# second thought.....religious angle



## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

I'm feeling conflicted this morning. I really need to bounce all these ideas off of my counselor, but the budget's pretty tight this month, so I don't have the money to go see her. As most of you probably know, I come from a very conservative, protestant Christian background. I was taught ask my life that divorce is wrong, except for adultery.

I'm seriously thinking about moving back home. Please hear me out before offering advice!

On my last visit to see my son, I noticed he's been complaining of tummy aches every time he eats or drinks. I'm worried the stress of not having me around is getting to him. He worried before, which is why I felt it might be best if we separated or divorced. ("Daddy, did the tone Momma had hurt you?") But I don't want to give my son ulcers! He asks me frequently if I lived there any more. I can tell he's thinking a lot about it.

Am I irreparably harming my son? Am I being selfish?

I still have no doubt that I was ( and still am in some ways) being emotionally abused. It wasn't constant and it wasn't as bad as some people endure, but it has definitely stolen my joy and crushed my soul.

I guess I'm conflicted about the need or desirability for sacrificial love. Even though I felt like I was dying inside.....in fact, a few times, I literally prayed for death..... I still question at times. Maybe my pastor was right. Maybe I should stay and become a "human punching bag." Doesn't the Bible teach a lot about self-sacrifice? How does defending our boundaries fit with this?

I would argue that Jesus' sacrifice was strategic and targeted. In other words, he only made sacrifices which furthered God's purposes. There were several times when Jesus stood his ground when challenged. He was not a doormat. His ultimate sacrifice on the cross was a strategic sacrifice, intended to defeat satan. So I have an issue with people who say we must follow Jesus' example and NEVER stand up for ourselves. Sometimes, bad behavior must be confronted.

In my humanity, I don't want to do go back home. I'm emotionally done. I want closure. As selfish as it sounds, I want a chance at an authentic relationship somewhere down the road.

But then I think about my little guy curling up on the floor saying his tummy hurts, and I feel awful. 

I don't know if I have it in me to go back to living like we were. The thought of going back to that makes MY tummy hurt. The best case scenario I can envision is her gritting her teeth and enduring my presence. I definitely can't ever envision anything approaching a real relationship.

Is that my lot in life? Would God call me to remain in an emotionally abusive marriage because that's the sacrifice I am called to make? And if that's the case, how will I ever be able to teach Bryant what a real relationship looks like? "Hey, son, do as I say, not as I did?"

My emotions, my common sense, my human desires all say that things won't get better and leaving is the only way this will improve. But my former pastor, and quite a few other well-respected Christian leaders say as long as there's no adultery, I don't have just cause. Is it my lot to endure and hope against all reason that things get better?

I've had some well-meaning Christians tell me it's OK to separate. We can live separated forever if need be. Divorce is the only thing that's off-limits. To me, this seems like a legalistic technicality. You are not living out an authentic, God-pleasing marriage, but you can claim that technically you are not divorced. Somehow, that strikes me as a farce. 

Where the heck is this guilt coming from?

And how can I make this easier on my son's tummy? Or more importantly, his spirit?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I divorced my son's father becasue he was abusive and a serial cheater. But I stayed with him much longer than I should have because of our son. 

My son used to beg me to not leave him with his father whenever I would go out. It took me a long time to get my son to tell me why. What he did finally tell me is "Mommy, when you are not here daddy treats me like he treats you." This scared the daylights out of me.

Your son could be dealing with not only missing your but now being the target for his mother's wrath... you were the main target but not she does not have you to use to get out her anger.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

The chaos and anger she holds inside has to go somewhere.

We've talked about you standing up to her.

Sounds like it may be time to do it.

You'll get plenty of practice at "I'm not ok with this"

And, if the environment is particularly hostile, your son and you can go to a safe place until the storm passes by.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Conrad said:


> The chaos and anger she holds inside has to go somewhere.
> 
> We've talked about you standing up to her.
> 
> ...


At which point she'll call the police and claim I've kidnapped him. She's also threatened that if I ever do something like this, she has a place to go with him where "I'll never find them" (her words)

I'm all in favor of standing up for myself and my son. But she's made such extreme threats (and based on her past actions, these threats are.extremely credible).

That's why I still believe a divorce is the only course of action I had available to me. But I still feel guilty!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> At which point she'll call the police and claim I've kidnapped him. She's also threatened that if I ever do something like this, she has a place to go with him where "I'll never find them" (her words)
> 
> I'm all in favor of standing up for myself and my son. But she's made such extreme threats (and based on her past actions, these threats are.extremely credible).
> 
> ...


