# Name Calling-The C Word



## 2ndtimearound

I think I need some advice. I just joined this forum and have been reading through similar situations. I am a 39 yr old woman on my second marriage. My husband is 41. I have been married 3.5 years and my husband and I have been together a total of 5.5 years. We had been friends about 2 yrs prior to dating having met at our previous place of employment. I have a 17 year old son from my first marriage.

I need some perspective. My husband was always the quiet type and considered a truly nice guy by myself and our co-workers. He is a romantic at heart, moreso than me, and used to be easy going. We have been going through tight financial times, like most people, but luckily we are both still working and making do. Anyway, we argue quite a bit. In fact, I have learned to bite my tongue (not an easy task) or not complain as much or let things go so he doesn't get so angry. But I still bring things up probably more than I should. We argued very rarely in the past and his temper never flared so much as it does now. We had another argument this morning during which he called me the "c" word. He didn't say that I was acting like one but "...you little "c".." Then I wanted him out of the room we were in and he said "why? so you can go cry again?" Even reading this as I type I can't believe this is something he would say to me. I think it may have been because I downplayed how hard he works at his job which was wrong. We have other issues in our marriage having to do with our sex life on his end, and I think my complaints during that time and his reaction back then led us to a shaky spot in our marriage. Add being busy and high pressure at his job and I guess my complaints and he just loses his temper. Anyway, after he said that he kept talking and talking and getting in my face. Once he stopped talking I slapped him across his face and told him not to ever call me that name again unless he wanted a divorce. He took his wedding ring off and threw it on the floor and walked out. He is now in the living room watching t.v. and not saying a word. This is his usual behavior after a fight. It's like he checks out until I go up to him and then we sorta act civil. But I want nothing to do with him. I feel bad for slapping him but not as bad as I felt when he called me that name. He tells me how much he loves me and how beautiful I am when we are fine but how can you love someone and call them that name? He's called me a "b***h" before which I can handle but this is just um...i don't know...just strange. Like I am having a hard time processing it. I really don't have anyone I can talk to so I thought I would post here. I feel a bit overwhelmed and numb at the same time. Thank you for any advice.


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## lime

I'm so sorry to hear this! My SO and I fight a lot, and he's called me names but never that. I would feel just as hurt, and I would probably slap him too--even though I think hitting should be off limits in a relationship, man or woman.

I would give him some time to cool off first before speaking to him. I think you need to do 2 things: 1. Apologize for hitting him, and 2. Tell him (as calmly as possible) that calling you that is absolutely unacceptable. You need to try and stay calm and don't let the situation escalate again. 

I'm not sure what advice to offer other than that--my SO has problems apologizing for things he's done, so if your husband is the same way, then it could be really tough to make him see why that's unacceptable. If he doesn't apologize, then you should probably turn down the thermostat so to speak--be out of the house more, don't act openly warm towards him, etc. (but don't reject him if he starts being nice either)


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## greenpearl

Men hate it when you bring up their failure. 

If you don't want him to become angry, better bury the past and never mention it again.


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## AFW8

My husband has called me the "B" more than a few times. I've told him that I will absolutley not be talked to in that way. He's calmed down on the name calling alot, but today we had a pretty bad argument and it came out. I don't think they realize how much it really hurts us, using those awful names. I mean a stranger calling me a "B" is one thing, but my husband, the man who who say he loves me. I'm also in a rut on what to do sometimes


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## greenpearl

AFW8 said:


> My husband has called me the "B" more than a few times. I've told him that I will absolutley not be talked to in that way. He's calmed down on the name calling alot, but today we had a pretty bad argument and it came out. I don't think they realize how much it really hurts us, using those awful names. I mean a stranger calling me a "B" is one thing, but my husband, the man who who say he loves me. I'm also in a rut on what to do sometimes


Tell him that you don't call names when you guys fight! 

Ask him what he feels if you called him a loser!


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## okeydokie

greenpearl said:


> Men hate it when you bring up their failure.
> 
> If you don't want him to become angry, better bury the past and never mention it again.


with all due respest pearl, nobody likes to be reminded of their failures, and in all honesty, i didnt see where she said he was a failure. it also sounds like she complains alot by her own admission, and nobody likes a complainer either.

calling anyone names is harsh and immature. saying a woman is acting like a B***h or a man is acting like an a*****e is one thing, labeling them as such (you are a "blank") is different and not at all constructive. alot of folks just cannot argue constructively and must resort to bullying, probably more of a male trait but women do it too.


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## AFW8

gp, I've tried telling him that I don't call him names yet sometimes when he keeps going and going I do start calling him names back. I know thats not right but I just get so frustrated. He has gotten alot better but yesterday was just a reminder of how far we've came in how to handle our arguments. I just gave him his space and by the evening everything was okay.


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## greenpearl

AFW8 said:


> gp, I've tried telling him that I don't call him names yet sometimes when he keeps going and going I do start calling him names back. I know thats not right but I just get so frustrated. He has gotten alot better but yesterday was just a reminder of how far we've came in how to handle our arguments. I just gave him his space and by the evening everything was okay.


It is a good thing that he is trying to control himself! 

Sometimes we don't change overnight, so we make the same mistake again. But as you noticed, he is making the mistake less and less. It is a good sign. 

No men can insult me by calling me names. I had one man who called me names, and a week later he couldn't find me again no matter how hard he tried, I didn't say anything after he called me names, as soon as he did that, I felt disgusted by that man. I wasn't married to that man, so it was easy for me to run away.


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## greenpearl

okeydokie said:


> with all due respest pearl, nobody likes to be reminded of their failures, and in all honesty, i didnt see where she said he was a failure. it also sounds like she complains alot by her own admission, and nobody likes a complainer either.
> 
> calling anyone names is harsh and immature. saying a woman is acting like a B***h or a man is acting like an a*****e is one thing, labeling them as such (you are a "blank") is different and not at all constructive. alot of folks just cannot argue constructively and must resort to bullying, probably more of a male trait but women do it too.


I sensed it wrong maybe!  

For men, nagging is a deal breaker. No men like women who complain and nag a lot. Just like no women like angry or abusive men. 

Men like to go home when the home is sweet and relaxing. Men don't like to be around unhappy wives. The more you nag and complain, the farther he wants to run away.


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## Jellybeans

Ther eare a lot of red flags here: his temper that goess off, you walking on eggshells/biting your tongue so as not to upset him, him calling you the reprehensible C word, you smacking him on the face, him throwing his ring off, you being the only one to apologize after aguments and him stonewalling you.

If this isn't nipped in the bud soon, I imagine your entire marriage will be this way.


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## magnoliagal

You are both so stressed with the financial strain and instead of coming together as a team you are tearing each other apart. You are taking your money frustrations out on each other. Somebody has to change this dynamic and quick before it ruins your marriage.


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## credamdóchasgra

2ndtimearound said:


> Anyway, we argue quite a bit. In fact, I have learned to bite my tongue (not an easy task) or not complain as much or let things go so he doesn't get so angry. But I still bring things up probably more than I should. We argued very rarely in the past and his temper never flared so much as it does now. We had another argument this morning during which he called me the "c" word. He didn't say that I was acting like one but "...you little "c".." Then I wanted him out of the room we were in and he said "why? so you can go cry again?" Even reading this as I type I can't believe this is something he would say to me. I think it may have been because I downplayed how hard he works at his job which was wrong. We have other issues in our marriage having to do with our sex life on his end, and I think my complaints during that time and his reaction back then led us to a shaky spot in our marriage. Add being busy and high pressure at his job and I guess my complaints and he just loses his temper. Anyway, after he said that he kept talking and talking and getting in my face. Once he stopped talking I slapped him across his face and told him not to ever call me that name again unless he wanted a divorce. He took his wedding ring off and threw it on the floor and walked out. He is now in the living room watching t.v. and not saying a word. This is his usual behavior after a fight. It's like he checks out until I go up to him and then we sorta act civil. But I want nothing to do with him. I feel bad for slapping him but not as bad as I felt when he called me that name. He tells me how much he loves me and how beautiful I am when we are fine but how can you love someone and call them that name? He's called me a "b***h" before which I can handle but this is just um...i don't know...just strange.


I am sorry you're going through this, and I can relate.
My husband also can be extremely insensitive and mean when we argue, and it hurts and sucks.

You're stuck in a vicious fighting cycle, and you're reflecting on what in the past and present might be contributing to it--i.e., why HE might be holding onto anger toward you. 

I do the same thing..."maybe he resents that I did this or that..."
That insight is useful, BUT on its own it doesn't stop this cycle or lead to more peace and respect.

My advice--and I'm trying to do exactly this in my own marriage--is to do whatever YOU can to stop this cycle.

Do ANYTHING you can to resist engaging when he loses his temper.
The second you join the fight, the chances at productive solutions are lost.

Some of the best advice I've gotten here on TAM is "don't own his reactions." I didn't get it at first, but I'm starting to.
The moment YOU react, you show him that whatever he says or does is justifiable because YOUR complaints brought it on. You take ownership of it.

Own YOUR part and no more.
"I'm sorry I slapped you"--if you do feel bad about it. But stop there. HE needs to figure out if he's sorry he called you a "c u next tuesday" on his own.
Once you own your part, you can detach from the issue with a sense of freedom and self-respect. The rest is on him. 

He resents your complaints? Ok. He's entitled to that feeling.
He resents the past re: your sex life? Ok. He's entitled to that feeling.

When he can figure out how to either accept those two things, or talk to you about his feelings about them, great.
Until then, you won't allow him to turn those resentments into venom that he can spit at you because you "pushed his buttons."

I advise you make a conscious decision to stop doing the negative behaviors he expects from you--complaining, nagging, arguing, whatever it is YOU do that contribute to the fighting.

STOP playing in the mud with him. If he wants to play, he can play by himself.

Like I said, I'm crawling out of the mud pit myself.

Keep posting, I wish you the best!


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## 2ndtimearound

Thank you all so much for the advice and your opinions. You are right. Nobody likes a complainer. I am trying to get better, pick and choose my battles, but I do have a ways to go. I need to try harder. 

We didn't talk much at all yesterday. He did come to the dinner table and eat dinner...well he ate only the leftover from previous night. Nothing that I cooked. Basically he sat on the couch all yesterday watching t.v. while I went about with the laundry and cooking and just doing the Sunday stuff to get ready for the upcoming week. We finally talked about 7:30 pm when I went to the living room to see if I could change the channel to watch CNN. Small talk here and there and then finally I went to bed around 10pm alone. Significant I guess because he always will go to bed when I go. Just his thing. He did come to bed about an hour later. This morning small talk once again and then he came out to ask where I put his wedding ring. He put it back on before leaving for work. I still have mine off. I haven't brought up anything that happened yesterday and have been polite when talking with him. 

