# How to Resolve Differences



## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

Hey guys, I have been going back and forth for a while about how to handle this situation. I want to know if anyone else has ever been in a similar situation, and also what you would do if you were in my shoes.

My wife and I got married this past spring after dating long distance for about 2 years. We moved to a small town, states away from either of our families, where I was going to graduate school. Shortly after being married I realized there were several serious differences between us that caused trouble and have left me feeling unfulfilled.

I do not get the amount of financial or domestic support from my wife that I believed I would get prior to marriage. When I bought a ring to propose she was 2 semesters away from completing her associates in Early Childhood Ed. I had thought that she would complete her degree and get a job doing what she's passionate about while providing extra income while I completed graduate school. She failed most of her classes and is now working part 20-25 hours a week at minimum wage.

Things are very difficult financially right now. I had saved up $30,000 prior to getting married and going to gradschool. I spent about $4,000 on the ring, and $12,000 on the wedding. I paid for the entire wedding with no help because I absolutely love my wife and her family is in her words "very poor." I paid off her student loans and put the rest away in investments and a retirement fund, which I was excited to start at just 24. 

Currently I work a graduate school job to pay for my tuition along with a second which is used for bills. This is on top of being a full time student taking 5-6 courses (3 is considered average) a semester.

I wish my wife would work 40 hours a week since she is not in school, but that is usually not possible with her current employer and she will not get a second job. She has talked about getting a different job, but she is very picky. She will not be a waiter because she says she would cry every night. She will only work fast food as a last resort. We are currently on food stamps, so I think this qualifies as a last resort, but we disagree on this. Her ideal non preschool teacher job would be to work as a barista again.

This is not just about money, and it's not to say my wife is lazy. She is the hardest worker at her current employer and she always gives her best, but she gets anxiety about almost everything work related and recently asked if she could take a full week off to recoup. I said that I'd love for her to be able to take a rest, but we are currently on food stamps and I had to sell my guitar just to stay current on last month's bills. I have already cashed in my retirement funds. The good news is that we are not in serious "adult" type debt, but I have been pulling some extreme measures just to keep us afloat.

The whole anxiety and work issues are apart of a bigger issue which I see as one of independence. I had hoped to marry someone who would have a passion and a life outside our marriage and who wouldn't lean on me for everything - it drains me. I thought that is what she had in early childhood ed (which she's very good at) and she had good friends and family back home. We have been living here 8 months and she still has no friends and has said that she doesn't really want friends because she hates this town and everyone is different (small town south vs big city north) and she just wants to spend time with me. Since grad classes do not meet very often and since I work on campus I am around her all the time despite being constantly busy. 

I love being around my wife, but I often feel suffocated and it hurts so much to see her unable to pursue her passion (preschool kids) and to see her unhappy all the time; and it hurts to not get enough financial support or not to get domestic support which I'll skip over for now. I feel like the adult in this relationship, and I love my wife very much but I'm reaching the breaking point. What would you do?


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## SadandAngry (Aug 24, 2012)

Why did she fail all her classes? Why are you surprised to learn of her attitudes regarding money now? Were there no clues before, or did you gloss over them and figure everything would work out on its own? Have you sat down and had an honest talk about the whole situation with her? Does she know exactly how you feel because you directly and honestly say so, or do you dance around and drop hints hoping things will change?


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

I didn't realize that our differences would be this serious. She failed her classes because she has difficulty understanding when assignments are due. Most of the classes that semester were online and she was always turning assignments in late or not turning them in at all, despite the fact that she almost always made As on the actual assignments themselves. Her mother never sat her down and made her do homework growing up.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

Your wife needs to grow up quickly, and you need to refuse to enable her. Or you will be stuck with a spoiled princess for the rest of your marriage. 

How long did you date in a "non-long distance relationship"? How old are you two? Has she ever lived on her own?

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

And that excuse for missing her assignments has to be the worst one I've ever read. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

We dated off and on for about 2 and a half years. That's just the tip of the ice berg. She refuses to learn to drive stick shift, so I have to drive us everywhere since we only have 1 car. Last summer she thought she contracted oral herpes from some girl at work, despite not having anything on her lip; and then worried that she had given me genital herpes despite not having any bumps on me, and then cried and wouldn't let me kiss her/have sex for about a week until she was assured she didn't have anything. Although she's still somewhat of a hypocondriac, nothing this severe has happened the past few months.

The difference in education level is also a serious problem. Here's some examples of it just from this afternoon:

I had to explain what the continent of South America was. She asked if it was Mexico and I had to explain that it was below that.
She wants to start juicing wheat grass so she asked me to look up the benefits. I looked up the benefits which led to me explaining the cardiovascular system, what chlorophyl is in plants, and the difference between veins and arteries.

It makes me feel so alone.

She needs to take college algebra for her degree, but we are working up to that. We started with multiplication which she had down pretty well already, so then we moved to division. That's good but we are having some issues with decimals and fractions. I was an algebra tutor in highschool and in undergrad, but teaching her can be difficult because she is very defensive and I think I may be too tough. However, she did get out a book of 8th grade math from the library yesterday. I was proud of that. She also gets high anxiety when she has to do math in front of people. For instance, when the cash register was down she had to make change from a gift card and she says she's pretty sure she messed up. I asked her what the amount on the card was vs the amount on the purchase and verified that she had made correct change, but she says it's happened more than once. She was mad that the business owner did not have a calculator next to the register for when things like that happen.

She wants to homeschool kids one day. Initially I said I was against that, but now I've just said, we will see where we are at when the time comes. Honestly I may be ok with it one day, maybe, but right now there's no way I'd let my wife homeschool kids if we had any.

It also bothers me for some reason because I had just always thought I'd marry a working woman who had a passion for something outside of the house. This may sound contradictory since I was homeschooled part way through school, but I will add the caveat that my mom has a Master's in Secondary Education, was a teacher for 15 years first, and also runs a small business testing kids for private schools/aig/homeschooling/tutoring and helping kids get into special ed programs. I grew up watching my mom work with various kids and parents and know that homeschooling can definitely be a good thing, but it is also incredibly demanding.

The women in my family have always been strong like that. My grandma is 75 and is some type of volunteer manager. My Great Aunt is 79 and has some high level job working for the Lieutenet Governor. My sister was admitted into architecture school at 17. That's not to say that being a stay at home mom doesn't take a lot, I also have respect for that, but that is a different discussion altogether.

My wife is very caring, very spriritually strong, our values are near identical, and she's beautiful and has a great personality (very similar sense of humor). So I don't want to sound like I'm throwing my wife under the bus. I love her and who she is, but at the same time I feel so alone a lot of the time.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Was your wife's education severely lacking, or does she suffer from one or more learning disabilities? The time management issues might suggest ADHD. Often ADHD children miss out on a great deal of the education that's available to them because they cannot focus. It's also not uncommon for ADHD to be comorbid with other processing disorders, which of course adds layers to the challenge an already unfocused child faces in an educational setting. Of course, it's also possible her education was simply sub-par and she lacked the personal initiative to learn on her own at home.


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

That's a really good question. How do I bring that up without being rude? I think a lot of it can be traced to her childhood. Her mother went through a divorce before she was born and kind of lost touch with a lot of reality and became a hoarder. Her father was a lot older (late 50s), was never around much and passed away when she was 9. She was bulimic from 14 to 17 and was dying in rehab when she rededicated her life to Christ and came out of it for the most part.


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

I agree with Rowan. Ask her to get tested. It's not disrespect (ADD is also called the Edison gene), she just may learn differently. There are plenty of resources around.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Are you sure you love her? It does not sound like it.

It sounds like the gap in intelligence between you two is pretty important to you.

For sure do not get her pregnant, or your situation could get much more complicated.

We homeschool, and it's mostly free range. It doesn't have to be super-structured to be successful. If your wife is weak in math, the Saxon math books are self-teaching.

I'm sad to see this attitude. I don't drive a stick either, and when we are in Europe, dh has to do all the driving. He never complains. And he has had to explain all kinds of things to me, and that never bothers him either. I really wish you had thought about the gap in intelligence between you before you got married. And if your wife has any idea you are comparing her unfavorably to women in your family, I am sure she feels hurt.

If you do decide to get divorced, you would each have a chance to meet someone more at each one's level. Then you might each feel more comfortable. Are you getting the sense that she does not feel comfortable with your teaching her?


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

I may talk about gradschool or how I have to teach her things or our family backgrounds, but I think it really just comes down to this: 

We are on food stamps, I had to sell all of my possessions (guitar, amp, playstation, tv etc.) and some of our wedding gifts just to pay bills over the past few months. We consolidated our phone plan down to 1 cell (not a smart phone) and moved in with a roommate to split rent. We didn't have a bed for 3 months in the new apartment and slept on the floor. 

All of that doesn't bother me so long as we are trying our best to get out of the situation - and everything else is a minor issue compared to that. Call it attitude, call it work ethic, whatever, but am I wrong for wanting my wife to work 40 hours a week or at least ask for more hours instead of asking if she can take a week off. It's not like we have kids at the house to take care of. She spends most of her free time watching Dr. Phil on Youtube or Hulu Documentaries about Weight Loss - which I would have absolutely no problem with _if_ I wasn't spending my book money on the rent and then spending the rest of the semester borrowing books from friends or the department just so I can do my homework. Please tell me I'm wrong.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You want an equal partner. You don't have one right now.

You're worried about money. Why did you spend so much on the ring, btw? And the wedding?

My dh was an engineer and I was a teacher when we got married. No debt. We spent $100 on each ring (just bands) and $500 on a very simple, very small (think 10 people) wedding. It remains the happiest day of my life.

I say the above just for consideration purposes. I know it is too late for you. Although, could you sell the wedding ring? I have no idea of resale value. Would that get your financial situation through your wife's head?

I would be worried about finances, too. Most people are. But your worries seem bigger than just some temporary financial problems. You seem to be worried that you married the wrong woman. Is that right?


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## survivorwife (May 15, 2012)

mxpx4182 said:


> I may talk about gradschool or how I have to teach her things or our family backgrounds, but I think it really just comes down to this:
> 
> We are on food stamps, I had to sell all of my possessions (guitar, amp, playstation, tv etc.) and some of our wedding gifts just to pay bills over the past few months. We consolidated our phone plan down to 1 cell (not a smart phone) and moved in with a roommate to split rent. We didn't have a bed for 3 months in the new apartment and slept on the floor.
> 
> All of that doesn't bother me so long as *we are trying our best to get out of the situation *- and everything else is a minor issue compared to that. Call it attitude, call it work ethic, whatever, but am I wrong for wanting my wife to work 40 hours a week or at least ask for more hours instead of asking if she can take a week off. It's not like we have kids at the house to take care of. She spends most of her free time watching Dr. Phil on Youtube or Hulu Documentaries about Weight Loss - which I would have absolutely no problem with _if_ I wasn't spending my book money on the rent and then spending the rest of the semester borrowing books from friends or the department just so I can do my homework. Please tell me I'm wrong.


It appears to me that "*we* are not trying our best"...you are. She doesn't appear to be on board with you to actually address the problem, but is only making minimal effort in order to make it appear that she is trying. Was this a "bait and switch" on you in order to have you support her?

Please do not have children with her until you resolve these financial issues. It's quite possible that she will try to get pregnant in order to use the child as yet another excuse to avoid financial accountability and to continue to put the burden on you.

There is no excuse for her to have failed her college courses and to forfeit any personal financial ambitions once married to you, unless this was really her goal. You may need to actually have that "hard" discussion with her in order to find out her intentions *now*, instead of of later.

Your expectations were based on what she appeared to be trying to accomplished when she was single. You assumed that she would continue to pursue her education and reap the benefits. You intended to take that which you knew about her, support her (emotionally) and grow together as a couple. She put the brakes on everything once she had the wedding ring on her finger. Does that not sound like "bait and switch"?

I hope you can work things out with her and she reverses her current course. If she chooses not to do so, or only gives you "lip service" then please reconsider the marriage and any future with the addition of children in the mix. Life is too short to get stuck. Good luck to you.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think the best way to say this is just to say it. You married a woman with a host of emotional and psychological issues, who has no idea what a functioning marriage and family even looks like. She's not behaving like an adult. Because emotionally she isn't one and she has no idea how to be one. That is not to say she's not a lovely woman who deserves a loving and happy marriage. But unless there's been a lot of serious IC that you've failed to mention, my guess is that she totally lacks an awareness of how to be a grown-up in a healthy marriage.