Voice Activated Recorder.

I hate to advise this, but you should have one in every room.

Should settle things quickly.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

Conrad said:


> Voice Activated Recorder.
> 
> I hate to advise this, but you should have one in every room.
> 
> Should settle things quickly.



OK....when does trust come in? If you need to wire your house and have an escape plan in place, how can it be called a marriage? Sounds like a prison! 

And I'm not OK with that.....
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

hurtnohio said:


> At which point she'll call the police and claim I've kidnapped him. She's also threatened that if I ever do something like this, she has a place to go with him where "I'll never find them" (her words)
> 
> I'm all in favor of standing up for myself and my son. But she's made such extreme threats (and based on her past actions, these threats are.extremely credible).
> 
> That's why I still believe a divorce is the only course of action I had available to me. But I still feel guilty!


Does she threaten to call the police on you for other reasons besides a hypothetical you taking your son?

Have you told her that you might take your son and leave?

Her threat of taking your son (kidnapping him) and hiding him is enough reason for you to file for divorce. Without a custody plan in place it's a lot harder to fight when one parent does take off with a child.

Tell your attorney that she has threatened to do this. This makes filing an interim child custody plan even more important.

If your wife has to have someone serve her dinner, how is she going to take care of a child even 50% of the time?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

hurtnohio said:


> OK....when does trust come in? If you need to wire your house and have an escape plan in place, how can it be called a marriage? Sounds like a prison!
> 
> And I'm not OK with that.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The idea of the VAR is that if she is threatening to call the police and falsely accuse you of spousal or child abuse you have to protect yourself when you are around her.

This way when the police show up you can play the VAR and show them that she has making threats based on nothing. 

Once it's to this point, there is no trust in the marriage. When a spouse is threatening to make false charges... though it's not clear that's what she did.. Does she threaten to call the police and accuse you of things you have not done?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

hurtnohio said:


> OK....when does trust come in? If you need to wire your house and have an escape plan in place, how can it be called a marriage? Sounds like a prison!
> 
> And I'm not OK with that.....
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I thought you were going back to help your son.

The other issues are boundary enforcement-related.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

christian perspective?

you can remain separated, that is a choice. But not exactly what is preferred.

while you are separated you are still responsible for your family, their support, including your wife.

without infidelity you dont have grounds for divorce. You just dont.

your wife is your responsibility, even more so than your children. Once you married her she actually became your primary responsibility in life, above even your own life.


whatever she is, or she isnt, you married her. You are accountable for her. She is your life now. You must love her and be accountable for her. That is the marriage covenant.

You are required to fix this. It isnt optional, as the entire family including your wife is your duty and God has made you head.
She needs to learn to submit, you lead. That is biblical law.
And as mentioned YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR HER AND YOU MUST LOVE HER.
This isnt a optional thing. This is the marriage covenant you made before God.

I been there in separation, i had not intention of divorce. But i still remembered what my obligations were and what my priorities were. You lose this marriage without biblical grounds (from a christian perspective) or dont support and make yourself accountable for your wife and family it is very serious. Failure is not a option.

you may need some time to rebuild yourself so you are more good for your family, maybe you are dying inside. But her life comes before yours. That is your vow and your wife.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Does she threaten to call the police on you for other reasons besides a hypothetical you taking your son?
> 
> Have you told her that you might take your son and leave?
> 
> ...


 Her threat was made the first time in the context of me taking him on a bike ride. The same bike ride I've taken him on hundreds of times before and since. But one night she decided I wasn't going to be "safe" with him. I had done nothing wrong on the night in question, but she had arbitrarily decided I.was "not safe."



I told her I wasn't OK with her treating me as if I were a child needing her permission to take my own son on a bike.ride. She said if I took him, she would take him.and run away with him once I got back.

I backed down on this . I didn't want to risk it. 

It's hard to.defend your boundaries if the other person's response to you saying "I'm not OK with this" is to threaten to run away with.your son.

Also, her physical condition has improved a lot in the last 12 months. I am on the road more now, plus since I moved out, she's obviously been on her own a lot. She's doing better physically.

Actually, the police have been to our house once. Her mom called the cops because she suspected our phones were bugged. It turns out -as I discovered later- that she and her mom believe I bugged the phones. So I.suspect the visit from the police was meant to send a message.

And for the record, no, I did not bug our phones.

