# He kissed another woman...



## tobio

I didn't see this one coming... But maybe I should have...

OH told me this morning that we "needed to talk." He never says this so I knew it was something serious. He went on to tell me that he kissed another woman and he had to tell me, he couldn't keep it a secret from me.

It happened two days ago. He has assignments at different sites, and for the last four weeks he has been at the same place. He has been chatting about it after work, has said it is a nice place to work, good atmosphere and friendly staff (hmm...)

He has mentioned a few times a particular female member of staff. He has been getting a ribbing apparently because this woman has a crush on him, and the manager has been teasing him, about has X made him a cuppa this morning, stuff like that, and also from other staff who say she has been asking about him. I gather also she comes out to talk to the guys.

Anyway... He told me it was their last day there on Friday, and they were working in the same room she works. She was chatting to them a lot of the day, and told him to come and say goodbye before he left. So he did, and then...

He said it was "just a kiss". She reached for a hug, and went to kiss him. He said he didn't realise what was happening until she did it, and as soon as he did, he pulled away, saying that this can't continue. He's felt really bad about it, and it hit me for six- even though we've been having our troubles recently, one thing I was sure of was that he wouldn't look elsewhere. I'm still stunned.

He has been ready to talk about it, but my spidey sense is telling me he's not telling me the whole truth. My gut is usually spot on and something is not as he says, but I can't work out what. I am fairly to almost certainly sure he hasn't slept with her or anything inbetween- of course I have no proof but working out his day schedule tells me he wouldn't have had time, and he was back on time that day.

He let on a little later that they had a text exchange on Friday evening. I asked how she got his number, he said he didn't know, she could have got it from any of his work colleagues. THEN upon realising that bit didn't play out right, it turns out he texted her first, she gave him her number. He says he texted after coming home after drinks with his friend, she replied and then that was it. 

I demanded to see his phone- he wasn't going to let me at first but I pressed him and he did, though he sat with me the whole time like he was checking what I was doing. There aren't any calls between them and no other texts but he has deleted the text history from before yesterday. I couldn't see anything else on there but my gut says he has deleted something.

They are also friends on facebook. I had noticed he was going on FB more the last couple of days, he is on there but very rarelt if ever uses it. It says she accepted HIS friend request from Thursday, he mentioned she had found him on there so he's lying about that. He said something about they'd been chatting on there but only stuff like saying hello- bear in mind he never mentioned ANY of this and he is usually quite open about stuff.

He has taken the babies (the older ones are with their dad this weekend) and gone to his mums for a bit. He was pressing me, asking how I felt, had he messed everything up, what did I want to know, but I don't know how I feel much really. I don't feel like I know everything but I don't know what he's not telling me, even though he swears he isn't hiding anything else. I just wanted some space.

He claims not to realise what was going on, as far as he was concerned she was just being friendly... I was actually teasing him about it because it was obvious from what he said that she liked him, and I could tell he was flattered and that he fancied her too, though it (stupidly) didn't bother me. He said it was just an ego boost for him, he doesn't really know why he did it, but then tries to downplay it like it was nothing and nothing happened. He is really caring and worried about my feelings (ahem!) until I start pressing him that he is hiding something else, and he starts to get impatient. Either he's frustrated that I don't believe there IS nothing else, or he feels I'm close to finding out something he doesn't want me to know.

I just don't know what to do now. Part of me feels like it's "only" a kiss, not worth worrying much about, but then part of me is really angry that I have been fighting for his affections, that it's a gigantic effort just to get him to sit next to me, yet he'll happily wrap his arms around her and kiss her.

The other thing- I opened her facebook page up. there's loads of photos but it's not clear which one is her as her profile pic is a countryside scene and the pics aren't tagged much. He won't tell me which one is her and can't understand why I want to know but I just do- to compare us I suppose. He says he doesn't fancy her but I still need to know what I'm dealing with. He described her a little and it looks like she is one of the girls in the photo who looks rather like me... I don't know what that means.

Any thoughts welcome because I don't really know what to think...


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## Syrum

My thoughts are that he has been persuing her.

He seems very self indulgent. He is treating you worse and worse, and he keeps going because you keep taking this.

My bet is your reaction to this is a test from him, to see if he can keep behaving this way and get away with it.

You may have two small children with him, but you still do have better life options then to be with a guy who treats you so callously.

You deserve much better and so do your children.


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## Sanity

A few people here will recommend MC but it really depends on what you can tolerate. For me infidelity is a deal breaker I don't care what the circumstances were.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## OOE

An affair isn't a bad choice made when a married person decides to sleep with someone that they aren't married to.

It's a bad choice made when they decide to do something inappropriate (flirting, texting, chatting online, phone calls, lunch, drinks, whatever) with someone that's not their spouse. This leads to a string of self-rewarding behavior that can eventually lead to a PA.

He might not have initiated the flirting, however he certainly participated on an inappropriate level for a married man, and you should draw a clear line in the sand. It's likely that this is now an EA, and you have your work cut out for you.


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## Conrad

Tobio,

Men are clueless as a rule.

I'm not sure what age you and your husband are, but - currently - I know things are "strained" at your house.

He's likely pretty good at work. I'm sure this is an attractive young woman. And, it feels great to have attractive young women admire you.

He stands at the beginning of what we refer to as "the fog".

If you have complete access to his phone, passwords, etc. it's likely ok for them to "be friends".

Him being nervous sounds like he's feeling a bit guilty.

But, his nervousness "could be" the idea that he wants to tell you enough to calm things down - but he's nervous that he won't have the ego boost of her attention.

He did not, however, have to tell you he kissed her.

If you do allow them to remain in contact, there must be no more deletions of communication. And, you can assure this by comparing phone company text history with his actual phone.


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## typewittyusernamehere

There was a line that was crossed when they kissed, he should no longer have her as a Facebook friend, or any other communication with her. I am sure this girl knows he is married. If it were me, I would contact her, & let her know that I didn't appreciate her actions. Just my opinion. Good luck.


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## SimplyAmorous

I certainly wouldnt throw him under the bus -just yet. Him coming to you within 2 days of his wayward deed , when he could have easily gotten away with it, this is something to consider. (I bet many would not kiss & TELL -as it would only invite chaos in their marraiges). 

I would count this part as a VERY HEALTHY THING. Our confessions can KEEP us accountable. (Unless of coarse he had an ulterier motive for doing so -someone seen it & he was fearful it would get back to you --MOTIVE is everything )

BUT there IS something that bothers me ALOT ......

He LIED about him texting her 1st , He hesitated when you wanted to see his phone AND he also would not show you which pic is hers -YOU deserve this much as his hurting wife. 

Personally, for me, THOSE THINGS would bother me MORE than a slipped kiss. But that is me. I would have to agree with you, that he IS probably hiding more of his feelings -because of those 3 things. 

If we are ALL openly honest with ourselves , generally we enjoy a little attention from the opposite sex, this does not make us cheaters, at least I don't think it does. It IS an ego -boost, especially in Mid Life. Nice to feel we still have it "goin' on" just a little. And if the attention is coming from someone a little younger & hotter, even more of an ego boost. It just is what it is. We are still married, but we are not dead. 

Yes, he crossed the line, but it is the hesitation of honesty , what is behind this, that needs unearthed.


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## Fordsvt

The fact he told you very soon after is good. The way it happened-not so good!
He needs to transfer to a different Dept. from this gal who seems to like married men. Give him a chance and talk it out. 
Perhaps a new job is in order. The fact even the Manager is egging her on shows how Un-Professional of a work place this is.


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## typewittyusernamehere

Fordsvt said:


> The fact he told you very soon after is good. The way it happened-not so good!
> He needs to transfer to a different Dept. from this gal who seems to like married men. Give him a chance and talk it out.
> Perhaps a new job is in order. The fact even the Manager is egging her on shows how Un-Professional of a work place this is.


:iagree:


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## tobio

SA you have got it- it is more the "what's behind it" than what happened.

Ok so I feel the fact it was only a kiss makes it easier to deal with. I think he is playing it down though; the way he explained it, they were alone together because he chose to make it like that, he says she hugged him but he didn't realise what was happening... He was obviously up close enough for her to do that- if indeed that is how it happened. I just don't buy that he didn't realise what was going on until they kissed. If he did instigate it or it was more than he said... well I'd have more of a problem then.

He said he was flattered by the attention, and what happened was the result of a build-up for the weeks he was there, yet he goes on to say he doesn't fancy her and he just thought she was being flirty, implying it was all something that happened TO him. My money is on he had more of a role in it than he's letting on and I feel extremely uncomfortable thinking about that, that he may have pursued her. To add to the uneasy feeling, he texted her after supposedly her giving him her number after they kissed. 

He said on Friday that he didn't think much of it (!), but on Saturday, we had a really nice day, he said I was being so sweet and caring, and he couldn't stop thinking about it then.

He's done working there now and he only met her when he started there four weeks ago, and won't see her again through work. Btw he's 30, this girl is 35 I think, and if it's the girl I think it is from the photos, quite pretty. He still won't tell me which one she is though. And I'm still wary about the issue with the phone- just off to see if I can check his calls and texts online to see if I can see anything on there that wasn't on his phone.


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## tobio

She has just sent a private message to him on FB. I can't get into his FB directly but I accessed his hotmail and read the notification. It's just a "good weekend?" but all of a sudden I feel REALLY angry.

I can't access his phone bill online so can't check that yet.

My instincts tell me to keep a quiet eye on things. I'd be interested to see if he replies to her, and more so if he tells me.

The other option is to demand complete access. I have his hotmail password but not his FB or phone provider ones. Any opinions on what the best approach is?

I also feel very tempted to contact her with a brief message of "get lost" (or along those lines!) but not sure if it's worth the hassle?

Am thinking there seems to be quite a bit going on for something that he purports was half a kiss...


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## Therealbrighteyes

There is more going on. If he is nervous at you looking at his messages and also refuses to tell you who she is, he is hiding quite alot. 
I too would not be ready to toss him under the bus just yet but like you said, your gut is telling you something is off. Most womens gut instincts are right. 
If you want to know what is really going on, you could purchase a voice activated recorder which costs about $50 and you would hide it in his car. That would allow you to hear any conversations he has, and particularly if he is having any with her. Emails, texts, fb is pretty easy to delete and he has already proven that he is in fact deleting these things. On top of that, after the kiss happened HE requested to friend her on fb. Something is off.


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## Conrad

tobio said:


> She has just sent a private message to him on FB. I can't get into his FB directly but I accessed his hotmail and read the notification. It's just a "good weekend?" but all of a sudden I feel REALLY angry.
> 
> I can't access his phone bill online so can't check that yet.
> 
> My instincts tell me to keep a quiet eye on things. I'd be interested to see if he replies to her, and more so if he tells me.
> 
> The other option is to demand complete access. I have his hotmail password but not his FB or phone provider ones. Any opinions on what the best approach is?
> 
> I also feel very tempted to contact her with a brief message of "get lost" (or along those lines!) but not sure if it's worth the hassle?
> 
> Am thinking there seems to be quite a bit going on for something that he purports was half a kiss...


If he wants to keep her as a "friend", complete access is a must.

His choice.

If he won't agree? No contact letter.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> If he wants to keep her as a "friend", complete access is a must.
> 
> His choice.
> 
> If he won't agree? No contact letter.


I respectfully disagree. Any person who is trying to drive a wedge between their marriage is NO friend of their marriage and therefore needs to be cut out like a tumor. It appears he already has feelings for her, liked the attention, etc. etc. If he hasn't already crossed another line, being "friends" with someone who has no issue trying to hook up with a married man is a very very bad idea. She needs to take a hard stance on this. She isn't the one who needs to send a NC letter, he is. Nothing good can come of being friends with her, nothing.
We dealt with a mate poacher like this early on in our marriage. Also a co-worker who was his "friend". She had much bigger ideas. The main one being my husband and my life. She wanted what I had. He was really clueless and only thought of her as a friend but one day I found out what she was up to and well, things didn't work out for her. Men and women can be friends. Women who have stars in their eyes about married men, cannot.


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## tobio

I don't know if he wants to still be friends with her on FB or not. We've been together a lot of today for various reasons, we've talked a little but as of right now, officially I'm still "thinking things over." He's seemingly petrified I'm going to throw him out, he's cried three times today already and they're only the second time I've ever seen him cry in four years. Once was after we'd had a bit of a heavy talk earlier, and the other two were after we dropped one of the little ones off at the grandparents and he started talking about if it gets easier to leave a child (ie when you have weekend contact and you have to drop the child back off at the end of it.)

I still need to get to the bottom of what he is still hiding. He's gone out for an hour with his friend, so knowing what he's like when he's had a beer, I'm going to talk to him. I'm sure it's something to do with his phone, the only things I could think of were that he's deleted messages or calls, or possibly he has some photos or something like that I hadn't thought of previously. I hate having to do this- I'm really hoping I'm barking up the wrong tree and there IS nothing else because if there is, it's going to mean a serious think about things.

Oh and I messaged her on FB. I was going to tell her to get lost but I opted for the woman-to-woman tell-me-the-truth approach. Maybe it wasn't the best thing to do but it's done now.

I'm also compiling a list of things to do with him that include access to all passwords for things such as FB/phone account and access to his phone, no contact from him, and also total honesty, ie telling me straightaway if he has ANY kind of contact from her.

I plan to ask when he gets back for total lay-it-on-the-line honesty. I can't shake this gut feeling that something is still off; like I said, he seems to be offloading an awful lot of guilt for what he describes as a half-a-second kiss, and a fair bit has followed to say there was nothing in it: texting and FB befriending all in the space of one day besides anything else I don't know about.


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## Therealbrighteyes

tobio said:


> I don't know if he wants to still be friends with her on FB or not. We've been together a lot of today for various reasons, we've talked a little but as of right now, officially I'm still "thinking things over." He's seemingly petrified I'm going to throw him out, he's cried three times today already and they're only the second time I've ever seen him cry in four years. Once was after we'd had a bit of a heavy talk earlier, and the other two were after we dropped one of the little ones off at the grandparents and he started talking about if it gets easier to leave a child (ie when you have weekend contact and you have to drop the child back off at the end of it.)
> 
> I still need to get to the bottom of what he is still hiding. He's gone out for an hour with his friend, so knowing what he's like when he's had a beer, I'm going to talk to him. I'm sure it's something to do with his phone, the only things I could think of were that he's deleted messages or calls, or possibly he has some photos or something like that I hadn't thought of previously. I hate having to do this- I'm really hoping I'm barking up the wrong tree and there IS nothing else because if there is, it's going to mean a serious think about things.
> 
> Oh and I messaged her on FB. I was going to tell her to get lost but I opted for the woman-to-woman tell-me-the-truth approach. Maybe it wasn't the best thing to do but it's done now.
> 
> I'm also compiling a list of things to do with him that include access to all passwords for things such as FB/phone account and access to his phone, no contact from him, and also total honesty, ie telling me straightaway if he has ANY kind of contact from her.
> 
> I plan to ask when he gets back for total lay-it-on-the-line honesty. I can't shake this gut feeling that something is still off; like I said, he seems to be offloading an awful lot of guilt for what he describes as a half-a-second kiss, and a fair bit has followed to say there was nothing in it: texting and FB befriending all in the space of one day besides anything else I don't know about.


I am very sorry to say this but my gut is telling me he was testing the waters with the "kiss" story as a barometer of your reaction. 
As I posted, I too went through a co-worker "mate poacher" situation. She also kissed him. Many were there and he recoiled from her and told her to get away. He told me right afterwards. Zero guilt because he had done nothing wrong. My situation sounds alot like your husband's story. So why does he feel guilty? Something is off.


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## betrayed2011

i agree with everyone... there's some really good sharing here.

my boyfriend which i'm trying to break free, and pretend nothing is going on is hard to do, i know for myself i'm going through a ton of emotions, living under the same roof knowing he's cheating, he's constantly on line, and texting, it drives me mad

then at night everything is nice and cozy because he's home and has a bed here, or because i'm here makes his world perfect.

he disappears no communication 7 hours at at time, and it's getting worse, his tex to me, he has no compassion or care of how i'm doing at all.

the mixed feelings i get, are, hope because he's home at night and things are going okay, then i feel like i'm the bad and nutty person by asking simple questions like "oh you going out" reply ya i'll see you later... it's a cycle of feelings and i know i need to get out of this relationship, but, he owes me money (i know i'm on the verge of considering it a loss)

i'm distraught, confused, can't think straight, think i'm useless and unattractive and so on, i need help with grief and loss and i know it'll help me get through this...

self care is very important, you being happy will bring happiness all around you too, wish you all the best, stay strong and liberated, you can do it!


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## Catherine602

Conrad said:


> If he wants to keep her as a "friend", complete access is a must.
> 
> His choice.
> 
> If he won't agree? No contact letter.


His choice surely not. A married man does not engage in kissing another woman, and he cannot expect his wife to take it lightly. Niether should he expect to have any further contact. Cheating is a matter of allowing yourself to get into situations that lead to inappropriate activities that lead to EA and then PA. 

Best thing to do to protect your relationship is to avoid starting down that road. This is the classic beginning of an affair. Your husband knows exactly what he is doing. He told you about the kiss to deflect guilt. He placed himself in the position to kiss this woman they both prepared the way to feel comfortable to kiss. 

Don't take this lightly, your husband will insist upon getting his ego bost by maintaining contact. He knows that he is going down that slippery slope. He is telling you about it because he is try to hide the fact that he knows where this is going. Don't let your husband distort reality or tell you are are over reacting treat this like he is having an affair. If he is not yet he will. 

Insist he cut off all contact with her if accuses you of trying to control him or over reacting let him know that you are protecting the marriage nothing more. If he is not interested in doing that then maybe you need to separate. Be resolute now before things get progress. You are not over- reacting. 

If he insist upon keeping up contact I would do this. Turn the tables on him - woman are so timid and fearful of losing that they hesitate to "woman up". Since he thinks he has the privilege of kissing and it means nothing then you have decided to do the same. Tell him there has been a cute guy at work with juicy lips that has been flirting with you. Tell him you resisted his advances because you did not want to hurt your husband. 

But now you know he will not be hurt you are going to kiss those juicy lips at lest once and make friends with him. Have a guy friend send you send you an email message asking you about your W/E. I am an advocate of giving what you get. 

Men never think that their wives have the oppurtunity to cheat on them. It never occurs to them that the men who cheat are cheating with woman if they are heterosexual and you are a woman. You have to let him know that you have the same opportunities as he does but you control your activities. Let him know that your control is active and a choice and you expect the same from him. 
Men are so devastated by the notion that their wife would cheat that they block it out and think that their manhood compels them to want viriety.

That is where "woman up" comes in. It is important to remind your husband that he had better keep his eye on what is going on at home. Never get into a position where he is too sure of you. Stay in shape, avoid putting on weight and always look good as if you are looking for a date. That is what I do - I get my nails done, hair, clothes always look good, wear high heals and walk like I want to be noticed. My husband is busy watching me, his male DNA is focused on keeping what he has got.

You have to start getting him to not be so sure about you. Begin a process of self improvement, stop being so available, go out once a week. Do something different change your looks. Changing up will feel strange at first but start in small ways and build up. Make yourself into a woman that he needs to watch, start now or wait until he cheats.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

betrayed2011 said:


> i agree with everyone... there's some really good sharing here.
> 
> my boyfriend which i'm trying to break free, and pretend nothing is going on is hard to do, i know for myself i'm going through a ton of emotions, living under the same roof knowing he's cheating, he's constantly on line, and texting, it drives me mad
> 
> then at night everything is nice and cozy because he's home and has a bed here, or because i'm here makes his world perfect.
> 
> he disappears no communication 7 hours at at time, and it's getting worse, his tex to me, he has no compassion or care of how i'm doing at all.
> 
> the mixed feelings i get, are, hope because he's home at night and things are going okay, then i feel like i'm the bad and nutty person by asking simple questions like "oh you going out" reply ya i'll see you later... it's a cycle of feelings and i know i need to get out of this relationship, but, he owes me money (i know i'm on the verge of considering it a loss)
> 
> i'm distraught, confused, can't think straight, think i'm useless and unattractive and so on, i need help with grief and loss and i know it'll help me get through this...
> 
> self care is very important, you being happy will bring happiness all around you too, wish you all the best, stay strong and liberated, you can do it!


you need to get out of this situation asap to keep from losing all your self esteem, whether he owes you money or not. its not good for you or anybody to be in this situation. and you dont have a marriage to worry about yet either.
try and get him to sign a promissory note first so you can take him to court for it if you have to.

to the OP, my wife would also tell me i think just enough of situations so i wouldnt find things out on my own, but it was just enough to try and make me feel comfortable because she was "being open" when in reality there was plenty more she was not telling me as i would find out later. that was always one of her give aways though. i think there is much more going on unfortunately. if it had been an innocent kiss that she just "sprung" on him i dont think he would have kept her number after she gave it to him and he would not befriend her on fb or texted her. if it was something he didnt want he would have dropped all contact with her at that moment. its not like he has to work with her so he has to still be nice for a working relationship. also his boss is very wrong for instigating it to go on. for me at this point, after putting up with a cheating wife for the last 14 years, any kind of inappropriate activity would be a deal breaker for me. no excuses, no explanations.


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## ddrh

NO... don't actually make it easy for him to have ANY KIND OF RELATIONSHIP with this woman!!!! 

He needs to go to you for ANY of his needs a man needs from a woman... including the admiring him and flirting with him. 

I think you have choices: You are either going to FIGHT for your marriage tooth and nail... (I would definitely trust your gut--I believe his lying to you and telling you only the tip of the iceberg--I'm just telling you this because if you're gonna fight for him, well things may get worse before they get better... you may find out A Lot More you maybe don't want to know or believe--I wouldn't be surprised if he slept with her... I'm just saying prepare for the worst). If you FIGHT for him... GET AGGRESSIVE (nicely)... dress up more, don't criticize him much, be appreciative of any little thing he does for you, flirt, smile, basically win him over (if possible)... but he wants to know what you feel comfortable with in regards to what happened... tell him straight up that you don't want him to have ANY CONTACT with that woman... NOT on facebook, not on the phone... that after how unfaithful he was to you--this is 'all' you ask of him to prove that he still wants to be with only YOU. You have to help him delete the account and cell number etc. (I would actually keep the # so that I would call her myself and tell her off--tell her he's your man and to butt off!)... men usually like this as it can encourage him that you will fight for him... and you also will feel good about it--I think. Have dates... your relationship needs a revamp (NOT BECAUSE OF YOU, but because the relationship itself is in jeopardy--you're about to maybe lose your husband to another woman... and well... you either CARE or you don't)
And if you don't care, well you know what you can do.
But man... he totally did mess up his relationship with you because Trust has just gone out the window--whatever there was.
He's gotta earn it back... and you're the only one that can tell him how.

Wishing you the best. But don't go putting yourself down... He sinned and broke your wedding vows, not you.


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## ddrh

You have to start getting him to not be so sure about you. Begin a process of self improvement, stop being so available, go out once a week. Do something different change your looks. Changing up will feel strange at first but start in small ways and build up. Make yourself into a woman that he needs to watch, start now or wait until he cheats.
_Posted via Mobile Device_[/QUOTE]


I totally agree this is a good idea, but more for a little self-esteem boost after this stab in the heart. Just be careful-- he may also interpret it as --well my wife is 'hard to get' while this other one is easy and gives me attention... just beware. 

BUT I LOVE LOVE LOVE the idea of a little change... work on being a better you FoR YOU!

I feel you in your situation... and I really hope you guys make it through (if it's your desire)... this will take time no matter how you slice it.

Make sure you have a backup action in case he messes up 'again' after he promises you 'no contact'...


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## tobio

UPDATE...

Well, I don't think I could have handled this worse!

I was holding off, thinking a lot. Bear in mind he only told me yesterday morning, he was really upset, told me he's been unfaithful...

I softened a little (yes, stupid I know) and said he could stay at the house (we agreed previously he would stay at his mums.) I said I wanted some space though to think, so he went out with his friend.

We talked when he came back. He was remorseful, asking what was going on, had I thought about things, had he messed everything up? I said I didn't know yet.

We got talking about it. There was a lot said, but the pertinent points...

He said he DID have feelings for this girl. He liked her but he didn't want to see her again or have any kind of relationship. 

She texted him on his way to meet his friend. He said he just deleted it and didn't reply.

He said he loved me and loved his children and didn't want to leave. He said the situation was really hard to handle and he didn't know what he wanted. He went from being a single guy living at home to one with two stepchildren and two biological children in the space of four years and he didn't know where he was, it was so difficult (I get this, I knew this already.)

He said he would agree to deleting her as a friend on FB, and deleting her number. He said he would agree to no contact, and complete openness with his FB, phone etc whenever I wanted it.

He is all over the place. One minute he was saying he found things really hard and didn't know what he wanted, the next that he loves me so much and if he didn't and he was unhappy he wouldn't stay. He says he was flattered by the attention of this girl but didn't think anything of it, and it was literally her trying to kiss him and he pulled away straightaway. This keeps changing a little every time he tells me. He was gutted when he told me, said he'd been unfaithful, yet last night he's saying it was all her, she went in for the kiss and he genuinely didn't know she was going to do it???

He didn't think much of it right after it happened which is why he didn't say anything straightaway, and why he friended her on FB and texted her. It was only the day after when we spent the day together that he got thinking and started to realise it was not good.

The jury's still out on this one. I'm very ashamed to say that after a particularly emotional part of the conversation we got it on, and it was all very heated, and he started to say stuff like (and I swear to god I am not making this up), "so you like me treating you like dirt do you?" You like thinking about me doing stuff with other women?" God that totally shocked me.

The BIG thing I have noticed is that his new phone (the one he texted this girl on) is not here. He usually keeps it at home because it's brand new and expensive, but there's no sign of it. I am thinking he's taken it to work, but why would he do that- he never usually does? I plan to call him and ask.

I'm just a total mess, I'm smothering him I know but I feel so insecure, I need him to hold me but he tells me he feels he doesn't deserve to?


----------



## tobio

He says his phone is with him because he put it in his work trouser pocket last night when he carried his clothes upstairs and forgot to take it out. He says there's nothing more sinister to it, it is just that.

This is going to be so, so, so difficult. I am finding myself wanting to phone him up, ask him things, talk to him, I know the children will be back from school later and I'll have to act normally around them, the baby is here gurgling and cooing at me and all I can do is cry. The fact he says he has feelings for this girl is like a knife in the guts, it makes it ten times worse. I keep thinking what was she doing that I wasn't- I was making a concerted effort every day, making him feel good, letting him know he is sexy, handsome, our sex life was good, it's not as if he needed to get attention from elsewhere...

I said I wished he knew how it felt and he went all soft on me...


----------



## Syrum

> The jury's still out on this one. I'm very ashamed to say that after a particularly emotional part of the conversation we got it on, and it was all very heated, and he started to say stuff like (and I swear to god I am not making this up), "so you like me treating you like dirt do you?" You like thinking about me doing stuff with other women?" God that totally shocked me.
> 
> The BIG thing I have noticed is that his new phone (the one he texted this girl on) is not here. He usually keeps it at home because it's brand new and expensive, but there's no sign of it. I am thinking he's taken it to work, but why would he do that- he never usually does? I plan to call him and ask.
> 
> I'm just a total mess, I'm smothering him I know but I feel so insecure, I need him to hold me but he tells me he feels he doesn't deserve to?


I just want to shake you. Seriously. He is a d!ck! You have allready allowed him to treat you like rubbish, and he knows he can get away with it. A decent man would never behave the way he has, and you deserve to be treated better. 

You are the mother of his children, you love him, care for him and respect your relationship but He continually shows you how much you mean to him and I'm afraid it's not much.

I cannot believe the things he said when you were getting it on. WTF? It sounds like he thinks he can do whatever he likes yuck.

I know hes the father of your children but you are there example and they are learning how to be treated or how to treat women from your relationship. Would you want this for any of them?


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## Catherine602

tobio said:


> He says his phone is with him because he put it in his work trouser pocket last night when he carried his clothes upstairs and forgot to take it out. He says there's nothing more sinister to it, it is just that.
> 
> This is going to be so, so, so difficult. I am finding myself wanting to phone him up, ask him things, talk to him, I know the children will be back from school later and I'll have to act normally around them, the baby is here gurgling and cooing at me and all I can do is cry. The fact he says he has feelings for this girl is like a knife in the guts, it makes it ten times worse. I keep thinking what was she doing that I wasn't- I was making a concerted effort every day, making him feel good, letting him know he is sexy, handsome, our sex life was good, it's not as if he needed to get attention from elsewhere...
> 
> I said I wished he knew how it felt and he went all soft on me...


You are handling everything exactly the way you should. You just had a child and this is a shock. Before doing anything do you have time to read about infidelity so you understand what's going on with him and so that you will know how to handle it? http://www.affaircare.com/ this is a link to a site maintained by a member of this forum. He shows the classic behavior of a man having an EA or PA. The phone thing is again classic he closely guards it because he is still communicationg with her. Because he has emotional feelings for her it will be difficult for him to give her up. He appears to be in a fog of fantasy land. Sounds like he imagines his like of bliss with out the responsibility of a family. 

You sound as if you are having sympathy for him. He is not a child, you are not his mother, you are his wife the mother of two children whose well being he is jeopardizing by his selfishness. His position deserves no sympathy, he is a man with responsibilities who is acting like a high school boy. The junk about not knowing where he is because of his responsibility is typical cheaters reinventing history to explain what is pure selfishness and deceit. He made the choice to marry and have two kids and you are in the same situation but you don't have the luxury of indulging in a selfish fantasy. Don't make it easy for him to do this to you, he is getting you permission to carry on that is obvious from what he says. Your attitude is that you understand why he should cheat on you instead of outrage. You had it right when he was fearful of you acting resolutely but you gave the green light by sympathy and hot sex. Now he is off and running with the phone no worries about the wife anymore. That must be a relief to him. 

Do you have some support? And can you call upon them now? No matter how he back tracks and prevaricates, he is having an affair and is emotionally connected to this girl. You have to read all of the information on infidelity on this site, and follow their advice if you want to save your marriage. Get ready for a rocky time and if you allow him, he will string you along while continuing the affair. Cheaters lie, lie lie even when you show them pictures they lie. You have to deny him the comforts of home with you so that he sees what it will be like to be divorcees and he knows that you will not tolerate infidelity. 

I am sorry this has happened but there is hope if you follow the experts. /. The very best of luck.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Catherine602

Syrum said:


> I just want to shake you. Seriously. He is a d!ck! You have allready allowed him to treat you like rubbish, and he knows he can get away with it. A decent man would never behave the way he has, and you deserve to be treated better.
> 
> You are the mother of his children, you love him, care for him and respect your relationship but He continually shows you how much you mean to him and I'm afraid it's not much.
> 
> I cannot believe the things he said when you were getting it on. WTF? It sounds like he thinks he can do whatever he likes yuck.
> 
> I know hes the father of your children but you are there example and they are learning how to be treated or how to treat women from your relationship. Would you want this for any of them?


