# friendship vs. EA where do you draw the line?



## 'CuseGal (Feb 5, 2015)

I would really like to know where people here see the line being drawn between an acceptable friendship between opposite genders and the point at which the friendship becomes an EA.

I've heard the concept of the EA being batted around for a while now, and it struck a chord with me because I had a close friendship with a male coworker a long time ago (I was 23, I'm 45 now) that really upset my (now ex) husband. I saw nothing wrong with it, it was never physical past hugging, we talked a lot about our problems and we went out to eat lunch together sometimes but never just the two of us, there were always other coworkers along. I was having significant marital problems at the time having just found out my husband was messing around on me, and the man in question was in the middle of a divorce because his wife had cheated while he was overseas in military service.

I never considered myself "in love" with the guy and he never suggested taking our relationship to another level. But when my husband found out about our friendship, he FREAKED. Accused me of all sorts of stuff that simply wasn't happening. All the while he was getting BJs from his students in exchange for high grades (he was an adjunct college prof at the time - he got fired when this came to light). He acted like my behavior was worse than his and I was young enough I let him convince me and after that point I never let myself get close to a male coworker again for the rest of our marriage. While he kept right on cheating. It took us close to a decade to finally split up. (Serious co-dependency issues that would make for a whole 'nother post.)

What I don't understand, looking back on it, is where he got off accusing me of having done something worse than what he was doing. I honestly still don't really see that my friendship with the other guy crossed the line. I was hurting, he was hurting, we both needed someone to talk to who understood. I cried on his shoulder a few times, that's as close as we ever got! And the things my husband accused me of were so hurtful - I've never slept with anyone but him - not before our marriage, not during it, and not even since our divorce which was now over 10 years ago (yes celibacy sucks but I don't trust men anymore except as friends).

My mother is the only person I've ever really talked to about those years and she says my husband was probably more upset about the fact that I had shared details of our marital problems with someone else, than about the fact that I had a close male friend. I understand now that he couldn't have been thrilled with the idea that I was telling anyone, male or female, the sordid details of our marriage, but I was young, far from home and family for the first time in my life, and had no one to talk to. How he could blow that up in his mind to the idea that I was cheating on him, in his mind even WORSE than he was cheating on me, I still don't 100% understand. Especially since he knew - had always known - that I've always been a tomboy (still am at 45) and therefore have a lot more guy friends than girl friends. He never had a problem with any of the others, even the ones I was out playing full contact sports with back in our college days. Of course he was obviously playing full contact sports with college girls as well...

So I'd really like to know where the line is - and do people think that I crossed it? Not that I suppose it matters, we've been divorced for over 10 years now because he turned out to be a serial cheater. But it's not a mistake I want to make again if I ever do trust a man enough to get seriously involved again in the future.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

'CuseGal said:


> So I'd really like to know where the line is - and do people think that I crossed it?


 The line is where you "shared details of our marital problems with" a man that was "was in the middle of a divorce because his wife had cheated", and yes you crossed that line.


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## loyallad (Aug 1, 2014)

First off CuseGal you did the right thing D your POSxWH. 

Now to address your question. Yes you crossed the line. Nothing wrong with friends of the opposite sex but you and your friend committed the major no-no. Never and I repeat never share intimate details of your marriage with a friend of the opposite sex. This can and often lead to one or both thinking well I feel sorry for ... and then next thing you know I need to cry on their shoulder for this and then well chemistry or emotions or something cosmic happens and they are no longer "just friends".

The rule of thumb is would you do or say something to this friend of the opposite sex if your spouse was standing there with you? If you are honest then you have your answer. My WW started a friendship with a guy at her work. He would tell her how good she looked and then what a b**ch his W was and then my WW cried about what she thought was wrong in our marriage. Next thing you know he and WW decide they were true "soul mates". (Ugh, typing that still makes me want to vomit) You blurred the lines (no pun intended if you think about the song). You had boundary issues.

Kinda water under bridge considering you and your WxH are D but you asked so I replied. BTW your X was a real dirtbag and for him to go all holier than thou is a crock of s**t.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Under normal circumstances it depends on the situation. There are lists that you can go by if you Google it. The best resource is the book NOT JUST FRIENDS linked to below.

