# Where to begin...



## Spikes (Jun 2, 2013)

Some background: I have been reading this forum and lurking for the past several years and I have read MMSP. I really don't have a question for you guys. I just need a place to vent and a sounding board. 

Prior to marriage, my wife was the most pleasant woman to be around. I could easily say that my day was even more fulfilling and satisfying with her by my side. Oh my, how things have changed. 

I do have to say that while we were dating, there was a single warning sign. She treated and spoke to her parents like they were worthless pieces of ****. I told myself that maybe this was just due to her parents giving her a poor childhood and let it pass. I mean, she has tons of friends and she treats them pleasantly enough. Never again will I make this mistake.

Fast forward 5 years into our marriage. This happy, pleasant, smart, laid back, loving woman now spews venom at me on a daily basis. Simple criticism given to me in an adult manner does not upset me. But, this is not what I am receiving. What I am getting is literally rage like without an ounce of respect towards me as a fellow human. I would not speak to my enemies the way she speaks to me. Get my drift? It's not just the words and respect, her face contorts and body language also change during these bits of rage. It's not very attractive to say the least. 

What brings on these fits of rage you might ask? I forget to pickup a glass off the table while cleaning, or fold a towel improperly, forget to put a clothing item in a hamper, or politely disagreeing with her opinion. She tries to work on the problem and forces herself to be a nicer person, however she eventually relapses and talks to me like **** in 24-48 hours. Then gets upset when she isn’t rewarded for treating me humanly for the past day. She doesn’t realize that a single outburst takes me weeks to recover from.

I do not deserve this rage. I am in the only income and I am extremely successful and highly paid. I am a loving and caring man who takes care of his family. I was already following MMSP rules prior to reading the book, as these same thought processes I used in the dating world prior to marriage. I work out 4-5 days a week for the past 6 years. I am very fit and keep getting fitter and more attractive each year. Between her fits of rage, my wife unsolicitedly comments on how hot I am. Her physical attraction to me doesn’t get me sex. When I stand up for myself and ask her politely to treat me as you would treat another human, it just causes more disrespect.

We have gone to MC and it doesn’t seem to help…. Work is stressful, home is stressful, where do I go?


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## FLGator (Mar 26, 2013)

To a doctors and then in that order. 
She might be bipolar. You never know. She needs to get an opinion of a professional. That kind of behavior is not normal for any situation. 

Almost on a daily basis? I would think about one day just bucking up, let Her know she either needs to peruse medical help of it is a medical issue or she needs to get a lawyer because you can't live every single day like this. 

Any serious past issues? Big things happen in the relationship that you can think of that brought this on?

Infidelity? Did you ever find out what Her childhood was like? What are Her parents like?


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## Spikes (Jun 2, 2013)

She has been diagnosed with depression, but refuses to treat it. She could be bi-polar. As for our marriage, it's been pretty standard. No infidelity, or any big relationship issues that brought this on.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

So how do you deal with it when she spews venom at you? Do you just duck and cower, do you meekly say "Yes dear, sorry dear, I'll load the dishwasher correctly next time dear" etc?



> When I stand up for myself and ask her politely to treat me as you would treat another human, it just causes more disrespect.


Umm, that's not standing up for yourself, that is just pleading.

MMSLP principles aren't just about physical attraction. Right now you are supplicating and enabling her bat-sh!t crazy attitude. Also post your problems on their forum, too if you'd like.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

The MAP is fine, but not for this issue. We used "Love Busters" for our anger and resentment issues, but this is over the top. 

I second FLGator. She needs doctor, a psychiatrist for the anger, not MC.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Welcome officially to TAM. What made you go from reading to posting? How long has the behavior been going on?

MC -- At any point, did you address His Needs Her Needs or do any exercises regarding defining "roles" in your household? Did MC suggest your wife seek any help for this?

I will say that I am a practical \ logical person, and I tend to try and solve problems in that way.

Have you ever looked at the Marriage Builders website?
Check out "Annoying Habits". It may give you some insight.

Firstly, I will say that it is easy to dismiss one's anger over a towel or a glass. Which then becomes resentment in your partner for dismissing it. It's silly to you, but hurtful to your partner when you do things that are "annoying" and dismiss it. 

Why?
If you are the only income, then she is at home. I will assume it's her job to keep the household up? It shouldn't be viewed as any less important than your job, in fact it's more important because it directly affects you. 

