# Just wondering what "normal" is?



## coldshoulder (Sep 27, 2011)

I've been lurking in a few of these relationship forums and I have read about quite a few people that are in my same situation...men and women...

But I have yet to hear what the "normal" or average married sexual relationship is like...of course I'm talking about frequency of sexual activity...

When my relationship with my wife started back in 1991, everytime we went on a date it ended in sex...a year later she moved into my place and it slowed (understandably) to about once or twice a week...this was still good for me...but as the years have gone by it has slowed further and further to a point where we had to have a conversation about the infrequency and my unhappiness with the situation. 

Now, my situation isn't as bad as some in here have stated...but this is my situation and I'm not happy with it...it is now at the point where we only have sex once every 4 to 8 weeks (averages out to once every 6 weeks)...I have talked to her about it and asked if it is her not being attracted to me anylonger (she says it isn't...)...and it certainly isn't my lack of interest in her  ...I know she is stressed about her job and tired most of the time (but the work situation is only in the last year, this has gone on for atleast a decade or more)...I try to make sure that she knows that I am still attracted to her, and tell her she is beautiful quite often...

I'm getting quite frustrated with the situation and I'm not quite sure where to go from here...I don't want her to just "give it up", if she isn't in the mood it just isn't the same...I don't want to leave the relationship since everything else is pretty good, and leaving just for sex is selfish...we both feel that we do more than our share, which is probably a good indicator that we are both giving and taking...but I also don't want my sex life to grind to a halt in my 40s...

Any suggestions as to how to proceed? (is marriage counselling something that should be considered, or am I just being a horndog?)

Later.


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## loveiswhereiamnot (Jul 8, 2011)

Read Intimacy and Desire. It helped me a lot to see that there is always a high desire partner and a low desire partner. There has to be, and there's no thing abnormal about it at all. How you deal with the mismatch is crucial.

but in short, there is no normal frequency. Normal is what two people work out between themselves that keeps them both happy.


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## symphonious (Sep 27, 2011)

I'm in a situation where my husband says he isn't attracted to me, which explains why he never compliments me, never initiates sex, never touches me lovingly or brags about me to his friends or whatever... so I don't know how much my advice will actually be worth, but fwiw, here goes.

It's great that you're still attracted to her and that hasn't changed. If she says it hasn't changed for her then that is probably the case. When my husband and I moved in together the sex definitely slowed down (and even stopped for awhile) only because prior to that I only saw him once every two weeks, and seeing him every day, naturally, we couldn't have sex like we did in our marathon sessions previously. In the beginning I never got the feeling like he wasn't attracted to me (apparently he wasn't then). Either way, he assured me his libido was low also and that it was alright. Turns out it wasn't, because he started a brief emotional affair that would've led to sex, but that's due to lack of communication. He just plain shut me out. So unless she shuts you out completely and doesn't even want to -talk- about it, you might not have a whole lot to worry about just yet.

Have you tried spicing it up a little? Getting her some sexy lingerie, or cooking her a dinner that can only be eaten off of one another (think sushi or something else exotic that won't burn you!), or playtime toys? Have you suggested watching some porn together (this is a longshot, I don't know many women who would acquiesce to this willingly)? 

Spicing it up might be a way to get her to feel more interested in the idea. Different stuff, fun stuff, and heck, sometimes even silly stuff (costumes, etc). If she's tired, that's one thing, but like you said it was going on even before that.

If the new introductions of stuff don't help, I'm betting counseling can help bring up some of the issues related to why she isn't bedding down with you more frequently (it may be something completely different and unrelated, like stress from bills, or the fact that she doesn't think about it as often, or even something like birth control or early menopause).

Best of luck.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

Hi coldshoulder ~

Welcome aboard.

Here's some statistical information from the Kinsey report about frequency of sex: The Kinsey Institute - Sexuality Information Links - FAQ [Related Resources]

But, of course, there is no such thing as "normal" except as it relates to you and your spouse.

So, you've indicated that you are not happy with your current situation. And no, you aren't being a horndog - sexual intimacy is a very special part of marriage - the one defining thing that sets it apart from all other relationships you have in your life.

