# Do they know what they are giving up (LD spouses)?



## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

Although I miss sex a lot, the hardest thing for me is not feeling close to my wife. My wife claims that she is trying to be closer to me but I don't feel it and she seems to be okay with not being close. Going without sex is very difficult for me but not being close to my spouse makes it impossible for me to be happy. I know that I am giving up a lot by staying in this marriage (and I won't stay forever without changes) but I wonder if LD spouses realize what they are potentially giving up as well.

I think every LD situation is different. My wife does have some health issues that may affect her libido but I feel there is much more to her withdrawal emotionally from me. I have discussed this before and I believe some of my wife's issues stem from some emotional abuse (not sexual) she experienced from a relative as a teenager. This needs to be addressed in counseling and she has agreed to go again. We have gone before and she dropped out. This next time will be it for me. I will leave if there is no improvement in the marriage. My wife is from Asia and her culture is very resistant to any type of counseling but I have told her that counseling is for the both of us and I will not stay in a marriage without intimacy.

My wife used to like sex. She no longer needs it and she has failed to see how this affects me and makes me feel. We all have a need to be loved and desired and most men cannot feel that without physical intimacy. So many LD spouses just don't understand this. I realize that there are LD men as well but this is much less common, although I know it is equally painful for the spouse. I think that many LD spouses feel that they are not giving up much since they don't need sex. But they are giving up so much more, the chance at an unbelievably close relationship, the best thing there is.

I understand that some people have sex and are not close and others don't have sex and are close but for the most part physical intimacy will make people closer and lack of it will make people less close.

When my wife withdrew from me, I was going through a difficult time. My mother had been diagnosed with cancer a year earlier. She did not live nearby and lived alone. I visited my mother often and cared for her as much as I could. I was very close to her and as her situation deteriorated over the next several years until she passed away, it was very painful for me. 

One thing I did was attend support groups with her when I could. Some would come alone and that was sad but there were many couples there, some of whom were young. One member of the couple had received a devastating diagnosis and the other was there for support. What I saw there was beautiful. I saw an unbelievable love and closeness among those couples. I saw the strength and lessening of fear that the ill spouse seemed to have, most likely as a result of having a loving spouse, someone who made them feel loved and desired.

I will never forget that. Am I reading too much into that? What does sex have to do with that? Well, these couples were obviously very close before the diagnosis, making it easier to go through such a trying time. I sensed that they could face this better and things were less difficult because of the love they felt for each other.

Is all of this obvious? Well, it is to me. Don't let closeness go away in your marriage or relationship. Most men cannot feel the closeness and love of their partner without physical intimacy. If you are not close before a difficult time in your marriage, how will you become close after something bad happens? Most of us want an very close relationship with our partner. I would want a relationship as close as those couples I saw in the support group. If you are an LD spouse, think of how lack of intimacy affects your partner. Also, think about what you are giving up as well.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I totally agree with you. For me, I simply do not trust that my spouse would be there for me in other situations when it "counts" if she can't be there for me sexually. If normal life is too overwhelming and you have a million excuses for why you won't meet this basic need, then why should I believe you are capable of stepping up for me if I hit hard times?

The other point here is that I believe most LD situations are temporary. I think there are very few true LDs.

I think most situational LDs if they really understood what they are missing would regret the lost potential in their relationships. Imagine if you could spend your best years in a truly amazing marriage-- that is what is given up. You will never get those years back.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Married but not happy said:


> When my wife withdrew from me, I was going through a difficult time. My mother had been diagnosed with cancer a year earlier. She did not live nearby and lived alone. I visited my mother often and cared for her as much as I could. I was very close to her and as her situation deteriorated over the next several years until she passed away, it was very painful for me.
> 
> One thing I did was attend support groups with her when I could. Some would come alone and that was sad but there were many couples there, some of whom were young. One member of the couple had received a devastating diagnosis and the other was there for support. What I saw there was beautiful. I saw an unbelievable love and closeness among those couples. I saw the strength and lessening of fear that the ill spouse seemed to have, most likely as a result of having a loving spouse, someone who made them feel loved and desired.
> 
> ...


You are just assuming those close-seeming couples are having sex at the frequency you would like because you do not comprehend that intimacy is still possible without sex. Maybe they had stopped having sex because the ill partner wasn't feeling up to it, and the other partner was still deeply in love. Maybe they are two LDs perfectly happy together in a sexless marriage. Maybe the HD partner is secretly resentful of the LD partner but puts on a good show in public. 

You want closeness, and feel that the only way to obtain it is through sex. Your problem is that you are married to someone who feels differently.


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## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> You are just assuming those close-seeming couples are having sex at the frequency you would like because you do not comprehend that intimacy is still possible without sex. Maybe they had stopped having sex because the ill partner wasn't feeling up to it, and the other partner was still deeply in love. Maybe they are two LDs perfectly happy together in a sexless marriage. Maybe the HD partner is secretly resentful of the LD partner but puts on a good show in public.
> 
> You want closeness, and feel that the only way to obtain it is through sex. Your problem is that you are married to someone who feels differently.


I am not making assumptions about frequency of sex. I am assuming that the couples were meeting each other's needs. Could they have been putting on a show? Possibly, but I think it is more likely that they were realizing the benefits of an extremely close relationship. As far as my situation, I think my wife does not want to be close. That is the problem. If she did, then sex would follow.

I agree with Anon in that LD spouses may regret the tremendous lost potential of the relationship. That is really my point and why I titled the thread what I did. When you refuse to care about your partner's needs, you really lose something very special. Is that something that LD spouses realize?


