# keyloggers, fake profiles, spying?



## joeschmo (May 2, 2012)

posted this on someone else thread and I felt it was worth sharing with the forum as I have not seen this thread.

I have not read all the comments on this post but have been looking at quite a few on this forum that are similar and I hope I am not alone on this and wish someone would tell me that I am WRONG!!! if you are making fake profiles installing keylogger's and spying on your spouse. YOU ARE WRONG. if you do not trust your spouse then just confront him/her and stand by your arguement, if you have jealousy issues go get professional help. if your spouse is going to cheating websites...do I really need to spell it out? so to all the people who encourage these devious tactics, grow a set and grow up.


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## Peachy Cat (Apr 15, 2012)

Sometimes you need the proof before confronting an EA or PA. If you confront too soon, without proof, it can go underground and be even harder to find.

I would never endorse keyloggers, spying or invading privacy in a relationship; however, when red flags are flying high... you have to have proof or you'll go crazy wondering.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

So if you find evidence to make you think your wife is cheating, what will you do? Accept her word when she denies?


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Joe,
I think your right even though my wife recieves a text msg "I miss you" from a strange # then its probably nothing, and I'm sure she will tell me she wants to sleep with another man b/c it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all.

Look at the poll, theres good reason for it and its naive to think otherwise IMHO.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Cheates never deny or lie, they would be cheating if they did. Adultory isn't shameful at all and there is no reason to lie about it, no one gets hurt so be truthful and it will be all good with rainbows and unicorns.

As long as you can't prove it , then it never happend right?


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## joeschmo (May 2, 2012)

i never said take them at their word. but i dont think two wrongs make a right. 

you find proof or you suspect an affair based on whatever facts you have, so now you make a fake profile on a cheating site and add to the population of the site! once you find it confront and put an end to it or end the relationship cause most likely your spouse is cheating.

if your spouse is getting text's from a strange number...confront your spouse, find out whats going on from your spouse. dont settle for "its nothing" an explanation is in order at that point. your spouse should prove their point, if they take it offensively and choose not to prove it, maybe thats your answer.

maybe I am naive, but I trust my spouse and she has never given me a reason not to. throughout our relationship we have both expressed actions that the other was doing and we did not like it (friendships with opposite sex that could be mistaken for something else). it did not break up any friendship but we changed the way we interacted with them for the sake of the relationship. 

and to "the guy" you are extremely sarcastic and you misunderstood what i said. i hope you enjoy your rainbows and unicorns (that was sarcasm)

I do have communication problems (as do most people here)in my relationship but if something does not feel right I know I can say it without snooping or being devious. I am just amazed with how many people are spying on their spouse when it boils down to communication. i have never lied to my spouse or caught my spouse in a lie!

so to all the responses so far enjoy your snooping and devious ways, thats what works for you and thats the type of person you choose to be.

but thats my opinion and maybe I have too much faith in honesty, trust, rational and love.


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## Peachy Cat (Apr 15, 2012)

I, too, once had faith in honesty, trust, rational and love... and I got burned. I got burned badly; not once, not twice, but THREE times.

Call me cynical if you will. I like to think I learned from my mistakes. I was too trusting. I was too naive. 

Now, I take nothing for granted. I don't have a keylogger installed on my (shared with him) computer. I don't have a PI on speed dial. I've never made a fake profile (but that's one to remember, if I ever need it  ). I do, however, limit access to the Administrator controls on the computer. I know all his passwords and all his accounts (he has mine as well). 

It's not so much that I don't trust him (I've come a long way and actually do trust him again), but I know how easily deceived I am and I take precautions to protect myself.

Once bitten, twice shy, I guess.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

So you DO just blindly believe whatever your wife tells you. Wow. 

the-guy can't believe you're so naive. Frankly neither can I.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Whats wrong with protecting your self from lies, deciet, and adultory?
Ther are no secrets in a marriage so is it really spying?

Secrets need privacy, so if there are red flags in the marriage then there are some secrets, and those secrets to de be discovered so a betrayed spouse has the confidence and vlaidation that the next step they take is accurate.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me... Not gonna let that happen. So yes I installed a keylogger "after" I confronted. 

He doesn't know it's there, so I forced the transparency, since he wasn't offering it on his own.


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Sure you can talk to a spouse about an odd text, but will you ever get the truth? Maybe the spouse will tell you that "I love another man and he just wanted to know when we were going to have sex next" ......Ya ....sure thats the reality of it..right? No its all crap and the fact is cheaters lie and when suspicion arise you will be best served to investigate your spouses commitment and protect your self from further betrayal.


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

joeschmo said:


> maybe I am naive, but I trust my spouse and she has never given me a reason not to.


Welcome to my world 4 months ago. Then the red flags started popping up and my was sensing some things. You can only work with "I don't know, I don't know what I want, I don't know how I feel" for so long before getting proactive.

I found out my wife wasn't having an affair, but I found out some other things that were important for me to know that she lied about. I would'nt just snoop for the sake of it but when your gut says one thing and the spouse says another then you are a fool to not investigate. Though cheaters of the world would applaud your approach.


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## Numb in Ohio (Oct 31, 2011)

Just like the saying we hear from them " Oh, we are " Just Friends"..... I hate those 2 words.... 

When we know it's more than friends... Or they wouldn't of been hiding communication with them... DUH!


