# Young men are having a lot less sex



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

But not young women. Discuss.

https://i0.wp.com/fabiusmaximus.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Celibacy-rates-of-young-men-by-year-in-America-WaPo.jpg?ssl=1


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

#metoo


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## CharlieParker (Aug 15, 2012)

Being discussed here https://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/432597-disconcerting.html#post19834601

I’d hit it.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Hmmmmm.....

Women are more independent, so they can be more selective.
Drop in testosterone levels.
Video games.
Porn.

Who knows? Lots of possibilities.

But it must add that it's incorrect to say young men are having less sex. After all, it takes two to tango and all those young women are having sex with someone (not counting homosexuals). So young men are having just as much sex as ever, it's just that that sex is concentrated among a smaller proportion of them. 

With that in mind, rather than seeing this as a negative, I'd say if you've got something on the ball these days, it's probably a good time to be a sexually active young man!


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Thinking about it again... It could indicate we are moving to more of a polyamorous society. Think about the 80/20 rule- 80% of females want the top 20% of males. This was tested on some dating site and ancestral lineage tracing bears this trend out too. The only reason the lower 80% find partners is because of the relatively recent construct of marriage. Women were somewhat dependent on men to survive up until more recently, so the 80% man could find a mate and pass on his DNA. But in the past, the 20% could have a harem of women and the 80% male would simply die off without offspring. 

Now, that career women are fairly common, women can pursue their hypergamous idea of competing for the top 20% without worrying about provisioning from an 80% male. Thus, all these incels.


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Thinking about it again... It could indicate we are moving to more of a polyamorous society. Think about the 80/20 rule- 80% of females want the top 20% of males. This was tested on some dating site and ancestral lineage tracing bears this trend out too. The only reason the lower 80% find partners is because of the relatively recent construct of marriage. Women were somewhat dependent on men to survive up until more recently, so the 80% man could find a mate and pass on his DNA. But in the past, the 20% could have a harem of women and the 80% male would simply die off without offspring.
> 
> Now, that career women are fairly common, women can pursue their hypergamous idea of competing for the top 20% without worrying about provisioning from an 80% male. Thus, all these incels.


I have thought of this too actually. 

Then it also dawned on me, that as a male I should try being more interesting. 

Currently not single.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

There are no cowboys anymore.

There are fewer warriors. maybe one percent.

Heroes are seen only in movies, life's real heroes are disparaged by Hollywood.

We don't want no heroes, they die young, they die broke, broken.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Cf7kwNK3PU


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

There are a lot of pathetic excuses for young men out there. I don't blame women trying to avoid them 

I don't go for hypergamy but I do see more women going after fewer men.

I have seen such worthless excuses for men that I just feel sad for young women.

It has occurred to me that some might even start choosing polygamy to be mated with a suitable man.

I'm against it but I can almost see it happening because of such pathetic examples of masculinity.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Not sure its that different:

Real cowboys herded cattle. Old west movie style gunfights were extremely rare. 

We need fewer warriors. In the past many "warriors" were not noble - they just killed efficiently. 

Heroes have always been rare, and I suspect for much of history we haven't every recognized most of them. The modern style of war doesn't leave as many opportunities for heroism. 




SunCMars said:


> There are no cowboys anymore.
> 
> There are fewer warriors. maybe one percent.
> 
> ...


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## [email protected] (Dec 23, 2017)

Women at the top of the pile can choose numerous partners. Men at the bottom can't. This leaves a substantial number of men unsexted. Low status, low income men never marry, but high status, high income women nearly always marry, and can choose from many suitors.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

It's because helicopter parent mommy taught them that mommy is the only one they should love ......


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> There are a lot of pathetic excuses for young men out there. I don't blame women trying to avoid them
> 
> I don't go for hypergamy but I do see more women going after fewer men.
> 
> ...


Aye..

Angry, rejected, these boys and men, they seeking to escape.
At pubs, behind gaming screens.

Releasing their frustrations with their own hands.
With temper tantrums, with semen at their feet.

Boys are now wanted to be neutral gendered, castrated by the political correct mistresses that legislate, that often teach in our schools, sometime at home.
Not so in the slums, in the ghettos. Ach, no. They end up in jails

Is it no wonder that games of war, games of thrones is practiced, is played in private? That is as close to being a male as one can get...today.

Games of making men eunuchs, making them girls is now practiced in public.

Most young boys who try to enter the Armed Forces are often rejected. 

Only twenty to twenty five percent, at the point of entry, readily meet the criteria. The rest go home rejected.
This, during peace times. 

In times of war, only two to ten percent are rejected.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Choice. Women can choose. They are no longer reliant on a man for their survival.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Choice. Women can choose. They are no longer reliant on a man for their survival.


My ancestral women were not reliant on men for survival either.

I honestly can't think of many of my female relatives that ever have been.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> My ancestral women were not reliant on men for survival either.
> 
> I honestly can't think of many of my female relatives that ever have been.


Lucky them!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Lucky them!


Celts.


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

tech-novelist said:


> but not young women. Discuss.
> 
> https://i0.wp.com/fabiusmaximus.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/celibacy-rates-of-young-men-by-year-in-america-wapo.jpg?ssl=1


mgtow.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

StillSearching said:


> mgtow.


It always strikes me funny that the vocal mgtow are the biggest mutants, as if they fact that they are going their own way would hurt anyone's feelings. Good riddance.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> It always strikes me funny that the vocal mgtow are the biggest mutants, as if they fact that they are going their own way would hurt anyone's feelings. Good riddance.


I agree. There are far more effective ways men can take control of their lives.

Both my sons are in demand. They haven't ever had trouble attracting women who would actually bend over backwards and walk on their hands for them.

I definitely believe the lack of strong men is making it too easy for my kids.

I wanted them to work a little harder at it. Hard work in relationships teaches good skills.

All these wussies are impairing my children's development.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I agree. There are far more effective ways men can take control of their lives.
> 
> Both my sons are in demand. They haven't ever had trouble attracting women who would actually bend over backwards and walk on their hands for them.
> 
> ...


It's nothing new. Social constraints and economic realities simply used to allow a "wuss", as you call him, to get married and get some measure of sex through pressure. That is much less the case now.


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> I agree. There are far more effective ways men can take control of their lives.
> 
> Both my sons are in demand. They haven't ever had trouble attracting women who would actually bend over backwards and walk on their hands for them.
> 
> ...


Just like it's too easy for women to survive, it's also too easy for men now. 

I believe that there is a concept like sexual market value. For men I have found the following got me more dates. 

Pushups are a good first start. 

Some form of martial arts training be it Karate, fencing, or even firearms related. 

Having a good career path full of honest work also helps. 

Reading would help their chances. Especially modern awareness. 

Oh and hobby's. Lots of them. Running, cycling, shooting, Jeep life, sports car life, family life, reading, charity events, 5k's and so on and so forth. 

Fortnite or whatever the kids play online today will only get you so far up the female chain and vice versa. 

To be fair, I have taken a lot of hits being a full time single Dad. I say this in terms of market value, however, when people see me owning a home and participating in everything above while being a Father. Usually the ones that follow are very interested in the long term committed life and not just fun. 

The final straw that got me where I am at now. Counseling, and deciding I worked hard enough on my career and goals and it was time to focus on developing my sense of humor. 

My last breakup was mutual and satisfying even if I didn't really want to initially. I knew I would find someone a decade younger who would just watch the direction I am headed and want in. That's where I seem to be currently at in my current relationship. I'm smitten, but she also bends over backwards.


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> "wuss", as you call him


#wgtow ....... and thank god they do ....... move them right along.......


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> It always strikes me funny that the vocal mgtow are the biggest mutants, as if they fact that they are going their own way would hurt anyone's feelings. Good riddance.


Mirror image of the most vocal radical militant feminists.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

SunCMars said:


> ConanHub said:
> 
> 
> > There are a lot of pathetic excuses for young men out there. I don't blame women trying to avoid them
> ...


That about sums it up, poetically.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> > It always strikes me funny that the vocal mgtow are the biggest mutants, as if they fact that they are going their own way would hurt anyone's feelings. Good riddance.
> ...


Tell them to saw off a limb or nose. That will help.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

Makes one wonder how much is a result of the idea of masculinity being distorted in the minds of young women?
Granted many young men are slightly effeminate, but not that large a proportion. 

Yet society idealizes the man who can walk away. Similar to people want what they can't have


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I agree. There are far more effective ways men can take control of their lives.
> 
> Both my sons are in demand. They haven't ever had trouble attracting women who would actually bend over backwards and walk on their hands for them.
> 
> ...


What constitutes a "strong man" is often not aiming in the best direction IMO.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> What constitutes a "strong man" is often not aiming in the best direction IMO.


My definition of strength probably coincides with yours.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

hope4family said:


> Just like it's too easy for women to survive, it's also too easy for men now.
> 
> I believe that there is a concept like sexual market value. For men I have found the following got me more dates.
> 
> ...


It's interesting you mentioned that having lots and lots of hobbies has gotten you more dates. I'm in my mid 40s and when I was online dating (and IRL for that matter), a man with lots of hobbies was an automatic no for me. Hobbies take up free time and having lots of them takes up a lot of free time. That makes me think they really don't have a whole lot of time to dedicate to dating with the intent of a long term committed relationship. Seemed doubly so for the men who stated they were single dads. 

I am wondering if it's possible the attraction quality is more target audience focused? I'm not a man but I could see having lots of hobbies as an attractive quality for women in their (20s and 30s) with little to no responsibilities like kids, house, demanding career, etc and who do not have hobbies of their own and want to piggy back off of someone else's. 

Maybe I just can't see it because I too have a kid, own a home, have a successful if demanding career, maintain friendships, etc.. and have struggled to find time for A hobby (much less lots) that is not a complete time suck.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Tell them to saw off a limb or nose. That will help.


Missed the point. My youngest son looks like Channing, is fairly lazy, works but doesn't do much around the house, is not ambitious and is very slowly becoming responsible for his children.

He should not be able to attract the level of women he does.

His fiance had a psychology degree before graduating high school, is very attractive and motivated and ambitious.

My son should not have been able to seriously get her to consider him.

I believe the lack of competition isn't doing him any good.

He had girls mailing him phones in high school for crying out loud! These were cute girls who were not lacking attention from other men.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

red oak said:


> Makes one wonder how much is a result of the idea of masculinity being distorted in the minds of young women?
> Granted many young men are slightly effeminate, but not that large a proportion.
> 
> Yet society idealizes the man who can walk away. Similar to people want what they can't have


I guess you are looking at way different population that I am looking at. 

Because that is not what I see. I see young men, as complete wussies in almost ever aspect... 

Not everyone but way too many. 

Here is the deal, I am almost 55, not fat in any way but I could be more cut if I wanted to. 

I know I am not OLD but good grief, I am not young by any means. I am more of a man, and way more masculine then about 65 to 75 percent of the young men that I run into on a daily basis. Esp at my office. 

I routinely get looks and flirted with by woman of all ages. 

So you tell me what that is about... In my opinion it is about woman of all ages wanting manly me... 

It is not because I am really that pretty any more...


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## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

Lila said:


> It's interesting you mentioned that having lots and lots of hobbies has gotten you more dates. I'm in my mid 40s and when I was online dating (and IRL for that matter), a man with lots of hobbies was an automatic no for me. Hobbies take up free time and having lots of them takes up a lot of free time. That makes me think they really don't have a whole lot of time to dedicate to dating with the intent of a long term committed relationship. Seemed doubly so for the men who stated they were single dads.
> 
> I am wondering if it's possible the attraction quality is more target audience focused? I'm not a man but I could see having lots of hobbies as an attractive quality for women in their (20s and 30s) with little to no responsibilities like kids, house, demanding career, etc and who do not have hobbies of their own and want to piggy back off of someone else's.
> 
> Maybe I just can't see it because I too have a kid, own a home, have a successful if demanding career, maintain friendships, etc.. and have struggled to find time for A hobby (much less lots) that is not a complete time suck.


I think in modern lifestyle, being a parent controls you, just like your hobby's can. So in that case you are very much correct. That being said, I had more then my share of "our schedules just never meet up" vs "I can do every night this week." 

Having my own agendas and direction in life has given me the ability to use the phrase "hey I got time x / y nights for a date." That's not a dishonest "seem busy" approach. Overall, being a complete person has been way more successful then saying I am playing video games 3x this week. 

Which more so then what I am saying, it is more who I am. If I really like you, i'll course correct. Some of those hobbies will fall to the side, or maybe you will have a shared interest. 

Either way, it's a win/win. Context, I am in my 30's. Having far more luck dating in my late 20's early 30's then in my mid 20's. Early 20's was easy for me to.


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## red oak (Oct 26, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> I guess you are looking at way different population that I am looking at.
> 
> Because that is not what I see. I see young men, as complete wussies in almost ever aspect...
> 
> ...


LOL. Our demographics are certainly different. 

I live rural. Hunting, fishing, building things, whether cars, barns, etc plus working cattle is still fairly common, therefore most young men here are still fairly rough and tumble, but decent, yet I see more of the young women intrigued by the "baddest" type boys who start trouble and/or have a chip on their shoulders, which I would consider dregs.

We are usually 10-20yrs behind society trends in our neck of the woods. I figure it's on the way.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

hope4family said:


> I think in modern lifestyle, being a parent controls you, just like your hobby's can. So in that case you are very much correct. That being said, I had more then my share of "our schedules just never meet up" vs "I can do every night this week."
> 
> Having my own agendas and direction in life has given me the ability to use the phrase "hey I got time x / y nights for a date." That's not a dishonest "seem busy" approach. Overall, being a complete person has been way more successful then saying I am playing video games 3x this week.
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing your age. Gives your post perspective. 

I do think there is a huge gap in opinions on this topic depending on age and life experiences. For example, when you mentioned playing video games 3xs a week, I couldn't relate. I don't know any man my age and older who games but do know it's a big thing for younger people.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Here is an article I came across on the topic with 1 POV:

https://www.thepostmillennial.com/in-defense-of-sex-millennials-should-really-try-having-it/



> After a Washington Post article came out showing a decline in how much sex the kids are having, there’s been mad pontification on just why the drought is happening. Could be porn, video games, fear, Instagram, mean girls, #MeToo. Everyone on Twitter has a take. I don’t have some great understanding as to why the kids aren’t screwing, in fact I don’t understand it at all, but what I do have is a defense of sex, and reasons why millennials should really try having it.
> 
> There are loads of good things about sex, and they far outweigh the bad ones. Getting off is great, but it’s not even the best part. Intimacy with another person, a person who you care about, who cares about you, ideally a person who you love, and who loves you, a person who is kind to you, who you are kind too, can make you feel like you really matter to someone who matters to you, and there’s no better feeling in the world.
> 
> ...


