# Awakening My Wife's Desire



## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

I have been on a sex hiatus with my wife for 9 months and much to my surprise it has been an incredibly positive experience for me and for our marriage. Don't get me wrong I'm still incredibly attracted to her and always thinking about ravishing her but this was something that needed to be done. I expect us to be getting back on track in the next few weeks so I wanted to hear from anyone who has experienced a positive awakening of their own or their wife's sexual desire after an extended dormant period.

A bit of background - we are in our 40's, married 20+ years with kids all still at home. We have always had a really strong marriage and with many of our close friends and siblings going through ugly divorces or dealing with very strained marriages we are fortunate to still get along so well and enjoy each other's company as we do. We have a great family life with our kids that is very special and important to us but as so often is the case, somewhere along the line the sex went stale and instead of being all about fun and pleasure, I let it become a source of stress, pressure and obligation for my wife. We both independently came to the conclusion that we needed to take a break from sex in order to get things back on track and here we are nine months later - never thought it would take this long but it has. I have used the time to do a great deal of reading, learning and self counseling and feel like I have grown tremendously over the past year. Amazing what can happen when you stop blaming other people for your shortcomings, hold yourself accountable and decide to do something about it. Hard medicine but well worth it. [As an aside, I would advise any men reading this who are in a HD/LD not having enough sex type of situation to do the same type of work before doing anything rash.]

Our marriage is stronger than ever and we had plenty to test us over the past year with family related issues we had to deal with. After some pretty heavy dialogue along the way about the state of our relationship including the implications of divorce on our kids and discussing the possibility of an open marriage (yes we are pretty progressive by relative TAM standards) we have essentially ruled all that out, agreed we are lucky to still love each other as we do and now just need to get busy again  She knows I am ready to start things back up but she's not quite there yet. Even though she knows I have made some really positive changes to my behavior and my mindset and have given her all the space she needs to start feeling good about sex again, I think in the back of her mind she fears that the stress and pressure she used to feel is going to resurface once we start up again. I'm waiting for her reptile brain to kick in and spring her to life but so far the strong rational brain is preventing the animal in her from coming out to play ...

Again I would love to hear from anyone who has gone through something similar and managed to come out the other end at a much better place.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

GoodFunLife said:


> I'm waiting for her *reptile brain* to kick in


 @john117 did you get a new user name?


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

I truly hope it works out for you but I would think a few weeks or months of of taking sex off the table would work. But 9 months? To me it sounds like your wife likes the lack of sex and is in no hurry to start again.

I think the marriage is stronger because she no longer has to worry about sex. You told her you were ready but she still says no.

And it's odd because I was told by my marriage counselor and have read it here that if you just maintain non-sexual intimacy for a week, you'll be able to reignite sexual passion. 9 months? I think the flame went out.

Maybe I'm wrong.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

Just to add... you mentioned in another post that the hiatus was supposed to last a couple of months. Fine. Again it's now 9 months. Her sex interest isn't coming back.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Lolz. Had me going till the "strong marriage" part 

To the original poster... Apathy or withdrawal do not fix issues. Human memory is not like a USB stick that can be formatted. What you have now works for her, so you're stuck on two different paradigms.

Start by figuring out why she feels pressured and why she dislikes sex, and to what extent. Only by knowing that you can move forward. If she went without sex for 9 months she can and likely will go for another 9. Call her out and see what happens.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

GoodFunLife said:


> .... I expect us to be getting back on track in the next few weeks so I wanted to hear from anyone who has experienced a positive awakening of their own or their wife's sexual desire after an extended dormant period.
> 
> ...We have a great family life with our kids that is very special and important to us but as so often is the case, somewhere along the line the sex went stale and instead of being all about fun and pleasure, I let it become a source of stress, pressure and obligation for my wife. *We both independently came to the conclusion that we needed to take a break from sex in order to get things back on track and here we are nine months later* - never thought it would take this long but it has. I have used the time to do a *great deal of reading, learning and self counseling and feel like I have grown tremendously* over the past year. Amazing what can happen when you stop blaming other people for your shortcomings, hold yourself accountable and decide to do something about it. Hard medicine but well worth it.
> 
> ...


A few serious thoughts. Go slow. She will fear backsliding and will you, it will take time to build trust. You might want to explore in your "go slow-reconnecting time" to start with sensate focus exercises.

Which books have you read and more importantly, which books has she read? 

What you describe sounds like a good approach (as you said) for an HD/LD couple to work on healing their problems.

However, in my case it took a Sex Therapist to help my W and I negotiate some gridlock issues. As you move slowly, you might want to explore with your W the idea of working with a Sex Therapist. The one we had expedited the changes we had started.

Part of the desire to work with an ST was my timetable for change. Another part was that the ST became the lighting rod for my wife to rebel against when my W didn't want to change and revert back to old habits. The ST became the Bad Cop and I became the Good Cop providing my wife with post session support, soothing her, bonding with her, while the ST did the pushing. It was very worthwhile and worth every penny.

Remember rebuilding a marriage takes two and it is a marathon, not a sprint. It took years to drift apart, it will take at least a year to drift together and more for the trust to be rebuilt.

My library contains:

MW Davis Sex Starved Marriage
Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy
Chapmans 5 Languages of Love
Sue Johnson's Hold Me Tight
David Schnarch Passionate Marriage, and Crucible
Ester Perel's Mating in Captivity
Klieger & Nedelman, Still Sexy After All These Years,
Gottmans, The Art & Science of Love,

and some more.

I would be curious as to which books helped you the most or which activities suggested by which books and which books and activities were the most significant for your W.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Chris Taylor said:


> I truly hope it works out for you but I would think a few weeks or months of of taking sex off the table would work. But 9 months? To me it sounds like your wife likes the lack of sex and is in no hurry to start again.
> 
> I think the marriage is stronger because she no longer has to worry about sex. You told her you were ready but she still says no.
> 
> ...


Sure looks like this is the case. She doesn't want him and doesn't want to start it back again. Was this whole hiatus a covert contract? Did she know you were giving her a break with the expectation that it start again? Would you say she is the user/consumer of the relationship? What does she bring to the table? Why are you still there if she doesn't want you sexually? Do you support her? Is that why she keeps you around?


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## committed_guy (Nov 22, 2011)

On the advice of our "christian" counselor my wife and I tried the hiatus thing. It killed my desire for my wife and we haven't recovered since. We do still have sex occasionally (about once every 6 weeks) but only when she initiates, and I'm ok with that.

I think the only person that can awaken desire is themselves. They have to want it and work through whatever issues that are preventing them from enjoying sex. When my wife and I were going through our rough patch several years ago I did a lot of soul searching and maturing. I learned how to take responsibility for my own feelings, etc. Part of that was honestly telling her sorry for those things I did. After that I was ready to reunite with her (physically and emotionally) however she was not. She never did the cleanup on her side of the street. The difference now is I no longer play her games. My wife was never interested in taking responsibility for her own growth, admit her wrongdoings and become a better person. She just wanted to blame me for everything and never got past her own hurt. 

That said, I'll agree with the others that a sexual hiatus, like everything else in life, is entirely dependent on what the couple wants. If you are a Bible believing Christian than 1 Cor 7 applies where a couple should not refuse the other except by mutual consent and for a short period. Personally I think this is good advice even for non-Christian marriages. To me sex is the glue and what makes our relationship unique to everyone else in the world.

Regarding an Open Marriage, everything I have read on this topic said that if the relationship is otherwise strong and you have good communication then OM can be amazing. I am certainly not condemning anyone who chooses this lifestyle but from what I have read if you already have intimacy issues in your marriage OM isn't going to help and will likely harm. Good luck!


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

I'm also not quite sure how abstaining for 9+ months helps to bring you closer... Unless you mean closer to your wife's way of life.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

GoodFunLife said:


> Even though she knows I have made some really positive changes to my behavior and my mindset and have given her all the space she needs to start feeling good about sex again, I think in the back of her mind *she fears that the stress and pressure *she used to feel is going to resurface once we start up again.


I've said this before and I'll say it again... Women who are attracted to and in love with their husbands *enjoy having sex with their husbands.* They don't fear "stress and pressure" at the thought of sex.

For whatever reason, she's not into you any more. In any case, nine months is way too long to abstain. Instead of rekindling the fire, I'm afraid the fire has smoldered out.



GoodFunLife said:


> She knows I am ready to start things back up but she's not quite there yet...
> 
> I'm waiting for her reptile brain to kick in and spring her to life but so far the strong rational brain is preventing the animal in her from coming out to play ...


I'm afraid you're going to be waiting a lot longer for her to play, if at all. Her rational brain is not what is preventing her from having sex with you. It's her lack of attraction for you that is preventing it, which is, in fact, quite reptilian.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> I've said this before and I'll say it again... Women who are attracted to and in love with their husbands *enjoy having sex with their husbands.* They don't fear "stress and pressure" at the thought of sex.
> 
> For whatever reason, she's not into you any more. In any case, nine months is way too long to abstain. Instead of rekindling the fire, I'm afraid the fire has smoldered out.
> 
> ...


I agree. It's harsh to face, but I think your wife has lost attraction for whatever reason. Good to hear you're working on yourself though. I'm assuming that is also in regard to fitness and physical appearance? 

What Happy said - A wife that finds you attractive will F you, as many TAM women in long term marriages will attest. Lots of ladies here that are still attracted to their hubbies, regardless of life's ups and downs. Excuses (kids, work, stress, etc) is gunk that SHE lets into her brain, and is her rationalization for starving you of a very important and necessary male need. 

That's just my opinion though. If you're truly happy, then I'm wrong, and I'm happy for you.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Not necessarily because they're not into you... If she has the requisite upbringing that is generally not so much into the recreational aspect of sex, then she's not interested in sex period, not with him, not with Brad Pitt, not with anyone. 

Add to that the ability to twist words as any counselor can and you'll find talking with her is difficult at best. I would try the following:

Set up some time with her in a neutral place where she can't freak out and talk to her frankly. But ask her, if she had a client (male) whose wife was not playing the part, just like she's not, what would she recommend? 

(Of course the ever devious Dr. John here would send a trusted male friend to her as a client and present a near identical story and play along for a couple sessions ...

I don't discount the chance of "she's not into him" but generally speaking it ain't happening unless there's a significant difference in looks and / or age. If she's 45 and looks 30 and he's 50 and looks 65 yea, but generally speaking, not.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

I will sum this marriage clearly and succinctly 

You may get along.....but this marriage is in very bad shape.

55


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## thread the needle (May 4, 2015)

I am very sorry to say I think you are deluding yourself. 

Same problem 9 months later. 

So you worked on yourself. Cool in itself but ....

It didn't work. 

Since you asked, I have written how I turned my marriage around in other posts with specific titles


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

I understand the naysayers' skepticism and in normal circumstances I would agree that nine months is an eternity and that I'd be delusional to think her attraction is ever coming back. But without getting into details just know that what we've been through as a couple and as a family over the past six months goes way beyond sex and has been the kind of experience that thoroughly tests your relationship and we have come through it as strong as you could imagine. 

The cynic will say - if it was such a strong emotional bonding experience and you have such a great relationship then why isn't she dying to have sex with you?? I don't have a good answer for that other than to acknowledge that she has been relieved to not be feeling the pressure and obligation she used to feel and the raw attraction is still not there. I made the decision to not push her on the sex topic and risk adding to her stress level with everything else we had going on so we agreed to keep it off the table until things calmed down, which brings us to now ... I certainly didn't expect it to take 9 months when we started the hiatus but I also wasn't expecting the other challenges that popped up along the way. 

I know the only way this is going to work out the way I hope it does is if it happens organically and her attraction comes back naturally from within her. I know I can't force her to be attracted to me so my decision was pretty straightforward - use the downtime to work on me, get my own house in order, take accountability for previous shortcomings and be the most attractive version of me I can be. [quick aside - we are both healthy, very fit and financially secure so this was not an issue of my having let myself go - I just let my leadership lapse and got too needy and selfish about our sex life and over time that eroded her attraction and sexual trust.]

So If I push her to be sexual when she's not ready, she will inevitably feel the same pressure she used to feel and I have no interest in going back to that. And if she is truly so shut down that she only wants a platonic friendship with me, I will make my decision whether I want to remain in a sexless relationship once I know if that is the case. We have discussed the possibility of a sex therapist if this doesn't happen on its own and I agree that it may take a neutral third party to help us break through the issues that are holding her back. Despite all the views to the contrary and the sounds of it just being blind optimism, I really believe deep down she wants this to work out and is willing to do the work to make it happen. I will soon find out.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I have tried to not summon he who must not be named - as a near 3 year TAM member I remember him well.

He did the same, took intimacy off the table. He had a "plan". He went something like 2-3 years then found out his hot wife was in a PA. 

I can only think of one case where this approach would make some sense, and that is only when the withholding partner is using intimacy as a control. Men tend to do it as well as women. 

This does not sound like it is the case with you. 

I suggest you talk to her directly and concisely about this. If she feels there's a problem you can work together to address it. 

If she goes Fa La Laaaa i don't have a problem then start worrying.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

Completely agree. This is going to resolve itself one way or the other soon starting with a very direct conversation.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

Your "relationship" may be strong but your marriage is in the dumps. 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## jsmart (Mar 14, 2015)

john117 said:


> I have tried to not summon he who must not be named - as a near 3 year TAM member I remember him well.
> 
> He did the same, took intimacy off the table. *He had a "plan". He went something like 2-3 years then found out his hot wife was in a PA. *
> 
> ...


9 months and she still not willing? Have you made sure there isn't another get her best? I've read of so many woman in long term affairs on LS. These woman hide it well.

If you're confident that there is no one else, then it has to be about attraction. You can't just read books and expect her to be hot for you. She'll want a strong confident man that leads an exciting life. 

Are you hitting the gym HARD?
Are your hygiene, clothes, hair, ETC on point?
Do you have male friends that you get together with and do manly $hit with?
Are you helping at home with some chores? 
Are you taking her on dates?
Surprising her with small gifts?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I'm not the original poster but my hair is always on point 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/showthread.php?p=14611537


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

GoodFunLife said:


> which brings us to now ... I certainly didn't expect it to take 9 months when we started the hiatus.
> 
> ... be the most attractive version of me I can be.


*Apparently she is now attracted to the asexual version of you. *Keep up the great work! 

Speaking seriously it sounds as if you have gone from one extreme to the other, this is not healthy:

(A) You were sexually needy, she did not understand your desire, and eventually came to feel used, abused, and inadequate. 

(B) You somehow became asexual (or self sufficient) which reaffirms her initial thoughts that your desire in the past had NOTHING TO DO WITH HER!!!!!!

If the two of you were working towards a healthier relationship, she would see your sacrifice, and be very willing (if not eager) to talk about resuming an active sex life with you. Now if she felt you were abusing her by forcing/coercing her to have sex previously, you will not get anywhere until you acknowledge that and encourage her to show you how she needs for you to be intimate with her. BOTH (A) and (B) above will only makes things worse if that is what happened. 

Good luck, 
Badsanta


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The operative word is "if the two of you were working....".


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

You have some very good ideas and thoughts but also some that are very wrong.

You know that "pushing" for sex in a needy way did not work out so well for you (Good). Your onclusion: act attractively and wait (Bad).

You left out a logical though process of how to set the expectation that a marriage needs to be sexual without looking needy and weak.

You claim rightly that you lost your ability to lead, but then inexplicably decide not to excersize any leadership in the area of creating a sexual marriage.

Your wife knows that when you want sex, her marriage is stressful, and when you don't want sex, her marriage is enjoyable. So how exactly does that make her want to have sex with you?

You have to make the marriage the one where having sex with each other is the enjoyable marriage.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

That's a recursive definition. If her mindset is such that she feels great about not having sex yet having her needs met, that needs to end. Not in a 180 type approach but with something a bit more drastic.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

You guys have made some great points - thank you for the thoughts. 

When I initiated the hiatus, I made the decision that the best way to lead us into a mutually enjoyable sexual marriage was to take some time off so we could start fresh. I still think at the time that was a wise decision but I realize I have let too much time pass without enforcing the importance of a happy sexual marriage. She has become too comfortable in her happy stress-free sexless state and I have not been able to muster the leadership to pull us out of it yet. 

