# Where do I go from here?



## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

Hello All

My first post. Have been a lurker for a while - what an amazing board this is.

Straight to the point then.

I have been married for 16 years to a woman I never should have married.

The truth is - I allowed myself to become enmeshed in someone's life and committed the ultimate act of emotional self destruction by getting into a reltionship with her and then marrying. I kept telling myself at the time I would bring it to a conclusion - but at each new phases I found myself lacking in courage. I have had counselling as a single person and my therapist warned me then - you have a problem with endings! Ha - dont I know it! I alway had managed to extricate myself from unhappy relationships by hook or by crook, good fortune or whatever - they all went on too long - and I was always going to be a hazard to myself under the worst circumstances. And I happened - by freak chance I found myself with a woman who was playing for keeps - and I was not in her league as a player - she whipped my ass.

I can't believe I let all this happen. If someone had painted this picture for me 20 years ago - I would have been horrified. Yet this is reality.

What has happened to me these last 16 years is just beyond belief. I feel like time has frozen - the world has been turning, and I've been stuck in the same place. The year is 2000 - but no - it really is 2017 - what has been happening all this time. 

What a monumental mess I am in.

I'm in my early 50s by the way. So this all started when I was 37 - thinking at that time I was now ripe for the right woman.

Ha ha ha! What a laugh that is! Pissing myself laughing here! Really.

But I cant believe there are not people out there who have been through similar and come out of the long dark tunnel.

Please bear with me - I dont often have more than 10 minutes to myself without interruption. I will be back with more of this dreadful tale. In the meantime any comments would be much appreciated.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

So, you feel that you just went with the flow for all these years in a situation that you really didn't want?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

What about this relationship is a not working for you? Could you give some details?


Do you have any children with her?

Do both of you work?

If you are this unhappy, why don't you divorce?


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## shrah25 (Mar 22, 2017)

MrRight said:


> Hello All
> 
> My first post. Have been a lurker for a while - what an amazing board this is.
> 
> ...


Hi @MrRight

Thanks for your message and I admire your humour amidst the pain!

It would be nice to get some further details about your relationship so I can really understand the patterns in greater detail - however, I appreciate your shortage of time. 

One line said it all though - "she whipped my ass"...As long as this is happening, then you've completely lost that sense of who you are. The very core of you has been taken away - not only by her, but also by you because you've fundamentally allowed it to happen. 

However, the past doesn't need to be become your future and it sounds like it's time to make some changes. 

Where is your relationship at right now? Are you willing to move on? Do you have kids? etc etc 

If you could provide me with some more info, that would be much appreciated.

Thanks


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## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

Thank you for the replies.

We have a son who is 1 year away from university entry.

I am willing to move on - though now is not the right time. I am thinking of in maybe 2 years or so when I have run out of reasons. There are certainly at the moment practical reasons - and a lot of debt mainly run up because I have not had a final say in how money is spent - even though I am 100% earner for the family. I have a string of loans/overdrafts that will take years to clear. 

Where we are now is up down up down. There is no stability in our relationship.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

MrRight said:


> Thank you for the replies.
> 
> We have a son who is 1 year away from university entry.
> 
> ...


Evidently this has been your thought now for SIXTEEN YEARS. And you are already putting it off like you always do! What exactly has been so bad in your marriage?? Well..besides the obvious fact that you allow other people to run your life... no one to blame but you for that part. Is your wife a cheater? Is she an abuser? Is there someone else you are in love with?


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## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

3Xnocharm said:


> Evidently this has been your thought now for SIXTEEN YEARS. And you are already putting it off like you always do! What exactly has been so bad in your marriage?? Well..besides the obvious fact that you allow other people to run your life... no one to blame but you for that part. Is your wife a cheater? Is she an abuser? Is there someone else you are in love with?


No-one to blame but me. Yes I think after 16 years I understand that part.

No she is not a cheater. 

She is however - exceptionally insecure - unstable emotionally - prone to a sudden downward shift in mood - occasionally violent - intolerant.

I was not quite aware of all this when I married her of course - though there were some warning signs early on that I should have heeded. After the birth of our child - all those traits - bearable human faults - increased greatly. 

Post natal syndrome? I dont know. She has taken having a child seriously to the extreme - and everything must be just so. If it's not - watch out. Everything - down to the last vitamin - must be provided - if there is a sneeze - the house must be inspected for draughts - a doctor must visit - or you must call the ambulance - did you hear about the child whose cough was actually meninghitus and how the doctors failed to diagnose - he died.

I think you get the picture.

I confided in the doctor about all this a long time ago - MrRight, he said, there is no medication available for personality disorders. Thank you.

