# How do I tell my wife she can be 100% open with me again?



## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

I've worked very hard on getting back on track with my wife over the last few months. Our relationship was "ok" but definitely seemed like on autopilot, and I knew there was something missing. The spark was certainly gone, I mean it's been two decades, but something seemed a little more off despite my wife's excellent efforts at always making me feel loved and cared for, even my thick head was feeling something was off.

Insecurity got the best of me and at first I unfortunately did my same old withdrawal and at one point "it's her fault, she isn't meeting my needs" thing for a while. But after a long time trying, a month or so ago I finally "got it" and started reconnecting with her big time. I haven't felt like this since we first met 20 years ago and it has been blowing my mind. She of course noticed and while she is enjoying it she is a bit apprehensive and unsure what to make of it. She keeps saying "just be you, be normal" even though she said she hasn't felt this way since we first met (which about made me cry, why did it take me so long). I'm not behaving like a doormat, I told her we will still have disagreements and irritate each other once in a while, but I am totally connected and in tune with her and absolutely love it and I'm the same person just WAY more thoughtful and connected.

She is slowly coming around, behaving more playfully, in a better mood all around, and initiating sex more often (!), but I still feel a slight barrier. I at first thought the increased sexual desire for me would be the crowning moment, that she is totally on the same page with me, but I was kind of surprised at myself that it wasn't quite it. Feels great and important as hell, yes, but surprisingly to me is not everything. I need her to feel entirely comfortable with me again emotionally too, I didn't quite get just how important that was to me (and of course to her too).

In the past I always did the typical selfish/immature reactions when she brought up a subject I felt negatively or insecure about. I would refuse to talk about it. Or I would get angry and become unreasonable. Or I would get defensive and divert the subject onto something negative about her.

God knows she tried for years despite that. But I finally made the realization recently that this was the last little thing preventing us from both being madly, head over heels in love with each other once again. Her being able to talk to me about absolutely anything without me being an ass about it is way more important than my own insecure or negative feelings. 

I don't know how long it's been since she started holding those things in or probably finding some other outlet for expressing whatever those topics are. Months at least, possibly a couple years. How do I convince her that I finally get it? How do I get her to trust discussing anything and everything with me? 

Do I just say this? She's already overwhelmed by my supercharged attentiveness over the last few weeks and it's taking her some time to adjust to it, is it too soon to put this out there too? Afraid if I keep it to myself, she'll never come back around with it, but if I say it to her point blank she will feel on the spot and turned off. Or that she will deny she's holding anything back (which is probably the most likely scenario - she really seems to be acting like nothing was "bad" or "wrong" so why I am suddenly behaving so differently - even though it's in a good way - so she may not want to discuss how I knew things were off.)

A few days ago I brought up that I still sensed a hesitation or barrier in her, despite the way I've been way more attentive and in tune with her etc., (not realizing at the time but realizing now that it was the topic of this thread that I was sensing). She said she doesn't want me to keep talking about it and being concerned, for me to just be me. That's what's causing my hesitation here. I told her "but I want to be able to communicate my thoughts" with her and not hold it in, and she said yes she agrees. So now I'm confused - which one is it? I know the way she is, she never wants to tell me not to talk to her about something, but at the same time she just did and then contradicted herself when I questioned her about it. So I'm a bit lost on what to do with this.

Any thoughtful insights would be greatly appreciated. Please be gentle you can tell I am naive and somewhat out of touch emotionally for a long time and never have had counseling.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Just be patient, don't force it, it sounds like a good fresh start. keep it light, keep it fun, and don't question anything for the time being, when she's ready she'll share if all is going well. After 20 years its not gonna just click or she might be thinking you'll just fall back into the same rut again, so the barrier comes up to prevent that from happening, you chip away at it a little more, and each time you do the barrier gradually disappears.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Thumper said:


> Just be patient, don't force it, it sounds like a good fresh start. keep it light, keep it fun, and don't question anything for the time being, when she's ready she'll share if all is going well. After 20 years its not gonna just click or she might be thinking you'll just fall back into the same rut again, so the barrier comes up to prevent that from happening, you chip away at it a little more, and each time you do the barrier gradually disappears.


Thanks. Mulling it over, I'm thinking along those same lines. It's just hard, I want to move forward ASAP but I guess this is the situation I've created so I have to be patient whether I like it or not. I still can't help but think I should just throw something out there, like "hey just want you to know you can talk to me about anything and I recognize now that's more important than me getting angry or defensive, I value your point of view, I've learned from my mistakes of the past." Just something to let her know I'm ready, but will give her her own time. 
What do you think? I want her to know I've changed, I'm ready, so that we don't waste any more time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

She will she the changes, what she isn't sure of if its just a temporary fix to get thru the patch, or truly a much needed lifestyle change of confirmation. Show her your support, and sometimes that support is just to LISTEN to what she's saying while holding back comment. She might just need to vent at her own pace, forcing the issues are only going to push them further back inside possibly. I know its tough, cause you want to fix it now, but you have to give her the time to figure it out on her own. Good luck, and be prepared this might take some time. Stay strong, for the both of you.


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## Trying2figureitout (Feb 3, 2011)

You are high with her response... she is not sure its real and doesn't want to send you spiraling back down.

She is telling you to cool it and be yourself. I'd listen to her.
You can't instantly flip a switch and hit go... takes time for her to come around.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

justtryin said:


> Thanks. Mulling it over, I'm thinking along those same lines. It's just hard, I want to move forward ASAP but I guess this is the situation I've created so I have to be patient whether I like it or not. I still can't help but think I should just throw something out there, like "hey just want you to know you can talk to me about anything and I recognize now that's more important than me getting angry or defensive, I value your point of view, I've learned from my mistakes of the past." Just something to let her know I'm ready, but will give her her own time.
> What do you think? I want her to know I've changed, I'm ready, so that we don't waste any more time.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Sorry but this is so incredibly vague it is hard to tell whose issue this is. 

You have not given one clue as to the things that you became insecure about.

There is a whole spectrum of things that this could be. So IF you wwre insecure about things that you should be insecure about and did not assert your boundaries, just deciding to accept them and telling her she can tell you anything and you will be ok with anything is less than helpful.

On the other extreme if you were insecure or creeped about normal things that do not threaten your marriage then we can understand why she would be reluctant to open up.

So at least to me ... context matters. The situation matters.

I can totally understand a couple shutting down from one another and requiring a spouse to take your approach to regain connection. But it seems there are some unresolved issues.

So what exactly were you insecure about?

One thing that encourages communication is to do His Needs Her Needs together. This will help open things up. It also covers boundaries. Sounds like one of the other of you had boundary issues. A couple needs to agree on boundaries and then live them. Also have transparency in a marriage increase intimacy. Not just talking sex here. I mean the whole enchilada. Because intimacy is what you are really looking for.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

First I want to congratulate you for achieving this level of insight into your marriage and your past behavior. I'm not sure what suddenly woke you up to this realization, but thankfully you did. My husband is EXACTLY as you described: 



justtryin said:


> In the past I always did the typical selfish/immature reactions when she brought up a subject I felt negatively or insecure about. I would refuse to talk about it. Or I would get angry and become unreasonable. Or I would get defensive and divert the subject onto something negative about her.


I have tried to talk to him about things that have upset me, hurt my feelings, made me feel devalued, etc. His response has been just as you described...refusal to talk about it, getting defensive, turning it back on me, belittling my feelings, rug sweeping the issues, etc. I have done my best to try to bring this up to him and explain to him how I feel like I can't talk to him about things. I've asked him to go to counseling. We went twice, it was a disaster. Now he's back to burying his head in the sand. And our 19 year marriage is circling the drain. 

I don't know how long this poor communication went on between you and your wife, but if it has gone on for many years, it certainly is going to take quite a while for her to really trust you emotionally. If I were your wife, I'd want you to tell me exactly what I quoted above...truly acknowledge that you have neglected her emotionally and be sincere. Tell her this with absolutely NO "but"s ("I was wrong to talk to you that way, but you have to realize I was stressed..,") No buts. Just acknowledge it and sincerely apologize. Then ask her what she needs you to do so that she feels at ease opening up to you. For example, I told my H that I'd like to feel comfortable talking to him about minor mistakes I make (like "oops I forgot to return the movies on time and now there's a late fee") without him judging me or making me feel like I'm a constant source of disappointment to him (like "geez, I guess I'll have to start taking the movies back from now on since obviously I can't trust you to be responsible"). Honest and sincere acknowledgement of your past communication failings is a great start. Then really listen to her and give it TIME. I know for me, 19 years of being shut down by my H couldn't be "undone" in just a few months. You admittedly violated her emotional trust in the past, and that trust will have to be earned again. But it sounds like you are on the right path. Keep up the good work!


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Thanks Waking up.

While I try to rebuild and regain that trust and remain patient, this subtle wall between us is sapping my ability to remain strong and patient. I'm not sleeping well at all and I'm losing weight (don't really need to), and everything else in my life is taking a back seat. I feel good around her, so she is seeing my confident side. But when I'm alone I break down a lot. 

I've realized that this subtle wall between us is what finally got my attention to turn things around in the first place. But my fear is that it's permanent, she has found a way to live her life safely and is too afraid to take that wall down and try again. I don't want to lose my momentum. How do I keep up the good work while I'm also silently falling apart at the same time. I've made great progress over the last few weeks, but it seems that it has hit a plateau for her and she's just fine now the way things are. 

