# is hope of reconciliation gone ?



## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

I've been lurking for a while, have read His Needs Her Needs, among dozens of other books since D-Day, and while I know there is a WS Script, I have tried implementing Plan A while absent exposure because I feared "pushing WS away, and losing our child, being forced into a part-time parent role and though it may seem hard to believe there is literally only one person (WS best friend) who WS would remotely consider listening too....but has been actively rejecting her pleas to "wake up".

In a nutshell, this is the story:

Spouse has been having affair, for the past 11 months, with no remorse, shame, and a stated intention of "not stopping".
Over the course of the preceding period, because BS genuinely loves WS, for the sake of maintaining our family(one early elementary aged child) and because everything BS has read indicates affairs "run their course", BS chose to focus effort on understanding and identifying my 50% of responsibility for the problems that contributed to the deterioration of our marriage to the point that spouse was either susceptible to and affair OR felt their was 'no other option' but to pursue happiness elsewhere....and enjoying spending as much time as possible with our child, (effectively babysitting while WS dates the new BF.)

Along the way, Plan A has only yielded increasing disrespect, and uncaring behavior, with the WS appearing to think their actions are occurring in a vacuum with no impact to our child.

When BS informed WS of statements child made in their absence, WS responds with accusations of BS "trying to use emotions against WS", OR if mentioning the marital vows made before God, WS responds with accusation of "trying to use WS religion against WS".

WS has blatantly stated no intention of stopping and has increased meeting BF from every weekend to weekday nights too, WS exhibits all of the typical WS characteristics (lack of respect, lack of remorse, no shame, habitual lying, anger at the slightest and nearly everything the BS does, rewrites history and/or refuses to forgive past mistakes and hurts, holds on to resentment and states "my heart is hardened" and seems "he** bent" on destroying the family.) BS understands this is highly likely because there have been no consequences.

WS refuses to contribute financially to maintaining the household (cc bills, utilities, mortgage, food) . And is content "cake eating" because they know they can. (Legally can not be forced to leave the home, BS owns) 

BS will not initiate divorce due to both religious and personal convictions and unconditional vow before God, "til death do us part". 

WS's believes their income is theirs and BS can "foot the bill" both in monetary and emotional currency so that WS can carry on their inappropriate relationship.

While BS is committed to the marriage, and avoiding breaking apart the family, and not treating our child like a commodity (splitting the childs life into % yours % mine), WS appears to have no concern for anyone or anything other than themselves and their "happiness".

BS finally told WS, if and while you choose to continue affair, You need to leave our home. WS said not without child.
BS clearly stated, "I don't want you to leave, I want you to stop doing what your doing and work on our marriage." "I do not want a divorce." But, IF you do, you need to file.

WS said, Fine...I'll start pursuing mediation. (There is no legal separation in our state, and BS would not want to put child through two instances of trauma....1st "Separating" and 2nd "Divorce". )

I apologize for the rambling, I'm just losing hope and faith that the outcome will be anything but what the WS wants.


P.S. - WS has rejected their best friends input (the only person who had any hope of 'getting through' to WS) because they do not support WS affair. WS "Family" is dysfunctional and anything they said would "fall on deaf ears" of WS. (Because they barely speak anyways.)

Only recently discovered OM is divorced with 3 children, so exposure to Ex any value ?

Is exposure of the OM family (relative of last name on facebook friend list) of any value if there is no OM wife in the picture ?


Thanks in advance for any opinions.


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

Exposé to the community and divorce their cheating butt. While I understand your convictions, they don't include being played for a fool or being a passive doormat.

Btw, affairs don't burn out, that's crap. Sitting back and waiting is a fools game.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

Frankly I would ki** the om's as* but thats just me. You have acted in such a way that she not only has zero respect for you she despises you too.

Go to Mens Clubhouse read the stickies and man up. By now she probably pities you. Good luck so far you have done everything wrong.


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## bryanp (Aug 25, 2011)

Nobody respects a doormat. If you do not respect yourself then who will?


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## InFlux (Oct 30, 2011)

I feel for you. I'm in much the same situation -- my WS has been in an ongoing relationship for the past year. I have two young girls as well so can appreciate your desire to hold things together for their sakes. Believe me, it tears me apart to think of how their world would get shattered by divorce but as time goes on and we are, de facto, already living as a divorced family (since my WW is out much of the time with her boy toy). I'm wondering how different would it really be? As it is now, my girls are being fed the illusion that everything is OK. But it's not. And they see it. My wife this week is in Europe with her "friend" and my girls keep asking "where's mommy"? I just keep telling them to call her if they want to talk to her. Point is, this "life" is no way to live. Point is, are you doing your kid a favor by covering for your WW, waiting for her to "wake up"? We can't control other people. The only person you have any reliable influence over is yourself. And at some point you realize, like I did, that you can't wait any longer. You can't wait any longer because YOU can't be the father you need to be to your kid while you're living this way. YOU can't find peace, happiness, and acceptance from a life partner when they are stepping on it every day. It's not healthy. For anyone. Yes, divorce is not desirable, but it may actually be preferable in this case. If you're religious, then the fact that your wife is committing adultery makes divorce acceptable even in God's eyes so I'm not sure I buy the religious argument. As far as personal convictions, look -- nobody gets married thinking it's going to be anything less than the rest of their lives. Nobody can predict the future, and hindsight is 20/20. Stop beating yourself up and start accepting the reality of the situation. If not for yourself then for your kid. Start working on yourself. Disconnect from your WW. Work out, connect with old friends and/or make new ones. Force your WW to watch the kid for a change. Go on a roadtrip with a good friend and tell her you'll be back in a couple of days. Tell her to have fun with the kid. And ignore her. She won't abandon her motherly duties -- don't worry. Stop being the doormat! And, yes, file for divorce. Have her served. If reconciliation is in the cards you can always abort the suit. Believe me, YOU want to be driving the divorce process, not her. If you get divorced, it will be on your terms and on your schedule.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Adultury is the ONLY acceptable reason for divorce in Gods eyes, and it is acceptable. I have been where you are, no remorse no caring from WS. She is living her fog with no repercussions from you, why would she want to change? You need to man up, you need to take care of yourself. You are in denial, you are only making limbo last longer. So sorry for your problem, but you are not making it any better by delaying. Kids are smart, they will figure it out if they havent already.


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

Mine is acting similarly but on a much shorter timeline (well, he has been cheating for a longer time, but I have known a very short time). I am not putting up with it, he was served yesterday.


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

WS chose to start and affair, WS chooses to continue affair, WS will choose to stop affair or WS will initiate dissolution.

I know it seems like whining, but it's not because it's the reality of the circumstances:
I can't force her to leave our home.
I can't force her to "share" her income, which by the way is not "maritial property" subject to 50/50 sharing until after a divorce action has been filed.
I can't force her to not choose immoral behavior.
I can't force her to not act like she doesn't have a family.
I can't force her to stop lying.
I can't force her to want to be with me and our child more than she wants to be with OM.
I can't force her to do anything.
And I can't volunteer to become a part-time parent. It may be forced upon me, but I can not ask to give up experiencing 50% of my childs life growing up.

