# Passive aggressives and their anger



## katiecrna

passive aggressive people don't know how to handle their anger. Many of them hold it in, and then do this subtle passive punishing thing to their spouses. And they can never directly admit that they're angry or upset with you so then really never gets addressed and dealt with properly. My question is... Do you think these passive aggressive people even recognize that they are angry? I would love to hear from people who were diagnosed with passive aggressive personality or anyone who has dealt with them. I just don't understand their thinking. I'm angry so I'm going to subtly make them pay? How does this make anything better? Do they think this makes things better! I just don't understand at all.


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## Altair

Having been married to a passive aggressive individual I can say from experience they are not aware they're doing it and they don't realize they're angry nor do they realize how much damage they're doing by being impossible to communicate with. Nothing gets fixed, the problems just get buried until they're so out of control it's beyond repair.


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## 5Creed

I was married to one for many years and I do not think they know what to do with the angry feelings. They don't deal with anger at all and so it comes out in other ways. I have only come to recognize this since we have been going through a divorce that he was like this as a boy; grew up like this and his mother is the exact same way. I feel if counseling had worked for us, that he would have learned how to deal with his feelings more effectively and not stuff most of them down. I truly think anger is a very scary emotion for them. So rather than deal directly with the person they are having the feelings toward, they will just make them pay in other little snarky ways and/or comments.


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## Síocháin

I asked my therapist this very same question. And her answer was no. Passive aggressive people will do everything they can to keep from feeling or showing emotion. It is brutal for the spouses. Because as you and others said, nothing gets resolved. My STBXH has no empathy and I feel mimics emotion. It isn't real. Because if they can't feel their anger, they can't feel love either. I point blank asked my STBXH why was he passive aggressive? I have said many times I had rather be told no or the truth. His response, "I don't know. I only do it to you". Nice huh? That is just how he operates and how he is probably operating now. He doesn't think there is anything wrong with him and it is always someone else's fault. I know why he is like he is, and I grieve for that terribly abused little boy. But, it was his choice to become the cold, selfish, hateful man that he is now. Unless they become self-aware, you are in for a world of hurt. I am sorry but you are going to have to accept who he is since you are choosing to stay. You're not ready yet but there will come a point when you draw the line and actually mean it. Then he will most likely leave you because you no longer give him his passive aggressive payoff.

ETA: I no longer search for answers why he did what he did. I am now looking for answers on why I did what I did and allowed it.


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## farsidejunky

We do know we are angry. But that nasty combination of the want to avoid a confrontation, combined with the want to please people, causes us to bury saying something about it.

So it festers.


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## NextTimeAround

Altair said:


> Having been married to a passive aggressive individual I can say from experience they are not aware they're doing it and they don't realize they're angry nor do they realize how much damage they're doing by being impossible to communicate with. Nothing gets fixed, the problems just get buried until they're so out of control it's beyond repair.


I don't believe that all PA people are angry. I think that they just enjoy the drama that they create.

MyexH had lots of friends and was doing very well professionally. Loved his mother.

So why does he regularly need to "forget"; "not hear" and "not see." and just simply "not understand."

Same with my mother, she does very well socially. I am sure most people would not believethat she has a mean be in her body.

Go head and feel sorry for a PA if you want. But stop looking for some reason to let them off the hook.


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## CuriousBlue

Do the same to them. Then, after a long while, point it out to them. They'll get the message.


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## ericthesane

I cannot answer for any other passive aggressive than myself.

However, I think I am angry, or rather, in the early stages, sometimes annoyed, surprised, frustrated by someone else's statements, questions, comments or requests (demands ?). 

Rather than calling them on it, in the interest of being polite, or thinking 'that is not really how it was meant', or as a matter of social ranking, or not wanting to create conflict, we say 'sure.. ok'... and then... the festering begin until over time, it turns to anger, the annoyance turns to sabotage, the sabotage turns to conflict, and, to avoid it, we go back to the same self-defeating behavior.

I recognized that in myself some years ago, and having recognized such, (tried to) change my behavior. It has proven to be a challenge for me; at ever step, I am mindful of telling myself ' Say what you mean'. Not always with the best of outcomes though. It has for me been a part of a 180: it is a project under construction.

You have to be pretty socially inept to not see that being a PA pisses people off, and that we are angry. Thing is that aggressive people enjoy the anger, PA's fears it.


