# Day One...



## DayOne

Edit, this WAS in the "Going through divorce or separation" section, but I have had it moved here as things have changed. 


Sept 20th 2014.
Today will be the 1st day of our separation. After 24 years, my Wife has chosen to move out. Although she doesn't actually move out until tomorrow, i'm staying at my folks house tonight and tomorrow to give her the space to move.

I was surprised when she announced she was moving, a couple of weeks ago, but not entirely. Things haven't been good for a while. We had both shut down due to years of doing a bad job of understanding each other, and failing to learn 'a better way' of discussing contentious issues (kids, money, etc) and the various trust issues. None of which had to with any infidelity, to be clear. I've never strayed, and I am sure as any partner can ever be that she hasn't either. 

We've had counselling before and it had helped, but the last time was several years ago, and i think perhaps we should taken it up again sooner. 

As far as the separation goes, we have spent time to work out the ground rules. Separate accounts (except where we have joint debts to contribute toward), no affairs, respect of each others space (She'll call if she wants to come by, I asked not to know where she is), kids aren't an issue as they are both over 20 at this point and one moved out years ago.

I think it could be a good thing (or perhaps i'm just telling myself that!), as i feel i also need a chance to step back and re-evaluate myself and what i'm wanting. 

I met her when i was travelling the world but still relatively 'young and dumb', so when this gorgeous woman knocked me off my feet i was happy to just go with the flow, and sure enough within a couple of months we were pregnant. I've been with her ever since, over half my life. 

So, instead of wallowing in the 'why me?!' i'm taking this separation as a chance, an opportunity, to take a new, unveiled look at where i'm at and where i want to be. 

I start counselling on Monday (not wasting any time). Not initially to discuss the marriage, but to help me figure out my head. I'm focusing on this first. Later i will look at the relationship. Hopefully by then she will be ready to do so too (she was totally against it when i suggested it recently, but seemed more receptive a bit later). 

It did bother me somewhat when she told me the rental agreement was 12 months, and she didn't know if there was an early termination option. But i may be reading too much into it. It's early days, and this is going to be a long road, i shouldn't be looking for potholes yet.

I've read the '180' and will be applying it's principles. Especially when it comes to maintaining distance. As i said initially i won't be helping her move, i'll be out of the house for the day. I did get her boxes from work to pack her stuff into, and took the bedroom TV off the wall and put the feet back on it so they (Wife and younger kid) can use it. I don't sleep in that bed anymore anyway. But that's all i did, apart from that I've stepped back and tried to impose no constrictions. 

I did let her know that this morning i would be just getting up and going to work (i'm in a different bedroom), but i wouldn't be saying goodbye. Not to ignore her, but because we'd both 'lose it' (as we have a few times in the last couple days). We've done a better job of discussing the separation than we have discussing anything else in a few years. 

But that's the way it goes sometimes, isn't it? Once you know what's coming, the fight just goes out of you. We've been quite calm with each other, and expressed ourselves in a less abrasive, incendiary way than we've been able to do for a while. 

The last thing i did before going to bed last night was to briefly go into the room she was in (i'd been out by the firepit) and give her one (last?) kiss, the first one in a long time and then leave the room. No words, just an uncomplicated expression of how i felt.


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## 2xloser

(a) I'm sorry; I know how painful this is
(b) It is not crystal clear, but seems from reading your post that you don't want this, and she does? 
(c) good for you for reading and looking inward, first & foremost. Regardless of where this marriage goes, this will benefit you enormously. So will The 180. Stay with it; it is hard.
(d) you didn't ask a question or for any input, but for my 2 cents, I'd say if you do want the marriage to be ultimately saved, you're doing mostly right, but just be sure she *knows* what you want; leave nothing assumed so that you do not look back at this time and doubt yourself or ask "what if?". Be sure she knows what you want her to know, because you told her directly -- no assumptions.

Remember to eat. Breathe (seriously; i found myself holding my breath all the time, inexplicabky). Be active when you can; isolation and inactivity are a bad combo for the brain. I feel for you, man. but you seem to have your head on straight; you will get through this.


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## DayOne

Do I 'want' this? No, obviously no. But it's here, it's happening and I choose to make the most of the opportunity. My only concern is financial. It's going to be tough, but we both have family (hers and mine) that support what we are doing. Knowing (hoping) that we can get to a place where we can be happy and go on. To wherever that place happens to be. 

Do I want the marriage to be saved? That's, to be honest, not my priority. My priority is for both of us to find happiness. If that turns out not to be as partners, well so be it. As trite as it sounds; if you love something set it free... 

I've thought about what happens if she decides to try and find the happiness she needs with someone else. And, in my heart of hearts, if she finds it there, truly finds it there, then I will be proud of her for finding the courage to take that journey.

As far as being alone, I have family, I have friends, I have my dogs. Who are slightly freaked out right now, as they sense something is very wrong. So I focus on them, reassuring them that it'll be OK.


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## Cubby

Just curious, DayOne, how do you know your wife hasn't strayed?


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## DayOne

I don't. But it's not a place I will allow myself to go to. As I said, I'm using this time to get myself straight, emotionally. If it transpires that she has taken that path, then I've made it very clear there will be no coming back.

I have a huge issue with adultery. My step dad did it to my Mother, my Uncle did it to his (now ex) Wife. Even my youngest did it to his fiance. (which contributed to where my Wife and I are now). She knows what the result would be if she went down that route. But I'll refer you to my answer above.


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## 3Xnocharm

DayOne said:


> Do I want the marriage to be saved? That's, to be honest, not my priority. My priority is for both of us to find happiness. If that turns out not to be as partners, well so be it. As trite as it sounds; if you love something set it free...


I think this attitude is amazing. Good for you! However...

My ex husband had remarried after we divorced, and after six years I think it was, his wife moved out. She had told him that they were going to go to counseling, work on things, etc. He even helped her move. Well, she had NO intention to try and save the marriage...I knew this, as she and I used to talk. She was afraid of him, and agreeing to "separation" and counseling was how she got out of the house. Once she did, she almost immediately filed for divorce. I thought this was a crappy way to do things, personally. So just...keep it in mind, so that if this is what happens with you guys, that it doesnt rock you too hard. 

Wishing you the best, your attitude will take you far.


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## DayOne

I've mentally prepared myself for that possibility (as much as anyone can). If she moves out tomorrow, then calls me on Sunday asking for a divorce (which would be mean as that's our 24th), so be it. 

I'll have too many beers Sunday night until I'm numb, then get up on Monday and go my initial counselling appointment. Moving on.


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## Cubby

DayOne said:


> I don't. But it's not a place I will allow myself to go to. As I said, I'm using this time to get myself straight, emotionally. If it transpires that she has taken that path, then I've made it very clear there will be no coming back.
> 
> I have a huge issue with adultery. My step dad did it to my Mother, my Uncle did it to his (now ex) Wife. Even my youngest did it to his fiance. (which contributed to where my Wife and I are now). She knows what the result would be if she went down that route. But I'll refer you to my answer above.


I don't know the backstory about you and your wife, but you might be interested in some cliches here on TAM that mostly turn out to be true regarding separation: 
1. A woman usually doesn't choose to separate unless she has another man lined up. Like a monkey not letting go of one branch until it has a firm grip on another. 
2. A woman pushes for separation so she can fook her affair partner free of guilt and away from husband. 
3. The time I've spent on this forum, I don't think I've ever seen separation work out. Mostly it causes a couple to disconnect even more.


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## DayOne

I've been fairly clear on where my heads at regarding fidelity. And I accept that it may, or is, happening. If it transpires, then it's game over. As many of the other stories on these sites show, you can't stop it from happening, you can only make a clear and desicive choice and what you will do if it does happen. 

I'm not going to lie awake at night wondering what may or may not be happening. I'm going to focus on me and my path.


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## 3Xnocharm

Cubby said:


> I don't know the backstory about you and your wife, but you might be interested in some cliches here on TAM that mostly turn out to be true regarding separation:
> 1. A woman usually doesn't choose to separate unless she has another man lined up. Like a monkey not letting go of one branch until it has a firm grip on another.
> 2. A woman pushes for separation so she can fook her affair partner free of guilt and away from husband.
> 3. The time I've spent on this forum, I don't think I've ever seen separation work out. Mostly it causes a couple to disconnect even more.


I left two marriages, and neither time was due to an affair. Women REALLY CAN want out of a marriage without it being about another man.


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## SamuraiJack

You seem to be doing well.
Keep posting and expressing yourself.

You will have good days and bad days and some that are pure gray all the way through.

All I can tell you is that this is the beginning of a tremendous growth spurt for you and it's worth the pain if you put the work into it.
I will be looking forward to seeing you grow.


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## Cubby

3Xnocharm said:


> I left two marriages, and neither time was due to an affair. Women REALLY CAN want out of a marriage without it being about another man.


Oh, I agree...that's why I said "mostly."


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## DayOne

All I can say about any chances for her screwing around is that she's home every night right after work and doesn't go out at weekends. She does occasionally go out to meet a girlfriend (and not that type of 'girlfriend'!) but is home within an hour or so, and these meetings are verifiable. Her history, before she met me, was somewhat less reputable, but if she's playing around she's really, REALLY, good at it. I would know. I'm the computer/phone geek of the household (it's my living).


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## Lostinthought61

Do the kids know where she will be living? And will they be stopping there to see her? Also as part of this separtation I am curious why dating each other once or twice a month is not part of the agreement as a way of re-establishing a connect...


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## DayOne

*Re: Re: Day One...*



Xenote said:


> Do the kids know where she will be living? And will they be stopping there to see her? Also as part of this separtation I am curious why dating each other once or twice a month is not part of the agreement as a way of re-establishing a connect...


Youngest (20) will be living with her. Oldest (23) has his own place. 'Dating' may happen, but down the road somewhere.


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## DayOne

Last night was tough. Drank a little too much 'liquid numbing agent' (which is rare as I don't drink to excess as a rule). 

Then as I was about to turn off the radio, they played Air Supply - I'm all out of love. Yeah, I lost it. I think (now, in the light of day) it was a good thing. It opened the floodgates and allowed me to release a lot of the emotion I've held back over the last few days. 

Woke up this morning (at 3:30am :-/) with a renewed resolve, to not be beaten by this. So as soon as it got light, I was out doing my folks yard work, cutting firewood (but not using the chainsaw, that might end badly. Due to distraction, not depression!) and walking the dogs. 

Lunchtime now, but back to chores after that. No time to stop, think and beat myself up. 

Going home later, after they've gone, and drawing up my plans, lists for what I want to fix and change at my house.


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## DayOne

Now at home. Alone.


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## honcho

It’s a really weird feeling the first few days in the house after one person moves out. Your emotions will play with you when you least expect it. Try and stay off the alcohol as it makes the emotional rollercoaster swing more. 

Try doing lots of little projects to keep you mind changing and focusing on different things. Doing physical work like you did this morning is good. You will have problems sleeping most likely and the more physical labor stuff you do the more tired you will be.

Try and get out of the house, spend time with your friends or family if you can. You wont be the life of the party but it helps to keep yourself from the mind games of replaying everything over and over sitting alone.


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## DayOne

Thanks for the words, honcho. I am working on the 'staying busy', by drawing up a plan to complete a long list of 'honeydos' (ironic name, given that she's now moved out!) around the house. Repair, and repainting all the things I have put off too long. 

I will be spending time with friends and family, both as a chance to not be alone and also to interact, discuss my thoughts on what is happening, has happened, and where I want to go from here 

However that won't be tomorrow. It's my sister's anniversary and she's having a party. But it is (or would have been) our 24th. Being in a house full of people celebrating wedded happiness is more than I could deal with, the day after she moved out.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno

3Xnocharm said:


> I left two marriages, and neither time was due to an affair. Women REALLY CAN want out of a marriage without it being about another man.


Me too. Twice. When you've had problems with a man, and are still married, the last thing you want is another man, particularly one whose standards are so low he'll fook a married women, or just wants a share of the (presumed) marital assets. Jeesh. Way to go, making out like a woman will always want to be with a guy, and the only reason to ever end a relationship is to be with a different guy. Can we say....maybe....projection?????????? :scratchhead:


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## sammy3

Op, 

Ive been living separately from my hub for over 3 years now. Im trying to come to terms with a almost 30 year marriage coming to rest. We are in constant contact w each other. We both have a separate apt as well as our main home. He comes in to ck on the house... 

Your are doing it so much smarter than we, as we just havent been able to break free as we should which leaves us in a horrible state of limbo. 

I wish you luck and wish I could follow your lead... 

~sammy


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## DayOne

Got up (after the most restful nights sleep i've had in weeks?), had breakfast while making today's 'to do' list, and got to work. 

Determined to focus on the 'now' and how i can make it better. Also started reading 'No more Mr nice guy'. It's making sense so far, at least to me.

She has still left quite a bit of stuff in her dresser drawers and under the bed. Do i tell her to get it all out? And give her a deadline?


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## 2xloser

Is it "important" stuff, or just miscelanneous odds and ends? 

If it's not a whole lot of trouble, maybe you could just box it up and tell her it's waiting and she can pick up on xx day, at yy time. Puts you in control. Gives her the message that you're disconnecting but doing it nicely enough to not cause extra friction unnecessarily. And gets her stuff out of your sight.


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## DayOne

Thanks for replying. It's just odds and ends. I'll wait until she contacts me (180) and then bring it up. 

There's not much of 'hers' left on show. I've boxed up any visible belongings she left behind, the bedroom now looks somewhat empty.

Edit: the only thing i find odd is that she appears to have left her 'jama bottoms and robe behind. Took her nightgown though.

Before the "OMG, she's fooling around" hoardes chime in, let me add this. She didn't move out by herself. She has moved into her new place with our youngest (20) son. If, IF, there is anything going on he would not stand for it. 

My guess is that she forgot them at the last minute, as she was watching the clock.


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## 2xloser

fwiw, I found it surprisingly, enormously freeing when I bought my own "decor" for the first time when I moved out of the marital home and into my apartment. I mean, really, really important to me. I ordered a bunch of pics of my son and had them printed out (in black & white) large sizes and put them throughout my apt; little things like bedding, a lamp here or there, little (and not costly) things really turned it into MY space.

I'm no decorator, and it isn't my point that I made it look great. I just knew it was *mine*, and it was very freeing. Just advice, but I was kind of shocked at the therapeutic impact it had early on for me.


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## DayOne

Had first individual counseling session this morning. Spend an hour offloading, and i think perhaps overwhelmed the therapist with a long list of things to work through! 

After that, went to work but my head is total swiss cheese after the session. A load of stuff got spilled out and it's lying all over the floor of my brain. :crazy:

Which is when of course the 'no contact please' Wife emails to thank me for the moving boxes i got her, and when would be a good time to pick up her bicycle (she rides to/from work)? :nono:

Contact less than 36 hours after moving out?!?! Going to have to clarify the no contact boundaries to her i think. :rules:

Edit: Now done.



> There seems to be several items you have left behind, in the dressers drawers. I haven’t nosed through it all out of respect for privacy, but did notice things like jamas, jewellery and shoes. If there is anything you need that you have left behind, let me know by the end of today and I will put it next to your bike.
> 
> After that I would request you honour our agreement not to contact each other for a while.


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## DayOne

2xloser said:


> fwiw, I found it surprisingly, enormously freeing when I bought my own "decor" for the first time when I moved out of the marital home and into my apartment. I mean, really, really important to me. I ordered a bunch of pics of my son and had them printed out (in black & white) large sizes and put them throughout my apt; little things like bedding, a lamp here or there, little (and not costly) things really turned it into MY space.
> 
> I'm no decorator, and it isn't my point that I made it look great. I just knew it was *mine*, and it was very freeing. Just advice, but I was kind of shocked at the therapeutic impact it had early on for me.


Kind of experiencing that myself. I'd already moved into a spare bedroom, but now i've made it 'my' room, fixed it up the way i want it. Around the house i've been taking down all the things that had made it ours, and turning it into my place. Going to end up repainting pretty much the whole house eventually.


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## DayOne

Experiencing a strange side effect since this all kicked off.

I've lost all interest in junk food. Used be fairly sensible with my diet, but things like flapjacks, pizza and chocolate would be my kryptonite. 

But in this last week, i've lost all interest in any of that. Sticking to small, healthy, regular meals and snacking on unsalted mixed nuts (handful for morning and same in afternoon) at my work desk, instead of large flapjacks and candy bars. 

No idea why this has occurred, but hoping to enjoy the benefits. :smthumbup:


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## Lostinthought61

I realize that is a type of journal for you Day One but i recommend that you keep either a private on line journal or a paper journal to write down you raw emotions and issues....it can be very cathartic to release how you feel, what your working through so that sometime in the future you can look back and see where you have been and where you are going. stay positive


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## 2xloser

Awesome. Be sure not to 'make up for it' with too much alcohol too often. I found that way, way too easy to fall into very bad habits so I eventually returned to eating poorly instead 

You're gonna be just fine. You know, one day at a time, bro. You'll have your ups and downs, keep the highs not too high and the lows not too low and you're gonna be aok.


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## DayOne

Thanks for that. Actually, i've reduced my alcohol intake as well. Never been much of a drinker anyway, but have found myself reaching for juice instead of beer and JD of an evening.


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## DayOne

Xenote said:


> I realize that is a type of journal for you Day One but i recommend that you keep either a private on line journal or a paper journal to write down you raw emotions and issues....it can be very cathartic to release how you feel, what your working through so that sometime in the future you can look back and see where you have been and where you are going. stay positive


Appreciate the feedback. One thing i used to do, before we met, was to write extensively. Observations, thoughts, emotions. Get it out of my head and on paper (back when the world still used paper!  ). That form of release, outlet faded out, but i have given serious thought about taking it up again.

I will continue to throw random updates and thoughts up on this thread. I consider this site to be an online, always on, group therapy session. And like any group session, if you don't seek out and be active the groups knowledge, assistance, support and advice, it's a waste of time coming. 

Hope that makes sense.


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## Lostinthought61

it does....and truly hope that you find your center with or with out her in your life, after all you may discover that you may have graduated from this marriage yourself and had not realized it. some of us look at our marriage a symbiotic relationship while others look at it as a parasitic relationship, its not until after we are free do we know the truth.


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## DayOne

That's why i'm stepping back. To figure me out first and, eventually, if i'd just be fighting towards something i may not actually want (Us).


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## Lostinthought61

Good for you...and you have one hell of a support system (TAM)

PS in the future if you have further questions about relationships and self post them in the general area, you might get more responses there.


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## DayOne

Drove up to the house this evening, and of course the Wife was still hanging around after getting her bike and a few other bits and trying to drag it all down the street. I drove past her, parked in my spot and just sat in the car, waiting. 

Eventually she got the idea i wasn't going to get out and go back to say hi, or offer to help her. Which is what i would have done in times gone by. And something i have to realize. It's her life now.

Score one for 180 and NMMNG!


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## farsidejunky

You did good. That is where it is helpful to remind yourself that she set this in motion. 

You are doing very well. Continue to improve yourself and do your best not to regress to the victim chair too long or too often. It will happen, but the key is to recognize it. Normally when recognition happens it is not hard to get out of your funk.

Keep posting, brother.


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## DayOne

Thanks for the affirmation.

Had a mild attack of 'poor me' last night, but got myself turned around by morning. Threw off the quilt and jumped out of bed with a 'BRING IT!' attitude. Crossed off several of the items i have on the DIY fix it list i've made, then drove to work energized and ready to beat the siht out of any problems i face today! :smthumbup:


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## Feelingsadnlonely

I admire you for your strength. You're doing a great job. Keep it up!

That is so attractive in a man.


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## DayOne

Feelingsadnlonely said:


> I admire you for your strength. You're doing a great job. Keep it up!
> 
> That is so attractive in a man.


Thanks. (though of course what i'm posting may not always reflect what i'm feeling, when i'm alone and have time to think... )

And, to be honest, my 'strength' has not been what it should be or should have been. I've make a lot of mistakes. In the marriage, relationships with my kids, and with myself. This WILL change. I WILL find the strength I need to journey through the rest of my life.

Just living day to day right now. Making to do lists; DIY items, household chore rota (what to clean on what day) to keep me focused and moving. I'm already finding a level of being organised I've not had before.

My counselling kicks off in earnest in a week or so, really looking forward to it. Not pinning all my hopes on the results it may give, but treat it as an opportunity to get my head opened up and see what's in there. A lot of crap to unravel, look at, and make sense of. 

Fortunately i'm not totally alone at the house. My dogs keep me company, even if they are very confused that everyone else has gone. And they get me out of the house and across the fields, a much needed diversion.

Not feeling particularly attractive or manly right now, but that will change once I refind my purpose and what i plan on doing going forward. Certainly not thinking about making the mistake of going into another relationship, whether it be an 'overnight' one or longer term. That's not where i'm at, right now it's all about me.


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## lenzi

DayOne said:


> Drove up to the house this evening, and of course the Wife was still hanging around after getting her bike and a few other bits and trying to drag it all down the street. I drove past her, parked in my spot and just sat in the car, waiting.


She's dragging her stuff down the street, you pass her, and park in your spot, and you wait.

What exactly were you waiting for?


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## DayOne

lenzi said:


> She's dragging her stuff down the street, you pass her, and park in your spot, and you wait.
> 
> What exactly were you waiting for?


For her to move on. She stood there waiting for me to jump out and help. Not going to happen. That's what she's used to, and that's what i've been used to doing. All the time, every time. 

That has to stop. At least for now. If she is determined to go it alone, that includes moving out. I told her i wouldn't help her leave on moving day, and helping her pick up a few bits a day later.

It is (was) part of me being a doormat, an 'NG'. Used to just being the guy that helps out, all the time, to the point where it was expected by others, and criticized if i didn't automatically do it all.


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## lenzi

Next time just get out of the car and go into the house as you normally would.


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## DayOne

lenzi said:


> Next time just get out of the car and go into the house as you normally would.


Good plan! Thanks. :smthumbup:


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## southern wife

DayOne said:


> Had first individual counseling session this morning. Spend an hour offloading, and i think perhaps overwhelmed the therapist with a long list of things to work through!
> 
> After that, went to work but my head is total swiss cheese after the session. A load of stuff got spilled out and it's lying all over the floor of my brain. :crazy:
> 
> Which is when of course the 'no contact please' Wife emails to thank me for the moving boxes i got her, and when would be a good time to pick up her bicycle (she rides to/from work)? :nono:
> 
> Contact less than 36 hours after moving out?!?! Going to have to clarify the no contact boundaries to her i think. :rules:
> 
> Edit: Now done.


I don't know your entire back story, but if you have children together, no matter their age, why the NC rules? :scratchhead:


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## DayOne

*Re: Re: Day One...*



southern wife said:


> I don't know your entire back story, but if you have children together, no matter their age, why the NC rules? :scratchhead:


Control. She says she wants space, also requests no contact, then breaks it almost immediately. That's a control thing. She wants to set boundaries, then walk right through them. If I had been the one contacting, I would have been criticized 

It's been that way for too long. Time to change.


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## DayOne

Having a hard time this evening.


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## Lostinthought61

Go to the movies....do not pass go.....go to a coffee shop with a book....be strong.


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## DayOne

Xenote said:


> Go to the movies....do not pass go.....go to a coffee shop with a book....be strong.



Thanks. Made it through that night, but the pull gets stronger as the time gets longer.


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## SamuraiJack

DayOne said:


> Thanks. Made it through that night, but the pull gets stronger as the time gets longer.


It gets better...promise.

Read up on the 180 for tips on how to keep keeping on...


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## DayOne

*Re: Re: Day One...*



SamuraiJack said:


> It gets better...promise.
> 
> Read up on the 180 for tips on how to keep keeping on...


I have it printed out and taped on the kitchen cabinets, so I see it every day! 

But it's the evenings, when I'm done rushing around, keeping busy, that my mind starts to wander.


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## honcho

With the length of your marriage these types of “urgues” or part of the process and can last for quite a while. Neither of you are used to the new routines or life without each other. 

Expect also at some point that you will feel the need to call or text her using an excuse like a simple household question or some other reason that you probably already know the answer to but at that moment it will seem like a good excuse to contact her. She will most likely do the same thing to you so don’t be surprised if that happens. 

The weekends will seem to be the hardest because that is when you most likely spend the most time together and you don’t have work to distract you. There is no magic answer on how to avoid that feeling of wanting to know how things are or see her and everyone has to find there own niche to resist the feelings.


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## DayOne

Thanks for the words Honcho. And yes, it is hard to have someone you've spent half your life with just be ...gone. 

But i'm sticking to the 180, i'm not going to reach out. I have read enough horror stories here and elsewhere about what happens when you reach first. When she's ready, she'll make contact. I don't imagine it will be pleasant as i am expecting a lot of venting of her frustration to roll over me before there's any calm.

I did notice that she blocked me on FB last night, but that seems to have been reversed this morning. Which tells me there's anger, but also some thinking going on.

I am filling my weekends with chores, and house cleaning. The only times i really seem to struggle is in the evenings, when the house is quiet, very quiet, and i have time to let my mind wander if unchecked.

I'm planning on joining a 24 hour gym, so when it gets bad i can go work it off.

Strangely enough, this does not happen when i get to bed. Perhaps because i'm sleeping in the spare room as i won't sleep in what was 'our' bedroom, which has made it easier.


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## LongWalk

Working out seems to be the cure.

You could take up a new sport. Squash. Rock climbing. Free diving.


----------



## DayOne

Going to sign up for swimming classes. Never been able to swim after a childhood incident, perfect time to learn. Overcoming fears!


----------



## LongWalk

Awesome. Key is learning to relax in the water so that you'll float


----------



## DayOne

Thanks. Waiting call back from local class. Scared sihtless, but pushing forward. Have a real fear of the water (don't even like putting my face under the shower), so beating this will be a huge boost.


----------



## DayOne

Rough time this evening. Checking the finances and realise that only having a single income is going to be way tighter than I originally thought.

Not panicking yet, still have some resources, but there be belt tightening ahead. 

Causing another sleepless night. :-/


----------



## farsidejunky

"No matter what happens I will be okay."

Have you read NMMNG yet? After I read the aforementioned statement in the book I wrote it down and put it on my bathroom mirror. I would refer to it when I started to feel overwhelmed. 

After a couple of months I actually started to believe it. I still need periodic reminders now but I am much better.


----------



## DayOne

I am reading it, and it's helping a lot. Doing the exercises and making notes, including copying down important sentences that I want to remember. Including that one. 

Previously the first paragraph would have been all I would have written, but adding the follow up showing a positive is new for me. 

But still new at being separated, being on a single income, and being nmmng, so it's still going to take a while to shake off the old me!


----------



## farsidejunky

One step at a time, brother.


----------



## DayOne

Going to have to pass her street this evening, twice. Walking to the swimming class and back. Going to be tough not 'find' her house (it'll be dark).


----------



## LongWalk

No big deal if you do it on the way there. Don't do it on the way back.


----------



## DayOne

> No big deal if you do it on the way there. Don't do it on the way back.


? 

Been thinking about it since posting and realised it's a self imposed ****/fitness test. If i cross that line even once, it'll be again, and again. Rule 10 of the 180: Do not spy on spouse. And no matter what self-justification i choose, that's exactly what it would be. Part of my plan is to build up my self respect, this would be a fail. 

And do i expect to see? Her, crying, alone on the couch? Or already with someone else? Neither of which I need to see. 

Nah. Hold my head up high, and walk on by. Concentrate on where i'm going this evening. Which, by the way, is my first ever swimming class. It's been one of my biggest fears, since i was a kid. Don't even like having the shower run on my face! But i realised that if i can face this and push through, I can also push through a lot of other barriers.

And on the way home, i'm stopping off to see my oldest boy at his bar for a drink. A much more positive way to end the evening.


----------



## farsidejunky

Great attitude, brother. Keep striving and moving forward.


----------



## DayOne

Whoops. Forgot my swim shorts are a 36, but i'm now a 32... Emergency alteration required!


----------



## DayOne

Empowered today. Feeling GOOD!


----------



## Fenix

Kudos to you, DayOne. Sounds like you are on the right track.


----------



## farsidejunky

How did swimming go last night brother?


----------



## DayOne

Scary as hell. The instructor eventually realised just much of a problem i have with it. (the bloodless face, shaking and clutching the wall with a death grip was a clue... )

BUT... I stuck it out, did what i could do, and completed lesson 1.

I WILL BEAT THIS! 

And on the walk home i had a drink with my oldest boy then took the long way round (avoiding her street, and the chance of making a stupid mistake.) and went via the grocery store to pick up more juice.

Looking forward to my first beer in 5 days, i've decided no alcohol during the week anymore.


----------



## DayOne

Oh, and i finally hit 200lbs even on the scales. This is down from 215 a couple weeks ago. Have thrown my 36" pants away as i now slide into 32"s! Smaller meals, no junk, and cut down on the beer.


----------



## farsidejunky

You are doing great, brother. Good job on maintaining the 180. 

When you have that celebratory beer, make it a good one; your favorite micro brew, etc. Savor it, and cut yourself off at one. You don't need the excess calories or the unintended consequences of buzzed emotional weakness.

Stay focused on you.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Good job on maintaining the 180.


Funny you say that, just got an email from her:



> Good afternoon,
> 
> Hope that you are doing well. I am expecting a letter from my employer in the next couple of days. If it comes to the house would you please let me know so that I can collect it. If okay, would you please put any other post that has come for me in a bag and I will collect it all at once.
> 
> Thanks,


Response



> Thank you for your email. I will keep a look out for the letter.
> 
> However, i have dropped off all your mail (last night) with *oldest son* as he also had a stack of mail, and as he is more likely to see you before than i am. It’s likely he may not have informed you yet. The gardening magazine has its plastic cover ripped off when the postman shoved in the mailbox, I have gathered up the contents and put them inside the magazine.
> 
> I would ask you again to arrange a mail redirect, so your mail goes to you. I've reminded *oldest son* to do the same for his mail as I have also already asked him before.
> 
> In addition i would ask that you contact me in future via my personal email rather than my work email.
> 
> a)	It’s the professional thing to do. I would rather our personal matters be handled via an email that is not accessible to co-workers (yours or mine).
> b)	I am taking next week off, so If you contact me I will not see it.
> 
> We also need to discuss some remaining Direct Debits and Standing Orders still on the joint and house account. I know you will be taking care of them , can you advise when that will be?


----------



## farsidejunky

Good, but too wordy. Also there are too many explanations. When she chose to move out, that eliminated the need for providing her explanations. Polite, direct, no explanations needed.

"I will keep a lookout for the letter. 

All of your recent mail was sent to the house with our son. 

Please submit the mail forwarding paperwork. 

Please send any future correspondence to my personal email.

Lastly, please let me know when the business is settled regarding the joint and house accounts as agreed upon."

Mine is still little wordy. Maybe some other posters can provide more concise suggestions.


----------



## DayOne

A good alternative. But, a little terse, imo. Remember, she *hasn't* stepped on me (Affair), or screwed up in any of the other ways other stories here show, and we've parted amicably. 

While there's no hint of "i miss you!" in my reply, there's also no need to be curt. A short, robotic reply like that comes across as exactly how it looks. 

If all the contact we have is via email every couple of weeks (for now), i see no reason to punish her in my responses. The only thing she has done 'wrong' (an arguable term in our case) is deciding to leave. 

I will leave a hint of warmth on our communications, unless future circumstances dictate otherwise. I will still have feelings for her (at this time). But at the same time be aware of overdoing it when emailing her.

Also, remember i'm working on being a positive, friendly person (which is the '180' i'm really shooting for, a turnaround from who i have been) who does not try to score points, be negative, find fault for the sake of it, nitpick or start fights. This includes my Wife. 

I have no anger towards her, or hold any bitterness. For me, the past is past. If anything i consider our separation to be the best thing that could have happened to me in 25 years, or longer. Even my coworkers, friends and family have remarked on how different i am already. How positive i am and that my voice has changed. It's no longer flat and monotonous. There's a spark to it. I laugh, naturally, and enjoy being around people. This is a new thing and i like it. 

If i hold onto the past and the anger it held, it will destroy my future.


----------



## LongWalk

farsidejunky said:


> Good, but too wordy. Also there are too many explanations. When she chose to move out, that eliminated the need for providing her explanations. Polite, direct, no explanations needed.
> 
> "Will keep a lookout for the letter.
> 
> Son has your recent mail.
> 
> Please submit the mail forwarding paperwork.
> 
> Please send any future correspondence to my personal email.
> 
> Lastly, please let me know when the business regarding the joint and house accounts is settled.
> 
> Your name (no love, regards, cheers, hiya)
> .



Far side Junky is 100% right. 

If you want to save your marriage, you must speak less, listen more and be decisive. Women want leaders, not nice guys. If she loves you but is not in love with you, you need to transform yourself.

Don't ever tell you are swimming. Don't FACEBOOK blog about your lessons. Take a holiday to a lake with your kids. They will tell her that dad learned to swim. Keep your mouth shut.

Are you FB friends with your wife?
If so, unfriend and block her.

Read MMSLP. 

Your wife is very far gone. Don't hope a lot.

Even when the separation deal says no dating the opposite is common.

Kolors WAW was email EAing as they got ready to split. Once he moved out she banged more than one guy in short time. Now they are arguing about custody and alimony.

Read Bagdon


----------



## DayOne

Thanks for the feedback. I will read that book! :smthumbup:

Edit: Bagdon?


----------



## farsidejunky

DayOne:

Your email still screams "needy". If there is any shot at this working (and I agree with LW the it is a LONG shot), she must believe you are moving on with your life. 

You are allowing her to see no matter how she treats you, you will still be waiting around and treating her like you always have.

How has treating her like you always have worked out so far?

Let your actions and your words tell her you are moving on as well. Be polite, but lose the warmth and explanations. You owe her none of it at this point.

When she calls you on it (and she will if you actually do it), tell her you are busy so you need to keep your correspondence short. See? Even your explanation tells her you are moving on.

Until she fears losing you it will never change.


----------



## LongWalk

Correct. Search TAM for Bagdon. He beat the odds. He is a model.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks both for the advice. It's appreciated.


----------



## DayOne

She still has some stuff here. Box it up and put it out of the way, or box it up and tell her when she's coming to collect it?


----------



## farsidejunky

Don't tell her when. Don't confuse indifference with hostility. 

One trick I have seen a lot of posters suggest is to open a mini storage unit and pay one month in advance. Then email her the unit number and combination to the lock, and let her know one month is paid. 

That allows you to continue the 180 without compromise.


----------



## LongWalk

It's just stuff. If she isn't worrying about it, why fuss with it.

Did you find and read Bagdon?


----------



## DayOne

Yes i did read it.


Thanks.


----------



## honcho

DayOne said:


> She still has some stuff here. Box it up and put it out of the way, or box it up and tell her when she's coming to collect it?


I boxed all the stuff up and just got it out of my way. It isnt unusual at all for them to not get everything but do it here and there. It gives them a reason to stop by the house either to see whats going on or to see you depending on the dynamics of the separation. 

I pushed for her to get the stuff out of our house and while she demanded items she would never pick it up. My situation was different in that the more junk she was hauling into the OM house the more he wanted to throw her out. 

For me boxing it all up and filling up the spare rooms in the house was best for me because I didnt need the constant reminders of our marriage and her. It wasnt fun to box it up but for me it was easier than seeing it leave piece by piece when she felt like it.


----------



## DayOne

Good words, as always, Honcho. In the end I chose to spent the afternoon having a massive 'cleansing' around the house. All of her stuff has been put into her dresser and closet. And I waded through the piles of crap in the attic, sorted all her stuff and put in one corner up there. (and there's a lot of stuff). If she stays gone, it will be easy for her to collect it all and be out of here. If she returns, well it'll be here.


----------



## farsidejunky

How was your Sunday?


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> How was your Sunday?


Good thanks. Another busy one. Nice day so worked from the 'outside chores' list. Stripping, sanding, and painting a bathroom cabinet, fixing gutters, trimming hedges, cleaning the garage.

Took the dogs for a walk. Lost one of them for 1/2 hour, then when we got home the other one found a hole in the front yard hedge and went for an extra walk.  (They're both tagged and chipped). But all resolved.

Weather is ****e today, so switched to the 'indoors list' and am sugar soaping the ceilings ready for a repaint.

Still No Contact with Wife, but did spot my youngest boy at the end of his block talking to a friend. Brief eye contact before i drove on by. I haven't had an urge to take an 'evening walk' for a couple of days...

Counselor this afternoon.


----------



## DayOne

So.. the letter she was waiting on showed up. Waited until the evening (ie several hours later) to email her with:

Subject: Your letter

Body: is here.


Too long?


----------



## farsidejunky

Clever. How do you intend to get it to her without breaking the 180?


----------



## DayOne

Damn, you're quick! (Stalker?)
That was yesterday.

Her reply earlier today: 


> Thanks, would you please put it in a bag and leave it on the front gate. I will pick it up on the way back from work.


I'm holding off on a reply until around 17:30, which will along the lines of:



> OK.



Edit: still not entirely convinced about the short, cold response method yet.


----------



## farsidejunky

Bored and riding shotgun with a coworker. Are you leaving it at your gate or hers?

Edit to your edit: you have to make the decisions regarding your interactions with your wife. It is your life not ours. However, whether you can earn her back or not, you need to focus on detachment. Let me reiterate the detachment is not primarily to win her back, but for you to be able to take care of yourself. Winning her back is sometimes a consequence of detachment. For what it's worth I think it's a long shot.


----------



## DayOne

It won't be at my gate. But there's a more secure location i can leave it (away from the rain and curious fingers on our busy street), that i will point her at (so it will be a couple more words than "OK") 

I won't go to her house, for the reasons i mentioned previously.


----------



## farsidejunky

Good. Keep it up. In the meantime, when she texts or email emails you, make sure you take your time responding. And again, keep it short and to the point.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Edit to your edit: you have to make the decisions regarding your interactions with your wife. It is your life not ours. However, whether you can earn her back or not, you need to focus on detachment. Let me reiterate the detachment is not primarily to win her back, but for you to be able to take care of yourself. Winning her back is sometimes a consequence of detachment. For what it's worth I think it's a long shot.


Taken on board, Thanks. And i am accepting that we are done already, and to that end i'm working on moving forward (had a big realisation regarding that in counselling yesterday). But, as i've alluded to before, there's a difference to being detached and a cold, indifferent ahole.


----------



## farsidejunky

What realization came about in counseling yesterday?


----------



## DayOne

We met in September, by Xmas 'we' were pregnant, married the following November. Part of how i feel the way i do about myself is the feeling that i was trapped into a life that i may not have wanted, but one that was forced on me. As i explained to the therapist, one of my biggest regrets in life was to have unprotected sex with a woman i barely knew.


----------



## DayOne

I was a naive 23 year old (1 previous girlfriend) who has just moved to another country as my first stop on 'seeing the world'. When a hot looking local girl showed an interest, my 'little brain' took over my big brain and it was game over. 

After the kid showed up, we looked into how to get me a green card. The attorney advised that getting married was the easiest way. 24 hours later we were in Vegas, after her Dad arranged everything by phone. 

Forget 'shotgun wedding', i got nailed by a 50 sniper rifle. Never even saw it coming.


----------



## DayOne

So we were shackled together at this point. We made it work, even actually loved each other. But the foundation was never laid, and we never really worked on retrofitting it. All we ended up doing is taking out our frustrations, anger, and lost dreams on each other. 

She gave me the option to walk away when she found out she was pregnant, but i declined. I did 'the honourable thing' instead. And i'm glad i did that at least. I've had long talks with my oldest boy as he has felt he was a 'mistake', but as i've told him, he is one of the best things that ever happened to me and i wouldn't change a thing about him being born (except perhaps the timing).


----------



## farsidejunky

Thanks for the explanation. It definitely explains a lot of what you two have gone through. 

Your attitude in this situation is great. Continue the 180 and pushing yourself to be better.


----------



## DayOne

Struggling this evening. Came home after an evening at my sisters and the mail hadn't been picked up. I brought it back in as it was 10pm and i wasn't going to leave it out all night (bank statements etc). 2 minutes later she knocked on the front door. 

First time I've seen her in over 3 weeks. There wasn't much of a conversation (She: "Sorry to bother you"). and she left.

Screwed me right up. It all came rushing back. I've been doing such a great job of holding it all at bay and tonight, emotionally, i'm back at square one. Taken something to help me sleep (Nytol, non prescription sleep aid), or i'll have no chance as my brain will be bouncing off the walls all night.


----------



## farsidejunky

Stalking again...

Sorry you had to see her but it was inevitable. Take heart in the fact that you did well. 

Remember what you covered in therapy and try to stay busy, brother.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks. Stalk away. Good to get a response.

It's chewing at the back of my mind that she came by at 10pm. She gets off work around 6-6:30 (her office is 10 minutes away and she passes by to get to her apartment).

You don't want to think it, you fight it, but it keeps ticking. Date?


----------



## Nucking Futs

farsidejunky said:


> Stalking again...
> 
> Sorry you had to see her but it was inevitable. Take heart in the fact that you did well.
> 
> Remember what you covered in therapy and try to stay busy, brother.


I agree. She waited until you were home to come get it.

Next time leave it with your son at his bar. Don't give her anything she can use as an excuse to see you. If she wants to see you let her be honest about it.


----------



## Nucking Futs

DayOne said:


> Thanks. Stalk away. Good to get a response.
> 
> It's chewing at the back of my mind that she came by at 10pm. She gets off work around 6-6:30 (her office is 10 minutes away and she passes by to get to her apartment).
> 
> You don't want to think it, you fight it, but it keeps ticking. Date?


No, she's stalking you.


----------



## DayOne

I'm also cancelling her standing orders and direct debits that are STILL active on our (now my) joint accounts. I've asked her to sort it out, but she hasn't yet (3 weeks is long enough). I won't get bit just because she won't take care of business. A couple of them may still go through as it was too late. So i will have to get the money back from her. (Not looking forward to the :soapbox: when she realises)

No other activity on the accounts except mine in the last week.


----------



## DayOne

Nucking Futs said:


> I agree. She waited until you were home to come get it.
> 
> Next time leave it with your son at his bar. Don't give her anything she can use as an excuse to see you. If she wants to see you let her be honest about it.


That's what i will do. If she'd come by at the agreed time, i wouldn't have been here. Now i know how it affects me i will drop all mail at the bar. Kinda pisses me off though. I've told her to have her mail redirected, but she still hasn't done it. NMMNG means i shouldn't be taking care of her damn mail, running it around town.


----------



## DayOne

Nucking Futs said:


> No, she's stalking you.


No, the stalker reference was an earlier joke with myself and GaryLarsonJunky.


----------



## DayOne

I know it 'got to me' as it's 20c in the house and i'm freezing. A reaction i get to extreme stress.


----------



## LongWalk

You are like a car that someone has driven for years. She can't believe your not hers anymore. She didn't want you and is not interested in keeping you clean or changing the oil, but you go back a long ways.

Keep up the NC. You are doing a good job. 

The terse emails are very good. She will be impressed by the subject content economy. Think about work. The very important big cheeses often send out simple emails.

"OK"

end of message

"Let me know if I have to do anything else."

end of message

"Inform XX who should be in loop."

end of message

This style of reply lets the receiver know. I read your report. Here is my decision. Let's not waste words. Get it done.

Your WAW will be impressed but that may not lead to her falling back in love with you. At least not enough to seek reconciliation.

You will always be connected. You became parents together for better or worse.


----------



## DayOne

Ironic that you use a car example. We moved back to this country 12 years ago (i'm from here, she's not), and she STILL hasn't gotten round to getting her license! 

Always having to be the taxi/chauffeur of the family caused anger and resentment in me that would occasionally burst out, and then I'D be called the bad guy.


----------



## LongWalk

Well, she fired the chauffeur. Tough luck for her.

You should ride a bike to enjoy freedom.

Your WAW is a mixture of good and bad. Aren't we all. Now you don't have to put up with her BS anymore. It hurts that she is disloyal, but you cannot nice your way back into her life. Go forward and you may find a better woman in time. Recognize that you must go through a period of mourning for this relationship.

Drink less than you usually do. Exercise more.


----------



## DayOne

I get out a lot anyway. Walking miles with the dogs. And have started running too. 

She has a bike. That and the bus are her only forms of transport (now). 

Already cut way down on the drinking. None during the week anymore.


----------



## farsidejunky

How often do you get out around other people? How social are you?


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> How often do you get out around other people? How social are you?


Not much, and not very. But thats not new.


----------



## farsidejunky

Time to step out of your comfort zone. Start exploring different social ways to enjoy your hobbies. It will help you tremendously in what you are going through.


----------



## DayOne

True. Thanks. I'll look into it.

Right now i'm working on fixing up the house. 
a) to make it 'mine' and that it's my space, not ours. 
b) to build myself back up by settings goals, tasks, putting them on paper. accomplishing them and feeling good about it. Just came in from paint stripping a door down ready to repair and repaint it. Earlier today i was painting ceilings and restoring a bathroom cabinet. 

BTW, the letter i think she was actually waiting for came today...


----------



## farsidejunky

Time to use the lesson you learned from yesterday. If she can't keep herself from your space , do it for her.

ETA: make sure you either text or email her where you left it to prevent her from coming to your door.


----------



## DayOne

I'll drop it off with the kid on the way to swimming tomorrow evening. She can pick it up from there when she next see's him. As she hasn't brought it up, i won't be reaching out to tell her it's here.


----------



## farsidejunky

Checking in on you (stalking) brother.


----------



## DayOne

Wasn't a good evening yesterday. I'd arranged with my oldest that he would come over at 4 to pick up the rest of his stuff and i'd drive it over to the bar (his apartment is above the bar).

6pm comes and goes... no sign, no calls. 

I take the mail and some things of hers that she'd left behind and went to the bar. He was still asleep! Pissed, i left the bags i'd taken there and just left. Still no apology from him.

And i've got a streaming cold, so running or swimming last night. Early night and big dose of Nyquil instead.


----------



## DayOne

Was going to say she hasn't been in touch, but realised she's texted me. 



> Hi, has any post come for me this week? If so, can I pick it up on my way back. I am hoping to get away by at least 6: 30 but may be a bit later. If ok, please let me know where you will leave the post. Thanks


Quite a long communication! 

I replied back



> All your mail is with oldest son.




Annnnnd now back to enjoying the rest of my day. Cold or not, there's painting to do.


----------



## LongWalk

Sorry you're under the weather.

if she does not arrange to change her address that is a sign of codependence.

Your separation speaks for divorce. She is not interested in fixing your marriage. The chances of reconciliation are just 6.7 percent. Stick with the 180 and you can reevaluate the situation in a few weeks time.

Your son missing the meeting, do think that is because his mother disrespects you and he is following her lead?

Keep posting. You're going to make it. Your life is going to be better. You're going to be drown proof before Christmas.


----------



## DayOne

LongWalk said:


> Sorry under the weather.
> 
> if she does not arrange to change her address that is a sign of co-dependence.
> 
> Your separation speaks for divorce. She is not interested in fixing your marriage. The chances of reconciliation are just 6.7 percent. Stick with the 180 and you can reevaluate the situation in a few weeks time.
> 
> Your son missing the meeting, do think that is because his mother disrespects you and he is following her lead?
> 
> Keep posting. You're going to make it. Your life is going to be better. You're going to be drown proof before Christmas.




More likely to be signs of laziness on her part, or not wanting to face what's going on. Which why i'm taking the steps instead, cancelling her direct debits and will be marking mail as 'return to sender'. 

Early days yet. Too soon to decide if divorce is an option.

Son not missing the 'meeting' is more likely due to him being a flake (no the first time he's failed to be on time, that includes work). No other signs of him picking a side, yet.


----------



## LongWalk

You don't have to return to sender, which might cause problems for her. Just fill a sheet of A4 paper with her address. When letters come cut out a little square and paste it on and repost them. Do it for a couple of months and then slow down the forwarding time. Start sending them once a week in a single large envelope. At the end of the second month, add a note:

"This the last time I am going to forward your business mail."


----------



## LongWalk

Also, don't use your son as the channel of communication. He may be unhappy with the your family's collapse and not enjoy being drawn into it.


----------



## DayOne

LongWalk said:


> Also, don't use your son as the channel of communication. He may be unhappy with the your family's collapse and not enjoy being drawn into it.


Fair point. Thanks.


----------



## honcho

DayOne said:


> Was going to say she hasn't been in touch, but realised she's texted me.
> 
> 
> 
> Quite a long communication!
> 
> I replied back
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Annnnnd now back to enjoying the rest of my day. Cold or not, there's painting to do.


Having been down this road of your becoming a postman for her your path of least resistance now would be to just fill out the change of form for her and be done with it.

She isnt doing this because she is lazy, she needs and wants to have an avenue to contact you more than anything. It also keep you thinkng about her is a little way checking the mail for what is hers and what is yours. Asking or telling them to change it just gets you nowhere. 

At some point she will also probably start saying you are withholding her mail or have opened it. Again it justs gives them an easy avenue to make contact or start a fight over nothing.


----------



## DayOne

Back in the day, when i actually WAS a postman, redirections were free. Now it costs money (£24). 

And just like the storage locker idea a few posts back i won't be putting my hand in my pocket to deal with things she won't, can't take care of. 

I've been thinking about it this evening, and i think what i'll do instead of leaving out for her to pick up or dropping it with our kid, i'll make one mail run, per week, to her office and leave it with reception. It's on the way to/from work (kinda) anyway.

I don't want her contacting me (except for emergencies as previously agreed), as it DOES get to me. I'm not saying that she's trying to F with my head, but rather that she maybe doesn't realize that it affects me.


----------



## honcho

DayOne said:


> Back in the day, when i actually WAS a postman, redirections were free. Now it costs money (£24).
> 
> And just like the storage locker idea a few posts back i won't be putting my hand in my pocket to deal with things she won't, can't take care of.
> 
> I've been thinking about it this evening, and i think what i'll do instead of leaving out for her to pick up or dropping it with our kid, i'll make one mail run, per week, to her office and leave it with reception. It's on the way to/from work (kinda) anyway.
> 
> I don't want her contacting me (except for emergencies as previously agreed), as it DOES get to me. I'm not saying that she's trying to F with my head, but rather that she maybe doesn't realize that it affects me.


Yes she is trying to mess with your head a little and yes she does realize it affects you. Dont kid yourself on that.

In the been there done that, I tried the exact plan you want to try and it wont work. It ends up becoming way more of a headache than you realize depending on how much "drama" your spouse feels like creating. It also doesnt get you around the your hiding her mail, you opened up something nonsense.


----------



## DayOne

Early start today. 250 mile round trip to deliver the car had to sell to the buyer (he paid what I asked and also all expenses). 

Got a text from her while on the train home. She noticed that I cancelled her direct debits and wanted to know why. Also thinks I'm gradually pushing her out of the house as I delivered some of her stuff to the bar. 

The reason is simple, I'm covering myself. Financially with the direct debit cancellation and emotionally with putting her stuff where I can't see it. 

Texted her back to let her know I'll be having lunch at a diner on the way home, if she wishes to join me there so I can give my reasons. If not, I'll email it to her later.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



DayOne said:


> Early start today. 250 mile round trip to deliver the car had to sell to the buyer (he paid what I asked and also all expenses).
> 
> Got a text from her while on the train home. She noticed that I cancelled her direct debits and wanted to know why. Also thinks I'm gradually pushing her out of the house as I delivered some of her stuff to the bar.
> 
> The reason is simple, I'm covering myself. Financially with the direct debit cancellation and emotionally with putting her stuff where I can't see it.
> 
> Texted her back to let her know I'll be having lunch at a diner on the way home, if she wishes to join me there so I can give my reasons. If not, I'll email it to her later.


Not suggested. She knows why. She just was naive enough to think she could be "separated" from you and still have you be her care taker.

Very simple response.

"You asked for separation. I am honoring your request."

Meeting with her puts you back in the emotional yo-yo.

ETA: was her wanting a separation from you a very large yet subversive sh!t test?


----------



## DayOne

Could be. She declined to meet at the diner, as "she was afraid she'd cause a scene"... 

So I suggested me meet in front of a local church instead (and no, I wasn't thinking about Dracula or Highlander at the time!) 

I did say that if her plan was to" make a scene ", yell at me and make me the bad guy, not to show up. I told her I will only listen to her concerns in a calm, respectful manner. And I will afford her the same courtesy. 

I am waiting there now. More updates later.


----------



## farsidejunky

I still don't know why you need to meet. Everything I have seen so far could be discussed by text, and that would be better for you.

Why are you pushing to meet her?

ETA: Keep your cool in the meeting. Every answer to her "Why?" should be something to the effect of "This is what happens when people separate".


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> I still don't know why you need to meet. Everything I have seen so far could be discussed by text, and that would be better for you.
> 
> Why are you pushing to meet her?


Edit: Deleted.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



DayOne said:


> Edit: Deleted.


You okay?


----------



## LongWalk

Don't meet her.

Don't engage her in discussions about your relationship. You can see that action gets her attention. Keep acting. Cut out the talking.

If wants to be with you, she will send you some signal.

Relationship discussion – you're right, I'm wrong or I'm right, you're wrong is not love.

"I want to come home."
"I want be in the same bed with you."
"I want to work things out."

Those are discussion starters. The other stuff is just extended squabbling.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks for the feedback. Both of you. But i'll be offline for a while. As much as i appreciate your advice, I have to digest what happened today without any outside influences.


----------



## farsidejunky

Okay, brother. We will be around when you need us. Continue to take care of yourself.


----------



## DayOne

Alright, yesterday.

Well, we met. And initially it went as i suspected. She was pissed about me cancelling the direct debits, and handing over some of her stuff to oldest boy.

I listened to her blow off steam, for a while, without shutting her down. But it gave me the information i needed as to why she was pissed, and how i could respond. When she moved out she setup a new bank account, as I had requested and we had agreed. However, as well as a new account, she needed to provide proof of billing address, which as she had only just moved was harder to come by, in order to change direct debits to a different account. She had moved her most recent paycheck to her new account from our joint account, which i already knew ( i monitor our old accounts, there's nothing 'unusual' going on there ). BUT, what she hadn't told me was that she'd put some of that paycheck aside to cover any direct debits that might go through before she'd transferred, cancelled them. 

We went back and forward over that for a while until we both accepted that, as far as communication over money goes, we'd both F'ed up. She hadn't told me about making a buffer zone of cash for the direct debits, and i hadn't told her i was cancelling them. Should i have just arbitrarily cancelled the debits? Possibly not, but as i explained to her, I was covering my a$$. If all of them had gone through, it would have hosed the bit of money i had left in there. Eventually she 'got' that, and the fact she should have told me she'd put a plan in place to over the debits. She has now all she needs to take care of any remaining financial matters. Her cell account is in my name so she couldn't transfer it, so i called the cell company later (with her bank details) and took care of it. 

To me, at least, this was an instance when No Contact caused more unneeded problems that it may have solved.



Next we covered the 'why' i was handing over more of her stuff (via oldest boy). She was worried (and angry) i was gradually moving her out of the house. The items i had dropped off were; her robe, a quilt she made, some house decorations, her christening cups, and 3 bags of baking, cake making items. 

When we were going round the house prior to her moving out, deciding what goes and stays, she mentioned that she would be doing a lot of baking, hence the baking items. The house decorations because they were reminding me of her every time i saw them, same for the christening cups and quilt (which hang on a display cabinet at the top of the stairs and i see them every time i go up and down).

I explained to her (calmly) that I was not, in fact moving her out. If that was the case, i would be moving a sh1t load more than 4 grocery bags of stuff! The reason for handing over some of her things (the ones i haven't put in the closet) as that i can't have reminders of her all over the place are obvious. i'm trying to move on, seeing 'her' everywhere hinders that process. She 'got' that too.

Which brought us on to the 'why' she left. 

She felt that she could no longer deal with my anger, frustration, controlling ahole attitude. It had sucked the life out of her to the point where she felt invisible and worthless. And i see where's she's coming from with that. 

I had gotten into a cycle of setting unrealistic expectations, goals, not having them met, getting pissed off, and turning that anger into setting more unrealistic expectations, which wouldn't be met..... 

For instance, her weight. She's been overweight since kid #1, never really lost it. Until she went to weightwatchers and lost a LOT of the weight, looked really good. Right after that she lost her job, and couldn't find another one for over 6 months. She's never been in that situation before and it really depressed her. the weight came back on. 

When she was employed again I suggested weightwatchers as it has worked before and it might help. Then, when she didn't go, i told her to go. Then eventually i lost patience and told her she was ugly. 

Yeah, i'm a d1ck.

As i said to her yesterday, i was so lost in being angry at everything not going my way, not being simple, easy that i no longer saw the harm i was doing to us. But i'm beginning to see it now, and that is (in part) why i am going to therapy. To work on the causes and issues that had made me what i am, and resolve them. 

I told her i'm not working on us, and i accept that there may no longer BE an 'us'. Instead of "engaging her in discussions about your relationship", i was clear that there isn't one. At least, not for quite a while. I'm working on me. I'm in counselling, reading self help books (Though didn't mention NMMNG, MMSLP, etc by name) and support group (this one anyway).

She told me that since she moved out, she's cut down from a bottle+ of wine per night, to less than one per week. I let her know that I've also cut out drinking during the week. I think that admission made us both realize just how much we had been 'hiding' in bottles, in alcohol, to numb the pain we were both in. 

(In fact i bought my first bottle of Jack in three weeks last night, and hated it. Even the beer i tried to drink, i couldn't finish the one bottle. They both made me feel slightly sick. I finished the evening drinking cranberry juice. It may be time to quit altogether. I guess i no longer have the same pain to mask.)

I told her that we need to continue maintaining a separate space (though improve communications when needed, to prevent what happened above. Low Contact, rather than No Contact), as we both need time to heal, to review, to move forward. This includes things like Facebook (yeah, she'd noticed and didn't like that either) as it's the same as peering though the window to see what the other person is doing. If our spaces, our lives, overlap and interact it will make it difficult to make the break required to move on (escape velocity?) She 'got' that too. eventually. 

She also told me that oldest son is uncomfortable being in the middle, and i agreed it's unfair. She has submitted the redirect for the mail. She grumbled about the cost, but i chose not to remind her that it's a cost she chose when she moved out. Pick your fights. So no more mail coming here. 

There was a brief flare up when i told her about oldest son sleeping through our arranged moving time, and lack of apology. "he probably didn't apologize, as you 'never' (she uses that word, a lot, as well as 'always') apologize". THAT got got shut down, real quick. As i reminded her, oldest son is 23 and accountable for his actions. But stuck to stating my position calmly but firmly, and then moved on. 

Was it a successful meeting? I hope so. Did we resolve all our issues? Of course not. Did we achieve more in half an hour than we would have in a weeks worth of email contact? Absolutely. Will it be a regular thing? No. 

Some of the NC advocates will be bouncing up and down over us having a face to face, and that's your 'right'. GaryLarson, i deleted my reply as it was....less than pleasant or constructive and written just after i got home from the meeting still full of emotion. But it was basically a long version of "butt out". However i realised that was unfair. You and LongWalk are trying to help, in your own way. And, as much as i don't have to accept all you post, the same goes vice versa. Some may not agree with my choice yesterday, but to me, it was a good thing.

It eased a lot of tension that had built up due to poor communication on both our parts, opened a door to a path i have to go down (my anger, controlling issues), and redefined some badly written 'ground rules'. Nobody 'won' anything, nobody 'lost' anything, but I and she both moved forward.


----------



## DayOne

One last thing. I did send her a 'thank you for meeting with me' text late last night. Not convinced it wasn't a step too far. But it was a one off and i'll won't contact her again except for the criteria above.


----------



## LongWalk

DayOne,

That seemed like a positive interaction. Don't misunderstand. The goal of getting advice is to affect positive change. You are doing that. The most important thing that came out in the meeting was that you were not needy and begging for reconciliation. That is unattractive. It will not get your wife back.

In your discussion you kept things business like. Okay, you did have some relationship discussion but you both avoided going in circles.

The mutual admission that you both have identified alcohol as a problem in your lives is really important. There is really smart and interesting guy on TAM who was knocking back the booze. He has admitted that it was a problem, a big step for him.

Your wife is an alcoholic. No wonder she is overweight. Even if you don't consider yourself dependent on alcohol, you might want to go to Al-Anon. 

Your life is in turmoil but you seem to be facing that pretty honestly. Keep drinking cranberry juice. Work out. Does your insurance cover marriage counseling? IC?


----------



## DayOne

Thanks for the reply. Yes, a lot of positive came from it. If our future discussions can be done in the same way, it will help us both. Too much of the past ended up in arguing, screaming and unresolved issues (avoidance). 

As i said before, i don't know whether there is a future for us, and i made that clear yesterday. But i will treat any improvement in the way i treat and work with my current (ex)partner as lessons for any future relationships. 

Yes, the booze was an issue. But it appears that as we have both moved out of what is the very definition of a toxic relationship, we have also moved on from the destructive coping method we had both sunk into. (alcohol). If i find it becomes a coping mechanism again, i will seek help. 

Her weight issue is a problem. She has bad knees (arthitis), brought on in part, i'm sure from the extra 50+ lbs. However, part of the weight issue is due to depression. As i said before i did not deal with helping her at all well. In fact, very negatively, no matter how much i convinced myself otherwise at the time. Bad diet, no exercise, booze, and a negative husband. Not a good combo. 

Another example of my making the wrong choice: I walk, hike. A lot! (over 500 miles a year). I would try and get her to come with me, occasionally. But then get pissed off if she didn't do as i'd asked. 

She signed up with a gym a short while back, and invited me to go with as a training partner. Unfortunately i took my anger at her not walking with me (aka doing what *I* wanted) and refused to do what she wanted. 

Dumb, dumb, dumb. 

I've held off on joining a gym until my finances are more stable (though I've taken up running and swimming as well as the walking), but i will sign up this week.


I've taken the money from the car i sold on Saturday and put it to one side to cover counselling. My employer does offer limited counselling, but have totally failed in getting back to me to set it up.


----------



## farsidejunky

Look, brother. Our advice is just that; advice. To echo Longwalk, you did not beg or plead. You handled yourself very well. And both of you identified reasons why your relationship sank. You also acknowledged that your relationship is probably over to her. I think this is important to both of you.

I myself quit drinking in January. For me It clouded judgement, made me complacent, and was a barrier to communication with God. The clarity provided by that one step is often enough the catalyst to improve so many other areas. I am glad you have lost the taste for it.

I think the "thank you" text was a nice touch of class.

You are continuing to make great progress. And if my advice seems off, feel free to tell me to butt out; I am not in your shoes.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks for the reply. Advice is always welcome.


----------



## 2xloser

Just "stopping by" to check in one you... catching up, bro you are doing amazingly well. Take a moment today to stop and look in the mirror and give yourself permission to be a little proud. You've come a long way in a very short time. 

Nobody does this thing perfectly, of course. Three tidbits tossed in at you, and you have applied all, on your own and in your way -- which I think is terrific:
- 3 short weeks ago, you told us you hit the bottle hard. We chimed in about being careful with that. You already knew it, and now you're on the cranberry juice thing. Good for you. Sooo many of us twke that angle way further before waking up to it.
- we discussed in your other thread the "modified NC" and the 180 being for you, not for her. You've thoughtfully arrived at a healthy approach to your interactions with her. Still in control, not giving in to her messing with your head (whether intentional or not), well removed, still demonstrative of your 'new you', but covering the necessities. Difficult to get there, sure, but I think arriving at a real good place, for both of you.
- I mentioned not letting the highs get too high, nor the lows too low. I think you're doing all that rollercoaster management so well I am envious. Your own positive affirmations and 'can-do' attitude every day is going to get you through this in ways that will pay off for the rest of your life, no matter where you end up.

Just sayin', take just a quick moment to reflect. You've come a long way already. Sure there's a long road ahead, but it sure feels great to know at least you're on the right road, even if you look around from time to time and it feels like such foreign territory. Your own inner self is now a great compass; don't be afraid to follow it to let it guide you through the future hurdles and roadblocks.

My add-on advice is to listen to the above about getting yourself out socially a bit, if you think it may become a problem. Isolation can become a real demon that grows and grows, expands the bad times into worse times. Just my 2 cents; you are really good about seeing an issue, framing it, and tackling it with actions to at least get started. I'd really suggest making it a point in the coming weeks if you can. Those dark long gloomy winter days are ahead and tend to have some effect on us all.

But, like everythung discussed with you here recently and like LW said -- it's all just advice. You take what hits home with you and use it; discard or ignore what doesn't work for you. It's your life, even more so now (feels kinda good in ways, doesn't it?  ). I think you're pretty good about ingesting and considering all input, but still doing what works for you. 

Stay strong and positive. You're already in a position to be an inspiration to other newbies who may find themselves facing a similar situation!


----------



## LongWalk

If you set up counseling, that is a concrete positive move. Your wife should respect that. When you go you can say that your goal is not reconciliation or divorce but a healthier relationship. Could be as co-parents.


----------



## DayOne

Right now, I'm in individual counselling. Part of my plan to take care of me. 

If at some point we decide to resolve 'us', then I'm open to couples counselling. But, for me at least, that's a ways off.


----------



## sammy3

DayOne said:


> A good alternative. But, a little terse, imo. Remember, she *hasn't* stepped on me (Affair), or screwed up in any of the other ways other stories here show, and we've parted amicably. >>>>
> 
> <<<<Also, remember i'm working on being a positive, friendly person (which is the '180' i'm really shooting for, a turnaround from who i have been) who does not try to score points, be negative, find fault for the sake of it, nitpick or start fights. This includes my Wife.
> 
> I have no anger towards her, or hold any bitterness. For me, the past is past. If anything i consider our separation to be the best thing that could have happened to me in 25 years, or longer. Even my coworkers, friends and family have remarked on how different i am already. How positive i am and that my voice has changed. It's no longer flat and monotonous. There's a spark to it. I laugh, naturally, and enjoy being around people. This is a new thing and i like it.
> 
> If i hold onto the past and the anger it held, it will destroy my future.



>>>> and even if she did step on you or screwed up, your words are words everyone of us could learn from... I hope you both do well. 

~sammy


----------



## DayOne

Thanks for the kind words all. 2xLoser and Sammy. It sometimes only just 'feels' like i've got a handle on this. Other times it's more like i'm a swan. Seemingly peaceful and serene on the surface, but paddling like a MF'er underneath!


----------



## DayOne

A great 24 hours. 

Went to my Aunts birthday yesterday where i received several comments about how good i was looking, that I've lost weight, and seem younger and happier.

And it looks like there's bit more responsibility being passed on to me at work. Asked to be temp (holiday cover) team lead to cover all our (4) sites. 

Going from being on 'PIP' (for attitude) to temp team lead in just over a month. Must be doing something right, looks like my 'shake off the past and move on' plan is working.


----------



## farsidejunky

It is your outlook. Everything you are posting shows your willingness to embrace your situation and make the most of it, despite the circumstances. 

Your boss sees it, too.


----------



## DayOne

2xloser said:


> Just "stopping by" to check in one you... catching up, bro you are doing amazingly well. Take a moment today to stop and look in the mirror and give yourself permission to be a little proud. You've come a long way in a very short time.


Thanks. I'm allowing myself to see it, now. But it's taken a while to get there. 



2xloser said:


> Nobody does this thing perfectly, of course. Three tidbits tossed in at you, and you have applied all, on your own and in your way -- which I think is terrific:
> - 3 short weeks ago, you told us you hit the bottle hard. We chimed in about being careful with that. You already knew it, and now you're on the cranberry juice thing. Good for you. So many of us take that angle way further before waking up to it.
> - we discussed in your other thread the "modified NC" and the 180 being for you, not for her. You've thoughtfully arrived at a healthy approach to your interactions with her. Still in control, not giving in to her messing with your head (whether intentional or not), well removed, still demonstrative of your 'new you', but covering the necessities. Difficult to get there, sure, but I think arriving at a real good place, for both of you.
> - I mentioned not letting the highs get too high, nor the lows too low. I think you're doing all that rollercoaster management so well I am envious. Your own positive affirmations and 'can-do' attitude every day is going to get you through this in ways that will pay off for the rest of your life, no matter where you end up.


- The bottle was hit on just that one occasion. I've been down that road before after a previous breakup, and was lucky enough to learn from it. One of the many switches in my head that got flipped on since the separation is the one that stopped my taste for alcohol. Really can't stand the stuff now. And i don't miss it at all.
- I've realised that a full NC serves no purpose. In fact i realised i was setting boundaries that were unnecessary. For instance, dictating to her which email address to contact me on, and only to use that one. :scratchhead: And not communicating things that should been said, eg: the direct debits. That was just me being a d!ck and acting out of anger. (but equally she should have told me about the plan she had in place to cover it). I've learnt from that, and modified my personal 180 accordingly. There won't be any discussion of 'us', and i've made it clear i'm not working towards a reconciliation, i'm fixing me. 
- There are still lows. My head does go to dark places, despite my best efforts. Typically along the "what's she doing now?..." route. But i'm working on that. Her life is no longer my life. MY life is my life. 




2xloser said:


> My add-on advice is to listen to the above about getting yourself out socially a bit, if you think it may become a problem. Isolation can become a real demon that grows and grows, expands the bad times into worse times. Just my 2 cents; you are really good about seeing an issue, framing it, and tackling it with actions to at least get started. I'd really suggest making it a point in the coming weeks if you can. Those dark long gloomy winter days are ahead and tend to have some effect on us all.


I've got the swimming lessons, i have dinner with different relatives at least once a week, i'll be joining the gym, and plan on spending a weekend away with my brother and his family soon. In fact, i think i get out more now than i did before! 



2xloser said:


> But, like everything discussed with you here recently and like LW said -- it's all just advice. You take what hits home with you and use it; discard or ignore what doesn't work for you. It's your life, even more so now (feels kinda good in ways, doesn't it?  ). I think you're pretty good about ingesting and considering all input, but still doing what works for you.
> 
> Stay strong and positive. You're already in a position to be an inspiration to other newbies who may find themselves facing a similar situation!


Thanks again. :smthumbup:


----------



## LongWalk

Good job


----------



## DayOne

One other thing about the meeting on Saturday. As part of our talk about the direct debit debacle, she mentioned that we had previously made a list of all the direct debits prior to the split, and asked if i could find them to help her get untangled. 

When i got home, i found them and texted her to let her know. She asked to come by later that day. I agreed to that, but said i would meet her outside the house. I'd also previously made a list and used the time before she showed up to take screenshots of the accounts, highlighting the parts she needed. 

I met her by the front gate. When she showed up, she gave a slight smile. Not a "HA! He's doing what i told him to do", more of a "i've lost the anger i had when i saw him earlier, and we're actually talking instead of fighting". There was a light in her eyes too. I kept any indication of what i'd noticed off my face. 

Together we went over the lists and screenshots, getting it straight so she could sort the direct debits out. That's when i told her i'd already taken care of her cell account and moved it to her bank. One less problem for her to deal with and for me to have hanging over me. 

I don't feel that i dealt with it as 'partners', but as a tangled business transaction that needed to be rectified, and i think that difference came across and was accepted.

Finally, on the pad underneath all the other papers were the notes i'd made on our earlier talk, as soon as i'd got home while it was still fresh. 'Minutes of the meeting' if you like. I had done this for me, as i do have a problem with blowing off what was said in previous 'discussions' we've had over the years. It also works towards rule #25; "Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you." Not something i can truthfully say i've done very well before.

I took her through my notes. Obviously not to say "i'm different now, lookit. Come back!" (and again, i made it clear that's not where i'm heading), but to show that i am working on me, and paying attention to what is said and learning from that. 

She was surprised to see the thought that had gone into that, and that i'd been actively listening. I have to do it as part of my job, but hadn't been doing it with her. I definitely heard the gears shift in her head, and that point i ended the 2nd meeting with a "Thanks for coming by. Hope you get the direct debits sorted. See you around", and went back indoors. 



...and didn't get to sleep until 3am!  She got to see the swan, not the emotional paddling that happened later! :rofl:


----------



## DayOne

Good session at counselling earlier. Made a big breakthrough in something i'd been in denial about for far too long, and the resultant hurt I've inflicted on those around me.


----------



## farsidejunky

Care to elaborate?


----------



## DayOne

*Re: Re: Day One...*



farsidejunky said:


> Care to elaborate?


Not on a public forum. But suffice to say it involves child abuse and the loss of innocence. Mine.


----------



## farsidejunky

Understood. Sometimes when you think you have the demons in the past beaten, they rear their ugly heads yet again. It it good to get that out to someone safe e.g. counseling.


----------



## DayOne

Email I've composed to Wife:
I was wrong. 

This is a really hard email to write. But I needed to put to words the thoughts I've realised as part of my recovery and 'process' I'm going through. Today's counselling reached a major breakthrough today. It was an incredibly emotional but releasing session, opening up sealed doors that I have allowed to prevent me from realising and releasing the pain I have kept hidden away. 

I have finally accepted that who I am and how I'm 'wired' has been affected and poisoned by events of my past. Not my past with just you, but from long before then. 

My abuse as a child, the beatings from **** that Mum didn't even know about and the things that she also did (that she claims she doesn't remember), my adoption and the feelings of abandonment (twice) by *birth mother * and later by *adopted dad*, plus many other things have already been brought to light and exposed in therapy. But also, finally, the beginnings of how that set me down a path, the wrong path, to a self destructive, harmful course. 

And eventually, to a self destructive, harmful relationship with those around me. I have wasted so much time projecting my pain on the people I should be able to love. I have hurt you because of the pain that I feel, instead of healing with you. 

