# Wife's close friend is toxic



## weathermakernj

My wife's friend is toxic to my marriage. Many years ago, my wife's close friend's husband told her that cheated on her, and that he thought he might have given' her an STD, and yet they yet they stayed together for the sake of their 4 kids. 

Well recently he worked late (till 9pm) on her birthday and she hasn't been happy about that. So now, she seems to want to retaliate by going to a bar / club, etc. etc. And, by doing so she's in need of a "wing-man" which would be my wife. 

Recently I caught my wife in a HUGE lie about meeting her at a bar for diner after work, and now I'm the bad guy b/c I'm now considered obsessive or controlling. If you ask me her friend hates her marriage and is jealous that I'm a good husband and father; when it comes down to it. So she's trying to pull her into her bull**** marriage. 

Lately my wife seems to want to jump through hoops for this women, and it's making want to find a barf bag. Her friend is addicted to Facebook, and always trying to be match maker at her job, She's not my favorite person. The fact that she had my wife lie to me about meeting her and I caught on to it really quick. Pisses me off. 
We are suppose to have a annual event with both our family and her family. I'm thinking of sitting it out or if I attend to be very "flat" around her. I don't like her toxic opinions, and my wife is drinking the punch. So stuck.... please help.


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## Theseus

weathermakernj said:


> Recently I caught my wife in a HUGE lie about meeting her at a bar for diner after work, and now I'm the bad guy b/c I'm now considered obsessive or controlling.


Why would that be a "huge" lie? In fact, why would your wife need to lie at all about meeting her friend for dinner unless you really were obsessive or controlling?

I understand you not wanting your wife to act as a "wing man", but do you really know this friend is out for a revenge affair, or is that just your assumption? Your wife should be able to have dinner with her friend without you freaking out about it. 

I say all this because this is one of those letters that I think would sound very different if we heard her side of the story. Communicate your concerns to your wife, but don't make wild assumptions unless you are 100% positive that they are true.


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## ReformedHubby

I'm not exactly sure what is toxic about this scenario. Dinner at a bar isn't exactly something that you should fear. I have dinner and sit at the bar with a friend and its no big deal. Its not really the same thing as hanging out at a club or lounge late at night. 

My only issue is the lie. Did she outright lie to your face or did she just not tell you because she didn't think it wasn't that big of a deal. There is a huge difference.

Her friend is addicted to Facebook and plays match maker at work. What does this have to do with your wife? Also, its not exactly a bad of a thing to do. I play matchmaker for recently divorced dudes all the time. I just want to see them happy again. Is that a crime?

I rarely side with the toxic friend on these posts but unless you left something out you're over reacting here.


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## spunkycat08

More information please. 

Cannot make a determination regarding whether or not your wife's friend is toxic based on what you posted.

Would also like to hear from the wife.

I am the type of person who needs *all* sides of the story before making a determination.


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## Unique Username

I'm older than you guys probably lol

But I completely understand where OP is coming from.

I'd be seeing if your wife is unhappy with you. If she feels neglected or is unsatisfied...she can easily be enveloped in the let's get a divorce together baloney. Find out and fix it. If your wife is happy and your marriage solid - your simply asking that she not constantly go out with this "friend" should be easy to do.

What is your wife getting from this woman. As in how is this woman being your wife's friend? I see what the "friend" is getting
Misery loves company.
She (the "friend") apparently has plenty of single people from work and FB she could use as a "wing man."

And no reason to lie about going out to supper with a friend UNLESS there is something to hide. Those who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.

As for the party with both families. Either you all don't go or you all go. I would certainly NOT sit it out.


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## MattMatt

ReformedHubby said:


> I'm not exactly sure what is toxic about this scenario. * Dinner at a bar isn't exactly something that you should fear.* I have dinner and sit at the bar with a friend and its no big deal. Its not really the same thing as hanging out at a club or lounge late at night.
> 
> My only issue is the lie. Did she outright lie to your face or did she just not tell you because she didn't think it wasn't that big of a deal. There is a huge difference.
> 
> Her friend is addicted to Facebook and plays match maker at work. What does this have to do with your wife? Also, its not exactly a bad of a thing to do. I play matchmaker for recently divorced dudes all the time. I just want to see them happy again. Is that a crime?
> 
> I rarely side with the toxic friend on these posts but unless you left something out you're over reacting here.


That's true. However when one of the partners in a marriage chooses to start to lie to their spouse, then that *is* something that should be feared. And addressed.


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## weathermakernj

I think she lied b/c lately I have been a little safe guarded. I think it's b/c I can catch or feel the vibe that her friend is presenting, and I'm not too fond of it. My wife and I enjoy one another a lot (19+ years) but I just wish she would express her stresses about our marriage or me to me directly and not to someone who is in a failed marriage. The fact that her husband cheated on her and it's out in the open is a bad sign all around. To me the two of them (weather they're working it out or not) are just a marital time bomb. ? I just don't want my wife to go down with the ship b/c misery love company.


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## Unique Username

Maybe introduce your wife to the Housewives of whatever city you find interesting TV show on Bravo

Then she can get her Drama fix - from afar


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## weathermakernj

haha. Those shows are the worst. At the end of the day, I just want to maintain a healthy marriage without any sideline opinions or influence. When others are not happy they tend to wanna bring someone down with them.


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## Unique Username

weathermakernj said:


> haha. Those shows are the worst. At the end of the day, I just want to maintain a healthy marriage without any sideline opinions or influence. When others are not happy they tend to wanna bring someone down with them.


Yes, that's what I said a few posts ago.

Ultimately - you need to see if she is unhappy with you and why and FIX it. Then perhaps she will have no interest in hanging with a loser "friend"

Being honest with her about your feelings is the smartest thing you can do. You aren't trying to limit her having interests outside of home or you - but you wish she would choose a better caliber of person. Aren't there other happily married ladies she could hang-out with?


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## Caribbean Man

Unique Username said:


> What is your wife getting from this woman. As in how is this woman being your wife's friend? I see what the "friend" is getting
> *Misery loves company*.
> She (the "friend") apparently has plenty of single people from work and FB she could use as a "wing man."


:iagree:
Couldn't have said it^^^ better myself!


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## ChelseaBlue

ReformedHubby said:


> I'm not exactly sure what is toxic about this scenario. Dinner at a bar isn't exactly something that you should fear. I have dinner and sit at the bar with a friend and its no big deal. Its not really the same thing as hanging out at a club or lounge late at night.
> 
> ...


I agree that dinner at a bar with a friend is not necessarily toxic.

The red flag is raised when the OP states that the friend wants to retaliate by going to a bar/club and needs a "wing man". I can see wanting to dine with a friend or dinner companion, but using the words *wing man*, and *retaliation * put a different spin on the situation,


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## weathermakernj

My true "hang up" is that her friend is in a failed marriage of infidelity so I don't want her to influence my wife about how bad marriage can be or is. I think our marriage is good, and I feel that her friend may be jealous that I'm more in "tune" to one another and our children; where her friend's husband isn't always there or involved. I love my wife but I don't love the fact that she is getting "coached" about our marriage; especially from someone who is in a train wreck marriage.


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## Unique Username

weathermakernj said:


> My true "hang up" is that her friend is in a failed marriage of infidelity so I don't want her to influence my wife about how bad marriage can be or is. I think our marriage is good, and I feel that her friend may be jealous that I'm more in "tune" to one another and our children; where her friend's husband isn't always there or involved. I love my wife but I don't love the fact that she is getting "coached" about our marriage; especially from someone who is in a train wreck marriage.


Understood! But you are telling the wrong people.

You need to tell this to your wife. 

AND just because YOU think everything is hunky dory doesn't mean SHE thinks it is....else why is she interested in spending time with a woman who is married and acting single?

Good luck to you.


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## Anon Pink

weathermakernj said:


> My true "hang up" is that her friend is in a failed marriage of infidelity so I don't want her to influence my wife about how bad marriage can be or is. I *think our marriage is good, a*nd I feel that her friend may be jealous that I'm more in "tune" to one another and our children; where her friend's husband isn't always there or involved. I love my wife but I don't love the fact that she is getting "coached" about our marriage; especially from someone who is in a train wreck marriage.


The important info you are missing is..

What does your wife think?


Sheeshe! Are women that stupid, in your opinion, that an otherwise happily married wife is going to be talked into having an affair?

You are barking up the wrong tree dude. Detoxify your wife by being a great lover, husband and friend. And when your wife goes out she will see the sad state of hookups for what they really are and go home to a loving husband!


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## weathermakernj

Thank you. Currently we are scheduled to see a councilor; until than things are "ok." I just want to clear the field on what is troublesome. Overall, our marriage is not in the toilet, I just want to nip any "lies" or nonsense that comes along with it. After being together for almost 20 years things tend to get displaced.


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## This is me

I had a sister of mine confide in me that she nearly divorce many years ago from the influence of a toxic friend. She shared this with me when my wife was clearly being led down the Divorce path by a toxin.

My wife works with an older sister who never married and confesses she never will. She has been through many relationships in our 20 year marriage. This affected my wife about 3 years ago, where my SIL influence my wife who was struggling with a MLC to the point we almost D. 

They can make the grass seem greener, which can pull the weak minded, especially those going through a MLC into damaging a marriage. 

