# At my wits' end



## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

This will definitely be a long story. I apologise in advance. Over the past couple of years, I feel like I could write a book about my life...

I have been married for 5 years. a year and a half ago, I finally asked my husband to leave. I worked full time as a teacher and my husband has never been able to keep a job. With our two children at day care and school, he spent his days playing computer games, training and sleeping. Asking him to make the kids lunches in the morning was a constant struggle as he was just too tired from staying up all night. Every time I asked him to do something around the house or get a job, I was told to stop being a 'nagging' wife. Any attempt to work on our marriage was quickly rejected. He asked me to take the kids out of care and leave them at home because we were just not making ends meet. After three weeks and the kids staying at home day in and day out, just running around their dad while his eyes were glued to the computer screen, I had had enough and asked him to leave. 

Less thant wo weeks after he left he became involved with another women. (I shall call her HW) He refused to look after the kids when I worked because he had 'better' things to do, like go on dates. He also said that he didn't love me anymore. I was stuck as finding care is very difficult in our area. I relied on family and friends to help until I finally found a carer.

One morning he came to my house when I had a few freinds over and because one of them was male, he went on a rampage. Apparetly, I was not allowed to have a man in my house... I needed to call the police when he sped off with my son in a rage and no car seat. Even after this I begged for him to return, for him to step up and help support his family and work on our marriage. Eventually he decided to come back to the family.

I did my best to work on the marriage. It was difficult as I had HW calling me, emailing me, calling my husband and turning up angry on my doorstep, desperate to get him back. He said he wanted to move away to a bigger city to start a sports club and to start over. (His dream) So after three months, I packed up my house, my kids and my fantastic job to move 12 hours drive away from my friends and family. After only four weeks, I found out that HW was still calling him and after I told him that I must listen to ALL conversations, she got angry and emailed me everything! It turned out that my husband was seeing her the whole four months before the move. She backed this up by telling me to take a look at my wedding photos. There was one picture with comments from all our guests, the last gift from my belated father. In big black ink were the words, 'YOUR MARRIAGE IS A JOKE". She had vandalised our wedding photos. I found out that she too was planning on moving to the same location and was moving 10mins away. The plan being for him to make me think he was back, move the kids to the location he wanted me too go to and then leave to live with her. I was deverstated!! I had the police remove him that night because he refused to leave. He made me feel terrible for kicking him out with nowhere to go. HW sent me nasty text messages telling me how much of a bad person I was kicking my own husband out when he had nowhere to go. I told her to buy him a plane ticket... She did... 

Less than two weeks later, he arrived back on my doorstep. Begging me to take him back. I did but this didn't stop him from 'thinking' about her. With his plans to create his own club falling through, he took up a security job on wekeends, refusing to get a full time job. Again I had to take the kids out of care to make ends meet. He promised he wouldn't leave, making a promise to his daughter also.

Once my nephew was born, I went back to my hometown for a few days. He dropped me off at the airport and promised he would do anything to keep the family together. Upon my return, things had changed. He was distant for the first week and spent many hours out of the house. He said he had realised that he was not 'needed' at home because his son was getting bored with him during the day. He said that he had a chat with his mother and his mother told him he should follow his heart and leave. He said the least I could do was let him stay for 4 weeks to get enough money to leave. I accepted.

That weekend, after my daughter had been admitted to hospital for asthma, he took my car to work one night and told me he was too tired to drive home and was going to stay at a work mates house before his shift the next day. I was very conerned that I was left alone with no transport after my daughter had just been released from hospital. He didn't care. I had my suspicions and after finding out the HW address, I drove to her appartment and found him there. Both of them were too coward to come out. I got my car keys and took my car home. Packing his things up and once again being left with no care for my kids because I was told that the HW, who has no children herself would take care of them for me... I later found out that while I was away, our young daughter found her 'naked' in our bed. 

Three weeks later, he had rented an apartment with her. She constantly harrased me, telling me she was taking me to court to get full custody of the children. I was in a living nightmare. I kept my kids close and just told her to go ahead. I had had enough.

Only a month later, my husband left her again. Saying that she was too 'controlling'. Funny that, considering I never compained about him training 4 or 5 nights a week because he enjoyed it. He came crawling back and organised counseling for both of us. He got a full time job but soon quit because he 'didn't like it'. He stays at home, watches TV, trains at his club that he earns a whole $100 a week at and plays computer games. He has asked me to take the kids out of care, but I am too afraid too. I still clean, mostly make dinner, fold the washing and even mow the yard after I work 10 hours a day. We have been to counceling a number of times and he seems actually commited. Problem is, I honestly don't think I could ever trust him or forgive him for what he has done. I don't want to close at all. I am sick of being broke, I have a great job, but it just isn't enough. I want to buy my own house one day, but it just wont be possible because he just does not want to work... at all! I have even applied for a second job on the weekends to support us. He will just let me do it, with no concern because his club is 'growing' with now 12 members and this is ALL he wants to do. When I explain that it is just 'not paying the bills' he gets defensive and says that it's not fair that 'I got my degree and am happy' and should be his turn. Telling him that he should have done it before we decided to have kids, like I did, just does not make sense to him and he just tells me that I should be more 'supportive'. 

I want to leave him but I am worried for my kids. I never wanted a broken family but he is not the role model I want for my children. Also, he has NO money at all and no where to go. I feel stuck, unhappy and miserable.

Gosh, I know there is going to be a lot of 'Wake up woman' comments on here, but I think that is just exactly what I need to hear. 

I know I deserve better. I work hard, I take the best care of my children and I have worked very hard to get where I am career wise. I have soo much to give but my husband has not told me he loves me in years, claiming that he just needs to 'connect' with me again.

So where do I go from here?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> Gosh, I know there is going to be a lot of 'Wake up woman' comments on here, but I think that is just exactly what I need to hear.


Yup. WAKE UP WOMAN!



> So where do I go from here?


You go straight to the lawyer's office and file for divorce. 

You have absolutely no reason to need or love that cheating son of a b1tch.


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

I feel silly reading back over it all. He just really has a way of making me feel like it is all MY fault for his affair. That if I would have been more supportive or less nagging etc it would not happened. Not sure how much more supportive I can be, letting him stay home and go out 4 or 5 times a night for support when we have 2 kids under 6. 
I'm starting to feel like this is 'normal' behavior. 
I worry so much about the kids coping with a divorce. This is my number one issue. It's not the life I envisioned for myself. Will they be ok? 
How do I kick him out when he has nowhere to go?


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

You can't "kick him out" legally unless he is physically abusive to you and the kids.

Divorce is scary but its not a monster to fear. You and the kids will be ok.


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Your husband is an immature parasite. When he grows up he will be a large parasite and even more damaging. Letting HW have him is excellent revenge. Her life will suck.

What sport is he so into?

Does he have a hero in his sport who holds a job and stands by his family?


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

Let us see: You work, take care of the children, do the laundry, cook, clean etc., 

he plays video games, spends your money, cheats, exposes you to STD's if you have sex with him because of his lack of integrity, keeps calling the other woman, exposes your children to another woman naked in your bed, that really helps build morals in your children.

No, I think you have it right you should continue your relationship he definitely is worth wasting your life on and teaching your children they should also be door mats


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

Actually, I think your kids will be better off if you divorced this slime ball.


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

You worry about the kids coping with divorce? You should be worried what kind of example your husband is setting for your kids, as well as yourself by repeatedly tolerating his behavior and taking him back. You're not seeing the big picture. You need to file for divorce, find a way to get him out of the house, and out of your life ASAP.


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

I have had that discussion with him. He goes on a rant about how sometimes it would be better just to 'kill himself'. I feel he's been depressed for a loong time but he refuses to do anything about it. He just says that he 'had' to do his sport to calm him down. He had a troubled childhood and I try to give him credit for that. He is just so damn lost but is taking be deep into hole with him. Our household is so unhappy.


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

rrrbbbttt said:


> Let us see: You work, take care of the children, do the laundry, cook, clean etc.,
> 
> he plays video games, spends your money, cheats, exposes you to STD's if you have sex with him because of his lack of integrity, keeps calling the other woman, exposes your children to another woman naked in your bed, that really helps build morals in your children.
> 
> No, I think you have it right you should continue your relationship he definitely is worth wasting your life on and teaching your children they should also be door mats


Yep, that's exactly how it is. I ask him to get three things from the shop, he comes back with one. I spend my weekends doing the shopping and cleaning the house. He is just soo lazy. I just understand it!


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

Jasel said:


> You worry about the kids coping with divorce? You should be worried what kind of example your husband is setting for your kids, as well as yourself by repeatedly tolerating his behavior and taking him back. You're not seeing the big picture. You need to file for divorce, find a way to get him out of the house, and out of your life ASAP.


I know


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

LongWalk said:


> Your husband is an immature parasite. When he grows up he will be a large parasite and even more damaging. Letting HW have him is excellent revenge. Her life will suck.
> 
> What sport is he so into?
> 
> Does he have a hero in his sport who holds a job and stands by his family?


Jiu Jitsu. He is an instructor now. It's like he needs the constant praise of how good he is. He's addicted to it but does not get paid enough. He only works two nights a week and could easily get a day job, he is just so busy 'training' and doesn't 'want' to work. Since we have been together he has had about 10 jobs. He has an argument with someone, decides he should not be treated that way and just walks out with no regard to the impact this has on his family. He just knows I will again pick up the pieces. I'm tired of it.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Lotsa said:


> I feel silly reading back over it all. He just really has a way of making me feel like it is all MY fault for his affair. That if I would have been more supportive or less nagging etc it would not happened. Not sure how much more supportive I can be, letting him stay home and go out 4 or 5 times a night for support when we have 2 kids under 6.
> I'm starting to feel like this is 'normal' behavior.
> I worry so much about the kids coping with a divorce. This is my number one issue. It's not the life I envisioned for myself. Will they be ok?
> How do I kick him out when he has nowhere to go?


Yes, the kids will be ok, I promise. You just keep being the strong, loving role model to them they need, and they will be fine. They will thrive.

As far as the suicide threats, MANY of us have been there. The next time he makes an actual threat (i.e. "If you kick me out/leave, I swear I will kill myself."), call 911 and report a suicidal person.


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

Do the 180 for you!!!


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

rrrbbbttt said:


> Do the 180 for you!!!