I know she's not cheating as someone suggested might be the case. She's just gone dormant. Sex is not important to her right now and she believes it's normal for long term couples to go through ups and downs and for attraction to fade away. She has a very matter of fact perspective about sex and doesn't like when I make too big a deal of it. Most of her friends have meager sex lives and she just thinks that's the way it is.

Whenever I tried to shift us beyond plain vanilla into more excitement and adventure that I hoped would lead to more pleasure for her, it rubbed her the wrong way and made her feel inadequate, like she wasn't good enough. This is a big part of what originally led to her feeling stress and pressure and started to kill the attraction.

Someone asked about potential attraction killers and I don't think that is the issue - I'm actually in great shape (lean and fit, workout hard 5X/week), on trend with clothes and style, do as much around the house and with the kids as any dad I know and enjoy every bit of it, we go out to dinner together whenever we have the chance ...It has kind of become a married version of the friend zone.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

She may simply believe that people "her age" don't need sex, ergo...

Play the scenario of what would she tell a client with the same dilemma. That should be a good wake up call.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GFL,
Let us know how it goes. I've never seen anyone pull this off without a plan. At this point you really ought take her temperature. This is one approach: 

Wife, I'm going to schedule an appointment with a sex therapist, I need to know you're committed to working WITH me to reboot that part of the marriage. 

Any response other than:
- I am committed, go ahead and schedule it. 
Or
- We don't need that. Let's get in bed early tonight - big smile

Means you are currently pushing on a string. 

If you get the typical run around, you will need a real plan. 

Any talk about how you feel will be perceived as an attempt to create compliance through guilt. It not only will fail to create compliance, it WILL decrease respect. 




GoodFunLife said:


> You guys have made some great points - thank you for the thoughts.
> 
> When I initiated the hiatus, I made the decision that the best way to lead us into a mutually enjoyable sexual marriage was to take some time off so we could start fresh. I still think at the time that was a wise decision but I realize I have let too much time pass without enforcing the importance of a happy sexual marriage. She has become too comfortable in her happy stress-free sexless state and I have not been able to muster the leadership to pull us out of it yet.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Personal,
QFT. This type of dead accurate analysis/advice is what makes TAM a great place.

I'd love to have access to some meta data on these 'talks' folks in sexless marriages have. My theory is you can tell what's what solely based on speaker word count ratios. The unsuccessful talk has a 5 to 1 or higher ratio of the HD talking compared to the LD. 

In a successful talk the HD would do at the very most an equal amount of talking. 

Just the word count. 



Personal said:


> @jsmart asked, anyway although it's nice of you to answer those questions. Since it is a none issue in this instance, it is somewhat telling that you will readily deal with the low hanging fruit and answer questions on aesthetics while ignoring things of greater importance. I will also add that it is foolish to think that sex ought to be the reward for being a dad and doing chores (since all of those things ought to be done for their own sake anyway).
> 
> If you were single or divorced you would still find yourself having to do chores and parent as required as well. So doing your fair share of domestic and parenting duties is not doing your wife any favours. Likewise sex itself ought to to be its own reward, if the sex is enjoyed by those sharing that sex more sex is the usual result.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The metric is irrelevant - I can have a 50-50 conversation with Kim Jung Un about his hair style and the end result will be the same.

What matters is the meaning behind the words, any actions to be taken, and consistent follow through. 

Mrs. OP is a marital family counselor, the probability that Mr. OP will get any meaningful words out if her if she's not interested is about the same as me convincing my cat to eat minced food. Not good.

Personal's list needs to add a basic question or two:

- is this type of intimate life acceptable to her (clearly yes, but there's some value in her saying it with a straight face)

- why? Cultural reasons, stereotypes, resentment, too tired, moths, mice, too old, etc.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

Personal - thank you for very constructive thoughts. Let me try to reply -

I figured out a long time ago the needy nice guy covert contract game and stopped that cold turkey as soon as I realized what I was doing. 

1. The perpetual "few weeks from now" has run its course. I will know in the next several days whether she is game. 

2. No covert contract. It was my idea to initiate the hiatus. 

3. Yes she has always expected that we start up again. The issue for her as I mentioned in my last post has been insecurity about whether she can fulfill my expectations. 

4. She is definitely not the user/consumer in the relationship. I am the wage earner but she is a ridiculously good mother and I value her contributions immensely. 

5. She is the total package - smart, deep, fun, sexy ... 

6. I'm still here because there is so much more to our relationship and family than sex. It's incredibly important but it's not everything. 

7. Yes I support her but that's not why she sticks around. She loves me deeply. 

8. I don't need to share details - it has been a combination of difficult medical and other challenging family circumstances that created really difficult situations for us. 

9. Good point - I am ready to try something different. 

10. Not much longer. I will know very soon which direction this is going. 

11. I am definitely not happy that I am not having sex with my wife. I am decidedly not asexual. 

12. We can debate how wise it was to discontinue sex. I still think it was the right decision at the time. 

13. I applaud you on 4-6X / week that you both enjoy. Good for you - I am envious. And yes I agree if both don't enjoy it we're not doing it. 

14. In hindsight you are absolutely right - better to make vanilla as enjoyable as possible for her before trying to move on to more. 

What I'm going to do next is suggest a good time for us to have sex and make it as enjoyable for her as I possibly can. Build it back one brick at a time.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

The pressure you are getting here on TAM to defend and prove yourself is probably similar to the pressure to have sex your wife felt for many years. Please don't start the sex back up by putting more pressure on her because you are feeling pressured to do so from this site!

Go back and read Young at Heart's reply to you. And then go make an appointment with a sex therapist immediately before you do anything with your wife. Your wife has already expressed she has some serious concerns that the pressure will start back up - and here you are ready to start the pressure right back up - "I will know in the next several days whether she is game" How far have you come???

STOP!!! Go find a sex therapists and let them guide your wife to WANT to have sex with you!! Let them guide both of you. You think you have it figured out on your own, but IMO, you still have work to do on yourself - and I think it is going to take a professional for the both of you to fix this.

IMO, you are on the verge of blowing it all. Do not, I repeat DO NOT try to start the sex back up by pressuring her to start it up - you will be right back to square one if you do!!! And do not put a two day time limit on this. I realize some will say - its been 9 months - but it hasn't really, because of all the issues. Besides, just cause you are ready and you think you have the answers now, does not mean she is or does. 

I am not saying, give her indefinitely - but I am saying to pull a professional in to guide this process so its done right this time. I think she still has some unresolved issues to work on - as do you!!!

In the mean time - continue to work on yourself - and if she initiates - go for it - but please, do not backtrack and push her into it before she is ready!! And if after working with a professional, you find out she may never be ready again - then you will have some decisions to make. 

But for now the goal is that she has sex with you again only because she wants to have sex with you again - and for no other reason!! It needs to come from her desire to do it - not yours, nor anyone elses!


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

Do you ever just game your wife? You know, treat her just as you did when you were courting her? Being playful, lightly swatting her ass, teasing her, being a cheeky devil when you talk with her, sneaking some kisses on her neck, touching her a lot as you talk with her? Do you scoop her by the waist and look her deeply in the eye? 

These kinds of things should never stop, but often do in marriage after a time.

Do you both sleep naked? It helps. My SO and I have a mutual rule: no pants in the bed. We chant it as we laugh and pants each other before bed.


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## New_Beginnings (Nov 16, 2015)

I respect a man, who sees placing effort into changing what wasn't working beforehand and finally hearing his wife. I applaud you, although 9 months does sound like quite the number.

I personally could go without sex much longer than my husband (as I have hormonal imbalance). I am 30yr old and very attracted to my husband. I still recognize his needs and do my best to make time for his needs.

I don't believe an attraction HAS to be gone and or a woman is playing games due to the sex dying down. Yes, I'm sure there's marriages like that but I don't think that's ALWAYS the case. I hope just as you found much about yourself that she grew in other aspects as well, outside of sex. 

I agree with another poster about a sex therapist. If you both managed this long, I would seek professional advice and move forward together on how to better please one another.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

mary35 said:


> The pressure you are getting here on TAM to defend and prove yourself is probably similar to the pressure to have sex your wife felt for many years. Please don't start the sex back up by putting more pressure on her because you are feeling pressured to do so from this site!
> 
> Go back and read Young at Heart's reply to you. And then go make an appointment with a sex therapist immediately before you do anything with your wife. Your wife has already expressed she has some serious concerns that the pressure will start back up - and here you are ready to start the pressure right back up - "I will know in the next several days whether she is game" How far have you come???
> 
> ...


I don't view any of the feedback I'm getting as pressure to prove or defend myself and I am not rushing into action because of it. We have been discussing starting up again for a while and this is the time we've been pointing toward - after the holidays are over when we get back into regular routine - so I'm definitely not going to pressure her into doing something she's not ready to do, that would be insane and would be a huge step backward ... I am going to let her know I am ready and suggest it as something I would like for us to do if she feels she is ready. Her feedback will be very telling.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

New_Beginnings said:


> I respect a man, who sees placing effort into changing what wasn't working beforehand and finally hearing his wife. I applaud you, although 9 months does sound like quite the number.
> 
> I personally could go without sex much longer than my husband (as I have hormonal imbalance). I am 30yr old and very attracted to my husband. I still recognize his needs and do my best to make time for his needs.
> 
> ...


Thank you. The work I've been doing on myself needed to be done and I am much better off for having done it. We have discussed seeing a sex therapist together and I agree we both could benefit from it even if she is receptive to starting up again.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

Personal said:


> Here are some more questions.
> 
> What does your wife think about all of this?
> 
> ...


1. My wife doesn't want me to make sex into a big deal and for it to define our relationship. She wants it to be "normal" which for her means a few times a month without any drama.

2. We talk all the time. Kids, work, fitness, politics, friends, family issues ... We are each other's best friends and can talk about just about anything. Sex is truly the only issue where there is awkward tension between us.

3. This has been a source of tension. Physical touch is perhaps my top love language and definitely not hers. I would love nothing more than to have good long hugs and kisses without it having to lead to sex but that is not her thing.

4. I could not agree more. This is exactly how I have been thinking about it - the start of a new sexual relationship that we are going to co-create. I want it to be defined by fun and pleasure that we both enjoy equally and look forward to - not by stress, pressure, guilt & obligation.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

GoodFunLife said:


> I don't view any of the feedback I'm getting as pressure to prove or defend myself and I am not rushing into action because of it. We have been discussing starting up again for a while and this is the time we've been pointing toward - after the holidays are over when we get back into regular routine - so I'm definitely not going to pressure her into doing something she's not ready to do, that would be insane and would be a huge step backward ... I am going to let her know I am ready and suggest it as something I would like for us to do if she feels she is ready. Her feedback will be very telling.


You have missed my point. There is underlying subtle pressure to have sex, just by the fact that you want it. It is in this statement - "I am going to let her know I am ready and suggest it as something I would like us to do..." "Her feedback will be very telling" is you having expectations, which adds to the pressure. There is no way you can address this issues without her feeling pressure. Do you understand that? No you may not be trying to pressure her - its just inherently there. She thinks you want more than she thinks she can give you and for some reason that is keeping her from wanting to have sex. That's just a fact. 

Her feedback has already BEEN very telling. YOU just don't like what you are hearing. There are still issues for the both of you that need to be addressed. And your addressing them, no matter HOW you do it puts pressure on her. It just does! You want sex - she doesn't at the moment or she would be having sex with you!!! Its just that simple.
The problem is not the pressure - a form of pressure is always going to be there. The real problem is her reaction to the pressure. That is what concerns me. And that is what you should be concerned with, IMO. 

The both of you need to explore why she reacts the way she does about sex. Exploring this issue with a professional doing the guiding can help her create a safe place to figure things out. Your continuing to try to improve yourself and to be a better husband and partner will also help create a safe place for her to figure things out. You are on the right track - I am just saying, don't try to rush the process.

You can fix your side of the equation, but you can't fix her side. She has to do that. I strongly suggest that you both need additional help from a professional so that the fix is permanent and not temporary.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

I'll be honest with you, I don't really believe she loves you. You pay the bills and otherwise get along, so she stays. People in love want and have sex. She is clearly looking for the least she can get away with. And really, most of your words make you sound delusional, desperate and in denial. Best case, you'll get once a month duty sex and a wife who resents you for it.


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## MichelleR (Jan 6, 2016)

I agree with a lot of the others here. The fact that your marriage got so much better after sex was removed from your relationship does not sound good.


You sound like you want to be so careful about not turning her off again. I don't think any husband should have to work THAT hard for his wife to sleep with him. Also nine months is really long! It's like youve re-stablished yourselves as roommates. 

It sounds to me like you're in denial about your issues. I'd try to get the sex going again now (you've waited too long already) and if she's not willing you may have to see this as it is and make some tough decisions.


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## Always Learning (Oct 2, 2013)

What Mary35 is trying to tell you, is that she needs to figure out why your desire for her feels to her as "pressure". That is not normal if she truly loves you. My opinion is that she is not sexually attracted to you. If she were there would be no feelings of "pressure" to have sex with you.

She says that she wants it to be "normal". You need her to define this. When she says a few times a month with no drama, what does she mean, what drama is she talking about? I think she means duty sex to get it out of the way with you just accepting it and staying quiet. Starfish sex!

There shouldn't be any drama in a passionate sexual marriage.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Always Learning said:


> What Mary35 is trying to tell you, is that she needs to figure out why your desire for her feels to her as "pressure". *That is not normal if she truly loves you*. My opinion is that *she is not sexually attracted to you*. If she were there would be no feelings of "pressure" to have sex with you.
> 
> She says that she wants it to be "normal". You need her to define this. When she says a few times a month with no drama, what does she mean, what drama is she talking about? I think she means duty sex to get it out of the way with you just accepting it and staying quiet. Starfish sex!
> 
> There shouldn't be any drama in a passionate sexual marriage.


I agree with what I think you are saying. I do agree that the OP needs to figure out why his wife feels pressure and that his expectations are probably the source of that pressure she feels. 

One of the hardest lessons I needed to learn *and accept* in my Sex Starved Marriage was that my LD wife likes sex, but not as frequently as I do. Also there is not "right" amount of sex in marriage. I don't think that there is a one size fits all definition of normal and I don't think that the OP's wife is not attracted to him. 

Accepting that your wife is LD sounds simple on the surface, but it really isn't for the HD partner. Let me explain.

My wife has told me, "Don't touch me there or I will want to have sex with you." That is LD up close and personal. She likes sex and when aroused enjoys sex. She just doesn't want sex as often as I do. Even though she knows she would enjoy the sex, she just doesn't want sex that much. That doesn't make her wrong or broken, just different than me. 

My wife if given to her own preferences would like sex maybe once a week to once every two weeks. She really likes sex at those times. I need sex more often than that to feel connected to her. A sex therapist helped us negotiate a frequency that can keep both of us happily married to each other.

My wife and I have sex twice a week as a compromise that we can both live with and enjoy. Typically my wife initiates, or I will on occasion (by nonverbal communication) indicate that I would like to have sex with her. 

Typically, three out of the four times in two weeks she will have toe curling orgasms. Typically one time out of four she will have sex because she loves me and wants to use her body to pleasure me and feel that she is a woman who can rock her husbands world, even if it doesn't involve her having an orgasm. I can't define that as duty sex, as she really enjoys giving me pleasure and having us feel connected and cuddle afterwards. 

I love to bring my wife to orgasm, but I know that sometimes she just isn't going to get there no matter how much foreplay or how romantic I might be. Sometimes there is just too much work stress or family stress to allow her to relax to the point that she can orgasm. She knows this even better than I do. I also know that she loves bringing me to orgasm. 

We both recognize that I have a higher sexual desire/need than she does. That doesn't make either of us "normal" it just means we are two different people who have married each other, love each other and need to compromise to build our love.

I think that Mary35 and AlwaysLearning are trying to tell the OP is that sex should be fun, playful and explorative. Sometimes it will curl your/her toes and sometimes it will not. Sometimes you will get leg cramps and have to stop and laugh about it. Sometimes one of you will not orgasm.

