# Open Relationship: I want a hall pass.



## Conceal.Dont.Feel (Apr 20, 2015)

*Do I dare ask my LD wife for an open relationship? Can this ever work?*

So I don’t get berated by those of you who look up former threads, here’s a brief summary of my history. 50 Y.O. HD man married 27 years, lived blinded to my HD/LD mismatch until 7 months ago when a 33 Y.O. female employee shared her frustrations that her husband was not satisfying her strong sexual appetite. The concept of HD women disoriented me. It brought my repressed sexual frustration to the surface. It opened a Pandora’s box. The conversations crossed the boundary of boss/employee and I propositioned my employee. She rejected me. I apologized. She forgot about it. I became obsessed with her. 

I had “the talk” with my wife for months, trying to get her to be something she is not. While she has tried to take steps to satisfy me, they are miniscule in my eyes. I have struggled for 7 months coping with the obsession and my waning desires for my wife. She has recently shut down communicating about this topic. I love my wife. I don’t desire her. I don’t want her to be unhappy. I don’t find her attractive. Our lives are intertwined. Divorce is not an option!

*I am trying to justify my proposal of an open relationship thinking that just as she does not want me to try to make her something she is not, she is in turn asking me to be something I am not.

While I welcome all feedback, I would love to hear reactions from LD wives if this scenario was proposed of them. How ridiculous is this idea?*


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

How come divorce isn't an option?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Yes, why isn't divorce an option? It may be expensive, but many things worthwhile are expensive. Besides, if you still love each other, be friends afterwards, yet free to pursue satisfying relationships.

As for opening the relationship, that can have both benefits and pitfalls. First of all, she'd have to agree to the idea. And are you sure her LD isn't lack of attraction to you? Maybe she'll find inspiration and find a lover, too. If she's truly LD, this isn't likely, but it's something to consider and think about how you'd feel about that, especially after she's denied you all these years only to ramp it up with someone else.

Even if she agrees, it's no picnic for you. Finding partners ethically is a huge challenge, since you'd have to disclose that it's an open relationship (otherwise you're behaving just like a cheater) and find someone who is okay with that. Too complicated for most women to deal with, maybe even for those who are cheaters - believe me, you don't want to get involved with a cheater.

In my experience, only good, strong relationships respond well to being opened. Otherwise, if you do find someone, you'll probably form an attachment because they compare so favorably to your LD wife, and you'll become even more dissatisfied with the marriage. Then you'll probably divorce anyway because you'll know you can do better. While this isn't an unreasonable progression, it would be harder on your wife because she would expect you to stay in the marriage in exchange for her permission to seek sex elsewhere. Wouldn't it be better all around to exit cleanly, now?


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> In my experience, only good, strong relationships respond well to being opened. Otherwise, if you do find someone, you'll probably form an attachment because they compare so favorably to your LD wife, and you'll become even more dissatisfied with the marriage. Then you'll probably divorce anyway because you'll know you can do better. While this isn't an unreasonable progression, it would be harder on your wife because she would expect you to stay in the marriage in exchange for her permission to seek sex elsewhere. Wouldn't it be better all around to exit cleanly, now?


This is my understanding as well. Open relationships only work if both people are already happy with each other. Otherwise they amplify resentments.

Have you tried counseling?


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## TAMAT (Jun 20, 2015)

Conceal,

Open relationships often turn out horribly for the man, your W may only be LD for you as you may find out if you open this door. You might, and I highly stress might, be able to separate sex from emotion and attachment, your W is very much less likely to be able to do so, and may end up in love with someone else.

Many older men are blinded by their attraction to younger women and misinterpret friendliness with attraction on the part of the woman, you are lucky you did not get fired, sued, beat up or acquired a permanent black mark in your industry. 

Tamat


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

You feel that the effort your wife had shown for a little while wasn't nearly enough and she has now shut down conversations about sex. Now you think that an open relationship might be the way to stay married to her but also have sex and not be celibate.

Is sex meaningless or meaningful? This is where I think some men might not be explaining themselves as well as they should. If it is meaningless, then yes your wife feels as if her whole person boiled down to an available body. So explaining that:
1. You have a strong need for sex at X times per week minimum. Wife won't meet this.
2. You have a strong need to feel your sex partner not only desires sex too, but also desires sex WITH you. Wife won't meet this either.
3. You love her and want to stay with her but cannot go without #'s 1 and 2.
4. You therefore propose and open marriage.

Your marriage is in the crapper whether you ask for an open relationship or ask for a divorce. Your relationship is unsustainable as is. 

Asking for an open marriage and stating your case might wake her up to the dangerous places the sexless ness has brought the marriage. 

Or it might piss her off so much she throws you out. 

Either way, you will end up happier so I see it as a win/win.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

Anon Pink said:


> You feel that the effort your wife had shown for a little while wasn't nearly enough and she has now shut down conversations about sex. Now you think that an open relationship might be the way to stay married to her but also have sex and not be celibate.
> 
> Is sex meaningless or meaningful? This is where I think some men might not be explaining themselves as well as they should. If it is meaningless, then yes your wife feels as if her whole person boiled down to an available body. So explaining that:
> 1. You have a strong need for sex at X times per week minimum. Wife won't meet this.
> ...


Or she might accept the proposal out of guilt and the relationship will continue to deteriorate.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> Or she might accept the proposal out of guilt and the relationship will continue to deteriorate.



Right. Leading to.....?

That's why I think it's a win win. No matter what happens eventually he will be having sex whether as a divorced man or married and with his wife. The status quo has been bombed. How they rebuild is the question.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

If YOU were the woman in question, it would lead to divorce--the smart option. But not all women are like you. Many women, like many men, will martyr themselves at the altar of marital vows, and will live with a sh!tty situation indefinitely.

ETA: which is exactly how I see asking for an open marriage when a relationship is crappy. It's avoiding the responsible thing to do (divorce) and hoping you can either get by with some side nookie while your relationship is still crap, or passive-aggressively maneuver your wife into filing divorce on YOU. Sorry, I'm in the fix it or leave it camp.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Has your wife always been LD?

How were you two when dating and the first years of marriage?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## I Don't Know (Oct 8, 2013)

Ask for an open marriage and your wife will be banging her 4th guy by the end of the night, if she is inclined to do so. You on the other hand will be.... well, using the other hand. LOL. Seriously though, it's a horrible idea.


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## Conceal.Dont.Feel (Apr 20, 2015)

I appreciate all replies and am absorbing them best I can.
To reply to a couple of common questions:
1. Why not divorce? I believe while I may be able to handle that, she could not. I don't want to hurt her. Our lives are so entangled, after 30 years being together. I want to maintain the stable family for our boys' sake, for our friends, for our extended families. I want to continue to provide for her, the household. I don't want to hurt her.
2. Has she always been LD? Yes, but early on the adventure of establishing a relationship, a romance, a home, a household, a family, a career...all took precedence. I became consumed by all of these and repressed my sexual satisfaction, or at least distracted myself with all of the above and hobbies.

Now, I have been awakened to the existence of HD women. The revelation that women can be both attractive and desire sex is earth shattering to me. Whether someone like that could desire me is the unknown, that some of you have pointed out. 

The idea of the open marriage may just be that I need to know if someone could desire me to stroke my ego.


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## Fozzy (Jul 20, 2013)

If you don't want to hurt her, I wouldn't advise pursuing an open relationship. Why not try marriage counseling instead?


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## Conceal.Dont.Feel (Apr 20, 2015)

Wanted to add that someone asked if she is LD just toward me; does she not find me attractive.

I would say that currently she does NOT find me attractive. I am learning that what she finds attractive and what I find attractive are two totally separate things. 

