# I used to love my wife



## st5555

Greetings,

My wife and I are now 69 years old and been married since we were twenty.
She was my first serious girlfriend and we were both virgins.

I used to love and adore her more than anything.

My wife used to have a very violent temper. Once while under the effects of PMS she tore a cupboard door off its hinges and threw it at me.

Before retirement, I owned a small business and had a home office.

About twenty years ago, I was the executor of my father's estate. One day my wife appears at my inner office door and announced she was taking my inheritance and "hoped" it didn't cause a rift in our marriage as she deserved it. Well, it certainly did. I didn't say anything at the time, but for the rest of that summer, I couldn't decide whether to get a divorce or commit suicide. I am a master of passive/aggressive and try to avoid direct confrontation.

Since I had a home office, the idea of moving out and divorcing her seemed like a lot of work as I'd also have to move the office and all the inventory. It just seemed a lot easier to commit suicide. Of course being in deep depression didn't help either. I ended up not doing either, but instead made an appointment with a therapist we visited a few years prior.

She was verbally abusive and I came to the conclusion that due to the way she was treating me, she couldn't possibly love me because you don't treat people you love like that. So I fell out of love with her. The term I use is that she beat it out of me, even though it was just verbal.

It came out in counseling that I no longer loved her as I still believed she couldn't possibly love me. This of course concerned her very much. We made good progress in counseling and a few months later, she asked if I loved her again. I lied and said I did. 

To her credit, she tried very hard to make things better, but to this day, I have no real feelings for her. I hate buying birthday/mother's day cards which spout love and devotion. I am the great pretender. Pretending to love her, pretending I care. 

Even though she's been much better these past few years, I feel I'll never love or care for her again.

Each Spring, she'll go to Florida with her sisters and a few friends. This gives me two weeks of bachelorhood to enjoy life without her. A few years ago, I was at my brother's house during this time and my sister-in-law asked if I missed her. Without thinking, I replied, "No." That seemed to surprise everyone and I realized I had slipped up. I failed at being the great pretender. Which brings the question to mind, how long could she be gone before I would miss her? I know for certain two weeks isn't enough. Perhaps I'd never miss her.

She is an excellent caregiver. She tends to all my needs and keeps the house in good shape. 

Our marriage has been much better the past few years, but the great tragedy is I'm in a loveless marriage and I don't think I ever find it again.


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## fto0293

Hello and welcome to TAM. I am sorry you found us because of your situation, but hope that you will be able to receive good advice from some of the more experienced members here. 

For full disclosure, I'm much younger than you are and am single, so I can't claim to have experienced anything close to what you have, but I will say that your wife's behavior as described reminds me a lot of my mother. Her relationship with my dad is not ideal, to put it mildly. 

I wish I had better advice for you, but will be rooting for you.


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## EleGirl

It does sound like your marriage has been something of a rollercoaster.

You say that things have been much better for the last few years. So that's positive. 

Do the two of you do spend much time together? If so, what do you do during these times? I'm asking because it sounds like there is very little connection between the two of you. And spending time together is the best way to rebuild that. 

Do you have any children? You don't mention any.


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## aquarius1

Thanks for coming to TAM. Sorry this is happening. 

Marriages takes a lot of challenges over the years. 

Verbal behaviour, passive aggressive stuff, unmet needs and unspoken ones, life circumstances, work and the addition of the major challenges of children plus our own medical needs, not to mention aging. It can wear a person out.

To answer your question, does it bother you that you dont miss her? I think it might, since you posted here.

Are you interested in rediscovering that love? Or are you “done” as far as the marriage is concerned?

Love can be resurrected in certain cases. Ive done it.

It doesnt change the history, but the key is to reinvent the relationship based on where you are right now.

Is that something that you are interested in doing? Or would you prefer to start over?


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## SunCMars

Once, and then repeatedly burned, the fore love-skin loses its sensitivity.

Our minds take a set, as does concrete, any attempt at further smoothing cannot remove the old painful and flawed deep feelings.

Your rational mind refuses to comply with the reality of your situation. It know what it feels.

What you feel is real.

Once you fall out of love, getting it back, is likely impossible.

What made you initially fall in love with your wife was that chemistry, and that was overridden by all those years of incompatibility.

Age and passing years cannot knit that gaping wound that was made larger and more evident throughout in your marriage.

The dance that marriage partners perform can become that habitual lashing out at each other. 

Each, steps on the others foot, as if on purpose. 
Maybe so, maybe just done as some 'learned' reflex.

Now that you are retired, and, by choice, this closely spaced, this rift cannot be avoided.
Many older couples split at retirement.
Sad, this....

Our THRD is going through this ordeal, himself.


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## SunCMars

Part of you knows that she has not really changed, just has.....gotten older and herself, more fearful.

She bends at last, at last is too late.
The harm has been done, and you are done.

You are vulnerable and wary, you know in your heart that she is no fool.
And that she is hoping that you remain one, that fool.

These thoughts are her easiest answer. 
You represent the known, that tolerable man. 
Without you, she would then be that singular woman, having no idealized purpose.
In her mind.

You can be that alone, man.
She cannot, she has self-identified as your partner and master.

Change is hard, hardest when old age is met.


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## SunCMars

Old men are not sought, not allowed to be astronauts.

They are not allowed to jettison their homes in search of the stars.

Young men can do so as they are the adventurers, the old guys are just those addled, thought fools.


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## Blondilocks

What did she do with your inheritance? I'm guessing you didn't say anything when she made her announcement and just let her have it.


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## Andy1001

At nineteen, thirty nine or sixty nine weak men get walked over. 
In life in business and in marriage. 
Did you really roll over and give her your inheritance?


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## Openminded

Many people think very long marriages must be happy but they’re often not. Sometimes they’re just very long. People your age do get divorced in case that’s what you’re considering. Your wife likely doesn’t want a divorce so you would need to be prepared to be the bad guy to everyone you know. It takes a lot of strength to end a very long marriage. Few will understand except those who have gone through it. I hope you find happiness whatever choice you make.


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## Diana7

You are both nearly 70, you have been together for nearly 50 years. You say that things have improved, so could you just live as friends and companions now? I do believe that a large part of marriage is close friendship and companionship, especially as we age.

The alternative is to end the marriage, hurt a lot of people(especially if you have children and grandchildren), and potentially spend the rest of your life alone. Is that what you want?

Have you thought of some good marriage counselling together?

I do find that story of the inheritance totally bizarre, that you would rather end the marriage or kill yourself that actually TALK to her about it??


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## st5555

EleGirl said:


> It does sound like your marriage has been something of a rollercoaster.
> 
> You say that things have been much better for the last few years. So that's positive.
> 
> Do the two of you do spend much time together? If so, what do you do during these times? I'm asking because it sounds like there is very little connection between the two of you. And spending time together is the best way to rebuild that.
> 
> Do you have any children? You don't mention any.


Even though we are retired, we still work a few days a week to keep busy. We do go out to eat quite often or go see the grand children on occasion. We have a son & daughter and five grandchildren


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## st5555

EleGirl said:


> It does sound like your marriage has been something of a rollercoaster.
> 
> You say that things have been much better for the last few years. So that's positive.
> 
> Do the two of you do spend much time together? If so, what do you do during these times? I'm asking because it sounds like there is very little connection between the two of you. And spending time together is the best way to rebuild that.
> 
> Do you have any children? You don't mention any.





aquarius1 said:


> Thanks for coming to TAM. Sorry this is happening.
> 
> Marriages takes a lot of challenges over the years.
> 
> Verbal behaviour, passive aggressive stuff, unmet needs and unspoken ones, life circumstances, work and the addition of the major challenges of children plus our own medical needs, not to mention aging. It can wear a person out.
> 
> To answer your question, does it bother you that you dont miss her? I think it might, since you posted here.
> 
> Are you interested in rediscovering that love? Or are you “done” as far as the marriage is concerned?
> 
> Love can be resurrected in certain cases. Ive done it.
> 
> It doesnt change the history, but the key is to reinvent the relationship based on where you are right now.
> 
> Is that something that you are interested in doing? Or would you prefer to start over?


I am currently seeing a counselor once a week. Not loving my wife is a frequent topic. I brought up not missing her as I assume I should miss her and wonder why I don't. Even if I don't love her, we have been together for a very long time and I wonder why there's no connection between us (from my end anyway).


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## st5555

Blondilocks said:


> What did she do with your inheritance? I'm guessing you didn't say anything when she made her announcement and just let her have it.


Most of the money went into improving the house. IE: we now have vinyl siding so it never has to be painted again. She didn't frivolously spend it on herself. My main issue is I was planning on paying off a lot of debt to make it easier to make ends meet each month. She did give me a couple of thousand to do with as I wanted, but I have no idea now how I spent it.

I didn't say anything as I learned long ago that if she doesn't get her way, she gets angry which leads to rage which leads to me having a very bad day. To make my life easier, I've taken the easy way out. 

These are all issues in the past and we've both done counseling, so things are much better today.


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## st5555

Openminded said:


> Many people think very long marriages must be happy but they’re often not. Sometimes they’re just very long. People your age do get divorced in case that’s what you’re considering. Your wife likely doesn’t want a divorce so you would need to be prepared to be the bad guy to everyone you know. It takes a lot of strength to end a very long marriage. Few will understand except those who have gone through it. I hope you find happiness whatever choice you make.


