we were sitting in his car in my parent's driveway) he just looked hurt - like he deflated. He had warned me the other guy was just out to get into my pants, etc. I more or less got out of the car quickly as I was afraid the loss of temper would return.
> 
> 
> s it turned out, we reconciled, but I was grilled on all of the specifics of the ONS over and over. Moreover, over the years, it has come up, usually briefly, from time to time. Each time the questions get more specific. I also answer as truthfully as I can from what I remember except for one thing: and this one thing has caused a MAJOR issue of which I don't quite understand and as to why I am here asking for a man's opinion.
> 
> 
> *The good thing is it still hurts him so he cares and that is a plus. The fact he keeps bringing it up however to bite you over it tells me he needs closure on it.
> *
> 
> About a month ago, this came back up as we recently moved to the city where the other guy has a business. We know this from FaceBook.
> 
> *When was the last time you spoke to this guy ? How did you know he was on facebook ? Not insinuating anything, but what has the history been between you and this guy after the ONS ?
> *
> 
> 
> 
> After going to bed, at three in the morning, I woke up to hear him sobbing in the den. I got him to come to bed, held him, told him how sorry I was and didn't understand why he was so upset about learning this after so many years have gone by. He explained the problem was knowing that another man had ejaculated inside me and that I let him do it.
> He further explained that sex with a condom was hard enough to deal with, and now a 20 year old lie adds insult to injury.
> 
> 
> *Not a deal breaker to me but everyone has their own priorities on the hurt.*
> 
> I don't know what to do. The next day, we managed to get up and go to church, but after he started crying again and said it will never be the same again. I am as devastated as I am confused to this reaction. For the record, since marriage there has be absolutely NO infidelity on either of our parts. We both are good spouses to each other.
> 
> 
> *Good, tells me you are meant for each other but just have to crush this nagging problem.
> *
> So my question, to men, is:
> Would the knowledge of another man ejaculating inside your girl/wife be a deal breaker? How important is this to you. I never thought about it, but now it seems to me that he feels that I am soiled.
> 
> Also, for the ladies: Does the thought of your guy doing this to another weigh the same way? Does it even matter?
> 
> Sorry for the length of this post, but sincerely need clarification as things are not getting better. He is now retired and has days off and is constantly working out at the gym (never did this before) and is looking better than ever. He just gives me these looks?!?!?!



working out is good as it blows off negative energy but you and him need some counseling (I never propose counseling as sometimes these counselors focus on their own values rather than yours) but anger management and coping with the incident. The counseling should focus more on him since he's the one blowing up and he holds onto it after 20 years

Good luck


----------



## vellocet

LacyS said:


> So my question, to men, is:
> Would the knowledge of another man ejaculating inside your girl/wife be a deal breaker?


Cheating either way would be a dealbreaker, ejaculation or not.

But in your situation, you were broken up. So although I wouldn't consider it cheating, it would bother me. If I was on a break from someone and they had a ONS, I don't know that I could get back together. Its a tough call and one I can't say one way or the other on.




> How important is this to you. I never thought about it, but now it seems to me that he feels that I am soiled.


I'm thinking that's the way he just might be seeing it. But could be the bigger problem is, he didn't now this until years later.

Has he talked about the ejaculation bothering him?




> Sorry for the length of this post, but sincerely need clarification as things are not getting better. He is now retired and has days off and is constantly working out at the gym (never did this before) and is looking better than ever.


He is feeling inadequate. I fully understand this. But what do you think the significance of his working out means?




> He just gives me these looks?!?!?!


What kind?


----------



## Wolf1974

LacyS said:


> He is 50, I am 41. Pencil is 51. Hubby is actuallt not at all childish. He is quite the man, to be honest. Ex US Marine. Has Graduate degree. Somehow this is eating him up.


Don't let those posters bother you calling him childish. To them the world must work according to them and everything outside that bubble must be wrong. 

I don't really understand your husbands perspective. I was married to a woman who was previously married and she had sex with him and that never bothered me. But this is bothering him so ask what you can both do to work on this. Some have suggested counceling for him but I think you would both benefit from some marriage counceling if he is willing.


----------



## naiveonedave

Wolf - she got hit on, decided she needed her BF to commit, wasn't happy, kinda/maybe broke up with him, gave it to the OM, then gets back to the original BF. That is cheating in my book. Not relevent to the current situation to say it wasn't cheating, because it clearly was to her then BF.


----------



## Wolf1974

naiveonedave said:


> Wolf - she got hit on, decided she needed her BF to commit, wasn't happy, kinda/maybe broke up with him, gave it to the OM, then gets back to the original BF. That is cheating in my book. Not relevent to the current situation to say it wasn't cheating, because it clearly was to her then BF.


I'm aware I have been reading from the beginning and agree that she stepped away from her relationship, leaving the now husband hanging, while she got with this other guy. But he did forgive that and married her anyways. What he didn't have information on was the way that went down. She downplayed and lied about details he requested. Hence the issue today.


----------



## naiveonedave

I guess I don't understand why you don't understand the OPs H concerns? He just got TT'd.


----------



## wmn1

murphy5 said:


> you guys were broken up, ended. You were perfectly right to have sex with whomever you wished. It was not cheating.
> 
> 
> ***** Not sure if you mean she was perfectly right or within her right. I do agree it was not cheating.*
> 
> And it is a little childish for a man to even ask the details of a ONS that you had when there was no relationship at all. Under these unique conditions, i just would never have told him the truth. It was none of his business.
> 
> **** One lesson I learned a while ago, marriage holds no secrets or shouldn't. It may be uncomfortable discussing certain things at certain times but I think there would be a difference if they were broken up a month and she went out with 15 guys as opposed to 1. Would it change the dynamic ? no Would it go towards his decision on whether to get back together with ehr or not ? Absolutely !!! Further, if he had the ONS and she didn't, would she ask the same questions ?? If so, then she shouldn't expect the info to be secret, none of his business or what have you. So I strongly disagree with the blanketed opinion you have Murphy though I do applaud Lacy for being honest and straight up with him. I do think he shouldn't be this way after 20 years but we are taking up an issue in an otherwise healthy marriage* s*o it will have to be dealt with*
> 
> If you guys had been going "steady" at the time, then it is a different story...ONS with another guy would have been cheating and implied something about your morals.
> 
> *** agreed
> 
> I would say to just tough it out until he gets over it.
> 
> 
> **** agreed*
> 
> I think this is similar to "the right to remain silent" in USA laws. It is against your rights for the cops to arrest you, ask you "have you ever broken any law", and then try to prosecute you for lying. They do not have a right to ask. Same answer to husband for questions about some other guy 20 years ago when you and him were no longer dating: "you do not have the right to ask"



**** They are moving to the same town. * *So there will be some insecurity there* *but I think he has all the answers he needs and 20 yrs to get over it so he shouldn't be acting this way*


----------



## naiveonedave

wmn - it was cheating. and TT about the details that just came out. She got caught up in the OM while in a committed relationship and then kinda/sorted dumps the BF when she tells him she can't do anything with him on saturday night, as she has a date. In his view, this was premediated cheating. He told her guy was no good as well.


----------



## Wolf1974

I don't personally understand the hang up about the semen in her.

He knew she slept with this other guy. He asked details, got some and was lied to about others. He decided to push forward and marry her. So he married her with the knowledge he had so that's on him.

Now he is finding out about the other details he was lied to and is pissed about that and rightfully so. I said I don't get personally the upset about the fact a condom wasn't used. I do get he is upset about the lying and deception. But that's me personally and I'm not him. This is about him and if that's upsetting to him then so be it. 

Honestly had I been in his shoes or his friend at the time I would have advised him to not marry her at all.


----------



## wmn1

LacyS said:


> I did not mean to Trickle Truth, honestly didn't know that term until lately. I think what I was thinking was that the act of intimacy in itself spoke to the damages. It took a while for him, after the initial confession, when I revealed the position (me on top) as he felt that I did him more than he did me, since I controlled the pace, etc. You know, you don't think of that stuff as its happening. I tried, at the time, to laugh it off by saying it was partly his fault for being so much "bigger" than the ONS guy; as being on top allows you to control the depth of penetration. Sorry, not trying to sound vulgar here. That didn't work well anyway, as I remember. For the next twenty years he referred to that guy as pencil d*ck.
> Also, the fact it was the first date with the other guy (wine moved it along) when my husband courted me excessively for two months before we were intimate. I can see how that would emasculate him.
> Truthfully, as I explained to hubby, I was angry as hell at the moment, figured we were over (I initiated the famous "I need space" speech). I had pursued him relentlessly for months and he seemed unwilling to commit. Didn't know if he was seeing other people; didn't care. In my heart, it was more or less revenge against love (him) more than attraction to this guy. My hubby today is very attractive, as it seems, to me, men get more attractive with age. The other night, our daughter was in town for a visit, and we went to a Mexican Restaurant for dinner. She mentioned how, to her, it seemed the women in the restaurant noticed him... a lot. He went to the restroom, so I watched as he came back, and it was true. At one point when he walked by the bar to get back to our table, a woman, young and very pretty, turned to watch him walk by and looked at her friend with raised eyebrows. This kind of has me worried. Would he plant his seed, in revenge. I don't think he would,,, but... he's very hurt.
> If I knew then what I know now...




We all wish we had hindsight 20/20.

Both of you are very good people and will overcome this. If he has been loyal 20 years, as long as you sit down and demand that you two hash it out and kill this, he'll stay true. Revenge affairs are horrible but I don't see the signs here. 

Just demand discussions and or counseling to get over it


----------



## naiveonedave

Wolf - that makes sesne, thanks for the reply.

I wonder if that is why he hadn't proposed? He knew she was young and wasn't really ready, even though she thought so.

I would have offered the same advice as you, why marry her at that point, though we don't have all of the history.


----------



## Forest

Forest said:


> I curious about some things. You've said the OM was 31, you were 21, and on birth control.
> You said you married husband 10 months later. When did these kids come along?





Q tip said:


> .???? Non sequitur


On the second or so post, Lacy mentioned her daughter was "in town" so they went out to dinner. The connotation being that the child has been away from home for at least a little while.

Given the time line she's laid out, she'd have pretty much have to have gone off the birth control prior to the marriage, conceived on the honeymoon, and the child moved out on her 18th birthday in order for this to all fit.

She said the incident with the OM happened at 21, she's now 41. They married 10 months after the "date"....Just a pretty tight timeline. Even for a knight in shining armor.


----------



## bandit.45

larry.gray said:


> A dude NEVER wins playing that game.
> 
> 
> I hope not, but wouldn't be surprisedhttp.



I hope that doesn't happen. I was being half facetious. But if he is handsome and has a six pack he just might.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Lacy*
> He texted later and told me that he didn't mean to sound rough, but I asked, and he answered.
> *So guys - is this on the mark? *


He is on the mark and this is what is bothering him



> By Lacy’s husband
> *That night, you gave the most intimate part of yourself to a man. You took his seed
> 
> “Pencil D--k's cum was probably still swimming inside you at that moment.”*





> *By Lacy*
> He told that he couldn't imagine that because he is my knight in shining armor and I was his girl. He said I need to jump on the white horse and snuggle up behind him and we'll ride to the end of the road ('til death we part?) I am just sobbing. Happy tears.
> I asked him if he could forgive this as God requires and he said - If I can't forgive you then I don't deserve you. cant type anymore now


Your husband sounds like a very strong and good man. For his sake and for your sake I hope that he will



> *“….throw those hurt as far as the East is from the West and remember them no more”*



This will test him and it will be real tough for him for a while but I would bet he will do that. He seems to be a committed man of faith. In addition, *he has two beautiful daughters that ONLY have DNA from you and him*. This man seems to be capable of real love and it appears that he loves you.

*You are a very lucky woman!!*


PS
Lacy, Do NOT get defensive about this issue for now if it comes up


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

He has every right to be hurt. It isnt for you to question the legitimacy of what he feels- you broke up with him and pursued another man while he pined for you AND you let another man blow in you without a condom running the risk of pregnancy (birth control doesnt always work) AND you lied about it when your fun was over as you needed plan B back. Even if he wasn't your plan B and you "just" made a horrific decision, he's certainly bound to feel like a plan B. 

Im shocked he didnt can you 20 years ago.

One of the things a woman offers a man in a relationship is paternal assurance- any baby coming out of her vagina is his. This is important for a man, and you destroyed his trust in that TWICE! First when you revealed you had a breeding session with another man while having him on standby (you may think "ONS" but he thinks "breeding session"); second when you told him you let the man have unprotected sex with you and finish in you.

Further, what about his health? This just further demonstrates a lack of proper care on your part. Yes, you told him about the ONS, but you also told him it was protected sex. When you got back together with him, did you have sex right away? What if you had contracted a disease from the unprotected ONS and passed it to him? Im assuming that didn't happen- but it could have- and he knows it.

If this comes off as a harsh reply thats because it has to be. It isnt my intent to drive you away from the forums but if you truly want to understand what he feels, you need the brutal truth served to you. Im glad to hear you've been faithful in marriage, but as the cliched phrase goes "it only takes one 'oops' to undo a thousand 'atta-boys'". You are one lucky woman that he has chosen to stick around...


----------



## Squeakr

michzz said:


> A stupid lie at 21 should not be used to whip you forevermore.


So true, unless you continue to perpetuate that lie, which she has done for 20 years. It is a shock to suddenly find out something you accepted as fact is not that anymore. 

I am glad that they are talking and working through it. Doesn;t matter if it is 20 years or 20 days, it is now fresh and new to him and it will take time to work through. Sounds like they are on that road.


----------



## Squeakr

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Yes, some lies are worse than others. Trying to imply they are all the same is hilarious.


Yep, we didn't actually have sex, he just put it in a little bit, is no where in the same ball park as I don't know how the scratch got on the car.


----------



## wmn1

LacyS said:


> Murphy, I see what you're meaning. He has reminded me that I broke it off with him at the "I need more space" speech, but he did not break it off with me. I remember him, then, saying this, but, in my mind, we were apart, or this would have never happened.
> 
> As someone here has pointed out, this news is new to him, as if it happened very recently. I have empathized if the shoe were on the other foot, would I feel/react the same. Don't know. I've never been cheated on and this is what terrifies me.
> 
> What if he breaks up with me, leaves me, over this and has his on ONS? Believe me, if you see this guy, he would not have a second's problem bedding someone else. So then what? Divorce? What if he does it on the sly and then tells me the details in 20 or so years? Fairplay? He does really look at me differently. I am concerned.
> 
> If I talk to him about it, what can I say to make him understand that I didn't mean to Trickle Truth. I have never been unfaithful in marriage. Telling him we were broken up and that he needs to get over it is NOT going to work here. I may as well tell him to go have an affair. I need to smooth this out somehow. I am sorry.




Therein lies the problem, the "I need space" line. Back in 1994, I had a girlfriend drop that line on me and I thought we were still together and she went off an cheated on me with an ex so I ended it. So I can see where the confusion is. He thought you were item, you didn't so you thought were in the ok and he thought he got cheated on. Further, you met him one day after ONS so were you an item one day afterwards or not ?


HIS CHEATING ON YOU AT THIS TIME IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE. 

I would sit down with him and emphasize that 
1) You felt you were broken up at the time and if there was any confusion, it is on you. 
2) Emphasize that you were completely faithful in your marriage, and always will be and tell him how he is hot and the other guy was a joke. Stroke his ego.
3) Tell him you were immature at the time.
4) Tell him you are hurt that he is still pushing this to the front after 20 years of marriage and ask him not to hurt the success of the marriage for an old bad mistake
5) It would be nice to know what he was doing for the month of your 'space'


----------



## norajane

OptimisticPessimist said:


> One of the things a woman offers a man in a relationship is paternal assurance- any baby coming out of her vagina is his. This is important for a man, and you destroyed his trust in that TWICE! First when you revealed *you had a breeding session with another man* while having him on standby (you may think "ONS" but he thinks *"breeding session"*); second when you told him you let the man have unprotected sex with you and finish in you.


Breeding session? Jeezus! WTF?

She is not a cow or horse. That is so freaking demeaning and dehumanizing.

She was a 21 year old who did something stupid and her H chose to marry her anyway. 20 years later, there is still fall-out because she wasn't honest. They have a good marriage and seem to be working it out on their own. 

Can we stop dehumanizing women who have sex, please?


----------



## michzz

norajane said:


> Breeding session? Jeezus! WTF?
> 
> She is not a cow or horse. That is so freaking demeaning and dehumanizing.
> 
> She was a *21 year old* who did *something stupid* and her H chose to marry her anyway. 20 years later, there is still fall-out because she wasn't honest. *They have a good marriage and seem to be working it out on their own. *
> 
> Can we stop dehumanizing women who have sex, please?


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

norajane said:


> Can we stop dehumanizing women who have sex, please?


Sure, as soon as you realize "we" aren't. There are numerous men and women saying sex was fine, it was the lie that was wrong.


----------



## Squeakr

Personal said:


> Sex between consenting adults is not soiled, unclean and or unethical.


In your mind, but your not the judge of all that is good and just in the world. The unclean depends on the individuals and the unethical depends on the society and its's values and morals. You have never differentiated between single versus attached, so you can't throw out such a blanket statement! As to soiled, some societies and groups view it as such if the female is not married. Fair? Not really, but it is their belief and value system. Consenting is also something open to interpretation, as the question could be asked how much wine was involved and was judgement clouded (not trying to say it was the bad situation we all here of, but more that she might not have been in a position to be consenting at that exact moment is all, as she has admitted she wanted it so she was definitely a willingly participating.)


----------



## wmn1

norajane said:


> And has he accounted for every kiss and ejaculation in his previous relationships? Told you all the details of each encounter? Explained to you in great detail as to whether his previous lovers breasts were bigger/smaller/better than yours? Told you whether they were on top or how often he went down on them? Did he apologize to you that he had other relationships? Have you been holding his previous lovers over his head for 20 years? No? then he can pull up his big boy pants instead of continuing to grill you about this for 20 years and continuing to hold it over your head this long.
> 
> 
> I am throwing the bs flag on this post. It sounds to me that *all previous relationships are not a factor here and there are no issues regarding them so bringing in the other relationships are irrelevant*and norajane is trying to make it one. The truth is that it was the ONS that is the sole factor. I think that Lacy needs to clarify that she felt they were broken up because I am seeing this guy as believing that he was cheated on and as we have discussed on this board time and time again, if one cheats, they do the heavy lifting and become fully transparent. So the first item is did Lacy cheat or not and if she can convince her husband who sounds like a good guy as well, that it was not cheating, then argument is done case closet. Telling him to st** will do nothing but damage a great relationship
> 
> But she must act now since he's hot over it
> 
> Why can't he try to work through his issues? Is he trying at all to fix this for himself since you cannot erase this sole ONS? He doesn't seem to be trying because he has been bringing this up for 20 years. Aren't Christians supposed to leave the judging up to God?
> 
> 
> 
> If he keeps bringing it up, or keeps punishing you for this, tell him you are done talking about this unless it's with a marriage counselor since you two aren't getting anywhere with it.


----------



## Squeakr

larry.gray said:


> I don't think that's accurate. She tried the other dude out and didn't like what she found. No indication that the other dude dumped her. It's only a plan B if she wanted the other dude and couldn't get him.


I disagree. She did get the other dude, and was hanging onto the prior one until she decided for sure. That is clear cut plan B and cake eating, where the WS is unwilling to let go of the current, jump fully, and commit to the next great thing until they are sure the new one is the better of the two, hanging on to the original until they decide (or the other decides for them). She had him and then decided he wasn't the best fit, so back to the original.


----------



## Yeswecan

norajane said:


> Breeding session? Jeezus! WTF?
> 
> She is not a cow or horse. That is so freaking demeaning and dehumanizing.
> 
> She was a 21 year old who did something stupid and her H chose to marry her anyway. 20 years later, there is still fall-out because she wasn't honest. They have a good marriage and seem to be working it out on their own.
> 
> Can we stop dehumanizing women who have sex, please?


:iagree:

Nora wrapped this saga up in a nutshell. Time for all to move along!


----------



## michzz

So, again, they were not married, they had broken up, they eventually reconciled, married, and had children.

Perspective please.

As someone who was cheated up for a very long time and kept in the dark, this situation pales in comparison, IMHO.

It really should not be in the infidelity forum.


----------



## wmn1

LacyS said:


> I felt that I was safe from STDs because the other guy was a doctor. He came on strong, took me to my first college football game at a major university. Doted on me, wined and dined, and you know the rest. I was smitten with all the attention after being the pursuer for so long.
> My husband did not date during our hiatus. As he pointed out, in his opinion, we were not broken up. He learned of the date on the day it was to take place and raised hell. The next morning, a Sunday, he called to ask how "my date" was the night before. It was then I asked him to ride over and talk. He parked in the driveway and as he was getting out of the car, I came out and told him to get back in the car to talk as my parents were getting ready for church. It was then when I told him. During this conversation, no specifics came up as to safe sex, etc. The jolt of what happened was enough at the time.
> 
> 
> This is what I thought. He felt you weren't broken up, you threw him a weak "space" line and that's why he feels betrayed.
> 
> My question is how did he know about the date the day of ??? The pain of that one night is probably going through his head as much as anything else, knowing he was (in his mind) beaing cheated on and helpless to do anything about it.
> 
> Sadly, the negative feelings from 20 years ago and how you handled it then have come back to haunt.
> 
> I made some recommendations above. I hope they hep and I hope your communication gets better between you two and you both come out stronger.


----------



## naiveonedave

sorry michzz, this was infidelity. Read wmn post


----------



## Dyokemm

"It really should not be in the infidelity forum."

Come on Michzz....I usually agree with the things you post, but not this.

Would you tell that to her H if he was the one posting here about how he was struggling with what happened?


----------



## wmn1

norajane said:


> OP has stated that he only just told her details of her H's previous sexual encounters, or one of them anyway. What has he been _hiding _all this time? What hasn't he told her, what did he keep to himself? We don't know, neither does the OP. There may be some things that she doesn't know that would have changed her mind about marrying him if she had known.
> 
> 
> 
> ****** again bs flag here. You are reaching hard to justify or equate. Speculating that he is hiding something is made up and ficticious. The fact that she had a ONS as a retaliation then lied about a key detail of it for 20 years does not put them on equal footing regardless of how you try to justify her actions.
> 
> At this point, it is long past time to let this sh*t go! They've been happily married for 20 years. That ought to be a million times more significant to their lives NOW.


**** I agree with this but there is one key detail missing. Is Lacy still in touch with this guy ?


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

norajane said:


> Breeding session? Jeezus! WTF?
> 
> She is not a cow or horse. That is so freaking demeaning and dehumanizing.
> 
> She was a 21 year old who did something stupid and her H chose to marry her anyway. 20 years later, there is still fall-out because she wasn't honest. They have a good marriage and seem to be working it out on their own.
> 
> Can we stop dehumanizing women who have sex, please?


I normally agree with your advice, but I dont in this thread. I would appreciate if we could keep any emotions in check and try to approach this rationally despite our differences in opinion.

Dehumanizing women who have sex? I have not done nor will I ever do that; I am not some male prude who wants women to be "virginal" and all that. I would date a woman who had 50 lovers before me and not care one bit- being sexual IS human and I find nothing wrong with that. I am not in the least bit shaming her for having sex. I am saying something else entirely.

There are 2 kinds of sex- f****** and making love. The ONS she had was the former. F****** is instinctually based in the act of reproduction- breeding. Both types of sex involve reproduction as the base; f****** is focused primarily on reproduction, while love-making is focused primarily on oneness/care/statement.

You must understand that he spent time getting to the point where she valued him enough to engage in sex. She broke up with him saying (in her words) "I need space". She then dated a man (a month later) and engaged in f******- focused primarily (in terms of instinct) on reproduction.

While there is nothing wrong with a woman's sexuality (or a man's sexuality I might add), she made a choice to accept the possibility of pregnancy with another man (birth control doesnt always work). Her willingness to do this leads me to my point:

A woman's degree of sexual exclusivity with a man is implicitly indicative of her devotion to him. She told him "I need space" which is essentially dissolving her devotion to him, she pursued (or allowed her self to be pursued by) another man, and she engaged in an act that demonstrated to her now-husband her ambivalence (at least ostensibly) towards him and her willingness (at least on an instinctual level) to reproduce with another man.

