# I just screwed up



## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

I think I might have a problem... and it has led me to make one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made, and I'm not sure what to do about it.

My wife and I have been married for 14 years. She has a history of being sexually abused, which has led to a lot of complications for our sex life - the chief complaints from my end being there's not enough of it, and what there is is extremely limited in scope: she doesn't touch me, no oral either way, no anal (my fetish), just me performing foreplay on her using my hands, then missionary and/or doggy style.

Recently she's been having a lot bad dreams in which she's been threatened, sexually.

My mistake: tonight we went to sleep with her hand on my chest. I woke up about 1am with a raging erection, and her hand was close to it. I put my erection in her hand and was enjoying being touched, even if it was without her knowledge or consent.

This has happened once before, and at that time she went along with it, but I was told that she didn't like it and she hoped I wouldn't do it again. At another time, I tried moving her hand lower (while she was awake) and she made sure I knew that she didn't want me doing that again.

So why did I do it again? The only answer I can give is that I miss being touched so much that I'm willing to risk everything to get it... but that doesn't excuse my action.

So, on to the reason I'm posting: what do I do now? She's upstairs in the bedroom crying, close to vomiting, apparently deciding that I'm what she's been scared of for the past few weeks of threatening dreams.

I know I've screwed up pretty badly here. I had zero intention of hurting her, but I've hurt her in pretty much the worst way possible. 

I love my wife, even with the difficulties we've had, and continue to have. I want to fix this mistake. I know I can't do that overnight, but... What do I do?


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## soulsearch (Aug 2, 2013)

is she in therapy? if yes, get an appointment asap. if no, get her an appointment asap.

this is something she needs professional help with. YOU didn't do anything, but her world view is distorted by the mental damage she's suffered from the abuse. that's going to need help to untangle.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

I don't think suggesting that SHE'S the one to need therapy is going to go over very well. 



> YOU didn't do anything


But I did... I was disrespectful of her feelings, history, and personal space, and by the letter of the law committed a sexual assault on her by forcing unwanted sexual contact without her knowledge or consent.

Edit: I think she might be packing a bag to leave right now


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Unless she's willing to start doing the work to heal from the damage caused by her sexual abuse, then she has no business being in a monogamous marriage.

It's perfectly reasonable to expect the person you're married to to touch you. 

You're not in a marriage, you're in a hostage situation.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Lyris said:


> You're not in a marriage, you're in a hostage situation.


Kinda feels like that, sometimes, to be honest. 2 kids, she's a stay-at-home with no degree and with medical problems that prevent physical work...

But even so, I'm not sure what to do about it. There's 14 years of history of the power balance being shifted to her side, and I don't know how to counter that.

All that aside, I still feel like she has a point - I crossed a line tonight, and I need to deal with that.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

If you're going to be married, you have a responsibility to be emotionally healthy enough to be in a normal marriage.

Your wife clearly isn't. But I bet you knew that before you married her, so that's on you.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Lyris said:


> I bet you knew that before you married her, so that's on you.


I knew she had a history, but our relationship was highly active for a long time (still no touching and no oral, but lots of other stuff that made up for it), and it's only more recently (last 3 years) that it's taken this steep dive leading to where we're at today - and a big part of where we're at today, I think, is due to her medical issues which make it painful for her to be touched.

But since we've established that I'm the weak one in the relationship, can we move past that and start suggesting what I do to work through my mistake?

Trying to argue that she shouldn't be mad at me for it isn't going to be a viable option.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You did nothing wrong. You are not the abuser. You are her husband. Sex is a loving act in a marriage. Until she sees this, neither of you will be happy in your marriage.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

You crossed a line that you agreed to, you're right about that. But it seems (as others have pointed out) that the line was there only because your wife hasn't healed from the abuse she suffered earlier in life. 

So now you're in this situation... How do you fix things? I'm guessing you've already apologized profusely for crossing the line. So at this point, I think you two need some outside intervention. What about starting with marriage counselling, not individual counselling for your wife? Try to find someone with experience with couples in your situation. I would suspect that individual counselling will be suggested for your wife in pretty short order, but at least it wouldn't be coming from you.

If your wife refuses MC, then you have some tough decisions to make, as does she. At best, your relationship will eventually come back to the way it was, which was obviously unacceptable to you. 

C


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

What do you want? Are your strong enough to use this intentional violation of her boundary to promote healing?

If so, admitting you intentionally crossed a boundary is first. Apologizing for pushing her before she was ready. Apologizing for breaking her tenuous hold on trust. Apologizing for how your desire to feel loved became a selfish demand. Then let things cool off for a week or so.

Bring it up again, apologize again, only this time you ask her why it's okay for you to go without feeling her love while she makes her personal boundaries more and more strict leaving you out in the cold.

Bring up your version of what a loving healthy sex life looks like. Explain why sex isn't just sex to a man, although lots of women see it as exactly that. Teach her how you view sex and why her appreciation of your body is important to you, both is sexual and non sexual ways.

There is good help out there, she just has to go get it.


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## ladywillow (Oct 31, 2013)

Stop your crying and act like a man.

If she doesn't help herself then there is no way you can help her.

She needs to fix this problem. It isn't your fault if she can't touch you and it is a bit selfish of her to try and keep you in a relationship where that doesn't happen.

And then she goes and tries to justify that she's had these nightmares over you? Please.

Kick her to the curb and find someone that can actually stand to touch you.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Yikes, some stunning insensitivity from certain posters on this thread! OP, listen to Anon Pink. She's a smart lady who knows what she's talking about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

Lemme see if I get this:
She told you the first time, a while back, that forcing her to touch you when she's sleeping (and thus waking her up) triggers her, yet you did it again any way?

Is that it?

Sure, she needs therapy. And you need a hard lesson in reality: stop it.

Your actions are selfish. How to fix this? Don't ever do it again. If you can't handle how she is now, there is no way you'll survive when she's going through treatment for her past abuse. This isn't her being an ass, this you being insensitive to someone who has traumatized and injured, whom you're re-injured with your actions.

You need IC as well, to learn how to uphold boundaries and learn respect.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Rotorhead77 said:


> I think I might have a problem... and it has led me to make one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made, and I'm not sure what to do about it.
> 
> My wife and I have been married for 14 years. She has a history of being sexually abused, which has led to a lot of complications for our sex life - the chief complaints from my end being there's not enough of it, and what there is is extremely limited in scope: she doesn't touch me, no oral either way, no anal (my fetish), just me performing foreplay on her using my hands, then missionary and/or doggy style.
> 
> ...



First of all, you did nothing wrong!!!

Your wife was sexually abused and never got the help she needed to heal. Now she is married to you and you get her baggage.

You didn't abuse her!!!

All you did was put her hand on your erection because you woke up hard and in the mood (like most guys) and you miss the physical touch, variety of sex and sex isn't enough in general.

Now she is upstairs crying just because you put her hand on your penis??? For real????

That's harmless. She is totally over reacting. It's not like you had anal sex with her while she was asleep, like another poster did. It was just her hand on your penis, and nothing more.

She needs to get therapy and fast.

And since she isn't taking care of your needs, which she is supposed to do out of love, I don't blame you for being weak and heaven forbid, put her hand on your penis. You are her hubby after all....:scratchhead:


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

First off, thanks to everyone for both the supportive and the critical feedback.

I admit that what I did was insensitive and selfish, and I acknowledge that I shouldn't do it again. No argument there.

So far today she's been extremely subdued and avoiding me physically, which is to be expected, but she has at least acknowledged my existence and stayed in the same room with me without being antagonistic, so maybe there's hope.

I will try suggesting counseling, as a couple first, maybe individual for myself, and try to work towards individual for her.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

CuddleBug said:


> All you did was put her hand on your erection because you woke up hard and in the mood (like most guys) and you miss the physical touch, variety of sex and sex isn't enough in general.
> 
> Now she is upstairs crying just because you put her hand on your penis??? For real????


I have to disagree. The first time, nothing wrong. But when she says it is something she does not want him to do, then doing it again is wrong.



> She needs to get therapy and fast.


She does. Actually they both do, together and individually. Based on her actions, there is a lot of guidance he is going to need if he wants to help her. 



> And since she isn't taking care of your needs, which she is supposed to do out of love, I don't blame you for being weak and heaven forbid, put her hand on your penis. You are her hubby after all....:scratchhead:


Not an excuse. If he can't control himself, he needs his own therapy.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

So... apparently the light at the other end of the tunnel was a train.

She's calling this a crime - a rape - and saying that she can't feel safe with me any more. I suggested counseling, and she insisted that I'm the only one that needs to get therapy to be able to control myself. I'm not saying I don't - obviously there's something wrong with me if I can't stop myself from doing something that I know will hurt her... but when I suggested that her recent dreams might be a sign that she might need some of her own, she turned it back on me and said it was just her body knowing something - this incident - was coming.

I guess I'll be looking for a therapist for myself, and possibly an apartment.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Rotorhead77 said:


> So... apparently the light at the other end of the tunnel was a train.
> 
> She's calling this a crime - a rape - and saying that she can't feel safe with me any more. I suggested counseling, and she insisted that I'm the only one that needs to get therapy to be able to control myself. I'm not saying I don't - obviously there's something wrong with me if I can't stop myself from doing something that I know will hurt her... but when I suggested that her recent dreams might be a sign that she might need some of her own, she turned it back on me and said it was just her body knowing something - this incident - was coming.
> 
> I guess I'll be looking for a therapist for myself, and possibly an apartment.


Do you have kids?

There's a few people on here with threads related to being married to someone who was sexually abused as a child. CSA is the acronym. You may want to look into those threads, or even another forum that focuses on that. Your wife needs help if the two of you will survive as a couple. You can't force that; she has to decide that she needs that. But in the meantime, you can work on yourself.

And why should you be the one to move out if she's not happy with the way things are?

C


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## geneveve (Nov 6, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> I think I might have a problem... and it has led me to make one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made, and I'm not sure what to do about it.
> 
> My wife and I have been married for 14 years. She has a history of being sexually abused, which has led to a lot of complications for our sex life - the chief complaints from my end being there's not enough of it, and what there is is extremely limited in scope: she doesn't touch me, no oral either way, no anal (my fetish), just me performing foreplay on her using my hands, then missionary and/or doggy style.
> 
> ...


I agree with everyone else, the problem is with her not you. I would find it super sexy if my husband did that! 

Your wife needs to get into IC if possible to deal with her sexual abuse
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## frusdil (Sep 5, 2013)

I actually feel for both of you here. I know that it's very difficult to feel "shut out" by your partner. Sex isn't just sex to men...it's how they they feel loved, how they express their love to their wives...it's a lot more than just a physical act. I get that.

You also need to remember, as do the other posters that someone that has been the victim of CSA will have a completely different, over the top reaction to something that the rest of us won't.

I for example, wouldn't give two hoots if my husband did what you did...I actually told him off for not waking me up a few weeks ago when he woke up in the middle of the night horny and took care of himself instead of waking me up - I felt left out, lol.

But I'm not a victim of CSA. That's not something that you would ever forget...especially if as a child the perpetrator would come into your bedroom when you were asleep and that's where the abuse took place.

You both need counselling - the poster that said that your wife has no business being in a monogamous marriage without dealing with her past of abuse is right.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

I don't know how to get her to admit that she also needs counseling. Hell, I don't know how to get her to do anything she doesn't want to do herself.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

PBear said:


> Do you have kids?


 Yes, 2 girls, 12 and 10.



PBear said:


> And why should you be the one to move out if she's not happy with the way things are?


Because it's always been "her" house, and we've always said that if we were to ever split, she would get custody of the kids, so she'll need the house.

I'll look for those other threads/forums you mentioned.


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## pink_lady (Dec 1, 2012)

Lyris said:


> Unless she's willing to start doing the work to heal from the damage caused by her sexual abuse, then she has no business being in a monogamous marriage.
> 
> It's perfectly reasonable to expect the person you're married to to touch you.
> 
> You're not in a marriage, you're in a hostage situation.


:iagree:


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## pink_lady (Dec 1, 2012)

No, clearly you shouldn't have done what you did- I imagine it was out of buried frustration - you have every right to be frustrated with the situation you're in.

If your wife cannot admit she needs help she is in major denial. She has been so damaged by her own trauma that she cannot see that you have needs as well.

Maybe you would benefit from IC yourself so you can talk through your options with someone experienced in this issue? 

Are you willing to live without physical touch and sexual love the rest of your life?


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

I would try to explain to her that for the sake of your children, you guys need marriage counseling to try to work this out. Try to appeal to her mothering instinct if nothing else will work.

For most people, if their spouse did what you did, they would consider it foreplay, not rape. And I assume that you didn't force her to do anything else once she woke up? Yes, it was wrong but if she can't see that touching her husband's body is NORMAL for a wife, then she has big problems.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

justonelife said:


> if she can't see that touching her husband's body is NORMAL for a wife, then she has big problems.


What she reminded me of tonight, that I should have remembered and been more respectful of, is that the abuse she experienced as a child was focused on being forced to touch mens bodies.

So, yeah, of course this would be her biggest trigger, and I just set it off in style.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

pink_lady said:


> No, clearly you shouldn't have done what you did- I imagine it was out of buried frustration - you have every right to be frustrated with the situation you're in.


I suspect this is correct, but if I try to bring it up, I'm told it's not a valid defense. 



pink_lady said:


> Maybe you would benefit from IC yourself so you can talk through your options with someone experienced in this issue?


I'm looking for a provider as we speak.



pink_lady said:


> Are you willing to live without physical touch and sexual love the rest of your life?


Not in the slightest.


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## Kylie84 (May 4, 2012)

While both sides require understanding, I feel that you have been trying your best to be exactly that for her. Her extreme emotional distress at a seemingly harmless act I would assume would be enough for you to know never to do that again, but she shouldn't be blaming you. SHE needs to understand YOUR needs and the needs of a normal healthy marriage. Other posters have given you very helpful advice, I am so sorry you are going though this! Please go to therapy and support her


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Kylie84 said:


> SHE needs to understand YOUR needs and the needs of a normal healthy marriage.


And THAT is exactly what I've been trying to get her to understand for years, without success. 

Previous attempts to get her to MC have resulted in excuses along the lines of "no money", "no time", "no babysitter", "we don't need", etc. 

As I said before, I'm looking for my own therapist, we'll see where things go from there.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> What she reminded me of tonight, that I should have remembered and been more respectful of, is that the abuse she experienced as a child was focused on being forced to touch mens bodies.
> 
> So, yeah, of course this would be her biggest trigger, and I just set it off in style.


Well that was rather obvious from your description of her reaction, at least to me it was obvious. What leaves me shocked right now... The fact that you KNEW this and did it anyway.

You are far too selfish and self centered to be able to work this out with her right now.

You know she had this boundary.

You knew why she had this boundary.

Yet you did it anyway.

Were I in her shoes, I would NEVER trust you again. Ever!

You blew it dude. Take your lumps and find someone who can put up with your self centered insensitivity.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

Before I say this, I want it understood that I am in no way making light of abuse.

But would someone please explain to me how there can be a healthy sexual relationship in a marriage when she was sexually abused and refuses to seek any counseling. 

Now if it was me and my wife made any sort of references of rape aimed at me, especially if they have a sexual problem due to abuse, sorry, I'm gone. 

It is far too easy to point a finger and accuse someone of wrong doing and a Bit-- to defend yourself especially when the word rape comes up.

Rape is an ugly vile inexcusable thing to do and if the finger is pointed at a guy, it sticks with you forever.

My advice to you is this. Sleep in the other room or the couch. Shower by yourself. Get dressed/undressed in the bathroom with the door locked and avoid any and all contact. 

Most of all I would let her know that she either gets help for her problem or your gone. If she agrees to it then you be there with her and help her correct and deal with her past but I would be real careful because she's THROUGH NO FAULT OF HER OWN has a huge problem and without professional help, you could be in trouble.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Were I in her shoes, I would NEVER trust you again. Ever!
> 
> You blew it dude. Take your lumps and find someone who can put up with your self centered insensitivity.


That's quite a different attitude than your previous response(s)... but ok.

The specifics of her prior experiences were not something that she told to me in detail, or spent a lot of time explaining, so no, that knowledge was not in the front of my mind (clearly). Should it have been? Maybe. 

Maybe I did blow it. Maybe I am just a selfish prick. My action last night was definitely selfish, I acknowledge.

But then again, it's been 14 years of her withholding her affections from me, of me wishing and hoping for what I consider to be a normal sexual relationship, with nothing but disappointment and frustration as a result. 

That doesn't excuse my actions, of course... but if I did blow it, maybe I'm getting out the hard way from something I needed to get out of anyway.

I still love her, though... :/


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Ok, I'm also a csa, and I've said on other threads that it has deeply affected my ability to trust people because the adults in my life didn't protect me when I was a child and couldn't protect myself. It is extremely important to an abuse survivor that they can trust you, and you have shown that you are willing to exploit her when she's vulnerable (sleeping). I know you're coming from a place of frustration, and you are certainly entitled to sex on your marriage, but the way to deal with that is head on, not behind her back while she doesn't have her faculties. Now she knows that she's sleeping next to someone that will wait until she's asleep and do what he wants; THAT is the issue, not that you put her hand on your erection. It's just sneaky and underhanded; initiate sex while she's awake, and if she's refusing you deal with that head on while she can look you on the face. Once again: it's not about the hand on your erection, that's no big deal. It's about sleeping next to someone that's willing to do things when you're vulnerable. Just let her go for now; tell her you were a coward and should have looked her in the face and told her you want a sex life, and not waited until she couldn't respond. Tell her again that both of you need therapy and you are going, but she's a big girl and can make her own decisions. Then go about your life; if she decides to come back tell her that you don't think it's a good idea until she gets into therapy too so you can both address your marital issues, because you're not happy either.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

With a very few possible exceptions, none of us here is qualified to give you any more advice on this matter than this:

find quality professional help for your marriage.

This isn't just a little marital difference of opinion.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> That's quite a different attitude than your previous response(s)... but ok.
> 
> The specifics of her prior experiences were not something that she told to me in detail, or spent a lot of time explaining,


I was initially assuming you weren't aware of the nature of what was done to her or how she was forced to participate and as a result didn't have a thought about how your actions, combined with her recurring nightmares pulled a full out panic trigger from her.

But you did know. You did know that as a child a male grabbed her hand and forced her to wank him. 

Maybe you should have thought more about this. That as a child, a man used her hand against her, for his own pleasure. As a child, who was powerless, alone and afraid, she had to cope with the sensation of masturbating a males penis, the scent of his privates, the goo that came out. The guilt fear and shame afterward... 

You knew she had been forced to touch him, but maybe you never took the time to contemplate exactly what that memory looks like. In the eyes of a child an adult erect penis is frightening, disgusting, revolting. In the eyes of a child it symbolizes power they don't have and never will have. To an adult CSA survivor, what was seen as a child remains in that perspective, those memories remain in the eyes of that child and can't be contextualized within adult understanding. It is something CSA survivors simply come to terms with, I think. Or at least that how it worked for me.

Like every other poster here, I am so dreadfully sorry you are feeling so lost and unloved because your wife is a CSA a survivor. 

But you knew what happened to her and you did it anyway.

My husband never knew specifics, so if I was triggered, it was on me to cope with it. Maybe for us that turned out to be a good thing. 

But you knew she had been forced to masturbate a man when she was a child, and you triggered her anyway. 

I'm sorry I just can't get past that.

I feel badly for you, I really do. Maybe your wife will come around, if she loves you she likely will. 

Yes, you still deserve to be loved by your wife. But you forced her to love you. Don't you see, it's just like what happened to her?


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> ...
> 
> But you knew she had been forced to masturbate a man when she was a child, and you triggered her anyway.