I have tolerated her bad behavior, praying for a change WHILE working on myself and trying to make our home a place she can see is better than what OM offers and believe I could bear any venomous words or actions WS threw at BS, until WS started becoming uncaring of how her actions impacted our child. (Leaving all day on the weekend, returning at 9:00 p.m. after child goes to bed....and lying to BS and child about who she was with and what she was doing.) And WS saying "I deserve to have a life, and not be around 24/7." :-o

I can not bear the thought of our child EVER thinking that I was "o.k." with breaking up our family and causing them to only be with me at best 50% of their lives.

I have difficulty understanding how being the responsible parent and trying to shield a child to the greatest extent possible from being impacted by the irresponsible choices of a spouse is being a doormat. My "happiness" was my spouse and my family, my happiness was not defined by activities or people outside my family.

I believe WS chose an 'exit affair' as her means of dealing with our problems, and became irate and surprised when I kept my word that "divorce is not an option"....given WS has stated, "We'll see how you feel after another year of this...."

I realize she has no respect, seething resentment and near hatred (though she denies this) toward me for not "going allowing with her plan".


I'm trying to figure our if exposure of the OM and telling her family and friends at this point is of any value. OR Will it only enflame her hatred and make coparenting (assuming she does follow through with D) and our future relationship more difficult than it would otherwise be ?

Is exposure of the OM family (relative of last name on facebook friend list) of any value if there is no OMW in the picture ?


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

Well you've done everything wrong up to now, you might as well continue. Don't expose, let her contempt for you grow. Eventually your child will pick up on the contempt she has for you and will start disrespecting you as well. As your child moves into early teens, he/she will push the envelope and want to live with the one that gives in to him/her the most. He/she will learn to manipulate you just like mom did. The child will most likely choose to live with your skanky wife. She will actually get pleasure from impeding your parenting. Eventually, if your lucky, your kid may have an epiphany. Maybe after 3 or 4 failed relationships. Keep feeding your wife's contempt. It will pay dividends in your child's life.

Oh, and just to alert you. Exposing your wife's cheating will make her angry, but that is not the same as contempt. Contempt is the systematic devaluation of the other person. Carried to extreme it causes a wonderful transformation in the individual and society as a whole. Carried to its extreme you get things like the Holocaust, or the khmer rouge.

P.S. The sad/funny thing is, if your child does not have a calloused heart, and you have open communication, when the epiphany does come, the child could quite possibly say "why did you stay married to mom so long? She is not a good person, you should have more self respect. Then you will have regret. Regret is a horrible thing.


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

I've done everything wrong ? 

While I realize what I've done has accomplished near nothing to impact my WS behavior....I don't see what I've done as wrong....I am in better shape both physical and understanding myself and how my actions and choices in the past may have caused my WS to feel hurt (though it was never my intention to hurt her). AND I've maitained FT Parent role for longer than pursuing a divorce would result in.


WS Family - uncommunicative (literally, 1-2 phone calls all year)....their opinions mean nothing to WS.

WS Friends - total: 2 (close who already know and have unsuccessfully and continue to try to "get through"...but WS has stopped contacting and responding to them) 

other WS friends = acquaintances - Do I randomly pick people from the pool of acquaintances to tell ?

OM until three weeks ago, appeard to be a single person, recently discovered is recently divorced. Any value in exposing to OM-EX ?
Shotgunning the OM's friend list on facebook is exposing myself to defamation of character legal problems....(which even if proveably false, is expensive to defend against)

Do you see my desperation ? I'm asking for ideas, because I realize what I've done up to know has only made things worse.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

GREAT! You have finally come to acceptance. That's the first step. The exposure is not to punish her. Its to rip away the veil of contempt and disrespect. ITS THE TRUTH. Up to now you have been in the fog. Your wife is not in a fog. She doesn't give a damn about you. You needed to wake up, not her. Your wife is a calloused skank, who sacrificed her marriage, her family and even her place as a mom. 

Your focus is on her. Forget her. Start working on yourself. Quit acting out of fear. Learn the 180 and use it. Your family is now you and your child. He/she is watching everything you do. If you respect yourself, and do what is right, your child will respect you too. Forget the skank, she is cast in iron.

I don't know what your faith is. But in my Christian faith, it is written. "If a man/woman does not provide for their family, they are WORSE then an unbeliever"


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

> WS chose to start and affair, WS chooses to continue affair, WS will choose to stop affair or WS will initiate dissolution.


She won't stop the affair while she has ever thing she wants. What would be the motivation to change anything? 



> I know it seems like whining, but it's not because it's the reality of the circumstances:
> I can't force her to leave our home.


Are you going to move in to the spare room while she brings her BF home soon? 




> I can't force her to "share" her income, which by the way is not "maritial property" subject to 50/50 sharing until after a divorce action has been filed.


File For Divorce. You can always stop it.



> I can't force her to not choose immoral behavior.
> I can't force her to not act like she doesn't have a family.
> I can't force her to stop lying.
> I can't force her to want to be with me and our child more than she wants to be with OM.
> I can't force her to do anything.


You are right. You can only change how you deal with it and what you are willing to DO about it.



> And I can't volunteer to become a part-time parent. It may be forced upon me, but I can not ask to give up experiencing 50% of my childs life growing up.


You din't volunteer. I hate being a part time parent but it is better than what you have. When the kids are with me they relax. I can see them doing it. They walk in the door and give a big "I'm home" sigh. Isn't that better than the hell you are in



> I have tolerated her bad behavior, praying for a change WHILE working on myself and trying to make our home a place she can see is better than what OM offers and believe I could bear any venomous words or actions WS threw at BS, until WS started becoming uncaring of how her actions impacted our child. (Leaving all day on the weekend, returning at 9:00 p.m. after child goes to bed....and lying to BS and child about who she was with and what she was doing.) And WS saying "I deserve to have a life, and not be around 24/7." :-o


This is what you want your child to see? How old is the child?




> I can not bear the thought of our child EVER thinking that I was "o.k." with breaking up our family and causing them to only be with me at best 50% of their lives.


You did not choose this. You have not broken the family. She has.




> I have difficulty understanding how being the responsible parent and trying to shield a child to the greatest extent possible from being impacted by the irresponsible choices of a spouse is being a doormat. My "happiness" was my spouse and my family, my happiness was not defined by activities or people outside my family.


hmmm. My kids see me as strong. They respect me for being honest and they respect me for not allowing myself to be treated as a doormat. My relationship with my kids has never been better. 


> I believe WS chose an 'exit affair' as her means of dealing with our problems, and became irate and surprised when I kept my word that "divorce is not an option"....given WS has stated, "We'll see how you feel after another year of this....


"
They say the nastiest things don't they. You need to look at why you want to stay married to this person.





> I realize she has no respect, seething resentment and near hatred (though she denies this) toward me for not "going allowing with her plan"


.

Her plan is to eat cake. It is what they do. she is at stage one. "I hate you and I want to Divorce you"
If you behave like someone who respects them self and will do what is required to protect your child from this frankly abhorrent behaviour.




