# relationships, abuse, and legal issues



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

To save everyone a bit of time clicking my profile, I'm Male, late 40's been married over 25 years. Currently kicking the fledglings out of the nest. 

I've read and participated in this forum for quite some time, but this is the first time I have started a thread here. Just this morning I posted a nasty reply and followed it up with a refusal to defend my stance and a promise to tell the tale in another place. This is that place.

Recently I had a disturbing experience. I'm still not over it and I need to talk a bit. I was reading a thread and there were several references to "gaslighting". I had no idea what that meant bur with the help of Google I soon was in contact with an abuse hotlines website. Aside from improving my education they had a list of symptoms. After ticking off half the symptoms I started to worry. It's been a few stressful years and I'm not on top of my game. But, the lost and confused feelings I've had about my marriage relationship are definitely not normal for me. I decided to test the waters by talking with an online advocate to see what the thought. I was referred to several articles, and given an invitation to the world. (feel free to go anywhere but here).

As a result of reading more from the abuse protection / prevention viewpoint I've come to worry about a lot of the standard advice we give here. Much of what is commonly advised is considered abusive. Voice activated Recorders, key loggers, The real threat of divorce, and many more. So many things that a person could quickly be paralyzed by caution. 

Now the end of this experience has left me with the sure conclusion that no mater what is done to me it is o k and what ever I do is abusive. The anti Male tone of everything I read was disheartening. 

So I snapped. I'm sick and tired of being convicted for the crimes of others. I'm tired of being in trouble for things I intended to be good. Today I'm tired of playing with the deck stacked against me. I just want to take my ball and go home.

I don't know how anyone will be able to respond to this. I don't need much advice. I just needed my own space to explain.
MN


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Mr. Nail said:


> Much of what is commonly advised is considered abusive. Voice activated Recorders, key loggers, The real threat of divorce, and many more.


Not abusive.

Just because someone else may think so.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

I also think one thing that can be missing if you just go down a checklist like that is intent. 

Does a person use a keylogger because their spouse is suddenly distant, secretive and won't tell them what's wrong when something obviously is so, coupled with some other signs, it seems an affair is a strong possibility?

Or is a person using a keylogger because they think their house/their spouse, therefore no privacy even if the spouse hasn't done anything to warrant suspicion?

Same thing with divorce threats - does every argument end with someone screaming "just leave then" or "I should just divorce you, you biotch/azzhole"?

Or is it in the context of a discussion where one spouse tells the other that a particular issue or set of issues is resulting in serious unhappiness that needs to be addressed or else the only other way to be happy is to divorce and start over?

Are these words and actions being used to control, guilt or manipulate? Or are they used to uncover lies and discover truths, to emphasize the seriousness of the marital condition?

Gaslighting is manipulative - it is a series of lies meant to make the other person doubt the truth that they know and even begin to question their own sanity. Real gaslighting is for the purpose of confusing, disorienting and creating doubt of reality. The result is a person who is taken aback enough by surprise and confusion that they can be easily manipulated to the whims of the person doing the gaslighting. 

It is also constant - a repeated campaign that eats away at the psyche of a person making them question the things they do and say; makes them question their own perception of reality. Did I really do that? Did I really say that? Maybe I meant to say this or that and it came out wrong. Maybe I did that because of xyz when I really meant to do abc. Maybe I didn't remember that right. 

This constant state of self doubt works in the favor of the abuser. Someone confused is hesitant, non-assertive, acquiescent and full of self-doubt. That is NOT someone strong enough to stand up for themselves and keeps them in a lesser status or role in the relationship. The gaslighter wants to have the upper hand always.

We are all human and that means our advice is not infallible. I see it, too. The depressed wife on FB late at night? Several man instantly assume she's cheating. It could be her SAHM status and her depression make her feel disconnected and by spending hours reading updates and looking at photos of friends, family and classmates, she feels connected to people and less anxious. I try to not assume. I'm sure at times I do because I'm human. 

So if there are a lot of women here who have been in controlling or abusive relationships, their advice will likely reflect that. If there are a lot of men with WAWs on here, their replies will reflect that. I try to take those replies with - not just a grain of salt, but with compassion for the experiences that led to those knee-jerk reactions.


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## NotLikeYou (Aug 30, 2011)

I'm not sure who you were talking to that has the stance that VARs are abusive. As I see it, someone can hold this viewpoint and either be truly evil, or just foolish.

Searching for the truth is always a good thing, in just about every matter of importance. When you deploy a VAR, you are going to get truth. It seems like in TAM, the truth is always a cheating spouse, but what if the spouse isn't cheating?

You get that truth, too.

And, in that case, you hopefully get to feel guilty about doubting your spouse after all, but that's between you and your conscience.