No, that's not what I knew. I did NOT know specifics. There was no detail other than "forced to touch". None of the scent, or "goo" or any of that was ever mentioned as an issue. I'm not saying this excuses what I did, because obviously it's still the same thing, forcing her to touch.



Anon Pink said:


> Yes, you still deserve to be loved by your wife. But you forced her to love you. Don't you see, it's just like what happened to her?


Well, I'm certainly seeing more now than I did before.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I'm just so sorry for you, for your wife. I don't pray but if I did I would pray for you both.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

But Anon...while everything you said is true about what CSA survivors must go through, something else that is also true is that people who are NOT CSA survivors actually can't imagine what it is like...what it means...what kind of PTSD effects occur for the CSA survivor. They are "ignorant" of the knowledge that you are talking about. The do not necessarily "put it together" in their minds what the child-part of their spouse must have felt in those moments. This husband really can't possibly know what it was like for his wife...

...but he is looking at it more closely now, and I am glad you wrote what you did so he can be more aware.

I am just saying that this husband didn't do it with FULL awareness of the PTSD that is behind his wife's experience of it.

And while I of course feel so sad for her, I also feel so sad for this husband...because his marriage is a victim of her CSA abuser, too...and he wasn't even there or had anything to do with it, yet he is also victimized by it.

I hope you two can work something out Rotorhead...but I also hope you realize, if you stay married, you might have to accept sexlessness. If you can't, don't stay, please.


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## sinnister (Dec 5, 2010)

Meh...not sure I would be so hard on myself if the situations were reversed. She has major trauma that you cant resolve on your own. That means either you resolve to a life of little to no sex or vanilla sex, or she gets real help.

You cant do anything to fix this. She has to want to.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

This is a tragic situation but at some point the OP's spouse has to take some steps toward healing. If she does not there is no saving this marriage and I am not quite sure that the kids living with Mom at this point, should the OP move out, is particularly wise for anyone involved.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

> There was no detail other than "forced to touch"


There is no amount of ignorance that excuses knowingly forcing his wife to touch him (he moved her hand while she was sleeping; it's force by definition). 

OP, while you can't estimate what her PTSD would look like, you absolutely could choose to face her lack of intimacy and insist on IC once things began to go down hill, regardless of whether that was before or after she disclosed her abuse to you. You chose to not seek help for 14 years. That's a long time for both of you to suffer. The thing is...she suffered before she met you.

Part of your vows involve protecting her; that's part of honoring and cherishing her. Valuing her and her life experiences is part of marriage. You said it's been 14 years of this; you, too, had a responsibility to seek help for the marriage prior to this. Now you're here, telling us about how you violated and re-traumatized your wife.

I'd run like hell too. So would my H (we're both CSA survivors). Knowing what hurt someone and doing the same to your spouse is nowhere near caring. It's controlling.

I hope you'll face your part in this and willingly live apart while you seek IC. You can even tell her you hope she seeks treatment too. But you probably can't continue living with her and expect her to trust you.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

6301 said:


> Before I say this, I want it understood that I am in no way making light of abuse.
> 
> But would someone please explain to me how there can be a healthy sexual relationship in a marriage when she was sexually abused and refuses to seek any counseling.
> 
> ...


It's a two way street.
She won't get therapy.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

This is just a man who wants regular sexual experiences with his wife of 14 years. Roter- you are not wrong for wanting these very normal, basic things. In a regular sexual relationship of 14 years what's a little impressive erection early in the morning? Among typical people this is normal activity.

Sadly you don't fine yourself in the typical setting. I get irrationally angry - I mean cant sleep well angry when I hear these accounts of sexual abuse survivors. It makes me so GD mad that an adult would damage a child in this way - willfully, knowingly. Taking advantage of a child's innocence, manipulating that child in a way that will haunt every relationship she has for the rest of her life. Whoever did this to your wife deserves genital mutilation - I would honestly like to do it myself because it makes me so GD mad.

You are having to pay the bill that this mother****er charged up. Its not fair to you. Its not fair to her. However it is real - it happened to her - it is there. Some mother****er grabbed her hand and put it on his erection. When you have done that it brings it back to her - shes that defenseless child again. It makes her relive the encounters. The feelings return as if it was yesterday.

Again - you are not wrong or bad for your basic human desire to do the things that regular married couples do. It is her abusers doing. It is not your doing. However - it is there - this particular act will cause her to travel back in time.

I think it would be a gesture of good faith on your part to go to counseling. Not because your desires are wrong but because she needs to know you are taking this in seriousness. Perhaps she will join you in time and you both can move on together.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

At ages 10 and 12 she should be able to get a job. If she is a sahm you are screwed.

Ask her if you can get your needs met elsewhere.

She will never improve until she wants or accepts help that's the only reason I'm suggesting this.

Avoid her and go out a few nights a week make her wonder where you are at.
If it wouldn't have been this incident it would have been something else. Start going to the gym after work. Stop walking on egg shells and blaming yourself.
Sigh-you may have to carry a var with you for protection.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

You've been married to her for 14 years, correct?

Why didn't she get therapy from day 1? 

Why did she do nothing?

She's an adult.

Why can she then sexually starve you for 14 or so years and think that's okay?

And when you're constantly weak from the lack of sex and intimacy, you only a few times, took her hand, and put it on your erection?

Yes, that's a terrible thing for a hubby to do with his wife. What a monster you are.

Yes what happened to her was horrible and disgusting. I'm sure if posters here could meet this guy, he would be in a world of hurt.

Now either she agrees to get therapy and you are there with her for support, or move on and get a woman with a healthy high sex drive and none of this baggage you did nothing to deserve.

Would you of married her again if things were exactly the same?


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> You've been married to her for 14 years, correct?
> 
> Why didn't she get therapy from day 1?
> 
> ...


I don't get it he's a demon and she hasn't gotten any therapy.:scratchhead:
If you two d you may need your w to get a psych evaluation trauma like this can take on many terrible forms if left untreated like it is now.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

He is not a bad guy. He is a sexually starved hubby over the last 14 years of marriage. She is the monster for doing this to him.

She should of told him from day 1, I was abused as a child and I need therapy. Please come with me to support me and I'm sure he would of done this. But what did she do over the 14 years? Nothing......please

And the only thing he's done is put her hand on her penis a few times? That's it? Hardly worth crying over, screaming rape and he's a monster. So what would happen if he rubbed her feet on his penis, a foot job?

She should of got therapy from day 1 and none of this would of happened and he would of had a healthier sex life with her over the 14 years.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I'm just so sorry for you, for your wife. I don't pray but if I did I would pray for you both.


If I cared about prayers, I'd appreciate that.

Thanks to everyone else for all the comments - I get it, I'm a bad guy. No sarcasm - I feel like ****, and wish I could go back in time and kick myself in the nuts before I even started thinking that doing that would be ok.

I'm starting with the IC and sleeping on the couch, we'll see where it goes from there.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> He is not a bad guy. He is a sexually starved hubby over the last 14 years of marriage. She is the monster for doing this to him.
> 
> She should of told him from day 1, I was abused as a child and I need therapy. Please come with me to support me and I'm sure he would of done this. But what did she do over the 14 years? Nothing......please


It's partially his fault for putting up with this, but calling it rape please.
After he tried to get her help before he should have moved on but he wanted to make it work-ugh.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Now she did tell him, don't use my hand for sex, on his penis and he did do this again. Since she was abused, that triggered her badly. I can sympathize. But she is an adult and should of been to the therapist from the time she was getting serious with him and then married.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

The only bad person in this scenario is the mother****er who abused her. She is not bad. Her husband is not bad. One bad person here. The abuser - the adult who knowingly used a little girl, a child, to get himself off. Lets not displace any anger.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I was also going to add - if your children are the same age your wife was at the time of abuse it may be harder for her overall. Forcing her to.see her abuse in a different way.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

MissScarlett said:


> The only bad person in this scenario is the mother****er who abused her. She is not bad. Her husband is not bad. One bad person here. The abuser - the adult who knowingly used a little girl, a child, to get himself off. Lets not displace any anger.


We get that however if she was at least making an effort to therapy that was offered.

He does need some therapy to realize this will not change and HE cannot fix this and needs to make a very tough decision. SAD really sad for all involved.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Believe me - I hope she will seek therapy and again, I do not blame either of these people. Not him for being a regular, sexual person and not her for something that wasn't her doing.

I have a male friend who was raped ( by a man) as a child. We discuss this topic regularly - once you are damaged are you always damaged? Sometimes it is so great or we have been successful in building enough barriers that we think we can go along as other people do. 

Often those that have been traumatized enough have no realization how deep they are or how close to the edge they travel. 

Just again for good measure. I blame one person and its not rotor or his wife.


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## 1438 Third (Nov 8, 2013)

I have to tell you - I am a woman and I know you love your wife. Sexually I know I like to sometimes push my husbands comfort zone and It excites me more. I know your wife has been abused and I am sorry for her- the problem is that you aren't facing your needs together openly with her. She is unable to give you what you would like and then you are trying to fulfill yourself in ways that don't sit right with you because you are a good husband. Your best bet is to watch some porn for a few nights- get a grip and approach her nicely which it sounds like you do already. You need to be delicate and tell her what your hopes are for you two sexually - I know the porn sounds weird or bad but it is a release that takes the pressure off of the woman you love who has obviously been badly hurt


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> But Anon...while everything you said is true about what CSA survivors must go through, something else that is also true is that people who are NOT CSA survivors actually can't imagine what it is like...what it means...what kind of PTSD effects occur for the CSA survivor. They are "ignorant" of the knowledge that you are talking about. The do not necessarily "put it together" in their minds what the child-part of their spouse must have felt in those moments. This husband really can't possibly know what it was like for his wife...


This reminds me. A lot of emphasis is put on how the CSA survivor needs to get therapy, get fixed up, etc. so they don't "inflict" their trauma on their partner/spouse. What I don't see is people stressing that the PARTNERS of CSA survivors educate themselves so that they KNOW about this stuff and don't cause more damage. Ignorance is no excuse if the partner disclosed anything at all to indicate that they were a CSA survivor. Responsibility goes both ways, after all.


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## InlandTXMM (Feb 15, 2013)

OP I am sorry for your situation. You sound like a loving but sex starved husband and your wife is a deeply damaged person.

Lay off the guy for wanting regular, normal, expected sexual contact in his marriage. He is not the damaged one; his wife is. I've done my share of "copping a feel" on my wife while we slept, and of (usually jokingly) moving her hand onto my crotch on occasion. A healthy, stable, loving wife doesn't get up in the morning and claim it was rape.

The problem is the very real trauma of his wife's past. If she cannot or will not seek counseling to overcome this issue, then I don't see how the marriage has any chance of surviving. OP, you didn't marry a past victim of sexual abuse - you married a person still living in that victimization as if it just happened, because she never dealt with it.

Since she won't get the help she needs, unless she agrees to an open marriage for him to get the physical release he needs, I don't know how this marriage moves forward. Not saying that's anywhere close to the best outcome - the best solution is for them to work through her abuse issues together.

I really feel badly for your situation. I do pray, and will keep your family in my thoughts.


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## soulpotato (Jan 22, 2013)

OP, it was great that you came here for help and advice. I really hope the MC/IC happens.


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## btdt (Nov 19, 2012)

So how do you continue in a relationship with a women who thinks you've raped her?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Rotorhead77 said:


> If I cared about prayers, I'd appreciate that.
> 
> Thanks to everyone else for all the comments - I get it, I'm a bad guy. No sarcasm - I feel like ****, and wish I could go back in time and kick myself in the nuts before I even started thinking that doing that would be ok.


I disagree. You did a bad thing, but then again most of us have. How you deal with it is what determines the type of man that you are. Accepting responsibility and working to prevent it in the future is the opposite of being a bad guy.



> I'm starting with the IC and sleeping on the couch, we'll see where it goes from there.


Good first steps. Part of your counseling needs to be about being in a relationship with a CSA. You need to figure out how you will handle that.

At some point, you will need to require her to take steps to work through it as well. If she refuses, you need to decide what you want.

A tough set of circumstances. I wish you luck.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> But Anon...while everything you said is true about what CSA survivors must go through, something else that is also true is that people who are NOT CSA survivors actually can't imagine what it is like...what it means...what kind of PTSD effects occur for the CSA survivor. They are "ignorant" of the knowledge that you are talking about. The do not necessarily "put it together" in their minds what the child-part of their spouse must have felt in those moments. This husband really can't possibly know what it was like for his wife...


Yes... No.... Maybe.... I don't know...

Applying my own lessons and my own marriage mistakes it seems so wholly unfair to the spouse who is normal and healthy. That they have to weigh and balance and project how each move and each word might trigger a reactionary response is just too much to ask. While at the same time the spouse being neglected and relegated to sexual scraps has got to start somewhere, right?

To have a healthy sexuality and to express it would be the goal of healing. But if the sexuality of both spouses has been demented in order not to trigger, in order to feel safe, in order to express love, this means they both have to heal, right?



> ...but he is looking at it more closely now, and I am glad you wrote what you did so he can be more aware.
> 
> I am just saying that this husband didn't do it with FULL awareness of the PTSD that is behind his wife's experience of it.
> 
> And while I of course feel so sad for her, I also feel so sad for this husband...because his marriage is a victim of her CSA abuser, too...and he wasn't even there or had anything to do with it, yet he is also victimized by it.


It reminds me of what Mavash wrote in one of my threads,

Intimacy=* In To Me SEE. *​
It means, *see me, understand me and love me anyway*. This is something the CSA survivor is terrified about. How can you possibly see and understand the swirling black goo that is my mind and love me anyway. So you must stay at arms length in order for me to be safe.

Meanwhile the spouse, having been kept at arms length without even realizing it tries for sexual intimacy, cause that's generally how men feel intimacy and he bumbles into her mind traps.



> I hope you two can work something out Rotorhead...but I also hope you realize, if you stay married, you might have to accept sexlessness. If you can't, don't stay, please.


While mrs. Rotorhead is in triggered victim mode it will be sexless.

But it doesn't have to stay that way. This could be the catalyst for healing if mr rotorhead has the courage to confront the unhealthy dynamic between them.

I suggest he get himself an expert guide. A PhD therapist who specializes in trauma recovery can help him model sexual health and teach him to help his wife. While it's different for everyone, and not everyone wishes to fully heal, if they both remain in victim mode no one will get healthy.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

TikiKeen said:


> There is no amount of ignorance that excuses knowingly forcing his wife to touch him (he moved her hand while she was sleeping; it's force by definition).


Linguistic or legal?


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> If I cared about prayers, I'd appreciate that.
> 
> Thanks to everyone else for all the comments - I get it, I'm a bad guy. No sarcasm - I feel like ****, and wish I could go back in time and kick myself in the nuts before I even started thinking that doing that would be ok.
> 
> I'm starting with the IC and sleeping on the couch, we'll see where it goes from there.


 Rotorhead.

Your not a bad guy. Yes you made a mistake but she isn't helping either by not getting help. She knows she has a problem but rather than doing the right thing and facing the problem and making corrections, it easier to make you feel guilty about it. I honestly don't know how you can get passed this without some kind of counseling. She has to want to and you do too but it has to be the both of you that want it.

I told you before. Shower by yourself. Get dressed/undressed in private and sleep by yourself. Sooner or later she's going to say something to you about it and when she does, if it was me, I would be very honest and let her know that the accusations made at you have cut real deep and you can't trust her knowing that she feels like that and until she realizes that sitting and doing nothing about it will only make the marriage harder to be in. All in all, it's up to her to get help and if she finally agrees, then by all means let her know that you will be there for her.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

6301 said:


> Rotorhead.
> 
> Your not a bad guy. Yes you made a mistake but she isn't helping either by not getting help. She knows she has a problem but rather than doing the right thing and facing the problem and making corrections, it easier to make you feel guilty about it. I honestly don't know how you can get passed this without some kind of counseling. She has to want to and you do too but it has to be the both of you that want it.
> 
> I told you before. Shower by yourself. Get dressed/undressed in private and sleep by yourself. Sooner or later she's going to say something to you about it and when she does, if it was me, I would be very honest and let her know that the accusations made at you have cut real deep and you can't trust her knowing that she feels like that and until she realizes that sitting and doing nothing about it will only make the marriage harder to be in. All in all, it's up to her to get help and if she finally agrees, then by all means let her know that you will be there for her.


Do this^^^
Get finances in order and talk to an attorney to learn of your possible future responsibilities should you divorce.

Even if you don't want to, you have to show her you are willing and able to move on jmo.
I don't see this situation changing.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Yes... No.... Maybe.... I don't know...
> 
> Applying my own lessons and my own marriage mistakes it seems so wholly unfair to the spouse who is normal and healthy. That they have to weigh and balance and project how each move and each word might trigger a reactionary response is just too much to ask. While at the same time the spouse being neglected and relegated to sexual scraps has got to start somewhere, right?


This particular problem is one that spouses of those who were never CSA victims have to deal with as well. It's not that different from the reaction I would get if I were to spring something new on my wife, for instance, although to be fair she wouldn't accuse me of rape.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Good point Cletus. If you got freaky [read brave as hell or suicidal] and showed her a butt plug, say, then proceeded to lube it up for insertion...she might have quite the reaction.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Good point Cletus. If you got freaky [read brave as hell or suicidal] and showed her a butt plug, say, then proceeded to lube it up for insertion...she might have quite the reaction.


Not sure I want to go through life with one arm.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

So, things are still rough at home, as is to be expected, I guess. I made another apology this morning, including telling her about the help I've been getting here in realizing the enormity of my mistake, and telling her that I'd give her her space until - if ever - she was ready to have me back. I got no response except for tears, until I had to leave for work. 

During the day she appears to have been mostly functional - I came home to find a lot of the chores and activities she's been looking forward to showing signs of progress. A cooking tool she's been looking forward to getting finally arrived, so she's been busy making fresh tomato soup.

A friend of hers was over when I got home, and she was somewhat energetically showing off her Harry Potter collection, and was talking about a future visit to the Universal Studios park that she's been planning for a while, and she was talking about is as though I were still included, so this gives me hope that, in the long term, she at least wants us to go back to normal.

Yet as the night goes on, she's becoming more and more withdrawn.

I've contacted my health insurance and selected a behavioral health practice that has two very advanced clinical psychologists, including one who apparently is a lecturer for doctoral studies at nearby universities, and that specialize in marital counseling as well as sexuality and domestic violence issues.

I'm still working up my nerve to ask her to go get her own counseling, as well as join me in couples counseling.

Keeping my fingers crossed that things might turn out ok, sooner or later.


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

Perhaps you could start your own counseling and then see if your counselor would be willing to talk to her? Maybe after a couple of weeks, say that your counselor would like to speak to her about the incident to get the full story and take it from there.


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## richie33 (Jul 20, 2012)

If the situation doesn't improve you know your future will be as roommates not as a married couple? You are doing the right thing as to seeking therapy but as you get healthy and she doesn't.....she may end up losing you. That may be your future.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

richie33 said:


> If the situation doesn't improve you know your future will be as roommates not as a married couple? You are doing the right thing as to seeking therapy but as you get healthy and she doesn't.....she may end up losing you. That may be your future.


Honestly, I think the only way there's a possibility of a future together is if she does get her own help, as well as getting couple's counseling. There's too many other issues for me to ignore. 

I'm going to go through the therapy for myself if for no other reason than so that, if it does fall apart, I'm not going out as the bad guy.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

justonelife said:


> Perhaps you could start your own counseling and then see if your counselor would be willing to talk to her? Maybe after a couple of weeks, say that your counselor would like to speak to her about the incident to get the full story and take it from there.


Yeah, that was kind of what I had in mind.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Good luck rotorhead77! 

