# GSA and/or an emotional affair.



## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Can a long lost brother and half sister have an emotional affair? Anyone every heard of Genetic Sexual Attraction? GSA has up to a 50% hook up rate! It sounds so powerful I can’t even compete.

My wife recently was contacted thru ancestry and been reunited on social media with a half brother that their mother gave away at birth. Their ages are 55 and 60. It started off with emails, then texting, phone calls and finally FaceTime. She was a late sleeper, but early rising and primping seemed to take a priority to get on FaceTime at least two hours earlier than her normal waking time. He had become the first and last person she communicates with daily for 4 to 5 hours, seven days a week. It was well beyond friendship hours past midnight and 3 am east coast time. I seen texts where she was bad mouthing me. He is having martial problems prior to contacting my wife. She told me his wife is self centered. How she knows that I don’t know? They have become each other’s emotional cheerleaders. I can’t believe just meeting someone, they tell each other other that they miss each and love each over a dozen times a day. And there are many, many more red flags. It seems she become judgmental towards me and of course everything is my fault because you never listen to me! Seriously I don’t know where the anger and disrespect came from. She is blame shifting to justify her actions. When I try to communicate it is way are you beating me up! We travelled the world, she doesn’t have any financial worries and I thought our relationship was great. We been married for 40 years and in less than 30 days I’ve been kicked to the curb.

I read numerous articles on emotional affairs. It sure seems to fit. We even took some online EA quizzes and they indicate we are nearing a divorce. I wrote her half brother and told him I was not comfortable with both of their flirtatious behaviors. I am not use to my wife waking to greet him every morning, texting for hours during the day and lastly spending hours being smitten on FaceTime every night. She said she cannot stop communicating with him. She just refuses to believe there is an emotion affair since they have the same mother and never did anything wrong. I spoke up and show her dozens of articles without any true acknowledgement, only that he is her brother. My only saving grace is he lives in 2,000 miles away. She knows how this is negatively affecting our relationship, but I guess GSA already took a firm grip. He knew of GSA and is playing her emotions like a fiddle. She is still on FaceTime with him. There no winning in losing.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Does his wife know what's going on?


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Yes!! She believes I am the bad guy for speaking up. Little does she knows her husband told my wife he wants to divorce her. I understand he retired from the military with 100% PTSD. He apparently goes to Counseling for me telling him to slow his roll. His Counselor indicated my letter to him was a little strong! I will post my letter. It is all so unbelievable. I have their kissy face text messages! I know how this works deny, deny, deny...then lie!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Ca Firefighter said:


> Yes!! She believes I am the bad guy for speaking up. Little does she knows her husband told my wife he wants to divorce her. I understand he retired from the military with 100% PTSD. He apparently goes to Counseling for me telling him to slow his roll. His Counselor indicated my letter to him was a little strong! I will post my letter. It is all so unbelievable. I have their kissy face text messages! I know how this works deny, deny, deny...then lie!


Did you send copies of their text messages to his wife? Do any of those say that he wants to divorce his wife?

Who told you that his wife believes that you are the bad guy? Did is wife tell you that directly? Or did the husband tell you that?

He's in counseling because of your letter? Really? This is an ex military guy? He sounds like a real manipulator.


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## Marc878 (Aug 26, 2015)

Inform his wife. Affairs work best in secrecy. If you don’t it’ll just enable them.


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## Buffer (Dec 17, 2019)

This is way over the top for half siblings to be carrying on. If WW isn’t willing to talk then get her attention. Have her served. That may bring her to the talking table. If the rolls were reversed she would be all over you to stop. 
buffer


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Ca Firefighter said:


> We travelled the world, she doesn’t have any financial worries and I thought our relationship was great. We been married for 40 years and in less than 30 days I’ve been kicked to the curb.


Here's the thing CA. She'll won't really kick you to the curb. She'll keep you around for financial support and for ****s and giggles while fawning over her long lost half bro. My take is her new hobby will wear off leaving you to realize exactly where you were on her totem pole when a new kid came on the scene. The good news is your BIL's wife will likely walk away with half his military pension if he divorces her. (What does this dame look like? Maybe you two could cry on each others shoulders, if you know what I mean) In the interim, you may want to consider any future personal sacrifices you're willing to make to add to your wife's future comfort and lifestyle now that you know how easy she can put you on the shelve.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

There was a case in the UK where a half brother and half sister met for the first time and were caught having sex in the lift (elevator) of a multistory car park on the same day they met. They were found guilty in court of incest. It was reported in the UKs daily papers.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Don’t waste your time trying to apply a label (EA, GSA, incestuous, plutonic) to their relationship. 
Why? Because the definitions are too general and it’s a game that she will never let you win. 

From your post, it seems when cornered she responds with something like: “it’s harmless because it’s not sexual or he’s my brother”. 

However, what’s relevant is the impact of their relationship (whatever it’s called) on your marriage:

1 – She’s not only investing too much time (in general) in someone other than her spouse – but she’s investing more time each day with him than you. That’s not fair. She’s acting like she’s single.

2- Contact with him is toxic to your marriage and self-destructive to her (their conversations are not constructive and she therefore comes away dissatisfied with her life/marriage). 

3 – The fact that she’s addicted to his attention (at the expense of her marriage) is a red flag. Her admission that she can’t stop communicating with him (i.e., she’s addicted to the feeling he triggers in her head) is symptomatic of an emotional affair. 

Furthermore, since she’s addicted to the attention she receives from him, she will not stop voluntarily (unless you somehow motivate her). And asking nicely or trying to reason with her failed.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Consider telling her that although they share some genetic material they weren’t raised as brother & sister – and therefore don’t share the life time emotional bond/shared childhood & life experiences of brother & sister. 

In reality, she doesn’t know this man (he’s a total stranger). The texts and conversations are just air (with no substance) – and since he’s a stranger, this guy is just a fantasy that satisfies some subconscious need within her.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Before you take more serious action like insist on NC, be sure you are able to monitor her behavior/calls/texts. Since, she's addicted to his attention she will likely make contact behind your back.

Don't try to compete with the OM. You can compliment her and treat her like royalty - but you (as a spouse) can never compete with this new source of attention that feeds her ego. Every time you attempt to compete, or plead with her (or cry) it's viewed (by an addicted/obsessed mind) as weakness - and a free pass to continue her behavior.

Basically, she has all the benefits of a husband (on her terms and time table) and a 'special' relationship which she admits is negatively impacting her marriage.

You're afraid of pushing her away by showing zero tolerance for her relationship. If that's the case, then you've already lost her. If she needs 'time' to chose her husband vs this man, then you've already lost her.

Experience shows that you have to be willing to risk your marriage in order to save it.

What that means is that in order to be taken seriously she has to believe (bluff if you have to) that you will divorce her rather than tolerate this toxic relationship with a stranger (even though they share genetic material, she doesn't know him) that is destroying your marriage.

Google and implement the '180', talk to your attorney about how divorce will impact you, separate bank accounts - it sends a message that you're serious.

Finally, under the circumstance, I think it's reasonable to insist on NC for 6 months (a cooling off period to step back and evaluate). And in the interim seek IC to determine why she would risk her marriage for this man. If she can't identify her 'why' (and fix it) then she can't be trusted with resuming contact. If she can't or won't do that, then you know what level of the 180 to implement etc.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

She needs to learn that actions have consequences.
*Time for some shock and awe.*
Separate bank accounts, cut off any joint checking accounts, credit cards etc.
Consult with an attorney and have her served.
If you don't want to spend the money to file, print off the paperwork from your local court, start filling it out, and leave it where she can find it. Or perhaps, sit her down and have her assist you in filling it out.
Still, meet with the attorney for options and to make sure you are protected.
Study up on the 180. Implement it.
Tell her that she has made it clear that she doesn't want to be with you. Tell her that you will be more than glad to assist her in being together with her new love interest. Get a bunch of empty boxes and bring them in the house.
*Take every possible action to blow up her little world. *You will know soon enough where you stand.
If she wants to stay together, have a list of requirements that she must implement to make you feel safe in the relationship.
Above all, I would demand IC for her with a counselor specializing in infidelity whom you have vetted yourself (give her a choice of two, both males) and she signs off on allowing regular communication between you and the counselor.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Just a comment if you insist on NC and she argues that its unfair and/or unnecessarily penalizes her.

NC (e.g., for 6 months) is one of the consequences of her decision to prioritize the OM (I'm not going to legitimize this guy by calling him her brother) vs her marriage/husband. She not only must go NC but she needs to rebuild the marriage that she almost destroyed.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

whoo boy. That's a complicated one.

I have some experience with one of my wife's male "friends" coming back out of the woodwork and having her talk inappropriately about our marriage, hiding/deleting texts, lying, etc... and what I can say not to do is:

Cry, beg, or negotiate agreements that you're not actually comfortable with
Issue threatening ultimatums
Try to draw her back into a better relationship with you ("nice" her back into the marriage)
I did those things, and it all made it worse. #1 just pushed her away because I was being insecure. #2 just gave her excuses - I was being controlling, etc. #3 just reinforced her behaviour - as in, "hey, if I text another man, my husband treats me nicer! I'll do that more!"

Instead, these things worked (even though they are cruel):

I withdrew from the marriage and started acting single. Not as in dating other women, but being gone a lot, at the gym, out with buddies, etc. Not explaining where I was or who I was with. I was frequently in mixed company just as friends (never 1-1 but women were often present in a group setting).
I informed her in no uncertain terms that if it was OK for her to be texting a man about our marriage, deleting the texts, and lying to me about it, then I would feel free to do the same with other women. And then I changed all my passwords.
I went off on personal improvement. Worked out multiple times a day. Ate super clean. Upgraded my wardrobe. 
#1 shocked and terrified her. I've been divorced before, and she knows that once I'm done with someone, I'm done. She didn't like at all that I was going to movies with groups of people, going for drinks after work, and she flipped out when I went on a boy's trip to Vegas (she's been away on multiple girl's trips).

#2 she had to accept, but she did cry about it. She did it, she admitted to it, I recovered all the texts. So she couldn't argue about it. If she didn't like being controlled, she sure had no leg to stand on with imposing double standards.

#3 made her very nervous. One of her best friends at the time actually asked her (jokingly) if she would 'share' me.

All of that turned the tables. None of those are unwarranted. All of them sets you up well and improves your position if you leave or if you stay. You win either way.


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

My concern here is that the OM is a user and only intends to get money or a place to live from your WW, creating an emotional bond is a trick he has mastered in his life.

OM like him frequently have hard luck stories they convincingly tell, car repairs, wife is horrible etc, and oh by the way I just need 20,000 to get on my feet again.

Guard your finances.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

VladDracul said:


> Here's the thing CA. She'll won't really kick you to the curb. She'll keep you around for financial support and for ****s and giggles while fawning over her long lost half bro. My take is her new hobby will wear off leaving you to realize exactly where you were on her totem pole when a new kid came on the scene. The good news is your BIL's wife will likely walk away with half his military pension if he divorces her. (What does this dame look like? Maybe you two could cry on each others shoulders, if you know what I mean) In the interim, you may want to consider any future personal sacrifices you're willing to make to add to your wife's future comfort and lifestyle now that you know how easy she can put you on the shelve.