I'm not claiming that my childhood is solely responsible for who I am now. But I accept that it has, in part, poisoned who I am. Equally, I accept that my inability to heal from it has also prevented me from growing into the man I could have been, should have been. 

Unfortunately you got what was left. Broken, and incomplete. I realise now that you had tried the best you were able to do to help me, but I wasn't ready to accept it. I feel into a relationship with you when I wasn't ready. And I never moved forward from that. A mistake on my part. 

I held onto my pain, and used it to (unconsciously, perhaps) hurt you and others as a way of easing the pain. 

It was wrong. My anger, my pain, my need to feel in control, has been focused incorrectly. And pushed those I love, away. Especially you. 

I have a long road to travel, but I'm determined to finally walk it. And accepting what I find along the way, and at it's destination. I will be continuing the counselling, and continuing to work on my self. It's a long way from being over, but I'm finally ready to get there. No matter how long it takes. 



I'm not telling you this as my Wife, or my partner. I accept that you aren't either of these any more. I'm telling you this as my friend. Someone I have hurt, critically, mortally. And I do not hope for, or seek, forgiveness. I accept that it is not something you may not be able to give. 

It is an acknowledgement that I was wrong.


----------



## farsidejunky

Most people take months to arrive at this point. You have done it in a matter of weeks. 

You are truly healing.

And the letter is great.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Most people take months to arrive at this point. You have done it in a matter of weeks.
> 
> You are truly healing.
> 
> And the letter is great.


I'm a long way from arriving anywhere, or healing, yet. But thank you for the words.

I've sent the letter.


----------



## farsidejunky

You may not feel it like it, but you are facing things and dealing with them. 

That IS healing.

Breaking a fever requires the body to put you in discomfort. This is no different.


----------



## LongWalk

Only after I came to TAM did I fully realize that my father emotionally abused me as a small child. It is way better to confront this reality early. Wait and your life passes by.


----------



## honcho

DayOne said:


> I'm a long way from arriving anywhere, or healing, yet. But thank you for the words.
> 
> I've sent the letter.


Seeing and understanding the problem or problems as well as a want and desire to work and address them is the best thing you can do. 

It’s a long road to heal and completely understand but whatever short term hurt you deal with now does get outweighed by the long term gains. I grew up with an abusive mom. 

You opened a door at counseling, you may find a couple of other doors that need to be opened as the layers get peeled back. Just keep kicking the doors down.


----------



## DayOne

The 'letter from her employer' that she'd been waiting for? Turned out (as i feared) to be a notice of potential redundancy (layoff). If it happens, it won't be until next April, but sucky timing for her.


----------



## DayOne

And an update from my team lead on my PIP ('Personal improvement Plan') at work (for shi77y attitude), feedback is that i've totally turned it around. All positive, across the board.


----------



## LongWalk

What kind of work does she do?


----------



## DayOne

LongWalk said:


> What kind of work does she do?


Without giving too much away. She's a PA (Personal Assistant, not the other kind of 'PA'!  ). Has been since i met her. The place she's at now is a government run agency. Which traditionally, like most government agencies runs a 'binge and purge' policy when it comes to employees. She got in (3 years ago) during the binge, and looks like she will be caught in the purge.

Yeah, PA's are often in demand, but last time it took her 6 months to get another job (this one). Which is the longest she's EVER been out of a job, and it crushed her. And she won't have my income to keep her going this time. 

In the past, i've typically jumped in and tried to 'fix it' (NG style). Suggesting job sites, emailing possible leads, trying to get her a job (any job) at my employers, etc, etc, etc.

push, Push, PUSH! You already can guess how that 'help' ended up being received... 

This time around, i've validated, been sympathetic, and NOT jumped in.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



DayOne said:


> Without giving too much away. She's a PA (Personal Assistant, not the other kind of 'PA'!  ). Has been since i met her. The place she's at now is a government run agency. Which traditionally, like most government agencies runs a 'binge and purge' policy when it comes to employees. She got in (3 years ago) during the binge, and looks like she will be caught in the purge.
> 
> Yeah, PA's are often in demand, but last time it took her 6 months to get another job (this one). Which is the longest she's EVER been out of a job, and it crushed her. And she won't have my income to keep her going this time.
> 
> In the past, i've typically jumped in and tried to 'fix it' (NG style). Suggesting job sites, emailing possible leads, trying to get her a job (any job) at my employers, etc, etc, etc.
> 
> push, Push, PUSH! You already can guess how that 'help' ended up being received...
> 
> This time around, i've validated, been sympathetic, and NOT jumped in.


You get it, brother.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> You get it, brother.


Eventually.


The other thing about her is that she has a bachelors degree and doctorate (juris). Oh, the crap i've given out over her choosing to be someone else's filing b*tch instead. 

Yup. d1ck. Again.

She's got her own issues about fear of failure, rejection. But having someone stomp all over them, trying to FORCE her to succeed, hasn't helped.


----------



## farsidejunky

Learn from that and accept it. Then make sure moving forward you don't do it again.

In the meantime, she now gets to own her underachievement. In a sense, you shield her from her failures. That is something it else you need to learn from and not repeat in the future.


----------



## LongWalk

With so much education she spends a lot of time thinking. So far it's worked out that you are the cause of her problems, so she is excising you. This is WAW, looking for independence.


----------



## DayOne

Oh, forgot to mention. I did get a reply to the email i sent the other night. 



> Thank you for sharing this with me.



And i'm glad i did send it. But locking it down now. Just business communications, when absolutely required.


----------



## DayOne

Hmmmm.... Just back from a run and checked my email:



> I am very sorry but I cannot get onto internet banking yet so I will withdraw what I owe you and drop it into the mailbox tomorrow night. I am very sorry. My calculations are as follows:
> 
> ************************************************
> 
> Sorry for the inconvenience.




I think someone is looking for reasons to come by..... 


Haven't replied yet (maybe after swim lesson), but it'll be along the lines of "no need to come by, just take care of it when your internet banking is setup".


----------



## farsidejunky

Yep. I know you didn't want the separation, yet you have embraced it. I get the impression that even if she decided she wanted to try again that you would not jump back in.

Am I wrong? What are you feeling about it?


----------



## LongWalk

It must be a weird feeling for her to swing by the place that was once her home


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Yep. I know you didn't want the separation, yet you have embraced it. I get the impression that even if she decided she wanted to try again that you would not jump back in.
> 
> Am I wrong? What are you feeling about it?


If she rolled up tomorrow, with her bags ready, i'd (as politely as possible) sent her on her way. 

Yeah, her announcing she was leaving was a kick in the nuts. BUT, it got me moving, motivated, to sort myself out once and for all. I don't know what the future will bring, I don't even know if it will be with her. I know what the future will be if I DON'T do what i need to do. Fking miserable. 

In the beginning i thought "OK, she's got a 12 month rental, that's a year to fix everything, then she'll be back". But i don't think that way anymore. I'm focussed on me. 

Not to say she's not in my head (ALL.THE.FREAKING.TIME), but gradually i'm rewiring.


----------



## farsidejunky

Your attitude of "no expectations" will serve you well in this time. 

Keep working on you.


----------



## DayOne

LongWalk said:


> It must be a weird feeling for her to swing by the place that was once her home


I'm sure it is. But she chose to walk away from it.


----------



## DayOne

Mailed her back with the reply above...


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Your attitude of "no expectations" will serve you well in this time.
> 
> Keep working on you.


At times it's more of a facade than an attitude... 

But i'll get there.


----------



## DayOne

No reply, and nothing in the mailbox. I guess she got the hint.


----------



## DayOne

Mind keeps wandering today, so throwing myself into house painting, vacuuming, carpet cleaning and yard work. It's helping... a bit.


----------



## DayOne

So does this: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYYTLJ8YHi4


----------



## LongWalk

One of their best songs.


----------



## DayOne

This is also appropriate. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAIwDbzzUEY


----------



## DayOne

Zero G.

Last couple of days, i feel like i'm in zero G, just sort of floating around, in no particular direction. It's like i've gotten to a point on the road where i feel like i've achieved, or at least are on top of, most of the major goals i've set out so far. (180, swimming, exercise, DIY, etc). 

Now, with nothing in particular to aim for, i'm at a bit of a loss.

Even in yesterdays counselling, i just felt i bounced all over the place and never really settled down into one particular subject. Spent quite a bit of time explaining 'covert contracts' to the counselor, and how i think they apply to me, giving examples, how they have caused me problems, and what i'm doing to overcome that.

But the rest of the hour, i just don't feel like i put much into it. Kept switching subjects, being completely random, and almost manic.

Even here on TAM, i've disconnected from the daily read of the other threads. None of the other stories are 'clicking' with me as they have done before. 

Still doing stuff around the house, but the 'momentum' has decreased. Even left last night dishes unwashed (1st time!). 

Not even thinking about her as much now. 

Just feeling disconnected, loss of focus, in Zero G.


----------



## farsidejunky

It will happen. One of the hardest things to deal with in this situation is being still.

When my XW left me, the hardest thing to do was be still. But when you stop, all of a sudden things don't taste as good, things just aren't as fun.

It can lead to depression, and if you are feeling this way longer than a week, I would see your doctor or therapist about it. 

Maybe you should consider doing a new hobby; something you have never done before but always wanted to.

Other than that, if nothing else, you can hang out here to vent and know that there are people who will ramble for you and give mediocre advice... 

Keep your chin up.


----------



## DayOne

I also think that, while i appear to be putting up a good 'front', there's nothing behind it. People tell me that "i've got a great attitude towards what's happening", that "i'm being really positive", and that "i'm doing a great job".

But i just feel empty inside. Numb.

I guess this is the period when reality really sinks in. That the last 24 years of your life are over, and there is no going back.

And this may, in part, be why i'm stalled. I know the direction i have to go, and what i have to do. But i'm not ready. I'm not ready to accept the fact that we're done.


----------



## LongWalk

You are doing a good job. The last kiss, do you remember it? Maybe she was thinking that she still loved you but didn't like you. Maybe she was thinking that it was the last time she'd have to put up with your touch. Who knows?

WAW seldom return. An affair is almost better. There is at least sex and an OM to blame.

You're going to make it. Takes time. Took a year for me. Get into great physical shape.


----------



## DayOne

I feel like crap as i realize and accept my part in ending our marriage, but i'm also realizing that i'm not stepping back and looking at the bigger picture. It takes two to make a marriage, and neither of us were making it work. Both of us were responsible for it falling apart, in our different ways.

I have to consider that, instead of beating myself up over what i did wrong.


----------



## DayOne

LongWalk said:


> The last kiss, do you remember it?


Always will. It was the one i gave her the night before she moved out. In my OP:



> The last thing i did before going to bed last night was to briefly go into the room she was in (i'd been out by the firepit) and give her one (last?) kiss, the first one in a long time and then leave the room. No words, just an uncomplicated expression of how i felt.


----------



## DayOne

It's a shame that most of the other TAM'ers that were posting at the beginning of the thread have since moved on to other threads. They offered some good advice and support, initially.

Perhaps not enough 'drama' in my story...


----------



## Regretf

DayOne said:


> I feel like crap as i realize and accept my part in ending our marriage, but i'm also realizing that i'm not stepping back and looking at the bigger picture. It takes two to make a marriage, and neither of us were making it work. Both of us were responsible for it falling apart, in our different ways.
> 
> I have to consider that, instead of beating myself up over what i did wrong.


I feel you Day One, as in my case i'm led to believe it's mainly my fault when my wife didn't fight for it either and didn't do anything about it either.

You can't change the past that i know, it must be really hard after 24 years. My wife and i have been married not even 5 years and if i feel like crap with the prospect of my marriage/life never returning i can't imagine what you must be feeling.

Like you said, patience and one day at a time.


----------



## DayOne

One thing that came up in therapy last night was when the counselor asked me "do you still love her?".

I couldn't give a straight answer. The answer is that i simply don't know. 

And today i still don't. 

Am i afraid to admit that i still am in love with her? Or afraid to admit that i'm not in love with her? It should be a simple enough question, right? But every time i try, it's like grappling a greased pig. I mentally shut down and am unable to properly address the question. 

Or am I afraid to (eventually) find out that she's picked a choice different from mine. If i pick yes, and she's picked no, it'll suck, obviously.

But if i've picked no, and she's picked yes, WTF happens then? OK, i 'know' what happens then, but it would be worse in a way. I can (sort of) deal with her saying no. It's almost expected at this point. But if she eventually says yes, I will have to be strong enough to let her know i've decided no.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



DayOne said:


> I feel like crap as i realize and accept my part in ending our marriage, but i'm also realizing that i'm not stepping back and looking at the bigger picture. It takes two to make a marriage, and neither of us were making it work. Both of us were responsible for it falling apart, in our different ways.
> 
> I have to consider that, instead of beating myself up over what i did wrong.


To a degree, yes. Own your crap. But improve said crap. That is the best way to deal with it.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



DayOne said:


> It's a shame that most of the other TAM'ers that were posting at the beginning of the thread have since moved on to other threads. They offered some good advice and support, initially.
> 
> Perhaps not enough 'drama' in my story...


Perhaps so. There are a lot of folks who seek that here. 

Your positive attitude is what kept me hanging around your thread initially.


----------



## Regretf

DayOne said:


> One thing that came up in therapy last night was when the counselor asked me "do you still love her?".
> 
> I couldn't give a straight answer. The answer is that i simply don't know.
> 
> And today i still don't.
> 
> Am i afraid to admit that i still am in love with her? Or afraid to admit that i'm not in love with her? It should be a simple enough question, right? But every time i try, it's like grappling a greased pig. I mentally shut down and am unable to properly address the question.
> 
> Or am I afraid to (eventually) find out that she's picked a choice different from mine. If i pick yes, and she's picked no, it'll suck, obviously.
> 
> But if i've picked no, and she's picked yes, WTF happens then? OK, i 'know' what happens then, but it would be worse in a way. I can (sort of) deal with her saying no. It's almost expected at this point. But if she eventually says yes, I will have to be strong enough to let her know i've decided no.


You are in a dilema. You've been separated what a month, more or less like myself.

I've thought about the things i did or didn't do in the marriage and maybe it was because i didn't love my wife enough and part of that is to protect yourself. if you ask me today i will say that i definetly love her and want my marriage to work.

For yourself after 24 years it must be a different experience. To me knowing if you love somebody shouldn't be so difficult but i know to a lot of people it is (my wife included).

If you love her still and she still has feelings for you maybe there could be a chance of working on something, difficult as it may seem. And you thought me this, it's only been a month Day One, you can't expect things to change that much in a month and specially after 24 years.

My therapist said to me you need to set a deadline, how much or how long can you stand this situation and then confront your wife "what do you want to do, how do you feel" and make a desition, either we work on it or we Split up. I know it's easier said tan done, but i know i can't be in this limbo forever, it must end someday.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



DayOne said:


> One thing that came up in therapy last night was when the counselor asked me "do you still love her?".
> 
> I couldn't give a straight answer. The answer is that i simply don't know.
> 
> And today i still don't.
> 
> Am i afraid to admit that i still am in love with her? Or afraid to admit that i'm not in love with her? It should be a simple enough question, right? But every time i try, it's like grappling a greased pig. I mentally shut down and am unable to properly address the question.
> 
> Or am I afraid to (eventually) find out that she's picked a choice different from mine. If i pick yes, and she's picked no, it'll suck, obviously.
> 
> But if i've picked no, and she's picked yes, WTF happens then? OK, i 'know' what happens then, but it would be worse in a way. I can (sort of) deal with her saying no. It's almost expected at this point. But if she eventually says yes, I will have to be strong enough to let her know i've decided no.


I think you are approaching this from the wrong perspective. 

How about you accept that a part of you will always love her? That she holds some fond memories? That she is the mother of your child? That you are done as a couple? That God (if you believe) presents us with negative things in our life in order to lead us to something better?


----------



## Regretf

DayOne said:


> It's a shame that most of the other TAM'ers that were posting at the beginning of the thread have since moved on to other threads. They offered some good advice and support, initially.
> 
> Perhaps not enough 'drama' in my story...


I feel the same way, and there are days where i wonder what i'm a doing in these fórums feeling sorry for myself, but Reading other people's threads may or may not give me an idea or where i stand, what can i expect, because i can't keep things bottled up.

I for one thank you for Reading my therad and giving me advice, really appreciate it.


----------



## Regretf

farsidejunky said:


> I think you are approaching this from the wrong perspective.
> 
> How about you accept that a part of you will always love her? That she holds some fond memories? That she is the mother of your child? That you are done as a couple? That God (if you believe) presents us with negative things in our life in order to lead us to something better?


I always think that God won't give you something you can't handle. And if my marriage won't survive is because God has something better for each of us, obviously i don't want to believe this because i my marriage at least the first 2- 2 1/2 years we were happy or i'd like to believe that. What can be better than my family right now? i don't know.

You have to think, were you really happy in the last years of your marriage?


----------



## DayOne

Thanks for the replies, both of you. Guess i'm just 'down' today. I know there will be those days, and to expect them. I just don't enjoy them.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DayOne said:


> One thing that came up in therapy last night was when the counselor asked me "do you still love her?".
> 
> I couldn't give a straight answer. The answer is that i simply don't know.
> 
> And today i still don't.
> 
> Am i afraid to admit that i still am in love with her? Or afraid to admit that i'm not in love with her? It should be a simple enough question, right? But every time i try, it's like grappling a greased pig. I mentally shut down and am unable to properly address the question.
> 
> Or am I afraid to (eventually) find out that she's picked a choice different from mine. If i pick yes, and she's picked no, it'll suck, obviously.
> 
> But if i've picked no, and she's picked yes, WTF happens then? OK, i 'know' what happens then, but it would be worse in a way. I can (sort of) deal with her saying no. It's almost expected at this point. But if she eventually says yes, I will have to be strong enough to let her know i've decided no.


Your post describing your feeling of being "off" in your forward motion is your bodies natural depression mechanism that is designed to get you to slow down so you can resolve unresolved issues. It is natural and it is ok to allow it to temporarily do its job. Which is... think it through.. resolve it. When its resolved... you will find the "fog" of depression lift naturally on its own. I deal with it all the time. Just choose to be kind to yourself during those times, leave your calendar less full and forgive yourself for having them as they are a normal process. The only time its a concern is when it doesn't lift naturally over too long a period of time.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks, Blossom. Very wise words from someone else i follow and respect.

BTW, sorry to read your recent update.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Thanks D.O.


----------



## Lostinthought61

As men, for I can only speak as a man so there no sexist remarked infer here and clearly women/mothers/wives fall in the same silo, we have been trained (fathers, society, conditioning) ourselves to get up everyday to provide for our family, to look after the needs of others, we come home and perform the task required to bring order ot to fix things. then when there is a major disruption in our lives, we are suddenly disoriented and our bearings misaligned. it takes time to realign ourselves but here is the think you need to remember, as apative as we are, human nature does not like dramtics changes, and it can be confusing for a bit Day one. But as suggested earlier, you need to reforce some of your direction in positive ways...i will tell oyu the down side of that, if and when your wife comes back home you will again feel a disruption in the force. ;-)


----------



## Blossom Leigh

great point xenote... now he can strategically plan space for himself during that transition time. I had to do that in August when a lot of changes were hitting all at one time. I ruthlessly cleared my calender to give me space to process and I'm glad I did because WHAT I was processing was so intense my body reacted in intense pain. Had I not cleared my calendar I would not have had recovery space so desperately needed at the time.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks again for the feedback. Finally called a friend who was kind enough to '2x4' me into a better thought process. 

RegretF, got your PM, and thanks for the offer.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



Regretf said:


> I always think that God won't give you something you can't handle. And if my marriage won't survive is because God has something better for each of us, obviously i don't want to believe this because i my marriage at least the first 2- 2 1/2 years we were happy or i'd like to believe that. What can be better than my family right now? i don't know.
> 
> You have to think, were you really happy in the last years of your marriage?


God deliberately gives us things we can't handle. If not, we have no reason to lean on Him, and without being challenged beyond our capacity we will never grow.


----------



## Regretf

farsidejunky said:


> God deliberately gives us things we can't handle. If not, we have no reason to lean on Him, and without being challenged beyond our capacity we will never grow.


I agree with what you said. What i meant is God doesn't give you anything you can't handle with HIS help. Or he's giving us these tests or trials so we come out stronger from them.


----------



## DayOne

Written but not sent tonight. 
It's midnight and I'm unable to get to sleep again. The pain I am feeling over losing you is tearing me up inside. I can't stop running through all the 'what ifs' and 'should have dones' that led to this point. But all too little, too late. 

I've managed to stay strong, keep a positive outlook, work on myself, and try so hard to move forward. But I'm running out of the energy to keep going. My motivation has gone. All I'm able to do is think about you. Hoping that you're OK, that you're coping, that you're finding the happiness you said you were leaving to find. 

I so desperately want you to be happy. You deserve to finally have that. I know that your decision to leave wasn't an overnight one. That you must have been wanting to do so for years. Neither of us were happy anymore, but we both got trapped in a downward spiral of misery. I'm glad you had the courage to break free. It was the right choice, for both of us. We need time to heal, to work on ourselves, and to move on with our lives. 

Please understand that this is not a "please come back" letter. If you showed up tomorrow with your bags, I'd say no. 

Not because I don't want us to be together again (and in my heart I don't know that will happen), but because I know it would be a bad idea. After so many years of hurting each other and causing so much pain, a month apart would not be enough time to heal the wounds and hearts we have both had broken. 12 months may not even be enough. And I don't hold onto any false hope that you and I will even be together again. I'm not even sure, at this time, if we should. Unless we both manage to change, find ourselves individually, and learn to love ourselves again, I fear that we will remain too toxic to successfully try again, or to love each other. 

Although I'm starting to work on me, and have already seen changes, it'll be a long time before I'm beyond who I was, and become someone I can finally be proud of. And I need to accomplish that first, to be happy with me and who I am, before I will allow myself to be in a relationship. Either with you, or if it comes to it, anyone else. 

I appreciate that these are 'just words', probably the same things you've heard too many times, for too many years. And I can understand that. It can easily be seen as that. I've said similar things too often, but without changing. But I think that's because I've only tried to change for us. Then gotten frustrated that WE'RE not changing and just gone back to a default behaviour. 

But I've realised it's not about changing for the sake of us, it's about changing for the sake of me. I have to strip everything away from me. To pull it down, find out who is behind ME, resolve my own issues instead of trying to resolve ours, and begin to see me. No matter what I find (and I've already found a pile of things that I've been hiding and been afraid of for too long) and address and overcome them. 


Also, please understand that this is not a "hey, lookit me! I've changed. It's all good now" letter. I've barely scratched the surface. There's still a lot of anger (held over from where we were when we were together), frustration (from knowing there's no easy way for me to fix myself and knowing that I should have done it differently), loneliness (because I'm still not liking the person I have to live with, and there's no one else around me), and fear (that won't be an us anymore, and you'll find someone else, or have already) 

All these I will have to deal with over the coming months, but I've made a promise to myself to face these emotions, these fears, these demons and overcome them. 

I can't be who I am anymore. I don't like that person, and I can see why you stopped being able to love that person. I have the rest of my life ahead of me, I have to be able to spend it with someone I like and love. Myself.


----------



## LongWalk

Good. Don't send it.

It is very objective. It is what she must come up with herself. She must reach out to you if she is having simliar thoughts.

If you send it, it's just another blow. If you had had this conversation years ago, it might have brought joy and regeneration, now is late.

There is hope but only by betting on yourself will that hope have a chance.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



LongWalk said:


> Good. Don't send it.
> 
> It is very objective. It is what she must come up with herself. She must reach out to you if she is having simliar thoughts.
> 
> If you send it, it's just another blow. If you had had this conversation years ago, it might have brought joy and regeneration, now is late.
> 
> There is hope but only by betting on yourself will that hope have a chance.


I agree with Longwalk. Write it out; it is therapeutic for you. But I wouldn't send.


----------



## honcho

farsidejunky said:


> I agree with Longwalk. Write it out; it is therapeutic for you. But I wouldn't send.


When my mess started I wrote a great deal of letters which turns out I was writing to myself. At the time I didn't realize that. I intended of giving them to her but after I wrote anything I always told myself I would re-read it the next day, make sure it was perfect to convey what I wanted. 

Next day I would start to read it, then I would start to tweak it or change things or I would just tell myself that although last night this is how I felt, today I don't feel this way.

I never sent any of them and while at the time I debated within myself about sending them it was best I didn't. Your are still very early in this game of separation. You are making great strides within yourself. I do think that if you tuck the letter away and re-read it in a couple of weeks or a month you will understand why not sending it is the best course right now.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks for the replies. No, didn't send it. It's saved in drafts. I have a feeling there'll be a load more 'drafts' over the next few weeks, months. Kinda wish i hadn't sent the previous one (a few posts back) as i now realise these are for me, to allow me to get whats in my head, out.

Last night i went to bed around 10:30, at midnight i was still lying in the dark, my head unable to rest. So i started writing that letter. Finished at 1am. By 1:10am i was fast asleep! Got a great nights sleep, woke up back on track and moving forward again!


BTW, got to work and my line manager tells me there's a possibly that my employer may help pay for my counselling. There's an inhouse counselling system that has FAILED to get back to me for over a month, despite HR's efforts to get them moving. Now my line manager and HR lady are on the case and will be hounding them to sort it out. They both feel that it's wrong i'm paying for counselling when my employer offers it.


----------



## LongWalk

If you were going to R with your wife – unlikely but not impossible – you should just find some real reason so meet up. Something will come up sooner of later. Loose ends to tidy up. Maybe she will call you. Have a spontaneous coffee or ice cream. Let her talk. Don't be over eager. You can save this prospect up. But hopefully the need will pass.



> As far as the separation goes, we have spent time to work out the ground rules. Separate accounts (except where we have joint debts to contribute toward), *no affairs*, respect of each others space (She'll call if she wants to come by, I asked not to know where she is), kids aren't an issue as they are both over 20 at this point and one moved out years ago.


How are you going to know if she has affairs?

Did you talk about divorce? Who would file?

You might set a deadline. After X weeks you file for divorce and have her served, unless you have arranged a date to discuss your marriage. Why be plan B?

If you wait for her to ask for divorce, isn't it going to hurt more? If you ask, she isn't going to oppose. That will also hurt, but a little less. If she surprizes you and request R, okay, but separations of this kind, with no dating or intimacy, how do they lead to nearness or eros?


----------



## DayOne

I've been considering how best to make something like that work. While i'm not looking for reconciliation at this point, i think it would be a good idea to keep some sort of VLC (very low contact). No emotional hose, no 'us' connection per se, but just an occasional "i'm still here" from both of us.

We didn't split due to infidelity, drugs/alcohol, or violence. (though the jury is out on 'abuse'. On both sides, i feel)

We just, stopped. Listening, caring, respecting, appreciating. 

While i'm still convinced we need this space, and limited contact, to review, reflect, regroup, and heal, I'm concerned that a deafening silence could be equally damaging. 

We've had forms of silence in the past after fallouts. Where we don't talk, don't communicate, and don't work on what the fight was about. We just absorbed the damage and a few days later would stagger on. Unresolved, and with unhealed wounds. All that did was increase the toxicity in our relationship.

This current no/low contact could be perceived as just an extended version of previous fallout's. Especially as i'm (by my own admission) a world class sulker , and we're both great at storing previous 'wrongs' to throw back at each other when ammunition is needed.

Now, i know i'm working on me. And apart from a few relapses, i'm gradually moving forward, improving. But i just don't know anything about her situation. For all i know she could be festering in a "he doesn't even want to communicate at all now. He doesn't even want to try. Same old DayOne" perception. I don't even know if she's in counselling, or some other form of help. (I do check for new users on the various forums, but haven't seen her yet). And that's frustrating, and worrying. 

If, in six months or so, i feel I've improved to the point where i want to reach out, only to find she's done nothing to work out her issues (and by that i mean using professional help rather than sitting on the couch, 'thinking' or listening to 'friends' advice), there won't be any reconciliation. 

Which would royally suck. I'm determined to come out of this a better man (which, TBH, wouldn't be that hard compared to what i've been up till now). And i will accept that there may not be an 'us' going forward. But I hate the idea that she may not have been able to move forward herself. I still deeply care for her (dammit, i'll admit it, i'm still in love with her. misty eyed now, at work!  ), and i want her to be happy, to heal, to be able to find herself and to be able to move forward, even if it's not with me.


----------



## DayOne

I did have to let her know that a letter from DVLA (DMV) had come regarding youngest son's (non running) car. Tax (tags) is due, and if it gets noticed parked on the street without valid tags, it'll get clamped, towed and crushed. She would not know this, and it's doubtful the kid would either. So in order to make sure they didn't come home one day and find no car, i had to reach out.

The letter was as follows:



> I received a tax reminder for the Wrangler, which I'm dealing with. But there was also a similar looking envelope for ******'s car, which means he needs to take care of it. Untaxed, uninsured cars can be clamped, towed when found. The problem he will find is that to tax it, he has to MOT it, and i have doubts it's currently in a condition to pass an MOT. (MOT is a vehicle inspection in the UK, DayOne)
> 
> His other option's (as i see it) are:
> a) SORN (Statutory Off Road Notification), this means tell the DVLA it's not going to be used on the road, which means no tax has to be paid. The issue with that is, as the name implies, it's OFF the road, which includes being parked by the side of the road. I almost lost the Wrangler that way a few years back. If he wants to keep it, he'll have to find somewhere to store it, off the road.
> 
> b) Sell it, probably for scrap in the condition it's in. He'll get back what he paid for it, assuming it's what i heard he bought it for (around £100).
> 
> Hope all going well for you.


That was a couple days ago. I've heard nothing back. Which strangely enough, even though I'M practicing LC (as much as possible) set off a trigger leading to last night's minor meltdown.


----------



## DayOne

LongWalk said:


> How are you going to know if she has affairs?
> 
> *I'm not. Am i looking to see if she's in one now? No. But it is something that eats away at me. And it's always possible that she is. Youngest son lives with her, i would hope that if anything was being noticed, either him or oldest son or my Mum who both visit her house and talk to her, would notice and tell me. On my dark days, i imagine that they all know and all are deceiving me. (yes, i have some long, dark nights)*
> 
> Did you talk about divorce? Who would file?
> 
> *We haven't, yet. I don't think either of us want to bring it up. I don't think either of us are ready to cross that bridge. At least, i'm not. *
> 
> You might set a deadline. After X weeks you file for divorce and have her served, unless you have arranged a date to discuss your marriage. Why be plan B?
> 
> *For myself, i'm 'plan b' currently as i consider us to be on time out. As i told the therapist on Monday, the longest recorded continuous boxing bout was six hours long. We've been at it for a LOT longer than that. We've rang the bell, and have retired to our corners. The issues of when to resume (ie; time when to decide on reconciliation or divorce) does need to be addressed however. I was thinking that her 12 month rental would be a time limit, but now realise that we need to make a decision a long time before that. *
> 
> If you wait for her to ask for divorce, isn't it going to hurt more? If you ask, she isn't going to oppose. That will also hurt, but a little less. If she surprises you and request R, okay, but separations of this kind, with no dating or intimacy, how do they lead to nearness or eros?
> 
> *See my reply above regarding my concerns over extended silence. It's an issue for me and something i've been thinking about. But do i reach out (breaking the NC/LC I imposed), or wait for her to reach out when she's ready (as other threads suggest)? I don't want to risk losing her, but equally don't want to risk interacting too early, while we're still hurting and risking all the initial work that has been done.*


----------



## DayOne

BTW, not sure what you meant. Cold, dispassionate, detached? 



LongWalk said:


> It is very objective.


----------



## Regretf

DayOne.

You are at a crossroads, hard to decide to either move forward with your life, which you still have regartless of the outcome or hold a candle with hope that you can still mae it in the end.

Hope can be a bi%&$. Once you kille it, you are erady to move forward, but i know you are not ready to kill it yet, as neither am i. because in the last couple of days i have seen, felt things from my wife that she hasn't closed to the door to a reconciliation, and that there's a part of her, might be the same with your wife, where she's holding on to see if feelings change for the better or if she sees things in you or in your interaction that might give her a clue wether to give it another shot or not.

I'd say, same as myself, to keep working on you, improving yourself and you might be surprised with the result, either you come out a better/stronger man ouf of this without your wife in the picture or you still both come out better people with a chance of a R. Same as myself it will take a lot of time, work and like you said to myself, patience.


----------



## LongWalk

A year is a long time. In three weeks time you will surely begin to detach, though hope may live on.

In three months you may still hope only to find that meeting her does not change the limbo.

You can wait and work on yourself but where is there equality in this?

She holds all the power as the one who wants the relationship less. For all you know she is merely trying to ease you out. The goal of separation may be to dump you. She may also be talking with other men to see how it feels. Is it fair to say that if a wonderful guy started chasing her, she would take this the ripened fruit of the escape tree?

It is also possible that she loves you but believes you are bad for her and she is trying find the strength to stand up to you in a relationship of equals.

The latter would mean that you have hope, but she is not saying what the separation means.


----------



## DayOne

So what's your suggestion?


----------



## DayOne

Did get a few positives this evening. She goes to yoga every Thursday, and then visits my Mum afterwards 

Feedback from Mum is that Wife is also having a hard time without me, as much as I am without her. And that she's missing me. The feeling (from Mum) is that she doesn't 'want the relationship less', rather that she honestly just needs space to clear her head. 

Also that she is actively working on herself and keeping busy. By which I mean working on her house, yardwork, etc. 

She's not out, running around town. 

Also, I've been having a hard time as oldest boy seems to have been avoiding me. Blown me off twice in the last week. I was concerned that he was picking sides. But it appears he is just as absent with Wife. 

And finally, at swimming classes tonight, I managed three widths of the pool! (and a few 1/2 widths), without any outside assistance or floaties. 

Not a big deal to most, but a 'kin HUGE deal for me. After 40 years of being afraid of the water, I'm actually swimming! A confidence booster like you wouldn't believe. 

PS, Wife has just replied to my car email, while I was typing this. BRB...


----------



## LongWalk

DayOne said:


> BTW, not sure what you meant. Cold, dispassionate, detached?


By "objective" I did not mean cold, dispassionate or detached. I thought you offered a explanation in which both spouse bore responsibility for the demise of their marriage. Not knowing you personally, I cannot judge facts, but the tone is self critical without being overly so.

Your wife may only wish for space to clear her head, but if you are not dating or meeting, you do not have any opportunity to renew a healthy relationship.

A couple of weeks is not a long time, but a month? Three? Four? At some point the lack of contact implies indifference to the other's well being. If you can go weeks without carrying how the other is, well, there is no active loving relationship.


----------



## DayOne

I hear what you're saying. Which is, in part, what I've just done. 

She had emailed to say thank you for letting her know about the car. Her tone was warmer than it has been in any previous emails, and signed off that she 'was hoping I'm doing ok'. Not something she's offered before. 

Now, I'm not getting all giddy about that, just something I noticed. 

She also wanted to come by and pick up the mail this weekend. Some seems to still be leaking through, even though she's done the re-direction. 

I replied that I will be in town on Saturday, and I will meet her there for coffee, and give her the mail. Not an offer of a 'date', just letting her know i'll be at X location at Y time, and she's welcome to meet me there. 

Not assuming she'll accept, but 'testing the waters'. If she does, fine. If she doesn't, equally fine. Just offering an opportunity is all.

Edit: After i'd done that i remembered your previous post.



LongWalk said:


> If you were going to R with your wife – unlikely but not impossible – you should just find some real reason so meet up. Something will come up sooner of later. Loose ends to tidy up. Maybe she will call you. Have a spontaneous coffee or ice cream.


----------



## DayOne

LongWalk said:


> but the tone is self critical without being overly so.


Not enough "i fked up" you think? Or too much? Fortunately it doesn't matter either way. It was simply a way of letting out some what i've been feeling. 

As Honcho said "I wrote a great deal of letters which turns out I was writing to myself". And that is true for me. These aren't really going to be 'for her', these will be for me. 

Whatever it was i expelled from me into words, it worked. It totally drained out the toxins i'd had for days, and i was asleep 10 mins after expelling it. 

It won't be 'perfect'. It will come across with a strong taint of whatever emotions i'm going through at the time of writing. Perhaps what you're seeing is that i'm not totally ready to accept just my side of the problem. It's been a month, there's going to be remnants of the crap i've been carrying round for too many years. But, hopefully, as the months progress, the 'letters' will become purer as i do.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



DayOne said:


> I hear what you're saying. Which is, in part, what I've just done.
> 
> She had emailed to say thank you for letting her know about the car. Her tone was warmer than it has been in any previous emails, and signed off that she 'was hoping I'm doing ok'. Not something she's offered before.
> 
> Now, I'm not getting all giddy about that, just something I noticed.
> 
> She also wanted to come by and pick up the mail this weekend. Some seems to still be leaking through, even though she's done the re-direction.
> 
> I replied that I will be in town on Saturday, and I will meet her there for coffee, and give her the mail. Not an offer of a 'date', just letting her know i'll be at X location at Y time, and she's welcome to meet me there.
> 
> Not assuming she'll accept, but 'testing the waters'. If she does, fine. If she doesn't, equally fine. Just offering an opportunity is all.
> 
> Edit: After i'd done that i remembered your previous post.


I think that is a great way to begin to reach out to her.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks. Think I'll go with the 'I'll buy mine, you buy yours' approach. That way there's no underlying 'date' issues, and no possibility of any 'covert contracts'. (something else I have to work on)


----------



## LongWalk

Coffee is not that expensive. The key now is to be an active listener. If you feel that you have not met her needs in the past, you need to let her know that you are no longer oblivious. This does not mean being wordy and promising change, blah, blah.

Also, if she makes some unreasonable request, ie, cooks up a shyte test, don't fall for it. You don't want to be weak.

You are doing okay.

Her question asking whether you were okay or not may just be a pleasantry to make her feel kind towards you. Don't read into at this point.


----------



## DayOne

HEY! I'm new at this, gimme a break! 

Two nights ago i was losing the will to live, now i'm (potentially) meeting my Wife for coffee. Having to change gear, mentally.

Don't want to push, but equally don't want to be weak.


----------



## DayOne

LongWalk said:


> Coffee is not that expensive. The key now is to be an active listener. If you feel that you have not met her needs in the past, you need to let her know that you are no longer oblivious. This does not mean being wordy and promising change, blah, blah.
> 
> *There won't be any of that. Strictly focussing on the now, not any future. But equally, although i'll listen to her feelings, i won't allow any sh!t throwing and raking over every past mistake (it would be a looong cup of coffee). I'll be there for her to unburden, but not to just offload. *
> 
> Also, if she makes some unreasonable request, ie, cooks up a shyte test, don't fall for it. You don't want to be weak.
> 
> *As above.*
> 
> You are doing okay.
> 
> Her question asking whether you were okay or not may just be a pleasantry to make her feel kind towards you. Don't read into at this point.
> 
> *I did say in a previous post that i'm not going giddy over what she said, just simply observing that she said it.*


----------



## DayOne

Just spitballing here. I think i mentioned a while back that she had joined a gym, and had asked me to go with. Unfortunately i had my head up my a$$, and refused. 

Since my recent successful attempts to pull my head out of my a$$, i've realised that I was punishing her for her refusal to go on my chosen activity which was walking/hiking. I do a lot of it, and wanted her to come with. But she didn't. Instead of respecting her reasons why (arthritic knees, causing fear of slipping on mud, wet grass or walking in the dark, and not being able to go as far or as fast as me), i just focused on being rejected.

I'm joining a gym (legs of a god due to the walking, running, but upper body of jello). 

Here's the idea. What if, I sat her down at some point, explained the above, and invited her to be a training partner?


----------



## 2xloser

Hey man -

Been out of the country for a while, came back in to "check up" on you, and sure enough, you're struggling after the great start you had to this tough time. Very normal; that's why we all say it is hard work. This is some of that work.

Seems to me you've stopped putting your own head-clearing FIRST, and put "finding your way back to her" as your primary objective, driven essentially by loneliness, even if you don't really admit it.

Remember the advice to get out more? You need it, imho. Because when you have nothing and no one else to think about, of course your mind snaps back immediately to her. Initially, you were busy doing things to set yourself up. Now you're set up, and it's nit clear what to do with it. It's a time of real adjustment.

You've been out a month, and done phenomenally well. But you want to know how the story ends, like reading the last chapter of the book first, without getting the whole story line.

Slow down. She knows where you are and how to find you if she wants to. If that is to happen, you've got to let it. Go back to the chapter you were at when you started trying to peek at the book ending, and let the whole story unfold. Because as much as you say you aren't saying "lookit me and how good I've done", I'd suggest maybe you kind of actually are trying to let that be known. it's natural; you've done a lot of work in a short period of time, and everyone notices but the one person you want to notice.

Just give it time. She may or may not progress at the same pace as you, and you've got to resoect that pace, whatever it is, as much as the conclusion when she gets there - whatever it is.

You can do this. From my 2cents view, you're still way ahead of a "normal" schedule and should allow yourself to settle in to this un-exciting "new normal" before reaching out. Get routines or habits -- including journal writing if it is helpful to you to get thoughts out and on paper -- to fill that time for yourself. You've done great thus far; of course there will be these bumps. Experience them and deal with them without needing to reach out. 

And yes, I know it is so very incredibly hard. You're still doing really well. Stay strong.


----------



## honcho

First in an earlier post, you mentioned your son and possible avoiding you. He is avoiding both of you. When I was about your oldest age my parents marriage completely fractured. I avoided both of my parents at that point. I was concerned about giving the image of picking sides. I was questioning a great deal of things about family life, did they stay together just for us kids, was it all just an illusion. What he is doing isn’t unusual. 

Your doing great with the swim classes. I grew up on swim teams, water skiing pretty much anything to do with water I did. My stbx was terrified of the water. It took me years just to get her to wade waist deep in a pool. For you to be doing some laps already will be a big boost for yourself and is great. 

As Longwalk said, don’t read too much into it right now. Many of us do this whether consciously or unconsciously. I know I did plenty of it myself. Guys tend to be more planners and schemers. Right now you have a possibility of meeting her to drop off her mail and have coffee. She may accept, she may decline. She may accept and not show up. Mine did this several times to me. 

If she does accept and show up do as someone suggested, relax. She may want to talk, she may not want to talk. You both will have to establish some kind of comfort level with each other no matter how this separations turns out. It generally starts out with baby steps instead of leaps.


----------



## LongWalk

Don't go for the training partner proposal. It's too needy. Best that you build your upper body and let her see that. Don't talk about your working out.


----------



## DayOne

Got a reply.



> Are you inviting me for coffee? I have plans for the afternoon but can meet up in the morning. What time do you want to meet? And where. Is there something specific you want to discuss?


----------



## DayOne

LongWalk said:


> Don't go for the training partner proposal. It's too needy. Best that you build your upper body and let her see that. Don't talk about your working out.


I hear you. It's a thought is all. (Written at 2:30am, which may explain it)

However. At the time I was thinking about the MAP ("if you raise your level, and she see's it, she may want to raise her's). Also, your (and others) earlier posts regarding leaving too much space without any dating or meetings. 

To me, putting those together could lead to going to the gym together. Not now, but in a month or so. Which would be a good way of regularly spending time with each other, but without the pressure of it being a 'date'. But it does create opportunities for steering her into an afterwork out drink/coffee ("Instigate, Isolate, Escalate")

Does that make my idea seem any less like i'm in a self created fog?


----------



## DayOne

2xloser said:


> Hey man -
> 
> Been out of the country for a while, came back in to "check up" on you, and sure enough, you're struggling after the great start you had to this tough time. Very normal; that's why we all say it is hard work. This is some of that work.
> 
> Seems to me you've stopped putting your own head-clearing FIRST, and put "finding your way back to her" as your primary objective, driven essentially by loneliness, even if you don't really admit it.
> 
> Remember the advice to get out more? You need it, imho. Because when you have nothing and no one else to think about, of course your mind snaps back immediately to her. Initially, you were busy doing things to set yourself up. Now you're set up, and it's not clear what to do with it. It's a time of real adjustment.
> 
> You've been out a month, and done phenomenally well. But you want to know how the story ends, like reading the last chapter of the book first, without getting the whole story line.
> 
> Slow down. She knows where you are and how to find you if she wants to. If that is to happen, you've got to let it. Go back to the chapter you were at when you started trying to peek at the book ending, and let the whole story unfold. Because as much as you say you aren't saying "lookit me and how good I've done", I'd suggest maybe you kind of actually are trying to let that be known. it's natural; you've done a lot of work in a short period of time, and everyone notices but the one person you want to notice.
> 
> Just give it time. She may or may not progress at the same pace as you, and you've got to resoect that pace, whatever it is, as much as the conclusion when she gets there - whatever it is.
> 
> You can do this. From my 2cents view, you're still way ahead of a "normal" schedule and should allow yourself to settle in to this un-exciting "new normal" before reaching out. Get routines or habits -- including journal writing if it is helpful to you to get thoughts out and on paper -- to fill that time for yourself. You've done great thus far; of course there will be these bumps. Experience them and deal with them without needing to reach out.
> 
> And yes, I know it is so very incredibly hard. You're still doing really well. Stay strong.



Hey yourself! 

Thanks for the reality check. I can see what your saying. I had reached a plateau, and had sunk into a sense of 'what now?' and loss of direction. I'd shaken that off a couple of nights ago, but I did let her car email reply kinda fall into the space it had left open. 

It looks like the coffee meeting is going to happen. So any advice on how best to handle "something specific you want to discuss?". Oldest son should definitely be on the agenda. If he is avoiding both of us, we should talk about how best to deal with that. Perhaps a sit down with the three of us to allow him to express what he may be going through. 

I sometimes forget that although he's 23, having his parents split up is still going to affect him. And i think it's important that she and I work together to help him. No matter what happens to us, he needs to know that he's still loved and wanted.

I'm also going to let her know that we will be discussing a timescale. In 2 months time we will sit down and have an honest discussion on the future.


----------



## DayOne

Email reply (in drafts)



> Yes, I am inviting you for coffee. Make it XXXXXXXXX at 10am. Can't be later than that as i am taking the dog to the vets at around 12 (waiting on time confirmation).
> 
> I'd like to talk about *oldest son*. He's been blowing me off (i've set up to meet him at least a couple of times, but he's not shown). I thought it was just me, but when i mentioned it to Mum, she said that you haven't seen him either. I'm worried about him, that he's avoiding us. I sometimes forget that although he's 23, having his parents separate is still going to affect him. And i think it's important that you and I work together to help him. No matter what happens to us, he needs to know that he's still loved and wanted.
> 
> I'd also like to discuss a timescale. We will need to make decision's on where this is going to go, and whether we should attend marriage counselling or separation/divorce counselling. These decisions should not be made now, as a month is too soon. But these decisions will need to be made. So i'm proposing that in 2 months time, we sit down and have an honest talk about our future.
> 
> Is there something you want to discuss tomorrow?


----------



## farsidejunky

I would not elaborate; it leaves little to say on Saturday.

After the 1st paragraph, which is good, maybe:

"I would like to discuss our oldest son and my concern for him avoiding both of us. 

I would also like to discuss time lines regarding us living apart.

Is there anything you would like to discuss?"

The rest of the time scale portion needs to be face to face where you can both look each other in the eye, non verbal communication, etc.


----------



## farsidejunky

"I would also like to discuss details of our current arrangement" is better for the last sentence.


----------



## LongWalk

I agree. Too long.

Just, "yea, coffee".

You don't want to present her with the new you. She knows you well and will decide herself. 

Just be yourself. Don't promise stuff.

Your son is of the age that neither of you can fix him.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

ok... two things stick out... 

the "do you want to discuss anything specific" says lack of trust in your intentions, so I would have left the rest off... just go to enjoy the space without an agenda. She doesn't want to be pulled on. Its exhausting.

also, I think it would be great for you to share your "realization" about the vengeful act when you refused to go to the gym because of the walking. It sounds like you want to build a genuine caring friendship with her and just acknowledging that event, how you see it differently now and that you just want to apologize for that to her will go a long way to rebuilding trust. Just leave off making future plans for now. Acknowledgement and apology is enough for now. Have patience. The simplest of things when allowed to breath swell into music my friend. 

You will fill good about making amends in that spot without building a new expectation on the back of it. Let it stand on its own, so that she can own it untainted. She will really appreciate it EVEN IF it is not immediate. She'll get it.


----------



## Regretf

Good to see you hopefull DayOne. I'll get there myself one day.

It's a thin line between no contact and having diginity and "doing something" no not let the spark die, making her fall in love with you again.

Takes big skill to dangle between the two, i have to and maybe you do.

Good luck with your meeting.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks for the feedback all of you. It's always appreciated. I've sent a reply. 

And obviously will update tomorrow.


----------



## just got it 55

DayOne said:


> Did get a few positives this evening. She goes to yoga every Thursday, and then visits my Mum afterwards
> 
> Feedback from Mum is that Wife is also having a hard time without me, as much as I am without her. And that she's missing me. The feeling (from Mum) is that she doesn't 'want the relationship less', rather that she honestly just needs space to clear her head.
> 
> Also that she is actively working on herself and keeping busy. By which I mean working on her house, yardwork, etc.
> 
> She's not out, running around town.
> 
> Also, I've been having a hard time as oldest boy seems to have been avoiding me. Blown me off twice in the last week. I was concerned that he was picking sides. But it appears he is just as absent with Wife.
> 
> And finally, at swimming classes tonight, I managed three widths of the pool! (and a few 1/2 widths), without any outside assistance or floaties.
> 
> Not a big deal to most, but a 'kin HUGE deal for me. After 40 years of being afraid of the water, I'm actually swimming! A confidence booster like you wouldn't believe.
> 
> PS, Wife has just replied to my car email, while I was typing this. BRB...


DO....... having the courage to overcome a lifetime fear is much larger that you think.Survival was threatened ,the primal human condition as it were.On a very basic but obvious scale this can not be understated.Be very proud of yourself. 

With that you can overcome the outcome of this separation one way or the other.


55


----------



## Blossom Leigh

It sounds like y'all became really enmeshed and introverted as a couple. Expanding your world helps and keeping your eyes on your own paper helps. But also approaching each other with compassion, empathy and understanding as human beings and healthy boundaries. Learning to speak a clear reasonable need is a good plus. Intentions and expectation management is a good practice.


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> It sounds like y'all became really enmeshed and introverted as a couple.


You may have something there. We've referred to each other as 'the calm in the storm around us'. But perhaps we failed to notice that we were also raging.


----------



## sammy3

Day1, 

I was married 28 yrs when hubs stepped out... I would be married over 30 now if we stayed together. 

We have been living apart for over 3 years. Our stories are very different, but also a like as we are ((were))in long term marriages that are((is))uncoupling. We both have children in their 20's. And maybe we arent to spend the rest of our life with someone we loved for over 25 yrs. 

Believe me, the separating has effects on older children! They had married parents for a long time. 

My husband and I have gone through so many different feelings, emotions, actions, getting back somewhat, not getting back, loving each other again, not loving each other again, so many changes in the past 3 years that we still dont know or have closure. Uncoupling is a lot more than just physically removing our bodies. Like me, you probably grew up most of your adult life with your wife. I feel I am almost at the same stage as my adult son, except I have wisdom and $ behind me, but we both face the same uncertaintly.

One of the hardest lesssons I have had learning in the past 3 years and accepting is, I cant control another person, only myself. Really a hard one for me. And another one, I am exactly where I am to be, or I wouldnt be where I am. And another lesson so hard to learn, and I'm not quite there yet, accepting the two above. 

There is a web site called "Marc & Angel" look into it... may really help when your feeling scared, uncertain, and unsure. Dunno...

You are only a 8 weeks out from leaving 25 years with someone, it's gonna take awhile for it all to make sense...((you would hope)) and for for your kids too. Believe me, it effected my son, he almost failed out of University... but is now in medical school, he now is helping me see that life can go on... ((but you seem ok there))

Hang in there Day1, 


~sammy


----------



## DayOne

Thanks for that. :smthumbup:


----------



## 2xloser

Her reaction says to me she is wary of a meeting where you may be trying to pull her back, maybe? I think it important you not do so. It has not been that long. You are just getting settled into the dull routine of living on your own. Remember, so is she. Let yourselves settle just a bit; you each don't have to have answers as to how you think this will all end up just yet. 

But I just don't see why you can't have a non-intrusive discussion on a lot of what you've shared here. It seems to me there's a little bit of acting going on, and I don't know that it's necessary nor healthy, really. You have stuff on your mind; I don't know why you can't be open to sharing that, so long as it's not in any way pushing her (or you) into decisions. You're concerned for your son. Fine, so share. You are still both parents, so be parents. You are working hard on yourself but are a bit conflicted on sharing that with her. So what's wrong with discussing it, where she can feedback on what she might care to hear or not hear. You think you need a timeline for decision-making. Why not just discuss it, you know, real dialogue? I just see nothing wrong with that type of a coffee meeting to "just talk on some stuff, no drama, nothing too deep".

You appear to be a thoughtful, decent man and I don't know but it seems to me there's starting to appear this need to act in a certain way, instead of just pretty much being yourself with soecific restraint on pulling at her in any way.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## DayOne

2xloser said:


> Her reaction says to me she is wary of a meeting where you may be trying to pull her back, maybe? I think it important you not do so. It has not been that long. You are just getting settled into the dull routine of living on your own. Remember, so is she. Let yourselves settle just a bit; you each don't have to have answers as to how you think this will all end up just yet.
> 
> *I can see what you're saying. I have made clear to her that i'm not looking for reconciliation. That I'm only focused on working on me right now. But i'll gently remind her of that again today.*
> 
> But I just don't see why you can't have a non-intrusive discussion on a lot of what you've shared here. It seems to me there's a little bit of acting going on, and I don't know that it's necessary nor healthy, really. You have stuff on your mind; I don't know why you can't be open to sharing that, so long as it's not in any way pushing her (or you) into decisions. You're concerned for your son. Fine, so share. You are still both parents, so be parents. You are working hard on yourself but are a bit conflicted on sharing that with her. So what's wrong with discussing it, where she can feedback on what she might care to hear or not hear. You think you need a timeline for decision-making. Why not just discuss it, you know, real dialogue? I just see nothing wrong with that type of a coffee meeting to "just talk on some stuff, no drama, nothing too deep".
> 
> You appear to be a thoughtful, decent man and I don't know but it seems to me there's starting to appear this need to act in a certain way, instead of just pretty much being yourself with specific restraint on pulling at her in any way.
> 
> *A helpful smack with a 2x4! And a reminder to just be me. I think part of that is letting the feelings of the other TAM'ers (and other forums) effect my own judgement. It's even started to affect what i post. I find myself holding back for fear of judgement. "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!". This is the way you HAVE to do it!" I think that's what you're picking up on.
> 
> End of the day, i have to be me. If i'm not, she'll see it. And last night helped me get that back. More on that below**
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


*So, last night i went out to dinner with my ex. Not my Wife, my ex.



Now, before you start bouncing off the walls, hear me out. 

This is the girl i went out for a few (16-18?) months, 29 years ago! The sad part is, she's my ONLY ex. She's the only other person i've ever dated. Which means she's the only other woman who 'knows' me. Our break up was.. messy. And didn't go well. And there was a lot of anger (on both sides), for a long time. 

But, here's the important part. I got over it. And we have become friends. Not EA type friends. Just friends. Wife knows of her, isn't threatened by her and we've all been out a few times and had a good time. (Except when the two of them decide to have fun and gang up on me to give me ****!  )

So, i have an ex. Someone i used to go out with, separated from, went through the 7 grieving stages with, and moved on from. And we've become adults about what happened and friends.

Fast forward 29 years later. I've just separated again, and am essentially going through the same range of emotions and troubles. What better resource to help me be able to look at what i'm going through again, than someone i've already learnt from?

So, we went out to dinner last night. And it really helped. I was able to treat the situation as almost a dry run for today. To talk about what i'm going through, what i'm doing to repair myself, without placing blame or making my 'partner' feel uncomfortable or on the back foot. I was able to watch for and react to body language and any doubt/hesitation from 'her'. It helped me to fine tune how i need to broach subjects that may cause 'fight or flight' responses. It helped me vent out what i'm feeling, so when i have to do it again today, it'll be less jumbled and 'vented' as i've already let the emotion behind it out.

And equally i was able to actively listen to what 'she' was saying without reacting, jumping in, interrupting or trying to fix the problem. My ex told me about how she's not doing well in her own loveless marriage, and i was able to recognise my instinctive reaction to 'jump in', 'fix it' and 'rescue', and back it down. 

So it, to me, was an incredibly helpful and learning experience. Which, i think will really help me today and in future meetings. I'll be able to better picture my Wife as someone i've already moved on from, learnt from, and have simply become friends with. 

55 minutes, i better go get ready.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Hope all goes well.


----------



## 2xloser

You already know this, but be extrasuperoverlyreallydefinitelyextra careful with this ex. ALL signs point to this turning into an EA and then some. This is exactly how affairs happen, and whether you consider yourself separated and ok to date or not, it is a situation ripe with opportunity. And I really don't think you want that mess, especially right now. Two adults openly acknowledging problems in their marriage, and their flaws in not jumping into the sack together creates an openness withwalls down that is ultimately hard to keep from igniting. 

I hope it's going well with the wife and you are not being needy, clingy, or beta, but still letting some of that vulnerability come through so that she can see your efforts and mindset.

And when you get back, don't over-analyze every movement, facial expression, body language posture, smile, eye contact, or word. just analyze the overall feeling and aura/vibe you got in your gut from being with her. How was it, overall? Because picking apart ever second is excruciating and exhausting, plus you're probably wrong with half the assessments anyway ;-) 

Hoping it was at least OK or better for you both, and you get some movement or resolution on the adult child issue.


----------



## Nucking Futs

DayOne said:


> A helpful smack with a 2x4! And a reminder to just be me. I think part of that is letting the feelings of the other TAM'ers (and other forums) effect my own judgement. It's even started to affect what i post. *I find myself holding back for fear of judgement. "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!". *This is the way you HAVE to do it!" I think that's what you're picking up on.


You're doing it wrong. Knock that **** off. If you're editing yourself because you're worried about our reaction you're running a risk of slanting the advice toward what you want to hear rather than what you need to hear.


----------



## DayOne

Just got back. We spent 3 hours together. Met for coffee (I paid), found a quiet booth at the back of the shop. And I talked. And talked.

I talked about me. I talked about what i've been going through. The emotions and feelings i've been experiencing, both in therapy and during my own work. What i have seen change as a result of that work. Taking responsibility for my part in causing the toxic relationship. I spoke on beginning to grapple with the actual causes of why i am, what i am, who i am. And i'm working to resolve, overcome those issues. That in the past i have mistakenly tried to work on us. Not me. And that's been the wrong approach. Because it masked my actual issues, and allowed me to pretend i was fixing something. When actually i wasn't.

I spoke of how i had spent the first half of my life living on a miserable relationship (family & environment) and that because we had met so soon after i had escaped that relationship (within 4 months) i had had no chance to grow or move on from that. And that i only had the coping mechanisms from my previous life to apply to my new life. And that they were the wrong ones. I'd failed to ever shake off those attitudes, coping mechanisms, defenses, but instead just adapted them to my new, married life and relationship with her, and in fact the 2nd half of my life in general. And that i'd finally realised this and was working toward learning to change.

I made it clear that I wasn't trying to change for her, for us. I've made that mistake. That what i'm doing is for me. That i have to learn to live with myself. To like myself, and to even love myself. Until I can do that, i'm not willing to consider us trying as a couple. That to think of us as a couple right now runs the real risk of me back sliding. 

I explained what i'm doing to bring about this change. That i'm in therapy, reading several self help books, and also getting advice from relationship forums, with people who have been through similar experiences and learning from them. To help me recognize my own behaviors, triggers. And how to turn them around. She asked which books, and i told her about NMMNG. ( Letting her know about MMSLP would have caused a detachment. Too soon to mention anything with Sex Life in the title). I got the 'look' when i said NO MORE Mr Nice Guy, but explained the basis behind the book is not to NOT stop being a nice guy, but how being a 'Nice Guy' actually causes more problems and instead how to work towards a 'true to yourself guy' (an 'integrated male'). I explained how i recognised myself, giving examples. I explained 'toxic shame' and 'covert contracts', again giving examples of how that affected us (She was nodding every time. She could see what i was saying). She agreed that i haven't been true to myself, and i said that is changing. That she may not like all the differences it makes, but i have to be true to myself. 

(took a break, had a sip of coffee. It was getting cold)

I talked about how i'm not only working on myself mentally, emotionally, but i'm also working on myself physically. We talked about the swimming. She was stunned that i'd made that step. I explained that it was about overcoming my fears. That fears had kept me back. That if i can overcome an obstacle like this, i will find it easier to overcome other obstacles that i may encounter. Including the fact that we may not come out of this together. I got the feeling that she was surprised that I was able to accept this and be 'OK' with it.

I told her i was running. "RUNNING as well!?!??!". She knows about my shin splints, and that i've had a hard time overcoming it. But, again, I explained that it was about overcoming an obstacle to succeed. 

Which brought us on the gym. I said that I was going to sign up for the gym. As it turns out she has been going. With friends from work. As soon as i mentioned it, she asked if i'd like to go with her. 

Which was the perfect opportunity to explain what i mentioned here previously. That I had rejected her offer of gym partners because i was feeling rejected by her not coming walking. And that it had been wrong. That i had been wrong. Instead of talking about my issues about feeling rejected, but instead using to fuel resentment towards her, had caused a unneeded problem (one of many).

Talking about rejection opened her up into talking about how she had felt rejected by me too many times. And that her harder she had tried to reach to me, the harder i had pushed back. Until she couldn't do it anymore. 

A good time to back off and let her talk. (though there had been interaction in the previous conversation).

She spoke about how she had just been driven to the point of feeling invisible. That she didn't matter to me. That even, for example, when we had gone walking i had kept up my usual pace (i'm a fast walker), until she had been left trailing behind. Alone. 

And that is how she felt about us. Left behind. Alone.

And i recognized it. I validated it. I had put my fear of abandonment, of being rejected, in front of accepted a woman who loved me. Who wanted to love and be loved.

(we had gotten through a pile of napkins at this point, i went to get more).

She went on to explain that she's alone now. Really feeling alone. Youngest kid is not there much, and she has even fewer friends than i do. So she's usually alone, with no-one to talk to. 
That she doesn't even have the 'sanctuary' (her word) of being able to talk to me, and she misses that. She has very little furniture, everything is on the floor, including her mattress and only two wooden chairs to sit on. 

She wasn't playing martyr (i've seen it, i know what it looks like), but using it as a metaphor for how she's feeling. 

Her works sucks right now. The impending redundancies are making everyone crazy and morale is in the toilet. It's a miserable place to be, and she comes homes to a miserable place.

The old me would have saddled up the 'white knight' and ridden to the rescue. This me simply sat and listened. At one point she looked at me as if waiting for me to do just that. I noticed it and said 

"Here's the deal. In times gone by, i would have jumped in and suggested this, instructed you to do that, tell you to do X, Y and Z. I'm not going to do that. I'm here to simply listen. As a friend. If you ask for help, i'll offer it. But previously i've not listened, i've just tried to fix it. And then got pissed when you don't do it that way. Those days are gone".

She blinked and gears shifted again. She saw something, and i think she liked it.

I asked her if she's getting counselling. She's not. I didn't get pissed ("meh, she's not trying), just accepted it. I suggested that she consider seeing my counselor. She thought it might not be a good idea, as she's 'my counselor', and what she said in therapy might affect how the counselor treats me . 

I told her i can see her point. However, i felt that this counselor was a professional and would be able to compartmentalize her patients. Bear in mind she knows my Mum and i've told her things about my childhood that would make anyone else think of my 'sweet, loving' Mum in a completely different way.

I said it would also be a good idea if we saw the same counselor as, if we reached a point where marriage counselling, or divorce counselling was agreed, it would make sense to have someone that has a complete history and experience of us. Going to separate counselors and a separate MC would be counter productive as we'd all be working from a separate playbook. 

She asked me to get her an appointment.

We'd been there a couple of hours at this point, and were both exhausted. The coffee was long gone and the seats were getting uncomfortable. We'd talked more productively and learnt more about each other than we had in years. A good point to stop.

I said we should leave any more talking for now, and we should wrap it up. 

But on a gamble threw in an "Instigate, Isolate, Escalate" tactic.

I needed to buy a pair of goggles for swimming. She used to be on the school swim team and a triathlete. So I asked her if she'd like to come with and help me pick out goggles. She agreed.

So we did that. She showed me how to find the right fit and size and i complimented her on her knowledge and appreciated the help she was giving. 

We left the swim shop and I assumed that business was done. That she would say b'bye . But she stayed close to me, and we naturally moved together from the mall. 

She said that she needed to go and find a couch (two wooden chairs, remember). I suggested a place that sold good used furniture. She asked if i'd like to join her and help. I hesitated for a brief second as I thought had an issue with that. "DON'T WANNA HELP YOU MOVE AWAY! Whaaaa"

Then i stomped that down, real quick and manned up. 

She had chosen to help me with something i needed (goggles), so I should reciprocate and help her. Even if it was something i didn't want to do. "I'd love to help"

Walked to the store, she found a couch she liked. Then she also needed to find closets as she has nowhere to put her clothes.


I came this][close to fking up.

Out of nowhere the 'white knight' rode up and tried taking over and fixing things. We have closets here at the house. They're not used as i don't use our bedroom anymore. So i'm all "oh, you can use these, and do that, and blah blah blah".


Then i stopped. I caught it. I recognised, and i rejected the white knight.

She picked up on me switching gears and asked what happened. I explained that i was about to blunder into making the same mistake. Of jumping in and overdoing it. 'Fixing it'. And also of making a covert contract. "if i help her with this, this and this, she'll fall into my arms and all will be right with the world". "That if i give the closets, she'll be wanting to come home soon and bring them back with her."

WRONG! 

So i verbalised what i was doing, what i was about to do. And once it was out there, she got it.

So i backed up and tried a different approach. 

"Here's the deal. I don't see the need for you to spend your money to buy something we already have. I don't use them. You need them. I'd like you to have them, but i'm making it clear that i'm expecting nothing in return. I'm not saying this for you, i'm saying it for me. So i'm clear on what i'm thinking this offer is leading to. Nothing"

She got it. And liked that i was consciously rethinking my processes.

I did suggest that she haggle with the store owner over the couch, but that I was going outside the store before the white knight reappeared and tried to haggle for her. 

A few minutes later she came out and as it turned out had gone for a different couch as she'd worked out that the one she wanted wouldn't fit up the stairs and another one was better, cheaper and came with extra covers! 

Gave her a high five on a job well done and we headed towards our houses. They're in the same direction, so we walked towards her place. On the way we talked about space and respecting it. I explained that i hadn't wanted to know where she lived as it was hard for me to be presented with the physical presence of her apartment, and also i hadn't wanted to run the risk of getting drunk one night and showing up on the front yard, holding up a stereo. She giggled at that, and understood. I said i never want to come into her apartment for the same reason as above, it's her space. She said she would also not want me in there as she feels its her space, and i respected that. 

We got to the end of her street and finished talking and said goodbye.

But i took one last gamble.

MMSLP's 10 second kiss. I told her that i was going to kiss her, but she had to promise to pretend to like it. Just before contact she whispered that she didn't need to pretend. Sure enough, after a few seconds, she responded (as described). 

I broke the kiss, said we should talk again soon, and walked.


----------



## DayOne

Nucking Futs said:


> You're doing it wrong. Knock that **** off. If you're editing yourself because you're worried about our reaction you're running a risk of slanting the advice toward what you want to hear rather than what you need to hear.


Duly 2x4'ed again.  I'm over it. See the post above.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

When I catch my husband doing that fear thing with me I remind him not to fear me.


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> When I catch my husband doing that fear thing with me I remind him not to fear me.


She did.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Hey... Check you out!! You got some smooches!!! And she liked it! Y'all had a great day. That builds a good memory vault.


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> Hey... Check you out!! You got some smooches!!! And she liked it!



It's the first kiss (apart from the goodbye kiss the night she moved out) we've shared in months. And we both liked it. (She cried. Again)


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Now comes the resistence to expect more than she can give for now...


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



DayOne said:


> Just got back. We spent 3 hours together. Met for coffee (I paid), found a quiet booth at the back of the shop. And I talked. And talked.
> 
> I talked about me. I talked about what i've been going through. The emotions and feelings i've been experiencing, both in therapy and during my own work. What i have seen change as a result of that work. Taking responsibility for my part in causing the toxic relationship. I spoke on beginning to grapple with the actual causes of why i am, what i am, who i am. And i'm working to resolve, overcome those issues. That in the past i have mistakenly tried to work on us. Not me. And that's been the wrong approach. Because it masked my actual issues, and allowed me to pretend i was fixing something. When actually i wasn't.
> 
> I spoke of how i had spent the first half of my life living on a miserable relationship (family & environment) and that because we had met so soon after i had escaped that relationship (within 4 months) i had had no chance to grow or move on from that. And that i only had the coping mechanisms from my previous life to apply to my new life. And that they were the wrong ones. I'd failed to ever shake off those attitudes, coping mechanisms, defenses, but instead just adapted them to my new, married life and relationship with her, and in fact the 2nd half of my life in general. And that i'd finally realised this and was working toward learning to change.
> 
> I made it clear that I wasn't trying to change for her, for us. I've made that mistake. That what i'm doing is for me. That i have to learn to live with myself. To like myself, and to even love myself. Until I can do that, i'm not willing to consider us trying as a couple. That to think of us as a couple right now runs the real risk of me back sliding.
> 
> I explained what i'm doing to bring about this change. That i'm in therapy, reading several self help books, and also getting advice from relationship forums, with people who have been through similar experiences and learning from them. To help me recognize my own behaviors, triggers. And how to turn them around. She asked which books, and i told her about NMMNG. ( Letting her know about MMSLP would have caused a detachment. Too soon to mention anything with Sex Life in the title). I got the 'look' when i said NO MORE Mr Nice Guy, but explained the basis behind the book is not to NOT stop being a nice guy, but how being a 'Nice Guy' actually causes more problems and instead how to work towards a 'true to yourself guy' (an 'integrated male'). I explained how i recognised myself, giving examples. I explained 'toxic shame' and 'covert contracts', again giving examples of how that affected us (She was nodding every time. She could see what i was saying). She agreed that i haven't been true to myself, and i said that is changing. That she may not like all the differences it makes, but i have to be true to myself.
> 
> (took a break, had a sip of coffee. It was getting cold)
> 
> I talked about how i'm not only working on myself mentally, emotionally, but i'm also working on myself physically. We talked about the swimming. She was stunned that i'd made that step. I explained that it was about overcoming my fears. That fears had kept me back. That if i can overcome an obstacle like this, i will find it easier to overcome other obstacles that i may encounter. Including the fact that we may not come out of this together. I got the feeling that she was surprised that I was able to accept this and be 'OK' with it.
> 
> I told her i was running. "RUNNING as well!?!??!". She knows about my shin splints, and that i've had a hard time overcoming it. But, again, I explained that it was about overcoming an obstacle to succeed.
> 
> Which brought us on the gym. I said that I was going to sign up for the gym. As it turns out she has been going. With friends from work. As soon as i mentioned it, she asked if i'd like to go with her.
> 
> Which was the perfect opportunity to explain what i mentioned here previously. That I had rejected her offer of gym partners because i was feeling rejected by her not coming walking. And that it had been wrong. That i had been wrong. Instead of talking about my issues about feeling rejected, but instead using to fuel resentment towards her, had caused a unneeded problem (one of many).
> 
> Talking about rejection opened her up into talking about how she had felt rejected by me too many times. And that her harder she had tried to reach to me, the harder i had pushed back. Until she couldn't do it anymore.
> 
> A good time to back off and let her talk. (though there had been interaction in the previous conversation).
> 
> She spoke about how she had just been driven to the point of feeling invisible. That she didn't matter to me. That even, for example, when we had gone walking i had kept up my usual pace (i'm a fast walker), until she had been left trailing behind. Alone.
> 
> And that is how she felt about us. Left behind. Alone.
> 
> And i recognized it. I validated it. I had put my fear of abandonment, of being rejected, in front of accepted a woman who loved me. Who wanted to love and be loved.
> 
> (we had gotten through a pile of napkins at this point, i went to get more).
> 
> She went on to explain that she's alone now. Really feeling alone. Youngest kid is not there much, and she has even fewer friends than i do. So she's usually alone, with no-one to talk to.
> That she doesn't even have the 'sanctuary' (her word) of being able to talk to me, and she misses that. She has very little furniture, everything is on the floor, including her mattress and only two wooden chairs to sit on.
> 
> She wasn't playing martyr (i've seen it, i know what it looks like), but using it as a metaphor for how she's feeling.
> 
> Her works sucks right now. The impending redundancies are making everyone crazy and morale is in the toilet. It's a miserable place to be, and she comes homes to a miserable place.
> 
> The old me would have saddled up the 'white knight' and ridden to the rescue. This me simply sat and listened. At one point she looked at me as if waiting for me to do just that. I noticed it and said
> 
> "Here's the deal. In times gone by, i would have jumped in and suggested this, instructed you to do that, tell you to do X, Y and Z. I'm not going to do that. I'm here to simply listen. As a friend. If you ask for help, i'll offer it. But previously i've not listened, i've just tried to fix it. And then got pissed when you don't do it that way. Those days are gone".
> 
> She blinked and gears shifted again. She saw something, and i think she liked it.
> 
> I asked her if she's getting counselling. She's not. I didn't get pissed ("meh, she's not trying), just accepted it. I suggested that she consider seeing my counselor. She thought it might not be a good idea, as she's 'my counselor', and what she said in therapy might affect how the counselor treats me .
> 
> I told her i can see her point. However, i felt that this counselor was a professional and would be able to compartmentalize her patients. Bear in mind she knows my Mum and i've told her things about my childhood that would make anyone else think of my 'sweet, loving' Mum in a completely different way.
> 
> I said it would also be a good idea if we saw the same counselor as, if we reached a point where marriage counselling, or divorce counselling was agreed, it would make sense to have someone that has a complete history and experience of us. Going to separate counselors and a separate MC would be counter productive as we'd all be working from a separate playbook.
> 
> She asked me to get her an appointment.
> 
> We'd been there a couple of hours at this point, and were both exhausted. The coffee was long gone and the seats were getting uncomfortable. We'd talked more productively and learnt more about each other than we had in years. A good point to stop.
> 
> I said we should leave any more talking for now, and we should wrap it up.
> 
> But on a gamble threw in an "Instigate, Isolate, Escalate" tactic.
> 
> I needed to buy a pair of goggles for swimming. She used to be on the school swim team and a triathlete. So I asked her if she'd like to come with and help me pick out goggles. She agreed.
> 
> So we did that. She showed me how to find the right fit and size and i complimented her on her knowledge and appreciated the help she was giving.
> 
> We left the swim shop and I assumed that business was done. That she would say b'bye . But she stayed close to me, and we naturally moved together from the mall.
> 
> She said that she needed to go and find a couch (two wooden chairs, remember). I suggested a place that sold good used furniture. She asked if i'd like to join her and help. I hesitated for a brief second as I thought had an issue with that. "DON'T WANNA HELP YOU MOVE AWAY! Whaaaa"
> 
> Then i stomped that down, real quick and manned up.
> 
> She had chosen to help me with something i needed (goggles), so I should reciprocate and help her. Even if it was something i didn't want to do. "I'd love to help"
> 
> Walked to the store, she found a couch she liked. Then she also needed to find closets as she has nowhere to put her clothes.
> 
> 
> I came this][close to fking up.
> 
> Out of nowhere the 'white knight' rode up and tried taking over and fixing things. We have closets here at the house. They're not used as i don't use our bedroom anymore. So i'm all "oh, you can use these, and do that, and blah blah blah".
> 
> 
> Then i stopped. I caught it. I recognised, and i rejected the white knight.
> 
> She picked up on me switching gears and asked what happened. I explained that i was about to blunder into making the same mistake. Of jumping in and overdoing it. 'Fixing it'. And also of making a covert contract. "if i help her with this, this and this, she'll fall into my arms and all will be right with the world". "That if i give the closets, she'll be wanting to come home soon and bring them back with her."
> 
> WRONG!
> 
> So i verbalised what i was doing, what i was about to do. And once it was out there, she got it.
> 
> So i backed up and tried a different approach.
> 
> "Here's the deal. I don't see the need for you to spend your money to buy something we already have. I don't use them. You need them. I'd like you to have them, but i'm making it clear that i'm expecting nothing in return. I'm not saying this for you, i'm saying it for me. So i'm clear on what i'm thinking this offer is leading to. Nothing"
> 
> She got it. And liked that i was consciously rethinking my processes.
> 
> I did suggest that she haggle with the store owner over the couch, but that I was going outside the store before the white knight reappeared and tried to haggle for her.
> 
> A few minutes later she came out and as it turned out had gone for a different couch as she'd worked out that the one she wanted wouldn't fit up the stairs and another one was better, cheaper and came with extra covers!
> 
> Gave her a high five on a job well done and we headed towards our houses. They're in the same direction, so we walked towards her place. On the way we talked about space and respecting it. I explained that i hadn't wanted to know where she lived as it was hard for me to be presented with the physical presence of her apartment, and also i hadn't wanted to run the risk of getting drunk one night and showing up on the front yard, holding up a stereo. She giggled at that, and understood. I said i never want to come into her apartment for the same reason as above, it's her space. She said she would also not want me in there as she feels its her space, and i respected that.
> 
> We got to the end of her street and finished talking and said goodbye.
> 
> But i took one last gamble.
> 
> MMSLP's 10 second kiss. I told her that i was going to kiss her, but she had to promise to pretend to like it. Just before contact she whispered that she didn't need to pretend. Sure enough, after a few seconds, she responded (as described).
> 
> I broke the kiss, said we should talk again soon, and walked.


