# A observation, a question and a dream



## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Decided to group these together let's see how this works

Observation
How many have payed attention when their spouse is talking to someone about your marriage or the years you have been together, I was listening when mine was talking to someone who was extolling our long marriage wishing they had the same thing. Hearing her talk about our marriage as if everything has been good, hard work yeah but peaches and cream, I don't know just weird sitting there thinking if you only knew the truth about our marriage would you be surprised.

Question
I have my 25th wedding anniversary this September, now I am not going to ask about how I should celebrate the event I will figure out how this milestone should be handled soon (before dday my wife had stated she would like a pretty expensive ring) may be low key just like the last 2 a.d. dday. 
Nope lately my thoughts have been that even though we have been married for almost 25 years our marriage stopped being "our" marriage several years ago the first time she cheated.
I am willing to add the 2 years since dday to our total but I come up with a 15 year figure now, let's call the years in between a pause, not that she was cheating that whole time but more so our marriage stopped being what it was the first time she cheated. It is no where what it was before dday but lets call it a work in progress. Thoughts?

The Dream
Yesterday we were at a picnic with 15-20 people, many friends along with some new introductions it was a lot of fun, non stop for several hours, towards the end of the day I realized it had been several hours since any thoughts of this whole mess had invaded my head and how nice it was.
You get so used to having your day stained with their infidelity and the self doubt that hangs on your back, those periods of time when it all goes away they become precious and I long for more times just like that.
I dream of days when my mind is no longer infected with her infidelity but reality is brief spaces of time are what I will get.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Love=

For your 25th, my thought would be to get her nothing. But take her out to dinner and tell her why. Make it a time to talk to her sincerely about the good things of the last 25 years and the bad. Point out that the bad has changed the relationship permanently.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Talk to her about it. Tell her your thoughts.


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

Try not to let the bad outweight the good over the past 25 years. Easier said than done I'm sure.

Talk to her. Make sure you are open to her about how you are feeling. She put this on you. 

Your R is still a work in progress. Always will be. She wants a nice ring, maybe that's something that can happen when 30 years comes along. Maybe you recommit to each other. 

Sucks you have to go through this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

nuclearnightmare said:


> Love=
> 
> For your 25th, my thought would be to get her nothing. But take her out to dinner and tell her why. Make it a time to talk to her sincerely about the good things of the last 25 years and the bad. Point out that the bad has changed the relationship permanently.


We have kept it low key the past 2 years, quiet dinner at home just us away from kids. She hasn't said anything about wanting a ring or any other gift and I don't think she will, I am sure she will be disappointed but that is solely her problem.
25 years is one of those milestone dates for a marriage I just don't feel like we have been married for all those years, together yes but when she strayed our marriage ended in it's original, intended form


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

PhillyGuy13 said:


> Try not to let the bad outweight the good over the past 25 years. Easier said than done I'm sure.
> 
> Talk to her. Make sure you are open to her about how you are feeling. She put this on you.
> 
> ...


Funny we did renew our vows at 20 years(I threw a big party cake, wedding official the whole nine yards) of course I didn't know she had already broken them once or would break them again a few years later.
I don't think I will go through that again.


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## TimeHeals (Sep 26, 2011)

love=pain said:


> I have my 25th wedding anniversary this September, now I am not going to ask about how I should celebrate the event I will figure out how this milestone should be handled soon (before dday my wife had stated she would like a pretty expensive ring) may be low key just like the last 2 a.d. dday.
> Nope lately my thoughts have been that even though we have been married for almost 25 years our marriage stopped being "our" marriage several years ago the first time she cheated..



First time she cheated? There have been multiple times?

I am pretty sure there is a credit card commercial that will work as a template here:

Diamond ring to celebrate your 25th anniversary? $6,000
Divorce and Freedom? Priceless.

I am pretty sure the 25th anniversary is the Hemlock anniversary if you're married to a serial cheater.

You couldn't pay me enough to switch places with you.

I understand your handle now. I thought it might be something profound like "all attachment leads to suffering because people get sick, they die, and all sorts of bad things happen to them, so your attachment is going to involve some suffering", but nope.