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## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

I think most situational LDs if they really understood what they are missing would regret the lost potential in their relationships. Imagine if you could spend your best years in a truly amazing marriage-- that is what is given up. You will never get those years back. 


I think this paragraph by Anon111 is very important. I feel exactly the same way. I think most LDs just do not understand what they have given up.


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## LaundryMan (Mar 17, 2015)

Married but not happy said:


> When you refuse to care about your partner's needs, you really lose something very special. Is that something that LD spouses realize?


You may not think you're making assumptions, but your choice of words here is very telling: "when you refuse to care," implying that you believe not having sex much is a conscious rejection of the other partner's wants/needs.

I can't speak for the other LD's here, but I have a big problem with this unspoken assumption. Read some other recent threads in this forum. We LD spouses often DO care greatly for our spouses' needs, and DO want to make a tradeoff to make the relationship healthier. But you have to find that middle ground...both partners do. Just giving in to sex with an HD partner may be "meeting their needs" but it's a one-sided sacrifice in that case, which can only lead to more problems down the road. The key is to find an acceptable balance, not to declare that either partner's needs must be met.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

if it doesn't matter so much to you then why are you so reluctant to give it?


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> if it doesn't matter so much to you then why are you so reluctant to give it?


Because it would take more than "duty sex" or "starfish sex" to satisfy, wouldn't it?


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

techmom said:


> Because it would take more than "duty sex" or "starfish sex" to satisfy, wouldn't it?



This is the difference between low desire and aversion. Many people with an aversion try to claim they're ld because it makes them seem less selfish.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Let's not treat sex like another chore that can be done with a lackluster "let's get this over with" attitude. It is something that a person who is not in the mood finds difficult to do, and when our partner has an attitude of, why can't you just do this, it makes us resentful because this same partner wants us to feel just as horny and desirous as them.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Going back to that old food analogy. The HD person is trying to force feed an already full LD person. It doesn't matter that the HD person is starving. The LD person is stuffed. They do not want to eat more just to make the HD person happy. Unfortunately, because of their monogamous agreement, the HD person is only able to eat at the same time as the LD person. However, unlike lack of food, the LD person knows lack of sex won't kill their HD partner. What they don't understand is that the HD person feels like they may as well be dead, the hunger pangs are so intense and unrelieved.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

techmom said:


> Let's not treat sex like another chore that can be done with a lackluster "let's get this over with" attitude. It is something that a person who is not in the mood finds difficult to do, and when our partner has an attitude of, why can't you just do this, it makes us resentful because this same partner wants us to feel just as horny and desirous as them.


I get what you are saying.

It's all in the delivery though.

Do I want to hear my wife complain about her day? Not really. But I'm supposed to listen to her and not roll my eyes or check my phone while she does it. It is too much to expect me to really be engaged in an interaction like that when it is not how I would personally choose to spend my time if I had infinite options?

The same logic applies to "duty" sex.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

techmom said:


> Let's not treat sex like another chore that can be done with a lackluster "let's get this over with" attitude. It is something that a person who is not in the mood finds difficult to do, and when our partner has an attitude of, why can't you just do this, it makes us resentful because this same partner wants us to feel just as horny and desirous as them.


I get what you are saying.

It's all in the delivery.

Do I want to hear my wife complain about her day? Not really. But I'm supposed to listen to her and not roll my eyes or check my phone while she does it. Is it too much to expect me to really be engaged in an interaction like that when it is not how I would personally choose to spend my time if I had infinite options?

The same logic applies to "duty" sex.


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## techmom (Oct 22, 2012)

Anon1111 said:


> I get what you are saying.
> 
> It's all in the delivery though.
> 
> ...


You would be surprised, but most HDs feel that sex given out of love when it is not desired by the LD is "duty sex".

Not everyone has the same definition, and the frequency of this type of sex versus the hot desirous sex matters too.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

techmom said:


> You would be surprised, but most HDs feel that sex given out of love when it is not desired by the LD is "duty sex".
> 
> Not everyone has the same definition, and the frequency of this type of sex versus the hot desirous sex matters too.


I'm not sure about the most HDs thing. I accept that there are some "my way or the highway" HDs. That is really short sighted behavior if you ask me.

I think if you're doing the sex equivalent of "active listening", not drawing arbitrary lines and telling your spouse how he "should feel" about sex acts, then you don't have to blame yourself.


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## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

LaundryMan said:


> You may not think you're making assumptions, but your choice of words here is very telling: "when you refuse to care," implying that you believe not having sex much is a conscious rejection of the other partner's wants/needs.
> 
> I can't speak for the other LD's here, but I have a big problem with this unspoken assumption. Read some other recent threads in this forum. We LD spouses often DO care greatly for our spouses' needs, and DO want to make a tradeoff to make the relationship healthier. But you have to find that middle ground...both partners do. Just giving in to sex with an HD partner may be "meeting their needs" but it's a one-sided sacrifice in that case, which can only lead to more problems down the road. The key is to find an acceptable balance, not to declare that either partner's needs must be met.


I have to admit that I do not understand. If a marriage is sexless and one partner is unhappy with that, where is the middle ground? I am not talking about a situation where there is some frequency of sex and one partner just wants more. I am talking about a sexless marriage.