There are other husbands here dealing with the same thing you and your wife are. There are also a few of us survivors too. 

Posting here can help you process things.


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## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

It's sad indeed that Rotor gets painted as the rapist by his wife. I doubt he grew up thinking that what he is going through now/has been going through for the past 14 years could actually happen. In his mind, I'm sure, he thought that the last thing on earth him and his wife would be fighting over would be sex. He never imagined that he would become so sexually starved that in a moment of weakness after going through (I'm guessing) weeks/months of zero affection from his wife, that he would end up taking her hand while she sleeps and put it on his penis.

So he made this mistake twice in their 14 year marriage. So what!?!?!?!?!? Just like Mrs. Rotor needs/needed to learn how to cope with what happened to her, Mr. Rotor is also trying to figure out what has happened to him. What has happened to her. His entire idea of what he thought marriage should be, doesn't exist in his world. What his world does consist of, through no fault from Mr. or Mrs. Rotor, is him walking around on eggshells around her. Constantly watching what he says and does in the hopes that he doesn't trigger anything in her. 
Right now, he too is a victim of CSA. He is "The Victim after the fact". He is totally blameless for everything she has gone through. I know that it saddens him to death that his precious, beautiful wife had to endure what that fcuker did to her. If he could, there's no doubt in my mind that he would kill the person who hurt her so badly.
It's a sad reality that the person who hurt his wife didn't just hurt her, but also hurt every relationship she would ever enter into. He also hurt Mr. Rotor who didn't even know Mrs. Rotor at the time. Mr. Rotor stepped into the picture, I'm sure he and her had some wild crazy sex for a while. She then told him about what had happened to her, and him being the gentleman that he is, held her with all his might. Cried with her. Listened to her if/when she wanted to talk. He told himself that he would never ever hurt her like that. Promised her that he would always protect her. She is, after all, his beautiful, precious wife. He promised himself that he would be her Knight in Shining Armour. In the back of his mind, he told himself that HE is gna fix her. HE is gna make everything better. They then got married.
At first things were ok. Not great as they were before they were married. But ok. He figured that it's fine. Things will get better. He tried a little harder to do the romantic gestures. Told her she was gorgeous. Meant it. Love(s) her to death. He feels sad when he looks at her during the day while she's going about the chores she does. He is sad coz he knows what she's been through and he tries to imagine what it might be she is feeling/going through right now coz he knows she isn't telling him the whole story. He sees the pain in her eyes. He feels the hurt thereof when he tries to initiate intimacy with her. Eventually, after 100's of rejections, he stops initiating for a while. Then out of the blue, an erection out of nowhere wakes him. He is angry. Not angry coz he has an erection. But angry coz he cant roll over to his beautiful wife and make love to her. He is angry that this, waking up with an erection, will be met with a total "Hell No" by his wife next to him. Unfortunately, he is now thinking with "his other head". He spoons her from behind. Holds her a little closer. No response from her. He craves some affection form this beautiful Queen next to him. It hurts. He is mad at himself. Mad at her. Mad at the world. Mad at other married couples who seem happy and fulfilled. He craves his basic human right (awarded to married men) of affection and touch. His wife hasn't touched him in such a long time. Without thinking it through, her reaches out for her wrist and moves her hand onto his erection. It feels good to feel her again. It also feels downright wrong coz he knows she is asleep. He wants to stop. Tells himself "2 more seconds". She awakes.
Normally, this should be met by laughter/giggles/fun. It should be a fun moment. Sadly its not. He is immediately reminded of what she had to endure many years ago. He is mad at himself. Mad at her. Mad at their situation. He immediately feels shame for what he had just done. No amount of her being mad at him equates to how mad he is at himself. He feels like he actually did something SO VERY WRONG that he immediately apologizes. Funny, how when this exact same thing plays down in the house next door to Mr. Rotor's, it's met with acceptance and laughter. Fun. It's an unexpected love making session. Yet, in his house, it's likened to rape. He is basically called a rapist. 
He isn't allowed to remotely touch his wife. Whether it be a normal physical touch or even a more sensual, sexual touch. He feels trapped/cheated. She feels violated. How dare he, the one who promised to love me forever, not love me. How could he lie to me all those years ago when he said he would protect me always. This is not the man I married. Who is this stranger. And why is he in my bed. Why is he doing this to me. Doing this to us. Who are you???

*********************************

PS: I never meant to type as much as I did. Once I started typing, my fingers just wouldn't stop. I can only imagine that these are some of the feelings which went through Mr and Mrs Rotor's minds during this whole ordeal.

Mr. Rotor is being punished for something he had absolutely no control over. He isnt being punished for putting her hand on his penis. He is being punished coz some little a$$w!pe fcuker violated and destroyed his precious wife's outlook on life. Destroyed a marriage which wouldn't happen for many years to come.

I dont have any advice on how what you should do. Or what your wife should do. Or how you should go about getting her to do what many here say she should be doing. But I sincerely hope you say the right words to her one day soon so that those words can shake her and make her realise that she is punishing the wrong man. I hope you find the words that makes her see that you do love her dearly. Please tell her this: 

"Mrs. Rotor, I love you dearly. I love you so very much. Divorce is NOT an option for you and I. I am so sorry for what I have done to you. It never was my intention to hurt you. I love you too much to want to ever intentionally hurt you. I dont think the actual issue is me making you touch me. That's simply a symptom of the problem. I would like us to get to a place where is it ok for us to touch one another. I apologise for being so selfish on the 2 occasions I made you touch me. I truly am sorry. I'd like for us to get past this and also, I want us to get to the bottom of whats going on in your head. You're still very hurt and traumatized by what happened to you many years go. I'm here for you. Even though, I know, it hasnt seemed like it lately, but I AM HERE FOR YOU. I want to help you get heal. I think that the only way for you and I to really get better is for both of us to get some form o counseling. I've already made an appointment for myself. I'm hoping to learn how to better understand what you were put through many years ago when you were hurt. I want to know why I, unintentionally, hurt you like that again last week. I never want to make that mistake ever again. What I do want, is for us to find each other again and rediscover our love for one another. Lets rediscover our family again. I want us to fall in love again.
I'd like for you to seek counseling too. I'd join you if you would let me. If you'd rather go alone. That's fine. I'll take you. Wait in the foyer till you're done. Whatever it takes. I'll support you all the way. I'm on your side. Can we please stop fighting each other. Someone took something so precious away from you. From me. From us. From our family. I'd like to help you find it. Please reconsider counseling. Even if it's just so that you can get these burdens off you chest. Out in the open for a bit. Face them head on. I'll be with you, alongside you 100% of the way. 
Lets not let this fcuker get away with what he did you you. To us. Lets show him that our love is stronger than him and his abusive ways. Lets show him that all that he did was make us a stronger married couple.
I have never stopped loving you. Never will. You are my world.
Lets prove them all wrong. Lets do this.
I love you so much Mrs. Rotor."

***************************
OK... thats around all I have to say on this story for now. Good luck Mr. Rotor. You did nothing wrong when you touched her.
Your wife did nothing wrong when she pushed you away for doing that.
The one and only person who DID IN FACT DO something wrong is her abuser.

PPS: When you speak with her, make sure your tone is soft. None judgmental. Keep on reassuring her that you do in fact love her very much and that all you want to do it protect her.

Best of luck to you and the Mrs.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Were I in her shoes, I would NEVER trust you again. Ever!
> 
> You blew it dude. Take your lumps and find someone who can put up with your self centered insensitivity.


I agree 100%, on the other hand, OP wife's behavior and lack of interest to seek IC over a long period of time is a serious red light in itself. If it took something like the episode listed to trigger, so be it. Better bail out at 40 than at 50.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

I think I need to be reading this MMSL thing and doing the MAP thing, too. Been driving a desk and being a willing Beta for too damn long.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Rotorhead77 said:


> I think I need to be reading this MMSL thing and doing the MAP thing, too. Been driving a desk and being a willing Beta for too damn long.


Oh, there's an extraordinarily long list of acronyms you can try. At the end of the day, you might have changed yourself, but more likely than not she'll be more or less the same person.

Don't make the mistake of thinking the odds are in your favor.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Don't make the mistake of thinking the odds are in your favor.


Oh, I'm well aware that they're not. But at least I'll be in better shape for whatever comes next.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Agreed.

You are doing the changing and blaming yourself for everything and making it sound like you raped her.

She is the one who hasn't changed, got desperately needed therapy from day 1, and has a boring to lower sex drive.

As bad as her abuse was, that is no excuse to put you through a poor marriage for the last 14 years and freak on you because you used her hand to touch yourself and nothing more.

And since she knew she was that traumatized, why did she then get married? 

Did she think getting married would magically heal her?

You know I wish you the best brother.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I get the anger and resentment. But no one here has called him a rapist. Her triggers to large and too sensitive, her boundaries are too narrow. She felt violated and considering her boundaries, she was.

Boundaries and triggers are not set in stone. They CAN be changed and I'm living proof! I have a kick ass sex life and it get better and wilder every year.

No one gets married thinking their sex life is gonna suck and expecting their partner to be okay with that. Becoming a mother triggers the abandonment and fear of vulnerability and as Miss Scarlett pointed out their kids are likely the same age and mrs rotorhead when she was abused, another trigger, probably triggered the nightmares too.

There's lots of work to be done but it can be done!

I really don't see the need to be so pessimistic. Healing is possible!


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I get the anger and resentment. But no one here has called him a rapist. Her triggers to large and too sensitive, her boundaries are too narrow. She felt violated and considering her boundaries, she was.
> 
> Boundaries and triggers are not set in stone. They CAN be changed and I'm living proof! I have a kick ass sex life and it get better and wilder every year.
> 
> ...


Not unless she is ready to take her share of the blame for this IMO. Her H should not be so desperate that he is driven to this, and her boundaries need to be more normal. Any good marriage would get a laugh at worst and full on sex at best if one partner woke up to the other making an advance on them.
In this marriage it is a criminal offense. That is ridiculous. She needs to stay in counseling until it is not, or he needs to look elsewhere, just D first.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

nogutsnoglory said:


> Not unless she is ready to take her share of the blame for this IMO. Her H should not be so desperate that he is driven to this, and her boundaries need to be more normal. Any good marriage would get a laugh at worst and full on sex at best if one partner woke up to the other making an advance on them.
> In this marriage it is a criminal offense. That is ridiculous. She needs to stay in counseling until it is not, or he needs to look elsewhere, just D first.


Sadly if she doesn't want/seek help he has to move on.

I hope he get's ic because he sounds like beaten man.

Yes her abuse was horrific she can at least put an effort on her end.


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## wannabe (Sep 29, 2013)

Definitely! A little effort is warranted from her end. She has to give as much effort, maybe even more, as she is getting. Nothing worse than being a one man show in trying to fix a marriage. 

All the best!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

After telling me last night that she wasn't ready to share a bed with me (I tried to get into my own bed so the kids wouldn't see me sleeping on the couch - too soon, I know, my fault), she woke me up this morning to have another talk.

She says that what I did is worse than all of her other abuses, because it came from the one person she trusted to be her protector.

She blames my insecurity for my reaction to her lack of sex drive, and my reactions to her prior non-sexual shows of affection for her current lack of sexual interest. Basically, she made it clear that in her mind, I'm the one with all the problems, that I knew her issues and accepted them before we got married so I should have to just deal with them as they are now.

I suggested that she get therapy for herself, and she said that she got therapy when she was younger, and she doesn't need more, that I just need to deal with it. She said she was willing to consider couples counseling, but didn't think it would do any good until I fixed myself.

She said the damage I did is fixable, it'll just take time.



tom67 said:


> I hope he get's ic because he sounds like beaten man.


Therapy for me is happening one way or the other. As for being a beaten man... not sure how you meant that, but sometimes it does feel that way. Fortunately there's been no actual physical violence (in either direction).



wannabe said:


> Nothing worse than being a one man show in trying to fix a marriage.


At the moment, at least, it definitely feels like I'm a one-man show in this effort.

Thanks to everyone for all the words of support.


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## RClawson (Sep 19, 2011)

"She said the damage I did is fixable, it'll just take time."

Good luck with that. You, You and YOU need to fix it. She is just fine. Enjoy your life.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

Hang on, you're getting a huge thing here: MC. She said yes. That's a big deal!

My H's past abuse was never dealt with, and he flipped out in MC. But...the result was that he was ordered to IC, where he began to deal with his issues. He "broke", so to speak, and because it hurt him badly enough, he did get the help. he had the option of doing nothing and losing his family (like your W), but he took the risk of IC.

I hope your W has similar results, without the drama we had here.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> She blames my insecurity for my reaction to her lack of sex drive, and my reactions to her prior non-sexual shows of affection for her current lack of sexual interest. Basically, she made it clear that in her mind, I'm the one with all the problems, that I knew her issues and accepted them before we got married so I should have to just deal with them as they are now.


And that's all you need to know. Basically she will milk this as long as she can - justifiably to a small extent - to continue the relationship in its current form. 

I once dated a CSA girl in high school - very little physical contact but lots of emotions. Lots of therapy. We've kept in touch on and off and as far as I know she never married or got into anything involved. If this was because of her own personal attitude, good for her for being honest to herself first.

In OP's case it's not quite the same and I'm not buying the "you knew all that and still" unless OP had access to all the case history, privileged information, etc. It's also a bit too late to bring it to the table now.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

wannabe said:


> I
> 
> ***************************
> OK... thats around all I have to say on this story for now. Good luck Mr. Rotor. You did nothing wrong when you touched her.
> ...


 Right there. Your being punished for what the abuser did to her. That's why she needs the therapy so she can see that all Rotor wants is a normal sex life with his wife. 

One thing is bothering me now. I got a feeling that his wife is going to use this incident and milk it for all it's worth and in doing so rip this marriage apart because in her mind her husband just took the place of the bum who started all of this and no matter how many times he say's he's sorry, her vengeance is going to be even stronger and aimed at the wrong person.

Rotor. You mad a mistake by getting into bed with her and I strongly urge you to make the couch your bed. Do not give her reason to think your pushing her. That's why I told you IMO to shower and dress in private. Make boundaries around yourself and if you kiss her goodbye in the morning, a kiss on the cheek without leaning in to her. Make sure there is space between you and back off on the affection.

Remember. She thinks it's you with the problem and she's perfectly fine. That in it's self should tell you she in denial and when someone is like that, they will use whatever they can to prove the point. 

Until she realizes that she hasn't gotten over this incident and gets the help, you will be the scape goat. Just back off and let her make the move towards you but that's not going to solve the problem. The problem is in her head and she has to be the one to get the help. Please be careful with her. Honestly I wouldn't be able to trust her with what's going through her mind.


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## ASummersDay (Mar 4, 2013)

I think it is sometimes very difficult for people who have not experienced childhood sexual abuse to understand the extent of the damage it can do. Clearly, your wife has been deeply, deeply affected by what happened. I'm not going to speak on who was right or wrong in the situation you described, Rotor. What is important is what happens now.

Unfortunately, there is nothing you can do that will "make" your wife confront and work through her trauma. It is not uncommon for survivors of CSA to bury their pain deep down just to get by, and have a very difficult time coping when that pain is brought to the surface. As you've seen, this method of handling the trauma is not effective. It's not a viable solution, and it certainly does not contribute to a healthy marriage.

My advice to you, Rotor, is to attend MC with your wife. Don't bring up her need for IC anymore. If she is not ready or willing to work through her trauma, you will only push her further away by pressuring her. Make the therapy about the marriage. Once she starts going, she may recognize on her own (with the help of a counselor) that she needs to work on overcoming the events of her past. This is a realization she will need to come to on her own.

Living with a spouse who has experienced CSA can potentially pose many long-term challenges. If your wife has PTSD, and it sounds like she may, she is likely to have triggers for a long time. These triggers may or may not seem rational to you, but are very traumatic to her. You need to decide if you are willing to live with that in the event that she is not able to overcome them.

You are not obligated to stay married to your wife if you find you can't handle it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> And that's all you need to know. Basically she will milk this as long as she can.


That's an uncalled for and an unfair characterization that implies some nefarious intent on her part, like the welfare cheat.

People listen and learn when they're ready to, when not listening and not learning is more painful than the opposit. You know that John!

Wife, meet rock bottom. Rock bottom, meet wife.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

It says a lot about how difficult it is to change - that she would choose to remain the woman who cant wake up with her hand on her husbands penis.

Its difficult to change - and if she wont work towards change you cant force her to.

It like we have discussed here before - what happened to her was completely inexcusable. Ive already mentioned what I would like seen done to her abuser. And on the over hand - how much of her life and her human experience is she willing to turn over to this abuser.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Daily update... spent most of yesterday apart, due to events planned weeks ago. Spent the evening watching movies together (no touching).

Had a long talk right before bed, she declared "you did a bad thing, but you're not a bad person." Talked about how her medical issues (which interfere with our relationship more than her prior abuses do) and about whether or not I'll be able to handle it in the future. She said she'd rather see me happy, even if it's not with her, and that she'd rather me not stay with her if it's just to keep her life together (I'm the sole provider for the household, she's a SAHM). I told her I wasn't sure, that I was obviously having problems handling it right now, but I'd have to wait and see what therapy is able to do to help.

She ended the night saying that she wanted me back in bed with her (no touching still - and she brought it up, I didn't ask) but the idea still caused her some anxiety, so I should stay on the couch for a while longer, which I did.

Woke up this morning to a nice breakfast, including coffee already made (she never does this!). 

I'm still not sure if I'll be able to handle a mostly sexless marriage. I'm hoping the IC will help me find a way to deal with it, because I really do still love this woman, even with all the crazy history and issues going on today.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I'm very much hoping she will find the motivation and strength to change. It seems right now she might be saying - this happened to me, this is the result and I'm going to end up alone over it - that's just the way it is.

It does not have to be that way. We all have the power to change but it is a difficult thing to do of course. 

Not to make this about me but ive spent some time in thought over this situation and also making myself take a look at the things I'm willing to accept because its just easier than changing. I guess the issues seem clearer when you look into someone else's life.

Best of luck to you u it sounds like you are doing all you can to show her your remorse.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Rotorhead77 said:


> Daily update... spent most of yesterday apart, due to events planned weeks ago. Spent the evening watching movies together (no touching).
> 
> Had a long talk right before bed, she declared "you did a bad thing, but you're not a bad person." Talked about how her medical issues (which interfere with our relationship more than her prior abuses do) and about whether or not I'll be able to handle it in the future. She said she'd rather see me happy, even if it's not with her, and that she'd rather me not stay with her if it's just to keep her life together (I'm the sole provider for the household, she's a SAHM). I told her I wasn't sure, that I was obviously having problems handling it right now, but I'd have to wait and see what therapy is able to do to help.
> 
> ...



If your wifee was serious about keeping this marriage healthy and strong, through the good times and bad, she would of already gone to therapy and these issues would of been dealt with many years ago.

You are living in a pretty much sexless marriage and that will more than likely never change.

She thinks by allowing you to sleep in the same bed with her and she makes you breakfast, still no sex though, everything is great.

She isn't willing to change and get the help she desperately needs.

Then she says, she wants you to be happy, even without her???

Is she seeing someone else?

I would give her an ultimatum. Either we go to marriage counseling and therapy together or I want a divorce. I don't deserve this sexless marriage and you aren't doing anything to take care of my needs.

As bad as her abuse from the past was, this is the here and now, she is an adult and not a child, and she as a wife should of got help way back and your sex lives together should of been fine at this point. Her hand on your penis, she should of giggled and gave you a hand job or oral sex.

She's got issues and isn't willing to do much about them. 

No more talking, reading books and bending over backwards for her.

This is not your fault.

She has to grow up and get the help now or you divorce her and move on. Funny how many are painting you as the horrible hubby.......pathetic!!!