This suffering is self-inflicted by tolerating it and keeping it in your life. Love is not pain. Some masochists have a switch flipped wrong, and they can't figure that out though.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

Perhaps she should be buying you the expensive gift since she is the one who cheated. There is an idea.


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## workindad (May 7, 2011)

LP- keep in mind that you already give her a gift every day. It is better than a diamond ring or some other exotic trinket. It is called R and an opportunity to keep her marriage and family together.

If that is "all" you have to give now... she should still be very happy. 

The way I think... you might want to consider getting an empty box to celebrate your 25th... That could really be fun!


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## PhillyGuy13 (Nov 29, 2013)

love=pain said:


> Funny we did renew our vows at 20 years(I threw a big party cake, wedding official the whole nine yards) of course I didn't know she had already broken them once or would break them again a few years later.
> I don't think I will go through that again.


Ughhhhh.


Sorry man didn't know that.

Do a guys trip to Vegas instead.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

TimeHeals said:


> First time she cheated? There have been multiple times?
> 
> I am pretty sure there is a credit card commercial that will work as a template here:
> 
> ...


Yes she cheated several years ago (once she says) however I never knew and it came out when I caught her 2 years ago( story is on here somewhere) so that has been a bit of a dilemma.

Well without delving into my life story too much the people in your life that should love you, should take care of you and keep you from harm fail most of the time by their own choosing.

You are sort of right love shouldn't cause you pain, unfortunately many times it does, especially when you are hurt time after time by the people who say they love you.
A dog that gets beat and abused will learn to hate the people that cause it pain even if it relies on them to get fed.

Finally my current situation is not self inflicted as it was not by my choosing, staying here is now my decision and mine alone, in the beginning other factors forced me to stay but now things are in a place where I can go.
So am I continuing my suffering by staying in this place maybe but who is to say everything will be fine if I leave?

P.S. I may be a masochist(I don't know) but I really don't enjoy all the emotional pain and I do want better easier in my life, however I also believe that as a husband and father it is my job to sacrifice anything I have for the betterment and care of my family


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## WalterWhite (Sep 14, 2012)

love=pain said:


> Yes she cheated several years ago (once she says) however I never knew and it came out when I caught her 2 years ago( story is on here somewhere) so that has been a bit of a dilemma.
> 
> Well without delving into my life story too much the people in your life that should love you, should take care of you and keep you from harm fail most of the time by their own choosing.
> 
> ...


You wrote "however I also believe that as a husband and father it is my job to sacrifice anything I have for the betterment and care of my family".

There is your problem. You have this delusion that sacrifice means playing the martyr, being the fall guy, eating sheet. 

No, you are wrong and until you stop thinking this way, you will continue to teach your family to [email protected] on you over and over again.

Love is not what is causing you pain. Your lack of self respect, and your lack of enforcing respect shown to you by others is what is causing you all this pain.

Man up!


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

I would keep it low key.

We just had our 25th anniversary 5 days ago on the 9th. We just went out to dinner and neither of us were expecting anything - finances are tight right now, but next year, we'll be able to go on a proper vacation.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

" however I also believe that as a husband and father it is my job to sacrifice anything I have for the betterment and care of my family "

This is what my maternal grandfather did...even raised my grandmother's 'love' child from one of her A's during the late 50's.

Sacrificed ANY chance at happiness for the sake of his DD (my mom).

I did not know any of this til my grandmother passed a few years ago and it all came out in a huge fight between my mom and aunt over taking care of my now very elderly grandfather.

I now look back at episodes from my childhood with a profound new understanding, and not in a good sense.

I never could figure out why my grandfather could be so mean and cruel towards my grandmother at times. At the time everyone in the family just talked about how he had a horrible Scotch/Irish temper and always had.

It really puzzled me...this man was my hero in so many ways as a boy...even more so than my father in some ways.

My grandmother was always a ball of anxiety, but even worse was I noticed even at a young age that she was a master manipulator and liar...always willing to tell other people fibs to avoid anyone ever suffering consequences.

