# "Forced", to cheat? CHOICE to cheat



## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

This is by way of a couple of statements. NOBODY has ever been forced to cheat. Not by marital problems, not by lack of sex, not by lonliness, not by the BS, not by the AP, not by ANY outside influence, OF ANY KIND. Cheating is a choice made by and for the WS. The reasons for it are ONLY in the minds OF the WS's. You , simply put, CANNOT force, persuade, coerce cajol, beg, shmooze, order or plead for a person to cheat, IF THEY DON'T WANT TO. The only truly remorseful WS's are the ones who take ALL of of the Blame for the cheating, on their own heads , without any excuses of any kind.
That is my take on it.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Yep


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

I can't force my dog to run off or to bite me but I can create conditions which will make it more likely that either will happen.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> I can't force my dog to run off or to bite me but I can create conditions which will make it more likely that either will happen.


Wonderful, do you know what separates us from animals? Our conscience, the ability to think before making decisions. Which is perhaps the only reason why we can be malicious and selifsh.

But dogs are a bad analogy, my good man. You do know that they are more faithful than most wives.


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## I'mInLoveWithMyHubby (Nov 7, 2011)

That's the first time I heard that excuse. Nothing justifies an affair.

My ex h said I set him up to cheat, blaming me. WTHeck? Really? I set him up to hunt down women and sleep with them.

I'm so glad those days are over. I left that fool and married a very honorable man. I have no doubt in my mind he'll never cheat. He spends all his time with us and calls me several times a day while he's working(when he gets a moment).


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## costa200 (Jun 27, 2012)

That's just the rationalization hamster. It goes round and round until they come up with that kind of conclusion. Because it then becomes compatible with the idea they have of themselves, because even cheaters like to think of themselves as "good people".


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

*NOBODY has ever been forced to cheat*

or kill, or take something that doesn't belong to them, or in my religion - divorce

They are _ALL WRONG_

under certain conditions some are justifiable -


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I think a lot of WS confuse their justifications to cheat as being forced.


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## Decorum (Sep 7, 2012)

No one forces them to cheat, so there is no excuse, 
but after they confess (we have all seen it) they have no good reason for it either.
Even when we tell them you have to go to ic and find out why you did this.
(Low esteem, dirty girl, lonely, etc..)

Its like no one can force them but also they cant stop themselves.

Confusing?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

"Forced to cheat?" Sure!!! That's such a compelling answer!

I guess that nasty old person just put a gun upside their head and made them cheat! If that's the scenario, then I would think that they would call that "forcible rape!"


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## Vanguard (Jul 27, 2011)

But they're just doing what they need to do to *survive!*

Wouldn't the true wrong be to deny themselves the pleasure they need?


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

WhiteMousse said:


> But they're just doing what they need to do to *survive!*
> 
> Wouldn't the true wrong be to deny themselves the pleasure they need?


Survive what exactly? Death, or just that insatiable sexual twinge that they're feeling between their legs?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

As unbelievable said... At the point I chose to cheat, my wife had put me in a situation with a number of really bad options. Separation/divorce with all the financial and emotional impacts to the kids and family... "Putting up" with the situation, with the continued escalation of frustrations, resentments, and tension, followed by having to chose from the same bad list later. Or trying to meet my needs elsewhere while keeping the family together and unaffected.

I made that choice, and chose poorly. I don't blame anyone for forcing me to cheat, but I do blame my wife (at least partially) for forcing me to make a choice. She had many options up until that point. She KNEW our sex life wasn't satisfactory. She KNEW I was very unhappy with the current situation. Yet she refused to work with me to improve the situation.

In summary, the marriage vows are a two way agreement. Yes, I agreed to love her exclusively. But she also agreed to love me. Withholding sex and shutting down intimacy does not equal love, in my books.

C


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

PBear said:


> Or trying to meet my needs elsewhere while keeping the family together and unaffected.


This is a classic. I'm pretty sure the last thing on your mind or anyone else's mind was the family.

And life, my friend, is full of choices. The very fact that you get out of bed each morning, or that you brush your teeth is a choice. Over time you keep choosing the same thing over and over and over again till it becomes second nature.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

BjornFree said:


> This is a classic. I'm pretty sure the last thing on your mind or anyone else's mind was the family.
> 
> And life, my friend, is full of choices. The very fact that you get out of bed each morning, or that you brush your teeth is a choice. Over time you keep choosing the same thing over and over and over again till it becomes second nature.


You can be sure of whatever you like, "my friend". You didn't live the last 5 years of my marriage. I spent months struggling with what to do in my marriage. And what effect my decisions would make on my kids was definitely high on my list of things that I thought about.

Again, I freely acknowledge that I chose to have two affairs. I've posted on here about them in the past. My decision to seek someone out was entirely my choice, not my wife's, not my affair partners, nobody elses but my own. And for the rest of my life, when I enter in a relationship with someone else, I'll have to admit that yes, I've cheated on someone else in my past. It's not something I'm proud of, and it's definitely not something I've advocated in any of my posts in here.

But my wife also had choices prior to me even considering having an affair. She chose to avoid our bedroom until she knew I was asleep, even if it meant getting a poor sleep on the couch and complaining about being tired all the time. She chose to make sure the kids came along on every travel opportunity and stay in our hotel room to make sure no hanky-panky occurred. She chose to drink to the point of begging off sex on the few occasions we did go out on the town without kids, and then as a bonus, she could claim the hangover the next day as a reason to avoid Sunday morning sex. She chose not to talk to me about her issues, not to talk to her doctor, not to get help if that's what she needed. In the same way no one can force someone else to cheat, no one can force someone else to get help or to change if they really don't want to do so.

I'm not claiming that this is the case in all situations and relationships. I'm sure there's lots of wonderful people who are cheated on for no apparent reason. But there's lots of us cheaters that would have given an awful lot to live out our lives in a happy contented marriage, and that option was taken away from us as well. We were left to look at a list of very bad options, and some of us chose wrongly. But yes, making that choice was entirely our decision.

C


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

PBear said:


> ...
> 
> But my wife also had choices prior to me even considering having an affair. She chose to avoid our bedroom until she knew I was asleep, even if it meant getting a poor sleep on the couch and complaining about being tired all the time. She chose to make sure the kids came along on every travel opportunity and stay in our hotel room to make sure no hanky-panky occurred. She chose to drink to the point of begging off sex on the few occasions we did go out on the town without kids, and then as a bonus, she could claim the hangover the next day as a reason to avoid Sunday morning sex. She chose not to talk to me about her issues, not to talk to her doctor, not to get help if that's what she needed. In the same way no one can force someone else to cheat, no one can force someone else to get help or to change if they really don't want to do so.


Tough situation and in a sense isn't denial of conjugal rights 'cheating' of a sort? 

Again cheating, killing, stealing, divorce - all WRONG
sometimes anyone of these acts are justifiable. 

We should be happy to NOT be in a position to make a justification. And i don't mean a justification in mind only, as any act can be 'justified' in your mind. 
i.e. I shot him b/c he's a bastrd; I shot him b/c he was about to shoot me
I took the bread b/c my child was starving and I was willing to risk jail: I took the bracelet b/c it looked cool and i didn't have money


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## Fvstringpicker (Mar 11, 2012)

Although I know its impossible to do, I'm leaving God's law out for the moment. For simplicity, I'm going with a basic definition that "cheating" is having sex with someone other than your marital partner. Generally, when a couple have sex, neither of the two of them are hurt by the act. Quite the contrary. Keeping that general statement in mind, two married people involved in a liaison are not hurt (barring the possible aftermath) The people hurt are the other spouses. 
When two people marry, there are certain responsibilities and expectation for each of them. One such expectation is love and affection. If one spouse willfully withholds love and affection, the other spouse is hurt and will sometimes seek it outside the marriage whereas had the love and affection been there, it wouldn't have happened. The irony of such a situation is that the one withholding the love and affection is the one screaming how bad they hurt when the cheating is disclosed, never stopping to think how they hurt and depreciated their spouse. My caveat is when you put your spouse at the bottom of your priorities, you may end up at the bottom of theirs. 
Whether you consider it forced or voluntary, cheating on ones spouse is well thought about and internally sanctioned before it happens.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

People have to have some reason for doing what they're doing and that includes remaining faithful. It'd be pretty presumptious of me to punch my wife out and call her ugly names every day and then act amazed if she finds a friendlier male companion.


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## Broken at 20 (Sep 25, 2012)

Being forced, and having a choice are very different. 

IF the draft was reinstituted, I would be *forced* to enter the armed forces (just assuming I get called up, making this easy)
My *choice* is to either: choose which branch I go into, or spend my time in jail for refusing to do it. 

If you are in an unhappy marriage because you aren't getting enough sex/affection, or whatever it is you want you have the choice to either:
Try and fix it, and through lots of hard work, either fix it, or realize the marriage can't be fixed and divorce
Or cheat and make it worse. 

And in both of these situations, there is a right decision to make. But it is also the harder choice to make. 

Thinking I could go to Afgahistan to kill or be killed, is scary. 
Sitting in jail is easy. 

Talking with your spouse about your needs, and how they aren't being met, and how you two need to do some counseling, is hard because you have no idea how your spouse will react, and they may blow up on you. 
Having an affair is easy.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

The choice to cheat is just one of the constants. the other one is that the WS will ALWAYS have tons of excuses or "reasons", why they chose to cheat. One follows the other. Let me ask the posters here on TAM this question. How many times have you seen a WS who made NO excuses? One who never mentioned anything except their own issues? Think hard about it, because they are fewer than hen's teeth. Can'tsitstill and Pidge are two of the very best.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

The cheater is the one common denominator and at the same time is solely responsible for their own sordid plans and actions; it does not matter what type of self-justifying excuses that they purport to their family and friends.

And more often than not, the content of that verbage, not only makes them philanderers, but liars as well!


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Most of the WS's that come here are really looking for a way to R, but can't come to grips with their own actions. Their hearts are in the right place but the knowledge of how to proceed is lacking. These can be helped. But some others will come here to seek justification more than reconciliation. We have some WS's that, by dint of constant repetition and manipulation, have actually gotten their BS's to accept part or all of the blame for the affair. How many times have we heard the litany of how wonderful a person they really are and how cheating was so alien to them, BUT their spouse drove them to cheat. These are the truly selfish ones who will gladly assume the status of the victim, if their husbands are either weak enough or gullible enough to allow this to happen. It's really amazing how many desperate BS's will swallow this , hook, line and sinker.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Most of the WS's that come here are really looking for a way to R, but can't come to grips with their own actions. Their hearts are in the right place but the knowledge of how to proceed is lacking. These can be helped. But some others will come here to seek justification more than reconciliation. We have some WS's that, by dint of constant repetition and manipulation, have actually gotten their BS's to accept part or all of the blame for the affair. How many times have we heard the litany of how wonderful a person they really are and how cheating was so alien to them, BUT their spouse drove them to cheat. These are the truly selfish ones who will gladly assume the status of the victim, if their husbands are either weak enough or gullible enough to allow this to happen. It's really amazing how many desperate BS's will swallow this , hook, line and sinker.


True, a possible explanation is that the BS is still attached to the image of the ideal spouse they thought they had. Its also likely that the BS is afraid to have his world shaken up and by believing all the crap that the WS makes up he can find some semblance of stability. Overtime I imagine the BS slowly coming to the realization that they've been tricked again. Again, some wake up some don't.


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Badblood said:


> It's really amazing how many desperate BS's will swallow this , hook, line and sinker.


One line that really telling is when the BS states...

"It's hard to understand her having a long term PA, cheating, lying, sneaking around, BUT, she has always been a GREAT MOTHER to our children."


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

RWB said:


> One line that really telling is when the BS states...
> 
> "It's hard to understand her having a long term PA, cheating, lying, sneaking around, BUT, she has always been a GREAT MOTHER to our children."


Well, it IS possible to be a good mother or father, yet be a crappy wife or husband.


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## Ovid (Oct 11, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Well, it IS possible to be a good mother or father, yet be a crappy wife or husband.


Hard to be a great parent when you're spending all of your time away from the kids mentally or physically.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Ovid said:


> Hard to be a great parent when you're spending all of your time away from the kids mentally or physically.


I'm sorry that was your case. Mine was the same, sort of. My wife detached from childrens too.
Still it's not always the case. At All.

Also we can be not that stelar parent without cheating. We can out at risk the family without cheating. Too many ways. Personal responsability is universal.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acabado said:


> I'm sorry that was your case. Mine was the same, sort of. My wife detached from childrens too.
> Still it's not always the case. At All.
> 
> Also we can be not that stelar parent without cheating. We can out at risk the family without cheating. Too many ways. Personal responsability is universal.


Sorry, Acabado , but I don't get what you're trying to say here.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

I was adressing Ovid's statement about being good parents and cheating. Many spouses (BSs and WSs alike) neglect their childrens, are absent parents, get involved in situations which put at risk the family, the finances, stability.... there're are a bunch of ways to screw your family beyond infidelity. That's all. I own my stuff. I was an alcoholic and a drug addict for a while for what it's worth therefore risked my family.
It's also unfair to believe ALL cheaters are per se bad parents. Of course cheating implies putting at risk the family but the above explains my thoughs on the matter.

ETA 
sorry for the T/J


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## Count of Monte Cristo (Mar 21, 2012)

Broken at 20 said:


> Being forced, and having a choice are very different.
> 
> IF the draft was reinstituted, I would be *forced* to enter the armed forces (just assuming I get called up, making this easy)
> My *choice* is to either: choose which branch I go into, or spend my time in jail for refusing to do it.
> ...


BAt20, you are wise beyond your years. I shudder to think how different my life would've been had a resource like this been available when I was your age.

EDIT: ...and smart enough to take advantage of it.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Let me ask the posters here on TAM this question. How many times have you seen a WS who made NO excuses? One who never mentioned anything except their own issues?


I missed this. My wife never blamed me, the OM, the blue moon. She owned it fully. It hardly helped me. She was madly in love with MOM anyway, she was crushed when OM vanished anyway. I was a non entity (as a lover, as a husband) anyway.
At least I wasn't insulted by blame****ing. Poor relief back then but later helped me (us) lots.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Sometimes even tough honesty will pay future dividends, Acabado. I would like for your W to come here to TAM and explain it to some of the other WS's. Too many attempt to play the victim, and need the voice of a true remorseful WS to show them the way.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

> Sometimes even tough honesty will pay future dividends


x100


> Acabado. I would like for your W to come here to TAM and explain it to some of the other WS's


Not gonna happen. While my english is horrible she hardly knows "Yes and "no". She didn't read books, got help online. We never used IC, never went to MC. It was me who surfed the web and read like a mad man for 3 years. That's why I had to dust my english. Nothing worthy in spanish.

Another thing my never did was to act secretively, she used hel usual email, never got a second phone. She saved the chat story, tyheir emails, their texts (She deleted the rest!).


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

My wife too has taken full responsibility for her cheating, she actually said she was being selfish. The affair "just happened". My theory, poor boundaries and a personality disorder. She admitted she just got bored with marriage and family, needed novelty and excitement. 

Now that divorce is pending, she wants back in. Tearful pleas. Misses me so much, will love me forever, nobody will ever love her like I do blah blah...

I agree with Pbear, there can be some terrible conditions in some marriages, and if you can't endure them, divorce before you cheat. Take the financial hit and deal with the effect on children, you took a chance when you got married and sometimes the other person turns to crap, but I'd rather have my self respect and not cheat.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

Badblood said:


> Sometimes even tough honesty will pay future dividends, Acabado. I would like for your W to come here to TAM and explain it to some of the other WS's. Too many attempt to play the victim, and need the voice of a true remorseful WS to show them the way.


Juicer's wife...