More power to you.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Let's try to not talk about "she should have giggled" when he put her hand on his penis. She is a CSA, and she is going to react differently. It is what it is.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

CuddleBug said:


> Is she seeing someone else?


I'm 99.9% sure she's not. I do keep an eye on things, just in case.



CuddleBug said:


> She's got issues and isn't willing to do much about them.


The medical issues are a complication here that I haven't given much weight to so far, but they need to be considered going forwards. She has been diagnosed with B-12 anemia, discovered after it had already done possibly irreparable nerve damage, which gives her phantom pains (like being tased) and makes it painful for her to be touched. She's receiving treatment for this condition, but there is no guarantee of a permanent recovery, whether partial or complete. Some days are better than others, and we're able to be physically intimate, but even then those actions result in a feedback resulting in a bad day, which makes the next good day harder to find.

Where the CSA issues come into play is that I've been trying to ask her to consider alternatives to physical touch that would allow us to remain intimate, and she has refused to consider anything at all, preferring to remain shielded behind that wall.

I'm going to continue as planned, with IC for me first, then MC ASAP, and hopefully IC for her later. 

It kind of feels wrong for me to buck my feelings of responsibility towards my wife, my kids, and my household, just because I'm not getting the sex I need. But then again, if I can't handle not getting sex, and it leads to me hurting her again... that will be worse.


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Rotorhead77 said:


> I'm 99.9% sure she's not. I do keep an eye on things, just in case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again, this is not your fault.

You did nothing to abuse or traumatize her.

Your are a new chapter in her life, a blank book, not what happened to her in the distant past.

As a woman, an adult, she knows men are sexual with usually high sex drives and the more adventurous the sex is, the better. Common sense.

Your wife, isn't willing to get help and meet your sexual needs.......14 or so years later.......That's 14 or so years you will never get back and have lost.

If she was serious, she would of taken the initiative and got the help needed, with or without you by now, instead of doing nothing and starving you of your needs.

My 2 cents. Therapy and marriage counseling together, or alone if she's more comfortable with that, or move on because she will not change for you or your marriage.

Wish you the best.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

CuddleBug said:


> Again, this is not your fault.
> 
> You did nothing to abuse or traumatize her.
> 
> ...


Please stop blaming yourself.
If she doesn't get the help she needs there is nothing you can do.
You have a painful decision to make and I don't envy you.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I find it amazing the men pointing the finger and urging a blameless stance are the same men who consistently complain about their own dreary sex lives. Perhaps some of you should follow your own advice? ....Cuddlebug? .....John?....Tom?.... Beuhler? ....Beuhler? .....Beuhler?



Rotorhead77 said:


> She ended the night saying that she wanted me back in bed with her (no touching still - and she brought it up, I didn't ask) but the idea still caused her some anxiety, so I should stay on the couch for a while longer, which I did.
> 
> Woke up this morning to a nice breakfast, including coffee already made (she never does this!).
> 
> I'm still not sure if I'll be able to handle a mostly sexless marriage. I'm hoping the IC will help me find a way to deal with it, because I really do still love this woman, even with all the crazy history and issues going on today.


This is actually excellent!

I think you should keep doing exactly what you are doing now. Without stating emphatically, "I want you to get therapy and become sexually healed." You are inserting your own boundaries in a subtle and non threatening way. 

Your message is, "I won't come back to our bed unless and until I can come back as a husband to a wife and NOT as a man to the threatened and walled up woman."

This leaves the ball completely in her court, puts the responsibility squarely on her shoulders where it belongs, without threats or ultimatums, promises or negotiation attempts, not to mention pleas for understanding which at this point in the game also mean bending your boundaries so she doesn't have to look at hers.

Excellent!

You going to therapy is going to seriously threaten her. So be prepared for her to pick fights or challenge you in some unrelatable way.

Her making breakfast is a peace offering, a love language. She's showing you she does love you. Stay strong and on the couch, though I am sure it's uncomfortable for you. 

I think you're doing great and making smart moves!


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

Again, he did nothing wrong.

This is her issue and from her distant past.

She did nothing to get therapy from day 1 to present day, 14 or so years later......not changing and doing what's best for the marriage, and taking care of his needs.

Making breakfast once in a blue moon is really nice, but still not taking care of his needs. It's a work around the sex issue. Men need sex, not breakfast made for them.

Be supportive, go to therapy and counseling with her. If she really starts to change, and you get a healthy sex life together for the first time?, fantastic. :smthumbup:

But if nothing really changes, this is her doing and nothing to do with you.

She should of clued in when she married you, that you are a new chapter in her life, blank slate and clean and not her distant past.

She doesn't want to change and deal with this.......14+ years later.......not for you anyway.

Marriage is taking care of each others needs, equally.

I wish you all the best and be strong.:smthumbup:


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Anon he has tried to help her.
He pleaded with her to get help.
Never said that OP is perfect we all make mistakes.
You are really stretching it trying to blame him imo.

The only thing I will blame him on is how long he has put up with this in one way I commend him in another it's the daily passive aggressive abuse of being rejected sexually and being blamed for it all these years.
The decision is his to live sexless or move on.
Or he may want to ask her if he can get his physical needs met elsewhere.
It sounds like it has come to that point.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

At this point, how is blame, or lack thereof, helping anyone at all?

If you're suggesting his actions were so completely harmless that he should feel free to trigger again, to once again grab her hand and force her to masturbate him, knowing full well it is not only not welcome but a hurtful triggering gesture then you couldn't be more wrong!

I agree, the gesture itself is harmless, or should be construed as harmless. But it isn't harmless TO HER, and right now, that's all that matters.

So how to make what should be a harmless playful gesture be recieved as a harmless and playful gesture? 

By doing exactly what he is doing. Don't return to the broken bedroom and pretend it's a normal place. Don't pretend it's perfectly okay for your needs to go ignored. Don't confuse empathy with enabling.


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## ASummersDay (Mar 4, 2013)

Rotor, I really have to commend you. You're trying to do what you can to help your wife. I think your plan of IC and MC is a good one. 

IC will help you determine what you are and are not willing to accept in your marriage. MC will facilitate the tough discussions between you and your wife, and may help her realize that there are options to help her overcome the abuse. And you will be able to say that you tried your damnedest, even if things don't work out.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

ASummersDay said:


> Rotor, I really have to commend you. You're trying to do what you can to help your wife. I think your plan of IC and MC is a good one.
> 
> IC will help you determine what you are and are not willing to accept in your marriage. MC will facilitate the tough discussions between you and your wife, and may help her realize that there are options to help her overcome the abuse. And you will be able to say that you tried your damnedest, even if things don't work out.


:iagree::iagree:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I find it amazing the men pointing the finger and urging a blameless stance are the same men who consistently complain about their own dreary sex lives. Perhaps some of you should follow your own advice? ....Cuddlebug? .....John?....Tom?.... Beuhler? ....Beuhler? .....Beuhler?


The focus is on the end result - sex life - which is expected, and wrong. 

The focus should be in the process of repairing the relationship, and the individuals, not what the outcome would be.

If there is no interest in fixing the issues it's curtains for both of them.

At 14 years in, they have another few good decades to go. They can choose to fix it, they can pretend it isn't there, or they can continue until OP has an affair or walks out.

Maybe she's not fixable - I doubt my own wife is - but if she's not bringing anything to the marriage other than guilt and stress, the list of alternatives dwindles quickly. So, if intimacy is high on OP's list, then some action will be needed.


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> She ended the night saying that she wanted me back in bed with her (no touching still - and she brought it up, I didn't ask) but the idea still caused her some anxiety, so I should stay on the couch for a while longer, which I did.
> 
> Woke up this morning to a nice breakfast, including coffee already made (she never does this!).
> 
> I'm still not sure if I'll be able to handle a mostly sexless marriage. I'm hoping the IC will help me find a way to deal with it, because I really do still love this woman, even with all the crazy history and issues going on today.


 IMO stay on the couch. How hard is it to make a breakfast and a pot of coffee. You put as many spoonful's of coffee in a machine that you want, add water, turn it on and 10 minuets later, Presto! Coffee! Throw a couple eggs in a pan and bread in a toaster and in five minuets you have breakfast. This wasn't a five course gourmet meal and yes it was nice of her to do it, but when you have a stick in your eye, you don't pull your pants down and check your ass for splinters. 

What she's doing is skirting the real problem that is getting worse by the day. No one here is condoning sexual abuse or any kind of abuse on anyone be it man or woman but until she realizes that she has a issue pertaining to sex and will not seek help, your going to continue to walk on egg shells. How you got this far for a long as you and her have been married is unbelievable. 

Touching each other in bed is a normal thing in marriage and then to make a remark like she did is in my opinion very dangerous.

Keep to the couch and privacy when showering and dressing. If she asks why your acting like that, the best thing I can tell you is to sit her down and make her listen when you tell her that when she threw out the rape word, it scared the living daylights out of you because it's something that a man can not get over if accused either by a stranger or his wife. Tell her that it cut you deeply and because of that your afraid that anything you do even by accident may cause her to trigger and you will not be labeled a rapist or her claiming rape because a cop will not likely let you explain yourself and for the most part take her word and your whole life will be shot to hell. 

Then while you have her undivided attention let her know that the only way this will be resolved is not a nice breakfast or sleeping in the same bed where if you get just a bit too close it will throw her out of wack and another accusation flies out of her mouth so until she agrees to counseling to get this matter under control and resolved, your sleeping on the couch.

One more thing. We all like sex (well most of us do) and having sex with a woman who has her mindset the way it is now is like putting your penis in a meat grinder. Reminds me of the small male tarantula mating with the giant female and after running for his life before he gets eaten.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> The focus is on the end result - sex life - which is expected, and wrong.
> 
> The focus should be in the process of repairing the relationship, and the individuals, not what the outcome would be.
> 
> ...


I was about 37 when I started my healing. About 15 years into our highly dysfunctional marriage! Took about two years to become mostly functional and it has continued to improve ever since. Ever since I made the declarative statement to my husband: I want us to have a good sex life and I know that means I have to get my sh!t together!


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

6301 said:


> IMO stay on the couch. How hard is it to make a breakfast and a pot of coffee.


Just a small point - she always makes breakfast, it was the coffee that, in my mind, was just a nice gesture, a small apology or indication that she doesn't hate me. I'm not at all saying it makes all the problems go away, but to me, it's still a positive action that indicates a willingness to forgive.



6301 said:


> until she realizes that she has a issue pertaining to sex and will not seek help, your going to continue to walk on egg shells. How you got this far for a long as you and her have been married is unbelievable.


She wasn't always like this - for years, she was highly sexually active. Never liked touching me or doing oral, but I was ok with that because I got anal occasionally (a fetish for me), and the frequency was like twice a day or more for the longest time. Now, no anal, and it's 4-5 times a month, in a good month.

The problem now is rooted strongly in her medical issues, which showed up about 2 years ago. 

The problem I'm having, I think I realized today, is that I've lost a lot of battles, a lot of standing, in this marriage, over the years (money, hobbies, basically I have to yield to her on everything)... and it seems to me that the reason intimacy and sex are so important to me is that they're the only fight left that I haven't lost. Unfortunately, with her medical issues, it's a fight I cannot possibly win.

It also means that I don't know if I can stand up to her and say no to physical contact, even if she says she's ready - because that's the one thing I want, and I can't afford to risk losing it by saying no. The way she is, she latches on to one-time events and applies the consequences permanently. Once it's gone, there's really no reason for me to say here.

So I'm back to IC for me and MC for us as the only possible way forward. I've got to learn to stand up for myself and take some of my losses back, so that intimacy and sex can be lower on my list.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I was about 37 when I started my healing. About 15 years into our highly dysfunctional marriage! Took about two years to become mostly functional and it has continued to improve ever since. Ever since I made the declarative statement to my husband: I want us to have a good sex life and I know that means I have to get my sh!t together!


I would definitely wait the two years if my wife made a statement like that, and then actually worked towards it.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Are your children the same age as she was when the sex abuse happened?


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> Are your children the same age as she was when the sex abuse happened?


Honestly, I'm not sure. I wouldn't be surprised. I don't really think I can ask right now, though.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> I was about 37 when I started my healing. About 15 years into our highly dysfunctional marriage! Took about two years to become mostly functional and it has continued to improve ever since. Ever since I made the declarative statement to my husband: I want us to have a good sex life and I know that means I have to get my sh!t together!


You may not have realized it for now but highly dysfunctional is in the eye of the beholder. I feel TAM serves 90% of its purpose by pointing out that no matter how deep the sh!t we're in, there's someone who is in deeper. Yet those individuals serve as our inspiration.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

john117 said:


> You may not have realized it for now but highly dysfunctional is in the eye of the beholder. I feel TAM serves 90% of its purpose by pointing out that no matter how deep the sh!t we're in, there's someone who is in deeper. Yet those individuals serve as our inspiration.


:rofl:

That's a frightening thought!


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

john117 said:


> You may not have realized it for now but highly dysfunctional is in the eye of the beholder. I feel TAM serves 90% of its purpose by pointing out that no matter how deep the sh!t we're in, there's someone who is in deeper. Yet those individuals serve as our inspiration.


That's why I'm out of the politics and religion section.

Too many headaches:lol:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> :rofl:
> 
> That's a frightening thought!


Check out the "BPD Wife" thread for proof 

These people - myself included - are well past the "forgot our anniversary" type issues...


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

Does anyone watch 'Keene and Peele' - Substitute Teacher to be precise? Every time this thread gets bumped up and I see the title I say "You done messed up, Bu-la-kay."

Just as an aside.

Look it up on youtube.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

The good news is nothing is ever going to be the same.

Sounds like she has come back from a very scary place she was instantly transported to when you hit the trigger, and can see you are not a rapist, and can see value in having you in her life.

Sounds like you are on the right track getting IC. The damage the last 14 years has done to you is very real, and must be healed before your head is clear enough and your heart strong enough to make your next big steps be in the right direction.

If you can get her to be interested in MC, and the MC is good, then there is a chance the marriage counselor can say things to her that she needs to hear - and she start to hear and accept their truth - that she has not been able to hear from you (regardless of whether you have said them).

There are similarities between your situation and mine, though no CSA here Afaik.

It has mostly been counterproductive to tell my wife she could benefit from IC, as it gives her the chance to react against it dramatically enough that she is able to evade knowledge of the problems that we face and the consequences of them going unsolved. Lately, I have taken the approach of allowing awareness of the unsolved issues linger in the air as long as possible, and resist the instant temptation to suggest a solution (such as IC for her), and the temptation to minimize the appearance of its impact on me. An example is me saying: If you are not comfortable with me holding you in my arms at night while you fall asleep, the nightly ritual I so long for to return, and it actually causes you stress and to feel more distant from me, then we need to face that fact...So until I hear that something has changed in you to be open to that, then that part of our relationship is done... I am not willing to let myself lay in bed hoping you will come and lay down so I can hold you, and you shouldn't have to feel uncomfortable because I have wrapped you in my arms.

The approach is still new, but it feels better and she seems to be taking on some responsibility to fix what she can.

The fact this has gone on for you two for 14 years is sad, but I don't think it means you are doomed. She has not faced her issues -- whatever they may be including the CSA/PTSD -- because she has not had too. Perhaps you spent significant energy through the years to bear the burden of her and you not facing reality of what was broken in each of you and in your marriage, and you just hit bottom. Now, you are going to fix yourself and she nay ir may nit fix herself, but there are -- naturally -- going to be consequences for her if she doesnt work on herself (you will noy be content any more to buffer her from realities of her time before and tine with you). There are indeed things you can do to pull yourself back up and also let her feel the weight of things that -- should she choose -- are within her power to drop and move beyond.

You don't have to decide now how it is going to turn out. Just keep with the IC, and at somepoint get her and you into MC.

I was pretty doom and gloom a month or two ago (and much of the 13 - 20 years prior), but am starting to see real change in my wife that never seemed possible before.

I wish you and your wife the best.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

I like this one

It's Not About The Nail - YouTube


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> I think you should keep doing exactly what you are doing now. Without stating emphatically, "I want you to get therapy and become sexually healed." You are inserting your own boundaries in a subtle and non threatening way.
> 
> Your message is, "I won't come back to our bed unless and until I can come back as a husband to a wife and NOT as a man to the threatened and walled up woman."
> 
> This leaves the ball completely in her court, puts the responsibility squarely on her shoulders where it belongs, without threats or ultimatums, promises or negotiation attempts, not to mention pleas for understanding which at this point in the game also mean bending your boundaries so she doesn't have to look at hers.


While I will defer to those with more experience dealing with this subject, I don't see this as an approach that can be maintained long term. It seems clear based on her actions and words that she is using his screw-up in a defensive to prevent have to deal with her own issues (even if subconsciously). There is a lot of symbolism in a man being sent to sleep on the couch. To make this a long term situation is unfair to him.

I see a danger of this level of disengagement becoming the new norm. At some point, he will need to enforce his own boundaries and look after his own needs. She will very likely accuse him of threatening her. He will need to stand firm.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

1438 Third said:


> I have to tell you - I am a woman and I know you love your wife. Sexually I know I like to sometimes push my husbands comfort zone and It excites me more. I know your wife has been abused and I am sorry for her- the problem is that you aren't facing your needs together openly with her. She is unable to give you what you would like and then you are trying to fulfill yourself in ways that don't sit right with you because you are a good husband. Your best bet is to watch some porn for a few nights- get a grip and approach her nicely which it sounds like you do already. You need to be delicate and tell her what your hopes are for you two sexually - I know the porn sounds weird or bad but it is a release that takes the pressure off of the woman you love who has obviously been badly hurt


With someone like his wife, facing his needs together will do nothing. She is not LD, or ND/sex-neutral. She is sex-averse. She probably not validate any need for sex (since she sees it as harmful); at best she will see it as "nice to have but not importart and not worth my pain".

Porn is a terrible idea, again because to her there is no need for sex. She will see it as gross and abusive, and further proof that he is just a user of women (even though that's not true).

Since he's already apologized, the next step should be to note that he needs XYZ sexually, and she needs to step up and get some therapy for herself. If she will not, then there is no need to go forward in this marriage.

She pulled the "if you leave I will get everything" card in this marriage. So, he needs to note that he will fight tooth and nail to get as much custody of the kids as possible, will likely get 50% (that's the standard), and will do what he can to have her get as little support for herself as possible (the kids will be well taken care of).

I've seen some of this in my ex, and I don't think someone in the OP's wife's state of mind can do a good job raising well-adjusted kids. I see girls getting the "boys just hurt and use you" treatment and sexual shame. I see boys being shamed for developing sexually as they begin to date and pursue girls.


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## DTO (Dec 18, 2011)

Rotorhead77 said:


> I think I need to be reading this MMSL thing and doing the MAP thing, too. Been driving a desk and being a willing Beta for too damn long.


I don't think that will work. Those are predicated on there being some level of base sexual attraction that you can rekindle (or not inhibit) by taking or avoiding certain behaviors). Your wife does not have that due to the sex abuse.

Your best bet is to see that the abuse, bad as it was, is hers to overcome. You need to detach and understand that it's not your job to help her sweep it under the rug and sacrifice yourself in the process. And, you need to be sure of this in your mind since, to your wife, your sex drive is not valid and anything you do to get it met (or compensate for the lack thereof) is going to cause a backlash.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I would encourage you to simply be realistic. Were I in your place, I think I would have to treat this like I would treat my alcoholic brother. The proof is in the pudding, not the remonstrations over its cooking. 

If she wants to go to counseling, assume her share of the blame and responsibility in repairing your marriage, and genuinely makes the effort, then you support her with every ounce of your being. But talk is cheap, making coffee is cheap, and letting you back in the bed with no hope of intimacy only cheapens you. 