What you did compared to what your husband did is comparing your mouse to his elephant.

Sorry your trust issues have hampered your love life. You should look for a good therapist. Consider one with infidelity AND PTSD experience.


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## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

Group lunches are fine. 1 on 1 with the opposite sex is not. Confiding with a girlfriend is fine. Confiding with another man is not.


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## Devastated an lost (Oct 29, 2014)

Although I don't think you should have that kind of friendship with the opposite sex if you're married. Someone who cheats thinks that If given the chance. That's what anyone would do, Because that's how they think. He was thinking about what he would've done in a situation like that. My H done me the same way. Liars think everybody lies & Cheaters think anybody would cheat if given the chance.


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Devastated and Lost has a good point, as a cheater himself, he probably knew what he would be trying for if he were in the male co-worker's position.

With that said, yes, you definitely crossed the line into EA territory. I actually had the exact same scenario play out between myself and a female co-worker of mine a number of years ago. She and I were fantastic friends, felt comfortable discussing absolutely anything (including details of our relationships, intimacy as well) often did lunch together with and without other co-workers, even some other activities together with a 3rd male co-worker who was mutually a good friend of ours. With that said, she and I never ever discussed any romantic interests, certainly never crossed any PA type boundaries, and speaking for myself, I know I never even had an interest in her in that way either. Therefore, even though my wife was enormously uncomfortable with it and made that very clear, I didn't think I was doing anything wrong at all.

But the reality is that I was, and you did too. I guess you could view the "EA Line" as being pretty wide, because it could have gone further and it still would have been an EA. Like if you and he had discussed what it might be like if you both were romantically involved, expressions of feelings about each other, etc.

As for him comparing his cheating to yours... No way. Not comparable. I could understand his fear though, him not being sure if he could trust that you are telling the truth, because an EA, even a mild EA like yours, can EASILY tip-toe across that line to a full on PA in the blink of an eye without creating much more evidence, so it would be tough for him to know for sure or trust you. But no, it's not at all as bad as his full blown cheating for years. (Haha, no pun intended, "full blown")


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

I think the only exception to this rule is if the friend of the opposite sex is homosexual. I would still possibly feel strange/ odd with it, but it wouldn't bother me as much if the opposite gender friend was dispositioned such that a love interest was not possible due to orientation. I still don't think intimates should be discussed even in that situation. That is something reserved for the couple solely.

But this is only my personal viewpoint.

I also agree with the others that you crossed a boundary, but your's was not as heinous of a violations as his was.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

I do not think you crossed the line.

Two people wounded by their cheating spouses gravitated together and sometimes had lunches as part of a larger group.

Whilst your husband was doing something that in some jurisdictions would be considered as rape or at the least, sexual assaults. (Person in authority coercing young, impressionable females to perform sex acts on him.)

Has your ex been diagnosed as having mental health issues? Sounds like a personality disorder, to be honest.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Whilst your husband was doing something that in some jurisdictions would be considered as rape or at the least, sexual assaults. (Person in authority coercing young, impressionable females to perform sex acts on him.)


Please don't always assume the negative. He may have in fact been the recipient of these offers unprovoked. Doesn't make him any less culpable but doesn't make him a criminal or predator. We have all been in school and heard the rumors of the professor that was willing to date or interact with students in exchange they got better grades. Once those rumors get out, it may have not been his actions that started/ incited such things. Many young students are more than willing to offer to trade a few "favors" for a passing grade.


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## 'CuseGal (Feb 5, 2015)

cdbaker - first of all, I love your tag line - especially since I'm the same way!

I get it from the point of view of 45 years old. Believe me I do. I've heard all about not sharing details of your marriage with others esp. opposite sex.

At 23 I didn't get that. He was my first, last, and only. I wasn't allowed to date in high school (very strict upbringing). No boyfriends before him (I met him my sophomore year in college). I was his 4th or 5th girlfriend. At least 2 of them had cheated on him (he had been engaged to one of them so I know that hurt like hell). So I understand the trust issues. Now. I didn't then because I'd never been hurt before and I was very naive about bad relationships when I was younger. Happily married parents, grandparents, etc. Never would have believed divorce would hit our family not only once but twice in my generation... I didn't really understand that cheaters existed. Maybe if we'd had cable TV but we weren't even allowed to watch soap operas...At the time, the very idea that my co-worker might have wanted more than friendship would never have occurred to me! Although looking back I wonder why I never made the assumption that if my husband could do it surely other men could as well...


