# if R is not working...even with WS doing all the right things



## CantBelieveThis

does it mean it was a deal breaker, but you just havent accepted it? am finding it difficult to move past the transgression in general, cuts like a knife, almost seemingly getting worse over time (1 year out from DDay).

I have seen only a couple stories on here where BS decides to quit the R and move on to D "but" with a remorseful WS whom is doing the right things......

for the first time ever I am really having strong feelings of ending it all, I mean in ways I havent felt it before, as if there is no way I will ever be able to accept such level of betrayal...how does one tell this is not just another up/down of the challenges of R or whether its for real and it means time to go? 
how does one move on to D with a very remorseful WS? I dont intend to use the D as any kind of revenge or whatever, I know she will be totally devastated and will react very badly (maybe suicidal, unimaginable pain, non stop crying, begging, etc) and as the mother of my kids this concerns me....

sorry this is my original story on the link below, I guess if you call it that...

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/174401-hard-time-dealing-limbo.html


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## GusPolinski

If I were in your shoes, the hardest part for me would be the fact that the OM is in prison. Admittedly, that may sound a bit odd. Here's my rationale...

It would be difficult -- if not impossible -- for me to accept the notion that my WW hadn't aware of OM's impending prison sentence prior to agreeing to establish NC. Given this, I'd be left w/ the impression that she were simply biding her time w/ me while waiting for OM to be released.

So I'll ask again (I'd asked in at least one of your other threads)...

How certain are you that your WW/fWW is no longer in contact w/ OM?


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## Ripper

I've commented on your other thread and was always under the impression it was a deal breaker for you. The only reason you were staying was because the state was going to sodomize you during the divorce. Are you now thinking that whatever the deal is, its worth it to get out?

For me, it was full stop, don't let the door hit you where the OM split you. There are a couple of posters here that attempted R and later decided it just wouldn't work. If he doesn't post, maybe PM "Healer". His story comes to mind.


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## CantBelieveThis

GusPolinski said:


> How certain are you that your WW/fWW is no longer in contact w/ OM?


150% percent sure of this.....and she didnt know he was out on bond the whole time during the A, he kept it from her....she also didnt find out he was going back to prison until after NC was established....


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## CantBelieveThis

Ripper said:


> Are you now thinking that whatever the deal is, its worth it to get out?


am thinking that yes....will D help me live with it better?



Ripper said:


> For me, it was full stop, don't let the door hit you where the OM split you. There are a couple of posters here that attempted R and later decided it just wouldn't work. If he doesn't post, maybe PM "Healer". His story comes to mind.


yes Healer threads is one of the very few I have read which are like this


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## Q tip

If you feel there's been enough time, WW has "done" all the right things, then be comforted you tried. It is therefore beyond reason for you to heal in the relationship.

R is a brave thing and you are to be commended. It does not always work. You both worked in good faith. You probably knew this going in a year ago. 

Be free and find a good trusting relationship.


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## GusPolinski

She sure picked a winner, didn't she?

Sorry, that's probably not very helpful...


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## turnera

No one says you have to be one way or the other. You can always just separate and see what happens.


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## Philat

You know, it is what it is. It may be the case that there is simply nothing your W can do to overcome the damage she has done. A year of attempted R is a reasonable amount of time in which to know if it is working or not. There is no right or wrong outcome to attempted R.


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## GusPolinski

Let me say this... *Don't let the experiences of others -- or what they post here -- unduly influence your decisions w/ respect to your reconciliation.* Reading too much of others' experiences into your own situation (funny, usually it's the reverse) will only have you chasing your tail. It can be a vicious circle.

Think of what you read here as cautionary tales. Continue to be vigilant, but don't everyone else's bullsh*t drive you insane.

Have you entered into MC? Any IC for either of you?


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## CantBelieveThis

GusPolinski said:


> She sure picked a winner, didn't she?


well back when she was in the fog....she would tell you "well at least he made me happy".....pfff...whatever


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## GusPolinski

CantBelieveThis said:


> well back when she was in the fog....she would tell you "well at least he made me happy".....pfff...whatever


Drugs can do that.


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## CantBelieveThis

GusPolinski said:


> Let me say this... *Don't let the experiences of others -- or what they post here -- unduly influence your decision to reconcile.* Doing this will only have you chasing your tail, so to speak. Take them as cautionary tales... and yes, continue to be vigilant.
> 
> Have you entered into MC? Any IC for either of you?


I think others stories have given me insight, but that would have been in both directions thou, not just one....thou lately I have indeed been hunting for the D route because of how i feel....

we tried MC/IC at the beginning, for a couple months...didnt seem to help much


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## CantBelieveThis

i know she can sense it...last night out of the blue she told me "am very scared, i think am going to lose you and you are going to leave me....", I didnt say a word.


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## Philat

Maybe give MC/IC another shot before calling it quits?


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## Ripper

Don't know if you read this one from "Chris989". He divorced but still lives with his ex-wife. Honestly sounds like he still debates staying though.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...after-finding-out-really-struggling-long.html

It sucks. Now she is being the good wife. If you leave, you feel like you have thrown her remorse away, impacted the kids life, and will most likely take a reaming in family court. If you stay, your miserable. Why couldn't she just keep her panties on?

When you discussed divorce with her, is she willing to be amicable?


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## GusPolinski

Philat said:


> Maybe give MC/IC another shot before calling it quits?


Yeah, and with a different counselor. Preferably one w/ a LOT of experience dealing w/ infidelity.


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## GusPolinski

CBT, does your wife work outside the home at all? Does she have any formal training or education?


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## badmemory

Philat said:


> You know, it is what it is. It may be the case that there is simply nothing your W can do to overcome the damage she has done. *A year of attempted R is a reasonable amount of time in which to know if it is working or not. * There is no right or wrong outcome to attempted R.


I agree with that, at least in terms of the length of time. It's normal for a BS to have peaks and valleys, but if you haven't had any "peaks" in a year then there's something wrong. You don't have to feel bad about giving R a try, no matter how well behaved she's been.

That said, it's certainly common for a one year Dday anniversary to be a trigger. I had some compulsive thoughts about D during that time. But they passed and weren't near as bad on the two year anniversary.


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## CantBelieveThis

Ripper said:


> Now she is being the good wife. If you leave, you feel like you have thrown her remorse away, impacted the kids life, and will most likely take a reaming in family court. If you stay, your miserable. Why couldn't she just keep her panties on?
> 
> When you discussed divorce with her, is she willing to be amicable?


exactly!!! her family will blame me for it all....i know it. i will be the bad guy and all the wrong she did will be overlooked....i know she will be very devastated when I mention it....but once she accepts it I honestly dont know who she will become, amicable or not...who knows...I thought I knew her well enough after 18 years....but she proved me wrong with the A so how am i able to tell anymore...


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## Philat

badmemory said:


> That said, it's certainly common for a one year Dday anniversary to be a trigger. I had some compulsive thoughts about D during that time. But they passed and weren't near as bad on the two year anniversary.


This is a good point.


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## CantBelieveThis

GusPolinski said:


> CBT, does your wife work outside the home at all? Does she have any formal training or education?


yes she is a nurse


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## GusPolinski

Nurses and teachers... Geez...

Just curious... did OM happen to be one of her patients?

Has your wife ever had any documented substance abuse issues?


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## badmemory

CantBelieveThis said:


> exactly!!! her family will blame me for it all....i know it. i will be the bad guy and all the wrong she did will be overlooked....i know she will be very devastated when I mention it....but once she accepts it I honestly dont know who she will become, amicable or not...who knows...I thought I knew her well enough after 18 years....but she proved me wrong with the A so how am i able to tell anymore...


I could "possibly" understand that if it had been 3 or more years; but one year? That's a long enough time to know if R is working and a short enough time that you shouldn't feel guilty about it.


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## thatbpguy

CantBelieveThis said:


> does it mean it was a deal breaker, but you just havent accepted it? am finding it difficult to move past the transgression in general, cuts like a knife, almost seemingly getting worse over time (1 year out from DDay).
> 
> I have seen only a couple stories on here where BS decides to quit the R and move on to D "but" with a remorseful WS whom is doing the right things......
> 
> for the first time ever I am really having strong feelings of ending it all, I mean in ways I havent felt it before, as if there is no way I will ever be able to accept such level of betrayal...how does one tell this is not just another up/down of the challenges of R or whether its for real and it means time to go?
> how does one move on to D with a very remorseful WS? I dont intend to use the D as any kind of revenge or whatever, I know she will be totally devastated and will react very badly (maybe suicidal, unimaginable pain, non stop crying, begging, etc) and as the mother of my kids this concerns me....
> 
> sorry this is my original story on the link below, I guess if you call it that...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/174401-hard-time-dealing-limbo.html


Sometimes betrayal is the deal breaker and R will just not work. And that's just the way it is.

When I was mod of another betrayal board I started emailing with a woman who had betrayed her husband with her boss. She never intended to but office chit-chats became lunches became flirting became having sex a couple of times. She had a very loving husband and two young kids. She was truly remorseful, confessed all and, essentially, placed herself at her husband's mercy to do whatever asked of her to reconcile. Counseling, devoting herself to him, quitting her job…. She tried everything. In the end, he finally filed for divorce. He could never come to grips with her betrayal. He tried, but just couldn't. She was crushed but understood she had made this mess herself.

Point is that if the R doesn't work, it isn't your "fault". Nothing you are doing wrong. The betrayal caused this and as sad as it may be, it is what it is. When faith and trust are totally shattered, it often can never be rebuilt enough to sustain a marriage.


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## Q tip

CantBelieveThis said:


> i know she can sense it...last night out of the blue she told me "am very scared, i think am going to lose you and you are going to leave me....", I didnt say a word.


If only she thought like this before the infidelity...


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## CantBelieveThis

badmemory said:


> I had some compulsive thoughts about D during that time. But they passed and weren't near as bad on the two year anniversary.


my feelings do feel compulsive to be honest.....but I do have new feelings I didnt have before...like now I have pity for her, i feel bad for her because she was so taken advantage of....where before I always so her as having upped on me. I also get these feelings of just not caring for her from time to time....not sure what that means...sorry maybe i do need some better MC/IC to sort out this new feelings and what they mean?


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## thatbpguy

CantBelieveThis said:


> exactly!!! her family will blame me for it all....i know it. i will be the bad guy and all the wrong she did will be overlooked....i know she will be very devastated when I mention it....but once she accepts it I honestly dont know who she will become, amicable or not...who knows...I thought I knew her well enough after 18 years....but she proved me wrong with the A so how am i able to tell anymore...


So what?

You don't live for what they may think. You just tell them. Tell them you have tried to live with being shattered by her betrayal and her loss of love for you and the marriage and loss of respect for you, but just cannot.


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## russell28

I just got past 1 year dday, it's tough with the triggers, and I wanted to just boot her out.. I rode it out because I read on here about raging phase at 6 mos or 1 year, and figured it was that.. but part of me still thinks I might be where you are, it's a deal breaker, but I'm not able to admit it to myself. Trying to go with the '2 to 5 years of good behavior to rebuild trust' that the experts talk about, figure 1 year isn't enough time. I just don't know that I want to spend too much longer trying to figure it all out. It's a tough one...

Then you deal with guilt of putting them through R, as if you should be feeling sorry for them, but in my case, I have some pity and feel sorry that she screwed herself and her family over.. not sure why or how I get those feelings, I guess I'm just wired to care about even people that hurt me. So I worry, "where will she go, what will she do, what will the kids think, how will i pay bills, will i miss her, do i really want to date again, i hated it at 17 years old, must still suck at 50.. it took a long time to find someone, and now I need to start over? Would I want to? Should I become gay? I don't like guys, so probably not... Yea, it's a **** sandwich alright.


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## CantBelieveThis

GusPolinski said:


> Nurses and teachers... Geez...
> 
> Just curious... did OM happen to be one of her patients?
> 
> Has your wife ever had any documented substance abuse issues?


No and No, totally clean always....shes only been a nurse for 1.5 years....


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## badmemory

russell28 said:


> Should I become gay? I don't like guys, so probably not


:rofl:


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## Q tip

russell28 said:


> *Should I become gay?* I don't like guys, so probably not... Yea, it's a **** sandwich alright.


Well, at least the problems and frustrations would be different


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## russell28

Q tip said:


> Well, at least the problems and frustrations would be different


But my wardrobe options could potentially double if I find a guy the same size and build.. so there's that..



Basically, many of us have been through the million questions and anger while trying to R.. I think it's normal and part of the process.


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## Ripper

CantBelieveThis said:


> I also get these feelings of just not caring for her from time to time....not sure what that means...


That is indifference creeping in. Sounds like you are detaching, willingly or not.


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## LongWalk

BH who are dealing with R or forms of R on TAM whom you could invite to read your threads:

Racer – a very smart guy. He has kids. Wife would not deal well with D now. He is not happy with their sex life. He is leaning towards D sometimes. His wife was a serial cheater. Six PA and one EA. He is a wise person.

Harken Banks – also very smart. Has everything going for him. Ski coach. Good job. Wife cheated and still doesn't treat him all that great. Definitely a resource.

Road Scholar – likewise articulate. False R. For 5 months of R he got no pvssy. Finally his wife saw in his eyes that he was going to D. Then she turned on the sex and emotional support. But he struggles with lack to disclosure. Also, although the sex is now pretty good, he has feeling she had wild monkey sex with OM.

TheFlood – Divorced his WW but still sleeps with her from time to time. They have one son. He is a character. Much admired for his fine instincts in dumping WW.

Another guy who name slips me – works in oil and gas. He divorced immediately but has kids and set ex up in a new house. Is is together with her but dates other women. If she dates, they are finished. She tried to rebel but accepts that she does not have him exclusively... oh, yea, his name is Emptyshelldad.

......

Obviously cheating can be a deal breaker. No need to apologize. You might separate and try dating other women if your W wanted to put off D until you decided. You might D and live together. 

Did you ever have hysterical bonding? Was your sex life good when you first were together?

Can she make you feel special now at all? Do you enjoy eating food with her? Do you feel like family at the kitchen table?

There may be techniques to avoid think about OM and her having sex.


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## manticore

There have been alot of cases where the man have tried R and the wife is 100%remorseful doing alot of heavylifting but in the en the husband realizes that the cheating was in fact his deal breaker:

- oldsmitten. (he delated his thread here but maybe still exist the one for marriage builders).
- badblood.
- Rookie4 (in his main thread he tried Rafter alot of of heavy lifting form his XW going as far as asking public apologies in the church to her exhusband, but in the end also failed)
- 2xloser.


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## CantBelieveThis

LongWalk said:


> Did you ever have hysterical bonding? Was your sex life good when you first were together?
> 
> Can she make you feel special now at all? Do you enjoy eating food with her? Do you feel like family at the kitchen table?
> 
> There may be techniques to avoid think about OM and her having sex.


yes we some hysterical bonding but the sex was great before, during (yuk!!) and after the affair....she has always had higher sex drive than me....sex has never been an issue for us at all...

we do enjoy going out , we do it every weekend have a dinner out...and yes she goes to lenght to make me feel special to others...we do both feel like a strong family, have always been...sad insnt it? I try hard, but I just feel like something is broken deep inside....

I dont particularly struggle with mind movies honestly....my struggle is the shocking betrayal, the total disrespect and humiliation...and how she was out doing this while I was home working and watching our kids....totally and innocently unaware of her doings


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## Hope1964

The second year was actually harder for me than the first. Then the third year it got better.

I dunno, I really think that if you're questioning things this much you need to do some soul searching. More IC and/or MC might help, or it might not. Worth a try IMO if you want to put out the effort. But really, if you don't, if you're done, then end it. Don't think or care about what others might think. Be true to yourself. Like someone else said, you could always try a separation for a few months before you do anything legally.


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## harrybrown

Have you let her family and yours know about the affair?

Is she totally transparent about her comings and goings these days?

If you do try a separation, that will give you some time to see what the D might be like.

You might want to also see about talking to attorney to see what financial issues you could face.


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## TimeHeals

LongWalk said:


> His wife was a serial cheater. Six PA and one EA. He is a wise person.
> .


No offense, but you must have left something out of his resume because I don't think "remaining married to a serial cheater' is on anybody's list for the "World's Wisest Person Award" 

Maybe "World's Most Stubborn Person" or "Closet Masochist" awards?


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## LongWalk

You might think that. But his thread is open to you and you can go and ask him straight out.


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## Racer

All sorts of things can go wrong in R. Don’t beat yourself up over it. Statistically, it’s a long shot anyway.
Things that might happen. At first you honestly think you can get past this and forgive. It’s a prediction, not gospel. So, maybe you can’t; It really is far more reaching than you thought. Or maybe you find that damaged trust, tarnished security, and lower respect for your spouse just dims that light enough that she’s no longer “that special one” for you. You recognize some other woman could share your life and you’d be just as happy with that perfect stranger too. Maybe you can’t live with yourself and your damaged ego and shame for staying with someone who did this. Maybe after all this work, you notice the marriage you have is and has been mediocre at best and you’d only tolerated it before because she was your goddess. Now that the pedestal is gone, things aren’t so tolerable. Basically, you took a leap of faith. As long as you can hold your head up high and say you tried, you made it further than most and probably learned a lot along the way.

Old saying: “You earned your divorce.” There’s even a peace that comes knowing flat out that you will be just fine without her. Some, actually feel excitement at that thought…

And her? Well… she sort of gave up her say and shouldn’t be terribly shocked screwing someone else killed the marriage to you. It’s actually rare if it doesn’t…. She got another year with you and I’m sure she watched you struggle. Personally, I’d think it’d be odd if she couldn’t forgive you for doing what the majority of people do in the same situation. She’s already proven she’s nothing special.


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## Ripper

That was awesome.


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## martyc47

Just speaking for myself, the resentment can really be a killer. I try to tell myself I am "better than" that (letting things get to me and go against my calm, rational nature). But I was "better than" being cheated on, too.


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## Cynthia

From what you are saying, it sounds like you thought you knew your wife. You loved her and were happy with her. Then you found out that she was not the woman that you had loved. Her character and how she felt about you were extremely ugly. It was like you thought you were married to the beautiful queen, but it turned out to be a spell and she was the wicked witch. She is doing everything she can to go back to the woman that you thought you had married, but you know it's just a disguise and that underneath that lovely exterior lies the heart of a witch.
Is that how you feel?


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## SADDesign

I'm a betrayed wife, so I hope I'm not busting in on a "guy" thing here. But I feel the same way. I'm on the fence. WH is doing everything right, but it's the loss of respect I can't get over. I married him bc I thought he was smart and made good decisions. It's been ten months for me. His family is also an issue, so I know how you feel about that too. They will always stand behind their son and will rewrite history to suit their needs. I just can't care about that, but it's still there. And OW was also a bottom feeder. For whatever reason, I even find that insulting. Married 20 years next month.


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## LongWalk

What's a bottom feeder? Do you mean she was nothing captivating. It disappointed you that your husband didn't even aspire to cheat with an attractive woman with personality, looks, etc?

re: is the WW a horrible witch?
Some BH read messages between WW and OM in which they are put down, belittled and trashed to OM by the woman who loves them. While it is certain that these WW disrespect their husbands, it is possible that they do love their husbands and are writing to justify their betrayal.

Can such betrayal be forgiven if love is there?

What percentage of marriages survive infidelity? It is not uncommon for BH to want to get their WW back at first, but to later on decide that it is not possible. Eric is one example. But he had no kids.


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## TimeHeals

LongWalk said:


> What's a bottom feeder?.



Only a guess, but... probably not this: Successful female executive who is also known for her honesty, humility, being firm yet kind and her philanthropic works. She speaks 5 languages, and she just gave a TED talk on the importance of Integrity and holding yourself accountable for your own actions 


I am thinking... something near the opposite of that


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## CantBelieveThis

CynthiaDe said:


> From what you are saying, it sounds like you thought you knew your wife. You loved her and were happy with her. Then you found out that she was not the woman that you had loved. Her character and how she felt about you were extremely ugly. It was like you thought you were married to the beautiful queen, but it turned out to be a spell and she was the wicked witch. She is doing everything she can to go back to the woman that you thought you had married, but you know it's just a disguise and that underneath that lovely exterior lies the heart of a witch.
> Is that how you feel?


I say yes, with the exception that perhaps I do not think she has the permanent heart of a witch, i think she has it in her to "be" a witch and something I never knew she could do.....I do believe (right or wrong) that this was a one time huge mistake(s) of hers and she was not her typical self during this time and the she was heavily under the fog influence of the A fantasy along with heavy compartmentalization....
But regardless of what it was or what she is or isnt...is the betrayal am struggling with, even if she never does it again, it takes only once.....


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## CantBelieveThis

LongWalk said:


> Some BH read messages between WW and OM in which they are put down, belittled and trashed to OM by the woman who loves them. While it is certain that these WW disrespect their husbands, it is possible that they do love their husbands and are writing to justify their betrayal.


heck messages between her and I alone during her "fog" and detaching from the OM I still find hard to get over with....take a look at the crap I had to deal with for those 2 weeks after dday while she "mourned" her lover.....


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## GusPolinski

I hope you're not reading ^this stuff regularly.


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## CantBelieveThis

GusPolinski said:


> I hope you're not reading ^this stuff regularly.


believe me I dont have to....that stuff has been "trauma-printed" in my brain....


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## Squeakr

CantBelieveThis said:


> 150% percent sure of this.....and she didnt know he was out on bond the whole time during the A, he kept it from her....*she also didnt find out he was going back to prison until after NC was established*....


The part in bold is the part that makes me curious. NC means just that NC- not through a third party, directly, or any other way. So I wonder how did she find out he was going to prison? Whom told her and why was she interested, as that is not truly NC?

Just because someone is doing what we perceive is all the right things, if they are not doing the things above and beyond and making sure it is what you need, then it is not truly attempting R. For example, maintaining NC and complete transparency are/ should be definite requirements for R, but if the WS is doing these things just not open to discussing and sharing with you regarding them, is it truly doing what is needed or just doing the bare minimum of maintaing NC and transparency. When they say, I am doing nothing wrong, but the only way you know this is through your constantly verifying everything and not them making sure to reassure you they aren't, then it is the bare minimum and not truly attempting R.

You can do the things for R and then you can REALLY DO the things for R to show you are engaged. My ww just feels doing the minimum (or in the case of NC doing nothing) is sufficient as it meets the definition of abiding by the rules, but she is also not doing anything extra to insure that I realize she is making an effort and truly attempting to make amends.


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## LongWalk

But she is ashamed of it now. In truth that is the way she felt. Like a girl in junior high.

If it helps any for R, that honesty that she displayed in those messages are indicative of her character. She cannot hold it in, so if they she now says she loves you, it may be true. She may also be lying now. The idea that she loves you now but loved him more at one point is like eating what would have been a delicious pie, had it not been burnt. And now that the blackened crust has been removed the whole thing still has a scorched flavor. You keep eating another piece in the hope that the bad taste has disappeared but is always there. All you can do is wash it down with cold milk.

I guess you will know you are done and nothing will fix it if she cries and you don't feel so bad. She is eager to have sex and you don't care either way. She hugs you in front of the kids and you wish she would leave you alone.

Has she lost weight or gotten in shape for you?


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## lordmayhem

CantBelieveThis said:


> heck messages between her and I alone during her "fog" and detaching from the OM I still find hard to get over with....take a look at the crap I had to deal with for those 2 weeks after dday while she "mourned" her lover.....


OMG. I can see your point. That would be a deal breaker for me, no matter what she did for R. Those are just so hurtful and disrespectful. 

If you choose to not go thru with R, it would certainly be understandable.


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## lordmayhem

Squeakr said:


> The part in bold is the part that makes me curious. NC means just that NC- not through a third party, directly, or any other way. So I wonder how did she find out he was going to prison? Whom told her and why was she interested, as that is not truly NC?


:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

I'm curious about that also. She shouldn't even be interested to know what he's doing. The right answer should be: "I don't know what he's doing. There's been NC"

Believe me, when I was monitoring my fWW closely, I was looking for ANY indications that she was checking up on OM. To me, even looking at his facebook page or knowing what he's doing is breaking NC, and there would be immediate consequences to that.


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## Philat

CantBelieveThis said:


> believe me I dont have to....that stuff has been "trauma-printed" in my brain....


God, I understand perfectly. Years later I can still recite messages word for word...

CantBelieve, what does your W say NOW about these things she told you THEN?


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## lordmayhem

Philat said:


> God, I understand perfectly. Years later I can still recite messages word for word...
> 
> CantBelieve, what does your W say NOW about these things she told you THEN?


Same here, even after almost 4 years, I can remember just about every message she sent to OM. All the undying love, loves him more than me....all the schmoopy stuff. 

But she NEVER sent the type of messages to me that CantBelieveThis's WW sent to him. I would NEVER EVER be able to get over that, no matter what she did to R.

Sorry, I rarely trigger nowadays, but those messages triggered me.


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## manticore

CBT, Now I completely get why you can't get over it and why you may never will get over it.

the first time you wrote about the affair it sounded as if they agree to end it, and she choose by her own volition to give chance to R and decided that that was what she wanted, but the entire picture Is very different. 

The truth is that you are Plan B, reading the first messages and given what you have shared one can get the following about your story:

- reading the first message, one person can understand thet he was the one who didn't wanted to commit in a relationship with her.

- reading the third message you can conclude he throw her under the buss after the affair was discovered.

- reading the fith message is obvious that she was rewriting history to make you the bad guy and justify she leaving you (is obvious that you were not that bad if you had a romatic trip less yan one year before and the only reason you weren't puttin her that much attention was for work).

- reading the 7 and 8 message is obvious that she had her decission made of who she wanted to be with, she stated to you that she loved him and there was nothing you could do about it.

Then here is the kicker, maybe you don't know it because you haven't check enough threads yet, but many OMs that just want sex from the WW once they want to end the "relationship" use the classic excuse, "you say you love me but you are still with your husband, I can not promise you nothing until you leave him/divorce him.

many OM players know that women normally don't leave their BH until they are sure the OM will acept them in a commited relationship, so that normally is the perfect excuse for them to break the affair when they are done, but in some cases the WW play smart and propose a trial separation to try to convince the OM to fully commit now, if they say no the they can come back to the security of their old home wihtout risking all.

Now with the full picture I am guessing that this is what happened here, he finally tell her no even when she was own her own (as his intention probably was just to have fun until he returned to jail) and she came back to you (that is why the reconcilation and full remorse hit so wel after just 2 weeks, knowing that she had no other choice), the reason she was so pissed when she found he was going to jail was because she finally realized that she was played all along and thats is why she entered in full restorarion mode of the marriage.

I have to say that I was sort of supporting your R, specially when you related the part where your 14 year old came crying to not to break the family, but now that is clear that you were Plan B I have to say that you don't have any reason to feel bad about leaving (if you decide to stop the R), even if is hurtful for your kids they will understand with time, you just have to save those messages and when they are grown ups and have their own commited relationship by showing then 3 and 7 they will understand why Dad could not reaconcile with Mom.

I read sometime ago that a therapist named the kind of situation you are experimenting something like triple humiliation betrayal.

- First when the Bs discovers the affair.
- Second when he/she realize that even being the spouse he/she have to fight for the love of the one who is suposed to be their life partner
- Third when in the end they weren't even choosen but they were the option left.

Marriages normally don't survive to these situations.


----------



## GusPolinski

Philat said:


> *God, I understand perfectly. Years later I can still recite messages word for word...*
> 
> CantBelieve, what does your W say NOW about these things she told you THEN?


Ditto. I am ashamed to say that, in my moments of despair, I have recited some of them -- verbatim -- so that my wife could hear them spoken aloud.

Not exactly productive.


----------



## GusPolinski

lordmayhem said:


> Same here, even after almost 4 years, I can remember just about every message she sent to OM. All the undying love, loves him more than me....all the schmoopy stuff.
> 
> *But she NEVER sent the type of messages to me that CantBelieveThis's WW sent to him. I would NEVER EVER be able to get over that, no matter what she did to R.*
> 
> Sorry, I rarely trigger nowadays, but those messages triggered me.


I had the same exact thought...


----------



## sammy3

CBT,

I'm 3 yrs out. I'm a female. Would have been married 30 yrs this past Jan. I knew the min I found out that my marriage was over. I have been trying to make things work since. H & I always told each other it was a deal breaker. We have been living apart for over 2 years. I just couldn't live with him in my life everyday and try to heal, we fought so much it was toxic, we just separated that way, and never got back together. 

We have always txt and stay in contact 24/7. He comes into the house a few times a month now, we go out to dinners, talk, things as such, but we still have separate sleeping, and he still has his own apt. We go to MC 1x a month, I go to IC,now too. I have no idea of his real life away from me. 

Everything changed for me. I had so much invested into this marriage, that the betrayal is making it impossible to R. I still love him, & he me. We were each other's world. I look at him with sadness & a heavy heart, as I know what should have been, will never be. 

It took me longer than I think should, as I became very ill for about 20some months before I could really work on recovery, and we have just sort of started, the past 8, or 9 months, thou we still dont live w each other, and are not intimate at all. A lot of time apart changes things in a separation.

I reflect back much as you,on horrible emails of professing "love" to the ow, and "wishing he had done this long before." It is for ever imbedded in my mind, him telling me, "It was the best sex ever in my life!" during heated arguments. Things I wish I never ever read. Wish I never knew he said to her. 

It took awhile for my H to "get it" , but the past year he has been nothing short of being the perfect ww. So I understand what you are going thur there. He really believes we will be one of the very lucky few that will make... 

3 years out, I look back with very different eyes. The reasons, the excuses, the timeline, I was living all the same period of the marriage as he, and my choices were so very different than his... 

Someone on this board wrote, "infidelity isn't a problem in a marriage, it's a symptom in a marriage." then another poster added, "that now has become a problem." So it's two folds now. Something the bs doesnt get. They just cant imagine the scars, just like one cant really imagine what infidelity is like until it happens to one. 

I too am taking the 3 to 5 year path subconsciously, wondering, is this a bump that LTM go thur??? will I make 45, 50 ?? get thur it, find love together again? Can a marriage come back? or am I going to live living in limbo? I dunno, as I am hoping the answers will fall into place, but it's far from the healthiest way to go... as my h just said to me, "Dont decide to leave me 5-7 years down the road, it would be so unfair to both of us"... 


-sammy


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

It is irony at it's worst.

At the time, she told you that she didn't feel in love with you.

She came out of the fog, eventually.

Now you don't feel in love with her.

I can't say that I blame you. I feel for ya.

If you find that you can't even fake it anymore, I'd print out those quotes, hand them to her and say that you are done. You're just not in love with her anymore. Let those lines get "trauma-printed" in her brain also. I could help her not to cheat again.

Then, who knows. She may end up saying, or doing something that you didn't expect. Something that gets you thinking. Thinking that maybe you could start trying to trust her, believe her and possibly start falling in love with her again...

I'm sure that there is more than one reason for you to try to stay with her. I feel that the top reason is, the reason that should trump all the others is because you still love her.

Right now you don't. It's understandable why. Unlike her, you are not in a fog. It's not going to clear when reality comes a callin'.

I read your original thread, but I've forgotten(sorry), did you ever separate at all? If not, I have to wonder if it would do some good for you.


----------



## WhiteRaven

Separate for a month. See how you feel. Then make a decision. You got kids. Take it slow and easy.


----------



## Squeakr

GusPolinski said:


> Ditto. I am ashamed to say that, in my moments of despair, I have recited some of them -- verbatim -- so that my wife could hear them spoken aloud.
> 
> Not exactly productive.


I am sorry but I read Gus's comments and think wow these are deep and very revealing and helpful to these situations, and then I see a Jolly smiling John Candy and it is hard to remain focused. Sometimes when I am reading these they come out in a John Candy voice even and that makes it that much harder for me. LOL


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Squeakr said:


> The part in bold is the part that makes me curious. NC means just that NC- not through a third party, directly, or any other way. So I wonder how did she find out he was going to prison? Whom told her and why was she interested, as that is not truly NC?


well they did break NC for this, he texted her when he found out he was going to prison (to apologize...how sweet)...she called him back to get the scoop...she did tell me this some few hours later

as far as the things she told me...I mean I can forgive words said, we all say stupid things and dont mean them...I have called her many mean things since the A which I regret saying....still the betrayal is the hard part by far......

here are some of the things she said about her nasty words when we spoke about them months ago.....


----------



## CantBelieveThis

LongWalk said:


> Has she lost weight or gotten in shape for you?


she did lose weight before the A....has maintained it since....that was one of her complains...how she lost weight and I didnt really pay attention to it....


----------



## Squeakr

CantBelieveThis said:


> well they did break NC for this, he texted her when he found out he was going to prison (to apologize...how sweet)...she called him back to get the scoop...she did tell me this some few hours later


SO then she hasn't been doing everything she really should be doing. She was willing to break NC twice (yes her taking his text was the first instance, he should have been blocked at the least or the number changed if truly wanting NC) and when she called him back. Of course rather than tell you first as NC was in place, she thought only of him and immediately called him back. I think she is doing the minimum am to show she is meeting the boundaries and consequences you both have agreed on and set forth but bet she really isn't invested in the M. Sounds like you are still plan B and will be a modified plan A/B until he is released.


----------



## LongWalk

I don't see how you can draw that conclusion, Squeakr. Explain, please.


----------



## alte Dame

If you want a very mentally/emotionally healthy perspective of a BH who tried to reconcile but decided to divorce instead, I would suggest you read the posts of Lovemytruck.


----------



## Lovemytruck

Just catching up on your thread. Lots of great comments already made.

One of the first points declared by many of us is that there is no time limit for you to decide. Time to R or end limbo is entirely your choice.

The choice to D is also entirely yours.

It seems you are far enough into the process that you can give yourself a fair assessment of where you are emotionally. Your question/thread title implies that you are now ready for a D.

I vote for you to follow your heart. End it.

You owe her nothing. The legal system will require that you give her money and access to kids. That is all you need to give her.

You also are giving her a chance to find a new partner and a fresh start. She might be able to re-prove herself with somebody new. She already damaged you. She might be better off with a different partner, or as a single person.

You are entitled to a fresh start as well. Use your knowledge to help guide your new path. It can be highly rewarding. Some also feel it is treacherous. I feel my choice was a good one. It was good for her (exWW) and me. 

Bless your heart. The whole thing was not your choosing. Life often is cruel and unfair. Use the experience to gain wisdom.


----------



## Lovemytruck

alte Dame said:


> If you want a very mentally/emotionally healthy perspective of a BH who tried to reconcile but decided to divorce instead, I would suggest you read the posts of Lovemytruck.


LOL!!! I just posted!

You are too kind.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Lovemytruck said:


> *Bless your heart. The whole thing was not your choosing. Life often is cruel and unfair. Use the experience to gain wisdom.*


:iagree::iagree::iagree: Sometimes in the end that is all you can do. You've been served a s**t sandwich, you can toss it and order something new. Good luck with whatever you decide.


----------



## Squeakr

I think I did explain it. She didn't block his number, change hers, or do anything to really go out of her way to maintain NC. She is essentially doing nothing here but says she is doing nothing wrong, so in effect doing the bare minimum but not actually doing the heavy lifting.

The first opportunity that came along regarding contact from the OM she jumped onto it whole heartedly and then decided to inform the OP later. Shouldn't she have not contacted the OM and immediately contact the OP? Instead she had her conversation and he is none the wiser as to what was said our took place, as he only knows what she tells him, which is only what she wants him to know.

That is the way I viewed it with my wWW. She wanted kudos and congratulations because she didn't contact the APs and she didn't go see them, even though she wanted to. Wow, I should give you something for doing nothing and praise you for not doing what you shouldn't? Do I get special considerations and rewards each time I don't speed and obey all driving laws? Underage drinking is illegal, so should I get special rewards for not giving alcohol to minors? I think I should get special considerations if I don't yell at her, get mad, or never bring up the A, as counselors will say that is wrong, but no one thinks I am making an effort if I just stop doing or don't do things I shouldn't.

Thinks makes him currently plan A/B as he is the current plan A but is really a plan B in the waiting for her real plan A to enter the picture again.

This is my conclusions and I may be wrong or way off base, but this is how I see it.


----------



## Squeakr

Truthseeker1 said:


> :iagree::iagree::iagree: Sometimes in the end that is all you can do. You've been served a s**t sandwich, you can toss it and order something new. Good luck with whatever you decide.


Because no matter how scrumptious and tempting they make it look it still isn't tasty (believe me I know, and after 1, or 2 bites at best, you will too).


----------



## Philat

GusPolinski said:


> Ditto. I am ashamed to say that, in my moments of despair, I have recited some of them -- verbatim -- so that my wife could hear them spoken aloud.
> 
> Not exactly productive.


But therapeutic?


----------



## harrybrown

What is her response now? 

I feel for you. Would she be willing to leave the family alone and just go away?

How would she feel if you did this? 

Has she changed her phone number so that OM can't call from jail?


----------



## Philat

CantBelieveThis said:


> well they did break NC for this, he texted her when he found out he was going to prison (to apologize...how sweet)...she called him back to get the scoop...she did tell me this some few hours later
> 
> as far as the things she told me...I mean I can forgive words said, we all say stupid things and dont mean them...I have called her many mean things since the A which I regret saying....still the betrayal is the hard part by far......
> 
> here are some of the things she said about her nasty words when we spoke about them months ago.....


But has she in fact said that she did not mean what she said, or that even if she did at the time she now recants? I don't know how someone could ever take things like that back...


----------



## Graywolf2

CantBelieveThis said:


> heck messages between her and I alone during her "fog" and detaching from the OM I still find hard to get over with....take a look at the crap I had to deal with for those 2 weeks after dday while she "mourned" her lover.....


Wow. This is the only way I could stay with her.

1. I would print out the above on a single sheet of paper and give it to her. I would tell her that is what you are asking me to forgive. I would tell her to keep it in her purse because I might ask her to look at it occasionally.

2. I would downgrade her in my mind. Like an army sergeant that is busted to corporal because they screwed up. She would be a [email protected] buddy that helped me raise my kids. If a [email protected] buddy cheats on you it’s not the end of the world.

3. Don’t get her pregnant.

4. Reconsider divorce when the youngest kid is 18.


----------



## Philat

Graywolf2 said:


> I would downgrade her in my mind. Like an army sergeant that is busted to corporal because they screwed up.


Good analogy, Graywolf. I regard myself as having accomplished a successful R, but there is no doubt that fWW has been downgraded in my perception, and not because I had placed her on an unreasonably lofty pedestal to begin with. She was my unconditionally trusted partner once, now she is not.


----------



## larry.gray

Do you know why divorce is so expensive? Because it's worth it.


----------



## alte Dame

Lovemytruck said:


> LOL!!! I just posted!
> 
> You are too kind.




You know that I am trying to stay away, but something sent me to this thread today & I think your voice would really help the OP. I hope he reads your other posts.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

alte Dame said:


> You know that I am trying to stay away, but something sent me to this thread today & I think your voice would really help the OP. I hope he reads your other posts.


i will....i have to! these are the few things that help, knowing you arent alone


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Graywolf2 said:


> Wow. This is the only way I could stay with her.
> 
> 1. I would print out the above on a single sheet of paper and give it to her. I would tell her that is what you are asking me to forgive. I would tell her to keep it in her purse because I might ask her to look at it occasionally.
> 
> 2. I would downgrade her in my mind. Like an army sergeant that is busted to corporal because they screwed up. She would be a [email protected] buddy that helped me raise my kids. If a [email protected] buddy cheats on you it’s not the end of the world.
> 
> 3. Don’t get her pregnant.
> 
> 4. Reconsider divorce when the youngest kid is 18.


good tips, and i certainly cant get her pregnant...i got the snip after our 3rd kid.....and that I did this thinking we would be together the rest of our lives....


----------



## warlock07

How long will this guy be in prison?

Do you have the texts he sent her?

Do you still respect her as a person?


----------



## CantBelieveThis

harrybrown said:


> What is her response now?
> 
> I feel for you. Would she be willing to leave the family alone and just go away?
> 
> How would she feel if you did this?
> 
> Has she changed her phone number so that OM can't call from jail?


I seriously doubt she would be willing to leave the family alone, plus with my job I cant handle the kids on my own...

i am totally convinced the thing with the OM is done and sealed...i monitor all her calls and texts (including content of the texts) and there has never been one to or from the OM since when he called her to tell her he was going lock ups...
and I dont have any concern with them trying to hook up after he gets out....i really do believe this was a one time thing for my wife, I mean she is so back to her normal self of the previous 18 years that it almost seems like a nightmare to me this has happened and that she acted this way

but guess what....none of it might matter one bit, once is all it takes 
:cussing:


----------



## warlock07

Sorry i missed it in you old thread but how did she react once she found out about prison?


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Hi. So sorry to hear what you and your loved ones have been going through due to her horrible choices.

May I ask two things?

1. You mentioned your oldest daughter knows about the affair, has written letters stating she doesn't want you guys to divorce etc. Have you considered getting the kids into family counselling? 

It has helped me tremendously when I started in my mid 20s and I dearly wish I had started much much much sooner. Considering what the kids (certainly her) are going through, I think they need it very much. 

2. Have you considered going yourself to individual counselling, to someone who specialises in PTSD? 

Thank you for answers! Best wishes to all of you


----------



## GusPolinski

Philat said:


> But therapeutic?


Only up until the point that the words actually left my mouth.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

warlock07 said:


> How long will this guy be in prison?
> 
> Do you have the texts he sent her?
> 
> Do you still respect her as a person?


3 years...I have couple days worth of text content they exchanged, but not for the entire month the A lasted.

do i respect her?....i wont lie....i do for the most part yes, dont ask me how or why, maybe its because of how she has been doing heavy lifting for months....and how i see her suffering (many times she cries by herself for over an hour at night locked in the bathroom, I dont always attend to her during this)


----------



## GusPolinski

CantBelieveThis said:


> I seriously doubt she would be willing to leave the family alone, plus with my job I cant handle the kids on my own...
> 
> i am totally convinced the thing with the OM is done and sealed...*i monitor all her calls and texts (including content of the texts) and there has never been one to or from the OM since when he called her to tell her he was going lock ups...*
> and I dont have any concern with them trying to hook up after he gets out....i really do believe this was a one time thing for my wife, I mean she is so back to her normal self of the previous 18 years that it almost seems like a nightmare to me this has happened and that she acted this way
> 
> but guess what....none of it might matter one bit, once is all it takes
> :cussing:


How closely do you monitor the mail?


----------



## GusPolinski

Food for thought...

Have you considered a post-nup? It might be somewhat worthless in your state but it could be seen as at least a gesture of good faith on her part.

Also, I'd consider having her change her cell phone number.


----------



## badmemory

OP, you say she is doing all the right things, and maybe she is. But is she going above and beyond just doing the right things? Does she still apologize regularly? Does she continue to thank you for giving her another chance? Can you see remorse in her eyes? Or is it pretty much back to business as usual? 

It's one thing to get caught in the act and say I'm sorry; it's quite another to get caught and tell you what she did to your face. As I see it, the depth of her betrayal requires an exceptional demonstration of remorse; if that's even enough.


----------



## LongWalk

One possible route is to tell her that you are feeling torn about your marriage. Ask her if you could file for divorce and during the waiting period you could both keep trying. That would give you 6 months or year, whatever it is in your state.

During this period of time you could agree to the following:

1) No discussion about the affair except in MC. Once a week if you have the money or once a month if not.

2) Commit to planned together time, dates.

3) Commit to making your sex life good. You said it wasn't bad. That is a major plus IMO. You know her. Whether you are fvcking her or making love is she into it? Duty sex? No thanks, goodbye. But that hasn't been your problem.

4) Get into your hobbies

5) Listen to her. You say that you respect her despite the cheating. Treat her with respect. If she pays you back in kind, you may feel better as things go on.

........

Do you feel a hunger to enter into a new relationship? Are you afraid of dating? You ought to be able to meet someone new if you divorce. You have a right to opt out. There is no need to feel guilty.

The vasectomy can be reversed. Ask her to pay for that regardless.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

badmemory said:


> Does she still apologize regularly? Does she continue to thank you for giving her another chance? Can you see remorse in her eyes? Or is it pretty much back to business as usual?


oh yea I get that constantly, daily, several times a day....I get emails from her at least once a week....this one she sent last nite...

_I am truly sorry for all of my actions and hurtful words. I know you are suffering and I am as well. I was such a mean and awful person. I am hating myself on many levels for destroying your sacred trust, love and giving myself away to some scumbag low life who saw me at a weak moment. You have been an amazing husband to stand by my side and believe that somewhere deep inside is the girl you fell in love with. I will forever love you.
I am hopeful and pray that you will consider giving our marriage all you have and believe in it with all your heart - even if it's difficult. You and marriage mean the world to me... I was a dumb hateful idiot to even think of giving up on us. I know you will never understand or feel why I felt that way or how I could do what I did. And looking back neither can I. 
I love you abcd... truly I do with all my might. Please, please forgive me, please let me work with you to make this marriage stronger. I believe the foundation is solid but there are flaws. It can be rebuilt with love and commitment. I believe this because God wouldn't have given me you and this amazing unexplainable love if this wasn't so_


----------



## CantBelieveThis

GusPolinski said:


> Food for thought...
> 
> Have you considered a post-nup? It might be somewhat worthless in your state but it could be seen as at least a gesture of good faith on her part.
> 
> Also, I'd consider having her change her cell phone number.


i have asked her and she was hesitant but did ultimately agree....just something I havent followd thru on because am so leaning towards D anyways


----------



## LongWalk

What are the flaws?