Fantasizing about divorce is my go to spot when things are rough between us. Things aren't perfect now, but much much better. I just wish I had some feelings for her.


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## Adelais

st5555 said:


> I didn't say anything as I learned long ago that if she doesn't get her way, she gets angry which leads to rage which leads to me having a very bad day. To make my life easier, I've taken the easy way out.
> 
> These are all issues in the past and we've both done counseling, so things are much better today.


Yet you say you don't love her and it started when she took your inheritance.

In therapy do you talk about the trade-off for your conflict avoidance? To avoid having a bad day (maybe a bad week) you gave her your inheritance and it caused 20 years of lack of love (so far). That is not a good trade-off.

If you live 10-30+ more years, you will continue to live in a loveless marriage. Perhaps you need to begin speaking up, enduring a few days of her anger and then having a clean slate for the coming years.


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## st5555

Diana7 said:


> You are both nearly 70, you have been together for nearly 50 years. You say that things have improved, so could you just live as friends and companions now? I do believe that a large part of marriage is close friendship and companionship, especially as we age.
> 
> The alternative is to end the marriage, hurt a lot of people(especially if you have children and grandchildren), and potentially spend the rest of your life alone. Is that what you want?
> 
> Have you thought of some good marriage counselling together?
> 
> I do find that story of the inheritance totally bizarre, that you would rather end the marriage or kill yourself that actually TALK to her about it??


Friends and companions sounds like a good description for my situation. 

We've had many sessions of marriage counseling, which got us to where we are today. I'm in therapy now but not joint counselling. A few times in joint sessions, I was feeling pretty good and thought good progress had been made.... until we got into the car. She would verbally attack me and say if I really cared about her, I wouldn't say such bad things about her so that shows I don't care for her feelings. After that happened a few times, I stopped contributing to the sessions and just pretended all was okay. So now I'm just going solo which allows me to be completely honest and open and discuss the issues which are bothering me.

I've come up with a few sayings through the years to help put things in place. One saying is, "If it's not (wife's) idea, then it's a bad idea. Talking to her would only give her the opportunity to explain how she's right, I'm wrong and if I was only more obedient we wouldn't be having these issues. Near the end of our "bad" summer, I did sit down with her and put everything out there. After pouring my heart out, her response was, "Why didn't you tell me sooner?" I took that to mean it's all my fault for not bringing it up in a timely manner. It took quite a bit of time and sessions for her to consider that perhaps it was partly her fault and not just me being unruly. 

In hindsight, I probably should have filed for divorce 5-10 years after we got married, but here we are almost 50 years later.


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## st5555

Adelais said:


> Yet you say you don't love her and it started when she took your inheritance.
> 
> In therapy do you talk about the trade-off for your conflict avoidance? To avoid having a bad day (maybe a bad week) you gave her your inheritance and it caused 20 years of lack of love (so far). That is not a good trade-off.
> 
> If you live 10-30+ more years, you will continue to live in a loveless marriage. Perhaps you need to begin speaking up, enduring a few days of her anger and then having a clean slate for the coming years.


The breaking point was when we took my inheritance. Before that, she had to be in control of everything and call all the shots. I endured it though wasn't happy about the situation. For quite a few years she's been on medication that we call her "happy" pill. No idea what it is, but it works. She may still get angry, but I haven't seen her rage for a long time. One milestone was a few years ago when she got home in a bad mood and started raging on me. I told her I wasn't going to allow her to abuse me anymore (the look of shock on her face was priceless) and I left. I went to the local movie theater and watched a movie I had no interest in. My phone kept vibrating as she was constantly messaging me so I turned it off. After watching two movies I didn't care about, I went to the car and gave her a call. She asked me if I was sorry for making her worry so much. I said absolutely not. But that was the last time she raged on me as she now knows if it happens again, I won't be around to listen to her.

These issues are all issues in the past and things are pretty good now. I only wish I had some feelings for her and missed her when away. I may be in a loveless marriage, but at least I'm no longer being abused.


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## st5555

Blondilocks said:


> What did she do with your inheritance? I'm guessing you didn't say anything when she made her announcement and just let her have it.


Yes, that's true. If you've never been a victim of abuse, it's probably a tough thing to wrap your head around. Back then she was totally in charge and my main goal was to try to accommodate her as much as possible to reduce the chance of being verbally abused. 

Thank goodness those days are long past and her behavior is completely different now.


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## ConanHub

st5555 said:


> Yes, that's true. If you've never been a victim of abuse, it's probably a tough thing to wrap your head around. Back then she was totally in charge and my main goal was to try to accommodate her as much as possible to reduce the chance of being verbally abused.
> 
> Thank goodness those days are long past and her behavior is completely different now.


Sorry you put up with your abuser so long.

Your story makes more sense now.

You should just be truthful with her.

Maybe you can both work with whatever is left but you need some foundation to work with.

If she has two brain cells, she will know why you don't love her.

Regardless, don't let yourself be abused for one instant longer.


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## Adelais

Why are you keeping the fact that you don't love her a secret?

It sounds like the two of you need a catalyst to change things. Being honest and telling her (in the counselor's office) that you don't love her, miss her etc. and that began when she took your inheritance might be that catalyst. She may decide she doesn't want to live with a man who doesn't love her, and she may ask for a separation or divorce, since you aren't inclined to do it.

Also, for the life of me, I can't wrap my head around your not knowing what med she has been taking for years. It sounds like calling it her "happy pill" is a method of dancing around what the real issue was and what the medication is. That sounds very "rug sweepingish" to me.

She was an angry, loud woman and you were a conflict avoidant man. It could be that she would have backed down years ago had you confronted the issues, as they happened. You say she has always been controlling, yet you allowed her to be that way by not speaking up when things mattered to you, because of your fear of conflict. Conflict happens in life. If the problems are faced head on and discussed, many times they don't happen again. You experienced that yourself when you left the house and went to the movies and later told her you were not going to tolerate her abuse anymore.

What is needed is for you to tell her the truth about not loving or missing her. That is if you plan to stay married to her.

Are you here to find a solution to your lack of love, or to just vent and remain in the same state?

Is there a woman in your life who you would rather be with?


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## OnTheFly

st5555 said:


> .......So I fell out of love with her.......


Understandable.


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## sunsetmist

I support @Adelais view of your situation. Your partner used many excuses for her horrid, mean, abusive behavior. PMS does not cause this. Mental health issues may contribute. But, she learned the way to always be in control was to throw a temper tantrum. A habitual norm was established. She probably loves her choices and boasts that without her y'all would have next to nothing.

IMO: you've not really had a marriage for a while, but more of a boss/underling relationship. She has you trained. Would you even know how to function otherwise?

Decide now if you have the energy--leave or stay. When you say things are bearable now, do you mean you no longer are suicidal or you are resigned to her driving the relationship? You have to occasionally worry if things will regress.

Have you 'let things go' so long that you feel emasculated or are you comfortable that she is a good caregiver? Are you a young, healthy almost seventy or older than your age? What do you want for the rest of your life? Some of my relatives lived to be well over a hundred. Are you allowing for this possibility?


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## st5555

Adelais said:


> Why are you keeping the fact that you don't love her a secret?
> 
> It sounds like the two of you need a catalyst to change things. Being honest and telling her (in the counselor's office) that you don't love her, miss her etc. and that began when she took your inheritance might be that catalyst. She may decide she doesn't want to live with a man who doesn't love her, and she may ask for a separation or divorce, since you aren't inclined to do it.
> 
> Also, for the life of me, I can't wrap my head around your not knowing what med she has been taking for years. It sounds like calling it her "happy pill" is a method of dancing around what the real issue was and what the medication is. That sounds very "rug sweepingish" to me.
> 
> 
> Are you here to find a solution to your lack of love, or to just vent and remain in the same state?
> 
> Is there a woman in your life who you would rather be with?


Yes, I am keeping my lack of love for her a secret. If she knew I fell out of love with her, I'm afraid living with her would become much more difficult. Perhap erroneously I'm using love as a shield from her potential ire. Also I'm not telling her because that would only hurt her feelings and I don't see how my admission could help in anyway as there's no solution. 

A few months ago I was tired of her chronic negativity and pessimism. It brought me down so much I made active plans to leave her. The morning I was going to put my plan in place she caught on something was up and asked "Are you leaving me?" I have no idea what made her ask that, but she was totally correct. I replied that yes I was planning on it. This was the first time in our marriage I made that statement. She was completely shocked and her first words were "I can't live here alone." with a slight panic tone to her voice. Her next statement was that this was a complete eye opener and the tone of her voice indicated she was on the verge of a panic attack or was going to burst into tears. So I highly doubt she'll ever leave me or file for divorce, though if she did, I'd help her obtain that goal anyway I could. I didn't leave her as she promised to be less negative and try to be more positive. She's kept her promise and asks me often if she's being too negative or critical. So to give her credit, she is trying very hard to be better and I appreciate that. She's been far less negative but not more positive. I honestly don't think she's capable of it. As I told my therapist, she's not negative or positive but neutral. I can live with that.