I am very, very visual. If a woman is petite and slim, I am attracted. If she is wearing a little makeup and perfume, I am hooked...

My wife is not at all visual. She would be attracted to the man I am (or currently am not) not how I look. Years of me staying in shape are meaningless to her.

But, as I learned that she never has desired me sexually, that is very deflating. She loves me. She doesn't desire me. I desperately need someone to desire me (or at even just to desire having sex with me).

If she would take care of herself and her body as I want her to and if she would take measures to increase her libido, I expect I would quickly and innately again desire her.


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## crossbar (Aug 25, 2011)

So, you want a hall pass huh? Yeah, that pass is usually called divorce papers. And since you want a hall pass tells me that you have someone already lined up! So, you want to cheat without technically calling it cheating.

Here's something you didn't think about. What if she agree's to this open marriage? Are you prepared to have her getting laid from other guys a HELLVA lot more than you? Because, women have an easier time getting laid than men do. You will be hard pressed to find a young heterosexual male to turn IT down. Especially if it's given to them with no strings attached. While you're sitting at the bar buy girls drinks all night long and 8 times out of 10 you're going home alone. Or your wife could be at the bar with you and some cute guy is buying her drinks and she tells you that she's going to leave with him and don't wait up. And you see your wife walk out the door with this dude's hand on her ass.

I guess you'd be cool with that, right?


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

There's nothing wrong with wanting a fulfilling sexual relationship with your wife.

But if you open your relationship to others, all I'd say is, be prepared for the inevitable divorce you'll be going through. 

There's an enormous amount of anguish either one or both of you will feel. 

If you would seriously feel nothing knowing you're coming home smelling of other women then climb into bed with your wife to sleep, if I were her I'd want to be let go ASAP. I'd go file myself the next day. I don't care how great other things are. 

I think you'll find that D will be on the table, whether you want it to be or not. What a recipe for disaster imo. Divorce at least sets you free to do what you want or need without the unnecessary hurt.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

MC. What you've posted is fantastic stuff to talk about in counseling.

Give it a shot. She will at least know your marriage is on the line and how to fix it if she wants to.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Fozzy said:


> Or she might accept the proposal out of guilt and the relationship will continue to deteriorate.


Or she might say, with some relief, "Yes, please!"

And summarily be pounded into next week by a new guy every night for the rest of your marriage.

Are you prepared for that possibility? Or do you only see it as a likelihood for yourself?

Because I've known many, many (many!) LD wives who seemed to really be interested in getting a piece of me when I got into shape.

Universal line by their husbands: "They're just not into sex any more."

When the reality was: "They're just not into sex with me any more.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Conceal.Dont.Feel said:


> Wanted to add that someone asked if she is LD just toward me; does she not find me attractive.
> 
> I would say that currently she does NOT find me attractive. I am learning that what she finds attractive and what I find attractive are two totally separate things.
> 
> ...


LOL!

Seriously, if I had a dollar for every time my wife said that to me, or my buddy's wives said it to them...

One day I woke up and noticed her drooling over some muscly schmuck on TV...

And it dawned on me that she was just sparing my feelings and trying to be the "good girl."

If I didn't want the "good girl" then I needed to trigger the "bad girl" response and not make her feel guilty about it...


> She would be attracted to the man I am (or currently am not) not how I look. Years of me staying in shape are meaningless to her.


It could very well be many other things.

Seriously... 

How often do you get hit on?



> But, as I learned that she never has desired me sexually, that is very deflating. She loves me. She doesn't desire me. I desperately need someone to desire me (or at even just to desire having sex with me).


Ok, so she was never into you to begin with?



> If she would take care of herself and her body as I want her to and if she would take measures to increase her libido, I expect I would quickly and innately again desire her.


You mean if she only became a porn star you'd be happy with her.

That isn't the key to unlocking a woman's legs, buddy.


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## Conceal.Dont.Feel (Apr 20, 2015)

marduk said:


> LOL!
> 
> It could very well be many other things.
> 
> ...


This stung a little. But that's because I have thought much about this. I rarely get hit on. That may be part of my issue. I wish I did get hit on to stroke my ego. To build my self-esteem. I assume b/c I don't often get hit on, that I am not an attractive man. I work hard at staying in shape. For 50, I think I have an above average physique. I don't know how to find out what women think of me. I work long hours in an isolated environment with minimal interaction with others, socialize very little and have few friends. For decades my focus has been on my work, my family, getting my boys prepared for college. I keep my head down and my nose clean and probably come off as unapproachable.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Fozzy said:


> If YOU were the woman in question, it would lead to divorce--the smart option. But not all women are like you. Many women, like many men, will martyr themselves at the altar of marital vows, and will live with a sh!tty situation indefinitely.
> 
> ETA: which is exactly how I see asking for an open marriage when a relationship is crappy. It's avoiding the responsible thing to do (divorce) and hoping you can either get by with some side nookie while your relationship is still crap, or passive-aggressively maneuver your wife into filing divorce on YOU. Sorry, I'm in the fix it or leave it camp.


I always forget I don't seem to be normal. 

Speaking of martyr though...



Conceal.Dont.Feel said:


> I appreciate all replies and am absorbing them best I can.
> To reply to a couple of common questions:
> 1. Why not divorce? I believe while I may be able to handle that, she could not. I don't want to hurt her. Our lives are so entangled, after 30 years being together. I want to maintain the stable family for our boys' sake, for our friends, for our extended families. I want to continue to provide for her, the household. I don't want to hurt her.
> .



I can heal the angels singing.

Conceal, you don't think she will be hurt when you ask if you can have sex with other women?

Have you read any posts by @Young at Heart? The dude was in your shoes and turned his marriage around because he had the balls to:
1. Honestly consider divorce.
2. Researched divorce, splitting assets, furnishing homes and what not. IOW, he had a PLAN.
3. Went to sex therapy with his wife.
4. Made the ultimatum that the marriage becomes a sexual one or he leaves.

God all this martyr crap gets on my nerves! You're not making anything better, so speak the hell up!


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Conceal.Dont.Feel said:


> This stung a little. But that's because I have thought much about this. I rarely get hit on. That may be part of my issue. I wish I did get hit on to stroke my ego. To build my self-esteem. I assume b/c I don't often get hit on, that I am not an attractive man. I work hard at staying in shape. For 50, I think I have an above average physique. I don't know how to find out what women think of me. I work long hours in an isolated environment with minimal interaction with others, socialize very little and have few friends. For decades my focus has been on my work, my family, getting my boys prepared for college. I keep my head down and my nose clean and probably come off as unapproachable.


Ego, man, ego. 

You need to accept the possibility that you just don't turn her crank right now but you may be able to. 

At least get rid of it as a variable.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Conceal.Dont.Feel said:


> ....1. Why not divorce? I believe while I may be able to handle that, she could not. I don't want to hurt her. Our lives are so entangled, after 30 years being together. I want to maintain the stable family for our boys' sake, for our friends, for our extended families. I want to continue to provide for her, the household. I don't want to hurt her.
> 2. Has she always been LD? Yes, but early on the adventure of establishing a relationship, a romance, a home, a household, a family, a career...all took precedence. I became consumed by all of these and repressed my sexual satisfaction, or at least distracted myself with all of the above and hobbies.
> 
> *Now, I have been awakened to the existence of HD women*. The revelation that women can be both attractive and desire sex is earth shattering to me. *Whether someone like that could desire me is the unknown, that some of you have pointed out.*
> ...