Pointing out the Toxic person is like trying to convince a a cult member that their leader is a bad influence. Hopefully they will come to their senses before the damage can not be repaired.


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## weathermakernj

I understand where you're coming from. What did you do to "defrag" your wife's situation. I feel that if I make any slight negative comment about her toxic friend; I'm as good as dirt.


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## 6301

If it was me, I would in a decent but serious manner let your wife know that if she lies to you again then she's going to be the one ripping a hole in your marriage. Tell her that your not obsessive or controlling but lying to you only makes the matter worse and let her know that if you did the same thing to her, she would be calling you on the carpet for doing the same thing. 

Just keep an eye open and see where it goes. If you have a good marriage, your wife isn't going to do anything to cause a rift. You said it's a good marriage. If she lies again, then you may have a problem and you swing the hammer.


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## MattMatt

Unique Username said:


> Yes, that's what I said a few posts ago.
> 
> Ultimately - you need to see if she is unhappy with you and why and FIX it. Then perhaps she will have no interest in hanging with a loser "friend"
> 
> Being honest with her about your feelings is the smartest thing you can do. You aren't trying to limit her having interests outside of home or you - but you wish she would choose a better caliber of person. Aren't there other happily married ladies she could hang-out with?


The problem with toxic friends, male or female, is that they can transmit dissatisfaction and misery which daft friends can tune into and take on for themselves and convince themselves that their life is just the same. Even if it isn't.


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## SunnyT

SOMETIMES.... a perfectly good wife has a friend who is behaving badly. Or just going thru questioning times. Being the friend that she is, wife may just hang with that friend to support her in her life. We tell friend that her choices are stupid....but we don't unfriend them. We don't cheat on our husband just because our friend is stupid. 

IF wife said friend is going through some crappy stuff....and I don't agree with it, and we talk about stuff... and she didn't lie about going out to dinner that time.... would that be ok? 

The problem is the lie. Period. The lie screwed up your trust. Understandable. So confront wife for lieing... the friend didn't MAKE her lie. IF she owns up to the lie.... and promises to be more open, especially when it comes to friend, would that be alright????


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## Anon Pink

MattMatt said:


> The problem with toxic friends, male or female, is that they can transmit dissatisfaction and misery which daft friends can tune into and take on for themselves and convince themselves that their life is just the same. Even if it isn't.


That is so far from reality!

It's just like when parents complain their perfect little angle is just hanging with the wrong friends...it's not our child, it's his friends! Yet they never ask why their perfect little angel is attracted to such friends in the first place.

If you go the route of controlling and doubting you are making things worse. Work on your side of the fence and make sure she is blessedly happy with you before she walks out the door!


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## Anon Pink

Why would a wife need to lie to go out with her friend? To avoid the over the top doubting from a husband? To avoid the hassle of 10,000 questions and negative comments?

Why would your wife feel the need to lie?


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## ReformedHubby

I must be missing something. Nothing about the friend seems toxic. Toxic friends don't invite you to engage in family activities. Toxic friends isolate your spouse. So is the fact that her husband had an affair make her toxic? Sounds to me that if she stayed she values marriage more than you think she does.

I guess I've just read many more threads on TAM describing people who are a lot more toxic than what you're describing.


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## Cubby

I'm not sure we have all the information. Was going out with the friend a one time thing? Or do they go out to bars often or does the friend want your wife out with her on a regular basis? How do you know the friend intended to 'retaliate?' If your wife knew that the reason her friend was going out was to get even by cheating, then she's wrong for going with her and of course also for lying to you. If you wife wants to continue to go out with this woman regularly to singles bars then of course you have a right to object. Don't worry about that 'terrifying' controlling word. There's nothing wrong with standing up and protecting your marriage from negative influences.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## anonim

Anon Pink said:


> Why would a wife need to lie to go out with her friend? To avoid the over the top doubting from a husband? To avoid the hassle of 10,000 questions and negative comments?
> 
> Why would your wife feel the need to lie?


Theres no such thing as 'a need to lie'


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## Cubby

Anon Pink said:


> Why would a wife need to lie to go out with her friend? To avoid the over the top doubting from a husband? To avoid the hassle of 10,000 questions and negative comments?
> 
> Why would your wife feel the need to lie?


Yeah, it just has to be the husband's fault that she lied to him. Damn those controlling husbands!!! Always getting in the way of single-girl fun at the bar!!!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Anon Pink

Okay, poor word choice. The sentiment remains the same, why would a wife WISH to avoid the truth?

According to OP, she went out once with her friend but didn't tell him the truth. He labeled the friend toxic for extremely flimsy reasons, which begs consideration that he may be a tad over reactive in other scenarios as well...which in turn points to him maybe jumping to conclusions that may not be accurate... In other words controlling! And since his wife had already labeled him as such, well perhaps the shoe fits, Cinderella?


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## This is me

weathermakernj said:


> I understand where you're coming from. What did you do to "defrag" your wife's situation. I feel that if I make any slight negative comment about her toxic friend; I'm as good as dirt.


Since she was in the mental illness called a Mid Life Crisis it took being very careful not to add fuel to the fire. Fortunately she was willing to do MC which was still not very productive, but bought us time till she came to her senses.

She walked out the door for four months which gave her a taste of the not so greener side, which also helped. This required a ton of patience from me.


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## the guy

weathermakernj said:


> I understand where you're coming from. What did you do to "defrag" your wife's situation. I feel that if I make any slight negative comment about her toxic friend; I'm as good as dirt.


When I was going thru this crap it was never about my old lady or her toxic friend....as self centered as it was it was about me and what I had control over.

So my old lady was well aware that i wasn;t going to control her but I was going to take control of what i was going to tolorate and i had my choice just like Mrs. the-guy ahd her choices.

My choice was not to be a doormat and with that I diserved good things and good poeple that respected me.

The way I see it is if this friend of your wifes is meeting her need then why can't you guys finish this marriage so you can find someone that will met your needs?

Sure this is over the top but in the end your old lady has to see your confident enough to be on your own...see chick like confident guys...smile wish you wife the best let her know that she is always loved, but she has to except the protection you offer for the marriage and the family unit, other wise whats the point in protecting someone you love when they don't want the protect you offer?

In the end bro you can't nice your way out of this. Commanding respect is not for nice guys!


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## Caribbean Man

anonim said:


> Theres no such thing as 'a need to lie'


:iagree:
Lol,
I was waiting to see how long someone, anyone would have taken to pick up on this.
She chose to LIE. 
Her fault,
Her responsibility,
Full stop.


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## Caribbean Man

Funny how the shoe never seem to fit right when it's on our own feet.

My wife once had this friend who I considered as toxic. She lived in our neighbourhood and was a serial cheater, over the top flirt. 
He husband worked overseas for eight months of the ear.
Rumour had it that she slept with a at least two of the neighbourhood's husbands.
Of course she was the " life of the party." Always full of 
" relationship advice" and stories to tell.
I told my wife I didn't like her, my wife though I was overreacting and insisted that the stories were rumours.
Then she started coming across to our home to hang out with my wife. She started making jokes and throwing little sexual innuendoes to me. I never responded , because I knew exactly what she was doing , and I didn't like her. I warned my wife again. Again she thought I was overreacting.
Then one evening we were all at another neighbour's house hanging out, joking and so on, when she , probably a bit drunk, jokingly made a comment to my wife implying that she could give me a better f*ck than my wife could.

My wife finally got the message...


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## the guy

Anon Pink said:


> Okay, poor word choice. The sentiment remains the same, why would a wife WISH to avoid the truth?
> 
> According to OP, she went out once with her friend but didn't tell him the truth. He labeled the friend toxic for extremely flimsy reasons, which begs consideration that he may be a tad over reactive in other scenarios as well...which in turn points to him maybe jumping to conclusions that may not be accurate... In other words controlling! And since his wife had already labeled him as such, well perhaps the shoe fits, Cinderella?


Someone better take control cuz his old lady can't see that she is losing control.

I'm taking this a face value and his old lady is on a slipery slope and I think the toxic friend issue needs to be address no matter how flimsy it may seem.

Hey OP are you phucking over reacting or are you worried about the train wreck that always comes when guys stop taking control and stop protecting their family unit?

Dude I hope to God you are over reacting, cuz this crap can go south very quick and before you know it your posting a thread about how your old lady isn't coming home at night!!!!!

Then before you know it you come home from work and the toilet seat is up and one or two beers are missing!


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## larry.gray

Anon Pink said:


> That is so far from reality!
> 
> It's just like when parents complain their perfect little angle is just hanging with the wrong friends...it's not our child, it's his friends! Yet they never ask why their perfect little angel is attracted to such friends in the first place.


My son is no little angel and I know that. I also know that one of the kids he was hanging out with is a sociopath. That's not hyperbole, the kid is devoid of empathy and is downright sadistic. 



Anon Pink said:


> Yet they never ask why their perfect little angel is attracted to such friends in the first place.


Because somebody that can thumb their nose at authority in so many creative ways is "cool."


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## MattMatt

Anon Pink said:


> That is so far from reality!
> 
> It's just like when parents complain their perfect little angle is just hanging with the wrong friends...it's not our child, it's his friends! Yet they never ask why their perfect little angel is attracted to such friends in the first place.
> 
> If you go the route of controlling and doubting you are making things worse. Work on your side of the fence and make sure she is blessedly happy with you before she walks out the door!