Agreed the garbage he said to you was horrible he is celebrating the affair in your face. Do not let him get away with this. He does not respect you if he can say those things and get away with it you should have stopped and thrown him out just then that would have sent a very clear message. But you are in shock now, a temporary state. he is fairly certain that he will be able to play out this fantasy and have the comforts of home with a wife who will grovel to keep him. Letting him get away with treating you like this will sap your self esteem and you will find it difficult to demand respect. Don't get into the mindset of thinking there is something wrong with you. There is not - there is something wrong with a man who disrespects his wife and goes into to fantasy land and abandons them.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio

Yes, he IS a ****. I cringed when I read back what he said. I cringe when I think about it.

I want to tell him when he gets in from work that with retrospect, last night was foolish and he should go and stay with his mum as we discussed. Syrum and catherine, you are both right. He is feeling no actions to his consequences and I've basically given him the green light saying his behaviour is "tolerable" or even acceptable. He has taken total control over this without me even realising the dynamic shifted.

I have been strong, which he has responded fearfully to, but as soon as I give an inch, he is taking a mile. It sounds stupid but despite everything he has said, it is the thought of him saying he doesn't love me that is causing me to cling. I am going to check out the website catherine recommended.

Also, I just noticed the girl in question has locked down everything on her FB page since I messaged her last night, even the "send a message" link. I can only assume my message has guilted her; I'd be interested to know if she's contacted OH today about it. I would assume if she's going to contact him, she'll do it via text now. I also noticed OH checked FB before going to bed last night but it doesn't appear he did much except log in.


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## tobio

It really does just get better...

Texted him this morning asking where he was working. No reply or call all day. Rang him just now after finding out he'd called my parents about the oldest sleeping over last night asking why hadn't he called me...

He says he thinks I am blowing this out of all proportion. He actually LAUGHED when I told him I'd messaged the girl on FB. Asked if she'd replied. I said he should be on his hands and knees begging my forgiveness; he sounded clueless and asked what I wanted him to do. Calling from work would be a good start said I!

And the absolute corker of it all? Guess where he's working? Yep- where he was the last four weeks. I soon worked out why he hadn't called! That does happen at his work so I did think about the possibility, he said he didn't know he was going to be there but rest assured, he will be told that if they try to send him there tomorrow, he will be swapping with someone else or I shall be explaining to work exactly what he was doing on work time.

He swears he hasn't had any contact with her today at all; he did say he saw her from a distance briefly this morning but that was it.

I confronted him over the discrepancies in his story; one being that it seemed really odd that he would rebuff her advances yet right after that she would offer him her phone number. Really? I said I knew he was lying, hiding something, or still twisting the truth and he had three hours to think about what he was going to tell me when he gets back from work, about what REALLY happened or else I am packing his bags for him there and then and I am not looking back. I could tell from his tone of voice there was something- I KNOW there is. I KNOW it.

Roll on hometime I say, the mood I'm in now I feel like I could sort this out once and for all one way or the other so he better have something to tell me because THAT is the only way I am prepared to move forward with him. Otherwise he is going.


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## madimoff

I hope you're wrong, but there's more than a passing chance you're right; fwiw (and that's not a lot, from someone you don't know in pixelland) I think you've sounded remarkably strong, and I wish you good luck for later

Either he's very shallow & doesn't realise the hurt you've felt from the logical interpretations you've made, or he's been doing something and doesn't care about the hurt etc (except if he wants to salvage your relationship) - and that remains to be seen


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## Catherine602

gaslighting - to play head games with people. Did you go to the Affair Care site? It is amazing how consistent a cheating spouse follows the script. 

This is a typical strategy - the cheater tries to convince the loyal spouse that they what they see is a fiction. Accusing the loyal spouse of over-reacting, trying to control them, being crazy, finally they become enraged if the spouse persist. It works when you are not aware of what they are doing. 

It is essential you read some of the info on the site - it confirm your perception of reality. When a person you think you know does this, it is difficult to believe that the once loving and caring partner could look in your eyes and lie to cover up what they know is wrong. You want very badly to believe them, but you can't. 

He is in a fog of the fantasy of being desired by the OW, it has changed the once loving man into a jerk, albeit probably a temporary one.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Where there is smoke there is fire. The kissing story was just the beginning.


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## Rob774

All i can say is that if my wife kissed a guy... NO communication with that guy immediately. NO emails, FB, texts....NOTHING!!! Violation of that to me means something more sinister is going on and i'm out!!! I understand the OP's plight and why she had to handle the kid gloves. But i think her strongest position was the beggining, and after she wasn't strong initially, it was his green light to dance around this.


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## VeryHurt

I have been in your shoes. There are many women out there that do not care whatsoever if a man is married. These women lack a sense of character and morality. Of course your husband was flattered. She knew what she was doing. I would contact her and let her know that you are onto her and to leave your husband alone. If he questions you about why you contacted her you will then know that they are still communicating!


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## tobio

I am so nervous. He comes back in half an hour or so, and I am bricking it. He is going to do one of three things:

*tell me he's told me the truth already
*basically tell me what he's already told me with a few tweaks
*tell me the whole truth.

My stomach is churning. I HAVE to take action now I've given him an ultimatum but I have no measure of if he's telling the truth, only my gut instinct- which I have to say, is usually right.

If anyone wants to throw in something helpful here then please do- I'm the least confrontational person EVER. The adrenaline is pumping, which does help, but I'm worried I'm going to mess up.

I intend to take control and steer the conversation, tell him what's happening, and go through what I want to know- which means basically getting him to start at wherever the beginning is and what has happened between them from then until now.

Any pointers?


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## Therealbrighteyes

I wouldn't put alot of stock in what he is telling you. He has already lied and deleted evidence. You need to find out on your own through either VAR or keylogger.


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## Runs like Dog

Could be worse. He could have kissed another man.


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## Catherine602

tobio said:


> I am so nervous. He comes back in half an hour or so, and I am bricking it. He is going to do one of three things:
> 
> *tell me he's told me the truth already
> *basically tell me what he's already told me with a few tweaks
> *tell me the whole truth.
> 
> My stomach is churning. I HAVE to take action now I've given him an ultimatum but I have no measure of if he's telling the truth, only my gut instinct- which I have to say, is usually right.
> 
> If anyone wants to throw in something helpful here then please do- I'm the least confrontational person EVER. The adrenaline is pumping, which does help, but I'm worried I'm going to mess up.
> 
> I intend to take control and steer the conversation, tell him what's happening, and go through what I want to know- which means basically getting him to start at wherever the beginning is and what has happened between them from then until now.
> 
> Any pointers?


did you read my post on the previous page and did you read the info on the Affair Care site? Those are pointers why not follow those?


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## tobio

Catherine, yes I did and I checked out the link. I read through what to do on the site earlier. I have sort of followed it in a fashion.

He came back. He found me and wanted to get talking right away. We spoke for ages, I worked it how I planned and led the conversation. I am quite pleased with myself- he is at times quite dominating in conversation and I am not but I led, I stopped him when he was talking over me and I used strong, positive language. I collared him when he tried to turn things around, deflect and minimise and I could see that fear coming back again once he realised the situation was ME deciding whether to have HIM back, not him deciding whether he was staying.

I kept emphasising that things would go how *I* wanted, I outlined what was going to happen and he would have to accept these terms (access to his email, FB etc and phone) if we were going to get to a point where I could even consider having him back. He is going to come here from work, help with the kids and then stay at his mums whilst I have some space to think.

His version of things basically goes that he unintentionally but with retrospect foolishly put himself in a situation he shouldn't have. He had no intention of engineering anything and didn't foresee that she might try something. He says he has spoken to her a fair bit over the last two weeks but there was nothing to it and he would never have any intention of pursuing her. He said he would have happily just shook her hand to say bye but she asked for a hug.

Now... the jury IS still out on this one. He swears he is telling the truth, and I WANT to believe him, he keeps saying over and over what he has told me is how it happened, he hasn't lied, and anything he said right after he told me was from when things were quite heated and a bit hazy. He also says that the reason he was so protective of his phone was because he thought I was going to smash it...!

He seems quite outraged that I might think he's carrying things on. His whole "defence" rests upon him claiming basically that he was oblivious to the whole proceedings, which knowing what he's like, could be completely true She gave him her phone number "in case things changed" between me and him, she asked for a hug, he hugged her, and she went in for the kiss. He still swears he didn't reciprocate and pulled away.

He claims he looked her up on FB because he'd heard she was posting things about him and he wanted to see. Which she was. He was also worried someone he knew might find out and he wanted to tell me first- seems a bit of an effort I STILL think for half a kiss but that is it, he's sticking with that. It might be true for all I know *shrugs*


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## Trenton

Oh my gosh, I would be so very hurt. No contact is a definite. I don't know where I'd be but I'd be really considering an exit strategy. I know you're in the roughest of spots because you still have little ones. I'm so sorry you're going through this. I'd be so angry and hurt.


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## tobio

Thanks Trenton, I appreciate it. I'm still reeling, more so because I don't truly know what I'm dealing with. I don't know if it's "just" a kiss that got him by surprise like he says, if he reciprocated, if there was anything else, if there's been any contact apart from what we've talked about. I just don't know.

Right now, I am inclined to believe the majority of what he says. Not ALL. I am having difficulty with if she kissed him and if he reciprocated. I do believe that he has gotten himself tangled up in something he never intended and it has spread and gotten bigger than it ought to have due to his inept actions.

The bit I am struggling with particularly is his intentions when he texted her afterwards. The texts I saw appear fairly innocent. He certainly wasn't sending anything questionable. But it does appear he deleted his history though he swears there is nothing in it.

We are going to sit down later and look at his FB and hotmail, his phone account and his phone. I have said I want access to his phone bills which he has agreed to, he has agreed to be open and honest about showing anything I need to see.

He was iffy about the fact I messaged her. He says he knows I feel embarrassed by what's happened and he doesn't want me to embarrass myself. He asked what I said so it doesn't appear he has spoken to her today.


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## Trenton

tobio said:


> Thanks Trenton, I appreciate it. I'm still reeling, more so because I don't truly know what I'm dealing with. I don't know if it's "just" a kiss that got him by surprise like he says, if he reciprocated, if there was anything else, if there's been any contact apart from what we've talked about. I just don't know.
> 
> Right now, I am inclined to believe the majority of what he says. Not ALL. I am having difficulty with if she kissed him and if he reciprocated. I do believe that he has gotten himself tangled up in something he never intended and it has spread and gotten bigger than it ought to have due to his inept actions.
> 
> The bit I am struggling with particularly is his intentions when he texted her afterwards. The texts I saw appear fairly innocent. He certainly wasn't sending anything questionable. But it does appear he deleted his history though he swears there is nothing in it.
> 
> We are going to sit down later and look at his FB and hotmail, his phone account and his phone. I have said I want access to his phone bills which he has agreed to, he has agreed to be open and honest about showing anything I need to see.
> 
> He was iffy about the fact I messaged her. He says he knows I feel embarrassed by what's happened and he doesn't want me to embarrass myself. He asked what I said so it doesn't appear he has spoken to her today.


He would have time to cover his tracks though wouldn't he? 

What would bother me is that he didn't put this woman in her place, is still fb friends with her, sends her a text after the fact and has not been a great husband to you for the past couple of really tough months in your life. He's supposed to be your other half, he should CARE so much about what you're going through instead of flirting or getting into sticky situations at work. 

Let's just say, you are far more reasonable than I! I'd drop my basket big time.

You're dealing with babies and routines while he's saying he needs his sleep and accidentally kissing a woman at work. I say...NOT FAIR! NOT FAIR! NOT FAIR!


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## Catherine602

tobio said:


> He says he has spoken to her a fair bit over the last two weeks but there was nothing to it and he would never have any intention of pursuing her. He said he would have happily just shook her hand to say bye but she asked for a hug.
> 
> He also says that the reason he was so protective of his phone was because he thought I was going to smash it...!
> 
> He seems quite outraged that I might think he's carrying things on.
> 
> She gave him her phone number "in case things changed" between me and him, she asked for a hug, he hugged her, and she went in for the kiss. He still swears he didn't reciprocate and pulled away.
> 
> He claims he looked her up on FB because he'd heard she was posting things about him and he wanted to see. Which she was. He was also worried someone he knew might find out and he wanted to tell me first- seems a bit of an effort I STILL think for half a kiss but that is it, he's sticking with that. It might be true for all I know *shrugs*


Did you read what you said, why did she think things were going south in the marriage? Was he discussing that with her is there something he is not telling you? It is possible he gave her the impression that things were falling apart and she was next in line. 

She gave him her number in case things did not work out and !!!!!!! HE TOOK IT !!!!! . He has obviously been talking to her about his unhappiness and giving her the impression that he on the verge of leaving. The fact that he took her number means he considered using it and has done so. That says it all. 

He slipped up telling you that one.

That's my interpretation, what's yours. Call him on this.

The enraged angry stuff is typical deflecting - he was the one who behaved deceptively and did what he should not have done. He acted untrustworthy and you don't trust him and justifiably so because of his actions. Call him on it, you should let him know that you know what he is doing and if he continues you will not decide in his favor.

Is this woman married, engaged or other wise connected? If so gather all information you may need to communicate with her SO if she continues to contact your husband. The embarrassment stuff is BS. 

Tell him you are not embarrassed just determination to protect your marriage and the future of your children since he will not do it. And you will use what ever means necessary. He might want to consider that if his children are not worth that to him, you consider that another stick against your deciding in his favor. 

This is not over by a long shot. It will most likely go underground. So be vigilant. accept that. that when he trys to use the anger thing on you.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Catherine602 said:


> Did you read what you said, why did she think things were going south in the marriage? Was he discussing that with her is there something he is not telling you? It is possible he gave her the impression that things were falling apart and she was next in line.
> 
> She gave him her number in case things did not work out and !!!!!!! HE TOOK IT !!!!! . He has obviously been talking to her about his unhappiness and giving her the impression that he on the verge of leaving. The fact that he took her number means he considered using it and has done so. That says it all.
> 
> He slipped up telling you that one.
> 
> That's my interpretation, what's yours. Call him on this.
> 
> The enraged angry stuff is typical deflecting - he was the one who behaved deceptively and did what he should not have done. He acted untrustworthy and you don't trust him and justifiably so because of his actions. Call him on it, you should let him know that you know what he is doing and if he continues you will not decide in his favor.
> 
> Is this woman married, engaged or other wise connected? If so gather all information you may need to communicate with her SO if she continues to contact your husband. The embarrassment stuff is BS.
> 
> Tell him you are not embarrassed just determination to protect your marriage and the future of your children since he will not do it. And you will use what ever means necessary. He might want to consider that if his children are not worth that to him, you consider that another stick against your deciding in his favor.
> 
> This is not over by a long shot. It will most likely go underground. So be vigilant. accept that. that when he trys to use the anger thing on you.


For exactly what you outlined is why I suggest a VAR and keylogger. The underground part is what I too would be worried about.


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## tobio

I checked everything. There is no trace of anything on his FB, or hotmail (which he barely uses.) Knowing he isn't very technically minded, I doubt he's been sending things and deleting them out of the sent folder so fairly sure there's nothing amiss with that. I checked his phone bill against what he had on his phone and it tallies up- ie he hasn't had any contact with her that I don't know about. 

I blocked her on his FB and also another person he met at this particular job that he's added as a friend- a guy - who appears to work with this girl. I also deleted her number from his phone.

The only other thing is his other, old phone which he usually takes to work. He was texting her on his new phone which I have checked. I couldn't see any sign of any messages to her on his old phone, nor her number stored anywhere. He's deleted most messages on that phone prior to me checking it so there's hardly anything on there, my initial thoughts were that he's been texting his friend who just found out what has happened with me and OH and didn't want me to see what has been said so he's deleted it- another possible red flag. I'm on that at the mo and waiting to find out what was said.

Re: the idea for the VAR- tbh he rarely uses the car except for when we're with him, and as he's at his mums, it wouldn't be productive- right now anyway. The keylogger- again he's at his mums, but also he has internet access on his phone so if he wanted to go online he would do on that. I don't know if you can install a keylogger on someone else's phone? Where would I get a keylogger for the computer anyway?


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## Syrum

He is the only one who should be embarassed. I agree with everything Catherine wrote.


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## Trenton

Tobio, it's possible what he's saying is the truth but it does speak to the fact that he is able to continue with his life freely and enjoy the attraction of another woman to him, overstep boundaries of your relationship further and not give you what you deserve as his wife and mother of his children. 

If he doesn't complain about the end of the fb friendship and deletion of the phone number and recommits to your relationship and starts to hear you needs and wants, I think good on him and he deserves chances to get this right. 

I wouldn't let this current distraction allow you to stop demanding what it is you need from the relationship. No matter how you toss it, you still deserve better from him and I'm sure he's capable of it.


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## Catherine602

Great points Threnton.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio

Trenton said:


> Tobio, it's possible what he's saying is the truth but it does speak to the fact that he is able to continue with his life freely and enjoy the attraction of another woman to him, overstep boundaries of your relationship further and not give you what you deserve as his wife and mother of his children.
> 
> If he doesn't complain about the end of the fb friendship and deletion of the phone number and recommits to your relationship and starts to hear you needs and wants, I think good on him and he deserves chances to get this right.
> 
> I wouldn't let this current distraction allow you to stop demanding what it is you need from the relationship. No matter how you toss it, you still deserve better from him and I'm sure he's capable of it.


As of right now, the situation is that he's staying at his mums. For how long? However long it takes me to make a decision over what I want to happen. He is coming round after work to help with the kids but after that he will return to his mums. He certainly isn't getting any home comforts (of ANY kind!), no dinner, no laundry, no sleeping here. If he wants to see the kids he can come here.

I cannot make a decision now because my feelings are swinging madly from one extreme to the other. Earlier I was thinking I could think about him coming back IF he shows me he is genuinely remorseful, shows some insight into why he didn't have the foresight to not put himself in such a situation, and shows willingness to work on things, of his own initiative AND being willing to go to counselling together. Right now, I'm wanting to shake him and ask him what the hell he thought he was doing and was the ego trip worth all of this, and tell him I can't ever trust him again. I just don't feel like I'm in a place yet where I can see clearly a way forward.

What concerns me is that IMO he should be doing anything and everything to prove to me how important this is to him and that I can trust him again. He consented to complete openness and honesty regarding any kind of contact which is good. However, the only "personal" thing he has done is buy me ice cream- it's a little thing he does since the baby was born and I get glued to the sofa in the evening feeding the baby. He has asked a few times what he should be doing, I could give him some ideas but I want it to come from the heart. Although I did say a phone call when he's on his break from work would be a good start so I shall see if that materialises.

The other thing is that my self-esteem has taken a real hit. I look in the mirror and I feel really ugly. I've always thought I'm not that bad on the eye and been told so, made an effort, but I see myself now and think, I wonder if he thinks she's prettier than me, I know she works out a lot and, you know, I'm have a good figure but I don't work out yet (been waiting until baby isn't breastfeeding 100%) and I do have a bit of a baby belly. It is killing me to think he might find her more attractive- the photo that was on her FB was very revealing. I feel like I can't compete with that right now.


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## tobio

So now I am wondering if he is harbouring any feelings for this girl. I am TOTALLY in overanalysis mode. I keep thinking of all the details, I wonder where he is working today, if he's at the site where she is, if he is, then if he's seen her, spoken to her...

He hasn't called, he texted earlier in response to a text I sent about some money stuff I needed to know, but his reply said he would come round after work to drop off what I needed. No "how are you?" or anything else. I guess I'm wondering what he's going to do to show he is making an effort.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

i just dont trust this situation at all. 
he let too much happen after the 'accident' instead of taking care of it right away...on his own.
i have my own saying...
if my SO cant make up their mind about how they feel about me, i will make it up for them. adios.


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## Catherine602

tobio said:


> So now I am wondering if he is harbouring any feelings for this girl. I am TOTALLY in overanalysis mode. I keep thinking of all the details, I wonder where he is working today, if he's at the site where she is, if he is, then if he's seen her, spoken to her...
> 
> He hasn't called, he texted earlier in response to a text I sent about some money stuff I needed to know, but his reply said he would come round after work to drop off what I needed. No "how are you?" or anything else. I guess I'm wondering what he's going to do to show he is making an effort.


What is his attitude? Is is asking you to come home does he seem to be upset about leaving the home? if the arrangement seem to not bother him, it may be an indication of how he feels about the relationship. If he is too complacent it is because he is sure that he will not lose you. You need to change that perception.

ASAP, change you. You just had the baby but it is never too early to start. Get a brest pump so you can hget out for an hr and the baby can still get breast milk. Begin going to the gym and start taking one evening a week to go out. Even if you drive around in your car, go out. Get yourself ready to date again, at lest act that way. Doing that will increase your self-esteem and worry him. Make it your goal to get into a pair of skinny jeans and f**K me shoes by June 1st. 

Right now he is living at his moms, she is doing for him all of the domestic things that you were doing. He deals with the kids less and the day to day operations of the home less, What not to like. 

I think this should not be a vacation for him and a burden to you. Get him to come in the AM early to get the oldest child up and dressed and fed and then go to work. Give him task like shopping cleaning anything to take the burden from you. Don't make this like a vacation for him. 

What positive concreted steps are you both making to see if this is going to work or not? Are you planning on therapy, what? This is not a time to float, have a plan. How do you know he is not still contacting her? Have you told him exactly what he needs to do to get back in the home? Has he done these? 

You need to up the pressure, get him to work and get yourself some relief. What is the attitude of his family? Have they called you? Do his parents want to see their grands. What about your family? Who are your support people?


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## tobio

Ok, here is what is happening... Bear with me whilst I explain.

We did some heavy talking. He said a lot of things, then mostly said the opposite at some point. It has gone from me deciding if I want him back to him not knowing if he wants to be here in the first place.

It seems that the girl "incident" was a symptom of our problems, not THE problem if that makes sense. However, I think his thoughts are clouded by the feelings he has/had for her; I don't believe it WAS anything more, but I strongly feel he is having some kind of "withdrawal" from not seeing her every day and the feelings that go with meeting someone you like.

He went from basically saying it was over and he wanted to move out, to almost breaking down when I got upset, saying he just wanted to be happy, he just didn't know what it was that would make him happy. He feels that things have been bad for a while (I agree) and we've lost most of our connection because of that.

I basically said (and it was SO DIFFICULT) that I felt I could forgive him for what happened; however that didn't mean I thought it was ok. I said I loved him and I wanted to make this work, but either he was all in or he was out. I said if there was a part of him that wanted to make this work then let's do it; but if not then that was it.

He said, let's do it. Let's try. So he came back last night. He was making an effort, in his "acts of service" way. He made dinner- one of my favourites. He got me ice cream. I asked him to sit with me when we were watching tv- he did and stayed there the rest of the evening with me.

He even went from not liking the idea of counselling to showing an active interest in it, what happens etc. We have identified our problems, I personally think they are fixable but will take some work from both of us. On our own we're not sure where to start, we don't know what we're supposed to be doing, how we're supposed to be acting. I don't want to be constantly engaging in very heavy talks; yes we need to do a lot more talking, but we also need to be doing whatever it is that made us want to be together in the first place.

I still feel terribly insecure. I am worried that he's just going to turn round one day and say, he can't do this. I don't want to be miserable around him, I don't want to give him my feelings and say, here, deal with all this, but I am obviously still going through things in my head, but I don't know where to start with if I have forgiven him, how do I move on from there? I still feel I want to check phone records but not forever, just for now. He has consented to this.

If I could write out an ideal plan of how things would go to recover things, it WOULDN'T be this! I want him to WANT to be here, and want to know how I do that, but equally I WANT him to show he wants to be here and make an effort. He has shown willing which is good. I guess I have to take it on a day-to-day basis.


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## Trenton

Tobio, I feel your husband is manipulating you (in a bad way). He is selfish and he's using your insecurities against you.

Catherine was correct when she said that being at his Mom's is like a vacation. You do more and he gets to do even less when he wasn't doing enough to begin with.

He chose to kiss this woman and feel as if he was missing something in your relationship at a time you feel most insecure about your body because of your home situation giving birth to and raising HIS kids and are asking for more support.

Your baby body is easy to change. As a mom of three, I can completely understand. It's harder and harder to get your body back isn't it? Just know that when you want to, you will. My husband works with 20 somethings who have had no children. They have flat stomachs and perky boobies. It creates insecurity on its own, if he kissed one of them, I can only imagine the hurt I would feel. You don't do that to someone you love who is struggling!

Catherine was also correct when she said you should begin allowing yourself you time right now. I know that might not even look attractive because when you have wee little ones you are so emotionally invested, but she is right. The more you take care of yourself, the clearer the message to your husband...YOU ARE NEGLECTING ME, YOU ARE TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ME, BUT I WON'T LET YOU.

Either way, things will get easier. Even if they're not at their worst. Your children will get older, your confidence and sense of self will return and hopefully your husband will wake up and realize he is married to a wonderful woman. 

*I really feel he wants to stay married but wants to manipulate you into letting him have it far easier than you without complaint from you and is doing this by acting out and saying/doing hurtful things.* It might not be on purpose, he might not recognize it for what it is but it still is. YOU deserve better from him.


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## Catherine602

tobio said:


> Ok, here is what is happening... Bear with me whilst I explain.
> 
> We did some heavy talking. He said a lot of things, then mostly said the opposite at some point. It has gone from me deciding if I want him back to him not knowing if he wants to be here in the first place.
> 
> It seems that the girl "incident" was a symptom of our problems, not THE problem if that makes sense. However, I think his thoughts are clouded by the feelings he has/had for her; I don't believe it WAS anything more, but I strongly feel he is having some kind of "withdrawal" from not seeing her every day and the feelings that go with meeting someone you like.
> 
> He went from basically saying it was over and he wanted to move out, to almost breaking down when I got upset, saying he just wanted to be happy, he just didn't know what it was that would make him happy. He feels that things have been bad for a while (I agree) and we've lost most of our connection because of that.
> 
> I basically said (and it was SO DIFFICULT) that I felt I could forgive him for what happened; however that didn't mean I thought it was ok. I said I loved him and I wanted to make this work, but either he was all in or he was out. I said if there was a part of him that wanted to make this work then let's do it; but if not then that was it.
> 
> He said, let's do it. Let's try. So he came back last night. He was making an effort, in his "acts of service" way. He made dinner- one of my favourites. He got me ice cream. I asked him to sit with me when we were watching tv- he did and stayed there the rest of the evening with me.
> 
> We have identified our problems, I personally think they are fixable but will take some work from both of us. On our own we're not sure where to start, we don't know what we're supposed to be doing, how we're supposed to be acting. I don't want to be constantly engaging in very heavy talks; yes we need to do a lot more talking, but we also need to be doing whatever it is that made us want to be together in the first place.
> 
> I still feel terribly insecure. I am worried that he's just going to turn round one day and say, he can't do this. I don't want to be miserable around him, I don't want to give him my feelings and say, here, deal with all this, but I am obviously still going through things in my head, but I don't know where to start with if I have forgiven him, how do I move on from there? I still feel I want to check phone records but not forever, just for now. He has consented to this.
> .


I am so happy at this turn around, you can make this work. There may be days ahead where he waffles but you must not resort to anxiously watching him. Don't walk on egg shells either, he may not be able to fully comfort and reassure you that he loves, so you may have to have wait. Set boundaries on what you will tolerate. 

This is hard but the more power to give to him by being vigilant and insecure the less love he will show you. This is a critical time and will set the tone of your marriage. I think the conventional wisdom is that the marriage is never the same after infidelity, you have to build a new relationship. 

Work really really hard to turn your anxiety inwards and work on making yourself be a woman that can capture a mans heart. It may not be your husbands heart in the end but any mans heart. I don't mean pretending that you are happy but being happy with yourself and who you are. 

I'll repeat my suggestion about leaving him to care for the children while you go out with friends. Start exercising, change hair get nails done any thing to boost your self esteem. It will not come from your husband but from you. 

Would you PM one of the members of the forum who is a source of information? The name is AffairCare this is the link to her profile. Talk About Marriage - View Profile: Affaircare

She may be able to offer suggestion and support you through this period. Do you have friends and or family that you can call upon at this time?

I just want to tell you that he may go back and forth about being in the marriage. You can not become a doormat to keep him set boundaries and work on you. You can only control you. Get MC ASAP.


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## tobio

Catherine I thought you were going to tell me off LOL! I have already PM'd Affaircare just before I read your message

Thank you both.

I am booked in at the gym tomorrow for a look around- I picked one with a good creche that will care for young children, which will avoid the problem of having to juggle gym and childcare. I also splurged on some new outfits. I am hoping to get out for a drink at some point over the weekend, but haven't decided whether this should be with OH or me and friends yet. So that's the "me" part so far.

Counselling is booked for Monday.

I am worried my insecurities will be a problem in themselves. He left his phones out last night and I took a look at one and noticed he'd called his phone provider whilst at work. I panicked and asked him why; he was happy to answer and said his GPS wasn't working. I feel in retrospect doing that secretively- although he'd obviously left his phones out to show he wasn't hiding them- was a bit wrong. I'd rather be open about doing it if I do. He also left his new phone at home.

I am thinking about turning my outward insecurity inwards- yes I feel INCREDIBLY insecure but that's not what I want him to see.


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## Trenton

Totally understand and good for you! It'd take me months to do what you did in a day or so. The gym I go to now actually has daycare hooked up to cameras which you can see on a specific channel on the televisions that are on each machine.

When I took my two boys with me and placed them in daycare...I spent my entire workout studying them in the daycare...lol


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## Trenton

I also want to add, just in talking to you Tobio, your husband has an amazing, kind, intelligent and thoughtful wife. He'd be an idiot to even consider leaving you. Just keep that little tidbit in mind because it is true.


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## Catherine602

Trenton said:


> I also want to add, just in talking to you Tobio, your husband has an amazing, kind, intelligent and thoughtful wife. He'd be an idiot to even consider leaving you. Just keep that little tidbit in mind because it is true.


Thanks for saying this Trenton, I was thinking it but did not take the time to express it. I really want to echo what Trenton has said Tobio. 

I am so impressed by your emotional control, clear thinking and acting. This is a devastating occurrence and a very difficult time for you and your husband, I am sure. But you have managed the emotional turmoil as best as anyone can. The fact that you have had a baby so recently and still manage to keep it together impresses me even more. 

I have not had this happen to me yet (there is 50% chance it will) but if you read some of the post from men and women with cheating spouses, there is a tendency to allow themselves to be abused. I find it so difficult to read (I advise you not to read those post at this time). 

In contrast, you have reacted in a dignified manner and you obviously have high self-esteem and resiliency. It is quite natural to feel insecure when this happens but I really have to applaud you for working on building it back up not by asking your husband for validation but getting it from your self. 

