# Friends and boundaries



## SkyIsBlue

I'm not really sure what I'm looking for by posting this, but I feel like I need to do something and I don't know what it is.

I don't have time to give a ton of backstory, so I'll start with my feeling of urgency. I believe my wife is going to try to meet up today with a male friend of hers without telling me, and it's making me very anxious.

Up until the past week or so, she has been very, very open about her communications with this person. They used to work in the same building but have moved from acquaintances to friends since he quit (several months ago). They haven't seen each other since then so their communication since has all been by Facebook, text, or telephone.

I believe I've seen all of it (except for today), and there hasn't been anything I should really be suspicious of. They don't really flirt and she never shares any feelings or details about our marriage. The main things they talk about are music and his former relationship (I think she genuinely worries that he's depressed). He seems pretty apathetic towards meeting with her, but he's generally an odd guy and hard to read.

She even told me that last week they'd talked about meeting up because he misinterpreted something she said as an invitation to get together. I have told her in the past that I don't want her to meet him without my knowing ahead of time (she assured me that would never happen). I also told her this weekend that I'd like to meet the guy first--she teased me about being a "dad."

So why am I suspicious? Because something about this guy seems to interest her more than her other friends. They seem to have some weird chemistry. She doesn't text him that much, but it's more than anyone besides me. She's more active with him on Facebook than with her other friends (as far as comments, posts, and occasional messages), though it's not a lot.

I don't mind if she has interesting and engaging friends. It's just that this friend in particular has her more engaged than I'm comfortable with, even though I've seen no evidence of anything inappropriate...really ever. 

So I'm not sure what to do. I feel like I've set my boundaries, but if she does it anyway...what then? I guess I'm questioning whether my boundaries are reasonable, or if I'm just overreacting to the chemistry.

Have any of you been suspicious about a friend of your spouse despite no evidence of a problem? How did it turn out?


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## Kaykris

Awww, you're jealous! Thats awesome and so nice to hear. It's totally normal for you to be acting like this, I would! 

I think you should straight up ask her and tell her exactly what you're feeling. If she is sneaking around, she'll become defensive and angry. If she's not, she'll be sympathetic and assure you or even stop seeing the guy.


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## CandieGirl

SkyIsBlue said:


> I'm not really sure what I'm looking for by posting this, but I feel like I need to do something and I don't know what it is.
> 
> I don't have time to give a ton of backstory, so I'll start with my feeling of urgency. I believe my wife is going to try to meet up today with a male friend of hers without telling me, and it's making me very anxious.
> 
> Up until the past week or so, she has been very, very open about her communications with this person. They used to work in the same building but have moved from acquaintances to friends since he quit (several months ago). They haven't seen each other since then so their communication since has all been by Facebook, text, or telephone.
> 
> I believe I've seen all of it (except for today), and there hasn't been anything I should really be suspicious of. They don't really flirt and she never shares any feelings or details about our marriage. The main things they talk about are music and his former relationship (I think she genuinely worries that he's depressed). He seems pretty apathetic towards meeting with her, but he's generally an odd guy and hard to read.
> 
> She even told me that last week they'd talked about meeting up because he misinterpreted something she said as an invitation to get together. I have told her in the past that I don't want her to meet him without my knowing ahead of time (she assured me that would never happen). I also told her this weekend that I'd like to meet the guy first--she teased me about being a "dad."
> 
> So why am I suspicious? Because something about this guy seems to interest her more than her other friends. They seem to have some weird chemistry. She doesn't text him that much, but it's more than anyone besides me. She's more active with him on Facebook than with her other friends (as far as comments, posts, and occasional messages), though it's not a lot.
> 
> I don't mind if she has interesting and engaging friends. It's just that this friend in particular has her more engaged than I'm comfortable with, even though I've seen no evidence of anything inappropriate...really ever.
> 
> So I'm not sure what to do. I feel like I've set my boundaries, but if she does it anyway...what then? I guess I'm questioning whether my boundaries are reasonable, or if I'm just overreacting to the chemistry.
> 
> Have any of you been suspicious about a friend of your spouse despite no evidence of a problem? How did it turn out?


Sorry, but I don't see any evidence of your setting any boundaries at all, here, other than telling her you don't like it. Boundaries have to be a lot firmer than just saying you're uncomfortable with something. Be CLEAR. Even then, be prepared for her not to 'get it'...trust me. I know!

See my thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/42715-i-thought-she-my-friend.html

Your wife sounds a bit like my husband.


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## Mistys dad

What does the Bull do when one of the other males moves in?

He lowers his head and charges.

If your wife is meeting someone, and you are uncomfortable, stop it immediately. Call her and tell her to come home or go where they are meeting and break it up. Don't try and sugar coat it, don't worry about hurt feelings, don't worry about making a scene. Stand your ground or get chased off.

Or you can wait and then post in the infidelity section next.


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## Browncoat

I'm not worried about my wife cheating... ever. In my case I go out of my way to not even raise doubt in my wife's mind that anything I do would lead to an affair. I don't want her spending even a moment worrying if I'm being unfaithful.

I think that's a good policy for all married folks... but that's just me.

So if she's doing something that causes you concern, talk to her about it.


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## SkyIsBlue

Mistys dad said:


> What does the Bull do when one of the other males moves in?
> 
> He lowers his head and charges.
> 
> If your wife is meeting someone, and you are uncomfortable, stop it immediately. Call her and tell her to come home or go where they are meeting and break it up. Don't try and sugar coat it, don't worry about hurt feelings, don't worry about making a scene. Stand your ground or get chased off.


Based on a gut feeling? I guess I'd feel a lot better doing that if I had something more than pure jealousy to go on. I have told her how I feel about this guy, and again she's been very open up to this point. (More practically I have no idea if or where they're going to meet. Just a hunch because she sent him a text this morning and has some free time this week.)

I guess that begs my original question (which maybe I didn't ask clearly): how do you know if your boundaries are appropriate?



Candiegirl said:


> Sorry, but I don't see any evidence of your setting any boundaries at all, here, other than telling her you don't like it. Boundaries have to be a lot firmer than just saying you're uncomfortable with something. Be CLEAR. Even then, be prepared for her not to 'get it'...trust me. I know!


I'm not sure how to be more firm than to say, "I don't want you to meet with this person without telling me first." Are you just saying I should throw consequences in there as well (like emb suggested above)? I guess the other thing about meeting the guy was more vague, but that's exactly because I wasn't sure if it was appropriate.

The problem is that I know for sure that _I_ could go have coffee with a female friend alone. Without evidence to the contrary, I should be able to trust my wife that far as well. It's just that her relationship with this particular guy makes me nervous...


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## Mistys dad

Yep, trust your gut, it is telling you something and is very seldom wrong. Better to be embarrassed by overreacting, than cuckolded for not reacting.


_I'm not sure how to be more firm than to say, "I don't want you to meet with this person without telling me first."_ 

Try this: *"I don't want you to meet with this person."*

"If you do, I will feel that it is a violation of the trust we have in each other, as well as an innappropriate action within our marriage." "Should you decide to go forward, against my wishes, I will treat our marriage going forward as broken"

You don't let other foxes in your hen house, ever.


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## sandc

I don't meet with female friends without my wife and in fact I have few female friends. Most men and women cannot be friends without experiencing sexual tension. I said most. Tell her to come clean and mean it.


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## Halien

I'm not criticising, but I notice frequently on this site that men will frame their boundary discussions with their wife as though it were a diplomatic discussion between two sovereign nations. You fear being accused of going beyond some practical guildelines you've established, with rules that would fit equally well with a partner in business. Rule # 1 - don't talk to the competitor without my approval. Rule # 2 - anything else you do is none of my business.

Let me ask you this. If your wife suspected that you were secretly setting up a date (not romantic) with another woman, after there was a misunderstanding where that woman might have thought you were signalling your willingness to take things to the next level, would she really worry about coming across as controlling? If she had already been direct about not being comfortable with your relationship with this woman, and she now suspected more, would she really be afraid of not respecting your right to see who you wanted to see?

For most people, when we marry, we recognize that this committment symbolizes so much more than just two people who share a home. It is a deliberate committment to foster support and love for each other, and a deliberate committment to realease certain rights to intimate relationships with others. Many women will expect her husband to be passionate about certain things that distinguish him from her lady friends. He will be her passionate protector. He can be jealous of anything that tries to take her away from that marriage goal. 

I feel like you've allowed yourself to feel cornered into a position of weakness. The moment my wife utters a sarcastic comment about me trying to be her dad, personally, I would remind her that we don't have the luxury of being both committed to marriage and committed to living independently of each other's feelings. Sorry, but that is the way marriage is. A mature man will not pull out the jealousy card without genuine feelings of concern. She can either choose to stand for the marriage and help you allay those concerns, or take a stand for her independence. In my opinion, a mature man will also not feel like he has to resort to common rules of diplomacy when it comes to his role as a man in the marriage. I say this because it has been my observation that many women are very comfortable in their role as a mature woman, and could care less about diplomacy if another woman is moving in on her husband.

Keep in mind that if this other man did received what he thought to be mixed signals from your wife, he is not going to approach her from a position of insecurity. Your wife will see one man who is approaching her with confidence, with no regard for your marriage, and another man who is fearful of being passionate about what their marriage means.

Simply put, based on what you have said before, I would say that you have every right to tell her that, given the miscommunication between them, if she seeks out any contact with him alone, she'll be letting you know how she views the marriage in contrast to what it used to stand for. In the nature of our careers, my wife and I both have casual friendships of the opposite sex, but there is 100% transparency and respect for the other's feelings when one of us has doubts.


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## SkyIsBlue

Halien, that was a really thoughtful and insightful post. Thank you.

I should clarify a couple things, though. First, I've seen no indication that this man has a romantic interest in my wife. I'm not naive enough to think it wouldn't develop, or that he would take advantage of an opportunity if she presented it. But doesn't seem to be pursuing her in this way at all--and I'm very, very sensitive to that at this point.

Second, this misunderstanding wasn't quite like what you've described. He didn't misinterpret her as wanting to take things to the next level--he just thought she was suggesting that they meet in person. In fact, since they brought it up, he's been pretty offish and very noncommittal about actually meeting. 

They didn't actually meet up yesterday, and as far as I know haven't communicated since then. I'm still going to look for an opportunity to talk to my wife about this, and do it in a stronger way. 

It's tough trying to balance the alpha, strong husband role with my desire to respect and trust her. Expressing "concern" or "worry" seems kind of weak when you have no evidence of anything improper.


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## Halien

SkyIsBlue said:


> Halien, that was a really thoughtful and insightful post. Thank you.
> 
> I should clarify a couple things, though. First, I've seen no indication that this man has a romantic interest in my wife. I'm not naive enough to think it wouldn't develop, or that he would take advantage of an opportunity if she presented it. But doesn't seem to be pursuing her in this way at all--and I'm very, very sensitive to that at this point.
> 
> Second, this misunderstanding wasn't quite like what you've described. He didn't misinterpret her as wanting to take things to the next level--he just thought she was suggesting that they meet in person. In fact, since they brought it up, he's been pretty offish and very noncommittal about actually meeting.
> 
> They didn't actually meet up yesterday, and as far as I know haven't communicated since then. I'm still going to look for an opportunity to talk to my wife about this, and do it in a stronger way.
> 
> It's tough trying to balance the alpha, strong husband role with my desire to respect and trust her. Expressing "concern" or "worry" seems kind of weak when you have no evidence of anything improper.