How sad that there are many, many examples of toxic friends doing exactly this at TAM.


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## Anon Pink

MattMatt said:


> How sad that there are many, many examples of toxic friends doing exactly this at TAM.


While this is undoubtedly true, I don't think it's safe to extrapolate that common themes found in CWI be applied in the real world.

I can give you examples of the opposite being true as well.


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## lenzi

Definitely some problems here.

Influencial friend in a bad marriage convinces your wife to go places with her that you would not approve of and it leads to at least one lie that you know of. There are problems in your marriage, to the point that you will be going to marriage counseling soon.

The only good thing I see here is the impending marriage counseling. Address your concerns there, through the third party counselor. Otherwise she'll just tell you that you're being controlling and unreasonable. 

Until then, be a good guy, pay attention to her, watch your bad habits, make her happy. But don't go so far that you're acting weak and pathetic because you're afraid of losing her. That would have the opposite effect of what you want.


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## Anon Pink

Caribbean Man said:


> Funny how the shoe never seem to fit right when it's on our own feet.
> 
> My wife once had this friend who I considered as toxic. She lived in our neighbourhood and was a serial cheater, over the top flirt.
> He husband worked overseas for eight months of the ear.
> Rumour had it that she slept with a at least two of the neighbourhood's husbands.
> Of course she was the " life of the party." Always full of
> " relationship advice" and stories to tell.
> I told my wife I didn't like her, my wife though I was overreacting and insisted that the stories were rumours.
> Then she started coming across to our home to hang out with my wife. She started making jokes and throwing little sexual innuendoes to me. I never responded , because I knew exactly what she was doing , and I didn't like her. I warned my wife again. Again she thought I was overreacting.
> Then one evening we were all at another neighbour's house hanging out, joking and so on, when she , probably a bit drunk, jokingly made a comment to my wife implying that she could give me a better f*ck than my wife could.
> 
> My wife finally got the message...


Were you concerned this friend was going to lead your wife astray or were you concerned she was going to lead you astray?


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## Starstarfish

> My wife and I enjoy one another a lot (19+ years) but I just wish she would express her stresses about our marriage or me to me directly and not to someone who is in a failed marriage.


You mean like the fine people of TAM? There's definitely no people in failed or failing marriages giving advice out here.  How is you griping to all of us, and her griping to her friend really fundamentally different?

I'd say the fact this friend is bringing out poor behavior choices in your wife (like lying) is a far worse problem than people wanting or needing to vent once in a while.


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## MrK

Wingman. Oh, how we throw that term out so casually, like it's a playdate or something. 

What do you think your wife was going to be doing for 6 hours when out playing "wingman"? She told you she was going to be partying, possibly pretty hard, with men she hadn't met yet. But she didn't really put it in those terms, did she? No. She was really just going on a playdate, right? And you'd better not have a problem with it.

And "dinner"? An apetizer split between them could make it dinner. But then they're at the bar so it's a standard GNO now, right? That was her first night out. And whatever happened that night, she liked it. And told you she wanted to do it again. Only this time a lie had already been found out so she sprinkled in some truth. "OK, this time it REALLY IS a playdate with my BFF. It's just that she's been so down lately..."

She is DIGGING this hookup scene. Now really think about what your wife has already done at least once and wants to do again. Only this time 'till 3AM.

This ain't over. Good luck to you. Keep us posted.


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## Theseus

Caribbean Man said:


> My wife once had this friend who I considered as toxic. She lived in our neighbourhood and was a serial cheater, over the top flirt.



CM, I think you and several other people are going off way off course here. 

Just for a course correction: in this situation, the wife is not the cheater, the HUSBAND is.

The OP thinks she is going to become a cheater, and is out for a revenge affair or something, but he has no evidence of this other than the "vibe" he is getting. So he really doesn't know.

The OP, (as well as TAM) shouldn't treat her like she's "toxic" unless she actually does something toxic. In other words, she shouldn't be punished for the things her husband did. Guilt by association is unfair and morally wrong.


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## Anon Pink

Theseus said:


> CM, I think you and several other people are going off way off course here.
> 
> Just for a course correction: in this situation, the wife is not the cheater, the HUSBAND is.
> 
> The OP thinks she is going to become a cheater, and is out for a revenge affair or something, but he has no evidence of this other than the "vibe" he is getting. So he really doesn't know.
> 
> The OP, (as well as TAM) shouldn't treat her like she's "toxic" unless she actually does something toxic. In other words, she shouldn't be punished for the things her husband did. Guilt by association is unfair and morally wrong.



Thank You for bringing some clarity into the growing hysterics!


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## Caribbean Man

Anon Pink said:


> Were you concerned this friend was going to lead your wife astray or were you concerned she was going to lead you astray?


Well both my wife and I are adults and we both take responsibility for _our_ actions. I know for certain , nobody could lead me astray , we all make choices.

That said, the issue of either of us being " led astray " never arose. The substantive issue was whether we really needed a person with a chronic personality disorder , who didn't respect anyone's boundaries , lacked any moral sense, or a sense of shame , in our social circle / marriage, as a friend.

People either add value or stress to relationships.

My wife obviously didn't share my perspective. Initially, she refused to see that the woman was a sociopath . No problem . I simply alerted her and left it at that. 
Eventually the woman outed herself, as all mischief makers, deceitful and cunning people ALWAYS do. 
Down here we have a saying ,

"_Give them enough rope, and they always hang themselves_."

So I was never concerned that my wife or even myself would be
" led astray " by this woman because we are not easily led astray.
But I didn't need that type of drama in our relationship.


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## Caribbean Man

Theseus said:


> CM, I think you and several other people are going off way off course here.
> 
> Just for a course correction: in this situation, the wife is not the cheater, the HUSBAND is.
> 
> The OP thinks she is going to become a cheater, and is out for a revenge affair or something, but he has no evidence of this other than the "vibe" he is getting. So he really doesn't know.
> 
> The OP, (as well as TAM) shouldn't treat her like she's "toxic" unless she actually does something toxic. In other words, she shouldn't be punished for the things her husband did. Guilt by association is unfair and morally wrong.


Well I NEVER said that the wife's friend was toxic.
The OP did.
But IMO, any " friend" who isn't adding value to a marriage , and is taking away from it, will eventually destroy it.
Even if that isn't toxic, it ain't good.
That's the OP's concern.

Furthermore, being a cheater or cheated on doesn't automatically make a person " toxic."

But anybody who is affected by a subconscious malevolence or psychosis that in turn has a negative effect on the lives of those who form any type of relationships with them, can be considered as toxic.

There are toxic persons in work environments , not because they cheated or were cheated on, but because they have unresolved issues that negatively affect their interactions with other people.


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## ReformedHubby

Caribbean Man said:


> My wife obviously didn't share my perspective. Initially, she refused to see that the woman was a sociopath . No problem . I simply alerted her and left it at that.
> Eventually the woman outed herself, as all mischief makers, deceitful and cunning people ALWAYS do.
> Down here we have a saying ,
> 
> "_Give them enough rope, and they always hang themselves_."


This part I agree with. I think my issue with this thread is that I think a lot of posters are jumping the gun. Yes, toxic friends do always out themselves. My wife was good friends with a woman that went off the rails and left her marriage to juggle multiple men. My wife against my wishes wanted to be there for her and get her back on track. Long story short it was futile. 

He friend was only interested in giving my wife a makeover so they could go out together. To this day I think my wife was more offended that her friend thought she needed a makeover more than anything else. My wife always thinks she can change people for the better. They don't even talk anymore. Toxic friends always show their hand. The question is once they do what is your spouse going to do about it? For those of us in happy marriages once this is revealed to us we terminate the relationship.


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## Cubby

Caribbean Man said:


> Well I NEVER said that the wife's friend was toxic.
> The OP did.
> But IMO, any " friend" who isn't adding value to a marriage , and is taking away from it, will eventually destroy it.
> Even if that isn't toxic, it ain't good.
> That's the OP's concern.
> 
> Furthermore, being a cheater or cheated on doesn't automatically make a person " toxic."
> 
> But anybody who is affected by a subconscious malevolence or psychosis that in turn has a negative effect on the lives of those who form any type of relationships with them, can be considered as toxic.
> 
> There are toxic persons in work environments , not because they cheated or were cheated on, but because they have unresolved issues that negatively affect their interactions with other people.


:iagree: Well said, Caribbean Man. It's always a wise policy to surround yourself with good people.


----------



## Theseus

Caribbean Man said:


> Well I NEVER said that the wife's friend was toxic.
> The OP did.
> But IMO, any " friend" who isn't adding value to a marriage , and is taking away from it, will eventually destroy it.
> Even if that isn't toxic, it ain't good.


Using that logic, then I could insist that my wife stop talking to anyone that I consider annoying, her mother, her friend, her siblings, etc.




> _But anybody who is affected by a subconscious malevolence or psychosis that in turn has a negative effect on the lives of those who form any type of relationships with them, can be considered as toxic.
> 
> There are toxic persons in work environments , not because they cheated or were cheated on, but because they have unresolved issues that negatively affect their interactions with other people._


This woman is a BS. So just when she needs her friend the most, everyone should instead shun her because her "misery loves company" vibe could "negatively affect" other couples? That's what you are insinuating here, and I couldn't possibly disagree more. 