You husband is a very lucky man to have so self-possessed a wife. I am certain you can turn your rather insightful mind to looking at what went wrong in the marriage and how to fix things. I am glad to see that you are not shrinking from the fact that there were problems before this happened and that you are able to look at yourself. It is easy to point the finger. I hope your husband is owning his role too.

I think you are right not to get into heavy relationship talk now and to let things kind of rest until you see the MC for guidance.

BTW, there is no way I would be critical of the way you have handled this, your instincts are spot on and I have to say again that under very trying circumstances, you have done what very few spouses can do, you reacted in a measured, dignified way.

Your husband seems to have gotten lonely for you, that happens when there are kids especially during the infant toddler stage. I think if you are both aware of how you can drift appart and make sure it does not happen then you will weather this storm ands come out stronger.

I'll give you one other small bit of advice because it helps me keep my self esteem high - always watch your weight, always take the trouble to look good, stay up with the fashions, wear high heals, make up, pants that hug and assume an attitude that if you had to find another man, you would have no problems doing so. Don't depend on only your husband for emotional suport and friendship, dont stay at home all of the time. 

The biggest mistake women make is to become complacent about their appearance I think. I don't look good for my husband alone but for me. I want to make sure that he knows I am not with him out of necessity but out of choice and I could chose at any time to get out.


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## tobio

Trenton said:


> I also want to add, just in talking to you Tobio, your husband has an amazing, kind, intelligent and thoughtful wife. He'd be an idiot to even consider leaving you. Just keep that little tidbit in mind because it is true.





Catherine602 said:


> Thanks for saying this Trenton, I was thinking it but did not take the time to express it. I really want to echo what Trenton has said Tobio.
> 
> I am so impressed by your emotional control, clear thinking and acting. This is a devastating occurrence and a very difficult time for you and your husband, I am sure. But you have managed the emotional turmoil as best as anyone can. The fact that you have had a baby so recently and still manage to keep it together impresses me even more.
> 
> I have not had this happen to me yet (there is 50% chance it will) but if you read some of the post from men and women with cheating spouses, there is a tendency to allow themselves to be abused. I find it so difficult to read (I advise you not to read those post at this time).
> 
> In contrast, you have reacted in a dignified manner and you obviously have high self-esteem and resiliency. It is quite natural to feel insecure when this happens but I really have to applaud you for working on building it back up not by asking your husband for validation but getting it from your self.
> 
> You husband is a very lucky man to have so self-possessed a wife. I am certain you can turn your rather insightful mind to looking at what went wrong in the marriage and how to fix things. I am glad to see that you are not shrinking from the fact that there were problems before this happened and that you are able to look at yourself. It is easy to point the finger. I hope your husband is owning his role too.
> 
> I think you are right not to get into heavy relationship talk now and to let things kind of rest until you see the MC for guidance.
> 
> BTW, there is no way I would be critical of the way you have handled this, your instincts are spot on and I have to say again that under very trying circumstances, you have done what very few spouses can do, you reacted in a measured, dignified way.


I just want to say...

I read these posts a short while ago. I waltzed off into the kitchen thinking, "I'll be ok." Not just ok with this relationship but ok whatever happens.

I have a source of strength. I broke up with my older childrens' father when they were very young; in fact my second child was still a baby. Different circumstances: he preferred drinking and acting like a guy with no children.

The time that followed that, was the most testing and emotional time of my life- apart from this. I learned so much about myself and my abilities to cope on my own. I knew then that I could withstand any emotional storm and come out the other side, and be ok on my own.

This is very much different because I feel a lot differently about OH. He is the only one I have ever wanted to spend the rest of my life with. I have been stuck thinking how will I live without him? Then I read your messages and thought, hang on. I forgot somewhere that yes, I am amazing, kind, intelligent and thoughtful. I will give 100% to make my relationship work. If he doesn't see or appreciate it... then it is HIS loss. If he does... we can make it better and have it STAY better. I think I just forgot who *I* 
was for a second.

What you guys said has been the most uplifting thing in the last three days. I NEEDED to hear that, I just didn't realise it.


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## Affaircare

Just a quick note: I wanted to let you know that I'm starting at the beginning and then I have a few things I'd like to share. It may take a moment to catch up though, so just thought I'd let you know I'm working on it!


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## tobio

Affaircare said:


> Just a quick note: I wanted to let you know that I'm starting at the beginning and then I have a few things I'd like to share. It may take a moment to catch up though, so just thought I'd let you know I'm working on it!


Thanks


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## Catherine602

Wow you are doing all the right things. Please don't be discouraged if you have wide mood swings and erratic behavior from your husband. Keep you wits about you and select the most sensible of your friends to lean on. Let her/ him know that you may be calling frequently and will be emotional. 

Something about you shines through your posts, I think you are much loved by your husband but he missed you and may have become angry for what ever reason. This is not to say that you should give him cheap forgiveness, he must atone and he must own his part in the decent of the relationship as you seem prepared to do. Although he loves you he may not act loving but set boundaries and demand respect. He is that one who destabilized the relationship not you. Trust nothing chichi and recheck. Be prepared that he may still be contacting her it takes the cheater a while to come out of the fantasy. Stay resolute don't allow him to have contact with her and your support at the same time. 

I was thinking that it maybe is not a good idea to throw him out if he if he is still contacting her. Take that up with Affaircare you may want to keep him close to observe and for connivence for child care help, around the house etc. However, he can stay on the couch. stay strong there are trying days ahead but you will make it to the other end better than ever, if that is possible. ))
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## tobio

I have been checking and there is no evidence of any further contact between them. There are a couple of things I don't know atm: if he has worked "there" again since Monday (I think he said he wasn't on Tuesday but I don't know about yesterday or today), and his battered old phone he takes to work, if he may have used that to contact her. There was nothing to show he had when I checked on Tuesday, my understanding is that he only had her number in his new phone and I deleted it from there, couldn't see it saved in his old phone.

I can only assume she wrote her number down and gave it him, so I have no idea what has happened to that.

It's little things like this that spring to mind and bother me. I also saw the website we used to look at engagement rings in the browser history and I felt so angry that he was talking about getting me a ring whilst lusting after her. I just keep wondering, what was he thinking? How much has he messed things up by "only" kissing her? I keep wondering how he went from basically begging my forgiveness on Sunday right after he told me to two days later wanting to leave? I wonder if he was contemplating if I threw him out, what it would be like, and he wanted to "get in there" first... It is obvious he hated not being in control of the situation and I wonder if this came about because of that, he wanted to have some power, maybe his wish to leave wasn't as strong as he made out and it was a considered reaction to regain some control? I don't know.

The other thing that is bothering me... One of the first things I said about how he could make me feel better was to call me from work... He hasn't done that ALL WEEK... I know he gets busy but he's not so busy that he can't call my parents, or sent texts (a couple on Tuesday, in response to me texting him about some money stuff.)

However in other ways he is trying... I have noticed little touches, like when he got in yesterday and my parents were here, walking past me in the kitchen, touched my hip and mouthed, "you ok?" He responds to my touches when we're snuggled up in bed, a hand over my hand, holding my hand, stuff like that. I would like more but I think my mistake in the past has been to almost dismiss little things like that because he hasn't gone the whole hog. I am noticing them and appreciating them, which is why I am reluctant to ask for more right now- I don't want to belittle the efforts he is making. I am thinking rather lots of positive reinforcement when he DOES do stuff might be the way to go?


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## Affaircare

Tobio~

Just so you know, I'm usually write really long replies because I have a lot to say, and I'm going to do my best to keep this to several, shorter replies rather than one, great-big, long one. 

One of the biggest things that strikes me after reading your story is that it doesn't seem like you understand quite how affairs start or "what happens." Now, obviously each affair is a little different and has it's own unique twists and turns...yet after you've been here a while or worked with infidelity a while, I bet you'd start to see that almost all affairs follow a certain script and have many similarities. Thus, I would refer you to an article on the site How Do Most Affairs Start?

The reason suggest that article is because it's relevant. Just so you know, I define infidelity as "giving anything less than 100% of your affection and loyalty to your own spouse...to whom it is due." By this definition, it would seem that your H did begin slipping down that slippery slope and began to give away is affection and loyalty to this OW (Other Woman). It sounds like there were some Love Extinguishers on both sides--and while he was at work, the interest, admiration and appreciation from this OW "caught his attention." It sounds like he was aware they were flirting (his word) and enjoyed the attention so he didn't stop it and figured it would be over Friday...that's that. But a part of him stepped over the line, and to his credit, he didn't lie to your face and rewrite all of your marital history in order to justify continuing the flirting--instead he CAME TO YOU and told you about it. 

I know it may not "feel" like it right now but that actually shows an ENORMOUS amount of character! I guarantee you, there are literally hundreds of people here who would give their right arm if their spouse had come to them and said: "I'm starting to slip up and I don't want to. I already went one step over the line. Can we work on fixing this?" rather than lying to their face, sneaking, hiding, blaming them, saying "you're nuts" or "you're imagining things", hurting the kids, and abandoning the family and marriage for a fantasy. I know this for a FACT!! 

What I see that concerns me is that your husband made a mistake--a pretty serious one--and then came to you to say, "We are in trouble. Can we fix this?" and your response, I think, has been to make him move out to his mom's so you can have space, to sort of "punish" him by acting like maybe you won't take him back, and to demand expectation of him like begging you to take him back or being all romantic "to win you back." 

The choice is completely up to you--but I would warn you that continuing to act in this way will probably destroy your marriage. One thing that is deeply VITAL after first discovering infidelity is to do nothing until you can get ahold of your emotions a bit and make decisions WITH YOUR HEAD...then ACT based on those purposeful decisions. All too often what people do is freak out, react out of emotion, engage in more Love Extinguishers, and then when their DS (Disloyal Spouse) is defensive, react out of emotion again. One of the very SMARTEST things you can do is to take some time to gather your wits back, and make clear-headed, calm, rational DECISIONS...and then even if the DS is defensive or emotional, you ACT based on the choices you've made not on "how you feel."

.... I'll write more on what to do if you've made the conscious CHOICE and DECISION to try to fix the marriage a little later. For now, how about if you digest that and read those linked pages, making sure to focus on your side of things, not what "he" did. Okay? Also if you have questions about how affairs start and Love Extinguishers, please ask away!


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## Catherine602

Yea the expert is in the house. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

Catherine602 said:


> Yea the expert is in the house.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I actually agree with this post.

I hope AC can correct some of the stridency this thread produced.

After all, she is in the pantheon.


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## Conrad

One general question.

I've had relationships where women have insisted they want "total honesty and openness"

What do you think happens when they get it?

Has the advice here increased the chance Tobio gets honesty in the future?


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## tobio

Wow.

I came to read this after having a MASSIVE argument with OH. We went from having some very positive conversation earlier about how we can think about moving forward, to him nearly driving us into the back of a lorry. Seriously- he scared me, he was SO angry. Angry because he mentioned the girl in question wasn't around, had gone back to her home town for a visit- he'd told me he had to pop into the site where she'd been to pick up some materials but she wasn't there. I thought about it and thought "hey- how did he know that? Did he talk to her this week for her to tell him?" And asked him- cue a HORRIBLE argument, he's sick of me asking him questions, feeling like he's being watched and checked up on, and why can't I just believe what he is sayiing?

Well of COURSE I can't believe him. He is having trouble grasping this- he thinks he says something, therefore I should trust what he is saying. Now it is ME with the problem he thinks.

The thing is, I think for the most part, he IS telling the truth. He answers, I think, ok, I can believe that. But for him, the trouble is the fact I had to ask.

And so I read your post *Affaircare* and it came at the right time. Because despite me feeling SO FRUSTRATED at how he could do what he did, and how he doesn't understand why I don't trust him, you are right. I am driving him away. He has been trying, and I have glossed over his efforts, somehow, whilst trying NOT to do that very thing.

Ironically THIS is my part in how we got to this situation. In his words, he felt like he was doing everything he could for the family, yet what he did was never enough. He never truly felt I appreciated what he does. I DO- I never didn't- but my constant demands for MORE were what he heard over the words of appreciation.

So as you said, he meets a hot girl at work, who thinks he's handsome, she flirts, makes him feel good about himself... He messes up, feels guilty, confesses, I react like I did, and instead of coming together to work it out, I PUSH HIM AWAY AND MAKE HIM FEEL BAD FOR TELLING ME. He gets sent off and ONLY THEN starts to think, hang on, what *would* it be like on my own? He has said he didn't have any intention of wanting to move out but felt like it might be his only option so started to seriously think about it. Eek.

I WANT to fix this. I just don't know how. We are booked in for counselling which is a start. There is one issue in particular that having talked about it earlier, is going to actually be very difficult to resolve- his role as stepdad. He is finding it extremely hard and draining, holds a LOT of resentment over the fact that I had kids before we met- it's complicated- he loves the stepkids, he doesn't resent THEM, he just feels sad and torn and confused a lot of the time. For him that's the biggie. For me it's the lack of affection and the constant fight over him doing his share of getting up with the kids at the weekend. I think my issues can be more easily worked on, I feel a lot more prepared to meet him halfway with the very fact he has shown over the last few days that even if it is hard for him to initiate affection, he will respond to me more because he knows I need that, especially now. His are a lot deeper and serious I think.

One thing- he keeps saying *I* don't need to change. It's not me that's the problem. It's him. But I *know* that's not true- and I only just realise I have MADE him think that. I feel truly awful- he says his problems aren't because of ME, I am lovely the way I am (I don't feel lovely, or beautiful like he said earlier- I feel like a second-rate comparison at the mo.) I made him feel like he just wasn't good enough.

So yes- what now?


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## Trenton

Hi, AF, the difference in Tobio's case is that her husband left to his Mom's house on his own. The other difference is that she's been pulling the bulk of the weight at home with little ones and has been trying to get her husband to do more even prior to this blip on the radar.

The reason I feels this makes a difference is because Tobio has been trying to set boundaries but her husband refuses to abide by them as well as steps across other boundaries.

I get what you're saying and I know it makes sense but what if Tobio's not getting what she needs from the relationship prior and even more so now? I feel like she's not really in any type of bargaining position because her husband doesn't seem to show that he cares at all what she is going through.

I know I'm all about fair generally and so this bothers me. He crosses boundaries, isn't the best husband or father, starts on a slope towards an affair, leaves carefree to his Mom's house, threatens to leave for good, then comes back.

This is not negative emotional manipulation? It seems like it to me.


----------



## Trenton

Conrad said:


> I actually agree with this post.
> 
> I hope AC can correct some of the stridency this thread produced.
> 
> After all, she is in the pantheon.


Do you think we're too loudly supportive of Tobio's perspective?

I wonder often, MNG, he gets full support and his wife is considered villainousness. Do you think it's a double standard or that women have more to lose and so should be more docile in their approach at reconciliation?


----------



## tobio

Conrad said:


> One general question.
> 
> I've had relationships where women have insisted they want "total honesty and openness"
> 
> What do you think happens when they get it?
> 
> Has the advice here increased the chance Tobio gets honesty in the future?


I getcha.

My problem lay/lies in WHEN the honesty SHOULD have come. IMO it was when he realised he had feelings for her. He knew that before the kiss. Had I known that then, then maybe we could have started to deal with the depth of our problems then. But in withholding this info- even though, like Affaircare said, he thought it was harmless, he'd only see her until Friday- he ended up in a situation that we now have to deal with ON TOP of the existing problems. No, I don't believe he would have done it if things weren't bad anyway. But as well as the original issues, we now have to deal with the mistrust, secrecy, and me dealing with knowing he is capable of that when I trusted him implicitly before.

He is upstairs putting one of the kids to bed. I plan to sit him down and apologise for how I have treated him. It will be hard but I think it will only benefit us in the long-run- it certainly can't make things worse that's for sure!


----------



## Conrad

I'll be willing to wager that if you give him an unqualified apology - with no conditions attached - and acknowledge that you have helped make it worse.....

You guys will be at the verge of a fresh start.


----------



## MarriedWifeInLove

Trenton said:


> Do you think we're too loudly supportive of Tobio's perspective?
> 
> I wonder often, MNG, he gets full support and his wife is considered villainousness. Do you think it's a double standard or that women have more to lose and so should be more docile in their approach at reconciliation?


I think a lot of women are more docile in their approach to issues in a relationship, actual divorce and reconciliation issues.

It can be for a myriad of reasons:

- Financial - the man of the house is the sole breadwinner
- Children - want their children to grow up in a two-parent household
- Shame/Fear - family has never divorced, don't think they can make it on their own
- Education - no higher education or set of skills in which to support themselves and/or children

Lots of reasons that I think women stay in relationships that are intolerable or filled with abuse and cruelty.

And it's very sad.


----------



## Conrad

Trenton said:


> Do you think we're too loudly supportive of Tobio's perspective?
> 
> I wonder often, MNG, he gets full support and his wife is considered villainousness. Do you think it's a double standard or that women have more to lose and so should be more docile in their approach at reconciliation?


This is a great question.

I think MNG was/is likely to get honesty in a different way than Tobio was/is.

I think it relates to our fundamental gender differences.

We often start lying to protect. It's a mistake, but if the "reward" for being honest is nagging and endless recrimination?

It may look like a double standard on the surface, but I think it's about effectiveness.


----------



## Trenton

I suppose I understand but very reluctantly.


----------



## Catherine602

Tobio 

I think things are going well. I would PM Affaircare for any advice right now. She understands how these problems develop and how to shepard them to a healthy conclusion. We all mean well, but many of us, including myself, are operating on emotions having to do with our own issues. 

PM Aftercare if you need some courage to get through. The fact that you are both communicating and emotional is good. He is not shut down and neither are you. 

You are doing so well in recognizing and attempting to reverse the trend of placing the blame on one person. Thank goodness he is telling you and more importantly you are hearing him. 

How long have things been going south? Many, many months so, you guys have a lot to catch up on. 

So do post to express your self but be very selective about the advice you take. I think the highest quality advice that you will get is that of Affaircare. 

From where I sit, things seem to be going as can be anticipated, keep reading and learning and expressing.


----------



## Affaircare

Trenton said:


> Hi, AF, the difference in Tobio's case is that her husband left to his Mom's house on his own. The other difference is that she's been pulling the bulk of the weight at home with little ones and has been trying to get her husband to do more even prior to this blip on the radar.


Okay actually this is a really good question and I think one that almost everyone asks themselves at one time or another. She thinks she's doing most of the work (at home and maybe in the relationship) and I will bet you MONEY that he feels the same way (at work and in the relationship). After all, (in his head) he pounds the pavement to and from work every morning, engages his mind and body for 8 or more solid hours of hard work, comes home and without even getting a rest, all the house issues and kids are dumped on him, then there's homework and bath/bed time...and from what he can see, she was home all day didn't get anything picked up, had to make dinner and do the dishes, and she's crabby about that! :wtf: PLUS, he's supposed to be all romantic when she does nothing but tell him what he's doing wrong, hasn't acted like she DESIRES him in forever, and would rather wear sweats, Uggs and an oversized Tee. Exactly WHAT work is she putting in again? 

My point in mentioning this is that we all know the "job" of a SAHM is one that is unrecognized, thankless, and 24/7...and yet that does not necessarily mean that she is doing all the work and he is doing none...or that he is doing all the work and she is doing none. My pretty educated guess is that being new parents they probably BOTH feel like they are doing it all by themselves--feel the other isn't holding up their end--and feel like this really is not working out for them. 



> The reason I feels this makes a difference is because Tobio has been trying to set boundaries but her husband refuses to abide by them as well as steps across other boundaries.


Actually you know what? That is a very common misconception. When a person sets a boundary, it is a rule about their own SELF and what they will or will not accept in their life. A boundary has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with "making a rule that another person has to live by." I realize it may sound like a really thin thread of a difference, but actually the difference is HUGE. 

For example, what if I said I had the boundary that from this moment forward you had to show me every message that came into your cell phone, give me your passwords to everything (email, forums, facebook, etc.) because that's what I "needed" to believe you--otherwise I think you, Trenton, are a liar and degenerate. What are the chances you would say, "Oh I am completely willing to accept those boundaries"? I'm just guessing but I bet that would be *NIL TO NONE!!!* Know why? Because by making rules about YOU and what you HAVE TO DO I am not setting a boundary...I am controlling you.

Now let's say I said to you, "You know Trenton, I have reason to believe you've been deceiving me all along. In my life, I choose not to have people in my life who are deceptive and secretive and drama queens...women who stab people in the back. Now this is just me, but I have a little rule I hold myself to that in order to be true, deep friends with someone I need to have access to their email, cellphone and facebook, especially after I've had reason to believe they might have deceived me. So that's what I need to maintain our friendship. Are you willing to do that to continue being friends? Or do you have a reasonable alternative that you are willing to do? I'd love to consider it." That's altogether different isn't it? That's a boundary. That is me telling you what I need to let you in my life and be deeply close with you, and it give you 100% freedom to control yourself. You can say you're willing to do that, say you are not willing to do that, or say what you are willing to do as an alternative so that I can think about it. 

TELLING SOMEONE WHAT THEY CAN AND CAN NOT DO--making it so that they "Have To" do something--is not a boundary. That is control. And to be completely blunt, that is often one of the culprits involved in making marriages vulnerable to infidelity. 



> I get what you're saying and I know it makes sense but what if Tobio's not getting what she needs from the relationship prior and even more so now? I feel like she's not really in any type of bargaining position because her husband doesn't seem to show that he cares at all what she is going through.


Okay again I get this too. Until his affair, really I don't think Tobio's husband knew of a good way to really GRAB her attention and get through to her either. It's really hard to figure out: "Hey honey. I need you to stop pointing out my every flaw and making me do things your way. I'm a grown up I know how to stack the dishwasher. I need you to admire me like you used to when we were dating." Honestly? I don't think most people are this self-aware...that they can put it right out there like that. Plus, most folks concentrate on the stuff "to do" like "be romantic" or "have sex with me" rather than concentrating on the stuff "NOT TO DO" like "please stop criticizing" or "please don't ignore me." Those things...the "NOT TO DO" things...are the things that really tear a marriage apart. I mean, think of it this way: suppose your own Hubby (H) wasn't particularly romantic in the way that means "romance" to you, but he didn't keep score, find fault, control you, hold onto pass arguments, sneak around and hide stuff, treat you with disrespect, abandon physical attractiveness, stay unemployed, hide debt, overspend, give up and get too comfortable, initiate irritating habits, give you the cold shoulder, attack you, act passive-aggressive, or make your home feel unsafe? It may not be "ideal" but it certainly wouldn't be too bad...AND you could easily see your way to at least enjoying each other if not actually "falling back in love." But if he DOES continue those behaviors, but also give you roses, chocolates and love poems all day...exactly how meaningful would they be? Would he ever win you? No because every loving thing he does is swept away with all that unloving behavior. 

So how do you change this dynamic? #1 you both made a promise when you married to always consider another person with every decision/choice you make...so decide together now that rather than thinking of yourself and "I'm not getting my needs met" you CHOOSE to start thinking of your spouse and meeting THEIR needs to the best of your ability. (Shoot, lots of folks have to find out what their spouse's needs are! That's why we have the Love Kindler Questionnaire and why there is that Emotional Needs Questionnaire on MarriageBuilders. ) But even before that it's time to look in the mirror, stop thinking about what your spouse is or isn't doing, and say "What things am *I* responsible for that I've been getting lax about? What things do *I* do to contribute to this Gordian Knot of a mess in our marriage? And what things do *I* need to do to become the man/woman I have the potential to be?" This is why I address the person who's here, because the fact is Tobio's hubby has some work to do, but I can't change him. What I CAN do is work with Tobio to see what she can and can not change about herself to have a more likely result for a better marriage.

So if she's not getting her needs met, I would say that both of them should #1 commit to rebuilding love in this relationship (not looking outside) and then #2 commit to being on the same side on the same team. Rather than fighting AGAINST each other, pulling oars in the opposite directions and going nowhere...they need to figure out how to pull on those oars together in the same direction! Then it will move forward and grow!!



> I know I'm all about fair generally and so this bothers me. He crosses boundaries, isn't the best husband or father, starts on a slope towards an affair, leaves carefree to his Mom's house, threatens to leave for good, then comes back.
> 
> This is not negative emotional manipulation? It seems like it to me.


Well it's not positive emotional support, I'll give ya that! But here's the truth that most people don't want to consider. He could decide today "I'm done with this. I'm leaving my wife and all the stresses of kids and she can deal with it." Now that would be pretty darn selfish, but people do it every day. So to act like he's not able to cross boundaries (not really boundaries but I'm repeating you), be a bad husband and father, have an affair, and dump them ... all is unrealistic. He can. He might. Further, he could be hit by a dumptruck tonight on his way home from work, and she'll lose him that way. 

She also may decide she's had enough and leave him...although she probably would not be able to leave her kids with him. We've all been here long enough to know stories about "crazy exes" who do exactly that! In addition, she could have a stroke as a complication from the childbirth and fall over dead at home, and he'd lose her that way.

So when it comes down to it--he could leave today, or she could leave today. He could die today, or she could die today. There really IS NOT a guarantee about him being a good man, good husband or good father (and vice versa for her too). SOOOOO...I personally suggest that rather than having expectations and being controlling, that the solution is to look at your partner and say, "Today may be my very last day with you. Today I make the deliberate, purposeful choice to have you in my life and to act in loving ways towards you. Today my actions will reflect my choice to be with you and walk beside you while you walk beside me." 

Now...Mr. Tobio most definitely was not thinking of Tobio when he allowed his ego to be stroked by another woman. He was not acting in loving ways or honoring his promise. But he did also come to her and say "I did this and I want to fix US." So she can choose to be mad, drive him away, give in to the crazy hormones, and get revenge for the mistake...OR... she can choose to be merciful, give him a safe place to be imperfect, recognize hormones can have an affect on emotions, and decide to ACT LOVING. She doesn't have to return his negative emotional stuff with her own negative emotional stuff. It's kind of human nature to do so...but we're calling for heroics here!


----------



## Trenton

AC, thank you for answering me in such a clear and unbiased way. I love what you've written and you have clarified so much for me. You're so right!


----------



## tobio

I too think that is an awesome answer.

I did apologise to him. I explained that with hindsight, my reaction was wrong, and that in fact I will always appreciate the fact he told me what happened. I said I know there are thousands of guys out there who wouldn't have. I also said my reaction to send him away because I needed space- wrong also, I admitted that it was a kneejerk reaction intended to punish him and that wasn't a good thing to do.

I also said that my choice to forgive him, in my mind didn't merit him having to feel constantly checked up on and in truthfulness *I* don't want to feel like that all the time. I am pledging to myself to stop the behind-the-back checking up- and I KNOW how hard this will be. I firmly believe he isn't a bad guy. I believe he is a good guy who messed up and knows it. I may feel the need to ask him questions for a short while but I feel this feeling will pass eventually.

Very tired now but will prob come back tomorrow if I think of anything else.


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## Catherine602

Thank you thank you Affaircare for being so even handed. It is obvious that your goal is to preserve the bond between loving spouses. 

When I read what you write here, I feel foolish for looking at relationships as a battle for acknowledgement and respect. There is a principal here as exemplified by your rowing analogy, you don't punch holes into the hull of your own ship just to prove a point. 

I am going to print this out and read it over and over again, maybe something will sink in. Glad you are among us. :}}
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Trenton

Catherine602 said:


> Thank you thank you Affaircare for being so even handed. It is obvious that your goal is to preserve the bond between loving spouses.
> 
> When I read what you write here, I feel foolish for looking at relationships as a battle for acknowledgement and repect. There is a principal here as exemplified by your rowing analogy, you don't punch holes into the hull of your own ship just to prove a point.
> 
> I am going to print this out and read it over and over again, maybe something will sink in. Glad you are among us. :}}
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Ditto 

OK, I won't print it but I promise to remember it.

The goal is a happy, meaningful relationship that takes both perspectives in mind unless our own boundaries are crossed to a point where we recognize we no longer want to be in a partnership with the other person. If the later is the case then we better be ready to face a life without that partner because our boundaries are our own and set for ourselves rather than to control our partner's behavior.


----------



## Conrad

tobio said:


> I too think that is an awesome answer.
> 
> I did apologise to him. I explained that with hindsight, my reaction was wrong, and that in fact I will always appreciate the fact he told me what happened. I said I know there are thousands of guys out there who wouldn't have. I also said my reaction to send him away because I needed space- wrong also, I admitted that it was a kneejerk reaction intended to punish him and that wasn't a good thing to do.
> 
> I also said that my choice to forgive him, in my mind didn't merit him having to feel constantly checked up on and in truthfulness *I* don't want to feel like that all the time. I am pledging to myself to stop the behind-the-back checking up- and I KNOW how hard this will be. I firmly believe he isn't a bad guy. I believe he is a good guy who messed up and knows it. I may feel the need to ask him questions for a short while but I feel this feeling will pass eventually.
> 
> Very tired now but will prob come back tomorrow if I think of anything else.


Great work Tobio!

It takes a wholesome strong spirit to look inside and acknowledge when they've overreacted.

Especially when they are afraid.


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## Affaircare

tobio said:


> ... I did apologise to him. I explained that with hindsight, my reaction was wrong, and that in fact I will always appreciate the fact he told me what happened. I said I know there are thousands of guys out there who wouldn't have. I also said my reaction to send him away because I needed space- wrong also, I admitted that it was a kneejerk reaction intended to punish him and that wasn't a good thing to do.


Now Tobio, just for you I would like to remind you of something. Both of those actions, whilst maybe not the very BEST reactions you could have had, were very understandable and probably human nature. When someone hurts you, the gut reaction is to strike back and/or protect yourself. So don't beat yourself up or wallow in feeling bad. It's past. It's done. You've apologized. I assume he's accepted. So it's like it never happened...move to tomorrow. 



> I also said that my choice to forgive him, in my mind didn't merit him having to feel constantly checked up on and in truthfulness *I* don't want to feel like that all the time. I am pledging to myself to stop the behind-the-back checking up- and I KNOW how hard this will be. I firmly believe he isn't a bad guy. I believe he is a good guy who messed up and knows it. I may feel the need to ask him questions for a short while but I feel this feeling will pass eventually.


Okay, NOTE TO SELF. I have a thread in "Coping with Infidelity" that is a sticky: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...isloyal-you-being-controlling.html#post238370 In this thread is a pretty good discussion about the difference between snooping/controlling and transparency. Now, one common misconception people have is that when a DS has an affair, that the "betray your trust" or that you "don't trust them." Actually you do trust the DS--you trust them TO LIE. What has been betrayed is your trust IN THEIR HONESTY. So just to be utterly clear, what you want here is not to be a snoopy, controlling Loyal Spouse (LS) but to have a transparent DS. As I say on that thread: "Transparency is when a DS offers their email, passwords, chat logs and FB voluntarily to show the LS that what they say and what they do match. Transparency would be if the DS allowed the LS to see their real thoughts and feelings, even if they were not "complimentary" of the LS. Transparency is the DS deciding to do that by their own choice! So if they are not willing to offer these things, controlling them is not the way to build a healthy marriage! All that does is build a marriage where one is the parent and one is the child!!" 