Ask her to tell the truth, not what she thinks you want to hear.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

LongWalk said:


> One possible route is to tell her that you are feeling torn about your marriage. Ask her if you could file for divorce and during the waiting period you could both keep trying. That would give you 6 months or year, whatever it is in your state.
> 
> During this period of time you could agree to the following:
> 
> 1) No discussion about the affair except in MC. Once a week if you have the money or once a month if not.
> 
> 2) Commit to planned together time, dates.
> 
> 3) Commit to making your sex life good. You said it wasn't bad. That is a major plus IMO. You know her. Whether you are fvcking her or making love is she into it? Duty sex? No thanks, goodbye. But that hasn't been your problem.
> 
> 4) Get into your hobbies
> 
> 5) Listen to her. You say that you respect her despite the cheating. Treat her with respect. If she pays you back in kind, you may feel better as things go on.
> 
> ........
> 
> Do you feel a hunger to enter into a new relationship? Are you afraid of dating? You ought to be able to meet someone new if you divorce. You have a right to opt out. There is no need to feel guilty.
> 
> The vasectomy can be reversed. Ask her to pay for that regardless.


thanks lonewolf...I would say this is whats crossing my mind, filing for D anyways and see how it goes before its final...well i think it would be a test for me if anything, because I really cant see her doing much more than she already is honestly

sex is awesome, we make love almost daily and she is much into it, very passionate, its certainly not duty sex and this is what makes me believe that somehow she is not faking it...i just dont see how can someone fake passion and sex like that and still be waiting for OM or something as such....

am not really hungry to enter any new relationship really and knowing myself if I leave her I wont have any desire for a long time before I do....i can feel that.....I am very attracted to my wife, and I will miss sex with her for sure. she is extremely good looking and has a great body (yes I did spend thousands on her bob job, and tummy tuck, mommy makeover....) but enough of that, I dont like to brag about my sex life or her looks.....

and for whats worth, her and OM couldnt really have intercourse....he could never get an erection...but whatever, too much detail....


----------



## Gabriel

She obviously smells that you are looking to end it. These kind of emails, etc, are typically sent by someone in the first few weeks after an affair, not a whole year later. Seems odd - the only reason I can think of is that she knows....

Is there any way she could be reading your thread?

Only you can decide what to do. I am a sucker for remorseful people and would probably do whatever I could to make it work, but even I would reach a limit. 

How does she seem when IN your presence? You say she leaves notes, messages, etc, but how does she act when with you?


----------



## Gabriel

CantBelieveThis said:


> heck messages between her and I alone during her "fog" and detaching from the OM I still find hard to get over with....take a look at the crap I had to deal with for those 2 weeks after dday while she "mourned" her lover.....


The long one toward the end is completely devastating. 

The scary part is, I saw maybe 1% of what my wife and her OM said to each other. I wouldn't doubt there was stuff worse than this. I am triggering HUGE.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Gabriel said:


> The long one toward the end is completely devastating.


that one altered my life forever i think.....am with you brother...sorry make you trigger!


----------



## awake1

Gabriel said:


> The long one toward the end is completely devastating.
> 
> The scary part is, I saw maybe 1% of what my wife and her OM said to each other. I wouldn't doubt there was stuff worse than this. I am triggering HUGE.


I saw that same 1%, with ONE (just ONE, there were like 6 or 8 or something OM. I forget how many) and it reads like this garbage. Although in my own case only one was a PA. 

I don't really trigger from it, but I always felt like the OP. 

So no OP, you're not wrong. Even when the FWS does all the right things, or tries to, it isn't always good enough.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Gabriel said:


> Is there any way she could be reading your thread?
> How does she seem when IN your presence? You say she leaves notes, messages, etc, but how does she act when with you?


oh she knows am losing it for her....thats for sure...in my presence she is just as remorseful - this is why am going to find it so difficult to tell her am going to file for D....she is going to be a hot mess.....

she has no clue about these sites, about all she can manage is facebook.....she is totally clueless about forums and stuff like that


----------



## Healer

CantBelieveThis said:


> does it mean it was a deal breaker, but you just havent accepted it? am finding it difficult to move past the transgression in general, cuts like a knife, almost seemingly getting worse over time (1 year out from DDay).
> 
> I have seen only a couple stories on here where BS decides to quit the R and move on to D "but" with a remorseful WS whom is doing the right things......
> 
> for the first time ever I am really having strong feelings of ending it all, I mean in ways I havent felt it before, as if there is no way I will ever be able to accept such level of betrayal...how does one tell this is not just another up/down of the challenges of R or whether its for real and it means time to go?
> how does one move on to D with a very remorseful WS? I dont intend to use the D as any kind of revenge or whatever, I know she will be totally devastated and will react very badly (maybe suicidal, unimaginable pain, non stop crying, begging, etc) and as the mother of my kids this concerns me....
> 
> sorry this is my original story on the link below, I guess if you call it that...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/174401-hard-time-dealing-limbo.html


I ended it after 10 weeks of R...she was mostly doing the right things - trying her best anyway.

For some, it's just a dealbreaker...no getting around it. That was me.

That might be you too - and if so, that's OK. There's no shame in it. And you gave it your best shot, right? Just remember, this was the wayward's choice, not yours. It's not you that has failed on any level, whatever you ultimately decide.


----------



## Philat

CantBelieveThis said:


> that one altered my life forever i think.....am with you brother...sorry make you trigger!


CantBelieve, has she since discussed any of these (but especially this devastating one) with you face to face, owning up to whether or not there is still any truth to what she said? From your description she is sorry in a general sort of way, but I would think she needs to get down in the trenches and grapple with how she could have said these things and what she can do to convince you that your heart is safe with her anymore. She needs to get her hands dirty in order to have any chance of helping you get over the anger and resentment.


----------



## Philat

Gabriel said:


> The long one toward the end is completely devastating.
> 
> The scary part is, I saw maybe 1% of what my wife and her OM said to each other. I wouldn't doubt there was stuff worse than this. I am triggering HUGE.


Hang in there, Gabe.


----------



## Philat

GusPolinski said:


> Only up until the point that the words actually left my mouth.


Sorry, Gus.


----------



## Healer

GusPolinski said:


> Let me say this... *Don't let the experiences of others -- or what they post here -- unduly influence your decisions w/ respect to your reconciliation.* Reading too much of others' experiences into your own situation (funny, usually it's the reverse) will only have you chasing your tail. It can be a vicious circle.
> 
> Think of what you read here as cautionary tales. Continue to be vigilant, but don't everyone else's bullsh*t drive you insane.
> 
> Have you entered into MC? Any IC for either of you?


I don't think that's a real danger. Ultimately a man knows what he's got to do (whatever that happens to be), and no internet post is going to change that.


----------



## Healer

Man, CBT, I really do feel for you. I totally know the anguish you are experiencing. As was mentioned earlier in the thread, fee free to PM me if you like. Stay strong brother.


----------



## Rugs

Please file for divorce if this is what you are putting your wife through. It's pitiful to read her begging for forgiveness and you two not in counseling.

She is doing all she can do and if it's not good enough, you are the one that should let her go or at least separate. 

It sounds like her cheating was just a deal breaker and you have nothing to apologize for of it is bit in all fairness, reconciliation takes both parties.

I say, time to move on
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Healer

Rugs said:


> Please file for divorce if this is what you are putting your wife through. It's pitiful to read her begging for forgiveness and you two not in counseling.
> 
> She is doing all she can do and if it's not good enough, you are the one that should let her go or at least separate.
> 
> It sounds like her cheating was just a deal breaker and you have nothing to apologize for of it is bit in all fairness, reconciliation takes both parties.
> 
> I say, time to move on
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


He's not "putting his wife through" anything. This is 100% self inflicted.


----------



## GusPolinski

Healer said:


> He's not "putting his wife through" anything. This is 100% self inflicted.


Let's not get tripped up over semantics. Rugs is essentially saying the same thing that you are... If CBT knows that -- due to the depth of his wife's betrayal -- he cannot bring himself to fully commit to reconciliation, he should pull the trigger on divorce ASAP.


----------



## gmsisko1

R is hard. I work nights, and sleep days. (Except when I'm off work, then I try to sleep nights to be with my wife)
It has only been less than 3 weeks. I believe my wife is being truthfully and I believe there is true remorse. 
(A few minutes after the first DDay moment, it seems like a truth switch was turned on)
I love my wife, and I want to be with her, but what she did nags my mind. Also, part of me thinks she might be holding some truth back, but it is hard to tell. 
We have a 4 year old, he is sweet and innocent, he needs a stable home.
Again, my wife seems to be truthfull. I Have access to all of her communications, (again, as far as I know) it appears she has not contacted OM and is doing everything right.


----------



## aug

GusPolinski said:


> Food for thought...
> 
> *Have you considered a post-nup?* It might be somewhat worthless in your state but it could be seen as at least a gesture of good faith on her part.
> .





CantBelieveThis said:


> oh yea I get that constantly, daily, several times a day....I get emails from her at least once a week....this one she sent last nite...
> 
> _I am truly sorry for all of my actions and hurtful words. I know you are suffering and I am as well. I was such a mean and awful person. I am hating myself on many levels for destroying your sacred trust, love and giving myself away to some scumbag low life who saw me at a weak moment. You have been an amazing husband to stand by my side and believe that somewhere deep inside is the girl you fell in love with. I will forever love you.
> I am hopeful and pray that you will consider giving our marriage all you have and believe in it with all your heart - even if it's difficult. You and marriage mean the world to me... I was a dumb hateful idiot to even think of giving up on us. I know you will never understand or feel why I felt that way or how I could do what I did. And looking back neither can I.
> I love you abcd... truly I do with all my might. Please, please forgive me, please let me work with you to make this marriage stronger. I believe the foundation is solid but there are flaws. It can be rebuilt with love and commitment. I believe this because God wouldn't have given me you and this amazing unexplainable love if this wasn't so_





CantBelieveThis said:


> sex is awesome, we make love almost daily and she is much into it, very passionate, its certainly not duty sex and *this is what makes me believe that somehow she is not faking it.*..i just dont see how can someone fake passion and sex like that and still be waiting for OM or something as such....


Let see how sorry she really is...

She's working as a nurse now, so she's self-sufficient. What is she willing to give up?

If not a post-nup, perhaps a legally binding paper where she gives you her half of the house or waive any alimony. She'll need to have her own separate legal rep.

As for the sex, does the betrayal pop into your head? If so, do you see the same woman as before? Or, are you just having sex for the release? Is there a part of you that asks why am I even bothering being intimate?


----------



## sandc

Sometimes a penalty has to be paid even after restitution has been given.

Can you two maybe separate for a while?


----------



## BetrayedAgain7

Rugs said:


> Please file for divorce if this is what you are putting your wife through.


He is putting her through nothing. Whatever she is being " put through", is what she brought on entirely by her own selfish and betraying hand.



Rugs said:


> It's pitiful to read her begging for forgiveness and you two not in counseling.


I feel no pity for her whatsoever.
She should beg forever and a day if that is what CBT needs from her and she _genuinely_ wants real R with him. 




Rugs said:


> It sounds like her cheating was just a deal breaker and you have nothing to apologize for of it is bit in all fairness, reconciliation takes both parties.
> 
> I say, time to move on


Agreed. I think you are done with her CBT but you are struggling to really acknowledge this, let alone come to terms and make peace with it.


----------



## Graywolf2

Reasons to divorce:

1.	After what your wife did she doesn’t deserve to grow old with you as a respectable wife.

2.	You want to find someone you can trust and build a relationship with before you get too old.

3.	You can’t stand looking at your wife any longer.

Reasons to stay with her at least until your kids are 18.

1.	Think of her as a nanny with bonuses that you hired to take care of your kids.

2.	If you hire her you can live in the same house with your kids.

3.	If you hire her she is cute and apparently likes to [email protected] you.

You can let her go when the youngest kid is 18. I read about a guy who’s uncle did exactly that. He acted like things were fine and filed for divorce the second the youngest kid left for college.


----------



## turnera

CantBelieveThis said:


> sex is awesome, we make love almost daily and she is much into it, very passionate, its certainly not duty sex
> 
> am not really hungry to enter any new relationship really


Gee, I wonder why. 

Dude, you're being played.

ETA: Haven't you ever seen When Harry Met Sally?


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Graywolf2 said:


> Reasons to divorce:
> 
> 1.	After what your wife did she doesn’t deserve to grow old with you as a respectable wife.
> 
> 2.	You want to find someone you can trust and build a relationship with before you get too old.
> 
> 3.	You can’t stand looking at your wife any longer.
> 
> Reasons to stay with her at least until your kids are 18.
> 
> 1.	Think of her as a nanny with bonuses that you hired to take care of your kids.
> 
> 2.	If you hire her you can live in the same house with your kids.
> 
> 3.	If you hire her she is cute and apparently likes to [email protected] you.
> 
> You can let her go when the youngest kid is 18. I read about a guy who’s uncle did exactly that. *He acted like things were fine and filed for divorce the second the youngest kid left for college.*


Do you know if it was due to a previous infidelity by his wife?


----------



## SADDesign

TimeHeals said:


> Only a guess, but... probably not this: Successful female executive who is also known for her honesty, humility, being firm yet kind and her philanthropic works. She speaks 5 languages, and she just gave a TED talk on the importance of Integrity and holding yourself accountable for your own actions
> 
> 
> I am thinking... something near the opposite of that


Kind of new here, so not sure exactly how replying/quoting works. But this is about right. The OW was a con artist who hooks up with married men and then blackmails them for money. That's how she earns her living. I would call her a bottom feeder. It's disappointing to me that WH fell for her scam, and then subjected himself to her threats and blackmail for over a year. I blame myself for not watching the account he used to pay her off closely enough.


----------



## jim123

CantBelieveThis said:


> heck messages between her and I alone during her "fog" and detaching from the OM I still find hard to get over with....take a look at the crap I had to deal with for those 2 weeks after dday while she "mourned" her lover.....


She was not being hateful, she was being honest. A year ago she was not in love with you. A year ago she would have left you if OM would have taken her.

If a guy like him can get her so easily, what happens when it is someone better.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

Hi. So sorry to hear what you and your loved ones have been going through due to her horrible choices.

May I ask two things?

1. You mentioned your oldest daughter knows about the affair, has written letters stating she doesn't want you guys to divorce etc. Have you considered getting the kids into family counselling? 

It has helped me tremendously when I started in my mid 20s and I dearly wish I had started much much much sooner. Considering what the kids (certainly her) are going through, I think they need it very much. 

2. Have you considered going yourself to individual counselling, to someone who specialises in PTSD? 

Thank you for answers! Best wishes to all of you


----------



## Graywolf2

Graywolf2 said:


> I read about a guy who’s uncle did exactly that. He acted like things were fine and filed for divorce the second the youngest kid left for college.





GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Do you know if it was due to a previous infidelity by his wife?


Yes it was. He found out about her affair. She ended it, said she was sorry and thought everything was fine. Everyone thought it was out of character for his uncle to forgive her so easily but it turned out that he was just biding his time.


----------



## mineforever

Cantbelievethis...you know, R is a ugly hard path to go down for the BS. You have to be willing to give up a part of your ideals of what you thought marriage was (monogamous - can't say that anymore, complete honest/no secrets - can't say that anymore, ect).....you have to go through the stages of the grieving process for your old matriage because that marriage is dead and you have to also rebuild a relationship with this person that betrayed you. So if anyone told you R is for the weak...they didn't have a clue. 

I will give you a success story though. My husband had his affair around our 20yr anniversary..midlife crisis for him and all. Dday came and I got all those I can't live without her shes my soul mate talks too. Like your wife my husband figured out he screwed up and was remorseful. Unfortunarely, once he came home and we started R tried to go NC but that didn't*go*so good, OW wasn't interested in letting go....it took 5 months for him to successfully go NC. That was a long 6 months. We celebrate our 33 wedding anniversary this month and I love and treasure every day I have with him. It really depends on what do you want and how much work are you willing to put into it to fix it. As long as she is truely remorseful and willing to do what it takes to help you heal...its up to you whether you want this marriage or not.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## VFW

To stay or go is a decision that only you can make. She wrote some pretty tough things that did not appear to be fog messages. I would be concerned that if he didn't get remanded into custody, if she would feel as she does today? Possibly this was her wake up call, but is very troubling. I doubt that I could have hung in there as long as you have with this. 

Still you have to realize that divorcing doesn't solve your problems or make them less complicated. You will carry the scars of this a long time. Since you have children, you will forever connected to a certain extent. I don't know your state of residence and waiting period involved, but feel you may benefit with a constructive separation. It may look something like this.

1. 30 days NC, no phone calls, no email, zero. If you stay to a schedule with the kids, it can be done. Naturally, emergencies excluded, but stick to business, no idol chit-chat.
This is time for you to heal and sort out what you want to do without being in drama that is inevitable with living together. Concentrate on you, children, hobbies, exercise to help with stress and make a healthy life style.

2. 30-60 day, just fun family days and light dating, still no sex. Individual counseling to help you gain perspective.

3. 60-90 days continue family days and add weekend sleep over visits. At the end of this time, look for how you will either resume the marriage or how to coparent during divorce.

Some people immediately want to reconcile and are able to move forward, while for others this would just be too much water under the bridge. You have to decide what is best for you and your family. Best of luck to you.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

jim123 said:


> She was not being hateful, she was being honest. A year ago she was not in love with you. A year ago she would have left you if OM would have taken her


i have mentioned this exact thing to her...her strong claim now is she realizes she was just infatuated and caught on the fantasy of the A, and not in real love...she also asserts me that she never really did stop loving me all that time, she was just blind with resentment and anger over my not paying attention to her months before the affair ...whatever, i guess there is always a way to excuse your own wrongdoing after you realize your true F up..


----------



## mineforever

Cantbelievethis...have you ever heard the phrase careful what you wish for... 

I remember the days when I wished he would really own what he had done...own the fact that he had betrayed me...cheated on me for no good reason other than "he was depressed, he could and he wanted to feel happy again". Oh he was remorseful and said sorry and we reconciled but like many many WS he still had some excuses. I still felt he hadn't quite completely owned it. Many years later he got an ah ha moment....the day he really "owned" what he had done. It was one of the worst days of my life to see my husband that broken and destroyed. His head in his hands and refusing to look at me....he wouldn't look me in the eye for days....it broke my heart to see my big beautiful man broken like that. Careful what you wish for.....


----------



## CantBelieveThis

mineforever said:


> It was one of the worst days of my life to see my husband that broken and destroyed. His head in his hands and refusing to look at me....he wouldn't look me in the eye for days....it broke my heart to see my big beautiful man broken like that. Careful what you wish for.....


thanks for that, another point of view i had not thought of and one that I wouldnt really want to be in.....


----------



## sammy3

mineforever said:


> Cantbelievethis...have you ever heard the phrase careful what you wish for...
> 
> I remember the days when I wished he would really own what he had done...own the fact that he had betrayed me...cheated on me for no good reason other than "he was depressed, he could and he wanted to feel happy again". Oh he was remorseful and said sorry and we reconciled but like many many WS he still had some excuses. I still felt he hadn't quite completely owned it. Many years later he got an ah ha moment....the day he really "owned" what he had done. It was one of the worst days of my life to see my husband that broken and destroyed. His head in his hands and refusing to look at me....he wouldn't look me in the eye for days....it broke my heart to see my big beautiful man broken like that. Careful what you wish for.....



Sometimes reality hurts...and sadly, sometimes real R can only begin when the other actually walks in the other's shoes...
((hopefully it doesn't come to that))

-sammy


----------



## Graywolf2

mineforever said:


> I remember the days when I wished he would really own what he had done...own the fact that he had betrayed me...cheated on me for no good reason other than "he was depressed, he could and he wanted to feel happy again". Oh he was remorseful and said sorry and we reconciled but like many many WS he still had some excuses. I still felt he hadn't quite completely owned it.
> 
> Many years later he got an ah ha moment....the day he really "owned" what he had done.


*This sounds like a fever breaking. That’s required for the healing to begin. *



mineforever said:


> It was one of the worst days of my life to see my husband that broken and destroyed. His head in his hands and refusing to look at me....he wouldn't look me in the eye for days....it broke my heart to see my big beautiful man broken like that.


*You obviously really love your husband for his pain to hurt you so much. I hope he appreciates how extremely fortunate he is. *


----------



## Graywolf2

CantBelieveThis said:


> tell me the F about it...p1sses me off to no end...so unfair, and its *lifetime alimony*....is *not feasible for me to leave state due to work *unfortunately....and no my attorney told me basically its the law and its what am facing....he was clear upfront that it was ugly for me....


*Since you have to pay her, get something for it.
*



Graywolf2 said:


> Reasons to stay with her at least until your kids are 18.
> 
> 1.	Think of her as a nanny with bonuses that you hired to take care of your kids.
> 
> 2.	If you hire her you can live in the same house with your kids.
> 
> 3.	If you hire her she is cute and apparently likes to [email protected] you.
> 
> You can let her go when the youngest kid is 18. I read about a guy who’s uncle did exactly that. He acted like things were fine and filed for divorce the second the youngest kid left for college.


*Move to a “friendly” state when your kids are out of the house.
*


----------



## LongWalk

CantBelieveThis,

Can you describe your wife's moment of truth? When did she realize the OM's heart wasn't something noble and pure? When did she come reach the point that she would have avoid him had he appeared? When did her desire for you return?

Did someone ever ask you for a favor that you refused and later were sorry that you had?


----------



## nuclearnightmare

CBT

Are you interestd in seeing other women, finding a better partner? I think there are better women out there, ones that won't cheat on you. What do you think? I, personally, would never accept or believe the love coming from someone who did to me what your wife has done to you. Never. I think she has done and said things that simply cannot be taken back.

But,if she's really willing to do anything to keep you, then she'll allow youto see other women for a period, to help you make a more informed decision on whether to stay with her long term. If I was you I would ask her to do just that.


----------



## jim123

CantBelieveThis said:


> i have mentioned this exact thing to her...her strong claim now is she realizes she was just infatuated and caught on the fantasy of the A, and not in real love...she also asserts me that she never really did stop loving me all that time, she was just blind with resentment and anger over my not paying attention to her months before the affair ...whatever, i guess there is always a way to excuse your own wrongdoing after you realize your true F up..


The love was very real at the time.

You can not let her blame you for the affair.

We BS talk much about what the WS say, however, we should not allow the justifications.

A year ago your wife was in love with another man. Knowing very little about him, she was willing to give up her marriage. She must understand why. She needs to be honest with you and herself. You too need to be honest with her and yourself.

She can not blame you. You can not allow it. She made the choice to cheat and was not forced to do it. That is a big reason you can not R.


----------



## SADDesign

Mineforever, what was it that jolted him into finally owning it?


----------



## 2xloser

Hi CBT - 

Sorry to read where you've been and where it seems you've gotten to. I too was one of those BS who tried R (for 9-10 months) and down the road simply realized it just wasn't going to work for me. She had committed that dealbreaker act, and I wasn't going to get past it, despite her doing all the right things and all the heavy lifting that is so critical to successful R. She read the TAM model for WS trying to earn their way back, and did it all. And she (supposedly) never went full sexual PA!

What I think I realized, in the midst of an MC session while the counselor was telling us she thought we were "going to make it" was that just like the marriage itself, it takes 2 people working at R to make it successful. She was still working at R, but I had stopped because I simply realized SHE was a trigger for me -- sooner or later, every "nice moment" was tainted with a memory, mind movie, or thought of disgust. I didn't fully trust her anymore, never would, and began to resent her for the person I had now become and it was growing. I simply deserved better than a life of always wondering what she was really thinking deep inside, who she was thinking about, and whether I could trust her.

The moment I brought up the word divorce in MC, most everything basically stopped and she went into self-protection survival mode. I moved out a few weeks later... that was a couple years ago now and though we've not formally D yet, we live separate lives other than co-parenting.

My point in saying this is only to have you step back and look in the mirror and ask yourself if you are really trying too, or just going along for the ride? For me, I tried for months, but then I stopped and I really think that was the final end. And if I understand correctly the type of person you are, I guarantee that you'll have moments of doubt, missing the marriage, and will look back and ask "did I really try my best?"... but here's the thing: whether you are or you aren't, if you're now really feeling this way it tells you everything -- You don't want it anymore, no matter how much she's trying to make it right. Everything else -- the money, the family, the keeping of appearances, the separating of lives -- very quickly become secondary once you move toward what you actually want.

I love fresh bread, fruit or good wine, but once they go bad, I can't stomach them.

So my story is just one more input for ya; you have to do what is right for YOU, no one else (including her). Happy to talk it out more with you if it helps, here or PM. Good luck, I feel your pain.


----------



## mineforever

SADDesign said:


> Mineforever, what was it that jolted him into finally owning it?


I don't want to hijack this thread with a very long story but I had decided to try one more time to get the relationship I wanted with my husband. I put all my attention into him and our relationship. I didn't do what most would recommend but it is what worked for us. It worked...it worked a little to well though. His "ah ha" moment came at one of our happiest times together.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

LongWalk said:


> CantBelieveThis,
> 
> Can you describe your wife's moment of truth? When did she realize the OM's heart wasn't something noble and pure? When did she come reach the point that she would have avoid him had he appeared? When did her desire for you return?
> 
> Did someone ever ask you for a favor that you refused and later were sorry that you had?


moment of truth? I think it was about 3 weeks after DDay?...we had agreed that we would give it 90 days to try out and see if things worked...after those weeks she tells me she wants me back and that we didnt need to have any 90 days trial, I think thats when she fully realizes what she has done....


----------



## CantBelieveThis

nuclearnightmare said:


> CBT
> 
> Are you interestd in seeing other women, finding a better partner? I think there are better women out there, ones that won't cheat on you. What do you think? I, personally, would never accept or believe the love coming from someone who did to me what your wife has done to you. Never. I think she has done and said things that simply cannot be taken back.
> 
> But,if she's really willing to do anything to keep you, then she'll allow youto see other women for a period, to help you make a more informed decision on whether to stay with her long term. If I was you I would ask her to do just that.


am not really interested in seeing other women really, is the last thing on my mind right now...and yes absolutely agree there are women out there that wont cheat.....but I dont know if I would date someone while am still with her, i think that sort of lowers my standards and why should I become someone I am not just because of what she has done?....


----------



## CantBelieveThis

2xloser said:


> So my story is just one more input for ya; you have to do what is right for YOU, no one else (including her). Happy to talk it out more with you if it helps, here or PM. Good luck, I feel your pain.


I really enjoyed reading your post, will drop you a PM


----------



## Just Joe

CantBelieveThis said:


> i have mentioned this exact thing to her...her strong claim now is she realizes she was just infatuated and caught on the fantasy of the A, and not in real love...she also asserts me that she never really did stop loving me all that time, she was just blind with resentment and anger over my not paying attention to her months before the affair ...whatever, i guess there is always a way to excuse your own wrongdoing after you realize your true F up..


I suggest that rebuilding your marriage is like rebuilding a house. You have to stack one cinderblock on top of another. To have solid sturdy cinderblocks on the upper level will do no good if the cinderblocks below it are unstable and crumbling.

Her having sex with you twice a day and begging and pleading and apologizing and catering to your every need are the cinderblocks on top. What you posted above is the cinderblock at the base of your problem. Until you take care of this with your wife, you are not going to feel good about reconciling.

I think she has to explain it in a way that it feels true to you. Then you will be able to forgive and move on.

As long as you are using words like "her strong claim," "she asserts" and "whatever," you are not going to get to the proper place to rebuild your marriage. Try explaining to her what you need from her, she has to dig deeper, it will be hard for her to look at that part of herself, she is avoiding it and trying to overcompensate by those other things she is doing for you.


----------



## Graywolf2

CantBelieveThis said:


> moment of truth? I think it was about 3 weeks after DDay?...we had agreed that we would give it 90 days to try out and see if things worked...after those weeks she tells me she wants me back and that we didnt need to have any 90 days trial, I think thats when she fully realizes what she has done....


So she was sending you those terrible texts during those 3 weeks? 

Rereading her texts knowing that they were made within the first 3 weeks of the 90 day trial period sheds new light on them. 
She was torn between the OM that she loved and her family responsibilities. 

She reluctantly (her parents probably twisted her arm) gave you another chance. She wanted to be honest with you that your chances were not good. She also wanted you to know what she would be sacrificing if she stayed with you.

I bet she had a great time shopping between her two men during those 3 weeks. It’s like the show “House Hunters.” One house is in a great location while the other has an attached garage. They both have advantages but which one do I want?

When she found out that the OM was going to jail she freaked out. One of the 2 houses she was having such fun deciding between turned out to be a vacant lot. 

It’s like finding out that you almost invested your life savings in something that turned out to be a scam. Now your house is now perfect, perfect, perfect.

Something that happened to my son might illustrate how your wife felt. He was going fast down a path on an all-terrain vehicle when he saw another ATV coming right at him. He could have served to the right or left but went to the right for no particular reason and ended up in some bushes. He found out later that a cliff was to the left.


----------



## jim123

Graywolf2 said:


> So she was sending you those terrible texts during those 3 weeks?
> 
> Rereading her texts knowing that they were made within the first 3 weeks of the 90 day trial period sheds new light on them.
> She was torn between the OM that she loved and her family responsibilities.
> 
> She reluctantly (her parents probably twisted her arm) gave you another chance. She wanted to be honest with you that your chances were not good. She also wanted you to know what she would be sacrificing if she stayed with you.
> 
> I bet she had a great time shopping between her two men during those 3 weeks. It’s like the show “House Hunters.” One house is in a great location while the other has an attached garage. They both have advantages but which one do I want?
> 
> When she found out that the OM was going to jail she freaked out. One of the 2 houses she was having such fun deciding between turned out to be a vacant lot.
> 
> It’s like finding out that you almost invested your life savings in something that turned out to be a scam. Now your house is now perfect, perfect, perfect.
> 
> Something that happened to my son might illustrate how your wife felt. He was going fast down a path on an all-terrain vehicle when he saw another ATV coming right at him. He could have served to the right or left but went to the right for no particular reason and ended up in some bushes. He found out later that a cliff was to the left.


She was not torn at all, it was OM. OM rejected her. He did not want to play house with his final weeks of freedom.

The only reason OP is still married is his wife picked the wrong OM. Otherwise his D would be final about now.

Since his wife is still blaming OP for the A, there is not true remorse. Until she is honest with OP and herself, true R is not possible.

That is what is missing and a big part of why OP is struggling.


----------



## LongWalk

CantBelieveThis,

If you did something nice for your wife would it make you angry and resentful?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## Just Joe

As someone else posted, she very well may have been torn between breaking up her kids' happy home and going to be with what she felt was her at-the-time soulmate.

Maybe she decided to see if she could make it work with her husband for the kids' sake, putting her own desire to be with other man aside, in her mind "sacrificing her own happiness" for a 90-day trial to reconnect with her husband. After a couple of days, she re-committed to her husband. Why? That is what is causing the problem. Did other man dump her? Did she find out about his upcoming jail sentence, did she somehow realize that the other man was just lying to her all along just to get sex? Or did she really realize the she truly loved her husband? If it is the last of these, then I don't think her husband is convinced. He needs to know what were the inner workings of her mind, her thought process. He has been married to her long enough to know how she thinks, and to me it seems that he doesn't believe her on this point that is important to him, and it is messing with him.

However, one year out, I don't believe she would be able to fake being in love that long. I think she has recommitted and is back in love. I think she is not as strong of a person as he is, does not have the same strength of character as he does, and it is tough for her to come clean about her feelings at the time she recommitted to him. And to do so may be an initial set back to the reconciliation, but ultimately is needed for him to be able to go on with the relationship. But I am rooting for him to get to the bottom of it, for her to give him the answers he needs, and for them to reconcile.

Only she knows the truth, everything else is just conjecture.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

jim123 said:


> She was not torn at all, it was OM. OM rejected her. He did not want to play house with his final weeks of freedom.
> 
> *The only reason OP is still married is his wife picked the wrong OM. Otherwise his D would be final about now.*
> 
> Since his wife is still blaming OP for the A, there is not true remorse. Until she is honest with OP and herself, true R is not possible.
> 
> That is what is missing and a big part of why OP is struggling.


I think that this is true in many of the similar threads here. That their "Mr Right"(OM) had just turned into Mr Right Now. Their fantasy had ended due to the OM and not because of anything the BS did, or said.

I have to wonder how soon, if at all, she would have come out of the fog had he not gone to jail. I also wonder that if it'd happened once, would it happen again...


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Graywolf2 said:


> So she was sending you those terrible texts during those 3 weeks?


no, that only took place for a couple days after NC....



Graywolf2 said:


> She was torn between the OM that she loved and her family responsibilities.
> 
> She reluctantly (her parents probably twisted her arm) gave you another chance. She wanted to be honest with you that your chances were not good. She also wanted you to know what she would be sacrificing if she stayed with you.


yes this for sure!!!



jim123 said:


> She was not torn at all, it was OM. OM rejected her. He did not want to play house with his final weeks of freedom.
> 
> The only reason OP is still married is his wife picked the wrong OM. Otherwise his D would be final about now.
> 
> Since his wife is still blaming OP for the A, there is not true remorse. Until she is honest with OP and herself, true R is not possible.
> 
> That is what is missing and a big part of why OP is struggling.


yes I definitely think OM saw the whole thing busted and he didnt want to deal with all her drama, crying, etc...but she also tells me she felt she needed to end it and give me a chance, and for the kids, she felt she had to "try" and give it a chance....so yes the kids had a lot to do with it rather than me.....




LongWalk said:


> If you did something nice for your wife would it make you angry and resentful?


no it wouldnt....



Just Joe said:


> As someone else posted, she very well may have been torn between breaking up her kids' happy home and going to be with what she felt was her at-the-time soulmate.


yup this...but she denies he was her "soulmate"....he just made her happy at a time she needed it the most....whatever!



Just Joe said:


> Maybe she decided to see if she could make it work with her husband for the kids' sake, putting her own desire to be with other man aside, in her mind "sacrificing her own happiness" for a 90-day trial to reconnect with her husband. After a couple of days, she re-committed to her husband. Why? That is what is causing the problem. Did other man dump her? Did she find out about his upcoming jail sentence, did she somehow realize that the other man was just lying to her all along just to get sex? Or did she really realize the she truly loved her husband


I agree with the first sentence...she had to do it for the kids if anything, definitely....
I am not struggling with whichever reason she decided to recommit and she strongly denies that it had anything to do with finding out the OM was going to jail....do I believe her? I dont know.....but does it bother me? not much....really my problem here is just getting over her betrayal plain and simple...not the details of how or why she recommitted because I agree with you that she couldnt fake all this love for me for a year


----------



## Just Joe

CantBelieveThis said:


> he just made her happy at a time she needed it the most....whatever!


What was so terrible that it was "a time she needed it most"?

Correct me if I don't remember correctly, but you posted that you were caught up in work and not paying her enough attention for a few months. Is that what was so terrible in her life, the cause of her deep unhappiness? I assume people of our age have been through some stuff in our lives, not being paid enough attention for a few months hardly would qualify as "a time she needed it most." Especially if she didn't even mention it to you.


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## CantBelieveThis

Just Joe said:


> What was so terrible that it was "a time she needed it most"?


she was (still is) looking the best she ever did, had gotten past all the cosmetic surgeries and lost weight, and she says I wasnt paying attention to any of that which she had worked so hard for....that apparently was enough for her to feel as if I didnt care for her so this lowered her boundaries....typical story I read about in a lot of places and books.


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## jim123

CantBelieveThis said:


> she was (still is) looking the best she ever did, had gotten past all the cosmetic surgeries and lost weight, and she says I wasnt paying attention to any of that which she had worked so hard for....that apparently was enough for her to feel as if I didnt care for her so this lowered her boundaries....typical story I read about in a lot of places and books.


One of the highest rates of cheating is women who have such surgeries. She has self esteem issues that need to be addressed.

It is a typical story and it is always a bunch of bull.

Do not let her blame it on you and R will not happen if she does blame you.


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## VFW

CantBelieveThis said:


> she was (still is) looking the best she ever did, had gotten past all the cosmetic surgeries and lost weight, and she says I wasnt paying attention to any of that which she had worked so hard for....that apparently was enough for her to feel as if I didnt care for her so this lowered her boundaries....typical story I read about in a lot of places and books.


I agree with Jim, this is straight up blame shifting. Somebody has to be at fault and she has chosen you. She could be correct that she felt neglected, but she could have confronted you, demanded you two go to counseling or just straight up leave you. She chose instead to have an affair.


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## Philat

VFW said:


> I agree with Jim, this is straight up blame shifting.


Yep, a crystal clear instance.


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## aug

If she's still blameshifting, then she's not remorseful. And that's probably why, a year or so out, you can't get over her betrayal..


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## Horizon

I'm beginning to get the whole fantasy thing my ex WS went on about. 14 months out and when you have a clearer head you can more unemotionally review all the sh*t you have been through.

All his communication was about sex - with a few compliments here and there. I think he genuinely liked her but she was ultimately just another bang. When things went off the boil he reminisced a bit about their lunch dates, pushed the "if only" and "in another time and place" line and then wanted to hook up for some more action. 

Ultimately she read that - she was trying to ease her way out of it. So she recognised that it was fantasy. She could see her own behavior. She did wake up to herself. But despite this those hooks were still in deep on both sides. She saw how 'unreal' it was but she could still be seduced; hence the line - "I was hoping we could still talk but if we can't I will really miss you"

But the thing for me is that she could not have these conversations with me after the fact. She stuck diligently to her BS about it being boring and it meant nothing - there was no passion etc etc. Her constant line was - it was all 'fantasy'. But she used that word the wrong way. She used it to minimise and all it did was humiliate my intelligence.

If she had had the guts to talk truthfully about it then at least it may have reduced my agony. And I possibly would not have had to go through quite as much anguish. Maybe nothing would have changed but at least i would have felt that I could believe her - that she realised it did not reduce her culpability but that she was confessing that she got caught up in it. That she lived it fully for what it was worth.

Because such great lies followed the greatest lie it's just impossible to accept anything. She would not validate my thoughts and feelings and plain accused me of having it all wrong. That further and continuing humiliation I will not forgive. Keeping in mind that I believe I will forgive her one day - for my own peace of mind that is.


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## Just Joe

CantBelieveThis said:


> I am not struggling with whichever reason she decided to recommit and she strongly denies that it had anything to do with finding out the OM was going to jail....do I believe her? I dont know.....but does it bother me? not much....*really my problem here is just getting over her betrayal plain and simple...not the details of how or why she recommitted because I agree with you that she couldnt fake all this love for me for a year*


I don't think a year is long enough, not in your situation. You have three kids, I think you said one is a young teen and the other two aren't even teenagers yet. If you didn't have kids, then I'd say separate, even divorce. If they were living in a house where you were at war with her, then separating or divorce might make more sense, they are already being damaged by what's going on inside the house. If you were extremely unhappy with the situation, if your wife wasn't doing everything right in your eyes, then maybe separation and divorce would make sense.

To me, kids make all the difference in a situation like this. You can cite statistics and tell me kids are resilient all you want, but I've seen it too much with my own eyes to believe that divorce doesn't have a negative effect on kids a lot of the time.

Give it more time, mark the calendar for six months from now and re-evaluate it then. It sucks that this happened to you, but I think when you factor your kids into the equation it makes a difference in how much time you should give it. Hopefully after more time you will start to feel more strongly about one course of action over the other, either staying together or splitting up.


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## LongWalk

Have you tried doing something nice for your wife? Maybe if you treat her like the special woman in your life she will give back even more.

I don't think you ever have to give up your right to seek a divorce. Having that should empower you to feel that staying is your choice.

Maybe when things are going well, you should tell your wife that sometimes you feel like throwing in the towel but at the moment you are happy. I don't think you should leave her in the dark.

You should not speak in anger about the affair.


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## WhiteRaven

I have a gut feeling- 

Your wife wants to be with you coz there is no where else to go. Her A was supposed to be an exit A. Another OM comes who wants to play house, she'll gladly leave you. She's still with you coz she can't bear to be alone. Sex is more about appeasing you rather than having any feeling towards you. You may choose to R, but it'd end in her leaving you in the future. 

I hope I'm wrong, bro.


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## LongWalk

I don't get that feeling White Raven. I think CantBelieveThis's wife is a real contrast to Acoa's WW. I would never tell Acoa to R. He should D his actress wife for many reasons. They have children, too.

Acoa's wife said that she wanted to grow old with him. She cheated more than once. This was Dday number two. So, I suppose her idea of growing old together was that he could have sexual exclusivity once her vagina was dried out and post menopausal. Absurd.

CBT's wife is a decidedly more straight forward person. When she was in love with POSOM she admitted it. After three weeks of cold turkey she turned the corner. That is fast for having been in love, even it was not the end of the process.

Is the sexual desire and pleasure she shows fakery? We can't know. But CBT believes she is into it. A man ought to know his wife in bed. 

He says that he respects her as person in spite of all. That also counts for something.

The big difference in their relationship now is the power shift. Right now he can be cruel or demanding and she has to take it. That can only go on for a certain period of time before it demeans the both of them. She has to be able to defend herself against the unreasonable. There has to be compromise in their life.

In R maybe a BH can bang his WW doggy and call he his beetch to get out primal anger, but afterwards he can't say, "I'll bet you did like this with OM, too."

Hopefully in successful reconciliation a couple can be like Mr. and Mrs. John Adams.

And sure kids make a difference. You even have to love a woman for giving you kids even if you hate her guts.

At the end of the day everyone has to know what they can or cannot live with. Just knowing a woman is in a EA can be unimaginably horrible. It may be a deal breaker just to see your wife smile at another man the wrong way.


----------



## WhiteRaven

I hope I'm wrong LongWalk. It's never fun seeing families break up.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

very good response LongWalk....

well...I had a long conversation with her last night. She approached me that she wanted to talk because she felt I was being distant and she was worried. I told her that I have been feeling lately like I cant go on with the betrayal and she gave me a long stare and said this was all her fault and she would be totally responsible for the breakup of the marriage and that she understood if I had to leave....that I didnt have to live like this
But then she started to cry very deeply, repeating how stupid she was, what was she thinking, she destroyed it all, didnt think of her children, gambled with the family we built, wish she could take back the entire thing, etc....

She then proceeded to tell me how much she loves me and how she will do anything, anything at all that I ask to save the marriage...she brought up things like telling anyone I want to know about it, taking the polygraph, signing pre-nup (this was w/o me even bringing it up at this time), she begged a number of times to please give her a chance and forgive her that she will never ever get even close to cheating again....all of this while crying to the point of her voice and words very broken up....this went on for a good 15-20min....she then said towards the end that she wants us to go back to counseling because she wants to do anything to save us and keep the family together. 

I know it sounds like the same song and dance...but this time for some reason I really did feel her pain like never before...I have a hard time believing she is not being honest about how she feels. 

So I told her I would give counseling one more try and see how it goes, but if that didnt work that then I would want a separation no questions asked. 

I am still torn, I still feel very strongly about her betrayal and was very clear to her about this.....but last night I saw something in her that tells me I need to keep trying a little longer. I know what some might think she is playing a game on me and desperate for losing her lifestyle...but its a different story when you are actually facing the totally broken down individual. If she wanted someone else, with her looks and what not , she could have had one by now....I cant get myself to believe she has been faking her love for me all this time, sex and all....I believe she is truly remorseful and regrets what she has done.


----------



## turnera

I do, too.


----------



## GusPolinski

turnera said:


> I do, too.


Ditto.

Some additional thoughts... 

* Insist that she start working full-time. As you say, nurses can make very good money. 

* Commit to MC, and go all in. Don't mope. Actively participate. Give it another year. I can tell that your children are worth at least that to you. If, at the end of the year, you're not feeling it, initiate divorce proceedings.

By that time, she'll have been working full-time and would be much more capable of supporting herself (AND there will check stubs to support this notion), which will likely mitigate -- if not eliminate -- any alimony that you'd have to pay as a result of divorce.

Tell her that this is just as important (even not even more important) to you as the post-nup and poly.


----------



## missthelove2013

CantBelieveThis said:


> heck messages between her and I alone during her "fog" and detaching from the OM I still find hard to get over with....take a look at the crap I had to deal with for those 2 weeks after dday while she "mourned" her lover.....


your mistake was even trying to R after reading this crap...this R was doomed from the get go, you need to follow your gut and, like any other giant life decision, take a step off the ledge and do it...imo of course


----------



## Philat

CantBelieve, I agree with some others that this sounds like genuine remorse. This is a necessary but not sufficient prerequisite for R. You still need to find out whether or not you can get past the very fact of betrayal (a fact that cannot be changed or undone). I think we'd still like to see her specific explanation for the "I know when I go to bed thinking of him" text, i.e. what does she think she needs to do to prove to you that she no longer feels this? How does she think you would ever get over this (which you have described as "life-changing)?