That's like a germophobe trying to stay healthy by shutting himself in his house and never going outside.

Now having said all that, it's quite possible this friend is toxic. But what bothers me is that the OP is assuming all these things without hearing or seeing any of it. Friends should get the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, particularly friends in need. 

To the OP: if your wife cheated on you, and your friends shunned you because you could negatively affect their relationships, then you might feel very differently here.


----------



## Anon Pink

Theseus said:


> Using that logic, then I could insist that my wife stop talking to anyone that I consider annoying, her mother, her friend, her siblings, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This woman is a BS. So just when she needs her friend the most, everyone should instead shun her because her "misery loves company" vibe could "negatively affect" other couples? That's what you are insinuating here, and I couldn't possibly disagree more.
> 
> That's like a germophobe trying to stay healthy by shutting himself in his house and never going outside.
> 
> Now having said all that, it's quite possible this friend is toxic. But what bothers me is that the OP is assuming all these things without hearing or seeing any of it. Friends should get the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, particularly friends in need.
> 
> To the OP: if your wife cheated on you, and your friends shunned you because you could negatively affect their relationships, then you might feel very differently here.



Wish I could like this several times!

Exactly spot on!


----------



## Pault

Caribbean Man said:


> Well I NEVER said that the wife's friend was toxic.
> The OP did.
> But IMO, any " friend" who isn't adding value to a marriage , and is taking away from it, will eventually destroy it.
> Even if that isn't toxic, it ain't good.
> That's the OP's concern.
> 
> Furthermore, being a cheater or cheated on doesn't automatically make a person " toxic."
> 
> But anybody who is affected by a subconscious malevolence or psychosis that in turn has a negative effect on the lives of those who form any type of relationships with them, can be considered as toxic.
> 
> There are toxic persons in work environments , not because they cheated or were cheated on, but because they have unresolved issues that negatively affect their interactions with other people.


:iagree::iagree:

At anytime a "friend" wants the "wing man" so that they can retaliate means that the "wing man" is in danger of being shot down as well. (forgive the pun - to much top gun). The OP has a right to feel concern if he sees a potential situation developing where an innocent party is dragged in. If someone is really concerned about their partner not bening open as to their where abouts then one must agree that its not good thing to do and then complain a partner is controlling. I feel the "controlling" bullet is fired when the one breaching the boundries is intending to, has or is giving the impresssion of over stepping. 

There are of course people out there that are controlling. I dont ignore this possibility in the OPs entries here.

If he feels at risk he has the right to make the statement openly and honestly to his W and she should consider, with care the potential outcome if her "friends" actions over spill in to her life.

Been there, seen it and still suffer because of a so called friend leading my W along a line that is NOT acceptable.

(all posted under the banner of IMO)


----------



## Jellybeans

Ok the vibe I am getting is that you really don't like her friend.
And I think it's wrong of you to think her friend is toxic because her husband cheated on her. That's not something her friend did; it's something her husband did. Blaming the victim? 

Your wife should not have lied to you at all. My guess is that she senses your hatred for her friend so she feels bad that she has any type of friendship with said woman and feels like she can't be open with you about it cause all you are going to do is cut her down.

How do you feel about your wife's other friends? Do you get along with them?


----------



## Caribbean Man

Theseus said:


> This woman is a BS. So just when she needs her friend the most, everyone should instead shun her because her "misery loves company" vibe could "negatively affect" other couples? That's what you are insinuating here, and I couldn't possibly disagree more.
> 
> That's like a germophobe trying to stay healthy by shutting himself in his house and never going outside.
> 
> Now having said all that, it's quite possible this friend is toxic. But what bothers me is that the OP is assuming all these things without hearing or seeing any of it. Friends should get the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, particularly friends in need.


_" Well recently he worked late (till 9pm) on her birthday and she hasn't been happy about that.* So now, she seems to want to retaliate by going to a bar / club, etc. etc. And, by doing so she's in need of a "wing-man" which would be my wife. *_
...........................................................................................

Definition of a " Wingman."

Wingman 
A Wingman is a guy [ or girl in this case ] you bring along with you on *singles* 
outings (like to bars) that helps you out with the women [ or men in this case]. 

Typically in these ways : 
• The Wingman will always be there to “occupy” least 
attractive girl of the pair so that you may engage in the “hotty” 
• Often, when an attractive girl is out with an ugly friend, she often feels restricted to not leave that ugly friend alone, thus making the hot girl, un-touchable. 
• When the wingman technique is used, both girls are 
approached by the men, and the Wingman automatically 
engages in conversation with the ugly girl. 
• Now that the hot friend sees that the ugly girl has finally found a man, she is now free to start scouting. 
• This is where you come in “unexpectidly” and “accidentaly”, and begin catching up on “old times” with the Wingman. 
• The Wingman then offers the ugly girl to dance, (which 
rarley happens to her) so she wont be able to resist. 

...........................................................................................

_*Recently I caught my wife in a HUGE lie about meeting her at a bar for diner after work*, and now I'm the bad guy b/c I'm now considered obsessive or controlling. If you ask me her friend hates her marriage and is jealous that I'm a good husband and father; when it comes down to it. So she's trying to pull her into her bull**** marriage._
~OP

IMO, the wife's " friend" is actively trying to enlist this man's wife help in having a revenge affair. All the signs point to that. She's not asking this man's wife to help her get over the trauma of her husband's affair , but she's asking her to help her pick up another man in a SINGLE'S bar.
She's a married woman , looking for a man in a bar, maybe she's looking for a mechanic to fix her car? 
Or a good dentist?
Or a doctor?
Or a priest to pray for her?
Who knows? Those types and more can be found in a bar and a wingman's help would be absolutely necessary , for success, I'm sure.

Normal people sometimes have affairs, normal people sometimes have revenge affairs.
But when this type of behaviour involves getting other ,innocent people involved in your scheme , encouraging them to lie and risk damaging their relationships in pursuit of your own selfish agendas,
Then you are TOXIC.


----------



## Anon Pink

Pault said:


> :iagree::iagree:
> 
> At anytime a "friend" wants the "wing man" so that they can retaliate means that the "wing man" is in danger of being shot down as well. (forgive the pun - to much top gun). The OP has a right to feel concern if he sees a potential situation developing where an innocent party is dragged in. If someone is really concerned about their partner not bening open as to their where abouts then one must agree that its not good thing to do and then complain a partner is controlling. I feel the "controlling" bullet is fired when the one breaching the boundries is intending to, has or is giving the impresssion of over stepping.
> 
> There are of course people out there that are controlling. I dont ignore this possibility in the OPs entries here.
> 
> If he feels at risk he has the right to make the statement openly and honestly to his W and she should consider, with care the potential outcome if her "friends" actions over spill in to her life.
> 
> Been there, seen it and still suffer because of a so called friend leading my W along a line that is NOT acceptable.
> 
> (all posted under the banner of IMO)


The terms "wingman" and "toxic friends" are hot buttons here at TAM.

But when we look close at OP's words we can see that he is jumping to wild conclusions and using hot button TAM terms to sway sympathy to his cause.



weathermakernj said:


> My true "hang up" is that her friend is in a failed marriage of infidelity so I don't want her to influence my wife about how bad marriage can be or is. I think our marriage is good, and I feel that her friend may be jealous that I'm more in "tune" to one another and our children; where her friend's husband isn't always there or involved. I love my wife but I don't love the fact that she is getting "coached" about our marriage; especially from someone who is in a train wreck marriage.


Because the friend has lived through a failed marriage via infedelity, the friend can now point out red flags to his wife? Because the friend took the path of least resistance and still ended up in a failed marriage he doesn't want his wife to get any "funny ideas" that HE isn't living up to his end of the bargain and what the wife should do about, benefits of hindsight and all that?
What makes OP jump to the conclusion she is being "coached" by anyone? 

I always wonder what a guy needs to hide if he gets his panties in a bunch about his wife talking to someone about the marriage. I also wonder if OP wants to nix this relationship so his wife doesn't wise up about his own affairs? Discredit the whistle blower maybe?

For a guy with so few TAM posts he sure does know what hot buttons to push.

Maybe he's been watching too much Shrek movies?


----------



## Jellybeans

Did she actually tell your wife she wanted her to be her "wingman?" And go to a club? Because having dinner at a bar is hardly "clubbing."

What was the HUGE lie specifically?


----------



## Anon Pink

Caribbean Man said:


> The wife's " friend" is actively trying to enlist this man's wife help in having a revenge affair. All the signs point to that. She's not asking this man's wife to help her get over the trauma of her husband's affair , but she's asking her to help her pick up another man in a SINGLE'S bar.
> 
> .


But we don't now that. What we can agree on is that OP's wife went out with friend but lied to OP about it. Anything else is speculation and jumping to conclusions when there are no facts to support those conclusions but are some facts to support the conclusion that OP JUMPS to Conlcusions.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Anon Pink said:


> But we don't now that. What we can agree on is that OP's wife went out with friend but lied to OP about it. Anything else is speculation and jumping to conclusions when there are no facts to support those conclusions but are some facts to support the conclusion that OP JUMPS to Conlcusions.