The time is not right - has not been right - I could not leave him with her - neither did I think it was right to take him away. He has done well at school, is popular - seems to get on socially - I think he's doing ok - despite far from ideal circumstances at home. 

No, by the way - there is no one I am in love with! I cant even imagine what that means anymore.

We are together virtually all the time - something that suits her more than it does me. 

OK - thank you for your interest - must go now and will be back later with more.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MrRight said:


> I confided in the doctor about all this a long time ago - MrRight, he said, there is no medication available for personality disorders.


MrRight, your doctor may be correct about your W having a personality disorder (PD). The behaviors you describe -- i.e., temper tantrums, verbal abuse, "occasionally violent," controlling behavior, black-white thinking, hating to be alone, "exceptionally insecure," always being "The Victim," and rapid flips between loving you and devaluing you -- are classic warning signs for BPD (Borderline PD). 



> She is however... unstable emotionally - prone to a sudden downward shift in mood.


Of the ten personality disorders, BPD is the only one having "unstable" as a defining symptom. Indeed, most of the 9 BPD symptoms describe behavior that is unstable or arises from an inability to control emotions. This is why a large share of the psychiatric community has been lobbying for two decades to rename BPD as "Emotion Regulation Disorder."

The most common cause of mood changes, however, is not BPD. Rather, the two most common causes are _hormone change_ and _drug abuse_. Yet, given that your W apparently is neither pregnant nor a drug abuser, it seems unlikely they are a source of her instability. 

I therefore note that the two remaining common causes of strong mood changes are _BPD_ (Borderline Personality Disorder) and _BP_ (Bipolar Disorder). Significantly, the behaviors you describe do not sound like red flags for bipolar. Instead, they sound like the warning signs for BPD. 



> ...it is like bringing up 2 kids.


If she really is a BPDer (i.e., exhibits strong and persistent BPD traits), she likely experienced abuse or abandonment in early childhood -- a trauma that left her emotional development frozen at the level of a four year old. If so, this would explain why she cannot regulate her own emotions and is fully dependent on the primitive ego defenses used by young children: e.g., temper tantrums, denial, projection, black-white thinking, and magical thinking. The result is that, for 16 years, you've had a parent/child relationship with her, not a husband/wife relationship.



> Everything must be just so. If it's not - watch out.


You are describing a symptom of obsessive compulsion. If the person is aware of having it, it is called OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) which is an anxiety disorder, not a PD. Yet, if the person lacks self awareness and thus is unaware of her OCD -- as you seem to be describing -- the condition generally is called OCPD (Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder).

If your W is a BPDer, she has a 24% chance of also suffering from full-blown OCPD. As to OCD, a female BPDer has an 81% chance of having OCD or another anxiety disorder during her lifetime. On top of that, she has an 80% chance of having a mood disorder (e.g., PTSD, bipolar, or depression) during her lifetime. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.



> She is... occasionally violent


 Intense, inappropriate anger is one of the nine defining traits for BPD. If your W is a BPDer, she carries enormous anger inside from early childhood. You therefore don't have to do a thing to CREATE the anger. Rather, you only have to do or say some minor thing that triggers a release of the anger that is already there. This is why a BPDer can burst into a rage in only ten seconds. Moreover, as I noted above, the key defining characteristic of BPD is the inability to regulate one's own emotions.

For these reasons, physical violence has been found to be strongly associated with BPD. One of the first studies showing that link is a 1993 hospital study of spousal batterers. It found that nearly all of them have a personality disorder and half of them have BPD. See Roger Melton's summary of that study at *50% of Batterers are BPDers*. Similarly, a *2008 study* and a *2012 study* find a strong association between violence and BPD. 



> I have to tip toe around.


The abused partners of BPDers often find themselves walking on eggshells to avoid triggering the BPDer's anger. This is why the #1 best-selling BPD is titled, _Stop Walking on Eggshells_.



> I was not quite aware of all this when I married her of course - though there were some warning signs early on that I should have heeded.


If she is a BPDer, her infatuation held her two fears (abandonment and engulfment) at bay throughout the courtship period. You therefore likely did not see any strong warning signs occurring until that infatuation started evaporating -- typically about 4 to 6 months into the R/S (or a year if you did not get together very often).



> After the birth of our child - all those traits - bearable human faults - increased greatly.





> Post natal syndrome? I dont know.


You are not describing warning signs for postpartum depression or postpartum psychosis. Yet, even if she did suffer from one of those conditions, my understanding is that it likely would have been gone with six months, with a chance of lasting 2 or 3 years. I've never heard of those conditions lasting for 16 years.



> Mine also explodes on her family. When her mum visited they had a row and my wife threw a laptop at her - injuring her shin.