That is the way sex should be. THERE SHOULD BE NO PRESSURE TO PERFORM to some arbitrary standard of excellence. 

Ideally, there shouldn't be a strict requirement for frequency. However, for some couples negotiating a schedule or even a frequency that they both agree to can be very important, especially when different levels of sexual desire can cause tension and destructive behavior. Sometimes that negotiation is best helped by an outside party like a sex therapist. 

Ideally marriage should include a lot of unconditional love. That is, you do things for your partner because you love them and not because you expect something in return. When there is unconditional love there are no covert contracts. 

When my wife wants to bring me to orgasm because she loves me unconditionally that is not duty sex, that is making love and bonding with her husband, that is affirming to herself that she is sexual woman and her husband is a sexual being. When I do things for my wife, it is because I love her and want her to feel loved. I try to do things in her love languages (Chapman's 5 Languages of Love) so she feels loved and cherished.


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## Sbrown (Jul 29, 2012)

How do you know she loves you? What does she do for you that she wouldn't do for anyone else? 

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

GoodFunLife said:


> 2. We talk all the time. Kids, work, fitness, politics, friends, family issues ... We are each other's best friends and can talk about just about anything. *Sex is truly the only issue where there is awkward tension between us.*


I once helped my wife rearrange the house and we were moving a bookshelf only to find that I had hidden a "failed" homemade butt plug behind it that I hurt myself a little because it was too big. I completely forgot about it being there, and it even still had some poop on it. While I would describe that situation as "*awkward*," we got past it! Life goes on. 

The difference is that now before we move furniture, she begs me to check for things that she would rather not see just in case I forgot about something else from long ago. I actually make it a point to do this for her and verify that "everything is OK" before we go moving a couch or something. 

What is it YOUR WIFE needs you to do to make things less awkward?

Regards,
Badsanta


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

badsanta said:


> I once helped my wife rearrange the house and we were moving a bookshelf only to find that I had hidden a "failed" homemade butt plug behind it that I hurt myself a little because it was too big. I completely forgot about it being there, and it even still had some poop on it. While I would describe that situation as "*awkward*," we got past it! Life goes on.
> 
> The difference is that now before we move furniture, she begs me to check for things that she would rather not see just in case I forgot about something else from long ago. I actually make it a point to do this for her and verify that "everything is OK" before we go moving a couch or something.
> 
> ...


Hmmm, SMH


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I agree with Mary's post. Sounds like she has been minimizing their sexual footprint for a long, long time. That likely means that for a long time it is something that she at best tolerated and at worst disliked. 

Does she masturbate? Did she ever? Would she be open to using a vibrator? Orgasms are fun. 





mary35 said:


> You have missed my point. There is underlying subtle pressure to have sex, just by the fact that you want it. It is in this statement - "I am going to let her know I am ready and suggest it as something I would like us to do..." "Her feedback will be very telling" is you having expectations, which adds to the pressure. There is no way you can address this issues without her feeling pressure. Do you understand that? No you may not be trying to pressure her - its just inherently there. She thinks you want more than she thinks she can give you and for some reason that is keeping her from wanting to have sex. That's just a fact.
> 
> Her feedback has already BEEN very telling. YOU just don't like what you are hearing. There are still issues for the both of you that need to be addressed. And your addressing them, no matter HOW you do it puts pressure on her. It just does! You want sex - she doesn't at the moment or she would be having sex with you!!! Its just that simple.
> The problem is not the pressure - a form of pressure is always going to be there. The real problem is her reaction to the pressure. That is what concerns me. And that is what you should be concerned with, IMO.
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GFL,
What about non sexual touch? Long hug, no kissing. Lying tangled together while watching tv? 

A mutual back or full body massage? 

Having frequent, non sexual affection that feels GOOD to both of you is a good thing in and of itself. It also creates an association of touch = feels good, which can help your sex life. 




GoodFunLife said:


> 1. My wife doesn't want me to make sex into a big deal and for it to define our relationship. She wants it to be "normal" which for her means a few times a month without any drama.
> 
> 2. We talk all the time. Kids, work, fitness, politics, friends, family issues ... We are each other's best friends and can talk about just about anything. Sex is truly the only issue where there is awkward tension between us.
> 
> ...


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

Whenever our sex life started to get stale, we got it back on track immediately. Sex produces Oxytocin. It is a hormone that emotionally bonds a couple together. The more you have sex, the more you want to. The less you have sex, the less you want to. If we do not have sex for two weeks, it is time to talk to my wife. She knows that if she does not give it to me, I will seek it elsewhere. I have in the past and would do so again. I would not live with a woman without regular sex. If I wanted that I would live with my sister. I love her and she loves me but we do not want to have sex with each other. To me, sex is very important for a healthy relationship. I wish you luck. Hope it works out for you.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

WorkingOnMe said:


> Hmmm, *SMH*


That is your answer to how to make things less awkward for his wife?

"Scratching My Hemorrhoids!" 

I'm bad with abbreviations, so I am not sure if you think "Sex Might Hurt" or even perhaps "Squishy Messy Handjob" or even "Shake'n My Hooters" 

I wish you kids would just learn to ****'n type.

lutflufytlutflkuytfkuygvkuyvkuygvkuygciytfic678rco85o8co87tvo87v59v5o87tuygvkuygv

Badsanta


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## person123 (Jan 12, 2016)

OP, your wife isn't attracted to you. (She may be having an affair, though it doesn't sound like it.)

You should go read Married Man Sex Life Primer. 

I know this will be controversial, but I would recommend marriedredpill on reddit as well. Personally, I scoured the internet and every book I could get my hands on and marriedredpill is the only thing that revived my bedroom (and probably stopped an affair that was about to start).


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

In my opinon, your wife's sexual desire isn't going to come back organically or spontaneously. It sounds like she was never a highly sexual person with you, but perhaps I've not read closely enough. 

She's going to have to do the work here. You can jump through as many hoops as you want on the things that you THINK will help, but without her honest input, you're just guessing. 

In order to give you her honest input, she has to be willing to do the work to figure it out for herself, assuming she doesn't already know and just doesn't trust you enough to tell you. Ask if she'll go to IC and figure it out. 

Sex therapy will only work if she's willing to open up to you. She might not even want to take a look at her sexuality and admit to herself what she wants and needs from a mate in order to feel highly sexual. Or she might already know you can't give it to her, but she loves you and doesn't want to lose you or hurt you. 

You're going to have to be the one who moves this ahead. She's not going to do it on her own.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

GoodFunLife, one thing I wanted to mention is that not all women see sex as the primary way to bond emotionally with their mate.

There are plenty of women who need the intellectual bond first, and then the emotional bond comes after that. 

If that is the case with your wife, you need to link sex to her intellect before you can link it to her emotions. 

Hmm, it's hard to explain. I think there is the assumption that all women need to feel an emotional connection with their spouse, and then the sexual connection follows. I need my spouse to facilitate the link between my mind and my body . . . and THEN the emotion comes into it. My emotions are hard for me to reach and engage if my mind isn't involved first. Sex as a way to emotionally bond just doesn't turn me on all that much. I emotionally bond while I'm having sex, but that's not what gets me in the mood. 

I think that can be a hard concept for men who need sex to emotionally bond with their wives to wrap their heads around. She might love you very much, but can't express that via sex until her mind tells her she's attracted to you. 

Am I making any sense at all???


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

GettingIt said:


> GoodFunLife, one thing I wanted to mention is that not all women see sex as the primary way to bond emotionally with their mate.
> 
> There are plenty of women who need the intellectual bond first, and then the emotional bond comes after that.
> 
> ...


Maybe give some examples?


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

GettingIt said:


> GoodFunLife, one thing I wanted to mention is that not all women see sex as the primary way to bond emotionally with their mate.
> 
> There are plenty of women who need the intellectual bond first, and then the emotional bond comes after that.
> 
> ...


This actually makes a lot of sense. But ironically we actually have a better intellectual connection than we do an emotional connection so I don't think that's what is blocking us.

I agree that this isn't going to happen spontaneously. I asked her if she felt ready to try to start back up again and she said no so we have started to discuss counseling.


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## GettingIt_2 (Apr 12, 2013)

GoodFunLife said:


> This actually makes a lot of sense. But ironically we actually have a better intellectual connection than we do an emotional connection so I don't think that's what is blocking us.


What I meant was figuring out what is intellectually erotic to her. Power or being powerless are two common ones. Basically: what abstractions might she fetishize? Some people really do fetishize love and intimacy. I think most people think they are supposed to fetishize it. But I also think a lot of people are closed off to their own sexuality because they don't like and won't accept what turns them on--particularly if it's socially or culturally taboo. They can't even admit it to themselves let alone their partner or therapist. 



GoodFunLife said:


> I agree that this isn't going to happen spontaneously. I asked her if she felt ready to try to start back up again and she said no so we have started to discuss counseling.


I hope she'll consider individual counseling with a sex therapist. I actually think it will be more valuable for her, at least in the beginning.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

The dialogue I've had with my wife over the past week has been illuminating. She intends to start having sex with me again, she just wants to do it when she's really ready, which is what I want too. She thinks working with a marriage counselor will help us ease back in but she's not really in a rush to get started. And she wants a marriage counselor not a sex therapist which suggests to me that either a) she thinks we have broader issues in our relationship than just sex or b) she has insecurities about her sexuality that she is uncomfortable talking about and she knows a sex therapist would force her to deal with them. When I tell her I think we need to have someone well-trained in sex therapy because sex is the only problem I think we have in our marriage she doesn't say anything other than I don't want a sex therapist.

So as we're dealing with all this, a couple days ago out of the blue she unexpectedly suggests we go away for a weekend together without the kids. I didn't think she was serious but by the end of the day she had booked a hotel and flights. Go figure. No discussion yet of whether this means she envisions sex happening while we're away (I would ordinarily assume yes but in the context of everything else going on who knows) but after no sex for more than 9 months it would be cruel punishment for her to plan a weekend like this and not intend to be sexual.

One other interesting piece of information - She told me pretty directly that a big part of what's been bothering her is that she doesn't feel she needs sex & intimacy to be happy but she knows that I do and that has made her feel like she is responsible for my happiness. That I can't be independently happy without her pleasing me sexually. I think that's a big source of the pressure she's been feeling when I try to initiate. And connecting the dots I think that whatever insecurities about sex she feels have led her to believe that she can't please me sexually. So if she thinks my happiness depends on a level of sexual satisfaction that she feels incapable of providing then she has been filling herself up with pressure that I never intended for her to feel.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

In other words:

1. The getaway is to take care of the next nine months

2. She needs to continue the status quo but make you responsible for your own happiness without her, ehem, intervention.

3. She's seeking validation of her views via a non sexually trained marriage counselor.

4. Overall, she sounds like she wants to do the minimum amount of work required to keep you around.

Prognosis: she's attempting to rationalize her views and seeks validation. Not likely to produce results. She may "compromise" from nine months to nine weeks ("but we now have sex much more often") but as long as she does not understand the basics it's not going anywhere.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

It's a trap.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

The cynics never sleep out here ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

This here cynic knows a thing or two about how the mind works, and merely played out a few scenarios for y'all to ponder 'bout. 

Take her up on both offers and see if they play out the way you think or the way she thinks.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

There is something deeper going on, and I suspect she probably isnt even sure what it is herself. 

Is she aware that a sex therapist is trained the same way as marriage counselors? They can and will do marriage counseling during your sessions. The difference is they have had additional training specifically with sexuality and sexual relationships. 

Because the nature of your problem has a sexual component, you would be better off with a sex therspist who is equipped to deal with the whole package not just part of it. It would be like going to a general doctor when you are having neurological issues. The doctior can help you somewhat, but the specialist will be able to identify the issues better and will be more experienced in treating it correctly. 

My husband and I went to a sex therapist, and a lot of our counseliing sessions focused on our general relationship as was needed. She worked on strengthing our relationship before moving on to the more complicated sexual issues. She also did individual counseling as needed. 

As far as the get a way, you may want to gear yourself for more talking and listening than sex. Shes holding a lot in and seems to not be comfortable in opening up completely with you. She may have a lot of resentment and conflict built up if that has been her pattern most of your marriage.

if I were you - I would be getting a counselor sooner than later. If she wont go to a certified sex therapist, make sure you find a counselor that has a lot of experience in dealing with sexual issues in a marriage. 

Stay patient, keep working on yourself and on trying to meet her needs. But do get professional help now. The longer you go, the more chance of you getting frustrated and resentful and slipping back into old habits. plus she is getting too comfortable where she is at. if you keep waiting, she may conclude that this is where she wants to keep the relationship.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

GoodFunLife said:


> The dialogue I've had with my wife over the past week has been illuminating. She intends to start having sex with me again, she just wants to do it when she's really ready, which is what I want too. She thinks working with a marriage counselor will help us ease back in but she's not really in a rush to get started. And she wants a marriage counselor not a sex therapist which suggests to me that either a) she thinks we have broader issues in our relationship than just sex or b) she has insecurities about her sexuality that she is uncomfortable talking about and she knows a sex therapist would force her to deal with them. When I tell her I think we need to have someone well-trained in sex therapy because sex is the only problem I think we have in our marriage she doesn't say anything other than I don't want a sex therapist.
> 
> So as we're dealing with all this, a couple days ago out of the blue she unexpectedly suggests we go away for a weekend together without the kids. I didn't think she was serious but by the end of the day she had booked a hotel and flights. Go figure. No discussion yet of whether this means she envisions sex happening while we're away (I would ordinarily assume yes but in the context of everything else going on who knows) but after no sex for more than 9 months it would be cruel punishment for her to plan a weekend like this and not intend to be sexual.
> 
> One other interesting piece of information - She told me pretty directly that a big part of what's been bothering her is that *she doesn't feel she needs sex & intimacy to be happy but she knows that I do and that has made her feel like she is responsible for my happiness. That I can't be independently happy without her pleasing me sexually.* I think that's a big source of the pressure she's been feeling when I try to initiate. And connecting the dots I think that whatever insecurities about sex she feels have led her to believe that she can't please me sexually. So if she thinks my happiness depends on a level of sexual satisfaction that she feels incapable of providing then she has been filling herself up with pressure that I never intended for her to feel.


Many spouses do things for their partner that they don't personally need for their own happiness. They don't do it because they feel responsible for their spouses happiness. They do it because they genuinely want to see their spouse happy.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

GoodFunLife said:


> She told me pretty directly that a big part of what's been bothering her is that she doesn't feel she needs sex & intimacy to be happy but she knows that I do and that has made her feel *like she is responsible for my happiness.* That I can't be independently happy without her pleasing me sexually. I think that's a big source of the pressure she's been feeling when I try to initiate. And connecting the dots I think that whatever insecurities about sex *she feels have led her to believe that she can't please me sexually.* So if she thinks my happiness depends on a level of sexual satisfaction that she feels incapable of providing then she has been filling herself up with pressure that I never intended for her to feel.


You have gotten yourself into a perfect storm of a sex starved marriage that has taken years to create. Your wife likely does not want sex because of her own poor self esteem that no one would be attracted to her. Over the past year you have reinforced this by not pursuing any sex with her. 

Sexuality has seasons, and in this season you've been in for a while a woman needs her man to come running after her to say, "I love you, and I need you!" Instead you sat on the sidelines and allowed things to remain sexless.

She likely withdrew sexually in an attempt to create somewhat of a "damsel in distress" scenario of bringing the relationship to the brink of destruction so that she could get to see what you would do to save it. In the past you threw temper tantrums for not getting enough sex, and now you have gone almost a year without it. Deep down, this has likely hurt your wife so much that she has built such strong emotional boundaries around her sexuality that in order to awaken her again, you are going to have to get her to accept and forgive you (even if she created the problem) for you not rescuing her years ago when she needed you to make her feel loved as opposed to an inadequate sex object.

So now if she has sex with you, she will just go through the motions, not feel anything, and force herself to face that things have failed since she will likely convince herself that the "magic" is gone. If she failed to initiate sex in the past year, it is because her self confidence is likely beyond repair. 