If the HD partner needs physical intimacy to be loved and the LD partner does not, where is the middle ground for you? Does physical intimacy make the LD partner feel unloved? The HD partner has a need for physical intimacy. The LD partner has other needs. Why can't they meet each other's needs? If physical intimacy does not make the LD partner feel unloved, what is the problem? If the LD partner cannot get "into it" due to lack of desire, can they not at least get enjoyment out of making their partner happy?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Listen to the LDs who are gracious enough to post sincerely.

Many HD's tend to assume that having sex with your spouse when you are not in the mood is no big deal to the LD. For many LDs it is a big deal. It is invasive. It is a huge imposition on volition and personal integrity to give in to having sex when you don't desire it.

The reason this is such an intractable problem is that often there are no easy solutions. If the problem is something the HD does or doesn't do, so that the HD can change their behavior and then the LD feels more desire, there is a win-win possible. But if the LD has an aversion, or does not find the HD attractive, there may be no win-win possible.

HDs may be tempted to respond "then tell me the truth so I can file for divorce". Yes, in a perfect world the LD would do so. But if you the HD haven't filed for divorce yet despite the lack of sex, do you think the LD wants to get divorced? They are probably as averse to getting divorced as their HD partner.

The LD lives in hope that the HD will accept the lack of sex and be happy and they can share a joyous life together just as the HD lives in hope that the LD will some day some how develop a higher libido for the HD. Both sides know deep down what they are giving up, but they hope they won't have to anyway.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Listen to the LDs who are gracious enough to post sincerely.
> 
> Many HD's tend to assume that having sex with your spouse when you are not in the mood is no big deal to the LD. For many LDs it is a big deal. It is invasive. It is a huge imposition on volition and personal integrity to give in to having sex when you don't desire it.
> 
> ...


I think this is a fair explanation of the problem. There seems to be an underlying dishonesty in these situations once the problem has persisted for a while. While understandable, I don't believe being dishonest about such a fundamental relationship issue is excuseable. 

If your partner asks you point blank whether you can meet his needs and you know that the answer is "no" and don't share that information, then you have a problem.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Mbnh, I've been there and I am certain that there is no acceptable answer for the (vast?) majority of cases. You are responsible for your own happiness and finding what you need. You won't get it in this marriage. Why do you stay, when you can be much happier by leaving and seeking what will make you happy with someone who shares your perspective?


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Why do we endlessly coddle the people who reject us physically? Why do we make a long list of excuses and understandings? They don't want us. They're the problem. All the psychobabble in the world isn't going to change that. In another other venue that would be called co-dependence. But somehow we're supposed to put our lives on hold to accommodate someone else's lifelong dysfunction. And maybe, just maybe they'll learn to reject us a little less. That's kind of like hoping that if you're good mommy will drink and beat you a little bit less.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Runs like Dog said:


> Why do we endlessly coddle the people who reject us physically? Why do we make a long list of excuses and understandings? *They don't want us. They're the problem.* All the psychobabble in the world isn't going to change that. In another other venue that would be called co-dependence. But somehow we're supposed to put our lives on hold to accommodate someone else's lifelong dysfunction. And maybe, just maybe they'll learn to reject us a little less. That's kind of like hoping that if you're good mommy will drink and beat you a little bit less.


Woah there. You don't actually sound very wantable! Are you sure you're not the problem? Putting out those kind of rejection vibes is not going to make anybody want to get close to you.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

My wife knew very well what she was giving up when I said I was packing my bags... she still said she understood me and that was it...


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Woah there. You don't actually sound very wantable! Are you sure you're not the problem? Putting out those kind of rejection vibes is not going to make anybody want to get close to you.


After decades of "NO" I tend to take people at their word. You drop a glass in the kitchen one time and it's an accident. Twice, you're hands are wet and slippery. Three times, maybe you need to sit down. 8,415 times you clearly like to smash glasses. The fact that you like smashing glasses has no bearing on my desire to get you to stop doing that or not do it as much. You've obviously made a choice. 

To me sexual withdrawal is like any other personality 'quirk', like being a horder or being a passive aggressive control freak. They do it because it soothes them to do it. They do it because harming other people makes them feel fulfilled. They do it for power and control. This is simply the way that people who withhold love withhold it in a marriage or long term purportedly sexual relationship. If they were parents they would withhold a different kind of love from their children. And so on. It's the same mental gymnastics manifested in the framework of what that relationship IS. When it's two women in a non sexual relationship we call it 'Frenemies'. It's picking the fight you CAN pick with someone. 

Because if truth be told not everyone has some physical or hormonal problem. Not everyone was raped by their dad or burned with cigarettes by their drunk mom. Not everyone has some horrendous sexual past they're living in terror from. Not everyone has some emotional block to connecting sexually with someone, anyone else. Usually they're all quite normal and average and they just don't want to have sex with YOU because they like what that does to YOU more than it's unpleasant to them to not have sex at all. And sometimes they're just repelled by you but never admit it.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Married but not happy said:


> I If physical intimacy does not make the LD partner feel unloved, what is the problem? If the LD partner cannot get "into it" due to lack of desire, can they not at least get enjoyment out of making their partner happy?


That's the problem - having sex when you do not feel like it, creates resentment, and yes, feeling of not being loved for who you are just, just for your body.

and I'm saying htis as not LD (currently at least.


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## R4ce (Mar 29, 2015)

WandaJ said:


> That's the problem - having sex when you do not feel like it, creates resentment, and yes, feeling of not being loved for who you are just, just for your body.
> 
> and I'm saying htis as not LD.


But it shouldn't, you should want to do things that make your partner feel good. Unless of course the ld person is selfish, which I'm starting to think many are.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
LD people cannot understand how important sex is to HD people.

