# Stuck in the land of "I simply don't believe you"



## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

I'm stuck. I found evidence that suggests my H has been unfaithful. Our whole marriage he's been secretive (passwords on computer and phone). After removing his passwords I found escorts in his contacts and charges to ****** ******* (married dating site). I found numerous email accounts all wiped of data and social media profiles under aliases. He swears he didn't cross the line and only fantasized. I didn't believe him. I left. We've been separated for 5 weeks. For 5 weeks he's been trying to reconcile. He still maintains nothing else happened and that I know all there is to know. He's going to sex addiction counseling and taking responsibility for the hurt he's caused. Unfortunately, I still don't believe him. I just can't believe that with all data cleared I found what I found and that's all there is. I can't believe that he would actively pursue other people in online adult dating sites but never hook up. Regardless, I can't get out of the land of disbelief. So, I can't even think about reconciliation when I simply do not believe him. Anyone been here?


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

Not been there but I can offer an objective opinion. I, like you, find it hard to believe he would spend money on that A-M website. It's a total hookup site. My widower brother in law joined last Sunday and he tells me that within an hour he had four contacts. He said he was astounded that there was very little 'back-and-forth' with 'getting to know you' emails. 

He said he was offered phone numbers and suggestions for lunch, coffee, supper with the first or second email. So, it's doubtful your H was able to resist meeting someone. 

Questions for you:
Any children?

Length of marriage? 

Support system (parents or other family) nearby for you or him?

Is he a good provider? Do you both work? How are you supporting yourself?

Are you willing to give him another chance knowing full well you may be cheated on? In other words, can you truly commit yourself totally - although warily?


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## betrayed2013 (Feb 5, 2013)

Hes full of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

I wouldn't believe him either. I was lied to from start to finish, and even though I now know for a fact that many things did happen, I'm still stuck in the land of "I simply don't believe you" because I don't know how far it went or how many times.

The first truth you get is usually the tip of the iceberg. Trickle truth happened to me, it's happened to most others I've seen here, and I'd bet he's hiding more... probably a lot more. At the very least, he has shown he's thought of cheating, he's taken some action towards cheating, and now he claims he stalled at the final step.


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> Not been there but I can offer an objective opinion. I, like you, find it hard to believe he would spend money on that A-M website. It's a total hookup site. My widower brother in law joined last Sunday and he tells me that within an hour he had four contacts. He said he was astounded that there was very little 'back-and-forth' with 'getting to know you' emails.
> 
> He said he was offered phone numbers and suggestions for lunch, coffee, supper with the first or second email. So, it's doubtful your H was able to resist meeting someone.
> 
> ...


Yes. We have children but he is their step father. I've been to the infidelity circus before and that is why I left my first husband. He really liked women. We've been married 8 years. I am staying with family now. He's in our home because he doesn't have family here. He is a great provider. I am currently out of work. I left my career when we relocated to Hawaii on military orders. I am working on my graduate degree now but have not been able to secure employment yet. I'm highly educated with 15 years experience but the economy sucks. As for your last question. The answer is no. That's the problem. I cannot truly commit because I do not believe him. I gambled on my first marriage and reconciled and was betrayed again. I know he's a different person but as I said, I've been to the infidelity circus before. The problem is that I feel really bad for him. I feel like I'm tearing his heart out. He's pleading and trying but it's a stalemate. I don't believe him and I'm stuck feeling like a terrible person.


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## cj9947 (Jul 9, 2011)

Trust me when I say, "Trust your gut." Do NOT budge until he tells the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Sometimes, like with my WW, it takes divorce papers to get the truth.


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## walkonmars (Aug 21, 2012)

whataboutthis? said:


> ...As for your last question. The answer is no. That's the problem. I cannot truly commit because I do not believe him. I gambled on my first marriage and reconciled and was betrayed again. I know he's a different person but as I said, I've been to the infidelity circus before. The problem is that I feel really bad for him. I feel like I'm tearing his heart out. He's pleading and trying but it's a stalemate. I don't believe him and I'm stuck feeling like a terrible person.


Clearly he is not the same person as your first H. However, there is an eerie similarity to the behavior of most cheaters. In the case of serial cheaters I believe the behavior is quite predictable. Part of that behavior is to appear to be sincere in asking forgiveness and a second chance. 