So, how long has this situation been going on? Over the last year or the last ten?

If you've been on the forum awhile, you may have seen this list already. But let's go through it looking for clues as to what may be going on with your wife: Low sex drive in women - MayoClinic.com

Let's look at physical issues first. If your wife is in her 40's she is more than likely starting to experience some hormonal fluctuations due to peri-menopause. Fatigue is one of the manifestations of that. Additional stress from overwork/overload just makes it that much worse. If you are physically and mentally exhausted, it can be really difficult to summon up the energy to have sex, because it requires both of those things.

Has she had a check-up recently to rule out any other conditions? Of course my favorite one to bring up is under-active thyroid (hypothyroidism) because I happen to have it and it started in my 40's (I am 47 now). Even sub-clinical or upper normal values can negatively affect some people. It affects women much more often than men.

Is your wife of reasonable weight, does she exercise, eat right, get enough sleep?

So, next consider relationship issues. Women's sex drives are governed partly by biology (they tend to be cyclical based upon phase of life and time of month) and emotional. Lots of women need to feel a connection with their spouse to want to make love to them. Now sometimes, this can be difficult if you have other issues - resentments, grudges, bickering, fighting - that is going on.

But sometimes, it can be no more than just not allowing yourself to be aroused. If she's not 'feeling it', is she ever willing to just see if you can arouse her?

Lastly, how would you rate your wife's willingness to acknowledge that this an important need of yours and to try and work on it together? There are a lot of good books and relationship web-sites that you can do together if she's willing to try that first before going the counseling route. The important part is her degree of willingness to acknowledge it as a problem that needs fixing and her willingness to actively be part of that solution.

God Bless.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

whatever "normal" is, it's suubstantially more frequent than 9 weeks and that's where I'm at.


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## coldshoulder (Sep 27, 2011)

Enchantment said:


> Hi coldshoulder ~
> 
> Welcome aboard.
> 
> ...


Yes, that's the same answer that is given when this question is asked...the Kinsey Institute info is more what I was asking about...



Enchantment said:


> So, you've indicated that you are not happy with your current situation. And no, you aren't being a horndog - sexual intimacy is a very special part of marriage - the one defining thing that sets it apart from all other relationships you have in your life.
> 
> So, how long has this situation been going on? Over the last year or the last ten?


The frequency seemed to drop off shortly after marriage, so probably about 12yrs ago...we had a heart to heart conversation about it about 8yrs ago where I told her that I wasn't very satisfied with the frequency, but I also didn't want to just have her "perform" just to make me happy...I wanted her to "want to..", and that kinda backfired...the frequency dropped even more...it went to around 8 to 10 weeks in between...so we had another conversation about 5yrs ago where I basically said that if she didn't want to have a sexual relationship that maybe I should go outside of our marriage (I didn't want her to just "roll over..." but I also didn't want my sex life to end...a bit of an ultimatum)...it kinda worked since our frequency has improved, but it still isn't enough for me...



Enchantment said:


> If you've been on the forum awhile, you may have seen this list already. But let's go through it looking for clues as to what may be going on with your wife: Low sex drive in women - MayoClinic.com
> 
> Let's look at physical issues first. If your wife is in her 40's she is more than likely starting to experience some hormonal fluctuations due to peri-menopause. Fatigue is one of the manifestations of that. Additional stress from overwork/overload just makes it that much worse. If you are physically and mentally exhausted, it can be really difficult to summon up the energy to have sex, because it requires both of those things.
> 
> ...


We are both over weight...she wanted me to buy her an exercise bike, so I did...it sits in the corner...the treadmill was given away a couple of years ago...and her eating habbits are not good...but she does get lots of sleep each night...



Enchantment said:


> So, next consider relationship issues. Women's sex drives are governed partly by biology (they tend to be cyclical based upon phase of life and time of month) and emotional. Lots of women need to feel a connection with their spouse to want to make love to them. Now sometimes, this can be difficult if you have other issues - resentments, grudges, bickering, fighting - that is going on.
> 
> But sometimes, it can be no more than just not allowing yourself to be aroused. If she's not 'feeling it', is she ever willing to just see if you can arouse her?
> 
> Lastly, how would you rate your wife's willingness to acknowledge that this an important need of yours and to try and work on it together?