And then, she lied about it. True, maybe she's a different person now. Still, he has every right to feel the implications of her decisions past and present.

That's all I was trying to say


----------



## Jambri

It wouldn't be an issue to me as you were both broken up at the time. Marriage is a different matter of course, and even the act of protected sex would be a deal breaker to me in that case. I do understand where he is coming from in terms of the "betrayal factor" that letting a man come inside you creates. You have to remember, as men, we look at the fact that you have "taken in" part of another man and this activity, inseminating the female, is the ultimate intimate encounter, often resulting in the creation of another human being. Even if you are on birth control, the physical act is still intact.

Just my 0.02


----------



## warlock07

michzz said:


> So, again, they were not married, they had broken up, they eventually reconciled, married, and had children.
> 
> Perspective please.
> 
> As someone who was cheated up for a very long time and kept in the dark, this situation pales in comparison, IMHO.
> 
> It really should not be in the infidelity forum.


Says the one that posted 



michzz said:


> I have the impression that if you had told him the other guy ejaculated inside you he would have been hounding you to find out volume, consistency, etc.



Your post disgusted me so much that it was the first thing I could remember when I saw your username.


----------



## larry.gray

wmn1 said:


> **** I agree with this but there is one key detail missing. Is Lacy still in touch with this guy ?


She posted no, several pages back.

Her husband stumbled upon him on FB because pencil weenie was a friend of somebody hubby friended on FB.


----------



## wmn1

norajane said:


> Breeding session? Jeezus! WTF?
> 
> She is not a cow or horse. That is so freaking demeaning and dehumanizing.
> 
> She was a 21 year old who did something stupid and her H chose to marry her anyway. 20 years later, there is still fall-out because she wasn't honest. They have a good marriage and seem to be working it out on their own.
> 
> Can we stop dehumanizing women who have sex, please?


**** Missed the point again. It's not about the 'having sex', it's what happened, when it happened, how it happened and the leis afterwards. This has nothing to do with gender and further, I have a feeling you would be hurling stuff at her husband if he did this to her and came on here asking for help.


----------



## LacyS

Just checking in - things going well - he read some of this and actually thought it was insightful. He is normally a private individual, so I had to stress that although y'all were experienced at this and well-meaning, you are still strangers to us. 
He wanted to know every exact detail of the ONS (in his words, for the last time) from start to finish. He jokingly added that if the freaking Beatles were playing a live set in the corner of the bedroom while this happened, he wanted to know what song it was and what key it was in. So, we went back through it. Its resting for now. And he wants to take me out for dinner to "get away."

BTW, our oldest daughter turned 17 last May and just started college (graduated HS early) and our youngest is 13. Someone was asking.


----------



## Yeswecan

LacyS said:


> Just checking in - things going well - he read some of this and actually thought it was insightful. He is normally a private individual, so I had to stress that although y'all were experienced at this and well-meaning, you are still strangers to us.
> He wanted to know every exact detail of the ONS (in his words, for the last time) from start to finish. He jokingly added that if the freaking Beatles were playing a live set in the corner of the bedroom while this happened, he wanted to know what song it was and what key it was in. So, we went back through it. Its resting for now. And he wants to take me out for dinner to "get away."
> 
> BTW, our oldest daughter turned 17 last May and just started college (graduated HS early) and our youngest is 13. Someone was asking.


Glad you two are working it out. I have been through something similar. It never crosses my mind from day to day. History as it were. Good luck!


----------



## italianjob

It's amazing how many people don't really take the time to read before posting.

The point from which her H issues start is exactly that, contrary to what transpires from the initial post, they REALLY WEREN'T BROKEN UP when the ONS happened.

The OP herself admitted that they were done IN HER MIND but she only gave him the "I need space" speech and kept him hangin on.

This IS cheating, IMO, and I feel it is of the worst kind as by the timeline provided, with some trickle truth tecnique, by the OP, everything was planned in this ambiguous way to enable her to step aside, tryout the new guy, and come back in the relationship claiming it wasn't really cheating....


----------



## michzz

warlock07 said:


> Says the one that posted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your post disgusted me so much that it was the first thing I could remember when I saw your username.


I stand by what I wrote.

It was sex, what the heck did he think it was?

They were not married, she was 21, made an incredibly stupid mistake, owned up to it--then. And they married AFTERWARDS.

Getting obsessive about whether or not he finished inside her 20 YEARS LATER seems to me to be way off.


----------



## wmn1

LacyS said:


> Just checking in - things going well - he read some of this and actually thought it was insightful. He is normally a private individual, so I had to stress that although y'all were experienced at this and well-meaning, you are still strangers to us.
> He wanted to know every exact detail of the ONS (in his words, for the last time) from start to finish. He jokingly added that if the freaking Beatles were playing a live set in the corner of the bedroom while this happened, he wanted to know what song it was and what key it was in. So, we went back through it. Its resting for now. And he wants to take me out for dinner to "get away."
> 
> BTW, our oldest daughter turned 17 last May and just started college (graduated HS early) and our youngest is 13. Someone was asking.





Good for numerous reasons

1) He looks like he's trying to get by this and put it to rest as he should becasue you two have been awesome together for 20 years and both of you sound like great people
2) Kudos to you for reading what we had to say and taking the transparency route
3) I attribute your actions back then to immaturity. 21 year olds normally are
4) Be resilient and fight the demons that come from this but understand he's not one. 
5) My girlfriend in 1994 did this to me to an extent and I understand the hurt. However, because I am not with her (broke up in 1996) it still bugs me to this day but I learned from it and have a much better relationship with my wife (17 years). Kudos to you for keeping his feelings top priority as he will yours. I feel that he and you will live out your days happy as clams


----------



## michzz

Dyokemm said:


> "It really should not be in the infidelity forum."
> 
> Come on Michzz....I usually agree with the things you post, but not this.
> 
> Would you tell that to her H if he was the one posting here about how he was struggling with what happened?


Yes, I presume he is reading this.

I keep hammering on the idea that they were not married, she was 21, he ten years older. they had broken up, she confessed the very next day. left off a detail about a condom. yes, a mistake, a lie.

But from my perspective he knew enough as an adult man about how they had relations to decide to move forward or not.

And he moved forward. had children with her and has had, presumably, a great 20-year marriage.

That lie by his then 21-year-old on and off girlfriend is not in the realm of infidelity. particularly since he moved on and married her.

Getting obsessive about semen just seems off to me. Haven't you all had sex with a condom on before? It's still sex, right?


----------



## naiveonedave

mich you keep missing the point, they were not broken up, only in the OP's mind.


----------



## Jambri

italianjob said:


> It's amazing how many people don't really take the time to read before posting.
> 
> The point from which her H issues start is exactly that, contrary to what transpires from the initial post, they REALLY WEREN'T BROKEN UP when the ONS happened.
> 
> The OP herself admitted that they were done IN HER MIND but she only gave him the "I need space" speech and kept him hangin on.
> 
> This IS cheating, IMO, and I feel it is of the worst kind as by the timeline provided, with some trickle truth tecnique, by the OP, everything was planned in this ambiguous way to enable her to step aside, tryout the new guy, and come back in the relationship claiming it wasn't really cheating....


Yes, I see that halfway through her thread she comes clean...again.

I guess if I am her husband I can somehow get past it for the sole reason that 20 years of actual marriage has been loving and faithful. Not to say I wouldn't need time to digest everything but to me at least, marriage is the ultimate union and as long as there is no infidelity as a married couple then all else is a moot point.

Good luck Lacy


----------



## italianjob

Jambri said:


> Yes, I see that halfway through her thread she comes clean...again.
> 
> I guess if I am her husband I can somehow get past it for the sole reason that 20 years of actual marriage has been loving and faithful. Not to say I wouldn't need time to digest everything but to me at least, marriage is the ultimate union and as long as there is no infidelity as a married couple then all else is a moot point.
> 
> Good luck Lacy


My guess is that the issue was never really digested and resolved by him, because he didn't really face the problem but rug swept the whole thing. The discovery of lies told back then triggered him back to square one...


----------



## michzz

naiveonedave said:


> mich you keep missing the point, they were not broken up, only in the OP's mind.


No, I factored that in.

She admitted the encounter to him, he processed or didn't process in two decades ago.

Getting obsessive about it now, yes, a lie on detail, is not healthy, IMHO.

In their entire married life of two decades she has been faithful to him and loves him.

I have the impression he loves her too, but why the obsession with it now?

There is no STD, no pregnancy from that time.

Again, they married after the encounter was aired. 

The lady was 21 and made a stupid mistake UNMARRIED.

Anyway, that is the last I'll comment, sorry for the thread jack.


----------



## vellocet

LacyS said:


> Hookares, we have two daughters. And he can DNA test until the cows come home and then DNA the cows. These girls are 100% his, look like him, have his gorgeous blue eyes. Yep, no problem there. Promise. I didn't lie for 20 years about everything, just one thing.


And I would assume your first daughter was born well past 9 months since the OM came in you?


----------



## vellocet

LacyS said:


> Just to clarify to all (receiving PMs about this): Hubby and I dated for about seven weeks before I felt it was exclusive and we became intimate.


Now I'm confused. You basically said that you broke it off with then bf(now husband) because of a failure, on his part, to commit. But here you are saying you felt committed. 
I hate to bring this up, but are you sure you didn't break it off back then because you wanted this OM?

Because now with you saying this, I can definitely understand your husband's problem with it all if he might be thinking the same thing.

EDIT AFTER READING MORE:



> In October, I was working part time at a pharmacy near a medical park when a new guy in town would come by to get coffee and a sandwich (Px had a diner) and we began to chat, just a little. He was older, like my BF.Hubby, kind of cute and was looking at a bright future. I began to think. I began to think about the OM.
> 
> I asked BF/Hubby if he knew where our relationship was headed and he told me that he didn't know. He was happy in the moment. By this time me and the OM were on first name basis instead of Dr.OM, or as Hubby likes to say Dr. Pencil ----. I was certainly flattered that he was paying me attention and it felt good to be noticed and validated.


Ok, so you did break up to shag Pencil. I'm sure your husband is thinking this too and THIS is probably why he is having a very hard time with everything, the omission of Pencil ejaculating inside you was just new information and insult to injury....and it matters not how long ago it was. When you take something that hurt him, then add new crap to it years later, well hells bells, he is probably thinking, "and the hits just keep on coming".

So if you are wondering why he is having a hard time, and I'm only guessing because only he can tell you for sure, it would be the knowledge that you were smitten with the other guy, decided to break up so you could carry your emotional affair with him to the next level. So I change my original opinion when I didn't think it was cheating....yes, you cheated.


----------



## Graywolf2

OP’s husband is a good guy. Some of you make him sound like an unreasonable cry baby. He processed this thoroughly years ago, dropped it and decided to marry her. 

Everything was fine until they were both looking at FB and noticed that the OM was a friend of the guy they were looking at. This brought the subject up again after years. The husband mentioned that the OM used a condom and the OP corrected him. 

Her husband needs to process this new information and wants to make sure that he has the complete story this time. It sounds like all he needs is tme.



LacyS said:


> He wanted to know every exact detail of the ONS (in his words, for the last time) from start to finish. He jokingly added that if the freaking Beatles were playing a live set in the corner of the bedroom while this happened, he wanted to know what song it was and what key it was in. So, we went back through it. Its resting for now. And he wants to take me out for dinner to "get away."


----------



## Forest

Graywolf2 said:


> OP’s husband is a good guy. Some of you make him sound like an unreasonable cry baby. He processed this thoroughly years ago, dropped it and decided to marry her.
> 
> Everything was fine until they were both looking at FB and noticed that the OM was a friend of the guy they were looking at. This brought the subject up again after years. The husband mentioned that the OM used a condom and the OP corrected him.
> 
> Her husband needs to process this new information and wants to make sure that he has the complete story this time. It sounds like all he needs is tme.


Ah, some good insight. 

20 years ago, he was broken up about it, too. At the time, his recourse was only to toss everything away, including the woman he loved, or accept this betrayal and move forward with his original goals.

This is something every betrayed person has to live with. You have two choices. Both suck, but you must choose one. 

No one said he ever completely got over it, or forgot about it. Something can fester under the surface for a very long time until another factor causes it to come to a head. Pretty graphic and unpleasant analogy, but fitting.


----------



## soccermom2three

naiveonedave said:


> mich you keep missing the point, they were not broken up, only in the OP's mind.



I don't understand this "in the OPs mind" thing. It's been mentioned several times like it means something. 

If I break up with someone and that someone doesn't want to accept it, that's not my problem. A breakup isn't always mutually agreed upon. Again like I said in my other post do I need to get a notarized document to be able to move on?


----------



## Dyokemm

"they had broken up"

Michzz,

No they hadn't.

Even Lacy admits now she did not break up with him, just asked for some space to think about the direction the relationship was heading, and that they were in nearly daily communication during the 30 days.

In addition, she has admitted that the main hope she had in gaining 'space' was to try out the relationship with OM...a fact she did NOT clue her then bf in on.

He chose to forgive and reconcile, and apparently they have had a wonderful M.

But that decision was made based on what she had told him about the ONS....and part of that story was just recently revealed to be a lie.

It is understandable that it upset him, BUT I am very happy for both he and Lacy that they appear to be quickly putting this behind them.

This is a pattern of WS behavior we see so often here on TAM it would be comical if it wasn't so tragic.

I am very happy for Lacy that she and her H seem to be moving past this, but that doesn't mean it is wrong to point out that she did in fact cheat and the 'break' was only present in her mind, not her now H's, so of course he felt cheated on....and that it is expected that a BS will be upset by TT'ing both during and after R.

I guess we will have to just disagree on this one.


----------



## soccermom2three

hookares said:


> OP, are there any kids that resulted from this fiasco?
> If so, how can your "true love" be sure he's the father?
> You didn't just lie once. You lied for twenty years.



Omg! You have got to be kidding me!


----------



## Q tip

soccermom2three said:


> Omg! You have got to be kidding me!


Yep, some just don't read the entire thread... It shows quickly, then people tend to,ignore that poster.

They usual seem to not ad value and are judgmental. Disrespects a person looking for help.


----------



## Dyokemm

Soccermom,

Even Lacy admits she NEVER told her then bf they were broke up....just that she wanted 'space'.

Him not wanting to accept the breakup has absolutely no part of this situation.

And she has said the request for 'space' was primarily to try out OM.

I am really flummoxed by the unwillingness of some of the posters here to accept Lacy's OWN words on this point.

She has admitted that the 'break' was something she felt in her mind, along with a desire for revenge, but WAS NOT something she expressed to her bf.

You can argue with other posters interpretations all you want, disagreements and different opinions will always exist in these discussions.

But I don't know why some people keep arguing against Lacy's own admissions.


----------



## soccermom2three

TRy said:


> One problem with what you just said. The OP has admitted that the husband has hardly brought it up over the last 20 years. The issue was that she lied to him about using a condom and just admitted that lie to him. I am amazed at how many posters keep projecting false accusations on to the husband that the OP never made, and then have strong opinions based on these false projections.



What? Right in the original post she says it was brought up over and over in the marriage and he would ask more specific questions each time.


----------



## ThePheonix

OptimisticPessimist said:


> He has every right to be hurt. It isnt for you to question the legitimacy of what he feels- you broke up with him and pursued another man while he pined for you .


This is planet Earth, Xarian. When you tell a earth women that you don't know where the relationship is going, she doesn't say, "just take your time baby. If you decide you want to keep me, I'll be right here waiting for you. In the meantime, I'll fulfill my obligation not to see other men while you decide if I'm what you want." The human female species on this planet actually believe that if you're not willing to commit to them, they don't have to be committed to you. They also believe they don't need your sanction if they decide want to break up with you.


----------



## soccermom2three

Dyokemm said:


> Soccermom,
> 
> Even Lacy admits she NEVER told her then bf they were broke up....just that she wanted 'space'.
> 
> Him not wanting to accept the breakup has absolutely no part of this situation.
> 
> And she has said the request for 'space' was primarily to try out OM.
> 
> I am really flummoxed by the unwillingness of some of the posters here to accept Lacy's OWN words on this point.
> 
> She has admitted that the 'break' was something she felt in her mind, along with a desire for revenge, but WAS NOT something she expressed to her bf.
> 
> You can argue with other posters interpretations all you want, disagreements and different opinions will always exist in these discussions.
> 
> But I don't know why some people keep arguing against Lacy's own admissions.



So she used the word "space" instead of "break". I think those word are interchangeable in the dating world.


----------



## sidney2718

Dyokemm said:


> Sidney,
> 
> Do you even bother to keep up with the OP's own posts and admissions?
> 
> Because if you do, then you should realize that if she was to take the attitude that you propose after all she has admitted she truly did, then her M, which she wants to keep, would probably come to a crashing end.
> 
> She DID lie. by her own admission, as to the nature of the 'space' she asked for....it wasn't just to think about her relationship with BH and what she wanted...IT WAS TO ACTIVELY PURSUE POSOM...by her own admission.
> 
> And if you think that her BH does not deserve to know he was gaslighted for 30 days, while he tried harder to reconnect with OP, while she pursued this relationship with POS, then I suggest you at least stop posting opinions and advice that will lead to the utter destruction of her M now in all likelihood.
> 
> OP wants to save her M....the attitude and advice you are suggesting will probably end it.


Dyokemm: You are right and not right. This thread has exploded. There are twice as many posts today as there were yesterday and twice as many yesterday as there were the day before.

I tend to respond to a post when I see that post. I've not yet read further. The problem here is that the OP has almost completely changed her story since her initial posting.

The original post had that she and her then BF had broken it off. That's now changed so that it was only a "let's not see each other for a little while" during which she plotted her revenge. In her original post there was no revenge.

And so on.

This has left me high and dry and I freely admit it. Which is why I've been quiet. Put another way, you are two chapters ahead of me in the book which is why my posts look strange to you.


----------



## Dyokemm

"So she used the word "space" instead of "break". I think those word are interchangeable in the dating world."

Fair enough that you see them as interchangeable.

But based on her posts/admissions of what actually happened, I don't think Lacy sees them this way herself.

She has ADMITTED to what she did Soccermom.

She Plan B'ed her now H and went off to try out OM.


----------



## Q tip

soccermom2three said:


> Omg! You have got to be kidding me!





Dyokemm said:


> "So she used the word "space" instead of "break". I think those word are interchangeable in the dating world."
> 
> Fair enough that you see them as interchangeable.
> 
> But based on her posts/admissions of what actually happened, I don't think Lacy sees them this way herself.
> 
> She has ADMITTED to what she did Soccermom.
> 
> She Plan B'ed her now H and went off to try out OM.


True.

She also asked for men's view so she could further understand the hurt and pain so she can help her H. Just a bit of scope creep...

Anyway, they've turned a major corner I think. Were just waiting to see how they're doing.

When her H reads all this, hoping he understands and reads past a few posts...

She cares enough to ask for help. Complete strangers too.


----------



## Forest

She's got Mr. Steady guy that she's been dating for TWO YEARS. They have a serious and sexual relationship during this time. Neither dates other people.

Meanwhile, a nice and upwardly mobile doctor flirts Lacy up at the pharmacy. Lacy then pushes her steady guy to "commit". According to Lacy, he doesn't respond the way she desires. We have no idea how he responded. 

Lacy then says "I need space", goes on one date with the doctor, and has unprotected sex with him, then runs back to Mr. Steady.

Is this accurate, or not? 

If the male in this situation had pulled such a calculating stunt, I don't think Lacy's supporters would show the same consideration. To echo Q-tip, Lacy did ask for the input of men right from the beginning.


----------



## sidney2718

Forest said:


> She's got Mr. Steady guy that she's been dating for TWO YEARS. They have a serious and sexual relationship during this time. Neither dates other people.
> 
> Meanwhile, a nice and upwardly mobile doctor flirts Lacy up at the pharmacy. Lacy then pushes her steady guy to "commit". According to Lacy, he doesn't respond the way she desires. We have no idea how he responded.
> 
> Lacy then says "I need space", goes on one date with the doctor, and has unprotected sex with him, then runs back to Mr. Steady.
> 
> Is this accurate, or not?
> 
> If the male in this situation had pulled such a calculating stunt, I don't think Lacy's supporters would show the same consideration. To echo Q-tip, Lacy did ask for the input of men right from the beginning.


It is not accurate.


----------



## sidney2718

LacyS said:


> Just checking in - things going well - he read some of this and actually thought it was insightful. He is normally a private individual, so I had to stress that although y'all were experienced at this and well-meaning, you are still strangers to us.
> He wanted to know every exact detail of the ONS (in his words, for the last time) from start to finish. He jokingly added that if the freaking Beatles were playing a live set in the corner of the bedroom while this happened, he wanted to know what song it was and what key it was in. So, we went back through it. Its resting for now. And he wants to take me out for dinner to "get away."
> 
> BTW, our oldest daughter turned 17 last May and just started college (graduated HS early) and our youngest is 13. Someone was asking.


Good luck Lacy! I wish you and your husband many many years of happiness and love.


----------



## Forest

Personal said:


> Although I can't speak for others, as a man I can say I hold the same opinion regardless of gender.
> 
> Considering the bolded text as quoted above, am I right to presume you consider Lacy to be the enemy?


Why be antagonistic? 

In order to please you, do you want me to rephrase it to something like: "those who think what Lacy did was proper, deserving of praise and blind, unquestioning support"? She asked for opinions. Some reason you feel you have to police other's opinions?

Do you feel Lacy handled the whole situation well? Do your support what she did or not?

Just continue to pick nits, and ignore what the OP requested.


----------



## workindad

OP- I am very sorry to hear about your husbands pain.

The years of lies must be very hard for him to accept along with you having no regard for his personal health. People who engage in unprotected sex are at risk for STDs. It doesn't matter how much money or what kind of job the person you hop in the sack with has. STDs do not discriminate and you had no right to take that chance with his health.

He has a right to feel the way he does, just as you have a right to your feelings.

I'm puzzled by your decision for revenge sex. If you thought you were done with your husband, how does boning some other guy achieve your goal? That leads me to believe that you either knew or hoped that it wasn't really over and your husband at the time was obviously still pursuing you since he did call as you stated.

My guess is that hes questioning everything that has occurred over the last 20-years of lies. What else does he not know, etc. 

Hopefully, you guys can work through this.

Lies and an attempt to rug sweep got you in this mess.

I suggest being completely honest and telling him how you feel and what your concerns are while also understanding his.

Perhaps if you had told him everything at the time he would have not continued to pursue you. Your lie stole that decision from him and if you really thought it was no big deal then why lie about it anyway?

Get some good counseling and acknowledge and address his concerns and yours. Do not rug sweep

Good luck.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

ThePheonix said:


> This is planet Earth, Xarian. When you tell a earth women that you don't know where the relationship is going, she doesn't say, "just take your time baby. If you decide you want to keep me, I'll be right here waiting for you. In the meantime, I'll fulfill my obligation not to see other men while you decide if I'm what you want." The human female species on this planet actually believe that if you're not willing to commit to them, they don't have to be committed to you. They also believe they don't need your sanction if they decide want to break up with you.


I just don't understand- I am trying to be as non-combative as possible, and yet I distinctly detect a tone of condescension in your response. I know this is planet Earth- why are you saying it that way? This is an implicit ad-hominem attack wherein you discredit my argument by implicitly shaming my person. I am not attacking you- I am merely defending myself. I understand and accept that these arguments can be heated and that you may not agree with me, but can we _please_ abstain from this sort of thing? A poster earlier accused me of dehumanizing a woman's sexuality when that was not even remotely what I intended or how I think; I honestly dont understand what it is im doing that is so conducive to conflict. Let me further try to clarify: 

Plenty of men (and women) are fine in long-term exclusive unmarried relationships, plenty are not. This is a fact. Yes, marriage is the majority, but there are many relationships 20+ years long without a marriage contract.

Marriage is the social joining of two people- some men are very cautious with this joining, others are not. He didnt know about marriage with her, but he did know he wanted to be in a committed relationship with her (and *was*). 

If she felt he wasn't committing to her quickly enough (her right), she could have simply said "Im breaking up with you." She is _absolutely_ entitled to make that choice, and I am not arguing that one bit. A clear and concise statement that makes it known to him without any question they are over as a couple and that she- as well as he- is free to carry on relationships with other people.

