# Is it common for a wife to refuse to be naked during sex and why are women insecure?



## Jack I (Nov 23, 2012)

First off how common is it for a wife to refuse to be naked during sex with her husband?Wife doesn't always like to completely naked during sex.....And where do women's insecurities come from?Why would you still be insecure even with a man that you're married to?


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## H30 (Nov 23, 2013)

A woman's self esteem (or lack of) has so many factors. Society, family, heck look at some of the post some men have written about their significant there's weight or looks. 
I grew up with horrible body image. I know I currently at a healthy weight and yet I still am uncomfortable in my own skin.
I wish I could offer advice.....just keep telling her or showing her how much you love her body.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Meh, I would have ended it.

Still, have you tried having sex in the dark then while she's on the verge turn the lights on? lol... wait, ok that's a douche move... nevermind >.<!


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Jack I said:


> First off how common is it for a wife to refuse to be naked during sex with her husband?Wife doesn't always like to completely naked during sex.....And where do women's insecurities come from?Why would you still be insecure even with a man that you're married to?


Women are taught from a very young age to be hypercritical of our bodies. We're constantly told that the only thing that matters is how we look, and how we look is never good enough. And it's everywhere: in the media, on the streets, even family and friends often reinforce these attitudes.

I've seen the most gorgeous girls unhappy with the way they look because of this or that flaw. Body image is a huge issue for women -- and so of course they carry it into their marriages.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

What most women don't get is that they are THE most beautiful woman in the world... when they are the only naked woman in the room.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

sandc said:


> What most women don't get is that they are THE most beautiful woman in the world... when they are the only naked woman in the room.


Lol, quoted for truth :smthumbup:


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## ankh (Oct 14, 2012)

*Re: Re: Is it common for a wife to refuse to be naked during sex and why are women in*



H30 said:


> A woman's self esteem (or lack of) has so many factors. Society, family, heck look at some of the post some men have written about their significant there's weight or looks.
> I grew up with horrible body image. I know I currently at a healthy weight and yet I still am uncomfortable in my own skin.
> I wish I could offer advice.....just keep telling her or showing her how much you love her body.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* on Android_


Are you outgrowing that negative self image now?


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## MyHappyPlace (Aug 11, 2013)

When I first met my H, I KNEW I was the most gorgeous thing on planet Earth. I was 23 and had men hitting on me all the time, including him who was 37 at the time. I still wanted to make love with the lights off but was always flattered when he would insist on having them on. That was 6.5 years ago. 

Today, I'm absolutely repulsed by myself and believe he is too. In all of our years together, he has told me that I'm attractive/complimented me a total of 3 times... and all under duress. When either put on the spot by somebody else or because I was a hot mess of tears wailing about how ugly I felt. Never have I felt that it was heartfelt and sincere. Now when we have intercourse, he never looks at me and rarely even bothers to take his headphones off. Add to that the fact that what used to be a minimum of every day has dropped to me having to initiate because if it were up to him, we'd have sex maybe twice a month, and my self sense of beauty has withered and died.

I can look in a mirror and in my head, I know I'm an attractive person. I still get wolf whistled at and told I'm gorgeous by my family. But in my heart, I feel like I disgust him and that makes me despise myself. 

So Jack, when you ask "Why would you still be insecure even with a man that you're married to?" consider that there may be others out there, like myself, that feel insecure BECAUSE of the man we are married to.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Two thoughts come to my mind here.....she is not comfortable with her own body and how she looks naked even if she is gorgeous OR she feels she needs to protect herself from you in some way. The clothes are her own protection. If she feels she is doing this to only please you and this is not exactly what she wants to do she might keep part of her clothes on.

There is a HUGE amount of pressure on women from the time they are little to look pretty, to dress pretty, to be thin. Let's face it a majority of us are not model material but the ads, the magazines, movies, the messages we get from other women and the comments men make about thin attractive ladies vs larger women make an impact on us.

She needs a way for HERSELF to boost her own confidence. You can tell her she is pretty and I hope you do but unless she feels it (even if she is) she won't hear you. She needs to take steps to make herself feel comfortable about her. That might mean finding a good friend or social out let, perhaps finding a job or hobby that she loves, it might mean losing a few pounds and learning how to dress herself in styles she admires.


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## patrice84 (Nov 11, 2013)

Make her feel beautiful during the day!


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## H30 (Nov 23, 2013)

ankh said:


> Are you outgrowing that negative self image now?


I don't think "outgrowing" is the correct term. It is something I challenge more and I work on almost daily. Actually this is what I want to direct my focus on for others professionally when I finish school. 
I have seen women in their 50s and older that have the distorted image of themselves...sad really that this seems to be ok or acceptable.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

This is not just a woman thing either, it's just that it is far more talked about...women's self image issues. Many men have just as many self image issues that are reinforced through the media and our partners.

Unless you have that sculpted six pack and the rest of the body to go with it, as a guy, you are religated to goofy screw up dad that is pitied for being inept. Many women are just as likely to tell their spouses that they are attractive while openly drooling over the latest hot guy on the big screen, or in the Joe Boxer commercial.

Men are just better at hiding how it bothers us.


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## ClimbingTheWalls (Feb 16, 2013)

Women's insecurities often come from inside their head and there is not a great deal you can do about it except reassure them.

Someone has posted that insecurities can come from the man (possibly inadvertently imo) so that is another source.

As for not being completely naked during sex, just let her do what she is comfortable with. I think that partially clothed sex can be a lot of fun, so make the most of it and don't put her under pressure to disrobe. The more pressure she feels the less likely she will be to want sex with you.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

When I had the perfect body - before kids/ many C-sections.... I didn't want him to see me in the light.. I was self conscience.. looking back, for me it was purely a "mindset" thing...feeling uncomfortable with my own sexuality, being uneducated, shy in sex...too much of a "good girl" mindset clouding me...parts of me was "caged"....and yes, even with my own husband....

Strangely...I always loved SEX...& wanted those orgasms like mad....but at the same time, too taboo to talk about these things openly...and just acted like a shy school girl.....preferring the lights out, at least DIM....and under a sheet...

My husband LOVED my body but he wasn't one to PUSH me to be in the light, he just allowed me to go on my merry inhibited way... taking what I would give/ show him.. which looking back... I feel was a grave mistake on his part...HE being the more HOT partner back then... should have been playing up the flirting ...just being more OVERT to how he felt & what he wanted.... which could have slowly pulled me out of this ridiculousness... he was too much of a Gentleman in sex....so I remained "stunted", not really thinking all that much about it even. 

The most he did to try to get me out of this was -wanting to take naked Pics every now & then, he wasn't into photography at all -so this was flattering I guess... but still My mind seemed to gravitate more to "just give me some lingerie" instead of shaking it "naked" in front of him... 

As I've grown older and many kids later...all of this was blown to the wind ... with my hormones going haywire in mid life... I am perfectly content with myself in front of him, not trying to wear a fig leaf in his presence ... but ...what a waste it was ....how I wish I could get those years back.. If I had the sexual confidence I have NOW - back then before he was a YOUNG STUD..... we would have never gotten out of bed....we wasted many years...being....well... mindless.... in this way.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

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SimplyAmorous said:


> When I had the perfect body - before kids/ many C-sections.... I didn't want him to see me in the light.. I was self conscience.. looking back, for me it was purely a "mindset" thing...feeling uncomfortable with my own sexuality, being uneducated, shy in sex...too much of a "good girl" mindset clouding me...parts of me was "caged"....and yes, even with my own husband....
> 
> Strangely...I always loved SEX...& wanted those orgasms like mad....but at the same time, too taboo to talk about these things openly...and just acted like a shy school girl.....preferring the lights out, at least DIM....and under a sheet...
> 
> ...