Thanks for the response. She looks like Karl Malden with longer hair! No thanks you.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Ca Firefighter said:


> Yes!! She believes I am the bad guy for speaking up. Little does she knows her husband told my wife he wants to divorce her. I understand he retired from the military with 100% PTSD. He apparently goes to Counseling for me telling him to slow his roll. His Counselor indicated my letter to him was a little strong! I will post my letter. It is all so unbelievable. I have their kissy face text messages! I know how this works deny, deny, deny...then lie!


This is the email I sent her half brother. The names have been changed to protect the guilty! His Counselor indicated it is a little strong! So what! 

I’ve been with Jamie for 42 years and this September it will be 40 years married. I am her husband and father of two beautiful daughters. I understand you are angry and pissed because I believe you two are having an emotional affair. I would rather you feel honored that I spoke my peace to protect Jamie and our family. I am real man and your brother in law who will shield his family from harm because I love them. You need to know and understand Jamie is my world. I am not comfortable with both of your flirtatious behaviors. I am not use to my wife waking to greet you every morning, texting for hours during the day and spending hours being smitten on FaceTime every night. I think 3-5 hours everyday is excessive. I know you guys are getting to know each other and fulfilling the voids left by abandonment from your parents. I researched emotional affairs to better understand both of your situations. 

Siblings or not emotional affairs are real. I understand you are experiencing some marital issues. Spending 3 to 5 hours everyday, 7 days a week on social media with Jamie will not make your marriage situation better. Your wife Karl and family deserve better. Can you tell me Karl is comfortable with your spending so many hours with Jamie? Does she even know? Talking past midnight just doesn’t seem right, if fact it a sign of an emotional affair. Please read this article and be honest with yourself, you are having an emotional affair. 21 Of The Most Heartbreaking Signs Of An Emotional Affair 

Put yourself in my shoes and know my gut feeling is right. It is my responsibility to safeguard my family.

Remember I tried for years and wanted to find you. ( I done some amateur genealogy research) My only request you respect my marriage. Slow your roll. It is my wish we become family. We will talk soon. I am going to send you one article on GSA that scared the crap out of me. Thanks for your compassion and understanding.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

What a joke, a little strong would have been flying out to see him and beating him with a baseball bat. That may have been a little strong.

What a puss...


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

BluesPower said:


> What a joke, a little strong would have been flying out to see him and beating him with a baseball bat. That may have been a little strong.
> 
> What a puss...


Well said.

A H here has no reason to explain to a stranger his marital convictions.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

I want to personally thank each and every person who responded back. This will give me ideas on the direction to take.
Update - when I attempt to open dialogue with my wife it is always about her, her half brother and family are the victims here! You don’t trust me. You are using the texts against me. Quit talking about. We attempted seeking Counseling, but Kaiser only has group therapy and she doesn’t want to go. 
I asked what she thinks. We are just going to back to how things were. I asked did we have marriage problems prior to here brother coming into the picture. The answer was no. I asked if she was involved in an emotional affair and her answer was maybe a little. Did you talk to you brother about it. Brother indicated no EA, husband is crazy and I’ll always be here for you sis. Did you talk about GSA? No, but he is familiar with it so his wife told her.
As far as his wife Karl goes she has read the above email. She indicated I was jealous, controlling and perverted. She indicated her husband been alive for 480,000 hours. It is no big deal that he talked to Jamie 150 hours in a month. 
Well I think talking for 150 hours in a month is extreme and in fact is 6 days and 6 hours straight if you do the math. I refuse to answer any of her or his email. I blocked them both. My wife will not stop talking to her brother. It going to be a lot less, so she says. She says it’s just getting to know him and will fade in time. The reality is the additive behavior only has increased. I told her he cannot come to my house ever. He is a trained soldier and combat veteran. I cannot or will not place myself in harms way. I did plenty of that as a paid Professional Firefighter for 30 years.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Who says he has PTSD. Who says he's a combat vet? Who says he sees a therapist? Did you speak with his wife directly? Or is all this information through your wife and/or the OM?

Assume he's lying or exaggerating. Plus who cares? It's not your or your wife's job to hold his hand at the cost of your marriage! 

Your email was NOT too 'strong'. It was direct and very respectful. 

Do not argue about whether you are reasonable, or the bad guy, or whether the email was appropriate or too strong.
Why? because it's an argument that your wife (in her obsession) will not let you win.

Do not validate this man by calling him her 'brother'. A brother holds a position of love and trust. This man hasn't earned that position. He just shares some DNA. 

HOWEVER, stop blaming him for your wife's EA. It's a waste of time and focus. Only your wife has an obligation to you (this man does not). Focus on your wife - she made a series of decisions every day to engage with this man and toss her husband aside.

Your wife is not a victim of the OM. Your wife is 100% responsible for her decision to bring this stranger into your lives (basically inserting this stranger into your marriage).


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Stay in touch (if only to vent). You are not the first to walk this path. You are not alone.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Ca Firefighter said:


> I want to personally thank each and every person who responded back. This will give me ideas on the direction to take.
> Update - when I attempt to open dialogue with my wife it is always about her, her half brother and family are the victims here! You don’t trust me. You are using the texts against me. Quit talking about. We attempted seeking Counseling, but Kaiser only has group therapy and she doesn’t want to go.
> I asked what she thinks. We are just going to back to how things were. I asked did we have marriage problems prior to here brother coming into the picture. The answer was no. I asked if she was involved in an emotional affair and her answer was maybe a little. Did you talk to you brother about it. Brother indicated no EA, husband is crazy and I’ll always be here for you sis. Did you talk about GSA? No, but he is familiar with it so his wife told her.
> As far as his wife Karl goes she has read the above email. She indicated I was jealous, controlling and perverted. She indicated her husband been alive for 480,000 hours. It is no big deal that he talked to Jamie 150 hours in a month.
> Well I think talking for 150 hours in a month is extreme and in fact is 6 days and 6 hours straight if you do the math. I refuse to answer any of her or his email. I blocked them both. My wife will not stop talking to her brother. It going to be a lot less, so she says. She says it’s just getting to know him and will fade in time. The reality is the additive behavior only has increased. I told her he cannot come to my house ever. He is a trained soldier and combat veteran. I cannot or will not place myself in harms way. I did plenty of that as a paid Professional Firefighter for 30 years.


1. start to act single. Pull back from the marriage. Do not set ultimatums, focus on doing what you want to do instead.
2. tell her if that's good for the goose, it's good for the gander. Be open to forming non-romantic relationships with women.
3. be the best you that you can be.

The problem isn't this dude. There can always be another dude. Don't focus on him.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

So, it doesn't matter what HIS WIFE or HE thinks about this -- it is what YOU feel about YOUR marriage and what boundaries you want to enforce.
You wife has already said that she won't stick to those boundaries, so "going back to what we had before" is rugsweeping and WILL NOT end well for you.
What are the consequences to her for this? Does your wife even talk to YOU for 6 hours a day? I bet NOT.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

jlg07 said:


> So, it doesn't matter what HIS WIFE or HE thinks about this -- it is what YOU feel about YOUR marriage and what boundaries you want to enforce.
> You wife has already said that she won't stick to those boundaries, so "going back to what we had before" is rugsweeping and WILL NOT end well for you.
> What are the consequences to her for this? Does your wife even talk to YOU for 6 hours a day? I bet NOT.


Good point.

Besides, continuing on this path will only give them both a "get out of jail free" card - OP will just be the bad guy for trying to control or get in the way of his wife's relationship with her brother. You can't win that game, so don't try.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

EleGirl said:


> Did you send copies of their text messages to his wife? Do any of those say that he wants to divorce his wife?
> 
> Who told you that his wife believes that you are the bad guy? Did is wife tell you that directly? Or did the husband tell you that?
> 
> He's in counseling because of your letter? Really? This is an ex military guy? He sounds like a real manipulator.


I only seen some on the texts and never made copies. No he told my wife and she told me they are having martial problems. His wife sent me several negative emails placing all the blame on me. He indicated my email was disturbing and hateful. Yes he indicated he was going to counseling because of the letter. I find him fake. He tried to impress my wife by telling her he makes $5,000 a month retired. He commanded 60,000 soldiers and never had any issues like this. I guess he want to have a pissing contest. I retired as a Fire Battalion Chief and make a whole hell a lot more than that. I worked in Command Staff and was the Safety Officer responsible for a population of 240,000. Opps sorry got of point. It all so ludicrous!


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Robert22205 said:


> Consider telling her that although they share some genetic material they weren’t raised as brother & sister – and therefore don’t share the life time emotional bond/shared childhood & life experiences of brother & sister.
> 
> In reality, she doesn’t know this man (he’s a total stranger). The texts and conversations are just air (with no substance) – and since he’s a stranger, this guy is just a fantasy that satisfies some subconscious need within her.


The truth of the matter his parents gave up their parental rights when he was adopted out. There are no sibling rights either. He legally belong to his adoptive family. I told my wife you know very little about him and need to exercise extreme caution. I sent her adoption guidelines in getting to know you family. I told her they share only her mother’s dna. They have zero childhood bonds. In fact through my research there is most likely one more younger brother that was given away. She throws caution to the wind. It nothing but I❤U, 😘😍🥰😘💕💗. I miss you. I wish I was there. Sad crap but all true. She has the love addiction bad.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

It’s got to stop cold turkey. Or it will just go underground and get hidden.

you are 100% accurate in how you feel about this. Your wife’s change in attitude is toward you is all that you need to know. I don’t know how you can make it stop, but if it doesn’t, your marriage is toast, and may already be. You’ve been replaced in her mind as the man she is most interested in talking to. At this point in my life, knowing what I know—-it didn’t stop and her attitude didn’t change, I’d divorce her. She’ll wind up divorcing you when something better comes along anyway.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Robert22205 said:


> Who says he has PTSD. Who says he's a combat vet? Who says he sees a therapist? Did you speak with his wife directly? Or is all this information through your wife and/or the OM?
> 
> Assume he's lying or exaggerating. Plus who cares? It's not your or your wife's job to hold his hand at the cost of your marriage!
> 
> ...


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Here is the bottom line... Everything she said, is complete crap. 

And you don't know what he and his wife said. If they said that it is crap. Tell you what... File for divorce. 

Have her served with divorce papers, ASAP. If she does not change her opinion immediately, the just dump her. 

Abd how does she know what he think about GSA if they did not talk about is? How is that, ugh....

You really have problems buddy, and only radical strong action stands a chance of fixing it.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Stop thinking about whether he's a fraud or whether his wife agrees with you. His career or success in life (and yours) is irrelevant (as is the fact they share DNA).

Stop getting dragged into a discussion of whether you're being reasonable or jealous. She's not the victim - your marriage is. 