> I'm trying to figure our if exposure of the OM and telling her family and friends at this point is of any value. OR Will it only enflame her hatred and make coparenting (assuming she does follow through with D) and our future relationship more difficult than it would otherwise be ?


Who cares about the future relationship. It will be limited to business like communication. how could she hate you any more. Just look at what she is doing to you.


You need to do the 180. You need to MAN UP. You need to show her that you are no longer willing to be a doormat. You are DEEPLY unattractive to her at the moment. 
You need to set boundaries.
My stbxw is trying to Reconcile with me after 8 months of banging another guy. I pulled a VERY HARD 180. Total No contact [ except when I broke it, we all do]
Make her aware that you love her but this is not acceptable.

You need to lovingly detach and do it now. She knows she has you by the balls...

You are deep in the BS FOG. Snap out of it!!


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

They are right you know....

My 17 year old said to me this morning, mom, I know why you had to file for divorce, dad will not stop living with OW, and I think he is doing everything he can to get YOU to have to make the decision (which is actually a pattern in our marriage)

My 11 and 12 year old daughters said similar things and that they respected this was what I had to do... they know what their dad is doing and even they get that I deserve better.


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

:iagree::iagree::iagree: Thank you lisa for the object lesson. It will probably help him more then anything that has been written to him up to now.


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

Our child is 6.

'You need to lovingly detach and do it now."

How do you detach while sharing a residence ? And not create a toxic environment for your child ?

I thought I was "doing the right thing" by telling WS if she chose to continue affair, she needed to leave....but she said no and you can't force me to leave....and I discovered (after seeking legal counsel) she was right. 

So what was the point of saying "you need to leave" ?

You read all of these posts where people say, "i threw them out"....well, at least in our state....no one can "throw out" another's spouse. You can ask them to leave, but you have no ability to "kick them to the curb" and force them to face the consequences of their actions.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Since the situation makes exposure do no good, I think you have to divorce her. You cannot go on like this forever. It will kill you.
This is her choice, she is just too cowardly to file hersef.
I had the exact same situation. 3 kids, very determined to make things work, willing to lok at myself, etc. My XW ,simply, would not stop. I had to file.
Sorry she has done this to you. She sounds very cruel and abusive.


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## calif_hope (Feb 25, 2011)

Tofargobe

Due to the actions if your wife, you no longer have a marriage, the covenant is broken. What you have left is a civil union that you must exit yourself from for the spiritual, mental and physical health of you and your child....right now your family is you and your child. I cannot believe that your church or faith group holds that you should remain in this situation. 

So sir, man-up, quit being a door mat, quit talking about what you should be doing, quit over thinking - become a MAN if focused action.

Get yourself a VAR and carry withyou - secretly record your conversations with you *****....she could play dirty and put you in a he said / she said situation - don't worry about the law on this - better to deal with the authorities on a recording case than a false domestic violence case.

See a lawyer, learn your rights, file for divorce and if your faith group has the process - file for an annulment.

Expose the affair and betrayal - friends, faith group, family, share your side - that you can no longer tolerate her behavior and you had to take action.

Do what you have to do to get her out of the house, you haven't already done so cut her off from your money. Keep keep and protect financial records....document her non-contribution to the household.

God does not require you to live your life as a ****hold. 

So quit your candyass wining - MAN UP - become the father you children deserve and take action.....become a focused fury!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

Have consulted / am consulting lawyer, which is how I verified that the concept of "kicking WS to the curb" while sounding nice and tough, is legally impossible.

Make no mistake, I will do what's best for our child, which trying to save our marriage and maintain the stability of a low conflict unbroken home WAS in their best interest. This I do not regret.

But its clear now, that WS had no intention of allowing that, and may never care about the destruction and negative consequences her actions will heap upon our innocent child.

Someday, our child will see the divorce decree, and I have no doubt WS will twist and rewrite history to justify her choices and like everything else, I have no control over that. But I will not be the Petitioner: and by definition the one who "gave up".

I guess, I don't understand what is meant by "respecting" yourself if it means taking actions that are focused on yourself over consideration of the impact on others.

I'm not being argumentative, I really don't see putting your interests subservient to you child's as a lack of self respect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

VAR is a good idea, because WS integrity and morales were the first thing she destroyed on her quest for "happiness".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

toofargone said:


> I'm not being argumentative, I really don't see putting your interests subservient to you child's as a lack of self respect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Dont you see this is exactly what you are not doing! YOU want the marriage, YOU want your spouse. To continue on this relationship will only HURT your child. You are unwilling to do what needs to be done because of YOU. 
Sorry for your troubles, I have been right where you are now. My only saving grace has been my children were all adults (110 days from DDay) Two weeks after discovering the A, my one daughter age 25 said to me. "Dad, I love mom, she is a great mom. However she has never been happy, you tried to make her happy, you couldnt, she will never be happy. Dad, you can do better!" Kids get it, they know the situation almost as good as you do, maybe in some ways better. Make them proud, Man up!


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## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

toofargone said:


> BS will not initiate divorce due to both religious and personal convictions and unconditional vow before God, "til death do us part".


Matthew 19:9

9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, *except it be for fornication,* and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.


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## calif_hope (Feb 25, 2011)

Not logical - "Being the petitioner equals the one who gave up" - the petitioner / responder is circumstantial to each case - in your case see it as she is the one to give up, you being the one who wants to move on from your sickening life circumstance so that you and your child can heal BEFORE TO MUCH DAMAGE is done to you and your child.

File, it's the only option you have I believe to save your marriage, it's the Alpha thing to do......look every time your "wife" lays with her 'boy friend' she loses more respect for you, it's clear from your post that she sees you as a wimp......she does not respect you.....being the suffering husband keeping the homefires burning while she ............!

Simply, you are not giving up on anything if you file it's over, just the legal stuff is left and moving on towards a better life.

Then theirs the possibilty that if you man up and file, do a 180, be aggressive in protecting you children from her immoral and damaging behavior and certainly to keep your kid(s) from being in the presence of (your???) wife's lover. Just might give her a reality check that breaks through the fantasy fog she is living in.

She is daring you to file, she sees you in her pocket, call her bluff - file!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

I'm aware of the biblical justification for chosing divorce, but it remains a choice.

" YOU want the marriage, YOU want your spouse."
-True, I want my spouse, not the alien that has overtaken her body and mind.
There is little to no resemblance between the two, which is why I was in shock on D-Day and a few months after.

" You are unwilling to do what needs to be done because of YOU." 

So, I'm lacking self respect because I did not give up on my marriage or my spouse and tried holding things together, while my spouse chose to break their vow ?

I thought it was more like being committed and dedicated, unconditionally.

I asked for other peoples opinions, and now I'm trying to understand the input.

But obviously am still "not getting it".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

".. she has never been happy, you tried to make her happy, you couldnt, she will never be happy."