----------



## Gabriel

I read your posts and am insanely jealous of the remorse your wife is showing you. I wish I had even half of that remorse from mine. I suppose this is why I am a sucker for remorseful WS in stories like this. I read your posts and am in the camp of "of course you should give her another chance". 

That said, I think your stance is a good one. Give it a go with the counseling and see if your feelings for her come back. It sounds like she's opened a crack. Sometimes that's all it takes but you'll need more than that to make it work long term.


----------



## bigfoot

Cantbelieve,

Whatever you do, it must feel right to you. That being said, I completely get your feelings. Sometimes it is a deal breaker. Nothing changes that. Remorse, after the fact, does not negate THE FACT of infidelity. 

Divorce is not a punishment and marriage is not a reward. She can be doing all the right stuff, but it is not a punishment to say that it is over. And by over, I mean the attempt to rebuild a marriage. I hate the term reconciliation because it suggest that both parties were at fault. Your marriage was destroyed, you suffered catastrophic damage as you learned about why it was destroyed and how it was destroyed. Now, the destroyer is sorry and wants to rebuild. It is noble and good that she wants to rebuild, but desired outcome and outcome are two different things.

In short, if you can't shake it, there is nothing wrong with acknowledging that the damage was too severe to be rebuilt with love and apologies. Maybe after you finalize the marriage you might elect to start over. On the other hand, you might realize that you made the best decision that you could have ever made in your life. If I were you, I would end it. If I were her, I would expect you to end it, even though I would not want that. Since I am me, I can only say, it is not a reward for present good behavior nor punishment for past wrongdoings, it is a result of actions that can never be undone. Good luck.


----------



## Ripper

Counseling and if it fails, the separation will serve two purposes. Working towards a _possible_ reconciliation and buying time to see if Florida's divorce laws become less insane. Really, what else can you do other then commit financial seppuku by filing now.

In the end, if its a deal breaker today, it will be tomorrow. Nothing wrong with playing along for a time to get a better deal. This is the rest of *your* life after all.


----------



## Q tip

So many complexities going on in your mind. Simple responses are not enough for you. Your mind and heart are complex .. That's why. 

This is a road you've been forced to travel. If this never happened, you both would be elsewhere in your relationship. She is begging for another chance and might see the light. Trust is gone. I do not believe this is quite the issue. It is you that has the decision that effects all. She already put that in motion with her betrayal. Ultimately, your power and decision. It is an awful decision that is tormenting you and by default, her.

Would you date someone with betrayal in their background. Well, you're married to one. No disrespect, but would you buy a car that's been in a bad wreck? Probably not. Too many long term issues to deal with. 

IMHO, we are all given one chance at the start of marriage that ends upon betrayal. She had the same chance that you and all of us had. She cashed it in already. What's left is your part.

Many say R is a low percentage activity. It could last a year, two, five or 35. Mr & Mrs John Adams are examples of success. There are many many more who aren't. 

The responsibility is hers, closure is yours. You have history together, overshadowed by betrayal. Neither will ever go away. A fresh start with a deserving spouse, stay single, or stay married.

Is your apprehension fear of the unknown? No decision IS a decision. Perhaps a D and start dating her and others and see where it goes? You can always marry her again or move on.


----------



## aug

Now is a good time to improve your financial position (and a good time to test her).

Get her to waive alimony should you decide to divorce. Make sure she has her own legal representation.


----------



## azteca1986

CantBelieveThis said:


> well...I had a long conversation with her last night. She approached me that she wanted to talk because she felt I was being distant and she was worried. I told her that I have been feeling lately like I cant go on with the betrayal and *she gave me a long stare and said this was all her fault and she would be totally responsible for the breakup of the marriage and that she understood if I had to leave....that I didnt have to live like this*


Fine words. 



> But then she started to cry very deeply, repeating how stupid she was, what was she thinking, she destroyed it all, didnt think of her children, gambled with the family we built, wish she could take back the entire thing, etc....
> 
> She then proceeded to tell me how much she loves me and how she will do anything, anything at all that I ask to save the marriage...she brought up things like telling anyone I want to know about it, taking the polygraph, signing pre-nup (this was w/o me even bringing it up at this time), she begged a number of times to please give her a chance and forgive her that she will never ever get even close to cheating again....all of this while crying to the point of her voice and words very broken up....this went on for a good 15-20min....she then said towards the end that she wants us to go back to counseling because she wants to do anything to save us and keep the family together.


There's a couple of concessions thrown in, but it's still all about her.



> I know it sounds like the same song and dance...but this time for some reason I really did feel her pain like never before...


Wait. Hold on. So, after 20 minutes of her showing 'true remorse'... YOU FEEL HER PAIN. It's all about her. Again. Still. One year later. It sounds like the same old song and dance because you're still being manipulated. Just like the time when she elicited your daughters help to put the blame for any marriage break up squarely on you. What about your pain? You're the betrayed spouse. When does that get a look in?

I'm sorry. People sometimes see only what they want to see.


----------



## jim123

CantBelieveThis said:


> very good response LongWalk....
> 
> well...I had a long conversation with her last night. She approached me that she wanted to talk because she felt I was being distant and she was worried. I told her that I have been feeling lately like I cant go on with the betrayal and she gave me a long stare and said this was all her fault and she would be totally responsible for the breakup of the marriage and that she understood if I had to leave....that I didnt have to live like this
> But then she started to cry very deeply, repeating how stupid she was, what was she thinking, she destroyed it all, didnt think of her children, gambled with the family we built, wish she could take back the entire thing, etc....
> 
> She then proceeded to tell me how much she loves me and how she will do anything, anything at all that I ask to save the marriage...she brought up things like telling anyone I want to know about it, taking the polygraph, signing pre-nup (this was w/o me even bringing it up at this time), she begged a number of times to please give her a chance and forgive her that she will never ever get even close to cheating again....all of this while crying to the point of her voice and words very broken up....this went on for a good 15-20min....she then said towards the end that she wants us to go back to counseling because she wants to do anything to save us and keep the family together.
> 
> I know it sounds like the same song and dance...but this time for some reason I really did feel her pain like never before...I have a hard time believing she is not being honest about how she feels.
> 
> So I told her I would give counseling one more try and see how it goes, but if that didnt work that then I would want a separation no questions asked.
> 
> I am still torn, I still feel very strongly about her betrayal and was very clear to her about this.....but last night I saw something in her that tells me I need to keep trying a little longer. I know what some might think she is playing a game on me and desperate for losing her lifestyle...but its a different story when you are actually facing the totally broken down individual. If she wanted someone else, with her looks and what not , she could have had one by now....I cant get myself to believe she has been faking her love for me all this time, sex and all....I believe she is truly remorseful and regrets what she has done.


This is a big first step for her. This is also a very good sign. If you are going to try, give it 100% too.

There is no shame in that.

She now has remorse. If you reach out to her, you can have something special.


----------



## LongWalk

Sometimes the wayward is not doing it only because they love the BS. They also want to recover their sense of identity. If they felt they were upright, returning wholeheartedly to the BS is a way of reclaiming decency. Grateful affection for BS is part of it. That is why there is a word fond, which may be as deep as love even if it does not burn.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

People will say that the heart wants what the heart wants, and shrug their shoulders because it's not always logical. It looks like you have something similar, i.e. Your circuit breaker is your circuit breaker. If you can't get over it, then you gotta move on. Don't be guilt tripped into delaying the inevitable. To build on this thought, logic dictates that you keep her because she's attractive, mother to your kids, she's truly remorseful and that your life is nice if you don't divorce. However, if you cannot emotionally come to terms with the betrayal, you'll ruin yourself emotionally. 

Your ego needs what your ego needs. That's not meant to be a pejorative.

Good luck with what you decide.


----------



## mineforever

Just thought I would check in on you....sounds like your headed down the long R path. Good for you!!! Not an easy path by any means but for me, one that was well worth the effort. 

I am glad showed you the remorse you needs to see, it sounds pretty familiar the description. True remorse is hard to fake, the BS doesn't feel you pain when your faking it or still blame shifting. Sounds like she is owning her actions. Those are all good signs.


----------



## Paladin

bigfoot said:


> I hate the term reconciliation because it suggest that both parties were at fault. Your marriage was destroyed, you suffered catastrophic damage as you learned about why it was destroyed and how it was destroyed. Now, the destroyer is sorry and wants to rebuild. It is noble and good that she wants to rebuild, but desired outcome and outcome are two different things.


Um what? So by that logic its safe to assume he was perfect and she was a total fail for the entirety of their relationship? He just put up with a toxic dysfunctional spouse all the way up until this "deal breaker" occurred and now finally has the moral high ground to bail? Do you actually believe that there is ever a relationship where one person is responsible for all the problems, and the other person is perfect and blameless? He was not responsible for her choice to cope in a dysfunctional way by having an affair, that's all on her, but the rest? General consensus is its usually 50/50.


OP I didnt read the whole thread, I am not sure how far past the 1 year mark you currently find yourself, but I'm sure youve seen the 3-5 year spread be mentioned around here for length of recovery. Divorce is not much better BTW, still takes time to first become all the way single, and then to become all the way coupled with someone new, with exactly the same potential for infidelity. 

I saw that you guys tried IC/MC for a few months early in the process but did not find it useful. I think I went through 4 or 5 counselors before I found one I clicked with, once I did find the right one, things improved quickly. I usually say IC is good in the first few months after DDay, but MC should only start after both spouses have a few meaningful IC sessions under their belts. The framework you learn in IC is useful for hashing things out in couples counseling.

If any part of you believes she is truly remorseful and wants to make things right with you because of love, and not because of guilt, you would be doing yourself a disservice by not trying to make it work.

When you find a good IC bring up exactly what your reservations are and get some perspective. CBT/Mindfulness are great tools for working on the little nagging insecurities and doubts that may rattle around in your brain from time to time. Not sure how your mood is day to day, but I found Sertraline(Zoloft) 75-100mg per day really useful in the first 6-8 months of reconciliation. The only drawback to sertraline is the inability to orgasm in moths 7-14 or so. No issues with erections or enjoying sex, but getting over 9.5 to 10(big o) is nearly impossible. It does go away if you stop or if you are on it for long enough. 

Judging by the so called "tough love" levied against you in this thread, I would say you are an ideal candidate for coming out the other side with a rock solid committed relationship with good communication and healthy boundaries. You will just have to decide if you want to do it with this woman, or some other one. The counseling and interpersonal work will be required anyway, regardless of what you end up doing.

My situation was different from yours, but we are somewhere near three years since dday, I cant remember the last time I triggered or felt insecure. If things break now, I would consider it a failed marriage, not a failed reconciliation. Its hard work, especially early on, but rewarding if done right. 

Hope things work out for you, good luck.


----------



## LongWalk

A lot of the pain you feel now has to do with the limbo that you are in. Once you decide one way or the other you will begin to think of other things. If you choose divorce, there is all sorts of new trouble and pain. It, too, will pass. If you choose to reconcile, it's a different flavor of imperfect.

Don't know who flips the pancakes in your house on Sunday mornings, but there are tons of good looking famous people in Hollywood who cheat and divorce all the time. Most of them have to. They have plenty money and great choice, so it's natural.

Of course when their marriages are destroyed, in the back of their heads they know that you are eating pancakes on Sunday morning and they have to drive through some chic lonely neighborhood up a long driveway to pick up their kids and drive to some cool restaurant where the waitresses want to be discovered.

There was time when this famous single dad met waitresses snorted coke and banged them before the clock struck one. But now he is tired out. Needs memorize a whole lot of script. Talk to his agent. Take his kids to tennis.

Life is what we make of it.


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## WhiteRaven

OP, your first priority right now is getting yourself together.


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## sammy3

Life is what you make it, and infidelity changes ones life like no other. It makes one question the sense of self, which sets off a whole new journey that one wasn't prepared to take. 

The journey is often started off in the state of shock, and takes awhile to process . It is different for each of us how quickly we heal, move on or set to the directions we want. 

When our broken selves pick up the pieces , see clarity, it is then when we start to make life meaningful again. 

-sammy


----------



## CantBelieveThis

well not so fast I guess....it just seems every time i try to take a decisive route, in the last case by agreeing to give MC another chance, i just get backlashed with larger bouts of hurt, anger and resent....what is this a sign off?

because of this, the anger got the best of me and I got into it with her last night, said some rude things to her and treated her somewhat harshly.....
so now we are trying to patch things up today via text messages as we are both working but its not really going anywhere...am pushing her for separation and now dont care so much for MC....even thou I know I need to try

I just feel so broken and hurt, sometimes it shocks me (and scares me) because every time the anger seems to come back with a different flavor to it....as if I needed it or something...my mind gets this pure and complete rejection for what she has done, crisp and clear as could be, that its impossible to ignore.....yet at the same time I know its only logical to give it another chance and to try MC....

sorry I can understand if some dont want to contribute to my lousy comments anymore...am all over the place like a dam ping pong ball....


----------



## turnera

Just separate. You can always decide to try again later from separate homes.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

CantBelieveThis said:


> well not so fast I guess....it just seems every time i try to take a decisive route, in the last case by agreeing to give MC another chance, i just get backlashed with larger bouts of hurt, anger and resent....what is this a sign off?
> 
> because of this, the anger got the best of me and I got into it with her last night, said some rude things to her and treated her somewhat harshly.....
> so now we are trying to patch things up today via text messages as we are both working but its not really going anywhere...am pushing her for separation and now dont care so much for MC....*even thou I know I need to try*
> 
> I just feel so broken and hurt, sometimes it shocks me (and scares me) because every time the anger seems to come back with a different flavor to it....as if I needed it or something...my mind gets this pure and complete rejection for what she has done, crisp and clear as could be, that its impossible to ignore.....yet at the same time I know its only logical to give it another chance and to try MC....
> 
> sorry I can understand if some dont want to contribute to my lousy comments anymore...am all over the place like a dam ping pong ball....


I have not read this thread, just your OP and this, and I just wanted to tell you that its OKAY if you cannot do this. You are not wrong in any way, and you do not HAVE to do anything that isnt what you want. Infidelity is an unforgivable for probably most of us and thats okay. Its far worse to stay in an R when you know that you are never going to truly be able to move past that betrayal. Its doesnt matter how much your WS does "right", this was YOUR betrayal, and how you choose to deal with it is up to no one else but you. Give yourself permission to do what is right for yourself.


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## GusPolinski

CantBelieveThis said:


> well not so fast I guess....it just seems every time i try to take a decisive route, in the last case by agreeing to give MC another chance, i just get backlashed with larger bouts of hurt, anger and resent....what is this a sign off?
> 
> because of this, the anger got the best of me and I got into it with her last night, said some rude things to her and treated her somewhat harshly.....
> so now we are trying to patch things up today via text messages as we are both working but its not really going anywhere...am pushing her for separation and now dont care so much for MC....even thou I know I need to try
> 
> I just feel so broken and hurt, sometimes it shocks me (and scares me) because every time the anger seems to come back with a different flavor to it....as if I needed it or something...my mind gets this pure and complete rejection for what she has done, crisp and clear as could be, that its impossible to ignore.....yet at the same time I know its only logical to give it another chance and to try MC....
> 
> sorry I can understand if some dont want to contribute to my lousy comments anymore...am all over the place like a dam ping pong ball....


It's the rollercoaster. Buckle up, pull down the bar, and clamp down, because it's not over yet.


----------



## russell28

CantBelieveThis said:


> well not so fast I guess....it just seems every time i try to take a decisive route, in the last case by agreeing to give MC another chance, i just get backlashed with larger bouts of hurt, anger and resent....what is this a sign off?
> 
> because of this, the anger got the best of me and I got into it with her last night, said some rude things to her and treated her somewhat harshly.....
> so now we are trying to patch things up today via text messages as we are both working but its not really going anywhere...am pushing her for separation and now dont care so much for MC....even thou I know I need to try
> 
> I just feel so broken and hurt, sometimes it shocks me (and scares me) because every time the anger seems to come back with a different flavor to it....as if I needed it or something...my mind gets this pure and complete rejection for what she has done, crisp and clear as could be, that its impossible to ignore.....yet at the same time I know its only logical to give it another chance and to try MC....
> 
> sorry I can understand if some dont want to contribute to my lousy comments anymore...am all over the place like a dam ping pong ball....


I'm right there with you in that one day, I feel the compassion, the forgiveness, the love and caring, and one day I feel the anger, the hurt, the betrayal, the disrespect and it cycles.. sometimes in one day. I can wake up, love my wife, have no bad thoughts and by the end of the day I wish I never even spoke to her again once I saw her and him together. I want to be able to raise the grandchildren together, to be at parties together instead of seeing each other with our other spouses or people we are now with.. We didn't choose any of this, so it's such a painful thing to process. You've envisioned your life a certain way, took time (in my case decades) to build a family and one day it's all destroyed, but the person that you thought was by your side the whole time. Your heart wants to forgive and love, but your mind tells you it's not safe and you're risking being hurt again by someone that's promised to not hurt you once before, and did it anyway. You want to believe what they say, but you can't. The experts all say 2-5 years for all the trust issues to pass.. I figure I owe it to myself and my children to at least give it the two years.

It's easy to want to lash out and say harsh things, it's also okay to apologize if you feel bad about it. Don't listen to the people who'll tell you that you shouldn't, if it feels right at the time go with it. You know if you crossed a line, and you seem to care enough where even though you're hurt, I really don't think you want to hurt back, because then you just feel bad so you're hurting yourself too. I don't call names but can be mean in subtle ways.. I've been through it.. fight it.

We did separate for a month, it was right after dday though.


----------



## pauslon

OP,

I am just getting caught up on the this. I am in very similar shoes as you. Wife is remorseful, but anger and betrayal reside with me. We are attempting R, but sometimes I just want to give up, after days of thinking about the betrayal and keeping everything inside. 

She knows when it's going to be a bad night for us, I become very distant, and can't look her in the eyes. She begs and pleas with me. The only thing that keeps me during the hard times with her are the kids (2yr and 7yr). Neither of us need each other financially, we both have really good jobs. 

From someone experiencing this almost real time as you (my Dday one year anniversary is in a couple months), I can relate to what you are going through. My marriage is on the day to day plan, I no longer forward think years into the future with my wife, holding her hand on the beach and watching our kids grow up. It's all and only present day stuff.

I have no advice for you but just wanted to say you are not alone in your feelings. Godspeed.


----------



## Graywolf2

The problem is your wife is two women in the same body.

She’s the woman you loved and married that you could trust. Then without warning she turned your world upside down and basically told you to eat **** and die. 

Now she’s back and you see the woman you loved crying after you hurt her.


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## pauslon

I do have one piece of advice that has helped me. Change your thinking(& handle) from CantBelieveThis to ItHappenedNowWhat


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## mineforever

Hi Cantbelievethis....just checking in to see how your doing. Sounds like your progressing along. You are bouncing between two phases of grief resentment/anger and acceptance. Sounds like you have tried to bury your anger or skid by this phase like most of us do and not fully deal with our anger and disappointment. What are you doing to let out some of that anger...got a punching bag...do you exercise...like running...how about meditation. You need to find a constructive way to channel that angry energy...then once you calm you need to tell your wife how you feel...yep you need to help her understand your hurt and anger and disappointment in her. If you keep doing this each time you trigger and get angry you will start to heal. I even explained the process to my husband and told him what I needed from him when. Don't know if it will help you but thats how we did.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WhiteRaven

CantBelieveThis said:


> well not so fast I guess....it just seems every time i try to take a decisive route, in the last case by agreeing to give MC another chance, i just get backlashed with larger bouts of hurt, anger and resent....what is this a sign off?
> 
> because of this, the anger got the best of me and I got into it with her last night, said some rude things to her and treated her somewhat harshly.....
> so now we are trying to patch things up today via text messages as we are both working but its not really going anywhere...am pushing her for separation and now dont care so much for MC....even thou I know I need to try
> 
> I just feel so broken and hurt, sometimes it shocks me (and scares me) because every time the anger seems to come back with a different flavor to it....as if I needed it or something...my mind gets this pure and complete rejection for what she has done, crisp and clear as could be, that its impossible to ignore.....yet at the same time I know its only logical to give it another chance and to try MC....
> 
> sorry I can understand if some dont want to contribute to my lousy comments anymore...am all over the place like a dam ping pong ball....


One of the reasons for my decision to D was I couldn't trust myself that I won't do something really stupid. When anger takes hold of you, reason vanishes. I remember coming back from office, sitting under the shower without taking my clothes off and repeatedly flicking the safety of my Kimber on and off. It went on for hours at a time. It was pure madness. It scares me to think what I was capable of back then.


----------



## sammy3

CantBelieveThis said:


> well not so fast I guess....it just seems every time i try to take a decisive route, in the last case by agreeing to give MC another chance, i just get backlashed with larger bouts of hurt, anger and resent....what is this a sign off?
> 
> because of this, the anger got the best of me and I got into it with her last night, said some rude things to her and treated her somewhat harshly.....
> so now we are trying to patch things up today via text messages as we are both working but its not really going anywhere...am pushing her for separation and now dont care so much for MC....even thou I know I need to try
> 
> I just feel so broken and hurt, sometimes it shocks me (and scares me) because every time the anger seems to come back with a different flavor to it....as if I needed it or something...my mind gets this pure and complete rejection for what she has done, crisp and clear as could be, that its impossible to ignore.....yet at the same time I know its only logical to give it another chance and to try MC....
> 
> sorry I can understand if some dont want to contribute to my lousy comments anymore...am all over the place like a dam ping pong ball....



No needs for sorries... This is the realities of infidelity. It is a hard road of healing. My anger lasted 22 months before I could even do MC. ((dont recommend that path))

Everyday will be different as you are seeing... This is why is called a roller coaster of a ride. It does slow, but for some of us, longer than others, so dont be to hard on yourself. 

No one can tell you what to do, only you. It's a real tough call. It's just so f***ked up they put us here... 

-sammy


----------



## 2xloser

Hey CBT, 
Back checking on you... sounds like you are in the throes of the self-doubting uncertain roller coaster that is inevitably going to be present in your life for a while at least. Stay strong, and do nothing out of impulse or harshness. 

Give yourself the time AND space to think.

If MC is not in your heart, don't fake it for appearances sake. You will only resent the whole thing that much more.

Maybe give a long, hard thought to a short-term, trial separation, with the full intent of putting a stake in the ground to making a decision either way, say 90-120 days from move-out? It is sounding to me like you kind of need to get away and give yourself the opportunity to miss her a bit -- or not -- with a clear, self-only mindset. Just a thought.

Good luck to you, bro. I hope you find what you need, whatever the resulting action.


----------



## badmemory

CantBelieveThis said:


> I know its only logical to give it another chance and to try MC....


I don't think that logic plays a role in this. Not where human emotions are involved. You have to do what you "feel" is right.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

someone else said this either on this thread of mine or some other one that I read, but I have to repeat it because it feels so true...
"_*R is all about eating the whole sh1t sandwich whole, with as many bites as possible and w/o any water to gulp it down!!!!*_"

that is all.....


----------



## GusPolinski

How're things going, CBT?


----------



## Cabsy

Hang in there, man, R or no. You're not alone...


----------



## CantBelieveThis

GusPolinski said:


> How're things going, CBT?


nothing new....doing a lot of talking every day, thou I have brought up divorce a lot since the past couple weeks and she is freaking out.....she things i am falling out of love for her and that divorce is what i want.....


----------



## workindad

CantBelieveThis said:


> nothing new....doing a lot of talking every day, thou I have brought up divorce a lot since the past couple weeks and she is freaking out.....she things i am falling out of love for her and that divorce is what i want.....




Is she correct?


----------



## GusPolinski

GusPolinski said:


> How're things going, CBT?





CantBelieveThis said:


> nothing new....doing a lot of talking every day, thou I have brought up divorce a lot since the past couple weeks and she is freaking out.....she things i am falling out of love for her and that divorce is what i want.....


OK... So, here are some questions...

Where is your head at w/ all this? 

Do you think that you're falling out of love w/ her? 

What, if anything, would you have to see from her in order for you to take divorce off the table?

Here's my read on you... You love your wife, you love your family, and you want to make it work, *BUT* you're not certain that, in the long run, you'll be able to get past the affair and all of the ways in which it has wounded you. That and/or she may cheat again. Therefore, you're afraid to commit too heavily to reconciliation because you're afraid that 1, 5, 10, or even 20 years down the road, everything will fall apart, and all of the hard work will have been for naught. Of course, this could probably be said of just about any BS.

Again, I'm not trying to push you in either direction; I'm just trying to dig a little deeper into your current state of mind.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

GusPolinski said:


> OK... So, here are some questions...
> 
> Where is your head at w/ all this?
> 
> Do you think that you're falling out of love w/ her?
> 
> What, if anything, would you have to see from her in order for you to take divorce off the table?
> 
> Here's my read on you... You love your wife, you love your family, and you want to make it work, *BUT* you're not certain that, in the long run, you'll be able to get past the affair and all of the ways in which it has wounded you. That and/or she may cheat again. Therefore, you're afraid to commit too heavily to reconciliation because you're afraid that 1, 5, 10, or even 20 years down the road, everything will fall apart, and all of the hard work will have been for naught. Of course, this could probably be said of just about any BS.
> 
> Again, I'm not trying to push you in either direction; I'm just trying to dig a little deeper into your current state of mind.


Gus, i dont love her any less or more...thou I do feel some indifference for her from time to time...hard to put into words...and yes your description is very accurate, pretty dam close to how i feel.....the betrayal is the hard part getting over


----------



## bigfoot

Cantbelieve,

i have been re-reading your posts and I completely get your state of mind. I may have said this already, but it bears repeating. marriage is not a reward for good behavior any more than divorce is a punishment. 

Sometimes someone offends you so much that you cannot maintain your relationship. Perhaps, it is time for you to leave. I don't mean leave the cheating *&#%^. I mean, it is time to just recognize that the pain of staying is too much. Once you leave you can see if you want to return or work it out or not. You have put up the good fight. It is not about what she has done to fix things because it is the fact of the affair and its circumstances that can never be undone. 

Leaving is not weak. It is not punishment. It is, sometimes, the right thing to do. Perhaps you can work things out later on, but right now, you need to see the other side of the coin. Perhaps from there you can make a final decision. Maybe leaving will show you why you need to work it out OR maybe leaving will show you why you need to divorce. It is time to try a different course of treatment for your injury since the last year of treatment has not been effective.


----------



## GusPolinski

GusPolinski said:


> What, if anything, would you have to see from her in order for you to take divorce off the table?


CBT, take some time (a couple of days at least) and reeeaaaaaally think about ^this. Maybe get away for a couple of days to get some time for yourself. Decompress, unwind, and relax. But think about this.

Take a couple of buddies if you want. Just do yourself a favor and don't spend too much time w/ anyone that's too far to the right or left w/ regard to reconciliation vs. divorce. The last thing that you need right now is one buddy telling you to "Dump the wh*re!" and another telling you "C'mon man, get over it, we all make mistakes." You're already doing that to yourself.


----------



## Affaircare

CBT, 

Here's what I think the issues is in a nutshell:

She CHEATED

...and yet somehow she has it in her head or in the way she acts that if she's sorry and does the right things, she is entitled to reconciliation. 

I know it's sounds a little like splitting hairs or semantics, but I think if she truly and deeply understood that her actions entitle her to *losing everything*(her marriage, half her time with her children, her home, her lifestyle...)and that's what she *deserves*(present tense), it might make things oddly easier on you. But since she acts like "if I'm sorry he has to forgive me and reconcile" you're stuck because part of you also believes something along that line. 

Let me make the easier for you. You are the left side of the body and she is the right side of the body. She CUT OFF the left side of the body, and threw it away. She thought she'd lose the pain and hardship if she cut off the left side, but what she didn't understand is that the body does not live if you cut off the left side. 

Now she realizes "Oops I will die without the left side, which I cut off" and she's acting like "if I ask a surgeon to reattach it, that left side will be just fine and the body will be just like it was." NOPE! The left side is damaged, and the body will never be the same again! Now, it's medically possible to reattach an amputation, but it would be a whole different body and life would be forever different. 

For you...you are the left side. I personally think you both need to accept that due to her actions, that old body DIED and will never be back. NEVER. *EVER*. Then if you have the will to try to reattach in a new way...well that's up to you and somewhat your will to want it! I don't hear that desire in your voice (in your writing here).


----------



## Ripper

If it wasn't for the insane divorce laws in Florida, this man would already be free. Hope you can figure something out OP.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Before do anything get help to figure out why you have this wages of angry and pain, I mean you already know why as a whole thing but maybe need to understand each part one by one.

You keep saying that the A is not a matter any more, that the betrayal is, maybe is everything and you are so messed up to realise. You have taken hard stuff (kissing him, smelling him) and your brain is some how on automatic pilot to protect you taking you out of the marriage.

Does she deserves a second chance, of course not, does you deserve a second chance, only if you can bare it. Just remember things will never be the same. this will be a journey for three, H, W, and OM (everyday present in your minds), so be prepared.

Take some time apart from her, not talking, not seeing, not texting, but keeping in touch with your children (maybe even under the same roof, make a time table). this way you can figure out how you feel about her as a person and not as a family member.

Once you find out what you really want learn to clean you mind, to keep cool, to relay on her ... at last what ever happens you are going to be in contact for your kids.

Sorry for my english, it is not my first lenguage.

PS what ever you do, do it fast, kids are really sensitive to all this stuff.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Ask her if she is trying the whole R for you, for the family, for not been divorced, and if she is willing to take the polygraph about it, just to see her reaction, or even do it.

This way maybe you can put a solid rock reference to keep going


----------



## lifeistooshort

Affaircare said:


> CBT,
> 
> Here's what I think the issues is in a nutshell:
> 
> She CHEATED
> 
> ...and yet somehow she has it in her head or in the way she acts that if she's sorry and does the right things, she is entitled to reconciliation.
> 
> I know it's sounds a little like splitting hairs or semantics, but I think if she truly and deeply understood that her actions entitle her to *losing everything*(her marriage, half her time with her children, her home, her lifestyle...)and that's what she *deserves*(present tense), it might make things oddly easier on you. But since she acts like "if I'm sorry he has to forgive me and reconcile" you're stuck because part of you also believes something along that line.
> 
> Let me make the easier for you. You are the left side of the body and she is the right side of the body. She CUT OFF the left side of the body, and threw it away. She thought she'd lose the pain and hardship if she cut off the left side, but what she didn't understand is that the body does not live if you cut off the left side.
> 
> Now she realizes "Oops I will die without the left side, which I cut off" and she's acting like "if I ask a surgeon to reattach it, that left side will be just fine and the body will be just like it was." NOPE! The left side is damaged, and the body will never be the same again! Now, it's medically possible to reattach an amputation, but it would be a whole different body and life would be forever different.
> 
> For you...you are the left side. I personally think you both need to accept that due to her actions, that old body DIED and will never be back. NEVER. *EVER*. Then if you have the will to try to reattach in a new way...well that's up to you and somewhat your will to want it! I don't hear that desire in your voice (in your writing here).


This is a great point. Her going to pieces over the mention of divorce continues to make things about her; a truly unselfish person will do everything they can and at the end of the day step back and tell you if you need to go they understand, as much as it will suck for them. She's still in selfish mode.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Affaircare

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree: 

To this day, it's been years now and Dear Hubby and I are very reconciled but if he told me he needed to separate or be apart or even divorce, I would be devastated sad but of course do it because it's what he needs!


----------



## clipclop2

Would you really? No crying? Pleading? I really don't believe that AC.


----------



## kirdalt

I'm sorry can't believe this is a tough one. I'm in the same boat really a year out and although I still love him its just different. I'm in the process in trying to understand why I feel this detachment from him. He is doing everything I ask him to its just not working. My problem too is the betrayal, I guess I could stay like this but wonder what it would be like to not have all the past baggage and feel so reserved now, my fear is it wouldn't matter if I stayed or left its just who I am now. I wish you luck this has been the worst thing I've been through sure you feel the same


----------



## LongWalk

Read Road Scholar's thread

or SouthSideIrish


----------



## Affaircare

clipclop2 said:


> Would you really? No crying? Pleading? I really don't believe that AC.


Yeah seriously and sincerely. I would definitely cry! I would be extremely sad if that's what he decided, but my Dear Hubby is a man who thinks things THROUGH, and when he says "I have decided this is what I need" it's because he has thought through all the alternatives and all the ramifications and believes this is the best course of action...for him. 

Shoot for me it would be devastating and lonely and I'd feel like ****, but he needs it. Why would I deny him what he needs? Okay the other thing that may be unique to our situation is that I have some faith in my Dear Hubby. He is a very loyal, committed man. If he said he needed me to move out, I'd cry and feel horrible, but I'd also have some faith in him that he's doing the best he knows to do. 

We spend all day together, all night together, talk about everything, share everything... seriously, I'm not even exaggerating. If he said it, I'd do it and miss him like a crazy person, and keep living like he was coming back any moment to prove I'm serious.

P.S. Sorry about the threadjack! Returning to the original topic now.


----------



## clipclop2

You don't have the power to deny him anything if that's what he wants. But unless you didn't show emotion you would be putting an emotional speed bump in his way. He might put his foot down anyway but he would probably have an emotional response and ease up on the gas just a bit.

I really doubt you on this one. Your claim is far too ideal a response.


----------



## Suspecting2014

I am sorry but I believe she is trying to protect the marriage upon you: Maybe before A she wasn’t in love with you any more (that would explain a lot) and after OM dumps her (not when she knew he was going to jail, maybe she was willing to wait him) she tried to come back to her marriage but not to you. I believe that’s why she is freaking out about the divorce upon your need to heal filling it (that would explain how fast she moved out the fog).

I just read Affaircares tread Why I Believe a Disloyal Spouse Really Does NEED to tell some details, and I think is may be your case, you need to understand her betrayal to move on, but as I said maybe you can’t bc you are trying from the wrong assumptions... 

I think you should define a deadline date (maybe 6 months), after that move on in the way you choose but don’t look back. 

In that period you could:

Try to do anything you need to understand the betray:

•	Fill the divorce, as you may feel better about your self, and found out if she wants you for real.
•	Try 30 days question proposed for Affaircare in her tread Why I Believe a Disloyal Spouse Really Does NEED to tell some details. 
•	RA, I don’t think you want to or can (I couldn’t) but maybe it may help. Or just tell her to see if she really would do/bare anything to be with you.
•	Try to date someone else, it may clarify how you feel about your wife.

Take care of you and your family:

•	Make excessive, try a hobby, travel, etc. get IC
•	Demand your wife to care about herself, (anxiety pills, excesise, halty food, IC)she needs to be well bc is your kids mom.
•	Talk to your kids about things, they must be feeling confused and don’t know why

Be aware of:

•	By filling divorce you are not breaking your family, she did! She was willing to do it just to be with OM.
•	You don’t own her nothing; she took everything away from you.
•	She is your mother´s kids, so try to not be mean.

Make sure she knows: 

•	This is not a revenge that you don’t want to hurt her but to heal. 
•	There are not garantees of been back
•	Is going to be tough
•	And that things will never be the same


----------



## CantBelieveThis

just checking in, i have been swamped at work and only been reading on here every so often....
I seem to have gotten better over the past couple weeks, the pain of her betrayal is not as intense anymore but it could come back for all I know....
I am not sure why does it feel less now but I am worried I keep having these feelings of indifference for her from time to time and they have become more frequent...maybe thats why the betrayal doesnt sting as much? is this part of some self negotiating pact within myself? that in order to relieve the pain of her affair I have to let go of her some?

on the other hand, she is getting more depressed lately too, she is putting on weight and its hitting her hard, she cut her hair short and now she thinks she isnt as good looking anymore....she is really struggling and of course I dont like to watch her suffer so it does put burden upon me....as if I needed any more. 

anyways, thats how things are going so far, I really feel everyones feedback here has been tremendous help and I could never thank you all enough for all you are doing for me...I really do mean that


----------



## Ripper

CantBelieveThis said:


> on the other hand, she is getting more depressed lately too, she is putting on weight and its hitting her hard, she cut her hair short and now she thinks she isnt as good looking anymore....she is really struggling


Fvck NO! She doesn't get to drop a JDAM on your life and then pork up and get depressed.

Pack her bags and send her to some relatives until she straightens her sh*t out. You have enough on your plate.


----------



## Paladin

Ripper said:


> Fvck NO! She doesn't get to drop a JDAM on your life and then pork up and get depressed.
> 
> Pack her bags and send her to some relatives until she straightens her sh*t out. You have enough on your plate.


[sarcasm]
Solid relationship building advice right there
[/sarcasm]

Did it make you feel better to insult a stranger? If she broke her leg would your advice be the same? Or does it only apply to mental health, which cant possibly be a real thing, huh?

CBT, 

is she in active IC? If she is depressed she needs to get on some anti depressants, and you should consider doing so as well. I found Sertraline(Zoloft) to be very helpful in the first 8 months or so, 75-100mg per day was a good dose for me, helps with nagging insecurities and letting go of minor stuff. 

Has she ever had her hair short before? Weight gain, atypical changes to appearance, and other stuff of that nature can be symptoms of major depression and/or bi-polar disorder.

We dont get to choose how our brain chemistry works under extreme stress. No one "chooses" to be depressed. It may become a complication for you if left untreated.


----------



## BobSimmons

While I would be as harsh as Ripper, I certainly can see a bit of manipulation at play. Remember she knows CBT better than anyone,and which buttons to push with regards to keeping him in check when he displays any signs of strength or independence. 
It scares her, so she'll appeal to his inner knight in shining armour, why? For so long during/after the affair CBT was always chasing, she lost respect. OM dumped her she wanted her life back..not that easy. Little by little CBT starts to get his n*ts back, even though she's doing all the right things, he isn't jumping through the first hoop she tosses.
Tell me, this woman cuts off her hair, probably the most outward symbol of her femininity, then proceeds to declare herself unattractive. What is her aim

My question to CBT, did you her why she did it..and what was your response when she said she looked unattractive. Are you still trying to save her? 

I see manipulation. She plays the lost cause. CBT saves her and gets to be the man and get his redemption. While she's in this state he wont do anything.


----------



## Ripper

Paladin said:


> [sarcasm]
> Solid relationship building advice right there
> [/sarcasm]


More useful than this comment.



Paladin said:


> Did it make you feel better to insult a stranger?


Didn't see one.



Paladin said:


> If she broke her leg would your advice be the same?


If your stupid selfish actions resulted in you breaking your leg, little to no sympathy here.



Paladin said:


> Or does it only apply to mental health, which cant possibly be a real thing, huh?


 Not wanting to face the consequences for your actions isn't a mental health issue. Its a maturity issue.

I've recognized a pattern to your posts. I'm not going to play. Find someone else to trick into a permaban.


----------



## Paladin

Ripper said:


> I've recognized a pattern to your posts. I'm not going to play. Find someone else to trick into a permaban.


For people that care so much about blame shifting, it amazes me that they are so blind when they do it themselves. I wish I had the power to control others, sadly I do not, the only person I have dominion over is me, so please do not blame me for the actions you and your friends take when you dont like what I post.


----------



## lordmayhem

Take it to PMs already. I can't follow the thread because of all the threadjacking.


----------



## GusPolinski

Ripper said:


> Fvck NO! *She doesn't get to drop a JDAM on your life and then pork up and get depressed.*
> 
> Pack her bags and send her to some relatives until she straightens her sh*t out. You have enough on your plate.


LOL. Sorry, it probably isn't incredibly mature of me, but I can't help but laugh hysterically at this.

And, while this probably isn't the best advice, I can definitely understand the sentiment behind it.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

lordmayhem said:


> Take it to PMs already. I can't follow the thread because of all the threadjacking.


You know its bad when logical fallacies are used in comparison with infidelity and marriage problems.


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> I seem to have gotten better over the past couple weeks, the pain of her betrayal is not as intense anymore but it could come back for all I know....


Glad you are feeling better



CantBelieveThis said:


> I am not sure why does it feel less now but I am worried I keep having these feelings of indifference for her from time to time and they have become more frequent...maybe thats why the betrayal doesnt sting as much? is this part of some self negotiating pact within myself? that in order to relieve the pain of her affair I have to let go of her some?


I read in other threads that as good the marriage was before cheating (from BS side) the harder R is.

When starts feeling better it also starts feeling detached… I believe is just as you wrote, a way you can live with her and yourself.



CantBelieveThis said:


> on the other hand, she is getting more depressed lately too, she is putting on weight and its hitting her hard, she cut her hair short and now she thinks she isnt as good looking anymore....she is really struggling and of course I dont like to watch her suffer so it does put burden upon me....as if I needed any more.


What do you expect from her? She will try everything to keep on R, crying, manipulating, etc.
I think you should ask yourself:
What do you want to do? and Will you ever be ok with her despite all that has happened?

I think you believe your wife is in R for real, so maybe just trust her.

Maybe you shout try separation and try R like a new relation with her form zero...this way you may feel a little better with yourself about R with her.

It also would allow you to figure out how you really feel about her


----------



## CantBelieveThis

to be honest I dont really come to her help when she gets all depressed and what not...I havent changed one bit because of this and if anything I have told her its a sign that we need a long separation....I did tell her it pisses me off that she was looking her best when she was cheating and that now i have to deal with her not looking her best because of her own doing....which makes her mad so she gets determined again to do her best.....and it goes around in a cycle.....


----------



## LongWalk

She needs to get her dignity back. Can you encourage her?

Women are, as we know, very sensitive about weight.


----------



## Divinely Favored

CantBelieveThis said:


> to be honest I dont really come to her help when she gets all depressed and what not...I havent changed one bit because of this and if anything I have told her its a sign that we need a long separation....I did tell her it pisses me off that she was looking her best when she was cheating and that now i have to deal with her not looking her best because of her own doing....which makes her mad so she gets determined again to do her best.....and it goes around in a cycle.....


I was thinking the exact same thing about the weight. Many women just let themselves go after marriage and quit trying to look good for their husbands.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

LongWalk said:


> She needs to get her dignity back. Can you encourage her?
> 
> Women are, as we know, very sensitive about weight.


In a way he did encourage her. Not the nicest way, but I can empathize with the OP as I went through a similar thing.

She lost weight and worked out to look good for the OM, but now that the affair is over it's not worth her effort anymore.

He shouldn't have to try to motivate her on keeping her apparence up now. She should want to do it on her own. If for no other reason, then to let the OP know he is at least worth the same effort she had put in for the OM.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> In a way he did encourage her. Not the nicest way, but I can empathize with the OP as I went through a similar thing.
> 
> She lost weight and worked out to look good for the OM, but now that the affair is over it's not worth her effort anymore.
> 
> He shouldn't have to try to motivate her on keeping her apparence up now. She should want to do it on her own. If for no other reason, then to let the OP know he is at least worth the same effort she had put in for the OM.


:iagree:

It seems like she is now playing victim here.


----------



## Paladin

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> He shouldn't have to try to motivate her on keeping her apparence up now. She should want to do it on her own. If for no other reason, then to let the OP know he is at least worth the same effort she had put in for the OM.


No disagreement here, however, this becomes infinitely harder to do if a person is depressed and not on medication. Does not matter if her own "stupidity," as someone else put it, caused the problem, if progress is the goal, the mental health issue has to be dealt with. Just as if her own "stupidity" caused her to break her leg, as someone else in this thread said, the OP can say "well you had two good legs when you cheated, why dont you have two good legs for me?" or he can drive her to the hospital and have a cast put on. 

If she is indeed "playing the victim," and is not in fact depressed, the advice would be different from me, and since only the OP and his spouse can actually determine that, I'll err on the side of caution and progress.


----------



## turnera

Divinely Favored said:


> I was thinking the exact same thing about the weight. Many women just let themselves go after marriage and quit trying to look good for their husbands.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah. Just ask all the women married to men with beer bellies bigger than three of the woman put together.


----------



## clipclop2

Women are a lot more accepting of men adding weight with age. We don't get all pissy that they are letting themselves go. But they are still overweight and out of breath. 

I bet each of is know guys like this who have slim, fit wives.


----------



## Divinely Favored

turnera said:


> Yeah. Just ask all the women married to men with beer bellies bigger than three of the woman put together.


I would not have thought about the mans looks as much, being men tend to be visual and women emotional. It would be the same for a man who quits romancing or talking to his wife.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## clipclop2

yea, like they don't do that...

and it is complete hogwash that women aren't visual.. it's more accurate to say that women are more balanced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## turnera

Divinely Favored said:


> I would not have thought about the mans looks as much, being men tend to be visual and women emotional. It would be the same for a man who quits romancing or talking to his wife.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Right. Which is why women are just as likely to walk away from men, when they give up their looks AND stop romancing and talking to their wives. What's left?


----------



## clipclop2

Security used to take care of that one but a job skill can replace that easily enough.


----------



## Suspecting2014

CBT
I would like to ask you a question
Did you really wasn't paying attention to your wife before the A at the level she pointed out?