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> I guess you are looking at way different population that I am looking at.
> 
> Because that is not what I see. I see young men, as complete wussies in almost ever aspect...
> 
> ...


48 and the same.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Lila said:


> It's interesting you mentioned that having lots and lots of hobbies has gotten you more dates. I'm in my mid 40s and when I was online dating (and IRL for that matter), a man with lots of hobbies was an automatic no for me. Hobbies take up free time and having lots of them takes up a lot of free time. That makes me think they really don't have a whole lot of time to dedicate to dating with the intent of a long term committed relationship. Seemed doubly so for the men who stated they were single dads.
> 
> I am wondering if it's possible the attraction quality is more target audience focused? I'm not a man but I could see having lots of hobbies as an attractive quality for women in their (20s and 30s) with little to no responsibilities like kids, house, demanding career, etc and who do not have hobbies of their own and want to piggy back off of someone else's.
> 
> Maybe I just can't see it because I too have a kid, own a home, have a successful if demanding career, maintain friendships, etc.. and have struggled to find time for A hobby (much less lots) that is not a complete time suck.


I can see someone being overloaded.

However, for me, someone who didn't want a partner with hobbies "so they could spend more time with me" would just feel like a high-maintenance, smothering person who needed my 24/7 undivided attention. I wouldn't want to be the only thing in their life and vice versa because it's unhealthy.

But that is because my kids are grown. If my kids were young, someone with young kids and 5 hobbies would be a red flag.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> I can see someone being overloaded.
> 
> However, for me, someone who didn't want a partner with hobbies "so they could spend more time with me" would just feel like a high-maintenance, smothering person who needed my 24/7 undivided attention. I wouldn't want to be the only thing in their life and vice versa because it's unhealthy.
> 
> But that is because my kids are grown. If my kids were young, someone with young kids and 5 hobbies would be a red flag.


I think it all comes down to time. I am one of those people that needs 15 hours of undivided time a week to feel connected to an SO. I just don't feel connected otherwise.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Lila said:


> I think it all comes down to time. I am one of those people that needs 15 hours of undivided time a week to feel connected to an SO. I just don't feel connected otherwise.


This is very important. It is important to know what you need and not compromise.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I can see someone being overloaded.
> 
> However, for me, someone who didn't want a partner with hobbies "so they could spend more time with me" would just feel like a high-maintenance, smothering person who needed my 24/7 undivided attention. I wouldn't want to be the only thing in their life and vice versa because it's unhealthy.
> 
> But that is because my kids are grown. If my kids were young, someone with young kids and 5 hobbies would be a red flag.


I get how lots of people would feel this way and I understand how others feel other ways. 

For me, GF and I are not living together yet, and when we are apart, I just don't sleep well. I want her beside me. All of our kids are grown, but we both have Grand Kids and others things. So, right now we cannot be together every night and it sucks. Plus, I have a new band that is taking off locally like a rocket so who knows how much time that is going to take. It just seems like a lot...

We are ready for the next step but responsibilities and logistics are getting in the way. And that sucks. 

I think it is called life, and while "life" is great, I am past ready to make her coffee every morning and snuggle with her while drinking it...


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Plus, I have a new band that is taking off locally like a rocket so who knows how much time that is going to take.


The above would be considered a hobby by many. So it seems to contradict...


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

EllisRedding said:


> Here is an article I came across on the topic with 1 POV:
> 
> https://www.thepostmillennial.com/in-defense-of-sex-millennials-should-really-try-having-it/


Concur.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> The above would be considered a hobby by many. So it seems to contradict...


No, not really. But at the same time... She is supper "into" my music and live music in general. 

And yeah, this one is a hobby and I am not going on the road, too old for that anymore. 

So it is like a hobby for both of us in a way. But on rehearsal nights, I would like it better if I could come home to "our" house and sleep in the same bed, which logistically is harder. 

But yes, it is a hobby. I am not doing it for the money...


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm wondering how a single person with no time for a hobby, is going to come up with 15 hours per week to work on a relationship. But my hobbies tend to be flexible, I don't have a band or a team to let down if I need to schedule a date. I guess the ability to prioritize is more important than the number of hobbies a person indulges in.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

I actually hear some incel noise coming out of my daughter's high school. Freaking schlubs.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> I actually hear some incel noise coming out of my daughter's high school. Freaking schlubs.


I actually think the whole incel mindset begins even before high school.

By middle school, boys have already established forms of dominance and hierarchy. The early physical bloomers are king of the hill. By the first middle school dance, the nice guys know they are last in line to get a date or to have a date at all. And so the seeds of the incels are sown....


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I actually think the whole incel mindset begins even before high school.
> 
> By middle school, boys have already established forms of dominance and hierarchy. The early physical bloomers are king of the hill. By the first middle school dance, the nice guys know they are last in line to get a date or to have a date at all. And so the seeds of the incels are sown....


Well certainly teen boys did not share their inner thoughts with me when I was a teen ager, there was no bitterness over not getting a girl on the gossip squak.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> Well certainly teen boys did not share their inner thoughts with me when I was a teen ager, there was no bitterness over not getting a girl on the gossip squak.


It is just the first step in an evolution for many. Some overcome, some do not. 

The thing is, most teenage boys don't share their inner thoughts _with anyone_, not even each other, so it could never find its way on the gossip squak.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It is just the first step in an evolution for many. Some overcome, some do not.
> 
> The thing is, most teenage boys don't share their inner thoughts _with anyone_, not even each other, so it could never find its way on the gossip squak.


Why is it on the gossip squak now?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why is it on the gossip squak now?


Is it? I don't know. I was just theorizing. 

To be clear, I wasn't postulating that any 13 year olds are incels, just that they many have had the first experience that might lead to that thought process. As I said, the seeds are sown; in most, those seeds won't actually germinate. But in some, it's just the first event in a coming pattern.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Is it?


Yah that is what I meant. I hear this stuff coming home with my daughter.



> I don't know. I was just theorizing.
> 
> To be clear, *I wasn't postulating that any 13 year olds are incels*, just that they many have had the first experience that might lead to that thought process. As I said, the seeds are sown; in most, those seeds won't actually germinate. But in some, it's just the first event in a coming pattern.


Me neither. Just that stuff sounds different to me. But then. I am old. When I was a boy, I had to walk up hill both ways. In the rain. And snow. And ... well. Kids today.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> Me neither. Just that stuff sounds different to me. But then. I am old. When I was a boy, I had to walk up hill both ways. In the rain. And snow.


all the while, fighting off hostile Indians!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> all the while, fighting off hostile Indians!


I forgot about the hostile Indians!


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I think the cause is the accessibility of pornography. I feel terrible for young men and boys today that have that garbage available by a 2 second internet search. The boys that are having sex are probably pretty warped too given they're also viewing porn since adolescence.

"Boys Adrift" is a great read that mentions this and other possible causes which is valuable info for mother's/fathers of boys.

Glad I got to grow up without porn and working on providing the same for my son's!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CatholicDad said:


> I think the cause is the accessibility of pornography. I feel terrible for young men and boys today that have that garbage available by a 2 second internet search. _The boys that are having sex are probably pretty warped too given they're also viewing porn since adolescence_.


Well, I am not sure about that. From what I can tell, the ones having sex are the ones who are seeing and treating their girlfriends well, as people. I wonder if the boys who aren't just don't know any better. I think it is good that sex ed is putting focus on what porn ISN'T, primarily that it isn't remotely real life and certainly not instructional.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Hmmmmm.....
> Women are more independent, so they can be more selective.


Yes, but they still need to select someone eventually (assuming they;re interested in a committed relationship (with a man). If the one man one woman rule still holds, a good number of women will find themselves without many good choices to select from.



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Drop in testosterone levels.


This is curious, previous casual investigation on my part seem to verify that this is a real thing. Evolution (more men with Low-T reproducing once Ghengis Khan stopped hogging all the women)? Or related to a lack of physical labor? Something else?



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Video games.
> Porn.


Apparently, for guys on the lower end of the SMV spectrum, these offer a better return on investment than pursuing woman and sex



Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> But it must add that it's incorrect to say young men are having less sex. After all, it takes two to tango and all those young women are having sex with someone (not counting homosexuals). So young men are having just as much sex as ever, it's just that that sex is concentrated among a smaller proportion of them.
> 
> With that in mind, rather than seeing this as a negative, I'd say if you've got something on the ball these days, it's probably a good time to be a sexually active young man!


It's been a really good time to be a guy on the upper end of the SMV range since the start of the sexual revolution.

Nothing new here.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Choice. Women can choose. They are no longer reliant on a man for their survival.


Very true.

But, just because one can choose doesn't mean one gets what one wants.


----------



## SpinyNorman (Jan 24, 2018)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Hmmmmm.....
> 
> Women are more independent, so they can be more selective.
> Drop in testosterone levels.
> ...


Unless some of the tangos are between young women and not-so-young men, which doesn't seem farfetched to me.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> It always strikes me funny that the vocal mgtow are the biggest mutants, as if they fact that they are going their own way would hurt anyone's feelings. Good riddance.


I certainly seems on the surface that undesirable men removing themselves from the dating pool actually does women a favor.

But, if there are more women than men in the dating pool, that's going to leave quite a few women without dates. 

Then what, female incels?

If these men could be convinced to put some effort into being somewhat desirable, it might be best for everyone (although I have no idea how to do that).


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> It's nothing new. Social constraints and economic realities simply used to allow a "wuss", as you call him, to get married and get some measure of sex through pressure. That is much less the case now.


Before social constraints allowed wusses to get married and get some measure of success, the "top men" had harems and multiple wives. The wusses got nothing (historically about 50% of men never passed on their DNA).

That wasn't good for the wusses, but it wasn't all that good for the women either.

I think it's a problem although I have absolutely no idea what could be done about it.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Mirror image of the most vocal radical militant feminists.


But the incels are just a joke with no power. Sure, they say bad stuff about women, but it has no effect on society at all.

On the other hand, radical militant feminists are having a significant effect on society.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> I guess you are looking at way different population that I am looking at.
> 
> Because that is not what I see. I see young men, as complete wussies in almost ever aspect...
> 
> ...


I believe it's generally true that women desire "masculine" men and that men these days are less "masculine".

But that may have something to do with popular culture telling boys for the last 50 years that they should be more like women.

"Toxic Masculinity", etc.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

SpinyNorman said:


> Unless some of the tangos are between young women and not-so-young men, which doesn't seem farfetched to me.


That seems a plausible explanation.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Here is an article I came across on the topic with 1 POV:
> 
> https://www.thepostmillennial.com/in-defense-of-sex-millennials-should-really-try-having-it/


There is nothing more fulfilling than to be in a committed, loving relationship with a woman who feels the same way.

However, it can be a lot of pain and effort to get there and here's no guarantee of success.

Opting out eases the struggle and avoids the pain. It's the easy choice.

The downside is that you'll have no chance at finding the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I actually hear some incel noise coming out of my daughter's high school. Freaking schlubs.


Curious. What are you hearing? 

And is it just about incels (who seem pathetic and a little scary to me) or MGTOW type stuff (who I have no problem with)?


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> That seems a plausible explanation.


I'm sure that's some of it.

But it seems that the rates are changing more for young men than for young women, which would lead to the conclusion that more young women are having sex with the same young men.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm sure that's some of it.
> 
> But it seems that the rates are changing more for young men than for young women, which would lead to the conclusion that more young women are having sex with the same young men.


Agreed. I'm sure there's no one variable that accounts for it all.


----------



## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I'm hoping this means fewer children born out of wedlock. Or at least, fewer baby daddies per single mom.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NextTimeAround said:


> I'm hoping this means fewer children born out of wedlock. Or at least, fewer baby daddies per single mom.


More like one baby daddy for several moms.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NextTimeAround said:


> I'm hoping this means fewer children born out of wedlock. Or at least, fewer baby daddies per single mom.


Nope. The young women haven't stopped having sex. 

So, there's just a little less variety in who the baby daddy is.


----------



## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

As soon as the little wuss boys find out it might take a little chasing and work they bail and then try to find out why there isn't an App to take care of that for them while they cry in the corner.

Meanwhile the guys who are putting in the time and work, treating the girls like they should ...... are dropping panties just fine.

To me ..... it's natural selection at its BEST.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Mr.Married said:


> As soon as the little wuss boys find out it might take a little chasing and work they bail and then try to find out why there isn't an App to take care of that for them while they cry in the corner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is every bit the mischaracterization that is presented by MGTOW...from the opposite perspective.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> *But the incels are just a joke with no power. Sure, they say bad stuff about women, but it has no effect on society at all.*
> 
> On the other hand, radical militant feminists are having a significant effect on society.


I beg to differ with you. 

Ever heard of Elliot Rodger? He's the guy that went on a shooting rampage in Isla Vista n 2014 killing 6 people because he was frustrated over not being able to find a girlfriend. 

How about Scott Paul Beierle who in 2018 walked into a Tallahassee yoga studio and killed two women? 

How about Alek Minassian who in April 2018 killed 10 in Toronto by driving his van over people?

These are just three examples of "involuntary celibate" murders. There are many many more. 

The bad things incels say about women absolutely does have an effect on society. They have the ability to stir these frustrated individuals to commit atrocious violence.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I certainly seems on the surface that undesirable men removing themselves from the dating pool actually does women a favor.
> 
> But, if there are more women than men in the dating pool, that's going to leave quite a few women without dates.
> 
> *Then what, female incels?*


Lol you mean women over 40? 



> If these men could be convinced to put some effort into being somewhat desirable, it might be best for everyone (although I have no idea how to do that).


There's more to it that this. Our society has taught us that "settling" and "average" is unacceptable. This is not a female or male issue. It's a society as a whole issue. 

Many incel men are average looking guys but they remain involuntary celibate because they feel entitled to the smokin hot, 10 cheerleader. They get frustrated that Pageant Queen Patty won't give him the time of day and Average Annie is the best he can do. That is a problem that cant be resolved with a simple "be more desirable" .


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Lila said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> > I certainly seems on the surface that undesirable men removing themselves from the dating pool actually does women a favor.
> ...


Some do. These are likely the orbiters that got friendzoned and are wasting their time with these girls. But according to the Pareto Principle, this is more a female issue than male issue. If put to it, a man will pretty much nail anything that moves, especially after a few drinks.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

uhtred said:


> Not sure its that different:
> 
> Real cowboys herded cattle. Old west movie style gunfights were extremely rare.
> 
> ...


I'm feeling a little odd man out here.