She doesn't tell you how to do your job, and you shouldn't tell her how to do her job. There should be mutual respect and appreciation. 

Secondly, Expectations.
This is a big misunderstanding between couples. What you expect from her, and what she expects from you. Mismatched expectations results in great conflict and resentment. 

That's all I am willing to reply about, as not enough details are given.
But I would like to comment (respectfully) --- What you have written is how YOU see it. It is your side of the story. It is a truth in life that how you see yourself isn't the same way others see you. Life is about reaction, and that is what you own. Not much more. 

It is a truth in life that not many people suddenly develop severe mental illnesses after being married for 5 years. It is a learned behavior, and a reaction to the situation they are in. Most of the time.

Go back to MC.


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## thatbpguy (Dec 24, 2012)

Spikes said:


> She has been diagnosed with depression, but refuses to treat it. She could be bi-polar. As for our marriage, it's been pretty standard. No infidelity, or any big relationship issues that brought this on.


I have known 2 women like this is my life. Wonderful women who turned real ugly and stayed there.

Aside from depression I think they have mental or emotional issues with anger. I suggest seeking out an anger management specialist.


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## Spikes (Jun 2, 2013)

deejov said:


> Welcome officially to TAM. What made you go from reading to posting? How long has the behavior been going on?


We've been married 5 years. Been going on for the past four years.



> MC -- At any point, did you address His Needs Her Needs or do any exercises regarding defining "roles" in your household? Did MC suggest your wife seek any help for this?


I like our marriage councilor. However, I think she may be out of her league a little on this one. I've done all her recommended steps, however her recommended steps to my wife has been to simply "try harder" to not lash out at others.



> Have you ever looked at the Marriage Builders website?
> Check out "Annoying Habits". It may give you some insight.


Thanks will check it out.



> She doesn't tell you how to do your job, and you shouldn't tell her how to do her job..


I don't tell her how to do her job, I simply ask her to speak to me as an adult and with respect.



> There should be mutual respect and appreciation


I agree! I wish I could get some respect.



> It is a truth in life that not many people suddenly develop severe mental illnesses after being married for 5 years. It is a learned behavior, and a reaction to the situation they are in. Most of the time.
> 
> Go back to MC.


I agree. This is why I should have used the way she spoke to her parents as a warning sign while we were dating. I dont think what I am seeing is the result of 5 years of marriage. It's something that likely happened prior to her meeting me. We dated for 6 months before I met her parents. During those 6 months she was fun loving and treated me as an equal. But, when I met her parents that first time.. I was like, WOAH. I can't believe she would speak to anyone like that! Every time she said something to her parents, it was full of hate. I even commented to her in another room asking what was going on, and she played stupid. Then we left her parents house and she returned back to her fun loving self. We dated for 18 months before marriage, and she never once spoke to me like she speaks to her parents. Now 5 years later she is speaking to me the way she speaks to her parents. I dont know why I am surprised.

I am not a perfect man. However, I am a good man. I could make a woman very happy and she could do the same to me. I have told her I would leave if it continues, and have left several times. But, I keep returning since we have a little boy together and she can really convince me that she is normal for short periods of time.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

_
We've been married 5 years. Been going on for the past four years._

But you also say this behavior just "suddenly" started? Would it be safe to say there has been problems, maybe for the past four years?
Do you have kids? What is your marriage like in the bedroom as opposed to outside the bedroom?

The thing about respect.
You work , pay the bills. You deserve some respect for that.
She deserves some respect too.
- Don't leave your dirty dishes lying around for her to pick up, or assume that it's no big deal.
-Don't assume she is your maid, housekeeper, or other.
She is your wife.
You both deserve respect for the roles you play in life.

What does respecting your wife mean?
-Do you take her out on dates?
-Do you make an effort to spend quality time together, 15 hrs a week?
-Do you show emotional support when she needs it?
-Are you doing anything to help her with the depression?
- Are you going to counselling yourself?
-Do you know what her needs are, and how to meet them?
-Are you the leader in the house, or a quiet guy that doesn't say much?


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

I just noticed you said you have left several times, and you have a little boy.

What, exactly, do you need her to do?
"Be nice to you at all times" is what I read.
You leave, but you come back.

