# Handled H's disrespect as well as I could, at the end of my rope. Men, help!!!



## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I'll keep this brief. Need to know how to go from here. 

I'm out of town for 2 weeks, with my mom and grandmother. G is having health problems. Procedure tomorrow. I'm here helping with things.

H will drive down to my parents' house for Easter. That's when we will see each other next.

Tonight, he came for dinner. 1.5 hour drive.

During dinner: lots of conversation, talking. 
I didn't realize he was trying to make a point. I started to speak, to say something on his behalf.
He snapped rudely, "can I FINISH?"
I said "honey, I was trying to say something nice..." then got up and started clearing dishes.

I wasn't happy, and gave him a look that indicated this. No words.
He loudly reacted "oh you're going to be upset now? Really??"
I calmly told him we'll talk about this later.

It happened again.
I said to him "I didn't even say anything." 
he stood up and decided to storm out.

I walked him to his car.
Asked him why he was so pissed.
He accused me of doing "the exact same thing!" before dinner.
It wasn't quite the same, but I apologized if I had come across that way.
I suggested he drive around for 20 minutes then come back.
(reminded him our friend, who was visiting, is moving in a month.)

he refused. Drove away, drove home.
He texted to say "good night honey. Sleep well. I love you."

how did I handle this?
How do I effectively set boundaries with him and have them respected by him?

I'm sick of getting blamed for his every outburst, emotion, and boycott.
I'm sick of him manipulating everything so I'm the evil psycho and he's the longsuffering saint. 
That's bull****.

What do I do????
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

It sounds like this a repeated problem.From my perspective on your story it sounds as if youmight do this constantly. He may be feeling that you are always correcting him while he speaks. The second part with the look was a "How is she going to be pissed off at me when she interrupted me" If he said the exact same thing he feels like he has already communicated that he hates it when you cut him off. He may or not realize his tone with you was unloving and rude. I know at times my tone even if I don't mean it that comes off more hostile then I intend. However knowing that I always encourage my spouse to let me know when my tone is headed in that direction. When she does I correct myself (as it is inappropriate)

A mc specializing in communication might help you two a lot. It seems he is trying to communicate to you his feelings with thoughts and when you talk just about feelings he is missing the why. Read somewhere about pink sunglasses and blue hearing aids and blue sunglasses pink hearing aids.

5 languages of love might also be something worth picking up and reading and to leave lieing around so he picks it up. Quick easy read without all the mumbo jumbo.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Very brief summary:

did 7 months of mc. H declared he's done.
Now I'm in individual counseling.
That is helping me stop those things that he sees are "constant."
my response to being snapped at was measured, clear, and undramatic.

As for his tit-for-tat:...yes, he still sees me in my "old" behaviors, which I am changing.
But he's not changing his. This was an example.
I'm doing my best. 
He sees me the way he sees me.

This is pushing me away so much more than he realizes.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

If you guys have already talked about this particular issue then I suggest looking into more extreme measures. My first response was based soley off the small exchange you gave us. Glad I at least "nailed" it. For the record most men hate the look. You can be calm and measured but when you have that look on your face we don't believe a word coming out of your mouth It comes off as condending and all we read out of it is hate.

I think you need to be honest with him and say if he isn't going to change for the good of the marriage then you arewilling to consider divorce or seperation.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I hear you.

The "look" is my counter-option, because WORDS have been unsuccessful.

My attempt to set a boundary.

You read in the clubhouse about "fitness testing."
This kind of behavior from him makes me feel very TESTED.
He was watching and waiting for me to "fail": to dare utter another word about it: "you know, I didn't say anything."

the moment I did, he flipped the table on me and essentially said "you blew it."

I'm not ok with that rendering of the story.

I see it differently: he had a tantrum. Again. That is disappointing.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Niceguy13 (Apr 7, 2011)

God I hate that fitness test crap such freaking mind games but I agree with that assesment.I know in another thread about same topic you own up to not handling the initial part of the conversation "properly" but his relucatnce to discuss what happened does speak volumes.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Call it setting boundaries, or standing up for yourself, but sometimes the impasse is due to the fact that both partners are doing it consistently.

If you talk together about how it makes you feel, and receive mutual agreement on the need to change, then you can choose to take a higher view of the ultimate goal of your relationship. The end game is a happy marriage. Sometimes, its not the weakest who bends first, but the strongest. What I'm saying is that once the issue is settled in his mind, on one or two occasions, when you are strong, choose to say absolutely nothing when he treats you like this. Later, if you sense that he didn't acknowledge his own behavior, speak to him of how it made you feel. Trust that he will see that you didn't react, and he will implicitly understand that the ball is in his court.

I only mention this approach because it is taught as one of the first rules in an annual leadership class I take at work. Sometimes, we choose to model instant forgiveness, but bring the issue up later, when emotions have settled.

In the end, if your attempt to be the bigger person fails, then doesn't that show you the true merit of the relationship anyway? If he takes, without giving, then he is a pretty selfish person.

Just an option, maybe..


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Halien said:


> Call it setting boundaries, or standing up for yourself, but sometimes the impasse is due to the fact that both partners are doing it consistently.
> 
> If you talk together about how it makes you feel, and receive mutual agreement on the need to change, then you can choose to take a higher view of the ultimate goal of your relationship. The end game is a happy marriage. Sometimes, its not the weakest who bends first, but the strongest. What I'm saying is that once the issue is settled in his mind, on one or two occasions, when you are strong, choose to say absolutely nothing when he treats you like this. Later, if you sense that he didn't acknowledge his own behavior, speak to him of how it made you feel. Trust that he will see that you didn't react, and he will implicitly understand that the ball is in his court.
> 
> ...