Sorry for the misunderstanding. Too often, I think we as men approach boundary issues in a way that makes our wife think its an "my way versus her way" issue. In that light, it would seem too alpha, and not caring enough about her ability to make decisions if you frame it that way. I think both parthers have to frame it instead as a discussion of actions/motives that support our shared vision for the marriage versus those actions/motives that do not. Within this mindset, I don't think we should apologize for responding directly. My wife and I learned to frame our boundary discussions around this verbage. For example, does the way she handles this relationship with him support our hopes and goals for the marriage? Does it hurt it? It comes a little more natural, possibly, because part of my upbringing, and our marriage itself was based on a native american concept that the marriage is a living, combined spirit.


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## CandieGirl

SkyIsBlue said:


> Based on a gut feeling? I guess I'd feel a lot better doing that if I had something more than pure jealousy to go on. I have told her how I feel about this guy, and again she's been very open up to this point. (More practically I have no idea if or where they're going to meet. Just a hunch because she sent him a text this morning and has some free time this week.)
> 
> I guess that begs my original question (which maybe I didn't ask clearly): how do you know if your boundaries are appropriate?
> 
> *I'm not sure how to be more firm than to say, "I don't want you to meet with this person without telling me first." Are you just saying I should throw consequences in there as well (like emb suggested above)? I guess the other thing about meeting the guy was more vague, but that's exactly because I wasn't sure if it was appropriate.
> 
> The problem is that I know for sure that I could go have coffee with a female friend alone. Without evidence to the contrary, I should be able to trust my wife that far as well. It's just that her relationship with this particular guy makes me nervous...*




Well, that's just it...it can't be just about 'this guy', it has to be about every guy. And it really should go both ways. IE, even though you THINK you can go for coffee with a woman; you shouldn't. Otherwise your wife will use it as ammunition against you.

I've been thinking a lot about boundaries because of things going on in my own marriage. It was suggested to me that I actually write them down and show my husband, because he is having a bit of difficulty recognizing what is and what is not OK with respect to boundaries. At first, I thought it would be too much like a set of rules. But the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. Unless we, as a couple define what we're unwilling to accept, the boundaries will be useless.


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## CandieGirl

Oh, and OP - your wife telling you first is ineffective; she shouldn't be partaking in outings with any members of the opposite sex. Enforce that.

And yes, there should be consequences of some sort; you have to decide what those are for yourself. That's the part I'm having issue with myself...


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## SkyIsBlue

CandieGirl said:


> Oh, and OP - your wife telling you first is ineffective; she shouldn't be partaking in outings with any members of the opposite sex.


But I don't believe that's true. I'm not one who thinks any friendship with the opposite sex is a problem--it is all situational. Close friendships can lead to trouble, sure, but that's not what this is at all. Not yet, anyway.

Maybe that's the whole problem--I'm trying to find a boundary that only applies to one person.



CandieGirl said:


> Unless we, as a couple define what we're unwilling to accept, the boundaries will be useless.


This, along with the consequences part, are right on. Most of the discussion of boundaries has been in a specific context, and we've never really established anything formal. Maybe that's the simple discussion we need to have: "what are you OK with, what am I OK with, and what is unacceptable?"


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## CandieGirl

SkyIsBlue said:


> *But I don't believe that's true. I'm not one who thinks any friendship with the opposite sex is a problem--it is all situational. Close friendships can lead to trouble, sure, but that's not what this is at all. Not yet, anyway.
> 
> *Maybe that's the whole problem--I'm trying to find a boundary that only applies to one person.
> 
> This, along with the consequences part, are right on. Most of the discussion of boundaries has been in a specific context, and we've never really established anything formal. Maybe that's the simple discussion we need to have: "what are you OK with, what am I OK with, and what is unacceptable?"


I understand what you're saying; but if this is 'allowed' (for lack of a better word!), what if some other guy comes along who actually is interested? Then, you'll get "Well, you didn't have a problem with it when it was so and so...". That's what I'd worry about.

For us, I don't want H to have any female friends that are not friends of OURS. And even that has come back to bite me in the ass. Simpler just to kibosh any type of friendship with OpSex, natural exceptions such as business or couple friends excluded IN MOST CASES.

But that's just me. I'm really not very trusting, and usually (unfortunately) with good reason.


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## Gabriel

SkyIsBlue said:


> But I don't believe that's true. I'm not one who thinks any friendship with the opposite sex is a problem--it is all situational. Close friendships can lead to trouble, sure, but that's not what this is at all. Not yet, anyway.
> 
> Maybe that's the whole problem--I'm trying to find a boundary that only applies to one person.
> 
> This, along with the consequences part, are right on. Most of the discussion of boundaries has been in a specific context, and we've never really established anything formal. Maybe that's the simple discussion we need to have: "what are you OK with, what am I OK with, and what is unacceptable?"



You are asking for trouble, OP. Take it from a guy that was "cool" with his wife's relationship with her old platonic friend. For years and years nothing was going on between them, but eventually, my wife became disenchanted with our marriage and guess who she confided in and fell in love with? 

Opposite-sex friendships end badly waaaaay too often - they are best to be avoided entirely, unless it's a couple-to-couple situation where everyone is friends with each other.


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## Gabriel

You may read my last post and think, "no, you don't understand, this is different". Yeah, that's what I thought too. And many others on this board. End this now before it gets out of hand. It sounds like it is heading the wrong direction. You are already on here feeling icky about it, asking questions. That should tell you something right there.


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## Entropy3000

SkyIsBlue said:


> I'm not really sure what I'm looking for by posting this, but I feel like I need to do something and I don't know what it is.
> 
> I don't have time to give a ton of backstory, so I'll start with my feeling of urgency. I believe my wife is going to try to meet up today with a male friend of hers without telling me, and it's making me very anxious.
> 
> Up until the past week or so, she has been very, very open about her communications with this person. They used to work in the same building but have moved from acquaintances to friends since he quit (several months ago). They haven't seen each other since then so their communication since has all been by Facebook, text, or telephone.
> 
> I believe I've seen all of it (except for today), and there hasn't been anything I should really be suspicious of. They don't really flirt and she never shares any feelings or details about our marriage. The main things they talk about are music and his former relationship (I think she genuinely worries that he's depressed). He seems pretty apathetic towards meeting with her, but he's generally an odd guy and hard to read.
> 
> She even told me that last week they'd talked about meeting up because he misinterpreted something she said as an invitation to get together. I have told her in the past that I don't want her to meet him without my knowing ahead of time (she assured me that would never happen). I also told her this weekend that I'd like to meet the guy first--she teased me about being a "dad."
> 
> So why am I suspicious? Because something about this guy seems to interest her more than her other friends. They seem to have some weird chemistry. She doesn't text him that much, but it's more than anyone besides me. She's more active with him on Facebook than with her other friends (as far as comments, posts, and occasional messages), though it's not a lot.
> 
> I don't mind if she has interesting and engaging friends. It's just that this friend in particular has her more engaged than I'm comfortable with, even though I've seen no evidence of anything inappropriate...really ever.
> 
> So I'm not sure what to do. I feel like I've set my boundaries, but if she does it anyway...what then? I guess I'm questioning whether my boundaries are reasonable, or if I'm just overreacting to the chemistry.
> 
> Have any of you been suspicious about a friend of your spouse despite no evidence of a problem? How did it turn out?


Actually I have no idea why she would be meeting up with another man at all. 

So is this a date or something? 

I mean you said you did not want her meeting him without you knowing about it. I am wondering why you did not say you did not want her meeting with him without you there.

Her calling you a dad is a tad juvenile and worrisome. Young women who see their husbandsas a father figure trying to control them and who they date is a different thing from a husbands role. Teenagers rebell against parents by sneaking around. Not a good thing for married folks to do.


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## Entropy3000

SkyIsBlue said:


> Based on a gut feeling? I guess I'd feel a lot better doing that if I had something more than pure jealousy to go on. I have told her how I feel about this guy, and again she's been very open up to this point. (More practically I have no idea if or where they're going to meet. Just a hunch because she sent him a text this morning and has some free time this week.)
> 
> I guess that begs my original question (which maybe I didn't ask clearly): how do you know if your boundaries are appropriate?
> 
> I'm not sure how to be more firm than to say, "I don't want you to meet with this person without telling me first." Are you just saying I should throw consequences in there as well (like emb suggested above)? I guess the other thing about meeting the guy was more vague, but that's exactly because I wasn't sure if it was appropriate.
> 
> The problem is that I know for sure that _I_ could go have coffee with a female friend alone. Without evidence to the contrary, I should be able to trust my wife that far as well. It's just that her relationship with this particular guy makes me nervous...


Gut feelings like jealousy are a natural survival mechanism. It is intuitive. You sense something is wrong. Do not fight that. You should listen to those feeelings. 

You guys should do His Needs Her Needs together and do the boundary setting. You guys don't seem to have any. 

So you are fighting being a nice guy and do not want to be called jealous, controlling ot insecure. Get over that and just be a man about it. Seriously. You don't play these kind of games with a marriage. YMMV.


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## Entropy3000

SkyIsBlue said:


> Halien, that was a really thoughtful and insightful post. Thank you.
> 
> I should clarify a couple things, though. First, I've seen no indication that this man has a romantic interest in my wife. I'm not naive enough to think it wouldn't develop, or that he would take advantage of an opportunity if she presented it. But doesn't seem to be pursuing her in this way at all--and I'm very, very sensitive to that at this point.
> 
> Second, this misunderstanding wasn't quite like what you've described. He didn't misinterpret her as wanting to take things to the next level--he just thought she was suggesting that they meet in person. In fact, since they brought it up, he's been pretty offish and very noncommittal about actually meeting.
> 
> They didn't actually meet up yesterday, and as far as I know haven't communicated since then. I'm still going to look for an opportunity to talk to my wife about this, and do it in a stronger way.
> 
> It's tough trying to balance the alpha, strong husband role with my desire to respect and trust her. Expressing "concern" or "worry" seems kind of weak when you have no evidence of anything improper.


He has a penis. He is interested in your wife. You have a gut feeling your wife is going to go behind your back and see him.

What is not clear about this? As Halien points out he is not being so Beta with your wife.


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## Entropy3000

SkyIsBlue said:


> Halien, that was a really thoughtful and insightful post. Thank you.
> 
> I should clarify a couple things, though. First, I've seen no indication that this man has a romantic interest in my wife. I'm not naive enough to think it wouldn't develop, or that he would take advantage of an opportunity if she presented it. But doesn't seem to be pursuing her in this way at all--and I'm very, very sensitive to that at this point.
> 
> Second, this misunderstanding wasn't quite like what you've described. He didn't misinterpret her as wanting to take things to the next level--he just thought she was suggesting that they meet in person. In fact, since they brought it up, he's been pretty offish and very noncommittal about actually meeting.
> 
> They didn't actually meet up yesterday, and as far as I know haven't communicated since then. I'm still going to look for an opportunity to talk to my wife about this, and do it in a stronger way.
> 
> It's tough trying to balance the alpha, strong husband role with my desire to respect and trust her. Expressing "concern" or "worry" seems kind of weak when you have no evidence of anything improper.


He has a penis. He is interested in your wife. You have a gut feeling your wife is going to go behind your back and she him.

What is not clear about this? As Halien points out he is not being so Beta with your wife.

A weak man worries about looking controlling. A strong man takes care of business. Which one are you?

Oh and BTW, I was bullet proof. Just like you. No way a friendship could become a problem for me for every reason in the book.

Fast forward, I ended up quiting my job to go NC rom the EA I had allowed myself to get caught up in. It took me almost six weeks to go through withdrawal. It was a major job where I was incharge of an orgainzation AND the chief technologist. My point is that my marriage was more important to me than that job. I had very poor boundaries. You will struggle on and on with this until you work this out with your wife. Don't wait to work this out with your next wife.