All the above crap diverts your attention from the real issue (i.e., for the last month she chose the OM over her husband). 

Every spouse has a right to feel safe, loved and valued in their marriage. Your wife's total over the top obsession with the other man is a big fail. The fact that they share DNA is irrelevant. Your wife's obsessive behavior and focus on the OM is a big fail. NOW she needs to do whatever you need to save her marriage.

I know this scares you but - your wife needs to chose between the OM (a stranger) and you (the father of her children and a man that loves her). For a woman who values her marriage this should be a no brainer. She shouldn't need even ten minutes to decide.

She let this relationship go too far and ignored her husband - so consequently, there's no middle ground. 

Reduced contact is not an option at this time. At a minimum she needs to agree to NC for 6 months. If she's interested in saving her marriage, she will agree. Six months of no contact should be a small price to pay.

If she can go NC for 6 months, that's evidence that the relationship is harmless - and in the future a reduced level of contact may be acceptable to you.

If she can't or won't agree to NC for 6 months (or even 3 months), then you know (really know) that your marriage is over. Better to know the truth today than one year from now.


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## VladDracul (Jun 17, 2016)

Sorry but I have a really hard time getting my mind around a brother and sister wanting to bang each other. Pretty much turns my stomach. I sure as hell wouldn't want to be with a person that had the hots for a sibling; a second cousin would be bad enough.


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

Your wife has other things going on other than meeting her long lost brother. How old are your daughters, recently out of the nest or about to? If they have been out a while, in the past year or so they have become more independent, no longer call mom for advice? They don't need mom anymore? I see that happen fairly frequently in affairs.

Of course I've heard of brothers and sisters or halves or steps have things happen, but I never heard of GSA before and I thought it was rather unusual. Wikipedia calls GSA "pseudoscience." I think that's why the counselor dismisses you and the others treat you like you've gone off the rails. But whether GSA is science or pseudoscience or incest or any other name you can call it, it does appear that your wife and her brother are being flirtatious and having an emotional affair.

I find it surprising that all involved - your wife, her brother, her brother's wife - all agree it is 5 hours per day, 150 hours per month.

How long has this been going on?


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

It was so shocking to me. Our kids are 37 and 30. All self reliant and college graduates. We have 3 grandkids too. We done so many things together like family trips to Hawaii. One of his
emails indicates thanks for ruining his life in 30 days. Boo hoo it was about a month. My wife feels she abandoning him. I told her she doesn’t know him
it was her mother that gave him up for adoption.


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

Does your wife talk to your daughters?

Does your wife talk to anyone else besides you and him?

What did your wife stop doing during the 5 hours? Did she cut back from sleep, what else did she have to cut back in order to start talking 5 hours per day with him?


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

Yeah, so...gross.

I understand you have a long happy marriage, kids, grandkids, and that is a lot to throw away. I think they need to cut down contact to a short check in with each other once a month or something just over the phone, with spouses present.

If they won’t agree to that, then this is probably too far gone already. 

Sorry you are here. What a freak thing to have come up in your life!!

Oh, and his wife is clearly a moron.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

OutofRetirement said:


> Does your wife talk to your daughters?
> 
> Does your wife talk to anyone else besides you and him?
> 
> What did your wife stop doing during the 5 hours? Did she cut back from sleep, what else did she have to cut back in order to start talking 5 hours per day with him?


Yes she communicates with our daughters daily, she has plenty of life long friends and we also spend time with my 82 year old mother. We have multiple homes. One homes is 7 houses away from our daughter who has three daughter. We babysit and go to all their school events. 
She was up a few hours earlier to FaceTime, the texted throughout the day and FaceTime into the wee hours of the morning. Like I indicated earlier I researched the Internet. It surely sounded like and emotional affair. So I called both of them out. She cut mainly me out. She was acting like a high school kid in love. We been together since high school in fact I took her to her Senior ball. That is why I asked if it was GSA or EA. These are extremely emotional events, with GSA being the more powerful.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Buffer said:


> This is way over the top for half siblings to be carrying on. If WW isn’t willing to talk then get her attention. Have her served. That may bring her to the talking table. If the rolls were reversed she would be all over you to stop.
> buffer


My wife said she would fully accept the same situation if it was my sister. Talk is cheap. She tried to say I talked a lot to one of my cousins. My cousin use to babysit my brother, sister and me. She is fifteen years older. Trust me we never were kissy face, nor did we every talk for 5 hours or seven days a week. I call it grasping at straws.


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## Buffer (Dec 17, 2019)

Sounds like she has her head in her bottom. As you stated he is a half brother that she never met Yes family bonding is underway, but her actions and words lead to another. If this bloke is who he says he is there will be information all over the internet about his military history. I call him out on his claims.



Ca Firefighter said:


> My wife said she would fully accept the same situation if it was my sister. Talk is cheap. She tried to say I talked a lot to one of my cousins. My cousin use to babysit my brother, sister and me. She is fifteen years older. Trust me we never were kissy face, nor did we every talk for 5 hours or seven days a week. I call it grasping at straws.


There is an agenda here, I think he is trying to get well in with her, then the money request will start. Separate all finances, wife is in lala land. The brothers wife is in on it. It is a scam
One day at a time
Buffer


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## aine (Feb 15, 2014)

There is nothing wrong with your letter! In fact I think it’s very balanced. He is away out of line.
she needs consequences. Start doing the 180, go out, don’t say what you are doing, who you are with. Engage in new activities, etc. Act like you are done with her.

incidentally what do your daughters think of all this?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

OutofRetirement said:


> Your wife has other things going on other than meeting her long lost brother. How old are your daughters, recently out of the nest or about to? If they have been out a while, in the past year or so they have become more independent, no longer call mom for advice? They don't need mom anymore? I see that happen fairly frequently in affairs.
> 
> Of course I've heard of brothers and sisters or halves or steps have things happen, but I never heard of GSA before and I thought it was rather unusual. Wikipedia calls GSA "pseudoscience." I think that's why the counselor dismisses you and the others treat you like you've gone off the rails. But whether GSA is science or pseudoscience or incest or any other name you can call it, it does appear that your wife and her brother are being flirtatious and having an emotional affair.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but I can go to that Wikipedia article and change it to say anything I want to. Wikipedia is not a trusted or respected source. At all.


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Your wife has a new man in her life. It doesn't matter if he is a half-brother or J.C. in the flesh. She is disrespecting you and her marriage for the thrill of attention. Look up the 180 and start practicing detachment. Also, consult a few lawyers to get the lay of the land in case your wife goes totally off the rails.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

aine said:


> There is nothing wrong with your letter! In fact I think it’s very balanced. He is away out of line.
> she needs consequences. Start doing the 180, go out, don’t say what you are doing, who you are with. Engage in new activities, etc. Act like you are done with her.
> 
> incidentally what do your daughters think of all this?


I asked my asked if she told our oldest about this. My wife is very close to her due the grandkids. She said “we have to work it out”. I told my youngest as I am trying to get the phone records and she knows more about that stuff than me. It shows that I have access, but I can’t see any records. My youngest from the get go believes her is after money!


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

I found and sent this post to my wife for educational purposes. She told me to quit beating her up over this and why don’t I look at the positive aspects of a family reunion? Unbelievable!! 


I've not experienced the feelings of gsa, but here's why this topic is so important to me. I'm the wife (ex wife). My husband's daugter found us two years ago. I was THRILLED, because I am an adoptee, and jumped for joy that this young woman got to find the answers to all the questions we adoptees have. I also got to feel like a Mom for the first time, even though she was an adult. My husband had been helping me search for years, and had no inkling that he would be the one experiencing a reunion. I felt like I was a coach helping them through it, since I've run through my possible reunion a million different ways in my head and have been reading, researching and searching for twelve years.

We invited her to move into our home. I knew about gsa and spoke with them at the get-go that this could get confusing if these feelings came along. I assured them that between the three of us as a team, a family, we could deal with anything that came up while they got to experience being reunited. I also "knew" my husband would never get caught up in those kind of emotions and would never, ever act on them. I was naive and wrong. Three months after we met her, she told me that they were involved. I confronted him. They moved out together that day. 

I'm the only person in my circle who "believes" there is such a thing as gsa and that they aren't just perverts. I have asked and asked them to explain the situation to me. I feel they -- especially HE -- owed it to me to at least give me an explanation of what feelings could be so strong that he just "easily" walked away from a 12 year relationship that we both knew was strong and wonderful the month before he met his daughter. I also feel that they should have a safe place either with friends, family or professional counselors where they can discuss what must be a very confusing psychological mess for them. I've kept as close to them as my own hurt emotions would allow (over my being betrayed by my one and only love and by who I thought was going to be my new daughter). Our entire group of friends and family have completely rejected them and are thoroughly disgusted. I've even lost many friends because they are "grossed out" that I could even talk to "people like that." 

My husband tried over and over to quit the affair and live up to his ideal of being the perfect father that she never had. They just haven't been strong enough to stick with it, especially since they have the privacy of living alone together. They are now expecting a baby in June. 

All I can say is "don't go there"!!!!! I haven't experienced the feelings, but trust me, I've felt the repercussions of how devastating gsa can be. And if my loving, devoted husband who I KNOW would never have cheated on me under any circumstances could be overwhelmed by their genetic attraction to the point of giving up our marriage, his home, his family (his parents and all), our wonderful group of lifelong friends, I can't even imagine what turmoil you are going through. This is tough stuff, and don't think that you can get through it by yourself armed just with your morals and self-discipline.


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> Yeah, but I can go to that Wikipedia article and change it to say anything I want to. Wikipedia is not a trusted or respected source. At all.


I must disagree. Wikipedia almost always provides numerous references. It is a starting point for any research.


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

The GSA stuff is almost irrelevant. 5 hrs a day? She thinks about nothing but him. That’s the problem. She does NOT think about the OP, or apparently value his feelings about this, or about her. For whatever the reason, she now places this guy ahead of all other parts of her life. 
The thing is, they’ve never met and all she knows is the guy as he appears over the phone which is “phoney”.😊
If she really knew him she’d probably be appalled. This is all in her head. What it is and should be treated as, is an addiction. 
The only way to break it is by radical action, as someone stated.
OP, you have a lot of joint assets with this woman. You really should see a lawyer and learn your options. Your marriage is very much at peril. Hee actions show a person obsessed with another person. Almost undoubtedly she will find a way to meet him. 

what doesn’t make sense isthe brothers wife being unconcerned with 5 hrs of talking to your wife. That makes zero sense. There is something else going on here..


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Why don't you talk to your older daughter? Expose your wife's flirtatious behavior with her half-brother to anyone and everyone who will listen. Find out everything you can about the guy even if it means hiring a PI to work it for you since you're not very tech savvy.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Ca Firefighter said:


> My wife said she would fully accept the same situation if it was my sister. Talk is cheap. She tried to say I talked a lot to one of my cousins. My cousin use to babysit my brother, sister and me. She is fifteen years older. Trust me we never were kissy face, nor did we every talk for 5 hours or seven days a week. I call it grasping at straws.