AWESOME!!!

Well done, brother.

Did you guys set another coffee date?


----------



## Nucking Futs

DayOne said:


> Just got back. We spent 3 hours together. Met for coffee (I paid), found a quiet booth at the back of the shop. And I talked. And talked.
> 
> I talked about me. I talked about what i've been going through. The emotions and feelings i've been experiencing, both in therapy and during my own work. What i have seen change as a result of that work. Taking responsibility for my part in causing the toxic relationship. I spoke on beginning to grapple with the actual causes of why i am, what i am, who i am. And i'm working to resolve, overcome those issues. That in the past i have mistakenly tried to work on us. Not me. And that's been the wrong approach. Because it masked my actual issues, and allowed me to pretend i was fixing something. When actually i wasn't.
> 
> I spoke of how i had spent the first half of my life living on a miserable relationship (family & environment) and that because we had met so soon after i had escaped that relationship (within 4 months) i had had no chance to grow or move on from that. And that i only had the coping mechanisms from my previous life to apply to my new life. And that they were the wrong ones. I'd failed to ever shake off those attitudes, coping mechanisms, defenses, but instead just adapted them to my new, married life and relationship with her, and in fact the 2nd half of my life in general. And that i'd finally realised this and was working toward learning to change.
> 
> I made it clear that I wasn't trying to change for her, for us. I've made that mistake. That what i'm doing is for me. That i have to learn to live with myself. To like myself, and to even love myself. Until I can do that, i'm not willing to consider us trying as a couple. That to think of us as a couple right now runs the real risk of me back sliding.
> 
> I explained what i'm doing to bring about this change. That i'm in therapy, reading several self help books, and also getting advice from relationship forums, with people who have been through similar experiences and learning from them. To help me recognize my own behaviors, triggers. And how to turn them around. She asked which books, and i told her about NMMNG. ( Letting her know about MMSLP would have caused a detachment. Too soon to mention anything with Sex Life in the title). I got the 'look' when i said NO MORE Mr Nice Guy, but explained the basis behind the book is not to NOT stop being a nice guy, but how being a 'Nice Guy' actually causes more problems and instead how to work towards a 'true to yourself guy' (an 'integrated male'). I explained how i recognised myself, giving examples. I explained 'toxic shame' and 'covert contracts', again giving examples of how that affected us (She was nodding every time. She could see what i was saying). She agreed that i haven't been true to myself, and i said that is changing. That she may not like all the differences it makes, but i have to be true to myself.
> 
> (took a break, had a sip of coffee. It was getting cold)
> 
> I talked about how i'm not only working on myself mentally, emotionally, but i'm also working on myself physically. We talked about the swimming. She was stunned that i'd made that step. I explained that it was about overcoming my fears. That fears had kept me back. That if i can overcome an obstacle like this, i will find it easier to overcome other obstacles that i may encounter. Including the fact that we may not come out of this together. I got the feeling that she was surprised that I was able to accept this and be 'OK' with it.
> 
> I told her i was running. "RUNNING as well!?!??!". She knows about my shin splints, and that i've had a hard time overcoming it. But, again, I explained that it was about overcoming an obstacle to succeed.
> 
> Which brought us on the gym. I said that I was going to sign up for the gym. As it turns out she has been going. With friends from work. As soon as i mentioned it, she asked if i'd like to go with her.
> 
> Which was the perfect opportunity to explain what i mentioned here previously. That I had rejected her offer of gym partners because i was feeling rejected by her not coming walking. And that it had been wrong. That i had been wrong. Instead of talking about my issues about feeling rejected, but instead using to fuel resentment towards her, had caused a unneeded problem (one of many).
> 
> Talking about rejection opened her up into talking about how she had felt rejected by me too many times. And that her harder she had tried to reach to me, the harder i had pushed back. Until she couldn't do it anymore.
> 
> A good time to back off and let her talk. (though there had been interaction in the previous conversation).
> 
> She spoke about how she had just been driven to the point of feeling invisible. That she didn't matter to me. That even, for example, when we had gone walking i had kept up my usual pace (i'm a fast walker), until she had been left trailing behind. Alone.
> 
> And that is how she felt about us. Left behind. Alone.
> 
> And i recognized it. I validated it. I had put my fear of abandonment, of being rejected, in front of accepted a woman who loved me. Who wanted to love and be loved.
> 
> (we had gotten through a pile of napkins at this point, i went to get more).
> 
> She went on to explain that she's alone now. Really feeling alone. Youngest kid is not there much, and she has even fewer friends than i do. So she's usually alone, with no-one to talk to.
> That she doesn't even have the 'sanctuary' (her word) of being able to talk to me, and she misses that. She has very little furniture, everything is on the floor, including her mattress and only two wooden chairs to sit on.
> 
> She wasn't playing martyr (i've seen it, i know what it looks like), but using it as a metaphor for how she's feeling.
> 
> Her works sucks right now. The impending redundancies are making everyone crazy and morale is in the toilet. It's a miserable place to be, and she comes homes to a miserable place.
> 
> The old me would have saddled up the 'white knight' and ridden to the rescue. This me simply sat and listened. At one point she looked at me as if waiting for me to do just that. I noticed it and said
> 
> "Here's the deal. In times gone by, i would have jumped in and suggested this, instructed you to do that, tell you to do X, Y and Z. I'm not going to do that. I'm here to simply listen. As a friend. If you ask for help, i'll offer it. But previously i've not listened, i've just tried to fix it. And then got pissed when you don't do it that way. Those days are gone".
> 
> She blinked and gears shifted again. She saw something, and i think she liked it.
> 
> I asked her if she's getting counselling. She's not. I didn't get pissed ("meh, she's not trying), just accepted it. I suggested that she consider seeing my counselor. She thought it might not be a good idea, as she's 'my counselor', and what she said in therapy might affect how the counselor treats me .
> 
> I told her i can see her point. However, i felt that this counselor was a professional and would be able to compartmentalize her patients. Bear in mind she knows my Mum and i've told her things about my childhood that would make anyone else think of my 'sweet, loving' Mum in a completely different way.
> 
> I said it would also be a good idea if we saw the same counselor as, if we reached a point where marriage counselling, or divorce counselling was agreed, it would make sense to have someone that has a complete history and experience of us. Going to separate counselors and a separate MC would be counter productive as we'd all be working from a separate playbook.
> 
> She asked me to get her an appointment.
> 
> We'd been there a couple of hours at this point, and were both exhausted. The coffee was long gone and the seats were getting uncomfortable. We'd talked more productively and learnt more about each other than we had in years. A good point to stop.
> 
> I said we should leave any more talking for now, and we should wrap it up.
> 
> But on a gamble threw in an "Instigate, Isolate, Escalate" tactic.
> 
> I needed to buy a pair of goggles for swimming. She used to be on the school swim team and a triathlete. So I asked her if she'd like to come with and help me pick out goggles. She agreed.
> 
> So we did that. She showed me how to find the right fit and size and i complimented her on her knowledge and appreciated the help she was giving.
> 
> We left the swim shop and I assumed that business was done. That she would say b'bye . But she stayed close to me, and we naturally moved together from the mall.
> 
> She said that she needed to go and find a couch (two wooden chairs, remember). I suggested a place that sold good used furniture. She asked if i'd like to join her and help. I hesitated for a brief second as I thought had an issue with that. "DON'T WANNA HELP YOU MOVE AWAY! Whaaaa"
> 
> Then i stomped that down, real quick and manned up.
> 
> She had chosen to help me with something i needed (goggles), so I should reciprocate and help her. Even if it was something i didn't want to do. "I'd love to help"
> 
> Walked to the store, she found a couch she liked. Then she also needed to find closets as she has nowhere to put her clothes.
> 
> 
> I came this][close to fking up.
> 
> Out of nowhere the 'white knight' rode up and tried taking over and fixing things. We have closets here at the house. They're not used as i don't use our bedroom anymore. So i'm all "oh, you can use these, and do that, and blah blah blah".
> 
> 
> Then i stopped. I caught it. I recognised, and i rejected the white knight.
> 
> She picked up on me switching gears and asked what happened. I explained that i was about to blunder into making the same mistake. Of jumping in and overdoing it. 'Fixing it'. And also of making a covert contract. "if i help her with this, this and this, she'll fall into my arms and all will be right with the world". "That if i give the closets, she'll be wanting to come home soon and bring them back with her."
> 
> WRONG!
> 
> So i verbalised what i was doing, what i was about to do. And once it was out there, she got it.
> 
> So i backed up and tried a different approach.
> 
> "Here's the deal. I don't see the need for you to spend your money to buy something we already have. I don't use them. You need them. I'd like you to have them, but i'm making it clear that i'm expecting nothing in return. I'm not saying this for you, i'm saying it for me. So i'm clear on what i'm thinking this offer is leading to. Nothing"
> 
> She got it. And liked that i was consciously rethinking my processes.
> 
> I did suggest that she haggle with the store owner over the couch, but that I was going outside the store before the white knight reappeared and tried to haggle for her.
> 
> A few minutes later she came out and as it turned out had gone for a different couch as she'd worked out that the one she wanted wouldn't fit up the stairs and another one was better, cheaper and came with extra covers!
> 
> Gave her a high five on a job well done and we headed towards our houses. They're in the same direction, so we walked towards her place. On the way we talked about space and respecting it. I explained that i hadn't wanted to know where she lived as it was hard for me to be presented with the physical presence of her apartment, and also i hadn't wanted to run the risk of getting drunk one night and showing up on the front yard, holding up a stereo. She giggled at that, and understood. I said i never want to come into her apartment for the same reason as above, it's her space. She said she would also not want me in there as she feels its her space, and i respected that.
> 
> We got to the end of her street and finished talking and said goodbye.
> 
> But i took one last gamble.
> 
> MMSLP's 10 second kiss. I told her that i was going to kiss her, but she had to promise to pretend to like it. Just before contact she whispered that she didn't need to pretend. Sure enough, after a few seconds, she responded (as described).
> 
> I broke the kiss, said we should talk again soon, and walked.


You couldn't have handled that any better.:smthumbup:


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> AWESOME!!!
> 
> Well done, brother.
> 
> Did you guys set another coffee date?


Not yet. We were both completely wrung out after 3 hours. The idea of doing it again would have been too much. Also, It's an issue of space. We came together, we shared, we talked, we moved forward. 

Now it's time to back away a bit and let what happened sink in and rewire. You wouldn't decide to join a gym, do a three HOUR crossfit session, and expect to be able to maintain that every day. You'd break something. To me, it's the same thing for us. We've had an intense 3 hour workout, it's time to rest for a while. Let these newly exercised emotional muscles heal and grow stronger.

BUT, when she was talking about her work and how shiat it's going, she said that she missed being able to talk to me about it like she used to. And that the stress has, on occasion, made her relapse into an occasional bottle.

I offered that when it gets too much and she feels like she needs to offload, to not drink it off, but to please call me and we'd go for coffee or a drink (juice) instead. 

HOWEVER, i explained that on my side, i would be dealing with it in a different way. 

Instead of riding in and trying to save the day by trying to fix everything. I would only be there as a friend, to listen. To validate. If she actually needed help, to ask. 

Rather than me give it, unrequested, and then fall into the convert contract, rejected advice trap.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



DayOne said:


> Not yet. We were both completely wrung out after 3 hours. The idea of doing it again would have been too much. Also, It's an issue of space. We came together, we shared, we talked, we moved forward.
> 
> Now it's time to back away a bit and let what happened sink in and rewire. You wouldn't decide to join a gym, do a three HOUR crossfit session, and expect to be able to maintain that every day. You'd break something. To me, it's the same thing for us. We've had an intense 3 hour workout, it's time to rest for a while. Let these newly exercised emotional muscles heal and grow stronger.
> 
> BUT, when she was talking about her work and how shiat it's going, she said that she missed being able to talk to me about it like she used to. And that the stress has, on occasion, made her relapse into an occasional bottle.
> 
> I offered that when it gets too much and she feels like she needs to offload, to not drink it off, but to please call me and we'd go for coffee or a drink (juice) instead.
> 
> HOWEVER, i explained that on my side, i would be dealing with it in a different way.
> 
> Instead of riding in and trying to save the day by trying to fix everything. I would only be there as a friend, to listen. To validate. If she actually needed help, to ask.
> 
> Rather than me give it, unrequested, and then fall into the convert contract, rejected advice trap.


Perfect.


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> Now comes the resistance to expect more than she can give for now...


I'm all OVER that. Meeting the ex last night really helped. I was able to gain a different perspective, and hold myself back today. To be able to look on my Wife as an 'ex'. Which, in a way, she is. And treat her accordingly. 

BTW, I did tell the Wife about meeting the ex for dinner. I explained why (reasons above), and she was OK with it. She did ask me if we were dating. I assured her that we're not. That i had, in fact, 'used' my ex as a resource. That today had me scared witless and being able to take a 'dry run' had been of huge benefit, to both of us.

Edit: I am, however, very conscious of the danger of falling into the trap of thinking I'm 'winning'.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



DayOne said:


> I'm all OVER that. Meeting the ex last night really helped. I was able to gain a different perspective, and hold myself back today. To be able to look on my Wife as an 'ex'. Which, in a way, she is. And treat her accordingly.
> 
> BTW, I did tell the Wife about meeting the ex for dinner. I explained why (reasons above), and she was OK with it. She did ask me if we were dating. I assured her that we're not. That i had, in fact, 'used' my ex as a resource. That today had me scared witless and being able to take a 'dry run' had been of huge benefit, to both of us.


How was her demeanor when she asked if you two were dating?


----------



## DayOne

2xloser said:


> You already know this, but be extrasuperoverlyreallydefinitelyextra careful with this ex. ALL signs point to this turning into an EA and then some. This is exactly how affairs happen, and whether you consider yourself separated and ok to date or not, it is a situation ripe with opportunity. And I really don't think you want that mess, especially right now. Two adults openly acknowledging problems in their marriage, and their flaws in not jumping into the sack together creates an openness withwalls down that is ultimately hard to keep from igniting.
> 
> *No sack jumping here. We've known each (as exes, for years) and i have no connection to her. To be completely honest, the white knight did, for a brief second, try to saddle up and put the ex in 'soft focus' while she was telling me about her crap marriage. But i kicked his a$$ back to the stable, real quick. *
> 
> I hope it's going well with the wife and you are not being needy, clingy, or beta, but still letting some of that vulnerability come through so that she can see your efforts and mindset.
> 
> And when you get back, don't over-analyze every movement, facial expression, body language posture, smile, eye contact, or word. just analyze the overall feeling and aura/vibe you got in your gut from being with her. How was it, overall? Because picking apart ever second is excruciating and exhausting, plus you're probably wrong with half the assessments anyway ;-)
> 
> Hoping it was at least OK or better for you both, and you get some movement or resolution on the adult child issue.



So, how did i do?


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> How was her demeanor when she asked if you two were dating?


Nervous. But i quickly laid that to rest. I was very clear that the ex had been used as a resource to help me deal with today, not as a viable 'option'. 

She appeared to accept that as the truth. Finishing up with an MMSLP kiss (and having her willingly accept and respond to it) sealed the deal. 

IF there were (and there aren't) any shenanigans going on with the ex, i'm hardly likely to tell Wife that I went out for dinner with my ex the night before. That's a level of double bluff that i couldn't pull off!


----------



## 2xloser

Not that you need my validation  but uou know damn well how you did! which is a real good thing :smthumbup:
I'm proud of you.
I'm proud that you're proud of you.
I'm proud that wifey is back home thinking SHE is proud of you.
...and I'm real proud of your thinking on the aftermath, and for not pushing it from there; for realizing to take "well done" and let it settle in, take root, and just BE.

Bask in it a little. But frankly, resist all urge to do ANYthing to follow up. And what's ironic is, not following up is now what she'd hope/expect you to do, because you've been open and vulnerable enough to set that expectation.

I almost welled up reading your coffee visit story! 
Stay the course, sir. Stay the course; do not veer.


----------



## DayOne

I actually had the temptation, and the opportunity, to try for a 'follow up' this evening. I had an invite to dinner from a couple who have been mutual friends of ours for years. 

Wife's apartment and my house are 2 blocks apart. The restaurant we went to was slap bang between us. 

I was thisclose to asking Wife if she wanted to make a foursome. But knew that was a bad move. We'd had our day together, we'd accomplished so much. But now was the time to back away into our corners, rest, review, and allow the events of the day to grow and strengthen.


----------



## DayOne

The long a££ed post above was written literally as I got in the door after our meeting. 

Too often, in the past, we've talked, made progress, made agreements on behaviour, attitude, etc... And then I forget what was agreed. D1ck move! 

So now, I write up after every meeting, as soon as I can. Minutes if you like, so I can look and remember what was said.


----------



## DayOne

.... And this is why I make notes! I'm lying in bed, reviewing today, and realise I left a massive point out! 

I had been talking to Wife about last week's therapy session, and that the therapist had asked me at the beginning of the session, "do you still love your Wife?". 

I then related to Wife that I could only truthfully say to the therapist "I don't know". (which put an "oh shiat!" look on Wife's face) And for the rest of the session, I was all over place. Couldn't stay on topic, was visibly agitated, arms flailing (nearly took out her lampshade!) 

And that for a couple of days after that I remained 'triggered'. Totally disconnected and in a funk. Until the night that I couldn't sleep. That's when I wrote the unsent letter I posted above. 

I didn't tell Wife what I had written in the letter, and to be honest the content of the letter wasn't important. What was important, and I didn't realise it at the time, but only when I was telling her the story, was that by allowing all that toxic energy to be released into the letter, a purer energy remained. 

And that I no longer didn't know whether I still loved her or not, but I did finally know the answer. And that it's that I do love her. 

I then went on to explain that I can't love her as I did before. What I have to do is to fall in love with her all over again. A new love, bringing none of the toxins, negativity from my previous relationship with her. In fact my preference would be, that if we did decide to reconcile, to date her as though we had just met. Because that is, in a way, what we'd be doing. I won't be the man she left, she would be dating someone new. 

Hope she likes him!


----------



## 2xloser

DayOne said:


> Hope she likes him!


I hope she does, too.

A small aside: I also hope he takes the time to reflect and be positively sure that the new 'him' likes HER as well.


----------



## honcho

You two listened to each other, you didn’t get into a fight. Neither of you put pressure on yourselves to make decisions or ultimatums. You both had a comfort level. No matter how this all turns out for you in the long run, it was a good day.
Inviting her to dinner would have been too much or pushy and would have been awkward with the other couple. As you wrote, let things sink in and don’t push too hard.


----------



## DayOne

I was exhausted today. Took the dogs for walk, did a bit of work around the house, but flaked out after that. I beat myself up over that a bit, but realised what i had gone through yesterday, and accepted that today was to be a healing day. 


She came over at 2. To get a missing part for a cabinet, an agreed situation from yesterday. And we talked again. I spoke further on my progress. About how my treatment as a child had affected me as an adult. How i was so fearful of being mistreated, i would reject people before they had a chance to hurt me. An illogical course of action, but i had stuck to for too many years. Even people i was meeting for the first time would be pushed away, or presented with a gruff, unapproachable person.

This only served to have the opposite effect from the one i would truly have wanted. I became attuned to keeping people at arms length, distant, to prevent the danger of any harm, any pain. coming to me. 

I spoke again of how i had entered into a relationship, before i had recovered from the damage of my childhood and previous life. I told her about the beating i had from StepDad, which i mistakenly thought she knew about. It came as a shock to her. We spoke of how i had 'stopped' smiling in photos of me as a kid. She had noticed that in the past. I said that i had developed shields to (as i thought) protect me from harm, but applied them to everyone i knew, "just in case". All that had done was to push those around me away, especially those closest to me.

She noticed all my notes taped up around the kitchen, the pile of notepads and books, printouts in the living room. Notes on what had been said the previous day, with my thoughts, my observations. 5 pages of it. She said that when she got home yesterday, she just wanted to curl up into a ball. She was jealous of all the work i have put into changing myself, the progress i've made. That she didn't know if she could be that strong, to be able to move forward. 

We sat in the living room. She cried, i cried. I told her i was crying because it hurt me that i couldn't help her, i couldn't fix her, i couldn't save her. But that i accepted that she had to be the one to help herself, to heal herself. That i knew she has the power to do it, but she has to find it herself. 

She visited the bathroom, to check on my cabinet and to use the scales. She loved how the cabinet had turned out and she had lost 14lbs! I congratulated her on her achievement and accepted the praise about the cabinet. She also noticed the ceilings and doors i'd painted.

We spoke of youngest son, and how she had relayed to him what i had said yesterday. That although i was still angry at him for how he had treated us, and his behavior, the hatred had gone. When i had passed him in the street yesterday, i had wanted to hug him and tell him it will be OK. She told me that he had said he wants to be like me. I said that I want him to be like who i'm GOING to be.

We talked about curtains. I was going to take the curtain from the landing window and hang it in my room as it would be an upgrade on what's currently there. She mentioned that there are spare curtains if needed. I appreciated her advice and will use that idea of hers to hang the spare ones in the bedroom and keep the ones i was going to use on the landing window.

I told her i was concerned yesterday that she had drank off her work stress. She said the bottle of wine was a one off. That she doesn't drink regularly anymore. That when she drank, it had lost it's flavour, it's enjoyment. That she has been going to the gym to work off her stress instead. More praise from me. But i said that when it got too much, don't be afraid to talk to someone about it. Don't hold it in. That I would even be there, as a friend, if she need someone to offload her work stress on. 

I told her it was time to wrap it up as i had to go to the store. She asked if she could come with as she also needed to go. So we walked there together. On the way she talked about a female co-worker neighbour that she rides to work with, who is also having a relationship issue. That they talk about their relationship issues, but Wife is reluctant to open up to her completely. I suggested that she try to gradually open up to her as it would be helpful for her to be learn to express what she's feeling to someone. And that the co-worker would be a good choice. 

At the store, she got her stuff, i got mine. Then we walked back together. On the way back I said that yesterday and today had been an amazing experience for me, she agreed the same for her. I reminded her that we should give each other some space again for a while, to recover.

She agreed that we need that space, but countered that because it's my Mums birthday on Thursday, she wanted us to take her out to dinner. Just the three of us, all other family being out of town, stepdad is in long term residential care, so she'd be all alone on her B'day.

I agreed that it would be a nice gesture, but made sure we understood it's an occasion for my Mum, and we would be there strictly as friends and family for her. 

I did tell her that i had been tempted to ask her to join me and my friends last night, but had chosen not to. She said that i had made the right choice and that it would have felt like i was pushing. 

She came to me, kissed me goodbye, and I came home.


----------



## DayOne

Now back to hitting the books!


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



DayOne said:


> I was exhausted today. Took the dogs for walk, did a bit of work around the house, but flaked out after that. I beat myself up over that a bit, but realised what i had gone through yesterday, and accepted that today was to be a healing day.
> 
> 
> She came over at 2. To get a missing part for a cabinet, an agreed situation from yesterday. And we talked again. I spoke further on my progress. About how my treatment as a child had affected me as an adult. How i was so fearful of being mistreated, i would reject people before they had a chance to hurt me. An illogical course of action, but i had stuck to for too many years. Even people i was meeting for the first time would be pushed away, or presented with a gruff, unapproachable person.
> 
> This only served to have the opposite effect from the one i would truly have wanted. I became attuned to keeping people at arms length, distant, to prevent the danger of any harm, any pain. coming to me.
> 
> I spoke again of how i had entered into a relationship, before i had recovered from the damage of my childhood and previous life. I told her about the beating i had from StepDad, which i mistakenly thought she knew about. It came as a shock to her. We spoke of how i had 'stopped' smiling in photos of me as a kid. She had noticed that in the past. I said that i had developed shields to (as i thought) protect me from harm, but applied them to everyone i knew, "just in case". All that had done was to push those around me away, especially those closest to me.
> 
> She noticed all my notes taped up around the kitchen, the pile of notepads and books, printouts in the living room. Notes on what had been said the previous day, with my thoughts, my observations. 5 pages of it. She said that when she got home yesterday, she just wanted to curl up into a ball. She was jealous of all the work i have put into changing myself, the progress i've made. That she didn't know if she could be that strong, to be able to move forward.
> 
> We sat in the living room. She cried, i cried. I told her i was crying because it hurt me that i couldn't help her, i couldn't fix her, i couldn't save her. But that i accepted that she had to be the one to help herself, to heal herself. That i knew she has the power to do it, but she has to find it herself.
> 
> She visited the bathroom, to check on my cabinet and to use the scales. She loved how the cabinet had turned out and she had lost 14lbs! I congratulated her on her achievement and accepted the praise about the cabinet. She also noticed the ceilings and doors i'd painted.
> 
> We spoke of youngest son, and how she had relayed to him what i had said yesterday. That although i was still angry at him for how he had treated us, and his behavior, the hatred had gone. When i had passed him in the street yesterday, i had wanted to hug him and tell him it will be OK. She told me that he had said he wants to be like me. I said that I want him to be like who i'm GOING to be.
> 
> We talked about curtains. I was going to take the curtain from the landing window and hang it in my room as it would be an upgrade on what's currently there. She mentioned that there are spare curtains if needed. I appreciated her advice and will use that idea of hers to hang the spare ones in the bedroom and keep the ones i was going to use on the landing window.
> 
> I told her i was concerned yesterday that she had drank off her work stress. She said the bottle of wine was a one off. That she doesn't drink regularly anymore. That when she drank, it had lost it's flavour, it's enjoyment. That she has been going to the gym to work off her stress instead. More praise from me. But i said that when it got too much, don't be afraid to talk to someone about it. Don't hold it in. That I would even be there, as a friend, if she need someone to offload her work stress on.
> 
> I told her it was time to wrap it up as i had to go to the store. She asked if she could come with as she also needed to go. So we walked there together. On the way she talked about a female co-worker neighbour that she rides to work with, who is also having a relationship issue. That they talk about their relationship issues, but Wife is reluctant to open up to her completely. I suggested that she try to gradually open up to her as it would be helpful for her to be learn to express what she's feeling to someone. And that the co-worker would be a good choice.
> 
> At the store, she got her stuff, i got mine. Then we walked back together. On the way back I said that yesterday and today had been an amazing experience for me, she agreed the same for her. I reminded her that we should give each other some space again for a while, to recover.
> 
> She agreed that we need that space, but countered that because it's my Mums birthday on Thursday, she wanted us to take her out to dinner. Just the three of us, all other family being out of town, stepdad is in long term residential care, so she'd be all alone on her B'day.
> 
> I agreed that it would be a nice gesture, but made sure we understood it's an occasion for my Mum, and we would be there strictly as friends and family for her.
> 
> I did tell her that i had been tempted to ask her to join me and my friends last night, but had chosen not to. She said that i had made the right choice and that it would have felt like i was pushing.
> 
> She came to me, kissed me goodbye, and I came home.


You are doing amazing. You are disciplining your emotions in your interaction with her. Given your past, you are to be congratulated. Most people struggle with it without the same past as you.

And all appearances are your wife is into the new you.

Again, well done.


----------



## just got it 55

DayOne said:


> I was exhausted today. Took the dogs for walk, did a bit of work around the house, but flaked out after that. I beat myself up over that a bit, but realised what i had gone through yesterday, and accepted that today was to be a healing day.
> 
> 
> She came over at 2. To get a missing part for a cabinet, an agreed situation from yesterday. And we talked again. I spoke further on my progress. About how my treatment as a child had affected me as an adult. How i was so fearful of being mistreated, i would reject people before they had a chance to hurt me. An illogical course of action, but i had stuck to for too many years. Even people i was meeting for the first time would be pushed away, or presented with a gruff, unapproachable person.
> 
> This only served to have the opposite effect from the one i would truly have wanted. I became attuned to keeping people at arms length, distant, to prevent the danger of any harm, any pain. coming to me.
> 
> I spoke again of how i had entered into a relationship, before i had recovered from the damage of my childhood and previous life. I told her about the beating i had from StepDad, which i mistakenly thought she knew about. It came as a shock to her. We spoke of how i had 'stopped' smiling in photos of me as a kid. She had noticed that in the past. I said that i had developed shields to (as i thought) protect me from harm, but applied them to everyone i knew, "just in case". All that had done was to push those around me away, especially those closest to me.
> 
> She noticed all my notes taped up around the kitchen, the pile of notepads and books, printouts in the living room. Notes on what had been said the previous day, with my thoughts, my observations. 5 pages of it. She said that when she got home yesterday, she just wanted to curl up into a ball. She was jealous of all the work i have put into changing myself, the progress i've made. That she didn't know if she could be that strong, to be able to move forward.
> 
> We sat in the living room. She cried, i cried. I told her i was crying because it hurt me that i couldn't help her, i couldn't fix her, i couldn't save her. But that i accepted that she had to be the one to help herself, to heal herself. That i knew she has the power to do it, but she has to find it herself.
> 
> She visited the bathroom, to check on my cabinet and to use the scales. She loved how the cabinet had turned out and she had lost 14lbs! I congratulated her on her achievement and accepted the praise about the cabinet. She also noticed the ceilings and doors i'd painted.
> 
> We spoke of youngest son, and how she had relayed to him what i had said yesterday. That although i was still angry at him for how he had treated us, and his behavior, the hatred had gone. When i had passed him in the street yesterday, i had wanted to hug him and tell him it will be OK. She told me that he had said he wants to be like me. I said that I want him to be like who i'm GOING to be.
> 
> We talked about curtains. I was going to take the curtain from the landing window and hang it in my room as it would be an upgrade on what's currently there. She mentioned that there are spare curtains if needed. I appreciated her advice and will use that idea of hers to hang the spare ones in the bedroom and keep the ones i was going to use on the landing window.
> 
> I told her i was concerned yesterday that she had drank off her work stress. She said the bottle of wine was a one off. That she doesn't drink regularly anymore. That when she drank, it had lost it's flavour, it's enjoyment. That she has been going to the gym to work off her stress instead. More praise from me. But i said that when it got too much, don't be afraid to talk to someone about it. Don't hold it in. That I would even be there, as a friend, if she need someone to offload her work stress on.
> 
> I told her it was time to wrap it up as i had to go to the store. She asked if she could come with as she also needed to go. So we walked there together. On the way she talked about a female co-worker neighbour that she rides to work with, who is also having a relationship issue. That they talk about their relationship issues, but Wife is reluctant to open up to her completely. I suggested that she try to gradually open up to her as it would be helpful for her to be learn to express what she's feeling to someone. And that the co-worker would be a good choice.
> 
> At the store, she got her stuff, i got mine. Then we walked back together. On the way back I said that yesterday and today had been an amazing experience for me, she agreed the same for her. I reminded her that we should give each other some space again for a while, to recover.
> 
> She agreed that we need that space, but countered that because it's my Mums birthday on Thursday, she wanted us to take her out to dinner. Just the three of us, all other family being out of town, stepdad is in long term residential care, so she'd be all alone on her B'day.
> 
> I agreed that it would be a nice gesture, but made sure we understood it's an occasion for my Mum, and we would be there strictly as friends and family for her.
> 
> I did tell her that i had been tempted to ask her to join me and my friends last night, but had chosen not to. She said that i had made the right choice and that it would have felt like i was pushing.
> 
> She came to me, kissed me goodbye, and I came home.


DO amazing progress I have a wonderful marriage now for the last 3 years and I am learning from your posts

I think your are getting it.

Keep up the great work

55


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> You are doing amazing. You are disciplining your emotions in your interaction with her. Given your past, you are to be congratulated. Most people struggle with it without the same past as you.
> 
> And all appearances are your wife is into the new you.
> 
> Again, well done.





just got it 55 said:


> Dude, amazing progress I have a wonderful marriage now for the last 3 years and I am learning from your posts
> 
> I think your are getting it.
> 
> Keep up the great work
> 
> 55


 Thanks. But credit is due to the amazing people i've met here. I've taken all i've learnt here and apply it to myself and how i interact with her. If i hadn't had the advice and support of you all (and the occasional 2x4!), I may not have been where i am now. 

Still early days, but I think i'm definitely moving on from where i am now, and far from where i was. 

I have, on my living room wall, 3 three sheets of A4 paper (that's 'letter' size for some of you). One is marked 'Past', one is marked 'Future', the one in the middle is marked 'Me'.

Past to the left, Future to the right, Me in the middle. As i feel like i've improved, i move 'Me' gradually towards the Future.

This weekend, how I dealt with myself, with my Wife, how i dealt with us, warranted a move of 'Me' towards the right. The Future. Only a shift of a couple of inches perhaps, but progress is marked. 

But now, this week, i take myself to task. It's vital that i don't fall into the trap of thinking "i've made it". I monitor how i'm feeling, how i'm feeling towards her. To maintain my 'self' and not slack off for an instant. As i said, back to the books. Focus on myself. Put her away for the week (until Thursday anyway)

Counselling tomorrow, a lot to go over.


Taking a break for this evening. Turning off all thoughts of the weekend, going outside to the fire pit and catching up on all my missed TV shows.


----------



## DayOne

And one last observation from today. She's still wearing her rings.


----------



## DayOne

Yes, I know I shouldn't have, but I sent her a text later. (waiting for 2x4's...)



> (I know I shouldn't, as we should take a break, but I felt I had to. After this I'll step back) You are a strong, independent, resilient, intelligent woman. More than you know. When you feel like you're not, that you want to 'curl up', to give in, remember that you have endured so much and yet still survived. Although it may not feel like it now, you can make it. Believe in yourself half as much as I believe in you and you'll find the power to move forward.


----------



## farsidejunky

Okay, a small 2×4. Don't give her so much that you don't leave her wanting more. That is all.


----------



## 2xloser

A few random thoughts for you to think on, or discard at your pleasure:
- you're doing great, obviously. Remember to manage the pace of events and breakthroughs with her now. The rush of sharing, seeing her positive reactions, can be a bit addictive. So just be cautious. You know this, but take that advice above: always leave her wanting more. And leave yourself wanting more, too.

- Just a thought, she may be wearing her rings just for/around you, and not always. Very unlikely, but it was my first thought. (Some of us have learned to see the neagitve side of everything, LOL.)

- I think a key step for you to start thinking about is how you get beyond "being in transition as a new thing, exploring a new you" and migrate to that transformation just being who and where you are, without having to be all explantry or preachy about it... meaning that it just gets accepted as something that is going on and you are comfortable with, not overly broken and struggling with it all. Because beyond what you have openly shared already, there's not a whole lot more to actually say without it becomIng always THE topic. There is more to you than the reform, and at some point that's got to matter. And because at some point (no, not yet), you as a work-in-progress starts to feel like it has a beginning and an end (like your sticky pages suggest). I'd propose that the journey never ends, we're never 'there'... but we do get comfortable that we're in a journey, and convey that comfort without a soapbox about it, if that makes any sense at all.

- Now that you've done a lot of the talking, sharing, and work here, I feel that you need to resist the desire to make the next "non-date" time together. Per the point above about leaving her wanting more, I think it important the next get-together after mum's bday should be of her doing, not yours. You've laid it out there, admirably, and she sees it. An appropriate follow through to living it now would be to ensure that you not call and invite her anywhere. While I hate the game of this, in this case I think it you practicing what you preach is important.


----------



## DayOne

2xloser said:


> A few random thoughts for you to think on, or discard at your pleasure:
> 
> *Nothing discarded, all advice welcome and considered. *
> 
> - you're doing great, obviously. Remember to manage the pace of events and breakthroughs with her now. The rush of sharing, seeing her positive reactions, can be a bit addictive. So just be cautious. You know this, but take that advice above: always leave her wanting more. And leave yourself wanting more, too.
> 
> - Just a thought, she may be wearing her rings just for/around you, and not always. Very unlikely, but it was my first thought. (Some of us have learned to see the negative side of everything, LOL.)
> 
> *What I saw in her at the weekend was nothing but openness and honesty, no guile. I think she's wearing the rings because she does still feel married, but wasn't able to be with who she had married.*
> 
> - I think a key step for you to start thinking about is how you get beyond "being in transition as a new thing, exploring a new you" and migrate to that transformation just being who and where you are, without having to be all explantry or preachy about it... meaning that it just gets accepted as something that is going on and you are comfortable with, not overly broken and struggling with it all. Because beyond what you have openly shared already, there's not a whole lot more to actually say without it becoming always THE topic. There is more to you than the reform, and at some point that's got to matter. And because at some point (no, not yet), you as a work-in-progress starts to feel like it has a beginning and an end (like your sticky pages suggest). I'd propose that the journey never ends, we're never 'there'... but we do get comfortable that we're in a journey, and convey that comfort without a soapbox about it, if that makes any sense at all.
> 
> *Wise words, and appreciated.*
> 
> - Now that you've done a lot of the talking, sharing, and work here, I feel that you need to resist the desire to make the next "non-date" time together. Per the point above about leaving her wanting more, I think it important the next get-together after mum's bday should be of her doing, not yours. You've laid it out there, admirably, and she sees it. An appropriate follow through to living it now would be to ensure that you not call and invite her anywhere. While I hate the game of this, in this case I think it you practicing what you preach is important.
> 
> *Let her come to me now, or run the risk of being the pursuer. I see what you're saying. And it's a good time to let her make the next move (which is kinda what i did on the way back from the store. I consciously kept a slighter wider gap than usual between us as we said goodbye, to allow her to come to me if she chose. And she did, to kiss me goodbye.
> 
> I am considering the next invite for her, but it's not until mid December. I was going to ask her if she'd like to watch my last swim class. Far enough away not to be 'too soon', and perhaps meaningful to her as she knows of my lifelong struggle with water.*


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yes, now is time to let what I call "drying it off" happen. 

You've had an solid, positive emotional event.

Let those emotions dry off. Allow time for full processing. Calm acceptance to return, letting it sit on the soul for a bit to savor it. I bet she reaches out before you finish that process.


----------



## DayOne

Had a run in with the 'white knight' this morning. Sneaky fker had me texting the counselor to let her know Wife wanted to setup an appointment. Counselor said she doesn't do IC for couples, due to conflict of interest. (understandable), so I started an text convo about recommendations, etc, blah blah. 'WANNA FIX-IT NOW!' 

Fortunately my counselor has more sense than me, reminded me that we have a session this evening, and cut the convo off, real quick. 

Some self massage with the 2x4 and i'm seeing what i'm doing. Add it to the learning experience.


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yes, now is time to let what I call "drying it off" happen.
> 
> You've had an solid, positive emotional event.
> 
> Let those emotions dry off. Allow time for full processing. Calm acceptance to return, letting it sit on the soul for a bit to savor it. I bet she reaches out before you finish that process.


Working on that. Struggling a bit, but i will regain focus. Run at lunchtime, counselling this evening.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DayOne said:


> Working on that. Struggling a bit, but i will regain focus. Run at lunchtime, counselling this evening.


Great choices.


----------



## Regretf

DayOne.

I have been reading your posts the last few days. You have made some amazing advances, positive changes. She's seeing that. Patience and keep going forward. I see more light in your situation and i feel a lot of hope with you too. May God always be with you.


----------



## DayOne

Regretf said:


> DayOne.
> 
> I have been reading your posts the last few days. You have made some amazing advances, positive changes. She's seeing that. Patience and keep going forward. I see more light in your situation and i feel a lot of hope with you too.


Thank you for your positive feedback. Read the update on your thread. Going to have a think about it.


----------



## Regretf

DayOne said:


> And one last observation from today. She's still wearing her rings.


Mine still is too. I guess for some people marriage IS important, and your wife IS STILL married to you, even separated i'm shure she still feels married to you, hence the rings.


----------



## DayOne

Funnily enough, i took mine off and put in the safe.

I did this on 'd-day', initially because I was pi££ed off (as you do!). But i've decided to keep it off. But my reason now is different.

I leave it off as a reminder that, until we reconnect, IF we reconnect, i'm not to focus on 'us'. I'm not to think about our marriage. About BEING married. Because it will throw me off course.

I'm to work on ME. To make myself into someone that I want to be with. And eventually a woman, maybe even my woman, would want to be with, to be married to. 

When and IF i decide to put the ring back on, it'll mark a gateway for me that i've reached that point, and it's time to be a husband again. 

(of course, after this weekend, it also kinda means i'm starting a new relationship with a married woman!  )


----------



## Regretf

DayOne said:


> Funnily enough, i took mine off and put in the safe.
> 
> I did this on 'd-day', initially because I was pi££ed off (as you do!). But i've decided to keep it off. But my reason now is different.
> 
> I leave it off as a reminder that, until we reconnect, IF we reconnect, i'm not to focus on 'us'. I'm not to think about our marriage. About BEING married. Because it will throw me off course.
> 
> I'm to work on ME. To make myself into someone that I want to be with. And eventually a woman, maybe even my woman, would want to be with, to be married to.
> 
> When and IF i decide to put the ring back on, it'll mark a gateway for me that i've reached that point, and it's time to be a husband again.
> 
> (of course, after this weekend, it also kinda means i'm starting a new relationship with a married woman!  )


I have to admire your strong will DayOne. You shure are in the right path at leas for yourself i think

I haven't taken mine off.


----------



## DayOne

Just back from counselling. Totally shattered. This self discovery stuff is exhausting! Tuning out for the evening.

But, there was accidental positive that occurred. Decided to walk to therapy, instead of drive. As i went down my road, i recognized Wife heading home. (Very distinctive walk, and i've been checking out 'dat a$$' for 24 years, i'd know it anywhere  )

Caught up with her and she was freaking out. Some drunk guy had been talking to her and creeping her out, and seemed to be hanging around. 

So i walked her to her street. 

The white knight rides again! But this time using his power for good, not evil!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yes it is. My day of self discovery last night was rough. So today I will focus on regaining strength, getting rest. You will process yesterday for a while, so just switch into kindness to self mode.


----------



## DayOne

2xloser said:


> I hope she does, too.
> 
> A small aside: I also hope he takes the time to reflect and be positively sure that the new 'him' likes HER as well.


I'm liking the new light i see in her face when she looks at me now. But making sure i'm not blinded by it.


----------



## DayOne

One thing about last evening, when I 'rescued' Wife from some drunk guy on the street. When i caught up with her, she was on the phone to youngest son, as a 'just in case' measure. 

She done it before (called when nervous on the street), to me.

She said she had called youngest son instead of me "as she didn't want to bother me".

I told her to knock that shiat off. In a situation like that, all NC/LC rules go out the window. She calls me, she comes to the house (it's closer to the bus stop she uses), she can even go wait in the yard or the garage if i'm not around. 

But she's NEVER to feel that our current situation means that i'm not available if she feels threatened by a stranger on the street.


----------



## DayOne

Well, she came by this evening. A justified visit. One of our dogs spent the day at the vets as she has been ill for a while and had to go in for blood tests and X-rays.

Wife had tried calling and texting to find out how the dog was, but I was driving and then later left the phone in the car while i was in the vets due to phone going nuts getting several texts and calls from other concerned family members and friends. 

I had no update to give any of them until had seen the vet, so no point in repeating "No updates" to all parties until i had one. 

Anywho, got the dog back, left the vets and Wife was there as i pulled up at home. She'd been worried (about us both) after not hearing back, and wanted to make sure we were OK. She'd even detoured from her gym session (opposite direction), and had left friends waiting. So it was a nice gesture from her. As was offering to help with vet expenses. 

So i invited her in and gave her all i knew about the diagnosis (was diagnosed as possibly Addison's disease, but later ruled out). 

Chit chatted about this and that, then she asked if i had managed to get counselor recommendations. I gave her the cards i had been given, and also a book recommendation. 

I also suggested she look into local divorce support groups. She said "But i don't want a divorce!", I replied that they deal with separation as well. She wasn't willing to go to a support group as a) she doesn't like opening up to anyone, especially a bunch of strangers (which is fair enough, i'm not big on it either), and b) that she was concerned it would be filled with a bunch of burnt, spiteful, men-hating women ("and i don't hate men". I think she was including me in that) 

So i suggested perhaps TAM (other forums are available) as a possible source for help, and a place where you can just express how you feel, what you're going through, anonymously. No real names needed. And, some of the other posters offer very helpful advice and guidance. At least you have for me!

But i made it clear that the suggestions were just that. I was strictly hands off. This was (as i explained), a clarity for me, more than her. A verbalization so I understood that i was not to help any further. All i was doing was offering some tools, what she builds with it is up to her.


----------



## Faithful123

Wonderful reading and work Dayone, your work and insight has helped me on my journey immeasurably.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks.


----------



## farsidejunky

Her response to the group suggestion is pretty positive. 

Keep at it, brother.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Her response to the group suggestion is pretty positive.
> 
> *I did like that. Was said quite forcefully too. I don't think her reason for moving out was to prepare for divorce. She has said it was because she just needed to get space, to get away from our toxic relationship. And i can see it was the right move, for both of us.*
> 
> Keep at it, brother.
> 
> *Thanks. Sometimes feels like i'm full of shiat, and i'm just faking it, but affirmations and reiterations help to strengthen my self belief. Did catch myself reflecting on past mistakes this morning while driving to work, but gave myself a good 2x4ing. What's past is past.*


----------



## LongWalk

Separation often leads to divorce. It is the statistical reality.


----------



## DayOne

LongWalk said:


> Separation often leads to divorce. It is the statistical reality.


Yeah, i get that. And i'm not pretending that we might not end up there. But it was nice to hear her say that it wasn't currently her intention.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

LongWalk said:


> Separation often leads to divorce. It is the statistical reality.


Its why my H and I use it strategically and always make it short as possible while working towards reuniting. His first one was a week, the second one was two months, this one was almost a week. And we have mutually agreed to separate from time to time strategically to protect our progress.


----------



## DayOne

Last evening went well. Out for Mum's birthday dinner, just the three of us (Jamie Oliver restaurant, for those over here). 

Wife and I had agreed that we would try not to talk about 'us' during the dinner, and it was surprisingly easy. We had a great time, good conversation, and pleasant company. Just three friends, out for a meal. The closest we got to talking about 'us' was both agreeing during the conversation about getting another glass of wine (for her), that we'd been drinking to try and numb the pain of our 'relationship'. When Mum said that sometimes it's good to have a companional drink together, we looked at each other and cracked up. It's because we had gotten to the point of never drinking together (or anything else). I'd drink outside by the firepit, every night, and she'd drink indoors in front of the TV. A small, but shared source of amusement and recognition of the 'life' we didn't have together.

Mum got a taxi home, and Wife and i accompanied each other back towards our houses. 

So we were now free to talk again about us. We agreed that we had been able to have a great evening, without having to follow any 'rules', or feel constricted. In the heat of the moment, i dived in and gave her quick kiss. *

She told me she has an appointment with one of the therapists i'd given her next Tuesday, and that she is getting the book i'd had recommended.

But what impressed me is that she'd researched both the book and the therapists before deciding. She'd really put thought into it, rather than just doing it because she 'had to'. 

One thing had come up during dinner was that she had mentioned building a bed frame, as her mattress was on the floor at the apartment. She hadn't taken our bed frame with her. 

Mum said that she has a bed frame at her house that isn't used and Wife could just have that. Wife seemed to disengage slightly at that point. Still involved in conversation, but wheels were turning. A few minutes later she said "thank you for the offer, but building the frame is something i want to do, need to do". She didn't say it forcefully, but with confidence.

Again, i was really impressed with that. We both suffer from a fear of failure, which has too often prevented us from attempting new things. When she has put her mind to it, she has made some really stunning things. So to see all this happening shows me she is moving forward. And i validated her for her efforts.

Got to the end of her block, but talked some more. About where i'm at right now. That i'm progressing really well with changing my attitudes, my way of thinking. But that i'm afraid of accepting these changes, believing in them. She suggested that it's because i don't believe in myself, and she had a point. I don't, yet. When i feel that these changes aren't being used, applied, but actually ingrained. That they are my thought processes, rather than something i have to think about, then i'll believe in them, in me. 

Until then, if i slack off, slow down, start to think that I've 'done it' before i actually have, I fear the very real risk of back sliding. And, as i told her, I don't want to go back. To be whom i used to be. Because he was miserable. I'm not (most of the time). 

When will that time be? I have no idea. But like an alcoholic, or other form of addict, i have 40+ years of ingrained behavior to change. This isn't going to happen in a month, or two. 

At this point I said we both have to get up for work tomorrow, so called it quits, and left. *

* I have to be very careful. I kissed her after dinner as we were both caught up in a 'high' of having had a great time together, but i deliberately kept my distance and left without kissing her on her block. 

I felt i had to do the 2nd thing as I've been having feelings toward her, the kind of deeper feelings i haven't had in a long time, this week. I've even been fantasizing about her, at night, if you catch my drift. This hasn't happened in a very long time.

And this worries me. I can't let her back into my thoughts, in that way, yet. I think it will throw me off course, stop my progress. That I may convince myself that it's all OK now. But it's not. 

So, i will for now, have to keep a distance. But i will continue to explain why. I think she'll understand. She may even be of the same mindset. 


Gym induction tonight, so a bit of a distraction. And it means that i'll be able to work off some of this anxiety going forward.

Sunday is going to be a problem. It would have been our 23rd wedding anniversary. I'm going to find something to do to keep my mind off it. Not mope around.


----------



## DayOne

In other news, work is getting a lot better. Still not enough actual work to fill up my day and keep me distracted, so instead i use the down time to re-read NMMNG and MMSLP. I've also started His Needs, Her Needs. But i'm not connecting as much with that one. I can see the reasoning behind some of the principles (eg; 15 hours a week together, and ONLY doing joint recreational activities, none of your 'own'), but convinced that I need to make a modified version of those. 

Edit: Also working on having (rather than just projecting) a positive attitude at the office. Definitely being noticed, from the feedback i've been given by co-workers, users and team lead. He reviews my previously issued PIP on a weekly basis with me, and so far it's been a complete 180 in attitude. PIP will expire and fizzle out next month. 

Work will pick up, as we're about to undertake a company wide rollout of new PCs and Windows 7 (i'm in the IT dept), with the additional bonuses of overtime and travel around the country. But i've made it clear to them that i'll require advance notice of hours and travel as i have to make sure the dogs are OK. I can leave them with family when i'm out of town, and Wife has offered to 'babysit' them if i'm going to be late home. Which is a nice gesture. 

Wasn't thrilled about having to do this (dog logistics), but money is tight right now. I'm just about hanging on financially, but a nest egg would be useful. As my only other fund raising option would be to sell the 'classic' car that I've had for over 12 years.

But i've made a choice that instead of 'having problems', i'm 'finding solutions'. And also learning to break the NG habit of being unable to accept help.


----------



## farsidejunky

I think the fact that your wife offered to help is great for both of you.

Keep it up, brother. I'm still very hopeful for the two of you.


----------



## DayOne

BTW, She's not wearing her rings after all (had a better look). But she IS wearing a friendship (Claddagh) ring on that finger instead.


----------



## 2xloser

DayOne said:


> BTW, She's not wearing her rings after all (had a better look). But she IS wearing a friendship (Claddagh) ring on that finger instead.


Hmmmm, not the greatest indication. How did it make you feel? Did she perhaps take hers off after she noticed yours was off? 

Perhaps this is a 'future conversation point' for you to bring up down the road, as an indicator for where things stand between you two after your new reality has settled in a bit. 

With this time for stepping back from one another, is it time you over-indulged in talking or being with the son who's apparently got some issues to get off his chest? How is it going with him nowadays?


----------



## DayOne

I didn't raise it at the time, but it's something that will be addressed. My reasons are already posted above, and i'll explain them to her. My finger is vacant, she chose to keep something on hers. Could be a positive rather than a negative, but I'm choosing not to read too much into it either way. 

Oldest son is still absent. But there was post on FB earlier this week where he said he'd worked 31 hours in 48. So i'm going with the "too busy to make time", over the "don't want to make time" at this point.


Youngest son, i'm just not ready for him yet. Thinking about him is the only thing now that triggers an anger response in me. He's with his Mom, and still has the fiance. According to Wife, he's still working on his own issues. He's come to the realization that money (his), is a finite resource. Wife makes him pay his rent towards the apt, and is holding him to that. She buys just what they need in regards food, and if he wants anything else for himself, to a) pay for it himself, b) get off his a$$ and go get it from the store himself. When she does the weekly shop, he has to go with her and help carry it back the apt. 

I give her mad props for this. Up till now, he's been a lazy, self centred little fker. So to hear that she's come down on him and forcing him to shape up is a massive deal. He's not liking it, but seems to be doing as he's told. 

I was worried that he'd push her around like he did with us, but seems like she's stomped him. Loving that.


----------



## DayOne

Induction and first 'session' (trying out the machines) at The Gym. Realised that I need a plan of attack. Booked a PT for tomorrow. (assuming i can raise my arms again by then...)


----------



## Faithful123

I like that you say dating may happen, it shows you are well ahead of the game, holding hope but no false expectations. It's a slow process and working on ourselves is a priority before any reconnect can start or continue. Keep up the good work dayone, your posts and story while different from mine give me some valuable lessons in my journey.


----------



## DayOne

Kinda blows my mind that you guys think that i'm so on top of it. But i guess that comes down to my self esteem issues. The positive feedback helps. Perhaps i am doing it right! 

There's still a lot of dark times for me, when my mind goes to places it shouldn't. The cold hand of infidelity fear has been clutching at my heart today, more than usual. It's a tough one to stomp down when it grabs me. I'm as sure as i can be that she's not stepping out (as sure as anyone can be anyway), but it's always there. 

Kept myself busy today, to try and stay distracted (with limited success). More house painting, lunch, then out with the dogs across the fields. Quick break now, then outside to cut firewood.


----------



## Regretf

DayOne said:


> Kinda blows my mind that you guys think that i'm so on top of it. But i guess that comes down to my self esteem issues. The positive feedback helps. Perhaps i am doing it right!
> 
> There's still a lot of dark times for me, when my mind goes to places it shouldn't. The cold hand of infidelity fear has been clutching at my heart today, more than usual. It's a tough one to stomp down when it grabs me. I'm as sure as i can be that she's not stepping out (as sure as anyone can be anyway), but it's always there.
> 
> Kept myself busy today, to try and stay distracted (with limited success). More house painting, lunch, then out with the dogs across the fields. Quick break now, then outside to cut firewood.


p back
I hear Dayone, the insecurity of not having your wife living with you makes your mind wonder and think stupid things.

In on hand you have to step back but in the other you just cant stop the comunication between you too, that will open up more the distance.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Correct. It takes balance.


----------



## farsidejunky

That will be there as long as this separation goes on. I wish it were easier but it is not. Prayers to you, brother.


----------



## DayOne

I think it's been triggered by a combination of 

a) Tomorrow weighing on my mind. (going to go with a text early tomorrow morning: "I know we're no longer together, but I just wanted to let you know I'll be thinking about you today")

and 

b) Now that last week's multiple interactions and the birthday are done, there's going to be NC for a while. Just as i got used to talking to her again. 


She's moved back, into my head. Got to find a way back to square #1. Which maybe why i'm imagining 'infidelity'. Creating a negative makes it easier to push her out. (except it doesn't)


----------



## Faithful123

That's a lovely text, the NC really makes it difficult especially after spending time together. Your feelings and thoughts are to be expected. Just remember your emotions and thoughts can be very powerful so somehow you have to balance that against your rational mind. When you think about things like that ask some simple questions like, Am I exaggerating? Is this really true? Am I making things out to be worse than they are? Am I forgetting the positives? Am I being fair to myself? I use some of these an it allows my rational mind to kick in and bring back my thinking coupled with distraction it can help.


----------



## DayOne

Faithful123 said:


> That's a lovely text, the NC really makes it difficult especially after spending time together. Your feelings and thoughts are to be expected. Just remember your emotions and thoughts can be very powerful so somehow you have to balance that against your rational mind. When you think about things like that ask some simple questions like, Am I exaggerating? Is this really true? Am I making things out to be worse than they are? Am I forgetting the positives? Am I being fair to myself? I use some of these an it allows my rational mind to kick in and bring back my thinking coupled with distraction it can help.


Good words. Definitely hearing them ring true. 

If you go into the MC session with the thought processes and positive attitude you post up here, you're going to kick a$$! :smthumbup:


----------



## just got it 55

DO Balance is everything. 

I have always believed that

Funny thing is I am a Libra and don't believe in that sort of stuff 

also my favorite symbol is the scales of justice

55


----------



## LongWalk

In general I suspect the purpose of trial separation is divorce, at least as far as the requesting party goes.

Divorce at once seems abrupt. It is therefore that there is a waiting period. But once the physical separation has taken place, the end of intimacy is a relief for the spouse seeking to end the marriage.

How common is it for the WAW to try sex with someone new and decide that regardless of whether it is a success, the bond of exclusivity is forever broken.

I suspect that a couple years after a marriage is over, it is possible for a divorced spouse to fall in love again, but that is mainly when the divorced spouse has moved on and is attractive because they are happy and no longer available.


----------



## Red Sonja

LongWalk said:


> In general I suspect the purpose of trial separation is divorce, at least as far as the requesting party goes.
> 
> Divorce at once seems abrupt. It is therefore that there is a waiting period. But once the physical separation has taken place, the end of intimacy is a relief for the spouse seeking to end the marriage.
> 
> How common is it for the WAW to try sex with someone new and decide that regardless of whether it is a success, the bond of exclusivity is forever broken.
> 
> I suspect that a couple years after a marriage is over, it is possible for a divorced spouse to fall in love again, but that is mainly when the divorced spouse has moved on and is attractive because they are happy and no longer available.


Not always and not in my case. For me separation was an attempt to end my personal agony, an end to the “spin cycle” of trying to improve a marriage with an uninterested partner. Before I moved out it had long since been at the point of my spouse living a completely independent life and rarely interacting with me or our daughter. 

So, in my case separation was not an “end of intimacy” but rather an end to being in a relationship and being alone at the same time.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Red Sonja said:


> Not always and not in my case. For me separation was an attempt to end my personal agony, an end to the “spin cycle” of trying to improve a marriage with an uninterested partner. Before I moved out it had long since been at the point of my spouse living a completely independent life and rarely interacting with me or our daughter.
> 
> So, in my case separation was not an “end of intimacy” but rather an end to being in a relationship and being alone at the same time.


That was me and my ex...


----------



## 2xloser

Not sure I love the text, but of course it's a day that has to be acknowledged, even simply.

I dunno, you're doing just fine thus far so of course go for it, but if it were me... maybe I'd be more inclined to go with something less pining for her, like "As difficult as all of this is, it's nevertheless been nice seeing you these last few days and today of course will be a rough one."

And fwiw, I think it perfectly OK to simply admit to yourself (and us): she never moved out of your head, despite how well you're doing. It's natural.

Stay strong today, I know it's going to be challenging. I'm embarassed to tell you how flat-out disgustingly drunk I was in foreign country on my first anniversary after I moved out. Don't do that, it doesn't help one bit 

Good luck today.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks 2x. No booze for me, I'm halfway through a self imposed dry month.


----------



## DayOne

Today: 

Work phone went off at 7am as i'm the duty on call guy today. Then i sent her the text i posted above. 

She'd emailed me the night before:



> Hi, I just want to acknowledge our Anniversary. Although I don't think it is really a Happy Anniversary I do believe that it is positive in that we are taking a step back to look at ourselves to improve our own lives. I wish you all the best in your journey and am here as a friend if you ever need to talk.
> 
> With love. Wife.


The "as a friend" triggered me a bit, but a couple of TAMmers helped put me straight. So to change my thinking, i'm focusing on the fact that 'friends' is an big improvement on what we were before D-Day. 

Replied back with the following:



> Thank you for reaching out (you beat me to it!  ). Last night was tough, the closer it got to today, the worse i felt. Ended up having to take a Nytol. But reading your email let me know that i'm not the only one thinking about today.
> 
> So I'm not going to ignore today or the feelings it will bring. Instead, I'm going to face it head on. I'm going to acknowledge it for the special day it was. I'm not going to mope around, or analyze what went wrong since that day, or make a list of regrets and what-ifs. I'm simply going to remember the love I felt that day and the joy i've felt while you were in my life.


And now, throwing myself into the day. More house painting, bit of mindless TV, then off to the gym for my PT session. Plenty of jobs to do when i get back, then an early night as i have to be up for work early tomorrow.


----------



## LongWalk

> I'm simply going to remember the love I felt that day and the joy i've felt while you were in my life.


Good answer. This last statement of fact puts the ball in her court. The end of your marriage is her decision. You cannot beg or plead for her to change it.

Should you live in hope that she will want you back? Even this seems like an idle impulse.

Just go on living without her. One of these days, you'll figure out that you want to see other women or you'll hear that she is seeing other men or you'll just file for divorce or she'll beat you to it.


----------



## DayOne

LongWalk said:


> Should you live in hope that she will want you back? Even this seems like an idle impulse.
> 
> Just go on living without her. One of these days, you'll figure out that you want to see other women or you'll hear that she is seeing other men or you'll just file for divorce or she'll beat you to it.


Have you ever considered changing your avatar to:












Appreciate what you're saying, but that particular path is not yet on our journeys. So, at least for now, knock it off with the negative waves.


----------



## LongWalk

I am not trying to jinx your chances of R. You are doing a good job. Your wife is no longer looking out for you.



> Hi, I just want to acknowledge our Anniversary.
> *Acknowledgement means you had the power to hurt each other.*
> Although I don't think it is really a Happy Anniversary *You were not good for me*I do believe that it is positive in that we are taking a step back to look at ourselves to improve our own lives.*I was dumb to stay as long as I did, but at last I can take responsibility for my own happiness.* I wish you all the best in your journey *We are not on a journey together*and am here as a friend if you ever need to talk.*I realize that to go on in life I cannot give into hate. I bear you no ill will and feel better for it. Please do not cling to me.*


I could be wrong.

Your wife is doing this very decently.


----------



## DayOne

Leave it. At least for today, of all days. I'm staying positive, focusing on the now.


----------



## DayOne

In brighter news, tried the bathroom scales. 194! (down from 216) Now off to the gym to get rid of some more!


----------



## 2xloser

LongWalk said:


> One of these days, you'll figure out that you want to see other women or you'll hear that she is seeing other men or you'll just file for divorce or she'll beat you to it.


...or you could find yourselves eventually back together in a different but better marriage, essentially starting over in many important ways. 

However, LW is still right:


LongWalk said:


> Just go on living without her.


A new & improved, better you is still for YOU, whether it leads back to her or not. Just don't lose sight of that. Because you're going to be OK, either way.

And I still want to see you get around other people more. You're doing a great job of keeping busy, occupational therapy if you will, but sooner or later that house is going to be painted...!

The rest, yes -- for another day. Hope you're doing OK today, bro.


----------



## DayOne

I hear what you (2x and LW) are saying about 



> Just go on living without her.


Just have to get back to that. I was doing well, but fell off the wagon, so to speak. 

As far as meeting people, there's a running club at work, the people from swimming, and now i'll have the gym to start meeting people and having some real world interaction. I'm not a particularly social guy, but cabin fever is definitely setting in.


----------



## LongWalk

Go discover the best local music.


----------



## LongWalk

The third song is happy


----------



## sammy3

It is very intresting reading your story. To be able to be so honest with each other and yourself is really a great thing! What is even better is that each other understand and are on the same page. Not many are this lucky. Nor can be this honest. Nor not get hurt and wounded by each others thoughts, or actions. 

I've been separated from my partner, but still stay in touch. Even thou we have been in touch 24/7, I often ask myself, "Do I know you?" "Do we know each other anymore?" I've been with this man for over 30+ years. I realized the other day, it wasnt because we didnt want to, it is because we just havent shared our life together in the past 3.5 years. We've just grown farther apart, different experiences and grown into different people away from the people we shared who were were together before as. 

My separation for us, lead me to inner search, where my hubsand separation lead him searching for us... 


Separation it self opens up awhole lot of different questions than the questions of working it out together, especially in a long term marriage. 

Way to early to even know where your story is going, but I can tell you this, the life you knew is anything but ... 
...it's like the bell has been rung.

~sammy


----------



## DayOne

sammy3 said:


> It is very intresting reading your story. To be able to be so honest with each other and yourself is really a great thing! What is even better is that each other understand and are on the same page. Not many are this lucky. Nor can be this honest. Nor not get hurt and wounded by each others thoughts, or actions.
> 
> *Two parts to the answer. We are quite alike and seem to be in accord most of the time. Soul mates? I don't know about that, we do connect (did connect?) in a lot of ways. I haven't been honest with her in the past, NG issues could be blamed for that (or i was just a d1ck..), but that was grown out of. The night before she left, she told me she trusted me. It meant a lot, especially as we going through discussions about breaking up and logistics, an incredibly difficult time with numerous opportunities for things to get heated. But here wasn't any of that. I think because we'd both finally stopped. Stopped fighting, stopped hurting each other.
> 
> However, when we don't 'mesh'.. OMG, it gets messy. We are terrible at conflict resolution, but that had improved too, i think. (though, as recent events have shown, i've been oblivious to what was actually happening). The fights, ugh. I cringe when i think about them. Stupid fights over stupid stuff. Every possible piece of ammunition would get used. If you've read His Needs. Her Needs, and the chapter (7) regarding "The enemies of intimate conversation" and the 'enemies', we were both guilty of employing every enemy on that list. Multiple times.*
> 
> I've been separated from my partner, but still stay in touch. Even thou we have been in touch 24/7, I often ask myself, "Do I know you?" "Do we know each other anymore?" I've been with this man for over 30+ years. I realized the other day, it wasnt because we didnt want to, it is because we just havent shared our life together in the past 3.5 years. We've just grown farther apart, different experiences and grown into different people away from the people we shared who were were together before as.
> 
> My separation for us, lead me to inner search, where my hubsand separation lead him searching for us...
> 
> 
> Separation it self opens up a whole lot of different questions than the questions of working it out together, especially in a long term marriage.
> 
> Way to early to even know where your story is going, but I can tell you this, the life you knew is anything but ...
> ...it's like the bell has been rung.
> 
> *Not quite sure if that's a positive or negative last couple of sentences. But end of the day, it will be what we make it to be.*
> 
> 
> 
> ~sammy


NB: reading my main response above, it could be concluded that we are not right for each other. And that's possible. However, i still feel the good outweighed the bad. As i've mentioned here before (and to her), if we were to give it another go, it would not, could not be as the marriage we had before.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Day I know that you have enough to keep you busy, but Imight I suggest that you look to see if a local college offers classes in the evening....or perhaps a bookstore that offers a book club where you can interface with individuals with similar taste...


----------



## DayOne

Good idea, thanks. Definitely need to get out more, but balanced against having to leave the dogs alone. But will look into it.


----------



## sammy3

OP,
All I meant was there is no going back to what it was, only going forward now towards the journey your on... 

~sammy


----------



## DayOne

sammy3 said:


> OP,
> All I meant was there is no going back to what it was, only going forward now towards the journey your on...
> 
> ~sammy


Truth! :smthumbup:


----------



## DayOne

Well, made it through most of yesterday. Until about 4pm. Then it all came crashing down. Was talking to my Sister on the phone about their caravaning holiday and this n that. Then she asked how i was doing, and i replied with an "oh yeah, its all good" type answer. 

Sister saw right through that, and told me to come over. Got to hers, she gave me a huge hug, and i lost it. 

I don't think my Sister has ever seen me cry. At least not in a long time. 

Eventually i got it together again. Hung out for a couple of hours. We (Sis, Bro in Law and I) didn't really talk about me. Just innocuous stuff, like caravanning, work, Mums birthday and the restaurant we had taken her to. At first i was like "hey, what about me!" And then i realised that's not really what i needed. Just being able to release (cry) with someone i trusted had been enough to help me move on from all that had build up over the last 24 hours. 

Came home feeling a lot better and already with one foot back on the wagon. Chilled out last night, kinda avoided the forums, took a Nytol and went to bed early (10:30). 

Work at 7am. One positive i've noticed recently is how i am at the office. I'm on the helpdesk (2nd/3rd line) and one of the 'great ideas' the suits had was for us to floorwalk the building twice a day and make sure all the users are OK.

Before D-Day, i used to pi$$ and moan about having to deal with users (if you're in IT, you'll understand). But since D-Day something happened. I use the floorwalking as a way of creating interactions with people. To find ways to approach people i don't know, and to overcome my self-consciousness and make conversation. This has always been a problem for me. I'm finding it easier to do now. I even occasionally 'flirt' with the lady users. Not anything serious, no interest in that. It's just a way to stomp down on my shyness. Totally nailed it this morning. One of the ladies had had her hair done over the weekend, and i noticed it. Complemented her on how nice it looked. Her colleagues heard me saying it, they kinda made fun of it, but in a light hearted way. Bear in mind that that particular dept used to have less than flattering view of me (the old me), it felt good to have them look at me in a positive way.

But work is kinda quiet, so browsed and found myself in the http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-...9154-separated-wife-really-want-her-back.html thread, where i found a lot of inspiration. Copied out a lot of quotes that i'll be adding to my kitchen gallery. 

eg: (credit to the posters below for some great reading)



> What I am learning from my reading is that I'm a Nice Guy, I'm a codependent. That I focus on others instead of myself by habit, not by nature. I always thought of myself as "good natured" but I'm just a doormat. I'm learning that I have little confidence and little self-respect, and that's why I allow myself to be treated the way I have been, and that's why I still feel what I do.





> I want to find my authentic self, I have memories of him, I liked that guy. Now, where to find him? I feel kind of like I am finding him, but days like today, he's nowhere to be seen again.
> 
> Because she's blocking your view.