Thank you both so much for replying.

H, I will try this.

God knows I've been "trying something different" for months.

But this part of it---the appearance of instant forgiveness--isn't a part of thought of.

Here's the "risk" with that:

My bringing it up later feeds into his accusation that I have "an inability to let anything go."

I feel painted into a corner.
And I'm quite sick of that.
I can't win.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Niceguy13 said:


> God I hate that fitness test crap such freaking mind games but I agree with that assesment.I know in another thread about same topic you own up to not handling the initial part of the conversation "properly" but his relucatnce to discuss what happened does speak volumes.


Here's the other thing:

He says I "did the same thing" before dinner.

Not quite. 

What happened was: we were chatting w/ our friend.
I was making a point.
He said loudly, "I'm going to cut you off right now" and tried to talk over me.
I said, "no..." and continued making my point.

Later inside, I *didn't realize he was talking*, and I interjected.
Whereupon he snapped at me: "can I finish?!"

NOW...
I am aware that he felt insecure, left out, talked down to, etc before dinner.
And maybe my tone was a bit pedantic.

But his overreaction shows me that he is much more governed by his insecurities and fragile ego, than by love and maturity.
Not sure what to do in response.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Time for him to decide if he is willing and able to be honest with himself. My guess is that when he does this he is in a bad place internally for some reason that has nothing to do with you. Takes his bad mood out on you. THAT is seriously wrong. 

How often does he realize afterward that he was being a dik?




credamdóchasgra said:


> I hear you.
> 
> The "look" is my counter-option, because WORDS have been unsuccessful.
> 
> ...


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

Sounds like he's got a problem inside like the above poster said and you get to be where he releases his angst. 

You guys will have to talk about this for sure because this is how resentment and lack of respect starts and can lead to a lot of problems down the road.

By the way, I love your She-Ra avatar


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Time for him to decide if he is willing and able to be honest with himself. My guess is that when he does this he is in a bad place internally for some reason that has nothing to do with you. Takes his bad mood out on you. THAT is seriously wrong.
> 
> How often does he realize afterward that he was being a dik?


The answer to that question is: it is touch and go. Sometimes.

Currently he's acting like nothing happened, all is fine.

Texted me: "good morning baby. How is grandma doing with her tests?" (medical procedure)

I don't want to speak to him.
I'm mad as hell at him for acting like that and then behaving like all is normal.

After I cried all night and didn't sleep.

Knowing he slept well.

Something about all this smells very bad.

And I don't know what to do or how to deal.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2011)

ok, here is my view on this.

First off, I have to say that I am not familiar with any of your other grievances, but simply reading into this situation, and if I am wrong about it, I apologise in advance, because my view on this is not flattering.

The guy has been TRYING to communicate with you and has constantly been spoken over, drowned out by you speaking your mind. He has had it, and is TRYING to set his own boundaries with you. 

He drives an hour and a half to spend time with you and in the space of a couple of short hours, you disregard him several times, his views, his opinions mean so little to you that you can't be bothered to hear from him.

When he tries to push the point that you are crossing a boundary of his, you decide it is your right to get angry, "the look," yet again, disregarding his opinion. 

He is already unhappy with your behaviours in this and walks out to remove himself. Distance himself, give you time to think about it. 

Sure you want to have boundaries for him and his anger, but you disregard him and his boundaries as though he has no right to have them, you devalue him. Do you not stop and wonder WHY this upsets him?

He is still trying to make your marriage work, and ends your communication for the day with an affirmation of love.

If you think he got a good nights sleep after this I will bet you a tenner that you are wrong. You have him wound up so tight on this that he preferred to drive an hour and a half home than spend any more time in your company that day. He is trying to regain a semblance of his manhood back from you in my opinion.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Sigh.

The back story is relevant.

But thank you for taking the time.

Recall that I did apologize for my part, and sought to understand his pov.
Understood that he'd felt dismissed, and acknowledged/apologized for that.
And that he refused to talk to me.
And that I asked him to take a break, then return to a happy evening with us.
Told him I loved him and hoped he'd join us.
Stayed calm while he talked down to me in front of my family.

And bottom line...he'd rather reject all attempts at recovery/repair/getting past it/making peace...and instead just leave.

I open my mouth--I lose.
I shut my mouth--I lose.

I apologize and seek for us both to win--I lose.

Yes, he slept fine last night.
I've seen THIS happen only too many times, and am 100% certain that he slept fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

What parts are activated?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> What parts are activated?


The part that:
wants to be heard
values peace
thinks people should speak to each other kindly and not sarcastically or rudely
believes there's always a way out of tension into relief
the part that believes it can be worked out
the part that thinks one should respect the people and family whose home you are in
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

You may have been asked this question previously,

What's it going to take _for you_ to decide enough is enough?

He has told you that he is 'done' several times. What makes you think he is remotely invested in reconciling when this simply just happens over, and over, and over again?

Why do you want to reconcile if this is as good as it gets?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Deejo said:


> You may have been asked this question previously,
> 
> What's it going to take _for you_ to decide enough is enough?
> 
> ...