I don't really know if I can apologize for slapping him. I feel bad for doing it, but at the same time I think he deserved it. I don't want to say it even if I am just a small part in doubt. I think the insincerity would come across and just make it worse. 

I know being an adult in a marriage requires people to do things that are not easy or that they don't feel like doing, but sometimes I feel I have no reserve to pull from. It's like running a marathon and you keep telling yourself "only 1 more mile to go" to trick yourself for that extra wind but deep down knowing you have 20 more miles to go. I don't even know if that made any sense. Anyway thank you all again so very much for taking the time for a stranger. It means alot.


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## credamdóchasgra

2ndtimearound said:


> Thank you all so much for the advice and your opinions. You are right. Nobody likes a complainer. I am trying to get better, pick and choose my battles, but I do have a ways to go. I need to try harder.
> 
> We didn't talk much at all yesterday. He did come to the dinner table and eat dinner...well he ate only the leftover from previous night. Nothing that I cooked. Basically he sat on the couch all yesterday watching t.v. while I went about with the laundry and cooking and just doing the Sunday stuff to get ready for the upcoming week. We finally talked about 7:30 pm when I went to the living room to see if I could change the channel to watch CNN. Small talk here and there and then finally I went to bed around 10pm alone. Significant I guess because he always will go to bed when I go. Just his thing. He did come to bed about an hour later. This morning small talk once again and then he came out to ask where I put his wedding ring. He put it back on before leaving for work. I still have mine off. I haven't brought up anything that happened yesterday and have been polite when talking with him.
> 
> I don't really know if I can apologize for slapping him. I feel bad for doing it, but at the same time I think he deserved it. I don't want to say it even if I am just a small part in doubt. I think the insincerity would come across and just make it worse.
> 
> I know being an adult in a marriage requires people to do things that are not easy or that they don't feel like doing, but sometimes I feel I have no reserve to pull from. It's like running a marathon and you keep telling yourself "only 1 more mile to go" to trick yourself for that extra wind but deep down knowing you have 20 more miles to go. I don't even know if that made any sense. Anyway thank you all again so very much for taking the time for a stranger. It means alot.


I could have written this post. This scene sounds SO familiar and SO similar to my marriage lately.

I knew I needed to take responsibility for changing our dynamic, and I am doing my level best.

I understand your "one more mile to go" analogy, and feel like I'm "trudging along, day by day." 

You may have 20 more miles, but every GOOD mile you cover makes the next ones easier and smoother.

One thing I've had to do is get past the idea that "he deserves it"--whether it's slapping him or screaming right back at him. 
If you as a human being of dignity don't deserve to be called a C (and you don't), then he as a human being doesn't "deserve" to be slapped.

Tough pill to swallow when HE HURT YOU. I know. I have been there--sometimes I am STILL there.
BUT...you CAN choose to get out of a vengeful mind-frame. 
It takes work, consciousness, and vigilance.

Here's my personal "rule" on apologizing to my husband:

I'll apologize if I genuinely believe what I did was unproductive, unhealthy, or contributes to our conflict.
--even if he was acting like an a** just before I reacted with said unhealthy behavior.
I WON'T apologize if I believe what I did is a respectful and healthy response to HIS crappy behavior--even if that response pisses him off. 

Example:
A few weeks ago, my H stormed out of a family dinner. My response was to pull back and withdraw over the next several days.
It pissed him off. But I felt right in my response to him. 
So no apology.

On the OTHER hand, a few days later I was being a little harpy and annoying. He had a temper tantrum.
I DID apologize for being harpy, BUT it still does NOT justify his temper tantrum.

Know what I mean?

"Because he deserved it" isn't a good reason to NOT take ownership of your own actions.
BUT..."Because it pissed him off" also isn't a good reason TO apologize.
Hope that makes sense.

It's an uphill climb to the high road.

Decide for yourself what is ok, appropriate, and helpful, and hold yourself to that standard. Hopefully over time, he'll want to join you there.


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## credamdóchasgra

BTW, I'm not wholeheartedly recommending that you DO apologize and open up a can of worms all over again.

I was just saying that it might give you a sense of freedom from this most recent disaster. If you feel you did something wrong, REGARDLESS of what he did or didn't do.

BUT...there is also the risk that once you "give in" like that, you hope for the same from him. That's no fun, if he won't deliver.

In the bigger picture, though, I think you would benefit from a period of time without bringing up issues to discuss.

God knows there are a few BIG things on my mind that I know I'll need to discuss with my husband. 
But things are so volatile right now, and he is so closed to communication, that I just need to be patient.
Maybe you need to do the same.

Check out some of my recent threads. Our situations sound similar, and hopefully what I'm trying to do may help you too.


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## bunnybear

I would be so angry at my hubby too if called me a c too. Even the b word is not acceptable to me. I think he should apologize first.


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## credamdóchasgra

bunnybear said:


> I would be so angry at my hubby too if called me a c too. Even the b word is not acceptable to me. I think he should apologize first.


Of course he should. But from the sounds of it, he probably won't.

With a cycle like this, it's more important to focus on changing the underlying issues for the future, rather than dwell on and revisit the particular argument(s).
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ndtimearound

He hardly ever apologizes first. He will apologize if I do it first, but it really doesn't hold much meaning for me. I figure if he meant it, he would say it.

One thing I've had to do is get past the idea that "he deserves it"--whether it's slapping him or screaming right back at him.
If you as a human being of dignity don't deserve to be called a C (and you don't), then he as a human being doesn't "deserve" to be slapped.

I understand what you are saying, but I truly feel he deserved the slap. I feel bad for doing it, but I guess I just need a bit more time to pass. It's hard to keep in mind my mantra..."I don't have control over other people, only my actions and REactions to them." I am a work in progress I guess.


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## 2ndtimearound

He hardly ever apologizes first. He will apologize if I do it first, but it really doesn't hold much meaning for me. I figure if he meant it, he would say it.

One thing I've had to do is get past the idea that "he deserves it"--whether it's slapping him or screaming right back at him.
If you as a human being of dignity don't deserve to be called a C (and you don't), then he as a human being doesn't "deserve" to be slapped.

I understand what you are saying, but I truly feel he deserved the slap. I feel bad for doing it, but I guess I just need a bit more time to pass. It's hard to keep in mind my mantra..."I don't have control over other people, only my actions and REactions to them." I am a work in progress I guess.


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## credamdóchasgra

2ndtimearound said:


> He hardly ever apologizes first. He will apologize if I do it first, but it really doesn't hold much meaning for me. I figure if he meant it, he would say it.
> 
> One thing I've had to do is get past the idea that "he deserves it"--whether it's slapping him or screaming right back at him.
> If you as a human being of dignity don't deserve to be called a C (and you don't), then he as a human being doesn't "deserve" to be slapped.
> 
> I understand what you are saying, but I truly feel he deserved the slap. I feel bad for doing it, but I guess I just need a bit more time to pass. It's hard to keep in mind my mantra..."I don't have control over other people, only my actions and REactions to them." I am a work in progress I guess.


We all are.

Believe me, I understand.
Right now i'm battling the feeling that my husband "deserves" to see me walk out the door!
He "deserved" that time I decked him in the shoulder when he was being mean to me the *day after I had surgery.* I feel you.
And you're absolutely right that as time passes after an explosion, it gets better. 

But what I've found is that when I handle his immaturity WOTHOUT reacting in kind, I feel SO much better.
And how I feel about ME is becoming gradually more important than how I feel about what HE has done.
That is key.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra

Um...*wIthout.* come on, auto correct.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## sisters359

You apologize because no matter whether he "deserved" it or not, YOU hold yourself to a higher standard that does not include hitting other people. You hit him b/c of how you felt, not what he did--if a stranger said it, you'd react differently. Own your OWN feelings and actions first. If your mantra is sinking in, you already know you cannot control his.

If things have escalated to physical violence, you should probably think professional help. He may lash out if you strike him again. There is a lot of stress right now in your relationship, but only because you allow it to be. My ex and I went through incredibly stressful times with a dangerously ill child and despite what was wrong in our relationship, we would never have thought to treat each other as you describe. I'm not bragging--I'm pointing out that your situation is escalating, you are blaming him and the situation (and he's blaming you), and getting an outsider to help you would probably be really good for you both. And if he says "we can't afford a counselor," tell him you cannot afford divorce, either. Good luck.


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## Sennik

2ndtimearound said:


> I don't really know if I can apologize for slapping him. I feel bad for doing it, but at the same time I think he deserved it.



You asked for perspective..... 

Let me preface this by saying that I am NOT taking sides here, you both are ere emotionally and verbally abusing each other for sure. You obviously are looking to improve yourself as you are posting here. These two sentences however stuck out to me. 

That is a dangerous thought process you have going on there...

Nobody 'deserves' to be physically assaulted by their spouse... unless they themselves are physically defending themselves from a physical assault, regardless of gender....EVER. In every state I am aware of that would be considered assault and battery. 

Remember, only you can control your reactions and it still sounds like you have a lot of work to do.

If you two aren't already signed up for counseling I hope you do pronto. 

I wish you both well.


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## Sennik

sisters359 said:


> You apologize because no matter whether he "deserved" it or not, YOU hold yourself to a higher standard that does not include hitting other people. You hit him b/c of how you felt, not what he did--if a stranger said it, you'd react differently. Own your OWN feelings and actions first. If your mantra is sinking in, you already know you cannot control his.
> 
> If things have escalated to physical violence, you should probably think professional help. He may lash out if you strike him again. There is a lot of stress right now in your relationship, but only because you allow it to be. My ex and I went through incredibly stressful times with a dangerously ill child and despite what was wrong in our relationship, we would never have thought to treat each other as you describe. I'm not bragging--I'm pointing out that your situation is escalating, you are blaming him and the situation (and he's blaming you), and getting an outsider to help you would probably be really good for you both. And if he says "we can't afford a counselor," tell him you cannot afford divorce, either. Good luck.


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

Were you reading my mind there sisters? 

Started typing, got distracted by work, came back and saw your post was close to mine but you beat me to the punch, so to speak.

Escalation from verbal to physical violence is not an answer.


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## 2ndtimearound

To Sisters359-You are right. If a stranger called me that word they would have gotten a fist right across their mouth, not a slap.

This is not the first time our arguments have gotten physical by either side. Like I said previously, if I learn to lay low and just keep quiet things will be fine. I know this because I have seen it work. Just sometimes things just get to a boiling point with me and I can't keep my mouth shut and then, since he doesn't want to hear any negative, an argument ensues.

Like I said, I am working on it. Scarily enough, I have gotten better.