What she did however was different. First, she did not say "Im breaking up with you"- she said "I need some space." That is _often_ female code-speak for "I am just not that into you and need to see if I can find someone better while keeping you around as plan B." Not always, but often. To be able to tell, you need to consider other information and make a judgement call. 

As it turns out, the OP admitted her intention (at that time; im not saying she is the same person now, that she doesnt realize how awesome her husband is now, etc) was to pursue another man. Current husband *at that time* was plan B- the fallback in case plan A didnt pan out.

Her husband knows this (whether consciously, or he subconsciously "feels" it) and it bothers him. Is this _his_ fault? Is he a "child" or is there "something wrong with him" because he feels unsettled as a result of this?



soccermom2three said:


> So she used the word "space" instead of "break". I think those word are interchangeable in the dating world.


The burden of conveying something lies with the speaker, not with the audience. You are a _woman_ who thinks they are interchangeable- but by Merriam-Webster's definition "break" and "space" are two completely different words. I understand what you MEAN I think- if a woman tells me "I need some space" I would KNOW hands down what she meant. I would move on.

But plenty of men brought up in the last few generations have demonstrated they DONT know what that means. Some women exploit this to have a plan B with plausible deniability, some just fail to make their point clear, and others still dont think at all simply getting away from a Beta and pursuing a potential Alpha. A simple "Im breaking up with you" solves any and all problems. 

I, again, am not trying to be combative; I am trying to be thorough. The OP asked for MEN to give their perspectives- this is MY opinion.


----------



## workindad

soccermom2three said:


> So she used the word "space" instead of "break". I think those word are interchangeable in the dating world.


It may mean that for you and for OP and also me, but obviously not her husband.


----------



## wmn1

Dyokemm said:


> Soccermom,
> 
> Even Lacy admits she NEVER told her then bf they were broke up....just that she wanted 'space'.
> 
> Him not wanting to accept the breakup has absolutely no part of this situation.
> 
> And she has said the request for 'space' was primarily to try out OM.
> 
> I am really flummoxed by the unwillingness of some of the posters here to accept Lacy's OWN words on this point.
> 
> She has admitted that the 'break' was something she felt in her mind, along with a desire for revenge, but WAS NOT something she expressed to her bf.
> 
> You can argue with other posters interpretations all you want, disagreements and different opinions will always exist in these discussions.
> 
> But I don't know why some people keep arguing against Lacy's own admissions.



You are right 100%. Some people can't bring themselves to stop cheerleading one side or the other. From the early stages in this thread I could tell she hadn't broken up with him. I went through the same situation and space line and thought me and my GF were an item but she had to resolve issues on her own end. She then cheated on me with her ex-boyfriend who dumped her for her best friend. WTF. That relationship was done even after she begged to come back. 

It is obvious from her words that it was childish play, immaturity and a power play and revenge but she's lucky this guy overcame it and she seems to have very well in the marriage too.

definitely cheating and nearly fatal to the relationship but hopefully they live happily ever after. At least she realizes what she did after the spin and made amends.


----------



## harrybrown

When your H finds out something new, it brings it all back like it just happened.

I do hope you tell him why you waited so long to tell your H the truth.

I do hope you were tested years ago for stds. 

Over time my pain from my wife's betrayal gets less and less painful, but finding out a new lie brings it all back. 

It will help if you tell your H why he was your second choice at the time, and please tell him why you lied all these years.

It does make it difficult to trust. It was good of you to tell him about it at the time, but it would have been better to avoid the trickle truth.


----------



## wmn1

ThePheonix said:


> This is planet Earth, Xarian. When you tell a earth women that you don't know where the relationship is going, she doesn't say, "just take your time baby. If you decide you want to keep me, I'll be right here waiting for you. In the meantime, I'll fulfill my obligation not to see other men while you decide if I'm what you want." The human female species on this planet actually believe that if you're not willing to commit to them, they don't have to be committed to you. They also believe they don't need your sanction if they decide want to break up with you.



again there was no breakup, no cheating from him and she admitted that they were in a committed relationship. You are wrong on all points Phoenix. 

The lesson here is do unto others as you would want done to you and if Lacy's husband did this, he would probably have been curbed pretty fast


----------



## wmn1

soccermom2three said:


> So she used the word "space" instead of "break". I think those word are interchangeable in the dating world.



No they aren't. Not even close. In today's world, people are starting to read it that way, not in 1994. If you want to break up, say "it's over !!!!!!!" don't say space because people will think that you want a little time t think some things through. Big difference


----------



## FalconKing

Personal said:


> I concur, especially getting past those posts that feed anxiety, self doubt and contemplating one's navel.


:scratchhead:

you mean post like these?



Personal said:


> Hi LacyS,
> 
> No! I have no problem with knowing another man has ejaculated inside my wife outside of our relationship.
> 
> I think your husband is a sulk and should get over himself and his archaic views.
> 
> Soiled!!! Really?.... I can't understand how anyone can think this today. Both men and women enjoy sex, therefore both men and women have sex, sometimes with many partners. There is nothing wrong with men and women having sex as consenting adults. Since sex is not wrong a woman cannot be soiled by having sex whether it is with one person or a thousand.
> 
> My wife and I had history before we met when we were turning 26 and 25. I know some of her history as she knows some of mine. My only thoughts on her history is, I am glad she had fun and enjoyed some of it it along the way.
> 
> I think such details only weight heavily on those who think women belong to them as property.
> 
> I think women would do well to avoid men who think that way, since it only causes problems.





Personal said:


> She had sex with another man when she was not in a committed relationship with her husband. Therefore he would be well served by getting over it and crying less.
> 
> When a man punches a window on being told that a woman had sex with someone else (think violence and intimidation), a woman may not be well served by immediately telling such a man she did it sans condom.
> 
> Experience and age has appears to have done nothing for his maturity or respect for women.
> 
> When do you think it is okay to intimidate, threaten and or hurt women?




Do you think these are good examples?


----------



## FalconKing

Personal said:


> Although I find it disconcerting that her husband was crying over some spilt seed when they weren't married, I have no idea if her husband is out of control, as it stands I presume he isn't. On the other hand, it is likely he was behaving without control when he punched the window.
> 
> Absent any marriage vows, the original poster has no obligation to be sexually faithful to anyone.
> 
> If they were married at the time I could understand the apoplexy. Since they weren't married and he chose to marry her anyway, his reaction 20 years later is a bit overwrought.
> 
> At the end of the day, it probably isn't about not using a condom at all. Since it is highly likely he would have issues over this either way. Do you really think he would equally be okay if she swallowed every last drop of it with a smile?
> 
> *Which comes to the point of having something against women. If all men were okay with women enjoying sex and exchanging fluid with as many men they like before they are with them. This would be a non issue. The fact that it is an issue, clearly demonstrates that women still have a long way to go before they achieve real equality.*
> 
> Her husband could do with a dose of resilience in order to treat his fragile self indulgent ego. I can't see any value in encouraging someone's anxiety.


I really don't think it's a good idea for people to wait until they are legally bound to start displaying traits like faithfulness and monogamy. In my opinion that sounds dangerous and ridiculous. 

And people sleeping around has nothing to do with equality. I don't sleep around and I wouldn't want a woman that does either. That's about values and preference. Also, it's funny that you feel people should be free to sleep with whomever they want but it's a terrible thing that someone wouldn't want somebody that does that? There is no rational reasoning for that. That's just how you feel. I don't think like you. And I maybe wouldn't look for the same things in a partner as you would. But it has nothing to with oppressing women. If you need to feel like you are a better man than most because you would have no idea or ever have an idea of what a woman was doing before she meet you, than good for you. I just hope you don't invest your money like you would invest your time and heart in relationships.


----------



## workindad

OP- you know what Pencil is doing now because of facebook. Are you or your H friends with him? Just trying to understand why you or H would seek out that information from a 20 year old ONS. Just trying to understand this part.


----------



## ThePheonix

wmn1 said:


> again there was no breakup, no cheating from him and she admitted that they were in a committed relationship. You are wrong on all points Phoenix.


Just going by her first post which appears to be an unedited version of what happened before any leading by her "advisers". Maybe she changed her testimony later. If it took her old man a month to figure something was amiss, what can I say. Of course I may see an error in my points if someone would explain how "they" were in a committed relationship when he purportedly refused to commit. 



LacyS said:


> Over 20 years ago, *my boyfriend, now husband, and I were broken up for about a month* due to his refusal to commit to our relationship of over two years.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

ThePheonix said:


> Just going by her first post which appears to be an unedited version of what happened before any leading by her "advisers". Maybe she changed her testimony later. If it took her old man a month to figure something was amiss, what can I say. Of course I may see an error in my points if someone would explain how "they" were in a committed relationship when he purportedly refused to commit.


Let me try to understand:

Are you suggesting that they were indeed separated despite the Original Poster specifically saying they were not later in the thread, and this because you reason the Original Poster has been surreptitiously guided to the conclusion they were a couple by a clever cabal of haters who are trying to achieve some nefarious agenda?

What about the well-known phenomenon occurring in situations like this known as "trickle-truth"? Does that not apply here for some reason unbeknownst to me?

FWIW I wish the OP well, I think she is handling the situation right now, Im pleased to see they appear to be working through it, etc. At the same time, I dont understand why her husband is getting so much flack and so little compassion, and it seems some of the conclusions being drawn here are actually _hostile_ towards him :scratchhead:

**EDIT** Also: "If it took her old man a month to figure something was amiss, what can I say." This sounds dangerously close to implicitly insulting the husband's intelligence. I dont know if it was your intention, but to me it sounds like "if the dumba** didnt realize they werent in a relationship in her mind (whats in his mind doesnt matter), Im not going to waste my time responding." Can you clarify this a bit please? If he does read his thread that might make him feel even more insecure than he already feels atm...


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Lacy*
> He wanted to know every exact detail of the ONS (in his words, for the last time) from start to finish. He jokingly added that if the freaking Beatles were playing a live set in the corner of the bedroom while this happened, he wanted to know what song it was and what key it was in. So, we went back through it


I can understand why he would now want to “know every exact detail of the ONS”
His trust has been rattled and he wants to try and make sure that he now knows everything this issue out of mind is very helpful in healing the hurts. Get the details if you have to but then make up your mind that you are either going to believe her and DROP IT or you will allow this to torment you for the rest of your life.


At this point it appears that Lacy and her husband are going to patch things up. The way he is speaking is without vengeance but just hurt. She must be a good woman because he really wants her.


The way Lacy speaks about her husband is a man’s dream. I hope that she continues to have that kind of admiration for her husband for the next 20 years. After the crises is over it is very easy to forget the good points about your mate and that is meant for both partners.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

Mr Blunt said:


> I can understand why he would now want to “know every exact detail of the ONS”
> His trust has been rattled and he wants to try and make sure that he now knows everything this issue out of mind is very helpful in healing the hurts. Get the details if you have to but then make up your mind that you are either going to believe her and DROP IT or you will allow this to torment you for the rest of your life.
> 
> 
> At this point it appears that Lacy and her husband are going to patch things up. The way he is speaking is without vengeance but just hurt. She must be a good woman because he really wants her.
> 
> 
> The way Lacy speaks about her husband is a man’s dream. I hope that she continues to have that kind of admiration for her husband for the next 20 years. After the crises is over it is very easy to forget the good points about your mate and that is meant for both partners.


:iagree:


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

Did you just pull the "I am only going by the OP" card.


ThePheonix said:


> Just going by her first post which appears to be an unedited version of what happened before any leading by her "advisers". Maybe she changed her testimony later. If it took her old man a month to figure something was amiss, what can I say. Of course I may see an error in my points if someone would explain how "they" were in a committed relationship when he purportedly refused to commit.


Wait are yout trying to pretend you only read the other posts, answered them and then skipped the thread starter's comments? LOLOLOLOL.
HAhahahahahahaha thanks that's funny.

They seem settled so, this thread is done.
Peace.


----------



## Thundarr

Sad story. ONS, while separated, could be overcome but honesty is needed. Trickle truth was a result of self preservation so let's not justify it as naivety.

The problem with trickle truth is that is requires re-evaluation every time more truth trickles out.


----------



## ThePheonix

OptimisticPessimist said:


> I just don't understand- I am trying to be as non-combative as possible, and yet I distinctly detect a tone of condescension in your response.


I didn't intend for my response to sound like a personal attack against you; although I see how a reasonable person would interpret it that way. My effort was designed to draw attention to her initial statement that he refused to commit to their relationship. Therefore they were not in a committed relationship and by his refusal, it is reasonable for her to believe any commitment he may have toward her was weak at best. 
Since he wanted to keep his options open, why shouldn't she? I didn't see any other statement she made that indicated she knew he really was committed to relationship. Yes, I do think some people tweak their responses to please the crowd. No, I don't question his intelligence. But I do think he overplayed his hand telling her he didn't want to commit when a guy was lurking in the background. May advise continues to be don't tell a woman you don't want to commit if you want her to have confidence she picked the right dude and maintain a high romantic interest in you. Ignore this at your own peril. Lacy lost, but apparently regained, romantic interest hence the reason she dated the other guy.


----------



## ThePheonix

phillybeffandswiss said:


> Did you just pull the "I am only going by the OP" card.


Her testimony is all anybody is going by, notwithstanding the assumptions some are making. Do you have other information I'm not aware of?


----------



## NoChoice

I find it fascinating, puzzling and a little troubling how people come to so many different conclusions from the same information. Some have even suggested that different words are interchangeable. Some have stated that she was in pursuit of OM. Some have stated the her H, then BF, was never going to commit. If you weigh the facts and evidence I don't understand the wildly varying conclusions.

First off "space" and "finished" are not the same word in any context. Second, look at the character of the OP. She has been with 2 people in her entire life up until the OM. Does that sound like a woman who pursues men?? Third, Her H, then BF, had been through two heartbreaking relationships prior and needed more time to be certain he didn't make this number three. This is the information we have been given thus far.

I think what happened was that she was very much in love with her H, then BF, and she felt that her "I need space" comment would prompt him to action. When it did not, she felt rejected. She then needed another plan to goad him. Conveniently, there was this OM, pencil, who had apparently shown interest in her and when he came into the pharmacy and began talking with her she saw an opportunity. HE may have been pursuing her but I fail to see the opposite. She and her H, then BF, were still communicating and he found out about the date. This made him angry and she saw that. So if that made him so emotional what would intimacy do? Now keep in mind that all of this was in the mind of a then 21 y.o. kid. I know we are all supposed to be fully developed mentally at 21 but that simply is not the case.

What she failed to see was that her H, then BF, was committed and very deeply in love with her but was being cautious because of his past heartache. So committed in fact, that he was able to get over her actions and married her anyway.

I believe that had she been more patient and given him time her H, then BF, would have proposed anyway but how often do we feel we are in control and can make life happen better/quicker? Thankfully, this time it worked out, or appears to have and the result is a happy couple with two wonderful daughters. Would that we were all as fortunate.

So maybe I am naive, maybe I am way off the mark or maybe I am just plain stupid but that is my take on this story from the information presented. A rare happy ending, hopefully.


----------



## missthelove2013

Read my post...I am a HATEr of cheaters...I would be the first to chastize you if you had done something wrong

but you were broken up...tell this sobbing mess to grow a sack and get over it...jeez, does he expect YOU to put up with being punished for something you had every right to do...yeah maybe it wasnt the best thing for the relationship, honestly if it had been me, and you did this right after a break up, I would not have gotten back with you let alone married you, but thats a personal choice, not something you did "wrong"...know what I mean)

how long must you give him the nitty gritty details...did you enjoy the ons...did you climax...I didnt read the entire thread YET...

this is something counceling might fix...but I dont see it getting better with status quo...and he needs to sack up a little...crying and sobbing is ridiculous


----------



## Gabriel

I have an idea.

Let's beat this horse to death for about 10 more pages.

Christ.

Seems the only people not moving on are the people posting here. She and her husband are dealing with this in a healthy way. 

Time to let it go...

Enjoy the rest of your marriage Lacy.


----------



## Squeakr

ThePheonix said:


> I May advise continues to be don't tell a woman you don't want to commit if you want her to have confidence she picked the right dude and maintain a high romantic interest in you.


I can agree to this if the guy is unwilling to commit, but therein lies the conundrum in what is the definition of commit? In this case she and others seem to be interchanging "commit" with "getting married" just as she and others have swapped "need some space" with "we are broken up and done". Not everyone shares the same view though, as is obvious from the posts here. I have never dated much and admit to me "need some space" is not the same as "broken up" (and she called and talked to him most days) so I would have been suckered in and made the same conclusion her H made.

From his point, he was not ready for marriage, but he had committed as they were in a long term 2 year exclusive relationship. A commitment definitely existed and even she admits this. Just because he wasn't on her time frame for marriage shouldn't allow her the right to cheat on him. Just as with married couples, she should have made her intentions clearer and the ideal that she believed they were no longer a couple more distinct (by talking almost daily and still interacting like a couple and through her indistinct language she was trying to keep him while trying out the other, and this is definitely cheating).


----------



## Squeakr

NoChoice said:


> I find it fascinating, puzzling and a little troubling how people come to so many different conclusions from the same information.
> 
> ...
> 
> So maybe I am naive, maybe I am way off the mark or maybe I am just plain stupid but that is my take on this story from the information presented. A rare happy ending, hopefully.


You your self provide contradictory statements that prove your point. If you have read the facts as posted like everyone else, then one would think it was cut and dried, yet you have your "take on this story" just as everyone else does. It is how our life experiences can color and change our ideals of facts as presented.

Read my signature, as it sums it up. LOL


----------



## Squeakr

missthelove2013 said:


> I didnt read the entire thread YET...


Finish reading it, as new information comes out that really blurs the lines. When someone says they need space from you, but still interact with you, pine for you, and carry on as you were together, just slowing the pace a little, one could conceivably think they were still a couple and in the committed LTR, in which case it would be cheating. I don't think there needs to be something legal to separate the two, but the intentions need to be made discreetly clear so that there is no gray line on intent, as "in my mind, we were split up" doesn't cut it if you don't tell the other party.


----------



## Forest

Anyone else suspect troll?


----------



## Squeakr

Personal said:


> That said, absent marital vows like it or not, no one is under any obligation to be sexually faithful. So despite the fact it would be nice for some. It is naive to presume/hope that someone’s sexual partner outside of such vows is obliged to be sexually faithful.


A vow is nothing more than a promise. Why is a marriage vow any more binding or of obligation than a promise (vow essentially) made to be exclusive with another sans marriage. Why does this obligation level change once it is made at a marriage ceremony? It is possible to get married without vows, so is it the vow or marriage that raises the bar for obligation?

Few states in this day and age have laws regarding adultery and it's legality, so it would seem that the promises/vows made to a partner would hold the same obligations with or sans marriage, would it not?

Lots of states also recognize a couple as common law married when they have been together for a certain time period and no vows are exchanged in such situations, so sans these marriage vows are this couple not obligated to each other then?

Let's face it, vows are only as valid and worthy as the person making the vows, married or not (my STBXW took marriage vows, but has told me and several others she never wanted to be married to me and only did it to avoid me being embarrassed and abandoned at the alter, yes it was cold and hard to hear, so doe that mean that she never really violated those vows, or they never existed truly and therefor she never cheated "technically"??)


----------



## SamuraiJack

<gets out the sprayhose and starts washing the horse jelly down the drain...>


----------



## vellocet

soccermom2three said:


> So she used the word "space" instead of "break". I think those word are interchangeable in the dating world.


I don't think it matter what she calls it. Lets say she did a full on break up. Its clear that she fell smitten with this OM, then went home to feel out her bf, and lets just assume it was a full on break up...she did it so she could shag the new guy.

Whether it was a break up or not is irrelevant. She is wanting to know what is going through his mind and why he might be having a hard time with it.

And my guess is that he knows she broke up with him purely so she could roll in the hay with OM.


----------



## vellocet

Personal said:


> She had sex with another man when she was not in a committed relationship with her husband.


Perhaps you read something different than I. But they were in a committed relationship, he wasn't quite ready to go to the next step, marriage, or whatever OP had in mind, was already engaging in an emotional affair with OM, broke it off so she could have sex with the OM, decided it was a mistake and got back with her plan B husband. I suspect her H knows this which is why he has such a hard time with it.



> Therefore he would be well served by getting over it and crying less.


Ya, what an a**hole


----------



## vellocet

missthelove2013 said:


> Read my post...I am a HATEr of cheaters...I would be the first to chastize you if you had done something wrong
> 
> but you were broken up...tell this sobbing mess to grow a sack and get over it...jeez


She broke up with him so that she could take her already emotional bond with OM to the next physical level.

They were in a committed relationship, and from what I gather, he just wasn't ready to talk marriage just yet.

She wanted the OM, went home, grilled her then bf, and if his answers were not exactly to her liking, she was going to break it off so she could hop in the sack with OM. She then regretted it, and Plan B went into effect.

And sounds like he got over it, but the trickle truth and new information just opened an old wound. So now he is back to reliving her dumping him to shag another guy.

If a woman told me to grow a sack and get over it, I would, then I'd tell her to get the F out.




> does he expect YOU to put up with being punished for something you had every right to do...yeah maybe it wasnt the best thing for the relationship, honestly if it had been me, and you did this right after a break up, I would not have gotten back with you let alone married you


Why not?? You just said she had every right and there was nothing wrong with what she did. Why should OP's husband take this into consideration, but you yourself would not?

Seems a double standard is present here.


----------



## Squeakr

Yep seems like lots of double standards at play here.

He was committed in his mind (and every other way) to her (in an exclusive LTR and solely dating her) just not ready for marriage, so he was therefor not committed.

Yet she was taking space (meaning broken up in her mind) and still acting like they were a couple just more reserved in actions and creating more space so therefor she is considered out of the relationship and single.

In his mind doesn't count, in hers does. Double standard.

Posters say is fine for her to behave as single and sleep with whomever and be held unaccountable to anyone and she shouldn't have to answer any questions or provide details, then in the next sentence they recommend she sit down and request his history and details of actions for the same time period. 

If it is believed that she doesn't have to answer then why should they require he provide his details, double standard at work yet again. (and then to claim no sexual equality exists as an excuse. It is either all or nothing no in between should be allowed here).


----------



## vellocet

Squeakr said:


> Yep seems like lots of double standards at play here.
> 
> He was committed in his mind (and every other way) to her (in an exclusive LTR and solely dating her) just not ready for marriage, so he was therefor not committed.
> 
> Yet she was taking space (meaning broken up in her mind) and still acting like they were a couple just more reserved in actions and creating more space so therefor she is considered out of the relationship and single.
> 
> In his mind doesn't count, in hers does. Double standard.


My problem isn't that she "took space" or broke it off, however anyone wants to see it.

If she were to have taken this space, THEN met someone, that is a different story.

But she was developing an emotional relationship with this guy while still committed to her bf. And THAT is cheating, at least in my opinion. What she did after the "break up" is not cheating, but what she did before was emotional unfaithfulness. I'm now thinking she was hoping her then bf would be wishy washy about getting married so she'd have an excuse to take a break to shag the OM.

Regardless of how anyone sees it, OP is asking what is going through his mind. I'm giving her my opinion that he may be seeing it the same way I am. But we'd really have to ask him. Too bad he doesn't create an account and respond. I'd like to know his opinion on if he thinks she somewhat cheated before she broke it off with him and turned him into Plan B


----------



## Squeakr

vellocet said:


> My problem isn't that she "took space" or broke it off, however anyone wants to see it.
> 
> If she were to have taken this space, THEN met someone, that is a different story.
> 
> But she was developing an emotional relationship with this guy while still committed to her bf. And THAT is cheating, at least in my opinion. What she did after the "break up" is not cheating, but what she did before was emotional unfaithfulness. I'm now thinking she was hoping her then bf would be wishy washy about getting married so she'd have an excuse to take a break to shag the OM.
> 
> Regardless of how anyone sees it, OP is asking what is going through his mind. I'm giving her my opinion that he may be seeing it the same way I am. But we'd really have to ask him. Too bad he doesn't create an account and respond. I'd like to know his opinion on if he thinks she somewhat cheated before she broke it off with him and turned him into Plan B


I completely agree with what you are saying, but the space, break up issue does make a difference (just as much as the EA happening at the time) as she failed to tell him they were no longer exclusive. She used the space to distance herself, but still conducted herself as she was within the relationship and that is what I find issue with as well. If you want out, fine. Cut him loose and make it known that it is over (use the words it is over and there is no confusion here) and then do what you want. Don't just decide to end it solely in your mind (she admits she did this and didn't tell him and then justify the thought through his lack of marriage interest at the time) yet continue to act and carry on as if in the relationship still. It seems this was done to solely mislead him (she called and talked almost every day just didn't hang out as much or often, sounds to me like still in a relationship and obviously he thought the same) and only keep him as plan B in case things didn't work out.