You pretty much described my wife.


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## SaltInWound (Jan 2, 2013)

MyHappyPlace said:


> So Jack, when you ask "Why would you still be insecure even with a man that you're married to?" consider that there may be others out there, like myself, that feel insecure BECAUSE of the man we are married to.


:iagree: I no longer have the body of a porn star, but I get plenty of attention from other men. Stbxh used every opportunity possible to make me feel horrible about my body. Many verbal insults and repulsed looks on his face. Nobody wants to come out of surgery and have their husband laugh and call them Bride of Frankenstein's monster for many years later. Sexual rejection, lights out, not touching me, and positioning me so that my flaws could not be seen. He made it very clear that he was not attracted to me, and as a result, I feel like no man would be sexually attracted to me once the clothes are removed. I now fear intimacy. I am afraid of seeing that same look of repulsion on the face of a different man.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Install mirrors in the room! 

Like throwing an arachnophobe into a pool of spiders! Would be fun, so remember to take pictures!


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

sandc said:


> What most women don't get is that they are THE most beautiful woman in the world... when they are the only naked woman in the room.


Ugh! I'm sure you meant to be nice, but to me this is both insulting and condescending.

A woman is beautiful when she happens to be the only woman sexually available to a guy. Big eff'n deal.

All that does is reinforce the idea that women are completely interchangeable, as the only thing that matters is our sexual availability to men.

All it does is make me want to bring another naked woman into the room so I can leave already.


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## ankh (Oct 14, 2012)

I don't necessarily think sandc meant that. only he can clarify what he really meant. 
if a man truly loves a woman his lover, his wife, etc., he will love her for much more than her physical being, i.e., he will be less superficial and more deep and care about what she does what she thinks, how she can help him how he can help her.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

MyHappyPlace said:


> So Jack, when you ask "Why would you still be insecure even with a man that you're married to?" consider that there may be others out there, like myself, that feel insecure BECAUSE of the man we are married to.


QFT!

All my life men have made it clear that I'm not desirable. [email protected], sure, but not beautiful or desirable. Matters not that I've a body that any porn star would be proud to flaunt, as it wasn't me that first noticed my flaws. Men/boys made sure to point them all out to me.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Sometimes it's because of the man you're naked around and other times it's because you just don't feel sexy.

In front of the ex I hated being naked bc I knew I wasn't his ideal body type.I was hot but not hot enough.

In front of my husband I enjoy being naked bc it's so obvious he can't get enough of seeing me.But I sometimes wear the dreaded tank top or slinky lingerie on the days I feel gross looking.He hates that and will usually complain incessantly til I take it off.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

Based on some of the thread titles you've started on here, I would say it isn't only your wife who has the problem.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

ankh said:


> I don't necessarily think sandc meant that. only he can clarify what he really meant.
> if a man truly loves a woman his lover, his wife, etc., he will love her for much more than her physical being, i.e., he will be less superficial and more deep and care about what she does what she thinks, how she can help him how he can help her.


Thank you.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Ugh! I'm sure you meant to be nice, but to me this is both insulting and condescending.
> 
> A woman is beautiful when she happens to be the only woman sexually available to a guy. Big eff'n deal.
> 
> ...


What an attitude. 

Yes I meant it to be nice. FYI, I got that phrase from a woman. Pour your venom out on her.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Jack I said:


> First off how common is it for a wife to refuse to be naked during sex with her husband?Wife doesn't always like to completely naked during sex.....And where do women's insecurities come from?Why would you still be insecure even with a man that you're married to?


I think this is UNcommon. Most women are naked during sex (I think). Perhaps it's best to ask your wife why she does this and where her insecurity stems from.

This seems abnormal to me.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

always_alone said:


> QFT!
> 
> All my life men have made it clear that I'm not desirable. [email protected], sure, but not beautiful or desirable. Matters not that I've a body that any porn star would be proud to flaunt, as it wasn't me that first noticed my flaws. Men/boys made sure to point them all out to me.


And why do you choose to stay with these men? The choice is yours...


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> When I had the perfect body - before kids/ many C-sections....* I didn't want him to see me in the light*.. I was self conscience.. looking back, for me it was purely a "mindset" thing...feeling uncomfortable with my own sexuality, being uneducated, shy in sex...too much of a "good girl" mindset clouding me...parts of me was "caged"....and yes, even with my own husband....
> 
> My husband LOVED my body but he wasn't one to PUSH me to be in the light, he just allowed me to go
> The most he did to try to get me out of this was -wanting to take naked Pics every now & then, he wasn't into photography at all -so this was flattering I guess... but still My mind seemed to gravitate more to "just give me some lingerie" instead of shaking it "naked" in front of him...
> ...


Aww. That is sad. But hey, you are making up for lost time.

one of my favorite things is having sex... in the daylight/sunlight/lights on. Seeing skin and bodies = amazing.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> And why do you choose to stay with these men? The choice is yours...


exactly.Who the heck are these men? I don't have a porn star body and I've NEVER EVER been told by a man that I have flaws.My ex husband hinted around at it but notice he's an EX husband.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

I've seen several posts mention porn star bodies in this thread. Is this even the standard? What kind of porn are you people watching? Most of the ladies in porn look very artificial to me. I prefer a real women. Not interested in the silicon injected variety.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

Since you think that your wife should be embarrassed in front of a male gynecologist, why are you surprised that she is not comfortable with her body?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

skype said:


> Since you think that your wife should be embarrassed in front of a male gynecologist, why are you surprised that she is not comfortable with her body?


:iagree:


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I've seen several posts mention porn star bodies in this thread. Is this even the standard? What kind of porn are you people watching? Most of the ladies in porn look very artificial to me. I prefer a real women. Not interested in the silicon injected variety.


Yes, porn star bodies are a standard, as are actresses and models. Women believe that men want us to look like that or so many men wouldn't be spanking the monkey to the women in porn or drooling over the Hollywood hotties.

Porn stars and movie stars are just that - stars. They wouldn't be stars if men didn't find them appealing and attractive.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

Yep,I hate to say it but I've never seen a man open up a Lane Bryant catalog and drool over those "real" women.

When men talk about wanting "real" women I laugh and shake my head bc many of those men are spanking it to porn on the daily.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

ReformedHubby said:


> I've seen several posts mention porn star bodies in this thread. Is this even the standard? What kind of porn are you people watching? Most of the ladies in porn look very artificial to me. I prefer a real women. Not interested in the silicon injected variety.


Absolutely. My wife's body is not porn star quality but I love her figure and the way her body feels. I think she got sexier after she had the kids. Maybe I'm an anomaly, I don't know.


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

skype said:


> Since you think that your wife should be embarrassed in front of a male gynecologist, why are you surprised that she is not comfortable with her body?


Now it all makes sense...


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

sandc said:


> What an attitude.
> 
> Yes I meant it to be nice. FYI, I got that phrase from a woman. Pour your venom out on her.


It doesn't matter who the phrase came from, and all I was doing was expressing my reaction to it. And the last thing it does is make me feel beautiful or desirable.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Jellybeans said:


> And why do you choose to stay with these men? The choice is yours...


Who said I stayed with them, or was even ever with them in the first place?

Right from the second I started hitting puberty, guys started making fun of me for the way I looked. Before that I was oblivious. Now, decades later, I feel quite good in my own skin and don't worry about it.

But the lesson has been learned: guys find *other* women attractive (unless, of course, I happen to be the only naked one in the room).


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

always_alone said:


> It doesn't matter who the phrase came from, and all I was doing was expressing my reaction to it. And the last thing it does is make me feel beautiful or desirable.


So what does make you feel beautiful?


