# Still fighting the fight



## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Ok I need some further advice on my situation and I just need to vent a little. I won't rehash what happened with my wife's affair but in a nutshell, she had a PA with a coworker for about 10 months. I went through the steps to end the affair between them and as far as I can tell it has in fact ended. It's been exactly a month today since they were together although they do see each other in passing probably a few times a week.

She has done the things I have asked of her so far. I have all access to any of her electronic communications and bank accounts. She has handed in her resignation and will be leaving the job at the end of the year. She is leaving the job right after work and is coming straight home. (They were meeting after work). She has seen him in the halls but according to her has not talked to him. For now, I am considering that as BS (that she hasn't spoken to him) but in this case it may actually be true. I've just learned not to trust.

All last week I tried to talk to her about how I was feeling. I told her that I felt like I was the only one really trying to work on things. I was really just looking for some kind of indication that she was even the least bit sorry and was wanting to see some signs that she was interested in fixing the relationship. All I got was "I never meant to hurt you." 

I told her that what I needed from her was some affection and for her to spend some time with me in the evenings after the kids are in bed. Friday night, after we put the kids to bed, I told her that I wanted her to sit on the couch with me and just hang out for a little bit. (Our MC had said in a prior session that we needed to spend some time together each day if we wanted to rebuild an emotional connection with each other.) She says she is tired. I got mad about it and told her that she didn't seem to have any problem staying awake to go meet her AP (they would meet on weekend nights as well after the kids went to bed). Her response was "Yea I did enjoy spending time with him". She came to the couch and immediately proceeded to close her eyes and go to sleep. And it's not like we were up really late. This is like 8:30 - 9:00 PM. 

So I got mad about it but didn't say anything. I just went to the closet, put on a good shirt, and left for the evening. I went to a strip club and sat there depressed and had a couple of beers. I came home about 11PM and she was in the bed. She never even asked me the next day where I had gone.

Here is how it went in MC the next day:

She announced at the beginning of the session after some prodding from the MC that she was "done." The MC did some talking to her and she finally came around to saying that she would be willing to stick it out a little longer if she thought she could have the kind of connection we had earlier in our relationship. So the session continued.

I didn't really get a chance to say much as most of the dialog was between her and the MC. But this is the exchange that really bothered me. It started by her saying that she didn't feel like she should have to do all of these things and that she just wanted to move past it because it was over.:

MC: Do you think you can make an effort to show him some compassion to help him heal?

WW: Not really

MC: Why?

WW: Because I don't feel bad about it. 

MC: Why do you think you don't feel bad about it?

WW: Because I don't have those feelings for him. I don't love him.

MC: So you can only show compassion for someone you love? 

WW: No

MC: Then you must be mad at him.

WW: <silence>

Then they went on to something else.

So the problem I have now is that she doesn't feel bad about it. Apparently because she is angry at me about some mystery thing. I tried the next day asking her what she was mad about but didn't get very far. I think immediately, she is mad at me for "making her quit her job" and snooping on her. Although I have never moved from my position that it wasn't me that caused her to have to leave her job.

I also believe that she has spent the last 10 months building up all of the bad things about me in part to justify her affair to herself. I understand that this is what people in affairs do. they rewrite the marritial history and build their spouses up to be worse than they really are.

So my strategy this week has been to not talk about it at all. We have conversations about other things and she has been spending 30 minutes or so with me on the couch each evening. Last night we even watched a tv show together. This is a big improvement over Monday when she was watching the clock to see if her 30 minutes were up.

What I haven't gotten from her is any affection or reassurance at all. Our bed is a cold place. I still don't have any remorse from her and assume she still doesn't care as far as I know. I get a peck on the lips as she leaves in the morning and that's it. It is tearing me up inside but I am determined to make it whole week without bringing it up. She is being nice and cordial with me and I am playing the part.

What's bothering me now is the friends she has. These are all people she knows from work. They are all single and they are who she talks to. One is even 11 years younger. Most of these friends knew about the affair as it was going on. I don't feel like they even have the frame of reference to understand what a real affair in real life does to people.

I found on her phone (since I have access) that she is planning to go out with a couple of them on Saturday night "if my husband will let me go" Their response is "Yea right, like that's gonna happen." I seem to be protrayed as the controlling husband that won't let his wife hang out with her friends.

She hasn't said anything to me about it yet and I assume she thinks I don't know about her plans. I am sure she will bring it up soon to see if I am ok with her going. Frankly, I think it is extremly insensitive for her to even consider it and I don't even think it is very nice that she even has these friends in the first place.

Just for the record, I have NEVER been a controlling person. I have NEVER before this affair ever said to my wife that she couldn't go somewhere or questioned who she could be friends with.

I need to find a way to say no to thins without playing into the "controlling husband" narative that seems to have developed.


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## Numb-badger (May 18, 2011)

First off don't let her get under your skin - the fog is still strong with her and she's trying to involve you in part of the blame.
You NEED to 180 - for yourself, look it up and take action. Trust me, she's still got her head in strange places and no matter what you say or do at this time you will not be able to grant her the clarity to see as you are able.
180
180
180
Take care of yourself. When the fog starts to lift, and only then, will you both be able to make progress.

Best wishes

N-B


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## Almostrecovered (Jul 14, 2011)

it's typical blameshifting and rewriting history


I'm sorry to say it doesn't look good for your marriage at all

you need 100% true remorse, she needs to take the blame for it and do what you need to heal and she isn't even trying beyond saying she is transparent and going to MC 

I'll also state that judging by her actions it is very likely the affair is ongoing or they have plans to start up again when the heat is off.

Bottom line is you can't save a marriage when both partners aren't willing to to do it and considering the fact she needs to do the heavy lifting you really have little to no shot.


Is the OM married and have you exposed?
Have you started to separate finances?


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

The "controlling spouse syndrome" is a pretty common reaction. It's a way to keep her emotional wall up and justify her actions. My advice? Let her go out with her friends this weekend like it's no big deal. You may not like it but don't show her that. She is only 30 days into the NC. She's going to be pissed at you for ending the affair, snooping and setting boundaries. Unfair as that may seem, that's just the way it is and accepting that will help you deal with the resentment. Resentment will fester and lead to blow ups and that won't to anyone any good. Carry yourself with confidence and a cool demeanor. Stand by your boundaries and move forward with whatever changes you are making for the good of the marriage. You've got a good understanding of where she is and of her behaviors. Let that work for you. She won't turn on a dime, it may be weeks or months before she shows tangible signs of returning to the marriage, accept that. Recovery after an affair is probably the most challenging things for a marriage to recover and it takes time. Do it methodically and confidently and more than likely she'll start to bring that wall down. Good luck.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

To dispel her belief that you are control freak, convey to her in a *calm, quiet and respectful fashion* that you are not her jailer, that she is free to choose whatever she wants to do but that her actions do carry consequences, and then leave her alone to reflect on your words.