Am I making sense? I feel she enjoys the way I have come around, but still is not going to break down her wall - she has the best of both worlds. I am a better, more attentive husband, and she still doesn't have to worry about me shutting out her feelings because she has a way to cope with it anyways. Meanwhile that distance is driving me mad. Am I trapped?


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Also - Waking up - for what its worth there were a few things that finally woke me up. Nothing she specifically did intentionally, I wish I could tell you a magic formula for what snapped me out of it but I can't.

It happened over a long period of time, probably a couple of years I've known things were off-kilter but couldn't quite put my finger on it. Didn't seem major enough to totally dedicate myself to it, but I'd occasionally go out of my way to try to fulfill her needs, then think my job was done and go back to business as usual. Then I'd still sense something was off, but she does a wonderful job of making me feel loved and cared for so in retrospect that threw me off. I figured things couldn't be that bad if she was always still trying. At times however I would feel the distance so much that I, as I'm ashamed to now admit, would blame her and tell her she wasn't fulfilling my needs. I was such a moronic ass. I think that pushed her further away, yet she still continued her loving caring ways towards me. 

But I think it just got to the point where I knew she was a different person. She still loved me yes, but she was not the same anymore. I had that realization one day. From there it snowballed - I started wondering why I was having these feelings that she was not the same person anymore. It all crashed down on me. I woke up. For the first couple of days I thought I had lost her, it was too late, oh my god. She was just going through the motions. She was so damn good at caring for my needs that I didn't even see she was gone. But thankfully I regained a tiny spark of optimism and decided I would go down fighting. I would do everything in my power to rekindle our marriage and become the husband she deserved, and create the marriage of both of our dreams. I knew I had to be as subtle as possible and to really try something different.

I started talking to her more, and more importantly really listening to her. Every day. I asked her more information when she trailed off or wasn't forthcoming. I became genuinely interested in everything about her all over again. Our relationship took off like a rocket! That was about a month ago. Now I'm here at this point. Still coming along great in our daily interactions, but I'm feeling this plateau, this obstacle still there.


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## northland (Apr 13, 2012)

You can't "tell her to be that way" it's just gotta happen, over time.

Start with "trust me" falls and take it from there.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Waking up to life - one other thought for you - show him these posts. Maybe you are like my wife, you are a giving caring person and he is so used to thinking that is normal and that if you are giving and caring then everything is fine.

But I guarantee he would crumble if you were gone. His reactions to any unpleasant (but necessary) conversations are like mine, coming from a place of immaturity and insecurity (my wife and I have been together our entire adult lives may be part of why it took me so long). 

He has to understand that, and understand that he will never fulfill your needs if 1) he isn't genuinely interested in you and EVERYTHING that is going on in your life, good or bad, and 2) he isn't communicating with you about EVERYTHING good or bad, in a CONSTRUCTIVE way.

He needs to know he will lose you so slowly and so quietly that by the time he figures it out, you may very well be too far gone. This is the realization I'm having with my wife of 20 years. It is very, very painful to wake up. I look back on my behavior and am absolutely ashamed. She was trying to reach out to me, needing my input, needing me to understand, needing me to just listen. I completely screwed it up. I am fortunate enough that she has such a good heart that she held on as long as she has, that she found a way to just swallow it and get by, still trying to fulfill me. 

And I had the nerve to think the distance she was inadvertently creating, which was really her own survival mechanism to stay with me and continue to try, was her fault and she needed to do a better job fulfilling me.

That is a bitter f-ing pill to swallow. I will spend the rest of my life knowing that I did that to a wonderful beautiful human being who just wanted to make me happy.

Ok I have to stop now. It's still so hard.

Anyways, I already did what you said to do in your advice, just this morning. I told her I do not expect a response from her, I am already overwhelming her and only my actions will prove it to her, not my words, but that she should know I now realize the way I was, similar to what you had quoted me in your post above. 

She didn't respond. It's been a few hours and we texted each other a while ago on some everyday regular thing, so at least I know she didn't check out! She's still hanging in there. I imagine it's sinking in, I don't know if she believes it or not, but I told her I understand it will take time for her to open up about sensitive and difficult things with me and meanwhile I will be waiting for the opportunity to prove I can do it.

I'm really nervous. I'm afraid weeks or months will go by, and she will bring something up, and I will inadvertently fall into old habits and have a bad reaction, completely screwing everything up all over again. I want to start to develop good habits now on difficult conversations with her so I can be ready for really bad ones. Part of why I'm so impatient.

Edit - of course I'm also really nervous because of what I mentioned earlier, that she will feel she now has the best of both worlds so why bother trying to open up again.


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

Justtryin

I see parallels with my story.

As well as HNHN have you examined the Five Love Languages?

Otherwise I think perseverence is the main thing. Keep listening. Show the barriers are down. With time she will probably gain confidence that the change is permanent.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Now that I am fully aware of her emotional wall, it is destroying me. It's been there for a while, at least a year if not two, but I see it clearly now in her every move, every action. I don't think she is even aware of it. When she first noticed my "new" attentive behavior and told me it was unsettling (but nice) she said it made her worry there was something she was doing wrong or not doing right.

I told her of course not, it was my doing, not hers, don't worry. However it did disturb me for a couple reasons. One is because I did notice the change in her, that's what woke me up. But of course that was because of me, not her, so I couldn't make her feel "guilty" for changing when it was my fault and she was just trying to cope. 

The other reason is because I don't think she does know she changed. That's worse than if she changed on purpose. Because then it would be because she was intentionally trying to change my behavior, and when it worked, she could be "normal" again. But this is not the case. It makes me fear I've lost some part of her forever, and I can't stand it. I need the person she was. I can't live my life with the person she is becoming, who I helped create. 

I'm still terribly worried that my wife will keep the wall up, trapping me like I said before because she is now emotionally safe PLUS able to enjoy my new attentiveness. Why should she try to trust opening up to me again, just because I said I know I was wrong and I vow to change? I fear the hurt of that wall will cause me to eventually cave. I will feel sorry for myself, exhausted from the emotional roller coaster, unable to be there for her and withdraw once again, dooming the relationship. 

It's like I need constant markers of progress or else I feel I'm failing. When I don't feel those small victories, days go by without some positive sign from her, I feel the need stronger and stronger to gush my feelings out to her. 

I really haven't been pressuring her, we've had like two conversations about this new behavior of mine in the last month, and the other morning (after a torturous night for me of feeling that wall from her a lot more than normal) I casually asked if everything was ok, I didn't do something wrong did I? She got a bit irritated and said no, but you have to stop asking me and being like this (although I hadn't asked if I had done anything wrong previously...). Something definitely bugged her but no way was she telling me. She said she just needs a little emotional space, she's not used to being the center of attention. I remained confident and said ok, no big deal, I was just checking, just wanted to communicate with her, make sure we were on the same page. She hugged me and said just "be you".

I left it at that. But I don't want to just "be me". "Me" is the a-hole who screwed it up badly and created this problem. Later that morning is when I told her about how I was wrong in the past the way I reacted to her when difficult or sensitive conversations came up, as I mention in Post #11 above.

Nothing has changed since then (ok it's only been a day), although she did seem in a really good mood yesterday. Who knows if that is why, but it made me feel very optimistic. But it's still business as usual.


One other thing I've noticed and was wondering about. Since I've changed my tune lately and have been open to doing things I used to not do with her anymore (go to movie or concert, more involved with running errands etc.), she has made a few comments like "I know those things really stress you out, are you ok with that" or I'll say we haven't done (whatever) in a long time because we didn't like (whatever excuse)... and she'll teasingly say "WE didn't like that? What do you mean WE?"

She said initially when I changed that she didn't want me to "put her on a pedestal" because I may come to resent her - but now with those comments above I'm thinking it is she that resents me! She's either feeling more comfortable making little comments like that because I've changed my behavior, or maybe just because I'm finally coming around to doing those things with her again. 

At any rate it's making me feel like there's a whole can of worms to be opened here with her. I guess that's another reason I want so desperately for her to open up to me again, so I can KNOW what the other problems are so I can work on them. I can't work on problems I'm not aware of! Thoughts?


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## tryingtobebetter (Aug 6, 2012)

You cannot control her behaviour. All you can do is love her. That includes being sensitive to her current emotional state.

Persevere in loving her. Then she may or may not respond. Either way, do it because it is what you want to do.

Good luck.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

You've been treating your wife like furniture for years. She doesn't trust you emotionally. She shouldn't. You've proven to her again and again that your changes of this type are usually temporary. _Of course _she thinks they're temporary now. 

What's more, you want her to "fix" this for you by jumping on your "I'm a changed man" bandwagon like a love-struck groupie who's been asked to head back stage to meet the band. Dude. Calm down, dig deep, find the strength to suck it up and be patient. Your wife's been waiting _for years _to be important to you. Suddenly you've decided she is important, but only she's willing to *instantly* surrender all her well-earned armor to a man who's proven over and over that he's emotionally untrustworthy? The ego of that is _astounding_. 

I recommend IC for you to help you deal with your impatience, and this apparent need to dictate your wife's emotional state. Ask your wife to join you for MC. 

And please stop pressuring your wife for something you've made it nearly impossible for her to give you.