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

maincourse99 said:


> My wife too has taken full responsibility for her cheating, she actually said she was being selfish. The affair "just happened". My theory, poor boundaries and a personality disorder. She admitted she just got bored with marriage and family, needed novelty and excitement.
> 
> Now that divorce is pending, she wants back in. Tearful pleas. Misses me so much, will love me forever, nobody will ever love her like I do blah blah...
> 
> I agree with Pbear, there can be some terrible conditions in some marriages, and if you can't endure them, divorce before you cheat. Take the financial hit and deal with the effect on children, you took a chance when you got married and sometimes the other person turns to crap, but I'd rather have my self respect and not cheat.



She wants back in already ? It hoped it would take longer 

And she is in a very bad financial shape too. Don't fall for it


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

warlock07 said:


> Juicer's wife...


Wasn't going to mention any names, Warlock, but it was in my mind.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

I do have to hand it to my wife,a little.
The TT lasted all of about 10 minutes,the blameshifting went on for a few days then stopped.She did try to rug sweep for about a month but she owns it and she knows it.
It does'nt make it any easier though,it still sucks azz and I'm still fvcking struggling 8 months later.
If she did'nt own up to it I would not still be trying.
What a bunch of crap,she didnt have to put me through this sh!t.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

maincourse99 said:


> My wife too has taken full responsibility for her cheating, she actually said she was being selfish. The affair "just happened". My theory, poor boundaries and a personality disorder. She admitted she just got bored with marriage and family, needed novelty and excitement.
> 
> Now that divorce is pending, she wants back in. Tearful pleas. Misses me so much, will love me forever, nobody will ever love her like I do blah blah...
> 
> I agree with Pbear, there can be some terrible conditions in some marriages, and if you can't endure them, divorce before you cheat. Take the financial hit and deal with the effect on children, you took a chance when you got married and sometimes the other person turns to crap, but I'd rather have my self respect and not cheat.


Dude, don't open that door!!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Speaking as a Disloyal Spouse, I can say right now with absolutely 100% knowledge that no one is ever "forced" to cheat. That is B.S. and I'd throw the :bsflag:

Here's the God's honest truth. The marriage is sick. Both parties are not doing well. Both parties hurt a lot. There are arguments and extremely hurtful things are said....or there is silence and you feel like you don't exist. Both are probably lonely. But the fact of the matter is that at some point the Disloyal Spouse feels like they have tried to speak to or work with or DO SOMETHING with the Loyal Spouse, and the Loyal Spouse said, "No" either out loud verbally or by doing nothing. Both spouses have pretty much given up. 

And that's when it happens. There's not a strong personal boundary...the Disloyal Spouse maybe doesn't know themselves and their own weaknesses...and being an adult they are responsible for their own choices AND THEY CHOOSE TO CHEAT. 

Okay I've been there. It can be subtle. Maybe you don't see it at first or realize the danger at first...I get that. But at some point you ARE aware of the danger and choose to do it anyway!! Kudos to you if you're like AnnieAsh and you see the danger and DO SOMETHING to stop your own self beforehand!! That was so encouraging to be part of her thread. But for the rest of us--um no. We were not forced to cheat. 

If my Dear Hubby had given up and refused to do anything about himself and how he was treating me, I completely had the *moral options* of moving to another bedroom, going to a counselor to work on myself, going to a marriage counselor with or without him, separating or eventually of filing for divorce. And yep in my mind even as a Christian if you speaking with your spouse alone and they don't listen...and then you speak to like your pastor and they still don't listen....and then you speak to the elders and they still just will not work on the marriage, then we aren't breaking the covenant. All those are choices that are 100% moral and that could have been made, and instead we chose the option to be unfaithful. 

So nope. I get it--affairs don't happen in a vacuum--but we sure as shooting are not "forced" to cheat.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

This is what I keep trying to get across to those Waywards, who come here with a grocers list of "reasons', (excuses) for their cheating, most of which involve faults (real or supposed) of the BS. They truly want to assume the mantle of victim, to assuage their guilt. Those WS's who will refuse to blame -shift are unfortunately very rare.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Its a choice.Plain and simple.Its wrong.
I do see some on here owning up to it.
I see a couple other that took awhile to come around.
To me its almost like a robbery.
Just because you were broke and needed something you didnt have to hurt others to get what you wanted,or even needed unless its a life or death situation.
There are other ways.
Others always get hit in the crossfire when in comes to an affair.
Sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## RWB (Feb 6, 2010)

Affaircare said:


> And that's when it happens. There's not a strong personal boundary...the Disloyal Spouse maybe doesn't know themselves and their own weaknesses...and being an adult they are responsible for their own choices AND THEY CHOOSE TO CHEAT.


AC,

That pretty much sums up my wife and her 1st affair. She honestly says that she didn't even recognize that she was having an affair with her boss, at first. Yeah, they had kissed each other and were close, but she didn't see it like a affair, just a special "friend". Gradually, she became more confused about what she was doing and the status of our marriage. Still, she thought it was something that she could deal with and didn't want to let it go. 

She admitted to me that at that moment, she knew it was wrong, she had a the opportunity to stop, "AND SHE CHOSE TO CHEAT."


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Badblood said:


> This is what I keep trying to get across to those Waywards, who come here with a grocers list of "reasons', (excuses) for their cheating, most of which involve faults (real or supposed) of the BS. They truly want to assume the mantle of victim, to assuage their guilt. Those WS's who will refuse to blame -shift are unfortunately very rare.


I agree that a wayward always makes a choice.

I think that some make the choice in a context with more extenuating circumstances than others.

I don't agree that anyone who comes talking about the issues that preceded their cheating is trying to blameshift. I think sometimes they are trying to provide more detail and sometimes they are confused in themselves. 

My wife's decision to cheat was 100% hers. The problems in the marriage that pushed her in that direction were partly hers and partly mine. Once she came out of the fog, she always accepted full responsibility. More than that, she finds it difficult to live with what she did.

That doesn't mean that we ignore the problems in the marriage prior to the affair! When we talk about them, it has everything to do with improving the marriage, and nothing to do with blame games.

Likewise I will engage and try to help a cheater who posts, not set some sort of sh!t test with how remorseful they are before I assist.

Just my two cents. I know not everyone will agree with me


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Badblood said:


> This is what I keep trying to get across to those Waywards, who come here with a grocers list of "reasons', (excuses) for their cheating, most of which involve faults (real or supposed) of the BS. They truly want to assume the mantle of victim, to assuage their guilt. Those WS's who will refuse to blame -shift are unfortunately very rare.


Okay but here is the difference. Most people don't really come on here thinking "You know, let me tell you what I did wrong." I would say 99.99% of people think something closer to "Can you folks help me change my spouse?" or "How can I get my spouse to...?" Right? And they are looking at all the **** their spouse did, pointing fingers at them, avoiding looking at themselves...and friends that is Loyal Spouse and Disloyal Spouse alike! I don't know of ANY Loyal Spouses that have come on here saying: "Oh my gosh! My spouse told me they weren't happy and I ignored them, and now they've gone and left me!" Nope, the Loyals do the same as the Disloyals, and that first post is usually all about all the things their spouse did to "make them" scream, or ignore them, or whatever. 

So I see a Disloyal come on here, my job isn't to run them off. It's not to blow sunshine up their skirt but you know what? I can empathize a little with feeling that lonely and that hurt and that desperate and then make stupid choices. That's why I don't join in the "oh poor me" pity party nor do I call 'em a bunch of names or say they have mental illness or personal flaws. Look...we ALL have issues. That is just the way it is. I do. You do. Everyone reading does...because not a one of us is perfect. So my job isn't to be the judge. My job is to help them help themselves by stopping the affair!! 

If they are Disloyal, I help break through that foggy thinking and show them some reality. I encourage them to do the right thing (something their "divorcee friends" probably aren't doing), and tell them they can do it and be brave and tell the truth. And I get them to see that if they want things to change, they can't change their spouse but they can change themselves and do something different. I teach 'em tools to understand what their spouse is going through, how to face conflict in a healthy way and not avoid it, and how to communicate better.

If they are Loyal, I help them realize that life as they know it is over. That old marriage has to die and it will never be "the way it was" because "the way it was" lead to a vulnerable marriage. I encourage them to do the brave thing to wake their spouse up and fight like a tazmanian devil to save their marriage. I show 'em that they really need to be brave and stand up for 100% and nothing less. And I get them to see that if they want things to change, they can't change their spouse but they can change themselves and do something different. I teach 'em tools to understand what their spouse is going through, how to face conflict in a healthy way and not avoid it, and how to communicate better.

So just as there are darn few Disloyals who come here with the personal understanding to start with "Here's what I did wrong" likewise there are darn few Loyals who come here and understand that they contributed to the demise of the marriage by ignoring, by giving the silent treatment and the cold shoulder, by scorekeeping, by raging, by demanding... They weren't "forced" to harm their marriage; they chose it. And the Loyal needs to face and deal with their own pile, the same way that the Disloyal needs to face and deal with their own pile.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

AC, I agree 100% that both parties need to deal with their own issues. I agree that people will come to TAM with a list of grievances that would stun an ox. What I vehemently disagree with is that the Marriage/spousal issues caused the cheating,........ absolutely not proven. The cheating lies in the mind of the cheater and nowhere else. I would venture to say that hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of marriages, have issues, yet cheating does not take place. Why? Because most people have a basic core of integrity, love for their spouse, and respect for the institution that stops them. The cheaters do not have this integrity, love, or respect, they have selfishness, hatred and entitlement , instead. When you chose to cheat, your husband didn't make you do it, the marriage issues did not do it, YOU, and your selfish feelings and lack of respect and love, did. So, in order for there to be a true R, the WS needs to work on their character flaws , first, for both their own self-improvement and to show their BS that they are indeed a changed person, and can be trusted as a marriage partner.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

As practicality goes, the sooner the WS has their head pulled out of their posterior, the better for everyone concerned.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Affaircare, you already know my story. You know the heartache, worry, anger and pain I suffered both for my wife's sake and for myself. I've been accused of being "harsh" and "negative", but you know that I am neither.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Badblood said:


> What I vehemently disagree with is that the Marriage/spousal issues caused the cheating,........ absolutely not proven.


So if this is not proven, as you say....



Badblood said:


> The cheating lies in the mind of the cheater and nowhere else.


...where is the proof for this outside your personal opinion?


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## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

There will never be any convincing of either sides opinion.

To those that have been cheated on, you will never ever convince them of anything other than that their WS was 100% wrong, didn't have to do it, is a low life loser who has no morales.

To those that have been the WS you will never convince others that have been cheated on that there is any excuse whatsoever, even if you have been 100% abandoned, abused, left sexless, blah blah blah.

Judge no one. Worry about yourself. Not one person here has a spotless life-record.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

BeachGuy said:


> There will never be any convincing of either sides opinion.
> 
> To those that have been cheated on, you will never ever convince them of anything other than that their WS was 100% wrong, didn't have to do it, is a low life loser who has no morales.
> 
> ...


But I was cheated on. And it's my wife who has the trouble forgiving herself for what she did!

However you are right there is no way to prove either way. I post to provide a positive alternative for those who may be hurt by what BB says.

BB and I are old sparing partners. He things I'm wrong and I know he's wrong.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Wazza said:


> So if this is not proven, as you say....
> 
> 
> 
> ...where is the proof for this outside your personal opinion?


The proof is in life. Almost all marriages have problems, but relatively few marriage partners resort to cheating to alleviate those problems.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

BeachGuy said:


> There will never be any convincing of either sides opinion.
> 
> To those that have been cheated on, you will never ever convince them of anything other than that their WS was 100% wrong, didn't have to do it, is a low life loser who has no morales.
> 
> ...


The typical feel-good response. We're all victims, right?


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Wazza said:


> But I was cheated on. And it's my wife who has the trouble forgiving herself for what she did!
> 
> However you are right there is no way to prove either way. I post to provide a positive alternative for those who may be hurt by what BB says.
> 
> BB and I are old sparing partners. He things I'm wrong and I know he's wrong.


Yes, Waz, we all know how saintly you are, and how your advice is always soooo positive, while I'm the mean guy. I can live with that. I can also live with the effects of my words, if posters are hurt by them then the hurt is also in themselves, because I've never called anybody names, nor attempted to force my opinion on anybody. Do you understand the term, "debate?"


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

So what happens if we apply the thinking in this thread to both spouses?

"I really wasn't forced to work late all those nights. Before you cheated, I chose to neglect you in favor of my career."

"I admit I exaggerated things a bit. Before you cheated, I chose to make the marriage sexless and I chose not to give you a realistic chance to fix it."

Is this a reasonable expectation of "loyal" spouses?


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Yes, Waz, we all know how saintly you are, and how your advice is always soooo positive, while I'm the mean guy. I can live with that. I can also live with the effects of my words, if posters are hurt by them then the hurt is also in themselves, because I've never called anybody names, nor attempted to force my opinion on anybody. Do you understand the term, "debate?"


I don't mind encouraging someone who's on the right track, though I don't see why its necessary. If you need to plug a leak, you don't need the crowd sitting on the sidelines and screaming encouragement. it needs to be done because it needs to be done.

BB i don't know how others think of you but I think that you are a realist as am I. And i find your comments succinct and to the point, I appreciate that. I don't think people should need anything more than the knowledge that they've wronged somebody to do what is right, and all of them know right from wrong. Otherwise all the deceit is uncalled for.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Acorn said:


> So what happens if we apply the thinking in this thread to both spouses?
> 
> "I really wasn't forced to work late all those nights. Before you cheated, I chose to neglect you in favor of my career."
> 
> ...



If the foundation starts crumbling, then you need to look at ways to strengthen it or you need to buy a new house.

You don't bring a bulldozer to demolish it in the hopes that a new house will magically spring from the wreckage.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

We just had this conversation last night (I think this is our only conversation topic anymore).

I was miserable, lonely and unhappy in our marriage.

I was not forced to cheat (EA). I had a choice. Saying I was forced places the blame for my actions on my husband which isn't fair. He is responsible for other problems/issues, but it's not right to put this on his shoulders.

I face that same choice anew EVERY day to either remain faithful and work on this marriage, to file for divorce or to engage in another A.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

BjornFree said:


> If the foundation starts crumbling, then you need to look at ways to strengthen it or you need to buy a new house.
> 
> You don't bring a bulldozer to demolish it in the hopes that a new house will magically spring from the wreckage.


So, I'll ask again...

If we want this: "Honey, I admit I chose to demolish the house in hopes that another would magically spring from the wreckage. I'm sorry."

Is it reasonable to expect this: "Dear, you own the bulldozing, but I admit I chose to ignore you when you asked me to go downstairs and look at the cracks in the foundation."


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

Acorn said:


> So what happens if we apply the thinking in this thread to both spouses?
> 
> "I really wasn't forced to work late all those nights. Before you cheated, I chose to neglect you in favor of my career."
> 
> ...


It's still a choice. We (WS) had a choice to either make a final stand, divorce or cheat. 

My hubby was in a major depression, we were only having sex every few months and I started working 12+ hours a day to avoid being at home with him since he refused MC.

The 'right' choice when he refused counseling would have been to LEAVE. 

By choosing to have an EA, I took the most painful path possible. Instead of being the wife he KNEW he could count on to always have his back, be faithful and could trust without question, I chose to create a situation where I don't know if he'll EVER be able to trust me again.


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## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Acorn said:


> Is it reasonable to expect this: "Dear, you own the bulldozing, but I admit I chose to ignore you when you asked me to go downstairs and look at the cracks in the foundation."


If we both want R, sure why not.

Otherwise, don't expect anything, not from my mouth at least. Especially if you're the only one interested in R.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

How wonderful it must be to be free to treat one's spouse like dog crap for years and still try to occupy the moral high ground if they turn elsewhere for the companionship and support you vowed to provide. If I persistently ignored my wife's needs, I'd be at least as guilty as she if she finally decided to have an affair.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

TCSRedhead clearly get it.
Thanks.