There will be hell to pay if I were to install VARs and she found out. There was hell to pay just over me NOT bugging the phones!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

hurtnohio said:


> Her threat was made the first time in the context of me taking him on a bike ride. The same bike ride I've taken him on hundreds of times before and since. But one night she decided I wasn't going to be "safe" with him. I had done nothing wrong on the night in question, but she had arbitrarily decided I.was "not safe."
> I told her I wasn't OK with her treating me as if I were a child needing her permission to take my own son on a bike.ride. She said if I took him, she would take him.and run away with him once I got back.
> I backed down on this . I didn't want to risk it.


Where would she be able to go? She depends on you financially right? Who would she run off to that would support her and your son?



hurtnohio said:


> It's hard to.defend your boundaries if the other person's response to you saying "I'm not OK with this" is to threaten to run away with.your son.


The response to this threat from her is that you would find her and she would lose custody and would not be allowed anything but supervised visitation. 


hurtnohio said:


> Also, her physical condition has improved a lot in the last 12 months. I am on the road more now, plus since I moved out, she's obviously been on her own a lot. She's doing better physically.


Sounds like now that she has to be better physically since you are not around as much, she’s miraculously doing better. Do you think that some of her symptoms are based on her being able to use it to control you?


hurtnohio said:


> Actually, the police have been to our house once. Her mom called the cops because she suspected our phones were bugged. It turns out -as I discovered later- that she and her mom believe I bugged the phones. So I.suspect the visit from the police was meant to send a message.
> And for the record, no, I did not bug our phones.


So did the police find your bugs on the phone? LOL So far there is one call to the police for some nonsense. This is actually in your favor, it makes your wife and her mom look like they are paranoid.


hurtnohio said:


> There will be hell to pay if I were to install VARs and she found out. There was hell to pay just over me NOT bugging the phones!


Once the cops were there it became clear that you are not bugging the phones right? So why is there hell to pay for that?

Was the call to the police for supposed bugged telephones after she found the VAR?

What state do you live in? I’m wondering because state laws differ on recording conversations. Generally in your own home you can record where there is no expectation of privacy. For example in bedrooms and bathrooms there is an expectation of privacy.

Some states require that only one person in the conversation be aware of the recording. In other states all parties must agree to the recording and to the playing back of the recording. 

I would not put VARS around your house. Instead if I were you I would have one on my person. If legally required I would even tell her that you have one on you to protect you against her false accusations. That way she knows and you are not hiding anything. If she knows you are recording everything she will probably get on her best behavior. That might actually be a relief.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Where would she be able to go? She depends on you financially right? Who would she run off to that would support her and your son?


She would probably go live with her family.



> So did the police find your bugs on the phone? LOL So far there is one call to the police for some nonsense. This is actually in your favor, it makes your wife and her mom look like they are paranoid.
> 
> Once the cops were there it became clear that you are not bugging the phones right? So why is there hell to pay for that?


Nothing is ever that simple. She claims she borrowed some type of counter-surveillance equipment that detected a bug on one extension. But she won't tell me who she borrowed it from or let me try to replicate the results. 

And I didn't bug the phone anyway, so I have no idea what this equipment "proves." Her story is that the bug was internal and I was the only one who could have done it, so.......

Shortly thereafter, we became a cell-phone only family, so she thinks the problem is solved. It's all very strange!


> Was the call to the police for supposed bugged telephones after she found the VAR?


I didn't install a VAR.... I was speaking hypothetically if I DID install one.

What
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## lulubelle (Jun 28, 2012)

i left an abusive marriage for my sons. i didn't want them to grow up thinking that was how you treated a woman. i understand and empathize with your Christian duty as a husband and man, and i respect it very much, not many men would be so commited. at the same time God loves you unconditionally and knows humans make mistakes. i think you need to pray hard on this, and maybe speak to somes pastors or church elders for support. 
i also think you do need to speak to a lawyer, because if you are married and she takes off with your son, you're going to be ice skating uphill to try to regain contact. could you maybe record a conversation with her on your cell phone? if things get ugly, you will need proof of her threats and instability to protect you and your son.
also, if she has been abusive/controlling to you, eventually she very well may begin to act in a controlling and verbally abusive way to your son. you definitely need to do whats best for you and your son, so unless she would be willing to get help or go to counseling alone and/or with you, i'm not sure if moving back would be best for either of you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Well if you know that you did not bug the phones then you know the entire story is a crock. She did not borrow any bug sniffing device and did not find anything. Your wife is sounding paranoid.


hurtnohio said:


> I didn't install a VAR.... I was speaking hypothetically if I DID install one


Previously you said that she did find a VAR that you had. Did she accuse you of bugging the phones after finding the VAR that you did have?