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## joeschmo (May 2, 2012)

the betrayal is there when you use these tactics. of course your spouse will not come out and say "yeah you caught me, ha ha ha" but fake profiles and keyloggers to me is a violation of privacy if i want to talk to a friend, family or tam and I my wife is reading my every word, that would piss me off when all she has to do is ask. And to those where this is a reoccuring issue...common denominator? and yes I have been cheated on by a girl before but it is kinda obvious especially if you pay attention to your relationships. 

i think taking those measures violates the trust. my wife knows all my passwords as well and I have never erased the history unless i was trying to suprise her with a gift.

my question has been answered and I learned that I am naive(ha ha). thanks I enjoy hearing others perspectives and i will agree to disagree


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## the guy (Aug 3, 2010)

Wait I still want to argue!!!!!!!


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## COguy (Dec 1, 2011)

Well I'm going to go on a limb and say you've never had a cheating spouse. I saw the crap, my wife denied it, and I trusted her.

The spying is what showed me that she flat out lied for a month and did way worse stuff than she admitted to.

I saw text messages to her old friend, confronted her, she said they were just friends and just talking. So if I listened to you, she'd still be sexting him.

Don't trust addicts when they are using, cheaters are addicts.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

joeschmo said:


> posted this on someone else thread and I felt it was worth sharing with the forum as I have not seen this thread.
> 
> I have not read all the comments on this post but have been looking at quite a few on this forum that are similar and I hope I am not alone on this and wish someone would tell me that I am WRONG!!! if you are making fake profiles installing keylogger's and spying on your spouse. YOU ARE WRONG. if you do not trust your spouse then just confront him/her and stand by your arguement, if you have jealousy issues go get professional help. if your spouse is going to cheating websites...do I really need to spell it out? so to all the people who encourage these devious tactics, grow a set and grow up.


I somewhat disagree, and this is my reasoning... 

If I am deeply involved with someone, to the degree of having shared finances, joint ownership in property, children together, etc., then I have more to consider that just what's best for me. I may have seen something that causes doubt, but I'm not so arrogant to assume that I'm always right. At the same time, it's normal for people to lie rather than caught if they *are* doing something wrong. 

Realistically, I'd ask, but if I continued to have a doubt, I would look more deeply, by whatever means necessary, to find reason to confirm one person's version of reality or the other's.

It's very easy to fall for lies, especially when breaking up means traumatizing children, but it's unfair to stay again and again if there are suspicious, unproven circumstances.


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## Hopefull363 (Feb 13, 2012)

My husband is welcome to snoop in any way. To me it shows he cares and I have nothing to hide.


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## joeschmo (May 2, 2012)

my wife and I have full access to eachothers emails, phones etc. im not saying you shouldnt take interest and be oblivious my argument was the fake profiles and keylogging for the reasons i stated before. 

I never said dont snoop and/or investigate my argument was specifically directed to those actions (fake profiles and keylogging) because... if you make a profile on a cheating site...you did just that! if you are install a virus to find out what your spouse is doing it is a vialation of privacy as well as trust. if you do not trust your spouse allready then you should probably be talking now or seeing a counselor to resolve these issues. 

yes people lie, but that says alot about the foundation of a relationship and the person you chose to live the rest of your life with and maybe yourself.

ok "the guy" i guess the arguement is back on


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Not sure I like the poll. Do I feel there are necessary situations that call for the use of such things? Yes I do. 

However, that being said, the thread on snooping/controlling is an excellent read in terms of what can happen if you let it overwhelm you. 

A better course of action than keyloggers and other such items is for a husband and wife to go "transparent", meaning that you both discuss all your accounts/cell phones/friends openly and agree that nothing good will come of hiding anything.

If transparency is in place and a spouse is violating it, that may be the time to consider using keyloggers and such.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

Po12345 said:


> Not sure I like the poll. Do I feel there are necessary situations that call for the use of such things? Yes I do.
> 
> However, that being said, the thread on snooping/controlling is an excellent read in terms of what can happen if you let it overwhelm you.
> 
> ...


If I could, I'd have hit the "Like" button four more times.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best (Feb 28, 2011)

joeschmo said:


> or caught my spouse in a lie!


because you never check.
you just take her word for everything?
lol


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Our MC told me, in front of my husband, to install GPS and spy software on his cell phone. And to come up with any other ways I needed to hold him true. He explained that my husband had a strong bond with his emotional affair partner, that the temptation to keep in contact was very powerful, that the spirit might be willing to reconcile with the spouse but the flesh was weak, so to speak. 

This is indeed what happened in the past, when I first discovered his emotional affair. He lasted about 3 to 5 weeks without contacting his AP. He then sent out a 'how are you doing' email. She sent one back. A week went by, and then he sent another email, etc. By 6 weeks I can see from these (three year old) emails that they were right back in communication as if there had never been a break. 

Here's the thing--I never once verified that he was not in contact. Three years went by this way. Three. Years. Then he accidentally texted me instead of her and the gig was up.

The MC said that the cell phone monitoring (which I also do via the bill) is also intended to reduce my anxiety, and gives my husband a chance to prove himself to me. I definitely find it reduces my anxiety. To ask my husband for his phone and see him hand it to me straight away (vs. before when he would say, let me just check my work emails while deleting their texts).