Conceal.Dont.Feel said:


> ....I would say that currently she does NOT find me attractive. I am learning that *what she finds attractive and what I find attractive are two totally separate things.
> *
> I am very, very visual. If a woman is petite and slim, I am attracted. If she is wearing a little makeup and perfume, I am hooked...
> 
> ...





Conceal.Dont.Feel said:


> ...I work hard at staying in shape. For 50, I think I have an above average physique. I don't know how to find out what women think of me. I work long hours in an isolated environment with minimal interaction with others, socialize very little and have few friends. For decades my focus has been on my work, my family, getting my boys prepared for college. I keep my head down and my nose clean and probably come off as unapproachable.


A few words of advice. Asking for a hall pass is you wanting to have your cake and eat it to. You are not mentally prepared for it as much as you might think. Your statement about wanting to be sexually desired, well that means you want a woman who will "love and lust" after you.....you want to feel emotional love. You can't have emotional love with someone besides your wife and provide your wife and kids with the things you say you want them to have.

I was in a sex starved marriage. My wife actively emotionally hurt me whenever we had sex, so she could maintain her emotional distance from me. Eventually, I decided I had had enough. I decided that I was either going to save or end our marriage.

I did a lot of reading about relationships to try to figure out how to save my marriage. Some of the best books were MW Davis, the Sex Starved Marriage, Chapman's 5 Languages of Love, Sue Johnson's Hold Me Tight, and above all Glover's No More Mr. Nice Guy. If you read those books you will begin to understand that probably the problems between you and your wife have been compounded by things you have done. You are partially responsible for your situtation.

Part of my problem was that my wife and I drifted apart and she started to actively dislike me. I felt sexually rejected and focused my energy at work where I got praise or words of affirmation, which is one of my primary love languages. I wasn't getting either touch or praise from my wife. I was working hard and late and my wife felt abandoned and unloved. I felt I was being a good provider and supporting my family. 

In Chapman's book, I discovered that my wife's key love languages are acts of service and quality time. I was hurting him most weeks by denying her what she needed to feel loved.

In Glover and Davis they both talk about getting a life and changing yourself. You claim to be in good shape, which is great, but it also sounds like you really don't have a life. For me, I started to working out, loosing weight, doing hobbies I gave up decades ago (mountain climbing, running endurance races, bicycling, shooting and reloading, backpacking. With a new lighter fit body, I started dressing better. When I threw myself into these changes, I became more interesting to both my wife and my wife's friends at her work parties. Other women found me a fascinating person and commented how lucky my wife was to have me.

Getting a life is about changing you and becoming a much more fascinating person in the eyes of your spouse. 

I also apologized to my wife for having hurt her after I figured out how I had hurt her for years. I stopped pressuring her for sex she didn't want with me and found things for me to do that brought me some happiness. I also started to provide my wife with unconditional love. She was amazed by the change and asked if she could read some of the books I had read.

I said yes, insisted that she get a complete medical blood/hormone work up, and suggested we see a sex therapist. She really didn't want to do that, as in her mind the implication was that she was broken and she didn't feel broken. I had read David Schnarch (Passionate Marriage) where he says that all aspects of marriage contain an HD and LD component. One partner may be HD for chocolate ice cream and the other hates chocolate ice cream. One partner my be HD for watching football on TV on Sunday's and Monday nights. The other partner may hate football. The point is that all marriages need to find compromises that allow them to work together. With that overview, my wife agreed to see a sex therapist.

The sex therapist asked my wife what she thought would happen if we never had sex again. My wife avoided answering, but after a while said we would probably divorce. The therapist asked me if I had thought of divorce. I said yea and had promised myself that I was going to be in a loving and sexual relationship with a woman by a certain milestone birthday. I also said that I was doing everything I could to try to save our marriage before that point in time. 

That stunned my wife, but the therapist said that was reasonable, and gave my wife enough time to figure out what she wanted as to marriage or divorce. The therapist helped my wife sort out what she really wanted. Eventually my wife decided she wanted to remain married to me. That meant she needed to become sexual with me. The therapist helped that happen.

Your mileage may very. What worked for me may not work for you. One fo the key concepts in MW Davis books is that if you change yourself and the way you treat your spouse, they will likely change the way they treat you. The choice is totally up to them, they can change or not. The change can be for the better or it can be for the worse, but it is their change. You can't force your wife to give you the love you want, but you can change the dynamic so that she will look at you differently because you have changed and she may decide she likes the new you; enough that she wants to treat you better.

Good luck to you. A Hall Pass is not going to get you what you want.

P.S. If you read the books, Get a Life, and your wife still doesn't come around, the next woman in your life will be really appreciative that you are a more fascinating person. You will also likely find a woman who desires to be with such a fascinating man. So if for not other reason, learn about relationships, learn how to give love, learn how to become a more fascinating and integrated man (as Glover would advise.)


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

I find you a bit selfish.. 

You waste 30 years of this woman's life and now you want this ? 

To me it just sounds like you're going down this road to eventually justify an affair..

I'm in shape, she isn't.. If she just did what I told her to get in shape I might be interested again in her.. 

You know you should have made time to get her in shape with you.. You should have made her part of that routine.. 

I can guess she is a stay at home mom ? Taking care of the kids and such ? You seem smart enough, I don't need to take you down the SAHM stuff..

You know maybe she needs divorce to wake her up.. It did me wonders.. 

Just remember this and get it in your head.. A woman can get d!ck ANY fvcking time they want and they can get as much as they want.. Your wife can go into any place and get a date.. Single, Divorced, Married pretending to be divorced will fvck her.. 

Just remember men CANNOT compete with women in that department.. So when you want this hall pass and you then discover she is getting more d!ck then you are a$$.. Don't be a b!tch about..

Does someone know or remember the thread about the man who posted in CWI about having an open relationship and then his wife left him for another man and the other mans wife.. 

He went on how he agreed with it and what a mistake it was. Now he is losing his wife to this other man and his wife.. 

Also how do you get into a conversation with a woman about sex and then get shot down ? How are you misreading that ?

I would suggest you mentally go down this road and think a few more minutes ahead on this one.. I would try to cover all the what if's.. 

I am pretty sure many of us here thought that our spouses wouldn't divorce us and leave us.. But they did.. I will simply tell you having someone in your corner makes it much easier.. Having someone support your decision makes it much easier.. 

My ex wife told me she could leave me now and tell me the stuff because she had the support for her to do it.. Of course I retorted back Oh, when you were suppose to tell me something to protect us you didn't have the balls or courage.. But now that you got some d!ck in you.. Now you have the balls to tell me off and what a lousy marriage we had.. But before when you were suppose to as a wife and as my partner to help us fix this, you didn't.. BUT NOW YOU DO... Good to know that.. 

Those are the things that drove me the crush her in family court.. When I have regret I reflect back at those moments when I was down crying and she was ripping me apart.. You reap what you sow.. 

Again stop being short sighted here and look down this road and image for a moment your wife does the things you think she cannot do.. 

How are gonna really handle it when she is getting more sex than you ? 
How are you gonna handle it when someone else convinces her to do things she would never do for you ? Because you know that is what fvcking happens ALL THE TIME...


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## Hardtohandle (Jan 10, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> A few words of advice. Asking for a hall pass is you wanting to have your cake and eat it to. You are not mentally prepared for it as much as you might think. Your statement about wanting to be sexually desired, well that means you want a woman who will "love and lust" after you.....you want to feel emotional love. You can't have emotional love with someone besides your wife and provide your wife and kids with the things you say you want them to have.
> 
> I was in a sex starved marriage. My wife actively emotionally hurt me whenever we had sex, so she could maintain her emotional distance from me. Eventually, I decided I had had enough. I decided that I was either going to save or end our marriage.
> 
> ...