Oddly enough, I'm wondering if this isn't true in part in my situation too.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ClipClop (Apr 28, 2011)

yes you have self respect because you allowed your wife to treat you so poorly. that isn't fighting for your family I certainly would have a respect for you as a woman . if you going to allow it she's gonna do it what do you expect . 


tell her no mediation take her to court . 

You file because you are going to finally take control. If you don't she will stay and do as she pleases. Your only hope is to let her know you will protect your child an your assets and that she is on her own.

Let her move out after you present her with a custody agreement. Right now she has a babysitter. Not a husband. 

But honestly I think this marriage is done. If I were either of you, I would have no respect for the other. She is a cheat and you are less of a man for not filing immediately when she proved she would not stop the affair. A man has boundaries. You just talk about boundaries. A man enforces boundaries. You just talk about them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

toofargone said:


> I can not bear the thought of our child EVER thinking that I was "o.k." with breaking up our family and causing them to only be with me at best 50% of their lives.
> 
> I have difficulty understanding how being the responsible parent and trying to shield a child to the greatest extent possible from being impacted by the irresponsible choices of a spouse is being a doormat. My "happiness" was my spouse and my family, my happiness was not defined by activities or people outside my family.


The hardest part the victim has in all of this is caring for the children. I feel your pain, i was there once upon a time. I would like to share my input...as I see it from when I was a child.

I learned a lot from my father growing up. I learned how to throw a baseball. How to kick a field goal. How to fish with plastic worms for bass.

I also learned that his lifestyle was vastly more important than the marriage to my mother. His womanizing and cheating was a part of our everyday lives, although we (my sisters and I) didn't know it at the time. My mother made sure of that as she supported all his endeavors, to the detriment of her own well being. 


Thus, I grew up thinking that a "normal" marriage/family functioned like this:

1. It was OK for Dad to be out all night and Mom could say nothing about it.
2. It was my mothers "*****iness" (Dads word) that kept my Dad out, not that my mothers "*****iness" was caused by an unfaithful husband.
3. The families needs came second to whatever the Dad wanted.
4. Marriage was just something people had to do to have kids.
5. Loyalty to ones spouse was optional.

The list goes on and on....


It wasn't until I was in my late 20's that the truth of what was going on in my youth hit home....I still have to work to overturn the teachings of my father.

Your children learn from what they see, and to think that you are protecting them from trauma is really doing them a disservice. 

Right now they are learning what they think a mother is supposed to do in a marriage....doesn't matter if its good or bad..because they have only one real teacher for the "Mom" portion and that is their Mom.

If you allow this to continue for weeks, months or like my Mother did...years...you are only reinforcing this bad behavior and giving it validity.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

toofargone said:


> Is hope of reconciliation gone?


No way to know until LS actually tries it.

But as long as LS is able to hold onto his paper thin justifications for his inability to find the courage to take action... then no, there is no hope.


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

I just filed yesterday... and I did it BECAUSE of my girls. Maybe it is because I am a woman, but you know what the final decision making thought was for me?? 

WHAT would I tell any of my THREE daughters to do if ANY man was treating them with the kind of disrespect my STBX was/is treating me with? I'd tell him to kick him to the curb ASAP.

My WH cheated and lied to me for one and a half years!
My WH upon discovery blamed me
My WH moved immediately in with the OW upon my kicking him out
My WH was welcomed back under totally reasonable conditions, he decided he couldn't live with them
My WH moved back in with the OW while still married to me only 1/2 mile away from our home and across the street from my 17 yo high school

Even if he hated my guts right now, refusal to stop the affair, refusal to go to counseling and continuing this affair as a live in RIGHT UNDER OUR NOSES is the freaking ULTIMATE disrespect and that is whay your WW is doing too, only she is living with you too... talk about cake eating. 

I don't want my kids to have a broken family, but is more important to teach them that I won't take it and neither should they.


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

Two: I noticed you quoted all my post except for the part where I point out to you that staying with your WS could hurt your children. As for wanting your "old" wife back... I get that completely and I mean COMPLETELY. Even tho I am over a 100 days out, I still miss my old wife daily, trouble is is that she does not exist anymore. (I was married for 30 years) wishing for something does not make it so. You are in limbo and limbo sucks the life right out of you. I wish I could do more to help you, because I could use some of the same medicine. But I hated limbo, I took it upon myself to lose 50 lbs, started exercising, eating right, and have been on two trips. I wont allow myself to just sit around and worry, sigh, and wait, you should not either. If I am going down I am going down fighting, come on COME WITH ME!


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

I should point out, that upon learning of the A, my xw immediately moved into the OM home, 5 blocks from my home, (he had been a family friend for 20 years) I ended up flying to Florida, buying a ticket at 3am because that is where my xw was going to see about our grandaughter, just to talk with my xw and offer reconciliation for a third time, and she was not interested. I understand doing all that you can do to save the marriage, but if they aint interested, THEY AINT INTERESTED. Bible says offer three times, after three brush them off your coat and go on, dont continue to roll in the dirt!


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

Hoosier,

It was after third time, that I told WS, "You need to leave, while you choose to live like you are single with no family.". Which as I already said was pointless, because I have no legal ability to follow through.

And, because WS has made it clear she is not ashamed of what she has chosen to do, I no longer feel a need to be concerned about who knows about her bad behavior choice.

I am stuck on the fact that, filing is volunteering to lose my ability to tuck my child into bed, read bedtime stories, and play after coming home from work everynight. And filing, besides my vow not being conditional on anything, seems to me to be compromising my integrity. "....till death do us part, or until I'm not happy, or you treat me poorlyand unlovingly, or you .:....". No one else appears to see that perspective. Add to that, I "doubled down" on my level of commitment when we chose to bring an innocent life into the world. and she had indicated that she had too. But somewhere along the way, "things changed".

I want to expose as a last ditch effort, once I discovered OM appeared to be married, but a few days later after digging more using the spouses name, I discovered they were divorced.

So I'm back to questioning, is exposure to an EX-W
of any value ?

And yes, I agree, a single person interested in making a marriage work, won't work.
For the reasons previously stated, I've been patient and held out hope for a turnaround
Not wanting to reveal my spouses behavior if we had a chance to reconcile.

But I finally see, fear of revealing a problem traps you in the problem.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

toofargone said:


> Have consulted / am consulting lawyer, which is how I verified that the concept of "kicking WS to the curb" while sounding nice and tough, is legally impossible.
> 
> Make no mistake, I will do what's best for our child, which trying to save our marriage and maintain the stability of a low conflict unbroken home WAS in their best interest. This I do not regret.
> 
> ...


Being the petitoner does not mean you gave up. What is there to give up?

And, your inaction maybe more detrimental to your child than filing. Your child will soon se, if he or she does not already, that cheating has little consequuence. 
Holding onto the marriage at all costs or to look as if you are not giving up is harming you and your child. Your child needs you to be healthy and strong. Having to endure this for an extended period of time will affect you mentally and physically, such that you may be unable to care for your child.
Read up on personality disorders. Your wife sounds like she has one.


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## lisa3girls (Apr 6, 2011)

Why don't you ask for custody? I did.. my stbx does not deserve it.