But you are right--you cannot snoop and monitor and spy forever. In 2012 there are an infinite number of ways to communicate--heck they could trade notes in a hollow log like they did in the old days. Instead, it is a short-term bridge to get the WS past the point of temptation (a window during which their bond is still so strong that it is very hard for them not to break "no contact"--it is a powerful habit and a wonderful fantasy that they long to return to). It is a way for the betrayed spouse to come out of the physical state of hyper vigilance (think of someone slamming a door behind you, making you jump; now think of feeling like that ALL DAY LONG for WEEKS).

I am already at the point where I sense I will be giving up monitoring; I go for longer and longer and longer periods in between. 

I DON'T look because I think he's cheating. I will have the divorce papers ready so fast if I ever think that again it will make everyone's minds spin--if I think he's cheating the monitoring will end, **forever.**


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## moxy (Apr 2, 2012)

joeschmo said:


> posted this on someone else thread and I felt it was worth sharing with the forum as I have not seen this thread.
> 
> I have not read all the comments on this post but have been looking at quite a few on this forum that are similar and I hope I am not alone on this and wish someone would tell me that I am WRONG!!! if you are making fake profiles installing keylogger's and spying on your spouse. YOU ARE WRONG. if you do not trust your spouse then just confront him/her and stand by your arguement, if you have jealousy issues go get professional help. if your spouse is going to cheating websites...do I really need to spell it out? so to all the people who encourage these devious tactics, grow a set and grow up.


No one endorses spying on your spouse as a way of life. That's foolish. When people suspect that an affair is going on and need to gather information to determine whether or not to confront a spouse about surreptitious behavior and dangerous deceit, then it is a useful tool. One has to determine whether one's spouse is or isn't trustworthy when that spouse behaves in a shady manner and so such a tool is useful for that. When a spouse continues to lie and not own up to the truth, that is, proves to be untrustworthy, the advice is generally "You can't trust your spouse so decide if you want to live without trust or want to split up" not "keep spying forever to see if your spouse ever makes a mistake". You, OP, are taking this advice out of context, I think. Put it in the right context and you'll see why it's recommended. No one should spy on a spouse unless there is a real reason to suggest something is amiss and if nothing is discovered, then the spying needs to be stopped and the spouse who is doing the spying needs to come clean about it in order to resolve the trust problem.


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## joeschmo (May 2, 2012)

maybe all of you are right, so i should install a key logger and sign up on a cheating site... just to make sure. 2nd time- so i have never caught my wife in a lie, could it be that she hasnt lied?


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## cory275 (Aug 11, 2011)

i think anyone who has been screwed over is gonna snoop. it just makes sense.... if you overdraw your bank account.. if you're smart, you get linked to some kind of overdraft protection... savings, credit card, line of credit... SOMETHING.

even if you havent been screwed over, you're stupid to "fully trust" your partner. with websites DESIGNED for married people to cheat and with things like facebook to check in on old "friends", the temptation is slapping married people in the face. shooo... if you feel like web cam sex is cheating, your partner doesnt even need to leave the house or hide receipts or spend any money to cheat. they can do it while wacking off at their desk.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

to further back moxy's point, there are plenty of books out there about healing after an affair, such as Not Just Friends by Shirley Glass (I had a copy but our MC handed my husband his own copy). You will see in there a chapter where she talks about the ways that spouses start to suspect that their partner is in an affair. Eventually, it leads to detective work (unless the affair is revealed beyond a shadow of a doubt, as it was in my case).

Why in every story does she talk about the spying? Well, that would be because cheaters are LIARS. They have created a fantasy--it isn't real love, or guess what, they'd ask for a divorce! No, they don't want to divorce! They want both the comfort of a marriage AND the fun of an affair. The spying comes about because cheaters NEVER tell the truth when confronted. Some even lie with a video showing their cheating playing right in front of them!

Once the cheating has been confirmed, most affair partners promise to return to the marriage. The problem is, by now, even though they are normal people who pay taxes and coach soccer and hold down good jobs, they have been lying to their spouses for so long (creating a secret private life) that this is what they continue to do. They don't want to give up the fantasy. People educated about the powerful fantasy draw of an affair learn (usually the hard way) that spouses do not simply "snap out of it" and return to the marriage--they might say it with words but they secretly betray those words by their actions.

If you've never had your spouse cheat on you, it is easy to say--oh, they fell in love with someone else, and they're not in love with you. Accept that and move on. It is nothing even CLOSE to as simple as that and I pray that anyone reading this who has not experienced infidelity never shares in that pain. Here is what it's like: I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You. That is, I'm still very bonded to you. I just don't have that feeling of passionate infatuation. That is what I feel for my affair partner.

Nearly everyone over a certain age has experienced infatuation with a boyfriend / girlfriend that cooled as you got to know them better. You "thought" you were in love, but you weren't. Not the deep kind of committed love that you should feel before marrying someone. Affairs are that infatuation kind of love. If you are the loyal spouse, you are not about to just "give up" and "let go" of your spouse who you vowed to keep as a life partner over some fantasy bubble they created to escape their problems (which is almost always how these things come about).

As I already said (and moxy did too) the "spying" serves very narrow purporses: confirm cheating in the face of a spouse's lying, and to hold a spouse, who has promised to reconcile, responsible for a short term to confirm that they are not lying and to reduce the loyal spouse's anxiety.