If they were "truly" broken up I have no issue with the sex, but they were not "truly" broken up and she admits as such, so it is cheating.

I think he is an honorable and just man and commend him in his actions. I am glad they have a good relationship now, but with it being so fresh again, his reactions are to be expected and nothing to be ashamed of. Congrats to them both for hopefully working through this.


----------



## firebelly1

Not sure any of the ladies have answered this part of the question - but the guy cumming inside the girl or not in and of itself isn't an issue for me. Not using protection from STD's - yes. And I haven't read through the whole thread - did she get tested before she went back to her now husband? Or did she go back and sleep with him without a condom? That would be an issue. H might be thinking she had been careless about exposing him to something. But, I agree wholeheartedly that the biggest issue here is the lying.


----------



## ifweonly

norajane said:


> OP has stated that he only just told her details of her H's previous sexual encounters, or one of them anyway. What has he been _hiding _all this time? What hasn't he told her, what did he keep to himself? We don't know, neither does the OP. There may be some things that she doesn't know that would have changed her mind about marrying him if she had known.
> 
> At this point, it is long past time to let this sh*t go! They've been happily married for 20 years. That ought to be a million times more significant to their lives NOW.


Norajane -- I could not agree with you more. The lie is one thing but -- this happened 20 years ago??? He may be a head turner but needs to seriously grow up. Man, consider how much pre-marital sex goes on today, a ons with swimmers (while apart from him (current H) is not the end of the world. As you said, he is not a saint either with his past sexual encounters so he is "tainted goods" as well! I am not judging here but two wrongs do not make it right either. 

Maybe counseling would help but with his current frame of mind, I am not sure that would be successful. He just needs to get his head on straight but fast before his marriage goes South and then what will he have?


----------



## missthelove2013

vellocet said:


> She broke up with him so that she could take her already emotional bond with OM to the next physical level.
> 
> They were in a committed relationship, and from what I gather, he just wasn't ready to talk marriage just yet.
> 
> She wanted the OM, went home, grilled her then bf, and if his answers were not exactly to her liking, she was going to break it off so she could hop in the sack with OM. She then regretted it, and Plan B went into effect.
> 
> And sounds like he got over it, but the trickle truth and new information just opened an old wound. So now he is back to reliving her dumping him to shag another guy.
> 
> If a woman told me to grow a sack and get over it, I would, then I'd tell her to get the F out.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why not?? You just said she had every right and there was nothing wrong with what she did. Why should OP's husband take this into consideration, but you yourself would not?
> 
> Seems a double standard is present here.


they were NOT commtitted...she wanted committment but her husband wouldnt give it to her...only AFTER she admitted the ons did he stop pooping and got off the pot...

She probably got interested in the OM in the first place because her relationship wasnt going anywhere...

oh and nice reading the bible every night and then calling someone "pencil deek"...lmao


----------



## naiveonedave

you guys crack me up. they were in a 2 year exclusive relationship, she meets OM, likes the attention, presses BF for marriage committment, he just wants to stay as is. She gives the i need space comment, not a we are broken up declaration, runs to OM, sleeps with him on 1st date. BF finds out next day. HOW IS THIS NOT CHEATING? read the OPs post in the middle of the thread, it is exactly what happened. To the BF now H, he felt he was cheated on and now was TT'd.


----------



## Squeakr

missthelove2013 said:


> they were NOT commtitted...she wanted committment but her husband wouldnt give it to her...


By your definition. They were (buy her own admission) in an exclusive and monogamous 2 yr long term relationship, that is commitment. If your definition of commitment is solely marriage, then you are correct, but you are then saying that gay parties, or anyone else that can't legally marry for whatever reason, can never be considered committed or in a committed relationship unless their state or the federal government steps in and says they can legally marry?? 

Merriam Webster tends to disagree with you:
com·mit·ment noun \kə-ˈmit-mənt\
: a promise to do or give something

: a promise to be loyal to someone or something

: the attitude of someone who works very hard to do or support something

No where does it specify marriage. (before you say it is a promise to do or give something, and you interpret it as meaning to give marriage, would not the ideal of promising to be exclusive and not date others fit that definition as well, as he did commit this to her through his actions and declarations?)


----------



## soccermom2three

wmn1 said:


> No they aren't. Not even close. In today's world, people are starting to read it that way, not in 1994. If you want to break up, say "it's over !!!!!!!" don't say space because people will think that you want a little time t think some things through. Big difference



Umm I used the "I need space" to break up back in the early 80's when I was in high school, lol.


----------



## vellocet

missthelove2013 said:


> they were NOT commtitted...she wanted committment but her husband wouldnt give it to her


Wrong, this is what she said.


> Hubby and I dated for about seven weeks before I felt it was exclusive and we became intimate


She felt it was exclusive, IE, committed. He just wasn't ready to commit to the LEVEL she desired at the time.

You don't call someone a boyfriend of 2 years if there is no commitment. If there is no commitment then he'd be just a guy she is seeing.




> ...only AFTER she admitted the ons did he stop pooping and got off the pot...


Sure, about getting MARRIED.




> She probably got interested in the OM in the first place because her relationship wasnt going anywhere...


Well then, that makes it all better.


----------



## Squeakr

soccermom2three said:


> Umm I used the "I need space" to break up back in the early 80's when I was in high school, lol.


Yeah, but did you say it and then move on, or did you say it and then continue to essentially "date, court, and string along" your BF as plan B? 

In this case, the OP continued to talk to her H everyday and maintain the appearance of a relationship (in his mind) and only consider it done "in her mind" by her own admission and sent him mixed signals about her meaning of the phrase and what she wanted to happen.

Context changes everything! Saying "I love you" while hitting someone in the face with a frying pan has an entirely different meaning to the person being hit as opposed to saying "I love you" too your lover while in the throws of sexual passion. Still the same words and phrasing, but two entirely different meanings to the recipient due to context involved.


----------



## vellocet

ifweonly said:


> Man, consider how much pre-marital sex goes on today, a ons with swimmers (while apart from him (current H)


She already was engaging in emotional cheating while, YES, committed to his gf(otherwise she wouldn't be his gf), and she broke it off to pursue sex with the OM.

While true if they were truly broken up, the physical sex that happened is not cheating, but she DID cheat emotionally before breaking up, and broke up with a specific agenda in mind. She used now hubby as the backburner guy.

So while I'm not saying she cheated when she screwed this OM, I'm explaining to her what is more than likely going through her husband's head, because that's what she asked.




> is not the end of the world. As you said, he is not a saint either with his past sexual encounters so he is "tainted goods" as well!


I don't care what a woman has done in her sex life PRIOR to meeting me(unless she was a prostitute or something)
I DO care about what she does while trying to build something with me. If she wanted to build something with me, even though its not really cheating, breaking up for a short period of time to f*** someone else is not the way to go about it. Sounds like he was okay with it for a long time until new information came up re-opening an old wound.

For those that are telling him to man up, looks like he is working towards that. He is working out and doing something for himself for starters.


----------



## Squeakr

vellocet said:


> For those that are telling him to man up, looks like he is working towards that. He is working out and doing something for himself for starters.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Come on folks, he has found out something new about a time in his life that was traumatic. The new facts change the situation as he thought it to be and is dealing with it. Give him time. It is a really bad trigger.

Say years later, a person were to have find out that someone he/she loved dearly had not died from a choking incident as they had originally been told (say coroner's findings were inconclusive on cause of death and that is what it was labeled as) was in fact murdered through strangulation by someone, would they and should they not be allowed to grieve again, or should they just man up and move on as it was in their past and they had closed that case on the death?? This is exactly why people want answers when a decomposed skeleton is found, for closure and truth so they can move on and heal fully due to the provided answers. I mean why bother investigating such a case as it was obviously a long time ago (evident by decomposition) and finding the "details" isn't going to bring the person back, right??? Sounds like an extreme comparison, but since the person had already moved on it won't offer anything more to them except pain, so why not let it go, man up, grow a sack, and move on right??? (Actually it adds truth and closure, just what her H wants, so not really that different comparatively). the police have a reason to investigate to bring a killer to justice, but the friends really have no vested interest at this point, right?


----------



## NoChoice

LacyS,

I understand you guys may want to take this private and I understand considering the ongoing debate but could you drop a quick note to let us know the status in reality. We are genuinely interested in the outcome and I for one am hoping you are going to be a happy family again.


----------



## Hicks

If a man can't evolve past his wife's sexual past in 20 years and 2 kids later, I don't know what to say. Other than he is very weak and insecure.


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## vellocet

Hicks said:


> If a man can't evolve past his wife's sexual past in 20 years and 2 kids later, I don't know what to say. Other than he is very weak and insecure.


Yes, he's a real jerk for having feelings about being treated like he was nothing to her for her to break up to have sex with another man. He deserves to all the pain that's coming to him.

Seriously, she had a sexual past before they became a couple. That's not his issue. His issue seems to stem from how he was treated and the events that unfolded during this half assed "break" specifically so she could F another man and trickle truth him the rest of his life.


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## ThePheonix

missthelove2013 said:


> oh and nice reading the bible every night and then calling someone "pencil deek"...lmao


I think the P/D is more for the benefit of her husband than based in reality. 




naiveonedave said:


> HOW IS THIS NOT CHEATING?


Who was she cheating on, the guy that told her he wouldn't commit to her? Some of you guys have no clue about how a woman thinks. What she hears is, "I'm good enough to sleep with but not good enough for commitment". But if you believe they are going to wait around while you weigh your other option, good luck. You see how well it work for Lacy's husband
(BTW, if I'm wrong, maybe one of the ladies will step up to the plate and set me straight.)


----------



## Forest

She sure has disappeared.

Well done, but not that original. Rounding up another guy to make your current jealous? Not original.

Have unprotected revenge sex because current guy didn't do what you wanted? Not original.

Running back to him after the fling? Not original.

Lying in order to get him back? Not original.

Now, inventing a 17 year old that graduates HS a year early, and leaves for college a year early because you messed up your timeline is a little bit original.

The "shining armor" "six pack abs" "sore muscles" and general salivating over her man? Not original.

edit: forgot to add that the guy she married is sweet, wonderful and better in every way (including penis size) that the OM. However, the OM was a doctor, not some nobody just out for a quick slice. Doctors are always fair game, unmarried at 31, and have plenty of time for cruising the pharmacy counter.


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## vellocet

ThePheonix said:


> Who was she cheating on, the guy that told her he wouldn't commit to her? Some of you guys have no clue about how a woman thinks.


Going by what she says. She said he had an inability to commit, only to come back later in the thread to say she was in a committed relationship with him, but he just wasn't ready to take the next step towards marriage. She initiated a half assed "break" so she could have sex with the OM. And I'm not even saying that is cheating. But she was emotionally unfaithful to her then bf before she looked for a reason to institute a "break" so she hop in the sack with the OM for just one night.




> What she hears is, "I'm good enough to sleep with but not good enough for commitment".


She hears this while saying that she feels that their relationship was a committed one.

And if this is what she hears, then why did she sleep with the other guy so quickly with absolutely no commitment?


----------



## naiveonedave

Pheonix - she clearly cheated on her then BF, now husband, and pretty much admits this in the middle of the thread. 

EIther an EA to dump him and then come back or a PA. If I were him, based solely on what she wrote, this would be a PA to me. EA at a minimum.


----------



## missthelove2013

vellocet said:


> Wrong, this is what she said.
> 
> She felt it was exclusive, IE, committed. He just wasn't ready to commit to the LEVEL she desired at the time.
> 
> You don't call someone a boyfriend of 2 years if there is no commitment. If there is no commitment then he'd be just a guy she is seeing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sure, about getting MARRIED.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well then, that makes it all better.


I take back my statements, I am starting to see what you guys are getting at...this is a tough one as they have been married 20 years and according to op NO infidelity...I tend to believe her as she has been honest...maybe she isnt being honest with herself

I would NOT throw away 20 years over this and destroy my kids...If it were me I would make her squirm a little and forgive:smthumbup:


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## vellocet

missthelove2013 said:


> I take back my statements, I am starting to see what you guys are getting at...this is a tough one as they have been married 20 years and according to op NO infidelity...I tend to believe her as she has been honest...maybe she isnt being honest with herself
> 
> I would NOT throw away 20 years over this and destroy my kids...*If it were me I would make her squirm a little *and forgive:smthumbup:


And I didn't mean to come off harsh to you, my apologies if I did.

I can see what you are saying too. This was 20 years ago. With new info, it kind of opened up an old wound.

If this were a matter of her past partners, I'd agree, it has nothing to do with him. I just think that she simply wanted another man, however brief it would be, and used his reluctance to marriage as an excuse.

But he took her back and they married. I agree with you, even if I were him I wouldn't want to throw 20 years away on something that is on the fence of cheating or not.

I probably wouldn't end the marriage over it, but I'd reserve the right to feel like she didn't care about me that much back then to find an excuse to quickly hop in bed with someone else.

I was actually with her after reading her first post. Then when the story changed, I had to take my stance back.

Regardless, I hope they are working it out and that he can get over it in the sense that it doesn't affect the relationship. He is still justified in feeling bad when triggers happen though.

As far as the bolded part, I think he is making her squirm by working out and looking good. I can sort of feel the insecurity in her words when she described it.


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## ThePheonix

vellocet said:


> Going by what she says. She said he had an inability to commit,*only to come back later in the thread to say she was in a committed relationship with him*, but he just wasn't ready to take the next step towards marriage.


I admit I wasn't thorough in reading every post and I apparently missed this part. The best I got out of it was found at post 234 and I formulated my opinion, in part, from this: 

"_This date with the OM occurred in November of that year. The previous summer, I had decided to see if my relationship with BF/Hubby could advance to the next level. Maybe a solid commitment, hopefully an engagement_." 

and 

"_I asked BF/Hubby if he knew where our relationship was headed and he told me that he didn't know. He was happy in the moment._"

In my opinion, when you tell someone you don't know where the relationship is headed, you're telling them you're not really committed. Where have I got this wrong?

Other than this, it appears to me, at least, they weren't on the same page as to the status of their "breakup". She believed they were broken up whereas he didn't think so. As best I can tell, the closest she got to saying she expected him to commit to marriage is saying, "Maybe a solid commitment, hopefully an engagement". 

If someone could give me the post number where she better clarifies the depth of their commitment, I'd appreciate it.


----------



## 2ntnuf

I was always with her, even though I had a gut feeling she wasn't being clear or totally open and honest. I blame her for being vengeful and actually, I do think it was infidelity. That guy had to know her for a while and I think there was much more to it than just a ONS. She knew him for at least a little while. He was interesting and attractive. He was worth the risk and she knew it would either make her now husband marry her or jump ship. Either way, she was set for the future and wouldn't be alone. 

Do I think she deserves to be punished? No. I do think she could help him to forgive and trust her again. I think he will. I just think it will be much quicker if she does a little extra work in the honesty and care departments. 

I think she has probably been a pretty good wife. They've been together for what, twenty years? He just got the wind knocked out of him with that new revelation. Who needs that? 

Trouble is, I am now wondering if husband did something and that's why she related the new info? Maybe she was again being vengeful? I don't know? I don't like to think that way. It's my past that makes me think like that. So, forgive me for writing something so paranoid, if I am mistaken. 

There is a habit of trickle truth here than I think runs throughout the marriage. I don't think that's all that unusual in any marriage. I don't like it. I think my x2 would likely say I did the same thing. It's a matter of perspective. 

I think she needs to post a bit more info and then needs help to reconcile in a suitable fashion. 

Sounds like you are happy with your husband. Make it worth the time he spent with you. He can learn to do the same. You will come out with a stronger and happier marriage. Learn to communicate what is bothering you in a manner he will understand so that he can address the issues at hand, in a timely manner. 

I've still got some weird gut feelings about this thread. Good luck to you.


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## vellocet

2ntnuf said:


> Do I think she deserves to be punished? No. I do think she could help him to forgive and trust her again. I think he will. I just think it will be much quicker if she does a little extra work in the honesty and care departments.


I completely agree with the above statements.


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## ThePheonix

2ntnuf said:


> I've still got some weird gut feelings about this thread. Good luck to you.


I think I understand where you're coming from.


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## Squeakr

2ntnuf said:


> Trouble is, I am now wondering if husband did something and that's why she related the new info? Maybe she was again being vengeful? I don't know? I don't like to think that way. It's my past that makes me think like that. So, forgive me for writing something so paranoid, if I am mistaken.


What the H did from her posting is discovered after they moved to a new area that the OM was friended by a mutual friend, and through his FB profile learned that the OM now lived in the same town. This triggered the old issues back into light and when asked about it again, she changed the answer this time to the new truth. This new found truth rocked his world and he is now dealing and re-evaluating past history (there may be more she has not revealed, but that is what she has shown).


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## 2ntnuf

Squeakr said:


> What the H did from her posting is discovered after they moved to a new area that the OM was friended by a mutual friend, and through his FB profile learned that the OM now lived in the same town. This triggered the old issues back into light and when asked about it again, she changed the answer this time to the new truth. This new found truth rocked his world and he is now dealing and re-evaluating past history (there may be more she has not revealed, but that is what she has shown).


Yes, I know all of that. I just don't know why she made the mistake of bringing out new truth? I think she said she thought he was over it. What good would new truth do? I think anyone would know it would only cause more and new issues? Don't you?

Scratching my head here. This is just, off, somehow. I can't explain it. I think she would remember this if it was such a big deal, even from twenty years ago. I would. So, maybe it was not such a big deal to her? Or, it was told to hurt him for something she perceived was done to her?

Few posts? Not sure about all this.


----------



## Squeakr

2ntnuf said:


> Yes, I know all of that. I just don't know why she made the mistake of bringing out new truth? I think she said she thought he was over it. What good would new truth do? I think anyone would know it would only cause more and new issues? Don't you?
> 
> Scratching my head here. This is just, off, somehow. I can't explain it. I think she would remember this if it was such a big deal, even from twenty years ago. I would. So, maybe it was not such a big deal to her? Or, it was told to hurt him for something she perceived was done to her?
> 
> Few posts? Not sure about all this.


:iagree: Think she mentioned something about thinking it had been so long what difference would it make kind of thought process. Those of us that are BS know that it makes all the difference in the world and that is the major separator between the WS and the BS, understanding the depth the hurt goes and how easily it is triggered and hard to erase.


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## italianjob

Well, guess I'm the only one, but I don't think that this episode was somewhat a "lesser" form of cheating.

The fact that she planned the "I need space" speech to try out the new guy while keeping bf close would make it a lot worse than plain cheating for me, if I was the betrayed person, because it was premeditated and executed "in cold blood".

I agree that I wouldn't put 20 years of marriage in discussione for something like using protection or not, but if H wasn't aware at the time that the ONS didn't just happen, but was actually well planned including the technical justification of the "non cheating", well THAT piece of information would make me think a lot, if I was in his shoes...


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## 2ntnuf

Yep, that's a big one italianjob.

Still, there is that twenty years of good. They can do it. I don't think it's worth throwing it all away. It's not up to me, though. It's her husband's call. I hope he keeps his wits about him and is sure of his decision. I bet he will be.


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## italianjob

2ntnuf said:


> Yep, that's a big one italianjob.
> 
> Still, there is that twenty years of good. They can do it. I don't think it's worth throwing it all away. It's not up to me, though. It's her husband's call. I hope he keeps his wits about him and is sure of his decision. I bet he will be.


Yeah, that's a call only he can make.

I was just saying that it wouldn't be the condom/noncondom detail that would make me lose sleep, but the dynamics mentioned above.


----------



## Forest

italianjob said:


> Well, guess I'm the only one, but I don't think that this episode was somewhat a "lesser" form of cheating.
> 
> The fact that she planned the "I need space" speech to try out the new guy while keeping bf close would make it a lot worse than plain cheating for me, if I was the betrayed person, because it was premeditated and executed "in cold blood".
> 
> I agree that I wouldn't put 20 years of marriage in discussione for something like using protection or not, but if H wasn't aware at the time that the ONS didn't just happen, but was actually well planned including the technical justification of the "non cheating", well THAT piece of information would make me think a lot, if I was in his shoes...





2ntnuf said:


> Yep, that's a big one italianjob.
> 
> Still, there is that twenty years of good. They can do it. I don't think it's worth throwing it all away. It's not up to me, though. It's her husband's call. I hope he keeps his wits about him and is sure of his decision. I bet he will be.


This is the foot-stomping, vexing, exasperating thing about cheating. (because similar things also happen with already married couples)

One side mistakes the big "mistake", eventually realizes it; but then everything then everything takes a big hit. Memories, futures, all tainted for something so cheap.


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## 2ntnuf

It's easy to have sex. It's tough to make love.


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## wmn1

italianjob said:


> Well, guess I'm the only one, but I don't think that this episode was somewhat a "lesser" form of cheating.
> 
> The fact that she planned the "I need space" speech to try out the new guy while keeping bf close would make it a lot worse than plain cheating for me, if I was the betrayed person, because it was premeditated and executed "in cold blood".
> 
> I agree that I wouldn't put 20 years of marriage in discussione for something like using protection or not, but if H wasn't aware at the time that the ONS didn't just happen, but was actually well planned including the technical justification of the "non cheating", well THAT piece of information would make me think a lot, if I was in his shoes...



and it was ' in his face ' too which is troubling


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## Dyokemm

I think if Lacy and her H have had 20 years of a good M, then it would be a shame that it would end over this incident.

I hope they work it out swiftly.

I know that the TT of the ONS is what triggered Lacy's H....he had chosen to R based on a version of events she had given him, and now has found out that something which was a concern and question of his at the time was not only withheld from him, but actually lied about.

This would upset most BSs, and I'm glad he seems to be dealing with it rather quickly.

What I actually find more troublesome is a matter that I asked Lacy and she never got around to giving an answer.

After she admitted that she had not in fact broke up with her then bf, only asked for 'space' to think, and that the primary hope of hers for this space was to try out OM, I asked Lacy if she had ever told these details to her H when they reconciled.

She never made it clear if she had told her H the truth about why she had really asked for space.

If she has never admitted to her H what she admitted in these posts here, then I could see her H being even more upset.

I would hope that she was honest with him, but the fact that she said her and her H still did not agree on whether or not they were really broken up (she says in her mind she was) makes me wonder if she has ever really told him about her plan to try out OM with him as Plan B....and that THIS was the motivation behind the 'space' request.

My intuition tells me that a lot of this episode, both the 30 days of EA/flirting with Pencil and the ONS, were rugswept by them 20 years ago.


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## OptimisticPessimist

Though invariably every time I say this the OP comes back, I am nonetheless wondering whether our argumentative banter has left her running for the hills.

I say this fully acknowledging I was part of the melee.

Lacy, if you're out there please understand- we are all works in progress. While we can clue you in to trends we have discovered in the course of our experience on TAM, we are nonetheless human and thus subject to differences in opinion.

Traditionally human beings "war" with one another utilizing whatever tools they have to assert their mentality as "right" until a dominant narrative emerges- thats what all of us have been trying to do here.

If we are critical of your choices or supportive of them, we are only so in an attempt to provide you with help. If youre on the fence because of some of our diatribes, come back and speak your mind...

We do want to see you and your husband happy in the end- thats the whole purpose this forum exists...


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## LacyS

Just had a second to sign in and post. Plan to catch up on reading your posts tomorrow. I think we're going to be okay. Hubby's faith is profound at times as to how it affects his decision making. He amazes me, to be honest.