You are not wrong to want an equal partner in your life. But the woman you married does not seem to have the skills or the emotional wherewithal to be an equal partner. She may at some point, but not right now, and probably not without a good deal of therapy - which she would need to want and be willing to work hard on in order to gain anything real from. 

By the way, your "recovered" bulimic wife sitting home all day watching weight-loss documentaries? That's disordered thinking right there.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I hear you, Rowan. But I think he could work with her. 

They need transparency (he could model this) and he needs to use Active Listening. But he would have to want to be the leader in this, because, as you have said, she is just not able to. I think he has to decide if he wants to do this or not.


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

Thanks guys. I am going to talk to her after I pick her up from work today and have a serious discussion about applying for new jobs, whether it's as a second or as a replacement. I think I'm going to present it in terms of being able to pay our bills and do other things she wants - like change her last name which we haven't had money to do.

Someone asked why did I spend so much on the engagement ring? That is a good question. I started designing the ring with a jeweler almost a year and a half ago (wow!). At the time she was about to complete her first year at her local community college and had made near straight As in pursuit of early childhood education, which was her passion. We had serious conversations about how she would finish her degree prior to the wedding and would then look for a preschool teacher job after we moved. I know preschool teachers and daycare workers don't make much money, so you can't say that what I really want is a woman who brings home a huge paycheck - but there is also a huge difference between a $20k-$25k a year salary and $6k-$7k a year which is about what she currently makes. I also wouldn't have started a retirement plan at 24 if I had thought we'd end up in this situation.

It's not that there weren't warning signs though. She failed out of an expensive private Christian school before we met due to partying; however I believe in 2nd chances and she wasn't a partier when we met (still isn't). We sat down and planned out her final year at community college so that she could graduate on time, but over the last 2 semesters she ended up getting anxiety and wanted to take less because it was too stressful. I encouraged her over and over to stick with her plan, but eventually told her that I would be happy if she gave up work and stuck with her studies exclusively. I would pay her phone bill and anything else so that she could graduate on time. She loved her job as a barista and still worked a few hours here and there while in school. Instead she ended up failing almost all of her classes her final 2 semesters. She blamed it on taking internet courses where she didn't know when assignments were due and also having anxiety over me working in Afghanistan.

She has matured a lot since we've met, and I know that I have too. She's much _less_ of a hypocondriac. She used to worry at least once a month that she was going to die. One time when we were engaged I woke up with a voicemail that said she was in excruciating pain and thought she was dying and that she had made peace with that. I tried calling her multiple times and couldn't get a hold of her. My future inlaws had no clue what was going on. Eventually I got a hold of her around lunch time and she was doing alright. We did eventually find out that she had gallbladder problems, so she didn't make up the pain, but what scared me was her attitude and that it happened about other things as well. She often says that God gave her a second chance at life in rehab, and so if she ends up screwing up He will take away her second chance and she will die. FWIW I haven't heard her say this over the past 2 months, so maybe this is fading away. Also when we first got married and would fight she used to cry and scream that she wanted to die, she also would say it would just be easier if she would just die; I have not heard this in probably 4 months, so that's better too. It may have to do with our communication getting better, I no longer yell, and we don't fight nearly as much.

But I also pick my battles. Initially I was very upset that she wouldn't drive my car, since she used to drive her brother's stick shift. We practiced some and then it just eventually died, and I haven't brought it up in about 5 months. I had to learn that she needed more one on one attention, and so I try to do my homework at the library and devote my time specifically to her when I'm at the apartment. This has improved things.

As for her behavior related to weight loss shows and having an eating disorder in the past, I also thought it was unhealthy that she spends so much time watching documentaries about weight and healthy eating. However, she pointed out to me that it's all positive. At least that is true in the weight loss documentaries, everyone ends up happy and healthy. So I don't mention anything about it now, and I even watch them with her. The old me would have never watched stuff like this, but when you get married you grow; and I think it's a sign of maturity to be able to understand and accept things that weren't initially apart of your culture or in your comfort zone. 

With that being said, I still do think that her weight is too much of an issue. For the first 6 months of marriage she used to constantly complain about getting fat or being fat or how difficult it was for her to lose weight. I told her constantly, every day, that she was beautiful, but I messed up once. One evening I told her that I had thought she had put more into her how she looked for me before we got married than she did now. This set off a war and one of our worst fights ever. I felt like she didn't try to dress up for me or put a lot of effort in. Maybe that was a rude thing to say, but I didn't mean that I thought she was fat and I explained that, but it was exactly how she took it. For me attitude is more important than weight. I love her, it doesn't matter about the weight. She asked me if I was more physically attracted to her 6 months before we got married than now 2 months after. I told her she has always been beautiful and that I loved her no matter what. Eventually after about 10 minutes of being questioned I said yes, I did (she was about 15 lbs lighter) but that didn't mean much because she was still the most beautiful girl alive. She told me that if she had known that she looked prettier 6 months prior to the wedding (she used that because it was a low weight) than on her wedding day she would never have married me. I told her that was crazy. She said it wasn't and that her friend (who I know had an eating disorder with her) would have left her husband and taken the baby if he had said that to her. I was completely shocked. 

That statement affected our marriage probably up until December. Since then it hasn't really come up, which is definitely a good sign because she has gained weight since then. One of her New Years resolutions is to stop calling herself fat which I think is very good. So, there has definitely been progress, but it has also been exhausting.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

She is so fragile. You are going to have to be the mature one, to keep on being the mature one you already are.

It sounds like she is worth all this work to you. I think you are right to do this.

Active Listening. Listen and repeat back to her what she says. Do it until she is calm. When she is calm, transparently tell her your feelings. If she gets upset, back to active listening.

Lots of hugs, lots of holding. Imagine you had a five year old in your arms. She needs your love and stability so much. She doesn't have it inside.

Invest the time now and it will pay off later. My husband did. He says that now he is reaping the benefits.


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

Last night I learned a lot of new things about my wife. Apparently she used to cut herself from 14 to 17. Before that she used to claw her arms until they bled, or slam her head into the wall repeatedly as a way of getting back at her family for not treating her the way she wanted to be treated. She also used to pull her hair out. That all started around 9. 

It completely broke my heart listening to her tell me those things. I know that this started out as more of a financial complaint, but it's turning into something else. It's about 6am here and I'm about to go to work and I've got this sick feeling in my stomach, in my throat. When I was holding her last night it was as if I were holding a daughter, not my wife. I felt completely awful; all these things are affecting how I see my wife. I almost never have sex with her because I'm crazy wanting her, but because I want to feel close to her, because I want sex in general, or because I want to make her happy. It's not because I don't think she's pretty, but the dynamics of our relationship have become more of a father/daughter or older brother/younger sister dynamic. In some S&M lifestyles this is considered a fetish, and while I used to think of myself as open to a little kink I do not see at all how anyone can be attracted to or enjoy an ageist or whatever it's called lifestyle. I want to love my wife like a wife, and her anxieties are giving me huge anxieties.

Speaking of which, I won't go into all of them, but has anyone ever heard of or dealt with depersonalization? My wife has complained in the past of feeling like she was "in a dream like state all the time," like she was watching herself and has said multiple times that when she talks it's as if she's hearing someone else speak. This comes and goes, but sometimes it lasts for weeks at a time. Anyway she has been doing research on it and found that it's called depersonalization. I never knew there was such a diagnosis. It seems pretty broad and I am somewhat skeptical of how well doctors understand this when the listed causes are as diverse as skitzophrenia on one end of the spectrum to migraines and sleep deprivation on the other. Needless to say I feel that this is becoming more and more of a mental health issue as I learn more about my wife. I feel completely awful, but I know she feels even worse.

Also, how frequently do women cry on average? I have had some serious relationships in the past, but I never lived with anyone before getting married. My wife cries about every other day, sometimes multiple times a day.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I am assuming you are not going to seek a divorce.

These issues are over my head. You could seek counseling for her, but you are probably going to need to be very supportive, too.

My dh has been two parts husband, one part father to me. I had some of the issues your wife has had. Fatherly support is invaluable for a woman like this. It can be healing. Expect nearly everyone to tell you that this is wrong, wrong, wrong.

You should still be having sex. Our sex life has always been active. Try not to let the caring you do for her interfere with that. And you should be transparent with her, including your sexual needs. 

Actually, the more caring you do for her, the holding and active listening, the more she will bond to you, and the more likely healing will take place.

Consider what you are doing now intense, intense bonding. You are tying very tight cords of love around your wife and you. 

Dd18 told me the other day that dh and I are one. The things you are doing, while time-intensive right now, will likely bond you very tightly, too. And as difficulties come in life, you will be glad for this close relationship with her.

So, don't be afraid. You are being entrusted with her very self, her innermost being. Continue to treat her with respect and tenderness. Again, this is healing for her, and will benefit your relationship.

You are doing the right thing. Not all men can. Be proud.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> Lots of hugs, lots of holding. Imagine you had a five year old in your arms. She needs your love and stability so much. She doesn't have it inside.
> 
> 
> 
> Invest the time now and it will pay off later. My husband did. He says that now he is reaping the benefits.



The only scenario I can think of an adult acting like a five year old is BPD and I would not want to suggest that... But emotional swings and other issues seem to be present so..

Do not try to teach her stick. Some people get it, many don't. Plan better.

She needs a confidence booster right now. Could a barista job provide that? 

Finally, "intellectual equality" in a marriage is no guarantee of success. I'm an intellectual equal to my wife education and income wise and a lot of good that has done ...

Ask your schools psych dept if they could do a psych eval for her pro bono. There's a lot of vibes coming that I'm not too sure about. 

Marriage is hard work especially if you're young but it's even harder if you're trying to raise her at the same time.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

> My dh has been two parts husband, one part father to me. I had some of the issues your wife has had. Fatherly support is invaluable for a woman like this. It can be healing. Expect nearly everyone to tell you that this is wrong, wrong, wrong.


In the immortal words of Lost In Space...

View attachment 14609


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

Thanks guys. I have been doing the active listening. I also put together a spreadsheet on excel that showed all of our expenses for each month through the end of May vs our income dependent upon how many hours she works/wk. Below that I had the difference, whether positive money in the bank account or negative (debt). 28 hours/wk is the breaking point. which I don't think is too much to ask since she's not in school (I'd prefer more than 28, but perhaps we could compromise at 30). She was upset and told me that if she works more then our relationship will suffer because we won't have much time together. I'm already gone 1-2 weekends a month, plus an overloaded semester's work of worth, and my campus job; so I'm not so sure how that really adds up. If I'm going to be gone a lot she might as well work more. She also said she wasn't angry but she was afraid that if she works more I'll be upset because the house won't be as clean.

Which brings us to the other issue I mentioned but never really touched on, domestic help. Here's the day's events so far: Wake up at 8, have sex, then read together for 30 minutes. Take a shower. She put some towels in the washer and then got some cereal and went upstairs to watch a weight loss documentary. I cleaned up all the dirty dishes lying around the house, including 3 cups and a coffee mug from our bedroom - none of which were from me - and wash them. There were more dishes to be done, so I cleaned those, including our juicer which hadn't been cleaned in 3 days and was beginning to smell like sauerkraut. Then I put the towels in the dryer and started a load of clothes in the washer, which I had picked up from all over our bedroom floor. One pair of shorts were mine, the rest of the clothes were hers. Then I started cooking some meals to put in the freezer for the rest of the week since this is my first week back of school. At that point my wife couldn't find her work pants.

This led to a breakdown and hyperventilating and crying. I checked the washer and found that I had put them in the laundry basket, so I took them out and put them in the dryer promptly and went to tell my wife and comfort her. She was somewhat mad but later forgave me. I agree that I am to blame. I knew she had to work this morning so I should have checked everything before I put it in the washer. At the same time, our floor was absolutely covered in her clothes, and if you cover the floor in dirty clothes that's just asking to have them all cleaned up. Speaking of which, I didn't know this until now, but she doesn't put her work pants in the dryer because she's afraid they will shrink on her. She's gone from a B cup to a C to a D since we got married 8 months ago and none of her bras fit her, so she's afraid the same thing will happen to her pants. I'm hoping she's at least been washing them and then air drying them, because otherwise that'd be gross, but I'm not so sure. 