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## SkyIsBlue

My initial gut feeling proved false. My wife did not go behind my back at all, but they did end up meeting. The other guy actually invited us both but there was no way I could make it.

I told her that I did not want her meeting him again unless I was with her. Plain and simple. At first, she just agreed and was understanding of my feelings on it. After more discussion this weekend, her tune has changed somewhat. 

Now she says, finding a time where we can both meet him is completely impractical, bordering on ridiculous. Plus she doesn't want to have to tell him she can't meet unless I'm there. It makes our marriage seem immature and makes me look like a control freak. She actually started to get defensive about it and suggested that she would consider my opinion but would probably still meet with him if he asked.

I told her that if she did that, she would be completely disrespecting me and I would know where I stand. After a few minutes of pondering that point and reiterating that "there is nothing to worry about," she told me that should wouldn't disrespect me.

So now we're left with a bit of a rift. She's unhappy because I don't trust her and I'm coming off as controlling. I'm happy that I stood my ground, but wondering if I caused more damage than if I'd just let it go.


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## CandieGirl

SkyIsBlue said:


> My initial gut feeling proved false. My wife did not go behind my back at all, but they did end up meeting. The other guy actually invited us both but there was no way I could make it.
> 
> I told her that I did not want her meeting him again unless I was with her. Plain and simple. At first, she just agreed and was understanding of my feelings on it. After more discussion this weekend, her tune has changed somewhat.
> 
> Now she says, finding a time where we can both meet him is completely impractical, bordering on ridiculous. Plus she doesn't want to have to tell him she can't meet unless I'm there. It makes our marriage seem immature and makes me look like a control freak. She actually started to get defensive about it and suggested that she would consider my opinion but would probably still meet with him if he asked.
> 
> I told her that if she did that, she would be completely disrespecting me and I would know where I stand. After a few minutes of pondering that point and reiterating that "there is nothing to worry about," she told me that should wouldn't disrespect me.
> 
> So now we're left with a bit of a rift. She's unhappy because I don't trust her and I'm coming off as controlling. I'm happy that I stood my ground, but wondering if I caused more damage than if I'd just let it go.


Sky,

I'm in a similar position; however, if my husband dares meet this woman friend of his, I'll be walking out the door or leaving his bags outside of it.

He feels the way your wife does, how could he tell the friend that he can't see her anymore? It's simple. Married men do not meet single women for dinner, and neither to married women meet single men for dinner.

She is willing to consider your opinion and meet with him anyway? That smacks of disrespect and resentment on her part, and complete lack of regard for you and your marriage. You may want to point out to her that you protecting your marriage against another man is actually more like insurance, and is not necessarily 'controlling'. WTF???


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## sandc

Good for you Sky! There may be a small rift but you still have her respect. If she demonstrates that she does not in fact respect you, put your foot down twice as hard as you did this time. Be loving but be FIRM.


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## Jeff/BC

SkyIsBlue said:


> Have any of you been suspicious about a friend of your spouse despite no evidence of a problem? How did it turn out?


Nope, I've never been jealous. But that really changes nothing. It doesn't matter whether you have evidence of a problem. It doesn't matter if you're making this all up in your head. Here's what matters. You are feeling more than just a little insecure in your relationship. That ought to be a huge blinking urgent todo item in her head. If Carol ever felt that way, doing whatever was necessary to get her to see the truth would be the top 8 things on my priority list very quickly. If nothing else, I would know that I had failed terribly in communicating to Carol just how important she is to me and THAT is an important task worthy of immediate and urgent doing on my part.

In my mind, in this moment, your wife decides who she finds important. If it's not you then it's not. You don't have to be right. You just have to be worried which already speaks of deep problems.

Now, if you were to be having such fears and they turned out to be unfounded regularly that would be a different problem involving your insecurity. But if this is a one-short, first time sort of thing then I think she needs to get busy... now. I would be.


----------



## COguy

SkyIsBlue said:


> My initial gut feeling proved false. My wife did not go behind my back at all, but they did end up meeting. The other guy actually invited us both but there was no way I could make it.
> 
> I told her that I did not want her meeting him again unless I was with her. Plain and simple. At first, she just agreed and was understanding of my feelings on it. After more discussion this weekend, her tune has changed somewhat.
> 
> Now she says, finding a time where we can both meet him is completely impractical, bordering on ridiculous. Plus she doesn't want to have to tell him she can't meet unless I'm there. It makes our marriage seem immature and makes me look like a control freak. She actually started to get defensive about it and suggested that she would consider my opinion but would probably still meet with him if he asked.
> 
> I told her that if she did that, she would be completely disrespecting me and I would know where I stand. After a few minutes of pondering that point and reiterating that "there is nothing to worry about," she told me that should wouldn't disrespect me.
> 
> So now we're left with a bit of a rift. She's unhappy because I don't trust her and I'm coming off as controlling. I'm happy that I stood my ground, but wondering if I caused more damage than if I'd just let it go.


Well you could do exactly like you did, and know where you stand. Or you could keep playing the door mat like I did and then watch your wife slowly drift away from you until she cheats. Yeah of course no one thinks there wife will cheat, until they do.

Trust your gut, and don't be a little b*tch. If you aren't a naturally controlling, jealous person, and your gut tells you something is up.........something is up. If it makes you uncomfortable, step up to the plate and tell her no private communication with this guy.

I get kind of pissed off reading posts like this because it reminds me of myself before my wife cheated. I literally had no balls and would have reacted just like you. After you go through cheating, you realize how insanely pitiful it is.

"Please don't think I'm being inconsiderate, I don't want to come off controlling....I...I...I just am not really comfortable. But you go ahead and meet up with him anyway, I can't right now. Just I want to talk to him first, you know, make sure he is ok."

If you can't stand up for yourself enough to tell her to quit when you don't like it, I guarantee she will find someone to cheat with, just a matter of time. No one respects a doormat.

And BTW, her response is text book for someone who is about to start cheating. Pretty soon you'll be hearing the wishy-washy talk about how she feels trapped, needs space, she loves you but isn't in love with you, she's not sure what she wants. Losing weight, dressing sharper, more time out with "the girls", getting protective of phone/emails/facebook.

Don't let it get to that point, end this sh*t now. At the end of the day our responsibility is to our spouse. If something makes you uncomfortable, and she does it anyway, she's picking someone else over you (ie cheating).


----------



## SkyIsBlue

Thanks you guys. This sucks on a few levels, some of which I can't go into here. 



CandieGirl said:


> She is willing to consider your opinion and meet with him anyway? That smacks of disrespect and resentment on her part, and complete lack of regard for you and your marriage. You may want to point out to her that you protecting your marriage against another man is actually more like insurance, and is not necessarily 'controlling'. WTF???


We'll see. She did say that at first, but when I made it very clear that it would be disrespectful and would piss me off, I think she realized that was a mistake. Either that or she realized that she should tell me what I want to hear. Her point is simply that this guy has never hit on her, never acted like he was interested, and never done anything to make her think he wants to sleep with her. I'm about 95% sure I've seen everything they've written back and forth, and she's right about that. In print/text, he has no interest in her sexually or romantically.

She told me this morning that she understands that I'm "just telling her what I'm comfortable with," (in other words, not being controlling) and that she doesn't think the issue will even come up. We'll see. I feel like now I have to be really vigilant.


----------



## COguy

SkyIsBlue said:


> Thanks you guys. This sucks on a few levels, some of which I can't go into here.
> 
> 
> 
> We'll see. She did say that at first, but when I made it very clear that it would be disrespectful and would piss me off, I think she realized that was a mistake. Either that or she realized that she should tell me what I want to hear. Her point is simply that this guy has never hit on her, never acted like he was interested, and never done anything to make her think he wants to sleep with her. I'm about 95% sure I've seen everything they've written back and forth, and she's right about that. In print/text, he has no interest in her sexually or romantically.
> 
> She told me this morning that she understands that I'm "just telling her what I'm comfortable with," (in other words, not being controlling) and that she doesn't think the issue will even come up. We'll see. I feel like now I have to be really vigilant.


You should be. Just because it hasn't gotten inappropriate doesn't mean it won't. Have you ever spent time talking to a girl you didn't want to bang? Even if you had no intentions of acting on it? Now she's comforting him in his depressed time and he's obviously single.

Prepare for the slow fade........


----------



## SkyIsBlue

COguy said:


> And BTW, her response is text book for someone who is about to start cheating. Pretty soon you'll be hearing the wishy-washy talk about how she feels trapped, needs space, she loves you but isn't in love with you, she's not sure what she wants. Losing weight, dressing sharper, more time out with "the girls", getting protective of phone/emails/facebook.


That's the big dilemma, isn't it. You put your foot down to create a boundary, and she feels trapped. She told me she just wasn't used to me setting boundaries and making ultimatums like that. So let's see how she handles it.



Jeff/BC said:


> Now, if you were to be having such fears and they turned out to be unfounded regularly that would be a different problem involving your insecurity. But if this is a one-short, first time sort of thing then I think she needs to get busy... now. I would be.


Interesting point. She had a sort of mini-EA over a year ago that, I think, is affecting my thoughts on this. I waited way too long to set a boundary and even then did it weakly. Nothing makes you feel more insecure about your marriage than when your spouse starts to go outside of it.


----------



## CandieGirl

SkyIsBlue said:


> That's the big dilemma, isn't it. You put your foot down to create a boundary, and she feels trapped. She told me she just wasn't used to me setting boundaries and making ultimatums like that. So let's see how she handles it.
> 
> Interesting point. *She had a sort of mini-EA* over a year ago that, I think, is affecting my thoughts on this. I waited way too long to set a boundary and even then did it weakly. Nothing makes you feel more insecure about your marriage than when your spouse starts to go outside of it.


I'm going to hone in on this...and tell you again, do no let your wife meet up with this guy. ESPECIALLY with and EA (however mini) under hr belt. You know who the controlling one is? SHE is.


----------



## CandieGirl

SkyIsBlue said:


> Thanks you guys. This sucks on a few levels, some of which I can't go into here.
> 
> 
> 
> We'll see. She did say that at first, but when I made it very clear that it would be disrespectful and would piss me off, I think she realized that was a mistake. Either that or she realized that she should tell me what I want to hear. Her point is simply that this guy has never hit on her, never acted like he was interested, and never done anything to make her think he wants to sleep with her. I'm about 95% sure I've seen everything they've written back and forth, and she's right about that. In print/text, he has no interest in her sexually or romantically.
> 
> She told me this morning that she understands that I'm "just telling her what I'm comfortable with," (in other words, not being controlling) and that she doesn't think the issue will even come up. We'll see. I feel like now I have to be really vigilant.


What about the other 5%? Who cares if she thinks you're controlling, she obviously needs reigning in!

You know what? I once had an affair that could have been quite easily quashed, if my then boyfriend had put his foot down. Instead, I was basically openly dating someone else, right in front of him and everyone else we knew; we were 'just friends'. Until about 2 years in....then, all the clothes came off!

That's why I get so whipped up about posts like yours. She's basically asking your permission, and you're giving it to her.


----------



## Jeff/BC

SkyIsBlue said:


> Interesting point. She had a sort of mini-EA over a year ago that, I think, is affecting my thoughts on this.


~blinks~
Wait a second... she's already "sort of cheated on you" once? don't you think that ought to "affect your thoughts"?