I just read about this but don't quite understand it. It's like you just completely ignore him and continue on. I have done this. I have my own house, great job and continue to do everything for the kids by myself with little complaint. The problem is that he just sits back and enjoys the 'free' ride. He doesn't love me, and has told me this before. Apparently I will never 'know' love with anyone because no one is capable of loving me. Of course I don't believe this and therefore it never gets me down... So to do a 180, what exactly do I have to do?


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Lotsa said:
> 
> 
> > I feel silly reading back over it all. He just really has a way of making me feel like it is all MY fault for his affair. That if I would have been more supportive or less nagging etc it would not happened. Not sure how much more supportive I can be, letting him stay home and go out 4 or 5 times a night for support when we have 2 kids under 6.
> ...


This is soo good to hear. You have no idea!


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Lotsa said:


> This will definitely be a long story. I apologise in advance. Over the past couple of years, I feel like I could write a book about my life...
> 
> I have been married for 5 years. a year and a half ago, I finally asked my husband to leave. I worked full time as a teacher and my husband has never been able to keep a job. With our two children at day care and school, he spent his days playing computer games, training and sleeping. Asking him to make the kids lunches in the morning was a constant struggle as he was just too tired from staying up all night. Every time I asked him to do something around the house or get a job, I was told to stop being a 'nagging' wife. Any attempt to work on our marriage was quickly rejected. He asked me to take the kids out of care and leave them at home because we were just not making ends meet. After three weeks and the kids staying at home day in and day out, just running around their dad while his eyes were glued to the computer screen, I had had enough and asked him to leave.
> 
> ...


Dump his ass! He is nothing but a liability and has taken you for a fool. Have some respect for yourself and let your children see your stand up for what is right. Why are you holding onto the possibility of him changing, he's not going to change, the sooner you see that the better for you and your children. The OW probably saw how useless he was and got rid of him, hence the 'controlling,' you sound like you have your head screwed on. Follow your head and not your heart.


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Lotsa said:


> I have had that discussion with him. He goes on a rant about how sometimes it would be better just to 'kill himself'. I feel he's been depressed for a loong time but he refuses to do anything about it. He just says that he 'had' to do his sport to calm him down. He had a troubled childhood and I try to give him credit for that. He is just so damn lost but is taking be deep into hole with him. Our household is so unhappy.


My heart weeps for him not! He is pulling the 'oh woe is me' crap, do NOT fall for it, you do everything, including holding down a full time job, taking care of kids, cooking, cleaning etc. You must have more self worth that listening to this crap from your H. He is a parasite as someone said and a user as is evident from the 'me me me' diatribe coming out of him. Run!


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Lotsa said:


> Jiu Jitsu. He is an instructor now. It's like he needs the constant praise of how good he is. He's addicted to it but does not get paid enough. He only works two nights a week and could easily get a day job, he is just so busy 'training' and doesn't 'want' to work. Since we have been together he has had about 10 jobs. He has an argument with someone, decides he should not be treated that way and just walks out with no regard to the impact this has on his family. He just knows I will again pick up the pieces. I'm tired of it.


I know a handful of people who are addicted to BJJ. Including one instructor who is an amazing single dad and has a full time day job. NONE of these BJJ addicts would be proud to be associated with your husband and his ethics. Just saying. It's a discipline, and he certainly is not behaving the way most BJJ enthusiasts would expect!

As far as the 180......for me (we're still in the same house) it looks like just keeping to myself, no speaking to him unless it's a logistics thing and it is completely necessary (i.e. about kids), no more emotional outbursts from me, no texts except to reply to his, etc. As an example of my version of the 180, here are two things that happened within the last few days:

1. Saturday afternoon, he was out doing stuff (gym, etc.) and I left before he got home to go out to dinner with some of my girlfriends. My kids are old enough to be left alone for a few hours. When he got home, I was not there. He texted me asking when I'd be home and I told him, then he asked if he "knew about this" (me going out). Apparently, that afternoon he'd made plans to go out with his bud assuming I'd be home. I told him that yes, I'd told him about this a couple weeks prior when I sent him my schedule/when I had plans for a few weeks out. This was on that schedule/email. He responded with, "well a reminder would have been nice!" I responded with, "We are not partners anymore, remember? Maybe you should forward my schedule to lover girl and she can send you reminders. Better yet, use a calendar like the rest of us." (The true 180 would have been to leave out the lover girl part lol).

2. For a while we didn't have dental insurance but now he has it again and can add the kids to his insurance. I'm self employed and carry my own insurance. Usually I'm the one who fills out all paperwork like that because he "hates paperwork" (like I love it). He printed out the forms and they were sitting on the kitchen island for days. He expected me to fill them out, but I ignored them. He finally filled them out, but did ask me to find the kids' SS# and fill those in (I keep their cards in my wallet and we don't have their numbers memorized). So, I did that last night. While I was eating my dinner (alone in the dining room), he said, "did you look these over? does everything look ok?" I said, "Oh I don't know....I didn't even read them." He was annoyed and said a sarcastic, "Oooookaaaaaay......!" And that was that. I did not even look up.

Basically, I am keeping calm, emotionless around him, and keeping myself in check regarding being his partner or his helper because he's decided he doesn't want to be mine. 

Hope that helps.

ETA: Adding a third example. Yesterday afternoon he texted me and told me someone was killed on his job site. Normally I would react, "OMG! That's horrible! Thank God it wasn't you! Are you upset?" Instead, I just said, "Yikes, how?" He told me and I asked if it was someone from his company and he said no. I did not respond.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

He has kicked himself out.


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## Tomara (Jun 19, 2013)

The title to your post says it all. You are there and now it's action time for you. The 180 works and make you a stronger person. Respect yourself and give your kids a chance to have a normal life. Kids survive divorce and come out just fine, I know I raised my own kids 24/7 after I divorced. The are wonderful adults now. Don't waste anymore time on your loser spouse. He's not going to change so you have to!


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Lotsa said:
> 
> 
> > Jiu Jitsu. He is an instructor now. It's like he needs the constant praise of how good he is. He's addicted to it but does not get paid enough. He only works two nights a week and could easily get a day job, he is just so busy 'training' and doesn't 'want' to work. Since we have been together he has had about 10 jobs. He has an argument with someone, decides he should not be treated that way and just walks out with no regard to the impact this has on his family. He just knows I will again pick up the pieces. I'm tired of it.
> ...


wow, you are so strong! So I just basically look after myself and pretend he is not there unless it is concerns the kids or is absolutely necessary.. got it! 
I will certainly do some more reading and give this a go from tomorrow. 
Thanks so much for your help. Good luck and keep me updated with how you go. Sounds like you are doing fantastic!


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

Tomara said:


> The title to your post says it all. You are there and now it's action time for you. The 180 works and make you a stronger person. Respect yourself and give your kids a chance to have a normal life. Kids survive divorce and come out just fine, I know I raised my own kids 24/7 after I divorced. The are wonderful adults now. Don't waste anymore time on your loser spouse. He's not going to change so you have to!


Can I ask how difficult it was them in the beginning and how you overcame that? Do your kids ever wish you stayed together for them?


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Lotsa said:


> wow, you are so strong! So I just basically look after myself and pretend he is not there unless it is concerns the kids or is absolutely necessary.. got it!
> I will certainly do some more reading and give this a go from tomorrow.
> Thanks so much for your help. Good luck and keep me updated with how you go. Sounds like you are doing fantastic!


Thanks.....I'm trying. You can do it too.

Just keep asking yourself, "if I ignore this issue, will my kids be negatively affected?" If the answer is no, do it. For example, yes, it was my kids' dental insurance forms, but were they hurt in any way by ME not filling them out for him? Absolutely not. They aren't even due until tomorrow.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

Lotsa said:


> Can I ask how difficult it was them in the beginning and how you overcame that? Do your kids ever wish you stayed together for them?


Lotsa, I know this is not directed at me. But I'm going to answer.

Everyone has the same feelings that you do, and that shows you are a great mother. We all have the exact same fear. I won't lie and say "eh kids weren't upset at all" because that is simply not true. But, their lives won't be ruined by this as long as you are stable and consistent parent, and hopefully their dad will be, too. 

This is my second time around with the same man, their father. My story is long and convoluted, but we reconciled after divorce and now we're splitting up. I won't lie.....my kids are my BIGGEST stress/fear/sadness right now. It SUCKS for them and every time I think of doing this to them again I cry. But I have no choice. Our goal is to disrupt their lives as little as possible. They can't keep seeing "this" as a way to live, though. 

*This* has been my kids' lives (family strife) since 2007. When I realized that the other day it shocked me, and it saddens me that this conflict is all they've known . I'm sure it will affect and shape their relationships in the future, but it's something I'll be open with them about, encouraging counseling (my daughter is already in counseling), etc. My kids are 12 and 14 and great kids. They don't get in trouble at school, have friends, are involved in sports/activities, etc. Are they chipper and happy all the time? No, but I don't know a lot of tweens and teens who are. It's important to just keep lines of communication open and make sure they know you're always there for them. And try, try, try to stay in a positive and good mood around them. That's hard for me sometimes because I'm pretty emotional.


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

SecondTime'Round said:


> Lotsa, I know this is not directed at me. But I'm going to answer.
> 
> Everyone has the same feelings that you do, and that shows you are a great mother. We all have the exact same fear. I won't lie and say "eh kids weren't upset at all" because that is simply not true. But, their lives won't be ruined by this as long as you are stable and consistent parent, and hopefully their dad will be, too.
> 
> ...


Thank you an insight into your personal experience. It really has helped put a few things into perspective. I am super emotional too and will pretty much cry ALL the time, even when I am happy so this will be hard for me. You certainly should be commended on your efforts to work things out though, despite some of the negative impacts now. I guess there are good and bad outcomes for both decisions. I am kind of at the stage where I know I have tried my absolute best and it didn't help. I need to move on but I know he will go on about how he will try and how we are mean't to be together and how I am just not trying hard enough etc etc. He always finds a way to make me feel guilty for just wanting to be happy. 
Seriously, why is life so hard right? lol


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

SecondTime'Round said:


> I know a handful of people who are addicted to BJJ. Including one instructor who is an amazing single dad and has a full time day job. NONE of these BJJ addicts would be proud to be associated with your husband and his ethics. Just saying. It's a discipline, and he certainly is not behaving the way most BJJ enthusiasts would expect!
> 
> As far as the 180......for me (we're still in the same house) it looks like just keeping to myself, no speaking to him unless it's a logistics thing and it is completely necessary (i.e. about kids), no more emotional outbursts from me, no texts except to reply to his, etc. As an example of my version of the 180, here are two things that happened within the last few days:
> 
> ...