My advice would be to pursue her relentlessly and be aggressive about being intimate with her. Hugging her, holding her, telling her you are attracted to her, skin to skin contact, but DO NOT force her to enjoy it and DO NOT force her to have sex. Simply allow her to get angry with you and repeatedly reject you. Be strong, take it, insist that you love her, and eventually she will begin to respond. 

It takes effort for her to keep up her barriers, and by not responding angrily or with disappointment when she refuses you and rejects you while at the same time you insist that you love and desire her, it will begin to weaken the walls she has built, and just maybe she will let you in again. 

In the meantime, expect a world of hurt before it will get better. Be prepared to take it. Allow her to take it out on you, but do not return any punches by getting angry or disappointed. Just make her feel loved and let her know you want to love her.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

You both are responsible for your relationship and the state it is in, and while you are each directly responsible for your own happiness, each of you and your behaviors have an affect on the relationship and on each of yours satisfaction with the relationship. Thus you both can and do affect each others happiness level - its just the way it is and a natural part of being in a relationship. 

In my opinion - trying to separate each others happiness and not wanting responsibility for your partners happiness is a cop out. What the person is most likely really saying is that at this moment my individual self and personal needs are more important than the success of our relationship. They may have good reason for feeling that way and may need to pull back for whatever reason for their own sanity, but long term relationships do not generally survive well with this kind of thinking.

Both partners need to be focused on healthy ways to be individually happy, while at the same time, focused on helping their spouse get their needs met within their relationship in healthy ways, and keeping the state of the relationship healthy and happy for both partners. That means there has to be a self focus AND a partner focus for the relationship to succeed. Too much of one or not enough of one by either partner for long periods of time is what damages relationships. 

For some reason your wife feels a need to be self focused and cant be partner focused, at least as far as sex is concerned. She and you have to realize, as much as she would like to deny it - an extended period of her doing this does and will affect your happiness level within your relationship and not for the good. 

So in many ways she is responsible for your happiness within your marriage. And if she continues on this self focused only path for a long period you will be unhappy within your relationship and the relationship will further erode. It cant be helped, its the nature of relationships. So you should not disagree with her assessment nor try to relieve her of responsibility for your happiness within the relationship. Its an important part of a relationship.

What I am trying to say is that the problem is not that she feels pressure to meet your sexual needs so that you can also be happy within the relationship - that is a natural part of being in a relationship and cant be helped, nor should it be done away with. She inheritningly knows this or she would not have brought it up. Right now her individual need to be happy is greater than her desire for the suucess of the relationship. She knows this is a problem and the relatopnship wont/cant survive her continuing on this self focused course, which is why she feels pressure. Yet, that knowledge does not motivate her to try to fix things. 

The problem is not that she feels pressure, but that the pressure has become such an emotional negative to her, so much so that she is willing to let the relationship errode instead of dealing with the real problem headon.

Get professional help now - neither of you are equipped to deal with this on your own.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

mary35 said:


> There is something deeper going on, and I suspect she probably isnt even sure what it is herself.
> 
> Is she aware that a sex therapist is trained the same way as marriage counselors? They can and will do marriage counseling during your sessions. The difference is they have had additional training specifically with sexuality and sexual relationships.
> 
> ...


Completely agree. I've been thinking there's something deeper going on for a while which is why I am eager to get started with therapy. I am going to push hard for a counselor trained in sex therapy and if she digs in to avoid that, it will likely prompt some necessary dialogue about why she is resisting so hard. And yes as much as I'd love a 48 hour sex fest where we never leave the hotel room I know that isn't going to happen ... Anything that happens to move things forward would be a good start.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Good plan. You need to really understand the reasoning behind her resistance to a sex therapist. That's going to be the string to start pulling on.


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## seeking sanity (Oct 20, 2009)

You are being worked, and you've gotten your thinking so deep into the wormhole that you're not seeing reality.

She's avoiding having sex with you, while trolling you along with vague promises that have conditions - "Counselling, but not a sex counsellor, sometime soon, but not urgent..." 

What a bunch of BS. Objectively, you have to see it.

Who knows why she is how she is. You won't be able to figure it out, she has to do that, but she's not motivated to figure it out, much less do something about it. What MAY motivate her, is for you to stop being such a wus and make your needs more important in this relationship. If she see's there is a consequence for her stonewalling, it may kick start things.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

Mary & badsanta thank you for the good insight. I think you have both touched on some really key issues. I feel like we have become a case study for what David Schnarch writes in Passionate Marriage about self-validation, other-validation, emotional fusion and the need for "differentiation."
Mary as you point out she has become hyper self-validated, which is great up to a point because she delights in her ability to be independently happy with the simple things in life, but her lack of interest in meeting my needs has resulted in a big wedge in our relationship. She is not properly differentiated where she can simultaneously remain independently happy but also be willing to invest in the relationship and make it more of a priority. When I started to work on me about a year ago, I was way too "other-validated" and had let myself become too emotionally fused with my wife. I sensed things were heading the wrong direction and the way I handled myself before I figured all this out only made things worse. A man's desire for sex and intimacy in a relationship is a basic primary need but if not expressed properly and behavior breaks down when this need is not being met adequately, this masculine need that should be sexy and attractive to the woman turns into lame, needy, juvenile nice guy behavior that kills attraction and desire. That is where I had regrettably let myself get to and I have been digging out of that hole for the past year. She admits to having a hard time letting go of resentment and old grudges and I think this is preventing her from being able to fully recognize the positive changes I have been making and allow herself to embrace the possibility of a new and different kind of sexual pleasure with me, something she has never really experienced before.

Santa - to clarify a couple things, I probably tried to initiate 6 or 8 times over the course of the past 9 months and have regularly told her that I love and adore her and still feel raw, primal attraction for her that I don't feel for any other woman so there is no way she has not felt my desire for her in a way that should make her feel sexy, special and unique. But always met with resistance so for me to even think about pushing for more without getting the right kind of responsiveness would have been a big mistake. Your approach is essentially what I have been doing and it's testing my patience for sure. My wife is a strong-mined woman and I know she regrets not voicing her discontent with our sex life earlier before things really deteriorated. And the scar tissue clearly runs deep.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Once you've crossed into a 'mother to son' or 'brother to sister' type perception, the odds of recovery are almost nil. Don't know WHY that is, just that it IS. 

When the thought of sex with someone makes your skin crawl, a sex therapist is a non starter. 

So she tries to change the subject by asking for basic MC. And in a quietly frantic way, keep the focus away from sex itself as if the marriage depended on it. 

Because the day you have the skin crawling conversation, is the day your spouse understands that - there is no fix. 

And it isn't just sex. It's touch. 

I would make a large bet that when they 'talk' about this, GFL's wife says as little as humanly possible. While GFL has quite a lot to say. 





GoodFunLife said:


> Mary & badsanta thank you for the good insight. I think you have both touched on some really key issues. I feel like we have become a case study for what David Schnarch writes in Passionate Marriage about self-validation, other-validation, emotional fusion and the need for "differentiation."
> Mary as you point out she has become hyper self-validated, which is great up to a point because she delights in her ability to be independently happy with the simple things in life, but her lack of interest in meeting my needs has resulted in a big wedge in our relationship. She is not properly differentiated where she can simultaneously remain independently happy but also be willing to invest in the relationship and make it more of a priority. When I started to work on me about a year ago, I was way too "other-validated" and had let myself become too emotionally fused with my wife. I sensed things were heading the wrong direction and the way I handled myself before I figured all this out only made things worse. A man's desire for sex and intimacy in a relationship is a basic primary need but if not expressed properly and behavior breaks down when this need is not being met adequately, this masculine need that should be sexy and attractive to the woman turns into lame, needy, juvenile nice guy behavior that kills attraction and desire. That is where I had regrettably let myself get to and I have been digging out of that hole for the past year. She admits to having a hard time letting go of resentment and old grudges and I think this is preventing her from being able to fully recognize the positive changes I have been making and allow herself to embrace the possibility of a new and different kind of sexual pleasure with me, something she has never really experienced before.
> 
> Santa - to clarify a couple things, I probably tried to initiate 6 or 8 times over the course of the past 9 months and have regularly told her that I love and adore her and still feel raw, primal attraction for her that I don't feel for any other woman so there is no way she has not felt my desire for her in a way that should make her feel sexy, special and unique. But always met with resistance so for me to even think about pushing for more without getting the right kind of responsiveness would have been a big mistake. Your approach is essentially what I have been doing and it's testing my patience for sure. My wife is a strong-mined woman and I know she regrets not voicing her discontent with our sex life earlier before things really deteriorated. And the scar tissue clearly runs deep.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

GoodFunLife said:


> Santa - to clarify a couple things, I probably tried to initiate 6 or 8 times over the course of the past 9 months and have regularly told her that I love and adore her and still feel raw, primal attraction for her that I don't feel for any other woman so there is no way she has not felt my desire for her in a way that should make her feel sexy, special and unique. *But always met with resistance so for me to even think about pushing for more without getting the right kind of responsiveness would have been a big mistake.* Your approach is essentially what I have been doing and it's testing my patience for sure. My wife is a strong-mined woman and I know she regrets not voicing her discontent with our sex life earlier before things really deteriorated. And the scar tissue clearly runs deep.


I would disagree... I would think you need to push for more for the purpose of making her upset. I do NOT mean being pushy in an abusive way, but more so of "I know you are upset and I am not going to back down." An example may be to insist she gets nude and then hold her. Nothing more and nothing less. She will obviously resist getting nude and this is your opportunity to insist, say that you will not force her to do anything other than to hold each other and talk. Then you can insist on this as a way to perturb her to get upset while you remain loving and confident as she will begin to unload some anger on you. 

*Sometimes intimacy is not running away from your wife when she is upset or angry* but staying confident that you are worthy of being loved, listening to her, acknowledging how she feels, and then talking things through in a loving way. 

Badsanta


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## Middle of Everything (Feb 19, 2012)

WorkingOnMe said:


> It's a trap.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Long conversations about the "why's" are not helpful to you. All they do is all her to better refine her excuses. You've gotten the old "I can give you nothing because I already know that I cannot ever do enough to make a difference". That falls just after "I'm too fat" in the book "101 Standard Turn Downs for Sex". You need to control the conversation and the conversations need to be short. The themes are:

1. Marriages are sexual relationships.
2. Our primary job as a spouse is to make sure the other person is glad they are married to me.
3. Strong marriages make great children.
4. Strong marriages are sexual marriages.
5. I meet your needs with a positive attidude and expect you to meet my needs with a positive attitude.
6. In marriage you get alot of points for trying.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Once you've crossed into a 'mother to son' or 'brother to sister' type perception, the odds of recovery are almost nil. Don't know WHY that is, just that it IS.
> 
> When the thought of sex with someone makes your skin crawl, a sex therapist is a non starter.
> 
> ...


There's truth in this, but it's not justification to give up and not try. Giving up and not trying are precisely the problem here.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Good insight GFL, you have done your homework. 

While I agree with BadSanta in theory, you need to be careful with your approach, just as you now recognize. 

In my mind I think the best way for you to man up in your situation would be to just take the lead in finding a good sex therapist, actually a couple of them, set up the apponitments and tell her when they are. I say a couple of them because you need a good fit and it may take a couple of tries to get that fit. 

If she complains that you chose a sex therapist, you simply state that you researched counselors and these are the best for your situatuon, which should be a true statement. If she drags her feet or refuses to go, simply tell her you will be keeping the appointments with or without her. You prefer with her as you not only want to work on your issues but you also want to work on the relationship with her. Tell her you are not trying to fix her sexually, you are interested in getting help for the both of you to fix the whole relationship. Then do what you say you are going to do. If she still wont go, go yourself. You may have to prove you will do your part to get her to follow.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Foz,
How can you possibly fix something like that? 




Fozzy said:


> There's truth in this, but it's not justification to give up and not try. Giving up and not trying are precisely the problem here.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

GoodFunLife said:


> Completely agree. I've been thinking there's something deeper going on for a while which is why I am eager to get started with therapy. I am going to push hard for a counselor trained in sex therapy and if she digs in to avoid that, it will likely prompt some necessary dialogue about why she is resisting so hard. And yes as much as I'd love a 48 hour sex fest where we never leave the hotel room I know that isn't going to happen ... Anything that happens to move things forward would be a good start.


No dialogue needed and dont push for a sex therapist, just move forward with action now and get a sex therapist. The diologue can be done with professional guidance later. Right now, action is more important than diaogue. This action will say more to her than any words can.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mary,
I usually agree with you. I'm a bit confused on this one. 

You do realize that GFL's wife avoids non sexual affection? Touch? 
And they lack much of an emotional connection? 

A sex therapist can help with technique. Not with aversion. 





mary35 said:


> Good insight GFL, you have done your homework.
> 
> While I agree with BadSanta in theory, you need to be careful with your approach, just as you now recognize.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If she avoids all kinds of affection, she's well into emotional Alzheimer's territory and there's little hope of recovery. What she has works for her so.....


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Mary,
> I usually agree with you. I'm a bit confused on this one.
> 
> You do realize that GFL's wife avoids non sexual affection? Touch?
> ...


This a common misunderstanding about sex therspists. They are trained to be regular counselors first, then get additional training in the field of sexuality. They are well equipped to deal with all problems within a marriage. The bonus is that they are better equipped to deal with the sexual issues and to see it as part of the whole package to be fixed. a regular therapist may not have the expertise to deal with the sexual issues and may gloss over that part (as did CopperTops 1st and third counselors. See his thread).


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

I am not saying a sex therapist is a magic fix all solution. Its not. All any good therapist can do is guide the sessions. The people have to do all thr work. If GFL's wife does not want to fix this, its not going to get fixed, period, no matter what GFL does. I see this as his last ditch effort. You are right, this situation is bad, and right now, his wife is basically saying with her actions that she is not the least bit interested in fixing things. She is stating loud and clear that she is fine where they are at. Up till now , his actions have said that he is Ok with it too. Getting a sex therapist is a statement and a behavior that says he is no longer Ok with status quo.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

A sex therapist gives the wrong message - there's a lot more wrong about a marriage where common touch and nonsexual intimacy is unwelcome.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mary,
When a wife is actively avoiding non sexual contact with her husband, that's a huge issue. Usually it goes beyond sex. She's not here. All I can tell you is this reminds me of the threads by women who got to the point of aversion to touch. The OP is a book smart person - book smart. This situation requires common sense. 

And without intending to, he's made it incredibly difficult for her to tell him how she really feels. And in this type situation, the ONLY shot you have at getting the truth, is to make that the easiest route. 




mary35 said:


> This a common misunderstanding about sex therspists. They are trained to be regular counselors first, then get additional training in the field of sexuality. They are well equipped to deal with all problems within a marriage. The bonus is that they are better equipped to deal with the sexual issues and to see it as part of the whole package to be fixed. a regular therapist may not have the expertise to deal with the sexual issues and may gloss over that part (as did CopperTops 1st and third counselors. See his thread).


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Untill this effort fails, I am not willing to say there is no hope for GFL. He is on the right track, maybe later than he needs to be, but I think he has a chance with the right guidance AND only if his wife dors her part. However, even if this effort fails, and the marriage does too, GFL will come out of this better equipped and prepared for any future relationships should he go that route. At the very least, if GFL does his part with the therapist, he will come out of therapy knowing he did what he could, and the failure is due to her not wanting to fix things.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> Foz,
> How can you possibly fix something like that?


Don't know. The thing is that with as much information as we have, we're just internet strangers offering advice based on a partial picture. I got plenty of advice (not just from this site) telling me that my marriage was doomed also and I'm glad I didn't listen.

We're basically trying to mind-read the OP's wife in absentium. A lot of times we're pretty close to the mark, but I can't in good conscience tell a guy to stop trying before he even starts.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Mary,
> When a wife is actively avoiding non sexual contact with her husband, that's a huge issue. Usually it goes beyond sex. She's not here. All I can tell you is this reminds me of the threads by women who got to the point of aversion to touch. The OP is a book smart person - book smart. This situation requires common sense.
> 
> And without intending to, he's made it incredibly difficult for her to tell him how she really feels. And in this type situation, the ONLY shot you have at getting the truth, is to make that the easiest route.