They say 80% of marriages survive an affair. You can think whatever you want about how you'd handle it, but you really don't know until you are there yourself.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

The use of keyloggers and other surveillance software on another adult without their permission is wrong when it's illegal at either the state or Federal level, which is usually the case in the U.S. Title III has been extended to interception of email and the majority of the Circuit Courts have ruled that it includes interspousal relations. A number of states have specific laws against it.

I understand that sometimes you 'gotta do what you gotta do' if you suspect infidelity, but attorneys are coming more and more to people like me to document the existence of this stuff on their client's computers.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> The use of keyloggers and other surveillance software on another adult without their permission is wrong when it's illegal at either the state or Federal level, which is usually the case in the U.S. Title III has been extended to interception of email and the majority of the Circuit Courts have ruled that it includes interspousal relations. A number of states have specific laws against it.
> 
> I understand that sometimes you 'gotta do what you gotta do' if you suspect infidelity, but attorneys are coming more and more to people like me to document the existence of this stuff on their client's computers.


Well, once lawyers are involved, it's beyond me why someone would spy. Spying at that point is about getting the best of someone in a divorce. That is not what moxy and I are talking about. That is about revenge; moxy and I are talking about saving marriages. And no, of course it doesn't always work. Of course there are marriages that were irreparably damaged, and marriages where the disloyal subconsciously wanted to get caught so the loyal would end the marriage. 

But a shocking percentage of affairs are neither of these; the disloyal found an opposite sex friendship that slipped into something more at a vulnerable point; it was not something that was going to work as a long term option; and the spouses reconcile because they have something that was worth fighting for, however much that was forgotten along the way.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Joe, you apparently have no red flags in your marriage. With no reason to suspect your wife has lied it makes no sense to try to snoop.

If you had suspicious activity but no proof would you preemptively divorce? What if there are kids? Or would you accept her stories as true? If the story was possibly true but iffy would you divorce or just accept itt?

At some point there is unresolvable suspicion. I would choose to be informed to make my decision.

Fwiw I learned I suck at determining if my wife is telling the full truth.

Having facts can protect one's rights in divorce in substantial lifelong areas including custody and finances. Why be victimized yet again for the sake of being nice or chivalrous?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Paulination (Feb 6, 2012)

joeschmo said:


> the betrayal is there when you use these tactics.


My wife used the "you betrayed me" tactic when confronting me right up until I threw her secret bank account in her face. I didn't betray a thing. If anything I demonstrated that my marriage was important enough for me to sneak home and pay money to install the truth on her laptop that I wasn't getting from her.

Betrayal? She spent time trashing our marriage to a friend on the lap top I just bought her with the high speed internet service I provide at 3 pm while lying in bed because she doesn't have to work. I'm getting pissed thinking about it. The only regret I have is the tear I shed while installing it because I couldn't believe my marriage had come to this. Guess what? My actions were completely justified.


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## Onmyway (Apr 25, 2012)

joeschmo said:


> maybe I am naive, but I trust my spouse and she has never given me a reason not to.


I trusted my wife more than I have ever trusted anyone else. We have gone through so much together during our 13 year relationship that I had no reason to ever doubt that she would always be behind me fully, and would never do anything to hurt me. She was the love of my life, and I had *absolute* trust for her.

Needless to say, she betrayed me, had an affair and destroyed all of that. I now doubt that I will ever be able to trust anyone again, at least to the extent that you seem to think that we should.


I confronted my wife three times before I finally got her to admit to the affair, and I only found absolute evidence by, you guessed it, spying.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I've said it before and I'll say it again. If I am expected to invest in arelationship; to forsake all others; to either spend all my free time with my partner or else account for it....and never mind what you sacrifice when you actually get married and live together......then dammit, I am owed the truth and when I am not getting it I will go about getting it whatever possible.

If my partner wants to think that SuzyQ is much nicer because she doesn't worry about those things when the the truth is that SuzyQ rubs his ego for a few hours and then goes back to her partner.....this is just crazy.

No I will not be led to buying a house or investing in my partner's business venture when he is cheating on me. 

Have you of naysayers ever heard of the expression "due diligence?" 

If you want to save the world from snoopers why don't you first start with employers who hold people's livelihood on the lines. Those people who are influencing legislators for the right to demand user names and passwords to a job applicant's social media memberships.....Facebook and all the others. 

why are you dogooders coming after the little guy. Do you prefer being ****ed over by Corporate America while **** over your own partner?

please answer me that.


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## joeschmo (May 2, 2012)

I am new to this forum and I have never suspected my wife of cheating. I have learned a lot of new terminology and my wife and I do have a Transparency (thanks po12345). 

I do not know what I would do if I was in that situation and I could turn to such "devious tactics" but I would like to think not. thanks for your input, I have learned much.


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## Ironhorse (Apr 25, 2012)

joeschmo said:


> the betrayal is there when you use these tactics. of course your spouse will not come out and say "yeah you caught me, ha ha ha" but fake profiles and keyloggers to me is a violation of privacy if i want to talk to a friend, family or tam and I my wife is reading my every word, that would piss me off when all she has to do is ask. And to those where this is a reoccuring issue...common denominator? and yes I have been cheated on by a girl before but it is kinda obvious especially if you pay attention to your relationships.
> 
> i think taking those measures violates the trust. my wife knows all my passwords as well and I have never erased the history unless i was trying to suprise her with a gift.
> 
> my question has been answered and I learned that I am naive(ha ha). thanks I enjoy hearing others perspectives and i will agree to disagree


Indeed you are on the ball about privacy issue! consider this though, my wife is having an EA. When I discovered this by helping to fix her computer, she never told me about the EA. Over the past month my life has been brutal to say the least. She deleted her history, most of the incriminating texts (a few hundreds), clean the trash, delete email messages, everything to cover her track. The only way I figured this our all of this out because I am quite fluent with the computer and Iphone, but It was hard work to recover deleted messages. I now know she is underground, because I realized she has another email account. So what do you say about this? Is a keylogger acceptable in this case? Oh, we been married for 20 years!