HD people cannot understand how awful sex without desire is to a LD person.

I am convinced now that in many cases there is no solution. 

Divorce remains an option, but even though sex is important to HDs, it is not the ONLY thing. Often they are deeply in love with their partners and do not want to abandon them.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I do not believe they 'don't understand'. That's like saying "I understand how the human body 'needs' food water and air but I don't". Intellectually and emotionally it doesn't wash. It's a choice. Just like any other aspect of sexuality it's hardwired. Even people who are so called asexual understand what sex is, to other people. People who are gay understand what straight sex IS. It's just self serving to agree with the chronic non sexual person that what they exhibit is normal and understandable and 'changeable'. It's changeable once we all admit it's a tactic.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> I totally agree with you. For me, I simply do not trust that my spouse would be there for me in other situations when it "counts" if she can't be there for me sexually. If normal life is too overwhelming and you have a million excuses for why you won't meet this basic need, then why should I believe you are capable of stepping up for me if I hit hard times?



And to think when I wrote this last year the TAM intelligencia went all ape on me.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

techmom said:


> Because it would take more than "duty sex" or "starfish sex" to satisfy, wouldn't it?


I have a suggestion: try that instead of nothing, and see if it improves the situation.

Or you could follow the LD motto: "Sex isn't important!!!"


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Anon1111 said:


> if it doesn't matter so much to you then why are you so reluctant to give it?



Because sex tends to lead to more sex and pretty soon the fear is they're having sex daily and OMG we can't have that 

So they're willing to sacrifice the entire marriage just to stay sexless.

Impressive thinking process if you come to think about it.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

techmom said:


> You would be surprised, but most HDs feel that sex given out of love when it is not desired by the LD is "duty sex".
> 
> Not everyone has the same definition, and the frequency of this type of sex versus the hot desirous sex matters too.


Yes, that's duty sex. Is it what I would like in my wildest dreams? No.

But it is still, for me at least, INFINITELY better than having no sex, even if the non-existent sex would be fabulous.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> Listen to the LDs who are gracious enough to post sincerely.
> 
> Many HD's tend to assume that having sex with your spouse when you are not in the mood is no big deal to the LD. For many LDs it is a big deal. It is invasive. It is a huge imposition on volition and personal integrity to give in to having sex when you don't desire it.
> 
> ...


So are you saying that the LD *knows* how much it bothers the HD partner, but is hiding this knowledge in order to avoid the pain of divorce? I hope this isn't generally true, as that would make it even worse for the HD partner.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> My wife knew very well what she was giving up when I said I was packing my bags... she still said she understood me and that was it...


Yep, and a lot of times, that is what will happen. In some cases, the HD spouse thinks they are being a "hero" for staying with the LD even though woe is them, they are completely unfulfilled. They struggle and struggle for years, blaming the LD spouse for their unhappiness. They convince themselves that they are "doing the right thing" by staying, not cheating, and still loving their spouse even though they are unhappy. 

Until finally one day they've had enough and actually leave....and the LD spouse says "ok, see ya when you come to pick up the kids on your weekends, bye".

There are some HD's who just don't realize that their spouse isn't into them that way and they never will be *AND* they won't care if you do leave.

There are some HD's who really just should leave.

There are some HD's who, if they really did leave, would cause a spark to ignite in their LD spouse who would then and only then, decide to examine their sexuality and see if they can make it better...and some would be successful in this (and for some LD's it wouldn't even take the HD leaving, it may be they had an epiphany like GettingIt, or they went to a sex therapist who gave them a clue like Young At Heart's wife).

So there can be some success cases, too.

But for every HD who is truly struggling for years or decades, slowly getting your soul burned off by the resentment building year after year....many of you really are just doing this to yourselves at a certain point.


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## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Mbnh, I've been there and I am certain that there is no acceptable answer for the (vast?) majority of cases. You are responsible for your own happiness and finding what you need. You won't get it in this marriage. Why do you stay, when you can be much happier by leaving and seeking what will make you happy with someone who shares your perspective?


I originally stayed because my mother was dealing with a life threatening illness and lived alone and she needed my help. I did not feel that I could emotionally deal with that and a divorce at the same time. Since that time, there have been other issues, including financial. 

I realize that in the end these are just excuses. I cannot be happy without intimacy and if I stay in a marriage without it, I am to blame. Another reason for staying is that I feel that there are large emotional issues contributing to the lack of intimacy that I feel have at least a chance of being resolved through counseling. My wife has agreed to go together so that is a good first step.

What do I hope to gain through counseling? My wife seems to think that lack of intimacy is something that just happens after you have been married for a while and that it is normal. I disagree and I hope the counselor will be able to help her see that it is not normal or healthy for most people unless both people in the marriage desire that.


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## HDsocal (Nov 19, 2010)

techmom said:


> You would be surprised, but most HDs feel that sex given out of love when it is not desired by the LD is "duty sex".
> 
> Not everyone has the same definition, and the frequency of this type of sex versus the hot desirous sex matters too.


yup it is, this hd guy wants to be wanted, to feel emotion, passion, not just to get off...

sometimes it is ok, but when your sex life becomes duty sex, it isnt really a marriage.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> There are some HD's who just don't realize that their spouse isn't into them that way and they never will be *AND* they won't care if you do leave.


My spouse was very much "into me" for years... I would say about 10... then something changed. I can only guess I disappointed her in some aspect of our life together, but she never told me... maybe because we already had two children together and she didn't want to deprive them of a father figure... so, she put up with me... 