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## farsidejunky

ericthesane said:


> I cannot answer for any other passive aggressive than myself.
> 
> However, I think I am angry, or rather, in the early stages, sometimes annoyed, surprised, frustrated by someone else's statements, questions, comments or requests (demands ?).
> 
> Rather than calling them on it, in the interest of being polite, or thinking 'that is not really how it was meant', or as a matter of social ranking, or not wanting to create conflict, we say 'sure.. ok'... and then... the festering begin until over time, it turns to anger, the annoyance turns to sabotage, the sabotage turns to conflict, and, to avoid it, we go back to the same self-defeating behavior.
> 
> I recognized that in myself some years ago, and having recognized such, (tried to) change my behavior. It has proven to be a challenge for me; at ever step, I am mindful of telling myself ' Say what you mean'. Not always with the best of outcomes though. It has for me been a part of a 180: it is a project under construction.
> 
> You have to be pretty socially inept to not see that being a PA pisses people off, and that we are angry. Thing is that aggressive people enjoy the anger, PA's fears it.


QFT.


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## NextTimeAround

ericthesane said:


> You have to be pretty socially inept to not see that being a PA pisses people off, and that we are angry. *Thing is that aggressive people enjoy the anger, PA's fears it*.


I don't agree with that. I can see the wry smile or smirk on the face as PA turns the knife and spews the usual excuse ie.

1. I didn't know 
2. I didn't remember
3. just because I accept his or her phone calls and then pass along messages from them to you (as they asked or hoped that I would do) does not mean that I am encouraging them
4. and so on.......

If people really fear anger, they would choose to be people pleasers. there were times when my husband would claim ignorance to something only for me to turn up with information that would prove the contrary. then he had to dance around and find a new excuse for his negligence.


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## ericthesane

Nexttime Around....

As I mentioned, I can only address my own PA tendencies and how I reacted.

That being said, I can see how the quote you referenced make it appear as if I made a blanket statement.

For me, I do not think that I found any pleasure in being called out, or being on the receiving end of someone else's reaction to my PA. I feared it and cowed to it.... again, conflict avoidance is a hallmark of my own PA.

I am working on it. It is difficult.

examples:

1. Work: Colleague calls and says: I have booked you for an on site job in Chicago Wed and thursday next week. I saw that those two days where open on your schedule.

In the old days: I see that he is correct. I say... errr... well, ok... I will try my best to be there. and then, I fail, or show up late.

Nowadays; Yeah.... I am open, but, Monday and Tuesday I am booked for a job in New York and another first thing in Boston on Friday, and heading back to FL. Why did you not friggin look at the week in full before you made a commitment. It is friggin there. You need to find someone else... 

2. Wife: Calls and says: Stop by a market and get (a particular brand of something, and a particular brand of something else)... 

In the old days: I say... errrr... ok... will do what I can... (fully knowing I cannot get them)... gets home with something else..... admonishment and critisism ensue. I get defensive and sulk.

Nowadays: I say: it is 8 in the evening. Those kinds of things can only be found in market ABC and they are closed already or too far away for my comfort. I can get you substitute X or Z....... if you don't want those substitutes... I cannot help you.

admonishments and criticisms ensue... but, I don't sulk: I rather say: to bad. Get them yourself....


There is still anger in me for getting those kinds of requests and demands, but, I try to deal with it right away, and stand my ground.

That being said, it is not always that I am really concious about it, and I sometimes revert to PA behavior.

Now, the drawback is that I am getting divorced. But, I still have a job... you win some, you loose some.

I never felt any satisfaction in letting people down though.... I feared it.

I have a boss (well, we are partners, but I have a smaller share of the co); very aggressive go-getter... he thrives on conflict, and tells people to **** off on a regular basis.... but, 2 hours later, he will call them all smiles, he gets angry,,, then it is in the past, and he moves on. That is what I aim for.


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## Begin again

I think PAs recognize their negative feelings, but don't want to label them as "anger" because being angry isn't viewed as being nice, good, friendly, etc. 

I would say to my STBXH, "why does that make you angry?" And he would respond with, "I'm not angry, I'm just [fill in the blank.] Usually he was frustrated or didn't understand why someone else did something. But he rarely owned up to his anger. And he definitely would be defensive and sulk/pout, but didn't really process anything that I could see. If you just let some time pass and then react the same way the next time something happens you don't care for, you haven't learned anything.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SunnyT

Hmmmmm...... I recognized it in myself with my ex. I didn't recognize it as anger, more like frustration. He wouldn't communicate with me, and when he did....he'd tell me what I think, no matter how much I protested or tried to say MY thoughts. 