As a little kid, I thought it was great that grandma would cover for me so I wouldn't get in trouble with my parents for some of the foolish things I did.

But by my teens, this aspect of her really bothered me...my dad constantly pounded into me the necessity for an adult to ALWAYS be honest, and to accept any consequences that came from it...by my late teens, I had a very poor relationship with her and NEVER went to her for advice on anything, as I knew she always favored deception and dishonesty to hide from the real world.

Adding to all this dysfunction was the bitter and contentious relationship between my mom and aunt...my aunt had become a meth addict as a teen, primarily because of my grandmother's enabling, and would remain a source of huge family problems til she finally cleaned up about 10 years ago (just before my grandmother passed).

The list of outrages my aunt did to other family members would take pages to recall...my grandmother would cover for her, my mom would blow up and fight with them both, and my grandfather would get silently angry and withdrawal/refuse to deal with it.

The keystone for me finally being able to make sense of this years long soap opera was the inadvertent revelation of my grandmother's A's and my aunt's true parentage in the fight after grandma passed.

Suddenly, I understood so much more about my childhood and family, and I'm very glad to finally know the 'whys' of so many bothersome things from when I was a kid.

But there has been painful fallout too.

My grandpa was my hero for years...I actually tried to be more like him cause he is such a great man in so many ways...I viewed him as a standup and admirable guy. 

That image of him has forever been tarnished...I still love him greatly, but now I can't help but view him with pity...it hurts me to say it, but in some ways I see him as pathetic.

He may have thought he was doing the right thing by staying for the kids, but now I see his choice as being the primary factor in the disaster that my family has become in the 50+ years since the revelation of my grandmother's A and the birth of the POS's child.

I can logically understand the view that 'sacrificing' yourself for your kids and the good of the family is a noble thing.

But after having lived with these experiences, and finally getting the truth that explained why it happened, I can no longer see it as an automatic noble and good sacrifice.

When I read here about people who want to stay for the kids, I cannot help but feel a twinge of worry that they will end up walking in my family's footsteps.

Sorry for the length of this, or if someone feels its a tj....this discussion just really triggered me emotionally.


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

Wow, we made it a whole 12 posts before someone attacked your masculinity. Helpful, huh? I can only assume the ones that insist on doing that get some kind of pleasure from it. Maybe saying ignorant crap like "man up" makes them feel like they are more masculine than you, and therefore better. 

Your OP makes a good deal of sense. I have a few question, and I will leave some comments for you to consider.

How many hours/sessions of individual counseling do you have under your belt? How much individual counseling does she have under hers? Did you attend couples counseling together? How often and for how long? Do you feel she is actively supporting you through this process? 

Your observation is interesting. I too take a great deal of time to listen whenever my spouse is reflecting on our marriage. In your particular example, since you two were out in public, I dont think there is any particular harm in her reflecting positively on your marriage. I think you can look at it as her not wanting to air your laundry in front of others, and maybe to a lesser extent, not wanting to cause you further hurt or shame by bringing up the mess. 


Pain is usually an indicator that something is wrong and needs to be fixed. I know it is difficult to hear when there is still so much work to do, but once the issue is completely resolved, and as the hyper vigilance and hyper focus on the extremely traumatic part of your relationship fades, the time you spent feeling like this will seem like a tiny blip on the radar, or a small drop in a large bucket.

You mention feeling like a portion of your marriage is no longer applicable and should not be considered part of your "years married" did you feel this way before discovering the affair(s) or after? A persons mental state, to a large degree, will dictate how they reflect on life. When my spouse, or me for that matter, are dealing with bouts of depression, we sound like completely different people. 

Empathy, compassion, kindness, understanding, and love, are infinitely harder for me to feel and express when I am severely depressed and not medicated. The world begins to look like a terrible place full of greed, evil, and various other nasty byproducts of "human nature." When I am closer to baseline with my mental health, those points of view seem distant and foreign.