But in the end, it's the actions that speak, the road to hell being paved with the best intentions and all. You will know her commitment to your marriage, and her to yours, by what the two of you actually DO and accomplish.

Anon speaks of requiring two years of work on her part to partially fix her sexual past. That seems like a reasonable time frame for some success - truth be told, that sounds better than reasonable. But it can't take forever. Patience and support is not carte blanche for a never ending continuation of the status quo. If after a year or two you don't see noticeable and significant improvement, then you will have your answer as to whether or not success is even possible.

So prepare yourself both for the possibility of success or failure. What are you willing to do to fix this, and what are you required of yourself to do if it cannot be fixed?


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

The victim-blaming and ignorance to CSA is strong with this thread. Very strong.

I know I have had weeks of being hyper-aware and triggered. WEEKS. I cannot comprehend telling a victim to essentially get therapy on the spouse's terms and "service" him. It's an injury. She also has a peripheral nerve illness some of you know nothing about. Imagine your fingers, toes, arms and legs feeling like they're in that painful part of getting feeling back after they've 'been asleep'. Imagine that happening for hours or days at a time, unpredictably.

If that were me and my H suggested I suck it up and have sex, he'd be drop kicked through the goal posts of life. What part of the vows do you all not get? I arrived here a month ago questioning whether I should stay in my mostly sexless marriage with a male CSA survivor who is lollygagging on IC, and was urged to look at my part. More than once person reminded me that I took a vow which included "in sickness and in health", not "on Tiki's healing time line."

It's amazing rotor's not getting the same advice. Rotor, please read up on CSA effects in adults. Please find literature for spouses of survivors as well. You seem like you're in this for the long haul, and I admire you for that. But for the love of Pete (and any other saints and deities you like), get a copy of "Ghosts in the Bedroom" and read it like yesterday. That book convinced my H not to leave me and to stop giving me ultimatums when I was the slowpoke in healing.

Acceptance is a big deal. Being a true partner in marriage and in healing is an even bigger deal. Are you really willing to trash your marriage to a woman showing signs of becoming willing to heal? She will always be a survivor. You will always be a secondary victim.

ETA: this link to the book and to also suggest "Allies in Healing". I believe you cannot say you've done everything possible on your end until reading these. That's how much I believe these books' message(s).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In sickness and in health is a bit different than in sickness and I'm not doing anything about it...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

TikiKeen said:


> The victim-blaming and ignorance to CSA is strong with this thread. Very strong.


And when the victim is a big part of the problem, is it not appropriate to affix some blame? Seems to me there's a pretty big difference between survivors who want to get better to have functioning, healthy relationships and those who do not.

One is to be encouraged and worked with in a warm, loving, accepting environment. The other can hope for the same, but shouldn't be surprised if he finds it impossible to manage. 

At what point in a multi-decade failure of intimacy is it OK to actually blame the responsible party?


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

TikiKeen said:


> Are you really willing to trash your marriage to a woman showing signs of becoming willing to heal?


If she were showing signs of being willing to heal, that would be an easy question to answer. 

But she's not. She agreed to go to MC as part of MY healing, not of hers. She's still refusing to admit that she has any problem of any kind - or rather, has any healing of her own to do.

I'll read those books, though... anything to be sure I've done all I can so I'm not leaving as the bad guy.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Rotorhead77 said:


> I'll read those books, though... anything to be sure I've done all I can so I'm not leaving as the bad guy.


I see that as a red flag for you. Why do you keep focusing on whether you are the "bad guy" or not? Why no worry about her and your marriage?

That comes across as selfish, rather than being concerned about your wife and family.

With that attitude, you will fail. Decide if that is what you want.


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## VanessaR (Nov 12, 2013)

soulsearch said:


> is she in therapy? if yes, get an appointment asap. if no, get her an appointment asap.
> 
> this is something she needs professional help with. YOU didn't do anything, but her world view is distorted by the mental damage she's suffered from the abuse. that's going to need help to untangle.


I will have to agree with this...I know a lot of people who suffered sexual abuse in the past, and believe me, it doesn't get better unless she confronts this issue through therapy. Otherwise there will always be fear and a skewed outlook on men, sex, etc. 

It will take time. You need to be very patient.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Tall Average Guy said:


> I see that as a red flag for you. Why do you keep focusing on whether you are the "bad guy" or not? Why no worry about her and your marriage?
> 
> That comes across as selfish, rather than being concerned about your wife and family.
> 
> With that attitude, you will fail. Decide if that is what you want.


How is it selfish for me to want to make sure I do everything I can to help this marriage succeed? To make sure the damage already done is repaired as well as it can be, and future damage is avoided? And to try my best to cope with a situation that is highly unfair to both of us?

But if it's selfish of me to think that I shouldn't have to be the only one trying, then so be it, I guess I'm selfish. When I say I don't want to be the bad guy, I mean that I don't want to be the one not trying.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> If she were showing signs of being willing to heal, that would be an easy question to answer.
> 
> But she's not. She agreed to go to MC as part of MY healing, not of hers. She's still refusing to admit that she has any problem of any kind - or rather, has any healing of her own to do.
> 
> I'll read those books, though... anything to be sure I've done all I can so I'm not leaving as the bad guy.


It doesn't matter why she agreed to go. If your therapist has been working with you then hopefully your therapist can ask some probing questions to get her thinking. There won't be an "aha" moment but the light will slowly dawn and keep growing until she is committed enough to say some things outloud. I think this is a positive sign, but it depends on how stubborn and controlling she is.

Are you planning on leaving or are you planning on making a final stand for a healthy marriage?

In reading and participating in TAM for just the last 11 months it has been obvious that when dealing with a resistant spouse they tend to only respond to real believable ultimatums. My own marriage has also proved this true.

Not until they can see it in your eyes and hear it in your voice, does the light bulb go off that if they do want this marriage, they have to work for it. I read how your wife suggested you might be happier elsewhere, but I tend to think she was preemptively calling your bluff.

Begin therapy and go several times. Stay away from her for a few weeks. Then tell her, you will not live this way. She can seek help or you both can seek to amicably part ways. But wanting a full life that includes loving and giving and openness and sharing and vulnerability does not make you a bad guy. When she sees how steadfast you are, I BET she WILL come around and seek help.

Just like being a good parent, sometimes you have to be willing to make them uncomfortable in order to help them be stronger.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

She may come around because of the Ultimatum but if not, or if she calls the bluff and she asks to split ahead of him, my crystal ball foresees possible epic legal battles. 

It is in cases like those that careful observation throughout the marriage and deep understanding of one's spouse pay off. If there is the slightest resentment on her behalf Or if she is the sinister type - and the type that is willing to sacrifice the family unity for herself - then she files early and things get very bad in a hurry. 

It is just a thought but people in stress tend to act in strange ways. Any thoughts?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

While you have a point, the goal has to be defined by the OP. He says he loves his wife and wants to make it work, but he knows now that it won't work without her full participation. Yes, he has to maneuver himself into the supportive and loving husband role. But no, he should NOT do this for appearance sake.

I always think honesty is the best policy. I feel like we're all shooting for that crystal ball and playing chess based on predictions no one can really predict. So why not approach things with honesty and integrity?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Honesty is the best policy assuming no hidden agendas and resentment. I would think 14 years without addressing the issue and dwindling intimate life sort of suggest the possibility of hidden agendas and resentments.

But I have been known to be paranoid in the past Crystal balls and game theory are not always reliable predictors of human behavior.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> It doesn't matter why she agreed to go. If your therapist has been working with you then hopefully your therapist can ask some probing questions to get her thinking. There won't be an "aha" moment but the light will slowly dawn and keep growing until she is committed enough to say some things outloud. I think this is a positive sign, but it depends on how stubborn and controlling she is.
> 
> Are you planning on leaving or are you planning on making a final stand for a healthy marriage?
> 
> ...


There is a lot of truth on that.

I think it has helped for my wife to see my genuine expressions of sadness at what we have lost out on through the years. It has helped for her to see I am determined to rebuild myself with or without her, but that I am willing to fight and work hard on what I can to close the distance between us, but that I can only do so much.

The ultimatum that I am heading towards a fulfilling life with or without her, and I want very much for it to be with her, caused her to react with anger -- very much so. But, it has been there in her mind I think. And at times I think she has stepped up a bit when she sees I cannot tolerate certain things, especially a lack of action towards healing, much longer.

Don't be confused into thinking the only thing she can do is continue to let these issues be one, of possible other, barriers to a trusting loving intimate connection. What is needed is that something change, so she and you will both have to adapt. The only thing you can change is you, and you can do that with visible intent to live a happy life. As you proceed to do that, it may make her uncomfortable enough to face her fears of looking inward and at her responsibilities as a loving equal partner.

Don't expect her to want to go to MC for the reasons you think she should. She is scared. There are lots if things for her to be scared of there (not literally, but her subconscious finds it all threatening). Most of us are that way even without something as emotionally overpowering as CSA. That we might change, or find we need to change, or find our partner isn't 100% to blame for the losses in our marriage, or find only ourselves can do certain parts of the work that is required, or find out how really close our partner is to giving up, or how much our behaviors including neglect have been hurting our partners --- these and other things make it difficult to get in the counselor's door.

Be glad if you can get her there. Build from there.

And, somehow do the impossible: make it clear that this is serious, that you will not accept much more of the lifeless marriage you have had, but also that you love her dearly and do not want to split your family and see her and you have to deal with all the loss that comes with divorce. But you need her to be present, and active, in the fight to build the loving relationship you want for you both.

Just some thoughts. My life is screwed up, so reader beware


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

TikkiKeen,

I have no way to understand what a CSA survivor has had to deal with. I assume it is one of the most difficult and painful things anyone has had to deal with. I am sorry to see anyone suffer for any reason, especially someone so innocent who was victimized.

I'd agree that any suggestions she just suck it up and be a good spouse in the bed room are overlooking an important truth of her, and his, existence. To me, the order that might work is to first face what is really affecting them individually and as a couple. I would guess for her, the CSA still burdens her (but, admittedly, I really don't know). And surely there are other issues, some his, some hers, and some just are.

I think it can be a loving act to let another feel a bit of discomfort about the underlying causes in in a suffering relationship. It's just hard to know how to support someone without taking away their incentive to make themselves strong. Get it wrong, there is stagnation and eventual collapse. Get it right, and love nourishes them both. The risk here at TAM is none of us know but a dozen or so posts worth of information of what is going on in a OP's relationship and spouses mind, and at the same time we are painfully aware of the very personal situations that brought us here. Not a recipe for consensus or accuracy!

I can only hope OPs can, as they say, take what they need and leave the rest. And folks speak up when they feel too much emphasis has been placed on one viewpoint. Maybe then this place can help.

Just my thoughts.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> How is it selfish for me to want to make sure I do everything I can to help this marriage succeed? To make sure the damage already done is repaired as well as it can be, and future damage is avoided? And to try my best to cope with a situation that is highly unfair to both of us?
> 
> But if it's selfish of me to think that I shouldn't have to be the only one trying, then so be it, I guess I'm selfish. When I say I don't want to be the bad guy, I mean that I don't want to be the one not trying.


Your rational self-interest and hers do not conflict. 

You wanting to do what you can possibly do is a good thing. 

Selfish is one of my least favorite words, because it is often used to accuse someone of demanding something unfairly or acting AGAINST the interest of others, and people start to believe it is inherently wrong to act IN one's own interest. 

In this case I think it is strongly in your wife's and children's interest to do what you can to get you all help, work on yourself regardless - and to weigh your own happiness heavily, in ultimately deciding the next steps. Nothing wrong with wanting to be happy, working to be happy, and requiring your partner to put effort into changing what can be changed. In fact, in that I only see good. Good for you because your own happiness is important, and properly yours to honor and care for. Good for her, because she loves and needs you, and for her to skip out on changing what she can change and healing what she can heal would be a waste of her days here, and harmful to you and the kids. Good for the kids because they need you to be both happy and fulfilled. And good for you again because you love them all..


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

If you strip some of the emotion out of this, here's the situation as I understand it:

1. You want sexual intimacy 
2. She can't do sexual intimacy 
3. Fixing the problem possible could happen IF she willingly pursued agressive counselling with a really good counsellor.
4. She's nowhere near willing to go to counselling

Is that right?

I read the first page of this thread and thought: He misjudged things, but if his life hangs in the balance of being perfect or slightly selfish/horny/flawed, this guy is guy is totally f*cked.

You were horny and tried to act on it. It was a bad result. A sh*t storm has ensued.

If you want to stay in this marriage then, man, good for you. But don't have ANY illusions it is going to get better. It will not. You have almost no influence over her willingness to seek therapy, PLUS the odds of finding that one great therapist are very low.

If nothing else, you need to be realistic with yourself.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

seeking sanity said:


> If you strip some of the emotion out of this, here's the situation as I understand it:
> 
> 1. You want sexual intimacy
> 2. She can't do sexual intimacy
> ...


:iagree::iagree:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

seeking sanity said:


> If nothing else, you need to be realistic with yourself.


In many relationships reality has departed long ago....


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## Row Jimmy (Apr 15, 2013)

I think Seeking Sanity nailed it. 

It's seems like the truth :-(


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Thought things were getting better over the weekend - she came downstairs to watch Star Wars with us while we played Legos (kids' request), and we were all joking about the how my oldest daughter tried to burn the house down making lunch... But after the movie she went right back to not being able to look at me, not wanting to talk to me.

Got home from work yesterday to find it even worse. She cried heavily at bedtime. I went up to talk to her, to try to see what I'd done to make it worse.. and she crushed me: I went on a business trip recently, and while I was gone she learned guitar as a surprise for me. Apparently she tried to practice, and it was too sad, and so the guitar has been retired. She said that I was the only one she had to go to to talk to, and for comfort, when things got bad, and now she has no one, and feels all alone. I brought up the therapy option, and she said she didn't want to talk to a stranger.

I'm going in for outpatient surgery in 2 days, and she'll have to care for me while I recover at home. How she will be able to do that when she can't look at me or touch me is anyone's guess.

She's taking her biweekly shot for her medical condition right now. That usually gives her a boost for about a week, so we might see some improvement, but I'm not counting on it.



seeking sanity said:


> If you strip some of the emotion out of this, here's the situation as I understand it:
> 
> 1. You want sexual intimacy
> 2. She can't do sexual intimacy
> ...


2. She's limited in what she can or will do (frequency as well as content)
4. She's certainly is expressing resistance, but part of me thinks there's a possibility of convincing her, eventually.

I know this is going to take time, but... this is hard. All I wanted was to be closer to her, and now I can't get close to her at all.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> All I wanted was to be closer to her, and now I can't get close to her at all.


Have you told her this? It may be important for her to know you have fears and are also feeling a loss, no less real than hers, over what has happened recently. 

It might also be helpful for her to know it is not just physical "sex" that is a concern.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> Have you told her this? It may be important for her to know you have fears and are also feeling a loss, no less real than hers, over what has happened recently.


I have, repeatedly. It's pretty much the core of what I say - because it's true.



PieceOfSky said:


> It might also be helpful for her to know it is not just physical "sex" that is a concern.


I've explained this to her as well, but... I love her, but once she makes up her mind about something, it's impossible to convince her otherwise.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

How does she respond when you tell her this?


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> How does she respond when you tell her this?


To the former, not much at all, maybe more crying. 

To the latter - disbelief, calling me a liar, "just saying that", giving me what she feels are examples of times when non-sexual physical affection from her was turned, or attempted to be turned, into a sexual act by me...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Depending on the accuracy and perceived frequency of occurrence in the above statement I would be investing in a comfortable, padded milking stool for your wife's convenience as she does sound like she's milking it for all it's worth.

In a healthy relationship a good amount of physical intimacy is initiated by a non physical process. That's how it is. Sometimes it works and sometimes it does not, but a healthy relationship can handle it just fine. But if she has decided that even non physical intimacy has the potential to lead to undesired physical intimacy then her mind has been made up, long before the recent incident.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

TikiKeen said:


> I know I have had weeks of being hyper-aware and triggered. WEEKS.


During this time of being triggered, did you accuse your husband of rape? Did you refuse to acknowledge the possibility of ever improving? I'm betting not.

Roto's wife didn't withdraw by explaining that Roto's actions triggered irrational, but real, feelings that she must spend some time dealing with. That is reasonable behavior and Roto would have supported her completely.

Instead, she withdrew insisting that he had raped her, that he is a dangerous sexual criminal who can't be trusted, and that she is completely rational and reasonable. That behavior is unreasonable and Roto should not do her the disservice of pretending that the world is flat so she doesn't get upset.



> I cannot comprehend telling a victim to essentially get therapy on the spouse's terms and "service" him. It's an injury.


Nobody has suggested that she immediately let it go and jump on him for sex. We've suggested that she must try to do as much as she can. And she is unwilling to try anything at all.

Marriage vows are important. But they're not a suicide pact. If Roto's wife is unwilling to have sex with him, and insists that he should accept a celibate marriage as a condition of being with her, otherwise she will take away his children, his house, and much of his wealth and income, then she's not fulfilling her marriage vows. I'm not comfortable advising Roto that his duty is to accept that.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

Rotorhead77 said:


> To the latter - disbelief, calling me a liar, "just saying that", giving me what she feels are examples of times when non-sexual physical affection from her was turned, or attempted to be turned, into a sexual act by me...


Of course you try to turn non-sexual affection into sexual affection. You're being deprived of your sexual needs.

Imagine you were literally starving. And I came to you with a plate of food. But I told you that you're not allowed to eat the food. You can only smell it. Then, I set the plate in front of you and turn my back. Of course, you will try to eat some of the food. When I discover this, I admonish you about how I can't trust you. You only think of yourself. You're a bad guy. No. You're starving. You behaved reasonably.

Buying into your wife's frame is dangerous. It hurts your self image unnecessarily. You can't actually believe that wanting to have a sexual relationship with your wife makes you a bad guy. But that's exactly what your wife insists that you believe before she will consider forgiving you.

So, you have to make a choice. Do you divorce her and look for a sexual marriage elsewhere? Do you give in and accept the blame for her irrational beliefs? Do you pretend to give in and play a game of manipulation in order to lead her to a better place? Or do you stand firm and give her the chance to heal, or lose you?

Good luck.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Rotorhead77 said:


> How is it selfish for me to want to make sure I do everything I can to help this marriage succeed? To make sure the damage already done is repaired as well as it can be, and future damage is avoided? And to try my best to cope with a situation that is highly unfair to both of us?
> 
> But if it's selfish of me to think that I shouldn't have to be the only one trying, then so be it, I guess I'm selfish. When I say I don't want to be the bad guy, I mean that I don't want to be the one not trying.


You are missing my point. Words matter. Your choice of words sure sounded like you were all in this for how you looked, rather than your wife and your marriage. If she is throwing up that everything you do is about sex, words like this will just give her more ammunition.

She certainly needs to work as well, and I have made that point in a couple of posts.

But so do you. You can only control you, so start the process. Do it because your marriage, your wife and your children are important to you, not because of how you will appear to others. People can often figure out the motivations of others. So watch why you are doing it. If it is only to keep up appearances, leave for both of you.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> To the former, not much at all, maybe more crying.
> 
> To the latter - disbelief, calling me a liar, "just saying that", giving me what she feels are examples of times when non-sexual physical affection from her was turned, or attempted to be turned, into a sexual act by me...


So in the past, when non sexual affection escalated into sexual touching, she grouped general affection from and with you into the danger zone, neccessitating that you are kept at arms length.

She has to relearn sexuality, relearn affection from and with a man. I completely identify with her statement and grew to hate my husbands touch because it was never JUST affection and only ever meant he wanted sex from me. Now I was wrong and I had to learn that. But I can still feel that intense anger I felt then even though I know I misinterpreted things. Talking won't show her that this perception is wrong.