And why do you suppose she would LIE about having an * innocent* dinner date with a female friend? In addition, instead of taking responsibility for telling a blatant lie, she starts blameshifting and accusing her husband of being " obsessive & controlling."
When people lie, they lie to hide information they know would not be well received.
she had an excellent opportunity of coming clean when she was caught telling a lie.
Instead, she dug in her heels.
There is no problem for which telling a lie and blameshifting is a legitimate solution.


----------



## sinnister

I find it fascinating that some don't think it's possible that this friend very well may be toxic.

It happens all of the time. 

I don't care if he cheated. That has absolutely zero baring on whether or not his wife's friend is toxic. 

Sometimes this place treats cheaters horribly. Even if they have enough balls to come here and ask for advice, and you have zero stake in their relationship.


----------



## Jellybeans

Caribbean Man said:


> And why do you suppose she would LIE about having an * innocent* dinner date with a female friend?
> When people lie, they lie to hide information they know would not be well received.


I think it's because she realizes how much her husband hates her friend. Does that make it right, hell no. But that's the only reason why I think she'd do it.


----------



## Unique Username

Theseus said:


> Using that logic, then I could insist that my wife stop talking to anyone that I consider annoying, her mother, her friend, her siblings, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This woman is a BS. So just when she needs her friend the most, everyone should instead shun her because her "misery loves company" vibe could "negatively affect" other couples? That's what you are insinuating here, and I couldn't possibly disagree more.
> 
> That's like a germophobe trying to stay healthy by shutting himself in his house and never going outside.
> 
> Now having said all that, it's quite possible this friend is toxic. But what bothers me is that the OP is assuming all these things without hearing or seeing any of it. Friends should get the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise, particularly friends in need.
> 
> To the OP: if your wife cheated on you, and your friends shunned you because you could negatively affect their relationships, then you might feel very differently here.


If her friend NEEDED HER THE MOST at this time - then having a bottle of wine and crying, talking etc. would have been a better choice than hootin it up like a single woman at a bar....considering they both are married.

But - whatever. Point here is that OPs belief that the "friend" could be toxic to his and his wife's relationship.

He said he was going to marriage counseling WITH his wife....so best place where they both can shre what's REALLY eating at them and to work to mend the little kink in the armour of their NINETEEN YEAR MARRIAGE.


And get this - I actually HAD A control freak husband who isolated me. My husbad's goal was to keep me at home so he could go out and cheat. 
That is NOT what the OP is trying to do here.

Anyway - OP good luck at the MC. BE HONEST while there. Say what your fears or worries are without pointing blame. I'm sure that the therapist can help you both amicably iron out the little ruffle.

Ya know all you women here LOVE to say go with your gut - believe what you feel. But yet you are lambasting the OP as a control freak. I seriously didn't get that vibe from him at all. AND he has every right to feel whatever he feels.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Jellybeans said:


> I think it's because she realizes how much her husband hates her friend. Does that make it right, hell no. But that's the only reason why I think she'd do it.


And that may very well be the only reason...

But wait!
When the lie was exposed , instead of owning up to it, she blameshifted and accused her husband of being " obsessive and controlling."
She dug in her heels.
None of my friends are worth lying to my wife to cover their actions, and falsely accusing her like that.
In fact ,none of them would dare ask me to do that.
My marriage is worth much, much more than that.

It all comes down to choices.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Unique Username said:


> If her friend NEEDED HER THE MOST at this time -* then having a bottle of wine and crying, talking etc. would have been a better choice than hootin it up like a single woman at a bar....considering they both are married.*


:iagree:
It's THAT^^^ simple.

Now if the OP disagreed with something like that, then definitely one could assume that he was a control freak.


----------



## treyvion

Caribbean Man said:


> _" Well recently he worked late (till 9pm) on her birthday and she hasn't been happy about that.* So now, she seems to want to retaliate by going to a bar / club, etc. etc. And, by doing so she's in need of a "wing-man" which would be my wife. *_
> ...........................................................................................
> 
> Definition of a " Wingman."
> 
> Wingman
> A Wingman is a guy [ or girl in this case ] you bring along with you on *singles*
> outings (like to bars) that helps you out with the women [ or men in this case].
> 
> Typically in these ways :
> • The Wingman will always be there to “occupy” least
> attractive girl of the pair so that you may engage in the “hotty”
> • Often, when an attractive girl is out with an ugly friend, she often feels restricted to not leave that ugly friend alone, thus making the hot girl, un-touchable.
> • When the wingman technique is used, both girls are
> approached by the men, and the Wingman automatically
> engages in conversation with the ugly girl.


The "ugly" may be the one who is giving up the putty...



Caribbean Man said:


> • Now that the hot friend sees that the ugly girl has finally found a man, she is now free to start scouting.
> • This is where you come in “unexpectidly” and “accidentaly”, and begin catching up on “old times” with the Wingman.
> • The Wingman then offers the ugly girl to dance, (which
> rarley happens to her) so she wont be able to resist.
> 
> ...........................................................................................
> 
> _*Recently I caught my wife in a HUGE lie about meeting her at a bar for diner after work*, and now I'm the bad guy b/c I'm now considered obsessive or controlling. If you ask me her friend hates her marriage and is jealous that I'm a good husband and father; when it comes down to it. So she's trying to pull her into her bull**** marriage._
> ~OP


"good husband and father" does not play into Athol Kay's "sex rank" system. If you have a godly and "good" wife, you may just get extra credit for being a loyal and loving man. If she's on the fence, she's looking at raw attraction and social validation.



Caribbean Man said:


> IMO, the wife's " friend" is actively trying to enlist this man's wife help in having a revenge affair. All the signs point to that. She's not asking this man's wife to help her get over the trauma of her husband's affair , but she's asking her to help her pick up another man in a SINGLE'S bar.


Sounds toxic.



Caribbean Man said:


> She's a married woman , looking for a man in a bar, maybe she's looking for a mechanic to fix her car?
> Or a good dentist?
> Or a doctor?
> Or a priest to pray for her?
> Who knows? Those types and more can be found in a bar and a wingman's help would be absolutely necessary , for success, I'm sure.
> 
> Normal people sometimes have affairs, normal people sometimes have revenge affairs.
> But when this type of behaviour involves getting other ,innocent people involved in your scheme , encouraging them to lie and risk damaging their relationships in pursuit of your own selfish agendas,
> Then you are TOXIC.


True. I don't understand how friends who see friends who do this stuff can't see it as toxic, but they never understand until it's happening to them. There's a bunch of drama and bs that goes on in the party land, the place where $hit does not stink.


----------



## Jellybeans

Unique Username said:


> Ya know all you women here LOVE to say go with your gut - believe what you feel. But yet you are lambasting the OP as a control freak. I seriously didn't get that vibe from him at all. AND he has every right to feel whatever he feels.


I don't think anyone is "lambasting" the OP. They are just offering different points of view.



weathermakernj said:


> My true "hang up" is that her friend is in a failed marriage of infidelity so I don't want her to influence my wife about how bad marriage can be or is.


Is that what this is about? That you feel that since her wife got cheated on, she may mess up your marriage? That seems displaced.



weathermakernj said:


> I feel that if I make any slight negative comment about her toxic friend; I'm as good as dirt.


How often are you negative about her friend? Is it everytime she brings her name up? Is this a new t thing or have you never liked her?



Cubby said:


> I'm not sure we have all the information.


Is what I am thinking.


----------



## Anon Pink

sinnister said:


> I find it fascinating that some don't think it's possible that this friend very well may be toxic.
> 
> It happens all of the time.
> 
> I don't care if he cheated. That has absolutely zero baring on whether or not his wife's friend is toxic.
> 
> Sometimes this place treats cheaters horribly. Even if they have enough balls to come here and ask for advice, and you have zero stake in their relationship.


It also happens all the time that women get together and console one another.

You all are jumping to wild conclusions based on one fact...the wife went out with a distraught friend but lied to her husband with an admitted history of not liking said friend.

Zebra! Zebras! Hoof beats, 4 legs...it must be a zebra!


----------



## Jellybeans

weathermakernj said:


> At the end of the day, I just want to maintain a healthy marriage without any sideline opinions or influence. When others are not happy they tend to wanna bring someone down with them.


I can understand you wanting to protect your marriage. Absolutely. But the thing is, not everyone has a happy marriage. Not every marriage lasts forever. Not every marriage escapes infidelity. These are the facts. You can protect your marriage but you cannot shut it out from real life and things that happen to other people. Those things are not directly to your marriage. You said that when people are unhappy, they tend to want to bring others down. I don't think that is a very compassionate assessment. Granted, if she point blank told your wife "Come out to pick up guys at the club with me, I need a wing-man" then that is offside. Your wife could say no. But if she simply invited your wife to eat dinner at a bar after work, that isn't the same as "clubbing" or picking up dudes or saying she wants a "wing man." It would be good if you could offer us more info.

Your posts seem to come across as you have a lot of disdain at her friend because her friend got cheated on.


----------



## zookeeper

Unique Username said:


> Ya know all you women here LOVE to say go with your gut - believe what you feel. But yet you are lambasting the OP as a control freak. I seriously didn't get that vibe from him at all. AND he has every right to feel whatever he feels.