In the meantime, you need to stop acting needy and angry towards her. If you are truly serious about giving it your best to save and rebuild your marriage then you are going to have to learn to control your emotions - easier said I know but not impossible. I'm in no way implying that she doesn't have to do the heavy lifting of marital recovery, but that you must develop emotional strength for your well being and because it makes you a much more attractive man. Consider the following statement as an example of confidence and emotional strength.



> "Look wife, I won't be in an open relationship with you, I won't give you X number of days, weeks, months to make your mind, if you really feel like you need to sit on the fence on this decision and can't decide between your affair partner and me well I will make the decision for you, you can be with him because I'm no longer an option. I love you and wish you a good life with them and hope it works out for you because it didn't work out for us. Now the best thing we can do for each other is to make this process as graceful and peaceful as possible for us and our children, I'll contact a lawyer/mediator and get started on the process of our legal separation/divorce."


Now your emotional strength may not be at the level where you can tell her exactly the above words, but the point is for you to start developing your 'emotional muscles' to get to that level for YOUR OWN emotional well being.

Please click on *'No More Mr Nice Guy'*, download a free copy of the ebook, and read, read, read until you can implement the principles that Dr Robert Glover teaches. I promise you that your eyes will be open to the fact that YOU are the fountain of your own happiness, not your wife. Many men who have started living by these principles have either had their marriages become way more satisfying or have moved on to better things.

I'll leave you with a great story from the Men's clubhouse.

*A husband's behavior can have a great impact on his wife's behavior.*



marduk said:


> I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.
> 
> A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.
> 
> ...


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Numb-badger said:


> First off don't let her get under your skin - the fog is still strong with her and she's trying to involve you in part of the blame.
> You NEED to 180 - for yourself, look it up and take action. Trust me, she's still got her head in strange places and no matter what you say or do at this time you will not be able to grant her the clarity to see as you are able.
> 180
> 180
> ...


Thanks I needed that. She really does get under my skin. Actually not even bringing it up is helping me in some ways as well. I'm doing the 180 to the best of my ability right now.



Almostrecovered said:


> it's typical blameshifting and rewriting history
> 
> 
> I'm sorry to say it doesn't look good for your marriage at all
> ...


Yes, I know all of this. And yes our finances have always been seperate anyway. Other than the debts we have together like the house. I really don't think it is still going on but I accept the possibility. I've done all I could do right now to end it. I dropped the bomb on the OM pretty good and she has had no opportunity time-wise to carry on the affair for at least a month.



Amplexor said:


> My advice? Let her go out with her friends this weekend like it's no big deal. You may not like it but don't show her that. She is only 30 days into the NC. She's going to be pissed at you for ending the affair, snooping and setting boundaries. Unfair as that may seem, that's just the way it is and accepting that will help you deal with the resentment. Resentment will fester and lead to blow ups and that won't to anyone any good. Carry yourself with confidence and a cool demeanor. Stand by your boundaries and move forward with whatever changes you are making for the good of the marriage. You've got a good understanding of where she is and of her behaviors. Let that work for you. She won't turn on a dime, it may be weeks or months before she shows tangible signs of returning to the marriage, accept that. Recovery after an affair is probably the most challenging things for a marriage to recover and it takes time. Do it methodically and confidently and more than likely she'll start to bring that wall down. Good luck.


I really want to complain about these friends but I'm leaning towards taking your advice on this one. I really have nothing to lose.

I was thinking just the other day that what she is really mad about is the fact that I messed up her affair. That just seems such a wrong thing to be mad about. I mean really, what did she expect me to do?


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## Numb-badger (May 18, 2011)

Morituri - WOW @ Marduk


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Thanks morituri. I had read that several weeks ago but needed the reminder. I like the part about "if you can do it then so can I" If she goes out Saturday, maybe I'll go out on Sunday. 

I have Athol's book and have read it. I'll check out the Nice guys book too.


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## Numb-badger (May 18, 2011)

'I was thinking just the other day that what she is really mad about is the fact that I messed up her affair. That just seems such a wrong thing to be mad about'

It does, but you need to see it from her POV. She has been exposed - revealed - discovered to be something other than what she wanted everyone else to see.
Her ego fix from the OM is now gone, she now has to look people in the eye who may know what she's done and you are her reminder that the image she projected (and wanted everyone to see) has been removed.
There will be guilt, shame, embarrassment, discomfort, anxiety and uncertainty about all aspects of her life, so her defence systems are trying to justify her actions to minimise the feelings she has, and you're an easy target.
Until you let her know that you're not accepting blame.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Numb-badger said:


> 'I was thinking just the other day that what she is really mad about is the fact that I messed up her affair. That just seems such a wrong thing to be mad about'
> 
> It does, but you need to see it from her POV. She has been exposed - revealed - discovered to be something other than what she wanted everyone else to see.
> Her ego fix from the OM is now gone, she now has to look people in the eye who may know what she's done and you are her reminder that the image she projected (and wanted everyone to see) has been removed.
> ...


Really she has only been revealed to me though. She is not telling people at work the real reason for her leaving and her "friends" already knew about it and apparently were ok with it. They do know why she is leaving but that reason is framed as I am making her do it.

I guess I could go around telling a bunch of people but that would just be me being angry at this point.

And I have stood firm that none of the consequences are my fault.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

I chose the name 'morituri' because of the Roman gladiators acceptance that they could die during any of their life and death battles in the arena. So to each and every one of us must accept and make peace with the undeniable and brutal truth that at any moment in time, our lives may end.

With that in mind I want you to read marduk's firs point, over and over and over again until it becomes etched in your consciousness



> 1. *Let her go*. You can fight, hold her back, be controlling… and you’ll just look petty, insecure, and weak. Be cool, act secure, give her a kiss and say “have fun.” If she’s going to cheat or leave, she’s going to cheat or leave. It’s better if it happens sooner rather than later in my book. A marriage is a choice, a decision that’s made one day at a time. You’re in or out. This was really, really hard. B*ut I've learned that nothing lasts forever, life is change. We can grow together or apart. I can't force her to decide to want to be with me.*


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> Really she has only been revealed to me though. She is not telling people at work the real reason for her leaving and her "friends" already knew about it and apparently were ok with it. They do know why she is leaving but that reason is framed as I am making her do it.
> 
> I guess I could go around telling a bunch of people but that would just be me being angry at this point.
> 
> And I have stood firm that none of the consequences are my fault.