In other hand, yes she gave you everything when you got to the US, but also you have gave her you entire life!! So you don't owe her anything, anything at all!

The thing is that this is not your fault, is completely hers, you can’t control how you feel but you can control what you do. So DON’T KEEP IN MARRIAGE BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU OWE HER. YOU DON’T!!!!

The only ones you owe everything is your Kids, and by everything I mean to teach them to not be humiliated by their couples in future, to be strong, to be happy, etc. 

When my folks divorced I and my brothers were like "What’s took you so long???" The hard time you are having in home is harassing you kids.

As everybody has told you, she is trying to manipulate you, it is expected because she is trying everything to keep the marriage, but she is also trying to go without a consequence, that’s why you can’t move on.

From other angle, you can divorce and stay as married, it would give you sense of control of your life and situation. You will feel the A have consequences at so many levels, her family, her actions and the most important TO YOUR SELF!! This way you can stop detaching from her and give your family a new try.

I believe you already read it but take a look at post 16 at this tread, Chris989 story may works for you, take special attention to his last posts about how he feels, it may help

Good luck

PS about weight, of course she needs to win you back, she need to try as she did with OM at least, but the most important thing is your kids so demand her to be healthy for them, brain as body as well.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

she just sends me this out of the blue...and am like WTF? what was I before? chopped liver? i guess marriage vows werent all that important till now.....


----------



## turnera

She's just trying to prove to you that she gets it, that she needs to show you she's not gonna make the same mistake.


----------



## LongWalk

A difficult message to write. She did not mention her transgression explicitly but did refer to you as her "partner in crime". But she is the only one who fornicated. You didn't pull her underwear down and tell her to hop on OM.

Nonetheless, it's a pretty humble letter.

Do you still feel that you are losing attraction towards her?


----------



## turnera

I don't think she equated partner in crime with her affair - rather just a term to mean married couples.


----------



## GusPolinski

CantBelieveThis said:


> she just sends me this out of the blue...and am like WTF? what was I before? chopped liver? *i guess marriage vows werent all that important till now.....*


I can definitely understand why you'd think that way... but I honestly think that you're overthinking things.

As long as _what she's saying_ is in sync with *what she's doing*, take her words at face value.


----------



## Ripper

CantBelieveThis said:


> i guess marriage vows werent all that important till now.....


Absolutely understandable. Reaffirming broken vows via text message just seems a little cheap. She said something similar many years ago in front of a lot of people and it amounted to nothing. While not her intention, I can see how this could actually p*ss you off.

Actions are what matters. That includes looking her best for you, being as pleasant to be around as possible, taking your anger when it boils over, and generally trying to pull you out of the emotional hole she pushed you into.


----------



## Forest

After seeing your post in the Mind Movies thread, I again looked over your "limbo" thread and this one. We are on a bit of a similar trajectory, it seems. Sliding into dullsville. 

You're younger, still raising kids and in the intense part of marriage, which makes it even harder. Your comment about her looking her best during the affair, and now showing less concern really hit me. Yeah, affairs are exciting and something to really keep in top form for, eh?

Now, she's depressed so she doesn't have the energy and enthusiasm to wow you? That's depressing, alright.

I have a feeling that she's remorseful and upset partially because she realizes what she almost lost with this stunt--what she almost did to herself. Is that accurate?

I actually do hope you two can get things righted. Such a loss.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

LongWalk said:


> Do you still feel that you are losing attraction towards her?


I dont know to be honest, its difficult to pinpoint any feeling with any degree of accuracy anymore....but I do feel more indifferent towards her since about a month ago, just like I dont care about her as much or what she says or what she does, these feelings come and go...thing is am not even trying this is all happening subconsciously I guess....




Forest said:


> I have a feeling that she's remorseful and upset partially because she realizes what she almost lost with this stunt--what she almost did to herself. Is that accurate?


thanks Forest...yea thats about right, unfortunately thou I think their actions, no matter how good they are, will only help so much in my opinion...nothing can take away the devastating transgression and betrayal and I think this is whats getting to me......i gather indifference is perhaps our minds attempt to dull the pain? just my theory....

she did start dieting again a couple days ago, and said will let her hair grow again and what not, will see how that goes....


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Words spoken will never out weigh the actions taken.

She spoke wedding vows to you once also.

Then some where down the road took the actions of having an affair.

The time for words has long since passed you by. If she want's to try to redeem herself, win you back, she needs to start taking actions.

Her making promises and saying vows now may seem to be as fleeting as the breath it took to utter them.

"Inspirations never go in for long engagements; they demand immediate marriage to action." ~Brendan Francis


----------



## Truthseeker1

CantBelieveThis said:


> I dont know to be honest, its difficult to pinpoint any feeling with any degree of accuracy anymore....but I do feel more indifferent towards her since about a month ago, just like I dont care about her as much or what she says or what she does, these feelings come and go...thing is am not even trying this is all happening subconsciously I guess....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks Forest...yea thats about right, *unfortunately thou I think their actions, no matter how good they are, will only help so much in my opinion...nothing can take away the devastating transgression and betrayal and I think this is whats getting to me..*....i gather indifference is perhaps our minds attempt to dull the pain? just my theory....
> 
> she did start dieting again a couple days ago, and said will let her hair grow again and what not, will see how that goes....


:iagree::iagree: Nothing cvan or ever will. Good luck in your journey wherever it leads. What I wish you for you is it ends with you being at peace with yourself and your life - whatever it is you decide.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

....and her 40th bday is coming up in few weeks....no idea how to handle that.....


----------



## Truthseeker1

CantBelieveThis said:


> ....and her 40th bday is coming up in few weeks....no idea how to handle that.....


That is up to you but given the circumstances a card and a Happy Birthday is more than enough. I wouldn't go out of my way to make a huge fuss over it.


----------



## Jasel

CantBelieveThis said:


>


Eh sounds kind of generic. I'm sure it came from the heart but I could have pulled a text like that out of my ass.

And ya I agree with the wedding vows comment. I guess those didn't count for anything.


----------



## Truthseeker1

Jasel said:


> Eh sounds kind of generic. I'm sure it came from the heart but I could have pulled a text like that out of my ass.
> 
> And ya I agree with the wedding vows comment. I guess those didn't count for anything.


Agreed it reads more like one of those annoying emails someone forwards to you or a meme someone posts on their facebook wall.


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> ....and her 40th bday is coming up in few weeks....no idea how to handle that.....


Don't do anything you don't feel or think just feeling for a while.

Don't be mean either. Just don't give her false hopes.

Remember she is supposed to fix what she broke, not you...


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> I dont know to be honest, its difficult to pinpoint any feeling with any degree of accuracy anymore....*but I do feel more indifferent towards her since about a month ago, just like I dont care about her as much or what she says or what she does*, these feelings come and go...thing is am not even trying this is all happening subconsciously I guess....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks Forest...yea thats about right, unfortunately thou I think their actions, no matter how good they are, will only help so much in my opinion...nothing can take away *the devastating transgression and betrayal and I think this is whats getting to me......i gather indifference is perhaps our minds attempt to dull the pain?* just my theory....
> 
> she did start dieting again a couple days ago, and said will let her hair grow again and what not, will see how that goes....


I think you are so right! The opposite of love is not hate, is indifference...


----------



## Truthseeker1

Suspecting2014 said:


> I think you are so right! *The opposite of love is not hate, is indifference.*..


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> she just sends me this out of the blue...and am like WTF? what was I before? chopped liver? i guess marriage vows werent all that important till now.....


At that time I think it seemed so Plan B cheater's speech...maybe now, after her effort, it have a bit more value but what happened to the ones before them, the marriage ones?

"You cant choose what to feel but you can choose what to do". The betrayed was planned and executed on conscience, so I think this texted vows mean nothing. even after all her effort.

For new vows, new start, otherwise they are as false as the marriages vows.


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> ....and her 40th bday is coming up in few weeks....no idea how to handle that.....


Dont go with her family if you dont feel like, you have the right to skip it if you want.

YOU DON'T OWE HER NOTHING!

Just don't do it for the kids, the toxic environment they already are is enough, they don't need to see you angry ar sad on her mother's birthday.


----------



## Divinely Favored

CantBelieveThis said:


> she just sends me this out of the blue...and am like WTF? what was I before? chopped liver? i guess marriage vows werent all that important till now.....


If she WOULD NOT keep them before, why does she think you could believe she would now?!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Rugs

Suspecting2014 said:


> Dont go with her family if you dont feel like, you have the right to skip it if you want.
> 
> YOU DON'T OWE HER NOTHING!
> 
> Just don't do it for the kids, the toxic environment they already are is enough, they don't need to see you angry ar sad on her mother's birthday.



I admit I skipped a few pages but is this no longer a reconciliation? 

It seems OP has checked out. Correct?

Does OP's wife know he has checked out and she's trying to still save the marriage? 

It reads very sad to me. I personally feel the WW's remorse but I guess everyone should move on if it's a false R on OP's part. 

Good luck to your family OP.


----------



## LongWalk

I think her text is full of sentimental promises. But there is thought behind implied. 



> From this moment


What moment? The moment of her current declaration? Dday? Some moment of forgiveness that she perceived?



> Partners in crime


This is the sort of thing that people who actually commit crimes don't say. But from the OP's perspective his wife had another partner in crime.



> Whenever our time or way becomes more difficult


The difficulty is now enormous.



> I promise to work on our love, not giving up on it so easily


She might still give up?


----------



## turnera

What exactly have you guys been discussing in terms of R?


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Rugs said:


> I admit I skipped a few pages but is this no longer a reconciliation?
> 
> It seems OP has checked out. Correct?


no am still hanging on to R....



LongWalk said:


> She might still give up?


good call outs longwalk....i am going to ask her about this, i totally missed it....



turnera said:


> What exactly have you guys been discussing in terms of R?


not sure what you meant there...


I have gone back and re-read this own thread and its hard not to comment on everyones warming support and different (helpful) points of view....one that sticks out is how many say she still blame-shifting and I know this also bothers me still....

She does fully admit her fault in taking on an affair but she always, I mean almost always, states that she would have never done it if she wasnt in such a disappointed state of mind and literally given up on the marriage, convinced that I didnt care for her. 
I keep telling her thats BS and she keeps laying blame on me but she insists that if cheating was always in her she would have done it a long time ago and had plenty of opportunities to do it and never even crossed her mind, not something she would ever do...

could use you guys help on this one, i mean this is a fundamental thing right? I dont feel i should just let this go, i will not take any blame for the affair but she keeps saying in an indirect way it was my fault?


----------



## Clay2013

CantBelieveThis said:


> I keep telling her thats BS and she keeps laying blame on me but she insists that if cheating was always in her she would have done it a long time ago and had plenty of opportunities to do it and never even crossed her mind, not something she would ever do...
> my fault?


Its BS. That is really all it is. She does not want to take responsibility for her own actions. She could have left you if things were so bad. She could have done a thousand things instead of cheating. She made a choice to be with someone else. Just as you are making a choice to try to stay with her. 

My xW blamed me. Her family blamed me. It was all my fault is all I ever heard from them. 

I personally would just file and get her out of your life. If she doesn't get it now she will never get it. The next time you wont even get its your fault. You will just see her leaving with the OM.

Sorry man. It sucks

Clay


----------



## Truthseeker1

CantBelieveThis said:


> no am still hanging on to R....
> 
> 
> 
> good call outs longwalk....i am going to ask her about this, i totally missed it....
> 
> 
> 
> not sure what you meant there...
> 
> 
> I have gone back and re-read this own thread and its hard not to comment on everyones warming support and different (helpful) points of view....one that sticks out is how many say she still blame-shifting and I know this also bothers me still....
> 
> *She does fully admit her fault in taking on an affair but she always, I mean almost always, states that she would have never done it if she wasnt in such a disappointed state of mind and literally given up on the marriage, convinced that I didnt care for her.
> I keep telling her thats BS and she keeps laying blame on me but she insists that if cheating was always in her she would have done it a long time ago and had plenty of opportunities to do it and never even crossed her mind, not something she would ever do...*
> 
> could use you guys help on this one, i mean this is a fundamental thing right? I dont feel i should just let this go, i will not take any blame for the affair but she keeps saying in an indirect way it was my fault?


That is a load of BS. Being "disappointed" or "vulnerable" does not give you license to cheat and destroy another human being. The affair was about her selfishness not the state of your marriage. Well do you get your affair when she dissappoints you AGAIN?


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> no am still hanging on to R....
> 
> 
> 
> good call outs longwalk....i am going to ask her about this, i totally missed it....
> 
> 
> 
> not sure what you meant there...
> 
> 
> I have gone back and re-read this own thread and its hard not to comment on everyones warming support and different (helpful) points of view....one that sticks out is how many say she still blame-shifting and I know this also bothers me still....
> 
> She does fully admit her fault in taking on an affair but she always, I mean almost always, states that she would have never done it if she wasnt in such a disappointed state of mind and literally given up on the marriage, convinced that I didnt care for her.
> I keep telling her thats BS and she keeps laying blame on me but she insists that if cheating was always in her she would have done it a long time ago and had plenty of opportunities to do it and never even crossed her mind, not something she would ever do...
> 
> could use you guys help on this one, i mean this is a fundamental thing right? I dont feel i should just let this go, i will not take any blame for the affair but she keeps saying in an indirect way it was my fault?


As I read, you were At las Vegas and had a great time before affaire, dont you? Maybe she needed more attention,did she ask for it? 
I think she made a rationalitation to justify the A. But this is not your fault 
if she was so unhappy why didnt fil divorce? 
As Ido read, from her SMS to you, she was pretty into fog, and you was so plan B. I believe she is trying to keep that line just to keep married, she knows that ****ed up her family pretty bad and is desperated.she thinks she if can hold on married the A were not that big mess, she cant bare have been so bad so she BS and manipulate.
On other hand, I think she knows it was not your fault but if tell you she bellieve you r gonna be gonne for good. 
So as long you have accepted fault and played plan B, she will be doing BS.
Remember it was her fault 100%. You cant choose what you feel, but you can choose what to do. She choose cheating not talking.
She and her family, as I have read, need a reality bit to accept her respondability. 
You r the only one that knows what kind of **** you can live with. 
Quit being Plan B, sorry but you still r...
What do you think could happened if instead of a criminal OM were a Doctor... 

_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Just Joe

Cant,

Her unhappiness in your marriage made an affair more likely. Put her in position. But, in the end, we all must take responsibility for our own actions.

I was hungry and I went food shopping and I bought more food than I needed. Who was responsible for me being hungry? My wife burned dinner that night. Was she responsible? You know, I hate analogies, they never match up exactly, but I hope you get the point. SHE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR HER OWN ACTIONS. We all must deal with adversity. There were more ways to deal with her unhappiness than by cheating.

A husband and wife have a huge argument. Husband is really stressed out, goes out drinking with some friends and drank too much, then got arrested for drunk driving on the way home. Is that his wife's fault? She caused the stress, which led to the going out, which led to the drinking, which led to the drunk driving. THERE WERE A MILLION OTHER THINGS HE COULD HAVE DONE, AT A HUNDRED DIFFERENT POINTS ALONG THAT STORY LINE.

Your wife is responsible for her own actions, whether she was happy with you or not. There were a million other ways she could have dealt with it. I was in a store, I forgot my wallet, I really wanted a piece of bubble gum, no one was looking - I didn't just put it in my pocket and leave because the situation presented itself. THAT'S CALLED CHARACTER, THAT'S CALLED MORALS.

And if you do pick the wrong thing, later on, when you are caught, JUST TAKE FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN ACTIONS. Don't try to blame someone else.

One thing leads to another leads to another leads to another. That's life. We get put in bad situations because of our wives, our kids, our parents, our friends, complete strangers. It's not their fault if we make the wrong choice.

If your wife can't agree with this and take full responsibility, then at least you know what kind of person you're dealing with.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Fill divorce so she change attitude and you can heal and live with your self.
It doesnt mean you cant keep on R, just will allowd you to show them you r not Plan B, and she accept full responsability
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantBelieveThis

thanks Just Joe....makes a lot of sense and honestly she does say all that, that it was her weakness, her poor choice, she could have spoken to me about it and didnt, she could have done a lot of other things differently...she admits that completely....I mean countless of times for a very long time now

maybe am not explaining this right...let me say this....this topic seems to surface when I tell her that what she has done means that cheating is in her character....and I think this is what she doesnt like to hear....she proceeds to tell me how she never would have cheated on me before, how she never thought herself capable of cheating and then tells me that being is such a poor state of mind (apparently one she had never been in before) made it likely for her to make poor choices and lower her boundaries.....so in a way she is trying to convince me that cheating is NOT in her character and that she has learned a life lesson now due to her poor choices .

so maybe she is right and cheating is not her character? and i should not be mentioning that?


----------



## Nucking Futs

CantBelieveThis said:


> thanks Just Joe....makes a lot of sense and honestly she does say all that, that it was her weakness, her poor choice, she could have spoken to me about it and didnt, she could have done a lot of other things differently...she admits that completely....I mean countless of times for a very long time now
> 
> maybe am not explaining this right...let me say this....this topic seems to surface when I tell her that what she has done means that cheating is in her character....and I think this is what she doesnt like to hear....she proceeds to tell me how she never would have cheated on me before, how she never thought herself capable of cheating and then tells me that being is such a poor state of mind (apparently one she had never been in before) made it likely for her to make poor choices and lower her boundaries.....so in a way she is trying to convince me that cheating is NOT in her character and that she has learned a life lesson now due to her poor choices .
> 
> so maybe she is right and cheating is not her character? and i should not be mentioning that?


If cheating was not in her character she would have never cheated. People who don't have it in them to cheat don't cheat, no ifs, ands or buts.

The title of the thread says that she's doing all the right things. She's not. She's still not taking responsibility for her actions. She may be paying it lip service, but there's always this caveat to her mea culpas that it was your fault she was in a state that made her susceptible to cheating.

I don't think you can have a real R when deep down inside she blames you for her actions.


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> thanks Just Joe....makes a lot of sense and honestly she does say all that, that it was her weakness, her poor choice, she could have spoken to me about it and didnt, she could have done a lot of other things differently...she admits that completely....I mean countless of times for a very long time now
> 
> maybe am not explaining this right...let me say this....this topic seems to surface when I tell her that what she has done means that cheating is in her character....and I think this is what she doesnt like to hear....she proceeds to tell me how she never would have cheated on me before, how she never thought herself capable of cheating and then tells me that being is such a poor state of mind (apparently one she had never been in before) made it likely for her to make poor choices and lower her boundaries.....so in a way she is trying to convince me that cheating is NOT in her character and that she has learned a life lesson now due to her poor choices .
> 
> so maybe she is right and cheating is not her character? and i should not be mentioning that?


You will never know, sorry 
All you can do is restore trust, her job, and move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

CantBelieveThis said:


> She does fully admit her fault in taking on an affair *but she always, I mean almost always, states that she would have never done it if she wasnt in such a disappointed state of mind* and literally given up on the marriage, convinced that I didnt care for her.?


So, what she is saying is that in you intire relationship, she has never been "disappointed" with you. When she was "disappointed", she delt with it by having sex witn another man...



CantBelieveThis said:


> I keep telling her thats BS and she keeps laying blame on me but *she insists that if cheating was always in her she would have done it a long time ago and had plenty of opportunities to do it and never even crossed her mind, not something she would ever do*...


This may have been true before she cheated, but NOW it'll ALWAYS be a possability. There's no turning back the clock here. This ship has long since sailed.

You'll always be wondering if she gets "disappointed" enough with you, will she cheat again. You will ALWAYS wonder...

That's 100% ON HER, NOT YOU. You weren't the one that got "disappointed", I mean, cheated, after all. She did.


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## CantBelieveThis

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> So, what she is saying is that in you intire relationship, she has never been "disappointed" with you. When she was "disappointed", she delt with it by having sex witn another man...


she says she never had it felt like if our marriage was lost, that she had given up hope on it.....this is also one of her key points

but so what right? she made her own assumption about the state of the marriage w/o informing me so thats still all on her far as am concerned.....


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## Ripper

CantBelieveThis said:


> states that she would have never done it if she wasnt in such a disappointed state of mind and literally given up on the marriage, convinced that I didnt care for her.


Isn't this where you currently find yourself? Disappointed, thinking of giving up, and convinced she didn't care? By her logic and reasoning, it would be totally okay for you to go and have an affair. Just a gut feeling, but I don't think she would go for that.

Its blame shifting. Not a component of a successful R. Whatever she used to be, she is a cheater now. With that negative personality trait add to her dossier, she better add some new positive ones. Sounds like she needs to up her game.

For the posters saying divorce now, I typically agree. However, OP is looking at *lifetime* alimony.


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## LongWalk

You can reply to her that reconciliation won't fly if she can cheat when she has given up.

How do you know she is not going to do it again?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## turnera

CantBelieveThis said:


> she always, I mean almost always, states that *she would have never done it if she wasnt in such a disappointed state of mind* and literally given up on the marriage, convinced that I didnt care for her. I keep telling her thats BS and *she keeps laying blame on me* but she insists that if cheating was always in her she would have done it a long time ago and had plenty of opportunities to do it and never even crossed her mind, not something she would ever do...could use you guys help on this one, i mean this is a fundamental thing right? I dont feel i should just let this go, i will not take any blame for the affair but she keeps saying in an indirect way it was my fault?


Are you INSANE?


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## jim123

CantBelieveThis said:


> thanks Just Joe....makes a lot of sense and honestly she does say all that, that it was her weakness, her poor choice, she could have spoken to me about it and didnt, she could have done a lot of other things differently...she admits that completely....I mean countless of times for a very long time now
> 
> maybe am not explaining this right...let me say this....this topic seems to surface when I tell her that what she has done means that cheating is in her character....and I think this is what she doesnt like to hear....she proceeds to tell me how she never would have cheated on me before, how she never thought herself capable of cheating and then tells me that being is such a poor state of mind (apparently one she had never been in before) made it likely for her to make poor choices and lower her boundaries.....so in a way she is trying to convince me that cheating is NOT in her character and that she has learned a life lesson now due to her poor choices .
> 
> so maybe she is right and cheating is not her character? and i should not bwie mentioning that?


You are back to square one with this.

It is in character as she has done it. She created the state of mind in order to cheat. She is not taking ownership. There will always be problems in life. 

She cheated because she wanted to, end of story,

If she can justify it once, she can again.

Her lack of ownership will make it near impossible to fully R.


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## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> she says she never had it felt like if our marriage was lost, that she had given up hope on it.....this is also one of her key points
> 
> but so what right? she made her own assumption about the state of the marriage w/o informing me so thats still all on her far as am concerned.....


Stop her BS and start to heal!!!


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## Affaircare

CantBelieveThis, 

Let me summarize for you. If you had asked me years ago if I was capable of cheating or if it was in my character, I would have said "NO WAY" because in real life, overall, I am a very dedicated, responsible, honest, committed person. However, events lined up in such a way that I was vulnerable, and I made the choice to be unfaithful. Thus, even though I am hurt to the core to say that about myself, it is the truth. I wish it wasn't, but it is.

The reason I believe Dear Hubby and I are able to reconcile and heal is because I do admit this, and by admitting this I know that unless I keep my guard up and share with him openly and fearlessly ... it could happen again. I'm ashamed and yet at the same time very thing that I'm ashamed of is also the two-edged sword that helps heal because I KNOW IT'S IN ME, and I have to be always vigilant. 

If I can't admit it's in me, I'm not keeping an eye on it. 

And in the end, I think this is what is killing your marriage...slowly. It's sort of pride. She can not face the humiliation of admitting to herself that she is capable of the very thing she detests; but if she doesn't face it, she can't DEAL with it and she can't do things to prevent herself from doing it again or reassure you but showing you what she is doing to guard you and guard the marriage. 

Soooo... in a nutshell that's it. She had a choice of facing the truth about herself or killing her marriage, and facing herself is so scary she would rather lose you.


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## Just Joe

CantBelieveThis said:


> maybe am not explaining this right...let me say this....this topic seems to surface when I tell her that what she has done means that *cheating is in her character....and I think this is what she doesnt like to hear*....she proceeds to tell me how she never would have cheated on me before, how she never thought herself capable of cheating and then tells me that being is such a poor state of mind (apparently one she had never been in before) made it likely for her to make poor choices and lower her boundaries.....so in a way *she is trying to convince me that cheating is NOT in her character* and that she has learned a life lesson now due to her poor choices .
> 
> so maybe she is right and cheating is not her character? and *i should not be mentioning that?*


There are some here who would argue that cheating is in everyone's character, that anyone would cheat if presented with the perfect storm of bad circumstances. I disagree with that because I do know that I would never cheat, and I know there are others like me.

My wife hated cheaters, and I can't use that word strongly enough, HATED HATED HATED cheaters. Every time we would hear a story about a cheater, be it someone we knew, were friends with, were acquainted with, even if it was a celebrity on the news, I would just shrug my shoulders, it wouldn't bother me, but my wife would get a disgusted look on her face and go off on a little bit of a rant of how disgusted she was, how wrong it was, etc. Of course, my wife later wound up cheating, so now when there is a story about cheating, she has no reaction to it. 

Some time after I caught my wife cheating, it occurred to me that for the last couple of years, while she was doing it, (and still to this day), I couldn't recall her having that disgusted reaction. I asked her about it and she said something to the effect of how it would hypocritical of her now to act that way when she had done it herself.

I never told my wife that cheating was in her character. I can understand that hearing something like that would be very unpleasant. She did cheat, so she is capable under certain circumstances. Has she learned such a lesson that she would never do it again? If you overeat at one meal, does that mean that overeating is in your character?

I think you are being a little harsh with the cheating is in her character comments. Even though it may be true, or was true. I would lay off that particular comment going forward. With that comment, you seem to be focusing on attacking your wife rather than her bad actions. As a parent, something I think about when disciplining my kids is to focus on the bad action, not that my kid is a bad person or has bad character.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

thanks everyone for all the good comments...i am going to have a last and final chat with her on this topic and also get her to write it in paper in her own words.....she either gets it or she doesnt...it was all on her...

But I do agree with *Just Joe* comments that I should probably lay off keep telling her that cheating is in her character...I mean after all does it really matter? she cheated, plain and simple.


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> thanks everyone for all the good comments...i am going to have a last and final chat with her on this topic and also get her to write it in paper in her own words.....she either gets it or she doesnt...it was all on her...
> 
> But I do agree with *Just Joe* comments that I should probably lay off keep telling her that cheating is in her character...I mean after all does it really matter? she cheated, plain and simple.


:smthumbup: If she is not BS give her a rest about that! but be clear to her, that even your staying or filling D, next time is direct D in an eye blink!
and stop worrying about it! you have a lot other matters to think about


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## turnera

True. I hope you have made it clear that (1) you WILL randomly monitor her to ensure she hasn't started cheating again and (2) if you see that she is, you will IMMEDIATELY file for divorce with no room for negotiation. At least do that, ok?

Remember that women have to respect their men. You haven't done a lot to engender that respect in her.


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## Suspecting2014

turnera said:


> True. I hope you have made it clear that (*1) you WILL randomly monitor her to ensure she hasn't started cheating again and (2) if you see that she is, you will IMMEDIATELY file for divorce with no room for negotiation*. At least do that, ok?
> 
> *Remember that women have to respect their men. You haven't done a lot to engender that respect in her*.


Transparency is a must for R, I believe you are already doing that, and she is willing to allow every time! she is doing all things right, right?

Spouses must respect eachothers, period.

Give her a trust loan with a inmedite divorse clause, it will calms down your head.

Made clear to her that any suspicious activity, as silly as could be, will be consider a violation, sorry but you shoud not give room about this.

Focus on her taking her responsibility, from there you can focus on healing and you will feel less unattached.

Just other thing, if R is not working try to change what you r doing, epect different by doing the same is just not working!

Good luck


----------



## CantBelieveThis

turnera said:


> True. I hope you have made it clear that (1) you WILL randomly monitor her to ensure she hasn't started cheating again and (2) if you see that she is, you will IMMEDIATELY file for divorce with no room for negotiation. At least do that, ok?


oh believe me she knows....I have been very clear with her that...

a. I know that she knows that she wont make the same mistakes again that got her caught if she decides to cheat again, so I told her not to even think she can get away with it and try to outsmart me.

b. I have been crisp clear that if I discover evidence of her even thinking of trying to cheat again there will be NO confrontation from me of any kind, no chance to talk it out, she will just receive D papers at work...I will not provide any chance for explanation or hear anything she has to say.

She is totally an open book now with everything, thou I have to say after a year I have really pulled back a lot in the monitoring, just becausee there has been absolutely nothing at all....

She knows very well that D still on the table, I told her last week that I was going to give it until the end of the year and assess where I was at in terms of recovery...and that if I had not made progress towards healing that I would at least be separating from her at that point. She tells me "what happend to 2-5 years that it takes based on what we have read" and I told her I am not up to wait that long in misery, we only live once.


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## GusPolinski

CantBelieveThis said:


> She tells me "what happend to 2-5 years that it takes based on what we have read" and I told her I am not up to wait that long in misery, we only live once.


That's supposed to be 2-5 years of _*progressive* recovery_, not 2-5 years of waiting for some switch to magically flip.


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## warlock07

The issue with this is how OP's wife keeps manipulating him with her words, kids, through guilt, through shame and them through blame..

The fact that she would only reconcile only when her OM dumped her is the biggest issue here. Even now, her reason to reconcile seems to be fear of losing everything and becoming a laughing stock rather than the right ones.(Husband left, OM is a felon in jail)

CBT, when is the OM getting out ?


----------



## Suspecting2014

warlock07 said:


> The issue with this is how OP's wife keeps manipulating him with her words, through guilt, through shame and them through blame..
> 
> The fact that she would only reconcile only when her OM dumped her is the biggest issue here. Even now, her reason to reconcile seems to be fear of losing everything and becoming a laughing stock rather than the right ones.(Husband left, OM is a felon in jail)
> 
> CBT, when is the OM getting out ?


:iagree:
Be sure you are not PLAN B because there is always a PLAN A out there


----------



## warlock07

> she says she never had it felt like if our marriage was lost, that she had given up hope on it.....this is also one of her key points


Why did she not file for divorce or even ask for separation ? Whatever happened to dignity ? She was someone that loved you at some point. You have kids together. Could she even not do that ?

Was she so blameless in the marriage ?


----------



## CantBelieveThis

warlock07 said:


> The issue with this is how OP's wife keeps manipulating him with her words, kids, through guilt, through shame and them through blame..
> 
> The fact that she would only reconcile only when her OM dumped her is the biggest issue here. Even now, her reason to reconcile seems to be fear of losing everything and becoming a laughing stock rather than the right ones.(Husband left, OM is a felon in jail)
> 
> CBT, when is the OM getting out ?


he is not getting out until Aug 2016 I think...3 year sentence. Honestly am not worried about her tryin to get back to this loser...she knows she got played. but i am keeping an eye out anyways in case he gets out early!

I dont know if its manipulation or whatever, but she sure as hell is scared of to losing it all.....but I have to believe she loves me based on her actions thou, I mean she has been very committed for over a year now...at what point does one believe it or not, or is it something other than time thats required to truly believe they are doing it for the right reasons?


----------



## Nucking Futs

CantBelieveThis said:


> he is not getting out until Aug 2016 I think...3 year sentence. Honestly am not worried about her tryin to get back to this loser...she knows she got played. but i am keeping an eye out anyways in case he gets out early!
> 
> I dont know if its manipulation or whatever, but she sure as hell is scared of to losing it all.....but I have to believe she loves me based on her actions thou, *I mean she has been very committed for over a year now.*..at what point does one believe it or not, or is it something other than time thats required to truly believe they are doing it for the right reasons?


Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't she very committed for 15 years before she cheated? Apparently that wasn't enough.


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## warlock07

maybe she is doing the right things without a soul?


----------



## LongWalk

Read Bagdon. He got his wife to fall in love with him.

If you don't love your wife, just divorce.

Is she a good woman?


----------



## VFW

CantBelieveThis said:


> I mean she has been very committed for over a year now...at what point does one believe it or not, or is it something other than time thats required to truly believe they are doing it for the right reasons?


Certainly there are no guarantees, but I would say a year should buy you some credibility. You can't keep somebody down forever, they will just give up. No need to cut off your nose to spite your face.


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## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> he is not getting out until Aug 2016 I think...3 year sentence. Honestly am not worried about her tryin to get back to this loser...she knows she got played. but i am keeping an eye out anyways in case he gets out early!
> 
> I dont know if its manipulation or whatever, but she sure as hell is scared of to losing it all.....but I have to believe she loves me based on her actions thou, I mean she has been very committed for over a year now...at what point does one believe it or not, or is it something other than time thats required to truly believe they are doing it for the right reasons?


Ask her! Get a poly 

Otherwise you will never know 

The thing is that she chose him not you, you are/were safty net when he dumped her. 
You should ask:
Do you love me?
Do you want to stay married bc you love me? 
Do you miss him? 

Well u get the point. 

When this issues were clear you will be able to move on

I dont know other means to know whats in her head.
_Posted via Mobile Device_-


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## Just Joe

Suspecting2014 said:


> Ask her! Get a poly
> 
> Otherwise you will never know
> 
> The thing is that she chose him not you, you are/were safty net when he dumped her.
> You should ask:
> Do you love me?
> Do you want to stay married bc you love me?
> Do you miss him?
> 
> Well u get the point.
> 
> When this issues were clear you will be able to move on
> 
> I dont know other means to know whats in her head.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_-


Polys won't work well with those types of questions, too much room for conflicted feelings and gray areas. You need questions that have unequivocal yes/no answers, like is your name George Washington?


----------



## Just Joe

CantBelieveThis said:


> I dont know if its manipulation or whatever, but she sure as hell is scared of to losing it all.....but I have to believe she loves me based on her actions thou, I mean she has been very committed for over a year now...at what point does one believe it or not, or is it something other than time thats required to truly believe they are doing it for the right reasons?


If you are happy with her behavior, allow yourself to be happy. If you catch her cheating again, you will move on. It's very unlikely she will get away with it for very long if she does it again, you know what to look for, and like it or not, you can't help but noticing how she acts, how she is with the phone, all the tell-tale signs. Best of all, unlike most people who have been cheated on who kept it to themselves or a few trusted loved ones, you have been educated by this forum and can benefit from the collective knowledge of all the other people like you in similar situations who have posted here.

She's not cheating now, she's done everything she could, you've done everything you could, so just be happy until she gives you a reason not to.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Just Joe said:


> Polys won't work well with those types of questions, too much room for conflicted feelings and gray areas. You need questions that have unequivocal yes/no answers, like is your name George Washington?


Well then just ask her and make a choice.
Believe her or dont but move on and dont look back over this again
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Q tip

Her:

**Only three years. I can do it. Just three years and he'll be free**

** I just love bad boys. He may just be released early to me!**

**I'll show everyone! Dump Plan B and full on with Plan A**


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

She still doesn't take full responsability for her cheating. She blames her "diappointment" and her feeling that "the marriage was over" for it happening.

She may not have outright blamed the OP, but she certainly doesn't feel that it's all on her. A "You drove me to do it" kind of mentality.

I'm sorry, but I see little hope in a long term R with her when she still has this kind of attitude. Her reasons for cheating could very well reapare somewhere down the line.

If they do and she cheats again, she'll just hoist the same banner overhead, all over again. Point up towards it and say this is why I did it...


----------



## Just Joe

CantBelieveThis said:


> honestly she does say all that, t*hat it was her weakness, her poor choice, she could have spoken to me about it and didnt, she could have done a lot of other things differently...she admits that completely....I mean countless of times for a very long time now*
> 
> maybe am not explaining this right...let me say this....*this topic seems to surface when I tell her that what she has done means that cheating is in her character*....and I think this is what she doesnt like to hear....she proceeds to tell me how she never would have cheated on me before, how she never thought herself capable of cheating and then tells me that being is such a poor state of mind (apparently one she had never been in before) made it likely for her to make poor choices and lower her boundaries.....so in a way *she is trying to convince me that cheating is NOT in her character* and that she has learned a life lesson now due to her poor choices .
> 
> so maybe she is right and cheating is not her character? and i should not be mentioning that?


I would take exception to "cheating is in your character" too.

A few weeks ago I slept til noon, lounged around all day, had a million things to get done, did absolutely none of them, told my wife and kids I had a long hard stressful week at work and I was taking the day off, though I had promised to do some stuff for them. I was completely lazy. I wouldn't agree that lazy is in my character. Yeah, I hate analogies but my point is something we do once or even for a period of time may or may not be in our character. I do know people who will tell you, "Yeah, I'm lazy" or "yeah, I'm a procrastinator" and then I know other people who will tell you "I'm not a procrastinator but I did procrastinate on this one thing" or "I'm not lazy but I really have been slacking off at work for the past month."

His wife seems to be doing everything right, only objects to being told cheating is in her character. She'd be better off just agreeing with him, though she probably really doesn't believe cheating is in her character and she'd be lying if she did agree. She definitely would be better off flat out disagreeing with the cheating is in your character statement, but then leaving off the other stuff about blaming it on her poor state of mind, etc.

Based on what Cant has posted, I disagree that she hasn't taken responsibility for the cheating, Cant seems to be saying she has, but she takes exception to being told cheating is in her character.


----------



## Just Joe

CantBelieveThis said:


> * if R is not working...even with WS doing all the right things* does it mean it was a deal breaker, but you just havent accepted it? am finding it difficult to move past the transgression in general, cuts like a knife, almost seemingly getting worse over time (1 year out from DDay).
> 
> I have seen only a couple stories on here where BS decides to quit the R and move on to D "but" with a remorseful WS whom is doing the right things......
> 
> for the first time ever I am really having strong feelings of ending it all, I mean in ways I havent felt it before, as if there is no way I will ever be able to accept such level of betrayal...*how does one tell this is not just another up/down of the challenges of R or whether its for real and it means time to go?
> how does one move on to D with a very remorseful WS?* I dont intend to use the D as any kind of revenge or whatever, I know she will be totally devastated and will react very badly (maybe suicidal, unimaginable pain, non stop crying, begging, etc) and as the mother of my kids this concerns me....
> 
> sorry this is my original story on the link below, I guess if you call it that...
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/174401-hard-time-dealing-limbo.html


Cant, have you made any progress, one way or the other, since this first post? Do you still feel R is not working?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Just Joe said:


> I would take exception to "cheating is in your character" too.
> 
> A few weeks ago I slept til noon, lounged around all day, had a million things to get done, did absolutely none of them, told my wife and kids I had a long hard stressful week at work and I was taking the day off, though I had promised to do some stuff for them. * I was completely lazy. I wouldn't agree that lazy is in my character.* Yeah, I hate analogies but my point is something we do once or even for a period of time may or may not be in our character. I do know people who will tell you, "Yeah, I'm lazy" or "yeah, I'm a procrastinator" and then I know other people who will tell you "I'm not a procrastinator but I did procrastinate on this one thing" or "I'm not lazy but I really have been slacking off at work for the past month."
> 
> His wife seems to be doing everything right, only objects to being told cheating is in her character. She'd be better off just agreeing with him, though she probably really doesn't believe cheating is in her character and she'd be lying if she did agree. She definitely would be better off flat out disagreeing with the cheating is in your character statement, but then leaving off the other stuff about blaming it on her poor state of mind, etc.
> 
> Based on what Cant has posted, I disagree that she hasn't taken responsibility for the cheating, Cant seems to be saying she has, but she takes exception to being told cheating is in her character.


Being lazy _is_ in your character, just like cheating is in hers. If it's not in your character, you don't do it. You don't even think of doing it. You return a blank look like "wtf are you talking about" when someone suggests you do it. You can try to tell yourself it's not in your character to do something, but if you do it it's because it's in there.


----------



## Just Joe

Nucking Futs said:


> Being lazy _is_ in your character, just like cheating is in hers. If it's not in your character, you don't do it. You don't even think of doing it. You return a blank look like "wtf are you talking about" when someone suggests you do it. You can try to tell yourself it's not in your character to do something, but if you do it it's because it's in there.


I disagree with you.

Have you ever over-eaten at a meal? Then overeating is in your character.

Have you ever drank too much? Then getting drunk is in your character.

Have you ever lied?

Then lying is in your character.

Have you ever lost your temper?

Then losing your temper is in your character.

That whole line of thought I find to be ridiculous.

What does being "in your character" even mean? I take it to mean that it is a basic part of who you are, it is your nature, it is prevalent, not that you have ever done it one time.


----------



## Rugs

This thread is chasing it's tail. Will WW admit cheating is in her character? Will WW take full responsibility for the affair and not blame OP for helping put the marriage in the tank, making cheating her best option? 

The first is meh, we never know if we are cheaters until we cheat. It is a continuum line and you could argue that point forever. 

Is it OP's fault for WW's cheating? No, absolutely not. The marriage was in a bad state so I added to the problem by cheating and making it worse. It's like, I broke my diet by eating a cookie so I decided to eat the whole box and order a pizza too. WW took a bad situation and made it worse. Not OP's fault. 

Can't, 

If your wife saw the light and took full responsibility without blaming you, do you think it would make a difference? 

Is the spark just gone because of the betrayal? 

Some people just can't reconcile once that switch has been hit. 

It sounds very much (to me) that it might not matter what your wife does, the love needed to keep your marriage together is just gone. 

I'm not a cheater but I do know quite a few. Some are really truly remorseful and some are just not. 

I did not get from this thread what has changed in your marriage. What, in her mind, were you doing wrong in the marriage that is now automatically fixed. 

There was and is no shred at all of love for my ex husband. Nothing. Don't wish him bad, just no love at all. When I put myself in the shoes of a BS who wants to reconcile, I have to do it pretending that I love this person like no other and then try to give the best insight I can. 

OP, do you have love for your wife? Do you love her other than being the mother of your children?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Just Joe said:


> I disagree with you.
> 
> Have you ever over-eaten at a meal? Then overeating is in your character.
> 
> Have you ever drank too much? Then getting drunk is in your character.
> 
> Have you ever lied?
> 
> Then lying is in your character.
> 
> Have you ever lost your temper?
> 
> Then losing your temper is in your character.
> 
> That whole line of thought I find to be ridiculous.
> 
> What does being "in your character" even mean? I take it to mean that it is a basic part of who you are, it is your nature, it is prevalent, not that you have ever done it one time.


Being in your character means it's a possibility for you. It's something that you might do, not necessarily something that is "prevalent". Something that is not in your character is something that is inconceivable for you to do, just never going to happen. For example, I have never killed any one, but I know that under the right circumstances I can and will. Never done it but it is in my character to do it. By the same token, I've never cheated on my SO despite many opportunities. It's something that is so foreign to me that I literally can't understand how someone can do it. That's why when it happened to me there wasn't a single solitary second when I considered R. And that's why I say being lazy is in your character, and cheating is in hers. Being lazy and procrastination is also in my character, don't think I'm criticizing you for that because I'm not. But if it's not in your character you will never voluntarily do it.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Rugs said:


> This thread is chasing it's tail. Will WW admit cheating is in her character? Will WW take full responsibility for the affair and not blame OP for helping put the marriage in the tank, making cheating her best option?
> 
> The first is meh, we never know if we are cheaters until we cheat. It is a continuum line and you could argue that point forever.
> 
> Is it OP's fault for WW's cheating? No, absolutely not. The marriage was in a bad state so I added to the problem by cheating and making it worse. It's like, I broke my diet by eating a cookie so I decided to eat the whole box and order a pizza too. WW took a bad situation and made it worse. Not OP's fault.
> 
> Can't,
> 
> If your wife saw the light and took full responsibility without blaming you, do you think it would make a difference?
> 
> Is the spark just gone because of the betrayal?
> 
> Some people just can't reconcile once that switch has been hit.
> 
> It sounds very much (to me) that it might not matter what your wife does, the love needed to keep your marriage together is just gone.
> 
> I'm not a cheater but I do know quite a few. Some are really truly remorseful and some are just not.
> 
> *I did not get from this thread what has changed in your marriage. What, in her mind, were you doing wrong in the marriage that is now automatically fixed. *
> 
> There was and is no shred at all of love for my ex husband. Nothing. Don't wish him bad, just no love at all. When I put myself in the shoes of a BS who wants to reconcile, I have to do it pretending that I love this person like no other and then try to give the best insight I can.
> 
> OP, do you have love for your wife? Do you love her other than being the mother of your children?


This is a good question.


----------



## Just Joe

Nucking Futs said:


> Being in your character means it's a possibility for you. It's something that you might do, not necessarily something that is "prevalent". Something that is not in your character is something that is inconceivable for you to do, just never going to happen. For example, I have never killed any one, but I know that under the right circumstances I can and will. Never done it but it is in my character to do it. By the same token, I've never cheated on my SO despite many opportunities. It's something that is so foreign to me that I literally can't understand how someone can do it. That's why when it happened to me there wasn't a single solitary second when I considered R. And that's why I say being lazy is in your character, and cheating is in hers. Being lazy and procrastination is also in my character, don't think I'm criticizing you for that because I'm not. But if it's not in your character you will never voluntarily do it.


Where do you get this stuff from? Is this your opinion or are you reading out of some book? Because I really disagree with how you define what is or is not in a person's "character."