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## TCSRedhead (Oct 17, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> How wonderful it must be to be free to treat one's spouse like dog crap for years and still try to occupy the moral high ground if they turn elsewhere for the companionship and support you vowed to provide. If I persistently ignored my wife's needs, I'd be at least as guilty as she if she finally decided to have an affair.


That spouse has a CHOICE. They can at any time say that you need to change your behavior and leave if it doesn't change. That leaves both of them with trust intact, without shame and embarrassment that comes from choosing to engage in an affair.

I think that's terribly unfair to blame the other person for what WE chose. I can tell you that my husband does feel badly now that he sees how miserable I was and wants to make our marriage good again. 

The problem is that by making the choice to go to another man and lay out all my problems, text some pretty sexual content and pictures, I now created a HUGE problem that completely distracts from all of the other ones that already existed.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

TCSRedhead said:


> That spouse has a CHOICE. They can at any time say that you need to change your behavior and leave if it doesn't change. That leaves both of them with trust intact, without shame and embarrassment that comes from choosing to engage in an affair.
> 
> I think that's terribly unfair to blame the other person for what WE chose. I can tell you that my husband does feel badly now that he sees how miserable I was and wants to make our marriage good again.
> 
> The problem is that by making the choice to go to another man and lay out all my problems, text some pretty sexual content and pictures, I now created a HUGE problem that completely distracts from all of the other ones that already existed.


No matter what, I would sure agree that regardless of the status of the marriage prior to cheating, it will only get that much worse as a result of the cheating, and make it that much more difficult to fix!

C


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## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

Badblood said:


> The typical feel-good response. We're all victims, right?


Lol! You obviously don't know me! I'm the last person to ever claim I'm a victim!  And I despise that so many people do so easily.

We've become a society of victims....it surely can't be our own fault now, can it????

Own it. I do.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Badblood said:


> The proof is in life. Almost all marriages have problems, but relatively few marriage partners resort to cheating to alleviate those problems.


What percentage of marriage partners cheat? What does relatively few mean?

Are you counting EAs, PAs, near misses?

Remember, 67% of internet statistics are made up


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Yes, Waz, we all know how saintly you are, and how your advice is always soooo positive, while I'm the mean guy. I can live with that. I can also live with the effects of my words, if posters are hurt by them then the hurt is also in themselves, because I've never called anybody names, nor attempted to force my opinion on anybody. Do you understand the term, "debate?"


But I reckon everyone who comes here is hurting one way or another.

My joining in here is not to attack you. It is to remind everyone that we are dealing with real human beings with real feelings and pain.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Badblood said:


> The proof is in life. Almost all marriages have problems, but relatively few marriage partners resort to cheating to alleviate those problems.


I'd like to see the proof of that, given the percentage of people who have cheated, and the percentage of marriages that end in divorce...

C


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

TCSRedhead said:


> That spouse has a CHOICE. They can at any time say that you need to change your behavior and leave if it doesn't change. That leaves both of them with trust intact, without shame and embarrassment that comes from choosing to engage in an affair.
> 
> I think that's terribly unfair to blame the other person for what WE chose. I can tell you that my husband does feel badly now that he sees how miserable I was and wants to make our marriage good again.
> 
> The problem is that by making the choice to go to another man and lay out all my problems, text some pretty sexual content and pictures, I now created a HUGE problem that completely distracts from all of the other ones that already existed.


Hi TCS...I basically agree with this, with one caveat. In my case I knew life was tough for us, and it was a result of deliberate decisions we had taken. What I didn't realise was how hard my wife found it, because of communication issues in the relationship. We didn't understand that disconnect in our communications.

We also didn't know a lot about women's sexuality and the hormonal changes that happen in late 20s to women.

So the choices we made were influenced by these factors, that we didn't understand. Our choices were not fully informed.

I think the first thing I wrote in this thread was that my wife's affair was her choice. BB and I agree about that.

And anyone who's experienced infidelity gets the damage it does....so I hear you.

If you reconcile, you will find yourself working backwards from what you did to the underlying issues that led up to your bad choice, and it will be painful, but in the end you can get through. Sometimes.

And the reason I bang this drum is that for me, reconciliation had to deal with the underlying issues as well as the affair, and when you do you can reach a whole new plateau of closeness. Blame becomes irrelevant. 

You, and my wife, made bad choices. I don't think that automatically makes you irredeemably evil.


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Badblood said:


> The proof is in life. Almost all marriages have problems, but relatively few marriage partners resort to cheating to alleviate those problems.


I'd love to see where to get reliable statistics.
Oh Well.... it's not possible to get them.

My gut teels me the reality is exactly the opposite. I think the vast majority of affairs go undetected. I also think most affairs happenes at any time, regardless the "happyness status" of the marraige.

It's all about human beings propensity to immediate self gratification over integrity, honesty, responsability... you name it.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Acabado said:


> I'd love to see where to get reliable statistics.
> Oh Well.... it's not possible to get them.
> 
> My gut teels me the reality is exactly the opposite. I think the vast majority of affairs go undetected. I also think most affairs happenes at any time, regardless the "happyness status" of the marraige.
> ...


This is my feeling as well...and it also depends what you classify as an affair. EAs broaden the net a lot. With a PA you make a decision to be physical. With an EA you just find you suddenly have these feelings.


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

Badblood said:


> The choice to cheat is just one of the constants. the other one is that the WS will ALWAYS have tons of excuses or "reasons", why they chose to cheat. One follows the other. Let me ask the posters here on TAM this question. How many times have you seen a WS who made NO excuses? One who never mentioned anything except their own issues? Think hard about it, because they are fewer than hen's teeth. Can'tsitstill and Pidge are two of the very best.


While I appreciate the sentiment, I don't want any accolades for being a "good" WS. I would rather I had my integrity back. One of the reasons I normally stay out of CWI is because I feel like a hypocrite. Who am I to give anyone advice?


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> While I appreciate the sentiment, I don't want any accolades for being a "good" WS. I would rather I had my integrity back. One of the reasons I normally stay out of CWI is because I feel like a hypocrite. Who am I to give anyone advice?


You're someone who has been there. Your experience can help others.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> While I appreciate the sentiment, I don't want any accolades for being a "good" WS. I would rather I had my integrity back. One of the reasons I normally stay out of CWI is because I feel like a hypocrite. Who am I to give anyone advice?


My Dear: Some of the best advice in the world that could ever be rendered greatly comes from people with experience in a given area, whether it be good, bad, or indifferent.

While it may make you may feel somewhat hypocritical, you are, in no way, deemed to be one!


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> How wonderful it must be to be free to treat one's spouse like dog crap for years and still try to occupy the moral high ground if they turn elsewhere for the companionship and support you vowed to provide. If I persistently ignored my wife's needs, I'd be at least as guilty as she if she finally decided to have an affair.


I must disagree.

In such a scenario, while I'd agree you bear your share of responsibility for the state of the marriage, her choice to cheat is all on her.

To illustrate the point, let's say your wife scheduled an event that requires you to rush home from work one evening. To get home on time, you decide to blow through a stop sign. You get a ticket. By your logic, because she is at least partly responsible for your rushed state of mind, she is also responsible for your personal choice to blow through the stop sign. She wasn't in the car, she didn't egg you on to run the sign, she didn't push your foot down on the accelerator, but it's somehow her fault.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## pidge70 (Jan 17, 2011)

arbitrator said:


> My Dear: Some of the best advice in the world that could ever be rendered greatly comes from people with experience in a given area, whether it be good, bad, or indifferent.
> 
> While it may make you may feel somewhat hypocritical, you are, in no way, deemed to be one!


Thanks arb! You are such a sweetheart! I value your friendship and I am grateful for all your thoughts and prayers for Joe and I.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Wazza said:


> This is my feeling as well...and it also depends what you classify as an affair. EAs broaden the net a lot. With a PA you make a decision to be physical. With an EA you just find you suddenly have these feelings.


Realization of the emotions is one thing. Sharing the types of information or have the types of conversations normally reserved for a spouse? That's a choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

pidge70 said:


> Thanks arb! You are such a sweetheart! I value your friendship and I am grateful for all your thoughts and prayers for Joe and I.


Well, at least from me, y'all don't even have to ask for it! It's just something that comes as being largely automatic!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Grayson said:


> Realization of the emotions is one thing. Sharing the types of information or have the types of conversations normally reserved for a spouse? That's a choice.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


...which would take us into defining an EA. What is the boundary?

Let's not go there it would be a theadjack. My real point was, gut feel I reckon most marriages have a brush with infidelity. The wider your definition of EA, the higher the percentage of marriages that have brushed.

P.S. to be clear I agree with you that choice plays a part in EAs. Even if you didn't realised it was coming, you still choose whether or not to pull back.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

The only excuse my wife gave was she said she didnt think I loved her.I offered MC a few times.
When we needed to talk something out she would leave.
Sex? It was rare and she didnt get into it much.
Not many years ago she was a horndog,I was happy and did whatever she wanted.
The one thing she really did was re-write our history.One MC would ask her quite a few times when thing went sour,her answers were one year after we marrie(no way),then 5,10 and fifteen.
I shut down and gave up,figured it is what it is.
She did blame me for everything though,she told me that a few times that I was full of faults and she had none,said this to our MC also.
She had plenty of choices and she decided to hurt me like I've never been hurt.
Eight months into R and she wants it bad,I'm the one struggling to stay now.At least she owns it and knows she did this,not me.
I wont accept I had any part in her EA that is tearing us apart
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Grayson said:


> I must disagree.
> 
> In such a scenario, while I'd agree you bear your share of responsibility for the state of the marriage, her choice to cheat is all on her.
> 
> ...


If the spouses were mature, I would hope the wife would be willing to admit, "Gosh, I'm very sorry I created a situation where you felt so rushed you decided to ignore a stop sign. I wouldn't have made that choice, but I also didn't realize how difficult my scheduling was on you for the event."


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Acorn said:


> If the spouses were mature, I would hope the wife would be willing to admit, "Gosh, I'm very sorry I created a situation where you felt so rushed you decided to ignore a stop sign. I wouldn't have made that choice, but I also didn't realize how difficult my scheduling was on you for the event."


To the point that the wife bears at least some degree of responsibility for contributing to the rushed mindset, I agree. However, that does not make her responsible for the husband's choice to run the stop sign. He had other options available: try to arrange to leave earlier, work with his wife to reschedule if possible, just plain say, "Sorry, that's just not doable. I can't make I by that time." Or, as in the illustration, break the law and be prepared to face the consequences of doing so.

Bringing the illustration back around to the topic at hand, a WS, when faced with a bad marriage has a myriad of choices. They can try to work on the problems. They can separate/divorce if resolving the problems doesn't happen. They can grit their teeth and endure unhappily. Or, they can cheat. All of those are choices, and no one promised that they're easy or convenient. That doesn't make the cheating any less of a choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> How wonderful it must be to be free to treat one's spouse like dog crap for years and still try to occupy the moral high ground if they turn elsewhere for the companionship and support you vowed to provide. If I persistently ignored my wife's needs, I'd be at least as guilty as she if she finally decided to have an affair.


Only you know how you treat your wife, so is this likely?


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acorn said:


> So, I'll ask again...
> 
> If we want this: "Honey, I admit I chose to demolish the house in hopes that another would magically spring from the wreckage. I'm sorry."
> 
> Is it reasonable to expect this: "Dear, you own the bulldozing, but I admit I chose to ignore you when you asked me to go downstairs and look at the cracks in the foundation."


Acorn, your analogy is false. It should be that the cheater says , "Honey , if you won't repair the foundations, I will have another person come into the home and burn it down" I repeat, Marital problems don't CAUSE cheating. Don't take my word for it, look it up for yourselves. Almost all reputable counselors and infidelity websites say the same thing. It is the cheater's issues that lead to cheating , and can be evident in even fairly good marriages. We have just as many WS's come here and say that they love their spouses and that their marriage are good, but they cheated anyway. Sometimes it's re-connecting with a past lover, sometimes it's a ONS, but they all have one FACT in common, the Character flaw in the cheater's mind.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Here's my (probably poor) analogy...

I get paid, and go down to the local dive bar with a wad of $20's in my pocket. Get buzzed out of my tree, and start walking home. Wake up a few hours later with a split head, and an empty wallet.

Now, I have every right to not be mugged. And the people who mugged me should be fully prosecuted. But... Was I a dumb-ass for doing that? Would I expect, if I told a reasonable person what I did, that they would say "Oh, I can't believe that happened!"? No, I suspect any decent friend would kick my ass and say I'm lucky I woke up at all.

My point... Yes, it was entirely the choice of the people who mugged me. Nobody forced them to do it, and it was the wrong thing to do. They could have asked me if I could lend them some money, they could get a good paying job... Whatever. They have tons of options that don't involve anything illegal or hurtful to somene else. But it was my decision to put myself in a position that getting mugged was an option, and also my choice to increase my odds of getting mugged through risky behaviour.

And at the same time, even people who don't undertake any risky behaviour get mugged, and even killed by other people. Just wrong place, wrong time, whatever... Sh1t happens in our lives. You do what you can to prevent it from happening, you deal with it when it does happen. Expecting to always be able to understand and explain why? Good luck with that...

C


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

PBear said:


> Here's my (probably poor) analogy...
> 
> I get paid, and go down to the local dive bar with a wad of $20's in my pocket. Get buzzed out of my tree, and start walking home. Wake up a few hours later with a split head, and an empty wallet.
> 
> ...


When I need or want something I dont hurt others to go get it.
I work harder,smarter and longer hours.I dont take something away from someone and give them wounds that will take a long time to heal from.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

So,basically a cheater is out to do harm?
Not care about who they'll hurt? Inoccent in the crossfire?
The I want what I want mentallity makes me sick.
I get it with my own sweat,not someone elses.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

calvin said:


> When I need or want something I dont hurt others to go get it.
> I work harder,smarting and longer hours.I dont take something away from someone and give them wounds that will take a long time to heal from.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I fully agree that's the responsible thing to do. I would never advocate stealing from someone else to meet your needs, and I've never advocated cheating as a solution to a marital issue. 

My point comes from my experience, and that of one of my affair partners. She beat her head against a brick wall (her husband) for years trying to resolve their intimacy issues. He just did not see that there was a problem. She told him at one point that if he didn't start taking care of her sexually, she'd find someone who could. The last time she tried to initiate, she tried to sex it up an entire evening. Gave him an unfinished BJ before they went out to a party, and told him he could finish it at the party or when they got home. Whispered in his ear on the way out that she wasn't wearing any underwear. They didn't drink enough that whiskey d1ck was an issue.

They got home, she asked him to come upstairs and unzip her dress. He did that, put on his sweats, and went downstairs to watch ESPN.

That was the last time she tried to initiate. By the end of their marriage, they had gone more than two years without sex. He never brought it up, and she found other outlets for her sexual energy. Yes, she absolutely could have left before doing that. But as I tried to allude in my analogy... If you put people in a position where there's two really uncomfortable options, you can't be too surprised if they choose one that you don't like.

Again, I'm not saying that all or even most of the betrayed spouses in here did anything close to what this woman's husband did to her, or even what my wife did to me. Sometimes, bad things happen to us because someone else made a bad decision. Dwelling on why that bad decision was made isn't going to change the fact that your life has been very negatively impacted.

C


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

PBear said:


> Here's my (probably poor) analogy...
> 
> I get paid, and go down to the local dive bar with a wad of $20's in my pocket. Get buzzed out of my tree, and start walking home. Wake up a few hours later with a split head, and an empty wallet.
> 
> ...


Well, it think the analogy falls apart almost from the start, in that those muggers likely didn't make a vow to you to not mug you. But, lets run with it, for the same of discussion....