The only redeeming thing about your H is that he is apparently seeking to become a better person. Thing is, he may well fail at it or it may be a ruse. It's a gamble. And if you take the gamble you really need to be committed to having a stronger marriage. It would likely involve some degree of trust but a lot of "trust but verify" actions on your part. Tough row to hoe.


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

walkonmars said:


> Clearly he is not the same person as your first H. However, there is an eerie similarity to the behavior of most cheaters. In the case of serial cheaters I believe the behavior is quite predictable. Part of that behavior is to appear to be sincere in asking forgiveness and a second chance.
> 
> The only redeeming thing about your H is that he is apparently seeking to become a better person. Thing is, he may well fail at it or it may be a ruse. It's a gamble. And if you take the gamble you really need to be committed to having a stronger marriage. It would likely involve some degree of trust but a lot of "trust but verify" actions on your part. Tough row to hoe.


Yes it is a tough row to hoe. I know I'm not there yet. Not willing to step on land mine and my gut tells me there buried everywhere. Thanks for your input.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

There are many threads here that are similar to yours. Here's one of the recent ones:

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/65752-my-husband-hiring-escorts-need-opinions.html

If you have any desire to reconcile, you could tell him that you require a polygraph. These have high error rates, so it's possible to get a false positive or negative, but they are very good at 'encouraging' a WS toward a more truthful position. (There was a thread here a few months ago where the WH confessed in the road as he and his W were headed into the polygrapher's office.)

I agree with the others, though. He's been cheating.


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## Will_Kane (Feb 26, 2012)

whataboutthis? said:


> I'm stuck. I found evidence that suggests my H has been unfaithful. Our whole marriage he's been secretive (passwords on computer and phone). After removing his passwords I found escorts in his contacts and charges to ****** ******* (married dating site). I found numerous email accounts all wiped of data and social media profiles under aliases. He swears he didn't cross the line and only fantasized. I didn't believe him. I left. We've been separated for 5 weeks. For 5 weeks he's been trying to reconcile. He still maintains nothing else happened and that I know all there is to know. He's going to sex addiction counseling and taking responsibility for the hurt he's caused. Unfortunately, I still don't believe him. I just can't believe that with all data cleared I found what I found and that's all there is. I can't believe that he would actively pursue other people in online adult dating sites but never hook up. Regardless, I can't get out of the land of disbelief. So, I can't even think about reconciliation when I simply do not believe him. Anyone been here?


About half the people on this forum have been there. Not with escorts necessarily, but definitely in the land of "I simply don't believe you." And it always ends up the same. 

WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW SMOKE AND THERE WAS NO FIRE?

He can either tell you the truth - that he's been hooking up with escorts from day one, or that it was a fantasy. He figures his chances are better with you with the fantasy story. He is telling you a lie a seven-year-old wouldn't believe. It's not like you only found the married cheating web site, ALONE. That ALONE would be hard to believe that he wasn't partaking. But the combination of the deleted history, the escort lookups, the password protecting, the secretiveness, just is too much to write off to "fantasy."

Theoretically possible but not believable. When someone tells you a story that's not believable, don't believe it.

It seems there are a lot of guys who are into escorts and it seems to be one of those things that seems like an addicition, they just can't seem to quit, and very few of them actually ever want to quit. Even when caught, their first thought is how to be sneakier so they won't get caught the next time.


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> There are many threads here that are similar to yours. Here's one of the recent ones:
> 
> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/65752-my-husband-hiring-escorts-need-opinions.html
> 
> ...


Haha Alte Dame. That's my post. I had to change my user name because my H was hijacking my threads. I guess you can say I'm still suffering.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

whataboutthis? said:


> Haha Alte Dame. That's my post. I had to change my user name because my H was hijacking my threads. I guess you can say I'm still suffering.


Well . I thought you were done.

I remember your H very well. He's very hangdog and convincing. Can't you make him take the poly?


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Will_Kane said:


> About half the people on this forum have been there. Not with escorts necessarily, but definitely in the land of "I simply don't believe you." And it always ends up the same.
> 
> WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW SMOKE AND THERE WAS NO FIRE?
> 
> ...


You nailed it. That's exactly where I am. It's just too far fetched to believe. But the hard part is he's working on my emotions terribly. I feel horrible for not believing him.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

assuming he's lying you will never get the truth from him. Think about it, from his perspective he told you he was fantasizing and you still dumped him. Telling the truth assures you're done, so he has no real incentive to come clean. Either way he's never going to be trustworthy and you're going to spend your life with him imagining what he's up to when he's not with you, and when he is with you you'll wonder what he's thinking. It's no way to live; cut your losses and move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

whataboutthis? said:


> You nailed it. That's exactly where I am. It's just too far fetched to believe. But the hard part is he's working on my emotions terribly. I feel horrible for not believing him.