Because it's been, and can be, better than this.

however, I don't get that THIS is good enough for him.

You realize we haven't been married even a year, right?
A year in July.

I'm giving it at least a year. That's my own decision.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Here's the short skinny - from an Internal Family Systems perspective.

When things get warm... when we're all snuggly and becoming the security blanket for the other... we're feeling so so connected and "this is as good as it gets"

Inside?

They're feeling icky.

When they were vulnerable as children, it was UNSAFE. And, the knee-jerk response is to throw a jab.

And, that jab often has the word "you" in it.

If you aren't able to see this as a protector part screaming for space... if you aren't able to recognize it as such? Or, quite legitimately - as Deejo says - if that's simply not going to work for you?

Remember - love is a decision.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

Your description does paint him in a very negative light. It is one sided of course. He is not operating in a way that will keep him married to you. That is clear. What you could be doing is less clear since this is written by you. At this point, things will not get better really until he decides to make an effort to treat his marriage and his wife in a way that builds it/you rather than tears it/you up. At some point, you have to define to him how the marriage needs to be. It needs to be mutually supportive, a place where we both build each other up and never tear each other down. That actions and efforts count the most and no one will ever be perfect. I would be clear to him that if things don't change the marriage cannot survive. This assumes you have been trying hard for a period of time.


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## Myopia1964 (Feb 10, 2011)

I'm not familiar with your situation and haven't been following your threads, so I realize I'm slightly uninformed here and don't have the big picture. However, it sounds to me like your husband is frustrated with your communication style. Do you regularly dismiss him, cut him off in mid sentence, talk over him? He may feel that he has no voice in the relationship. 

This happened with my XBF...I would listen patiently to all his stories and give him my full attention. But when it was my turn to speak, he would interrupt me every two seconds, make constant irrelevant jokes, and basically make it impossible to talk. It felt very disrespectful and made me feel devalued and diminished. When I brought it to his attention, he would get angry and give the silent treatment. He would also say, "it wasn't my intention to insult you," which, of course, is not a helpful statement because it just allows him to ignore his behavior and dodge responsibility. And, like your husband, I also frequently got frustrated and said, "Can I finish???!!!" 

I don't know what you MC has told you but it might be a good exercise for you to develop listening skills. There's really an art to that.


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## anx (Nov 30, 2010)

Having been though MC, you guys need to get into MC or stupid stuff like this will tare you apart.

It doesn't matter how good the underlying love and relationship are if you just fight and bicker about miscommunication, you accidentally cutting him off, or whatever else. 

This will only get worse. If he isn't willing to deal with it there really is no hope. You need to do what it takes to get him into MC, and that might mean he needs to fix his sh*t or your done.

Be clear that you have stuff to change too, but if he doesn't care about it and isn't committed to making it better, it really doesn't matter what you do or how well you do it. There will always be a misunderstanding to fight over.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

I'm taking space from him for the next week and a half.

I almost feel like in that time, I'm just shoring up strength to say something difficult to him, or show him something other than what he's so defensively protecting himself against.

He's setting the relationship on HIS terms, which I'm not ok with, in the following way:

1. I can lose my temper in front of family, talk down to you, tell you "you blew it!" and drive away in a huff.
2. The next day I will text you thoughtful, sweet, and conversationally light messages as if that did not happen. 
Kinda like "ok, now I'm ready to be nice!"

It doesn't sit well with me. I feel manipulated. I feel like my standards and boundaries don't matter.
I do not feel like I have a partner who's on my side/is in my corner/is my friend.

He doesn't seem to care.

I'm keeping a cool temp. In THIS moment, I'm not sure what else I can possibly do.

P.S. Myopia, my H sounds much like your ex-bf.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Jellybeans (Mar 8, 2011)

I can understand how you'd feel frustrated if he's being rude to you one minute and sweet the next. It throws you for a loop.


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## chillymorn (Aug 11, 2010)

Just a thought.



could he be reading your body launguage.....

I know my wife uses the eyeroll,deep sigh,north side head shake chicken swager. and any number of body launguage that just rub me the wrong way.

could you be doing something like this and not know it.

I read somewhere that 80% of all comunication is with body launguage.


but he dose sound like a selfish child that dose not get his way.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

He does not realize how close to the edge I am. 
He pushes me away too often.
One of these days he's going to push me away one time too many.
I don't want that to happen, i really don't.
But I won't be jerked around forever.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Here's the short skinny - from an Internal Family Systems perspective.
> 
> When things get warm... when we're all snuggly and becoming the security blanket for the other... we're feeling so so connected and "this is as good as it gets"
> 
> ...


Conrad,

I do see this as protector parts screaming for space...or respect...or something he didn't get as a child.

But...love for myself is a decision too.

And loving him should not mean I let myself get stepped on by his protector parts.
Though I intellectually "get it," I don't want to get emotionally pummeled by that which I "get."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

I think he always sounds needy and yet is unwilling to look at your needs. For example, he wants you to feel that not being able to express his opinion while you're talking is a blow to his ego and he was hurt from this and was waiting for a chance to express this hurt which he did when you tried to interrupt him. He did so in a childish, needy way and then further acted childish by driving away in a huff.

At the same time, he doesn't meet your needs when you express you want him to read your work and offer criticism, critique and/or support.

So, it seems to me, both of you are having problems getting your needs met from the other and the end result is constant frustration and distancing.

