# The Childrens Bill of Rights



## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

Another thread brought this up and I decided to research it again myself. There are a few "versions" out there, but I wanted to speak to this one in particular: Children's Bill of Rights in Divorce | DivorceNet.com We've all heard bits and pieces of this concept throughout our divorce process and after from time to time. I like the list very much, and try my hardest to temper my actions and words to my daughter accordingly. *My situation is a bit unique that I have sole custody of D8, her mother moved states away, has very little contact with her (a phone call or text once or twice a week) and hasn't seen her in almost 6 months. 

I'm struggling with number 6 on the list. It reads: "Neither parent shall communicate moral judgments to the child about the other parent's choice of values, lifestyle, choice of friends, successes or failures in life (career, financial, relational) or residential choice." 

I am 100% against the choices her mother made in the past to abandon her family. Maybe even still bitter to some extent that my daughter has to grow up without two normal parents. I'm happy with my own choices to divorce her and did so for all the right reasons. But my eight year old angel is like me in many ways. She wants to see the good in people and has her mom on a pedestal at times. I want to be able to teach her these life lessons so that she does not repeat the terrible things her mother has done / is doing. 

Anyone have words of advice here? Is this #6 too broad? Are there ways to decry the actions/choices of the other parent without just bashing them? I feel like I've done a decent job here, but is it OK to just flat out tell a young child "Look, your mom messed up big time and is dealing with the consequences. What she did/does is not OK and I don't want you to repeat her mistakes"?

I don't give 2 craps about what her mom does with her life at this point, but many of the behaviors and actions she continues to make on her downward spiral (lying, cheating, drugs, etc) I absolutely want my daughter to avoid.


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## Morgiana (Oct 18, 2011)

I think 6 (moral judgements) and 23 (child support talk) have exceptions, although not in my case. 3 (overhearing fights) has been unintentionally broken in my house due to kids being awake long after they went to bed. I just found that talking to them about it helps. Not blaming other parent, but explaining people fight, and that mommy and daddy love them both very much.

6 in cases of unlawful behavior or behavior that puts kids at great risk should be talked about with the kids, but in terms of poor choices or globally about the behavior. Not necessarily about the other parent directly. You are trying to instill morality and good judgement in your kids; if the have a alcoholic for a parent, talking about alcohol and what it does to a person should be first priority. Especially if he child will be exposed to it or is prevented from seeing a parent because of it.

23 can be necessary for a parent who is having trouble with expenses, especially if the other parent is already putting bugs into the kids ears about it. I knew we were poor growing up, but I didn't have direct knowledge of finances. Same like with my kids, dad gets them all sorts of gizmos, and takes them on vacations he can't really afford and asks. Kids then come to me asking why I don't do some of these things, and I tell them because daddy and I choose to spend our money differently (I'm paying off debt from divorce , but I'm glad they get to do fun stuff with their dad.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

This is tricky, IMO. There is a real problem when one parent's clearly established morals are at odds with an ex. In my case, one child independently discovered her father's infidelity, and I later felt compelled to share this with the younger child so she could understand why her sibling was struggling. Disagree with me if you want, but at the time it was much more important that the children could support each other. When describing what dad was up to I said that I could not live with his behavior, but he will always be your father. Still a bit judgmental, but 100% accurate statement. 
His subsequent behavior towards them has shown them the kind of parent he chose to be.

Number 23 is hard to keep. I don't share that the ex is in arrears, but when they ask for something I can't afford I say I am waiting on some funds. They don't know if I am referring to an investment, a paycheck or whatever. I don't say it, but they know.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

And I will add that the ex violated 17 and 25 during his visit over Christmas, but the kids totally called him out on it.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Divorce Poison is a great book for addressing such things. After all, you want to impart your morals as a parent. But you don't have to degrade the other parent to do that. Kids are smart and they'll eventually draw that dotted line but YOU don't do it. Take the high road.

For instance, if you watch a TV show or read a news article or even hear about an actor or actress having an affair, by all means, express your opinion. Tell them that you think people need to address their grievances with their spouse and if they can't solve the problem then divorce before carrying on with another. Ask them their opinions - likely they will agree.


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Divorce Poison is a great book for addressing such things. After all, you want to impart your morals as a parent. But you don't have to degrade the other parent to do that. Kids are smart and t*hey'll eventually draw that dotted line *but YOU don't do it. Take the high road.
> 
> *For instance, if you watch a TV show or read a news article or even hear about an actor or actress having an affair, by all means, express your opinion.* Tell them that you think people need to address their grievances with their spouse and if they can't solve the problem then divorce before carrying on with another. Ask them their opinions - likely they will agree.


Thank you all for the replies. EW, I think this is the part I'm struggling with the most. I do use real life examples of people making good choices and bad, and learning what consequences are. However I worry a bit she will NOT be able to draw the dotted line, and that in her mind her mom will always be a saint that obviously had very good reasons for doing what she did and therefore is an exception to the rule. Does that make sense? Maybe I'm over thinking this.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Why do you feel the need to adjust your daughter's view of her mother? I think this one is on you. You want your daughter to acknowledge it wasn't your fault? You want your daughter to not put her mother on a pedestal? You don't want your daughter to forgive her/you want her to hold a grudge or be angry with her mother?