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## madimoff

To OP: I too sympathise, I know just how gutwrenching and cry-inducing it is not only to hear the word uttered out loud AT you, but also by someone who (quite possibly within the previous day or whatever) says they love you. 

As to apologising, I can also relate to how difficult that can be if you are any kind of over-thinker which I plainly am. I don like apologising for things if I don't totally 100% believe I'm sorry...... or at least that was my stance until I started really listening to the folk on TAM. It's still not natural to me but I understand the significance of being seen to make the first move, and also putting yourself in your partner's shoes from time to time. 

Creda: I just wish I could put things as succinctly as you - as I've said before there are times we seem to be living a remarkably similar life BUT now I'm seeing that some of those very traits I hate in my OH are also there in me, it's just that I hadn't woken up to it


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## Halien

It really is hard to answer here. Both of you are at risk of getting caught up in very destructive behaviors, in my opinion, and need counseling. 

1st off, I know how it feels to be married to someone with poor control over their words. Sometimes, my wife, who is bipolar, can say things that are incredibly hurtful. She doesn't use profanity, but her words are very final, like "I can never love you again." Later, she'll pretend like they never happened. Now, she has committed to therapy. 

That said, if she ever slapped me, regardless of the reason, it would be over. I've never touched her in anger. To think that a person who normally uses their hands in a loving, reassuring gestures could suddenly use them to slap me would be as close to unforgivable as they come. But this is just me. I rationalize it because I struggled with dyslexia as a kid, and my mother would get so frustrated with me that she often slapped me when I couldn't spell a simple word. One day, at six, after still reeling over the hurt, my grammer teacher suspected the abuse and had me tested. The tests showed dyslexia, plus an IQ of 165. 

What I'm trying to get at, and probably poorly, is that both acts can be considered inexcusable, depending on your background. Why couldn't you tell him the first time that such words will never be tolerated again? When you start packing your bags the next time he calls you the name, I'm pretty sure it would've been fixed then and there.


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## credamdóchasgra

madimoff said:


> Creda: I just wish I could put things as succinctly as you - as I've said before there are times we seem to be living a remarkably similar life BUT now I'm seeing that some of those very traits I hate in my OH are also there in me, it's just that I hadn't woken up to it


I think that is a liberating discovery. It allows you to see things from his side and do something productive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2ndtimearound

First off- Sorry for the double posts above. I got edit happy.

Halien- I think it would be hypocritical of him to say "it's over" because I slapped him for calling me a c*** when he has been physical with me before. No punching or hitting, but pushing and bullying by getting in my face and um like chest bumping me backing me up etc. I too have pushed him off of me when he is inches from my face. However, with your background with your mom, I can see how it could be a deal breaker for you. 

I have tolerated other name calling by him just as he has by me over the last year or so. It does seem to be getting progressively worse. I am trying and have been trying to get get away from the name calling and the way I argue within the last few months, but the last few times we have argued and I try to remain calm his response to me has been "oh now you want to play the innocent one" or "why all of a sudden now do you want to play all calm" something along those lines. It's frustrating to me when it goes against everything in my being and I actually DO remain calm and speak without degrading and he just throws it in my face and doesn't recognize it. I then think "what's the point?" Actually I think "f*** him," but I don't say it.

I still am not sure what is going on with us. We are civil and polite right now. He still is not helping with anything around the house chores wise which really doesn't matter either way to me. It just makes me a bit resentful but overall I have no feeling either way. Not sure if this is a marriage I want to pursue for the long haul. And honestly, I think the only reason he would say he wants to stay is because his self esteem is low. I am always trying to build him up and frankly it is getting tiring. I guess we will just take it one day at a time and in the meantime be polite. I haven't felt secure in our marriage for quite some time and it's felt to me like it's me and him in this marriage not "us." I don't think that is a normal way to feel. But it does just validate my feeling that the only one in life you can count on is yourself. 

TO Madimoff- How are you now with apologizing? Are you able to do it with sincerity when you still feel you were the one wronged and if so how? It is gut wrenching and cry inducing but strangely enough I haven't really cried regarding the incident. I feel sad and almost get to that point when I think of it happening but it doesn't happen. I am more numb I guess.

Creda- You are very insightful. I keep rereading your posts and what you say is so true.

To Bunnybear- Thank you.  But he won't apologize. I know he won't. 

On a side note I have a really hard time forgiving and really don't recall a time in my life where I have. It's not that I am a hard ass I just don't know how I guess. Usually when I feel I have been hurt by someone I just check out and then eventually cut them out of my life. Coward's way? Yes probably but moving on seems to be the only way for me.


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## credamdóchasgra

2ndtimearound said:


> First off- Sorry for the double posts above. I got edit happy.
> 
> I am trying and have been trying to get get away from the name calling and the way I argue within the last few months, but the last few times we have argued and I try to remain calm his response to me has been "oh now you want to play the innocent one" or "why all of a sudden now do you want to play all calm" something along those lines. It's frustrating to me when it goes against everything in my being and I actually DO remain calm and speak without degrading and he just throws it in my face and doesn't recognize it.


This is all the more reason why you SHOULD continue to remain calm whether he does or not, whether he sees it or not.

He wants you to keep fighting. Don't give it to him.
If you don't give him the fight, he'll have to wonder what else there is.

Btw, my H does the same thing when I stand there with a calm smile. It makes him nuts. 
He thinks i'm being fake or smug.
But the more consistently you stick to a calmer approach, the more you will disarm him.

About forgiveness...if you haven't forgiven people in your past, it could be getting in your way in your current relationship without you even realizing it.
It's healthy to walk away from hurtful people or events; but the hurt parts in you need to be healed so they don't take the wheel destructively in your present relationships.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alphaomega

I think someone posted a " Rules to Arguments" type of post in one of these forums. Also, a rules guide to apologies.

Me...even when things were at thier worst di I ever call my SO a B or C out of anger. In fact, I can't remember swearing much during an argument. Myself, I feel it is weak to resort to names...not to mention mean and hurtful.

I think the B word was only ever used during teasing...which isn't really the same. Because maybe im laughing when I said it...lol.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra

alphaomega said:


> I think someone posted a " Rules to Arguments" type of post in one of these forums. Also, a rules guide to apologies.
> 
> Me...even when things were at thier worst di I ever call my SO a B or C out of anger. In fact, I can't remember swearing much during an argument. Myself, I feel it is weak to resort to names...not to mention mean and hurtful.
> 
> I think the B word was only ever used during teasing...which isn't really the same. Because maybe im laughing when I said it...lol.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Things like "rules to arguments" are great ideas.

The problem is...in relationships where they'd be most necessary and useful, are the people who habitually break them and REFUSE to respect them.

In a marriage in which the "rules" are respected, no one has to bring up the "rules."

It's the marriages that beg for "rules," where they are least likely to be followed.


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## turnera

There are several things going on here. One, the two of you apparently learned nothing between marriages. One would hope you'd take that time to learn about yourself, FIND your bad parts, and work on them. Unfortunately, most people don't do that. They just sit around and wait for 'love' to take them away and make it all better.

Two, both of you have atrocious behaviors and baggage. No matter if he said the 'c' word, no matter if you hit him, your marriage is in _really bad shape_. And if the two of you don't slow down and start working on all those issues you both have, your marriage isn't going to survive.

Three, walking away from an argument is NEVER a solution. Both of you are contributing to this and if you don't stop following the same patterns you both resort to, your marriage isn't going to survive.

Four, he called you that word.

But you hit him.

No one EVER deserves to be hit, unless they're some sort of serial killer and you're trying to stop him.

You hit him for control. You both know it. He fought it off for a couple days and gave in. Put his ring back on. But what did that get you? Or him?

Nothing excuses hitting, ok? Until you own up to that, you have no right to expect him to do anything.

Finally, while I wholeheartedly agree that the level of offense of that word is beyond anything else, I have a fair feeling that you would get blank stares from men if you tried to explain that to them. It's not part of their native language. They know it's a harmful word, so they sometimes use it. To HARM. But don't be thinking they understand the depths to which it hurts us. They can't empathize with this one. Know that.

So what it really is, is a matter of a boundary. Let me just say that my DH said it to me - once. I'm an extremely passive person, to a fault. Don't get riled up for anything, let people take advantage of me, let DH have his way a lot. But the one time he said that word to me...I stopped talking to him long enough to look him in the face, and calmly say 'If you EVER say that word to me, or in my presence, again, I'll go in the bedroom and pack my clothes and you'll never see me again.' And I left the room. 

You could have chosen that route.


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## sisters359

Now, see, if a stranger called me the same word, I'd start laughing--because their words have absolutely no power over me, and they'd look like an idiot. The moment that word came out, I'd have known I had "won" the disagreement and nothing the other person could say or do would have any impact on me from that moment. I'd just walk away, chuckling. And if/when they tried to jump me from behind, I'd use self defense and then call the cops. Definitely not my problem that they have serious anger management issues!

My point is that it's not about the word, it's about how one THINKS about a situation that determines how we feel and act. The "C" word has no power over me--it is a word used by losers who have nothing else left to say. I'm pretty much that way with any abusive language--it's about the powerlessness of the person using it, not about me. At the same time, I teach my children that using such words is inappropriate and represents their powerlessness in an argument.


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## credamdóchasgra

turnera said:


> Three, walking away from an argument is NEVER a solution. Both of you are contributing to this and if you don't stop following the same patterns you both resort to, your marriage isn't going to survive.
> 
> But the one time he said that word to me...I stopped talking to him long enough to look him in the face, and calmly say 'If you EVER say that word to me, or in my presence, again, I'll go in the bedroom and pack my clothes and you'll never see me again.' And I left the room.
> 
> You could have chosen that route.


Turnera, I think your response to your husband when he said that shows how walking away from a destructive and unproductive argument sometimes IS the best thing to do in the moment.

The last 2 times my H started yelling at me, I simply walked away to show him I won't take it. 
And it accomplished the SHORT-TERM goal: stopped the yelling, the behavior i don't like.

In the longer term, yes..."walking away" is not a sustainable solution.
But when things are volatile, unhealthy, and destructive, it cuts down on some of the damage in the moment.

And walking away can be VERY calming, so you don't come back as ready to attack.

2ndtimearound...My H is stuck in a vengeful, tit-for-tat mind-frame: "Why should I be nice when YOU'RE going to blah blah blah..."
So anything "wrong" I do, he uses to justify ANYTHING and EVERYTHING he might do. 

I'm choosing to think differently: 
"No matter what YOU do or say, the reasons why I should be decent, are MY reasons, and that's good enough for me to stick to them as well as I can."

DON'T choose your actions/reactions based on what HE does.
Choose them based on what YOU believe and want.

Decide what negative behaviors you are willing and able to STOP--NO MATTER WHAT HE DOES--and put a real effort to doing that.