While you are indeed responsible for your condition, you are not responsible for their decision to mug you, nor did you "force" them to mug you. In fact, at the risk of sounding overly dramatic, your example here sounds an awful lot like saying a rape victim was "asking for it."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

PBear said:


> I fully agree that's the responsible thing to do. I would never advocate stealing from someone else to meet your needs, and I've never advocated cheating as a solution to a marital issue.
> 
> My point comes from my experience, and that of one of my affair partners. She beat her head against a brick wall (her husband) for years trying to resolve their intimacy issues. He just did not see that there was a problem. She told him at one point that if he didn't start taking care of her sexually, she'd find someone who could. The last time she tried to initiate, she tried to sex it up an entire evening. Gave him an unfinished BJ before they went out to a party, and told him he could finish it at the party or when they got home. Whispered in his ear on the way out that she wasn't wearing any underwear. They didn't drink enough that whiskey d1ck was an issue.
> 
> ...


Her husband was an idiot.

That does not mean that he is to blame for her choice to spread her legs for you. He's to blame for ignoring her. She's to blame for choosing to bump uglies with you (and anyone else she screwed outside of her marriage).

Oh, and...


> Yes, she absolutely *should* have left before doing that.


Fixed that for ya.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Sounds almost like a drive by.
They take a lousy aim at their target,sometimes they get him,sometimes not.
They do wind up taking others out also,the inocent get hurt also because of someones stupid,selfish, foolish actions when they had another choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## livinfree (Sep 7, 2012)

The problems of the past is all too convenient. Especially if the problems were actually simple to resolve.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

PBear said:


> Here's my (probably poor) analogy...
> 
> I get paid, and go down to the local dive bar with a wad of $20's in my pocket. Get buzzed out of my tree, and start walking home. Wake up a few hours later with a split head, and an empty wallet.
> 
> ...


PBear, you analogy isn't even close. Try this, you go down to the Bank and cash a check and come out with a wad of $20's, then YOUR BANKER, robs you at gunpoint. See the difference? It isn't some stranger doing you dirt, it is your most trusted partner, the love of your life, the father/mother of your kids. And THEN they have the crust to blame you? Even if you have made their life miserable, they have so many other , honorable choices. So what kind of person takes the ONLY dishonorable Choice? A dishonorable person.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Grayson said:


> While you are indeed responsible for your condition, you are not responsible for their decision to mug you, nor did you "force" them to mug you.


I like this, I think this is on par with what I'm thinking.

I think if your partner has cheated, or if you get mugged, or whatever other bad thing, you have to take some time to process the fact that you can't control their decision to do what they did and it was entirely their choice.

Once you get past that raw emotion, you can start to take personal responsibility for some of the decisions you made too, try to become a better person, and make sure you don't make the same mistakes again. (Maybe I shouldn't have neglected him for years, maybe I shouldn't have walked down the dark alley with my bankroll hanging out of my pocket, etc.) You aren't trying to give the other person a free pass, but you are trying to take responsibility for your own situation.

I think the natural tendency of some people is just to blame someone and move on without doing any introspection... which just makes it more likely the past will repeat itself.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Badblood said:


> PBear, you analogy isn't even close. Try this, you go down to the Bank and cash a check and come out with a wad of $20's, then YOUR BANKER, robs you at gunpoint. See the difference? It isn't some stranger doing you dirt, it is your most trusted partner, the love of your life, the father/mother of your kids. And THEN they have the crust to blame you? Even if you have made their life miserable, they have so many other , honorable choices. So what kind of person takes the ONLY dishonorable Choice? A dishonorable person.


Great counter-analogy! I was trying to think o something similar, myself, for my earlier reply, but was drawing a blank.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Yeah,what BB said about the one not being a stranger.
This was someone you loved and trusted who did this to you.Youre guard was down and why not?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Badblood said:


> PBear, you analogy isn't even close. Try this, you go down to the Bank and cash a check and come out with a wad of $20's, then YOUR BANKER, robs you at gunpoint. See the difference? It isn't some stranger doing you dirt, it is your most trusted partner, the love of your life, the father/mother of your kids. And THEN they have the crust to blame you? Even if you have made their life miserable, they have so many other , honorable choices. So what kind of person takes the ONLY dishonorable Choice? A dishonorable person.


So wait, PBear walks down a dark alley and gets his huge wad of $20s stolen out of his pocket... the next day he goes down to the bank and the banker holds him up at gunpoint for the next huge wad of $20s... and your focus is making sure other people know these people chose to rob you?

Mine would be to make a mental note to not aimlessly walk around with wads of $20s in seedy neighborhoods where robbery is a daily occurrence!


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

I really appreciate the viewpoints here, but based on the reality that I see, there are mitigating factors that can contribute to an affair. To ignore that fact is being too simplistic about a complex issue.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acorn said:


> So wait, PBear walks down a dark alley and gets his huge wad of $20s stolen out of his pocket... the next day he goes down to the bank and the banker holds him up at gunpoint for the next huge wad of $20s... and your focus is making sure other people know these people chose to rob you?
> 
> Mine would be to make a mental note to not aimlessly walk around with wads of $20s in seedy neighborhoods where robbery is a daily occurrence!


You didn't get it, did you? Cheating isn't something you Expect from the person you trust. Cheating isn't about a stranger but your most intimate partner.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

sinnister said:


> I really appreciate the viewpoints here, but based on the reality that I see, there are mitigating factors that can contribute to an affair. To ignore that fact is being too simplistic about a complex issue.


Facts? Mitigating factors? What marriage vows have you ever read that had , " exceptions ", built in to them? I'ts not "simplistic', to ask your partner to honor their word, is it? In point of fact, integrity is almost always "simplistic", If you make a promise, you keep your promise. I will leave the convoluted excuses, the blame-shifting, the deceit , and the disrespect to the cheaters, they are the experts at it.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

sinnister said:


> I really appreciate the viewpoints here, but based on the reality that I see, there are mitigating factors that can contribute to an affair. To ignore that fact is being too simplistic about a complex issue.


I don't think anyone is ignoring the fact that a multitude of factors, some of which are not 100% the cause of the cheater, may lead them to the point that they choose to cheat. What we're saying is that those factors do not absolve the cheater of 100% responsibility for choosing to cross that line. No one "forces" them to make that decision, to call back to the title of the thread.

Reminds me of a conversation I was part of today. A guy at work was talking about his grandson, and said that the other night, the grandson was about to do something he knew he shouldn't, then looked at his mother and said, "I try to make good choices, but sometimes I don't." then proceeded to do the very thing he knew he wasn't supposed to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Badblood said:


> PBear, you analogy isn't even close. Try this, you go down to the Bank and cash a check and come out with a wad of $20's, then YOUR BANKER, robs you at gunpoint. See the difference? It isn't some stranger doing you dirt, it is your most trusted partner, the love of your life, the father/mother of your kids. And THEN they have the crust to blame you? Even if you have made their life miserable, they have so many other , honorable choices. So what kind of person takes the ONLY dishonorable Choice? A dishonorable person.


And the point sails hopelessly over the members of the audience...

My analogy wasn't intended to say that the muggers did evil things. Or in your case, the banker. Or in real life, the cheating spouse. My analogy was intended to show that there are things that one can do to protect their money (or marriage). And if one doesn't take steps that a reasonable person would take to protect their money (or marriage), then one can hardly complain when the money (or marriage) is taken painfully away from them. God/Karma/the justice system will take care of the mugger/banker/cheating spouse. But can the loyal spouse ALWAYS look in the mirror and say they did everything the could to safeguard their money/marriage?

In my experience, no, they can't. If a buddy of mine came to me and said that his wife cheated on him, and upon further questioning, I found out that he hadn't had sex with her in 2 years (his choice) and had refused to work on the marriage for years before that, my response would be "I'm sorry she did that, but WTF did you think was going to happen?". 

Again, I'm not trying to imply that anyone in this thread (or on this site in general) did something like what my AP's husband did to her. But the world isn't as black and white as some people like to think. Our actions influence other people decisions and actions, whether we like it or not. 

C


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Badblood said:


> You didn't get it, did you? Cheating isn't something you Expect from the person you trust. Cheating isn't about a stranger but your most intimate partner.


Umm, I get it. I've been cheated on. Believe me, I am not trying to belittle your pain.

There's two tables for folks like us. There's one where we all sit around spitting verbal venom about how bad cheaters are in an attempt to repair our shattered self esteem and try to figure out what the heck has happened to us.

There's another less animated table where we accept that cheating does happen in some relationships, and we want to talk about what we can do so it doesn't happen to us in our next relationship.

Just because we are sitting at different tables doesn't mean either one of us is "wrong" or "doesn't get it". We're just in different places.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Grayson said:


> Reminds me of a conversation I was part of today. A guy at work was talking about his grandson, and said that the other night, the grandson was about to do something he knew he shouldn't, then looked at his mother and said, "I try to make good choices, but sometimes I don't." then proceeded to do the very thing he knew he wasn't supposed to.


At least he's honest about it.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

calvin said:


> Yeah,what BB said about the one not being a stranger.
> This was someone you loved and trusted who did this to you.Youre guard was down and why not?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Your guard can never be 100% down without risk 

That was true before the affair, and if you moved to a new relationship it would be true there.

Can't prove it, but that's what I believe. No-one is perfect, everyone is capable of cheating....maybe not including you, but definitely including me!


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Acorn said:


> I like this, I think this is on par with what I'm thinking.
> 
> I think if your partner has cheated, or if you get mugged, or whatever other bad thing, you have to take some time to process the fact that you can't control their decision to do what they did and it was entirely their choice.
> 
> ...


Spot on. 

I guess the reason BB and I spar on this question all the time, is he starts from "Who do I blame?" whereas I start from "How do I avoid a recurrence?"

And to be fair, my story is far longer ago, and his experiences were far worse than mine...there is no way I could have reconciled in his situation, based on what I know.

BB...one day we should meet in person and spar over a few beers....shock, Saint Wazza drinks beer!!!!!


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

PBear said:


> And the point sails hopelessly over the members of the audience...
> 
> My analogy wasn't intended to say that the muggers did evil things. Or in your case, the banker. Or in real life, the cheating spouse. My analogy was intended to show that there are things that one can do to protect their money (or marriage). And if one doesn't take steps that a reasonable person would take to protect their money (or marriage), then one can hardly complain when the money (or marriage) is taken painfully away from them. God/Karma/the justice system will take care of the mugger/banker/cheating spouse. But can the loyal spouse ALWAYS look in the mirror and say they did everything the could to safeguard their money/marriage?
> 
> ...


Talk about missing the point....

I don't think anyone here has remotely suggested that all BS'es are blameless (key words here) *for the state of the marriage*. Both parties bring their share of responsibility for that to the table. I've said it...we've all pretty much said it. However, the blame for cheating rests entirely with the WS. The BS may, as you say, influence the cheater's thought process through their contribution to the state of the marriage, but it's the cheater alone who makes the decision to cross the line. As you yourself said: *other people's* decisions. And, as much as you might not like it to be, that part IS black and white. Cheaters can choose to cheat or not.

Otherwise, if we go back to your analogy, you're saying that it's your fault you were mugged. Not for getting hammered, not for walking home...but for getting mugged.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

If you were 100% sure that your spouse would cheat if you neglected her for years and forced the marriage into a sexless state... and then you chose to neglect her for years and forced the marriage into a sexless state... have you chosen to have her cheat on you?


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Marriage is 50/50,we all know that.
There are all kinds of options out there,MC,seperation and divorce.
I would stay in a sexless or abusive marriage,why would anyone?
When you choose to cheat you hurt others,kids,family and friends.
Cheating is the easy band aid aproach.
I would keep my honor intacted and file.If that does'nt bring them out of it nothing will.
Me and my wife had/have issues.She turned to an old ex hs bf who would have hurt her pretty bad.
She admits what she did was terrible and she did hurt me and the kids.
Looking back she see's the options she had but did'nt pursue,she wished she would have.
When someone chooses to take an AP they are also taking a huge risk.In my case the OM was sweet as pie to her while he was leading other woman on.
The ex OM threatend me and my family after he didnt get what he wanted.
There is no justification for cheating.
Only reasons I could think of are physical abuse,sexually abuse and extreme mental abuse where you are planning on doing away with the marriage anyway and have already left.
Sorry but the devil made me do it doesnt work.
My wife blames her EA on herself and her self only.
She had choices and she knows that know.
She also owns up to her faults in our marriage same as I did.
Whats the success rate for AP's staying together long term? Pretty low I think.
Happyness comes from within,not from someone else.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Acorn said:


> If you were 100% sure that your spouse would cheat if you neglected her for years and forced the marriage into a sexless state... and then you chose to neglect her for years and forced the marriage into a sexless state... have you chosen to have her cheat on you?


My answer comes up “no”. Here is the thing; Nothing I can do or say can have much affect on how you feel about another person. It can affect how you feel about me... but never another person. What you do with those feelings, both toward me and the other guy, is YOUR CHOICE. 

Justifications and excuses come into play retro-actively to support the choices you make so they don’t seem as unsavory as they are. 

My wife held a lot of resentment against me, yet still loved me... Ok, fine. That is a fact. My wife started liking another guy... Ok, fine. Also a fact. She made decisions based on how she felt about either of us. For me, that meant seeing someone who didn’t really like me very much unless she was in a loving mood. For him, it meant seeing someone who was interested in him and wanted him. Everything else is an excuse or justification.

So, get it back down to the basics and you’ll probably see that your wayward treated people, including you, however they felt like treating you. Promises and vows they’ll see as conditional where you’ll never know the conditions they’ll need to ‘void their own words’. The only area of influence you have is how your spouse might see you, and that only affects the relationship between the two of you, never other relationships they have.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Racer said:


> My answer comes up “no”.


That is just amazing to me, but to each his own.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

"My wife forced me to force her to cheat. she cheated because i was always working. BUT, i was always working because she spent all the money."

"My husband forced me to force him to cheat. he cheated because our sex life tanked. BUT, our sex life tanked because he always watched porn."

two can play at this game.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acorn said:


> If you were 100% sure that your spouse would cheat if you neglected her for years and forced the marriage into a sexless state... and then you chose to neglect her for years and forced the marriage into a sexless state... have you chosen to have her cheat on you?


 I say again. The CHOICE to cheat is the responsibility of the cheater, and no conditions can justify it. You HAVE to be able to separate the marital issues from the integrity issue. The ONLY people who take the dishonorable course are dishonorable people. Black and White.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Wazza said:


> Spot on.
> 
> I guess the reason BB and I spar on this question all the time, is he starts from "Who do I blame?" whereas I start from "How do I avoid a recurrence?"
> 
> ...


This isn't about who's to blame, it's about repairing the marriage. If your car has two separate problems, and one problem is the fault of BOTH drivers and one is the fault of only ONE of the drivers, then repairing the problem that is the responsibility of Both drivers won't get the car running. For R to be real, BOTH drivers fix the problem that BOTH of them caused, but the other problem is the WS'S alone and he/she must fix it him/herself.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Waz, listen. I use my situation as my guide. My marriage was very, very, good. My wife was attentive in ALL respects, and in all modesty I was a good husband and lover to her. But that didn't prevent her from cheating, did it? She brought very personal psycho-sexual/abuse issues, into the marriage and didn't inform me about those issues. This is why I'm so sure that the issue to cheat has nothing to do with the marital situation,but is all about the WS character issues. Both of us have read the same posts by WS's and BS's, some will say that the marriage had troubles , some will say that the marriage was good,, some will even say that they don't know the reasons for the cheating. Out of all these variables, the only common factor is the WS and their decision to cheat. Cheating is only in the mind of the cheater and nowhere else.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Badblood said:


> Only you know how you treat your wife, so is this likely?