After that I drove her to work. Then I went to the grocery store to pick up food that we were low on and came back to fix myself something to eat and then make some food to bring to my wife for lunch at her job, since she didn't make anything for herself this morning. I have class at 2 today and get out tonight at 9, but I have to leave in between classes to go pick her up and take her home, before going back to school. I also have to go to the book store and figure out which books I can get away with not buying yet, and then buy or rent the others.

I am going to work with her on putting together a resume at some point this week. She has 3 days off in a row, so that should be good time to go job searching if she agrees. This is all exhausting.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Mxpx, I haven't read all the replies, but a few.

While it sounds to me like you two have some serious compatibility issues, I am wondering if you could find a workaround. 

With what you described about her work anxiety, her passion for working with pre-schoolers, and her unwillingness to drive... what would happen if you suggested that she provide in-home care for pre-school aged children? Even if she did not score well in her classes, the fact that she has ANY education in this might actually give her an edge and lead to great success for her.

ETA: oh geeze, I just read your responses above this. I dunno how a woman whose responsibility level is on par with a pre-schooler can adequately provide care for them! You might take a look at my article on Borderline Personality Disorder, too. I'm not saying she has this, but I do see some signs of it being quite possible: http://hubpages.com/hub/Borderline-Personality-Disorder-and-Relationships


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

Thanks for the suggestion Kathy. That would be really cool and I will suggest it. I am not sure, however, if our apartment is the best for that considering we share it (with an undergrad student and sometimes his gf), don't have TV, and live in the bar district (to save money, not because we want to). Perhaps she could do some babysitting for ppl at the church we are about to join.

I know she wants to start working with the nursery at church, and I am encouraging her to get involved with that. Unfortunately I am gone 1-2x a month and she won't drive, so it wouldn't be every week. I wonder if she couldn't just do some volunteering at a local daycare as an "internship." It would probably lift her spirits.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

I posted an edit to as you were posting. If you missed the link I posted, please consider taking a look. If Uptown were on here, he would be able to talk at length with you about BPD, and one of the things he has said (which is quoted in my article) is how he felt like he was trying to fill the Grand Canyon with a squirt gun.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Could you sit down and agree on some ground rules, like the clothes have to be picked up, so that everyone can have clean clothes when they need them?

Basic rules like that, with reasons behind them, are usually things everyone understands and will be likely to follow. They see that it is to their benefit to follow them.

You know your situation best, mx. What do you think you should do?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Do you have any common friends that you can "milk" for information? What you describe sounds like typical college aged MALES at 20. Women hopefully mature faster... 

Start with small accomplishments like picking up clothes and explain that you did not marry her to be her parent. Explain the financials and tell her if she does not go along there may be drastic changes down the road.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> In the immortal words of Lost In Space...
> 
> View attachment 14609


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

mxpx4182 said:


> This is becoming more and more of a mental health issue as I learn more about my wife.


Hello, punk rocker (aka, MxPx). I agree with Rowan, Kathy, and John that you seem to be describing disordered thinking and serious emotional issues. I also agree with PBear and JLD that your W sounds very immature and fragile.


> Apparently she used to cut herself from 14 to 17. Before that she used to claw her arms until they bled, or slam her head into the wall repeatedly as a way of getting back at her family for not treating her the way she wanted to be treated. She also used to pull her hair out. That all started around 9.


The cutting, head banging, hair pulling, and other forms of self harm are STRONGLY associated with BPD. Indeed, "self-mutilating behavior" is one of the nine behavioral traits used in diagnosing BPD. Moreover, a 2004 study of self-mutilating behavior concludes:The majority of those who self-mutilate are *women with borderline personality disorder*. This complex, maladaptive behavior is used by clients as a means of self-preservation and emotion regulation, and is often associated with childhood trauma. See Understanding those who se... [J Psychosoc Nurs Ment Health Serv. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI.​Significantly, self-mutilation is not the only BPD symptom you mention. Many behaviors you describe -- i.e., the temper tantrums triggered in seconds by trivial issues, always being "The Victim," lack of trust, lack of impulse control, and sudden flips between adoring and devaluing you -- are some of the classic traits  of BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I therefore suggest that you see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on exactly WHAT it is that you are dealing with. 

While you're waiting for an appointment with a psychologist, I suggest you read about BPD and NPD traits to see if most sound very familiar. Importantly, neither of us is capable of _diagnosing_ your W's issues. Only a professional can do that (i.e., determine whether she has a full-blown disorder). You nonetheless are capable of spotting the _warning signs_ for these two disorders if you take time to learn what red flags to look for. As you already know too well, there is nothing subtle about traits such as temper tantrums, self-mutilation, and always being "The Victim."


> Has anyone ever heard of or dealt with depersonalization?


Yes, that's what it's called in Europe -- i.e., _"Depersonalization Disorder."_ Here in the USA it's called _"Dissociative Identity Disorder"_ (DID). They are the same thing. Significantly, severe dissociation (aka, "depersonalization") is one of the nine symptoms used in defining BPD. To be diagnosed as having full-blown BPD, a person doesn't have to exhibit all nine traits strongly. Rather, only five are required.

I note that DID used to be called "Multiple Personality Disorder." I mention this because it is common for the partners of BPDers to complain that they feel like they're living with a person who is half-way to having multiple personalities. Certainly, that is exactly how I felt during the 15 years I lived with my BPDer exW. I nonetheless caution that, although it feels that way to many partners, BPD is NOT regarded by the psychiatric community as being "half-way to DID." The severe dissociation typically occurs only occasionally with BPDers.

The relationship between DID and BPD is controversial, however. Some psychologists believe DID is an extreme form of BPD. Lauer, Black, and Keen, for example, concluded that there are few differences in symptoms between BPD and DID (Multiple personality disorder and border... [Ann Clin Psychiatry. 1993] - PubMed - NCBI). Others believe that the two disorders are distinct but sufficiently similar that BPD is often mistaken for DID, causing DID to be over-diagnosed. Horevitz and Braun, for example, found that 70% of patients who had been diagnosed with DID would just as likely, by chart review, meet the criteria for BPD. See "Are Multiple Personalities Borderline? An Analysis of 33 Cases" at Are multiple personalities borderlin... [Psychiatr Clin North Am. 1984] - PubMed - NCBI. If you want to read more, a 2009 overview of these studies is provided at Dissociative Identity Disorder. 


> My wife has complained in the past of feeling like she was "in a dream like state all the time," like she was watching herself and has said multiple times that when she talks it's as if she's hearing someone else speak.


Yes, that's what severe dissociation feels like, i.e., like an out-of-body experience or like you are a character in somebody's movie. It is a more extreme form of the much milder dissociation that you do many times each day. Your daydreaming, for example, is a mild form of dissociation. 

Do you remember the time you were driving and suddenly realized that you could not remember a thing from the past ten minutes, not even the three lighted intersections you went through? Do you also remember the time you walked into the kitchen to get something from the refrigerator but, on opening the door, you had no idea what you were looking for?

Well, both of those incidents are examples of the mild dissociation that we "Nons" (nonBPDers) occasionally experience. While your subconscious mind was safely driving you through three intersections, your conscious mind was daydreaming a thousand miles away. And while your subconscious was carefully walking you around the living room chairs and into the kitchen, your conscious mind again was focused a thousand miles away.


> [Depersonalization] seems pretty broad and I am somewhat skeptical of how well doctors understand this when the listed causes are as diverse as schizophrenia on one end of the spectrum to migraines and sleep deprivation on the other.


Yes, looking at a single trait doesn't tell you much because that one trait may be associated with many different disorders. This is why professionals look for a "syndrome," i.e., a pattern of dysfunctional behaviors that therapists often see occurring together in their clients.

When examining patterns of behavior for your W, the issue is NOT whether she exhibits all nine of the BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. This is why BPD is said to be a "spectrum disorder," which means everyone has all nine traits to some degree.

At issue, then, is whether your W exhibits most BPD traits at a strong and persistent level. Not having met her, I certainly cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you are fully capable of spotting any BPD warning signs that are present if you take time to learn what to look for.


> I think a lot of it can be traced to her childhood. Her mother went through a divorce before she was born and kind of lost touch with a lot of reality and became a hoarder. Her father was a lot older (late 50s), was never around much and passed away when she was 9.


A recent study of about 35,000 American adults found that 70% of the BPDers report they had been abused or abandoned in early childhood. Typically, the trauma occurs before age five and thus usually freezes the child's emotional development at age 3 or 4. This is why you will see adult BPDers being fully reliant on the primitive ego defenses that are available to young children. These include, e.g., projection, magical thinking, black-white thinking, denial, and temper tantrums.


> She was bulimic from 14 to 17 and was dying in rehab when she rededicated her life to Christ and came out of it for the most part.


Most people with eating disorders do NOT have strong BPD traits. Such eating disorders, however, greatly raise the risk for having BPD. It is estimated that 25 percent of individuals with anorexia nervosa -- and 28% of those with bulimia nervosa -- also have BPD. See Borderline Personality Disorder and Eating Disorders. 


> I've got this sick feeling in my stomach, in my throat. When I was holding her last night it was as if I were holding a daughter, not my wife....the dynamics of our relationship have become more of a father/daughter....


If your W has strong BPD traits, that is exactly how you should be feeling. As I noted above, untreated BPDers typically have the emotional development of a four year old. This is why they never learned how to regulate their emotions, how to avoid black-white thinking, how to do self soothing, or how to intellectually challenge their intense feelings instead of accepting them as self-evident "facts."


> Her anxieties are giving me huge anxieties.


If you are living with a BPDer, consider yourself lucky if you are only feeling _"huge anxieties."_ Many, if not most, spouses of BPDers feel like they may be _losing their minds_. Indeed, of the 157 disorders listed in the DSM-5, BPD is the one most notorious for making the partners feel like they are going crazy.

As to _"her anxieties,"_ she likely would have at least two co-occurring "clinical" disorders if she is a BPDer. A recent study found that 80% of female BPDers have a co-occurring lifetime condition of BOTH a mood disorder (e.g., depression or bipolar) and an anxiety disorder. See Table 3 at PubMed Central, Table 3: J Clin Psychiatry. 2008 April; 69(4): 533–545..


> My wife is very caring, very spiritually strong, our values are near identical, and she's beautiful and has a great personality.


Being a caring, wonderful person does NOT rule out her having strong BPD traits. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both had full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct. A BPDer's problem is not being _bad_ but, rather, _unstable.
_


> She still has no friends and has said that she doesn't really want friends because she hates this town and everyone is different.


Perhaps I'm mistaken but this sounds like "black-white thinking" to me. I mention it because BPDers (and narcissists as well) are notorious for having no tolerance for ambiguities, uncertainties, dualities, and other grey areas of interpersonal relationships. They therefore shoehorn everyone (including themselves) into a black or white box -- so they know how to deal with them. 

The result is that a BPDer will categorize everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in only ten seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other, based solely on a minor comment or action. This instant reclassification is nowhere more apparent than in your W's incredible statement that, had she known you believed she was a bit heavier on her wedding day than she was six months earlier, she would never have married you.


> Also, how frequently do women cry on average? ...My wife cries about every other day, sometimes multiple times a day....my wife couldn't find her work pants. This led to a breakdown and hyperventilating and crying.


You are describing a woman who is emotionally unstable, i.e., unable to control her own emotions. I mention this because, of the nine symptoms that define BPD, the most important is the inability to regulate one's own emotions. Indeed, this trait is such an essential feature of BPD that a large segment of the psychiatric community has been lobbying for over two decades to change the disorder's name to "Emotional Regulation Disorder."


> When we first got married and would fight she used to cry and scream that she wanted to die, she also would say it would just be easier if she would just die.


IMO, the clear implication of screaming _"I want to die"_ is the implied threat of _"Do as I say or I will kill myself."_ I mention this because one of the defining traits for BPD is _"recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or *threats*."_


> She told me that if she had known that she looked prettier 6 months prior to the wedding ...than on her wedding day she would never have married me. I told her that was crazy.


No, not "crazy." But, as I noted above, it is a good example of the distorted perceptions and black-white thinking that are characteristic of BPDers. "Crazy" means the person has lost touch with physical reality, e.g., believing the newscaster is speaking to her personally. BPDers see physical reality just fine. What is distorted by their intense feelings is their perception of other peoples' intentions and motivations -- not physical reality.