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## credamdóchasgra

sisters359 said:


> My point is that it's not about the word, it's about how one THINKS about a situation that determines how we feel and act. The "C" word has no power over me--it is a word used by losers who have nothing else left to say. I'm pretty much that way with any abusive language--it's about the powerlessness of the person using it, not about me.


When you are married to someone who resorts to nasty language, this can be an empowering awareness.

It does NOT justify it. But it can ease the sting of it.

It DEFINITELY has no place in a marriage. But crying and telling your husband how much it hurts when he says that is essentially useless. He knows it's nasty; his intention is to be nasty.

*Throwing around hurtful weapons and being nasty is a defense mechanism that protects a person who feels terrified and weak.*

See the weakness behind it, and it can take away the power that reduces you to tears.


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## turnera

credamdóchasgra said:


> 2ndtimearound...My H is stuck in a vengeful, tit-for-tat mind-frame: "Why should I be nice when YOU'RE going to blah blah blah..."
> So anything "wrong" I do, he uses to justify ANYTHING and EVERYTHING he might do.
> 
> I'm choosing to think differently:
> "No matter what YOU do or say, the reasons why I should be decent, are MY reasons, and that's good enough for me to stick to them as well as I can."
> 
> DON'T choose your actions/reactions based on what HE does.
> Choose them based on what YOU believe and want.


Exactly.

When I first sought help, I complained nonstop about my DH. He was abusive, blah blah blah. After a couple YEARS of posters being patient with me and still pushing me to look at myself, I finally did.

And I didn't like what I saw.

No wonder he was being hurtful. I was more hurtful than HE was! But, see, I couched it all behind 'I have to protect myself.'

The BS behind that is that we each of us protect ourselves. Just as you justify bad behavior by saying he's worse, HE is doing the exact same thing!

It's a useless cycle - neverending - until someone gets off.

You're here, you're learning, so it needs to be YOU changing. 

And, unless he's psychotic or abusive or otherwise messed up in the head, he will respond.

Treat HIM as you would like to be treated yourself (but be a little more specific, as what HE likes is likely not the same things as what YOU like), and you will remove the stress from the marriage, and he'll start to respond in kind.

No one goes into a marriage wanting to hurt the other person. Stop giving them a reason to.


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## Runs like Dog

Women attacking men precisely like that, with stabbing words is one of the main weapons in their arsenal. Everyone knows that.Of course turning it around on them cuts. Who else would know better?


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## credamdóchasgra

Runs like Dog said:


> Women attacking men precisely like that, with stabbing words is one of the main weapons in their arsenal.


It goes both ways.

My husband has said things to me I would never dream of saying to someone I love.

But I have retaliated--which is not justifiable.


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## Halien

2ndtimearound said:


> First off- Sorry for the double posts above. I got edit happy.
> 
> Halien- I think it would be hypocritical of him to say "it's over" because I slapped him for calling me a c*** when he has been physical with me before. No punching or hitting, but pushing and bullying by getting in my face and um like chest bumping me backing me up etc. I too have pushed him off of me when he is inches from my face. However, with your background with your mom, I can see how it could be a deal breaker for you.
> 
> .


I wasn't very clear about the name calling. In my opinion, you should never have to hear name calling from your husband. One crude name can negate so much promise from the past. You deserve better, and its incredibly immature for him to do so. But two wrongs don't make a right. You can clearly and firmly tell him that there will be consequences if he calls you names in the future. Just think about how he would feel if you took a sudden four day weekend for mandatory space apart at your mother's home because he called you the "C" word. Then, tell him you would only return if he visits you there ( a safe zone), and the two of you talk about next steps. I'd be willing to bet that he would learn control. If I was the father, I would show him the compost pile in my back yard, and ask him to guess how many former boyfriends were buried there for using the "c" word with my daughter.

I'm not even saying that this is the way you should handle it, but if he is acting like a three year old, treat him like one. Find the circumstances that work for you, and tell yourself that you will be the better person. Never resort to physical violence, and you won't allow his actions to make you feel worse about yourself.


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## 2ndtimearound

Turnera-I believe the only reason he put the ring back on was so he wouldn't have to answer any questions maybe from co-workers or friends at work. Trust me, I don't think it was for my benefit and really if he didn't then so be it. I am not fighting for control. I am fighting to be heard. I clearly have no control in this marriage. 

Halien you are right. Thank you for more explanation. Two wrongs don't make a right. I think he deserves better also, I just don't know if I can be the person to give it to him. I am trying to sit with all this (and the past) and see which way we are going to go. 

For all of the b.s. and arguing he still wants to make it work. He gets so angry if I try and bring up our options one of which is separating the other counseling. I somehow think it is tied more to insecurity on his part then love and wanting to be married to me. But I don't say that. 

I have to say that for all of the sexual issues we (he) has had in the past I have not ONCE brought it up in an argument or made fun or name called etc. Not looking to get brownie points but to me some things are off limits. Apparently not to him on his part and I guess why this particular incident was particularly hurtful.

Creda you are extremely wise and insightful. And your words are powerful to me. I truly wished you lived in my town and we could get together and chat.


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## turnera

2ndtimearound said:


> I clearly have no control in this marriage.


You have all the control you want.


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## credamdóchasgra

2ndtimearound said:


> I am fighting to be heard.


The more you fight to be heard, the less he hears you. All he hears is the fight. All it does is provoke HIM to fight for the same thing.

My husband only "hears" me when I say very little.

Likewise, it's a fair statement when I *calmly* tell him, "I cannot hear you when you are yelling at me." 
--Not to mention a little fun to tell him something so maddeningly ironic, yet SO TRUE. 

And I only sound "wise" because I know no other way to learn but the hard way, and I listen to others who are doing the same!


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## madimoff

_TO Madimoff- How are you now with apologizing? Are you able to do it with sincerity when you still feel you were the one wronged and if so how? It is gut wrenching and cry inducing but strangely enough I haven't really cried regarding the incident. I feel sad and almost get to that point when I think of it happening but it doesn't happen. I am more numb I guess._Firstup, sorry for not answering - mixture of being busy and cr*p internet! 
I'm trying to apologise when I recognise my error, and do it fairly quickly - which some would quite reasonably say should be done automatically, but given I'm wising up I can see I pretty much haven't. Not totally without reason: let me explain if possible. My OH has many of the 'chest bumping' 'scary face' b*tch-calling, etc., characteristics once in upset mode and I think what happens is I hear all of that but don't hear his (actually quite reasonable) suggestion that perhaps I should apologise for whatever. I've told him this recently, when explaining some of what I've started to see about myself and he had to acknowledge the point. I'm not saying it justifies my stance, simply explains. So in a sense I'm also seeing that where previously I thought I was the wronged one, many times I wasn't so should have been the one saying sorry. If you follow
As usual, (though in reverse) creda says it much better:


credamdóchasgra said:


> (SNIPS) The more you fight to be heard, the less he hears you. All he hears is the fight. QUOTE]
> 
> Strikes me, Turnera too speaks for me!:
> 
> _ When I first sought help, I complained nonstop about my DH. He was abusive, blah blah blah. After a couple YEARS of posters being patient with me and still pushing me to look at myself, I finally did
> And I didn't like what I saw
> No wonder he was being hurtful. I was more hurtful than HE was! But, see, I couched it all behind 'I have to protect myself.'
> The BS behind that is that we each of us protect ourselves. Just as you justify bad behavior by saying he's worse, HE is doing the exact same thing!
> It's a useless cycle - neverending - until someone gets off.
> You're here, you're learning, so it needs to be YOU changing.
> And, unless he's psychotic or abusive or otherwise messed up in the head, he will respond.
> Treat HIM as you would like to be treated yourself (but be a little more specific, as what HE likes is likely not the same things as what YOU like), and you will remove the stress from the marriage, and he'll start to respond in kind.
> No one goes into a marriage wanting to hurt the other person. Stop giving them a reason to. _
> 
> I'm nowhere near as far down the road as Creda or Turnera and given that everyone's situation is different, the dynamics will be different and apply different stresses and imperatives. But looking at yourself first, even making the acknowledgement that you *maybe possibly could* look at yourself, is a definite start.


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## turnera

I do know this: apologizing is the most powerful tool on earth.


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## AvaTara539

2ndtimearound said:


> I think I need some advice. I just joined this forum and have been reading through similar situations. I am a 39 yr old woman on my second marriage. My husband is 41. I have been married 3.5 years and my husband and I have been together a total of 5.5 years. We had been friends about 2 yrs prior to dating having met at our previous place of employment. I have a 17 year old son from my first marriage.
> 
> I need some perspective. My husband was always the quiet type and considered a truly nice guy by myself and our co-workers. He is a romantic at heart, moreso than me, and used to be easy going. We have been going through tight financial times, like most people, but luckily we are both still working and making do. Anyway, we argue quite a bit. In fact, I have learned to bite my tongue (not an easy task) or not complain as much or let things go so he doesn't get so angry. But I still bring things up probably more than I should. We argued very rarely in the past and his temper never flared so much as it does now. We had another argument this morning during which he called me the "c" word. He didn't say that I was acting like one but "...you little "c".." Then I wanted him out of the room we were in and he said "why? so you can go cry again?" Even reading this as I type I can't believe this is something he would say to me. I think it may have been because I downplayed how hard he works at his job which was wrong. We have other issues in our marriage having to do with our sex life on his end, and I think my complaints during that time and his reaction back then led us to a shaky spot in our marriage. Add being busy and high pressure at his job and I guess my complaints and he just loses his temper. Anyway, after he said that he kept talking and talking and getting in my face. Once he stopped talking I slapped him across his face and told him not to ever call me that name again unless he wanted a divorce. He took his wedding ring off and threw it on the floor and walked out. He is now in the living room watching t.v. and not saying a word. This is his usual behavior after a fight. It's like he checks out until I go up to him and then we sorta act civil. But I want nothing to do with him. I feel bad for slapping him but not as bad as I felt when he called me that name. He tells me how much he loves me and how beautiful I am when we are fine but how can you love someone and call them that name? He's called me a "b***h" before which I can handle but this is just um...i don't know...just strange. Like I am having a hard time processing it. I really don't have anyone I can talk to so I thought I would post here. I feel a bit overwhelmed and numb at the same time. Thank you for any advice.


I would see the issue here as his blatant disrespect for you in general, not the "c" word. I've never known why women take such particularly strong offense to that, it doesn't bother me any more than the "b" word or anything else disrespectful. Psychological abuse is psychological abuse, and that's what being cruel to the woman you love is, no matter what term you use.


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## Scannerguard

Near the end of my marriage, while I was divorcing, I was guilty as charged and called my ex-wife that word.