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## Nucking Futs

Just Joe said:


> Where do you get this stuff from? Is this your opinion or are you reading out of some book? Because I really disagree with how you define what is or is not in a person's "character."


I'm basing it on the dictionary definition of "character", "_the aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person or __thing._" You are claiming that you do things that are not in your nature to do, and I'm claiming that if you do it it's in your nature to do it. It may not be in your nature to do it frequently, but it's there. Things that are not in your nature to do you will not intentionally do.

I believe you're basing your opinion on the word "characteristic", "_Also, characteristical. pertaining to, constituting, or indicating the character__ or peculiar quality of a person or thing; typical; __distinctive:_" You say if you do it once or I guess only occasionally (since I'm assuming you've had more than one lazy day in your life) that it's not part of your character. I'm saying it's part of your character but not necessarily such a large part of your character that it would be descriptive of it.

I've now committed the third classic blunder by getting into a semantic argument on the internet. This will be my last post on this subject, I leave the last word to you.


----------



## Ripper

CantBelieveThis said:


> he is not getting out until Aug 2016 I think...3 year sentence.


If for whatever reason you are still in this marriage when his release date comes due, have a post-nup in place. Her end of this R is shaky already. How well will it fare when POSOM comes sniffing back around?

Fresh out of prison, he is going to be looking for an easy mark. She has unfortunately proven to be just that.


----------



## Paladin

*Re: Re: if R is not working...even with WS doing all the right things*



Just Joe said:


> There are some here who would argue that cheating is in everyone's character, that anyone would cheat if presented with the perfect storm of bad circumstances. I disagree with that because I do know that I would never cheat, and I know there are others like me.


This is off topic a bit, but disagree all you want, there can be a scenario where you would also cheat, as anyone else would. There is always a breaking point, for instance, a gun to your child's head, or the prospect of torture and murder of loved ones. Obviously not a realistic scenario, but im assuming you catch my meaning.

There is a fine line between understanding the pathology of an affair in order to prevent it from happening again, and blaming the BS for the actual choice to cheat. Affair cares post a page or so back draws a nice distinction.


----------



## Nucking Futs

Paladin said:


> This is off topic a bit, but disagree all you want, there can be a scenario where you would also cheat, as anyone else would. There is always a breaking point, for instance, a gun to your child's head, or the prospect of torture and murder of loved ones. Obviously not a realistic scenario, but im assuming you catch my meaning.
> 
> There is a fine line between understanding the pathology of an affair in order to prevent it from happening again, and blaming the BS for the actual choice to cheat. Affair cares post a page or so back draws a nice distinction.


Note the word in bold in my quote below. When I say intentionally I mean of your own free will, not being coerced or by accident. So when I say it's not in my nature to cheat it is with the caveat that I may be forced to do so but would never chose to do so. And that's assuming I could get it up with a gun to my childs head, something I wouldn't want to bet on.



> I'm basing it on the dictionary definition of "character", "_the aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person or __thing._" You are claiming that you do things that are not in your nature to do, and I'm claiming that if you do it it's in your nature to do it. It may not be in your nature to do it frequently, but it's there. Things that are not in your nature to do you will not *intentionally* do.


Damn it, I did it again.:slap:


----------



## Just Joe

Nucking Futs said:


> I'm basing it on the dictionary definition of "character", "_the aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person or __thing._" You are claiming that you do things that are not in your nature to do, and I'm claiming that if you do it it's in your nature to do it. It may not be in your nature to do it frequently, but it's there. Things that are not in your nature to do you will not intentionally do.
> 
> I believe you're basing your opinion on the word "characteristic", "_Also, characteristical. pertaining to, constituting, or indicating the character__ or peculiar quality of a person or thing; typical; __distinctive:_" You say if you do it once or I guess only occasionally (since I'm assuming you've had more than one lazy day in your life) that it's not part of your character. I'm saying it's part of your character but not necessarily such a large part of your character that it would be descriptive of it.
> 
> I've now committed the third classic blunder by getting into a semantic argument on the internet. This will be my last post on this subject, I leave the last word to you.


You were the one who nit-picked on my post about Cant's telling his wife about cheating being in her character. Sorry, it bothered me that you did it and it bothered me that you got it wrong. Now I see you cherry-picked the part of the definition that suited your purpose, but probably not the one that is appropriate in this given situation, which I believe is this:

_— in character
: in accord with a person's usual qualities or traits <behaving in character>
— out of character
: not in accord with a person's usual qualities or traits <his rudeness was completely out of character>_


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## Nucking Futs

Just Joe said:


> You were the one who nit-picked on my post about Cant's telling his wife about cheating being in her character. Sorry, it bothered me that you did it and it bothered me that you got it wrong. Now I see you cherry-picked the part of the definition that suited your purpose, but probably not the one that is appropriate in this given situation, which I believe is this:
> 
> _— in character
> : in accord with a person's usual qualities or traits <behaving in character>
> — out of character
> : not in accord with a person's usual qualities or traits <his rudeness was completely out of character>_


Ok, I was planning to give you the last word but you accused me of cherry picking to make my point. I used the DEFINITION OF THE WORD, you picked your part out of the IDIOM SECTION. I'm done arguing semantics with you, I have no respect for you at all any more, and if you're wondering why I'm so annoyed about this look up the meaning of the word idiom so you can see the foolish mistake you made.


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## GusPolinski

NF... Can I just say...

Your (current) sig is F*CKING HIGH-LARIOUS...



Nucking Futs said:


> I don't like making plans for my day because then words like "premeditated" get thrown around the courtroom.


:lol: :rofl:


----------



## GusPolinski

Q tip said:


> Her:
> 
> **Only three years. I can do it. Just three years and he'll be free**
> 
> ** I just love bad boys. He may just be released early to me!**
> 
> **I'll show everyone! Dump Plan B and full on with Plan A**


I hate to say it, but ^this would be the *one thing* in OP's semi-unique situation that would be a real problem for me in terms of reconciling w/ his wife.


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## CantBelieveThis

GusPolinski said:


> I hate to say it, but ^this would be the *one thing* in OP's semi-unique situation that would be a real problem for me in terms of reconciling w/ his wife.


for some reason I am not worried about them trying to hook back up when he gets out.....she appears to hate him quite a bit now and she knows deep inside she got played big time from this guy. She realized how he lied to her about him being out on bond and feels totally fooled.....
I mean could it happen? of course, anything is possible, I never thought she would cheat, but I think the probability is pretty low......

The thing thats still sits strong between her and I fully reconciling is the simple fact of *betrayal* - is one single word that describes it all.


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## CantBelieveThis

Rugs said:


> I did not get from this thread what has changed in your marriage. What, in her mind, were you doing wrong in the marriage that is now automatically fixed.


I was too focused on work, not paying attention to her, never wanting to go out anywhere with her, the usual stuff you hear....I fixed my end of things on this regard


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## Nucking Futs

CantBelieveThis said:


> for some reason I am not worried about them trying to hook back up when he gets out.....*she appears to hate him quite a bit now* and she knows deep inside she got played big time from this guy. She realized how he lied to her about him being out on bond and feels totally fooled.....
> I mean could it happen? of course, anything is possible, I never thought she would cheat, but I think the probability is pretty low......
> 
> The thing thats still sits strong between her and I fully reconciling is the simple fact of *betrayal* - is one single word that describes it all.


She still has passionate feelings about him. The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.


----------



## Just Joe

Nucking Futs said:


> Ok, I was planning to give you the last word but you accused me of cherry picking to make my point. I used the DEFINITION OF THE WORD, you picked your part out of the IDIOM SECTION. I'm done arguing semantics with you, I have no respect for you at all any more, and if you're wondering why I'm so annoyed about this look up the meaning of the word idiom so you can see the foolish mistake you made.


The idiom is how Cant was using it Mr Linguist. Go back and look at his posts to see how he was using it.

You have no respect for me? Boo f'ing hoo.

BTW I looked at some of your other posts and you never let anyone have the last word. Apparently this is a thing with you where you pick apart what someone else has posted and hijack the thread.

Cant, I hope you are able to overcome the nagging thoughts that have been troubling you. I'm out.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Divinely Favored

Paladin said:


> This is off topic a bit, but disagree all you want, there can be a scenario where you would also cheat, as anyone else would. There is always a breaking point, for instance, a gun to your child's head, or the prospect of torture and murder of loved ones. Obviously not a realistic scenario, but im assuming you catch my meaning.
> 
> There is a fine line between understanding the pathology of an affair in order to prevent it from happening again, and blaming the BS for the actual choice to cheat. Affair cares post a page or so back draws a nice distinction.


That would be rape or sexual assault. I would not call rape victims cheaters!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## CantBelieveThis

well off to London tomorrow for almost 2 weeks....in a way looking forward to time away from her.....this would be the longest time I have been away from her since DDay so will see how it goes, thou she doesnt know it I do tend to keep communications with her to a minimum and stick to it about kids, etc......will c how it goes, if anyone got any ideas how i should handle, fire away.....


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## Ripper

Sounds good. Try to clear your head a little and focus on something besides your domestic situation.

You will either start to miss her or become more indifferent. Did you put any surveillance in place?


----------



## Jasel

CantBelieveThis said:


> if anyone got any ideas how i should handle, fire away.....


Try not to think about her and enjoy yourself as much as you can:smthumbup:


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## Truthseeker1

CantBelieveThis said:


> well off to London tomorrow for almost 2 weeks....in a way looking forward to time away from her.....this would be the longest time I have been away from her since DDay so will see how it goes, thou she doesnt know it I do tend to keep communications with her to a minimum and stick to it about kids, etc......will c how it goes, if anyone got any ideas how i should handle, fire away.....


Try to enjoy yourself. Time permitting pick things you would not have ordinarily done and try them. You seem to be in a hard place emotionally and until you start doing things for you - you won't be able to see new possibilities your life holds. With or without your wife make your life the best it can be for you. I think the more interests you have independent of her the better off you will be.


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## Suspecting2014

CBT, 

How r u feeling?


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## CantBelieveThis

Suspecting2014 said:


> How r u feeling?


had a great time in London, hung out a lot with work buddies and did fun things.....thou it didnt really help me get my mind off it more as i thought it would....but I did look at a lot of brit women and it felt refreshing to do so!!! she was worried I wouldnt come back so she never really left me alone the entire time I was there, constantly texting me and being loving and nice with me....

things are still ok, hanging in there, I seem to have better days than bad ones now but the bad days are still pretty ****ty with a lot of urges to end things...

I had it out with her badly the other night because she told me he held her hand walking one day....wtf, that really bothered me a lot, just felt painfully romantic.....I told her I am almost feeling like am staying for the kids, she reacted badly to that and literally begged me to not stay if I didnt love her and that I deserved better than that.....


----------



## Ripper

CantBelieveThis said:


> literally begged me to not stay if I didnt love her and that I deserved better than that.....


Her view point would change if she was looking at having to pay you for *life*. 

All you can do is keeping going along. You can't force reconciliation, either you can get past most the issues and be satisfied or not. One thing is certain, it won't ever be what it was.

If not, maybe something will change. Florida may drop lifetime alimony or maybe something will come up and you can move to a more reasonable state.

Good luck, no one deserves this.


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> had a great time in London, hung out a lot with work buddies and did fun things.....thou it didnt really help me get my mind off it more as i thought it would....but I did look at a lot of brit women and it felt refreshing to do so!!! she was worried I wouldnt come back so she never really left me alone the entire time I was there, constantly texting me and being loving and nice with me....
> 
> things are still ok, hanging in there, I seem to have better days than bad ones now but the bad days are still pretty ****ty with a lot of urges to end things...
> 
> I had it out with her badly the other night because she told me he held her hand walking one day....wtf, that really bothered me a lot, just felt painfully romantic.....I told her I am almost feeling like am staying for the kids, she reacted badly to that and literally begged me to not stay if I didnt love her and that I deserved better than that.....


Dont do it for the kids! Its a huge mistake 
Glad u r having fun
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## LongWalk

Glad you had a good trip to London. You've been in R for awhile now. Do you feel your wife has grown? Is she a better person? 

Women know when their men are distant. You don't have to say a lot to her.

Read Acoa's story. RoadScholar's. Racer's. All men who have been in your shoes.

Did your wife finish nursing school?

Is she doing a good job as a mother and housewife?

One poster SkaterDad is from Florida. He said Florida, because of the sun? is packed with middle aged divorced women who cheated.

Is sex different now? Is your wife gratefully for your touch? Are you more dominant?


----------



## Mr Blunt

> *By Cantbelievthis*
> The thing that still sits strong between her and I fully reconciling is the simple fact of betrayal - is one single word that describes it all



*Shyt or get off the pot! Don’t you think you have had enough time of being torn one way then the other?*

If you need help getting off the pot then go get it. You area a resourceful man with means so you have absolutely no excuse for not getting help with your fence riding and the thing that is keeping you on the fense; BETRAYAL. *What help have you got besides here at TAM?[/*

If you cannot get enough better with the betrayal to make your life good enough to help you and your children then take a shyt and flush the toilet (get divorced and start a new life)

On the other hand, if you can and will find a way to get better with the betrayal then you seem to have the other issues under control. If you can get better with the betrayal it seems by your posts that going into the R is the best for you and your children. You said that your wife is a very good mom so that is one big one to consider.


Frankly it seems to me that you have not handled the betrayal that is dominating your emotions as good as you could have. I am NOT telling you that the betrayal is your fault or that the betrayal is going away this year or next year. I am saying that if you decide to R then you can *MAKE UP YOUR MIND THAT YOU ARE GOING TO FIERCELY ATTACK THE DEMONS OF THE BETRAYAL SO THAT YOU CAN GET BETTER!!!! *I say this because you are a very resourceful man and have lots of recourses. At some point you should stop allowing the hurt to dominate your life as much. I know the hurt is not going to go completly away so you should allow your mind and your practical logic to weigh in on your choices a bit more than the emotions.

Al of us BSs know that betrayal-Infidelity is the giant marriage killer that will hurt you to the bone. I suggest that you actively do things in body, mind, and spirit to battle the betrayal or get a divorce. Your wife has forfeited the right to have any defense in the event that you choose divorce. She is at your mercy and you do not have to give her another chance.

Here listed below are some of the factors that you have stated in your posts:

1	Your wife is truly remorseful
2	Your wife has shown you with ACTIONS that she is dedicated to you
3	In your state you will pay through the AZZ for alimony and child support
4	At best with a divorce you will have the children 50% of the time as apposed to 100%
5	Your wife is a very good mother.
6	Your wife has written and done some things about the OM that cuts right through the bone. You will have to fiercely attack those demons if you are going to R
7	Your wife loves you
8	You love your wife
9	It bothers you when she is hurt and you have empathy for her
10	It bothers your wife that she hurt you


Those are just a few that I remember off the top of my head. I am sure you know more and will take all those into consideration to determine if you are going to shyt or get off the pot.


Of course you can take another year or two of riding the fence and that of course is your call. That maybe right for you but you have constantly asked for opinions from us BSs so I am giving mine here.


Here is what I did when I paid for my wife to go to night college as I supported the family and watches the 3 children:

* She cheated with a fellow student
I divorced her the first year
She stayed at our house and never moved in with the OM
After she proved to me for FOUR years that she was remorseful, I remarried her*
The only think that I did not do was get a pre-nup before I remarried her.

One other note that may help you and your wife if you R. Do not put the same amount of attention and money into the lesser building blocks of marriage. For instance spending 40K on boob jobs and other sexual attention getters. Now that you both are around 40 years old it is time that you focus on values that can have longevity. A few such values are commitment, perseverance, denying temptations that damage, and dedicated to qualities of principals instead of going on FEELINGS. Feeling can feel real good and some feeling are good. However, *feeling should NEVER be placed above your committed principles and values.*

Anything that tempts you or pulls you away from your principles and values should be actively eliminated. Just because something is exciting, feels good or is attractive does not mean that it is good for your self or your relationships.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

thanks for the awesome feedback *Blunt*!!

*LongWalk* I do feel she has grown from this....but honestly she was always a good person and she is back to whom she always was....and yes she did finish nursing school almost 2 years ago.
we ALWAYS had great sex, and its even better now I can say...much more passionate, sadly sex was never an issue between us, certainly I dont believe sex was anything to do with her decision to cheat....

another thing that I find that haunts me a lot is her parents....I really thought a lot more of them before this and always thought they were the example of a great marriage that their daughters were following....but after seen there carefree attitude when she cheated it really drives me nuts to the point I can hardly be around them....they never said anything to her, never got mad or even said a word to me either....like if it never happened....I cant stand it, why is this?

her bday was last week, I caved in and got her a nice bracelet that she has been wanting for a while....we are also having a bday party for her this weekend and honestly am dreading it just seen everyone happy and celebrating her 40th, while I will feel like total crap inside, specially with her parents there....

I am thinking of drawing a line somewhere, i have to...am tempted to tell her am giving it until the end of this year and if I have not made some improvement by then I will pull the plug....i dont care anymore how she takes it...she wont like it but I feel am at a point where I have to force some decision making with a hard timeline....good idea or should I really give it more time, like 2 years?


----------



## 3Xnocharm

CantBelieveThis said:


> I am thinking of drawing a line somewhere, i have to...am tempted to tell her am giving it until the end of this year and if I have not made some improvement by then I will pull the plug....i dont care anymore how she takes it...she wont like it but I feel am at a point where I have to force some decision making with a hard timeline....good idea or should I really give it more time, like 2 years?


I think two years is WAY too long. The end of the year seems reasonable, given the time you have already put in.


----------



## Ripper

The end of the year sounds good. You can always extend it if you wish. Attempting to reconcile this is your choice and gift to her, not something she is entitled too.

If you allowed it, would she simply try to rug sweep this and go back to normal? Or do you think she would continue to be contrite?


----------



## GusPolinski

3Xnocharm said:


> I think two years is WAY too long. The end of the year seems reasonable, given the time you have already put in.


I think he means two years total from D-Day... he's a little over one year past D-Day as it is.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

CantBelieveThis said:


> another thing that I find that haunts me a lot is her parents....I really thought a lot more of them before this and always thought they were the example of a great marriage that their daughters were following....but after seen there carefree attitude when she cheated it really drives me nuts to the point I can hardly be around them....they never said anything to her, never got mad or even said a word to me either....like if it never happened....I cant stand it, why is this?


Did you ever talk to her parents about your feelings or let your wife know that you feel that her family betrayed you too?


----------



## workindad

CBT, you have been more than generous. You have nothing to feel bad about if you can't R. You have given the process an honest attempt. 

If you can't, this is on her and not on you. She didn't consider your feelings wen she was cheating or understand the value of your family unit then. She knew the potential outcome of her actions.

As for her parents. I think you can expect them to help their daughter as much as they can. Even if that means trying to act like everything is normal as a way of supporting her.

I do like to read stories of successful R and I hope you can find a way to turn the corner. However, I do believe that R is more difficult than D based on the stories I have read here (note, I have no personal experience with R).

In the end, if you can't do it, it is not a reflection on you. You should have never had to deal with this immense burden in the first place.

I wish you and your family well and hope you find peace.

WD


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## clipclop2

Address the family issue. It will always make you doubt your safety in the marriage because you cannot trust that the whole family environment is supportive of you and condemning enough of infidelity. Maybe you will find that they are embarrassed and can only deal by glossing over because they fear their daughter's behaviors reflect bad parenting. Maybe they are too self centered to see that this is not about them. 

It is difficult to get over betrayal when all the sources are not addressed. They could be a huge stumbling block for you.

What's your wife's take?


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## turnera

I think you should talk to her parents, respectfully, and tell them how much it bothers you the way they're handling this. It might tell you what you need to know about moving on. Plus it will give you peace of mind.


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> thanks for the awesome feedback *Blunt*!!
> 
> *LongWalk* I do feel she has grown from this....but honestly she was always a good person and she is back to whom she always was....and yes she did finish nursing school almost 2 years ago.
> we ALWAYS had great sex, and its even better now I can say...much more passionate, sadly sex was never an issue between us, certainly I dont believe sex was anything to do with her decision to cheat....
> 
> another thing that I find that haunts me a lot is her parents....I really thought a lot more of them before this and always thought they were the example of a great marriage that their daughters were following....but after seen there carefree attitude when she cheated it really drives me nuts to the point I can hardly be around them....they never said anything to her, never got mad or even said a word to me either....like if it never happened....I cant stand it, why is this?
> 
> her bday was last week, I caved in and got her a nice bracelet that she has been wanting for a while....we are also having a bday party for her this weekend and honestly am dreading it just seen everyone happy and celebrating her 40th, while I will feel like total crap inside, specially with her parents there....
> 
> I am thinking of drawing a line somewhere, i have to...am tempted to tell her am giving it until the end of this year and if I have not made some improvement by then I will pull the plug....i dont care anymore how she takes it...she wont like it but I feel am at a point where I have to force some decision making with a hard timeline....good idea or should I really give it more time, like 2 years?


Every day of R is a gift not a promise.
The whole thing about R is try. Try really hard. But there is no guarantee of success even doing the rigth thing. 
By now you should be doing much better, if u r not u should answer these questions 
Did u forgive her? 
Can u live with ur self if you stay?
Do un still love her? 
IMO most people droop R just because can not be with the person that betray them. 
It is not a choisse is who u r! And At least u try
Dont stay for the kids, u must save them from the tóxic enviroment of a failled R. My folks divorse after years of being unhappy, they decided to stay toguether for us...huge mistake! Me and my brothers until these days have issues from disfuntional couple paterns from that time, no mentioning the memories of very unhappy times.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Ripper said:


> If you allowed it, would she simply try to rug sweep this and go back to normal? Or do you think she would continue to be contrite?


i think she would continue to be contrite, based on what I think i know about her, i could be wrong thou but I doubt it.



Plan 9 from OS said:


> Did you ever talk to her parents about your feelings or let your wife know that you feel that her family betrayed you too?


at the beginning of this mess yes, her mom, and she turned away at me suddenly, as if she didnt want to talk about it anymore....she just would tell me that her daughter "made a mistake and you guys need to move on", so big time rug sweeping. Also my wife told her recently that we were not doing so good and she told her "i thought this was water under the bridge, is he still bringing things up??"....that really set me off!!!



clipclop2 said:


> It is difficult to get over betrayal when all the sources are not addressed. They could be a huge stumbling block for you.
> 
> What's your wife's take?


she tells me to leave them alone and stop thinking about it, that they dont want to be involved in our marriage and that I should let it be, is their choice....ppfff, whatever!!

I was clear with her that if any of our kids did this in the future I would be very upset at them and show it....



Suspecting2014 said:


> By now you should be doing much better, if u r not u should answer these questions
> Did u forgive her? *Hell no...not even close yet*
> Can u live with ur self if you stay? *dont know, thats the hard part*
> Do un still love her? *yes, absolutely, i think this is why this stings so much*


----------



## CantBelieveThis

this is from last night....i always call her out quickly if I feel that she is sounding selfish, because she told me yesterday she "hates it when I feel bad about the cheating, hates it when I get distanced from her" and as you can see she took off on me yesterday with this, I told her I didnt want to hear that tone and attitude again...she apologized later...


----------



## LongWalk

Raw and immature.

Is she pulling her weight as a parent? Did she finish the nursing course? Get a job?

Are you still having sex?

I think the two of you should set goals so that you don't concentrate on the affair. Save that for MC.

You reserve the right to divorce her if the healing stagnates.


----------



## turnera

I'd make it clear that HER guilt is HER burden, and not to be dumped on you. It's a consequence. Too bad so sad. Inform her that if she feels the need to show you that she's hurting worse than you are, you'll feel the need to divorce. She can suffer in silence on THAT subject. Like a grownup.


----------



## warlock07

I told her I am almost feeling like am staying for the kids, she reacted badly to that and literally begged me to not stay if I didnt love her and that I deserved better than that

I don't think she is being honest here. Esp from what you've described of her.


----------



## warlock07

CantBelieveThis said:


> this is from last night....i always call her out quickly if I feel that she is sounding selfish, because she told me yesterday she "hates it when I feel bad about the cheating, hates it when I get distanced from her" and as you can see she took off on me yesterday with this, I told her I didnt want to hear that tone and attitude again...she apologized later...
> 
> [IMG-100x50]http://i.imgur.com/282vFyJ.jpg[/IMG]



So this is what that goes inside her head huh? 

She dd not have a drunk ONS. this was a months long affair that did not even end when you caught her. Only once she got dumped and she realized he was going to jail, did she start showing any regret.


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## turnera

Personally, I'd be thinking separate living quarters.


----------



## Ripper

That whole text message screams "I feel bad enough, quit bringing it up!" 

Isn't that basically an attempt at rugsweeping?


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## Lovemytruck

CantBelieveThis said:


> this is from last night....i always call her out quickly if I feel that she is sounding selfish, because she told me yesterday she "hates it when I feel bad about the cheating, hates it when I get distanced from her" and as you can see she took off on me yesterday with this, I told her I didnt want to hear that tone and attitude again...she apologized later...


It feels like a tornado. I was spinning with this stuff before ending it.

I came to a point when I realized more damage was being done by attempting R than ending it with a D.

The short term hurt of filing and moving on might be a bump in your road compared to more and more of this. I actually might be a benefit for HER to end it. I felt that way about my exWW. A fresh start (path, person, marriage, etc.) might save you and her years of heartache.

Good luck. We are cheering for you!


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## Mr Blunt

> *By Cantbelievthis*
> this is from last night....i always call her out quickly if I feel that she is sounding selfish, because she told me yesterday *she "hates it when I feel bad about the cheating, hates it when I get distanced from her"* and as you can see she took off on me yesterday with this, I told her I didnt want to hear that tone and attitude again...she apologized later...
> 
> [/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> If her words above are true and you believe them then you at least have a wife that is saying stuff that seems positive. She is saying that she hates what she did, hates hurting you, knows what she did, and is hurt to the bone and soul. Now, if you are going to R you need to take the right actions to help yourself and watch to see if her words match her actions.
> 
> [B]What actions have you takes to get better?
> What actions have you taken to start the forgiveness part?[/B]
> Without you doing those two you will not R or have a successful D!
> 
> You say that you love her. If that is true and you want to R then you are going to have to accept taking one in the AZZ! There is no fairness in infidelity. She shyt on you and you both have to pay the price weather you R or D.
> 
> Forget about her parents and stop expecting them to help you. [B]This situation is up to you, your recourses that you get and utilize, and your God.[/B]
> 
> You both are so wounded and if you look to her to get you better and she looks to you to get better, well right now that is not going to work. You are both weak and cannot do much to help each other right now. [B]You both need to get help from other sources that deal with the mind the body and the spirit.[/B]
> 
> 
> From what you have written it seems that your wife is trying to get better and has shown some ACTIONS that prove that. What action have you taken? I am not blaming you for this situation I am trying to see if you are going to take actions to get better that include more than at TAM. TAM can help but we are not enough.


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## workindad

She seems to be able to express what you don't know quite well. From her perspective anyway. Perhaps you should return the favor and lay that set of cards on the table.


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## larry.gray

CantBelieveThis said:


> at the beginning of this mess yes, her mom, and she turned away at me suddenly, as if she didnt want to talk about it anymore....she just would tell me that her daughter "made a mistake and you guys need to move on", so big time rug sweeping. Also my wife told her recently that we were not doing so good and she told her "i thought this was water under the bridge, is he still bringing things up??"....that really set me off


I would tell your wife that you expect her to be very pissed off at her mother on your behalf. Make it clear to her that this is a major stumbling block for you, and swaying her parents on this will help you.


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## bigfoot

I have to say that I take her message as a a positive sign with caution. She really seems to get it. Sure she dwells on her pain, but its not some piddly "I'm hurting too" bull****. She sounds like someone who really understands the devastation that she caused and is overcome with the voices in her head of how horrible a person she was.

I mean, there really is no good way to say, "I fvcked another dude and then was a b!tch about it afterwards. I guess I am saying that she wants you to know that she is suffering because she caused and is causing you to suffer. I mean sometimes when all you hear and feel is that you fvcked up, eventually you will lash out with a big old childish, "I know, I fvcking know." 

When you love someone and you hurt them and are remorseful, that is a burden that I would not wish on anyone. I encountered someone who hurt their child while doing something stupid and dangerous. The kid still had the scar on their body, but the parent had a scar on their soul. It was all fun and giggles until blood was spilled. Years later, they still can't forgive themselves.

While I for the life of me cannot fathom how you reconcile with a cheating spouse, I respect those that do. In this case, her pain at betraying you seems palpable. It will never be enough to unfvck the dude or unsay the things of the past. I mean is there anything that she could say that would make you go, "Okay, its all good now"? Of course not. Instead, you have to decide, can you move on with her. If you can't, its not because she has failed to show contrition. It is because of what cannot be undone. For some, it is a deal breaker. 

Consider this, if you stick it out, she is going to have to be an equal partner in the marriage. She is gonna have boundaries for you. She is gonna have the expectation that retribution stop. You can trigger, and she owes you a duty to help you with that until whenever or forever. Can you deal with that? If not, then leave her and she will know it is because of what she did and her guilt will continue UNTIL she moves on with her life. And if you leave, as awesome as you may be and and horrible as she may be, at some point life moves on and she is going to move into another relationship and will not spend the rest of her life pining over you and feeling guilty because she will owe her heart and soul to another. Likewise, you will move on and will not be wondering how miserable she is because of her cheating because you will owe your heart and soul to another. That is life.

In sum, what else can she say? She get's to be angry, too. She gets it. For some, they want the epic breakdown, suicide attempt, wailing and gnashing of teeth...ain't gonna happen and if it did, still does not unfvck anyone. good luck.


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## clipclop2

Has SHE talked to her parents about what she has done to help them understand the scale of the pain she has caused not just you but the entire family? That includes their shame.

They are dismissive. I would want to throttle them. I think you are handling it great but I know that for me this would be a huge reminder that the family has not been healed. They have not been healed and perhaps they are from a different generation, like the WWII gen where you just accepted and stuffed your feelings and moved on. But that is not an excuse not to have empathy. 

I guess the question is whether they would say the same to her if you had been the betrayer.


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## jim123

CantBelieveThis said:


> this is from last night....i always call her out quickly if I feel that she is sounding selfish, because she told me yesterday she "hates it when I feel bad about the cheating, hates it when I get distanced from her" and as you can see she took off on me yesterday with this, I told her I didnt want to hear that tone and attitude again...she apologized later...


This is a good message to use to get your message across.

I would say something like this.

I know you well enough to know you would feel guilty about hurting your best friend and husband. 

The problem I am having is that a little over a year ago someone you barely knew, actually did not know at all, replaced 
me as your best friend.

If he would have said yes, he would have replaced me as your as your husband.


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## clipclop2

That message is all about the betrayer. It would anger me to no end, especially the language. It is an assault o on the betrayed. It is angry. 

I would not sit there and listen to them feel sorry for themselves while assaulting my ears with profanity and self pity.


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## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> this is from last night....i always call her out quickly if I feel that she is sounding selfish, because she told me yesterday she "hates it when I feel bad about the cheating, hates it when I get distanced from her" and as you can see she took off on me yesterday with this, I told her I didnt want to hear that tone and attitude again...she apologized later...


If believe it has 2 angles
1.she had been selfish comparing your pain with hers, very selfish considering all u have done and things she did and said after dday. Very selfish u should think about that if you think she wont change her attitude after u decide to stay. 
2. It is been so long and u r not getting better so she is begining to get tyred of trying.

Well R is not for everybody not even her as it seems. 

I think u should wait as u planed but be prepare for leaving.
Do u think u will be able accep her new partner once divorsed? Maybe the om once out of jale. Could u bear it?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## LongWalk

ClipClop is right on about the language. This attitude of hers is childish and aggressive. What do you need that for?


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## Suspecting2014

CBT

I just read again your 2 threads and I would like to point some facts, also I would like to up front apology if I am wrong or it is not accurate.

Among other I believe there are 3 main facts:

1.	You are plan B, she did chose u, OM dumped. So you cant forgive her.

2.	You love her.

3.	She is in pain, is her fault 100% and it is not compare of what you have been trough but she is in terrible pain.

IMO there are things that she could be doing better but is not:

She should do, at least the same she did to OM, e.g. Be her best looking for you, You need to ask her for that.

Her parents attitude, I believe she must have a talk to her parents, explain that you are in pain for her fault and that they really need to support you to heal.

Could be dopamine of whatever but she has a lack of initiative and a hurry to rug sweep. She just wants to be like before ASAP!

From all above I think you have 3 options:

1.	Learn to forgive and improve yourself so you can be with her and make her turn you into Plan A.

2.	Even scores (RA) this is bad idea not only because the damage will be bigger but maybe you can be more open to forgive her (I believe you cant). But maybe if divorce her but still be together you can feel better and more in control. Later if thing go well you can remarry, new vowels, etc.

3.	Leave, just move on and stop this pain for you, her and your kids. You should be ready to have new partners in your life and hers.

If you are not doing nothing to forgive her, maybe you don’t want to forgiver her, I believe you are losing your time waiting until end of the year.

I apology again if my words are wrong or not accurate.

Good luck


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## phillybeffandswiss

No offense, but a differing opinion. I agree with cliclop assessment,it is all about her. 

She did cheat, but she also has a right to get angry. Sorry, I know, cheaters must turn off all emotions and not lash out because they are now subhuman. If you believe this you need to leave. 

I do not know what led to the tirade. I do not know what you said, with context, that might have set her off. For all I know, you rode her hard that week or for multiple hours and she lashed out. I am not saying it is right at all and she could have said it much better. I'm not blaming you because you have a right to be angry. To me, she sounds enraged which lends a tint of credibility to her comments.

She's right in one thing, you will never know, if true about her self loathing, how she feels about what she did. *NEVER.* You will eventually have to trust her pain as true or leave if you can't. Neither decision is right or wrong, but you have to do whats best for you. Look past the rage in her comments and see what's behind the words. If they feel to selfish, then it is time to go.


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## clipclop2

This is why I could never get over it. They have made it impossible to trust them, even their actions, because they will shift with the wind to put the wind at THEIR back. Just because you happen to be the wind this time doesn't make the shift about the marriage or commitment or love. It is the most beneficial thing for them. You are just the current vehicle.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

sorry I should have replied sooner, as always totally great feedback and I like to post some answers on some points



Mr Blunt said:


> You say that you love her. If that is true and you want to R then you are going to have to accept taking one in the AZZ! There is no fairness in infidelity. She shyt on you and you both have to pay the price weather you R or D.


thanks for all that Mr Blunt, really helpful and you are correct in that accepting the betrayal "up the azz" as you say is perhaps the hardest thing for me to accept and move on.....you couldnt have said it better....if one cannot accept this does that mean it was a dealbreaker? or is there hope of accepting it for what it is and one point in time?



clipclop2 said:


> I would not sit there and listen to them feel sorry for themselves while assaulting my ears with profanity and self pity.


I told her something very similar to this and she apologized and told me she wouldnt do that again, will see if she lives up to that....



Suspecting2014 said:


> Do u think u will be able accept her new partner once divorced? Maybe the om once out of jail. Could u bear it?]


its hard for me to imagine her with someone else if we D....however it would be even more incredibly difficult for me to see another man fathering my children and be around them....i am saying this because this is one of the things that keeps me away from a decision to D.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

also I told her yesterday I was only waiting until the end of this year and would decide then to stay, separate or divorce.

she was very sad and broken down as expected, she doesnt think is enough time as she sees that I have made little progress for a year and doesnt believe I will be in a much better place by end of year.....
she crawled into a corner in our room and was crying quietly for a long time....saying it was over, how horrible she was, how we were going to lose the house, everything we had, how the children would be affected, they will hate her once they find out, etc, etc....
Eventually I gave in thou, I consoled her and told her to let things run their course and hope for the best....not for anything but I dont enjoy seen someone broken down like that, is just not in me really. She did plead for forgiveness on a very begging manner and I have to say it did touch me unlike anything previous for some reason
I am keeping very aware of not falling in for crying and pleading but I have no reason to think she is not being honest about her feelings, I just think she gets a glimpse of what divorce means and her world falls apart in it very quickly...

the thing for me is healing myself now if I am to make it thru this and stay in this marriage.....but I feel like at the same time I do not wish to ignore all my feelings, some which are screaming dealbreaker....I wish not to empower them but not ignore them completely either. is that wrong? will that just prevent healing of any kind regardless of staying or not?

as far as her, I dont think I expect anything more from her that she isnt already doing, but I will keep judging her a lot more by actions than by words. I will backoff confronting her so frequently and avoiding the breakdowns. But she will have to help along with the triggers and the reminders....


----------



## LongWalk

Good post. If you feel sorry for her, you can console her. Hiding your feelings is dishonest. It also suggests that you are afraid of being kind.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## clipclop2

Why not get her to address the things which she hasn't yet?


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> also I told her yesterday I was only waiting until the end of this year and would decide then to stay, separate or divorce.
> 
> she was very sad and broken down as expected, she doesnt think is enough time as she sees that I have made little progress for a year and doesnt believe I will be in a much better place by end of year.....
> she crawled into a corner in our room and was crying quietly for a long time....saying it was over, how horrible she was, how we were going to lose the house, everything we had, how the children would be affected, they will hate her once they find out, etc, etc....
> Eventually I gave in thou, I consoled her and told her to let things run their course and hope for the best....not for anything but I dont enjoy seen someone broken down like that, is just not in me really. She did plead for forgiveness on a very begging manner and I have to say it did touch me unlike anything previous for some reason
> I am keeping very aware of not falling in for crying and pleading but I have no reason to think she is not being honest about her feelings, I just think she gets a glimpse of what divorce means and her world falls apart in it very quickly...
> 
> the thing for me is healing myself now if I am to make it thru this and stay in this marriage.....but I feel like at the same time I do not wish to ignore all my feelings, some which are screaming dealbreaker....I wish not to empower them but not ignore them completely either. is that wrong? will that just prevent healing of any kind regardless of staying or not?
> 
> as far as her, I dont think I expect anything more from her that she isnt already doing, but I will keep judging her a lot more by actions than by words. I will backoff confronting her so frequently and avoiding the breakdowns. But she will have to help along with the triggers and the reminders....


Q: do you want to forgive her?

If yes could you?

IMO this are the most important questions you should ask your self.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> sorry I should have replied sooner, as always totally great feedback and I like to post some answers on some points
> 
> 
> 
> thanks for all that Mr Blunt, really helpful and you are correct in that accepting the betrayal "up the azz" as you say is perhaps the hardest thing for me to accept and move on.....you couldnt have said it better....if one cannot accept this does that mean it was a dealbreaker? or is there hope of accepting it for what it is and one point in time?
> You will always be the father, dont worry about that. Of course the new guy would play a big roll in their lifes. The discipline and guidence would always be on you, just make that clear
> 
> 
> 
> I told her something very similar to this and she apologized and told me she wouldnt do that again, will see if she lives up to that....
> 
> 
> 
> its hard for me to imagine her with someone else if we D....however it would be even more incredibly difficult for me to see another man fathering my children and be around them....i am saying this because this is one of the things that keeps me away from a decision to D.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## warlock07

The whole situation is heart breaking..It is tough to see someone you love break down so much, even if they are one that caused it.


----------



## turnera

IS she doing everything humanly possible to help you get over this? Total transparency, answers all questions whenever you want, going to therapy with you, total honesty, telling her family what she did and asking their forgiveness for hurting you, offer to take a polygraph...?


----------



## CantBelieveThis

turnera said:


> IS she doing everything humanly possible to help you get over this? Total transparency, answers all questions whenever you want, going to therapy with you, total honesty, telling her family what she did and asking their forgiveness for hurting you, offer to take a polygraph...?


pretty much, thou she didnt offer polygraph, I brought that up and she didnt like the idea one bit even thou said that she would do it....but everything else yea, however, not to say
there havent been instances with heated debates and disagreements about how some of those actions have been arrived at....not smooth sailing but not totally unexpected either...
And you know the crazy thing is am getting tired of keep asking her for stuff, like is making me feel am too dependent on her for my own recovery....


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Suspecting2014 said:


> Q: do you want to forgive her?*Yes, I do and I want to keep my family together*
> 
> If yes could you? *I dont know, thats the f'ing problem!!*
> 
> IMO this are the most important questions you should ask your self.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Openminded

You're a kind person. Don't be manipulated by begging and pleading and crying. Men are often torn apart by women's tears. Don't think women aren't aware of that. Along with sex, tears can be used to get what they want. Not all women do that but some do. Just something to remember.


----------



## bandit.45

CantBelieveThis said:


> pretty much, thou she didnt offer polygraph, I brought that up and she didnt like the idea one bit even thou said that she would do it....but everything else yea, however, not to say
> there havent been instances with heated debates and disagreements about how some of those actions have been arrived at....not smooth sailing but not totally unexpected either...
> And you know the crazy thing is am getting tired of keep asking her for stuff, like is making me feel am too dependent on her for my own recovery....


You know at some point, whether you stay with her or not, you need to take some responsibility for your own healing. From where I stand, I think she is drained. I think she is giving you as much as she can... for now. You're trying to squeeze blood from a turnip and getting nowhere. 

If you're going to divorce her then fvcking file for god's sake. Quit torturing her. Just do it and quit saying you're going to do it. 

You know maybe you need to kill this marriage and go through with D, then just date her and see if the two of you can build something new.


----------



## bandit.45

Openminded said:


> You're a kind person. Don't be manipulated by begging and pleading and crying. Men are often torn apart by women's tears. Don't think women aren't aware of that. Along with sex, tears can be used to get what they want. Not all women do that but some do. Just something to remember.


Sheesh. We bust waywards for not being remorseful, then when they show remorse we say they're faking it! Damn people, what the hell do you want? 

I've seen a lot of these. I don't think that's what's happening here.


----------



## Openminded

bandit.45 said:


> Sheesh. We bust waywards for not being remorseful, then when they show remorse we say they're faking it! Damn people, what the hell do you want?
> 
> I've seen a lot of these. I don't think that's what's happening here.


I'm cautioning him to be careful under the circumstances and not be swayed by tears, etc. Neither of us know whether she's remorseful or not. Hopefully, she is. The real question is whether he can forgive her even if she gives it everything she's got. And right now he doesn't know.


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## clipclop2

If she is reluctant to take a poly you know there is more.

Formulate your questions. Take your time. Then decide if she passes to question no more. If you cannot do that then end the marriage. 

It is not a failing on your part. It can end now or in5 more years. Totally up to you. But this is your life and her life and if you know based on your experience that you cannot forgive be honest with yourself and do the right thing. 

It is ok. You will both survive. Probably better than you have since she wrecked your marriage.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> Originally Posted by Mr Blunt
> You say that you love her. If that is true and you want to R then you are going to have to accept taking one in the AZZ! There is no fairness in infidelity. She shyt on you and you both have to pay the price weather you R or D.
> 
> *By--Cantbelievethis*
> thanks for all that Mr Blunt, really helpful and you are correct in that accepting the betrayal "up the azz" as you say is perhaps the hardest thing for me to accept and move on.....you couldnt have said it better....if one cannot accept this does that mean it was a dealbreaker? or is there hope of accepting it for what it is and one point in time?




You can accept it if you make up your mind and diligently seek out every recourse that you can. You are going to have to get tougher, more determined, and take more actions even if you do not want to because R is very hard and takes a long time. IF you think that you, your wife, and we here at TAM are going to be enough then you are fooling yourself or trying to avoid going 100% after other recourses and doing some things you may not want to do.



According to you your wife really is remorseful and is doing everything possible that is within her power. That means that you need to stop looking to her for your advancing in getting better with what is bothering you about what she did to you; the betrayal, total disrespect, and humiliation. That is why I asked you in my last post the questions below that you did not answer. *Do you care to answer?*


*
What actions have you takes to get better? 
What actions have you taken to start the forgiveness part?*


You cannot allow yourself to stew in your hurt emotions over being betrayed, disrespected, and humiliated. You have to decide if you are going to take one in the AZZ or not. If you are going to take one then what do you think about what I said in my last post to you (see reprint below)

Fo


> rget about her parents and stop expecting them to help you. *This situation is up to you, your recourses that you get and utilize, and your God*



It is not fair that you have to take one in the AZZ and do a LOT to get better. However, who ever said that life is fair? *You have to do what you have to do so that YOU CAN GET BETTER!!!! *That is reality


----------



## GusPolinski

bandit.45 said:


> You know at some point, whether you stay with her or not, you need to take some responsibility for your own healing. From where I stand, I think she is drained. I think she is giving you as much as she can... for now. You're trying to squeeze blood from a turnip and getting nowhere.
> 
> If you're going to divorce her then fvcking file for god's sake. Quit torturing her. Just do it and quit saying you're going to do it.
> 
> You know maybe you need to kill this marriage and go through with D, then just date her and see if the two of you can build something new.





bandit.45 said:


> Sheesh. We bust waywards for not being remorseful, then when they show remorse we say they're faking it! Damn people, what the hell do you want?
> 
> I've seen a lot of these. I don't think that's what's happening here.


:iagree:


----------



## workindad

Op is part of your issue that you are unsure of what else she may be hiding from you? If you are the type that needs to know everything that you are being asked to forgive and accept then this may be the case. 