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Ironhorse said:


> Indeed you are on the ball about privacy issue! consider this though, my wife is having an EA. When I discovered this by helping to fix her computer, she never told me about the EA. Over the past month my life has been brutal to say the least. She deleted her history, most of the incriminating texts (a few hundreds), clean the trash, delete email messages, everything to cover her track. The only way I figured this our all of this out because I am quite fluent with the computer and Iphone, but It was hard work to recover deleted messages. I now know she is underground, because I realized she has another email account. So what do you say about this? Is a keylogger acceptable in this case? Oh, we been married for 20 years!


I've found it's pointless arguing with someone who's never been betrayed by their spouse / love-of-their-life / long-term marriage partner. Just about everyone says an affair is a deal breaker and they wouldn't bother to stop someone who wanted to leave them. They just can't conceive of a spouse who does everything physically possible to secretly cheat without lifting a finger to exit the marriage. It is just not something within the realm of their imagination. Let them cross that sad bridge when the come to it. Their eyes will be opened. Maybe they still choose not to snoop--but they will finally gain an understanding of what it's like to be in our shoes. Until then, wish for them the good fortune of never having to face the choice.


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## Ironhorse (Apr 25, 2012)

joeschmo said:


> I do not know what I would do if I was in that situation and I could turn to such "devious tactics" but I would like to think not.


Whats devious, cheating, lying and destroying a family or trying to bring transparency to a marriage?


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

Ironhorse said:


> Whats devious, cheating, lying and destroying a family or trying to bring transparency to a marriage?


more to the point--the thread starter says they have transparency. I certainly always have been an open electronic book as far as my husband is concerned.

So what happens in a marriage where one partner is transparent, and the other is not? Do not pass Go, do not collect $200, straight to divorce? Hardly.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

iheartlife said:


> Well, once lawyers are involved, it's beyond me why someone would spy. Spying at that point is about getting the best of someone in a divorce. That is not what moxy and I are talking about. That is about revenge; moxy and I are talking about saving marriages. And no, of course it doesn't always work. Of course there are marriages that were irreparably damaged, and marriages where the disloyal subconsciously wanted to get caught so the loyal would end the marriage.


I understand the importance of detecting a transgression early enough for reconciliation, so I'm extremely sympathetic to your perspective here.

I want to emphasize though that the point if no return is not when attorneys get involved; it's much earlier than that when the boundaries the law has set on a person's privacy are actually breached. When this is done with an electronic device, it leaves evidence that can be detected for a long time.

In the end, we all have to judge the risks versus benefits of any decision for ourselves, so I'm not trying to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do.

I'm just pointing out that on this subject, the 'tribal wisdom' of the internet is wrong, wrong, wrong. Spying on your spouse with a keylogger can in the worst possible case, result in a felony conviction and four year prison sentence. This has happened in Texas twice now.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> I understand the importance of detecting a transgression early enough for reconciliation, so I'm extremely sympathetic to your perspective here.
> 
> I want to emphasize though that the point if no return is not when attorneys get involved; it's much earlier than that when the boundaries the law has set on a person's privacy are actually breached. When this is done with an electronic device, it leaves evidence that can be detected for a long time.
> 
> ...


Yes and no....remember Deep Throat. If he had been discovered at the time, he would have probably been thrown in jail as well. But at least, he gave W & B enough info to ask the right questions.

And I am sure most Americans, old enough in any case, still breathe a sigh of relief.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> Yes and no....remember Deep Throat. If he had been discovered at the time, he would have probably been thrown in jail as well. But at least, he gave W & B enough info to ask the right questions.
> 
> And I am sure most Americans, old enough in any case, still breathe a sigh of relief.


--Not trying to be argumentative. Maybe I just need a second cup of coffee. I think I see the analogy with W.M. Felt from an ethical standpoint, but I believe the legal issues were very different.

It's been asserted more than once on TAM that joint property law trumps privacy law. It's been asserted more than once on TAM that marriage provides a _legal right _to any and all information where your spouse is concerned. 

I understand the importance of transparency in marriage a lot better now, then I did six months ago, but that transparancy is an ethical, *not *a legal right. When it comes to marriage, the two are not the same at all.

I guess in the end, the reason I keep pointing out that the use of keyloggers is often illegal is to salve my own conscience as an I.T. person.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

Octillo, but bosses check up on us as well. they read e-mails, sometimes as they come in and unabashedly comment on them. They engage in gossip with other people in the department to find out how you're doing. In some ways I agree with, a boss needs to be in control of his business /department / whatever. 

But then we can say the same about personal relationships. I don't see too many people balking over a parent's need to know who their child is interacting with. The opinion is divided between the married partners......but I think after reading a few my posts, my opinon about it is pretty clear.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

joeschmo said:


> i never said take them at their word. but i dont think two wrongs make a right.
> 
> you find proof or you suspect an affair based on whatever facts you have, so now you make a fake profile on a cheating site and add to the population of the site! once you find it confront and put an end to it or end the relationship cause most likely your spouse is cheating.
> 
> ...