I think this is the BIG ONE...I don't think she realizes how important this aspect of our relationship is to me...she seems to enjoy having sex once we get started, but getting her to try is the issue...she's even stated that at the sixth or seventh week she realizes that it has been quite a while since we have had sex, and that is the night...???



Enchantment said:


> There are a lot of good books and relationship web-sites that you can do together if she's willing to try that first before going the counseling route. The important part is her degree of willingness to acknowledge it as a problem that needs fixing and her willingness to actively be part of that solution.
> 
> God Bless.


Sometimes it feels more like a room mate situation than a marriage...I'll have to talk to her again and not be subtle about anything...just lay it out (not be a jerk about it or anymore ultimatums) so that she knows my feelings on the subject...masturbation can only carry you so far... :scratchhead:

Later.


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## Grayson (Oct 28, 2010)

Enchantment said:


> But, of course, there is no such thing as "normal" except as it relates to you and your spouse.


As the line from _Star Trek: Generations_ goes: "'Normal' is what everyone else is, and you are not."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

See, I think you can talk all you want, but she needs to have an epiphany to want to be intimate more often. Would she be willing to read something like the following, or do you think it would just piss her off? Understanding Your Husband's Sexual Needs - Focus on the Family

What would happen if you initiated more often? Does she just reject you?

What do you do to make her feel appreciated - to try and get her in the mood? Do you flirt with each other? See, us ladies like to know that WE are the thing you desire above all else - and not just for sex, but for who we ARE.

God Bless.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I truly don't see the issue with having sex. For god sake it's at most (on most nights) less than 30 minutes and feels good.

My husband and I (even when he moved out for 3 months) have had regular sex-- about 4-5 times a week, sometimes more. We had it 5 times this weekend.

I dunno. I think she's lying about something...or she just doesn't like sex or desire it. Maybe it is you. 

I can't imagine though...the only time I didn't want sex was when i was on birth control--- i quit it after a month!


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

loveiswhereiamnot said:


> Read Intimacy and Desire. It helped me a lot to see that there is always a high desire partner and a low desire partner. There has to be, and there's no thing abnormal about it at all. How you deal with the mismatch is crucial.
> 
> but in short, there is no normal frequency. Normal is what two people work out between themselves that keeps them both happy.


Not true. My husband and I are both high desire people.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

You have so much to learn about you sexuality which by the way is healthy and normal, that it is astounding! Where did you get the notion that you are a horn dog?? I think therapy is required and I don't think this is about sex but lack of sex is a symptom of lack of prioritization of your relationship. 

Don't lead with sex but don't let it drop from one of the primary problems. I think it would help to post in the men's clubhouse with a link back to this thread. You lack understanding of yourself and there are wise men there who can help you. Don't post the same thing maybe some along the lines of you perceptions of sex in marriage and request help with putting it right. 

Best of luck on your journey.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coldshoulder (Sep 27, 2011)

that_girl said:


> I dunno. I think she's lying about something...or she just doesn't like sex or desire it. Maybe it is you.


That's reassuring!! but it is a possibility that she is lying about being attracted to me...sometimes I think she is just attracted to the safety and security that I provide...who knows?

I mean, I'm not the prettiest guy around but I don't think I'm unattractive...??



Catherine602 said:


> You have so much to learn about you sexuality which by the way is healthy and normal, that it is astounding! Where did you get the notion that you are a horn dog?? I think therapy is required and I don't think this is about sex but lack of sex is a symptom of lack of prioritization of your relationship.


Not totally sure I follow you...but the horndog thing comes from her thinking I just want sex all the time...

I'm not quite sure where the "You lack understanding of yourself..." comes from...you kinda loose me there...



Enchantment said:


> What would happen if you initiated more often? Does she just reject you?


Yup...flat no, or not now...and it's not like I'm asking at the dinner table...it's in the evening or on the weekend when we are alone...

Maybe if I treat it more like we are courting...maybe that would help...

Later.