> I truly hate who I was during the marriage; with a passion. I always made an excuse for who I was and what I wanted to do (nothing for myself - therefore becoming a less productive husband and father).
> I didn't take the initiative to better myself on a daily basis; convinced that being the stagnant ME was the "right" way to live.
> I sank and sank - never realizing that there was something wrong... It took "this" to realize that there were major issues with the way I conducted myself, who I was, and accepting that there is work to be done.
> I wasn't true to myself - how could be truthful to anyone else. Damn it all.





> If you lose someone, they will keep living their lives without you and you'll just be hurting yourself even more. So stop obsessing over them and obsess over yourself. If you want them to ever want to be with you after leaving you, you'll need to become someone they want to be with. Don't do it just for that purpose, either. Do it for yourself, because you don't need someone who doesn't want you right now..





> I think when you reach that point where you realize it's the idea of her and not necessarily her that you love, that's a turning point. Think, really think, do you love her or do you love the idea of her and what things used to be? That idea you are thinking about, like you said, doesn't have to be with her but it's much easier to imagine it because it might seem just an arm's length away to recapture that. Man I know life would be so much easier for me right now too if that would happen, but is it the right thing and should I dwell on it?
> Remember too when we talked about holding onto hope when you know it's only hurtful in the end? I think now is the time to pull your boot straps up and soldier on with self confidence and NOT running back to her just because you think she's going to change or she throws you a bone. I'm not saying that can't happen eventually but now is not the time in my opinion. When she's able to show a real change, displayed by consistency, then you might want to entertain thoughts of getting back together if you believe that's the right thing to do.


----------



## Faithful123

Dayone this post is so true. Some of these quotes are very true to life and I think the point of understanding that the thought of her as opposed and what you had is hard. Dwelling on those memories is what is hard to break, it's what causes upset and emotion. I wish I knew an easy way to deal with it. My therapist suggests that the only real way to overcome those feelings is to actually feel them fully deep down in your gut. She suggests that if you allow them to come in the next time you have to deal with them they will be that little bit easier. I've done some of this myself and the panic in the middle of the night and early hours has lessened slightly. I usually focus on my breathing and actually noticing it. That way you actually keep breathing and by putting all your focus on it your mind temporarily is distracted from process the other thoughts. Easier said than done, but try it it helps. It's interesting what you say about work, I've found myself doing similar things in my work environment. People notice me and see me as happy and nice to interact with. I guess in some way it's a testament to your ability to work through your issues. One other thing my therapist said is to engage strangers, say hello to people, smile at passers by, say have a nice day to service people. It's a little thing but it's important, it's kindness and it will make you feel good. You'll be surprised how good it is, do it when you least feel like it. Work can be tough, do many people know what you're going through? If so how have you been reacting and answering them. I'm interested as my work is starting to hear things about my situation. Ohh also for what it's worth my therapist said that any emotions you feel, should actually be felt, crying with family like you describe is a release and extremely normal and I bet you definitely felt better after it. I cry a bit myself at times but it is getting less and less. Keep on your oath you are doing really well, and yes the ups and downs will be there, we have no choice but to ride the rollercoaster, because the alternatives are not an option. Understanding what is causing your feelings is part of processing them. For me I'm panicked about my financial position. I'm processing today an equitable split of assets with my wife as that is what she wants at this point, I see that as major trigger to panic, but actually processing it writing it down even if it's bad helps you know where you stand. Having said all that, lean on whoever you can when you need to, your sister loves and cares for you and if you're having a tough day reach out. I've been through one divorce and if I managed to come out the other end I know that anyone including you will be ok whatever happens. Take care of yourself and sometimes allow your mind to rest, get plenty of sleep, that seems to help 2, even if you use nytol to help you. Do what you need to do to get to the next point/step, because there actually is and end to this and that end doesn't have to be negative. Waffle over for now but I will be back.


----------



## DayOne

I did text her last night. "I'm going to the gym at 7pm. If you don't have plans, i'd like to see you there". She replied back that she's "in her first counselling session". That she'd "let me know afterwards how she feeling". "Thanks for inviting me".

Now, if you haven't read my thread, the gym is kind of a big deal. I walk, hike. A lot. But would get pissed when she didn't come with. So when she asked me to join the gym with her, i turned her down flat. In anger.

Dumb. When we talked it out, after D-Day, she explained that i walk faster than her, and never slowed down for her when she did come walking. So she would be left behind, alone, as i went off ahead. See my description of she felt in the relationship, above. Sound familiar?... #Facepalm

So, post D-Day, i signed up (she even forwarded me a coupon that cuts out the joining fee) and we had discussed being gym buddies. Not Mr and Mrs Gym buddies, just buddies. For now. It's a start.

Edit: though, having said that, i had a slight concern that if she did join me that evening, she'll be just out after counselling. So i may have had a dumb bell dropped on my head...

However, the gym meet didn't happen. 

Wife (after her 1st counselling session): "Hi, I am not going to the gym. I have lots to think about. See you soon."

DO: "No Worries. I can relate! Took me three days to get my head back together after the first visit! Some other time then."

Wife: "Absolutely. Hope you have a good work out."

***************************************************

She called my cell this morning. I missed it.
I called her cell back, she missed it. 

(modern 'communications', a wonderful thing.. )

She texted me "Thanks for calling back. Needed some help this morning, wondered if you were still home 
*(neighbour of hers needed help with something. Not sure why she thought i could help, but nice to think she thought i was still an option)* 
Hope you had a good workout"

DO "Sorry i missed you (I like hearing your voice) Workout went great, but my arms are feeling it today".

Simple, short. Connection.


----------



## firefairy

Hey OneDay - you are sooo right!! In reading some of your post, I feel like I am reading some of my own life in reverse. 

If I am anything like your wife, I can tell you that you are on the right path to reconciliation, if that is what you are seeking. Knowing that you are working on your issues, trying to change for the better, opening up your mind to the stubborn lil things that you did (like the gym.. I have a very similar story about that and my husband being to stubborn to work-out with because I didn't want to when he asked years ago) is very good progress! 

I wishing you the best, no matter where you path leads you!! As long as you continue on a path to better yourself then there is no wrong path.. one will lead you exactly where you need to be!!

I hope to follow your thread and watch you grow!


----------



## Faithful123

So true firefairy, I read those quotes to my brother and in essence he said it was like it had written for me. I'm pretty much in the throws now of the early stages of property settlement, but threads like this and forums like this give you some like minded people going through similar struggles. Keep up the great work dayone.


----------



## DayOne

OK, last night: (warning, wall o' text! But a lot to cover)

Went to the gym together, as arranged earlier. We kept the conversation light, small talk. I explained that i wouldn't be doing my full workout this evening as i had been last night, was going tomorrow night, and had been running today. I explained that going tonight, with her, was important to me.

Went with her usual routine, which is stationary bike, followed by Cross Trainer. I was happy to share it with her, to connect with what she does.

More small talk. Just two friends chatting away at the gym. 15 mins or so on the bikes. Though of course i jumped in, to set up her seat to the right height, etc. But she quickly asked me to back off. "You set your bike up, and i'll do mine". Boundaries, She set them, felt she was able to set them, have it respected, and appreciated my respecting them. (even though then she couldn't figure out how to raise the seat, so i had to do it anyway!)

Then onto the Cross Trainers. On the way to the Cross Trainers, she commented that i was really looking good. That the physical work i've been doing is paying off. I acknowledged that, and complemented her on her weight loss too.

More small talk while on the machines, but then we talked about us. I told her about all the other work i've been doing, and the realizations it had helped me achieve. The changes i'm implementing, the commitments i'm making*, the work that i've done. 

*for instance, i told her that i had recognized that I had been using avoidance techniques while at my IC, so as NOT deal with the place the therapist was trying to get me to go. So before attending this weeks session, I made a commitment to myself NOT to use any avoidance. Not to run from where she was guiding me, but to allow myself to go there. 

She replied that she can really see it, that she admires the work i'm doing. That she knows that i have a good heart and she is glad i'm revealing it.

I told her about something that had happened in therapy. A memory of when i was a child. We lived on a farm, and i used to tag along with my Dad when he walked from the house across the fields to the farm. But he used to stride ahead, faster than i could walk, and leave me behind. And although i didn't know it at that age, I felt abandoned.

And that is what i used to do with her, when we out walking, stride ahead, faster than she could walk, leaving her behind. Abandoned. 

And seeing that memory of my childhood, being left behind, against her memory of me, leaving her behind, made me realize what i had done. To appreciate the pain i had caused her. 

She talked about her session last night. That she had spoken to her counsellor of her sadness. Of feeling left behind, abandoned. No matter how she tried, she was never able to get close to me. Because i would always move away. Emotionally, physically. 

To the point where she felt like she had nothing left. That she was nothing, invisible, worthless. 

I told her that she wasn't to blame. That she had done nothing wrong, but try to love a man who could not accept love. Who was not able to be open. That it was me. That i had rejected her. Not because of who she was, but because of who i was. 

I choked up. Right there, in the gym, on the cross trainer. (fortunately they were facing the far wall)

She told me "Hey, its ok. There's no need to cry"

I replied, "No, it's not. And yes there is. I've realised that if i have feeling, emotions, I have to let them out. If i choke them back, suppress them, They get buried. And that's what i've done all my life, suppress my feelings. But they don't stay buried, they just turn toxic, eating me up, causing anger from the frustration of being bottled up. And my anger leads to me hurting those around me, those who want to love me. And that's what i've done to you. I've hurt you for simply trying to love me, for trying to get close to me. I've made you feel the way you do. And that hurts me. This, what you are seeing, is my pain, being released. And it has to be released if i'm to move forward".

Cross training done. Time to 'cool down', literally and emotionally.


----------



## DayOne

She hasn't yet had a PT set her up with a plan, so she invited me to show her the machines i use in my workout. And we took turns on them, just letting her see how they work. She complimented me again how i'm changing physically. I told her that even my belly is changing. No 'abs' yet, but a hint of definition. Gave her a quick flash under my shirt so she could see, she laughed at that.

I'd taken a water bottle, she hadn't, so we'd been sharing mine. At one point she asked me if she could have a drink. I told her she didn't have to ask. She replied back that she felt she wanted to. I struggled a bit with it, but realised she was setting a boundary. To acknowledge and respect each other's property (even if it was just a water bottle), as we would each others space. I accepted that. 

While i used the machines, she offered to hold the water bottle and towel. Not a big deal to most. But for me, in the past, accepting even the smallest help was an issue. I probably would have refused her offer. I consciously over-rode that thinking and accepted the gesture, and expressed thanks.

Workout done, so we headed back home. Chit chatting along the way. Not forced, natural. Friends. 

She talked more about her counselling, but made a flippant comment, just kinda blowing off her recalling of the session ("Blah blah blah". Exactly what i had been doing with Sara!). I asked her why she had done that. She said it was because she felt her feelings, and what happened in therapy were of no interest to others. I stopped her (talking and walking), looked her in the face, and said "Listen. What you have to say IS important. You have feelings, they are important. You're not invisible. Don't feel like I'm not interested. Not any more".

Stopped off at the store as i needed some stuff. In the store, i mentioned that i still had the Restaurant gift card from last xmas. She said that was my gift. I told her i wanted to share it with her. She agreed. 

After that, on the way home I expressed my concern with her being out alone at night. After the drunk guy incident, the recent assault on a woman on a nearby street and the reputation of a nearby footpath, I was concerned for her safety. She said she would be careful, and only walk alone when needed, and to carry her phone with her. I appreciated her own ability to take care of herself, that my issue came from the fear that I was no longer there to protect her. 

Then she asked me about the inconsistency in our closeness in previous meetings. "Sometimes you hug and kiss me and sometimes you don't. It's confusing". I replied that i'm having a hard time trying to get it 'right'. That i am afraid of getting too close, too 'intimate', and I pull away. 

She asked that we hug more often, but not always have to kiss, or expect to kiss, every time. She said she wanted to hold off on that level of intimacy, to save it until we started to date *(wait... wut!?!?!)*. I told her i respected her boundary and would accept it. Of course i then ruined it by kissing her (I'M TRYING!), but then said "now it's your turn" and we hugged, hard, for a long time.


----------



## Faithful123

Dayone I'm so happy to have read this, you're a champion. Made me smile from ear to ear. You work is paying and you're becoming more visible to your wife. Stay focussed on yourself and don't lose sight. Keep going my friend you're well on the way.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

That made me giddy. So fun to watch this unfold. Y'all are doing great!!


----------



## farsidejunky

Awesome!


----------



## Regretf

Amazing DayOne, patience and consistence is paying its dues. Keep it up.


----------



## DayOne

Something must have clicked as there was a flurry of email communications between us today. On two separate email addresses (work and personal)! Just chatty and friendly, but also honest and open. Something that hadn't happened in a long time. 
It felt really good to be able to reconnect, as friends, again.


----------



## just got it 55

DayOne said:


> She hasn't yet had a PT set her up with a plan, so she invited me to show her the machines i use in my workout. And we took turns on them, just letting her see how they work. She complimented me again how i'm changing physically. I told her that even my belly is changing. No 'abs' yet, but a hint of definition. Gave her a quick flash under my shirt so she could see, she laughed at that.
> 
> I'd taken a water bottle, she hadn't, so we'd been sharing mine. At one point she asked me if she could have a drink. I told her she didn't have to ask. She replied back that she felt she wanted to. I struggled a bit with it, but realised she was setting a boundary. To acknowledge and respect each other's property (even if it was just a water bottle), as we would each others space. I accepted that.
> 
> While i used the machines, she offered to hold the water bottle and towel. Not a big deal to most. But for me, in the past, accepting even the smallest help was an issue. I probably would have refused her offer. I consciously over-rode that thinking and accepted the gesture, and expressed thanks.
> 
> Workout done, so we headed back home. Chit chatting along the way. Not forced, natural. Friends.
> 
> She talked more about her counselling, but made a flippant comment, just kinda blowing off her recalling of the session ("Blah blah blah". Exactly what i had been doing with Sara!). I asked her why she had done that. She said it was because she felt her feelings, and what happened in therapy were of no interest to others. I stopped her (talking and walking), looked her in the face, and said "Listen. What you have to say IS important. You have feelings, they are important. You're not invisible. Don't feel like I'm not interested. Not any more".
> 
> Stopped off at the store as i needed some stuff. In the store, i mentioned that i still had the Restaurant gift card from last xmas. She said that was my gift. I told her i wanted to share it with her. She agreed.
> 
> After that, on the way home I expressed my concern with her being out alone at night. After the drunk guy incident, the recent assault on a woman on a nearby street and the reputation of a nearby footpath, I was concerned for her safety. She said she would be careful, and only walk alone when needed, and to carry her phone with her. I appreciated her own ability to take care of herself, that my issue came from the fear that I was no longer there to protect her.
> 
> Then she asked me about the inconsistency in our closeness in previous meetings. "Sometimes you hug and kiss me and sometimes you don't. It's confusing". I replied that i'm having a hard time trying to get it 'right'. That i am afraid of getting too close, too 'intimate', and I pull away.
> 
> She asked that we hug more often, but not always have to kiss, or expect to kiss, every time. She said she wanted to hold off on that level of intimacy, to save it until we started to date *(wait... wut!?!?!)*. I told her i respected her boundary and would accept it. Of course i then ruined it by kissing her (I'M TRYING!), but then said "now it's your turn" and we hugged, hard, for a long time.


DO next you will be writing Hallmark Cards

well done Keep this slow consistent pace forward

55


----------



## thumbper

DO
Great progress, continue focus on your self improvement and the relationship will follow. 

Quoted from a post above: * I usually focus on my breathing and actually noticing it. That way you actually keep breathing and by putting all your focus on it your mind temporarily is distracted from process the other thoughts. Easier said than done, but try it it helps.*

This is a form of meditation and can be very helpful when trying surpress out-of-control feelings and catastrophic thoughts. Focus on a single thought, breathing, or slowly repeat a single word over and over to bring your mind back to center. Try to lengthen the time of single focus in future sessions.

Keep up the good work.


----------



## DayOne

thumbper said:


> DO
> Great progress, continue focus on your self improvement and the relationship will follow.
> 
> Quoted from a post above: * I usually focus on my breathing and actually noticing it. That way you actually keep breathing and by putting all your focus on it your mind temporarily is distracted from process the other thoughts. Easier said than done, but try it it helps.*
> 
> This is a form of meditation and can be very helpful when trying suppress out-of-control feelings and catastrophic thoughts. Focus on a single thought, breathing, or slowly repeat a single word over and over to bring your mind back to center. Try to lengthen the time of single focus in future sessions.
> 
> Keep up the good work.


Thank you for the words of support. One of the things i carried on from when i did yoga, is "Shavasana". Which i use, especially on the nights where i can't sleep because my brain is on overrun. But i also use the breathing and relaxation technique of Shavasana to help me relax during the day. I find it really helps.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Lol, I have a mindset called state of void. First I acknowledge my emotions and own them. Then I cut those distractions away, and concentrate on the things I can change, mostly me. I set plans in motions with that goal in mind. When we are angry, happy, our outlook changes. Neutrality expectations don't seem too high, and also things are not dire as it seems. I then focus on one issue and knock them out. If something seems daunting, I knock out the little problems that will help me deal with the big ones.


----------



## DayOne

Struggling this evening. Movers are coming to pick up the closets in the morning, to take them to her apt. So I'm taking them apart and out to the garage as they're too big for the stairs, whole.

I'm not enjoying this.


----------



## farsidejunky

Man, I am sorry brother. Focus on your breathing but remember this pain. Let it be the motivation that fuels you to never be "that guy" again. 

No matter what happens, you will be okay.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Man, I am sorry brother. Focus on your breathing but remember this pain. Let it be the motivation that fuels you to never be "that guy" again.
> 
> No matter what happens, you will be okay.


Eventually, Far. Eventually.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



DayOne said:


> Eventually, Far. Eventually.


Delusional. Closer to it than you ever thought. Now knock that sh!t off and look at the half - full part of the glass.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Delusional. Closer to it than you ever thought. Now knock that sh!t off and look at the half - full part of the glass.


Times like this, it's not easy. Especially after the week we've had.

Of course, i want her to call me later tomorrow, asking for help. A 20 piece flatpack closet with no instructions will be a b*tch! But, she doesn't want me in her 'space', so...


----------



## just got it 55

DayOne said:


> Eventually, Far. Eventually.


Quoted by an unknown poster but I thought it applied here DO


"I wishing you the best, no matter where you path leads you. As long as you continue on a path to better yourself then there is no wrong path one will lead you exactly where you need to be!!"


55


----------



## Mr.Fisty

I am going to take a guess, psychology at work here. With your wife , you have created a construct of a single identity. You have invested so much time and energy into that construct of oneness with your wife. You suffer from separation anxiety, because that relationship made you, you. Feeling its loss is causing you pain. You feel the only way for you to fix it is to have that person back.

As of right now, you seem rudderless, because of the shock of loss. Your over the place, and have a hard time finding focus. Now your in the process of rediscovering yourself. As you let go of pieces of things here and there, it is ripping away at the wounds. 

With the help by a therapist, you are learning to detach. Acknowledge your mistakes. Accept the faults in you. You are slowly changing your mindset, and creating a new you. But it is a hard process, because habits are hard to break. Your more concious of the things you do and say. But you are changing. 

The valuable lessons you are learning is communication, self awareness, and independence. Always keeping a certain level of detachment helps us see the picture, instead of focusing on the small details.


----------



## DayOne

All true, Fisty.

I was moving forward, and doing really well. But this, a repeat of Day One, after the week we've had together, has knocked me off balance. I'll be out tomorrow when they come, as i was on day one. Just won't be able to deal with it. 


I'll be ok. I'll get back up on top. But for right now, i'm allowing myself to feel the loss. Because, if i don't feel what i need to feel, i'll suppress it. And suppressed feelings, for me, mutate into anger. Which takes me a lot longer to dissipate.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

You should express them for sure.

Reason why I joined this site, is people giving bad advice sometimes. 

They let their emotions get in the way of that advice.

I want people to be self aware, then take control of their own life.

Sometimes people can't figure out why they are thinking the way they do. 

Clarity is the best thing people should offer. 

People on this site have a hard time viewing things through eyes of neutrality.

Sometimes they see themselves in the posters, and get too attach.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

augh... Mr. Fisty.. I don't like you. 

quit steppin on my toes... lol

ETA: j/k about not liking you...

Just feeling the pangs of some of your advice... stop it. lol


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mr.Fisty said:


> I am going to take a guess, psychology at work here. With your wife , you have created a construct of a single identity. You have invested so much time and energy into that construct of oneness with your wife. You suffer from separation anxiety, because that relationship made you, you. Feeling its loss is causing you pain. You feel the only way for you to fix it is to have that person back.
> 
> As of right now, you seem rudderless, because of the shock of loss. Your over the place, and have a hard time finding focus. Now your in the process of rediscovering yourself. As you let go of pieces of things here and there, it is ripping away at the wounds.
> 
> With the help by a therapist, you are learning to detach. Acknowledge your mistakes. Accept the faults in you. You are slowly changing your mindset, and creating a new you. But it is a hard process, because habits are hard to break. Your more concious of the things you do and say. But you are changing.
> 
> The valuable lessons you are learning is communication, self awareness, and independence. Always keeping a certain level of detachment helps us see the picture, instead of focusing on the small details.


This is the one that got me... :whip:

I'm already pretty far down this path, but I can tell by my reaction to this post today that I've got work to do .... dang it... oh well... its just who I am.. life student. Always will be. /tj


----------



## Faithful123

Will be tough Day one, I feel your pain. Remember that distraction is good in these difficult times, make sure you keep busy when this happens. My therapist always tells me to allow those emotions in, feel sad, feel humiliated, feel the anxiety it's healthy to feel it. Doesn't mean it's easy in fact it's the exact opposite it's bloody hard. Remember there are a huge amount of positives in your life and there will be more. Don't paint a picture that makes this worse than it is. Make sure through this process you are staying active and more importantly you get plenty of sleep, it will help. It will be alright, and this too will pass.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks guys. As I said, I'll get over it, but tonight sux.


----------



## 2xloser

Hey man,

Maybe helps to look at it this way: by her figuring out how to assemble this damn thing herself, making the mistakes, feeling the frustration of it, SHE will do some growing that you also need to happen. And by not 'solving it', you're demonstrating something important to both of you, regardless of net outcome.

No pain, no gain.

Hang in there. At the end of the day, it's closets... let it be just closets.


----------



## DayOne

ALRIGHT! A new day, a new attitude! :smthumbup:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DayOne said:


> ALRIGHT! A new day, a new attitude! :smthumbup:


YAY!!! :smthumbup:


----------



## DayOne

Spent most of the day cutting and splitting firewood. Very 'alpha', very energetic, and a good distraction. (chainsaw and axes do require your complete and undivided attention....)

Got a text saying waw hasn't found anyone to help her move the closets, resisted the desire to offer to take them over there. Learning to step back. It's her life now.

However... There's nothing to stop me indirectly helping. So marked up all the pieces on the closet ("A,B,C, etc) so it's easy to re-assemble, without instructions. Bagged up all the screws and chucked in the right size allen key. 

waw also asked if i want to go to the gym tomorrow. So i told her i would meet her at the usual meeting spot and to "get ready to get sweaty!"


So.. last nights attitude shrugged off, decision NOT to be a d!ck made, path to enlightenment regained.


----------



## Anon Pink

It's always good to decide to not be a d!ck.


----------



## DayOne

It's a new thing, for me. But i'm getting used to it.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

You should see what I do for fun. I threw a tea party, and watched football at the same time. I made people dress up in suits. I serve up biscuits, scones, finger sandwiches, a cheese platter with sausages and crackers. Funny thing people had a blast, and it was more fun than people realize. 

I like doing things outside the norm, it makes life interesting. 

Good job on being cordial, and not droppping your entire life and going to her whenever she wants. 

Yet, sometimes I act my age and we had a chair jumping contest. Wasn't the brightest idea.


----------



## Faithful123

Mr Fisty you make me laugh, your insight is well.....insightful haha, it's helped me immeasurably. Keep your posts going, they are great.


----------



## DayOne

*Re: Re: Day One...*



Mr.Fisty said:


> Good job on being cordial, and not droppping your entire life and going to her whenever she wants.


If you mean the closet thing, that's more to do with accepting that we now live separate lives. Something I've struggled with. But the concept is getting easier, the longer we're apart, and the more I'm able to focus on me. 

We're doing OK, right now, just working on being friends. As I mentioned above, we're going back to the gym together today for another workout. Baby steps.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Faithful123 said:


> Mr Fisty you make me laugh, your insight is well.....insightful haha, it's helped me immeasurably. Keep your posts going, they are great.


Oh, in person I am completely different. Serious matters, my serious side comes out. 

Other than that, I am pretty much laid back.

Like, I joked with my feminist friend. 

I told her she like her men, like she likes her eggs, beaten.

Luckily she knows me well enough.


----------



## DayOne

A good morning. 

OK, a great morning! Back to the gym. For a 2.5 hour workout! It would appear that we distract each other. To the point where we forget how long we've been cycling, cross training and rowing for. To busy talking, not enough watching the timers (It's not a bad thing. ). Did all the other exercises on 'my' routine, together as well. 

I told her i feel that i'm too often talking about me, and would like to hear more about her. But she said that she likes it that i'm talking about me, that it's something she's enjoying, because it's never happened before. At least, not as much as this.

She did suggest that i write about my feelings more in the 'minutes', not just the facts. 

Left the gym. Walked back via the High Street ("Main Street" to some of you), and she commented on how empty of shoppers it was for 11:30. So i suggested we find out if the coffee shop was also empty.. (spontaneity, 'taking charge')

Took her hand on the way up to the coffee shop, asked if she was comfortable with that, she said she'd missed it. That she misses me. 

Coffee was good. More talking, more progress. She mentioned that her hope was that, eventually, youngest son and his fiance will take over the apt. Which, of course means that she has a desire on moving back to our house, and was expressing that idea to me. Perhaps before the 12 months is up.

She wants the Sunday morning workout to become a regular thing. In part as it gets her up and moving on the days when she doesn't WANT to get up and move. And she floated a couple of other 'opportunities' for us to spent time together. 

Basically, she likes the guy that she's seeing, spending time with, misses him, and wants to find time to do it more often. 

Walked back to her street. I advanced from holding her hand, to my arm around her waist, and pulling her in close. She put her arm around me and responded in kind. 

Got to her street and I said I may have a solution to her problem moving the closets. Perhaps she organize a 'Ikea and pizza' day. Get some of her friends over and help her carry up and rebuild the closets, I'll just drive them over and park outside. 

She told me that the transportation issue was on her. Not being able to drive, because she'd never gotten her UK license, was her responsibility and she had to work around that failure. And that she didn't want to have to feel that she was always asking me for help, or expecting me to be there to help.

I countered that I don't mind doing this, but if it was going to make her feel like she was relying on me, that once it was done (transporting the closets), we take a break, time out, for a month. 

She told me that she didn't want to, couldn't, be apart from me for a month. (actually, it was along the lines of "HE11, NO!")

So i gave a her a good long hug, but she pulled me in for a longer kiss. 

DO "I thought you said no kissing?"

waw: "yeah, well, I guess we can forget about that!"


----------



## 2xloser

Obviously that's terrific; "congratulations" 
Things definitely look to be going exactly where you want them to. Superb.

Not being a downer, but a thought: my concern is her liking this "dating but living apart" scene way more than "living together and being fully committed" (bad memories and all that, vs. current blissful view)

How or if you find a way to keep that carrot dangling is an interesting question to ponder. If you even want it.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

You go boyfriend! 

Operation makeover is going well for you it seems. 

I am guessing that a stronger you, is a more attractive you to her. Slowly she is placing trust back into you.

Do you read your past posts to see how far you have come?

Not sure if this is your case, but a mentally stronger you, allows her to put trust in you, because you would be protective of it.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Don't forget to maintain an independent you throughout your life. 

You have to have the mindset that you always will be okay. 

Cherish the now, but don't assume it will last forever, and make it worth while.


----------



## jld

Mr.Fisty said:


> Like, I joked with my feminist friend.
> 
> I told her she like her men, like she likes her eggs, beaten.


----------



## jld

Mr.Fisty said:


> Not sure if this is your case, but a mentally stronger you, allows her to put trust in you, because you would be protective of it.


:iagree: Beautifully said.


----------



## just got it 55

DO just knowing the WAW feel "heard" is the first step R

You clearly have that figured out.

Never stop this.

Well done keep up the progress.

55


----------



## Anon Pink

DayOne said:


> A good morning.
> 
> OK, a great morning! Back to the gym. For a 2.5 hour workout! It would appear that we distract each other. To the point where we forget how long we've been cycling, cross training and rowing for. To busy talking, not enough watching the timers (It's not a bad thing. ). Did all the other exercises on 'my' routine, together as well.
> 
> I told her i feel that i'm too often talking about me, and would like to hear more about her. But she said that she likes it that i'm talking about me, that it's something she's enjoying, because it's never happened before. At least, not as much as this.
> 
> She did suggest that i write about my feelings more in the 'minutes', not just the facts.
> 
> Left the gym. Walked back via the High Street ("Main Street" to some of you), and she commented on how empty of shoppers it was for 11:30. So i suggested we find out if the coffee shop was also empty.. (spontaneity, 'taking charge')
> 
> Took her hand on the way up to the coffee shop, asked if she was comfortable with that, she said she'd missed it. That she misses me.
> 
> Coffee was good. More talking, more progress. She mentioned that her hope was that, eventually, youngest son and his fiance will take over the apt. Which, of course means that she has a desire on moving back to our house, and was expressing that idea to me. Perhaps before the 12 months is up.
> 
> She wants the Sunday morning workout to become a regular thing. In part as it gets her up and moving on the days when she doesn't WANT to get up and move. And she floated a couple of other 'opportunities' for us to spent time together.
> 
> Basically, she likes the guy that she's seeing, spending time with, misses him, and wants to find time to do it more often.
> 
> Walked back to her street. I advanced from holding her hand, to my arm around her waist, and pulling her in close. She put her arm around me and responded in kind.
> 
> Got to her street and I said I may have a solution to her problem moving the closets. Perhaps she organize a 'Ikea and pizza' day. Get some of her friends over and help her carry up and rebuild the closets, I'll just drive them over and park outside.
> 
> She told me that the transportation issue was on her. Not being able to drive, because she'd never gotten her UK license, was her responsibility and she had to work around that failure. And that she didn't want to have to feel that she was always asking me for help, or expecting me to be there to help.
> 
> I countered that I don't mind doing this, but if it was going to make her feel like she was relying on me, that once it was done (transporting the closets), we take a break, time out, for a month.
> 
> She told me that she didn't want to, couldn't, be apart from me for a month. (actually, it was along the lines of "HE11, NO!")
> 
> So i gave a her a good long hug, but she pulled me in for a longer kiss.
> 
> DO "I thought you said no kissing?"
> 
> waw: "yeah, well, I guess we can forget about that!"



:::::::Long emotional girlish sigh:::::

Think I'll get my own apartment too!


----------



## DayOne

2xloser said:


> Not being a downer, but a thought: my concern is her liking this "dating but living apart" scene way more than "living together and being fully committed" (bad memories and all that, vs. current blissful view)


Appreciate the... concern? But, at least from my perspective, rather than having a "look, but don't touch mentality", she seems to be wanting to get closer. Emotionally, and well as physically. She is letting her guard down, as she sees me change. The boundaries that are set, while important, are in a constant state of flux, as we continue to dynamically adjust into this new relationship. For instance, the 'no kissing' boundary she set, then walked right through to kiss me. Because she wanted to, she needed to. 

BUT... the important part is that we are able to set boundaries. This is new. We didn't have any in place before, so there was confusion, a not knowing of where we stood, what we could and couldn't do before. Now we know we can, and the other person will respect that boundary. That's big.

The mention of the 'kids' taking over the apartment had a strong vibe of "I want to come back, but there's still work we both need to do", which i picked up on and we discussed. I did reiterate that even if she showed up with her bags tomorrow, i'd say no. And she is of the same mindset.

As well as continuing to work on and develop myself (as she also appears to be doing), I'm taking this 'next level' as a chance to do what we didn't do at the beginning of our first relationship. And that is to get to know each other. As 'strangers' initially, as we're both starting from new, then dating, then eventually agreeing to move in together. But along the way, to learn about each other, as well as our selves, to learn how to deal with conflict without using any of the methods we employed in the past. At least as much as possible, there will be triggers, obviously. Holdovers from a previous life.

I mentioned to her today about the "Five worse enemies of intimate conversation" from His Needs, Her Needs. And that we used each and EVERY single one of these enemies in our fights. Which is, often they they WERE fights. Over nothing. Stupid stuff. But we were coming from such different places that we didn't learn to handle clashes better.


One of the 'opportunities' i mentioned above is that my brother and his family are coming down to visit Mum next weekend. She wanted to go with me to see them. Together. As... partners? A couple? But together. United. A public show of us together, in front of our family. But for appearances sake, but to 'announce (?)' that we are still together. If you prefer, "not yet living together, but being fully committed". And that came from her.


----------



## DayOne

Mr.Fisty said:


> You go boyfriend!
> 
> Operation makeover is going well for you it seems.
> 
> I am guessing that a stronger you, is a more attractive you to her. Slowly she is placing trust back into you.
> 
> *This seems to be the case. Equally it could be said that her seeing me getting in touch with my feelings is making me more attractive to her.*
> 
> Do you read your past posts to see how far you have come?
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure if this is your case, but a mentally stronger you, allows her to put trust in you, because you would be protective of it.
> 
> I'm learning how i have not protected her in the past, emotionally, and how to not make those mistakes again. How i have hurt her, and not to repeat it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

2xloser said:


> Obviously that's terrific; "congratulations"
> Things definitely look to be going exactly where you want them to. Superb.
> 
> Not being a downer, but a thought: my concern is her liking this "dating but living apart" scene way more than "living together and being fully committed" (bad memories and all that, vs. current blissful view)
> 
> How or if you find a way to keep that carrot dangling is an interesting question to ponder. If you even want it.


Great question and this is what mt H and I do... Approach and retreat

The person who is away from the marital home approaches in that comfort, spends the night, goes away when space is needed and reapproaches when wanted. My H is free to come and go as he pleases and I am free to ask for space as needed. I think strategic separation is smart as long as it is designed to protect progress and build it further and not other nefarious activities. What I find is one night, or date turns into longer time naturally


----------



## DayOne

Anon Pink said:


> :::::::Long emotional girlish sigh:::::
> 
> Think I'll get my own apartment too!


You likey? 

I didn't get to throw out the 'closet, clothes, Woman' line this time around. But it's definitely one of the trump card's i'm holding! 

But i did use the 'walk behind' idea as we went to the gym. 

She noticed and asked what i was doing. I replied that i wanted to see what it was like to follow her from behind for a change (and that i was enjoying the view!).

She said she wanted me by her side instead.


----------



## Anon Pink

Yeah, we're not supposed to like that sh!t. So we pretend to be annoyed when secretly we LOVE it! Don't tell anyone or they'll take away my feminist card.


----------



## DayOne

Anon Pink said:


> Yeah, we're not supposed to like that sh!t. So we pretend to be annoyed when secretly we LOVE it! Don't tell anyone or they'll take away my feminist card.


I won't tell a soul, hun. Honest. Your secret is safe with me.


----------



## jld

DayOne, you are the poster child for re-earning a wife's trust! 

I am always telling men to earn their wife's trust if they want emotional intimacy in marriage. And often my advice is spurned, because they are convinced that the lack of intimacy is due to some insurmountable organic obstacle in the wife. It cannot possibly be anything to do with them!

You, with your willingness to fearlessly confront your shortcomings, are proving that just focusing on yourself can yield great rewards. To be sure, your wife is working on herself, too. But I can tell you, I can think of many women who would love to have a husband who worked as hard on himself as you have!


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> DayOne, you are the poster child for re-earning a wife's trust!
> 
> I am always telling men to earn their wife's trust if they want emotional intimacy in marriage. And often my advice is spurned, because they are convinced that the lack of intimacy is due to some insurmountable organic obstacle in the wife. It cannot possibly be anything to do with them!
> 
> You, with your willingness to fearlessly confront your shortcomings, are proving that just focusing on yourself can yield great rewards. To be sure, your wife is working on herself, too. But I can tell you, I can think of many women who would love to have a husband who worked as hard on himself as you have!


----------



## jld

So modest, too!


----------



## DayOne

Couple of other thing's from today.

I mentioned to her that last night i couldn't get to sleep because. as usual, when i lie down my brain spools up. Last night i got it into my head that she was going to tell me today that she was seeing someone else. (and you thought it was just Women that were irrational!)

Scenario's bounced around in my head for over an hour.

Until i decided it to turn it around. Instead of imagining her telling me she was cheating, I imagined far better scenarios. 

Like us getting rain soaked on the way back from the gym, and coming here to take hot showers and dry off. And by dry off, i mean me toweling her dry....

Or asking her to show me her new yoga move's. 'Downward dog' and 'cat and cow' are my personal faves, along with 'happy baby'. Though of course, it's much easier to check her posture if she's nekkid... 

Anywho... it worked. I purged the negative, loaded up the positive, and got to sleep.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And she managed to smack herself in the head with one of the gym machines. So i showed her how to use it properly, stood close (touching) behind her to spot her, and then tenderly kissed the 'booboo' on her head.


----------



## jld

Good for you for taking control of your thoughts. I struggle with that. My thinking often runs to worst case scenario.


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> Good for you for taking control of your thoughts. I struggle with that. My thinking often runs to worst case scenario.


Same here. So i force myself to re-program. If i wanted to stick with worst case scenario, i'd go read the CWI threads! Always a good place to F with your head in there.


Edit: and i have to print your sig and put it up in my kitchen gallery.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Anon Pink said:


> Yeah, we're not supposed to like that sh!t. So we pretend to be annoyed when secretly we LOVE it! Don't tell anyone or they'll take away my feminist card.



Your secret is safe with us and anyone who views this thread.


----------



## jld

Mr.Fisty said:


> Your secret is safe with us and anyone who views this thread.


----------



## jld

DayOne said:


> Same here. So i force myself to re-program. If i wanted to stick with worst case scenario, i'd go read the CWI threads! Always a good place to F with your head in there.
> 
> 
> Edit: and i have to print your sig and put it up in my kitchen gallery.


I hear you on CWI. 

WOTSM is a great book, D1. I think you would enjoy it very much.


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> WOTSM is a great book, D1. I think you would enjoy it very much.


Getting it now. Thanks!


----------



## DayOne

Out again this evening. Spontaneous trip into London to see the Tower Poppies. 

Her idea, but she wasn't sure when we should go. So i said "screw it! Lets go now!"(7:45pm) And we did. Great evening, just hanging out, seeing the memorial and the Tower. I kept the crowds away from her (she doesn't like crowds), and kept her on the non traffic side of the sidewalk at all times. She wanted to hold my hand all evening, we cuddled up on the train back and she slept with her head on my shoulder. 

Highlight was our oldest boy seeing us walking home, arm in arm.

Updated my FB status to "it's complicated" (as there isn't a "separated... but smooching" option. and yes, there was smooching), she commented "Agreed".


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Good job on being assertive. You took charge. 

I plan on quitting this site by dec. 

I just came to help with advice, and my goal was to bring clarity . 

I use the detach and analyze method. 

Posters on this site see themselves in too many situation. Good advice is bringing clarity and letting people pick what path they choose to travel. 

I have seen some posters angry with choices ops take. 

Hopefully being on here brought understanding.

Remember self growth never ends.

What is that saying, a fool is a man who believes himself wise.


----------



## DayOne

Also started listening to 'Homecoming' by John Bradshaw (audio book) today, as part of my personal growth. Making a lot of sense.


----------



## DayOne

We're going to have a chat about boundaries. She showed up, unannounced, this morning at my back door to talk about an ongoing family drama back in the US.


Asked her in and heard her out, gave advice. 

It felt great that she was able to come to me, and know that i'd be there for her.... But, i'm going to have to remind her that we had agreed to respect each others space, and to ask before entering it. She blew right through it this morning. And that's not cool.


----------



## farsidejunky

It didn't take her long to get comfortable.

ETA: Be gentle.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Good job on recognizing it. Boundaries are needed so people don't take advantage of us.

Is she still in counseling?


----------



## DayOne

Mr.Fisty said:


> Good job on recognizing it. Boundaries are needed so people don't take advantage of us.
> 
> Is she still in counseling?


Won't be pounding her about it. 1st offence. Just a reminder. 

Her 2nd session is tomorrow.

I've got 2 weeks off as mine is on vacation.


NOT stress related i hasten to add.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> It didn't take her long to get comfortable.
> 
> ETA: Be gentle.


I am putting it down to us progressing so rapidly. 

And i will.



We are also going to talk about last night. The goodbye kiss got.... hot n heavy. Kinda freaked us out. When she came by this morning she vocalized this, and asked that we not let it get that far again, for now. 

I'm going to let her know that while i agree with her, not to consider it a 'mistake'. Not to impart any negativity to it. We were in the moment, enjoyed it, and gave us a hint of things to come.


----------



## jld

When you mention the boundary, you may want to frame it as, "We have been doing really well with respecting each other's space. I want to give the best of myself to you, and I think the way we have been respecting each other's space has been part of what makes that possible. I don't want to lose that."

At the same time, her comfort with you means you are earning back her trust. That is a compliment to you. 

Just thinking . . . I think that as you get stronger in yourself, formal boundaries may not be as necessary. You will be able to handle more of her needs (this morning for comfort) without its feeling threatening to you.


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> When you mention the boundary, you may want to frame it as, "We have been doing really well with respecting each other's space. I want to give the best of myself to you, and I think the way we have been respecting each other's space has been part of what makes that possible. I don't want to lose that."
> 
> *[email protected], you're good! Loving that! *
> 
> At the same time, her comfort with you means you are earning back her trust. That is a compliment to you.
> 
> *Thank you. Coming from you, as someone whose input i've come to respect, it means a lot. *
> 
> Just thinking . . . I think that as you get stronger in yourself, formal boundaries may not be as necessary. You will be able to handle more of her needs (this morning for comfort) without its feeling threatening to you.
> 
> *Thing is, it wasn't threatening, to me. I did the happy dance (in my head) when she showed up. I did make light of it, relaxed her. I was on the computer, so i made a joke about "You're lucky I wasn't surfing porn!" (Unlikely as i'm on a self imposed moratorium)
> 
> It wasn't till i was 1/2 way to work that i realized. There was a boundary. It can be renegotiated, but it's one that was in place, and was breached. That has to be addressed.*


----------



## farsidejunky

Ok dude. Since you seem to be particularly needy today with all of your PM's, let me throw this one at you.



What is a boundary? Boundaries are put in place in order to protect us from something. What exactly are you protecting yourself from? 

You wanted her to come over. You did the happy dance in your head. Why on earth are you going to go to her and tell her that she shouldn't do that anymore when that's what you wanted? That sounds counterintuitive, especially when the boundary is arbitrary and is not serving any purpose in protecting anything.

If the boundary is in place simply because she expects the same out of you, is it really your boundary? Should it really be enforced?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I think its a desire for a bit of respect.


----------



## farsidejunky

Fair enough. 

My concern was that he expressed nothing of the sort in his update. Sometimes in these situations (I know from experience) you get so desperate to enforce boundaries that you enforce something that should not be a boundary. It really had that feel based on what he posted.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> My concern was that he expressed nothing of the sort in his update. Sometimes in these situations (I know from experience) you get so desperate to enforce boundaries that you enforce something that should not be a boundary. It really had that feel based on what he posted.



True and I agree with healthy self assessment in that way. 

I did the same thing with my H when we were separated. He just barged in one day and I asked him not to do that. That I did prefer that he knock first. Even though I was really happy he was there. And it was definitely rooted in my desire for respect.


----------



## DayOne

Sorry, been out for a lunchtime run #Bragging 



farsidejunky said:


> Ok dude. Since you seem to be particularly needy today with all of your PM's, let me throw this one at you.
> 
> *All my PM's?!?! Think you'll find that's ONE PM, singular! My favourite stalker goes silent, i get concerned! *
> 
> 
> 
> What is a boundary? Boundaries are put in place in order to protect us from something. What exactly are you protecting yourself from?
> 
> You wanted her to come over. You did the happy dance in your head. Why on earth are you going to go to her and tell her that she shouldn't do that anymore when that's what you wanted? That sounds counterintuitive, especially when the boundary is arbitrary and is not serving any purpose in protecting anything.
> 
> If the boundary is in place simply because she expects the same out of you, is it really your boundary? Should it really be enforced?
> 
> *Yes. Yes, and Yes.
> And then potentially thrown out the window.
> 
> Boundaries. We're both new to them. Blossom's right, it's about respect. Mutual respect. In our previous marriage, we had no boundaries, no limits, no margins as to what was acceptable and not acceptable. We had no idea what we could and couldn't do to each other. So we had no respect for one another's limits.
> 
> This time around, we're going to have boundaries. Not fences, not wire, not picket. Just boundaries. Not "YOU MUST NOT DO THIS", but "this is a point where i feel uncomfortable/hurt/threatened. Please do not pass this point".
> 
> The obvious example is waw requesting that we ease up on the kissing as she was uncomfortable with it. Next time we meet i respect her requested limit, her boundary. She sees that I respect her request....and she's all over me like a rash! (I didn't fight her off, much.)
> 
> BECAUSE.SHE.SAW.A.DIFFERENCE. We, made a difference.
> 
> The house boundary is in place. Agreed on. She didn't respect it, intentionally or unintentionally. So it has to be discussed. If she's accepting of her actions, then fine, it gets dropped, or revised.
> 
> If she doesn't and rails against it, while also ignoring her own boundaries (the kissing one), we have an issue. She's not respecting boundaries. That's not acceptable. *


----------



## farsidejunky

Sounds good, brother. I am trying to make sure you are not making the same mistakes I made by vetting you just a bit.

Once again you are on it.

Maybe I exaggerated the PM's just a bit...


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Sounds good, brother. I am trying to make sure you are not making the same mistakes I made by vetting you just a bit.
> 
> Once again you are on it.
> 
> Maybe I exaggerated the PM's just a bit...


 Have some faith, brother. 

Even threw some dominant in there. Instructed her "to be ready by 7pm as i will be picking you up from work. We will talk in the car".


----------



## DayOne

> Blossom Leigh likes this.



Hmmmm, you like a bit of dominant, occasionally?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DayOne said:


> Hmmmm, you like a bit of dominant, occasionally?


Dominance by a very strong very intelligent, passionate man is like crack to me. Its why I was drawn like a moth to a flame to my H. So thus... my boundaries to protect my husband can be fierce when someone like that tries to knock on that door.

I had an even more dominant, more intelligent, stronger man than my H, notice me and knock me off kilter in the past couple of years. Rattled me to the core. I knew if he ever pursued me I would have an extremely hard time resisting him and he did for a while and I struggled. So Blossom's boundaries have been tightened, perspectives sharpened and skills honed since it is a weakness of mine that I am very aware of. 

So to anyone reading this... don't bait me, because I WILL protect my family.


----------



## Anon Pink

Blossom Leigh said:


> *Dominance by a very strong very intelligent, passionate man is like crack to me. * Its why I was drawn like a moth to a flame to my H. So thus... my boundaries to protect my husband can be fierce when someone like that tries to knock on that door.
> 
> I had an even more dominant, more intelligent, stronger man than my H, notice me and knock me off kilter in the past couple of years. Rattled me to the core. I knew if he ever pursued me I would have an extremely hard time resisting him and he did for a while and I struggled. So Blossom's boundaries have been tightened, perspectives sharpened and skills honed since it is a weakness of mine that I am very aware of.
> 
> So to anyone reading this... don't bait me, because I WILL protect my family.


Of course it is! We can't help the erotic response in ourselves.

Blossom, I don't know your story nor the state of your marriage but it sounds like you're discouraged with yourself because you do respond to dominance? Maybe I'm reading that all wrong?

I personally, in real life, run fast and swift from any man who shows dominance. It weakens me and I become vulnerable. But at the same time, I'm attracted to it, fiercely! 

It's best to get that craving fed at home or learn to get that craving fed at home...


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> Dominance by a very strong very intelligent, passionate man is like crack to me. Its why I was drawn like a moth to a flame to my H. So thus... my boundaries to protect my husband can be fierce when someone like that tries to knock on that door.
> 
> I had an even more dominant, more intelligent, stronger man than my H, notice me and knock me off kilter in the past couple of years. Rattled me to the core. I knew if he ever pursued me I would have an extremely hard time resisting him and he did for a while and I struggled. So Blossom's boundaries have been tightened, perspectives sharpened and skills honed since it is a weakness of mine that I am very aware of.
> 
> So to anyone reading this... don't bait me, because I WILL protect my family.


And this, from what i've read in your many posts, has made you become a strong, independent woman. Providing wise, helpful advice to us noobs!  Thank you for that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Anon Pink said:


> Of course it is! We can't help the erotic response in ourselves.
> 
> Blossom, I don't know your story nor the state of your marriage but it sounds like you're discouraged with yourself because you do respond to dominance? Maybe I'm reading that all wrong?
> 
> I personally, in real life, run fast and swift from any man who shows dominance. It weakens me and I become vulnerable. But at the same time, I'm attracted to it, fiercely!
> 
> *It's best to get that craving fed at home or learn to get that craving fed at home...*


Exactly!! 

My marriage is going great  

My H dominates easily... 

Yes dominance is a serious weakness of mine. It doesn't draw me with just anyone, because frankly most of the dominance games are boy wanna be's Its the MEN who ARE dominant (extremely rare) and in a certain way (highly intelligent and intuitive) that I REALLY have to shut down hard to protect myself and my family.

I can tell you know EXACTLY what I mean.

Thanks for the support Girl.

/tj


----------



## Anon Pink

Blossom Leigh said:


> Exactly!!
> 
> My marriage is going great
> 
> My H dominates easily...
> 
> Yes dominance is a serious weakness of mine. It doesn't draw me with just anyone, because frankly most of the dominance games are boy wanna be's Its the MEN who ARE dominant (extremely rare) and in a certain way (highly intelligent and intuitive) that I REALLY have to shut down hard to protect myself and my family.
> 
> I can tell you know EXACTLY what I mean.
> 
> Thanks for the support Girl.
> 
> /tj


I think we should stop using dominance because it's a bit misleading and that's how we get d!ckish moves by wanna bees.

Dominance is to have power and or influence over another, but that can describe a parent to a child or employer to employee. That's direct dominance. A parent directly has power and influence.

Leadership is when that power and influence comes from the leadee, because they wish to have the approval given when they follow. But in order to follow, the leader must simply lead, lead by doing, lead by acting, lead by being.

Take DayOne's wife knocking on his door this morning to seek his counsel on family matters.

What's really going on there? Was she REALLY that affected by her family that she HAD to have his counsel right then? Was she making a statement about what she thinks about his boundaries compared to hers? Was this her way of inviting him to crash her boundaries? No one will know until she is asked to think and answer from the heart and only a leader will be able to illicit a direct heartfelt response. A ****ish move is ignore the potential back stories and hidden agendas and only go for the surface actions. A leader goes for what's really going on, understanding she might not even know herself.


----------



## DayOne

Anon Pink said:


> I think we should stop using dominance because it's a bit misleading and that's how we get d!ckish moves by wanna bees.
> 
> Dominance is to have power and or influence over another, but that can describe a parent to a child or employer to employee. That's direct dominance. A parent directly has power and influence.
> 
> Leadership is when that power and influence comes from the leadee, because they wish to have the approval given when they follow. But in order to follow, the leader must simply lead, lead by doing, lead by acting, lead by being.
> 
> Take DayOne's wife knocking on his door this morning to seek his counsel on family matters.
> 
> What's really going on there? Was she REALLY that affected by her family that she HAD to have his counsel right then? Was she making a statement about what she thinks about his boundaries compared to hers? Was this her way of inviting him to crash her boundaries? No one will know until she is asked to think and answer from the heart and only a leader will be able to illicit a direct heartfelt response. A ****ish move is ignore the potential back stories and hidden agendas and only go for the surface actions. A leader goes for what's really going on, understanding she might not even know herself.
> 
> *I'd like to take this further, and learn more, but i'm out of time for now (gotta hit the road if i'm going to be on time!)*


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Anon Pink said:


> I think we should stop using dominance because it's a bit misleading and that's how we get d!ckish moves by wanna bees.
> 
> A leader goes for what's really going on, understanding she might not even know herself.


Exactly

A compassionate alpha male...


----------



## Anon Pink

I think compassionate is misleading too. It brings to mind too much flexibility, make sense? Compassion and empathy have their place when it comes to leading for sure.

The word I like best is "aware." He is aware there might be something more going on and he is aware he doesn't have the answer. The aware leader seeks the answer before he makes a decision on which direction to lead.

Was his wife just simply not thinking about the rules she herself put in place? Did last night's kiss put her in an emotional state where she returned to her first instinct and that was to seek our her husband to confide in? Cause that's something that may or may not need discussion concerning boundaries.

Was his wife thinking he wouldn't mind her showing up unannounced because he didn't want this separation to begin with? Thinking if he wants me there than it must be okay with him when I just show up. That absolutely needs discussion on boundaries!

Or was she secretly wanting to know if the way she felt last night after the kiss, and this morning remembering it, real, and needed to see him to be able to tell if it was real or not. Was seeing him a way for her to decide if she even Wanted to feel the way she felt?

Lots of meaning to this one simple act of knocking on his door and only one person will know the truth.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

If only all of life issues could be solved with duct tape. 

There should be a special decoder for the female mind.

"oh, you don't have to get me anything."

Means. "you better get me something and you better put some thoughts into it or you are sleeping on the couch."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mr.Fisty said:


> If only all of life issues could be solved with duct tape.
> 
> There should be a special decoder for the female mind.
> 
> "oh, you don't have to get me anything."
> 
> Means. "you better get me something and you better put some thoughts into it or you are sleeping on the couch."


Hey... when you find it. Hand it over to us too because we too would like to know. lol


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Day One, hope tonight goes super well for you and your Honey.


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> Day One, hope tonight goes super well for you and your Honey.


[email protected] 

Picked her up. Resolved the 'last night' making out thing. It had freaked us both out. To be this close, this connected, this soon, terrifies both of us. I told her that when she had said it was too much and we shouldn't do that again, I was concerned she would be seeing what happened as a negative, and i didn't feel it was. That i chosen to accept last night and it's events, as a wonderful night, and enjoy it for what is was.

I asked her about this morning, and why she had just appeared. She wasn't sure what i meant. As it turned out, she'd forgotten the house boundary ("It didn't even cross my mind"). She'd missed the bus and wanted to come over and talk before the next one. 

She showed contrition, accepted she had messed up, that it had been selfish of her, and she would do better. To call first next time. 

We met, discussed what needed to be discussed, resolved without fighting, and with respect and understanding.

Soooo, all good, right? 

HA! NotSoMuch.

She just HAD to give me a Steve Jobs as she got out of the car. "Just one more thing" To reiterate that the lease on her apt was 12 months (10.5 left) and that gave us plenty of time to make sure we were both moved on. So no early release for good behaviour. No moving back until next September. She's choosing to serve the whole term.

While i know and accept that we are still in early days, and there's a long road to go, it was a kick in the guts after everything that's happened. I told her that it really hurt me that she had to finish the evening on that note. That she needed to go home, now. And so would I.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

oes this make my butt look big."

Me.
Starts duct taping my eyes ears and mouth.


----------



## jld

D1, do you feel like her bringing up the lease was a reaction to your bringing up the boundary issue? Or not at all?

Do you think the making out last night is the reason she brought up the lease? She is reminding both of you that the separation is in place? Protecting herself somehow?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DayOne said:


> [email protected]
> 
> Picked her up. Resolved the 'last night' making out thing. It had freaked us both out. To be this close, this connected, this soon, terrifies both of us. I told her that when she had said it was too much and we shouldn't do that again, I was concerned she would be seeing what happened as a negative, and i didn't feel it was. That i chosen to accept last night and it's events, as a wonderful night, and enjoy it for what is was.
> 
> I asked her about this morning, and why she had just appeared. She wasn't sure what i meant. As it turned out, she'd forgotten the house boundary ("It didn't even cross my mind"). She'd missed the bus and wanted to come over and talk before the next one.
> 
> She showed contrition, accepted she had messed up, that it had been selfish of her, and she would do better. To call first next time.
> 
> We met, discussed what needed to be discussed, resolved without fighting, and with respect and understanding.
> 
> Soooo, all good, right?
> 
> HA! NotSoMuch.
> 
> She just HAD to give me a Steve Jobs as she got out of the car. "Just one more thing" To reiterate that the lease on her apt was 12 months (10.5 left) and that gave us plenty of time to make sure we were both moved on. So no early release for good behaviour. No moving back until next September. She's choosing to serve the whole term.
> 
> While i know and accept that we are still in early days, and there's a long road to go, it was a kick in the guts after everything that's happened. I told her that it really hurt me that she had to finish the evening on that note. That she needed to go home, now. And so would I.


Don't put too much stock in that. She may change her mind. Totally a womans M.O.

At the same time... giving it that much time is a great way to guage the health of getting back together or actually moving on. I know it's scary, but a lot of good came out of tonight too.

ETA: But a valuable skill is learning to leave events on a high note. She should have saved it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mr.Fisty said:


> oes this make my butt look big."
> 
> Me.
> Starts duct taping my eyes ears and mouth.


By the way... duct tape comes in different colors now... which color would you like.. hee hee


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Blossom Leigh said:


> By the way... duct tape comes in different colors now... which color would you like.. hee hee



Green is my favorite color, but I can compromise. 

Maybe if i am ever asked that question, I should start running for my life.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Day1, don't worry over every single event, watch the trend.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Or maybe I should say, the view from behind looks fine.


----------



## Faithful123

Agree with BL don't read too much into it, it can change anytime, keep putting the effort into yourself. Setbacks and triumphs are part of the process, part of life, accept them and learn from them. It appears to me that you are learning. 

You're going fantastically well. Make sure you rest sometimes, give your brain a break, do something that helps in that process. Make sure you're sleeping and also eating well. Keep going my friend, we are all in your corner.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

I did learn something on tam.

"does my butt look big."

Me.
"Your crossing my boundaries with a no win situation."


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mr.Fisty said:


> Green is my favorite color, but I can compromise.
> 
> Maybe if i am ever asked that question, I should start running for my life.


:rofl:

That would be my advice to you for sure!


----------



## DayOne

*Re: Re: Day One...*



Blossom Leigh said:


> Don't put too much stock in that. She may change her mind. Totally a womans M.O.
> 
> At the same time... giving it that much time is a great way to guage the health of getting back together or actually moving on. I know it's scary, but a lot of good came out of tonight too.


But why bring it up? Right then, at the end of another successful talk. Did she think I'd forgotten she signed up for a year? Or did she just use it as a defence mechanism as we're getting too close?


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Your still in the early stages. Her guard is probably still up.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DayOne said:


> But why bring it up? Right then, at the end of another successful talk. Did she think I'd forgotten she signed up for a year? Or did she just use it as a defence mechanism as we're getting too close?


Personally I believe is a great skill to choose to leave things on a high note. She may get there.

Yes, defense of "getting too close"

You both mentioned being really scared.. it was hangover for her and something that felt unresolved. She is trying to define her boundaries. Her's have been missing just as much as yours have been. I would just exercise grace with it. Sometimes these learning curves are sloppy.


----------



## DayOne

*Re: Re: Day One...*



jld said:


> D1, do you feel like her bringing up the lease was a reaction to your bringing up the boundary issue? Or not at all?
> 
> Do you think the making out last night is the reason she brought up the lease? She is reminding both of you that the separation is in place? Protecting herself somehow?


I accept that that is possible. Was almost deliberately sh*tty timing, dropping that just as she left the car.


----------



## Faithful123

DayOne said:


> But why bring it up? Right then, at the end of another successful talk. Did she think I'd forgotten she signed up for a year? Or did she just use it as a defence mechanism as we're getting too close?


I think a defence mechanism, possible feeling vulnerable, it wasn't about you forgetting it was her own feelings that drove it in my view. Shes may be scared by what she found herself feeling again. Think about how you felt. As time goes on she will allow you in more and more. Stay consistent, focused and patient and don't read too much into it, try not to over think it.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

In duct tape, put a message on the door.

"You shall not pass."


----------



## DayOne

*Re: Re: Day One...*



Blossom Leigh said:


> Personally I believe is a great skill to choose to leave things on a high note. She may get there.
> 
> Yes, defense of "getting too close"
> 
> You both mentioned being really scared.. it was hangover for her and something that felt unresolved. She is trying to define her boundaries. Her's have been missing just as much as yours have been. I would just exercise grace with it. Sometimes these learning curves are sloppy.


We had finished on a high note. She'd actually gotten out of the car, then got back in to remind me of the lease.


----------



## DayOne

*Re: Re: Day One...*



Mr.Fisty said:


> In duct tape, put a message on the door.
> 
> "You shall not pass."


Do you have anything useful to contribute? If not, perhaps consider taking the night off.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DayOne said:


> We had finished on a high note. She'd actually gotten out of the car, then got back in to remind me of the lease.



if she isn't the vindictive type, definitely sounds like fear or a power move. If you are trying power moves with her, she may have just taken the control back.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

You have to go slow as each other want.

She probably wants to go slower than you.

Don't worry, your doing well. 

It is still a rollcoaster ride.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



DayOne said:


> Do you have anything useful to contribute? If not, perhaps consider taking the night off.


D1:

I know you are reeling, but humor puts us all back in the saddle faster than most other things.


----------



## Anon Pink

"You gotta keep em guessing, keep em on their toes..."

That's old school relationship manipulation and there are many people who still think this is the way to get things working again.

Could be...?

Could also be she's not very good at reading the new you and wanted to remind you that the separation still stands. Doesn't want to come off as too easy.

Another honest talk is in order. I would want to know why she felt she needed to underscore that point by mentioning it again.


----------



## Anon Pink

Mr.Fisty said:


> In duct tape, put a message on the door.
> 
> "You shall not pass."


In duct tape put a message on the mirror.

Ask, don't assume.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Maybe she doesn't trust herself and she projected that onto you... that is a very real possibility...

Chew on it enough to see different possibilities, but resist settling on any one of them until she shares her heart on it.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

That is why I suggest watching the trend, you simply can't make a big deal out of every situation.

It will fluctuate. 

Instead of judging a single event, judge them in groups.

It could be an off day.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks. I appreciate the helpful advice that you're giving (those that are). I'll get over it, I just have to process it. 

She had invited me to the movies on Wednesday. If she reaches out about that and we go, I'll talk to her then. But I'm going to tell her we need to dial it down. Step back for a while. We're both wide open and easy to hurt right now. I'm wide open and easy to hurt right now.


----------



## DayOne

Email sent: 

It didn't end well tonight.

And that was on me. I wasn't angry when I left, I was in pain. I let two things this evening get to me, and right now, I'm wide open. No shields. So when i get hurt, I feel it. I allow it. I need to feel what i feel, not to deny it or make me angry. 

It wasn't your intention to hurt me, I know that. The hurt came from within me. But i embrace it. I allow it. It's going to help me understand myself better, and to be a better person. The more i allow the pain to escape me, the stronger i become. 

And you're helping me. You're helping me feel the emotion, to learn to understand it, to control it, instead of it controlling me. You've always been trying to help me, to make me stronger, to make me better. I just wasted too much time failing to see that. As i told you in the car, you are a good person. 

I will be the man i should be. The man you have always seen in me. 

And you will be the strong, courageous, beautiful woman I see in you.

Your friend.

D1.


----------



## farsidejunky

Great response, brother. I know it is hard but try not to ruminate too much tonight. You have done well.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Great response, brother. I know it is hard but try not to ruminate too much tonight. You have done well.


Ruminate is one way of putting it. I'm choosing to use it, to process it, to accept it and push through it to a better place. My head is already in a better place because of that.

Edit: though i did find myself wishing it was Friday, as that'll be the booze free month over. That still unopened bottle of Jack that's been on my counter for 2 weeks looked goood tonight.

No booze, no smokes and no fap. I'm running out of vices!


----------



## farsidejunky

Funny how we reach for the escapes when things get difficult. I used to do the same.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Funny how we reach for the escapes when things get difficult. I used to do the same.


I quit the smokes 18 months ago. Switching to vaping worked for me.

The booze was easy to get over. The fap, not so much. But its a test of resolve, of self control. And it's working.


----------



## Faithful123

Keep going mate, its all part of the process, you're doing great. Stay Strong!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Fap?


----------



## Anon Pink

Yeah what's fap?


----------



## Nucking Futs

Anon Pink said:


> Yeah what's fap?


Masturbation.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

:rofl:

We walked into that one Anon...


----------



## Anon Pink

But what's it stand for?Feeling A Penis? Freeing A Pecker?

Never mind, Google to the rescue. Here you go Blossom...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fap


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yep, looked it up earlier and just laughed!


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Okay, don't look up mr. fisty on google, you will regret it.


----------



## DayOne

waw reply: 



> Hi, I applaud you allowing yourself to feel hurt and I understood that tonight. I am sorry that I brought up the year thing but I guess I am worried that we are moving to fast and I do not want anything to get in the way of us moving forward. When you allow yourself to feel, you allow me and hopefully others to do same. I know that it is a very hard time but in a way that is the beauty of it and hopefully out of the pain will come understanding, happiness and love.
> 
> You said two things hurt you tonight. What was the second. I don't want to hurt you although I know that sometimes I do without realising it. Sometimes that will be the result just because we are different but I do not want to hurt you on purpose. If I want to be vindictive I will more likely tell you rather than act on it.
> 
> Thank you for your honesty and for talking to me. This is the only way for us to continue forward and no matter how difficult I believe that out in the open it can be dealt with but bottled up just ends up hurting everyone.
> 
> On another note, I just want to say thank you for listening to me this morning and helping me make the decision not to respond to *family drama* e-mail. That was really helpful and I think that it made my day easier otherwise I might have lost focus and thought about the email all day.
> 
> Talk to you soon. *waw*


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> Fap?





Anon Pink said:


> Yeah what's fap?



Awwwww. You two are soooo cute! 



:rofl:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

D1: Lol... There is still some innocence left in this world. 

Great email from waw!




I already had suspicions about your screen name Mr. Fisty.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Ha, I guess correctly, she wants to go slower.

It is like dating again, except with familiarity.

My guess is, she is recognizing the changes, and seeing if they will stick.

Change is a long process, and she doesn't want to go through it again.

The year is probably a measuring stick to see how things go.

Then again, I could be wrong.

In simple terms, when we get hurt the first time, we are more cautious and wary.


I will let you guess my age between 20 to 30.Lol.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Mr.Fisty said:


> I will let you guess my age between 20 to 30.Lol.


Nah, I'm going with older than 48.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Blossom Leigh said:


> Nah, I'm going with older than 48.



HAHA. That would make me 2 years younger than my mom.


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> D1: Lol... There is still some innocence left in this world.
> 
> Great email from waw!


It did seem positive, yes.


----------



## DayOne

And yes. I need to rein it back in. I've suggested we back off for a while, say a month apart? But she looks at me in fear when i do and says:

"I don't want a month apart!"


----------



## Blossom Leigh

She wants nothing to jeopardize the progress. In her minds eye the two things that will jeopardize it are...

Staying totally no contact for any length of time

And moving too close too fast too soon.

ETA: She made that move FOR y'all even though it may feel like the opposite because it triggered a bit of rejection in you, thus the pain.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

This is where you need to communicate. Compromise, and see what the other is looking for.

My guess is dating a couple times a week.


----------



## jld

It does seem like you are still reactive to her. I would like to see you get stronger in yourself, so you can be a support to her. 

I made a post once about how my husband is an oak tree, and I sit in his branches. I am safe there. I am protected, but I can look out, and I can play in the tree.

Okay, this may not be exactly what your wife wants, but think about the image of the tree. It is independently strong, and can give shelter without needing much in return. 

Lol, that may not be a realistic model for everyone, as different men have different levels of needs. But think about the idea of getting stronger in yourself. WOTSM can help.


----------



## farsidejunky

So can Hold On To Your N.U.T.s. That is a much better place to start than WOTSM. N.U.T.s is like a warm up for WOTSM.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Refresh my memory on what WOTSM is


----------



## jld

WOTSM _is _pretty advanced. 

Far, you are reading it, aren't you? How is it going?


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Refresh my memory on what WOTSM is


See my sig.


----------



## farsidejunky

Way of the Superior Man.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Duh, right there in front of my face.. lol. Thanks!


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> It does seem like you are still reactive to her.
> 
> *That's understandable. I'm only what, 6 weeks into my 'refit'? Everything i have, emotionally, is raw, open. Until I get moved into my 'new home', I'll be highly susceptible to being triggered.*
> 
> I would like to see you get stronger in yourself, so you can be a support to her.
> 
> *As would I. See the above. I am going to get there, but there's a way to go yet.*
> 
> I made a post once about how my husband is an oak tree, and I sit in his branches. I am safe there. I am protected, but I can look out, and I can play in the tree.
> 
> Okay, this may not be exactly what your wife wants, but think about the image of the tree. It is independently strong, and can give shelter without needing much in return.
> 
> *I think she wants that. As do I. But she's afraid, as we both are, in these early days.*
> 
> Lol, that may not be a realistic model for everyone, as different men have different levels of needs. But think about the idea of getting stronger in yourself. WOTSM can help.
> 
> 
> *I've started WOTSM. It's harder going than NMMNG, but a lot of it is ringing true. N.U.T.s?*


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> She wants nothing to jeopardize the progress. In her minds eye the two things that will jeopardize it are...
> 
> Staying totally no contact for any length of time
> 
> And moving too close too fast too soon.
> 
> ETA: She made that move FOR y'all even though it may feel like the opposite because it triggered a bit of rejection in you, thus the pain.


Tough place to be. Scared of being apart, Scared of being together.


----------



## DayOne

I think, in regard to the lease thing, she's totally confused. 

She said that she took the lease to give us time to work on ourselves. BUT, when she left, i'm of the opinion that she was running. Running away from me, running away from her own pain, and simply looking for the first opportunity to get a safe place.

She had NO idea that I would have made the choices i've made, to have worked on myself as hard as i have. To have known that she would have been feeling the way she does about me, just six weeks later. 

And now, she's confused. She still needs her safe place, her time to recover. But she's also thinking "OMG, what have i done? A YEAR!?!?!"

And she's battling back and forward between those conflicting thoughts. 

And i have to tell her that. And to tell her that no matter what, no matter how long it takes, i'll be there. To hold her, to protect her, to be strong for her.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DayOne said:


> I think, in regard to the lease thing, she's totally confused.
> 
> She said that she took the lease to give us time to work on ourselves. BUT, when she left, i'm of the opinion that she was running. Running away from me, running away from her own pain, and simply looking for the first opportunity to get a safe place.
> 
> She had NO idea that I would have made the choices i've made, to have worked on myself as hard as i have. To have known that she would have been feeling the way she does about me, just six weeks later.
> 
> And now, she's confused. She still needs her safe place, her time to recover. But she's also thinking "OMG, what have i done? A YEAR!?!?!"
> 
> And she's battling back and forward between those conflicting thoughts.
> 
> And i have to tell her that. And to tell her that no matter what, no matter how long it takes, i'll be there. To hold her, to protect her, to be strong for her.


Reassurance is an excellent idea.


----------



## jld

That is very nice, D1. But you have to actually _be _strong for her. And that needs more work. You will know you are progressing when you are, effortlessly, not so reactive to her.

Again, see my sig.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I just read the premise for WOTSM and it is literally a summary of Parelli Natural Horsemanship that I have been studying since 2005. 

Balancing backbone with compassion

Carrot --- Stick



When I first came on TAM I was having to use a WHOLE lot of "stick" or back bone... I am grateful to be able to rebalance now because that compassion is extremely important.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> That is very nice, D1. But you have to actually _be _strong for her. And that needs more work. You will know you are progressing when you are, effortlessly, not so reactive to her.
> 
> Again, see my sig.


As I am gaining strength in being less reactive to my H, he in turn is learning to be less reactive to me. 

We are BOTH grateful.


----------



## farsidejunky

D1:

Hold On To Your N.U.T.s by Wayne Levine. If WOTSM were a master's degree, N.U.T.s would be the undergrad study.


----------



## jld

You are both kinder and stronger than I am, BL. I salute you.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Thank you :flowerkitty:


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> That is very nice, D1. But you have to actually _be _strong for her. And that needs more work. You will know you are progressing when you are, effortlessly, not so reactive to her.
> 
> Again, see my sig.
> 
> One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man


This concept of being unreactive, a rock, an oak. I'm having trouble separating these words with others, like unresponsive, dispassionate, detached, uncaring. All of which i could have been described as being pre-DDay. 

If i'm standing strong as an oak, what's to stop her from thinking i'm still just hollow inside, or worse, dead?


----------



## DayOne

tdwal said:


> I think what she is saying is you need to be strong like an oak, but not codependent and able to make yourself happy without having to be reactive to your wife to make you happy as you seem to be doing now.
> 
> Right now you are hanging your emotions on every thing she does.


Perhaps not every thing. But yes, I still do react. It's early days for me, as i mentioned previously.

And that's why I ask here, post my thoughts. Because there are people here who take the time to point out different perspectives, guiding me forward.


----------



## farsidejunky

DayOne said:


> This concept of being unreactive, a rock, an oak. I'm having trouble separating these words with others, like unresponsive, dispassionate, detached, uncaring. All of which i could have been described as being pre-DDay.
> 
> If i'm standing strong as an oak, what's to stop her from thinking i'm still just hollow inside, or worse, dead?