If your W regularly explodes at business associates and total strangers (e.g., in road rage), you are describing IED (Intermittent Explosive Disorder). It is an anxiety disorder, not a PD. The vast majority of BPDers -- even those exhibiting full-blown BPD -- generally get along fine with casual friends, business associates, clients, and complete strangers. 

The reason is that none of those people pose a threat to the BPDer's two great fears: abandonment and engulfment. There is no close relationship that can be abandoned and no intimacy to trigger the suffocating feeling of engulfment. It thus is common for well educated BPDers to be caring and generous to strangers all day long -- and then go home at night to abuse the very people who love him. 

This is why many high functioning BPDers excel in very demanding professions -- e.g., becoming successful teachers, social workers, psychologists, surgeons, and actors. And this is why HF BPDers typically have no close long-term friends (unless the friend lives a long distance away). 

My BPDer exW, for example, has a caring and outgoing attitude toward other people. Even complete strangers feel like they have known her for a long time after talking with her for only 30 minutes. My exW has a warm and charming personality that puts people at ease. Moreover, she genuinely enjoys interacting with those people. 

Yet, when one of her casual friends make the mistake of drawing close to her in a LTR, that friend will eventually trigger one of my exW's two fears. At that point -- which typically took 3 to 5 years with each of the three women who became extremely close to her -- my exW would split the woman black and push her away. I saw her terminate all three of those close LTRs in the 15 years we were married.

Similarly, my exW and her two BPDer sisters would periodically push each other away. They would be thick as thieves for 12 to 18 months and then one of them would say some minor thing that would trigger another sister's fears. They would have a blowup fight and then not speak to each other for 4 to 6 months -- then suddenly would return to being thick as thieves. I mention all this to explain why, if your W is a BPDer, she likely will explode on close family members and loved ones -- but not on casual friends and strangers.



> We are together virtually all the time.... she can't leave me alone for 5 minutes.


If she is a BPDer, she likely HATES being alone. The reason is that she never had an opportunity in early childhood to develop a strong sense of who she is. Instead, she is stuck with a fragile, unstable sense of self identity. One result of this is that she has virtually no sense of where SHE leaves off and YOU begin. 

That is, she no firm personal boundaries and thus cannot readily distinguish between your feelings and hers. Instead, she becomes enmeshed with your feelings. Indeed, because she lacks a strong sense of who she is, she is reliant on you to provide a sense of direction and a grounding. Yet, when you do exactly that, she will resent you for "controlling" her. BPDers have a strong feeling they are being controlled and dominated.



> Where do I go from here?


Given that you are not yet willing to divorce her, I suggest I suggest you see a psychologist -- for a visit or two _all by yourself_ -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you and your son are dealing with. As to the BPD symptoms you describe, I caution that learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your W's issues. Although it is easy to spot these symptoms, only a professional can determine whether they are so severe and persistent as to constitute full-blown BPD. Yet, like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack, learning those for BPD may help you avoid a painful situation, e.g., remaining in a toxic marriage or, after leaving, running into the arms of another woman just like her. 

I also caution that BPD is not something -- like chickenpox -- that a person either "has" or "doesn't have." Instead, it is a spectrum disorder, which means every adult on the planet occasionally exhibits all BPD traits to some degree (albeit at a low level if the person is healthy). At issue, then, is not whether your W exhibits BPD traits. Of course she does. We all do. 

Rather, at issue is whether she exhibits those traits at a strong and persistent level (i.e., is on the upper end of the BPD spectrum). Not having met her, I cannot answer that question. I nonetheless believe you can spot any strong BPD warning signs that are present if you take a little time to learn which behaviors are on the list. They are easy to spot -- especially after you've been dating for two years -- because there is nothing subtle about behaviors such as strong verbal abuse, violence, and temper tantrums.

I therefore suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you take a quick look at my list of red flags at _*18 BPD Warning Signs*_ to see if most sound very familiar. If so, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in _*Maybe's Thread*_. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join @*3Xnocharm* and the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, MrRight.


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## Vinnydee (Jan 4, 2016)

When it comes to marriage what you see is what you get. There is no room for a fantasy of changing things and even if they did change, it may not be in a way you like. That is why we have a courtship period to check each other out. Then if things look good, we get engaged and have another year or two to make sure we want to spend the rest of our lives with each other. No kids first or any of that. Once you are positive that she is the person you want, as she is and not as she can become, then you marry her. All too often men marry for the regular sex and fear of having to date again and put up with limited or no sex and rejection from women. Sometimes people are together for so long they feel that the logical next step is marriage.

I will never understand why people marry someone who everyone else can see is not good for them. Obviously that is why you are in therapy. The time for marriage counselling is before you get married if you know you have issues. There is no need to rush into marriage. Live together so that if you want to get out, you do not lose half of your stuff. Good luck, but this is a consequence of bad decision making on your part. We all suffer the consequences of our decisions so make good choices in the future.