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## that_girl (Jul 6, 2011)

I didn't mean physically attracted, but emotionally attractive.


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## Catherine602 (Oct 14, 2010)

I thought that you felt you were a horn dog but you meant she thinks you are. So in that light, what I said does not apply to you
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## coldshoulder (Sep 27, 2011)

Catherine602 said:


> I thought that you felt you were a horn dog but you meant she thinks you are. So in that light, what I said does not apply to you
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No, I know I'm a horndog 

I don't chase her around all the time...but it has now been four weeks again...and...well...you can only take things into your own hands so many times before you would like some help :smthumbup:

I have a hard time walking past her without touching her...most times it's non-sexual, but I do rub her butt when she walks by and if the kids aren't around I will caress her boob... 

But when we kiss, I like to touch her cheek or run my fingers through her hair...I still see the 20yo that I started dating in 1991, she's still a hottie to me...

And she does return the touching and kisses, but nothing sexual...

Later.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

coldshoulder said:


> No, I know I'm a horndog
> 
> I don't chase her around all the time...but it has now been four weeks again...and...well...you can only take things into your own hands so many times before you would like some help :smthumbup:
> 
> ...


Looks like it may be time to invoke MEM's thermostat thread. Go out and read this and see if it resonates with you: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/mens-clubhouse/21278-thermostat-ultimate-barometer-your-r.html

You know, most of the advice you get comes from two basic aspects. The first are things that YOU can do - things you can do to improve yourself, things you can improve that are currently drains on your wife and marriage. All of those you can control.

The second are things that you cannot directly control, but that you may be able to influence. The thing you cannot control is your wife. SHE will need to come to the place where she understands that this is not only a need of yours, but that it's a very important and beautiful aspect of marriage. You can ENCOURAGE her, but she will have to make the change on her own.

I think that you might want to consider marriage counseling. There's a basic disconnect in prioritization in your marriage. In counseling, you can both begin to see each other's needs as legitimate and things that are impeding one or the other of you from making your mate a priority.

If you or she are adverse to MC, then would you be willing to work together through a marriage building program, like that on marriagebuilders.com. There you can identify the things you each do to kill the attraction of your spouse ('love busters') and things that you need from your spouse out of your marriage ('emotional needs').

Your wife may indeed have legitimate issues that need to be addressed - by you or herself or both of you - that you may be unaware of and that you may not be able to bring to the surface on your own. So, What's the Holdup? - Focus on the Family

Godspeed.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

coldshoulder said:


> I don't want to leave the relationship since everything else is pretty good, and leaving just for sex is selfish...we both feel that we do more than our share, which is probably a good indicator that we are both giving and taking...but I also don't want my sex life to grind to a halt in my 40s...
> 
> Any suggestions as to how to proceed? (is marriage counselling something that should be considered, or am I just being a horndog?)
> 
> Later.


Ok, this is a complicated and common problem. You, as the "sufferer" have to work to fix it using many simultaneous approaches.

The absolute first thing is for you to decide the following. Is sexual fulfillment a very important need for you in your marriage? Is it normal and pure for a male to desire his wife sexually? Is it normal and pure for a marriage to be a sexual relationship?

Your words indicate that a) sex is not a core need of yours, b) your wife is already "giving" alot, c) you are merely a horndog for requiring sex with your wife more than once every 6 weeks.

The first step for you is to know precisely what you want in your marriage and define it concretely to yourself. And then resolve to have that marriage in your life, one way or another.


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## coldshoulder (Sep 27, 2011)

Hicks said:


> Your words indicate that a) sex is not a core need of yours, b) your wife is already "giving" alot, c) you are merely a horndog for requiring sex with your wife more than once every 6 weeks.


a) This makes me think that maybe you haven't read the whole thread...the only reason I created this thread is because it is a "core need of mine".

b) In this comment, I was talking about household chores...cooking, cleaning, kids, maintenance, etc...not sexually

c) The horndog comment about myself was tongue in cheek, since that is how I percieve her image of my advancements.