You don't actually have to be silent (dead). When she gets emotional, disrespectful, etc (ffs, I am going to sound like JLD here...) use active listening. Or just look at her and say, "I understand you are hurt, but I don't understand why. Please help me understand, and the truth will not make me love you any less." 

The idea is that no matter what she throws at you emotionally, it does not affect you because you are laser focused not on the emotions, but the why behind the emotions. 

It is like trying to discern a sound pattern from white noise. They are in there; you just have to not get caught up in the random sounds.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> You don't actually have to be silent (dead). When she gets emotional, disrespectful, etc (ffs, I am going to sound like JLD here...) use active listening. Of just look at her and say, "I understand you are hurt, but I don't understand why. Please help me understand, and the truth will not make me love you any less."
> 
> The idea is that no matter what she throws at you emotionally, it does not affect you because you are laser focused not on the emotions, but the why behind the emotions.
> 
> It is like trying to discern a sound pattern from white noise. They are in there; you just have to not get caught up in the random sounds.


Got it. Thanks, Far. :smthumbup:


Edit: "I am going to sound like JLD here..."

That's a good thing!


----------



## jld

The next time you find yourself reacting, switch into "Help me understand," instead. Then tell us how it goes.


----------



## DayOne

Issues resolved with waw. Moving on.

Workout routine is getting easier. Still working on the PT's recommended course, but added the rowing machine as well as longer times on the bike. Routine now takes about 1 1/2 half hours.

Warm up. Stationary Bike: 10 minutes
Cross trainer 15 minutes
Shoulder Press (I do this first as it's a killer for me) 40lbs
Chest press 50lbs
Seated Row 50lbs
Leg Press 85lbs
Body Weight Squats
Arm Curl 50lbs
Tricep Extension 80lbs
Abdominal Crunch 80lbs
Rowing Machine 10 Minutes
Cool down. Stationary bike 5 mins.

Not going for big weights on the machines, but rather lots of reps (3 x 15 with intervals). And add a little more weight each week. Certainly seems to be working. 


And alternate days are running, during the lunchbreak. A couple of miles for now. Gets me out off the office and clears my head. Still struggling with lung capacity, which is holding me back, but that's on me for 30+ years of smoking. On the bright side, if you'd told me last year i could 2 miles (or 200 yards), i'd have LMAO. So i'm focusing on that.

And of course i'm still walking the doggies. A couple of miles every other day. They need it, i need it. Gets us all out of the house before the walls close in.


----------



## DayOne

Checking in. Not much going on. Changing up (and escalating) my daytime exercise routine. Lunchtime run at work hasn't been thrilling me, so going back to running in the evening instead as i prefer my home based route. My lunchtime exercise will be the office building stairs. Up and down 3 storeys, for an hour. I used to do it & it's a [email protected] good workout. And the gym on alternate days.

Spent some quality time with waw over the weekend. Gym, movies, hanging with my family. Seemed go OK. Slow progress being made. She's warming up to the new me.


----------



## Faithful123

Good to hear was thinking about you.


----------



## firefairy

Slow progress is better than no progress! Baby steps! It sounds like you are building your confidence and feeling better about yourself!! Glad your weekend went well!


----------



## DayOne

firefairy said:


> Slow progress is better than no progress! Baby steps! It sounds like you are building your confidence and feeling better about yourself!! Glad your weekend went well!


Thanks FireFairy. As I work on myself, the benefits are definitely being noticed by her. 

She's liking the new look. I'm down to 192lbs, from 216. I don't have a pair of pants that fit properly now!  Due to diet (no more junk), drastic reduction in booze (just finished a 'dry' month), and all the exercise (running, swimming and the gym) have helped the lbs fly off.

I feel stronger, more self assured. I make a point of rolling my shoulders back and lifting my head when I walk. Striding out instead of slouching forward and shuffling in defeat. It completely changes my posture, self confidence, and appearance. 

Strangely enough, knowing that we're closer now than we have been in years, actually helps me to concentrate better on myself. Negative thoughts, feelings of "what am I doing?!", and low self esteem are more manageable, and decrease daily. 

We're dating, and she's finally allowed herself to call it that. And Sunday mornings are 'ours'. A regular gym date and a coffee afterwards. Next Sunday will be an 'upgrade' to a post workout breakfast. 

But I don't allow this byproduct to cloud my judgement. I don't allow myself to think "I've made it". Long way to go.


----------



## just got it 55

DayOne said:


> Checking in. Not much going on. Changing up (and escalating) my daytime exercise routine. Lunchtime run at work hasn't been thrilling me, so going back to running in the evening instead as i prefer my home based route. My lunchtime exercise will be the office building stairs. Up and down 3 storeys, for an hour. I used to do it & it's a [email protected] good workout. And the gym on alternate days.
> 
> Spent some quality time with waw over the weekend. Gym, movies, hanging with my family. Seemed go OK. Slow progress being made. She's warming up to the new me.


More importantly you seem to be warming up to the new you.

Progress my brother progress

55


----------



## 2xloser

just got it 55 said:


> More importantly you seem to be warming up to the new you.
> 
> Progress my brother progress
> 
> 55


YES! I second that. Keep it rolling...


----------



## DayOne

just got it 55 said:


> More importantly you seem to be warming up to the new you.
> 
> Progress my brother progress
> 
> 55


I do get days (like this one) where I kinda feel like i've plateaued. But i'm learning not to stress over it. Just enjoy the break. 
Work is kinda quiet right now, as I'm waiting for a new project to start, so I fill in the gaps with rereading of NMMNG, MMSLP, WOTSP, etc. Also browsing TAM looking for pointers. Just been reading Zillards OP. About 1/2 way through now. 
Not many other threads regarding situations similar to mine though.


----------



## jld

You are doing all the right things, D1. 

Would you like to share some things you are learning from those books?


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> You are doing all the right things, D1.
> 
> Would you like to share some things you are learning from those books?


Difficult to know really jld. I take what I need from the books. The parts that work, for me. I don't use any of them as 'the path', as there's no definitive manual for our particular situations. Just find the parts that 'speak to you', and apply them.


----------



## jld

What has spoken to you?


----------



## DayOne

Bumped into waw (unplanned) at the gym. She worked on her thing, I worked on mine. Walked her home. She confessed to totally checking me out most of the time we were there... 


MAP FTW!


----------



## Nucking Futs

DayOne said:


> Bumped into waw (*unplanned*) at the gym. She worked on her thing, I worked on mine. Walked her home. She confessed to totally checking me out most of the time we were there...
> 
> 
> MAP FTW!


Unplanned by _you_ maybe.


----------



## DayOne

*Re: Re: Day One...*



Nucking Futs said:


> Unplanned by _you_ maybe.


Heh, you caught that, did you? I did too. She knows Tuesday night is gym night for me, and counselling night for her. She claimed that she just needed to get a post therapy workout in... (when she knew I'd be there.)


----------



## farsidejunky

Player.


----------



## DayOne

Possible success at work today. There's a project i'm supposed to be involved with. Rolling new PC's & laptops, with windows 7, company wide (100's of units). Lots of much needed overtime. 

But the project is being continually stalled, due mainly to the inability of those higher up to get their sh*t together. It's gotten to the point where my team lead and I refer to it as 'Operation Fustercluck'.

So the latest update is that it's being pushed back to mid December, which in reality means next January, at best. Frustrating as I was hoping to get some extra xmas ££. 

Instead of getting p*ssed about it, i've looked for and possibly found another option. I used to get a decent extra padding in my paycheck doing 'side work' (WSUS updates, etc) for the Wintel dept (that's servers and stuff to the non geeks). But that dried up a while back. But talked to my team lead and he mentioned that the new Wintel manager is a guy that used to run the service centre (my dept). He knows me, I know him, we get on OK. So team lead is going to go to bat for me and talk to the Wintel manager. Get me back on the WSUS overtime list.

Team lead is a stand up guy. Ex-Army, doesn't put with my sh*t, definitely an 'integrated male' and on my 'safe person' list. He knows about what's happening with me and is cutting me slack to be able to deal with it.


----------



## DayOne

Kinda overdid it yesterday though. 45 mins of stair running during lunch hour and 1.5 hours of gym last night. Calves are... tight today.


----------



## DayOne

Thinking about the 'gym coincidence'. We had a short email interaction on Monday, as she'd left her phone at home when she went to work and had emailed me to let me know. "In case you had tried to reach me, and thought i was ignoring you".

I replied back: "Thanks for letting me know about your phone. My intention was to step back and let us have some breathing room anyway"

And then she 'decides' to show up at the gym....


----------



## jld

She misses you.

I understand why you are giving her space, and you are probably right to do it. But I feel for her. 

I feel like I am always chasing my husband, always yearning for his attention. It can do a number on the wife, if she is prone to insecurity (not saying your wife is). It feels like he has all the power.

And of course he does, if he can stand by himself like that.


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> She misses you.
> 
> I understand why you are giving her space, and you are probably right to do it. But I feel for her.
> 
> I feel like I am always chasing my husband, always yearning for his attention. It can do a number on the wife, if she is prone to insecurity (not saying your wife is). It feels like he has all the power.
> 
> And of course he does, if he can stand by himself like that.


I think you're right. She is missing me. Or at least missing 'something' that she doesn't have anymore.

But, here's the thing. She moved out because she 'needed space'. She.Moved.Out. Into a 12 month rental. 

Not a criticism of her choice, but it WAS her choice. "To give us time to work on ourselves". 

Which, as you can see, i've dived into, fully committed. Working on myself. Improve myself. Part of which requires trying to establish boundaries, a separation, between us. Accepting that we need to work on ourselves.

And now waw appears to be getting... nervous? 
She made a boundary about too much intimacy (the kissing thing) and then threw that out a couple of days later. Now she initiates kissing. Frequently. 
She walks (literally) through my space boundary (showing up at the house unannounced).
I say we should 'take a break' from all this seeing each other so often, she freaks out. 
I mention "breathing room for a couple of days", and she's showing up a day later. 
She's stated that she's worried I will move on from her.

This is the woman that bailed, just about 2 months ago, saying she couldn't be together anymore! 
:scratchhead:

So what is it she's missing? Me? The marriage? Something else? 
I'm not in a place to be distracted by her sudden need to be around me, or at least something she thinks she needs. I'm not where I need to be yet. This 'intermeshing' brings the risk of making me lose focus. And I can't do that.


----------



## DayOne

And yes, jld, she is an insecure person. But there's nothing I can do about that. I've come to the realisation that she has to work on her issues, as i am working on mine. I can't fix her. I used to try, and that was a fail (obviously). 

And, tbh, your situation, and your relationship, is (currently) different to mine. You're married, living together, Husband and Wife. We're not. There's a sheet of paper in the safe at home, issued by the State of Nevada, that says we're Husband and Wife. But that's all there is to prove it right now.


----------



## farsidejunky

I guess the question is why it bothers you. 

Does it bother you because she left first? That sounds like resentment. 

Or does it really bother you because it is a distraction?

I assure you the more space you try to put in between you, the harder she will pursue you.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> I guess the question is why it bothers you.
> 
> Does it bother you because she left first? That sounds like resentment.
> 
> Or does it really bother you because it is a distraction?
> 
> I assure you the more space you try to put in between you, the harder she will pursue you.


It doesn't bother me that she left. I give her props for doing what needed to be done. There's no resentment. 

"really bother me because it is a distraction"? Yeah, little bit. This was supposed to be time for us to be apart and work on ourselves. Yes, i've made massive leaps forward from where I was. I'm not the same person I was. (her recent attraction to me is proof of that). But am I ready to allow her back into my life, my head? Will it throw me off track? 

And what improvements has she made? Where is she on her journey? She's only a couple of sessions into therapy, Hasn't read anything (though she's ordered a book that was recommended), or worked through her issues with 3rd parties, in the real world or online. While I accept that i've made mistakes and done stupid things in the marriage, I'm aware that she has also contributed to problems we've had. Has she addressed those? Will be we both be coming back together as different people? Because, if we're not both changed, this would be doomed to fail. Again.

I don't really mind that she's pursuing me (it's kinda fun), but I'm just not sure i'm ready to be caught, yet.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Player.


Oh. Is that was that is?


----------



## marriedman321

DayOne said:


> Not a criticism of her choice, but it WAS her choice. "To give us time to work on ourselves".
> 
> Which, as you can see, i've dived into, fully committed. Working on myself. Improve myself. Part of which requires trying to establish boundaries, a separation, between us. Accepting that we need to work on ourselves.
> 
> And now waw appears to be getting... nervous?
> She made a boundary about too much intimacy (the kissing thing) and then threw that out a couple of days later. Now she initiates kissing. Frequently.
> She walks (literally) through my space boundary (showing up at the house unannounced).
> I say we should 'take a break' from all this seeing each other so often, she freaks out.
> I mention "breathing room for a couple of days", and she's showing up a day later.
> She's stated that she's worried I will move on from her.
> 
> This is the woman that bailed, just about 2 months ago, saying she couldn't be together anymore!
> :scratchhead:
> 
> So what is it she's missing? Me? The marriage? Something else?
> I'm not in a place to be distracted by her sudden need to be around me, or at least something she thinks she needs. I'm not where I need to be yet. This 'intermeshing' brings the risk of making me lose focus. And I can't do that.



I would be careful not to put too much emphasis on her actions, and perceiving them as "missing you" in the context of wanting you back. I did the same, and still find myself sucked into that circle..

My ex wife and I went through divorce. We live separately. She cheated and had an affair. We are not getting back together.

However, she still goes out of her way to see me, and interact with me as much as possible. She asked me if she could come cook for me and my son. Insists when I drop my son off at school she gets him out of the car. (Where she works). Drops him off at my house and asks to come inside. Always lingers around hanging on my words.. Texts me to get my attention etc.

At first I was thinking she must love me, miss me, etc. But at the end of the day I was reading into this too much. It was bothering my mental state. Which is why no contact is the best option for me.

In my case, she might just be hanging on to what was familiar. Even though she does not want me, she might be wanting me to want her, so she shows up and lingers around, etc. The more I told her I don't want to talk to her , or see her, the nicer and more forward she becomes. 

I think my mind was playing tricks on me, but it was sad on my part to be hanging around waiting for, and reading into these tiny crumbs of affection from a woman who left me.


----------



## DayOne

marriedman321 said:


> I would be careful not to put too much emphasis on her actions, and perceiving them as "missing you" in the context of wanting you back. I did the same, and still find myself sucked into that circle..
> 
> My ex wife and I went through divorce. We live separately. She cheated and had an affair. We are not getting back together.
> 
> However, she still goes out of her way to see me, and interact with me as much as possible. She asked me if she could come cook for me and my son. Insists when I drop my son off at school she gets him out of the car. (Where she works). Drops him off at my house and asks to come inside. Always lingers around hanging on my words.. Texts me to get my attention etc.
> 
> At first I was thinking she must love me, miss me, etc. But at the end of the day I was reading into this too much. It was bothering my mental state. Which is why no contact is the best option for me.
> 
> In my case, she might just be hanging on to what was familiar. Even though she does not want me, she might be wanting me to want her, so she shows up and lingers around, etc. The more I told her I don't want to talk to her , or see her, the nicer and more forward she becomes.
> 
> I think my mind was playing tricks on me, but it was sad on my part to be hanging around waiting for, and reading into these tiny crumbs of affection from a woman who left me.


Thanks for the feedback. Question though; Apart from the instances above, do you and your Ex walk arm in arm down the street? Hold hands whenever possible? Kiss? And by kiss, i mean full on, holding each other, prolonged, 'french' style smooching? Where you both forget to breathe for a minute afterwards? 

Because that's where we're at, currently. I don't see these as breadcrumbs.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

DayOne said:


> It doesn't bother me that she left. I give her props for doing what needed to be done. There's no resentment.
> 
> "really bother me because it is a distraction"? Yeah, little bit. This was supposed to be time for us to be apart and work on ourselves. Yes, i've made massive leaps forward from where I was. I'm not the same person I was. (her recent attraction to me is proof of that). But am I ready to allow her back into my life, my head? Will it throw me off track?
> 
> And what improvements has she made? Where is she on her journey? She's only a couple of sessions into therapy, Hasn't read anything (though she's ordered a book that was recommended), or worked through her issues with 3rd parties, in the real world or online. While I accept that i've made mistakes and done stupid things in the marriage, I'm aware that she has also contributed to problems we've had. Has she addressed those? Will be we both be coming back together as different people? Because, if we're not both changed, this would be doomed to fail. Again.
> 
> I don't really mind that she's pursuing me (it's kinda fun), but I'm just not sure i'm ready to be caught, yet.


 She is become more needy and clingy because she probably feels you don't need her in your life, or not as much. Another probability is other women are noticing you,, and she can see it too. She is probably afraid wnother woman will seek your attention. So she crowds your space, and becomes more possessive. Although, I could be wrong.


----------



## DayOne

Mr.Fisty said:


> She is become more needy and clingy because she probably feels you don't need her in your life, or not as much. Another probability is other women are noticing you,, and she can see it too. She is probably afraid another woman will seek your attention. So she crowds your space, and becomes more possessive. Although, I could be wrong.


She'd be right, and i don't think you're wrong. I am working towards not 'needing' her. My goal is to be self sufficient, or least a lot closer to being self sufficient than I was. Where I don't 'need' her to make me, me. If she wishes to return into my life, our house, that would be a nice result. 

And she may well be "afraid another woman will seek my attention". She's seen the shape i'm getting into with diet and the running/swimming/gym. And she likes it. And she's seeing me in the gym, and realising she's 55 and outclassed physically by smoking hot, yoga pant wearing, gymbunnies half her age. 

But i'm not noticing the gymbunnies (too much! ) That's not where my head is right now. I'm in the gym for me. To build myself up, be stronger. 

Also, i've told her that i've made a point of interacting with users in my office (i'm desktop support). Talking to them more, being friendly instead of my old grouchy self. Even 'flirting' a little, just for fun. Again, not interested in 'looking', just practice to help bring me out of myself.

Any concerns she has I'm going to start something with anyone else... are in her head.

But that's kind of a good thing. Get her off balance, a little worried. Make her work a little harder. Textbook MAP. 

I don't see myself with anyone in the future but her. But don't know if we're not rushing back into something before we're both ready.


----------



## jld

Mr.Fisty said:


> She is become more needy and clingy because she probably feels you don't need her in your life, or not as much. Another probability is other women are noticing you,, and she can see it too. She is probably afraid wnother woman will seek your attention. So she crowds your space, and becomes more possessive. Although, I could be wrong.


I think her feeling for D1 is genuine.

D1, I respect your need for boundaries. You are creating a new power dynamic in your marriage, which, if properly directed, could be the foundation for a very healthy relationship.

I just feel sorry for her, is all. My husband lives away from us for work. I know what it is like to miss your man.

Just saw your last post. I don't agree with making a wife jealous. A lot of us are insecure enough. I think it is cruel.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> She misses you.
> 
> I understand why you are giving her space, and you are probably right to do it. But I feel for her.
> 
> I feel like I am always chasing my husband, always yearning for his attention. It can do a number on the wife, if she is prone to insecurity (not saying your wife is). It feels like he has all the power.
> 
> And of course he does, if he can stand by himself like that.


That dynamic was what I didn't like about my 1st marriage. It got exhausting. I felt like I chased him for 17 years. Very lonely.

And though my current marriage has a different set of issues, he is strong, but engaged. He has had to learn to not be overly engaged and in constructive ways vs destructive. Things are MUCH better and I prefer the closeness. He actually chased me last night 

So, I would balance the "space" then chase her just enough to make her feel special, then back off again. Charge her up, then dry it off.  And slow and rhythmically enough to not "alert" her. The less she works on herself I would increase the space if her behavior requires it.


----------



## jld

marriedman321 said:


> I would be careful not to put too much emphasis on her actions, and perceiving them as "missing you" in the context of wanting you back. I did the same, and still find myself sucked into that circle..
> 
> My ex wife and I went through divorce. We live separately. She cheated and had an affair. We are not getting back together.
> 
> However, she still goes out of her way to see me, and interact with me as much as possible. She asked me if she could come cook for me and my son. Insists when I drop my son off at school she gets him out of the car. (Where she works). Drops him off at my house and asks to come inside. Always lingers around hanging on my words.. Texts me to get my attention etc.
> 
> At first I was thinking she must love me, miss me, etc. But at the end of the day I was reading into this too much. It was bothering my mental state. Which is why no contact is the best option for me.
> 
> In my case, she might just be hanging on to what was familiar. Even though she does not want me, she might be wanting me to want her, so she shows up and lingers around, etc. The more I told her I don't want to talk to her , or see her, the nicer and more forward she becomes.
> 
> I think my mind was playing tricks on me, but it was sad on my part to be hanging around waiting for, and reading into these tiny crumbs of affection from a woman who left me.


I don't know your whole story, mm, but based on what you write here . . . No change of heart is possible?


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> That dynamic was what I didn't like about my 1st marriage. It got exhausting. I felt like I chased him for 17 years. Very lonely.
> 
> And though my current marriage has a different set of issues, he is strong, but engaged. He has had to learn to not be overly engaged and in constructive ways vs destructive. Things are MUCH better and I prefer the closeness. He actually chased me last night
> 
> So, I would balance the "space" then chase her just enough to make her feel special, then back off again. Charge her up, then dry it off.  And slow and rhythmically enough to not "alert" her. The less she works on herself I would increase the space if her behavior requires it.


How did your first marriage end, BL? Did he have an affair?


----------



## DayOne

DayOne said:


> Possible success at work today...
> 
> Snip.
> 
> .... the new Wintel manager is a guy that used to run the service centre (my dept). He knows me, I know him, we get on OK. So team lead is going to go to bat for me and talk to the Wintel manager. Get me back on the WSUS overtime list.


Update: Took charge and talked to the Wintel manager myself. Positive feedback, and he'll look into getting me involved.


----------



## marriedman321

DayOne said:


> Thanks for the feedback. Question though; Apart from the instances above, do you and your Ex walk arm in arm down the street? Hold hands whenever possible? Kiss? And by kiss, i mean full on, holding each other, prolonged, 'french' style smooching? Where you both forget to breathe for a minute afterwards?
> 
> Because that's where we're at, currently. I don't see these as breadcrumbs.


No.

After she did move into another residence she would see me after divorce mediation and hug me and not let go. She did start to say she only wanted to be separated etc.

Probably, if I played it differently, I could have kissed her. Or if I had a different mindset i could have had her cook dinner at my place. Or I could have tried to be where she is.. But at the end of the day, she left me. 

I think if I pursued her, it would have just made her leaving me easier. Sort of like she has a new life, and can still have the old if it doesn't work out. 

I generally think it takes a lot for a woman to leave and start over. Mine had an affair. She must have a thought process, or goal in her mind that led her to such a big move. She must be ok inside with losing you. Or she might just want a different life. 

What has she said? What do you think? It seems you don't think she is really working on herself to change things that would make the marriage better. She must have some sort of plan in mind..


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> How did your first marriage end, BL? Did he have an affair?


Not in a traditional sense no.

He always had commitment issues that showed up either with time, money or attention. And eventually when it showed up in the bedroom by mentioning three of my friends by name that he wanted to "do" that all of a sudden ended his six year aorgasmia, i was done.


----------



## DayOne

marriedman321 said:


> No.
> 
> After she did move into another residence she would see me after divorce mediation and hug me and not let go. She did start to say she only wanted to be separated etc.
> 
> Probably, if I played it differently, I could have kissed her. Or if I had a different mindset i could have had her cook dinner at my place. Or I could have tried to be where she is.. But at the end of the day, she left me.
> 
> I think if I pursued her, it would have just made her leaving me easier. Sort of like she has a new life, and can still have the old if it doesn't work out.
> 
> I generally think it takes a lot for a woman to leave and start over. Mine had an affair. She must have a thought process, or goal in her mind that led her to such a big move. She must be ok inside with losing you. Or she might just want a different life.
> 
> What has she said? What do you think? It seems you don't think she is really working on herself to change things that would make the marriage better. She must have some sort of plan in mind..


I don't feel that i'm Plan B. 

I think she has a lot to work through on her side, as i still do on mine. She's not as open about her progress (for instance I asked her how therapy was going, she said she wasn't ready to talk about it. Yet.) as i've been about my progress. But equally she's opened herself up to me more than she has in years. Because she is beginning to trust the newer me, and not always be worried I'm going to use what she says about her own feelings, against her.

There wasn't an affair in our split. TBH, she ran because i'd been a d*ck, for way too long, in our relationship. I own that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Emotional safety is critical D1 ... glad you are seeing that.


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Not in a traditional sense no.
> 
> He always had commitment issues that showed up either with time, money or attention. And eventually when it showed up in the bedroom by mentioning three of my friends by name that he wanted to "do" that all of a sudden ended his six year aorgasmia, i was done.


It sounds like he was not fully into the marriage. And he really had some issues going on.

You were wise to move on, Blossom.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> It sounds like he was not fully into the marriage. And he really had some issues going on.
> 
> You were wise to move on, Blossom.



Yes, and he wouldn't seek counsel, so I cut my losses. I told him I was terrified to give him another 17 years of my life in early 2007 and four months later AFTER I had separated I got involved with someone, so that became the big story instead of why I actually left. So that was my mistake in that process


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> Yes, and he wouldn't seek counsel, so I cut my losses. I told him I was terrified to give him another 17 years of my life in early 2007 and four months later AFTER I had separated I got involved with someone, so that became the big story instead of why I actually left. So that was my mistake in that process


He expected you to wait until you were officially divorced?

I think you were fine, BL. Do you not feel that way?


----------



## marriedman321

DayOne said:


> I don't feel that i'm Plan B.
> 
> I think she has a lot to work through on her side, as i still do on mine. She's not as open about her progress (for instance I asked her how therapy was going, she said she wasn't ready to talk about it. Yet.) as i've been about my progress. But equally she's opened herself up to me more than she has in years. Because she is beginning to trust the newer me, and not always be worried I'm going to use what she says about her own feelings, against her.
> 
> There wasn't an affair in our split. TBH, she ran because i'd been a d*ck, for way too long, in our relationship. I own that.


I do hear of people separating and getting back together. 

In my situation, and at this time, I am probably less trusting of stated reasons and real reasons.


----------



## DayOne

marriedman321 said:


> I do hear of people separating and getting back together.
> 
> In my situation, and at this time, I am probably less trusting of stated reasons and real reasons.


That's understandable. TAM, home of the previously burnt.


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> I think her feeling for D1 is genuine.
> 
> *I think it is too. She hated who I was, but she knew there was someone much better underneath. Now i'm finding him too, she's attracted to the new man and the work he's putting in.*
> 
> D1, I respect your need for boundaries. You are creating a new power dynamic in your marriage, which, if properly directed, could be the foundation for a very healthy relationship.
> 
> *I'm working on that. All guidance in that direction is appreciated.*
> 
> I just feel sorry for her, is all. My husband lives away from us for work. I know what it is like to miss your man.
> 
> Just saw your last post. I don't agree with making a wife jealous. A lot of us are insecure enough. I think it is cruel.
> 
> * That's not my intention, jld. You should know me better than than that *.


----------



## jld

*But that's kind of a good thing. Get her off balance, a little worried. Make her work a little harder. Textbook MAP. *

This is what worried me. Maybe I misunderstood?


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> *But that's kind of a good thing. Get her off balance, a little worried. Make her work a little harder. Textbook MAP. *
> 
> This is what worried me. Maybe I misunderstood?


No worries. I'm not playing a game. Have you read MMSLP? The MAP isn't about making her jealous, per se. It's about making you (the man) feel better about yourself, and increasing your own self esteem and confidence. In the same way that NO MORE Mister Nice Guy, isn't about being a 'bad guy' or a jerk instead.

Edit: jld, you did ask *"What has spoken to you?"*


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> He expected you to wait until you were officially divorced?
> 
> I think you were fine, BL. Do you not feel that way?


I really should have waited from my own integrity, but he certainly made issue of it.

Even if it was only two weeks before I told him I finally wanted a divorce.

Because of who he was it was made into a big scandal.


----------



## jld

DayOne said:


> No worries. I'm not playing a game. Have you read MMSLP? The MAP isn't about making her jealous, per se. It's about making you (the man) feel better about yourself, and increasing your own self esteem and confidence. In the same way that NO MORE Mister Nice Guy, isn't about being a 'bad guy' or a jerk instead.
> 
> Edit: jld, you did ask *"What has spoken to you?"*


Well, what did the bolded mean then? Getting her worried, make her work harder? 

Sorry if I am dense about this. I guess I feel like men already have a lot of power in relationships. Add in making her worried, and the younger gals at the gym, and it did seem concerning to me.

And yes, thank you for saying what spoke to you!


----------



## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I really should have waited from my own integrity, but he certainly made issue of it.
> 
> Even if it was only two weeks before I told him I finally wanted a divorce.
> 
> Because of who he was it was made into a big scandal.


Did you agree to dating during separation?

I just don't see you as a woman lacking integrity, Blossom. But I hear you on wanting to keep true to yourself.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> Did you agree to dating during separation?
> 
> I just don't see you as a woman lacking integrity, Blossom. But I hear you on wanting to keep true to yourself.


We never discussed it.


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> Well, what did the bolded mean then? Getting her worried, make her work harder?
> 
> Sorry if I am dense about this. I guess I feel like men already have a lot of power in relationships. Add in making her worried, and the younger gals at the gym, and it did seem concerning to me.
> 
> And yes, thank you for saying what spoke to you!



'Worried' was the wrong word perhaps, if you're struggling with it. Especially if you've not read MMSLP/MAP. And I think you're reading too much into it. And you're far from 'dense'. 

I'm not intending to make her jealous. I'm not looking for a Plan B, or indicating that I am. I don't point out to her that there are 'younger gals' at the gym, or that i'm even interested in them (i'm not). 

This not a power play. I'm moving forward, with the help of various sources, the MAP being one of them. Part of the MAP describes that as you move forward and upwards, your partner (if you have one) will see the new, better you, and maybe decide they also need to improve. Its about helping your partner move forward as much as yourself. 

A couple of lines from the book:



> Simply put, The MAP gives women what they actually want and then they respond to it.
> 
> Importantly, The MAP is not about changing her, it’s about changing you. (If it was about changing her I would have called it The Female Action Plan, or The FAP.)
> 
> The MAP also focuses on modeling the positive of both Alpha and Beta male behavior. Most men find they are more naturally good at one or the other. If you’re better at modeling the Alpha traits, then you will make the fastest gains by working on the Beta traits. If you are better at Beta, then learning the Alpha traits will get you the fastest gains. The MAP also requires you to maximize your physical fitness as best you can.


Kind of out of context, which may not be helpful. And my explanation may not be the best. So you may have to just trust me on this.


----------



## jld

Thanks, D1. I think I am just sensitive to power imbalances, which, imo, usually favor the man.

So glad to hear you are not interested in exploiting her possible insecurity in any way.


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> Thanks, D1. I think I am just sensitive to power imbalances, which, imo, usually favor the man.
> 
> So glad to hear you are not interested in exploiting her possible insecurity in any way.


No probs hun. If i'm doing anything with her insecurities, it's using my new strength to help her, not play on them for my gain.


----------



## jld

DayOne said:


> No probs hun. If i'm doing anything with her insecurities, it's using my new strength to help her, not play on them for my gain.


Like I have said, and even more often have thought to myself, you are a real man, D1.


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> Like I have said, and even more often have thought to myself, you are a real man, D1.


You trying to make me blush?


----------



## jld

. Giving you more opportunities to learn to take a compliment!


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> . Giving you more opportunities to learn to take a compliment!


Good luck with that! :rofl:


----------



## sammy3

DayOne said:


> I think you're right. She is missing me. Or at least missing 'something' that she doesn't have anymore.
> 
> But, here's the thing. She moved out because she 'needed space'. She.Moved.Out. Into a 12 month rental.
> 
> Not a criticism of her choice, but it WAS her choice. "To give us time to work on ourselves".
> 
> Which, as you can see, i've dived into, fully committed. Working on myself. Improve myself. Part of which requires trying to establish boundaries, a separation, between us. Accepting that we need to work on ourselves.
> 
> And now waw appears to be getting... nervous?
> She made a boundary about too much intimacy (the kissing thing) and then threw that out a couple of days later. Now she initiates kissing. Frequently.
> She walks (literally) through my space boundary (showing up at the house unannounced).
> I say we should 'take a break' from all this seeing each other so often, she freaks out.
> I mention "breathing room for a couple of days", and she's showing up a day later.
> She's stated that she's worried I will move on from her.
> 
> This is the woman that bailed, just about 2 months ago, saying she couldn't be together anymore!
> :scratchhead:
> 
> So what is it she's missing? Me? The marriage? Something else?
> I'm not in a place to be distracted by her sudden need to be around me, or at least something she thinks she needs. I'm not where I need to be yet. This 'intermeshing' brings the risk of making me lose focus. And I can't do that.




What I see is a very difficult sitution. You both are living 4 lives within each other, none really defined. Both living a separated life and a married life still, and the paths get crossed sometimes on the same plane sometimes not. 

You're not like a new unknown couple that is going forward with each other, because you have so much history already together. You are married without the benefits of growing together within a marriage, and separated without growing within the benefits of that experience. Your are together even in separation. 

It so hard to let go of something that it's all you've know for such a long time, it's learning to uncouple, and act accordingly. 
imho.

~sammy


----------



## DayOne

sammy3 said:


> What I see is a very difficult situation. You both are living 4 lives within each other, none really defined. Both living a separated life and a married life still, and the paths get crossed sometimes on the same plane sometimes not.
> 
> You're not like a new unknown couple that is going forward with each other, because you have so much history already together. You are married without the benefits of growing together within a marriage, and separated without growing within the benefits of that experience. Your are together even in separation.
> 
> It so hard to let go of something that it's all you've know for such a long time, it's learning to uncouple, and act accordingly.
> imho.
> 
> ~sammy


Sing it, sister! 

That's pretty much it. I consider my thread to be one of the more unusual on TAM, in that it's not a breakup (per se), no EA or PA affairs. No gambling, alcohol, violence, Xboxes or other addiction. No need for VAR's, tracking, PI's, snooping on email or FB. (much to the chagrin of certain people here, i'm sure... )We were just a couple who needed a time out. Room to breath and decide which way our marriage was going to go. 

And there's still a [email protected] good chance of 'R'. Provided we are able to escape the wreckage of our previous relationship. It's not easy. I think my post above came from one of the 'down' times. But as time progresses and I get my head straightened out, I can see the benefits of our situation. In way, we ARE like an unknown couple, starting out. But unlike most new couples, we're going into this new relationship knowing there's baggage to be dealt with, where most have to find and deal with it down the road. 

I'm certainly not going to be the person i was previously, and neither is she. Though, TBF, I am the one who has to make the most changes. Those posts that appear on TAM, lamenting how "he just doesn't want to understand me. He's so mean to me. He's so closed off and I don't think he'll ever change" Yeah well, that WAS me.

While it's impossible not to acknowledge 24 years of history, we have to learn how to heal from the damage caused by each other, TO each other, and leave just the best parts to take forward. That's going to take time to sift through. And we're both OK with that. We have our own spaces, to give us time to work on ourselves, and also have time together, to work on each other.


----------



## firefairy

Day One – From reading your post, I believe that you do have a good chance at ‘R’. From my experience, I think that time apart to find yourself again and to take a step back from the hard times and look at them with a new and better perspective can be both healing and healthy for a relationship. I think sometimes we get lost in money woes and raising kids that we begin to neglect ourselves and our spouses. We let the stress of life interfere with our communication and weigh us down. I applaud all the progress that you are making! I am happy that you are able to look at things more positively and learn from your mistakes!! Only good things to come!!


----------



## marriedman321

DayOne said:


> I don't feel that i'm Plan B.
> 
> I think she has a lot to work through on her side, as i still do on mine. She's not as open about her progress (for instance I asked her how therapy was going, she said she wasn't ready to talk about it. Yet.) as i've been about my progress. But equally she's opened herself up to me more than she has in years. Because she is beginning to trust the newer me, and not always be worried I'm going to use what she says about her own feelings, against her.
> 
> There wasn't an affair in our split. TBH, she ran because i'd been a d*ck, for way too long, in our relationship. I own that.


Ok. Just trying to logically understand 

She left you because you were a **** to her. Probably for many years. 
She made the pretty big move to get a new home and sign a year lease. 

A. Why were you a ****? I am assuming she did or said things you really did not like. Irritated you. 

B. once back together, will these things no longer irritate you? Do you know this for sure? Similar to when 2 strangers meet they are on best behavior and not around each other much. Once you are with her 24 7 again, will the old issues quickly resurface?

C. Since she left, and she doesn't really have the chance to miss you, is it likely she will change herself to stop doing the thjngs that irritate you? Does she know what they are?

As an example, it would irritate me when my wife would be perpetually late. 

We had out court mandated parenting class today and she was 15 min late. Almost was not allowed to attend. 

So if we get along great a bit throughout the week and reconciled, would she cease being late? Would it no longer bother me?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Nucking Futs

marriedman321 said:


> Ok. Just trying to logically understand
> 
> She left you because you were a **** to her. Probably for many years.
> She made the pretty big move to get a new home and sign a year lease.
> 
> A. Why were you a ****? *I am assuming she did or said things you really did not like. Irritated you. *
> 
> B. once back together, will these things no longer irritate you? Do you know this for sure? Similar to when 2 strangers meet they are on best behavior and not around each other much. Once you are with her 24 7 again, will the old issues quickly resurface?
> 
> C. Since she left, and she doesn't really have the chance to miss you, is it likely she will change herself to stop doing the thjngs that irritate you? Does she know what they are?
> 
> As an example, it would irritate me when my wife would be perpetually late.
> 
> We had out court mandated parenting class today and she was 15 min late. Almost was not allowed to attend.
> 
> So if we get along great a bit throughout the week and reconciled, would she cease being late? Would it no longer bother me?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Not necessarily the case. She may have done nothing to irritate him, he may have been a **** because he took her for granted. 

By your logic, what have you been doing to make your wife want to irritate you by perpetually being late? I suspect the answer would be that you made her feel too safe in disrespecting you.


----------



## marriedman321

Nucking Futs said:


> Not necessarily the case. She may have done nothing to irritate him, he may have been a **** because he took her for granted.
> 
> By your logic, what have you been doing to make your wife want to irritate you by perpetually being late? I suspect the answer would be that you made her feel too safe in disrespecting you.


No,

Being late is just part of her.. I used today as an example, as being late wasn't disrespectful towards me, she just almost screwed herself by taking a day off of work, paying a sitter, and not even being able to take the course. So I would just have to deal with it, or she would have to change. 

Taking someone for granted isn't really the same as being a ****..


----------



## Nucking Futs

marriedman321 said:


> No,
> 
> Being late is just part of her.. I used today as an example, as being late wasn't disrespectful towards me, she just almost screwed herself by taking a day off of work, paying a sitter, and not even being able to take the course. So I would just have to deal with it, or she would have to change.
> 
> *Taking someone for granted isn't really the same as being a ****..*


That is a matter of opinion.

And yours is wrong. <-----Me being a ****.


----------



## DayOne

Sorry for not replying yet. Was having dinner, with waw. 



marriedman321 said:


> Ok. Just trying to logically understand
> 
> She left you because you were a **** to her. Probably for many years.
> She made the pretty big move to get a new home and sign a year lease.
> 
> A. Why were you a ****?
> 
> *I was an **** because I'd never addressed the basic issues of WHY I was an ****. Which is what i'm finally addressing now. Bear in mind I wasn't just an **** to waw. Everyone got the same treatment (but as she was closest to me, she got it worse). Because I refused to allow anyone to get close to me. Shields on maximum, 24/7/365. I now realising those shields have been in place since a very early age. Abuse, abandonment, humiliation, being physically bullied throughout school years, In and out of school. And hurt badly by the previous relationship I'd been in. By the time she got me, there wasn't a lot left. And the shields were rusted in place. Even when we made progress, it took very little for me to revert back to 'bunker mode' and fire volleys of stored up hate (read: pain) at anyone within range.*
> 
> B. I am assuming she did or said things you really did not like. Irritated you.
> *Of course she did. BUT... how many of those thing's ACTUALLY were intentionally or UNintentionally irritating? And much were me BEING irritated? In other words, was the 'irritation' real, or imagined? Was it a problem she'd caused, or was it a way of me just finding a way to get angry? *
> 
> Once back together, will these things no longer irritate you? Do you know this for sure? Similar to when 2 strangers meet they are on best behavior and not around each other much. Once you are with her 24/7 again, will the old issues quickly resurface?
> *We've spent more time together, and I mean together in the last few weeks than we have in years. But, because of the work i've done I'm able to talk to people better. To not always assume the worst. To not push them away in order to feel 'safe'. To not 'bunker down' in preparation for being hurt (which, I realise now, was usually more 'perceived' than actual). And that ability, that willingness to be open, to accept interaction with others. I'm rarely 'triggered; when talking to people. And when I am, i'm able to step back and consider why it happened instead of just react. And that comes across with her. She sees me as a different person, and as such she's more willing to be open with me. Which is much better than where we were. Both hiding in our bunker's, throwing volleys and sniping at each other.
> 
> Part of our conversation this evening was discussing how we're going to approach and resolve past issues that need to dealt with. And we were able to handle the fact that we're going to need to go through those issues, and neither of us were afraid of it *
> 
> 
> 
> C. Since she left, and she doesn't really have the chance to miss you, is it likely she will change herself to stop doing the things that irritate you? Does she know what they are?
> 
> *Some of them, yes. and versa vice. But we talk it through, explain why it irritates me (or her), and find a solution, or at least a workable alternative.*
> 
> As an example, it would irritate me when my wife would be perpetually late.
> 
> We had out court mandated parenting class today and she was 15 min late. Almost was not allowed to attend.
> 
> So if we get along great a bit throughout the week and reconciled, would she cease being late? Would it no longer bother me?
> *Have you talked to her about it? Or just get riled up about it? Have you clearly explained WHY it irritates you? Why was she late? *


----------



## marriedman321

DayOne said:


> Sorry for not replying yet. Was having dinner, with waw.


Makes sense. A lot of our triggers go back to our childhood or past. 

So while getting irritated with my ex would not necessarily her or my fault, she had a personality that would trigger it, while others I have dated did not. And she was also sensitive, so it would be blown out of proportion, while another women might have made a joke about it. 

I also wonder, how many things about myself I could realistically change at this point. If I can pretend she did not cheat, I wonder if the amount of work we would both need to do to "fit" with each other would have been possible or worth it. 

As for my ex, I do not want to reconcile but over the years I did tell her why it bothers me etc. Part of it might be cultural, and some people might just view time differently. At the time however I took it as disrespect or negligence. 

I guess another question would be do you think she is as invested as you? I mean you are posting often, improving yourself, analyzing etc. Do you wonder what she is thinking or have any clues?

And since she got her own place, how did that work? Did she buy furniture? Is she still buying more? Is she paying for everythjng herself? Is she Making her place into more of a long term home by continuing to buy thjngs?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DayOne

marriedman321 said:


> Makes sense. A lot of our triggers go back to our childhood or past.
> 
> *Yes. It's surprising just how much i'm finding from back then still affects me now.*
> 
> So while getting irritated with my ex would not necessarily her or my fault, she had a personality that would trigger it, while others I have dated did not. And she was also sensitive, so it would be blown out of proportion, while another women might have made a joke about it.
> 
> I also wonder, how many things about myself I could realistically change at this point. If I can pretend she did not cheat, I wonder if the amount of work we would both need to do to "fit" with each other would have been possible or worth it.
> 
> *I'd forgotten your W had cheated, apologies. But it does make me wonder if some of your irritation comes from the pain of being cheated on.*
> 
> As for my ex, I do not want to reconcile but over the years I did tell her why it bothers me etc. Part of it might be cultural, and some people might just view time differently. At the time however I took it as disrespect or negligence.
> 
> I guess another question would be do you think she is as invested as you? I mean you are posting often, improving yourself, analysing, etc. Do you wonder what she is thinking or have any clues?
> 
> *Yes, I know what she's thinking. We have very open and honest (but not heated) conversations about what we've been working on, what we'e thinking about. And although they separate paths, they are surprisingly similar. *
> 
> And since she got her own place, how did that work? Did she buy furniture? Is she still buying more? Is she paying for everything herself? Is she making her place into more of a long term home by continuing to buy things?
> 
> *When she moved out, she took a few bits of furniture from here. Our mattress, two side tables. She had a couple of wooden chairs from Mums stash in the attic, two dressers from youngest sons fiancées family. She's also having (when she gets around to picking them up) a couple of closets from our room (referenced above somewhere). The only thing she's bought is a couch (referenced above, somewhere) as she needed something better to sit on than wooden chairs. But apart from that, no she's not turning her place into a long term home. Her mattress is on the floor at her apt, as she didn't want the whole bed. In fact she's making a bed frame for it, herself. And actually I give her props for the deciding to do that. She, like me, has self esteem issues. Building her own furniture will be a confidence booster for her
> Yes, she's paying for everything herself, as am I. Separate accounts (yup, referenced above), separate incomes.*


----------



## jld

Does it feel lonely to have separate accounts?


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> Does it feel lonely to have separate accounts?


That's an odd question. Or at least an odd word to use. Can you help me understand? Thanks.


----------



## DayOne

BTW, She was here for dinner because one of our dogs is very ill. I picked dog up from the vets this evening, and waw was in the waiting room when I got there. She'd blown off her plans for the evening to be there for me. She supported me at the vets and came home with me, ordered and picked up dinner (chinese), and is taking the day off to get the dog to the specialist tomorrow (with Mum as the driver) as I can't get the time off. She really stepped up to the plate. And I made a big fuss of her for doing it.


----------



## marriedman321

DayOne said:


> BTW, She was here for dinner because one of our dogs is very ill. I picked dog up from the vets this evening, and waw was in the waiting room when I got there. She'd blown off her plans for the evening to be there for me. She supported me at the vets and came home with me, ordered and picked up dinner (chinese), and is taking the day off to get the dog to the specialist tomorrow (with Mum as the driver) as I can't get the time off. She really stepped up to the plate. And I made a big fuss of her for doing it.


Seem to be good signs. Is she emotional with the holidays approaching and being alone? Do you struggle with yourself on the best way to play this?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DayOne

marriedman321 said:


> Seem to be good signs. Is she emotional with the holidays approaching and being alone? Do you struggle with yourself on the best way to play this?


Funny you should mention this. One of the topics this evening was about Thanksgiving. As she's American, it's a big deal to her. But she's decided that as a) we're not together, b) Youngest son probably won't be around, and c) oldest son's pub is reopening that evening, so he won't be available (he's a manager), that instead of a traditional Thanksgiving, we go to the opening and have dinner there. 

I think it's a great idea. We don't have the pressure of having to sit round a Thanksgiving table, but we can still be together and see oldest son.


----------



## jld

DayOne said:


> That's an odd question. Or at least an odd word to use. Can you help me understand? Thanks.


Sorry, it just struck me that way when I read it. I guess I would feel alone if DH withdrew his money from mine. Keeping money together is another sign of trust, I think.


----------



## jld

I am American, married to a Frenchman. We lived in France and India, and did not celebrate Thanksgiving while abroad. We really just followed the local customs. 

I think even if we had tried to do Thanksgiving, it would not have felt the same. Part of the joy is knowing that it is a special day for everyone around you, too.


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> Sorry, it just struck me that way when I read it. I guess I would feel alone if DH withdrew his money from mine. Keeping money together is another sign of trust, I think.


There's trust over money with us. It was decided in the d-day planning that separate accounts would be better for both of us. However there is still some intermingling of our finances. For instance, her CC is paid via one of our joint accounts. So she pays money into that account from her separate account, then pays the CC with it. I see the transaction when i'm online, but I don't worry about it. While we've had issues with money, like being able to hold on to the damn stuff, we've never screwed each other over financially. 

waw offered, last night, to help out with the expense of the dogs treatment. So far i've been able to carry it, but today's consult, CT scan is going to be pricey. waw could easily have said "you're on your own", but chose to step up instead. I felt bad about that, but as she reminded me, I'd do the same if the situation was reversed.


----------



## DayOne

Putting myself out there (the Wintel overtime thing) has paid off, as i've been approached to get on the team!


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



DayOne said:


> Putting myself out there (the Wintel overtime thing) has paid off, as i've been approached to get on the team!


Excellent! Here's to.not letting an opportunity pass you by.


----------



## DayOne

Taking time off from the thread. One of my 'girls' (Dog, Collie X) has been diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumour and i've been dealing with that. Her time left is measured in weeks, if we're lucky, so my focus is now mainly on enjoying the time I have left with her.

waw has been there for me. Every step of the way as my support, my 'rock'. I couldn't have wished for a better friend at this time.


----------



## 2xloser

I'm so sorry about the pup. Glad she has you...


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Take care of sweet Bella. So sorry.... All my best to you and yours..


----------



## DayOne

Just a quick update: Bella is here, happy, but slowly going downhill. Still loves her walks, and her food, but getting unsteady on her feet and sleeping a lot. 

Rough time for me, but waw has been a real help. Always checking in on Bella and wanting to go out on our walks. I have long hours next week due a project starting and waw has offered to come and dog sit while i'm away. 

I'm getting back into the gym after some time off. Surprisingly stiff after the break, and fighting exhaustion after all that's been going on, but falling back into the routine. Just have to pick up the running again too.

As I mentioned, I put myself up for the project and was accepted. So will be doing 12+ hour days in London. Wasn't sure how it would work since the dog got sick, but she stepped up and helped me make it happen. I do need the overtime £££.

Back in counselling after her time off, and that's helping me. Counsellor has commented on how far i've come since we began, and asked if i wish to continue. I've said yes, at least until xmas and then we'll see.

waw and i continue to improve. Have had a couple of rough moments, but we've managed to work through them which is a vast improvement on our ability to interact before.


----------



## DayOne

waw texted me early this morning asking how I'm doing, and how the dogs are doing (it's become a daily 'thing' for her)

I asked her to be outside her apt in 5 mins.

She's interviewing, for her own job, today (restructuring at work) and is nervous. I'd talked her through it last night and given her advice on how to reduce the fear and increase her confidence by being herself, but still meeting the requirements of the interview. The help was well received and allayed her fears.

So this morning I dropped by the apt, met her outside, gave her a long hug. Then held her face in my hands, looked into her eyes and told her she'll be fine and I have faith in her.

It was pure coincidence that I was dressed to kill when I rolled up. Interdept video conference this morning, ties mandatory. So best shirt, best pants, clean shoes. 

I looked goood, and she liked it. A lot.

ZZ Top was right.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

:lol: that rocks!


----------



## DayOne

I also instructed her to call me right after the interview finished and let me know how it went. That I would pick up and answer her, no matter what I was doing.
She did, right in the middle of the video conference. So i left it and talked to her instead. #priorities


----------



## Blossom Leigh

That provides emotional security. Those kinds of intentions/priorities provides rich fertile ground for the deepest emotional intimacy. Excellent! I truly believe it takes a lifetime to love well and the ones who choose to mine the riches of deep emotional intimacy are the richest people on the planet. Very very wise to build the fertile ground for it!


----------



## DayOne

Random rambling thoughts:
Still find myself massively struggling with confidence, self esteem, being able to separate myself and stand strong. Especially when around waw. Get 'triggered' over stupid sh*t, but only because I let it. 

Cases in point, last evening I got to the restaurant where we were going to have T'day dinner. I'd dragged out my best suit and best shirt and dressed to impress. 

First thing waw said was "wow, that suit is way too big for you!".

Kinda pissed me off, that waw was finding fault, out of the gate. But she wasn't, she was right. I've lost a sh*tload of weight recently, and even more than I bought this suit a few years ago. At that time I was around 225, I'm now 193! The pants are a 36, and I'm now a 33 (maybe a 32). So of course the d*mn suit's going to hang on me. 

What she was doing, trying to do, was pay me a compliment. And I f'ed it up.

Later she mentioned that she's out this evening, out Saturday evening, out Monday evening and out Tuesday evening. After mentioning yesterday that she's feeling like she able to start coming out of her shell, to let her 'wild side' come out. 

I let this get to me. It shouldn't have. Heck, most of these 'nights out' are going to be with members of my family, with some of her friends. Girly nights out. 

Like me, waw suffers from self esteem issues, and being able to be around other people. It should be great that she's able to feel able to open up, enjoy life. 

But I got a pang of "oh sh*t, she's moving on". What I should have thought was "SO.THE.F.WHAT?!?!". But I didn't. I let it get to me.

And I acted distantly during the evening because of it. And wrestled with my thoughts after I got home.

But this morning I was able to wake up and try to get my head on a different track. It's her life now. What she does with it, in it, is up to her. We're separated. Her choices are her choices.

She's not pulling away. She comes up with plenty of reasons to be with be. I mentioned I'm going to see 'Fury', "Oo, can I come with you?". I mentioned I still have a gift card for a local restaurant, "Can I join you?" The gym is closed for refurb this weekend, so our Sunday workout is off, "Can I come with you and take the dogs for a walk instead?" 

Written as they are, they could seem like breadcrumbs. But the sense I get when waw is talking about wanting to be around me, is that she genuinely wants to be around me. To find reasons to be with me. 

Which, I think is in part why I struggle. If she wants to be that close, that often, why doesn't she want to move back in? But when i'm able to step back, get up to 50k', I see the truth in us staying separated. We've still only recently broken up after years, YEARS, of a miserable relationship. And, as much as we've turned things around, I'VE turned things around (remember, I was the d*ck who drove her away), the pain of our previous existence is still there. Getting back together, in the same place, would be a mistake. 

I do feel myself slipping, falling into the trap of thinking it's all OK now. She's been drawn to who i've become. Calmer, more confident, able to express myself, share with her, accept help, not as negative, and in better physical shape than I have been in years. She especially notices this, and comments on it all the time. 

Oldest boy left a pile of clothes, good clothes, at the house when he moved out. I've found that I can wear some of them. They fit me. I fit into the clothes of a 23 yo, i'm 47! 

So I should have taken the suit thing for what it was, a compliment. An affirmation that I'm doing well, and she likes what she see's. 

The physical is paying off. I have to now focus on the emotional, to build up my mental strength to match my new exterior.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I feel for the pain in those moments because it is not pleasant, but excellent that you are navigating them to a new level. 

with that said ..

"Take the time it takes so it takes less time." - Pat Parelli


----------



## DayOne

And she just called to tell me she got the job. Actually her words were "well, i'm a cr*p interviewee, but... I got the job".

I asked her to stop, and turn that sentence around. Instead of leading with a negative, to focus on the positive half. To give herself credit for what she achieved, not for what she thinks she failed on first. 

That if she did that, more often, she might begin to see just how amazing she is. To begin to see herself as I see her, as everyone else sees her. As SO much more than she thinks she is. 

(I think she cried a bit)


----------



## jld

D1, did she comment at all on that turning it around thing? I am just wondering if she liked it, or felt it was bossy. I could see it being taken either way.

And as always, congrats on your progress!


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> D1, did she comment at all on that turning it around thing? I am just wondering if she liked it, or felt it was bossy. I could see it being taken either way.
> 
> And as always, congrats on your progress!



She liked it. A lot.


----------



## jld

Glad to hear it, D1.


----------



## DayOne

Went through my oldest boys pile of unused clothes this morning. Was surprised how much of it fitted me. Some of the shirts and T-shirts are a little... snug. But that's a good thing. 

Then into town and threw some cash into more clothes. All of which fit my new shape a whole lot... better . #MAP


----------



## shellgames

Must be hard not knowing if she is stringing you along or really interested.


----------



## DayOne

shellgames said:


> Must be hard not knowing if she is stringing you along or really interested.


Yeah. Must be terrible...


----------



## jld

Shell games, did you accidentally post in the wrong thread? D1's wife is clearly interested in him.


----------



## shellgames

Oops, yes. Sorry


----------



## DayOne

Well, last night went... badly. I'd offered to drop off a bottle of wine at her apt the previous night so she could celebrate getting the job. She declined as she wanted a 'dry night' to start reading her self help book
As an alternative Waw wanted to get together, at 8 last evening.

I knew she was out with my Mum and sister, but didn't know when she'd be back, or what she would want to do. So I didn't organise anything, and kinda left it up to her. 

And waited, and waited. 

7:10 she texted to say "are we meeting up at the house tonight?" 

So I asked her "are you asking if you can over?"

She called me then, and it didn't go well. 

From my perspective, if she'd set a time, the onus would be on her to provide some sort of details as to what she wanted to do. Remember, I had no idea what her schedule was, whether she'd eaten, if she was tired from the day out, if she wanted to go out on the town, or have a quiet night here. So I left it with her. I made no plans. 

But she gave me nothing. Until the last minute. When she, by her text, assumed she was just going to come here. Without asking if I was OK with that. Don't forget, I've set one boundary, if she wants to come here, to ask first. To me it seemed like she was ignoring that. Again. 

For her part, she felt that she didn't need to set anything up. That I'd just be ready to do whatever, whenever she was ready. 

It didn't help that oldest son promised to come over and move his stuff. Again. And failed to call to follow through on that. Again. 

So I just ended up feeling let down, twice. 

We were finally able to talk it out on the phone, and admit our own faults and how we could have handled it better, but the night was blown. Which sucks as it should have been a great evening, celebrating her success. 

Today, however, was a better day. These are much more frequent than the 'bad' days.

Went for a run, then showered, shaved and met waw at hers and drove with her on a pre-arranged plan to walk the dogs. Like last time, i specifically picked out a route to allow for her bad legs. Mostly paved, and lesser used (ie not chewed up) trails. She appreciated the thought. 

I also picked the route as it was close to the diner i'd picked for breakfast. She'd brought a change of clothes to 'look nice' after hiking across muddy fields. As it turned out we had enough time after the walk that I offered that she come here and get changed first instead of in the back of the car. Something else she appreciated. 

We talked a bit more about last night, but as we'd already resolved it then, it was just reaffirming what was said. She did say that she was glad we'd had our 'first fight', because we'd both handled the resolution so well. Better than we've done before. And it showed her that we're making progress. That she can feel safer when conflict arises. 

We talked about the 'suit' emails. I brought it up because there were a couple of things in her reply that I was wondering about. She had said I didn't trust her, I asked why she'd written that. She felt that I didn't trust what she says. I replied that that is not the case. I do trust her, completely. But I don't trust myself. Part of which means that I don't trust myself to accept the positive things people say about me. That I struggle to believe that people see good things about me, because I would have to see it too. So I sometimes see the negative instead. My trust issues don't come from her, but from me. But sometimes I may seem like i'm not trusting, but if she feels like I don't, to call me on it and ask for understanding. Which will help me, and her. I think she understood that, and accepted my explanation. 

She wanted to know why I was worried about her going out more frequently now, and that I was making it all about me. That in the email I'd listed things that I wanted to do with her scratchhead. I stopped her and read out the email section regarding that. That in fact that list was things she'd said SHE wanted to do with me! I explained to her that I didn't have a problem with her going out... except that part of me was worried she was moving on, from me. In the same way she had seen my progress and previously remarked that she was worried I'd move on from her. She accepted that reasoning. 

She asked if we were 'going dutch' on the bill for breakfast. I said that would be a good idea. She replied that she didn't mind paying, as she'd like to do that, for me. I countered that if she really wanted to do that, it would be OK. Provided that we call it evens on the bottle of wine I bought for her to give to her colleague/neighbour the other night. She told me that she was going to pay me back for that. I asked her that we not 'keep score' over owing each other. At least not for nickel and dime things like that. That I'd been happy to do it for her. To be able to help her without thinking that she 'owed me'. 

I told her that 'keeping score' of who owed what to whom, who had hurt whom, and looking for 'payback' was an element of our old relationship, and one that I wanted not to repeat, going forward.

When we were here earlier, we had some smooching in the kitchen, then I said it was time I took her home... because if she stayed, I couldn't guarantee her safety . I was joking, but...

She hesitated, and I could see the wheels turning. Deciding if she wanted to cross that line. 

Before she could, I opened the back door and showed her out. 


Dropped waw at her house. Neither of us in a rush for her to get out of the car, so we passed the time doing something...much more pleasant than even MORE talking . She noticed that I had a... reaction to making out with her, and liked that I had. I told her that when I fantasise recently, it's been about her. Which it wasn't before, and hadn't been for a long time. She liked that news too.

She asked where I was off to now. I told her I was going to pick up wood for the firepit, as I still prefer to be out there in the evening than in the house as it gets too... quiet with no-one else there. She said her place gets too quiet for her as well. I told her that if she ever wants to be quiet together, she can call me.



Later today:
We went to watch the Main Street xmas lights get turned on. Spontaneous last minute suggestion by me, giving her no time to think about it....

She loved it. We've been every year (12) since we moved here. Stood in the crowd and enjoyed the band, waw was dancing to the music and laughing. She's right, she is coming out of her old self. It was good to see it. I made sure I told her that and complimented her for it. BTW, she is reading the book i suggested, and it's helping her.

We walked the length of Main Street after the lights went on to see them all. She would duck in behind me when the crowds got thick and let me lead her through them. I also got us hot chocolate for a cold evening. She offered to pay for hers, but I gave that "I'm your man, I'll be taking care of you" look. She folded.

I tried a 'bonus play' of It's a Wonderful Life back at mine, but she wants to see it nearer xmas (another tradition). No harm, no foul. The lighting idea was literally last minute. My neighbour mentioned it was on, about an hour before it started. So I rolled the dice on a 2nd 'date' (the dog walk and breakfast being the 1st). It came up 6's. And she loved it. The movie was an attempt at rolling the dice again. Snake eyes. But, I was able to roll with it, accept it and not feel rejected. No anger. And she saw that. 

Highly UNromantic, but we passed a store that was open so i grabbed a needed bag of frozen peas. 

HOWEVER, they came in useful later. After more smooching at the end of her block, I told her that i now needed the frozen peas. To reduce the swelling, and I placed them in the affected area...

She laughed.

The rollercoaster continues...


----------



## DayOne

shellgames said:


> Oops, yes. Sorry


No worries.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Frozen peas. :rofl:


----------



## just got it 55

DO I like where this is going

Frozen Peas Indeed

55


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Yea, that first time back together in intimacy is going to be off the hook!


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



Blossom Leigh said:


> Yea, that first time back together in intimacy is going to be off the hook!


This. It will be the best 15 seconds of your life. And hers.



Keep rocking the transparency bro. It is good to see things like this from y'all .


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> *Keep rocking the transparency bro.* It is good to see things like this from y'all .


:iagree:

I love the absence of victimhood in your posts, D1. You are an example to the men of TAM.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> This. It will be the best 15 seconds of your life. And hers.


It'll be a lot longer than that. There'll be guys from JPL on the evening news trying to explain why the planet has been knocked off it's axis...


----------



## DayOne

Cubby said:


> I don't know the backstory about you and your wife, but you might be interested in some cliches here on TAM that mostly turn out to be true regarding separation:
> 1. A woman usually doesn't choose to separate unless she has another man lined up. Like a monkey not letting go of one branch until it has a firm grip on another.
> 2. A woman pushes for separation so she can fook her affair partner free of guilt and away from husband.
> 3. The time I've spent on this forum, I don't think I've ever seen separation work out. Mostly it causes a couple to disconnect even more.



Could I be the first to prove you wrong, Cubby? Not there yet, but definitely on track.


----------



## LongWalk

There are many people who separate and divorce without cheating coming into play. That said a person who is psychologically moving on may cheat to break loose. Thus, the so-called exit affair phenomenon. It makes perfect selfish gene sense for a woman to seek a new man before leaving her established mate. One primary purpose of marriage was to prevent female infidelity. But since we live in the no-fault age, marriage is no longer an effective guard of chastity.

DayOne is doing a good job. He and his wife are dating. I think their deal during this separation is no seeing others. Eventually, if DayOne's wife won't sleep with him, he'll need to ask her if it is okay to date. She will then either "feel it" or it will be over.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks LW. Neither of us have 'moved on' to someone else. There's no 'deal'. Spoken or unspoken. And we're definitely 'dating'. A lot. Going to the gym together (again) this evening in fact.

But more importantly we're talking. A lot. More than I think we've ever done. Actually, it's mostly me. She's liking the fact that I can talk so honestly and openly about myself. She's expressed jealousy that I've been able to work so hard on myself and have already moved so far. 

Surprising comment from waw last evening. She's further behind in her self work than I am. But she finds our talks helpful, for her. My progress, ability to work on myself, and new strength is helping her to begin to find hers. That I'm providing her with courage.

However, she did say that she's not able to trust me. Yet. That the past, both hers and ours, still prevents her from being able to trust people. Me included. 

I told her that I get that. That I'm working hard to be a better man, and when she's ready, if she's ready, to give her trust to me, I'll be there to hold her hand and be that better man.

I asked her how the self help book I'd suggested was going. She said she's reading it, but finding it a struggle. I asked her if it's because she was afraid. She agreed.

I validated her fear, but said that she needs to go through it. That I see who she could be. That I wish she should see herself as I see her. An amazing woman with a lot of love inside her. That she needs to find it for herself. That I can't do it for her, i can't fix her. But I can be there to help her, as and when she needs it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

My H and I separated and dated too. Some very sweet moments and we are back together now


----------



## marriedman321

DayOne said:


> Random rambling thoughts:
> Still find myself massively struggling with confidence, self esteem, being able to separate myself and stand strong. Especially when around waw. Get 'triggered' over stupid sh*t, but only because I let it.
> 
> Cases in point, last evening I got to the restaurant where we were going to have T'day dinner. I'd dragged out my best suit and best shirt and dressed to impress.
> 
> First thing waw said was "wow, that suit is way too big for you!".
> 
> Kinda pissed me off, that waw was finding fault, out of the gate. But she wasn't, she was right. I've lost a sh*tload of weight recently, and even more than I bought this suit a few years ago. At that time I was around 225, I'm now 193! The pants are a 36, and I'm now a 33 (maybe a 32). So of course the d*mn suit's going to hang on me.
> 
> What she was doing, trying to do, was pay me a compliment. And I f'ed it up.
> 
> Later she mentioned that she's out this evening, out Saturday evening, out Monday evening and out Tuesday evening. After mentioning yesterday that she's feeling like she able to start coming out of her shell, to let her 'wild side' come out.
> 
> I let this get to me. It shouldn't have. Heck, most of these 'nights out' are going to be with members of my family, with some of her friends. Girly nights out.
> 
> Like me, waw suffers from self esteem issues, and being able to be around other people. It should be great that she's able to feel able to open up, enjoy life.
> 
> But I got a pang of "oh sh*t, she's moving on". What I should have thought was "SO.THE.F.WHAT?!?!". But I didn't. I let it get to me.
> 
> And I acted distantly during the evening because of it. And wrestled with my thoughts after I got home.
> 
> But this morning I was able to wake up and try to get my head on a different track. It's her life now. What she does with it, in it, is up to her. We're separated. Her choices .


 It's sort of what I asked before when I asked why you were a "di56". Once together again, are you able to overlook her way of communicating? The suit comment bugs you. Her wild side comment. Etc. 

I also think, in her own way, she is being very clear. In her mind she probably told you enough that you would know she is wanting to date or already is. She wouldn't say "wild side" and mean she is hanging out with family. She says she is going out often. Doesn't trust you. Doesn't really want to read the books you give her. Etc

It still seems you are a bit overbearing. Telling her she might be afraid to read the book. Correcting her speech when she said she is a poor interviewer. 
You are clearly still there for her. Letting her know you will drop what you are doing to wait for her call. 

I would think both of you would probably be better off with a break to see if you really want to be with the other person.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DayOne

An... interesting interpretation, MM321. My post was about taking things she said and turning them into something negative. It came from me. The "wild side", when I asked her about it meant that she's been able to come out of her shell. One she lived in before we met, and I unintentionally kept her in due to my anger. 

Most of the TAM 'burn victims' would be jumping up and down if they read that waw was getting a 'wild side'. But in this situation, there's no searching for an OM or ONS by her. Right now she's so damaged and withdrawn that she has zero interest in getting 'wild'. In a strange kind of way, part of me wishes she would, just so she could feel happy at least for a while. She just wants to feel better about herself than she does right now. She's on her own journey as well. Counselling, self help, gym ,etc.

If you haven't yet, start ploughing through Me'And'My'Girls thread. That's the closest thing i've found that resembles if my waw made a post here.

But it seems that she's seen me changing and has begun to like this new guy. And wants to be with me. She's attracted TO me.


----------



## farsidejunky

*Re: Re: Day One...*



DayOne said:


> An... interesting interpretation, MM321. "di56"? My post was about taking things she said and turning them into something negative. It came from me. The "wild side", when I asked her about it meant that she's been able to come out of her shell. One she lived in before we met, and I unintentionally kept her in due to my anger.
> 
> Most of the TAM 'burn victims' would be jumping up and down if they read that. But in this situation, there's no searching for an OM or ONS by her. Right now she's so damaged and withdrawn that she has zero interest in getting 'wild'. In a strange kind of way, part of me wishes she would, just so she could feel happy at least for a while. If you haven't yet, start ploughing through Me'And'My'Girls thread. That's the closest thing i've found that resembles if my waw made a post here.
> 
> But it seems that she's seen me changing and has begun to like this new guy. And wants to be with me. She's attracted TO me.


FWIW this is what I see as well.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks, Far.


----------



## marriedman321

DayOne said:


> An... interesting interpretation, MM321. My post was about taking things she said and turning them into something negative. It came from me. The "wild side", when I asked her about it meant that she's been able to come out of her shell. One she lived in before we met, and I unintentionally kept her in due to my anger.
> 
> Most of the TAM 'burn victims' would be jumping up and down if they read that waw was getting a 'wild side'. But in this situation, there's no searching for an OM or ONS by her. Right now she's so damaged and withdrawn that she has zero interest in getting 'wild'. In a strange kind of way, part of me wishes she would, just so she could feel happy at least for a while. She just wants to feel better about herself than she does right now. She's on her own journey as well. Counselling, self help, gym ,etc.
> 
> If you haven't yet, start ploughing through Me'And'My'Girls thread. That's the closest thing i've found that resembles if my waw made a post here.
> 
> But it seems that she's seen me changing and has begun to like this new guy. And wants to be with me. She's attracted TO me.


I guess what I mean is can you get used to her style of communication and just accept it without a second thought?

If I saw my wife dressed up, and I was in love, or wanted to be nice I would say "you look great" as opposed to your clothes are too big. I would say "yes I am finding myself" instead of "I feel my wild side coming out". Will you always have to think deeply about what she really means and turn it into somethjng you would rather hear? Or justify what she said so it is less hurtful?

Isn't love what we as humans seek most? It is a lot of trouble to go through an entire separation and totally close yourself off to all other people. What would be the point. Maybe she needs to see no better man is out there. Then she will know. Or she migt feel used and lousy after a ons. I mean once separated I wouldn't see the big issue if one dated.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DayOne

Hmm, you edited, MM321. So lets address:

*It still seems you are a bit overbearing. Telling her she might be afraid to read the book. Correcting her speech when she said she is a poor interviewer.*

I asked her if she was afraid because she had opened up to me and said the book was hard for her. No 'telling her'. Helping her find her feelings about why she felt afraid.. 

And I was not 'correcting her' when she said she was a poor interviewer. I simply asked her to look at it another way. To put the fact that she'd got the job in front of feeling the failure part first. To put the positive in front of the negative.

I'm very concious of being overbearing. Did it for years. And she would recognise it immediately and shut down. But she was able to see my comments for what they were.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

farsidejunky said:


> FWIW this is what I see as well.


Ditto


----------



## DayOne

marriedman321 said:


> *I guess what I mean is can you get used to her style of communication and just accept it without a second thought?*
> 
> What I need to get used to is NOT imagining negatives. waw paid me a compliment and I went the wrong way with it.
> 
> *If I saw my wife dressed up, and I was in love, or wanted to be nice I would say "you look great" as opposed to your clothes are too big. I would say "yes I am finding myself" instead of "I feel my wild side coming out". Will you always have to think deeply about what she really means and turn it into somethjng you would rather hear? Or justify what she said so it is less hurtful?*
> 
> Again, I reacted to what I 'heard' her say, not what she said. I honestly think you're looking for something that's not there.
> 
> *Isn't love what we as humans seek most? It is a lot of trouble to go through an entire separation and totally close yourself off to all other people. What would be the point. Maybe she needs to see no better man is out there. Then she will know. Or she might feel used and lousy after a ons. I mean once separated I wouldn't see the big issue if one dated.*
> 
> And that's your moral 'code'. For me, I won't stray outside of my marriage until i'm no longer married. Separated is still married, to me. And she feels the same. Saying that, it's a good question. I will put it to her this evening, at the gym.


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ditto


Thanks, BL.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I believe separation is just to give space, not to invite others in to complicate the situation.


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> I believe separation is just to give space, not to invite others in to complicate the situation.


In our case, yes. If the relationship is done, dead and buried and both parties agree that that's the case perhaps it would be different. But ours (so far), isn't. Damaged, bleeding, and bruised. But not dead.


----------



## marriedman321

DayOne said:


> Hmm, you edited, MM321. So lets address:
> 
> *It still seems you are a bit overbearing. Telling her she might be afraid to read the book. Correcting her speech when she said she is a poor interviewer.*
> 
> I asked her if she was afraid because she had opened up to me and said the book was hard for her. No 'telling her'. Helping her find her feelings about why she felt afraid..
> 
> And I was not 'correcting her' when she said she was a poor interviewer. I simply asked her to look at it another way. To put the fact that she'd got the job in front of feeling the failure part first. To put the positive in front of the negative.
> 
> I'm very concious of being overbearing. Did it for years. And she would recognise it immediately and shut down. But she was able to see my comments for what they were.