> She failed her classes because she has difficulty understanding when assignments are due.


I agree with PBear that this excuse is second only to "the dog ate my homework." If she is a BPDer, her sense of self is so weak and unstable that she has no sense of self to guide her and center her. Granted, a high functioning BPDer can do very well at work, where an imposed structure gives her a sense of direction. Yet, with any objectives and goals that must be self-motivated (e.g., career objectives and hobbies), BPDers typically will be like a ship without a rudder -- sometimes going in one direction and sometimes in another.

My BPDer exW, for example, practically begged me for a piano, explaining that playing the piano had been such a great source of comfort and enjoyment to her. So I spent $3,500 on a piano that she played exactly five times, for a total of two hours. When I sold it three years later, she claimed she had never wanted it to begin with. 

Similarly, she had this false self image of being "the clothing designer." So I agreed to her spending over $5,000 on three different sewing machines and another $6,000 on fabric. In the 15 years we were married, she managed to make one dress, one vest, and a cat collar.


> She's still somewhat of a hypochondriac.


A recent study finds a strong association between hypochondriasis and Cluster C personality disorders -- but a weaker relationship with BPD. I nonetheless note that a BPDer typically is convinced she is "The Victim," which is the closest thing to a stable self image she has. The vast majority of BPDers are content to "validate" this false self image by blaming every misfortune on their mate, thereby supporting their perception of being eternal victims. 

A small subset of BPDers, however, go beyond that and "validate" their victim status by also frequently complaining about one dire ailment after another. My exW and her two sisters, all have BPD and all complained of having numerous diseases, especially fibromyalgia (which is strongly associated with BPDers). Shari Schreider calls this subset of BPDers the "waifs" and describes them at BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved.. If you don't read anything else, please read this article. It likely is the closest match to the behaviors you are describing. If you want, I can point you to a similar article by A.J. Mahari, who calls this subset of BPDers the "quiet borderlines." 


> I'm reaching the breaking point. What would you do?


I would do several things. As an initial matter, I would NOT mention anything about these traits to your W if you suspect she has strong BPD traits. If she really does, she almost certainly would just project the accusation back onto you, becoming convinced that YOU have such strong traits.

Second, I would read Kathy's excellent overview of the typical BPD behaviors at Borderline Personality Disorder and Relationships. Similarly, I describe BPD warning signs in Maybe's post at http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/33734-my-list-hell.html#post473522. And Schreiber describes the subset of "waif borderlines" at BORDERLINE WAIFS AND UNSUNG HEROES; Rescuing The Woman Who Doesn't Want To Be Saved.. Based on what you've written so far, I believe your description of BPD red flags is closer to the behavior of waifs than it is to that of typical BPDers.

Third, if those descriptions of BPD warning signs ring many bells, I would start participating (or lurking) at BPDfamily.com, which is targeted to the abused partners of BPDers. And, as I already suggested above, I also would see a clinical psychologist -- for a visit or two ALL BY MYSELF -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is I'm dealing with. 

If you decide to make an appointment, it is important you make it clear to the psychologist that your W will not be his client. In that way, he will be ethically bound to protect only YOUR best interests, not hers. I mention this because, if your W is a high functioning BPDer, therapists generally will be loath to tell her the name of this disorder (for her own protection). This is why it is prudent to consult with your own psychologist during the marriage, just as you would consult with your own attorney during a divorce. Take care, MxPx.


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

Uptown, that is a LOT of good info. Thanks.

I am not sure if she is borderline (going to read about it), but she does have a tendency to identify something as bad ("a sin") or good pretty quickly. She also has a serious problem with things not being organized at work and there being no official levels of management with set standards. FWIW there are only 6 employees at this place aside from the owner, so I'm not so sure there's really any room for a real hierarchy other than owner - manager - everyone else. I do, however, sympathize with her on dealing with the disorganization. Of the 6 different employees almost everyone's been given their turn to handle scheduling, ordering, and other management type jobs, but it's almost never announced that someone is getting new responsibilities (or being relieved of them). People also put the schedule up a day before the work week starts instead of 2 weeks in advance. She did a good job getting out information when she was manager but had severe anxiety over being given no clear boundaries by the owner about how to proceed, and whether or not she was a store manager, general manager, or something else. I'm the type of guy where if I'm given a job I will just do it, but if she doesn't have precise parameters it will give her huge anxiety. However, ultimately I agreed with her decision to step down, not only because she had anxiety but because she was being paid only a dollar and a quarter above minimum wage and was being required to do team member type stuff at work, leaving over half of her management responsibilities to be done at home and off the clock.

With that being said she hates being put in a box herself. It's not good if I make an absolute statement about her, unless I'm calling her the most beautiful girl in the world.

She also has a very strict idea of what angry is and isn't. I will be the first to admit that I had anger problems before I met my wife. I would yell in past relationships, and even up until recently. However, any type of raising your voice or looking frustrated is anger to her. You can not be yelling and she'll say "you're scaring me." The owner of her store is one of the nicest, friendliest guys I've ever met. He always has a smile on his face, almost so much that it's disgusting haha. He said that he has only ever gotten upset with customers once, which my wife told me is a lie, and that he struggles with his anger. This guy is like 1950s Leave it to Beaver, all smiles, "yes ma'am" and "no sir." I have seen him visibly be stressed by things, but I've never seen him lose his cool. I'm not saying he doesn't, and I don't even care if he has, but my overall point is that I think it's kind of crazy that my wife thinks he struggles with anger. I have found that there's absolutely no point in raising my voice at all; which by itself is a good thing, but some of the reasons for not raising my voice aren't very healthy in my opinion.

With that being said I am very proud to say that she talked to her manager about getting 28+ hours a week and she's going to get them, even if she won't have 2 days off in a row. She's also going to start volunteering at a local daycare, starting tomorrow. I hope that that leads to a job, but we will see. I only have so much time, but I will look into the mental health aspect of this issue. We have talked a lot about things recently and it's helped a lot. I can see that the best thing is to be understanding and to listen. She's been so much more pleasant when I'm constantly being gentle and doing my best to be affectionate all day.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

mxpx4182 said:


> We have talked a lot about things recently and it's helped a lot. I can see that the best thing is to be understanding and to listen. She's been so much more pleasant when I'm constantly being gentle and doing my best to be affectionate all day.


Excellent! You are building what will be a great marriage! 

And so glad things are better regarding the job and potential job.

Even if you are "right" about the anger issue, her feeling about it is what needs to be heard. That is where active listening could help. Really let her express her fears about your anger, or his, or whoever's. Just listen. Asking probing questions is good, but just repeating what she says back to her might be enough, too.


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

Here are some more examples of things that have happened recently. I think I am going to start looking up psychiatrists and find someone to talk to.

Typically she doesn't identify people as absolute good or bad, but Saturday's episode seemed pretty extreme. Here's what happened:

My roommate told me, in casual conversation, that he thought my wife wanted a baby, and said that she had been throwing out hints and that I need to be careful. I know for a fact that my wife doesn't want a baby at least until I graduate and we move/obtain full time employment. Also, our roommate is a junior who smokes weed, drinks often, and has frequently exaggerated things in the past, so I just brushed him off. He also believes that 9/11 was an inside job by Bush, and even less probable that the oil companies have invisible hitmen who kill scientists that try to tell the public that we have the technology for flying cars and bridging all 12 dimensions. Ok, so the last one he told me when he was high, but you get the idea. So when I picked up my wife I told her what he said and she completely broke down crying and started calling him evil and an attempt by satan to break her down. She said that he's an evil deceitful liar trying to pit us against each other and that she wanted to bash his face in but knew that was wrong. The whole time I was thinking "holy ****" in my head, but I just calmly listened and eventually told her that I agree he was out of place, and that I felt for her, but that he's just being immature as usual and probably made it up in his head. Things between them are perfectly fine now, in fact, she is always concerned about being tactful.

Yesterday we had a stupid argument that started like this. My wife was telling me about a particular Bible study and then started talking about how she thought that Jesus was very dark because everyone thinks He's white and God likes to surprise people. I said, "well, everyone in the United States; but remember that the United States is a small part of the world and has only been around for a very short time. I'm not going to say that He was or He wasn't, I don't care, but I think it's natural for people to think of their heros as looking like them. For instance, once the Mongols converted to Islam they began portraying Muhammed as having very Mongolian features, despite his being from Saudi Arabia." This made her pretty upset. She said that she didn't want to be lectured to and that I was mean. I get that my last statement sounded like a professor. Maybe I shouldn't have said that, but if I didn't then I'd feel like I'm limiting myself and what I have to say and what I know. The reason why I said what I said, instead of just letting it pass by, is because sometimes I get fed up with discussing race and color. My wife is black/white and I'm just white. We originally bonded over a love of different cultures, traveling, and the idea that people are a blend of the color spectrum and not very specific distinct groups of color/biology. I do understand, however, that race is a _social_ reality and so it must be addressed. Sometimes I just get tired of hearing black black black white white white every day and I said what I said because her statement was made with incredible emphasis. 

Fortunately the issue got resolved decently quickly. It was resolved in the usual manner with her growing incredibly quiet, then me asking what's wrong, then slowly coaxing it out of her and coming to some sort of agreement with me usually apologizing.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

mxpx4182 said:


> I am not sure if she is borderline....


Neither am I. The only thing I'm sure about is that, if you take time to learn the warning signs for BPD, you will be able to easily spot any strong red flags that are occurring.


> With that being said she hates being put in a box herself.


By OTHER people, yes. What I said is that, if she is a BPDer, she puts herself (as well as others) in a black or white box. A BPDer does this because, typically due to a childhood trauma, she never learned how to integrate the good and bad aspects of her personality. 

That is, she never realized that she was an essentially good child even though she occasionally did bad things. She never matured emotionally to the point of being able to accept the dualities and contradictions in her own personality. This is why a BPDer is so intolerant of the notion that she has both good and bad aspects to her personality. 

The result is that her sense of self is fragile and fractured, causing her to seek out a strong personality (i.e., you) who will ground her and center her -- giving her a sense of direction and goals. Yet, when you do exactly that for her, a BPDer will resent you for it because it feels (to her) like she is being controlled and dominated. Hence, if your W is a BPDer, it is not surprising that you cannot discuss even the most non-threatening issue (e.g., the color of Jesus' skin and the location of Latin American) without her feeling like you're trying to control her or talk down to her.


> It's not good if I make an absolute statement about her, unless I'm calling her the most beautiful girl in the world.


If she is a BPDer, she is filled with self loathing and shame that has been carried inside from early childhood. This means that the last thing she wants to hear is one more item to add to the long list of things she hates about herself. And, because a BPDer does black-white thinking, acknowledging that she has a minor flaw or made a small mistake implies -- to her way of thinking -- that she is "all bad." BPDers therefore hate to hear criticism. Moreover, because their perception of other peoples' intentions are distorted, they will see "criticism" in places where it does not even exist (e.g., in compliments).


> I think I am going to start looking up *psychiatrists *and find someone to talk to.


You may be able to cut the cost almost in half by finding a *psychologist *instead. Both usually are very good at diagnosis because both have a PhD in psychology. With psychiatrists, however, you also are paying for an M.D. degree, which is needed only if medication is to be prescribed. I therefore suggest you start with a psychologist. He will refer you to a good psychiatrist if meds are necessary.


> I told her what he said and she completely broke down crying and started calling him evil and an attempt by satan to break her down. She said that he's an evil deceitful liar.


Yep, that's a great example of B-W thinking. I caution that, when I said BPDers view people as "all good" or "all bad," I didn't mean that they actually are convinced people are either absolutely perfect or as evil as Hitler and Satan. Rather, B-W thinking will be evident in the way a BPDer will flip -- in only seconds -- from truly liking someone to never wanting to see them again. And, a week or two later, she may flip back again just as quickly. 

Moreover, the flips are usually triggered by very minor infractions or comments (real or imagined). My BPDer exW, for example, had several best friends -- each of whom lasted several years before being cut off due to a minor infraction. One such friendship actually lasted for nearly 15 years -- but only because she lived a thousand miles away. Similarly, my exW would be extremely close to her two sisters for a year and then stop speaking to them for 6 or 8 months. Then they would be best buddies again, to be followed by another breakup a year later.


> Things between them are perfectly fine now, in fact, she is always concerned about being tactful.


Like I said, the flip back may occur just as quickly -- in only a few seconds.