Enchantment said:


> Looks like it may be time to invoke MEM's thermostat thread. Go out and read this and see if it resonates with you: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/mens-cl...er-your-r.html
> 
> You know, most of the advice you get comes from two basic aspects. The first are things that YOU can do - things you can do to improve yourself, things you can improve that are currently drains on your wife and marriage. All of those you can control.
> 
> The second are things that you cannot directly control, but that you may be able to influence. The thing you cannot control is your wife. SHE will need to come to the place where she understands that this is not only a need of yours, but that it's a very important and beautiful aspect of marriage. You can ENCOURAGE her, but she will have to make the change on her own.


Yup, that kinda nails it...except I have tried backing off and she seems to like the lack of intimacy...well, maybe not like but she doesn't react to it...I did that for a few months and all it resulted in was longer "dry spells"...she actually seems to not miss having sex, and acts like she almost forgot about it...

I kinda feel like we are growing appart even though I made the choice to stay home (take an office job, instead of working in the field). She says that she prefers that I am home and not working in camp...but our sex life was never better than when I was away for 10days at a time...come home for 4days and she was quite amorous, then gone for 10 more...you know, distance makes the heart grow fonder and all that...  ...but I like being part of my kids lives, and they really like having "Daddy" around as well...

I really think the key to my happiness is to start "Dating" my wife again...take her out on Friday nights and talking...everyday life seems to be getting in our way...our kids are now old enought that they can be left at home for a few hours (13, 9 & 9...twins) I have been thinking this for a while and am not sure why I haven't done it...we need to take some time for just us...or it will fall apart...

I'll let you know how it goes... 

Later.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

coldshoulder said:


> Yup, that kinda nails it...except I have tried backing off and she seems to like the lack of intimacy...well, maybe not like but she doesn't react to it...I did that for a few months and all it resulted in was longer "dry spells"...she actually seems to not miss having sex, and acts like she almost forgot about it...


Are you sure you lowered the thermostat as Mem recommends? We're not talking about simply not initiating sex and keeping everything else the same. That's what she wants. It's about not having long conversations with her. Not touching her in any manner. Generally being cool and curt with her. She will probably notice that and not be happy. She probably wants an upbeat, caring roommate. If you're not that guy, then she will likely notice and ask what's what.



coldshoulder said:


> I really think the key to my happiness is to start "Dating" my wife again...take her out on Friday nights and talking...everyday life seems to be getting in our way...our kids are now old enought that they can be left at home for a few hours (13, 9 & 9...twins) I have been thinking this for a while and am not sure why I haven't done it...we need to take some time for just us...or it will fall apart...
> 
> I'll let you know how it goes...
> 
> Later.


Date nights are good. But you need to destabilize your relationship, at least in her mind. You need to lose weight and increase your muscle mass. Make yourself more attractive to your wife and other women as well. At parties, spend time talking to other women. Give your wife just a little doubt as to the safety of her relationship (even if you have no intention of ever leaving her).

If she believes that you will happily accept a sexless marriage (less than once a month is clinically sexless), while continuing to meet her needs for a fun roommate, then she will have no motivation to change her behavior. If she thinks that other women desire you, two things will happen. First, that simple fact (preselection) will make her more sexually attracted to you. Second, she will be more motivated to keep you happy at home to ensure that you don't divorce and get your needs met somewhere else.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

coldshoulder said:


> a) This makes me think that maybe you haven't read the whole thread...the only reason I created this thread is because it is a "core need of mine".
> 
> b) In this comment, I was talking about household chores...cooking, cleaning, kids, maintenance, etc...not sexually
> 
> c) The horndog comment about myself was tongue in cheek, since that is how I percieve her image of my advancements.


I did read it. I pointed out all the ways you equivocated and rationalized why it was all ok, and I pointed out where your wife led you into thinking you were an abnormal male (horn dog).

Equivocating, rationalizing, allowing your wife or anyone else to label you as horndog, and questioning whether you are normal has to stop.

Your wife will more likely become sexually interested you when you are 100% confident of the purity and importance of sexual fulfillment as an emotional need for you in your marriage.

You can't allow her "work" that is aimed at meeting non core needs of yours to "count" when it comes to sexual fulfillment.