Thus here's my suggestion. It is reasonable to tell your H how you feel and what you think, and then respectfully ask for what you would like. I call this technique the W-T-F-S method: 

*W*hen you...
I *T*hink...
I *F*eel...
*S*ooo I'd like to request ...

Here's an example of what yours might sound like: 

When you told me about kissing that other girl
I thought everything I built my world on was falling apart
I felt angry, sad, sick, and betrayed all at the same time. I also felt like the one man I trusted to be honest to me had lied. 
So I want to rebuild my faith in your honesty. In order to do that, it would be very helpful to me if you let me see your cellphone voluntarily just as I volunteer to let you look at my cellphone every night as soon as you get home. It would also help if we could both willingly share passwords to our emails--and yes I mean I would be willing to let you see mine too and open myself up to you that way. Lastly it would help if we both agreed to have the freedom to ask each other about things we see that scare us or seem unusual...for clarification. I'm willing to do for you precisely what I am asking of you--are you willing to do it for me too? (If not, what are you willing to do to rebuild my faith in your honesty?)"


----------



## tobio

Conrad- he did accept my apology. He's that kind of person, he'll just be able to step forward from that now.

Affaircare- I read what you said about the transparency. Now, here I think we're going to have a problem. Whilst he "agreed" to show me his FB, email, phones and phone records, it was that- me basically TELLING him he did this or it was a dealbreaker.

I spent Sunday evening looking through things- at that point he did in fairness bring TO me the laptop, gave me his phones to check, and allowed me later to register his new phone online so I could check his call and text records from his provider. I think he saw that as me purging myself, and that would be that.

However, he has seen that isn't going to be it. I have accessed his FB, hotmail and phone records since, as well as looking through his phone when he hasn't been with me. This for him is too much. He says it has to stop now.

I don't WANT to feel like I need to check. But I do. I am coming to a point already where I feel fairly certain there is no further contact between them, but there is still a little part of me that feels I need to check. And I KNOW that this in no uncertain terms is NOT ok with him.

How do I handle this? Do I "reboot" with your W-T-F-S? He HONESTLY thinks I have no reason to not trust him, he says he's "not like that", he "wouldn't do that sort of thing", he's "not that kind of person"- all of which have come out of his own mouth at some point this week. It's like he thinks I've got him mixed up with someone else!


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## Conrad

Tobio,

I think you do re-boot with the WTFS statement.

It will let him know where you are at.

This situation won't truly be "over" until you can go back to "trusting him" instead of "trusting him to lie".

If you want to copy and paste AC's paragraph, it could help him understand.

He gets big points for confessing - but there's still some damage. He'll be man enough to own up to that.


----------



## tobio

Conrad said:


> Tobio,
> 
> I think you do re-boot with the WTFS statement.
> 
> It will let him know where you are at.
> 
> This situation won't truly be "over" until you can go back to "trusting him" instead of "trusting him to lie".
> 
> If you want to copy and paste AC's paragraph, it could help him understand.
> 
> He gets big points for confessing - but there's still some damage. He'll be man enough to own up to that.


I have been thinking about this. Today has been a "good" day mostly. He phoned me from work at lunch, just to see how I was. I had sent him a text this morning, saying, "I love you very, very much. I know it might not feel like it from some of the things I've said, but I do x" to which he replied, "me too"- that is like an emotional essay for him

He has been noticing things I have been doing for myself- kick-starting the gym ("is this because of what's happened?"), a new outfit and a bit of make-up ("are you wearing make-up?" and some funny looks I have caught him doing- I haven't worked out what these looks mean yet), and one of his favourites for dinner ("you don't have to do this to be nice, you haven't done anything wrong.")

Last night when he mentioned that the girl wasn't around when he had to visit that site, he started talking about how she didn't just work there, "she moves around to different centres, and apparently she has a lot of trouble, patients can be real troublemakers, and..." Cue me, "please: just STOP TALKING." Cue him (looking down, embarrassed) "sorry." So safe to say, yes, he is actually as clueless as he makes out.

Oh and a couple of other things. This came to me completely randomly when I wasn't thinking about what happened. I remembered something he said last week, which if I remember correctly was before stuff happened. I think I'd been teasing him about this girl liking him (yes, this is how trusting I was.) He asked- and I remember thinking it was odd at the time because of how abruptly he said it, and the fact he actually said it, "do you trust me?"

"Yes I do," I said. Then, thinking I should say more to affirm how much I *did* trust him, I said about how no matter what other troubles we have, I never felt worried about trusting him, completely, 100%. This is really bothering me. I think it ties in with my concerns over his motives behind taking her number etc.

The other thing... I have noticed he is mentioning some odd things about himself. He admitted yesterday he had been thinking about things and said he probably needed to tone down his "strutting about" at work. What he mean by this... Well. He's in the construction industry, and I think it is safe to say him and his work mates attract a lot of female attention. He said basically he plays it up a bit at work and he basically... shouldn't. Ok.

But then there are little jokey comments as well, a couple of times in the last couple of days he has said about being able to attract female attention. Well yes he can- he is an attractive looking guy- but I am not sure why all of a sudden he is feeling the need to say stuff like this? Clueless he may be, but what on earth is going on underneath the surface because I can't work it out?


----------



## tobio

And one more thing...



Affaircare said:


> Now...Mr. Tobio most definitely was not thinking of Tobio when he allowed his ego to be stroked by another woman. He was not acting in loving ways or honoring his promise. But he did also come to her and say "I did this and I want to fix US." So she can choose to be mad, drive him away, give in to the crazy hormones, and get revenge for the mistake...OR... she can choose to be merciful, give him a safe place to be imperfect, recognize hormones can have an affect on emotions, and decide to ACT LOVING. She doesn't have to return his negative emotional stuff with her own negative emotional stuff. It's kind of human nature to do so...but we're calling for heroics here!


Ok. I get the idea of acting in a loving, forgiving way, giving him a safe place, and everything else you said. And I know you said you can only deal with the person who is here (ie me!) But what I don't get... is how do *I* even start with dealing with how I feel as a result of what he did?

I am doing stuff for me. I have enrolled at the gym, bought some new outfits, all in a feelgood vein. But there is no escaping the fact that right now: my self-esteem is pretty much near zero. I feel ugly, boring, uninteresting, despite his many attempts to tell me I shouldn't feel bad about myself, it wasn't anything I did... but it obviously was. I completely acknowledge that within a lifetime together, each person will be attracted to other people, yes... but he wasn't just attracted to her, he had _feelings_ for her. I feel like a drabby second-best. I keep thinking, did he think she was prettier, had a better body, stuff like that...No it's not constructive but that is how I feel.

I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing to help me get through that. I can deal with him, but how do I deal with ME? I feel so bitter and angry at him for it. His words feel empty to me when he tells me, "don't feel ugly, you are beautiful"- I feel like, so what- it didn't make a difference before that you thought I was beautiful/amazing/giving so why does it make a difference now?

Is it ok to say to him sometimes, I want some space? And I mean this, not in the reactionary way I did when he first told me. But in a, I am finding how I feel about what you did and how it has affected me, hard to deal with right now, and I want to be on my own for a little while sort of way. I love him so much but I keep finding myself looking at him and thinking, I hate you. I hate you for what you have done and how you have made me feel.

Also- if he *were* here- what would you be saying to him about how I am feeling? What is his part in getting through it?


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## Affaircare

Hey Tobio~ I just walked in with groceries in tow and I'm going to take a moment, unpack them, read while I drink some coffee maybe, and then reply. So I'm working on it. 


P.S. You ask some GREAT questions!


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## Conrad

Affaircare said:


> Hey Tobio~ I just walked in with groceries in tow and I'm going to take a moment, unpack them, read while I drink some coffee maybe, and then reply. So I'm working on it.
> 
> 
> P.S. You ask some GREAT questions!


It's super real - and radically honest.

No agenda at all - except how to deal with herself.


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## Catherine602

tobio said:


> And one more thing...
> 
> 
> 
> Ok. I get the idea of acting in a loving, forgiving way, giving him a safe place, and everything else you said. And I know you said you can only deal with the person who is here (ie me!) But what I don't get... is how do *I* even start with dealing with how I feel as a result of what he did?
> 
> I am doing stuff for me. I have enrolled at the gym, bought some new outfits, all in a feelgood vein. But there is no escaping the fact that right now: my self-esteem is pretty much near zero. I feel ugly, boring, uninteresting, despite his many attempts to tell me I shouldn't feel bad about myself, it wasn't anything I did... but it obviously was. I completely acknowledge that within a lifetime together, each person will be attracted to other people, yes... but he wasn't just attracted to her, he had _feelings_ for her. I feel like a drabby second-best. I keep thinking, did he think she was prettier, had a better body, stuff like that...No it's not constructive but that is how I feel.
> 
> I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing to help me get through that. I can deal with him, but how do I deal with ME? I feel so bitter and angry at him for it. His words feel empty to me when he tells me, "don't feel ugly, you are beautiful"- I feel like, so what- it didn't make a difference before that you thought I was beautiful/amazing/giving so why does it make a difference now?
> 
> Is it ok to say to him sometimes, I want some space? And I mean this, not in the reactionary way I did when he first told me. But in a, I am finding how I feel about what you did and how it has affected me, hard to deal with right now, and I want to be on my own for a little while sort of way. I love him so much but I keep finding myself looking at him and thinking, I hate you. I hate you for what you have done and how you have made me feel.
> 
> Also- if he *were* here- what would you be saying to him about how I am feeling? What is his part in getting through it?


This is my biggest concern with the advice that you are giving Affaircare, it is geared towards the loyal spouse doing all of the work to make the disloyal spouse feel good and loved. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't the he be doing as much work as she is? Why is she required to stuff her justified feeling of mistrust, fractured self esteem, and anger while daubing over the person who caused it. 

How is this going to work, she will be able to be nicey nice for maybe a few more days but then what? How long can she keep her feelings in so he does not feel bad and go away? 

I have been thinking about this and it seems that the marriage is an entity that has to survive regardless of the feelings people involved. If one person has to give cheap forgiveness and never get to express her pain just to keep the person who brought on these problems feeling good, what kind of marriage is she going for here. This is inauthentic because she is angry and hates him but is being counciled to just move on it means nothing. It means a lot to her - look at how it's made her feel? 

This is my view and bear in mind that I have absolutely no experience or success in saving marriages. True forgiveness is based on the actions and work put in to the relationship by the person who transgressed not the person who has been hurt. The requirement that the hurt person spdo all of the work is not humanly possible and I cannot see how this will lead to re- establish a new relationship. Her husband is dictating the terms of the marriage she takes it or leaves it. 

I read a book that I downloaded from the iPhone/iPad app IBook entitled how can I forgive you" by Janet Abraham. I use it to go thruoght the process of forgiving my husband for problems that we ha. It was one of the best and midst reasonable books that I read. It presents the concept atonement - the disloyal works for forgiveness by going through the pain with the person they hurt. They commiserate and let the person know that they hurt as much as the person they hurt because the love they feel makes them empathetic. With out that there is no forgiveness just toleration until the next crisis. She builds up so much resentment that she has an affaire or divorces him or stays for convience until she can get out. But it is not humbly possible to love someone who minimizes the hurt they cause because you can never trust them again.

I don't think her husband get's how much he hurt her he has no empathy a requirement for true intimacy and he is likely to do it again since it is no big deal to him and he minimizes her pain. To me this is no good and from T standpoint it is no good. What she is being told is - if you want this to work you have to change and deny your feelings so that he feels loved. I guess if she wants to live like that it OK. Is this one man worth it? Are there so many other good things in this relationship that she would be asking too much to expect him to care enough to not get him self entangled with another girl when he needs to feel good, to be careful about his wife's feelings, to understand her deep hurt an anxiety at this easily date. I don't know I guess T will have to decide as she goes along. 

I have an evil vindictive mind but with this attitude I'd make a friend with a 20 something yo guy with a six pack in the gym. Maybe get a personal trainer and tell you hubby he is a friend. I wonder what he would feel. I would do this if I were planning on exiting the relationship if things did not change, the outcome of this is unpredictable. 

T see if you can download that book, I may be off base here but I feel you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes

Catherine,
Your post is spot on. She should shelve her feelings in order to prop up his? He is the disloyal. He should be doing everything in his power to prop her up, which it doesn't appear that he his. He is rug sweeping and getting angry when she brings it up. Those are not the actions of a remorseful spouse, those are the actions of a self entitled one who will continue on his merry way. 
You are also spot on with action. Words mean nothing, action is where it is at. He is only saying words.


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## Catherine602

Brennan I have read this advice many times and then it followed up by predictions of a new and stronger relationship. But I don't know how they would get past this to the new close relationship. Unless she was some how convinced that her feelings of hurt and anger were unjustified and unfair to her husband. If she could forgive, trust him again and go on to be a good loving wife as if nothing happened then I guess it would work. As long as she was careful not to let him feel any of the stress of kids and the normal perturbation of a long- term relationship. if she made sure she did not ask him for any more than he is willing to give and give him an over abundance of love, sex, respect, did I say sex? 

What kind of woman would she have to be to do that? Saint T?? I could be wrong probably am.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Affaircare

> I have been thinking about this. Today has been a "good" day mostly. He phoned me from work at lunch, just to see how I was. I had sent him a text this morning, saying, "I love you very, very much. I know it might not feel like it from some of the things I've said, but I do x" to which he replied, "me too"- that is like an emotional essay for him.


LOL My own Dear Hubby is also one of those "emotional essay" kind of guys. He rarely says flowery, affectionate things, but tends more to SHOW me by hugging me when I wake up, having coffee ready so all I have to do it push the button, working hard all day, doing laundry or dishes or some little chore, and wanting to spend all night with me. This is one reason why we suggest that couples just starting recovery go to our  Quizzes Page and take the 5 Love Languages quiz--one for him and one for her. We discovered that all along he had been saying "I love you" but in a way that I didn't understand or interpret as "love". He's an "Acts of Service" kind of guy...can you tell? 

If you two take the quiz and find out he is Love Language A and you are Love Language B...then that's a whole night of talking about what means "I love you" to you and helping the other person understand YOU. It's also a whole night where you get to hear him express what means love to him. My GUESS would be that if he's in construction and "struts it" a little, that he probably likes some Words of Affirmation and would DEARLY love to be able to strut in front of you and get that reaction you used to have when you saw his bulging muscles.  



> He has been noticing things I have been doing for myself- kick-starting the gym ("is this because of what's happened?"), a new outfit and a bit of make-up ("are you wearing make-up?" and some funny looks I have caught him doing- I haven't worked out what these looks mean yet), and one of his favourites for dinner ("you don't have to do this to be nice, you haven't done anything wrong.")


Oh? It seems like he is noticing you a tad. I personally say "Work with that." When he asks "Is this because of what happened" just tell him the real truth--maybe that a small part of the mix but in the big scale, no yu want to be firm and slim again. When he askes about a new outfit or makeup be a tease a little! Remember how to do that? Flirt with him. Bat those baby blues at him and say "This ol' thang?"  or "My my that's not makeup you just make me flush with fevah!" LOL And for dinner, when he says "You don't have to do this to be nice" just tell him that you know you don't have to do it but you choose to do it anyway. He may be wondering if this is all some sort of "fake change" to manipulate him or whatnot, so whatever you do decide to do, do it because it makes you a better woman and is truly what you want to do and the kind of woman you want to be. I don't know about you, but I really honestly DO want to look STUNNING to my husband. I want him to see me come into a room and his face says: "WOW! She's here!" Right? And I know it's hard to have little kids and get enthusiastic about "looking good," but what I do is have nice-fitting jeans (not tight..but you know..curvy), a complimentary low-cut blouse and my hair done nicely. Some days I get mascara and lipstick and some days not, but that is just me. Other ladies I know are not caught DEAD without some makeup! LOL But that way you don't have tons of "some day when I fit these" clothes, you can still chase after the kids a little in jeans, but you're also still working it a little...right?



> Last night when he mentioned that the girl wasn't around when he had to visit that site, he started talking about how she didn't just work there, "she moves around to different centres, and apparently she has a lot of trouble, patients can be real troublemakers, and..." Cue me, "please: just STOP TALKING." Cue him (looking down, embarrassed) "sorry." So safe to say, yes, he is actually as clueless as he makes out.


It has been my experience that men are brilliant when it comes to logical, academic or rational thinking...and lovingly clueless when it comes to emotional or relationship thinking. I'm not trying to be mean or say that is ALL MEN...but what I've learned is that is usually goes a million miles with them just to be told out loud what works and what doesn't. Hints, suggestions, and "glances" DO NOT USUALLY WORK and then we women say "He has to have known, because I threw him a look that would kill"...yet on his side, he didn't hear the hint, never saw "the glance" and is 100% clueless. So here's my suggestion. When he's being clueless, rather than suffering silently hoping he "figures it out" just tell him a W-T-F-S right out loud to his face. "Honey, when you go on and on about 'her' I think you're thinking about her an awful lot, I feel squirmy and sick and second-best, So I'm going to ask if you'd be willing to not talk about 'her' right now and give me one longish hug so I can feel you're here. Would you be willing to do that?" See how that tells him--easy peasy--what to do in order to make it better? Men LOVE to make it better...so make it easy for them. Ask. 



> Oh and a couple of other things. This came to me completely randomly when I wasn't thinking about what happened. I remembered something he said last week, which if I remember correctly was before stuff happened. I think I'd been teasing him about this girl liking him (yes, this is how trusting I was.) He asked- and I remember thinking it was odd at the time because of how abruptly he said it, and the fact he actually said it, "do you trust me?"
> 
> "Yes I do," I said. Then, thinking I should say more to affirm how much I *did* trust him, I said about how no matter what other troubles we have, I never felt worried about trusting him, completely, 100%. This is really bothering me. I think it ties in with my concerns over his motives behind taking her number etc.


Well this is just my guess, but it's kind of an educated guess. He probably views HIMSELF as an honest and trustworthy person. In fact, prior to this he may have been, and in real life that may be his character. But at some level he must have known he was crossing more and more and more little lines. He might have been wondering if you had "caught on" yet that he was comparing you two and thinking of her. As a DS slips down the slope of an affair, they don't usually say: "Oh hey I think I'll go get some sex now" and get it on. They are friendly and someone is friendly back! They flirt a little and the OP flirts back. They are a little MORE obvious and the OP doesn't back down. It's gradual. And each time the DS justifies going just a LEETLE BEET FARTHER. Right about then would be a perfect time to ask your LS: "Do you trust me?" "Do you think I'm a trustworthy person?" because right about then, some part of them LOVES the thrill but also is kind of wondering what kind of person they are. 

Back then you told him that "...no matter what other troubles we have, I never felt worried about trusting him, completely, 100%" becasue at that time he had not done anything TO YOUR KNOWLEDGE to cause you to doubt his honesty or to break that trust. Now, a week or so later, you know that he had (past tense) done something...an ACTION that would reasonably cause you to doubt his honesty and break that trust. In real life he doesn't need a policeman wife--but he does need to act in a way that will cast away your doubts about his honesty and rebuild the trust. Words and actions have to match in order for trust to be built. This is why voluntary transparency = growth but snooping/controlling = destruction. 



> The other thing... I have noticed he is mentioning some odd things about himself. He admitted yesterday he had been thinking about things and said he probably needed to tone down his "strutting about" at work. What he mean by this... Well. He's in the construction industry, and I think it is safe to say him and his work mates attract a lot of female attention. He said basically he plays it up a bit at work and he basically... shouldn't. Ok.


Well he's a guy. This is man-talk for trying to figure out how he got into this mess, and what should he do different so it doesn't happen again. Actually that is REALLY good! I would suggest responding like "Honey maybe you could tone down the strutting on the job, but why don't you come home and strut your stuff for me? I would love that!" In his head, this may have started because he strutted, and she noticed. It could also be that he's thinking, "Huh, I was doing that in front of others and I should be saving that for someone special." Could be he's also growing up a little and realizing that as a single guy he could do that, but as a married man with a committed relationship, he has to reign in his natural glory and give 100% of his affection and loyalty to you. I would say this might be a great topic for you two to talk about. You could tell him what YOU intend to do differently so this mess doesn't happen again. What are you going to do to admire his strut? How can you two make "adult time" (and I don't just mean sex)? How are you gonna curb your criticism and make an effort to catch him doing stuff RIGHT?



> But then there are little jokey comments as well, a couple of times in the last couple of days he has said about being able to attract female attention. Well yes he can- he is an attractive looking guy- but I am not sure why all of a sudden he is feeling the need to say stuff like this? Clueless he may be, but what on earth is going on underneath the surface because I can't work it out?


You know how right now you feel like you could SURE use a "pick-me-up" because your self-esteem took a pretty big hit? In a weird way he also feels like that. He had to almost have an AFFAIR in order to get his wife to notice him. BTW...I'm not trying to be mean there. that's just likely what he's thinking in his head. So the same way that you could use a little blaze and desire for YOU as reassurance you're not some unwanted second prize--he wants' some reassurance that he still "has it" and is your stud and could attract any woman. Then show him how lucky he is that he got THE BEST WOMAN by being who you are. Does that make sense?

If you have time, I would suggest doing a Google search on "Words of Affirmation" and see if you can't get some ideas how to make a concerted effort affirm him more. Okay I'll admit right here and now that I'm also a Words of Affirmation gal--and on MarriageBuilders it's called Admiration. Long story short, if you appreciate me or notice "Wow you did a really good job on that" or "I'm impressed with your thinking..." I'll follow you around like a content puppy forever! LOL  Oh goodness, it's sad but true! So if you can learn to do that, I will bet you money you'll rekindle that flame in NO TIME!


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## Affaircare

tobio said:


> And one more thing... Ok. I get the idea of acting in a loving, forgiving way, giving him a safe place, and everything else you said. And I know you said you can only deal with the person who is here (ie me!) But what I don't get... is how do *I* even start with dealing with how I feel as a result of what he did?


Well to be honest I don't know you or what was happening prior to this incident well enough to give specific suggestions, but I'll reply in some general ways. Some of what you feel as a result of what he did is your own emotional reaction, so that some of how you deal with it is to experience it and get through it and be honest about it and face it. The fact is that it is reasonable for you to feel scared, sad, ugly, worth less (not worthless but less than...) etc. Those are pretty natural feelings and I'm glad you're super real about it. Some of those feelings are within your control--that is to say, some feelings you could just decide to not take it that way or decide to count your blessings etc. But some are such natural instinctive reactions that it's really hard! If your hubby were here, I would tell him that part of the consequences of the mess he "stepped in" but thankfully didn't FALL in....is that he's responsible to help you get through this. 



> I am doing stuff for me. I have enrolled at the gym, bought some new outfits, all in a feelgood vein. But there is no escaping the fact that right now: my self-esteem is pretty much near zero. I feel ugly, boring, uninteresting, despite his many attempts to tell me I shouldn't feel bad about myself, it wasn't anything I did... but it obviously was. I completely acknowledge that within a lifetime together, each person will be attracted to other people, yes... but he wasn't just attracted to her, he had _feelings_ for her. I feel like a drabby second-best. I keep thinking, did he think she was prettier, had a better body, stuff like that...No it's not constructive but that is how I feel.


May I show you something? See this woman here:







She has had two husbands and one long-term live-in, and all three have cheated on her. And I'm sorry but she is the most gorgeous woman alive. 

See this woman?







Her husband (Brad Pitt) was STOLEN by a predator...and I'm not trying to be judgmental, I'm just pointing out..WOW those women are knockout stunning AMAZING!!! And it's not as if those two are the only ones! Look around Hollywood and the modeling industry and for every beautiful woman, there's adultery. If they can't keep their husbands, what hope have I got? I look like a hobbit.  

It is a misconception that affairs are due to "love" or due to "looks/sex." If that was true then women like Halle Berry, Jennifer Aniston, and Christy Brinkley and Nicole Kidman and Princess Dianna and Sophia Loren would have long, stable, happy marriages! In real life, affairs have to do with putting out the flame and building the flame. How often have you heard a friend's husband left her for someone who's ugly, older and unemployed...and thought to yourself, "Man I thought people 'traded up.'" Well in real life the OW may be older, slightly plumper, have all kinds of debts or problems...but what she didn't have was that she was not putting out his fire, and when she was around him she was doing things that built the fire. 

So tobio, your true beauty is not in your pre-baby body, your outfits, your makeup or your hair... although they kind of contribute. You know where your REAL, DEEP, LIFELONG beauty is? It is in you. It is your honesty--with him and with yourself. It is your courage to face something this scary and be brave about it. It is your strength to keep learning and growing. It is your wisdom to do what needs to be done to face this even if it's hard and hurts. It is your ability to laugh at babies. It is the cute little jokes you share with him privately. It is your socks in bed. It is the way you tickle him until YOUR sides ache. It's camping when other women won't get their nails dirty. See those other women are stunning on the outside and might be on the inside too (we don't know for sure)...but YOU! You are a treasure on the inside and outside you have great eyes, or hair, or smile. 

So I would say keep working on the gym, the outfits, etc. but also keep working on REAL beauty. And also when you do have a moment where you feel "less than" or like sloppy seconds, be honest, tell him, and let him comfort you. W-T-F-S. Remember what I say? Tell him what would make it better. "When you...I think...I feel...So could you please do XXX to help me feel a little pretty?" 

Also don't forget that he can't "make" you feel anything. He can help though! 



> I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing to help me get through that. I can deal with him, but how do I deal with ME? I feel so bitter and angry at him for it. His words feel empty to me when he tells me, "don't feel ugly, you are beautiful"- I feel like, so what- it didn't make a difference before that you thought I was beautiful/amazing/giving so why does it make a difference now?


Well...I would say that to him but perhaps not in those specific words. The idea is for you to learn to be as transparent with him as you would want him to be transparent with you! Show him the True You, and right now the True You is a hurting unit. Furthermore, it's not that you want empty compliments because those are meaningless. But right now it is reasonable for him to see that he may have gotten a "thrill" from the attention, but the cost of that thrill was at the expense of making the woman who had his children feel "less than." That's a HIGH cost...TOO HIGH! Part of it is going to be you mourning the loss too. Before this, you still had that wonderful, naive innocence "that will never happen to us" or "that happens to other people, not us, because we've got something special" and now you have a more realistic view. In a way, it's sad because that innocent view is so "perfect." But in a way, now you have the tools to really create a true, intimate relationship with each other. 

Anyway, I would deal with you by learning what you can about infidelity and yourself. Learn what you do and do not need. Learn what you want. Learn about your natural personality...and his. Learn how they fit together and how you two naturally "miscommunicate." Learn about what boundaries are and set some around yourself. Learn about respect. And as you go along, share your feelings, share your thoughts, and ask for what you need. The reason I suggest this is that I think at least a portion of your bitterness is that some part of you knows that you need...something...but you can't articulate it. And if you can't even put it into words, it's impossible for him to know or meet it. So learn about you and what you want, and learn how to articulate it, and I'll bet you'll feel a lot better. 



> Is it ok to say to him sometimes, I want some space? And I mean this, not in the reactionary way I did when he first told me. But in a, I am finding how I feel about what you did and how it has affected me, hard to deal with right now, and I want to be on my own for a little while sort of way. I love him so much but I keep finding myself looking at him and thinking, I hate you. I hate you for what you have done and how you have made me feel.


Again, I doubt I would say "I hate you" to his face, but I could maybe see "I hate the way I feel because of what you've done. I hate feeling 'less than" and although I understand you say I'm beautiful and it wasn't me, I bet if I had feelings for some other guy the wind would go out of your sails too!" As far as "wanting space" here's my thought. Probably right now the best thing you two can do is keep days to "good days" and start making associations that connect positive feelings with your spouse. So rather than all this pressure to "fix your marriage" I would suggest doing FUN things together as much as possible. Like, if you've always wondered about racquetball, and wanted to play with him, now might be a great time to try and then go to the coffeeshop after for literally just FUN. Instead of expecting to solve this TONIGHT (or tomorrow), for now just build positives (wife=good; hubby=good) rather than negatives. Some of the rest will come in it's due time. 

As to needing space, I would say it might be appropriate to say "I need a break--let's just watch a comedy" or "I need a mommy break and would like to take a hot bubble bath and turn on Frank Sinatra" Again W-T-F-S for what you need, and if that's time to journal, just say "Journaling helps me sort all this out, so ccould we agree to work it so I have one hour a day where I can write for myself?" See what I mean? 



> Also- if he *were* here- what would you be saying to him about how I am feeling? What is his part in getting through it?


I'll be blunt. I suspect if I tell you this, you might start with "Well Affaircare says you should... blah blah blah" and that would not be a good thing. However, because I know you are somewhat curious, here is what I would say (after smacking him upside da head): 

ARE YOU CRAZY!!???