She has agreed to a poly. Schedule one. Get a complete timeline from her and tell her this is a step you are taking to try to heal. You may find out that you know everything already you may also find out more. However this should provide some insight that may help you to move forward one way or the other. If that happens it would be money well spent. 

Keep in mind your children are watching learning and listening. I am not sure if they saw their mom in a corner crying but I certainly hope not. If you can't move past this then file and move on. However if you want to try to save the marriage then it will require commitment and work on your end as well. 

I wish you and your family peace.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## warlock07

It is hard thing to exactly find out what she was crying about. 

Losing her family like she knew it ?

How it affects the kids ?

Financial issues ? 

Losing you ?

Shame at divorcing after what she did (Was she exposed among mutual friend and parents) and explaining it to them ?

Shame because what she bet on turned out to be a damp squib and she ended up being a spectacular trainwreck ?



If you are going for a poly, what do you plan to ask her ?


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Mr Blunt said:


> *
> What actions have you takes to get better?
> What actions have you taken to start the forgiveness part?*
> 
> 
> You cannot allow yourself to stew in your hurt emotions over being betrayed, disrespected, and humiliated. You have to decide if you are going to take one in the AZZ or not. If you are going to take one then what do you think about what I said in my last post to you (see reprint below)
> 
> 
> 
> Well for me I do work out regularly, have read plenty of books about infidelity, have ramped up on my hobby....probably should hang out with my buddies more, a little weak in that area...
> But to your point, and you made me realize this, I dont think I have done a dam thing to start forgiving her....I am so stuck on just accepting the betrayal and you are 100% I do spend a lot of time stewing over it.....this is why I keep wondering if being stuck on acceptance is a sign that it was a dealbreaker...
> 
> And yes we did IC and MC months ago, but honestly we didnt find it too helpful at all....I know I can look for better counseling but in the end I wonder how much will a couple of sessions a week help...but perhaps is a risk worth taking
Click to expand...


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

I wonder if the thing that you are having the hardest time dealing with is tha fact that she didn't stop the affair on her own. The OM stopped when he went off to the pokey. Then she all of a sudden realizes that it's you she want's to be with, not him.

I know this would be the tallest hurdle in my way of trying to R and forgive.

She came back only after the Om left her. The next time she starts getting upset about you not knowing whether you want to stay married to her, I would ask her ask her this(In a calm voice with a non-threatening tone).

*If we stay married, how do I know that you will never cheat on me again?*(She says something like "I'll never hurt you that way again.")

*Why did you do it?*(I'm pretty sure that she will say she doesn't know for sure...)

*If you don't know why you did it, how can you say that you'll never do it again?*(She's probably going to break down a little at this point. Just tell her that you never want to be put through this hell again. If she wants to stay married to you, she's going to have to help you see why it should be so.)

You're dealing with a lot. If you're going to get through this AND remain married to her, she HAS to pitch in more.

With what, I'm not exactly sure, but it has to come from her. Her just breaking down, curling into a ball and sobbing isn't doing you any good. Tell her that she needs to take this bull by the horns, or you'll continue to slip away from her.


----------



## Mr Blunt

> What actions have you takes to get better?
> What actions have you taken to start the forgiveness part?
> 
> 
> You cannot allow yourself to stew in your hurt emotions over being betrayed, disrespected, and humiliated. You have to decide if you are going to take one in the AZZ or not. If you are going to take one then what do you think about what I said in my last post to you (see reprint below)
> 
> 
> Well for me I do work out regularly, have read plenty of books about infidelity, have ramped up on my hobby....probably should hang out with my buddies more, a little weak in that area...
> But to your point, and you made me realize this, I dont think I have done a dam thing to start forgiving her....I am so stuck on just accepting the betrayal and you are 100% I do spend a lot of time stewing over it.....this is why I keep wondering if being stuck on acceptance is a sign that it was a dealbreaker...
> 
> And yes we did IC and MC months ago, but honestly we didnt find it too helpful at all....I know I can look for better counseling but in the end I wonder how much will a couple of sessions a week help...but perhaps is a risk worth taking


Work outs, books, and hobby are very good for the body and to take your mind off the betrayal. However, as you have stated the acceptance and forgiveness are the big ones right now.

What is your faith? Most faiths deal with forgiveness and divorce. With forgiveness it is not mandatory that you R. Forgiveness is to set YOU free of negative emotions no mater if you decide to R or D. *Since your big mountain is forgiveness what have you done about using your faith as a resource?*

*Have you found a person or a group that has years of forgiveness behind them and are successful?* They can help but you have to do your part. A good counselor can pinpoint the steps that you need to take but you will have to decide if you want to forgive and R or forgive and D. No one can decide that except you.


----------



## carmen ohio

Dear CBT,

A few days ago, Suspecting2014 suggested several alternatives for you to consider:



> 1. Learn to forgive and improve yourself so you can be with her and make her turn you into Plan A.
> 
> 2. Even scores (RA) this is bad idea not only because the damage will be bigger but maybe you can be more open to forgive her (I believe you cant). But maybe if divorce her but still be together you can feel better and more in control. Later if thing go well you can remarry, new vowels, etc.
> 
> 3. Leave, just move on and stop this pain for you, her and your kids. You should be ready to have new partners in your life and hers.


There are, however, less drastic steps you can take in order to break out of the emotional limbo in which you find yourself.

Suspecting2014's advice and much of what you are feeling is based on the false assumption that you are powerless to change your mental state. But, unless and until you change your thinking you will remain in limbo. In fact, there are many things things you could do to improve your situation and hence your emotional state without making any decision -- for now -- about your marriage.

For example, you could change careers, take up a new and exciting activity, dedicate a portion of your time to helping others, or begin a serious self-improvement program. The purpose of such action would be three-fold. First, to give you something to look forward to regardless of what you eventually decide to do about your marriage. Second, to introduce a new element in your life that is independent of what your fWW did or is (or is not) doing, thereby freeing you on a regular basis to focus on something else. Third, and perhaps most importantly, to improve your self-esteem. An added benefit is that it would take some of the pressure off your fWW, allowing her to deal better with her own demons and allowing you to see her in a new, better (or worse) light.

I am reminded of another BH, DevastatedDad, who did exactly this. DD took up flying and while, based on his last posts, he was still struggling with his fWW's infidelity, he found a measure of peace and managed to keep his family together.

Here's the point: you can't change the past but you have it within your power to _change your future_. You can make small changes or major changes, but any change you make will give you fresh insights into who you are and what you want out of life. Or you can continue to twist in the wind and allow circumstances and others decide your future. The choice is yours. It always has been. You just need to act. If you do, I promise, you will be surprised by the result. Eventually, you will find it much easier to decide what to do about your marriage and you will be more comfortable making a decision either to stay with your fWW or to leave her.

My advice is to act now and boldly.


----------



## Suspecting2014

CBT, 

IMO you need to find the way to forgiverher, I know is easyer telling than doing but IMO this is the way to step out limbo.

Even if stay or go you need to let it go.

Imporve your self, do excersice I, find a hobby, etc.
I agree with Carmen you really need to better your selfsteem, when you do that everything will seems diferent, it happened to me.

IMO, as i said before, you really need to give her a break! 

I know
She is where she put her self, you have been very generous for giving her each day after she decided to stay and it seems she is trying the best she can.
But
You are not getting anywhere, not healing, not forgiving, and still you love her. And she is in pain...

Why you just give her one great day, act like you alredyforgive her, be very gent and loving, plan something special, etc. just play that rolle for a day so you can see her gloing and you get your self a clue of waht could be like...just one special day


----------



## Paladin

@CBT

I know I've brought this up before, and please forgive me for sounding like a broken record, but if you two are not in active individual an couples counseling right now, you are not doing everything possible to resolve this situation. The money you would end up wasting on a polygraph would serve you 100% better if you spend it on counseling. These issues are big, and you need more help than you can get here on TAM.

Also, don't take this the wrong way, but posting what she writes privately to you in a public forum seems wrong to me for some reason. Im sure you can summarize the important information for TAM without actually posting the stuff she writes to you.

Most responders here have been civil, but I want to caution against trying to invalidate his feelings or hers. It is tempting to say "she cheated, this is her fault, so she doesn't get to feel X, Y, or Z" but in the real world, fair or not, she will have feelings of loss, guilt, sadness, anger, etc.. and those feelings can complicate the R process to a great degree, especially if they are ignored, attacked, or invalidated. 

I think you two have a shot at making it through this and building a healthy marriage, but I can't stress enough how important it is for you two to be in counseling right now. Make it happen, and you will see an exponential improvement in the situation, guaranteed.


----------



## turnera

Paladin said:


> @CBT
> 
> I know I've brought this up before, and please forgive me for sounding like a broken record, but if you two are not in active individual an couples counseling right now, you are not doing everything possible to resolve this situation. The money you would end up wasting on a polygraph would serve you 100% better if you spend it on counseling. These issues are big, and you need more help than you can get here on TAM.


QFT.

You have to try on a few counselors to get the right fit, sometimes. They are just people, after all. And you'll NEVER fix this marriage without it.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Paladin said:


> Also, don't take this the wrong way, but posting what she writes privately to you in a public forum seems wrong to me for some reason. Im sure you can summarize the important information for TAM without actually posting the stuff she writes to you.


I can understand this and I always did feel a bit awkward in doing so but I wanted to convey the message exactly as it was given and considering it was totally anonymous...but I will refrain from now and have also deleted them so they are no longer visible...thanks for honest feedback.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

well things have taken a twist lately...I never mentioned this but my 14 yr old daughter has had mental illness for many years and she tried to kill herself a couple years ago (tried to OD on her own meds).
Well she started HS this year and just a few days ago her "boyfriend" left her and she has been very depressed and irritable. Last night my W and her had it out big time, I did intervene because they got somewhat into a physical fight, but the worse part was when she called my W a "wh0re"...W has been totally devastated since, because our daughter knows .what happened (not details, just that she cheated on me)

W is a bad shape right now, she told me what she is getting is karma for what she did to our marriage. I told her this affects me too as the father so is not just about her. She is very hurt that her daughter shows so much anger at her and is not taking it well. We are still in the process of finding the right MC....but now we need to focus on our daughter too because obviously we are worried she can try to hurt herself again (thou she is on meds now , unlike before, she is also on weekly IC for couple years too)

anyways, a little off track from infidelity but just feel like in a deep hole right now. We are a catholic but dont go to church much, but last night I thought about how much things suck right now, but instead, and for the first time in years, I prayed and I prayed thanking the lord for what we have, rather for how bad things are....I thanked the lord for the fact we are all healthy (relatively speaking), are financially in good shape, are still together all of us....and that things could still be worse....I didnt ask god for anything, all I felt that I needed to do was be thankful for those things we do have......

the pain from her betrayal still there, none of this changes that one bit.....helping my daughter is the most important thing right now, but am also seeing how the W is also in ugly place.


----------



## jim123

CantBelieveThis said:


> well things have taken a twist lately...I never mentioned this but my 14 yr old daughter has had mental illness for many years and she tried to kill herself a couple years ago (tried to OD on her own meds).
> Well she started HS this year and just a few days ago her "boyfriend" left her and she has been very depressed and irritable. Last night my W and her had it out big time, I did intervene because they got somewhat into a physical fight, but the worse part was when she called my W a "wh0re"...W has been totally devastated since, because our daughter knows .what happened (not details, just that she cheated on me)
> 
> W is a bad shape right now, she told me what she is getting is karma for what she did to our marriage. I told her this affects me too as the father so is not just about her. She is very hurt that her daughter shows so much anger at her and is not taking it well. We are still in the process of finding the right MC....but now we need to focus on our daughter too because obviously we are worried she can try to hurt herself again (thou she is on meds now , unlike before, she is also on weekly IC for couple years too)
> 
> anyways, a little off track from infidelity but just feel like in a deep hole right now. We are a catholic but dont go to church much, but last night I thought about how much things suck right now, but instead, and for the first time in years, I prayed and I prayed thanking the lord for what we have, rather for how bad things are....I thanked the lord for the fact we are all healthy (relatively speaking), are financially in good shape, are still together all of us....and that things could still be worse....I didnt ask god for anything, all I felt that I needed to do was be thankful for those things we do have......
> 
> the pain from her betrayal still there, none of this changes that one bit.....helping my daughter is the most important thing right now, but am also seeing how the W is also in ugly place.


Do not do any MC at this point. It is very important that your DD and WW get IC. My guess is if your DD has mental illness, so does your WW.


----------



## Openminded

Infidelity obviously affects the family and not just the spouse. My father cheated on my mother over fifty years ago and she stayed for me. The problem was I never forgave him. Up to that point, I was much closer to him than to her but that changed the moment I found out he had cheated. 

Your wife has discovered children don't always forgive quickly (or sometimes maybe not at all).


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> well things have taken a twist lately...I never mentioned this but my 14 yr old daughter has had mental illness for many years and she tried to kill herself a couple years ago (tried to OD on her own meds).
> Well she started HS this year and just a few days ago her "boyfriend" left her and she has been very depressed and irritable. Last night my W and her had it out big time, I did intervene because they got somewhat into a physical fight, but the worse part was when she called my W a "wh0re"...W has been totally devastated since, because our daughter knows .what happened (not details, just that she cheated on me)
> 
> W is a bad shape right now, she told me what she is getting is karma for what she did to our marriage. I told her this affects me too as the father so is not just about her. She is very hurt that her daughter shows so much anger at her and is not taking it well. We are still in the process of finding the right MC....but now we need to focus on our daughter too because obviously we are worried she can try to hurt herself again (thou she is on meds now , unlike before, she is also on weekly IC for couple years too)
> 
> anyways, a little off track from infidelity but just feel like in a deep hole right now. We are a catholic but dont go to church much, but last night I thought about how much things suck right now, but instead, and for the first time in years, I prayed and I prayed thanking the lord for what we have, rather for how bad things are....I thanked the lord for the fact we are all healthy (relatively speaking), are financially in good shape, are still together all of us....and that things could still be worse....I didnt ask god for anything, all I felt that I needed to do was be thankful for those things we do have......
> 
> the pain from her betrayal still there, none of this changes that one bit.....helping my daughter is the most important thing right now, but am also seeing how the W is also in ugly place.


Well your wife is still harvesting what she seeded.

The problem is that the effect her affair has bring into you D is going to stay for a long time. She should get IC pronto.

Your D must realise that what her mom did was wrong, not something to be ok doing. Also, sorry but this is on you, she must learn that if someone cheated on her is not OK to stay in the relation and being really unhappy without doing nothing (try to get better, leave), just stock!

Kids are affected by the environment, wife crying, you unhappy, etc. Even if you hide it they always know something is wrong.

IMO this is a break point for you past behavior. You need to start forgiving your wife (learn to do it, there plenty of info on internet, church, etc, what it takes) or leaving an move on.

IMO you should be an example to your kids and keep them from toxic environment.

You should get more info from your D IC once she goes.

Ask your other kids whats is their hearts as well, maybe they will need help too, dont wait until other breakdown happens.

I apology for my comments, it is not my will to offend you in any way.


----------



## Suspecting2014

My best wishes for your D.

The sons pain is the worst a parent has to bear!


----------



## harrybrown

Sorry about all the pain.

Affairs are the pain that keep on giving and giving.

Has your W figured that out yet?

hope you get to a good place soon. ( you and your family)


----------



## Cre8ify

> for the first time in years, I prayed and I prayed thanking the lord for what we have, rather for how bad things are....I thanked the lord for the fact we are all healthy (relatively speaking), are financially in good shape, are still together all of us....and that things could still be worse....I didnt ask god for anything, all I felt that I needed to do was be thankful for those things we do have.


Wherever it goes from here...outcomes be what they may...going on faith is a sturdy way to go. Peace brother, you are an exceptional man.


----------



## Welsh15

http://www.amazon.com/How-Can-Forgive-You-Courage/dp/0060009314

CBT, I just ordered this book. I am hoping it can help me and maybe you. I already read the one below, it was excellent. I hope this onje helps me. I am exactly 1 year from Dday, with a WW doing all the right things but having trouble forgiving her. Maybe just not ready. She shows true remorse but it is still hard to forgive as it still hurts so much. Hang in there.

http://www.amazon.com/After-Affair-Healing-Rebuilding-Unfaithful/dp/0062122703/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y


----------



## sammy3

Welsh15 said:


> http://www.amazon.com/How-Can-Forgive-You-Courage/dp/0060009314
> 
> CBT, I just ordered this book. I am hoping it can help me and maybe you. I already read the one below, it was excellent. I hope this onje helps me. I am exactly 1 year from Dday, with a WW doing all the right things but having trouble forgiving her. Maybe just not ready. She shows true remorse but it is still hard to forgive as it still hurts so much. Hang in there.
> 
> After the Affair: Healing the Pain and Rebuilding Trust When a Partner Has Been Unfaithful, 2nd Edition: Janis A. Spring: 9780062122704: Amazon.com: Books



Excellent book, I just finished it this summer. I am 3 + years out, and tried to read this book 6 month after DdAy. Impossible ... 
It helped "me" a lot after reading now... I probably will not be successful in R with my h, but at least I am trying to learn and do all I can to forgive and not live a bitter life towards him. 
I think this is where in R both ww and bs need to come together, as forgiveness doesn't mean the all is forgiven and the relationship is back... 

-sammy


----------



## Suspecting2014

CBT how r u doing?

Hows your D doing?

I just found this post in another thread



> 3 Ways to Erase Post-Affair Anger
> Cheated On, Tortured by Images
> Feeding the Affair-Image Beast
> Erase Obsessive Affair Images (in 30 Minutes)


----------



## CantBelieveThis

she is schedule for IC to start next week....the counselor sounded pretty good on the phone so I have my hopes in check....she is definitely pro-marriage and more on the faith side of things but nonetheless she definitely knew about infidelity....

However....there is more to my story i have left out....couple days ago she was giving me grief about going to IC so that via some introversion she can get to the deep root of why she did this....and she is very concerned about her past sexual abuse factoring into her infidelity, she is terrified of even talking about this topic with the counselor

yes I know i never mentioned this and perhaps I should of, she was sexually abused several times by her older cousin when she was 10, I knew this going into marriage but no one except her mom, dad and I know that this happened years ago.....anyways, thru fits and cries she agreed to go to IC but again is terrified of this topic. She always told me she doesnt believe that her cheating had anything to do with her past sexual abuse, at least consciously, so she has never really used it as an excuse

so...is her concern valid? is there a clear linkage between sexual abuse and infidelity in studies or things like that?


----------



## jim123

CantBelieveThis said:


> she is schedule for IC to start next week....the counselor sounded pretty good on the phone so I have my hopes in check....she is definitely pro-marriage and more on the faith side of things but nonetheless she definitely knew about infidelity....
> 
> However....there is more to my story i have left out....couple days ago she was giving me grief about going to IC so that via some introversion she can get to the deep root of why she did this....and she is very concerned about her past sexual abuse factoring into her infidelity, she is terrified of even talking about this topic with the counselor
> 
> yes I know i never mentioned this and perhaps I should of, she was sexually abused several times by her older cousin when she was 10, I knew this going into marriage but no one except her mom, dad and I know that this happened years ago.....anyways, thru fits and cries she agreed to go to IC but again is terrified of this topic. She always told me she doesnt believe that her cheating had anything to do with her past sexual abuse, at least consciously, so she has never really used it as an excuse
> 
> so...is her concern valid? is there a clear linkage between sexual abuse and infidelity in studies or things like that?



there is a connection between the two


----------



## 2xloser

How can she know if there is or there isn't a connection if she won't talk about it with someone trained on getting to the bottom of her issues and at least explore the possibility?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rober...-reasons-for-female-infidelity_b_1936934.html


----------



## Paladin

Survivors of sexual abuse are way more likely to suffer from a range of mental health issues. There are strong correlations between mental health problems and things like infidelity, drug abuse, and other very broken coping mechanisms. 

She has to address this issue with a counselor, and preferably by one that has a background in sexual abuse. What complicates this issue for your situation is the fact that there is a link between sexual abuse and infidelity, but they must not be conflated into one lump problem. Unfortunately for you, the possibility that your wife's mental health is too damaged to help you heal and recover from infidelity is very likely. You will be responsible for the bulk of your healing until she resolves enough of the past abuse issues to actually help in the process. You two wont be able to effectively work on your marriage until she addresses this.


----------



## turnera

Find her some research. Like this:


> Early childhood trauma and/or sexual abuse often lead women (and men) in adult life to problems with addictive sex and/or serial cheating. Such women repeatedly seek emotional intensity rather than relational intimacy. Women with unresolved childhood trauma as well as those with emotional instability -- women who carry an uneven and disjointed sense of self -- can seek consistency and feelings of importance through intensity-based romantic and/or sexual activity.


Why Women Cheat: 5 Reasons For Female InfidelityÂ*|Â*Robert Weiss

And this one is super indepth.
https://ritualabuse.us/research/sex...al-abuse-affects-interpersonal-relationships/

So yes, there is a clear link between abuse and cheating, and many other issues. And the only way to FIX that stuff is with a good psychologist who specializes in this.

Tell her it WILL be scary, and hard, but at the end of it, she'll finally be free of all that weight she's been carrying around.


----------



## Openminded

Letting go of the burden is obviously easier than carrying it. It weighs a ton. 

Children tend to blame themselves (I did). She'll be glad she went once it's dealt with.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Paladin said:


> Survivors of sexual abuse are way more likely to suffer from a range of mental health issues. There are strong correlations between mental health problems and things like infidelity, drug abuse, and other very broken coping mechanisms.


but thats the thing thou, for the 18 years I have known her before this she never showed any type of mental issues or anything like that, ever...until the affair. she always told me she buried the sexual abuse stuff away and never thought of it anymore so I never believe it was ever affecting her, guess it just took the right conditions for it to bubble up perhaps?


----------



## Squeakr

CantBelieveThis said:


> but thats the thing thou, for the 18 years I have known her before this she never showed any type of mental issues or anything like that, ever...until the affair. she always told me she buried the sexual abuse stuff away and never thought of it anymore so I never believe it was ever affecting her, guess it just took the right conditions for it to bubble up perhaps?


Or which might be more the case, that it was always there and you just were missing tyne signs and wrote it off a sheer human nature. Like with infidelity, the signs were usually all there early on, but having never dealt with we always dismissed them until it was no longer possibly to do so (meaning we had all the proof and evidence slapping us in the face). When we look back now we see it clearly. Hindsight is always 20/20.


----------



## aug

CantBelieveThis said:


> but thats the thing thou, for the 18 years I have known her before this she never showed any type of mental issues or anything like that, ever...until the affair. she always told me she buried the sexual abuse stuff away and never thought of it anymore so I never believe it was ever affecting her, guess it just took the right conditions for it to bubble up perhaps?



It's whatever excuse she can dredge up to make you feel compassion for her and her cheating. But the bottom line remains that she made the decision to cheat.

Surely, not every CSA go on to cheat in adulthood.


----------



## Paladin

aug said:


> It's whatever excuse she can dredge up to make you feel compassion for her and her cheating. But the bottom line remains that she made the decision to cheat.
> 
> Surely, not every CSA go on to cheat in adulthood.


Try reading the thread before making comments. She did not bring it up as an excuse, he is asking about it because he wants to understand, and his questions are very relevant to this issue.


----------



## aug

CantBelieveThis said:


> However....there is more to my story i have left out....couple days ago she was giving me grief about going to IC so that via some introversion she can get to the deep root of why she did this....and *she is very concerned about her past sexual abuse factoring into her infidelity*, she is terrified of even talking about this topic with the counselor
> 
> yes I know i never mentioned this and perhaps I should of, she was sexually abused several times by her older cousin when she was 10, I knew this going into marriage but no one except her mom, dad and I know that this happened years ago.....*anyways, thru fits and cries she agreed to go to IC* but again is terrified of this topic. *She always told me she doesnt believe that her cheating had anything to do with her past sexual abuse, at least consciously, so she has never really used it as an excuse*





Paladin said:


> Try reading the thread before making comments. She did not bring it up as an excuse, he is asking about it because he wants to understand, and his questions are very relevant to this issue.



The way I read this was that she had IC to deal with her CSA long before her affair. So the CSA matter was addressed and dealt with. But now she's concerned that CSA may be a factor in her decision to have an affair.


----------



## phillybeffandswiss

aug said:


> The way I read this was that she had IC to deal with her CSA long before her affair. So the CSA matter was addressed and dealt with. But now she's concerned that CSA may be a factor in her decision to have an affair.


I read it this way as well. CSA is a touchy subject with a wide range of reactions. I don't believe it was an excuse, I'm not in their marriage so I can't be definite, but I'd be a liar if I didn't say it initially crossed my mind.


----------



## turnera

CantBelieveThis said:


> but thats the thing thou, for the 18 years I have known her before this she never showed any type of mental issues or anything like that, ever


Being one of those people, I'll tell you the secret. The secret is that we KEEP it a secret. It's always in the back of our mind but we never discuss it. We make sure nothing in our life ever touches on it. We have a GREAT image that we present.


----------



## Squeakr

Compartmentalization is a very powerful thing and many have this ability to just lock it away and forget about it. If they don't put themselves in that situation or focus on a point in the past to create the trigger to open that compartment, it can stay closed for virtually forever. My stbxw possesses this innate ability.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happyman64

CBT

I just wanted to say that I am glad you have stuck by your wife all these months.

There is no doubt that you love her.

There is a relationship between sexual abuse and infidelity.

Encourage your wife to be open with the psychologist. Encourage your wife to get at the root of her issues.

Keep working at it CBT.

HM


----------



## thummper

I know sometimes I sound like Polyanna, but your ww sounds so sincere in her remorse and desire to not lose you, if you think there is any chance you could forgive and move forward with her, I don't think you'd be sorry. Prediction is always risky, but I believe she is absolutely sincere in her desire to make it up to you. Just something to consider.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

so p1ssed right now all i see is RED....she went to her IC session and it was bullcrap all about her, how I didnt pay attention to her and how she was vulnerable, etc, etc....mind you this was "IC" for her to figure herself out!!! shoot me!!! 
just venting sorry, back to work for now, will be back later tonight....


----------



## 3Xnocharm

CantBelieveThis said:


> so p1ssed right now all i see is RED....she went to her IC session and it was bullcrap all about her, how I didnt pay attention to her and how she was vulnerable, etc, etc....mind you this was "IC" for her to figure herself out!!! shoot me!!!
> just venting sorry, back to work for now, will be back later tonight....


So, how do you know what went on if this was IC?


----------



## CantBelieveThis

She told me about it


----------



## Nucking Futs

CantBelieveThis said:


> She told me about it


Sounds like this IC is just the ticket to help her detach from you so she either cheats again or is ok with the divorce.


----------



## Ripper

CantBelieveThis said:


> she went to her IC session and it was bullcrap all about her, how I didnt pay attention to her and how she was vulnerable, etc, etc


More often than not, this is the case with most _modern_ therapists and counselors. Personal responsibility is an antiqued notion. Don't expect much better from a marriage counselor.

There is nothing *fair* about reconciling with someone who committed infidelity on you. If you stay in the marriage, their only real consequence is going to be feeling guilt/remorse (if they do). You have to accept that and move on for it to be successful. If not you will just become bitter and resentful. I couldn't do, but others have. They will be much better at helping you now that this is the path you have chosen. 

I'm bowing out now, I can't sit and watch another one of these episodes play out. Sorry this happened to you and I truly hope it all works out for the best.


----------



## turnera

Time to attend the next session with her and set the counselor straight.


----------



## 3putt

turnera said:


> Time to attend the next session with her and set the counselor straight.


Yep!!!


----------



## Sports Fan

Given what your wife has put you through you should feel no qualms about Divorce.

However this is easier said than done


----------



## thummper

CBT I just read your thread for the first time. I was puzzled when I kept seeing blacked-out areas where you were telling TAM what she had said that got you so worked up. Is there a reason why those areas were blanked? It would have been interesting and instructive to see what she said that had you so upset. Personally I feel terrible for your plight. It sounded as though your wife was truly sincere in her desire to make up for her affair and that she really loved you and didn't want to lose you. I hope to God that you can somehow save your marriage and your family. If not, I wish you and her the best for the future. Peace!


----------



## sammy3

CBT, 

This is what happen to me too. The MC kept on and on how I had to 'hear" him. He what he wasnt getting. Understand his pain, to learn how to listen... then he could hold my pain... WTF ????? What about listening to me first????? Hearing me first ???? 

I hate this. R is the worst, worst, worst route to go... It is lose, lose, lose all the way around for the bs as far as I see. Even with the most remorseful ww. 

~sammy


----------



## Paladin

sammy3 said:


> CBT,
> 
> This is what happen to me too. The MC kept on and on how I had to 'hear" him. He what he wasnt getting. Understand his pain, to learn how to listen... then he could hold my pain... WTF ????? What about listening to me first????? Hearing me first ????
> 
> I hate this. R is the worst, worst, worst route to go... It is lose, lose, lose all the way around for the bs as far as I see. Even with the most remorseful ww.
> 
> ~sammy



As a reconciled fBS I have a different outlook on this topic, I hope things improve for you too. Our marriage now is leaps and bounds better than it used to be. The work it takes to maintain and improve things is very rewarding, and something both of us enjoy.

Reconciliation is a difficult process and requires two willing participants. This process should not be all about either one of you, so if your counselor is making it that way, consider getting a new one, or bring up how you feel in the next session.


----------



## turnera

They will often do that when they sense that one person is less willing to be there - kind of kiss their butt, stroke their ego, to get them to stay a few more sessions, til they can get to the point of doing real work. Many people will bolt out of therapy if they feel they're being attacked. Sucks, but it's the truth.


----------



## treyvion

turnera said:


> They will often do that when they sense that one person is less willing to be there - kind of kiss their butt, stroke their ego, to get them to stay a few more sessions, til they can get to the point of doing real work. Many people will bolt out of therapy if they feel they're being attacked. Sucks, but it's the truth.


A WAS will usually not want to face the gravity of the situation, but for their to have been any chance they MUST face the gravity of the situation, go through pain, guilt and remorse.

If they remain as Teflon is, you will never have anything with them.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

sort of unnerving to realize they really did fall for all the bullcrap the AP was telling them and that was really all it ook, that words alone were enough to suck them up into the affair.....

we both spoke about this today and she admits she was in it totally for the flattery and the nice things he was saying...made me so mad but I kept my cool
I told her she had previous relationships before me, how could she not know that men showered women with nice words to get what they want? and she said "well is one thing to know that, but is different when you are caught up in it , you dont see it like that"

of course she quotes it with, now is "different" and she will never let it happen again...I asked her if her previous lovers didnt make her feel like that and she said not the same and that had been a long time ago.....

just more venting sorry, just amazes me that someone that was almost 40yo at the time didnt know that men would do those things to seduce a woman, I mean i think girls I knew in HS or college all knew that because it wasnt so easy for me!!

now i feel like having a deep conversation with my 14yo daughter and making sure she knows not to fall for the stupid kind words alone.....*curious how have others dealt with making your kids knowledgeable about how "players" work....and also passing awareness to them about infidelity *


----------



## bandit.45

Are you feeling alone in the marriage right now? Do you feel like your WW is invested?


----------



## turnera

CantBelieveThis said:


> now i feel like having a deep conversation with my 14yo daughter and making sure she knows not to fall for the stupid kind words alone.....*curious how have others dealt with making your kids knowledgeable about how "players" work....and also passing awareness to them about infidelity *


Most DEFINITELY tell DD14 that! I did. I taught her to just have fun (not that kind!) with boys in high school because nothing is going to come out of those high school romances. 

That it's a teenage boy's #1 drive to see how many girls he can get to have sex with, and he can and WILL say whatever he thinks you want to hear, to allow it. And even if he really thinks he's in love with you, he's too young to really know what that means, so you'll just get hurt.

To try guys on in college, to see what 'type' she's a good fit for, but not to get serious; after all, who knows what part of the country your career will put you in, and what if your partner wants to go somewhere else - do you give in and not do what YOU want just because you're the girl?

To look for a guy after college who's already started his career, knows where he's going, has sowed his wild oats, and is ready to be really serious with someone.

And so far, she's done exactly this, and finally found a really great guy who ticks off all her boxes. She turned down a LOT of guys over the last 10 years, while most of her female friends just had to be with a guy, any guy, the entire time. And most of them are either single with kids or married with kids - and no careers.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

bandit.45 said:


> Are you feeling alone in the marriage right now? Do you feel like your WW is invested?


oh she is invested in it, I have no doubts about that.


----------



## bandit.45

I dunno man. This is a tough call. 

I do know this: you're miserable. You're miserable and you're staying in this marriage out of guilt. Guilt that you will be breaking up your family. Guilt that your DD will have to split her time between her parents if you D. 

Well...that's just no way to live brother. 

Let me shoot you a hypothetical: say fifteen or twenty years down the road, your daughter's husband pulls the exact same sh!t your wife did. Would you want her to stay in a miserable marriage, waking up to her husband in the morning, telling him she loves him, but it's all a lie? 

Would you want her to live what you're going through now? Ask yourself what lesson you are teaching her right now. You don't think she can't see what is going on with you and your wife? You don't think she knows you are miserable?


----------



## jim123

Women mostly cheat due to self esteem. Your wife had weight reduction to ease this a little. She now felt better about herself.

The reason this guy is different is she now believed him due to the surgery. It is what she wanted to hear and hope to hear.


----------



## jnj express

If you are one year out on your R, and your wife is doing everything possible, and you are not getting any better----just maybe, you need to look at the option of becoming a free man

You are living a miserable existence, your sub-conscious I am sure is running wild, and life is just not very good

It is not gonna get any better down the line----and once retired, and with your daughter out of the house, and you and your wife retired from work, and thrown together 24/7/365----it really becomes hard

Bottom line you have to do what is necessary for you to live a happy enjoyable life----if to do that means you get a D, then that is what you do-------if you don't wanna do that, then pick your level of misery and good luck to you


----------



## sammy3

It is hard to let go, believe me, I still havent... we have died a slow death together, but also now starting to come to a new point in our "uncoupling," as it's so politely been called. 

I dont know what it is, but I do know that we both have changed so much, we're both beginning to take a steps back and look and see what is left or not, but I couldnt do that last year... 

People have said to me, "you're lucky, he's proving...he's has stuck around this long." and I respond, "I'm Lucky???? He's the lucky one, that I've stuck around this long..."

I see why there's a 5 year mark to work thorough...

~sammy


----------



## CantBelieveThis

seeking some advice, and as you all know I have set myself a deadline of end of year to make a decision about my marriage ...but i want to be as prepared as possible and avoid making mistakes which i have made in the past...looking from folks feedback on how should i address some things, such as

1. how can i prepare for a swift decision? should I have divorce papers ready and written up to be served? or wait until I decide?

2. should i let her know before I file about my intentions to D? or just let her be served w/o knowing? if i let her know before am opening up myself to some potential crazyness from her....

3. how to handle the kids? do i tell them or have her tell them?

4. should i start doing things like separating finances? i already have my own bank account that I created shortly after dday but our finances are still fully joint....but if I further separate things that might raise suspicions?

Again...i am not certain of anything at this point, i might continue R, I just simply dont know and am still on the fence pretty much, but I made myself the deadline because I function better that way and I feel I need to draw a line somewhere. But if I decide to D i want the transition from R to D to be as swift as possible


----------



## LongWalk

You should not wait IMO. File for D. Give the papers.

If she says fine, I don't want to be with you either. Problem solved.

If she asks you to reconsider, say to her:

"I am listening. Tell me what is special about you and us."

Look her in the eye while she speaks. If you can make a decision based on your gut, hold off saying anything. Tell her you'll think it over. The goal is not to humiliate her.

If she goes crazy, tell her you'll talk later.

As HappyMan advises, you don't have to make a snap decision.


----------



## badmemory

CantBelieveThis said:


> seeking some advice, and as you all know I have set myself a deadline of end of year to make a decision about my marriage ...but i want to be as prepared as possible and avoid making mistakes which i have made in the past...looking from folks feedback on how should i address some things, such as
> 
> 1. how can i prepare for a swift decision? should I have divorce papers ready and written up to be served? or wait until I decide?
> 
> 2. should i let her know before I file about my intentions to D? or just let her be served w/o knowing? if i let her know before am opening up myself to some potential crazyness from her....
> 
> 3. how to handle the kids? do i tell them or have her tell them?
> 
> 4. should i start doing things like separating finances? i already have my own bank account that I created shortly after dday but our finances are still fully joint....but if I further separate things that might raise suspicions?
> 
> Again...i am not certain of anything at this point, i might continue R, I just simply dont know and am still on the fence pretty much, but I made myself the deadline because I function better that way and I feel I need to draw a line somewhere. But if I decide to D i want the transition from R to D to be as swift as possible


Those are complicated questions and I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer to how to prepare to divorce her. I'll just tell you what I think I would do.

Even though your wife caused all of this, you did agree to attempt R, and you did say she's been doing all the right things since then. I think she deserves some grace for that. So, I would not serve her without notice. I would make financial and housing preparations in advance, have a prepared sit down conversation with her, and then exit as soon as possible after that; the same day if possible.

But that's only, if you are absolutely sure of your decision. There's no reason to get in a back and forth with her if you are.


----------



## turnera

Treat her with the same amount of respect you feel that YOU deserve.


----------



## happyman64

CantBelieveThis said:


> seeking some advice, and as you all know I have set myself a deadline of end of year to make a decision about my marriage ...but i want to be as prepared as possible and avoid making mistakes which i have made in the past...looking from folks feedback on how should i address some things, such as
> 
> 1. how can i prepare for a swift decision? should I have divorce papers ready and written up to be served? or wait until I decide?
> 
> 2. should i let her know before I file about my intentions to D? or just let her be served w/o knowing? if i let her know before am opening up myself to some potential crazyness from her....
> 
> 3. how to handle the kids? do i tell them or have her tell them?
> 
> 4. should i start doing things like separating finances? i already have my own bank account that I created shortly after dday but our finances are still fully joint....but if I further separate things that might raise suspicions?
> 
> Again...i am not certain of anything at this point, i might continue R, I just simply dont know and am still on the fence pretty much, but I made myself the deadline because I function better that way and I feel I need to draw a line somewhere. But if I decide to D i want the transition from R to D to be as swift as possible


CBT

IMO you should hold off on the papers. Because if you have them in your hand you might be tempted to use them.

Wait until you know in your head not your heart what you want to do.

If your wife is invested then you do not surprise her with a Divorce decision. LW is right. 

Ask her the question. Listen to her response. Watch her facial gestures. It is important.

The kids? You tell them together. When yo are both calm and both decided on a course of action. Not until then do you speak to them.

Only separate finances if she is causing you concerns regarding the $$$.

The situation sucks CBT. But it takes two to reconcile. If your wife has her heart in it then you should too if you still have love for her.

False reconciliations are hurtful. If your head and heart are not in it then you already have made a decision and you need to be honest with her.

Good Luck

HM


----------



## CantBelieveThis

I am not trying to hurt her (thou some resentful part of me does, for her betrayal!!) and my point on not planning on letting her know of my intent to file was to avoid the madness for something that I might have my mind made up about anyways. But I see how deceiving her into filing w/o her knowledge can be hurtful and ugly from my part

As I approach this deadline am really looking to stick with whatever decision I make by then, regardless of how remorseful she acts at that point in time or how much she asks for reconsideration, I doubt I will be open to further R if I have chosen to D by then. 
But what I dont want to do is just keep postponing any decision indefinitely, the anxiety over that in itself is whats keeping me in limbo I believe. 

I still have a lot of work (thinking) to do before then, just the logistics around the kids schooling and sporting activities itself is daunting to say the least and I havent event begin to uncover how will that work out w/o seriously affecting them at some level. Her and I complement each other tremendously well in the parenting of the kids schedules and activities alongside our jobs, and a physical separation of us is going to be very hard on them
I am open to remaining under the same roof with her even if divorced in order to coparent the kids, thats the only way I can think to pull this off with the least impact to them...however, she has already rejected that as an option on previous conversations.

Maybe am just being unrealistic about making a permanent decision and shutting down the door on the betrayal to move forward whether in R or D, and thats not really going to happen? Am I being naive and the reality is that regardless of any decision point I make I will still be as hurt by the betrayal? I dont know, perhaps others do....


----------



## 3Xnocharm

CantBelieveThis said:


> I am open to remaining under the same roof with her even if divorced in order to coparent the kids, thats the only way I can think to pull this off with the least impact to them...however, she has already rejected that as an option on previous conversations.


No, this is not an option. Neither of you will be able to truly get on with your lives if you remain in the same home after D. 



CantBelieveThis said:


> Maybe am just being unrealistic about making a permanent decision and shutting down the door on the betrayal to move forward whether in R or D, and thats not really going to happen?* Am I being naive and the reality is that regardless of any decision point I make I will still be as hurt by the betrayal? I dont know, perhaps others do...*.


Yes, reality is that you will STILL be just as hurt by the betrayal, no matter which option you choose. That doesnt mean that you cannot work through it and move forward. Some of us just cant live with this particular betrayal, no matter what, and thats just how it is. Its neither right or wrong.


----------



## happyman64

I agree with 3x.

If you read on some of the successful R's on TAM it is not only because the WS was working 100% on it but the BS was able to get through the betrayal.

Not over it.

Through it.

It takes a strong person to be able to do this. A confident person.

A person that does not worry about the WS doing it again but knowing hat no matter what happens they will be just fine in life.

You have to decide if your wife deserves the gift of R.

And if you can partake in the R 100% as well.

HM


----------



## badmemory

3Xnocharm said:


> No, this is not an option. Neither of you will be able to truly get on with your lives if you remain in the same home after D.


I agree. It may be an option, but I thinks it's a very bad one.


----------



## clipclop2

you've made up your mind already though haven't you ?


----------



## CantBelieveThis

clipclop2 said:


> you've made up your mind already though haven't you ?


no i have not....still very much on the fence...


----------



## GusPolinski

happyman64 said:


> I agree with 3x.
> 
> If you read on some of the successful R's on TAM it is not only because the WS was working 100% on it but *the BS was able to get through the betrayal.*
> 
> *Not over it.
> 
> Through it.*
> 
> It takes a strong person to be able to do this. A confident person.
> 
> A person that does not worry about the WS doing it again but knowing hat no matter what happens they will be just fine in life.
> 
> You have to decide if your wife deserves the gift of R.
> 
> And if you can partake in the R 100% as well.
> 
> HM


Damn. That's actually a great way of looking at it.


----------



## clipclop2

That was awesome Gus!!!


----------



## clipclop2

*Re: Re: if R is not working...even with WS doing all the right things*



CantBelieveThis said:


> no i have not....still very much on the fence...


You dint speak as though you are on the fence since you are deciding how to break the D to her already.


----------



## jim123

CantBelieveThis said:


> no i have not....still very much on the fence...


For R to happen, you need to be 100% committed. If you are not then D will happen.

Give 100% and see how it goes.


----------



## Sol

When making a decision try not to look at what you may lose, but what you may win. If you win a WS back (with few exceptions like EI/MrsJA) you may get a so/so, wounded relationship with someone who has hurt you and shown themselves to be selfish and flawed. If you win your freedom, you may be able to build a healthy/happy relationship with someone new. 

Without any particulars of anyone's relationship, I would boil it down to say there is higher potential upside to jettisoning most WS and starting over. Yes there are risks to all decisions in life. Just try to make the very best decision you can with the information/time you have and then go "All In"!

Of course this could just be indigestion making me "cantankerous"


----------



## 2xloser

CantBelieveThis said:


> seeking some advice, and as you all know I have set myself a deadline of end of year to make a decision about my marriage ...but i want to be as prepared as possible and avoid making mistakes which i have made in the past...looking from folks feedback on how should i address some things, such as
> 
> 1. how can i prepare for a swift decision? should I have divorce papers ready and written up to be served? or wait until I decide?
> 
> 2. should i let her know before I file about my intentions to D? or just let her be served w/o knowing? if i let her know before am opening up myself to some potential crazyness from her....
> 
> 3. how to handle the kids? do i tell them or have her tell them?
> 
> 4. should i start doing things like separating finances? i already have my own bank account that I created shortly after dday but our finances are still fully joint....but if I further separate things that might raise suspicions?
> 
> Again...i am not certain of anything at this point, i might continue R, I just simply dont know and am still on the fence pretty much, but I made myself the deadline because I function better that way and I feel I need to draw a line somewhere. But if I decide to D i want the transition from R to D to be as swift as possible


CBT - 

My view is you're an honorable, caring guy starting to feel just a tad 'empowered' by really considering this D thing (very telling, btw... you haven't made a list of action questions if you decide NOT to D...)*
* or, this assertion from me causes you to protest...?**

Anyway, IF you actually decide to D, my advice is to go out of your way to continue being honorable, and be able to look back immediately and forever and be proud of how you handled it. You've done right till now, take it the last mile with equal grace and class. You will continue to be co-parents, and want a healthy relationship. (but do not stay living in the same house!)