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

OK I will probably get hammered for my opening statement but I stand by it (experience dictated over time).

In general (and I repeat in general and there are exceptions), OSF's for married people don't usually work out. Sexual tension enters the friendship unless one is gay. I have seen this time and time again. Yes it is possible to have OSF's but there will always be some sexual undertones especially with the males when strong friendships are being created. Crushes develop, dependencies develop and intimacy is taken up a notch when discussing and confiding marital, relationship or sexual problems. Just saying what I have experienced through time.

So that is the first thing.

Second, if you devote emotional energy and/or time to an OSF when your other half is in need of it, that is the first step towards an EA.

Also, as said before, if you cannot say what you say to an OSF when your other half is present than that too is crossing the line.

So I would say yes, you did cross the line and had your husband not been cheating at the time, this could have led to valid concerns from him and problems down the line.


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## 'CuseGal (Feb 5, 2015)

There was definitely a pattern of behavior. The college students were the first (and he got fired when it came out, as I mentioned). His next job he managed to keep for 2 years and then he and another male co-worker got fired for sexual harassment of female colleagues. He's also one of those guys who will harass waitresses, retail clerks, etc while they are waiting on him. He never seems to get it that they might not welcome his advances - he's very narcissistic and has a huge ego.

He's managed to keep his current job for over 10 years now, but I think I can accurately say it's because it's a mostly male-oriented workplace with a VERY old boy attitude. He actually finally divorced me because his boss told him I wasn't the kind of wife who could help him move up to an executive level position. Sadly I was foolish enough to be upset over losing him for a long time. It's only recently that I've truly begun to realize how much better off I am without him. But I was raised to believe that marriage was a lifetime commitment and for a long time I felt like a total failure because I couldn't make mine work. Now I understand that it was him, not me, that was responsible for that failure, and I've come to terms with it.


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## manfromlamancha (Jul 4, 2013)

Sorry to have you here and please don't take my previous post as saying you are in the wrong. Sounds like your ex was/is a real piece of work and its unfortunate that you went through all this to only realise it now.

I guess that extra Y chromosome he carries around should have been removed at birth but there will always be men like this, and there will always be women who fall for them and then get hurt. Its recovering and becoming stronger that matters here and I believe that you are much stronger now (as I said, it is a shame about the price you had to pay). I just wish mothers would educate their daughters (and sons) about their experiences with these types of men so that they can handle them when the time comes.

Stay strong and healthy!


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Squeakr said:


> Please don't always assume the negative. He may have in fact been the recipient of these offers unprovoked. Doesn't make him any less culpable but doesn't make him a criminal or predator. We have all been in school and heard the rumors of the professor that was willing to date or interact with students in exchange they got better grades. Once those rumors get out, it may have not been his actions that started/ incited such things. Many young students are more than willing to offer to trade a few "favors" for a passing grade.


Legally speaking, it doesn't matter. He would, in the eyes of the law, have been guilty even if the student had danced the merengue nude across the threshold of his office door, singing: "Take me now, prof, I'm oh so horny."

I actually taught for a training company for a while and some bad stuff went on. One colleague was fired -and jailed- for rape when a student told him no she didn't want sex. He thought he was God's gift to women.

She came to me and told me what had happened and I took her to the boss who handled the police report, etc.


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## Squeakr (May 1, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> Squeakr said:
> 
> 
> > Please don't always assume the negative. He may have in fact been the recipient of these offers unprovoked. Doesn't make him any less culpable but doesn't make him a criminal or predator. We have all been in school and heard the rumors of the professor that was willing to date or interact with students in exchange they got better grades. Once those rumors get out, it may have not been his actions that started/ incited such things. Many young students are more than willing to offer to trade a few "favors" for a passing grade.
> ...