As far as meds go, I'm on high blood pressure and cholesterol meds and I have no idea what those are, so not knowing what meds she's on makes me consistant. She is an excellent care giver and takes care of all that stuff for me, I just take two pills from my pill dispenser every night. All I know is if she runs out (happened a couple times) her mood takes a dramatic turn for the worse therefore I know her happy pills work incredibly well. Which was another issue, she is definitely an excellent caregiver and takes care of all my needs but we fell into a mother/child relationship where she was the adult and I the child. But that was her comfort zone as she likes being in control of everything.

I am seeing a therapist on a weekly basis and not loving my wife is a recurring topic. She doesn't have a magic solution so I don't expect one here. I'm here basically to share my experiences so I guess venting would be correct, but sharing and discussing it with people in similar situations makes me feel less isolated. My wife is a complete pessimist and it's just not part of her makeup to provide positive reinforcement, so I try to find some wherever I can.

There is no other woman in my life, but I do have a reoccurring dream about one. In the dream I instinctively know she'll never hurt me and I'm safe with her. It's such a wonderful feeling that doesn't exist anywhere else in my life. I wish I could have that dream every night. I know there must be couples out there that experience that feeling everyday, I hope they realize how lucky they are and I hope they don't take it for granted.


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## st5555

sunsetmist said:


> I support @Adelais view of your situation. Your partner used many excuses for her horrid, mean, abusive behavior. PMS does not cause this. Mental health issues may contribute. But, she learned the way to always be in control was to throw a temper tantrum. A habitual norm was established. She probably loves her choices and boasts that without her y'all would have next to nothing.
> 
> IMO: you've not really had a marriage for a while, but more of a boss/underling relationship. She has you trained. Would you even know how to function otherwise?
> 
> Decide now if you have the energy--leave or stay. When you say things are bearable now, do you mean you no longer are suicidal or you are resigned to her driving the relationship? You have to occasionally worry if things will regress.
> 
> Have you 'let things go' so long that you feel emasculated or are you comfortable that she is a good caregiver? Are you a young, healthy almost seventy or older than your age? What do you want for the rest of your life? Some of my relatives lived to be well over a hundred. Are you allowing for this possibility?


The breaking point was what I call my bad summer which was twenty years ago. I was suicidal then, but not since. Though every time I get upset, she worries I'm going to do something to myself. From that point on, it's been a very slow uphill battle to get where we are today via therapy. We wouldn't go constantly but for a few months every couple of years. Each time baby steps were made. But because she hated hearing me talk about the way she treated me I am now in solo therapy where I can be completely open and honest without worrying about retribution. 

She tries to include me much more in decision making and is always asking if I'm okay with doing such and such or going some place.

If the me from 20-30 years ago could see the type of relationship we have today, he'd wonder why I was complaining. Though she's still difficult to live with, she is trying very hard to be better and I respect that. 

I think your opening paragraph is spot on and thanks for your viewpoint.


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## Married but Happy

What do you think your options are at this point, and what would it take for you to choose something that is different from what you've always done before?


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## st5555

Married but Happy said:


> What do you think your options are at this point, and what would it take for you to choose something that is different from what you've always done before?


As I mentioned in previous threads, I'm seeing a therapist weekly. 
I am here mainly to share my situation with others that can perhaps relate.

As most people, I have lots of options, but I plan on staying with my wife (as long as her behavior remains appropriate).
The real change in the past year or so is that I've become much more assertive. What she got away with years ago would not be tolerated today. About a year ago I went into a deep depression. After talking things over with my wife many times, she knew the solution as when I asked her what I should do, she said I should be more assertive. A wise person once said, you should be careful what you wish for as she stated in one minor argument that she hated me being more assertive. So being more assertive the past year is newish and different. 

Whereas leaving/divorcing her has been one of my recurring fantasies, her greatest fear is that I'll leave her. We may not yet have a 50/50 relationship but it's pretty close and much better than the 99/1 I did have.


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## Openminded

Fear of divorce can make people change but most of the time they’re only doing it so their spouse won’t leave them and not because they want to or deep down feel they should. They see it as the high price required to remain married. A forced change they usually resent on some level. I think that’s what you are seeing. But at least she’s making an effort.


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## TJW

st5555 said:


> (positive and supportive) I honestly don't think she's capable of it.


Horsefeathers.



st5555 said:


> she was the adult and I the child. But that was her comfort zone as she likes being in control of everything.


There it is. There's the reason your wife is negative, disrespectful, abusive, and unsupportive. You recognize passive-aggressive in yourself. However, your wife has become a master of it, too. She has replaced her straight-out aggression control methodology with another which is societally acceptable.



st5555 said:


> In the dream I instinctively know she'll never hurt me and I'm safe with her.


Dreams can tell us things. Your dream tells me something. "Safety" is what you are seeking. 

I don't know if you've ever been to an orchard..... but there are three basic technique choices....

choice #1 is to pick up the apples which have already fallen off the trees. Safest. Rotten, mellow apples.

choice #2 is to stay on the trunk of the tree when you climb. Not quite as safe as #1. But, no apples.

choice #3 is to go out upon the limbs. Risky. But, that's where the good apples are.


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## TJW

st5555 said:


> We may not yet have a 50/50 relationship but it's pretty close and much better than the 99/1 I did have.


Yes, and your own assertiveness has been the key element which moved you from 99/1 (which, I would call 100/0) toward a more balanced marriage.

You can leave your wife and find another woman if you choose. But, just be careful that you don't wind up with another woman who is just as fearful and anxious (thereby, controlling) as the one you have.

Another woman will not relieve you of the need to crawl out that tree limb.


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## She'sStillGotIt

Openminded said:


> Fear of divorce can make people change but most of the time they’re only doing it so their spouse won’t leave them and not because they want to or deep down feel they should. They see it as the high price required to remain married. A forced change they usually resent on some level. I think that’s what you are seeing. But at least she’s making an effort.


That is very true. People don't change that much at their core - especially when they're 69 years old. Let's be real, here.

And OP, what if she DOES revert back to form (which she eventually will) and you go back to that 99-1 imbalance? Are you going to run off to the movie theater again for another 4 hour double feature just to show her who's boss? 

Sadly, just as your wife will always be who she's been, you will also always be who you've been. You've spent your life being too weak to stand up for yourself - to the point where you let someone TELL you she was going to steal your own inheritance and you STILL didn't stand up for yourself. Not even *then*.

So if you're looking for encouragement to *continue* the charade you've been putting on for the last 20+ years because you're too afraid of your own shadow to demand the respect you deserve and seek a better life, then I guess I'll just say good luck to you.


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## Blondilocks

Your wife was/is a typical bully. When you stand up to her, she backs down. 

You are not without some semblance of love for her, though, as you still care about not hurting her feelings. If you want a new type of marriage, you can tell her that after all the years of being terrorized in your own home you've lost that loving feeling and she needs to woo you. Decide what that means to you and lay it out for her. 

Let it be known that from now on you'll be wearing the pants in the family. 

Please acquaint yourself with your medications and hers, too. You never know when the information will come in handy. Write it down and keep it in your wallet. Because, you're an adult - so act like it.


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## SunCMars

Why is it that the door handle is always just out of your reach?
It is because you purposely do not extend your arm, far out, enough.

You are where you are at....today, because that is where you want to be.

You want to be married to her, minus the harassment.

You are now stuck in that old birds nest of yours' and hers.
You have long ago, forgotten how to fly.

On those common medications you take for HBP and cholesterol, read the side effects.

They weaken you, make you dizzy, zap your energy, interfere with your sleep, cause memory loss. Can make any present ED worse.

I am not suggesting that you stop taking them, I am letting you know why many older men and women cannot escape easily solvable daily problems.
Anything one wishes to do in this life requires willpower and a reason to do it. Many medications interfere with will power.

Yes, as someone else has mentioned, she needs her meds to stabilize her moods. Your lackadaisical attitude to your problems and hers are typical for old folks. 
You are drugged to some 'less' powerful state.

You are this older man already starting to dodder and have let others manage you. The pattern is set.

...........................................................................................................

The thing is...

Maybe, this is where you should be. 
Any woman married to you will have to be your nurse (pill lady) and cook and clothes washer.
I suggest staying with her and keeping her on her meds. I also suggest finding out more about her health. 

You both, at this point, need each other.

Become this aware man, not just a person in the room.
She bossed you around because she saw you as weak. And she is/was right.

Now, she is weak (weakening). She is becoming that fearful person, also.
And with good reason. Reason is slowly leaving her.
It leaves all of us...at some time.

Insecure people can be snippy, bossy, nasty. She could have been this, all her life.



Some people get old at 80, some at 60. It depends.
If this sounds like a dig, and unwarranted criticism. 
It's not.

Nope.

I know better.