----------



## Entropy3000

SkyIsBlue said:


> My initial gut feeling proved false. *My wife did not go behind my back at all, but they did end up meeting.* The other guy actually invited us both but there was no way I could make it.
> 
> I told her that I did not want her meeting him again unless I was with her. Plain and simple. At first, she just agreed and was understanding of my feelings on it. After more discussion this weekend, her tune has changed somewhat.
> 
> Now she says, finding a time where we can both meet him is completely impractical, bordering on ridiculous. Plus she doesn't want to have to tell him she can't meet unless I'm there. It makes our marriage seem immature and makes me look like a control freak. She actually started to get defensive about it and suggested that she would consider my opinion but would probably still meet with him if he asked.
> 
> I told her that if she did that, she would be completely disrespecting me and I would know where I stand. After a few minutes of pondering that point and reiterating that "there is nothing to worry about," she told me that should wouldn't disrespect me.
> 
> So now we're left with a bit of a rift. She's unhappy because I don't trust her and I'm coming off as controlling. I'm happy that I stood my ground, but wondering if I caused more damage than if I'd just let it go.


Me thinks she protests too much. So she did meet with him without you. She was able to make her date with him because you were unable to be there to c0ckblock, which is what we are talking about. Basically you need to tell her she must go NC with this guy. Your boundary of her seeing her male friend only with you present is very telling. She really wants to be isolated from you with this guy. She has way too much interest in this other guy for a married woman. She has indeed binded with this guy. A man other than her husband. This is already art the stage of at least an early EA and possibly more. 

I think you chose this type of boundary because you continue to be "fair". You need to come to grips with what you would like to believe about trust and all the idealism and with the harsh reality that if you do not get this squashed you are going to lose your wife to another man. maybe not this guy but this sets up a precedent for her to date other men under the guise of we are just friends who like to hangout. Married women do not hangout / date OM without severe consequnces to the marriage sooner or later. This is no longer about what you believe would be nice.

A woman breaks a husbands trust when she puts another man in between them. Marriage is about love and respect. She is acting like she is still single and has a steady guy but has not fully commited yet to the level of a married woman. For some reason you think being about this is going to help you. Stop being so nice. You made some progress, and I applaud you for starting down the road of boundaries. Her reaction to this is a red flag and indicates you need to tell her her relationship with this guy is unacceptable. Pull the c0ckblock routine off of the table. Realize that once in an EA being around the other person does not allow them to go through withdrawal.


----------



## Entropy3000

SkyIsBlue said:


> Thanks you guys. This sucks on a few levels, some of which I can't go into here.
> 
> 
> 
> We'll see. She did say that at first, but when I made it very clear that it would be disrespectful and would piss me off, I think she realized that was a mistake. Either that or she realized that she should tell me what I want to hear. Her point is simply that this guy has never hit on her, never acted like he was interested, and never done anything to make her think he wants to sleep with her. I'm about 95% sure I've seen everything they've written back and forth, and she's right about that. In print/text, he has no interest in her sexually or romantically.
> 
> She told me this morning that she understands that I'm "just telling her what I'm comfortable with," (in other words, not being controlling) and that she doesn't think the issue will even come up. We'll see. I feel like now I have to be really vigilant.


Dude, I was in an EA. They are often very innocent when they start. Realize that this is much like playing just the tip. You need her to drop this guy. You need a stronger boundary here. She is choosing him over you. Don't be gray about it because when someone is in an EA there are chemicals at work. She has split her loyalties across you too guys. Yet you are the one committed to her. She needs to go NC. I would then tell the other guy that he is to be gone for the rest of eternity. He is investing too much time in YOUR wife. Men do not do that unless they are looking for something more. You have been warned sir, by folks who have been through and see this for what it is. It is chemical. Oxytocin and Dopamine. You are very close to I Love You But I Am Not In Love with you. You will be called jealous, controlling and insecure. You are accussed of not trusting her. The truth is you should not trust the situation and you should not trust this other guy with YOUR wife. She is not HIS wife. Tell him to bug off but tell her first she must go NC.

Be aware that EAs can explode in a matter of days or hours. Meaning it can go to kissing which opens the flood gates to running to his pad to watch a movie. 

Oh that brings up a point. Where did she meet him. She is not going to his place is she? Sghe wants to cake eat.

Do you really think this guy would not want to have sex with her? Really?


----------



## COguy

SkyIsBlue said:


> That's the big dilemma, isn't it. You put your foot down to create a boundary, and she feels trapped. She told me she just wasn't used to me setting boundaries and making ultimatums like that. So let's see how she handles it.


No. Wrong. Errrrrgh!

That's not a dilemma. Her feeling trapped isn't a consequence of you setting boundaries. This is normal relationship stuff that every couple does to keep a healthy relationship.

It only feels like control, or being trapped, when she wants to go outside of the marriage to meet her needs. To put it another way, if she told you she wasn't comfortable with you going out alone with another woman whose company you enjoyed, would you turn around and call her controlling?

You're not being controlling, you're expressing your discomfort with her emotional bonding with another dude, and not tolerating it. You're sticking up for your marriage and trying to protect it. If that makes you controlling, then own it 100%.

Controlling is when you feel the need to micromanage her entire life. As a "nice guy", you can be the biggest douche on the planet and you'll end up somewhere in a healthy middle ground between total doormat and controlling jerkoff.

Don't accept your wife's protests that you're being a jerk. Reattach your sack and let her know that you aren't gonna be played like that.

As I'm fond of saying, WWBD, What Would Brad Pitt Do? Brad's a guy with self-respect. If Brad is married to your wife, is he going to let her text and FB message some weird guy so she can console him in his relationship depression? And then go meet up somewhere for drinks? Screw that! Brad would say something like, "I'm Brad effing Pitt, you can either have this package, or if that isn't enough, you can go get with loser boy. If this isn't good enough, let me know so I can split and start getting with hotter and better women." And then walk away completely unphased. Because Brad knows that if something happens in his relationship, he's still gonna go on to have a damn good life.

It's your wife's decision whether or not she wants to stay pot committed. You're not controlling anything, you're letting her know where you stand. If she makes the decision to disrespect, that's her problem not yours. If you put out a sign and say, "Don't touch the cookie or you'll get slapped." And someone touches the cookie and gets slapped, do you blame yourself for putting up the sign?


----------



## Entropy3000

SkyIsBlue said:


> That's the big dilemma, isn't it. You put your foot down to create a boundary, and she feels trapped. She told me she just wasn't used to me setting boundaries and making ultimatums like that. So let's see how she handles it.


It is only trapped is she wants to be in an open marriage and not willing to be mongamous. 

So yes boundaries are intend to establish integrity. if that integrity is not acceptable to a spouse then they feel trapped being married.

How much time do you think she spends worrying about your feelings? From evidence given ... not so much. She should never have put herself in to this.

Inappropriate -> Unfaithful -> Cheating.

Her relationship is inappropriate. You have shown this. Her have a conflict between choosing you of her boy friend is unfaithful. I have no idea whether they are in full blown cheating ... yet. But is it well on the way.

So where did they meet up?


----------



## Entropy3000

COguy said:


> No. Wrong. Errrrrgh!
> 
> That's not a dilemma. Her feeling trapped isn't a consequence of you setting boundaries. This is normal relationship stuff that every couple does to keep a healthy relationship.
> 
> It only feels like control, or being trapped, when she wants to go outside of the marriage to meet her needs. To put it another way, if she told you she wasn't comfortable with you going out alone with another woman whose company you enjoyed, would you turn around and call her controlling?
> 
> You're not being controlling, you're expressing your discomfort with her emotional bonding with another dude, and not tolerating it. You're sticking up for your marriage and trying to protect it. If that makes you controlling, then own it 100%.
> 
> Controlling is when you feel the need to micromanage her entire life. As a "nice guy", you can be the biggest douche on the planet and you'll end up somewhere in a healthy middle ground between total doormat and controlling jerkoff.
> 
> Don't accept your wife's protests that you're being a jerk. Reattach your sack and let her know that you aren't gonna be played like that.
> 
> As I'm fond of saying, WWBD, What Would Brad Pitt Do? Brad's a guy with self-respect. If Brad is married to your wife, is he going to let her text and FB message some weird guy so she can console him in his relationship depression? And then go meet up somewhere for drinks? Screw that! Brad would say something like, "I'm Brad effing Pitt, you can either have this package, or if that isn't enough, you can go get with loser boy. If this isn't good enough, let me know so I can split and start getting with hotter and better women." And then walk away completely unphased. Because Brad knows that if something happens in his relationship, he's still gonna go on to have a damn good life.
> 
> It's your wife's decision whether or not she wants to stay pot committed. You're not controlling anything, you're letting her know where you stand. If she makes the decision to disrespect, that's her problem not yours. If you put out a sign and say, "Don't touch the cookie or you'll get slapped." And someone touches the cookie and gets slapped, do you blame yourself for putting up the sign?


I lke the WWBD. Egos aside folks, this is how I am about my marriage. If a guy is dialing back his boundaries because he feels he falls short of being his wife's Brad Pitt he might as well just hand her off to the next guy she fancies. You better be her Brad Effing Pitt. This is what your attitude has to be.

If you are worried about offending your wife due to her relationship with her boy friend you might as well let the BF help with the decisions you make around the house. Maybe he should pick the color for the bedroom. It will be his soon enough. No joke.


----------



## CandieGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> I lke the WWBD. Egos aside folks, this is how I am about my marriage. If a guy is dialing back his boundaries because he feels he falls short of being his wife's Brad Pitt he might as well just hand her off to the next guy she fancies. You better be her Brad Effing Pitt. This is what your attitude has to be.


He's probably having the same problem I'm having...my husband understands the need for boundaries and he gets that I'm trying to protect the marriage; but he's only 80% convinced. The other 20% he's busy trying to make exceptions for women he's known a long time, or women he doesn't perceive as a threat. Where I see things like boundaries that MUST apply to all. He thinks that I see everyone out there as a potential threat. And maybe I do; but I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Sometimes I think he needs to see things from my perspective; he would need to see what a threatening male outsider really looked like and then he'd see where I'm coming from and take these things seriously, instead of just humouring me, going along with it just to keep the peace.


----------



## Entropy3000

CandieGirl said:


> He's probably having the same problem I'm having...my husband understands the need for boundaries and he gets that I'm trying to protect the marriage; but he's only 80% convinced. The other 20% he's busy trying to make exceptions for women he's known a long time, or women he doesn't perceive as a threat. Where I see things like boundaries that MUST apply to all. He thinks that I see everyone out there as a potential threat. And maybe I do; but I'd rather be safe than sorry.
> 
> Sometimes I think he needs to see things from my perspective; he would need to see what a threatening male outsider really looked like and then he'd see where I'm coming from and take these things seriously, instead of just humouring me, going along with it just to keep the peace.


Good insight. I think you nailed it.


----------



## SkyIsBlue

CandieGirl said:


> He's probably having the same problem I'm having...my husband understands the need for boundaries and he gets that I'm trying to protect the marriage; but he's only 80% convinced. The other 20% he's busy trying to make exceptions for women he's known a long time, or women he doesn't perceive as a threat. Where I see things like boundaries that MUST apply to all. He thinks that I see everyone out there as a potential threat. And maybe I do; but I'd rather be safe than sorry.


This is where I'm at now. The reason I chose to frame the boundary as I did is that I'm not sure if this guy is actually a threat. Do I worry he is? Yes. Do I think he could be at some point? Yes. But I do have enough respect for my wife at this point to give her at least some benefit of the doubt. I'm not someone that believes that every man can be categorized as a walking penis--I have more respect for myself than that so I can afford that to others until I see differently.

That's why I haven't just said, "no contact you cheating *****," because that would be far too extreme given what I know.



> Sometimes I think he needs to see things from my perspective; he would need to see what a threatening male outsider really looked like and then he'd see where I'm coming from and take these things seriously, instead of just humouring me, going along with it just to keep the peace.