I couldnt agree more. I guess I think the easiest route to her being able to the get to thr truth and get it out is with professional guidance. since she cant/wont talk to GFL. I am not sure she knows what the truth is. I didnt. 

What do you think the easiest route is Mem?


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Fozzy said:


> Don't know. The thing is that with as much information as we have, we're just internet strangers offering advice based on a partial picture. I got plenty of advice (not just from this site) telling me that my marriage was doomed also and I'm glad I didn't listen.
> 
> We're basically trying to mind-read the OP's wife in absentium. A lot of times we're pretty close to the mark, but I can't in good conscience tell a guy to stop trying before he even starts.



Totally agree Fozz.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mary,
The way this looks to me is that the OP is focused on the mechanics of the situation. On what she is doing, not why. 

But that's not the worst aspect of this situation. The worst part is that she has a totally clear picture of how he feels and what he wants. And he has absolutely no idea at all how she feels and/or why she feels that way. None. 

The lack of emotional connection - is perhaps caused by a steadfast avoidance of difficult truths. 





mary35 said:


> Untill this effort fails, I am not willing to say there is no hope for GFL. He is on the right track, maybe later than he needs to be, but I think he has a chance with the right guidance AND only if his wife dors her part. However, even if this effort fails, and the marriage does too, GFL will come out of this better equipped and prepared for any future relationships should he go that route. At the very least, if GFL does his part with the therapist, he will come out of therapy knowing he did what he could, and the failure is due to her not wanting to fix things.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

john117 said:


> A sex therapist gives the wrong message - there's a lot more wrong about a marriage where common touch and nonsexual intimacy is unwelcome.


why does it send the wrong message? 

If it does it seems to me it has to be because of a lack of knowledge about sex therapists. If the problem is with the word sex, then dont call them a sex therapist. Call them a therapist. 

If GFL does his research in finding a good one, he will call them or meet with them alone, and relay the most important issues, including the touch aversion, and ask if they are experienced and had success with their particular issues.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Mary,
> The way this looks to me is that the OP is focused on the mechanics of the situation. On what she is doing, not why.
> 
> But that's not the worst aspect of this situation. The worst part is that she has a totally clear picture of how he feels and what he wants. And he has absolutely no idea at all how she feels and/or why she feels that way. None.
> ...


Again, I agree with you. Why dont you think a sex therapist can help them with this?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

A sex therapist can only help them if GFL's wife actually goes. Right now, she's scared of the sexual component of their marriage. It's possible she's truly averse to sex. Or that she's averse to GFL. It's also possible that she's averse to owning her own responsibility for where the state of their sex life is. Any one of those things could prompt her to not want to go to a sex therapist.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

Thanks for all the constructive input. As I see it I have the following choices -

1. Roll over, fall in line, agree to a sexless marriage for the sake of the kids and her peace of mind and hope maybe someday she comes around. No thank you.

2. Give up, get divorced. It may someday come to that but not ready to concede.

3. Keep banging head against wall, hope for different result. Has not worked yet and she's given me no reason to believe it will start working any time soon. The weekend trip is perhaps an olive branch but I don't see fundamental change happening organically.

4. Open marriage. She mentioned it a couple times when this started last Spring but there's been no discussion of it since. Not my thing, I think I'd rather get divorced and start fresh.

5. Begin counseling and get the healing process started.

I'm sure there are other variations but I'm not sure I have much of a choice at this point but to dive into counseling with positive attitude and strong leadership for when things inevitably get uncomfortable.

I think she is afraid of what a sex therapist would confront her with and wants a vanilla counselor who would "take her side" to try to convince me that marriages are about much more than sex and that there's nothing wrong with a couple growing into their 50's and 60's as best friends but not as lovers. Attraction invariably fades away over time, long-term marriages have too much baggage to remain sexually charged etc etc ... I'm sure there are plenty of counselors who make good money giving that kind of advice but I'm not interested in paying for that. And I kid you not that outside the bedroom we are close to the gold standard when it comes to friendship, communication, respect, appreciation, handling adversity & having fun together ie all the kinds of things couples go to counseling for. Which makes her aversion to sex and intimacy all the more perplexing.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Could be an olive branch. Could be a pacifier. 

No matter which option you choose, eventually you'll get to option #2. When that happens, that will be when she finally puts in an effort. The only question is, by the time you get to that option, will you yourself be completely checked out or not.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

so dont call them a sex therapist. A sex therapist is a regular counselor with more letters behind their name (earned because of additional training).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Certified_Sex_Therapist


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

I'm trying to find where OP's wife has become resistant to non-sexual touch. Can someone point me to that post?

GFL--in my opinion the getaway trip is a step in the right direction. Coming off an extended drought can be awkward to say the least. Go into it with a good attitude and give her the benefit of the doubt. 

How do you normally initiate?


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

GoodFunLife said:


> Thanks for all the constructive input. As I see it I have the following choices -
> 
> 1. Roll over, fall in line, agree to a sexless marriage for the sake of the kids and her peace of mind and hope maybe someday she comes around. No thank you.
> 
> ...


So do it. Find a “therapist“ and get moving.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

She mentioned an open marriage, huh?

Are you absolutely sure that you aren't in one right now and just don't know it?

Call me a skeptic, but more often than not, this means that a woman is in an A already or is seriously thinking about engaging in one. Zero sex with you could mean that she is being faithful to someone else 

How would you rate her ability to compartmentalize? 

What was her FOO like? And does she have any history of abuse?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Mary,
It would likely (positively) shock the OP's wife if he shed the layers of ego protection surrounding him. 

If he did that - then he would be free to say what is likely true. And at that point all she has to do is nod. Confirmation is SO much easier than confession. 

Consider how radically different the following two approaches are:

1. You're the ONLY one I love, the ONLY one I want to have sex with. (FWIW - this is a positive statement if the feeling is mutual).

Or

2. Maybe we just aren't compatible. If so, it's important to me that you don't feel guilty. I'm going to be fine. And you're going to be fine. We've had a great run together, and if it's over, and it looks like it is, we should accept that and part friends. 

---------
(1) Creates a huge barrier to her being honest. It's got a flavor of: you're the only one for me. It is a statement of neediness when said in the context of a sexless, affection-lite, emotionally disconnected marriage. 

(2) It very possible her response to (2) will be driven by fear, not love. And that is why it is important for him to emphasize the giant chasm between: wanting to remain with someone you love, and being afraid of divorce. This is where he tells her: Neither of us should settle for - what this marriage has become. Which is a relationship devoid of connection, touch and sex. 

My guess - is she is going to stick with the one truthful statement she feels she can safely make which is this: I don't want to get a divorce. 

The only response to that is: 
Thank you for not lying to me. I believe you like the financial stability of marriage and having me around to support whatever it is you ask for. 

But I'm going to make this easy for you. Unless you can begin telling me - the ugly stuff - the scary stuff - about why this marriage is emotionally dead. I'm going to begin the process of ending it. 

You are so afraid of how I'll react, you aren't even willing to be honest with me about the big ugly things that have brought us to this place. 

--------------------





mary35 said:


> I couldnt agree more. I guess I think the easiest route to her being able to the get to thr truth and get it out is with professional guidance. since she cant/wont talk to GFL. I am not sure she knows what the truth is. I didnt.
> 
> What do you think the easiest route is Mem?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

GoodFunLife said:


> ...try to convince me that marriages are about much more than sex and that there's nothing wrong with a couple growing into their 50's and 60's as best friends but not as lovers. Attraction invariably fades away over time, long-term marriages have too much baggage to remain sexually charged etc etc ... I'm sure there are plenty of counselors who make good money giving that kind of advice but I'm not interested in paying for that.


...try to convince me that marriages are much more than a couple growing into their 50's and 60's than just two people that manage to stay friends. Attraction does not fade away over time, and long term marriages bond over life's struggles to develop a close form of physical intimacy that young couples can not yet understand.
@GoodFunLife real intimate attraction starts when the one you are with easily looks past your thinning gray hair line, past a few wrinkles, huge scars from surgeries earlier in life, and the extra weight you have gained from getting older to know that this person loves "who you are" and not just "what you are!"

Anyone can find youthfulness attractive, but true love endures and does not fade. It grows.

Badsanta


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

GoodFunLife said:


> 1. My wife doesn't want me to make sex into a big deal and for it to define our relationship. She wants it to be "normal" which for her means a few times a month without any drama.
> 
> 2. We talk all the time. Kids, work, fitness, politics, friends, family issues ... We are each other's best friends and can talk about just about anything. Sex is truly the only issue where there is awkward tension between us.
> 
> ...


I'm guessing this is where the talk about aversion to touch is coming from. 

GFL--was she like this during the good times also, or is this something that developed when sex began to taper off?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The assumption here is that she will go to counseling thinking she needs to be changed and willing to change.


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## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

john117 said:


> The assumption here is that she will go to counseling thinking she needs to be changed and willing to change.


Hah! Anyone care to wager which way she goes on this? 

Maybe I am confused, but isn't she a counselor/psychologist herself?


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

GoodFunLife said:


> Thanks for all the constructive input. As I see it I have the following choices -


I would like to add a 6th choice:

6. She commits to making other areas of the marriage so good that you don't mind the lack of sex.

Too often, the LD partner sits back and does little or nothing to fix the problem. And furthermore, they don't make any special considerations in other areas to make up for the lack of sex. They treat the lack of sex as a non-issue and expect their partner to just deal with it themselves.

So think about what would make you happy to stay in a sexless marriage. Maybe it's that she's the breadwinner so you can stay home and relax. Or that she keeps the house spotless and always makes your favorite meals. Or that you get to go on sex vacations a few times a year. Basically, what would make you happy enough to not consider divorce?

If you pursue the sexual recovery of your marriage, be sure you have reasonable expectations of what she can offer. Don't expect that she'll be a sex kitten. The best you might get is 1x/week scheduled sex. And a very likely outcome is that she doesn't want sex at all. There's always a chance she'll come around, but that's not the typical scenario.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

Wife is definitely not a counselor ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Her behavior reminds me of that of wives who - eventually admit they either:
- lost attraction permanently along the way or
- were never attracted to their husbands

Unfortunately it is often a 5-10 year process to get to that one simple truth. 





wilson said:


> I would like to add a 6th choice:
> 
> 6. She commits to making other areas of the marriage so good that you don't mind the lack of sex.
> 
> ...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> The assumption here is that she will go to counseling thinking she needs to be changed and willing to change.


Well @john117 I live by the golden rule I made for myself, and that is, "NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING." 

A subset of that rule is also "NEVER TRUST SOMETHING THAT CAN NOT BE VERIFIED INDEPENDENTLY."

For example if I am working on an overseas project and I have a concern about one of the specs, I will solve the problem, request that another person overseas solve the problem independently, and I will not proceed until both our solutions reconcile with one another. Otherwise I would likely end up in a hot mess. 

So to apply these rules to marriage, if I want something that my wife can only give me, I DO NOT ASSUME she will just give it to me. I know I often have to use a means of motivating her to do something. I DO NOT TRUST that it will work unless this particular form of motivation HAS PROVEN TO WORK SUCCESSFULLY BEFORE on other things. 

So in marriage if I want more intimacy, I might make my wife breakfast in bed. Then I'll ask her if she enjoyed it after she is finished and then reveal that by eating the breakfast I made that she agreed to a covert contract (that is now no longer covert since it is announced) to have wild and crazy sex with me later in the day. I will explain that making such a wonderful breakfast required a tremendous effort on my behalf and that I expect her to put forth just as much if not more effort later when we have sex. I'll then look at her and tell her that I actually kind of feel sorry for her because she is going to have to work really hard to fulfill her end of the deal. I'll then explain that if she does not fulfill her end of the deal that I will penalize everyone in the house by throwing a passive aggressive tantrum and make everyone fücking miserable, and if there is anything I am very good at, that she knows I am indeed very good at that. I'll even go ahead and reveal my plan to install an attic antenna and cut/drill fücking holes all in the wall/ceiling/floor right of her favorite part of the living room where she likes to read her novels in peace and quiet. I then tell her that regardless of what she plans to do (to give or not to give me wild sex) that I will be perfectly happy either way and I'll show her the box with a new attic antenna I just purchased and smile!

I mean to most people this should be common sense and marriage 101, but you are right, some people just "ASSUME" things will always go their way and do not put in any effort!

Cheers, 
Badsanta

PS: one of the things my wife does to me... Say she wants to go shopping for something expensive (couple hundred dollars) and she knows that I will advise against it. She will actually convince me that she is unhappy with half the furniture in our house and wants to replace it to the tune of a couple thousand dollars. I'll freak out and she will pretend to be upset. Then when she pretends to concede that it is not wise for us to replace all the furniture BUT she will get me to agree to the original purchase she wanted (which she is just now revealing for the first time) so that a few hundred dollars will not seem so bad. She did this to me last week to get me to put in a new ceiling fan and admitted it to me and laughed at me that I fall for it every time once I finished. I was actually proud of her, because it did motivate me to replace the ceiling fan and I was happy to do it thinking she wanted all new furniture in the room. So this behavior goes both ways in our marriage, and we except it and we both try to have good sportsmanship when we manipulate each other!


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> Mary,
> It would likely (positively) shock the OP's wife if he shed the layers of ego protection surrounding him.
> 
> If he did that - then he would be free to say what is likely true. And at that point all she has to do is nod. Confirmation is SO much easier than confession.
> ...


This post should be a sticky in the SIM forum.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

john117 said:


> A sex therapist gives the wrong message - there's a lot more wrong about a marriage where common touch and nonsexual intimacy is unwelcome.


I agree that much more is wrong with the marriage. And that introducing a sex therapist it a difficult topic to handle well.



mary35 said:


> I couldnt agree more. I guess I think the easiest route to her being able to the get to thr truth and get it out is with professional guidance. since she cant/wont talk to GFL. I am not sure she knows what the truth is. I didnt.
> 
> What do you think the easiest route is Mem?


Totally agree that a Sex Therapist is needed.



john117 said:


> The assumption here is that she will go to counseling thinking she needs to be changed and willing to change.


Since the OP quoted Schnarch, I am impressed. One of the things that got my wife in my SSM into see a sex therapist was was my reading a section of his book to her, where he says there is no right amount of sex in a marriage and if one person likes sex less often it doesn't mean they are broken and in need of fixing. She agreed with that and didn't realize that a Sex Therapist would says such a thing.

That was the wedge in the door. By then I had made changes in myself and my marriage and had made her start feeling emotionally loved and cherished. What I told my wife was that the Sex Therapist was there to help us discuss and negotiate on our issues not to assign blame or to force either one of us to change. 

I agree that the OP's wife will probably not want to shed her emotional armor in front of an ST.

If the OP hasn't read them, MW Davis book SSM and Glover's NMNMG are probably a good thing for him to read. If he has read Schnarch, then he has probably already read them, but still just want to make the suggestion.

Good luck and I really agree with Mary that a ST helped save my SSM.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Young, by even listening to the quote and agreeing to see a ST, your wife was interested in (a) looking into the intimacy issue and (b) working to resolve it.

Most LD's in SSM situations don't. It's that simple.

To those people, ST is like climbing Mt Everest. It's something other people do.

This is the classic trick that DIY books thrive on. Those who take the first step proactively are actually wanting a solution.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

This is why the marriage builders stats are so skewed. They represent the self selected group of couples where BOTH folks are committed to trying to make it work. And willing to invest time and money in getting there. 

I'm not suggesting the programs aren't useful. Only that the programs are predicated on two committed people. 

A couple folks have commented on the fact that the OP's wife suggested an open marriage a couple times. I'm betting there is a lot of useful information embedded in those offers. I'm guessing she has a sex drive. 

In fact, my question would be how often has she been self pleasuring during this hiatus? 





john117 said:


> Young, by even listening to the quote and agreeing to see a ST, your wife was interested in (a) looking into the intimacy issue and (b) working to resolve it.
> 
> Most LD's in SSM situations don't. It's that simple.
> 
> ...


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> 
> This is why the marriage builders stats are so skewed. They represent the self selected group of couples where BOTH folks are committed to trying to make it work. And willing to invest time and money in getting there.
> 
> ...