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## doubletrouble (Apr 23, 2013)

Those last two posts said everything I was also thinking. 

This is YOUR change, not hers. Change yourself because you see things within you that you don't like. If she wants to change herself, she will. Stay the course. She needs TIME to learn this renewed part of you. After an indeterminate amount of time (nobody knows how long that is, not even her), she may decide she likes this new environment of your marriage and will start to break down her walls. 

Just don't expect her to change because you did. And learn to be patient. If this change in you is real, you're golden!

I changed a LOT of things in me after our donnybrook a couple years ago. It was difficult to do, despite my inner, personal motivation. I tended to fall back on old habits and patterns. But I stayed the course because I *wanted *to change ME. My wife has slowly come around to believe I am truly the good man she fell in love with those years ago. 

This is partly a trust issue. We know trust is a house of cards. Sneak some glue into your deck, brother.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Ok. I started to rip someone a new a-hole but rethought it and deleted. Knee-jerk reaction. I get what you guys are saying.

I'm still waking up. Still realizing the destruction I inadvertently caused. I really was trying these last couple years, I was just trying in MY language instead of HER language, I couldn't figure it out and I knew it. I made it worse instead of better before I finally got it. I finally did and now I'm an emotional roller-coaster. This is new territory for me, I'm learning. It's scary. I have to let go of my machismo because that is part of what got me into this mess.

I desperately want to be better, forever. The little blows feel huge because I'm so vulnerable right now, a new and unusual feeling. My first stage was excitement, "yay! I figured it out! honey I get it, were going to be great again!" then into "oh sh!t, I really made a bigger mess than I thought, how was I so blind" and now it's "wow, I have a long, long road ahead" and those last two have certainly killed the buzz I had from the first stage.

The good news is she is still showing subtle positive signs overall, and my god do I feel good around her. Like a drug. It's just the in-between where I crash and burn. Writing it out here helps, it's my only emotional outlet. Hence my long rambling posts.

Thank you people.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

I have a question. Things are still slowly improving, which is great. Not as fast as I'd like or the breakthrough I'm looking for but I've discussed that already. Question now is, should I back off a little bit now? Make her crave more of this new attention? Or is that a terrible idea?

What I mean is I will certainly remain attentive, but put the brakes on a little, be a little less available, a little more independent and less "all about her"? She's starting to respond more, positively, so I wonder if I should back it off a little to entice her.

For example we were on a road trip this weekend and I spent most of the time holding her hand on the center console, and caressing her hand and arm (I used to do that years ago). I acted like I was doing it subconsciously, I would have regular conversations with her while doing it, as if I wasn't caressing her, but inside I was doing flips, loving the intimate feeling and hoping she was too.

At first she seemed nonchalant, if I needed to grab the wheel with both hands she would just put her hand back in her lap, and when I put mine back on center console she would not put her hand on mine. I would have to initiate it each time. It kind of bummed me out because I thought it wasn't doing anything for her, as if she didn't care and was simply "allowing" me to do it just to be nice to me. At times I was waiting for the heartbreak moment, waiting for her to say "can you not do that please" or "that's kind of bugging me". Thankfully she never did, but I was a bit anxious about it. 

But last night we drove somewhere and I put my hand on the console, next to hers but not touching her, and she casually slid her hand closer to mine until it was firmly touching mine. I took the cue and went to put my hand on top of hers and she firmly grabbed my hand intertwining her fingers, clearly wanting me to repeat what I had been doing all weekend. She had liked it after all.

That is one example of what seems to be going on - I initially get no response, unsure if anything is sinking in or affecting her or even maybe it's bugging her, but then if I show any sign of backing off just a little bit, she very subtly indicates she wants more.

I most definitely do not want to back off. It will be hard too, I'm so infatuated with her. But I really don't want to screw up, and wonder if this is a better move now that I'm getting signals that I'm reaching her. I don't like playing "head games" like this, I prefer to remain natural and follow my gut, but then again my idea of being "natural" also screwed things up in the first place so I'm not entirely confident in my instincts right now. I keep reading things where people should be independent, show some distance, but not sure that is a good idea in my situation, she might think "ok was just a phase, now he's going back to the way he was". Although I would certainly not back that far off at all.


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

If you are enjoying giving the attention and she is enjoying receiving it, then don't back off, You said progress is being made. Continue with what you are doing. I'm so happy for the both of you that your romance was able to rekindle. Enjoy each other.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Hopefull363 said:


> If you are enjoying giving the attention and she is enjoying receiving it, then don't back off, You said progress is being made. Continue with what you are doing. I'm so happy for the both of you that your romance was able to rekindle. Enjoy each other.


Thanks. Her "armor" or "wall" or whatever is really continuing to freak me out though. 

I looked at the His Needs Her Needs website and...wow. There it is, in black & white. I could have used that info years ago. 

Anyways now I'm eager to do the questionnaire with her, to explore this stuff with her, but I can't. For the first time in our 20 year relationship, she does not want to discuss or explore our relationship. This is a complete 180 from how she used to be. It's one of the red flags that made me wake up. We are connecting better than we have in years and years, but "Us" is off limits. As I mentioned before the couple times I've tried to have a heart-to-heart with her about us, she was not into it and last time said "just give me a little emotional space". She loves the attentiveness and physical attention, but will not get into what is going on in our relationship. That is totally out of character with her, and it tells me I really must have pushed her away even further than I thought, without realizing it.

Probably worth mentioning that I think the real turning point was about 6 months ago. I was feeling the distance between us, trying to figure out what was wrong and "fix it", wasn't working, got frustrated and depressed. At this same time a family member was going through a divorce and mentioned to me he found out his wife had cheated on him with people he worked with. My wife used to work at the same place 10 years ago. This made me recall back then when my wife and I were not connecting (my fault, she was trying, I was too self-absorbed) and the distance got to a point where I was suspicious of her. I never told her, but now these thoughts came flooding back. So 6 months ago it was tearing me up, I was desperate to break through the distance I was feeling, and I told her I had always suspected she may have cheated back then. I had no real evidence then or now, just paranoid gut feelings. Then and now it was probably the distance I was feeling making me think something was up.

She was very, very hurt and angry. She completely denied anything had ever happened and was offended I ever thought those things and held it in for 10 years. She told me she had always done her best to make me never doubt her love for me and me alone (which was true). I knew right away I screwed up and should have never said it. I eventually told her I was sorry, I was just confused and frustrated, don't know what got into me.

I think that was the straw that broke the camel's back. She mentioned during one of our talks a couple weeks ago "just don't pull that crap you did 6 months ago again" so I know it's still very fresh on her mind. I think that's a big part of why she doesn't want to discuss "us". She's very comfortable discussing anything else on her mind, including things that are bugging her, but since "we" are off limits it makes me feel very uneasy, like she's hiding something. No evidence that she is, it just gives me that feeling. 

Reading the HNHN stuff, the "Openness/Honesty" need is in my top 3, so the current lack of 100% transparency in our relationship is really, really getting to me.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Trust is built through experience. You could talk until you're blue in the face but nothing will ever be as convincing as your actions. You don't tell her she can trust you, especially after she's had a couple decades of evidence to the contrary. You have to prove she can trust you and that will take time.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Ive been reading this chain since the beginning. It is possible she's dealing with the guilt of something she did in the past. I can totally understand your feeling the way you do about a possible infidelity, it can happen to anyone. BUT if you have no proof you need to DROP IT NOW!!! your driving a wedge between you and your mind, as well as you and her. 

You have to remember your in the drivers seat, but this is a car that has 2 steering wheels. Control only what YOU can control, if the rest falls into place great, don't do/say something your gonna regret as it can cause it ALL to fall apart with no chance at recovery.

You need to ramp up being patient. Remember theres nothing you can do that can win her back in right now, but theres a TON of things that you can do that will push her away forever.

It sounds like theres plenty of effort by both parties, but its happening at different speeds. BE HAPPY YOUR IN THE GAME. If it tooks years for your marriage to crumble to what it was, its gonna take years for it to fully recover.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

and it really does surprise me, even though we've been a little disconnected and I've responded so poorly in the past, just how drastic her non-reaction is. Like I say, I either REALLY made a mess over time, or something else is going on. 

For the record, I used to abuse alcohol. I was way, way worse in the first 10 years of our marriage than the last 10 years. I've come a long ways these last few years I've been sober. This is why I'm still surprised how she's not coming around. She tried and tried and tried and never seemed to give up even when I was an alcoholic and sometimes behaved terribly, she always wanted to fix us and get us on the same page. Even after I sobered up she was always willing to try, although she didn't have to try as hard because me sobering up really improved everything a lot. So for this 180 lately, I'm at a loss. Again I keep thinking it must have been something I said or did that finally pushed her over the edge, and the only thing I can come up with is my accusation 6 months ago. 

I recently found an email I sent to her 2 years ago where I was telling her I was trying to reconnect with her, I knew I wasn't doing something right (but of course I was also telling her what she wasn't doing to fulfill my needs, I still had a lot to learn) and she responded very favorably, saying she agrees, she'll try harder too, she loves me more than anything, etc. etc. So I know she was still her old self 2 years ago, and nothing groundbreaking has happened since then, so why this new attitude? I keep blaming myself but I didn't change over the last 2 years, I figure she finally just gave up, but maybe it was my accusation?