If you need perspective from the other side, just ask. 

Good luck.


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## turnera

What did it mean to you, when you called her that?


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## tacoma

Let`s see…

You admit you complain too much.
(This makes a man wonder why he even bothers)
You "downplay" how hard he works in his "busy and high pressure job" to keep you financially solvent.
(This strikes at the heart of his manhood, his ability to provide)
Instead of helping him through what is sounds like a debilitating case of ED you complain about it.
(This utterly destroys a guys manhood)
You physically abuse him.
(Not acceptable EVER!!!)
You threatened divorce over name calling.
(Never threaten divorce over something so trivial it breeds insecurity)

I think you got off easy being called the "C" word.

My advice would be to beg his forgiveness and kiss his ass for next year or so.


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## turnera

:scratchhead:


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## Scannerguard

Well, I fit the profile of this husband pretty closely. . .it's not just me. . .but her family always said I was a nice guy, mild mannered. . .my patients and neighbors say the same thing, etc. (to give you a backdrop - I am a little more "open and humorous and forward here" at TAM).

Rather than give you the events leading up to the name calling (and I feel bad about it now and did pretty shortly after). . .well. . .it's a way of guys communicating with you women.

What?

You think communication is all about sitting over a cup of hot camomille tea in soft pajama's and talking for hours? You think it's about sitting in 2 leather seats with a PhD sitting across from you at a desk scribbling on a yellow steno pad?

I was frustrated and my ex-wife was being unreasonable and refusing to let me see the kids on Father's Day that was coming up because I didn't "ask." (and she had made no other plans like to go to her father's)

That's acting like a "c" and her behavior was "c-like." I wish I had chosen that phrasology though rather than call her that. . .focus on the behavior, not the person (even in divorce).

My point was successfully communicated, no? It sounds as if perhaps this husband sucessfully communicated his, no? Sometimes it's hard to reach through many layers of self-righteousness.

That word is like a booster to the transmitter; it's a word of last resort (we know you hate it. . .so we are dipping into our word bank reserves if we are going for that one) to transmit successfully to you women, who can be hard to reach.


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## turnera

Really? So, it's ok that you mentally raped me, because I was being hard to reach.

Wow. You sound like my husband, using the 'N' word. He justifies it by saying, 'if they would just act like decent people, I wouldn't have to call them that.'

Say what?

He SAYS that there are Blacks, and then there are the N word. Yet I can probably count on one hand the number of times he's used Black, in 30 years. 

And the odd thing is, our DD20's godfather was Black. And our best friends are Black. Yet he persists.

I posit that people who use words like C and N are feeling inferior, and 'dip into their reserves' to make themselves feel better than the other person.


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## turnera

fwiw, I've searched long and hard to find an equivalent to the C word, that would hurt a man as much as that word hurts many of us. The closest I've been able to come up with is to say you have a tiny ****. And I don't think even that makes you HURT as the C word does. Because using that word tells me that the person considers the woman 'less than.' Substandard. To be used and discarded. Disgusting. A piece of meat. I can't think of anything that could make a MAN feel that degraded.


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## 2ndtimearound

Tacoma- To clarify........I DO NOT put him down for his ED and never ONCE made fun of him for it. Not even when I have been furious. I wouldn't do that. I have expressed my feelings of being rejected and not good enough or rather not what he is attracted to. His ED problems make him less inclined to touch me or make any advances out of fear of failure. I in turn take that personal.


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## turnera

2ndtimearound said:


> Tacoma- To clarify........I DO NOT put him down for his ED and never ONCE made fun of him for it. Not even when I have been furious. I wouldn't do that. I have expressed my feelings of being rejected and not good enough or rather not what he is attracted to. His ED problems make him less inclined to touch me or make any advances out of fear of failure. I in turn take that personal.


 What do you mean by personal? IME, there's no greater fear in a man than ED, worse even than losing your job.


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## Runs like Dog

My wife called me a murderer, to our kids. That was evil divided by zero.


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## Syrum

turnera said:


> fwiw, I've searched long and hard to find an equivalent to the C word, that would hurt a man as much as that word hurts many of us. The closest I've been able to come up with is to say you have a tiny ****. And I don't think even that makes you HURT as the C word does. Because using that word tells me that the person considers the woman 'less than.' Substandard. To be used and discarded. Disgusting. A piece of meat. I can't think of anything that could make a MAN feel that degraded.


I would agree with this 100%.


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## Runs like Dog

No you've got it wrong. Women don't stab you to death with the words they say to you. They stab you to death with the words they say about you to someone else, while you can hear them. I bet if you unpacked most spousal murder this or something like this would be at the heart of it a goodly number of times. 

Men don't care about individual words that much. You can look and look and it won't matter. But it's that yappy ceaseless never back down in your face finger jabbing torrent of unending attacks that gets people killed. There really ARE times that when a man tells you please STFU you should take heed. Else the last word you get might be your last. 

Is that sexist? No it's reality.


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## Syrum

Runs like Dog said:


> No you've got it wrong. Women don't stab you to death with the words they say to you. They stab you to death with the words they say about you to someone else, while you can hear them. I bet if you unpacked most spousal murder this or something like this would be at the heart of it a goodly number of times.
> 
> Men don't care about individual words that much. You can look and look and it won't matter. But it's that yappy ceaseless never back down in your face finger jabbing torrent of unending attacks that gets people killed. There really ARE times that when a man tells you please STFU you should take heed. Else the last word you get might be your last.
> 
> Is that sexist? No it's reality.


Runs I don't doubt some women do that, just like some men are real @ss faces. However I have never said a bad word about my SO to anyone ever.

If I have an issue with him, I am very honest and (sometimes it may take a little while - a few hours) I will talk to him. 

I don't talk down to him, and I won't talk bad about him to anyone, and I hope he is the same (I'm sure he is). I want him to know that i think highly of him and value him, our problems are our own, and i don't think anything is gained by saying awful things or even slighting him the tiniest bit to someone else. I love him, my job is to make him feel good, not bad.


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## turnera

Runs like Dog said:


> Is that sexist? No it's reality.


If you say so.


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## Scannerguard

Mental rape? Because he used the c-word? Oh, c'mon. . .the melodrama of it all.

Sticks and stones?

It's just a word. . .I happen to think there is a time and place for all words. . .yes, even the n-word.

I remember once reading in an essay but a well-known essayist in my profession and he remarked, "Chiropractors are the "n's" of healthcare."

Now. . .there was much leading up to that statement, he didn't just drop the "n" word right off the get-go for shock value. But his choice to draw upon that word for needed reform in our profession and yes, a correct political characterization of our place in political healthcare was a potent statement. He was drawing a point - without the pharmaceutical prescription pad, that is the way we are regarded by policy makers.

Now, I am sure your husband (and myself) didn't use it quite so eloquently as this essayist. But we reach a point of frustration often with your behavior and we run out of ways to express ourselves.

I was clean out at that point. She had no legal basis, no moral basis, and no logical basis for her position of not allowing her children to see her father. 

Her behavior was c-like and I was going to be the only one who was going to point it out. Not her father, not her friends, not a Priest, Rabbi, or Minister.

I got my point across. I didn't mentally rape her.

This is actually a typical male-female type of communication. Women tend to natter and pick away at you in an abusive manner physically and mentally. You slapped him. You probably picked at him and demeaned him.

Do this as experiment. . .go up to an old dog and keep whipping a sock into his face and see what happens. You'll get away with it for a few times, maybe no response.

Then see what happens.

Same thing verbally and physically with a male.


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## Scannerguard

BTW, this isn't just me ruminating. . .I was listening to an NPR panelist who specialized in domestic violence and while there are cases of apes of men who just victimize their wives for no reason, there are also a significant percentage of men who are victimized verbally and physically and then lash out.

This is why often you see women not wanting to press charges after the cops are called. They feel guilty because they wacked the man over the head with a rolling pin and then the man used disproportionate force and bopped her one.

Take this down to the verbal level.

This doesn't justify anything, ANYTHING at all. . .the point the panelist was trying to make is a lot of domestic violence is preventable by women. . .just like by not wacking a sock in a dogs face. . .or like when I was throwing rocks at a rooster when I was 5 years old and he turned and attacked the hades out of me.


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## Syrum

Scannerguard said:


> BTW, this isn't just me ruminating. . .I was listening to an NPR panelist who specialized in domestic violence and while there are cases of apes of men who just victimize their wives for no reason, there are also a significant percentage of men who are victimized verbally and physically and then lash out.
> 
> This is why often you see women not wanting to press charges after the cops are called. They feel guilty because they wacked the man over the head with a rolling pin and then the man used disproportionate force and bopped her one.
> 
> Take this down to the verbal level.
> 
> This doesn't justify anything, ANYTHING at all. . .the point the panelist was trying to make is a lot of domestic violence is preventable by women. . .just like by not wacking a sock in a dogs face. . .or like when I was throwing rocks at a rooster when I was 5 years old and he turned and attacked the hades out of me.


Oh seriously, just like cheating is preventable if only people would do XYZ. Cheaters cheat because they choose too and violent people are violent because they choose to behave that way.

The OP was wrong for slapping her husband and her husband was wrong for using the C word both terrible and damaging behaviours, both are accountable for their own actions.

People are not roosters.

I do know a lot about domestic violence having been in a violent relationship, and I have also studied social work, specializing in children and families in particular studied a lot about domestic violence. 

I would really love to see this segment you watched and this so called specialist. 

I am actually gobsmacked by what you have posted.


----------



## Scannerguard

Well. . .it appears logic has gone out the window sometimes with psychobabblists. . .I'll try to get the NPR link/podcast for you and post it.

What I mean by logic going out the window is when I came in at 5 years old, whining "The Rooster Packed Me! The Rooster Packed Me!" and they found out what I did to provoke the rooster. . .well, my parents told me I got what I deserved.

Very un-PC of my parents at the time, I suppose. (my father did put the rooster down eventually, if I recall)

We are all animals; a human is a type of animal.

As a social worker, what are the measures you do to prevent domestic violence, since you have studied it so much? Say a woman is living in a verbally abusive environment. . .besides the "pat" recommendation of "leave 'em", which is thrown about like Piels at a Keg Party here. . .what do you recommend to prevent verbal, emotional or physical abuse from occuring further?


----------



## Scannerguard

*Pitt Psychologist Says Women First to Hit!
by Lynne Margolis *

_
Conventional wisdom says that in cases of domestic violence, men attack and women are victims. But a University of Pittsburgh psychologist believes it may be the other way around- that women hit first, and men hit back because they're provoked.