The first year of marriage is a rough one or at least it was for me. There is a lot of adjusting and compromise as opposed to the pleasure of enjoying each other's company when you were a couple.

My advice would be to express to him that both of you have needs that aren't being met by the other, that you want to meet his needs and have your needs met. That the relationship as is isn't working for you, that you need better from both yourself and for him and really you mostly need for him to get on board and stop believing that he is the only one who is feeling the confusion and pain that's coming from the current conflicts in the relationship.


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## WhereAmI (Nov 3, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I'm taking space from him for the next week and a half.


I think this is an excellent idea! Have you made him aware of it? When you do, make sure not to blame him. Just let him know "yesterday's events" show that the relationship is still offtrack and that you could both use the time to consider the changes that need to be made. 

I can see you're very close to the edge and I don't blame you one bit. I'm thinking that a week without you being there might knock some sense into him.


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## Mom6547 (Jul 13, 2010)

Mephisto said:


> ok, here is my view on this.
> 
> First off, I have to say that I am not familiar with any of your other grievances, but simply reading into this situation, and if I am wrong about it, I apologise in advance, because my view on this is not flattering.
> 
> ...


Having read quite a bit of the back story, that is how it looks to me as well.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Mom6547 said:


> Having read quite a bit of the back story, that is how it looks to me as well.


Having been in IC for a month, and not posted any issues in a few weeks, I report that I have been handling my H's outbursts with a higher degree of patience, calm, and success than before.

What I tried yesterday was to "set limits."

He summarily pissed all over my limits.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

WhereAmI said:


> I think this is an excellent idea! Have you made him aware of it? When you do, make sure not to blame him. Just let him know "yesterday's events" show that the relationship is still offtrack and that you could both use the time to consider the changes that need to be made.
> 
> I can see you're very close to the edge and I don't blame you one bit. I'm thinking that a week without you being there might knock some sense into him.


This space was previously planned.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2011)

Credam, only advice I can give to you, is if you want your husband to act like a grown man, you have to treat him like one, if you want to treat him like a child in these ways, then of course he will act liike a child.

For one month, try to become completely submissive in conversation with him, while he speaks, do not interject, do not speak over him. Do not belittle him. When you speak to him, make sure you focus on positive. Try not to raise the point of what YOU want. Instead, focus on what he wants...... Just one month, this is all it will take for him to feel respected again, and I am fairly sure that he will treat you more in the manner that you want and deserve. 

This has to be a selfless and giving thing on your behalf, but look at it as an investment. It only take 3 weeks to create a habit. I am not saying you have to roll over and beg like a dog or you have to debase yourself to him, just that from a man's POV, we need to feel respected, above all else. After one month of your submissive communication, he will feel that, and show you more respect and love than he currently does.

You are looking at walking out on this marriage in under a year, so what can it hurt to try if you seriously want it to work. From his communication style, I get the feeling he really does want it to work, but he is chaffing from a few things that you are doing, and as long as you keep doing them he is going to be raw when they keep happening.

An old and effective torture is to strap down a person and to set up a bucket with a small hole in it, that let's a drop of water at a time drip onto the persons forehead. they cannot escape it, they are left in that room in the dark, in silence for days or weeks...... A single drop of water surely cant be torture right? WRONG eventually, that single droplet of water is like a bullet passing through the head of that person, each and every one of them, because it is the ONLY thing they can focus on. It is psychological cruelty beyond anything else. In mythology it is how the gods punished Loki for killing Baldur....... Just a point for you to consider.... how many drops have you let fall onto him?


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Mephisto said:


> Credam, only advice I can give to you, is if you want your husband to act like a grown man, you have to treat him like one, if you want to treat him like a child in these ways, then of course he will act liike a child.
> 
> For one month, try to become completely submissive in conversation with him, while he speaks, do not interject, do not speak over him. Do not belittle him. When you speak to him, make sure you focus on positive. Try not to raise the point of what YOU want. Instead, focus on what he wants...... Just one month, this is all it will take for him to feel respected again, and I am fairly sure that he will treat you more in the manner that you want and deserve.
> 
> ...


Sure, what you suggest is worth a try. That makes sense.

But really and truly...comparing me to Chinese water torture is a bit of an exaggeration.

I've had my moments of harping, repeating myself, etc....but I still think I deserve respect AND treat people, including my husband, with respect.

I also don't think I should just accept the following in general conversation:

"I'M GOING TO CUT YOU OFF RIGHT NOW!" as I'm talking.
Really?
That was HIM *announcing* that he was about to interrupt me, as I was mid-sentence.

How'd I respond?
Calmly, quietly said "no, I'm going to finish my point first..."

Then I finished my point, and waited for him to make his point.
During which I did not interrupt him.

My tone of voice with him has lowered significantly.
I make a habit of taking a deep breath and thinking before I speak. Haven't yelled or overrreacted in awhile.

Not sure why he can't reciprocate basic norms of civil, adult conversation.

I'm not an Alpha b**** shrew, and he's not a "nice guy" (according to TAM's definition).


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

And along the water torture analogy...

EVERY outburst, tantrum, "F you/F this/WTF" ranting and raging, storm off into the dark rainy night...

is a droplet upon MY weary head.

It takes two.
You're talking to the ONE of us who is paying for weekly therapy.