At the end, when I had had enough, she said she understood... she wasn't pleased or happy. She was sad she couldn't give me what I wanted...


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

R4ce said:


> But it shouldn't, you should want to do things that make your partner feel good. Unless of course the ld person is selfish, which I'm starting to think many are.


it does not work like this. and I belive LD can see HD partner as selfish worrying only about fulfilling their own sexual needs, with no regard how they make their LD spouse feel.

There is no need to call people names. These are tragic situations.


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## mary35 (Jul 18, 2010)

Married but not happy said:


> I have to admit that I do not understand. If a marriage is sexless and one partner is unhappy with that, where is the middle ground? I am not talking about a situation where there is some frequency of sex and one partner just wants more. I am talking about a sexless marriage.
> 
> If the HD partner needs physical intimacy to be loved and the LD partner does not, where is the middle ground for you? Does physical intimacy make the LD partner feel unloved? The HD partner has a need for physical intimacy. The LD partner has other needs. Why can't they meet each other's needs? If physical intimacy does not make the LD partner feel unloved, what is the problem? If the LD partner cannot get "into it" due to lack of desire, can they not at least get enjoyment out of making their partner happy?


Do HD's get enjoyment out of making their partner happy by NOT having sex??

What if physical intimacy does make the LD partner feel unloved? 

I don't think most LD's issue with sex is as simple as they just can't get into it due to lack of desire. I believe that for most - it is way more complicated - and that deep seated resentment is typically a component of their lack of response to their partner - especially if the LD/HD clash has been going on for awhile. In many cases, I don't think HD's meet the LD's needs either. After awhile -the LD's are no longer interested in making their partner "happy" anymore because they feel their partner is not interested in making them "happy".

To answer the question of this thread - as a once LD spouse - No I did not understand what I was giving up. I thought we had a good marriage - a typical marriage. Ironically - my husband also thought we had an OK marriage and also a typical marriage. That was part of the reason he eventually resigned himself to our marriage being what it was. He didn't think it would be much different with someone else.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> But for every HD who is truly struggling for years or decades, slowly getting your soul burned off by the resentment building year after year....*many of you really are just doing this to yourselves at a certain point.*


:iagree:

This is a very good point, FW. I stayed in a near-sexless marriage for 20 years, thinking I was doing the "right thing."

In the end, I finally realized that *I* was the only one keeping myself there, in total misery. *I* was the only one who could change my circumstance.

It's very easy to play the "victim" role when you're trapped in an unfulfilling marriage. But you always have a choice. Always.

Too bad it took me 20 years to figure it out... But better late than never!


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I am definitely doing this to myself. Eyes wide open. No one to blame but me.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> I am definitely doing this to myself. Eyes wide open. No one to blame but me.


Don't beat yourself up.

I did this ridiculous dance for TWENTY years.

My best advice... *come OUT of the fog!!!* Stop being a slave to a "withholder"...

Make necessary changes to improve your life. I am SO much happier, getting away from my "captor"... 

You can do it too.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I'm lucky... I've only done it to myself for 13 years...


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

HAAC: Been doing this "ridiculous" dance for over 22 years. Did MC and sex therapy from years 5 to 13. I have been resigned to nothing for a decade. I don't dance any longer. It is what it is. Thankfully, as a guy getting up there in years (we did not marry young), I can't perform anymore so it is less of an issue.

High earner married to SAHM. Would owe her lifetime alimony. I am not leaving. What would be the point? I can't perform so would be pretty stupid to leave over sex now. And anyway, I am so beat down and broken, the only woman who deserves to be hitched to me is the one who broke me. She broke it, she bought it. Hope she is happy.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> High earner married to SAHM. Would owe her lifetime alimony. I am not leaving. What would be the point? I can't perform so would be pretty stupid to leave over sex now. And anyway, I am so beat down and broken, the only woman who deserves to be hitched to me is the one who broke me. She broke it, she bought it. Hope she is happy.


Sooooo interesting HOTI.... Our situations are completely opposite...

I WAS the SAHM mom married to the "high earner" -- a doctor "specialist". 

I met my LTR significant other (I will NEVER get married again). He taught me what love REALLY is.

Don't short-change yourself.

I walked away from the houses, the money, the prestige, the "lifestyle".

I am happier than I've ever been... Yes, Ex-hubs pays me A LOT of spousal support. But he is FAR happier too, without me in his life.

What is YOUR price to pay for a shot at happiness???


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> HAAC: Been doing this "ridiculous" dance for over 22 years. Did MC and sex therapy from years 5 to 13. I have been resigned to nothing for a decade. I don't dance any longer. It is what it is. Thankfully, as a guy getting up there in years (we did not marry young), I can't perform anymore so it is less of an issue.
> 
> High earner married to SAHM. Would owe her lifetime alimony. I am not leaving. What would be the point? I can't perform so would be pretty stupid to leave over sex now. And anyway, I am so beat down and broken, the only woman who deserves to be hitched to me is the one who broke me. She broke it, she bought it. Hope she is happy.


yes, but it's not just sex... it's the intimacy, the connection, the feeling of being desired and wanted... sex is a plus, on top of it...


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> yes, but it's not just sex... it's the intimacy, the connection, the feeling of being desired and wanted... sex is a plus, on top of it...


THANK YOU!!

*Intimacy is the GOAL of marriage...*

There really IS more to life than viewing your "financial interests" as the bench mark.

Money is just.... well... money!