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Who said I stayed with them, or was even ever with them in the first place?
> 
> Right from the second I started hitting puberty, guys started making fun of me for the way I looked. Before that I was oblivious. Now, decades later, I feel quite good in my own skin and don't worry about it.
> 
> But the lesson has been learned: guys find *other* women attractive (unless, of course, I happen to be the only naked one in the room).


And women don't find me attractive. So what? Maybe I got lucky because I found "the one" but she's the only woman in the world that finds me attractive and that's enough for me. I think you're probably focusing too much on looks too. Find an ugly guy. We're very appreciative. Worked for my wife.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

sandc said:


> Absolutely. My wife's body is not porn star quality but I love her figure and the way her body feels. I think she got sexier after she had the kids. Maybe I'm an anomaly, I don't know.


Errr, but don't you see the implicit comparison here? Sure you love your wife and her body, but it's still "not porn star quality."

Women get these comparisons constantly, and know they are still not measuring up, even to those that love them the most.

It's a struggle to learn how to stop the comparisons, and just feel good about the way you look, and even when you make it, there are still constant reminders that you still don't really measure up.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

There's always someone better.Men are under pressure to look good too.Women are always drooling over some athlete or movie star or MensHealth mag cover.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Errr, but don't you see the implicit comparison here? Sure you love your wife and her body, but it's still "not porn star quality."
> 
> Women get these comparisons constantly, and know that are still not measuring up, even to those that love them the most.
> 
> It's a struggle to learn how to stop the comparisons, and just feel good about the way you look, and even when you make it, there are still constant reminders that you still don't really measure up.


But I'm a man who's short. 5'3". There is nothing I can ever do about that. Every time almost every woman describes her dream man how does it start? "He has to be tall..." What does that imply for me? Should I walk around feeling less of a man because I'm short?


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> There's always someone better.Men are under pressure to look good too.Women are always drooling over some athlete or movie star or MensHealth mag cover.


:iagree:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Jack, as I recall your wife used to be extremely heavy and has lost some weight due to lap band surgery. Even if she has lost weight, she might still see herself as she did when she was very heavy.

Women are constantly told that they do not live up to perfection and must strive to be more like the highly painted models in magazines and movie stars. Most of the models we are compared to are 18 or under. They are not even full grown women yet. But that's what some think we should look like.

Revlon's slogan is "In the factory we make cosmetics. In the store we sell hope." 

They sell hope. Hope for what? Hope that the average woman can look like the models and movie stars. Their slogan basically says that no woman is perfect and needs their products to gain 'hope' of ever even coming close to what men want.

You have posted here a lot of things that show your own insecurities. Why pick on your wife's insecurities? Instead work on your own.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> There's always someone better.Men are under pressure to look good too.Women are always drooling over some athlete or movie star or MensHealth mag cover.


I *never* do this. I never salivate over random stars or compare my man unfavorably to others. I would never say that he isn't porn star quality or movie star handsome.

And while I agree that men are also under pressure to look good, and that some women are as guilty as any man for drooling over others, I don't think it happens quite as incessantly for men, or with the same impact.

You see, I disagree that there is always someone better. Maybe my SO doesn't have the best this or that in the universe, but there isn't anyone better. 

Yes, there will always be someone who is younger than me, or has more beautiful hair, eyes, body, or whatever. This doesn't bother me in the slightest. But it does when I find out that it makes them better.

Do you see what I mean?


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

I think your perception of yourself needs adjustment. Peace. I've said all I can say. I'll shut up now.


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## Rayloveshiswife (Sep 25, 2013)

My wife is the same way. Near impossible to get her topless during sex. Best I can usually hope for is for her to wear a cammi or loose t they I can pull up. Her problem comes from the fact test she was once 125lbs heavier and still has the extra skin from being so overweight. I constantly call her sexy and beautiful (as I did when she was heavier too), but she has a hard time taking the compliment and will never beleive them in her heart. Best I can do is pour on the compliments and continue loving all over her. She is 43 years old. 

I did make a breakthrough recently. Used to be sex was only in the dark. Now she lets me light candles. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

This thread isn't about me, or what I should or should not feel. My only point here is to explain that women are constantly compared to porn and movie star ideals and often found to be lacking, even by those that love them.

This is why some are insecure, and might not want to be naked around their husbands.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I *never* do this. I never salivate over random stars or compare my man unfavorably to others. I would never say that he isn't porn star quality or movie star handsome.
> Good for you and good for your man...many other women are very different though.
> And while I agree that men are also under pressure to look good, and that some women are as guilty as any man for drooling over others, I don't think it happens quite as incessantly for men, or with the same impact.
> really? Well,you're not a man so you can't say how it impacts them for sure.From what I've been told,by a few men that I've asked,they feel just as much pressure and they feel just as much self loathing due to advertising and hollywood.Many,many men walk around with their self esteem in the toilet for the same reasons as women.They just don't complain about it or let it overcome their lives the way women often do.
> ...


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## Feeling-Lonely (Nov 13, 2013)

I personally feel more attractive with some nice underwear on, I think being completely naked is not very erotic, it is natural, but not hot. 
It is almost like going to sauna with your close friends and family naked. Nothing "sexy" about that.

Buy her something sexy to wear and she will feel attractive and wanted.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I heard this on Dr. Laura one time where she said alot of women due to insecurity will reject their husbands advances, touches, refuse sex, etc. because they are ashamed of their bodies. She said that does alot of damage to their marriages and can cause problems.

She said for a man, the hottest thing is knowing their woman is hot for them. Perfect body or NOT they love it if their woman is hot for sex and lets them enjoy their body.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

highwood said:


> I heard this on Dr. Laura one time where she said alot of women due to insecurity will reject their husbands advances, touches, refuse sex, etc. because they are ashamed of their bodies. She said that does alot of damage to their marriages and can cause problems.


So incredibly true.I almost feel so many ladies label themselves as low drive/no drive incorrectly.Many of them aren't LD/ ND at all...they're just too ashamed of their bodies to feel sexy enough for sex,touching,etc.
Not feeling beautiful and sexy really messes with your desire for physical love.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I work with a gal whose sister in law is in her mid 50s and men are just drawn to her..she said she has seen guys hit on her like crazy.

She said her SIL is okay looking, she is not drop dead gorgeous, but she exudes this confidence and has this wild crazy fun attitude that people see and they seem to love it.

She said she went on a trip with her and guys in their 30s were making moves on her...

To me as a woman of 45 I find that motivational in that it clearly shows that it is all in attitude and confidenc and that age is just a number.


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## Lordhavok (Mar 14, 2012)

Chicks are eat up with "barbie doll syndrome", they so worried about stuff that us dudes never notice half the time, the little parts that jiggle, size of their feet,size of their t*ts, this or that, the list just goes on and on. All us dudes are worried about is how big our d*ck is. Lots of pressure on women today, dont know why that is. I've seen some of the most knock out gorgeous women with some ugly dudes. And they complain how they look.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

highwood said:


> She said for a man, the hottest thing is knowing their woman is hot for them. Perfect body or NOT they love it if their woman is hot for sex and lets them enjoy their body.


This this this! :iagree:

Throw in a little phallic worship and I'll die a happy man.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm going to do a minor threadjack here and out myself as a naturist or nudist. I don't have a picture perfect body by ANY stretch of the imagination but I accept who I am. If you skip down to the "Body Image" portion of this article it does a really good job of summing up the damage that Western Society has done to women's pysche's and body images.

Body Image | Body Acceptance | Body Love Articles and Blogs By YNA

Threadjack over.


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

In the same vein,DH and I just did a comparison today. How I see my body vs how he sees my body using pics we found online. I am still stunned at the difference. If no one minds,I can post the two pics.