Do you realize what a woman you've got here, and you almost lost her for some floozy who doesn't even know you! LOL 

Then I would say he made a vow TO YOU to forsake all other, and to give 100% of his affection and loyalty to you. He has a duty to you and owes this OW nothing! So I would encourage him to do what he knows is the right thing. UTTERLY remove all contact with this OW, and yep that means manning it up and deleting her from FB, cell, email etc. Then I'd have him write her a no contact letter and give the no contact letter to you to mail. Here are some Sample No Contact Letters in which he admits that how he behaved was wrong and he can never, EVER contact her or see her or ask about her again. If he "accidentally" sees her at work or asks about her, he should quit his job. Yes, quit because YOU are doing the heavy lifting of not kicking his bee-hind to the street, and it's time for him to show that same kind of strength of character FOR HIS WIFE. Next I would get him to commit himself wholeheartedly, 100% to being transparent with you. This means he willingly lets you see the True Him and yep it's gonna feel like you're being "checked up on" for a while but that is due to your own actions! Man it up! Finally I'd teach him how to demonstrate commitment to you and to making this marriage...this relationship...into the loving, accepting, sexy relationship he wants. But that can't be done if he's not committed. This is where I would start with him, and you can see more about all three of these on this sticky thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ded-rebuild-trust-dss-honesty.html#post208407


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## Conrad

Affaircare said:


> Well to be honest I don't know you or what was happening prior to this incident well enough to give specific suggestions, but I'll reply in some general ways. Some of what you feel as a result of what he did is your own emotional reaction, so that some of how you deal with it is to experience it and get through it and be honest about it and face it. The fact is that it is reasonable for you to feel scared, sad, ugly, worth less (not worthless but less than...) etc. Those are pretty natural feelings and I'm glad you're super real about it. Some of those feelings are within your control--that is to say, some feelings you could just decide to not take it that way or decide to count your blessings etc. But some are such natural instinctive reactions that it's really hard! If your hubby were here, I would tell him that part of the consequences of the mess he "stepped in" but thankfully didn't FALL in....is that he's responsible to help you get through this.
> 
> 
> May I show you something? See this woman here:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She has had two husbands and one long-term live-in, and all three have cheated on her. And I'm sorry but she is the most gorgeous woman alive.
> 
> See this woman?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Her husband (Brad Pitt) was STOLEN by a predator...and I'm not trying to be judgmental, I'm just pointing out..WOW those women are knockout stunning AMAZING!!! And it's not as if those two are the only ones! Look around Hollywood and the modeling industry and for every beautiful woman, there's adultery. If they can't keep their husbands, what hope have I got? I look like a hobbit.
> 
> It is a misconception that affairs are due to "love" or due to "looks/sex." If that was true then women like Halle Berry, Jennifer Aniston, and Christy Brinkley and Nicole Kidman and Princess Dianna and Sophia Loren would have long, stable, happy marriages! In real life, affairs have to do with putting out the flame and building the flame. How often have you heard a friend's husband left her for someone who's ugly, older and unemployed...and thought to yourself, "Man I thought people 'traded up.'" Well in real life the OW may be older, slightly plumper, have all kinds of debts or problems...but what she didn't have was that she was not putting out his fire, and when she was around him she was doing things that built the fire.
> 
> So tobio, your true beauty is not in your pre-baby body, your outfits, your makeup or your hair... although they kind of contribute. You know where your REAL, DEEP, LIFELONG beauty is? It is in you. It is your honesty--with him and with yourself. It is your courage to face something this scary and be brave about it. It is your strength to keep learning and growing. It is your wisdom to do what needs to be done to face this even if it's hard and hurts. It is your ability to laugh at babies. It is the cute little jokes you share with him privately. It is your socks in bed. It is the way you tickle him until YOUR sides ache. It's camping when other women won't get their nails dirty. See those other women are stunning on the outside and might be on the inside too (we don't know for sure)...but YOU! You are a treasure on the inside and outside you have great eyes, or hair, or smile.
> 
> So I would say keep working on the gym, the outfits, etc. but also keep working on REAL beauty. And also when you do have a moment where you feel "less than" or like sloppy seconds, be honest, tell him, and let him comfort you. W-T-F-S. Remember what I say? Tell him what would make it better. "When you...I think...I feel...So could you please do XXX to help me feel a little pretty?"
> 
> Also don't forget that he can't "make" you feel anything. He can help though!
> 
> 
> Well...I would say that to him but perhaps not in those specific words. The idea is for you to learn to be as transparent with him as you would want him to be transparent with you! Show him the True You, and right now the True You is a hurting unit. Furthermore, it's not that you want empty compliments because those are meaningless. But right now it is reasonable for him to see that he may have gotten a "thrill" from the attention, but the cost of that thrill was at the expense of making the woman who had his children feel "less than." That's a HIGH cost...TOO HIGH! Part of it is going to be you mourning the loss too. Before this, you still had that wonderful, naive innocence "that will never happen to us" or "that happens to other people, not us, because we've got something special" and now you have a more realistic view. In a way, it's sad because that innocent view is so "perfect." But in a way, now you have the tools to really create a true, intimate relationship with each other.
> 
> Anyway, I would deal with you by learning what you can about infidelity and yourself. Learn what you do and do not need. Learn what you want. Learn about your natural personality...and his. Learn how they fit together and how you two naturally "miscommunicate." Learn about what boundaries are and set some around yourself. Learn about respect. And as you go along, share your feelings, share your thoughts, and ask for what you need. The reason I suggest this is that I think at least a portion of your bitterness is that some part of you knows that you need...something...but you can't articulate it. And if you can't even put it into words, it's impossible for him to know or meet it. So learn about you and what you want, and learn how to articulate it, and I'll bet you'll feel a lot better.
> 
> 
> Again, I doubt I would say "I hate you" to his face, but I could maybe see "I hate the way I feel because of what you've done. I hate feeling 'less than" and although I understand you say I'm beautiful and it wasn't me, I bet if I had feelings for some other guy the wind would go out of your sails too!" As far as "wanting space" here's my thought. Probably right now the best thing you two can do is keep days to "good days" and start making associations that connect positive feelings with your spouse. So rather than all this pressure to "fix your marriage" I would suggest doing FUN things together as much as possible. Like, if you've always wondered about racquetball, and wanted to play with him, now might be a great time to try and then go to the coffeeshop after for literally just FUN. Instead of expecting to solve this TONIGHT (or tomorrow), for now just build positives (wife=good; hubby=good) rather than negatives. Some of the rest will come in it's due time.
> 
> As to needing space, I would say it might be appropriate to say "I need a break--let's just watch a comedy" or "I need a mommy break and would like to take a hot bubble bath and turn on Frank Sinatra" Again W-T-F-S for what you need, and if that's time to journal, just say "Journaling helps me sort all this out, so ccould we agree to work it so I have one hour a day where I can write for myself?" See what I mean?
> 
> 
> I'll be blunt. I suspect if I tell you this, you might start with "Well Affaircare says you should... blah blah blah" and that would not be a good thing. However, because I know you are somewhat curious, here is what I would say (after smacking him upside da head):
> 
> ARE YOU CRAZY!!???
> 
> Do you realize what a woman you've got here, and you almost lost her for some floozy who doesn't even know you! LOL
> 
> Then I would say he made a vow TO YOU to forsake all other, and to give 100% of his affection and loyalty to you. He has a duty to you and owes this OW nothing! So I would encourage him to do what he knows is the right thing. UTTERLY remove all contact with this OW, and yep that means manning it up and deleting her from FB, cell, email etc. Then I'd have him write her a no contact letter and give the no contact letter to you to mail. Here are some Sample No Contact Letters in which he admits that how he behaved was wrong and he can never, EVER contact her or see her or ask about her again. If he "accidentally" sees her at work or asks about her, he should quit his job. Yes, quit because YOU are doing the heavy lifting of not kicking his bee-hind to the street, and it's time for him to show that same kind of strength of character FOR HIS WIFE. Next I would get him to commit himself wholeheartedly, 100% to being transparent with you. This means he willingly lets you see the True Him and yep it's gonna feel like you're being "checked up on" for a while but that is due to your own actions! Man it up! Finally I'd teach him how to demonstrate commitment to you and to making this marriage...this relationship...into the loving, accepting, sexy relationship he wants. But that can't be done if he's not committed. This is where I would start with him, and you can see more about all three of these on this sticky thread: http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ded-rebuild-trust-dss-honesty.html#post208407


Not bad for a Hobbit.


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## okeydokie

everyone in hollywood cheats, men and women


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## Trenton

Catherine & Brennan, you know I feel you big time. 

But the BEST thing I've learned from TAM is that we can only work on ourselves. We get a whole us and then we're better able to deal with our feelings and KNOW what we actually wants as opposed to allowing our emotions to rule our relationship and create negative cycles that don't actually get us what we want anyway.


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## Trenton

> So tobio, your true beauty is not in your pre-baby body, your outfits, your makeup or your hair... although they kind of contribute. You know where your REAL, DEEP, LIFELONG beauty is? It is in you. It is your honesty--with him and with yourself. It is your courage to face something this scary and be brave about it. It is your strength to keep learning and growing. It is your wisdom to do what needs to be done to face this even if it's hard and hurts. It is your ability to laugh at babies. It is the cute little jokes you share with him privately. It is your socks in bed. It is the way you tickle him until YOUR sides ache. It's camping when other women won't get their nails dirty. See those other women are stunning on the outside and might be on the inside too (we don't know for sure)...but YOU! You are a treasure on the inside and outside you have great eyes, or hair, or smile.


This is pure gold.


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## Conrad

Trenton said:


> Catherine & Brennan, you know I feel you big time.
> 
> But the BEST thing I've learned from TAM is that we can only work on ourselves. We get a whole us and then we're better able to deal with our feelings and KNOW what we actually wants as opposed to allowing our emotions to rule our relationship and create negative cycles that don't actually get us what we want anyway.


:iagree:


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## Therealbrighteyes

Of course she needs to work on herself. I don't see however on shelving her feelings being healthy for her. She should be allowed to express her anger and fears without him lashing back at her. That was what I was pointing out.


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## Conrad

Brennan,

I think you're missing a key point here - so bear with me.

Expressing anger... for most people means "over the top" emotion with raised voices and some(times) hateful rhetoric.

Totally ineffective and truly inappropriate - and it works against you. Vindictiveness, punishment, etc. are all part and parcel of this venting.

Expressing anger in a measured tone shows a maturity to the listener that makes you effective.

This is what Affaircare is advocating. No reason to not let him know you're angry. But, to push him away, punish, and become vindictive makes it unsafe to tell the truth going forward.

That's not what they want in their marriage. And, Tobio is responsible for setting the tone here.

Some of the advice given her plays right into the stereotype of the shrill nag that no one wants to become.


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## Affaircare

Trenton said:


> Catherine & Brennan, you know I feel you big time.
> 
> But the BEST thing I've learned from TAM is that we can only work on ourselves. We get a whole us and then we're better able to deal with our feelings and KNOW what we actually wants as opposed to allowing our emotions to rule our relationship and create negative cycles that don't actually get us what we want anyway.


:iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree::iagree:

When I address Tobio and things she could be working on, it's not to "excuse" her hubby or say that there aren't things he could be working on too--but rather she is here. This is the side of the street that the LS would work on. When the DS is here, the side of the street they work on is ending all contact, willingness to be transparent (and yes, it's going to feel like someone's checking on you...because of your choices and actions so deal with it for a while), and committing to actually working on the marriage's issues AND YOUR OWN ISSUES. 

Sometimes I find that the LS is here just for sympathy and they have no desire whatsoever to examine themselves, see how they contributed, or do any work to change. Sometimes the DS comes here looking to gripe, blame, justify, and romanticize their decision to commit adultery and they have no desire whatsoever to examine themselves, see how they contributed, or do any work to change. In the instance where one or the other will not face reality or work on themselves...the marriage will fail. Our friends over in "Coping with Infidelity" are living proof of this: land2634, JAR, marksaysay, Andrew2011, HurtinginTN...all Loyals who were willing to look at themselves and do the work but their spouses were not, and preferred to continue to blame and loose their marriage. 

BUT when both the LS and DS look at their relationship realistically, work on their OWN issues (rather than pointing the finger) and work on the marriage's issues--why then reconciliation is absolutely possible! DawnD is a good example and she is still active on the forum (of course there are others but once they're reconciled they usually stop coming to TAM  ).


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## Sakaye

Sanity said:


> A few people here will recommend MC but it really depends on what you can tolerate. For me infidelity is a deal breaker I don't care what the circumstances were.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I completely agree. Infidelity once is all I need to walk away. Clean, no questions asked, goodbye. I couldn't deal with it. I've been through it twice and I vowed never again. Me, Myself, and I are far more important than He, Himself, and his wang!! 
You deserve better.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Therealbrighteyes

Conrad said:


> Brennan,
> 
> I think you're missing a key point here - so bear with me.
> 
> Expressing anger... for most people means "over the top" emotion with raised voices and some(times) hateful rhetoric.
> 
> Totally ineffective and truly inappropriate - and it works against you. Vindictiveness, punishment, etc. are all part and parcel of this venting.
> 
> Expressing anger in a measured tone shows a maturity to the listener that makes you effective.
> 
> This is what Affaircare is advocating. No reason to not let him know you're angry. But, to push him away, punish, and become vindictive makes it unsafe to tell the truth going forward.
> 
> That's not what they want in their marriage. And, Tobio is responsible for setting the tone here.
> 
> Some of the advice given her plays right into the stereotype of the shrill nag that no one wants to become.


I hear what you are saying and that is a great approach. I guess for me, I don't think the other shoe has dropped yet. She also touched on that.


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## tobio

A bit of a rushed reply but will pack in what I can...

First off: I have read all the replies since I last posted, but am not going to have time to respond properly until tomorrow. Nevertheless it is all going in and being processed. EVERYTHING is appreciated 

We are going out together tonight. We have arranged a babysitter and are meeting up with a group of friends, this is something we used to do a lot when first dating. OH was talking earlier and saying he was looking forward to going out and me actually being WITH him, he made a comment about how we will be sat opposite each other, talking to different friends, but making "sex eyes" at each other all night This "sitting across from each other" bit was a kind of standing joke we used to have about when we went out, but the second bit... hmm, I think this is very telling. I am thinking he is saying something about anticipation, the chase and suchlike?

Also- I haven't been showing him the "real me"- the one which is upset, hurt, sad, in mourning almost. I have instead been faking it, fake happy, trying to be someone he wants to be around. But yes, he is not buying it. He pointed out that I was quiet earlier, said it worried him because he didn't know what was going to come out of it. I said, yes I know I'm quiet, but don't worry.

My worry is he does not know how to deal with my feelings of hurt. So he gets anxious, stressed, irritated, angry. *I* do not know what I want him to do, being honest. Because I know I will feel his words are empty.

He is really making an effort though. The physical affection- well, I can remember him being like this when we were first together. A lot of it feels genuine, tender- and I think, why on earth couldn't he have been like this the million and one times I WANTED him to be before this all happened? He came out with all the excuses in the book as to why he couldn't/wouldn't be affectionate with me, and now he's showering me with affection! *shrugs*

He is just being so... nice. Very, overly nice in fact.

And he is a "words of affirmation" guy. I GENUINELY thought I was doing my part with that. Sort of boosting his masculinity whilst complimenting him was my tack. Stuff like, "you did such a good job with learning how to mend that problem with the car. You pick stuff like that up so quickly. I love that you're good with the "guy" stuff- I wouldn't have a clue!"

Oh and the last thing. I don't feel I can properly talk just right now about my feelings with him, because I *do* feel still so angry and hurt. I do not feel confident I can express this in a non-vindictive, hurtful way. I still feel I want to lash out and give him a good verbal pasting! I am very interested in what Catherine said about the concept of atonement because I may need him to ues it for me to be able to move forward.


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## Conrad

It's much more likely he can/will atone if the bar gets lowered and it feels safe.

I just wanted to say that you should go back and read the posts you were submitting before his indiscretion.

Your tone is completely forthright and honest now. Very appealing. Very direct, straight, and true.

Stay that way.

He'll do anything you ask.


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## tobio

Conrad said:


> It's much more likely he can/will atone if the bar gets lowered and it feels safe.
> 
> I just wanted to say that you should go back and read the posts you were submitting before his indiscretion.
> 
> Your tone is completely forthright and honest now. Very appealing. Very direct, straight, and true.
> 
> Stay that way.
> 
> He'll do anything you ask.


If the bar gets lowered = I lower my expectations (demands)?

I found myself sniping at him not long ago. Nothing really nasty, but I heard myself and it was very passive-aggressive. He asked what was wrong, I said the reason I was saying those things is because I feel very angry inside- he asks what about - I say you know- he says "what happened?" and I nod.

I say I knew I was quiet earlier and it's because I feel like that inside, and I don't want to be like that on the outside so I sit and be quiet, until it passes. I start to say "I need reassurance from you," and I can feel him retreating, his head goes somewhere else. I carry on anyway- "I need to know you care, I need to know you love me, I need to know you think I'm pretty" and all of a sudden I feel so incredibly needy.

He nods quietly but doesn't otherwise respond. He isn't giving off "receptive" vibes, his silence feels frustrated and angry. I get up and carry on.I feel he's angry at me for spoiling the good atmosphere.


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## Conrad

Realize that coming across as needy is "pushing him away".

In part, neediness helped push you two apart in the first place.

Lowering the temperature for a good reaction means taking better care of yourself without needing/demanding stuff from him.

Is that lowering expectations?

I see it as raising them - from yourself.


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## Affaircare

...working on a reply...


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## Catherine602

Trenton said:


> Catherine & Brennan, you know I feel you big time.
> 
> But the BEST thing I've learned from TAM is that we can only work on ourselves. We get a whole us and then we're better able to deal with our feelings and KNOW what we actually wants as opposed to allowing our emotions to rule our relationship and create negative cycles that don't actually get us what we want anyway.


I agree with you whole heartedly - in my head - but in my deep emotion they don't match up. I hear what Affaircare is saying she has a wonderful calm and reassuring manner. Moreover when I read it I say to my self that's right she specks for both parties and helps to decode the actions of the disloyal. She does it in a way that makes it eminately acceptable to a person who has been hurt. She is not saying well this is how it is so buck up but more like sharing her knowledge of human nature. Who can argue, we all recognize human nature. 

The problem is the hurt person has no splice from the person who hurt them. If T husband continues to down play the fact that he has hurt his wife deeply for what ever human motivation, is she then required to accept his lack of empathy and back off. I do not think she is being at all unreasonable and I think he is being ver careless and unkind. This is a women who has had his children, is still nursing one of them and who he is treating as if she was some person who has done nothing in his life. I understand the motivations but I believe his lack of motivation to care about his wife says more about his character. Her choice then comes to wheather she want to endure years with a man who seems incapable of forgetting about his ego and think about his wife. 

It is so simple to "look at his wife and see her pain and respond with concern and care. He would do that with a wounded dog but not for his wife. Is her transgressions so large that she can not at lest expect that. He souds like an insecure pekock who may only learn when someone cheats on him. He may yet have that in his future. 

This is all from emotion and not reason but life exist in the intersection of emotions and thought. Niether can be egnored. I had a really bad argument with my husband this AM and none of my intellect was called into play when it got heated so I know what I am talking about.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

Perhaps she can conduct herself differently.


----------



## Affaircare

> We are going out together tonight. We have arranged a babysitter and are meeting up with a group of friends, this is something we used to do a lot when first dating. OH was talking earlier and saying he was looking forward to going out and me actually being WITH him, he made a comment about how we will be sat opposite each other, talking to different friends, but making "sex eyes" at each other all night This "sitting across from each other" bit was a kind of standing joke we used to have about when we went out, but the second bit... hmm, I think this is very telling. I am thinking he is saying something about anticipation, the chase and suchlike?


I agree I think he is too, namely that he would like it if his wife, the woman he loves and who has had his children, sat across from him and talked to different friends, but looked at him like she could not wait to get home and tear his clothes off because he is BLAZING hot! For some reason, men like that kind of look... 



> Also- I haven't been showing him the "real me"- the one which is upset, hurt, sad, in mourning almost. I have instead been faking it, fake happy, trying to be someone he wants to be around. But yes, he is not buying it. He pointed out that I was quiet earlier, said it worried him because he didn't know what was going to come out of it. I said, yes I know I'm quiet, but don't worry.
> 
> My worry is he does not know how to deal with my feelings of hurt. So he gets anxious, stressed, irritated, angry. *I* do not know what I want him to do, being honest. Because I know I will feel his words are empty.


I need to point out something to you that may not be too popular here, but failing to show him the True You is actually deception. I realize you don't want to go around screaming at him or break down crying, but it is impossible for him to know what you're going through, or comfort you, or empathize unless you show him or at least share with him what's inside. By being fake you may not realize it but you're kind of disrespecting him, because by your actions you're saying, "I don't think you have what it takes to deal with me and my feelings right now. You aren't mature enough to handle it in an adult way. So I am going to lie to you about what's going on with me. BUT ... I want you to be honest and open with me." My guess is that if he treated you like that, you'd feel pretty disrespected--after all you're a very reasonable adult woman! So have some faith in your husband and his ability to cope with and manage the truth. 



> He is really making an effort though. The physical affection- well, I can remember him being like this when we were first together. A lot of it feels genuine, tender- and I think, why on earth couldn't he have been like this the million and one times I WANTED him to be before this all happened? He came out with all the excuses in the book as to why he couldn't/wouldn't be affectionate with me, and now he's showering me with affection! *shrugs*
> 
> He is just being so... nice. Very, overly nice in fact.


Actually it would be easiest to ask him this question--directly--when you've had a great night and you love each other and you both feel pretty secure. But my guess is that he is not dumb. He knows he hurt you and being a guy is relatively clueless so he doesn't know how to "fix it." What guys do know is that if they blow it big time, buy flowers or chocolate. Right? So he's doing what he knows to do. That's actually a good sign because that means he is willing to do ... something ... to make this right! Now all we have to do is identify WHAT it is he has to do to help you! Right? 



> And he is a "words of affirmation" guy. I GENUINELY thought I was doing my part with that. Sort of boosting his masculinity whilst complimenting him was my tack. Stuff like, "you did such a good job with learning how to mend that problem with the car. You pick stuff like that up so quickly. I love that you're good with the "guy" stuff- I wouldn't have a clue!"


 You know for someone who doesn't naturally have this Love Language it can be a real toughy. My own Dear Hubby is NOT this way (as in N-O-T!!) and he says when he does try to say something it feels so fake and "flattering" to him as if he's trying to butter-me-up. He really does feel appreciation but when he tries to formulate it in words, it feels like the words don't express it accurately and they sound fake. Does that make sense? Just as important though, is Words of affirmation IN REVERSE. Insults can leave him shattered and are not easily forgotten. Speaking for myself, the largest pain I can feel is when I have worked and given and provided for someone, and they turn around and not only don't appreciate it...insult what I gave. (I don't mean 'presents' but more like 'I gave you the gift of doing a chore' or 'I gave you the gift of getting your favorite fruit') So maybe you did say positive words of affirmation, but the negative words of insult drained them away. BTW I'm not saying you did or did not actually do that...just discussing possibilities to help you think and explore. 



> Oh and the last thing. I don't feel I can properly talk just right now about my feelings with him, because I *do* feel still so angry and hurt. I do not feel confident I can express this in a non-vindictive, hurtful way. I still feel I want to lash out and give him a good verbal pasting! I am very interested in what Catherine said about the concept of atonement because I may need him to ues it for me to be able to move forward.


Well as I mentioned above, if you do not show him or share with him your true feelings--even if they are pretty messy--you're kind of saying "I don't believe you have the maturity to handle this" and that's pretty disrespectful. But even skipping that, what would you do if I told you that I was fine and liked you fine...but inside I was seething with rage at you for hurting me AND I expected you to somehow empathize with how I feel, even though I'm HIDING my feelings from you! How could you truly express empathy and understanding if you did not see that I'm hurting and enraged? All you'd see is a calm, fake, exterior "I'm fine! I'm fine!" Chances are about 100% I would be FURIOUS you didn't acknowledge my pain and it would build and build until I blew up at you...and from your side you'd see "I'm fine! I'm fine!" have a suspicious something wasn't right, and then BLAM!! I'd explode at you! 

If you would like him to show you empathy, that would mean you want him to have recognition and insight into how you are feeling. Now...he could guess. But guessing is so inaccurate! That's such a waste of energy! Instead, I recommend that you tell him, "Honey, put on your flame-retardant suit and your 'don't take it personally' shield, because I'm done pretending I'm okay and being fake. I want you to be transparent with me and yet I've been hiding the True Me from you. So it's not going to be pretty and I will do my best to keep the focus on me and not blame you. Let me know when you're ready." Then give him the OPPORTUNITY to commiserate with you and let you know that he hurt as much as you did! Does that make sense? I'm not advocating kicking his a$$ from here to tomorrow. I'm advocating being honest with yourself and with him, and "fake fine" is not honesty. 



> I found myself sniping at him not long ago. Nothing really nasty, but I heard myself and it was very passive-aggressive. He asked what was wrong, I said the reason I was saying those things is because I feel very angry inside- he asks what about - I say you know- he says "what happened?" and I nod.
> 
> I say I knew I was quiet earlier and it's because I feel like that inside, and I don't want to be like that on the outside so I sit and be quiet, until it passes. I start to say "I need reassurance from you," and I can feel him retreating, his head goes somewhere else. I carry on anyway- "I need to know you care, I need to know you love me, I need to know you think I'm pretty" and all of a sudden I feel so incredibly needy.
> 
> He nods quietly but doesn't otherwise respond. He isn't giving off "receptive" vibes, his silence feels frustrated and angry. I get up and carry on.I feel he's angry at me for spoiling the good atmosphere.


May I point out a couple things to you? This is actually GREAT because it gives you an easy way to start evaluating where communication is going off-track and turning into "me vs. him" rather than being on the same team. Okay so you start with "I found myself sniping at him" and right there that is something new I would like to encourage you to practice more. Be self-aware of you and what you are doing and saying and how you're saying it, etc. If you notice sniping, just say _"I notice I'm sniping and I want to take a minute apart to figure this out so I can tell you what's up."_ When he asks "What's wrong" look at how you replied: with a REASON. He didn't ask "why?...." he asked for information about what was wrong. So there's another thing. When he talks or asks you a question...listen and answer what he asks. When you say that you feel very angry inside, and he says "about what" again look at how you reply. You don't answer. You say "You know." No he doesn't. He is a clueless guy, remember? AND he may have suspicions but he is not in your skin. So he does not know. When he asks, it is okay to tell him. You can even say "I'm feeling angry about the affair at the moment." 

Then you do say some really good stuff: "I knew I was quiet earlier and it's because I feel like that inside, and I don't want to be like that on the outside so I sit and be quiet, until it passes." Okay there you go. You shared some of what's inside and even a little about your plan. My suggestion would be to be even more open and blunt about it. "Look honey, here's the truth. I'm pissed at times. I feel like some of my innocence was robbed. At times I feel like a frumpy step-sister. Okay? But I know those are just feelings and I'll feel them less and less often, so my idea is to just be quiet until the feeling pass rather than being all b!tchy. What do you think?" This gets him to engage in the conversation and to be ON YOUR TEAM. See that? It's not "Me vs. you" but "this is how I intend to deal with this--sound good to you?" and you two are in it together. Finally you say "I need reassurance from you." Now tobio, do you think you've have any idea what I mean if I said to you that I need you show me love? Do you know what means love to me? What if you send me gifts and my Love Language is Acts of Service? Saying these kinds of vague statements drives men NUTS and you know why? Guys don't have a clue what we mean by "be romantic" or "I need reassurance" or "respect me." Guys are more literal. They think "What SPECIFICALLY do you want me to do?" So your man hears "I need reassurance" and he thinks _"Oh [email protected] I'm sunk. I will NEVER figure this out. She wants something from me, I have no clue what, she can't put it into words even, and somehow I'm supposed to figure it out...but no matter what I do it won't be right."_ Then look at your next words really closely. "...and I can feel him retreating, his head goes somewhere else." Do you see that this is entirely something that you projected onto him, and not something that he said out loud or something he expressed to you in a clear way? For example, you say you FEEL him retreating. What if his head was thinking what I just typed? What if his head was thinking of ways to be reassuring? What if his head was thinking _"Huh what has she wanted in the past when she asked for reassurance?"_ None of those would be "retreating" and he did not say out loud "Honey! I'm retreating from this conversation. It is WAAAAY too heavy for me!!." Nope. You assigned that to him. Maybe he DID resign. But maybe you assumed he did, pressed on with some other vague stuff, and then due to your own insecurities assigned him "not giving off receptive vibes." Sitting here on this forum we can't tell, but what I can tell is that without hearing it out loud, you are jumping to conclusions...and then not verifying them. Some of them may or may not be true. So rather than concluding he's withdrawing, speak it out loud. 

Okay continuing on you say that you feel so incredibly needy. That is because you are expecting your husband, a person outside of yourself, to "make" you feel pretty and loveable. Tobio, only you can control what you think and feel. In fact, even I can not control you and you could very well say "Well I hate your guts now. Bye." So no matter what he does, he can not "make" you feel pretty and loveable. You are pretty because of your beauty (remember that part)? And you are loveable because you are who you are--a reasonable, self-aware, real, honest, loving, caring, thoughtful treasure of a woman. Being loveable is like being the heir to the throne: it is part of your identity and it is just who you ARE. So rather than tell your hubby "I need you to make me feel loved" tell him "I don't feel lovely right now and a long, 3-minute hug would help with that" or "I feel like a big old BLOB today and it makes me angry. Can you kiss me while I grouse until I stop grousing and giggle please?" Get the idea? Then let's finish looking at what you wrote. "He nods quietly but doesn't otherwise respond. He isn't giving off "receptive" vibes, his silence feels frustrated and angry. I get up and carry on.I feel he's angry at me for spoiling the good atmosphere." Did you notice something? He did not yell and scream at you for being angry. He did not say things he would later regret. He did not tell you "You can't feel that way." He did not say that he's frustrated you're not over this already. He did not tell you, "BLANKETY BLANK BLANk now you've ruined our fun night." Nope. He responded quietly (when you were quiet, what did that mean?) and he did not respond abusively, controllingly, with threats, or with blame. Nope. He let you have you say. Then YOU assigned all the rest of that to him. You said it felt like he wasn't receptive. What does receptive feel like? And maybe his lack of reaction did have some tinges of frustration or anger, but we don't know for sure because we are not in his head and he didn't say anything out loud. He actions at most indicated "I'm not sure what to do so I'll do nothing." 


SOOOOOO...I have a challenge for you. From this point forward, I would like you to make a concerted effort to jump to no conclusions and make no assumptions. This is hard I know, but for right now, I would like you to practice checking if that's what he's thinking and feeling. Bear in mind that if he's a typical guy, he may do a lot better describing what he's THINKING than what he's feeling, and that's okay. *So assignment #1--Do not assume. Check with him Out Loud.* "Honey it seems to me that you are disappointed and angry. Is that how you feel right now?" 

*Assignment #2--Practice W-T-F-S and use that all the time.* I mean A LOT!! Include all of the letters too: When you (or when I)...I THINK... I Feel.... So I'd like to ask (and then be specific). Saying "I need you to be more romantic" is like setting up a man to fail, so if you need a hug, ask for a hug. You need him to give you the eye all night? Ask for it. Okay? I know it's hard but try.


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## Affaircare

[small threadjack]
Catherine, 

I hope you don't mind--I was mostly addressing tobio because it's her thread, but I do want to reply to some of your thoughts and questions. In one of your posts you asked: 



> This is my biggest concern with the advice that you are giving Affaircare, it is geared towards the loyal spouse doing all of the work to make the disloyal spouse feel good and loved. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Shouldn't the he be doing as much work as she is? Why is she required to stuff her justified feeling of mistrust, fractured self esteem, and anger while daubing over the person who caused it.


I actually have a funny question for you. The LS is the one who's here at the forum doing reading. How would you propose that I "make" the DS do as much work using only the LS? How do I communicate to the DS what they should be doing to make their LS feel good and loved...when only the LS comes here? How would I go about telling the DS that he/she as a duty to help their LS wrestle with the feelings that their actions created, when the DS is not here? Osmosis? Control? I do not see an alternative that would make the DS do what they should be doing when the only one with whom I have any means of communication is the LS...short of endorsing controlling behavior. And controlling behavior does not build a healthy relationship--it builds a parent/child relationship which one usually resents and eventually leaves. 