Oddly enough the 5 languages of love audio book is on youtube.. But everyone should pay for the book.. But while you're waiting for that book you bought..


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Possibility is high that if you open up the marriage it will lead to divorce anyway so why not just divorce now? You are 50, stop wasting your life and just get on with it.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

All these dire warnings... Tsk tsk.

The man is unhappy. He doesn't feel loved, he doesn't feel wanted desired or appreciated. Whether or not he has given his marriage everything his has to make it really work, we simply can't really know. But here's what I know, when you're miserable to the point where being alone is preferable to being married, that's when it's time to cut your losses and divorce. And here's something else I know, only when you really are fully prepared to cut your losses and divorce, do they see that you are serious. This is why I advocate the ultimatum. We are too damn old to be ***** footing around itty wittle baby steps of improvement. Step it up or step the hell out!


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

So, if he asks and she agrees then she goes out and gets nailed early and often so what? Just puts a bright line under the BS attitude she is showing him now and would have continued to show.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Conceal.Dont.Feel said:


> This stung a little. But that's because I have thought much about this. I rarely get hit on. That may be part of my issue. I wish I did get hit on to stroke my ego. To build my self-esteem. I assume b/c I don't often get hit on, that I am not an attractive man. I work hard at staying in shape. For 50, I think I have an above average physique. I don't know how to find out what women think of me. I work long hours in an isolated environment with minimal interaction with others, socialize very little and have few friends. For decades my focus has been on my work, my family, getting my boys prepared for college. I keep my head down and my nose clean and probably come off as unapproachable.


If this is all that's missing - the ego boost - then it's not that difficult to put yourself out there and get hit on.

Right now, or even in the past, you are/were likely not putting yourself in a position to BE hit on. It's not enough to look a certain way, or be in shape, or just be physically attractive to someone. Believe me, there are women out there who find you attractive, but if you don't come across as being receptive to flattery or general flirting, they won't go there.

So for example, if a female co-worker of yours smiles at you and says "good morning, Joe!", and you grunt back "morning", without even looking up at her, then you're putting off a vibe.

Ironically enough, the co-worker who discussed her dissatisfaction with her husbands ability to sexually satisfy her was doing exactly what YOU want - to seek validation and an ego-boost. And you gave it to her. You propositioned her. Sure, she said no, but that's not what she was looking for - she was looking for somebody to show an interest in her that her husband was not. And she got it. You probably aren't/weren't the only male in the office who she's let that piece of information slip to. You made her feel desired, and that's apparently all she wanted - not to actually have an affair.

I'm not suggesting you suddenly become the office Lothario with your shirt unbuttoned, a gold chain and a spray tan, slapping women's butts. But if desirability from others is what you seek (and it is), then you need to find a safe medium in between "desperately seeking attention" and "uninterested". Currently, your vibe is "uninterested". With the woman you propositioned, you probably crossed over into "desperate" territory.

And here's the kicker: the more desirable you become, the more women will flirt with you. If and when your wife sees this, it may kick in an interest in you. If enough women show an interest in you, that is visible to your wife, she might wake up and realize you ARE desirable. Don't underestimate the power of outside influences in regards to how one's SO views them.

Case in point, I've changed my attitude immensely in the last year or so (mainly thanks to TAM, honestly). I give off a different vibe now. More confident, more relaxed and easy going, and more friendly. This has resulted in me being hit on or flirted with more in recent memory than ever before in my life. On more than one occasion, I've told my wife, if it was a particularly good/interesting/funny story. Each time I've done this, she wants details, including what the woman looked like (!!!). She laughs it off, calls me a stud, jokingly, but you can tell there's a slight twinge of jealousy there. And this isn't a bad thing. I'm also not doing this on purpose - I'm not LOOKING for attention, but I'm not walking around with a sign that says "f*** off, I'm married", either, which is what I probably used to do.

When your wife sees this from other women, or at least hears about it, it'll have a positive effect on how she views you. 30 years is a long time, and it's easy to no longer see your SO as desirable. Sometimes one needs a jumpstart like this to get things going again. If it's clear that others find you attractive, and worthy of flirting with, she'll probably start to think so, too.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

anonmd said:


> So, if he asks and she agrees then she goes out and gets nailed early and often so what? Just puts a bright line under the BS attitude she is showing him now and would have continued to show.


Exactly.

Right now she thinks she doesn't want sex, doesn't think her husband is serious, doesn't think she has to do anything different than what she's been doing for 30 years.

Open marriage granted.

She actually starts thinking about sex, goes out to meet men, puts some effort into doing things very differently than what she had been doing for 30 years.

She does this not for her husband, nor for her marriage, but for herself and to spite her husband. 

Is this the kind of woman you want to be married to anyway?


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## Conceal.Dont.Feel (Apr 20, 2015)

Hardtohandle said:


> I find you a bit selfish


I agree. I know I am being selfish. 30 years of being unselfish has lead me here.



> You waste 30 years of this woman's life and now you want this ?


That's harsh. Neither one of us wasted 30 years of the other's life. That's part of why divorce is not an option. Sex is important, but all the other components of our relationship far outweigh the sex. 




> You know you should have made time to get her in shape with you.. You should have made her part of that routine


Huh! Really? Never thought of asking her to work out with me. Duh! I have asked her, pleaded with her, suggested it, explained the health benefits, bought her exercise equipment, clothes, gym memberships, gone with her, dragged her kicking and screaming and anything else you can think of. Like sex, exercise is just not something that she desires, finds a need to do or wants to do.


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## Conceal.Dont.Feel (Apr 20, 2015)

Young at Heart said:


> A few words of advice. Asking for a hall pass is you wanting to have your cake and eat it to. You are not mentally prepared for it as much as you might think. Your statement about wanting to be sexually desired, well that means you want a woman who will "love and lust" after you.....you want to feel emotional love. You can't have emotional love with someone besides your wife and provide your wife and kids with the things you say you want them to have.
> 
> I was in a sex starved marriage. My wife actively emotionally hurt me whenever we had sex, so she could maintain her emotional distance from me. Eventually, I decided I had had enough. I decided that I was either going to save or end our marriage.
> 
> ...


YAH, 
Thank you for the sharing from your similar experience. I have written down the book titles and will plan to get them and read them.

A few points came to my mind as I read your reply.

First, simply, when did you find the time or privacy needed to read these, or was your wife aware you were reading these?

Second, I feel that I did "get a life" and "change myself" many, many years ago. She didn't notice. She didn't follow. She didn't care.

Third, I have reached a point where I feel it is HER that needs to "get a life" and "change herself" so that I take notice.


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## Conceal.Dont.Feel (Apr 20, 2015)

Anon Pink said:


> All these dire warnings... Tsk tsk.
> 
> The man is unhappy. He doesn't feel loved, he doesn't feel wanted desired or appreciated. Whether or not he has given his marriage everything his has to make it really work, we simply can't really know. But here's what I know, when you're miserable to the point where being alone is preferable to being married, that's when it's time to cut your losses and divorce. And here's something else I know, only when you really are fully prepared to cut your losses and divorce, do they see that you are serious. This is why I advocate the ultimatum. We are too damn old to be ***** footing around itty wittle baby steps of improvement. Step it up or step the hell out!


Anon Pink,
Thank you for the rare and welcomed words of support. I am unhappy and confused. I think the ultimatum may be coming.


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## Conceal.Dont.Feel (Apr 20, 2015)

alexm said:


> If this is all that's missing - the ego boost - then it's not that difficult to put yourself out there and get hit on.
> 
> Right now, or even in the past, you are/were likely not putting yourself in a position to BE hit on. It's not enough to look a certain way, or be in shape, or just be physically attractive to someone. Believe me, there are women out there who find you attractive, but if you don't come across as being receptive to flattery or general flirting, they won't go there.
> 
> ...