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## coldshoulder (Sep 27, 2011)

See, that's where you miss the point...I think we are all horndogs to an extent...women want to be loved in a romance novel kinda way, men want to be loved in a porn movie kinda way (and I don't mean a nasty one, but the couples type...softer porn)

Women want a mental sweep me off my feet kinda thing and guys want a physical love...personally her denying me sex or turning me down makes me feel like she doesn't find me attractive...I express my love for her in a physical way and she thinks I see her as a play thing...we forget that we each see it differently...

That's why I'm thinking that taking her out on dates and doing the daily grind (helping around the house with cooking and the kids) will aid in her wanting to be more physical...maybe I'm wrong, but I'm gonna try it anyway...

Anyone else think I'm heading down a misguided path? or do you think I might be onto something?

Later.


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## coldshoulder (Sep 27, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> Are you sure you lowered the thermostat as Mem recommends? We're not talking about simply not initiating sex and keeping everything else the same. That's what she wants. It's about not having long conversations with her. Not touching her in any manner. Generally being cool and curt with her. She will probably notice that and not be happy. She probably wants an upbeat, caring roommate. If you're not that guy, then she will likely notice and ask what's what.
> 
> 
> Date nights are good. But you need to destabilize your relationship, at least in her mind. You need to lose weight and increase your muscle mass. Make yourself more attractive to your wife and other women as well. At parties, spend time talking to other women. Give your wife just a little doubt as to the safety of her relationship (even if you have no intention of ever leaving her).
> ...


Her motivation will come in the form of an agreement that change in our relationship is coming...one form or another...I'm not going to start a mind game..."if you're gonna deny me what I want, then I won't give you what you want..."...it's childish...it sounds good when you are emotionally charged up, but it in the end will just cause extra resentment...then we will just both be unhappy...that is not my goal...

If she doesn't respond to the conversation about me feeling unattractive to her when she says no, or turns me down for some reason...then I will have to make a change in my own situation...I want to know what can be done to make her more receptive, and I am more than willing to do that...but if there is nothing, then unfortunately this isn't the life I want to be living...simple as that.

And what is up with everyone jumping on the weight thing?? Is everyone that shallow? My wife has gained about 70lbs since we were dating, and I still think she is a hottie...maybe she doesn't like the 40lbs that I have put on, but she doesn't say it in words...but I am working on losing weight, but I'm doing that for me...

Later.


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## Hicks (Jan 14, 2011)

coldshoulder said:


> See, that's where you miss the point...I think we are all horndogs to an extent...women want to be loved in a romance novel kinda way, men want to be loved in a porn movie kinda way (and I don't mean a nasty one, but the couples type...softer porn)
> 
> Women want a mental sweep me off my feet kinda thing and guys want a physical love...personally her denying me sex or turning me down makes me feel like she doesn't find me attractive...I express my love for her in a physical way and she thinks I see her as a play thing...we forget that we each see it differently...
> 
> ...


I don't think you are on a misguided path. I am trying to challenge you to get you to realize that your needs in the marriage are normal and justified. You do have to find ways to love her in ways she cares about, so she can be open to loving you in ways you care about (sexual). 

Date night and chores are helpful. But, rather than shoot in the dark I would recommend reading a book called the 5 Love Languages, and begin to formulate what you think your wife's main love language is.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

coldshoulder said:


> Her motivation will come in the form of an agreement that change in our relationship is coming...one form or another...I'm not going to start a mind game..."if you're gonna deny me what I want, then I won't give you what you want..."...it's childish...it sounds good when you are emotionally charged up, but it in the end will just cause extra resentment...then we will just both be unhappy...that is not my goal...
> 
> If she doesn't respond to the conversation about me feeling unattractive to her when she says no, or turns me down for some reason...then I will have to make a change in my own situation...I want to know what can be done to make her more receptive, and I am more than willing to do that...but if there is nothing, then unfortunately this isn't the life I want to be living...simple as that.
> 
> ...


I would note that actions, not words, are what you should be listening to. It is very common to say things to our spouse so as not to hurt their feelings. You tell her the meal she cooked is good, but when you do not ask for seconds, you could be saying something different. So make sure that you pay attention to everything she is communicating to you, not just what she is saying.