That's what manipulators do. I've been there; please don't buy it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Well . I thought you were done.
> 
> I remember your H very well. He's very hangdog and convincing. Can't you make him take the poly?


I was done until he started working on my emotions. He's going to sex addiction counseling and is professing his love for me daily. It's wearing on me terribly. Makes me feel horrible. 

He wont take a poly. He says it is in violation of his security clearance. He wont submit to hypnosis either for the same reason.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

Is it in violation of his security clearance? Have you asked the powers that be?

I can imagine that he's very convincing. He started a thread here and I was shaking my head because even I wanted to believe him. I'm not particularly gullible, but his sincere entreaties had me definitely doubting my lying eyes.

How does he propose that you go forward if you were to agree to reconcile? How would he be policed? Wasn't he checking out prostitutes for long business trips away from home?


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## LRgirl (Apr 9, 2013)

Seriously, offer him a poly!!

I can recommend a good one if you UK


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> assuming he's lying you will never get the truth from him. Think about it, from his perspective he told you he was fantasizing and you still dumped him. Telling the truth assures you're done, so he has no real incentive to come clean. Either way he's never going to be trustworthy and you're going to spend your life with him imagining what he's up to when he's not with you, and when he is with you you'll wonder what he's thinking. It's no way to live; cut your losses and move on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You are right. Without my believing him there will always be doubt. I told him I left because I felt he was not being honest with me. I told him that if he was honest and told me everything I could sort it out and see if I can overcome it. But as long as I feel he's not coming clean, there can be no trust. Basically I have to know what I'm dealing with first and then I can decide if I can deal with it. But he let me leave anyway. So it's very confusing. He has incentive to tell the truth because telling the truth may bring me back. But he still maintains his innocence.


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> Is it in violation of his security clearance? Have you asked the powers that be?
> 
> I can imagine that he's very convincing. He started a thread here and I was shaking my head because even I wanted to believe him. I'm not particularly gullible, but his sincere entreaties had me definitely doubting my lying eyes.
> 
> How does he propose that you go forward if you were to agree to reconcile? How would he be policed? Wasn't he checking out prostitutes for long business trips away from home?


Yes I found escort email addresses in his email contacts. There's more but that was the most damning escort evidence. Plus the adult dating site purchases. Yes he's very sincere and convincing. Makes you doubt that the sky is above your head. He told me that I can police his activities and offered to leave his laptop at home while on business trips. But honestly I don't want to have to police my H.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

whataboutthis? said:


> You are right. Without my believing him there will always be doubt. I told him I left because I felt he was not being honest with me. I told him that if he was honest and told me everything I could sort it out and see if I can overcome it. But as long as I feel he's not coming clean, there can be no trust. Basically I have to know what I'm dealing with first and then I can decide if I can deal with it. But he let me leave anyway. So it's very confusing. He has incentive to tell the truth because telling the truth may bring me back. But he still maintains his innocence.




Maybe it's about facing himself? He knows that right now he looks scummy, but if he admits to escorts he'll really look like a pos. also, maybe he's lied so much that he's convinced himself? Some people do this; I have a sister like that. There's also the more sinister possibility that he let you leave because he planned to manipulate your emotions, esp if he knows you're susceptible to that. Effective manipulation requires that you know your target.

_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Maybe it's about facing himself? He knows that right now he looks scummy, but of he admits to escorts he'll really look like a pos. also, maybe he's lied so much that he's convinced himself? Some people do this; I have a sister like that. There's also the more sinister possibility that he let you leave because he planned to manipulate your emotions, esp if he knows you're susceptible to that.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I think this has a lot to do with it. He told me he lied originally because he was ashamed. He prides himself on being looked up to by his family. I think his pride and the shame of this is more important than preserving the marriage. Also, I think this pride aspect has made him go into self-denial to a point that he believes it himself. Then there's that part of me that says, what if he's not lying. But that's my mind telling me that, not my gut. My gut has been consistently telling me that there's so much more to this.