If she's like my wife, the answer would be "zero".

As far as her suggestion of opening the marriage--that could easily have been motivated by her own sense of guilt over her perception that she isn't bringing enough to the marriage. Or it could have been motivated by her wanting to simply get OP off her back because her drive was just gone altogether.

We don't even know the terms of the open marriage that were discussed. Opened for her? Him? Both?

Suggestions that the idea was floated as a means of getting into some other guy's pants is just conjecture at this point, and without some evidence to point at it is simply harmful.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Fozzy,

Regardless of her intentions, there is a vast gap in information in this marriage. She has almost total understanding of the OP's desires and mindset. 

He has almost no understanding of hers. 

This is different than a lack of communication. This is active avoidance of communication. 

I'm not assigning blame. Just saying that without encouragement, she's not likely to be transparent. 






Fozzy said:


> If she's like my wife, the answer would be "zero".
> 
> As far as her suggestion of opening the marriage--that could easily have been motivated by her own sense of guilt over her perception that she isn't bringing enough to the marriage. Or it could have been motivated by her wanting to simply get OP off her back because her drive was just gone altogether.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's not an information gap per se as much as it is a perception gap. Any partner knows the importance of physical intimacy so it's not like"duh that's what it is". 

She knows, and she knows that you know she knows. 

It's also a matter of priorities, consequences, and probabilities of said consequences. As long as the consequences are harmless why bother?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

john117 said:


> It's not an information gap per se as much as it is a perception gap. *Any partner knows the importance of physical intimacy* so it's not like"duh that's what it is".
> 
> She knows, and she knows that you know she knows.
> 
> It's also a matter of priorities, consequences, and probabilities of said consequences. As long as the consequences are harmless why bother?


I wonder how true this is though. For a truly LD partner, the physical intimacy is NOT important. 

It's just as easy to say that any partner knows the value of communication or emotional connection. True--any partner SHOULD be aware, but some folks are just clueless.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

It's true I'm afraid. 

We do not live in a vacuum. Everyone is depicted as having an active sex life - except Peggy Bundy lolz - on the media. 

If they're "clueless" it's generally because they choose to be, or because they turn off listening or thinking because they don't like what they hear.

That's where role models and culture stereotypes play a huge role.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Fozzy said:


> I wonder how true this is though. For a truly LD partner, the physical intimacy is NOT important.
> 
> It's just as easy to say that any partner knows the value of communication or emotional connection. True--any partner SHOULD be aware, but some folks are just clueless.


they know it's not important to THEM. but i believe they do know it's important to most people. Like john says, we don't live in a vacuum and people aren't stupid (generally).

there is the act of pretending that it's not important to most people. and then there is the act of avoidance for different reasons (some of them legitimate and some more selfish).


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Exactly. That's why I coined the terms "evil" and "stupid" three years ago (kindly note the quotes) and theorized that there's a mix of E and S present in the root cause of any LD. And the more E the harder it is.

Cultures, especially those cultures considered "low sexed", play into expectations as well. If culturally one is raised to believe that sex is a " gift" bestowed on an infrequent basis, or "dirty", or that over 50 or so it's "friends only" there isn't a therapist in the world that can undo this. 

In three years at TAM its hilarious how the universal answer for SSM is "lose weight, 180, or she's not into you" with the real root cause rarely figuring into the picture.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,
Let me revisit a TAM case study. Wife shows up on TAM, half out of her mind. Her H has had a full blown affair, and he's sorry he hurt her, but not really sorry in the overall sense. 

She was desperate for advice, and I have to say she also seemed remarkably candid about her contribution to the affair. 

So the long and short of it was this:
1. She had tried on numerous occasions to give him honest feedback on his - ummm - technique. And his response to that feedback was consistent: In an irritated tone he would reply that he knew what he was doing. 
2. He bitterly complained about frequency once a month or so. But in between complaining, treated her well. Took the family on nice vacations, etc. so she assumed the overall marriage was healthy.

He did reach a breaking point, at which time he said: 'Your sex life may be over, but mine isn't'. 
By that point, he had been complaining about sex for almost 20 years, so she didn't take him seriously. 

When she discovered the affair - they had this back and forth over whether he had slept with both his AP and wife in an overlapping manner. He had not. And he repeatedly pointed out to his wife that they hadn't slept together for 4 MONTHS, and she hadn't even noticed. 

Thing is - the whole time this battle over sex was going on - twenty years - she knew WHY she was minimizing frequency. And he didn't. 





john117 said:


> Exactly. That's why I coined the terms "evil" and "stupid" three years ago (kindly note the quotes) and theorized that there's a mix of E and S present in the root cause of any LD. And the more E the harder it is.
> 
> Cultures, especially those cultures considered "low sexed", play into expectations as well. If culturally one is raised to believe that sex is a " gift" bestowed on an infrequent basis, or "dirty", or that over 50 or so it's "friends only" there isn't a therapist in the world that can undo this.
> 
> In three years at TAM its hilarious how the universal answer for SSM is "lose weight, 180, or she's not into you" with the real root cause rarely figuring into the picture.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The wife, in this case, chose the time honored "let's cut off sex instead of communication" approach. 

Given the guy cheated on her, not surprising, but my theory is really not intended for such dynamics. Cheating throws all kinds of emotional wrenches into the model.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

You don't see his contribution to the situation?

I'm not referring to the affair. Specifically, do you not see his contribution to their frequency issues? 





john117 said:


> The wife, in this case, chose the time honored "let's cut off sex instead of communication" approach.
> 
> Given the guy cheated on her, not surprising, but my theory is really not intended for such dynamics. Cheating throws all kinds of emotional wrenches into the model.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

Let's address the class of interactions where there is a skew, a lack of equality to the degree of benefit. Let's call these skewed interactions (SKewed INteractions) or SKINs. 

Let's take an innocuous example of a SKIN. When M2 and I play racquetball, it's more fun for her than me. Why am consistently I happy to play? If she initiates, I accept. Here's why:
1. I love M2 and like making her happy 
2. It's still fun for me, even if not as fun as it would be with an opponent of more equal skill
3. It's common knowledge that this a SKIN so it creates some goodwill and produces a thank you at the end
4. M2 makes it as fun as possible for me - which is KEY to a sustainable SKIN model
5. We have SKINs where I'm the larger beneficiary 

One last thing. When we play, I slow my game down a quarter step. This produces scores ranging from 15-5, to 15-10. This way the games feel reasonably matched and everyone is happy. 

-------
Let's introduce just one variable. M2 sees a lot better with her contacts than her glasses. Last week, for the first time ever she chose to play with her glasses. 

This choice - violates (4) above. I didn't want it to turn into a habit. I removed the delay loop from my game play. We played one game, score 15-0 and I asked if maybe we could return the next day (Sunday) and she could wear her contacts. 

I wasn't mad. Just didn't want this to become a habit. 

The point of all this is simple. It's not that hard to destabilize a SKIN. 






john117 said:


> The wife, in this case, chose the time honored "let's cut off sex instead of communication" approach.
> 
> Given the guy cheated on her, not surprising, but my theory is really not intended for such dynamics. Cheating throws all kinds of emotional wrenches into the model.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> You don't see his contribution to the situation?
> 
> I'm not referring to the affair. Specifically, do you not see his contribution to their frequency issues?


I do, i saw the technique part . 

Regardless, it's like, wife's cooking is awful, so without telling her anything I throw the food away and eat outside. 

Neither side is very good at communication. End of story. From that point on its a free for all. She hates his technique. He hates the frequency. A match made in heaven. Not.

I still think that NormalPeople should be able to communicate about such things. If not, withholding sex is not the problem.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

John,

That isn't equivalent at all. 

Equivalent is: 

Husband: wife I don't like heavily salted food, cut you cut way back on the salt
Wife: I know what I'm doing. I know how to cook. 

And then doesn't alter the saltiness of her cooking at all going forward. 

After a few rounds of this, most folks stop trying to provide feedback. 

Or worse: 
Wife: (angrily) I've been cooking this way for a while, I can't believe you never said anything before. All this time I thought you liked my cooking and you've been lying to me.

---------
This type of ego protective response just kills communication. 

I understand why you have a strong view regarding J2. Just seems like you have become so biased against LD's as a group, that you are losing your ability to understand an HD's contribution to a bad outcome. 



john117 said:


> I do, i saw the technique part .
> 
> Regardless, it's like, wife's cooking is awful, so without telling her anything I throw the food away and eat outside.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

And FWIW - if I did that to M2 - she would avoid sex with me. 




john117 said:


> I do, i saw the technique part .
> 
> Regardless, it's like, wife's cooking is awful, so without telling her anything I throw the food away and eat outside.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If SKIN is such that it's 95% one side and 5% the other, don't bother. In the racquetball example its probably 60/40 at best, not significant difference for either of you.

It's the exact same thing with me and wifey cycling. I have a much better bike than her gearing wise (she's got a mountain bike, mine is a road bike). Do I smoke her on roads? No, I slow down. But its not remotely a SKIN.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

john117 said:


> If SKIN is such that it's 95% one side and 5% the other, don't bother. In the racquetball example its probably 60/40 at best, not significant difference for either of you.
> 
> It's the exact same thing with me and wifey cycling. I have a much better bike than her gearing wise (she's got a mountain bike, mine is a road bike). Do I smoke her on roads? No, I slow down. But its not remotely a SKIN.


I could smoke my wife on the road or the trail (we both have both road and mountain bikes). But I don't. I ride at her pace and try to be encouraging. Now, she can smoke ME in any running activity. I'm a slow runner...she runs 10K's and half's all the time. If i run with her, she reminds me (over and over and over) how slow I am and chastises me to keep up. Result: I refuse to run with her. I don't ride horses with her for the same reason. Actually I don't do anything with her where she might be better than me. I do those things with other people who are better than me, just not with her.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

WOM,
Perfect examples of the results of good SKIN management and poor SKIN management. 

John,
I give you a lot of latitude because I believe your situation is awful. That said, your inability to cede a reasonable point can be tiresome.....




WorkingOnMe said:


> I could smoke my wife on the road or the trail (we both have both road and mountain bikes). But I don't. I ride at her pace and try to be encouraging. Now, she can smoke ME in any running activity. I'm a slow runner...she runs 10K's and half's all the time. If i run with her, she reminds me (over and over and over) how slow I am and chastises me to keep up. Result: I refuse to run with her. I don't ride horses with her for the same reason. Actually I don't do anything with her where she might be better than me. I do those things with other people who are better than me, just not with her.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

Much good dialogue over past couple days - I appreciate the time and energy and helpful perspective many of you have put into this. A number of comments made and questions asked that I am going to try to respond to here -

1. Point was made (by Mary I think) that the pressure she is feeling is not so much her concern about being able to please me sexually but her choosing to place more importance on her individual need to be happy than on her desire for a successful relationship and her knowing that a marriage can't expect to survive this way. Keen insight - I'd never thought of it this way and agree that this may be part of what's going on with her.

2. Physical touch and non-sexual intimacy. Several comments about this and they all resonate. In many ways I miss this as much or more than I miss the actual sex. I agree that there is a lot wrong with a marriage where common touch and non-sexual intimacy is unwelcome.

3. Emotional connection. Many people lump this in with touch and intimacy but I actually see it as different. Despite all our issues I think we do have a strong emotional connection and I think she thinks we do too. We are each other's first and most often immediate contact whenever anything of significance pops up - kids, dog, work, family, health ... we lean on each other and are comfortable opening up and venting; there is really nothing we hide or choose not to discuss relating to matters outside the bedroom, even when it's a thorny or complex situation. So I actually see us as having a strong emotional connection, but unfortunately not the kind that fuels attraction and desire in my wife. 

4. MEM you raise many great points. I wish I disagreed with you more as you are among the most pessimistic about the prospects of this working out. One clarification - you say that she has a totally clear picture of how I feel and what I want but that I have no idea of how she feels and why she feels that way. Not entirely true - I know how she feels - she does not currently feel the kind of attraction and desire for me she used to feel and that makes her not want to be sexual or intimate with me. She fears that any form of physical touch will lead me on to believe she wants to be sexual. And somehow she has managed to bury whatever sexual urges she has in an effort to turn our marriage into a purely platonic co-parenting friendship. Painful to acknowledge but that's it in a nutshell. You referenced needing to come up with the easiest route to get to the truth - I respect your view that the speech about maybe we're just not compatible,we'll both be fine, if it's over let's accept it and part as friends ... is the fastest route but I'm not quite ready to act on that just yet.

5. Not sure what FOO acronym stands for?? ... No history of abuse.

6. Someone suggested a 6th choice of her making the rest of the marriage so good that I don't mind the lack of sex. Truth is it's really damn good beyond the sex - which is why I am working so hard to get the sex part figured out. What would make me happy enough to stay in a sexless marriage? I'm not sure anything could. Perhaps if the non-sexual intimacy - touching, hugging, kissing etc - was flowing properly I would consider staying but pretty likely that if that started to work the sex would naturally follow.

7. How often does she self pleasure? Oh how I would love to know. My guess is next to never. This is hard to put into words but I believe she is deep down a highly sexual woman but between my inability to provide her with the right kind of sexual leadership and her own insecurities about her sexuality, I think she has found a new comfort zone in her current sexless state. Decided it's perfectly fine to not be sexual and just be happy with the life she has. I think she doesn't see the upside of a blissful sexual renaissance as attainable or worth the effort required to get there in the event it doesn't materialize. She'd rather stick with sexless status quo.

8. Open marriage discussion never advanced into details because I dismissed it right away. When she brought it up it had more of a "to get me off her back" tone even though I was naturally suspicious that she was up to something and was implicitly requesting my approval. Highly confident that nothing ever came of it.


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## bc3543 (Aug 24, 2015)

"Someone suggested a 6th choice of her making the rest of the marriage so good that I don't mind the lack of sex. Truth is it's really damn good beyond the sex - which is why I am working so hard to get the sex part figured out. What would make me happy enough to stay in a sexless marriage? I'm not sure anything could."

^This. Most healthy men would agree with that.

My culture and morality basically says that its OK for me to buy/outsource pretty much anything (within the law) I need to be happy except for female emotional companionship and sex. Given the choice, I would rather have a wife that enjoys sex and an emotional relationship with me and pay for everything else - meals, housekeeping, childrearing, etc, etc than a wife who does all those things perfectly but won't have sex. Additionally, when sex dies in our marriage, the emotional connection generally dries up as well.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GFL,
This style of communication will get you to a good outcome one way or the other. A clear eyed, unflinchingly honest assessment. 

It's not my intent to be pessimistic. I do strongly believe, that the lack of non sexual physical affection needs to be dealt with and fully resolved before anything else. 

Because it's caused either by (1) an involuntary physical aversion, or (2) a lack of trust. Meaning, she doesn't believe that you see touch as a discrete activity separate from sex. 

If you can get to the point where affection feels good to her - it makes sex a whole lot easier. 

If touch itself, creates anxiety, it makes sex itself difficult or impossible to enjoy. 

With the best intentions in the world, people sometimes create an emotionally claustrophobic situation inside a marriage. What you describe could be the result of such a thing. 

To fix such a thing, you would have to do some stuff that likely would feel quite unnatural to you. Not cruel. Not abusive. Just unnatural. 





GoodFunLife said:


> Much good dialogue over past couple days - I appreciate the time and energy and helpful perspective many of you have put into this. A number of comments made and questions asked that I am going to try to respond to here -
> 
> 1. Point was made (by Mary I think) that the pressure she is feeling is not so much her concern about being able to please me sexually but her choosing to place more importance on her individual need to be happy than on her desire for a successful relationship and her knowing that a marriage can't expect to survive this way. Keen insight - I'd never thought of it this way and agree that this may be part of what's going on with her.
> 
> ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

It's hard to agree that it's pretty damn good other than the sex, when there is almost no non sexual affection. 





bc3543 said:


> "Someone suggested a 6th choice of her making the rest of the marriage so good that I don't mind the lack of sex. Truth is it's really damn good beyond the sex - which is why I am working so hard to get the sex part figured out. What would make me happy enough to stay in a sexless marriage? I'm not sure anything could."
> 
> ^This. Most healthy men would agree with that.
> 
> My culture and morality basically says that its OK for me to buy/outsource pretty much anything (within the law) I need to be happy except for female emotional companionship and sex. Given the choice, I would rather have a wife that enjoys sex and an emotional relationship with me and pay for everything else - meals, housekeeping, childrearing, etc, etc than a wife who does all those things perfectly but won't have sex. Additionally, when sex dies in our marriage, the emotional connection generally dries up as well.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> WOM,
> John,
> I give you a lot of latitude because I believe your situation is awful. That said, your inability to cede a reasonable point can be tiresome.....