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

My point is that you will NEVER know now after this long, or at least you will never get the answer you want. Unless she comes to you and admits something (NEVER gonna happen - unless you have proof) 

DONT EVER BRING IT UP AGAIN. don't ask her brother/friends/grandma/family/yourself. A good tool to help you with that is by, if it did happen, would you forgiver her for it anyways cause your happy she's back in your life and the mistakes both of you made that got you in trouble in the first place. I know its hard, but the final answer is either you forgive her or not.

If your happy getting the 2nd chance, to make things right, then move on already and make the most of this chance. Your last post is RIPE with accusations in your mind. Just think how much of that you are carrying with you knowing/unknownly. You asked, she answered, forget it now. And keep on working to rekindle your marriage, it sounds like its working, just need to keep it slow.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Ok I posted that above before seeing your response. I couldn't forgive her but I wouldn't leave her, I would still want us to restart but I would have to know what happened to do that. I almost feel I could live with knowing it happened but can't live with this doubt.

Are the signs there? Am I misinterpreting?


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

depending on your frame of mind, things will ALWAYS be there. 
The mind can be a very powerful enemy sometimes, omg she went to get gas in the car and was gone 45 minutes, is she cheating on me??? Don't fall into the trap.

LET IT GO, your beating yourself up. You got NOTHING. Your trying to justify why this isn't happening fast enough maybe?
Your old marriage is dead anyways, that version of your wife has been gone for a while too. The person you with now is a new person your building a new love with. If you let that love mature and its own pace, your marriage will be 10x stronger for it. When you first met your wife you didn't fall in love and get married after 2-3 months, don't expect it to happen this fast either.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

No, there is NOTHING you can do except make things worse. 

I can argue that she's acting this way because although things are great right now, she's waiting for you to become the OLD you again. See how that works, don't let your mind take over.

If you don't start being more positive with your thoughts, you are gonna really regret these thoughts when she leaves you FOREVER.

Don't think backwards, think forwards!!!


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

I'm glad you settled down a bit about this...reading your posts, the suspicion was thick enough to cut with a knife. "What if I said this____? What if she really didn't go to her grandmas? She made corn on the cob for dinner - that's a SURE sign she cheated!"

Ok, that last one was a stretch, but that's how paranoid you were sounding. Look, you put her through hell being an alcoholic and being emotionally distant for YEARS. She busted her ass to keep your marriage together, while you refused to acknowledge her emotional needs. But she stuck with you...and now you've decided that's all in the past and she should just somehow magically forget the crap she put up with from you? You can't decide that for her. And to top it off, you have the audacity to accuse her of cheating based on some vague memories you have, trying to tie the way she laughed at a movie to a sign she was cheating? That's how you show your appreciation of her putting up with your crap for 10+ years? Yes, if I were her, I'd be pissed too. 

It's almost funny to go back no read the title of your thread. "How do I tell my wife she can be 100% open with me again?" Um...NOT by accusing her of cheating and by obsessing over it. There's a start. 

I'm sounding harsh, I realize...that's because you have a gift of having insight into your behavior and your marital dynamics. Not everyone has that level of insight. I applaud you for it, but use it WISELY. Have some insight in more positive ways towards your wife. Don't overanalyze every little thing. Stop thinking so hard and just love your wife. She'll feel that if it's genuine.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Thanks guys. I know it's irritating but I deleted those messages of my little fit. I was a bit ashamed after seeing them today. I got over it last night after I took some time to really look back objectively. I don't know what came over me, like Thumper said my mind just drives a wedge and gets consumed sometimes lately, all these emotions come exploding up. I realized what I was doing and everything finally melted away.

Anyways, I was emotionally exhausted last night and came very, very close to cracking. I was putting on a good face but after the kids went to bed I really started to withdraw to the point where I knew she would ask if something was wrong if she saw me, so I distracted myself with chores. I was totally over my fit I had here, but I desperately was needing physical intimacy and knew she had a busy day was worn out and not feeling up for it. That is my weakest moment, when I really need love and know it's not going to happen. I was prepared to tell her I was impatient and really wanting her to open all the way up with me, I'm ready when she is, please let me try.

Fortunately I came up with a lifesaver plan at the last second, thanks to a poster (named Kingsfan) on another thread on these boards. Realizing my sexual needs are of course also tied up in all this stuff, I figured even if she wasn't in the mood or feeling well, I could still ask her to take care of me with her hand. She knows my needs can be strong and that I'm male, and I had the confidence thanks to Kingsfan to simply ask her and not take no for an answer.

Once again, such simple things like this you think I would have figured out over 20 years. I'm such a dope. Of course she said yes, although I could tell she was kind of like "ok, this is new". The best part is that after a couple minutes, she said "there's only one problem when I do this". Fear struck my mind, I thought she was going to say it hurt her wrist or her hand would get tired. Instead she said "it makes me want you inside me". Nice!

This is a tactic I will employ from now on. If she isn't in the mood, we can still do that, and that will help me tremendously with my issues. Like I said it's usually when I'm not getting that physical intimacy, particularly sexual, that I am at my worst. Finding this simple little solution will definitely help.

Although this is a good solution, there are still problems in the bedroom though. I mentioned in another thread some of this, how she seemed to be more experimental and it was getting hotter last summer when she was reading those 50 shades books. It tapered off a bit 6 months ago, and that tapering off was related to me falling apart a little and ending up accusing her as I mentioned earlier. Problem now is even though she has been initiating a little more these last few weeks, it's almost exclusively the same old same old, the hotter stuff we had been exploring has taken a back seat. I'm not complaining for now, but I fear it's gone, it was just a phase. I guess time will tell, as sensitive as everything is right now I'm definitely not comfortable bringing it up at this point.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Waking up to life said:


> I'm glad you settled down a bit about this...reading your posts, the suspicion was thick enough to cut with a knife. "What if I said this____? What if she really didn't go to her grandmas? She made corn on the cob for dinner - that's a SURE sign she cheated!"
> 
> Ok, that last one was a stretch, but that's how paranoid you were sounding. Look, you put her through hell being an alcoholic and being emotionally distant for YEARS. She busted her ass to keep your marriage together, while you refused to acknowledge her emotional needs. But she stuck with you...and now you've decided that's all in the past and she should just somehow magically forget the crap she put up with from you? You can't decide that for her. And to top it off, you have the audacity to accuse her of cheating based on some vague memories you have, trying to tie the way she laughed at a movie to a sign she was cheating? That's how you show your appreciation of her putting up with your crap for 10+ years? Yes, if I were her, I'd be pissed too.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the slap back to reality - I deserved a slap.

I do want to defend myself a little bit though, in regard to my emotional distance. I always tried to connect with her, and sometimes did here and there. I would go through weeks long or occasional couple months long periods where I was totally self absorbed and stressed with work or whatever, but I always call her every day, talk to her every morning and evening, we spend virtually all of our free time together. I have slowly improved over the years. I just wasn't there as much as I should have been, and sometimes didn't show her enough attention. But I was never completely gone, I was always willing to try. I was just clueless and didn't recognize just how important these things were, especially to her. 

We also haven't had many major fights in the last several years, especially since I quit drinking. I only remember once in the last 5 years where we argued badly enough to where she cried. As I mentioned, I found an email I sent 2 years ago where we were discussing trying to meet each others needs, we were both understanding of each other and open with each other, willing to work together. It just kind of faded away, life got in the way again, business as usual. Yes in the distant past I was terrible and immature, but as I say she still didn't have that wall up as recently as a couple years ago

That's why I'm so concerned that over the last 6 months to year she has built such a barrier, one that I'm convinced she doesn't even realize is there. Other than my accusation, I can't pinpoint anything else that went wrong or changed. I'm fairly certain it was there before my accusation, so that isn't entirely it. I guess our sex life changed, slightly, like I said last summer when she was reading those books. But I don't see how that would eventually cause her to become distant.

And she is really responding to my super attentiveness, still making good progress in every other area, but she's still just holding back when it comes to "us". I really think she's bottling it up, and it wrecks me. It's the "mr. fix-it" in me, I want to help her, I want to tell her she's bottling it up and doesn't know how it's affecting her, I get it now I'm not going to "forget" and regress to my old self because my old self simply didn't have the enlightenment that I do now. I'm not going to un-learn these amazing things that I have over the last month.

Getting back to my earlier post from yesterday, I really want to explore our relationship using the His Needs Her Needs stuff. Is it still too soon for that? Will it be putting too much pressure on her? I know she is still a bit wary of my behavior, she's getting more used to it but it's like she's afraid to bring it up because she thinks I'm fragile and it will burst my bubble, sending me back down. It won't, it's what I need actually, but how do I convince her of that.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

your trying to hard in my opinion, you CANT fix her, trust me, read every book out there. The thing you have to understand is that your wife has probably been falling OUT of love with you for a year, maybe 2. She's doing a little self discovery right now of whether she CAN love you again. A lot of women want that new love, romance feel again, its your job to rekindle those feelings. Not the we've been married, I know you, you know me feelings. 