You simply CANNOT put a price tag on peace and happiness.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

> *My spouse was very much "into me" for years... I would say about 10... then something changed.* I can only guess I disappointed her in some aspect of our life together, but she never told me... maybe because we already had two children together and she didn't want to deprive them of a father figure... so, she put up with me...


Does that sound like a classic case of LD/HD incompatibility? To me it does not. Some deeper underlying cause is at the root of the wife in this example BECOMING LD. Whether it was due to hormones or built up resentment, who knows now. All we know is that some deeper cause spilled over into sex/intimacy - or it was a simple case of thyroid, estrogen, testosterone or a combination of these chemicals.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Does that sound like a classic case of LD/HD incompatibility? To me it does not. Some deeper underlying cause is at the root of the wife in this example BECOMING LD. Whether it was due to hormones or built up resentment, who knows now. All we know is that some deeper cause spilled over into sex/intimacy - or it was a simple case of thyroid, estrogen, testosterone or a combination of these chemicals.


No, it wasn't... you are right. There is some other reason, but I will never know. I can only guess... maybe she expected more for me and I disappointed her. I never changed. Still the same I was when we met. Maybe she expected some evolution. People change. People want more from life.


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## Plan 9 from OS (Jul 13, 2012)

In Absentia said:


> No, it wasn't... you are right. There is some other reason, but I will never know. I can only guess... maybe she expected more for me and I disappointed her. *I never changed. Still the same I was when we met. *Maybe she expected some evolution. People change. People want more from life.


Just a guess, but that would be my guess if you can't pinpoint anything specific. I strongly believe that to have a great marriage, both of you have to grow together. 

The person you fell in love with years ago becomes the person you feel indifference towards today.


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## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

In Absentia said:


> My spouse was very much "into me" for years... I would say about 10... then something changed. I can only guess I disappointed her in some aspect of our life together, but she never told me... maybe because we already had two children together and she didn't want to deprive them of a father figure... so, she put up with me...
> 
> At the end, when I had had enough, she said she understood... she wasn't pleased or happy. She was sad she couldn't give me what I wanted...


This is sadly familiar to me, at least the first paragraph. After many beautiful years together, one day my wife just withdrew from me. It is frightening and extremely sad to look into your spouse's eyes and see nothing.

My wife is closer to me now, although there is no intimacy. I just about have had enough and she has agreed to go to counseling together. I have a right to know why and so do you. There is something very wrong and selfish about withdrawing from a partner and not saying why. As others have said, this is not typical LD. There is much more involved here. I am looking to see if some emotion can be restored to our marriage.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

I can only guess, but I believe she just stopped loving me... or maybe she was just disappointed in life and how things turned out... 

I was in a foreign country and I had just started my business... wasn't earning enough for her to stay at home longer with the children after birth... so she had to go back to work early. I think she resented this and lost respect for me. Unfortunately, moving to a foreign country is not the easiest thing to do, let alone building a business from scratch. If this is the reason, I don't think I can be blamed.

After that, probably a combination of depression, inability to communicate her feelings, maybe feeling trapped, wrong job and lastly OCD + ADs... not a pretty picture. Put 4 kids on top of this and there you go. Mind you, I'm guessing, because she never told me anything, apart from the OCD... 

If she told me any of this, I would have handled it much better... but when you don't know what's going on in your spouse's head, everything gets incredibly complicated and you make mistakes...

I don't think she knew what she was giving up by withdrawing from it... I don't think she did it on purpose... she just didn't know how to handle it...


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## Jasel (Jan 8, 2013)

Stop spinning your wheels and get a divorce. She's not going to change and you're just going to be wasting time, effort, and emotional energy you would be better off saving for someone else. These situations almost never have happy endings, but one constant seems to be the aggrieved spouse who holds onto their sexless marriage for dear life,in many cases for years, all the while lamenting it.


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## In Absentia (Aug 21, 2012)

Jasel said:


> Stop spinning your wheels and get a divorce. She's not going to change and you're just going to be wasting time, effort, and emotional energy you would be better off saving for someone else. These situations almost never have happy endings, but one constant seems to be the aggrieved spouse who holds onto their sexless marriage for dear life,in many cases for years, all the while lamenting it.


If you are referring to me, I stopped spinning my wheels ages ago... will be out soon... :smthumbup:


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Anon1111 said:


> For me, I simply do not trust that my spouse would be there for me in other situations when it "counts" if she can't be there for me sexually. If normal life is too overwhelming and you have a million excuses for why you won't meet this basic need, then why should I believe you are capable of stepping up for me if I hit hard times?


When you view sex as a need for your wife to fulfill, then you've taken away a woman's desire for you. If the LD person sees sex as something they must do in order to avoid negative consequences (whether that's over anger or sullenness or detachment), then you will kill all sexual desire in that person.

I suspect that LD people have never been allowed to enjoy the experience of sex. Sex often comes with pressure from the HD partner. The LD person feels that their HD partner needs it, needs it now, needs it X times a week, needs it to be this and that and the other.

I think many women are LD because their mature sexually under this pressure. The teenagers and young 20 somethings want sex so bad it hurts. To a teenage girl, this desire for her may be very confusing. Does he love me, want me, or just want my body? He won't stay with me if I don't have sex with him, so I will need to have sex with him in order to be in the relationship (perhaps even before she is ready).

As long as she has sex with him, he stays happy. And the more he has sex with her, the more he thinks she's the greatest girl on earth.

Meanwhile she isn't really enjoying the sex (most young men haven't the same skills, know what I mean!). But she tries to like it. Eventually, though, she just isn't that interested anymore. She's always pleasing him with sex and given in to the pressure, but it feels very one sided.