Cheaters often call their BS's "control freaks" when they object to the inappropriate behavior. "You don't want me to hang out with my newly divorced ex in a bar? Control freak!"

Taking control is different from being controlling. If more people were actively involved in defending their relationships, perhaps fewer marriages would end they way they do. I'll give the OP the benefit of the doubt and believe that he has identified this friend as toxic for many more things than this single wingman incident. If so, I commend him for being proactive in trying to stop this before it goes too far. It may not work, but doing nothing out of fear of being labeled "controlling" never seems to.


----------



## Theseus

Caribbean Man said:


> _" Well recently he worked late (till 9pm) on her birthday and she hasn't been happy about that.* So now, she seems to want to retaliate by going to a bar / club, etc. etc. And, by doing so she's in need of a "wing-man" which would be my wife. *_
> ...........................................................................................
> 
> Definition of a " Wingman."



Please don't patronize me. I know what a wingman is. The point is, the OP is using that word without any evidence other than a "vibe" he's getting. Putting his statement in huge bold letters doesn't change that.




> _*Recently I caught my wife in a HUGE lie about meeting her at a bar for diner after work*_
> ~OP


That just doesn't raise my alarm meter even with the huge font you gave it. I disagree that was a "huge" lie, in fact, as far as lies go, that's pretty much at the bottom of the scale, since she was probably just trying to avoid another argument with her husband.



> _She's a married woman , looking for a man in a bar, maybe she's looking for a mechanic to fix her car?
> Or a good dentist?
> Or a doctor?
> Or a priest to pray for her?
> Who knows?_


How about the simple explanation, that they were just going out to eat like the OP's wife said they did?

If my wife met a friend at TGI Friday's, my default assumption would be that they went there to eat, not hang out on the barstools flirting with guys watching the Patriots game. This would still be my assumption even if her friend had just been cheated on. 



> _But when this type of behaviour involves getting other ,innocent people involved in your scheme , encouraging them to lie and risk damaging their relationships in pursuit of your own selfish agendas,
> Then you are TOXIC._


I agree with that, but I don't read that into the current situation. Without more information, the default position should be compassion, not the assumption that everyone is out to have an affair. Not all women are sleeping around, although you might get that impression from reading the threads on TAM for too long.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

A number of good points made by both sides. In reality, I'd bet both sides would largely agree on how the OP should handle the situation if we knew more of the facts. So far, we have the OP's interpretation of what he THINKS is going on. It's hard to say if he's overreacting or if he's spot on. We don't even know the OP well enough to judge whether he's a paranoid by nature guy or if he's normally even keel. 

Here is something that I find interesting more so than the typical discussion about toxic friends. The wife's friend had her husband outed to everyone in their social circle as a cheater. So in a situation like this we normally see friends who "choose sides" in favor of the BS or the WS. Also in this case, the OP appears to be one of the 3rd type who "does not want to get involved" in the drama. This is probably the best course, but I think it's interesting that this exposure will potentially backfire on the friend who is a BS. While the WS may be the guilty party (who knows though since we know zero about this situation), the BS appears to be a part of the "collateral damage" and is potentially going to lose a friend because a husband doesn't want to have the mess touch them in any way, shape or form.

If this "toxic friend" started a thread and through the course of the thread she bemoaned the fact that group friends appear to be deserting her, the OP and his wife would be excoriated as being "bad friends" or "fair weather friends". I guess it's interesting how perspectives change whenever the story is given. It seems like the first person to open up is normally painted as the sympathetic one.


----------



## Jellybeans

zookeeper said:


> Cheaters often call their BS's "control freaks" when they object to the inappropriate behavior. "You don't want me to hang out with my newly divorced ex in a bar? Control freak!"


So now his wife is a cheater?


----------



## Jellybeans

Plan 9 from OS said:


> A number of good points made by both sides. In reality, I'd bet both sides would largely agree on how the OP should handle the situation if we knew more of the facts. So far, we have the OP's interpretation of what he THINKS is going on.


True.



Plan 9 from OS said:


> Here is something that I find interesting more so than the typical discussion about toxic friends. The wife's friend had her husband outed to everyone in their social circle as a cheater. So in a situation like this we normally see friends who "choose sides" in favor of the BS or the WS. Also in this case, the OP appears to be one of the 3rd type who "does not want to get involved" in the drama. This is probably the best course, but I think it's interesting that this exposure will potentially backfire on the friend who is a BS. While the WS may be the guilty party (who knows though since we know zero about this situation), the BS appears to be a part of the "collateral damage" and is potentially going to lose a friend because a husband doesn't want to have the mess touch them in any way, shape or form.


:iagree:


----------



## zookeeper

Jellybeans said:


> So now his wife is a cheater?


I don't believe I said that. I simply intended to show how labels afe sometimes used to gaslight a victim. You don't know the OP's situation any more than I do. It behooves him to investigate and to make every effort he deems necessary to prevent his marriage from suffering. Those here who would call him controlling without any further information could very well discourage him from taking necessary action.


----------



## Anon Pink

zookeeper said:


> I don't believe I said that. I simply intended to show how labels afe sometimes used to gaslight a victim. You don't know the OP's situation any more than I do. It behooves him to investigate and to make every effort he deems necessary to prevent his marriage from suffering. Those here who would call him controlling without any further information could very well discourage him from taking necessary action.


And preventing a wife from consoling a friend in need based on NOTHING more than guilt by association by association is going to get him labeled as controlling, insecure, and needlessly vindictive.


----------



## Dad&Hubby

We're all just arguing over conjecture.

We don't know the details.

The OP talks about going out to a bar for dinner. There's a HUGE difference with going out to a bar at 5-6pm, chatting over dinner and being home by 9-10 versus going out to a bar at 10pm having something to eat and getting home at 2am.

Also what kind of bar/club are we talking about. We have a ton of places which some people call bars and others call GOOD restaurants. Heck, there's one in particular up where I am which I've gone to as a restaurant, and other times as a bar. I would've given you different responses based on the scenario.

We also need more info on what the friend is ACTUALLY doing that's toxic. I haven't heard that the friend went out DANCING until 2am, or the wife coming home drunk at 2am. etc


----------



## Caribbean Man

Oh boy.

Looks like lying to one spouse is now an acceptable form of behaviour under certain circumstances.


----------



## Jellybeans

I don't believe anyone said it's acceptable to lie. I personally stated the reason why I thought she would do that. Lying is not ok. 

And the OP has vanished from his thread...


----------



## zookeeper

Anon Pink said:


> And preventing a wife from consoling a friend in need based on NOTHING more than guilt by association by association is going to get him labeled as controlling, insecure, and needlessly vindictive.


Spouses needs come first. It should be a cardinal rule in marriage. If he is this uncomfortable with their friendship she should be willing to at least hear him out and agree to some ground rules in their interaction. Period. 

Also, it is your speculation that this is simply guilt by association. Capitalizing the word nothing does not bolster your position. These are all pinions based upon out individual experiences in life. Without further info, either of us could be wrong. Or both.


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## Caribbean Man

zookeeper said:


> *Spouses needs come first. * *It should be a cardinal rule in marriage. *If he is this uncomfortable with their friendship she should be willing to at least hear him out and agree to some ground rules in their interaction. Period.


:iagree:

Quite a lot of people forget that rule.
But there's always TAM to clean up after the fall...


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## Unique Username

Jellybeans said:


> I don't believe anyone said it's acceptable to lie. I personally stated the reason why I thought she would do that. Lying is not ok.
> 
> And the OP has vanished from his thread...



Do you blame him?

And now I'm outta here too.


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## Jellybeans

Unique Username said:


> Do you blame him?


Blame him for what?



Unique Username said:


> And now I'm outta here too.


Goodbye!


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## harrybrown

So if you went out with a "friend" and lied to your wife about it, how would she feel?


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## talk123

Anon Pink said:


> The important info you are missing is..
> 
> *What does your wife think?* -- *Agree! Need to ask.*
> 
> 
> Sheeshe! Are women that stupid, in your opinion, that an otherwise happily married wife is going to be talked into having an affair? *Sometimes. From personal experience, some women (or men) don't realize what they have, and think the grass is greener instead of working to make a great marriage.*
> 
> You are barking up the wrong tree dude. Detoxify your wife by being a great lover, husband and friend. And when your wife goes out she will see the sad state of hookups for what they really are and go home to a loving husband! * Yes. Probably works for most. Still think others are more prone to new romance if exposed to it. I understand where weathermakerNJ is coming from. If I had a choice, I wish my H's friends were are a good influence and supportive of our marriage. *


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## talk123

Anon Pink said:


> And preventing a wife from consoling a friend in need based on NOTHING more than guilt by association by association is going to get him labeled as controlling, insecure, and needlessly vindictive.



_*Original post*_ - *"Many years ago*, my wife's close friend's husband told her he that cheated on her, *yet they stayed together for the sake of their 4 kids.* " - 

_ BS accepted her WH's position years ago and needed consoling back then. So don't think H is preventing consolation to a friend in need. _ Understand Why NJ feels the BS has changed and now is out for revenge.


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## Dad&Hubby

Caribbean Man said:


> Oh boy.
> 
> Looks like lying to one spouse is now an acceptable form of behaviour under certain circumstances.