I thank, too, TAM posters who took the time to help with their insights. My dilemma was totally of my own making and, truthfully, did not see the magnitude of it until it blew up in my face. How could I have not realized this before. See, the reason I became so afraid is that Hubby is straight and narrow in his emotions. I have seen him cry softly as he watched our daughters being born and as he held them. I saw him cry the night his mother died and at her funeral. He is usually stoic. That is why when he became so upset at this, I knew a major nerve had been stomped on and I was looking at major trouble.
So again, thanks, and I'll try, this weekend, to let y'all know how its going. Hubby is fine with me posting. He says hi.


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## OptimisticPessimist

LacyS said:


> Just had a second to sign in and post. Plan to catch up on reading your posts tomorrow. I think we're going to be okay. Hubby's faith is profound at times as to how it affects his decision making. He amazes me, to be honest.
> 
> I thank, too, TAM posters who took the time to help with their insights. My dilemma was totally of my own making and, truthfully, did not see the magnitude of it until it blew up in my face. How could I have not realized this before. See, the reason I became so afraid is that Hubby is straight and narrow in his emotions. I have seen him cry softly as he watched our daughters being born and as he held them. I saw him cry the night his mother died and at her funeral. He is usually stoic. That is why when he became so upset at this, I knew a major nerve had been stomped on and I was looking at major trouble.
> So again, thanks, and I'll try, this weekend, to let y'all know how its going. Hubby is fine with me posting. He says hi.


Its almost comical that you posted directly after what I said above, and that you posted it so quickly 

Its good to hear you two are working through this situation. Maintaining the great marriage youve had is the objective- we all have wanted that regardless of our feelings towards you or your husband's actions.

Ill be looking out for your reply this weekend. I would like to stress the importance of empathizing with your husband's feelings in this as I reason that is your best chance to both be happy in the end. It sounds like you are doing this well. Good luck


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## TRy

soccermom2three said:


> What? Right in the original post she says it was brought up over and over in the marriage and he would ask more specific questions each time.


 The OP no longer says that the husband was bringing the cheating up all of the time. The OP reversed her position on this when she said in Post #25 of this thread that "Over the years, there have not been big discussions over this, in fact, when even mentioned, was just a passing comment. It was when we moved to our new city this came up again." See the OP's quote below.


LacyS said:


> Over the years, there have not been big discussions over this, in fact, when even mentioned, was just a passing comment. It was when we moved to our new city this came up again. For some reason, known only to God, he brought up the specifics of the ONS. He said, "well, at least you were sober enough to use protection." Then I said, "Oh, that wasn't really the case..." He just looked at me and our world changed at that moment.


 The OP started out trying to blame shift things to her husband, but I think she has become more transpant after being called out by some on this thread to do so. At the end of the day, she wants to save her marriage, and has taken some of the good advice to be transpant to heart.


----------



## NoChoice

LacyS said:


> Just had a second to sign in and post. Plan to catch up on reading your posts tomorrow. I think we're going to be okay. Hubby's faith is profound at times as to how it affects his decision making. He amazes me, to be honest.
> 
> I thank, too, TAM posters who took the time to help with their insights. My dilemma was totally of my own making and, truthfully, did not see the magnitude of it until it blew up in my face. How could I have not realized this before. See, the reason I became so afraid is that Hubby is straight and narrow in his emotions. I have seen him cry softly as he watched our daughters being born and as he held them. I saw him cry the night his mother died and at her funeral. He is usually stoic. That is why when he became so upset at this, I knew a major nerve had been stomped on and I was looking at major trouble.
> So again, thanks, and I'll try, this weekend, to let y'all know how its going. Hubby is fine with me posting. He says hi.


Great news Lacy,

What you call straight and narrow I see as depth. When someone thinks deeply and feels deeply they also hurt deeply. You saw it in his eyes. 

He cried softly at his daughters arrival into the world, he cried when his mother passed but he sobbed at your disclosure. Tell you anything? He had/has entrusted you with his very being. Guard it with great care as he has done yours and you guys will never be back here except to offer your own advice to others. It's rare but sometimes "and they lived happily ever after" does exist outside of fairy tales.

Sorry for all the sap.


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## missthelove2013

2ntnuf said:


> It's easy to have sex. It's tough to make love.


making love is what the woman does...while the man is f****** her brains out


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## italianjob

missthelove2013 said:


> making love is what the woman does...while the man is f****** her brains out


Wow! You're so romantic...


----------



## Thepoet

I'm a little late, and unfortunately cannot read through all 30 pages. But did want to put possibly a little insight into the hurt of the husband.

For some men, it's hard to imagine your partner having been with anyone at the ultimate intimate level. Ex-boyfriends, spouses, sexual encounters that happened before you were together are accepted because they are not in your face and not dwelled on and because they are not against the rules. This is in his face, when he sleeps with you, he probably now imagines that other dude pounding away, sharing the most intimate of his wife. And it is worse for some people condom vs no condom. 20 years ago or whenever it was, he was able to mostly come to grips with it happening with a condom. This new information ripped open the old wound and even made it deeper, because it is worse to some guys, the condom is a barrier, so it seems less intimate in his eyes (or at least he is able to mitigate it in his mind) Now he learns there was no condom, so you add the lie + it was actually even more intimate of a moment than previously. So now it's all in his face, it's very painful for some men. From his perspective, you are his special person, all of him for you, and all of you for him. But now he finds that he wasn't so special to you after all. (Anyway, can't say for sure if that is how he felt, but it certainly could be.)
Probably a good idea to just keep assuring him that he is the most special to you, and even do a little ego boosting for him in the bedroom.

It's probably best to seek counseling or a psychologist (For him or both as a couple)


----------



## TRy

ThePheonix said:


> In my opinion, when you tell someone you don't know where the relationship is headed, you're telling them you're not really committed. Where have I got this wrong?


 Where you have this wrong is that you are buying into the standard cheater speak definition of "space", and into the use of blame shifting by the cheater in rationalization their cheating. Looking thought the infidelity threads you will see a very common cheater's script that looks something like this:

1) The cheater is in an exclusive relationship.
2) The cheater meets someone that is a very viable romantic candidate that is clearly pursuing them.
3) The cheater enjoys being pursued by this viable romantic candidate and does not shut it down, even if this viable romantic candidate was someone that the exclusive relationship partner has heard about and warned the cheater to be careful with.
4) Even though there is no physical affair (PA) at this time, it becomes an emotional affair (EA), which the cheater does not recognize as cheating. 
5) This cheater then begins to looks for fault in her exclusive relationship partner that they would not have otherwise made an issue of if they did not have another viable romantic candidate pursuing them.
6) Since the cheater's exclusive relationship partner is human, no matter how good a person the exclusive relationship partner is, the cheater will always be able to find such fault as a reason to ask for "space".
7) Although the cheater knows that they are asking for space to explore this other relationship, they keep this a secret from their exclusive relationship partner so as to keep the exclusive relationship partner on the hook with them as a plan B.
8) The cheater then takes the EA physical.
9) When the cheater's exclusive relationship partner discovers that space really meant that the cheater was going to sleep with the viable romantic candidate, the exclusive relationship partner begins to end the relationship with the cheater. 
10) The cheater then continues for a short period of time to see if the new partner is willing to commit.
11) When the cheater learns that the new partner is not willing to commit, they fall back to the former exclusive relationship partner.
12) The former exclusive relationship partner is still so in love with the cheater that they rug sweep and take the cheater back, often agreeing to change in order to overcome the reason given by the cheater for wanting space.

The above is the standard cheater's script. Where has the OP not followed this script?


----------



## missthelove2013

bandit.45 said:


> Lacy you got him to marry you under false pretenses.
> 
> You knew if he found out you slept with the doctor he would have never married you.
> 
> You walked down that aisle, you made vows and you lied to his face.


she told him BEFORE he married her
20 happy years later she told him they didnt use protection and he is upset again


----------



## ThePheonix

TRy said:


> Where you have this wrong is that you are buying into the standard cheater speak definition of "space", and into the use of blame shifting by the cheater in rationalization their cheating.


What you itemized is what the "cheater" does. I agree with you if Lacy would have first proffered the "space" scenario. I don't see this being the case. 

Bear in mind that, based on the story, the boyfriend had first verbally expressed that he was unwilling to commit. From a quote from well into the thread she said, _"I asked BF/Hubby if he knew where our relationship was headed and he told me that he didn't know. He was happy in the moment."_

It is my impression that, but for the boyfriend expressly stating he didn't know where he was going with the relationship, she would have never dated the doctor.

What still remains speculative and subject to assumption, is the status of Lacy's and her boyfriend's relationship at the time of the infamous date. Some have the opinion they had not really broken up because the boyfriend didn't want to breakup. Whatever schism occurred purportedly went on for a month so its hard for me to believe everything was honky dory between these two and the boyfriend was contented thinking everything was as it should be.

 I hope Lacy come back a clarifies the nature of the breakup that led to this experiment with the doctor.


----------



## ThePheonix

missthelove2013 said:


> 20 happy years later she told him they didnt use protection and he is upset again


Whoever said, "let sleeping dogs lie" was a genius.


----------



## TRy

ThePheonix said:


> Bear in mind that, based on the story, the boyfriend had first verbally expressed that he was unwilling to commit.


 He was willing to commit to being in an exclusive relationship and was in fact in one. What he was unsure of was if he was willing to get married to her right now like she wanted. In almost every exclusive relationship, it is common for one party to want to commit to marriage before the other, but this does not mean that their exclusive relationship automatically comes to and end unless that is clearly stated such that both parties understand this.

The truth be told the OP thought that she had a shot at a doctor. Her landing a doctor would have dramatically changed her social standing for life, so she took the shot. She deliberately looked for an excuse to ask for space, but did not tell her boyfriend her real intentions so that she could keep him on the hook if the doctor did not work out. She had sex on the first date, was on top, and did not use a condom because she was trying to give the doctor the best sex that she could in trying to land him. As soon as the boyfriend found out he manned up and began to detach thus forcing her to choose between the sure thing and a maybe. Forced to choose, she picked the sure thing.

I often agree with you, and I am surprised that you do not see the clear deception by her in all of this.


----------



## italianjob

LacyS said:


> Sorry, I've been away for a bit, grocery store night. I'll try to answer some of your questions for clarification. But first, thanks for the advice.
> In terms of being broken up, the truth is that when I told him that I needed my space, it was to open the door for the other guy who was beginning to show interest in me and I became interested in him. I have to be honest here, it wasn't a severe all ties breakup. My boyfriend/hubby was calling every day or every other day, but by this time, I was being mean to him. Doing the 180, as y'all say. Perhaps that made him more interested. Looking back now, my BF/Hubby was coming on so strong, it made me resentful. It made the OM more interesting. Could BF/Hubby have dated other people with my approval. I don't know. My mind had suddenly gone elsewhere. The ONS guy and I had one more lunch date the following week and, really, there was no chemistry. As much as I wanted there to be. None.
> By this time, BF/Hubby had started to disappear from the scene. He wasn't calling anymore. I eventually called him early on a Saturday morning and we began to iron things out.
> The reason, as already stated, that I told him that a condom was used was because of being afraid he would think about STDs. I never, I mean NEVER thought the other would hurt him to this point.
> 
> ------- this below is from another poster, it helps me understand what I'm dealing with----------------------
> "In general, please understand, many men find that to be the ultimate in emasculation or betrayal. Allowing another man to do that is the worst. To do that is to give some other guy your complete physical self. There is nothing more you can give a man in that regard. It's total surrender. To your H, it feels like a loss of ownership (for lack of a better word) to his most prized possession. The feeling is hard to describe." End Quote.


@ThePhoenix:
I think this post by OP clarifies quite well the dynamics, and i think Try's analysis is spot on.

In fact, as I already stated, If I were the husband what would really really bother me would be this "cold blood planning" of the "pencil incident" by Lacy, rather than the Exchange of bloody fluids or use of a condom...


----------



## ThePheonix

Try, in her post 234 she said, "_This date with the OM occurred in November of that year. The previous summer, I had decided to see if my relationship with BF/Hubby could advance to the next level. Maybe a solid commitment, hopefully an engagement." _

I don't interpret this as her saying anything less than marriage is non-negotiable. Her explanation of the status of their relationship is a little vague. I said I hope she comes back a clarifies. I think we've all put a lot of thought and effort into what really went on. From what I got from the first post, she wasn't 100% certain he wasn't seeing others.


----------



## Graywolf2

To me it doesn’t matter what understanding the OP had with her future husband. When asked what she was doing that night the OP said that she was going on a date with the OM. So she was honest before she touched the OM. 

If I were her husband her going on that date wouldn’t have bother me much. I would chalk it up to her making me jealous, which it did. 

What would drive me crazy is how eager she was to go all the way. Just going out and a kiss goodnight would have been enough to do the job. She was so excited to tell him about it too. The OM must have thought he’d died and gone to heaven. 

*You say that you have a condom? We won’t need that. Hold still while I get on top. *

The fact that she literally jumped on the OM so quickly makes me think that her main motivation was to have something juicy to tell her future husband when he asked about it the next day. (She knew he would ask because he was upset about the date and may not ask about a second date). 

When she saw the look on his face she backed off telling him about the lack of a condom.

If she really thought of the OM was prime marriage material she would have restrained herself on the first date. Especially back then. At the very least she would have made him work a little for it. You want the potential husband to think you’re the kind of girl he can take home to his mother.

A juicy story was more importent than maximising her chances of marrying the OM.


----------



## bandit.45

missthelove2013 said:


> she told him BEFORE he married her
> 20 happy years later she told him they didnt use protection and he is upset again


Thank you for the correction. I misread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## italianjob

Graywolf2 said:


> To me it doesn’t matter what understanding the OP had with her future husband. When asked what she was doing that night the OP said that she was going on a date with the OM. So she was honest before she touched the OM.
> 
> If I were her husband her going on that date wouldn’t have bother me much. I would chalk it up to her making me jealous, which it did.
> 
> What would drive me crazy is how eager she was to go all the way. Just going out and a kiss goodnight would have been enough to do the job. She was so excited to tell him about it too. The OM must have thought he’d died and gone to heaven. You say that you have a condom? We won’t need that. Hold still while I get on top.
> 
> I think the motivation for the OP to be so aggressive was less passion and more so that she could tell her future husband about it.


Kinda makes you wonder what would have happened if Dr. Pencil had turned out to be Dr. Large Cuban Cigar 

just a joke


----------



## Q tip

ThePheonix said:


> Whoever said, "let sleeping dogs lie" was a genius.


The dog said that...


----------



## ThePheonix

You have to remember the boyfriend chose to marry her despite knowing she's slept with the OM. If, like some suggest, he was pressured into marriage, that's his fault. Additionally, this business that he was willing to overlook the "date" but go nuts when he discover it was a bareback ride is a little over the top.
Why she brought this up 20 years later is perplexing. Talk about adding fuel to the fire.


----------



## FalconKing

Personal said:


> I concur that it is a good idea for people to display sexual faithfulness in a committed sexual relationship (noting that sans marriage vows and sometimes even with them, commitment can be a moving goal post dependant upon the person/s involved).
> 
> That said, absent marital vows like it or not, no one is under any obligation to be sexually faithful. So despite the fact it would be nice for some. It is naive to presume/hope that someone’s sexual partner outside of such vows is obliged to be sexually faithful.


No one is under any obligation to do anything, when concerning others. With that being said, It is not naive to want someone that displays a certain kind of behavior. It would be naive, in my opinion, to expect someone to display sexual faithfulness just because you are putting a ring on their finger. 



> Since we are all animals, I have no problem with promiscuity, monogamy and polygamy, which includes: polygyny, polyandry & polygynandry. At the end of the day, whether we like it or not, human animals have and will continue to mate in those before mentioned ways. As long as it’s adult and consensual, all is fine by me.
> 
> So monogamy is neither here nor there, unless it matters to the person/s in a consenting sexual relationship. Which of course leads to the problem of differing perspectives and expectations.


Monogamy is important to people who want monogamous relationships. If one person is onboard while the other person isn't, then the one not being monogamous is doing wrong in the relationship. It doesn't matter if they are married or not. This isn't about types of relationships and what we should deem acceptable. You are making it about that. This is about you specifically saying that unless people are married, it's not a big deal if someone is not faithful in a relationship. 



> Unless one is determined to suffer disappointment, it is a fool’s errand to expect our partners to share all of our values, no matter how much they love you. Since no one is perfect, mistakes and omission (deliberate or unintended) will always appear.


No one is saying any of that. But it is important for people to have certain values in common. Everyone has their flaws but you have every right to decide what matters and should matter to you in deciding a spouse. 




> Since there’s nothing wrong with trying to find what suits you best. As long as one doesn’t have unrealistic expectations, I’m all for encouraging and demanding shared values with sexual partners


This contradicts what you've said in this post and even this thread. I think all of us posting here would agree with that. What I don't agree with is waiting for I am married for this value to appear in a person. Otherwise them doing whatever they want until the wedding day and their partner having not right to complain. You seem to think that's how it should work. 




> That being the case, you are no better or worse than someone who chooses to sleep around, since their preferences and values although different than yours with respect to sex are equally valid.


I am not saying I am better than anyone. But here is the thing. Some people are saying that they don't want a partner that just sleeps with anybody. Your stance is that if a man says he doesn't want a woman that is highly promiscuous than it is about gender inequality and oppression of women. So obviously you think a man who thinks this way seeks to oppress women. And since you don't care anything about that, you are the superior man and your views are about gender equality:yay: So I feel you are the one who thinks he is special. What about a woman who doesn't want a promiscuous man? What about a gay woman who doesn't want a promiscuous lover? Is she a detriment to woman's rights? 

Let me be clear though. I understand very well that since the beginning of time men(but not all men) have seeked to oppress female sexuality. But if a man is asking something of a woman that he shares himself, there is no oppression. Is it such a leap of logic to say sometimes MEN seek shared values? 





> Since I have never asserted what you suggest, I find it disappointing that you have chosen to verbal me through your misrepresentation.
> 
> Your false presentation of my argument is contradictory, therefore I concur your misrepresentation is not rational. Seriously, it is a contradiction to suggest that one shouldn’t choose to not have sex with someone while they believe that one should choose to have sex with someone.
> 
> Of course I think it’s okay for adults to have sex with whomever they want. That said, I don’t believe it is a terrible thing that someone wouldn’t want someone who would have sex with whomever they want. Since I believe all of us have a right to self-determination and control of our own body.
> 
> Disappointing though it may be, I am cognisant of the fact that some (unfortunately in my opinion) want to have sex with others that are not allowed to have sex with whomever they want (I encourage you to carefully reread what you wrote).


:circle:




> Exactly! That is why I qualify what I write by saying things like, I think, I (don't) believe, from my experience, as far as I'm concerned, I can/not see etc. and so on.
> 
> Perhaps you missed those descriptors earlier?


No I didn't. You just didn't use them. Maybe you are not as polite as you would like to think. Go back and read your first few posts on this thread. 





> You've now mentioned "better man" more than once, from my perspective such a comparison is superfluous, I couldn't care less about whoever is a (subjective) better man.
> 
> I've sometimes known a considerable amount of detail about what some women have experienced sexually before me. Likewise I have known nothing at all, and have also learned some things that have been revealed over time. Yet knowing something or nothing at all does not perturb me.
> 
> At the end of the day, terrific though it is, it's only sex! Instead of getting my knickers in a knot, I'd rather enjoy the fun.


Maybe some people attach meaning to it. I think sometimes what people value in others is how freely or less freely they give it to other people. Example: Maybe it means a lot to that girl if she kisses that guy. Because she doesn't kiss just anybody and maybe he made her feel as though it was just as special to him. What if she then finds out he makes out with random girls every weekend. She shouldn't feel hurt or devastated? It's a value she thought they shared or at least it's an act she felt he attached significant weight to. Is she not allowed to feel this way?



And no disrespect respect to your relationship but I think you did your fair share of belittling as well in this thread.


----------



## txderbydad

The one thing I get from this is that after 20 years, your husband hasn't gotten over it. 

I found out my wife, who I have been with for 18 years as of 9/1 and married almost 17 years, started having an affair 7 months ago. It's been difficult for me. When I first found out, I asked a lot of pointed, specific questions. I needed to know things. I also found out that my wife hadn't used protection with this guy because he had a clean STD panel. But as I was never aware, that fact was of little importance to me. She told me that she viewed it that she was in two monogamous relationships (apparently she doesn't understand what that word means) and that she never had sex with us on the same day, so she didn't understand what the big deal was. Of course, I later found out that this too was a lie. I stopped having sex with her without a condom, and then we stopped having sex at all.


----------



## wmn1

txderbydad said:


> The one thing I get from this is that after 20 years, your husband hasn't gotten over it.
> 
> I found out my wife, who I have been with for 18 years as of 9/1 and married almost 17 years, started having an affair 7 months ago. It's been difficult for me. When I first found out, I asked a lot of pointed, specific questions. I needed to know things. I also found out that my wife hadn't used protection with this guy because he had a clean STD panel. But as I was never aware, that fact was of little importance to me. She told me that she viewed it that she was in two monogamous relationships (apparently she doesn't understand what that word means) and that she never had sex with us on the same day, so she didn't understand what the big deal was. Of course, I later found out that this too was a lie. I stopped having sex with her without a condom, and then we stopped having sex at all.


I am sorry to hear this and her behavior is inappropriate. Talking about a sudden change of moral values.

What are you doing about it ?

And yes, the STD thing is sugar coating on top of a pile of S###. The fact that she is cheating would, to me, make the STD argument almost meaningless. The cheatingaspect would be the destructive part. And how someone could do this after 18 years and then downplay it's significance is scary as heck.

And you are right there is no such thing as 2 monogamous relationships simultaneously. That is like saying I want to be in hell and heaven at the same time. It makes no sense


----------



## txderbydad

wmn1 said:


> I am sorry to hear this and her behavior is inappropriate. Talking about a sudden change of moral values.
> 
> What are you doing about it ?


Indeed. I asked her how her affair meshed with her Christianity, and she said it would have to be something she asked for forgiveness for. I told her that was great, but what I remembered of scripture, you first had to repent before you could be forgiven for your sins. She didn't like that at all, as she has made it clear she still plans to see her lover. Heck, she saw him last night and this morning. 

As for what I'm doing about it: I have retained counsel and have followed the advice of my family lawyer. I have simply and rationally tried to talk sense into my wife, and tell her how destructive her actions were, but through all of it I have told her I was willing to work and forgive as long as she was willing to stop seeing her lover. She made it clear she was not. The more logical I make my arguments, the more she digs in.

As a work-from-home dad, I am a very involved father and do a fair bit of the child raising, and my lawyer says I have an excellent shot at getting the kids. Given my wife's fantasy land behavior, and the fact that she routinely goes out until 2-3 AM in the morning multiple nights a week with her lover, and then can't be bothered to be a mom, I don't think I trust her and her decision making abilities to raise kids. Last week I finally bit the bullet and filed for divorce. Even after all the betrayal and pain she's caused, it was still the hardest decision I've ever faced in my life.



> And yes, the STD thing is sugar coating on top of a pile of S###. The fact that she is cheating would, to me, make the STD argument almost meaningless. The cheating aspect would be the destructive part. And how someone could do this after 18 years and then downplay it's significance is scary as heck.


18 years, and we are a large family. Somehow she thinks everything is going to be OK. I have gone so far as to run the numbers for her, and she doesn't care. She only sees 60% of the income for alimony and child support, and thinks she can survive as the single mother of 8 (16-2) and go to college to become a nurse.



> And you are right there is no such thing as 2 monogamous relationships simultaneously. That is like saying I want to be in hell and heaven at the same time. It makes no sense


Agreed. She's gone off the deep end. Our marriage counselor doesn't have a high opinion of her, and when I did a solo session to talk over filing for divorce, she shouted "GOOD!" when I told her I had come to the decision to file. Since she's supposed to be impartial, I found that interesting.