Not the one who refuses MC OR IC, yelled at his spouse in front of her family, refused to calm down for the sake of peace and the "nice evening together," and made a scene of storming off and away.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Trenton said:


> I think he always sounds needy and yet is unwilling to look at your needs. For example, he wants you to feel that not being able to express his opinion while you're talking is a blow to his ego and he was hurt from this and was waiting for a chance to express this hurt which he did when you tried to interrupt him. He did so in a childish, needy way and then further acted childish by driving away in a huff.
> 
> At the same time, he doesn't meet your needs when you express you want him to read your work and offer criticism, critique and/or support.
> 
> ...


Thank you, Trenton...your analysis sounds pretty accurate.

I'm getting to the point where I'm giving up on the usefulness of words, conversation, communication--true and helpful as they are.

He's not on board.
I don't feel like I have a partner.

I have an angry, sad, scared, pained man who doesn't know how to take responsibility for healing these feelings so he can be more whole and see that I AM NOT HIS ENEMY.

Know how many times I've tried what you're suggesting?
In MC....outside of MC....

"What do you need from me?"

You know I've tried; I've posted about it.

I'm reaching the end of my rope.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

WhereAmI said:


> I think this is an excellent idea! Have you made him aware of it? When you do, make sure not to blame him. Just let him know "yesterday's events" show that the relationship is still offtrack and that you could both use the time to consider the changes that need to be made.
> 
> I can see you're very close to the edge and I don't blame you one bit. I'm thinking that a week without you being there might knock some sense into him.


I hope so.
I really do. Thank you.
I'm sick of this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I'm mad as hell at him for acting like that and then behaving like all is normal.
> 
> After I cried all night and didn't sleep.
> 
> ...


sounds pretty much like how i spent my sunday night...

Im sorry you're back at this spot. You mentioned that he drove off and that you felt like he was intentionally picking a fight with you. I dont think this is the first time that he's left at night and you havent heard from him. What did you mean when you said that something about this smells very bad?


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

Please understand that what I'm about to say doesn't imply that you are in the wrong. I'm just trying to offer another way of looking at things. Probably and old fashioned way that won't work in todays world.

For years, my wife complained about the things I did wrong. Trust me, I was wrong. Did I need her to tell me? That was the part that frustrated me. She assumed that I had no conscience. Overall though, we were happy. Recently, she even admitted to our marriage counselor that it was primarily because I didn't let her mental illness stand in the way, and because I let it go each and every time. She was aware of this decision within me all along.

Faced with a bipolar spouse, if we always have the need to set firm boundaries, and identify each and every misstep of our partner, we will fail. The marriage will not last. 

The thing that I learned that gave me happiness through the years was that the happiness was a clear and deliberate choice. Seventy or more percent of the time, when she did something to hurt me, I knew that she saw that it was wrong, but she was only human. Yea, sometimes I would pick a good time to talk about it, but most of the time, I chose the end game. The end game is the final goal. The desire to live a life with a very flawed person, and to call it a good life. I just let it go. 

Each and every conflict can be fought, or you can simply chose to let it go. Focus on the end game. If your husband isn't bipolar, like my wife, your periodic face to face chats will ensure that he knows that this flawed part of him hurts, but you are choosing to let it go. Its the blemish within him. If you focus on that blemish everytime you see it, your marriage will fail. You are choosing your pride and boundaries over the end game.

So, the decision is really one of just analyzing him to determine if he is really worth this end game. If not, call it quits. If he is, and you choose to let some things go, he will notice. Right now, even though he seems like a bit of a jerk, maybe you are both caught up with the pride of setting boundaries over the end game.


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## Mephisto (Feb 20, 2011)

Credam, sorry to have come across as being harsh and comparing you to water torture.....I in no way meant you were torturous, it was actually an analogy to get you to realize that a constant discomfort can grow to be a great pain when there is no reprieve from it. 

Having said that though, your H has to realise that he has some anger management issues and is behaving like a brat. 

For now tho, for the sake of the initial peace, I think you need to stop prodding at the bear..... once he loses his "up's" from the anger, he will either find something else to be angry about.... or he will be approachable to working on himself to benefit you. 

I would have an entire other list of advice for him if he were the one on this forum trying to fix the situation. 

I wish you the best of luck in triumphing over this situation. Sometimes you have to surrender to win.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Halien said:


> Please understand that what I'm about to say doesn't imply that you are in the wrong. I'm just trying to offer another way of looking at things. Probably and old fashioned way that won't work in todays world.
> 
> For years, my wife complained about the things I did wrong. Trust me, I was wrong. Did I need her to tell me? That was the part that frustrated me. She assumed that I had no conscience. Overall though, we were happy. Recently, she even admitted to our marriage counselor that it was primarily because I didn't let her mental illness stand in the way, and because I let it go each and every time. She was aware of this decision within me all along.
> 
> ...


What you are saying makes a lot of sense.

I'd love to be able to just focus on the end game, not JUST see the flaws, not get so caught up in setting boundaries that I lose the bigger picture of just being, and just being happy.

Here's what is getting in my way with that:

The very nature of this "flaw" that he has (or behavior, or whatever) is that HE CHOOSES NOT TO VALUE, SEE, OR PRESERVE THE END GAME.

Every single time we "seem to be having a good time," things seem to be going well, we "should be happy," etc., and he points the finger at me and walks out on it, declaring that it is not worth it to him to just chill............that STINGS.