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## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

Uptown thanks for that amazing post.

I am shaking - having read through your post.

There is no way I would get the freedom to go and see a psychologist - but I will read through what you have suggested.

This is scary - I sometimes think she will put a knife in my back one day.


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## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

Thanks again.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MrRight said:


> This is scary - I sometimes think she will put a knife in my back one day.


I know the feeling all too well. There were a number of times, while I was taking a shower, that the shower scene in "Psycho" crossed my mind. Although BPDers generally are good people, their perceptions of loved ones can become so severely distorted -- in only a few seconds -- that they can pose a dangerous threat.

In contrast, I never once had that scary feeling in the shower while living with my bipolar-1 adult foster son. He is a man whom I had to take to the hospital ER on ten occasions because his mania had become so severe that he had slipped into psychosis. My experience is that BPDers -- having the emotional development of a young child combined with the body strength and cunning of a full grown adult -- generally are far more dangerous than narcissists, sociopaths, and folks suffering bipolar disorder. But the reason BPDers can be so dangerous is not that they are _bad_ people but, rather, that they are _unstable_ people -- who carry a lot of hurt and anger deep inside.



> There is no way I would get the freedom to go and see a psychologist - but I will read through what you have suggested.


If you are really such a prisoner in your own home, I strongly suggest you call the police and have her forcibly removed -- and obtain a restraining order against her returning. Also, because your son is only 16, call child protective services and ask them to require that your W be evaluated by a professional before she can be around your son.

If you lack any evidence to support your claims, immediately buy a VAR (about $25) and carry it in your shirt pocket to record her rages and tantrums. If you can afford it, obtain a disguised video recorder that can make a visual record. @*EleGirl* can provide you with far more detailed advice (than I can) about how to protect you and your son. So I will focus here on providing several other suggestions below:

*The first step*, as I noted earlier, is to see a psychologist to obtain a candid professional opinion on whether your W is exhibiting strong BPD traits as you believe. This is important because the latest studies on BPD heritability indicate that, when one Parent has full-blown BPD, each child has roughly a 20% to 30% chance of developing it. The most recent study supports 30% but, because all these studies are based on small sample size, their results are only suggestive. As a responsible parent, your first action should be to determine the risk confronting your son. 

Because BPD traits typically start showing strongly in the early teens, you likely would already be seeing warning signs at the age of 16. If you are, don't jump to any conclusions. Due to hormone surges, a large share of teens exhibit very strong BPD behavior for several years. This is why therapists generally refuse to diagnose BPD until a person is at least 18.

*Second*, consult with a divorce attorney who is experienced in dealing with child custody cases against a very vindictive spouse. If your W is a BPDer, the divorce and custody battle likely be get very nasty very quickly. It would be prudent to supplement that advice with tips offered by the book, _Splitting: Protecting Yourself while Divorcing a Borderline or Narcissist_. 

*Third*, start participating (or at least lurking) at BPDfamily.com, which offers eight separate message boards on various BPD issues. The ones that likely will be most helpful are the _"Detaching from a Borderline"_ board and _"Co-Parenting after the Split"_ board.

*Fourth*, while you're at BPDfamily, read the articles: Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD and Leaving a Partner with BPD. At other websites, I recommend these online articles: Fathers Divorcing, and High Risk Parenting, and Pain of Breaking Up, and Divorcing a Narcissist.

*Fifth*, read an explanation of how we excessive caregivers get to be this way during our childhood. The best explanation I've found is Shari Schreiber's article, Do You Love to be Needed? Schreiber argues that, due to childhood dynamics with parents, our desire to be _needed _(for what we can do) FAR exceeds our desire to be _loved_ (for the men we already are). If you've been married to a BPDer for 16 years, you almost certainly are an excessive caregiver like me.

*Sixth*, if you believe your W has strong BPD traits, do not try to persuade her of that. If she is a BPDer, she almost certainly will project the accusation right back onto you, believing YOU to be the BPDer. Instead, simply encourage her to see a good psychologist (not a MC) and let the psych decide what to tell her.

*Finally*, please don't forget those of us on this TAM forum. We want to keep trying to answer your questions and providing emotional support as long as you find our shared experiences helpful. Moreover, by sharing your own experiences, you likely are helping numerous other members and lurkers. Indeed, your thread has already attracted nearly 500 views in a week.


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## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

Thanks again.

Yes she is nice to people outside the family - is well liked. She occasionally loses it with people who have threatened the interests of our son - and has been barred from one public education institution for causing disruption to the admin office staff. We generally fall out with schools when my wife does not agree with the way they do things. She is capable of developing an intense hatred for people who threaten her son's interests. Apart from that she projects a good energy outside of the house.