So I have never, ever said that the DS gets their feet kissed while the LS is shattered to smithereens and then has to stuff their feelings. What I have said is that there are two sides required: the DS's side and LS's side. The LS is the one here--Tobio--and so I'm telling her about what she can do, both for herself and for the marriage. If the DS were here, as I mentioned to Tobio in my reply, we'd start with the http://talkaboutmarriage.com/coping...ded-rebuild-trust-dss-honesty.html#post208407 and would continue from there into "how affairs start" "what loyals feels" "what commitment really is" identifying the kindlers and extinguishers that THEY did, etc. Should the DS be doing as much as the LS? Of course! They both need to do about equal amounts of work and practicing new things and seeing things in new light...and the DS has the added bonus of knowing that their own actions were unforgiveable! But remember how often, in a marriage, both parties feel like they are "doing everything" and the other guy is doing nothing? Same here. The LS feels like "Hey I'm the injured party here! Why am I doing all the work?" but the DS feels pretty similar. So they BOTH have to work for it to thrive, but BOTH aren't here, and we just can not get her DS to do anything from here on this forum...and "Affaircare said you're supposed to be...blah blah blah" does not work. 

Later on it that post you say that: 


> True forgiveness is based on the actions and work put in to the relationship by the person who transgressed not the person who has been hurt. The requirement that the hurt person do all of the work is not humanly possible and I cannot see how this will lead to re- establish a new relationship. Her husband is dictating the terms of the marriage she takes it or leaves it.


I disagree and I'm living proof of my reason. My exH left me and our two kids for another woman in another state. He left our business so I had no way to support the family, our business failed, we lost our home, and he never, ever ONCE said he was sorry or wrong (until like seven years later). Now, suppose I had sat around and waited for the "...work put into the relationship by the person who transgressed...." I'd have been waiting seven years, and I would have been bitter and angry that whole time, because I was the "party who was wronged." In real life, forgiveness is not something he earns from me, but rather is something that I grant TO MYSELF. I make a conscious decision "to give up resentment of or claim to requital for" (which is the Merriam-Webster definition of "forgive"). Now this is just me, but you can hold onto the resentment of infidelity forever, and use it like a sword over someone's head: the ultimate ace-in-the-hole to win every argument. OR you can live a life peaceful contentment, making the choice to release the resentment REGARDLESS of how the offending party acts. 
Now under ideal circumstances, the person who transgressed admits they were wrong and does care enough about the relationship to want to mend the wedge. Ideally they stop doing what they know is wrong and are willing to work at rebuilding and doing better. But here's a fact. Not all disloyals ever hit ideal!! So would you have JAR, land and the other LS's in the "Coping with Infidelity" area to live the rest of their lives in resentment until the ex who "wronged" them put in the work to fix it? If you made a grievously large mistake, and did realize it, would you hope that your spouse would use it as a weapon against you to control how you acted? No, that is not healthy and respectful rebuilding. 

Again, I am purposely leaving off the DS's side, and that's not because the DS doesn't have work to do but rather because the DS can not "make" their LS forgive no matter what they do. I've known of LS's who have a truly remorseful DS and then they bring it up in fights, use is as an excuse to not have sex, etc. for the rest of the DS's life. So the DS absolutely DOES have work to do if they intend to rebuild a healthy intimate relationship but it's not "making their LS forgive them." That is a choice the LS makes. The DS is responsible for THEIR CHOICES and the consequences of their choices. They HAD a spouse who trusted in their honesty and not that is shattered, and if the DS wants to rebuild that, they have to accept that they are starting from ground zero. The DS devastated their partner, and they are responsible to be supportive as their LS deals with those feelings in a healthy way. ETC. But saying that the DS has to do all the work is not humanly possible (or healthy) either and will not lead to re-establishing a new relationship. It would be a relationship of punishment, and that is not love. 

Conrad had it right when he wrote: 


> Expressing anger... for most people means "over the top" emotion with raised voices and some(times) hateful rhetoric.
> 
> Totally ineffective and truly inappropriate - and it works against you. Vindictiveness, punishment, etc. are all part and parcel of this venting.



Finally, in another post you wrote: 


> I don't think her husband get's how much he hurt her he has no empathy a requirement for true intimacy and he is likely to do it again since it is no big deal to him and he minimizes her pain. ... Are there so many other good things in this relationship that she would be asking too much to expect him to care enough to not get him self entangled with another girl when he needs to feel good, to be careful about his wife's feelings, to understand her deep hurt an anxiety at this easily date.


May I politely point out that you "...don't think her husband get's how much he hurt her..." and claim that "he has no empathy" based on Tobio's assigning certain reactions to him and her assumptions about what she said it "felt like"....not based on him coming on her and expressing out loud that inside his sking he doesn't see what the big deal it. This is EXACTLY what I mean about dealing with the person here. Until I hear from his lips (or fingertips ) "What is the gull durned big deal?" I'm not going to assume that what she assumed is either true or false. It is her educated speculation at best. I realize she lives with him and knows his mannerisms and stuff, but she is not in his head or in his heart. For all we know, he could be TOTALLY LOST inside and really hurting, but he sure as heck can't turn to his wife because she's holding his hands to the fire! WE are not in his head. 

So rather than assuming he has no empathy and he is dictating the terms of the marriage, I'm going to encourage tobio to do her part--which is actually ASKING HIM OUT LOUD if her assumption or assignment is correct. My guess is that she's going to be surprised to discover that not only does he understand, but he feels that way too! Or that he totally GETS how she feels and even why...but being a nice, clueless guy has no idea what to do to make it better. That is not minimizing her pain. That is "not knowing what to do" and when you don't know what to do, sometimes doing nothing until you DO know what to do is best. And it will learn to understand her deep hurt and anxiety much better and empathize much more fully if she shares it with him--not in that "tongue-lashing" kind of way but in that "let me paint you a picture of what this feels like" kind of way. If she can use a metaphor, or an example he can relate to, he will come to understand... and then also maybe be better equipped TO empathize. 

Make sense? [/threadjack]


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## tobio

Wow AC thanks for all that  I have read through a number of times now, getting it to sink in.

Something has happened. I am not sure what. But he seems to be purging himself today. He is brutally honest, saying what he is thinking and has been thinking about. He has actually been very insightful.

#1: He has been thinking about his role in what happened, and owning it. He basically acknowledged he MUST have done something to get her interest. He's still not sure about this, I think because he does not feel he "intentionally" set it up or ever intended to take it further.

#2: He is realising the effects of what he has done. It was something I said when I was talking about her, about she knew about me and our children yet she went ahead anyway, and now is off doing whatever she is doing not giving it a second thought. I think the second part of that hit home with him, he came back to it, the effects of what he had done, something so relatively "small."

#3: He is acutely aware of himself as a guy and his feelings. We were driving earlier and drove past a couple of pretty girls. He said (and I quote), "I don't know what's the matter with me. I'm always on the lookout for new meat. Is it true the more sex you have, the more you want?" Now, this was pretty hard for me to take, but I didn't overreact. He kind of talks about eyeing up women as "body parts." Ie a nice pair of boobs, nice ass, good legs. It is very significant to him that he is not looking at the "person"- to him that would be disrespectful to me? (Bear with me given what we are talking about...) He said that it is the "variety" that he seeks out visually. Ok. Now, given I don't "think" he is the type to have a full-blown affair, and the fact that he says he is carrying an awful lot of guilt, should I be worried about this?

#4: The guilt. He just feels so awfully, terribly guilty. He says it every day, usually in response to if I get upset.

#5: His acknowledgement of why he was withholding affection. He told me earlier that he is very resentful of the fact I had children before we met (I knew this already but I never realised until these last few days just how HUGE this was for him.) When my two were naughty, he would feel irritated and annoyed, and says that in his mind, it was MY fault because they are MY children. He built up a HUGE amount of resentment against me because of this, and voila - it came out by withholding something I wanted. A means to control the situation, albeit a messed-up one.


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## Conrad

Tobio,

This is HUGE.

Is he able to discipline your children or does he simply defer to you?

If they are "off limits", he will resent them.


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## tobio

He is welcome to discipline them, I have encouraged him to play a more active role the more involved he has become in their lives.

I suspect there are a couple of elements at play. Firstly, we differ on our parenting styles. I am a very "positive parenting" type, and admit I am at times too soft. He is more strict as he feels this benefits them more in the long-term, and wishes I were more this way, he feels they don't always show me respect because of this.

Secondly, he feels he is limited on what he can say or do because he is not their biological father. He quotes times when his divorced mother had a boyfriend who tried to discipline him and he had no respect for him trying to do this, retorting that he "wasn't his father." He feels that as they get older, they will use this line on him and his attempts at discipline won't work.

It makes me feel rather sad at times because my second child was only just under a year when me and him met so all she has known at home is him as a father figure.


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## Conrad

Tobio,

You've just identified the heartbeat of what's wrong in your marriage.

It's quite difficult to be the "Homecoming Dad", - oh baby you look so gorgeous and you are turning into quite the woman...

when you can't be the:

"Please pick up your socks" father

One does not happen without the other.

He has to have his place with them. If he's ***** footing around afraid of their disapproval, the resentment will transfer over to you.

I promise this is true.

Talk to him about this - in these words.


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## tobio

Conrad

I'm thinking over what you said. 

I should clarify here- he doesn't *****foot around. At all. He is the opposite, he dives right in, he doesn't seem to grasp the concept of giving a warning about bad behaviour, instead he sees questionable behaviour, goes straight for the punishment rather than the warning FIRST. He often skips over the fact that something might have happened that was an accident (eg a spilt drink) and immediately assumes it was a deliberate act and punishes how he feels appropriate, and, at times I feel rather extremely (eg spilt drink = sent to bed.)

He feels my two are overly naughty/disobedient. I feel they are no more naughty than any other children their age, in fact I would say they were exactly representative of any kid their age.

I also feel he almost EXPECTS them to play up, and talks to them accordingly. Thus a whole lot of what he says to them is negative. Sometimes the only things he will say between getting home from work and their bedtime are tellings off, or warnings ("I don't want you getting up from the table during dinner") and I worry they will become a self-fulfilling prophecy, ie if they feel he expects them to behave badly, then they feel they may as well do so. I try to encourage chat over dinner about what the older two have been doing at school, what they have coming up, might mention a good comment from a teacher about a piece of work, he will give it lip service but he is not *involved* with them per se, that is my department.

It has provoked comments from both older kids (bear in mind my second is only 4 years old) about why he doesn't go to class assemblies, parents' evenings, things like that. They have regular contact with their biological dad- who OH is old friends with- and I do also feel OH doesn't really know where he fits in.


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## golfergirl

tobio said:


> Conrad
> 
> I'm thinking over what you said.
> 
> I should clarify here- he doesn't *****foot around. At all. He is the opposite, he dives right in, he doesn't seem to grasp the concept of giving a warning about bad behaviour, instead he sees questionable behaviour, goes straight for the punishment rather than the warning FIRST. He often skips over the fact that something might have happened that was an accident (eg a spilt drink) and immediately assumes it was a deliberate act and punishes how he feels appropriate, and, at times I feel rather extremely (eg spilt drink = sent to bed.)
> 
> He feels my two are overly naughty/disobedient. I feel they are no more naughty than any other children their age, in fact I would say they were exactly representative of any kid their age.
> 
> I also feel he almost EXPECTS them to play up, and talks to them accordingly. Thus a whole lot of what he says to them is negative. Sometimes the only things he will say between getting home from work and their bedtime are tellings off, or warnings ("I don't want you getting up from the table during dinner") and I worry they will become a self-fulfilling prophecy, ie if they feel he expects them to behave badly, then they feel they may as well do so. I try to encourage chat over dinner about what the older two have been doing at school, what they have coming up, might mention a good comment from a teacher about a piece of work, he will give it lip service but he is not *involved* with them per se, that is my department.
> 
> It has provoked comments from both older kids (bear in mind my second is only 4 years old) about why he doesn't go to class assemblies, parents' evenings, things like that. They have regular contact with their biological dad- who OH is old friends with- and I do also feel OH doesn't really know where he fits in.


Blended families suck! My H came on scene when kids were 11 and 14. He doesn't tell them anything but gets mad when I don't do things his way. It's like he joined the family expecting all of us to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

Tobio,

If you are able to solve this - through counseling, discussion, or whatever - you will have the win/win you seek.

Listen to him. Talk to him. Get a 3rd party if you need it.

Once you bridge this gap, you'll have what Stephen Covey calls the "3rd Way" - a way that both can win without a loser.

When his dignity is intact, and he doesn't feel that the kids compete with him for your heart?

Transformation is so possible. He's a good man. He would not have confessed if he wasn't.


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## tobio

Conrad said:


> Tobio,
> 
> If you are able to solve this - through counseling, discussion, or whatever - you will have the win/win you seek.
> 
> Listen to him. Talk to him. Get a 3rd party if you need it.
> 
> Once you bridge this gap, you'll have what Stephen Covey calls the "3rd Way" - a way that both can win without a loser.
> 
> When his dignity is intact, and he doesn't feel that the kids compete with him for your heart?
> 
> Transformation is so possible. He's a good man. He would not have confessed if he wasn't.


I think he is a good man who messed up and knows it. I also know he "loves me to bits" and never really intended to leave, he just felt pressed into a corner.

I just need to know how to negotiate how we can make this work for him. First session of counselling is tomorrow. 

The affection he is showing, I feel confident this will continue, even if on a more moderate level.

We aren't actually married yet was one thing I have been thinking about- the plan was to go away together when the baby is one later on this year. Not sure what to do with that now; obviously haven't mentioned it and won't for a while unless he does but have been thinking whether to just leave that for a while until things settle.


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## Catherine602

Thank you Affaircare, I send you a PM so that I don't take away from Tabio's need for assistance. . I'll say this though, the hardest thing to do is to not assume you really understand a persons or statements. You perception is colored by experience and the default seems to be to assume you decoded correctly. That what communication really is I guess, decoding things from the other persons point of view.

You are quite right about dealing with the partner who is here, there is not much you can do for the other person if control is to be avoided. Thank you again, I'm getting allot out of following Tabio's thread. Thanks Tabio for being so forthright, I think this is helping many of us and I wish you the very best.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

tobio said:


> I think he is a good man who messed up and knows it. I also know he "loves me to bits" and never really intended to leave, he just felt pressed into a corner.
> 
> I just need to know how to negotiate how we can make this work for him. First session of counselling is tomorrow.
> 
> The affection he is showing, I feel confident this will continue, even if on a more moderate level.
> 
> We aren't actually married yet was one thing I have been thinking about- the plan was to go away together when the baby is one later on this year. Not sure what to do with that now; obviously haven't mentioned it and won't for a while unless he does but have been thinking whether to just leave that for a while until things settle.


Actually, once you work this out, marriage will be the next logical step.

Once he has a "place" with your children where he is comfortable, he'll be ready to lead - without self doubt.

It's a trite saying, but I really wish you well.

I actually think you will look back and see what happened here as a good thing. It helped you break a logjam where you felt completely helpless.


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## tobio

I was going to post that counselling went well. OH spoke a lot, I was pleased, and he was open to returning again for regular sessions.

However...

We returned home after. OH had some dinner and disappeared into the conservatory with the baby. I sensed something was amiss, so I went in and sat with him, asked him what was up.

He said he had something to tell me, but nothing for me to worry about... He told me that last week, the day he had to pop into the site where the girl was based, he didn't see her there, but he bought her some sweets. He left them at reception for her, and yesterday morning, she texted him to say "thanks." He said he told me because he knew I'd more than likely see it on his phone and he didn't want me to get the wrong idea.

I mean, WTF???!!!! I asked him WHY was he doing that? He rambled on, saying he thought then about what I'd said about taking responsibility for his part, and he sort of did it to say "sorry" and to be nice??? I said, woah boy, sorry? Sorry for what? She's not anything to you, you don't need to be nice to her or be anything to her!

He kept saying he knew as he was doing it was a stupid thing it was, he doesn't really know why he did it, he realised she might get the wrong idea, hell yes, he's given her an "in" now!

He didn't tell me then because he didn't think it meant anything- I said, I think I ought to be the judge of that! And I pointed out, what about those occasions that he got so angry and frustrated because he insisted he had told me the whole truth, and in fact he hadn't? He said he hadn't viewed it as contact between them so hadn't told me because of that.

I said I was quite worried he could be hiding more from me, that I might find out next week that they had a bit of a grope and fondle but he didn't tell me because "it didn't mean anything, honest", and the week after that that they slept together but he didn't tell me because it didn't matter, because he "hasn't got feelings for her, I didn't think it was important..."

He was being uber-nice, asking did I want to talk, did I want to ask anything, see his phones, could he do anything to help, he's so sorry, and are we gonna be ok? 

I said I couldn't say anything right now because I needed time to process it but that I felt very hurt and he's made things worse after all the work we've done already to go forward.

He tried to snuggle up last night but I couldn't do it, I look at him and I feel pity- he's so pathetic that he can't even explain WHY- I said he needs to be honest with himelf because acting stupid is making it a whole lot worse.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

tobio said:


> I was going to post that counselling went well. OH spoke a lot, I was pleased, and he was open to returning again for regular sessions.
> 
> However...
> 
> We returned home after. OH had some dinner and disappeared into the conservatory with the baby. I sensed something was amiss, so I went in and sat with him, asked him what was up.
> 
> He said he had something to tell me, but nothing for me to worry about... He told me that last week, the day he had to pop into the site where the girl was based, he didn't see her there, but he bought her some sweets. He left them at reception for her, and yesterday morning, she texted him to say "thanks." He said he told me because he knew I'd more than likely see it on his phone and he didn't want me to get the wrong idea.
> 
> I mean, WTF???!!!! I asked him WHY was he doing that? He rambled on, saying he thought then about what I'd said about taking responsibility for his part, and he sort of did it to say "sorry" and to be nice??? I said, woah boy, sorry? Sorry for what? She's not anything to you, you don't need to be nice to her or be anything to her!
> 
> He kept saying he knew as he was doing it was a stupid thing it was, he doesn't really know why he did it, he realised she might get the wrong idea, hell yes, he's given her an "in" now!
> 
> He didn't tell me then because he didn't think it meant anything- I said, I think I ought to be the judge of that! And I pointed out, what about those occasions that he got so angry and frustrated because he insisted he had told me the whole truth, and in fact he hadn't? He said he hadn't viewed it as contact between them so hadn't told me because of that.
> 
> I said I was quite worried he could be hiding more from me, that I might find out next week that they had a bit of a grope and fondle but he didn't tell me because "it didn't mean anything, honest", and the week after that that they slept together but he didn't tell me because it didn't matter, because he "hasn't got feelings for her, I didn't think it was important..."
> 
> He was being uber-nice, asking did I want to talk, did I want to ask anything, see his phones, could he do anything to help, he's so sorry, and are we gonna be ok?
> 
> I said I couldn't say anything right now because I needed time to process it but that I felt very hurt and he's made things worse after all the work we've done already to go forward.
> 
> He tried to snuggle up last night but I couldn't do it, I look at him and I feel pity- he's so pathetic that he can't even explain WHY- I said he needs to be honest with himelf because acting stupid is making it a whole lot worse.


he is at the least extremely inconsiderate of you, your feelings and what you are going through at this time with him already.

i would be inclined to think there might be more going on and he just offered up a stupid excuse before you could think he was still messing around with her. 

i would have this exact same thing done to me only to find out it was a preconceived story for me when she was doing much more. she thought she was being very smart and sneaky.

i would still be on the look out for more going on still.


----------



## Affaircare

Tobio~

Before we go TOO far down the "He's a rascal for not telling you the whole truth" path and tarring and feathering him, I would like to point out something to you. *This is likely a bit of a test.* You two went to counseling and it went alright and he was heard. You've been telling him that you want to hear the truth. He told you the truth...and one that you may have never known if he hadn't told you. The test is this: What are you going to teach him about telling the truth? 

Do you REALLY want him to tell you the truth? Or do you want him to tell you what you want to hear because the truth is too hurtful to hear? What if the truth is hurtful? What's he supposed to do then? If he DOES tell you the truth, are you going to "reward" him with screaming and punishment and teach him that telling you the truth hurts ("Man, I am never doing that again!)? Or are you going to teach him that what he said hurt you but you do appreciate that he was willing to be open? 

I would personally suggest that you make sure he knows that you are happy (yes, I mean that word...HAPPY) that he told you the truth. That was a big risk on his part. I would also personally suggest that you not "punish" him by withholding or by attacking. This is a perfect opportunity to teach him that telling you the truth--even a HARD, SCARY truth--is safe. 

THEN, for you I would suggest taking some time until your emotions settle a little. Tell him that what he said and did hurt you and you need some time so you don't do a knee-jerk reaction and react out of the pain. After your brain does kick back in, this would be a perfect opportunity to be transparent with him and show him logically WHY you don't trust his honesty...because you keep tripping over these landmines and just when you think you're safe another one blows up in your face. Again, use W-T-F-S and explain what you need: *1) a No Contact Letter* that he writes and you mail to her...and if he can not stop himself from contacting her he will need to quit his job. That is a cost of his unfaithfulness. *2) Transparency*. If he wants to show you his phone, check his phone and then compare it to the bill. Every time that his words and actions MATCH it will build trust in his honesty. Every time he shows you the phone and messages are deleted or don't match the bill...it will destroy trust in his honesty. But by the same token YOU also need to be transparent with HIM, and that includes sharing what's going on in your head and heart. *3) Commitment.* It's my personal opinion that both of you are showing commitment to working on this: you by being level-headed, self-aware, and facing yourself; him by taking the risk to be honest, going to the counseling and opening up, and showing he is willing to do the work and DOING the work that needs to be done. 

Please don't despair and don't punish him This is a test. So what are you going to teach him about being honest with you?


----------



## tobio

AC

I pre-empted you there! I was confused and lashed out- a little- initially. But I actually emphasised later that I was GLAD he told me, thanked him in fact, and that I feel pleased he told me. It was SO BLOODY HARD to tone down my disbelief and I felt sick with myself for having to say it.

I actually JOKED with him earlier when he got in from work. "So, before we carry on our day, is there anything I ought to know? Been buying Love Heart sweets for anyone today?" He joined in a little, I asked if she'd been in contact, or he had (no), but he took it too far, "I could have been texting women all day long and you wouldn't know about it!"

But what I don't get... is WHY he did that, and WHY he didn't tell me. My calculations (lol) tell me he did that earlier on the same day we agreed he'd move back from his mums. He said he'd been to that site but I completely believed what he said- he didn't see her, she wasn't there, that was it. I *think* he was still missing seeing her every day, the attention I guess. People don't do stuff for no reward, so I can only assume he was hoping she'd get back in touch.

Then we resolved things, he realised he wants to be here, with me, and that he'd made an error. But he's been protesting all week that he's been totally honest. And he hasn't. It looks to me the only reason he told me was that she texted him and he knew I'd likely see it on his phone- not because he thought I should know.

My mind keeps racing now with what else I might not know. Anyone care to offer any insight into WHY he might've done it, not told me, then told me? I'm worrying I may have "doormat" tattooed across my forehead and that I've only seen the tip of what's happened...


----------



## Catherine602

I just want to ask this - her husband must know that the things that he does will hurt his wife, yet he does them and i believe, knowing full well that he will tell her. 

He hurts his wife to perform an unnecessary nicety to someone who he says means nothing to him. By this action, it seems she does mean something to him else, why would he ignore the hurt he will brings to his wife, to make sure she keeps him in her mind and maybe contact him.

The conventional wisdom is that when a relationship fails it is the fault of both people, I don't believe that. Sometimes people who are bad risk for a relationship hide that fact until they are safe to reveal themselves. 

The partner has no part in their pre-existing pathology. Just the picture of this man presented here, it seems he has a basic personality problem. If so these are intractable and seldom change. 

I ask myself what kind of person is this? Is he really clueless, I don't think so. He knows exactly what he is doing and for reasons that are beyond knowing, he is doing things to keep Tabio hopping, in pain and off base. 

Is he cruel, self-absorbed, incapable of love, deeply insecure, intimacy avoiding? He sounds at lest to have problems with intimacy because he does things that keep Tabio at a distance, the withdrawal of affection, kissing this girl, the unnecessary gift, talking about the girl, telling Tabio about looking at other women, telling her other women find him attractive, being mean to her kids, saying he could text woman and she would not know about it. Is he toxic? 

Tabio only you know what he is like - if you ignore what he says and look at his behavior towards you and your children throughout your whole relationship even before this incident, what do you see. 

If you made a balance sheet and list the relationship affirming qualities and the distancing, relationship destroying qualities what do you see? Are the bad qualities so damaging to you and your kids that it would be better that you let him go? 

What has your life been like with him. Have you felt secure loved and a full partner in his life? Why do you want him in your life? Is it because your lives are enhanced by being together or just because you love him. Is your love enough? 

Do you see a future with him where there is a possibility of a caring, loving man who will not eeeff up the lives of your kids; who will avoid doing things that he knows hurts you as he apparently has a penchant for. Does he seem to have a capacity for empathy, and self awareness? Does he seem to want to change for the better or is he clueless. He seems childlike, not very sexually attractive. Has he had any successful relationships with woman, family or friends? 

If you leave him, he will find someone else and no doubt quickly and go through a lot of women maybe. . He may have short-term or long-term relationships but if he remains as he is now, women will fall out of love. Don't think unhappy thoughts though Tabio, know this, I guarantee that he will deeply regret not having you in his life. From your communication, it is obvious that you are a rare woman, not easy to forget. Sometimes the most painful things turn out to be blessings. When you attract that man who will love you fully then you will know. 

Choose carefully next time get to know them and as soon as they show signs of abuse, move on quickly. Abusive men find the woman who they know will take their abuse. If you are too kind, nurturing and give more that you get, that attracts abusive, dependent men or substance abusers. They look for someone to lean on and support them.

From all of the things you have said of his actions in the past, he does not sound like a nice person. Does he have any close friends, he does not sound like a person anyone would want to be around. He seems needlessly cruel and destructive to his wife and he consciously or unconsciously means to make her life a misery it seems. His one good quality is that he cares a great deal about himself. I suppose nice people can be loved but by masochist!!! 

I am speculating of course I don't know his motives whether he is unaware or aware but so damaged that he can not help being cruel but does his motives make any difference? he does what he does, he may or may not change. The real question I have for Tabio is, do you want to live with this.


----------



## Trenton

Unless he is completely daft, he knew giving her sweets was wrong and furthering their dance of a relationship.

*So even in telling you the truth he is still lying because he won't admit he knew it was wrong!*

Maybe he's lying to himself...but...still...


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

Catherine602 said:


> I just want to ask this - her husband must know that the things that he does will hurt his wife, yet he does them and i believe, knowing full well that he will tell her.
> 
> He hurts his wife to perform an unnecessary nicety to someone who he says means nothing to him. By this action, it seems she does mean something to him else, why would he ignore the hurt he will brings to his wife, to make sure she keeps him in her mind and maybe contact him.


exactly, he owed this OW absolutely NOTHING.
he OWES his wife EVERYTHING.


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## Therealbrighteyes

2nd_t!me iz_best said:


> exactly, he owed this OW absolutely NOTHING.
> he OWES his wife EVERYTHING.


Exactly! I have already said the other shoe hasn't dropped yet either.

BTW....kuddos on Syrum. She is remarkable.


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

Brennan said:


> Exactly! I have already said the other shoe hasn't dropped yet either.


my thoughts exactly.



> BTW....kuddos on Syrum. She is remarkable.


thanks Brennan, i COMPLETELY agree. :smthumbup:


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## Catherine602

Brennan said:


> Exactly! I have already said the other shoe hasn't dropped yet either.
> 
> BTW....kuddos on Syrum. She is remarkable.


what do you mean Brennan about Syrum.


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## Therealbrighteyes

Catherine602 said:


> what do you mean Brennan about Syrum.


He is her fiance. "Loving my Syrum in Oz" is his tag line. 
She really is awesome and a poster here. Love her!


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## Catherine602

Brennan said:


> He is her fiance. "Loving my Syrum in Oz" is his tag line.
> She really is awesome and a poster here. Love her!


LOVE IT - 

I have seen her post and 2nd time's as well, she mentions her fiance frequently. So that's the lucky guy for the equally lucky Syrum.

Hi Syrum and 2nd. :flowerkitty:


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## tobio

I just want to say before I post anything else, that OH found this thread. We had a bit of a barney because his mobile bill came, which I opened and put in my bag, which in hindsight I shouldn't have been secretive about, which he didn't like. He is right; he doesn't like his mail being opened and said I should have waited until he got home, which I agree with.

He was sat with the laptop, I can only assume he was having a look to see what I'd been looking at (ie snooping) and found this in the browser history. I caught a glimpse but didn't say anything, and neither did he, and then I had to disappear upstairs as the baby woke up. So we haven't had chance to talk about it. He came up nearly two hours later and has looked through all but the last page. He woke me up to snuggle up and has gone to work now, but I'm not sure what to say to him about it.


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## AFEH

It might be a good thing Tobio. Sometimes people do things in like an “Unaware State”. Sure they know what they are doing is very wrong, but just don’t have a clue about the depth of the impact of what they do on other people. And they don’t have a clue about the short, medium and long term consequences of their behaviour.

So if OH has read your thread he will get a good view and maybe even an understanding and empathy of how what he has done has affected you. Plus he will clearly see how others here interpreted his actions and what they thought about them.

Bob


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## Syrum

tobio said:


> I just want to say before I post anything else, that OH found this thread. We had a bit of a barney because his mobile bill came, which I opened and put in my bag, which in hindsight I shouldn't have been secretive about, which he didn't like. He is right; he doesn't like his mail being opened and said I should have waited until he got home, which I agree with.
> 
> He was sat with the laptop, I can only assume he was having a look to see what I'd been looking at (ie snooping) and found this in the browser history. I caught a glimpse but didn't say anything, and neither did he, and then I had to disappear upstairs as the baby woke up. So we haven't had chance to talk about it. He came up nearly two hours later and has looked through all but the last page. He woke me up to snuggle up and has gone to work now, but I'm not sure what to say to him about it.


Oh well, it's a good thing you did, because now he can use it to deflect the issues once again from what he is really doing.

Seriously though, he has done the wrong thing and it pales in comparison to you checking his bill. In fact he should be completely transparent to you for as long as it takes for you to feel comfortable with him. If he cant do that he's just not worth it IMO.


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## tobio

AFEH said:


> It might be a good thing Tobio. Sometimes people do things in like an “Unaware State”. Sure they know what they are doing is very wrong, but just don’t have a clue about the depth of the impact of what they do on other people. And they don’t have a clue about the short, medium and long term consequences of their behaviour.
> 
> So if OH has read your thread he will get a good view and maybe even an understanding and empathy of how what he has done has affected you. Plus he will clearly see how others here interpreted his actions and what they thought about them.
> 
> Bob


Bob- I think your description of the "Unaware State" is spot-on for OH.