One of the best ways to deal with the "I'd be cool with this, so you should be" situations is to actually do it.

My wife claimed she'd be totally cool with me texting/hanging out with other women just as friends. 

So I did it. And I did the rest of the things she claimed she'd be cool with, too. Turns out she wasn't cool with any of it.

Within 3 weeks, it had all come to a head and she was asking me to set some boundaries. I laughed in her face about it. She started pleading me for them. We set them. Problem over - but only by putting the shoe on the other foot.

Everybody's cool with everything as long as it means they get to do whatever they want consequence-free. When it actually happens to them, instead of by them, everything changes.

What I'm saying is you go texting and phone calling someone else. Or at least go be gone a lot. You have no power here, man. Take it back.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Ca Firefighter said:


> I found and sent this post to my wife for educational purposes. She told me to quit beating her up over this and why don’t I look at the positive aspects of a family reunion? Unbelievable!!
> 
> 
> I've not experienced the feelings of gsa, but here's why this topic is so important to me. I'm the wife (ex wife). My husband's daugter found us two years ago. I was THRILLED, because I am an adoptee, and jumped for joy that this young woman got to find the answers to all the questions we adoptees have. I also got to feel like a Mom for the first time, even though she was an adult. My husband had been helping me search for years, and had no inkling that he would be the one experiencing a reunion. I felt like I was a coach helping them through it, since I've run through my possible reunion a million different ways in my head and have been reading, researching and searching for twelve years.
> ...


Stop focusing on this GSA stuff.

Stop focusing on the other dude.

Stop trying to get your wife to see your side.

Stop all of that. It's all a waste of time and puts you in more and more of a negative spot.

Do the opposite of all that. Your wife is an adult. Adults make their own decisions. They also feel the repercussions of their decisions, naturally. But you're not the jury here. You have no authority here. You are an adult that is being impacted by her decisions and you're trying to force the repercussions. So stop.

Focus on the facts instead of your theories. The facts are: she reconnected with a lost sibling. She spends way more time and effort on her relationship with him than she does with you. She talks inappropriately about her marriage with him. She shares intimate details about you and your relationship with him. She hides or attempts to deceive you about what's going on. Those are the objective _facts_. Those facts make you feel betrayed, anxious, violated, and deceived. Those are your _feelings _that are a natural response to those facts.

As a consequence of those facts and your feelings, go act single. Form other relationships. Be gone a lot. Disconnect from your wife. Protect your assets - like monitoring your bank accounts. Talk to a lawyer, even. And focus on self-improvement.

All of those things are natural consequences for what she is doing. Don't try to 'fix' her or get her to see the light. In her mind, you're probably being controlling, manipulative, insecure, and keep forcing this GSA stuff. That is never going to work. You're pushing on a rope there. She has no motivation to change and every motivation to fight you.

Instead, start pulling on that rope. By making it clear that not only can you walk away from your marriage, but you can do it with a smile on your face, money in the bank, and other women will probably be readily available to you. Those are natural consequences that are a result of being a poor partner.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Each of your wife's responses that you post about is the typical defensive strategy used by cheaters: anger, deflect/counterattack, act like the victim, accuse you of being controlling/jealous/over reacting, minimize the relationship and characterize the impact on you as harmless.

Exposure kills affairs. The facts speak for themselves (with or without reference to sex or a PA).

You don't have to accuse your wife of a EA or PA - or that she may be a slippery slope to sex. Just state the facts and the impact on your marriage.

Tell your adult children and make sure they are aware of the hours on the phone, the constant texting in between calls, talking about personal stuff like you and her marriage - as well as your wife's confession that she can't stop (i.e., she's addicted). And last but not least: the subsequent change in behavior and attitude towards you and her marriage.

IMO the most important and conclusive test of the true nature of her relationship is whether she is willing to go 100% NC for 3-6 months. If not, her actions (refusal) speak louder than her words.

NC accomplishes two things: first, it gives her time to cool off (detox) and come down from whatever high she’s on; second, it provides you with hard evidence as to how far the EA has gone.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

When you speak with your attorney, ask about moving your real estate (and other assets ) into a trust in order to prevent the OM from ever getting access.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Robert22205 said:


> When you speak with your attorney, ask about moving your real estate (and other assets ) into a trust in order to prevent the OM from ever getting access.


Thanks we had a trust set up. Tomorrow never guaranteed.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Once you confront, the spouse is often unable to admit to themselves that they are capable of inappropriate behavior; and instead, become defensive and justify their behavior based on praising the OM for his empathy towards her and his high moral character; PLUS she starts to rewrite the history of her marriage in order to shift blame to her husband.

Based on your posts, she's already starting rewriting your marriage in order to justify her behavior to herself.

Be pro active. Do not let her control the narrative to your adult children. It will be biased against you.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Robert22205 said:


> Once you confront, the spouse is often unable to admit to themselves that they are capable of inappropriate behavior; and instead, become defensive and justify their behavior based on praising the OM for his empathy towards her and his high moral character; PLUS she starts to rewrite the history of her marriage in order to shift blame to her husband.
> 
> Based on your posts, she's already starting rewriting your marriage in order to justify her behavior to herself.
> 
> Be pro active. Do not let her control the narrative to your adult children. It will be biased against you.


Great points! Thanks


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

OutofRetirement said:


> I must disagree. Wikipedia almost always provides numerous references. It is a starting point for any research.


Not to to threadjack but absolutely no academic will accept any references to Wikipedia in an essay from a student or for a research project. It would mean that an essay would be down marked and possibly even failed.

A former work colleague told me that she totally trusted Wikipedia. I told her that anyone could change a Wikipedia page. She didn't believe me until I borrowed her PC and changed a Wikipedia page in front of her.


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## No-MoreMr.NiceGuy (May 1, 2020)

Ca Firefighter said:


> I asked my asked if she told our oldest about this. My wife is very close to her due the grandkids. She said “we have to work it out”. I told my youngest as I am trying to get the phone records and she knows more about that stuff than me. It shows that I have access, but I can’t see any records. My youngest from the get go believes her is after money!


 OP, I went dormant on my post a couple weeks ago while I was processing and doing PI stuff on my own. Got back on to post what my findings were and saw your post. To see records, I'm assuming you mean call and text logs with timestamps, it depends who your phone provider is. I have Google Fi and learned that I could only see my own records even though I own the account, so I logged into hers and downloaded it, could make a bar graph to show the evolution of EA that was going on with the amount of texting happening. If your wife uses the Messages app, you can also pair her phone to your computer on web messages and get real time texts. Gotta keep a near constant eye on it though, texts being deleted from the phone are also deleted from the web messages. That's what I did, and boy I regret nothing.


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## OutofRetirement (Nov 27, 2017)

MattMatt said:


> Not to to threadjack but absolutely no academic will accept any references to Wikipedia in an essay from a student or for a research project. It would mean that an essay would be down marked and possibly even failed.
> 
> A former work colleague told me that she totally trusted Wikipedia. I told her that anyone could change a Wikipedia page. She didn't believe me until I borrowed her PC and changed a Wikipedia page in front of her.


Well, I'm not writing an essay, and I have two kids, one in college and one in high school, and the references at the end of the Wikipedia article can be used, not just Wikipdedia itself. If I was going to write an essay for you, no doubt I would cite the research articles at the end of the Wikipedia, not Wikipedia itself.

Smith, Merril D. (2018). _Encyclopedia of Rape and Sexual Violence_. ABC-CLIO. p. 200. ISBN 9781440844904. 
Bull, Sofia (2019). _Television and the Genetic Imaginary_. Palgrave Studies in Science and Popular Culture. Springer. p. 221. ISBN 9781137548474.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Update some people just have poor family relationships and that is not my fault!

Let me air some dirty laundry. My wife has 2 biological half sisters and 2 brothers from her father who never married her mother and left the relationship when she was two years of age. Never any communication from those relatives. 

On her mother side she has possibly two half brothers and one half sister. She grew up with that sister 10 years age difference. She helped raise her as their mother would be at the bar drinking and my wife tended to her sisters needs. They no longer talk as her sister is abusive. One brother has the mutual obsession with my wife and the other has not be located. 

My wife’s mother was been institutionalized for suicide and was an alcoholic. Her half sister been institutionalized in alcohol recover programs many times and for over a year at a time. My wife‘s step father was a full blown alcoholic also.

My wife is addicted to someone who only shares some dna. 
She was sending him morning music prior to getting on FaceTime. It seemed harmless enough, Tammy by Debbie Reynolds (her namesake) and I Love to Love you Baby. Why? 

So her main argument to justify her actions is you have a family, I don’t. That is why she believes she should be able to continue her harmless actions! I asked so no family? What about me, your daughters and granddaughters? She wants blood relatives on her side. So crazy she has plenty of cousins they rarely communicate. I just need to implement some of the items from all the helpful folks here. Thanks again it does shed light on my dilemma.


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## Buffer (Dec 17, 2019)

Strength and respect. Do what you think is needed.
Buffer


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

_*Once you confront, the spouse is often unable to admit to themselves that they are capable of inappropriate behavior; and instead, become defensive and justify their behavior based on praising the OM for his empathy towards her and his high moral character; PLUS she starts to rewrite the history of her marriage in order to shift blame to her husband.*_

You have an incredibly strong factual case that this relationship is negatively impacting your marriage. Therefore, that should be your primary argument to end (or severely limit) contact. 

IMO, you will meet with less resistance (from her as well as others, including your daughters) to therapy and NC with the half-brother, if you primarily focus more on the facts (including her admission she can’t stop) and it’s impact on you and your marriage – vs GSA/PA/incest. 

Or in other words, your wife will never admit (or even validate the notion) that their relationship will escalate to sex. So stop raising the issue with your wife/daughters.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Thanks for the additional information.

1 - IMO (as part of your overall plan to deal with this mess) your wife needs IC (not just to deal with latent issues from childhood but mid-life crisis issues, including this OM).

Since it's so difficult to find a helpful IC, I suggest you screen/interview the IC yourself.

2 - However, IMO she will not benefit from IC as long as she's in contact with the OM.

3 – It’s too soon to assume that she's fixable. Be civil, kind, loving, supportive, etc but don't blindly trust anything she says or assume this mess will work itself out for the best. 

4 - IMO, she's not on the road to recovery until she: proactively (without coaching of any kind) apologizes to you for the pain she caused you (i.e., recognizes/admits to herself that her behavior is inappropriate and hurt you) and takes steps to fix herself.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Blondilocks said:


> Why don't you talk to your older daughter? Expose your wife's flirtatious behavior with her half-brother to anyone and everyone who will listen. Find out everything you can about the guy even if it means hiring a PI to work it for you since you're not very tech savvy.