----------



## Livvie

SunCMars said:


> Why is it that the door handle is always just out of your reach?
> It is because you purposely do not extend your arm, far out, enough.
> 
> You are where you are at....today, because that is where you want to be.
> 
> You want to be married to her, minus the harassment.
> 
> You are now stuck in that old birds nest of yours' and hers.
> You have long ago, forgotten how to fly.
> 
> On those common medications you take for HBP and cholesterol, read the side effects.
> 
> They weaken you, make you dizzy, zap your energy, interfere with your sleep, cause memory loss. Can make any present ED worse.
> 
> I am not suggesting that you stop taking them, I am letting you know why many older men and women cannot escape easily solvable daily problems.
> Anything one wishes to do in this life requires willpower and a reason to do it. Many medications interfere with will power.
> 
> Yes, as someone else has mentioned, she needs her meds to stabilize her moods. Your lackadaisical attitude to your problems and hers are typical for old folks.
> You are drugged to some 'less' powerful state.
> 
> You are this older man already starting to dodder and have let others manage you. The pattern is set.
> 
> ...........................................................................................................
> 
> The thing is...
> 
> Maybe, this is where you should be.
> Any woman married to you will have to be your nurse (pill lady) and cook and clothes washer.
> I suggest staying with her and keeping her on her meds. I also suggest finding out more about her health.
> 
> You both, at this point, need each other.
> 
> Become this aware man, not just a person in the room.
> She bossed you around because she saw you as weak. And she is/was right.
> 
> Now, she is weak (weakening). She is becoming that fearful person, also.
> And with good reason. Reason is slowly leaving her.
> It leaves all of us...at some time.
> 
> Insecure people can be snippy, bossy, nasty. She could have been this, all her life.
> 
> Some people get old at 80, some at 60. It depends.
> If this sounds like a dig, and unwarranted criticism.
> It's not.
> 
> Nope.
> 
> I know better.


I think this is good advice. And I pretty much never believe staying in a loveless marriage is a good thing. 

I read your original post again. If at 50, the prospect of moving out was too much for you because you'd have to move your home office and it's inventory (unless you live in a castle, how big can that home office really be?) then I think at 70, *20 years later*, you don't have the oomph (as SunCMars said) to divorce and separate your life from hers. Plus, it sounds like you have really never lived on your own. 

Keep going with the therapy and speaking up for yourself in this marriage and abandon thoughts of leaving. Focus on improving things in your current situation.


----------



## st5555

Livvie said:


> I think this is good advice. And I pretty much never believe staying in a loveless marriage is a good thing.
> 
> I read your original post again. If at 50, the prospect of moving out was too much for you because you'd have to move your home office and it's inventory (unless you live in a castle, how big can that home office really be?) then I think at 70, *20 years later*, you don't have the oomph (as SunCMars said) to divorce and separate your life from hers. Plus, it sounds like you have really never lived on your own.
> 
> Keep going with the therapy and speaking up for yourself in this marriage and abandon thoughts of leaving. Focus on improving things in your current situation.


Moving at the time seemed like a huge hurdle as I was in a deep depression. I lost customers that summer as even going to work was a chore. I'd prefer to just sit at my desk and focus on my current situation in an endless loop.

You are correct, I've never been on my own. My parents had four children and then seven years later I was born. An unexpected surprise to them. As the "baby" of the family, my sisters fussed over me as much as my mother. When 18, I joined the national guards (to avoid going to Viet Nam) where they took care of me while in training for almost 9 months. From there I stayed in my future wife's apartment where she took care of me. I regret not getting my own place for a year or two to experience the freedom and independence phase most people have.

At this point leaving her is my goto fantasy when things get rough. I find it comforting to know I have options if I really need to. I did seriously plan on leaving her for a month or so a while back. At that point I just needed a break from her negativity and doom and gloom outlook. When she realized this, it came to light that me leaving her was her greatest fear and she's tried to be on her best behavior since.


----------



## Livvie

Well then... Do you think, when you fantasize about it, that divorcing is feasible? If you split assets, would you have enough to make a go of it? What are your thoughts on running a household yourself, shopping, cooking, cleaning?

ETA unfortunately you never know to what age anyone is going to live. Even older couples can have one person being widowed, for the last 10 years or however long. A long term marriage is no guarantee you'll not end up living on your own, anyway.


----------



## Casual Observer

st5555 said:


> At this point leaving her is my goto fantasy when things get rough. I find it comforting to know I have options if I really need to. I did seriously plan on leaving her for a month or so a while back. At that point I just needed a break from her negativity and doom and gloom outlook. When she realized this, it came to light that me leaving her was her greatest fear and she's tried to be on her best behavior since.


If your fantasy a better relationship with your wife, or finally having the opportunity to live on your own? These are two different things in extreme conflict with each other, but you've expressed the desire for both in this thread. If your wife isn't aware, it's not really fair to her that she isn't clued in on this. If I'm correct, that you have these two conflicting fantasies, you're putting her into an impossible situation. You need to sort this out before seeing her as the thing that needs to change to make you happier.


----------



## Adelais

The only good things you say about your wife are things that a nurse and housekeeper could do. Does she know that she is merely a free housekeeper and nurse?

Do the two of you ever go on vacations or have fun together? That might improve your bond.


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

Do you want to love your wife again?


----------



## TJW

Adelais said:


> Does she know that she is merely a free housekeeper and nurse?


Free? I'm not a gambler, nor the son of a gambler, but if I were, I'd be quite willing to bet that she costs him far more than simply paying someone for them would. Those are the only benefits she delivers to him, in the current state of affairs. I think he'd save a fortune by using employees.



Adelais said:


> Do the two of you ever go on vacations or have fun together? That might improve your bond.


I agree that having fun together and vacationing together are good ideas. However, I also see that "fun" would be quite impossible under either the abuser/abused, parent/child, or nurse/patient dynamics which have supplanted a "normal" marriage for them.

A married couple who has allowed their relationship to degrade into these kinds of role-play aberrations would have to first correct the prevailing dynamic, before these kinds of activities would seem pleasurable to either of them.


----------



## st5555

Livvie said:


> Well then... Do you think, when you fantasize about it, that divorcing is feasible? If you split assets, would you have enough to make a go of it? What are your thoughts on running a household yourself, shopping, cooking, cleaning?


At this point I don't see divorce in the future. She's not the person she was ten or even one year ago. I can tell she's trying very hard to be better. She will ask me every few days to make sure she's not being too critical or negative. A few months ago, when I made plans to live away from her for a short period as a break, it came to light that her greatest fear was living alone. I see that as leverage, which I'm not used to having, but I don't plan on exploiting it.

At that time I didn't want to leave her because of the way she was treating me, but I was simply tired of her negativity and doom and gloom about life in general. It's a real downer to listen to someone be negative 24 hours a day. I was concerned her negative attitude was also affecting me negatively and I'd go back into one of my depression states, so I wanted a break to refresh my mental attitude. Once I fall into a state of depression, it's a long road back to normalcy and I am really tired of traveling on that road. 

When I fantasize about leaving/divorcing her, it's not because I want to at that moment, but that I find it comforting to know I'm here voluntarily and can step away anytime I want to. I suppose we all find our comfort/safe spots in different ways. 

A few months ago, my therapist asked me what'd I do first if I left her. I thought about for a moment and told her I'd hire a housekeeper!


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

st5555 said:


> I am currently seeing a counselor once a week. Not loving my wife is a frequent topic. I brought up not missing her as I assume I should miss her and wonder why I don't. Even if I don't love her, we have been together for a very long time and I wonder why there's no connection between us (from my end anyway).


Interesting, we have a thread discussing the term “used up.” I immediately thought of your thread.
You are emotionally “used up.” 

You’ve heard the saying “The opposite of love is not hate, it is indifference.“

See, I don’t like how it is applied.

To me, it should read the opposite of any emotion is indifference. Your emotional connection is gone/used up, which answers why you don’t miss her and why you may no longer lover her.

You pr posts feel devoid of any emotion To me.


----------



## st5555

Adelais said:


> The only good things you say about your wife are things that a nurse and housekeeper could do. Does she know that she is merely a free housekeeper and nurse?
> 
> Do the two of you ever go on vacations or have fun together? That might improve your bond.


Going on vacations with her can be very tricky. Her need to be in control gets amplified many times. 

Three-four years ago we went to Las Vegas. For some reason her mood was very bad and I could do nothing right. We did the Grand Canyon tour and had lunch at a small viewing spot for tourists.

I noticed a crowd of people walking trails off the in distance and asked my wife if she'd like to take a walk with me to see what was going on. She declined, so I went by myself. It was a nice walk, the views were amazing. It was further than I thought and I was gone perhaps 45 minutes to an hour. Upon returning to the lunch spot, I couldn't find her anywhere so I sat at the table where we had lunch and waited. There was no cell phone service in that area so I couldn't reach her.

After awhile an official kind of guy walks up to my table and asked if I was her husband. I replied, yes. He said my wife reported me as being lost or missing! She had taken the bus back to the main tourist area for some reason and expected to find me there. He escorted me back to the bus terminal and waited until I got on the bus. I thought that my wife had gone completely crazy. Her actions made no sense. Her reasoning when we got back together didn't make any sense.

That night I couldn't sleep and walked the casino floor until around 3AM. I returned to the room and my wife awakened and asked was was going on. As I was sitting there, I couldn't stop shaking. I was experiencing a complete mental collapse trying to deal with her under these extreme situations. 

Knowing that it's real easy for people to get married in Vegas, I assumed it'd be real easy to get divorced. I was right, it is a quick and simple process, unfortunately one of the litigants have to be a resident of Nevada. That was the last time I seriously pursued getting divorced. Later when I told me wife, her response was, "You'd make me fly home alone?!" She wasn't concerned our marriage would be over, she was focused only on her needs. 