I ended up being passive-aggressive, yes....getting my secret, petty digs in when he was such a d*ck. H e refused to discuss family/kid issues, schedules (not his problem), etc.... Oh ya? Well, I think we will all eat Daddy's favorite ice cream since he won't come home and eat with his family. Oh, you are going out on the boat with your friends all weekend and ignoring your family again? Oops, all your clean laundry somehow got mixed up with your dirty laundry. 

In retrospect, oh my gosh it was so petty. (It was a long 23 years, there was a LOT of hurt and frustration on my part.) But it worked.... made me feel better to see him all frustrated and foolish. The satisfaction was real. I couldn't hurt him with my words (Ha! He wouldn't hear them), I couldn't figure out how to leave, I was trying hard to stay....the petty crap was all I had. Kind of a defense due to frustration, but seems more like pay-back. I was certainly aware of it tho. It was mostly in the last 5 years, when I was 40ish, grown, thinking for myself more, seeing things more clearly, wondering about the future....

Whew.... I'm so glad that is over.


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## jld

If you feel someone is being passive aggressive with you, it may be because they do not feel safe being direct. What you can do is make it safe for them.

You don't have to agree with what they say, btw. You can listen and try to understand where they are coming from without getting defensive or reactive.


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## NextTimeAround

jld said:


> If you feel someone is being passive aggressive with you, it may be because they do not feel safe being direct. What you can do is make it safe for them.
> 
> You don't have to agree with what they say, btw. You can listen and try to understand where they are coming from without getting defensive or reactive.


At university, I shared a suite with 2 other women. It was the 80s, so well before the digital age or any time that having a cellphone could fit a stundet budget.

I put an anwering machine on the phone as they were called at the time. The other 2 women were able to access their messages. One was very good about writing down my and the other womans' messages. And I did the same whenever I accessed the answering machine.

What I noticed and what other people who were trying to reach me noticed was that the answering machine was never reset.

It became clear that it was down to one person. I aksed nicely if she could reset the machine once she checked the messages. She said would, she didn't.

Finally accepting that my gentle reminders were getting what I wanted, I asked her is there was something more that I needed to do.

She said "whatever you want, I'm willing to do whatever you want."

So I explained to her that I want the answering machine reset to receive messages since all three of us depend on people who contacting us ...like for study groups.

So I still found the answering machine UN reset after she took messages off. I would ask her what is preventing her from doing it..... trying to have an open honest discussion with her.

Her response was whatever you want that's what I'll do.

Which never happened.
@jld, please tell what I was doing wrong in that scenario.


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## jld

NextTimeAround said:


> At university, I shared a suite with 2 other women. It was the 80s, so well before the digital age or any time that having a cellphone could fit a stundet budget.
> 
> I put an anwering machine on the phone as they were called at the time. The other 2 women were able to access their messages. One was very good about writing down my and the other womans' messages. And I did the same whenever I accessed the answering machine.
> 
> What I noticed and what other people who were trying to reach me noticed was that the answering machine was never reset.
> 
> It became clear that it was down to one person. I aksed nicely if she could reset the machine once she checked the messages. She said would, she didn't.
> 
> Finally accepting that my gentle reminders were getting what I wanted, I asked her is there was something more that I needed to do.
> 
> She said "whatever you want, I'm willing to do whatever you want."
> 
> So I explained to her that I want the answering machine reset to receive messages since all three of us depend on people who contacting us ...like for study groups.
> 
> So I still found the answering machine UN reset after she took messages off. I would ask her what is preventing her from doing it..... trying to have an open honest discussion with her.
> 
> Her response was whatever you want that's what I'll do.
> 
> Which never happened.
> 
> @jld, please tell what I was doing wrong in that scenario.


It does not sound like you were doing anything wrong. For whatever reason, there was some sort of communication or willingness gap there. 

How did you resolve it?


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## peacem

For the PA in my life she does this to maintain the moral high ground. She is very angry, sometimes the things she is angry about do not even involve the person she is being PA with. Being PA she can exorcise her anger without having to apologise for a thing. Particularly when she is pulled up on her behaviour she can maintain the impression that she wholly innocent and possible even a victim of some unfair accusations. It is also an act of childishness and an inability to deal with their feelings in an adult way.