Re cowboys; I've ridden herd, roped, tagged, cut, my of my school friends did too. We all did, growing up. We all owned and cared for our horses and livestock. 

Our biggest social events were livestock fair, and rodeos.

Ridden in rodeo.
Some of my friends currently are cowboying in Montana and Colorado. Saw them last year. Although are foremen and ranch managers now.

Member of Future Farmers of America (FFA)

Warriors? We all should be warriors of a sort, or support our warriors, even in peace.


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

There is something to be said for men getting in touch with their warrior side. It has literally brought me emotional peace where I once struggled to have any.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Some do. These are likely the orbiters that got friendzoned and are wasting their time with these girls. But according to the Pareto Principle, this is more a female issue than male issue. If put to it, a man will pretty much nail anything that moves, especially after a few drinks.


The Pareto Principle is an economic principle that Red Pill enthusiastics have bastardized to fit their objectives. But even if it wasn't specific to economics, no where does it state that this phenomenon is specific to females. And before you quote the ok Cupid survey which found that women rated only 20% of the men above average looking based on their photos, that same study found that men send 2/3 of their messages to the top 1/3 women. Basically men are fighting each other 2 for 1 for the absolute best looking women. So no, a man won't accept just about anything. 

As far as nailing things, I think the term beer goggles is a unisex term. Given enough alcohol, women too will nail just about anything.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Before social constraints allowed wusses to get married and get some measure of success, the "top men" had harems and multiple wives. The wusses got nothing (historically about 50% of men never passed on their DNA).
> 
> That wasn't good for the wusses, but it wasn't all that good for the women either.
> 
> I think it's a problem although I have absolutely no idea what could be done about it.


I don't think it is a problem in the sense that something needs to be done about it... like it impacts anyone other than the person who is feeling unhappy.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

On the bright side, men who date primarily for looks often discover that they can get what they want and still not be happy. 




Lila said:


> The Pareto Principle is an economic principle that Red Pill enthusiastics have bastardized to fit their objectives. But even if it wasn't specific to economics, no where does it state that this phenomenon is specific to females. And before you quote the ok Cupid survey which found that women rated only 20% of the men above average looking based on their photos, that same study found that men send 2/3 of their messages to the top 1/3 women. Basically men are fighting each other 2 for 1 for the absolute best looking women. So no, a man won't accept just about anything.
> 
> As far as nailing things, I think the term beer goggles is a unisex term. Given enough alcohol, women too will nail just about anything.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

uhtred said:


> On the bright side, men who date primarily for looks often discover that they can get what they want and still not be happy.


That is true and I think it works for women as well and for many other specific characteristics. That's why superficiality is the wrong approach to mating, at least amongst modern humans.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> I beg to differ with you.
> 
> Ever heard of Elliot Rodger? He's the guy that went on a shooting rampage in Isla Vista n 2014 killing 6 people because he was frustrated over not being able to find a girlfriend.
> 
> ...


These were alienated men who, I believe would have committed the same crimes if such a thing as an "incel" movement didn't exist.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> Many incel men are average looking guys but they remain involuntary celibate because they feel entitled to the smokin hot, 10 cheerleader. They get frustrated that Pageant Queen Patty won't give him the time of day and Average Annie is the best he can do. That is a problem that cant be resolved with a simple "be more desirable" .


Actually, I believe that women try to "date up" more than men,

But, this has been discussed on the board before and, of course, no common ground was reached.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Lila said:


> Lol you mean women over 40?
> 
> There's more to it that this. Our society has taught us that "settling" and "average" is unacceptable. This is not a female or male issue. It's a society as a whole issue.
> 
> Many incel men are average looking guys but they remain involuntary celibate because they feel entitled to the smokin hot, 10 cheerleader. They get frustrated that Pageant Queen Patty won't give him the time of day and Average Annie is the best he can do. That is a problem that cant be resolved with a simple "be more desirable" .


I just have to disagree with you here. These "men" may be average looking, OK. They are an average looking group of losers that could not get a date with a $1000 bill. 

That is the reality of it. Some of the has to do with a lot of things, bad parenting, weak people and parents, trophies for everyone, "so called Toxic Masculinity", just a lot of things.

This was not happening when I was growing up and I did not allow my sons to partake of this. 

Now, they were both athletes in high school, but quit after a couple of years because they were not going to be big enough for D-1 collages. And they concentrated on music, and were successful at a young age. 

I taught them, I supported them, I drove them to their gigs before they could drive, ran the sound system if I did not have a gig that night, stuff like that...

But I did not baby them, they did all the actual work. 

I will say that I supervised them a little closer than my mother did me, and I did not want them to be like me in a lot of ways... (Drinking, chasing women, playing all over the country at too young an age, that type of stuff) and I was able to keep them away from that, not sure how...

But they are the definition of strong men (the good definition), one is married, one is still in collage. 

Both are musicians, and the oldest does travel around the country playing, but he is married, and does not drink or party, all business. The youngest play all over a large metropolitan area, but spends most of his time with school. 

Neither of them have, or had, any trouble getting woman, and both turned down more woman than I ever could have, because they had GF's. 

Point is, my family did not participate in the current silliness that is part of society these days...


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Actually, I believe that women try to "date up" more than men,
> 
> But, this has been discussed on the board before and, of course, no common ground was reached.


I have seen both genders do it. I have personally seen more men do it but I am a man so I am probably privy to more experiences in seeing men in this situation than a woman would be.

I have been flabbergasted at the entitlement I've witnessed it in very average or below average specimens of manhood.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> These were alienated men who, I believe would have committed the same crimes if such a thing as an "incel" movement didn't exist.


So you think that all of the incel men who have committed mass murder used the "incel" movement to legitimize their reason for murdering? In other words, you think they would have committed murder if they didn't have a problem finding dates or girlfriends? 

This seems to be a modern phenomenon. Are we breeding more psychopaths than back in the day?


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, I believe that women try to "date up" more than men,
> ...


Same here. I have seen both genders do this but in my experience, more men try to date up than women, try being the operative word. Or looked at differently, when it comes to dating and entering into relationships, I have seen women settle more times than men.


----------



## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> Actually, I believe that women try to "date up" more than men,
> 
> But, this has been discussed on the board before and, of course, no common ground was reached.


I think this is overall not genuine. (Not that you aren't as I am sure you are.) 

While men and women are different. They are human in the sense of our default is to want what is considered "best for us". 

Now, once an individual has developed a sense of awareness and loves themselves. They may realize that what is best for them isn't how a mate looks in swipe culture, but what are their goals, hobbies, passions and how does their emotional needs line up with your emotional needs. 

I really think that for most of us on the forum. At least verbally we all are aware enough to say that looks don't matter compared to the persons integrity, morals, and how they are able to love you as well as how you are able to love them


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > There's more to it that this. Our society has taught us that "settling" and "average" is unacceptable. This is not a female or male issue. It's a society as a whole issue.
> ...


I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. Do you think an average looking incel would have a difficult time dating an average looking loser woman? I mean, they are both losers.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Lila said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Some do. These are likely the orbiters that got friendzoned and are wasting their time with these girls. But according to the Pareto Principle, this is more a female issue than male issue. If put to it, a man will pretty much nail anything that moves, especially after a few drinks.
> ...


I'm not even referencing the OK Cupid. Throughout history 40% of men have reproduced compared to 80% of women. And at one point (about 8000 years ago) it was estimated at 1 man for every 17 women.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> ...


Throughout history? You think "back in the day" women could choose who they married or procreated with? 

If your numbers are to be believed, the reason why 80% of the women procreated with 40% of the men has more to do with mortality rates, rape, and the fact that women were treated as chattel than women's free choice to choose a partner they actually wanted.


----------



## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

Lila said:


> I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. Do you think an average looking incel would have a difficult time dating an average looking loser woman? I mean, they are both losers.


They might actually avoid the pairing as they are both average and it is already established they are losers.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I'm not even referencing the OK Cupid. Throughout history 40% of men have reproduced compared to 80% of women. And at one point (about 8000 years ago) it was estimated at 1 man for every 17 women.


When you are a young lady being herded towards the rulers harem by soldiers with a bunch of other young women who were all taken by force, choice is hardly a consideration for mating.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

hope4family said:


> They might actually avoid the pairing as they are both average and it is already established they are losers.


That would make them voluntary celibates since they are choosing not to pair up. I'm sure these people have some name out there I haven't heard of.


----------



## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

Lila said:


> That would make them voluntary celibates since they are choosing not to pair up. I'm sure these people have some name out there I haven't heard of.


I thought we established they were Average Losers? 

Ok I kid.


----------



## hope4family (Sep 5, 2012)

Does anyone think the old fashioned rule of 3 6's come into play here? 

Does he have 6 pack abs, 6 figures salary, or is he 6ft? 

I honestly do think there is something to this. 

Take care of yourself, have a career, and stand up straight?

Ok I can't be 6ft....but most men can easily control the other 2, and an alarming amount don't.


----------



## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

I think it's a combination of things. 

There are too many men who are afraid they'll go to jail for so much as flirting with a woman and too many women who won't make the first move while telling men they can't, either, and then wondering why no one has asked them out. 

People spend way too much time online and not enough time being social in person. It's hard for an average looking, average earning person to generate romantic interest from photos and a brief profile alone. Before the rise of social media and online dating, people met in person. They interacted. By virtue of personality alone a lot of average or below average people were able to find mates. Now, those average people get "swiped" away online with no chance to win that person over with their humor, wit, and charm.

Adding to too much time online and not enough social interaction in person we have increased social anxiety and/or social awkwardness, which doesn't exactly help.

There is also extended adolescence and helicopter parenting to share some of the blame. We can't be surprised that with stunted growth and maturity comes a later in life sexual awakening and motivational desire to find a mate.

And, yes, I think men are less masculine and less attractive to women because of it. The men who are more masculine seem to get their pick of women. And by masculine, I mean fairly average by my generations standards. You know, the kind of men who'd ask a lady out if they were interested, accept a no gracefully, go do something with their hands/play a sport/have a beer with a friend, dust themselves off, and try again with the next lady that catches their fancy.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

MJJEAN said:


> I think it's a combination of things.
> 
> There are too many men who are afraid they'll go to jail for so much as flirting with a woman and too many women who won't make the first move while telling men they can't, either, and then wondering why no one has asked them out.
> 
> ...


Great post throughout, but I especially like the last paragraph.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not even referencing the OK Cupid. Throughout history 40% of men have reproduced compared to 80% of women. And at one point (about 8000 years ago) it was estimated at 1 man for every 17 women.
> ...


Fair point, but the trend now is fewer guys reporting sex than women, even though men constantly over report sexual activity and women under report. I'm just curious as to how much of this is simply sexual selection. Why wouldn't a woman choose a man that was viewed as having superior DNA for her children. I don't think its some sort of rational choice, its probably hardwired into our lizard brain in order to offer the best chances at our offspring survival.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Fair point, but the trend now is fewer guys reporting sex than women, even though men constantly over report sexual activity and women under report. I'm just curious as to how much of this is simply sexual selection. Why wouldn't a woman choose a man that was viewed as having superior DNA for her children. I don't think its some sort of rational choice, its probably hardwired into our lizard brain in order to offer the best chances at our offspring survival.


Can you refer me to the report(s) showing these trends? I'm curious what these numbers look like.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Lila said:


> Can you refer me to the report(s) showing these trends? I'm curious what these numbers look like.


OP linked it in the top of the thread.


----------



## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> I certainly seems on the surface that undesirable men removing themselves from the dating pool actually does women a favor.
> 
> But, if there are more women than men in the dating pool, that's going to leave quite a few women without dates.
> 
> ...


There's no such thing as a female incel.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> So you think that all of the incel men who have committed mass murder used the "incel" movement to legitimize their reason for murdering? In other words, you think they would have committed murder if they didn't have a problem finding dates or girlfriends?
> 
> This seems to be a modern phenomenon. Are we breeding more psychopaths than back in the day?


There always were (and always be) "incels" and many of them are likely to feel alienated.

We're not going to provide them with sex and telling them that it's okay for them to never be able to have a girlfriend isn't likely to make them feel better.

So, they're going to be a possible danger to society whether or not someone labels them as "incels".


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> There always were (and always be) "incels" and many of them are likely to feel alienated.
> 
> We're not going to provide them with sex and telling them that it's okay for them to never be able to have a girlfriend isn't likely to make them feel better.
> 
> So, they're going to be a possible danger to society whether or not someone labels them as "incels".


I wonder why this post tickles my "odd" nerve. I have never heard a rationale stated like this that some segment of the population is not getting what they want thus will be a danger to society. Is that normal thinking?


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> > There always were (and always be) "incels" and many of them are likely to feel alienated.
> ...


The power of the poontang...


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> But the incels are just a joke with no power. Sure, they say bad stuff about women, but it has no effect on society at all.
> 
> On the other hand, radical militant feminists are having a significant effect on society.


I dunno, the psycho incels who drive into crowds and shoot people seem to have an effect.....


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> Curious. What are you hearing?
> 
> And is it just about incels (who seem pathetic and a little scary to me) or MGTOW type stuff (who I have no problem with)?


If someone has decided to "go their own way" by the age of 15, then they have an authority figure who needs counseling.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder why this post tickles my "odd" nerve. I have never heard a rationale stated like this that some segment of the population is not getting what they want thus will be a danger to society. Is that normal thinking?


It apparently is now. You used to deal with not getting what you wanted by partying with the guys, eating some Ben & Jerry's, etc.

Now apparently the answer is to "punish" society for "cheating" you with bullets or cars or explosives or whatnot.....


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Lila said:


> I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with. Do you think an average looking incel would have a difficult time dating an average looking loser woman? I mean, they are both losers.


It is this part... 



> Many incel men are average looking guys but they remain involuntary celibate because they feel entitled to the smokin hot, 10 cheerleader.


In my opinion, they are either complete morons (being average in looks) and looking at 10's (cheerleaders or not) and just losers in general. 

Where all this comes from, I have no idea, but if you are not hideously ugly, but even average, and you and actually thinking that you deserve the 10 out there, that is beyond either entitled or beyond stupid, or both. 

I am not sure that we really disagree, but I am saying that these guys are just your average loser and there are a lot of them. They may be smart at one level, but completely stupid on a lot more levels that really matter. 

I mean, think about it, you are probably not in shape, socially awkward, play video games all day, and it is the females fault that you are not getting laid?

How does that work? 

So I guess what I am saying it that they are just losers, entitled or not, their problem is that they are losers.

And maybe we don't agree and are saying the same thing...


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder why this post tickles my "odd" nerve. I have never heard a rationale stated like this that some segment of the population is not getting what they want thus will be a danger to society. Is that normal thinking?