Notice those all ask "Do YOU want...?" None of those point to putting your daughter first - instead this is about what you want. You want vindication, recognition, whatever. 

It is perfectly normal to be resentful that the spouse caused all of this hardship to you and your family while getting off scott-free where the children are concerned. I get it. My daughter was nearly 5 when I left and my ex was a Disney Dad and could do no wrong in her eyes. They both blamed me for leaving. Of course he never acknowledged to her (or even himself) that he was verbally and physically abusive and refused marriage counseling. But damaging my daughter's relationship with her father wouldn't have made anything better for me. That would be the act of a bitter woman. I didn't want to be that kind of person.

My daughter is now 16. Now she drops a comment here or there that lets me know she is seeing that side of him I saw far too much - the one that made me leave. She no longer sees him through those adoring childish eyes. Yes, she loves him but she is no longer disillusioned about him as a man. Your children are not adults and they don't need to see your relationship as an adult would. 

Some day your daughter may experience cheating first hand by finding out a boy took another girl to the movies. Or maybe her best friend's boyfriend was seen holding hands with another girl at school. At some point she will be exposed to this type of behavior and understand the hurt it causes. But there is no room for moral high ground or who is right/who is wrong or right at this point in her life. 

It's hard to hear happy stories, kids oblivious to the 'real' person you know your ex to be. Maybe you feel you shouldn't be the bad guy. Or at the very least she shouldn't be allowed to be "good" in your daughter's eyes. But really, let your D have that. Just like letting her 'have' the tooth fairy or Santa Clause. Grown up issues will come into her life fast enough. It sounds like she is already aware there was infidelity. That was done TO YOU. It was not done to your daughter. Yes, you can argue that it was in a way because it resulted in divorce which affected the whole family. But you can't expect her to be mad at her Mom just because you are any more than she can expect you to be mad at her teacher because she is because she got a D on an assignment. You have to own your feelings and not project them on her.

Sorry - I know that's hard. Many friends wondered why I just didn't tell her he hit me. As long as he didn't hit HER, that was irrelevant. That was between us, not between them. Their relationship is theirs alone. It is not mine, therefore it is not mine to taint or to glorify. It stands alone.


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

I believe part of me IS still bitter, and I'm still working on myself two years later. The hardest part for me is not that my ex has bad character flaws, it's that she has been a danger to her children in the past. So it's not easy for me to just classify her in the same bucket as the Disney Parents out there. She doesn't see her mom. They only talk on the phone occasionally. And yet I get the fun questions like "why haven't I seen mommy in so long?" and I can't just answer with "Well sweetie, the last time your mom had you for visitation she left you with a neighbor so that she could try to kill herself with a knife. She hurt another neighbor who tried to stop her." --At least she had the good sense not to let my daughter see that. 

I also flat out don't want D8 around the type of drug dealers and criminals that my ex is around now. I don't trust her (if she ever has visitation again) to not expose my daughter to that crap, or even be incapacitated to take care of her if needed. She even let her then 13 yo son (from previous marriage) smoke pot with her boyfriend at the time, who also gave him Playboy magazines which he brought to school in his backpack. (Luckily he lives with his dad now but he's seen/done too much **** in since she blew our family apart).

So I'm not sure it's about me wanting to control how she feels about her mom specifically, but perhaps a whole group of people with those lifestyle choices. I want my daughter to be better than that and she deserves better than that. 

Thank you for the perspective EW. That was a great post and I will think on it. This is a long road and I'm still learning.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

You can certainly say that last time Mom left her with someone and made some bad choices that the court didn't think were safe so for now she will have to talk on the phone. There's nothing wrong with telling a non-biased, child-friendly truth. You could even say Mommy was so upset and sad over something that she couldn't really be a good Mommy for a while but she loves them very much and still wants to talk to them and hear about their life.

Talk to a family counselor. They'll give you great ideas on ways to handle the tough questions. I did and it was very helpful.


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

Yep, I'm still in IC and my daughter has her own IC that I routinely check in with to ask those types of questions as well.


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## daddymikey1975 (Apr 18, 2009)

My S12 lives with me full time. I have 50/50 custody of my other kids. My S12 hasn't spent much time with his mom. She shows no interest in him and he doesn't much voice any. Concern over it. We live less than 2 miles apart. 

Yesterday my son texted me about a work related trip to TN that I'm leaving for on Monday (from Northern Indiana). A few weeks ago I made arrangements with ex wife for him to stay there with her (he has school Tuesday and Wednesday) and reminded her that he has a dentist appointment Tuesday morning. 

His text yesterday was along the lines of "dad, mom said I can't go with you to TN because you're not going because of work. She also said the appointment can be rescheduled"... I forwarded him the email exchange between my boss, the trainer, and myself. I asked him to call me and we reviewed the email. 