I didn't think about the co-worker's comments as seeking validation for her being desirable, but that makes perfect sense.

I have been shutting others out. I have been putting off a negative vibe. Not just uninterested, but unavailable. I think it is intentional to shield myself from situations which could become flirtatious. 

I do want to come across as more confident, more relaxed and more easy going. BUT--I know that I don't come across that way at work because it can be regarded as (the forum asterisked my choice of word here, which was just an adjective for overly confident that uses an synonym for the male member) k0cky, lazy and unambitious.

I have always found it much easier to change my physique than to change my personality.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Conceal.Dont.Feel said:


> I didn't think about the co-worker's comments as seeking validation for her being desirable, but that makes perfect sense.
> 
> *Most people here (myself included) would have told you that by her putting that information out there, to you, she was basically propositioning you in the process. It's called fishing. In this case, she's putting out some information in the hopes that you'll "get the hint", thereby leaving you to do the "dirty work", as it were. By her, a subordinate of yours, doing the propositioning, she puts herself, and her career, at risk. By giving you a hint like that, she's leaving the ball in your court. It's plausible deniability, in case you're not interested. Because you responded to her fishing in kind, she then knows that you're possibly interested in her in that way. Happens all the time.
> 
> ...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

alexm said:


> Most people here (myself included) would have told you that by her putting that information out there, to you, she was basically propositioning you in the process. It's called fishing. It's entirely possible she WAS hoping you'd proposition her, but she chickened out, or you came across as desperate. Or, as I said, she only wanted the -interest- in her, which she got, problem solved. I think that this is what you're after, too - just somebody to actually be interested in you, not necessarily to have an affair.


I've seen this many times.

Quite often, I find, it's just that she wants to make sure she's still "got it" and can have you if she wants you.

As soon as she knows she can have you, she doesn't want you any more. Because it's not you she wants, it's validation.

The best way to win is to not play the game at all.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

marduk said:


> I've seen this many times.
> 
> Quite often, I find, it's just that she wants to make sure she's still "got it" and can have you if she wants you.
> 
> ...


You can turn it around though.

There was a girl in my office was who was engaged and liked to complain about her fiancé. She would call him a loser while recounting some dumb thing he did or said and then smile at me.

After about the third time she did this I finally said, "wow, pretty soon you're going to be married to him and then you'll be married for the REST OF YOUR LIFE."

Then I just looked at her and smiled.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Sometimes women talk to men about their problems and don't actually have some kind of subconscious sexual agenda. See, women talk to each other about these things, and then sometimes we forget that as soon as we talk to a man about the same topic, in his mind he is already calculating "how much she wants him", so we are candid and open about ourselves, without realizing that to some men this indicates an interest in HIM somehow.

However, for the very reasons stated here that show the possibility of men assuming things, I no longer speak in person to any man about any subject that is personal.

I just do the much easier thing and stay quiet. They will usually jump in and do all the talking, about themselves. That way I never have to worry if he thinks I'm trying to flirt with him.


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

You're on a slippery slope my friend. I know you are because I've been there. I'm a few years older than you, and like you I keep myself in top physical condition. My wife lost her libido years ago and even told me she no longer desires sex. I was told as well that maybe she just doesn't desire sex with me. Hell, I began believing that! Of course, such was not the case but that didn't stop me from believing my wife no longer desired me. So, like I always have before...I sought validation with other women.

Your story does read as if you are trying to justify an affair. I'm going to tell you this...

When my wife told me she had lost her desire for sex, I was floored. Being the selfish "histrionic" prick that I am, instead of really listening to her, I internalized it and took care of my needs and completely disregarded hers...and that led our relationship (and all prior relationships for that matter) into a downward spiral. D-Day was the wake up call and for some reason, something about this event triggered me into seeking help when every time before I always laid the blame at my partners feet. So I sought help and am currently involved in therapy.

My wife is too. She is trying...but only after we began talking about the "why's and how's" that led us here. She had a blood panel done and come to find out that after menopause, she is producing ZERO testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone. She is now on HRT and our love life has been revived...with a vengeance.

I'm not sure if any of this will resonate with you, but I think the two of you need to really have a talk...but more importantly, when/if you do talk...both of you MUST listen to each other without slinging accusations that lead to hurt feelings/resentment. Listen to her, and she needs to listen to you. If you feel you can't do that alone, then seek out a therapist to "mediate" and perhaps provide insight and direction.

HTH


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Anon1111 said:


> You can turn it around though.
> 
> There was a girl in my office was who was engaged and liked to complain about her fiancé. She would call him a loser while recounting some dumb thing he did or said and then smile at me.
> 
> ...


Oh, if I were single and wanted a woman like that (that wasn't engaged but playing this game), I'd just hit on her friend.

Or even better, a hot woman in the room that obviously makes her jealous.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Faithful Wife said:


> Sometimes women talk to men about their problems and don't actually have some kind of subconscious sexual agenda. See, women talk to each other about these things, and then sometimes we forget that as soon as we talk to a man about the same topic, in his mind he is already calculating "how much she wants him", so we are candid and open about ourselves, without realizing that to some men this indicates an interest in HIM somehow.
> 
> However, for the very reasons stated here that show the possibility of men assuming things, I no longer speak in person to any man about any subject that is personal.
> 
> I just do the much easier thing and stay quiet. They will usually jump in and do all the talking, about themselves. That way I never have to worry if he thinks I'm trying to flirt with him.


I think this is a good point -- not every woman that talks to me wants me. 

I mean, it's rare, but I'm sure it's happened. At some point.

I may have had an off day or something.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

5 Ways Modern Men Are Trained to Hate Women | Cracked.com

#3. We Think You're Conspiring With Our Boners to Ruin Us


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Conceal-

You've spent 30 years with your wife in a platonic marriage and now you realize you want more. I have read your other threads and I can definitely relate. The "open marriage" talk came up with us not too long ago. I don't know if she told me to have sex with other women first or if somehow, I steered the conversation in that direction. Either way, it lead to an open marriage contract, signed and witnessed by a mutual friend. My wife was ecstatic to sign it because that relieved her from having sex with me. Sex didn't stop instantly, but it was the beginning of the end. It's been totally sexless for over 9 months now. Think about it before you jump off that cliff.

An open marriage wasn't what I was after. Hot steamy sex wasn't even what I was after. I was after that "desire" you talk about. After 3 1/2 years of TAM, I've been on this stupid rollercoaster ride, using every "trick" in the book, trying to change me and get my wife to desire me and maybe want and desire sex. That never happened. I have changed a lot and I have made many self improvements. At the same time, I have also ruined some friendships, mostly professionally, in the process. I would tell you to not do anything to ruin your reputation.

If I could go back in time just a little, the open marriage discussion would have never happened. Any and all conversations I have had with anybody, man or woman about my relatively sexless, unloving, unhappy marriage, would be deleted. I was playing a victim role. I was whinning. That was never an attractive trait, especially if I was hoping to have sex with other women.

What have I learned? I no longer feel like a victim. I no longer feel hurt because my wife doesn't love me the way I want her to. I no longer feel the need for my wife or any othet woman to feed my ego. I realize that when a woman touches my arm occasionally when she talks to me, that doesnt mean she wants me. Some women talk about personal things. I have learned that may not be a sign they secretly desire me.
I have grown a lot, especially over the last 6 months. If sex was all I was after, I know enough women now that it is very possible. Maybe! Just not while I am married. I realize that sex with other women isn't going to fix anything with my marriage.