Your marriage will always be, and really, should always be, a work in progress. There is always a way to improve things if you have a like minded partner willing to do the work with you. Milestones are nice, but what are they in reality? I mean we base the length of our year on how long it takes our planet to make a full orbit around the sun. If you stand at the base of the empire state building, that orbit is shorter than if you are standing on the roof. A bit abstract, but I hope you catch my drift.

As you continue to do interpersonal work and relationship building, the spans of time you spend without dwelling on the pain will get bigger, until you no longer spend any meaningful amount of time thinking about it at all.

All of the above is of course based on the assumption that your current spouse "gets it," is truly remorseful and interested in a fulfilling life with you.

I wont go into too much detail about the topic of "sacrifice," but your outlook on it is very understandable, because the western world embraces the concept of "disposable masculinity," and hammers it home at every possible opportunity. Ideas like "women and children first" in an emergency, and "only men on the front lines of combat" coupled with the notion that anything short of suffering in silence makes you a pvssy, leaves little room for a man to actually have inherent self worth and social value. 

If you search "disposable masculinity" you can read up on these concepts in depth. There is nothing wrong with you for feeling this way, you dont need to "man up" or be a "real man," because being born with a penis already achieves those goals. What you need to do, is really think about what you want out of your limited time on this planet, and if the person you are currently with is compatible with those desires, or at the very least, is capable of working to become that person in a reasonable amount of time.


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## Turin74 (Apr 11, 2014)

love=pain said:


> P.S. I may be a masochist(I don't know) but I really don't enjoy all the emotional pain and I do want better easier in my life, however I also believe that as a husband and father it is my job to sacrifice anything I have for the betterment and care of my family


This is hard to read - basically watching a good man broken. My sincere apologies, with no disrespect it seems broken (and no, this has nothing to do with masculinity).

If I may share my view/way on the matter of sacrifice:
It is father's and husband's job to sacrifice anything for the family *as soon as the family does the same in return adjusted to their sex/age*. As soon as this bond is broken, husband/father is entitled to upper the priority of his needs after the basics (food, health, etc) are covered.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


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## BetrayedAgain7 (Apr 27, 2013)

love=pain said:


> So am I continuing my suffering by staying in this place maybe but who is to say everything will be fine if I leave?


Sometimes the biggest risk in life is never to take a risk.

Honestly? You sound like you are done. 

Don't let your future life go unlived by holding onto the past and to what once was a life, but is now no more.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

love=pain said:


> Yes she cheated several years ago (once she says) however I never knew and it came out when I caught her 2 years ago( story is on here somewhere) so that has been a bit of a dilemma.


This is from your post on November 26, *2012*



love=pain said:


> Been lurking for a long time, figured I would throw some random thoughts out just to get them off my chest.
> My story isn't any different from many on here, *wife cheated a few times over the course of our marriage including some ea's just through texts.
> Dday almost a year ago,* well the first anyhow took a few months for everything to come out.
> So we are working on building something new if we can, figured we owe it to the kids, the 20 years together I am sure you know the rest.
> I may ramble some just lots of random thoughts and observations, hard to speak to friends about this so here looks good.



You're going on 3 years past DDay.
Your WW is a SERIAL CHEATER - and now she wants to lie and minimize what she's done
You still have not even begun to heal and the resentment is building
She feels entitled to an expensive diamond ring? After all the cheating she's done?

I take back my post about keeping it low key. I don't know why you continue to stay with this serial cheater. You still don't even have a little trust in her. 

What is she doing to earn back your trust?

You're living in limbo and pain. I'm in the same boat as you, you've seen my post. But if I could not heal from the pain of betrayal and my WW was a serial cheater, I have no hesitation about walking away. My boys are old enough, they will recover. I don't owe her anything, and neither do you.


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Dyokemm said:


> " however I also believe that as a husband and father it is my job to sacrifice anything I have for the betterment and care of my family "
> 
> This is what my maternal grandfather did...even raised my grandmother's 'love' child from one of her A's during the late 50's.
> 
> ...


Dyokeman:
this is one of the most thought-provoking posts I've read since signing on to TAM some 14 months ago. Moving.....