I agree with you here. The problem is that it's just about impossible. Whether she's convinced the guy's just friendly, or she actually wants to escalate their relationship--either way it's impossible for her to actually step into my shoes to feel what I'm feeling. To commit to my boundary, it has to be an act of faith on her part, because her gut feeling is going to be totally different.




COGuy said:


> That's not a dilemma. Her feeling trapped isn't a consequence of you setting boundaries. This is normal relationship stuff that every couple does to keep a healthy relationship.


I'm not saying she's actually trapped, or that's how she should feel. I'm saying that's the risk you run when you establish a boundary that wasn't there before. Yes, I regret not bringing this up with her six months ago with this guy, but there didn't seem to be any chance of them actually meeting.



COGuy said:


> It's your wife's decision whether or not she wants to stay pot committed. You're not controlling anything, you're letting her know where you stand. If she makes the decision to disrespect, that's her problem not yours.


This is exactly how I'm approaching it. 

Basically, I've said, "I have a weird feeling about you being with this guy alone, despite the fact that there's no evidence that there's any threat. I'm not OK with it, so I don't want you to meet with him again unless I'm with you."

If other things happen that require action, I will take it, but at this point I've done what I can reasonably do. 




Jeff/BC said:


> ~blinks~
> Wait a second... she's already "sort of cheated on you" once? don't you think that ought to "affect your thoughts"?


That's exactly what I'm saying, Jeff. If the stuff before hadn't happened, I'd probably still be a little wary but nowhere near as vocal about my boundaries. I made a commitment to myself that I would not stand for it again. If I see this relationship going down the road to an EA or PA, I'm putting a stop to it. And if she refuses, she can find a man who will put up with it.

I've made all that clear to her already.


----------



## CandieGirl

Sky-I have respect for my husband, too, and yes, it bothers him that the trust isn't 100% there. Why isn't it? Because he used to lie to me. Not about anything major, but the damage was done. I suspect that the damage to you was done during your wife's mini-EA...tell her that. She's got to earn back the trust - and I don't mean by letting her have her friend...


----------



## COguy

You got burned before and didn't learn your lesson. Threats don't "appear" (well sometimes they do, but not usually). Threats are forged through time and slow growth. Most married women don't go from happy housewife to cheating wh*re. They develop an emotional bond over time and then do the slow fade and all of a sudden "it just happened!"

You set boundaries not because your wife is a wh*re, but because you don't want inappropriate relationships to develop. As you said, you have this conversation six months ago and you'll never be posting on the boards about how uncomfortable you are.

And don't be naive. A long distance EA can be just as detrimental and dangerous. Look at how many stories on here that started out like yours ended up with a woman who went through extraordinary lengths to hook up. Lying about business trips, stealing the family car for two weeks. Hell, my wife was ready to take out a credit card just to fund a "spiritual vacation" that involved screwing her 2,000 mile away EA partner over the weekend.

Don't make the same mistakes we did. Grow some nards, establish boundaries, and hold eachother accountable to them. If she doesn't like that, you've got bigger problems than supposedly stirring the hornet's nest. If talking about boundaries riles anyone's feathers, you're in a dangerous place.

This guy IS a threat and the only one that can't see it is you. She's willing to CONSIDER pissing you off just to see him. If he wasn't a threat it wouldn't be worth the hassle for her. Would you piss off your wife to go meet with a butt ugly homeless woman? Probably not, but if Megan Fox wanted to meet for a drink after work, you'd probably CONSIDER it.

Girls aren't as superficial, they've been talking for 6 months, admittedly 2nd only to you. They're bonding emotionally. Chemicals are at work in her brain, the same chemicals that work in yours when you see a hot naked woman.


----------



## Entropy3000

SkyIsBlue said:


> This is where I'm at now. The reason I chose to frame the boundary as I did is that I'm not sure if this guy is actually a threat. Do I worry he is? Yes. Do I think he could be at some point? Yes. But I do have enough respect for my wife at this point to give her at least some benefit of the doubt. I'm not someone that believes that every man can be categorized as a walking penis--I have more respect for myself than that so I can afford that to others until I see differently.
> 
> That's why I haven't just said, "no contact you cheating *****," because that would be far too extreme given what I know.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with you here. The problem is that it's just about impossible. Whether she's convinced the guy's just friendly, or she actually wants to escalate their relationship--either way it's impossible for her to actually step into my shoes to feel what I'm feeling. To commit to my boundary, it has to be an act of faith on her part, because her gut feeling is going to be totally different.
> 
> 
> I'm not saying she's actually trapped, or that's how she should feel. I'm saying that's the risk you run when you establish a boundary that wasn't there before. Yes, I regret not bringing this up with her six months ago with this guy, but there didn't seem to be any chance of them actually meeting.
> 
> This is exactly how I'm approaching it.
> 
> Basically, I've said, "I have a weird feeling about you being with this guy alone, despite the fact that there's no evidence that there's any threat. I'm not OK with it, so I don't want you to meet with him again unless I'm with you."
> 
> If other things happen that require action, I will take it, but at this point I've done what I can reasonably do.
> 
> 
> That's exactly what I'm saying, Jeff. If the stuff before hadn't happened, I'd probably still be a little wary but nowhere near as vocal about my boundaries. I made a commitment to myself that I would not stand for it again. If I see this relationship going down the road to an EA or PA, I'm putting a stop to it. And if she refuses, she can find a man who will put up with it.
> 
> I've made all that clear to her already.


You do not object to the situation AFTER it happens. Boundaries are intended to stop it BEFORE it happens. Boundaries are not for cheaters. They are for non cheaters.

It is not about her cheating, which she may be. I think she is being unfaithful at the least. It is you allowing her to date another man. Now all this should be very clear but you just flat want it to be another way.

She does need to make that act of faith and trust you. Why is it all about trusting her? She is not respecting or trusting you. If she really loved you she would be too afraid of pushing you away. That is the red flag.

All men not her relatives are a threat. You don't want to believe this. This guy is single. OMG. He is invested in her. No guy is harmless. Anyway, good luck.


----------



## moxy

Any guy she is talking to almost as much as her hubby is a threat. It's not that he's a walking penis, but that he's a fixture in her life that is almost as constant as you, meaning...he's the competition.

So, be firm about this. You're tip-toeing around the issue and telling her it's not a problem for you. She's going to take that to mean that since her H doesn't care all that much to give her attention, it's okay to get attention from the other source of male attention (potential OM). She's testing the waters. This is how affairs begin. You have the chance to stop it now or watch yourself get sucked into the whirlpool of disaster that lives on the CWI boards because many there didn't notice that the waters were being tested...

Just tell her firmly and confidently that you think she spends too much time with this guy and it bugs you. You're not telling her she can't have guy friends, just telling her that this guy is de-stabilizing the sanctity of your marriage and she is encouraging it and that's not okay with you.

Tell her that she is being shady and that if she cares about you and your marriage she will not hook up with some dude, even "just as friends" because her attention to this dude is a problem for you. If she goes anyway, give her the cold shoulder and let her know that you are NOT okay with it...and then monitor what she does to make sure it doesn't happen again or become an affair. If she concedes to your request and chooses the marriage over the moron on the sidelines, then you up your ante at home by being more romantic and giving her the attention that she is clearly craving; that will show her that you do care and that she can get her needs met at home by asking.

You might risk upsetting her and pushing her away, but, if she cares less about her husband than she does about Joe Schmoe, then she's not worth holding on to. Don't let this crumble because you're afraid of pushing her away (Mr Nice Guy); show her that you value the marriage and are protecting it for the both of you.


----------



## CandieGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> You do not object to the situation AFTER it happens. Boundaries are intended to stop it BEFORE it happens. Boundaries are not for cheaters. They are for non cheaters.
> 
> It is not about her cheating, which she may be. I think she is being unfaithful at the least. *It is you allowing her to date another man. Now all this should be very clear but you just flat want it to be another way.*
> 
> She does need to make that act of faith and trust you. Why is it all about trusting her? She is not respecting or trusting you. If she really loved you she would be too afraid of pushing you away. That is the red flag.
> 
> All men not her relatives are a threat. You don't want to believe this. This guy is single. OMG. He is invested in her. No guy is harmless. Anyway, good luck.


This is like a deja vu for me! My husband (2x) expected me to have no problem with him going out for supper with a former colleague (female, single, attractive). He half-heartedly invited me along, knowing full well that I'd say no. What he didn't count on, was the 'no' being NO to the whole outing, not just the part about me tagging along. Told him it just all sounded too much like a date. 'So come with us', he said. Um...NO. Was H disappointed? Yes, he sure was. At least I won't be back here in 6 months on the CWI board, devastated, broken, wishing I'd been firmer about my boundaries. This woman was (is) trying to step into my marriage...into a spot that only I should be occupying. She is infringing on MY boundaries, and my husband has been made aware of how it makes me feel.


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## SkyIsBlue

First and foremost, I do appreciate all of you taking the time to give me your input and share your personal experiences.

But I have to ask...do you guys actually read a lot of what is posted? I came here, and many of you suggested simply setting a boundary. I did that--I made it very clear what I found acceptable and what I didn't. She pushed back a little, but relented and said she would not meet him again without me. What part of that is disrespectful to me?

I haven't tip-toed around any issues--I've said straight out how I feel and what I will accept.

I realize so many of you simply think that she should abandon this friendship altogether. That seems to be the drum beat around here. I've explained why I will not give that ultimatum at this time. Why does this mean I have no balls?

Again, I'm keeping my eyes wide open on this. If I see this escalate, or if I see other red flags, I will take more action.


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## COguy

SkyIsBlue said:


> First and foremost, I do appreciate all of you taking the time to give me your input and share your personal experiences.
> 
> But I have to ask...do you guys actually read a lot of what is posted? I came here, and many of you suggested simply setting a boundary. I did that--I made it very clear what I found acceptable and what I didn't. She pushed back a little, but relented and said she would not meet him again without me. What part of that is disrespectful to me?
> 
> I haven't tip-toed around any issues--I've said straight out how I feel and what I will accept.
> 
> I realize so many of you simply think that she should abandon this friendship altogether. That seems to be the drum beat around here. I've explained why I will not give that ultimatum at this time. Why does this mean I have no balls?
> 
> Again, I'm keeping my eyes wide open on this. If I see this escalate, or if I see other red flags, I will take more action.


I'm just more frustrated that you're so blind to recognize this guy is a threat. Even in your defense of your positions you display that your wife has interest in this guy. So yes you can "be on alert" and act more and more reactively every day they bond more. Or you can cut it off now and tell her to stop talking to this dude privately.

I won't give you any more advice. Because you're either going to see it, or not. And if you can't see it, no amount of advice is going to help you. I can just tell you I've been there, and I've seen plenty of others go through it here on TAM. Your story is the beginning of many "nice guy" cheating stories. Sounds like the beginning of mine...


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## Halien

SkyIsBlue said:


> First and foremost, I do appreciate all of you taking the time to give me your input and share your personal experiences.
> 
> But I have to ask...do you guys actually read a lot of what is posted? I came here, and many of you suggested simply setting a boundary. I did that--I made it very clear what I found acceptable and what I didn't. She pushed back a little, but relented and said she would not meet him again without me. What part of that is disrespectful to me?
> 
> I haven't tip-toed around any issues--I've said straight out how I feel and what I will accept.
> 
> I realize so many of you simply think that she should abandon this friendship altogether. That seems to be the drum beat around here. I've explained why I will not give that ultimatum at this time. Why does this mean I have no balls?
> 
> Again, I'm keeping my eyes wide open on this. If I see this escalate, or if I see other red flags, I will take more action.