You don't need to be ultra-swift in actions once you actually make that decision. You're not trying to trick her into beliving you will be staying, then pulling a sudden last-minute unveiling if a sinister plan. 

Give her some respect for what she's done in R, tell her what you've decided, but do have some preparations made so that you can answer questions SHE will then have, and which you'll want to be able to tell the kids (jointly, once you both have your composure). 

This will also give you "one last chance" to change your mind as you start privately putting some wheels in motion (assumeing you are moving out and not her):
- when you will be leaving (assuming you will move out and she will stay in house with the kids)
- where you will be living
- basics of what you expect the D agreement will entail (money and assets split, child custody/visitation arrangements, health insurance stuff). I'd guess most of the rest you two can work out.

In telling the kids, in my experience a school child psychologist recommended I set up my new household (with my son's room all prepared as truly "his room") in advance, and SHOW him while we told him. Which we did -- sat him down and explained, then we all went to my new apt and showed him. He had even unknowingly picked out furniture when we'd gone shopping. Younger kids relate much easier to seeing which allays fears and doubts, rather than having to envision, where they have uncertainty. Best advice we got; he really adapted immediately. 


**Or... perhaps you put this same diligence into NOT doing any of this, but in disposing of the thoughts completely and going really all-in to the marriage.

I wish you peace either way. Limbo really is purgatory.


----------



## Decorum

2xloser said:


> CBT -
> In telling the kids, in my experience a school child psychologist recommended I set up my new household (with my son's room all prepared as truly "his room") in advance, and SHOW him while we told him. Which we did -- sat him down and explained, then we all went to my new apt and showed him. He had even unknowingly picked out furniture when we'd gone shopping. Younger kids relate much easier to seeing which allays fears and doubts, rather than having to envision, where they have uncertainty. Best advice we got; he really adapted immediately.


That is priceless advice.


----------



## turnera

Yeah, it's important to remember that when you tell children of a life change, they can't think abstractly yet. Their thoughts will immediately turn to who puts me to bed, where IS my bed, will I still see my friends...they can't yet understand that they will see one of you less, but you can make all the rest of it go smoothly.


----------



## carmen ohio

CBT, a slightly different perspective on several of your questions:



CantBelieveThis said:


> seeking some advice, and as you all know I have set myself a deadline of end of year to make a decision about my marriage ...but i want to be as prepared as possible and avoid making mistakes which i have made in the past...looking from folks feedback on how should i address some things, such as
> 
> 1. how can i prepare for a swift decision? should I have divorce papers ready and written up to be served? or wait until I decide? *You should consult with a good divorce attorney before you make your decision, in order to learn what divorce entails in your state and the likely consequences as regards child custody, child support and alimony. This information should be taken into account in your 'stay or leave' decision-making process. If you decide to divorce, I would recommend having the papers drawn up before informing her so that there is no delay in filing (delay is potentially problematic because it could be interpreted by your FWW as lack of resolve or weakness on your part).*
> 
> 2. should i let her know before I file about my intentions to D? or just let her be served w/o knowing? if i let her know before am opening up myself to some potential crazyness from her.... *You should definitely tell her in advance., not only because she deserve this but because it is in your interest to do so. You want to do everything possible to minimize her confusion and pain in order to speed up, minimize the cost of and help ensure a favorable outcome in the divorce. This means not only telling her what you intend to do but why. As part of this conversation, you should acknowledge her efforts to save the marriage and express your desire to remain effective partners in the raising of your children (in other words, let her down as gently as possible).*
> 
> 3. how to handle the kids? do i tell them or have her tell them? *As others have mentioned, telling them together is best -- but only if both spouses can stick to an agreed script. If you have concerns about this, you may wish to have a private conversation with your children soon after telling your FWW of your intentions.*
> 
> 4. should i start doing things like separating finances? i already have my own bank account that I created shortly after dday but our finances are still fully joint....but if I further separate things that might raise suspicions? *This is another matter that you should discuss with your attorney. As a general rule, separating your finances -- to the extent the law permits -- is best done before disclosing your intention divorce if there is any risk of dissipation of assets.** Also bear in mind that your FWW's attitude toward you might change radically once she learns that you plan to divorce her.*
> 
> Again...i am not certain of anything at this point, i might continue R, I just simply dont know and am still on the fence pretty much, but I made myself the deadline because I function better that way and I feel I need to draw a line somewhere. But if I decide to D i want the transition from R to D to be as swift as possible


I agree with some of the others that, despite your protests to the contrary, you are leaning strongly toward divorce. If so, in addition to preparing for the divorce, give some thought to what you are going to do during the process (e.g., where you will live, how you will interact with your FWW, how much time you will spend with your children) and what you can do now to make your family's life (and especially your children's lives) better after the divorce is final.

Good luck.


----------



## LongWalk

What you wrote back in March. 



> also last night was bad, i told her no matter what she said divorce was still on the table....she broke down badly again hanging onto me telling me "I cant lose you, I love you too much, i so regret everything i have done, I will never be able to repay to you what I did, please i beg you to forgive me at one point, please dont leave me, cant live without you, etc, etc"
> 
> so our 14 year old overheard her crying and she comes running into our room crying too....."mom dad please dont divorce, please dont separate from each other, we want you guys together" and she just kept crying with my wife.....i just stood there pale and couldnt say a word....eventually we both told her it was going to be ok and kissed her and hugged her back into her bed....
> 
> she is our oldest daughter and she has known all along my wife had an affair, she has written us letters asking us to forgive each other and not to split up....just was really painful to see her crying like that last night along her mom, made me feel bad....really makes it so hard to make a decision to leave or do anything.....ah damn infidelity, and god help us all affected by it, this stuff is horrible
> 
> thank goodness for a supportive crowd like TAM, it really does make a difference guys


Did you WW finish her nursing degree and start working?

Is she still eager to have sex up to twice a day?

Do you consider your wife to be a shallow and not particularly bright person? 

Is she capable of sincerity in her relationship with you?


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## CantBelieveThis

LongWalk said:


> What you wrote back in March.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you WW finish her nursing degree and start working?
> *oh yes LW, she finished 2 years ago and has been working since then
> *
> Is she still eager to have sex up to twice a day?
> *absolutely, and passionate also, never a dull moment or feeling like is "duty sex", this has never changed, sex was never ever a problem in our marriage. and even during her affair we were still having plenty of sex thou I did notice then she was a bit cold about it*
> 
> Do you consider your wife to be a shallow and not particularly bright person?
> *Maybe somewhat, not a lot...but she does trust people too much in general, trusts new friends too easily whom have hurt her in the past, but I cant say in general that she is a very bright person, thou she did outstanding on her nursing school, top of her class*
> 
> Is she capable of sincerity in her relationship with you?
> *yes she is as far as I can tell*


----------



## CantBelieveThis

just an update in general....I have change antidepressants and it has been a huge relief, I dont obsess about the affair as much and have a general "not give a crap" attitude, but itdoes feel great to get a break from it all, I feel much more at peace and relaxed. 

I was on Zoloft already and I switched to Lexapro now, and I know the startup bliss of ADs can be short lived so I know these feelings wont last more than a couple months. And honestly part of me doesnt feel right about medicating thru ones genuine pain but I have been on ADs for many years and also I do have a demanding job if anything that I need to be able to function for , particularly towards the end of the year.

As far as her, well am glad to be giving her more of a break recently, her dad has been diagnosed with heart problems and he is going for surgery soon and this has added to her pain so I have backed off quite a bit from the infidelity drama.

Right now am taking it one day at a time but still looking to make a firm decision by years end, unless her dads condition worsens which I will have to possible take some different course then.....


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## clipclop2

This sounds crass but what does her father's condition have to do with your marriage?


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## LongWalk

I don't see the point of ending your marriage. She is doing a good job now.


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## bandit.45

CBT is waging a war between his head and heart. His heart just isn't in it, but his head keeps telling him to stick it out, hoping his heart will eventually jump on the bandwagon and move past what she did. 

Like we've all said so many times, ultimately for some BSs, adultery is a deal breaker, no matter how much remorse and rehabilitation the WS displays.


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## LongWalk

If infidelity is intolerable, that is completely understandable. Look at Sammy. Her husband is doing everything right, but she cannot stand the idea of having sex with him. They are stuck.

Can'tBelieveThis can divorce but he won't necessarily find a better wife. The one he has now is, as far as he can tell, sincere. She works. They have good sex life. What can he hope for in a search for a new wife. He has kids. I don't think he should have deadline. He can divorce in the future.


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## Buddy400

CBT,

Ok, I've been obsessed with TAM for a month or so now. I've read a lot of infidelity posts. I've been stunned and depressed by the damage done to the BS by the WS . I have never once felt the least bit of sympathy for the WS. I read your entire thread today. 

Your wife did a VERY, VERY BAD THING. She did not immediately show remorse. She has shown constant and genuine remorse for over a year. The sex is great, she does everything you want. You want her to admit that cheating is in her character. She doesn't believe this. She thinks it was a aberation. This is not so hard to believe. Isn't the phrase "that was completely out of character for him" common for a reason? She occasionally gets angry with you (of course, as the WS, she shouldn't) because she's been doing all the work for a year and you aren't getting any better and you just keep hammering her. Her response isn't right, but it should be understandable. She's dealt with her past CSA and believes she's got a handle on it but the IC will want her to relive the entire experience (as if it wasn't bad enough the first time around). 

She needs to figure out why she had the affair in the first place? You need to know why she did it in the first place? Here's why: she fvcked up and did something really stupid. Haven't you ever done something bad and out of character that you regret? Maybe you were mean to a nerdy girl in high school. Do you really need to know what character flaw led you to do that? Isn't it enough to know that doing that was wrong and that you'll never do something that mean and cruel again?

Your problem is that you keep taking this very bad thing that she did to you and pulling it up, spinning it around in your head and examining it over and over. No wonder you can't get over it; you won't leave it alone. If you keep doing this, you're going to be angry and depressed your entire life, whether you get a D or not. If you get a D, you'll never be able to have a decent relationship as long as you keep obsessing about it. You are never going to heal as long as you keep picking at the scab and reopening the wound. 

Reading this thread and watching your WS suffer and twist in the wind is like watching a dog being beaten. Sure, the dog might have bitten you but, for God's sake, stop doing this! You used to have the moral high ground but now you've forfeited it. 

Get over it. Tell her your wife you forgive her. When you find yourself wanting to reopen the wound, go for a run around the block, play Led Zeppelin really loud. Let your daughter know how much you love and support your wife. Be on her side. I know you've been wronged and you shouldn’t have to do any of this. You don't have to. But it's the only way you're going to be happy again. Do the right thing. You didn’t cause this, but you’re the only one who can solve it.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

I know it trust me, I fully know and very aware that am dragging this out and fully agree and understand with what you are all saying....this is precisely why I have set the year end deadline, because this cant go on forever....am hurting her, am hurting myself....I feel the weight all on me at this point.
the fundamental problem is that there still so much pain from the betrayal and that pain draws and wants attention and I almost feel helpless about it sometimes. 
There are still moments where I simply cannot believe this has happened, that she could have never ever done something so horrible to our family. that tells me am still struggling with acceptance, and I have to get there before I get to forgiveness.
Yes I have made stupid mistakes in life that I regret, but I just know deep inside I could have never done what she did, betraying not only me, but our family and children and their future. 
She knew what she was doing, she admits this, she made herself believe the marriage was dead and that I didnt care for her...so coincidentally she behaved as such, as if there was nothing left to save...fine fair enough....but how about the children? how can she act in such selfish ways to ignore her childrens needs and future??

Another issue is this, keep in mind I had no idea she was so unhappy about the marriage and me, she never told me a thing about it so I was sitting there the whole time thinking everything was ok, then one gets the huge shock of the betrayal, that sudden and brutal shock alone is devastating, let alone the betrayal itself....PTSD in full effect.

I know she is doing everything right, I know she loves me and is dedicated to us....but yet am so torn that as LW has said, no matter how remorseful she is that might not be enough, it all rests on what I can or cannot live with and am finding it very difficult to understand what that is, while considering the kids and their livelihood, and that I also love her.

thanks for hanging in there with all your feedback, I know my going in circles is getting old, but hearing everyones thoughts and opinions really does make a difference


----------



## 3Xnocharm

CantBelieveThis said:


> I know she is doing everything right, I know she loves me and is dedicated to us....but yet am so torn that as LW has said, no matter how remorseful she is that might not be enough, it all rests on what I can or cannot live with and am finding it very difficult to understand what that is, while considering the kids and their livelihood, and that I also love her.
> 
> thanks for hanging in there with all your feedback, I know my going in circles is getting old, but hearing everyones thoughts and opinions really does make a difference


I've said this here before...ITS OKAY if you cannot get past this. There are not a lot of people who can, it doesnt make them (or you) right or wrong, its just what it is. Probably the majority of us would NOT be able to fully recover from this kind of betrayal. At least you are aware enough to know that you cannot keep on this way, and you know that you tried.


----------



## bigfoot

I so understand your point. Here's the thing, loving someone is not the only reason to stay with them. There may be times you don't love or like your wife, but you stay committed and married. Ultimately, the lack of love was really just misplaced emotion blocking you from seeing that you still loved her. Still, you stayed committed while you rode this out. My point is that commitment is what kept you there.

In your case, her lack of commitment and resulting betrayal make you question whether you should stick with your end. Before, love was so intertwined with commitment that you viewed them as one and the same, and you never looked back. Now, she has caused you see that she could separate them and has made you start looking again. 

Perhaps you need to go on a no contact, except for the kids, type separation. You need to know if you are better off without her. You may find that you want to go back, or you may find that you can't and that you are okay with that. In short, a hardcore separation might be the process that settles this for you. 

As I have said, marriage is not a reward and divorce is not a punishment. It does not matter that she is doing good and working hard. The fact that she cheated is the issue. You get to re-evaluate whether the love commitment bind is worth re-securing.


----------



## happyman64

CBT

I don't think you are going in circles.

You are working through a very difficult time in your marriage.

You are weighing a big decision. Is my wife worth reconciling with???

*



There are still moments where I simply cannot believe this has happened, that she could have never ever done something so horrible to our family. that tells me am still struggling with acceptance, and I have to get there before I get to forgiveness.

Click to expand...

*Just realize this works both ways. Because your wife is remorseful.

And I bet she cannot believe she did this to you, the family and herself.

So while dealing with your pain just remember that she is dealing with hers.

Is it of her own choosing? Yes.
Did she make that horrible choice of her own free will? Yes.

Did she think of you or the kids let alone her marriage? No.

Sometimes two spouses can acknowledge thatpain. Share that pain. ANd heal that pain.

Together.

Ask her. Listen to her answer.

Like I said you have to go through it. Not over it or around it.

IMO you are going through it right now.

Keep at it......

HM


----------



## bigfoot

Oh, I forgot to add this. The reason I advocate a hard no contact except for the kids separation instead of divorce is because that is a middle ground. 

If you are going to jump on the divorce train, at least "try before you buy". In some instances, people need to divorce and maybe remarry as it is a strong statement to everyone, cheater included, that the old marriage is dead. I can wrap my head around that. The cheater needs to know that the betrayed wanted to officially end that marriage. The prospect of getting back afterwards is out there, but not required. It seems to restore balance. Maybe that is what you need to do. Divorce her, live without her and decide if she warrants remarrying or whether you can just start over. I, however, encourage a middle ground first.

A hard separation falls short of that, but it lets the offending spouse live with the consequences of their actions. Not just being apart from you, but having to see what being a single parent is like, having people talk about your relationship failure, having to navigate life without a spouse, seeing the impact on the kids and family. I'm not saying experiment bringing suffering into the lives of the kids, I am saying that this is the reality that the cheater brought, so the suffering and sadness have to be experienced by all. This is what SHE caused and THAT is HER burden to bear, not yours.

It allows the betrayed to see things "close up" if you will. It has to be a hard, no contact, this is how life would be if we were divorced type separation. You will see and deal with the same things that she is in so far as fallout and third party casualties, but it will not be your "fault". Both of you get to see the realities. You can always come back or you can just make it official and end it, but either way, you eliminate a lot of ambivalence. You can eliminate the fear of the unknown. You will know how the kids handle it, how the family handles it, how YOU handle it. As they say in boxing, at some point, you are going to have to get hit. Boxers do a lot of hard sparring before they actually get into the ring for a real fight. Real punches, real blood, real blows. It hurts, but without it, they would fail the real thing.

I truly feel for you. For you, the type of betrayal might determine if it is a deal breaker. Maybe you love her but do not cherish her and that might just lead to a slow but steady descent into apathy and resentment. The man that you become by staying, may not be the man that you want to be. 

I suggest a hard separation. (strongly as this is my third time saying it) this choice is ALL ABOUT YOU AND NO ONE ELSE. Everyone else will have to adjust.


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## CantBelieveThis

another thing is, and I see this a lot, she insists she used protection with him, but most people in affairs dont right?....how much do I believe her on this topic? 

there we no STDs on her lab results and her PA details have always added up when I have asked numerous times.
I did ask for a lot of details, just because I felt I needed to know everything and let nothing stay hidden or untold (no I dont really get mind movies and all that), her details were very descriptive and have always added up as far as the use of protection....however she also insists they could never really do it but once and only lasted a few seconds because his erections failed every time, and also he was very "small"....


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## LongWalk

His junk was probably average.

They probably did not always use condoms.

Some affair sex is poor. There TAM stories in which this was objectively uncovered, e.g., emails between the affair partners. 

If your wife is embellishing how average the sex was, she is probably doing it in the believe that it spares you pain.

The lurid or banal truth about this particular aspect of the affair is less important than your gut feeling. Your wife loves you. That means everything. You are having sex and feel connected. Your kids have their family.

Adriana, a poster who caught her husband cheating on her, ended her marriage and gave her husband zero opportunity to reconcile. She scarcely saw him again. He was desperate. His parents feared he might commit suicide the first Christmas he was alone. She just wasn't the sort to forgive and reconcile. There is nothing wrong with being decisive either way.


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## clipclop2

I hate "junk" as a description. It is as offensive as anything thrown at women.


----------



## jim123

CantBelieveThis said:


> another thing is, and I see this a lot, she insists she used protection with him, but most people in affairs dont right?....how much do I believe her on this topic?
> 
> there we no STDs on her lab results and her PA details have always added up when I have asked numerous times.
> I did ask for a lot of details, just because I felt I needed to know everything and let nothing stay hidden or untold (no I dont really get mind movies and all that), her details were very descriptive and have always added up as far as the use of protection....however she also insists they could never really do it but once and only lasted a few seconds because his erections failed every time, and also he was very "small"....


She was going to leave you for him if he said yes. Do you think she would have if he could never get it up? 

Ask her to take a poly on this.


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## HobbesTheTiger

I second the polygraph idea.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

CantBelieveThis said:


> however she also insists they could never really do it but once and only lasted a few seconds because his erections failed every time, and also he was very "small"....


Of course she said this, she doesn't want a D anymore.

"It" could have been the size of your forearm, stayed hard all night, every night and he might have been a stallion in bed - She would have told you the same thing.

If she had left you for him, I'll guarantee you that she would be saying some things differently.

For all you know, she could have told the OM the same about you when she was having sex with him.

In the mode of self preservation, she's going to tell you what she thinks you'll need/want to hear. I wouldn't take anything that she says about the affair to seriously. It's not worth the breath it took to speak them.

If you do decide to D, she may start telling you that things were really the total opposite of what she had told you already.

If so, you won't know for sure if those were %100 true either.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

I did find back then on her Google history that around the time of the affair she had done searches on "impotence in men", "performance anxiety in men" and "small p3nus"...hence my inclination to believe there might be some truth to it....but no such on the use of protection, she says she was very aware and fearful of pregnancy


----------



## LongWalk

clipclop2 said:


> I hate "junk" as a description. It is as offensive as anything thrown at women.


His penis then

OP,

Treat your wife with respect.
Confine the affair as a topic to be brought up in MC.

Seek happiness within yourself. Listen to her carefully.

You never can know if you will divorce. Simply take things one day at a time.

Read RoadScholar's thread. He is reconciling.


----------



## clipclop2

I like penis better. The one thing a penis isn't is junk.

But I always thought junk was describing the holy trinity and not just the leader of the pack.


----------



## Suspecting2014

CTB, How r u doing?


----------



## sammy3

CantBelieveThis said:


> just an update in general....I have change antidepressants and it has been a huge relief, I dont obsess about the affair as much and have a general "not give a crap" attitude, but itdoes feel great to get a break from it all, I feel much more at peace and relaxed.
> 
> I was on Zoloft already and I switched to Lexapro now, and I know the startup bliss of ADs can be short lived so I know these feelings wont last more than a couple months. And honestly part of me doesnt feel right about medicating thru ones genuine pain but I have been on ADs for many years and also I do have a demanding job if anything that I need to be able to function for , particularly towards the end of the year.
> 
> As far as her, well am glad to be giving her more of a break recently, her dad has been diagnosed with heart problems and he is going for surgery soon and this has added to her pain so I have backed off quite a bit from the infidelity drama.
> 
> Right now am taking it one day at a time but still looking to make a firm decision by years end, unless her dads condition worsens which I will have to possible take some different course then.....




I changed medication too, I went on lexapro also. I can't tell you the huge difference in such a short time. It is really even weird as I was telling a friend, it's almost like none of the past 3 years existed. I've almost forgotten what I've gone thur, and why. I don't hurt anymore. Everything is in such a far away memory. It like I have to remind myself of why my husband and I aren't together. 

It happened so quickly. It's the strangest thing. 

~sammy


----------



## CantBelieveThis

hi TAM crew....sorry its been a while....
the antidepressant (Lexapro) has really been a blessing and it has really helped taking the edge off of things and making it more bearable for me, allowing me to think better and more clearly.
that being said, I still very much feel the pain of her betrayal, none of that has changed, is just not as debilitating as it used to be.

In a way I feel like am "cheating" on the affair (pun intended) by medicating myself thru my pain and coping ability, but I guess we all need help somehow sometime to cope with this awful nightmare. Curious by others experiences in medicating thru this situation and how it worked out for you?

I am still sticking to making a decision to continue R or D by end of year, am not backing away from that promise I made myself and I feel I need to keep it. Regardless of the meds the harsh reality of the betrayal is not washed away and still hits me to the core. I have been doing a lot of things for myself, picked up on playing piano again and also keep exercising more, thou its still very hard to ignore the infidelity and the thoughts about it keep coming up daily, several times a day.

My wife still doing all the right things, even better as time goes by I would say....but she is getting depressed and is full of guilt and remorse more than before, plus this has affected her ability to lose weight which makes her more depressed and it just creates a vicious circle....I am supporting her as much as I can and our fights over the affair have reduced drastically, she still in weekly IC but not sure how much its helping.

One thing that I see now that I didnt see before is how awful it must feel on her to have cheated on her partner and then not being able to get another chance at all, that part of having done something so wrong and never being able to take it back would have crushed me if I had done it. and I see this in her very clearly now, I think it was there all along, I was just too blind with my own anger to see it. I am not implying that I will forgive her or continue R, but I can see her hardship a lot better now, and relate to it.


----------



## RV9

CantBelieveThis said:


> hi TAM crew....sorry its been a while....
> the antidepressant (Lexapro) has really been a blessing and it has really helped taking the edge off of things and making it more bearable for me, allowing me to think better and more clearly.
> that being said, I still very much feel the pain of her betrayal, none of that has changed, is just not as debilitating as it used to be.
> 
> In a way I feel like am "cheating" on the affair (pun intended) by medicating myself thru my pain and coping ability, but I guess we all need help somehow sometime to cope with this awful nightmare. Curious by others experiences in medicating thru this situation and how it worked out for you?


I abused antidepressants for the last 3 years. Initially it made things bearable, even rosy but with time it numbed me to the point that I had to fake emotions. I clamped up about how I was doing and lying and avoiding questions regarding my personal life became my reflex reaction. Now I'm going through deaddiction therapy. 

I have delayed in tackling issues head-on. So it would take me time to get used to it. I believe I'm a deviation. So don't worry as long as you follow doctor's instructions.


----------



## ConanHub

Glad for the update. I am not pro R or D but hope you come through this good and healthy, I hope your wife learns to cope with the after effects of her choices and becomes a healthier person as well.

Take care.


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> hi TAM crew....sorry its been a while....
> the antidepressant (Lexapro) has really been a blessing and it has really helped taking the edge off of things and making it more bearable for me, allowing me to think better and more clearly.
> that being said, I still very much feel the pain of her betrayal, none of that has changed, is just not as debilitating as it used to be.
> 
> In a way I feel like am "cheating" on the affair (pun intended) by medicating myself thru my pain and coping ability, but I guess we all need help somehow sometime to cope with this awful nightmare. Curious by others experiences in medicating thru this situation and how it worked out for you?
> 
> I am still sticking to making a decision to continue R or D by end of year, am not backing away from that promise I made myself and I feel I need to keep it. Regardless of the meds the harsh reality of the betrayal is not washed away and still hits me to the core. I have been doing a lot of things for myself, picked up on playing piano again and also keep exercising more, thou its still very hard to ignore the infidelity and the thoughts about it keep coming up daily, several times a day.
> 
> My wife still doing all the right things, even better as time goes by I would say....but she is getting depressed and is full of guilt and remorse more than before, plus this has affected her ability to lose weight which makes her more depressed and it just creates a vicious circle....I am supporting her as much as I can and our fights over the affair have reduced drastically, she still in weekly IC but not sure how much its helping.
> 
> One thing that I see now that I didnt see before is how awful it must feel on her to have cheated on her partner and then not being able to get another chance at all, that part of having done something so wrong and never being able to take it back would have crushed me if I had done it. and I see this in her very clearly now, I think it was there all along, I was just too blind with my own anger to see it. I am not implying that I will forgive her or continue R, but I can see her hardship a lot better now, and relate to it.


I am glad you are feelign better.

Infidelity destruction reachs everything and everybody directly or indirectly related.

Your wife will be fine if keeps IC. You too with time...

How is your daugther doing?


----------



## TheGoodGuy

CantBelieveThis said:


> One thing that I see now that I didnt see before is how awful it must feel on her to have cheated on her partner and then not being able to get another chance at all, that part of having done something so wrong and never being able to take it back would have crushed me if I had done it.


Makes you wonder why they don't think in these terms when they're making their choices to cheat, huh?


----------



## sammy3

CantBelieveThis said:


> One thing that I see now that I didnt see before is how awful it must feel on her to have cheated on her partner and then not being able to get another chance at all, that part of having done something so wrong and never being able to take it back would have crushed me if I had done it. and I see this in her very clearly now, I think it was there all along, I was just too blind with my own anger to see it. I am not implying that I will forgive her or continue R, but I can see her hardship a lot better now, and relate to it.


This is what I have been dealing w for the past almost 3.5 years. and after a almost 28 years of a happy marriage. How I can be so unforgiving... how I cant go back and fall in love and live the marriage that can be? His affair has hurt in so many ways that has made me just dislike who I am completely... 

~sammy


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## ConanHub

Not very damn healthy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Suspecting2014 said:


> How is your daughter doing?


she is actually doing quite good...she has a new serious boyfriend now and is very happy (for now, while it lasts i guess), he is a nice kid, one year older.......

interestingly, she did find out about my wife having been sexually involved in the affair, she was initially told by my wife it was only kissing, but a couple weeks ago her and my wife got into an argument and my daughter angrily blurted out of nowhere that she knew she did more than just kissing. 

We dont know how she found this out, we think she might have read one of our emails in my wifes laptop when she was using it one day.....my wife was very hurt by this for a few days.
Who knows what this knowledge is doing to my daughter!!, thou we have made it clear to her not to become sexually involved with this new boyfriend which she agrees to.....


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> she is actually doing quite good...she has a new serious boyfriend now and is very happy (for now, while it lasts i guess), he is a nice kid, one year older.......
> 
> interestingly, she did find out about my wife having been sexually involved in the affair, she was initially told by my wife it was only kissing, but a couple weeks ago her and my wife got into an argument and my daughter angrily blurted out of nowhere that she knew she did more than just kissing.
> 
> We dont know how she found this out, we think she might have read one of our emails in my wifes laptop when she was using it one day.....my wife was very hurt by this for a few days.
> Who knows what this knowledge is doing to my daughter!!, thou we have made it clear to her not to become sexually involved with this new boyfriend which she agrees to.....


I am gland she is fine.

Well as you can read at TAM, and other webs, the destruction an A makes last for many years and reaches many places.

Offer your daugter the possibility to get some IC, explain to her that there is nothng worng with her, that you are just asking if she would like to discuss with a neutral trird party about what is going on with you and your wife.

As possible be honest with her as she may ask about D


----------



## 3Xnocharm

CantBelieveThis said:


> *
> We dont know how she found this out,* we think she might have read one of our emails in my wifes laptop when she was using it one day.....my wife was very hurt by this for a few days.
> Who knows what this knowledge is doing to my daughter!!, thou we have made it clear to her not to become sexually involved with this new boyfriend which she agrees to.....


I'm sure that being an observant, intelligent kid, that she figured this out on her own. Kids are well aware of the ways of the world, WAY more than most parents give them credit for. I'm sure as soon as her mother told her it was "only kissing" that she had it nailed.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

I second the recommendation of you offering to pay for your daughter's IC. Best wishes


----------



## CantBelieveThis

we still have the "deep" talks once a week or so....I am still bothered that she still claims she never thought there was anything of any attraction going on between them until he kissed her....she just thought she was being friendly with him and she didnt think she was crossing the line, yet she told her during this time she wasnt happy in her marriage...wtf? 
she says she said this just being honest about how she felt....I mean to me that means a green light for a player if you ask me, right?

and even then, how the hell do you just return an unexpected kiss if you didnt have any sexual attraction for the person who kissed you to being with? she says she doesnt know, she liked it she "guesses" :scratchhead:


----------



## RV9

CantBelieveThis said:


> we still have the "deep" talks once a week or so....I am still bothered that she still claims she never thought there was anything of any attraction going on between them until he kissed her....she just thought she was being friendly with him and she didnt think she was crossing the line, yet she told her during this time she wasnt happy in her marriage...wtf?
> she says she said this just being honest about how she felt....I mean to me that means a green light for a player if you ask me, right?
> 
> and even then, how the hell do you just return an unexpected kiss if you didnt have any sexual attraction for the person who kissed you to being with? she says she doesnt know, she liked it she "guesses" :scratchhead:


Stop trying to make sense of madness.


----------



## Nucking Futs

CantBelieveThis said:


> we still have the "deep" talks once a week or so....I am still bothered that she still claims she never thought there was anything of any attraction going on between them until he kissed her....she just thought she was being friendly with him and she didnt think she was crossing the line, yet she told her during this time she wasnt happy in her marriage...wtf?
> she says she said this just being honest about how she felt....I mean to me that means a green light for a player if you ask me, right?
> 
> and even then, *how the hell do you just return an unexpected kiss* if you didnt have any sexual attraction for the person who kissed you to being with? she says she doesnt know, she liked it she "guesses" :scratchhead:


I returned an unexpected kiss from a woman I was not attracted to. I mean _really_ not attracted. But she grabbed me and started kissing and I just responded for about 15 seconds before I broke it and told her to knock it off. Unfortunately I had stuck my finger in her face when I told her to back off and she started sucking it, and that just made it that much harder. Breaking it off, I mean. 

My point being that sometimes, when someone grabs you and starts kissing, you automatically kiss back until your brain catches up. But that should be measured in seconds, followed by horror at what you just did. There certainly shouldn't be anything else following after the initial surprise kissing.


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> we still have the "deep" talks once a week or so....I am still bothered that she still claims *she never thought there was anything of any attraction going on between them until he kissed her.*...she just thought she was being friendly with him and she didnt think she was crossing the line, yet she told her during this time she wasnt happy in her marriage...wtf?
> she says she said this just being honest about how she felt....I mean to me that means a green light for a player if you ask me, right?
> 
> and even then, *how the hell do you just return an unexpected kiss if you didnt have any sexual attraction for the person who kissed you to being with?* she says she doesnt know, she liked it she "guesses" :scratchhead:


When he kissed her, and didn't tell you, she chose to continue. Was her will, nothing more. And let be honest, why did she put her self in a situation where this guy could ever try to kiss her??

I am not saying she is lying, maybe she blocked that info.

I believe she changed in her head the reality to make it more bearable. I read in other post that WWs sometime do this as a way to try to see they self not as a person capable of doing something such selfish and destroy their families.

If you chose to stay you must accept that you will never know everything and that even is she answer all your questions you will never find the answer you are looking for (something different of her own conscious will to cheat)


----------



## CantBelieveThis

i know I shouldnt try to make sense of all the madness....but there are some things I feel I need to grasp better if I am thinking of staying with her......
they kissed twice , so she had chance to stop him after the first one...but she said she liked it so she still didnt refuse the second one....
why cant she just say..."_I liked the guy and was attracted to him and I liked it when he kissed me_"...I mean I could understand that, would be something normal to happen, I could relate to that...but nooo she has to spin all this mysterious unawareness about it that ticks me off. 
Are they just rationalizing their behavior to minimize their actions? if so dont they know sometimes it doesnt make any sense and that it sounds like utter BS?

She tells me "you want answers, and I give them to you, but you dont like them, and I cant help that".....fair enough, but dont give teenage BS answers....


----------



## 3putt

Nucking Futs said:


> I returned an unexpected kiss from a woman I was not attracted to. I mean _really_ not attracted. But she grabbed me and started kissing and I just responded for about 15 seconds before I broke it and told her to knock it off. *Unfortunately I had stuck my finger in her face when I told her to back off and she started sucking it,* and that just made it that much harder. Breaking it off, I mean.


I hate it when that happens.


----------



## Squeakr

CantBelieveThis said:


> i
> She tells me "you want answers, and I give them to you, but you dont like them, and I cant help that".....fair enough, but dont give teenage BS answers....


The question is are the answers the truth or just that...answers?? There is a difference.


----------



## Nucking Futs

CantBelieveThis said:


> i know I shouldnt try to make sense of all the madness....but there are some things I feel I need to grasp better if I am thinking of staying with her......
> they kissed twice , so she had chance to stop him after the first one...but she said she liked it so she still didnt refuse the second one....
> why cant she just say..."_I liked the guy and was attracted to him and I liked it when he kissed me_"...I mean I could understand that, would be something normal to happen, I could relate to that...but nooo she has to spin all this mysterious unawareness about it that ticks me off.
> Are they just rationalizing their behavior to minimize their actions? if so dont they know sometimes it doesnt make any sense and that it sounds like utter BS?
> 
> She tells me "you want answers, and I give them to you, but you dont like them, and I cant help that".....fair enough, but dont give teenage BS answers....


Here's the problem. If she doesn't know why she did it, she can't really assure you she won't do it again.


----------



## turnera

CantBelieveThis said:


> Are they just rationalizing their behavior to minimize their actions?


Of course.


----------



## GusPolinski

Nucking Futs said:


> Here's the problem. If she doesn't know why she did it, she can't really assure you she won't do it again.


Yep. Exactly. Print this out and leave it for her on the bathroom mirror.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Nucking Futs said:


> CantBelieveThis said:
> 
> 
> 
> i know I shouldnt try to make sense of all the madness....but there are some things I feel I need to grasp better if I am thinking of staying with her......
> they kissed twice , so she had chance to stop him after the first one...but she said she liked it so she still didnt refuse the second one....
> why cant she just say..."_I liked the guy and was attracted to him and I liked it when he kissed me_"...I mean I could understand that, would be something normal to happen, I could relate to that...but nooo she has to spin all this mysterious unawareness about it that ticks me off.
> Are they just rationalizing their behavior to minimize their actions? if so dont they know sometimes it doesnt make any sense and that it sounds like utter BS?
> 
> She tells me "you want answers, and I give them to you, but you dont like them, and I cant help that".....fair enough, but dont give teenage BS answers....
> 
> 
> 
> Here's the problem. If she doesn't know why she did it, she can't really assure you she won't do it again.
Click to expand...

Totally agree!!!!


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Nucking Futs said:


> Here's the problem. If she doesn't know why she did it, she can't really assure you she won't do it again.


I have stated this to her several times....she says she knows very well now to never let that happen ever again and cross those lines, she insists she was very angry with me and had given up on our marriage (w/o saying a word to me about it, mind you) and didnt watch her boundaries when this happened, and she knows now to never fall into that frame of mind again w/o talking with me first and discussing things right away, and not to confide on other people (specially males) about our marriage problems.

so that leaves me wondering, what the hell were they thinking before??? were they thinking that any of these type of things was ok to do? Did they not really completely understand what marriage meant??? Because I damn well know not to do those things and I didnt need an affair or a wake-up call to "get it"....

I truly believe the cheaters mind is a lot simpler than some try to make it look like, is not that sophisticated or complex....is just lack of respect, lying and selfishness...and she does admit she was these things yet I struggle with why does she insist in making it more complicated


----------



## Squeakr

CantBelieveThis said:


> I have stated this to her several times....she says she knows very well now to never let that happen ever again and cross those lines, she insists she was very angry with me and had given up on our marriage (w/o saying a word to me about it, mind you) and didnt watch her boundaries when this happened, and she knows now to never fall into that frame of mind again w/o talking with me first and discussing things right away, and not to confide on other people (specially males) about our marriage problems.
> 
> so that leaves me wondering, what the hell were they thinking before??? were they thinking that any of these type of things was ok to do? Did they not really completely understand what marriage meant??? Because I damn well know not to do those things and I didnt need an affair or a wake-up call to "get it"....
> 
> I truly believe the cheaters mind is a lot simpler than some try to make it look like, is not that sophisticated or complex....is just lack of respect, lying and selfishness...and she does admit she was these things yet I struggle with why does she insist in making it more complicated


If you truly believe that the cheater's mind is that simple, then you might as well end it now, as you think the concepts being discussed are complex. With such a simple mind she never will grasp such complexity and eventually it will happen again. The problem and issue is (and I have been told this by my STBXW and several other cheaters, many on here) that once the line/boundary is crossed, the next times it is that much easier to stray across and the line is blurred. SO in the future without the correct tools and faced with the same issues and situations, the line is easily crossed.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

CantBelieveThis said:


> I have stated this to her several times....she says she knows very well now to never let that happen ever again and cross those lines, she insists she was very angry with me and had given up on our marriage (w/o saying a word to me about it, mind you) and didnt watch her boundaries when this happened, and she knows now to never fall into that frame of mind again w/o talking with me first and discussing things right away, and not to confide on other people (specially males) about our marriage problems.
> 
> so that leaves me wondering, what the hell were they thinking before??? were they thinking that any of these type of things was ok to do? Did they not really completely understand what marriage meant??? Because I damn well know not to do those things and I didnt need an affair or a wake-up call to "get it"....
> 
> I truly believe the cheaters mind is a lot simpler than some try to make it look like, is not that sophisticated or complex....is just lack of respect, lying and selfishness...and she does admit she was these things yet I struggle with why does she insist in making it more complicated


If this is where you still are with this after THIS MUCH time, then you need to end things. This is clearly something that you are not able to accept/deal with/move past. And thats okay, most of us would not be able to.


----------



## Retribution

CBT,

One thing that stands out to me is you mentioned several times throughout your post that you felt numb towards your wife, and that this feeling has increased in persistence since you discovered your wife's affair. It occurs to me that this may be indifference (as some have mentioned this is the opposite of love), perhaps?

You've also suggested that you feel this way as a way to protect yourself from further harm, and you're absolutely right. I once had a friend who, while being dumped by a particularly toxic girlfriend, said, "You know how you're only hurt by the ones you love? Well, I don't feel anything at all." Of course we all high-fived and patted him on the back (he has since expressed remorse for treating her like that), but the point remains that those who we love have so much more potential to hurt and destroy us emotionally than anyone else in our lives.

With this in mind what are you doing to foster either feelings of love or indifference towards your wife?

Keep in mind that fostering love towards your wife won't fix any of your feelings of betrayal...not completely. I've asked some questions of people who have done R and what I have come to conclude is that those feelings of disappointment, betrayal, loss, etc. never fully go away. Its sadly all part of the sh!t sandwich that BS are forced to eat in R. Some call it the "scars" or "lost limbs" of betrayal. Somehow, don't ask me how because its completely beyond my ability to understand, these people find it in themselves to move through the affairs and adultery to find more value in their relationships than the pain that lies beneath.

Personally I can't do that. I find no shame in either decision, and have respect for people who have done either for each takes its own kind of courage.

I wish you the best of luck, and hope you can find some peace in this sh!t storm called life.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

just read this thread and I feel I might end up like him one day.... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/109681-another-one-joins-ranks-14.html#post11287602


----------



## RWB

CantBelieveThis said:


> ...I truly believe the cheaters mind is a lot simpler than some try to make it look like, is not that sophisticated or complex....is just lack of respect, lying and selfishness...and she does admit she was these things yet I struggle with why does she insist in making it more complicated


CBT,

5+ years with FWW, serial cheated for 7 before finally catching her with another man. Do you question my sanity? I would. Have I learned a thing or two? Maybe?

Your writing is straight from the BS handbook. Brother... you are trying to put some form of Rational Thought in line with her cheating behavior. 

It's not rational, it never will make sense, nothing she can say will ever justify the reality of infidelity. 

Welcome Aboard the Crazy Train!


----------



## Q tip

So she uses juvenile logic to explain her cheating ways.

What I posted is what I still think at post #6...


----------



## CantBelieveThis

I dont know that is too complex thou, is it? I mean isnt cheating really simple since its based on pure selfishness and enjoyment? or am I missing something bigger than that? At least thats how I interpret it now and how I have read a lot of it here in TAM

is the more complex question perhaps one of how could they be so foolish as to not think of the risks and ignore them?


----------



## Eleftherios

From the things I've been through trying to make sense of it is the biggest waste of time and effort. They don't think of anything but themselves. They will run damage control and minimize everything. After all the investigating and questioning to find the truth it would have made more sense to have kicked her out and tell her when your ready to deal with this as an adult and own it for what it is we'll talk. The best I can tell you is stop trying to rationalize it. It's like a bunch of turtles stampeding through peanut butter. Nowhere fast.


----------



## Suspecting2014

You just nail it.

Cheating explanation is very simple, it is because she wanted period.

Complex are the justification, consecuenses, shame, etc.

She cheated because she wanted, she fall for him because she wanted, and sadest thing is that she is with you because he dumped her. 

Complexit of this is like trying to explain why you like chocolate or hate vanilla icecream, when the answer is very simple, because " I like it"

IMO u should focus on how you feel about the whole picture and try to visualze your self in the future...

There are not complex answers, just not the ones that we want to hear


----------



## sammy3

CBT, 
The reality is, it's the new marriage. You either like it now or you dont. It's either ok with you or not. It will never go away, as it is now apart of the marriage. In time things will change, you may soften in your feelings, you may be able to move on together, but it is always going to be there, just like the color of your wife's eyes... they cant change.

~sammy


----------



## chaos

CantBelieveThis said:


> I dont know that is too complex thou, is it? I mean isnt cheating really simple since its based on pure selfishness and enjoyment? or am I missing something bigger than that? At least thats how I interpret it now and how I have read a lot of it here in TAM
> 
> is the more complex question perhaps one of how could they be so foolish as to not think of the risks and ignore them?


It is simple and they often start as innocent meetings which in time become more intimate through the sharing personal dissatisfaction in their marriages. Instead of facing their spouse's with their issues and trying to resolve them, they escape to the AP. Like people who escape to alcohol or through drugs. It is a very selfish and very destructive way that solves nothing and destroys marriages and families.


----------



## Retribution

I agree, CBT, it isn't really that complex why the WSs do what they do.

What I find puzzling is how us BSs are expected to find marital happiness, fulfillment, whatever you want to call it with a person who so willingly did these things.

Here's a hypothetical example to illustrate this complexity. No actual affair has happened yet in this example:

Wife: "I want to be with OM because he can fvck me better, love me better, you ignore me, I need love too, insert typical excuses here."

Husband: "I love you! I trust you not to hurt me! Please don't do this to us! I know I'm not perfect, but why would you do this to us?"

Wife: Goes and has affair anyways.

Husband: Realizes just how much respect his wife has for him when she so blatantly hurts him. Husband leaves.

Now let's take this same example and add lies. Wife does the same things, but instead of being honest she says nothing. Somehow this lie is what makes the difference between R and D. Why? Isn't it worse that she lied? Sure, she says she lied to protect you. Is that also why she was fvking the OM, to "protect"? You can't serve two masters, and you sure as hell can't protect a marriage that you're sh!tting on by wiping off the sh!t as best as you can and then lying about it.

I know this example isn't perfect, and that not everyone's story can fit this line of thinking perfectly, but I hope my point comes across. Somehow others outside the marriage think/hope/want/expect R when the lie is the difference. 

I suppose this is one reason I like TAM so much. Because at least here, there are many who can be real about the life shattering damage that an affair is without sugar coating it with glimpses of hope for something I know I'll personally never find with my wife again. I'd rather have bad news that is true than good news that leaves me the fool.


----------



## turnera

CantBelieveThis said:


> is the more complex question perhaps one of how could they be so foolish as to not think of the risks and ignore them?