> She said that she didn't want to be lectured to and that I was mean. I get that my last statement sounded like a professor. Maybe I shouldn't have said that, but if I didn't then I'd feel like I'm limiting myself and what I have to say and what I know.


This floormat behavior of holding your tongue -- not behaving like your real self because you're afraid of expressing an opinion about Jesus' skin color -- is called "walking on eggshells." This enabling behavior by you actually harms your W when it allows her to continue behaving like a spoiled child without suffering any of the logical consequences of her own behavior. This is why the best-selling BPD book (targeted to the abused spouses) is called _Stop Walking on Eggshells._


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Uptown said:


> That is, she never realized that she was an essentially good child even though she occasionally did bad things. She never matured emotionally to the point of being able to accept the dualities and contradictions in her own personality.
> 
> The result is that her sense of self is fragile and fractured, causing her to seek out a strong personality (i.e., you) who will ground her and center her -- giving her a sense of direction and goals.
> If she is a BPDer, she is filled with self loathing and shame that has been carried inside from early childhood. This means that the last thing she wants to hear is one more item to add to the long list of things she hates about herself. And, because a BPDer does black-white thinking, acknowledging that she has a minor flaw or made a small mistake implies -- to her way of thinking -- that she is "all bad."


Not to thread jack, Uptown, but I can relate to this so well. Honestly, I think my sisters could, too. And yet my therapist assures me I do not have BPD. Maybe it is possible to have experienced this and not have BPD?

And my dh has been for me just what I have been trying to advise mx to be for his wife -- so stabilizing and reassuring.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

jld said:


> Not to thread jack, Uptown, but I can relate to this so well. ...And yet my therapist assures me I do not have BPD. Maybe it is possible to have experienced this and not have BPD?


BPD is not something, like chickenpox, that one "has" or "does not have." Rather, it is simply a group of basic human behaviors that we all have to some extent. As I noted earlier, this is why it's called a "spectrum disorder," which means everyone has these traits to varying degrees. At issue, then, is not whether you have the traits but, instead, whether you have them at such a strong level that they undermine your efforts to sustain a close LTR.

IME, a person satisfying only 75% or 85% of the diagnostic criteria -- and thus "not having BPD" (i.e., not having full-blown BPD) -- may be nearly as difficult to live with as a person satisfying 100% (who thus "has BPD"). Hence, from the point of view of the "Non" spouse, it really doesn't matter whether his spouse is said to "have BPD." To that Non (nonBPD) spouse, all that matters is how strong those traits are. It therefore is very encouraging, JLD, that your H says he is pleased with the way your r/s has greatly improved.


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## simplefoodie (Jan 20, 2014)

This sounds eerily similar to what I'm going through...I have even brought these issues up to her Mom and family and was told by them that she can't handle stress like others, she cant handle physical or emotional activities as it relates to everyday life. These are things I did NOT know when I married her because it was a long distance relationship, over seas in fact, therefore I didn't get the full visual. I have to admit, they were honest when I initially said something about it, her mom said "she had to catch you some how". Moral of the story, truly spend the time getting to know someone before moving forward. In your situation, its really not to late. You have no kids and really no ties. If your worried about your wife dragging you down with a sinking ship then chances are that will happen unless she has an epiphany and changes for the sake of your marriage. Sometimes guilt trips work, sometimes hitting hard bottom is exactly what it takes as well. She may have a learning disability but never the less, if she's an adult she should know the difference between right and wrong. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors. If you find something that works...please...let me know!


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

Do you have kids simplefoodie? I was also overseas, or traveling for work for much of our relationship.

I thought we were making a lot of progress but last night was particularly bad. I picked her up when she got off work at 2 and she told me that she felt particularly hormonal. She was in a bad mood for most of the rest of the afternoon and pushed away most of my physical (not necessarily sexual but affectionate) advances. Last night when we were watching Dual Survivor she zoned out and had this 5,000 mile stare on her face like she was in shock and had just seen death. I tried to talk to her to see what was wrong, tried to make eye contact, etc. Eventually she went to our bedroom and I followed. I asked her a number of things, even if she just wanted to be left alone and she was completely silent, and eventually moved to the corner of the bed and threw a blanket over her head. I asked if she was thinking about last year.

Last August I had an EA for about a week, which I ended up calling off and ended up confessing. I feel very guilty about it and if I had to sum up our relationship at times I feel like I'd say I'm a very bad man with a very good hurt little girl. I was at my wits end with my wife's hypochondria, suicide threats, depression, our financial situation, and being on the other side of the country from my mom when she was suffering from stage 4 cancer and at the time had come down with pneumonia etc. which is not to say that what I did was in any way warranted at all, this is an explanation of how I felt and why I made a _wrong_ decision. OW is a former classmate of mine and we used to study together. I was attracted to her because of intellectual compatibility and because of her work achievements and ambition - not because she was prettier than my wife. My wife's biggest problem in all of this is that I did this with a woman of inferior looks, and explained that women of inferior looks will always be jealous and have anxiety over women who are prettier than they are. So yeah, I am an awful person, but I came clean about it and have been trying my best to be a good husband.

Anyway, she started screaming at me asking me why and began spitting on me and hitting me. I told her that it was alright to be mad but we need to talk about this like adults and not scream and hit, and that I was the same today as I was yesterday and the day before and hadn't done anything different. I did my best to prevent her from hurting me without hurting her, which ended up in me on top of her with my hands on either side of her, shielding my face and trying to talk her out of it. Since she couldn't hurt me she began to scratch furiously at her arms and began scraping her skin with her nails. I decided that I had to use force so I pulled her hands off of herself and began talking to her about her childhood and how this isn't the way to handle being hurt. It was insane because as soon as I started talking to her about her childhood she got quiet and suddenly she started listening, aside from the one scream about how I'm just like other men in her life and how I am going to leave just like them. She also told me she hate me, but eventually she started listening to me and let me hold her. It was really eerie. This morning when I dropped her off at work I told her I love you, but I didn't get any response back. I have a bruise on my shoulder this morning, and this isn't the first time that my wife has left marks on me; not that I can't keep her from hurting me, but it just shouldn't ever come to that.

So yeah, I'm a **** *[email protected], but I'm trying my best. This topic is beginning to read more like a blog than anything else.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

Your wife is unstable. Very unstable. I think you need to consult with a psychologist as soon as you possibly can. Like today.


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

Since multiple people are telling me that I think I will see a psychologist. I have a little break between classes, so I'm looking up where they are in town. I just feel cautious about calling because my wife will see the number, and I feel guilty about possibly hiding it from her, but I think it must be done. Maybe I can just walk in and ask to schedule something.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mxpx4182 said:


> Also, how frequently do women cry on average? I have had some serious relationships in the past, but I never lived with anyone before getting married. My wife cries about every other day, sometimes multiple times a day.


This is not normal. Clearly, your wife has deep mental issues. Banging her head against the wall is bad enough to need to get her to a professional. Crying every day is, too.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mxpx4182 said:


> It was resolved in the usual manner with her growing incredibly quiet, then me asking what's wrong, then slowly coaxing it out of her and coming to some sort of agreement with me usually apologizing.


Eventually, this is ALL you will be doing. Every day.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

mxpx4182 said:


> I think I will see a psychologist. I have a little break between classes, so I'm looking up where they are in town.


MxPx, skill sets vary greatly among psychologists, as is true for the members of any profession. It therefore would be prudent to obtain a recommendation, e.g., by walking into the school's psychology department and speaking with the dept. chair or a professor. Don't be shy about asking for a recommendation. Older people (even professors) generally love giving advice to younger people. 

Alternatively, you could do a Google search for information about the psychologists in your area. Ideally, you want someone very experienced in diagnosing/treating BPD and other personality disorders. But, of course, your main objective is to see a psychologist, not to see the _perfect_ psychologist.


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

That was great advice. After class I headed to the school's Psychology Department and briefly described what was going on. They gave me a recommendation to a particular psychologist on staff and I just sent him an email to see about setting up an appointment.

My wife called me at about the same time asking if I could bring her lunch. I told her I wouldn't be able to this time. I felt guilty, because technically I could make time to do it, but I also felt good, because I shouldn't have to be bringing her food, or meeting her on her break for lunch every single time she works.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

There's some truth in that, in that you are enabling this. Read some articles or books on boundaries, and you'll be surprised at how few you have.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Not bringing her lunch will probably motivate her to think ahead next time. Maybe the two of you could fix your lunches together the night before. 

Are you going to be seeing the psychologist, too? You might find the support helpful.

You go to church, right? Can you get support from your minister, or just other husbands?


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

Actually, the psychologist was for me. I may take my wife after discussing things for a while and seeing where it goes. He hasn't emailed me back yet. I want to call, but I'm afraid my wife will ask me about the number. I may do it anyway if I don't get a reply by tomorrow.

We have been to a lot of counseling. We went to counseling after I came clean about my EA. It was helpful in a lot of ways but not helpful in others. It helped her forgive me and it helped me focus my attention on her better, and perhaps most importantly it humbled me. With that being said, we spent no time talking about her depression, talking about killing herself, believing she was dying or that she had genital herpes, her work related anxieties, or not finishing college like she said she would. She told me I had no right to complain after I had been complaining to and sexting another woman. This is true and I felt truly sick with myself and guilty, but it doesn't change a lot of the problems we are still dealing with. The pastor who married us, who had become more of a father to me than anything else, said that I was blessed that she didn't leave me. I feel so awful and I haven't spoken to him since the night I called him to talk to him, and I'm basically purposefully putting that relationship on hold indefinitely. One of the men from church (we had moved to this state only 4 months prior and were new) apparently did something similar but wouldn't say what. He was helpful in some ways, but I wasn't allowed to speak about other problems we are having because it was seen as just complaining and I shouldn't talk about anything without her here. To sum it up, most counselors, especially faith based tell us 2 things and leave it at that 1) I'm a horrible person and my wife is great to have stayed with me and 2) communicate and give it time.

I get that I was a ***** [email protected]#*( but it doesn't address any of the issues that existed well before I made such a horrible mistake. This is why I think it's best to see a psychologist. Also, I am talking to a few friends back home who I trust, including my brother who is also recently married. I hope to get a call from my good friend who is a psych nurse before my final class today.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

mxpx4182 said:


> I want to call, but I'm afraid my wife will ask me about the number.


Perhaps there is a pay phone somewhere in your city, maybe on campus. Or a classmate willing to lend you his phone for a few minutes for a local call.


> We went to counseling after I came clean about my EA. It was helpful in a lot of ways but not helpful in others.


IME, couples counseling is a total waste of time -- for the major issues -- if one party has strong BPD traits. A BPDer's issues go far beyond a simple lack of communication skills.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Really, without an evaluation by a psychologist, we don't know yet. She seems somewhat in touch with all the hurt she has experienced. She is able to talk about it. I am hoping that is a hopeful sign.

mx, don't feel guilty. Okay, you had the EA. You stopped it, you apologized, it's over. Let it go. Your wife is not perfect, either. Forgive yourself, forgive her, and just try to move forward. Not one of us is perfect, mx. Don't put yourself down.

Your feelings do matter. Ea in your past or not, you have a right to feel how you feel, and you have a right to express it.

And if you want to make a phone call, you make a phone call. She can deal with it. You have rights.

You have to have boundaries. You have to enforce them. It will probably make her feel safer with you to see you have firm boundaries. No wife wants to be able to walk all over her husband, not really, not in her heart of hearts.

But you can also explain what you are doing, and use active listening to help her deal with her feelings about them. Respect her, listen to her, but be firm about your own rights.

I am sorry you have not gotten the support from your church members that you have needed. Maybe it is good you are seeking support from friends and family.

You are not on an easy path. I am hoping you can keep going with her, and help her heal, as it seems you really do love her. 

But it is only fair to remind you that you are not trapped. You are staying of your own free will. This will be work, and you need to keep your eyes wide open to that. You could stop all this if you wanted to. 

I just think you need to own the decision you are making, to stay. I think it could change your mindset from guilt and resentment (if you are feeling any) to proactivity and leadership.

Did you contact Sam Ruck at all (from that DID blog I sent you the link to)? He is a very nice, very devoted husband who has had extremely little support for the work he has done with his wife. He stayed because he loved her and believed in her and their marriage, and because of his faith. He really is inspiring, and I am sure he could relate to your frustrations and lack of support. Just keep him in mind as a resource.