----------



## NoChoice

Graywolf2 said:


> To me it doesn’t matter what understanding the OP had with her future husband. When asked what she was doing that night the OP said that she was going on a date with the OM. So she was honest before she touched the OM.
> 
> If I were her husband her going on that date wouldn’t have bother me much. *I would chalk it up to her making me jealous, which it did.
> 
> What would drive me crazy is how eager she was to go all the way. Just going out and a kiss goodnight would have been enough to do the job. She was so excited to tell him about it too. The OM must have thought he’d died and gone to heaven.
> 
> You say that you have a condom? We won’t need that. Hold still while I get on top.
> 
> The fact that she literally jumped on the OM so quickly makes me think that her main motivation was to have something juicy to tell her future husband when he asked about it the next day. (She knew he would ask because he was upset about the date and may not ask about a second date). *
> 
> When she saw the look on his face she backed off telling him about the lack of a condom.
> 
> *If she really thought of the OM was prime marriage material she would have restrained herself on the first date. Especially back then. At the very least she would have made him work a little for it. You want the potential husband to think you’re the kind of girl he can take home to his mother.*
> 
> A juicy story was more importent than maximising her chances of marrying the OM.


There is a great deal of speculation as to why this happened and the information in the bolded paragraphs above is what has me convinced this was all for her H, then BF. Look at her character for one. She has been with only 3 men in her life, only two prior to the OM affair. Not what you would call promiscuous, wouldn't you agree? Her first was a long running sweetheart in high school and the other was a 2 year *EXCLUSIVE* relationship with H, then BF. Now some argue that 2 years of anyone's life isn't sufficient to be considered "committed" which I find implausible. I know of marriages that haven't lasted that long. Also, she said "I need space" and even said in one of her posts she needed to "sort things out" in her mind. She never said "we"re done get out of my life" and in fact they communicated and saw each other regularly during the month that she was "having space". In fact, her H, then BF, called her that Saturday to see if she wanted to do something and that's how he found out about the date with OM that night. It made him angry and I believe that is what she wanted. When she saw his anger it spurned her on to push harder and she did. Remember her H, then BF, had to court her for 7 weeks to have intimacy with her and this guy gets it in less than 7 hours, come on that is way out of character and against her religious convictions. There was alcohol involved and I believe that was for her to numb the feeling of what she was going to do thinking, for whatever reason, that she had to do something to get H, then BF, to move ahead. Another thing, if they were done why did he (H, then BF) call to ask how the date went and why did she ASK HIM OVER to explain the details face to face?? Why didn't she say "none of your business leave me alone" and go in full pursuit of the OM, doctor Pencil. I fully believe that this was a very poorly thought out plan to get H, then BF, to "commit". The thing is, it worked but with ramifications, hence here we are. She had one more date with OM to have lunch and said "the chemistry wasn't there". Now keep in mind that they had talked many times before the date and there was no mention of lack of chemistry anytime before that but suddenly no chemistry?? Really?? That's why I said in a previous post that in a twisted, weird way it could almost be flattering that someone would go so far out of character to manipulate someone into "committing" to them. Anyway, I see too many incongruities to believe that this was an earnest pursuit of OM. Another thing, how common is it for cheaters to do a 180?? I know it happens but isn't it somewhat rare? After only a 2 year exclusive relationship she decides to "cheat", as some have called it, with OM but after 20 years of marriage not one incident of infidelity? 20 years, really?? That says to me that she doesn't have the character of a cheater but rather had the mentality of a 21 y.o. with a plan, however dangerous and poorly thought out. Something to consider.... You know the beauty of this....I could be dead wrong, wouldn't be the first time.


----------



## Graywolf2

NoChoice said:


> Another thing, if they were done why did he (H, then BF) call to ask how the date went and why did she ASK HIM OVER to explain the details face to face?? Why didn't she say "none of your business leave me alone" and go in full pursuit of the OM, doctor Pencil.
> 
> She had one more date with OM to have lunch and said "the chemistry wasn't there". Now keep in mind that they had talked many times before the date and there was no mention of lack of chemistry anytime before that but suddenly no chemistry?? Really??
> 
> That's why I said in a previous post that in a twisted, weird way *it could almost be flattering that someone would go so far out of character to manipulate someone into "committing" to them*.



:iagree:


----------



## TRy

ThePheonix said:


> Try, in her post 234 she said, "_This date with the OM occurred in November of that year. The previous summer, I had decided to see if my relationship with BF/Hubby could advance to the next level. Maybe a solid commitment, hopefully an engagement." _
> 
> I don't interpret this as her saying anything less than marriage is non-negotiable. Her explanation of the status of their relationship is a little vague.


 When she said "a solid commitment, hopefully an engagement" she was talking about marriage. She wanted either a solid commitment that they were going to get married or an actual engagements to be married; she was not talking about an engagement to go study. But regardless of her reason for cheating, she cheated. She was in a 2 year exclusive relationship and less than a year later they were not only engaged but actually married; they were in the middle of a real relationship and not just casually dating. It was thus reasonable for him to assume that as she was talking to him every day of that month, pressuring him to commit to marriage by asking for space, that space did not mean that they were no longer exclusive unless she specifically spelled that out to him, which she did not.

Like so many cheaters before her, she wanted her cake and eat to. So she was deceptive to tie up the sure thing guy, as she took her shot at the marry a doctor lottery. Immediately after learning about her date and thus learning about what she really meant when she said space, he detached and began to move on, forcing her in a week to drop the doctor. Has she told him her true meaning when she said space, he would have moved on not giving her the month that she needed to make her move on the doctor.


----------



## TRy

italianjob said:


> Kinda makes you wonder what would have happened if Dr. Pencil had turned out to be Dr. Large Cuban Cigar


 What makes you think that he was really Dr. Pencil and not Dr. Cigar? What did you expect her to tell her husband? I talk about transparency being the right thing to do, but on this one topic I would expect her to lie if she valued his feelings as a man.


----------



## PhillyGuy13

txderbydad said:


> ?..*She told me that she viewed it that she was in two monogamous relationships (apparently she doesn't understand what that word means) and that she never had sex with us on the same day, so she didn't understand what the big deal was..*.


This is one of the most ridiculous, lamest, and hilarious justifications I've read on here... Tx I'm sorry for your troubles hope all works out for you.


----------



## bandit.45

I think she mentioned her husband was the better lover. Probably why she stuck with man # 1.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

OptimisticPessimist said:


> What she did however was different. First, she did not say "Im breaking up with you"- she said "I need some space." That is _often_ female code-speak for "I am just not that into you and need to see if I can find someone better while keeping you around as plan B." Not always, but often. To be able to tell, you need to consider other information and make a judgement call.


I've read that women are socially trained to give 'soft' rejections as a defence mechanism. This is why they say vague things like "I'm busy that night," or "I don't feel like it right now," to avoid hurting any feelings, when they really mean "I wouldn't date you if you were the last man on Earth," or "I will never feel like it." Because if they come out and say those latter statements, guys get mad at them and won't let them walk away unscathed. However, the guy doesn't hear a firm rejection from the first type of statement, because guys are trained to be more direct. He hears an invitation to ask her out again on a different night.

So when a woman says "I need space" what she really means is "I don't want to date you anymore." But when a guy is told "I need space" what he hears is "let's slow down on how often we see each other."


----------



## turnera

Wide, sweeping generalizations abound on this thread.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

Hopeful Cynic said:


> I've read that women are socially trained to give 'soft' rejections as a defence mechanism. This is why they say vague things like "I'm busy that night," or "I don't feel like it right now," to avoid hurting any feelings, when they really mean "I wouldn't date you if you were the last man on Earth," or "I will never feel like it." Because if you come out and say those latter statements, guys get mad at them and won't let them walk away unscathed. However, the guy doesn't hear a firm rejection from the first type of statement, because guys are trained to be more direct. He hears an invitation to ask her out again on a different night.


I've never thought of it this way, but I have to say it makes a lot of sense. Without the protections of society (and even that isnt enough as evidenced by the sickos out there), harsh rejection could lead to physical conflict that a woman usually cannot win. Great point! As I am a man, I likely missed this because being direct doesnt present me with a risk that would make me feel vulnerable. 

I will mention that this is a man she had been seeing for 2 years, and thus the chance of some retaliation in a way that would need to be defended against is unlikely (mentally or physically). I would also mention that it still leaves the man in limbo if he fails to understand what "I need some space" means. However, it does cast that statement in a much less manipulative light (potentially).



Hopeful Cynic said:


> So when a woman says "I need space" what she really means is "I don't want to date you anymore." But when a guy is told "I need space" what he hears is "let's slow down on how often we see each other."


To be clear, myself and most regulars here know what this means. I think there is a large contingent of men who do not due to cultural changes that have happened since the second wave of feminism.

Further, even if she had the _right_ to pursue the doctor, I can still understand how that whole experience might make her current husband uncomfortable. I mean, she ended up attracted to another man and slept with him while he was still interested in her.

You make great points though- I have to rethink the "sinister" aspect I attached to the OP's behavior, at least in some ways.


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

turnera said:


> Wide, sweeping generalizations abound on this thread.


Not to try and add you to the melee, but care to mention them? I think most of us are open to have our beliefs challenged. No pressure- just curious. 

I also think most of us are waiting on the OP for a bigger update (if she so chooses). Apparently this topic hits home because it has taken off like wildfire..


----------



## FalconKing

OptimisticPessimist said:


> I've never thought of it this way, but I have to say it makes a lot of sense. Without the protections of society (and even that isnt enough as evidenced by the sickos out there), harsh rejection could lead to physical conflict that a woman usually cannot win. Great point! As I am a man, I likely missed this because being direct doesnt present me with a risk that would make me feel vulnerable.




This is something I had learned too. As a man, there are so many things I am oblivious to that women struggle with. One time I was with a lady friend at a supermarket late at night. As we were leaving I was just walking about slowly to the car with not a care in the world. She laughed and told me how nice it must be to be a man. She wasn't malicious but she explained to me that whenever she is shopping late at night she walks really fast to her car and doesn't talk to anybody. Guys hanging out in parking lots, cat calling, etc.. I've never had to worry about that so I never thought about it. 



Also a guy friend was telling me he was at a club with a female friend. She was at the bar and some guy was rubbing her leg and whispering something in her ear. When my friend came to sit by her the other guy left. She then cried and thanked my friend for coming. He told me the story and we were both perplexed as to why she didn't just stopped the guy. When I told this story to a female friend she told me that the girl was probably afraid of what the guy might do to her if she showed him any resistance. My mind was blown. NEVER had I thought of that and it gave me a new found understanding of what women go thru in similar situations. All those times a dude was really pushy on a woman and he thought she was into it but she could've be frighten to death!


----------



## OptimisticPessimist

FalconKing said:


> This is something I had learned too. As a man, there are so many things I am oblivious too that women struggle with. One time I was with a lady friend at a supermarket late at night. As we were leaving I was just walking about slowly to the car with not a care in the world. She laughed and told me how nice it must be to be a man. She wasn't malicious but she explained to me that whenever she is shopping late at night she walks really fast to her car and doesn't talk to anybody. Guys hanging out in parking lots, cat calling, etc.. I've never had to worry about that so I never thought about it.
> 
> Also a guy friend was telling me he was at a club with a female friend. She was at the bar and some guy was rubbing her leg and whispering something in her ear. When my friend came to sit by her the other guy left. She then cried and thanked my friend for coming. He told me the story and we were both perplexed as to why she didn't just stopped the guy. When I told this story to a female friend she told me that the girl was probably afraid of what the guy might do to her if she showed him any resistance. My mind was blown. NEVER had I thought of that and it gave me a new found understanding of what women go thru in similar situations. All those times a dude was really pushy on a woman and he thought she was into it but she could've be frighten to death!


My girlfriend has the same fears about parking lots. Strangely, I never really connected it to this situation or "I need space." Its actually something to at least consider with much female behavior, so its good it was mentioned. 

It is a foreign concept to a man indeed. I will say despite all our banter on some of these threads where TAM regulars argue, it can be helpful at times (like this one). I learned something from it- hopefully most of the rest have as well. 

Thankfully by her last post we havent scared off the OP as a result


----------



## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: A Question For Men...*



TRy said:


> What makes you think that he was really Dr. Pencil and not Dr. Cigar? What did you expect her to tell her husband? I talk about transparency being the right thing to do, but on this one topic I would expect her to lie if she valued his feelings as a man.


......I'd expect lies ....period. The value of 'her man's' feelings ...be damned. Cheaters lie ....that's a given. Transparency .....is a nice concept ....but I seldom think that the 'good Windex' is used to achieve it 100% of the time...


----------



## 2ntnuf

Hurtin_Still said:


> ......I'd expect lies ....period. The value of 'her man's' feelings ...be damned. Cheaters lie ....that's a given. Transparency .....is a nice concept ....but I seldom think that the 'good Windex' is used to achieve it 100% of the time...


Actually, this is true in most marriages. Oops another generalization. At least this is what I have found. You don't have to be in a relationship to find this. All you have to do is have a friend and talk. 

Everyone wants to be nice and not hurt another's feelings. Some take this to the extreme and will not tell major things which might upset another. It's part of what you find out when you are dating. 

Can I accept the level of honesty which s/he presents in everyday/committed life? How much does s/he stretch the truth and can I see beyond it? Does it anger me or can I live with it? 

And the big one, is it more or less as much as I stretch the truth?

I do believe some of this is a built in defense of our brains. In fact, I've read that our brains make up things to fill in the blanks when necessary because we need to know enough to come to a conclusion and move forward and live our lives. 

Our brains will protect us. They will form theories and conclusions. Some will be perceived as lies. According to the actual truth, which none of us know because it takes in all aspects, perceptions and opinions of any situation, we are all lying from someone else's perspective.


----------



## missthelove2013

bandit.45 said:


> I think she mentioned her husband was the better lover. Probably why she stuck with man # 1.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


or she couldnt bring herself to tell husband that he was really Dr Zuchinni and was the best f*** she ever had...I mean who in their right mind admits to an affair AND that the ap was better sexually in all regards...

that would be an interesting thread...how many ws admitted that their ap was better in bed...revenge or purposely trying to hurt the bs doesnt count...


----------



## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: A Question For Men...*



2ntnuf said:


> Our brains will protect us. They will form theories and conclusions.


.....or ...in many instances ....our brains can slowly destroy us .....by forming theories and conclusions. 

....lies of omission .....are ....nevertheless lies.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Hurtin_Still said:


> .....or ...in many instances ....our brains can slowly destroy us .....by forming theories and conclusions.
> 
> ....lies of omission .....are ....nevertheless lies.


Please expand on this. I understand that our brains can slowly destroy us. Thank you for reminding me.

The lies of omission...not sure I understand that part. Please help me to understand what you are writing about. You may pm me if necessary. I am intrigued.


----------



## Chaparral

turnera said:


> Wide, sweeping generalizations abound on this thread.


:rofl:This hasn't been a thread in quite awhile, this is a dog chasing its tail into outer space.


----------



## Q tip

Well, at 21, she finally grew up and made the best choice ever in her life. She's with a decent man who saw where he was in all of this, got hurt and made the finest decision in his life.

Why don't we celebrate this with them. She discovered that her "little" lie and childish actions hurt him deeply and came to that realization (maybe) with our help.

This is a happy ending that went backwards into the past. Not the other way around.

Cheers to OP for digging this up and slaying it. 

Live long and cherish each other. Hip hip, hooray!

And close this thread...!


----------



## NoChoice

Q tip said:


> Well, at 21, she finally grew up and made the best choice ever in her life. She's with a decent man who saw where he was in all of this, got hurt and made the finest decision in his life.
> 
> Why don't we celebrate this with them. She discovered that her "little" lie and childish actions hurt him deeply and came to that realization (maybe) with our help.
> 
> This is a happy ending that went backwards into the past. Not the other way around.
> 
> Cheers to OP for digging this up and slaying it.
> 
> Live long and cherish each other. Hip hip, hooray!
> 
> 
> And close this thread...!


:iagree::iagree::iagree:Absolutely.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: A Question For Men...*



2ntnuf said:


> Please expand on this. I understand that our brains can slowly destroy us. Thank you for reminding me.
> 
> The lies of omission...not sure I understand that part. Please help me to understand what you are writing about. You may pm me if necessary. I am intrigued.


.......the 'real' truth ....is only realized in 100% truthful transparency. Its a simple concept. That said ... the fact that someone is betrayed ...is a lie. The one who does the betrayal ...is lying about the commitment that they supposedly made. That's only the start of the trip to hell. If 100% truthful transparency is bestowed upon the betrayed party ...and all the details are put on the table ....there is of course the pain that the betrayed person will endure. But ...(and this is my opinion) ....I don't care how 'healed' the betrayed party eventually will state that they are .....the initial lie of betrayal will always be a nagging pebble in their shoe ...however small. That lie ....gets the mind to try and put other puzzle pieces into the frame ...whether they fit there ...or belong there ....or are completely imaginary. That's the part that mind plays in destroying the betrayed .....even if it's small destruction ...or if it occurs once in a blue moon.

.....regarding the lies of omission, info withheld ...is no less a lie than info that comes out immediately. When inquiring about condom vs no condom as a detail of an affair / ONS ...etc ....getting an answer such as, "I can't remember" ...is unacceptable ....and complete Bull S--t. (as was / is the story my wife has fed me ....immediately after her supposed ONS ...and for the past 20 years). 


......info withheld on purpose ...is just as damaging as twisted info that's spoonfed to the betrayed party.


----------



## OhGeesh

Very weird story it was 20 years ago? My wife banged a billion people back in the day as did I......who cares? Of course I can get mad at the thought of my wife banging some dude, but the reality is it was 20 years ago

AND WHO IS SHE MARRIED TOO???

ME......    your husband should remember that.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Maybe she got tired of trying. ;P


----------



## 2ntnuf

Hurtin_Still said:


> .......the 'real' truth ....is only realized in 100% truthful transparency. Its a simple concept.


Yes, it's simple in purest form. It's not so simple when humans are involved. There is no human whose transparency is 100% truthful. It's not possible. Our memories alone, are not that good. 



Hurtin_Still said:


> That said ... the fact that someone is betrayed ...is a lie.


Huh? I think you try to explain that below. 



Hurtin_Still said:


> The one who does the betrayal ...is lying about the commitment that they supposedly made.


Many did not lie. They just believed in what they were doing at the time. 



Hurtin_Still said:


> That's only the start of the trip to hell.


I agree with that. 



Hurtin_Still said:


> If 100% truthful transparency is bestowed upon the betrayed party ...and all the details are put on the table ....there is of course the pain that the betrayed person will endure.


Agree. Though, it's not possible to have this type of transparency. We will only get our truth, the spouse's truth, and everyone else's truth, grouping them as large as I can.



Hurtin_Still said:


> But ...(and this is my opinion) ....I don't care how 'healed' the betrayed party eventually will state that they are .....the initial lie of betrayal will always be a nagging pebble in their shoe ...however small.


Disagree. I think it's what the BS knows deep down about themselves that is so nagging.



Hurtin_Still said:


> That lie ....gets the mind to try and put other puzzle pieces into the frame ...whether they fit there ...or belong there ....or are completely imaginary. That's the part that mind plays in destroying the betrayed .....even if it's small destruction ...or if it occurs once in a blue moon.


Agree in part. I think there are many questions that will never be answered. I think, even if they are, we must then find a way to see those answers from the WS' perspective. That's difficult until you have become a WS. Then, I think we can accept what has happened, within our own reality. I think we can then accept that the original WS had very good justification for choosing to be vengeful through sexual infidelity. 

I think it preys upon the WS in that they can never be the person they once were. They have fundamentally changed who they are and how they perceive things and come to a different conclusion than they did before the infidelity. I think they long to go back in time and be that person they once were. 

It's not possible. They have changed and are much more susceptible to unfaithful thoughts and actions in subsequent relationships. I think they know this and it gnaws at them like a cancer. They must be vigilant of this and never let the slightest offense turn them toward that type of revenge. 

I think they are then much more likely, without hard work, to stray at a lesser perceived offense. No one knows what that will be. It will be much easier with the acquired skill, knowledge and experience from previous infidelities. 

I know, that would be an issue in any new relationship. 



Hurtin_Still said:


> .....regarding the lies of omission, info withheld ...is no less a lie than info that comes out immediately. When inquiring about condom vs no condom as a detail of an affair / ONS ...etc ....getting an answer such as, "I can't remember" ...is unacceptable ....and complete Bull S--t. (as was / is the story my wife has fed me ....immediately after her supposed ONS ...and for the past 20 years).


Agree. 




Hurtin_Still said:


> ......info withheld on purpose ...is just as damaging as twisted info that's spoonfed to the betrayed party.


Agree with the caveat that the withheld info becomes a time bomb of sorts. 

I've personally been accused of lies of omission. I can't remember all of the circumstances that were brought up. I do know that they were never withheld intentionally. I was just never asked about them and didn't offer them, since I believed them to be resolved or non-issues, since resolution. All was open to be discussed. I stated that very clearly several times over at least a five year period.

In my case, they weren't discussed with me. They were discussed with others. Remember what I wrote about truths? We as humans, each have our own interpretation. That's why it's a combination, here on earth in this dimension anyway, of separate truths and a look at the middle ground. 

It's interesting how the brain functions. Of course, I don't have the memory of Sheldon. Few do. Extensive testing would have to be done for me to believe they remember every detail perfectly as it occurred to a bystander who is completely truthful and has the same type of exceptional memory. Otherwise, it's memory obscured by emotion and ability to reason, etc. 

Thank you. That was helpful and interesting.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: A Question For Men...*



2ntnuf said:


> Disagree. I think it's what the BS knows deep down about themselves that is so nagging.



......how so? Are you implying that the BS is to blame in any way?


----------



## 2ntnuf

Hurtin_Still said:


> ......how so? Are you implying that the BS is to blame in any way?


No, not for the choice to be unfaithful. That is solely on the WS. 

Still, I think it is easy to look at ourselves for things we might have done better and continue to blame ourselves for certain things long after. It's the, "what if's".

Acceptance that we did as we thought best within our abilities at the time, is what helps to get rid of those. Also helps to know that others have had the same issues, with or without infidelity. 

No, I do not think, nor am I implying that a BS is responsible for the infidelity.

ETA: In any way.


----------



## sidney2718

turnera said:


> Wide, sweeping generalizations abound on this thread.


If you are talking about Cynic's post just above yours, the fact that they are wide and sweeping doesn't stop them from being correct a fair amount of the time.

It's a well-known example of the differences between man talk and woman talk. Sure, they can both talk the same language, but they are most comfortable in their gender idiom.


----------



## sidney2718

OptimisticPessimist said:


> .
> 
> Further, even if she had the _right_ to pursue the doctor, I can still understand how that whole experience might make her current husband uncomfortable. I mean, she ended up attracted to another man and slept with him while he was still interested in her.


No man has the right to think that his interest in her means that she can't do anything without breaking up with him. That's the property aspect of this sort of thing. Communication broke down when she was unable to convey to him her need for commitment or break-up. She didn't hate him and didn't really want to burn any bridges. But no matter, once communication breaks down all sorts of horrors can follow.

I'm not speaking about Lacy's situation, just in general.


----------



## ThePheonix

sidney2718 said:


> Communication broke down when she was unable to convey to him her need for commitment or break-up.


Based on his response, 

"I asked BF/Hubby if he knew where our relationship was headed and *he told me that he didn't know. He was happy in the moment. *

What part did she not convey to him? It seems clear to me that she ask him where the relationship was going and he said he didn't know and was happy where it was. My read, and apparently Lacy's was it was about as far as it was going to get. I know when a woman tells a man, "I don't know how far the relationship is going", it means, "You're just here to kill time until Mr Right comes along."


----------



## Dyokemm

Phoenix,

So because he gave an honest answer about not being sure where their ALREADY COMMITTED relationship was headed, she was justified to use a bullsh*t demand for space (which Lacy herself admits was primarily designed in her plan to go after OM) as cover to go cheat?

Sorry....they had been dating exclusively and in a committed situation for 2 years....simply asking for 'space' cause she was mad he didn't propose to her on the spot after this conversation DOES NOT entail breaking up or ending the relationship.

She cheated, plain and simple while using her now H as a Plan B.