Irene Frieze, a Pitt professor who teaches human sexuality and the psychology of gender, says her studies of domestic violence show that much of it begins during dating, and that the women is often the aggressor. While that type of violence is considered "low-level" - slaps, pushes or kicks - Frieze says she believes such actions "get the whole thing started."

"I'm worried that eventually, he's going to start fighting back," she said Wednesday after the university released a description of her work. Her findings were based on a survey of 300 college students conducted three to five years ago. Frieze said she could not cite specific dates for the survey.

Frieze found that when violence was defined as any use of physical force in the context of disagreement, two-thirds of the students reported some violence in their dating relationship. Both males and females reported women were more violent than men in those relationships, Frieze said.

"Some of these women are acting in this way with extreme confidence that they can get away with it," Frieze said. But if a women smacks her boyfriend around enough, Frieze said, he may eventually get tired of it and get mean.

"We're conditioned to think that men do this to women," Frieze said, noting she began the study be because she was skeptical of reports that women start the violence. Those who deal with the victims of domestic violence strongly disagree with Frieze.

"I've have never known of a situation where two consenting adults have agreed to hit each other," said Nardi Obarski, prevention education coordinator for the Center for Victims of Violent Crime in the Strip District. "Violence has escalated in the last few years. I don't know that there's a specific trend that women are inviting it ... I have a great deal of trouble with that," Obarski said.

She said she worries Frieze's theory might fuel men's claims that they're justified. Frequently, Obarski said, a man will tell a women if she would only do as he instructs her, he wouldn't have to hit her, which makes her believe it's her fault. 

Marty Friday, executive director of the Women's Center and Shelter of Greater Pittsburgh, agreed. "Domestic Violence is a whole pattern of behavior where one person is controlling another and it can take many forms," she said. "... It's not just a push and slap, it's a pattern of behavior where one person is coercing the other to commit some behavior against their will."

There is a big difference between a women's defensive aggression and men's violent behavior, Friday said. "(Women precipitating the violence) is definitely not our experience, and we talk to over 11,000 women a year and work with 6,000 women a year in the court system."

While noting police sometimes arrest both parties in cases of domestic violence, she added, "in saying that woman are provoking it, that's where it becomes important to define domestic violence or what we call intimate partner violence."

Women often believe they provoked and will say they are responsible for it even when they're not, Friday said. And while she may hit first, there's no reference in the study for what he may have been doing, such as dangling car keys in her face and then pulling them away or similar taunting.

"I don't want to minimize, either, someone hitting someone," Friday said. But she added it's hard to equate the kind of violence men perpetrate against women with the kind of violence Frieze says women commit. "What we define as domestic violence, the perpetrators are overwhelmingly male," Friday said. "Occasionally, we hear that young women are more violent than they used to be, but there's no documentation of that."

Even Frieze admitted the situation she discusses the issue with don't take it seriously because it's not severe violence. "There is rarely any injury ... at least in the initial stages," she said. But she reported women have told her low-level violence "makes them feel stronger in the relationship." "Some relationships stay at that low level and nothing seems to happen," Frieze said. "But in some relationships, it seems to build and build and build." While she has no evidence that severe violence is precipitated by low level violence, Frieze said she hopes to get funding to do a longitudinal study, in which people are followed over time for a more complete picture of their behavior.

_

This wasn't the link but it illustrated the thoughtful, balanced discussion that occurred at NPR that would have gobsmacked you.

It's a very radical hypothesis this researcher is working to prove:

Women aren't innocent.

What do you think of that hypothesis?


----------



## Syrum

Scannerguard said:


> Well. . .it appears logic has gone out the window sometimes with psychobabblists. . .I'll try to get the NPR link/podcast for you and post it.
> 
> What I mean by logic going out the window is when I came in at 5 years old, whining "The Rooster Packed Me! The Rooster Packed Me!" and they found out what I did to provoke the rooster. . .well, my parents told me I got what I deserved.
> 
> Very un-PC of my parents at the time, I suppose. (my father did put the rooster down eventually, if I recall)
> 
> We are all animals; a human is a type of animal.
> 
> As a social worker, what are the measures you do to prevent domestic violence, since you have studied it so much? Say a woman is living in a verbally abusive environment. . .besides the "pat" recommendation of "leave 'em", which is thrown about like Piels at a Keg Party here. . .what do you recommend to prevent verbal, emotional or physical abuse from occuring further?


I don't even feel like responding, because i feel quite sick.

I was abused by my ex boyfriend. Do you know what I did to him?

NOTHING. I don't call people names, I don't yell. I had to walk on egg shells because I never knew what was going to p!ss him off. I never "nagged"him I was too scared. I was allways waiting to see what kind of mood he was in which could change at any moment.

What could I have done other then leaving him? NOTHING.
(Because luckily I know I am worth more than that and I did leave, but unfortunately some women cannot leave for various reasons).

What you are posting is dangerous, and very upsetting. I will be back and post stats and some really relevant info on domestic violence.

Before you ask-
Can men be victims? YES But the stats show men are not the victims of violence from women, as often as women are from men. Men are also more likely to harm other men (men are victims of violence from other men more often). Also men are far less likely if victims, to be afraid for their lives (Which I can tell you I was). Women should not abuse men and men should not abuse women ever. The victim is not at fault.

What you are saying and promoting is dangerous, and wrong.


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## Syrum

I have no doubt that some women do commit low level violence, and that is wrong, and so do some men.

It is all wrong, but men are still statistically more likely to be violent, and to induce real fear when they do it. If you look at the stats women are more likely to murdered by her husband then he is by her. Usually these murders are committed by men who have been violent and or emotionally abusive.

If what you are saying is true then it is these mens fault that they are the recipiant of low level violence?:scratchhead:
However that is also not true, no man or woman deserves abuse, physical or emotional. Making excuses for mens violence by saying some women do it too, is ridiculous and a way to deflect from the real issues.

Don't you know you can't control some one elses behaviour, it is their choice how they behave.


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## AbsolutelyFree

Maybe there's a bit of misunderstanding.

I don't think that Scannerguard is saying women are at fault for being domestically abused, that men are justified in abusing women, or that some women 'deserve' to be abused.

The idea seems to be that there's an escalation over time (in the article, years) that both partners participate in which often results in this behavior. Maybe by being aware of these behaviors, and recognizing the patterns early on, both partners could learn to control themselves better.


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## Runs like Dog

Tunera - 

Yeah I do. It's sad and its trite but it's true.


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## Mom6547

Syrum said:


> I have no doubt that some women do commit low level violence, and that is wrong, and so do some men.
> 
> It is all wrong, but men are still statistically more likely to be violent, and to induce real fear when they do it.


There is some reason to suspect that this is not even a little bit true. Once upon a time, there was little evidence of domestic violence. It was embarrassing and not reported. Now women's groups and advocates have made social change. We are behind the curve there where men are concerned. Domestic violence against men is, apparently, wildly under reported. So we really cannot make any accurate claim about which one is more likely.

I wonder what difference it makes. It seems that domestic violence would be abhorrent regardless of the gender of the victim.


----------



## Syrum

AbsolutelyFree said:


> Maybe there's a bit of misunderstanding.
> 
> I don't think that Scannerguard is saying women are at fault for being domestically abused, or that men are justified in abusing women.
> 
> The idea seems to be that there's an escalation over time (in the article, years) that both partners participate in which often results in this behavior. Maybe by being aware of these behaviors, and recognizing the patterns early on, both partners could learn to control themselves better.


No usually with abusive relationships (I am talking about more serious verbal, emotional and physical abuse), the abuser is like this before they meet their partner (victim). They try to hide it untill they can't any longer and then their real selves come out and usually the cycle of abuse starts. The victim does not do anything to deserve this, and most "normal" people do not become violent bullies in the face of everyday domestic disputes.

To say that the victim is to blame is ridiculous.

There may some exceptions where relationships deteriorate and someone hurts the other as a one time deal but they are still being abusive and responsible for their own behaviour. However you will find Most abusive situations not like that. Abusers often terrorize victims. If you have not experienced it perhaps you cannot understand.

My ex was violent, he was emotionally abusive and verbally abusive. He was also abusive when it came to money etc. not just one thing. We were only together 9 months all up and he was violent for the last 3. Before that he was quite nice. a comman pattern in abusers.


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## sisters359

Scannerguard, it is going BACKWARDS to say, "She asked for it." 

Nothing excuses the behavior of a woman who abuses her spouse.

NOTHING excuses the behavior of a man who responds to abuse by hitting back. 

The only reason one person hits another is because they CHOOSE to. No one can MAKE any of us do, think, or feel anything--we decide those things for ourselves. 

Do some women behave in ways that are totally inappropriate, aggravating, irritating, and sometimes down right abusive? Of course.

Does that give one the right to bash 'em back? Nope. 

Do some abusers abuse without any precipitating event/cause? Yep. Research shows that, too--women (in particular, but not exclusively) are victimized by men who have serious mental health problems. Some women get out on their own. Others need a lot of help. In extreme cases, they are so victimized they stay until they are dead and/or their children are dead, or they end up killing their abuser--this is pretty rare, however. 

A woman's bad behavior never justifies a man's bad behavior, or vice versa.


----------



## Syrum

Mom6547 said:


> There is some reason to suspect that this is not even a little bit true. Once upon a time, there was little evidence of domestic violence. It was embarrassing and not reported. Now women's groups and advocates have made social change. We are behind the curve there where men are concerned. Domestic violence against men is, apparently, wildly under reported. So we really cannot make any accurate claim about which one is more likely.
> 
> I wonder what difference it makes. It seems that domestic violence would be abhorrent regardless of the gender of the victim.


No domestic violence by men and women is drastically under reported. 

The truth is that men when even taking that into account are less likely to be abused.

Anon relationship forums like this one often show men posting about problems they deem embarressing and would rarely tell anyone. However they tell all here, sometimes men post about physical abuse (rare)and verbal abuse (far more regular occurance. But women post more often about these things because it does occur more often to women. 

That doesn't mean that men aren't dealing with other unfair things or belittling etc, which is also abusive IMO. It still is not the same thing.

That does not minimize it when it happens to men. But don't minimize the issue of violence to women by saying it happens to men just as much.

I think it suits some peoples interest to say "Look women are just as bad as men" and it doesn't do anybody any favours. women do plenty of things wrong in relationships and are sometimes abusive but lets not skew the facts about domestic violence.

This just irks me.