He is manipulating my emotions but I think it's plain selfish motivations. He doesn't want to lose the marriage so he's trying to emotionally work on me to forgive him and move forward.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

whataboutthis? said:


> I think this has a lot to do with it. He told me he lied originally because he was ashamed. He prides himself on being looked up to by his family. I think his pride and the shame of this is more important than preserving the marriage. Also, I think this pride aspect has made him go into self-denial to a point that he believes it himself. Then there's that part of me that says, what if he's not lying. But that's my mind telling me that, not my gut. My gut has been consistently telling me that there's so much more to this.



Sorry, I added more to the other comment after you responded. Another thought is that admitting anything will make it harder for him to continue once he gets you back. He'll convince you you're crazy and will hold it over your head any time you voice suspicions.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

lifeistooshort said:


> Sorry, I added more to the other comment after you responded. Another thought is that admitting anything will make it harder for him to continue once he gets you back. He'll convince you you're crazy and will hold it over your head any time you voice suspicions.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It's hard for me to believe that he has calculated intentions. I think he screwed up royally and will do anything to wipe the slate clean. The question is how bad did he screw up and what's behind it. He's a racing guy. And he admitted to me that he loves the rush of anticipation of being with a new girl. So I fear that although he may not want to do this again, he's gets a high off of it. That's why I need to know what I am dealing with and to what degree. And that's why I don't believe he didn't cross the line. I fear he may actually be a serial cheater. And he recently confessed to sleeping with many women prior to our marriage. I think it's an insatiable drug to him...sex with new and different women. But he wants to be the man that he prides himself it and will protect this other life and take it to the grave. That's my biggest fear.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

whataboutthis? said:


> It's hard for me to believe that he has calculated intentions. I think he screwed up royally and will do anything to wipe the slate clean. The question is how bad did he screw up and what's behind it. He's a racing guy. And he admitted to me that he loves the rush of anticipation of being with a new girl. So I fear that although he may not want to do this again, he's gets a high off of it. That's why I need to know what I am dealing with and to what degree. And that's why I don't believe he didn't cross the line. I fear he may actually be a serial cheater. And he recently confessed to sleeping with many women prior to our marriage. I think it's an insatiable drug to him...sex with new and different women. But he wants to be the man that he prides himself it and will protect this other life and take it to the grave. That's my biggest fear.


I understand, but if there's one important thing I learned from my awesome dad, who is no longer with is, it's that it's imperative that you recognize who people are, and they do show you. Who he wants to be is not who he is, or at very least not what he'll be for a long time, and you to ask yourself of you want to spend years of your life waiting for it, with the understanding that it may never come. He's been like this for a long time, and you know who he is right now, so that's what you must base your decision on. Good luck, I know it sucks.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

So here's the million dollar question: Why are you really still agonizing over this?

From everything you say, you can't accept him if he doesn't admit that he's cheated & you can't accept him if he does. If this is true, you should be in the stage of a break-up in which you are separated, licking your wounds, and trying hard to move on.

I think if you want to try to work things out with him, you need to be more practical with your demands. Trying to get blood out of a turnip has not been working.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think your odds are good that he will be faithful. If you so very badly want to try to let him back in, though, you will have to redefine your expectations. You will have to tell him you could forgive him if he tells you the truth, for example, and then go from there. Or you could agree to a blank slate and very close monitoring. You could get a PI to try to uncover his activities. Lots of ways you could go to move this thing along.

If you know that you are finished, however, then do what you can to stop him from working on your emotions. The escort thing is something that is very hard to change. Some men do it, but it's a real challenge as I understand it. Deciding that you need it to be over will probably save you a lot of heart ache in the end.


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

alte Dame said:


> So here's the million dollar question: Why are you really still agonizing over this?
> 
> From everything you say, you can't accept him if he doesn't admit that he's cheated & you can't accept him if he does. If this is true, you should be in the stage of a break-up in which you are separated, licking your wounds, and trying hard to move on.
> 
> ...


I think I'm agonizing over this because he's constantly texting, coming over, calling, begging, pleading, etc... My biggest issue has always been putting the needs of others over my own. I don't like hurting people and I don't want him hurting. It would be easier for me if he would move on but he wont. So, I would love to be able to move forward together but I just cant without getting to the truth. Since that is not an option I can't go forward. But you are right. I need to stand up and move on. Otherwise I'm just driving myself crazy. And that's where I am...driving myself crazy because of his emotional pressure. So in this thread I was wondering if anyone's been here and how they overcame it. Or perhaps I'm just a loon for putting his needs above mine considering what he's done. In any case he's haunting me. I wish I were stronger.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Let's just suppose a police patrol spots someone acting suspiciously, so they pull their car over.