They eventually reconciled and she has been a model W for 20 years....but that doesn't mean posters should validate her wayward behavior at the time as somehow justified or OK.,


----------



## realist

This wasnt some random guy ...he must have been after Lacy for a min
Said it herself 'husband warned this guy was only after whats in my pants'
She still slept with him anyway and let him creampied her
All that added to his anger
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## vellocet

Q tip said:


> Well, at 21, she finally grew up and made the best choice ever in her life. She's with a decent man who saw where he was in all of this, got hurt and made the finest decision in his life.
> 
> Why don't we celebrate this with them. She discovered that her "little" lie and childish actions hurt him deeply and came to that realization (maybe) with our help.
> 
> This is a happy ending that went backwards into the past. Not the other way around.
> 
> Cheers to OP for digging this up and slaying it.
> 
> Live long and cherish each other. Hip hip, hooray!
> 
> And close this thread...!


After Lacey's last post, I can agree with the above. I still have to scratch my head about the whole break up to have sex with the other man thing though. IMO, she wanted to sew her oats one last time. But if her H can come to terms with it and try to forget it, then yes, all the best to them.


----------



## turnera

vellocet said:


> After Lacey's last post, I can agree with the above. I still have to scratch my head about the whole break up to have sex with the other man thing though. IMO, she wanted to sew her oats one last time. But if her H can come to terms with it and try to forget it, then yes, all the best to them.


I don't think she broke up just to have sex.


----------



## vellocet

turnera said:


> I don't think she broke up just to have sex.


I do.

Develops emotional affair with OM

Goes home and starts an argument with her bf because he simply wasn't ready to get married yet.

Breaks up and goes to have sex with a man that she is not committed to.

Whats the point of breaking up with someone who you have a commitment to, and yes, she said at the time they did, only to go have sex with someone because their bf isn't ready for marriage? Was the OM ready for marriage? Were they committed? No and no.

She wanted other man, she used the "bf not ready for marriage" as an excuse.


----------



## ThePheonix

Dyokemm said:


> Phoenix,
> 
> simply asking for 'space' cause she was mad he didn't propose to her on the spot after this conversation DOES NOT entail breaking up or ending the relationship.


It just goes to show you when a woman says she want space, she's looking for something beyond what's she's getting for you.


----------



## sidney2718

ThePheonix said:


> Based on his response,
> 
> "I asked BF/Hubby if he knew where our relationship was headed and *he told me that he didn't know. He was happy in the moment. *
> 
> What part did she not convey to him? It seems clear to me that she ask him where the relationship was going and he said he didn't know and was happy where it was. My read, and apparently Lacy's was it was about as far as it was going to get. I know when a woman tells a man, "I don't know how far the relationship is going", it means, "You're just here to kill time until Mr Right comes along."


Of course. Which is why the BF bears part of the responsibility for this fiasco. They were not married and the BF was committed to not committing.

Of course she takes the blame. She's been made to feel guilty because that's the way this society operates. I do understand that she did not make it clear to the BF that she felt free to "cheat", but her actions show that she in fact DID feel free to "cheat".

There often comes a time in many men's lives where they have to decide to commit or leave. Not committing and not leaving is what we call "cake eating" and the BF was doing that with some pleasure.

I repeat my mantra: every case is different. There are no universal rules.


----------



## sidney2718

turnera said:


> I don't think she broke up just to have sex.


Nor do I. It seemed to me to be an attempt to get her BF's attention because she was tired of his cake eating.


----------



## Squeakr

sidney2718 said:


> Not committing and not leaving is what we call "cake eating" and the BF was doing that with some pleasure.


This is not true. He was committed. He had been in a 2 year long exclusive relationship. Just because he was undecided on marital future doesn't mean he was cake eating. He was in a committed relationship and remaining exclusive. Cake eating would have been him not being happy in the current relationship yet not leaving and sampling other goods on the side. He was committed exclusively to her and happy/content with the current situation. Their is more to commitment than just married. People can committed to each other and never marry.


----------



## cpacan

sidney2718 said:


> Of course. Which is why the BF bears part of the responsibility for this fiasco. They were not married and the BF was committed to not committing.
> 
> Of course she takes the blame. She's been made to feel guilty because that's the way this society operates. I do understand that she did not make it clear to the BF that she felt free to "cheat", *but her actions show that she in fact DID feel free to "cheat".*
> 
> There often comes a time in many men's lives where they have to decide to commit or leave. Not committing and not leaving is what we call "cake eating" and the BF was doing that with some pleasure.
> 
> I repeat my mantra: every case is different. There are no universal rules.


I would say that the bolded is always true when someone choose betrayal - how can it not be?

And yes, two years is waaayy too long to wait for the wedding ring.. ??? I guess that must depend on culture and norms in society and FOO - it certainly doesn't apply in general where I live, maybe in the US.


----------



## Dyokemm

"It just goes to show you when a woman says she want space, she's looking for something beyond what's she's getting for you."

Fair enough Phoenix...I see your point.

But all I can say is that if women (and I do not think all of them are this way) are going to act so disingenuously when dealing with their partners, then the only self-respecting response from a man dealing with such a two faced manipulator would be to tell her to go kick rocks...permanently.

lol...or as one of my favorite posters here put it one time, 'time to bust out the big spraycan of floozy-be-gone'.


----------



## larry.gray

sidney2718 said:


> Nor do I. It seemed to me to be an attempt to get her BF's attention because she was tired of his cake eating.


You really live on a different planet, don't you?

Cake eating is being in a committed, monogamous relationship but not quite ready to give up a ring?


----------



## 2ntnuf

He might be a woman...from what I've read anyway. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It makes more sense when considering his stance on many subjects.


----------



## Chaparral

If you tell someone you're not married to you are going out with someone else, if that person knows you're doing it because he won't commit, if you haven't been getting along lately, if he tells you the om just wants in your pants, so you tel him you need space, I'm guessing that's a break up. Im guessing handing you your stuff in a box is an exclamation point.

Getting back together later when your exboyfriend figures out he screwed the pooch isn't uncommon either.

What is uncommon is how a few guys can't let this thread go. But it does show a lot of imagination.lol


----------



## Dyokemm

"If you tell someone you're not married to you are going out with someone else, if that person knows you're doing it because he won't commit, if you haven't been getting along lately, if he tells you the om just wants in your pants, so you tel him you need space, I'm guessing that's a break up. Im guessing handing you your stuff in a box is an exclamation point."

Chap,

You are truly one of my favorite posters on here....but I can't agree with you one bit on this piece of analysis.

Lacy herself has contradicted nearly every point you make with her own admissions of how the situation went down and her mind set/motivations during it.

If you don't believe her own words for some reason, that's fine.....but I don't see how that leads to you accusing the other posters on here having vivid imaginations.


----------



## sidney2718

Squeakr said:


> This is not true. He was committed. He had been in a 2 year long exclusive relationship. Just because he was undecided on marital future doesn't mean he was cake eating. He was in a committed relationship and remaining exclusive. Cake eating would have been him not being happy in the current relationship yet not leaving and sampling other goods on the side. He was committed exclusively to her and happy/content with the current situation. Their is more to commitment than just married. People can committed to each other and never marry.


In my opinion you are giving a new meaning to commitment. In her original post Lacy made it clear that she wanted a commitment from him. What do you think she meant by that?

Some couples are happy in a long term relationship (LTR). And that's good for them. Some couples are NOT happy in an LTR and regard the LTR as a stepping stone to marriage and the legal protections it provides. Clearly her now husband did not want that step. There was no agreement between them on continuing the LTR indefinitely. It takes two to make a contract, even if it is only an implied contract.

No, I am not saying that Lacy was guiltless. I did say that her now husband bears part of the responsibility for what happened. As I also said I think that Lacy's motive, or one of them, was to pressure her now husband into marrying her. It worked.


----------



## sidney2718

cpacan said:


> I would say that the bolded is always true when someone choose betrayal - how can it not be?
> 
> And yes, two years is waaayy too long to wait for the wedding ring.. ??? I guess that must depend on culture and norms in society and FOO - it certainly doesn't apply in general where I live, maybe in the US.


Everybody is different. Two years (or however long it was) was clearly too long for Lacy to wait. And I think she made her unhappiness about it very clear.


----------



## sidney2718

larry.gray said:


> You really live on a different planet, don't you?
> 
> Cake eating is being in a committed, monogamous relationship but not quite ready to give up a ring?


Cake eating can also be enjoying the benefits of a conjugal union while not delivering on the full commitment.


----------



## sidney2718

2ntnuf said:


> He might be a woman...from what I've read anyway. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It makes more sense when considering his stance on many subjects.


You really don't like women, do you? For you there's a male view of the world and a female view of the world, right? You might think about that a bit.

By the way, I nominate your post for the most humorous one in this thread!
:rofl:


----------



## Squeakr

sidney2718 said:


> Squeakr said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is not true. He was committed. He had been in a 2 year long exclusive relationship. Just because he was undecided on marital future doesn't mean he was cake eating. He was in a committed relationship and remaining exclusive. Cake eating would have been him not being happy in the current relationship yet not leaving and sampling other goods on the side. He was committed exclusively to her and happy/content with the current situation. Their is more to commitment than just married. People can committed to each other and never marry.
> 
> 
> 
> In my opinion you are giving a new meaning to commitment. In her original post Lacy made it clear that she wanted a commitment from him. What do you think she meant by that?
> 
> Some couples are happy in a long term relationship (LTR). And that's good for them. Some couples are NOT happy in an LTR and regard the LTR as a stepping stone to marriage and the legal protections it provides. Clearly her now husband did not want that step. There was no agreement between them on continuing the LTR indefinitely. It takes two to make a contract, even if it is only an implied contract.
> 
> No, I am not saying that Lacy was guiltless. I did say that her now husband bears part of the responsibility for what happened. As I also said I think that Lacy's motive, or one of them, was to pressure her now husband into marrying her. It worked.
Click to expand...

I am not giving any new definition of commitment, you are just not recognizing a valid definition of commitment so this misunderstanding is solely on you. If you mean marriage then say it and stop beating around the bush and using semantics. 

Basing everything on the original post is also incorrect as she has recanted, changed, and clarified most of the original post. 

Her husband didn't want that next step at that time. You can't say whether he didn't want it or not as you don't know. He was coming off a bad relationship and needed time. It takes 2-5 years to get over being hurt by infidelity and betrayal (we don't now the nature of the hurt in his past relationship) so why should we expect something different from him?

You might not have exonerated her of responsibility but what you did was impugn and belittle her husband. You made him out to be deserving of all the hurt she thrust upon him like he had done something wrong to deserve it. He did nothing wrong other than not propose marriage within her time frame. Does that really deserve the hurt she thrust upon him and the bad characterization and blaming from you?


----------



## 2ntnuf

sidney2718 said:


> You really don't like women, do you? For you there's a male view of the world and a female view of the world, right? You might think about that a bit.
> 
> By the way, I nominate your post for the most humorous one in this thread!
> :rofl:


Well, I don't care for those who gaslight and deceive. Don't worry. Your secret is safe with me. 

Glad I made you laugh.


----------



## Dyokemm

"And I think she made her unhappiness about it very clear."

No.

Making it clear would be telling her LT, committed, bf something like this:

"Well....if that's all you can say, then I can't see this relationship going anywhere. There is no future to it, so, it is over...we are done."

Not pouting...declaring she wants 'space' to think, while planning to go cheat with Pencil....but still communicating and angrily pouting DAILY with her bf, who she admits made constant efforts to reconnect in their relationship, so she can keep him as a Plan B.

That's not making things clear....its being a manipulative cheat.


----------



## Hopeful Cynic

OptimisticPessimist said:


> I've never thought of it this way, but I have to say it makes a lot of sense. Without the protections of society (and even that isnt enough as evidenced by the sickos out there), harsh rejection could lead to physical conflict that a woman usually cannot win. Great point! As I am a man, I likely missed this because being direct doesnt present me with a risk that would make me feel vulnerable.
> 
> I will mention that this is a man she had been seeing for 2 years, and thus the chance of some retaliation in a way that would need to be defended against is unlikely (mentally or physically). I would also mention that it still leaves the man in limbo if he fails to understand what "I need some space" means. However, it does cast that statement in a much less manipulative light (potentially).


I'm extending my borrowing of the original poster's thread here, because you made me think of more ideas.

I don't think this 'soft' rejection is limited to the dating world and fear of violence. I think women do it to everyone to avoid hurting people's feelings. Telling her mom she doesn't want to come for Thanksgiving this year because she hates the driving and the drama? "Sorry mom, we hate to miss it, but we're just too busy this year." Telling the boyfriend of two years, whom she cares deeply about and doesn't want to hurt, that she can't keep going in relationship limbo like this? "I need space." So in a sense, it IS manipulative, just not self-serving.


----------



## Squeakr

sidney2718 said:


> 2ntnuf said:
> 
> 
> 
> He might be a woman...from what I've read anyway. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It makes more sense when considering his stance on many subjects.
> 
> 
> 
> You really don't like women, do you? For you there's a male view of the world and a female view of the world, right? You might think about that a bit.
> 
> By the way, I nominate your post for the most humorous one in this thread!
Click to expand...

Don't you share the same viewpoints? There was much talk here about equality and freedoms and how women should be treated the same sexually and have the same sexual freedoms so then why the double standard on marriage and proposing? She could have proposed marriage just as easily and it would have been just as valid as had he proposed it. 

We want to bring the values system into more modern times yet still maintain the old standards when it suits us best. How's that for cake eating?

If she wanted marriage then why not propose it and if he says no then move on instead of playing the field while keeping him in the wings? That's cake eating at its best as she wasn't committing either by your definition of it. She could have done as was suggested and make it clear what exactly she wanted, needed, and desired instead of the "need more space line" she was feeding him. 
When asked where he thought the relationship was going and got his response, she could have then stated what she wanted to happen and where she wanted to see it going. Instead she become angry and upset, gave her unclear line about space (which many have said means one thing to women and another to men, once again a femaie/male viewpoint difference that exists in the world) and then went to sample other goods while keeping him close just in case.

So after 2 years he hasn't made his move toward marriage, and neither had she, yet that makes him responsible and deserving off her choice to go and cheat on him? Got it now. Makes perfect sense to me.


----------



## michzz

I think decades ago when she was 21 and he was 31, the OP and her then BF were each the other's Plan B.

She wanted a Plan A and He wanted the status quo.

In a series of bad decisions she decided to break up and go get laid.

Being a young woman she knew she could basically crook her finger and accomplish that--and did.

Then she realized that it was a huge mistake and reconnected with great painful drama with her now husband.

She left out the yucky details of sex without a condom but revealed it decades later.

Yes, she shouldn't have lied. But, importantly, she revealed that she had sex and he still took her back.

They've been married for 20 years and have children. Presumably, their marriage has been a happy one.

I hope the OP's husband, 10 years older than she recognizes that the lie of a 21-year-old is nothing compared to the faithful commitment she made upon marriage.

OP's husband getting stuck on this? It will only ruin a good thing.


----------



## sidney2718

Squeakr said:


> I am not giving any new definition of commitment, you are just not recognizing a valid definition of commitment so this misunderstanding is solely on you. If you mean marriage then say it and stop beating around the bush and using semantics.
> 
> Basing everything on the original post is also incorrect as she has recanted, changed, and clarified most of the original post.
> 
> Her husband didn't want that next step at that time. You can't say whether he didn't want it or not as you don't know. He was coming off a bad relationship and needed time. It takes 2-5 years to get over being hurt by infidelity and betrayal (we don't now the nature of the hurt in his past relationship) so why should we expect something different from him?
> 
> You might not have exonerated her of responsibility but what you did was impugn and belittle her husband. You made him out to be deserving of all the hurt she thrust upon him like he had done something wrong to deserve it. He did nothing wrong other than not propose marriage within her time frame. Does that really deserve the hurt she thrust upon him and the bad characterization and blaming from you?


No, and I never said that he did. But he does deserve some of it.


----------



## sidney2718

Dyokemm said:


> "And I think she made her unhappiness about it very clear."
> 
> No.
> 
> Making it clear would be telling her LT, committed, bf something like this:
> 
> "Well....if that's all you can say, then I can't see this relationship going anywhere. There is no future to it, so, it is over...we are done."
> 
> Not pouting...declaring she wants 'space' to think, while planning to go cheat with Pencil....but still communicating and angrily pouting DAILY with her bf, who she admits made constant efforts to reconnect in their relationship, so she can keep him as a Plan B.
> 
> That's not making things clear....its being a manipulative cheat.


We are dealing with woman speak and man speak here. Lacy made it very clear that over the months preceding the ONS she'd made it clear that she wanted more of a commitment from her then BF.

For many people it is not enough to be forever in a holding pattern somewhere between engagement and marriage and live in friend with benefits. Others are perfectly happy with it. It is CLEAR that Lacy was not happy with it -- because if she was, there would not have been the ONS.

But the initial problem is worse. And we've seen it here before. Some thing happens prior to marriage and the wife is not fully truthful about it. Most of us would say that having the ONS was the problem and that the details didn't matter after 20 years. The husband did feel that the details mattered, but after mature reflection he realized that he could let it go.

There are many here that are not nearly as ready to let it go as he was.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Squeakr said:


> Don't you share the same viewpoints?


huh?



Squeakr said:


> There was much talk here about equality and freedoms and how women should be treated the same sexually and have the same sexual freedoms so then why the double standard on marriage and proposing? She could have proposed marriage just as easily and it would have been just as valid as had he proposed it.


In this thread? Didn't notice. 

On marriage and proposing I have a double standard? Hmm. Interesting. Don't even remember commenting about proposals. 



Squeakr said:


> We want to bring the values system into more modern times yet still maintain the old standards when it suits us best. How's that for cake eating?


Who are we, and when was that decision made for everyone in the world? Cake eating? Not sure what you mean? 

Which old standards are you referring? I'm not following. 

If engineers design a car and the ignition switch is bad and they go back and just redesign that ignition switch, is that cake eating? Should they redesign the whole car because the ignition switch is bad? 

Not sure I am following you on all of this.




Squeakr said:


> If she wanted marriage then why not propose it and if he says no then move on instead of playing the field while keeping him in the wings?


Really confused how this all relates to the posts you quoted. Why not? Maybe she will answer? I think I actually posted against what she did. I'm thinking I am totally misunderstanding you. I think you may misunderstand something I posted. 



Squeakr said:


> That's cake eating at its best as she wasn't committing either by your definition of it. She could have done as was suggested and make it clear what exactly she wanted, needed, and desired instead of the "need more space line" she was feeding him.


That's correct. It would have been the best way to do it. What did I post stating the opposite? 




Squeakr said:


> When asked where he thought the relationship was going and got his response, she could have then stated what she wanted to happen and where she wanted to see it going.


Sure could have. Which post of mine says otherwise?



Squeakr said:


> Instead she become angry and upset, gave her unclear line about space (which many have said means one thing to women and another to men, once again a femaie/male viewpoint difference that exists in the world) and then went to sample other goods while keeping him close just in case.


Yes, that's what I think. :scratchhead:



Squeakr said:


> So after 2 years he hasn't made his move toward marriage, and neither had she, yet that makes him responsible and deserving off her choice to go and cheat on him? Got it now. Makes perfect sense to me.


Huh?? Where did I write that he is responsible and deserving of her choice to go and cheat on him? Not sure you were reading my posts? 

I think you got the wrong impression. 

What I was trying to say was the she did do wrong. I was also patting her on the back for being open when she was called out on it. Don't you think it was brave of her to open up and tell more? I do. Is it trickle truth over twenty years? I guess so.

Now, coulda woulda shoulda she done it differently? Yes. They had twenty good years of marriage. Why did she bother telling him? I think it was either forgetfulness or she wanted to hurt him with it. I don't think she answered that. 

So, in conclusion, it is painful for her husband. I think I suggested she try to help him recover from the pain and hurt. I think he does have a right to go cheat on her, in revenge, or do whatever he wants to pay her back. I don't recommend it; not after twenty good years of marriage. Do I think he might do it? Yes, he might, but I really don't know him at all. Do I? 

Would I understand if he wanted to and did? Yes. 

I hope he doesn't. 

ETA: She can also go out and have an affair, divorce him, or any number of things. Escalating this isn't a very good idea in my honest opinion. 

Do I think she was cake eating? Yes, she could have been totally up front and open and honest, but I don't know that, at her age, she could have even thought of that. She wanted what she wanted and that was it. 

On the other hand, she could have thought she told him. I remember my x1 telling me things after a row that she told me and I had no clue what she was meaning with what she said. Who am I to say she didn't try in her own way, all the way back then? 

So, we have her admitting that she tried, although he was still talking with her. That's a red flag. Many women want to be friends after a divorce or separation of some kind. Can a person say that in all those cases, the woman is using her ex as plan B? I don't think so. 

My recommendation is to work together very hard on the love and marriage and life they've built. He needs some counseling in my opinion. He is likely angry and may take it out on her in some way. He may not, too. 

She needs to understand how hurtful it was to her husband and then accept responsiblity for what she did. That means, in my mind, helping him get past it. It may also mean that she goes to counseling to understand better.

Lastly, she slept with that guy. I think that might have caused an issue for me. It didn't for him. Kudos to him. That's great. I might have told her to take a hike. So, why bring this up when it was settled? 

Anyway, I don't see the double standard. I don't see the cake eating that I am doing. Maybe I am just missing it. 

Twenty years and children and mostly happy? I don't think there were other occurrences of infidelity or anything. Oops, did I call what she did infidelity? Well, it's my opinion it was. I don't think it was as serious as when one is married. Mostly because there are no laws saying they have to divide things. Otherwise, I think it is as serious, since they were committed for two years and there was no one else, supposedly. 

Either way, I'm not catching what you are pitching.


----------



## Squeakr

2ntnuf said:


> Either way, I'm not catching what you are pitching.


Sorry if you are confused. Blame that on latest Google Chrome and the iPhone (for some reason they have started working strangely after recent updates). When you try to post using them in conjunction it doesn't just quote the part you are trying to quote, but everything that was quoted within the the quoted text as well and doesn't let you edit out things (or at least it doesn't me currently).

I was responding to Sidney2718 and since your post was quoted within that post, it got quoted within my post. Very misleading to all.

I pretty much share the viewpoints you do, but not the ones expressed by sidney2718, and everything in that post was directed at sidney2718 and the viewpoints expressed within this thread. I apologize for the confusion it has created, but it was not my intention, just a technology issue that created it.


----------



## 2ntnuf

Squeakr said:


> Sorry if you are confused. Blame that on latest Google Chrome and the iPhone (for some reason they have started working strangely after recent updates). When you try to post using them in conjunction it doesn't just quote the part you are trying to quote, but everything that was quoted within the the quoted text as well and doesn't let you edit out things (or at least it doesn't me currently).
> 
> I was responding to Sidney2718 and since your post was quoted within that post, it got quoted within my post. Very misleading to all.
> 
> I pretty much share the viewpoints you do, but not the ones expressed by sidney2718, and everything in that post was directed at sidney2718 and the viewpoints expressed within this thread. I apologize for the confusion it has created, but it was not my intention, just a technology issue that created it.


Thanks Squeaker. I was shocked.  No problem.


----------



## Dyokemm

sidney,

Sorry...I disagree.

I don't think there is such a thing as 'women speak' or 'men speak'.

There is simply honest communication and dishonest/deceptive communication.

I too agree that Lacy has been a model W for 20 years based on what she has said, and that based on that and the fact her BH knew about the betrayal and chose to R back then, that he would be foolish to throw that away.

But I am not going to rewrite what she did to pretend it was acceptable behavior....and based on Lacy's own admissions/posts, I don't think she sees it as acceptable now.

Just because the end result has been a happy life and M, I don't think her choices would be something others wanted to emulate.

Most of the time, what she did would get a person permanently kicked to the curb.

I'm happy for her and her H that it worked out differently and wish them all the best.


----------



## vellocet

sidney2718 said:


> In my opinion you are giving a new meaning to commitment. In her original post Lacy made it clear that she wanted a commitment from him.


Only to later come back and post that they WERE in a committed relationship at the time, just not marriage. 

So she wanted to hop in bed with OM, went home started an argument about marriage, then jumped the OM first chance she got.

Got what she wanted, then got back together with bf. THIS, I suspect, is what H is having a hard time with.

He ended up doing the honor of marrying her, but not the OM. He just got an easy quickie out of it. Yet her H, who is having a hard time with the idea of what she did is some sort of bastard "caked eater" to you? Really?

Wow, just, wow. 




> No, I am not saying that Lacy was guiltless. I did say that her now husband bears part of the responsibility for what happened.