 I gave my wife a small (immediate family) birthday party yesterday. She cried as the covid 19 has had all of us on lock down and it been months since she has seen some of the folks. We took a lot of pictures. I seen them to her with the caption this is your family! I spoke with my oldest daughter and told her there is two sides on every coin. I told her about many things that would be crossing the EA line. She was surprised because mom of never mention any of that. Again my wife’s main complaint is dad want to keep me from my brother! We really don’t know him at all. It is Puppy Love


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

MattMatt said:


> Not to to threadjack but absolutely no academic will accept any references to Wikipedia in an essay from a student or for a research project. It would mean that an essay would be down marked and possibly even failed.
> 
> A former work colleague told me that she totally trusted Wikipedia. I told her that anyone could change a Wikipedia page. She didn't believe me until I borrowed her PC and changed a Wikipedia page in front of her.


What my wife does is use Wikipedia to do research, but always goes to the primary sources and cites those.

Yes, you can edit Wikipedia pages and make stuff up. Sure. But it’s still a great starting point, and is still fairly accurate for the most part. But just like anything, always go to the primary sources and decide for yourself.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Ca Firefighter said:


> So her main argument to justify her actions is you have a family, I don’t. That is why she believes she should be able to continue her harmless actions!


A good answer to keep handy instead: “Well, maybe it’s a good thing you have family, because you’re about to not have a marriage if this continues much longer.” 

And then just walk away.

Stop defending yourself, justifying things, or arguing with her. She’s just going to fall back on him being family, you being insecure, etc. It’s not going to work. So don’t do that. Do the opposite instead.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Ca Firefighter said:


> I gave my wife a small (immediate family) birthday party yesterday.


Don’t do stuff like that.

You may think you’re showing her that she has a family, but what you may be showing her instead is that she can have him be her emotional support, and you to give her things. I worry all you’re showing her is that having two guys in her life is awesome.


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## Openminded (Feb 21, 2013)

You just rewarded her for her behavior.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

_*... my wife’s main complaint is dad want to keep me from my brother! *_

I can relate to your frustration. That statement alone makes you sound jealous, controlling, and paranoid. 

I heard something similar only in my case it was with a church deacon.

It sounds like a simple enough explanation - but it's a serious attack on you. Why? because (uncontested) it elevates the OM to an unconditional position of love & trust - and therefore makes you out to be a jerk. 

BTW: you might want to call your wife's attention to her statement as a nasty personal attack or slur against her husband (someone that not only deserves to be treated better - but has earned it).


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Do you have access to their texts?

Based on your posts about her comments to you. Whatever he’s saying to her encouraged her to question her marriage or other life choices. His comments are driving a wedge between you two.

With respect to my wife and the deacon, copies of the texts saved the day. Each text by itself seemed harmless.
However, reviewed over time they revealed a toxic nonconstructive (and devious) pattern.

For example, he may: mirror her complaints/regrets about life or you, compliment her, validate her life not lived, maybe he encourages her to rebel and find her true self ....the list is endless.

The key is that a toxic person will not just mirror a complaint but twist it in order to blame it on something the husband did, said or didn't do. A toxic person will compliment your wife's intelligence, hard work, loyalty etc - and slam her husband for not appreciating her enough ... or not encouraging her more.

A healthy person distances themself. However, when someone is vulnerable it drives a wedge between them and their spouse.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

“Wife, irrational or not, what is happening is hurting me deeply. You are aware of this, but unwilling to stop. I don’t understand that. If you told me something I was doing was wounding you, I would do the best I could to stop.

I am not asking you to have no contact ever with your newly found half brother. I am asking for the amount of contact to decrease to something reasonable. 

Perhaps text and talk to me, _your husband_, the most every day? Wouldn’t that make more sense?

With your current behavior you are shoving me away forcefully, with both hands and both feet. Please stop. I love you, and I love our family. Don’t sacrifice all we have for him. You have one week to decease your contact with him to what I feel would be reasonable for a woman and her newly found half brother. If you cannot do that for me and our family, you will have made your choice.”


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## Blondilocks (Jul 4, 2013)

Since your wife wasn't raised with a brother, she needs to learn how brothers and sisters interact. Hint: they do NOT flirt! They do not talk on the phone for 3-5 hours every day. Unless, they are being incestuous. Throw that word at her and watch her recoil and accuse you of being hateful. You calls it like you sees it.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Update May 18, 2020

My wife believes my letter to her shared dna was too much when she asked to read it. So I gave her a copy of the too strong letter for her have for her memories. This morning prior to going over the grandkids house to babysit. I kissed her and looked into her eyes and asked have you talked to you brother lately? She said yes last week on the phone. 

I asked her what about the transparency we talked about and our open communication you were suppose to tell me when you made contact! Oh I didn’t know I had to tell you right away. You are being too controlling. She knows I have not got access to the records, but it coming or I’ll close the account. 

Really I am going to tell his spouse that he wants to divorce her and she spends too much money! 

Oh she was shocked and pissed! That is not your place! 

Well that is what he said to you and she admitted that to me true.

I asked her to have NC for 3 months because all the smitten stuff is a feel good drug or go get counseling. There is something in your and his abandonment that you both enjoy and it is driving a wedge between our 40 year married. How the hell can someone you never spent a single minute of your life have a priority over our marriage. In thirty days I’ve been kicked to the curb. You says that your guys relationship is nothing, then 3 months should be a short period to detox. This relationship is inappropriate and it is like an additive drug.

How can you give me an ultimatum? Your this this, your that, boo hoo.....blah, blah, blah.

So did you talk about me or our relationship? are you still kissy face?

No it is not like *that anymore*. I’ll find a counselor.

She really doesn’t want to talk about our relationship. It been swept under the rug. She doesn’t understand way I feel the way I do! It is easy you fallen in love. And in no time you’ll prioritize him or me again. It happening right as we speak. He is consuming you thoughts. Okay well you don’t have to let me know just right know, think about and like me know tonight. It is really not a ultimatum, just a choice she needs to make. If she doesn’t agree then I know my place. I ready to leave tonight and will. If she talks to him, I am going to let his wife know about the divorce. That should make her happy. Looking at the big picture I am I fit and health man. I am a Native American with hair almost down to my waist. I am sure there are plenty of women who would love to braid my hair. I think it is better to know now than later where I stand.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Ca Firefighter said:


> Update May 18, 2020
> 
> My wife believes my letter to her shared dna was too much when she asked to read it. So I gave her a copy of the too strong letter for her have for her memories. This morning prior to going over the grandkids house to babysit. I kissed her and looked into her eyes and asked have you talked to you brother lately? She said yes last week on the phone.
> 
> ...


You are on the right track.
She is in dire need of consequences.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Ca Firefighter said:


> My wife said she would fully accept the same situation if it was my sister. Talk is cheap. She tried to say I talked a lot to one of my cousins. My cousin use to babysit my brother, sister and me. She is fifteen years older. Trust me we never were kissy face, nor did we every talk for 5 hours or seven days a week. I call it grasping at straws.


Stop letting her turn the tables on you!

she is going heavy offense so that you feel defensive!

ya know what? File for divorce. Maybe that will show her you aren’t putting up with her being more focused on someone outside the marriage!

if she can’t begin to see how this must be affecting you - leave here! If she can’t be honest (OFFERING honesty) leave her!

she hasn’t had enough consequences to see that she was harming the marriage by communicating private info to someone outside the marriage!
Has she worked with a counselor yet on boundaries?


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

I'm sorry this blew up in your face this morning. I know you were hoping for a different reaction/response. 

You're not the first spouse (male or female) to spend years thinking you were both happily married. And now suddenly you find they're not on the same page. 

Don't make the mistake of thinking she's not serious or this is just a short term misunderstanding. She's likely been thinking negatively about her marriage for years - and the OM (who's marriage is falling apart) tapped into it and threw fuel on the fire by validating and encouraging her.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

*I asked her to have NC for 3 months because all the smitten stuff is a feel good drug or go get counseling. *

NO. She will not benefit from counseling while she is still in contact with the OM. 

She has to go NC and also get IC. And you need to get access to the texts.

This isn't you being controlling or whatever - this is the consequence of her inappropriate behavior with the OM. Something she brought on herself.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Ca Firefighter said:


> Update May 18, 2020
> 
> My wife believes my letter to her shared dna was too much when she asked to read it. So I gave her a copy of the too strong letter for her have for her memories. This morning prior to going over the grandkids house to babysit. I kissed her and looked into her eyes and asked have you talked to you brother lately? She said yes last week on the phone.
> 
> ...


So again, every single word that she is saying is complete and total ********... Every word. 

So what is it going to take for you to wake up and be strong about this. 

If she is going to wake up, then divorce papers are all that is going to do it. If she does not wake like in 1 second from receiving papers, then you have your answer. 

Being weak will get you nothing. Only strong action will save this, if it can be saved. 

Good luck...


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Have you asked to see their texts? Did she delete them already?
Ask her tonight if she called or texted the OM and discussed your 'ultimatum'.

Be decisive, calm and businesslike tonight (do not cry or beg ... it's not effective and will only be viewed as weakness). 

Write up a list of talking points for tonight detailing what you need her immediate agreement to: (e.g., texts, NC, IC for her, no more secret communication with another man). None of it is negotiable.

To set the tone, it's ok to inform her that your bags are packed. Distancing yourself from her is not to punish her, but to protect you from an emotionally abusive/manipulative person.

If she's not in love or inappropriately obsessed with the OM, she should immediately chose her husband. Make sure she understands that although you love her, you will not stay in a marriage with secrets and disrespect, that this is a one time offer - she will never get another chance to save her marriage.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Take her outside and build two separate fires in fire pits. Ask her to keep enough attention on BOTH fires to have them equally roaring along nicely.
Let her figure out that it’s nearly impossible - one will always suffer and burn out. The one that gets more attention burns brighter/longer.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Robert22205 said:


> Have you asked to see their texts? Did she delete them already?
> Ask her tonight if she called or texted the OM and discussed your 'ultimatum'.
> 
> Be decisive, calm and businesslike tonight (do not cry or beg ... it's not effective and will only be viewed as weakness).
> ...


I would adjust this to read...

if she doesn’t wish to agree to the terms of a healthy marriage by committing to it and nurturing the marriage and not the affair... then SHE leaves immediately with the ONE bag you packed for her.

SHE leaves if she needs to continue communicating with the distraction (wedge) in your marriage!

has she sent him ANY money? Ask her! Keep an eye on your money - consider separating accounts. Make sure she has access to very little money at this point!


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Robert22205 said:


> Have you asked to see their texts? Did she delete them already?
> Be decisive, calm and businesslike tonight (do not cry or beg ... it's not effective and will only be viewed as weakness)


I'd have a laptop handy with Dr. Fone (or its equivalent) loaded on it.
Tell her she's giving up her phone or you are done.
Run the phone and see what is on it.
Make multiple copies of the texts and secure them in a safe place.


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@Ca Firefighter How does she know you are "too controlling?" Did someone tell her you are too controlling? Her boy friend/brother, perhaps?