Its possible to fake a principled stand for privacy, that VARs are an invasion thereof.

And there are people out there who are overly paranoid, suspicious, and insecure, that might set up a VAR when reasonable people would not find it justified.

But to make a blanket statement "VAR = abuse," well, you either don't care about the truth, or are actively opposed to other people seeking it out.

But, really, I wouldn't get too worried about it, or let other people dictate what is and isn't abusive so broadly.

And whatever you do, don't start ranting about it out loud wherever you are.

Somebody might have put a VAR in your room......


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Oh, and PS to Mr. Nail - now you know how we women feel reading PUA stuff and other misogynistic threads.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

At first I felt that if I had the symptoms of abuse I must be abused. Then I thought if I am abused someone should help me. Then I realized that no one would. Then I started to fix it myself. My current evaluation is that it is not indeed gas lighting but withdrawal of affection. At least there is evidence to support that diagnosis.
MN


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Oh, and PS to Mr. Nail - now you know how we women feel reading PUA stuff and other misogynistic threads.


I know that I just got punished for another man's crimes again


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> I know that I just got punished for another man's crimes again


Dude, climb out of the victim chair, you'll be more comfortable.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> Dude, climb out of the victim chair, you'll be more comfortable.


He's definitely in the mindset of the victim.

Not a good place to be. 

And don't get me wrong, I understand, I've been there. I'm there sometimes even nowadays. But you gotta break the cycle.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

lenzi said:


> He's definitely in the mindset of the victim.
> 
> Not a good place to be.
> 
> And don't get me wrong, I understand, I've been there. I'm there sometimes even nowadays. But you gotta break the cycle.


You are right, So is Futz. I'm having a lot of trouble breaking out of this. I can't seem to stay on top. the trouble is there is no advantage to being here. I just can't decide if I want to Play against the odds or find a different game.
MN


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Mr Nail
I think that spying is wrong, but I don't see it as gas-lighting.

. I consider any surveillance of ones't partner to be abusive and in my book completely unacceptable. Leave if you wan't but don't spy.

I will never spy on my spouse. If I'm that sure something is wrong I will leave. If I ever discover I am being spied on, I will leave, weather or not there was something for them to find. 

This has nothing to do with being male or female. 

If you are unhappy, then as you say, take your ball and go home, or go play somewhere else. Surveillance will not make you happy. Go find someone you love and who loves you and enjoy your life. Why waste effort trying to discover the exact crimes of someone who you dislike and for whom you have no respect or love?


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Hi Richard,
Spying is not a deal breaker for me. I've always been a believer in implied consent. But I don't currently spy. Nor am I out to catch a cheater. The deal breaker for me has always been Abuse. Part of why it hurts so much to be accused of it. Now I'm trying to decide how I feel about emotional abuse. 
I'm certainly not interested in starting a new game.
MN


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> Hi Richard,
> Spying is not a deal breaker for me. I've always been a believer in implied consent. But I don't currently spy. Nor am I out to catch a cheater. The deal breaker for me has always been Abuse. * Part of why it hurts so much to be accused of it.* Now I'm trying to decide how I feel about emotional abuse.
> I'm certainly not interested in starting a new game.
> MN


I don't want to pile on and I think you get it but just in case you don't, the part I bolded is what you just did to EnjoliWoman.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Nucking Futs said:


> I don't want to pile on and I think you get it but just in case you don't, the part I bolded is what you just did to EnjoliWoman.


O K let's go there. Not to argue about it but to examine what happened. I'm willing to agree that I shouldn't have lashed out at someone who was trying to help. I felt bad as soon as I did it. All I can say is I'm a bit raw today. 

Oh I just can't express it. It's exactly the same thing that is mucking up my brain. If I don't fight back at least inside my own head I'll lose myself. My feelings are not trivial. They are not excused because some other man objectifies women. All my life I've been taught not to fight against women so I have no way to defend myself. Even if I wasn't being attacked. 

Thanks all for sticking with me. This is all strange territory for me.
MN


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> O K let's go there. Not to argue about it but to examine what happened. I'm willing to agree that I shouldn't have lashed out at someone who was trying to help. I felt bad as soon as I did it. All I can say is I'm a bit raw today.
> 
> Oh I just can't express it. It's exactly the same thing that is mucking up my brain. If I don't fight back at least inside my own head I'll lose myself. My feelings are not trivial. They are not excused because some other man objectifies women. All my life I've been taught not to fight against women so I have no way to defend myself. Even if I wasn't being attacked.
> 
> ...