Make her feel desired, not wanted, make her feel sexy, not married, make her feel like its different, not the same old thing. If you don't win her heart back, the mind will never follow. She will always love you, but that doesn't mean she's always IN LOVE with you, its your job throughout a marriage to mix it up, so it never gets into that rut.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Thumper said:


> your trying to hard in my opinion, you CANT fix her, trust me, read every book out there. The thing you have to understand is that your wife has probably been falling OUT of love with you for a year, maybe 2. She's doing a little self discovery right now of whether she CAN love you again. A lot of women want that new love, romance feel again, its your job to rekindle those feelings. Not the we've been married, I know you, you know me feelings.
> 
> Make her feel desired, not wanted, make her feel sexy, not married, make her feel like its different, not the same old thing. If you don't win her heart back, the mind will never follow. She will always love you, but that doesn't mean she's always IN LOVE with you, its your job throughout a marriage to mix it up, so it never gets into that rut.


Thumper you nearly made me cry, I feel like bawling right now. Because I fear you're right.

I'm scared. I want to ask her if she is/was falling out of love me, what did I do, what can I do. I don't want to be the person she is falling out of love with. I'm not convinced the person I am right now is enough, or doing the right thing. My stomach is absolutely turning right now.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

She would deny it, I know her well enough that she would never even admit to herself she was falling out of love with me.

But the signs were/are there. It makes sense. I just don't know what to do. I know I am trying too hard right now. How can I not? I'm scared to death. I'm desperately trying to figure out what she wants in me (or doesn't want in me), I have a couple of ideas, but don't know if it's enough (doesn't seem enough). How do I find out, if I can't ask her?

It goes against every grain in my nature to not do something, or to just wait and hope it works out.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

I know she is still leery of why I've changed recently. She enjoys it but is suspicious of what's going on. I think I mentioned this before. Initially she even asked if there was something she was doing wrong, I said of course not.

But I feel so compelled to tell her, and to insist that she did absolutely nothing wrong, it was directly due to me and I realized that and this is why I woke up, I want to explore this with her so badly. I just feel it would set her mind at ease to know why I changed and that I am so willing to work with her, that I will put everything into it. 

We have always told each other everything, all of our insecurities and issues, which is why her behavior has been so foreign to me and why I'm struggling so much to hold it in. I don't feel our relationship ever was "normal" in this way. It's also why I'm having a hard time with the advice to just be patient and wait it out, it's totally out of our 20 year relationship character. We tell each other when stuff is bothering us, particularly ourselves. Yes, I was bad many times in my response to her, a long time ago. I've been better in past few years. Not great, but better. I have to do something. I'm tempted to do counseling but I think that would REALLY freak her out, whether it was just me or both of us. I'd be better off telling her this stuff first, then using counseling if it didn't work out well.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

Well, first of all, your being way to hard on yourself!!! The issues are a 2 way street, neither of you have handled them well. Second, your marriage is NOT over, so stop treating it like one day is gonna make it all better.........yes SLOW DOWN. She's giving you the chance, what more do you want? make the most of this, many here at TAM will tell you that second chances don't grow on trees.

What I would do? i'd stay positive, i'd back off the pressure, i'd give her some time here and there, let her miss you a little. I'd plan little things to do that maybe in the past you didn't want to do. TAKE HER DANCING/dinner. don't talk about the relationship, GO for a drive, ask her how her day was. give her a foot message. go for a walk around the neighborhood. DO NOT ASK HER QUESTIONS ABOUT YOUR MARRIAGE, YOU WILL ONLY PUSH HER AWAY. You don't need to do something everyday thou, give her a break every other day at least. Find a few things you can do to get out of the house so she has some time to think/breathe. Go for a run, go to the gym, go to the library, you need some time away maybe even more than she does right now cause your PUSHING it. Relax

If you have a lot of anxiety and you don't know what to do. Get some vitamin B5, its a natural stress reliever, take 1000 micrograms a day. If your having trouble sleeping and don't want to take a narcotic prescribed drug, get some melatonin from the health store while there. and once again RELAX


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Thumper said:


> Well, first of all, your being way to hard on yourself!!! The issues are a 2 way street, neither of you have handled them well. Second, your marriage is NOT over, so stop treating it like one day is gonna make it all better.........yes SLOW DOWN. She's giving you the chance, what more do you want? make the most of this, many here at TAM will tell you that second chances don't grow on trees.
> 
> What I would do? i'd stay positive, i'd back off the pressure, i'd give her some time here and there, let her miss you a little. I'd plan little things to do that maybe in the past you didn't want to do. TAKE HER DANCING/dinner. don't talk about the relationship, GO for a drive, ask her how her day was. give her a foot message. go for a walk around the neighborhood. DO NOT ASK HER QUESTIONS ABOUT YOUR MARRIAGE, YOU WILL ONLY PUSH HER AWAY. You don't need to do something everyday thou, give her a break every other day at least. Find a few things you can do to get out of the house so she has some time to think/breathe. Go for a run, go to the gym, go to the library, you need some time away maybe even more than she does right now cause your PUSHING it. Relax
> 
> If you have a lot of anxiety and you don't know what to do. Get some vitamin B5, its a natural stress reliever, take 1000 milligrams a day. If your having trouble sleeping and don't want to take a narcotic prescribed drug, get some melatonin from the health store while there. and once again RELAX


Thank you once again. Those are excellent ideas and I'm already doing nearly all of them. Big one is I need to back off a little bit. So hard but I see the point.

I'm starting to realize maybe she isn't opening up all the way because there isn't anything to say. If she was falling out, especially if she didn't even realize it consciously, what is there to say?

I think I know some of the things that did it, and I have been working on it. I think me sharing my stress and anxiety from work with her was turning her off, too much displaying lack of self confidence on my part. I'm just so afraid now of slipping back, or that there are other things that turned her off that I'm missing. I guess there is nothing that can be done about that but it's driving me crazy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Thumper, it's crystal clear now, you've identified exactly the issue.

Here's my dilemma. I am who I am. I can try to change some things about myself, in some ways, but in the end I am me. She is not responding enthusiastically at all, just small little gestures that she hadn't done in a while. So if she isn't excited by my new behavior, which is a lot like the way I used to be, how can I expect her to fall back in love?

I believe now that it isn't patience, that she will suddenly get more and more excited and fall in love with me again. It's not there. She's in a "good enough" marriage is what I think, and just mildly amused and curious about my drastic change. There is no spark for her. This is what has been bugging me. I should see some sign of effort from her, some twinkle. Not there.

I'm so tempted to blow the lid off and suggest counseling. When she lied to me about our finances so long ago, and I had a foot out the door, she begged me to do counseling, and I did. Now the shoe is on the other foot. I need to know this can work. It's distracting me to the point that it may begin interfering with my ability to make a living. My biggest fear with counseling is that it's all in - its all out there and it will either work or it will fail. No messing around, very disruptive.

Am I jumping the gun here? I just still don't entirely buy the patience thing. I'm not seeing enough results on her part. More like " ok this is nice, anyways back to life". Of course she's been responding positively, I know a lot of the right buttons to push on her. But there is something deep that is missing. There is a deep down emotion, response, hint, whatever, that is just not there. It's why I had suspicions of infidelity, even though zero evidence. She's checked out. But she's too insecure and too stubborn to ever actually bail, so she's going through the motions. She's been going through the motions for quite a while. But I think she emotionally bailed. I've known her for 20 years, since she was not even an adult. Something is wrong; something is gone.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Last thought for the night. I really scoured my memory, trying to think of any sign of a spark of interest on her behalf. I remembered one tiny little thing she said, during one of our two brief talks since my "change".

She said "every day I can't wait to hear your voice when you call (I call her almost every day from work for the last decade or so, just to touch base). She said on the rare occasion I get too swamped at work to call, she misses my call terribly. She also said she listens for my car to come home, in anticipation. But, she said, she knows she just doesn't show it well once I'm home. 

Not bad, right? But then I remembered something else. I looked back at that email from 2 years ago, where she was still herself and both of us working it out together - and she had said those exact same things. Almost verbatim. In the email she also said to me "just thinking about it wants me to be in your arms".

So it occurred to me... She wasn't loving me, she wasn't missing me - she was missing her FANTASY of me. Then when the "real" me showed up, the feelings went away. That's why she had a hard time expressing her love and care for me in person. Even back then.

I am going to sleep on this stuff, maybe give it a day or few.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

First of all, blow the lid off by suggesting counseling? Theres nothing wrong with some counseling, for you, for her and then some more for both. I highly recommend it, especially if you do it right and find a good match. Don't go for the sake of going, make sure its a therapist you connect with, that doesn't talk over your head, one that you feel you can open up too.

Lastly, She's not OUT of love of you, every, EVERY woman goes thru these cycles, it sounds like you addressed it before she was DONE with you, like many of the TAM posters spouses. She's still there, and that's a HUGE thing you have to realize. You need to have both in your life, fantasy-a lil mystery, and "real" - longer term, stable thoughts of love to keep you grounded. Sounds really positive to me. 

I think you have some insecurity issues, some control issues, and definetly some self confidence issues that a individual therapist can help you with. I hope you consider going for yourself, and maybe at a later date both of you.


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## KanDo (Jun 15, 2011)

Jesus man! Get a hold of yourself! You go from madly, deeply in love to being concerned about infidelity, to getting a little sex when she wasn't even interested to complaining that she isn't tying you up and licking chocolate off your member. You're wanting her to feel safe with you and then you talk about rushing into counseling. You are going to crash and burn. 