I reassured him that I would NEVER lie to him. I reminded him why (initially) he couldn't go with me. And after reviewing the emails, asked what his opinion was of my trip. His reply was that it looks work related. I asked what he thought of mom telling him this. He said "mom's a liar. Do I have to stay with her while you're gone?" 

Broke my heart. I decided to take him with me. We've already planned some sight seeing. He's taking his Xbox and my laptop for entertainment while I'm in class for the one day. 

He sees his mom for who she is. I don't need to tell him. When she does stuff like this, I always ask how such and such makes him feel. This way, when he has a problem, we can discuss feelings instead of the action that caused it. It helps him process feelings and gives him a chance to see her true colors 

OP just let your daughter ask you questions, don't ever lie to her, but always filter the truth to what she can handle in age appropriate replies. She will see her mom's true colors eventually. Take joy knowing that kids recognize the parent that puts their needs (kids) above their own.

I then sent her some text messages asking if she had a conversation with him about my trip. Her reply was "I told him I didn't think the trip was work related. First you were going in January, then changed it to February. Seems suspicious, but that's my opinion. 

I reminded her that her opinion is irrelevant. She further alienated her son and I would be taking him with me. Then I reminded her that she was to contact me directly about issues and not drag the kids into her opinions. 

I'm sure she is delighted that I'm now "forced" to take my son with me. Which may have been her goal in the first place. I dunno. I am frustrated that I can't just go and enjoy three days (two driving and one in class lol) alone, but I will find enjoyment with my son too. I never get adult time, but such is single parent life. 

Fwiw S12 and I made plans to visit the corvette museum in Bowling Green KY on the way down and tour the corvette assembly plant on the return trip. Still hafta pack in some more sight seeing. 

Just my experience. Sorry for the novel.


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## TheGoodGuy (Apr 22, 2013)

Thanks DM. I know how you feel about getting some "just you" time, but it sounds like you guys will be making the best of it, I LOVE Corvettes so a trip to Bowling Green sounds awesome. Take some pictures and enjoy the memories.


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## daddymikey1975 (Apr 18, 2009)

TheGoodGuy said:


> Thanks DM. I know how you feel about getting some "just you" time, but it sounds like you guys will be making the best of it, I LOVE Corvettes so a trip to Bowling Green sounds awesome. Take some pictures and enjoy the memories.


I'll post up some pics for ya when we get back. Unfortunately, they won't allow cameras or phones in the assembly plant so that museum will have to suffice. Hahahaha


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## daddymikey1975 (Apr 18, 2009)

TheGoodGuy said:


> Thanks DM. I know how you feel about getting some "just you" time, but it sounds like you guys will be making the best of it, I LOVE Corvettes so a trip to Bowling Green sounds awesome. Take some pictures and enjoy the memories.


Cancelled my trip to TN last night. Central Kentucky is expecting 10-15 inches of snow and by the time the snow storm hit, I'd be driving right through it.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Daddymikey you have a great perspective. I pretty much did the same thing with my daughter. She is finally making those little comments that let me know she sees why I left. I no longer am the one to blame. It took 10 years but that doesn't matter. She figured it out without my trashing him. 

We were ordered by the court to not discuss custody, support, court or anything with her. I tiptoed around that for a very long time and only referenced it when discussing who spends holidays with her. 

I could put it off no longer as she was really pushing for answers and I was struggling for the right way to explain it. So I took her to dinner (no escape, wouldn't create a scene, non-crowded weeknight). Instead of talking about court I told her about his psychological evaluation results and what what being a narcissist on the high end of the spectrum means (in a watered down, age appropriate way). That is fact, not my simply being mean or tearing him down and it isn't really about court or the order. I did tell her that was why everyone recommended she stay with me even more than before. She seemed to soak that in and was deep in thought the rest of the meal. She hasn't asked about it since - she gets it. She still loves him but I think she puts less stock in what he says.

Oh and he also doesn't like keeping appointments that fall on his time - he says it cuts into his time and that stuff should be done on my time. That's fine - if being a father cuts into his time with his daughter, so be it. SMH


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## daddymikey1975 (Apr 18, 2009)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Daddymikey you have a great perspective. I pretty much did the same thing with my daughter. She is finally making those little comments that let me know she sees why I left. I no longer am the one to blame. It took 10 years but that doesn't matter. She figured it out without my trashing him.
> 
> We were ordered by the court to not discuss custody, support, court or anything with her. I tiptoed around that for a very long time and only referenced it when discussing who spends holidays with her.
> 
> ...


I guess for me, I believe in personal accountability. I am accountable to my kids for my actions. Just as my ex is for hers. 

If I begin to treat the children like crap, they will know and they will ask me about it. I've seen them ask her (my D5 has called her mom out on a couple things already, and my ex wasn't the most truthful, but I let sleeping Giants lie). 

Kids aren't dumb. They will figure out who's who. 

Good for you enjoli for taking the time to have a heart to heart with her. I'm sure she really needed that and it gave her some insight and probably some much needed answers.


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