One doesn't need special insight to treat others as human beings. Apparently outsiders do know how to treat husbands and wives, as evidenced by the numbers of cheaters. If I don't attend to business at work, I'm not forcing my boss to fire me but that would be the only logical consequence of my actions. Same thing in marriage. What's illogical is persistently treating one's mate like crap and yet expecting them to remain a faithful partner. If your boss quit paying you, how long would you continue going to work for him/her? Some people are truly "victims" of adultery. Others are merely reaping the crop they've spent years cultivating.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Marriages arent cars,jobs,muggers or houses.
A marriage is sacred,it takes two to make it work.
I love my wife but she expected me to make her happy all the time,she could have done more and I could have also.
We went through rough times but that didnt give either one of us any excuse to blow everything up and bring others down also.
Infidelity is like carpet bombing to me,a lot of people get destroyed.
Divorce,leave,get out if one is not willing to work on it.
No reason to sneak around,lie and hurt families.
My wifes EA hurt 20 family members on both sides and almost killed someone.
God,get out if its that bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

unbelievable said:


> One doesn't need special insight to treat others as human beings. Apparently outsiders do know how to treat husbands and wives, as evidenced by the numbers of cheaters. If I don't attend to business at work, I'm not forcing my boss to fire me but that would be the only logical consequence of my actions. Same thing in marriage. What's illogical is persistently treating one's mate like crap and yet expecting them to remain a faithful partner. If your boss quit paying you, how long would you continue going to work for him/her? Some people are truly "victims" of adultery. Others are merely reaping the crop they've spent years cultivating.


You appear to proceed from a false assumption (in both cases, really). Just as termination is not the *only* potential outcome of poor job performance (disciplinary action, demotion, transfer to another department, etc...we've got a guy at work who, when I started, had advanced to the top level customer-facing job that we have. He did a lousy job. He was transferred to a non-customer-facing job, where he did lousy, and is now in our entry-level position, hanging by a thread.), so too is infidelity not the *only* potential outcome of problems in a marriage. In fact, I'd wager most people wouldn't consider it to be the consequence of first choice.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Badblood said:


> I say again. The CHOICE to cheat is the responsibility of the cheater, and no conditions can justify it. You HAVE to be able to separate the marital issues from the integrity issue. The ONLY people who take the dishonorable course are dishonorable people. Black and White.


Hopefully you can be objective enough to realize that while cheating is your integrity issue, the other spouse may have their own line in the sand as to what things qualify as integrity issues. 

What if an extended sexless marriage is an integrity issue for the WS? The BS has imposed a sexless marriage (dishonorable), the BS did not do the right thing and divorce (dishonorable), the WS was too weak to divorce (dishonorable), and the WS cheated (dishonorable). Does anyone really have the moral high ground here?

(And just to eliminate the dramatic "so the BS was asking for it?" question - no, the BS was not asking for it, the BS is not at fault for the cheating, but the cheating was entirely preventable with some sensible actions from the BS and the BS would be well served to realize just how much control he has over his own life.)


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> One doesn't need special insight to treat others as human beings. Apparently outsiders do know how to treat husbands and wives, as evidenced by the numbers of cheaters. If I don't attend to business at work, I'm not forcing my boss to fire me but that would be the only logical consequence of my actions. Same thing in marriage. What's illogical is persistently treating one's mate like crap and yet expecting them to remain a faithful partner. If your boss quit paying you, how long would you continue going to work for him/her? Some people are truly "victims" of adultery. Others are merely reaping the crop they've spent years cultivating.


You are apparently one of those people who will not listen to facts. Let me try again. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BELIEVE ME, look it up for yourself. ALMOST all reputable counselors or infidelity websites, will emphatically state that the decision to cheat has nothing....repeat,....nothing to do with marital conditions. Cheating happens in good marriages, bad marriages and indifferent marriages. It is the cheater who cheats and it is the cheater who is to blame. Marital problems are a separate issue.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acorn said:


> Hopefully you can be objective enough to realize that while cheating is your integrity issue, the other spouse may have their own line in the sand as to what things qualify as integrity issues.
> 
> What if an extended sexless marriage is an integrity issue for the WS? The BS has imposed a sexless marriage (dishonorable), the BS did not do the right thing and divorce (dishonorable), the WS was too weak to divorce (dishonorable), and the WS cheated (dishonorable). Does anyone really have the moral high ground here?
> 
> (And just to eliminate the dramatic "so the BS was asking for it?" question - no, the BS was not asking for it, the BS is not at fault for the cheating, but the cheating was entirely preventable with some sensible actions from the BS and the BS would be well served to realize just how much control he has over his own life.)


Acorn, you simply aren't able to separate the issue of cheating from the marital issues, can you? Please, go to Marriage Builders or some other reputable infidelity website and look for yourself. These are two separate issues, repeat, these are two separate issues.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Look. SOME BS's have treated their spouses badly, but others have treated their spouses good, BOTH kinds of BS's get cheated on, so obviously it isn't about how the WS is treated. Re-read Affaircare's posts she is both a WS and a BS and a marriage counselor, and she will admit that the decision to cheat belongs to the cheater only.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Badblood said:


> Acorn, you simply aren't able to separate the issue of cheating from the marital issues, can you? Please, go to Marriage Builders or some other reputable infidelity website and look for yourself. These are two separate issues, repeat, these are two separate issues.


I'm happy to. From the site:



> *How do Affairs Begin?*
> 
> Instead of posting my response to these two letters, I have decided to use their contents to illustrate how affairs begin. R. J. described the essential conditions for an affair quite well. *First, there is usually a dissatisfaction with marriage that stems from the failure to meet an important emotional need.* For R.J., her need is conversation, which is usually missing in marriage when women have affairs. She has a deep and pervasive need to talk to her husband, a need that all the gifts in the world cannot meet.
> 
> R.J.'s husband has demonstrated his care for her in many different ways. *But he doesn't care for her in the way that would deposit the most love units. Because he has not met her need for conversation, she is vulnerable to an affair.*


Your views seem in direct contrast to what the site is saying.


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_Waz, listen. I use my situation as my guide. My marriage was very, very, good. My wife was attentive in ALL respects, and in all modesty I was a good husband and lover to her. But that didn't prevent her from cheating, did it? She brought very personal psycho-sexual/abuse issues, into the marriage and didn't inform me about those issues. This is why I'm so sure that the issue to cheat has nothing to do with the marital situation,but is all about the WS character issues. Both of us have read the same posts by WS's and BS's, some will say that the marriage had troubles , some will say that the marriage was good,, some will even say that they don't know the reasons for the cheating. Out of all these variables, the only common factor is the WS and their decision to cheat. Cheating is only in the mind of the cheater and nowhere else_

Very good point. I believe the majority of cheaters have personality disorders. Could stem from childhood abuse, and maybe there's a genetic component to it. But there is definitely something wrong with the wiring.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

Acorn said:


> (And just to eliminate the dramatic "so the BS was asking for it?" question - no, the BS was not asking for it, the BS is not at fault for the cheating, but the cheating was entirely preventable with some sensible actions from the BS and the BS would be well served to realize just how much control he has over his own life.)


You don't know for a fact that the cheating wouldn't have occured if the BS had behaved differently.

And your last sentence says it all - the BS has control over his own life - not the cheaters life. Hence the OP.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Haven't seen this so I'll just post it.

We can all agree that battering your wife is wrong, correct?
Did the battered spouse ask for it? Did they deserve it?

That was a choice made by the abuser, not because of anything the battered spouse did. The abuser could have walked away.

Think about it.


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## warlock07 (Oct 28, 2011)

unbelievable said:


> One doesn't need special insight to treat others as human beings. Apparently outsiders do know how to treat husbands and wives, as evidenced by the numbers of cheaters. If I don't attend to business at work, I'm not forcing my boss to fire me but that would be the only logical consequence of my actions. Same thing in marriage. What's illogical is persistently treating one's mate like crap and yet expecting them to remain a faithful partner. If your boss quit paying you, how long would you continue going to work for him/her? Some people are truly "victims" of adultery. Others are merely reaping the crop they've spent years cultivating.


A better analogy would be boss quit paying you and you were stealing away from the company and selling the company secrets to the rival...


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

cpacan said:


> You don't know for a fact that the cheating wouldn't have occured if the BS had behaved differently.
> 
> And your last sentence says it all - the BS has control over his own life - not the cheaters life. Hence the OP.


I am advocating that people have more ability to take responsibility for the state of their marriage and the vulnerabilities they introduce upon their spouse than they think.

The OP is claiming that the BS can never ever do anything that relates to a WS's choice to cheat. The OP has a victim mentality where spouses can only sit back and wonder if they've got one of the bad models that will cheat.

I don't buy the notion that human beings are all cheating sleeper cells just waiting to go off. I believe that the better I treat my spouse, the less chance I have of being cheated on. Ultimately, I can't control that choice, but as sure as heck can choose to take actions which minimize the vulnerabilities to affairs in my marriage.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

warlock07 said:


> A better analogy would be boss quit paying you and you were stealing away from the company and selling the company secrets to the rival...


I'm puzzled by your analogy... 

If my boss stopped paying me when I've been a good employee, should he be surprised if I don't show him any loyalty and start selling secrets to his rivals, thereby making the money that I should expect from my boss? I would argue that he shouldn't really be surprised if by his actions, his employees no longer have loyalty to him, and no longer respect the contract they had with him. 

And again, yes the honorable thing to do would be to leave the company and go work directly for the rival.

C


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Haven't seen this so I'll just post it.
> 
> We can all agree that battering your wife is wrong, correct?
> Did the battered spouse ask for it? Did they deserve it?
> ...


You are absolutely right, but what's your point? Does it mean that when my wife has cheated on me, I have a right to abuse her?? :scratchhead:


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> Haven't seen this so I'll just post it.
> 
> We can all agree that battering your wife is wrong, correct?
> Did the battered spouse ask for it? Did they deserve it?
> ...


And there are those in this thread that would tell you that even though the husband battered the wife and abused her, a subsequent decision on her part, in her abused state, to cheat with a man that treated her kindly would have no correlation whatsoever to the abuse.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Acorn said:


> I am advocating that people have more ability to take responsibility for the state of their marriage and the vulnerabilities they introduce upon their spouse than they think.


For the umpteenth time, I haven't seen anyone here disputing the notion that both partners contribute to the state of the marriage.



> The OP is claiming that the BS can never ever do anything that relates to a WS's choice to cheat. The OP has a victim mentality where spouses can only sit back and wonder if they've got one of the bad models that will cheat.


Right here, you state the point we're making, while simultaneously missing it.

The state of the marriage can contribute to the Chester's *CHOICE* to cheat. Even in the worst possible marriage, the WS can choose other options, including extricating themselves from the marriage. Instead, they *choose* to cheat. They are not *"forced"* to do so by anyone, including the BS. Infidelity is not a foregone conclusion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Racer (Sep 24, 2009)

Acorn said:


> That is just amazing to me, but to each his own.


It shouldn’t be. Just flip it in your head. Take my story. My wife kept me in a nearly sexless marriage (<8 times per year). She treated me with disrespect very often. She had multiple OM’s. She’s an SA. This went on for several years.

By all that has happened to our relationship, I’d have every reason in the world to just go out and start dating others like she did.... Hell, I believed I had enough abuse BEFORE discovering her adultery. The difference that I’ve always recognized though: I have a choice. 

Her actions play a huge role in how I see her and value this marriage. Yet when it comes to starting up some new relationship with another woman, that would be entirely my choice to do this. Right and wrong isn’t the argument here... The argument is whether you can push your spouse into another’s arms. I would be doing it for some perceived personal gain I would get from it; Enter selfishness and vindictiveness. The marriage woes are just an excuse so I don’t have to feel so bad about it.

Now where I’d throw you a bone: My wife’s thoughts and ideas about this aren’t even my concern if I should do it. That has to do with respect for my wife. If I truly respected and loved her, it would be part of decision process and a consideration. Because that is substantially damaged, her wishes hold less weight in my decisions.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acorn said:


> I'm happy to. From the site:
> 
> 
> 
> Your views seem in direct contrast to what the site is saying.


This has something to do with the choice to cheat, does it? How?


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acorn said:


> And there are those in this thread that would tell you that even though the husband battered the wife and abused her, a subsequent decision on her part, in her abused state, to cheat with a man that treated her kindly would have no correlation whatsoever to the abuse.


Acorn you seem to have no ability to see any other point of view except your own. Cheating DOES happen in abusive marriages, BUT it also happens in NON-ABUSIVE marriages, how do you explain that? I would really be interested . The BS is NOT responsible for the WS's frame of mind, nor is he/she responsible for their choice to cheat or not. The WS makes that decision. You can treat your spouse like gold and if she wants to cheat, she will do so. You can meet her EN's only so far as your are able to do so, or have the knowledge of them , to do so. If your spouse has emotional/sexual needs or desires that you cannot , for any reason, meet, then she will make one of several choices. End the marriage, work on the issues with or without spousal help, or cheat. The only dishonorable choice is cheating, so that means that the cheater is a dishonorable person. They may even have been honorable BEFORE the cheating, and they may be honorable AFTER the cheating , but while in the affair , they are not, and they chose that path, nobody did it for them. You can blame the BS in an abusive marriage FOR THE ABUSE, but you can't blame him/her for the choice to cheat.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Grayson said:


> For the umpteenth time, I haven't seen anyone here disputing the notion that both partners contribute to the state of the marriage.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apparently ACorn doesnt understand choice or free will.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

cpacan said:


> You are absolutely right, but what's your point? Does it mean that when my wife has cheated on me, I have a right to abuse her?? :scratchhead:


:lol: You gotta back away from this. You aren't thinking too well.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Badblood said:


> Acorn you seem to have no ability to see any other point of view except your own. Cheating DOES happen in abusive marriages, BUT it also happens in NON-ABUSIVE marriages, how do you explain that? I would really be interested . The BS is NOT responsible for the WS's frame of mind, nor is he/she responsible for their choice to cheat or not. The WS makes that decision. You can treat your spouse like gold and if she wants to cheat, she will do so. You can meet her EN's only so far as your are able to do so, or have the knowledge of them , to do so. If your spouse has emotional/sexual needs or desires that you cannot , for any reason, meet, then she will make one of several choices. End the marriage, work on the issues with or without spousal help, or cheat. The only dishonorable choice is cheating, so that means that the cheater is a dishonorable person. They may even have been honorable BEFORE the cheating, and they may be honorable AFTER the cheating , but while in the affair , they are not, and they chose that path, nobody did it for them. You can blame the BS in an abusive marriage FOR THE ABUSE, but you can't blame him/her for the choice to cheat.


And I would argue that you have an inability to see any point other than YOUR own. Whether in this thread, the threesome thread, or virtually any other thread. Your thoughts and the posts that agree with them are the only ones that are "right", and everyone else is wrong. You're not seeking to understand why a cheater might make a bad choice or what you could do in the future to prevent a re-occurance; you just want someone else to blame for the pain you've suffered in the past.

C


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Acorn said:


> And there are those in this thread that would tell you that even though the husband battered the wife and abused her, a subsequent decision on her part, in her abused state, to cheat with a man that treated her kindly would have no correlation whatsoever to the abuse.


It would say the man who took advantage of her state is worse than the original abuser. He emotionally controlled her when she was already suffering.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> :lol: You gotta back away from this. You aren't thinking too well.


Sarcasm end - lesson learned. Your post implied that abuse would force cheating, I was just wondering if you thought the opposite applied as well?


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

PBear said:


> And I would argue that you have an inability to see any point other than YOUR own. Whether in this thread, the threesome thread, or virtually any other thread. Your thoughts and the posts that agree with them are the only ones that are "right", and everyone else is wrong. You're not seeking to understand why a cheater might make a bad choice or what *you could do in the future to prevent a re-occurance*; you just want someone else to blame for the pain you've suffered in the past.
> 
> C


I believe that I really do try to understand the mind of cheaters and their actions to learn from it, but the above bolded... are you serious?? You say that I am the one who's to prevent re-occurrances? How do I do that?