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Not to take this to too much of a logical extreme, as bot civil and religous law recognizes infidelity as a valid reason to void the contract, but, under your analysis, there is , virtually noactivity that your wife could undertake, that would allow for you to divorce her. She could harm your child, toture animals, become a hooker, whatever, and you seem to feel that your vows still require you to stick by her.
Clearly, when you made your voes, both of you contemplated that there would be certain acitivitis=es that would void the contract. The for better or for worse part should not apply to harmful , immoral actions taken voluntarily and whiich actively casue harm to you.
Would you recommend a man stay with his wife if she beat him severely routinely? would the "for better or worse" clause apply?


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

"But I finally see, fear of revealing a problem traps you in the problem."

Very perceptive. Looking at the situation happening at Penn state, that is exactly what traps these poor children in silence. They fear. Fear their parents may be angry at them, like they actually were at fault. They worry that they won't be believed. And of course that is what the perps encourage. 

You seem to think that you have something to prove to God, regarding your wedding vows. He understands that "we are but dust" or how my pastor use to say it, "He understands that we are butt dust". God does hate divorce. But do you remember what Christ said. "If anyone hurts one of these little ones, it would be better for him that he had a millstone around his neck and be cast in the deepest part of the ocean." Your wife is systematically devaluing you, its called contempt. Your child will see this (it just can't be hidden). You speak of your integrity when speaking about your marriage vows, and I applaud you for it (my wife and I are married 32 years, of course not without problems). But there is more at stake then your integrity. There is the formation of your child's character.
If your child is exampled a dysfunctional family life, it is what he will come to know as "the way things should be". He will look for women like his mom. And he will fill the roll that you now have. Consider wisely.


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## TRy (Sep 14, 2011)

toofargone said:


> I am stuck on the fact that, filing is volunteering to lose my ability to tuck my child into bed, read bedtime stories, and play after coming home from work everynight.


Your child will only be small for a very short period of time. Soon they will figure out what is going on and lose all respect for you. This will forever have a negative impact on your relationship with them. I truly enjoy that fact that my children now turn to me for advice. Your child will not do that with you.

If you do not divorce your wife now, for the vast majority of your child's life they will be old enough to not respect you, and will in fact turn to your wife for advice. Based on the fact that they do not respect you, they may even sympathize with your wife when she tells them that she only stayed married to you because of them.

If you divorce your wife now and tell you child why, they will blame your wife for the divorce. Also, you wife's bad example may impact the judge when determining custody rights.


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

Arnold said:


> . . .under your analysis, there is , virtually no activity that your wife could undertake, that would allow for you to divorce her.
> 
> ....The for better or for worse part should not apply to harmful , immoral actions taken voluntarily and whiich actively casue harm to you.
> 
> Would you recommend a man stay with his wife if she beat him severely routinely? would the "for better or worse" clause apply?


I'm not sure it's a matter of "allowing" divorce, but more like "divorce is not an option" commitment to your spouse the only person to whom you made a lifetime commitment.

Commitment does not imply remaining or subjecting either you or your child to an abusive, life threatening environment while your spouse engages in "abnormal"(harmful or immoral) behavior.

Of course, in those circumstances you would protect yourself and your child from any danger.

Commitment does require you to try to hold out hope for your spouse, and offer help to your spouse get back to "normal", rather than "cut bait" and walk away because they have chosen to compromise their vows and can't "see" right now, the self destructive path they are currently on.

If divorce is an option, the majority of people will construct or rationalize a way to take it because it's perceived as a path that is less intolerable than what it would take to work at making the future better.

That is why I believe that "divorce is not an option", and it gives the appearance that I have chosen to be a "doormat" because I believe it is viewed by most as exhibiting a irrational commitment level.

But as a spouse continues to "ratchet up" the bad behavior elements, it's becoming clearer that they may be toofargone and may never turn back from the path they are on. And under that scenario, at least I'll know that I did everything I felt necessary to afford a path of return to recommitment.

And it was they who gave up, and not me.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

So what would you be advising your child if he/she were being subjected to this emotional abuse by their spouse? Would you be so willing to stand by and tell them to endure this agony just so they could say they weren't the one to supposedly quit?


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> So what would you be advising your child if he/she were being subjected to this emotional abuse by their spouse?
> 
> Would you be so willing to stand by and tell them to endure this agony just so they could say they weren't the one to supposedly quit?


After making an effort that includes everything they have control over doing, I would tell them:

You can't make another person care, either about you or how their actions and choices effect others or themselves.

Your only option remaining is too try to minimize the trauma of their choices. 

Realize you are not responsible for the consequences of their choice(s).

Focus on the reality of a situation, rather than what you wish would be.

Do not tie yourself in knots over something you have no power to change. 

Would say a lot more....but this is the gist.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Hoosier (May 17, 2011)

toofargone said:


> After making an effort that includes everything they have control over doing, I would tell them:
> 
> You can't make another person care, either about you or how their actions and choices effect others or themselves.
> 
> ...


:iagree:
Awesome advice!


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## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

toofar,

People on this site are just trying to get you pointed in the right direction.

Your original title was "is hope of reconciliation gone ?" Which implied that you want to reconcile....thus people are trying to get you on that path....by showing you what works.

On your present path...there is no hope of reconciliation. Now...could your wife wake up one day and realize the destruction she has caused...turn around her life...then decide to work with you on the healing process? Sure....but the chances of that happening are slim to none.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

Shaggy said:


> Exposé to the community and divorce their cheating butt. While I understand your convictions, they don't include being played for a fool or being a passive doormat.
> 
> *Btw, affairs don't burn out, that's crap. Sitting back and waiting is a fools game.*
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


:iagree:

Even if they did why in the world would any BS accept this. Oh let them have their affair. It will run its course and then they will come back to me. I do understand that many approach it this way for a time and some will say with success. But at what cost!? But mainly if one is serious about reconsiliation one has to take a more positive approach to stopping the affair.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

toofargone said:


> I've done everything wrong ?
> 
> While I realize what I've done has accomplished near nothing to impact my WS behavior....I don't see what I've done as wrong....I am in better shape both physical and understanding myself and how my actions and choices in the past may have caused my WS to feel hurt (though it was never my intention to hurt her). AND I've maitained FT Parent role for longer than pursuing a divorce would result in.
> 
> ...


You have to be an example to your children. Being a doormat is not healthy for them to see. It starts a cycle of living in a disfunctional family. It is also counter to reconsiliation.


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

toofargone said:


> You can't make another person care, either about you or how their actions and choices effect others or themselves.
> 
> Your only option remaining is too try to minimize the trauma of their choices.
> 
> ...


Good advice. You should send a private message to the guy that started this thread.


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> :iagree:
> ....if one is serious about reconsiliation one has to take a more positive approach to stopping the affair.


I'm still wondering if anyone has experience with, "Is exposing to an EX-W any value ?"
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Pit-of-my-stomach (Nov 2, 2010)

it is... anything at this point is. 

take this perspective: your goal and the highest priority should be to make this stop. Either, this affair stops while you live under the same roof, or you don't live under the same roof.