I had to re-read your original thread to get a reference for what was going on. Now that the affair is over, she's STILL in the fog and unremorseful. She has toxic friends who ENABLED her affair and want her to go on a GNO, and she wants to go, except that she knows that you wont let her. 

Dude, it's only been a month since DDay and already she wants to go on a GNO? Are you serious? And the only kind of friends are the ones that are toxic? 

I have to say that the affair is still going on, but what I mean by that is that her heart is still in the affair because she sees the OM at work. Its true when they say that the affair is never really over as long as they can see each other at work. While it may be true that OM is done, she isn't. She longs for what she sees, but cannot have. And with that frustration comes resentment towards you. This is why NC cannot be established between coworkers. Your wife is a teacher and wants to finish out the school year. The OM is looking for employment out of state and will be gone in 8 months now. Look, she may have to quit her teaching job now if the mariage is to be saved because she cannot be NC as long as she can physically see him. 

With your wifes attitude, it is only a matter of time before NC truly is broken and the affair resumes. She is a teacher, and that means there is a ready pool of substitute teachers on call that can replace your wife during the school year. She doesn't have to finish out the school year. 

Because as of right now, you're still in LIMBO. Go back to your original thread and check out the table I posted about the difference between Remorse and Rug Sweeping. Because of her resentment, she's only forced into being transparent. She is not ready for R at this point in time as long as her and OM still work together. Because for her, the affair is still on, its just that in her mind, you're preventing her. Thats why something has to give, either OM leaves the job now, or she does, for you to have any chances of R to succeed. Another reason is that she's still being influenced by these toxic coworker friends of hers. Does she not have any friends her own age? Or is she the old lady of the teaching staff there? If she wont quit, then you may have no choice but to start D proceedings until she's ready to come to the table and be truly remorseful. But this cant happen while she works with the OM and is away from those toxic coworkers.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> I had to re-read your original thread to get a reference for what was going on. Now that the affair is over, she's STILL in the fog and unremorseful. She has toxic friends who ENABLED her affair and want her to go on a GNO, and she wants to go, except that she knows that you wont let her.
> 
> Dude, it's only been a month since DDay and already she wants to go on a GNO? Are you serious? And the only kind of friends are the ones that are toxic?
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
Straight up from da man himself. He says it better than I could!


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

I know it won't be really over for her until she is gone from that job and away from the OM and the "friends" on a daily basis. She has already turned in the resignation and I have verified that it is in fact in place. There is no turning back for her on that one. I've made a conscious decision to allow her to stay until next month. I knew what I was getting myself into and it will be hell for yet another month for me.

And yes, it has only been a month and she wants to go on a night out for drinks with a single man and a single woman who happen to be roomates. I'm sure some of her other "friends" will come as well. Isn't that just outrageous? But I do understand in her mind "it has been a whole month." LOL. Yes, I do understand the psychology of it but that doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt me emotionaly anyway. 

BTW the single man is definately not a threat at least from a physical standpoint. Emotionally, yes. I'm really not in denial, just trust me on that one.

The friend that she has that is much younger does bother me though because she lives a pretty wild single life and has several "f*** buddies". My wife has made the comment (not to me) that if she was single that's what she would do (have f*** buddies). She is still in fantasy land about living a wild single life full of fun which is fueled by this younger friend.

Again, understanding what is going on does not make it much better.


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## Eli-Zor (Nov 14, 2010)

Your wife is still in the affair even if it is internalised, only when NC is 100% will you start recovering. Any contact she has with the OM or those persons who supported her or knew about it continues to enable her thinking of the OM.

After a period of time once she is out of the workplace you will see changes.

Until then hold a hard line, she does not go out with any toxic friends from work not with any persons who enabled her affair in any way.


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> My wife has made the comment (not to me) that if she was single that's what she would do (have f*** buddies). She is still in fantasy land about living a wild single life full of fun which is fueled by this younger friend.


Fantasies often turn disappointing once they become reality. Whether it is an affair that becomes an open and full time relationship or having a 'fvck buddies' lifestyle. I doubt that your wife can compartmentalize sex from love seeing how she fell in love with her married OM. So while she may fantasize about having a series of 'fvck buddies', chances are that it would get old for her after a while.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

I know marriage is about love and patience. I don't understand the situations that are within our control where we intentionally allow that marriage to be placed on hold so the other person can "FIND" themselves and place "us" on hold.

In my opinion (I've never been a divorce fan - but I've seen where boundaries are the only way a marriage can be successful and happy), this marriage needs to be put onto the fast track for dissolution as it seems to also be the only track possible for reconciliation. 

did you really take vows between god and each other (or at least the Justice of the Peace, etc) to be emotionally and mentally abused by a cheating and uncooperative spouse?

Your best bet is to take the advice above and prepare yourself for a life of taking care of you and yours. Let her off of the hook and find yourself someone who could potentially be a better mate to spend the rest of your life with.

Its sad, but true.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Amplexor said:


> The "controlling spouse syndrome" is a pretty common reaction. It's a way to keep her emotional wall up and justify her actions. My advice? Let her go out with her friends this weekend like it's no big deal. You may not like it but don't show her that. She is only 30 days into the NC. She's going to be pissed at you for ending the affair, snooping and setting boundaries. Unfair as that may seem, that's just the way it is and accepting that will help you deal with the resentment. Resentment will fester and lead to blow ups and that won't to anyone any good. Carry yourself with confidence and a cool demeanor. Stand by your boundaries and move forward with whatever changes you are making for the good of the marriage. You've got a good understanding of where she is and of her behaviors. Let that work for you. She won't turn on a dime, it may be weeks or months before she shows tangible signs of returning to the marriage, accept that. Recovery after an affair is probably the most challenging things for a marriage to recover and it takes time. Do it methodically and confidently and more than likely she'll start to bring that wall down. Good luck.


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

It will take awhile. But be on the alert. I would say she is more afraid than truly mad.