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## nuclearnightmare (May 15, 2013)

Paladin said:


> Wow, we made it a whole 12 posts before someone attacked your masculinity. Helpful, huh? I can only assume the ones that insist on doing that get some kind of pleasure from it. Maybe saying ignorant crap like "man up" makes them feel like they are more masculine than you, and therefore better.
> 
> Your OP makes a good deal of sense. I have a few question, and I will leave some comments for you to consider.
> 
> ...


Love=

see Paladin paragraph above which I bolded. I also think it might help you to answer these questions in a post. despite your beliefs on sacrifice for your family you obviously remain in some distress regarding your spouse/marriage. I'd like to add a couple of my own:
would you say your WW is consistently remorseful? i.e. do you feel free to talk with her whenever you're feeling sad or down - e.g. to discuss your mind movies with her, that you wish they'd go away etc.?? or does she tend to want to cut things off, roll her eyes, tell you to get over it etc?
if you have not told her explicitly that "you love her but will never love her again like you did before", I think you should. and pay careful attention to how she reacts.


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## WalterWhite (Sep 14, 2012)

Paladin said:


> Wow, we made it a whole 12 posts before someone attacked your masculinity. Helpful, huh? I can only assume the ones that insist on doing that get some kind of pleasure from it. Maybe saying ignorant crap like "man up" makes them feel like they are more masculine than you, and therefore better.
> 
> Your OP makes a good deal of sense. I have a few question, and I will leave some comments for you to consider.
> 
> ...


Admonish a fool, and he will hate you.

Admonish a wise man, and he will thank you.

Paladin, please don't hate me too much.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Figured I would answer a few posts on here

I don't believe I am a martyr, martyrs usually blow themselves up or fall on their sword for a delusional concept I know what or more so who I may be sacrificing some of my happiness for.

I went to IC several years (4) ago for awhile insurance changed after a few months and I stopped, my WS went for a few sessions after Dday but stopped, we have not been to MC at all not covered.

For Dyokemm I grew up in a pretty dysfunctional situation and I would not allow this to become anything like that, it would end and I would see where it takes the family.

Along with that for those who think I have been sitting around moping and sad the last 2+ years you are wrong. Since Dday I have split our finances (we no longer have anything together except the house and the kids) of course assets are assets so everything would get split but I felt better not mixing our money together. 
I have worked very hard strengthening my relationship with my kids knowing that if this turns south a strong bond will be needed to help them through it. 

Lord you should be the site historian nice work on bringing back an old post. To clarify she has not asked for anything since dday anniversary or not, of course looking at it she did ask for a ring after she had cheated the first time( I didn't know see below) so you know cake eater(even though she says it was one time years ago).

Serial cheater? I don't know being everything the stuff years ago and the newest stuff all came out at once sure it is possible that is of course a sticking point with some of this. I guess more than once is a serial cheater but since dday she has done anything that even looks wrong.

Nuclear I like the "consistently remorseful" tag, I think many ws are not I know mine isn't, most of the time yes but like any selfish individual she slips back into that me first stuff.
Part of our problem is she struggles with how to do the things she needs to do part of it once again is that selfishness and the other is her emotional make up. She grew up in a house where sorry was supposed to fix everything and most things were rug swept (her father's years of cheating) so she is trying to learn a new skill.

We have had conversations about some of my changed feelings and what that may lead to if they don't come back etc, when those conversations come up she is very remorseful and emotional about her actions

Finally for all those little roosters squawking about my manhood or masculinity and that I am allowing my family to crap all over me let me leave you with this.
The nosiest creature in the barnyard is the little rooster trying to be like the big boys, he makes a lot of noise thinking the louder he is and the more he tells people how it really is that he can be a big boy too.
The biggest roosters don't need to degrade people or make a lot of noise, they know a few words given properly respectfully go along way.
Funny those little roosters make the most noise to hide their own shortcomings or when one of the big roosters decides they have heard enough and step on their fcuking necks. Squawk! Enjoy!


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## Paladin (Oct 15, 2011)

love=pain said:


> I went to IC several years (4) ago for awhile insurance changed after a few months and I stopped, my WS went for a few sessions after Dday but stopped, we have not been to MC at all not covered.