Love it! They don't realise all the stuff we actually do when it comes to admin in the home. This morning I just spent 2.5 hours going through bills, payments, writing cheques, filing, etc. i am thankful we have the money to do so, but it is a thankless task and some has to do it. I love your style!


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

L, you seem to be the type of woman I preyed on in my younger and dumber days.
While I didn't have kids with them, they did take care of me.

You say he says he don't love you,,, BELIEVE HIM !!! he doesn't.

Call the cops to get him out, and file D. He is all about the easy life on your dime baby girl. Face it, and move on.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

SecondTime'Round said:


> As far as the 180......for me (we're still in the same house) it looks like just keeping to myself, no speaking to him unless it's a logistics thing and it is completely necessary (i.e. about kids), no more emotional outbursts from me, no texts except to reply to his, etc. As an example of my version of the 180, here are two things that happened within the last few days:
> 
> 1. Saturday afternoon, he was out doing stuff (gym, etc.) and I left before he got home to go out to dinner with some of my girlfriends. My kids are old enough to be left alone for a few hours. When he got home, I was not there. He texted me asking when I'd be home and I told him, then he asked if he "knew about this" (me going out). Apparently, that afternoon he'd made plans to go out with his bud assuming I'd be home. I told him that yes, I'd told him about this a couple weeks prior when I sent him my schedule/when I had plans for a few weeks out. This was on that schedule/email. He responded with, "well a reminder would have been nice!" I responded with, "We are not partners anymore, remember? Maybe you should forward my schedule to lover girl and she can send you reminders. Better yet, use a calendar like the rest of us." (The true 180 would have been to leave out the lover girl part lol).


Too much discourse for the 180. All he really needed to know was (a) that you were out to dinner w/ friends and (b) that, going forward, you'd be communicating your schedule via e-mail. Now that you've successfully communicated the latter, next time you're out, tell him nothing more than that, then block/ignore/silence any calls from his phone for the rest of the evening.

I suppose a quick "I'm going out" as you're headed out the door wouldn't be too bad, but that's only if he's actually at home. IOW, I wouldn't bother w/ a text, calendar reminder, etc. After all, you're not his secretary.



SecondTime'Round said:


> 2. For a while we didn't have dental insurance but now he has it again and can add the kids to his insurance. I'm self employed and carry my own insurance. Usually I'm the one who fills out all paperwork like that because he "hates paperwork" (like I love it). He printed out the forms and they were sitting on the kitchen island for days. He expected me to fill them out, but I ignored them. He finally filled them out, but did ask me to find the kids' SS# and fill those in (I keep their cards in my wallet and we don't have their numbers memorized). So, I did that last night. While I was eating my dinner (alone in the dining room), he said, "did you look these over? does everything look ok?" I said, "Oh I don't know....I didn't even read them." He was annoyed and said a sarcastic, "Oooookaaaaaay......!" And that was that. I did not even look up.


Not bad. My only commentary here would be to say that you should think about keeping your kids' SSNs in a password-protected app on your smartphone instead of carrying around the actual cards.



SecondTime'Round said:


> Basically, I am keeping calm, emotionless around him, and keeping myself in check regarding being his partner or his helper because he's decided he doesn't want to be mine.
> 
> Hope that helps.
> 
> ETA: Adding a third example. Yesterday afternoon he texted me and told me someone was killed on his job site. Normally I would react, "OMG! That's horrible! Thank God it wasn't you! Are you upset?" Instead, I just said, "Yikes, how?" He told me and I asked if it was someone from his company and he said no. I did not respond.


"Yikes, how?" is too much emotion for the 180. It also invites further conversation, which is a no-no. "That sucks" would've been better. No response at all would've been even better.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Too much discourse for the 180. All he really needed to know was (a) that you were out to dinner w/ friends and (b) that, going forward, you'd be communicating your schedule via e-mail. Now that you've successfully communicated the latter, next time you're out, tell him nothing more than that, then block/ignore/silence any calls from his phone for the rest of the evening.
> 
> I suppose a quick "I'm going out" as you're headed out the door wouldn't be too bad, but that's only if he's actually at home. IOW, I wouldn't bother w/ a text, calendar reminder, etc. After all, you're not his secretary.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your feedback! I'm still learning!  And that's great advice about the SS cards. I'm going to do that.


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Too much discourse for the 180. All he really needed to know was (a) that you were out to dinner w/ friends and (b) that, going forward, you'd be communicating your schedule via e-mail. Now that you've successfully communicated the latter, next time you're out, tell him nothing more than that, then block/ignore/silence any calls from his phone for the rest of the evening.
> 
> I suppose a quick "I'm going out" as you're headed out the door wouldn't be too bad, but that's only if he's actually at home. IOW, I wouldn't bother w/ a text, calendar reminder, etc. After all, you're not his secretary.
> 
> ...


Could someone please let me know how I would implement the 180 in my circumstances?
I have told my cheating husband that I want out of our marriage and that he needs to find a job and somewhere to live. I have said that I will not ‘kick him out’ but want him to do this as quickly as possible.
He first got angry and told me I was a ‘coward’ for asking him to leave because I know he has no one and nowhere to go. He told me he really wants to work on the marriage (we have been to marriage counselling (but of course I have paid for it) but follows this up with, ‘I have no car, no friends’ etc. 
I know he is just using me. He has been trying to get close to me now, trying to talk, trying to hug me etc but honestly, I just don’t want any of it.
Can anyone help me with this? It is so hard to implement for me because I have always been the breadwinner, looked after the kids, finances and housework. I also am the only one who works and with my kids going to day care, he really does nothing during the day except train and play computer games. 
Please help!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lotsa said:


> Could someone please let me know how I would implement the 180 in my circumstances?
> 
> I have told my cheating husband that I want out of our marriage and that he needs to find a job and somewhere to live. I have said that I will not ‘kick him out’ but want him to do this as quickly as possible.
> 
> He first got angry and told me I was a ‘coward’ for asking him to leave because I know he has no one and nowhere to go. He told me he really wants to work on the marriage (we have been to marriage counselling (but of course I have paid for it) but follows this up with, ‘I have no car, no friends’ etc.


Of course he said that you are a coward. He had to find some way to turn this around on you. He’s a big boy. He can go live with his parents. Or maybe HW will take him back. They deserve each other. Does she will live near you?
He has no place to go, no car, no friends… I guess it’s time for him to grow up and get a job. After all he will have to support himself.



Lotsa said:


> I know he is just using me. He has been trying to get close to me now, trying to talk, trying to hug me etc but honestly, I just don’t want any of it.
> 
> Can anyone help me with this? It is so hard to implement for me because I have always been the breadwinner, looked after the kids, finances and housework. I also am the only one who works and with my kids going to day care, he really does nothing during the day except train and play computer games.
> Please help!


He’s home all day playing. So you are not there to talk to him. That’s good. If he calls you or texts you do not respond right away and only respond if it’s important about the children.
What circumstance do you think that you will need to talk to him? It sounds like he’s not around much when you are at home. 

Has he ever been violent with you? Does he grab you? Push you? Break things, punch things?


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

He called me 9 times while at work this morning to sort something out for him. Everyday he calls me at work when he needs something that he can easily do himself. He cracked at me for not answering. 
Yes, in the past be has put holes in the walls because he doesn't get his own way. Of course he blames me. The other day when I told him he had to find a job because I was sick of being lazy, he drove the car with my two kids in it like crazy. Then he started hitting the steering when and eventually yelled at me to get out. I tried to get my kids out but he drove off. He called me a dirty sl*t, twisted bit'ch and even a cu*t in front of my kids. He has even told me that I should be thankful for the holes in the walls because it could have been my face. 
I went to put a DVO on him after this and they just told me that it wasn't worth it and were completely unhelpful


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lotsa said:


> He called me 9 times while at work this morning to sort something out for him. Everyday he calls me at work when he needs something that he can easily do himself. He cracked at me for not answering.


Do not answer his phone calls. You are enabling him so stop it. Instead he can leave a message, text you or email you. You will respond only to the ones that require your response... like very important things about your children.

There is a very important rule of thumb that I have to learn. Never do anything for a male over the age of 5 that they can do for themselves. Learn it. It will save your sanity. If he is calling for things that he can do for himself, let him do them. Stop rescuing him.

I am assuming that he has access to the money you earn. Open up new bank accounts in your name only. Have your pay check deposited into that account. If he wants money, he can earn it. Only buy and cook food for you and the children. He can cook for himself.


Lotsa said:


> Yes, in the past be has put holes in the walls because he doesn't get his own way. Of course he blames me. The other day when I told him he had to find a job because I was sick of being lazy, he drove the car with my two kids in it like crazy. Then he started hitting the steering when and eventually yelled at me to get out. I tried to get my kids out but he drove off. He called me a dirty sl*t, twisted bit'ch and even a cu*t in front of my kids. He has even told me that I should be thankful for the holes in the walls because it could have been my face.


Your husband seriously emotionally and physically abusive. Yes I know, he has not cracked your skull yet. But he what he is doing is considered physical abuse. You had the perfect opportunity to get him out of your house permanently the other day. All you had to do is to call 911 and tell them what he was doing. They would have picked him up, thrown his behind in jail for a few days and you could have gotten a restraining order. He could have seriously injured or killed your children. 

Let that sink in. You have a choice whether or not you want to stay in this crazy marriage. Your children have no choice. They are depending on your to protect them. The next time he does anything like driving crazy with the children or you, or puts holes in the walls, or gets belligerent with you, call 911. Get him out of the house and get a restraining order.

When was the last time that he put holes in the walls? Broke things? Etc?

Here is the issue. As you pull away and go try to get him to leave on his own, he’s going to escalate the violence. Abuse is about control. It’s about the abuser destroying your self-worth so that they can control you. He has to control you because he refuses to grow up, hold a job and be a responsible adult. So he is going to escalate. You need to be ready for this. Anticipate it. Be ready to call 911. Do not engage in any angry outbursts with him. If he starts arguing, yelling, etc. Just say something like “I’m going getting into it.” and go to another room with your children and lock the door. Or leave the house, go for a ride. Do anything to get away from him.