We all think based on our experiences. As for me an affair occurred and I was done. So it was cut and dry , simply move on. 

I can now see more clearly than if the door was half open. 

Recently she had to drop off my car as Stated in the divorce settlement. She said she would drop it on a Friday morning and I drive her home. 

Friday morning she said she wants to take a cab. I said that's fine. Then she said she will drop it a different day. Then I would say I thought it was planned for today. Then she would say she never said that. Etx. 

Point is if the door was half open I would be irritated, trying to look past it , trying I make excuses for her etc. But I can look back clearly and see that's why I was always irritated. 

I can also notice that she chose to by a used land rover that she can't afford. Not my problem anymore but it would have been in the past. Since the cords are cut I can see clearly it wasn't a great relationship. If I was hanging onto hope I would still be in a fog and partially blaming myself.

Question is, if you live with her again, can you guarantee you won't be a **** within a matter of days?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DayOne

As I said above, i'll ask waw if she wants to see if the grass is greener, but I think I know her response. She's not interested in looking in looking for 'love' on some random guys d*ck. Or an 'overnight meaningful relationship' (ONS). Because, in part she. like me, is learning to love herself first.


----------



## DayOne

marriedman321 said:


> Question is, if you live with her again, can you guarantee you won't be a **** within a matter of days?


No. I can't. At least not yet. I've changed, a lot. But still live in fear of the old me. As does waw. For good reason. 

But in our very frequent interactions recently, I've been the new guy. 95% consistently. And the 5% where the spectre of the old guy has appeared, I've been able to kick his a$$ and use new guy thinking to resolve a situation.

waw's attraction to the new guy is because she see's how hard i'm working, how far I've improved. And because she see's me have old guy moments, but then deal with them. Being with waw allows me to see the times when the old guy might be around, I can see it in her eyes. And it helps me understand the feeling i'm having when she suddenly looks scared. And act ON that feeling.

She finds reasons to be with the new guy, texts me almost daily for no real reason, likes it when I suggest ways to extend our times together. She WANTS to be around this guy. If she was going to stray on her husband (the guy she had grown to fear and hate), it's quite likely to be with the new guy. And that's fine with me. 

But. Even if this all comes crashing down, and we don't make it. I still have to live with me. And maybe, if it comes to it, there may be someone else who lives with me. It's vitally important to ME that I won't be d*ck again. In a matter of days, weeks or years.


----------



## DayOne

FWIW, it's really hard to respect her request that we don't make out every time we meet up, when she 'attacks' me... every time we meet up!  (happened again this evening)


----------



## Blossom Leigh

haha! cool!

I swear... there were a couple of times my H did that to me when we were dating and it just lit me up.


----------



## marriedman321

DayOne said:


> And that's your moral 'code'. For me, I won't stray outside of my marriage until i'm no longer married. Separated is still married, to me. And she feels the same. Saying that, it's a good question. I will put it to her this evening, at the gym.



Well, in this case I think it has little to do with any moral "code". The fact that is she left you, you want to keep her, so you don't feel like dating. I don't think that makes you morally superior to her if she does go on a date. Now if you had many women throwing themselves at you, and you felt like dating them, and were mentally ready to, but did not because of your marriage certificate, then I will applaud your morality. 


She probably mentally moved on years before she physically moved out, so she is further ahead in the process. 

Secondly, it can already be considered "immoral" to be married and to live in separate dwellings.. I am not religious, but the bible speaks on this.. Arguing/fighting/working on problems is not a reason to separate financially and live in different homes. That's not typically how marriages are fixed. 

The reason is because the person who left finally has a bit of peace. What incentive do they have to "work" on themselves? They are finally at peace. So no, she isn't totally happy, but she is also not totally miserable all the time either. She has you when she wants, and she has her peace when she wants. In my opinion, it's not really fair or moral to do that in a marriage to your partner either. (especially while mentioning anything close to finding your wild side or going out nightly)

The above would be the big immoral deal breaker for me. Leaving your partner and setting up a new life.. Going on a date after the fact would be of much less significance to me.


----------



## DayOne

I've got this weekend 'off', as she's not going to be around. Out last night with her yoga class. Up to London today for a dance show with her work colleagues, then off to my Brothers with Mum and Sister for the day tomorrow! I've asked her to be careful as she had a cortisone shot in her foot this morning (neuritis). She liked that I cared.

But i'm taking the weekend and using it to catch up, on me. Ordered Hold On To Your N.U.T.S, Printed out the Five Steps questionnaire, commited to sit down and work on NMMNG's BFE exercises, and started on WorkingAtIt's OP . A lot of good stuff in there. A positive thread (rare on TAM!) about separation and how to heal. Tron posted some very insightful stuff, that i'm soaking up. I'm also going to look into social groups in the area, as I realised i need to get out more, meet people, socialise. And I'm going to see if I can still get into the company xmas party. I'd declined, but have since realised my reasons were.... old guy.

waw did invite me out for coffee this am, after her shot, but I already had plans. Help Mum put up her 7' tree, picked up a pile of firewood, took the girls out for a walk. Bella wasn't into it, and didn't eat breakfast. I have a vet appt for her later today. I'm not sure she'll see xmas. Which is obviously bumming me out, but i'm focussing on the extra time we've been given. waw was sad she couldn't go to the vets with us. She wants to be 'there', for me, and for Bella.

Which raises a question. If, IF, the vet decides 'it's time', do i call waw and let her know as she'd drop her plans and come running? Or do I hold off, deal with it myself, and tell her after she's had a good weekend, living life? I'm pretty sure she'd be pi$$ed if I didn't let her know though.


----------



## farsidejunky

You tell her what you are about to do and give her the choice, brother. No question.


----------



## DayOne

Regretfully, I had to end Bella's suffering this evening. She'd reached a point where she was ready to go and her quality of life had diminished. She's no longer in pain. 

She passed away peacefully, cradled in my lap, head in my arms.


She's home right now. Tomorrow I will bury her beside one of our favourite local walks.

I did tell waw. She's coming by later, and going with me to bury Bella tomorrow.


----------



## HobbesTheTiger

I'm sorry for your loss. It was the right thing to do. She went away peacefully, feeling safe with you around.


----------



## DayOne

Sh*tty morning, obviously. But waw was an absolute gem. Came with me to bury Bella, helped me dig the hole, held me when I cried, I held her when she cried. 

Afterwards we went out for lunch, at oldest boy's place, then spent the afternoon here cuddled up watching cr*p mindless TV and making each other laugh. And that's all we both needed. 

So, Bella's last gift to us was to bring us even closer. Thank you Bella.


----------



## farsidejunky

Bittersweet. 

Keep it up, D1.


----------



## Faithful123

So sorry about Bella D1, wonderful memories. I hope you're progressing OK, I may not comment much but I am watching your progress, keep it up my friend.


----------



## DayOne

No major updates. Haven't been to the gym this week, but have been swimming and walking the (remaining) dog . After all that's been happening I felt I just needed some time out. 

Had the office party on Tuesday. Wasn't going to go, but needed to get out and socialise. Had a good time, which was a first time i've enjoyed the xmas party, probably because i made the effort to enjoy it. Stayed until people got drunk and raucous. 

Waw and I communicate every day. Either in person, by text or phone. Taking her on our first 'official', proper date on Sunday. But also out to dinner this evening. We had made plans to hang out with other friends, but both hers and mine had to cancel. So now waw and I are each others 'plan b's' this evening!


----------



## DayOne

Had our first official 'date' last night. Shirt, tie, polished shoes, red rose, French restaurant, the whole 9 yards. Went very well. waw had gone out of her way to make herself look extra good, and it showed. I made sure she knew i'd noticed. Definitely a new connection between us, and a new relationship. One that we both like.

I've pulled back somewhat though, as I was making the mistake of getting ahead of myself, emotionally. But I've made it clear to waw why I'm doing this, and that I'm not pulling away from her, but rather back towards me. So I can get centred again, and not forget myself. Also, waw isn't as far along her own road as I seem to be, so it's also giving her time to catch up, if she chooses to do so (and so I'm better able to deal with it if she doesn't).

She's asked to spend the night here xmas eve into xmas day. I'd previously made the offer, but then left it there for her to accept (or not). She did.


----------



## DayOne

In other news the book i'd ordered, "Hold on to your N.U.T.S", finally got delivered. Thanks, FarSideJunky for the recommendation. 

There goes the rest of my work day.


----------



## DayOne

Just dropping by to update. Overall a good week. Had my PDR (employee review). All green, across the board. Much improved attitude and no further complaints from co-workers & users. Should be eligible for a pay raise and bonus based on the PDR. The much promised overtime is finally kicking in, so I will be able to put something aside and start saving instead of just spending. 

Oh, and I won the office xmas raffle. A healthy amount of gift tokens that I'll use to to update my wardrobe.

Still hitting the gym, going to talk to a PT about switching to free weights from machines in the new year. Stabilised at around 192lbs, but definitely changing shape, in a good way.

waw and I continue to improve. Have an occasional down day, but I'm getting better at working through my triggers and what I'm feeling. We're much MUCH better at talking through any speedbumps, and have not, as yet, left any issues unresolved. Any that have come up are typically due to bad or incomplete communication and we recognise that and resolve it.

I invited waw to spend xmas eve at my house, she'd accepted. And now she has asked if she can stay over on xmas night too.


----------



## Suspecting2014

DayOne said:


> Just dropping by to update. Overall a good week. Had my PDR (employee review). All green, across the board. Much improved attitude and no further complaints from co-workers & users. Should be eligible for a pay raise and bonus based on the PDR. The much promised overtime is finally kicking in, so I will be able to put something aside and start saving instead of just spending.
> 
> Oh, and I won the office xmas raffle. A healthy amount of gift tokens that I'll use to to update my wardrobe.
> 
> Still hitting the gym, going to talk to a PT about switching to free weights from machines in the new year. Stabilised at around 192lbs, but definitely changing shape, in a good way.
> 
> waw and I continue to improve. Have an occasional down day, but I'm getting better at working through my triggers and what I'm feeling. We're much MUCH better at talking through any speedbumps, and have not, as yet, left any issues unresolved. Any that have come up are typically due to bad or incomplete communication and we recognise that and resolve it.
> 
> I invited waw to spend xmas eve at my house, she'd accepted. And now she has asked if she can stay over on xmas night too.


:smthumbup:


----------



## DayOne

Xmas update. 

Dropped waw at home earlier this evening. It's been a great couple of days. 

xmas eve here, just being together. At the end of which she initiated, very strongly. And yes the ground did move. And it did again the following morning. IIRC, this is the first time(s) we've made love in getting on for a year. 

We're definitely getting closer emotionally too. Apart from 2 or 3 occasions we've been a regular couple of honeymooners. There were a couple of particular 'discussions' caused by triggers during the last 48 hours, but we talked our way right through them and dispelled the tension that usually would have lead into a fight within a few minutes. The rest of the 48 hours was all good. I mean really good. As in she wanted to come back here again this evening good. 

But I declined, although I was quick to explain why. We'd really connected in our time together, and neither of us wanted it to end. However, we'd agreed on a time limit (2 nights) and we had to honour that boundary. If we didn't, it would have led to confusion, frustration due to no clear boundaries, and later 'discussion' over who breached what. But again, we agreed, worked things through and parted on a high note. It's difficult to explain to anyone not in our particular situation, but the space is a good thing. We both need to work on ourselves, and enjoy the positive results it's having on our relationship. The space allows the growth and the healing to happen. And although we both hate it, we both agree that this current setup is having results that neither of us could have dreamed about.

I think that's kinda the highlights. If I think of more, I'll add them.

I think it's time to move this thread to the reconciliation section.


----------



## farsidejunky

DayOne said:


> Xmas update.
> 
> Dropped waw at home earlier this evening. It's been a great couple of days.
> 
> xmas eve here, just being together. At the end of which she initiated, very strongly. And yes the ground did move. And it did again the following morning. IIRC, this is the first time(s) we've made love in getting on for a year.
> 
> We're definitely getting closer emotionally too. Apart from 2 or 3 occasions we've been a regular couple of honeymooners. There were a couple of particular 'discussions' caused by triggers during the last 48 hours, but we talked our way right through them and dispelled the tension that usually would have lead into a fight within a few minutes. The rest of the 48 hours was all good. I mean really good. As in she wanted to come back here again this evening good.
> 
> But I declined, although I was quick to explain why. We'd really connected in our time together, and neither of us wanted it to end. However, we'd agreed on a time limit (2 nights) and we had to honour that boundary. If we didn't, it would have led to confusion, frustration due to no clear boundaries, and later 'discussion' over who breached what. But again, we agreed, worked things through and parted on a high note. It's difficult to explain to anyone not in our particular situation, but the space is a good thing. We both need to work on ourselves, and enjoy the positive results it's having on our relationship. The space allows the growth and the healing to happen. And although we both hate it, we both agree that this current setup is having results that neither of us could have dreamed about.
> 
> I think that's kinda the highlights. If I think of more, I'll add them.
> 
> I think it's time to move this thread to the reconciliation section.


A like doesn't do your progress justice, brother.

You have come so far.


----------



## DayOne

Back to the 24/7 gym this morning. Only to find it didn't reopen till 10. Fortunately I got there at 9:50. Felt REALLY bad for the guy who'd been standing outside, in shorts and a long sleeved T since 9:30! Its just a shade above freezing here, with a strong north wind...

Workout done, stopped by the mall to blow my xmas vouchers. 1/2 price sales, so wardrobe has been increased, a lot. I now have clothes that fit me better since the weight loss, And they're more stylish than my old clobber. Definitely 'looking sharp'. 

Xmas #2 later today as the rest of my family are in town.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> A like doesn't due your progress justice, brother.
> 
> You have come so far.



Thanks, Far. I have a good mentor.


----------



## farsidejunky

DayOne said:


> Thanks, Far. I have a good mentor.


Agreed. I think a lot of Longwalk as well.


----------



## LongWalk

All I do is copy paste those who were here before me.


----------



## just got it 55

LongWalk said:


> All I do is copy paste those who were here before me.


Not so LW you do masterful work here

and FSJ is a rising star

Your in good Hands DO

55


----------



## jld

just got it 55 said:


> FSJ is a rising star


:iagree: 

And D1's honesty, openness, and willingness to take responsibility for his own actions are going to make him one, too.


----------



## DayOne

Family Xmas #3. Spending the day with my (so called) adopted Dad and his wife, along with waw, my sister and brother and various nieces. 

Poor old fella is completely checked out, mentally (alzheimers). No longer knows who anyone is. No great loss to me, as I gave up on him years ago, but my sister (biologically his) needs my support, so I'm here for her. 

All a bit sad really, seeing a ghost, a memory of a person trapped inside an empty shell.


----------



## DayOne

NYE sorted as well. We were going to oldest son's bar, for a 1920's themed night, until he got laid off on the 23rd.  Obviously we're not going to support the bar that sh*t canned him, so I found us an alternate venue for NYE (another local bar that will have mutual friends). 

waw was bummed that she didn't get to dress up all fancy (had her 20's outfit all figured out), so I've told her I will find another dressed up occasion and take her there, in the new year. 

Interestingly waw wants to invite her neighbour/work colleague/confidant/friend to join us at the party. For some reason she really wants to show her friend this 'new man' she's so happy with. 

And waw is going to sleep over, here, after the party. I'd invited, she accepted. 

I think we're becoming the least separated separated couple I've ever heard of.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Agreed. I think a lot of Longwalk as well.



 Take the damn credit, Far. It's due.


----------



## farsidejunky

DayOne said:


> I think we're becoming the least separated separated couple I've ever heard of.


:rofl:

Love it!


----------



## DayOne

Was supposed to meet Wife to go to the gym last evening. I almost cancelled as I'm coming down with flu. Met her only to find out she's worse than I am! But she didn't want to not see me. 

So I brought her back here, swaddled her up in blankets, made dinner and put White Christmas on the TV. Dosed her up with Nyquil, told her she's not going back out in the cold, but would stay here the night instead so I can take care of her. No arguing about that allowed.

Dropped back at her apt this morning on my way to work. 

Not much up an update really, except that it felt good that she wanted to be with me (at the gym) rather than stay home, and felt secure enough to allow me to take her to my house and take care of her for the night. She wasn't scared of me. That's an improvement.


----------



## Johnconrad

DayOne said:


> Was supposed to meet Wife to go to the gym last evening. I almost cancelled as I'm coming down with flu. Met her only to find out she's worse than I am! But she didn't want to not see me.
> 
> So I brought her back here, swaddled her up in blankets, made dinner and put White Christmas on the TV. Dosed her up with Nyquil, told her she's not going back out in the cold, but would stay here the night instead so I can take care of her. No arguing about that allowed.
> 
> Dropped back at her apt this morning on my way to work.
> 
> Not much up an update really, except that it felt good that she wanted to be with me (at the gym) rather than stay home, and felt secure enough to allow me to take her to my house and take care of her for the night. She wasn't scared of me. That's an improvement.


More importantly, it was leadership.

Good man.


----------



## DayOne

Happy New Year! Certainly was here anyway. Great evening with friends then back here. Both of us. 

This morning's 'celebrations' cut short as oldest son arrived home. So we got dressed and started to make breakfast instead.

But then he left again, so I told her "Hey you, back upstairs, lets finish what we started". So we did.


----------



## Johnconrad

DayOne said:


> Happy New Year! Certainly was here anyway. Great evening with friends then back here. Both of us.
> 
> This morning's 'celebrations' cut short as oldest son arrived home. So we got dressed and started to make breakfast instead.
> 
> But then he left again, so I told her "Hey you, back upstairs, lets finish what we started". So we did.


She wants you to lead. She's likely wanted it all along.


----------



## DayOne

Johnconrad said:


> She wants you to lead. She's likely wanted it all along.


I think there's something to that. However, part of my (our) recovery is for me to learn to be in control, without being controlling. 

It's not easy for either of us. I constantly have to be alert for 'pushing' and she is on a hair trigger for my old behaviour. 

We've had a few instances of both (pushing and triggering), but we've so far been able to talk it out. 

Baby steps.


----------



## just got it 55

DayOne said:


> I think there's something to that. However, part of my (our) recovery is for me to learn to be in control, without being controlling.
> 
> It's not easy for either of us. I constantly have to be alert for 'pushing' and she is on a hair trigger for my old behaviour.
> 
> We've had a few instances of both (pushing and triggering), but we've so far been able to talk it out.
> 
> Baby steps.


DO this is exactly what she wants You being a man and taking the lead (See David Deida _*The way of the Superior Man*_) 

This is exactly how I saved my marriage before it got to the point you faced.I believed for years that my wife would walk away.

But I turned that around with wonderful results.My wife was just waiting for me to pull my head out of my a$$.

She should have walked. I am a very lucky man.

What you have accomplished is much harder If my wife had got to the walk away point it would be too late I knew this

55.


----------



## DayOne

I've read Dieda. A good book (though perhaps his style of writing is a little "sound bite/fortune cookie" for me), and applied some of his principles.

I got thisclose to leaving it too late. Wife had to leave as she couldn't take my problems any more. Fortunately I also extracted my head from my rear end and decided enough was enough. But not for her. The extraction was for me. I had to save myself, from myself. 

But as I'm changing, becoming the Man I need to be, she is falling for me again. Anew. Which I'm enjoying, but not because she's gradually trusting who I am, but because I am gradually trusting who I'm becoming. 

I had no expectations of "winning her back". TBH, I thought we were done. That she was done. But I guess I'm lucky, in that she loved me enough to still have waited for me. 

She is my gift.


----------



## Johnconrad

DayOne said:


> I think there's something to that. However, part of my (our) recovery is for me to learn to be in control, without being controlling.
> 
> It's not easy for either of us. I constantly have to be alert for 'pushing' and she is on a hair trigger for my old behaviour.
> 
> We've had a few instances of both (pushing and triggering), but we've so far been able to talk it out.
> 
> Baby steps.


Keep in mind that a rule of thumb I've found true is the following:

For every year you've stunk up the joint, it takes 3 months of the new dynamic to erase it. Patience is a virtue - but ONLY when you're on the right road.

I'll share a bit from my morning to illustrate. I got up early to charge my phone, take care of a bit of nausea, etc. manage some papers in the basement office.

My wife was taking her youngest daughter to a church meeting about a social work project. I've mentioned issues about stepchildren that I won't go into here, but I have seen when my wife has something going with her kids, she gets "forgetful" (read de-prioritizes) her husband. I learned long ago that this behavior is "putting me in my place" - and it may even be subconscious on her part. Yet, it is not acceptable.

So, with that as the backdrop, I went back up to our room. She asked where I'd been, as her alarm was going off. Said she was too tired to get up. I invited her to stay right where she was and made a few jokes regarding an alarm that often gets us laughing into a round of morning sex - which I clearly wanted.

I had my hands on her, you get the idea.

Her alarm goes off again and without a word, she gets up. I wanted to figure out if it was a potty break - she made it clear she was up for the day.

I silently got up and started getting dressed. She started a conversation. I told her I wasn't in the mood for any kind of discussion. And, that I was awestruck by "the" indifference.

Notice, I didn't say YOUR indifference.

I got my clothes on and left the house. I have a diner I'll walk to for exercise and breakfast. She starts texting. I made it clear that our plans for the morning were cancelled, as I had much to think about. She asked what....

Again, wait until they ask.

I typed back... I didn't even get the courtesy of a no.

This prompted a torrent of explanation and 5 alarm worry about how long it would be before I speak to her again... was she to be punished. Contained in the text was that she was really off her game and distracted (think, stepdaughter commitment) and that she didn't know what was going on... completely missed it.

My response?

"Date tonight"

I got back, "ok"

You have no idea how long it took us to get to this place. How much work and angst. It's totally worth it, but you both have to want it. And, you really have to know each other. You get to know each other by observing what the other person DOES... and ignoring much of what they say.


----------



## Kevinb

Well, I've read through your whole post D1 and it's so nice to see a story unfold for the better. I wish you the best of luck and hope that maybe sometime in the future I may be in the same place as you are....probability is low...but I still hope.
Good Luck
Kev


----------



## DayOne

Another good day. Nothing earth shattering, just spending (most of) the day together. Getting stuff done, and talking. 

She'd asked me to help move the closets to her apt as she hadn't been able to sort out transportation herself, and she has no clothes storage to speak of. All her stuff is on the floor. (recap: she needed closet's, we have unused ones here, i'd offered them so she didn't have to buy new ones)

This is kind of a big deal, as after D-Day she'd been clear that she didn't want me at the apt. "Her space to heal". But now she was willing to let me in. Which, obviously, means she is "letting me in", again. Emotionally. She feels safe enough to have me in her space. 

However, I only felt comfortable enough to get as far as the front door. No amount of "manning up" could get me across that threshold. 

Fortunately I'd already broken the closets down, so I brought the pieces from the car and she carried them up her stairs (1 flight). She's smart enough and handy enough to put them back together, and I'd already marked "Tab A", "slot B", etc with decals. 

After that I took her to the outdoors store so she could buy new hiking shoes. Kind of another big deal due to our previous hiking 'issues' (she's slow, i'm fast, i'd leave her behind. A 'theme' she felt applied to our previous relationship). So, to me, it seemed like she is moving on from those previous mistakes (read:screw ups on my part).

Following that, onto the next job. She'd bought a 'live' (ie; potted) xmas tree for us. Now xmas is over we weren't sure where to plant it. Until we had the idea of putting it near Bella's grave, in the woods where she rests. So we went together and did that. 

We had a bit of a 'moment' together, over the loss of our dog, then she took me to lunch to say thank you for helping with the closets and taking her to the hiking store. 

Stuffed with lunch and tired we drove back home. Had a few potentially triggering moments during the day, but we resolved them very quickly. No escalations anymore. A big step forward that is becoming more commonplace and easier, for both of us.

On the way home she was touching me in a way that I had to tell her "if you don't quit that I'm going to drive right past your apt and take you to my place!" Reluctantly she did stop. But I think she would have been fine to have been 'kidnapped' too. 


Little bit of mutual sexting and joking around this evening after she texted me "missing you", but left it at that. A booty call would have been a LOT of fun, but I'm in this for the long game.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks for the post, JC. Definitely helpful and something i'm working on.


----------



## Johnconrad

When we were separated, my wife asked me to come and help her with the internet.

My response?

Not interested.


----------



## DayOne

Johnconrad said:


> When we were separated, my wife asked me to come and help her with the internet.
> 
> My response?
> 
> Not interested.


And how did that work out?


----------



## Johnconrad

DayOne said:


> And how did that work out?


She's back.

Be careful with relationship comfort. She is leaving you.

She's no longer entitled to your beta providing of comfort - lifting heavy things, making stuff go.

Part of getting her back is her "missing" that comfort.

She won't be missing it if you're still providing it.

Have something else going next time.

Be interesting - and attractive.


----------



## DayOne

Appreciate what you're saying, though I don't agree with it, in our situation. In the case of those closets, they sat for weeks in my garage after we agreed she could take them. I refused to move them for her. That she would have to sort it out herself. She tried, and failed. When she finally came to me, it was genuinely because she knew she couldn't do it without my help. Far from being 'beta', it put me as 'alpha'. 

There's a lot i don't help with. I struggled with that at the beginning, but I'm finding it easier now.

FWIW, she isn't leaving me. She left me. And now, she is slowly come back.


----------



## MEM2020

This type of brutally honest self assessment is what's needed to fix a broken marriage. 

I love that your focus is on what YOU were doing wrong. 






DayOne said:


> Thanks for the reply. Yes, a lot of positive came from it. If our future discussions can be done in the same way, it will help us both. Too much of the past ended up in arguing, screaming and unresolved issues (avoidance).
> 
> As i said before, i don't know whether there is a future for us, and i made that clear yesterday. But i will treat any improvement in the way i treat and work with my current (ex)partner as lessons for any future relationships.
> 
> Yes, the booze was an issue. But it appears that as we have both moved out of what is the very definition of a toxic relationship, we have also moved on from the destructive coping method we had both sunk into. (alcohol). If i find it becomes a coping mechanism again, i will seek help.
> 
> Her weight issue is a problem. She has bad knees (arthitis), brought on in part, i'm sure from the extra 50+ lbs. However, part of the weight issue is due to depression. As i said before i did not deal with helping her at all well. In fact, very negatively, no matter how much i convinced myself otherwise at the time. Bad diet, no exercise, booze, and a negative husband. Not a good combo.
> 
> Another example of my making the wrong choice: I walk, hike. A lot! (over 500 miles a year). I would try and get her to come with me, occasionally. But then get pissed off if she didn't do as i'd asked.
> 
> She signed up with a gym a short while back, and invited me to go with as a training partner. Unfortunately i took my anger at her not walking with me (aka doing what *I* wanted) and refused to do what she wanted.
> 
> Dumb, dumb, dumb.
> 
> I've held off on joining a gym until my finances are more stable (though I've taken up running and swimming as well as the walking), but i will sign up this week.
> 
> 
> I've taken the money from the car i sold on Saturday and put it to one side to cover counselling. My employer does offer limited counselling, but have totally failed in getting back to me to set it up.


----------



## Johnconrad

DayOne said:


> Appreciate what you're saying, though I don't agree with it, in our situation. In the case of those closets, they sat for weeks in my garage after we agreed she could take them. I refused to move them for her. That she would have to sort it out herself. She tried, and failed. When she finally came to me, it was genuinely because she knew she couldn't do it without my help. Far from being 'beta', it put me as 'alpha'.
> 
> There's a lot i don't help with. I struggled with that at the beginning, but I'm finding it easier now.
> 
> FWIW, she isn't leaving me. She left me. And now, she is slowly come back.


She is moving into her own place.

Don't be delusional. That means she's "leaving"

If she weren't leaving, she'd by "staying".

Yet, I'd be remiss by not echoing MEM's observation.

Brutal honesty is important... both about you AND her.

Believe what you see - and nothing more.


----------



## jld

MEM11363 said:


> This type of brutally honest self assessment is what's needed to fix a broken marriage.
> 
> *I love that your focus is on what YOU were doing wrong.*


I would like to put an infinity of likes on this, please.


----------



## MEM2020

Now the post below - that is true genius. 

A man totally focused on helping his wife be the best person she can be. Not for him, for her. 

And because it's all about her, there is no impatience, irritation or disappointment. Just love and support and kindness. 




DayOne said:


> Thanks LW. Neither of us have 'moved on' to someone else. There's no 'deal'. Spoken or unspoken. And we're definitely 'dating'. A lot. Going to the gym together (again) this evening in fact.
> 
> But more importantly we're talking. A lot. More than I think we've ever done. Actually, it's mostly me. She's liking the fact that I can talk so honestly and openly about myself. She's expressed jealousy that I've been able to work so hard on myself and have already moved so far.
> 
> Surprising comment from waw last evening. She's further behind in her self work than I am. But she finds our talks helpful, for her. My progress, ability to work on myself, and new strength is helping her to begin to find hers. That I'm providing her with courage.
> 
> However, she did say that she's not able to trust me. Yet. That the past, both hers and ours, still prevents her from being able to trust people. Me included.
> 
> I told her that I get that. That I'm working hard to be a better man, and when she's ready, if she's ready, to give her trust to me, I'll be there to hold her hand and be that better man.
> 
> I asked her how the self help book I'd suggested was going. She said she's reading it, but finding it a struggle. I asked her if it's because she was afraid. She agreed.
> 
> I validated her fear, but said that she needs to go through it. That I see who she could be. That I wish she should see herself as I see her. An amazing woman with a lot of love inside her. That she needs to find it for herself. That I can't do it for her, i can't fix her. But I can be there to help her, as and when she needs it.


----------



## MEM2020

Just a gentle observation.

So the suit thing - yes - she WAS giving you a huge compliment. All the more so because she has struggled so hard with losing weight. 

But the 'wild side' thing was her seeking your approval. Showing you that she is also trying to improve. And 'wild' might have been a subtle come on to you. 






DayOne said:


> Random rambling thoughts:
> Still find myself massively struggling with confidence, self esteem, being able to separate myself and stand strong. Especially when around waw. Get 'triggered' over stupid sh*t, but only because I let it.
> 
> Cases in point, last evening I got to the restaurant where we were going to have T'day dinner. I'd dragged out my best suit and best shirt and dressed to impress.
> 
> First thing waw said was "wow, that suit is way too big for you!".
> 
> Kinda pissed me off, that waw was finding fault, out of the gate. But she wasn't, she was right. I've lost a sh*tload of weight recently, and even more than I bought this suit a few years ago. At that time I was around 225, I'm now 193! The pants are a 36, and I'm now a 33 (maybe a 32). So of course the d*mn suit's going to hang on me.
> 
> What she was doing, trying to do, was pay me a compliment. And I f'ed it up.
> 
> Later she mentioned that she's out this evening, out Saturday evening, out Monday evening and out Tuesday evening. After mentioning yesterday that she's feeling like she able to start coming out of her shell, to let her 'wild side' come out.
> 
> I let this get to me. It shouldn't have. Heck, most of these 'nights out' are going to be with members of my family, with some of her friends. Girly nights out.
> 
> Like me, waw suffers from self esteem issues, and being able to be around other people. It should be great that she's able to feel able to open up, enjoy life.
> 
> But I got a pang of "oh sh*t, she's moving on". What I should have thought was "SO.THE.F.WHAT?!?!". But I didn't. I let it get to me.
> 
> And I acted distantly during the evening because of it. And wrestled with my thoughts after I got home.
> 
> But this morning I was able to wake up and try to get my head on a different track. It's her life now. What she does with it, in it, is up to her. We're separated. Her choices are her choices.
> 
> She's not pulling away. She comes up with plenty of reasons to be with be. I mentioned I'm going to see 'Fury', "Oo, can I come with you?". I mentioned I still have a gift card for a local restaurant, "Can I join you?" The gym is closed for refurb this weekend, so our Sunday workout is off, "Can I come with you and take the dogs for a walk instead?"
> 
> Written as they are, they could seem like breadcrumbs. But the sense I get when waw is talking about wanting to be around me, is that she genuinely wants to be around me. To find reasons to be with me.
> 
> Which, I think is in part why I struggle. If she wants to be that close, that often, why doesn't she want to move back in? But when i'm able to step back, get up to 50k', I see the truth in us staying separated. We've still only recently broken up after years, YEARS, of a miserable relationship. And, as much as we've turned things around, I'VE turned things around (remember, I was the d*ck who drove her away), the pain of our previous existence is still there. Getting back together, in the same place, would be a mistake.
> 
> I do feel myself slipping, falling into the trap of thinking it's all OK now. She's been drawn to who i've become. Calmer, more confident, able to express myself, share with her, accept help, not as negative, and in better physical shape than I have been in years. She especially notices this, and comments on it all the time.
> 
> Oldest boy left a pile of clothes, good clothes, at the house when he moved out. I've found that I can wear some of them. They fit me. I fit into the clothes of a 23 yo, i'm 47!
> 
> So I should have taken the suit thing for what it was, a compliment. An affirmation that I'm doing well, and she likes what she see's.
> 
> The physical is paying off. I have to now focus on the emotional, to build up my mental strength to match my new exterior.


----------



## MEM2020

John,
I'm pretty sure you haven't read this thread from the very first post forward. I just did so. 

And I have read literally thousands of threads over the last 5 years. 

This is a 'true recon' in progress. I have a keen ear for the sound of someone being played. Absolutely not the case here. D1's wife is clearly focused on making this work, is making a good faith effort to work on her issues AND feels love and desire for D1. 

Playing hardball with someone in that context is totally counterproductive. 

That said - D1 is playing a most intense game of hardball - WITH HIMSELF. And he's winning. 

If you read this thread from the first post, you'll be reading an inspirational love story. 






Johnconrad said:


> She is moving into her own place.
> 
> Don't be delusional. That means she's "leaving"
> 
> If she weren't leaving, she'd by "staying".
> 
> Yet, I'd be remiss by not echoing MEM's observation.
> 
> Brutal honesty is important... both about you AND her.
> 
> Believe what you see - and nothing more.


----------



## DayOne

Johnconrad said:


> She is moving into her own place.
> 
> Don't be delusional. That means she's "leaving"
> 
> If she weren't leaving, she'd by "staying".
> 
> Yet, I'd be remiss by not echoing MEM's observation.
> 
> Brutal honesty is important... both about you AND her.
> 
> Believe what you see - and nothing more.


She isn't moving, she DID move. Over 3 months ago. Everything that has happened in this thread is since then. 

As MEM says, you haven't read it all. I invite you to do so. There's a lot of work gone on by me, by us, since D-Day.


----------



## DayOne

MEM11363 said:


> Just a gentle observation.
> 
> So the suit thing - yes - she WAS giving you a huge compliment. All the more so because she has struggled so hard with losing weight.
> 
> But the 'wild side' thing was her seeking your approval. Showing you that she is also trying to improve. And 'wild' might have been a subtle come on to you.


Agreed. On two of the three points. I don't think there was a "subtle come on". At that time she was still too unsure of what was happening and how she felt about me, us. 

However, a month later there wasn't anything subtle about her come ons. And it was wild...  So obviously things are getting better.

But it's not just in the sack. When we're together she's constantly reaching for me. Assertively. Making sure she has my hand, putting her arm in mine, sitting thisclose on the couch. But I don't make her do it. I let her come to me. And she does.

She texts me, multiple times a day. Not breadcrumbs, contact. She wants to feel connected. To me. The man that hurt her so badly, repeatedly. But now has become a Man that she wants.

She feels safe again. Around me. Because she feels safe, she is able to let her defences down. To trust me. To open up to me. Tentatively to begin with, but increasing more and more. Emotionally and now physically. 

I've told her, repeatedly, that she can come to me and talk to me about anything. That no matter she 'bad' she feels about what's in her head, that even if it's something she fears may upset me. And I'll take it. I'll handle it. That while I'm not 'there' yet, I'll not be who i was.


----------



## DayOne

And, MEM, thank you for taking the time to read through my thread. It's not the shortest of threads, so it means a lot that you went through it all. And your responses are greatly appreciated. Definitely gives me a boost and affirms that i'm on the right track.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

You definitely grown a lot in a short amount of time. Your doing so well, that I only read intermittently on your updates. You can actively listen to her, and not get to defensive, because it is her emotions and thoughts she is expressing. Sometimes when someone is expressing something, although a negative subject, it is not always an attack. Great listeners can usually pick up the difference. Also, it shows that she can trust you with her inner self, and thus the connection is stronger.


----------



## DayOne

Mr.Fisty said:


> You definitely grown a lot in a short amount of time. Your doing so well, that I only read intermittently on your updates. *You can actively listen to her, and not get to defensive*, because it is her emotions and thoughts she is expressing. *Sometimes when someone is expressing something, although a negative subject, it is not always an attack*. Great listeners can usually pick up the difference. Also, it shows that she can trust you with her inner self, and thus the connection is stronger.


Something I still struggle with at times. Feeling chastised, fearing rejection, being "bad". But I'm pushing through it. The triggers have become less and less as I move forward.

Not just with her, but in general.


----------



## DayOne

Example of that was today, at work. Part of the project i'm heading up was given to a colleague. I briefly 'felt bad', but stepped back, looked at it again and realised the sense in it. The part i'm leading is huge, as is the part that was 'taken away'. I would have been buried if i'd tried to take it all on. 

So, it's all good. I have a feeling i'll still be mentoring the colleague anyway.


----------



## Johnconrad

DayOne said:


> Something I still struggle with at times. Feeling chastised, fearing rejection, being "bad". But I'm pushing through it. The triggers have become less and less as I move forward.
> 
> Not just with her, but in general.


I've heard therapy referred to as "operating sensitivity shrink".

Immature adults make conclusions based on the premise that most of what happens in life is about them - when almost none of it is.


----------



## MEM2020

D1,

The most useful thing I can add here might be something you already know. 

Clearly your big issue - seemed to be anger. 

But anger is not a primary emotion. It's a secondary response to 
either being hurt or frightened. Because those emotions convert to anger so fast, it's easy to lose sight of them. 

So when you feel angry - it's helpful to quickly ask yourself: Is this a by product of hurt, fear or both. 

And then address the real emotion. 

The absence of anger was by FAR the most striking aspect of the start of your thread. That told me you weren't afraid. And given the uncertainty of your situation - that told me you had FAITH - in yourself. 

And faith is so incredibly powerful in situations where uncertainty is the primary factor. 

And as you have seen - it's contagious. 











DayOne said:


> Something I still struggle with at times. Feeling chastised, fearing rejection, being "bad". But I'm pushing through it. The triggers have become less and less as I move forward.
> 
> Not just with her, but in general.


----------



## DayOne

I used to be 'angry', MEM. A lot.

Until I decided that this 'anger' I was carrying was a generic term to compass a whole range of emotions, wadded up into a tight ball. 

So instead I chose to see the emotions, the feelings that were making up this ball. Take it apart and work on the real reasons behind the 'anger'. 

It's a lot more productive.

Do I have faith in myself? I don't feel like I do. I trust myself more, believe in myself a bit more, but there's still so much that I think I need to be doing. I beat myself up, a lot. Over stupid sh*t. 

But by being more honest with myself, and learning to recognize when I'm not, I gradually progress forward.


----------



## DayOne

She came over last night. Her plan was to make me dinner, hang out for a while and then go home, because I was tired. 



She didn't go home. 



And I wasn't too tired. 






But now i'm exhausted.


15 hour work days, plus 8 hours MORE work on Saturday, followed by a night (and morning) of hot monkey sex, followed by a d*mn good gym session (together).


Guess what else i'm doing today...


This:









Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


----------



## Chaparral

MEM11363 said:


> D1,
> 
> The most useful thing I can add here might be something you already know.
> 
> Clearly your big issue - seemed to be anger.
> 
> But anger is not a primary emotion. It's a secondary response to
> either being hurt or frightened. Because those emotions convert to anger so fast, it's easy to lose sight of them.
> 
> So when you feel angry - it's helpful to quickly ask yourself: Is this a by product of hurt, fear or both.
> 
> And then address the real emotion.
> 
> The absence of anger was by FAR the most striking aspect of the start of your thread. That told me you weren't afraid. And given the uncertainty of your situation - that told me you had FAITH - in yourself.
> 
> And faith is so incredibly powerful in situations where uncertainty is the primary factor.
> 
> And as you have seen - it's contagious.


It would also be a good idea to Google anger and adrenalin. There is an addiction element to anger also. I am familiar with one family that has a serious problem with this. Getting angry releases adrenalin and people become addicted to the adrenalin rush. Extreme sports are an example of an unhealthy adrenalin addiction that often leads to death.

I eventually connected the two when I saw a member of that family having an angry outburst but instead of the expression I would expect to see on him, he was unexpectedly smiling and it was obvious he was enjoying himself.


----------



## Chaparral

BTW, you are doing an excellent job. I hope you find 2015 a wonderful year.

Have your sons been seeing the improvements between you and your wife?

Please keep the updates coming. Only a small percentage of folks visiting this site actually post but many times that number benefit from those who have threads here. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## LongWalk

Is it possible that you will end up a couple, living apart? There are such married people who do not reside together.

If separation is to be temporary, how will you know that it is time to move together again? Who should take the lead in bringing this up?


----------



## farsidejunky

LongWalk said:


> Is it possible that you will end up a couple, living apart? There are such married people who do not reside together.
> 
> If separation is to be temporary, how will you know that it is time to move together again? Who should take the lead in bringing this up?


I don't see this as a viable solution for either of them. 

D1 needs more than that, and his wife seems to be the same way.

I am pretty optimistic about their situation, LW.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> I don't see this as a viable solution for either of them.
> 
> D1 needs more than that, and his wife seems to be the same way.
> 
> I am pretty optimistic about their situation, LW.


This.

LW. You (TAM) only get glimpses into our situation, and new relationship. It's going even better than the posts would indicate. Yes, we're settling into a life 'apart', but that's what it needs to be, right now. A lot of healing and self work, on both sides to be done. Being apart allows that, at least for us. It's working.


----------



## DayOne

Chaparral said:


> BTW, you are doing an excellent job. I hope you find 2015 a wonderful year.
> 
> Have your sons been seeing the improvements between you and your wife?
> 
> Please keep the updates coming. Only a small percentage of folks visiting this site actually post but many times that number benefit from those who have threads here. Thanks for sharing.


Thank you for the encouragement, Chaparral. I think 2015 will be a continuation of the paths we're taking, onwards and upwards.

Oldest son is living back here currently, and yes he is liking that Mom and Dad are 'R'ing'. It was hard on him, so this is reassuring to him to see us working at starting over. 

Youngest son, IDK. He's with Mom and we're not in communication (another story). 

I'll keep the updates coming. As i said before it's one of the quieter threads. No fking around, no abusing each other. No drink, no drugs, no financial concerns. Just a slow, steady, currently successful R. Boring to most, I imagine!


----------



## DayOne

Chaparral said:


> It would also be a good idea to Google anger and adrenalin. There is an addiction element to anger also. I am familiar with one family that has a serious problem with this. Getting angry releases adrenalin and people become addicted to the adrenalin rush. Extreme sports are an example of an unhealthy adrenalin addiction that often leads to death.
> 
> I eventually connected the two when I saw a member of that family having an angry outburst but instead of the expression I would expect to see on him, he was unexpectedly smiling and it was obvious he was enjoying himself.



My anger, from what i've learnt so far, came from unresolved issues and an inability to cope with them. I certainly didn't 'get off' on being angry. In fact it made me feel worse. But i'm working on myself, addressing my history and finding new ways to express myself when i'm not feeling good. By turning it around and also looking at why i'm upset in the moment. It's working (though still a little rough around the edges sometimes).


----------



## farsidejunky

I thought you were going to be sleeping...


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> I thought you were going to be sleeping...



Yeah, well...


----------



## Nucking Futs

DayOne said:


> Thank you for the encouragement, Chaparral. I think 2015 will be a continuation of the paths we're taking, onwards and upwards.
> 
> Oldest son is living back here currently, and yes he is liking that Mon and Dad are 'R'ing'. It was hard on him, so this is reassuring to him to see us working at starting over.
> 
> Youngest son, IDK. He's with Mom and we're not in communication (another story).
> 
> *I'll keep the updates coming. As i said before it's one of the quieter threads. No fking around, no abusing each other. No drink, no drugs, no financial concerns. Just a slow, steady, currently successful R. Boring to most, I imagine! *


This forum is an unrelenting avalanche of cheating spouses and betrayed spouses with their heads in the sand. And then there's this thread. No cheating, two spouses who almost lost it but are working hard to become the people they need to be to stay together. 

It's good for me to follow this thread, it helps counteract CWI.:smthumbup:


----------



## DayOne

Nucking Futs said:


> This forum is an unrelenting avalanche of cheating spouses and betrayed spouses with their heads in the sand. And then there's this thread. No cheating, two spouses who almost lost it but are working hard to become the people they need to be to stay together.
> 
> It's good for me to follow this thread, it helps counteract CWI.:smthumbup:



Thanks, NF. Supportive words indeed. :smthumbup:


----------



## Kevinb

DayOne said:


> Thank you for the encouragement, Chaparral. I think 2015 will be a continuation of the paths we're taking, onwards and upwards.
> 
> Oldest son is living back here currently, and yes he is liking that Mom and Dad are 'R'ing'. It was hard on him, so this is reassuring to him to see us working at starting over.
> 
> Youngest son, IDK. He's with Mom and we're not in communication (another story).
> 
> I'll keep the updates coming. As i said before it's one of the quieter threads. No fking around, no abusing each other. No drink, no drugs, no financial concerns. Just a slow, steady, currently successful R. Boring to most, I imagine!


Not boring to me Mate!


----------



## 1971

Others will have much better advice than me but I've really enjoyed how far you have both come and I wish you continued happiness.

.


----------



## DayOne

1971 said:


> Others will have much better advice than me but I've really enjoyed how far you have both come and I wish you continued happiness.


Thank you '71. Much appreciated.


----------



## 1971

Just a little tired after reading most of the night but I just couldn't stop myself.

Happy 2015 to you both.
.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

And your sons are learning the brilliant lesson on what it takes to be a real man, just like my son. Very happy for y'all.


----------



## 4evernever

Thank you very much for sharing your story with us. 

I have read from beginning to end and it is a true inspiration. I am going through a lot of the same things at this point. All though my wife has not moved out yet. She has told me she is and is starting the planning process.

I have done a lot of the same things as you from the wrongs to the rights. I am currently working on myself as much as possible and letting the relationship take its course versus forcing anything.

My question is how do you hold back when things are going so good. While I have been working on my faults and correcting my behaviors I have noticed an improvement in my mood as well as hers. I want to tell her how much I love her and that I want her to stay to work on us versus leaving. I know that will just push her away faster if I force anything before she wants to talk. Any suggestions on how to quiet the mind?


----------



## DayOne

> I want to tell her how much I love her and that I want her to stay to work on us versus leaving. I know that will just push her away faster if I force anything before she wants to talk.


Yes, yes it will. So don't do it. All i can suggest is for you to continue on working on yourself. You won't 'win her back'. If, IF, she does change her mind, it'll be be because she chooses to. Not because she's been duped. She'll see the changes, in you, so let it happen. don't force it.


----------



## jld

D1, did you ever watch the movie _Fireproof_?


----------



## DayOne

Nope.


----------



## jld

It is on YouTube. I think you would like it.


----------



## Kevinb

Fire Proof ...what's it about?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Fireproofing your marriage.


----------



## DayOne

Not been around for a while, so thought I should update. 

Work's been crazy. A long awaited project has finally kicked off, so i'm working my a$$ off. Up at 0700, home at midnight (just got in), 5 days a week, then all day Saturday. This goes on thru March. Kinda grinding me down, but I just keep thinking about the money. 

Started out in my local office, now I'm up in London, then on to other sites round the country. After London's done I'll be hotelling it, so not home at all (except Saturday night - Sunday). Have to leave my remaining dog at my Sisters during the week, which is a bummer. First time in a decade I've been coming home to a dogless house. It sucks.

The house isn't totally empty though. My oldest boy is back here for now after changing his job. So we get to hangout, occasionally. He tends bar so his hours are crazy too. But it's good to spend time with him. 

Sundays are definitely my 'rest' day. That being said, I don't rest too much. Gym is still a Sunday morning ritual (with her), but the sessions during the week are on hold. I considered going after work, but I barely get enough sleep as it is. When I get home, i'm often so hyped it was taking a couple of hours to get to sleep, even though I'm wiped out. So I've had to occasionally take a non prescription sleep aid. It's needed, or I'm a zombie the next day. Fortunately my job isn't bomb disposal or brain surgery... 

It's my birthday on Wednesday (which already today here, by 15 minutes! Happy B'day me!). She wanted to take me away for a couple days as a birthday gift, but I suggested that I work through to the end of the project, grab all the overtime cash I can, then I'll take her away, for a whole week somewhere. She liked that.

I do kinda feel 'bad' as work has taken me away from the books (though I was reading Hold on to your N.U.Ts on the train home tonight), and the forums, and I worry i'll backslide, things do seem to still be going OK for me. I'm calmer, less prone to going BOOM, and more respectful to my co-workers. I do still get carried away with 'banter' ("joshing"), but I don't feel it has an 'edge' to it like it used to. And when I see it happening, I dial it back. The same goes for 'Mr Angry'. 

That's all i got for now. Brain is mush, 'Night all.


----------



## DayOne

Still awake. Disappointed that she declined my invitation to stay over tonight. Would have been nice not to wake up alone on my birthday. 'Needy' perhaps, but thought she might have wanted to make the gesture.


----------



## jld

Oh, D1. I am sorry.  I am sure that makes you feel sad.


----------



## GusPolinski

Kevinb said:


> Fire Proof ...what's it about?


It's about 2 hours of Kirk Cameron yelling, "You will respect me!"



DayOne said:


> Still awake. Disappointed that she declined my invitation to stay over tonight. Would have been nice not to wake up alone on my birthday. 'Needy' perhaps, but thought she might have wanted to make the gesture.


----------



## farsidejunky

Sorry about that brother. Happy birthday early for what it's worth.


----------



## jld

What else did you get out of it, Gus?


----------



## DayOne

Thanks, jld and Far. I'm not going to see any family members today, on my birthday. It would have been nice if she'd recognised that and made the effort.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> What else did you get out of it, Gus?


I remember being left w/ the distinct impression that Kirk Cameron should've given up acting once filming for the final season of Growing Pains had wrapped. :lol:

Seriously, though, it wasn't a bad movie... it just wasn't a particularly good movie.

The overall message, though, is that people in crappy marriages gain little from looking for ways to constantly absolve themselves of any blame for the poor state of their marriages.

Step back. Take a hard, long look in the mirror. Look for, identify, and eliminate any destructive patterns that may exist in _all the ways_ in which you interact w/ your spouse.

See? I'm not a _complete_ troglodyte.


----------



## farsidejunky

GusPolinski said:


> I remember being left w/ the distinct impression that Kirk Cameron should've given up acting once filming for the final season of Growing Pains had wrapped. :lol:
> 
> Seriously, though, it wasn't a bad movie... it just wasn't a particularly good movie.
> 
> The overall message, though, is that people in crappy marriages gain little from looking for ways to constantly absolve themselves of any blame for the poor state of their marriages.
> 
> Step back. Take a hard, long look in the mirror. Look for, identify, and eliminate any destructive patterns that may exist in _all the ways_ in which you interact w/ your spouse.
> 
> See? I'm not a _complete_ troglodyte.


Well, not today at least...


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> See? I'm not a _complete_ troglodyte.


I realized that the day that you posted that using control techniques makes you feel dirty and ashamed. I really appreciated hearing that, Gus. I mean that sincerely.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> I realized that the day that you posted that using control techniques makes you feel dirty and ashamed. I really appreciated hearing that, Gus. I mean that sincerely.


Not sure that I remember this...?


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Not sure that I remember this...?


I will go look for it . . .


----------



## jld

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/199594-help-ive-been-cheated-8.html

Post #107, 5th paragraph down. Did I misunderstand you?


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping-infidelity/199594-help-ive-been-cheated-8.html
> 
> Post #107, 5th paragraph down. Did I misunderstand you?


Oh that. I wouldn't necessarily refer to any of what was mentioned there as "control techniques", per se. More like due diligence. Or, if you prefer, monitoring. After all... "trust, but verify."

Either way, let's not threadjack.


----------



## farsidejunky

DayOne said:


> Thanks, jld and Far. I'm not going to see any family members today, on my birthday. It would have been nice if she'd recognised that and made the effort.


Then what are you going to do?


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Oh that. I wouldn't necessarily refer to any of what was mentioned there as "control techniques", per se. More like due diligence. Or, if you prefer, monitoring. After all... "trust, but verify."
> 
> Either way, let's not threadjack.


Okay, maybe we are not quite as far as I thought.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Okay, maybe we are not quite as far as I thought.


Respectfully, I'd agree, but not in the way that you think.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Respectfully, I'd agree, but not in the way that you think.


Feel free to start a thread, or pm me, if you feel comfortable. You are not a bad guy, Gus, but I think there has been some bad blood between us. At some point, we should clear that up.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Then what are you going to do?


Talk to her about it. Can't really claim she has ignored me, two texts, two calls and a FB post all to wish me happy B'day. And a card that she left on my bed on Sunday. Just would have been nice to wake with her. Asking too much?


----------



## jld

Maybe for her, right now. You are committed to going at her pace, right?


----------



## Kevinb

DayOne said:


> Talk to her about it. Can't really claim she has ignored me, two texts, two calls and a FB post all to wish me happy B'day. And a card that she left on my bed on Sunday. Just would have been nice to wake with her. Asking too much?


Mate, get over it! It's really just another day. And she did acknowledge it in various ways.
Don't push the issue...you've come so far


----------



## Chaparral

DayOne said:


> Thanks, jld and Far. I'm not going to see any family members today, on my birthday. It would have been nice if she'd recognised that and made the effort.


With your new hours, I'm wondering what she thinks of that. Does she think you are making your job more important than your reconciliation.

Its honest, not needy, to tell her waking up alone on your birthday was very sad.

It looks to me like refusing to come over was sending a clear message to you she is not liking what is going on.

I don't like this, I don't like this turn of events at all.


----------



## DayOne

I think they were excuses rather than reasons. 

"I'd like to wake up with you on my B'Day. How about going over to mine and waiting for me to get home"
"i've just come from the gym"
"Yum, i like you all sweaty!"
"I need a shower"
"So go to mine, take a shower and put my robe on. Just the robe..."

On and on...

I made it clear (to me?) that I wanted her to come over, but when she kept making excuses, I didn't push it. 

Could I have said "hey, enough dancing around, get over to mine!"?, sure. 

But what would have been the point in that? I'd have come across as needy and pushy. She knew I'd be alone, she could have chosen to change that. She didn't.


Chaparral, I appreciate you're a 'glass half empty' kinda guy, but I'm not pushing the panic button. It's just something that needs to be resolved.


But she's gone from wanting to go away with me for a couple of days as a birthday treat, to not even choosing to spent the night. I need to know why.


----------



## Chaparral

I have been totally optimistic up until now. We have seen many relationships fail here because of work schedules.


----------



## DayOne

Chaparral said:


> I have been totally optimistic up until now. We have seen many relationships fail here because of work schedules.


It's temporary. A few weeks, and a much needed chance to get some ££ socked away.


She's been fine with it. Even offered to dog sit, at mine, so I don't have to keep taking the dog to my sisters. And she's been reaching out, daily. If she does have a problem with my not being around, I don't think she even knows it. At least not consciously.


----------



## 1971

Belated Happy Birthday Day One

I hope your day ended up a little better.

.


----------



## DayOne

Not really, '71. We had a bit of a falling out. I had wanted her to come over and spend the night on my Bday, she didn't want to. We both dealt with it badly and regressed into our old defences. 

It got to me, at the time, but i'm choosing to move on from it. 


Saturday here, and working again. 6 day weeks and long hours are rough. My sister has suggested she have my dog stay at hers until my hours go back to normal, in about 4 weeks. I was bringing the dog home, for 24 hours, and then taking her back. But this way makes sense. It'll suck, but it's the right choice. 


Chill out and firepit this evening. I may well take myself out for a birthday dinner too. Gym and housework tomorrow. House has been neglected while i've been on the project. Time to catch up on the list of chores. And then more chilling before it all starts again on Monday.


----------



## Chaparral

How bad is this setback? Are you still speaking?

My opinion is that its really weird she didn't think more of your birthday.


----------



## DayOne

Chaparral said:


> How bad is this setback? Are you still speaking?
> 
> My opinion is that its really weird she didn't think more of your birthday.


I did, briefly, consider stopping the "Good morning/Goodnight" texts. But that would be just sulking (lame). So I still do it. But I dialled it back to simply "good morning/night. Hope you sleep/slept well", instead of "Good morning/night, my beautiful/adorable/curvaceous Wife". But we haven't spoken yet. 

We were supposed to be going out this evening, possibly with her neighbour friend. She'd said several times recently that she wanted her friend to meet this "new man", so I'd told her to set it up. She was going to check the neighbours schedule and onfirm. 

Haven't heard anything about that either.

This is harder, in a way, than the original Day One. Because we were 'in love' again, whereas on the original Day One, it was, to all intents and purposes, over. And I have to put the brakes on all the stuff we have been doing. The 'honeymooner' stuff. Because it's messed me up. Made me think that we had something that wasn't actually there. As she put it the other night, "We don't have a relationship, but we're working on getting there" 

To that extent, she's right. But if, in her opinion, we don't have a relationship, then there shouldn't be the things that people who ARE in a relationship should have. Especially the making out and sex. I've let myself get led by my d*ck. Epic fail.


I will talk to her again and get her to explain why she chose not to be with me. As I said before she felt that a card, and a couple of calls should have been enough. I disagree, considering how close we had gotten recently. There's more to be learnt.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I have learned to appreciate the wrecks because it reveals the chasms that cause the wrecks. Now you two can endeavor to fill in the chasm. Without the wreck, you wouldn't have known it was there.


----------



## Chaparral

The only thing I can think of is she is having second thoughts and used your birthday to make a point. Unfortunately that point seems to have been very cruel.

Have you thought back to see if you might have done something to hurt her or p!ss her off.

Have you noticed any other changes or has she also cut back on her texts etc.?

I just yesterday sent this link to another poster whose situation started out a lot like this one though I don't think he thinks it does.

Hopefully this will be a case of one step backward and then two steps forward.


----------



## DayOne

Before D-Day, it seemed that EVERYTHING I did would "hurt or p!ss her off".

If that's a place she's gone back to, that's a problem.

I can't think of anything that I've done. in the last few weeks. You've seen the updates. If she's p!ssed off, she's not told me. And communication has been transparent and honest. We've been going through a complete 180 (the good kind of 180, not the TAM credo kind of 180...), and it's all been good. So this, this is confusing.

Maybe she did have second thoughts. Maybe she has just gotten scared. But that's just "quarterbacking" on my side. Until I get with her and thrash this out, I won't know for sure.


----------



## Chaparral

Have you cut back on time spent with her since you started working overtime?


----------



## jld

She might be feeling guilty inside that she did not please you on your birthday. If you give her some time by herself, I think she will seek you out. I'm concerned that if you put what she would consider pressure on her, she might just withdraw further into her shell.

I would really encourage you to do fun nurturing things this weekend, just as though she were not available. Focus on learning to nurture yourself. Let_ her _come to _you._


----------



## DayOne

Chaparral said:


> Have you cut back on time spent with her since you started working overtime?


Well, yes. I only see her Saturday evening and some of Sunday (she stayed over) for the last 2 or 3 weeks.


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> She might be feeling guilty inside that she did not please you on your birthday. If you give her some time by herself, I think she will seek you out. I'm concerned that if you put what she would consider pressure on her, she might just withdraw further into her shell.
> 
> I would really encourage you to do fun nurturing things this weekend, just as though she were not available. Focus on learning to nurture yourself. Let_ her _come to _you._


She may well be, jld. However, Saturday evenings had become our time to be together. Shutting that off right now could be seen as 'punishment', by waw. 

So I did reach out:

D1: Are were still getting together later?

waw: Sure, if you want to. What did you want to do?

D1; Did you talk to *neighbour*

waw: Yes, she is not around this weekend.

D1: I'm taking myself out for birthday dinner at *restaurant*. You're welcome to join me.

waw: Don't know how to answer. Feels like a slap in the face.

D1: Sorry you feel that way. I'd simply decided to treat myself after a long week. If you wish to join me, you'll be welcome. If you don't, I understand and you have yourself a good evening.

waw: What time are you taking yourself out?

D1: Around 7

waw: I will meet you at *restaurant* around 7.


----------



## Chaparral

DayOne said:


> Well, yes. I only see her Saturday evening and some of Sunday (she stayed over) for the 2 or 3 weeks.


I see.:redcard:


----------



## DayOne

Chaparral said:


> I see.:redcard:


Expand on that.


----------



## DayOne

We also used to go to the gym together a couple times per week, during the week. That's stopped due to my hours.


----------



## jld

You know her best, D1. I think it was very mature and sensitive of you to reach out to her, considering that she might have seen anything else as punishment. And I hope you have a nice dinner.


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> You know her best, D1. I think it was very mature and sensitive of you to reach out to her, considering that she might have seen anything else as punishment. And I hope you have a nice dinner.


LB would have said "screw you, i'm staying in my room! Waaaa"

I'm not LB.


----------



## DayOne

I have doubt's about that, td. We discussed it, in depth, from the time the OT was offered way before xmas, up till last week. There have been no indicators, verbal or non verbal that would indicate that the woman who could barely stand to be around me previously is suddenly p!ssed that I'm not around enough for her.


Edit; Or I could have been totally wrong!


----------



## DayOne

Worth considering. Thanks, td.


----------



## 1971

Have you tired the more direct approach ?

In regards to tonight, ask her out on a date, tell her how beautiful she is and how you would love to she her. 

I think she might miss you with all the work you have been doing, I know that doesn't excuse your birthday and she should have made much more of and effort. We ( females ) can get very sulky when we want to. 

.


----------



## Chaparral

DayOne said:


> I have doubt's about that, td. We discussed it, in depth, from the time the OT was offered way before xmas, up till last week. There have been no indicators, verbal or non verbal that would indicate that the woman who could barely stand to be around me previously is suddenly p!ssed that I'm not around enough for her.


You were romancing each other. At a critical time of your reconciliation all of a sudden you're not there. I may be wrong. But, when I read your update about your job I thought, well what happened to the romance, the gym time, the hand holding, the sex, everything.

Now you take a vacation from that and you don't see a !over being offended. Maybe its a lover giving you your head to see what she really means to you.

Keep your shorts on honey. I'm going to put you on the back burner for a few months but I'll be back when I'm ready.

Are you over estimating her commitment?


----------



## DayOne

Tonight went well enough. No resolution to Wednesday, yet however.

She showed up at the restaurant. I met her with a smile and a peck. I chose not to go straight into it, but asked her about her week and (active) listened to what she had to say. Told her about mine. Kids, friends, blah blah. Happy, smiling, a good time, not forced. On both sides.

We only had the table for an hour as I was a "walk in", So we didn't have time to get into Wednesday. After the meal, she paid. I offered to go dutch, but she insisted. 

But then she pulled an "isolate, instigate". On me! Took me to a nearby club that she'd looked up where there was live music. Also took my arm and didn't let go.

On the way I told her I wanted to talk about Wednesday. She agreed and said she had a lot to say too, but asked if I could wait. Not tonight. I replied that I wasn't happy putting it off, and that I wasn't going to rug sweep. But that as this had turned into a night out, rather than just a meal, I would hold off. For now.

Club turned out to be a DJ instead of a band. Neither of us were into that, so we left. As we were heading back, I heard music nearby. Turned out to be coming from one of my favourite bars. A live band playing classic rock. So we got a table. Beers, wine, and vaping is permitted. Win.

D*mn, the music these guys were playing was awesome! Zepp, Sabbath, Stones, ACDC, Thin Lizzy. When they played a metal version of "Heard it through the grapevine", I about lost my sh*t! (you had to have been there). The young guitarist was a gift from heaven!

Ok, so not exactly what you were hoping to hear. But here's the thing. I could have gotten all p1ssed because we weren't dealing with what I wanted to deal with. But I didn't. I chose to go with what was happening. And I lost myself in the music. Just totally rocked out! Like I never have before. I just went with it. For me. And it was an awesome evening. I caught a couple of glances at waw, she knew that I wasn't focussed on her, that I was in my own moment. I was there for me. Not ignoring her, but just thinking about myself. 

And it felt good. It felt right. It reminded me that I'm #1. That my happiness is the most important thing, not to gauge if I'm OK by how she see's me. It was releasing. 

Stayed until the band was done, then walked her home. Peck, hug, see ya. We're going to get together tomorrow and hash out what's going on.


Tonight put me in a better place. I'm not so wound up or anxious about what's going to happen tomorrow. I'm in a place where "no matter what happens, I can take it".


----------



## DayOne

Wall o text again.

I explained my feeling like I didn't have a birthday. That it was harder than I thought it would be. That my memories of not having birthdays as a kid may have affected me more than I thought, when I didn't "get a birthday" this year. 

I've always 'played down' birthdays, that they're not that big of a deal to me. But in reality, they are.

She feels that when I don't get my way, how I want it, I sulk. And take it out on her. 

And she admitted to doing whatever she can to please me, just so I will like her. And she doesn't like that, because that's how she grew up. That she would do things for people, to make them like her, because she felt that nobody liked her, cared about her. 

So she has to be truer to herself, which means that she will no longer do what's 'expected', if it means she feels lessened by doing it. Not to say that she won't ever do things that she doesn't want to do, but won't always do things just to please me. 

She struggles with that, because she's afraid that I will not like her. Be angry with her for not doing what I want.

I thanked her for being honest. It means a lot, that she can say how she feels. To me. That I know it's hard, as I don't always react well to her saying how she feels. Because I take it as an attack, on me, and react defensively. Which pushes her away. 

I told her that it is hard to hear, that she feels that she has to please me, to be liked. To compromise herself. That's not who she should be. I want her to be true, to herself. 

There'll be times when I don't like it, and I may not react well, but as long as we're honest with each other, that we deal with the problems, better than we have before, we can work through it. 

I said that I felt confused the other night. After all we've been doing, together, recently, I felt I was being punished in some way. That she'd picked that day to pull away. 

She hadn't pulled away, she had just felt it was impractical. That I've been working crazy hours, not sleeping well, was exhausted, she felt it was better not to spend the night. That she snores, loudly, and she knows it bothers me, keeps me awake. And I needed to sleep. 

She is genuinely worried about me. These long days are taking a toll on me, she see's it, and wants to try and make sure I take care of myself. If that means she thinks i need sleep over time with her, that's what she wants to give me. 

But she also felt like I hadn't appreciated what she HAD done for me. She'd got me a card (actually two cards), called me (twice) to wish me happy birthday, organised a birthday dinner last weekend and attempted to make a getaway for us. 

That she HAD wanted to be with me, but the things she'd planned had been blown out. I'd been exhausted last Sunday, so we didn't go out, and I'd chosen work over time off, with her. She felt that I'd blown off what she had tried to do, and then gotten mad because she didn't do what I wanted to do. That I didn't appreciate what she had done, and tried to do, for my day. And that had made her angry.

It had been especially hard as it had been the first time in years that she had bought me a card, and been able to enjoy the sentiment, rather than just do it out of obligation, without expecting me to dismiss it. Because she had, for the first time in years, felt connected to me.

I agreed that I can see why she was upset, I have a history of doing that. Shooting down her ideas, and then only wanting to do what I want to do. Because of where I was at the time (up my own a$$).

In this case, there were genuine reasons why I had not taken her offers, but I accepted there was a long history of me dismissing her efforts. Which would have tainted this occasion.

I suggested that she was, at least subconsciously, coming from that place the other night. Pissed at me for blowing off her ideas, and only doing what I want. That although she may not have known it at the time, as I didn't appreciate my childhood memories at the time, it may have affected her, like it did me. She accepted that and took in on board.


----------



## DayOne

I told her that, in hindsight, I should have taken the time off. A couple days of missed overtime over being with her doing the thing she had planned should have been more important. Because a part of me knew that "damn, I've done it again". Blown her off. I recognise that I have done that too often. And that, even though this occasion had 'real' reason's, it had still hurt her.

She felt that I wasn't just being a d!ck, but that I still cannot accept good things being done for me. And I can own that. I do have a hard time with people doing things for me. I need to work on that. 

She appreciated that I had seen that, even if it was too late. 

I then moved on to how we failed to work it out on the phone that night. That, as we now know, were both coming from a bad place. Both had our own hurt going on, but hadn't resolved it before clashing. 

That we have to both work on being able to recognise when we're not ready to deal with a conflict. Something we're both bad at. We try to hammer our point onto the other one, when one or neither of us are ready. That we need to be able to say "time out", and respect that request. Maybe for an hour, maybe for a day. But then agree to come together and talk it through again. No rug sweeping, again something we're both guilty of, as it only causes resentment. 

But a positive note, she doesn't feel that I'm coming from "the old place", the old me. That even when things went south the other night, she felt that the fight wasn't like it had been before. It was much calmer. She felt safer.

I agreed. I'd noticed that although the shields had gone up, on both sides, neither of us had fallen into the old habits of scoring points, insulting, and throwing the past at each other. We'd stuck to what was happening in that moment. And that's a good thing. 

And that we wouldn't be able to have the conversation we were having right now if we were still using the same (bad) coping methods we used to use. That it's changed, we have changed. And it's working.


----------



## DayOne

Oh, and I'm back to being called her "sweet bear" in her goodnight texts.


----------



## 1971

She does miss you, sleep is important so is work but at the moment your wife is very important.

See if you can spend some more time with her.

.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Ingratitude for her style of doing things will definitely bite you in the a**.


----------



## DayOne

Took advantage of the "1/2 day" today (only one shift, not two!) and hit the gym this evening. Surprisingly, not as hard after three weeks as I thought it would be. Probably because it hasn't been three weeks of sitting on my a$$, but active and moving.

Invited Mrs D1. She accepted. Was a good workout and talk. I told her that we we weren't going to talk about anything heavy, so just chit chat instead. 

Did have fun though. There's one machine (chest press) where she always stands in front and tries to stop me from pushing the bars, plus the weight i've selected. So i'm pushing the weights and her. Still can't stop me! 

Also gave me a boost, exercise wise. Going to take my running kit to London and get out during lunch hour. There's a route that runs alongside the Thames, right next to the office. 

Not a big update really. Kinda blah perhaps, but things are back on track.


----------



## DayOne

1971 said:


> She does miss you, sleep is important so is work but at the moment your wife is very important.
> 
> See if you can spend some more time with her.
> 
> .


Like this evening? And Friday? And possibly tomorrow?


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> Ingratitude for her style of doing things will definitely bite you in the a**.


Can you expand on that, BL?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DayOne said:


> Can you expand on that, BL?


Sure... when we have our own idea of how someone should treat us and it causes us to miss THEIR style when their intent is in full love for you, that is based in ingratitude for who they are and it can snake bite us relationally. When we get too full of ourselves... we hurt those around us when they try to reach out in THEIR love for us. Here is a story to help illustrate.

Some time ago, a man punished his 3-year-old daughter for wasting a roll of gold wrapping paper. Money was tight and he became infuriated when the child tried to decorate a box to put under the Christmas tree.

Nevertheless, the little girl brought the gift to her father the next morning and said, “This is for you, Daddy.” He was embarrassed by his earlier overreaction, but his anger flared again when he found the box was empty.

He yelled at her, “Don’t you know that when you give someone a present, there’s supposed to be something inside it?”

The little girl looked up at him with tears in her eyes and said,”Oh, Daddy, it is not empty. I blew kisses into the box. All for you, Daddy.”

The father was crushed. He put his arms around his little girl, and he begged for her forgiveness.
It is told that the man kept that gold box by his bed for years and whenever he was discouraged, he would take out an imaginary kiss and remember the love of the child who had put it there.

In a very real sense, each of us as humans have been given a gold container filled with unconditional love and kisses from our children, friends, family and God. There is no more precious possession anyone could hold.


----------



## farsidejunky

Blossom Leigh said:


> Sure... when we have our own idea of how someone should treat us and it causes us to miss THEIR style when their intent is in full love for you, that is based in ingratitude for who they are and it can snake bite us relationally. When we get too full of ourselves... we hurt those around us when they try to reach out in THEIR love for us. Here is a story to help illustrate.
> 
> Some time ago, a man punished his 3-year-old daughter for wasting a roll of gold wrapping paper. Money was tight and he became infuriated when the child tried to decorate a box to put under the Christmas tree.
> 
> Nevertheless, the little girl brought the gift to her father the next morning and said, “This is for you, Daddy.” He was embarrassed by his earlier overreaction, but his anger flared again when he found the box was empty.
> 
> He yelled at her, “Don’t you know that when you give someone a present, there’s supposed to be something inside it?”
> 
> The little girl looked up at him with tears in her eyes and said,”Oh, Daddy, it is not empty. I blew kisses into the box. All for you, Daddy.”
> 
> The father was crushed. He put his arms around his little girl, and he begged for her forgiveness.
> It is told that the man kept that gold box by his bed for years and whenever he was discouraged, he would take out an imaginary kiss and remember the love of the child who had put it there.
> 
> In a very real sense, each of us as humans have been given a gold container filled with unconditional love and kisses from our children, friends, family and God. There is no more precious possession anyone could hold.