There is no moral equivalence between cheating and a spouse trying to look out for the marriage. 

So no this is not two wrongs.

Marriage is about love and respect. Trust can be a by product. Blind trust is naive, lazy and ambivalent but mostly it is just flat not understanding the dynamics of an EA. You either care enough about your marriage or you don't to put in the work. 

That said, I am personally more likely to engage something like this head on and confront anything that looks suspicious. However, if I thought that transparency was broken then I would not be beyond using these means. My marriage is the #1 priority. Everything else takes a back seat. 

I definitley believe in transaparency. No secrets. lack of transparency would be a deal breaker for me. In this case I need look no further. My dealbreakers would likely be satified before going to these extreme measures. However, some folks, especially those with children feel they need more proof. I cannot critisize them for that.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> The use of keyloggers and other surveillance software on another adult without their permission is wrong when it's illegal at either the state or Federal level, which is usually the case in the U.S. Title III has been extended to interception of email and the majority of the Circuit Courts have ruled that it includes interspousal relations. A number of states have specific laws against it.
> 
> I understand that sometimes you 'gotta do what you gotta do' if you suspect infidelity, but attorneys are coming more and more to people like me to document the existence of this stuff on their client's computers.


My marriage would be more important than any such thing. If my spouse needed to hide behind said law then that in itself would be grounds for a divorce. Laws is not about right and wrong. Laws can be applied in ways that were never intended. Still other laws are ingnored. 

I confess the other day I crossed a double white line to avoid an accident. Was I wrong? This is much the same IMO.

I relaize that Marriage 2.0 is now a business partnership. That said then something has to give. If it is just a business protected by laws then one needs to treat their partner as a business partner. This I find absurd.


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## iheartlife (Apr 4, 2012)

ocotillo said:


> --Not trying to be argumentative. Maybe I just need a second cup of coffee. I think I see the analogy with W.M. Felt from an ethical standpoint, but I believe the legal issues were very different.
> 
> It's been asserted more than once on TAM that joint property law trumps privacy law. It's been asserted more than once on TAM that marriage provides a _legal right _to any and all information where your spouse is concerned.
> 
> ...


I get what your saying about the ethical / legal distinction.

I also take your point that in the digital age, traces remain that can last for a very long time. In other words, there weren't any lawyers in sight when the snooping began, and the snooping ends, but the evidence of long-ago past snooping remains, sufficient for a conviction


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> --Not trying to be argumentative. Maybe I just need a second cup of coffee. I think I see the analogy with W.M. Felt from an ethical standpoint, but I believe the legal issues were very different.
> 
> It's been asserted more than once on TAM that joint property law trumps privacy law. It's been asserted more than once on TAM that marriage provides a _legal right _to any and all information where your spouse is concerned.
> 
> ...


As an I.T. person you know then that there is no right to privacy when using company computers. In fact you can be dismissed for going to the wrong websites. It is general practice to have software in place to monitor activity.

So too then a couple can have transparency.

*Cool, let's add this to the pre-nup then. Now we are all legal. *

While we are at it let's add a non disclosure agreement. 

Also a two week notice expectation.

The marriage should be contingent on a background check and a random drug screening.

Using marital assets for extramarital affairs is grounds for dismissal.

Finances would then need expense reports to be approved by the other spouse. Are we having fun yet?

Wedding rings to be displayed at all times. Extramrital affairs could be treated like insider trading.

So all of this is very cute and interesting but for many of us marriage is a serious thing. More serious than these types of laws. It is interesting that the adultry laws are now off the books and yet there are these survelince laws. So them per the law it is not wrong to cheat, but is wrong to survey to protect a marriage. Therefore one can not use the law as their moral compass.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

NextTimeAround said:


> Octillo, but bosses check up on us as well. they read e-mails, sometimes as they come in and unabashedly comment on them. They engage in gossip with other people in the department to find out how you're doing. In some ways I agree with, a boss needs to be in control of his business /department / whatever.


Yes. Employers have a legal right to monitor the electronic communications of their employees on company owned equipment, provided certain conditions are met. The most important of these is *prior disclosure* at the time of hire.

When we're talking about surveillance software seruptiously installed on an unsuspecting person's machine we're talking about something else entirely. (And the lack of prior disclosure is arguably the whole point in doing it.)




NextTimeAround said:


> But then we can say the same about personal relationships. I don't see too many people balking over a parent's need to know who their child is interacting with. The opinion is divided between the married partners......but I think after reading a few my posts, my opinon about it is pretty clear.


Minors do not have the full range of legal rights that adults do. You do under most circumstances, have a right to monitor the communications of your minor child. This changes when they reach the age of majority and become competent in the eyes of the law though.

A third legal use of surveillance software is in correctional facilities. Were it not for these three legitimate uses, the publishers probably would have gone out of business years ago.*

The publishers of this genre of software that actually reside on U.S. soil further protect themselves by clearly warning you beforehand that you do not have a legal right to use it on your spouse:












*Do you remember a piece of software called, 'MyNorris'? The software would alert you by text or email when a known porn site was accessed from the target computer. The company made a huge mistake however by specifically advertising it as a tool for wives to keep tabs on their husbands and the company vanished pretty quickly in a sea of litigation.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> So all of this is very cute and interesting but for many of us marriage is a serious thing. More serious than these types of laws. It is interesting that the adultry laws are now off the books and yet there are these survelince laws. So them per the law it is not wrong to cheat, but is wrong to survey to protect a marriage. Therefore one can not use the law as their moral compass.