They all fit into one category for me.

Walking dead.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> It apparently is now. You used to deal with not getting what you wanted by partying with the guys, eating some Ben & Jerry's, etc.
> 
> Now apparently the answer is to "punish" society for "cheating" you with bullets or cars or explosives or whatnot.....


Boys will be boys seems to be the continued mantra. Blame it on the "need" for "poontang" cuz it's so powerful.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

28% of young men didn't have sex last year. That's a lot of porn and cheetos.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Boys will be boys seems to be the continued mantra. Blame it on the "need" for "poontang" cuz it's so powerful.


Yes because...."I will die without vagina" AND "her vagina ain't gold - don't put the ***** on a pedestal!"

Cognitive dissonance powered by the red pill lol


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agreed. Humans of both genders often do a really poor job of picking mates. Maybe societies with matchmakers actually had the right idea. It would be interesting to study measures of relationship satisfaction in arranged, vs non-arranged marriages. I wonder if the results wouldn't be what people expect. 







Lila said:


> That is true and I think it works for women as well and for many other specific characteristics. That's why superficiality is the wrong approach to mating, at least amongst modern humans.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Agreed. Humans of both genders often do a really poor job of picking mates. Maybe societies with matchmakers actually had the right idea. It would be interesting to study measures of relationship satisfaction in arranged, vs non-arranged marriages. I wonder if the results wouldn't be what people expect.


Let us know the results!


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder why this post tickles my "odd" nerve. I have never heard a rationale stated like this that some segment of the population is not getting what they want thus will be a danger to society. Is that normal thinking?


I'm not saying that they're *justified* in being violent or a danger to society.

But, people who aren't getting what they want, believe that they are being unfairly denied what they want or, especially, believe that the system is rigged to deny them what they feel entitled to are more likely to be alienated from society than others.

Almost everyone who commits mass violence is alienated.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Boys will be boys seems to be the continued mantra. Blame it on the "need" for "poontang" cuz it's so powerful.


Understanding what may be driving people to act badly is not the same as justifying that bad behavior.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I'm not saying that they're *justified* in being violent or a danger to society.


Yah, I know. I am not saying you are.



> But, *people *who aren't getting what they want, believe that they are being unfairly denied what they want or, especially, believe that the system is rigged to deny them what they feel *entitled to* are more likely to be alienated from society than others.
> 
> _Almost everyone who commits mass violence is alienated._



The converse is not true. That is what makes me wonder what is odd about the thinking.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I think a lot of this could be helped if people could get away from the idea that there is a "perfect" woman or "perfect" man - and that everyone else can be ordered relative to them. Different people want different things - but sometimes they aren't aware of that. 

I'll take an average looking, astrophysicists who shares my interests (in and out of bed) over the hottest "babe" that ever existed. To me hot women are nice to look at, but looks aren't even the most important thing for sex (far from it). 

Other people will have other preferences. Some women may want billionaire CEOs, but all do, many would be happier with a successful tradesman. 

There are of course some people who are in general more or less desirable - but its not nearly the strong ordering that many people think it is.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> Yes because...."I will die without vagina" AND "her vagina ain't gold - don't put the ***** on a pedestal!"
> 
> Cognitive dissonance powered by the red pill lol


Actually, this IS consistent.

People tend to put on a pedestal those things they place too high a value on.

Incels will talk about how much they need "vagina". They have no need to worry about what to do if they actually get one.

The Red Pill counsels that, once you have "vagina" don't overvalue it.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> > Boys will be boys seems to be the continued mantra. Blame it on the "need" for "poontang" cuz it's so powerful.
> ...


Unless it's an affair 😉


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Yes because...."I will die without vagina" AND "her vagina ain't gold - don't put the ***** on a pedestal!"
> ...


 Actually it's more like this… I hate women and think women are terrible but I demand that they have sex with me


----------



## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I wonder why this post tickles my "odd" nerve. I have never heard a rationale stated like this that some segment of the population is not getting what they want thus will be a danger to society. Is that normal thinking?


I wonder if you would make this statement if the subject of the conversation were young minorities, of lesser economic privilege, in the inner city ghettos.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> If someone has decided to "go their own way" by the age of 15, then they have an authority figure who needs counseling.


I don't have a problem with MGTOW since it's a personal choice and doesn't effect anyone but themselves.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Unless it's an affair 😉


Dude. Not cool. Respect the keyboard.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> I wonder if you would make this statement if the subject of the conversation were young minorities, of lesser economic privilege, in the inner city ghettos.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


I don't remember the word. Like if their being disenfranchised makes them commit mass shootings? (The word is not disenfranchised.)


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't remember the word. Like if their being disenfranchised makes them commit mass shootings? (The word is not disenfranchised.)


Not necessarily mass shootings, but actions detrimental to society at large. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > Can you refer me to the report(s) showing these trends? I'm curious what these numbers look like.
> ...


So here is the actual article that goes with graph that was linked in the OP. 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sou...aw0PPV3i0HIp418l7bDyOyEN&ust=1554405016996320

I clicked on the actual survey link in the article but it requires me to set up an account which I don't have time to do now. One question I have is whether the reported sex was limited to heterosexual or if it included homosexual as well.


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## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > Yes because...."I will die without vagina" AND "her vagina ain't gold - don't put the ***** on a pedestal!"
> ...


Scarcity invites desperation. Abundance invites apathy. I notice many women when they get mad, they start taking ***** off the table. Like they are holding a steak over a starving Ethiopian boy. Then when you don't care, they get more pissed. Thats when I know I'm winning 🙂.


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## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> There always were (and always be) "incels" and many of them are likely to feel alienated.
> 
> *We're not going to provide them with sex and telling them that it's okay for them to never be able to have a girlfriend isn't likely to make them feel better.*
> 
> So, they're going to be a possible danger to society whether or not someone labels them as "incels".


The interesting part about all of this is that incels do not want just sex. They detest the idea of getting their sexual needs met by sex workers. They want to be genuinely desired. But not just by anyone. They want to be desired by the "perfect" woman ( perfect to them). 

They are making the choice to be celibate rather than seek sex with either sex workers or women who will have sex with them but who they find lacking.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Lila said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> > There always were (and always be) "incels" and many of them are likely to feel alienated.
> ...


There's a guy named ZA elsewhere who is like this. Every thread the same, and yet people keep engaging....


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

We keep trying to convince them that the girlfriend experience isn't worth the risk/cost, but they keep wanting it. In a younger age bracket there are a lot of girls who think they deserve the boyfriend experience. (also not worth the cost/risk)


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> Actually it's more like this… I hate women and think women are terrible but I demand that they have sex with me


And to think some people think the need for feminism is a thing of the past. Some people still don't see women as people.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> We keep trying to convince them that the girlfriend experience isn't worth the risk/cost, but they keep wanting it. In a younger age bracket there are a lot of girls who think they deserve the boyfriend experience. (also not worth the cost/risk)


Whom do you try to convince? Who is we?


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> 28% of young men didn't have sex last year. That's a lot of porn and cheetos.


That made me laugh!:laugh:


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Scarcity invites desperation. Abundance invites apathy. I notice many women when they get mad, they start taking ***** off the table. Like they are holding a steak over a starving Ethiopian boy. Then when you don't care, they get more pissed. Thats when I know I'm winning 🙂.


When I get mad, I take my steak away from Mrs. C and she is none to happy about it.

Mrs. Conan likes sex whether she is mad or not.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

If a lot of people are unhappy about not having sex, that is an issue worth thinking about solving. 

Should their expectations be changed? (we talk a lot about how society brainwashes women into some self-destructive behaviors, but I think it does the same to men). 

Do we need more funding for sex robots? Better access and protections for sex workers? 

Involuntary celibacy is not an excuse for bad behavior, but it is a cause for unhappiness.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Mr. Nail said:


> 28% of young men didn't have sex last year. That's a lot of porn and cheetos.




Hmmmm...

Not enough sex ---> more cheetos.
then
too many cheetos ---> less opportunity for sex

Sounds like the perfect incel death spiral. 

Sadly, the incel will get more and more frustrated all the while engaging in exactly the activity that makes him less attractive.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

uhtred said:


> If a lot of people are unhappy about not having sex, that is an issue worth thinking about solving.
> 
> Should their expectations be changed? (we talk a lot about how society brainwashes women into some self-destructive behaviors, but I think it does the same to men).
> 
> ...


I think pathetic men who get angry and violent because attractive women don't want to have sex with them should be snapped in half and fed to fish.

I truly believe that is the best answer. Some people have chosen to be garbage and need disposed of.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Lila said:


> The interesting part about all of this is that incels do not want just sex. They detest the idea of getting their sexual needs met by sex workers. They want to be genuinely desired. But not just by anyone. They want to be desired by the "perfect" woman ( perfect to them).
> 
> They are making the choice to be celibate rather than seek sex with either sex workers or women who will have sex with them but who they find lacking.


I haven't read anything by incels. It may be true that want the "perfect woman" but I'd like Kate Upton to "truly desire" me and that ain't going to happen either. Hard to believe they'd be THAT whacked.

There is a significant percentage of men to whom almost NO women are available under any circumstances. I can understand that these guys aren't happy about this, but then people with low IQs can't be rocket scientists and I never could have played in the NFL no matter how hard I worked at it. There just seems to be a lot more envy going on these days. Maybe because "plain old life" is somehow less satisfying than it used to be?

Sure, monogamy and no premarital sex might have gotten these guys a wife and some sex, but not with "perfect" women or women who "truly desire" them. 

So, I can't see what they think can be done about their situation. It sucks. 

They are basically just complaining that women aren't attracted to what they think women should be attracted to. Just like how unattractive women complain that all guys only care about looks (not their "inner beauty").

Incels and the Red Pill might both say offensive things about women, but they're two different things.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> When I get mad, I take my steak away from Mrs. C and she is none to happy about it.
> 
> Mrs. Conan likes sex whether she is mad or not.


I admit I haven't read this whole thread. That a young man wouldn't think full time about getting a woman in bed is too foreign for me to comprehend. 

But on CH's comment, yep, mad or not, we don't stop fooling around.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't remember the word. Like if their being disenfranchised makes them commit mass shootings? (The word is not disenfranchised.)


Well, why are we told (generally by liberals) that some groups of people riot and engage in violent crime?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> And to think some people think the need for feminism is a thing of the past. Some people still don't see women as people.


Look, NS. I like you. I am honestly not trying to pick on you...but you just finished commentary doing the very thing to incels and MGTOW that you clearly dislike being done to women/feminists.

By it's very nature, and in the spirit of true objectivity (which you know I value based on previous conversations), how can you demonize one and justify the other?

They are both based on fear at best and hate at worst. 

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> And to think some people think the need for feminism is a thing of the past. Some people still don't see women as people.


I don't think we really need either. The icels or feminism or any or the other crap. 

But then I guess it is too much to just want people to be in the realm of normal. 

Women are people, men are people... can't we all just get along?


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I think pathetic men who get angry and violent because attractive women don't want to have sex with them should be snapped in half and fed to fish.
> 
> I truly believe that is the best answer. Some people have chosen to be garbage and need disposed of.


Actually, I have thought about this, but it would not be right. Plus, if this is an increasing part or the population (?) that might be an issue... 

Plus you got that whole human rights thing so we can't just whack them... Maybe they could just start like a leper colony or something????


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> I think pathetic men who get angry and violent because attractive women don't want to have sex with them should be snapped in half and fed to fish.
> 
> I truly believe that is the best answer. Some people have chosen to be garbage and need disposed of.


Have you actually encountered any of these men online or are you just taking what she said at face value?


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Its a fair question I've never personally run into an incel online or in real life. 




BruceBanner said:


> Have you actually encountered any of these men online or are you just taking what she said at face value?


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> Look, NS. I like you. I am honestly not trying to pick on you...but you just finished commentary doing the very thing to incels and MGTOW that you clearly dislike being done to women/feminists.
> 
> By it's very nature, and in the spirit of true objectivity (which you know I value based on previous conversations), how can you demonize one and justify the other?
> 
> ...


I was not demonizing either. I was replying to a specific set of posts on needing a vagina. I am sorry you misunderstood me. 

Yes, I think someone who calls them-self incel is a tool. It is about being supposedly denied that which one is not entitled. MGTOW have my best wishes.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> Well, why are we told (generally by liberals) that some groups of people riot and engage in violent crime?


This conversation has gone far afield of what I am particularly interested in. Someone spoke of mass shootings. Or my brain is squishy from sneezing for 2 days straight. But I see your parallel.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> I don't think we really need either. The icels or feminism or any or the other crap.
> 
> *But then I guess it is too much to just want people to be in the realm of normal. *
> 
> Women are people, men are people... can't we all just get along?


We want people to be. Many aren't.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BruceBanner said:


> Have you actually encountered any of these men online or are you just taking what she said at face value?


I'm talking about actual pieces of human **** that get angry and violent towards women who won't have sex with them.

There have been a few in the news and a bunch of wannabes on the internet.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> Actually, I have thought about this, but it would not be right. Plus, if this is an increasing part or the population (?) that might be an issue...
> 
> Plus you got that whole human rights thing so we can't just whack them... Maybe they could just start like a leper colony or something????


I'm thinking about the women they somehow believe to be their property, that they have a right to be angry and violent towards women who won't spread for them.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Its a fair question I've never personally run into an incel online or in real life.


They are strange folk. Or at least the ones I have encountered. My sample size is pretty tiny. But in both cases, seeing poly-female was great when they thought I was DTF. When I said no thanks, I was representative of all evil females everywhere. Oh and immoral for all the regular reasons too. I don't follow any of their boards as I have nothing to contribute.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I'm thinking about the women they somehow believe to be their property, that they have a right to be angry and violent towards women who won't spread for them.


They are such pleasant people!


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

BruceBanner said:


> ConanHub said:
> 
> 
> > I think pathetic men who get angry and violent because attractive women don't want to have sex with them should be snapped in half and fed to fish.
> ...


Oh I've encountered them. Men whose purpose seems to be to punish womankind with either bedpost notches, ranting reddit posts, or violence (or all 3). Men who label any woman with the guts to call them on their crap a misandrist. Men who keep their spouses around as furniture and orifices. Men who actually spend time sympathizing with men like the one in CA who killed women and a few men lucky enough to get laid.

Cowards. Pathetic. "Hulk mad" babies stomping their feet.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> We keep trying to convince them that the girlfriend experience isn't worth the risk/cost, but they keep wanting it. In a younger age bracket there are a lot of girls who think they deserve the boyfriend experience. (also not worth the cost/risk)


The fact that you are married with this....mindset makes me sad.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Hmmmm...
> 
> Not enough sex ---> more cheetos.
> then
> ...