Since then, she's tried (and sometimes failed) to be better when we travel. But like other aspects of my marriage that area is also improving.

So do do we have fun on vacations? I suppose it depends on what your definition of fun is.


----------



## st5555

Emerging Buddhist said:


> Do you want to love your wife again?


Yes. She used to be the love of my life. She was my everything. I wish those feelings would return.

But after years of verbal abuse I became firmly convinced she didn't love me as I couldn't understand how you could love someone and treat them that way. 

So thinking she didn't love me, I lost my feelings for her and have not been able to get them to return. She's trying to do everything right for me now. If only the new positive effort she's trying to put into our marriage would ignite something in me, I'd no longer need to be here sharing my experiences.


----------



## Casual Observer

st5555 said:


> Going on vacations with her can be very tricky. Her need to be in control gets amplified many times.
> 
> Three-four years ago we went to Las Vegas. For some reason her mood was very bad and I could do nothing right. We did the Grand Canyon tour and had lunch at a small viewing spot for tourists.
> 
> I noticed a crowd of people walking trails off the in distance and asked my wife if she'd like to take a walk with me to see what was going on. She declined, so I went by myself. It was a nice walk, the views were amazing. It was further than I thought and I was gone perhaps 45 minutes to an hour. Upon returning to the lunch spot, I couldn't find her anywhere so I sat at the table where we had lunch and waited. There was no cell phone service in that area so I couldn't reach her.
> 
> After awhile an official kind of guy walks up to my table and asked if I was her husband. I replied, yes. He said my wife reported me as being lost or missing! She had taken the bus back to the main tourist area for some reason and expected to find me there. He escorted me back to the bus terminal and waited until I got on the bus. I thought that my wife had gone completely crazy. Her actions made no sense. Her reasoning when we got back together didn't make any sense.
> 
> That night I couldn't sleep and walked the casino floor until around 3AM. I returned to the room and my wife awakened and asked was was going on. As I was sitting there, I couldn't stop shaking. I was experiencing a complete mental collapse trying to deal with her under these extreme situations.
> 
> Knowing that it's real easy for people to get married in Vegas, I assumed it'd be real easy to get divorced. I was right, it is a quick and simple process, unfortunately one of the litigants have to be a resident of Nevada. That was the last time I seriously pursued getting divorced. Later when I told me wife, her response was, "You'd make me fly home alone?!" She wasn't concerned our marriage would be over, she was focused only on her needs.
> 
> Since then, she's tried (and sometimes failed) to be better when we travel. *But like other aspects of my marriage that area is also improving.*
> 
> So do do we have fun on vacations? I suppose it depends on what your definition of fun is.


I didn't just bold the important part; I made it red to really stand out. Your situation is dramatically different, and almost without possibility of argument, better than the majority of people here. Why? Because you're seeing improvement. Because you sat through decades of things going very badly, and it's almost never the case that something happens after that much time to change the momentum for the better. People just get used to the bad and put up with it. But you have said, many times, things are getting better. And this time, you said "...like other aspects of my marriage that area is also improving." So you're seeing improvement expanding to multiple areas. Do you have any idea how many people would be insanely jealous of your situation? I get that you don't feel like you're "in love" with her anymore, but dang, this woman appears to be trying. She may have found something inside of her that has rekindled a flame, a desire. If you have given up, if you have thought the grass is greener elsewhere, well, I think you can rationalize this might be a different woman than the one you fell out of love for. Maybe you just need a knock on the head?


----------



## Openminded

Sometimes change happens too late and the original feeling of love just doesn’t come back. Maybe you feel that’s what has happened to you? 

Your wife’s changes are relatively recent. Perhaps time will help you regain that feeling. If it doesn’t at least she’s trying now and that’s a much better situation than when she wasn’t.


----------



## shortbus

Unfortunately, things haven't worked out so well for the OP. I'm sure as a young man, he never could've foreseen this.
No one would want this for themselves or for a loved one, yet here he is.
I find this so sad, due to his age. As a man, your only asset is time.

Unfortunately, and I'm certainly not making light of this, the OP is a good example, of a bad example.

He's older than me, but I'm sure his advice to a younger man wouldn't be to follow his example.

And this is why, fellow readers, my advice is to divorce yourself from a bad situation, before it's too late.

OP, I wish you well.


----------



## st5555

Casual Observer said:


> I didn't just bold the important part; I made it red to really stand out. Your situation is dramatically different, and almost without possibility of argument, better than the majority of people here. Why? Because you're seeing improvement. Because you sat through decades of things going very badly, and it's almost never the case that something happens after that much time to change the momentum for the better. People just get used to the bad and put up with it. But you have said, many times, things are getting better. And this time, you said "...like other aspects of my marriage that area is also improving." So you're seeing improvement expanding to multiple areas. Do you have any idea how many people would be insanely jealous of your situation? I get that you don't feel like you're "in love" with her anymore, but dang, this woman appears to be trying. She may have found something inside of her that has rekindled a flame, a desire. If you have given up, if you have thought the grass is greener elsewhere, well, I think you can rationalize this might be a different woman than the one you fell out of love for. *Maybe you just need a knock on the head?*


If that will rekindle my feelings of love for her then I'm ready to be knocked!


----------



## Emerging Buddhist

Everything in your life is choice… 

Everything.

One cannot have love without forgiveness, and I say this because one seeds the other in all things.

No matter the mistakes that were made up to now, the only way to stop feeling a self-pity for the choices you made is to begin with the understanding that poor choices get made. 

This does not define you, what this does is give you the awareness that one has to own why you are where you are and from there take the ownership of where you are placing yourself. This first journey has absolutely nothing to do with your wife, this is all us.

Once you understand that, know this does not define her either… I believe this because by your own words she is trying.

When we are trying and things seem better, we have to be careful they don’t become a distraction and lose our focus because it can take the attention away from continuing to look inward… 

You will not love your wife again unless you take the time to love yourself, and that begins with forgiveness.

Forgive yourself for all the reasons you fell out of love because we own every single one of them when this happens.

Every one.

Look in your heart compassionately, take the time to see that much of all the encounters you experience is because you are both afraid and desire something you perceive you are losing. It doesn’t matter if she is more afraid or you are more, such actions and reactions are written together… we are only allowed to be a victim once.

Respect is critical in forgiveness and is not giving away power… it is the recognition that your desire to be loved has placed you so you are willing to let go of many healthy boundaries in order to be available for it and as you are looking for it you are holding her accountable for your feelings, or lack thereof, instead of yourself.

She has treated you in the past in ways that have left you wondering why there is no love for you but today you see an effort to make things better. You are teaching her how to treat you still, relationships are always dynamic in such things, we only think these lessons are static.

You say you want to love your wife again.

She isn’t stopping you.

Forgive yourself for feeling hurt over it. I get the hurt, experienced a similar situation myself but there comes a time when you have to say;

“I forgive the way actions and fear have filled me with resentment and placed me here, I do not have to be afraid”

When we release the resentment we carry in our life, a miraculous thing happens… it is back-filled with the ability to feel love and compassion again.

If you can offer this without fear, you will be surprised how well your boundaries draw themselves.


----------



## lifeistooshort

I started to type a response to this several times, but kept stepping back because it is somewhat triggering for me and I wanted to type something that might actually be helpful, as opposed to me venting and triggering.

I think I'm ready to give it a shot, so here it goes.

I see that most posters here have run with the idea that OP's wife is a controlling bully and he's a victim. I'm going to disagree with this.

OP, you admit you are passive aggressive and conflict avoidant. Everyone here who knows my story knows this is exactly what I dealt with when married to my ex hb, so let me explain to you (perhaps from your wife's perspective) what this is like to deal with.

You are fundamentally dishonest. Not from a place of malice, but from a place of fear. People who are extremely conflict avoidant don't have a good lens as to what constitutes raging, so while it is of course quite possible your wife has raged and bullied it's also possible that what is basically normal conflict is interpreted by you as raging because you're so terrified of conflict. My ex was like that; he was so terrified of conflict that everything which made him uncomfortable was interpreted as raging, and this meant that I had to walk on eggshells. Anything less than a phony smile was unpleasant and couldn't be tolerated. And he too would never tell me when things bothered him; instead, he'd choose the path of least resistance for himself and then secretly resent me for it. I never had the courtesy of knowing what his issues were but then had to pay for it when he resented the path he chose for himself.

I can see this from what you've written. You said your wife used your inheritance for home improvement projects; did you ever actually have a conversation with her where you told her you wanted to pay off debts? Or did you just go along with it and secretly get pissed off? You claim she's controlling, but passive aggressive behavior is also extremely controlling, so perhaps she's not the only one? Except that PA is dishonest because you don't even cop to anything.....it allows you an out to play dumb. Maybe part of the reason she seeks control is that she never knows what she's dealing with because you won't deal with anything?

You admit that you lied about loving her. That is so dishonest I don't know what else to say about it; your wife, when actually getting the courtesy of knowing how much things bothered you, has admittedly made a lot of effort to do better. So it's not that she doesn't care, it's that you never gave her the opportunity to deal with things when she could've dealt with them. You are just as responsible for the state of your marriage as she is....in some ways more because your conflict avoidance and dishonestly actually gives you a constant upper hand by keeping things from her. At least with her you know what you're dealing with. My ex didn't have the backbone to have an adult conversation about anything unpleasant with me but he'd use PA behavior to take his own control of the situation, then play dumb. How was I supposed to deal with that?