Other than a brief 1 year period where sex went from 2X a month to 8X a month, it was mostly sexless. How on Earth should I expect my wife to change over night when I taught her sexlessness was fine for almost 20 years. When sex increased, she just complied so I wouldn't leave. 

I'll say this one more time. As of now, my wife and I haven't had sex in over 9 months. However, I think we get along better now than ever before. 

My wife never took advantage of her time to get out and mingle, she never developed any hobby's, and she had no desire to have sex with anybody. She definitely falls in to the Asexual category.

I know the end game. We both know it. We are working on logistics. After 23 years I still want the best for my wife. I want her to have a comfortable life. I always want my daughter to look up to me.. I can see me or my wife renting a place a couple blocks away. Close enough so our daughter could ride her bike back and forth. We can still keep the family home. Our daughter wouldn't be destroyed. Not like I initially thought.

I haven't crossed that line. Just ask yourself what kind of man do you want to be to your kids?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Trickster said:


> What have I learned? I no longer feel like a victim. I no longer feel hurt because my wife doesn't love me the way I want her to. I no longer feel the need for my wife or any othet woman to feed my ego. I realize that when a woman touches my arm occasionally when she talks to me, that doesnt mean she wants me. Some women talk about personal things. I have learned that may not be a sign they secretly desire me.


I really liked your whole post, but especially this part.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> *Sometimes women talk to men about their problems and don't actually have some kind of subconscious sexual agenda. See, women talk to each other about these things, and then sometimes we forget that as soon as we talk to a man about the same topic, in his mind he is already calculating "how much she wants him", so we are candid and open about ourselves, without realizing that to some men this indicates an interest in HIM somehow.*
> 
> However, for the very reasons stated here that show the possibility of men assuming things, I no longer speak in person to any man about any subject that is personal.
> 
> I just do the much easier thing and stay quiet. They will usually jump in and do all the talking, about themselves. That way I never have to worry if he thinks I'm trying to flirt with him.


I'm not so sure that women "forget" this. For me personally (and especially as my past working life was in a 95% male dominated industry) I have NEVER talked to a male that was not my dad or brother about personal issues. Flirting is fun but talking about personal issues is as another posted pointed out "fishing".

We have a rule in our relationship that if we are having any problems were are not to talk to anyone of the opp sex unless they are related. Just asking for trouble IMHO.

Sorry about the thread jack.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Holland said:


> We have a rule in our relationship that if we are having any problems were are not to talk to anyone of the opp sex unless they are related. Just asking for trouble IMHO. .



This may be true for a normal healthy relationship like yourself. Many people, however, may not have a healthy loving relationship.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Holland said:


> I'm not so sure that women "forget" this. For me personally (and especially as my past working life was in a 95% male dominated industry) I have NEVER talked to a male that was not my dad or brother about personal issues. Flirting is fun but talking about personal issues is as another posted pointed out "fishing".
> 
> We have a rule in our relationship that if we are having any problems were are not to talk to anyone of the opp sex unless they are related. Just asking for trouble IMHO.
> 
> Sorry about the thread jack.


I just don't think all women always have it in their minds that men may think they are fishing or flirting, because some women simply aren't doing that when they talk about personal issues.

I know many women who thought there was no "danger" of being mistaken for flirting (and they truly weren't) who later found out some man had assumed she was hot for him. And I don't even mean just talking about personal relationship issues. Like for instance, some women who are single will assume that a man who is in a relationship is faithful and therefore, she won't be feeling like she needs to guard all her words and behaviors because it should be obvious she wouldn't flirt with a man who isn't available....and then just because she was talking to the guy at all, he mistakes it for flirting.

A lot of men really do assume there is something there when there wasn't.

I'm not saying women may not be flirting sometimes, too. I'm just saying, even if a woman IS sharing a personal story, that in itself doesn't mean she is flirting.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Faithful Wife said:


> I just don't think all women always have it in their minds that men may think they are fishing or flirting, because some women simply aren't doing that when they talk about personal issues.
> 
> I know many women who thought there was no "danger" of being mistaken for flirting (and they truly weren't) who later found out some man had assumed she was hot for him. And I don't even mean just talking about personal relationship issues. Like for instance, some women who are single will assume that a man who is in a relationship is faithful and therefore, she won't be feeling like she needs to guard all her words and behaviors because it should be obvious she wouldn't flirt with a man who isn't available....and then just because she was talking to the guy at all, he mistakes it for flirting.
> 
> ...




This, to some degree, resembles what I experienced. I have always been the "nice cute guy". The fact that I was married, women felt I was " safe". I was always a good listener and women seemed to like that.

"I like talking to you. You really listen".

When I started to talk about my marriage issues and hinted that they were beautifuI and i was attracted to them, I was no longer that " safe" man they could talk to. That's the professional relationships I ruined. 

Married men in their mid 40's with kids looking for part time sex seem to be kriptonite.


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## MountainRunner (Dec 30, 2014)

Faithful Wife said:


> A lot of men really do assume there is something there when there wasn't.
> 
> I'm not saying women may not be flirting sometimes, too. I'm just saying, even if a woman IS sharing a personal story, that in itself doesn't mean she is flirting.


My experience has been different. Just sayin'.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Conceal-

If your wife actually agreed to an open marriage, ask yourself several questions.

1) how much money will your wife allow you to spend on them? Will you go on dinner dates? What about gifts?

2) Time? When would you see these women? Weekends, evenings, Friday nights?

3)Are you after random sex at the office during your lunch break? (That does happen. We hear all about that here on TAM with infidelity).

4) Would you and lover/lovers have to keep your open marriage a secret? Secrets are hard to keep. 

5) Time management? When to spend time with family vs when to spend time having outside sex? Would you want to do anything overnights? Weekend trips to the lake?

6) Are you after a real loving relationship with mutual desire and Libido? 


I am far from being able to give credible advice. However, I can relate. We are about the same age. I am in a position of authority as well and attempted the things you are about to do. It was an utter failure! 

I would suggest, if you haven't already, find an outside hobby that takes you away from home a few evenings a week or on Saturday's. See how you feel just being away.


As far as no longer finding your wife desirable? How do you feel about a totally platonic marriage for another 30 years?

Some of these questions are the same that Tammers aked me. I thought it would be different for me. I was wrong.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

MountainRunner said:


> My experience has been different. Just sayin'.


Ok well, if you want to claim that every woman who ever shared anything personal about herself actually just wanted in your pants, I'm going to say that doesn't sound like it is true. Even if some did, not all of them did. That just isn't realistic. 

And it goes the other way, too.

Not every man who spent a moment talking to me or sharing a personal story wanted in my pants, even if some of them did.

The point is that none of us should assume the intentions of another, especially if it is ambiguous or confusing, such as something as simple as a person sharing a personal story with you.

I'm not saying be wary of opposite sex attention when you're in a relationship, I'm just saying, please let's not assume that a woman cannot speak about herself to a man without it meaning she wants him sexually. I mean, c'mon now, be real.


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## Happilymarried25 (Mar 19, 2014)

That women shouldn't be telling you that her husband isn't satisfying her in the bedroom. That's being disrespectful to her husband. That should be private. I don't talk about our sex life to my women friends or family and I certainly wouldn't talk to a man acquaintance. If you want to sleep with other women then get a divorce, don't expect your wife to give you a Hall pass. You want your cake and eat it too.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> Sometimes women talk to men about their problems and don't actually have some kind of subconscious sexual agenda. See, women talk to each other about these things, and then sometimes we forget that as soon as we talk to a man about the same topic, in his mind he is already calculating "how much she wants him", so we are candid and open about ourselves, without realizing that to some men this indicates an interest in HIM somehow.
> 
> However, for the very reasons stated here that show the possibility of men assuming things, I no longer speak in person to any man about any subject that is personal.
> 
> I just do the much easier thing and stay quiet. They will usually jump in and do all the talking, about themselves. That way I never have to worry if he thinks I'm trying to flirt with him.