If he used his influence then it would have been illegal especially if the student resisted the advances (through either verbal or physical means) but if the student is the one by hat approaches and they are both consenting adults of legal age then it would be unethical and against school code but not illegal in the eyes of the law. Laws aren't always the same between different countries, states, Providences, etc. So it does make a difference.
She said professor which generally means college or university here in the states so people generally of legal age.


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## terrence4159 (Feb 3, 2013)

yeah you crossed the line. what your x hubby did 1 million times worse. i always told my wife she can have male friends (she works in a call center lots of males) and she likes male friends better, less drama her words not mine.

but i did tell her if she ever talked about our marriage or problems i would divorce her, its a slippery slope. she did talk to one guy and one girl about her problems getting pregnant and i exploded almost divorced her. even though another girl there just wrong to talk about personal stuff like that to male friends.


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

'CuseGal said:


> *I would really like to know where people here see the line being drawn between an acceptable friendship between opposite genders and the point at which the friendship becomes an EA.*
> *I honestly still don't really see that my friendship with the other guy crossed the line*.
> 
> You say you were "hugging" this other guy. As far as I'm concerned, a married woman doesn't go around hugging men who are not her husband. If I found out that my wife was doing this, our marriage would be in SERIOUS jeopardy! I wouldn't accept that behavior for a second. Talking, I suppose is ok, but *any* kind of physical activity is absolutely out of the question. If I discovered this, there would be a HUGE blow up, I wouldn't care how "innocent" the intent.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

thummper said:


> 'CuseGal said:
> 
> 
> > *I would really like to know where people here see the line being drawn between an acceptable friendship between opposite genders and the point at which the friendship becomes an EA.*
> ...


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## 'CuseGal (Feb 5, 2015)

thummper said:


> 'CuseGal said:
> 
> 
> > *I would really like to know where people here see the line being drawn between an acceptable friendship between opposite genders and the point at which the friendship becomes an EA.*
> ...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

'CuseGal said:


> thummper said:
> 
> 
> > You and I would have had some real problems  I grew up in a very physically affectionate family and have no problem hugging people in lots of different situations - even strangers more than once if circumstances have seemed appropriate. And my husband NEVER touched me outside of the bedroom. And I mean NEVER - this was a guy who wouldn't even hold me as I bawled my eyes out after the cat I'd had for 14 years died. I was about starving for non-sexual physical affection by the time we split up. What your kids can give you is nowhere near enough.
> ...


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

'CuseGal said:


> thummper said:
> 
> 
> > *You and I would have had some real problems * I beg to differ, 'CuseGal. If I, as your husband (certainly NOT the douche you were actually married to), discovered you hugging other men, there would be no problem between us, because we would no longer be together. Then, you could hug any guy you wanted with no problem. See, cuz I love hugging and showing my wife affection. You'd have never needed to find that in someone else. I'm sorry your ex never showed it to you. I'd like to think he's kicking himself in realization of the wonderful woman he lost.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

thummper said:


> 'CuseGal said:
> 
> 
> > thummper said:
> ...


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## Q tip (Apr 15, 2014)

Well, discuss comfort in detail. 

Anything you don't do in front of the spouse, you simply don't do behind the spouses back.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Q tip said:


> Well, discuss comfort in detail.
> 
> Anything you don't do in front of the spouse, you simply don't do behind the spouses back.


Or you tell them about it later, as long as it doesn't break a confidence.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

I draw the line that if my wife was next to me, if that would not be something she would be ok with, then I better not do it.

Also, if I would not be happy with her doing that thing, then I better not do it.

I like having lines that keep me out of trouble.

(and as far away from trouble as possible.)


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

MattMatt said:


> thummper said:
> 
> 
> > 'CuseGal said:
> ...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

thummper said:


> MattMatt said:
> 
> 
> > thummper said:
> ...


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

'CuseGal said:


> I would really like to know where people here see the line being drawn between an acceptable friendship between opposite genders and the point at which the friendship becomes an EA.
> ...
> 
> So I'd really like to know where the line is - and do people think that I crossed it? Not that I suppose it matters, we've been divorced for over 10 years now because he turned out to be a serial cheater. But it's not a mistake I want to make again if I ever do trust a man enough to get seriously involved again in the future.