So here you are, almost 50 years later. I'd bet she's just as unhappy as you and probably doesn't know what to do because she can't get you to actually communicate anything to her.

I'll reiterate that she could well just be a nasty bully that you can't talk to.....I don't know. But you're here and she's not, and the only one you control is you. I hope you'll deal with your conflict avoidance and PA behavior is counseling because it's not good for either of you. And if you really feel like divorce is off the table at this point I'd suspect you'd be much happier if you learned to actually communicate your needs, because it sounds like she is willing to hear them.


----------



## guilty and regretful

lifeistooshort said:


> You said your wife used your inheritance for home improvement projects; *did you ever actually have a conversation with her where you told her you wanted to pay off debts? * Or did you just go along with it and secretly get pissed off? You claim she's controlling, but passive aggressive behavior is also extremely controlling, so perhaps she's not the only one? Except that PA is dishonest because you don't even cop to anything.....it allows you an out to play dumb. Maybe part of the reason she seeks control is that she never knows what she's dealing with because you won't deal with anything?
> 
> You admit that you lied about loving her. *That is so dishonest I don't know what else to say about it;* your wife, when actually getting the courtesy of knowing how much things bothered you, has admittedly made a lot of effort to do better. So it's not that she doesn't care, it's that you never gave her the opportunity to deal with things when she could've dealt with them. You are just as responsible for the state of your marriage as she is....in some ways more because your conflict avoidance and dishonestly actually gives you a constant upper hand by keeping things from her. At least with her you know what you're dealing with. My ex didn't have the backbone to have an adult conversation about anything unpleasant with me but he'd use PA behavior to take his own control of the situation, then play dumb. How was I supposed to deal with that?
> 
> So here you are, almost 50 years later. I'd bet she's just as unhappy as you and probably doesn't know what to do because she can't get you to actually communicate anything to her.


I've read through this thread and had many different ideas and opinions on what and if to respond. I can understand your frustration and sadness. However I tend to agree with the comment above. As a wife to someone who doesn't communicate well I can see how your wife could get frustrated and angry (actual destruction of property is a bit over the top yes and is abusive) When my DH gets upset he literally hides under a blanket and stops talking to me. The hurt and anger it used to produce in me was enough to make me go and beat the living daylights out of our mattress. 

I'm in therapy and our relation is improving. I'm on lexipro as my "happy pill" Seriously you need to know what med's both of you are on! It can literally be life saving if an emergency arises! 

I was a care taker for him for a few years because of his medical issues and that dynamic, mixed with lack of communication, drove me to drinking an an affair. (Please everyone know that I take full responsibility for my actions and do not intend for this to sound like an excuse for cheating, I was in the wrong) 

That opened both of our eyes to the need for change.

We talk and share our feelings. I know when he's not feeling loved and he knows when I'm feeling overwhelmed. He has told me he's having a difficult time feeling like he loves me and it is a great thing to know. When I know he isn't feeling like he loves me it helps me evaluate what I can do to show him love.

A great book that helped me was "the 5 Love Languages" by Gary Chapman It's a christian based perspective but has very great tips and ideas on how we as humans give and receive love.

I highly recommend to fix your passive aggressive ways. Openly talk about your feelings to your wife.

Does she love you? 
Have you had that conversation?
How do your children feel about love?
Did they feel love growing up?

It sounds like this was an emotionally stunted home with a lot of bitterness and anger. 

It's time to talk, share, listen, and take action, be it divorce or active change on both your parts.


----------



## aquarius1

lifeistooshort said:


> I started to type a response to this several times, but kept stepping back because it is somewhat triggering for me and I wanted to type something that might actually be helpful, as opposed to me venting and triggering.
> 
> I think I'm ready to give it a shot, so here it goes.
> 
> I see that most posters here have run with the idea that OP's wife is a controlling bully and he's a victim. I'm going to disagree with this.
> 
> OP, you admit you are passive aggressive and conflict avoidant. Everyone here who knows my story knows this is exactly what I dealt with when married to my ex hb, so let me explain to you (perhaps from your wife's perspective) what this is like to deal with.
> 
> You are fundamentally dishonest. Not from a place of malice, but from a place of fear. People who are extremely conflict avoidant don't have a good lens as to what constitutes raging, so while it is of course quite possible your wife has raged and bullied it's also possible that what is basically normal conflict is interpreted by you as raging because you're so terrified of conflict. My ex was like that; he was so terrified of conflict that everything which made him uncomfortable was interpreted as raging, and this meant that I had to walk on eggshells. Anything less than a phony smile was unpleasant and couldn't be tolerated. And he too would never tell me when things bothered him; instead, he'd choose the path of least resistance for himself and then secretly resent me for it. I never had the courtesy of knowing what his issues were but then had to pay for it when he resented the path he chose for himself.
> 
> I can see this from what you've written. You said your wife used your inheritance for home improvement projects; did you ever actually have a conversation with her where you told her you wanted to pay off debts? Or did you just go along with it and secretly get pissed off? You claim she's controlling, but passive aggressive behavior is also extremely controlling, so perhaps she's not the only one? Except that PA is dishonest because you don't even cop to anything.....it allows you an out to play dumb. Maybe part of the reason she seeks control is that she never knows what she's dealing with because you won't deal with anything?
> 
> You admit that you lied about loving her. That is so dishonest I don't know what else to say about it; your wife, when actually getting the courtesy of knowing how much things bothered you, has admittedly made a lot of effort to do better. So it's not that she doesn't care, it's that you never gave her the opportunity to deal with things when she could've dealt with them. You are just as responsible for the state of your marriage as she is....in some ways more because your conflict avoidance and dishonestly actually gives you a constant upper hand by keeping things from her. At least with her you know what you're dealing with. My ex didn't have the backbone to have an adult conversation about anything unpleasant with me but he'd use PA behavior to take his own control of the situation, then play dumb. How was I supposed to deal with that?
> 
> So here you are, almost 50 years later. I'd bet she's just as unhappy as you and probably doesn't know what to do because she can't get you to actually communicate anything to her.
> 
> I'll reiterate that she could well just be a nasty bully that you can't talk to.....I don't know. But you're here and she's not, and the only one you control is you. I hope you'll deal with your conflict avoidance and PA behavior is counseling because it's not good for either of you. And if you really feel like divorce is off the table at this point I'd suspect you'd be much happier if you learned to actually communicate your needs, because it sounds like she is willing to hear them.


I cannot LIKE this enough! I too have dealt with a PA partner for 30 years.

It is so lonely and frustrating when you are expected to be a mind reader. 

I can't deal with the issue if I don't know what it is.

QFT thank you for articulating this so well.

OP you may want to seriously consider this viewpoint *if it applies. *
Not communicating your needs, wishes, happiness or unhappiness makes YOU responsible for the outcome.

If she's just a bully, ignore everything that I said. But I wonder if she is just trying to operate in a severely limited information environment. 
It can be crazy making. But still doesn't excuse violent behaviour.


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## lifeistooshort

aquarius1 said:


> I cannot LIKE this enough! I too have dealt with a PA partner for 30 years.
> 
> It is so lonely and frustrating when you are expected to be a mind reader.
> 
> I can't deal with the issue if I don't know what it is.
> 
> QFT thank you for articulating this so well.
> 
> OP you may want to seriously consider this viewpoint *if it applies. *
> Not communicating your needs, wishes, happiness or unhappiness makes YOU responsible for the outcome.
> 
> If she's just a bully, ignore everything that I said. But I wonder if she is just trying to operate in a severely limited information environment.
> It can be crazy making. But still doesn't excuse violent behaviour.




Thank you. I have an extensive thread in the private section detailing my own issues with my ex and it was so helpful for me....and you're right about it being crazy making. I also spent 2 1/2 years in counseling in addition to marriage counseling to make sense of this.

I get the feeling that OP engages in expectations without communication....he decides what he expects but his wife has no idea. Then when she doesn't react how he expected she fails the test. I know these tests well.

I agree that violent behavior is never ok. However.....I'd be lying if I said I never thought about throwing a dish. Passive aggressive conflict avoidant people have a way of picking at you until you lose it....then they play dumb and pretend they have no idea what the issue is. It's quite nasty and controlling, but they don't have to be accountable for their part in anything because hey....they have no idea what your problem is and why are you raging?

I hope OP gives this some thought. Acknowledging his own contributions may soften his attitude towards his wife....since he wishes to stay married and have more feelings for her. Empathy and understanding goes a long way.