If he follows you and does something like bang on the door, call 911 and tell them that you and the children are locked in the room and he’s trying to break it down to get it. Let them hear him banging on the door.



Lotsa said:


> I went to put a DVO on him after this and they just told me that it wasn't worth it and were completely unhelpful


Do the police have a record of you talking to them about this?

I think that it would help you to find an organization in your area that helps victims of domestic violence. Get into counseling with them. They usually have sliding scale fees, or no fees. Do this because they should be able to help you with getting restraining order. A lot of these places also have pro-bono lawyers who can help you with a divorce.

Is there any way that you can move back to where your family and friends are?


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

The think is that I have had the police remove him twice! I have been to two different agencies and they just don't want to help me. I even filled out the forms and took them straight to he courts. I took the photos of him losing his block with my two year old son when I was at work and he had slapped him twice across the face leaving a big welt!!!! The lady who was supposed to help me said it was not worth it becuase of the process I had to go through and that the courts would probably still allow my husband to have the kids at LEAST every second weekend! This REALLY scares me as I won't be there to protect them. Now, the kids are in care while I am at school and I can make sure I am at home when he is....
I also had the police at my house and showed them pictures of where he had put holes in the walls and they were just disinterested. Apparenlty, if I don't have evidence that he has physically hurt me or threatened to hurt me, I will get nowhere. 
The house is in my name only! I made sure of this when he cheated the first time, I really don't want to leave and have nowhere to go as I stupidly moved 12 hours drive from my family so he could be 'happy' and start a new job that he never did anyway... 
I am just stuck, so I am trying to be nice and ask him to leave. It doesn't solve the problem that the kids will get to see him when I won't be around to protect them  It's just crap!

The last time he cracked it was only about a week ago. That's what brought me to this site. Over the years he has put about 15 holes in the walls. I have photo evidence of this as well as the slap marks and bruises on my kids after he has 'disciplined' them. I also have every text message calling me every name under the sun saved on my phone... He apologises and says that they are just 'words' and don't mean anything... to me, they mean a lot!


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Alrighty, Lotsa.... let's brainstorm together. 

First, in case you need it the 180 List is in my signature. 

Second, I'll just say that when I think of the 180, I think of it like this--what you've been doing has not been working for you... so *Turn 180 Degrees (a U turn)* and do the exact opposite. It's just a way of envisioning you making a completely different choice. 

Third, I want to remind you: "You have to do the 180 list *NOT to be manipulative* but because it's the right thing to do for you. You have to heal from this experience. You have to back off for your own sanity now. You have to have a plan and know that you will be a better person with or without them after all is said and done -- that you will live and learn and move on no matter what. "

The biggest downfall that people have is that they do some of the "actions" of the 180 and they get all upset that "it doesn't work!!!" But the reason it didn't work is because really, deep down, what they were trying to do is manipulate their spouse into doing what they wanted the spouse to do! So understand this right now: Your husband is a complete, adult individual exactly equal to you. He has just as much right to choose what he'll do, when he'll do it, how he'll do it, and who he'll do it to ... as you do. Now he may make choices with which you disagree, and in fact he may make choices that you think are "wrong" or even "stupid"! But just like all of us, the choice he makes are HIS to make, and whatever the choice is, it has a COST and a BENEFIT. 

For example, HE gets to choose if he wants to play video games all day or do household chores half the time and play afterward. The COST of choosing to play video games all day is that the house is a mess, the kids are starving and don't behave, and his wife is mad at him; the BENEFIT of choosing to play all day is that he is someone powerful in the game, he is admired for his skill in the game, and he doesn't feel like such a "loser" in the game. The COST of choosing to do household chores half the time and play afterward is that he gets tired, it's not fun, and he feels bad about himself because he can't find a job; the BENEFIT of choosing to do household chores half the time and play afterward is that the house is cleaner, the kids behave better, and wifey is happy with him. 

See?? HE gets to make HIS choices! 

For the 180 to be effective, you have to stop trying to make him do or be anything, and just let him be in charge of that. YOU be in charge of YOU, and YOU stop covering up for HIM. That's the 180--a complete U-Turn from being the "I'm going to MAKE YOU get a job" wife to "I'm taking my hands off your steering wheel--choose what you choose. But I will also make choices for myself and what I will and will not accept in my life." Instead of trying to put a fence around him...think of it like a fence AROUND YOU, and YOU are figuring out who you will open the gate to and let inside to be near you. Get it??

Let's get onto the list!!

Let's not go over all of them but maybe the first half and then you do the second half on your own...okay? 

*1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.* This is pretty self-explanatory. If the dynamic is something like "He gets mad and storms off, you pursue and try to reason with him, he lashes out, you chase him, he blames, you plead with him to work on the marriage...." stop. If he gets mad and storms off, let him go. Inside your head think something like: "Okay, you choose to punish me. Hope you enjoy that. I'm going to ignore the attempt to hurt me, and I'll do ____ which I find fun!"

*2. No frequent phone calls.* Again, pretty self-explanatory. If you guys are used to texting or calling back and forth all day long, and get into text wars... stop. It's part of a dance back and forth baiting each other, so just don't do it. If you are tempted to blow up his phone over the latest hurtful text, instead turn it off, put it down in the bedroom or in your purse where you won't see it, and choose to carry on with something in your life that you like. 

*3. Do not point out good points in marriage.* This is part of the begging and pleading--trying to convince someone to love you. Lotsa, you are a treasure! You are smart, dependable, responsible, financial stable...you are VALUABLE. You don't need to be telling someone those traits if they don't see 'em! Either he loves you and treats you in a loving manner, or he does not. LOVE is not a "feeling"--it's the way you treat them! So don't go down this road because it's bordering on needy-clingy.

*4. Do not follow him/her around the house.* See #1 where I went through that dynamic? I know that may not be EXACTLY the order it goes in, but I bet if you really thought about it, there is a pattern you do go through (he does THIS..you do THAT) and part of that pattern is when he leaves the room and you follow him. That's his way of proving to himself that he's still valuable to you. In the 180, instead of falling for the games and old, unhealthy patterns, what you do is the exact opposite! Remember? U Turn. If he wants to not be where you are, let him go. But there's no rule that says you have to sit around miserable and mope either! Just do what makes you feel better and something you enjoy. 

*5. Do not encourage talk about the future.* One common error that people make in this dynamic is trying to get their spouse to "talk about the relationship" and "talk about what they're going to do" etc. and this part of the 180 is saying stop that. Stop looking for re-assurance and strength from empty promises he makes that he doesn't fulfill anyway and leaves you frustrated! Instead, just don't talk to him! LOL If he brings up the future, just tell him: "I do not choose to talk about the future now because I can't tell what my future decisions may be." 

*6. Do not ask for help from family members.* I think people get this one confused a lot! What this one means is not to abandon your family or anything, but rather it's saying to not recruit your family and your friends to try to help you to make him do...whatever it is you want him to do. If you need your family for support or encouragement FOR YOURSELF--yes. That's good. But do not ask them for help to change HIM. He's like "not on your radar"--he's choosing for himself. Make sense? Can you tell the difference?

*7. Do not ask for reassurances.* Yep, another common mistake that people make--asking for reassurance from someone who is purposefully being unstable. Look, here is reality: he is not a dependable person. He has actually been incredibly consistent if you look at his ACTIONS rather than his words. His actions tell you what he doesn't have the courage to say: he does not want to work; he wants someone who will do all the hard adult stuff; he is self-centered; and he does not really want to change because he likes being a kid. So asking that person (who he truly is) for reassurance is just silly. Even if he does reassure you, it will be a lie and again you'll be frustrated. So if you need reassurance, look to yourself. Dig deep inside YOU and know that you have the strength and courage to get through this on your own and go on to live well.

*8. Do not buy gifts.* Honestly? Why would you buy gifts for someone who's treating you like this? I know, some people do it in the hopes that they can "sweet talk" the spouse into doing what they want, but let it go. Just stop. Take your hands off the wheel of trying to get him to do ___ and if nothing else, keep the money you would have spent on gifts.

By the way, the way I look at this one is a little firmer. If he has no job and is not contributing to the family in any way, I would open a personal bank account that he can not access, deposit my paycheck into that account, and then pay my own bills from my account. Let him pay for HIS bills from ... whatever he chooses I guess! If you pay for his cell and his internet, take his cell off your account. Get a wireless router and change the password so he can't access your internet. Why should you contribute to him? Let him choose how he's going to take care of himself. That is my interpretation. 

*9. Do not schedule dates together.* Think of yourself in "neutral" mode. You are going to be the smart, fun, lovely person you are, and you are going to see if this person in front of you is worth your time, attention and love. You don't make the moves, you don't chase, you just sit back calmly and observe. If he loves you, he can ask you out, make the arrangements, and earn the money to take you! Be YOU...let him be him, and just observe. 

*10. Do not spy on spouse.* This sounds kind of counter to what we usually tell people here on TAM, doesn't it? But in this instance what you're trying to do is untangle yourself, your life, and your emotional roots from HIM, HIS LIFE, and HIS EMOTIONAL ROOTS. So a common mistake people make is to be so insane about their spouse that they snoop and spy--and it comes across as if you care because you're jealous. Does that make sense? What we are aiming for here is to be in a place of apathy--"Hey I don't really care." Up to now maybe you've been all in his business, wanting to know what he's doing or where he's been--so do a U-Turn. if he says "Don't you want to know where I've been?" your reply would be "Not really, I don't care where you were" AND MEAN IT! 

*11. Do not say "I Love You".* OY, this one is hard. In real life you probably do still have some feelings for him and want him to improve and be a better man. A lot of the antics he does are probably to reassure himself that you DO still care about him! But that hasn't been working out for ya too well has it? So do a U-turn. When he says "I love you" and is obviously sort of leading you to say it back, reply with something like this instead: "Thank you" AND DO NOT SAY IT BACK. Remember you are in neutral mode and you are observing and haven't decided yet whether you are willing to love this guy or if he is worthy.  

*12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.* Too many people take this one to mean: fake like you are moving on even though you really aren't. in real life, what this means is "You are beginning to move on with your life without this person. Begin ACTING that way." Do not act like they are still your intimate partner (emotionally, mentally, physically or spiritually). Do not act like you are going to stay the way it is now. Take decisive actions that indicate things are DIFFERENT and that you're moving into a new period of your life that may ... or may not ... include him!! Make some of your own choices without consulting him. Take up a new hobby without him or checking his schedule. 