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## MaBi123 (Nov 28, 2013)

MyHappyPlace said:


> When I first met my H, I KNEW I was the most gorgeous thing on planet Earth. I was 23 and had men hitting on me all the time, including him who was 37 at the time. I still wanted to make love with the lights off but was always flattered when he would insist on having them on. That was 6.5 years ago.
> 
> Today, I'm absolutely repulsed by myself and believe he is too. In all of our years together, he has told me that I'm attractive/complimented me a total of 3 times... and all under duress. When either put on the spot by somebody else or because I was a hot mess of tears wailing about how ugly I felt. Never have I felt that it was heartfelt and sincere. Now when we have intercourse, he never looks at me and rarely even bothers to take his headphones off. Add to that the fact that what used to be a minimum of every day has dropped to me having to initiate because if it were up to him, we'd have sex maybe twice a month, and my self sense of beauty has withered and died.
> 
> ...


What changed? I am around the same age as you and I look basically the same as I did at 23. I'm sure you don't look that much different. Did something happen to you emotionally? Sorry if I'm being too personal or nosy...


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## MaBi123 (Nov 28, 2013)

ScarletBegonias said:


> In the same vein,DH and I just did a comparison today. How I see my body vs how he sees my body using pics we found online. I am still stunned at the difference. If no one minds,I can post the two pics.


My fiance has done the same thing with similar results. He always thinks I look better than I think I do. He even says I have a big butt (in a good way, not a fat way) and I think it is super flat. 

Body image is a funny thing isn't it?


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> In the same vein,DH and I just did a comparison today. How I see my body vs how he sees my body using pics we found online. I am still stunned at the difference. If no one minds,I can post the two pics.


I don't think anyone minds if you don't.


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## MaBi123 (Nov 28, 2013)

What I hate is that men don't seem to realize how much plastic surgery, professional make up, and photoshop changes the way models and actresses look. Have you ever seen those before and after pictures? Some of the actresses are unrecognizable.

Then these men compare their wives to women who aren't real in the first place. How can we win?


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

MaBi123 said:


> My fiance has done the same thing with similar results. He always thinks I look better than I think I do. He even says I have a big butt (in a good way, not a fat way) and I think it is super flat.
> 
> Body image is a funny thing isn't it?


Along those lines, have you seen this video? Women describe themselves to a FBI forensic artist and he sketches them based on their description, then he sketches them as how he SEES them. Then the women are shown the two different sketches of them. The differences between their perceptions of themselves and reality is startling.

Dove Real Beauty Sketches - YouTube


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

ok,this was the one I picked for myself:










These are the two he picked.First one being the one he said is a 100% match for body,hair,and face.




















It's really amazing to me.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

MaBi123 said:


> What I hate is that men don't seem to realize how much plastic surgery, professional make up, and photoshop changes the way models and actresses look. Have you ever seen those before and after pictures? Some of the actresses are unrecognizable.
> 
> Then these men compare their wives to women who aren't real in the first place. How can we win?


But apparently some women don't realize it either. Stop buying the lies.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

ScarletBegonias said:


> ok,this was the one I picked for myself:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I personally find all three of these women attractive. I find their figures especially attractive. Am I an anomaly?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

sandc said:


> I personally find all three of these women attractive. I find their figures especially attractive. Am I an anomaly?


He found the first girl VERY attractive.So do I. He just said "no.that's not you at all.she has a sexy body but you don't look like her."


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

See and most men I know would find all those women VERY attractive and sexy. I don't think it's just me. I wonder how much of this unrealistic ideal of beauty women put on themselves? I personally DON'T LIKE skinny women. I find most models repulsive because the have the figures of little boys and I'm not into little boys. In fact, I don't personally know a single man who finds any of the models in magazines attractive.

Now, do they watch porn? Yes but! I wonder how much of that is because the porn star is the only naked woman in the room?

Anyway, I'll stop because I'm probably just digging a deeper hole for myself.


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## MaBi123 (Nov 28, 2013)

sandc said:


> But apparently some women don't realize it either. Stop buying the lies.


? Who says I do?


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## ScarletBegonias (Jun 26, 2012)

sandc said:


> See and most men I know would find all those women VERY attractive and sexy. I don't think it's just me. I wonder how much of this unrealistic ideal of beauty women put on themselves? I personally DON'T LIKE skinny women. I find most models repulsive because the have the figures of little boys and I'm not into little boys. In fact, I don't personally know a single man who finds any of the models in magazines attractive.
> 
> Now, do they watch porn? Yes but! I wonder how much of that is because the porn star is the only naked woman in the room?
> 
> Anyway, I'll stop because I'm probably just digging a deeper hole for myself.


I personally feel women put more pressure on each other than men put on women.

In a room full of men I feel sexy,powerful,confident. In a room full of women I want to blend in so no one talks sh*t about me or ridicules me.

Not sure about the porn connection.I know there are some curvy girl porn stars but not too many.Any time I've busted a man lying to me about viewing porn they've always been looking at the teeny 18yr old chicks...never the curvy women.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

sandc said:


> I personally find all three of these women attractive. I find their figures especially attractive. Am I an anomaly?


I think they're all gorgeous. But they aren't at all like the figures you see on every single tv show, movie, magazine, beer commercial, porn or anything not related to "plus" sized women. 

Do I think men are attracted to these women in their real lives - absolutely! Very much so. But that's not what women learn that men are attracted to based on how women are portrayed in media.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

MaBi123 said:


> What I hate is that men don't seem to realize how much plastic surgery, professional make up, and photoshop changes the way models and actresses look. Have you ever seen those before and after pictures? Some of the actresses are unrecognizable.
> 
> Then these men compare their wives to women who aren't real in the first place. How can we win?


I really think that it is just as prevalent among women, making comparisons, as it is among men. I just think that it is far more socially acceptible for women to drool and be vocal than it is for men. If men do it, we are pigs, and ruining womens self esteem. If women do it, the men just need to be more secure. I also think men are more likely to internalize the damage being done because of social conditioning. It is really unmanly for a man to say he has low self esteem because of how he looks. Alpha up right?

I think it is also easier for men to deal with because in a relationship, women are generally looking for more things than men. Men have more options to up their attractiveness. Generally speaking, women look for financial and physical security, good fathers, non abusive men. Men don't generally look for physical or financial security from women, being a good mother is lower on the list. Sure, we don;t like abuse either, but His Needs/Her Needs spells it out pretty well in that mens needs are geared more towards the physical.

Yes, looks in a man are very important to women. They do notice, and are often very vocal that they do, even to their own partners. Unfortunately, they often don't even stop to think that they are doing any damage at all.


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## swade87 (Oct 23, 2013)

sandc said:


> I personally find all three of these women attractive. I find their figures especially attractive. Am I an anomaly?


My fiance has photos like these all over his computer. Women this shape and size are his type hands down. He thinks a size 10/12, with big hips, is perfection. He wishes I would go up a size. I've dated other guys who like this body type as well. I'm a size 8/10, curvy and well padded. I honestly get more attention from men of all types at this size than I did when I was a size 6, and I love my body more now than ever. 

He (my fiance) is the first man I've ever felt completely comfortable with while naked. I would get naked for sex before him, but I never REALLY enjoyed doing so. 

TIP FOR THE MEN: When my fiance and are were first dating, he walked in on me one morning as I was getting out of the shower. I tried to cover up quickly.. just being shy, and he literally pulled the towel off of me. He took me to the mirror, softly touched and kissed all of my body parts (arms, stomach, butt, neck, everything), and as he moved his hands over me he whispered, "I love this. And this. And this. This is perfect. I REALLY love this," etc. It was the most amazing thing I think any guy has ever done to my body and done for my self esteem, and from that point on I've felt nothing less than beautiful to him and with him.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

norajane said:


> I think they're all gorgeous. But they aren't at all like the figures you see on every single tv show, movie, magazine, beer commercial, porn or anything not related to "plus" sized women.
> 
> Do I think men are attracted to these women in their real lives - absolutely! Very much so. But that's not what women learn that men are attracted to based on how women are portrayed in media.