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## Enchantment (May 11, 2011)

You can take a quick quiz together to find out both of your love languages (related to the book that Hicks mentioned) at the following site: The 5 Love Languages | The 5 Love Languages®

At this point, it is likely that you are both missing the boat in understanding what the other needs. You can frame the conversation about doing the love languages together as not about just her understanding your needs, but for you to understand what hers are so that you can create the kind of environment that allows her to more freely express the sexual side of herself.

God Bless.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

coldshoulder said:


> Her motivation will come in the form of an agreement that change in our relationship is coming...one form or another...I'm not going to start a mind game..."if you're gonna deny me what I want, then I won't give you what you want..."...it's childish...it sounds good when you are emotionally charged up, but it in the end will just cause extra resentment...then we will just both be unhappy...that is not my goal...


That's fine. So you haven't tried the thermostat method and you don't want to. You probably just stopped initiating sex hoping that she would pick up the slack and it didn't work. You have to find a strategy that you are comfortable with and is effective. There is more than one way to skin a cat.



coldshoulder said:


> If she doesn't respond to the conversation about me feeling unattractive to her when she says no, or turns me down for some reason...then I will have to make a change in my own situation...


I wouldn't really expect a long-term solution from a conversation. You've already tried that. You have to change your actions to motivate her to change hers. I'm not saying NOT to have the conversation, but a change in your behavior should also occur to have the most effect.



coldshoulder said:


> I want to know what can be done to make her more receptive, and I am more than willing to do that...but if there is nothing, then unfortunately this isn't the life I want to be living...simple as that.


The good news is that there is usually something you can do. You should check out Married Man Sex Life for a ton of great information. Basically, Athol Kay (the blogger) preaches that there are two categories of behavior men exhibit. Alpha traits (social assertiveness, physical fitness, confidence) are sexually attractive to women. Beta traits (income, good dad, help with housework) are comforting for women. I would guess that you are heavy on the beta traits, so your wife views you as a great dad and roommate. But you're probably light on the alpha traits, so she's not very attracted to you. If you start upping your alpha traits, she may well respond by becoming more sexually attracted to you, and thus more interested in sex with you.



coldshoulder said:


> And what is up with everyone jumping on the weight thing?? Is everyone that shallow? My wife has gained about 70lbs since we were dating, and I still think she is a hottie...maybe she doesn't like the 40lbs that I have put on, but she doesn't say it in words...but I am working on losing weight, but I'm doing that for me...
> 
> Later.


Losing weight will make you more attractive to your wife. That's just the facts of life. It may not be fair, but you can take it up with the man upstairs.  If your wife is a 7 (on a scale of 1-10) and you're also a 7, then that's OK. But what will really spark her interest is if you go from a 7 to an 8, or 8.5. She will take notice and start upping her game to be worthy of you.


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## coldshoulder (Sep 27, 2011)

PHTlump said:


> I wouldn't really expect a long-term solution from a conversation. You've already tried that. You have to change your actions to motivate her to change hers. I'm not saying NOT to have the conversation, but a change in your behavior should also occur to have the most effect.


I don't expect change from just the conversation...but the conversation followed up with my actions of trying harder in the romance dept...that is something that I haven't been acknowleging as part of the problem (which it obviously is)...but if there is not change after that combination is initiated for a period of time...then maybe it will be time for more drastic measures.



PHTlump said:


> The good news is that there is usually something you can do. You should check out Married Man Sex Life for a ton of great information. Basically, Athol Kay (the blogger) preaches that there are two categories of behavior men exhibit. Alpha traits (social assertiveness, physical fitness, confidence) are sexually attractive to women. Beta traits (income, good dad, help with housework) are comforting for women. I would guess that you are heavy on the beta traits, so your wife views you as a great dad and roommate. But you're probably light on the alpha traits, so she's not very attracted to you. If you start upping your alpha traits, she may well respond by becoming more sexually attracted to you, and thus more interested in sex with you.


I can agree that I am mostly Beta oriented, but not totally...not sure that anyone falls completely into one category or the other...and I know that's not what you are saying, but I'm not sure my wife sees it that way...of course I could be totally clueless in this regard... 