Awesome, BL.


----------



## DayOne

D*mn, BL.....

#Allergies.


----------



## QS1

DayOne said:


> "I'd like to wake up with you on my B'Day. How about going over to mine and waiting for me to get home"
> "i've just come from the gym"
> "Yum, i like you all sweaty!"
> "I need a shower"
> "So go to mine, take a shower and put my robe on. Just the robe..."
> 
> On and on...
> 
> I made it clear (to me?) that I wanted her to come over, but when she kept making excuses, I didn't push it.


THIS. Right here. Up until this post, I was insanely jealous of how you turned around. Would kill for my husband to be like you. But this conversation would have put me right back at the beginning. How many times have you pushed your wife to have sex when she didn't want it? And how many times did it sound just like this? 

IMO, you pushed it.


----------



## DayOne

QS1 said:


> THIS. Right here. Up until this post, I was insanely jealous of how you turned around. Would kill for my husband to be like you. But this conversation would have put me right back at the beginning. How many times have you pushed your wife to have sex when she didn't want it? And how many times did it sound just like this?
> 
> IMO, you pushed it.


While I appreciate what you're saying, reading *your only other post* tells me that this is an issue for you, that you have your own sex issues with a pushy husband. 

Hopefully you read on and saw what was actually going on, in our heads. It wasn't sex that I wanted. It was for my Wife to be with me, on my Birthday. However, that evening, we were both coming from different places. Fortunately we were able to talk it out later and move on. 


One thing, however, that I did also get from that evening is that I had become pushy. Not for sex, per se, but to want more than she was willing to give and more than I should have been expecting. I was thinking that we were 'together'. As she rightly put it, "we're not in a relationship". 

So I've been able to step back. Stop, or at least reduce, how much I see myself and how i'm doing based on how she sees me. To get back to focussing on me, and what I need to do, for myself. 

Now that the overtime and long hours have been taken away, I'm getting back to the gym, started running again, and picking back up on the chores, DIY around the house. Going to get back into the books too, I need to re-read them and get my thinking back on track. 

And I need to put some distance back between us. All the making out and passionate times, while enjoyable, were making me make the mistake of thinking there is more there than there actually is. We're not together, we're not in a relationship. We might be, some day, but it's not now. 

So i'm stepping back, from her. Not as much make out instigating from me, no more 'pushing' her to come over to mine. 

We went out for a family dinner last Saturday, after which she asked "what i'm doing next". I gave a list of three options, only one of which was to invite her over. She chose that option. And it was a nice night. But, if she hadn't, I had other options. And that's what matters. Not to hinge my life, my happiness, on her. To focus in living my own life. If she wants to share in it, be in it, great. But if she doesn't, that I know I can accept that, live with that and move on.


----------



## QS1

Sorry. That is my issue. Just been living vicariously through your posts, thinking at least there's a possibility for change. Going back to just lurking.


----------



## DayOne

There's always a possibility. I've been working my a$$ off to make it more than that. Your mileage (or his) may vary. 

And, FWIW, I wasn't coming after you. Perhaps pointing out that one instance shouldn't taint the other 52 pages.


----------



## DayOne

And don't lurk, QS1. Post up your story, contribute, interact. It helps.


----------



## LongWalk

DayOne,

You are in a relationship. It's just not the same one you had before. It is better and worse. Better because you are meeting each others needs better. Worse because you no longer live together.

You are on probation or trial. So far it's going well. You enjoy meeting the challenge of being a better boyfriend/lover. Maybe you will never call the same house home again. That is also a scenario that exists.

Your wife likes being courted and you like perusing her, so the status quo is okay.


----------



## Chaparral

DayOne said:


> While I appreciate what you're saying, reading *your only other post* tells me that this is an issue for you, that you have your own sex issues with a pushy husband.
> 
> Hopefully you read on and saw what was actually going on, in our heads. It wasn't sex that I wanted. It was for my Wife to be with me, on my Birthday. However, that evening, we were both coming from different places. Fortunately we were able to talk it out later and move on.
> 
> 
> _*One thing, however, that I did also get from that evening is that I had become pushy. Not for sex, per se, but to want more than she was willing to give and more than I should have been expecting. I was thinking that we were 'together'. As she rightly put it, "we're not in a relationship". *_
> 
> So I've been able to step back. Stop, or at least reduce, how much I see myself and how i'm doing based on how she sees me. To get back to focussing on me, and what I need to do, for myself.
> 
> Now that the overtime and long hours have been taken away, I'm getting back to the gym, started running again, and picking back up on the chores, DIY around the house. Going to get back into the books too, I need to re-read them and get my thinking back on track.
> 
> And I need to put some distance back between us. All the making out and passionate times, while enjoyable, were making me make the mistake of thinking there is more there than there actually is. We're not together, we're not in a relationship. We might be, some day, but it's not now.
> 
> So i'm stepping back, from her. Not as much make out instigating from me, no more 'pushing' her to come over to mine.
> 
> We went out for a family dinner last Saturday, after which she asked "what i'm doing next". I gave a list of three options, only one of which was to invite her over. She chose that option. And it was a nice night. But, if she hadn't, I had other options. And that's what matters. Not to hinge my life, my happiness, on her. To focus in living my own life. If she wants to share in it, be in it, great. But if she doesn't, that I know I can accept that, live with that and move on.


This really bothers me. Did she explain what you are doing then. If not a relationship, what is it then? I just get the feeling she was putting you down.

Since you are not in a relationship I guess its a friends with benefits ? How do FWB do Valentine's Day?


----------



## DayOne

LongWalk said:


> DayOne,
> 
> You are in a relationship. It's just not the same one you had before. It is better and worse. Better because you are meeting each others needs better. Worse because you no longer live together.
> 
> You are on probation or trial. So far it's going well. You enjoy meeting the challenge of being a better boyfriend/lover. Maybe you will never call the same house home again. That is also a scenario that exists.
> 
> Your wife likes being courted and you like pursuing her, so the status quo is okay.


A helpful perspective, LW. Thanks. I'm reaching that point where I just back off and enjoy it for what it currently is. A bit of fun, a bit of fooling around. Wanting it to be more than it is right now is only leading to resentment and pushing, on someone who isn't ready. So, just have some fun with it instead. Just think of her as a girlfriend, not a Wife anymore. 

But, OTOH, I'm going to need to know that she WANTS to be 'pursued'. And that there will be a slow and gradual escalation back into a marriage. If she's 'out' of the marriage, but too scared to let it go, or not able to reboot our relationship fully, then I'll have to consider moving on myself.


----------



## DayOne

Chaparral said:


> This really bothers me. Did she explain what you are doing then. If not a relationship, what is it then? I just get the feeling she was putting you down.
> 
> Since you are not in a relationship I guess it's a friends with benefits ? How do FWB do Valentine's Day?


Bothers me too. Something I'm going to need her to clarify. I don't think however she was "putting me down", I just think she's scared. The progress we've made in the last couple of months has been extraordinary. It hasn't been this good in years. She may well be confused by the complete 180 in our relationship, and feels she has to protect herself from falling back in love again, so soon after leaving the guy she was afraid of. 

I think it IS a relationship, and she knows it too. But it's a confusing relationship. We're together, but not together. In love (again), but separated. Lovers living apart. I don't know of any situation quite like ours, at least nothing i've read on TAM (or LS), so there's not much to go on for reference as to how others have managed to figure it out. 
Almost every other separation story I've read on here is a done deal. Over, kaput, finito. Zillard was the closest, but that went to sh*t unfortunately. 

So this is new territory. Definitely underexplored. There's no map or guide from previous successful explorers. 

As far as Valentine's Day, I've made a restaurant booking, and will enjoy the evening with the woman i'm in love with.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

That is the tricky thing about baggage. The past happened, and experience does play a role in perception. From my experience. Imagine that a person was an abusive alcoholic. The spouse in this scenario will be afraid of their spouse falling off the band wagon, and becoming an alcoholic again.

You will hit plateaus once in awhile. Each time, she has to work through the mental blocks that is preventing her from going on further. She had years to learn not to trust, it will take time to learn to trust again. Again, this is something she has to work through. She is her own enemy at the moment. Be patient, and show her whom you are now, also keep your boundaries up.


----------



## DayOne

You know what sometimes get's forgotten, overlooked, while you're so wound up in your own head? Trying to figure out WTF is going on? Where the relationship is? If you're still together? What you actually mean to each other? When you're frustrated, feeling insecure, lost?


That they are also fighting their own emotional turmoil. That they don't have the answers either. That they are, in fact, just as lost, confused, insecure as you are. And that they're as frustrated as you are.

I learnt that tonight. Or at least I was reminded of that fact. I already knew it, but had forgotten it. Lost in the ping pong thoughts bouncing round my head. 

We agreed to meet and go to the gym. And that started badly, as she'd gone straight there instead of meeting as we usually did, on her block. She'd not read the text I send clarifying that we would meet first. So I waited for 15 minutes before heading to the gym. 

So I was not in the best mood to find her there already. (An earlier vet visit had pi$$ed me off too) It went downhill from there. Shields came up, old coping mechanisms kicked in. Bunkers were hidden in. Shots were fired.

But we walked home together. It didn't get better, it got worse. Neither of us could listen to what the other one was saying, or HEAR it anyway. 

It got to the point where we were both ready to walk away. Just "FU" and bail.


And then I stopped. I stopped escalating, stopped trying to 'win'. (FYI, "winning" in this situation is actually "losing". You'll lose much more than you think you'll "win")

I broke the cycle. And that's not to say I backed down. I just...stopped. I felt this calmness come over me, eye in the storm if you will.

I quietly asked her to restate where she was coming from. And I listened. Not defensively, no arguing, no hearing "I'm bad". Just heard her out. And it wasn't accusatory, attacking, berating. I wasn't being pounded on after all. (Shocker, right?!) And I gave my side, which she listened to, in the same way.

And from then on, we talked. I was able to tell her what I've been struggling with recently. How hard it is not knowing what we are, where we're at. That it's difficult feeling toward her as strongly as I do, but not being together.

And she's in the same place. She wants to be with me, hates being apart. That she doesn't know what we are either. And trying to figure it out. 

She's been having a hard time since her counsellor asked her if she thinks we should stay together, If we're right for each other. She was afraid to tell me as she thought it would upset me. It doesn't. It's a valid question. Not an easy one, but as I told her one she needs to figure out. That my counsellor had asked me something similar and it had thrown me, for over a week. She's been having a hard time with it as she is deeply in love with me, but doesn't want to hurt me anymore, or BE hurt anymore. That we need to change who we are, completely, if we're to make it. Something I already knew. 

I told her that she always seems so together, unphased, by what's happening. She told me she isn't. She's a mess. Just as lost and scared as I am. And i'd forgotten that. Forgotten that she is having her own emotional fight.


----------



## 1971

Yay

Sounds good.

Are you both feeling a little better after that conversation ?

.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

A majority of your life, you probably learned that criticism is an attack on you. In that case, you responded as if it were an attack. Response is a learned behavior. Some people in that same scenario, could learn to take the martyr position as a learned response. Your doing well. Neutral response is something that takes time to learn. It is hard undoing what has become natural for you.

Communication works the same way. You both went into attack mode. Emotions are healthy, they are a barometer of our well-being. It only becomes unhealthy when it stops us from acting in a healthy manner. Learning to acknowledge the causes and healthily dealing with them before we engage in something else is another way we have to learn to deal with things. Escalation of your anger was what kept you from responding in a healthy way. You chose to be angry, and the anger that you felt from before kept escalating in an unhealthy manner until you unleashed it on your wife. It stopped you from being rational. You also wanted your anger to be validated by someone else, hence the redirect. The frustrations of the day got dumped on your wife.


----------



## DayOne

Bag is packed for tomorrow and Saturday (working at another site). Back home for Saturday evening and Sunday, then on the road for two weeks. 

Valentines Day card, bottle of Rioja (her favourite), and two small white rose bushes (in bloom) on the counter for when she comes over to dog sit tomorrow evening. 

I've chosen to take her out for V Day dinner. Which surprised her as she thought I didn't want to celebrate it (and as you know, I was in two minds). But as I explained to her, even though I don't know what we are right now and neither of know how this will end, I want her as my Valentine this year.


----------



## DayOne

Got back from work in plenty of time, picked waw up and took her out for Valentines dinner. Had a great time. Was interesting watching the other couples in the restaurant. Some were enjoying themselves, some seemed to be there out of duty. Fortunately we seemed to fall into the former category, not the latter. 

Kept the conversation light, it wasn't the evening to get 'heavy'. Afterwards, dropped her off at her place and came home. A good evening.


----------



## LongWalk

It seems like she enjoys your company in doses. Doses? Wrong word. For periods?

Do you feel that your interaction can become natural? Right now you both concentrate on not entering negative patterns of communication. It must be hard not being able to relax.


----------



## DayOne

LongWalk said:


> It seems like she enjoys your company in doses. Doses? Wrong word. For periods?
> 
> Do you feel that your interaction can become natural? Right now you both concentrate on not entering negative patterns of communication. It must be hard not being able to relax.


 I think we're similar in that way, LW. We enjoy being with each other, and we enjoy our alone time.Where we tripped up before (before D-Day) is not expressing when we needed space. So going forward we need to work on that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Not asking for healthy space can make a relationship implode.


----------



## DayOne

Not been around here for a while. Works been crazy. An ongoing project has had me travelling round the UK for the last few weeks. Long hours, 6 days a week. 

Back in my regular office for now, on regular hours. But off to Europe next. Paris, Madrid and Barcelona. I've been made team lead for the Europe team, so that's a big deal. Definitely helping me grow in confidence, and well as work harder on leading without being controlling. Work has taken up a lot of my time, leaving no room for anything else. But on the plus side, my paycheck is a lot healthier. 

waw is still on the scene, though we haven't seen much of each other recently. But when we have, it's been good. Really good. 

She's taking me away this weekend for a secret trip somewhere. It's something she's wanted to do for a while, I'm happy to go along with it. No real idea what it will be, but going to enjoy it. 

Also, she's coming to join me in Madrid then Barcelona. After the project finishes there, we've booked three days in a beach hotel before flying back. She was nervous about the money, but as I said above, my paycheck is in good shape, and can stretch to us taking a vacation together. 

That's it really. Working hard, getting paid. I'll take a week off next month and relax.


----------



## Chaparral

Good news I was beginning to wonder how things were going.


----------



## Chaparral

Are the both of you keeping your physical regimen going?


----------



## DayOne

Chaparral said:


> Are the both of you keeping your physical regimen going?


If you mean the gym, my schedule of 14-15 hour work days, 5 days a week and most of Saturday has meant no gym time. Also, i've been out of town, and none of the sites have had 24 hour gyms with day passes. waw has been keeping it up, and it's showing. She has lost more weight, for which I make a fuss of her.

If you mean jiggy time, then no. Again, i've been out of town. However she's coming to sleep over tonight and we're then going away for the weekend....


----------



## DayOne

Update from last night. 

Back at the hotel, finally. A great day in London at a spa, and evening out at dinner. Waw is exhausted and is currently passed out asleep on my lap. She worked her a££ off to pull it together, and struggled with the fear that I'd reject it, reject her. 

But, importantly her fears have been dissipated. Everything she's organised for our weekend has worked out. I've genuinely enjoyed every minute. And she's seen it. She's big on "actions, not words". And my actions have reassured her. 

It's an important step. I'd screwed up too many previous occasions, so to know it's different now helps her regain her trust.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Brilliant!


----------



## Chaparral

Pound it like you own it.


----------



## DayOne

Done.


----------



## DayOne

Just got home, exhausted. This weekend has definitely been a success, marked a turning point in our relationship. For the better. She went into this weekend carrying all the fears of rejection, being "inadequate", in my eyes. 

But came away completely different having spent 3 days with the man I've become since I chose to change. And she's in love with him. Because he's not the man she left. I'm not the man she left. Our interactions, our communication, in and out of bed are completely different than at any other time in our 25 years together. Because we've both changed, grown. Finally stepped back and taken the time to figure out who we are, what's been missing, and work on those realisations. But not as a couple, separately. That was our mistake before, we tried to fix each other, not our own selves.

There's still a road to travel, but IMO it's a lot shorter than ever before.


----------



## Chaparral

Keep it up haha, I've been sending other guys to your thread for inspiration/reality check.


----------



## farsidejunky

D1, success breeds success, brother. You have humbled yourself, worked your @$$ off, and grown by leaps and bounds. Your progress is well deserved. Now is not the time to take your foot off of the gas. Continue on the path to improvement and more great things will await you, brother.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks, guys. It's good to have a cheeleaders pulling for me.














OK, now i'm picturing you in cheerleaders outfits. It's slightly worrying....


----------



## stuart

It's great to see how well you two are doing, I reread your thread for inspiration.
Thanks for checking in on me, I think I finally get it, I can be stubborn too. I feel things will improve for me from here on in.
I wish you continued success.


----------



## DayOne

stuart said:


> It's great to see how well you two are doing, I reread your thread for inspiration.
> Thanks for checking in on me, I think I finally get it, I can be stubborn too. I feel things will improve for me from here on in.
> I wish you continued success.



No problem, and thanks for the support. I will continue to be there if you need me.


----------



## DayOne

Been 'offline' for a while as i've been travelling across Europe for a work rollout project. Paris, Madrid and Barcelona. (I know, tough life, right?!  )

Just got home tonight so thought I should throw an update up here. 

The project went well. Very well. I was team lead, and was worried as it was a major part of the worldwide company project. Turned out to be (and i'm blowing my own trumpet here) the best, most well received part of the rollout. All three offices were immensely satisfied with how the work was done, and my teams professionalism. And my managers and PM's gave glowing reviews during the morning phone meetings. We referred to ourselves as "the A Team", beating down any and all issues that arose during our time over there. And it was noticed "upstairs".

Waw flew down for the Madrid stage of the rollout, and stayed with me in the hotel. Exploring the city during the day and...well, exploring each other at night. 

She came with us (the team) when we moved on to Barcelona. Once the project was done (Thursday), waw and I spent the weekend in a beach front hotel for some R&R. Apart from one major, but quickly resolved, falling out, we had an awesome few days discovering Barcelona. But more importantly, we really connected together again as a couple. During the day, we talked and connected better than we have done in years, if not ever. 

And the nights were...mind blowing. There's a whole new physical, emotional dynamic that we've uncovered. Leading to a set of new discoveries that has revolutionised our sex life, after 24 years. But also drawn us closer together. There's a new level of trust and communication that has changed us both as individuals and as a couple. A term I'm beginning to use again to describe us, as is waw. 

Not out of the woods yet, but light years ahead of what we were. I'm hopeful.


----------



## farsidejunky

:allhail:


----------



## Marduk

So say we all!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I LOVE those new layers... we are finding them too.. happy for you.:smthumbup:


----------



## DayOne

It's not been all pixie dust n unicorns We had a blowout the first night in Barcelona, during dinner, probably the worst one since the split. Neither of us handled it very well, in the beginning, and when she went into full attack mode (eg : telling me to "shut up", that she WOULD tell me what I'm thinking, and throwing the "you always" and "you never" crap at me, and that I had nowhere to escape to as we were in a hotel), I walked away. Twice. Once at the dinner table when she started to yell at me to "shut up!". Then again from the room when she came up there and asked me what I was going to do now I had 'nowhere to run' and that she WAS going to tell me what I think. 

Both times I walked away was to break the cycle of escalation, the one we used to fall into at times like this. And also because she (i felt) crossed a line, into just being insulting and vindictive. Not saying I don't have a history of pulling the same sh*t, but I didn't have the same reaction I used to, and didn't want to go there. 
When I went to the lower level of the hotel (and listened to bad Catalan karaoke coming from a party room), and seriously considered getting another room for the night, or if it continued, to find a flight out. But I realised I'd be quitting. Being weak. It's what the old me would have thought. 

So I cooled down, got my head together and went to our room instead. To find her there, and she'd brought the desert that I'd ordered but not eatenBecame "the rock" (or as close to it as I'm able to manage right now), apologized for my actions and she responded to my change from the old guy. 

I think she felt that she could reduce her defcon level, as she knew I was already lowering mine. She felt safer. Instead of the usual escalating, we de-escalated. We talked it out, apologised for using our old tools on each other, and calmed down. When the 'heat' had gone from the room, I got into bed and she joined me. I gently drew her to me and she fell asleep on my chest. 

The next day I checked for rug sweeping. Whether we had resolved the fight, or it was just being stored for later. And we were both OK. 

It's better. Better than we've managed in a long time. 

This is a huge difference over how we would cope in previous fights. Not going to bed angry is something we've been unable to do in years. This time, we did.

I think she was (intentionally or not) doing the "mirror test". Seeing how much of the old guy was still in control. 

So (I think) she is looking to find out which one of us is in control. Me or that guy. So she 'tests' me. And that's something I have to learn to recognise. TBH, the fight was over something incredibly stupid, but it escalated quickly. I take my blame over that. I reacted poorly, and it set her off. She saw the old guy and it scared her. 

But when I came back to the room, I was me again, and she saw that too. 

As I've told waw previously, I'm not going to get it right, all the time. But that I'm working hard to do so.

IMO, it's getting easier to be me, not him. I was blindsided the other night, but I still was able to bounce back. Much quicker than I have done previously. And I think that waw saw that, and relaxed. 

I've been thinking about that evening. I think that I'd spent weeks 'in charge'. Of the team, of the Euro rollout. Even when i put the team in a taxi to the airport, I was still 'on'. I didn't switch off until I got a text from Lil admin to say they were on the train, almost home. 

It probably didn't help that we landed at the same airport that the Germanwings plane had left from, earlier that day... 

One of my team had also wigged out on an earlier flight, for different reasons. And I had to talk her down for the flight from Madrid to Barcelona. 

For that reason, and others, I'd had to remain on overwatch, for a long a$$ed time.

So to switch off, only to be challenged again, by waw, was a hard thing to deal with.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DayOne said:


> It's not been all pixie dust n unicorns We had a blowout the first night in Barcelona, during dinner, probably the worst one since the split. Neither of us handled it very well, in the beginning, and when she went into full attack mode (eg : telling me to "shut up", that she WOULD tell me what I'm thinking, and throwing the "you always" and "you never" crap at me, and that I had nowhere to escape to as we were in a hotel), I walked away. Twice. Once at the dinner table when she started to yell at me to "shut up!". Then again from the room when she came up there and asked me what I was going to do now I had 'nowhere to run' and that she WAS going to tell me what I think.
> 
> Both times I walked away was to break the cycle of escalation, the one we used to fall into at times like this. And also because she (i felt) crossed a line, into just being insulting and vindictive. Not saying I don't have a history of pulling the same sh*t, but I didn't have the same reaction I used to, and didn't want to go there.
> When I went to the lower level of the hotel (and listened to bad Catalan karaoke coming from a party room), and seriously considered getting another room for the night, or if it continued, to find a flight out. But I realised I'd be quitting. Being weak. It's what the old me would have thought.
> 
> So I cooled down, got my head together and went to our room instead. To find her there, and she'd brought the desert that I'd ordered but not eatenBecame "the rock" (or as close to it as I'm able to manage right now), apologized for my actions and she responded to my change from the old guy.
> 
> I think she felt that she could reduce her defcon level, as she knew I was already lowering mine. She felt safer. Instead of the usual escalating, we de-escalated. We talked it out, apologised for using our old tools on each other, and calmed down. When the 'heat' had gone from the room, I got into bed and she joined me. I gently drew her to me and she fell asleep on my chest.
> 
> The next day I checked for rug sweeping. Whether we had resolved the fight, or it was just being stored for later. And we were both OK.
> 
> It's better. Better than we've managed in a long time.
> 
> This is a huge difference over how we would cope in previous fights. Not going to bed angry is something we've been unable to do in years. This time, we did.
> 
> I think she was (intentionally or not) doing the "mirror test". Seeing how much of the old guy was still in control.
> 
> So (I think) she is looking to find out which one of us is in control. Me or that guy. So she 'tests' me. And that's something I have to learn to recognise. TBH, the fight was over something incredibly stupid, but it escalated quickly. I take my blame over that. I reacted poorly, and it set her off. She saw the old guy and it scared her.
> 
> But when I came back to the room, I was me again, and she saw that too.
> 
> As I've told waw previously, I'm not going to get it right, all the time. But that I'm working hard to do so.
> 
> IMO, it's getting easier to be me, not him. I was blindsided the other night, but I still was able to bounce back. Much quicker than I have done previously. And I think that waw saw that, and relaxed.
> 
> I've been thinking about that evening. I think that I'd spent weeks 'in charge'. Of the team, of the Euro rollout. Even when i put the team in a taxi to the airport, I was still 'on'. I didn't switch off until I got a text from Lil admin to say they were on the train, almost home.
> 
> It probably didn't help that we landed at the same airport that the Germanwings plane had left from, earlier that day...
> 
> One of my team had also wigged out on an earlier flight, for different reasons. And I had to talk her down for the flight from Madrid to Barcelona.
> 
> For that reason, and others, I'd had to remain on overwatch, for a long a$$ed time.
> 
> So to switch off, only to be challenged again, by waw, was a hard thing to deal with.


Sounds so similar to us, so be encouraged. We had two blow outs post new skills, both were recovered quicker than ever and ushered in new confidence and trust, and deeper levels of intimacy. We haven't had a blow out since October of last year which is a freakin HUGE record for us. Life is good and only getting better. And you are right.... new construction is messy no matter how far along in the construction you are.  That acceptance will serve you well. happy for y'all


----------



## Decorum

Wow I think you got it right she was testing you to see if you could handle her "crazy" and help Shepard her emotions without abuse or being controlling. That shows strength and she will feel safe with you.

Really well done.

Btw I have put "crazy" in ink that only men can read, so we don't have to worry about any of out TAM sisters taking issue with it. 

But yeah owning your part in is so important, my wife and I use a sentence like this to ask forgiveness.

"I was wrong to _________(Be, unkind, selfish, lazy, etc) and to act in an inappropriate way when I________(spoke harshly, was critical, raised my voice etc), will you forgive me? Then We wait for an answer, we have agree to say and mean "I forgive you".

That is a bit formula like but its our baseline for an honest apology.

We go through every offense when necessary. It's humbling and hard to say sometimes. It requires much more than just "I'm sorry I _____"

Keep it up you are building with the right materials.
Take care!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

We added asking for forgiveness too. Really helps finalize resolution.


Lol... TAM sisters. That's funny.


----------



## Decorum

Blossom Leigh said:


> We added asking for forgiveness too. Really helps finalize resolution.
> 
> 
> Lol... TAM sisters. That's funny.


With all due respect of course! :smthumbup:


(and we all have our "crazy", just ask those closest to us, wink wink)


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Decorum said:


> With all due respect of course! :smthumbup:
> 
> 
> (and we all have our "crazy", just ask those closest to us, wink wink)


That we do!


----------



## DayOne

"You ALWAYS/you NEVER"


One of waw's most reached for tools in her ammo pouch is "you ALWAYS... and "you NEVER...". 

As in, for example:
"You ALWAYS act like you're so perfect",
"You ALWAYS have to be right", 
"you NEVER take responsibility, for ANYTHING", 
"you NEVER apologise, for ANYTHING, EVER!". 


And she knows it's an instant "button pusher" for me. Because I don't know how to counteract it. 
Can't try and argue with it (escalation), 
can't defend against it (not heard), 
can't walk away from it (followed), 
can't shrug it off (push, push, push, until I react)
And obviously can't put her across my knee and spank it out of her. (we don't have that relationship)

It's an instant nuclear strike. And I need to know how to defuse it. Discussion, suggestions welcome.


----------



## Tron

Stay calm, don't engage and learn to swat those away like flies.

And where you get the opportunity try a little humor.

"I will admit I always want to take you to bed and **** the daylights out of you"

Then there is always this one, which I like too:


----------



## Blossom Leigh

"Never and always isn't possible. Usually is more accurate or often"

"Please refrain from drama language. It is non productive."


----------



## Mr.Fisty

I enjoy the questioning method. Does she have a negotiating personality? If so, she is looking for points to win in an argument. If this is the case, when things are calm, make her aware of this.

The questioning method starts off broad, and it narrows down to specifics. It helps them think and use their logic.

"Honey, I am sorry you feel that way. If I have never apologize, can you give me examples of when I have failed to? I want your help in helping me understand from your position. If I have never apologize, what about the time I ask for your forgiveness? Why is it that you feel that way? If you feel like I do not listen to you, can you explain why?

Whatever her answers are, keep asking question when she makes an illogical statement. If she is fighting to win, ask those questions and disengage. When she cools down, hold her hand, look into her eyes, and say, "We need to talk."

People are not always aware of their issues, and sometimes they need help in seeing their own irrational behavior. If you help arm her with this knowledge, and ask her to seek help, because you love her, and want to help her grow.


----------



## jld

I would not try to bring logic into it when she is emotional. I would not try to control her in any way. And anything she perceives as abandonment from you risks making you seem untrustworthy to her.

She wants to be heard and understood. She needs empathy. She needs you to listen and search your own heart to see the truth in what she is saying, whatever the size of it. She needs to be held and comforted and loved.

When she is calm and feeling safe with you, you can bring up, gently, the logical side. Until she is there, your logic is likely to just be seen as oppositional.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Maybe. I see risk in that approach jld. He could be rewarding her tantrums. 

Those tantrums are not ok. He is not safe when she tantrums, so I do not recommend carte blanc empathy absent of a boundary with it. I do like empathy and finding her truth, but weathering any type of tantrum for truth sake isn't wise. A man should expect his wife to demonstrate self control and when she steps outside of that realm, she should expect an appropriate boundary. It takes really good assessment on his part, but he should not just tuck and take it.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I will add Day One, that when I am emotional and my H uses an appropriate boundary it calms me so fast. It strengthens my respect for him. And usually makes me want to jump his bones on the spot.


----------



## jld

He knows his wife best. He has to tailor what we give him to his specific situation.

D1, some women have told me they like it when their man does as BL suggests. There are women who actually want their man to leave the room if they shout at him. For them, that is reassuring.

For me, anything other than calmness, kindness, and empathy just screams, "Weak! Untrustworthy! Unsafe!" He would not be the man for me.

You have to know your wife. There is just no substitute for knowing what works best for her.


----------



## DayOne

Ladies, you both have valid points, very helpful suggestions , that are are appreciated. You both come from very different places, lifestyles, and that's a good thing. It gives different perspectives, both of which are appreciated and respected. Thank you, both.


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## jld

BL, would you like to elaborate on, "he is not safe when she tantrums"?

D1, would you like to comment?


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## DayOne

From my perspective, "he is not safe when she tantrums", means I'm not safe emotionally. Because I'm still learning to NOT react when she chooses to be bratty. It's been a failing of mine, in our previous marriage. We fire each other up. 

I am learning to get myself under control. To think instead of react. Not always successful, but better than I have been. The other night in the hotel was an example of that.

I'm working on being stronger. To be able to take her at her worst, but still show her my best.


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## jld

Beautiful, D1.


----------



## Chaparral

Not saying its the case here, but in general, I think everyone should Google anger and adrenaline. People actually get addicted to the high of arguing.

Right or wrong, I simply walk away when I see the storm coming over trivial bs.


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## Blossom Leigh

DayOne said:


> From my perspective, "he is not safe when she tantrums", means I'm not safe emotionally. Because I'm still learning to NOT react when she chooses to be bratty. It's been a failing of mine, in our previous marriage. We fire each other up.
> 
> I am learning to get myself under control. To think instead of react. Not always successful, but better than I have been. The other night in the hotel was an example of that.
> 
> I'm working on being stronger. To be able to take her at her worst, but still show her my best.



Her brattiness is designed to inflict injury. It is _why_ it can trigger reactive outbursts. Therefore, just as much as he is learning self control, she should be learning the same. Yes, you can choose your reaction, and I applaud you. Just never be under the idea that you cannot go on to correct her with a voiced expectation of her self control. She is an adult. She can learn to choose better. 

Out of the FOG - Personality Disorder Support helped me put definition to what I experienced with my H and call the behavior specifically. I believe you will find the always and never statements on that list. I believe you are ready to REALLY refine your strategy in improving communication and relational environment even more. My two greatest tools were defining accurately the behaviors I saw that were not productive and engaging boundaries I learning from Boundaries by Townsend.

I was determined there was going to be peace in this house and foul behaviors had to go. I refuse to tolerate toxicity regardless of gender.


----------



## DayOne

Chaparral said:


> Not saying its the case here, but in general, I think everyone should Google anger and adrenaline. People actually get addicted to the high of arguing.
> 
> Right or wrong, I simply walk away when I see the storm coming over trivial bs.




Personally, I hate it. I'm not a confrontational person .So i either beta out or steam in hard. Neither is acceptable.


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## jld

Chaparral said:


> Not saying its the case here, but in general, I think everyone should Google anger and adrenaline. People actually get addicted to the high of arguing.
> 
> Right or wrong, I simply walk away when I see the storm coming over trivial bs.


I think arguing makes some people feel powerful. They want to conquer the other person, to be right.

I think D1's wife just wants to be heard. She is reaching out to him, asking for his empathy. A mature response from him would deepen her trust in his ability to understand her. If she feels understood, she will feel loved.


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## Blossom Leigh

DayOne said:


> Personally, I hate it. I'm not a confrontational person .So i either beta out or steam in hard. Neither is acceptable.


I hate it too. Its why I dug in and rooted out the undercurrents that were fueling those episodes here. I can't live in chronic toxins.


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> I hate it too. Its why I dug in and rooted out the undercurrents that were fueling those episodes here. I can't live in chronic toxins.


That is what active listening is designed to do: uncover the roots of the problem, so effective solutions can be found.


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## Mr.Fisty

Make no mistakes, she needs work herself. She is responsible for creating the environment. That argumentative side of her wants to win, and she knows what button to push to achieve it.

You may outgrow her as an individual if you keep this up. The goal is not to stay in the marriage, but to have two functioning people to contribute to each others well-being. That episode is an example of her dysfunction having a probability of making you dysfunctional as well.

You should make her aware of it, then it is her job, her responsibility to work on that issue within herself. She may slip once in a while since old habits never fully fade away, they just get replaced with better ones.

Your change of reaction is one way of responding differently, but on occasions, you will slip, it is human nature. Do not always beat yourself up if you do. Think positively that you will do better and it is normal to slip.


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## jld

Mr.Fisty said:


> She is responsible for creating the environment.


?


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## Blossom Leigh

Mr.Fisty said:


> Make no mistakes, she needs work herself. She is responsible for creating the environment. That argumentative side of her wants to win, and she knows what button to push to achieve it.
> 
> You may outgrow her as an individual if you keep this up. The goal is not to stay in the marriage, but to have two functioning people to contribute to each others well-being. That episode is an example of her dysfunction having a probability of making you dysfunctional as well.
> 
> You should make her aware of it, then it is her job, her responsibility to work on that issue within herself. She may slip once in a while since old habits never fully fade away, they just get replaced with better ones.
> 
> Your change of reaction is one way of responding differently, but on occasions, you will slip, it is human nature. Do not always beat yourself up if you do. Think positively that you will do better and it is normal to slip.


Precisely. I expect my husband to express himself without influcting injury while doing it.


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## DayOne

I don't go 'on the attack' anymore. Find ways to insult, "win". I no longer see the need, or feel the need to do that. The other night, I was getting angry, but didn't cross the line into attacking, fighting back.

When waw didn't back off, but kept coming at me, verbally, that's when I walked. Before I failed more than i already had. Before I came down to her level.


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## Mr.Fisty

DayOne said:


> I don't go 'on the attack' anymore. Find ways to insult, "win". I no longer see the need, or feel the need to do that. The other night, I was getting angry, but didn't cross the line into attacking, fighting back.
> 
> When waw didn't back off, but kept coming at me, verbally, that's when I walked. Before I failed more than i already had. Before I came down to her level.



As you should have, if you stayed, the situation would have escalated. Your marriage did not just break-up on just your issues alone, she has some issues herself. Your just noticing it more because you learn to detach, and when she left you, your love for her motivated you to win her back. The love goggles is not as strong as before, and eventually if she keeps pushing and pulling you, eventually you will become emotionally exhausted to just give up. YOU might end up being the WAH. Before the separation, you may have been more dysfunctional than her, but now the script is flipped. From what you have posted, you are improving more than she is, granted, she has walls of mistrust blocking her path, and this behavior she has now, may have been developed during your bad times.

I was a victim of abuse as a child, and my dysfunctional behavior was molded around that. Chances are, if I grew up in a healthy environment, my past self would not have been so dysfunctional.


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## jld

DayOne said:


> I don't go 'on the attack' anymore. Find ways to insult, "win". I no longer see the need, or feel the need to do that. The other night, I was getting angry, but didn't cross the line into attacking, fighting back.
> 
> When waw didn't back off, but kept coming at me, verbally, that's when I walked. Before I failed more than i already had. Before I came down to her level.


Eventually you will be strong enough not to leave the room. You will be able to reach out to her with empathy. Your understanding and strength will defuse her anger.

And she will melt in front of you.


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## Tron

Day One knows her better than we do, but if she is picking fights for the rush or adrenaline or because of her dysfunction, then no amount of kissing her a$$ is going to ever satisfy her. In fact, it is going to have the opposite effect and make her respect him less. You have to deflect. "You know what I NEVER can do? I can never get this image of you prancing around this house in a French Maid Costume, and dammit that sure gets me fired up!"

If the argument is legit then actively listen, show empathy and apologize. Make sure you don't repeat those mistakes.

If she is regurgitating old arguments then you have to shut it down, don't apologize for things that you have already apologized for. You are better off simply saying "we have dealt with this already I don't know how many times. Do you really want to rehash this?" I don't know about your wife D1, but this shuts mine down cold. She is gonna say no most of the time, then give her a hug and tell her you love her. All calm.

If you find yourself losing it you need to tell her you can't talk about that right now, we can talk later and walk away.


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## jld

Tron said:


> Day One knows her better than we do, but if she is picking fights for the rush or adrenaline or because of her dysfunction, then no amount of kissing her a$$ is going to ever satisfy her. In fact, it is going to have the opposite effect and make her respect him less. You have to deflect.


If she were a domme, I think I might agree with that, Tron. But I think she is the sub here. And I think she wants to feel understood and be shown compassion. That will earn her trust. She will know her heart is safe with him.


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## Blossom Leigh

Only when you are strong enough and have a clear vision of empathy should remaining in the room of abuse be attempted, especially if the abuse is based in irrational thinking. Otherwise, you will be self inflicting injury.


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## jld

The more you practice active listening, the better you will get at it. It will be easier and easier to hear her heart without taking her words personally. Eventually you will wonder why you ever felt you needed to leave the room.


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## farsidejunky

Putting on my JLD flame suit here....

D1, this is a sh!t test. You know it's not true. She knows it's not true. But she is giving it to you anyway. 

It is for two reasons. The QBQ (question behind the question otlr statement) is twofold:

1. Can you handle me at my worst?

2. Are your changes for real.

Removing the suit...

In many instances, I would advocate for someone to walk away. I would with my wife, then give her the opportunity to revisit it in a healthy way.

But in your case, and knowing what I know, JLD's suggestion is going to have to be it. 

As your dynamic has evolved, it is clear that she needs you to be a certain way. And it is not fair to you, but if you want your relationship to be what it has appeared to be as of late, you will need to be the rock.

On the inside you will be screaming, angry, and defensive. On the outside, you have to disarm her.

Just because she has a hornets nest of emotions spinning in her head does not mean you have to match it.

ETA: I accidentally posted this in Regret's thread!


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## jld

Cheapskate!


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## farsidejunky

I know, look at my edit... lol


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## jld

Lol! It still kind of fit there.


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## Blossom Leigh

I still say you ask her to choose better in the future for longterm peace.

Why bear that poor behavior. Life is too short.

Yes, listen well, but do not take the burden of her poor choice in the championing of active listening. Expect her to be a compassionate adult tempered with the same self control YOU are working so hard on for yourself.


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## jld

When he has diffused her emotion with active listening, I think she will be able to hear his correction.


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## Blossom Leigh

There is more than one way to diffuse emotions. In our situation both active listening and tough love boundaries have both diffused emotions. I just feel in the face of abuse tough love boundaries is just as valid and in some behaviors more valid than active listening because you can active listen WHILE at the same time placing a boundary on out of control behavior. Because in the long run, that getting digs in no matter how it gets done is flat out wrong and should be held to account.


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## jld

Blossom Leigh said:


> There is more than one way to diffuse emotions. In our situation both active listening and tough love boundaries have both diffused emotions. I just feel in the face of abuse tough love boundaries is just as valid and in some behaviors more valid than active listening because you can active listen WHILE at the same time placing a boundary on out of control behavior. Because in the long run, that getting digs in no matter how it gets done is flat out wrong and should be held to account.


I think you need to look at specific individuals and their needs. If you are dealing with a tough-nosed person who is going to thank you later for disciplining him upfront, then by all means jump right in with correction.

For me, I cannot even hear correction until active listening has taken place. Calmed and understood, I can then hear my husband's perspective and ask his forgiveness for my angry words.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> I think you need to look at specific individuals and their needs. If you are dealing with a tough-nosed person who is going to thank you later for disciplining him upfront, then by all means jump right in with correction.
> 
> For me, I cannot even hear correction until active listening has taken place. Calmed and understood, I can then hear my husband's perspective and ask his forgiveness for my angry words.


If I were Dug, I would be expecting you to work to reduce that over time. Especially if his correction is empathetic. 

I would want you to grow to the point you could express your upset engaged with empathy while you are saying it. AND grow to the point where you can handle a correction because you know its based in love. 

My H can express when he is upset with me, just express it constructively, not destructively. I work to do the same with him. I used to not be able to hear my H either, but I worked hard to believe he loved me despite my triggered state. I used to be just as sensitive, but I grew past that. My H should be able to give appropriate correction without me falling apart and visa versa. If he is accurate, firm, but mostly calm and respectful he should expect me to be mature enough to hear, accept and listen without lashing out. Visa versa. Yes, ask for forgiveness when occassional failings happen, but if that kind of behavior is chronic in frequency OR just never changes long term, I would be calling you on the carpet that its time to work to grow past that. 

Same for you Day One. Yes, short term, give her leniency while she is learning to choose better, but long term I would not lay down the standard of expecting her to engage her own personal capacity to choose better going forward.


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## jld

It _is_ better when communication can be effective without emotion. In our case, Dug hears angry words when calm words don't make an impact. He says if he would listen better, earlier, I would not get to that point.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> It _is_ better when communication can be effective without emotion. In our case, Dug hears angry words when calm words don't make an impact. He says if he would listen better, earlier, I would not get to that point.


This is when I get provocative with consequences. I'm not sure if this is the OP's situation, but it depends on why he is not listening. If Dug or the OP are not listening out of rebellion and defiance, I would enact a consequence that was non abusive in nature, but effective. For instance when my son ignores me about getting out of bed, I head to the ice bin. As soon as the ice rattles his feet hit the floor.  There can be firm "rattles" given that are verbal but not abusive. For instance "Dug, what I have to say right now is VERY important and I expect you to listen." If he is distracted, ask him to put away distractions and tune in and then wait for him to do that. Day One, you could ask your wife to approach you this way. It's just clear firm communication of expectations. When I speak in my house I expect to be listened to. If I am being ignored, I fix it. And I fix it before I get too emotional to control anger or yelling. I just don't want to go there, so I speak earlier about my expectations rather than later. 

OP, when your wife speaks to you, are you non responsive like jld describes? What gets your wife to that level of heated emotion?


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## jld

No, it is not out of rebellion or defiance.  Dug is just an INTP.


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> No, it is not out of rebellion or defiance.  Dug is just an INTP.


That's funny.

So is my husband.


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## jld

Lol!


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## jld

What are you, Blossom?


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## Blossom Leigh

jld said:


> What are you, Blossom?


Started off as ENTJ, but now lean more ENFJ

you?


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## jld

Infj


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## Blossom Leigh

That explains a LOT.. lol... I have a close friend that is infj. 

great personality type, but VERY sensitive.

also extremely intuitive

we are thread jacking now and probably need to pm

sorry day one


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## DayOne

No problem at all, Ladies. I'm enjoying your discussion.


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## DayOne

Just dropping an update off:

Back to 'normal', following the completion of the work project. Took a week off, some of which was to get out and get hiking again. Something I'd stopped doing. Met up with a buddy and explored the Peak District of the UK. Very tiring, but also very satisfying.

waw had stayed at mine while I was away (she is finding it VERY difficult to not be here now, and not be around me, so that a good thing), and stayed over last night. With the fun n games that comes from two people that are 'into' each other again! 

It all going good. waw has brought up MC, and she feels she is ready to talk about us with a view to a future. And she talks about us in the future tense. That's a new thing, that she thinks there IS one (as do I).


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## Chaparral

Thanks for the update. Sounds very good.


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## just got it 55

DO great news only one word of caution

Complacency ...............it’s a killer of everything

55


----------



## DayOne

Just dropping in another quick update:

waw and I continue to move forward. She invited me out Saturday night for dinner and live music, and stayed over thru last night. Despite the dinner being a bit of a fustercluck, due to the restaurant screwing up, not us, we had a great evening (and a free meal!).

We continue to talk, finding it ever easier to do so. In fact waw remarked that she enjoyed the evening out in part because we had just talked non stop, all evening.

She's changing, becoming more confident, and less nervous around me. Able to say what's on her mind, and not be scared of being put down or ignored. Because I'm changing too. 


We're getting there.


----------



## DayOne

Update:

Took waw away for her birthday last weekend for a surprise three days in Venice (Italy, not CA!). Great time was had, and we did really well together. One small bit of friction due to both being exhausted long days of exploring the city on foot in searing heat, but lasted less than an hour and resolved by taking an afternoon siesta together. 

We continue to grow, individually and together. Our ability to communicate and work with each other is the best it's ever been. Not all perfect, but who is? 

Still separated, but the running joke is that "we're just really bad at it". waw is talking about us taking a trip together in September for our 25th anniversary, rather than renewing her apt lease. 


Makes for a really boring thread i'm sure, but that's fine. We just quietly, steadily continue to rebuild our marriage and move forward. We realised what we had in each other, and what we had to lose, and chose to NOT lose it. 

It can be done, but it's ****ing hard work, and you have to be prepared to commit to it.


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## Mr.Fisty

Boring threads are good, and hearing people being happy and well makes me happy as well.

Sounds like your both doing well dating each other, and before taking the next big step of cohabitation, issues and flaws will be minimize before going any further.


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## Blossom Leigh

Hard work and deeply gratifying.


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## anchorwatch

Hello, D1

It's so boring, I can't stop following your progress. 

Here's to you continuing the ****ing hard work. 

Best


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## DayOne

Still around, still moving forward, waw and I continue to improve. Last weekend she seemed out of sorts, stayed at mine Friday and Saturday, but left on Sunday "Saying had some things to figure out".

Didn't freak out, just left her alone for the week. I could tell there was something troubling her, gave her the space to figure it out. 

It was the right call. waw came to me last Friday and told me why she'd been 'withdrawn' all week.

She's been deep in thought about her relationship with her sisters, about her life growing up, and how it has affected her. Her discussions in therapy seem to have taken her to places she's been afraid to visit for much too long. But, she's resolved to go there now and face up to the pain it has caused her. 

To do that she needed time and space to think. 

She's reached out to her sisters and received positive feedback , which has meant a lot to her. 

And she's also been grateful to me for recognising her need for that time and space, without jumping in and interfering (Old Guy Issue). Growing more trust in me, and confidence of herself.

The trust building continued the following night Saturday. waw came over, we'd agreed on an evening in as we'd been out Friday night (dinner with my Brother and his Wife), and we were out last night (music concert).

As we were staying in, i'd texted her to "dress appropriately (or inappropriately..!)". Although she replied "I don't understand" she must have figured it out as she came over in a long coat and not much underneath (strappy top, short skirt, fishnets, heels).

I told her she looked d*mn good, and got a whole lot of bluster about how she feels like she looks fat, has lots of weight to lose, blah blah (Tip; watch the actions, not the words).

Which led on to a conversation about how she struggles with complements. Being called "gorgeous", "pretty", "sexy", "hawt", etc. She doesn't like being thought of in that way as it reminds her of her past where she felt like she was just thought of as a sexual object. 

I reassured her that although yes, I think of her sexually, I don't think of her as a sexual object. For instance, when I meet her on her street, and say "hey gorgeous", I'm not looking at her a$$, her Pu$$y, her t1ts. I'm looking at her face, her eyes. They shine, there's life in them again. She glows, and that's what's 'gorgeous'. She accepted that. 

She also admitted to still being afraid of opening up to me. That I would eventually throw what she says back in her face. Breaching her trust by stomping on how she feels. I've done it before, too many times. 

I told her (again) that I can't promise i'll never Fk up. Say something stupid. But that I'm working on NOT being the guy she was married to. That we're both staring anew. A whole new relationship, but aware that we are coming from a bad one. Not pretending it didn't happen, but building from it. She accepted that too. Even commenting this morning on the way back from the gym that she liked being able to discuss something contentious and not have the evening go downhill. (has happened before)

Having cleared the air we both moved on and had a great night. Watched a movie, then put on another movie something a bit more... risque. We didn't get past the first 20 minutes. 

I tried out a couple new moves, and introduced a new item. A battery operated vibe. All of which worked very well and were very well received! 

Which brings up (pun intended) an issue i've been having recently. We've been playing with bedroom "D/s" the last few months. Which has been enjoyed by both of us. However, I've been having an 'issue' with stamina. Maybe it's an age thing, but maybe it's something else. Went to see the doc. Heart and lungs sound clear. Maxed out the spirometer (lung function test). BP a little high, but not a problem. Blood tests to wait on. Cholesterol, lipids, etc. I asked her to add a testosterone check. 

Picked up some Cialis to try out. Doc was going for Viagra, hadn't even heard of Cialis. It seems to be helping, a lot, but I'm still struggling with my headspace for some reason. I need to learn to be able to just let go. Perhaps I'm still so focussed on 'Domming' that I forget I need to have a good time too.

Stopped by a sex shop on the way back from the gym Sunday morning. This is a good thing as she's always been reluctant to go in before. She was actively browsing the outfits and items, with interest. She actually said she wants handcuffs, but the fur lined ones. I showed her a cat (o nine tails) and we discussed the MASSIVE trigger that punishment, including spanking, causes in both of us. I explained that if we ever did experiment with 'punishment', it would be just for fun. That I'd never use it to hurt her, cause her pain. She was surprisingly OK with that. 

So, despite her occasional but diminishing protestations that she has trouble trusting me, her actions state otherwise. She finds reasons to come over, to be around. Me. The guy she had lost faith in.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

So many of the steps, processes and mindsets both of you have are so similar to us its scary. Very happy for yall. Glad to hear she is healing on a deep level. You were greatly instrumental in giving her that gift.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## jld

You have been very supportive of her, D1. I am sure she appreciates it.

What I am most impressed with, though, is how you started working on yourself without waiting for her to lead you or keep step. I respect that kind of initiative.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I agree. I had already been on a healing path two years before meeting my husband and never laid it down. Then in the Fall of 2013 I took it to a new level with ACOA which necessitated he start healing too or it meant an end to the relationship because I grew strong enough to no longer be willing to allow destructive behavior and attitudes to dominate our home. I've heard that once one person in a family begins to heal that it will usually cause others to choose the same for themselves. I've witnessed it between my H and I, in my FOO and here. In my relationship with my H it happened when I took an already existing healing path to a new level. And laid a needed boundary as a result of it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DayOne

We're definitely changing how we think, and how we interact. Something I've done is to stop thinking about whether I'm making her happy, what I need to do for her to be happy, whether I'm "doing it wrong". I come from who I am, rather than who I think I need to be to please her. If I do fk up, do something that bothers her, it's her responsibility to tell me, not mine to monitor whether everything is 'OK'.

And for waw, as the trust grows, and the history fades, she is able to use her voice. To tell me what's on her mind, without fear of being criticized, dismissed, ignored.

Last evening we went to a concert. I'd chosen to rely on trains instead of driving to the venue (in London), and that turned out to be a big mistake. We arrived at the venue late due to a slow running train (and waw being later than expected), and had to leave early to catch the last train. Which we missed. Made it home, but cost us a lot of money for transport that night.

I was getting my angry on, but waw was able to talk me down and because of that, I was able to drop it and just enjoy the evening. And I made sure I let her know that.


----------



## DayOne

When she left yesterday morning, we agreed to meet up later. So I drop her a text at 12:45, laying out a plan for the evening. For her to come over at 5, then we go to the gym, back here, shower, and i'll bbq dinner, then relax in the yard, followed by a movie on the couch. Then breakfast and a country walk in the morning. 

She calls AT 5, like right on the nose of 5, saying she only just checked her texts. And she's not joining me for the gym, as she only just put a load of laundry in.

She can tell I'm disappointed and goes into full pre-emptive strike. That's she's not going to apologise for not checking her phone, that if I'm going to be disappointed, "oh well". 

I know it's just "shields up", and I don't react. Just let it flow. Just suggest that she come over at 7 instead for dinner. 

She's probably seeing 'old guy' in her head, and TBH, i'm kinda feeling 'old guy'. I'm disappointed when she is slow to answer (which happens, a lot), and not check to see if I've communicated with her when we agree to make plans. For over 4.5 hours. She's defensive, and i'm ticked.

And this is when, historically, we run into trouble. When one of us is steamed and the other doesn't want to admit fault, or see where the problem comes from. 

Off to the gym, alone. Steamed.

.
.
.
.
.

However...

waw came over last night, as (re)arranged. And I gently eased into discussing what happened earlier. When she had called me to tell me she'd only just read the text, my response was "oh". And that "oh", in her head, was 25 years of her feeling i was disappointed in her. That "oh" was me saying "you fked up, again. You're useless." Along with 40+ years of hearing it from her family. 

So, yeah, shields up. 

Also, she's deathly afraid that I will go back, to being OG. That she is waiting for the backlash, the fall off the tightrope. For the dream to go back to being a nightmare. She's scared that because i'm not in IC, I will falter in my progress. 

I just listened. and the more I just listened, the more she said, opened up. She would look at me for any signs of annoyance, rejection, and found none. And she relaxed. 

I held her and let her know that the "oh" was only because of that instance. Not weighed down by years of baggage. I won't throw the past in her face. But also realise that we have more triggers than a ww2 sea mine! That if we wanted 'easy' we'd just split and start over with someone new. But that's not what either of us want. We still want each other, that's the 'hard' option. But so worth it. 

I was disappointed, but I wasn't pissed, That I would just have to learn to communicate in a different way. If i had an important message to get across, not to simply text and expect it to be read (on the schedule I may have had in my head), but to call and speak to her instead. 

And we worked it out. And took the time to appreciate that a conversation like this would always have ended badly, in the past. But now, they don't. The 'atmosphere' was dispelled, the evening continued. And ended VERY well! 

So, we're continuing to improve in learning to work things out. When there's a 'problem', a difference of opinion. Instead of scoring points and both trying so hard to be 'right', we back off and no longer try to 'win' (which ultimately results in a lose for both parties), but discuss what's actually going on. And, even if we don't agree, we disagree amicably. 

Onwards and upwards.


----------



## jld

That last post should be featured on the front page of TAM, D1. You are da man!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Geeze, y'all are so much like us. Seriously... We too had more triggers than a WW2 landmine a staying together has been the hard choice, but intensely rewarding. What is good is you guys don't have abuse and infidelity on top of trigger work. From where you are right now it took us another solid nine months of work until we saw frequency and intensity decrease. So I hear the bit of overwhelm at how many landmines you can see, we did too, but they do decrease, significantly. Cheering y'all on!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DayOne

Thanks BL. Nice to hear I'm not alone out there.


----------



## DayOne

Talking to waw Friday night, she admitted to being worried about "disappointing me" if she doesn't move back in September. Like it was more important than doing what she felt was right, for her. She feels that she doesn't like disappointing people. Toxic shame, imo.

I told her that it's important that she do what's right for her, than be untrue to herself. Both in regard to September, and in life. But that part of her growing in strength recently is that she is able to verbalise something like that. And she's on the way to being able to make those kind of decisions, without being influenced by whether other are 'disappointed' by her choices. 

She also said that sometimes i'm 'hard work' during discussions. And that's fair. My mind races around a lot, often way out in left field, and others find it hard to keep up. I get too wrapped up in my own headspace, forgetting that others are along for the ride. 

Now, I could see that as a criticism, and OG may have done. But I'm able to see it for what it is. Something I can think about. Not necessarily change, but bear in mind when interacting with people. Especially when conversing. Ask myself, is this first reply, response, retort the most appropriate one? Sometimes it isn't, as it's often jokey, non sequitur, sometimes even subconsciously designed to throw the conversation off balance. So dial down the speed between head and mouth, allowing a better conversation to take place. 

Good feedback, from someone who thought they couldn't talk to me without causing a fight, in the past. We'e able to actually talk to each other without pi$$ing each other off.

Which is a vast improvement for us as we both come from a history of being told we're 'wrong' so often. 

And obviously when two people who are not good about expressing how they feel, and when they do, it's to a partner who instantly feels 'threatened' by that expression, it doesn't (or didn't) end well. 

That's improving. We communicate, and listen, better, to each other. But it's not always easy. Case in point, as we were leaving mine this evening, literally ready and walking out the door, to walk her home and collect my bike, waw decided it was necessary to clean up some bits n pieces from the kitchen counter and out them away. 

I told it was OK, that I would finish it up when I got back. Which flared her up. To her it was important that she do this. To do something nice (square the kitchen away) before she left. By telling her she didn't need to do that, was denying her what she felt to be important. To her, it feels like I do a lot to 'please her' but don't allow her to reciprocate. And I struggled with just accepting that. To me, it was not required for her to square away my house before she left. I eventually let it go, but felt like I was giving something up by not having my point accepted. 

Which, 1/2 hour later, just felt LB. And lame. 

But as I said to her, our problem, in the past, is not the lovey dovey stuff, we have that down. Always have. It's when we fail to mesh. When we both have a point of view, but neither of us are able to accept the other side, or compromise. We ended up doing whatever it took, to 'win'. And making the other feel like cr*p if we felt like we'd 'lost', or not been listened to. "If I'm not happy, you're not going to be either". 

We've dealt better with it when that comes up, recently. But, again as I said to waw, going forward we will need to work on that, improve it, if this new relationship is to be sustained. And that will include MC.

I wonder if the "Don't tell me not to clean up before I leave", and her occasion small flare ups are some form of S test. 

Do I think she consciously does it? No. I think it comes from a feeling she has, of inbalance. That I hold more 'power' in the relationship right now. She is currently struggling with what she is dealing with in therapy, as well as trying to figure out what she wants, who is is, and her finances. I get the impression that she finds me having it more 'together', than she does since the separation. Maybe more than she expected. 

That may sound like I'm tooting my own horn, but I've put a lot of work into me, and she see's the results. It's probably confusing to her, as she remembers who she used to be with, and who I am now. So she is trying to find out who this guy is. If she can believe in who I am now, if she can trust in the changes. She definitely likes this guy, but was married to someone... else previously. 

I used to be belittle her, diminish her, left her feeling alone. Hard to write, but true. Now I take care of her, look after her, she feels 'safe'. 

Earlier that day we had to go grocery shopping, but waw confessed to being a little short of cash right now, due to messing up her utilities account at the apt. When we got to the store I said I would take care of her groceries for the week. She obviously had a hard time accepting that, but as I explained to her, I recently got a healthy refund from my utilities due to an overpayment. An overpayment that probably occurred when we were still together. So essentially it was our money.

Was I bailing her out? That could be said, but OTOH, OG may have kept the money. LB may have said "FU, you're on your own". I chose not to take either path. I'm not the same guy I was going into this separation. 

I've paid for the recent outings, the holidays, the dinners (for the most part). With the project income, regular OT, side work, my slightly better salary, I'm in better financial shape than she is. 

It's thing's like that that make her may make her feel like I have the 'power', the upper hand, but that's not my goal. I've been very careful to check myself to make sure I'm not trying to be 'better' than her. 

To me, it's about dating the woman I want to be with. Not by saying "I'm doing better than you", but doing the things I should have done, but failed to do so for too many years. Financially, emotionally, lovingly. And it is confusing to her. IMO. 

So if she is testing me, it's to reassure herself that it's OK to let herself fall for me again.


----------



## farsidejunky

I am not sure what I am hearing is trying to please or just general concern for her, but either way you are still choosing to do what your principles say. That is the key to the whole thing, brother, which I know that you know. Sometimes, in the moment it is difficult, but being true to ourselves is the single most important factor in all of this.

What I see as a very strong positive is you encouraging her to do the same, brother.


----------



## DayOne

I have to desire to see her struggle, Far. Financially or otherwise. I have no vindictiveness towards waw. 

Anymore.

Because i'm not him anymore. waw does tell me I try to please her too much. Which I don't get. To me, i'm just being a better man than I was. A better husband than I was.


----------



## DayOne

But I do worry that I will fall into the trap of thinking everything is OK now. That I can coast for a while. Even backslide. And that'll be fatal.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DayOne said:


> I have to desire to see her struggle, Far. Financially or otherwise. I have no vindictiveness towards waw.
> 
> Anymore.
> 
> Because i'm not him anymore. waw does tell me I try to please her too much. Which I don't get. To me, i'm just being a better man than I was. A better husband than I was.


She doesn't think she deserves the better you, so she pushes back a bit.

Let that comment sink in a bit.... that one needs to marinate


----------



## farsidejunky

Blossom Leigh said:


> She doesn't think she deserves the better you, so she pushes back a bit.
> 
> Let that comment sink in a bit.... that one needs to marinate


Great observation, BL.

Toxic shame rearing it's ugly head.


----------



## DayOne

Took waw to see San Andreas last night. (Sucks, BTW. Remember 2012 the movie? Just as bad as that).

However, waw told me about her therapy session earlier that evening. She'd talked about the inequality discussions we'd had. And that she had struggled with being able to resolve the feelings about it herself. That she had 'shut down' instead of working herself through it. But that she was grateful and appreciative because I'd then come to her and taken charge of finding a way through it. Together, calmly, with no conflict. 

I'm probably not putting it quite right, and so it sounds less than it is, but she's realising that she does 'shut down', often after expressing herself (sometimes loudly!) over whatever is bothering her. Or she just 'shuts down' and seethes. 

(IMO, because she feels 'bad' for expressing herself. She expects to be told she's 'wrong' as that's what she's been used to, her entire life). 

But, 
a) She's realising that's what she does, and working on it. Along with the other issues she's avoided for too long. And I see it happening, in her. 
b) She's trusting in me, to help her. The guy that was a continuation of her life of being put down, belittled, dismissed. But is no longer seen as that. By her. Because she see's me differently. 

We're both changing.


----------



## Chaparral

Have you read the MARRIED MAN SEX LIFE PRIMER linked to below? The reason I'm asking is concern that you may be sublimating your masculinity in order to appease/placate your wife. If that is so it will bachfire.

Did you check out NO MORE MISTER NICE GUY free download to see if that applies to you? Its not really about being nice and MMSLP isn't about sex.


----------



## DayOne

I've read both, thanks.


----------



## Chaparral

The reason is I was wondering why she would be upset with you about straightening the kitchen.. She might feel you were stepping into her territory. Maybe she felt you didn't trust her with it. Etc. It may be a miniscule thing but it says something and for some reason is worrisome.

Maybe she was trying to be territorial or just nice and became irritated with your dismissal.

I didn't care for her moving back timeline comment either. Did that disturb you at all?


----------



## DayOne

It's not her 'territory', it's mine. The house is my space, her apt is her's. That's been made clear between us since the beginning. She still even asks to use the bathroom, or the TV. Or if she can have some of my food!

I was fairly clear (I thought) in the posts above about what happened and the reasons behind it. 

She needed to feel that she can contribute, even in a small way like that, as I do so much for her.

If you want to refer to MMSLP, then my 'MAP' is streets ahead of hers. And she's feeling it. So she wants to ramp up on her side. And that's a good thing. Everything that's happening lately is helping draw her out of her shell. And, TBH, that's something she needs to do. For herself. 

I've found, since finally starting to work on myself, that I'm not quite as fawked up as I thought i was. That I allowed myself to be influenced by how others saw me. I was reflected in their opinions of me. However, I now realise that that reflection is often through a filter of who THEY are. Distorting the image I see. Well, NNMNG! 

Not saying I'm not as bad as some say!  But I no longer just accept that I'm what other people 'tell me' I am.

And that's something I'm now using to help waw move forward. She got into therapy and has been honestly working through a pile of her own issues, denied too long. I support her in that. And I will help her through that. But also maintaining my new 'self'. It's a good thing, for me. To be able to cope with a restarting a relationship that has so many triggers, but be able to remember "no matter what happens, I can handle it". 

And every time I "handle it", I get better at it. It's as much a growing tool for me, as it is for waw. That she's no longer (as) scared of me, of who I was, who I represented, is a huge indicator of how far I'VE come. Affirmation of the progress I've made. It's progress I've made not just with waw, but in my world around me. 

6 months ago, I was in sh*t. waw walked, I was on a final warning at work, and my family had stepped back. From who I was. 

Now, waw is choosing to be near me again, my family too. And I'm an award winning employee, invited to stand by the Team Lead who was about to rubber stamp my pink slip. 

I make no attempts to "win her back". We all know by now that's a fail. It's documented too many times in TAM. I changed me, and she slowly is coming back of her own accord. I give, because I choose to, not to get her to come back. That's fake, and doomed to failure.

She's asked me what would happen if she didn't return in September, and I've been clear both with her and in my own mind, that if she doesn't return then, I will wish her well, and move on.


----------



## Chaparral

Does that mean Sept is a deadline?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

I get the sense that she doesn't trust herself. That she sees the work she still needs while apart. I don't get the sense that its not about wanting or not wanting DayOne


----------



## DayOne

Chaparral said:


> Does that mean Sept is a deadline?


Yes. However that does not appear to be an issue at this time. She's expressed a commitment to returning. I'm just making sure i'm ready for if she doesn't.


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> I get the sense that she doesn't trust herself. That she sees the work she still needs while apart. I don't get the sense that its not about wanting or not wanting DayOne


Can you expand on that please BL?


----------



## Blossom Leigh

DayOne said:


> Can you expand on that please BL?



I see a possibility that she feels a bit overwhelmed by the idea that she might move back before she had done enough personal work. If enough personal work isn't done she fears falling into old patterns if she sees herself as part of this issue. As well as, you are better and she feels she is not, yet. She may feel a bit of an underdog. I feel she sees this work from a distance as beneficial for now and needs it for longer until she feels she has gained enough strength. I may be totally wrong, but because she is worried about disappointing you, I'm hearing feelings of inadequacy.


----------



## Chaparral

I dont see a problem with any visitor wanting to help
Straight up. She may be thinking it was an act of ala hnhn.


----------



## DayOne

Chaparral said:


> I dont see a problem with any visitor wanting to help
> Straight up. She may be thinking it was an act of ala hnhn.


----------



## Chaparral

DayOne said:


>


Sorry about the post on my phone.:nerd: I meant to say, I wouldn't mind any visitor helping me straighten up after a visit. Her trying to help would be an act of service according to the book HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS. 

Its OK to tell them "you don't need to do that," but just as being polite. Accept the help and give them thanks. No big deal.

The other comment was about possibly unconciously marking her territory. A refusal to let her help could be seen as a rebuff to her wifely senses or even her competence.


----------



## DayOne

It's more to do with waw sensing an imbalance in the force. I do more for her than she does for me (now). In part because I've never been very good at accepting help. Something I need to work on. 

I actually get where she's coming from on that. I've paid for the recent holidays, concerts, evenings out. I'm in a better place to be able to support her, emotionally. She's grown to lean on me to help her work through what she has going on, as she opens a lot of locked doors in therapy. And that's fine. Previously I disregarded her problems (and my own), wasn't there to help. Had no interest in making our marriage work.

I'm not the man she left. But I am the one she's drawn back to. But it's throwing her off, she still remembers him, and is nervous about his return.

Something she mentioned tonight was that she is afraid I will throw these expressed feelings of hers back in her face. Belittle her for opening up, destroy her new found trust. And I can see why she'd be afraid of that. There's a long history of me making that mistake. 

I need to continue to work on NOT being the d1ck she and everyone around me knew, and she needs to work on not feeling attacked by everyone she knows.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

She won't return until she feels equipped for future failures. She does see new consistency, but right now she is afraid of what if. When she gains skills in that spot she will return with confidence. Thats my prediction, unless something derails it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Thinkitthrough

Day One: I would never have wished a journey like yours on any one, but am thankful that you decided to take us along. You and the other posters have been more helpful to me than you will know. Thank you, and all the best.


----------



## DayOne

A good weekend with waw, camping with friends, and hiking the Lake District (me, not waw, bad knees). Only one small hiccup just as we were arriving back in town. I offered to drop her off and then go home and unpack, air the tent, etc. 

She didn't really say anything at the time, but when we arrived at mine she was kinda getting all dramatic. Being snippy, throwing the tent poles around. Defences were way up. 

Instead of reacting (the old escalation game), I just asked what was wrong, and then asked her to come to me and I held her and waited.

It took her a while to relax and realise that this wasn't going to be a fight, and eventually she opened up. She'd felt like I was dismissing her, pushing her away, making her feel like I'd just assumed she wouldn't want to help clean up after the weekend. And because of that she felt had no value. Was 'bad'.

It is a legacy item, tbh, from before. I am kinda "i'll just take care of it, no help required". Not a good trait for me to have, especially when paired with someone who has strong triggers about feeling ignored, put to one side, too often in her life. 

Something I need to work on, to realise that even when I may not need the help to accept it anyway. In this case, she knew I was in pain from the weekend and all the driving (650 miles) and wanted to help, and I'd rejected that offer. That's on me.

I was almost postal on the way home from being so tired and hurting. 300+ miles home in traffic in a non -automatic car wore my dead legs out. And It took 2 hours more than I originally thought to battle down to Leicester to visit my brother on the way. By the time we got back to mine I was exhausted. But I made it clear to waw (who was shutting down as she was seeing 'old, angry me" in her head), that it wasn't her, I was just venting.

But, because we dealt with the situation differently, NOT escalated, we were able to work it out. I listened instead of shut down, and she was able to open up instead of shut down. 

Took a few minutes to resolve the problem, instead of days of cold war with no real resolution. She came to me later and apologised for having the tantrum. 


Apart for that, we'd done really well all weekend. A LOT of unforced free flowing discussion on the road, and a lot of laughing. Usually car rides are silent. Things are continuing to change.



But there is still a fear, of my disapproval, of her. We'd planned on going to the gym tonight (i'm a glutton for punishment perhaps!), but she called to ask if she could go out for a catch up coffee with a girlfriend. 

I could hear the nervousness in her voice when she asked if it was OK. (made me feel like a heel). Told her it was fine, that i'm learning to be flexible, she's learning to use her voice. It's all good. 

In my head I could hear the alternate old guy version of the conversation, "we've made plans, they can't be changed!" and went the opposite way.

I could tell by the lightness in her voice. She's happy as she has 'permission' to be herself, my legs are ecstatic not to be going to the gym, and we still go tomorrow after her counselling (which is when we usually go anyway).

Why was it so hard to be as simple as this before?!

It's like her work email. I'd emailed her hours ago to let her know we'd meet at her's. Heard nothing back. OG would be all steamed over feeling ignored. I just texted her later instead, to be sure.

She called right back. Her emails have been down all day. OG would have been pi££ed over nothing. 

I'm doing this right!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Standing Ovation!

My H too called me over to him during high anxiety and just loved on me and I melted into him. It works WONDERS. That's when I knew he was figuring things out.

Awesome for y'all!!


----------



## DayOne

Thanks BL. 

Goofed last night.
Was supposed to meet waw for the gym, but messed it up. I went straight there instead of going to hers (as I'd arranged with her by text). She got worried when I didn't show up. She even went to mine and I wasn't there. She got very worried as I'm usually very punctual.
She found me as I walked home from the gym. She was worried I'd be mad at her. OG style.

He probably would have tried to make it her fault. Blame her for his screwup.

I didn't. I owned it, accepted it. Went down on bended knee right there on the street (not easy right now!) and kissed her hand.
She was just afraid I would be mad at her. I could see it in her as she walked up to me. Rips my heart out to see what I've done.


----------



## farsidejunky

That was great, D1. You handled it like a pro. 

But let's talk about the internals... And here comes the 2x4...










And you are all like "WTF?"...

>

What the hell is it going to take to forgive yourself???

Are you afraid that forgiving yourself will cause you to revert?

Carrying that baggage was necessary for a time because you had to realize who you did not want to be. But now that you have figured out who you do want to be, you are still lugging that crap around.

If you went to church I would tell you to leave it at the altar because God doesn't want you to carry it any longer. You have been convicted and have given atonement. Given that is not your schtick, you need to find a way to LET IT GO.

That needs to be your new focus, tough guy.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Farside is right... though grieving what happened has its place, it needs to be balanced with forgiveness of self over time.


----------



## DayOne

True. Thanks.


----------



## jld

D1, could you take a look at the "My wife thinks she is in love with a co-worker" thread in Considering Divorce or Separation? 

I would link it if I could, but my iPad is not allowing it for some reason. Thank you.


----------



## DayOne

A good Saturday evening (local beer festival), with a couple of flare ups. 

waw is of the opinion that I "never" accept help from her, and 'always' push my help onto her. This came from a minor offer of help during the evening. But elicited a strong reaction. She may have a point, I'm still not great at accepting help. However, in this instance I genuinely didn't need it. Stuck to my guns and stayed on this particular instance instead of going down the "list of times I've accepted her help" route. She still wasn't happy, but as I didn't escalate there wasn't anywhere for her to go on it. So it fizzled out.