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Well apparently she has told at least one daughter the gave her an ultimatum. She thinks it blown out of proportion. I filled her in on the truth and she thinks a counselor should decide on NC. I just told her it hard to stopping drinking when there is beer in the refrigerator. Mom has a serious addiction and with NC if nothing going should be an easy choice. She needs serious detoxification. I told my daughter I gave my mom a choice to see who she loves more. A man she never spent one second with in her life or me. A real brother is some you shared a childhood and life with, not just some DNA. Mom is trying to save him, it was her mother the put him out for adoption not her.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

At least one daughter has a boundary.
What was the response from your wife on that ultimatum.

I get the feeling all you’ve done is words. It’s time to start implementing action... consequences if she isn’t being willing to participate on a level that shows she is eliminating him completely and focusing on the family unit.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Beach123 said:


> At least one daughter has a boundary.
> What was the response from your wife on that ultimatum.
> 
> I get the feeling all you’ve done is words. It’s time to start implementing action... consequences if she isn’t being willing to participate on a level that shows she is eliminating him completely and focusing on the family unit.


She was in shock. It is my brother that not fair. I gave her until tonight to make a decision. She getting our daughters involved. This is not about control it is about choices. It seems like a no brainer to me. Yes there has to be consequences.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Ca Firefighter said:


> She was in shock. It is my brother that not fair. I gave her until tonight to make a decision. She getting our daughters involved. This is not about control it is about choices. It seems like a no brainer to me. Yes there has to be consequences.


Here is more nice guy... Again... 

Look it is wrong for her to do this with the kids? Has you whole marriage been like this? 

If your Daughter is upset, then she is upset. Believe me when they get older they can understand more. 

Like many have said, she stops or you file for divorce, do you have the balls to do that? 

You need to do shock and awe of you are toast, it could be that you are toast already...


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

She should NOT be putting your daughter in the middle!

put your foot down! She doesn’t need until tonight to spin and respond the web she is creating!

either she wants her brother (OM) or she wants the marriage/family!

you seem to not have a firm grip on a boundary and drawing the line! WHY does your wife get ANY say in screwing over the family any more than she already has?

tell her get out if she won’t stop right now! Go pack her ONE bag in case she doesn’t choose you right away!


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

Don't let your wife re-write things to your daughters! You need to make sure you are VERY clear (like you have been) what is going on.
I would want to see ALL of the texts --- that would ALSO prove from HER to YOU that it isn't an EA (but we all know it is and she will either say "I deleted them all" (not true) or no because you are controlling....).

Good luck tonight.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

I'm sorry that your wife is not choosing you. NC is reasonable (since it's only temporary). 

However, since she admitted that she can't stop (i.e., she's addicted to him) her objections and resistance is expected.

People with nothing to hide - hide nothing. Resistance to transparency (access to the previous texts) is evidence that there's something in the texts that she's ashamed to disclose or if you read the texts you'll insist on NC forever.

Any action other than an immediate 'yes' (getting the daughters involved, asking the counselor to recommend NC, delay to think about it) is your wife choosing the OM over her husband.

Did she contact the OM too?


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Ca Firefighter said:


> She was in shock. It is my brother that not fair. I gave her until tonight to make a decision. She getting our daughters involved. This is not about control it is about choices. It seems like a no brainer to me. Yes there has to be consequences.


This is not going well, man. Even if she grudgingly gives him up, she’ll resent you for it forever. Or she’ll just hide it better and justify it to herself because it’s a sibling.

Stop drawing lines in the sand for her to jump over with glee, just so you draw another line.

Try a different strategy.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Since she didn’t OFFER to focus more on the family (you) and decided to wait and decide tonight... she essentially is checked out!

you’re going to need swift AND harsh consequences for her behavior! Do NOT allow her to blame you!!!!

your options aren’t good - expect her to choose the OM (her brother).


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

I think the fact that she is using delay tactics shows she’s not interested in your marriage. You should NEVER have to beg anyone to love you.

if she isn’t showing 150% interest in repair this damage she’s done to the marriage and family - then make sure she leaves the house as soon as the conversation ends.

she’s treating you like crap. And you need to start DOING things to show her this is completely unacceptable!

time for HER to be shocked! Stand firm when she delays any decision. Make that decision FOR HER if needed!
Do not show any sign of weakness!

then call the brothers wife and let her know exactly what has been going on - she has a right to know too.


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## Oldtimer (May 25, 2018)

Geez bro, I don’t know if your wife is NA or not, but I do know in our culture how important family is. Unfortunately in this situation, it blows my mind to see the ends that she’s going through to gaslight you. I think in her mind she’s not doing anything wrong, but she’s got to be brought back down to earth.

I wouldn’t piss around being Mr. nice guy, give her divorce papers, make sure everyone that counts is aware of what’s going on and why. You have until the divorce is finalized to change your mind. I would also go PI and find out what was being said in their correspondence. In my mind it’s just too flirty. Consider this, what would happen physically if you lived close to this guy? 

Christ, she’s rewriting your situation and trying to bring your daughters into it to reinforce her justification of her EA.

This is just my opinion, for you to take or leave. I wish you well.

on another note, entirely nothing to do with your wife, I’m jealous. My hair used to be past my waist until I got older. Thought I would look pretty cool as an elder with flowing white braids lol, unfortunately not to be. I no shave my head.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

@Ca Firefighter, how did it go with your wife last night?


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Thanks for all the thoughts. She has counseling scheduled at 4:00 pm today. I also reached out to a counselor that specializes in Latino, Hispanic and Native Americans. Our talks are more constructive. We have had 42 years together and travelled the world. Divorce is rushing it. I spoke to a close friend that been thru this. His words you wife is a mama bear and nothing you can say or do will change that. She protecting a cub. In fact she doesn’t want to hear a damn thing from you. You are in a no win situation. So talk to a counselor to get a professional opinion. Believe me you will lose your family. I am glad counseling begins today. The OM acts like he is so upstanding. I’ll always be here for you sis. I repeated that to my wife and said “just like he is planning to leave his wife. She spends to much money and is to self centered”! ( his words not mine) Zero integrity I can only slowly show her what a douche bag this pretender is. Both of our daughters (30 yo and 37 yo) believes he going to asking for money soon. 
Trash talking about your partner is a sign of an emotional affair. Speaking negatively about your partner to someone else and they offer a listening ear, it is crossing the line of respect in your marriage.


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## jlg07 (Feb 24, 2017)

So, make sure you have your finances protected so that SHE can't spend YOUR money on him.
Also, what about hiring a PI to investigate this guy and REALLY find out what is going on with him and his wife?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Ca Firefighter said:


> Thanks for all the thoughts. She has counseling scheduled at 4:00 pm today. I also reached out to a counselor that specializes in Latino, Hispanic and Native Americans. Our talks are more constructive. We have had 42 years together and travelled the world. Divorce is rushing it. I spoke to a close friend that been thru this. His words you wife is a mama bear and nothing you can say or do will change that. She protecting a cub. In fact she doesn’t want to hear a damn thing from you. You are in a no win situation. So talk to a counselor to get a professional opinion. Believe me you will lose your family. I am glad counseling begins today. The OM acts like he is so upstanding. I’ll always be here for you sis. I repeated that to my wife and said “just like he is planning to leave his wife. She spends to much money and is to self centered”! ( his words not mine) Zero integrity I can only slowly show her what a douche bag this pretender is. Both of our daughters (30 yo and 37 yo) believes he going to asking for money soon.
> Trash talking about your partner is a sign of an emotional affair. Speaking negatively about your partner to someone else and they offer a listening ear, it is crossing the line of respect in your marriage.


You are way past that. She has been trashing you for a while. 

Here is the deal, you are not too soon to file for divorce. How can you actually stand the lack of respect that she is demonstrating toward you. 

It is your life, but like I and others have said, strong decisive action MIGHT wake her up. 

Good luck, maybe it will work out for you...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Ca Firefighter said:


> Thanks for all the thoughts. She has counseling scheduled at 4:00 pm today. I also reached out to a counselor that specializes in Latino, Hispanic and Native Americans. Our talks are more constructive. We have had 42 years together and travelled the world. Divorce is rushing it. I spoke to a close friend that been thru this. His words you wife is a mama bear and nothing you can say or do will change that. She protecting a cub. In fact she doesn’t want to hear a damn thing from you. You are in a no win situation. So talk to a counselor to get a professional opinion. Believe me you will lose your family. I am glad counseling begins today. The OM acts like he is so upstanding. I’ll always be here for you sis. I repeated that to my wife and said “just like he is planning to leave his wife. She spends to much money and is to self centered”! ( his words not mine) Zero integrity I can only slowly show her what a douche bag this pretender is. Both of our daughters (30 yo and 37 yo) believes he going to asking for money soon.
> Trash talking about your partner is a sign of an emotional affair. Speaking negatively about your partner to someone else and they offer a listening ear, it is crossing the line of respect in your marriage.


You're putting her into a corner and into a win/lose situation - and you know she's not likely going to back down.

And yet simultaneously you're putting yourself into a win/lose situation and yet not willing to either back down, divorce, or continue as-is. So you literally cannot do anything except complain - which isn't working.

You can't simultaneously put her in a situation where you know she isn't going to back down, and be in a situation where you refuse to walk away or change your strategy. All that means is you are going to lose.

If you're going to play the brinksmanship game, you need to be willing to walk away. If you're not, she's just going to call your bluff. Sure, she's acting like a teenager here - but all you're doing is pushing her towards him more, and she'll be even less willing to admit she was wrong about him if the time comes to it.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Well that’s all well and good but the counseling is no magic wand - even IF she is willing to change and listen to reasonable guidance - it takes time.

and it shows that YOU aren’t taking ANY action... which still looks weak - so expect to get more crap from her.

she IS being mean and disrespectful! DO some things to help YOURSELF!

talk means nothing at this critical point. She must get scared she is gonna lose her whole family if she’s gonna wake up to what she has created.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Contact that wife TODAY and expose what’s happening! Like NOW!


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## anchorwatch (Mar 5, 2012)

@Ca Firefighter, I agree, get a PI, and do a background check on him!

If you can't afford it try these cheaper methods yourself ... 

DYI background checks and 6 ways to check if someone was in military service

Best


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Marduk said:


> You're putting her into a corner and into a win/lose situation - and you know she's not likely going to back down.
> 
> And yet simultaneously you're putting yourself into a win/lose situation and yet not willing to either back down, divorce, or continue as-is. So you literally cannot do anything except complain - which isn't working.
> 
> ...


I just really disagree.

He should want her to pick him and the marriage or I would want out of the marriage.

What she is doing with the brother is an affair, ok emotional right now as far as we know. 

I would want to put her in a position where she would have to make a decision.

Is that how you work in romantic relationships, make it easy for someone to pick you even when they are the one that are behaving badly??? 

I guess I am just an ugly American. Because for me, you love me and only me, or you are gone. You want to be with me and only me or you are gone. 

I am not sure I am understanding this concept...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

BluesPower said:


> I just really disagree.
> 
> He should want her to pick him and the marriage or I would want out of the marriage.