Pre-affair I treated her like a queen for 26 years and there were absolutely no roadblocks in our marriage, even my wife admitted that (exept from rationalizations). We actually had a very good marriage envied by others. But still, she got boared and chose to cheat on me (or should I say "were forced to").

What I get from this thread is that you guys think it was my own fault, and that I am the one who is responsible for "affair-proofing" our marriage for the future?

Wauw. No wonder people cheat then - they don't have to be held responsible for their own actions in any way.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Haven't seen this so I'll just post it.
> 
> We can all agree that battering your wife is wrong, correct?
> Did the battered spouse ask for it? Did they deserve it?
> ...


Love is a decision. Hate is a decision. Happiness is a decision. Sadness is a decision. 

Response is a decision. There are factors which can influence our decisions. Unless someone is mentally ill or handicapped, all of these, including adultery, are a decision.

If someone has a gun to your child and says, "If you don't drive your car into that crowd of pedestrians, I'll shoot your child, you have a decision to make. It's a decision to figure out what is most important to you. There is almost always a decision to be made.

Extreme example? Yes. How did it feel to lose your wife and family? Extremely painful, I bet, even if you wanted to leave.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

When someone chooses an affair over the other choices they have its being selfish.
If the fallout only affected the cheater that would be one thing but they take down many others with them,besides the BS there are the kids,their own family and the inlaws.
This is not a" victimless crime".
My wifes EA almost destroyed our family,my parents treated her like she was one of their own children,it affected my nieces,nephews,sister and then there is her side of the family,her niece and nephew were devistates as were some of her siblings and our friends.
If the marriage is bad do the honorable thing and get out.
No reason to drag a bunch of others down because you made the wrong and selfish choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

cpacan said:


> I believe that I really do try to understand the mind of cheaters and their actions to learn from it, but the above bolded... are you serious?? You say that I am the one who's to prevent re-occurrances? How do I do that?
> 
> Pre-affair I treated her like a queen for 26 years and there were absolutely no roadblocks in our marriage, even my wife admitted that (exept from rationalizations). We actually had a very good marriage envied by others. But still, she got boared and chose to cheat on me (or should I say "were forced to").
> 
> ...


Well, as I posted earlier in here about my affairs. My wife shut down our sex life on her own free will. She wouldn't talk to me about it, she wouldn't attempt to fix it on her own. She left me in the dark to flail about. I was a good husband, and a good father. Even in counseling, when I had reached my breaking point and she knew it, she could not come up with a single thing I could do to fix our issues. She just came up with a list of things that she was going to change. At that point though, I no longer believed that she would change and stay "changed"; I had fallen for that a number of times before.

So what could my wife have done to prevent me from cheating? Worked with me to fix the problems that she knew existed in our marriage, ones that we had discussed in depth and repeatedly. If she wants to be successful in her next relationship, she needs to look carefully at her part in the failure of THIS marriage, and acknowledge that among other things, a marriage has an intimacy component, and that component is just as important to the marriage as fidelity, love, and respect.

For the umpteenth time, I'm not saying that everyone in here was as blatent in disregarding their spouses needs as my affair partner's husband, or even my spouse. Everyone in here might have been perfect angels in their marriage, and entirely blameless. All I'm saying is that in my case, and other cases I'm familiar with, there's decisions made by the BS that strongly influence the actions of the CS.

Could I say that I never would have cheated if my wife would have "woman'ed up" and contributed to our marriage? Well, I went for about 14 years without considering cheating. I weathered the "dry spell" when our kids were young without an issue. It wasn't until the kids were older and in school, our finances were back in shape, and I realized that no matter what our situation or what I did, my wife wasn't coming back to our marriage bed as a wife that I decided enough was enough.

C


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

quote-For the umpteenth time, I'm not saying that everyone in here was as blatent in disregarding their spouses needs as my affair partner's husband, or even my spouse. Everyone in here might have been perfect angels in their marriage, and entirely blameless. All I'm saying is that in my case, and other cases I'm familiar with, there's decisions made by the BS that strongly influence the actions of the CS.

Could I say that I never would have cheated if my wife would have "woman'ed up" and contributed to our marriage? Well, I went for about 14 years without considering cheating. I weathered the "dry spell" when our kids were young without an issue. It wasn't until the kids were older and in school, our finances were back in shape, and I realized that no matter what our situation or what I did, my wife wasn't coming back to our marriage bed as a wife that I decided enough was enough.

C-quote

You're in denial. Sorry.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

2ntnuf said:


> quote-For the umpteenth time, I'm not saying that everyone in here was as blatent in disregarding their spouses needs as my affair partner's husband, or even my spouse. Everyone in here might have been perfect angels in their marriage, and entirely blameless. All I'm saying is that in my case, and other cases I'm familiar with, there's decisions made by the BS that strongly influence the actions of the CS.
> 
> Could I say that I never would have cheated if my wife would have "woman'ed up" and contributed to our marriage? Well, I went for about 14 years without considering cheating. I weathered the "dry spell" when our kids were young without an issue. It wasn't until the kids were older and in school, our finances were back in shape, and I realized that no matter what our situation or what I did, my wife wasn't coming back to our marriage bed as a wife that I decided enough was enough.
> 
> ...


You're welcome to your opinion. But in denial about what? 

C


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

PBear said:


> Well, as I posted earlier in here about my affairs. My wife shut down our sex life on her own free will. She wouldn't talk to me about it, she wouldn't attempt to fix it on her own. She left me in the dark to flail about. I was a good husband, and a good father. Even in counseling, when I had reached my breaking point and she knew it, she could not come up with a single thing I could do to fix our issues. She just came up with a list of things that she was going to change. At that point though, I no longer believed that she would change and stay "changed"; I had fallen for that a number of times before.
> 
> So what could my wife have done to prevent me from cheating? Worked with me to fix the problems that she knew existed in our marriage, ones that we had discussed in depth and repeatedly. If she wants to be successful in her next relationship, she needs to look carefully at her part in the failure of THIS marriage, and acknowledge that among other things, a marriage has an intimacy component, and that component is just as important to the marriage as fidelity, love, and respect.
> 
> ...


It's obvious that the discussion is running in circles. What does your wife say about her shutting down? You do know it was something you did that made her shut down, right?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

cpacan said:


> It's obvious that the discussion is running in circles. What does your wife say about her shutting down? You do know it was something you did that made her shut down, right?


It very well could have been something I did. But even after I told her that we needed to get counselling or it was over, she could not (or would not) share with me what I had done to shut her down. 

C


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

PBear said:


> And I would argue that you have an inability to see any point other than YOUR own. Whether in this thread, the threesome thread, or virtually any other thread. Your thoughts and the posts that agree with them are the only ones that are "right", and everyone else is wrong. You're not seeking to understand why a cheater might make a bad choice or what you could do in the future to prevent a re-occurance; you just want someone else to blame for the pain you've suffered in the past.
> 
> C


There's a really nice view of the forest over there, but I think the trees are getting in your way. So, lets chop a few of them down to see what shows up:

How many times must it be said that we understand that both parties contribute to the state of the marriage? And how many times must it be said that this contribution in no way equates to the BS - even if they've been the most neglectful spouse on the planet - being responsible for the cheater making the personal choice to cheat?

It's not a matter of assigning blame. In my own case, I can readily admit that, as my wife drifted deeper into a depression and nothing I could think of to help had any impact (not even directly asking what I could do to help), I made up one half of a vicious circle...she'd pull away, so I would, so she would, so I would, lather, rinse, repeat. I own my part of that. I, however, had no say in how she chose to deal with that. I like to think that I'm a reasonable person, and as such, my expectation was that, if she felt she'd reached a tipping point, she'd let me know. Instead, she tipped herself over a park bench for another guy, and I had no say in that decision whatsoever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Waz, listen. I use my situation as my guide. My marriage was very, very, good. My wife was attentive in ALL respects, and in all modesty I was a good husband and lover to her. But that didn't prevent her from cheating, did it? She brought very personal psycho-sexual/abuse issues, into the marriage and didn't inform me about those issues. This is why I'm so sure that the issue to cheat has nothing to do with the marital situation,but is all about the WS character issues. Both of us have read the same posts by WS's and BS's, some will say that the marriage had troubles , some will say that the marriage was good,, some will even say that they don't know the reasons for the cheating. Out of all these variables, the only common factor is the WS and their decision to cheat. Cheating is only in the mind of the cheater and nowhere else.


But the decision to cheat isn't a total constant. Compare Tears to Annie Ash to SkaterDad's STBX to BFF's X. All different.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> _Waz, listen. I use my situation as my guide. My marriage was very, very, good. My wife was attentive in ALL respects, and in all modesty I was a good husband and lover to her. But that didn't prevent her from cheating, did it? She brought very personal psycho-sexual/abuse issues, into the marriage and didn't inform me about those issues. This is why I'm so sure that the issue to cheat has nothing to do with the marital situation,but is all about the WS character issues. Both of us have read the same posts by WS's and BS's, some will say that the marriage had troubles , some will say that the marriage was good,, some will even say that they don't know the reasons for the cheating. Out of all these variables, the only common factor is the WS and their decision to cheat. Cheating is only in the mind of the cheater and nowhere else_
> 
> Very good point. I believe the majority of cheaters have personality disorders. Could stem from childhood abuse, and maybe there's a genetic component to it. But there is definitely something wrong with the wiring.


I believe the majority of PEOPLE have personality disorders. We are none of us perfect.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Grayson said:


> For the umpteenth time, I haven't seen anyone here disputing the notion that both partners contribute to the state of the marriage.
> 
> Right here, you state the point we're making, while simultaneously missing it.
> 
> The state of the marriage can contribute to the Chester's *CHOICE* to cheat. Even in the worst possible marriage, the WS can choose other options, including extricating themselves from the marriage. Instead, they *choose* to cheat. They are not *"forced"* to do so by anyone, including the BS. Infidelity is not a foregone conclusion.


"For the umpteenth time", LOL. My son uses that sometimes when he wants me to think he's talking down to me. If only he knew! 

Cheaters choose to cheat. If you are looking to assess blame, the blame for that choice is on them. We've all said this.

I'm trying to challenge you to broaden the discussion and talk about the choice itself. It is usually not instant. If Mrs. Grayson said to you, "Grayson, spend some time with me now, because I'm vulnerable for an affair and I need you", and you blew her off, I would say that you are at least equally responsible for her choosing to cheat. Yes, she would have made the actual choice, but you also made the choice for her. This is where the discussion gets interesting, but it also requires us to consider taking personal responsibility for things we can't directly control. That is threatening to some, but I also think that's life.

You are a shrewd debater and I enjoy these discussions. I'm not trying to change your mind, but I am trying to broaden the discussion. I think there's an interesting fine line there that is absolutely not black and while. That's the discussion I'm interested in. If you aren't, that's ok too. I'll bow out of your posts unless you want to continue.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Racer said:


> It shouldn’t be. Just flip it in your head. Take my story. My wife kept me in a nearly sexless marriage (<8 times per year). She treated me with disrespect very often. She had multiple OM’s. She’s an SA. This went on for several years.
> 
> By all that has happened to our relationship, I’d have every reason in the world to just go out and start dating others like she did.... Hell, I believed I had enough abuse BEFORE discovering her adultery. The difference that I’ve always recognized though: I have a choice.
> 
> ...


She is very lucky to have you still with her. I hope things work out for you. Hang in there.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Badblood said:


> This has something to do with the choice to cheat, does it? How?


To me, I would say that I spent 4 years choosing Mrs. Acorn as my wife. Her actions and our state of the relationship over the years had a lot, if not all, to do with my decision to utter the words "Will you marry me?".

You are making the point that my decision to propose has nothing to do with the courtship, which while technically correct, is a very simplistic analysis.

I chose to propose that day because rings were on sale. By my choice to propose goes much much deeper.

I'm trying to dig deeper.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Acorn said:


> "For the umpteenth time", LOL. My son uses that sometimes when he wants me to think he's talking down to me. If only he knew!
> 
> Cheaters choose to cheat. If you are looking to assess blame, the blame for that choice is on them. We've all said this.
> 
> I'm trying to challenge you to broaden the discussion and talk about the choice itself. It is usually not instant. If Mrs. Grayson said to you, "Grayson, spend some time with me now, because I'm vulnerable for an affair and I need you", and you blew her off, I would say that you are at least equally responsible for her choosing to cheat. Yes, she would have made the actual choice, but you also made the choice for her. This is where the discussion gets interesting, but it also requires us to consider taking personal responsibility for things we can't directly control. That is threatening to some, but I also think that's life.


Good point. My old AP told her husband that if he didn't start working at meeting her sexual needs, he shouldn't be surprised if she started looking outside the marriage. If that wasn't a wake up call to take some action, I don't know what is. He didn't step up to the plate, at some point after that she stopped initiating, and they went for more than two years without sex. 

I've never stated anything other than it was my decision to cheat, and my decision alone. Not my affair partners, not my wife, nobody else. It was a dishonorable decision, a bad decision, a hurtful one. I've never denied any of that. 

But... I'll also state that at least in my case and in the case of my AP, there were things that our spouses could have done to at the very least, significantly reduced the likelihood of us cheating by meeting our needs at home. And these things were things that a "reasonable" spouse would have done. We weren't asking for wild monkey sex three times a day; in my case, a reasonable effort once a week would have sufficed.

C


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

PBear said:


> Good point. My old AP told her husband that if he didn't start working at meeting her sexual needs, he shouldn't be surprised if she started looking outside the marriage. If that wasn't a wake up call to take some action, I don't know what is. He didn't step up to the plate, at some point after that she stopped initiating, and they went for more than two years without sex.
> 
> I've never stated anything other than it was my decision to cheat, and my decision alone. Not my affair partners, not my wife, nobody else. It was a dishonorable decision, a bad decision, a hurtful one. I've never denied any of that.
> 
> ...


PBear, I don't hate you, but.... I hate the buts. Why is it that so many people struggle so hard to say "i did this, I am sorry for that - period!"

Let their partner say "i was responsible for the sexless marriage - period!"

Why does there have to be all these buts?


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Badblood said:


> Acorn you seem to have no ability to see any other point of view except your own.


BB, I am understanding that you think things are very black and white. There's a penis, a vagina, and someone chooses to thrust. Your view, in all its simplicity, is absolutely right.

Life is more complicated than that. We don't just end up with our genitals near one person, our partner, and then near another, our AP. Stuff happens in the middle.

If you are going 120MPH on the high way, the cop chooses to pull you over. You can argue all you want that it's his choice, and you would be, in your very narrow view, absolutely correct. You win. 

Some people will eventually expand their view a bit and wonder if they have any responsibility for the cop pulling them over. Yeah, sometimes the cop is just having a bad day, but more likely, the 120MPH thing probably is going to be more responsible for the choice than anything else.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Acorn said:


> I'm trying to challenge you to broaden the discussion and talk about the choice itself. It is usually not instant. If Mrs. Grayson said to you, "Grayson, spend some time with me now, because I'm vulnerable for an affair and I need you", and you blew her off, I would say that you are at least equally responsible for her choosing to cheat. Yes, she would have made the actual choice, but you also made the choice for her. This is where the discussion gets interesting, but it also requires us to consider taking personal responsibility for things we can't directly control. That is threatening to some, but I also think that's life.


You make my point while trying to counter it. In such a scenario, I'm responsible for being a jerk and blowing her off (and, for the sake of discussion, we'll assume a conscious dismissal action on my part), hub she's still the one who chose to cross that line. Because, I'd have to say that someone who says, "I need more attention _or I'm going to have an affair_ is someone who's looking for an excuse to do so already. She's not saying, "I need more attention or we need counseling." She's no saying, "I need more attention or I'm going to leave/separate/divorce you." Her first instinct, apparently, is to cheat and announce her intent to do so. So, my response, if I wasn't willing to meet her needs under the ultimatum you describe, would be akin to, "You can't have an affair if we're not married. If you're that unhappy, there's the door."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Acorn said:


> BB, I am understanding that you think things are very black and white. There's a penis, a vagina, and someone chooses to thrust. Your view, in all its simplicity, is absolutely right.
> 
> Life is more complicated than that. We don't just end up with our genitals near one person, our partner, and then near another, our AP. Stuff happens in the middle.
> 
> ...