I will follow up the links.


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## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

1. Black-white thinking, wherein she categorizes everyone as "all good" or "all bad" and will recategorize someone -- in just a few seconds -- from one polar extreme to the other based on a minor infraction; 
2. Frequent use of all-or-nothing expressions like "you always" and "you never;" YES
3. Irrational jealousy and controlling behavior that tries to isolate you away from close friends or family members; YES
4. A strong sense of entitlement that prevents her from appreciating your sacrifices, resulting in a "what have you done for me lately?" attitude and a double standard;
5. Flipping, on a dime, between adoring you and devaluing you -- making you feel like you're always walking on eggshells; YES
6. Frequently creating drama over issues so minor that neither of you can recall what the fight was about two days later; YES
7. Low self esteem; YES
8. Verbal abuse and anger that is easily triggered, in seconds, by a minor thing you say or do (real or imagined), resulting in temper tantrums that typically last several hours; YES
9. Fear of abandonment or being alone -- evident in her expecting you to “be there” for her on demand, making unrealistic demands for the amount of time spent together, or responding with intense anger to even brief separations or slight changes in plans; YES
10. Always being "The Victim," a false self image she validates by blaming you for every misfortune; YES
11. Lack of impulse control, wherein she does reckless things without considering the consequences (e.g., binge eating or spending); YES
12. Complaining that all her previous BFs were abusive and claiming (during your courtship) that you are the only one who has treated her well;
13. Mirroring your personality and preferences so perfectly during the courtship period (e.g., enjoying everything and everyone you like) that you were convinced you had met your "soul mate;"
14. Relying on you to center and ground her, giving her a sense of direction because her goals otherwise keep changing every few months; 
15. Relying on you to sooth her and calm her down, when she is stressed, because she has so little ability to do self soothing; YES
16. Having many casual friends but not any close long-term friends (unless they live a long distance away); YES
17. Taking on the personality of whatever person she is talking to, thereby acting quite differently around different types of people; and
18. Always convinced that her intense feelings accurately reflect reality -- to the point that she often "rewrites history" because she regards her own feelings as self-evident facts, despite her inability to support them with any hard evidence. YES


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## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

Having my wife forcibly removed.

I doubt if the police here (in the UK) would have any legal grounds for that.

If I get evidence of her going hysterical and present it to social services - yes they will get involved - my son will be physically examined, questioned etc - and he may have to go on the child protection register. But that wont mean the police can keep my wife from living in the family home - unless he is covered in bruises which he is not. We would have to start a long process with social services coming to the family home to support us - offer counselling etc. And in the meantime there would be a war with my wife in the family home. So I dont see that as a sensible option. Besides my son is 18 months away from the possibility of a university place. Once he has that in the bag my options will open up. An earthquake in the family now will not serve his best interests. You know how things stand - one thing she had done for him is help him with his education and he has very good prospects - I cant interfere with that process until the time is right - until then I need to manage the situation.

These are not just excuses for delaying what needs to be done. 

But coming back to my wife - and managing. She comes to me for sex now and again. Now that is a tough issue for me. As I tend to be very tired most of the time - and dont feel like having sex with her! Particularly in view of her treatment and behaviour etc. She may have BPD but she is still a woman and expects affection etc - and for me the marriage is more a battle to endure and survive. How do you suggest I deal with that? I try to deflect her attention - distract her - and avoid. Sometimes she just wont stop and I have to give in - rarely - have got it down to a couple of times a month. But it's not easy - if I ignore her too much - no hugs etc - I sense that she is really going to snap. I have hinted to her in the past that if she was more reasonable - our sex and indeed whole life might be better. But then she tells me to go to hell. I'm the one behaving badly etc and she doesnt need it anyway.


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## Betrayedone (Jan 1, 2014)

Get the Hell out of there.....You are in a prison!


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## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

Betrayedone said:


> Get the Hell out of there.....You are in a prison!


Thanks for the advice.

Can you get me a small pick axe?


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## JL39775 (Apr 28, 2017)

Uptown said:


> MrRight said:
> 
> 
> > I confided in the doctor about all this a long time ago - MrRight, he said, there is no medication available for personality disorders.
> ...


MrRight/Uptown,
My wife has all the same issues. I try to be patient but I have a hard time not reacting by yelling back. It doesn't help but I feel I don't deserve being treated like crap when I didn't do anything wrong and I always fight back. Uptown opened my eyes with all the information provided about BPD. I will talk to my wife to see if she can get help. I've been patient for 17 years and I can't take much more. I hope therapy can help abandonment and BPD. If not, I'm not sticking around because I can't handle the stress for the rest of my life. I don't mean to hi jack this post but I wanted to say I'm in the same boat as MrRight but I'm willing to stay married if my wife can get better.