When you mentioned her previous mini-EA, along with her general reluctance to respect your boundaries. it is really more of a case of those reading your thread realizing that you may be at a much higher risk than what it seemed before. Its not like suggesting that you didn't respond adequately. Problem is, with your approach, you'll only find out if she has crossed the lines after it happens.... again.

Given this previous EA, she should be feeling the burden of wanting to secure her marriage to you, not securing her independence from you. It feels like you could be fighting a very risky threat, here. Especially since you haven't given any background about her remorse in crossing the line already.


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## Entropy3000

SkyIsBlue said:


> First and foremost, I do appreciate all of you taking the time to give me your input and share your personal experiences.
> 
> But I have to ask...do you guys actually read a lot of what is posted? I came here, and many of you suggested simply setting a boundary. I did that--I made it very clear what I found acceptable and what I didn't. She pushed back a little, but relented and said she would not meet him again without me. What part of that is disrespectful to me?
> 
> I haven't tip-toed around any issues--I've said straight out how I feel and what I will accept.
> 
> I realize so many of you simply think that she should abandon this friendship altogether. That seems to be the drum beat around here. I've explained why I will not give that ultimatum at this time. Why does this mean I have no balls?
> 
> Again, I'm keeping my eyes wide open on this. If I see this escalate, or if I see other red flags, I will take more action.


Where you set the boundary was a big part of your problem. The boundary itself is very unclear. Having a poor boundary provides a false sense of security. Perhaps you should read up on boundary setting.

Unfortunately this is going to have to get a lot worse for you to get that sense of urgency. That sense of violation. She indeed should cut this guiy out of her life.

BUT, since you are not convinced she is not getting the right vibe from you. That you mean it. That she is worth the effort.

Trust me when I say there have been guys on this board that could walk in with their sweet wife riding the OM and they would want more proof.

At some point I believe in Darwinism.


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## eowyn

SkyIsBlue said:


> First and foremost, I do appreciate all of you taking the time to give me your input and share your personal experiences.
> 
> But I have to ask...do you guys actually read a lot of what is posted? I came here, and many of you suggested simply setting a boundary. I did that--I made it very clear what I found acceptable and what I didn't. She pushed back a little, but relented and said she would not meet him again without me. What part of that is disrespectful to me?
> 
> I haven't tip-toed around any issues--I've said straight out how I feel and what I will accept.
> 
> I realize so many of you simply think that she should abandon this friendship altogether. That seems to be the drum beat around here. I've explained why I will not give that ultimatum at this time. Why does this mean I have no balls?
> 
> Again, I'm keeping my eyes wide open on this. If I see this escalate, or if I see other red flags, I will take more action.



I would have advised otherwise, however the mini-EA your wife had previously certainly raises a red-flag in my mind and changes the overall perspective of this situation. How much do you trust her honesty and integrity? This is probably not a situation where you need to defend your hen from another fox, but rather a situation where you need to see what your hen is upto. 

Have you met this other guy? What is his relationship status? Do you know what topics they chat about? Do they have any common friends?


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## Entropy3000

Honesty and integrity are wonderful. However, people with honesty and integrity with poor boundaries become involved in EAs all of the time. They are less likely to go into the bond intending to be unfaithful but it is chemical and effects their behavior none-the-less. They bond and fall in love. They obtain a dopamine rush. They miss the other person when not near them. They will fight against thier own spouse to be with the affair partner. This is not conjecture. It is actual science. People with honesty and integrity who play with addictive drugs are not to be trusted.

Consider integrity and what it really means. I suggest that true integrity requires boundaries. That honesty includes transparency. One would hope that integrity and honsety will help a person to love and respect thier mate. What can happen however is that the definition of that "primary" mate can actually change to the affair partner. In other words they love but are not in love with their "primary" mate any longer. They receive the in love feelings from another person. So this becomes a dilemma that must be reconsiled. They become bonded to another and loyal to that other person against their own spouse. They feel confused. Then history re-writing to justify this behavior.

A person of true integrity will avoid putting themselves in harms way altogether. A person of integrity will not go against the wishes of thier mate in these areas. They will not take risks with thier marriage. So to say trust me I have integrity is an oxymoron. A person with integrity will say, trust me I have integrity and therefore I will not put myself in the gray areas. I have integrity so I will honor the boundaries of our marriage. Those people have integrity. 

The people who show no respect for their partners concerns are not trustworthy. They demonstrate low integrity. Once a person bonds within an EA they will fight to keep it going. It is an addiction and they will become less honest with others and more importantly themselves. They delude themselves into believeing that anything that feels so good, so right has to be good and honest. They are under the influence of chemicals and thier usual judgement is impaired. They have lost their integrity. An EA is an addiction. The same brain chemicals are involved as with addictive drugs.

What is my point? That trust is broken when the spouse puts themselves into the situation even when thier spouse objects. This is not only inappropriate and unwise but is by definition ... unfaithful. It is not a matter of waiting for the spouse to actually consummate some other form of cheating. The betrayal began when they chose the other person over their spouse. The rest is just the betrayal playing out. So allowing this to go on is putting up with and enabling an unfaithful spouse in my opinion. Waiting to see what happens is conflict avoidance. Unfortunately it is also tacet approval that demonstrates low value to the WS. It is less about a grain of salt and more like a gram of coke.


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## COguy

Entropy, that's one of the best posts I've read on TAM in regards to "cheating", it should be stickied.


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## Entropy3000

COguy said:


> Entropy, that's one of the best posts I've read on TAM in regards to "cheating", it should be stickied.


A sincere thank you. Your comment means more than you could know. I am especially passionate about this topic. In many ways I feel I have a debt to repay. I have given a lot of thought over the years from the perspective of one who has been in an EA. It scared the [email protected] out of me. It shatterred my self respect and took me many years to truly recover. I thought I was superman. I loved my wife. She forgave me and was very understanding of the situation. Her love throughout has humbled me in a very good way.

I learned that we can all be vulnerable under the right circumstances. That is a very hard thing to come to grips with. I was arrogant, naive and had no clear boundaries. Now at least I have boundaries. I worked long hours in an intense environment so I was not meeting my wife's needs and I was not allowing my wife to meet mine. Instead I slowly was having some of them met by another. I was certain this was just a great friendship. I know now I had lost my integrity over this. I later realized it was a betrayal against the person who loved me the most in this world. The person I had promised myself to. My wife had enough love and compassion to reach out to me and pull me from this abyss. I was so in the fog with my head all the way up my @ss that I was sure I was ok. But my wife still lived at my center albeit it under attack. So I listened to her though I did not understand. There is an urgency to this.

My wife intervening was an act of love that intervened with my selfishness and ignorance. I was like a drug addict who needed intervention. She could have walked away and been justified to do so. So she was there for me in the face of my betrayal. She was not a doormat. But rather a compassionate partner who was looking out for her mate and her marriage. I have found this level of commitment on her part to be very humbling. In no way did she enable things. She told me what was happening. I insisted this was just a close friendship. She said it was not acceptable to her. She enlisted support from mutual friends and though my brain did not understand I listened to her. It was literally a voice in the fog I could not resist. I went through withdrawal for over a month. She saved us.

I suppose this is a tremendous threadjack ... BUT, I think it relates. His spouse is in an EA. He needs to not wait and see in my opinion. He should look at this as being compassionate to his wife. She is in over her head. If she is doing this intentionally then that is a whole other matter. In either case he should continue with the boundaries and consider firming them up with some consequences. The guy is indeed and affair partner now. he has come between a husband and wife. They are meeting each other needs. The fact she has already had an EA should indicate a lack of boundaries on her part.


----------



## CandieGirl

Entropy3000 said:


> A sincere thank you. Your comment means more than you could know. I am especially passionate about this topic. In many ways I feel I have a debt to repay. I have given a lot of thought over the years from the perspective of one who has been in an EA. It scared the [email protected] out of me. It shatterred my self respect and took me many years to truly recover. I thought I was superman. I loved my wife. She forgave me and was very understanding of the situation. Her love throughout has humbled me in a very good way.
> 
> I learned that we can all be vulnerable under the right circumstances. That is a very hard thing to come to grips with. I was arrogant, naive and had no clear boundaries. Now at least I have boundaries. I worked long hours in an intense environment so I was not meeting my wife's needs and I was not allowing my wife to meet mine. Instead I slowly was having some of them met by another. I was certain this was just a great friendship. I know now I had lost my integrity over this. I later realized it was a betrayal against the person who loved me the most in this world. The person I had promised myself to. My wife had enough love and compassion to reach out to me and pull me from this abyss. I was so in the fog with my head all the way up my @ss that I was sure I was ok. But my wife still lived at my center albeit it under attack. So I listened to her though I did not understand. There is an urgency to this.
> 
> *My wife intervening was an act of love that intervened with my selfishness and ignorance. * I was like a drug addict who needed intervention. She could have walked away and been justified to do so. So she was there for me in the face of my betrayal. She was not a doormat. But rather a compassionate partner who was looking out for her mate and her marriage. I have found this level of commitment on her part to be very humbling. In no way did she enable things. She told me what was happening. I insisted this was just a close friendship. She said it was not acceptable to her. She enlisted support from mutual friends and though my brain did not understand I listened to her. It was literally a voice in the fog I could not resist. I went through withdrawal for over a month. She saved us.


This is what I long for my husband to realize; right now, I think he still thinks of me as somewhat 'controlling'. Well, in a way, yes, I'd like to control the direction of our marriage, instead of leaving it to chance (autopilot). I do it for love!


----------



## SkyIsBlue

Again, thank you all for your thoughts. I'm impressed and a little awed by the commitment you guys have to helping people on this board.

I've actually been reading these boards since the marriage first started having problems over a year ago. I've read a ton of threads, read recommended articles, MMSL, etc. and learned many things all as a result of trying to deal with my wife's earlier mistakes. Very little of what you are saying is truly new to me, but I do think every situation is unique enough that no one formula can be applied.

I've been trying to think of a good, clear answer to why I'm objecting to some of your advice, one that goes beyond, "that's not what's happening to my marriage blah blah blah."

When my wife got caught up before, it was an emotional affair at the most superficial level. Some guy at work started hitting on her--subtly at first but quickly escalated. She enjoyed the attention--a lot--but all the while thought of it as a game. It wasn't until he escalated physically that she really reined it in. Then when I confronted her later with my suspicions, she admitted the whole thing and began to realize what she'd done.

My point in telling this is simply to show that both my wife and I are familiar with the fog, even without any deep emotional involvement. She knows she got caught up in it before, and I know what she looked like when she was in the middle of it. 

One reason I've been reluctant to just stomp this out altogether is that I haven't seen anything like that fog on her part, and this guy does not behave at all like the other guy. No escalating, no flirting, barely even a positive compliment. It's not deeply emotional and it's not sexual. Other than my gut feeling that she's getting something out of this that she shouldn't, I have nothing to go on. 

That's why I posted in the first place. If this isn't an inappropriate relationship and I put a stranglehold on it, I do damage to my marriage and run the risk of her hiding things when she thinks I will overreact. But if I don't set a boundary, (a) I look weak, and (b) it could escalate to something else.


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## Entropy3000

CandieGirl said:


> This is what I long for my husband to realize; right now, I think he still thinks of me as somewhat 'controlling'. Well, in a way, yes, I'd like to control the direction of our marriage, instead of leaving it to chance (autopilot). I do it for love!


It took me a while to realize all of this. Layer by layer. I guess if your boundaries are lacking good sense feels controlling.