PHTlump said:


> Losing weight will make you more attractive to your wife. That's just the facts of life. It may not be fair, but you can take it up with the man upstairs.  If your wife is a 7 (on a scale of 1-10) and you're also a 7, then that's OK. But what will really spark her interest is if you go from a 7 to an 8, or 8.5. She will take notice and start upping her game to be worthy of you.


I agree that losing weight or atleast toning up would increase her attraction to me...and I appologize for getting defensive about that, but it is a sore spot for me that I have been procrastinating about...my issue, no one elses... 

I have one more day of "side work" then I can start my plan for achieving a higher fitness level...

I mostly have to pay attention to how my actions affect her reactions to my advances...sometimes it is the little things that can have a lingering effect on how she percieves me...

Later.


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## coldshoulder (Sep 27, 2011)

My wife was up most of the night tossing and turning...came down with a cold two days ago and it seems to be getting worse before she gets better...so "date night" is postponed for a bit...I was hoping to get the talk out of the way tonight, but it will have to wait...I guess if I have waited 12yrs to say it, a couple more days shouldn't be a big deal...

I don't think she will be coming camping this weekend with me and the kids either...bed rest for her to get over this, then maybe we can have our "date night" on Sunday night.

Later.


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## PHTlump (Jun 2, 2010)

coldshoulder said:


> I don't expect change from just the conversation...but the conversation followed up with my actions of trying harder in the romance dept...that is something that I haven't been acknowleging as part of the problem (which it obviously is)...but if there is not change after that combination is initiated for a period of time...then maybe it will be time for more drastic measures.


Exactly. Most people have the conversation, the wife promises to change, and either nothing changes, or things change for a short time and then revert to "normal" pretty quickly. When your non-verbal communication is in sync with your verbal communication, then your wife will be more apt to believe that this really is important to you.



coldshoulder said:


> I can agree that I am mostly Beta oriented, but not totally...not sure that anyone falls completely into one category or the other...and I know that's not what you are saying, but I'm not sure my wife sees it that way...of course I could be totally clueless in this regard...


You're right nobody is completely one or the other. And in a long-term relationship, you need a mix or both traits. As for whether your wife thinks you're too beta, I think it's evident from her lack of desire for sex. Sexy people get sex. And alpha is sexy.

Another thing is that many women aren't even consciously aware of their desire for alpha traits. They truly believe that they want beta "nice guys." And consciously, they do. They want a husband that has a steady paycheck, helps with chores, is good with the kids, is supportive, etc. But the subconscious part of their brains that sends tingly signals to their naughty bits isn't impressed by beta traits. It wants alpha. So if you ask your wife if she would like for you to be more alpha, and she says no, she's probably lying. She may think she's telling the truth, but she's probably lying.


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## southbound (Oct 31, 2010)

that_girl said:


> I truly don't see the issue with having sex. For god sake it's at most (on most nights) less than 30 minutes and feels good.
> 
> My husband and I (even when he moved out for 3 months) have had regular sex-- about 4-5 times a week, sometimes more. We had it 5 times this weekend.


I've often thought the same thing and wondered if anybody else did. My x wife and I had different drives. She could go for six weeks at times, and that wasn't often enough for me. Like you, I never understood what the big deal was. 

When we had it more frequently, there were actually times when i wasn't "in the mood," but I did it anyway. Once the ball got rolling, it was far from being painful. Even if I wasn't in the mood to begin with, having sex was better than anything else I was doing at the time. It's like, "Ok, watch CSI or have sex with my wife"? "Change the oil in the car or have sex with my wife?" "Sit in the chair and stare at the wall or have sex with my wife?" Sex always seemed better to me, even if I wasn't in the mood. And, it wasn't like I was being asked by an ugly, smelly, woman off the street; she was my darling wife! I do a lot of things I don't always want to do, so why not have pleasure with my wife, even if not in the mood.

For her, however, when she wasn't in the mood, it was as though you were asking her to walk a mile naked at 0 degrees in a foot of snow, and she just couldn't find the willpower. :scratchhead:

I know, it's just a difference in people.


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