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## NextTimeAround

jld said:


> It does not sound like you were doing anything wrong. For whatever reason, there was some sort of communication or willingness gap there.
> 
> How did you resolve it?


During the spring semester she left me a note asking if I could ensure that the answering machine was set because she was interviewing for summer jobs and she may get some "callbacks" from the initial interviews she had.


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## jld

NextTimeAround said:


> During the spring semester she left me a note asking if I could ensure that the answering machine was set because she was interviewing for summer jobs and she may get some "callbacks" from the initial interviews she had.


So then she started writing down your messages, too?


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## NextTimeAround

jld said:


> So then she started writing down your messages, too?



No, she did not.

This is the problem with PA people. You ask them a direct, open, honest question and then they come back with something canned along the lines of "whatever you want" and sometimes exactly those words.


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## jld

NextTimeAround said:


> No, she did not.
> 
> This is the problem with PA people. You ask them a direct, open, honest question and then they come back with something canned along the lines of "whatever you want" and sometimes exactly those words.


Sorry, I thought your response was in answer to my question of how you resolved the issue.

OP, you cannot make your husband or anyone else be direct with you, at least not that I know of. You can invite it, though. Making it safe for them to do so is a way to do that. 

If you want to go that route, realize it may take a while for you to earn their trust enough to be vulnerable with you. You may have to be patient and persistent in modeling and treating them with respect before you are treated that way in return.

And some people may never be direct. For whatever reason, possibly having nothing to do with you, they may just never be able to do it. Those people probably do not belong in your life, or at least not in any primary capacity, at least imo.


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## NextTimeAround

jld said:


> Sorry, I thought your response was in answer to my question of how you resolved the issue.
> 
> OP, you cannot make your husband or anyone else be direct with you, at least not that I know of. You can invite it, though. Making it safe for them to do so is a way to do that.
> 
> If you want to go that route, realize it may take a while for you to earn their trust enough to be vulnerable with you. You may have to be patient and persistent in modeling and treating them with respect before you are treated that way in return.
> 
> *And some people may never be direct. For whatever reason, possibly having nothing to do with you, they may just never be able to do it. Those people probably do not belong in your life, or at least not in any primary capacity, at least im*o.


okay, at least we got that straight.


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## Síocháin

Being with someone who is passive aggressive is a soul sucking experience. It makes you not trust anyone especially yourself. You turn into someone who you just do not recognize and your self-esteem and confidence are gone. They blame you for everything. It is very hurtful behavior to those on the receiving end of it. Until you live with someone who is that way, you cannot truly understand what it is like.


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## Blondilocks

NextTimeAround said:


> During the spring semester she left me a note asking if I could ensure that the answering machine was set because she was interviewing for summer jobs and she may get some "callbacks" from the initial interviews she had.


Please tell me you forgot to write down her messages before resetting.


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## Blondilocks

I find it funny that in a forum for 'Long Term Success in Marriage' someone starts a thread about passive-aggressives.


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## NextTimeAround

Blondilocks said:


> Please tell me you forgot to write down her messages before resetting.




This is one time that I can't remember what I did. I don't think she got a summer job either. OTOH, she would blow hot and cold. If I say hello, she might ignore me. Then on another day would initiate conversation like I'm supposed to come when called. She had a couple of friends in our grad program but people who knew me would tell me that she was weird. 

These days, my patience is much shorter. I don't care someone is PA, narcissistic or just plain shy. If I am asked to repeat myself more than once, I just "oh, you'll figure it out." If I ask for something more than twice and don't get it, I am already figuring how to go around you. People who "forget", quite often "didn't see anything" or "didn't hear anything" are also people I don't have much patience with. People who value a friendship with me will try a little harder; and if they don't a little harder then it's best we part ways.


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## Idyit

Interesting thread. My wife is PA, even self proclaiming that she is the queen of PA. Her anger is mostly just below the surface and I realize which subjects will make it surface. Our kids even see it.

Just yesterday my 14yo and I were talking about a run in he had with mom. She described him as being non compliant and refusing to do as she said. When I asked him about it he said "Mom asked me a question. I answered it." Ah, there's the miscommunication. Mom sees herself as having a primary characteristic of harmony. (Not sure of her source. Maybe a personality test type of thing) So, she will ask a question to her 14yo son that is actually a demand, met with anger when he doesn't respond correctly. Son was confused and rightly so. I told him that some times when mommy asks a question she is actually trying to tell you something. My advice was to straight up ask if she's asking or telling. Sucks that he has to be on the defensive with his own mother but he is learning some valuable lessons.