OMG that made me laugh.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> If a lot of people are unhappy about not having sex, that is an issue worth thinking about solving.


Why? I am not trying to be mean or in any way suggesting I disagree. I am curious why this is an issue worth solving on others' behalf.



> Should their expectations be changed? (we talk a lot about how society brainwashes women into some self-destructive behaviors, but I think it does the same to men).
> 
> Do we need more funding for sex robots? Better access and protections for sex workers?
> 
> Involuntary celibacy is not an excuse for bad behavior, but it is a cause for unhappiness.


Oy. Pretty low on the priority list of the problems facing our world right now IMO. Would that all unhappiness could or should be solved.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

"Sadly, the incel will get more and more frustrated all the while engaging in exactly the activity that makes him less attractive."

You just described 2/3 of the dating section on Loveshack lol


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> I think pathetic men who get angry and violent because attractive women don't want to have sex with them should be snapped in half and fed to fish.
> 
> I truly believe that is the best answer. Some people have chosen to be garbage and need disposed of.


Oh geez.You had to bring capital punishment into this? This is not the politics sub.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> "Sadly, the incel will get more and more frustrated all the while engaging in exactly the activity that makes him less attractive."
> 
> You just described 2/3 of the dating section on Loveshack lol


I missed the post to which you reply. So I have to tag along yours. Is there a dating site anywhere for which this is not true? But really, this is not limited to incels. They just are newly named.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> > "Sadly, the incel will get more and more frustrated all the while engaging in exactly the activity that makes him less attractive."
> ...


I never really did online dating. But I gotta say, I had never seen so many bitter, pathetic boys in my life as I did in that section....I mean single ones.

Other sites have the married version.

But yes, there is a parallel concerning lazy, jobless women with 5 baby daddies who have to order their clothing from a tent maker. I mean....they really think men WANT to date them?

I went through a time of being rejected. There were reasons, both outward and inward, that made me unattractive. I worked on myself instead of blaming a gender. It's not rocket science.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Yes indeed it is a SAD marriage that can engender this kind of thinking. 
"Could've been so beautiful
Could've been so right
I'll never hold what could've been
On a cold and lonely night" - Tiffany


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Mr. Nail said:


> Yes indeed it is a SAD marriage that can engender this kind of thinking.
> "Could've been so beautiful
> Could've been so right
> I'll never hold what could've been
> On a cold and lonely night" - Tiffany


A marriage with a cold partner and no intimacy is just about the loneliest place on earth, I think 😞


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> There's a guy named ZA elsewhere who is like this. Every thread the same, and yet people keep engaging....


I don't know that guy but have read some stuff online that is frankly disgusting. As the parent of a young (shyish) boy, it scares the bejeezus out of me that he could be influenced by something like that.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> They are basically just complaining that women aren't attracted to what they think women should be attracted to. *Just like how unattractive women complain that all guys only care about looks (not their "inner beauty"*).


All guys don't only care about looks? That's a news flash to me.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

MGTOW should be every third weekend of the month for married men. All the men should get away from the womenz and do whatever man stuff the want. It will be like fight club, except it may involve watching lots of football and drinking copiously without any high pitched nagging.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> MGTOW should be every third weekend of the month for married men. All the men should get away from the womenz and do whatever man stuff the want. It will be like fight club, except it may involve watching lots of football and drinking copiously without any high pitched nagging.


My husband calls these fishing tournaments and golf lolol


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> MGTOW should be every third weekend of the month for married men. All the men should get away from the womenz and do whatever man stuff the want. It will be like fight club, except it may involve watching lots of football and drinking copiously without any high pitched nagging.


Fortunately, my wife grants me these things without judgment, laying guilt, or expecting anything in return. 

For my part, I grant her same, I don't abuse her good will, and I pay positive attention to her and remain present with her the rest of the time. 

It's really quite easy when both are committed to each other having a well rounded life, which must include some away time to go with all that together time, especially to do those things the other is not interested in.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Just curious - in what sort of situation did you run into them? I know that they exist, just never cross paths with them. Do people talk like that in real life, or only online where they can hide? (do they admit to their identities?). 






NobodySpecial said:


> They are strange folk. Or at least the ones I have encountered. My sample size is pretty tiny. But in both cases, seeing poly-female was great when they thought I was DTF. When I said no thanks, I was representative of all evil females everywhere. Oh and immoral for all the regular reasons too. I don't follow any of their boards as I have nothing to contribute.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

There really isn't a lot of stuff like that that I want to do that my wife doesn't enjoy as well. 




UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> MGTOW should be every third weekend of the month for married men. All the men should get away from the womenz and do whatever man stuff the want. It will be like fight club, except it may involve watching lots of football and drinking copiously without any high pitched nagging.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Unhappiness doesn't do anyone any good, and societies try to find ways to make people more happy. If there is an easy way to make people happy, it seems worth some effort. This is similar to putting nice parks in cities - the parks aren't necessary, but they make the people who use them happy. 

All depends on how much effort it takes. 



NobodySpecial said:


> Why? I am not trying to be mean or in any way suggesting I disagree. I am curious why this is an issue worth solving on others' behalf.
> 
> 
> Oy. Pretty low on the priority list of the problems facing our world right now IMO. Would that all unhappiness could or should be solved.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Unhappiness doesn't do anyone any good, and societies try to find ways to make people more happy. If there is an easy way to make people happy, it seems worth some effort. This is similar to putting nice parks in cities - the parks aren't necessary, but they make the people who use them happy.
> 
> All depends on how much effort it takes.


Snapping pathetic murderers who target women who won't be owned by them and then feeding their incel parts to the fish makes me happy.

What about my happiness?


----------



## jywilli69 (Apr 3, 2019)

NobodySpecial said:


> Choice. Women can choose. They are no longer reliant on a man for their survival.



That is why some of them are gold diggers. My son is 22 and he doesn't want to deal with the drama, clingy and yes some of the ladies who are worried about me time and not responsibilities such as having money to pay the bills. Those who want to pick from the top 20, are looking for someone to take care of them. Then when they don't produce, they are ready to jump ships. That is some ways guys do things. No one is entirely perfect.0


----------



## jywilli69 (Apr 3, 2019)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Fortunately, my wife grants me these things without judgment, laying guilt, or expecting anything in return.
> 
> For my part, I grant her same, I don't abuse her good will, and I pay positive attention to her and remain present with her the rest of the time.
> 
> It's really quite easy when both are committed to each other having a well rounded life, which must include some away time to go with all that together time, especially to do those things the other is not interested in.


I guess you are one of the lucky ones.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

jywilli69 said:


> I guess you are one of the lucky ones.


In that regard, I do count myself as such.

But I don't think it's really all that rare. All my mountain biking buddies seem to enjoy the same support. They've got good wives, and it seems they all try to be good husbands as well.


----------



## jywilli69 (Apr 3, 2019)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> In that regard, I do count myself as such.
> 
> But I don't think it's really all that rare. All my mountain biking buddies seem to enjoy the same support. They've got good wives, and it seems they all try to be good husbands as well.


 My effort as of being a good husband, was going back in the military so she could be a stay home mom. Did 3 deployments and became 100% disabled. With all my checks being goverment related, I don't think it unfair for her to go to work so we have some form of income other than goverment coming in. I support my wifes endeavors, just wish she could support mine.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Hmmmmm.....
> 
> Women are more independent, so they can be more selective.
> Drop in testosterone levels.
> ...


It didn't say that young men were having less sex.
It said that more young men than before were having no sex, whereas the same number of young women as before were having no sex. If you assume that these are heterosexual people, that means that women are having sex with fewer men.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I certainly seems on the surface that undesirable men removing themselves from the dating pool actually does women a favor.
> 
> But, if there are more women than men in the dating pool, that's going to leave quite a few women without dates.
> 
> ...


There will never be a significant number of female incels.
There will be polygamy instead.
Note: I think this is a terrible idea. I much prefer monogamy.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

tech-novelist said:


> It didn't say that young men were having less sex.
> It said that more young men than before were having no sex, whereas the same number of young women as before were having no sex. If you assume that these are heterosexual people, that means that women are having sex with fewer men.


_It_ didn't, but the _title of this thread_ did.

Thread title:
*Young men are having a lot less sex*


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> There always were (and always be) "incels" and many of them are likely to feel alienated.
> 
> We're not going to provide them with sex and telling them that it's okay for them to never be able to have a girlfriend isn't likely to make them feel better.
> 
> So, they're going to be a possible danger to society whether or not someone labels them as "incels".


Making prostitution legal and socially acceptable would help.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> Yes because...."I will die without vagina" AND "her vagina ain't gold - don't put the ***** on a pedestal!"
> 
> Cognitive dissonance powered by the red pill lol


The red pill largely consists of replacing the first statement with the second.


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I am concerned about the health of the fish.....

Seriously though if there is a way to make incels happy and stop complaining, it seems worth a bit of effort. 



ConanHub said:


> Snapping pathetic murderers who target women who won't be owned by them and then feeding their incel parts to the fish makes me happy.
> 
> What about my happiness?


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agree 100%. 



tech-novelist said:


> Making prostitution legal and socially acceptable would help.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Just curious - in what sort of situation did you run into them? I know that they exist, just never cross paths with them. Do people talk like that in real life, or only online where they can hide? (do they admit to their identities?).


I have never met someone who spoke like this in real life. Only online dating.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Fortunately, my wife grants me these things without judgment, laying guilt, or expecting anything in return.


It never occurred to me that it was something I could or should "grant". He asked if he "could" go out with his friend the other day. It meant is there anything that I forgot to put on the calendar.... not does the household authority grant permission to his lesser self. In fact, it is one of the things I have always valued about him and have been attracted to. He is a grown up man



> For my part, I grant her same, I don't abuse her good will, and I pay positive attention to her and remain present with her the rest of the time.
> 
> It's really quite easy when both are committed to each other having a well rounded life, which must include some away time to go with all that together time, especially to do those things the other is not interested in.


Yup.


----------



## Laurentium (May 21, 2017)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> MGTOW should be every third weekend of the month for married men. All the men should get away from the womenz and do whatever man stuff the want. It will be like fight club, except it may involve watching lots of football and drinking copiously without any high pitched nagging.


Only once a month? Are you kidding?


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

tech-novelist said:


> Making prostitution legal and socially acceptable would help.


It wouldn't help. Based on everything I have read, the problem isn't accessibility to sex. The problem is the need to be desired. Case in point....prostitution is legal and socially acceptable in Australia and yet the Incel movement is on the rise.


----------



## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

Lila said:


> It wouldn't help. Based on everything I have read, the problem isn't accessibility to sex. The problem is the need to be desired. Case in point....prostitution is legal and socially acceptable in Australia and yet the Incel movement is on the rise.


Are you trying to say Brenton Tarrant is an incel? That guy had a girlfriend. He obviously wasn't an incel.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I have seen both genders do it. I have personally seen more men do it but I am a man so I am probably privy to more experiences in seeing men in this situation than a woman would be.
> 
> I have been flabbergasted at the entitlement I've witnessed it in very average or below average specimens of manhood.


*Agreed.*

That's why I've always said that men don't own mirrors. You always see these middle-aged or older guys who are bald or balding with white or grey hair (what's left of it, anyway), most with craggy wrinkled faces, they're out of shape and just generally* unattractive as hell*, and they're hitting on pretty, much younger women. LMAO!! I used to see it all the time when I'd go out with my girlfriends for a girl's night out, and I've had plenty of older, unattractive men hitting on me as well and sending drinks to me, etc. They act as though they're somehow entitled to have young beautiful women instead of dating in their OWN age-appropriate group. Unless these sad sacks are *really* cashed up (or manage to find a girl with serious daddy issues), they're *not* going to be leaving with the 25 year old smokin' hot blond no matter how deserving of her they think they are. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## PreRaph (Jun 13, 2017)

I think the socialization of young boys in this society leaves a lot to be desired, and because of that they themselves appear less desirable.

Anyway, it is an interesting stat because if it means that more women are having sex in this age group than men, then do I conclude that more women are sleeping with less men? In other words, there are some men who are getting it in droves and some men who aren't getting anything, and more and more women are going after the same men? Hmmmm


----------



## ThirtyYearsIn (Sep 20, 2014)

A wildly unrealistic sense of entitlement is certainly not unique to men. If anything, women win that one.

Conventional warfare traditionally thinned the ranks of men in society. All the weak men who would have been marched off to war to die in a trench a few generations ago now remain in society. Modern 'warriors' sit in trailer and play video games where they blow up things from 1000 miles away. 

The rules changed and men are reacting. They are constantly told they don't matter and their time is over and they are all the bad guys. They mock and scorn the idea that it is a man's world despite the fact that men built every modern convenience, your house, car, roads, electricity, computer, internet, heat and air conditioning. There is no appreciation or recognition of what men built, only contempt and blame for the problems we still face. 

I can relate to mgtows and red pill. Everything I was taught was a goddamn lie. If I hadn't locked my lovely wife down 34 years ago, I would probably be one of them. If anything ever happens to her I don't think I will venture out into the disgusting and toxic modern dating world where people seem shallow and focused on the short term and seem to have no loyalty or inclination to build anything meaningful and lasting. The game is rigged and I think young men are wise to opt out of playing it.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> We will part ways on this one.
> 
> If you don't mind me giving your wife a little work on the side or giving one of your legal daughters some on the job training or even an internship, then at least I won't think you are hypocritical even if unhinged.
> 
> ...


There is nothing intrinsically wrong with prostitution.
Yes, prostitution has its drawbacks, but so do all other jobs.
Of course it is not for everyone, but for the right person it can be an extremely lucrative profession with good working conditions.
Most occupations require selling your body for something, even if that something means sitting in a desk chair or running around a hospital for 8 hours a day.

As for your comments about my wife and daughters, those are irrelevant and uncalled for. I don't discuss your family, nor do I suggest that every woman should somehow be considered a prostitute.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Lila said:


> It wouldn't help. Based on everything I have read, the problem isn't accessibility to sex. The problem is the need to be desired. Case in point....prostitution is legal and socially acceptable in Australia and yet the Incel movement is on the rise.


Not just desired. But valuable, desired and awesome to the mega-hotties. It is no less than they "deserve".


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Lila said:


> It wouldn't help. Based on everything I have read, the problem isn't accessibility to sex. The problem is the need to be desired. Case in point....prostitution is legal and socially acceptable in Australia and yet the Incel movement is on the rise.


In some cases I'm sure you're right. But in other cases I'm sure that there are men who would be happy to pay someone for sex.