*STOP IT!*
Don't suggest any books, any counseling, any complaints about the bedroom for at least three months. Show her a consistant loving husband who isn't so needy and clingy that it turns her off, but is there for her consistently. If she suggest any of those things, fine. Otherwise, just knock it off.


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

You sound a bit unbalanced. I can't get a handle on what you did or didn't do. You also sound like your analysing of your wife's every word, thought and email is bordering on the obsessive.

If you want her to feel safe, be a safe person. Be normal and balanced and reasonable. For a year. At least. See what happens. 

Why are you so terrified of the idea she's not in love with you right now? All long marriages go through that. You know what doesn't help? Impatience and hassling and trying to force things.

I hurt my husband badly, he didn't feel emotionally safe with him. It took at least a year of me showing - not telling - him he could trust me to love him without needing a lot of reciprocation. Things are great now, but it took time.

You need to calm down, love her where she is and wait.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

As Lyris said, you need to be a safe person if you want your wife to feel safe loving you. Right now, you do not come across as safe. You seem volatile, unpredictable, controlling, obsessive and a little manic. None of those things will fee emotionally safe to a woman. And for sure, none of them will do anything to increase either emotional intimacy or a desire for physical intimacy for the vast majority of women. 

In fact your writing does have more than a little whiff of mania about it. You said you used to drink a lot. Was that drinking a form of self-medication for some untreated condition - OCD, ADHD, bi-polar?

My earlier advice - no matter how much it p!ssed you off - stands: IC for you and invite your wife to join you for MC.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Doesn't matter now. She busted me this morning.

I was my usual "new" self last night, good mood, confident, etc. with exception that I gave her a little more space than I had been. Not much different, just slightly more space. As I was falling asleep (trying anyways, my head was still reeling) while she was still awake watching tv in bed, she actually put her hand on my back and shoulder and started caressing me. I was in heaven. Something so little, so simple, that she used to always do, I had missed so much and couldn't remember the last time.

I woke up today even earlier than usual. It all came back to me, my fear and anguish that she had/was falling out of love with me. I tried to focus on getting ready for the day, thought I was being my usual self but maybe a little distant, but she must have picked something up. She came up behind me and put her arms around me and rested her head against me - again something she used to do and hadn't in forever, I missed it so much. She turned me around and said what's wrong.

I honestly tried my best to hold it together - I wasn't ready to do this. I told her I didn't sleep well and my stomach was bothering me (both true). She said what's really bothering me. I started to crumble. I told her don't worry, we don't need to do this now, it's my own issues I'll be ok. She insisted. I said no, let me give you your emotional space, you don't need this, I'll work through my own stuff on my own. She said I'm your wife, you are supposed to tell me everything, especially if something is bothering you. I still tried, I said I just need MY own emotional space right now. She slumped and said "what did I do". I realized I had to break, I definitely could not let her think that way.

I told her my fear. She said absolutely no way. She said she knows she's been really stressed and things have changed in our lives a lot over the last couple years (kids are all busy in sports/school now, we moved to a new house last fall, kids are in new schools, etc.) and that is why I was probably feeling distance. She said I read too much into things and fear only the negative and make something that isn't there. She said she's always been in love with me and could never not be, I am her world.

I asked her why she hadn't been responding much lately to my changes. She said she wanted to, she just wasn't sure what I was up to or going through. I told her I like the "new" me (which is true), it makes me feel like I used to but without the drinking, and she smiled and visibly relaxed. She liked new me too. She said she's just got a lot of stress built up in her and it makes her come off as armored, that's just how she deals with it. I told her she wasn't always that way, she used to talk to me more and blow off that steam, she said it's different now with the kids and everything she feels like she has to keep herself together for their sake, she does not want to be vulnerable she wants/needs to feel strong for them so she can be a good mother. I told her I am her man, I am here for her, I often fell down in the past on that but I know now and she needs to let it out to me, I actually want that, I didn't get it in the past but now I do and want to be that for her. She said she would make more of an effort to show me how she feels, but I said I don't want her to make effort or see me as another need she has to take care of. I just want her to know I'm here and I'm madly in love with her.

The conversation seemed to end well, we had both shed some tears and kissed and hugged, she told me she loved me more than ever and to get that in to my head.

She also called me at work already today, to talk about some everyday thing, and seemed in a good mood.

I feel a huge weight off my shoulders, I can finally concentrate again for the first time in weeks. I'm still a little nervous though, time will tell how she really reacts, if she comes around or if she starts to drift further. I guess I'm relieved she told me she is my wife and loves me and I have to tell her anything that is bothering me, she knows when something is bothering me better than I do and I can't hold it in.

I suppose if I don't post back here anytime soon we can assume things are ok. What a freaking roller coaster. She did also say when we first started talking this morning that maybe I should see a counselor about my anxiety, she says these "signs" I saw of her falling out of love with me are totally blown out of proportion and I'm not seeing the reality. I'm skeptical, but I suppose if she is so convinced that she didn't fall out of love with me, I have to accept that for now and see where it goes.


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## Thumper (Mar 23, 2013)

I agree get yourself some therapy now.

And congrats on a real break through. Work with it.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Reading the last few posts from y'all -

Yes, I was self medicating with the alcohol those years ago due to insecurity and anxiety. Don't overblow it though. I sound a bit "unstable" on this board because I have been typing out my thoughts as I feel them. It has been helping me work through this, similar to writing in a diary or journal or even talking to a close friend. So of course it sounds volatile. Meanwhile I am functioning in my daily life as I always have. Like one poster said, I'm extremely insightful/analytical and I can really get in my head and dig around and know how to express it by writing it all out - it's something I've done for years, usually just in a journal though.

I almost feel I went too far though by reading things here. Some stuff helped, some I think made it worse. In the end I know myself and I know my wife, I second guess myself A LOT (insecurity) but sometimes you just go with your gut. Sometimes it's a disaster (me accusing her) and sometimes it calms things down and makes it better (our conversation this morning - hopefully).

Regardless, thank you all for taking the time to offer insight (Rowan yes you pissed me off but only because you had a strong point! I appreciated it after I let it sink in) and to read all my crazy turmoil. I think next time though I will stick to a journal, I opened myself up to be judged here and I'm not sure I needed that. I can paint any picture of myself or my relationship I want simply by choosing what I want to share and what I don't. I tried to be detailed in order to paint the most accurate picture, but clearly that's not possible. Nobody's fault. It's like cops, when they only see the bad side in people day after day it distorts their view of the world. We can only share so much detail here, and if it's biased or colored the wrong way due to the writers current mood or state of mind then of course it seems worse than perhaps it really is.


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## Waking up to life (Nov 29, 2012)

It sounds like that conversation was exactly what you needed. Your wife sounds like a very loving person. A few points I'm going to pull out, because of something you said at the end...



justtryin said:


> She said I read too much into things and fear only the negative and make something that isn't there. She said she's always been in love with me and could never not be, I am her world.





justtryin said:


> She liked new me too.





justtryin said:


> she told me she loved me more than ever and to get that in to my head.





justtryin said:


> she told me she is my wife and loves me and I have to tell her anything that is bothering me


After all of those affirmations of her love, you then say...



justtryin said:


> I'm still a little nervous though, time will tell how she really reacts, if she comes around or if she starts to drift further.


WTF? What more do you want? Do you not trust your wife? Do you not believe her when she says she loves you and would never leave you? Do you not respect her enough to believe that she's in this with you, not against you? 



justtryin said:


> She did also say when we first started talking this morning that maybe I should see a counselor about my anxiety, she says these "signs" I saw of her falling out of love with me are totally blown out of proportion and I'm not seeing the reality. I'm skeptical, but I suppose if she is so convinced that she didn't fall out of love with me, I have to accept that for now and see where it goes.


What you are saying here is that you are skeptical of her ability to truly know how she feels about you...as though she had to "convince herself" she still loves you. The only one who needs any convincing is you, but for some reason you choose to invalidate her feelings by being skeptical and nervous that she won't be able to keep this up for the long haul. 

If you love your wife and respect her input and her feelings, you should heed her advice to get counseling for your anxiety (insecurity). You wife loves you, dude! Be happy! Accept it! Go to IC a few times and see if you can figure out why you think you don't deserve her love.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Ok, I spewed out all my negative and troubled emotions so I feel I owe an update on a more positive note.

Things have improved significantly over the past week. Still a ways to go, but major progress in all areas! 

You guys were right. Patience, confidence, and keep my mouth shut about our relationship and my troubled feelings about it.

It did help for me to "spill the beans" last week, but only because she (wisely) addressed her concern with me in the morning when our time was very limited. I didn't have the chance to express everything or even most things, just enough for her to hear that I thought she wasn't in love with me anymore. She of course thought I was being ridiculous, and I told her there were at least a dozen red flags that she wasn't even aware of and that's what concerned me. She brushed it off, and I think she was just relieved that she finally had a satisfactory answer for why I had been behaving the way I was. She had obviously still been skeptical. Since it had been over a month and I was still going strong, and she could tell by my reaction that I genuinely was concerned that she was falling out of love with me, I think that finally settled her mind quite a bit.

The fact that she didn't even ask or want to know what these "red flags" were does tell me however just how in denial she is/was. She doesn't want to know, I think, because it would force her to face the possibility that I was right. She loves being married and is very traditional so I know she would never want to admit to herself that she was falling out, until it was so late it was obvious. Thankfully I woke up before then. 