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

morituri said:


> In the meantime, you need to stop acting needy and angry towards her. If you are truly serious about giving it your best to save and rebuild your marriage then you are going to have to learn to control your emotions - easier said I know but not impossible. I'm in no way implying that she doesn't have to do the heavy lifting of marital recovery, but that you must develop emotional strength for your well being and because it makes you a much more attractive man. Consider the following statement as an example of confidence


Well put indeed, confidence has been a part of my signature since I joined TAM years ago and it had a tremendous impact on the recovery of my marriage. Anger (resentment) on the your part TGF is counter productive to recovering the marriage. I find the fact that after your wife didn't respond as you wanted her to, you elected to leave and go to a strip club. IMHO that was done out of spite or a "I'll show her". You need to be better than that and control your own emotions before you can hope to have an impact on hers. You need to confidently take the high road and show through you actions that you working to better the marriage and yourself. She is not ready to carry the rock on recovery at this point but showing her you are ready to do it will have an impact. Just make sure your boundaries are respected and that you don't lose yourself in the recovery efforts. Strap in and get ready for a long haul, this is going to take time as as stated above, until she is completely out of contact with him at her current job, she's still tied to the affair.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Dadof3 said:


> I know marriage is about love and patience. I don't understand the situations that are within our control where we intentionally allow that marriage to be placed on hold so the other person can "FIND" themselves and place "us" on hold.
> 
> In my opinion (I've never been a divorce fan - but I've seen where boundaries are the only way a marriage can be successful and happy), this marriage needs to be put onto the fast track for dissolution as it seems to also be the only track possible for reconciliation.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Bite the bullet and divorce her.No remorse= no chance of reconciliation.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

She doesn't know that I know that these friends knew. (That's a tongue twister) It's something I found out this week but I didn't say anything because I had vowed not to bring the affair up this week.

It's possible that she will not even ask to go out on Saturday. I just know it has been discussed with friends.

So far I have one vote for "let her go out and wish her well". If that happens, I intend to have a night out as well.

And I have one vote for "hold a hard line, she does not go out with any toxic friends from work not with any persons who enabled her affair in any way."

Frankly, the second choice sounds like controlling to me, not a boundary.

The first option will be hard because I will want to say SOMETHING about it. The second will have me playing into her fantasy narrative and will leave me looking needy.

I have a feeling this will be anit-climatic when she never asks in the first place.

And yea I probably shoudn't have gone to the strip club. It was a reaction in spite but I didn't show it with emotion or talk. I just went and never brought it up later.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I don't believe in GNOs in the first place. ALL the women I know that have gone out on regular GNOs are divorced except one.

It isn't controlling to have boundaries. She can do anything she wants but you have the option to walk as does she. Why aren't you to be invited. Thats the big question you need to ask her? I would be telling her what she is doing is the opposite of what she should be doing.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

chapparal said:


> I don't believe in GNOs in the first place. ALL the women I know that have gone out on regular GNOs are divorced except one.
> 
> It isn't controlling to have boundaries. She can do anything she wants but you have the option to walk as does she. Why aren't you to be invited. Thats the big question you need to ask her? I would be telling her what she is doing is the opposite of what she should be doing.


Interesting position. I certainly go out with the guys from time to time, however my friends are people she knows and they are all married. It's not like we do it often either, maybe once every few months.

I don't really have any objections to a GNO under normal conditions. I don't think they should be every weekend, but once in a while is ok IMO if you can trust your spouse. (which I can't for a long while)

I wouldn't be invited because someone has to watch the kids. Of course under the circumstances, I would feel weird around these people anyway and I don't have anything in common with them since I don't work with them.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

I just looked back at your previous thread. You found out about the OM after a GNO. Have you read the threads at Mens Clubhouse?

If she has to go on a GNO I would tell her I would have her stuff waiting on her in the front lawn when she gets home if she bothers to come home. 

My wife went on one GNO (with male and female coworkers) that I was specifically not allowed to attend. When she got home at about 10:00 PM with a nice buzz, I told her the next time that happened, the locks would be changed and her clothes would be on the front porch in a garbage bag. The thing is she had no doubt I would do it. She even smiled like she loved hearing it.

How anyone with half a brain thinks GNO/BNO is not going to be a disaster simply baffles me.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

A month out from dday is no time for a WW to go out for a night with toxic friends. If she goes, go with her.

Btw, yes she is angry at you: you took away her lover.

She is very angry at you for doing that, at each time she sees him, it is reinforced.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Well I guess I know where your boundaries are chapparal.  So you don't let your wife hang out with friends unless you are there too? Guess that is working better than my plan so I can't really argue.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> A month out from dday is no time for a WW to go out for a night with toxic friends. If she goes, go with her.
> 
> Btw, yes she is angry at you: you took away her lover.
> 
> ...


Going with her isn't really an option. Someone has to be home. 

I know it's crazy for her to even think it's ok to go but telling her that her friends are toxic isn't getting me anywhere right now. In her mind, I've already taken away her lover and her job, and now I'm starting in on her "friends" too.

I know I'm RIGHT, but I'm also trying to win the war, not a battle or two.

I can keep her from going easily by just telling her I don't want her to go. Just trying to figure out if that is a good move or not.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Hire a babysitter for that night.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

TGF: 

Paint her a conceptual picture and how it would look to you, if all thats happened, and then she continues with the behavior that led to the present point. 

Ask her how it would help with reconciliation and then give her a choice to go out (which you will have stuff packed for her return) or she can stay home and figure out how she's going to repair the marriage. Tell her you will be fine with either choice, though one will hurt you and children more than the other.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> Hire a babysitter for that night.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I would if I wanted to go. I'm not the one that wants to hang out with these people. I'd really rather not be around them at all and I'm certainly not paying for the privilege.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

Then its a matter of a boundary on the marriage being broken (remember she doesn't get trust anymore - it will always be carefully conditioned to her on a case by case basis), as opposed to you "controlling" her.

As some wise person on this board said: "<Spouse's name>, I will not be in a one-sided open marriage. etc, etc, etc."

Its crappy, but might help her see that where you are coming from is a position of "we" and not "I".


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

You think I should go ahead and tell her that her friends were enablers and I know that they knew about the affair while it was going on? I could do that before she gets around to mentioning the night out but I have been purposefully not talking about those things this week.

And then of course I would be exposing a lie she told me about nobody knowing about it. It's one of the few things I have been holding back that I know.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> You think I should go ahead and tell her that her friends were enablers and I know that they knew about the affair while it was going on? I could do that before she gets around to mentioning the night out but I have been purposefully not talking about those things this week.
> 
> And then of course I would be exposing a lie she told me about nobody knowing about it. It's one of the few things I have been holding back that I know.