In any event, there are no downsides to making prostitution great again. >


----------



## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

ThirtyYearsIn said:


> Modern 'warriors' sit in trailer and play video games where they blow up things from 1000 miles away.


I take it you haven't heard of infantry soldiers?


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

BruceBanner said:


> Are you trying to say Brenton Tarrant is an incel? That guy had a girlfriend. He obviously wasn't an incel.


No. He was just a straight up terrorist.

The men I mentioned in my posts up thread all left manifestos expounding on the Incel Movement or admitted that their actions were driven by their frustrations over not being able to find a girlfriend.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

tech-novelist said:


> The red pill largely consists of replacing the first statement with the second.


I would believe that if they did not still feel entitled to sex from the gender they claim to hate.

The bottom line is these guys are unhealthy whiners. Yep, I mean all of them.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

> Seriously though if there is a way to make incels happy and stop complaining, it seems worth a bit of effort.


No it doesn't. You don't reward bitter, whiny, unhealthy entitled people.

It's like when my kids were preschoolers. I always said no to their request if they were whiny and demanding.


----------



## ThirtyYearsIn (Sep 20, 2014)

Personal said:


> I take it you haven't heard of infantry soldiers?


The number of infantry soldiers who die in modern warfare is a tiny fraction of those who have historically died in conventional war, like on the order of 1/100. It is a ****ty job but it is far more safe today compared to WW2 when 300 thousand died in 4 years. There was 3 thousand dead in Iraq over 8 years. Better training, intel, recon and medical evac means soldiers are much more likely to come home. We bomb the **** out of a place then the infantry goes in to count dead bodies. The cost in terms of american lives is drastically different than it has been in the past.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> I would believe that if they did not still feel entitled to sex from the gender they claim to hate.
> 
> The bottom line is these guys are unhealthy whiners. Yep, I mean all of them.


Incels haven't taken the red pill.
If they had, they would be more realistic and would develop a plan to solve their problem.
They are just losers who are indeed whiners.


----------



## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

Lila said:


> No. He was just a straight up terrorist.
> 
> The men I mentioned in my posts up thread all left manifestos expounding on the Incel Movement or admitted that their actions were driven by their frustrations over not being able to find a girlfriend.


Like Elliot Rodger.


----------



## Lila (May 30, 2014)

AandM said:


> Lila said:
> 
> 
> > No. He was just a straight up terrorist.
> ...


Yes. He's one of the three I mentioned.


----------



## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

Lila said:


> Yes. He's one of the three I mentioned.


Ok. I'm just now skimming this thread, so I missed that post. My bad.


----------



## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

Looking at the original post, I see that the number of celibate men and women more or less track together until 2007-2008. Free, easily accessible porn site started proliferating then. 2007 was when the first iPhone was released. Perhaps the easy availability of porn, with more opportunity due to access to it in more private locations in the house, warped the expectations of many of these incels? Isn't it mostly younger men participating on incel sites?

I dunno.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

AandM said:


> Looking at the original post, I see that the number of celibate men and women more or less track together until 2007-2008. Free, easily accessible porn site started proliferating then. 2007 was when the first iPhone was released. Perhaps the easy availability of porn, with more opportunity due to access to it in more private locations in the house, warped the expectations of many of these incels? *Isn't it mostly younger men participating on incel sites?*
> 
> I dunno.


I think so. The older men who divorced an awful woman and therefore assume all women are awful go to TheRedPill....


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> I would believe that if they did not still feel entitled to sex from the gender they claim to hate.
> 
> The bottom line is these guys are unhealthy whiners. Yep, I mean all of them.


Something coalesces here about what I have been thinking. 

I said I don't read incel boards. The truth is, I don't read incel boards _anymore_. I saw way fewer incels who wanted to be desired than ones who thought things like that rape should not be illegal as it infringes on their right to take what they want. That the whole idea that women are people is nonsense. Their purpose IS to serve men. It is our nature and deep down we really want to be bapped on the head and dragged back to the cave. Etcetera... One might wonder why I don't read on those boards anymore!

There was a parallel made between those who are disenfranchised for socio-economic reasons and the incel. I think that's crap, personally. While I will fight for every person's right to have and voice their feelings, thoughts and desires without consequence _of law_ that does not elevate every feeling or thought or desire to a meritorious one. Not all desires are moral or even healthy. And I would opine that feeling entitled to sex is immoral and very unhealthy. I would go so far as to see sex as somehow transcending the rest of the human experience and elevated in importance is just wrong. 

Interestingly enough, my anecdotal evidence seems to support that people who think right get laid more. This board talks a lot about things that, in my view and experience, have very little to do with successful mating. We have an Uhtred of Bebbenburg on this board. And a Ragnar Ragnarson. Why are they the ones who are central to a really cool and fun story and make the women's panties wet? Why does no one even remember the name of the character who vocalizes indifference to a woman who is actually interested in him vs just taking her? Yet Beocca is actually hot in the series? Ok I guess many won't get the simile. 

So I would not mind if every incel **** basically froze off over night. That would be nothing short of justice.


----------



## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> MGTOW should be every third weekend of the month for married men. All the men should get away from the womenz and do whatever man stuff the want. It will be like fight club, except it may involve watching lots of football and drinking copiously without any high pitched nagging.


I guess this is tongue and cheek, but I don't feel this way... 

I however don't want time away from my GF, fiancé really. If I wanted time away from her, I would not be with her. I like spending time with her, I want her in my bed every night and all that stuff...

Now, I guess I have guy time but I don't think of it that way. Example, me and the boys, because we are all male in the new band, have a great time at rehearsal. We knock back a few, and sometimes go out after, but I don't think about it as guys time, it is rehearsal time. 

I don't hunt anymore, and have nothing against it, but it happens really early in the morning, and it is really cold, and frankly I would rather be making love to my GF than driving a 100 miles to a deer lease. 

But if I did still hunt, it would be because I wanted to hunt and not because I wanted to be "away from women". 

Same with going shooting, which I do like to do but don't have time for as much as I would like. If I am going to the range, GF would be super pissed if she did not go as well. 

GF and I watch big sporting events together, so that is not an issue for me. Sometimes it is a couples party when that stuff is going on.

And, I like to take her shopping. Hope I don't have to turn in my man card, but I like it. She likes the clothes I pick out for her, evidently she likes that I have an eye for women's clothing. 

Although, I personally wish for more cleavage and I do push the envelope on that part, but for the most part she goes with what I pick out for her. It seems to make her happy, plus I pick out clothes faster than she does and she likes that as well. 

So for me, I am looking for ways for us to spend more time together, not less...


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> I guess this is tongue and cheek, but I don't feel this way...
> 
> I however don't want time away from my GF, fiancé really. If I wanted time away from her, I would not be with her. I like spending time with her, I want her in my bed every night and all that stuff...
> 
> ...


There is a lot here that resonates with me. After 25 years, DH is still my favorite person to hang with. He seems to feel the same way as evidenced by his actions. When we do stuff apart, it seems to be more about the thing than needing/wanting to be apart. He has some friends with whom he is close. One is great people but she and I don't share much in common. The other I find so annoying I want to strangle her. Best if he hangs with them without me. I have activities that he HATES. No point in his going! But he does not have an interest in getting away from female (me). Nor do I want to get away from his maleness...


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

personofinterest said:


> I think so. The older men who divorced an awful woman and therefore assume all women are awful go to TheRedPill....


They don't red pill so much as whine incessantly seems to me.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> *Agreed.*
> 
> That's why I've always said that men don't own mirrors. You always see these middle-aged or older guys who are bald or balding with white or grey hair (what's left of it, anyway), most with craggy wrinkled faces, they're out of shape and just generally* unattractive as hell*, and they're hitting on pretty, much younger women. LMAO!! I used to see it all the time when I'd go out with my girlfriends for a girl's night out, and I've had plenty of older, unattractive men hitting on me as well and sending drinks to me, etc. They act as though they're somehow entitled to have young beautiful women instead of dating in their OWN age-appropriate group. Unless these sad sacks are *really* cashed up (or manage to find a girl with serious daddy issues), they're *not* going to be leaving with the 25 year old smokin' hot blond no matter how deserving of her they think they are. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


I've heard the difference between the sexes on this matter described a follows:

Women are very particular fishermen, they only attempt to catch the best fish.

Men cast as big a net as possible and then choose the best of what's in the net. 

That seems right to me.

So, just because an unattractive old guy hits on a young attractive woman, it doesn't mean that he expects to succeed.

And, I don't get the use of "entitlement" in these cases. "Wanting" to have sex with a hot young woman isn't the same a feeling that the world owes you sex with a hot young woman just because you exist and you're justified in complaining when it doesn't happen.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

PreRaph said:


> I think the socialization of young boys in this society leaves a lot to be desired, and because of that they themselves appear less desirable.
> 
> Anyway, it is an interesting stat because if it means that more women are having sex in this age group than men, then do I conclude that more women are sleeping with less men? In other words, there are some men who are getting it in droves and some men who aren't getting anything, and more and more women are going after the same men? Hmmmm


That's the hypothesis


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> That's the hypothesis


Seems like a fair one to me.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

AandM said:


> Looking at the original post, I see that the number of celibate men and women more or less track together until 2007-2008. Free, easily accessible porn site started proliferating then. 2007 was when the first iPhone was released. Perhaps the easy availability of porn, with more opportunity due to access to it in more private locations in the house, warped the expectations of many of these incels? Isn't it mostly younger men participating on incel sites?
> 
> I dunno.


If porn has anything to do with it, it's not that their expectations were raised; it's that porn provided an easy alternative to actually meeting and, eventually, having sex with real women.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

personofinterest said:


> I think so. The older men who divorced an awful woman and therefore assume all women are awful go to TheRedPill....


I think they'd most likely go to MGTOW and just give up on women.


----------



## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I think so. The older men who divorced an awful woman and therefore assume all women are awful go to TheRedPill....


Pretty sure those men go to MGTOW.


----------



## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

Buddy400 said:


> If porn has anything to do with it, it's not that their expectations were raised; it's that porn provided an easy alternative to actually meeting and, eventually, having sex with real women.


I thought that one of the most common gripes is not just that the girls don't like them, but hot, beautiful girls don't like them.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Something coalesces here about what I have been thinking.
> 
> I said I don't read incel boards. The truth is, I don't read incel boards _anymore_. I saw way fewer incels who wanted to be desired than *ones who thought things like that rape should not be illegal as it infringes on their right to take what they want. That the whole idea that women are people is nonsense. Their purpose IS to serve men.* It is our nature and deep down we really want to be bapped on the head and dragged back to the cave. Etcetera... One might wonder why I don't read on those boards anymore!


I find it hard to believe that anyone could be serious saying things like the bolded. I'd suspect they were just talking to hear the sound of their own voices. I don't have any sympathy for incels anyway, but if their serious, that's laughable.

I guess in a spot like this, feminists would be saying that the radicals saying crazy things don't represent feminism.

I'm guessing that the same sort of thing is happening here.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> I find it hard to believe that anyone could be serious saying things like the bolded.


Shrug. It's out there. 



> I'd suspect they were just talking to hear the sound of their own voices. I don't have any sympathy for incels anyway, but if their serious, that's laughable.


It would be laughable if it weren't a little frightening.



> I guess in a spot like this, feminists would be saying that the radicals saying crazy things don't represent feminism.
> 
> I'm guessing that the same sort of thing is happening here.


Shrug.


ETA: Wiki comes up as first hit

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incel

"At least four mass murders, resulting in 45 deaths, have been committed in North America by men who have either self-identified as incels or who had mentioned incel-related names and writings in their private writings or Internet postings."

I don't have much opinion on Wiki as a source. 

I could not find a mass murder committed in NA by people espousing feminism despite its much longer history. But then. These two movements must be quite equivalent.

I cannot find a link discussing more rational incels. I would love it if anyone finds such to link it here, please.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> I think they'd most likely go to MGTOW and just give up on women.


The ones I encounter still want women for their vagina, they just hate everything less about them.

Which makes them pathetic.


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

AandM said:


> I thought that one of the most common gripes is not just that the girls don't like them, but hot, beautiful girls don't like them.


I agree with this. I spent a LOT of time on incel forums before they were shut down. I guess my curiosity got the best of me. A small percentage of them I actually felt sorry for. Like....a really, really small percentage of them. This is going to sound really mean spirited but that doesn't make it not true. These guys have very, and I mean very unrealistic expectations. They honestly expect a woman who is nine or a ten to go out with them just because they are a "good guy". Its absurd. The whole concept of *mutual* attraction is lost on these guys. Basically its a bunch of guys that are not attractive and also bitter to boot. With that said not all of them look like mutants, but the normal looking ones are filled with so much self hate and hatred towards women that they are also lost causes. They also have pseudoscience that is much worse than the Red Pill appropriately called the Black Pill. Its like a Red Pill on steroids with a bit of racism added into it for good measure. The funny thing about the Black Pill to me was it reads like the worst self help material ever. My translation of it was, you were born a loser, you will always be a loser, you are also never going to get laid and then you die. Its very bleak and tells incels that basically they shouldn't even bother. Wow.....really helpful stuff LoL.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> I agree with this. I spent a LOT of time on incel forums before they were shut down. I guess my curiosity got the best of me. A small percentage of them I actually felt sorry for. Like....a really, really small percentage of them. This is going to sound really mean spirited but that doesn't make it not true. These guys have very, and I mean very unrealistic expectations. They honestly expect a woman who is nine or a ten to go out with them just because they are a "good guy". Its absurd. The whole concept of *mutual* attraction is lost on these guys. Basically its a bunch of guys that are not attractive and also bitter to boot. With that said not all of them look like mutants, but the normal looking ones are filled with so much self hate and hatred towards women that they are also lost causes. They also have pseudoscience that is much worse than the Red Pill appropriately called the Black Pill. Its like a Red Pill on steroids with a bit of racism added into it for good measure. The funny thing about the Black Pill to me was it reads like the worst self help material ever. My translation of it was, you were born a loser, you will always be a loser, you are also never going to get laid and then you die. Its very bleak and tells incels that basically they shouldn't even bother. Wow.....really helpful stuff LoL.


THIS is what I think of when I think of incel.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

Buddy400 said:


> If porn has anything to do with it, it's not that their expectations were raised; it's that porn provided an easy alternative to actually meeting and, eventually, having sex with real women.


Logic tells me this is the most likely reason if the answer is attempted to be filtered to a sentence or two.

But I'm sure I don't know everything so there may be a better answer, and more reasons to lump together. 

I just can't grok why young men aren't chasing women any chance they get.

There sure are a lot of pages to this topic!!


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Oy. Just found an actual incel forum. I knew there was a reason to not go there.