Boundaries. If someone is treating you badly, you either enjoy it or just don't have the self confidence to be on your own.

Neither of those things are HER problem. They are yours.


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Spikes said:


> But, when I met her parents that first time.. I was like, WOAH. I can't believe she would speak to anyone like that! Every time she said something to her parents, it was full of hate. I even commented to her in another room asking what was going on, and she played stupid.


Oh dear.

Denial through "playing dumb" is even worse than the lashing out. This means you have an uncooperative dirty fighter on your hands.

When you say "never again", meaning overlooking red flags, this is one that is much worse than a person who lashes out, but then says "oh yes you are right I lost my temper there..."

Which brings us to this:



> I like our marriage councilor. However, I think she may be out of her league a little on this one. I've done all her recommended steps, however her recommended steps to my wife has been to simply "try harder" to not lash out at others.


Your wife has the marriage counselor fooled. 

You can't know exactly what is going on with your wife because she is deceptive. She isn't going to lash out viciously in front of the marriage counselor. The ideal play before the marriage counselor is to say that sure, I over-react a little bit but my husband is doing things that really set me off...

It's perfect because then the counselor gets to blame you for instigating, so you have a list of things to work on for improving the marriage whereas all she has to do is not scream at you when you screw up. It does not address whatever is going on inside of her.

My wife didn't scream at me, quite the contrary, she was a savagely malicious dirty fighter but kept this soft-spoken mask on while ripping my guts out and eating them in front of me.

As I was leaving her for good after seven years of hell on earth, she lets slip a little "by the way"... By the way my father was raping me every night after his favorite television show and the rest of the family knew what he was doing, including my mother, when he came into my room. My mother came in the kitchen once while he had his fingers up my vagina, and my mother just turned around and walked out without saying a word. 

It was at the same time an incredible shock but the explanation I had been begging her to give me for seven years. I knew something horrible was wrong inside of her but like your wife she played dumb and pretended not to even understand there was anything to be concerned about regarding her behavior towards me. Whenever we met with her family I always felt odd, like something was going on underneath the surface but I couldn't tell what. Trivial conversations were going on but something was just off, and I couldn't put my finger on it. Everyone but me knew that all three daughters had been molested for around a decade and then he went on to coach little girls' sports and church programs. The first thing I did was call the sheriff, and the family went berzerk on me. I say this to point out that you never know how sick things are when people are so deceptive with you. But you know something is wrong, just as you see in her. 

This rage towards the parents is absolutely the key to understanding her. Who knows what is going on but she is not being honest about it and that is something you can't overcome. She has to want to. It sounds like she refuses, and that means you have to be prepared to walk away for good.


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## sparkyjim (Sep 22, 2012)

I don't want to over simplify things.... but....

she is rude to the people that she is closest with? Her parents...you...does she lash out at your son?

I just think these are her true colors. I'm sorry if that hurts. I think this is who she is and she might not ever change.

You deserve better...


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## Spikes (Jun 2, 2013)

Wiserforit said:


> Oh dear.
> Denial through "playing dumb" is even worse than the lashing out. This means you have an uncooperative dirty fighter on your hands.


When she lashes out and everyone gets upset, she acts like everyone is really crazy for thinking she is mad. She is constantly asking, "Why is everyone upset at me?" I dunno, maybe it's because you lash out at them on a daily basis? 



> Your wife has the marriage counselor fooled.
> 
> You can't know exactly what is going on with your wife because she is deceptive. She isn't going to lash out viciously in front of the marriage counselor. The ideal play before the marriage counselor is to say that sure, I over-react a little bit but my husband is doing things that really set me off...
> 
> It's perfect because then the counselor gets to blame you for instigating, so you have a list of things to work on for improving the marriage whereas all she has to do is not scream at you when you screw up. It does not address whatever is going on inside of her.


YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. She is perfectly pleasant and nice to everyone she meets. This includes the MC. She tells the MC that I am not emotionally involved in our conversations. I dunno, could this be due to the fact that I am walking on egg shells trying to keep from the next verbal lashing? Could it be that I have nothing to say to someone that negative and hateful? So, instead of focusing on the problem, I am told to become more emotionally involved in conversations. I didn't start removing myself from conversations until I was treated with continuous hate. Let me tell you what, I would talk her head off if she was the type of person I want to be in my life. I am a positive, warm, friendly person and want to surround myself with like minded people.