Here's the thing, though...the cheater's not the cop...the cheater's the speeder!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Grayson said:


> Here's the thing, though...the cheater's not the cop...the cheater's the speeder!


True. 

Let's play nice and let them both make choices!


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Grayson said:


> You make my point while trying to counter it. In such a scenario, I'm responsible for being a jerk and blowing her off (and, for the sake of discussion, we'll assume a conscious dismissal action on my part), hub she's still the one who chose to cross that line.


Hmmm... maybe I'm seeing your point a bit.

So, I'm guessing now you'd be comfortable saying something to the effect of, "She was the one that cheated, not me, but I did blow her off and I've come to realize I'm responsible for a lot of things too. If I hadn't blown her off, she may not have felt the need to cheat?"

In other words, you recognize the cause/effect of the neglect and cheating in your marriage, but you also realize that one did not necessarily have to lead to the other.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Acorn said:


> Hmmm... maybe I'm seeing your point a bit.
> 
> So, I'm guessing now you'd be comfortable saying something to the effect of, "She was the one that cheated, not me, but I did blow her off and I've come to realize I'm responsible for a lot of things too. If I hadn't blown her off, she may not have felt the need to cheat?"


Perhaps I'm parsing words just a bit too carefully, but going by this statement, I'm not sure I'd go _quite_ so far as to agree with that statement. The reason being (as I mentioned in the portion of my reply left unquoted), if she were to come to me and make the statement provided in your example, I'm inclined to believe she's already chosen to cheat, and is looking for her self-justification to do so. In such a scenario, I'm basically set up to fail. Whatever I do is either not enough or too much or just the wrong type of attention. The idea that she's going to cheat is not just already planted in her mind, but being cultivated. For my money, someone whose first instinct is not to remove him-/herself from the situation or work to resolve it, but to cheat has already made that mental leap an is unlikely to change their course, regardless of what their spouse might do.

Let's take a look at PBear's OW for a moment. Let's take PBear at his second-hand word that the OW's husband was told, "Give me what I need, or I'll get it elsewhere." Take for granted, for a moment that he's a grade-A d-bag. In his shoes, my interpretation would be that, if she reaches her breaking point, she'd divorce, not that she'd jump anyone who looked her way.



> In other words, you recognize the cause/effect of the neglect and cheating in your marriage, but you also realize that one did not necessarily have to lead to the other.


This, I might agree with, because it sounds pretty muck like what I've been saying: both spouses are responsible for the state of the marriage. However, a partner who chooses to cheat as a means of dealing with it is the 100% owner of the cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Meant to reply to this one earlier....



PBear said:


> I'm puzzled by your analogy...
> 
> If my boss stopped paying me when I've been a good employee, should he be surprised if I don't show him any loyalty and start selling secrets to his rivals, thereby making the money that I should expect from my boss? I would argue that he shouldn't really be surprised if by his actions, his employees no longer have loyalty to him, and no longer respect the contract they had with him.


And I'd argue that, yes...he should be surprised that your immediate leap is not to - as you say in your very next paragraph - leave the company, but instead to commit corporate espionage. Because being a corporate spy is, of course, the natural, everyday reaction to unhappiness in the workplace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

PBear said:


> And I would argue that you have an inability to see any point other than YOUR own. Whether in this thread, the threesome thread, or virtually any other thread. Your thoughts and the posts that agree with them are the only ones that are "right", and everyone else is wrong. You're not seeking to understand why a cheater might make a bad choice or what you could do in the future to prevent a re-occurance; you just want someone else to blame for the pain you've suffered in the past.
> 
> C


PBear, I have never in any post said that my opinion was the only one, You might disagree with me, but your opinion is your own. I have also said in many posts to visit reputable websites or seeking counseling for help. I state my own opinions only and have said as much, on numerous occasions. If you or anyone else can refute it (my opinion) do so. Why don't you look it up for yourself ?


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Grayson said:


> There's a really nice view of the forest over there, but I think the trees are getting in your way. So, lets chop a few of them down to see what shows up:
> 
> How many times must it be said that we understand that both parties contribute to the state of the marriage? And how many times must it be said that this contribution in no way equates to the BS - even if they've been the most neglectful spouse on the planet - being responsible for the cheater making the personal choice to cheat?
> 
> ...


This is a very good post.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Wazza said:


> But the decision to cheat isn't a total constant. Compare Tears to Annie Ash to SkaterDad's STBX to BFF's X. All different.


This is where you're wrong, Waz. The choice to cheat is the ONLY constant, everything ELSE is variable. The motives, the mechanisms, the emotions , the needs/desires can all be the same or different. The CHOICE to cheat is the ONE constant factor in all of these discussions and it belongs soley to the WS.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Wazza said:


> I believe the majority of PEOPLE have personality disorders. We are none of us perfect.


Everybody is perfectly aware of this, Waz.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Badblood said:


> This is where you're wrong, Waz. The choice to cheat is the ONLY constant, everything ELSE is variable. The motives, the mechanisms, the emotions , the needs/desires can all be the same or different. The CHOICE to cheat is the ONE constant factor in all of these discussions and it belongs soley to the WS.


I agree.
Making excuses for ANYTHING not making you happy is crap.
I hate when people say the "system or society" failed me.You failed yourself,own up to it.
Not happy? Then do something about it but you have no right to take others down the path of that much pain.
The "yeah I did it but" excuses piss me off.
Own it and make amends or go away.
Damn near no reason to place the blame somewhere else.
If you own it and work on it you'll get my repect.
No buts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

PBear said:


> Good point. My old AP told her husband that if he didn't start working at meeting her sexual needs, he shouldn't be surprised if she started looking outside the marriage. If that wasn't a wake up call to take some action, I don't know what is. He didn't step up to the plate, at some point after that she stopped initiating, and they went for more than two years without sex.


Sounds to me like she'd already decided to cheat. I notice that - at least as per what you say she told you - she didn't tell him that if he didn't meet her needs, she was out the proverbial door. No, instead, she told him that she'd go looking for some strange. And, given how well she knew him, she likely expected him to continue his normal behavior, thus justifying her cheating to herself. "I warned him. He didn't change. So, I have his permission."



> I've never stated anything other than it was my decision to cheat, and my decision alone. Not my affair partners, not my wife, nobody else. It was a dishonorable decision, a bad decision, a hurtful one. I've never denied any of that.
> 
> But... I'll also state that at least in my case and in the case of my AP, there were things that our spouses could have done to at the very least, significantly reduced the likelihood of us cheating by meeting our needs at home. And these things were things that a "reasonable" spouse would have done. We weren't asking for wild monkey sex three times a day; in my case, a reasonable effort once a week would have sufficed.


And yet you stayed. By your continued presence, you as much as told her, "Where we're at right now works for me." Instead of ending the bad situation, you chose to make it worse. After decrying her lack of positive action, you felt justified in deciding that two wrongs made a right, if I'm understanding correctly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## maincourse99 (Aug 15, 2012)

_I believe the majority of PEOPLE have personality disorders. We are none of us perfect.

_
A personality disorder is different from imperfection. They are diagnosable conditions. Of course we're all imperfect, that's obvious. You're entitled to your beliefs, but maybe you should educate yourself on what personality disorders are, such as narcissistic, borderline and histrionic. Those are what I was referring to.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Badblood said:


> This is where you're wrong, Waz. The choice to cheat is the ONLY constant, everything ELSE is variable. The motives, the mechanisms, the emotions , the needs/desires can all be the same or different. The CHOICE to cheat is the ONE constant factor in all of these discussions and it belongs soley to the WS.





calvin said:


> I agree.
> Making excuses for ANYTHING not making you happy is crap.
> I hate when people say the "system or society" failed me.You failed yourself,own up to it.
> Not happy? Then do something about it but you have no right to take others down the path of that much pain.
> ...


BadBlood, the constant is that a decision was made, but the decision AnnieAsh made for example (struggling to end an emotional affair, but doing so) was different from what Tears did (one night stand with a stranger and confessing of her own accord) of BFF's wife (protracted physical infidelity with his best friend over years). 

Calvin, I'm not making excuses for anyone, or denying the need for cheaters to own what they do. I'm interested in how you put a marriage back together again. There's nothing I can do to ease how it hurts right now for you....wish I could. But if you read SkaterDad's thread, you at least have a wife who is willing to attempt reconciliation. He doesn't.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

maincourse99 said:


> _I believe the majority of PEOPLE have personality disorders. We are none of us perfect.
> 
> _
> A personality disorder is different from imperfection. They are diagnosable conditions. Of course we're all imperfect, that's obvious. You're entitled to your beliefs, but maybe you should educate yourself on what personality disorders are, such as narcissistic, borderline and histrionic. Those are what I was referring to.


I don't buy that being "diagnosable" is all that significant. It doesn't make an imperfection more powerful or dangerous, it just means someone put a name to something.

If you want to be scientific, then perhaps you could point to studies that establish a correlation? I took your original post as saying "cheaters have a defect the rest of us don't.

I think they are just people who made a bad choice.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

I listend to all the debates here.
I almost actually thought I could see how someone could be tempted to cheat.
Almost.
Damn near no matter what its just wrong.
Some can try to reason it out all they want.
Its wrong.People get hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

calvin said:


> I listend to all the debates here.
> I almost actually thought I could see how someone could be tempted to cheat.
> Almost.
> Damn near no matter what its just wrong.
> ...


I agree with you. It's wrong. People get hurt. You and I for starters, among many, many others.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Wazza said:


> I agree with you. It's wrong. People get hurt. You and I for starters, among many, many others.


Every Affair has a painful domino affect.
You dont have to be the BS to feel it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

calvin said:


> Every Affair has a painful domino affect.
> You dont have to be the BS to feel it.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Agree.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Wazza said:


> BadBlood, the constant is that a decision was made, but the decision AnnieAsh made for example (struggling to end an emotional affair, but doing so) was different from what Tears did (one night stand with a stranger and confessing of her own accord) of BFF's wife (protracted physical infidelity with his best friend over years).
> 
> Calvin, I'm not making excuses for anyone, or denying the need for cheaters to own what they do. I'm interested in how you put a marriage back together again. There's nothing I can do to ease how it hurts right now for you....wish I could. But if you read SkaterDad's thread, you at least have a wife who is willing to attempt reconciliation. He doesn't.


Waz, the decision to cheat is constant, each of the people you named, KNEW that what they were doing was cheating, BUT they did it anyway, for whatever reasons. I started this thread to emphasize this fact. This thread is SOLELY concerned with that issue. There are others that deal with reconciliation. If that is what you are interested in, my suggestion would be to go to one of them, and I will join you there.


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## Wazza (Jul 23, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Waz, the decision to cheat is constant, each of the people you named, KNEW that what they were doing was cheating, BUT they did it anyway, for whatever reasons. I started this thread to emphasize this fact. This thread is SOLELY concerned with that issue. There are others that deal with reconciliation. If that is what you are interested in, my suggestion would be to go to one of them, and I will join you there.


I believe one of my examples disproves your statement. 

But that's ok...the thread kind of got tedious. I'll take your hint. Later dude.


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Wazza said:


> I believe one of my examples disproves your statement.
> 
> But that's ok...the thread kind of got tedious. I'll take your hint. Later dude.


No, Waz, it proves it, because before there was a choice to end the affair there was a choice to begin it. But that is a very good point in the WS favor, as they chose to have an affair , they can choose to end it and come clean to their BS. Some do , some don't.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

Here’s the problem with half of this thread: why does the “broadening of the conversation” have to stop once at least partial blame for the affair has been passed back to the BS? Why can’t the BS then pass some of that blame back to the WS?

Sexless marriage? Any chance that the WS may actually own more of that problem than they are willing to admit? The sex fell off in my relationship in the month leading up to her betrayal. But I would attribute, at least, a teeny bit of that to my fiancé’s habit of smoking pot after dinner and passing out by 8:30. She also seemed to be getting fatter and b!tchier each day in those weeks. It's almost as if she was forcing me to lose attraction to her so that she could feel better about eventually and “spontaneously” cheating.

Sound immature yet? Well, that's how blame-shifting works.

My favorite excused she used for letting another guy take her to pound town was that I was “always” working. Well, sweetheart, I was always working because you were always “always” complaining that I didn’t contribute enough financially. In a well run business, no one makes 6-figures if they are only working 9 to 5 and taking nothing home with them. Anyway, _my job_ never put me in a position to be away for a week in a hotel filled with middle-aged loser philanderers and skanks.

So if people want to play the blame-shift game, then let’s do this. Otherwise, let’s be adults here and completely own our own goddamned actions.


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

PBear said:


> Good point. My old AP told her husband that if he didn't start working at meeting her sexual needs, he shouldn't be surprised if she started looking outside the marriage. If that wasn't a wake up call to take some action, I don't know what is. He didn't step up to the plate, at some point after that she stopped initiating, and they went for more than two years without sex.


LOL, you really believe that a this woman, who had already compromised her integrity, would be giving you the whole story? Lemme guess, she also probably hinted that he was "like, kinda, sorta abusive this one time" too, right?


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Labcoat said:


> It's almost as if *she was forcing me to lose attraction to her* so that she could feel better about eventually and “spontaneously” cheating.


So, she can force you to lose attraction to her?

You need to change your wording fast, or they'll mistake you for one of us...we'd actually understand what you meant without getting hung up on the word "forced".


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Acorn said:


> So, she can force you to lose attraction to her?
> 
> You need to change your wording fast, or they'll mistake you for one of us...we'd actually understand what you meant without getting hung up on the word "forced".


Given the rest of his post, I figured he chose his words quite deliberately. Sounds like an illustration of the point that, just as a cheater isn't "forced" to cheat, so too was he not "forced" to find her less attractive.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

Grayson said:


> Given the rest of his post, I figured he chose his words quite deliberately. Sounds like an illustration of the point that, just as a cheater isn't "forced" to cheat, so too was he not "forced" to find her less attractive.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Exactly.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Grayson said:


> Given the rest of his post, I figured he chose his words quite deliberately. Sounds like an illustration of the point that, just as a cheater isn't "forced" to cheat, so too was he not "forced" to find her less attractive.


Wait, sometimes when this poster or a WS says they were forced to do something, they actually knew they weren't "forced" but were trying to communicate a deeper message?

Who knew?


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Acorn said:


> Wait, sometimes when this poster or a WS says they were forced to do something, they actually knew they weren't "forced" but were trying to communicate a deeper message?
> 
> Who knew?


I dont equate,lying,sneaking,hurting and fvcking 
with communicating a message.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

calvin said:


> I dont equate,lying,sneaking,hurting and fvcking with communicating a message.


Actually, it sends a very big message, but don't get distracted from the topic.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Acorn said:


> Actually, it sends a very big message, but don't get distracted from the topic.


No youre right.
It sends a big message.
Take the easy way out and others with you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Acorn said:


> Actually, it sends a very big message, but don't get distracted from the topic.


That message being what? "I refuse to take responsibility for my choices and actions, so I blame someone else?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Grayson said:


> That message being what? "I refuse to take responsibility for my choices and actions, so I blame someone else?"


Earlier in this thread, you understood that Labcoat was using the term "forced" to illustrate or convey a different message. 

I have been trying in this thread to get you to extend this understanding to the WS. When Labcoat said it, you were willing to accept that he meant something else, but god forbid a WS say it - she must be lying or full of crap. It seems like a double standard to me, and that you could be missing out on very valuable information, but to each his own.