----------



## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Oy. Just found an actual incel forum. I knew there was a reason to not go there.


I've never read such a thing. I remember having to look it up to find out what the term meant, a while ago, but don't remember much. 

If the sites are as described in posts above, that's terrible stuff.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

AandM said:


> I thought that one of the most common gripes is not just that the girls don't like them, but hot, beautiful girls don't like them.


Well, the hoy, beautiful girls usually only go for the hot, handsome guys.

And women with average (or below) probably wish that hot, handsome guys liked them.

It's been like that forever. So, if that's their main concern, they exist in fantasy land.

Note on logic: If the hot, beautiful girls went for the incels, then all the other guys would be complaining (and become the new incels?). 

There aren't enough hot, beautiful women to go around.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ReformedHubby said:


> I agree with this. I spent a LOT of time on incel forums before they were shut down. I guess my curiosity got the best of me. A small percentage of them I actually felt sorry for. Like....a really, really small percentage of them. This is going to sound really mean spirited but that doesn't make it not true. These guys have very, and I mean very unrealistic expectations. They honestly expect a woman who is nine or a ten to go out with them just because they are a "good guy". Its absurd. The whole concept of *mutual* attraction is lost on these guys.


Not just lost on them... somehow offensive. That they "have to" even consider that is, itself, problematic. 



> Basically its a bunch of guys that are not attractive and also bitter to boot. With that said not all of them look like mutants, but the normal looking ones are filled with so much self hate and hatred towards women that they are also lost causes. They also have pseudoscience that is much worse than the Red Pill appropriately called the Black Pill. Its like a Red Pill on steroids with a bit of racism added into it for good measure. The funny thing about the Black Pill to me was it reads like the worst self help material ever. My translation of it was, you were born a loser, you will always be a loser, you are also never going to get laid and then you die. Its very bleak and tells incels that basically they shouldn't even bother. Wow.....really helpful stuff LoL.


Oh Lord In Heaven. I just read a Black Pill screed. THAT particular bit of ugly is news to me.


----------



## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

The Black Pill doesn't have any racism. It just acknowledges that being a certain race can make things easier or more difficult for you in the dating game. Especially if you live in the west. Which dating site statistics have proven plenty of times already.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> Shrug. It's out there.
> 
> 
> It would be laughable if it weren't a little frightening.
> ...


Well, men are far more likely to be mass murderers. So that, no doubt, is the reason for the gender difference.

Four mass murderers were pissed about being incels (along with other gripes)?

That actually seems like a pretty low percentage of mass murderers. Seems like fewer than those who did it in the name of Islam (as an example).

Incelaphobia?


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

ReformedHubby said:


> I agree with this. I spent a LOT of time on incel forums before they were shut down. I guess my curiosity got the best of me. A small percentage of them I actually felt sorry for. Like....a really, really small percentage of them. This is going to sound really mean spirited but that doesn't make it not true. These guys have very, and I mean very unrealistic expectations. They honestly expect a woman who is nine or a ten to go out with them just because they are a "good guy". Its absurd. The whole concept of *mutual* attraction is lost on these guys. Basically its a bunch of guys that are not attractive and also bitter to boot. With that said not all of them look like mutants, but the normal looking ones are filled with so much self hate and hatred towards women that they are also lost causes. They also have pseudoscience that is much worse than the Red Pill appropriately called the Black Pill. Its like a Red Pill on steroids with a bit of racism added into it for good measure. The funny thing about the Black Pill to me was it reads like the worst self help material ever. My translation of it was, y*ou were born a loser, you will always be a loser, you are also never going to get laid and then you die. Its very bleak and tells incels that basically they shouldn't even bother.* Wow.....really helpful stuff LoL.


I don't think that's a good sales pitch for a self-help book!


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> I just can't grok why young men aren't chasing women any chance they get.


You've obviously had good results from chasing women around.

If you hadn't, your view would be different.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

NobodySpecial said:


> Not just lost on them... somehow offensive. That they "have to" even consider that is, itself, problematic.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh Lord In Heaven. I just read a Black Pill screed. THAT particular bit of ugly is news to me.


Black pill?


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

ReformedHubby said:


> These guys have very, and I mean very unrealistic expectations. They honestly expect a woman who is nine or a ten to go out with them just because they are a "good guy". Its absurd. The whole concept of *mutual* attraction is lost on these guys.


This is it.

I've read one incel screed. It was in the format of an incel talking to a hot, beautiful woman and pointing out all sexual things she would do for a "alpha" guy who treated her badly and, no doubt, would refuse to do for him, a "good" guy who would be nice to her.

People, men and women, are attracted to what they're attracted to. Even if a woman was attracted to a guy who was cruel to her and decided to date a "good guy" who was nice to her, she wouldn't be able to go through with it because she's not attracted to him. In fact, if it happened, he wouldn't be happy because she still wouldn't be attracted to him.

It's the same the other way around. A guy does everything for a cruel woman who is hot and beautiful. A plain, somewhat overweight woman might think, why does he pursue the other woman when she'd love him and give him everything he needed to be happy? 

On the other hand, the Red Pill says the reason you're not succeeding with women is that you are trying to be what you *think* women want; not what they *actually* want. So, focus on what women really want and you'll have more success. 

Is the Red Pill right about what they say women really want? I don't know. If they're wrong, you'd expect the movement to die out due to a lack of results. If they're wrong, I think that women can safely ignore them.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Buddy400 said:


> You've obviously had good results from chasing women around.
> 
> If you hadn't, your view would be different.


I was a late bloomer physically... and at a young age rather nerdy to boot. So my "success" chasing girls was rather limited.

Didn't slow me down one bit. 

I also can't imagine not giving it a go, even in the face of failure.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> It isn't uncalled for at all.
> 
> If you believe there is nothing wrong with prostitution and a lot right with it, your women should lead the way.
> 
> ...


One can think that alcohol should be legal while choosing not to drink.


----------



## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I was a late bloomer physically... and at a young age rather nerdy to boot. So my "success" chasing girls was rather limited.
> 
> Didn't slow me down one bit.
> 
> I also can't imagine not giving it a go, even in the face of failure.


Persistence is a virtue for a reason


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

NobodySpecial said:


> Not just lost on them... somehow offensive. That they "have to" even consider that is, itself, problematic.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh Lord In Heaven. I just read a Black Pill screed. THAT particular bit of ugly is news to me.


Just read a little bit on this black pill movement.

Just a bunch of super depressed guys keeping each other super depressed and bringing anyone down with them they can.
I can definitely see how this would work to spiral men into despair, suicide, rage and even murder after a while.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Buddy400 said:


> This is it.
> 
> I've read one incel screed. It was in the format of an incel talking to a hot, beautiful woman and pointing out all sexual things she would do for a "alpha" guy who treated her badly and, no doubt, would refuse to do for him, a "good" guy who would be nice to her.
> 
> ...


It's not so much about what women (or men) want, that's theoretical, it's more about what women (or men) actually choose, That's measurable. 

My thinking on why young men are having a lot less sex is because they aren't in the places they need to be, doing the things they need to be doing to meet the interested parties.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> One can think that alcohol should be legal while choosing not to drink.


So buying alcohol is the same as buying your daughter?

You might think your wife, daughter, mother or sister being bought for sex is the same as buying a beer but I can't see any correlation myself.

I f a man truly believes prostitution is just fine for other men's wives and daughters, it better be just fine for his as well.

Every prostitute is someone's daughter, possibly wife or mother, sister, cousin, aunt...

Normalizing the purchase of them for sex better be an argument made by men who actually believe their women doing it is normal.

I have found every man making the argument believes it should be normal for others but not themselves.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> So buying alcohol is the same as buying your daughter?


???

That is _not _what is being said here.

Personally, I don't think prostitution is a good choice for _any_ woman. I think it would be sad choice for any woman, not just my kin.

But that doesn't mean I feel the need to outlaw it for those who would choose to do it. 

Think of it as a standard libertarian thought. One can believe something is bad without trying to deny others the choice.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> > One can think that alcohol should be legal while choosing not to drink.
> ...


Thats why you find the right woman and raise your daughters right. Just because hooking is a legit profession, doesn't mean I want 'my women' doing it. They wouldn't be my women for long!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> ???
> 
> That is _not _what is being said here.
> 
> ...


The original subject of my retort was absolutely normalizing prostitution and I have yet to meet the madman that actually means it. Normalizing something means it is normal. Like dating. So if it is normal, their own women better be first in line otherwise it is only normal for "others".

BTW, I am far more in favor of going after losers who buy women than the women themselves.


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## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> The original subject of my retort was absolutely normalizing prostitution and I have yet to meat the madman that actually means it. Normalizing something means it is normal. Like dating. So if it is normal, their own women better be first in line otherwise it is only normal for "others".
> 
> BTW, I am far more in favor of going after losers who buy women than the women themselves.


If it's consensual why do you care?


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> Rocky Mountain Yeti said:
> 
> 
> > ???
> ...


Well, I dont think anyone is in favor of normalizing it. People are in favor of decriminalizing it and regulating the eff out of it. If Joe Shmoe wants some sex cuz he cant get any and he finds a pretty chick online willing to meet him for 200 bucks, well its a win win.... an exchange for services has ocurred. If its consensual why do I care? Why do you care? Its not like if it were legalized your wife would have to sign up.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> The original subject of my retort was absolutely normalizing prostitution and I have yet to meet the madman that actually means it. Normalizing something means it is normal. Like dating. So if it is normal, their own women better be first in line otherwise it is only normal for "others".
> 
> BTW, I am far more in favor of going after losers who buy women than the women themselves.


I don't see decriminalizing and normalizing as the same thing. Lots of things are technically legal, but still carry a distinctly negative stigma.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

BruceBanner said:


> If it's consensual why do you care?


I don't.

I am against society normalizing prostitution and I would like to see men promoting the normalization of it be encouraging their wives and daughters about how right and normal it really is before encouraging "others".


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well, I dont think anyone is in favor of normalizing it. People are in favor of decriminalizing it and regulating the eff out of it. If Joe Shmoe wants some sex cuz he cant get any and he finds a pretty chick online willing to meet him for 200 bucks, well its a win win.... an exchange for services has ocurred. If its consensual why do I care? Why do you care? Its not like if it were legalized your wife would have to sign up.


I am still opposed to the legalization of prostitution but I am adamantly opposed to normalizing it.


----------



## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Well that is an interesting twist on the topic. 
problem 1: Really the younger generations are not paying for things they can learn to do themselves. 
problem 2: Sex is not the goal, the girlfriend experience is the desire.
problem 3: There is a huge distance from the ideal of consenting adults to the reality of human trafficking.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Well, I dont think anyone is in favor of normalizing it. People are in favor of decriminalizing it and regulating the eff out of it. If Joe Shmoe wants some sex cuz he cant get any and he finds a pretty chick online willing to meet him for 200 bucks, well its a win win.... an exchange for services has ocurred. If its consensual why do I care? Why do you care? Its not like if it were legalized your wife would have to sign up.


I am still opposed to the legalization of prostitution but I am adamantly opposed to normalizing it.

Normalizing it like saying it is equivalent to anything else is ridiculous.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> If you believe there is nothing wrong with prostitution and a lot right with it, your women should lead the way.


I live in a country where prostitution is legal and live in a state where prostitution is also regulated.

Although I have never paid a fee in exchange for any sexual activity, I am not opposed to prostitution. Likewise absent coercion or force, I do not think prostitution is morally wrong either. 

As to "my" women leading the way. My third most significant sexual partner and third longest sexual relationship, was with a woman who for a time did some sex work in Japan. She didn't regret that choice, and even though it wasn't always fun, she said there were lots of times when it was, she also spoke fondly of one of her clients as well.

She was honest and upfront about her experience with me, and I have had no problem with that then or now. That said though our relationship didn't last, I still think of her with high regard and consider myself fortunate to have known her.

As to anyone else I have a relationship with, it is up to them what work they choose to do (sex work or otherwise).


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I dont think anyone is in favor of normalizing it. People are in favor of decriminalizing it and regulating the eff out of it. If Joe Shmoe wants some sex cuz he cant get any and he finds a pretty chick online willing to meet him for 200 bucks, well its a win win.... an exchange for services has ocurred. If its consensual why do I care? Why do you care? Its not like if it were legalized your wife would have to sign up.
> ...


I think our jails should be filled with murderers, rapists and thieves. I don't see the point in funding the state keeping non-violent people that aren't harming others behind bars. ****, the state could be making a fortune off this ****.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I don't see decriminalizing and normalizing as the same thing. Lots of things are technically legal, but still carry a distinctly negative stigma.


You and I agree here.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> I think our jails should be filled with murderers, rapists and thieves. I don't see the point in funding the state keeping non-violent people that aren't harming others behind bars. ****, the state could be making a fortune off this ****.


The state could be making a fortune off of slavery as well.

The taxation argument is a non starter.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > I think our jails should be filled with murderers, rapists and thieves. I don't see the point in funding the state keeping non-violent people that aren't harming others behind bars. ****, the state could be making a fortune off this ****.
> ...


Thats is a dumb comparison. Slavery isnt consensual.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Personal said:


> I live in a country where prostitution is legal and live in a state where prostitution is also regulated.
> 
> Although I have never paid a fee in exchange for any sexual activity, I am not opposed to prostitution. Likewise absent coercion or force, I do not think prostitution is morally wrong either.
> 
> ...


If anyone I have talked to isn't a hypocrite on this subject, I believe it is you.

Not a slam BTW.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Thats is a dumb comparison. Slavery isnt consensual.


Your argument was taxation. That alone as an argument is a non starter to consider anything.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Thats is a dumb comparison. Slavery isnt consensual.
> ...


Why? I don't like paying money for stupid stuff that has no benefit to me. Or ruining peoples future employment because they were horny.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

UpsideDownWorld11 said:


> Why? I don't like paying money for stupid stuff that has no benefit to me. Or ruining peoples future employment because they were horny.


Again, your argument was taxation. Taxation alone is a non starter argument for the normalization or legalization of anything.

You could tax anything but it doesn't mean you should legalize it for that purpose alone.

Pathetic men aren't my problem and I really enjoy it when the dumb asses do get busted for solicitation.


----------



## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

ConanHub said:


> Pathetic men aren't my problem and I really enjoy it when the dumb asses do get busted for solicitation.


That's why one should only hire escorts. They sell great conversation, and only have sex with you afterward because you're awesome.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

ConanHub said:


> UpsideDownWorld11 said:
> 
> 
> > Why? I don't like paying money for stupid stuff that has no benefit to me. Or ruining peoples future employment because they were horny.
> ...