You have to show her you can be affectionate without sex. You have to show her you can cuddle without sex. She has to learn to trust affection FIRST before she can trust any other kind of touch. This means you touch her, then do not allow it to escalate. You might even tell her you want to hold her hand but nothing else. You want to hold her, but nothing else. You want to cuddle on the couch but nothing else.

It also means that while you and she are relearning affection with firm boundaries, you're likely to get an erection. If you do, ignore it. If she notices, tell her to ignore it. Remind her that you DO have control over your behavior and the fact that you have an erection isn't going to harm her.

To the first piece, when you tell her you just needed to feel close to her and now you are farther than you've ever been and her response is to cry but not respond. Is she crying because she feels your pain and is empathizing with you? Is she crying because she is still so hurt by what happened? Is she crying because she doesn't really understand how she feels but the distance between you two hurst her too? Ask her. Show her you are trying to understand how she feels by asking what the tears mean.


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## justonelife (Jul 29, 2010)

Roto - Your wife seems to be lumping you together with the criminal sicko that abused her years ago. This is very dangerous thinking on her part. You screwed up. She feels violated. I get that. But part of what makes a particular act "criminal" or not comes down to intent.

I would ask your wife - Does she think you *intended* to hurt her by what you did? Does she really believe you are capable of purposely causing her pain for your own gratification? Is that the person she has been married to for 14 years? Is that who she wants around her children? If she really thinks that you are no better than a child molester, then she's right. You need therapy and she should probably divorce you immediately.

However, if she can at least consider the possibility that you just made an honest mistake with no intention of hurting her, then maybe she needs to honestly assess her role in all of this. If her basically good, loving husband just made a mistake, then why does she feel like she can't trust you? Why is she so upset? This was a trigger and she needs to learn to deal with that.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Is she crying because she feels your pain and is empathizing with you? Is she crying because she is still so hurt by what happened? Is she crying because she doesn't really understand how she feels but the distance between you two hurst her too?


Our talk last night covered this, I think. What I understood from what she said is that it's the distance between us now is what's causing the most pain. It's almost certainly not empathy for me.

Of course, the distance is there because I violated her trust and became a source of anxiety and threat rather than trust and comfort.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

justonelife said:


> I would ask your wife - Does she think you *intended* to hurt her by what you did? Does she really believe you are capable of purposely causing her pain for your own gratification?


I don't think it's a matter of *intent* to cause pain, but rather a *willingness* to violate trust to acquire what I want.

And yes, we've discussed that if she thinks I can't control myself and will continue to be willing to violate her trust to get what I want, that she will have no choice but to leave.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> Our talk last night covered this, I think. What I understood from what she said is that it's the distance between us now is what's causing the most pain.
> 
> Of course, the distance is there because I violated her trust and became a source of anxiety and threat rather than trust and comfort.


according to her thinking, is there anything in her behavior prior to the incident that has caused the distance to grow, or is it all on you? Does she even acknowledge her contribution to the chasm?

To what extent you can explain your case to her and make it understood and even accepted remains to be seen of course, MC would introduce an unbiased or less biased view of the whole relationship which would have way more provenance over your biased view and her biased view...


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

john117 said:


> according to her thinking, is there anything in her behavior prior to the incident that has caused the distance to grow, or is it all on you? Does she even acknowledge her contribution to the chasm?


So far as I know, in her mind she made her limits (due to her past issues) known from the very beginning, and I accepted those limits. Since then, according to her, the development of her medical issue is the only thing on her end that is contributing to the lack of physical contact.

According to me, however, she was willing to stretch those limits more in the beginning, and has closed them off as time has gone on. This includes eliminating activities that I'm pretty sure she used to enjoy, although some she denies enjoying and some she denies ever having happened.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

In the past, my wife has claimed that her unwillingness to even kiss me is because I "always try to escalate it to sex." No amount of protest or listing of evidence to the contrary would convince her otherwise -- believe me, I've tried. 

It is a deception and deflection. The many times I took the bait and tried to convince her otherwise has lead to stasis.

The key has been to let that absurd claim go, and focus on what prompted her to deflect, which was me stating "You are now unwilling to even kiss me passionately. I just get a peck and you turn your head away. What does that mean?"

What it meant, and the ugly truth -- but it was the truth -- was that she had so much hatred/anger/resentment towards me that she found me -- the loving father of her children who would and has done anything for her -- repulsive. Uncovering THAT led to progress. Talking yet again how some attack on my alleged behavior wasn't fair and was not justified by the facts got us no where. See the difference?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> Our talk last night covered this, I think. What I understood from what she said is that *it's the distance between us now is what's causing the most pain.* It's almost certainly not empathy for me.


So she does feel empathy for you. She is not liking the disconnect that she feels as a result of your physical distance and the prohibition to you touching her at all. She WANTS to feel close to you even if she blames you. This is good! This is something to build on.

Tell her you want her to tell you when to hold her hand, when to hug her or hold her. In fact, let her see you reach out and pull away. Let her come to you. To do this you show her through eye contact and soft words, I want to hug you right now but I'll wait. I want to just kiss you right now but I'll wait.

You are still on the couch right? Don't move back to a broken bedroom. Move back into a healing bedroom, but not a broken bedroom.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Rotor if she won't go get help this m is over. Talk is cheap. As far as actions go she has done nothing. You two can talk till you look like blue man group nothing will change sorry.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Why is it so important to throw such negativity in this? He is just at the beginning stage of actually dealing with this. I just feel like support should be based in reality but doesn't have to be doom and gloom. He's got 14 years of "contented discontent" to bring out into the open.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Anon you just answered the question 14 years it's enough
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Reflecting on some of the recent posts...

1) Absolutely you have to be clear in your mind that your needs are not unusual or bad or the problem. If, like some of us here, you've endured years where the affection given to you has gotten less and less; if you get mere scraps whenever she feels for whatever reason a desire to keep you reel you back in a bit; if you feel as if you don't deserve physical intimacy with her, or that wanting or needing it means you are week; if any of that rings true, then you are in a very unhealthy place. If so, know that you are not alone, or not bad guy for wanting.

Intellectually, you may understand that a loving relationship includes physical intimacy, but you may not feel like that's the case; you may feel like you want something unimportant, base, vile even.

If so, reading in this forum may help. As will IC.


2) She won't have empathy for you now. She may in the future. To have empathy for you now would require to recognize and own that she has made choices that left herself with a propensity to react as she did to the incident that started off this thread; she has made choices that left you feeling starved for an emotional connection with her, and a powerfully emotional physical connection.

I recognize, as I'm sure you do to, the scary pain the act triggered in her, and I have much sympathy for her and what she is trying to process. Yet, I also have much sympathy for you, for I know what it is like to be laying close to someone who has rejected you so many times and in so many ways -- not just requests or advances towards sex -- but in lots of other ways too. To smell her scent, to feel her warmth next to you, to see her unclothed body occasionally. The longing one can feel is like torture. And she lays there sleeping, oblivious to the pain inside, content not to have to face her fears and real reasons for the disowning of any concern for her partners needs. Content to avoid putting energy into facing the problems and solving them. Rationally, it would be quite legitimate to be very angry at the emotionally and physically unavailable partner. Yet, the longing for connection is so powerful the anger is not felt and in its place is pain, directed inward.

3) Sure it is important to be realistic, and not assume she will do the work in MC or IC. But, in the meantime you can be working on yourself, and restoring your belief that you are capable and deserving of having the sort of relationship in your life you desire. Let her show you, through her actions or inactions during that time, whether she will be the one you have that relationship with.

In short, if you do something different and healthy and not-enabling now, she may surprise you when she finds herself out of her comfort zone.

4) You have been bearing the weight of her choices to not face the things that need to be faced, and to not be a fully-present and committed partner. You need to find ways for her to bear some of that weight. If being physically with her and you both feel good about it, consider telling her you wish it could be different, but you accept for now that she is not in a place and YOU are not in a place where physical intimacy will be helpful, and so you've decided to declare that part of your relationship on hold. You will not initiate sex at all, and, you'd prefer she did not until she has truly -- somehow -- managed to get to a place where she feels comfortable with it, and want that connection with you.

If you did that, it would not be giving her a free pass. It would be forcing her to hold the implications of her disinterest in facing her and your issues. If you instead keep coming to her and longing for her and desiring her, she will sense it, and take comfort in that interest. My point is, she wants a contradiction -- and you've been making it possible for her to believe she has it and is entitled to it. 


Sorry if I'm rambling. Just some thoughts.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Why is it so important to throw such negativity in this? He is just at the beginning stage of actually dealing with this. I just feel like support should be based in reality but doesn't have to be doom and gloom. He's got 14 years of "contented discontent" to bring out into the open.


Because Anon...it's like I said...people who are not CSA survivors really don't get it. They just don't.

And I don't see how they can be expected to. Same way I will never understand what it would be like to be a survivor of a war zone during childhood, and the PTSD that must come with that. HOW could I ever really understand such a thing? Can't be done.

Until they read up about it, by their own desire to learn about it...they just don't know. And even after they read up on it, they still don't "know" but they can at least understand what triggers are and understand the work that needs to be done.

I can read about survivors of war zones, but will never experience the pain of it.

Maybe some people can "get it" by just knowing it and not being a CSA survivor themselves, but this is rare and I don't see how the average person who is not a CSA can be expected to really get it. Rotor is going to have to "get it"...but none of the other guys here whose wives are not CSA will get it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> Why is it so important to throw such negativity in this? He is just at the beginning stage of actually dealing with this. I just feel like support should be based in reality but doesn't have to be doom and gloom. He's got 14 years of "contented discontent" to bring out into the open.


Having some experience with this problem, what would you recommend for expectations and a timetable?

Were I in OPs place, I would think that the time for action was well and truly upon me. You've outlined some good suggestions on what he should do, now how should he gauge success? When and how would a reasonable person say that satisfactory progress is or is not being made? 

On what reality should his support be based?


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

tom67 said:


> Anon you just answered the question 14 years it's enough
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



Contented discontent, which I take to mean "resigning oneself too settling for less than you need", is what has to urgently end and never return.

Of course, leaving or not leaving is for him to decide. I suggest he make that decision one way or the other through a process facilitated by a competent individual therapist.

If it has been fourteen years of effectively enabling her neglect of him, enabling neglect of her CSA or other issues, and any mutual neglecting of additional marriage/partnership issues, then there is STILL an untapped opportunity. The opportunity is to do something different -- and create a situation where she has to take responsibility for making the changes she can and should make. If he can do that, without getting lost, then they have a chance.

If he gives that some time to happen, while in the meantime working on making himself healthier and happier, then IMHO that is a good use of his time and energy. If she does nothing, then he leaves relationship healthier than he is now, and feeling that he did everything he could do. But, she may in fact "get it" before he decides to walk away.

The challenge is to not start settling again, and so it helps to have a timeline in mind, and to make clear to the other that this is the plan. Get on board, or realize someday there will be divorce.

Explaining this is the plan with one's therapist can help -- as the therapist can help one resist the temptation to start settling again.


ETA: This is basically the approach I started on several months ago. (Again, no CSA here.) So, keep that in mind -- I want it to work for OP because I want it to work for me! But, I am starting to see my wife opening up to me, and becoming available to be present in our relationship, and to stop taking the easy where it's all my fault. It has been extremely fatiguing, but trend is upward. We are getting traction whereas for more than a decade we have just been spinning our wheels.

OP, you'll of course decided whether there are any actions besides walking away that are still worth trying. Don't sacrifice your sanity, or your happiness forever. Don't foolishly buy hope. But, be clear about what it is you have been doing that has not worked. And be clear about what different things are still left to be tried. Then decide.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

FaithfulWife, you're right, they identify strongly with the anger and pain of rejection. I'll back off.

Cletus, you raise a good point about a time line. But I couldn't answer that or even go beyond setting a time table for the beginning of opening herself. If Rotorhead follows the excellent advice from


PieceOfSky said:


> If it has been fourteen years of effectively enabling her neglect of him, enabling neglect of her CSA or other issues, and any mutual neglecting of additional marriage/partnership issues, then there is STILL an untapped opportunity. The opportunity is to do something different -- and create a situation where she has to take responsibility for making the changes she can and should make. If he can do that, without getting lost, then they have a chance.
> 
> If he gives that some time to happen, while in the meantime working on making himself healthier and happier, then IMHO that is a good use of his time and energy. If she does nothing, then he leaves relationship healthier than he is now, and feeling that he did everything he could do. But, she may in fact "get it" before he decides to walk away.
> 
> The challenge is to not start settling again, and so it helps to have a timeline in mind, and to make clear to the other that this is the plan. Get on board, or realize someday there will be divorce.


Then I should think he would see her buying into her own therapy within two months or so. 

But that's jumping the gun because the biggest hurdle of them all is for her to own her dysfunction and find it unacceptable. That's a tall order but it can be done and I think Piece of Sky's plan is golden for making that happen.

When one spouse comes out of denial and becomes healthy, the other spouse will have to respond. She'll either go completely underground or she'll see the light.

So let's say January for the eyes to open.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> So let's say January for the eyes to open.


I hope she's still with me in January. I feel like she's about to leave any minute. It's a bit better than last night, but not by much. Still not looking at me, still ignoring me, but when she does talk to me, it's a bit less depressed.

I'm seeing a psychologist tomorrow, hopefully she'll see me making the effort and it'll help make her a bit less anxious to be around me.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

She'll calm down soon. Give it a week. She's gonna wear herself out with the hyper vigilance, sink to a slight depression, then slowly work herself out of it. I'm sure you've seen the pattern a couple dozen times by now.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> She'll calm down soon. Give it a week. She's gonna wear herself out with the hyper vigilance, sink to a slight depression, then slowly work herself out of it. I'm sure you've seen the pattern a couple dozen times by now.


I'm hoping the "wearing herself out" happened this morning - I think she was asleep on my couch from about 8:45am to about 1pm. Being slightly depressed right now makes sense... I guess only time will tell if she works out of it.

She has talked about events this coming weekend with me being involved, and when she cleaned out the hall closet this morning, she did put my stuff back into it, so... at least there's some signs of her seeing me still here in her (short-term) future.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Then I should think he would see her buying into her own therapy within two months or so.


Here's what I remember from my life:


December 2012: Feeling like I can no longer take it, and accepting that it is hopeless. She is to angry towards something that is not even me. Resolving to get through the holidays, and then initiate the divorce process.

January/February 2013: Told her how painful the holidays were, and that I had decided it had to change, one way or the other. Was angrily told how much she hates me and laying in bed while we sleep she thinks of ways she could kill me. (Didn't feel like I was in danger, mostly. But, still, eye-opening.) Either in that conversation, or later, told her she had anger and hatred that I could do nothing to solve for her at this point. If I did everything "right" from now on, and apologized profusely for "everything" I did (uhm, or she claims I did), that would still not rid her of the anger. Only she could do that. And, so I was going to work on myself (in IC and elsewhere), and was determined to be happy. She could work on herself, and work with me in MC, or, eventually I was going to end our marriage.

April 2, 2013: Had my first IC appointment. (Gee, look at me, I procrastinate on this too. But I did it.)

It's hard to say when she finally agreed to go to MC with me. We have probably had less than a dozen appointments. She missed one, was twenty to thirty minutes late (as in forgot, and almost didn't show up), pouted about going and expressed dislike (as in, "It's not working." "We don't get anywhere." "We just go back and forth." "This is costing so much money." (We chose a therapist with a certain treatment approach and not in our insurance plan; but, fortunately, in the same office space as my IC therapist).

Only in the last 4 or 5 sessions did I feel like something was said to her by the therapist and heard by her, that she really really really needed to hear and had been unable to hear from me. Basically, that her treatment of me is hurtful and wrong, and she is responsible for stopping it. She has also gotten to own the fact her behavior has hurt me very much -- something she was prone to react to by blowing up at me ("Your just trying to blame me for everything or make me feel bad by telling me you went for a walk alone on our vacation so we wouldn't see your tears.")

The therapist has also gotten through to her when she is thinking that I'm a bad guy, and that I don't love her; the therapist successfully reminds her that there are many examples where I truly have shown my love for her. It's different when it comes to hearing it from the MC, than from me. It is a gift I have been needing in my life.

But, it's not all upward. There is this dance where she comes closer and starts to be vulnerable, and then puts up a wall. *I* am getting smarter about how to handle it as it happens, and keep the conversation focused on the real issue -- the one that she attempts to flee from awareness of -- and, if and when possible, let her hold it in her mind and feel the implications. The last time I did this she said she would find a psychologist to talk to. She only accepted that she could and that she needed to -- when I made a sincere declaration that the "romantic" part of our relationship was over for now, given how she feels towards me and I felt towards her. That I was officially NOT going to pursue her as a romantic partner, that we were just roommates and co-parents.


So, yes, it seems like it is taking forever. But there is traction. This IS different that the 15 years of our marriage, 13+ years with kids, 20 years together. And, I truly feel with conviction that there are better days ahead for me -- where I will have a fulfilling relationship, including sexual intimacy, and an honest mutual trusting connection -- and it is up to her whether or not she is going to be part of that. And, at times, she knows I feel that. At times, it becomes part of her reality. And, that seems to be making a difference.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

I know I shouldn't jump to any conclusions prior to speaking to the psychologist tomorrow, but in browsing around this forum, something jumped out at me. I wasn't sure what codependency was, so I looked it up, and holy cow, does it ring a LOT of bells! I read further into narcissism, and while it wasn't quite as obvious, there were still a lot of similarities to our situation.

To me, this just reinforces the need to pursue IC for myself to identify and break those codependent behaviors, assuming they're actually there, and to get her into MC to identify and address any narcissistic behaviors that might be there.

She just asked me if I'd made the appointment with the therapist - fortunately I had.

I'm having a hard time dealing with this tonight. I'm very tense, have a nasty headache, and would just KILL to be able to actually talk to her about things, rather than just sitting here feeling the tension in the air, waiting for her to acknowledge my existence. It might have to be a Xanax night :/


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Hang on to your thoughts for now. Their too new to share and she is not ready to hear. 

That's why posting here is an excellent compliment to therapy.

Damn, Piece of sky is nailing it with his posts in this thread!


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Hang on to your thoughts for now. Their too new to share and she is not ready to hear.


Oh, no doubt, there's no chance in hell I'd voice that suspicion to her. I'll wait for the psychologist to tell her.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

So... I just found out that she talked to my mother today.

While I feel that this is an invasion of my personal space, I also recognize that, given her f'd up family, my mother is actually the best option, since she was feeling she had no one to talk to.

My wife said that she wants to be with me, but still needs to feel safe from me, so my mother suggested being in the same room, possibly on the same bed, but with a physical barrier in between, such as a different set of blankets or a large husband pillow. My wife says she feels comfortable with this idea.

I'm torn between wanting to insist that she get help before I enter back into her personal space, and wanting to give us the closeness that we both want. I did state my concern about being accused of additional impropriety should I accidentally touch her during the night, and she said that's what the separate blankets and barrier would be for.

I want my wife to be happy. I want me to be happy. I'm worried that if I say no, it will push her away from me. I need her to be able to look at me, to be able to touch me, during the next few days after my upcoming surgery... but I also need us to heal over the long term.

From what my wife told me about her discussion with my mother, it's clear that both of them see me as being the one with the problem, and not my wife needing help as well. I'm glad my wife found someone she could talk to... I just hope it doesn't poison my relationship with my parents.


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## manticore (Sep 3, 2013)

Hi RH

sometime ago I found this article, it maybe will help your wife to understand you a little, and why you did what you did, or maybe she will think that you are just trying to convince her to have sex, anyway I will let the link here.