You have one trump, PRESSURE. Relentless PRESSURE. You have to make this as uncomfotable as humanly possible on her and on the OM. Take off those candy a$$ gloves damn it. THIS MUST STOP.

As a man, as a father and as a husband this can not be tolerated any further. Wake up, your marriage is over. Your priority is.....

*Your only option remaining is too try to minimize the trauma of their choices. *

Her choice HAS BEEN MADE. Allowing this dynamic to continue is MAXIMIZING the trauma of that choice. Stop playing the martyr. Take action. 

You are so wrapped up in living within the constraints of HER RULES and HER FANTASY WORLD that you are failing to recognize you are dealing with someone that is an addict, she is wrong, she is hurting you, hurting your daughter and hurting herself!! 

In every regard you are in the RIGHT for taking action to stop this! She is wrong in every respect and cripled mentally and emotionally by her addiction. STOP playing by her rules!!! 

Do you understand?. You hold the cards if you would only have the balls to use them. Stop acting helpless and stop making excuses for yourself, YOU ARE IN THE RIGHT. 

Scream from the top of the mountain if thats what it takes. Expose this to his EX, her employer, his mother, whomever it takes!!! This IS WRONG!!! 

Stop shielding her from the consequences of her choice!!!

*Realize you are not responsible for the consequences of their choice(s).*

A wise father once said...

*Focus on the reality of a situation, rather than what you wish would be.*


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

The big point here is not so much the legal side but the emotional impact of saying " I no longer will share you and I'm confident enough to let you go"..

So you can't make her leave but you sure can stand by the fact that you no longer want her around and can give her up and the marriage. So right now its not so much her phsyically leaving but the simple fact that you are confident to move on with out her by stating that she should move out.

I suggest you wish her all the best and as long as she continues the A you will do your part in making it as inconvienent and as uncomfortable as possible, b/c you know what.....she can't make you leave either.

I know its tough with the kids and all but you are fighting for them and your marriage. So emotional speaking, kick her out , kick her out of the house that is your life.

Start taking the kids out with out her, back up the b*llsh*t the kids have to deal with by doing extra stuff with them with out your wife.

Stop letting her blackmailing you with the kids. It is not your fault,but no matter what, your wife has brought this crap on the kids, not you. You have no control on how or what your wife does in effecting the kids. Alls you can do is be there for them...its clear your wife isn't. Bottom line your kids are already effected so stop trying to hind her behavior but explain it in the terms that best fits there age.

I'm in the group that stands behind making the affair as uncomfortable as possible and no matter how hard you try your W behavior is effecting them so face it with them.


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

the guy said:


> The big point here is not so much the legal side but the emotional impact of saying " I no longer will share you and I'm confident enough to let you go"..
> 
> So you can't make her leave but you sure can stand by the fact that you no longer want her around and can give her up and the marriage. So right now its not so much her phsyically leaving but the simple fact that you are confident to move on with out her by stating that she should move out.
> 
> ...


You summarized the point that I've arrived at after 11 months of holding on to hope that she will "see the light" and turnaround....

Because of her continuing actions and statements....she has no shame, remorse or intent to stop. So, I shouldn't be concerned anymore about anyone knowing what she has so blatantly stated as her "intention to not stop".

But on one hand, given her stated intention of pursuing dissolution.....I can't help but wonder if "exposing" at this point is a.) too late, and b.) would only galvanize her already hardened heart and farther complicate and make more difficult the "CO-Parenting" / part-time dad role we'll have to engage in to raise our child ? And provide, in her warped sense of reality justification for being even more vindictive and resentful towards me in the future.

I'm 95 % prepared to "pull the trigger" on exposure because there's no guarantee even if I don't, she won't be less challenging to deal with in the future. But I can with near certainty guarantee doing so will forever be used against me given her current mindset and perception that I am "all that is evil in her world".


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## InFlux (Oct 30, 2011)

You need to $h!t or get off the pot! Right now SHE IS DRIVING YOUR LIFE! She has no reason to stop nor will she. She will not file -- that's just feminist bull$h!t talking. Unless she has an iron-clad "sure thing" with her boy toy (yeah right!) she won't EVER file. Why would she? She has the perfect situation right now. You're taking care of the kids and making the money while she gets to have fun without the kids and spends your money. She has zero, if not negative, respect for you (as, I might add, does boy toy). She will not "wake up". You've already been waiting for 11 months. YOU need to wake up! Believe me, I know it's hard, but you can do it! You MUST do it! You need to pull a hard 180 from what you've currently been doing. You need to become an alpha male for perhaps the first time in your relationship. I promise you, if you do that, your WW might actually come back to you. It's counter intuitive but women don't like/respect "nice guys". They say they do but what they really want are MEN. Not abusive, callous a-holes, but fully-integrated, alpha MEN. A man is confident, a man takes action when the chips are down and make the hard call, a man protects what's his. A man defends and takes action upon his convictions and beliefs. Our western society, and America post-WW II in particular, has made the "nice guy syndrome" sadly very common. It's NOT YOUR FAULT you're a "nice guy" -- many of us on here are nice guys by virtue of our upbringing and didn't know what we didn't know. Google "NO MORE MR. NICE GUY" and start reading. It makes a lot of sense and knowledge is power!


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

I have avoided conflict. And its a fear of future conflict and vindictiveness that has caused me to hesitate at "exposing", along with the fact that I know this is likely going to be both a one shot opportunity and either a turning point or the final nail in the coffin of any chance of saving my family.

I have been, some would consider excessively over cautious with respect to ensuring I do not expose myself to additional problems by overstating or drawing conclusions that are not supportable by the evidence I have of an innappropriate relationship.

But the one thing I've realized is, not exposing does not ensure a nonvindictive cooperative STBX either.

Conflict is an inherent part of life, and effort spent trying to control and avoid it is wasted time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

P.S. I have started the NMMNG book, it is eye opening.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Sparkles422 (Jun 3, 2011)

toofargone:
When I found out about the EA I requested MC when that was turned down, I started divorce proceedings. I made one last overture and that was rebuffed. Finalized divorce 4 months after DDay.

I kept my dignity and my self respect. Believe me, it was extremely difficult I adored this person but I would never accept my placement in the marriage as the "fallback position" in case the affair did not work out. Is that what you are? Second place.

By the way, we lived in the same house, until it sold. That was for 7 months of seeing him carrying on. It was ridiculous the head games he played (now it is ridiculous then it was painful torment which is what he wanted).

Get that focus on yourself and ask "What do I want?" Hopefully, the answer is healthy. 

Good luck.


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## InFlux (Oct 30, 2011)

toofargone said:


> I have avoided conflict. And its a fear of future conflict and vindictiveness that has caused me to hesitate at "exposing", along with the fact that I know this is likely going to be both a one shot opportunity and either a turning point or the final nail in the coffin of any chance of saving my family.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're not going to "lose" your family. Get that clear. Your kids will ALWAYS be your kids and you will ALWAYS be their father. Nobody can replace you in their lives. Nobody. What you are going to lose, however, is the limbo fog, disrespectful, torturous hell you have found yourself (and your kids) in for the past year. You should take your kids on a week-long or so trip. Just you and the kids. I think you will find, as I did, that it's not bad. That you guys can and do function as a family. That that type of future would be OK.