Syrum said:


> Oh well, it's a good thing you did, because now he can use it to deflect the issues once again from what he is really doing.
> 
> Seriously though, he has done the wrong thing and it pales in comparison to you checking his bill. In fact he should be completely transparent to you for as long as it takes for you to feel comfortable with him. If he cant do that he's just not worth it IMO.


I had to laugh at what you said

Honestly? In the past, OH has been critical of me posting anything personal on forums. But his actions last night- to read through nearly this entire thread- and his reaction last night- to wake me up to snuggle- tells me his reading this has had some kind of effect. I was hoping it would as you said Bob, give him some empathy and understanding of how this has affected me and us.

I want to say also, that since he told me, he has been affectionate. It has been lovely. He has not swayed in this, he has been very considerate of being affectionate, from the littler things, like the touch on the arm when he walks past, to hugs, sitting with me, stuff like that. I have almost wondered if from somewhere HE feels a need for affection, to confirm I still love him IYSWIM- because he knows that is how I "give" love instinctively, he is seeing if I still respond that way, like a test I guess.

I always thought he was a "keeper" Catherine. Yes he has struggled with the family issues, but he has tried. When he talks about the kids, he always says we have four children, talks about them like this own. He works darn hard, in a job he admits he HATES, to support us all, and he felt I didn't appreciate how much he puts in. I do feel that people aren't perfect and make mistakes, I can give him another chance if he continues to work with me, and he IS putting in the effort despite his more recent revelation. I feel the remorse/empathy/understanding will come- he is not completely insensitive, I just think he is as Bob described, but not in a malicious or duplicitous way, just a bit (lot? ) clueless.

I will chat with him later and see what he has to say about what he read.


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## Catherine602

Wow I hope everything will be OK Tabio. 

One thing is that what he read - most of the posters, with the exception of Affaircare, had sympathies that were slanted towards you because you are the injured party and you are obviously hurt. We don't know his pain and injury, all we know is that he did the inexcusable, he cheated or is still cheating. 

It struck me anew when you mention that he is supporting you all at a job he hates. It must be brutal to go to work every day at a job you hate. Do you get child support from your oldest children's father?

A man who supports another man's children as well as his own, is no throw away. He must have been unhappy for a while if he is working at a job he hates with no end in sight. 

You both have been working hard you with the kids and home and he in the outside world but it seems you may have been leading parallel lives. Existing from day to day avoiding discussing fears and grips and grievances. 

Let me play devils advocate here ------ Does the fact that he is unhappy in his work make you anxious? So much so that you have difficulty hearing him talk about it. 

If he hates his job he needs someone to talk about it to and someone to support him coming up with plans to acquire more satisfactory employment. If he makes his wife too anxious talking about it he may find someone more sympathetic. 

I am not saying that you have to stuff your feelings so that he can air his but, when he is talking about something he is feeling and it makes you anxious, don't cut him off. Stay with it, hear him out, have faith that he will have a plan. 

If you shut him down you are telling him that you don't care how he feels and you don't trust him to be able to express unhappiness and come up with a plan to get to a better place. Does this sound like something that has happened to you both?

Of course he can't shut you down either when you express anxiety, and your grips and grievances. If you two become safe harbors for each other then you will be able to discuss fear and anxiety with out judging each other. 

I'll bet that when you both make a conscious effort to recognize the unique things that you both bring to the relationship, thinks will improve dramatically. Say it out loud to each other and thank each other. 

PS when you said that you felt sorry for him it seemed to boarder on contempt. I am not sure. Contempt is a very destructive emotion so you have to look at that. But watch any feelings that he is somehow unable to understand and control his destiny. 

If you want to stay with him, decide to have faith in him and support him unless he really does do something contemptible. What he has done is heartless, selfish, and deceptive but mitigating circumstances does not make him contemptible, as far as I can see.

You are not out of the woods by a long shot. I really hope things work out, it seems the prognosis is good, the people involved are sound folks.


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## Affaircare

Tobio~

May I recap just to be sure I have the facts straight?

Your hubby is 30-something and in construction, so he's physically strong and probably built a little...and being 30-something may be noticing that some things are not the way they were when he was in his 20's. So chances are that part of him was wondering "if he still had it" and a less-than-honorable lady at one work location knew he was married but was willing to demonstrate that "he still had it" by flirting a little. 

At first he liked the attention and flirting like a pleasant past-time, and being happily clueless, he thought of it as a harmless past-time. But then the work at the location ended, and he went in for the hug goodbye and she went for it and kissed him. (Assuming his facts  ). Right at that point he KNEW it had crossed a line and it was not cool. 

So showing some character, and at some significant risk of being yelled at, etc. , he did come to you and tell you: "Something uncool has occurred and I need you to know about it." Your response was very understandably some anger and you told him to sleep at his mother's because you needed space to figure out what to do and what to think. You came here, got your head on straight, and didn't do anything rash. 

While he was at his mother's, he moved on to a new location and during that time was probably missing the attention of said unethical lady a bit. Most disloyals typically go through some degree of withdrawal after ending all contact, so our good guess is that he missed it ... sort of. He wasn't sure if the marriage was over or if you'd divorce him, but you two did talk now and then. At the end of that time he had to go back to the OW's location one last time for work. 

That day, he went to her location, she was not there, but he left her a goodbye treat of some kind. Since he didn't see her he didn't think it was contact (although we both know that some part of him likely knew that it wasn't smart). That night, you and he decided to try to fix the marriage and he moved home. 

Since that time, he has been open with you, honest that you can tell, working on being affectionate, asking you if you're okay and what you're thinking/feeling, talking with you as much as non-feeler guys do, going to counseling and actually participating. In other words he's actually trying and working at it! Likewise you are trying to practice W-T-F-S more and share with him your side and give him the chance to comfort you. So the issue isn't so much that you suspect the affair is ongoing or that he's trying to contact secretively ... BUT he said he had told you everything and now all-of-a-sudden she left a message "Thank you" for the treat. 

Again showing some character, and at some significant risk of being yelled at, etc. , he did come to you and tell you. Likewise, also showing considerable character, you expressed anger inappropriately at first (for just a bit) then remembered he was honest, and got it back together. After that, you had left your PC open with TAM on it (or he found it in "history" or something) and now he has read your thread and knows all about how you feel, etc. Is that about where we stand?

Honestly, I know that *some* of the things said here were not the most complimentary way of saying things, but I don't see a whole lot of us encouraging you to tear him a new one or "dump him" or any of that. At time you express how you truly feel--unencumbered because you're anonymous--and at other time you need a point in the right direction and take the time to make a wise decision. All things considered, I would say that him discovering this thread is probably GOOD because now it's all out in the open. His thing--your feelings--all of it is right out in front of you and you can discuss it together ON THE SAME TEAM. You don't have to hide how you feel anymore because he knows...and look how he responded! He wanted to cuddle. He doesn't have to hide how he feels needing a little admiration because look how you responded! Okay? It's all out, and now that we see how deep the "infection" runs, we can clean it and work to fix it. 

Sooooo...regarding this latest discovery, here's my thought. This is a GREAT opportunity to explain to him why these little landmine discoveries set everything back, and why completely honesty/transparency is SOOOOO important. I bet he honestly didn't think anything of it, and now thinks, "Oh [email protected] I got this text! I forgot about that! How do I explain this now!?" Well.... if there had been transparency you would have known all along and there would be no setback. So see how this is a great learning opportunity for you both as a couple? 

Also, can you see on your side how damaging it can be to hide your true self from your spouse? Right now you're worried "Oh he read my thread!" Why? It's because you hid yourself here and you were showing him a false front. If my spouse (Dear Hubby) reads here, he can see exactly what I write always because he already knows about it! So in the same way that it sets you back to trip on a little landmine like the "treat/Thanks" message...it also sets your hubby back when he thinks you're doing fine no issues and all of a sudden your issue can't be suppressed anymore and it comes out of nowhere and blindsides him! 

So for both of you, this is a great chance to get on the same team: Team HONESTY.


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## Affaircare

By the way...










Hi Mr. Tobio! If you have questions, just ask! That's what we're here for.


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## tobio

Affaircare said:


> While he was at his mother's, he moved on to a new location and during that time was probably missing the attention of said unethical lady a bit. Most disloyals typically go through some degree of withdrawal after ending all contact, so our good guess is that he missed it ... sort of. He wasn't sure if the marriage was over or if you'd divorce him, but you two did talk now and then. At the end of that time he had to go back to the OW's location one last time for work.
> 
> That day, he went to her location, she was not there, but he left her a goodbye treat of some kind. Since he didn't see her he didn't think it was contact (although we both know that some part of him likely knew that it wasn't smart). That night, you and he decided to try to fix the marriage and he moved home.
> 
> Since that time, he has been open with you, honest that you can tell, working on being affectionate, asking you if you're okay and what you're thinking/feeling, talking with you as much as non-feeler guys do, going to counseling and actually participating. In other words he's actually trying and working at it! Likewise you are trying to practice W-T-F-S more and share with him your side and give him the chance to comfort you. So the issue isn't so much that you suspect the affair is ongoing or that he's trying to contact secretively ... BUT he said he had told you everything and now all-of-a-sudden she left a message "Thank you" for the treat.
> 
> Again showing some character, and at some significant risk of being yelled at, etc. , he did come to you and tell you. Likewise, also showing considerable character, you expressed anger inappropriately at first (for just a bit) then remembered he was honest, and got it back together. After that, you had left your PC open with TAM on it (or he found it in "history" or something) and now he has read your thread and knows all about how you feel, etc. Is that about where we stand?


I don't know if this is a small point, but I worked out yesterday that when he went to leave her a "treat", it was after he'd moved back in and we were officially "working on things." He told me he'd been into that site, but all he said was that she wasn't there so he hadn't seen her. I gather he knew she wouldn't be there. This was also the day he got VERY angry and nearly drove into the back of a lorry because he insisted he had "told me everything".

I suppose I'm upset because of his insistence that he was being truthful, and his ability to twist the truth- because he didn't "lie" about it, but rather didn't mention it, and said he just saw it as giving sweets to a friend, that he didn't think it mattered/it was inconsequential, that he's justifying it to himself as somehow ok. I said in that case why isn't he going round giving sweets to any of his other friends? 

At any rate, I bawled at him last night. He stood there and took it. He said he feels a massive amount of "shame." Is shame productive, healing or good? (Genuine question?) He bought me flowers later and said sorry.

i honestly think the remorse and empathy is going to be a long time coming- I really don't think he has much of a clue about how I am feeling, he wants to "forget about it and move on." We are employing now the 10 minutes idea where I get 10 min a day to talk about it and that's it otherwise it's going to take over I think.

OH wasn't very happy about some of the responses; he feels that some people were almost vindictive in their responses and I think it shook him up a bit. He wasn't happy about this whole thread so out of respect I think I'm going to stop posting for now. If anyone has any more qords of wisdom I'll certainly read them though, so thanks everyone


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## Neil

tobio said:


> OH wasn't very happy about some of the responses; he feels that some people were almost vindictive in their responses and I think it shook him up a bit. He wasn't happy about this whole thread so out of respect I think I'm going to stop posting for now. If anyone has any more qords of wisdom I'll certainly read them though, so thanks everyone


Maybe because he was getting a harsh lesson in the truth?

Let him read it, people on here don't dress things up.

And you stopping posting on here, better be purely YOUR decision and NOT HIS with absolutely no guilt involved, it has absolutely nothing to do with him if you post on here for advice or not, especially since you aren't the one who stuck your tongue down the throat of another person adn then went back and gave a "present"....

Jeeesh, this bloke doesn't know how lucky he has been, i've seen people break-up/divorce for a lot less.

And I would bet a pound to a penny, that if he saw your other "threads started", he wouldn't know what hit him. 

the fact that you are on here should tell him that you were looking for advice on how to make sure your relationship was saved/made better, and things haven't been rosy for a while have they?


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## AFEH

This is for Tobio’s OH.

Imagine that you’ve had a slight accident at work and you’ve been given the rest of the day off. You don’t call home as you want to surprise Tobio by having some free time with her. As you pull up outside your home you see Tobio in the arms of a neighbour and they’re kissing.

How do you feel?

When you ask Tobio what’s happening you have a gut feeling that she’s lying to you and not telling you the truth. How do you feel?

When you go to work the next day what you saw happening between your neighbour and your wife is constantly on your mind. You want to go home and check to see if she’s with your neighbour or not. How do you feel?

You know trust is just so important in marriages. But trust is one of those things that we don’t know the importance of until it’s no longer there.

My advice to you? Be transparent, be open and honest with Tobio. That bit “Because I didn’t tell you it doesn’t mean I lied to you” is crap. It’s lying by omission. You owe it to Tobio to get her trust in you back and the only way to do that is with transparency, openness and honesty.

Bob


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

Catherine602 said:


> LOVE IT -
> 
> I have seen her post and 2nd time's as well, she mentions her fiance frequently. So that's the lucky guy for the equally lucky Syrum.
> 
> Hi Syrum and 2nd. :flowerkitty:


 :iagree: yes, i think we are BOTH very lucky
thanks and hi Catherine602.

i think we are learning quite a bit cumming here BEFORE we get married. i sure am. 

and lots of good luck in what ever you decide tobio.


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## tobio

I feel so very sad. I don't feel so angry anymore, more sad. I almost feel like I'm grieving something.

I told OH this earlier. I said I feel sad and I hate feeling like this and sometimes I don't know if I'll get through it. I don't know what to do to make it better. It's not so much what he's done, silly as that sounds, it's how it seems to have permeated so many aspects of my life. Every thing that I/we do, I feel some kind of connection to what happened and how what happened makes things different. I realised earlier that I actually feel very resentful as well that I have these feelings, and have to deal with them, because of something HE did, and he doesn't have these feelings or have to deal with them.

He seems to understand- sort of. Like, he sees I'm upset and hurt, and appreciates that. Tries to do stuff to make me feel better, or asks what he can do. But I think we came the closest to what will make me feel better, which is knowing he knows how I feel, earlier. I gave Bob's example above, and OH said if what happened was reversed exactly then he WOULDN'T feel bothered by that. Ok. So I said what if it were different, that I had been sneaking around with someone and kissed them, how would he feel then? "Upset. Hurt I suppose, angry" - "well that IS how I've been feeling." Followed by some concrete examples, saying that every time he texts someone, someone calls him, he opens up the laptop, when he's at work, I'm ALWAYS wondering what he's doing, if it's to do with her, and I think he got that.

I said I felt like I was putting a wall between us, I guess to protect myself, and I didn't like that I was doing that. He offered to move out, if it was space I needed to help me feel better, but I don't think that would work, or be constructive. I do know that every time I open up, and he responds lovingly, I feel a little better. I'm just not sure what to do with ME.


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## Catherine602

Hi Tabio So glad to hear from you. I think of you often and hope things are progressing in the right direction. It sounds like it is going well. What do you do with yourself - give yourself a break, feel what you feel and go through the process of healing. It sounds like your husband (I'll call him that) is coming along very well. If you feel better in the main after you talk with him that means he is doing the right things to help you recover. 

In some way, when you are ready let him know that you will eventually stop having to bring up the incident so frequently, if at all, if he continues to help you heal. I'm not rushing you, just saying that it advisable to, at some point, control the urge to talk about the relationship when he is doing everything he can do. 

Be nice and patient with yourself. You have acted in an exemplary manner under the circumstances so give yourself some credit for that. Not all partner act as measure as you have. You are right not to ask him to leave you need each other. I would let him know that what he is doing is helping you. He needs to know that. 

I think your sadness is normal, in a sense you are trying to build a new relationship. The old one is dead and you are grieving what you had then. You have to work to reinvent yourself and build a new and better relationship. 

That's a difficult task especially when a traumatic event has jarred you into make changes. I hope you are still going to the gym and looking attractive. Don't let depression overtake and cause you to hide out. The road to recovery is getting out and healing your self image. You can not get that from anyone but you and you can not rely on just your husband for support. 

Work towards the point that you feel that if you wanted to meet someone else, your could but, you choose your husband. When you can actively choose your husband, you will feel more in control and be in a better place to love and be loved.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad

Catherine602 said:


> Hi Tabio So glad to hear from you. I think of you often and hope things are progressing in the right direction. It sounds like it is going well. What do you do with yourself - give yourself a break, feel what you feel and go through the process of healing. It sounds like your husband (I'll call him that) is coming along very well. If you feel better in the main after you talk with him that means he is doing the right things to help you recover.
> 
> In some way, when you are ready let him know that you will eventually stop having to bring up the incident so frequently, if at all, if he continues to help you heal. I'm not rushing you, just saying that it advisable to, at some point, control the urge to talk about the relationship when he is doing everything he can do.
> 
> Be nice and patient with yourself. You have acted in an exemplary manner under the circumstances so give yourself some credit for that. Not all partner act as measure as you have. You are right not to ask him to leave you need each other. I would let him know that what he is doing is helping you. He needs to know that.
> 
> I think your sadness is normal, in a sense you are trying to build a new relationship. The old one is dead and you are grieving what you had then. You have to work to reinvent yourself and build a new and better relationship.
> 
> That's a difficult task especially when a traumatic event has jarred you into make changes. I hope you are still going to the gym and looking attractive. Don't let depression overtake and cause you to hide out. The road to recovery is getting out and healing your self image. You can not get that from anyone but you and you can not rely on just your husband for support.
> 
> Work towards the point that you feel that if you wanted to meet someone else, your could but, you choose your husband. When you can actively choose your husband, you will feel more in control and be in a better place to love and be loved.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Good stuff.


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## AFEH

Hi Tobio, you are grieving something. You’re grieving what you thought your relationship was, the history, and you may well be grieving what you thought the future was going to be. It may well help you to Google “grieving process”. It’ll explain the emotions you are going through.

I can tell you that over time the intensity of the emotions that you feel will decrease, I think you’ve already experienced that. But the residual emotions of hurt, anger, sadness etc. remain for a while. As to whether those emotions go away completely is totally dependent on how the two of you work on the incidences that happened, the promises the two of you make between yourselves and how well you stick to those promises, especially your OH.

Forgiveness is key to a healthy future between the two of you. But sometimes before we can forgive, we need an apology. If OH is still reading here maybe this will help him How to Apologize - wikiHow.

Bob


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## tobio

I did google grieving within a relationship and found some interesting stuff. A couple of people's experiences I read resonated strongly, to do with EAs. I'm not saying what happened WAS an EA, but it scared me that the elements were there and it could have so easily gone further. I don't want to worry about something that DIDN'T happen, but I think there is a residual doubt left, that I could have so easily not known anything about it- but more that what if a similar situation comes up again, how would he handle that?

I mean, he goes to work, he comes into contact with different people at every job he does, there's always going to be women around, some will flirt, find him attractive, and I will worry about that. He's told me before of some REALLY overtly suggestive things women have done and said, and whilst previously I would have laughed with him, now I'll be wondering what he'd think if someone put it out there that they liked him, if they'd have made it obvious because of how HE'D behaved, intentionally or not, if he found them attractive, would he do anything, would he tell me, does he know where the line is drawn over what is appropriate or not (eg texting another woman, making friends on FB.)

He is being super nice, and I can't fault his attentions. Moreover, they feel really genuine and heartfelt.


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## Trenton

He had the beginning of a PA with the EA most likely happening before that. I don't think what your husband did was flirt with possibilities...he actually participated.


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## tobio

Deleted... That was going backwards not forwards.


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## Catherine602

tobio said:


> Deleted... That was going backwards not forwards.


Great, it's nice to see that you are controlling the urge to role backwards. It's an up hill battle at first but when you crest, you'll know it was worth the trip. 

Are you still taking care of yourself? Don't forget to give your husband a big hug and kiss!!


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## tobio

Been having a bad couple of days. I thought we were moving forwards; however I am finding my everyday thoughts being interrupted by random questions about what happened with the girl.

Always stuff I hadn't already thought about. Some seem terribly important (did he talk to her about us and she knew we hadn't been getting on? Why did he take her number "out of politeness only" yet use it to text her later?), other things I know are silly (did he buy her Love Heart sweets- silly but I like to do that for him now and again.)

He continues to be loving and caring, yet I have it in my head at the mo that he has minimised what happened. I can't get past this at the mo. What can I do?


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## Trenton

Read your post previous to your latest. If you want to go forward you have to make a choice to do this.

I would be doing the same as you in having many questions and issues over the whole ordeal as well as having a hard time trusting him but, quite frankly, I wouldn't be nearly as understanding or accepting of love and caring from him until I had settled myself emotionally with what he had done to me.


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## Conrad

tobio said:


> Been having a bad couple of days. I thought we were moving forwards; however I am finding my everyday thoughts being interrupted by random questions about what happened with the girl.
> 
> Always stuff I hadn't already thought about. Some seem terribly important (did he talk to her about us and she knew we hadn't been getting on? Why did he take her number "out of politeness only" yet use it to text her later?), other things I know are silly (did he buy her Love Heart sweets- silly but I like to do that for him now and again.)
> 
> He continues to be loving and caring, yet I have it in my head at the mo that he has minimised what happened. I can't get past this at the mo. What can I do?


Have you ever done any therapy sessions?


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## Catherine602

tobio said:


> Been having a bad couple of days. I thought we were moving forwards; however I am finding my everyday thoughts being interrupted by random questions about what happened with the girl.
> 
> Always stuff I hadn't already thought about. Some seem terribly important (did he talk to her about us and she knew we hadn't been getting on? Why did he take her number "out of politeness only" yet use it to text her later?), other things I know are silly (did he buy her Love Heart sweets- silly but I like to do that for him now and again.)
> 
> He continues to be loving and caring, yet I have it in my head at the mo that he has minimised what happened. I can't get past this at the mo. What can I do?


Try PM to Affaircare and see if her perspective helps. There is no way around this process. Although you can listen to advice you have to do it the way that works for you and your husband. It may not follow any prescribed rules. It does not hurt to listen to advice.

I would find it hard to not be able to ask questions until I was satisfied I worked things out so that I could move on. You will not be able to be truly intimate with him if you have to hide who you are. 

Do you hesitate because you think he will not respond well? He may continue to seem to minimize what happened, but how can you tell that. When you posted something to the effect that it was not an emotional affair. I did not want to challenge you on this, if it helped you to move on, but i think it is not. 

You are reacting to this as if it were an EA but trying to convince your self it was not. I think it was an emotional affair. That is one of the things you are grappling with. It is important to move forward but do so authentically or it will not work for you.

You may hide your true feelings out of fear now, but it inevitably comes out in unhealthy ways. So the question is how do you reveal yourself in a healthy way, accept the person he is and decide if you can come to trust and love him fully.

He is revealing some of himself too. Can you love the person he is? He is not the person you thought he was, and you are probably not to him either. Can you commit to love each other reveal yourselves and feel safe that the other person will accept you and still love you. You will only know if you try. 

The risk is always there that the relationship may not work out and that may be why you should begin to get yourself to a place where you can chose to stay or go. You chose to not be backed into a corner with only him having the choice to walk. Making a free choice may release your fear and you may be able to love and forgive him more easily and completely. 

Don't forget to give him a spontaneous hug to let him know he is doing the right thing by you.


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## Affaircare

tobio said:


> Been having a bad couple of days. I thought we were moving forwards; however I am finding my everyday thoughts being interrupted by random questions about what happened with the girl.
> 
> Always stuff I hadn't already thought about. Some seem terribly important (did he talk to her about us and she knew we hadn't been getting on? Why did he take her number "out of politeness only" yet use it to text her later?), other things I know are silly (did he buy her Love Heart sweets- silly but I like to do that for him now and again.)
> 
> He continues to be loving and caring, yet I have it in my head at the mo that he has minimised what happened. I can't get past this at the mo. What can I do?


First I just wanted to say that I'm glad you came back. I was worried you would "stay gone." 

Next, I want to clear up something right now. Faithfulness is defined as "forsaking all others" as in the vows, and that means that in order to honor his promise to you, he owes you "100% of his affection and loyalty." When a person is giving someone else even SOME of their affection or SOME of their loyalty over and above their spouse...they have been unfaithful. If I remember the facts correctly, your hubby did flirt with her a bit (giving some of his affection) and when you two were living apart and he wasn't sure where the marriage would head, he got her treats (giving some loyalty to her over you). In addition, whether she kissed him or he kissed her...they KISSED (giving affection). So no matter how much he wants to minimize it, he was unfaithful and you are not unreasonable to view it and treat it as if it is an EA. 

Finally I do have a suggestion for you both--you and Mr. Tobio--that I think would help YOU get through your concerns and questions and that I think would be reasonable for him. Give him the example I'm about to tell you so he kind of understands why you have these questions, and it should help him see why it makes sense. 

You two are working on this huge puzzle that is "Your Life." He has many, many pieces that you do not have and he put them together and is able to see the picture in the area that is the EA-Area. YOU do not have the same pieces and do not see the whole picture, so you are scrambling to find pieces and to make sense of the picture which you don't even see! As you ask questions, it gives you pieces, and the more pieces you have, the more you'll be able to see that big picture. 

[FYI--one issue I do see on the occasion is that a person will get a piece from their spouse and then keep asking over and over for the piece they already have. So just keep that in mind.]

So I suggest that you be transparent with him and let him know that you do still have questions about what occurred. Then you two agree together that you will ask him ONE question a day and he will answer ONE question fully and completely ("I don't know" does not count as an answer.) And agree together that you will restrict the talk to 30-60 minutes so that it doesn't turn into a four-hour Spanish Inquisition. Pick whatever amount of time you like (30 min., 45 min., etc.) and just agree. Then finally, once he has answered fully and completely and the agreed upon time is up, that you won't ask for that piece again (over and over) and the honest answer will not be held against him for a punishment. 

Does that make sense? Ask him--you need to know, and he needs to know why he did it and own what he did. Okay??


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## tobio

AC and everyone- thanks for your reponses. I have a few things I want to go through so in no particular order...

First off, we had an initial counselling session at the start of last week and are now awaiting a regular appointment slot.

Ah the minimising... Right. He has told me a lot of different little details, at different times. As time has gone from when he initially told me what happened, the "incident" and other things around it change during different conversations. He has gone from (in his words) kissing a girl and being unfaithful, to saying it was nothing and if the situation were reversed exactly, he wouldn't be bothered about me kissing someone else. A lot of the things are only little things, but it's the fact they keep changing.

AC- he WON'T own it. He says he does, he says he IS accountable, that he takes responsibility. But he HASN'T. He has very vaguely stated he "must have done something" to lead her to feel a kiss would be reciprocated. He hasn't said what it was he must have done. His take is basically he talked to her about random stuff, for the last few days he was there. He liked the attention of another woman but won't go so far as to say what constitutes attention apart from talking about holidays? Thus I am sat here trying to work out how they got from supposed random conversation over three or four days to her kissing him. Now he says he didn't even like her like that, yet took her number out of politeness, and texted her to be friendly. Now... I am never going to get any further with this until he can be accountable for his actions. As long as he's saying, "I DON'T KNOW why I went to say goodbye to her", "I DON'T KNOW why I hugged her when she asked," and "I DON'T KNOW WHAT I WAS THINKING when I took her number", then he is evading responsibility. He is playing dumb instead of taking ownership and I know this is a MAJOR obstacle for me, because as long as he can't 'fess up to knowing WHY he did these things, I can't believe he will, should he ever come across this situation again, act any differently. And I will not live in that state of wondering IF he knows where to draw the line in the future.

I should add, he is very acknowledging of my distress. He is being very caring. Very attentive. He IS answering questions I have, and being understanding if I am being quiet and just waiting until bad feeling passes. He has also said he feels guilt and shame. The thing is, he feels guilt towards me for causing me upset. He doesn't see that admitting the shame betrays his attempts to explain away what happened as "nothing"- because, if it WAS nothing, why did he confess to being unfaithful and why does he feel shame about it?

The puzzle analogy AC, I used this the other week to explain how I was feeling. He got it. However he withheld a piece when he neglected to tell me about leaving treats for her. He answers questions but EVERYTHING is innocent. He does not admit to weakness in any answer he gives. It's actually laughable when you step back and look- if you take his words, we are going through this situation because of something that meant nothing, that he never thought about, that he didn't have any active part in...


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## tobio

I think we had a bit of an epiphany last night.

I asked him a few questions that were on my mind. He answered- I can see it was with a heavy heart, the "oh no not this again" sigh, but he did.

I also realised something. Bear with me whilst I try to explain this.

I have been convinced he has not been 100% truthful. But... I realised my asking questions and wondering about things he said and how they happened, ISN'T that I think he's lying. It's not a disbelief in his words, but in his ACTIONS. I can for the most part believe what he tells me happened, I am just having trouble believing how he actually behaved.

I think my problem lies in accepting that he DID behave that way, in a way that crosses boundaries, and that either he did this because he didn't think, didn't realise it would hurt me, or didn't realise what he was doing was crossing a boundary. Or even that he MAY have realised but behaved that way anyway. I know it's such a cliche but I *never* would have thought it of him- and neither would he.

He did go some way last night in owning his part. He liked knowing she was keen on him and she made it clear to an awful lot of people there. What does upset me is that there was no boundaries set, she knew of me and the kids but he says he hardly mentioned me. It seems he had people encouraging him to make a move, he laughed it off as people "knew his situation" but it seems he neglected to make his situation (ie in a MONOGAMOUS relationship and no intentions of anything with anyone else) clear to her. He says in retrospect he put himself in a bad situation, had no idea she'd make a pass at him (!) but he still isn't totally appreciating that texting her is crossing a line- he continues to say he was being "friendly."

I also asked how do I know that if he found himself on the end of such attentions again, that he wouldn't do the same? "Of course I wouldn't, I'm not like that." 

He seems fixated on thinking that *I* am thinking he is carrying on, that I think he is the sort of person that would lie, cheat, establish a relationship behind my back. I think he has trouble understanding the meanings and possible intentions I have seen in his actions. For example: he came home from work and didn't say anything about what had happened. He texted her later that evening. TO ME, that looks secretive, like he was hiding what happened and possibly that he wanted to keep in touch. TO HIM, because he stopped it and walked off, it didn't "mean anything" and therefore he texted her later just being "friendly." He has trouble stepping back and seeing it from my perspective.

I have to choose to believe that either he stepped outside a boundary KNOWING what he was doing, or he did so COMPLETELY NOT REALISING. And neither feels better than the other tbh right now. And I *also* have to get to the point where I can BELIEVE he now grasps where the boundaries are and respects them before I feel confident about moving forward.


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## CrystalPalace

His openness and honesty about this should be really encouraging to you. He is displaying an extraordinary amount of courage and faithfulness to you. He's putting himself at your mercy, asking forgiveness, and expressing a willingness to work things out even after having violated your trust.


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## tobio

Revised


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## Conrad

tobio said:


> Revised


There is a delete key.