Inside the car they find a scanning receiver tuned to police frequencies, a hidden gun, a crowbar, several sets of skeleton keys and plans for a local bank.

But they let him go as they were satisfied that he was not really going to commit a robbery, he was only fantasising about it.

Yeah... right...:scratchhead:


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## somethingelse (Jun 20, 2012)

He's cheated...there's always one woman or another who would have slept with him in all this time and money he has invested. 

My H did not go to the extent of escorts or paid websites, but he still managed to lie and cheat many many times. Don't believe anything your H says. You will find out soon enough if he is a serial cheater, believe me. By the sounds of it, he's neck deep in it.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I was in a similar position many years ago with a man who was desperate to keep the relationship. At the time I had to have some peace because I was preparing for huge, very important exams. I was not interested in staying with him - had had enough - but felt very bad for him.

I told him I would consider reconciling, but only after 2 months had passed. He had to leave me in peace during that time so I could do the work I needed to do. He took that as a lifeline & I got some time. After the two months we talked and he had made his own changes. We were able to split without all the drama.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

Here is the deal.

Many men I know browse porn and I'm sure that they also occasionally check out escort websites out of simple monkey curiousity if nothing else.

So IF you JUST had a browser history with hits on porn or such websites, I'd say to ask some very hard questions. This is fishy and speaks to some problems in the relationship, but could be something, if not innocent, certainly not impeachable.

HOWEVER...plunking down cash and having CONTACT INFO is another kettle of fish entirely. That speaks to more than curiousity, an active fantasy life, or window shopping. It speaks to intent.

Put your money where your...something is. That is a bit of a betrayal right there by spending family coin on something like that.

I think you are correct...and I'm a pretty forgiving person on this front.


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

Bull on the security violation. I have 39 years in the military. Hypnosis is also bull. What if he wanted to stop smoking and he was sent to a therapist that does hypnosis? He is giving you bull. It would only be a violation if he discussed classified information.


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

JCD said:


> Here is the deal.
> 
> Many men I know browse porn and I'm sure that they also occasionally check out escort websites out of simple monkey curiousity if nothing else.
> 
> ...


Thanks. I appreciate the perspective. You are confirming my intuition from a different point of view.


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> Bull on the security violation. I have 39 years in the military. Hypnosis is also bull. What if he wanted to stop smoking and he was sent to a therapist that does hypnosis? He is giving you bull. It would only be a violation if he discussed classified information.


Well that's interesting. I guess that says a lot right there. Thanks.


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Cabsy said:


> I wouldn't believe him either. I was lied to from start to finish, and even though I now know for a fact that many things did happen, I'm still stuck in the land of "I simply don't believe you" because I don't know how far it went or how many times.
> 
> The first truth you get is usually the tip of the iceberg. Trickle truth happened to me, it's happened to most others I've seen here, and I'd bet he's hiding more... probably a lot more. At the very least, he has shown he's thought of cheating, he's taken some action towards cheating, and now he claims he stalled at the final step.


Casby, it really sux to be stuck in here and I'm sorry you are stuck here too. It's a bad place to be. Can't move forward when you're stuck here. I hope it gets better for you.


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## 4me2 (Jul 20, 2012)

I am in the same maddening situation. My wife had a PA years ago, an EA 10 years ago, then a bit of a meltdown a year ago with us separating 6 months ago. I'm convinced this is affair #3, but she absolutely insists it isn't and instead it's other underlying issues. I bring up let's call it quits, but she says no, starts to cry, etc. so here I am feeling crappy for not believing nothing happened...since she could be telling the truth. I'm stuck as you are since my gut tells me I am right. I feel for you and can certainly relate.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

4me2 said:


> I am in the same maddening situation. My wife had a PA years ago, an EA 10 years ago, then a bit of a meltdown a year ago with us separating 6 months ago. I'm convinced this is affair #3, but she absolutely insists it isn't and instead it's other underlying issues. I bring up let's call it quits, but she says no, starts to cry, etc. so here I am feeling crappy for not believing nothing happened...since she could be telling the truth. I'm stuck as you are since my gut tells me I am right. I feel for you and can certainly relate.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry you are dealing with this too. I'm glad you posted. I wanted to hear from people who are immersed in emotional warfare, finding themselves backing down from what they know they need to do. There's that nagging voice in the back of the mind saying "what if he or she is telling me the truth". Yet we know damn well what our gut is telling us. Others here have pointed out some things that keep me strong in my feelings. The last thing I want is to cave and believe and end up going through this again in five years. So the advice I'm getting here is keeping me trusting my gut. Read over people's advice because they speak from experience. And gather evidence if you can. Hold the evidence until it is undeniable. Best of luck to you. Stay strong.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

whataboutthis? said:


> There's that nagging voice in the back of the mind saying "what if he or she is telling me the truth". Yet we know damn well what our gut is telling us.