What Sex-Starved Husbands Tell Me | Intimacy in Marriage


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## 6301 (May 11, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> If she were showing signs of being willing to heal, that would be an easy question to answer.
> 
> But she's not. She agreed to go to MC as part of MY healing, not of hers. She's still refusing to admit that she has any problem of any kind - or rather, has any healing of her own to do.
> 
> I'll read those books, though... anything to be sure I've done all I can so I'm not leaving as the bad guy.


 I hope you don't take this wrong but IMO with the mindset she has, she had no business getting married until she had the proper professional help. How in Gods name could anyone have a normal marriage when one of the parties has such mental problems due to an incident in their past. Sooner or later something would trigger all of the insecurities that they have stored up in their mind and the other party will pay for a long time.

She refuses to talk to a MC because in her mind she doesn't have a problem and honestly, the more you try to help her with the problem, the more she's likely to try less. That's being proven right now. 

 She should have known that when you have sex with your partner your going to have to touch them in a sexual way and after 14 years with you, if she hasn't yet learned to trust you, then honestly, she lied through her teeth to you and never trusted you from the get go. 

Right now it seems that there will be nothing you can do to make her come to her senses and maybe throwing yourself under a speeding bus will be the only way to prove your love for her. Enough is enough dude. You have done everything you could to show her remorse and your love and it seems she wants more. Sooner or later friend, your tank will go empty, then what? God help those that help themselves and it seems that she would rather wallow around in this funk and make you pay for not only the guy who hurt her and for her to be perfectly content to play the victim card. 

Yes. she was hurt. Yes. It shouldn't have happened but if you have a broken leg and you keep re breaking it to make someone feel sorry for you than after a while what was once a vice is now a habit and it gets old.

I think it's time you tell her that we either both go to a MC and get it out in the open once in for all and deal with it or it's time to move on. You don't have to live like your some kind of low life that she's making you out to be. Big effin deal. You put her hand on your d!ck. It would be a whole other story if you came home and beat the hell out of her and raped her. Then she would have a real good excuse and no one would blame her but this has gotten out of hand and it's time to end this chapter in this book.


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## TikiKeen (Oct 14, 2013)

*headdesk*

Coming from a place of love is vital: you work on you, she works on her. She might refuse but you're stopping short of the goal of happiness if you give up before taking action that shows her you're serious about healing and that you support her healing. (I refuse to address the "it wasn't rape" apologetics any more. It was sexual abuse, not rape, and RD is taking action.)

I think you might find some comfort here.

Or here, in this piece written by a survivor, for partners.

This is a comprehensive list of symptoms many survivors have. This applies to both men and women.

This one is good (albeit a little too colorful, literally.) Follow the links on the left bar to navigate.

I urge all members to drop biases and read these. You know more survivors than you think you do, if statistics hold firm. This answers why confusion reigns supreme, why trust is fleeting and why survivors give mixed messages (RD's wife's recanting of liking sex and refusing to do things which once were okay with her are a good example.)


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Rotorhead77 said:


> So... I just found out that she talked to my mother today.
> 
> While I feel that this is an invasion of my personal space, I also recognize that, given her f'd up family, my mother is actually the best option, since she was feeling she had no one to talk to.
> 
> ...


:banghead:Rotor I'm glad you read the codependency.

I hope Conrad gets unbanned I will send him here.

Here please read a few of these
Life After Divorce

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/life-after-divorce/109202-no-holds-pbarred-27.html

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/63357-time-regroup-move-387.html

These all have big codependency.
Happy reading


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Thanks 6301
I think it's time you tell her that we either both go to a MC and get it out in the open once in for all and deal with it or it's time to move on. You don't have to live like your some kind of low life that she's making you out to be. Big effin deal. You put her hand on your d!ck. It would be a whole other story if you came home and beat the hell out of her and raped her. Then she would have a real good excuse and no one would blame her but this has gotten out of hand and it's time to end this chapter in this book.
:iagree:
:iagree:
:iagree:
Some things are that simple.
You can love her you don't have to be married to her.
Ugh if it's true with what your parents said, give them the whole story.


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

I'm just imagining this conversation between your wife and your mother about you putting her hand on your penis. 

Your suffering is never ending, Rotor. I'm glad you will at least have some narcotics (I hope) in the upcoming days to break up the emotional stress. A little Vicodin nap might help. 

Do you know who her abuser was and can you beat the **** out of him at least? He deserves it a lot more than you do.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

MissScarlett said:


> I'm just imagining this conversation between your wife and your mother about you putting her hand on your penis.
> 
> Your suffering is never ending, Rotor. I'm glad you will at least have some narcotics (I hope) in the upcoming days to break up the emotional stress. A little Vicodin nap might help.
> 
> Do you know who her abuser was and can you beat the **** out of him at least? He deserves it a lot more than you do.


Or xanax.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> So... I just found out that she talked to my mother today.
> 
> While I feel that this is an invasion of my personal space, I also recognize that, given her f'd up family, my mother is actually the best option, since she was feeling she had no one to talk to.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry, you must feel so ganged up on by the people who are supposed to love you! We know what that feels like and it sucks!

Don't go into a broken bedroom and pretend it's normal. Until she is out of trigger mode and feels safe and in control the slightest leg bump could send her flying from the bed.

Your upcoming surgery complicates things because you must be cared for and comfortable. But I presume you'll be drugged up and too weak or too in pain... BUT if her abuser was a trusted adult who drank or did drugs...

Regarding your mother... If you are codependent... How do you think you got to be that way? 9 outta 10 times your mother insisted you be her hero before you were developmentally ready. So her take on this isn't a clear head either. It must feel like you're being betrayed. There is also the distinct possibility you mother's only goal was to ensure you were being well looked after post op so she said whatever placating thing she needed to say so your wife would look after you.

She is your wife and you are having surgery, her place is to take care of you. Before you go in for surgery, she needs to be able to agree that the few days post op, you comfort and needs will have to take precedence over her need to feel safe. This actually might be a good logical jumping off point for her. For her to think that her need to feel safe in light of your weakened state, is perhaps too much to expect to be accommodated all the time.

Do you think your wife is a narcissist? Or is she so very needy and a strong need to control is mirrors narcissism? CSA do struggle with feeling OWED. What happened shouldn't have happened so we are owed some slack. While it helps to reach an active anger stage it sure as hell doesn't help us get along in the world when everyone owes us something!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

MissScarlett said:


> I'm just imagining this conversation between your wife and your mother about you putting her hand on your penis.
> 
> Your suffering is never ending, Rotor. I'm glad you will at least have some narcotics (I hope) in the upcoming days to break up the emotional stress. A little Vicodin nap might help.
> 
> Do you know who her abuser was and can you beat the **** out of him at least? He deserves it a lot more than you do.


Threadjack...
MissScarlett changed her avatar to the morning after the famous night...? Hmmmmm shall I check for updates?
End Threadjack...


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## MissScarlett (May 22, 2013)

LOL - Miss Scarlett continues to press onward - thanks for asking.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Do you think your wife is a narcissist? Or is she so very needy and a strong need to control is mirrors narcissism?


I'm not quite sure, and this is why I'd have to talk to the psychologist before jumping to any conclusions.

My wife reached out to me last night, and told me she forgives me. I'm not going to let this get in the way of the work that obviously needs to get done, but I'll take it. I think she, and I, should be in good shape for the surgery tomorrow, and hopefully for whatever follows later.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Your mom may have difficulty being objective, and discussions behind your back will be self-serving for anyone having them.

If you can make a stand here on the grounds of privacy invasion or unfairness of being convicted in absentia -- and demand you see MC together ASAP -- then I would do it.

I agree with tom67 that this talk with Mom gives you a right to tell your side of the story. Yet, one has to avoid further blows to one's image of being trustworthy. Maybe argue you feel like you need to defend yourself but do not want to violate your wife's trust in telling you her life's burdens, so you don't want to run to Mom and reveal more, but you HAVE to talk to someone WITH your wife, and all you can think of us a stranger of sorts -- MC.

What is your Mom like? Do you trust her objectivity, observance of other's boundaries, and stability?

FWIW, IMHO in many marriages the one recent event would not be taken as abuse. Does not change that she sees it that way, and I sympathize with what she is going through. The point, though, is how she sees it is NOT the whole picture, and it is unfair for all, including the kids, for anyone to pretend it is.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> What is your Mom like? Do you trust her objectivity, observance of other's boundaries, and stability?


My mom has many issues of her own, so don't think I've got an Oedipus complex or anything...

Of all the non-professional people in the world, I do think my mom is one of the best people my wife could have talked to. She will do all she can to empathize with your issues and be supportive, but she will still defend the ones she loves in as non-confrontational a way as possible.

I have no doubt my mom stood up for me as much as she could. That being said, I am looking forward to talking to her myself, and getting my side of the story out there.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

You say your wife has a disease that makes touching her, cause serious pain.. 
I am going to be the devils advocate here, but that seems like a pretty convenient claim giving she hates to engage in physical contact. 
Have you any proof, has the doctor any proof, or is this a diagnosis just based on her claim of pain. It would not be the first time that a physical issue is manufactured in the mind of a damaged person to meet the need for an excuse of their abnormal existence. 
I would highly suggest you let her know that until you can have a shared goal of a normal love life, there will be no negotiating the terms, body pillow barriers, or time spent pretending any longer.
Let her know her issues have affected you to the point you have doubts about her capacity to allow the things needed for you to feel loved by her.
Use therapy of course, but I would want proof of her medical issue, and proof is not her screaming in pain.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

nogutsnoglory said:


> that seems like a pretty convenient claim giving she hates to engage in physical contact.


She doesn't hate to engage in physical contact entirely, it's just that there are certain actions, like using her hands to touch my body, especially my penis, or performing oral sex, that she has issues doing. There are additional activities that she refuses to do, but she isn't using the pain excuse to get out of them. In fact, she exhibits a lot of stress and frustration over not being able to be touched.

While it's possible that she does use the pain excuse on certain days to get out of having to have sex, I have no doubt that her condition is real. There is direct physical evidence of a change in her blood chemistry related to the nervous system over the time period she's been having symptoms, and she responds to the treatment entirely too well for it to be an act.

Unfortunately the treatment is short term, wears off far too quickly, and has to be repeated too frequently, but for the week or so that it's effective, she's a lot more responsive and a lot more energetic and able to be touched.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> I'm not quite sure, and this is why I'd have to talk to the psychologist before jumping to any conclusions.
> 
> My wife reached out to me last night, and told me she forgives me. I'm not going to let this get in the way of the work that obviously needs to get done, but I'll take it. I think she, and I, should be in good shape for the surgery tomorrow, and hopefully for whatever follows later.


That's excellent! If she hated you or was otherwise repulsed by you, this would not have come from her mouth this soon. She does love you and there is a part of her that is trying to be understanding of your needs.

So today is both psychologist appointment and surgery? Well damn talk about being raw.

Good luck today with everything!


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> So today is both psychologist appointment and surgery? Well damn talk about being raw.


Tonight is the psych, tomorrow am is the surgery. Should be fun, but at least I know things are in a better place here at home.

Still not looking forward to talking to my mom, though :/


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

I'm sure you're too big to be turned over her knee. 

She will have your best interest at heart. Meaning you be happy by having a happy marriage.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

nogutsnoglory said:


> You say your wife has a disease that makes touching her, cause serious pain..
> I am going to be the devils advocate here, but that seems like a pretty convenient claim giving she hates to engage in physical contact.
> Have you any proof, has the doctor any proof, or is this a diagnosis just based on her claim of pain. It would not be the first time that a physical issue is manufactured in the mind of a damaged person to meet the need for an excuse of their abnormal existence.


I see the OP has addressed this possibility in a later post.

I would add that my understanding is there are these possibilities:

1) consciously or unconsciously lying to others and/or oneself about pain that does not exist
2) complaining about real pain from a condition that has its genesis in the purely physical
3) complaining about real pain from a condition that is psychosomatic -- i.e., "(of a physical illness or other condition) caused or aggravated by a mental factor such as internal conflict or stress."

To be clear, psychosomatic doesn't mean the condition or its symptoms are "fake" or "all in the head." Rather psychosomatic means the condition and symptoms are very real, and for some I suppose diagnostic tests could prove the reality.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Rotorhead77 said:


> I'm having a hard time dealing with this tonight. I'm very tense, have a nasty headache, and would just KILL to be able to actually talk to her about things, rather than just sitting here feeling the tension in the air, waiting for her to acknowledge my existence. It might have to be a Xanax night :/


Take care of yourself physically during all this. Surgery will make it difficult, but once you recover, look to exercise to deal with the stress. Hitting the gym, playing a sport, or even just taking a run or a walk will help. Of course, it will get you out of the house and away from some of the tension as well.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> To be clear, psychosomatic doesn't mean the condition or its symptoms are "fake" or "all in the head." Rather psychosomatic means the condition and symptoms are very real, and for some I suppose diagnostic tests could prove the reality.


I guess the only way to be sure would be to have her visit a psychologist herself, specifically to investigate that possibility... and given the difficulty I'm having in getting her to a therapist for the current issue, I don't see that happening any time soon.

I do have enough supporting evidence, not just diagnostic tests, to feel confident that it's a real condition, not psychosomatic.

Hell, it better be, after spending thousands to try to diagnose and treat it :/

Spoke to my mom today, and was reassured that she's not ganging up on me, that she recognizes that there are two sides to every story, she's not judging me, etc. She said she also recommended marriage counseling, and encountered strong resistance to the idea.

Even though my wife and I seem to have made a huge step towards recovery, I'm going to have to find the strength to insist that we go to MC, or we just won't have a happy future.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

Rotorhead77 said:


> Even though my wife and I seem to have made a huge step towards recovery, I'm going to have to find the strength to insist that we go to MC, or we just won't have a happy future.


Remember, this is a marathon, not a sprint. It will take time to work on you, time to get her to start working on her, time for her to work on her and time for you two to work on your marriage.

Find the balance between giving it time for different steps to occur and insisting that she do the work.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Resistance to MC is not a positive sign regardless of what is being said and done...

If she insists nothing is wrong with her then again that is not a positive sign either.

I know our opinions are colored by our own experiences and that is why I like my trusted chart, a streak of vague ....'s does not instill confidence.

Incidentally I would pass on the DMZ marital bed idea. Set up a spare bedroom for the duration as it is a good reminder of how the current situation is NOT permanent. 

Just out of curiosity, you mentioned children, are they affectionate physically with your wife? How does she handle hugs etc from them?


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Children are by nature, non threatening. A child you give birth to... Think momma bear and her cubs. Woa unto those that threaten their innocense!


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

john117 said:


> you mentioned children, are they affectionate physically with your wife? How does she handle hugs etc from them?


My wife is not very affectionate, physically or otherwise, but she does give hugs when she is able to. There are days when she can't, and everyone is disappointed those days, but she tries to make up for it when she can.

One of my daughters seems to wish for more affection, but the other is like my wife and is less affectionate anyway.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> My wife is not very affectionate, physically or otherwise, but she does give hugs when she is able to. *There are days when she can't, and everyone is disappointed those days, but she tries to make up for it when she can.*
> 
> One of my daughters seems to wish for more affection, but the other is like my wife and is less affectionate anyway.


This is not good. This is not good at all. Children's needs trump moms needs for safety and space, period. A child's sense of time cannot be made up for waiting for good days. Make sure you bring this up with the psychologist today. This is very important and needs to be explored more.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> This is not good. This is not good at all. Children's needs trump moms needs for safety and space, period. A child's sense of time cannot be made up for waiting for good days. Make sure you bring this up with the psychologist today. This is very important and needs to be explored more.


Sorry to hear that.
Get the kids some therapy before this worsens especially the one that is disassociating emotionally.
I wish the best for them.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

tom67 said:


> Sorry to hear that.
> Get the kids some therapy before this worsens especially the one that is disassociating emotionally.


That's a bit of a stretch diagnosis from a single line of text, dontcha think?


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> Children's needs trump moms needs for safety and space, period.


It's not about safety and space, it's about physical contact bringing pain.

She gives them verbal affection on these days, it's just the physical (hugs and kisses) that she can't do.

The less affectionate child has always been so, it's not a recent thing. From birth she would cry more if we picked her up than if we just left her alone.

My wife was distant as a child, too, even before the abuse, or so her mother says.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Cletus said:


> That's a bit of a stretch diagnosis from a single line of text, dontcha think?


It's just something to consider to show them lack of affection is not normal.
Would hate to see them dysfunctional as adults that's all.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> It's not about safety and space, it's about physical contact bringing pain.
> 
> She gives them verbal affection on these days, it's just the physical (hugs and kisses) that she can't do.
> 
> ...


It might be helpful going forward if you differentiated her behavior into suspected causes being her medical issue or her CSA. Sheeshe! You had me very concerned there!


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> It might be helpful going forward if you differentiated her behavior into suspected causes being her medical issue or her CSA. Sheeshe! You had me very concerned there!


Sorry, I'll try to do that. I definitely don't think she's depriving the kids of any affection due to her CSA. But then again, I could be wrong... keeps coming back to having to get her into MC.


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

I hope she's in therapy but I have to say this: Now that it's "taboo" for lack of a better term, your interest in her doing that will only skyrocket! So you better sit her down and have a nice long talk about it.

Just because it's become an issue does not mean you will suddenly stop wanting it, if anything now you'll want it even more.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

All the best with your surgery.

I'm curious what your wife's diagnoses is stemming from the vitamin deficiency. (Maybe you said already. None of my business, but if you are open to sharing the technical terms, that might help us see more of what you all are up against.). 

Sounds horrible for her, and each of you coping with that must be difficult. 

Glad to hear your mother handled things as you described. Not a conversation even at my age I would care to have with mine, despite knowing these days she is pretty level headed!

Will you be without TAM for a few days as you recover?


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> My wife is not very affectionate, physically or otherwise, but she does give hugs when she is able to. There are days when she can't, and everyone is disappointed those days, but she tries to make up for it when she can.
> 
> One of my daughters seems to wish for more affection, but the other is like my wife and is less affectionate anyway.


Well here is a good way to get her into counseling..

You said she told you that you knew from the beginning she was this way due to her abuse and you need to continue to accept it, and her general attitude is you not being able to deal with her the way she is is your fault and not yours...right?

well take the light off of you, the focus on the kids needs, and the sad fact that you have noticed a need for more affection and love from their mother and she is not able to give it on certain days. Start pressing her to get help from that perspective and make her realize that the way she is is hurting them as well as you. No one she loves is feeling the love in return the way they deserve and you are just one name on that list. If she wants to say you should have known and already accepted that, then fine let her think that for now, but the kids never signed up for this. They deserve better. She can't argue this.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

And a reminder for what's in store with a non emotionally connected spouse... My older daughter took 3 years worth of therapy (IC and FC) to come out ok. The young skipped her adolescence altogether. Thankfully they have an awesome relationship with me so... The young one is a bit too cold with everyone. Not bad, but not the giggly girl type.


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## learning to love myself (Apr 18, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> I think I might have a problem... and it has led me to make one of the biggest mistakes I've ever made, and I'm not sure what to do about it.
> 
> My wife and I have been married for 14 years. She has a history of being sexually abused, which has led to a lot of complications for our sex life - the chief complaints from my end being there's not enough of it, and what there is is extremely limited in scope: she doesn't touch me, no oral either way, no anal (my fetish), just me performing foreplay on her using my hands, then missionary and/or doggy style.
> 
> ...


I feel for you. I was molested as a child by my uncle along with his daughter. Then entered into a very sexual relationship at the age of 12 with my boyfriend and that lasted almost 10 years when I left him for my now husband of 23 years. 