How did you get this info? It might be more important to protect your sources. 

She should know you know she's lied to you, however.

Ask her how she would feel if the shoe is on the other foot.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

chapparal said:


> How did you get this info? It might be more important to protect your sources.
> 
> She should know you know she's lied to you, however.
> 
> Ask her how she would feel if the shoe is on the other foot.


Two of them I confirmed through known sources (her old texts from this summer that I mined from her phone backups). I just went back and looked at all of the texts from anyone as opposed to just the ones between her and a particular friend.

Another I found out recently from an as-yet undiscovered method.

The problem is that she has yet to admit to much that I haven't either known already or bluffed that I knew already. So the shock value of her knowing she has lied to me hasn't done much. Now I just use the info as a gauge of whether she is being truthful to me in the present or not. I don't ask questions that I don't already know the answer to anymore.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

I guess the real question I was asking is if you thought I should bring it up (the friends knowing) preemptively and break my week of no talking about the affair?

I'm guessing this will turn into a fight about how she can't have any friends whah whah.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

this really doesnt sound good.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Why are you not talking about the affair? I can understand not harping, but the other extreme just creates an elephant.

If she asks or tells you she s going, I would call her on it, saying that her hanging with these people who knew and condoned her cheating, shows her lack of real commitment to rebuilding the marriage. It's not about friends, it is about returning to same envrironment that enabled her cheating. Btw, don't nice it up by calling it can affair, she cheated.

Do not soft foot around her. Be a strong man who doesn't negotiate about cheating, he sets a boundary that isn't negotiable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> Why are you not talking about the affair? I can understand not harping, but the other extreme just creates an elephant.
> 
> If she asks or tells you she s going, I would call her on it, saying that her hanging with these people who knew and condoned her cheating, shows her lack of real commitment to rebuilding the marriage. It's not about friends, it is about returning to same envrironment that enabled her cheating. Btw, don't nice it up by calling it can affair, she cheated.
> 
> ...


I like this one the best. The hard part will be saying it all in a cool calm manner. I may need to rehearse this a little.

I'm not talking about it because I harped on it pretty good last week and probably overdid it a little. And the other reason is because I wanted to gauge how she is really feeling about it when I'm not picking fights. I guess it's an exercise in controlling my emotions.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

"Btw, don't nice it up by calling it can affair, she cheated."

Commiting adultery sounds even more forceful.

I would wait unitl she asks to go out. Then I would tell her I still can't trust her. Look what happened on her last GNO. And that you know she has lied to you.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Ok, well I say cheated to her but affair is less to type here. 

I'm thinking of combining Shaggy's 

"call her on it, saying that her hanging with these people who knew and condoned her cheating, shows her lack of real commitment to rebuilding the marriage. It's not about friends, it is about returning to same envrironment that enabled her cheating."

with morituri's

"convey to her in a calm, quiet and respectful fashion that you are not her jailer, that she is free to choose whatever she wants to do but that her actions do carry consequences, and then leave her alone to reflect on your words."

and I may throw in the 

"Look what happened on your last GNO"

Unfortunately, saying "I know you have lied to me" hasn't gotten me anywhere in the past. All I get is "I can't think of anything I haven't told you" and then I expose the proof of whatever it was. It just causes an unnecessary mess. If I'm going to call her on a liem I'd rather just come out with what it is right up front without having to go through that whole exchange.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

I've read this thread, and while it doesn't sound good, I think there is a glimmer of hope here.

I would definitely not preemptively say you know about the GNO. This is what I would do. I would say, "Hey W, what do you say we get a sitter for *same night* and go out for dinner and drinks? We sure could use it, don't you think?"

Here's what that does. Her answer will tell you everything. It paints her into a corner. You asking this question tells her you have no clue about the GNO, and puts everything on her. If she balks, and says well, I was hoping to go out with my friends, then you have the power (and the right) to call her out on choosing them over you. If she takes you up on the date and likes the idea, then you have a positive result. Either way, you've learned something about where she stands.

Outside of this, I side more with Amplexor. Pull a hard 180 and be a very positive person. Go to the gym, fake a lot of happiness and confidence while enforcing your boundaries hard.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

You might change it to " I know you're still lying" if she is still telling you no one knows about her adultery.

Or, ask her why she wants to go out with people who knows she commited adultery.

The biggest point is to play it by ear and show no emotion. 

Also, after some time has passed you may no longer want her. She needs to understand this. Its best to stay for the kids but if she doesn't care that much about her family, you can't do it all by yourself.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> I've read this thread, and while it doesn't sound good, I think there is a glimmer of hope here.
> 
> I would definitely not preemptively say you know about the GNO. This is what I would do. I would say, "Hey W, what do you say we get a sitter for *same night* and go out for dinner and drinks? We sure could use it, don't you think?"
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Second to this, please note, that she has a 10 month physical affair. This is a really long time. It is going to be a real battle for you to win this one. 

Frankly, if my W was physical with someone for that long, I would have said goodbye. I am impressed that you are taking the high road here. I know I couldn't. My wife's affair never turned physical and that was hell enough.

Just know that is a very long PA. Turning off that switch will be very painful for her. She may never "forgive" you for it. You are looking at a long road if you recover. Hang in there.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Great idea gabriel. Thanks! If she starts with the GNO thing then I can lay down the other conversation.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Second to this, please note, that she has a 10 month physical affair. This is a really long time. It is going to be a real battle for you to win this one.
> 
> Frankly, if my W was physical with someone for that long, I would have said goodbye. I am impressed that you are taking the high road here. I know I couldn't. My wife's affair never turned physical and that was hell enough.
> 
> Just know that is a very long PA. Turning off that switch will be very painful for her. She may never "forgive" you for it. You are looking at a long road if you recover. Hang in there.


Yes it's going to be quite a fight. It's one thing for someone to tell you it's going to take a long time but you don't really get it until you are actually in the fight. It can be very tough at times.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Don't wait for her to mention the GNO. Beat her to the punch and ask for the date night for that night, ASAP. Or else it won't work. This will be a big test for her. Let us know how it goes.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Well I messed up and got my dates wrong. I asked for Saturday and the "drinks" night is Sunday. OOPS. I just went back and checked the messages to see if there was any more talk about it and apparently it is a "go out for a few drinks" thing on Sunday and not a full blown GNO since they have to be at work on Monday.