EnjoliWoman hurt your feelings and you lashed out at her. I don't for a single second think she intended to hurt you and I wouldn't have taken what she posted the way you did, but that's not really the point. The point is that she was able to hurt you because you accepted her authority over you. Not consciously, and that phrase "accepted her authority" is inartful but I'm brain farting here. Any way, she was able to hurt you because you took in what she said and accepted it. She was able to hurt you because you _let_ her hurt you. And you did that because you don't value yourself enough.

I've gotten into it with people on this board several times. I've been banned twice for being rude. For the record, the second time I wasn't rude, I was mis-interpreted, but whatever. Both of the people that complained about me being rude allowed me to get into their heads. I wasn't trying to get into their heads, but I did.

On another occasion I got into it with Blonde. We went back and forth for a while. Blonde didn't get mad, because she doesn't give a rats rosey red rectum what I think. She's willing to argue with me but she values herself more than she values me, just like I value myself more than I value her. 

I decided long ago that I didn't care what most people think. The only ones that can hurt my feelings are the ones I let into my emotional center, my loved ones. You need to be more selective about who you let in.

There, I think I've beat you about the head about this enough. Although that's what you're supposed to do to a nail.


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## lenzi (Apr 10, 2012)

Nucking Futs said:


> EnjoliWoman hurt your feelings and you lashed out at her.


Oh, just stop already.

He didn't lash out at anyone.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

now we are getting somewhere


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## Nucking Futs (Apr 8, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> I know that I just got punished for another man's crimes again





lenzi said:


> Oh, just stop already.
> 
> He didn't lash out at anyone.


Bull ****


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Oh, and PS to Mr. Nail - now you know how we women feel reading PUA stuff and other misogynistic threads.


:iagree: QFT


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Mr. Nail said:


> Now the end of this experience has left me with the sure conclusion that no mater what is done to me it is o k and what ever I do is abusive. The anti Male tone of everything I read was disheartening.


I'm having a very hard time understanding what your issue is.

You bring up things like VARs, key loggers, threats of divorce as things that can be considered to be used as abuse.

Why do you say that what is done to you is ok? What is being done to you?


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

It sounds as if you were accused of abuse because someone (wife, I assume?) had an experience with another man in the past who did the same thing which was also perceived as abusive, whether it was or not.

Therefore you are experiencing a feeling of defeat based on the male bashing you found when doing a little soul searching. If you were searching for the truth in your actions, the internet will not tell you that. Only you know the motive for any of your actions.

I realize you are "thinking aloud" and therefore your thoughts are a work in progress. However, I'm results oriented by nature so the victim mentality is lost on me. 

So you feel your actions were NOT abusive, but were open-minded enough to consider that perhaps they were. Now you feel disheartened by the anti-male propaganda you read. Have I interpreted your words here correctly?

Why are these external sources of validation so important to you?

Can you not rationally discuss with your accuser the actions that led to your questioning your motives and intent?

It seems you are being deliberately vague.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Ele,
You ask a question that deserves an answer. Part of the problem with this thread. Is that for general public warning I brought up that the Abuse prevention / protection group considered VAR's, Key loggers, and the real threat of divorce to be abusive. People thought that that was the point of the post. I understand that these are tools in resolving a serious marriage breaking infidelity problem. I've never understood the right to absolute privacy, I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist. Anyway they don't seem to think that cheating, physical affairs, and general infidelity are abusive, at least I haven't found that yet.
You see I've wandered off and not answered your question. What is being done to me that is acceptable to this incompetent abuse protection / prevention group? (thanks to Nucking Futs for telling me to stop giving them authority they have proved the don't deserve) One of the things that has left me feeling "confused . . ., non-assertive, acquiescent and full of self-doubt"(Enjoli) is being promised sex for a long time only to have that yanked away at the last moment. What kTc's husband called chasing the carrot. What the abuse advocates would call withdrawal of affection. Instead of seeing this as the damaging manipulative behavior that it is in my case. The worker quickly jumped to the conclusion that since I was not happy with the amount of sex I was getting that I was obviously begging and pestering my wife to the point of sexual harassment. I was directed to advice about consent, which advised me to continuously check to see if it was o k to proceed to the next step. While that advice is fine for new couples who need to understand boundaries, it is hopeless for dealing with a Low Drive partner who just sees it as even more pestering. 
So I went to an authority on abuse to talk about my symptoms, and was told that expecting affection was the crime not withholding it. I knew they were wrong, but I still accepted their authority which I should have questioned, had I been strong enough. 
And that is why I'm walking around all prickly hurting people who are trying to help me.
Now that I have been helped to understand that, I have the tool to fix the problem. Which in the end is all a handy man needs.
Thanks to everyone for getting me through this.
MN


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Enjoli, 
Thanks for returning, I'll try to answer all your questions. I also need to apologize to you. What I did was wrong, But beyond that I put you into a position that you did not volunteer for or want. I'm sorry I did that to you.