She's already not picked him and the marriage.



> What she is doing with the brother is an affair, ok emotional right now as far as we know.


I'm actually not sure this one is an EA. I am sure it's inappropriate and I am sure that she has been deceptive, though. So that's where my focus would be.



> I would want to put her in a position where she would have to make a decision.


I agree. However she does not have to make a decision. She can have her newfound sibling and she can have her husband. He's already said he won't walk away. So by definition, she doesn't have to choose. 

She already knows he is in pain. She doesn't care.
She already knows it's inappropriate. She doesn't care.

And yet, here he is. Her back is up and she won't give in because 'long lost brother.' She's a mamma bear. She's not going to give in protecting on her poor little newfound cub/sibling against the mean husband. She's going to keep pushing that 'brother' card over and over again.



> Is that how you work in romantic relationships, make it easy for someone to pick you even when they are the one that are behaving badly???


No, how I try to work is win/win or no deal. Either we both want this, or it's over. It's a choice. I tried it this way: I tried to beg, I cried, I pleaded. Nothing worked. I tried to live with it, and it nearly killed me. So I did the opposite - I did what she did. I was gone a lot, I prepared to divorce, I got really fit, and made it clear not only that I could walk away, but that I was getting ready to. And if it was ok for her to be texting some guy about our marriage and lying about it, then so would I.

And that changed everything.



> I guess I am just an ugly American. Because for me, you love me and only me, or you are gone. You want to be with me and only me or you are gone.
> 
> I am not sure I am understanding this concept...


I'm with you on the outcome. Again, brinksmanship only works if you're actually willing to pull the trigger. Otherwise it's just a bluff, and once they call it once, they'll never believe your bluffs again.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Since he said he will always be there for her - call him up... tell him she’s on her way over with her bag packed! Then send her to him! Seriously!

And we have no idea what her motive is for seeing the therapist today - she needs to say out loud she wants to fight to fix the damage she has caused!


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

After 42 good years, I understand why you want to avoid a nuclear option. 

However, I think you should attend the IC initially in order to ensure the counselor gets all the facts straight. Otherwise, she'll omit her obsessive behavior and make you look like a jerk. The counselor will validate her behavior and she'll come home saying she's going to continue contact with the OM.

So is my understanding correct that you believe she will forfeit her 42 year marriage rather than go 90 days with NC (and counseling)? 

Her choice is not really between you and the OM - but rather a temporary 90 day NC (and IC) vs loosing her marriage as well as disrupting family harmony with her daughters and grandchildren. 

You need to read their text message exchange to figure out how this guy got into her head. IMO, there's a good chance she has issues with her marriage (resentment, regret, anger) that conversations with the OM brought to the surface.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

I agree - you definitely need to be in on that first counseling appt!


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Robert22205 said:


> After 42 good years, I understand why you want to avoid a nuclear option.
> 
> However, I think you should attend the IC initially in order to ensure the counselor gets all the facts straight. Otherwise, she'll omit her obsessive behavior and make you look like a jerk. The counselor will validate her behavior and she'll come home saying she's going to continue contact with the OM.
> 
> ...


It mainly phone or FaceTime very little paper trail.


Beach123 said:


> I think the fact that she is using delay tactics shows she’s not interested in your marriage. You should NEVER have to beg anyone to love you.
> 
> if she isn’t showing 150% interest in repair this damage she’s done to the marriage and family - then make sure she leaves the house as soon as the conversation ends.
> 
> ...


His wife is a ding bat and would never believe anything I told her. She backs them speaking 5 hours a day because he was an adoptee. They are family finding themselves and making up for lost time. It is all ******** because he doesn’t care to meet his father or other half sister. What about family? They basically have an affair of the hearts. It not physical as they are 2,000 miles apart. They both are living a lie, but it feeds their egos. Time will tell. It is the same argument he is my brother, nothing going on. I straight out told I would buy her a ticket and take her to the airport. I asked her does she want her freedom we can divorce I am okay with it. We had 42 great years. She assures me nothing going on yet cries over NC. Obviously she doesn’t contact him around me. All other aspects of our relationship is very good. No doubt I hurt over the matter, but not as much as a divorce would be. I have to let a calmer mind prevail. She did the intake for counseling today. It is a start, but she will only tell the counselor what she wants him to hear. My only hope is she get a different angle and comes around. Like all addictions it a day at a time. Rome was not built in a day! Keep the posts coming.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Sorry to let you in on addiction. When any addict understands they are causing harm the first step is to admit it’s a problem. She hasn’t admitted it’s problem.
Next up is to quit actively participating in that addiction. She hasn’t stopped participating (willingly) yet.

you have a much bigger problem than you think you do.

at times you look like you are defending her - and other times you seem mad. Pick a lane - you can’t have it both ways and have a successful marriage at this juncture.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Did she share what she/they discussed at her first session?


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Never refer to the OM as her half brother (it tends to validate their relationship in terms of something it's not). Simply refer to him by his first name. The less attention you call to their artifical brother sister relationship (or the OM) the better. 

Stay on the high ground/’facts’ (the facts clearly justify a 90 day detox period). Stick with the facts and avoid speculating that he may ask for money or sex in the future. If you get her to detox (as well as IC), then the sex and money issues may disappear. And if not, you can fight that issue later.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Robert22205 said:


> Did she share what she/they discussed at her first session?


It was an I take session then there is a referral. Now it hurry up and wait.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Based on your posts your wife consistently characterizes your objection to the OM as you being: controlling, overreacting, and/or jealous.

In order to make sure you are prepared to state your case (at any time with anyone), write up and memorize your story. Rehearse it. You can then draw on parts of your story as needed.

For example, the discussion will probably always start with some statement or question that you are: controlling, overreacting, and/or jealous. Consider replying (or writing up) with something like this (in your own words):

1 – I’m sorry my wife feels this way but nothing could be further from the truth. We raised our kids to believe that family is the most important thing and for 42 years I have never objected to my wife contacting her siblings; nor have I ever objected to her friendships. 

Furthermore, in what way is requesting a 90 day break from a stranger’s influence: controlling, overacting, and/or jealous. 

2 - After 42 years of being a hardworking and loyal husband and father – I’m shocked and saddened that she would vilify me like this to our family and friends. After 42 years, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that her sudden negative attitude towards me coincides with her texting and talking 5 hours a day with “name”. 

Up until recently, I though we had a marriage and family that others admired. 

3 – I’m concerned that their relationship is toxic in that he somehow encourages my previously ‘happy’ wife to be dissatisfied with her life/marriage. Consequently, their toxic relationship threatens my marriage (and therefore our family) so I’m not going to sit quietly by and see my family destroyed.

If my wife is dissatisfied with her life or marriage, she should be speaking with me and/or a trained counselor.

4 – First, describe how your relationship is normally. Then list the facts describing in detail how her behavior toward you suddenly changed during the first month of contact:

- Pulling away: give lots of examples and note the frequency (daily?)

- Criticism of you: lots of examples and note the frequency (daily?)

- Volume of texts and hours on the phone

- Admitting she can’t stop

5 – Finally, state that you interpret her refusal to detox for 90 days as evidence that the relationship is obsessive and therefore, not healthy to your wife, to you, or your children and grandchildren. 

And taken together with her statement that she can’t stop, you view her reluctance to share their texts as evidence that there’s something in the texts that she’s ashamed for her husband or family to read.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

If she refuses to turn over texts, a plan B (that would be impossible for her to refuse) is to have her IC review the texts to determine if: 

She discussed inappropriate intimate/personal topics with a stranger
She has personal/marriage issues that she should discuss with a licensed professional
The OM’s advice etc is toxic, not constructive, encourages her to be dissatisfied
There’s anything in the texts that a husband would be angry at or object to
And for the therapist to report his conclusion to you (as well as her).


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Ca Firefighter said:


> It mainly phone or FaceTime very little paper trail.
> 
> His wife is a ding bat and would never believe anything I told her. She backs them speaking 5 hours a day because he was an adoptee. They are family finding themselves and making up for lost time. It is all ******** because he doesn’t care to meet his father or other half sister. What about family? They basically have an affair of the hearts. It not physical as they are 2,000 miles apart. They both are living a lie, but it feeds their egos. Time will tell. It is the same argument he is my brother, nothing going on. I straight out told I would buy her a ticket and take her to the airport. I asked her does she want her freedom we can divorce I am okay with it. We had 42 great years. She assures me nothing going on yet cries over NC. Obviously she doesn’t contact him around me. All other aspects of our relationship is very good. No doubt I hurt over the matter, but not as much as a divorce would be. I have to let a calmer mind prevail. She did the intake for counseling today. It is a start, but she will only tell the counselor what she wants him to hear. My only hope is she get a different angle and comes around. Like all addictions it a day at a time. Rome was not built in a day! Keep the posts coming.


You really are between a rock and a hard place.
While I understand not going nuclear, you still have to maintain and walk a firm no-nonsense resolve.
When you brought up divorce, what was her reaction? Panic? Sorrow? Indifference?
I am in total agreement that she will slant the information she gives the counselor to feed her narrative? Were you present at the intake? Did you have any input? Did you or her reach out to this counselor? Was there a vetting process for his selection? Was that from you or her? These questions, IMO, are pertinent because of how the "Issue" is framed.
Is it that "She is struggling how to deal with her newly found relative" or "My Husband is being totally unreasonable....?"
If this guy is any good: 1) He's going to see she's off the rails and 2) He is probably going to want you in (either in a separate or joint session) to get the other side.
How are the Daughters interacting with Mom? Are they typically "Daddy's Girls" or do they tend to side with Mom? Are they being passive, putting pressure on her, or siding with her? If they "Take it" to Mom in the right way and do not uphold her behavior, this could be to your benefit.
I still would recommend getting her phone and running a recovery program on it. I would suggest any type of monitoring that you can implement, given your situation. I would also see if you can get a quantity discount on VAR's and install one incognito in every possible spot that she talks/facetimes in the house.
You also need to do what I would describe as a hybrid 180. You need to detach from her in a visible manner. Go find your own interests. Exhibit some of the behaviors she models to you. You need to be indifferent, yet polite. However, you need to monitor her like a hawk, while documenting everything. Hopefully, the kids separate from her in a similar manner. She needs to experience the rift she is creating within her own family, as well as the tension and discord that her actions have and are causing. This is one of the many consequences she needs to experience.
I would also recommend tightening up her and the family's resources as much as possible, in case this guy is in it for the financial shakedown.
Pain compliance may be your best avenue of approach at this point.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Whenever she refers to you as: controlling, overreacting, being jealous, being unfair because he's my brother ....calling it puppy love or harmless, or anything that attacks you or blames you:

Start your response with: I love you and therefore I'm sorry you feel that way, but ....(and pull something applicable from your story script). 

Stay on script and keep repeating your fact based story (and it's impact on your marriage) over and over until she realizes how toxic contact with the OM is. 

IMO, if she is 100% NC, it will sink in sooner than later.