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## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

GoingPostal said:


> MrRight/Uptown,
> My wife has all the same issues. I try to be patient but I have a hard time not reacting by yelling back. It doesn't help but I feel I don't deserve being treated like crap when I didn't do anything wrong and I always fight back. Uptown opened my eyes with all the information provided about BPD. I will talk to my wife to see if she can get help. I've been patient for 17 years and I can't take much more. I hope therapy can help abandonment and BPD. If not, I'm not sticking around because I can't handle the stress for the rest of my life. I don't mean to hi jack this post but I wanted to say I'm in the same boat as MrRight but I'm willing to stay married if my wife can get better.


No need to apologise for hi-jacking

the more the merrier:|

Do you have children? This must be a key question in any failing relationship. 

Have you told her you think she has BPD? Make sure you are wearing a headguard when you tell her and a gum shield. Indispensible household items when living with a BPD "victim"

I stopped yelling back or retaliating in any way - I found it just increased the amount of time wasted on getting her calm again by a factor of 3 or 4 - because first you have the original reason for the explosion - plus then all the **** you said to her to apologise and grovel for - it goes on and on. Now I go silent - tighten my lips and wait for the storm to pass.

What a lovely way to live life eh!


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## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

Phew - another day survived - nearly - just 1 hour to bedtime.

Thanks to all those who have commented - it does help to get f/b and hear that others are in a similar situation. In my 20s I had a gambling problem and got over it by attending gamblers anonymous. That was fantastic support and I have not gambled for 30 years. This forum is cool too - would have been great to meet some of you people, at least those who are in a similar situation to me. But this is the next best thing.

what happened today - not bad - just one physical attack (attempted kick between the legs - missed - ha ha) and some anxiety attacks that led to me having to make ridiculous phonecalls asking stupid questions on her behalf.

oh and of course on top of that another day of my life down the drain.

all in all - a better day than normal


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

GoingPostal said:


> I will talk to my wife to see if she can get help.... I hope therapy can help abandonment and BPD.


Postal, welcome to the TAM forum. As *MrRight* stated, it is unwise to mention "BPD" to your W if you are seeing strong BPD warning signs. Instead, simply suggest that she seek therapy and let the psychologist decide what to tell her. Generally, therapists are loath to tell a BPDer the name of her disorder. This information typically is withheld from high functioning BPDers for several reasons -- one of which is that she almost certainly will immediately terminate therapy when told. Instead, the therapists usually tell BPDers only about the co-occurring clinical disorders such as depression, PTSD, OCD, GAD, panic disorder, or bipolar.

If she is a BPDer, she has so much self loathing that her subconscious works 24/7 protecting her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this by projecting nearly all hurtful feelings and bad thoughts onto you. Because this projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, she will consciously believe that the painful feelings and thoughts are coming from YOU. Hence, if you suggest she may have BPD, she likely will immediately be convinced that YOU are the one having full-blown BPD.

As to the needed therapy, most large cities offer excellent treatment programs (e.g., CBT and DBT) that teach BPDers the emotional skills they never had an opportunity to learn in early childhood: e.g., how to self sooth, how to regulate all emotions, how to avoid black-white thinking by tolerating ambiguities, how to trust, how to intellectually challenge intense feelings instead of accepting them as "facts," how to integrate the good and bad aspects of one's own personality, and how to be "mindful" (i.e., keep focused on the present instead of escaping into daydreams about the past and future).

Sadly, it is rare for high functioning BPDers to be willing to seek out such therapy. The very nature of BPD prevents nearly all BPDers -- I would guess 95% -- from seeing that they lack these skills and sorely need to acquire them. This is why BPD is said to be "egosyntonic," i.e., it is so harmonious with the needs and desires of the ego that the BPDer sees no need to acquire the missing skills. 

Granted, BPDers generally have a vague awareness that "something" is missing inside. They nonetheless lack the self awareness to recognize that these basic emotional skills are missing and that this deficiency is undermining all their close relationships.

As to the remaining 5% of BPDers who are very self aware, that self awareness is not sufficient to guarantee success in a therapy program. What is also essential is having the ego strength to work hard and persist in weekly treatments for several years. I would be greatly surprised if any more than 1% of the high functioning BPDers have both the self awareness and ego strength required to seek therapy and persist long enough to make a real difference.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

You've been living this for years. Probably making excuse that this isn't the right time. 

are you just venting or actually wanting to take action?