Agree, but as usual, it goes both ways. If I were to start speaking to a woman that way, I'd assume she assumes I'm fishing, too (even if I wasn't).

Like most things, it's not really gender related, it just is what it is.

A+B doesn't always = C, obviously, but most of the time it does


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

alexm said:


> Agree, but as usual, it goes both ways. If I were to start speaking to a woman that way, I'd assume she assumes I'm fishing, too (even if I wasn't).
> 
> Like most things, it's not really gender related, it just is what it is.
> 
> A+B doesn't always = C, obviously, but most of the time it does


I think it is always fine for us to temper ourselves, to make doubly sure we are not offending others or coming off in a way we don't intend to.

We also do not have to assume others want in our pants just because they talk to us.

We can be careful with our own actions and careful not to make assumptions at the same time.


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## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

"Conceal don't feel"... we all know what happens in that story 
But I guess the "cold doesn't bother you anyway"  heh

Anyway on a serious note, BAD IDEA, as to why -> what Fozzy said here:


Fozzy said:


> Open relationships only work if both people are already happy with each other. Otherwise they amplify resentments.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

Go for it OP. Your wife has no teeth, no bite. What's she going to do? Divorce you? Ok. Cut you off from sex? Lol ok. No change of consequence as far as I can see.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think it is always fine for us to temper ourselves, to make doubly sure we are not offending others or coming off in a way we don't intend to.
> 
> We also do not have to assume others want in our pants just because they talk to us.
> 
> We can be careful with our own actions and careful not to make assumptions at the same time.


Of course assumptions are bad, but when it comes to describing to somebody of the opposite sex - an acquaintance or a co-worker, no less, not a close friend- how your sex life is non-existent, I think most folks would make that assumption, even if they don't act on it.

Honestly, I would, and I'm in the category of men that require a written invitation, because things like this usually go over my head.

Sure there are people that over-share things, but even the most unfiltered people tend not to blurt stuff out like this, unless there's some sort of angle.

Like I said, this woman telling OP that her husband does not satisfy her in bed does not necessarily mean that she's looking for _OP_ to satisfy her in bed. But, even if it was subconscious, she's looking for something - be it validation ("Your husband's crazy for ignoring you, you're a beautiful woman" or "If you were my wife, I'd take care of you however/whenever you wanted" or fishing ("I can take care of that for you, you know where to find me"). Or maybe she just made an assumption that OP is not happy at home, either, and wanted somebody to understand and talk about her issue with her.

So, FW, you're talking specifics (ie. she wanted to jump in the sack with OP), but I'm talking generality - she wanted SOMETHING, not necessarily sex. Of this, there is no doubt. You don't throw a subject out like that off the cuff. There's a reason she brought it up to OP in the first place. OP just guessed wrong as to the motive, it appears.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Trickster said:


> Conceal-
> 
> If your wife actually agreed to an open marriage, ask yourself several questions.
> 
> ...


These are the questions I always have whenever this subject comes up here, and I'd love for somebody who has had experience to let the rest of us understand how this type of arrangement is even possible (aside from it being sketchy one night stands through craigslist or something).

And even then, do you tell your partner where you're going and what you're doing??? I imagine it'd become fairly obvious to your partner what you're doing when you either don't come home when you normally do, or go out for the night or something. Do you lie to them? Then it's the same as having an affair, but without the worries of getting caught. You'd still be sneaking around, though, just without the fear, I guess.

I truly don't get the concept of the one-sided open relationship. I can understand how it'd work if both people are taking part in this (don't ask, don't tell, I suppose, or perhaps they both share details and get off on that...), but if it's only one person, I'm not sure how this would even work.

Truly, I just don't think this type of arrangement is possible (please correct me if I'm wrong). Even if OP's wife understands she's not meeting his needs, and is unwilling to do so and "allows" him to seek it elsewhere, then that's more indicative of the relationship than it is their sex life, imo.

My wife is perfectly content to have sex 2, 3, 4 times a month, on her schedule. I would like it 2, 3, 4 times a week. We're far apart in that regard, and far apart, sexually speaking, with her unwillingness to budge on it from her side of things.

But if I brought up the subject of an open relationship in order to have my own needs met, she'd probably kick me in the nuts and file for divorce. It matters not that she knows she's not meeting my needs, and worse, that she's unwilling to do so. Is that fair? Hell no, and she knows it, too, but it is what it is. I could justify it til I'm blue in the face ("But you won't even make the attempt to meet me halfway!!!" or "You're holding all the cards here, and I have no power and no say!!!"). It's not fair to me at all (and that's another story altogether...) but I know damn well that she, like most SO's in her shoes, wouldn't take it lightly if I indicated I wanted - needed- to have my needs met elsewhere.

But I always have the option to move on, if I find it important enough to do so, as does the OP. The concept of the open relationship in order for one partner to have their needs met is ridiculous in my opinion.

I am under the impression that open relationships - in which both parties are agreeable and take part - are not about having both parties not meeting each others needs, therefore they both go elsewhere, yet remain together in the relationship. Rather, it is literally a lifestyle - two people enjoy sex and explore their sexuality with others, if not solely for the sake of excitement and variety.

Truth is, the most exciting and addicting parts of any relationship are the initial flirting, the anticipation, the excitement, etc. Some people do get addicted to this - hence affairs, swinging, open relationships, people who can't/won't settle down, etc. Hookups and ONS are a microcosm of those feelings, and they generate this excitement in small doses, and can definitely become addictive if you let it.

Problem is, once you're married, you're in it for the long haul, and it's not likely you'll ever get those feelings again, and you have to understand that when you take your vows with someone. But when two people are on the same page about this, then you get the open marriage. They're getting the best of both worlds, in their eyes. They have the commitment and loving relationship at home, but they also have access to the excitement and rush of new relationships. It's cake-eating, but it's mutual and allowed.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

alexm said:


> These are the questions I always have whenever this subject comes up here, and I'd love for somebody who has had experience to let the rest of us understand how this type of arrangement is even possible (aside from it being sketchy one night stands through craigslist or something).
> 
> And even then, do you tell your partner where you're going and what you're doing??? I imagine it'd become fairly obvious to your partner what you're doing when you either don't come home when you normally do, or go out for the night or something. Do you lie to them? Then it's the same as having an affair, but without the worries of getting caught. You'd still be sneaking around, though, just without the fear, I guess .


I did just that. When my wife and signed our open marriage contract, I went out on a few dates. Our daughter thought I went out with some friends. It was just dinner dates, nothing more. Each time I would get home, my wife asked how the date went. She acted like a guy friend would. That wasn't the reaction that I expected. I felt like a horrible man, not because of my wife, but because I had my daughter at home and I lied to her.

If my wife and I were divorced and I hired a baby sitter while out on a date, I think that would be much better than what I did. 

The women all wanted more. They wanted more than just sex when I was horny and then when it would be over, for me to go home to my sexless marriage. Not very many emotionally healthy women want that.