It's not that complicated, CBT. In fact, as humans, we are ALL in danger of feeling this incredible high we feel when doing such things - the drug - and being willing to throw everything away just to have another hit.


----------



## Suspecting2014

CBT, 

How are you doing?


----------



## CantBelieveThis

am doing much better in regards to the overwhelming pain, it just doesnt seem to hurt and be as devastating as it used to be, the meds seem to be helping out a lot.....the thoughts are still there, every single day thou, it is not forgotten by any means.

as I said i would make a decision by year end, and I have decided to fully commit to R. It was a hard decision with a very small margin between R and D thou I have to admit, but in the end the fact that I still lover her and that I cannot stand the thought of another man fathering my children were the heavy hitters in the decision to R.

She still very remorseful and its doing all the right things, I hardly spy on her at all these days, she is always telling me where she is at, what she is doing and calls me immediately as soon as she is off from work and we have long chats everyday and talk about the affair almost daily as well, in some cases she brings it up and is always asking how am I feeling and what can she do to help.

2013 was a really hard year for me, it took its toll for sure on both of us....I am looking for 2014 to be better and its starting off on the right foot it seems, but I am cautious about reading a lot about betrayed folks calling it quits in year 2, there seems to be a lot of that around.

thanks for checking.....the feedback from TAM that I have received on this thread have been phenomenal and I cant be thankful enough to have this kind of support, one of the things I regret the most is not finding TAM on D-day!!!


----------



## jim123

CantBelieveThis said:


> am doing much better in regards to the overwhelming pain, it just doesnt seem to hurt and be as devastating as it used to be, the meds seem to be helping out a lot.....the thoughts are still there, every single day thou, it is not forgotten by any means.
> 
> as I said i would make a decision by year end, and I have decided to fully commit to R. It was a hard decision with a very small margin between R and D thou I have to admit, but in the end the fact that I still lover her and that I cannot stand the thought of another man fathering my children were the heavy hitters in the decision to R.
> 
> She still very remorseful and its doing all the right things, I hardly spy on her at all these days, she is always telling me where she is at, what she is doing and calls me immediately as soon as she is off from work and we have long chats everyday and talk about the affair almost daily as well, in some cases she brings it up and is always asking how am I feeling and what can she do to help.
> 
> 2013 was a really hard year for me, it took its toll for sure on both of us....I am looking for 2014 to be better and its starting off on the right foot it seems, but I am cautious about reading a lot about betrayed folks calling it quits in year 2, there seems to be a lot of that around.
> 
> thanks for checking.....the feedback from TAM that I have received on this thread have been phenomenal and I cant be thankful enough to have this kind of support, one of the things I regret the most is not finding TAM on D-day!!!


Give 110%. There is no shame in R. Do not expect that everything will just go away. That is normal. Continue to work on you. You have to help yourself heal too.


----------



## turnera

what about counseling?


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> am doing much better in regards to the overwhelming pain, it just doesnt seem to hurt and be as devastating as it used to be, the meds seem to be helping out a lot.....the thoughts are still there, every single day thou, it is not forgotten by any means.
> 
> as I said i would make a decision by year end, and I have decided to fully commit to R. It was a hard decision with a very small margin between R and D thou I have to admit, but in the end the fact that I still lover her and that I cannot stand the thought of another man fathering my children were the heavy hitters in the decision to R.
> 
> She still very remorseful and its doing all the right things, I hardly spy on her at all these days, she is always telling me where she is at, what she is doing and calls me immediately as soon as she is off from work and we have long chats everyday and talk about the affair almost daily as well, in some cases she brings it up and is always asking how am I feeling and what can she do to help.
> 
> 2013 was a really hard year for me, it took its toll for sure on both of us....I am looking for 2014 to be better and its starting off on the right foot it seems, but *I am cautious about reading a lot about betrayed folks calling it quits in year 2, there seems to be a lot of that around.*
> 
> thanks for checking.....the feedback from TAM that I have received on this thread have been phenomenal and I cant be thankful enough to have this kind of support, one of the things I regret the most is not finding TAM on D-day!!!


I am really glad about your decision to R, is the end of limbo but the beginning of a long journey.

Very good idea about reading less R failures stories. Even CWI threads can trigger you some times...

Get IC and MC if you can.

If any time in future you decide that cant R remember that you deserve to be happy and at least you tried.

R is a gift BS gives WS every day, is not a must.

Good luck


----------



## VFW

CantBelieveThis said:


> as I said i would make a decision by year end, and I have decided to fully commit to R. It was a hard decision with a very small margin between R and D thou I have to admit, but in the end the fact that I still lover her and that I cannot stand the thought of another man fathering my children were the heavy hitters in the decision to R.


I am glad that you have decide to continue with reconciliation. I think part of the problem that we have in understanding the affair, is that we try to find a logical answer to an illogical situation. Eventually, we have to move to acceptance, though that is not easy and takes time. Additionally, you need to create an environment that bonds you two together.


----------



## Dogbert

turnera said:


> It's not that complicated, CBT. In fact, as humans, we are ALL in danger of feeling this incredible high we feel when doing such things - the drug - and being willing to throw everything away just to have another hit.


So true. Just look at all obese humans who are overindulging in beer, ice cream, cheesecake, and quadruple bypass cheeseburgers. They know they shouldn't because of the health risks involved yet they are too addicted to the dopamine rush in their brains every time they pop these goodies in their mouths.


----------



## Suspecting2014

VFW said:


> CantBelieveThis said:
> 
> 
> 
> as I said i would make a decision by year end, and I have decided to fully commit to R. It was a hard decision with a very small margin between R and D thou I have to admit, but in the end the fact that I still lover her and that I cannot stand the thought of another man fathering my children were the heavy hitters in the decision to R.
> 
> 
> 
> I am glad that you have decide to continue with reconciliation. I think part of the problem that we have in understanding the affair, is that we try to find a logical answer to an illogical situation. Eventually, we have to move to acceptance, though that is not easy and takes time. Additionally, you need to create an environment that bonds you two together.
Click to expand...

Totally agree!!!


----------



## CantBelieveThis

VFW said:


> I think part of the problem that we have in understanding the affair, is that we try to find a logical answer to an illogical situation.


you know, I have changed my thinking on this now, i no longer view her infidelity as anything complex and w/o logic....I actually see it very clearly as acting selfish and entitled, is that simple to me now...when you act that way you can pretty much do anything you want and reason about it. 
I mean how difficult is it for anyone to decide to act completely selfish, abandon our values and do whatever we want w/o consideration to others? not very difficult to do once you decide to do it. So her affair to me was nothing complex or inexplicable anymore, it was plain selfishness, arrogance and entitlement.

And i have told her this recently and made it very clear that if I sense even the slightest demonstration of this behavior ever again, whether is related to infidelity or otherwise, I will come down on her with all I got very pronto...zero tolerance

is my reasoning flawed? is it more to it than am believing now?


----------



## CantBelieveThis

on a slightly different note, gosh I trigger a lot now with anything related to doing anything sexual in a car, I cant stand it and dont think I will ever try again. There are some many threads here with disgusting affair sex in cars in parking lots, it makes me so sick and full of anger.....

I told her months ago I will never even kiss her in the car from now on, we have lost that forever most likely, but is not like we did it much to begin with anyways, definitely not sex, not since we were teenagers dating......so not much is lost

So difficult to believe grown adults going at it in public parking lots inside a car trying to have sex, cheating on their spouses nonetheless....sickening.....<ranting done>


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> you know, I have changed my thinking on this now, i no longer view her infidelity as anything complex and w/o logic....I actually see it very clearly as acting selfish and entitled, is that simple to me now...when you act that way you can pretty much do anything you want and reason about it.
> I mean how difficult is it for anyone to decide to act completely selfish, abandon our values and do whatever we want w/o consideration to others? not very difficult to do once you decide to do it. So her affair to me was nothing complex or inexplicable anymore, it was plain selfishness, arrogance and entitlement.
> 
> And i have told her this recently and made it very clear that if I sense even the slightest demonstration of this behavior ever again, whether is related to infidelity or otherwise, I will come down on her with all I got very pronto...zero tolerance
> 
> is my reasoning flawed? is it more to it than am believing now?


Totally agree, 

No logical explanation, and it mean that the person we love was not force by any external force or complex situation, to betray us and hurt us really deep.

But this is teh way to heal.

Wish you the best, keep posting and venting.

Maybe try a post in Reconciliation. Stop reading new threads for a while, they can mess with your mind.


----------



## G.J.

CantBelieveThis said:


> am doing much better in regards to the overwhelming pain, it just doesnt seem to hurt and be as devastating as it used to be, the meds seem to be helping out a lot.....the thoughts are still there, every single day thou, it is not forgotten by any means.
> 
> as I said i would make a decision by year end, and I have decided to fully commit to R. It was a hard decision with a very small margin between R and D thou I have to admit, but in the end the fact that I still lover her and that I cannot stand the thought of another man fathering my children were the heavy hitters in the decision to R.
> 
> She still very remorseful and its doing all the right things, I hardly spy on her at all these days, she is always telling me where she is at, what she is doing and calls me immediately as soon as she is off from work and we have long chats everyday and talk about the affair almost daily as well, in some cases she brings it up and is always asking how am I feeling and what can she do to help.
> 
> 2013 was a really hard year for me, it took its toll for sure on both of us....I am looking for 2014 to be better and its starting off on the right foot it seems, but I am cautious about reading a lot about betrayed folks calling it quits in year 2, there seems to be a lot of that around.
> 
> thanks for checking.....the feedback from TAM that I have received on this thread have been phenomenal and I cant be thankful enough to have this kind of support, one of the things I regret the most is not finding TAM on D-day!!!


Just spent a few hours reading your betrayal and anyone reading from the start to the 
end would not be surprised with your eventual decision.

You know each other better than most married couples will ever understand each others 
spouse with the horrendous journey you've both gone through and the costs of allowing cracks 
in the relationship to manifest and not take urgent action, more so your wife obviously 
as the affair is all hers.

I.M.O. its a very promising future for you both with the love that comes across from you posts.

In a few more years the kids will partially fly the coup and reading how much you both 
love each other I would expect each of you to appreciate what you have, what you fought for.

I wish you both happiness and long health


ADD
And please, please, make it work


----------



## jim123

The problem you have is you need to work on you. You need to be in control of your life. 

I remember EI told B1, " You will make someone a great husband, wait a minute, you will make me a great husband." That was after B1 worked on himself.

Do not live in fear. Do not have a wife who stays out fear.

Get out and work on you. Be the best you can be. Do not be someone who can not move on again.

R out of strength and not out of weakness.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

thanks for the supportive replies....I just recently realized one of my biggest regrets is not getting on TAM quick enough right after d-day....I did a lot of reading on TAM at first, but I should have posted for help right away but I didnt out of stupid shame for my situation, you go figure!!!

yes, shame, I was ashamed of being cheated on and for weeks could not get the guts to write about it to anyone, how could I ever speak about that about my dear loving wife?!?! goes to show you how naive and innocent some of us were before being cheated on and betrayed, we had that innocence ripped away from us raw....never again.


----------



## Suspecting2014

How are you doing?


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> thanks for the supportive replies....I just recently realized one of my biggest regrets is not getting on TAM quick enough right after d-day....I did a lot of reading on TAM at first, but I should have posted for help right away but I didnt out of stupid shame for my situation, you go figure!!!
> 
> yes, shame, I was ashamed of being cheated on and for weeks could not get the guts to write about it to anyone, how could I ever speak about that about my dear loving wife?!?! goes to show you how naive and innocent some of us were before being cheated on and betrayed, we had that innocence ripped away from us raw....never again.


There is nogthig to be ashame of!

I sugest you open a new thead at R part in TAM. I believe you can get great advice.

Take a look to marriagebuilders website, you may also try a consult Dr. Harley


----------



## VFW

CantBelieveThis said:


> is my reasoning flawed? is it more to it than am believing now?


No you are right on target. However that is usually not a BS first reaction. We try to think what we could have done to prevent this. Next we try to logically reason why a person would do the things that the WS is doing? It isn't logical it is just pure selfishness. Finally we get to the bottom line, is the WS remorseful and willing to put in the work to fix the problem. You naturally at the same time had to decide if you could forgive and move forward with reconciliation. To arrive at these conclusions as quickly as you have, is a feather in your cap.


----------



## sammy3

CBT, 

Good luck with your decision. I hope you are one of the succesful ones. 
At least you have made a decision and will be able to move on and leave all of this crap behind. 

Get off this forum, completely... move on, dont look back say good bye to the world of infidelity, you dont need this world. 

Wish I had it in me as you, to return to the marriage, and hub I had, as my life would just be a zillion times better than it is, but its just always there for me... 

Good luck CBT, just start living as normal of a normal life you can from now on out... leave the past behind... including TAM ... move on make a clean break... 

~sammy


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Triggering today!!!....am 2500 mi away from home on business and having trouble coping for some reason.....one of those times when you just feel like ending it all and throwing the M and the CS away!!


----------



## turnera

Never make decisions when you're upset. Go for a walk, take in a show...treat yourself to something.


----------



## Suspecting2014

CantBelieveThis said:


> Triggering today!!!....am 2500 mi away from home on business and having trouble coping for some reason.....one of those times when you just feel like ending it all and throwing the M and the CS away!!


There will be good days, bad days, and days like after DD? This is 
normal and will fade with time.

Share your feelings with your wife but, as I believe you are, assure 
her you are 100% in R as you decided on New Year?s Eve. She will 
comfort you, even in the distance, but your need to give her the 
opportunity by trying on your end.

Brutal and total honesty is part of R from her and from you! So share 
all you need with her.

Keep venting if needed. You may try to open a new thread in other area 
as Reconciliation to get encouragement to keep going.

Good luck


----------



## Retribution

CantBelieveThis said:


> Triggering today!!!....am 2500 mi away from home on business and having trouble coping for some reason.....one of those times when you just feel like ending it all and throwing the M and the CS away!!


This is normal and will never really go away. Time doesn't heal all wounds and love doesn't conquer all. It sure would be nice if it did, we'd have a lot less infidelity. You will likely deal with this for the rest of your life in one fashion or another. Trauma tends to have this kind of effect.

I have several times heard of forgiveness for something like infidelity being a series of life choices rather than one choice you make and then it's done. If it was one choice, I think we'd see a lot more successful R stories here on TAM and in life. 

I'm sorry CBT. I wish there was some way to take the pain away from something as permanent as infidelity.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

well am relapsing over the past few weeks big time...disappointment, depression and anger are rampant. 
the unpleasant thoughts are once again very strong and very frequent, the urge to leave the M and abandon R is equally strong as well. I keep waiting for this tide to recede but it seems to be taking its sweet time on me  .....even the meds arent helping as they did at the beginning, which its something I expected to be honest, its completely normal.

Never leaving her and never making her feel the consequences of her actions, by giving her my even temporary absence, is causing a lot of regret on me. I can clearly see why that time away from the unfaithful spouse is perhaps a fairly important aspect of recovery for everyone?? I am still committed to R, but the pull to quit is of exquisite strenght and desire, and it does take a toll, its a fight for sure. Its no wonder many dont succeed or dont even bother at all....I have respect for them and their reasons are totally understandable

anyways, hanging in there i shall remain, thoughts or opinions always welcomed, no matter how strong or painful to hear.


----------



## thummper

How is she handling your absence? Lots of tearful calls and texts?


----------



## Q tip

If you feel there's been enough time, WW has "done" all the right things, then be comforted you tried. It is therefore beyond reason for you to heal in the relationship.

R is a brave thing and you are to be commended. It does not always work. You both worked in good faith. You probably knew this going in a year ago. 

Be free and find a good trusting relationship.


(btw, post #6)


----------



## turnera

One thing I know is that you sometimes have to UP your dosage on antidepressants meds.


----------



## Ripper

turnera said:


> One thing I know is that you sometimes have to UP your dosage on antidepressants meds.


Isn't this starting to get just-a-wee-bit dangerous? I'm not a fan of anti-depressants, so I'm not impartial on this, but you shouldn't have to trank yourself out in order to successfully reconcile.


----------



## GusPolinski

Ripper said:


> Isn't this starting to get just-a-wee-bit dangerous? I'm not a fan of anti-depressants, so I'm not impartial on this, but you shouldn't have to trank yourself out in order to successfully reconcile.


Agreed.

And I certainly wouldn't take it upon myself to increase my dosage.

CBT, is this your first extended trip away from home since D-Day?


----------



## turnera

Not necessarily true. Most doctors start off on AD with really low dosages, like micro-sized doses, so that they sometimes have to up the doses two or three times just to get a dosage that makes a difference.


----------



## thummper

CBT you should be applauded for sticking by your wife. It's a really tough time for the both of you. She knows she did a major-league f'up and from your description it looks like she's moving heaven and earth to try and make it right with you. Had it been me, I don't think I could have given my wife a second chance of any kind. I think in this, you're a better man than me. In the end you may find forgiveness to be impossible, but at least you're giving it a chance.


----------



## GROUNDPOUNDER

Just remember, you may be by yourself right now, but you're not alone.

I know I haven't been exactly a shinning beacon on you're attempt at R, but just remember, this isn't a sprint, it's a marathon.

There's going to be peaks and valleys. Your anger will ebb and flow. You should try not to just sit around when you start to feel like this again. Do something, anything, that'll occupy your mind.

Make a to do list, or such. When you find yourself falling into these feelings, moods, you'll start to think about what you "should" have done, or do. You won't serve yourself any favors by stewing.

Imagine if your wife were to call you during one of these dark times. You way say something to her that you'll regret. Even if it was called for, it's not going to help either one of you right now.

When you feel it coming on, get your mind in motion, because a moving target is harder to hit. If you like music, slap on a set of head phones and listen to some of you old time favorites(though I'd suggest steering clear of most country music, like "somebody done somebody wrong" songs.

Don't just hang there like a punching bag and let these thoughts land easy jabs and right crosses. I know. I did this for a few month and it almost cost me my life. One of the best things that I found help "me" was going to a local medieval armor museum. I would walk those halls for hours and the rest of the world would just slip away.


----------



## Jasel

Hang in there. Just read your two threads again to catch up with you. I really think seperating from your wife would have made reconciliation much more bearable for you and would have allowed you to come sense of clarity much more quickly.

But since you've committed to R and its been so long since DDay maybe that ship has sailed.

Are you still on the antidepressants?


----------



## CantBelieveThis

yes am already at the highest recommended dose, anything higher would usually yield minor improvement and worsen side effects. I have been on AD's on and off thru the past 7 years or so, so they are no stranger to me. I know they wont erase your feelings, just dampen the emotions a bit to help cope...but with something as monumental as a betrayal they can only do so much i think.



Jasel said:


> Hang in there. Just read your two threads again to catch up with you. I really think separating from your wife would have made reconciliation much more bearable for you and would have allowed you to come sense of clarity much more quickly.
> 
> But since you've committed to R and its been so long since DDay maybe that ship has sailed.


yes this is exactly how i feel, i curse myself for not having separated from her at all ever....but like you said its been so long that ship has since sailed. The regret is there thou and it just makes everything else harder to deal with. is not that I want to punish her really....is about me and feeling how not having her in my life would be like....almost like I need to know I will be ok without her.



GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> Imagine if your wife were to call you during one of these dark times. You way say something to her that you'll regret. Even if it was called for, it's not going to help either one of you right now.


this does happen indeed, I dont always say something, in fact I often give her the cold shoulder, and she can tell very quickly that am not doing good.
The thing is the pain still feels like it needs to be attended to? I feel like i cant ignore it and am still coping with dealing with the entire betrayal, the thoughts of how could she ever have done this or turn into such person are still there.
This part of accepting that she could have done this is made worse by the fact that back in 2010 we really came close together and sort of reignited our marriage. 
Back then I fully accepted to her how I wasnt there as much to help raise the kids and how she did that mostly on her own (while I worked and travelled a lot on business almost every 2 weeks). I started helping around much more and quit travelling as much while that gave her the opportunity to seek her career and go back to school (which she deeply desired), she had her cosmetic surgeries and lost weight, we took frequent romantic getaways, etc, etc...things I already have detailed on here before.
We became so much closer romantically than ever before so I was under the impression we had the nearly perfect marriage, then i get side blinded with a horrible betrayal under the pretense what she wasnt happy!?!...which has left me in an almost everlasting state of shock that I need to wake up from. 

I have told her, you cant expect to walk up to your spouse one day like you did and just tell them straight up you dont love them anymore, out of the blue like that and w/o warning. You cant do that to someone and expect them to ever be able to ever feel secure with you again!


----------



## CH

CantBelieveThis said:


> but like you said its been so long that ship has since sailed. The regret is there thou and it just makes everything else harder to deal with.


It's never too late to save yourself. Even if one boat is gone, there is always another one ready to take it's place. Never compromise yourself for the marriage. If it's not working, it's just not working, move on.

It's not fair to you or the wife if you have to plaster that fake smile on but you're really dying inside.

You're taking AD and at the HIGHEST DOSE allowed, that alone should say something.

True R is both parties giving 100% to make the marriage great again. If your spouse is moving the world to make it better and you're just not there 100%, it's time to move on IMO.

Whatever you decide, I hope it works out for you and I hope you find true happiness again. People like you deserve it.


----------



## carmen ohio

CantBelieveThis said:


> well am relapsing over the past few weeks big time...disappointment, depression and anger are rampant.
> the unpleasant thoughts are once again very strong and very frequent, the urge to leave the M and abandon R is equally strong as well. I keep waiting for this tide to recede but it seems to be taking its sweet time on me  .....even the meds arent helping as they did at the beginning, which its something I expected to be honest, its completely normal.
> 
> Never leaving her and never making her feel the consequences of her actions, by giving her my even temporary absence, is causing a lot of regret on me. I can clearly see why that time away from the unfaithful spouse is perhaps a fairly important aspect of recovery for everyone?? I am still committed to R, but the pull to quit is of exquisite strenght and desire, and it does take a toll, its a fight for sure. Its no wonder many dont succeed or dont even bother at all....I have respect for them and their reasons are totally understandable
> 
> anyways, hanging in there i shall remain, thoughts or opinions always welcomed, no matter how strong or painful to hear.


CBT,

I, too, went back and reread some of your previous threads and posts. What these make clear is that you have been ambivalent about reconciling with your fWW from the beginning. You seemed ready to pull the plug about six months ago but you were going to wait until the end of the year before making a 'final' decision whether to divorce or stay and try to fix things. But, it would seem, you are no closer to really knowing what you want than when you came here.

I agee with CH. If, nearly two years after your D-Day, you still have to depend on antidepressants to get you through the day, you are not really living and need to consider making major changes in your life. Let me reoffer the advice I gave you back in August about this:



> Dear CBT,
> 
> A few days ago, Suspecting2014 suggested several alternatives for you to consider:
> 
> Quote:
> 1. Learn to forgive and improve yourself so you can be with her and make her turn you into Plan A.
> 
> 2. Even scores (RA) this is bad idea not only because the damage will be bigger but maybe you can be more open to forgive her (I believe you cant). But maybe if divorce her but still be together you can feel better and more in control. Later if thing go well you can remarry, new vowels, etc.
> 
> 3. Leave, just move on and stop this pain for you, her and your kids. You should be ready to have new partners in your life and hers.
> There are, however, less drastic steps you can take in order to break out of the emotional limbo in which you find yourself.
> 
> Suspecting2014's advice and much of what you are feeling is based on the false assumption that you are powerless to change your mental state. But, unless and until you change your thinking you will remain in limbo. In fact, there are many things things you could do to improve your situation and hence your emotional state without making any decision -- for now -- about your marriage.
> 
> For example, you could change careers, take up a new and exciting activity, dedicate a portion of your time to helping others, or begin a serious self-improvement program. The purpose of such action would be three-fold. First, to give you something to look forward to regardless of what you eventually decide to do about your marriage. Second, to introduce a new element in your life that is independent of what your fWW did or is (or is not) doing, thereby freeing you on a regular basis to focus on something else. Third, and perhaps most importantly, to improve your self-esteem. An added benefit is that it would take some of the pressure off your fWW, allowing her to deal better with her own demons and allowing you to see her in a new, better (or worse) light.
> 
> I am reminded of another BH, DevastatedDad, who did exactly this. DD took up flying and while, based on his last posts, he was still struggling with his fWW's infidelity, he found a measure of peace and managed to keep his family together.
> 
> Here's the point: you can't change the past but you have it within your power to _change your future_. You can make small changes or major changes, but any change you make will give you fresh insights into who you are and what you want out of life. Or you can continue to twist in the wind and allow circumstances and others decide your future. The choice is yours. It always has been. You just need to act. If you do, I promise, you will be surprised by the result. Eventually, you will find it much easier to decide what to do about your marriage and you will be more comfortable making a decision either to stay with your fWW or to leave her.
> 
> My advice is to act now and boldly.


In the end, we are all responsible for you own happiness. If our circumstances are not conducive to making us happy, then we owe it to ourselves to change them. Sadly, many seem not to understand this. Others don't have the courage to act upon it.

Don't be like them.


----------



## jim123

This part of accepting that she could have done this is made worse by the fact that back in 2010 we really came close together and sort of reignited our marriage. 
Back then I fully accepted to her how I wasnt there as much to help raise the kids and how she did that mostly on her own (while I worked and travelled a lot on business almost every 2 weeks). I started helping around much more and quit travelling as much while that gave her the opportunity to seek her career and go back to school (which she deeply desired), she had her cosmetic surgeries and lost weight, we took frequent romantic getaways, etc, etc...things I already have detailed on here before.
We became so much closer romantically than ever before so I was under the impression we had the nearly perfect marriage, then i get side blinded with a horrible betrayal under the pretense what she wasnt happy!?!...which has left me in an almost everlasting state of shock that I need to wake up from. 

I have told her, you cant expect to walk up to your spouse one day like you did and just tell them straight up you dont love them anymore, out of the blue like that and w/o warning. You cant do that to someone and expect them to ever be able to ever feel secure with you again! 

How does she explain the disconnect. She was so unhappy with you at the time of the affair while you thought things were great.

The most important thing is that you fix you.


----------



## Suspecting2014

Carmen post got me thinking.

Maybe you are stuck because you are mad at you, not your wife (not anymore), not the affair, not OM but to you.

I believe that you feel that you betrayed yourself after D'Day by staying with her and all the way you managed the whole mess. On top of that the way she was acting (text she sent, etc.) while you were very passive made it worse.

IMO you feel mad at you, very mad, because you feel / think that you betrayed yourself, that you should had deal with all this ordeal in a more dignified way.

So there is nothing more your wife can do as at this moment it is all in you, and only you...

As Carmen pointed you need to change yourself (if I got Carmen post right). 

So what can you do?

Get professional help, if you are not getting any.

Try to live the moment as you cannot change the past. Focus on all you have at this very moment.

Stop thinking it would be like being by your own if you had left your wife back then, this is pointless as you did not and if you do it now it won’t lessen your pain.

Start a new hobby, something just for you that, something you always wanted but you consider not appropriate or that your family would not support, e.g. Buying Harley, spend indecent amount of money on electronic devices, car racing, etc. and ask your wife for support.

Cut the relation with friends, hers and yours, that allowed or promoted the A, even those who feel that your should be OK by now, including her family members if you please

Ask her to change her job, and contribute to paying bills if hasn’t.

]What you shouldn’t do:


A trial separation as this is only going to hurt your wife and your children, and considering that, IMO, you are mad at yourself this is only going to make you feel worse.

I don’t know if you ever consider having a RA. IMO this is a bad idea always a worse in your situation. As you can read on the web, at LS 2 threads I found very clarifying, a RA can take away the pain it would bring different pain and other feeling (shame, guilt, etc.) and if you are having a difficult time dealing with what you have done, or not done, this will make it all worse.
Just one last 
thing, remember that not everybody can R is not a matter of choice, it is matter of being able to or not. If any day your realize that you need to leave and are sure about it, just do it with your head up and don’t look back.

Good luck


----------



## LongWalk

Does your wife look at you with love in eyes?


----------



## blahfridge

Hi Cantbelievethis,

My spouse is now trying to do all the right things as well, but I still am not able to move past what he did. Like you, I didn't insist on a separation when Dday happened seven years ago. In fact, we really didn't speak about it again for a long time afterwards. His affair had been in the past for a few years, as much as I can tell, when I found out about it. 

Our situation is much complicated by the fact that I eventually had an online EA. I think it was my way of rebelling at my situation and most probably it was an exit affair. It woke my H up and now we are in MC. 

When I found out that it was really five women and it had gone on for almost a decade, I insisted on an in house separation. That's where we are at right now, but it may turn into a real separation if it doesn't work out this way. I agreed to this because I can see he is trying now and he loves his kids so much, I know it would kill him to not be in the same house with him.

I do feel much better with him out of the bedroom, but it's still very hard at times to be around him. As I said, he is finally trying, after telling me for a long time that the only reason he did it was because I wasn't having sex with him often enough. He now sees that that is BS, it was his decision and he has to own up to it. He is now in IC to deal with his porn/sex addiction and his OCD.

I care about him very much, despite everything, but I can't say that I love him anymore like a wife should love her husband. I don't know if either of us can live with that, but I am taking it slow. We are both in our fifties now, old enough to look ahead and realize that life is short. He feels like that means we should be content with our lot, but I feel like this may be my last shot at maybe finding some real happiness with someone else. 

Perhaps you need to ask yourself the same question if you are still having such a hard time moving on. It's not too late for you to try a separation. I wish I had done it years ago but I was too afraid for my kids and my ability to make it on my own financially. Not good reasons to stay in a marriage.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

Suspecting2014 said:


> Carmen post got me thinking.
> 
> Maybe you are stuck because you are mad at you, not your wife (not anymore), not the affair, not OM but to you.
> 
> I believe that you feel that you betrayed yourself after D'Day by staying with her and all the way you managed the whole mess. On top of that the way she was acting (text she sent, etc.) while you were very passive made it worse.
> 
> IMO you feel mad at you, very mad, because you feel / think that you betrayed yourself, that you should had deal with all this ordeal in a more dignified way.
> 
> So there is nothing more your wife can do as at this moment it is all in you, and only you...


yes indeed, I am totally angry with myself and how I handled it.....thats for sure. I feel like I disrespected myself a lot during that time and now I have seen how I didnt have to. I am in IC still, but only once every 2 weeks thou.

I am totally committed to R by all means, dont get me wrong. I am just frustrated with how difficult and insurmountable it still feels so many times, I would have thought that by now it wouldnt be as intense, but it is.

I have read in some threads how a lot of BS quit R by the 2 year mark, and not necessarily because of the CS not doing the heavy lifting. I do often still wonder if I have what it takes to make it thru this, or if never really had and that I am just fooling myself into thinking that I can.
When I read how difficult R is I just thought "yea its hard, obviously", but I have been thru hard times before so I can do this, but no, its really *HARD*....harder than I could have ever imagined and in ways I never thought possible.


----------



## CantBelieveThis

LongWalk said:


> Does your wife look at you with love in eyes?


Absolutely.


----------



## drifting on

CantBelieveThis said:


> yes indeed, I am totally angry with myself and how I handled it.....thats for sure. I feel like I disrespected myself a lot during that time and now I have seen how I didnt have to. I am in IC still, but only once every 2 weeks thou.
> 
> I am totally committed to R by all means, dont get me wrong. I am just frustrated with how difficult and insurmountable it still feels so many times, I would have thought that by now it wouldnt be as intense, but it is.
> 
> I have read in some threads how a lot of BS quit R by the 2 year mark, and not necessarily because of the CS not doing the heavy lifting. I do often still wonder if I have what it takes to make it thru this, or if never really had and that I am just fooling myself into thinking that I can.
> When I read how difficult R is I just thought "yea its hard, obviously", but I have been thru hard times before so I can do this, but no, its really *HARD*....harder than I could have ever imagined and in ways I never thought possible.




CantBelieveThis

I didn't handle it correctly from the beginning either, try not to beat yourself up over it. I knew nothing about infidelity, if I had found this site in 2010 I probably wouldn't be a BH. I did everything wrong until I couldn't take it anymore. I turned to the Internet for help and found TAM. Once I found TAM I had knowledge, I began to learn the script and find the weaknesses. I am forever grateful to this site. I learned about reconciliation before I offered it, I knew that it is a gift from me, I knew it would be a long hard road. But once you start going through reconciliation you learn just how hard this really is. There hasn't been one day that I can say that was easy. 

I struggled with each little nuance of the affair, the deception, and the fact she gave herself away. I struggled with depression, was placed on antidepressants, see an IC and an MC. I have therapy with my IC six times a month, she gives me homework like I never had when I was in school. My IC challenges everything down to if I say it's a nice day. So much self reflecting I have done. It wears you down, slowly, then you get a good day and your reborn, only to get hammered the next day fives times as bad. I wish you success in your R.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CantBelieveThis

hi all , just wanting to be back on TAM as an active member, I should have never stopped completely like I did and never posted again, I feel bad for that. I do read on here occasionally and it doesn't necessarily cause triggers, but some of it is very hard to hear, the pain that some new folks are going thru rings close, very close. I will become active again and be part of this awesome online community of people ,sharing a very painful and difficult life experience.

W and I are doing good, she still doing the right things and professing her love, commitment, remorse and regret, etc, we have frequent date night outs, have made a lot of new memories together and the sexual side is very good, no complains there. I still have access to all her methods of communication and it has gotten somewhat boring because there is never anything really, but am careful not to let my guard down still.

As far as I, well the pain of the affair has gotten less frequent and some of the details have begun to fade, its not as vivid but I still think about it at least once a day and it can still become very painful at times, specifically the betrayal aspect of things.

She will occasionally try to feel me out for my stand on renewing our wedding bows, sometimes I tell her it might be possible, others I tell her there is no point as it doesnt guarantee or fix anything, people can still cheat even if they renew their bows...curious how others have considered this if at all.

I have more details to share will come back soon and seek some advice on those, more about me and dealing with things....


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## happyman64

CBT

Good to hear from you and that you posted a positive update.

New posters need to hear your story.

Happy Holidays!

HM


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## CantBelieveThis

one thing am convinced of now, and in my opinion based on my experience, is that the one and only immediate course of action after finding out about infidelity on dday is to file for divorce, no questions asked. I wish I had the wisdom to have done this when I found out, I mean the D can always be stopped, but the key is that the BS needs to send a strong and decisive message to the WS that their cheating will not be put up with, under any circumstance. 

I see so much of this stuff going on where the WS continues cheating and is "undecided" upon discovery, and how they need time to "sort it thru", I mean thats just total garbage and incredibly humiliating for the BS, when discovered the WS should be literally crawling on their feet begging for forgiveness and another chance, not blatantly continue the affair rubbing it on the BS face....for the BS to put up with that causes significant more damage and difficulty in any recovery.


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## LosingHim

CantBelieveThis said:


> one thing am convinced of now, and in my opinion based on my experience, is that the one and only immediate course of action after finding out about infidelity on dday is to file for divorce, no questions asked. I wish I had the wisdom to have done this when I found out, I mean the D can always be stopped, but the key is that the BS needs to send a strong and decisive message to the WS that their cheating will not be put up with, under any circumstance.
> 
> I see so much of this stuff going on where the WS continues cheating and is "undecided" upon discovery, and how they need time to "sort it thru", I mean thats just total garbage and incredibly humiliating for the BS, when discovered the WS should be literally crawling on their feet begging for forgiveness and another chance, not blatantly continue the affair rubbing it on the BS face....for the BS to put up with that causes significant more damage and difficulty in any recovery.


My husband didn't file and hasn't yet. I'm not sure when he will. But saying he will and essentially kicking me out has been enough to open my eyes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## JohnA

Hi, how did the situation with the cop work out ? I got the impression she wasn't interested, but still lacked good judgment,


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## CantBelieveThis

JohnA said:


> Hi, how did the situation with the cop work out ? I got the impression she wasn't interested, but still lacked good judgment,


oh that was nothing, the guy was an idiot...I confronted him and he said he was all "just jokin with her , no reason to get all worked up", blah blah....we havent seen him since but once like 6 months ago....


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## CantBelieveThis

LosingHim said:


> My husband didn't file and hasn't yet. I'm not sure when he will. But saying he will and essentially kicking me out has been enough to open my eyes.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I can see that, its hard for any BS to make that quick decision on 
Dday, they are in shock and afraid to make such a move...I was like that too....


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## GusPolinski

Glad to see that you're still alive and kicking, @CBT.


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## CH

Remember, if they have fallen in love with the OM/OW you will always be plan B, ALWAYS.

Once the WS has decided to leave, they will leave. Why do some come slinking back? Got kicked to the curb by the OM/OW, money and/or no family that will take them in. Then they run back to the one person who would most likely take them back.

And why do you take us back? Because you're so happy that we returned you are blinded by love. Most stay blind and live in misery. Others wake up and make changes for the better, with or without the spouse. And some take the pain for a while before running for the hills.

Remember, when trying to heal. You have to heal yourself 1st, if the WS wants to come along for the journey and help heal the pain then all the better. If not, F them and kick them to the curb like how they threw you away in the 1st place.


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## adriana

CH said:


> *And why do you take us back? Because you're so happy that we returned you are blinded by love.* Most stay blind and live in misery. Others wake up and make changes for the better, with or without the spouse. And some take the pain for a while before running for the hills.



I hate to burst your bubble but your wife hasn't stayed with you because you are all that and a bag of chips and she was so hopelessly in love with you. More likely it was because she is Asian and it is culturally expected of her to stay with her cheating husband. On the bright side, Asian women seem to know how to discretely get their revenge and there are a lot of self-delighted, unsuspecting anything Asian cuckolds out there. Trust me on that!

Sorry for thread-jacking.


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## CantBelieveThis

I feel am reaching closer to forgiveness, thou with fits and bouts of course, but here is the reason why....
I too did screw up once many years ago, it wasnt relationship related, it was work related, I knew what I was doing was wrong and I kept doing it and then it caught up with me...my boss at the time whom is a great person, and still a close friend now, gave me a big break and a second chance. 
But I vividly recall feeling so horrible about what I had done and wishing so badly for a second chance, because I knew in my mind I would never ever go there again. The guilt was horrible and the desire to be given a chance to prove myself again was incredible high, I guess this is what they call "cheaters guilt" but I tell you if felt very genuine to me, it wasnt fake. Recalling these feelings is whats bringing me closer to forgiving her A. I have always believed everyone deserves a second chance, but during my incident I thought I wasnt going to get one, but I did and I am still thankful for it.
So, question is, is it wrong to approach forgiving infidelity like this? I do see her guilt and remorse in her eyes for the last couple years...but I cant say that her A doesnt still hurt me badly, and that prevents forgiveness....but recalling my own feelings years ago does seem to make it somewhat more likely I will, not yet, but perhaps at some point in the future?


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## VFW

The thought process is the same, but first the offender has to be contrite for what they have done wrong. Without the person knowing what they have done wrong, accepting responsibility and committing themselves to doing whatever it takes to fix the relationship, then reconciliation cannot be successful. Your boss took a chance on you and you rewarded him with your dedication. You are taking the same gamble and could be wrong. I too took the same chance and was rewarded with another affair, however I don't regret taking the chance, but you do open yourself up to be hurt. You have to be honest with yourself and ask yourself if she is worth the gamble?


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## CantBelieveThis

VFW said:


> You have to be honest with yourself and ask yourself if she is worth the gamble?


thanks for that, yeah I do she is worth the gamble....but what is it about an affair that makes it feel so vile and wrong and tough to get past? it must be how its targeted only at one person, the unknowing spouse and how can they look you in the face while committing their wrong, it feels so much more like a personal attack.....what I did, while it does share some poor actions, I dont feel was targeted at anyone in specific, was it knowingly? yes it was but it wasnt a personal attack like an affair.....I dont know, just feels very different (and lets put aside the PA aspect of it, which is totally disgusting to say the least)


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## GROUNDPOUNDER

I think the indecision about whether to file for D, or attempt a R, that most BS's face in the first hour, days, even weeks is natural.

Your heart is telling you that you should try and R with the person your WS WAS, but your brain is telling you that you should D the person they've now BECOME. You would have never agreed to marry them had you had any idea that s/he was capable of cheating on you. But now faced with the grim reality of what they've done, you struggling good memories and the bad reality.

How many of us had said "I would never stay married to a cheater.", then when it happens we can't quite throw the switch on to D them for it?

Do I try to salvage the marriage, based on the past, or do I refuse to "settle" for the spouse I now have? A seemingly much easier decision to make when you're on the outside, looking in. A monumental crossroad of life when you're deciding it while standing on ground zero.

Knowing what I know now and seeing what I've seen since my world blew up eons ago, I would suggest that the BS file for D a.s.a.p., after they "hear the news". If the WS does anything less then begging for a second chance and all that comes after(exposure, NC letter, transparency, etc..) ounce you've informed them of you filing for D, then you holding out for her/him would not have worked for long anyway.


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## JohnA

I think before forgiveness comes acceptance that the adultery took place. Actually I think it comes even before reconciliation. Please note I said "took place" which is a lot different with being ok with it.


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## the guy

Speaking of "totally disgusting" ......if you know my story then you know how disgusting me and my old lady were to each other.

So with that said, having been giving a second chance my self I gave my old lady her second chance.

And ya, it is a gamble we *both* take, but I know in the deepest part of my being I will never hit her again and yet my old lady takes a gamble on that.

Now......if she feels the same way I do and she never phuckes another guy we have something to work with and *my* gamble pays out.

In fact it will be a whole six years this Feb. that all this shyt went down......so far so good!


For what it's worth it does take a lot of grace to be forgiving....especially when the attacks on one doing the forgiving are so personal.


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## CantBelieveThis

GROUNDPOUNDER said:


> I would suggest that the BS file for D a.s.a.p., after they "hear the news". If the WS does anything less then begging for a second chance and all that comes after(exposure, NC letter, transparency, etc..) ounce you've informed them of you filing for D, then you holding out for her/him would not have worked for long anyway.


spot on...me too...the only advice i will now give someone that just found out is to file for D immediately, no questions asked. This should be non-negotiable with the CS until they come to their senses, kill the A, kill the fog and beg for 2nd chance like if their life depended on it....
this is one of the things i regret not doing the most. The problem is the poor folks that come here after just having had their DDay are in such shock and fear they will hardly listen to filing for D as an option, they will think we are crazy angry BS's, and they are also still in love with their CS too so they feel filing for D will drive them away...so filing for D is usually the last thing they will consider, I know because I was there myself, its sad but if we only had a way to convince them that immediately filing for D will save them a lot of pain and dignity, and slap some much needed reality to the CS, is the way to go.....


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## CantBelieveThis

the guy said:


> Speaking of "totally disgusting" ......if you know my story then you know how disgusting me and my old lady were to each other.


what I found disgusting the most was how she kept having sex with me and him at the same time...she claims she never did both of us in the same day and this was one of her ways to make it feel better....

if she wanted to share her body, thats fine, its hers, I cant stop her...but I did not want to be shared with someone else!! thats short of abuse or something like that...am a very "clean" type person and knowing that happened still kills me, not as bad as it used to, but still hurts like hell.


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## turnera

CantBelieveThis said:


> this is one of the things i regret not doing the most. The problem is the poor folks that come here after just having had their DDay are in such shock and fear they will hardly listen to filing for D as an option, they will think we are crazy angry BS's, and they are also still in love with their CS too so they feel filing for D will drive them away...so filing for D is usually the last thing they will consider, I know because I was there myself, its sad but if we only had a way to convince them that immediately filing for D will save them a lot of pain and dignity, and slap some much needed reality to the CS, is the way to go.....


I think the best way to accomplish this is for someone to make a cheat sheet of links of all the BHs who have done just that - immediately filed - so that the newbie BH will read those threads first, and see that it does work or at least has a better chance than begging.


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## the guy

Being wired completely different, I wanted to get it 1st...thinking phucking her before she went out would scratch that itch so no on would tempt her.

Granted I'm sure I got sloppy seconds when she was getting home and I was leaving for work.....but again "wired different then most".

Little did I know at the time it wasn't about just phucking.....a lot of it had to do with some sensitive Sal making her feel special....in the end both me and the OM,s were just using her for sex! The thing was is she knew that it was just two completely different kinds of sex. Hell if i had some were soft to land I'd pull her on top if not I'd bend her over. It was the OM's that kissed, held and romanced her.

It may seem odd to you and all the other fine folks here, but the most disgusting part was the deceit....hell she should have just left me....she had every right to!

For what it's worth....those day are long gone.

Now that we have grown up and we no longer party, fight, and figure out how to bail each other out of county we are much healthier. LOL

Hell we are grandparents now and neither one of can fight like we used to.....unless it was with another grandma or grandpa. LOL


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## the guy

Speaking of "newbie BH".....I get to relive that moment in 3 weeks, 5 days, and about 15 hours!

I think I'm going to follow her around in my truck...you know....just so she hasn't forgotten the day. LOL

Or

I'll call her from a blocked phone number and ask her " was your husband suspicious when you got home" with a pic of my penis!

I think I'll go with the text.....that has "6 years ago today was dday" written all over it. Then I'm going to do some kind of "50 shades of the-guy" kind of thing on her! LOL....


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