At the MC the way she treats others takes second stage to my conversational engagement. I do believe that this issue is larger than me, and that she needs to speak to everyone with respect, not just myself. If she respects everyone than I have a higher chance of getting some of that too.



> This rage towards the parents is absolutely the key to understanding her. Who knows what is going on but she is not being honest about it and that is something you can't overcome. She has to want to. It sounds like she refuses, and that means you have to be prepared to walk away for good.


I agree there is more to this than I know.


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## Spikes (Jun 2, 2013)

sparkyjim said:


> I don't want to over simplify things.... but....
> 
> she is rude to the people that she is closest with? Her parents...you...does she lash out at your son?
> 
> ...


Yes, she only lashes out at people she loves. This is something I have figured out over the past couple years.


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## Spikes (Jun 2, 2013)

deejov said:


> _
> 
> The thing about respect.
> You work , pay the bills. You deserve some respect for that.
> ...


_

I only want the same amount of respect you give another human being. How much respect would you give someone you just met at Starbucks? How much respect would give your server at TGI Fridays? I am not asking for more respect than that.

Once I can get to the level of being respected as a person, I will then begin to worry about being respected as a man and husband. But, we aren't there yet._


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Spikes,
Is it true you are not emotionally involved? You've tuned out?

OP, she is not the girl at TGIF's. She is your wife. Or she used to be. 

So how do you get your wife to respect you?

So far you have tried:
-Leaving several times
-Refusing to have meaningful conversations with her

OP, you FIRED her as a spouse. She doesn't have to give respect as a husband. You are room-mates. So your expectations should match that criteria.

If you are done... why should she carry the burden of taking the blame for the relationship? 

Do you want to be married? Why do you stay? What's in it for you?


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## Wiserforit (Dec 27, 2012)

Spikes said:


> When she lashes out and everyone gets upset, she acts like everyone is really crazy for thinking she is mad. She is constantly asking, "Why is everyone upset at me?" I dunno, maybe it's because you lash out at them on a daily basis?


Exactly. This is a cunning and cruel manipulator that has many years of experience under her belt.

She is not going to respond to reason. The only thing that will reach her, if anything, is consequences. 





> YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD. She is perfectly pleasant and nice to everyone she meets. This includes the MC. She tells the MC that I am not emotionally involved in our conversations. I dunno, could this be due to the fact that I am walking on egg shells trying to keep from the next verbal lashing? Could it be that I have nothing to say to someone that negative and hateful? So, instead of focusing on the problem, I am told to become more emotionally involved in conversations. I didn't start removing myself from conversations until I was treated with continuous hate. Let me tell you what, I would talk her head off if she was the type of person I want to be in my life. I am a positive, warm, friendly person and want to surround myself with like minded people.


I know exactly what you are going through. The fundamental unfairness of what she is doing is actually a big bonus to the malicious manipulator. It's called "duper's delight". To turn the marriage counselor into a tool is affirmation of how smart she is.

Ask yourself this simple question: if she wants me to be happy, then why am I always so miserable? Answer: she wants you to be miserable. This is the demonstration of how much power she has over you. 

Normal people do not think this way and it is impossible for them to believe that anyone else could operate this way. But you have a disordered mind on your hands, not a normal person. It's cunning and non-cooperative - and probably worse underneath than you can imagine. 



> If she respects everyone than I have a higher chance of getting some of that too...
> 
> I agree there is more to this than I know.


Whatever it is, I guarantee it is extremely ugly. Worse than you can imagine. It originated in her childhood and she has been concealing it her entire life.

It is cunning so it knows to hide itself when courting you or when interacting with other people it does not have a lock on like marriage or parenthood. 

These kinds of people can be the most glib and charming individual in the room. They can disarm people with a variety of tactics and that is why they are so effective at manipulation. 

You will find that with others they have been working on a "story line" for years that puts you in a bad position, and the story will be shaded according to the individual in question.

I lost friends who had been lied to for so long that it was impossible for me to correct what they had been told for so many years. 

Well, if it makes you feel any better (!) - it is worse than you think.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Wiserforit,
It's quite easy to put our own personal perspectives out here on the board. 

I'm not certain I really get where your last post is coming from?
How do you ascertain that a checked out husband is living with a woman with childhood trauma from ..... 5 posts?


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