Reasonable point?

In her early biking days Dr. J2 decided to go reeeeally fast and kept heckling me to go faster. On a turn I slowed down, she did not, and she went off the road landing on a mountain of mulch. After b!tching that I go too fast it occurred to her that she should not be going this fast and actually slowed down. Problem solved.

You can't have SKIN's if the consequences of the imbalance are irrelevant, or if the perceived imbalance does not detract from the activity overall. If it does, then its a self correcting problem. 

Also, handling inconsequential SKIN's is not a predictor of how important SKIN's are handled. That's my point, tiring as it may be.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

> 1. Point was made (by Mary I think) that the pressure she is feeling is not so much her concern about being able to please me sexually but her choosing to place more importance on her individual need to be happy than on her desire for a successful relationship and her knowing that a marriage can't expect to survive this way. Keen insight - I'd never thought of it this way and agree that this may be part of what's going on with her.


It certainly is. The question becomes, again, why? 



> 2. Physical touch and non-sexual intimacy. Several comments about this and they all resonate. In many ways I miss this as much or more than I miss the actual sex. I agree that there is a lot wrong with a marriage where common touch and non-sexual intimacy is unwelcome.


Once again, why?



> 3. Emotional connection. Many people lump this in with touch and intimacy but I actually see it as different. Despite all our issues I think we do have a strong emotional connection and I think she thinks we do too. We are each other's first and most often immediate contact whenever anything of significance pops up - kids, dog, work, family, health ... we lean on each other and are comfortable opening up and venting; there is really nothing we hide or choose not to discuss relating to matters outside the bedroom, even when it's a thorny or complex situation. So I actually see us as having a strong emotional connection, but unfortunately not the kind that fuels attraction and desire in my wife.


That is because you have conditioned yourself to accept any "support" offered. Unfortunately, these things, while needed, are nothing that you can't do yourself outside time or skill constraints. If you have to take the dog to the vet, or she has the flu, that's something you do. I see it as duty more than I see it as support. 



> 4. MEM you raise many great points. I wish I disagreed with you more as you are among the most pessimistic about the prospects of this working out. One clarification - you say that she has a totally clear picture of how I feel and what I want but that I have no idea of how she feels and why she feels that way. Not entirely true - I know how she feels - she does not currently feel the kind of attraction and desire for me she used to feel and that makes her not want to be sexual or intimate with me. She fears that any form of physical touch will lead me on to believe she wants to be sexual. And somehow she has managed to bury whatever sexual urges she has in an effort to turn our marriage into a purely platonic co-parenting friendship. Painful to acknowledge but that's it in a nutshell. You referenced needing to come up with the easiest route to get to the truth - I respect your view that the speech about maybe we're just not compatible,we'll both be fine, if it's over let's accept it and part as friends ... is the fastest route but I'm not quite ready to act on that just yet.


And once again, why? you seem to be giving her a LOT of the benefit of the doubt. Maybe when the nine months turn into twelve, and more, you may reconsider. 

As a minimum she should be straightforward with you and explain - in her own way - why she's done with sex and intimacy, why she disregards your feelings so blatantly yet she expects you to tend to her. All you have right now is actions. But there is time to actually hear the words from her - and for her to hear herself telling you those words. 

Once you go there those words are not unsaid. I've been there. And despite Dr. J2's best efforts to 'reel me back' Elvis has left the building for good. I'm not suggesting you do this but I'm suggesting you have a serious heart to heart, not the duty style "I know how you feel" type semi-monologue.


> 6. Someone suggested a 6th choice of her making the rest of the marriage so good that I don't mind the lack of sex. Truth is it's really damn good beyond the sex - which is why I am working so hard to get the sex part figured out. What would make me happy enough to stay in a sexless marriage? I'm not sure anything could. Perhaps if the non-sexual intimacy - touching, hugging, kissing etc - was flowing properly I would consider staying but pretty likely that if that started to work the sex would naturally follow.


Seems to me you're channeling Copper Top here. The infamous "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play" ??? I thought I had a storybook marriage too. Wildly successful careers, great kids, awesome material goods, a wife who knows how to cook and can spread 20 cubic yards of mulch alone on a weekend, and brings home six figures. What could possibly go wrong? 

It seems to me your vision of the present is simply based on acclimation. The urge comes and goes, yea. Tough. Today Dr. J2 was in her death throes (read, really bad cold) and asked for her nasal spray (she's squirmish). So here she is, wearing a silk nightgown in a rather interesting pose that leaves nothing to the imagination (at our age 0 ) and what did I do? squirt squirt - squirt squirt (the nasal spray > ) and I was gone. Yea. It would have been nice but there's bigger issues at play.



> 7. How often does she self pleasure? Oh how I would love to know. My guess is next to never. This is hard to put into words but I believe she is deep down a highly sexual woman but between my inability to provide her with the right kind of sexual leadership and her own insecurities about her sexuality, I think she has found a new comfort zone in her current sexless state. Decided it's perfectly fine to not be sexual and just be happy with the life she has. I think she doesn't see the upside of a blissful sexual renaissance as attainable or worth the effort required to get there in the event it doesn't materialize. She'd rather stick with sexless status quo.


Highly sexual and 'never'??? does not compute.



> 8. Open marriage discussion never advanced into details because I dismissed it right away. When she brought it up it had more of a "to get me off her back" tone even though I was naturally suspicious that she was up to something and was implicitly requesting my approval. Highly confident that nothing ever came of it.


Or has the PI ready.


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Not sure if this has any applicability here but...

There was a point a few years ago where frequency was abysmal and non-sexual touch was down to a very perfunctory kiss before bed, practically a peck on the cheek. When I say abysmal I mean maybe 8 times a year with a gap or two of three months. Eventually I recognized an annual pattern related to work and other stress. 

Anyway, at some point I decided this pattern had to be broken. The first step for me was the good night kiss which I first worked on making more passionate and later started extending. It took a few months. More than once she'd pull away and I'd hold her there and tell her, I'm not finished yet. We're only talking a few seconds, generally if you go 10 seconds a good kiss changes. So the I'm not finished yet was a hey, don't pull away after 3 . 

That was a 3 or 4 month 'battle', in qoutes because no real arguing was involved. Then we worked back to sex more than once a month and after that an actual blowout about frequency and her tendency to backtrack to 'once a month if you are lucky'.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

The point made about the salt in the cooking analogy. 




john117 said:


> Reasonable point?
> 
> In her early biking days Dr. J2 decided to go reeeeally fast and kept heckling me to go faster. On a turn I slowed down, she did not, and she went off the road landing on a mountain of mulch. After b!tching that I go too fast it occurred to her that she should not be going this fast and actually slowed down. Problem solved.
> 
> ...


----------



## NotEasy (Apr 19, 2015)

GoodFunLife said:


> ...
> 5. Not sure what FOO acronym stands for?? ... No history of abuse.
> ...


FOO Family Of Origin, eg how they were brought up, which sets what they think in normal and good or what they avoid. We all get a baseline set by our FOO, but might choose to change it. 
Normally it doesn't imply abuse.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

GFL--can you describe for us the conversation you had with your wife where she indicated she wants to resume sex? Who brought the issue up? How would you describe her attitude during that conversation? Dutiful? Emotional? Resigned?


What if you were to have another conversation with her--this time instead of talking about resuming sex--put sex on the back-burner temporarily and discuss resuming non-sexual touch. Try to make her understand that for you this is separate, but just as meaningful.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

MEM - Your quote below really resonated -

"If you can get to the point where affection feels good to her - it makes sex a whole lot easier. 

If touch itself, creates anxiety, it makes sex itself difficult or impossible to enjoy."

Curious to hear more about what kind of unusual stuff you think could help fix this.

I'm open minded and thick skinned so don't hold back ...

Had some pleasant non-sexual touch last night. Not reading too much into it but felt a good vibe.

Fozzy I like your idea and may give that a try. The context of the conversations were about when she felt comfortable resuming - one conceptual and one a specific request that led to her saying not ready yet and that counseling might help us ease back in. In each case the tone was straightforward, not negative, her acknowledging that at some point we are going to be sexual again.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GFL, you're beating around the proverbial bush here along with Mrs. GFL. Next thing you know you need a diplomat, not a counselor, to negotiate a framework which will establish the process by which you will decide to see a counselor which will hopefully turn on sex again.

That's not how it works.

You still don't know why she's behaving this way. You also seem to think that there's a magic spell that you can cast that will fix her.

I was you in 2013.

I would drive my Mini Cooper happily thinking, "dude, this is easy. I have a bleeping doctorate in psychology (not the useful kind as it turns out ), how hard can it be?" 

A year of TAM and I was still singing "Fa la la la lah it's just around the corner".

Nope.

And that was with full knowledge of why. 

By later in 2014 I decided to bail out and I'm counting paychecks - mine and hers - till May 2017. 

I'm not telling you to do the same. I'm simply telling you to know / learn what's going on and decide for yourself if the ultimate goal is to have sex again on her terms (not even the magical 1x a month...) or on your terms or on a compromise or never again.

By focusing on a single or infrequent happy outcome you stop focusing on what it takes to re-establish a successful long term relationship that includes all kinds of intimacy.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Make a list of all the things you do that - perhaps look to her like approval seeking behaviors. 

Some are verbal, some non verbal. If you need examples, I'll provide, but it's a better exercise if you can figure this out solo. 

By the way - in an emotionally balanced marriage approval seeking behaviors are completely normal. In an unbalanced marriage they become toxic. 

Now make a contrasting list. These are her behaviors towards you, that can reasonably be seen as approval seeking. 







GoodFunLife said:


> MEM - Your quote below really resonated -
> 
> "If you can get to the point where affection feels good to her - it makes sex a whole lot easier.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GFL,

It's considered impolite to invite someone for dinner and than not even be home when they show up. 

Comparable to asking for feedback and then Ghosting. 






GoodFunLife said:


> MEM - Your quote below really resonated -
> 
> "If you can get to the point where affection feels good to her - it makes sex a whole lot easier.
> 
> ...


----------



## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

MEM - well played ... apologies, haven't had a chance to post a reply.

I think I see where you're going with this - needy, approval seeking behavior is a huge attraction and desire killer. Both lists are actually quite short though mine was much longer a year ago before I started getting my house in order. Mine would include things like helping out around the house, helping with kids, wardrobe choices ... things that I truly enjoy doing and are not from my perspective approval seeking but could appear to be from hers. Her list is even shorter - making me dinner when I get home.

No doubt even after all the behavioral changes she remains the more self-validated of the two of us.

But I'm guessing there may be more that you have in mind ...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GFL,
This is where the magic is or is not. Inside this dynamic. Which is sometimes clear and others not. 

Im going to have to ask you to take a leap of faith here. And accept that what I'm writing is core belief stuff. And it isn't based on what I WANT the answers to be, it's based on observation over time. 

Sometimes it's helpful to bracket a scenario by illustrating both the mechanics and the subtext of two extremes. 

Here we are - in an average kitchen in an average house - the kids are not home. Just the man and his wife. 

Scenario 1: 
As his wife walks by, the man gropes her breast. The subtext is quite simply: I'm horny. This is an 'all about me' move for the man. 

Scenario 2: 
The wife is watching tv - her back to him. He comes up and softly wraps his arms around her. Now the geometry is worth noting. She can't really hug him 'back', becuase he's behind her. Her only two moves are acceptance and rejection. The hug in this case: is an all about her move. It's not a request for approval. It's a SHOW of approval. 

---------
I can't speak for anyone else, but that dynamic is pervasive for us. 

We don't say: I love you (when what we really mean is: do you love me). 

And that doesn't mean - M2 can't ask: 
but do you love me? (In the most irresistible voice ever)

She can. And does. Typically after she's been difficult or gotten into some mischief. And I say what's true which is: totally

Note the difference here. When I say or show: I love you - it really IS all about you. 

When she asks: do you love me? She's asking for approval, but doing it directly - so that's good with me. 

When she says 'I love you' it's not a request. Not a question. It's an all about you style of message. 

I don't hug her so she'll hug me back. The hug is a give, not a request. And certainly not the first step towards sex. Having the higher drive, I mostly let her come to me. When she slides her hand down to my azz - that's a cue. 

Reason I separated affection and sex a long time ago - didn't want the one to adversely effect the other. 





GoodFunLife said:


> MEM - well played ... apologies, haven't had a chance to post a reply.
> 
> I think I see where you're going with this - needy, approval seeking behavior is a huge attraction and desire killer. Both lists are actually quite short though mine was much longer a year ago before I started getting my house in order. Mine would include things like helping out around the house, helping with kids, wardrobe choices ... things that I truly enjoy doing and are not from my perspective approval seeking but could appear to be from hers. Her list is even shorter - making me dinner when I get home.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> GFL,
> This is where the magic is or is not. Inside this dynamic. Which is sometimes clear and others not.
> 
> Im going to have to ask you to take a leap of faith here. And accept that what I'm writing is core belief stuff. And it isn't based on what I WANT the answers to be, it's based on observation over time.
> ...


MEM, I think I'm missing something. You observe this, it's a core belief, it's based on observation - but it might only apply to you. You've lost me.

I see the request/show stuff, but I wonder, is this something most people simply aren't aware/observant enough to perceive, never mind act on.



> . Her only two moves are acceptance and rejection.


Her third move is indifference, and in that position barely distinguishable.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Sawney,

I've missed you old friend. You're still as sharp as ever. 

I'll try to clarify. Because my post was unintentionally ambiguous .




Sawney Beane said:


> MEM, I think I'm missing something. You observe this, it's a core belief, it's based on observation - but it might only apply to you. You've lost me.
> 
> I see the request/show stuff, but I wonder, is this something most people simply aren't aware/observant enough to perceive, never mind act on.
> 
> ...


----------



## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Clarifications - in response to Sawneys comments. 

These are core beliefs based on personal experience and patterns I've noticed from a large pool of posts and threads on TAM. 

When I hug her, she has 3 options: 
- rejection (this could be conveyed by a stiffening of posture)
- acceptance (this is conveyed by the melting back into me - total relaxation of large muscle groups - plus typically some vocalization - a deep sigh of contentment 
- indifference - while possible this would be a sort of mid point reaction. I've never gotten it. I do think the absence of acceptance, would reflect a lack of enjoyment for her. 

So perhaps, in this context I might say there is happy acceptance, which is the melt back. And then there is any other response. The lack of happy acceptance would cause me to immediately stop. 

I can't claim it's all about her - if I persist without being welcomed. 






MEM11363 said:


> GFL,
> This is where the magic is or is not. Inside this dynamic. Which is sometimes clear and others not.
> 
> Im going to have to ask you to take a leap of faith here. And accept that what I'm writing is core belief stuff. And it isn't based on what I WANT the answers to be, it's based on observation over time.
> ...


----------



## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Sawney,
> 
> I've missed you old friend. You're still as sharp as ever.
> 
> I'll try to clarify. Because my post was unintentionally ambiguous .


You are/were never emotionally ambigious, MEM. It's been a whle, and not a happy time.


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## Sawney Beane (May 1, 2011)

MEM11363 said:


> Clarifications - in response to Sawneys comments.
> 
> These are core beliefs based on personal experience and patterns I've noticed from a large pool of posts and threads on TAM.
> 
> ...


OK, MEM, this clarifies the situation/circumstances, but I suppose the question is still:
"So what?"
You can see the situation, but is it telling you anything useful? 

And if you stop: "So what?"