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

Sparkles422 said:


> I kept my dignity and my self respect.
> 
> I would never accept my placement in the marriage as the "fallback position" in case the affair did not work out.
> 
> ...


Sparkles-
Self focusing is what my spouse is engaging in to the exclusion of everyone else. 

You are right with respect to saying that I am not focusing on myself. 

Because, If I start focusing on myself, who's focus is on our child and what's in their best interest ?

What I want, right now is not possible. And is viewed by my spouse as the opposite of what she wants.

I have communicated clearly that I want the affair to stop, so that we can work on fixing our marriage, for the sake of NOT breaking apart our child's world. 

But she refuses to stop and I realize, ,is confident that she doesn't have too because I've made it clear that I still hold the conviction that "divorce is not an option". 

Her current mindset and actions are NOT typical of my wife(the woman I married).....
her best friend has never "seen" the woman she has become.

If I were to initiate divorce while she is making choices and decisions based on irrational circumstances and behaviors, what does that say about my character? 

Cut anchor and sail away rather than honor the commitment I made and be around to throw out a lifeline to someone you love ?

Helping her destroy our child's family, I want no part of. 

Though she acknowledges the current situation is unhealthy for our child.
She has no desire to stop creating the situation.

This is what I'm struggling with.

She wants a divorce, and she views my lack of agreeing to her desire as "I'm not letting her go". Vs. I will not participte in her selfish disregard for what's best for our child.

I told her I can't stop her from chosing to leave, she chose to cheat, she has chosen to refuse to stop, and she will chose and own the consequences of chosing to destroy our family through divorce.

I guess I'll stop rambling, because I can see how it is whining......chosing to not do anything but wait for her to finish off our marriage.

I think I'll go play with our child, while he's still around all of the time.

Thanks for the input everyone. I asked your opinions and I needed to hear it. 

Like it or not, divorce appears to be the consensus conclusion.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## calif_hope (Feb 25, 2011)

Tofargone.....

It is very likely that your window of opportunity to save your marriage is gone, YOU failed to see what some her were trying to tell you.....the use of aggressively presuing a divoce, liquidating properties, working on separation and custody has cleared the FOG away from many if a wayward spouse.

Your behavior just threw you wife further to Gus arms be being something she couldn't / can't respect - man I am frustrated with you.

An aggressive and manly approach which sir included persuit of divorce on your terms.

No, you just held the door open as she left to f**k the other man and you then welcomed her home and let her walk all over you DOOR MAT.

Man up, fight for YOU and YOUR child - presently you don't have a marriage - yes marriage is a covenant between a husband and a wife with GOD, problem is their is no longer a wife in this trinity can't you see that. 

So declare war on this cake-eater of yours - keep it civil because your linked forever with your child - JUST DON'T BE MR NICE GUY.........don't compromise!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

calif_hope said:


> Man up, fight for YOU and YOUR child - presently you don't have a marriage - yes marriage is a covenant between a husband and a wife with GOD, problem is their is no longer a wife in this trinity can't you see that.
> 
> So declare war on this cake-eater of yours - keep it civil because your linked forever with your child - JUST DON'T BE MR NICE GUY.........don't compromise!
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thanks, Calif. I'm all over the map at this point, wanting to expose, but not wanting to sour future coparenting. I got a little despondent the other night thinking about the holidays.

I know you are right. 
I ordered the book, "A man's guide to a civilized divorce" but its a hard pill to swallow especially around the holidays.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

P.s. 1/2 way through NMMNG.

What a revalation. Had I found this book before, might not be where I'm at right now.

But, before......I didn't see how the way I was was detrimental,

Which explains why "I didn't get it for so long."-

Ignorance has a high price.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Arnold (Oct 25, 2011)

Drink lots of Onion juice. It is a cheap way to increase testosterone, allegedly.


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## calif_hope (Feb 25, 2011)

toofargone said:


> Thanks, Calif. I'm all over the map at this point, wanting to expose, but not wanting to sour future coparenting. I got a little despondent the other night thinking about the holidays.
> 
> I know you are right.
> I ordered the book, "A man's guide to a civilized divorce" but its a hard pill to swallow especially around the holidays.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You didn't get my point as I was not clear - EXPOSE THE B**CH, being civil is not calling her a b**ch to her face.

Exposing is about taking control, controlling the message, who the good guys are and who are the bad guys....this matters, you are going to need character references as will she in you custody case. Joint custody is fine but go after physical custody or primary.

Quit debating - expose, put those books down and expose, get out of your fog and expose.

Can't you get it through your head, the future of your child is at stake, his mental health and how he develops and how he sees love, relationships, etc., you want him to be as healthy and resilient as he can be.......in a very major way you are in a development window for your son that will result on what kind of women ge will marry and what kind of father he will be. 

If you screw this up, your future grandchildren may suffer for it in the continuing cycle / chain of disfunction,

Put those books down, drink some onion juice, and go to battle. 

You know the only book you should be reading right now is Sun Su's "Art of War"!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

> You know the only book you should be reading right now is Sun Su's "Art of War"!



“Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak. ”


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## Sindo (Oct 29, 2011)

calif_hope said:


> You didn't get my point as I was not clear - EXPOSE THE B**CH, being civil is not calling her a b**ch to her face.
> 
> Exposing is about taking control, controlling the message, who the good guys are and who are the bad guys....this matters, you are going to need character references as will she in you custody case. Joint custody is fine but go after physical custody or primary.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree:

You need to start acting now. Don't just read about divorce, take some steps.

Divorce is not the ideal scenario, but it is far healthier for your kid than staying in the marriage you have.

Find a good lawyer and start discussing your options.


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

Quickly discovering that attorneys are like mechanics, you have no idea how good they are, absent a personal recommendation. And consultation fees run from "free" to $1000.00. Ouch.

Spoke with one counsel so far that at least provided an indication that my worst day in court would be 50/50 (48/52 worst case) custody which was some comfort, given I believe my spouse is thinking her "share" would be primary.

I really hate talking and having to think about my child in terms of "shares".
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Shaggy (Jul 17, 2011)

One approach is to talk with divorced people who get run over by their EXs divorce lawyer, and then hire that lawyer.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

"Women's Infidelity" is an excellent e-book.
Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity

It's insightful and clarifying. I think I finally understand
what is going on in my spouses head or at least it provides 
rationale for the seemingly irrational behavior of a cheating spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

Excellent ebook available here: 
Infidelity, Cheating Wives - Women's Infidelity 

Wish I had found this two years ago. But, at that point I was still delusional that my spouse would NEVER cheat on me. (I have always said"never say NEVER in the business world, because you never know what could happen or the resulting impacts). I see now.....how ignorant it was to assume "I'll never have that problem."

And the ebook author uses survey data to support the logic being discussed. 
It summarizes the same conclusion, that I couldn't see from the perspective of a BS.