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## tobio

Yup, got it, thanks

I think this thread is a good tool to outlet some feelings, and for OH to continue to read if he wishes. However, the stuff I posted that I deleted... Well, it IS true, but somewhat transient. I don't feel upset and betrayed ALL of the time. I don't want to appear like I am teetering on an invisible "edge" every day working hard to step back but feeling like it's fruitless. I do feel like that a lot at the mo, but I didn't last week and I probably won't in a couple of days.

It's the forgiveness I'm thinking hard about. I thought I HAD, but I haven't. Cue occasional-but-noticeable outbursts of some proper passive aggressive snapping. And any time he criticises, says I'm wrong, what I actually HEAR is, "see what I mean- you're not good enough for me." That is hard, very hard. I realise I am endowing his words with that meaning, but it's not an easy thought process to break free from.

I don't know how to be ABLE to forgive him. How do I start? How do I do that without feeling like I'm actually saying, "you hurt me, trampled on my feelings and put me aside for a temporary ego boost, you caused so much trouble, but here you go- it's fine, I'm your doormat, come back it's ok?"


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## Conrad

Here's a place to start if you're ready.

Think of things you've done that he does not understand - and how he has dealt with them.




tobio said:


> Yup, got it, thanks
> 
> I think this thread is a good tool to outlet some feelings, and for OH to continue to read if he wishes. However, the stuff I posted that I deleted... Well, it IS true, but somewhat transient. I don't feel upset and betrayed ALL of the time. I don't want to appear like I am teetering on an invisible "edge" every day working hard to step back but feeling like it's fruitless. I do feel like that a lot at the mo, but I didn't last week and I probably won't in a couple of days.
> 
> It's the forgiveness I'm thinking hard about. I thought I HAD, but I haven't. Cue occasional-but-noticeable outbursts of some proper passive aggressive snapping. And any time he criticises, says I'm wrong, what I actually HEAR is, "see what I mean- you're not good enough for me." That is hard, very hard. I realise I am endowing his words with that meaning, but it's not an easy thought process to break free from.
> 
> I don't know how to be ABLE to forgive him. How do I start? How do I do that without feeling like I'm actually saying, "you hurt me, trampled on my feelings and put me aside for a temporary ego boost, you caused so much trouble, but here you go- it's fine, I'm your doormat, come back it's ok?"


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## tobio

I think we're gonna have trouble here- he is very, VERY laid back and responds VERY differently.

However, let's have a think.

Lighthearted things... He either looks puzzled or laughs, says he can't work me out, tells me I'm quirky/individual/different, and shrugs his shoulders and whatever it is just "is."

Deeper things... He shows surprise, expresses it verbally, talks about it a little. He might come back to it later or another day, mentioning it, asking again. But never much, always very even, understated almost. He has told me recently about a lot of things he has laboured over in his head about things I have done in the past, that I NEVER KNEW he thought about. I feel sad he never firmly addressed them if he thought about them so much.


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## Conrad

Tobio,

I know you have never done "this sort of thing" to him and it's very painful. Yet, for a man, there are things women do that create intense pain also. Sometimes, they are things of which they are unaware.

Being able to detach and see some of the injuries you've caused him softens the focus and facilitates forgiveness.

It may have been you choosing the kids over him at an important moment. He may have taken that as emasculation.

I hope this is clear.

The short version is, "Seeing our own sins clearly helps make our hearts contrite and forgiving"


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## 2nd_t!me iz_best

CrystalPalace said:


> His openness and honesty about this should be really encouraging to you. He is displaying an extraordinary amount of courage and faithfulness to you. He's putting himself at your mercy, asking forgiveness, and expressing a willingness to work things out even after having violated your trust.


tobios husband under-cover?


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## tobio

Conrad said:


> Tobio,
> 
> I know you have never done "this sort of thing" to him and it's very painful. Yet, for a man, there are things women do that create intense pain also. Sometimes, they are things of which they are unaware.
> 
> Being able to detach and see some of the injuries you've caused him softens the focus and facilitates forgiveness.
> 
> It may have been you choosing the kids over him at an important moment. He may have taken that as emasculation.
> 
> I hope this is clear.
> 
> The short version is, "Seeing our own sins clearly helps make our hearts contrite and forgiving"


I get you. But- and tell me if I'm reading this wrong- that sounds almost like me identifying things I've done that justify what he did.

It's funny you know, he always said I never needed to change anything about me as he was happy with how I was. In retrospect it's not true but I think he did believe it on some level.

So is it knowing that I can and have caused pain to him in some way makes it easier to understand how he could have done it maybe?


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## Conrad

>>So is it knowing that I can and have caused pain to him in some way makes it easier to understand how he could have done it maybe?<<

That's exactly it.

And, it would probably help if it was something selfish - because that's what this was.

I've done the very thing he did. Not to this (current) spouse. And, I can tell you the "fog" people speak about is present. My wife calls it the "getting to know you phase" of a friendship. And, it's easy for it to touch up against and cross a boundary if you're not careful. And, it is selfish because it's thoughtless.

I'm sure he has forgiven you for whatever it may have been.

It doesn't justify anything, but it does help you see potential for mistakes that won't be repeated if we're appropriately armed with information.


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## tobio

Ok. My immediate thought was of like-for-like, but I have been in situations since the start of our relationship where I could have, very easily, done what he did, or taken it even further, and never told him. But I didn't. I even had an "offer" the night we broke up once, for only a night, but I had the foresight to see that if I had done anything that night, and we got back together, it would have been baaaad, so I didn't do anything.

I don't know, but does the way I was behaving before count? I mean, I feel that I was too pressing, not in what I wanted, which I feel was legitimate, but in how I went about it? I know I made him feel unappreciated, and that was never my intention becaused I always did and have appreciated him, but I can see how it could have come across as "what do do is never enough."


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## Conrad

tobio said:


> Ok. My immediate thought was of like-for-like, but I have been in situations since the start of our relationship where I could have, very easily, done what he did, or taken it even further, and never told him. But I didn't. I even had an "offer" the night we broke up once, for only a night, but I had the foresight to see that if I had done anything that night, and we got back together, it would have been baaaad, so I didn't do anything.
> 
> I don't know, but does the way I was behaving before count? I mean, I feel that I was too pressing, not in what I wanted, which I feel was legitimate, but in how I went about it? I know I made him feel unappreciated, and that was never my intention becaused I always did and have appreciated him, but I can see how it could have come across as "what do do is never enough."


And she showed him the appreciation he was missing.

He was weakened and also a bit prideful.

Bad combination, but if you can see how it could happen AND keep your eye on maximizing the chances that it doesn't happen again (by adjusting your behavior), forgiveness becomes the next logical step in moving forward.

In the end, people are going to make their own mistakes - and we hope they take responsibility. I think he's a bit wary of why the subject keeps coming up, but it will likely dawn on him that you are working on yourself - and your understanding of what was missing in the relationship that nudged him towards vulnerability.

I've brought up the kid issue before. It may be worth a chat about his role with them - and how you view his relationship with them. If he's feeling that he's shunted aside for them - or some lack of backup in authority - you may get to the root of underappreciation.

Remember, I'm just giving you leads.


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## tobio

Yeah, the appreciation thing is something I had thought about. I understand it but it seems soooo, I don't know, frustrating. On my part, I feel I started off respectfully, requesting more affection.I guess it frustrates me that if he'd only respected that when I initially asked, things wouldn't have gone down the resentful path and ended up here. Maybe I'm being simplistic because from what he's said, I know that's not all there is to it- at that point, he was already resentful through issues with the children and the affection was baically a tool of control for him. It's almightily hurtful to know that this is what contributed to what he did.

As an aside, I logged into my FB earlier to find a private message from that girl. It was dated from the day I initially messaged her but has only appeared today; it appears that when I messaged her, she locked down her FB and blocked me so her message didn't appear then, and so now for whatever reason (I wonder) she has unblocked me, because I can now see her on FB and the message.

I just asked her what happened between them. Her message simply says: "Important: honestly, absolutely nothing." I am curious as to why she would go a couple of weeks then go to the effort of unblocking me. To the best of my knowledge there has been no contact between them apart from what I already know but I feel quite wary, like she might be seeing if she can check up on him via my profile.


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## jessi

Brennan said:


> There is more going on. If he is nervous at you looking at his messages and also refuses to tell you who she is, he is hiding quite alot.
> I too would not be ready to toss him under the bus just yet but like you said, your gut is telling you something is off. Most womens gut instincts are right.
> If you want to know what is really going on, you could purchase a voice activated recorder which costs about $50 and you would hide it in his car. That would allow you to hear any conversations he has, and particularly if he is having any with her. Emails, texts, fb is pretty easy to delete and he has already proven that he is in fact deleting these things. On top of that, after the kiss happened HE requested to friend her on fb. Something is off.


I think you need to snoop for a while and stay quiet about it, I would install a keylogger on his comp, you will be able to see all his passwords and you will be able to see all conversations he has with anyone else, also try a voice activated recorder in his car, listen to who he is speaking to, 
If you do find something is amiss, the next step to breaking up an affair is to expose it, affair thrive in secrecy, the best way to bust it up is to get some good old fashioned reality into the situation, if everyone important to him knows what he is up to won't be much fun for him anymore, expose the OW's family as well, get some people watching from both ends, your husband will be mad but so what your marriage can survive him being mad not him having an affair.
He will have to chose this woman or you, I would also tell your children.........
I remember when my husband first started his affair, he would tell me stories about work and guess what her name always came up, he was texting her and facebooking her as well, don't be fooled like I was..........
stay quiet for now, get your proof, then confront him and expose the affair..........
just keep telling him you are doing what you have to save your marriage........


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## tobio

Thanks jessi but I don't feel there is anything continuing between them. I am as certain as I can be that there has been no further contact. 

OH is pulling away. He is struggling with his family issues. I know he feels all mixed up inside. He doesn't want to leave but I think he sees in front of him years of struggling and is not sure how he is going to cope with it. I think he compares our situation with his two close friends, both of whom are married, not had kids yet, so have relative freedom and a much more stress-free life. I said it's not comparing like-for-like, our lives are inherently more complicated. One friend said the other day they were happy in their relationship 80% of the time and 20% not. OH said we were the other way around.

The thing with OH, is that still he sees the relationship as clouded by arguments and THEY are what make things not good. He doesn't seem to totally grasp that the arguments are caused by issues and working on the issues will mean there is no need for these arguments. Sounds so basic *shrugs* I pointed out that as one of my issues had been my need for affection, the fact that he was being more affectionate meant we wouldn't be arguing about that which would mean huge changes just from that.

I have been trying to plan a holiday for just me and him. For a few years he has had the same holiday with close friends, and I felt after what has happened recently, prioritising a holiday for us would be very valuable. He said today he might leave it for this year because he's worried the baby is too young to leave (he'll be just turned one.) OH has always since I've known him been on this holiday every year- he even went when I was pregnant with our now toddler without me, and we went last year a couple of weeks before the baby was due.

I understand because I was concerned but felt I could bite the bullet and leave baby because I felt it would be a positive experience for us. However, my mind is working overtime- I HEAR what he is saying about how young baby is, but my mind is ticking because it is so unusual for him to not want to go. I am wondering if there is another reason, ie he doesn't want to commit to a holiday as he doesn't know what will be going on with US in a few months...


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## tobio

Eek... Just having logged onto the computer, I noticed in the history, OH has been looking at his privacy settings on FB. We were talking the other day about how I had blocked "that" girl on his account, he was asking about the difference between deleting someone and blocking them, what happened etc. It doesn't appear he's done anything but of course my mind is racing over why he'd be looking into it.

The other thing is I noticed he was looking on a house moving website. Now, we both aren't 100% happy with the house we are living in but again, my mind is racing over why he would be looking at these things and not mentioning them.

Going to give him a call and ask.


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## Catherine602

tobio said:


> Eek... Just having logged onto the computer, I noticed in the history, OH has been looking at his privacy settings on FB. We were talking the other day about how I had blocked "that" girl on his account, he was asking about the difference between deleting someone and blocking them, what happened etc. It doesn't appear he's done anything but of course my mind is racing over why he'd be looking into it.
> 
> The other thing is I noticed he was looking on a house moving website. Now, we both aren't 100% happy with the house we are living in but again, my mind is racing over why he would be looking at these things and not mentioning them.
> 
> Going to give him a call and ask.


Tabio I think the fact that he is not communicating freely with you is telling. I hate to say it but I think he may be checking out of the relationship. I think you should be prepared. 

There is nothing you can do to hold a person to you. You can't talk them into staying reason with them the more you try the more they retreat. From what you say it sounds like he is pulling away. Don't look at what he says but his behavior and what he does not say. 

I think your intuition is telling you something is wrong and it is hard. He does not appear to be giving 100% to the relationship and he may be waiting for a good reason to leave. He may be open to meeting someone or even looking for someone. Especially if he feels he is bound and his friends are free. 

It is hard but, I think the best thing to do is to completely let go. Don't check up on him, don't ask anything about how he feels, don't expect anything from him, appreciate what he does but no more than that. 

Make sure that you have all of your financial eggs in a basket. You can consult with a solicitor about what your legal rights are for child support and living expenses. Start planing your next move as it may be with out him. 

Pulling away wont doom the relationship if there is anything left to save but the constant surveillance is mentally exhausting to you and will not do any good. 

How about backing way way off, and take care of your self.


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## luckyman

OOE said:


> An affair isn't a bad choice made when a married person decides to sleep with someone that they aren't married to.
> 
> It's a bad choice made when they decide to do something inappropriate (flirting, texting, chatting online, phone calls, lunch, drinks, whatever) with someone that's not their spouse. This leads to a string of self-rewarding behavior that can eventually lead to a PA.
> 
> He might not have initiated the flirting, however he certainly participated on an inappropriate level for a married man, and you should draw a clear line in the sand. It's likely that this is now an EA, and you have your work cut out for you.


Well said.


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## Affaircare

Tobio~

I think I'm going to reply to your posts here and your posts in Coping with Infidelity on this thread (for continuity), but I wanted you to know that a) I'm working on it and b) the ways that your husband feels are actually pretty normal and although you may not grasp what he's saying, I can see that he really is trying to communicate with you both what is causing the problem for him and what it was about the OW that caught his attention. Sadly I think part of what's happening is that he is so focused on "what's hurting him" that he's not thinking about the hurt he's caused you...and when I say "he's not thinking..." what I mean is that he is well aware of it but that his Shame-0-Meter goes through the roof so he doesn't LET himself think much about it. At the same time, you are so hurt and trying to deal with it and heal that you do not hear HIM and what he is trying to communicate with you.


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## tobio

What it was about the OW that caught his attention- that is like something that simultaneously I want to read right now but also churns my guts up because that's like saying what's not good about me and my self-esteem can't really go much lower.


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## Affaircare

Hi Tobio~

Thank you for your patience as I try to write a reply. In this instance there is a lot to say and I wanted to write something worthy of what's going on for both of you, rather than a short post or a quick reply. Also, I'll be responding here to things that you wrote here and things you wrote in your other thread in Coping with Infidelity. 

In this thread you wrote: 



> OH is pulling away. He is struggling with his family issues. I know he feels all mixed up inside. He doesn't want to leave but I think he sees in front of him years of struggling and is not sure how he is going to cope with it. I think he compares our situation with his two close friends, both of whom are married, not had kids yet, so have relative freedom and a much more stress-free life. I said it's not comparing like-for-like, our lives are inherently more complicated. One friend said the other day they were happy in their relationship 80% of the time and 20% not. OH said we were the other way around.


One of the things that often causes a disloyal to "stray" is that feeling that happens when you get to a certain age or point and you compare yourself to your friends and think: "Is this all there is?" People often live their lives with a bunch of 'shoulds' like "I SHOULD be richer by now" or "I SHOULD own my own home" or "I SHOULD be moving on up" or "I SHOULD drive a new truck like they do" or they'll look at their friends and think "I SHOULD be able to come and go as I please" or "I should have all the sex I want like they do." In another way they might think their life 'should' be going a certain way and it's just NOT... so rather than realize that the expectations are unrealistic, it's easier to blame someone than it is to adjust their view of reality. 

I'll give you a concrete example: "I SHOULD drive a new truck like they do." So your hubby looks and MarriedFriends 1&2 who went to high school with him, and they drive a pretty new 2010 sporty something with all the perks, and he thinks "Hey, they're my same age. How come *I* don't drive a new car like they do?" Well in reality MF1&2 both went to college and have college debt from student loans of $25,000 each, and they both work full-time at $30k annually (so income of $60k annually). That cool car they drive they are leasing for payments of $700 a month, and credit card debt is so high they can only afford the interest payment (none to the principle). So at the end of their lease they'll turn the car in, be charged some extra fees, own nothing and still have debts of $50k plus credit card debt... They are BARELY MAKING IT and own nothing!! HE on the other hand is working full-time for $30k annually while you stay at home. You have kids. BUT you have no college debt, only one credit card that you pay off every month, and you own the car that is a 2000 mini-van! In reality he thinks his friends are "so much richer than he is" but his vision of reality is based on their "image" which is completely false...but rather than adjust his view of reality or adjust his expectations, it's easier to blame you for not being "as rich as they are" and thinking that maybe if he didn't have "the wife and kids" that he'd be rich too! 

It is very much the same with other stuff. "MF1&2 are happy 80% of the time, and I'm not" or "She still feels passion for him, and you don't feel that way for me" etc. It's all an unrealistic expectation. Even Rhett and Scarlett didn't live 100% happy and passionate every moment, and they were passionate folks!! But what the disloyal person usually fails to take into consideration is that other people do not choose our emotions for us. WE choose our own feelings!

Now I know part of you may say, "Oh no way! No way I would have an option and pick to feel like this..." and I do hear what you're saying. Those who are around us do have an effect on us and what we are more likely to pick, but ultimately the choice is ours how we will decide to feel. For example, some people are thrown in jail and mope and complain and blame others--others are thrown in jail (maybe for a cause they really believe in like black people in the 1960's) and they rejoice and are happy and consider it a blessing and opportunity to stand for what they believe in. Similar here. If my own Dear Hubby decides to treat me with disrespect and rage, I can choose how to respond. I can choose to refuse to engage, and just walk away assertively. I can choose to be all hurt and be a victim, and cry. I can choose to treat him with disrespect and rage right back, and behave aggressively. I can choose to be a doormat. I can choose to make a statement and give him a choice to back off and control himself. See what I mean? I decide how I feel. So if your hubby is choosing to not be happy 80% of the time, that really is not YOU "making" him feel bad...it's HIM choosing to feel that. And yet it is easier to say that you "make" him feel unhappy than it is to look at himself and say, "What am I doing to contribute to this? Why am I choosing this feeling? What can I change so I am happy? What do I need to share with her? What makes me happy?" See what I mean??

You also wrote: 



> The thing with OH, is that still he sees the relationship as clouded by arguments and THEY are what make things not good. He doesn't seem to totally grasp that the arguments are caused by issues and working on the issues will mean there is no need for these arguments. Sounds so basic *shrugs* I pointed out that as one of my issues had been my need for affection, the fact that he was being more affectionate meant we wouldn't be arguing about that which would mean huge changes just from that.


Okay this is actually REALLY GOOD and he is right on the money on something that I think you've missed. He is telling you RIGHT OUT LOUD what it is that is putting out the fire for him. Remember the fire analogy? Love is like a campfire--you can do actions to build the flame or you can do actions to quench the blaze. One action that quenches the blaze for him is arguing. This is super good to know!

Now different folks mean different things when they say "arguing." Some mean: You can never, ever disagree with me (which is unrealistic and controlling). Some mean: You get so mean when we disagree (which is the way it feels for them). Some mean: I can't talk and tell you my side without you jumping in and overriding me and saying how your side is so much worse. Further, see how he says "Well you said your need was affection and I thought if I was more affectionate you would argue less"?? See that?? That is his way of saying "I thought I was doing what you wanted so that I would get what I wanted, and it didn't work so what happened?" SOOOOO...part of your job is going ot be finding out from him what he means by "arguments." He may very well feel like you challenge him all the time or don't back up his decisions--or maybe his side of things have no value and aren't even considered. So ask him to share with you what he means by "arguments" and no matter what he says, do not disagree or say "That's not true!" because that automatically means "your reality is discounted." No matter what he says, do your best to just paraphrase and put it into your own words to be sure you have a grasp of what he means. 
My GUESS is that he hates to have it pointed out to him what he did "wrong" and especially if he is a Words of Affirmation guy...the opposite (Words of Criticism) can be particularly hurtful and damaging to him. Thus what you consider "Dear you folded that sheet wrong, would you mind refolding it?" might sound like "GOOD GOD you can't even fold a sheet! How useless are you!?" in his head. Okay? Make sense? The long-term goal is for both of you--HIM and YOU--to know each other well enough to be able to present your side or an issue in ways that do not harm the other person. To his credit, it would seem he has made a medium-good attempt to tell you that "arguments hurt me"...and since you love him and care about this dear man who works so hard for you and your children, he hopes that some part of you thinks, "Well I don't want to hurt him." So find out what it is that is hurting him and maybe what ways would NOT hurt him. Make sense?


* * * * * * * * * *
On your other thread, you wrote: 



> My problems are surrounding what happened. I am obviously distrustful of him; I don't THINK he is in contact with her, but feel the need to check. He is finding this very hard; although he is transparent, he says he can't put up with much more of it, he wouldn't go behind my back, he's (I keep hearing this line) "NOT LIKE THAT." I think because she made the move, and he didn't "pursue" her, or carry things on, he doesn't feel like he's been unfaithful. He knows he's crossed the line, been inappropriate, but I don't feel he 100% grasps that in my mind he HAS been unfaithful and done things behind my back. His idea of unfaithful is a full-blown affair. He says if things had happened the other way around, he wouldn't feel like I'd cheated *shrugs* ...How can I move forward with him and with this?


This sounds to be about 100% about his dignity. I'm going to make a leap here. He is a Words of Affirmation guy and enjoyed the OW flirting/stroking his ego a bit...I will bet you MONEY that he feels pretty ashamed that he let it get that far, and yet part of him does not want YOU to look at him like 'that shameful dirty cheater!'...yet because you check up on him and keep bringing it up, he feels like his dignity is under attack. 

Envision this. You work at a business that handles cash and every day for years to embezzle about $100. After a couple years of this, you're caught and have to go to jail and pay back the $52k, and your family has legal fees, etc. But our hubby doesn't leave you...he bears it and you'all move to a new town with hopes of a fresh start. You did it. You're guilty. You confess and do the right thing to give back the money, etc. Would you want your hubby to look at you with 'unethical, dirty thief' in his eyes every time he looked at you? Would you want him to keep bringing it up and asking details? Or would some part of you hope that he will forgive you and give you the dignity of looking at you for WHO YOU ARE: a good person who made a pretty bad mistake ?? 

Your hubby does not want to think that you think of him as an unethical, morally-bankrupt adulterer, even though some parts of him know that what he did was not right. He's fully aware that he crossed lines over and over and some part of him is ashamed. And every time you ask him about things his Shame-O-Meter goes through the roof. BUT he deserves it and that's the truly sucky thing!! So what he would like is for you to give him a little dignity by treating his rather enormous error with some grace. He would like you to look at him and see a guy who IS NOT LIKE THAT but who slipped. He would like you to sort of defend him in your own head and say "He maybe enjoyed the attention, but his motives were not to pursue her or be a bad guy." This gives him the chance to save some face and not look at himself like dirt. 

How can you move forward? Again I strongly suggest you share your email, cell, Facebook with him as much as you expect him to share with you...that you two AGREE that after work he'll look at yours and you'll look at his, not with the idea of "catching the other guy at being bad" but for the intention of sharing yourselves and your days! He can ask you, "Hey you got... Will you tell me about that?" and vice versa. Next, I strongly suggest that you two AGREE to have one question per day. You can ask him ONE thing and he will fully answer that ONE question. It will last a maximum of 30-45 minutes. After that the question is answered, it's over, the discussion is done for the day, and for the rest of the day you two will take JOY in being with each other rather than what's happening now (which is "being with him/her=BAD or HURT). This is not an association that you want to continue, Tobio. 

You also wrote: 



> I will say... He is being transparent. He actually has no problem with being open with everything. The problems come when I ask him about something. I was prompted to post because yesterday, I noticed he had been checking his privacy settings on FB. This was following a conversation a few days ago where we were talking and I was explaining how I'd blocked the girl on his FB- he knew I'd "erased" her but thought I'd just deleted her. He was asking the difference between deleting a friend and blocking them. I could see he'd been into his privacy settings to edit friends but couldn't see what exactly he'd done.
> 
> He responded by saying he was curious, wanted to see what I'd done (he knew this anyway) but hadn't edited any friends (I checked and she wasn't back on his friends list.)


Okay so here's my question. You're upset because he's not performing...something. You say he's being transparent. He is not hiding stuff and yet you want him to do something he's not. What is it? It seems like you are digging for something but not really saying what you're digging for--or like you want him to DO something he's not doing. And he's frustrated because he thinks he's doing everything you asked him to do but you're still mad. 

So what is it? This FB example is actually really good. If I were to explain the difference between deleting and blocking a FB person to a friend, I would not find it at all out of the ordinary for them to go onto their FB settings and look at it themselves. And I also would not leap from that to "they are planning to really, really hurt me." 

Here is my guess--and it's just a good stab in the dark I think. You trusted your hubby's honesty and loyalty, and that trust was destroyed. Now you're afraid it will happen again. Since you are inside your own head, you know deeply and fully how much this betrayal has hurt you and rocked your world. You want him to "make" you feel better, but you don't really share with him how hurt, angry and afraid you honestly are. Since he is in his head, he does not fully understand how deepy and fully this betrayal hurt you (many disloyals do not understand this) and thus he takes what you have said out loud at face value--yet what you have said out loud is not vulnerable honesty. It's that "It would hurt him to know the truth so I'll protect him" :bsflag: and it's making you CRAZY because you're not getting what you need. 



> He is also being very sensitive, he is in tune with me, doesn't shirk from asking what's wrong, what can he do, reassuring. He says he feels an inordinate amount of guilt and so much "shame." He says he feels so bad because he can see how much this has hurt me.
> 
> Yet he says if it happened the exact same way but the other way round, he wouldn't be bothered. Because in his opinion, although he says he loved the attention, that she had the hots for him big time, and said he had feelings for her, because he says he would never have "done anything about it" (he means made a move on her himself as opposed to her jumping on him), he doesn't feel he's done anything wrong. In his head, being unfaithful is about the intention and the physical act IYSWIM. I think he *just* sees that accepting her phone number "in case anything changed" between me and him, then using it later and not telling me, and looking her up on FB to see what she'd been writing in her status about him, is at least, inappropriate.


One of the weirdest, hardest lessons to see sometimes is not that "this or that act was wrong" because maybe doing that wasn't "wrong." The weird, hard part is learning what I am personally responsible for in my own marriage--and that is protecting my marriage (and thus my spouse) FROM MYSELF!! I have no doubt that there are female people out there who can work outside the home full-time with male co-workers and be friends with them and never have any hint of an internal temptation. Thus I can't really say that "Having friends of the opposite sex is wrong" because for some it may not be an issue. BUT IT IS FOR ME!!!! Thus his thing is not so much that he didn't "make the move" or "do anything about it" but recognizing that there was temptation there. Part of him liked the attention and knowing a hot woman had the hots for him...and that RIGHT THERE is a very small line, that he crossed. (And nothing personal but who WOULDN'T like someone hot having a crush on them? I know I would!) Then there was a temptation to do some "joking office flirting" back, and he crossed a small line there. Then there was accepting her phone number and he justified that "in case something happened"...another small little line he crossed. Finally there's looking her up on FB and befriending her "because"....yet ANOTHER small line crossed. 

So see the issue isn't so much "is it only an affair if they f*ck?" but rather two things: 1) Am I giving ONLY MY SPOUSE 100% of my affection and loyalty? and 2) Am I protecting my marriage FROM MYSELF? I know me. My weaknesses are similar to your husband's in a way. I don't want to be old, sexless and dusty. I don't want to be undesired. I want to be told I'm amazing, good job, and wow I'm impressed. I am too easily tempted by someone sending my poetry and smooshy stuff. I can be bowled over when someone "pursues" me. AND SO I PROTECT MY MARRIAGE FROM MY OWN WEAKNESSES!!! Make sense? This is what your hubby needs to figure out/understand. In real life he didn't "go all the way" but he did not protect his marriage from his weaknesses, and he didn't give his affection and loyalty to the one to whom it is due--YOU. 



> He "just wants to forget about it." That basically means he wants to move on, and me forget all about being hurt by his actions and never mention it again. He thinks I should be over it now- it was three weeks ago. Another poster said on here that trust is something you don't always think about until it's gone- well, I always used to be so happy that I could trust him 100%, yet he seems to have no grasp of how that broken trust effects me- he keeps rolling out the line, "but I'm not LIKE THAT"- ie he wouldn't go behind my back and have an affair.
> 
> He says he won't take much more of this... I know the next time I have something to ask him about it he's going to blow up and I don't know how I should handle that?


I have two thoughts here. #1--it just is NOT going to rebuild a healthy, trusting, loving marriage if he persists in "blowing up" "avoiding" and "threatening." Thus, if it were me, when he makes a threat like, "I won't take much more of this" I would call him out on it right then by saying something like, "You are now and always have been completely free to go any time, but I can say right now that if you are hoping to get me to stop asking about the affair by making threats, that is not going to work. If you're going to leave, pack and go now. I won't be manipulated by threats. So if you're going to do it, do it. If not, then stop it." 

#2--At the same time I would like to challenge you with something. Look at your husband right now. NO, I mean it. He is with YOU. He is at HOME with his CHILDREN and make no mistake, Tobio--there are hundreds of people here on this forum who learned that if their spouse wants to leave, they will. He is there with you for a reason: namely that he loves you and wants to work this out so that you feel loved and HE feels loved. That is where he is TODAY. And he is trying to build things so he can be with you TOMORROW...and the next day...and next month...and next year. Yet rather than looking at him today and seeing that he is right there by you today, you are focused on where he *was* and what he or she *did*. You are missing the "Now" and the "future" because you are clinging to something that is past and that neither you nor he can change. Back in the past he did indeed make a mistake...and it was huge. He may wish he could give his left nut to change the past, but he just CAN'T!! And because of that, you are missing out on what is happening today...the love you could be receiving today and the love you could be giving today. 

So rather than getting him to dwell on the affair and go over and over and over it every detail with you, I'm going to encourage YOU to change YOUR perspective. Right now, tonight, look at the man sitting there by you, who's really a GOOD MAN at heart, who wants his wife to look at him like he's valuable, and be HERE...NOW. Love him now and let him love you NOW. That doesn't mean avoiding the past or pretending you don't hurt, but it does mean learning how to make the decision to not cling to it. And one way you can do that is to be HERE...TODAY...and choose to treat him with love and respect TODAY.


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