And that I need to 'back off' telling her what to wear. I want her to improve her wardrobe, a lot of her stuff is old, not flattering. But i've been pushing it on her, before she's ready. She has a poor body image and doesn't feel ready to upgrade her clothes. So my pushing is not helping. It's making her feel that I'm being controlling. And I think she is right.

It led us onto discussing controlling Vs Dom. And I looked back over the last few weeks, and realised that I'm drifting into being controlling outside the bedroom, and not dom in the bedroom. Something she's noticed. I'm pushing during the day, then beta-ing at night. To the point where she has to initiate, then hand it back to me. Not a good direction. Making the mistake of thinking control is being dom. Time for some self 2x4ing. As waw again told me, she wants to be dommed, in the bedroom, but not out. A hard boundary. And TBH, a good one. So I can have fun being 'in control', but not all the time, as I'm still not handling it well.


What was different about last night, was that even after bringing up area's of friction, potential conflict, there was no heat, atmosphere. We discussed it, stated our sides, then moved on. And neither of us bunkered up. A vast improvement. 

And then we went home and had a d*mn good session.


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> D1, could you take a look at the "My wife thinks she is in love with a co-worker" thread in Considering Divorce or Separation?
> 
> I would link it if I could, but my iPad is not allowing it for some reason. Thank you.



I have looked, jld. Not sure what you're asking. She's stepped out of the marriage. He's desperate to rugsweep. Even willing to accept being her cuckold rather than 'lose her' (although he already has) 

Until one of them chooses to pull their own head out of their a$$, it's not going to change.


----------



## jld

DayOne said:


> I have looked, jld. Not sure what you're asking. She's stepped out of the marriage. He's desperate to rugsweep. Even willing to accept being her cuckold rather than 'lose her' (although he already has)
> 
> Until one of them chooses to pull their own head out of their a$$, it's not going to change.


It seemed similar to your situation, minus the infidelity. I know you have worked on yourself a lot in the last year. I thought he might be inspired by your example.


----------



## DayOne

jld said:


> It seemed similar to your situation, minus the infidelity. I know you have worked on yourself a lot in the last year. I thought he might be inspired by your example.


It's nothing like my situation. Yeah, he was a jerk, like me. But she didn't step away to get her head straight like waw, his 'wife' chose "pursue a new life with this man". AKA, to jump on another guys ****. 

And he hasn't taken the path of working on himself, he's just trying to win her back, 'nice her back'. Fail. 

His only real option is a) grow a pair, b) to file, and c) go as 180 as kids will allow. D) Blow up the affair to family and co-workers. 

Put her firmly out in the freezing cold of reality. See how long is takes for the fog to clear.

If, IF that was our situation, I'd be wishing waw well in her new life, and moving on with mine. Adios Amiga!


----------



## jld

DayOne said:


> It's nothing like my situation. Yeah, he was a jerk, like me. But she didn't step away to get her head straight like waw, his 'wife' chose to jump on another guys ****.
> 
> And he hasn't taken the path of working on himself, he's just trying to win her back, 'nice her back'. Fail.
> 
> His only real option is a) grow a pair, b) to file, and c) go as 180 as kids will allow. D) Blow up the affair to family and co-workers.
> 
> Put her firmly out in the freezing cold of reality. See how long is takes for the fog to clear.


That jerk part is what made me think you could help him. You turned yourself around, and I thought he could learn from your example.


----------



## DayOne

He accepts that he has been one, but needs to realise that he won't 'win her back'. Which has been stated numerous times so far in the thread, and he doesn't yet hear it. I might try and put something together later.


----------



## jld

DayOne said:


> He accepts that he has been one, but needs to realise that he won't 'win her back'. Which has been stated numerous times so far in the thread, and he doesn't yet hear it. I might try and put something together later.


I appreciate your willingness to try, D1.


----------



## DayOne

I may not be gentle. He needs a 2x4ing.


----------



## jld

DayOne said:


> I may not be gentle. He needs a 2x4ing.


What did you tell him that has not already been said?


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> What did you tell him that has not already been said?


What would you tell him that he has not already heard?


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> What would you tell him that he has not already heard?


D1 did a lot of work on himself in the last year, independent of his wife. Describing it is the special value D1 could bring to that man's thread.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> D1 did a lot of work on himself in the last year, independent of his wife. Describing it is the special value D1 could bring to that man's thread.


D1 did it for himself.

This guy on the thread is doing it to win his wife back.

That is a fail before it is even started.


----------



## jld

Far, D1's wife left him. What choice did he have?

And I don't know why you guys are getting so hung up on the affair. It is just a symptom of a bigger problem.


----------



## farsidejunky

It is not a symptom, but a secondary infection that must be treated simultaneously. 

He must kill the affair while improving himself.

In order to do that he must understand how to treat both.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> It is not a symptom, but a secondary infection that must be treated simultaneously.
> 
> He must kill the affair while improving himself.


I think improving himself, all on its own, will kill the affair.


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> I think improving himself, all on its own, will kill the affair.


I see it differently.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Far, D1's wife left him. What choice did he have?
> 
> And I don't know why you guys are getting so hung up on the affair. It is just a symptom of a bigger problem.


Geez. Again w/ this naive tripe.

An affair -- especially one in which the APs have indicated the degree of attachment exhibited by the WW in that thread -- is indicative of an extreme degree of detachment on a WS's part.

If that guy has been abusive or neglectful, or hasn't provided, or has been known to drink, gamble, or party to excess, or whatever, then yes... he needs to cut all of that sh*t out. And IMMEDIATELY. But not to win back the affection of a wife that cast aside her marital vows and -- in doing so -- put the health, safety, and security of her children at risk, but to become a better man, a better father, and a better husband. And, if in doing that, he can win back the affection of his WW, then that's all the better.

But doing any of that w/ for the purposes of meeting that specific goal... and all while she's refused to give up her affair? It's pathetic, and the odds of any REAL success would be stacked against him -- and hilariously so -- from the start.

Anyway, end of threadjack. Let's discuss it over there.


----------



## jld

I understand a wife's affair hurts a man's pride, Gus. Maybe it hurt D1's pride that his wife left him, too.

But he did not let it define him. D1 started to look at himself honestly and changed what he did not like. I think his sharing his experience with others new to self-improvement could be helpful. And it was the point of my asking him to participate on that thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> I see it differently.


I know. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> I understand a wife's affair hurts a man's pride, Gus. Maybe it hurt D1's pride that his wife left him, too.


There's more to it than that, especially when the WS has expressed a desire to leave his or her family for the AP.



jld said:


> But he did not let it define him. D1 started to look at himself honestly and changed what he did not like. I think his sharing his experience with others new to self-improvement could be helpful. And it was the point of my asking him to participate on that thread.


I get that. And I agree, D1's input w/ respect to changing habits could very well be invaluable to that guy.

Well, just so long as he leaves the "...but if I'd discovered that my wife were having an affair, I'd have told her to go f*ck herself..." bit out of his commentary.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> There's more to it than that, especially when the WS has expressed a desire to leave his or her family for the AP.


Big talk. I seriously doubt a young single guy is doing anything more than using her.

D1, I hope you will consider sharing more of your own internal struggles with gridcom. I think he would appreciate hearing your experience.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## DayOne

GusPolinski said:


> Well, just so long as he leaves the "...but if I'd discovered that my wife were having an affair, I'd have told her to go f*ck herself..." bit out of his commentary.


Yes and no. Grid still has his WW pedestalized. So he's not seeing her as being in the wrong. "Go fk yourself" might be the 2x4 she needs to knock her out of the fog.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Big talk. I seriously doubt a young single guy is doing anything more than using her.


Doesn't matter. No one wants someone else's leftovers.

Some will settle for them, though.


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Doesn't matter. No one wants someone else's leftovers.
> 
> Some will settle for them, though.


Your wife cheated on you, right? Do you really consider her someone's leftovers?

D1, yes, they may end up divorced. He said she was ready to sign divorce papers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## farsidejunky

jld said:


> Big talk. I seriously doubt a young single guy is doing anything more than using her.
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


And the sooner the affair is killed, the sooner she will see it that way. Until then, she is gone.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Your wife cheated on you, right? Do you really consider her someone's leftovers?
> 
> D1, yes, they may end up divorced. He said she was ready to sign divorce papers.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


My wife engaged in EAs. When I uncovered them, I told her that she had two choices -- "me" or "not me".

"Me" meant cutting out all the bullsh*t and _fully_ recommitting to the marriage. She willingly and enthusiastically gave up social media, passwords to everything (which I actually already had), and both accepted and understood that it would take some time for the trust to fully return.

I also admitted that I'd been neglectful and immediately began working to address that. (In truth, I began addressing it about 18 months before that... before either of her EAs began.)

"Not me" could've meant whatever the f*ck she wanted it to mean, but it wouldn't have included me at all. We'd have divorced as amicably as possible, split everything 50/50, I'd have helped her move into an apartment, bought her a plane ticket, or whatever... and then we'd be done w/ each other, immediately and forever.

If, however, I'd caught her in or discovered a *PHYSICAL* affair, she wouldn't have had any choices at all. We'd have divorced, and that would've been the end of us.


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Your wife cheated on you, right? Do you really consider her someone's leftovers?
> 
> D1, yes, they may end up divorced. He said she was ready to sign divorce papers.


Then he'd be wise to present her w/ them.


----------



## jld

farsidejunky said:


> And the sooner the affair is killed, the sooner she will see it that way. Until then, she is gone.


How is she gone?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> My wife engaged in EAs. When I uncovered them, I told her that she had two choices -- "me" or "not me".
> 
> "Me" meant cutting out all the bullsh*t and _fully_ recommitting to the marriage. She willingly and enthusiastically gave up social media, passwords to everything (which I actually already had), and both accepted and understood that it would take some time for the trust to fully return.
> 
> I also admitted that I'd been neglectful and immediately began working to address that. (In truth, I began addressing it about 18 months before that... before either of her EAs began.)
> 
> "Not me" could've meant whatever the f*ck she wanted it to mean, but it wouldn't have included me at all. We'd have divorced as amicably as possible, split everything 50/50, I'd have helped her move into an apartment, bought her a plane ticket, or whatever... and then we'd be done w/ each other, immediately and forever.
> 
> If, however, I'd caught her in or discovered a *PHYSICAL* affair, she wouldn't have had any choices at all. We'd have divorced, and that would've been the end of us.


Did she ever say why she had the affairs? Or what made her decide to stay with you?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jld

GusPolinski said:


> Then he'd be wise to present her w/ them.


Let him know that. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## GusPolinski

jld said:


> Did she ever say why she had the affairs? Or what made her decide to stay with you?


Yep.


----------



## DayOne

Solo at the gym today, bored, so messed with the resident instructor's head. 

"where's your lady friend today?"

"ahhh, she couldn't make it".


"you guys together?"


"welll, it's kinda complicated. She's married, I'm married. So we meet up here at the gym a couple times a week... and sleep together at the weekends...."










>


----------



## GusPolinski

LOL


----------



## DayOne

Had to have my other dog, Chino, put to sleep last Friday, 8 months after Putting Bella down. Buried her next to her buddy in the woods.

It's put me in a dark place, so not been around here much. Finding it hard to find traction.


----------



## DayOne

Not a good evening. waw showed up, straight from work, via the store (i'd asked she buy her own wine/iced tea this weekend) with an 'atmosphere' around her. I didn't inquire straight away, just welcomed her and offered to make her dinner while she chilled out and had a glass of of wine on the couch. (she is suffering from sciatica this week) 

Instead she stayed in the kitchen and we chatted. My dinner was about ready, but i got her tortellini boiling and grated cheese before I served mine up and sat down to eat. She got pissy as she had to serve it up herself. And then again when she asked me to bring her more wine and I only handed her the bottle instead of pouring it for her. 

After dinner I said I felt something was up. There is. Apparently she feels 'inconvenienced' that she has to be the one to come to me, every weekend. Which means she has to make sure she has her clothes ready and chores at hers done before she comes over as she is gone all weekend. 

And that she doesn't feel 'appreciated' for that effort. Of coming to mine to be together. 

That's it's unequal because she has to come to me, be here (in.OUR.house...) instead of me going to hers. That I won't go to her place because it makes me uncomfortable. 

I offered that if it was important to her, I would come there. For an evening, or during the day. I won't be there when youngest son is there as I don't think he will respond well to my being there. And I won't stay overnight for the same reason. 

And that she didn't have to stay here the whole weekend. We could just have a day, or an evening instead over the weekend. There's no obligation to be here the whole time. 

She feels it's 'expected'. That's there's an expectation for her to be here. I disagreed. It might be a routine we've fallen into, but it doesn't have to be that way. 

She also feels that this isn't her 'space', it's mine. A 'bachelor pad' was the term she used. Because there's nothing of 'her' here. I said that 5 days a week it is my space, but when she's here I feel it's ours. That I appreciate her being here, and enjoy it when she is. 

But she kept pushing, eventually I told that I've said clearly how I feel, but she wasn't budging from her opinion, in which case it was her problem, not mine. If she wanted to talk it through, I'd listen. 


Instead, she left. 

So there you go. A bit of 'drama' for a Friday night post instead of pixie dust and unicorns. Questions, discussions, 2x4's appreciated.


----------



## farsidejunky

Give her some space, brother.

She will come to you.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Give her some space, brother.
> 
> She will come to you.


She has a bug up her a$$ about something. I didn't get sh1tty about the way the conversation went, or 'angry'. And when she left I wished her well and said I'd be available when she wanted to try talking again. Sent her the usual 'goodnight' text and received one back. 

So now I'll just get on with my weekend.


----------



## DayOne

But I also didn't beta up, kiss her a$$, and apologise profusely for doing whatever it is that made her upset, even though she doesn't even know what it is (yet).

For which I was told I was being arrogant.


----------



## farsidejunky

DayOne said:


> But I also didn't beta up, kiss her a$$, and apologise profusely for doing whatever it is that made her upset, even though she doesn't even know what it is (yet).
> 
> For which I was told I was being arrogant.


I don't really see the inconsiderate part, but JLD could probably nail that down better. 

It feels like a sh!t test for that reason


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> It feels like a sh!t test for that reason


I agree. The majority of the evening seemed to be about finding fault. With me. Maybe she's nervous about Sept suddenly being around the corner.


----------



## farsidejunky

DayOne said:


> I agree. The majority of the evening seemed to be about finding fault. With me. Maybe she's nervous about Sept suddenly being around the corner.


Could be. When she comes to you have some open ended questions ready about possible anxiety over it


----------



## DayOne

Will do. Also need to ask her whether she's moving back to be with me, or just so she's doesn't have to feel alone. Comments she's made raise a concern.


----------



## farsidejunky

DayOne said:


> Will do. Also need to ask her whether she's moving back to be with me, or just so she's doesn't have to feel alone. Comments she's made raise a concern.


Yep. You have a difficult conversation ahead. This one won't be easy for you to maintain because it will be touching upon something that is pretty sensitive for you.

Just be prepared and rely on what you have learned over the last year. You will do great, D1.


----------



## DayOne

It's something we both have to consider, Far. Whether we actually want to pick this back up, full time. Live with each other again. TBH, i've gotten used to the 'single' life over the last 10 months. Seen that there are other options out there. None of which i'm exploring of course. At least, not until we agree on if this is going to proceed.


----------



## farsidejunky

DayOne said:


> It's something we both have to consider, Far. Whether we actually want to pick this back up, full time. Live with each other again. TBH, i've gotten used to the 'single' life over the last 10 months. Seen that there are other options out there. None of which i'm exploring of course. At least, not until we agree on if this is going to proceed.


Which is exactly why you are now healthy enough to have this discussion.


----------



## Chaparral

DayOne said:


> It's something we both have to consider, Far. Whether we actually want to pick this back up, full time. Live with each other again. TBH, i've gotten used to the 'single' life over the last 10 months. Seen that there are other options out there. None of which i'm exploring of course. At least, not until we agree on if this is going to proceed.


Maybe she's getting the feeling you're not that into her any more. Maybe what you're seeing is insecurity. Otoh , she may be feeling like she likes living alone too but I doubt that's it.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks for posting, Chap. Maybe there is some insecurity. My 'MAP' for want of a better expression is still advancing, whereas she is kinda stagnating. Doing well at work, applying for better jobs, ramping up the gym routines, getting out and meeting new people, completing projects around the house, the yards have never looked so good. Bumper fruit crops this year. 

Maybe she thought I'd fall apart when she left, break down and be willing to be whatever she wanted me to be. The opposite has been true. I haven't felt this motivated in years. She's not seeing the guy she bailed on. She's seeing someone who no longer _needs_ her, but rather wants her.

As far as living alone. She hates it. Brings it up frequently how lonely she feels. The other night she had a girl friend sleep over (not in that way, TAM filters off please! ) and said how much better it felt not to be alone in her house. 

I don't like an empty house either, but having someone around would be a want, not a need.


----------



## Decorum

Chaparral said:


> Maybe she's getting the feeling you're not that into her any more. Maybe what you're seeing is insecurity. Otoh , she may be feeling like she likes living alone too but I doubt that's it.


Humm...sounds like she wants an invite to move back in.


----------



## DayOne

Decorum said:


> Humm...sounds like she wants an invite to move back in.


That's already on the cards. Her lease is up in Sept, and she's wanting to come back.


----------



## Decorum

DayOne said:


> That's already on the cards. Her lease is up in Sept, and she's wanting to come back.


My bad you even mentioned it a few posts back.

Is she just trying to affect the "power" or equilibrium of the relationship, not exactly rugssweeping but trying to get on a more equal footing with you?


----------



## DayOne

Decorum said:


> Is she just trying to affect the "power" or equilibrium of the relationship, not exactly rugsweeping but trying to get on a more equal footing with you?


I think there's something to that. As I mentioned above she may be feeling 'out MAPped', off balanced.

Something to bear in mind, thanks.


----------



## DayOne

Everything on hold for a while. Buried my dog last week (2nd dog I had to put down in 8 months), and my dad passed away this morning. 

waw standing by my side through all this. That's all I need her to be right now.


----------



## GusPolinski

DayOne said:


> Everything on hold for a while. Buried my dog last week (2nd dog I had to put down in 8 months), and my dad passed away this morning.
> 
> waw standing by my side through all this. That's all I need her to be right now.


Ah man. Sorry to hear that.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Sorry for the losses D1 


Be careful that since she is trying to affect the balance of your relationship, that she doesn't pull you backwards. YOU are healthy enough, but she isn't yet. Allow enough time for her to rise to your level of health. Moving in before that is a set up for failure unless you can detach in a healthy way living in tight quarters.


----------



## DayOne

Just an update: 

Been an up and down week or two, emotionally. Trouble concentrating, staying on task. But getting by. Been posting up on TAM, but just as an outlet. Not really able to get introspective on my own situation. Every time I try, my mind just slides sideways, away from what I'm trying to focus on. But, I'm putting that down to being part of the 'process' (of recent events) and not beating myself up over it. 

Hitting the gym nightly as well as exercising at home has helped burn off my 'angry' energy, so I'm able to stay calm. The emotion I should probably be feeling over my dad passing seems to be staying locked up. Or I genuinely had already said 'goodbye' years ago when he failed to step up after I laid out how I felt about him choosing NOT to be in my life.

Either way, I'm indifferent to him being dead. Which seems to be a cause for concern with my family. So I should probably address that, internally. 

Work is going 'OK'. Had a mid year review which was very positive. In line for team lead permanently should the opportunity arise. But for now, still stand-in team lead when he's on vacation. A complete 180 from last year, so i'm taking that as good progress. Also being 'groomed' for a couple of opportunities within the company, including taking over a troublesome client in London as onsite support after the local crew pi$$ed them off. 

Been 'dry' for a couple of weeks as well. Enjoying that. Quit the fruit juice as well. Was drinking way too much. Now just soda water all day, with an occasional iced tea. 

Went to get mu Cialis prescription renewed only to find out its not actually available on NHS prescription, unless by private prescription (IE not subsidised), which makes it £££. The Dr fked up (in my favour) when she gave it to me before. Appointment to see the Dr on Monday as viagra(generic) IS on prescription (subsidised). Shame, as the Cialis was helping. 

So, yeah. That's it really. Just ticking along, accepting that right now I have to 'coast' for a while. 'Process' the deaths in my life and then find traction again.


----------



## giddiot

Hey don't sweat feeling indifferent. I lost my mother years ago and still feel indifferent. I was always close with my mother also but she said some things to me at the end which didn't sit very well and then she was gone. It has bothered me that I have no feelings about it but it is what it is. I think I repressed it to handle the situation and have never let it out again.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Be patient with yourself... grieving has a cycle that is normal. Familiarize yourself with its patterns and it will help you be kind to yourself when you recognize them.


----------



## DayOne

Just an update: 

Still around. Head getting a little clearer. Was an 'ok' weekend. Took Wife out Friday night for live music, where we had a good talk, including some normally contentious subjects, without any problems.

She's worried I'm not letting her in, right now, because I was there for her with both her parents passing and she doesn't feel like she's allowed to be there for me. I told her I appreciate her concerns, and that I also appreciate her reaching out. That I know she's there, she's not 'invisible' to me (something she felt before D-Day). 

Also spent time people watching. Checking out women (both of us. Free pass to check out ladies, oh yeah!). Had a lot of fun with that. She wanted my opinion on the outfits being worn. So I slipped into the "gay best friend" persona and we had a good 'Joan Rivers' session! Led into a discussion about body image. She knows she has a lot of weight to lose, and feels self concious about it. She also mentioned (for the 1st time that I recall) wanting breast reduction. She'd a DD and has always wanted to be smaller. 

Dropped her at her home afterwards.

Saturday morning, met Wife in town, went suit shopping. Got this, but have to get it altered. 

Trouble with being my shape is that the top half is WAY bigger than the bottom. While the waistcoat and jacket fit really well (17" neck, 42" chest ), the matching pants are a 36 waist", so the alterers are having to take in 2.5". I'm getting my other suit done as well. Getting the jacket tapered and trousers reduced. It USED to fit me, back when I was a lot bigger (read: fatter), so great to have to get it made smaller.

Met my Mum for coffee, left Wife with her to go shopping. 

Kept myself busy around the house the rest of the weekend. Little jobs, but kept my head active. 

Gym with Wife Sunday morning. She hasn't been for a couple weeks due to sciatica. And she's (finally) been diagnosed with degenerative arthritis in her knees, and referred on to a physio. So she has to find exercises that don't tax her knees, and do the suggested ones that build up her thigh muscles, which will help her knees. 

Took her to breakfast, walked her home. Kept busy all day. Did have a 'moment' while thinking about my dad and the regrets. Allowed myself to feel that. 

Then met Wife and walked her to dinner where we met up with oldest son and his girlfriend. A good evening out. 

Youngest son is NOT moving back in Sept. He's moving in with his fiancées family. Only time Wife and I came close to falling out was while discussing him. So we backed off. 

But she's definitely committed to coming home. WANTS to come home.


Not very exciting, relationship wise. But I've (we've) got to get from here, to there, first. Fix the marriage, the relationship, the trust and communication before we move on to better things.


----------



## DayOne

Soooo, funeral went off OK (last Thursday). As funerals go. My brother and I got to be pallbearers. That got to me. Funny the things you think about at the time. I just kept thinking, "[email protected]! They used some cheap a$$ed wood on this thing. Bottom is chipboard"

Turns out that because he 'served' (National Service) in the RAF he got to have a flag draped coffin and "The Last Post" ("Taps", to you guys) played by a bugler which was nice.

Met a whole ton of people that I never knew, and some I haven't seen in 30 years. Reconnected with my Belgian cousins (Dad's Sisters 'kids'), so there may be trips to Bruges and Brussels in the future. 

MrsD1 was great. Knew when to be close when I needed it, and give me space when I needed it. I leaned on her, and she saw me accept it, which she loved. She only 'lost it' when she watched the hearse come up the driveway, as it reminded her of her parents funerals.

She's been here for three nights now. And it's been all good. Even with the exhaustion we've both had from all that's going on, there's been no problems. No taking out our emotions on each other. Just working it out between us. And we even ended our 2 week dry spell!

She had to work yesterday (Friday) but I had the day off (bosses orders), so I went out to the woods and went all Dexter on a pile of deadfall trees. Have loads of wood for the firepit and burnt off any negative energy. 

I did also have to re-bury bits of Bella (the first dog) while I was there, as something (badger or fox) had dug down the 4' and snacked. Kinda sucked but OTOH a) I'm not a believer in the rainbow bridge, so these were just bones to me, b) circle of life and all that. But it is why I made a 'mesh' of branches in Chino's grave and covered it with logs. 

Enough funerals and death for a while. Hopefully. Time to move on.


----------



## DayOne

Well, it's official, "waw" will no longer be "waw" as of next month, as she's moving home!


----------



## farsidejunky

It was only a matter of time, brother.

Anyone who followed you knew that.

Just stay vigilant and continue to improve, brother.

She will not be able to resist you.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

Congrats!!!


----------



## aine

Well done and all the best!


----------



## DayOne

Thanks all. 

MrsD1 just wanted reassurance that we both want this. (we do.) But also to ask that she feels like the house is 'ours' again. Right now she feels like I've made it 'mine' by putting all her stuff away. Although she 'gets' why, so I could survive, she does feel unwelcome there. Not a problem. I'll start putting things of hers out again. Also let her know I'd already been thinking about how to make her feel like this is her house, OUR house again, and gave examples. 

For instance, the craft room. A couple years back I turned the smallest bedroom into a craft room for her. She never used it, which caused friction. But I told her WE can make it the craft room again, but that it would be for storage, instead of all in the attic, so she could get to it. But that we would make it work so she could work downstairs if she chose, and that I had ideas (thank you) on making a crafting table for the living room. And that we could work on some projects together. 

She does feel that when she's over, currently, she has nothing to do. No 'purpose'. So, for me, getting her crafting stuff accessible is important. And NOT getting frustrated if she doesn't use it after all the work I put into it. (like I did last time).

I think we crossed that bridge successfully. She's reassured. We're in different places now, and have been better able to talk, without just getting pi$$ed off and fighting. We're both nervous as hell, but want to try again.


----------



## farsidejunky

Nervous? Sure.

But I bet you both have excitement as well, brother.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> Nervous? Sure.
> 
> But I bet you both have excitement as well, brother.


Yes. But we both realise that moving back in together is not the finish line, it's the next stage. We've done well, separated, now it's time to see if we still fit together.


----------



## farsidejunky

Of course.

You may consider having a part of the house as your own space if you will. An area where you (or her) can have all to yourselves should things start to feel crowded or overwhelmed. Her craft room comes to mind for her. I don't know I'd you have a room like that or not.

You may not need that at all, but something to consider.


----------



## DayOne

I have the garage for all my projects, and the firepit for evenings. BUT... won't be using the firepit as a way of avoiding talking to her. Something we'd both do in the past.


----------



## farsidejunky

DayOne said:


> I have the garage for all my projects, and the firepit for evenings. BUT... won't be using the firepit as a way of avoiding talking to her. Something we'd both do in the past.


I agree and that was not where I was going. After being separated, you both have become accustomed to having your own space and time.

The "rooms" could become a surrogate for that if it turns out it is needed.


----------



## DayOne

farsidejunky said:


> I agree and that was not where I was going. After being separated, you both have become accustomed to having your own space and time.
> 
> The "rooms" could become a surrogate for that if it turns out it is needed.


I know what you're saying. And it's something we both acknowledged last night. That we've both gotten used to being alone this last year, in our own spaces. And it's something we'll still need going forward.


----------



## DayOne

Update on the moving back date.

She dropped by last night, briefly and we chatted. We both have vacation time left so we're taking the 7-11th Sept off. She announced that she wants to move back in that week, and asked for my help in doing it.


----------



## Chaparral

Good luck and be strong. Its great to have you doing all this work on yourself and it helps more people than you know.

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## DayOne

Thanks. Nervous, but wanting to work at it.


----------



## DayOne

Just leaving this here:


----------



## DayOne

Moving day, today...


----------



## farsidejunky

It's been a long yet productive year, brother. 

Awesome!


----------



## DayOne

Well, "Day One" has gone well. Spent most of the day prepping and painting the downstairs ceilings. That's not a euphemism BTW! 

It's been a good way to start off. As I explained it to MrsD, the house is filled with moving boxes, and we're painting the place to suit us. So we're to frame it that we're a new couple, moving into together and starting a new life. Transitional. And that's working. 

The move went well. I even took the time to fix the broken stairs at the apt. Called it my 'moving out' present to her, and a 'moving in' present to the youngest and his fiancée. 

Back bedroom is full of her stuff, in boxes for now, and had oldest come over and go through his cr*p in the 3rd bedroom, with the plan to be to turn into a craft room for MrsD. 

No 'christening' of the marriage bedroom last night (both exhausted), but I've told her that will be happening tonight. 

We've also discussed rings and the resuming of wearing of. And we both want to do so, to mark the beginning of this new marriage. So that will also happen this evening.


----------



## DayOne

All still ticking along here in Casa De One (yes I know technically thats "house of one", before the pedants chime in , it's more a play on words for "house of day one") . She and I continue to move forward. Working on the house, mainly the downstairs living and dining area. Ceilings painted, wood floor sanded and first two coats of varnish applied. Made for a long week off, if you throw in moving her stuff back here (another full day).

I even squeezed in an instructed pt session (last minute cancellation, offered to me at a reduction). Beast of a session. But a lot of new ideas and exercises to add in to my workouts. 

I should be exhausted, but I'm not. Just keep finding more energy. On top of everything else we've been doing, I've been turning the 3rd bedroom into a craft room for her. Not entirely altruistic, or beta, she needs space to unpack her stuff, now she has the space. And no excuses for not getting organised and getting back into her projects. 

No problems found so far. A small flare up by her over where the furniture will go once the floor is dry. She thought I was blowing off her ideas, something I have been guilty of in the past. Didn't react, get defensive, or argue. Just asked her to help me understand what she was feeling. Which seemed to defuse that situation. Otherwise all good. She's been very cuddly and touchy. Even found she's been drawing lovehearts on the kitchen whiteboard!


----------



## Blossom Leigh

That "help me understand" is a magical question. We use it too  

Happy for all the progress!!


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> That "help me understand" is a magical question. We use it too
> 
> Happy for all the progress!!


It's a very useful tool! 


And thanks.


----------



## farsidejunky

It is good (not surprising) to see y'all making this work...together.

Keep the eye on trajectory, not the day to day, and y'all will be just fine.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

We are doing extremely well too. We have progressed from arguing almost daily and having a BIG, I mean BIG, did I say BIG? ... blow outs AT LEAST once a week to once every three months, to once every six months and now.... it looks like we will be breaking our six month record. Fights between us are so rare now and SO low key now that they are more the normal tiny spat (if that even) with quick apologies. Just amazing how far we have come. That walking on eggshells and massive escalation is a thing of the past. Our little family has so much fun now. Its exciting to see other couples here heading to healthier interactions and fun!


----------



## DayOne

Blossom Leigh said:


> We are doing extremely well too. We have progressed from arguing almost daily and having a BIG, I mean BIG, did I say BIG? ... blow outs AT LEAST once a week to once every three months, to once every six months and now.... it looks like we will be breaking our six month record. Fights between us are so rare now and SO low key now that they are more the normal tiny spat (if that even) with quick apologies. Just amazing how far we have come. That walking on eggshells and massive escalation is a thing of the past. Our little family has so much fun now. Its exciting to see other couples here heading to healthier interactions and fun!



This. We've yet to have an insurmountable disagreement. Not to say it won't come, but in the last....8? months we've not had a disagreement that can't be resolved. Not something either of us thought we could achieve last year. 

We're a small but happy minority on TAM! :smthumbup:


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## Blossom Leigh

YAY!:grin2:


----------



## DayOne

Having our morning snuggle before getting up and on with the day, when out of the blue she says "Thank you. Thank you for changing". 

A little quote, but meaning so much.


----------



## farsidejunky

DayOne said:


> Having our morning snuggle before getting up and on with the day, when out of the blue she says "Thank you. Thank you for changing".
> 
> A little quote, but meaning so much.


Yet incredibly powerful.


----------



## DayOne

When we decided to move back together, one of my requests was that we have a weekly sitdown and talk. A space for us to check on how things are going and any concerns, needs that should be addressed. 

Went very well.
New processes in place, tried and tested We're both calmer, living in a happier atmosphere, and working together as a team.

When we disagree, or have friction, it just doesn't escalate anymore. We hear each other out, don't bunker up or react. It's different. And we both are so much happier.
She said last night that she can now say if something's bothering her, the reasons behind, and then just let it go. Not hold onto it any longer.

She trusts me, and isn't afraid of me anymore. Also she has realised some of the triggers are her own, not just me. And is working on that.

There's definitely a shift to her accepting instruction. Accepting guidance from me. As I'm no longer seen as domineering. I lead, not push. And she's responding to that.


----------



## Lostinthought61

Glad to hear that Day, this may not be the time, but when you have a few moments, reflect back on this past year, what have you learned about yourself and your interactions with the wife? If you could speak to Dayone on Dayone of this past year what would you have told him?


----------



## DayOne

Xenote said:


> Glad to hear that, Day One, this may not be the time, but when you have a few moments, reflect back on this past year, what have you learned about yourself and your interactions with the wife? If you could speak to Day One on Day one of this past year what would you have told him?


Thanks. I've done plenty of that. And there's been plenty of regret and "if onlys". But, end of the day, what happened, happened. What's important is to take the past and use it. Build on it. Don't forget or dismiss it. Use it as a reference to make better choices. Remember how I might have reacted or dealt with things previously, and choose NOT to go that way this time. 

Last night for instance, I would occasionally feel a small glimmer of feeling "attacked" when she said how she felt. But Knowing that feeling, knowing it was sneaking up, I could stomp it down, empty my fears and just listen instead. Which allowed me to realise that she wasn't 'attacking' me, she was only saying how she felt. Which didn't really have anything to do with me at all.

Funny how that works.


----------



## DayOne

This time last year, I was waking up alone. "Day one" of the separation. On what would have been our 24th anniversary of the day we met.


This year we woke up together, then 'celebrated' our 25th year in a much more enjoyable manner!


----------



## DayOne

Last evening we were going to go to the gym after her counselling session, but she got home and admitted that she didn't go. She stayed at work instead. Because she didn't have the money to pay for the session. But didn't want me to bail her out, again. 

She was worried i'd be mad at her. 

So I grabbed her, pulled her in close, gave her a long long kiss, in 'french', and asked her if she could taste my anger. 

TBF, I was a little disappointed that she didn't come to me first, BUT what I take from that interaction is that she's not afraid to talk to me, even if it's something she thinks will upset me. #Win

She was being cute though. All LG, with lowered eyes and an "i've been naughty" look. 

Nom!


----------



## JohnA

Hi, glad you took the time to check in with mikem. I posted link to this page on his thread and suggested he read itl

I think stores like yours are so rare is not that they are unlikely to happen in general is because one spouse allows a third party into the marriage. 

Big kudos to your wife and you for staying true,


----------



## DayOne

Second "hows it going?" meeting last evening. Went very well. Both still happy. No issues or friction. Made a list of projects, individually and together.

Also was her gym instructor last night. Up in our new 'weight room'. Which was a lot of fun. She wants to firm up her.. chest area. So I took her through some upper body firming exercises. Even got her doing bench presses. 

Pro tip, don't give her the giggles while she's bench pressing! 

I had her do her first bench attempt at an easy 3x10rep at 10kg. Then I did 3x10rep at 50kg. Which made her all googly eyed!  

Also showed her how to do 'lats', 'pec flys' (inclined and flat), dumbell presses, dumbell rows. Then some pushups.

We've turned the back bedroom into a weight/exercise room. And have a morning routine of crunches, push ups, planks, and sit ups.


----------



## DayOne

Goofed at the weekend, which caused a very brief flare up. 

Been throwing my libido about, making 'comments', and innuendos, which was getting to her. And mentioned, in passing, our 'nocturnal activities', to her friend who was staying with us. Which didn't go down well. It's been one of her requests, that we keep bedroom stuff, in the bedroom. 

As soon as I said it, i knew I'd fked up

TBF, we (all three of us) were having a conversation about sex, but I wandered across the line in the moment. And it's one of her limits. NOT to blab about what we do.

On a positive note, She was able to talk to me about it, not just keep it in. And I was able to listen, and respond respectfully. All sorted in a few minutes. Not hours, days like before.


----------



## DayOne

Quiet weekend. Just moving forward all the time. Improving and growing.

BUT.... we did put our rings back on. So now it's official, we are married again.


----------



## DayOne

Just checking in. All quiet here in Casa De Juan. A little too quiet in the evenings at times, but a comfortable quiet not a strained silence. 
Didn't get out together last weekend. In part because she was feeling 'meh', in herself. 
I dug a little to try and help her work on why, but got knocked back ("I'm fine, really. Stop asking!"), so gave her her space and took myself out for breakfast after gym on Sunday and firepitted in Saturday evening just to get some space of my own. I didn't get ticked off over not being able to "fix the problem", but also didn't initiate (sex) as I felt it just wasn't there, for either of us, but was fine with that. 

Our time together is spent 'together', not just in the same space at the same time. Existing. We hang out when we get home, make supper together, talk, eat together. Then work on the house for a while before chilling out, doing our own things, before bed which usually has more chatting. Weekends are GoGoGo, so by the time we do 'down tools' and fall onto the couch, NOT thinking is a welcome break.

I think we both get a little nervous when we're NOT talking, interacting. Shades of pre D-Day, when we avoided each other perhaps. But it's OK to have our own spaces and not "be up in each others space" all the time. It's needed in fact. 

That said, we are becoming complacent in our downtime. Settling back into an old routine. Her watching TV, and me on the PC. NOT the same as before, but also not a rut I want to fall back into. On the plus side, she's not just mindlessly staring at the box, but does crafts. Currently making a blanket for a friend.

So we're going to get more disciplined about doing things together, as well as working on the house, making meals, cleaning up. Have some fun 'downtime' together. 

Nocturnally, things have quieted down. And that's OK. We're closer now, than we have been in a long a$$ed time, so I don't have a need for sex for validation, closeness. I'm not even 'fapping' and then getting pi$$ed off that I have to do so for release. Though I think I will have to set up a session this week, it's overdue! 

We had a long talk and hang out last night, which turned to finances and needing to review them. We managed to survive just fine for a year on single incomes in separate houses, whereas we struggled before in two incomes. So we went over our expenses, bank accounts and saw what was going out and how to improve it. Also moved all standing orders, direct debits into the correct accounts. Our old joint account is now 'my' account, and we have a 'house account. She has her own account (from when she moved out). So we've agreed to both put money into the house account, to pay for all joint expenses (mortgage, utilites, car ins, cable, etc) and pay our individual expenses (phone, fuel, gym, etc) from our own accounts. Found we can easily switch standing orders between accounts, so reorganized that. 

Also found that she'd slightly goofed and put money in the wrong account, which is why I'd had less than I'd expected in 'my' account. So sorted that. 

Also found that she was less well off this month than she thought, so I moved some of my money into her account. Not a lot, but enough to stop her having to worry this month. 

Thing is, we worked on all of this, finance type stuff, for quite while, without once arguing or falling out. This did not used to happen. Money used to be one of our flare up issues. But last night we realised, about an hour in, that we hadn't fallen out. That we'd just sorted it. And instead of just talking about doing it, we'd got up and one it. Right there. Was an ah-ha moment. 


Having said that, she did have a bit of a melt down when I brought up, after everything was squared away, the vacation in Spain earlier in the year. I'd paid for it, with money from the project, but we'd agreed to go halves on it, and she'd pay me back. This seemed to have been forgotten last night as she gave me the rolled eyes and "I don't want this hanging over me. Tell me how much I owe you and i'll pay you back" routine. 

It surprised me how she blew up (and seemed to be thinking I was paying for two holidays, Spain AND Venice), but I stayed firm, reminded her she had wanted to pay her way for Spain, but that I was in no rush to be paid back. That we'd had a great evening, working together on our money, and we shouldn't finish it on a bad note.

Eventually she calmed down, and we finished the evening in a calm atmosphere. 

I figure she got upset because in her mind she had all her bills sorted, so having Spain brought up threw her off and she couldn't process it. Perhaps I shouldn't have raised it, but OTOH she did agree to contribute. And that's only fair. It was a chunk of money i'd earned from the project. A lot of that money went on vacations, for us. Venice was her birthday, so that's on me. But Spain was discussed and agreed. So not quite sure how she's rewired herself to think I was paying for all of it.


----------



## DayOne

Still just ticking along. Have yet to encounter a mood, feeling or discord that we can't talk through within minutes and dissipate. Both of us have weird moments. But we say what we're feeling, talk through it, and help the other one figure it out.

It's weird. Given our history, our way of 'dealing with' problems that came up, in the past, having things running so smoothly is almost a little unnerving. It's all good, but we both have moments where we wonder when it's going to go wrong. Because it always used to.

We're both liking the 'new normal' though. She's flourishing in it. Really a pleasure to watch her grow as she comes further out of her shell. She radiates now, rather than hides herself away. And she's really re-attached to me.

Recently she went back to sleep on the couch after I woke her and told her I was going up. Next morning she got a bit teary, as she'd not come to bed. "I wanted to be with you, and I wasn't".

Was endearing, and a mark of how she wants, needs, to be around me again. This time last year she had been moved out for a month.

We don't 'hide', from each other, in the same way as before. We're a lot more open with each other. We actually talk through things.

Sexually, there's no 'rejection' per se. She initiated the other night, I'm getting used to allowing this, not taking over. Just laying back and letting her do her thing. Was all good, and ended well. She has said she needs this. Be given the opportunity to work on me. And allowing this has helped her be more confident.

A couple days later I initiated early one morning, she wasn't into it. And I could tell she really wasn't. I didn't take it as 'rejection'. Just grinned and moved on. No feeling of being rejected. And this was also all good. No bad atmosphere. No sulking around the house. There was no 'anxiety' for her to feel. So we moved on.

Something that came up at the weekend was that she feels I no longer need her. As in 'need' her. That if she left tomorrow, I'd be just fine. 

And I feel that's true. Before D-Day I 'needed' her. The problem with how I felt (then) was that I based myself on how she saw me. How I 'judged' myself was based on how she was feeling. As long as she was 'happy' (in my mind) then all was OK in the world. I reacted to her moods. Dependant on her 'happiness'.

After D-Day, I realised (with the help of the books and here) that was being untrue to myself. In fact, 'needing' her to be happy, for me to be 'happy' was making me miserable. Being dependant on her was making me lose myself. 

So, no. I don't 'need' her. If she DID leave tomorrow, I'd be heartbroken, but would continue on. 

As well as explaining the above to her, I told her that although I no longer 'need' her, I choose her. 

And she was fine with that. In fact she liked it. A lot. It was "beautiful".


Youngest son 'reached out' last night. By which I mean he sent me an angry text out of the blue (first contact in over a year). 

"why do you feel the need to be such an a$$hole to people around you and treat them like sh!t?"

I've replied back with "What are you talking about", so wait and see what happens. 

M'Lady and I had a VERY brief slightly heated discussion when I told her he'd texted me . She's of the opinion that "he's angry, you need to accept that. Which I get. But if he's going to just vent that anger (which has been violent on occasion), without any thought into why he's angry, that's unacceptable. 

On the bright side, OUR new tools for overcoming difficult situations kicked in and we were able to talk to each other and diffuse our own emotions. Listen to each other. No residual anger. Even started to fool around when we got to bed. (but then she got the giggles, I got the giggles and we snuggled instead)


----------



## DayOne

24th Wedding Anniversary today! Yay us!


----------



## aine

Dayone, congratulations and happy anniversary, your story is definitely a postive one, keep up the good fight.


----------



## DayOne

Anniversary went well. Flowers delivered her office as ordered. out to dinner, then home for playtime... ;-) 

Her gift to me? A new outfit. For her. The kind you don't post pictures of....


----------



## Chaparral

Sorry to hear about your son's anger situation. Has he gone to counseling?

I was in a situation that led me to Google anger and adrenalin. Evidently, anger can be an addiction. It explains a lot of the pointless drama in life I now believe.


----------



## DayOne

Not been active (here) much recently. In part because there's not much to talk about, vis a vis 'drama' in Casa De Juan. We just get along. Work together, get stuff done. 

Had a small flare up last night. Well, she did. She'd been telling me how 'good' she's been with sticking to her diet... for the most part.

I praised her for having willpower and working hard on losing weight. But also reminded her to stay strong when tempted by junk food around the office. 

She didn't like that, having her feet held to the fire. And got defensive, even a little 'bratty'. That I shouldn't make her feel bad for pointing out she could do better in avoiding junk food. For falling off the wagon. 

I waited until she finished venting (it didn't get attacking, on me. Or vindictive, so no need to pull her up short), then explained (calmly) that that's the way it should be. I'll praise her when she's good, and help her when she's not. That I would hope she will do the same for me. As long as 'negative' comments can voiced, and heard, in the right mindset, and not done maliciously, it's a learning tool. A way of growing each other. 

She accepted that She didn't come back with "well, you do this, this and this" (old coping mechanism, for both of us) . But instead listened to what I was saying as I listened to her. Saw my point of view, that I was trying to keep her away from temptation, and I saw hers, that she felt like she wasn't doing 'good enough'. Being 'bad'.

And we moved on.


She has brought up, on a couple of occasions, that I have said things that she found hurtful. So I went through it with her and realised that I had spoken before thinking. Unintentional, but I could see how it was hurtful, and told her so. So apologised and added it to my things to work on. 

And the 'heat' dissipated. She moved on. I moved on. 

There are times when she 'feels' criticised, put down, ignored, and times when I fail and make her feel that way. What I'm learning and she is too is that it's not always the same thing. I used to feel 'bad' if she felt bad. Now realising it that it's not (always) my fault. And to work on us knowing the difference. 

I think, and i think M'Lady would agree, that we have thrown away most of our old coping mechanisms. We just deal with any friction in a different way now. 

I'm not the ogre I was last year. She see's that and was drawn back to the guy she's got now. No longer afraid, no longer reacting out of fear. Able to speak for herself, and be heard. 

BUT, there will be, maybe always, the cold hand of the past, pulling triggers, clouding judgements, how things are heard. So when that happens, we will work on moving through it. Making sure its being presented, and heard, as the two 'new' people we are now.


----------



## DayOne

'Blog' post rambling (but a lot to cover):

Another situation a couple weeks ago that could have gone badly... but didn't. 

Let me back up slightly. Haven't been around here much as it's been a quiet few weeks at Casa De Juan. She's been struggling, a lot, with the open mining of her soul that IC has brought about. A lot of memories (bad) from her childhood all the way up to, well, pre D-Day has left her very raw emotionally. Very vulnerable, very easy to trigger. 

So, it's been, for me, all about keeping her moving forward, working through this, but without overtly 'pushing' her through it. It's been a tightrope walk, learning how to lead her without making her feel controlled. Accepting her need to process, although it meant a lot of time watching her being shut down. (and no 'playtime')

But even then, it's possible to trigger her without realising it. 

That evening we were getting ready to go out. I moved a pile of laundry she'd left on the floor, she instantly rushed over saying "I'll move it, I'll move it. I don't want to be in your way". Really scared, and I didn't know why. 

So I helped her tell me what was going on. And it was because she was seeing the 'old me', in her head. The one that would have been pi££ed off for leaving a mess. Told her she wasn't 'good enough'. That she was a 'bad girl'. A failure. 

Because that's what she's been reliving. Not just the 'old guy', but decades of being told she was 'bad'. By people throughout her life. 

It crushed me. That she was still afraid of me. Still untrusting. Until I realised it wasn't 'me' she was afraid of, it was her own fear. Her memories, so close to the surface right now. 

She'd done something similar when I'd gotten home from work earlier. Listing all the things she'd done today, justifying herself. Desperately seeking approval. "See, i've been good!". She does that a lot, letting me know she's been 'good'. Seeking approval.

And she was scared, defensive, not wanting to be hurt, 'bad'. She stood there, clutching the laundry to her chest as a shield, cowered in the corner of the landing, I realised just who I was seeing. What she's been reliving. It broke my heart. 

So I sat down, on the top stair, deliberately not 'blocking' her way, and talked her through it. Listened to her pain, her fear, what I've been waiting to hear for weeks. And when she was done, loosened her grip on her laundry shield, I thanked her and went back to the bedroom while she brought herself back from her place of fear. 

Eventually she came to the bedroom, lay down on the bed and cuddled into me. After which she got up and we dressed and went on to the blues gig after all.

And later came home, where we had the most intense 'playtime' we've had in a month. 

Now, it could have gone totally the other way (and in the past it would have). She started out the evening saying she didn't trust me, didn't feel safe with me, was still scared of me. If i'd hung onto that, reacted to it (as I would have done before), the evening would have gone downhill fast. But, because I thought through it, chose to 'be the [email protected] rock', I was able to see what what really going on. It wasn't me she was scared of. It was 40+ years of pain, rejection. Projected at me, briefly, to see if She could be safe, with me. And saw that she could. 

She had her IC a couple days later, and after we did the gym, she told me about it.

She had talked about Saturday, and the "laundry shield" meltdown. Interestingly she didn't remember the actual events, what had triggered her, just an overwhelming feeling of fear. Fight or flight mode. Which had put her back into being an abused scared child, turbocharged by the current memories she's facing, of when she was an abused scared little girl.

So what she remembered was the feelings, not what happened. So I walked her through it, and she could understand why she was triggered.

The other thing she remembered, was that I was there for her. Talked her through her episode. Supported her. 

And that I have been, supporting her. Leading her. Something she hadn't realised fully. 

Even the IC seems to have my back. Pointing out that I've been helping her work through this. Pulling her forward. 

So put that down as a win.

The good news is that I "don't have to try so hard". She feels safe, with me. And that's more important than usual. In therapy she's been dealing with NOT feeling safe, protected, taken care of, since she was about 8 years old. Now that she's allowing herself to be exposed, she's recognising that the new me is that safe place, and is responding to it. She's said she likes when I take care of her, make her breakfast before I leave, that she's eaten during the day (she forgets when she's at work), drag her to the gym. She likes to be led, by me. Because she feels safe, with me. The guy she ran from a year ago.


Apologies for the long post, but a good place to catch up on what's happening with us. Making like a swan. All calm and serene on the surface, but paddling like a MFer underneath!


----------



## Mr.Fisty

DayOne said:


> Not been active (here) much recently. In part because there's not much to talk about, vis a vis 'drama' in Casa De Juan. We just get along. Work together, get stuff done.
> 
> Had a small flare up last night. Well, she did. She'd been telling me how 'good' she's been with sticking to her diet... for the most part.
> 
> I praised her for having willpower and working hard on losing weight. But also reminded her to stay strong when tempted by junk food around the office.
> 
> She didn't like that, having her feet held to the fire. And got defensive, even a little 'bratty'. That I shouldn't make her feel bad for pointing out she could do better in avoiding junk food. For falling off the wagon.
> 
> I waited until she finished venting (it didn't get attacking, on me. Or vindictive, so no need to pull her up short), then explained (calmly) that that's the way it should be. I'll praise her when she's good, and help her when she's not. That I would hope she will do the same for me. As long as 'negative' comments can voiced, and heard, in the right mindset, and not done maliciously, it's a learning tool. A way of growing each other.
> 
> She accepted that She didn't come back with "well, you do this, this and this" (old coping mechanism, for both of us) . But instead listened to what I was saying as I listened to her. Saw my point of view, that I was trying to keep her away from temptation, and I saw hers, that she felt like she wasn't doing 'good enough'. Being 'bad'.
> 
> And we moved on.
> 
> 
> She has brought up, on a couple of occasions, that I have said things that she found hurtful. So I went through it with her and realised that I had spoken before thinking. Unintentional, but I could see how it was hurtful, and told her so. So apologised and added it to my things to work on.
> 
> And the 'heat' dissipated. She moved on. I moved on.
> 
> There are times when she 'feels' criticised, put down, ignored, and times when I fail and make her feel that way. What I'm learning and she is too is that it's not always the same thing. I used to feel 'bad' if she felt bad. Now realising it that it's not (always) my fault. And to work on us knowing the difference.
> 
> I think, and i think M'Lady would agree, that we have thrown away most of our old coping mechanisms. We just deal with any friction in a different way now.
> 
> I'm not the ogre I was last year. She see's that and was drawn back to the guy she's got now. No longer afraid, no longer reacting out of fear. Able to speak for herself, and be heard.
> 
> BUT, there will be, maybe always, the cold hand of the past, pulling triggers, clouding judgements, how things are heard. So when that happens, we will work on moving through it. Making sure its being presented, and heard, as the two 'new' people we are now.



Well, parts of our past behavior never fully disappear, we just place new ways of responding upon them. Working hard on both of your new methods will limit those old behavior, but they will flare up from time to time.

So, do not always beat yourselves up for slip up, they are bound to occur. Acknowledging them, breaking it down helps, and each communicating how both experience the situation and working through it will help with accepting and moving on.


----------



## anchorwatch

DayOne said:


> Apologies for the long post, but a good place to catch up on what's happening with us. Making like a swan. All calm and serene on the surface, but paddling like a MFer underneath!


Isn't worth it?

Merry Christmas, D1. 


Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## DayOne

Thanks both. I'm getting better at recognising that her outbursts aren't personal. So I don't react to them. Just remain firm, let her release the poison that's been affecting her since childhood and hold her when she's done. 

She came to me last night and told me that she is beginning to believe that I love her. Allowing herself to let it in, lowering her shields. So slowly slowly we are getting to where we should be. As I've said before I'm playing the long game. 

Bad news of the week is that she's had it confirmed that her knees are fked. Xrays show that there is NO cartilage remaining in one knee and almost none in the other. So we get to join the NHS 'bionic knee' waiting list.


----------



## Blossom Leigh

You just described my walk to a T and also my H's choice to respond to me to a T. Glad she has you. Well done.


----------



## DayOne

Updates:

(historical note: Youngest son and I had a massive falling out just before D-Day. haven't spoken for over a year)

Met with youngest last week, had a sit down at a restaurant and talked. Just he and I. Went well, and we're going to work things out. 

Then youngest, and oldest (and oldest's girlfriend) came over Sunday night for dinner. Which went very well. M'Lady was on cloud nine, positively glowing, to have all of us round the table.

And youngest and I went to the gym together last night. Just to hang out and lift some weights. It felt good, natural, right. 

Youngest and his Fiancee have finally split, after many walkaways by her. He can't afford the apt by himself, so there's a possibility he may have to move home. M'Lady and i have suggested oldest consider moving in with youngest (along with oldest's girlfriend). He currently lives with his girlfriends family, and they've looking to get their own place. The two of them hung out Sunday night at the apt to watch the Superbowl (oldest's first visit to the apt). No feedback on our suggestion yet, but they enjoyed their evening together (they also have their own bridges to rebuild). 

M'Lady and I continue to improve. Her trust, and faith in me continue to grow. We don't trigger, from old memories, very much at all. On the decreasingly few times we have a problem, we work it out. I realised that the timing of youngest reaching out and not being able to afford his apt was no coincidence and asked her about it. Something like that would have caused an argument before (recriminations, being accused of being a ahole), but because we handle things differently, it was a non event. 

In her IC she's realised that trust wasn't something she knew HOW to do. Growing up, no-one trusted each other, because it was often betrayed. So it was safer not to trust. She learning what trust is, and how to know when it's there. Which she feels it is, now, finally, with us. 

In my IC, i've been struggling with feeling that I'm losing what I'd gained last year, in confidence, self assuredness, drive. My IC keeps reminding me that I'm WAY too hard on myself and to just enjoy what I have, what I've achieved in the year. And to work on my own trust issues. Also, to allow others in. To accept help, be vulnerable. 

I have to get back to re-reading the books, writing again, and posting here. It helped me before. So expect more posts like this.

So, still doin' what I do. Quietly, surely, moving forward.


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## Blossom Leigh

Brilliant...


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## DayOne

Maybe having everything going so well freaks me out, I end up wondering when it's going to fall apart, go wrong. Coz, you know it's like inevitable, right?...

Sigh.

And things are going well, between M'Lady and me. Take last night, we'd arranged to go to the gym together. But she ended up having to work late (past 10pm). She didn't have to work late, but felt she had to help when a last minute crisis occurred. 

She'd called a couple of times earlier to say "i'm leaving soon", but didn't show. So I went to the gym, stag.

By the time she rolled in, with her colleague who stays with us occasionally, I was little frosty, but instead of fighting about it, we calmly discussed our feelings about it. Saw each others sides, and dissolved any 'anger'. 

To the point where if her friend wasn't staying over we would have had playtime instead of the stony silence we used to 'enjoy' (sarcasm). 

And THAT'S what I have to remember, realise. How far we've both come, individually and together. That where we are now is nothing like it used to be. I haven't backslid, at all. 

So go forward, instead of worrying about going back.


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## DayOne

An update is long overdue.

We're struggling a bit right now. Or, more accurately perhaps, she's struggling right now. Still dealing with stuff, feelings, from her past and how it's affecting her. She says she is about to go even deeper, to open herself even more.

IMO, I've been dealing with day to day pretty [email protected] well. Including having youngest son living with us again. He and I have been getting along without any friction. 

But, this means she is pushing 'the rock', hard. 'Testing', to see if I'm strong enough. Looking for weakness, cracks, any hint of 'OG'. This come's out as: 
"you don't 'share' as much as I do/you don't talk about your feelings as much as I do", 
"You're not doing as much in IC as I am/You're not getting 'results' in IC the way I am". 
"I'm going to be going deeper, but I'm afraid you're just going to throw it back in my face, use it against me". 

And constant 'triggers'. Yesterday she had a meltdown because I suggested she work on clearing some of the piles of 'stuff' on her side of the bedroom. Which went on into how I'd 'overwhelmed' her, by putting her crafting stuff into her crafting room when she moved back in. Apparently 'my plan' was to put everything of her's into one room, to "put her in the corner" if you prefer. Which of course is BS. 

And then this morning I took her to work, with the plan to pick her up afterwards. So as I drop her off she says "look forward to seeing you tonight". 

"Sounds good, I'll pick you up".

"THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT! I meant I look forward to seeing you tonight!"

(WTF?!?!)

So, it seems, to me, she's got some triggers going on. Probably because she's still got so many open wounds from IC and her own thoughts from that. 

But, it's exhausting. It's wearing her out. As she says, she's in a 'dark place' right now. Often. And it's wearing me out, having to be the rock. It's causing me to react, rather than understand her. 

When she melted down yesterday, I listened for a while, but when she became insulting, accusatory, I told her "that's enough!" in a raised voice, which did not go well. Then I told her, more calmly, that I'm been told I'm the bad guy all my life. So while I will listen to her and her feelings, I will not accept her turning her fears into making me a bad guy. The source of her problems. 

I managed to stay firm, not push back and score points (IMO). And we were fine last night. But another blow up from her today.

It's exhausting. She puts her fears, self doubts, feeling of failure, guilt and projects them onto me. Until feel I like i'm the one that's failing.


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## farsidejunky

Patience, brother.

I know it's not easy, but this too shall pass.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk


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## Blossom Leigh

Its times like these that extra rest, eating well, leaning on others for strength can help you weather this storm. Its darkest before the dawn and it definitely sounds like she is working out something that right now is not congruent inside of her and her mind is working out how to make it congruent.


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## Chaparral

Is she talking about what is going on in counseling?


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## ReturntoZero

DayOne said:


> An update is long overdue.
> 
> We're struggling a bit right now. Or, more accurately perhaps, she's struggling right now. Still dealing with stuff, feelings, from her past and how it's affecting her. She says she is about to go even deeper, to open herself even more.
> 
> IMO, I've been dealing with day to day pretty [email protected] well. Including having youngest son living with us again. He and I have been getting along without any friction.
> 
> But, this means she is pushing 'the rock', hard. 'Testing', to see if I'm strong enough. Looking for weakness, cracks, any hint of 'OG'. This come's out as:
> "you don't 'share' as much as I do/you don't talk about your feelings as much as I do",
> "You're not doing as much in IC as I am/You're not getting 'results' in IC the way I am".
> "I'm going to be going deeper, but I'm afraid you're just going to throw it back in my face, use it against me".
> 
> And constant 'triggers'. Yesterday she had a meltdown because I suggested she work on clearing some of the piles of 'stuff' on her side of the bedroom. Which went on into how I'd 'overwhelmed' her, by putting her crafting stuff into her crafting room when she moved back in. Apparently 'my plan' was to put everything of her's into one room, to "put her in the corner" if you prefer. Which of course is BS.
> 
> And then this morning I took her to work, with the plan to pick her up afterwards. So as I drop her off she says "look forward to seeing you tonight".
> 
> "Sounds good, I'll pick you up".
> 
> "THAT'S NOT WHAT I MEANT! I meant I look forward to seeing you tonight!"
> 
> (WTF?!?!)
> 
> So, it seems, to me, she's got some triggers going on. Probably because she's still got so many open wounds from IC and her own thoughts from that.
> 
> But, it's exhausting. It's wearing her out. As she says, she's in a 'dark place' right now. Often. And it's wearing me out, having to be the rock. It's causing me to react, rather than understand her.
> 
> When she melted down yesterday, I listened for a while, but when she became insulting, accusatory, I told her "that's enough!" in a raised voice, which did not go well. Then I told her, more calmly, that I'm been told I'm the bad guy all my life. So while I will listen to her and her feelings, I will not accept her turning her fears into making me a bad guy. The source of her problems.
> 
> I managed to stay firm, not push back and score points (IMO). And we were fine last night. But another blow up from her today.
> 
> It's exhausting. She puts her fears, self doubts, feeling of failure, guilt and projects them onto me. Until feel I like i'm the one that's failing.


I'm getting all that crap too.

I don't take it from her.

It's not even an option.

"Dear, you have every right to have a bad day. You have no right to take your bad day out on me"


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## Robbity

DayOne said:


> Damn, you're quick! (Stalker?)
> That was yesterday.
> 
> Her reply earlier today:
> 
> 
> I'm holding off on a reply until around 17:30, which will along the lines of:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: still not entirely convinced about the short, cold response method yet.


I've just come across this thread and wanted to say that I take my hat off to you Day One! I'm only at page 5. Well done. There is hope for the rest of us after all.


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## WhyMe66

2xloser said:


> (a) I'm sorry; I know how painful this is
> (b) It is not crystal clear, but seems from reading your post that you don't want this, and she does?
> (c) good for you for reading and looking inward, first & foremost. Regardless of where this marriage goes, this will benefit you enormously. So will The 180. Stay with it; it is hard.
> (d) you didn't ask a question or for any input, but for my 2 cents, I'd say if you do want the marriage to be ultimately saved, you're doing mostly right, but just be sure she *knows* what you want; leave nothing assumed so that you do not look back at this time and doubt yourself or ask "what if?". Be sure she knows what you want her to know, because you told her directly -- no assumptions.
> 
> Remember to eat. Breathe (seriously; i found myself holding my breath all the time, inexplicabky). Be active when you can; isolation and inactivity are a bad combo for the brain. I feel for you, man. but you seem to have your head on straight; you will get through this.


Holding your breath is a survival mechanism from the reptilian brain. Why Two Time Loser? Do you see yourself that way? If you are in here and learning to cope and survive then I don't see a loser. You aren't being kept down, not a loser. Just my 12 1/2 cents worth... (inflation and taxes, sorry)


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## DayOne

Chaparral said:


> Is she talking about what is going on in counselling?


Yes, we both do.


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## DayOne

ReturntoZero said:


> I'm getting all that crap too.
> 
> I don't take it from her.
> 
> It's not even an option.
> 
> "Dear, you have every right to have a bad day. You have no right to take your bad day out on me"


Which is what I said to her last night. That while I appreciate she's going through a lot right now, venting her pain, anxiety, fears onto me is not going help us get her through it. I'll support her, guide her, be there for her. But not be the misplaced target of her emotions.


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## ReturntoZero

DayOne said:


> Which is what I said to her last night. That while I appreciate she's going through a lot right now, venting her pain, anxiety, fears onto me is not going help us get her through it. I'll support her, guide her, be there for her. But not be the misplaced target of her emotions.


Sadly, mine thinks that being allowed to blame me is "communication"

I'm happy to meet her halfway. But, that involves her considering and acting upon MY requests also.


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## Tron

ReturntoZero said:


> Sadly, mine thinks that being allowed to blame me is "communication"


That's why her pet name for you is "AngerBucket".


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## Robbity

MEM11363 said:


> John,
> I'm pretty sure you haven't read this thread from the very first post forward. I just did so.
> 
> And I have read literally thousands of threads over the last 5 years.
> 
> This is a 'true recon' in progress. I have a keen ear for the sound of someone being played. Absolutely not the case here. D1's wife is clearly focused on making this work, is making a good faith effort to work on her issues AND feels love and desire for D1.
> 
> Playing hardball with someone in that context is totally counterproductive.
> 
> That said - D1 is playing a most intense game of hardball - WITH HIMSELF. And he's winning.
> 
> If you read this thread from the first post, you'll be reading an inspirational love story.


I'm on day 3 of reading it from the start and have to agree that this is truly an inspirational love story. I'm reading and learning.....:smthumbup:


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## DayOne

Today is the one year anniversary of M'Lady moving back in. We're still doing great. Really great. We talk, we laugh, we... play. We're definitely not the couple who broke up two years ago. Still get the occasional triggers, but fewer and further between, and we still have yet to find a disagreement we can't work out.

We don't get to fool around as often as we'd like, but only because we have youngest around the house! 

But when we do, get to 'play', it's kinda wild. Learnt a lot about what we are and are not into. We're definitely not vanilla anymore! 

Work, for me is going ok. The company was recently bought out, and the axe has been swinging. So far I've been safe, and I'm hoping that the rumoured changes to my dept will bring only good things. Fingers crossed. 

M'Lady has finally been put in the queue for a knee replacement. Just one for now, with the other one to be done later. Probably her right knee as it has reached a point where the upper knee joint is actually grinding a hole into the lower joint. Ouch-y!

Off to Amsterdam in the morning (Friday) for a 4 day weekend. Then California in October for 10 days. Primarily, unfortunately, to see her step mom for probably the last time. She's got advanced dementia, and her body is failing now too. 

But, the trip will give her a chance to heal the past with her sisters. Seeing her older sister in Venice really went well, and she wants to work on that more, with her younger sister. So older sister is flying in from NC, and the three of them will hang out and talk.


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## farsidejunky

Nice update, D1. Safe travels.


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## DayOne

(blows dust off TAM keyboard...)

Hey, just checking in. All still going great for us. Off to California for 10 days on Friday (wave as we fly past, ok!), and having our silver anniversary party just before Xmas. M'Lady is having a blast, getting to do all the stuff she didn't get to do the first time. Making and sending invites, planning decorations. To the point where we now refer to it as the "NWW" (non wedding wedding...)

My sister is a wedding planner, and knows someone with a wedding dress shop. So Saturday M'lady, my sister, my Mum and one of M'Lady's friends spent the day playing "say yes to the dress". Tears all round.

She's not actually wearing a wedding dress, but decided to get a non-wedding dress made for the day. Which my Mum promptly paid for. More tears.

Fortunately, I only got to hear about it all later. As I'd chosen to go spend the day out in the woods, chainsawing and splitting firewood! 

Work is going great. Still quiet as we wait for things to shake out, but patience may be about to pay off as my role, and my teams, may be about to expand a lot. The company that bought ours out has fingers in several other pies. Including Police and Ministry of Defence. We've sent in our security clearance paperwork, once that clears we will be working on other clients and sites, not just our own. 

Still have a full house, with both kids back home. Youngest is really enjoying being a police officer, and slowly seems to be realising that "angry" is not his only available emotion. He thinks and rationalises instead of reacts, a lot more. Still has his moments, but no longer with us. I think that's because he see's that we have a new 'toolbox' for dealing with issues and he tries to follow our lead. One time I don't mind the kids borrowing my tools! 

Oldest has been in daily contact with his girl, and they seem to be working things out. From what I gather she was tired of "same old same old". Which is probably fair. Eight years is a long time, especially for a couple kids. The 'romance' wasn't there. But, again, they seem to be following our way of rebooting after D-Day. To go back to basics, start dating again. She's back from California today, so we'll see how that goes. 

Not a lot of playtime recently, with the kids in and out of the house at random times. You never quite know when is 'safe'. Also, M'lady has sprained her back, so along with her knee's, is in some pain. Dr's appt today, so we'll know whats she's actually done. Also, her head is all over the place, between counselling, the trip to California and her fears of meeting her sisters, and the NWW planning, playtime has not had room in her thinking. But, she does take the time to let me know I'm still in there somewhere. The other day I was in the shower, and she suddenly stepped in with me. Which is a rare occurrence. Soaped me up and 'gave me a hand', but no happy ending as I could tell she was in pain. So I cleaned her up, towelled her off and gave her a massage instead. 

Still a regular at the the gym, but beginning to wonder if I'm an endomorph, as my gains, even with some advice from the instructor seem to be minimal, no matter what routines and weights I try. In good shape, I think, even had positive feedback from the USAF kids I 4-wheel with ("you're pretty spry, for an old guy"! ), but I don't gain weight, lose weight or change much physically. 

So, yeah. That's about where I'm at, We're at.


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## farsidejunky

Another great update, brother. 

Have fun at your 25th anniversary. Celebrate it. Celebrate each other. Keep in perspective how close it came to not being.

You rock, dude.


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## DayOne

OK, (almost) two months is long enough. I need to unlurk and get posting again. 

So, California was a great trip. Really enjoyed being back there, hanging with M'Lady's family and meeting up with our friends. Was one of those 'gogogo!' vacations where you come home needing a vacation, but totally worth it.

M'Lady and her sisters reconnected and talked about the past, their lives when growing up, and the pain it has left them all feeling. And she finally realised her sisters didn't in fact 'hate' her. In fact, just the opposite. When we told them about our 25th anniversary, they both said "we're coming!", which blew M'Lady's mind. 

So they, and their +1's were added to the list. Which is around 65 people, only two invitee's (my boss and his lady) have said no, due to prior commitments. Which has further cracked M'Lady's perception of being unwanted, unloved, valueless. 

Her younger Sister arrived a couple days ago, staying through new years eve. Never been to England, or met most of my family. Those she had met (my Mum and Sister) was 25 years ago, at our wedding. The older Sister and her Husband (who have been to visit us before) arrive next week, thru the 3rd Jan. They'll be staying at my Mums as our house is full. 

Younger Sisters female partner wasn't going to come, but changed her mind. As i found out later mainly due to me! When we were in California I apparently made her feel safe and welcomed into the family. So it seems 'new guy' is who i am, full time. Mas brownie points!

As far as M'Lady sees me, its 99.5% new guy. Almost no triggers. Though it can be a delicate process as she continues with therapy, her online management course (which requires a lot of introspection apparently) and reopening dialogue with her family leaves her very raw emotionally. From what she has told me, last night being the most recent, I'm her internal calming voice when she needs strength ("what would DayOne do"? ). Which is a much better perception than being one of those inner voices that put her down. Weakened her. 

Work is... still in wait n see mode. Although we are now part of a much larger company, my dept is still only getting glimpses of the fresh fields from behind the gate. Part of which is waiting for our security clearances to process as many of the clients are .gov, .mil, and police. I'm up in London office today for my Met police (London City police) interview. So once that goes through I can work on that client. A good thing as they are scheduled to take floor space in my office at some point.

I still get my dark moments. Struggle internally. But i'm able to step away and see it. Figure out why and correct it. But i'm definitely not who i was. I know it, my girl knows it, even the kids see it.


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## farsidejunky

Nice update, brother.


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## Taxman

Day One:
Your story in many ways reflects what has gone on in my marriage. Ours happened 28 years ago, and was precipitated by my infidelity. I was a closed off angry man. In more ways than one, I pushed my wife away. She threw me out. She had a revenge affair. It looked like we were headed for divorce. I went into therapy and learned about the behaviors that were tearing us apart. In many ways, the affairs were the poison pill that was necessary for the old marriage to die. The new marriage began when we were talking in public places about finances and assets. We just went for coffee. Soon that became every night. Followed by Saturday night dates. Followed by allowing me overnights. (You were in your house, I went to live in my Mom's basement-my W got the home) It took nearly eight months. We reconnected as another couple. We work on communicating and NOT having blowouts. We recommit to the marriage with regularity. We are now empty-nesters, and are having another "honeymoon". We had been warned that when the last kid goes, some people turn away from one another. We, being us, turned to each other. Not just the sex, but even more deeply into each other. Part of it is a daily decompression session that I like to call the "****tail hour". Most times we do not have the ****tail, more a coffee, and a sit in our "cave" or on the deck. We talk about the day, feelings and some externals, and just get into what has happened; it helped when her old job became a nightmare. It was a positive when she landed her new job. 

This site is full of sad sad stories. Yours is positive and uplifting. Thank you for sharing this, like my story, a success is hope for everyone.


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## Lostinthought61

I think over time....we get into a rut if you will, where we both still communicate, however it seems to gravitate to topics that are most genre to the case at hand...jobs, family, kids, money, vacations, issues, etc....and we stop to talk about our dreams, our desires, our passions, our hungers...and that chasm grows over time, and one day you wake up and realize you don't know the person that is lying beside you and they don't know you....you have so much in common and at the same time nothing in common.


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## Itwasjustafantasy

.


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## Archangel2

@DayOne - Hope you are doing well.


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