And look how men are protrayed in the media. Either you're a totally ripped hot guy in a commercial, or a fat clueless bumbling bafoon of a man, husband, father. Not many decent but normal looking guys who are attentive fathers and good husbands who treat their wives well, are caring and sensitive.

How many movies is the plot built around the guy who is an alright guy, but the woman falls in love with some other man and ends up with him, and we are supposed to cheer that? Now, how many movies have the guy falling in love with another woman where that is supposed to be a good thing?

Granted, there may be exceptions to those common things, but not many.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

swade87 said:


> TIP FOR THE MEN: When my fiance and are were first dating, he walked in on me one morning as I was getting out of the shower. I tried to cover up quickly.. just being shy, and he literally pulled the towel off of me. He took me to the mirror, softly touched and kissed all of my body parts (arms, stomach, butt, neck, everything), and as he moved his hands over me he whispered, "I love this. And this. And this. This is perfect. I REALLY love this," etc. It was the most amazing thing I think any guy has ever done to my body and done for my self esteem, and from that point on I've felt nothing less than beautiful to him and with him.


I have actually done this! And still do. When she starts to talk badly about herself I interrupt with feigned indignation in my voice and shout "HEY! Don't you ever talk that way about the woman I love." Followed up with a gentle smile and lots of love and reassurance that she is perfect AS IS!


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ScarletBegonias said:


> I personally feel women put more pressure on each other than men put on women.
> 
> In a room full of men I feel sexy,powerful,confident. In a room full of women I want to blend in so no one talks sh*t about me or ridicules me.
> 
> Not sure about the porn connection.I know there are some curvy girl porn stars but not too many.Any time I've busted a man lying to me about viewing porn they've always been looking at the teeny 18yr old chicks...never the curvy women.


I personally feel that men put more pressure on women than women do on each other. I've never experienced women ridiculing me or talking sh*t about me, or other women. But I've sure seen it in a roomful of men. In spades.

As for porn, I hear men comparing their wives to women in porn all of the time, and it's usually the ones in porn that are said to be more attractive.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> And look how men are protrayed in the media. Either you're a totally ripped hot guy in a commercial, or a fat clueless bumbling bafoon of a man, husband, father. Not many decent but normal looking guys who are attentive fathers and good husbands who treat their wives well, are caring and sensitive.
> 
> How many movies is the plot built around the guy who is an alright guy, but the woman falls in love with some other man and ends up with him, and we are supposed to cheer that? Now, how many movies have the guy falling in love with another woman where that is supposed to be a good thing?
> 
> Granted, there may be exceptions to those common things, but not many.


I get what you're saying, and agree that those stereotypes are equally damaging for men. 

What a woman might notice, however, is that even those fat, bumbling buffoon guys on tv also have very hot tv wives who fit the slender paradigm.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

sandc said:


> When she starts to talk badly about herself I interrupt with feigned indignation in my voice and shout "HEY! Don't you ever talk that way about the woman I love." Followed up with a gentle smile and lots of love and reassurance that she is perfect AS IS!


Now this is one way to make your SO feel beautiful and desirable!!

So much better than the only naked woman in the room.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I personally feel that men put more pressure on women than women do on each other. I've never experienced women ridiculing me or talking sh*t about me, or other women. But I've sure seen it in a roomful of men. In spades.
> 
> As for porn, I hear men comparing their wives to women in porn all of the time, and it's usually the ones in porn that are said to be more attractive.


And I have heard many women claim that the reason they get all dressed and sexied up is for the other women, not to parade for the guys...I'm with you on this one...I think women who say that are full of crap.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

norajane said:


> I get what you're saying, and agree that those stereotypes are equally damaging for men.
> 
> What a woman might notice, however, is that even those fat, bumbling buffoon guys on tv also have very hot tv wives who fit the slender paradigm.


Also, the fat, bumbling, buffoon guys are still portrayed as worthy of love by these slender wives, and as having a life, house, kids, etc.

When do you *ever* see a woman who is not totally gorgeous portrayed in anything? Like never?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I personally feel that men put more pressure on women than women do on each other. I've never experienced women ridiculing me or talking sh*t about me, or other women. But I've sure seen it in a roomful of men. In spades.
> 
> As for porn, I hear men comparing their wives to women in porn all of the time, and it's usually the ones in porn that are said to be more attractive.


And my STBW KNOWS beyond a shadow of a doubt that no matter where we are, whether she's the only woman, or in a crowd of a million, she is the prettiest, most beautiful, sexiest one there to me...and you want to know something? She actually is to me.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Also, the fat, bumbling, buffoon guys are still portrayed as worthy of love by these slender wives, and as having a life, house, kids, etc.
> 
> When do you *ever* see a woman who is not totally gorgeous portrayed in anything? Like never?


They are the mousey or wisecracking best friend or neighbor. We don't remember them because we aren't meant to. They aren't the stars and are only meant to be supporting players to the beauty.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

always_alone said:


> Also, the fat, bumbling, buffoon guys are still portrayed as worthy of love by these slender wives, and as having a life, house, kids, etc.
> 
> When do you *ever* see a woman who is not totally gorgeous portrayed in anything? Like never?


Not sure it's so much worthy of love as worthy of pity...like if it wasn't for her, he'd be nothing.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

My point being...I don't think women have the market cornered on unfair, damaging stereotypes and image issues. I think PEOPLE do a lot of damage to other people, often times without even knowing it, but the real monsters are the ones who do know what they are doing, and do it any way...as my ex wife did to me.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

always_alone said:


> Also, the fat, bumbling, buffoon guys are still portrayed as worthy of love by these slender wives, and as having a life, house, kids, etc.
> 
> When do you *ever* see a woman who is not totally gorgeous portrayed in anything? Like never?


Dunno... Roseanne?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

always_alone said:


> I personally feel that men put more pressure on women than women do on each other. I've never experienced women ridiculing me or talking sh*t about me, or other women. But I've sure seen it in a roomful of men. In spades.
> 
> As for porn, I hear men comparing their wives to women in porn all of the time, and it's usually the ones in porn that are said to be more attractive.


AA are you based in the U.S? I ask because I consider myself a pretty regular guy for the most part, and what you describe just doesn't sound like normal man behavior where I live. 

Yes, guys do talk about female celebrities and compare them to other female celebrities. But these conversations have absolutely nothing to do with our wives. There is fantasy and then there is reality. When amongst a group of other men I don't know any man that would compare their wife's body to a celebrity in a negative way. Now I have heard men use celebrity comparisons to compliment their wives. 

The men I hang around would never insult their wives. First, its disrespectful to her. Secondly, it says that you couldn't do any better, so what are you complaining about?


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I think as well that most men if they go around worshipping some hot celebrity chick cannot honeslty think that they would stand a chance anyway with her. If they do then they are delusional...

I honestly cannot see guys going on about how hot porn actresses are...like seriously porn actresses....when I look at people in porn I often think I wonder if they have an STD?????


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

always_alone said:


> I personally feel that men put more pressure on women than women do on each other.* I've never experienced women ridiculing me or talking sh*t about me, or other women.* But I've sure seen it in a roomful of men. In spades.


I meant to ask this question in the other post. But you mean to tell me in your entire life another woman has never talked smack about you? I hate to question the validity of that statement. But c'mon. That's impossible. I see it all the time. I'm not saying it makes it right. But women can be pretty mean too when it comes to judging one another. Especially when it comes to what they wear. 