Best of luck. Let us know if you start a blog.


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

The picture has become even clearer after talking with my friend who is a Psych Nurse. He told me that the type of actions she has had often are the type which get people in to psych ward care. He told me that spitting and clawing were very common among teenage girl patients with disorders. 

The psychologist wrote me back and said we should talk on the phone first to get an idea of what's going on, so I'm going to call during office hours tomorrow.

I'm actually starting to consider getting the marriage annulled. I do love my wife, but there is a lot wrong that I can't fix, and it would be irresponsible of me to have children with her. I don't want to make any rash decisions however, so I'm going to talk to the psychologist, my brother, and get some more information first.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I'm sorry it has come to this, but I understand. Best of luck, whatever you do.


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

Oh, and I did look into that site you sent me. I read a lot. I haven't made any decision yet, I'm just saying I'm thinking about it.

Today she was supposed to start volunteering at the daycare, but when she got home she just laid in bed with that 1000 mile stare look on her face. I asked her if she wanted me to take her to the daycare 3x before she answered. She just shook her head and continued to stare.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

mxpx4182 said:


> The psychologist wrote me back and said we should talk on the phone first to get an idea of what's going on, so I'm going to call during office hours tomorrow.


MxPx, thanks for giving us another update. Am glad to hear the psych responded so quickly and is making time to talk with you during his office hours. Of course, he will not be able to give you a formal diagnosis without actually seeing her. What he can do, however, is to say something like "It sure sounds to me like you're dealing with...."


> I'm actually starting to consider getting the marriage annulled.


If it comes to that, and if the psych says she is exhibiting strong symptoms of BPD or another Cluster B disorder, I suggest you read _Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist._ I mention this book because, with BPDers and NPDers, the divorce process typically gets very nasty very quickly. My exW, for example, had me arrested on a bogus charge and thrown into jail for three days.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

mx, I think you have grounds for an annulment. If she was not mentally capable of undertaking the marriage commitment at the time of the vows, you're good for an annulment.

But you have to be able to live with your conscience.

She needs a lot of help. Only a man who truly loves her is going to be able to help her. And only you know if you love her that much.

My dh would have loved me that much. But he is probably pretty rare.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

jld said:


> Only a man who truly loves her is going to be able to help her. And only you know if you love her that much.


Sadly, JLD, all the love in the world won't help her if she has strong BPD traits. Trying to heal a BPDer by loving her would be as foolish as trying to heal a burn patient by hugging him.

The reason is that BPDers have a great fear of engulfment that makes it painful for them to experience the intimacy that goes hand in hand with being loved. This means that you will hurt a BPDer by drawing close (thus triggering her _engulfment_ fear) and hurt her just as much when you back away (thus triggering her _abandonment _fear). 

This is why a BPDer marriage is a lose-lose situation for both partners -- unless the BPDer is self-motivated to work hard for many years in intensive therapy to heal herself, an outcome that is very rare. And this is why many respondents in this thread have been urging MxPx to see a psychologist, on his own, to find out what it is he is dealing with.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Uptown said:


> Sadly, JLD, all the love in the world won't help her if she has strong BPD traits. Trying to heal a BPDer by loving her would be as foolish as trying to heal a burn patient by hugging him.
> 
> The reason is that BPDers have a great fear of engulfment that makes it painful for them to experience the intimacy that goes hand in hand with being loved. This means that you will hurt a BPDer by drawing close (thus triggering her _engulfment_ fear) and hurt her just as much when you back away (thus triggering her _abandonment _fear).
> 
> This is why a BPDer marriage is a lose-lose situation for both partners -- unless the BPDer is self-motivated to work hard for many years in intensive therapy to heal herself, an outcome that is very rare. And this is why many respondents in this thread have been urging MxPx to see a psychologist, on his own, to find out what it is he is dealing with.




Uptown, you know way more about this than I ever could. But I would like to believe that there is always hope, if we can just persist. Maybe therapies will be developed in the future that we can only imagine today.

I do want to read more about attachment theory. Maybe it is not enough when, as you said, BPD is strong. But I find its possibilities intriguing.

Btw, what does r/s mean?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

jld said:


> I would like to believe that there is always hope, if we can just persist.


Offering hope can be a wonderful message for most couples experiencing r/s problems. It is a *disastrous* message, however, for any young person who is dating, engaged, or married to a BPDer. Typically, the only young people who will put up with the controlling behavior and verbal abuse are excessive caregivers like me. 

Sadly, these young caregivers typically will hold on forever, which means they will waste the prime of their lives in a futile attempt to heal the BPDers with their love. What usually happens, then, is that the BPDers grow increasingly resentful each year of the caregiver's inability to make her happy. And she grows increasingly fearful of abandonment as she sees her body aging. So the BPDers typically divorce the caregivers after about 15 years, as my exW did to me.


> I do want to read more about attachment theory. Maybe it is not enough when, as you said, BPD is strong. But I find its possibilities intriguing.


No, it is not enough, JLD. My understanding is that the "attachment disorders" described in the diagnostic manual are used only to diagnose and treat young children. I've never seen such disorders used to describe adults. By the time a person reaches 18, their personalities are fully formed and the hormone surge is largely behind them. 

Hence, at that point, therapists start using the adult disorders (e.g., BPD, NPD, and other PDs) to describe patterns of behavior that include many other symptoms in addition to the attachment problem. Therapists generally are loath to discuss those other symptoms as issues for children because it is perfectly _normal_ for young children to behave 24/7 like BPDers and to exhibit narcissistic traits. Indeed, this is why BPDers are said to be so child-like in their emotional development. The lack of attachment seen in some young children, however, is not normal. 

My point, then, is that BPDers have many more issues than the inability to form lasting attachments. They need to learn, e.g. how to do self soothing, how to control their emotions, how to love themselves, how to avoid black-white thinking, and how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as "facts." 


> Btw, what does r/s mean?


"R/S" means I'm too lazy to type out "relationship." Sorry about that.


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

JLD, you have a great husband. Unfortunately, I am not as great. I have no children to worry about hurting in this situation, and I have no idea how long it would take for my wife to get out of this.

What Uptown said about self motivation strikes a chord in other areas of our relationship as well. I have no idea how long it would take her to emotionally get beyond this, or to get her degree, etc. She's 24 and has about 2 semesters worth of college done after probably 4 years of off and on school. If someone can't help themselves then it is going to be difficult for someone else to help them. My wife brought up the idea of volunteering at a daycare, which was great. We drove around looking for one and didn't find any. She didn't want to go out again after I had written down addresses, but I pushed her to, and she was excited once she found one to her liking. She was supposed to go in for her first day of work today, but instead laid in bed after work and wouldn't get up or say anything other than shaking her head no. I could have given her a pep talk or asked her what's wrong or pushed her to do it, but I asked myself, "what's the point?" I can't be doing this our whole marriage. I'm at the library now after my last class, kind of dreading going home. I didn't pay her bills while we were engaged, pay for the beautiful wedding, pay for some of he bridesmaids' and families hotel stay, pay off most of her student loans, and drive her around everywhere because she refuses to drive anymore just for this. I want my life back.

I wonder if I would need an official diagnosis for an annulment or if the symptoms are good enough. Also I wonder if both of us have to be present, because we were married in a state 12 hours away from here. *edit* it looks like getting an annulment in North Carolina is close to impossible unless you are committing incest or were already married. Damn.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Do not tell her until you are absolutely sure. Are you planning to have her go back to her parents' house?

First the divorce, then the annulment. I think if you are willing to pay the annulment fee, you will get it.

I feel bad for you and bad for her.

Next time, live with the woman before you get married. Then you will really know what you are getting into. Think a couple years of living together before marriage.

I hope this will not be too messy.

Have you gotten IRL counsel yet? Friends, family, etc.? Are you still going to see the psychologist?

And next time, look beyond the packaging, okay? This has cost you and is going to cost you more. And who knows how she and her family are going to react.

Very best of luck, mx.

And I hope Uptown weighs in on this.

And obviously: No sex. You're done. Do not risk getting her pregnant.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Honestly, she sounds like someone who will best be cared for by her parents. I'm not telling you to dump her cos she's too much trouble, rather that this sounds serious enough that you won't be ABLE to help her, not in the right way.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

If the parents "cared" for her up to getting married I think the results speak for themselves... 

She needs very competent care and support and her parents will either let her coast for a year or two before jettisoning her or will have nothing to do with her from the start.

Annulment may sound good but as the premarital relationship was mostly long distance a lot of due diligence was not done. Is that grounds for annulment? I am not certain.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Honestly, John, I have heard of people getting annulments in all kinds of situations, as long as they are willing to pay the fee.

mx, I can't tell you what a crisis of conscience I have had since advising, or at least supporting, the idea of your divorce last night. Honestly, I almost prayed about it.

I hold marriage in pretty high regard. I consider my own absolutely sacred. 

But I hear resentment in your voice, not love. And I don't think that is good for her, either. I am sure she feels it from you, too.

I feel bad for these gals with BPD. I knew a woman once whose husband ran a homeless shelter. She told me it was full of women no one cared about. That has never left my mind.

But you are young and I am not sure that you should have to shoulder this. If you really loved her and wanted to be with her, it would be one thing. But if so early on you already had an EA, that is a bad sign. Your needs were not being met, and she may never be able to meet them, or not for a long time.

So it is with a heavy heart that I continue to support the idea of your divorce. I hope you can manage this with utmost compassion for your dear wife. And I truly hope she is dear to someone. She will need it.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Resentment should be a call for positive change first, not divorce. 

Without intervention she may be one more person in a shelter. Not a good outcome.

OP is in grad school so far. Give it graduation + 1 year of real world income and resources. If it works good, of not they tried together at least. That would be my suggestion. 

Every relationship has resentments. It's what we do with them. My wife has to be reminded of what some very basic human traits are several times per hour (i.e. do not raise your voice like a bad TV commercial if you don't like what you're hearing)... Or that random ingredients in the slow cooker often result in in edible food. You take the good and the not so good.


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## notperfectanymore (Mar 1, 2012)

Please get divorced/annulled and chalk it up to life experience. Those who have not lived it do not understand. I have lived with it...I am sorry you are here. Praying for you. Be sure to take care of YOU....BPDers do a number on the mentality of those who try to caregive, trust me, been there. Uptown knows of what he speaks....


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

john117 said:


> Resentment should be a call for positive change first, not divorce.
> 
> Without intervention she may be one more person in a shelter. Not a good outcome.
> 
> ...


But with the violence he is experiencing, John? Is it reasonable to encourage him to hold on?

I know you are a mental health professional. I do respect your opinion.


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

Last night took an almost serious turn.

I came back from the Library and she was lying on the bed with the lights out. The room had actually been cleaned. Everything was quiet for about 5 minutes and then she softly mumbled something I couldn't understand. After the third time I understood what she was saying, something about should she fly home. I asked what she was thinking and why and then we discussed her flying home to Minnesota from Mississippi. It got serious to the point of her saying she wanted to leave tonight, immediately, but 5 minutes later we were talking about something else and she didn't respond when I asked her if she wanted me to take her to the airport. I said maybe she needed some time apart and to see good friends and family. After that I went to go take a shower.

She ended up coming in the bathroom and asked me if we should get a divorce. I told her that I think we just need to give it some time, if she wants to fly home that's a good thing, but let's not make any big decisions right now, just give it time. Then she pressed harder asking again do you think we should get a divorce - very similar to "Were you more attracted to me at 145 than now" and eventually after about 5 minutes I said "Not now, give it time, and if we can't fix it then maybe." She told me that's all she needed to know and that a maybe meant a yes. I said no, that's not what I meant and then I asked her what she thought. She wouldn't answer what she thought and kept saying that she asked me first and that I was telling her I wanted a divorce. Then she kept telling me to tell her that I didn't want her anymore and that would be it. Which I refused to do.

I told her that she was asking questions in such a manner as to get that answer from me no matter what I really thought and then asked her if there was something I could say that would mean something else, to which she responded "Yes, but you've already given me your answer." Then she talked about how I cheated and how now I just want to leave my mess behind for someone else to clean up and that I think I'm off the hook just because I don't like that she's sad all the time. I told her that it wasn't normal to do the things that she does and that it's seriously unhealthy to which she responded, it's also not normal to cheat. Then she told me that I never loved her and that all she ever wanted was for me to love her as she is and not want her to be someone else, and that she can't trust me to be faithful, and she can't trust herself to be emotionally stable. 