I sense your frustration here and I'm sorry. Like I said, in the end everyone has to assess the risks versus benefits of their decisions for themselves.

The only reason I've pointed out the legal aspect of the equation is to counter the notion that there are *no* risks. 

When things get ugly and one spouse suspects the other of spying, their attorney may come to someone like me to document the existence of this software. If it exists, we'll tell them what it is and when it was installed. Their attorney will contact the publisher and they'll fall all over themselves to provide purchase information. This is another way the publishers protect themselves and they disclose the fact that they intend to fully cooperate with legal inquiries up front. 

I don't personally understand why anyone would want to hand a cheating spouse a potential weapon like this, but then I've never been in that position and can only guess what it must be like.


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## donders (May 9, 2012)

Ironhorse said:


> Indeed consider this though, my wife is having an EA. When I discovered this by helping to fix her computer, she never told me about the EA. Over the past month my life has been brutal to say the least. She deleted her history, most of the incriminating texts (a few hundreds), clean the trash, delete email messages, everything to cover her track. The only way I figured this our all of this out because I am quite fluent with the computer and Iphone, but It was hard work to recover deleted messages. I now know she is underground, because I realized she has another email account. So what do you say about this? Is a keylogger acceptable in this case? Oh, we been married for 20 years!


I don't think a keylogger is acceptable in your case.

She repeatedly lied to you and continues to cover up her tracks.

Spying on her and gathering evidence won't solve the problem, nothing will.

The only acceptable tactic is tell her you know everything and the marriage is OVER.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> I sense your frustration here and I'm sorry. Like I said, in the end everyone has to assess the risks versus benefits of their decisions for themselves.
> 
> The only reason I've pointed out the legal aspect of the equation is to counter the notion that there are *no* risks.
> 
> ...


What you sense is not frustration on my part. It is the assumption that someone is so weak as to let anything like what you are suggesting influence their actions they feel they need to take to save their marriage. Good input. Good to know. But seriously if this is going to deter someone that is sad indeed.

I am not a Betrayed Spouse. I was the one in the EA. My wife saved our marriage by looking at my emails. This happened almost 15 years ago. We have been married 35 years now.

Realize that most of us would already have enough information to terminate the relationship. However, if children are involved you can undsertand that this is their whole life. They feel the need to validate. If there is a prosecutor who feels that they need to crush someone who is trying to save their marriage then so beit.

I am suggesting that if one has a pre-nup they include this as well.

I understand where you are coming from on the risks. There are all sorts of risks.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

donders said:


> I don't think a keylogger is acceptable in your case.
> 
> She repeatedly lied to you and continues to cover up her tracks.
> 
> ...


I agree that failure to be transaprent should be a deal breaker and obviate the need to take things much further.


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

Entropy3000 said:


> What you sense is not frustration on my part. It is the assumption that someone is so weak as to let anything like what you are suggesting influence their actions they feel they need to take to save their marriage. Good input. Good to know. But seriously if this is going to deter someone that is sad indeed.


Maybe 'frustration' was a poor word choice, but frankly that's how the temptation to resort to something illegal comes across to me when there are so many legal things a person can do first. Why kill a fly with a shotgun if a folded piece of newspaper will do? 

There is nothing illegal about a simple proxy server in the home. There's nothing illegal about enabling logging and examining the resultant logs in a firewall appliance or router. If a suspicious pattern emerges, there's nothing illegal about a heart to heart on the subject of transparency and if that doesn't work right away, there's nothing illegal about a service like Facebook, Gmail, Twitter, etc. becoming temporarily 'unavailable.' And there's nothing illegal about fake profiles in and of themselves. 

I actually haven't advocated weakness or doing nothing and I've repeatedly said that sometimes you 'gotta do what you gotta do' when it comes to these things.


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## Entropy3000 (May 11, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> Maybe 'frustration' was a poor word choice, but frankly that's how the temptation to resort to something illegal comes across to me when there are so many legal things a person can do first. Why kill a fly with a shotgun if a folded piece of newspaper will do?
> 
> There is nothing illegal about a simple proxy server in the home. There's nothing illegal about enabling logging and examining the resultant logs in a firewall appliance or router. If a suspicious pattern emerges, there's nothing illegal about a heart to heart on the subject of transparency and if that doesn't work right away, there's nothing illegal about a service like Facebook, Gmail, Twitter, etc. becoming temporarily 'unavailable.' And there's nothing illegal about fake profiles in and of themselves.
> 
> I actually haven't advocated weakness or doing nothing and I've repeatedly said that sometimes you 'gotta do what you gotta do' when it comes to these things.


I almost went down the road you are mentioning. I probably would opt for this approach if any myself.
So we can agree here that there are things possible that get the job done at less risk. The 80 / 20 if nothing else.

Like I said I am unlikely to go to the extremes on this stuff personally. I leave the detailed snopping expertise to other who have felt the need to do so.