Oh I'm not saying that at all

There are definitely signs of poor behavior happening, ie the lieing and the blamshifting, by the OP's wife which has me leaning to the fact that this friend and their activities aren't "marriage friendly". IE, it needs to end.

We just don't know the DEGREE of the situation. I'm a HUGE proponent of eliminating people who are not "friends to the marriage" (within reason...someone talked about family etc. Obviously eliminating a relationship from one's mother is different than a friend..as someone stated earlier).


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## Tall Average Guy

Dad&Hubby said:


> Oh I'm not saying that at all
> 
> There are definitely signs of poor behavior happening, ie the lieing and the blamshifting, by the OP's wife which has me leaning to the fact that this friend and their activities aren't "marriage friendly". IE, it needs to end.
> 
> We just don't know the DEGREE of the situation. I'm a HUGE proponent of eliminating people who are not "friends to the marriage" (within reason...someone talked about family etc. Obviously eliminating a relationship from one's mother is different than a friend..as someone stated earlier).


I agree with this (though I think that eliminating family from a relationship is sometimes necessary). 

I do think this thread is a great example of people reading what they want to read based on who they want to be right. Those on the OPs side grab onto the wing women comment and assume toxicity. Those who side with the wife immediately minimize the cheating and latch on to him being controlling.

This is like a Rorschach thread.


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## questar1

What affects one in a marriage, affects both.

Sniff test.

Creep test. 

Something is creepy, and the H is wondering why. This means there's something "off" in the marriage and needs to be addressed.

Kudos to the OP for arranging for MC.

Because something here definitely flunks the sniff test. 

Hence the "Rorschachian" speculation bouncing all over the place. 

That should be a big clue that the OP is legitimately concerned. 

It is in fact what he doesn't know that's giving it the creepy feel. 

There should not be this kind of mystery or uneasiness in the marriage, and THAT is what needs to be addressed. "It's never what's advertised."


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## Cubby

It would help if the OP, weathermakernj, reappeared here to provide more information. He hasn't been logged in since yesterday at 12 PM.


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## Anon Pink

Cubby said:


> It would help if the OP, weathermakernj, reappeared here to provide more information. He hasn't been logged in since yesterday at 12 PM.


Probably because his mom grounded him....


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## Dad&Hubby

Tall Average Guy said:


> I agree with this (though I think that eliminating family from a relationship is sometimes necessary).
> 
> I do think this thread is a great example of people reading what they want to read based on who they want to be right. Those on the OPs side grab onto the wing women comment and assume toxicity. Those who side with the wife immediately minimize the cheating and latch on to him being controlling.
> 
> This is like a Rorschach thread.


I didn't say you shouldn't remove family from your life, I just think family gets a longer rope than friends LOL.

There are MANY family members who are toxic and it makes a marriage very difficult.


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## treyvion

Dad&Hubby said:


> I didn't say you shouldn't remove family from your life, I just think family gets a longer rope than friends LOL.
> 
> There are MANY family members who are toxic and it makes a marriage very difficult.


Live your life away from them and see them a couple times a year around holidays. If you can they are isolated outside of the environments you live and work in.


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## weathermakernj

My wife and I ended up talking things out all around. At times it was very heated but equally understood. I made it clear to her that I'm not a fan of her friend's marital status and I prefer that she doesn't give into her devious ideas or actions. 

I value what I have with my wife, and I don't want others whom may feel jealous of me as a lover, husband, and friend to step in b/w my wife and I. It amazes me just how people act out and think towards others.


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## sidney2718

weathermakernj said:


> My wife and I ended up talking things out all around. At times it was very heated but equally understood. I made it clear to her that I'm not a fan of her friend's marital status and I prefer that she doesn't give into her devious ideas or actions.
> 
> I value what I have with my wife, and I don't want others whom may feel jealous of me as a lover, husband, and friend to step in b/w my wife and I. It amazes me just how people act out and think towards others.


Good! But if I may be so bold what was that "wingman" stuff all about? Was it just your wording or was that really said? It is good that you talked to your wife, even better that you listened to her, but I think that question needs answering.

I seriously think that you wife was not contemplating anything at all wrong or hurtful to you. But it did seem that she was going to participate in something that could not help her friend or her marriage.


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## Starstarfish

> I value what I have with my wife, and I don't want others whom may feel jealous of me as a lover, husband, and friend


I've just got to ask, what gives you the impression that this friend is jealous of your skills as a lover? Do you generally think people are jealous of your lovemaking skills? Are the intimate details of your life a frequent topic of conversation with other people that they've noted jealousy?

That just seems kind of an odd thing to randomly say.


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## the guy

Starstarfish said:


> I've just got to ask, what gives you the impression that this friend is jealous of your skills as a lover? Do you generally think people are jealous of your lovemaking skills? Are the intimate details of your life a frequent topic of conversation with other people that they've noted jealousy?
> 
> That just seems kind of an odd thing to randomly say.


Hell ya its a topic of discussion... it all a topic for discussion when hens get together...they all know who is the biggest c0ck in the hen house is, and who is a neglected hen and who is laying eggs and who isn't.

When our old ladies start a gapping its no holds bar when it comes to their husbands and a bottle of wine coolers.


************disclaimer**************

this is just my own point of view and in no way am I generalizing all female humans but rather typing what I think cuz I can...




I'm sure some women never ever talk about how great their old man is!!!! Heaven forbid her friendy gets jealous.


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## the guy

weathermakernj said:


> At times it was very heated
> .


Sometimes it take a little heat to open things up and get them to work. Its how you handle them when they cool off that is equally important.


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## weathermakernj

Well we went to counseling, and I explained to my wife that is wasn't OK to lie to me regardless if it was just diner with her girlfriend at a bar. I explained to her about her friends poor marriage, and that I felt she was influencing you because misery loves company. She was upset that I would think that she would listen to other people about the directions our marriage is going or could be going. 

After counseling, things have been pretty good. However, this morning my wife woke up for work, and was upset with me because of that fact that I thought there was some nonsense of lying and cheating unfolding or about to unfold in our marriage. 

I told her that I love what we have and I don't want to be lied to on any level (esp. if it involves her friend and a bar). My wife feels a slight disconnect from me and now feels that I don't trust her anymore. I told her I just found it strange how defensive you got by saying I'm "interrogating" you or I'm "obsessive." I was upset b/c I'm neither of the two, and it felt like you were coached into feeling that way. 

Before she left for work I told her that we both been hurt by this, and we can move on from it. It's going to take some time, but it's not the end of the world. It happened, and we're working on fixing it. She felt better, and so did I. I told her it's important for us to do things as a couple more, and enjoy one another (socially, sexually, and mentally). Time will be the true healer. We both feel much better. Talking is always a good thing as long as it doesn't build to resentful meaning.


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## Anon Pink

When actually it was YOU who got "coached" into how to state you case.

Frankly, you sound like a communist about the ban foreign travelers for the dangerous ideology that may influence the people.

As a wife, I'd be furious at you. Prepare for battle!


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## Caribbean Man

weathermakernj said:


> Well we went to counseling, and I explained to my wife that is wasn't OK to lie to me regardless if it was just diner with her girlfriend at a bar. I explained to her about her friends poor marriage, and that I felt she was influencing you because misery loves company. She was upset that I would think that she would listen to other people about the directions our marriage is going or could be going.
> 
> After counseling, things have been pretty good. However, this morning my wife woke up for work, and was upset with me because of that fact that I thought there was some nonsense of lying and cheating unfolding or about to unfold in our marriage.
> 
> I told her that I love what we have and I don't want to be lied to on any level (esp. if it involves her friend and a bar). My wife feels a slight disconnect from me and now feels that I don't trust her anymore. I told her I just found it strange how defensive you got by saying I'm "interrogating" you or I'm "obsessive." I was upset b/c I'm neither of the two, and it felt like you were coached into feeling that way.
> 
> Before she left for work I told her that we both been hurt by this, and we can move on from it. It's going to take some time, but it's not the end of the world. It happened, and we're working on fixing it. She felt better, and so did I. I told her it's important for us to do things as a couple more, and enjoy one another (socially, sexually, and mentally). Time will be the true healer. We both feel much better. Talking is always a good thing as long as it doesn't build to resentful meaning.


It is good that both of you are talking things out. Sometimes it might get heated , but that too , is part of the process.

There are some very helpful books that both of you might want to read , that could help improve the communication , and the overall dynamic in your marriage.

If you are interested, make a new post in the Long Term Success In Marriage sub forum .
Here's the link:

Long Term Success in Marriage

I think you would benefit more across there.

Best wishes.


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## MrK

Anon Pink said:


> Prepare for battle!


Without a doubt. But we, as observers and potential helpers, need to fully understand the battle lines. OP never addressed a couple of specific requests for clarification. 



weathermakernj said:


> ...she seems to want to retaliate by going to a bar / club, etc. etc. And, by doing so she's in need of a "wing-man" which would be my wife.


OK. So your wife must have mentioned that her friend wanted her help in trolling for men. I want to quote this guy from earlier before I proceed



MrK said:


> Wingman. Oh, how we throw that term out so casually, like it's a playdate or something.


Taken literally, this would imply that your wife was supposed to help by keeping the target's friend happy while her friend got laid. Maybe watch TV while they screwed? Talked at the bar while they made out in a corner? No. This guy needed to go 3 hours or so thinking he had a shot at getting laid. By your wife.