That's me.

I have come to the conclusion that I can only work with what I know, what I believe, and what I feel. This doesn't mean I believe my wife, it means I trust my gut and I act based on my own reality.

It is her actions, her decisions, and her behavior which have gotten me to this point. Even though she denies everything, and believably. Yet the things I know for fact contradict her, though they are not rock solid proof.

What if she is telling me the truth? She needs to make a stronger case for herself, I guess.

In the end you have to make your own life decisions based on your own beliefs and your own reality. As my sister the MC tells me, in many cultures they fully accept your gut as acceptable proof. We have gone to this idea of crime lab court room evidence philosophy, yet don't we see time after time here on TAM that the gut was right all along?


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I've posted this a few times in other threads, but the idea that the 'gut' is somehow less credible as a metric to use to make decisions has been disproved by research.

Because we haven't ourselves studied the physical/cognitive workings of intuition or gut feeling, we tend to naturally think of it as amorphous and irrational.

The gut feeling, though, is completely biological & thought to be an adaptation that serves to warn us of danger or give us other important information. Some of this is imprinted via experience, but some of it is reputedly genetically determined.

In other words, there is every reason to consider your gut reaction to be valid.


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## Remains (Jan 24, 2012)

IMO, gut reaction isn't about gut. It is about all those small details that you don't register on an intellectual level, more about the subliminal signals of all that is not right. The body language, the words, the reactions, the words said and unsaid, the small things that all add up to a big picture but you cannot put it into words and cannot intellectualise. It is just there. It just is.

This is why it is so difficult to explain the things that don't add up to friends who are not experienced in infidelity. And why it can sound stupid when trying to say what is wrong. Why they don't understand.

BTW whataboutthis, I can empathise greatly. I have been at the 'I don't believe you' stage for far too long, we have split up over it, I got some TT after the longest split we had that was a year after DD, still don't believe him. He doesn't act like someone who has given his all. But like yours, he gives all the 'I miss you, I love you, this breaks my heart, I want you forever' etc, and he makes a lot of effort to 'show' me his transparency, his changes, and so on. And yet, I just know he has not given his all. He wrote me a letter on our most recent split. I was pretty much done. He says he has straightened out all that he hasn't told me, though there are no real revelations. I am yet to read it. It will be read next weekend. I still don't believe him. I don't believe the letter, and I haven't read it yet. I have had all the gaslighting and the manipulation while the A was taking place. This weekend is his only chance left. If I sniff a hint of bullsh*t then it is over for sure (I have said this before) Blah blah blah ...but I cannot carry on indefinitely, I won't. And I enjoyed my 1st stress free week in an age while on holiday without him last week.

You are on the right path with your split. Don't give an inch. It is the only way forward. The truth is the only way. You will KNOW when you have it! You will absolutely know!


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## Thorburn (Nov 23, 2011)

The gut. I think there is a spiritual or psychic dynamic. Coming from me who happens to be a Christian the Bible talks about a married couple being one flesh.

I have come to the conclusion that there is a spiritual disharmony that comes into play when one spouse cheats. It may not be necessarily felt or even recognized. In 2011 my WS was having another PA. We went to Disney with her youngest brother's family. things were really rocky between my WS and I and I flipped out. I said things in front of my BIL's kids to my WS that I regret saying. It only proved her point to her family that I was a drunk and raging. I did not know she was having another PA but something was not right and I did not recognize the signs. Internally I was messed up. I now know and even this past fall I knew something was not right and I started to confront her saying I think you had sex today. She denied it. Well I was correct and knew it this time. It was just a matter of time before I proved it.

If you read the sites on cheating typically the gut is the first sign and it is normally correct.