This is the only time we'll see each other in 2 weeks. It stings that it is perfectly fine with him to let a bad attitude take over and essentially sabotage it.

Part 2 of this is that he gets and uses free license to say or do anything--no matter how hurtful and no matter who's there to see or hear it...and a day later when he's "over it," he acts like nothing has happened, and that no damage was done.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: yes, I can accept a person with his flaws and not obsess over trying to change them.

That's why I'm in IC; to stop focusing on what's wrong with HIM and begin to heal what is within MY power to heal, etc.

Also--yes, I know there is a lot to love and appreciate about this man I married. And I do.

But he has no idea how much it stings, hurts, and gradually chips away at what we're (supposed to be) building every time he says, "YOU BLEW IT," storms out, and a day later acts like it didn't happen.
I don't think he'll ever understand that.

He did things like this ON OUR HONEYMOON.
Lost his temper in restaurants, pools, or beaches, and stormed out.
ON OUR HONEYMOON.

I'm giving it my all, have tried something along the lines of what you suggest, often try "cooling the temperature," KNOW FOR SURE that I handle these things very differently than I would've before (I would've called him, demanded we "discuss" it, yelled at him, begged, pleaded, appealed, maybe even driven home after him)...I don't push anymore.

Who knows, maybe he does see some of those differences in my behaviors and THAT pisses him off.

Whether or not he does, he has yet to show consistent signs of meeting me in the middle, or wanting to.

It is impossible for me to feel close to him right now.
I don't know who I'm dealing with.
I don't even want to look at his face, hear his voice, anything--because I know nothing from him will be REAL.
He's driving up here to pick something up (which he forgot to get the other day when he stormed out). If he were coming and I knew there would be a hug, some conversation, some connection, a smile, maybe an "I'm sorry about that the other night," a kiss...great.
But I can't count on that.
He'll come with chit-chatty BS.

This is cumulative, by the way...there are only so many vengeful finger-pointing tantrums one can receive before one is sickened by the vengeful finger-pointer.

All of that is just a vent.
I am so very close to the edge. Very close.


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## Orion (Jul 17, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I'll keep this brief. Need to know how to go from here.
> 
> I'm out of town for 2 weeks, with my mom and grandmother. G is having health problems. Procedure tomorrow. I'm here helping with things.
> 
> ...


Creda,

I have followed your story and I feel bad that this current thing has happened. When I read your initial posts, I could see why your husband reacted as he did (in some cases) towards you. In fact, I indicated as much a few times in your threads. However, I feel that you have made positive adjustments in your interaction with him. He has not noticed those adjustments and/or made adjustments himself. The issue is, how long does he draw off of past experiences before he realizes that you are changing? Also, how long do you deal with his behavior as well? I ask these questions because I was like your husband. My wife did things that got on my nerves. So, I decided that I'd respond in kind. I no longer filtered my reactions and responded/retaliated to what I felt was disrespected with whatever came to my mind because I felt like she deserved whatever reaction I had. The problem is, she had started to amend her behavior and it wasn't until she pointed it out that I realized that I was being a real d!ck based completely upon what I expected her to do (or what she meant) given past experiences. I didn't even acknowledge that her past actions were no longer her m.o. My hope for you is that your husband can realize your progress and change his behavior. I really wish that I had advice but I don't. I just wanted you to know that I feel for what you are going through right now. Good luck.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Mephisto said:


> Credam, sorry to have come across as being harsh and comparing you to water torture.....I in no way meant you were torturous, it was actually an analogy to get you to realize that a constant discomfort can grow to be a great pain when there is no reprieve from it.
> 
> Having said that though, your H has to realise that he has some anger management issues and is behaving like a brat.
> 
> ...


I totally understand what you meant in the analogy.

I do see my role.

I hear what you say about not "prodding the bear."
But can say I do my best NOT to prod the bear...without allowing myself to be stepped on by the bear along the way.

I don't think it's inappropriate for me to NOT be intentionally interrupted as I speak, or NOT want to be snapped at.

I can't figure out who he wants me to be:

1. assertive enough to "give it right back to him/put him in his place (his words). This is a "turn-on." (his words)
2. BUT not so assertive that I have any of my own expectations for what is and isn't ok with me (i.e., boundaries)
3. materialistic and shallow enough to be content as a pretty little wife whose husband "gets her things."
4. BUT smart enough that he can brag about my "accomplishments."
5. BUT not so smart that he can't let a weekend pass without proving he knows better than I do on a range of topics.

I'm not entirely sure he just wants me to be me.

(I'm sure some of you will want to throw that one right back at me. "Do you just want him to be him?")


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Until you really know who you are, you cannot be sure.


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## Halien (Feb 20, 2011)

credamdóchasgra said:


> What you are saying makes a lot of sense.
> 
> I'd love to be able to just focus on the end game, not JUST see the flaws, not get so caught up in setting boundaries that I lose the bigger picture of just being, and just being happy.
> 
> ...