I remember everything that happened to me from being molested & when being a 12yr old being tied up among other things. My older boyfriend had no idea how damaged I was, he was kinky and insisted on doing many things to me and being abused I naturally thought it was ok to allow this behavior. 

I was on the other end of the spectrum where I equated sex with love. No one knew I had been molested until one day that very uncle came up behind me at a family function and hugged my backside and from what im told by my husband, I stiffened up and reacted weird. I was then confronted with it and I now have spent 20 years trying to tell myself I was a child and it wasn’t my fault. It is a roller coaster ride to say the least. 

I have actually torn apart our very close large family as I had to break this news to my mother and ask her to please not invite him to family functions.

It’s a hard place to be as my cousin, his daughter says I need to confront him and move past it, like she has done, I can’t allow it. In fact it upsets me that she allows her young daughters to be around him. Anyway my point is I never once pushed my husband away from me and would ever suggested he raped me. 

The only person who should receive her anger is the man or men that did this, She needs to realize that she needs help and it’s up to her to fix her and you can be there for her and be supportive. Living a life and ignoring it won’t make it go away. I can say it became a crutch for me for a few years and everything bad that happened was because of this.

I know realize I need to work on me.


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

PieceOfSky said:


> All the best with your surgery.
> 
> Will you be without TAM for a few days as you recover?


Thanks. No, I'll be home after a few hours, so I'll be able to check in periodically, after my anesthesia wears off.



PieceOfSky said:


> I'm curious what your wife's diagnoses is stemming from the vitamin deficiency.


Don't think I ever actually said that it was a vitamin deficiency, but good guess - it's B-12, which can lead to permanent nerve damage if not discovered and treated in time. We diagnosed her about a year later than that magic point, so time will tell how much of her damage is permanent, and how much will recover. 

Her levels about 5 years ago were around 1200 pg/mL. 3 years later, they were 800 pg/mL. 1 year ago, they were under 200 pg/mL. The standard for adults differs in the US vs other countries - in the US, 200 pg/mL is considered the minimum, but in Europe and Japan 500 pg/mL is considered the minimum, so she had apparently been living with a deficiency for some time before we identified it as the problem.

Her initial symptoms were tingling and twitching in her fingers, which spread up her arm and into her torso. Currently she's still dealing with memory loss and significantly advanced tingling and excessive sensitivity.

A few months ago, I had reason to speak to a psychologist for work, and mentioned some of my wife's issues without mentioning the diagnosis - and she immediately identified it as B-12 deficiency, and proceeded to rattle off a list of other issues my wife has been facing without me telling her about them. This is one of the reasons I accept that the condition is valid - that it was so obvious to someone who has dealt with it before.

Daily update - we cuddled a bit this afternoon, after my first meeting with my new psychologist. She wanted to know what happened during the session - fortunately today was just a fact-finding session with no corrective advice given, so I could give her the general idea without worry, but I'm going to have to tell her in the future that if she wants to know what I said to the therapist and what advice she gave me, that she'll have to go herself.

The crisis is over, but we have a lot of work to do to get back a healthy relationship. Buckle your seatbelts, it's going to be a bumpy ride.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> Thanks. No, I'll be home after a few hours, so I'll be able to check in periodically, after my anesthesia wears off..


Cue in Hendrix "purple haze" -- oops wrong thread 

Best wishes for speedy recovery...


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

john117 said:


> Cue in Hendrix "purple haze" -- oops wrong thread
> 
> Best wishes for speedy recovery...


I prefer Pink Floyd - Comfortably Numb 

Thanks!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Two fabulous songs for self hypnostic anxiety reduction!

Rotor, your answer to your wife was perfect. If you say it with a smile that is welcoming, she may start to think therapy is safe.

Good luck tomorrow.

ETA, autocorrect changed hypnotic to hypnostic...funny!


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

And if your new psychologist is a good looker....lolz

Could you include your wife for a couple sessions down the road as part of your IC? They'll bill it as FC but who cares. If the psych is good and since she's female it may break the ice off the idea of IC or MC for her. Also your psych could observe your interaction with your wife and gain valuable insights that way. Keep it about you but ask the psych if there is a way to invite her into the game, once or twice at least.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

-duplicate-


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

john117 said:


> And if your new psychologist is a good looker....lolz


Yeah, that's gonna be a problem. A bit chubby, but very attractive. Just my type. :banghead:



john117 said:


> Could you include your wife for a couple sessions down the road as part of your IC? They'll bill it as FC but who cares. If the psych is good and since she's female it may break the ice off the idea of IC or MC for her. Also your psych could observe your interaction with your wife and gain valuable insights that way. Keep it about you but ask the psych if there is a way to invite her into the game, once or twice at least.


My health coverage actually covers both IC for each of us separately and joint MC, so it should be possible without too much trouble.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

TikiKeen said:


> Lemme see if I get this:
> She told you the first time, a while back, that forcing her to touch you when she's sleeping (and thus waking her up) triggers her, yet you did it again any way?
> 
> Is that it?
> ...


OK - he crossed a boundary discussed. But, he IS her husband. He does NOT need IC to uphold his boundaries of a marital union. For the majority, what he did, in a marriage, in their bed is totally normal. Many wives might even find it exciting. His wife has the issues, NOT him. Back off of him being the bad guy. He's not. In fact, his self restraint that seems to have been exhibited should be commended. He is doing A LOT in helping his W deal with her situtation. Except, perhaps, encouraging / insisting / on IC.


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## nogutsnoglory (Jan 17, 2013)

:iagree::iagree::iagree:


jayde said:


> OK - he crossed a boundary discussed. But, he IS her husband. He does NOT need IC to uphold his boundaries of a marital union. For the majority, what he did, in a marriage, in their bed is totally normal. Many wives might even find it exciting. His wife has the issues, NOT him. Back off of him being the bad guy. He's not. In fact, his self restraint that seems to have been exhibited should be commended. He is doing A LOT in helping his W deal with her situtation. Except, perhaps, encouraging / insisting / on IC.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Rotorhead77 said:


> Yeah, that's gonna be a problem. A bit chubby, but very attractive. Just my type. :banghead:.


FC is fun. There were times where I monopolized the discussions mostly arguing with the psych who tended to support my daughter more . Unfortunately she was my type also, early 50's, short dark hair... The works. 

We ended up dragging my wife into this and we did quite a few all-in-the-family FC sessions that should have been taped for training purposes. The psychologist did diagnose my wife as BPD after a while but did not treat BPD's. So something can come out of non MC or SC FC.

The same one also realized I was ADHD (duh). Same as my daughter (duh). 

The billing for FC was quite a bit higher than IC. To this day the times spent at the waiting room were beyond funny, stereotypes galore. Interesting times. My daughter did improve quite a bit in the process in terms of dealing with her mom.

Ironically the multi-year conflict between the two resulted in a stunning college admission essay that shocks me to this day every time I read it... 

Back to our thread


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

jayde said:


> He does NOT need IC to uphold his boundaries of a marital union.


He (probably) needs IC for a couple of other reasons.

In my own experience, more than a decade of having my emotional needs neglected (including sex-related ones) or looked down upon, and after being rejected (sexually and otherwise) so many times I now reject myself on her behalf, I realize it has all greatly affected me. I have been depressed. Very. And, though at some time in the distant path I could maintain an independent perspective on reality, I find it hard at times not to FEEL as if the sh!tty way she treats me is what I deserve. Ultimately, that effects how I relate to my wife, which feeds back into how she relates to me.

It's not that I cross her boundaries, it's that I don't effectively declare and enforce mine.

My hunch is he may be dealing with the same sort of fallout from those many many years. IC is helping me get healthier, psychologically. That in turn is forcing my wife to have to face more of her demons on her own. I'm hoping OP will see a similar change occur.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

PieceOfSky said:


> He (probably) needs IC for a couple of other reasons.
> 
> In my own experience, more than a decade of having my emotional needs neglected (including sex-related ones) or looked down upon, and after being rejected (sexually and otherwise) so many times I now reject myself on her behalf, I realize it has all greatly affected me. I have been depressed. Very. And, though at some time in the distant path I could maintain an independent perspective on reality, I find it hard at times not to FEEL as if the sh!tty way she treats me is what I deserve. Ultimately, that effects how I relate to my wife, which feeds back into how she relates to me.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The biggest threat is that eventually after rejections galore you check out emotionally and any sex that does happen has the depth of an ONS. 

That's not a way to build on a relationship.


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## jayde (Jun 17, 2011)

PieceOfSky said:


> He (probably) needs IC for a couple of other reasons.
> It's not that I cross her boundaries, it's that I don't effectively declare and enforce mine.
> 
> My hunch is he may be dealing with the same sort of fallout from those many many years. IC is helping me get healthier, psychologically. That in turn is forcing my wife to have to face more of her demons on her own. I'm hoping OP will see a similar change occur.


PoS . . . excellent point. Well said.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

john117 said:


> The biggest threat is that eventually after rejections galore you check out emotionally and any sex that does happen has the depth of an ONS.
> 
> That's not a way to build on a relationship.



Right! Hard not to do that, because rejection after rejection really hurts, and it's hard to feel like encountering the other at all after awhile.

Once one starts to check out emotionally, and once the physical intimacy slides to awkward, shallow, and never, then the one doing the rejection feels entirely justified.

It's a downward spiral, which I certainly wasn't equipped to notice and pull out of. (Working on it, with help here and else where ).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The irony for us is that the last few times have been fairly incredible quality and duration wise, but as the perceived quality increases so does the level of meaninglessness... Eventually I had an aha moment and stopped altogether. I think she has figured out as much and stopped also. 

Pointless. But hey, the tuition checks clear


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## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

learning to love myself said:


> It’s a hard place to be as my cousin, his daughter says I need to confront him and move past it, like she has done, I can’t allow it. In fact it upsets me that she allows her young daughters to be around him.


Are you 110% sure that he's not doing anything to those girls? If not, you should report him. 

Break the cycle.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I have only read the first three pages of this thread....so please forgive me if someone has already said this....

CSA - infact any SA - is a horrible and dreadful thing. I have never been a victim of it (fortunately) so cannot understand the true implications.

Marriage and what it entails is no secret. It involves both an emotional and physical connection. 
If a victim of CSA has been unable to come to terms with and deal with the abuse he/she suffered then I feel they should accept it and not get themselves into a situation that they are unable to deal with/cope with.

To simplify it greatly.....a person who is not very competent in water might go into the kiddies pool but wouldn't go scuba diving!

As with many posters on here...I also wish and hope the 'wife' realises she needs professional help and gets it...not just for herself but also for the sake of their marriage.

I can understand why the OP did what he did....he should have got out of bed, gone to the bathroom and 'sorted' himself out. 
Hndsight is a wonderful thing.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

askari said:


> I have only read the first three pages of this thread....so please forgive me if someone has already said this....
> 
> CSA - infact any SA - is a horrible and dreadful thing. I have never been a victim of it (fortunately) so cannot understand the true implications.
> 
> ...


First of all, did you know that you don't need to be able to swim in order to scuba dive? True.

Second, people get married All The Time who are not emotionally competent enough to sustain the relationship in a healthy way. Should a man marry if he is revolted by the thought of going down on his wife? Should a woman marry if she is an extreme introvert or has panic attacks crossing bridges? How about the man with a porn/masturbation habit so ingrained he barely ever has actual sex with his wife?

No one gets married thinking that their personal issues *might* need to be challenged and worked on. They get married believing their spouse to be the perfect fit for them, but after time, they both realize some changes need to be made... And yet, how many spouses are here seeking to find ways to fix their relationship because it has stopped being the "perfect fit?"

I am sick and tired of the accusations that a CSA survivor needs to wear a sign warning about the extent of the damage done to them! Perhaps Nathaniel Hawthorn needs to update The Scarlet Letter(s)


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The need to inform others is paramount because of CYA on both sides.

If the marriage works we are ok

If the marriage does not work due to no interest and partner cheats?

If the marriage does not work due to no interest and partner detaches?

If the marriage does not work due to no interest and partner goes bezerk?

And many other scenarios. One has to assess the likelihood of each outcome and determine what are the odds a particular case happens. With no intimacy case 1 is very unlikely, cases 2-4 more likely and none is better than the others. To go into marriage with unresolved issues and an unaware partner and expecting case 1 is your destiny requires serious magical thinking.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Anon Pink said:


> First of all, did you know that you don't need to be able to swim in order to scuba dive? True.


I can picture that in my mind, but realistically, you would never get the certification required for equipment rental, at least not in my state. Diving down to a depth of fifteen feet and donning the gear underwater, sharing the regulator with a buddy underwater, etc. require basic swimming skills. 




Anon Pink said:


> Second, people get married All The Time who are not emotionally competent enough to sustain the relationship in a healthy way. Should a man marry if he is revolted by the thought of going down on his wife? Should a woman marry if she is an extreme introvert or has panic attacks crossing bridges? How about the man with a porn/masturbation habit so ingrained he barely ever has actual sex with his wife?
> 
> No one gets married thinking that their personal issues *might* need to be challenged and worked on. They get married believing their spouse to be the perfect fit for them, but after time, they both realize some changes need to be made... And yet, how many spouses are here seeking to find ways to fix their relationship because it has stopped being the "perfect fit?"
> 
> I am sick and tired of the accusations that a CSA survivor needs to wear a sign warning about the extent of the damage done to them! Perhaps Nathaniel Hawthorn needs to update The Scarlet Letter(s)


I think your point is well made and I agree that CSA survivors should not be stigmatized. 

In your mind, is there a difference between a CSA survivor who recognizes whatever social impairment that may exist versus one who insists that it is the rest of the world who is marching out of step?


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

First off, a quick reply to the previous two (ok, two posts 4 posts back - funny that 2 people should reply as I was writing this!) posts: Everyone, regardless of history, should have the right to pursue what society might consider a normal life - marriage specifically included. They must, however, in my opinion, accept the responsibility of being willing to do the work needed to overcome that history in able to make that normal life a possibility. Just my opinion, and you know where that's coming from, in my case.

The surgery went well - lot of huge (~1-1.5cm) stones removed, clearly I went in not a moment too soon. Recovery isn't too bad - the meds make my brain too fuzzy, but they do their job in keeping the pain down. As for that, there's a sharp pain under my right ribcage, which hurts more when I move, but it's tolerable. 

My wife is being very supportive and loving, with no lingering traces of hostility or animosity from our previous week of difficulty. I think in her mind she knows she owes me this type of care, as I've babied her through several surgeries in the past, including gall bladder removal and a post-baby tummy tuck. 

I'm just glad that talking with my mother was sufficient for her to get herself back together. 

The real problem now is that I'm horny as hell, but the meds make it impossible to accomplish anything :banghead:


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

It is hard for me to imagine myself thinking that someone should avoid relationships because they are broken inside or have emotional or physical challenges.

At some point in my young adult life I decided that isolating myself kept me from growing. Relationships can be fertile soil for growth, even when rocky. 

I think all anyone owes the other is a genuine attempt to relate honestly with the other. Accuracy is not always possible because we are not omniscient creatures, and sometimes we fool/lie to ourselves.

The other has to guard against misrepresentation, and has to honestly evaluate whether the challenges one sees in the other are worth enduring in some matter. None of us are perfect, and I would hate for my partner to feel as if she had to be to be lovable or worth my time.

Even when there are challenges brought from one or both partners, it's quite possible to have the most wonderful and loving sort of relationship, both growing and learning as time marches silently along. Time marches regardless.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Pardon the crude analogy but I could say that since I can't afford car insurance I'll drive regardless because I need to go to work, and if I ruin someone else's day too bad???

How many years did it take me to figure out my wife comes from a family that for all intents and purposes has their own chapter in DSM-IV??

This isn't a teenage paranormal romance where the prince turns ware wolf at night...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> First of all, did you know that you don't need to be able to swim in order to scuba dive? True.


And not too bright, either.



> Second, people get married All The Time who are not emotionally competent enough to sustain the relationship in a healthy way. Should a man marry if he is revolted by the thought of going down on his wife? Should a woman marry if she is an extreme introvert or has panic attacks crossing bridges? How about the man with a porn/masturbation habit so ingrained he barely ever has actual sex with his wife?


Sure. As long as the issue is divulged ahead of time.



> I am sick and tired of the accusations that a CSA survivor needs to wear a sign warning about the extent of the damage done to them! Perhaps Nathaniel Hawthorn needs to update The Scarlet Letter(s)


Astronomy and other sciences study various forms of risk assessment to determine where time and money should be spent in trying to avoid catastrophe. High probability of risk combined with low harm are not too worrisome. Low probability of risk combined with great harm may not be worth worrying about if the risk is low enough.

Seems to me that CSA is one of those "bad" conditions with (at least a perceived) high probability of great marital harm. I think this is why people react the way that they do - the expectation is that if you marry a CSA survivor, odds are you're in for at least a little and quite possibly a lot of rough sledding. Now I like to be data driven, and I don't know if the perception is accurate, but if it is, the reaction from the public at large is plenty understandable. 

Look at the thread we're discussing now. Even among the sexually dissatisfied legions here, very few of us have to deal with accusations of rape from our spouse.


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

If I'm not to comfortable going down on a woman I won't even considering dating her seriously enough to warrant the remote thought of marriage. Especially since women have alot more going on down there......no offense just saying.

And if a guy is addicted to his hands then he needs therapy more than he needs a girlfriend...let alone a wife!!


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

aston said:


> If I'm not to comfortable going down on a woman I won't even considering dating her seriously enough to warrant the remote thought of marriage. Especially since women have alot more going on down there......no offense just saying.
> 
> And if a guy is addicted to his hands then he needs therapy more than he needs a girlfriend...let alone a wife!!


Uh... are you sure you're responding to the right thread?


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## aston (Oct 24, 2011)

Rotorhead77 said:


> Uh... are you sure you're responding to the right thread?


Oh snap! wrong thread


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

aston said:


> Oh snap! wrong thread


It happens heck it's friday


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

:rofl:

We need more threads!


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Anon Pink said:


> :rofl:
> 
> We need more threads!


 I did that once before post in the wrong thread.
OOPS


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## mr hillbilly (Jul 16, 2012)

Sadly I think we all know exactly which thread it was meant for


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## Rotorhead77 (Nov 7, 2013)

Time for a long-overdue update. 

It's been a strange couple of weeks. I've been going to IC every week, which hasn't really led to any results yet - the therapist is still trying to figure out everything that's been going on and what I'm trying to get out of it, I think. One thing she has suggested - big shocker here - is MC, but no progress yet on getting my wife to go.

We had a huge blow-up last weekend that took a few days to get over - not entirely my fault, but not entirely not my fault either. Bottom line from my perspective is that she was trying to take control of a situation that wasn't hers to control, and I didn't let her. I ended up apologizing even though I didn't think I should have had to, she ended up blaming it on me being sensitive due to the therapy, and all went back to normal. I did point out that the behavior of mine that had upset her was very similar to - but much tamer than - the way she has treated me multiple times in the past, and that we should both try to be nicer to each other in the future.

Then last night... wow. So, she's on her period, but we're both worked up, but it's really f'ing cold... so she's got one leg out of her pajamas but under the covers, the other leg out of the covers but still in pajamas, the rest of her completely covered by blankets, and I'm sitting on the edge of the bed, playing with her clit and jerking off (yes, this is all with her permission, consent, agreement, etc). Next thing I know, she reaches over and grabs my ****! She complained a bit about the precum mess, but held on... we both kept going and ended up cumming at the same time. What a strange event, but definitely the type of thing I've been wanting from her for quite some time! Who knows if it'll ever happen again, but WOW was it good!

Here's to hoping things continue to look up!


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

That's great! Holy cow that is huge! Mutual masturbation takes a lot of trust. Great update! I'm glad you posted again, I was wondering how you were doing.


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