She is supposed to go see a morning movie with a married friend that I do approve of on Sunday so we will see if she is planning on slipping the drinks thing in after that. I'll be watching.

So, now that plan is ruined. No way I can ask for a date night on Sunday now. Now on to plan B I guess where I get to wait to see if she asks about it and watch for activity on Sunday.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> Well I messed up and got my dates wrong. I asked for Saturday and the "drinks" night is Sunday. OOPS. I just went back and checked the messages to see if there was any more talk about it and apparently it is a "go out for a few drinks" thing on Sunday and not a full blown GNO since they have to be at work on Monday.
> 
> She is supposed to go see a morning movie with a married friend that I do approve of on Sunday so we will see if she is planning on slipping the drinks thing in after that. I'll be watching.
> 
> So, now that plan is ruined. No way I can ask for a date night on Sunday now. Now on to plan B I guess where I get to wait to see if she asks about it and watch for activity on Sunday.


Have a good time Sat. Thats the best offense. Be manly and have good cheer. Have you checked out the threads on this page?

Play the rest by ear.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/18181-man-up-nice-guy-reference.html

Above all be cooool.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Oh, and by the way, make sure you go out with kids (someplace really fun) if she goes out with friends Sun night. This really helped another poster and had ww in a dilemma.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Actually yes you can still ask for time on Sunday night. She is your wife, and not someone you have to beg and plead with to be their #1 priority socially.

Especially considering she is a recent long term cheater. Seriously. she needs to be working as hard as possible for the next year or two to rebuild the marriage.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Well I confronted her about the friends this morning. It started as a conversation about how one of her friends didn't understand why she had to leave her job. This happened to be one of the friends that she hadn't told me that knew so I pressed the issue a little bit which went as expected. She got defensive and said "and you wonder why I don't want to be here". 

So she still thinks that I am the one doing all of this to her. I'm the one making her quit and I'm the one that is taking away her friends. I'm the one that wants her to be dependent on me for everything now that she won't be working.

I told her that I wasn't her jailer and she rolled her eyes at me.

I gave her the line about being in an environment that enabled her cheating. She says that they are her friends and that's not all they talk about. That they didn't enable anything.

I can't wait until she is away from that place.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> Well I confronted her about the friends this morning. It started as a conversation about how one of her friends didn't understand why she had to leave her job. This happened to be one of the friends that she hadn't told me that knew so I pressed the issue a little bit which went as expected. She got defensive and said "and you wonder why I don't want to be here".
> 
> So she still thinks that I am the one doing all of this to her. I'm the one making her quit and I'm the one that is taking away her friends. I'm the one that wants her to be dependent on me for everything now that she won't be working.
> 
> ...


Can you elaborate little? What about date night? Was this an angry shouting match? Did Sun night come up? Did you offer to help her pack?


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Date night was not discussed. Sunday night was not discussed. I didn't tell her I knew about that. Maybe i should have mentioned it.

It started out as me just feeling her out as to what she was discussing with her friends at work. I said something like "How has it been going this week?" "Have you told anyone else that you are leaving?" etc. She has only been telling select people that she is even leaving because it will cause a lot of people coming up to her and telling her they are sad that she is leaving. She doesn't want to deal with all of that yet because she is depressed about leaving her job and she thinks this will just make her have to hear about it everyday from someone new.

She told me who she was talking to about it yesterday and I said something like "so then that person knew about you and the OM then?" Yes. So I said something like "then you lied to me about them not knowing about it?" Yes. then she changed it to say that she just forgot that she had told them and she didn't remember telling them this summer. And so I came out with "do you want me to show you the texts you sent back and forth about it"

Then she god mad and started to withdraw from the conversation. That's when she made the remark about "and you wonder why I don't want to be here"

Then I went into the whole thing about how her hanging out with these people was showing a lack of commitment to rebuilding the marriage because it was that group of friends and that environment where it was accepted and condoned that she was cheating on her husband that enabled her to live the lifestyle that she was living.

i asked her how she would feel if the shoe was on the other foot. All she will say is "I understand" but then I get mad inside because I know her actions aren't backing up her "understanding." But I kept my cool and simply explained that these were not things that I was doing to her. these were things that she had done to herself and us.

When I say that she turns and walks away as she is very passive agressive. She is not one to yell and argue back.

That may not be exact but it went something like that.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

The next month or whatever until she quits is going to be tough. It's a big thing for her to quit a job she loves and not be seeing the friends she likes to hang out with. Given that, it's pretty hard for you to change your mind and back out of all of this, so you are stuck.

But after reading this last page, your W needs a hard 180 from you. If I were in your shoes and miraculously wanted to stay married after a 10 MONTH PA (wow), I would go pretty cold. Make her chase me for awhile. Get attractive - go to the gym a lot - make social plans for yourself. Show her you can easily live without her and her selfish experiments. Become aloof. Show inner confidence that is there with or without her around. Once her ridiculously stupid fantasy comes crashing down she will realize how big a mistake this has all been for her. She's CLEARLY not there yet. Not even close.

What's up with these ladies who have a couple of kids and then feel so trapped and entitled to their feelings of wanting to live a free, single life? It's so f*cking irresponsible. People like this shouldn't have had the kids in the first place. Lemme guess, she was the one who pushed to have the babies in the first place, right?


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Gabriel said:


> Lemme guess, she was the one who pushed to have the babies in the first place, right?


Yep I still remember the conversation with the first one. She said "I want a baby so bad I can't stand it" and then went on to say something like if I didn't want children with her then we might as well get divorced. We had been married 6 years at that point so I felt it was time.

Ironic no?

The second child was not planned at all and the changes that pregnancy brought are what pushed this all over the edge in the first place.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Yep, I knew it. So having just the one kid would have still allowed her to be a single party girl? Umm, no.

Nothing much pi**es me off more than women who demand to have children (and then sometimes demand to not work), and then claim they are bored and need excitement once they get what they want, so then they cheat on their husbands and claim they are unfulfilled.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

The thing is, my wife has never been a party girl. Up until she started her cheating, she didn't have friends that she went out with at all.

She did all of the classic things. Acquired new single friends, changed her taste in music, etc.

I attribute all of this recent change to the fog of the affair and the rationalization she was doing to allow herself to continue it. And she is still in that place unfortunately.


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## Numb-badger (May 18, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> I attribute all of this recent change to the fog of the affair and the rationalization she was doing to allow herself to continue it. And she is still in that place unfortunately.