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## In Absentia

lifeistooshort said:


> OP, you admit you are passive aggressive and *conflict avoidant*. Everyone here who knows my story knows this is exactly what I dealt with when married to my ex hb, so let me explain to you (perhaps from your wife's perspective) what this is like to deal with.
> 
> You are fundamentally dishonest. Not from a place of malice, but from a place of fear. *People who are extremely conflict avoidant don't have a good lens as to what constitutes raging, so while it is of course quite possible your wife has raged and bullied it's also possible that what is basically normal conflict is interpreted by you as raging because you're so terrified of conflict.* My ex was like that; he was so terrified of conflict that everything which made him uncomfortable was interpreted as raging, and this meant that I had to walk on eggshells. Anything less than a phony smile was unpleasant and couldn't be tolerated. And he too would never tell me when things bothered him; instead, he'd choose the path of least resistance for himself and then secretly resent me for it. I never had the courtesy of knowing what his issues were but then had to pay for it when he resented the path he chose for himself.
> 
> *You admit that you lied about loving her.* That is so dishonest I don't know what else to say about it; your wife, when actually getting the courtesy of knowing how much things bothered you, has admittedly made a lot of effort to do better. So it's not that she doesn't care, it's that you never gave her the opportunity to deal with things when she could've dealt with them. You are just as responsible for the state of your marriage as she is....in some ways more because your conflict avoidance and dishonestly actually gives you a constant upper hand by keeping things from her. At least with her you know what you're dealing with. *My ex didn't have the backbone to have an adult conversation about anything unpleasant with me but he'd use PA behavior to take his own control of the situation, then play dumb. How was I supposed to deal with that?
> *



Agree with you... you are describing my wife and what I had to deal with too... very unpleasant and soul destroying...


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## Adelais

These two posts are spot on. They are so packed with truths that I'm copying them in my treasure chest, if @emergingbuddhist and @lifeistooshort don't mind.


Emerging Buddhist said:


> Everything is your life is choice…
> 
> Everything.
> 
> Once cannot have love without forgiveness, and I say this because one seeds the other in all things.
> 
> No matter the mistakes that were made up to now, the only way to stop feeling a self-pity for the choices you made is to begin with the understanding that poor choices get made.
> 
> This does not define you, what this does is give you the awareness that one has to own why you are where you are and from there take the ownership of where you are placing yourself. This first journey has absolutely nothing to do with your wife, this is all us.
> 
> Once you understand that, know this does not define her either… I believe this because by your own words she is trying.
> 
> When we are trying and things seem better, we have to be careful they don’t become a distraction and lose our focus because it can take the attention away from continuing to look inward…
> 
> You will not love your wife again unless you take the time to love yourself, and that begins with forgiveness.
> 
> Forgive yourself for all the reasons you fell out of love because we own every single one of them when this happens.
> 
> Every one.
> 
> Look in your heart compassionately, take the time to see that much of all the encounters you experience is because you are both afraid and desire something you perceive you are losing. It doesn’t matter if she is more afraid or you are more, such actions and reactions are written together… we are only allowed to be a victim once.
> 
> Respect is critical in forgiveness and is not giving away power… it is the recognition that your desire to be loved has placed you so you are willing to let go of many healthy boundaries in order to be available for it and as you are looking for it you are holding her accountable for your feelings, or lack thereof, instead of yourself.
> 
> She has treated you in the past in ways that have left you wondering why there is no love for you but today you see an effort to make things better. You are teaching her how to treat you still, relationships are always dynamic in such things, we only think these lessons are static.
> 
> You say you want to love your wife again.
> 
> She isn’t stopping you.
> 
> Forgive yourself for feeling hurt over it. I get the hurt, experienced a similar situation myself but there comes a time when you have to say;
> 
> “I forgive the way actions and fear have filled me with resentment and placed me here, I do not have to be afraid”
> 
> When we release the resentment we carry in our life, a miraculous thing happens… it is back-filled with the ability to feel love and compassion again.
> 
> If you can offer this without fear, you will be surprised how well your boundaries draw themselves.





lifeistooshort said:


> I started to type a response to this several times, but kept stepping back because it is somewhat triggering for me and I wanted to type something that might actually be helpful, as opposed to me venting and triggering.
> 
> I think I'm ready to give it a shot, so here it goes.
> 
> I see that most posters here have run with the idea that OP's wife is a controlling bully and he's a victim. I'm going to disagree with this.
> 
> OP, you admit you are passive aggressive and conflict avoidant. Everyone here who knows my story knows this is exactly what I dealt with when married to my ex hb, so let me explain to you (perhaps from your wife's perspective) what this is like to deal with.
> 
> You are fundamentally dishonest. Not from a place of malice, but from a place of fear. People who are extremely conflict avoidant don't have a good lens as to what constitutes raging, so while it is of course quite possible your wife has raged and bullied it's also possible that what is basically normal conflict is interpreted by you as raging because you're so terrified of conflict. My ex was like that; he was so terrified of conflict that everything which made him uncomfortable was interpreted as raging, and this meant that I had to walk on eggshells. Anything less than a phony smile was unpleasant and couldn't be tolerated. And he too would never tell me when things bothered him; instead, he'd choose the path of least resistance for himself and then secretly resent me for it. I never had the courtesy of knowing what his issues were but then had to pay for it when he resented the path he chose for himself.
> 
> I can see this from what you've written. You said your wife used your inheritance for home improvement projects; did you ever actually have a conversation with her where you told her you wanted to pay off debts? Or did you just go along with it and secretly get pissed off? You claim she's controlling, but passive aggressive behavior is also extremely controlling, so perhaps she's not the only one? Except that PA is dishonest because you don't even cop to anything.....it allows you an out to play dumb. Maybe part of the reason she seeks control is that she never knows what she's dealing with because you won't deal with anything?
> 
> You admit that you lied about loving her. That is so dishonest I don't know what else to say about it; your wife, when actually getting the courtesy of knowing how much things bothered you, has admittedly made a lot of effort to do better. So it's not that she doesn't care, it's that you never gave her the opportunity to deal with things when she could've dealt with them. You are just as responsible for the state of your marriage as she is....in some ways more because your conflict avoidance and dishonestly actually gives you a constant upper hand by keeping things from her. At least with her you know what you're dealing with. My ex didn't have the backbone to have an adult conversation about anything unpleasant with me but he'd use PA behavior to take his own control of the situation, then play dumb. How was I supposed to deal with that?
> 
> So here you are, almost 50 years later. I'd bet she's just as unhappy as you and probably doesn't know what to do because she can't get you to actually communicate anything to her.
> 
> I'll reiterate that she could well just be a nasty bully that you can't talk to.....I don't know. But you're here and she's not, and the only one you control is you. I hope you'll deal with your conflict avoidance and PA behavior is counseling because it's not good for either of you. And if you really feel like divorce is off the table at this point I'd suspect you'd be much happier if you learned to actually communicate your needs, because it sounds like she is willing to hear them.


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## StillSearching

Andy1001 said:


> At nineteen, thirty nine or sixty nine weak men get walked over.
> In life in business and in marriage.
> Did you really roll over and give her your inheritance?


Beta bucks........


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## Cynthia

Learning new relationship and communication skills isn't about fundamentally changing who you are. Part of it is learning a new perspective. It sounds like your wife is trying very hard to be a good wife. I think it would help both of you if you worked together to learn and grow. She appears to be quite willing to do that. I suggest you talk to her about looking for what is good and commenting on it, rather than looking at the negative and trying to fix it. I have found in my own life that this made a huge impact on my own thinking and my relationships. It's about perspective. My personality is the same as it was before I started doing this, but my perspective changed and things got much better after that.


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## Casual Observer

Cynthia said:


> Learning new relationship and communication skills isn't about fundamentally changing who you are. Part of it is learning a new perspective. It sounds like your wife is trying very hard to be a good wife. I think it would help both of you if you worked together to learn and grow. She appears to be quite willing to do that. I suggest you talk to her about looking for what is good and commenting on it, rather than looking at the negative and trying to fix it. I have found in my own life that this made a huge impact on my own thinking and my relationships. It's about perspective. My personality is the same as it was before I started doing this, but my perspective changed and things got much better after that.


Following on that, it would not be a bad idea not just to compliment his wife on her progress, but to tell her it's inspired him to improve as well. 

It would appear that OP has come here at a pivotal point in his life. I hope he realizes and takes advantage of it. Or that something, somehow, allows he to rekindle the long-lost spark for his wife.


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## Cynthia

Casual Observer said:


> Following on that, it would not be a bad idea not just to compliment his wife on her progress, but to tell her it's inspired him to improve as well.
> 
> It would appear that OP has come here at a pivotal point in his life. I hope he realizes and takes advantage of it. Or that something, somehow, allows he to rekindle the long-lost spark for his wife.


I agree. I think an important factor is to address the passive aggressive issue. I think that is a huge factor in the problems this marriage has.

It is highly likely that the reason you, OP, were attracted to your wife in the first place was her take charge attitude that let you off the hook from dealing with conflict. Except it didn't really let you off the hook, it created more pressure. I'm not saying this is all your fault, but that you can only control your part in all of this and it's time to face it head on that this is also not all your wife's fault. You have a responsibility to be an active participant in your own life. Learn some communication skills and work to improve yourself as well as your marriage.

Emerging Buddhist mentioned forgiveness. I don't think you can ever love your wife again if you can't forgive her. That and you have to recognize that you are responsible for the choices you make. You made a choice, out of fear, to let your wife control your inheritance. You say you gave it to her, but she didn't spend it on herself. She put it into your life together. If you don't work through this and resolve your feelings, both for your wife and taking full responsibility for yourself, this isn't going to get any better. That seems to be the core of the problem and it's not going away unless you do something to remove it.