To be honest, with that type of behavior, I would argue that you should just chalk this up to a great life lesson in patience after your anniversary deadline, and let him go play his game solo. It seems like you're struggling to redeem the marriage, and want to make sure you tried everything possible, but just as in my case, our spouses have to take the ownership for fixing their core defects.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Orion said:


> The issue is, how long does he draw off of past experiences before he realizes that you are changing? Also, how long do you deal with his behavior as well? I ask these questions because I was like your husband. My wife did things that got on my nerves. So, I decided that I'd respond in kind. I no longer filtered my reactions and responded/retaliated to what I felt was disrespected with whatever came to my mind because I felt like she deserved whatever reaction I had. The problem is, she had started to amend her behavior and it wasn't until she pointed it out that I realized that I was being a real d!ck based completely upon what I expected her to do (or what she meant) given past experiences. I didn't even acknowledge that her past actions were no longer her m.o. My hope for you is that your husband can realize your progress and change his behavior. I really wish that I had advice but I don't. I just wanted you to know that I feel for what you are going through right now. Good luck.


I appreciate this.

This was my mom's take on it too: 
"He still sees you as xyz, even though you're not doing that anymore, and THAT'S what he's still reacting to."

ONCE during one of our MC sessions, he announced, "You are 1000 times less sensitive than you used to be, yes, I see that!"
--but on the whole, he is still painting me as an overreactive, over-sensitive, harping, needy, whiney PITA...whether I am or not.

I keep thinking that I just need to keep at it until he sees.
Maybe a reminder, like your wife did.
Maybe in the form of a question: "Honey, when was the last time I did xyz, really?"

He just gets so hepped up and pissed off in those moments that he is PRE-EMPTIVELY REACTING TO SOMETHING THAT IS NOT HAPPENING OR HAS NOT HAPPENED YET.

And he drowns me out.

Maybe because there are core character traits in my personality that HAVEN'T changed, and he really doesn't even like those.

My sting right now is that he seems to want to let his anger overtake him whenever he wants, no matter what/who/where, without it having an effect.

He knows this kind of stuff has an effect.
Something similar happened at Christmas and it had an effect.

Yes, I'm growing and changing certain of my behaviors becuase I SEE that they have a negative effect.
In other words--HE HAS DRAWN BOUNDARIES WITH ME, AND I AM RESPECTING THEM.

I'm really only asking for reciprocation.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Blanca said:


> sounds pretty much like how i spent my sunday night...
> 
> Im sorry you're back at this spot. You mentioned that he drove off and that you felt like he was intentionally picking a fight with you. I dont think this is the first time that he's left at night and you havent heard from him. What did you mean when you said that something about this smells very bad?


Blanca, I'm sorry I just saw this.

I'm also sorry your Sunday night was bad too.

A few things smell bad: 

1. I can flip out, blame, have a tantrum, be REALLY angry...and then sleep fine (I know he did, everyone).

2. I do not see a connection between my raging temper and our relationship/level of closeness or trust. It makes no sense to me that now YOU don't feel close to me or trusting in me.

3. YOU feel hurt right now by this event, and I feel fine.

That smells bad.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> Until you really know who you are, you cannot be sure.


Yes.

But how about this:

I know parts of who I am.
Some are swell, some are neutral, some pose a challenge.

I know it takes self-reflection, humility, and work to be a person who is good for another person in any given situation.

On the whole, I like who I am, while I know my weaknesses and OWN THEM.

My problem is that in the middle of a conflict that could've and should've stayed small, my husband couldn't look at me, see who I am, see his partner, and just BE with me.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Halien said:


> To be honest, with that type of behavior, I would argue that you should just chalk this up to a great life lesson in patience after your anniversary deadline, and let him go play his game solo. It seems like you're struggling to redeem the marriage, and want to make sure you tried everything possible, but just as in my case, our spouses have to take the ownership for fixing their core defects.


I guess I'm hoping a "cool-down/180" type of approach will wake him up.

Like once I'm less "needy," he'll want to start meeting the needs.

About his core defects, he says, 
"It's just how I am. Deal with it."


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

From my perspective, he upped the ante on misbehavior and found his favorite button on the soda machine.



credamdóchasgra said:


> Yes.
> 
> But how about this:
> 
> ...


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> From my perspective, he upped the ante on misbehavior and found his favorite button on the soda machine.


Definitely upped the ante.

But the soda machine button was only semi-functional. (i.e., I chose a measured emotional response instead of SAYING NOTHING.)

Which doesn't matter, because the end result was just as bad.
And as far as HE can see, that button's still working.

So knowing the ante will keep being upped....what do I do???


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## Orion (Jul 17, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I appreciate this.
> 
> This was my mom's take on it too:
> "He still sees you as xyz, even though you're not doing that anymore, and THAT'S what he's still reacting to."
> ...


I understand. It is unfortunate but epiphanies don't occur because we want them to. A person needs to be open to seeing what is going on. Here's a rough estimate of how mine happened. Mrs. Orion and I were having a discussion about something. I felt like she was being disrespectful (and in retrospect, she wasn't).

Me: You know, you always act like that. (By "act like that" I meant flip and disprectful).

Mrs. O: If I do it all of the time, when was the last time I did it?

Me (thinking): Look, you know what I mean.

Mrs. O: No I don't. You said "always" but you can't even bring up a recent instance. Do you know that I have made a point of not doing that for the last 4 months? But you are still firing on me with both barrels sometimes.
(we had talked about her behavior about 4 months prior)

Me: I didn't know that and you are right. I am assuming that you are being disrespectful when you are not. I am sorry about that.

Mrs. O: Great, now can you stop being a d!ck to me?!?

Me: Fair enough. (smiling)

We hug. Roll credits. The End. 