If there was false transparency I would only need a small amount of information that showed there was another unknown account. That would be enough for me. I would have every right to make sure my private lan was protected from malicious activities.
If I happened to catch my spouse doing something secret, so be it. They said it was not them after all. Someone must have hacked in.


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## Po12345 (Apr 28, 2011)

Let me add a little more to this discussion...

Up until 1 year ago, I had the perfect marriage. I used to close my eyes and thank God that I didn't have the problems that many of the other people I know have in their marriages, that my wife was 100% honest with me, that we had no secrets, that she loved me heart and soul, was in love with me, and vice versa. I was blessed beyond belief...

A bad two weeks, my wife acting different, us not talking for two days, led to her saying "I don't know if I love you anymore". I couldn't figure out what was happening, but I started snooping, and then I found out a LOT. She had been planning to leave the marriage for some time. She had incredibly unhappy, despite telling me different. She had gone to see an ex boyfriend while visiting family 2000 miles away. Later I found a maxed out credit card that she had lied to me about, still later that she was still friends with this guy on Facebook and she was hiding it from me, lying to me again, and again...

So, presently:

My life feels like it is ruined, I do not sleep well at night, I have difficulty getting out of bed in the morning, focusing at work, constant pain in my chest (feels like my heart breaking), and I'm so clingy that, even though my wife and I are trying to work it out, my own behavior seems to be pushing us to the point of fracture now. I take anti depressants and anti anxiety medications, I hate the job I used to love, and on and on... instead of enjoying life I question why the f I'm even here anymore 

So anyone in here that talks about how they would NEVER install a key logger, etc, or that it is so wrong, I was in your shoes at one time. I have still never used one but I do snoop on her phone and computer, not very often but maybe once every couple of months. It absolutely SUCKS, because I fear I will never trust anyone that way ever again. Something beautiful was completely ruined, like taking a 120,000 dollar sports car and smashing it into a wall at 100 mph... you have to take a ton of time and effort just to get it back to where it at least LOOKS like it resembles that same wonderful car, but it will never be the same. 

I don't want to snoop, I wish I could break the habit, but now I'm stuck... the bottom line is that broken trust breaks EVERYTHING...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

joeschmo said:


> if your spouse is getting text's from a strange number...confront your spouse, find out whats going on from your spouse.


 :rofl:


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

joeschmo said:


> i never said take them at their word. but i dont think two wrongs make a right.


That`s just it though, if you base your relationship on a foundation of transparency then accessing your wife's e-mails/phone isn`t "wrong".

I still have a hard time understanding why so many spouses freak when their SO uses their phone or e-mail.

It wouldn`t be "wrong" in my relationship because there is nothing that is off limits to my wife.

I just don`t get it.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

I don't believe in entrapment (false IDs), but you better bet I believe in monitoring the keystrokes and calls/texts of my SPOUSE. Their actions directly affect me and my family so I darn will monitor if I suspect something is harming us.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

joeschmo said:


> the betrayal is there when you use these tactics. of course your spouse will not come out and say "yeah you caught me, ha ha ha" but fake profiles and keyloggers to me is a violation of privacy if i want to talk to a friend, family or tam and I my wife is reading my every word, that would piss me off when all she has to do is ask.


why?
What are you saying you wouldn`t say in front of your wife?
My wife can read my e-mails all she wants.
Couldn`t care less and I certainly wouldn`t consider it a "betrayal".
That`s ridiculous.



> And to those where this is a reoccuring issue...common denominator? and yes I have been cheated on by a girl before but it is kinda obvious especially if you pay attention to your relationships.


You are naive.

I`ve been a cheater, I`ve rarely ever been caught, I`m sad to say I`m damn good at it.
I can lie, and deceive better than anyone I know.
My wife knows I have this ability.
I know she`s a very cunning little wench herself, it`s part of why I married her.

I trust no one explicitly.

Read this forum for a little while.
The deception, and lying, and tech capability for cheating will make you nauseous.
Many of these people have been jumping from affair to affair behind their spouses backs for years never being caught.

Affair Discussion Forum • Index page

"Obvious", that`s a riot.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

A marriage is not a marriage if you can't be completely honest with each other and share what you're saying to others with each other.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

Talk about a no-brainer poll. :rofl:

It would even be more lopsided in the Coping With Infidelity Forum.


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## lordmayhem (Feb 7, 2011)

ocotillo said:


> When things get ugly and one spouse suspects the other of spying, their attorney may come to someone like me to document the existence of this software. If it exists, we'll tell them what it is and when it was installed. Their attorney will contact the publisher and they'll fall all over themselves to provide purchase information. This is another way the publishers protect themselves and they disclose the fact that they intend to fully cooperate with legal inquiries up front.


Just curious, how many attorneys have actually come to you to document the existence of computer monitoring software so that their clients can use this information against their spouse? I'm guessing quite a few, yes?


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## ocotillo (Oct 17, 2011)

lordmayhem said:


> Just curious, how many attorneys have actually come to you to document the existence of computer monitoring software so that their clients can use this information against their spouse? I'm guessing quite a few, yes?


Counting smartphones, slightly more than once a month on average. I'm not usually told the reasons, but I would guess that about half of them are issues with spouses and significant others. 

If you want to read something more authoritative than semi-anonymous internet banter, there's a female attorney on the East coast who runs an I.T. forensic business. She's co-written papers and conducted seminars on the subject:

http://www.senseient.com/articles/pdf/Electronic_Peephole.pdf


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