I've finally come to realize it would be a huge mistake for me to tell her or convince her anyways. You guys were trying to steer me towards this realization and I think I get it now. This is my hurt, my pain, my responsibility and the last thing she needs is me piling that on her. It's my nature to logically analyze things and understand them, and I have a tendency to share that with others. I wanted to explain to her why I am feeling the way I do and why I have changed. But the reality is she doesn't want to know why, she just needs to know it's real, through my actions. She was keeping it from herself subconsciously for a reason, she was trying to avoid the hurt and the pain. She does not need me forcing it to the surface simply so I can try to rationalize my changed behavior to her.

The turning point for me came a few nights ago. She was making dinner and I was doing some laundry. We were both in a good mood, and she had her music on in the kitchen. I heard a song come on while I was in the laundry room and could only hear bits and pieces of it, one of her songs I had never heard before. But a couple of lyrics I heard struck me. I made a mental note to find out the song and listen to it fully. I wondered how she felt about the song, if it struck a chord with her. As the song was ending, she suddenly came into the laundry room and gently grabbed me, held me, kissed me, looked into my eyes and said I was her everything and she loved me more than anything, then put her arms around me. I was reeling. After dinner I was looking something up on the computer and remembered the song, looked it up, and then looked up the lyrics. Luckily she was not in the room, and I would never admit this to anyone I know, but I burst out crying after I read the lyrics. 

I completely broke down and lost it. I knew right then that I could never tell her about this terrible emotional process I've been going through, this roller coaster, never tell her about the red flags I saw, never tell her about the hell I had put myself through over these last several weeks. She'd already been there herself, thanks to me. I imagined the times I was emotionally checked out, too stuck in my own head to be there completely for her, or the times I was out late drinking, or otherwise not making her the priority in my life that she deserved to be. And her listening to that song, wondering what happened, what happened to me, what happened to us. It makes me want to cry just writing this. I am not a cryer, but good lord these last few weeks. Anyways the song was "Wrong Again" by Martina Mcbride. That song came out right around the time we were having the roughest time we've ever had in our marriage. I imagined her sitting there alone listening to that song all those years ago and it absolutely shatters my heart. I was the man of her dreams, I saved her, I was her rock, the only one she could count on, made her feel safe, and I ****ing ruined it over time. I will spend the rest of my life making damn sure she never feels that way ever again.


PS - Waking Up To Life - I just read your last post after I wrote this. You're right, I'm having a hard time feeling I deserve her love because I'm hung up on how I blew it so many times in the relationship. I know it takes two to tango, she shares some responsibility too and we were both very young and had our own individual baggage when we met so that caused extra difficulties. But I look back on how she has always been the one to never give up, to try to get through to me, when I was the one who at times would withdraw into alcohol or depression rather than being there for her. I knew she would always try, she would not give up, so I subconsciously took her for granted while I self-destructed. I hate to say that but I can't explain it any other way. I totally understand why she built the armor that she did over the years, it was a natural response, it is all so clear to me now I hate myself for not figuring it out before. But I am immensely grateful I figured it out before it was too late. It was a damn close call, the biggest reality check I've ever had in my life. I have never been as emotionally volatile as this, not even close. Probably the closest was when I first fell in love with her, and that was a way more pleasant experience. This is the hardest thing I've dealt with in my life. I truly thought I had lost her.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

Guys I've had a new revelation.

I've been reading up on the Married Man's Sex Life Primer.

Bingo!

This is the very issue I was addressing with my wife 2 years ago, which is when I've pinpointed things really began to go downhill for me until my breakthrough/meltdown recently. I am fortunate that my wife is understanding and accommodating enough that she will have sex with me a couple/few times a week even though she's not in the mood very often (she could go a couple weeks without I believe). But she has always acknowledged her desire is not like mine and she just chalks it up to being female.

But when she changed for a while in the bedroom after reading those 50 shades books, it really hit home to me that she does have it in her - I just don't bring it out. That made me very depressed, and in part led me to my meltdown and eventually the process I've been going through. I even asked her about those books the other day, I told her I noticed the change (she acknowledged it too) back then and what it was about them that did it for her. She couldn't give a straight answer - which is very rare. She kind of rambled and had no point. I tried to help her and said "was it what they were doing" she said no, she's not into bondage and spanking etc. (which is true, been there done that she not into it). What it boils down to is she liked that the guy knew what to do and did it. He took charge, took control. He was alpha and beta. She loves my beta traits so much she could never admit even to herself that she needs some alpha too. But it is clear to me that she does.

This is now the second part of this process. At first when I rekindled our connection a couple months ago, I was pouring on the beta traits, but also exhibiting a little bit of alpha behavior in my bid to get her attention. It was generating a response in her in the bedroom. But then as I progressed through my issues I became more and more "beta" and nearly abandoned all alpha traits again. Which she loves and very much enjoys, but we started slipping again in the bedroom. It makes sense now. 

I responded by being more straightforward and taking charge in the bedroom, and it is working a little bit. At least now she is saying "even though I'm not in the mood, you always eventually get me there" and giving me the green light to do what I need to do regardless of if she is in the mood or not. That's good, it's a start. But what's missing is also outside the bedroom. I need to continue my ultra beta behaviors but also sprinkle in more alpha. I am convinced this is the last missing element of her "desire" for me - both sexually and non-sexually. I had become totally beta over the last few years and I know it affected her. My stress, my withdrawal, my taking a backseat in almost everything. She doesn't realize the effect it had on her in the bedroom and otherwise but it makes total sense to me now. The distance I was feeling from her, the subconscious loss of respect for me (she would deny all day but there were clearly some disrespectful behaviors she was exhibiting - and I totally do not blame her).

I even tried it out last night and this morning (not a jerk at all but very firm, more decisive and take charge attitude) and amazingly it generated results almost immediately! Small, little results, but she actually lit up last night and was more physically affectionate this morning. She started to seem a little confused/lost just before I left the house, I could tell a little concerned about me, so I went to her and poured on some "beta" behavior just as I was leaving and she about melted. 
I think this stuff is the real deal. I could have used this 2 years ago for sure. 

But I am still glad I went through the process I did because I needed to acknowledge and take responsibility for my behavior of the past, as painful as it was. It forced me to fully reconnect with my wife which was necessary for both of us. Now I need to become the captain again, because my co-pilot needs some recharging.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

So I'm confused.

Things are still progressing very well. My anxiety and emotions are way more under control and I feel our relationship is very strong, my wife has assured me verbally and through her actions that she is very much in love with me and things are fine. However I still feel a little uneasy at times because I'm still not getting my emotional needs met as much as I'd like. I admit I'm being a little unreasonable because it's like she will make me feel on top of the world one day, but if a couple days pass and she isn't continuously showing me that same level of affection I start getting a little antsy again. But eventually she does, if even a little bit. 

I don't feel I'm seeking much, just small gestures go a long way with me. Coming up to me and looking in my eyes and telling me she loves me, or giving me a hug and resting her head on me, telling me how much I mean to her and how much she loves me, just little random physical gestures like that are huge for me. I need that daily, a couple or few times a day. It's usually me initiating though, I prefer it was her. If I don't do it and wait for her to, days can go by. I also like to give her several soft kisses, and she loves it, but always stops me and smiles and says "don't do that, this is not the time or place". But it never seems to be the time or place, unless we are about to make love.
My problem is I haven't flat out told her exactly these things I need to feel wonderful because I'm afraid it will then make those gestures feel forced instead of natural. I know she would try because she wants me to feel good, but admiration and desire is earned, not forced. So I try to maintain my calm and confidence, and some healthy distance and interaction with other people, and that does seem to work sometimes, but not often enough and it drains my energy.

My wife tells me I need to talk to her about everything, my emotions/feelings and what's on my mind. She is a very loving person and wants to help me through this. She is uncomfortable with it because she thought everything was "fine" before but wants to get past it and assures me I have to tell her everything that is bothering me to do that. Our communications are very good now, with the exception of what I am currently holding back.

But advice I see and hear is "don't talk about problems in the relationship no matter what". But then I see other advice that says we need to communicate our wants and needs with each other to move forward. So which is it, tell or don't tell?

Part of my fear too is that through all my changes recently she often says she feels like she was doing something wrong and not doing a good enough job showing she loved me and that's what made me flip out. I so far have told her no it was ME not her because I don't want her to feel any guilt or blame at all. And my behavior did need to change. But when I really reflect about it, it all did start because my needs were NOT being met. I was not feeling that special affection from her anymore and felt I was not a priority anymore, that's what initially made me feel she was falling out of love with me. 

And as for her, she said everything was "fine" for her but I don't think she's really being honest with herself on that because since I've become more attentive and in tune with her, her mood has improved significantly all the way around, even in interactions with our kids. So obviously my behavioral change had a positive affect on her, there WAS something missing she may not have even realized it. It's like some of the needs she used to have that she wasn't getting, she adapted and moved on, and the fallout is that she wasn't entirely meeting mine anymore either.
So like I say, I'm conflicted. Lately I've been wanting to share with her the fact that my needs were not being met and the reason for that I believe was because I wasn't fully meeting her needs, and we need to both understand our different needs to make sure we both meet each others. 