*13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.* This is a reminder... don't be moping around the house like your life will be over without him. Don't be all clingy and weak and wear sweats and avoid bathing for a week. Be who YOU ARE inside. Be that girl who is finds joy in life and makes people laugh. Be confident and bold! You know that dress that looks AMAZING on you that you never get to wear because he never takes you out? Put THAT dress on, with heels and makeup the whole 9, and then just go out. Don't tell him where you're going or when (or if) you'll be back--it doesn't matter if all you do is go to Dairy Queen and a movie in that amazing dress, just do it! Let him stew in it and wonder--but when he quizzes you and asks what yo did or where you went, don't tell him. "I went out." Period! 

*14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.* Again, this is related to #13 above. Don't mope around the house like your life is over without him. Hey I hate to tell you girl, but my Dear Hubby knows darn well that if he ever chose to leave me, I'd be hurt but I'd also be just fine and get on with a very happy life thank you very much! I do not NEED him in my life to be ME! I do want him and choose him, but that's different isn't it? 

*15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.* Oh this is a good one! Do you usually start the conversations trying to get him to see reason and then it spirals out of control into a fight and he slams out of the room and goes to play his game "because you ____"? Or do you try to get him to be serious just once and work through the problems with you to resolve them? That's not working for you so well, is it? So do a U Turn! Don't talk to him--wait for HIM to talk to YOU. And I mean it... I don't care if you are tempted so much you feel like you're going to explode! WAIT FOR HIM TO TALK TO YOU. When he does talk to you, answer with ONE WORD. Think about it HIM: "Hey haven't talked to you today. Whatcha been up to?" YOU: "Work" HIM: "When's dinner" YOU: "Don't know" HIM: "Are you mad or something?" YOU: "Nope." 

*16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse their whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.* See #10 and #15 above. You get the drift, right? 

*17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.* This is pretty self-explanatory, but the main point here is not to "make your partner think you had an awakening..." but rather to actually WORK ON YOURSELF UNTIL YOU ACTUALLY HAVE THE AWAKENING.... and then you communicate that through your actions. See, I don't need to boss my Dear Hubby or make him do things my way or any of that because I get it...we are all free to make our choices, good or bad. One day he may go insane and want another woman and leave me--and honestly I hope he doesn't but he might. So my job is not to MAKE him stay and MAKE him love me and MAKE him be what I think is a better man. My job is look at myself and make sure that I am the best ME I can bee, because there was something about Me that attracted him. My job is to give him good reasons to stay if that's what he chooses. My job is to love myself enough to allow an imperfect man the room to practice loving me. My job is to give him room to be imperfect and practice growing and doing things better if he chooses to try. 

So I hope this has helped! Now why don't YOU try writing out your ideas for the remaining 180 steps?


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

You are getting something out of this dynamic, that's why you go along with it. Until you figure out what it is you'll keep up with the same thing. And please stop using your kids as an excuse for the fact that you don't want to make touch decisions.

Lazy parasitic manipulators like your hb have to bully in order to continue their free ride. It only works because you go along with it.

I don't know what else to tell you, you aren't ready to pull the plug on this yet for whatever reason.


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

Affaircare said:


> Alrighty, Lotsa.... let's brainstorm together.
> 
> First, in case you need it the 180 List is in my signature.
> 
> ...


I have tried this. Honestly, I have NEVER made him do what he doesn't want to do. His video game playing, not working and not doing anything around the house has been going on for 6 years!! He says he wants to study, I help him with his application and support him by helping him with difficult questions.. he quits because he wants to do something else. He wants to join the defence force, I help him with his applicaiton... he changes his mind. He wasnts to open his own jiu jitsu school, I support him by moving 12 hours away from my family! After two years of him only training himself and no desire to set up his school without ME doing everything, I have had enough. He takes my car to jiu jitsu 5 nights a week without my complaint. BUT if I tell him I have to work late just one night on these days, he gets into a rage! I have supported him getting his security licence, he finally got a job, worked for 3 months and then quit! We run out of money and he doesn't care! He just knows I will figure it out. I can forget about it because we have kids to feed. So I work longer hours to support them. 
Everyone keeps on telling me to not let him walk all over me, then I have you telling me that I have to stop trying to 'control' him. 
I do nothing for myself because I have to work my life around his trarining. If I don't, then I am being unsupportive. I can't just go out on these days because he 'needs' the car. If I take the car, I will come home with holes in the walls because I am a 'twisted bitc*'... I am soo confused.

Letting him do what he wants = where I am now. Doing the washing, cleaning, finances, working full time, moving the yard and the list goes on. I can not stop doing these things becuase I have two kids and they deserve to go to school, have a clean house and food on the table. After six years of doing all this, I am just tired!


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> You are getting something out of this dynamic, that's why you go along with it. Until you figure out what it is you'll keep up with the same thing. And please stop using your kids as an excuse for the fact that you don't want to make touch decisions.
> 
> Lazy parasitic manipulators like your hb have to bully in order to continue their free ride. It only works because you go along with it.
> 
> I don't know what else to tell you, you aren't ready to pull the plug on this yet for whatever reason.


Kids as an excuse? Yes, I shouldn't worry about my kids safety right? You are wrong!


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Lotsa said:


> Kids as an excuse? Yes, I shouldn't worry about my kids safety right? You are wrong!


Really? Because it's clearly in the best interest of your kids' safety to stay with a guy that freaks out and drives like a maniac with them in the car. It's in the best interest of your kids to have a father around that calls their mother foul names, doesn't work, plays games all day, cheats on their mother, and acts like a nasty, spoiled adolescent. That's great. So when they grow up to have marriages like this that will be ok? Of course not.

My point is that this dynamic is terrible for them and you know it, yet you claim to be worried about the effect a split will have. Try to look at it from that perspective.

A lot of people do this, it doesn't mean you don't want the best for your kids. It means that because you're not ready to leave you've convinced yourself that somehow the kids will suffer if you do. 

That's all I'm saying. I'm out now, good luck.


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

lifeistooshort said:


> Lotsa said:
> 
> 
> > Kids as an excuse? Yes, I shouldn't worry about my kids safety right? You are wrong!
> ...


It's terrible, I know this! But I have also seen how upset they were when he left the house. it was deverstating! I have raised the fact that he is a role model for these kids and that our relationship will reflect their own. He mentioned counseling to fix this. 
It's difficult because I am a teacher and ai see the effect a broken home does to kids. It's terrible. Saying this, I have also seen the effects of abusive household. I tried to fix things but it hasn't worked. Now i need advice on what to do next. To make sure my kids will come out ok on the other side. 
I am also really worried about them staying with him on his own. He loses his temper with them. The law says that he has the 'right' to spend time with his kids and I HAVE taken the steps and sought legal advice on how to protect them. Even showing pictures of the abuse only to be told there is not much I can do. So honestly, tell me what should I do in this situation? Let them be alone with him when hes angry or do what im doing now by keeping him at home, making sure the kids are in long day care and 100% being present when he is to stop his melt downs? I am seriously open to any advice you have on this...


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## rrrbbbttt (Apr 6, 2011)

Carry a VAR with you at all times and record his rants. The house is your name so you have the right to record in your house. No expectation of privacy.

Second keep a record of everything he has done besides the VAR, a journal with pictures.

Third bring all this to an agency and show it. 

Also make copies and provide to your attorney. If you don't have an attorney go to one of the abuse Agencies and request help. Document, Document, Document. Once these agencies see you are serious and are doing the paperwork that would reflect on them in a "Bad" light if it should go bad they are forced to step up and do the job they were suppose to do. Unfortunately, that is what you have to do sometimes.

It is a PITA but you need to protect your children.

I know a lot of old time Martial Arts People and your husband sounds like one of the new "Entitiled Breed" all show. They are the ones who learn the Art but do not build the inner integrity that is required to actually become a True Master.

We give too many "PARTICIPANT" Awards today makes people feel that they are entitled and your husband sounds like a "PARTICIPANT' Award winner.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

How about you change the locks on the house and make sure he does not have your car keys? When he starts banging on the door/breaking windows to get back in, call 911. 

Would that work? Since his name is not on your house, you have the upper hand here. I'm very glad to hear that!


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Lotsa said:


> He called me 9 times while at work this morning to sort something out for him. Everyday he calls me at work when he needs something that he can easily do himself. He cracked at me for not answering.
> Yes, in the past be has put holes in the walls because he doesn't get his own way. Of course he blames me. The other day when I told him he had to find a job because I was sick of being lazy, he drove the car with my two kids in it like crazy. Then he started hitting the steering when and eventually yelled at me to get out. I tried to get my kids out but he drove off. He called me a dirty sl*t, twisted bit'ch and even a cu*t in front of my kids. He has even told me that I should be thankful for the holes in the walls because it could have been my face.
> I went to put a DVO on him after this and they just told me that it wasn't worth it and were completely unhelpful


Uhhh... please get a VAR and keep on your person and ready to go at all times. Or, at the very least, keep the voice recorder app on your smartphone handy.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

What you do is go back to those agencies, and tell them you are going to the the papers and see if they will do will your story, of how they won't help you after all the horror stories in the news of agencies not doing enough.

With kids and violence, it's time for you to play dirty.


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## OldWolf57 (Mar 20, 2012)

Also, it may be time to think about moving back home. It may be time to call family and see if you can get your old job back.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Lotsa, 

I hear the frustration in your voice even across the internet, so I want to let you know that you are not hearing the true message and I'm going to try one more time to go through what you wrote and what you're doing...and what a 180 would look like. 

Remember 180 is like "do the exact opposite"--do a U TURN. 

Based on your reply it seems like you read what I wrote and heard something like "Leave him alone and let him get away with murder without any consequences" and that's not what I said AT ALL!!!! What I said was *"What you are doing now, and the way you are acting and reacting now, is not working well for you. Therefore, do the exact opposite of what you used to do or have been doing. Be 100% different." * 

So let's go over what you wrote: 



> I have tried this. Honestly, I have NEVER made him do what he doesn't want to do. His video game playing, not working and not doing anything around the house has been going on for 6 years!!


And how's that working for you? It's not working? Then something has to change. And since you CANNOT CHANGE HIM, you will need to be the one doing something different. 