Then the worst thing happens. Her fears come true! When the sex fades, he loses interest. He didn't really love her in the first place; he love having sex with her. 

And when these young women reach adulthood, they haven't found themselves sexually. Sex is something they do in exchange for love. And men get so caught up in "meet my need" and "she doesn't understand what I'm going through" that they don't see their SO has been giving them what they wanted until they couldn't anymore.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

The problem is that many LD's see sex as a zero sum game. That is, "if I give him sex he comes out ahead and I have given him something" so sex is rationed.

There is far more to intimacy than sex but when it's all used to manipulate people it's not worth the effort.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

happy as a clam said:


> THANK YOU!!
> 
> *Intimacy is the GOAL of marriage...*
> 
> ...


Intimacy might be the goal of some folks but marriage = financial security for lots of others. Their goal is realized when the ring hits their finger. Whether they marriage succeeds or fails, they still get paid, so their primary goal will be satisfied regardless of anything they do or don't do after saying "I do".


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## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> When you view sex as a need for your wife to fulfill, then you've taken away a woman's desire for you. If the LD person sees sex as something they must do in order to avoid negative consequences (whether that's over anger or sullenness or detachment), then you will kill all sexual desire in that person.
> 
> I suspect that LD people have never been allowed to enjoy the experience of sex. Sex often comes with pressure from the HD partner. The LD person feels that their HD partner needs it, needs it now, needs it X times a week, needs it to be this and that and the other.
> 
> ...



I would like to know how common this is for those on these boards. I don't think it relates to my situation at all. My wife never said that she felt "used" or that I only wanted her for her body. Of course, if a woman felt that way, I can understand why she would not want to be intimate. It does not seem to be the problem in the majority of cases I read about here.

I read about situations where one partner has lost desire or withdrawn and does not seem to realize that the other partner still has a need for intimacy. The situation you are talking about does happen but I don't believe it is common on here. Let's here from others.


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## norajane (Feb 7, 2012)

Married but not happy said:


> I would like to know how common this is for those on these boards. I don't think it relates to my situation at all. My wife never said that she felt "used" or that I only wanted her for her body. Of course, if a woman felt that way, I can understand why she would not want to be intimate. It does not seem to be the problem in the majority of cases I read about here.
> 
> I read about situations where one partner has lost desire or withdrawn and does not seem to realize that the other partner still has a need for intimacy. The situation you are talking about does happen but I don't believe it is common on here. Let's here from others.


I think it's very common for LD people to feel they are just being used for their bodies by their HD spouses. We actually do hear that on TAM all the time, and then the HD reply is, "but I really want to be close to her emotionally, sex is how I express and receive love."


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Wow I am overwhelmed by the thoughtful comments.



mary35 said:


> ...I don't think most LD's issue with sex is as simple as they just can't get into it due to lack of desire. *I believe that for most - it is way more complicated - and that deep seated resentment is typically a component of their lack of response to their partner - especially if the LD/HD clash has been going on for awhile.* In many cases, I don't think HD's meet the LD's needs either. After awhile -the LD's are no longer interested in making their partner "happy" anymore because they feel their partner is not interested in making them "happy".
> 
> To answer the question of this thread - as a once LD spouse - No I did not understand what I was giving up. *I thought we had a good marriage - a typical marriage. Ironically - my husband also thought we had an OK marriage and also a typical marriage.* That was part of the reason he eventually resigned himself to our marriage being what it was. He didn't think it would be much different with someone else.


I agree that often times there is resentment and anger in a long term LD/HD relationship that slowly destroys both partners souls and causes one or both to emotionally check out of the marrige.



Holdingontoit said:


> HAAC: Been doing this "ridiculous" dance for over 22 years. Did MC and sex therapy from years 5 to 13. I have been resigned to nothing for a decade. I don't dance any longer. It is what it is. *Thankfully, as a guy getting up there in years (we did not marry young), I can't perform anymore so it is less of an issue.*
> 
> High earner married to SAHM. Would owe her lifetime alimony. I am not leaving. What would be the point? *I can't perform so would be pretty stupid to leave over sex now. And anyway, I am so beat down and broken, the only woman who deserves to be hitched to me is the one who broke me. She broke it, she bought it. Hope she is happy*.


I am so sorry you feel this way. ED is not a death sentence, there are lots of things that can be done medically and emotionally to still have a satisfying sex life. Some people really enjoy forced chastity games with no PIV. There are options. I hope that you work on Getting a Life and regain your feeling of sexual self worth.



SurpriseMyself said:


> *When you view sex as a need for your wife to fulfill, then you've taken away a woman's desire for you. If the LD person sees sex as something they must do in order to avoid negative consequences (whether that's over anger or sullenness or detachment), then you will kill all sexual desire in that person.*
> I suspect that LD people have never been allowed to enjoy the experience of sex. Sex often comes with pressure from the HD partner. The LD person feels that their HD partner needs it, needs it now, needs it X times a week, needs it to be this and that and the other.
> 
> I think many women are LD because their mature sexually under this pressure. The teenagers and young 20 somethings want sex so bad it hurts. To a teenage girl, this desire for her may be very confusing. Does he love me, want me, or just want my body? He won't stay with me if I don't have sex with him, so I will need to have sex with him in order to be in the relationship (perhaps even before she is ready).
> ...