----------



## Syrum

sisters359 said:


> Scannerguard, it is going BACKWARDS to say, "She asked for it."
> 
> Nothing excuses the behavior of a woman who abuses her spouse.
> 
> NOTHING excuses the behavior of a man who responds to abuse by hitting back.
> 
> The only reason one person hits another is because they CHOOSE to. No one can MAKE any of us do, think, or feel anything--we decide those things for ourselves.
> 
> Do some women behave in ways that are totally inappropriate, aggravating, irritating, and sometimes down right abusive? Of course.
> 
> Does that give one the right to bash 'em back? Nope.
> 
> Do some abusers abuse without any precipitating event/cause? Yep. Research shows that, too--women (in particular, but not exclusively) are victimized by men who have serious mental health problems. Some women get out on their own. Others need a lot of help. In extreme cases, they are so victimized they stay until they are dead and/or their children are dead, or they end up killing their abuser--this is pretty rare, however.
> 
> A woman's bad behavior never justifies a man's bad behavior, or vice versa.


Exactly.


----------



## AbsolutelyFree

Syrum said:


> *To say that the victim is to blame is ridiculous.*


It certainly is. It isn't what I was saying at all though.

Have you ever heard about how women who were abused in some way by their fathers will often end up paired with abusive men later in life? Some people describe the uncanny way in which these people always seem to end up with one another. Similarly, most of us have heard about a woman who finally frees herself from her abusive boyfriend or husband, but then, the next boyfriend is also abusive.

I once heard a psychologist describe how there is almost a subconscious 'radar' which the victim and abuser have which causes them to find eachother. 

Do you agree with this concept?


----------



## Mom6547

Syrum said:


> No domestic violence by men and women is drastically under reported.
> 
> The truth is that men when even taking that into account are less likely to be abused.


On what do you base this? There are no studies that can prove anything one way or the other. But the journal articles I have read seem to indicate the degree to which men are resistant to reporting seriously cloud the issue. So I wonder what you base this on.


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## Mom6547

People who have self confidence usually look for people with self confidence. People who abuse or are victims generally have abysmal self confidence.


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## turnera

Runs like Dog said:


> Tunera -
> 
> Yeah I do. It's sad and its trite but it's true.


For YOUR situation. Doesn't make it a fact of sociology.


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## Syrum

> The questions below address many of the myths associated with domestic violence and describe the dynamics of abusive behavior. The warning signs, such as jealousy, name calling and possessiveness, are red flags for an abusive relationship. If you need someone to talk to or fear you are in danger, please call your local domestic violence program or the BU Police for emergency help.
> 
> Myth: When a couple is having a domestic violence problem, it is just that they have a bad relationship. Often, it's poor communication that is the problem.
> 
> Fact: Bad relationships do not result in or cause domestic violence. The idea that bad relationships cause violence in the home is one of the most common, and dangerous, misconceptions about domestic violence. First, it encourages all parties involved - including and especially the victim- to minimize the seriousness of the problem and focus their energies on "improving the relationship" in the false hope that this will stop the violence. It also allows the abuser to blame the bad relationship and the violence itself on the victim, rather than acknowledging his/her own responsibility.
> 
> More importantly, improving the relationship is not likely by itself to end the violence. Violence is learned behavior. Many couples have had bad relationships yet never become physically violent. Many batterers are violent in every one of their relationships, whether they consider them bad or good. The violent individual is the sole source and cause of the violence, and neither his/her partner nor their relationship should be held responsible.
> 
> Myth: Most domestic violence incidents are caused by alcohol or drug abuse.
> 
> Fact: Many people have alcohol and/or drug problems but are not violent, similarly, many batterers are not substance abusers. How people behave when they are "under the influence" of alcohol and/or drugs depends on a complex combination of personal, social, physical and emotional factors. And like many other types of behavior, alcohol or drug-affected behavior patterns are culturally learned.
> 
> It is often easier to blame an alcohol or drug abuse problem than to admit that you or your partner is violent even when sober. Episodes of problem drinking and incidents of domestic violence often occur separately and must be treated as two distinct issues. Neither alcoholism nor drugs can explain or excuse domestic violence.
> 
> Myth: Domestic violence is often triggered by stress, for example, the loss of a job or some financial or marital problem.
> 
> Fact: Daily life is full of frustration associated with money and work, our families and other personal relationships. Everyone experiences stress, and everyone responds to it differently.
> 
> Violence is a specific learned and chosen response to stress, whether real or imagined. Certainly, high general levels of domestic violence can be related to social problems such as unemployment, however, other reactions to such situations are equally possible. Some people take out their frustrations on themselves with drug or alcohol, some take it out on others with verbal or physical abuse.
> 
> Myth: Most domestic violence occurs in lower class or minority communities.
> 
> Fact: Domestic violence occurs at all levels of society, regardless of their social, economic, racial or cultural backgrounds.
> 
> Researchers and service providers have found, however, that economic and social factors can have a significant impact on how people respond to violent incidents and what kind of help they seek. Affluent people can usually afford private help - doctors, lawyers and counselors while people with fewer financial resources (i.e., those belonging to a lower economic class or a minority group) tend to call the police or other public agencies. These agencies are often the only available source of statistics on domestic violence, and consequently, lower class and minority communities tend to be overrepresented in those figures, creating a distorted image of the problem.
> 
> Myth: The victim did something to provoke the violence.
> 
> Fact: No one deserves to be beaten, battered, threatened or in any way victimized by violence. Batterers will rarely admit that they are the cause of the problem. In fact, putting the blame for the violence on the victim is a way to manipulate the victim and other people. Batterers will tell the victim, "You made me mad" or "You made me jealous" or will try to shift the burden by saying "Everyone acts like that." Most victims try to placate and please their abusive partners in order to deescalate the violence. The batterer chooses to abuse, and bears full responsibility for the violence.
> 
> Myth: Most batterers simply lose control during violent incidents and do not know what they're doing.
> 
> Fact: If batterers were truly out of control, as many claim to be during violent incidents, there would be many more domestic violence homicides. In fact, many batterers do "control" their violence, abusing their victims in less visible places on their bodies, such as under the hairline or on the torso. Furthermore, researchers have found that domestic violence often occurs in cycles, and every episode is preceded by a predictable, repeated pattern of behavior and decisions made by the batterer.
> 
> Myth: Men are victims of domestic violence as often as women, even if they aren't reported.
> 
> Fact: The bottom line is that domestic violence is a crime -- regardless of the gender of the abuser or the victim and regardless of whether it is a heterosexual or same-sex relationship. Data from the FBI and the Bureau of Justice Statistics show that 85% of victims of intimate partner violence (IPV) are women. Acknowledging this indisputable fact does not negate our concern for the men who comprise the remaining 15% of IPV victims.
> 
> Myth: Domestic violence is a less serious problem - less lethal - than "real" violence, like street crimes.
> 
> Fact: It is a terrible and unrecognized fact that for many people, home is the least safe place. Domestic violence accounts for a significant proportion of all serious crimes - aggravated assault, rape and homicide. Furthermore, when compared with stranger-to-stranger crime, rate of occurrence and levels of severity are still under reported for domestic violence.
> 
> Warning Signs of Abuse
> Check this list of warning signs to help answer the question: Am I Safe? These behaviors may indicate that you or someone you know is suffering from an abusive relationship.
> 
> Are you with someone who.....
> 
> * Is jealous and possessive toward you, won't let you have friends, checks up on you, won´t accept breaking up?
> * Tries to control you by being very bossy, giving orders, making all the decisions; doesn't take your opinion seriously?
> * Is scary? You worry about how they will react to things you say or do? Threatens you, uses or owns weapons?
> * Is violent: has a history of fighting, loses temper quickly, brags about mistreating others?
> * Pressures you for sex, is forceful or scary around sex? Thinks of you as a sex object? Attempts to manipulate or guilt-trip you by saying "If you really loved me you would....." Gets too serious about the relationship too fast?
> * Abuses drugs or alcohol and pressures you to take them?
> * Blames you when they mistreat you? Says you provoked them, pressed their buttons, made them do it, led them on?
> * Has a history of bad relationships and blames the other person for all the problems?
> * Believes that men should be in control and powerful and that women should be passive and submissive?
> * Has hit, pushed, choked, restrained, kicked, or physically abused you?
> * Your family and friends have warned you about the person or told you they were worried for you safety?
> * If you are gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender, has threatened to 'out' you to family, friends, or co-workers if you don't comply with certain demands?
> * If you are an immigrant, has threatened or tried to turn you in to authorities and get you deported?
> 
> If you answered "YES" to any of these questions in thinking about yourself or someone you know, help is available. You can call an advocate at a local program or contact any of the following people if you feel safe doing so
> 
> * the staff at a domestic violence or sexual assault program
> * a police officer
> * a member of your family
> * a teacher or school counselor
> * your friends or their parents
> * your priest, minister or rabbi
> * a doctor or nurse
> * people in court- the district attorney or victim witness advocate
> * another adult you trust


Domestic Violence Myths


----------



## Scannerguard

Yes, this was so predictable. . .I knew a lot of the women of the forum were going to say,

"You are blaming the woman."

Well, you are overprojecting what I am saying plain and simple.

If I give you instructions on how to prevent auto accident injuries - wear your seatbelt, drive sober, drive defensively, dont' drive when tired, please don't text and you are in an auto accident despite following preventative measures, does that mean it was your fault? 

No. . .I would say, "Maybe that accident may have been preventable if you did this." just like I may say, "That episode of violence may have been preventable if you just simply walked out instead of teasing him about his ED."

Neither should a woman natter at a man physically or mentally or you are playing with fire.

What are the stats? I can't recall. . .it wasn't overwhelming. . .but it was enough for this researcher to take notice. . .something like 30-40% of the cases the male was provoked either physically or with emotional taunting and then responded with disproportionate force (thus the c-word). It may have been as high as 50%.

Again, this is why the police hate these situations. . .they show up and then the woman doesn't want the husband hauled away. Intuitively, a lot of them know they weren't the Innocent Victim.

Again, I am full of "gender stereotypes" but that's okay, becuase I am right a lot of the time. 

Let me explain what happens with male physiology with anger. When a woman is angered, her anger (not her grudge and resentment - that can last for decades) have pretty much dissipated within minutes. For a male, their physiological state lasts for hours afterwards. About the only thing that can cure it is some exercise. The adrenaline is pumping and the sympathetic nervous system is turned on (fight or flight). YOu know that feeling you have 1 minute into the conflict. . .imagine that lasting for hours and hours.

This is why we prefer to withdraw in most female-male conflict situations. . .because if we get angry, it's hours before we can feel normal again if there is no physical outlet.

However, if we are taunted, like the dog or the rooster. . .eventually the male will break down and resort to ugly language or even worse.

It's probably the WORST type of communication you can face as a female - often, you are trying to get a reaction out of us. . .to communicate and you are frustrated we are not communicating and we don't. . .because we know how awful it will feel if we get angry. The situation spirals downward. 

I am only advising women to examine your actions and use common sense prevention strategies in the short term, like drive sober, and for the long term, yes, leave the SOB if he is violent and the relationship is that caustic.