180 her, it might blow some of that fog aside and make her realise what's happening


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Numb-badger said:


> 180 her, it might blow some of that fog aside and make her realise what's happening


And that's why I stopped trying to talk about it this week. My breaking point was last Saturday when she announced to the MC that she didn't feel bad about it.

So other than this morning I have been a pretty cheerful but indifferent person this week. I just don't want her to interpret that as me getting over it.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

TGF: Its too bad that you aren't emotionally to the point of being able to reply to the wife regarding her comment about not being remorseful:

"Guess I don't have to feel bad divorcing you, taking the kids, and asking for child support and alimony". She's treating you like this because she knows you won't do anything about it.

You aren't making her feel very secure being a door mat. There need to be consequences for this behavior. 

This is where the 180 can make a difference - not to manipulate her, but to get yourself to the point that you can take her or leave her confidently and move on to a renewed marriage or a new, healthy relationship with another woman.


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## Numb-badger (May 18, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> I just don't want her to interpret that as me getting over it.


That doesn't happen as long as you're doing the 180 for yourself.
I have done more for myself, my kids and my marriage by being happy to walk away. My WW broke NC in july and I quietly asked her to leave the house and told her the divorce papers would be delivered to her parents for her to sign.
She kept asking if I really wanted her to go (trying to gain control), to which I gently replied, 'Yes. And I don't care where you go, whether it's the OMs house, your parents or a park bench. But you're not conducting yourself like that and staying under the same roof as me.'
I found out a few hours later that she'd been admitted to a psychiatric hospital. She was a few days later released into my care. 
She is under no illusion now that any further misjudgements will cost her the marriage. She knows that there is no 'Getting over it'
We may get through it, or get past it, (forgive) but we won't get over it (forget)

The ability to walk away is the most powerful tool you can have in developing your self respect and for bringing her into a world of reality.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

I would recommend that you sit down with her and calmly - like a school teacher put down your boundaries for a continued relationship:

1 - No contact which means she should probably quit now - this includes enablers.
2 - Full transparency - all details, including who enablers are
3 - She does heavy lifting to repair the relationship - physically, mentally, emotionally, sexually. 
4 - Remorse - its gonna be a few years before your emotions are stabilized enough. she gets to comfort you through these.

Ask her rhetorically the following questions:
1 - What environment do students go to be educated?
2 - where do people of faith go to become enlightened?
3 - how do adulterers go about becoming one?

tell her the answer to #3 are all about the things she needs to avoid now to continue in marriage with you.

Tell her she also doesn't get to think about wanting to cooperate. You didn't get married to be on a backburner to another man. You aren't plan B, or any plan but A. If she has a problem with deciding, she can do so on her own dime and time, separated while D papers are processed. Make sure she feels that you respect yourself more than you fear losing her.


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## Dadof3 (Mar 14, 2011)

Numb-badger said:


> That doesn't happen as long as you're doing the 180 for yourself.
> I have done more for myself, my kids and my marriage by being happy to walk away. My WW broke NC in july and I quietly asked her to leave the house and told her the divorce papers would be delivered to her parents for her to sign.
> She kept asking if I really wanted her to go (trying to gain control), to which I gently replied, 'Yes. And I don't care where you go, whether it's the OMs house, your parents or a park bench. But you're not conducting yourself like that and staying under the same roof as me.'
> I found out a few hours later that she'd been admitted to a psychiatric hospital. She was a few days later released into my care.
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:
Simple yet powerful message. Wow!


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## morituri (Apr 1, 2011)

> *The ability to walk away is the most powerful tool you can have in developing your self respect and for bringing her into a world of reality.*


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Women are repulsed by weak and fearful men willing to allow to become their doormats. And they are powerfully attracted to men who have courage, confidence and self-respect to leave them if they deem them unworthy.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

chapparal said:


> Can you elaborate little? What about date night? Was this an angry shouting match? Did Sun night come up? Did you offer to help her pack?


Forget the let her pack remark. I was reading "Love Busters" while I was waiting on my wife at the doctors office today and realized that smart @ss remarks between you and your wife are the last thing you two need to be doing. I apologize for a rude comment.

I was also wondering if "Love Busters" and "His Needs Her Needs" has been recommended to you two. These books have sold in the millions and are designed to bring husband and wife back together. I don't think anyone can only depend on marriage counseling alone because their success rate isn't as good as one would wish. As a matter of fact, marriage counselors are supposed to have one of the highest divorce rates. Ouch.

The biggest reason for the two books is to fix things in the marriage. Most marriages have problems, but in cheating marriages almost all have major problems that many times go unrecognized by one or both spouses. Spouses on these threads are constantly blown away hearing that the cheating spouse has issues that they did not know about. The thing is communication breaks down and these books give couples tools to work with, even in cases where love has turned to hate.

Grab"Love Busters" and read the intro and first chapter. I am sure you will be hooked. Good Luck. You're a good man but your family needs a lot of help. Anger and recrimmination will get you nowhere fast. Understanding, boundaries, and real love are called for now.

Chap


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

We have the book. We got it years ago when we were having problems with our sex life. I got frustrated back then even because she wasn't willing to work through the program. Nothing changed in our sex life.

I tried bringing it back out a few weeks after d-day but she seems to see this stuff as me trying to make her do something. That's part of the frustration I've had, I feel like I'm the only one interested in fixing things most of the time.

For example, i suggested we take the love languages assessment last week. She took it, said "I already knew that" and didn't do anything at all with the info. I guarantee it will never come up again. She has probably already forgotten all about it. 

This was discussed in MC last week and it basically came out that she resents doing things like that if it's not her idea. My problem is that she never seems to have any ideas. She is very much a bury your head in the sand kind of person and I tend to be very action oriented. This always leads me to become angry. I try to hold it in but I just can't stand sitting around waiting for her to do SOMETHING which never seems to happen.

And that's what happened this week, I tried waiting for her to bring it up and it never happened so I got frustrated and tired of waiting.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

she is not ready to work on the marriage therefore it s 180 time:



Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore. 
No frequent phone calls. 
Don't point out "good points" in marriage. 
Don't follow her/him around the house. 
Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future. 
Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS. 
Don't ask for reassurances. 
Don't buy or give gifts. 
Don't schedule dates together. 
Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable. 
Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life! 
Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent. 
Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy! 
When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to! 
If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested. 
Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them! 
Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing. 
No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value. 
All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation! 
Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF! 
Don't be overly enthusiastic. 
Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all! 
Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more! 
Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything. 
Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil. 
Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly. 
Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write. 
Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy. 
Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care! 
Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior. 
Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!" 
Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message. 
When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW."