Are these observations/actions actually going to achive anything unless both the people involved are minutely self-aware?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SB,

To recap: The OP's marriage is characterized by a decent level of emotional intimacy, but it is almost entirely lacking in physical intimacy. That includes non sexual touch. As well as him going 9+ months without sex. 

I'm focusing in on the non sexual dynamic - because:
1. It's hard to fix your sex life if your wife doesn't especially enjoy your touch.
2. It's easier to fix non sexual intimacy than to fix a broken sexual relationship. 

Non sexual affection only requires: trust and a modest understanding of your partners response patterns. 

Sex - requires that plus some other stuff.

I'm not generally in favor of sexual moratoriums - BUT - if the non sexual affection is also missing from the marriage - a moratorium is the perfect situation to fix that. Because it removes any fear that one will lead to the other.

Coming back to non sexual affection - NSA - the question becomes - WHY is a partne avoiding it? 




Sawney Beane said:


> OK, MEM, this clarifies the situation/circumstances, but I suppose the question is still:
> "So what?"
> You can see the situation, but is it telling you anything useful?
> 
> ...


----------



## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

MEM - I'm following you but I'm not sure your example applies in our case. In different settings I get some of each of the three reactions. Last week we went out on two dates and there was a good amount of non-sexual affection while we were out - rubbing her leg in the car, hand on her shoulder at the party ... and when I get home from work I rub her shoulder or give her a hug or kiss. All of which she usually accepts or at worst meets with indifference because she knows there is no possibility of it becoming sexual. It's only when she thinks I'm trying to escalate when we are alone in bed that she rejects me instantaneously. As she is not a physical touch or affection-driven person, she rarely offers any of this to me. It used to bug me but then I realized that's just not how she's wired.


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

Some related musings on the topic of sexual and non-sexual intimacy ...

Key ingredients of a great marriage in my opinion are love, respect, trust, appreciation and desire. If you're lucky enough to have all 5 of them working, you are most likely having really good mutually enjoyable sex. If you have the first 4 working, the 5th (desire) should flow naturally and if desire isn't showing up, then most likely one of the first four is not working the way it should be. I have never independently questioned my wife's love, respect, trust or appreciation for me - as I've referenced throughout this thread the rest of our marriage is really solid. But when I peel it back and examine the way we related sexually for the past several years I can see that I lost her trust and respect along the way (just sexually not elsewhere) and the scar tissue runs so deep that it is still blocking her ability to feel natural desire for me. Hence the moratorium taking so long and my deciding to give her the time she needs for her desire to come back. And as MEM points out, to get all the non-sexual forms of intimacy flowing smoothly before trying to be sexual again.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GFL,

Then let's focus on the mechanics as those are easier to quantify.

1. Who typically says ILY first? 
2. Who typically suggests spending time together?
3. Who is volunteering more acts of service (the optional stuff - not day to day requirements)
4. Who's initiating touch? 
5. How often - does she sacrifice for you? The movie chosen, the restaurant, the vacation destination? 

How is your wife SHOWING YOU, through actions that you are important to her. What is she doing that puts YOU first. 

How often are you two physically playful with each other?




GoodFunLife said:


> MEM - I'm following you but I'm not sure your example applies in our case. In different settings I get some of each of the three reactions. Last week we went out on two dates and there was a good amount of non-sexual affection while we were out - rubbing her leg in the car, hand on her shoulder at the party ... and when I get home from work I rub her shoulder or give her a hug or kiss. All of which she usually accepts or at worst meets with indifference because she knows there is no possibility of it becoming sexual. It's only when she thinks I'm trying to escalate when we are alone in bed that she rejects me instantaneously. As she is not a physical touch or affection-driven person, she rarely offers any of this to me. It used to bug me but then I realized that's just not how she's wired.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> I'm focusing in on the non sexual dynamic - because:
> 1. It's hard to fix your sex life if your wife doesn't especially enjoy your touch.
> 2. It's easier to fix non sexual intimacy than to fix a broken sexual relationship.


Five star generalization here in #2 in my experience. #1 is accurate.

If someone is seriously averse to sexual intimacy, there's a good chance that they will perceive any kind of touch as a prelude to -horrors- sex. Their emotional processing simply can't fathom that there's a difference. So physical but non sexual touch is not welcome any more than sex is.

The corollary is that the partner who welcomes non sexual touch but puts up a Maginot Line's worth of barriers to actual sex may simply be using non sexual touch not as a prelude to sex or as a complement to sex but as a replacement for sex.

It also does not work if there's an aversion to touch due to physiological, psychosocial, or psychological issues.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

GoodFunLife said:


> But when I peel it back and examine the way we related sexually for the past several years I can see that I lost her trust and respect along the way (just sexually not elsewhere) and the scar tissue runs so deep that it is still blocking her ability to feel natural desire for me. Hence the moratorium taking so long and my deciding to give her the time she needs for her desire to come back. And as MEM points out, to get all the non-sexual forms of intimacy flowing smoothly before trying to be sexual again.


Unless you put on 50 lb, stopped showering, or started bringing in Craig's List chicks, it's unlikely her sexual respect for you diminished but the rest of respect did not.

Respect is an atomic quantity, or singular quantity. It's not like IQ or EQ or what not. Either you respect the other person wholly and trust them or you don't. 

I am certain my wife "respects" and "trusts" my QDA expertise. But I'm not going to extrapolate that everything else is fine. She "trusts" my QDA expertise because it's convenient for her and she doesn't want to be up all night trying to understand it, not because she trusts the rest of me.

While you're feeling layers, start adding the value of convenience, security, and other non emotional factors to the view of your wife and vice versa. Then cancel those out and see what you have left.

(QDA - qualitative data analysis, one of my favorite topics, it's a kind of data analysis used in psychology, marketing, business...)


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## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

john117 said:


> Lolz. Had me going till the "strong marriage" part
> 
> To the original poster... Apathy or withdrawal do not fix issues. Human memory is not like a USB stick that can be formatted. What you have now works for her, so you're stuck on two different paradigms.
> 
> Start by figuring out why she feels pressured and why she dislikes sex, and to what extent. Only by knowing that you can move forward. If she went without sex for 9 months she can and likely will go for another 9. Call her out and see what happens.


She doesn't dislike sex.

She only dislikes sex with him.

Asking her why? Formula for complete failure and capitulation.

She's not attracted to him. If he works on being more attractive, the flames may rekindle.

But, after nearly a year? Doubtful.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

ReturntoZero said:


> She doesn't dislike sex.
> 
> She only dislikes sex with him.


And we know this because...


----------



## ReturntoZero (Aug 31, 2015)

john117 said:


> And we know this because...


If Brad Pitt appeared before her naked and ready to have sex - would she still "dislike" sex?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

His decision tree looks like this: 

I can either get us to a pattern of NSA that she likes. Or I can't. If I can't - we are baked. If I CAN, then whatever communication style worked for NSA, gets applied to sex. 

When they talk about this stuff I don't believe she really tells him anything. Meaning - she says stuff like: I just don't like it. Or I'm just not like that. 

But underneath the brush off is a real reason or reasons. 

And the OP is going to have to get her to believe he wants to know why. 

For example, if M2 had suggested an open marriage to me I'd have asked her:
- Is that a sincere suggestion, or are you testing my commitment level?
- Do you want an open marriage so I'll stop pestering YOU for sex?
- Or because YOU have a sex drive and just don't much like having sex with me? And fully want to enjoy the ability to hook up with others?

She suggested the idea more than once. Makes me think there was more to it than a test of his commitment level. 

Instead of reaching gently into her head and trying to understand where she was coming from. He just said: nope not interested

I'm - trying to be tactful here - but - I'm concerned that she believes the OP 'can't handle the truth'. Whatever it is. 








john117 said:


> Five star generalization here in #2 in my experience. #1 is accurate.
> 
> If someone is seriously averse to sexual intimacy, there's a good chance that they will perceive any kind of touch as a prelude to -horrors- sex. Their emotional processing simply can't fathom that there's a difference. So physical but non sexual touch is not welcome any more than sex is.
> 
> ...


----------



## AACoupledUp (Feb 3, 2016)

Wow, this actually sounds sad. =( 

I wish I could give you a hug, sir. I can't imagine not having sex with my husband for 9 months. We've experienced some hard times from health, to finance and everything in between. Her not wanting to have sex isn't the problem, it's a symptom.I have a strong marriage and we didn't have to stop having sex to get there. Best of luck.
Check out AACoupledUp on youtube. 
https://youtu.be/3onEqcvBAm0


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

MEM your decision tree is exactly where I am on this. I have no interest in having sex with her if I can tell she is completely detached and not into it. That was where we were a year ago and I'm not going back to that. I only want it if I feel her desire is real (hence the title of the thread) and starting with more genuine free-flowing NSI is the right idea.

One recent observation is that the less she feels me caring about whether or not we have sex the more accepting of my affection she seems to be. These are the moments when I think her attraction and desire is alive inside her, slowly beginning to rumble. The logic flow gets a bit mind-numbing but it's starting to make sense to me that through the entire hiatus even though I've rarely tried to initiate, I never really let go of my need for sex and I'm sure she has felt that. When I really let go of it and exude carefree indifference is when she lights up the most.

When this hiatus does finally end, it will likely be with her initiating and my teasing her, keeping it light and playful, making sure it's her attraction and desire that is triggering her to act not her guilty conscience deciding it's time to throw me a bone.

Answers to your questions:

1. Who typically says ILY first? 60/40 me

2. Who typically suggests spending time together? 60/40 her

3. Who is volunteering more acts of service (the optional stuff - not day to day requirements) 80/20 her

4. Who's initiating touch? 95/5 me

5. How often - does she sacrifice for you? The movie chosen, the restaurant, the vacation destination? Pretty often. She sticks to what's important to her but complies when she senses it's important to me.

How is your wife SHOWING YOU, through actions that you are important to her. What is she doing that puts YOU first. She could do more to prioritize US over HER and KIDS but she does plan things for us to do alone together.

How often are you two physically playful with each other? Not enough. Same issue of physical touch not being her love language.


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The difficulty is not the first bone. It's the second bone a reasonably brief period after the first bone.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GFL,
Really good. This level of situational awareness is so helpful over time. 






GoodFunLife said:


> MEM your decision tree is exactly where I am on this. I have no interest in having sex with her if I can tell she is completely detached and not into it. That was where we were a year ago and I'm not going back to that. I only want it if I feel her desire is real (hence the title of the thread) and starting with more genuine free-flowing NSI is the right idea.
> 
> One recent observation is that the less she feels me caring about whether or not we have sex the more accepting of my affection she seems to be. These are the moments when I think her attraction and desire is alive inside her, slowly beginning to rumble. The logic flow gets a bit mind-numbing but it's starting to make sense to me that through the entire hiatus even though I've rarely tried to initiate, I never really let go of my need for sex and I'm sure she has felt that. When I really let go of it and exude carefree indifference is when she lights up the most.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

I'll get straight to the point.

You are being played. For whatever reason she does not want to have sex with you. She has either lost attraction for you or there is someone on the side.

Simple as that. No normal healthy married human goes 9 months without sex.

Forget this nonsense she is feeding you that she feels pressured. She either wants you or she doesn't. Her choice is quite clear.

She might just be keeping you around because you support her or divorce from you would most likely collaspe her cosy little world that she has become accustomed too.

Does she keep a passcode on her phone, or supposedly work back late or go out with girlfriends a bit?


----------



## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I doubt the on the side scenario but you never know, esp if she's a good looker that cares for her appearance.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

GFL,
The real issue here is that she's not really willing to tell you WHY she'd prefer to not have sex with you anymore. 

And it's not possible for an outsider (like me) to know how much of this is chemistry vs. communication. 

If she simply isn't that attracted to you, but likes all the perks of being married, she will go to almost any length to avoid saying that. That's an example of a core chemistry issue. It isn't fixable and it's likely long standing. 

If the chemistry is decent (quite honestly it is at best decent or she'd be having sex with you), then you have a serious communication issue. Meaning she's afraid to say WHY the mechanics of sex itself are not enjoyable for her. 

At this point - after going so long without - the idea of sex feels alien to her. 

Absent a real plan (of yours) - she's going to continue to keep her own counsel and leave you in the dark. 

Even if this is about technique - which is fixable - you are going to have to jolt her out of her comfort zone to get any feedback. 

And technique starts outside the bedroom. With some edge. Playful edge. But - real - edge. Being overly cerebral - and overly verbal and overly gentle - is death to desire. 











GoodFunLife said:


> MEM your decision tree is exactly where I am on this. I have no interest in having sex with her if I can tell she is completely detached and not into it. That was where we were a year ago and I'm not going back to that. I only want it if I feel her desire is real (hence the title of the thread) and starting with more genuine free-flowing NSI is the right idea.
> 
> One recent observation is that the less she feels me caring about whether or not we have sex the more accepting of my affection she seems to be. These are the moments when I think her attraction and desire is alive inside her, slowly beginning to rumble. The logic flow gets a bit mind-numbing but it's starting to make sense to me that through the entire hiatus even though I've rarely tried to initiate, I never really let go of my need for sex and I'm sure she has felt that. When I really let go of it and exude carefree indifference is when she lights up the most.
> 
> ...


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> GFL,
> The real issue here is that she's not really willing to tell you WHY she'd prefer to not have sex with you anymore.
> 
> And it's not possible for an outsider (like me) to know how much of this is chemistry vs. communication.
> ...


GFL--this is important.

Read this for some pointers.

Robot Check


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

GoodFunLife said:


> When this hiatus does finally end, it will likely be with her initiating and my teasing her, keeping it light and playful, making sure it's her attraction and desire that is triggering her to act not her guilty conscience deciding it's time to throw me a bone.


Let me just throw this out there... WHAT IF when she finally ended the hiatus it was not you teasing her, but instead she teased herself in front of you and achieved multiple orgasms right in front of you while you watched. Nothing more and nothing less, only to demonstrate to you that she IS very capable of sexual desire and pleasure.

Would you find that MORE or LESS pleasurable than actually having sex with her if she was confident enough to share this but ONLY let you watch?

Regards,
Badsanta


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You'll see Martians parading on Michigan Avenue in Chicago before anyone sees a nine month hiatus person doing the above...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> You'll see Martians parading on Michigan Avenue in Chicago before anyone sees a nine month hiatus person doing the above...


*Hypothetical* @john117 *hypothetical*, just curios to know the answer to this question...


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

That would be much more pleasurable. But agree with John's Martian comment ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Well...


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## GoodFunLife (Apr 24, 2015)

Pleased to say the moratorium is over. Even more pleased to say that she exhibited real desire - not the check the box, throw him a bone vibe I used to feel. She initiated and after some playful teasing to make sure she really wanted it we were on our way. I have noticed a subtle shift in her behavior over the past couple weeks - she has been more accepting of non-sexual touch and hugs which has felt great. Things have been light and fun between us. I've been making a conscious effort to make sure she is no longer feeling the sense of responsibility about the sex & happiness equation and something seems to have clicked. Encouraging developments but just a start, we'll see where we go from here. 

Let's hope it's not another 10 months


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Great, congrats .

The next few weeks then again in about 6 months will tell.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

GoodFunLife said:


> I've been making a conscious effort to make sure she is no longer feeling the sense of responsibility about the sex & happiness equation and something seems to have clicked.


While this is great, you also want to build her confidence to be sexual with you. A big part of this may be that she wants to see how you behave when a conflict arises. You'll have to deal with it in a way to let her know that you strongly desire her, but at the same time not get upset if she wants to "test" you and ask for some space. 

Badsanta


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## Sports Fan (Aug 21, 2014)

I really hope you werent offered a bout of reset sex. 

In case your wondering reset sex is when your partner knows you a bordering on capsizing the marriage so in order to preserve their cosy little world which you provide they throw you a bone of sex in order to shut you up. In essence they have reset the clock and the countdown starts again


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

GoodFunLife said:


> I'm waiting for her reptile brain to kick in and spring her to life but so far the strong rational brain is preventing the animal in her from coming out to play ...


This is not going to work. Most women won't just have desire out of the blue from some deep part of their brain for no reason at all. You really think this? I don't know what you've been reading, but I gotta tell you that you are way off track on this one.


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