So he is an adult, chooses to play video games, doesn't work, and does no household chores. If you were not there (like imagine you disappeared) and he made those choices, what would his life look like? Would he be homeless or crashed on a buddy's couch? Would his place be trashed with stacks of pizza boxes? Why is his life not like that NOW? In what ways are you letting him make those choices and not allowing him to experience the consequence of his choices? You are choosing to LET him do that and then covering up for him! 

Thus the 180 response here would be to be 100% different. Get your own bank account, pay your bills from your account, get a wireless router and add YOUR password to it, get his cell phone off your bill, and LET HIM EXPERIENCE WHAT IT'S LIKE TO HAVE TO EARN HIS OWN INTERNET AND CELL PHONE. 

See? A U-turn. 



> He says he wants to study, I help him with his application and support him by helping him with difficult questions.. he quits because he wants to do something else.


And how's that working for you? It's not working? Then something has to change. And since you CANNOT CHANGE HIM, you will need to be the one doing something different. 

See in this instance you are the one choosing to help him iwht the application. Even if you asked, YOU chose to say 'yes.' The cost is that you put in your time and effort and energy into something that has no pay-off for you; the benefit is that now you have yet another reason to blame him and force him and make him--after all, YOU put forth all this effort for him and he didn't follow through! You are Justified! 

So what would happen if you didn't suggest the studying in the first place. What would happen if he said he wanted to study of his own accord, and he asked you for help and you said 'no'? What would happen if he had to look on his own? What would happen if he had to gather the things he needed on his own? Maybe you think: "He'd never do it!" Well...maybe that's the point! If you kept yourself out of it altogether, he'd have to either figure it out ON HIS OWN...or he wouldn't do it and YOU would not have been trying to force him -or- wasted a bunch of your time and energy! 

So the 180 degree, U-Turn on this one is to stop. Stop doing what you think is "helping" him and let him sink or float on his own without you. You can interpret this as letting him move out and make it on his own in his own apartment...or as letting him stay with you but not sticking your nose in to "help." He is a grown man! He doesn't need help! Did I have to "help" you find TAM and figure out how to post and what to type? No! And every time you do that TO HIM, you are essentially saying through your actions that he is too dumb to do it on his own. 

So 180 = stop "helping" him and let him sink or swim on his own. Given the past history with him, I'd say it's completely reasonable to have him move out (it's kind of you to give him a week to get something lined up) and then let him sink or swim without you!! Let HIM get/find a place to be. Let HIM figure out how to pay for electricity or even game upgrades. Let HIM fill out applications to study if he wants to study! And if you give him this time and he chooses to waste the time, play video games, remain unemployed, etc. then you know that he is showing you with his actions "This is who I am. This is what I choose. If you don't want this..then you don't want me because this is me.



> He wants to join the defense force, I help him with his application... he changes his mind.


And how's that working for you? It's not working? Then something has to change. And since you CANNOT CHANGE HIM, you will need to be the one doing something different. 

See above. Stop doing stuff for him and then blaming him that you chose to do it. I get it--part of you is willing to be of assistance to him. But in so doing, what you're actually doing is taking it away from him and not letting HIM do it! You do it. This is why 180 would be to say "No. If you want to do that, they you need to do it all on your own and do the work to figure it out by yourself."



> He wants to open his own jiu jitsu school, I support him by moving 12 hours away from my family! After two years of him only training himself and no desire to set up his school without ME doing everything, I have had enough.


And how's that working for you? It's not working? Then something has to change. And since you CANNOT CHANGE HIM, you will need to be the one doing something different. 

Are you noticing a pattern here? YOU fill out the application for study. YOU fill out the application for defense force. YOU move. YOU do everything to set up "his" school. It's all YOU!!! And I'm sure you have noticed that you do all the work and you do all the chores, and you do everything, but part of that is because you take it away! 

Think of it like a child in a way: if your child needs to learn how to boil and egg, do you teach them by boiling the egg for them? Boiling eggs isn't hard, but they'd still have no idea basically how to do it! It would be something with a pan and water, but ... how much water? How long on the stove? What do you do when it's done? Etc. Nope the way to teach a child is to let them do it!! And sometimes you "help" by answering a bit of a question here or there, but you don't do it FOR THEM--you let them do it and even maybe do it wrong, but they learn!! 

It's sort of similar here (although he is not your child). By doing everything FOR HIM what you are 'teaching' him is that he doesn't need to be responsible in his life. If he leaves it long enough, you'll come along and do it for him!! He doesn't have to make ANY EFFORT!

So 180 degree U-turn here would be that if he wants a school, you leave it to him and let HIM do everything. If he doesn't do anything, if he "forgets", if he stalls...then guess what? He doesn't really want it!! 

Furthermore, you say you've tried this (aka leaving him alone) and it results in him doing nothing, playing all day, not working, doing no chores. Have you let him have no internet? Have you let him pay for his own cell phone? Have you kept dishes clean for you and the kids and let him have no dishes to eat off of? Have you let all his clothes get dirty? 

Lotsa, you *CAN NOT CHANGE HIM*. The only person you can change is YOU. So let him feel the pain of his choices and if you do not want to do that, have him move out and he can feel the pain of his choices in his own place until he learns or doesn't. Either way, it's out of your face. 



> He takes my car to jiu jitsu 5 nights a week without my complaint. BUT if I tell him I have to work late just one night on these days, he gets into a rage!


And how's that working for you? It's not working? Then something has to change. And since you CANNOT CHANGE HIM, you will need to be the one doing something different. 

So? He does not like experiencing the natural consequences of his choices? Well who does? He screams when he feels the pain of his choices--that's all it is. Like a baby who pushes a bottle away and then cries because it's hungry--let him scream. It's just hot air, and you don't have to subject yourself to it. 

A 180 degree U-Turn on this one would be that from this point forward your car is 100% off limits to him. If he wants a car to get to jiu-jitsu, he can get a job, make the car payments and insurance payments himself, and pay for the gas himself. The COST of choosing to be unemployed and play games is that he has no money to buy his own car or pay for his own gas! And if he screams about it, just think of it as a 2year temper tantrum. It doesn't really mean anything--the hope is "if I scream loud enough and long enough I'll get my way!" Well..just a like a 2-year-old you have to TEACH him that screaming does not get him his way....by doing what? Not caving in! Being consistent. 



> I have supported him getting his security licence, he finally got a job, worked for 3 months and then quit! We run out of money and he doesn't care! He just knows I will figure it out. I can forget about it because we have kids to feed. So I work longer hours to support them.


And how's that working for you? It's not working? Then something has to change. And since you CANNOT CHANGE HIM, you will need to be the one doing something different. 

Did you see it? YOU did the security license--not him. Again, YOU did it...YOU did it..YOU did it. You aren't letting him do anything! And again, as a reminder, every time you do that essentially your actions are saying "You are too stupid to do this by yourself so I have to be in control." 

Lotsa, the big lesson of 180 is LETTING GO! Let go of what is not yours. Up to this point you are being a responsible adult for yourself (commendable) and a responsible parent for your kids (commendable) but you are being a horrible spouse! If he chooses to not work--hey I don't mean this mean but plenty of people choose a very simple, very frugal existence because they don't WANT to dedicate their life to "work" and they're still 100% competent adults! The cost to them is that they don't get the extravagances because of their choice, right? So if he chooses not to work the flip side of that coin is that the cost is he doesn't get the "extras"--and that's why I bring up things like internet access and cell phone and the car. You are preventing your spouse from learning important life lessons because you keep covering for him!! 

Please, I get it. He is going to be mad. In fact, he may make a really unwise choice and choose to threaten you with violence. But Lotsa, there is a natural consequence for that too: calling the police and having a charge of domestic violence! He has plenty of other options he could choose. He could choose to work part-time and live simply. He could choose to leave peacefully if you won't give him free internet and car anymore. He could accept it and borrow rides from buddies. 



> Everyone keeps on telling me to not let him walk all over me, then I have you telling me that I have to stop trying to 'control' him.


Nope, it's the same advice, but like two sides of one coin. You know how there's both HEADS and TAILS on a coin, but it's all one coin? It's the same here. 

Right now the dynamic between you two is like a mom and a 2 year old. Our advice is overall to try to get you to see that your part in this is that you keep playing the part of "the mom" and that if you really want to end this way of living, all you have to do is stop being his mom and treat him like an ADULT. 

Another analogy I like to use is that it's a dance. He does a step, you respond with a step, he does with step 2, you do response step 2, and so on. And it looks something like this:

Him Step 1: He choose to play video games all day.
You Response Step 1: "Did you do the trash like you promised?" (knowing full well he didn't because it's overflowing)
Him Step 2: "No I forgot! I'm in the middle of a dungeon just a minute!"
You Response Step 2: (Entering Lecture Mode) "You always do this--make promises and then blow me off! You think I'm your slave? Stop being so selfish and get that trash out right now!"
Him Step 3: "You aren't my boss. I'm in the middle of something. Stop your nagging or I'll shut you up."
You Response Step 3: .... and so on. 

What we are telling you is to STOP DANCING. 

Both "don't let him walk all over you" and "stop controlling him" mean the same thing. You can not make him change or do anything. He may very well choose to be an unemployed, gamer, weed-smoking, loser--it's not wise but it is HIS CHOICE TO MAKE. But on the other side of the coin, just because he chooses that doesn't mean you have to tolerate that kind of person in your life. 

Remember I said it's like building a fence AROUND YOU. You have this nice little fence that protects you and a gate that can stay closed to keep people out who would do you damage or harm. But if someone is kind, gentle, thoughtful and they are the type of person who would build you up, you can choose to open the gate and let them into close relationship with you! You don't "have to." 



> I do nothing for myself because I have to work my life around his training. If I don't, then I am being unsupportive. I can't just go out on these days because he 'needs' the car. If I take the car, I will come home with holes in the walls because I am a 'twisted bitc*'... I am soo confused.


And how's that working for you? It's not working? Then something has to change. And since you CANNOT CHANGE HIM, you will need to be the one doing something different. 

If he is being verbally abusive and physically abusive (punching the walls because he didn't get his way is physically abusive) take photos of the damage he did and call the police. The consequence of choosing to be physically abusive is having a criminal record for ASSAULT. So stop coddling him. Stop letting him get away with not experiencing the consequences of his choices. 

Lotsa, the car is yours. Let him PAY for car payments if he wants to use it. Let him pay for gas if he wants to use it. Let him contribute in some positive way to the household if he wants the FAVOR of using something that is not his. And if he chooses to refuse to do these things, allow him to WALK! If he threatens you because you allow him to walk, record that threat with a VAR, take pictures of any damage, and call the police. Let him learn that making a choice has a COST. 