To me this is easy: fidelity means I owe 100% of my affection and loyalty to my spouse and only my spouse (and no other human being, male or female). So since 100% leaves NO PERCENTAGE for anyone else, I would say any affection or loyalty crosses the line. 

I'm sure you don't want to hear it but since you owed it to your spouse and gave it to someone else, I'd say you crossed a line. Was is as much of a "cross the line" as an EA? I'm not sure of that but it was the beginning of giving to someone else what is due to your spouse so it's not cool .


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## thummper (Dec 19, 2013)

Her xhusband was an incredible idiot. He threw his marriage in the garbage through his stupidity. I found it interesting that he could get so worked up over her actions, when his own were so blatantly egregious.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

'CuseGal said:


> sometimes a woman really just needs to be held (non sexually) by someone who is bigger than she is. It makes us feel safe - loved - cared for - secure


 I would be pissed if my wife was getting hugs from other men that made her feel "safe - loved - cared for - secure".


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## italianjob (May 7, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> To me this is easy: fidelity means I owe 100% of my affection and loyalty to my spouse and only my spouse (and no other human being, male or female). So since 100% leaves NO PERCENTAGE for anyone else, I would say any affection or loyalty crosses the line.
> 
> I'm sure you don't want to hear it but since you owed it to your spouse and gave it to someone else, I'd say you crossed a line. Was is as much of a "cross the line" as an EA? I'm not sure of that but it was the beginning of giving to someone else what is due to your spouse so it's not cool .


Maybe it's a Language thing (I'm not from an English speaking country) but this sounds a bit extreme to me...
You mean you feel no affection for any friend or relative and you don't show any loyalty to any friend or relative?

I don't think this is possible, everybody has close friends they feel affection for and are loyal to.

Can you elaborate?


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

I honestly do not think that you crossed a line or had an emotional affair in the way that most betrayed spouses here have experienced emotional affairs.

I've never understood or supported the thinking that men and women shouldn't have close friends of the opposite gender. To me that stems from a place of insecurity, possessiveness and suspicion and that's not how I want to be or live and definitely not the type of relationship I want to have.

I'd characterise an emotional affair the same way I would any affair. It is defined by secrecy and lies; there exists an inappropriate level of intimacy that is actively kept hidden from the spouse or boyfriend|girlfriend; it takes priority over the relationship; it is detrimental to and has an adverse effect on relationship and there exists a form of chemistry bewteen those involved.

If one is in a relationship where their spouse can't be trusted to be around the opposite sex then perhaps that is not the person to be in a relationship with or the relationship has to be re-evaluated and appropriate behaviour and boundaries should be discussed.

I get that there are definitely men and women out there that you do not want your husband|wife, boyfriend|girlfriend to be friends with because you're familiar with their character, histroy and behaviour or you have a suspicious sense about them.

There are instances (such as FamilyMan15's thread) where the spouse (with no history of past same-sex relations) has an affair with a person of the same gender. In such cases should the adulterous spouse then not have friends of either gender?


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## Locke.Stratos (Sep 27, 2014)

Your husband by the way is an a**hole and not even a good one. He is just a plain ol', unimpressive, low grade, gutter a**hole. I can't believe that he actually ended your marriage, that says a lot about him and you as well. That you were willing to endure so much hurt and disrespect and still not walk away.

I'm sorry for what you went through with him, you were lied to, gas lighted and made to be insecure. You are waaaaaaay better off without him. Any and everything he has said and accused you of is from a self-serving, narcissistic, a**hole perspective. You should erase that trash from your memory and give no more thought to it. I do not consider or even midly entertain the rantings of an idiot. Not all men are like that and it is sad that your relationship with him has soured and allowed you to deny yourself of an intimate relationship since your divorce.



'CuseGal said:


> I grew up in a very physically affectionate family and have no problem hugging people in lots of different situations - even strangers more than once if circumstances have seemed appropriate.


Same here, grew up in a physically affectionate environment, with friends and family (and even strangers) alike. It's a shame that you, as a physically affectionate person, were deprived of intimacy in your marriage. Not even a hug? Hugs here are like no issue, people hug, it's practically a way of life in my experiences and life.



thummper said:


> A little farfetched don't you think? If someone had truly suffered that kind of tragedy, it's not likely they'd have hung around their place of employment just to get a consoling hug from my wife.