Somewhere in the mix she said she'd probably just kill herself. She said this multiple times. She also asked me to kill her over and over again. Then somehow we moved beyond this.

Then she entertained a thought to which I never believed I'd hear from her. She said that maybe she could see herself marrying someone else one day. Maybe she could have kids with someone else. This was a complete shock to me, because one of our biggest fights had been over whether or not I would ever get remarried if she ever died. She brought that subject up a lot in the past and I told her that I hadn't thought about it and that I didn't want to think about her dying but I might get remarried eventually maybe. She interpreted that as betrayal and cried and was seriously upset that I could ever even possibly think of being with someone else. We had this fight multiple times before and after my EA to which eventually I just said "No, I wouldn't want to get remarried," which is a lie I said just to keep the peace. I never knew that anyone could feel so strongly about someone getting remarried after they died.

She told me that when she feels hurt and when she's not touched by me she pushes my buttons to get a response to see if I'll love her or to see my reaction. In my head I was thinking, "well this makes it difficult then to determine which of your actions are genuine and which are just to see how I'll react."

A lot of other things were said which I don't remember, but I tried to deescalate the situation because I didn't want to turn this into a serious messy divorce fight and end up spending a thousand dollars on a last minute plane ticket without giving it some time to talk to the psychologist, maybe get some more counseling, and come up with a plan of action. We ended up falling asleep with me holding her and playing with her hair. Now that I understand that the 1 year deadline for an annulment doesn't really apply, that getting an annulment is more difficult than I initially thought, and that we don't have to get a divorce/annulment in the state we got married in, but could do it where we reside or where one of us resides, I've decided to give it more time and gather as much information as possible. I have to leave for work for a month this summer after the school semester is over. If things are still bad by then I think it would be a good time to separate. In the mean time, I'm not going to play daddy. I will be nice and loving and spend time with her, but I'm not going to encourage her to work at the daycare, or pack her lunches, or help her/encourage her with math.

In regards to her family situation. Her father passed away right before her 9th birthday. I thought that she had a good relationship with her father despite her parents not living together or ever being married, but apparently she only remembers seeing him 3 or 4 times. Her mother was married before she met her father and divorced her fire and brimstone preacher husband for physical abuse. Her stepfather told her he loved her but she was always left alone at home when her stepfather took her siblings places. Her mom became a hoarder after the divorce, before my wife was born. I've been to their trailer twice and it's not as bad as on the show "hoarders, buried alive," but it is super packed with all sorts of stuff and it was pretty messy. During my last visit I tried to fix their shower head - which was giving off no pressure and was just dripping - but my wife (fiancee at the time) wouldn't let me. She also wouldn't let me fix her door. Her reasons were that her family would just break them again and so it was useless to try to fix them. I was sad and had been looking forward to fixing up the house for them. 

My BiL is a great guy, he paid his way through Bible school while working at McDonalds and having cancer like 3x. He's 31. At the same time, he's always sick off and on and doesn't like making his mom upset (I don't think he even thinks about it) so he doesn't do things like fix things up around the house or take his mom for a walk and exercise daily. My mother in law, who is 61 is very overweight and previously had a heart attack. Recently the doctors told her that things don't look good for her. She called my sister in law crying and told her that she has no motivation to take care of her body and exercise. It bothers me that my BiL, who lives at home, won't take her out for exercise daily. My wife did when she was living at home. When my mother in law asked my wife to start help paying family bills (either mortgage or groceries or something) my wife (GF at the time or maybe this was before that) broke down crying so my MiL just dropped the idea. I'm pretty sure my MiL has never made over $22,000 a year in her life. My wife tells me about stories where her mom would get paid and they'd all go buy a bunch of junk food and feast for 3 days and then would be starving until the next paycheck. I could go on about her family. They are very loving, but there's also a lot of issues.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Just keep up the active listening. Just reflect it back to her when she demands answers.

And it's good that you are setting boundaries. It is being true to yourself.

And it is good that divorce is not a shocking idea to her, and that she can imagine being with someone else. Divorce is probably a terrible fear of hers, and she is trying to face it. But maybe she is not happy with you, either, and would like to be with someone she could be happy with someday.

What attracted you to her again? Look carefully at this.

I hope John will be along soon to comment.

Her home life sounds so sad. Poor girl.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> But with the violence he is experiencing, John? Is it reasonable to encourage him to hold on?
> 
> 
> 
> I know you are a mental health professional. I do respect your opinion.



Well, violence here is simply a way for her to vent frustration. Not the kind that makes one fear for their safety. My wife's cooking is far more dangerous :lol:

Btw I'm a cognitive psychologist which is generally related to how people think in problem solving, develop tasks, or interacting with things or making decisions. A lot more narrow focused than clinical or behavioral. The behavioral people were all in the other side of the building. They were the ones destined to make more money, while we are content in figuring our how people interact with their appliances


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> I could go on about her family. They are very loving, but there's also a lot of issues.


Wow, no kidding. Not sure sending her home would do any good.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

If she threatens to kill herself, maybe you should call 911.


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

jld said:


> What attracted you to her again? Look carefully at this.
> 
> I hope John will be along soon to comment.
> 
> Her home life sounds so sad. Poor girl.




We initially met through a blogging site. I loved how deeply she felt about things and I love the way she wrote and what she was into. The same can be said for how she felt about me. In fact, she commented, "If it's at all possible to meet your soul mate on a site like this, I'm calling dibs." The idea of absolute destiny with one person has been a strong belief with her as long as I've known her. I thought that too back in highschool, but after my first gf and I permanently split (I was 16-20 during the relationship) I started doubting the idea, since we had said things like "I love you forever" and started questioning what love really meant. For example, you can love someone who isn't good for you and so you shouldn't be together. It doesn't mean you love them any less. There's a lot of other things that we didn't agree on initially. She wanted to wait until marriage to kiss, I did not. This was interesting because she had sex with multiple guys in highschool, where as I hadn't had sex yet. She believed that they drank grape juice in the Bible until I eventually showed her that juice ferments rather quickly, that several of the words used for juice or wine describe fermentation (my cousin teaches Greek), etc. Now she likes wine. We broke up multiple times during dating because I was tired of doing long distance and because I didn't feel things for her in person as much as I did over the phone, there usually wasn't that spark. But I felt guilty and like I was too harsh and I also missed talking to her after that.

But anyway, back to what attracted me to her. She was a deep thinker about social issues, she was a Christian, she was 5'8 about 145, with an hour glass frame and I had no idea if she was Filipino, Italian, Brazilian, Black, or anything by her profile picture. She was equally pretty when we met in person. She also has a great sense of humor. She's pretty goofy. For instance, the first time she met my sister she asked if she could dress her up and put make up on her to look like a man and then go on chat roulette together. My sister thought it was a crazy idea but also strangely fun. I liked the fact that she got along so well with my family and still does. My family loves her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

What do your parents think you should do? Have you talked with them?

I asked what attracted you, because if you do split, you want to learn from this experience, like where you went wrong and what you would do differently next time.


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## notperfectanymore (Mar 1, 2012)

PLEASE call 911 then next time she threatens suicide. It is what you are SUPPOSED to do....you can't be responsible for that...and then it goes on record for you....


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

I think the pretty obvious answer for "what have I learned" is to actually spend a long time with someone in person first before getting engaged. By that I mean be local. I used to think that my primary love language was quality time, but that was only because you want to spend every second with someone when you have to wait 4 months to see them. Really get to know somebody first. See how they interact with their friends on a day to day basis, not just when you are going out to meet their friends for the first time.

Well, I have to go home for lunch eventually and see my wife who is off work today. I've got knots in my stomach, but it must be done. Then I have class again after that. Hopefully lunch isn't too awkward. 

The psychologist hasn't called me back yet. I left him my number on his voice mail.


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## SolidSnake (Dec 6, 2011)

mxpx4182 said:


> Thanks guys. I have been doing the active listening. I also put together a spreadsheet on excel that showed all of our expenses for each month through the end of May vs our income dependent upon how many hours she works/wk. Below that I had the difference, whether positive money in the bank account or negative (debt). 28 hours/wk is the breaking point. which I don't think is too much to ask since she's not in school (I'd prefer more than 28, but perhaps we could compromise at 30). She was upset and told me that if she works more then our relationship will suffer because we won't have much time together. I'm already gone 1-2 weekends a month, plus an overloaded semester's work of worth, and my campus job; so I'm not so sure how that really adds up. If I'm going to be gone a lot she might as well work more. She also said she wasn't angry but she was afraid that if she works more I'll be upset because the house won't be as clean.
> 
> Which brings us to the other issue I mentioned but never really touched on, domestic help. Here's the day's events so far: Wake up at 8, have sex, then read together for 30 minutes. Take a shower. She put some towels in the washer and then got some cereal and went upstairs to watch a weight loss documentary. I cleaned up all the dirty dishes lying around the house, including 3 cups and a coffee mug from our bedroom - none of which were from me - and wash them. There were more dishes to be done, so I cleaned those, including our juicer which hadn't been cleaned in 3 days and was beginning to smell like sauerkraut. Then I put the towels in the dryer and started a load of clothes in the washer, which I had picked up from all over our bedroom floor. One pair of shorts were mine, the rest of the clothes were hers. Then I started cooking some meals to put in the freezer for the rest of the week since this is my first week back of school. At that point my wife couldn't find her work pants.
> 
> ...


What? She hyperventilated because you put her pants in the dryer? Why are you doing everything for her, including the majority of the chores? Your wife needs to put on her big girl panties and act like an adult. She won't do that if you are always there to do everything for her. She doesn't have to be self reliant because you are doing too much for her. 

Either that it she is mentally ill. Either way you have a problem. 

Im not you should have paid her student loans either, since that was debt that she brought into the relationship, not that you accrued together, but its too late now. 

Would your wife consider therapy? It seems like she has a lot of pyschological and maturity issues that therapy could help her resolve. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

Went home for lunch and she apologized to me and told me she would be willing to change if I never thought about divorce again. This was kind of weird because she was the one who brought it up last night. I ignored answering the question and asked what she wanted to change. She told me she wanted to stop acting out so much when she was upset. Then we cuddled some and spent some time together.

It's very difficult for me to swing back and forth like this. She told me that when she said she wanted to fly home what she really wanted was a hug. It's how she used to act to her mom because her mom wouldn't respond so she'd yell more severe and more severe things at her to get attention. She said she wants to stop doing this. That is great, but when she says fly home I hear "fly home" and I think "fly home" not, "I need to hug her." When I hear her say "divorce," I don't think "I need to reaffirm my love for her," I hear, "divorce." It's really difficult to swing back mentally to committing myself all to her when we talk about such serious things and when she threatens such serious things. I basically have to fall in love with my wife over again, because right now I'm kind of on the defensive, even if she's being sweet and apologizing.

Still waiting for the psychologist to call back.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Do you think, while you wait for the psychologist to get back to you, that you should consider john117's advice?

He doesn't seem too worried about the whole thing, and thinks you should give it a year. What do you think of that idea?


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

I'm going to give it until the end of May when I go off for work and she goes back home for a month. I hate to say this but I already feel like I'm starting to be divorced in my mind. It's so hard not to feel rash about this, but it keeps swinging back and forth, and like I said, when she says "fly home," I hear "fly home" not "I need a hug" and when she says "divorce" I don't hear "reaffirm your love to me," I hear, "divorce." And this is not the first time this has happened. She said things like that about a month into our marriage, but today she just explained what she actually meant, or supposedly meant.

I am going to try to treat her right. We will see. I don't expect my attitude to change over night, but through positive experiences, which hopefully we will have. But I have to admit that last night I laid in bed thinking about having a year or more off to myself committing it to being a better me, graduating, and getting a career job, and then finally finding someone stable and not emotionally volatile who was a lot of fun to be with. It's a bad thought I know. I have knots in my stomach.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I think in the meantime, you should tell her that, for HER benefit, you're not going to jump to respond any more because it's not healthy, and if she wants something specifically, she has to specifically ask for it. You can practice that with her, once a day, til it feels more comfortable. And when she calls in a tizzy next time, remind her that you said you weren't going to jump to respond, and you'll see her when you get off work. Kind of baby-level tough love.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

mxpx4182 said:


> She said she'd probably just kill herself. She said this multiple times. She also asked me to kill her over and over again.