> Letting him do what he wants = where I am now. Doing the washing, cleaning, finances, working full time, moving the yard and the list goes on. I can not stop doing these things because I have two kids and they deserve to go to school, have a clean house and food on the table. After six years of doing all this, I am just tired!


Then stop doing it. He has a week--stop talking to him and trying to convince him, etc. and just accept that THIS is who he chooses to be. Do you want someone like that inside your fence? If not, let him go. 

The trick is trying the exact opposite of what you've been doing. Do a 180 degree turn-- a U-turn -- and let him go.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
I believe you are acting in the roll of his mother, not his wife. You support him, both financially and emotionally even in the light of his betrayal and his irresponsibility. You are treating him as a mother would and he is treating you like a spoiled child would treat a parent. He is insolent towards you and misbehaves at every opportunity and yet you feel "obligated" to him. This is a very unhealthy dynamic and even more so for your children. Their father is psychologically and emotionally their equal, not their superior as a parent should and need be.

I am a proponent for R in most instances but your H is so immature as to be in need of a mother, not a wife. Only his chronological age is above that of a child. In all other aspects he exhibits the traits of a spoiled rotten child and you are enabling his behavior, as his parents no doubt did before you.

You need to try to move back home and get as much support and assistance from your family as they can offer until you can regain employment and become self sufficient once again. Find a man who has matured beyond adolescence and rebuild your family. This is the best option for your kids at this point and yourself as well. The longer you continue in this arrangement the longer your children are exposed to the actions of an immature spoiled child that they perceive as a roll model and may emulate.

Also, your concern for this man is misplaced. You have stated that "he has nowhere to go" as if he is some helpless child. This is supposedly a full grown adult male and yet you have more concern for his well being than he does. In so doing you are enabling him to perpetuate this lifestyle at your expense. He believes that this is how life is and until he is forced to see that it is not, he has no reason to change and will not, no matter how much you believe otherwise.

If you desire a family and a future then you will be forever disappointed with this individual, he simply is no where near mature enough to provide either. This is the reality of your situation. It is now up to you to change it or accept it. Good fortune to you.


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

Affaircare said:


> Lotsa,
> 
> I hear the frustration in your voice even across the internet, so I want to let you know that you are not hearing the true message and I'm going to try one more time to go through what you wrote and what you're doing...and what a 180 would look like.
> 
> ...


Thank you, thank you, thank you. I finally get it! I just always wanted to be the supportive wife. I just thought that we were Supposed to help each other when we entered this marriage. I have tried harder because English is his second language. But he is fluent now and he doesn't need English to clean the house... you are 100% right, it's just not working. 
After reading this, I put it into practice for the first time. I have 4 day holiday for Easter. I just cleaned out the boxes that have been sitting there since we moved in 3 months ago while he played video games. I asked him to do it soo many times. Of course it just didn't get done. I left boxes that needed to go downstairs and it was effort for him to take three. Even then, he just dumped them on the floor where the car should go. He wanted 'help' to move things around and put them in the rack. When I said 'no' , he left them there and has now locked himself in the room with his computer.... I changed the password on the internet and said that I pay for it an when he contributes, he can use it. **** is about to hit the fan! 
I will follow your advice and let you know how I go. If I need advice, could you help me? I really want to turn my life around, enough is enough!


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## Augusto (Aug 14, 2013)

holy wall of text batman......um.....yeah.......you deserve better.....send him packing with his computer and video games shoved up his lifeless @ss. Halo, Judge Judy, and The Price Is Right was his gig for a marriage and then he gets a girlfriend on the side and manipulates you to thinking moving will solve all of your problems.


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> I believe you are acting in the roll of his mother, not his wife. You support him, both financially and emotionally even in the light of his betrayal and his irresponsibility. You are treating him as a mother would and he is treating you like a spoiled child would treat a parent. He is insolent towards you and misbehaves at every opportunity and yet you feel "obligated" to him. This is a very unhealthy dynamic and even more so for your children. Their father is psychologically and emotionally their equal, not their superior as a parent should and need be.
> 
> I am a proponent for R in most instances but your H is so immature as to be in need of a mother, not a wife. Only his chronological age is above that of a child. In all other aspects he exhibits the traits of a spoiled rotten child and you are enabling his behavior, as his parents no doubt did before you.
> ...


Thank you, I really appreciate your response. I am going to move on. I just can't deal with this any more. You are right, he is a bad role model for our children. He had a really bad upbringing himself and I guess I have really taken that into consideration. However, I didn't have a great one either and I made a choice to turn my life around. He could too. 
My niece from my home town and who is not much younger than me moved in yesterday after leaving a man who has done something similar. I am a teacher and can always get my old job back but am currently working for the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Japan and as this is a fantastic career stepping stone for me, I don't want to move home. 
I just have to figure out how to get him out of my house now. He now knows I do not want this relationship any more and that I will no longer pay for anything. I have even changed my internet password (although he just thinks I am 'hopeless' and stuffed it up by changing the power point when I rearranged the lounge.. but it's a start. 
Again, thank you for your post. It really makes me more determined now I know I am not being just a bad wife. 
Thank you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Lotsa said:


> I have tried this. Honestly,


You have completely misunderstood what AffairCare said.



Lotsa said:


> I have NEVER made him do what he doesn't want to do. His video game playing, not working and not doing anything around the house has been going on for 6 years!! He says he wants to study, * I help him with his application and support him by helping him with difficult questions.. * he quits because he wants to do something else. He wants to join the defence force, *I help him with his applicaiton*... he changes his mind. He wasnts to open his own jiu jitsu school, *I support him by moving 12 hours away from my family! * After two years of him only training himself and no desire to set up his school without ME doing everything, I have had enough.


For your 180, do not do anything like this anymore. Do not listen to him talk about his empty pipe dreams. Do not help him with anything at all. He’s playing with you.. he has no intention of following through anyway.


Lotsa said:


> He takes my car to jiu jitsu 5 nights a week without my complaint. BUT if I tell him I have to work late just one night on these days, he gets into a rage!


Take your car keys away from him and do not let him use your car anymore. That’s also part of your 180. Do not give him any help or support at all.


Lotsa said:


> I have supported him getting his security licence, he finally got a job, worked for 3 months and then quit! We run out of money and he doesn't care! He just knows I will figure it out. I can forget about it because we have kids to feed. So I work longer hours to support them. !


Do are unfortunately stuck supporting your children on your own. But you do not have to support him. Do not let him have any access to any money.


Lotsa said:


> Everyone keeps on telling me to not let him walk all over me, then I have you telling me that I have to stop trying to 'control' him. !





Lotsa said:


> I do nothing for myself because I have to work my life around his trarining. If I don't, then I am being unsupportive. I can't just go out on these days because he 'needs' the car. If I take the car, I will come home with holes in the walls because I am a 'twisted bitc*'... I am soo confused.


Do not let him use the car. Go out and do things. Get a VAR (voice activated recorder) and have it on you all the time when he’s around. That way you can capture his angry outburst.



Lotsa said:


> Letting him do what he wants = where I am now. Doing the washing, cleaning, finances, working full time, moving the yard and the list goes on. I can not stop doing these things becuase I have two kids and they deserve to go to school, have a clean house and food on the table. After six years of doing all this, I am just tired!


Yes you have to keep taking care of your children. But you do not have to be supportive of him. You do not have to provide him even one penny to spend. You do not have to let him use your car. Keep recording his angry outbursts. You can even get a hidden spy camera and put in the ‘public’ areas of your home. That way you can catch him on video in his angry outbursts. 

Is he still sleeping in the same bed with you?

Check your state laws for recording conversations and videotaping. So that you know what you can and cannot use as evidence. Keep collecting evidence and store it in a safe place. And do not let him know you are doing this. At some point it just might come in handy.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

OldWolf57 said:


> What you do is go back to those agencies, and tell them you are going to the the papers and see if they will do will your story, of how they won't help you after all the horror stories in the news of agencies not doing enough.
> 
> With kids and violence, it's time for you to play dirty.


I was thinking of some thing along these lines. Get the evidence, keep collecting photos, videos and even using hidden video cam.

Then if the agencies and the police/courts will not do anything go to the press and/or put it up on you tube. 

We had on guy on here whose wife was horribly verbally/emotionally abuse. No one, to include the counselor, believed him. So he got recordings and put them online. He played them for the counselor... who after hearing the recordings realized that the his wife and been lying to make herself look good. 

At some point all that might come in handy. If you don't have it, then if the time comes when it will help you will be SOL.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Affaircare said:


> Have you let all his clothes get dirty?


I'm not copying Affiarcare's excellent post as it's sooo long. But this one statement popped out at me.

If you have been doing his laundry stop doing it. If he wants clean clothing it's his job to see to it.


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## Mr Blunt (Jul 18, 2012)

Take the evidence of the 18 holes in the wall, the pictures of him slapping your children, etc. to an attorney. Tell the attorney that you want him to get the authorities to protect your children. *Ask the attorney to tell what other evidence you need and keep getting all the evidence that will stand up in court or will give your attorney ammunition to make the authorities do their job.*

I am amazed that you keep thinking that you are at fault or that you are a bad wife. From what you wrote that is ridiculous; and you are a very good woman and mother. *Get all the help that you can to help build you up because he has torn you down*. From what you wrote you should not have even entertained the thought that you are at fault for his very destructive actions. That is the result of a good woman being manipulated by a punk.

I hope that you get someone in your city that can help you rebuild your shattered emotions so that you can become even stronger. Your husband is going to need a strong force to make him pay for his own consequences. As long as she can suck off you he will. What a weak and pitiful man he is!


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

Affaircare's post on 180 was very informative. Glad you got it! 

I can imagine it will be tough for parts of the implementation and some days you won't want to even try, but you stick in there, you can do it and get rid of the parasite. You have carried the burden long enough!


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
It is encouraging to read that you now can see that this boy is of no use in a relationship. I understand about not wanting to go back home due to the excellent job opportunity, that's what motivated, mature people do with their lives. You left your family, moved 12 hours away, found an excellent job and are moving forward with life. What is he doing with the same opportunity? Floundering.

As to getting him out, approach it as you would a child. What would make a child want to leave? Take away the fun and all the things you do for him and he will immediately start looking for another mother. Good fortune to you.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lotsa said:


> So where do I go from here?