So.

Did wife say: "Ew. You wouldn't believe the disgusting thing Janice asked of me today. NO WAY would I EVER do something like that". OR was she asking permission? Looking forward to doing something like that? How did that conversation go down?



weathermakernj said:


> Recently I caught my wife in a HUGE lie about meeting her at a bar for diner after work, and now I'm the bad guy b/c I'm now considered obsessive or controlling.


We do not know what this lie was. But somehow, lies of omission are being forgiven around here left and right. And his wife not telling him she went to a bar with a woman who wants to help her get laid at bars is somehow not a lie of omission.

Or maybe it was an early dinner and they were home at 7. It's not even a bar, just a nice little restaurant that happens to sell drinks. This controlling freak just called it a bar because he's a controlling freak. Or maybe she was just finishing her last little carrot stick from the free "dinner buffet" before she went back to the dance floor to grind against target A's buddy. Hey, it was technically dinner.



weathermakernj said:


> However, this morning my wife woke up for work, and was upset with me because of that fact that I thought there was some nonsense of lying and cheating unfolding or about to unfold in our marriage.
> 
> I told her that I love what we have and I don't want to be lied to on any level (esp. if it involves her friend and a bar). My wife feels a slight disconnect from me and now feels that I don't trust her anymore.


Blameshifting, or a legitimate disconnect because he's a total freak? Was she looking to party with this gal? Maybe already did and lied about it? Or was she just dealing with a freaky friend when her husband gets freakier.

The OP's been vague. Don't pretend to know which end of the extremes this is on. I'll bet it's somewhere in the middle.


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## ReformedHubby

MrK said:


> Without a doubt. But we, as observers and potential helpers, need to fully understand the battle lines. OP never addressed a couple of specific requests for clarification.
> 
> 
> 
> OK. So your wife must have mentioned that her friend wanted her help in trolling for men. I want to quote this guy from earlier before I proceed
> 
> 
> 
> Taken literally, this would imply that your wife was supposed to help by keeping the target's friend happy while her friend got laid. Maybe watch TV while they screwed? Talked at the bar while they made out in a corner? No. This guy needed to go 3 hours or so thinking he had a shot at getting laid. By your wife.
> 
> So.
> 
> Did wife say: "Ew. You wouldn't believe the disgusting thing Janice asked of me today. NO WAY would I EVER do something like that". OR was she asking permission? Looking forward to doing something like that? How did that conversation go down?
> 
> 
> 
> We do not know what this lie was. But somehow, lies of omission are being forgiven around here left and right. And his wife not telling him she went to a bar with a woman who wants to help her get laid at bars is somehow not a lie of omission.
> 
> Or maybe it was an early dinner and they were home at 7. It's not even a bar, just a nice little restaurant that happens to sell drinks. This controlling freak just called it a bar because he's a controlling freak. Or maybe she was just finishing her last little carrot stick from the free "dinner buffet" before she went back to the dance floor to grind against target A's buddy. Hey, it was technically dinner.
> 
> 
> 
> Blameshifting, or a legitimate disconnect because he's a total freak? Was she looking to party with this gal? Maybe already did and lied about it? Or was she just dealing with a freaky friend when her husband gets freakier.
> 
> The OP's been vague. Don't pretend to know which end of the extremes this is on. I'll bet it's somewhere in the middle.


It was definitely too vague for me. Don't get me wrong I'm all for roasting toxic friends when necessary, but this post just didn't give me enough to come to that conclusion. I hope you guys are right because if you're not he basically just made his wife resent him more for no reason. I'm not buying for one minute that she is fine with this. She is just tired of talking about it. I fear he may have added unnecessary turbulence to his relationship for no good reason.


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## Jellybeans

weathermakernj said:


> *I made it clear to her that I'm not a fan of her friend's marital status* and I prefer that she doesn't give into her devious ideas or actions.
> 
> I value what I have with my wife, and I don't want others whom *may feel jealous of me as a lover,* husband, and friend to step in b/w my wife and I.





weathermakernj said:


> I explained to her about her friends poor marriage, and that I felt she was influencing you because misery loves company.


What is it that you are so intimidated and insecure about w/ this friend of hers? Jealous of your as a lover? Really? I can't put my finger on it completely, but it seems like there is another issue here. 

The level of hatred you seem to have for her friend and the fact she was "cheated on" seems really misplaced. 

It's odd.


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## Anon Pink

Jellybeans said:


> What is it that you are so intimidated and insecure about w/ this friend of hers? Jealous of your as a lover? Really? I can't put my finger on it completely, but it seems like there is another issue here.
> 
> The level of hatred you seem to have for her friend and the fact she was "cheated on" seems really misplaced.
> 
> It's odd.


Exactly. His editorial style of naming his wife as wing man yet providing zero evidence that she has in fact agreed to act as wing man and what "wing man" actually refers to, makes me feel his posts are more incendiary and inflammatory in nature and not so much a quest for honest insight based on factual evidence.


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## Jellybeans

_"Some boys take 
a beautiful girl
and hide her away
from the rest of the world..."_

- Cyndi Lauper


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## Anon Pink

the guy said:


> Hell ya its a topic of discussion... it all a topic for discussion when hens get together...they all know who is the biggest c0ck in the hen house is, and who is a neglected hen and who is laying eggs and who isn't.
> 
> When our old ladies start a gapping its no holds bar when it comes to their husbands and a bottle of wine coolers.
> 
> 
> ************disclaimer**************
> 
> this is just my own point of view and in no way am I generalizing all female humans but rather typing what I think cuz I can...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure some women never ever talk about how great their old man is!!!! Heaven forbid her friendy gets jealous.


Aside from the fact that your post reveals a distinct disrespect for the women in your life, you couldn't be more wrong!

With my friends and I, we done talk about our husbands love making skills, but we do berate him for his tendency to use duct tape instead of calling a plumber...

Besides, what service would it be to my friendships if they all knew how effing huge his penis is and how expertly he can manipulate female flesh? It's not beneficial to a friendship to brag....


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## treyvion

the guy said:


> Hell ya its a topic of discussion... it all a topic for discussion when hens get together...they all know who is the biggest c0ck in the hen house is, and who is a neglected hen and who is laying eggs and who isn't.
> 
> When our old ladies start a gapping its no holds bar when it comes to their husbands and a bottle of wine coolers.
> 
> 
> ************disclaimer**************
> 
> this is just my own point of view and in no way am I generalizing all female humans but rather typing what I think cuz I can...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm sure some women never ever talk about how great their old man is!!!! Heaven forbid her friendy gets jealous.


Well when all the others are bashing their old man, he can't do this, he won't do that, etc, etc while he breaks his back providing for her, she won't want to say anything to upset the norm.


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## Starstarfish

> Well when all the others are bashing their old man, he can't do this, he won't do that, etc, etc while he breaks his back providing for her, she won't want to say anything to upset the norm.


Only men have legitimate complains, understood, Captain.


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## weathermakernj

Well I heard my wife and her "toxic" friend chatting away two days ago. I found out the toxic friend's other friend is cheating on her husband. She had sent her a text saying "I'm here and is wife is away, but nothing is happening at the moment" than the toxic friend has told her "Ok, cool." So this toxic friend is getting the update on a cheating friend, and than told her "ok, cool." 

What kind of nonsense is that? I'm not a fan of this person at all.


----------



## sinnister

weathermakernj said:


> Well I heard my wife and her "toxic" friend chatting away two days ago. I found out the toxic friend's other friend is cheating on her husband. She had sent her a text saying "I'm here and is wife is away, but nothing is happening at the moment" than the toxic friend has told her "Ok, cool."  So this toxic friend is getting the update on a cheating friend, and than told her "ok, cool."
> 
> What kind of nonsense is that? I'm not a fan of this person at all.


Remember you are the best judge of your own situation. People here can give you advice but ultimately you're the one that has all the facts. If that happened I wouldnt want my wife anywhere near that POS woman.


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## weathermakernj

What's hard is when you know the truth about something that I'm not supposed to know. I think this women is a POS to "ok" another friend to cheat on her husband. But the real kick in the nuts, is this "friend" that is cool with her other friend cheating is best friends with my wife.


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## RAN

Is it the same Friend(Toxic) her work supervisor ?


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## treyvion

weathermakernj said:


> Well I heard my wife and her "toxic" friend chatting away two days ago. I found out the toxic friend's other friend is cheating on her husband. She had sent her a text saying "I'm here and is wife is away, but nothing is happening at the moment" than the toxic friend has told her "Ok, cool." So this toxic friend is getting the update on a cheating friend, and than told her "ok, cool."
> 
> What kind of nonsense is that? I'm not a fan of this person at all.


The cheating and affairs reeks of entitlement. She's getting a high off the secret and the dual life. Her friends might not really understand how badly she is $hitting on her husband. They never put themself into the shoes of the betrayed.


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## norajane

treyvion said:


> The cheating and affairs reeks of entitlement. She's getting a high off the secret and the dual life. Her friends might not really understand how badly she is $hitting on her husband. They never put themself into the shoes of the betrayed.


Seeing as the "toxic" friend has been betrayed and cheated on by her husband, I think she is more than well aware of how it feels to be in the shoes of the betrayed since those are her own shoes, no? :scratchhead:


----------