The anger associated with PA is interesting. In my situation the W is so PA she proclaims it, then flips it upside down and describes it as a virtue by calling it a 'harmony' personality trait. :scratchhead:

~ Passio


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## Blondilocks

"The anger associated with PA is interesting. In my situation the W is so PA she proclaims it, then flips it upside down and describes it as a virtue by calling it a 'harmony' personality trait."

That's some serious spinning. It's almost scary to think how her mind operates.


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## Idyit

Blondilocks said:


> "The anger associated with PA is interesting. In my situation the W is so PA she proclaims it, then flips it upside down and describes it as a virtue by calling it a 'harmony' personality trait."
> 
> That's some serious spinning. It's almost scary to think how her mind operates.


Well, it is my fault that I drove her to anger by disrupting her harmony. Because she's not an angry person. :wtf:

~ Passio


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## jb02157

Síocháin said:


> I asked my therapist this very same question. And her answer was no. Passive aggressive people will do everything they can to keep from feeling or showing emotion. It is brutal for the spouses. Because as you and others said, nothing gets resolved. My STBXH has no empathy and I feel mimics emotion. It isn't real. Because if they can't feel their anger, they can't feel love either. I point blank asked my STBXH why was he passive aggressive? I have said many times I had rather be told no or the truth. His response, "I don't know. I only do it to you". Nice huh? That is just how he operates and how he is probably operating now. He doesn't think there is anything wrong with him and it is always someone else's fault. I know why he is like he is, and I grieve for that terribly abused little boy. But, it was his choice to become the cold, selfish, hateful man that he is now. Unless they become self-aware, you are in for a world of hurt. I am sorry but you are going to have to accept who he is since you are choosing to stay. You're not ready yet but there will come a point when you draw the line and actually mean it. Then he will most likely leave you because you no longer give him his passive aggressive payoff.
> 
> ETA: I no longer search for answers why he did what he did. I am now looking for answers on why I did what I did and allowed it.


I wonder if you can diagnose passive aggressiveness the other way around by first noticing that the person is not capable of feeling love and is cold and and selfish.


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## Síocháin

@jb02157,
For me, it was there. I confused the coldness with him being introverted which is what he said he was. He really isn't. The selfishness was there as well but not constant like it became at the end of the marriage. My therapist put it best, "he constantly pulled the rug out from under me whenever I got close to getting something I wanted in the marriage". The signs were there, I was just too fearful to face them until it finally had to be faced.


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## NextTimeAround

jb02157 said:


> I wonder if you can diagnose passive aggressiveness the other way around by first noticing that the person is not capable of feeling love and is cold and and selfish.



I believe that PAs are selective. I have seen my mother and my exH become uber attentive to other people. IF PAs have any friends, they could not possible be P all the time.


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## jb02157

Síocháin said:


> @jb02157,
> For me, it was there. I confused the coldness with him being introverted which is what he said he was. He really isn't. The selfishness was there as well but not constant like it became at the end of the marriage. My therapist put it best, "he constantly pulled the rug out from under me whenever I got close to getting something I wanted in the marriage". The signs were there, I was just too fearful to face them until it finally had to be faced.


I think I'm headed the same direction, that's why I ask, although for my wife I think it's just coldness and selfishness not necessarily passive aggressive behavior. I was curious if you had some of the characteristics these people are, could you eventually be one of them.


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## Blondilocks

jb02157 said:


> I think I'm headed the same direction, that's why I ask, although for my wife I think it's just coldness and selfishness not necessarily passive aggressive behavior. I was curious if you had some of the characteristics these people are, could you eventually be one of them.


Passive aggressive behavior is a learned behavior. Also, the person employing the behavior can choose when to utilize and with whom.


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## Idyit

Blondilocks said:


> Passive aggressive behavior is a learned behavior. Also, the person employing the behavior can choose when to utilize and with whom.


PA as a stand alone behavior is likely controllable. Do you think that this behavior is linked to other issues of mental health? Ie. similar non-empathy in PA behavior also is prevalent in NPD/BPD. Thus not as likely to be controlled.