I'm going to bow out of the thread, but I'll think of you guys when I hear the nightly news say "He was forced to resign", or the sports guy say, "The team was forced to punt." This thread has at least shown me that some guys get really worked up about statements like that.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Acorn said:


> Earlier in this thread, you understood that Labcoat was using the term "forced" to illustrate or convey a different message.


What I understood was that he was intentionally using a word that didn't apply to illustrate the very point that it didn't apply. Unless I misunderstood him both in that original statement and his reply to me, I was correct.



> I have been trying in this thread to get you to extend this understanding to the WS. When Labcoat said it, you were willing to accept that he meant something else, but god forbid a WS say it - she must be lying or full of crap. It seems like a double standard to me, and that you could be missing out on very valuable information, but to each his own.


See above. It was my understanding/interpretation of his use of the term that it truly didn't apply and was invalid. Likewise, when a WS uses that same term, it's a load of caca del toro.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly here, your goal is to get people to "broaden their minds" to accept incorrectly applied terms so people can blame shift? Cool. Can I try? Because we had a cold snap last week, I was forced to burn down my neighbor's house so I could be warm.

Am I getting the hang of it?



> I'm going to bow out of the thread, but I'll think of you guys when I hear the nightly news say "He was forced to resign", or the sports guy say, "The team was forced to punt." This thread has at least shown me that some guys get really worked up about statements like that.


Isn't this the third time you've bowed out of the thread now? "Forced to resign" generally implies a binary situation: resign or be fired, with te end result being the same...loss of employment. If there's a problem in the marriage, as has been pointed out many times in this thread and others, there isn't such a binary situation. "Forced to punt?" Can't help you. Hate football. Don't watch it. Wish it would disappear from the face of the Earth. From the context, I infer that I means it's the only workable option with an outcome that would be beneficial to the team. Key word there is "only." Again, not so when there are problems in a marriage.

So, the point remains...a WS is not "forced" to cheat, "compelled" to cheat, "coerced" into cheating, or any other synonym. They have multiple options, none of which are promised to be easy. They consciously elect to avail themselves of the option to cheat. No "extension of understanding" will change these simple facts.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acorn said:


> Actually, it sends a very big message, but don't get distracted from the topic.


Acorn, Calvin has as much right to express his opinion, as you do, and interpret the thread is whichever way he wants. You are NOT the monitor of this thread, are you? Is this another example of your tolerance?


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Acorn, Calvin has as much right to express his opinion, as you do, and interpret the thread is whichever way he wants. You are NOT the monitor of this thread, are you? Is this another example of your tolerance?


Its not my thread.
BB has let everyone have their say.
Disagrements are healthy no matter what anyones view is.For me, I can actually almost see why someone might cheat....almost.
There is something to say for character but not pride.
Good character is a choice also,so is pride.
Being proud of a job well done is a good thing.
Having pride leads to entitlement mentality.
You justsify you deserve something or someone.
You've "earned" it because of your "pain and suffering".
I imagine quite a few people were/are in marriages that could be much better.
Sexless,abuse,lazy spouses,angry,and just flat out not compatable.
It happends but they all got together for a reason.
They loved first.Then they vowed to eachother and before a packed church.

Its so complex but also simple in a way.
Youre marriage is broke.You can choose the right tools to work on it,see if it can be fixed.
Sometimes it cant and sometimes you have to call the tow truck.
Its on the WS to choose to sneak,stab,kick you behind your back and go to another that they really think will make them and only them happy.
I said before there are many other victims in a affair.
A WS can atone and become a better person,a more educated,loving,wise,motivated and a great partner who wont do it again.
As for me taking any blame I never will and I know my wife wont allow me to.
I respect her again.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Labcoat said:


> LOL, you really believe that a this woman, who had already compromised her integrity, would be giving you the whole story? Lemme guess, she also probably hinted that he was "like, kinda, sorta abusive this one time" too, right?


No, she never said anything of the sort. And yes, I really truly do believe her. She had no reason to lie to me (I was cheating when I knew her, obviously), and she fully acknowledged her cake-eating actions. And owned the fact that it was entirely her decision to do what she had done.

C


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Acorn,I do like hearing your point of view.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Hello, Calvin's wife here. What kills me and makes it hard to live with myself is this: when we used to fight and have days of me being mad at him I would watch our wedding tape and cry and feel so bad for the fight and think oh I love him so much..The problem is..why in the hell did I brake those wedding vow? This is hard, I want to watch that wedding tape and see our happiness but I freakin ruined it. I broke the vows. It is so hard when you hurt the one that trusts you the most, the one who needs you for comfort when he is hurt. I was wrong wrong wrong. Yes I was fed up with him, wanted a divorce and felt our marriage was helpless but instead of doing a seperation I went and brought another man into our marriage. That just made our problems 100 times worse. Now that I have Calvin and he has changed and I love him more than anything and he's willing to give me this chance..it makes it not only our Pre-A problems to fix but my EA which like I said ruined and makes it so much harder to recover. Do I blame Calvin for my EA..NO. I did try to justify it in my own head by telling myself the marriage is hopeless and already dead. Boy was I wrong. He is a good, loving compassionate man and had I not neglected him and put our kids first all these years he wouldn't have become the angry man I was married to. I believed he didn't love me. Well taking me back after I betrayed him is definately love. I was so wrong, very stupid and very selfish. All of this could have been fixed without me having an EA. I'm just thankful I see this now. I wishh I could help other WS' out there but they really don't listen. They are in their own foggy fantasy world. I have tried but like I said, they gotta figure that out on their own.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

One thing about punting Acorn.
You CAN go for it on the fouth down.
You dont have to punt your marriage.
You come up with a game plan and go for it.
Marriage is 50/50.
Some folks dont realise there on the same team......sad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

btw do you guys wanna know why the wayward blameshifts or tries to justify it...it's because they know deep down how wrong it is and make themselves feel better so they don't feel guilty..it' a way to avoid the truth that they are being totally selfish.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Labcoat said:


> Here’s the problem with half of this thread: why does the “broadening of the conversation” have to stop once at least partial blame for the affair has been passed back to the BS? Why can’t the BS then pass some of that blame back to the WS?
> 
> Sexless marriage? Any chance that the WS may actually own more of that problem than they are willing to admit? The sex fell off in my relationship in the month leading up to her betrayal. But I would attribute, at least, a teeny bit of that to my fiancé’s habit of smoking pot after dinner and passing out by 8:30. She also seemed to be getting fatter and b!tchier each day in those weeks. It's almost as if she was forcing me to lose attraction to her so that she could feel better about eventually and “spontaneously” cheating.
> 
> ...


Yes that's what I mean. Once I realised that Calvin's behavior was actually because of my behavior it all made sense and then the blameshifting stopped. It took me a bit to figure that out buit it's so true. Alot of times someone treats someone badly because that person was doing things to cause them to behave that way..not talking about cheating. Just saying that people need to take a deeper look at themselves and think about how they could have contributed better to the marriage in the f
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

first place
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Badblood (Oct 27, 2011)

Acorn you would be a wise person to listen to CSS and Calvin, of the couples in R, here on TAM, they are among the most thoughtful and enlightened.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Badblood said:


> Acorn you would be a wise person to listen to CSS and Calvin, of the couples in R, here on TAM, they are among the most thoughtful and enlightened.


I dont know about that Bb.
All I know is that its hard and it hurts .
I think we'll make it though.
In a way R to us has ben kinda like a damn autopsy.
Picking,probing and analizing.
We're still searching and we are getting there.
I am proud of CSS though.She owned up to it and that gives us a path foward.
Been more hopefull lately.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SomedayDig (Jul 17, 2012)

I think every wayward spouse blames something other than themselves when they get caught. Just the nature of the beast AND of course, they read it in the handbook 

The night I confronted Regret, she implied we were lacking intimacy. Like Acabado...that lasted about 0.0001 seconds for me and about 10 seconds for her. The fog lifted almost immediately when she realized what she had done.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

calvin said:


> Acorn,I do like hearing your point of view.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I apologize if it appeared I was trying to moderate. I have no problem leaving the thread if I'm thread-jacking, but I admit this topic is very interesting to me.


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Badblood said:


> Acorn you would be a wise person to listen to CSS and Calvin, of the couples in R, here on TAM, they are among the most thoughtful and enlightened.


I've learned a ton on TAM.  I think that's the thing that brings us all back.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

CSS did take that long cold look at herself and start making changes.
To me it seemed like she was entitled to to what ever made her happy and damn everyone else.
I even asked her "what about the kids?" she said it was all about her "happiness".
She's digusted with the things she said and done and she is genuine about her changes and taking 100% ownership for her actions.if she was'nt we would'nt be together now.
Like I said before,her lawyer told her she had no chance at custody or getting the house.
I knew CSS was still in there somewhere deep down,thats why I took a chance.
Its been hard as hell,there was a few times I almost broke it off.
She did bust her ass to do a lot of the work repairing everything and she should.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Acorn said:


> I apologize if it appeared I was trying to moderate. I have no problem leaving the thread if I'm thread-jacking, but I admit this topic is very interesting to me.


I'm always interested in different points of views and I try to keep an open mind.
CSS started reading this thread last night and could'nt stop.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Acorn said:


> I apologize if it appeared I was trying to moderate. I have no problem leaving the thread if I'm thread-jacking, but I admit this topic is very interesting to me.


I think where there's no a meeting of the minds is that there are two connected issues: the state of the marriage and the decision to cheat. The former certainly informs the latter, but there's still a decision to be made to reach the latter and a fair amount of...what's the best term?...self-delusion (not the best...I dunno what is) regarding the former to justify the latter.

I'll go into a bit more detail in your spin-off...what I have in mind seems to fit better there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acorn (Dec 16, 2010)

Grayson said:


> I think where there's no a meeting of the minds is that there are two connected issues: the state of the marriage and the decision to cheat. The former certainly informs the latter, but there's still a decision to be made to reach the latter and a fair amount of...what's the best term?...self-delusion (not the best...I dunno what is) regarding the former to justify the latter.
> 
> I'll go into a bit more detail in your spin-off...what I have in mind seems to fit better there.


Will look forward to it.

One thing I will say is that, when you heard me introduce "forced to resign", you saw a binary situation. I saw a non-binary one that included results of getting fired, demoted, pay cut, or having dirty laundry aired publicly or on record.

I found myself thinking that I didn't think you were right about the binary situation, but letting that detract from your overall message would have been a huge disservice to what you were really communicating to me.

I try to apply that line of thinking to the "forced to cheat" phrase.

In a nutshell, I think when someone says they were forced to cheat, they really weren't forced to cheat, but often times I don't think that's what they were really trying to say.

However, that's not the angle of this thread and I keep fearing I'm hijacking it, so I started the other.


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## CantSitStill (Feb 7, 2012)

Anyone know how long Badblood is banned for?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Acabado (May 13, 2012)

Wait, what happened?


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## DoingLife (Dec 12, 2011)

PBear said:


> As unbelievable said... At the point I chose to cheat, my wife had put me in a situation with a number of really bad options. Separation/divorce with all the financial and emotional impacts to the kids and family... "Putting up" with the situation, with the continued escalation of frustrations, resentments, and tension, followed by having to chose from the same bad list later. Or trying to meet my needs elsewhere while keeping the family together and unaffected.
> 
> I made that choice, and chose poorly. I don't blame anyone for forcing me to cheat, but I do blame my wife (at least partially) for forcing me to make a choice. She had many options up until that point. She KNEW our sex life wasn't satisfactory. She KNEW I was very unhappy with the current situation. Yet she refused to work with me to improve the situation.
> 
> ...


 Wow...this sounds exactly like my marriage...BUT.. my wife decided to try and "trade up" and have an affair... even tried getting me to leave the marriage/home.. After the OM decided he didn't want to take on her and her headaches/baggage she decided to stay. The only reason I stayed was the kids... and six years later I don't regret it. The funny or not so funny thing is, six years later I find someone and now my wife wants to work on the marriage....????? REALLY>?


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Bb banned for how long? Anyone know?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Hope the mods will let him back on.
BB made a lot of damn good points,smart guy,little rough but he told it like it was most of the time
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## C-man (Oct 23, 2012)

My wife has tried to pull the "I was forced to cheat/I was forced to lie" line on me several times. I used to believe her and searched for where I had failed. Eg: Spent too much time being a Dad and not enough time with my wife? Forgot about the couples stuff in the midst of work/parenting/simply getting along? Guilty on all counts. But that doesn't justify cheating.

The reality is, cheating is a choice. An ultra-selfish choice. Lying about it is a choice too. Both are selfish and cowardly ways to deal with a bad situation.

And you will never hear of a case of cheating or lying making the bad situation better.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Yep Cedar,its a choice,no one is pushed into it.
Pushed in that direction? Maybe but there are other paths to take.
My wife never said she had no choice or was forced to go down that path.
Most of the WS here have owned up to it and seem to being working overtime to make the almost impossible ...possible,fixing their marriages.
Quite a few here now,CSS,pidge,EI has stepped it up a lot I feel,SR,tears...there is more.
Sadly there are those who will always put part of what they did on the BS,they dont stay long.
The ones I mentioned are in it for the long haul
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Pbear, 
100 percent with you on this. 

Oddly enough for a converse reason. 

When I have been tempted by opportunity I have partly refrained because my wife has made an effort to please me. 

5 years is a long time. I don't know - its hard to understand anyone else and there situation. I have been really really good to my wife. If she tried to pull the stuff you describe - deep sigh - fvck me over prevention circuit breaker likely would have blown. I am just more frontal when getting jerked around badly.


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## cpacan (Jan 2, 2012)

MEM11363 said:


> Pbear,
> 100 percent with you on this.
> 
> Oddly enough for a converse reason.
> ...


I assume then, that those of you with this opinion accept to be cheated on if you suddenly get sick or enjured and for a period of time are unable to please your wives...?


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

cpacan said:


> I assume then, that those of you with this opinion accept to be cheated on if you suddenly get sick or enjured and for a period of time are unable to please your wives...?


I think that most people understand the difference between "can't" and "won't" by the time they're done elementary school. For example...

Honey, I can't have sex with you because I have cancer.

Or...

Honey, I won't have sex with you. And I won't talk to you about why, or work with you to try to figure out why I don't want sex anymore.

Or course, the opposite also applies...

Honey, I couldn't help myself. She threw herself at me, and I slept with her. I couldn't stop myself.

Or...

She threw herself at me, and I didn't stop myself from sleeping with her.

Again... Cheating is definitely a choice made by the cheating spouse. But it's not a choice made in isolation from other factors, some of which are sometimes influenced by the loyal spouse.

BTW, I also hope BB gets unbanned! 

C


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## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

PBear said:


> No, she never said anything of the sort. And yes, I really truly do believe her. She had no reason to lie to me (I was cheating when I knew her, obviously), and she fully acknowledged her cake-eating actions. And owned the fact that it was entirely her decision to do what she had done.
> 
> C


If she fully acknowledged her "cake eating" then the subject of her husband would have never come up because it would have been immaterial. But it did come up and was more than likely a caricature of reality riddled with the occasional outright lie.

In the emails I recovered between my xWF and her AP she grossly exaggerated the negative aspects of our relationship with diminishing the positive. But it was the outright lies of material fact that gave me the greatest insight into the dysfunctional wayward brain.

She told him that I was always traveling for work. I have traveled exactly once in the 3 years at my company. She told him that I was texting other women constantly. Which would only be true if you included my mother and pregnant sister. She wrote told him we hadn't had sex since their encounter... she wrote this just one day after we had actually had sex. I almost emailed the POS AP over that one.

Point being your AP had every reason to lie to you. There is no honor among thieves and your status as AP to a liar doesn't magically grant you the privileged of her honesty. She was likely lying to herself and felt the need to position herself in the best light to you with her incredible story (meaning in-credible).

But hey I could be totally wrong, her story might be the only one on this board that is not like every other story.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

Hope they let Bb back on soon
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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