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## CandieGirl

SkyIsBlue said:


> That's why I posted in the first place. If this isn't an inappropriate relationship and I put a stranglehold on it, *I do damage to my marriage and run the risk of her hiding things when she thinks I will overreact.* But if I don't set a boundary, (a) I look weak, and (b) it could escalate to something else.


Boundaries 101 - your wife should NOT be hiding things from you. In fact, if you only had the choice of one boundary, this should be it, 100% complete honesty! You don't look weak; but your boundaries are...


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## Shooboomafoo

I can hear the argument now.
"I dont want you to go out with him, you consider him a friend, but I am unsure of his motives". What man of any "character" at all would NOT know that she is married and that he looks suspicious to a husband? Only those kinds of men that dont give a sh!t.
Shes going to call you "controlling" and overbearing with it, and you will get mad because she doesnt understand boundaries, and then you will be at an empasse.
What will you do?


----------



## strugglinghusband

Entropy3000 said:


> A sincere thank you. Your comment means more than you could know. I am especially passionate about this topic. In many ways I feel I have a debt to repay. I have given a lot of thought over the years from the perspective of one who has been in an EA. It scared the [email protected] out of me. It shatterred my self respect and took me many years to truly recover. I thought I was superman. I loved my wife. She forgave me and was very understanding of the situation. Her love throughout has humbled me in a very good way.
> 
> I learned that we can all be vulnerable under the right circumstances. That is a very hard thing to come to grips with. I was arrogant, naive and had no clear boundaries. Now at least I have boundaries. I worked long hours in an intense environment so I was not meeting my wife's needs and I was not allowing my wife to meet mine. Instead I slowly was having some of them met by another. I was certain this was just a great friendship. I know now I had lost my integrity over this. I later realized it was a betrayal against the person who loved me the most in this world. The person I had promised myself to. My wife had enough love and compassion to reach out to me and pull me from this abyss. I was so in the fog with my head all the way up my @ss that I was sure I was ok. But my wife still lived at my center albeit it under attack. So I listened to her though I did not understand. There is an urgency to this.
> 
> My wife intervening was an act of love that intervened with my selfishness and ignorance. I was like a drug addict who needed intervention. She could have walked away and been justified to do so. So she was there for me in the face of my betrayal. She was not a doormat. But rather a compassionate partner who was looking out for her mate and her marriage. I have found this level of commitment on her part to be very humbling. In no way did she enable things. She told me what was happening. I insisted this was just a close friendship. She said it was not acceptable to her. She enlisted support from mutual friends and though my brain did not understand I listened to her. It was literally a voice in the fog I could not resist. I went through withdrawal for over a month. She saved us.
> 
> I suppose this is a tremendous threadjack ... BUT, I think it relates. His spouse is in an EA. He needs to not wait and see in my opinion. He should look at this as being compassionate to his wife. She is in over her head. If she is doing this intentionally then that is a whole other matter. In either case he should continue with the boundaries and consider firming them up with some consequences. The guy is indeed and affair partner now. he has come between a husband and wife. They are meeting each other needs. The fact she has already had an EA should indicate a lack of boundaries on her part.


By reading your posts, I've learned more about what an E/A is, how they start and the effects/damage,fog, ... better than anything else I've read anywhere,(links,books etc)...for that... I thank you.


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## Jeff/BC

SkyIsBlue said:


> But I have to ask...do you guys actually read a lot of what is posted? I came here, and many of you suggested simply setting a boundary. I did that--I made it very clear what I found acceptable and what I didn't. She pushed back a little, but relented and said she would not meet him again without me. What part of that is disrespectful to me?


Wow... What an interesting question to address seriously. I think I will.

I do... really I try to. But think about it. It's hard as hell to get an accurate picture of what's going on in this venue. You try to read and understand but it's like trying to understand what's outside a window when the glass is covered with dirt & grime. Text communication just misses so much bandwidth. 

I generally figure I've "won" if some tiny part of something I posted was actually close enough to get the real answer in motion. Anything more than that is... in my mind anyway... wishful thinking. After probably 30k posts on various relationship forums, the number of times I've responded and actually hit the nail dead on can probably be counted on the fingers of one hand.

Heck! I'm having a really good day today because in a rare and I'm certain fleeting moment of clarity I actually understand my own relationship with my wife of 15 years through and through.


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## Shooboomafoo

Your question from the original poster, hits home with me, only because the issues I saw and wished to work out with my wife were differences of core beliefs in a marriage. To her, having boundaries was controlling. I should just trust blindly and accept everything as truth. It turned out badly and she cheated on me and got a divorce from me. All while I was doing as suggested, and blindly trusting because not doing so was a fault.
I hit that empasse with her constantly and it really only seemed to leave divorce as the only outcome. She felt like I was putting her under the thumb, in order to prevent something that I should trust would never happen. 
At the cost of my dignity, the value of my efforts for sixteen years, and the secure future of a ten year old daughter able to grow up in a loving complete family/home. 
I sure hope Mr. Fantastic was worth it. OH but hes already gone... shes on to Number Two now...


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## CandieGirl

Shooboomafoo said:


> Your question from the original poster, hits home with me, only because the issues I saw and wished to work out with my wife were differences of core beliefs in a marriage. *To her, having boundaries was controlling. I should just trust blindly and accept everything as truth.* It turned out badly and she cheated on me and got a divorce from me. All while I was doing as suggested, and blindly trusting because not doing so was a fault.
> I hit that empasse with her constantly and it really only seemed to leave divorce as the only outcome. She felt like I was putting her under the thumb, in order to prevent something that I should trust would never happen.
> At the cost of my dignity, the value of my efforts for sixteen years, and the secure future of a ten year old daughter able to grow up in a loving complete family/home.
> I sure hope Mr. Fantastic was worth it. OH but hes already gone... shes on to Number Two now...


This is my struggle; H goes along just to pacify me. And really? He should know better, yet somehow, he doesn't. His 'blindly trusted' his first wife enough to let her move ahead to a new city without him while he packed up and sold the house. Then, surprise! Guess what? H wasn't invited along, she had gone off with their children, bought a new car, set up house, bought new furniture, and temporarily moved the OM in, WITH her and the kids, all on my H's dime! Priceless...


----------



## Jeff/BC

Shooboomafoo said:


> I should just trust blindly and accept everything as truth.


I absolutely agree with her. In a perfect world that's exactly how it would be. But what people never seem to consider in such statements is that the obvious requirement for "blind trust" is someone who is "impeccably trustworthy". If Carol isn't trusting of me, I'm looking in the mirror to learn why.


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## eowyn

Any chance this other guy might be gay? Just a random thought. The behavior of this guy is a little confusing.


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## SkyIsBlue

eowyn said:


> Any chance this other guy might be gay? Just a random thought. The behavior of this guy is a little confusing.


He's had relationships with women in the past--my wife had met one or two of his girlfriends from months ago. I don't think he's gay. Not to get too sarcastic, but I'm surprised no one has asked if my wife is fat and ugly.  (She's not.) I've been through this with my wife several times--she's convinced he just isn't interested in her that way. I said I have no doubt he would approach it if she hinted at it, and she's reluctantly agreed he probably would.

The thing is, the guy has made a lot of comments about wanting a longer term relationship and not being someone who likes to sleep around. He had a taste of a great relationship once, but it went south and he regrets it. That's part of why they started talking in the first place. So if he hasn't engaged my wife in any sexual way, and he certainly hasn't engaged her in an deeply emotional way (as in wanting a LTR _with her_), I'm not sure what to make of him. 


I can say with certainty that there is no "blind trust" on my part and my wife certainly doesn't expect that. After the previous situation, my feelers are always out.



Jeff/BC said:


> You try to read and understand but it's like trying to understand what's outside a window when the glass is covered with dirt & grime. Text communication just misses so much bandwidth.


I understand that, as a veteran if Internet forums, etc. I apologize if I seemed short, but I do find it frustrating that there is ever only one solution: no contact ever again!! 

As a man with female friends to whom I'm not attracted, I just don't see it as the end-all.


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## Conrad

SkyIsBlue,

Like you, I have many female friends to which I'm not attracted.

Yet, part of the commitment I have with my wife is if she has a problem with any of my female friends, they're out.

This is one of many things where you would expect reciprocity. It's actually a pretty liberal view, but it lets your partner know their feelings matter.

Of course, when it's come time FOR that reciprocity? Well, let's just say that's one of the reasons we're separated.


----------



## Jeff/BC

SkyIsBlue said:


> As a man with female friends to whom I'm not attracted, I just don't see it as the end-all.


I agree. Nothing is the "end-all". My marriage is not your marriage or even remotely like most people's marriage so my viewpoints are just that... my viewpoints -- largely applicable only to me.

In my marriage, I cannot cheat. Carol doesn't have that claim on me. I have a group of female friends that we all collectively refer to as "my harem". One of them I'd count as my best friend. For the record, these are actually friends. I have never slept with another woman nor do I have the desire to do so. If that changes at some point in the future I can... but that's not the here and now.

Now... if for some reason Carol got concerned about that best friend... even though in theory she has no right to that and even though in theory I make all the choices in our marriage... including who I sleep with... That would be a vast red flag to me. I'd be severing contact with that best friend and the friend would be entirely and totally behind that move. As I said, I make all the decisions and that would absolutely be MY choice.

These are my words to Carol, _"You are the most important thing in the world to me."_ As a man of integrity, I expect my actions to align with my words. If Carol is feeling threatened or vulnerable, I expect myself to protect her and nurture her... period. _So do my friends._ For me, this is not about what's "fair" or what's a "real threat". It's about having integrity and having a grim determination to make my love words be more than just pretty speech.

So *I* reach for the "no further contact" answer because it is the only answer which can possibly make me not a liar given the words that have come out of my own lips. I have no idea what promises and general "love words" your wife has said to you nor do I know how seriously you two treat such things. I have no opinion on how you ought to treat them. For us, they are life & death issues.


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## Gabriel

Jeff/BC said:


> I agree. Nothing is the "end-all". My marriage is not your marriage or even remotely like most people's marriage so my viewpoints are just that... my viewpoints -- largely applicable only to me.
> 
> In my marriage, I cannot cheat. Carol doesn't have that claim on me. I have a group of female friends that we all collectively refer to as "my harem". One of them I'd count as my best friend. For the record, these are actually friends. I have never slept with another woman nor do I have the desire to do so. *If that changes at some point in the future I can... but that's not the here and now.*
> Now... if for some reason Carol got concerned about that best friend... even though in theory she has no right to that and even though in theory I make all the choices in our marriage... including who I sleep with... That would be a vast red flag to me. I'd be severing contact with that best friend and the friend would be entirely and totally behind that move. As I said, I make all the decisions and that would absolutely be MY choice.
> 
> These are my words to Carol, _"You are the most important thing in the world to me."_ As a man of integrity, I expect my actions to align with my words. If Carol is feeling threatened or vulnerable, I expect myself to protect her and nurture her... period. _So do my friends._ For me, this is not about what's "fair" or what's a "real threat". It's about having integrity and having a grim determination to make my love words be more than just pretty speech.
> 
> So *I* reach for the "no further contact" answer because it is the only answer which can possibly make me not a liar given the words that have come out of my own lips. I have no idea what promises and general "love words" your wife has said to you nor do I know how seriously you two treat such things. I have no opinion on how you ought to treat them. For us, they are life & death issues.


This bold part is exactly why I completely disagree with all of it. Opposite sex friends are fine in a great marriage, but once the marriage is compromised and the seeds of doubt are planted, people begin to explore their other options, and they start with those closest to them. 

But you are right that every marriage is different. With people I know and have seen, it just doesn't work in the long run. Maybe for a matter of years, but not forever. Long marriages have highs and lows, sometime really low lows. This is when these friends can so easily become more. Just my take. To each his own.