Something to think about. Still, even if you sat an LD person down and asked them to visualize what a good marriage was, I would bet it would inlude a sexual component.



norajane said:


> I think it's very common for LD people to feel they are just being used for their bodies by their HD spouses. We actually do hear that on TAM all the time, and then the HD reply is, "but I really want to be close to her emotionally, sex is how I express and receive love."


:iagree:


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## soccermom2three (Jan 4, 2013)

Married but not happy said:


> I would like to know how common this is for those on these boards. I don't think it relates to my situation at all. My wife never said that she felt "used" or that I only wanted her for her body. Of course, if a woman felt that way, I can understand why she would not want to be intimate. It does not seem to be the problem in the majority of cases I read about here.
> 
> I read about situations where one partner has lost desire or withdrawn and does not seem to realize that the other partner still has a need for intimacy. The situation you are talking about does happen but I don't believe it is common on here. Let's here from others.


When I was pretty much ignored all day by my husband (because he was consumed by his numerous hobbies) and then he would come to bed at 1 or 2 am and want sex, I would get that "I'm just being used" feeling. I mean, how can you not? I need intimacy all around not just in bed. I remember crying myself to sleep because I was so lonely. He got a lot of "not tonight's" and duty sex during that time period of our marriage. 

Oh, and I've never been LD.


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## Married but not happy (Jan 11, 2014)

soccermom2three said:


> When I was pretty much ignored all day by my husband (because he was consumed by his numerous hobbies) and then he would come to bed at 1 or 2 am and want sex, I would get that "I'm just being used" feeling. I mean, how can you not? I need intimacy all around not just in bed. I remember crying myself to sleep because I was so lonely. He got a lot of "not tonight's" and duty sex during that time period of our marriage.
> 
> Oh, and I've never been LD.


I do not doubt what you say. It makes me realize that there are many reasons for people not to be intimate. In your situation, it sounds like you would welcome intimacy if your husband paid more attention to you. What about the situations where attention and efforts at emotional connection lead to nothing? This is what I see as common on these boards.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

happy as a clam said:


> What is YOUR price to pay for a shot at happiness???


I do not expect to ever be happy, so I am not going to pay half my assets and income for the chance to be miserable and alone. Not that we have much, she spends like a drunken sailor so we have huge credit card debts and our only savings are some 401k plans. But we barely make ends meet with the house (nothing special, worth like $300k and mortgage is over $200k), kids' college, etc. No way I am living in a dingy little apartment on half. No women wanted me before I graduated school and got a decent job. I don't believe any woman would want me on half my salary. As long as I believe that, it is likely true.

I was broken before she married me. She stomped on the pieces and ground them into dust. I am not looking to do the work to rebuild myself form the ground up. I am not going to impose myself on anyone else. I am going to impose myself on her (just physical presence, not sex, we don't do that any longer) for as long as she will have me. To me, that is the closest we can come to a fair outcome.


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## AnonymousGal (Apr 26, 2015)

I don't think unwanted sex is anything LD's will miss not having.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Holdingontoit said:


> I do not expect to ever be happy, so I am not going to pay half my assets and income for the chance to be miserable and alone. Not that we have much, she spends like a drunken sailor so we have huge credit card debts and our only savings are some 401k plans. But we barely make ends meet with the house (nothing special, worth like $300k and mortgage is over $200k), kids' college, etc. No way I am living in a dingy little apartment on half. No women wanted me before I graduated school and got a decent job. I don't believe any woman would want me on half my salary. As long as I believe that, it is likely true.
> 
> I was broken before she married me. She stomped on the pieces and ground them into dust. I am not looking to do the work to rebuild myself form the ground up. I am not going to impose myself on anyone else. I am going to impose myself on her (just physical presence, not sex, we don't do that any longer) for as long as she will have me. To me, that is the closest we can come to a fair outcome.


This is a very defeatist, sad, and confusing post. I hope you are able to learn from the folks on TAM and move past how you feel today. It's no way for either of you to live. If you were broken before you married her, then why don't you want to do the work to rebuild yourself. It sounds like you are running scared every day.


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## dismissed (Apr 7, 2015)

SurpriseMyself said:


> When you view sex as a need for your wife to fulfill, then you've taken away a woman's desire for you. If the LD person sees sex as something they must do in order to avoid negative consequences (whether that's over anger or sullenness or detachment), then you will kill all sexual desire in that person.
> 
> I suspect that LD people have never been allowed to enjoy the experience of sex. Sex often comes with pressure from the HD partner. The LD person feels that their HD partner needs it, needs it now, needs it X times a week, needs it to be this and that and the other.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to thank you for this. It speaks volumes to the difficulties I have been going through.

Short version: Married 27 years, 4 children, both virgins when we got married right out of college - the sex started off badly and it never got any better. I have never begrudged him sex, I feel like that is his due as my husband - and outside of the bedroom we are extremely compatible. It is only in the last 2 years or so that I've realized that I need it to be better - that I have put up with too much (too little?) for too long. For years I honestly thought I was LD (despite, ahem....taking care of business for myself several times a week.) I have been quietly reading books and forums like this just trying to make things better.

I want to express my appreciation for how well - and how succinctly - you have described this rather complicated dynamic.


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## MarriedToTheOne (Apr 22, 2015)

I see a LOT of layman (layperson?) attitudes expressed here - and a lot of bitter even vicious sounding attitudes of alibi by LD (Low Libido for newbies who might struggle with is all the abbreviations used)) people.

How about some actual experts?

Some major points:

How To Schedule Sex, For SkepticsÂ*|Â*Samantha Rodman PhD

Dr. Phil.com - Advice - Ten Relationship Myths


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