I will out my wife here. She does occasionally take pot shots at women that she feels wear things that are too revealing in public. Just her thing I guess. She's conservative I suppose.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I still maintain that confidence and a zest for life is so appealing to men...I have met women who are smart and fun yet do not look like a covergirl yet guys will go for them in spades...

Then I have seen women who are pretty, etc. but you can tell that they are so insecure..they are always checking themselves out in the mirror and worrying that another more attractive women is nearby...I can't imagine a guy finding that attractive at all...I think that insecure attitude wears thin after a while.

When I was in my late teens I had a waitressing job and this guy would come in and all the girls would go gaga over him..he was some kind of model and yes he was good looking but did nothing for me...one time I saw him in the mall checking himself out in the mirror and he had on riding pants and riding boots and it was like okay why are you dressed like that to go shopping.

The guy did nothing for me...give me a working man anyday...plus I like guys who do not look all perfect and model like. I like a guy who works hard and who is not afraid to get some dirt under their nails...


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## Giro flee (Mar 12, 2013)

I honestly think that both genders bash women. Younger women are more prone to pick out flaws in others, they are still insecure and in direct competition for mates. I don't notice this as much when I am around older women. Back in high school, college, and younger twenties I was around some vicious females.

Men are more likely to do the degrading number system, or the "butter face" comments, beer goggles etc. Sometimes it seems like the minute women start to disagree with a man hurtful insults about looks, weight, or promiscuity come out even if they have nothing to do with the subject at hand. 

Society is shallow, you have to learn how to survive.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

highwood said:


> I still maintain that confidence and a zest for life is so appealing to men...I have met women who are smart and fun yet do not look like a covergirl yet guys will go for them in spades...
> 
> Then I have seen women who are pretty, etc. but you can tell that they are so insecure..they are always checking themselves out in the mirror and worrying that another more attractive women is nearby...I can't imagine a guy finding that attractive at all...I think that insecure attitude wears thin after a while.
> 
> ...


:iagree: For me a woman who moves slowly, deliberately, and confidently gets my attention no matter what she looks like. Yes. No matter what she looks like.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

sandc said:


> Dunno... Roseanne?


Roseanne was paired with a guy fatter than her, just a Melissa Mccarthy is paired with a guy fatter than her. That's the only way big ladies are allowed to have love on screen.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

I ruined my husband's fantasies because I showed him a non photoshopped pic of one of his favorite swimsuit models and he didn't recognize her. She had bumps just like everyone else. Also, I have a good friend that runs a porn site and he's seen her site along with pictures of the two of us, and you can't recognize her.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

I wish that people would realize that what you see on the cover is so very photoshopped...they could probably make the ugliest women in the world look half decent. 

Plus celebrities age just like the rest of us do...and the thing is no matter how much work they get done very rarely are you going to see a 60 year old celebrity and think wow they look like they are 30.


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

How is this for a 60+ women to look....

Helen Mirren: Bikini photo 'will haunt me for the rest of my life' | Mail Online

To me this shows you that you do not have to be 25 to look hot. To me too many women over the age of 40 think that they are washed up because they are not 25 anymore...so not the case.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

highwood said:


> How is this for a 60+ women to look....
> 
> Helen Mirren: Bikini photo 'will haunt me for the rest of my life' | Mail Online
> 
> To me this shows you that you do not have to be 25 to look hot. To me too many women over the age of 40 think that they are washed up because they are not 25 anymore...so not the case.


Helen says in that article that the picture is a lie and she doesn't look like that. Guess it was photoshopped, too.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> I ruined my husband's fantasies because I showed him a non photoshopped pic of one of his favorite swimsuit models and he didn't recognize her. She had bumps just like everyone else. Also, I have a good friend that runs a porn site and he's seen her site along with pictures of the two of us, and you can't recognize her.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And women do the same thing, just not necessarily in the same way. While some men get caught up in the fantasy of a photoshopped, airbrushed woman, some women get caught up in a carefully scripted love scene in a movie with the hot guy and wish their husband would be like that...


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> And women do the same thing, just not necessarily in the same way. While some men get caught up in the fantasy of a photoshopped, airbrushed woman, some women get caught up in a carefully scripted love scene in a movie with the hot guy and wish their husband would be like that...


Said movie scenes make me laugh in the same way that someone over 20 using the term "soulmate" does.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

norajane said:


> Helen says in that article that the picture is a lie and she doesn't look like that. Guess it was photoshopped, too.


Geez...well at least she admitted that..honestly if I was her I would be like awesome


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## highwood (Jan 12, 2012)

lifeistooshort said:


> Said movie scenes make me laugh in the same way that someone over 20 using the term "soulmate" does.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


"Soulmate"


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

lifeistooshort said:


> Roseanne was paired with a guy fatter than her, just a Melissa Mccarthy is paired with a guy fatter than her. That's the only way big ladies are allowed to have love on screen.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm fatter than my wife. I guess she's lucky to have found me.


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## Feeling-Lonely (Nov 13, 2013)

What is attractive is not a certain dress size but is health. 

It goes both ways, skinny smoking models that are developing hearth issues or overweight women that are at risk of diabetes and high blood pressure are not attractive. 

Energetic and healthy people are attractive. Be happy with yourself but remember to do things that are good for your body and mind.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> AA are you based in the U.S? I ask because I consider myself a pretty regular guy for the most part, and what you describe just doesn't sound like normal man behavior where I live.
> 
> Yes, guys do talk about female celebrities and compare them to other female celebrities. But these conversations have absolutely nothing to do with our wives. There is fantasy and then there is reality. When amongst a group of other men I don't know any man that would compare their wife's body to a celebrity in a negative way. Now I have heard men use celebrity comparisons to compliment their wives.
> 
> The men I hang around would never insult their wives. First, its disrespectful to her. Secondly, it says that you couldn't do any better, so what are you complaining about?


No, I'm not based in the US, but I've seen right here on TAM many a man lamenting that his wife or girlfriend is not attractive enough because she doesn't look like a fitness model or porn star. I've also seen guys calling perfectly gorgeous girls "dogs" because of this or that feature that they don't like.

One guy I know is super thrilled because his wife looks like Anne Hathaway, so I've seen the comparison the other way too. But, I've encountered many more stories where guys have made it amply clear that they do not think their wives are attractive enough, and will encourage them to undergo surgical "improvements" so they can measure up to the fantasy.

I find it hard to believe that this is so alien to you. My guess is that it's so normal, you don't even notice, or don't think it remarkable.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

ReformedHubby said:


> I meant to ask this question in the other post. But you mean to tell me in your entire life another woman has never talked smack about you? I hate to question the validity of that statement. But c'mon. That's impossible. I see it all the time. I'm not saying it makes it right. But women can be pretty mean too when it comes to judging one another. Especially when it comes to what they wear.
> 
> I will out my wife here. She does occasionally take pot shots at women that she feels wear things that are too revealing in public. Just her thing I guess. She's conservative I suppose.


I suppose it's possible that it's happened at some point in my life, and I just don't remember, but no, in my experience women don't say mean things about me -- at least not to my face. Who knows what they've said behind my back.

I do know the phenomenon, though, as I have seen women judge others on the way she looks or dresses. But I choose not to participate in such conversations, and not to hang out with people who are interested in this sort of thing.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

norajane said:


> Helen says in that article that the picture is a lie and she doesn't look like that. Guess it was photoshopped, too.


She looked even better on the beach in The Tempest.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

always_alone said:


> I find it hard to believe that this is so alien to you. My guess is that it's so normal, you don't even notice, or don't think it remarkable.


And I might guess that there's a certain amount of selection bias going on here too. 