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## Jeff/BC

Gabriel said:


> This bold part is exactly why I completely disagree with all of it. Opposite sex friends are fine in a great marriage, but once the marriage is compromised and the seeds of doubt are planted, people begin to explore their other options, and they start with those closest to them.


No... "people" don't... not this "people." Not Carol. That's what having honor is all about, right?

But I suppose in general I agree with you. It's just that Carol and I do so many things that would be entirely disastrous should our marriage become compromised that this just becomes one more of many. We do not have a safe marriage. We do not want one.


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## Entropy3000

SkyIsBlue said:


> Not to get too sarcastic, but I'm surprised no one has asked if my wife is fat and ugly.


You are still learning about this stuff. The more you learn the more you realize you don't know squat. It is great when we can learn from others mistakes. 

No one asked because it does not matter. Predators pick the weak out of the herd for one thing. This guy is hoping you guys have problems and he is there to take advantage. 



> The thing is, the guy has made a lot of comments about wanting a longer term relationship and not being someone who likes to sleep around. He had a taste of a great relationship once, but it went south and he regrets it. *That's part of why they started talking in the first place.* So if he hasn't engaged my wife in any sexual way, and he certainly hasn't engaged her in an deeply emotional way (as in wanting a LTR with her), I'm not sure what to make of him.


Ding, ding ding we have a winner.
*Trust me when I tell you he has told her he is looking for a woman just like her and her husband is very lucky. He has not found anyone ( else ) yet. He will always be there for her as well. *

You have provided a lot of reasons why your wife likes to keep him in her life. He very well may be her backup plan. Why is this guy not out striking up relationships with non married women? You do the math. He is investing in your wife.

The below still concerns me. You too of course.



> Over a year ago, my wife had a flirty "affair" that never went beyond a few kisses with the OM. There weren't any deep emotions attached (no husband bashing, no sharing of intimate thoughts, etc), but she enjoyed the ego-boosting and exciting, immature "games." The man is now long gone and I don't believe there's any real threat from him. I have verified things to the best of my conversational and technical ability (after heeding some advice on these boards).


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## AFEH

Entropy3000 said:


> You are still learning about this stuff. The more you learn the more you realize you don't know squat. It is great when we can learn from others mistakes.
> 
> No one asked because it does not matter. Predators pick the weak out of the herd for one thing. This guy is hoping you guys have problems and he is there to take advantage.
> 
> 
> 
> Ding, ding ding we have a winner.
> *Trust me when I tell you he has told her he is looking for a woman just like her and her husband is very lucky. He has not found anyone ( else ) yet. He will always be there for her as well. *
> 
> You have provided a lot of reasons why your wife likes to keep him in her life. He very well may be her backup plan. Why is this guy not out striking up relationships with non married women? You do the math. He is investing in your wife.
> 
> The below still concerns me. You too of course.


The OP is in total denial. Plus he's being ever so "clever" in his responses. I know this, I know that.

He even thinks just because he has women friends that he's not attracted to that his wife's situation with OM is exactly the same as his. How crazy and naive is that!


Only one way for this to go. Unless someone's got a 4x2 or maybe even a 8x4.

He's gut is screaming at him and he's in panic about friends and boundaries and still he hasn't seen the light.


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## Entropy3000

AFEH said:


> The OP is in total denial. Plus he's being ever so "clever" in his responses. I know this, I know that.
> 
> He even thinks just because he has women friends that he's not attracted to that his wife's situation with OM is exactly the same as his. How crazy and naive is that!
> 
> 
> Only one way for this to go. Unless someone's got a 4x2 or maybe even a 8x4.
> 
> He's gut is screaming at him and he's in panic about friends and boundaries and still he hasn't seen the light.


Eventually Darwin engages.


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## SkyIsBlue

Entropy3000 said:


> Ding, ding ding we have a winner.
> *Trust me when I tell you he has told her he is looking for a woman just like her and her husband is very lucky. He has not found anyone ( else ) yet. He will always be there for her as well. *


Interesting. I've seen every message and text they've exchanged, and I sat in the room with my wife the one time they spoke by telephone. This did not come up. Not once. Not anything like it.

I guess there's a chance they discussed this when they were together the one time, and never, ever touched on it again. I guess. Seems like a pretty poor way to pursue a woman.



> You have provided a lot of reasons why your wife likes to keep him in her life. He very well may be her backup plan. Why is this guy not out striking up relationships with non married women? You do the math. He is investing in your wife.


As far as I know this guy could be out pursuing other women. If he's investing in my wife, he's doing a poor job of it. The one time they talked by phone he was asking her advice on how to get his woman back. Next you'll tell me this was a strategy? 



AFEH said:


> The OP is in total denial. Plus he's being ever so "clever" in his responses. I know this, I know that.
> 
> He even thinks just because he has women friends that he's not attracted to that his wife's situation with OM is exactly the same as his. How crazy and naive is that!


I'm not trying to be clever, so I appreciate it if you wouldn't be condescending. If you're convinced I'm an idiot, in denial, and beyond help, just stop posting to me. Showing off to others by pointing and laughing isn't very helpful to anyone.

Moreover, if I was in denial, why would I post here in the first place. Do you think I have some agenda to prove you wrong? Honestly, I would love to prove you wrong (wouldn't you love it too?), but I'm not so stupid to think your scenarios could never apply to me. The whole reason I posted was because I've been trying to decide whether my gut feelings are a result of being hurt before and overly sensitive, and then how to go about establishing boundaries while being realistic. 

Finally, you completely missed the point about my female friends. It's not that I think our scenarios are exactly the same, it's that I want to be in a marriage where this is possible. Since I happen to also want to be married to my wife, I'd like to try to make it work. If it can't or won't work, so be it. Again--not in denial or naive. Just hopeful.


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## SkyIsBlue

Gabriel said:


> This bold part is exactly why I completely disagree with all of it. Opposite sex friends are fine in a great marriage, but once the marriage is compromised and the seeds of doubt are planted, people begin to explore their other options, and they start with those closest to them.
> 
> But you are right that every marriage is different. With people I know and have seen, it just doesn't work in the long run. Maybe for a matter of years, but not forever. Long marriages have highs and lows, sometime really low lows. This is when these friends can so easily become more. Just my take. To each his own.


I think you make a great point here. I tried to bring it up before, but probably failed. As I've mentioned, I'm very sensitive to how my marriage is going, and to possible threats. I haven't seen any other red flags about our marriage. We're financially stable, spend most of our free time together, laugh, act like best friends, and have what I think is a mutually successful sex life. Has it always been rainbows and unicorns? No. But I'm not seeing any "slow fading" or other relationship flags that would make you think my wife was vulnerable. Again, that's kind of why I'm posting in the first place.


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## Entropy3000

SkyIsBlue said:


> Interesting. I've seen every message and text they've exchanged, and I sat in the room with my wife the one time they spoke by telephone. This did not come up. Not once. Not anything like it.
> 
> I guess there's a chance they discussed this when they were together the one time, and never, ever touched on it again. I guess. Seems like a pretty poor way to pursue a woman.
> 
> As far as I know this guy could be out pursuing other women. If he's investing in my wife, he's doing a poor job of it. The one time they talked by phone he was asking her advice on how to get his woman back. Next you'll tell me this was a strategy?
> 
> I'm not trying to be clever, so I appreciate it if you wouldn't be condescending. If you're convinced I'm an idiot, in denial, and beyond help, just stop posting to me. Showing off to others by pointing and laughing isn't very helpful to anyone.
> 
> Moreover, if I was in denial, why would I post here in the first place. Do you think I have some agenda to prove you wrong? Honestly, I would love to prove you wrong (wouldn't you love it too?), but I'm not so stupid to think your scenarios could never apply to me. The whole reason I posted was because I've been trying to decide whether my gut feelings are a result of being hurt before and overly sensitive, and then how to go about establishing boundaries while being realistic.
> 
> Finally, you completely missed the point about my female friends. It's not that I think our scenarios are exactly the same, it's that I want to be in a marriage where this is possible. Since I happen to also want to be married to my wife, I'd like to try to make it work. If it can't or won't work, so be it. Again--not in denial or naive. Just hopeful.


If it was said it was said eye to eye with complete sincerity. 

If you think everything is fine then why the concern over this guy? Why not let them meet up?

I am not sure why you are posting. Maybe to have some folks to debate with. Maybe somewhere beneath the facade you are listening.

There is only one way to be certain about your gut feelings. Ignore them.

She is a witch if she floats. She is innocent if she sinks and drowns. This is a lose - lose game. So we are here telling you that you should listen to your instincts. The information you have provided has proved your gut feelings as very plausible to many of us. 

Life is full of risks vs. rewards. You must choose. When the risks are too high, I err on the side of caution. We can only share with you our feelings and experiences based on what you have provided to us. We are saying this is high risk in our opinions. That the downside is not worth risking. I mean we can play Russian Roulette and have a 5/6 chance of not blowing our brains out the first go around. Keep playing that game. You already dodged one bullet. Why go back for another pull?

You really have no idea about this guy. He is investing in your wife. He sounds like someone who could be around a very long time waiting his turn. But if you are happy with your wife investing time in him then go for it brother. It is human nature for "wanting to be right". But sincerely I would just like you to make the right decision. Whatever that is.


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## sandc

I think E3K has pretty much summed it up OP. Now, what are you going to do?


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## CandieGirl

...like a spider, spinning its perfect web, lying in wait...

IMHO, that's what I'm seeing from this other guy. Whatever you choose to do (or not do) is, well...up to you!


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## Jeff/BC

COguy said:


> No. Wrong. Errrrrgh!
> 
> That's not a dilemma. Her feeling trapped isn't a consequence of you setting boundaries.


I'd like to reinforce this point. Trust me on this, I set a LOT more boundaries for Carol than most people here. It's the nature of our marriage. But Carol doesn't feel "trapped" by them because she sees it as appropriate that I do so and she fits comfortably inside the boundaries I set. She sees it as benevolent.

It is not the setting of boundaries which causes the trapped feeling. It's a mismatch between the boundary and the person's expectation of personal freedom. I'm not allowed to drive at 300km down the highway. I don't feel particularly trapped by that boundary. I kind of approve of it.


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## Shwagulous

This thread almost makes me trigger....
I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said over and over again here. The thing that I just can't get past is SkyIsBlue's issue of worrying if he comes across as "controlling" considering the mini EA. My wife had a "mini EA", and from that point in my opinion, she gave up any "right" to feel like I am controlling when it comes to the opposite sex. My response to her were I in your shoes would be "Too damn bad!!!". I, like many here, was a lot like you. I was oh so trusting, and didn't want to been seen like an ogre, because I am not an ogre. It isn't in my nature. The mini EA changed my nature, I suppose. I'm surprised it didn't change yours.

After the EA, opposite sex friends are just a flat out NO! As in FOREVER, NO!!!!!!!! Just the same as "social" drinking is a no for alcoholics. "I promise honey, me and my whiskey are *just friends*" lol 

Setting HARD boundaries with my wife has gone a long way in helping us R. She accepts them both because she knows that she screwed up, and more importantly because I found my balls, and self respect, and she respects me now. Within the boundaries, I am a sweet lovable fuzzball. Outside the boundaries.... God help you!!! When setting up the boundaries, communication is key. Make it exceedingly clear where the line is. On the happy side of the boundary... happy, loving marriage. On the bad side... scorched earth!!!! That to me is the natural consequence of an EA / PA however "mini" it was. Otherwise, we'll see you in the CWI forum at some point. I sure hope not though!!


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