No, he doesn't. Her decision to temporarily break up with him to bone OM is not his fault. 



> As I also said I think that Lacy's motive, or one of them, was to pressure her now husband into marrying her. It worked.


Yup, sure did. Now look where that has gotten her. She has an unhappy husband. Yes, pressuring someone to marry by breaking off for a short time to have sex with someone else works so well obviously


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

I didn't read the whole thread. Honestly, the first 2 pages and this last one are all saying the same thing. They both made stupid mistakes.

1) The OP wanted a "separation" from her serious BF after he refused to commit to marriage. If she was truly serious about this, she should have broken it off then and there and told him that they were through. Instead, she played the separation card and neither clearly discussed what that entails.

2) The BF turned husband did something stupid too. Lacy clearly admitted to him prior to them rekindling their relationship. From what I can gather, the only lie was whether they used protection or not. He "forgave" the affair, and then they got married. However, throughout the marriage, he kept revisiting the affair over and over and over again. The biggest lie in all of this was the lie the husband told himself. He should have been honest and assessed whether he could forgive this or not. He cannot.

Both are going to have to apologize to each other about this and figure out how to put this behind each other if they want to salvage this. She was extremely unfair about having a ONS, but she fessed up to having sex while they were separated. He supposedly forgave her and married her, but he didn't really forgive and kept this pain alive for 20 years. She too was screwed out of an otherwise great marriage because he refused to let go after he FORGAVE HER for the ONS.


----------



## Dyokemm

Plan 9,

Actually, Lacy said in later posts her H has NOT constantly brought it up over the years.

Recently, they were researching a potential move and H noticed that the OM was now living in that area, and during the conversation she admitted she had lied about using protection all those years ago.

This piece of TT'ing upset him for a brief time, but they appear to have quickly put it behind them.


----------



## vellocet

Dyokemm said:


> This piece of TT'ing upset him for a brief time, but they appear to have quickly put it behind them.


I guarantee you.....he has not. He will probably drop it, bottle up his feelings, but they will still be there, and he will still boil inside once in a while when he does think about the events that went down and how they went down.


----------



## Hurtin_Still

*Re: Re: A Question For Men...*



vellocet said:


> I guarantee you.....he has not. He will probably drop it, bottle up his feelings, but they will still be there, and he will still boil inside once in a while when he does think about the events that went down and how they went down.


....agreed. Whether he ever brings it up ...the pot-o-pain will always simmer. It's 'there' ....and will always be so ...in some shape or form.


----------



## Forest

Ya'll still think Lacy is a real woman?


----------



## 2ntnuf

Forest said:


> Ya'll still think Lacy is a real woman?


Way back when she first agreed with a few men I was suspicious. 

Sometimes I'm interested in opinions and a thread like this is an opportunity to learn.


----------



## vellocet

Forest said:


> Ya'll still think Lacy is a real woman?


I invoke my 5th amendment rights.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

If Lacy is real, then I find myself coming down on the same side as Sidney2718 on this one. which is upsetting in and of itself (for me) 

her husband is overreacting, even by my standards. also we can all drive ouselves insane by trying to apply the concept of 'infidelity' to a non-marriage, let alone to a non-committed relationship. 

more seriously though despite knowing almost every single thing about her sexual history - including her being with this guy on that particular night and going all the way - he did fall in love with her, did marry her. but he clearly never got over her sleeping that one time with this one guy and under those circumstances. that is what is bothering him and has been for 20 years...the condom thing is just his excuse to let that smoldering hurt flare up again. He does actually need some counseling I think. but of course, many of us do.


----------



## Red Sonja

Late to the party. This thread is insane so not going to comment, however I could not let this pass ...



GusPolinski said:


> OMG! He punched a window! Call the police! AYFKM?


Gus, I cannot believe the above came from your keyboard. Perhaps you (along with those who "liked" the post) need to be a fly on the wall in some poor woman's house when her husband or boyfriend is behaving in such a manner. You need to see the terror on her face first hand, maybe then you will re-think your glib comment.


----------



## FalconKing

Somebody please lock this thread!!!


----------



## nuclearnightmare

Red Sonja said:


> Late to the party. This thread is insane so not going to comment, however I could not let this pass ...
> 
> 
> 
> Gus, I cannot believe the above came from your keyboard. Perhaps you (along with those who "liked" the post) need to be a fly on the wall in some poor woman's house when her husband or boyfriend is behaving in such a manner. You need to see the terror on her face first hand, maybe then you will re-think your glib comment.



sorry Sonja:

I need to chastise you and unchastise Gus. It is offbase to assume that a puncher of windows or walls would necessarily become a puncher of women, or that a wife would have legitimate reason to fear violence from such a husband - UNLESS (1) she barely knows him; or (2) he has hit her previously.

It is NOT a sin to be angry, nor a sin to display anger. People in the "caring" professions need to cease at once from shaming people for being angry. In the case of this guy, per my earlier post I am not sure his anger is justified per se. But feeling the emotion can still be useful in digging deeper as to what is at the crux of his pain.


----------



## turnera

Easy to say when you're not the physiologically weaker person standing there watching the stronger person punching a hole in the wall.


----------



## nuclearnightmare

turnera said:


> Easy to say when you're not the physiologically weaker person standing there watching the stronger person punching a hole in the wall.


 but I notice you didn't disagree with it..... 
I think if conditions 1 or 2 don't prevail, expressing a fear of bodliy harm is more likely a veiled threat to bring the police on site than it a sincere concern of hers.....IMO


----------



## turnera

A woman never turns OFF the fear of bodily harm, dude. She judges every situation she is in in terms of potential harm. When she leaves a store, she looks to see who can overpower her. In sexual situations a woman always knows in that back of her head that, if she DOES get raped, she either will get told she brought it on or she'll be asked what she was wearing. When she's in a room with a man, she is aware. So, in case you didn't get it...I disagree.


----------



## Thundarr

turnera said:


> Easy to say when you're not the physiologically weaker person standing there watching the stronger person punching a hole in the wall.


Controlling anger is not easy. I'm sure fearing is is not easy either. It seems the very traits that make a woman feel protected when with a man are the same traits that make her feel frightened when he's losing it.


----------



## Relationship

To be honest, I would have had problems staying with you in the first place. However to be fair, you were broken up. As for the use of protection, since you were broken up, what you did was you call, it would not have mattered to me if you had used protection or not.


----------



## Divinely Favored

She stated in the original post after she did the deed..."The next morning I called my then BF to come over" ..
She was still with him and made him believe she was just mad..why else would you be talking to your so called broken up with BF almost daily? O believe saying she was "broken up" is her minds way of justifying the wrong she did.


----------



## NoChoice

What does it mean that some have questioned if she is real or not?? Is this what I've heard referred to as a troll??


----------



## nuclearnightmare

turnera said:


> A woman never turns OFF the fear of bodily harm, dude. She judges every situation she is in in terms of potential harm. When she leaves a store, she looks to see who can overpower her. In sexual situations a woman always knows in that back of her head that, if she DOES get raped, she either will get told she brought it on or she'll be asked what she was wearing. When she's in a room with a man, she is aware. So, in case you didn't get it...I disagree.


 are you saying that she never turns off the fear of male perpretrated bodily harm, including from her husband, even if her husband has never touched her in anger?? this might be worth starting a new thread. I'm curious as to what other women think.


----------



## wmn1

Red Sonja said:


> Late to the party. This thread is insane so not going to comment, however I could not let this pass ...
> 
> 
> 
> Gus, I cannot believe the above came from your keyboard. Perhaps you (along with those who "liked" the post) need to be a fly on the wall in some poor woman's house when her husband or boyfriend is behaving in such a manner. You need to see the terror on her face first hand, maybe then you will re-think your glib comment.



He hit the window not her. Big difference. If anything, he hurt himself. I too would have kicked a garbage can if she had done to me what she did to him. However, it seems that, except on an occasion here and there, has treated her pretty well and she even said so herself.


----------



## wmn1

turnera said:


> Easy to say when you're not the physiologically weaker person standing there watching the stronger person punching a hole in the wall.


I question whether she's the 'psychologically weaker' person here. She was very cunning in retaliating against him 20 years ago. Besides, even in my world, my wife is a very powerful woman, and though I am stronger, she can do some damage. Besides, with the way the DV system is, men walk on eggshells anyway. So I disagree with your assessment.


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## Squeakr

Her entire intent in telling him in person was to inflict pain and suffering, and she has admitted to that within this thread. This leads me to believe that she had no fear of him hurting her, or she would have told him on the phone when they talked that morning and not told him she needed to talk to him in person.

The fear of physically being hurt is not something that is exclusive to women. It is just a natural animal emotion. The reaction to how to handle it is what separates the situation, think fight or flight. Generally the smaller in stature surveys the situation and their success within and then decides to remain and fight or flee. This is not something reserved solely for the females of the species (in fact in most of the species, the female is the one to stay and defend). Also the sexual scenarios are not once again reserved for the women, as men have to assess every encounter and decide whether the female will wake and have reservations and file charges, in which case the male will have to answer whether her threatened her, got her influenced beyond normal logical senses, or she refused and he forced it through threats, either actual or perceived (this is especially true when the male is much larger than the female).. No gender has it any easier than the other or is any less available to fear of retribution from the other.


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## wmn1

turnera said:


> A woman never turns OFF the fear of bodily harm, dude. She judges every situation she is in in terms of potential harm. When she leaves a store, she looks to see who can overpower her. In sexual situations a woman always knows in that back of her head that, if she DOES get raped, she either will get told she brought it on or she'll be asked what she was wearing. When she's in a room with a man, she is aware. So, in case you didn't get it...I disagree.



you are too general in your explanation. Every individual is different. I am sure Ronda Rousey would have no fear of me in the parking lot


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## wmn1

Squeakr said:


> Her entire intent in telling him in person was to inflict pain and suffering, and she has admitted to that within this thread. This leads me to believe that she had no fear of him hurting her, or she would have told him on the phone when they talked that morning and not told him she needed to talk to him in person.
> 
> The fear of physically being hurt is not something that is exclusive to women. It is just a natural animal emotion. The reaction to how to handle it is what separates the situation, think fight or flight. Generally the smaller in stature surveys the situation and their success within and then decides to remain and fight or flee. This is not something reserved solely for the females of the species (in fact in most of the species, the female is the one to stay and defend). Also the sexual scenarios are not once again reserved for the women, as men have to assess every encounter and decide whether the female will wake and have reservations and file charges, in which case the male will have to answer whether her threatened her, got her influenced beyond normal logical senses, or she refused and he forced it through threats, either actual or perceived (this is especially true when the male is much larger than the female).. No gender has it any easier than the other or is any less available to fear of retribution from the other.


Very well said


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## 2ntnuf

FalconKing said:


> Somebody please lock this thread!!!


bump


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## vellocet

Red Sonja said:


> Gus, I cannot believe the above came from your keyboard. Perhaps you (along with those who "liked" the post) need to be a fly on the wall in some poor woman's house when her husband or boyfriend is behaving in such a manner. *You need to see the terror on her face first hand*, maybe then you will re-think your glib comment.


You were there?? Wow, how bad was it?


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## Squeakr

vellocet said:


> You were there?? Wow, how bad was it?


Yep, I am betting that the original look was a smug smile and sense of accomplishment look as she had achieved the hurt and pain she intended to inflict and then it was a look of startling surprise or even more satisfaction at his response (I am betting there was very little fear).


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## Thundarr

vellocet said:


> You were there?? Wow, how bad was it?





Squeakr said:


> Yep, I am betting that the original look was a smug smile and sense of accomplishment look as she had achieved the hurt and pain she intended to inflict and then it was a look of startling surprise or even more satisfaction at his response (I am betting there was very little fear).


Maybe it was smug sense of accomplishment but that doesn't explain why she's with him now after all of these years. Maybe is was a shameful feeling of guilt but then she wouldn't have trickle truthed. More than likely, it was a naive combination of several dynamics and not as simple as you want to protray it.


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## Red Sonja

nuclearnightmare said:


> It is offbase to assume that a puncher of windows or walls would necessarily become a puncher of women, or that a wife would have legitimate reason to fear violence from such a husband - UNLESS (1) she barely knows him; or (2) he has hit her previously.



Nope. It is normal for a woman to be afraid in the presence of a husband behaving in a violently angry manner ... no matter his previous patterns of behavior.




nuclearnightmare said:


> It is NOT a sin to be angry, nor a sin to display anger. People in the "caring" professions need to cease at once from shaming people for being angry. In the case of this guy, per my earlier post I am not sure his anger is justified per se. But feeling the emotion can still be useful in digging deeper as to what is at the crux of his pain.



Violence is not a normal expression of anger unless you are a 3 year old having a tantrum. A mature adult does not use violence unless it is in response to an physical attack and even then you need to have a clear head.


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## nuclearnightmare

Red Sonja said:


> Nope. It is normal for a woman to be afraid in the presence of a husband behaving in a violently angry manner ... no matter his previous patterns of behavior.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Violence is not a normal expression of anger unless you are a 3 year old having a tantrum. A mature adult does not use violence unless it is in response to an physical attack and even then you need to have a clear head.



1st paragraph - I doubt this is true. may be true for some women but I have a hard time it is true for many.

2nd para - I agree. but attacking a NON-living thing is not violence, by any reasonable definition.


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## turnera

You're a male, aren't you?


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## nuclearnightmare

turnera said:


> You're a male, aren't you?


yes


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## turnera

Then both your statements are invalid, not to mention incorrect.


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## nuclearnightmare

turnera said:


> Then both your statements are invalid, not to mention incorrect.


isn't the validity of pretty much anything I say, or anything you say, based on arguments, or data, or both? .....rather than the gender of the speaker :scratchhead:


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## wmn1

nuclearnightmare said:


> isn't the validity of pretty much anything I say, or anything you say, based on arguments, or data, or both? .....rather than the gender of the speaker :scratchhead:


I agree with you Nuc. You are correct in both statements. I didn't realize that fear or violence was restricted to one gender. That's new by me. None-the-less, hitting an object and not a person is by no means violence. My wife caught her hand in the car door and punched the quarterpanel. I guess I should have filed a protective order against her LMAO


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## Red Sonja

wmn1 said:


> LMAO


I have one more thing to say before I bow out of this thread jack before I get banned.

If destroying inanimate objects is not violence and "no big deal" then why not do it in public (because you might get arrested), why not do it in front of your children (because you will scare the piss out of them), why not do it at work (because you will get fired)?

Wmn1 ... should I have "LMAO" at my husband when he upended a table full of dishes/food in a burst of violent anger and stood up screaming when I asked him a neutral question? Is that an appropriate thing for a man to do in front of his wife and child (who were both shocked and terrified by his outburst)?

Nuc ... perhaps you should start a thread on this subject (as you previously posted), what you learn might surprise you.

The men on this thread have dismissed and trivialized the very real experiences of women and, I must say that I am glad I am not married to anyone with similar views and that my H is now an EX.


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## Nostromo

nuclearnightmare said:


> isn't the validity of pretty much anything I say, or anything you say, based on arguments, or data, or both? .....rather than the gender of the speaker :scratchhead:


Oh you must be new here, hi I'm Nostromo. It's viewed as an acceptable pastime to outright dismiss a mans opinion as worthless, you just can't do the opposite without being labeled a bitter womyn hater.


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## Thundarr

Red Sonja said:


> I have one more thing to say before I bow out of this thread jack before I get banned.
> 
> If destroying inanimate objects is not violence and "no big deal" then why not do it in public (because you might get arrested), why not do it in front of your children (because you will scare the piss out of them), why not do it at work (because you will get fired)?
> 
> Wmn1 ... should I have "LMAO" at my husband when he upended a table full of dishes/food in a burst of violent anger and stood up screaming when I asked him a neutral question? Is that an appropriate thing for a man to do in front of his wife and child (who were both shocked and terrified by his outburst)?
> 
> Nuc ... perhaps you should start a thread on this subject (as you previously posted), what you learn might surprise you.
> 
> The men on this thread have dismissed and trivialized the very real experiences of women and, I must say that I am glad I am not married to anyone with similar views and that my H is now an EX.


Red Sonja, I'm sure you agree that context matters too. The guy standing face to face with someone who has betrayed him may hit the wall to direct his hurt and pain away from that person in the moment. He's not the guy who upended a table in front his wife and kid on a neutral question. The context you're using to chastise wmn1 is completely different than his context which is about restraint after betrayal. My opinion anyway is that you're hypersensitive because of your ex's behavior.


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## turnera

Red Sonja said:


> I have one more thing to say before I bow out of this thread jack before I get banned.
> 
> If destroying inanimate objects is not violence and "no big deal" then why not do it in public (because you might get arrested), why not do it in front of your children (because you will scare the piss out of them), why not do it at work (because you will get fired)?
> 
> Wmn1 ... should I have "LMAO" at my husband when he upended a table full of dishes/food in a burst of violent anger and stood up screaming when I asked him a neutral question? Is that an appropriate thing for a man to do in front of his wife and child (who were both shocked and terrified by his outburst)?
> 
> Nuc ... perhaps you should start a thread on this subject (as you previously posted), what you learn might surprise you.
> 
> The men on this thread have dismissed and trivialized the very real experiences of women and, I must say that I am glad I am not married to anyone with similar views and that my H is now an EX.


I was going to reply, but this answers it far better. Just to add that, as a man, you do not have the life experience as a woman to 'determine' what makes a woman afraid. It's downright rude and dismissive to assume you know what makes us afraid, what 'should or should not' make us afraid.

Ok, to further expand, it's when my husband is SILENT and NOT MOVING that I fear him the most. This subject is SO much more complex than you attribute to it.


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## turnera

Thundarr said:


> Red Sonja, I'm sure you agree that context matters too. The guy standing face to face with someone who has betrayed him may hit the wall to direct his hurt and pain away from that person in the moment.


Are you saying that him hitting the wall will not / should not make her afraid? Are you saying that because she hurt him, she's not allowed to be afraid that he will hurt her?


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## cpacan

turnera said:


> Are you saying that him hitting the wall will not / should not make her afraid? Are you saying that because she hurt him, she's not allowed to be afraid that he will hurt her?


I'm not sure that's what Thundarr meant, or any of those commenting on this issue for that matter. Of course she's allowed to be afraid of his reaction, I would say it's only natural everything considered.

Maybe it isn't there, and maybe I read you and Sonja wrong, but the feeling I get from reading your posts is, that you expect men to show no reaction at all when faced with betrayal. I'm not violent by nature, but I'm not a robot either. I would expect that we all react in different ways.


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## turnera

I wasn't even TALKING about men and how they should feel. Never brought that up. I responded to someone saying that women shouldn't be afraid of a man unless he is flat out hitting her.


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## Forest

Thundarr said:


> Red Sonja, I'm sure you agree that context matters too. The guy standing face to face with someone who has betrayed him may hit the wall to direct his hurt and pain away from that person in the moment. He's not the guy who upended a table in front his wife and kid on a neutral question. The context you're using to chastise wmn1 is completely different than his context which is about restraint after betrayal. My opinion anyway is that you're hypersensitive because of your ex's behavior.


You're a male, aren't you?



You know the follow up response, right?


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## cpacan

turnera said:


> I wasn't even TALKING about men and how they should feel. Never brought that up. I responded to someone saying that women shouldn't be afraid of a man unless he is flat out hitting her.


And I agreed with you on that, didn't I? It seemed to me that you were against seeing the outburst in context, that was what made me comment. If we agree on that one as well, I apologize that I misread your post.


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## Thundarr

turnera said:


> Are you saying that him hitting the wall will not / should not make her afraid? Are you saying that because she hurt him, she's not allowed to be afraid that he will hurt her?


I'm not trying to minimize what you feel turnera or what Red Sonja feels. I was just pointing out the context of a non-abuser who's been betrayed is not the same context she used to fuss as Gus and wmn1 so her comment was misdirected IMO. It was meant for her ex and those like her ex.

To answer you're actual question, no.


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## Thundarr

Forest said:


> You're a male, aren't you?
> 
> You know the follow up response, right?


haha yes I am. I don't blame women who've been abused for being quick on the trigger with this topic though. I've never hit a woman and I've never intentionally scared or intimidated a woman. So I'll rest on my laurels and have an opinion :smthumbup:.


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## Forest

Thundarr said:


> haha yes I am. I don't blame women who've been abused for being quick on the trigger with this topic though. I've never hit a woman and I've never intentionally scared or intimidated a woman. So I'll rest on my laurels and have an opinion :smthumbup:.


Since DDay I've smashed, ranted and raved many times, and feel no need to apologize and second guess that behavior. Never come remotely close to anything physical.

Our MC even addressed the issue, asking my wife if it scared her. At the time, I was surprised it even came up. Are we to presuppose a man violent toward women until proven otherwise? My wife said she was a little surprised, but never scared.

For the record, I dealt with domestic violence situations firsthand for many years, and understand the impact they have. Would never make light of it. I just feel this slant that men are presumed to be abusive unjust.


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## Augusto

I don't think either person should be mad at all. I mean if he had trouble committing, then he very well could have been leaving his silver bullets in another woman. Not to mention her being on birth control as a sign from her to him saying she does not trust him.


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## Squeakr

Augusto said:


> I don't think either person should be mad at all. I mean if he had trouble committing, then he very well could have been leaving his silver bullets in another woman. Not to mention her being on birth control as a sign from her to him saying she does not trust him.


Did you even read this thread? Your assumptions are a total stretch of your imagination and no where do they have facts or links to this thread with their conclusions. 

He did commit! He just hadn't proposed marriage (these are two different things). He wasn't cheating and she never even suspected that he might have done it or had thoughts of it, just that the relationship wasn't progressing at the rate she wished it would and wasn't sure where it was going (where you drew this conclusion from what was stated, boggles the mind).

Where did you get the idea that a woman on birth control is on it as a sign of mistrust in her partner (as a woman is on birth control means a prescribed both control, such as the pill, now if you are talking about condoms as birth control, then the phrasing would be someone "using" birth control, and not being "on" it)? Either way, the use of birth control is generally accepted as a sign that one is trying to be careful and responsible with regards to an unwanted pregnanacy and lower risk of exposure and spread of disease, and in some cases it is used for medical reasons as the side effects can control, things such as acne, painful cycles, etc. Rarely, if ever, is it seen being used because of mistrust in another, as when that happens one generally just withholds sex.


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## nuclearnightmare

Red Sonja said:


> I have one more thing to say before I bow out of this thread jack before I get banned.
> 
> If destroying inanimate objects is not violence and "no big deal" then why not do it in public (because you might get arrested), why not do it in front of your children (because you will scare the piss out of them), why not do it at work (because you will get fired)?
> 
> Wmn1 ... should I have "LMAO" at my husband when he upended a table full of dishes/food in a burst of violent anger and stood up screaming when I asked him a neutral question? Is that an appropriate thing for a man to do in front of his wife and child (who were both shocked and terrified by his outburst)?
> 
> Nuc ... perhaps you should start a thread on this subject (as you previously posted), what you learn might surprise you.
> 
> The men on this thread have dismissed and trivialized the very real experiences of women and, I must say that I am glad I am not married to anyone with similar views and that my H is now an EX.


I wasn't meaning to be dismissive of anyone's feelings or experiences.


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## vellocet

turnera said:


> Are you saying that him hitting the wall will not / should not make her afraid? Are you saying that because she hurt him, she's not allowed to be afraid that he will hurt her?


Its ridiculous to think she is not allowed to be afraid. Of course she is allowed. Her feelings are her feelings.

But if she is afraid of him hitting the wall because she made him mad and he decided to release his frustration out on an inanimate object, that's not his fault.

I've never hit anyone, and don't intend to start unless in self defense, that is in my character and training. And if someone does something to hurt me and I am mad enough that I hit a wall or go downstairs and take it out on the heavy bag, then that is my right. At least I'm not going to hit someone else over it.

Sure she can be scared, but the fact that she pissed him off and he felt the need to hit something other than her does not make him some sort of monster.


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## IIJokerII

Just reading the first post was enough. And the answer is yes, in many ways it is a deal breaker and unless the earth is moved or other heavily extreme repair methods or means. Would I use a Toothbrush a buddy borrowed or keep a pair of shoes that a dirty pair of sweaty and stinky feat went into, no, they be made ready for the trash.


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