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

It is time for you to stop chasing her and to stop doing the work of saving the marriage, when she not only isn't putting in any effort, but is rejecting you efforts.

Fact: she had no trouble finding the energy to pursue the other man

Fact: she had no trouble gushing to her tocc friend about the affair and planning it

Fact: she put effort into pleasing the other man

Fact: other than stopping cheating and accepting leaving her job, she has made no real effort to work on the marriage

Fact: she has put you in the position of almost pleading and begging her to try

I suggest it is time to tell her that she is out of time for getting away with turning her back on you and the marriage. 

Stop pursuing her and begging her, tell her you are here now, but of she does not put in the energy she spent on destroying the marriage into saving it, then she can leave. You will file dvorce and she will have what she appears to want.

Sure she is in the fog, but her current actions are more like someone very much in the affair, and someone who is choosing the affair over the marriage.

She has successfully put you in the position of competing with the affair, trying to drag her back into the marriage. That will fail. She must want to return, but she isnt. At best she is going back to the bad status quo of the marriage precheating.

If you let her stay this course not only will you just go back to the preaffair state, but she will likely cheat again.

My advice is to refuse to indulge her any longer. Call her on it. You may loose her by doing it, but the path you are on is much more likely going to loose anyway.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

The weird thing is the affair, the way she tells it, was a one way thing if I remember correctly. By the end ,he would not even touch her although she was getting him off. In other words, he was treating her like dirt. 

Sounds like she has some severe mental problems , maybe abuse as a child.

What kind of mother is she? Doesn't seem to care about the family at all.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

So went went to our MC session yesterday.

I let it all out in the session about how I had been silent about it all week and how she had made little effort.

Basically she told the counselor that she didn't know if she wanted to work on it and the MC called her on it. She was told that either she needed to start working on things or we needed to change the discussion from saving the marriage to how to deal with seperation. 

After the session I just followed up with the same thing. I told her that her behavior was a choice. That I couldn't control her behavior but I didn't have to put up with it either and I wasn't waiting around for weeks until she felt like she could be sorry about it. 

I explained the boundaries thing to her and the difference between controlling and simply respecting yourself and your own boundaries and what those looked like to me in our marriage right now.

I've also asked her what she is going to do to make me want to keep her. I'm working on reframing the whole thing.

Ao far, she has changed her tune quite a bit. She is now at least starting to take some action to work on the marriage. I don't think she is trully remorseful yet though. Right now, she is just in a place where she realizes she needs to say sorry and start being extra nice to me. She even made me breakfast this morning and brought me my coffee. 

She has also realized that she needs to not show anger at my snooping or bringing up the cheating. At least she is trying now and has made a decision to work on things but it's only been a day since this reversal so we'll see if it lasts all week.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

chapparal said:


> The weird thing is the affair, the way she tells it, was a one way thing if I remember correctly. By the end ,he would not even touch her although she was getting him off. In other words, he was treating her like dirt.
> 
> Sounds like she has some severe mental problems , maybe abuse as a child.
> 
> What kind of mother is she? Doesn't seem to care about the family at all.


She really is a good mom other than cheating on her husband and risking them losing their dad and home and all of that stuff that people in the fog of an affair don't think about. 

As far as caring about them and loving them and taking care of their needs she is top notch in my book. I'd be surprised to learn of any sexual abuse. She just thought she was in love with this guy and him showing her any kind of affection was stringing that along I think. 

Besides that, I'd say she has some self esteem issues but nothing like what you are thinking as far as I can tell.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> Fact: she had no trouble finding the energy to pursue the other man
> 
> Fact: she had no trouble gushing to her tocc friend about the affair and planning it
> 
> ...


Yes and this is what really gets to me and does the most damage emotionally. I always hated that she would not pursue me sexually. And I don't mean just during the affair. I mean ever since we have been married. And the thought that she would actually pursue this other guy and WANT to be with him sexually is a big blow to me.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

She hasn't had the awakening of the potential of life without you. Get Joseph's letter and read it to her.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Initfortheduration said:


> She hasn't had the awakening of the potential of life without you. Get Joseph's letter and read it to her.


I think she is starting to get it. If she doesn't then she will get to live it.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

I can't help but wonder if you're too easy on her. What I mean is do you let her doing any heavy lifting or are you the helpful type who swoops in and lifts for her?

She pursued him, because he made her. But you've been the one pursuing her, asking her to work on the marriage, to end the affair.

It's made her lazy in regards to you and the marriage - and often if someone doesn't work for something they don't value it.


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## aug (Aug 21, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> *She pursued him, because he made her. * But you've been the one pursuing her, asking her to work on the marriage, to end the affair.


Simple yet profound.

And the fact she pursued him and ignored you speaks loudly about the state of her relationship with you. Hopefully she wakes up now before a point of no return has been reached by you.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Thanks for the advice. I'll use it.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

Used your exact words Shaggy. She didn't alk out and is comitted to doing the work now and doesn't want divorce. I really believe she has finally made a decision about what she wants. We'll see if the actions back it up.

thanks.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> Used your exact words Shaggy. She didn't alk out and is comitted to doing the work now and doesn't want divorce. I really believe she has finally made a decision about what she wants. We'll see if the actions back it up.
> 
> thanks.


We're pulling for you. Remember, actions, not words. Right now, you're hypervigilant. Just keep observing.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

TheGoodFight said:


> Used your exact words Shaggy. She didn't alk out and is comitted to doing the work now and doesn't want divorce. I really believe she has finally made a decision about what she wants. We'll see if the actions back it up.
> 
> thanks.


Great news! Remember to not be the one to automatically do the work if you see her slacking off. It sounds like she needs to feel like she earns the love she gets, instead of just being given it.


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## TheGoodFight (Oct 26, 2011)

So she went to the library and got a book called "Getting the Love You Want" all by herself today and started reading. It wasn't my idea at all. I've just been silent about the whole thing waiting for her to take action. That's good news in my eyes. This is something she has never done.


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## JustaJerk (Dec 2, 2011)

So I guess your going to keep his dirty little secret from his wife, huh. I guess its someone else's problem if he should decide to do it to someone else- _"outta sight; outta mind."_

These people who work there, and enable this type of behavior need to be put on notice that they can't get away with this. You're the one that can bring, at least some repercussions to this behavior. You stated yourself that the ass. principle was _well aware _of what was going on, yet you balk at the chance to nip this in the bud. WHY?


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