You really have to ask?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Lotsa said:


> I just have to figure out how to get him out of my house now.


Don't waste your time. Just start applying for jobs back in your home town. Once you get a good one there, give your two weeks' notice at your current job, line up an apartment back home, AND MOVE.

Let him figure out how to pay for this place. It's his problem now. And you'll be back where you and your kids belong, near your family.


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

NoChoice said:


> OP,
> It is encouraging to read that you now can see that this boy is of no use in a relationship. I understand about not wanting to go back home due to the excellent job opportunity, that's what motivated, mature people do with their lives. You left your family, moved 12 hours away, found an excellent job and are moving forward with life. What is he doing with the same opportunity? Floundering.
> 
> As to getting him out, approach it as you would a child. What would make a child want to leave? Take away the fun and all the things you do for him and he will immediately start looking for another mother. Good fortune to you.


Thank you. I just now realise that I am not the one to blame. 

So here is an update...

he has done nothing but stay in his room all day. He set up his game in and just lays there playing. He has seen this Easter weekend as an opportunity to sleep the opportunity to sleep in and relax. (Of course he needs it). He got really angry at the kids for waking up at 630am and smacked my son because he should be able to sleep in in the mornings. 
Now, I had washing in and as soon as it finished, he pulled it out, threw it in a pile on the floor and put his own in. (This was his kids washing mind you). 
His Son was acting up inside while I was hanging out the washing and bit my niece, he just lay in bed. I came upstairs and asked him why he couldn't deal with it. He said, 'Why? Cant you deal with it?' And just went back to playing his game. 

He has not looked after children at all the past two days and done nothing as usual. 
I just want to ask him to leave. 

I appreciate your advice on up and leaving but this house is in my name and my name only. I did this because I needed the security. I just want to know if I should just ask him to leave immediately. I have told him he has time to find a place and get a job but I just can't handle this any more. 

Please, what should I do?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Get a lawyer to kick him out.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

Lotsa, 

I'm sorry, I've tried to review but I can not find it, so I apologize. 

As I understand the facts, you are the sole owner of the property, but you are married and this is the home where "the family" lives. Thus depending on the state you live in, and whether it's community property or common law, the home may be considered the marital home.

For example, in a community property state, the home would only be considered separate property if it were acquired by the spouse prior to the marriage or as a gift or inheritance. In a common law property state, it would be harder to prove it's separate property and plus common law property states use equitable distribution to divide property (in other words they don't care if it's separate property or not). 

Sooooo...taking only this into account there are two legal ways to get him out: file a motion for "exclusive possession" or evict him with an Order of Protection or Restraining Order. 

The first option assumes that divorce has already been filed, and essentially what you'd be doing is petitioning the judge to order who gets to remain in the marital home. The difficulty with this option is that a) you would need to file for divorce first, b) you would present your reasons and proof and he would present his reasons and proof, and c) a person who is a stranger basically decides for you who gets to live in the house and it may not go the way you hope. 

The second option requires you to show that there is some form of extreme harassment and or physical abuse. Usually something like this: "the physical or mental well-being of either spouse or their children is jeopardized by the occupancy of the marital residence by both spouses." You would start with a Temporary Restraining Order, and usually I suggest that people go to the nearest Family Violence Law Center or Domestic Violence Center and get some help. That is to say, you can probably file it on your own without needing an attorney, but at the DV Center they'll have people who have done it before in your state and they can help you figure out what would be good evidence, and what would not. 

Usually to get a Temporary Protective or Restraining Order, you would:
1) Find the Legal Self-Help Center for your county and get the application for a PO/RO. Honestly the form is usually online and if you need help, PM me with your state and I'll see if I can help you find the right form. 
2) Fill out the form and submit it to Family Court. 
3) You will need to present some evidence to the court that demonstrates you qualify for an order. You can use medical records from medical care for injuries you suffered, photographs of bruises or injuries or photographs of damaged property, unwelcome or threatening text messages, tape recordings of threatening or harassing voice-mails, e-mails, and/or testimony from witnesses who may have seen or heard the abuse. This is often done the day you turn in the application, and it's not a huge trial--more like the judge needs to have reasonable reason to grant the Order. 
4) Usually TROs/TPOs are granted pretty quick--about 48 hours maybe?--and you are giving a hearing date for the PERMANENT ORDER. In most states a permanent order is for years!!
5) You serve the TRO/TPO on the restrained party. The Order itself will give them instructions, but usually you have an off-duty police officer serve the paperwork and it says something like "the officer will stay in your presence while you pack a suitcase and will escort you off the premises." 
6) The person who serves the Temporary Order fills out a Proof of Service (so your hubby can't say 'I didn't come to court because I never got this!'). That's why people usually hire an off-duty police officer, but really anyone who is an adult and not a party in the case can serve it. 
7) Usually it's anywhere from 30-90 days before the Permanent Order hearing. 
8) Between serving the Order and the Permanent hearing, you gather your best evidence. Again, you can use medical records from medical care for injuries you or your kids suffered, photographs of bruises or injuries your or your kids suffered, photographs of damaged property, printed copies of unwelcome or threatening text messages, tape recordings of threatening or harassing voice-mails, printed out e-mails, and/or testimony from witnesses who may have seen or heard the abuse. 

So I would say your next move is to either actually file divorce, asking for exclusive possession -OR- contact the nearest Domestic Violence Center and look for help with filing a Temporary Protective Order. Based on what you've said about him hitting you and the kids, punching the walls, and threatening you, I'd say you have a reasonable case even if you already talked to some people about it and they were "less than encouraging." See...here's the problem: you spoke to cops who would really prefer to NOT GET INVOLVED unless there is an actual crime being committed AT THE MOMENT, and even then their biggest concern is officer safety, not saving the life of the citizen. (Okay not all cops, but I mean the attitude of the ones you met.) Also they are not Domestic Violence experts--the folks at the DV Center ARE!!

Another thing you might want to do is start researching the laws for your state so you are informed about your rights in the case of divorce and in the case of Orders. If you can, just Google something like "state laws domestic violence orders" and find your state and read! Learn! 

I'd suggest that you take an inventory of your life and a typical day right now. Think about what life would be like with no partner in the home--what things would you do to handle it? Then, begin figuring out a way to do those things NOW. For example, if he did move out and you two divorced, he'd no longer be home to watch the kids while you are at work teaching. What would you do? Have them in daycare or before- and after-school care? If so, figure out a way to get them there now, living life as if you were a single. Do YOUR grocery shopping for you and the kids; do YOUR laundry for you and the kids; and carry on with the life you choose as happily as possible. Don't feed him, don't clean up after him, don't give him your car, don't do one thing for him and keep telling him you expect him to move out. Give him a deadline (such as "You have one week and then I want you out!") so that it doesn't seem like he can stay "until he's made arrangements." Know what I mean? And then as much as possible just ignore him and carry on with being YOU. Don't be a nag, and don't interact with him. Like I said, let him sink or swim on his own, AND the less contact you have with him, the better: one word replies or no reply at all!!

Finally, I will caution you on one thing: it is a personal pet-peeve of mine when people are in a contentious divorce and they use allegations of violence to gain an upper hand in custody and possession of the house. So I will warn you that in my opinion, if you are actually experiencing name-calling and threats and rage...then it is legitimate to use the remedies available to you. But if you are enhancing the story, then it harms the many many men and women who are legitimately trying to get away from domestic violence to use that as a legal tool. I would STRONGLY ADVISE you to not use an order as a legal tool, remembering that not all domestic violence is one person balling up their fist and slugging the other person! Verbal abuse, mental abuse, emotional abuse, financial abuse are all REAL and LEGITIMATE domestic violence as well.


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

Thank you affair care. I really appreciate this response. 
I really don't need to practice being single. I have kept my kids in daycare and after school care as he left with the other woman twice leaving me to find emergency care for them so I could work. He refused to take care of them while I worked even though he didn't have a job. I also do the grocery shopping on the weekends as he can't do it by himself during the week. 

I will hope that he just leaves the house without doing all that to him. As we speak, he is packing all his things. I am certain the person who picks him up with be the other woman...

I understand your concern about crying wolf but in my case, I honestly think I have enough evidence to suggest that he needs to stay away. I have even recorded his actions towards the kids in the last few days and they haven't been good. 
He does however have a fantastic way of making me feel like the abusive one by asking him to find work or help with the kids or clean the house. He calls this 'emotional abuse' because I won't 'support' him. This really used to make me feel terrible.

I just have to stay strong and go through with this. I love him, I do.. BUT he is not a good role model my kids and honestly has never been. He won't work and carries on every time something is not done 'his' way. The house is always an anxious one because his tone is always threatening. I can now see this coming out in my son. It frightens me. We can all be happy, laughing and having a great time but he will come home and in two seconds we will all be in tears. My has written things in her diary at school that really concern me. 

I never thought I would ever end up divorced and always wanted the perfect family. It hurts sooo bad...


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

As a victim of physical and mental abuse when I was a child, it would be better if your husband is gone from your children's life until he becomes stable. He is a factor in bringing out the worse traits in your children, and it is your job to protect them because they lack the ability to protect themselves.

Your love for your husband is your brain going through the hyper bonding when things are not so bad. Once you detach from him, the love goggles will be removed, and you will wonder what you saw in him. Love is a drive, and you were motivated to keep him in your life. If you look up research on why victims of abuse stay in abusive relationships, you will find a lot of common traits that you share with them. You will also learn the biological mechanism that kept you hooked onto him.


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## Lotsa (Mar 31, 2015)

UPDATE: I took everyone's advice and asked my cheating husband to leave. There was no fight. He asked to stay but I said no. He packed his things and left. It's been a week and things were going fine. I let him see the kids as much as he wanted to. He seems to be a better father when they are not 'annoying' him every second. I just gave him one condition; That if he was still seeing the OW the other woman does not have ANY contact with my kids. Well, he took out son for the day and when he dropped him home I realised he had no car.. he was starting to walk around the corner. I jumped in my car and followed him and there he was driving HER car!!! 
I called him and told him never to come to my home again. He went on a rant to say that he was just borrowing her car to see the kids that nothing was going on between them etc. So he leaves the OW to go back to his wife. Cut all contact with her 'apparently' and now she just decided to lend him her car for a few days a WEEK after I asked him to leave... Yep, while I was at work supporting him, he was still cheating on my for sure...


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