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## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

Uptown said:


> Postal, welcome to the TAM forum. As *MrRight* stated, it is unwise to mention "BPD" to your W if you are seeing strong BPD warning signs. Instead, simply suggest that she seek therapy and let the psychologist decide what to tell her. Generally, therapists are loath to tell a BPDer the name of her disorder. This information typically is withheld from high functioning BPDers for several reasons -- one of which is that she almost certainly will immediately terminate therapy when told. Instead, the therapists usually tell BPDers only about the co-occurring clinical disorders such as depression, PTSD, OCD, GAD, panic disorder, or bipolar.
> 
> If she is a BPDer, she has so much self loathing that her subconscious works 24/7 protecting her fragile ego from seeing too much of reality. It accomplishes this by projecting nearly all hurtful feelings and bad thoughts onto you. Because this projection occurs entirely at the subconscious level, she will consciously believe that the painful feelings and thoughts are coming from YOU. Hence, if you suggest she may have BPD, she likely will immediately be convinced that YOU are the one having full-blown BPD.
> 
> ...


That's all quite depressing but I am not surprised. It explains why my wife will rely on me to get her out of gloom or bad mood

she will often say "say something to me" when she is troubled or gloomy - or "you've destroyed my mood" (this last one is a threat) and I have to work hard to think of a way to snap her out of it. If I "**** up" at the start of the day - she will in advance - blame a destroyed day on me - only a nights sleep and offence free morning can cleanse the evil I triggered the previous day.

what about persecution complex? I know that bi polar people suffer from this. but my wife will often extrapolate things not going her way to a conspiracy against her on the part of people she will then develop an intense violent irreversible hatred for. There is often nothing rational about her reasoning - if she doesnt understand a situation she will jump to concluding the worst. is bipolar and BPD in the same person possible? We knew an old lady who had been diagnosed bipolar - and oddly enough my wife always used to say they were very much alike in the way they see the world. She would say this old lady, now deceased, trusted her because only she could understand her points of view, fears etc.


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## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

Marc878 said:


> You've been living this for years. Probably making excuse that this isn't the right time.
> 
> are you just venting or actually wanting to take action?


I was hoping for some contructive comments so that I can understand what I am dealing with. I have had some excellent responses notably from uptown.

Thank you for your supportive comments.


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## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

Vinnydee said:


> When it comes to marriage what you see is what you get. There is no room for a fantasy of changing things and even if they did change, it may not be in a way you like. That is why we have a courtship period to check each other out. Then if things look good, we get engaged and have another year or two to make sure we want to spend the rest of our lives with each other. No kids first or any of that. Once you are positive that she is the person you want, as she is and not as she can become, then you marry her. All too often men marry for the regular sex and fear of having to date again and put up with limited or no sex and rejection from women. Sometimes people are together for so long they feel that the logical next step is marriage.
> 
> I will never understand why people marry someone who everyone else can see is not good for them. Obviously that is why you are in therapy. The time for marriage counselling is before you get married if you know you have issues. There is no need to rush into marriage. Live together so that if you want to get out, you do not lose half of your stuff. Good luck, but this is a consequence of bad decision making on your part. We all suffer the consequences of our decisions so make good choices in the future.


what planet are you on?

this forum is used by people who have problems in marriage - if we had all made good choices we wouldnt be here!

it's not constructive to say - you made a poor choice - should have done this or that before marriage - checked her out etc. We all know that already! I have had 16 years to work that one out. what we need is constructive comments about the present not retrospective advice.


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MrRight said:


> My wife will rely on me to get her out of gloom or bad mood. She will often say "say something to me" when she is troubled or gloomy - or "you've destroyed my mood"....


As I noted earlier, MrRight, a BPDer has such a fragile, unstable sense of self identity that she has virtually no sense of where her feelings leave off and yours begin. Lacking a strong sense of personal boundaries, she becomes enmeshed with your feelings. Like a young child, a BPDer does not realize that she is responsible for her own feelings and that she is the only one who can make herself happy in the long run.



> what about persecution complex? ...my wife will often extrapolate things not going her way to a conspiracy against her on the part of people she will then develop an intense violent irreversible hatred for.


Paranoia is one of the nine defining traits for a pattern of BPD behaviors.



> Is bipolar and BPD in the same person possible?


Yes, 41% of female full-blown BPDers also suffer from bipolar 1 or bipolar 2. The vast majority of BPDers suffer from one or two other personality disorders together with one or two clinical disorders like bipolar, PTSD, OCD, ADHD, anxiety (GAD), or depression. As I noted earlier, a female BPDer has an 81% chance of having OCD or another anxiety disorder during her lifetime and, on top of that, an 80% chance of also having a mood disorder (e.g., PTSD, bipolar, or depression) during her lifetime. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

If it seems strange to you that a person suffering from one mental illness likely suffers from several others as well, keep in mind that the American and European diagnostic manuals do not describe the disorders themselves. The American DSM-5, for example, lists 157 separate mental disorders like BPD and bipolar but fails to describe any of them. Until scientists are able to identify the cause of a mental disorder, they are unable to describe it, much less develop a lab test for it. 