EnjoliWoman said:


> It sounds as if you were accused of abuse because someone (wife, I assume?) had an experience with another man in the past who did the same thing which was also perceived as abusive, whether it was or not.
> 
> Can you not rationally discuss with your accuser the actions that led to your questioning your motives and intent?


You have already noted from the previous reply that my accuser was the worker from the abuse website. So with their invitation to the world I'm pretty much shut off from resolving the problem there. They operate on statistics and for the sake of safety make certain assumptions. I could file a complaint, but I doubt it would yield me any help. What you bring up here about my wife is another story altogether. I feel it has bearing on the situation So I will introduce the facts to the forum in hopes of better understanding and more help. My wife was sexually abused as a teenager. I was emotionally abused starting at a younger age. We probably aren't so good for each other. I frequently have a lot of trouble discussing this kind of thing with her. It's a minefield for both of us.



EnjoliWoman said:


> I realize you are "thinking aloud" and therefore your thoughts are a work in progress. However, I'm results oriented by nature so the victim mentality is lost on me.
> 
> So you feel your actions were NOT abusive, but were open-minded enough to consider that perhaps they were. Now you feel disheartened by the anti-male propaganda you read. Have I interpreted your words here correctly?
> 
> ...


This is a separate but related issue that is part of the problem. I am by nature submissive. This is either cause or effect of the childhood emotional abuse I am only now coming to understand. (It is also likely the reason I accepted you as having more authority than you desired or accepted) I accept my submissiveness and I pretty well understand it. This is Why I need external validation. This is why I choose the role of victim. It is what I am comfortable with. 

Yes I am being deliberately vague as I trust more I share more. I know trickle truth. 

Today I will not accept incompetent authority. I will pull in my spines and accept that most people really are good intentioned. I will not expect others to solve my problems.

MN


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

If there is cause & suspicion (a spouse brushing you aside, caught lying, etc)...I don't think Spying on them is any more wrong than , when our teens are acting rebellious, hanging with a bad crowd, too secretive, and you root through their rooms to uncover the sh** they are into ... too bad the parents of those Columbine killers didn't do this..

Never used it, never been used on me.. but if I was acting all suspicious, affection withered like a dead flower... time not accounted for, refusing to discuss our issues... and I'm supposed to be your spouse, one with you..that's just not OK.. it's obstinate, ugly and unworkable.. something's gotta give...what's the other supposed to do.. should it be any surprise one may consider this as an option?? 

Whose fault is it ? 

I'd hire a PI if I had the money.. just so I could present the evidence all wrapped up in a nice package -along with divorce papers...all is fair in love and war.. if their betrayal is 1st, why feel guilty!

I can understand anyone wanting to get to the TRUTH, when the other is a withholder...for whatever that is worth.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

SA, 
Thanks for chiming in I'm perfectly happy with the topic sliding to surveillance now. 
My Wife says I think too much. Lately I started thinking, what would you do if you knew there was a VAR in your car. I'm such a Smart Alec that I would likely plant false evidence, or fart loudly. I bet VAR planters have to listen to a lot of radio and off tune sing along.
MN


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

NEW POST Fresh Frustration,

I see a lot of requests to keep all your posts together. So rather than start a new thread I'll just go on here. I spent the weekend alone with my wife. She spent about 30 daytime hours in bed reading. So although I had no responsibilities Friday eve Saturday or Sunday. We spent about 2 hours together. Half of that time was spent swimming. When I swim my head is underwater so there is no conversation. After that we went out for a Brunch. That's it, the whole weekend gone and no connection. Now before you start thinking and making assumptions, there was a sexual encounter in there. I just can't remember when it was. 

You have read here about Candy Crush addiction. It's more like that. My wife and I are both seriously avid readers. We have been since we met. My current book was a classic of Science Fiction from the 60's, a bit of a slog, if you know what I mean. She did a young adult fantasy series, featherweight fluff. Yes she chain read. One book to the next on a kindle. So I was wanting breaks and interaction and stuff, but she was happy to escape for endless hours. 

Anyway Monday night rolls around. Dinner and the changing of the guard. She goes to work, I go to bed. She woke up early enough to cook. After a weekend of solitude, I wasn't much in the mood to be close so I watched some TV while she cooked. She was pretty grouchy by the time she finished cooking, and I was pretty sure I had earned some reprimands. but nothing. So, stupidly, I asked. "Oh I'm just a bit dizzy" So medicate and off to work, no trouble.

So, was I looking for trouble? as in bad attention is better than no attention. I was certainly frustrated enough. 

Anyway Feel free to discuss
MN


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

One man's spying is another man's very sophisticated McMansion real time internet capable DVR


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