~ Passio


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## Blondilocks

Idyit said:


> PA as a stand alone behavior is likely controllable. *Do you think that this behavior is linked to other issues of mental health? * Ie. similar non-empathy in PA behavior also is prevalent in NPD/BPD. Thus not as likely to be controlled.
> 
> ~ Passio


I suppose it could be but not necessarily. The instances I've witnessed have been where there is an imbalance of power.


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## Síocháin

Passive Aggressive Disorder was in the DSM-IV. However, it has since been removed and lumped in with NPD in DSM-V. Wish I didn't know so much about it.


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## Idyit

Blondilocks said:


> I suppose it could be but not necessarily. The instances I've witnessed have been where there is an *imbalance of power*.


Yup. I get this. I'm asking from a particular perspective as you've probably guessed. 

But why is the imbalance of power there? I one spouse simply selfish, NPD, BPD, some other thing. Trying to figure out if PA behavior is a tool frequently used by the more clinical spectrum types or simply poor behavior.

~ Passio


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## Síocháin

@Idyit

I think it can be both. Most of us have been passive aggressive at times (poor behavior). But, when you confront someone about their PA behavior and they keep doing it anyway, I think that is more on the clinical spectrum. Because they just don't see it and they simply don't care. It works for them. Keep in mind, I am not a mental health professional but basing this on my experience for the last 20 plus years.


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## Mrs.Sav

Blondilocks said:


> "The anger associated with PA is interesting. In my situation the W is so PA she proclaims it, then flips it upside down and describes it as a virtue by calling it a 'harmony' personality trait."
> 
> That's some serious spinning. It's almost scary to think how her mind operates.


I agree. She sounds very manipulative.


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## NextTimeAround

Blondilocks said:


> I suppose it could be but not necessarily. The instances I've witnessed have been where there is an imbalance of power.




I have notiaced when I move on - show that I don't care - that's when the negotiating start. I know better now. I will not negotiate with a PA I will just take them for a ride.


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## Síocháin

You can't negotiate with a PA. They will tell you exactly what you want to hear to get you to back off and do what they want anyway. Been there, done that, so done.

ETA: If you make a request like please don't drive in a tropical storm, they take it as telling them what to do. No matter how nicely you ask.


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## Joey2k

farsidejunky said:


> We do know we are angry. But that nasty combination of *the want to avoid a confrontation, combined with the want to please people*, causes us to bury saying something about it.
> 
> So it festers.


As well as coming to the conclusion that your feelings and the things you want are not important to and don't matter to the other person, and that expressing yourself will be useless. Which I think is why someone can be PA to one person and not to others.


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## Síocháin

Unless you're on the receiving end of a PA relationship, the damage that is done is beyond hurtful....it is brutal. Most PAs exhibit behavior in all areas of their lives. My STBXH did even though he told me it was limited to just me. I saw it with his family, friends and work. I just got it 24/7 because I lived with him.

If it's limited to one person, I would say that demonstrates bad behavior as opposed to being on the clinical spectrum. I think we all have PA tendencies at some point in our lives.


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## prunus

This thread made my eyes water and gave me a lump in my throat. This is the story of my marriage. I wasted so many years on something that couldn't be fixed.


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## ericthesane

Blondilocks said:


> I suppose it could be but not necessarily. The instances I've witnessed have been where there is an imbalance of power.


Very True.... I AM a PA, and power was certainly a trigger for me. The higher the imbalance, the more likely I was (still am, but working on it) to be a PA.

Power, multiplied by the intensity of the request. In re-reading and thinking back, I do remember a time when I was asked, on relatively short notice, to take a friend of my wife to the airport. (btw.. the friend asked me directly, and, I frequently go there on my own as I travelled extensively for work at the time).

I had already made another commitment for the time in question. My PA instincts told me to say 'sure.. no problem' (knowing fully well that it would be impossible to do so, but, the **** would hit fan at a later time)..... but.. because the power situation was relatively even, and she was almost apologetic for asking me, I was able to say 'I have already existing commitments, so I have to say no'.

Had it been my wife, or one of the ex bosses I have dealt with (relative power), and the request came in as an order(intensity of request/demand} ... I would have said.... sure, no problem.... and then, when the time came, missed that with a stupid excuse, seriously pissing them off, or failed to show on the other appointment.

The mantra is 'It is ok to say no, it is ok to say no, it is ok to say no'...... it is work in progress.


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