For every guy here who makes a post about how he's no longer attracted to his frumpy wife, I can find you three who think his wife is the hottest thing since Helen of Troy.

I for one am getting a bit weary of being beat about the head and shoulders for the sins of other men who are, by my estimation, still well in the minority.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

always_alone said:


> No, I'm not based in the US, but *I've seen right here on TAM many a man lamenting that his wife or girlfriend is not attractive enough because she doesn't look like a fitness model or porn star. I've also seen guys calling perfectly gorgeous girls "dogs" because of this or that feature that they don't like.*
> 
> One guy I know is super thrilled because his wife looks like Anne Hathaway, so I've seen the comparison the other way too. But, I've encountered many more stories where guys have made it amply clear that they do not think their wives are attractive enough, and will encourage them to undergo surgical "improvements" so they can measure up to the fantasy.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that this is so alien to you. My guess is that it's so normal, you don't even notice, or don't think it remarkable.


Sure there have been some who have done that, but from my experience, the posts countering that, the number of men talking about how attractive, how attracted to their wives they are far outnumber the ones who lament.

If it will make you feel better, I will repeat my feelings about my STBW here, as I have made them clear numerous times all across these boards...

Hands down, my STBW is the MOST attractive woman I have ever seen, or known. I find her attractive in every way. The waves in her hair, the freckles, the way she curls her feet when she is concentrating, the way she twirls her hair around her fingers, her smile, OMG, she has the most gorgeous and kissable lips EVER, the way she talks wen she is being playfully serious, the way she argues with me over Jeopardy answers, the way she says thank you when I do something for her, the way her fac lights up when I say thank you to her, the way her hand fits perfectly in mine when we are out, the way the small of her back feels as I lead her into a room, the sound of her breathing as she falls asleep snuggled into me. She is pure artwork to me. A masterpiece.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

Also, my STBW KNOWS just how attractive she is to me, and we have sex naked, with the lights on.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Cletus said:


> And I might guess that there's a certain amount of selection bias going on here too.
> 
> For every guy here who makes a post about how he's no longer attracted to his frumpy wife, I can find you three who think his wife is the hottest thing since Helen of Troy.
> 
> I for one am getting a bit weary of being beat about the head and shoulders for the sins of other men who are, by my estimation, still well in the minority.


No one is trying to beat you about the head for the sins of other men. If it doesn't apply, it doesn't apply.

But honestly, these attitudes are not the minority. 
-analyses of rock, country, and rap music have shown that in a majority of cases, women are presented as unintelligent, sex objects or as victims or subservience
-worldwide stats indicate that some 35 per cent of women are subjected to sexual violence, a huge proportion of which is perpetrated by intimate partners. 
--study after study indicates that women are viewed as objects in a way that men are not
-- analyses of various media show that when reporting on women, their looks will inevitably be highlighted and commented on, and the same is not true of men.

Now you could argue that none of these examples has anything to do with how individual men feel about their girlfriends and wives, but I think it does. Men have internalized these attitudes as much as women have, and many don't even view them as problematic. Remember that there are also a lot of wives here who have been explicitly told they are ugly or inadequate by their spouses. 


Don't get me wrong. This is not to say that all men are equally complicit or share all of these hateful attitudes. But it does, I think, help to understand why women have internalized them so thoroughly, and why they might be so persistent. And why some men feel as though they are being beaten about the head and shoulders for something they feel they didn't do.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

always_alone said:


> No one is trying to beat you about the head for the sins of other men. If it doesn't apply, it doesn't apply.


Very well then. I will engage a filter henceforth on what you mean here when you use words like "never" and "constantly" and "always" and other statements which taken at face value would seem to be statements of universal fact that really mean something else. 

I can adapt.


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## sandc (Dec 15, 2011)

Don't you mean you can "always" adapt?


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

always_alone said:


> No, I'm not based in the US, but I've seen right here on TAM many a man lamenting that his wife or girlfriend is not attractive enough because she doesn't look like a fitness model or porn star. I've also seen guys calling perfectly gorgeous girls "dogs" because of this or that feature that they don't like.
> 
> One guy I know is super thrilled because his wife looks like Anne Hathaway, so I've seen the comparison the other way too. But, I've encountered many more stories where guys have made it amply clear that they do not think their wives are attractive enough, and will encourage them to undergo surgical "improvements" so they can measure up to the fantasy.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that this is so alien to you. My guess is that it's so normal, you don't even notice, or don't think it remarkable.


Well I've never seen it either. I wouldn't hang out with a guy that bashes his wife's appearance, either to her face or behind her back. Neither has any class. 

Yeah, I've seen guys that notice attractive women. Done it myself. But to bash other women... nope.


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

always_alone said:


> But honestly, these attitudes are not the minority.
> -analyses of rock, country, and rap music have shown that in a majority of cases, women are presented as unintelligent, sex objects or as victims or subservience


Hmm... I love the song "Stupid Girls" by Pink. Have you seen it?


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Very well then. I will engage a filter henceforth on what you mean here when you use words like "never" and "constantly" and "always" and other statements which taken at face value would seem to be statements of universal fact that really mean something else.
> 
> I can adapt.


I will engage a filter as well. I think they call it the ignore button on this site or something like that.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Well I've never seen it either. I wouldn't hang out with a guy that bashes his wife's appearance, either to her face or behind her back. Neither has any class.
> 
> Yeah, I've seen guys that notice attractive women. Done it myself. But to bash other women... nope.


I really thought about this myself, and none of my friends bash either. Thinking about the conversations we have, we really don't talk about women other than our wives and girlfriends, and even then it is always in a positive light.

This all got me thingking about how there seems to be somewhat of a double standard here too. The very first words out of my STBW's mouth the first time we hugged was "Wow, I didn't know you were so skinny. We're going to have to fatten you up." We've certainly moved past that, and I have a better understanding of why she reacted that way now, but it has stuck with me, and I am far more conscious of my physical appearance than I likely would be if she hadn't said that.

Women can say things like that, and it is supposed to be passed off, but can you imagine if I had been the one to say "Wow, I didn't know you were so fat. We're going to have to get you skinnier." ?


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

FrenchFry said:


> I don't think that's a male-female thing, sam. I think that's a fat/skinny familiarity thing. I've gotten that from almost all of my relatives at some point, male and female as well as some of my friends. People in general feel way more comfortable telling skinny people to eat more than telling anyone to eat less.


I think you are going the right direction there, but...I think it is a combination of both. Telling a woman she's skinny is generally not taken in a bad way, and often as a compliment. Telling a guy he's skinny...not generally taken or meant complimentary.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

Cletus said:


> Very well then. I will engage a filter henceforth on what you mean here when you use words like "never" and "constantly" and "always" and other statements which taken at face value would seem to be statements of universal fact that really mean something else.
> 
> I can adapt.


Sigh. I believe I said "many" and "often" and "in my experience". At least I try to avoid over generalizing. 

I suppose I fail at times, and I apologize for that, but I guess it doesn't matter anymore.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> I really thought about this myself, and none of my friends bash either. Thinking about the conversations we have, we really don't talk about women other than our wives and girlfriends, and even then it is always in a positive light.
> 
> This all got me thingking about how there seems to be somewhat of a double standard here too. The very first words out of my STBW's mouth the first time we hugged was "Wow, I didn't know you were so skinny. We're going to have to fatten you up." We've certainly moved past that, and I have a better understanding of why she reacted that way now, but it has stuck with me, and I am far more conscious of my physical appearance than I likely would be if she hadn't said that.
> 
> Women can say things like that, and it is supposed to be passed off, but can you imagine if I had been the one to say "Wow, I didn't know you were so fat. We're going to have to get you skinnier." ?