BTW: based on my experience and the experience of others, an experienced therapist would ask her to go 100% NC while you two are resolving this. If they don't, then it's a red flag.


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## BarbedFenceRider (Mar 30, 2018)

As in the Fire Dept. (retired paramedic FF myself!) You get to see people at their worst daily and in context of interpersonal relationships. You are keenly aware of what is healthy and not. Your head and your heart are saying NOT. I'm glad to see you identified it and called it out. My wife did the same and denied and denied. The kicker to the **** show was when I was loading the car to move out. Then the aha moment began. 
Emotional affairs are nasty. You live in roomate status at best, usually with intimacy given as a reward for pavlov bell ringing when she wants something done or given to her. 
I equated my position as a old piece of furniture in the house. Not respected, not cared for and just comfortable enough to not get rid of....
The fast and easy way to stop limmerance in it's tracks is to cut it's funding. She is on the internet...STOP paying for it. She has billions of minutes of cell phone time. Cancel the contract. The healing library has some great 180 lessons to read. You are not just furniture, you are one half of a joined soul in marriage...Until you decide to quit. You cannot control her actions, just yours. Live life how you want it. And you may just find that she is not part of the big equation anymore...


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Robert22205 said:


> Based on your posts your wife consistently characterizes your objection to the OM as you being: controlling, overreacting, and/or jealous.
> 
> In order to make sure you are prepared to state your case (at any time with anyone), write up and memorize your story. Rehearse it. You can then draw on parts of your story as needed.
> 
> ...


Well she guards her phone, did see all the texts are deleted. I’m drawing a letter not verify EA or GSA rather to document and show me kids true and quite inappropriate behavior from a marriage women. Her contact has gone from 5 hours - 7 days a week to one hour a week. It a start. Okay i get they have shared dna. In fact so does a chimpanzee 98%. I told her any discussion about me or our relationship is off limits. So she said she has told him. Perhaps the counselor can make a break thru. Thanks again for a good level headed response.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Robert22205 said:


> Whenever she refers to you as: controlling, overreacting, being jealous, being unfair because he's my brother ....calling it puppy love or harmless, or anything that attacks you or blames you:
> 
> Start your response with: I love you and therefore I'm sorry you feel that way, but ....(and pull something applicable from your story script).
> 
> ...


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

When does she talk to him? At your home or when she's babysitting? 

If at home, place some VARs around the house to identify what they talk about (e.g, money, flirty, or her marriage issues). If she won't tell you directly what's wrong with you or her marriage, then you'll have to find out yourself.

There is software that can recover deleted texts.

Deleting texts and guarding her phone is evidence that there's something she's ashamed of letting you see or there's something she knows you will object to - either motive makes the texts inappropriate for a married person. 

Since she notified the OM that you and her marriage are off limits, it's clear that you and her marriage were a popular topic of discussion. His earlier comment that "he had her back" is also more consistent with an ongoing conversation about you (as opposed to just your email).

Since you know that the OM complained about his marriage, my guess is that she complained about her marriage/you (he was sympathetic and mirrored her feelings) which created a strong emotional bond and a feeling of trust on her part. Unfortunately, a feeling that he 'understands' her like nobody else does (including her husband).

Mirroring is a therapy technique used by counselors to get the patients trust and encourage talk. 

However, in the hands of someone that is manipulative (or just plain stupid) it can do a lot of harm because what your wife needs is a constructive solution for her issues.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Has your sex life changed at all since she started talking to him?

does she work?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Ca Firefighter said:


> It mainly phone or FaceTime very little paper trail.
> 
> His wife is a ding bat and would never believe anything I told her. She backs them speaking 5 hours a day because he was an adoptee. They are family finding themselves and making up for lost time. It is all ******** because he doesn’t care to meet his father or other half sister. What about family? They basically have an affair of the hearts. It not physical as they are 2,000 miles apart. They both are living a lie, but it feeds their egos. Time will tell. It is the same argument he is my brother, nothing going on. I straight out told I would buy her a ticket and take her to the airport. I asked her does she want her freedom we can divorce I am okay with it. We had 42 great years. She assures me nothing going on yet cries over NC. Obviously she doesn’t contact him around me. All other aspects of our relationship is very good. No doubt I hurt over the matter, but not as much as a divorce would be. I have to let a calmer mind prevail. She did the intake for counseling today. It is a start, but she will only tell the counselor what she wants him to hear. My only hope is she get a different angle and comes around. Like all addictions it a day at a time. Rome was not built in a day! Keep the posts coming.


Either that or his wife is thinking: "Thank the Lord! There's someone else to listen to his never ending BS! Yeah! That's it! You speak to him for five hours a day, every day, his "sister!" Great! That's five hours when I don't have to listen to him whining on and on and on!"


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Ca Firefighter said:


> Her contact has gone from 5 hours - 7 days a week to one hour a week.


While the fact that she is hiding phone/deleting texts is concerning, that is a significant decrease in time that she is spending communicating with him. (If it can be verified.)
While there is still need for concern, perhaps the newness has worn off and she has decided that she wants him to "Spare her the Drama."
I'd still take some steps to monitor, but perhaps ratchet back the GSA/EA conversation.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

The only thing your wife will understand from you is divorce papers. It is the 2x4 she needs to wake up.

It will show her how her actions have hurt your relationship.

You don’t have to continue with it if she turns 180. I don’t think she would stop contact with him even then.


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

Tdbo said:


> While the fact that she is hiding phone/deleting texts is concerning, that is a significant decrease in time that she is spending communicating with him. (If it can be verified.)
> While there is still need for concern, perhaps the newness has worn off and she has decided that she wants him to "Spare her the Drama."
> I'd still take some steps to monitor, but perhaps ratchet back the GSA/EA conversation.


Agreed also telling her that I am telling the OM wife he said he was going to divorce her in two years, she spends to much money and she is self centered did not go well. If only I could post her look of shock. You can’t do that! You should not have to lose a family to gain one. Tomorrow I am going to post some of the most valuable information for anyone dealing with a family member addiction behavior. It important to understand where the addictive behavior stems from. Truly great information the addicts behavior is not controllable unless the addicts wants help. And even as much as it hurts you, one must not take it personally.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Your wife seems to hold all the power.

what’s your plan to change that power dynamic? Has your wife changed at all to seem like she wants to make you/the marriage a priority again?

I’d put nest cameras around the area where she spends time on her phone - you can watch and hear in real time (what she’s doing/saying). They only cost around $100 and you need wifi connection/plug in access. This way you can tell what is happening when she thinks you aren’t watching her.

if she finds it - who cares... she isn’t earning trust and you need to see what’s really happening.


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## Tdbo (Sep 8, 2019)

Ca Firefighter said:


> Agreed also telling her that I am telling the OM wife he said he was going to divorce her in two years, she spends to much money and she is self centered did not go well. If only I could post her look of shock. You can’t do that! You should not have to lose a family to gain one. Tomorrow I am going to post some of the most valuable information for anyone dealing with a family member addiction behavior. It important to understand where the addictive behavior stems from. Truly great information the addicts behavior is not controllable unless the addicts wants help. And even as much as it hurts you, one must not take it personally.


That sounds like a decent plan.
However, I thought you said that you were played off to the OM's wife as being somewhat jealous and irrational.
Without a text, audio/video recording, etc it is merely hearsay.
You still need to get her phone and run a recovery program on it.
A text with him saying that would be powerful, and would change the dynamic considerably.
Even though she* may* be simmering down a tad, you still need to get some monitoring on her to keep a handle on her.
You also need to change the dynamic. You need to take charge of your relationship, and she has some work to do to show that she is trustworthy, a "Safe" partner, and that she can properly discern a situation without going off the deep end.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

Someone may be able to advise you with respect to accessing your wife's phone texts, as well as her phone call log showing the: number she contacted, the date, and for how long they talked.

Is her phone/plan under your name?
Who is your cell phone service provider?
What is the make & model of her phone?

Do you two share a laptop or desktop?


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## Ca Firefighter (May 14, 2020)

I figured the phone out. Only 1 contact in a week. That surely is better than 5 hours a day, 7 days a week. Still waiting for the counseling to start. We will see if NC is on the board. He been going to counseling not sure what going there. Their sibling relationship is a drug to deal with their crappy childhoods.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Ca Firefighter said:


> I figured the phone out. Only 1 contact in a week. That surely is better than 5 hours a day, 7 days a week. Still waiting for the counseling to start. We will see if NC is on the board. He been going to counseling not sure what going there. Their sibling relationship is a drug to deal with their crappy childhoods.


Are you saying one phone call contact or text in a week?

And you know she is not skyping or zooming with him on the computer?


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## Evinrude58 (Jun 16, 2014)

Her going from 5 hrs a day to one hour a week....... that is HIGHLY unlikely.

if that IS the case, and you are 100% certain that is the case...... I think you are headed in the right direction.

On a positive note: you have been this lady’s best friend for 42 yrs. if you remove yourself from her life suddenly, I think she will start to see the light and be drawn back mentally to you.

However, she’s proven herself to be deceptive already. My money would be on another mode of communication that you don’t know about.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

_*Their sibling relationship is a drug to deal with their crappy childhoods*_.
I hope I'm wrong, at her age and after 40 years with you, plus she has other siblings - so I think you may be blindsided. 

From the posts there's evidence that they lean on each other to complain about their spouses. And consequently she feels he understands her in a way that nobody else does. You're not the first spouse to get blindsided. Understand that you may in fact be the 'perfect' spouse - but don't assume that she sees you or her marriage in the same way. Crappy childhoods can distort how people relate to and view the world around them.


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## Robert22205 (Jun 6, 2018)

She admitted to being addicted. So you have reason to remain skeptical. 

Plus it's difficult to believe she can go from 5 hours per day to just once a week. 

Under the circumstances, it's likely she is white knuckling (it's temporary) or the OM has advised her on how to contact him secretly.

1 - Can she face time him on a laptop or desktop while she's babysitting?

2 - How long was the single contact last week?

3 - When did she make contact (after she argued with you? or after you left the house?)

4 - If her phone auto logs into and takes place over a home wifi, then I believe (perhaps others can weight in) the call will not appear on your phone bill.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

You have NO leverage without consequences that hurt her.
Pain is a big motivator to change. She won’t change if she doesn’t stand to lose a lot.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

They have probably gone underground. Meh. For me, it's clear - if my spouse were engaging in an EA with his sibling, I would simply tell him that I can't be married to someone who is committing incest.

That is what it is: incest.

Name it. Own your feelings about it. Do you want a wife who defends committing incest?

Don't try to reason with her. Just tell her that you won't stay married to a woman in an incestuous affair. It should appall her; it should shock her. She has to recognize how the outside world views what she is doing. People naturally recoil from it. If she wants to free herself of the label, she needs to own her behavior and stay NC.


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## Beach123 (Dec 6, 2017)

Have you installed a camera inside the home yet to monitor what she is actually doing when you’re not watching her?


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

Unfortunately there are many ways of making untraceable calls that bypass the phone network.


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