I also find it strange that you can remember exactly what you wife did with the inheritance, but you cannot recall what you did with it. Did you pay down debt like you say you wanted or did you squander it? Could you be blaming your wife for that? Something is fishy about only remembering your wife's part and not your own.


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## st5555

Cynthia said:


> I also find it strange that you can remember exactly what you wife did with the inheritance, but you cannot recall what you did with it. Did you pay down debt like you say you wanted or did you squander it? Could you be blaming your wife for that? Something is fishy about only remembering your wife's part and not your own.


This happened about 20 years ago. It's easy to remember what you spent 20-30 thousand on, especially when you see it everyday on your house. But when you spend a thousand or two on miscellaneous items, those are easily forgotten. I'm only guessing, but I probably paid down a credit card or two and bought myself some trinkets. Which sadly to me, are hardly worth remembering 20 years later.

In hindsight, her decision to spend it on the house was the right thing to do. Her delivery on informing me of her decision sucked.


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## Cynthia

st5555 said:


> This happened about 20 years ago. It's easy to remember what you spent 20-30 thousand on, especially when you see it everyday on your house. But when you spend a thousand or two on miscellaneous items, those are easily forgotten. I'm only guessing, but I probably paid down a credit card or two and bought myself some trinkets. Which sadly to me, are hardly worth remembering 20 years later.
> 
> 
> 
> In hindsight, her decision to spend it on the house was the right thing to do. Her delivery on informing me of her decision sucked.


Yes, her delivery was poor, but that's not within your control. What is in your control is your response. I reccomend you start learning about interpersonal communications to better understand the dynamics between the two of you and to find communication strategies that will help both of you get your needs met. 

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk


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## st5555

Just got back from my weekly visit with my therapist. I told her about joining TAM and how helpful and informative everyone is and it's nice to not feel so isolated in my situation.

An old memory popped up. Many many years ago someone asked my wife why she decided to marry me (don't remember the circumstances or where we were). Without pause or hesitation, she replied, "Because I figured he'd be easy to control."

Well, I didn't like that answer, but it showed that going into this marriage, she was assuming she was going to call the shots and I'd be subservient to her. And sadly she was right. 

I've been dwelling on the past here to give you guys some background and perhaps a little understanding on how I got to where I am today. I've received a lot of great advice from you guys and I am taking it to heart. 

The future looks bright to me. We can't change the past but the future is ours to make as we will. I appreciate all the work my wife is currently putting into our marriage. If I'm no longer badgered, criticized or made to feel like my needs don't matter, hopefully some feelings of affection will return. 

Even though my wife stated in a moment of anger that she hates me being more assertive, that is going to become the new norm. She will no longer get away with inappropriate behavior like she did in the past. 

Now please excuse me while I prepare supper for my wife before she gets home as that is what she asked me to do. 
Is it because I don't want to be disobedient or because I love her and am glad to do this? 
I guess I'll have to think about it for awhile and get back to you!0


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## In Absentia

st5555 said:


> Is it because I don't want to be disobedient or because I love her and am glad to do this?
> I guess I'll have to think about it for awhile and get back to you!0



A bit of both? :wink2:


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## StillSearching

st5555 said:


> Just got back from my weekly visit with my therapist. I told her about joining TAM and how helpful and informative everyone is and it's nice to not feel so isolated in my situation.
> 
> An old memory popped up. Many many years ago someone asked my wife why she decided to marry me (don't remember the circumstances or where we were). Without pause or hesitation, she replied, "Because I figured he'd be easy to control."
> 
> Well, I didn't like that answer, but it showed that going into this marriage, she was assuming she was going to call the shots and I'd be subservient to her. And sadly she was right.
> 
> I've been dwelling on the past here to give you guys some background and perhaps a little understanding on how I got to where I am today. I've received a lot of great advice from you guys and I am taking it to heart.
> 
> The future looks bright to me. We can't change the past but the future is ours to make as we will. I appreciate all the work my wife is currently putting into our marriage. If I'm no longer badgered, criticized or made to feel like my needs don't matter, hopefully some feelings of affection will return.
> 
> Even though my wife stated in a moment of anger that she hates me being more assertive, that is going to become the new norm. She will no longer get away with inappropriate behavior like she did in the past.
> 
> Now please excuse me while I prepare supper for my wife before she gets home as that is what she asked me to do.
> Is it because I don't want to be disobedient or because I love her and am glad to do this?
> I guess I'll have to think about it for awhile and get back to you!0


It not that you don't love your wife...It's that you don't like the man that you've become over the years.
Read "The Rational Male" 
You've lost your sense of manhood. You've become what you never wanted to be and are projecting that onto her persona.
Fix you....then your love for her will return.


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## Holdingontoit

StillSearching said:


> It not that you don't love your wife...It's that you don't like the man that you've become over the years.


I agree with the above.

You cannot love anyone else more than you love yourself. Doesn't sound like you love yourself very much. So you can't love your wife very much.


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## lifeistooshort

StillSearching said:


> It not that you don't love your wife...It's that you don't like the man that you've become over the years.
> Read "The Rational Male"
> You've lost your sense of manhood. You've become what you never wanted to be and are projecting that onto her persona.
> Fix you....then your love for her will return.




I really like this.

You associate your wife with feeling emasculated.....but it's you who has allowed that to happen.

I've no doubt my ex felt the same way....but it was his own fault. All he had to do was speak up and have adult conversations. Yes, that might include conflict and yes, he might have been uncomfortable. But the end result would likely have been resolution of many things and him having more direct power rather than being a 5 year old doing passive aggressive things and making snarky comments under his breath that his wife didn't respect.

Once you stand up, in a respectful way of course (standing up does not mean jerk) not only will you respect yourself but your wife will respect you a lot more.


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## arbitrator

* @st5555 ~ the only time I'd miss her or behavior like that is when signatures were required on the divorce decree!

Don't let the proverbial door hit her in the a$$ on her way out!*


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## StillSearching

lifeistooshort said:


> I really like this.
> 
> *You associate your wife with feeling emasculated.....but it's you who has allowed that to happen.
> *


TRUTH! This happens almost every time a man feels this way.
The truth is we can ONLY fix ourselves anyway.
If he doesn't his next relationship will fail quickly.

Respect is earned for a man.
No woman lays down with a man she doesn't respect.


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## Holdingontoit

@st5555, here is another way to view your situation.

Your wife never loved you or found you attractive as a prospective lover. But she found your income and parenting skills attractive material for being a husband. So she married you. In order to satisfy her needs. She never considered your needs or feelings. Which is the definition of being UNloving. 

For many years, she pretended to love you. And you, who feared being alone and the financial hit and the impact on your children, allowed her to pretend.

Now the tables have turned. You are now the one pretending to love her. And she, knowing that a woman's value on the dating market declines as she ages, while a man's does not decline as rapidly, is now the one who fears being left alone. And who is allowing you to pretend.

So you see, there is a poetic justice in this. At the beginning of the marriage, all she wanted was to be married to you. Whether you wanted to be married to her or not. That was irrelevant to her. Years later, you are now giving her what she asked for and said she wanted. To be married to you. No matter what. And she is. She should be rejoicing. You are giving her exactly what she claimed to desire. To be married to you no matter how you felt about it.

This is your revenge. This is your moment to feel schadenfreude. Do not gloat outwardly, that is unseemly and makes it harder for both of you to pretend the marriage is healthy. But inside you can find contentment that you are serving her a very cold dish indeed.

If you cannot bring yourself to feel satisfaction at turning the tables on her, then you will feel more and more empty and unsatisfied the longer you stay with her. But do not feel that your current situation is "unwinnable". You are a winner from the perspective that you are paying her back in spades for the way she neglected and abused and manipulated and lied to you for all those years when all you wanted was for her to love you. And now, at long last, she probably does. So you both have exactly what you wished for all those years ago. Funny how it feels so different than you expected, isn't it? 

This is an area where you two have a shared experience (getting what you thought you wanted, and finding it not as satisfying as you imagined). For some couples, that commonality would be a path that brings you together. But to follow that path, you would both need to be honest with in another. And there is no guarantee that honesty will bring healing rather than more pain.

I wish you peace no matter how you choose to move forward.


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## Mr. Nail

I don't love my wife because she does not love me. Not because I hate myself, or because of some imagined deficiency. Fixing my level of love for her is not the goal, because it is not a good goal. 

Find a good goal.


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## Marduk

Let me tell you my "aha" moment of emasculation.

I went shopping with my wife. It's very much not something I like to do, but I would often do it with her because she enjoyed it. We'd have a "date afternoon" at the mall. I enjoy buying her nice things, she enjoys getting nice things, you get the drift. So we're at the mall at lululemon or something, she's trying on stuff, and she asks me to hold her purse while she gets changed. So I'm sitting there in one of those chairs outside the change room, holding her purse, and she says through the door something like "I love shopping with you, it's just like shopping with my girlfriends only you buy me stuff!" 

So I looked at the door, looked down at her purse in my lap, and considered well where I had gotten to in my life.

I stood up, shoved her purse under the door, and told her that I was going to Victoria's Secret and I wanted her to meet me there... because if I was going to waste my time shopping, I might as well shop for stuff that benefited me.


----------