If she is a BPDer, the suicide threats are to be expected. Although most BPDers are high functioning, they occasionally will become so stressed or depressed that they slip into a low-functioning state for a few hours or even a few days. This is evident when they will turn their anger inwards on themselves instead of outward on their mates. When that happens, they will say things like "I am useless," "You are better off without me," or "I just want to die."

My BPDer exW, for example, would go through low periods for a day or two at least once a year. The first time it happened, she quietly put her coat on and left our apartment -- walking to a nearby bridge that hangs about 70 feet above the road below, which is in a ravine. She walked slowly, knowing all the while that I was following protectively behind her. She did this on three occasions but, when I mustered up the courage NOT to follow her, she stopped going to the bridge.

Instead, she started going to the nearest subway station, where she would call me from the platform and tell me that she was going to jump in front of the next train. She always made the call just as a train was pulling into the station so I could hear that she really was standing on the loading platform. Then she would hang up. 

Of course, I ran the full five blocks to the station -- and did so on two occasions. On the third occasion, I stopped running down there. So she stopped going to the subway station too. As you already know, choosing to do _nothing_ is a very scary, harrowing experience because you never know what is going to happen -- even though you figure she very likely is just trying to manipulate you with her threats. I therefore agree with NotPerfect and Turnera that the best response is to call 9-1-1 so you have a record of the event and so there is a logical consequence that occurs every time she threatens suicide.


> She commented, "If it's at all possible to meet your soul mate on a site like this, I'm calling dibs."


BPDers typically idealize their new lovers to such an extent that they are convinced they've met their "soul mate." Moreover, nearly every one of the "Non" partners I've communicated with feels the same way. The reason is that a BPDer, having little sense of who she is, has gone through life emulating the characteristics of important people in her life. When she is infatuated with a new lover, she will pull out all the stops and so perfectly mirror his personality and preferences that BOTH of them will be convinced they are soul mates.


> I never knew that anyone could feel so strongly about someone getting remarried after they died.


If she is a BPDer, she has a fear that she could love you for 30 years and then -- on her death -- you would COMPLETELY forget about her when marrying another woman. BPDers think you are capable of such a thing only because they have very little sense of "object constancy." Because a BPDer is so unstable herself, she believes your feelings toward her can greatly change from day to day. 

This would be evident, for example, when she fears that you have started to lose connection with her whenever you travel out of town. This is why BPDers don't handle physical separation very well once you've gotten married and the infatuation has ended. And, given that she may get upset when being away from you for only a week, it is not difficult to imagine how threatening it is for her to think of being away from you permanently, as occurs with a death.

We all have to learn to perceive object constancy -- starting right after our birth. The first lesson in object constancy is the realization that mother doesn't cease to exist when she moves out of our sight. The next lesson is learning that mother doesn't vanish when she's left the room and we can't hear her. And so on. Of course, BPDers learn those basic lessons but they don't have the opportunity to develop a mature sense of object constancy with regard to other peoples' personalities, feelings, and intentions. The result is that a BPDer may think you are adorable one minute and Adolph Hitler the next -- based solely on a minor thing you say or do. 


> She told me that when she feels hurt and when she's not touched by me she pushes my buttons to get a response to see if I'll love her or to see my reaction.


This is called "$h!t testing." If she is a BPDer, she will never believe you truly love her because, deep down, she's convinced she is unlovable. Until she learns how to love herself, she will never believe you love her. Instead, she will believe that you THINK you love her but, when you eventually discover how empty she is inside, you will abandon her. Similarly, until she learns to trust herself, she will be incapable of truly trusting you.

You therefore will be subject to an endless series of tests where, typically, she will say or do something abusive to you to see how you respond. The way it works is that, whenever you pass her very latest test, she will remain convinced that you really don't love her. That never changes. The only thing that does change, then, is that the hoop will be raised a little higher for you to jump through on your next test. This is one reason that BPDers tend to get more and more abusive as the years go by.


> In my head I was thinking, "well this makes it difficult then to determine which of your actions are genuine and which are just to see how I'll react."


"Difficult" is an understatement -- if she is a BPDer. As I noted earlier, BPDers are notorious for making their care-giving partners feel like they may be losing their minds.


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## notperfectanymore (Mar 1, 2012)

Uptown said:


> "Difficult" is an understatement -- if she is a BPDer. As I noted earlier, BPDers are notorious for making their care-giving partners feel like they may be losing their minds.


I have been off the crazy train for almost 3 years now...and STILL not 100% sane....TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF! We are here for you, to remind you that you AREN'T crazy.


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

So, some updates. 

I left this forum for a while because things took a change and I wanted to see if it was real. My wife has been helping out around the house much much more. Sometimes she tells me not to take her to work in the morning, and that she'd rather walk so that I can get extra sleep on days I don't have to wake up at 5. She's also laid off the hypochondriac tendencies and suicidal threats for the time being. She opened up to me about how and why she said what she said and how it was a pattern for her growing up to get a reaction out of her mom. So all of that is good. She has also been crying less, maybe 2 or 3 times a week instead of every day.

I am still waiting for some more initiative on the work front. The daycare said they'd need to see a copy of her GED for her to volunteer. It ended at that. I don't know if I should be upset or not that she hasn't pursued this. 

She's still constantly complaining about her work, and with some good reason. They put the schedule out a day before the work week started. The owner made one of the employees the manager, but didn't announce it to everyone. Recently, however, things have gotten a lot worse. My wife asked for weekends off so that we can be together, since most weekdays I have to be up at 5 and don't finish class/work til 9. The new manager initially said that wouldn't be a problem, that the 2 of them should get weekends off since everyone else is a college student. That sounded about right to me, as a friend of mine also said that he and all the other students have to work weekends at Wal Mart while the full time staff work their hours m-f. My wife got her schedule, 1 day before the work week started, and saw that she was working Saturday. Naturally she brought this to the manager's attention. The manager said at if she didn't want to work weekends she could find a new job! My wife, the manager, and the owner had a meeting about this today and they said she would have to work weekends. My wife broke down crying. 

Prior to the meeting the manager was apparently very angry with her and said that my wife was being too demanding. Recently the store hired a new employee who isn't going to work weekends. The owner said they hired him because he's ripped and well liked at the gym, and so it'll be great marketing for smoothies there. The manager pointed out that this guy has a degree, which really hurt my wife. I pointed out that having a degree has nothing to do with making smoothies, even if it's a degree in nutrition. She feels "stabbed in the back" and "betrayed" and hasn't stopped crying this evening. 

I feel so torn. On the one hand I was furious at hearing how her business had said one thing and then done another and acted like it was her fault. On the other, I'm sick of my wife complaining about problems at this job and am ready for her to get a new job. To her credit she did apply at a coffee shop, but they haven't called her back. I tried comforting her and she calmed down for the most part. I suggested that we work on her resume at the library and look for jobs Friday. She was against this idea initially but then went with it. We got to school and she wouldn't get out of the car so I held her and talked to her. Then she got out of the car, but after about 20 yards stopped and started crying and said she didn't want to do this or be around people right now, so I took her home. 

I wanted to work on the resume tonight because I feel like we always put off things like this, and I wanted to do something positive instead of dwelling on the hurt. I understand wanting to talk about your feelings and being hurt, but we go through this to some extent almost every day after work. *Am I being too male in wanting to solve the problem?* I feel like if she's had issues with this place since last May then maybe it's time to get serious about getting a new job, especially now. *Am I being insensitive to the situation?*

All this stress at her work stresses me out. I spend my time comforting her and or listening to her complain about problems at work. She said before that talking about problems isn't always complaining, and that women just like to talk through problems. Maybe that's true, it probably is, but I just feel like this is excessive. I have no problem listening, but I'm just so tired of hearing it every day, and now this. I have to wake up at 5 for ROTC tomorrow, but I'm just so wound up. Everything is bleeding over into my schedule. I don't know if I should be doing homework, comforting my wife, working on her resume, or working off the stress.

Is this just a case of men's reaction to things vs women's?
What would you do?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

So divorce is off the menu right now? Have you talked to her mom about the situation? Your parents?


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

Yeah, I'm not thinking about divorce right now. It is way more involved than I thought it would be and she's been a lot better the past month which makes me think she doesn't have some sort of mental illness, she just had a rough childhood. I do love her.

Talking to her mom would solve absolutely nothing. I love her mom, but her mom is the primary reason she's like this. I won't talk to my parents because she would feel betrayed and I would feel both wrong and embarrassed. She would pretty much feel betrayed no matter who I talked to. If I talked to anybody it'd be her oldest sister, who she's closest to.

I just want to know what to make of all of this. Certainly something is messed up at her work, right? Is that normal? Is she taking it to hard? Is this a normal reaction? Am I being too critical?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

You know, mx, female emotions can be strong and chaotic. Mine are. 

I think you just need to decide if you can handle her, and if you love her. A month ago it did not sound like you did. It could be that was the worst of her, but remember, that could come back. Are you ready for that? How are you going to deal with it?


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## mxpx4182 (Jan 7, 2014)

I do love her, and I think it would be foolish for me to pursue a divorce at this time. The wise thing to do is to give that time.

This is a much smaller issue than threats of suicide. With that being said, it is still an issue, which is why I'm seeking to understand it. I'm trying to figure out what to do in this situation and how I should treat my wife. Am I being too harsh? Maybe that is uber male of me, but again, she's had complaints about work for 8 months now, so I think maybe my rush to understand and act is not too brash after all.

I think what I'm going to do is go emotionally eat and then see if my wife wants to go for a walk or something and skip PT in the morning. Then tomorrow I'll have slept on it, and I'll come back for some ideas.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I'm sure you're doing fine.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mxpx4182 said:


> she's been a lot better the past month which makes me think she doesn't have some sort of mental illness


You're wrong. She is not normal. She needs help. Lots of it.

I'm not saying she's a bad person; please don't think that. I'm saying she needs help.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

mxpx4182 said:


> Certainly something is messed up at her work, right? Is that normal?


I've been working for 35 years. I've seen all kinds of people. I've seen messed up people and I've seen how companies react to messed up people. SOMETHING about your wife has struck her company the wrong way. It's not the company. It's your wife. Don't go blaming them for not wanting to deal with your wife, who you KNOW is a mess to deal with.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

mxpx4182 said:


> She's been a lot better the past month which makes me think she doesn't have some sort of mental illness, she just had a rough childhood.


MxPx, I agree with Turnera that you have been describing serious warning signs. Just three weeks ago you were complaining about your W's repeated suicide threats and how a Psych Nurse had told you that _"the type of actions she has had often are the type which get people in to psych ward care. He told me that spitting and clawing were very common among teenage girl patients with disorders."_

If your W is emotionally unstable, a three-week improvement means little or nothing. With unstable people (e.g., my BPDer exW), such improvements are simply the upswing on the endless roller coaster ride. I therefore again suggest you see a clinical psychologist for a visit or two all by yourself. In that regard, what happened with the school psychologist you contacted last month? On 1/21, you said you had emailed him and he asked you to call him during normal business hours because he wanted to speak with you by phone before setting up an appointment. Did you follow through and talk with him by phone?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I agree with turnera and Uptown, mx, that your wife needs counseling. I am sorry I did not offer that advice.


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## AliceA (Jul 29, 2010)

Even if she doesn't have a specific disorder, she sounds like she's not coping at all well with the normal problems life will throw at us. There'll always be problems popping up, that will not change, therefore it's your wife's ability to deal with problems that needs to change/improve.

As for the job, if she's doing things like crying in front of people when she doesn't get her way, she's just going to attract a lot of disdain from her colleagues and bosses. That is not good.

As for her saying it's normal for women to vent, that they need to talk about their issues, yes, but generally, for a healthy minded individual, after they vent they go through options to improve their situation. Constant venting and doing nothing to help yourself is not healthy, and all it does is create a loop of recurring negative thoughts that sucks all the energy out of the people around you. I can understand why you're sick of hearing it.


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## SolidSnake (Dec 6, 2011)

I would say keep watching before you do anything. It may be that she needs therapy, but to assume this isn't a permanent change is premature. People can change. For me, just taking 4000 IUs if vitamin D in winter makes me so much less emotional and more optimistic. Check that its not a similar nutritional issue with her and keep seeing what happens with her behavior.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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