"People, events, and decisions create changes in our lives, but no single, person, event, or decision makes, breaks or defines our lives."
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

I've seen that site before, but saw that the cost was $47 for the adobe file? That's a little bit pricey.


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## calif_hope (Feb 25, 2011)

Could of, would of, should of! You should be calling around looking for a bull dog lawyer, spending time with your son, getting sone rest. 

Now is not the time to dwell in the past or even start your recovery - you need to get into the survival fight mode and THE ALPHA FATHER / MAN mode - get your head out of the books and off the internet.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## InFlux (Oct 30, 2011)

Langley's book is pretty good for giving us BS an idea what the f$#! is going on in our WW heads. I've read it myself. But, to calif_hope's point, it doesn't much matter now as you aren't going to fix your wife's problem. Only she can do that. And I can guarantee you even if you give her Michelle's book to read (I did) it STILL won't register. They are in outer-space my friend, a freight-train heading off a cliff. The only thing that will register for them is fully experiencing the _ramifications_ of their actions. Even Michelle says this in her book:

*(WW) It sounds as though you’re telling me to go ahead and file 
for divorce now, because that’s what I’m going to wind up doing eventually.*

(Michelle) No, I’m saying that you are already unconsciously deciding to 
divorce. I’m telling you to wake up before it happens, because if 
you don’t you’re in for a whole lot more pain. The path that you are on will lead you to a very predictable place. At some point, possibly very soon, your husband is going to close the door to reconciliation, at which point you will lose your f$#king mind.

*What? That sounds a little extreme!*

I wish I were exaggerating. The severity of your situation will 
come crashing down on you like a ton of bricks and for the first time you will see very clearly how you’ve brought it all upon yourself. Unfortunately, though, it will be too late for you to do anything about it and the pain will be almost too much to bear.
*
I don’t know what you are telling me to do! Please…tell me 
what to do!*

I cannot tell you what to do, but I can remind you how to figure 
it out for yourself. Eventually you’ll see that you have known what to do all along. You’ve just been unwilling to do it.​
You need to force her to own the ramifications of her actions by you taking action and not just talking about it! In a way, you taking decisive action is going to help her because right now she's stuck in that limbo fog and can't get out. Ultimately, what matters now, though, is YOU getting on with YOUR (and your kid's) life. I totally understand your desire, however, for trying to understand her for yourself though; to the extent that it helps YOU move forward more power to you I say. But, yeah, enough navel-gazing already! Man up!


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## Initfortheduration (Dec 12, 2008)

:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

In my opinion, $47.00 is nothing for the information/insight she provides. The conversational tone she narrates with is supremely easy to understand/relate to. It should be required reading for all BS who has wondered WTF is going on and can't see any logical aspects to the behavior(s) both WS and BS they are exhibiting. Ideally, it would be required reading as pre-marital counseling and emphasized as pay attention to this, you have been warned. THAT'S when it would be most effective.

"women in stage three tried to get their husbands to make the decision to separate so they wouldn’t have to." <---this is exactly what I've suspected all along in my circumstances. 


After reading Lagley's book, I could (and did) literally replace our names with the character's names she used in her examples and have a script of our lives in the recent past. It may seem weird, but doing so made it seem as if she was talking directly to me.....really hit home. 

It's Amazing how predictable the behavior of WS and BS appear to be. 

I have another consultation scheduled today....but like I said, it's extremely difficult to know who's giving you a sales pitch telling you what they think you want to hear vs. what you can realistically expect as a result from the circumstances of your case, and in the end not being able to deliver anything near those results and who's worth the $200.00 - $375.00 per hour rates they charge.

I've started asking for referrals from coworkers and believe it or not, it's been a dead end...seems no one I know has any experience with divorce lawyers. 
:-(

It's really scary to think, the outcome of the situation that will literally impact the rest of my and my child's life is going to be handled by a complete stranger based on less than a 1 hr. interview.


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## InFlux (Oct 30, 2011)

toofargone said:


> In my opinion, $47.00 is nothing for the information/insight she provides. The conversational tone she narrates with is supremely easy to understand/relate to. It should be required reading for all BS who has wondered WTF is going on and can't see any logical aspects to the behavior(s) both WS and BS they are exhibiting. Ideally, it would be required reading as pre-marital counseling and emphasized as pay attention to this, you have been warned. THAT'S when it would be most effective.
> 
> "women in stage three tried to get their husbands to make the decision to separate so they wouldn’t have to." <---this is exactly what I've suspected all along in my circumstances.
> 
> ...


Totally agree. I've often wondered going through divorce why it is that getting married isn't as involved as getting un-married. Getting married was no big deal: sign here, done! Getting un-married: uh yeah, no. If the legal process was much more involved getting into marriage I believe it would force people to think 2-3 times what they are getting themselves into. Part of that process should include mandatory reading/couseling such as Michelle's book, etc. which lays down the reality of long-term marriages and what it really takes. But, you know, I wonder if it would matter in the end now that I think about it because if I would have read her book 12 years ago I probably would have blown it off as "whatever. Where do I sign?"


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## toofargone (Nov 10, 2011)

Tonight, spouse asked me, "Do you intend to mediate with me ?" and "Do you intend to get a lawyer ?"

I answered yes, I intend to have counsel.

She asked, "Why ?" 

I said, to protect my rights as well as inform me of them. She literally responded with a question "To protect your rights ?" As if she was surprised at my response and/or she doesn't think I have any rights.

Spouse was not pleased with my response. 
And all she said was, "Well, I don't intend to have a lawyer." and "I intend to 'do this' over the Christmas break when both you and I have time off." And "I don't want this to drag out."

THE ONE THING, I asked her not to do....was pursue this over the holidays and ruin our last holiday season. And she refuses to even do that, then she's "surprised" that I intend to seek counsel ?

It's really hard not to keep my mouth shut.....after thinking about it, I should've said.....Easy for you to not want counsel, you will be dealing with an honest person, you will be dealing with a person who truly has the best interest of our child in focus, rather than a someone who has destroyed their integrity, intentionally become a habitual liar, and self centered / selfish person who's only care is what they want. Yeah, I can see why you are chosing not have a lawyer !

Mediation, in her mind I'm suspecting is going to be "give me what I want" and if you don't you're being unreasonable.

I'm exposing this weekend....I literally have nothing to lose at this point.


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## Geoffrey Marsh (Aug 11, 2011)

toofargone said:


> Tonight, spouse asked me, "Do you intend to mediate with me ?" and "Do you intend to get a lawyer ?"
> 
> I answered yes, I intend to have counsel.
> 
> ...


You are doing all you can...keep up the good fight. Good job on the lawyer....you should never walk into a battle unless you are prepared to win.


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## ing (Mar 26, 2011)

> THE ONE THING, I asked her not to do....was pursue this over the holidays and ruin our last holiday season. And she refuses to even do that, then she's "surprised" that I intend to seek counsel ?



Actually, It is not the ONE THING. It is the FINAL THING. 

The final straw that breaks the camels back. Move it forward. Take the control back


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