You need to separate the concepts of 

FAULT 

and 

PREVENTION.

I am talking about prevention.

But then again, often people tell me that Pit Bulls are nice dogs and blah, blah, blah, your kids can pet them and OMG. . .I can't beleive little Rover tore your child's ear off. . .he's never done anything like that before.

I can be pretty non-PC.

I'd just rather tell my kids to stay away from Pit Bulls. . .they are bred to fight and cause damage. What? Am I concerned about hurting Pit Bull owner's feelings? Nooooooo.


----------



## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> Yes, this was so predictable. . .I knew a lot of the women of the forum were going to say,
> 
> "You are blaming the woman."
> 
> Well, you are overprojecting what I am saying plain and simple.
> 
> If I give you instructions on how to prevent auto accident injuries - wear your seatbelt, drive sober, drive defensively, dont' drive when tired, please don't text and you are in an auto accident despite following preventative measures, does that mean it was your fault?


Disclaimer: I have not read the whole thread response by response.

What you observe is not uncommon. What is every person in the world's solution to domestic violence? That the victim leave. Does the fact that the victim must act impart blame on him or her for the occurrence of the abuse that caused the required action? Of course not! That is absurd. The abuser should.... the abuser must... well that woudl be nice but it ain't gonna happen. 

Conversations about tactics that enable victims to take control of their lives need to be very, very careful because there was a time when victims of sexual and domestic abuse WERE genuinely blamed. The rape victim who wore a "provocative" outfit. The wife who failed to perform home making to his satisfaction. That was real ****. And people bought it.

So when we seek to speak about solutions, it behooves us to understand to history of the subject matter. In my opinion.


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## Scannerguard

Mom,

I understand the line between prevention and fault is blurry.

I think honestly instruction should happen in the following way with men and women:

MEN:

Discuss fault. . .that if you hit a woman, no matter what. . .the fault will always lie with you. Talk about prevention strategies too, like withdrawal from the situation if it is escalating, if she is escalating it especially.

WOMEN:

Discuss fault - it is never your fault. . .but there are things you can do to prevent incidents of domestic violence, but never cure it.

I don't know. . .as far as dressing provocatively, it seems like Grandma's commonsense principles went out the door years ago when the Pill was invented. Grandma told their granddaughters they shouldn't dress like that, it's dangerous and Grandma seemed like a fuddy-duddy, I guess. . .here we are.. . .we now need liberal PhD's armed with millions of taxpayor dollars research to suggest to us that perhaps dressing provocatively isn't a good idea either, not Grandma.


----------



## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> Mom,
> 
> I understand the line between prevention and fault is blurry.
> 
> I think honestly instruction should happen in the following way with men and women:
> 
> MEN:
> 
> Discuss fault. . .that if you hit a woman, no matter what. . .the fault will always lie with you. Talk about prevention strategies too, like withdrawal from the situation if it is escalating, if she is escalating it especially.


Are you referring to the general group of "men"? I am confused by what you are saying. Any individual man who would hit a person does not have the mental or emotional capacity to think in such practical and concrete terms as prevention.




> WOMEN:
> 
> Discuss fault - it is never your fault. . .but there are things you can do to prevent incidents of domestic violence, but never cure it.


I don't know. . .as far as dressing provocatively, it seems like Grandma's commonsense principles went out the door years ago when the Pill was invented. Grandma told their granddaughters they shouldn't dress like that, it's dangerous and Grandma seemed like a fuddy-duddy, I guess. . .here we are.. . .we now need liberal PhD's armed with millions of taxpayor dollars research to suggest to us that perhaps dressing provocatively isn't a good idea either, not Grandma.[/QUOTE]
That is a nice little bundle of not very interesting history. In the final analysis, if i prefer miniskirts, that does not give you the right to take unconsentual sex from me. Consent is the ONLY thing that gives you the right to have sex with me. 

Does that make it wise to walk around the scummy urban areas in stripper wear? No. Duh.


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## Scannerguard

> Are you referring to the general group of "men"? I am confused by what you are saying. Any individual man who would hit a person does not have the mental or emotional capacity to think in such practical and concrete terms as prevention.


I am talking about the socialization of our young boys, whether that's from a father, pastor, teacher or coach.

I can recall the Captain of our beach patrol teaching us about "Jail Bait" nearly the first week on the job. . .lectured the whole 80 guards. . .jail bait, in review, is essentially 15 year old provocative sexually mature girls wanting to score a lifeguard and then the male is on trial for statuatory rape.

Baywatch even did a show about it. . .so it must be true, given the sharp literary composition the writers had of that show. 

Again, I 100% agree it is the man's fault if a 19 year takes a 15 year old under the boardwalk.

However, I would think this would perhaps be preventable if your daughter wasn't being provocative in front of the lifeguards, in behavior and in dress.

Prevention. Fault. Different things.




> That is a nice little bundle of not very interesting history. In the final analysis, if i prefer miniskirts, that does not give you the right to take unconsentual sex from me. Consent is the ONLY thing that gives you the right to have sex with me.


Straw man argument - I did not say that you know it.



> Does that make it wise to walk around the scummy urban areas in stripper wear? No. Duh.


Well. . .it would seem to be a no-brainor. . .


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## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> I am talking about the socialization of our young boys, whether that's from a father, pastor, teacher or coach.
> 
> I can recall the Captain of our beach patrol teaching us about "Jail Bait" nearly the first week on the job. . .lectured the whole 80 guards. . .jail bait, in review, is essentially 15 year old provocative sexually mature girls wanting to score a lifeguard and then the male is on trial for statuatory rape.
> 
> Baywatch even did a show about it. . .so it must be true, given the sharp literary composition the writers had of that show.


You live in a completely different world than I do. 



> Straw man argument - I did not say that you know it.


Yes I know that. Just adding my own voice.


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## Runs like Dog

Watch any episode of 'Deadwood'. Your head might explode. Words even filthy Anglo Saxon monosyllabic grunts, get comical if you say them enough. Then again my parents used to curse using Russian and Polish and translated, they're not 'bad words' just strange.


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## Syrum

Scannerguard said:


> Yes, this was so predictable. . .I knew a lot of the women of the forum were going to say,
> 
> "You are blaming the woman."
> 
> Well, you are overprojecting what I am saying plain and simple.
> 
> If I give you instructions on how to prevent auto accident injuries - wear your seatbelt, drive sober, drive defensively, dont' drive when tired, please don't text and you are in an auto accident despite following preventative measures, does that mean it was your fault?
> 
> No. . .I would say, "Maybe that accident may have been preventable if you did this." just like I may say, "That episode of violence may have been preventable if you just simply walked out instead of teasing him about his ED."
> 
> Neither should a woman natter at a man physically or mentally or you are playing with fire.
> 
> What are the stats? I can't recall. . .it wasn't overwhelming. . .but it was enough for this researcher to take notice. . .something like 30-40% of the cases the male was provoked either physically or with emotional taunting and then responded with disproportionate force (thus the c-word). It may have been as high as 50%.
> 
> Again, this is why the police hate these situations. . .they show up and then the woman doesn't want the husband hauled away. Intuitively, a lot of them know they weren't the Innocent Victim.
> 
> Again, I am full of "gender stereotypes" but that's okay, becuase I am right a lot of the time.
> 
> Let me explain what happens with male physiology with anger. When a woman is angered, her anger (not her grudge and resentment - that can last for decades) have pretty much dissipated within minutes. For a male, their physiological state lasts for hours afterwards. About the only thing that can cure it is some exercise. The adrenaline is pumping and the sympathetic nervous system is turned on (fight or flight). YOu know that feeling you have 1 minute into the conflict. . .imagine that lasting for hours and hours.
> 
> This is why we prefer to withdraw in most female-male conflict situations. . .because if we get angry, it's hours before we can feel normal again if there is no physical outlet.
> 
> However, if we are taunted, like the dog or the rooster. . .eventually the male will break down and resort to ugly language or even worse.
> 
> It's probably the WORST type of communication you can face as a female - often, you are trying to get a reaction out of us. . .to communicate and you are frustrated we are not communicating and we don't. . .because we know how awful it will feel if we get angry. The situation spirals downward.
> 
> I am only advising women to examine your actions and use common sense prevention strategies in the short term, like drive sober, and for the long term, yes, leave the SOB if he is violent and the relationship is that caustic.
> 
> You need to separate the concepts of
> 
> FAULT
> 
> and
> 
> PREVENTION.
> 
> I am talking about prevention.
> 
> But then again, often people tell me that Pit Bulls are nice dogs and blah, blah, blah, your kids can pet them and OMG. . .I can't beleive little Rover tore your child's ear off. . .he's never done anything like that before.
> 
> I can be pretty non-PC.
> 
> I'd just rather tell my kids to stay away from Pit Bulls. . .they are bred to fight and cause damage. What? Am I concerned about hurting Pit Bull owner's feelings? Nooooooo.


Oh dear lord.

People are not dogs. They are not animals and have the ability to control themselves. They have free thought.

Do you know what leaving the room got me when I was I was in a relationship? I was scared to leave him because I knew he would hurt me. And you know what? He did, and he hurt my child too. 

It got me chased down and punched and kicked.

I am telling you with an truly abusive person it does not matter what you do or do not do.

If a guy is being physically or verbally abused by his wife. He is not at fault. He may be at fault for other things in the relationship, and helping escalate arguments, but he does not control her behaviour she does.

Same goes for women stuck in abusive relationships.

Most people in really abusive relationship, are not argumentative, they are too frightened to be arguing, they are walking on egg shells.

Blaming other people for your violent actions, makes you a weak person. if you cannot control your temper YOU should leave the room, and learn ways to control your self.


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## turnera

Guys, can we take this to another thead, please?


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## Scannerguard

I"m done.

Let's jsut keep it simple. . .domestic violence. .. man bad. . .woman hapless victim. . .unpreventable. . .react. . .don't proact/prevent. . .our system serves the woman well. . .moving along. . .


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## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> I"m done.
> 
> Let's jsut keep it simple. . .domestic violence. .. man bad. . .woman hapless victim. . .unpreventable. . .react. . .don't proact/prevent. . .our system serves the woman well. . .moving along. . .


The system serves no one.


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## Mom6547

And if you are going to be done, be done!


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## Scannerguard

> And if you are going to be done, be done!


Yessum, Miss Daisy.


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## Mom6547

Scannerguard said:


> Yessum, Miss Daisy.


Glad you know I am messing with you. Though... not so sure since I never saw it.


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## turnera

Anyone heard from the OP? Or did we chase her off?


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## credamdóchasgra

turnera said:


> Anyone heard from the OP? Or did we chase her off?


Good point. She was looking for personal support and help.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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