Not that far-fetched. I had lost someone and as I was leaving a crowded hall it all just hit me and I began to well-up and became teary and a (married female) friend and collegue noticed, asked me what was wrong and just stood and hugged me as people walked by. It was weird and strange as f*** to be that emotional for me out in public like that but it wasn't inappropriate on either of our parts and it didn't escalate or change the nature of our relationship, years later since it happened. I have and would do the same for someone and know many who would as well, even to strangers.

Trauma and pain can affect anyone anywhere. I've seen people break down and cry, from the young to adult men and women and many betrayed spouses here have experienced triggers in the most innocuous of circumstances.


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## 'CuseGal (Feb 5, 2015)

Locke.Stratos said:


> Not that far-fetched. I had lost someone and as I was leaving a crowded hall it all just hit me and I began to well-up and became teary and a (married female) friend and collegue noticed, asked me what was wrong and just stood and hugged me as people walked by. It was weird and strange as f*** to be that emotional for me out in public like that but it wasn't inappropriate on either of our parts and it didn't escalate or change the nature of our relationship, years later since it happened. I have and would do the same for someone and know many who would as well, even to strangers.
> 
> Trauma and pain can affect anyone anywhere. I've seen people break down and cry, from the young to adult men and women and many betrayed spouses here have experienced triggers in the most innocuous of circumstances.


Truth! Last summer my younger brother was killed in a car accident. I was in a place financially that I was unable to take more than a couple of days off work to deal with it and I was an emotional wreck. I can't even remember how many times I broke down at work, in public, and ended up crying on the shoulders of both male and female, married and unmarried, co-workers. Also my son's school principal who happens to be a good friend of the family. Of course it didn't help that most of them knew my brother as well, so they were also upset. But it certainly didn't seem inappropriate to me. Now my ex? He would have told me to suck it up and get over it. I actually texted him at the time to tell him about it (this was his kids' uncle after all, they were upset) and he couldn't even be bothered to show up for the funeral for the kids' sake.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Locke.Stratos said:


> I'd characterise an emotional affair the same way I would any affair. It is defined by secrecy and lies; there exists an inappropriate level of intimacy that is actively kept hidden from the spouse or boyfriend|girlfriend; it takes priority over the relationship; it is detrimental to and has an adverse effect on relationship and there exists a form of chemistry bewteen those involved.






'CuseGal said:


> But when my husband found out about our friendship, he FREAKED.



This suggests secrecy. 

This is the definition of EA. 

I was a victim to this very situation. 

When I found out I was heartbroken.

When I found out how long (2 years) it was going on I was humiliated. 

When I found out through OMW that my W was the reason they were divorcing I was mortified. 

When I realized that I had been lied to and gaslit for 2 years I was crushed. 

This is not "just friends". This is replacing your H with another man to meet your needs.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

The line between friendship and emotional affairs is determined by many different boundaries. CarabeanMan did a thread about it sometime ago:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...other-look-opposite-sex-friends-marriage.html

Just a few of the boundaries mentioned were:

1] Choose their friends carefully.OSF should respect YOUR personal / marital boundaries.
2] Do not have OSF that the other partner does not approve of.
3] Make themselves & their partners their primary source of validation / praise.
4] Not willingly put themselves into compromising positions with OSF.
5] Never talk about marital problems with an OSF.
6] Not be friends with people they want to have sex with.
7] Trust each other's judgement on OSF situations.

8. Don't let time spent with OSFs escalate to the point that time spent with other friends is small by comparison. The quality time spent bonding with a spouse should be much greater than any time spent with an OSF.