But I keep putting that conversation off because 1) she just wants to move on and get back to "normal", although she is willing to talk when I push the issue, and I keep wondering if I'm better off keeping my mouth shut and struggling through; and 2) I have been making progress so I'm a little afraid to rock the boat, but I'm not sure if the progress is because I HAVE been spilling my guts and talking with her about my issues here and there like she says she wants me to, or because I've been displaying more confident behavior and seeming (on the outside) to be getting past this.

I will note a couple weeks ago I was trying something different, displaying too confident behavior, a ****iness, which at first felt good to me and I thought she liked even though she said she didn't I felt an undertone of her liking it (alpha behavior), but turns out she did not at all and ended up getting really upset about it. So I broke down and told her my insecurities and feelings of inadequacy. She basically said I had nothing to worry about and said to really think about it, everything was fine, relax, she loves me more than ever and has no complaints. So we both seemed to feel better after that. But again my conflicted feelings. It seemed to do us both good by me spilling the beans, but then again how is that going to cause her to admire me and desire me? She said she respects when I am emotional over her, it tells her just how strongly I care about her. But she also says I have to stop feeling so insecure and needy. Which I've done a better job at lately. She did say she knows how I feel because she went through a very insecure and needy phase with me many years ago (I remember and boy do I now miss it!)

So how the hell do I tell her how to meet my needs without sounding needy or making her feel she was doing something wrong? Or do I not tell her, because it will rock the boat and make it seem forced? There seems to be two opposite schools of thought on it so how do I know which one is right?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

btw - it may be relevant to state that unlike many people on this site, my marriage was not "sexless" and my wife wasn't complaining about me. That could be why a lot of the advice I was reading on these forums did not work or apply to my marriage and was throwing me off and upsetting me. We almost never go less than once a week, nor does it often get more than 3 times a week, averages 2 times a week occasionally 3. Which is fine. For a very long time I did not think it was fine, I wanted minimum every other day, and most importantly I wanted her to initiate most of the time - not me always desiring her. I thought something was wrong because she wasn't constantly jumping on me, and why is it me always badgering her. Turns out what was wrong was more me than her.

I recognize now that was because I was trying to fill the void of non-sexual intimacy. I felt something was missing but kept thinking it was strictly the bedroom, because let's face it I'm a dude that's the first place our mind tends to go. And my caring wife tried her best, despite my constant badgering of her about my sexual neediness and my lack of paying enough attention to her outside the bedroom. So while our sexual relationship had continued, intimacy in most other forms began to fade. Which made me get more anxious about sex, until I ended up basically having a mental breakdown and ending up here.

Oddly enough my sex drive has settled down a bit as I've been more tuned in to her and I've been getting that non-sexual intimacy back from her. I am shocked that I'm now perfectly satisfied with 3 times a week, and me still doing most (but not all) of the initiating, but I'm still aching for more intimacy outside the bedroom. It's like I traded some of my sexual craving for non-sexual intimacy craving. Weird?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

I think, in a long-term relationship, there comes a point where you need to accept the other person as they are. 

Maybe your wife isn't a touchy-feely type, and she is never going to be spontaneously affectionate. You can push and push and be discontented and look for problems but none of that is going to make her into someone she's not. And you do sound needy and insecure, frankly, which is not attractive in anyone.

You're looking for your wife to solve your problems and make you feel secure. That's not her job. If you can't find a way to feel better on your own, therapy might help.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

I appreciate the feedback, but will disagree for the following reasons.

Yes lately I have been more insecure and needy, but that has not been the case for the vast majority of our 20 year relationship. In fact most of the marriage SHE was insecure and needy, primarily the first 3/4. The reason I became insecure and needy lately was because I could feel the disconnect between us and when I "woke up" to it, it scared the living hell out of me. One of those "you don't know what you've got until it's gone" moments which thankfully happened before she was gone. And like I said, I've been dialing that stuff way back, I think I've had one moment in the last two weeks, lasted for a few minutes and I caught myself and told her it was just a little panic attack and I'm over it.

Secondly, you are right that she isn't strongly a touchy-feely type, but for most of our marriage there were little things she would do that were touchy-feely that had become very rare over the last year or two. Same goes for her expressing her needs to me, there were certain things that once in a while she used to say she wanted more of, and I would try (admittedly not hard enough in retrospect) but she stopped asking. And when I started doing more of those things lately that she used to say she wanted, she was somewhat nonchalant about it, which also scared me.

But as I have been patient and continuing being a more thoughtful and attentive person, things have been improving a lot. In fact I think I'm even losing perspective on how "bad" things had been getting because now things don't seem like they were so bad. And she continuously reassures me that they weren't and that everything was "fine" (even though I've seen a tremendous improvement in her attitude). The little "touchy-feely" things have reappeared, although still few and far between for my taste, but certainly better than before.

My biggest dilemma at this point is do I communicate the whole "my needs, your needs" with her. She told me a while back when I first started changing my behavior that she was uncomfortable with me "putting her on a pedestal" even though she loved the attention and felt better than she had in years, because she feared she would not be able to show me the same level of affection and I would get resentful and it would blow up. She wasn't saying it because she didn't feel the love for me, she meant she was afraid she wouldn't show me "properly". This was an issue in our distant past, I bent too much to her will in the early years and I ended up snapping and rebelling, telling her I do everything for her and she doesn't do enough for me. It was probably the lowest point of our marriage, very rough, obviously she is still scarred by it. Of course we were both very young and immature then and I also had a drinking problem which did not help at all. 

Anyways so I want to tell her what my needs/desires are so that I don't end up frustrated again and I want to make sure I am completely fulfilling all her needs too. But I also don't want to sound selfish and have her think "oh all this attention and turnaround was so you could tell me your needs" or conversely make her feel bad that she wasn't fulfilling my needs, verifying her fears, and end up pushing her away again. I'm just afraid to rock the boat since progress is still happening. I try by giving hints such as "I love when we were holding each other on the couch the other night" and "it makes me feel good when you randomly come up and put your arms around me" etc. But I don't get the sense that hinting is clear enough about just how important those things are. And I just know if I ask her how I can better fulfill her needs, she will say "you already do, don't worry" or "I don't know". I'm sure with my increased sensitivity lately that even if she did know or had something to say that was missing, she'd be afraid to tell me because she wouldn't want to hurt my feelings. That's what a beautiful person she is, but it doesn't help when I need straightforward honesty! 

Like I said I'm conflicted, I feel we either need to have a very straightforward conversation about it (risk rocking the boat) or else I just need to keep my mouth shut and wait and hope it just happens naturally over time (and risk eventually getting frustrated).

I mentioned in my earlier post that some advice did not seem to apply to my situation, but some advice did apply very well so I welcome any further thoughts from anyone one way or the other.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Lyris (Mar 29, 2012)

Well, you could try doing one of those quizzes together. I've heard good things about the "His Needs, Her Needs" one. It sounds prescriptive and artificial to me, but it seems to work for some people.


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## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

First of all, congrats on doing so well. This is an awesome thread that is, despite your doubts and inner struggles, very positive overall. I am loathe to rock the boat with too much advice. I don't think you need it, anyway. I have a handful of quick points.

1. I suggest not unloading your fears on your wife unless you have some answers or a good plan to go with them. I find that women do not feel comfortable with husbands who talk about their fears like they have no idea what the future will hold. So, sure, be open with your negative feelings when you need to be, but keep the overall direction positive. 

2. I think MMSL has a few flaws. I think it often works in spite of them, but I don't believe in the caveman hypotheses. The things that work mostly work because they show confidence, which is incredibly attractive to women. But true confidence is a calm assurance, not posturing. Many women can't tell the difference--at least not right away--so men can still get good results with puffed up swaggering, but it's a clumsy approach. I have had the opportunity to hang around many men who were world leaders in their fields. Nearly all of them were friendly and humble. They didn't ever display the kind of posturing I saw on the MMSL site. Yet, they had women falling over each other to be in their presence. 

I believe that the caveman, butt-slapping, come-here-wench behavior on MMSL works because it shows a kind of confidence and not because women get tingles harking back to their days gathering tubers in animal skins.

Some of the ideas of "alpha" behavior are conter productive. "Anger is alpha" being a key one. Again, this only works at all when it shows confidence. Otherwise, you are just letting yourself be emotionally manipulated by someone, or at the very least, not showing you have your emotional crap together.

3. Why would she fall for you again and be openly loving? That is one of your repeated fears. There is actually a very easy answer: it feels good to love someone back. Give it time. You are doing well.


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## justtryin (Apr 22, 2013)

MSP said:


> First of all, congrats on doing so well. This is an awesome thread that is, despite your doubts and inner struggles, very positive overall. I am loathe to rock the boat with too much advice. I don't think you need it, anyway. I have a handful of quick points.
> 
> 1. I suggest not unloading your fears on your wife unless you have some answers or a good plan to go with them. I find that women do not feel comfortable with husbands who talk about their fears like they have no idea what the future will hold. So, sure, be open with your negative feelings when you need to be, but keep the overall direction positive.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I was starting to feel like a pariah here! I really blew my mind open here in this thread and have been feeling uneasy about it. Emotions are hard, no wonder I've been avoiding them for so long!

Excellent points. I really like your take on mmsl and agree. It really upset me initially and I mis-handled it. I found what you've said to be true and glad you validated it.

Thanks again for the encouragement.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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