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## Bobby5000 (Oct 19, 2011)

I think everyone thinks there is an infidelity problem and it can't be resolved by him trying to fool you. Consider telling him that he needs to come straight and if he doesn't than you have to call it a day because you can't correct a problem until you acknowledge there is a problem.


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Remains said:


> IMO, gut reaction isn't about gut. It is about all those small details that you don't register on an intellectual level, more about the subliminal signals of all that is not right. The body language, the words, the reactions, the words said and unsaid, the small things that all add up to a big picture but you cannot put it into words and cannot intellectualise. It is just there. It just is.
> 
> This is why it is so difficult to explain the things that don't add up to friends who are not experienced in infidelity. And why it can sound stupid when trying to say what is wrong. Why they don't understand.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I can't tell you how helpful it is to hear from someone who's wading through the same ocean (so to speak). I do hope the letter brings you closure but I suspect for those in our situations closure is something we may never have. Best of luck to you and please update me on your situation once you read it.


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Thorburn said:


> The gut. I think there is a spiritual or psychic dynamic. Coming from me who happens to be a Christian the Bible talks about a married couple being one flesh.
> 
> I have come to the conclusion that there is a spiritual disharmony that comes into play when one spouse cheats. It may not be necessarily felt or even recognized. In 2011 my WS was having another PA. We went to Disney with her youngest brother's family. things were really rocky between my WS and I and I flipped out. I said things in front of my BIL's kids to my WS that I regret saying. It only proved her point to her family that I was a drunk and raging. I did not know she was having another PA but something was not right and I did not recognize the signs. Internally I was messed up. I now know and even this past fall I knew something was not right and I started to confront her saying I think you had sex today. She denied it. Well I was correct and knew it this time. It was just a matter of time before I proved it.
> 
> If you read the sites on cheating typically the gut is the first sign and it is normally correct.


Yes there is a disharmony. You wake up with your stomach in knots. Behavior is different. And you can't put your finger on it. Mine's behavior changed radically. When we were in Hawaii (for five years) he had no interest in me and was angry all the time. Then we were separated for two years (because of his work not the marriage). Visits were ok with periods of anger here and there. When he retired and moved back with us he was a different person. Attentive and couldn't get enough sex. When we were intimate it was like some kind of porn scene. Drastic changes. Then I found the online evidence. So when I look at cheater signs I've seen both massive withdraw and insatiable drive. It's difficult to understand all this. But, the looming things is that intuition and the gut that cannot rest.


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I don't know your money situation, but a Computer Forensic examiner could recover much of the deleted data. Sometimes its not even deleted. Its just in the private browsing folder. Its still there, you just don't have a clue how to access it.

Depending on where you live they can charge from 75 an hour to 150 an hour in big cities like NYC or Cali and San Fran.

But if you go this route, you better be ready because you will get a boat load of info. More then you expected or might want to see. It will or can be years worth of data. 

You might want to print this out and show this to him before you do it. It might force him to come clean instead of destroying even more by finding out this way. Trust me I do it for a living for a law enforcement agency. Internet history is one thing that is very hard to get rid of even after you deleted it. There is just too much of it.


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Hardtohandle said:


> I don't know your money situation, but a Computer Forensic examiner could recover much of the deleted data. Sometimes its not even deleted. Its just in the private browsing folder. Its still there, you just don't have a clue how to access it.
> 
> Depending on where you live they can charge from 75 an hour to 150 an hour in big cities like NYC or Cali and San Fran.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Can I do this without knowing his password?


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## whataboutthis? (Apr 5, 2013)

Hardtohandle said:


> I don't know your money situation, but a Computer Forensic examiner could recover much of the deleted data. Sometimes its not even deleted. Its just in the private browsing folder. Its still there, you just don't have a clue how to access it.
> 
> Depending on where you live they can charge from 75 an hour to 150 an hour in big cities like NYC or Cali and San Fran.
> 
> ...


Ouch...just checked this out in my city. $2500 retainer fee and $200 per hour. Plus additional fees for specific searches and preparation of documents.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Bobby5000 said:


> you can't correct a problem until you acknowledge there is a problem.


:iagree:

This is absolutely correct regardless of the specifics. If there was no affair there is still a problem, which is the all the garbage due to the suspicions. Which requires the person to acknowledge their behavior appeared suspicious and thus they contributed to the situation. So they must materially participate in correcting the problem.

What OP is getting, and what I am getting from my wife, is "I didn't do anything. Your problem". It is hardly an attitude which inspires confidence.


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