These plus other boundaries can help keep spouses from crossing the lines into an EA. I also started a thread on boundaries a few years ago:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...27621-cross-gender-friendship-boundaries.html


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

'CuseGal said:


> I had a close friendship with a male coworker a long time ago (I was 23, I'm 45 now) that really upset my (now ex) husband. I saw nothing wrong with it, it was never physical past hugging, we talked a lot about our problems and we went out to eat lunch together sometimes but never just the two of us, there were always other coworkers along. I was having significant marital problems at the time having just found out my husband was messing around on me, and the man in question was in the middle of a divorce because his wife had cheated while he was overseas in military service.
> 
> I never considered myself "in love" with the guy and he never suggested taking our relationship to another level. But when my husband found out about our friendship, he FREAKED. Accused me of all sorts of stuff that simply wasn't happening. All the while he was getting BJs from his students in exchange for high grades (he was an adjunct college prof at the time - he got fired when this came to light). He acted like my behavior was worse than his and I was young enough I let him convince me and after that point I never let myself get close to a male coworker again for the rest of our marriage. While he kept right on cheating. It took us close to a decade to finally split up. (Serious co-dependency issues that would make for a whole 'nother post.)
> 
> What I don't understand, looking back on it, is where he got off accusing me of having done something worse than what he was doing. I honestly still don't really see that my friendship with the other guy crossed the line.


First your husband reacted like he did because he was cheating and knew what a relationship like that meant for him. He probably didn't trust you or your friend because he couldn't be trusted.

Second you crossed a boundary of revealing marital problems to an OSF. This can create an Environment where you both bond against spouse behavior which then can create a desire to escalate the relationship in other ways. Talking negatively about a spouse also sends a subtle message that to friends that you are dissatisfied and could be receptive to more. It also encourages comparison between your husband and the friend who is being supportive and understanding which can lead to the grass is greener with someone else view.

So while your husband was much worse you were starting to put yourself in a position where an EA or more could start to form. It's all about the boundaries. This one is mentioned in my previous post where it is stated without supporting reasons.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

italianjob said:


> > Originally Posted by Affaircare
> > To me this is easy: fidelity means I owe 100% of my affection and loyalty to my spouse and only my spouse (and no other human being, male or female). So since 100% leaves NO PERCENTAGE for anyone else, I would say any affection or loyalty crosses the line.
> >
> > I'm sure you don't want to hear it but since you owed it to your spouse and gave it to someone else, I'd say you crossed a line. Was is as much of a "cross the line" as an EA? I'm not sure of that but it was the beginning of giving to someone else what is due to your spouse so it's not cool .
> ...


I think I know what Affaircare was getting at. Most of your emotional energy and needs should be directed to and be met by your spouse. I think 100% is a bit extreme because we all have affection and direct emotional energy towards parents, children and some friends. But the majority of it should be with a spouse and I agree.

Affaircare make a great point about male or female. I've seen a wife who spent and had most of her emotianl energy towards a female friend and not her husband. This disenfranchises him from the emotional support and validation he needs and I view it as an EA every bit as much with one of the opposite sex.


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## 'CuseGal (Feb 5, 2015)

Ceegee said:


> This suggests secrecy.
> 
> This is the definition of EA.
> 
> ...


But there was no intentional secrecy. My husband was well aware that I was the ONLY female working in a department with about a dozen guys and that I hung out with them at lunch. In fact he was friends with several of them as well. We pretty much talked about anything and everything, even the fact that one of my coworkers had an open marriage and this was 20 years ago when that just was NOT acceptable behavior. My ex never before had had a problem with my friendships with other guys. I agree that he had a problem with this one because at this point he WAS cheating so he assumed I probably was as well. I also think he was upset because he was embarrassed, which like I said, I understand now. I didn't then. I definitely recognize now that he was humiliated when he found out this other guy knew he was cheating on me. Especially since he found out the other guy knew because the guy confronted him with it and told him off big time. Which I had NOT put him up to in any way.

As far as replacing my H with another man to meet my needs - he was replacing me with multiple other women to meet his. And my NEED - was for nothing but comfort - how was I going to go to my H for comfort when he was the one who was hurting me to begin with? I'd already confronted him and he basically told me to put up and shut up or get out. Silly young idiot that I was, I still loved him at that point so I chose the put up and shut up option.Which led to his continuing his cheating behavior for most of the next decade.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

'CuseGal said:


> But there was no intentional secrecy. My husband was well aware that I was the ONLY female working in a department with about a dozen guys and that I hung out with them at lunch. In fact he was friends with several of them as well. We pretty much talked about anything and everything, even the fact that one of my coworkers had an open marriage and this was 20 years ago when that just was NOT acceptable behavior. My ex never before had had a problem with my friendships with other guys. I agree that he had a problem with this one because at this point he WAS cheating so he assumed I probably was as well. I also think he was upset because he was embarrassed, which like I said, I understand now. I didn't then. I definitely recognize now that he was humiliated when he found out this other guy knew he was cheating on me. Especially since he found out the other guy knew because the guy confronted him with it and told him off big time. Which I had NOT put him up to in any way.
> 
> 
> 
> As far as replacing my H with another man to meet my needs - he was replacing me with multiple other women to meet his. And my NEED - was for nothing but comfort - how was I going to go to my H for comfort when he was the one who was hurting me to begin with? I'd already confronted him and he basically told me to put up and shut up or get out. Silly young idiot that I was, I still loved him at that point so I chose the put up and shut up option.Which led to his continuing his cheating behavior for most of the next decade.



Sorry you had to go through that. 

Understand that your question had to do with your EA so that's why I posted what I did. Your H's actions notwithstanding, I do not believe it is appropriate to have that type of relationship with OSF's. You've come here to talk about it 20 years after the fact so it obviously has weighed on you. 

Despite the actions of others it is important to maintain personal responsibility.


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## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

meson said:


> The line between friendship and emotional affairs is determined by many different boundaries. CarabeanMan did a thread about it sometime ago:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...other-look-opposite-sex-friends-marriage.html
> 
> ...


Really good stuff here. If anyone has an OSF they confide things in then they're out of bounds and deep down, they know it.


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## MovingAhead (Dec 27, 2012)

'CuseGal said:


> I would really like to know where people here see the line being drawn between an acceptable friendship between opposite genders and the point at which the friendship becomes an EA.
> 
> I've heard the concept of the EA being batted around for a while now, and it struck a chord with me because I had a close friendship with a male coworker a long time ago (I was 23, I'm 45 now) that really upset my (now ex) husband. I saw nothing wrong with it, it was never physical past hugging, we talked a lot about our problems and we went out to eat lunch together sometimes but never just the two of us, there were always other coworkers along. I was having significant marital problems at the time having just found out my husband was messing around on me, and the man in question was in the middle of a divorce because his wife had cheated while he was overseas in military service.
> 
> ...


Two things...

1. Your husband who was over reacting about your relationship with a coworker... He wasn't over reacting really because your relationship with your co worker probably crossed the line in ways. You should never confide with anyone of the opposite sex at work etc... about your marital problems! That just invites disaster and is truly crossing the line. If you are having marital problems, you need to deal with the person you are having problems with not giving your emotions to some other guy at work... This is contrary to what I just said because you husband was cheating... but cheaters often times will accuse you of cheating because they are judging you by their own lack of morals so you situation was altogether bad...

2. A man who is going through a divorce being your friend at work... He was waiting for your marriages to melt down so he could 'hit that'. Men are not friends with women if they don't believe that the possibility of a relationship could be built given the opportunity. I don't think men and women can be just friends... One of them is always interested in the other so if you were not interested in your friend guess what... I think that the idea men and women can be friends is a .01% chance and most people just don't fall into that range.


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## KingwoodKev (Jan 15, 2015)

MovingAhead said:


> Two things...
> 
> 1. Your husband who was over reacting about your relationship with a coworker... He wasn't over reacting really because your relationship with your co worker probably crossed the line in ways. You should never confide with anyone of the opposite sex at work etc... about your marital problems! That just invites disaster and is truly crossing the line. If you are having marital problems, you need to deal with the person you are having problems with not giving your emotions to some other guy at work... This is contrary to what I just said because you husband was cheating... but cheaters often times will accuse you of cheating because they are judging you by their own lack of morals so you situation was altogether bad...
> 
> 2. A man who is going through a divorce being your friend at work... He was waiting for your marriages to melt down so he could 'hit that'. Men are not friends with women if they don't believe that the possibility of a relationship could be built given the opportunity. I don't think men and women can be just friends... One of them is always interested in the other so if you were not interested in your friend guess what... I think that the idea men and women can be friends is a .01% chance and most people just don't fall into that range.


Awesome post! You're right, women think their guy pals just want to be friends. I laugh so hard at that notion. They're just biding their time. OSF for married people is way out of bounds.


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