Weight is always a sensitive topic. I come from a family of bean poles. People that are so skinny that it almost looks unhealthy. I'm not built that way, and my mother and my siblings constantly ride me about it. The funny thing is it actually reflects more on them than it does on me. People look at them like, "why do they pick on him so much?". 

There is definitely a tipping point where people actually look down on the ones passing judgment instead of joining in.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> I think you are going the right direction there, but...I think it is a combination of both. Telling a woman she's skinny is generally not taken in a bad way, and often as a compliment. Telling a guy he's skinny...not generally taken or meant complimentary.


Growing up I was very skinny, I was called stick figure all the time. My older sister was one of the worst offenders. She was very overweight and no one was allowed to bring that up. I always felt the double standard.


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## always_alone (Dec 11, 2012)

larry.gray said:


> Well I've never seen it either. I wouldn't hang out with a guy that bashes his wife's appearance, either to her face or behind her back. Neither has any class.
> 
> Yeah, I've seen guys that notice attractive women. Done it myself. But to bash other women... nope.


No? Really?

Just the other day, I was out with a friend who was telling a story of a large woman wearing leggings that he saw, and how disgusting he found it, and how she shouldn't dress that way. My response? If you don't like the way she looks, don't watch her.

Another day, another friend is commenting on how awful the female celebrities looked on the show we were watching. One was "hideous", another looked "too cold". None of these women were considered attractive, as they all had these fatal flaws.

A friend of mine told me a story of how her bf criticized the way she looked, and told her what she needed to do to pass make herself attractive to him.

Right here on TAM, I read a post from a guy lamenting that none of his gfs were attractive enough to make him happy, another openly wishing his wife would undergo plastic surgery, and two threads from women describing how their spouses treat them as though they are hideous monsters.

Maybe y'all are super sweethearts that never judge women negatively, but if you think it doesn't happen regularly, you're just wrong.

ETA: and honestly, if you want to shut me up because you don't like what I'm saying that's your prerogative. But if you actually want to understand why some women don't want to be naked around their husbands, or have trouble believing that their spouses do in fact find them attractive...

Oh, well, nevermind.


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## U.E. McGill (Nov 27, 2013)

always_alone said:


> No? Really?
> 
> Just the other day, I was out with a friend who was telling a story of a large woman wearing leggings that he saw, and how disgusting he found it, and how she shouldn't dress that way. My response? If you don't like the way she looks, don't watch her.
> 
> ...


I don't want you to shut up. I love discourse and discussion, even if it contrasts my beliefs. Sometimes, it helps me refine mine, sometimes it changes them.

I will say that, as Cletus alludes to, you have a bit of selection bias. You see the patterns you want to see, and highlight them as "Always, most, every" etc. I've seen it in a few other posts.

I personally prefer my women normal. My wife had extremely distended skin from a twin pregnancy. Didn't bother me. Its a battle wound for being the beautiful mom she is. It was also quite erotic, when we made love it would rub up against me, and it was the softest skin I ever felt.

A quick google search reveals that "Fake T!t porn vs Amateur Porn" yielded 17 million vs 22 million hits in favor of the Amateur porn. While not a discussion of porn, it will show you that the market has a demand that men want to see the girls next door doing the deed.

Personally one of the sexiest scenes I've seen recently on TV is the show "Girls". The protaganist engaged in sex with a man after playing topless ping pong. Shes overweight, not my type at all, but you know what? I found it increadibly arrousing because she was being herself, and being incredibly passionate.

Do all men want to see this? No, of course not. I have a friend who loves fake boobed strippers. That's his thing. But some numbers allude to the fact that a majority of men, if not a strong minority want to see every day women too. I don't have exact numbers, so I will say that. I would also add from personal experience, my changes have grown, I find women I would have never thought about before attractive because as 41 year old man, I've grown to appreciate things for what they are and not what they aren't. If my wife and I were not together hypothetically, I would probably date a lot more than I used to, because I can find just about any woman attractive who is being herself. Do I have my limits? Sure, but not that many.

Now how does this get back to the OP's question? 

All our hang ups are habits, and all habits can be undone. I believe that just ignoring it or even accepting this, is akin to reinforcing the behavior. Now can she go cold turkey? Of course not, because there's years of habit to undo. I think any man can make the request for his wife to be nude, it is after all the uniform for act. Accepting it and not getting my needs met would be unacceptable.


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## MaBi123 (Nov 28, 2013)

sandc said:


> Along those lines, have you seen this video? Women describe themselves to a FBI forensic artist and he sketches them based on their description, then he sketches them as how he SEES them. Then the women are shown the two different sketches of them. The differences between their perceptions of themselves and reality is startling.
> 
> Dove Real Beauty Sketches - YouTube


Yes I saw that, but the in the one I saw the woman described herself and then a stranger described her.


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## daSaint (Sep 20, 2013)

Jack I said:


> First off how common is it for a wife to refuse to be naked during sex with her husband?Wife doesn't always like to completely naked during sex.....And where do women's insecurities come from?Why would you still be insecure even with a man that you're married to?


I think a woman's insecurities about her body can come from the way other women perceive her. For example, if a woman walks by a group of people, the men will check her out in admiration (& maybe lust), but the women will check her out in comparison to themselves, criticize her style and subtly accuse her of consciously trying to get men's attention/being overtly seductive. No matter what a man says to his woman who is thus affected, the way she 'thinks' other women perceive her will always be a mental block preventing her from fully appreciating herself.
If she won't be totally naked when having sex with you, try being almost fully clothed yourself while having sex (like doing it through the zipper of your jeans/pants. I guess it can either be a reality check for her, or give you guys another kink/thrill for enjoying sex.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## amanthatcares (Nov 9, 2013)

i had some issues with this myself. it made me feel dejected that my wife was ok with a doctor seeing her naked, but out of the question for me. but we talked about it and luckily worked it out. those were some bad days that we went through over the intimacy issues, but now things are good. communication is key in a marriage. 
this was one of the things that sparked my outrage against the male gyno in the first place. and as someone in the post above said, men are more interested in everyday women than some made up celebrity chick.


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## sh987 (Oct 10, 2013)

All we ever hear about is how all magazine photos/etc are digitally manipulated, and how it sets up an unrealistic example for women to follow. We've all heard about pornstars/singers/models/etc who are a collection of fake boobs, fake nails, fake lashes, hair extensions and makeup applied by trowel. We all know that they don't look they do before all of that. But, who is left that thinks any of that is real? Perhaps I'm overestimating the media literacy of society, but I didn't think there were a lot of people left that trust what they see, and have adjusted their expectations accordingly. Again, I could be wrong, but this seems like those discussions about the most underrated athletes, where a player or two is overwhelmingly mentioned. If THAT many people think he's underrated, then just how underrated could he be? 

Along a similar vein, perhaps it's the company of the men that I spend time around, but I've never heard any of them bashing their wives' looks; quite the opposite, actually. I've heard guys say mean and uncharitable things about women, and I've also heard women say equally mean things about a guy's appearance. Even more, I've heard women be extremely harsh judges of female appearance. 

Are there really THAT many men telling their women "you're ugly because you don't look like that pornstar"? Honest question, because it's a comparison I hear about men making, but have never personally known any men to make. Maybe there's just as many women with Chippendale's calendars up in sight of their husband, who bemoan his lack of looks? I know there's jerks out there and I don't want to give them a free pass, but it gets tossed around like it's really damned common, and I've just never run into very many guys with that attitude.

---

And to be more on-point to the thread title...

With my wife, I find it's more tied to how happy she is in general, especially with how she feels about her relationship with me. When we spend lots of time together, connect, had good communication, etc, she's very open and is completely naked for lovemaking. For a few months, she wasn't feeling that way, and even though we still made 4+ nights per week, she was keeping her shirt on pretty often.


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