IC for both spouses and then MC is an essential component of R, and in my honest opinion, should be an essential component of every marriage.

I was seeing a counselor twice a week right after dday. My wife was seeing a counselor as well on her own at the same frequency, and after we began R a few months later, we started couples counseling with my IC. That brought the total number of times we saw counselors to 3x per week. We kept that pace for at least 6-8 months.

We were not covered either, and it really set us back financially, up to the point of choosing between utility payments and counseling/mental health, but the benefit to personal development and healing outweighed the stress of being completely broke 10 fold. 



love=pain said:


> ...Since Dday I have split our finances (we no longer have anything together except the house and the kids) of course assets are assets so everything would get split but I felt better not mixing our money together.


This is not a usual component of R. I am not saying you were wrong in any way for doing it, if you felt like it was necessary, then it was necessary. Was it a safety net for you? Do you think reducing what you had in common with her by splitting finances, etc... in any way hindered or continues to hinder your attempt to R? Do you think she may have felt, or still feels, like you were not/are not interested in R because you decided to distance yourself from her in this way? 



love=pain said:


> ...I like the "consistently remorseful" tag, I think many ws are not I know mine isn't, most of the time yes but like any selfish individual she slips back into that me first stuff.
> Part of our problem is she struggles with how to do the things she needs to do part of it once again is that selfishness and the other is her emotional make up. She grew up in a house where sorry was supposed to fix everything and most things were rug swept (her father's years of cheating) so she is trying to learn a new skill.


One of the benefits of major interpersonal work through counseling is being able to clearly identify problematic or dysfunctional behavior, outline an approach to correct that behavior, and learn how to effectively communicate and measure the progress of the work. 

It is absolutely mind boggling to realize just how differently we humans actually pick up and process information. You may feel that you have identified all of your needs, especially your needs when it comes to healing and R, and have communicated those needs to her, but without the framework in place to actually gauge if that happened/happening, you will have a hard time knowing for certain. 

If she does not clearly understand what your needs are, she can not ever meet them.

If you really want to give it a good effort, find the means to get into counseling, both of you, and once you have spent some significant amount of time in IC, transition to couples counseling with her, and see where you end up. 



love=pain said:


> Squawk! Enjoy!


Priceless!


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## roostr (Oct 20, 2012)

lordmayhem said:


> I would keep it low key.
> 
> We just had our 25th anniversary 5 days ago on the 9th. We just went out to dinner and neither of us were expecting anything - finances are tight right now, but next year, we'll be able to go on a proper vacation.


We had our 25th on the 9th also. Took her to dinner, had an argument and walked out. Didn't cost me a dime. Gave her a ring last year and she is paying for it lol. Hey whats right is right.


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## Cabsy (Mar 25, 2013)

Good advice, good discussion. Good luck with that dream...

And happy 25th in advance.


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## Dyokemm (Apr 24, 2013)

love=pain,

Thanks for the response.

For the record, I did not think you were creating the same situation for your family that my grandfather did for ours...I already had the sense from all of your posts that I have read that you would walk away long before it did that level of destruction to everyone involved.

I was just sharing MY reaction to your statement about sacrifice, which, as I have shared, I always get when a BS talks about staying in a M because of the kids.

That reaction comes from myself, and I don't want you to think I was implying that I thought you were doing the same.


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Paladin said:


> IC for both spouses and then MC is an essential component of R, and in my honest opinion, should be an essential component of every marriage.
> 
> I was seeing a counselor twice a week right after dday. My wife was seeing a counselor as well on her own at the same frequency, and after we began R a few months later, we started couples counseling with my IC. That brought the total number of times we saw counselors to 3x per week. We kept that pace for at least 6-8 months.
> 
> ...


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## love=pain (Nov 26, 2012)

Dyokemm said:


> love=pain,
> 
> Thanks for the response.
> 
> ...


Hey no problem your post was great, a warning as to what can happen to a family when emotional stress overwhelms them. Dysfunction doesn't happen overnight it creeps up and before you know it you are on Jerry Springer.


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