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

Many years ago, before my wife and I were married, I had a warehouse job, working with lots of women. One women, in particular, started flirting with me. When co-workers were around, it seemed to be over the top flirting. Then after several months of mutual flirting, while on lunch break, we were all talking about butts. Then she looked at me and said that she would sure like me to massage her butt. So I did just that with about a dozen people watching. She turned beet red because she didn't think I would do that. After that day, all her flirting stopped. All the flirting was just in fun. I kind of knew that. She liked my reaction to all her flirting. I think it made her feel desired as it did me.That it! She didn't really want more than that.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Our relationship has been open in some form from the beginning. Early on we were in a polyamorous relationship - we each had another partner for a year or so, until they eventually moved on into other relationships. Later, we got involved in swinging, which mostly we did together with other couples. Out of that experience we met a very few individuals with whom we're very compatible and we've continued seeing in an open relationship model. We each have different preferences - she's only interested in pursuing this a few times a year, and I prefer two or three times a month. This latest arrangement has persisted for about 4 years so far. We both know everyone well, are friends, and often socialize with them (sometimes with their spouse, if they have one). Our relationship is ideal for us, so we don't have the issues that some people bring to open relationships, or that lead to wanting them in the first place.



> 1) How much money will your wife allow you to spend on them? Will you go on dinner dates? What about gifts?


- We don't have any rules, but keep things reasonable. Dinner dates, most definitely. Besides, my FWB is as likely to buy me (or us) dinner as I am to treat her. We've bought her house-warming gifts when she moved, and helped her with that, too. My wife and FWB have gone shopping together occasionally.



> 2) Time? When would you see these women? Weekends, evenings, Friday nights?


- Whenever schedules permit. Since it isn't frequent, we just plan around other events and preferences. So yes - a weekend, a Friday, or any other evening is fine.



> 3)Are you after random sex at the office during your lunch break? (That does happen. We hear all about that here on TAM with infidelity).


- No, never have, never will. Too much potential for problems and misunderstandings.



> 4) Would you and lover/lovers have to keep your open marriage a secret? Secrets are hard to keep.


- There is no need to keep it secret, but we are discreet. It's no-one else's business, and there are too many haters to take chances. Some close friends know, of course, and some others have seen us out in public - I just go over and introduce my friend.



> 5) Time management? When to spend time with family vs when to spend time having outside sex? Would you want to do anything overnights? Weekend trips to the lake?


- See 2. Time management simply isn't a problem. We've done occasional overnights. Three of us have occasionally gone away together for a weekend. (None of us has kids at home, so that isn't an issue. Even if we did, everyone deserves some time to pursue outside friends and interests alone.)



> 6) Are you after a real loving relationship with mutual desire and Libido? These are the questions I always have whenever this subject comes up here, and I'd love for somebody who has had experience to let the rest of us understand how this type of arrangement is even possible (aside from it being sketchy one night stands through craigslist or something).


- I'm not "after" that, but am open to that happening in a polyamorous arrangement (as is my wife). Of course, none of this would be happening if there weren't mutual desire and libido. As far as a loving relationship is concerned, we are caring and loving friends even if there isn't a romantic aspect. However, since the complexities and logistics of a true polyamorous relationship are daunting, there are only a very few specific scenarios in which that could work for us, and they aren't likely to occur. Since we're extremely happy in our relationship, there are none of the issues that some open relationships face, such as concern that one of us would leave for a "better" partner. We'd just add someone, not replace anyone.



> And even then, do you tell your partner where you're going and what you're doing??? I imagine it'd become fairly obvious to your partner what you're doing when you either don't come home when you normally do, or go out for the night or something. Do you lie to them? Then it's the same as having an affair, but without the worries of getting caught. You'd still be sneaking around, though, just without the fear, I guess.


- Of course we tell each other, as there are no lies or secrets and we plan our schedules and activities together. If we're going to run late, we'll call home.



> I truly don't get the concept of the one-sided open relationship. I can understand how it'd work if both people are taking part in this (don't ask, don't tell, I suppose, or perhaps they both share details and get off on that...), but if it's only one person, I'm not sure how this would even work.


- One-sided can work just fine. As long as both are getting what they want, it doesn't have to be equal. There are also many happy and successful couples where one is monogamous and the other is polyamorous. We don't discuss details (but having done threesomes and swinging, there isn't much we don't already know), because our partners have a right to privacy and we respect that unless they say it's okay.



> Truly, I just don't think this type of arrangement is possible (please correct me if I'm wrong). Even if OP's wife understands she's not meeting his needs, and is unwilling to do so and "allows" him to seek it elsewhere, then that's more indicative of the relationship than it is their sex life, imo.


- While I think it's possible, as I've said many times it's riskier and far less likely to work out well or long-term if the core relationship isn't great. An open relationship can often enhance an already good relationship, but isn't likely to solve an issue in a relationship with problems. In the latter, it is more likely to create additional problems. But not always, and sometimes (perhaps rarely) an open relationship can work and solve an issue that can't be solved in the marriage by the couple alone.


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## PieceOfSky (Apr 7, 2013)

Young at Heart said:


> I was in a sex starved marriage. *My wife actively emotionally hurt me whenever we had sex, so she could maintain her emotional distance from me. * Eventually, I decided I had had enough. I decided that I was either going to save or end our marriage.


OP,

My advice....

Regardless of how you proceed, beware that your wife may say and do things to protect her own ego and to avoid awareness of her role in the the unhappiness you feel and the distance growing between you. I suppose it depends on her character, especially her honesty, as well as her self-esteem.

I'd guess you are in a vulnerable position already, because you have felt rejection after rejection from her, year after year. Perhaps by now too much of your feelings of self-worth, as a husband and as a man, are tied up in the affection and intimacy from her that seems like it is just around the corner. 

Now that she has awareness of your dissatisfaction, be prepared for her rejections of you to become laced with signals, implicit or explicit, about what is [supposedly] wrong with you, so that she can justify in her mind her rejection of intimacy with you.

Should those signals come, there may be truth in some and not in others. Don't assume the worst. Ask yourself if that is how you deserve to be treated, if that is how a loving partner communicates concerns. Ask yourself if that is how you would have treated her.


Best of luck.


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## alexm (Nov 29, 2008)

Trickster said:


> I did just that. When my wife and signed our open marriage contract, I went out on a few dates. Our daughter thought I went out with some friends. It was just dinner dates, nothing more. Each time I would get home, my wife asked how the date went. She acted like a guy friend would. That wasn't the reaction that I expected. I felt like a horrible man, not because of my wife, but because I had my daughter at home and I lied to her.
> 
> If my wife and I were divorced and I hired a baby sitter while out on a date, I think that would be much better than what I did.
> 
> The women all wanted more. They wanted more than just sex when I was horny and then when it would be over, for me to go home to my sexless marriage. Not very many emotionally healthy women want that.


So was your marriage a one-sided open marriage, or did your wife also go out on dates, etc?

How did you two arrive at this contract, if I can ask?


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## Trickster (Nov 19, 2011)

alexm said:


> So was your marriage a one-sided open marriage, or did your wife also go out on dates, etc?
> 
> How did you two arrive at this contract, if I can ask?


I don't vknow how to explain bitvall without a thread jack. I'm not see thevOP posting though...

I found the open marriage contract on the internet and made a few modifications. I wasn't exactly rational at the time. I fell off the wagon after 17 years of sobriety. For several years, I was on and off again. Each time, my never spoke a word wheteevI was drinking or if I had a few months of sobriety. I was hoping for some validation that she was glad to see me not drink. Just a little something.

So the contract was meant for her to reject. A $hit test. She signed it with a smile on her face. It was a two way contract. She had no desire to date. That was the real proof that she is really asexual or just too lazy.

Through all my issues, my wife has been the one tonnot react to any changes in my behavior. 

It may be time for me to start a new thread, now that I am recovering from a self diagnosed BPD.


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