The thing is, I was open to receiving the message that Mrs. Orion was telling me. I don't know that you can "get through to him" so much as he needs to get through to himself. Btw, I didn't call Mrs. Orion out of her name or cuss her out. His anger seems to be a little more deep-seeded than mine was and it might take him longer to see the light.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Definitely upped the ante.
> 
> But the soda machine button was only semi-functional. (i.e., I chose a measured emotional response instead of SAYING NOTHING.)
> 
> ...


Check your PM. It was written in response to Black Medicine, but it applies here also.

IFS will help - immensely. As soon as you can "de-cloud" from this, the parts work should resume.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Another thing:

His "safe story" goes something like this:

"she's the unreasonable one! I'm the calm one! I'm sick of her games!"

when I'm calm--as I've been working on--it takes that role from him.

Now what's he going to do, when he can't be the perfect one who blames someone else?

So the other night, he pushed until he found the button that got a reaction.
At which point, he had all he needed in order to blame me.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Credamdóchasgra, recommended reading for you … “Awareness” by Anthony de Mello.

He’ll teach you about the difference between “Me” and “I”. About how passive observation through your “I” brings about change without your active participation, without even trying to change things.

Bob


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

AFEH said:


> Credamdóchasgra, recommended reading for you … “Awareness” by Anthony de Mello.
> 
> He’ll teach you about the difference between “Me” and “I”. About how passive observation through your “I” brings about change without your active participation, without even trying to change things.
> 
> Bob


thank you, bob.

I haven't heard from him today. Unfortunately, that hurts.

I may be approaching the point at which I admit there's little else I can do.

I hope we make it.
But I can't be the only one trying to see and value the other one's pov.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

credamdóchasgra said:


> Blanca, I'm sorry I just saw this.
> 
> I'm also sorry your Sunday night was bad too.
> 
> ...


it actually does seem bad...my H had no problem walking away and ignoring me because he was meeting his needs elsewhere.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Blanca said:


> it actually does seem bad...my H had no problem walking away and ignoring me because he was meeting his needs elsewhere.


I'm sorry to hear that.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

It is essential to his survival to make sure I look like an unreasonable, overemotional, needy, pushy, whiney nut.

(all of which I have been, at times)

This isn't conscious. 

He pushed the other night until he got a reaction from me.

Unfortunately, he got one--steady, measured, and calm--but I still took the bait.
And I tried to "fix." In the moment.

It really seems that ANYTHING I do or say in response, simply distracts his view from his own behavior and emotions.


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## Blanca (Jul 25, 2008)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I'm sorry to hear that.


do you know how your H copes when he's upset? what does he do that makes himself feel better? i think its very fishy that he leaves and acts like nothing happened. to me it means he's not only avoiding the situation but since he's in a good mood and acting like nothing happened he's doing something that makes him feel better.


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I don't want you to see this boy anymore ...

Honestly? This sounds like whacky teenage behavior. I'm being serious about that.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Blanca said:


> do you know how your H copes when he's upset? what does he do that makes himself feel better? i think its very fishy that he leaves and acts like nothing happened. to me it means he's not only avoiding the situation but since he's in a good mood and acting like nothing happened he's doing something that makes him feel better.


Nah. He just compartmentalizes his feelings.
Stuffs them down.
Puts his mind on work and shuts me out.

There's nothing sneaky about him.
He's blatant about everything.

No chance of drugs or cheating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Deejo said:


> I don't want you to see this boy anymore ...
> 
> Honestly? This sounds like whacky teenage behavior. I'm being serious about that.


I know.

But I'm not ready to walk yet.

Is it any wackier than some of the fitness testing females you guys post about?
Any less likely to be repaired?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Creda,
Be straight with him: "I am committed to giving the marriage one year. I will do that no matter what. If however you keep behaving badly, refusing to acknowledge it, and blameshifting, at the end of the year we will be done."

I realize this is "escalating" but he needs to know. 



credamdóchasgra said:


> I know.
> 
> But I'm not ready to walk yet.
> 
> ...


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

MEM11363 said:


> Creda,
> Be straight with him: "I am committed to giving the marriage one year. I will do that no matter what. If however you keep behaving badly, refusing to acknowledge it, and blameshifting, at the end of the year we will be done."
> 
> I realize this is "escalating" but he needs to know.


An ultimatum right now would likely do more damage.

PLUS...I know i've only been partially consistent in NOT taking the bait when he pushes my button.
I've had some unattractive moments, recently enough that I don't think he can SEE his own role at this point.

Yes, maybe he needs to know...but I'm not sure this approach at this moment is the way to go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

credamdóchasgra said:


> I know.
> 
> But I'm not ready to walk yet.
> 
> ...


You are hitting the concern that I have.

Women want men to be their rock. Unflappable. Unmoveable.

You are working this in reverse.

I think you are on the right track. But, it's not easy.

Stay the course.


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## credamdóchasgra (Sep 24, 2010)

Conrad said:


> You are hitting the concern that I have.
> 
> Women want men to be their rock. Unflappable. Unmoveable.


AND...I KNOW there is a part of him that really wants to be the ummoveable rock for me.
I know it's really important to him to be "the rock." 
Needed. The strong one. The stable one.

In his worst moments, he's mad as hell that he isn't, and mad as hell that he (thinks he) IS--both at the same time.

But he has to be the one to see this, and realize what a lot of you do:
that "strong" doesn't mean tyrannical and intimidating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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