Instead, the DSM-5 describes 157 sets of behavior patterns that, when they are severe and persistent, are believed to be manifestations of some unidentified underlying cause. That is, the DSM-5 (and its European counterpart) only describe sets of _symptoms_, not the _disorders_ themselves. When symptoms are sufficiently severe, it is ASSUMED that there must be an underlying disorder causing it. 

Until the psychiatric community is able to identify the underlying cause of a mental disorder it cannot do a true diagnosis. This is not to say, however, that identifying the symptoms is not helpful. On the contrary, it is extremely valuable in helping us all understand why we behave the way we do at various stages of our lives. And it is extremely valuable to the extent professionals are able to provide medications and therapy that reduce the severity of those symptoms.

On the other hand, symptoms are a very poor basis on which to base a "diagnosis." As the medical community soon learned, the same set of symptoms may be produced by any one of three dozen different illnesses. And a single illness may give rise to six widely different sets of symptoms -- or to no symptoms at all (i.e., can be asymptomatic). 

Hence, although knowing the symptoms can help a medical doctor reduce the number of lab tests that must be performed, it is a poor basis on which to attempt a diagnosis. This is why the medical community largely abandoned the symptoms-based approach to diagnosis in the middle of the last century. By that time, scientific advances permitted them to identify the underlying illness and thus develop lab tests that permit true diagnosis to occur.

I mention all of this to explain why, when a person exhibits two personality disorders together with three clinical disorders, what you're really seeing is five different sets of behavioral symptoms (i.e., patterns of behavior). Nobody on the planet knows how many underlying disorders are causing those five sets of symptoms.


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## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

Thanks UPTOWN.

What a horror story.

How do I protect my wife from opening herself up to dangerous situations - where her warped way of looking at a given situation - leads to potentially hazardous behaviour?

My wife today accused an education professional of some quite preposterous things - I had to stand there with my head down because I was too embarrassed to look this person in the eye. I tried to reason with her beforehand - but then she just said - I need you to back me up, whose side are you on?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MrRight said:


> How do I protect my wife from opening herself up to dangerous situations - where her warped way of looking at a given situation - leads to potentially hazardous behaviour?


You cannot protect her from her own bad decisions without harming her with your enabling behavior. Let me explain. If she were a young child, you could protect her from rash decisions like running into traffic by physically restraining her. 

With a grown woman, however, it is important you allow her to suffer the logical consequences of her bad decisions (except for suicide threats, where the logical consequence is your calling the police). Otherwise, she has no incentives to confront her own issues and learn how to better manage them. By protecting her from those logical consequences, you are destroying all opportunities she has to be forced to confront her issues and learn to acquire new emotional skills. 

After 16 years of abusive and violent behavior from a spouse, the logical consequence is divorce. In 16 years, she has had endless opportunities to seek therapy and work hard to learn how to control her emotions. She has repeatedly chosen not to do so.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

You cannot save her.

Look up the term Knight In Shining Armor (KISA for short).

If you want to fix someone, start with yourself and why you are willing to accept being married to someone who treats you so poorly.


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## MrRight (Apr 17, 2017)

Uptown said:


> You cannot protect her from her own bad decisions without harming her with your enabling behavior. Let me explain. If she were a young child, you could protect her from rash decisions like running into traffic by physically restraining her.
> 
> With a grown woman, however, it is important you allow her to suffer the logical consequences of her bad decisions (except for suicide threats, where the logical consequence is your calling the police). Otherwise, she has no incentives to confront her own issues and learn how to better manage them. By protecting her from those logical consequences, you are destroying all opportunities she has to be forced to confront her issues and learn to acquire new emotional skills.
> 
> After 16 years of abusive and violent behavior from a spouse, the logical consequence is divorce. In 16 years, she has had endless opportunities to seek therapy and work hard to learn how to control her emotions. She has repeatedly chosen not to do so.


Thanks. more good advice and anaysis.

She asked me yesterday - how did I come across? (re the incident I related) she often does this - and my true answer would always be the same. Badly!

what do you suggest I tell her?


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## Uptown (Mar 27, 2010)

MrRight said:


> My wife... accused an education professional of some quite preposterous things.... She asked me yesterday - how did I come across? What do you suggest I tell her?


I suggest you stop walking on eggshells (i.e., stop enabling her) and tell her the truth. Doing so, however, means you will no longer support her false self image of always being "The Victim." She will respond by becoming furious and blaming everything on you. If she has strong and persistent BPD traits, she likely is only willing to remain married to you as long as you continue to support her false self image.


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