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

bribrius said:


> christian perspective?
> 
> you can remain separated, that is a choice. But not exactly what is preferred.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to get into a pi$$ing contest with you but I am a christian as well and this is just wrong.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

cantmove said:


> I'm not going to get into a pi$$ing contest with you but I am a christian as well and this is just wrong.


If you aren't willing to sacrifice yourself for her and put her first then you probably shouldnt have married her. It is this sacrifice and love that allows a woman to submit without fear. But now that you have married someone that needs some work the same applies so suck it up cupcake. She is your life. Lose that marriage without biblical grounds you might as well have someone put a bullet in your head as that is less intense than the scolding you might get from God since you are designated head of house and head of her whether you want the responsibility or not.. 


suck it up cupcake. The legal aspects are the least of your worries as whatever she does wrong you are failing in your responsibility to lead her.


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## cantmove (Feb 20, 2012)

bribrius said:


> If you aren't willing to sacrifice yourself for her and put her first then you probably shouldnt have married her. It is this sacrifice and love that allows a woman to submit without fear. But now that you have married someone that needs some work the same applies so suck it up cupcake. She is your life. Lose that marriage without biblical grounds you might as well have someone put a bullet in your head as that is less intense than the scolding you might get from God since you are designated head of house and head of her whether you want the responsibility or not..
> 
> 
> suck it up cupcake. The legal aspects are the least of your worries as whatever she does wrong you are failing in your responsibility to lead her.


Maybe you should pay better attention to who you're replying to. I'm a woman and my husband left me for a skank that he cheated with for thirteen years. I still think your completely wrong. We clearly believe in a different God. Mine is forgiving.


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## bribrius (Jun 29, 2012)

cantmove said:


> Maybe you should pay better attention to who you're replying to. I'm a woman and my husband left me for a skank that he cheated with for thirteen years. I still think your completely wrong. We clearly believe in a different God. Mine is forgiving.


The standards are higher for the husband as they are given the responsibility as head and accountable. i would say your husband failed his responsibility.

God is forgiving, but knowing you are doing something wrong and still doing it. Neglecting your responsbilities as he has given them to you and then asking for forgiveness after knowing you were neglecting them isnt something i would suggest. Especially in a vow you made before him in a marriage covenant it isnt a little small mistake but rather closer to blaspheming him directly.
It doesnt apply equally to a wife. They arent given the responsibility as head.


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> Well if you know that you did not bug the phones then you know the entire story is a crock. She did not borrow any bug sniffing device and did not find anything. Your wife is sounding paranoid.
> 
> Previously you said that she did find a VAR that you had. Did she accuse you of bugging the phones after finding the VAR that you did have?


I believe I said there "would be" hell to pay if I had done this and If she found out. I was speaking completely hypothetically about a VAR. Sorry if I mis-worded this.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hurtnohio (Jul 17, 2011)

bribrius said:


> The standards are higher for the husband as they are given the responsibility as head and accountable. i would say your husband failed his responsibility.
> 
> God is forgiving, but knowing you are doing something wrong and still doing it. Neglecting your responsbilities as he has given them to you and then asking for forgiveness after knowing you were neglecting them isnt something i would suggest. Especially in a vow you made before him in a marriage covenant it isnt a little small mistake but rather closer to blaspheming him directly.
> It doesnt apply equally to a wife. They arent given the responsibility as head.


Am I reading this correctly? A wife can treat her husband as harshly s possible and as long a there is no affair, I am not allowed to do anything other than say " I am not OK with this?"


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Hurt,
If she takes your son somewhere and hides she will forfeit the substantial child support you provide. She might try it - but very quickly will discover that the jobs she can get without using her social security number (which would allow you to track her) are low paying.

Not gonna happen - she is used to the easy life you have provided.

As for going home as a punching bag, you will be teaching your son that being abused is ok.





hurtnohio said:


> Am I reading this correctly? A wife can treat her husband as harshly s possible and as long a there is no affair, I am not allowed to do anything other than say " I am not OK with this?"
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Bellavista (May 29, 2012)

Divorce is permitted when one spouse is not a Christian, and that spouse willfully and permanently deserts the Christian spouse (1 Corinthians 7:15).
The actions of your wife are not those of a Christian, despite what she might profess. For a person to be a BAC, you do need to see growth in their life.
Personally, the words & actions of your wife seem to say that she has 'deserted' the marriage by not being a supportive spouse.


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