There are plenty of reasons to legalize it besides taxation... public sanitation (testing for STDs), making it safer to girls so their pimp doesn't beat them, having security so the Johns don't kill them, enforcing age limits, ruined futures for productive men who gave into their biological instincts. The resulting benefits of placing a sin tax on it could probably pay for better roads, schools, healthcare, etc...

Plus, I wouldn't have to pay room and board for 'pathetic men' whose only crime is getting horny. That shouldn't be my problem.


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Just read a little bit on this black pill movement.
> 
> Just a bunch of super depressed guys keeping each other super depressed and bringing anyone down with them they can.
> I can definitely see how this would work to spiral men into despair, suicide, rage and even murder after a while.


Bingo....I honestly just lurked. I never bothered to post, mainly because they make it very clear they are only interested in incels being forum members. Only incels are allowed to join, and if you read enough....you will find its hard to fake being that negative all the time. I would have been sniffed out quickly. Mainly because I would have tried to help one of the few that were simply lost and fell in with that crowd.


----------



## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

BruceBanner said:


> The Black Pill doesn't have any racism. It just acknowledges that being a certain race can make things easier or more difficult for you in the dating game. Especially if you live in the west. Which dating site statistics have proven plenty of times already.


I respectfully disagree with you. Their "science" would tell you that simply being a white male gives you an additional two points in your sex rank. I will admit we all have preferences. But two points for being white? On their forums, you have all these "ethnic" incels that are usually foreign born making all these posts wishing they were white. Even going as far as saying that white males are only incels by choice, Its a bizarre universe. I don't play the race card ever, its certainly never impacted me in dating. I can only go on what I've seen on the incel forums, and those guys are race obsessed. Trust me. I've seen the photos and death threats. Good grief, you would've thought Tiger Woods was a number one on the FBI's wanted list when he was with Lindsey Vonn. They HATE seeing things like that.


----------



## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

Frankly I'm glad most of these young ass hats are not reproducing.......


----------



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Why?

What makes it different from a wide variety of other jobs that would be horrible for some people but are completely fine for others. 

Is having sex for money, really so different from bathing old people for money? 



ConanHub said:


> I am still opposed to the legalization of prostitution but I am adamantly opposed to normalizing it.
> 
> Normalizing it like saying it is equivalent to anything else is ridiculous.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Why?
> 
> What makes it different from a wide variety of other jobs that would be horrible for some people but are completely fine for others.
> 
> Is having sex for money, really so different from bathing old people for money?


If you really can't tell the difference, nothing I say will probably convince you.

If your brain can't differentiate between your daughter giving an invalid a sponge bath and her getting her cervix pounded by the penis of a john, your mind is so warped as to be alien.

Both my wife and I worked as nurses aids early in our careers and I can attest that bathing and cleaning invalids is about as sexual as having a bowel movement and far less fun.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> If you really can't tell the difference, nothing I say will probably convince you.
> 
> If your brain can't differentiate between your daughter giving an invalid a sponge bath and her getting her cervix pounded by the penis of a john, your mind is so warped as to be alien.
> 
> Both my wife and I worked as nurses aids early in our careers and I can attest that bathing and cleaning invalids is about as sexual as having a bowel movement and far less fun.


Again, you are putting false word in others' mouths. Uhtred wasn't saying sponging invalids is sexual. That is not the comparison being made. 

Agree or disagree, I understand the point to be that they are both unpleasant tasks that involve what many would consider to be repulsive or demeaning interactions with another body.


----------



## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Again, you are putting false word in others' mouths. Uhtred wasn't saying sponging invalids is sexual. That is not the comparison being made.
> 
> Agree or disagree, I understand the point to be that they are both unpleasant tasks that involve what many would consider to be repulsive or demeaning interactions with another body.


And getting her cervix massaged by john penis is a universe away in difference from bathing invalids.

I'm not missing anything here and I hardly believe you could associate having sex with caring for the cleanliness of the helpless.

These comparisons are asinine. I'm not the one who is at all unsure here.

I actually have more than two brain cells to rub together and I'm not sexually repressed or have other hangups.

If he doesn't see any difference then he should encourage friends and family that if they get tired of being a nurses assistant, by all means start making more money on their backs.

If anyone who really wants to die on this hill wants to keep comparing drinking alcohol or caring for the elderly to prostitution, by all means keep trying in vain to make an argument with someone who has made his stance clear.

If folks really believe that having their wife service johns is about as equivalent as caring for the helpless then they should just make that statement about themselves.

Asking it of me is worthless because I observe prostitution to be quite different from other things.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> And getting her cervix massaged by john penis is a universe away in difference from bathing invalids.
> 
> I'm not missing anything here and I hardly believe you could associate having sex with caring for the cleanliness of the helpless.
> 
> ...


You're still forcing comparisons that aren't being made. Nobody's saying there is _no_ difference. Nobody has said prostitution is a good thing. 


We all know you are intelligent, and generally a thoughtful poster who has made many valuable contributions to our discussions. But you seem to have a real dark spot here that has you seeing things that aren't there. Case in point. You keep talking about guys being okay with their "wives servicing johns," when nobody has said any such thing, or even anything you could rationally conclude even hints at that. You are making grand, unfounded leaps in logic to get to that point. It sounds like theres something horrific related to prostitution in your past as this feels a lot like triggered responses.


----------



## UpsideDownWorld11 (Feb 14, 2018)

I dont know how decriminalizing prostitution equals your wife servicing Johns... Do you really think everyones wife will jump in once its legal?


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Buddy400 said:


> I think they'd most likely go to MGTOW and just give up on women.


My ex-wife was awful.

Old members here know my story.

My current wife is excellent.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

AandM said:


> I thought that one of the most common gripes is not just that the girls don't like them, but hot, beautiful girls don't like them.


"Incel" means "involuntary celibate", i.e., no woman will have sex with them.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> @Rocky Mountain Yeti
> 
> You were saying?


Already explained. Both are unpleasant tasks that folks generally wouldn't do without monetary compensation.

Yes there are differences and we can get all noble about wiping an invalid's ass, but the comparison holds true _at least on that one point _ if not overall. 

Now to be clear, I'm not equating the two. I'm just saying I can see the point of comparison without having to equate the parts that aren't meant to be equated.


----------



## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ConanHub said:


> I also don't have a particularly dark spot concerning prostitution personally.
> 
> I am extremely tired of the hypocrisy of those that want to view women's bodies as sexual commodities as long as it isn't their women.
> 
> I make it personal because it is apparently easy to view "others" as commodities and they need to look a little closer to home if they really want to believe it about "others".


But it's exactly that kind of mischaracterization that makes you appear less than fully rational here. Nobody has said a womans body is a commodity, be it our own wives or some unknown random woman. 

By that argumen, we could say that anybody who does physical work of any kind... well, their body is a commodity. For others, if not their body, their mind. And just to be clear before you put false words in my keyboard, I am not equating being a ditch digger or scientist with being a prostitute. Clearly, there are differences. But the point stands that these are all forms of exchanging some capacity of our physical being for renumeration. So merely calling it body as a commodity is no differentiation. 

Now any argument you want to make against prostitution on moral grounds, I'm probably not going to argue to the contrary.


----------



## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

*Moderator notice:-*

This thread has become unpleasant and off topic.


----------



## BruceBanner (May 6, 2018)

ReformedHubby said:


> I respectfully disagree with you. Their "science" would tell you that simply being a white male gives you an additional two points in your sex rank. I will admit we all have preferences. But two points for being white? On their forums, you have all these "ethnic" incels that are usually foreign born making all these posts wishing they were white. Even going as far as saying that white males are only incels by choice, Its a bizarre universe. I don't play the race card ever, its certainly never impacted me in dating. I can only go on what I've seen on the incel forums, and those guys are race obsessed. Trust me. I've seen the photos and death threats. Good grief, you would've thought Tiger Woods was a number one on the FBI's wanted list when he was with Lindsey Vonn. They HATE seeing things like that.


It doesn't matter how many points white males get. They obviously have an easier time than asian males when it comes to dating. Also I'm curious what's your race?


----------



## AandM (Jan 30, 2019)

tech-novelist said:


> "Incel" means "involuntary celibate", i.e., no woman will have sex with them.


Yes, but is that true, or do they have ridiculously out-of-whack expectations? Look at Rodgers. He didn't just want love and sex, he wanted beautiful high status girls to fall all over themselves to be with him?

I remember this one guy in my class in high school. He was short, slight, and weird. Was in the general track classes. No sports or extracurricular activities. I don't know if he had any friends. Started leaving drawings and love notes to one of the cheerleaders (she complained to us at lunch about this a number of occasions. Not mockingly, just bothered.) She - nicely - rebuffed his "advances". Eventually, the drawings she would find in her were violent images of him hurting her. It stopped after he had a good "talking to" by some of the guys.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Buddy400 said:


> This is it.
> 
> I've read one incel screed. It was in the format of an incel talking to a hot, beautiful woman and pointing out all sexual things she would do for a "alpha" guy who treated her badly and, no doubt, would refuse to do for him, a "good" guy who would be nice to her.
> 
> ...


The things that irritate many (some? just me?) women is twofold

- The notion that these "good guys" are, in fact, good guys. I've talked about this before.
- The red pill stuff is not itself objectionable, depending on which screed you are reading. It's the application in terms of "results". What are desirable results.

The notion that people want what they want and it just IS A FACT and that some people want a female accessory who is what they want, detached as it were from their own humanity. And this is OK. It makes perfect sense because, well, male. Well I don't like that. There's nothing I can do about it. And that is ok.


----------



## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Buddy400 said:
> 
> 
> > This is it.
> ...


Ditto


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

biofury said:


> that's why one should only hire escorts. They sell great conversation, and only have sex with you afterward because you're awesome.


what??


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> The things that irritate many (some? just me?) women is twofold
> 
> - The notion that these "good guys" are, in fact, good guys. I've talked about this before.
> - The red pill stuff is not itself objectionable, depending on which screed you are reading. It's the application in terms of "results". What are desirable results.
> ...


There is something important here I'm not sure what it is. 

A- The difference between a good guy and a poser. It turns out that if a person does the things that good people do consistently, eventually they become indistinguishable from a good person. The suspicion of an ulterior motive will always exist in the paranoid mind, the actual existence of the ulterior motive is irrelevant.

B- What are the desirable results? Here are some popular results. Awareness, That others understand the problems. Emancipation, freedom from enslavement to a corrupt system. Self empowerment, Knowledge to guide or actions towards a brighter future. 

C- People as accessories. You are right this evil is particularly prevalent. Also prevalent are the number of people eager to be accessories.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> There is something important here I'm not sure what it is.
> 
> A- The difference between a good guy and a poser. It turns out that if a person does the things that good people do consistently, eventually they become indistinguishable from a good person. The suspicion of an ulterior motive will always exist in the paranoid mind, the actual existence of the ulterior motive is irrelevant.
> [\quote]
> ...


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> Mr. Nail said:
> 
> 
> > There is something important here I'm not sure what it is.
> ...


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Mr. Nail said:


> NobodySpecial said:
> 
> 
> > yes, yes, the poser seeking to win some*thing* that can't be earned.
> ...


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

"Incel" means "involuntary celibate", i.e., no woman will have sex with them.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What ever happened to ...... Don't act like a douche bag and perhaps someone will be attracted to you?

I mean really ..... who can blame woman for not sleeping with these turds ??????????

I bet if any of them had just half a brain they could find some fetish sub-group of woman that want to pour themselves all over the bottom of the barrel / worst of the bunch.

But then again that might take some effort to find ....... God forbid they look in the mirror to see the problem.

involuntary ..... more like COMPLETELY VOLUNTARY...... but then they would have to be accountable for themselves ......can't have that !!


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Mr.Married said:


> "Incel" means "involuntary celibate", i.e., no woman will have sex with them.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...


That made me laugh albeit ruefully.


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> what??


Sarcasm. Bad jest.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

My head hurts too much to hit that wall again.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

tech-novelist said:


> "Incel" means "involuntary celibate", i.e., no woman will have sex with them.


Really?

Maybe I was slow on the uptake there. I get it now.


But it's like a dedicated fisherman;

if you don't go fishing, you'll never catch a fish.

If you go fishing a lot (as we all should 😎😎) one doesn't catch fish every time, but it's still enjoyable, and one gets in more practice, learns more about fishing. 

Sometimes when fishing, the stars align, and one can't stop catching fish. 

But every trip is good.

Being involuntary celibate seems contradictory. If involuntarily felt kept from fishing, the attitude is never give up preparing then going, against all odds even. 

If you truly want to catch fish. If you want to but give up, don't complain if you choose to stop working at it. That's your choice. 

I'm sure I'm over simplifying things, and it's only an analogy. 

😘😘 I'm by no means comparing the fairer sex to fish.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

@Ragnar Ragnasson ,
I also gave up fishing. Different reason.
But speaking of comparing people to fish, What is the difference between a catfish and a lawyer?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

You got me there.

What? 😎


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

One is an ugly, cold blooded, scum sucking, bottom feeder, and the other is a fish.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

BruceBanner said:


> It doesn't matter how many points white males get. They obviously have an easier time than asian males when it comes to dating. Also I'm curious what's your race?


I am black. I can't really say how it is for asian men. But I do know there is a growing movement of asian men that feel they are unfairly seen as not masculine enough.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

ReformedHubby said:


> I am black. I can't really say how it is for asian men. But I do know there is a growing movement of asian men that feel they are unfairly seen as not masculine enough.


Right up to the point they go all Bruce Lee on your ass.


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## Mr The Other (Feb 1, 2014)

tech-novelist said:


> But not young women. Discuss.
> 
> https://i0.wp.com/fabiusmaximus.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Celibacy-rates-of-young-men-by-year-in-America-WaPo.jpg?ssl=1


I was a middle aged man in CA a few years ago. I can share my experience.

It seems to me that young people are relatively poorer compared to older generations than they were a couple of generations ago. The young men are also relatively poorer compared to women their age compared to a few years ago.

On top of that, over tens of thousands of years, women have had a great deal more at risk than men when pairing up. If there are cultural and biological reasons why women would be less generous in assessing men as partners rather than vice versa that makes sense. Most women do seem to see the average man as below average.

Combine the two paragraphs above into one context, and you might have the expectations of men set higher than reality twice over. 

But, women still want sex and relationships. But, if there are a relatively small number of worthwhile partners who are single, physically attractive, reasonably charming and interesting and financially successful, then women will see they have to share. For the more atractive women, partners are even rarer and they will be more resigned to sharing. This was great news for me, and where I was in my life now.

This effect seemed stronger to me in CA than I was used to in Europe.


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