# The Roller Coaster of Separation....advice please



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Hello friends. My wife and I met when we were 15 years old. We dated for 6 years before finally getting married at the early age of 21. we have been semi-happily married for 14 years. I dont think I was really ready to get married, but our relationship had gotten to the point where it was either "get married" of "break up"...her father died shortly after we started dating and I think that we both had some serious codependency issues going on that kept us together during college. Anyways, when we decided to get married, it was much more of a decision than a proposal; there was no grand gesture; there was no ellaborate proposal...we just kind of decided we would get married. Even in the weeks leading up to the marriage, I found myself flirting with other girls. Nothing ever came of it, but the wandering eye was there even early on. So, we got married. I dont remember that we were ever blissfully happy, but it was certainly better than what I am going through now. Anyways, early in our marriage, my wife found out that I looked at porn pretty regularly...I didnt think this was a big deal, but she was crushed...almost like I had cheated on her. I went to counseling and was basically convinced that I was addicted to porn. I layed off the porn for a while, had some fallbacks here and there, but ultimately, it kind of crept back into my life, but I still dont know if it was really an addiction - given the choice, I would much rather be intimate with my wife, but her sex drive is a "once every other week kind of thing"...mine is daily. So, we got past that. About a year later, I ended up becoming really good friends with a female co-worker...she was so much fun and we had things in common that my wife and I never had. Again, i never cheated, but its safe to say that I had a serious crush on this co-worker. I would even talk about her at home with my wife. My wife ultimately called me on it "you have a crush on her..dont you", she said. I admitted that I did, but didnt want to loose her as a friend, so I kept the friendship going - which was a mistake. It ultimately ended really weird, in order to convince my wife that I was not cheating on her, I basically had to tell my co-worker to never speak to me again. I blocked her emails and instant messages. It took a while for the message to get accross, but the friendship ended - abruptly. I guess the next phase of our marriage involves kids. Let me start by saying that raising kids is HARD work. wow. Anyways, we currently have a 9 year old and a 3 year old. When the oldest was 4-5 years old (before the yougest was born), I started to distance myself from the family. It wasnt intentional, I just started doing a lot more stuff with friends and away from my wife and child. I would play tennis one night, poker the next, happy hour the next, maybe go to a concert by myself. I kept this up for a couple months at least and my wife finally called it to my attention and threatened to leave. So I stopped going out so much, stay home, really tried to work on our marriage. During all of this, my wife had been going back to school to finally get her degree. Just as she was getting ready to graduate and start her career, yep, you guessed it. Baby #2 came along. My wife is not the sort of mother who puts her kids in day care, so her career was now on hold. The new baby was TOUGH...and thats an understatement. He didnt sleep through the night until he was 20 months old. With our first child, my wife basically took care of all the "night shifts" since I had to be up early for my job. With the new baby, I was able to take 3 months off from work and I was Mr. Mom...right there with her. We would take shifts so that the load was shared. Once I went back to work, I continued to help with the hard nights. We were both sleep deprived and miserable. We fell of the face of the planet as far as friends go. Before our second child, we used to host dinner parties all the time, but that came to an end. Anyways, as tired and miserable and I was, I felt like I was finally checked into my family and doing my part as a husband and a father and I was proud of that. The problem though was that during this time, my wife had gotten really cold and bristly towards me. Nothing I did was correct, and I always came up short in her eyes. It turns out that right about the time that I checked back into the family (remember when I stopped going out so much), she checked out. I think that was a lot of her motivation to finish school...I believe that she was planning her escape from a dependent marriage.

Sorry for the history, but I wanted to provide at least some background before getting into my current situation.

Anyways, about 7-8 months ago, my wife came to me and said that she wanted to give our marriage a year, and if we couldnt "fix it" by then, she wanted a divorce. She was serious and I could tell. When I was 2 years old, my parents divorced, so I know first hand how hard it can be on children. Based on my own experiences, I had defined my success as a man based on my ability to NOT follow in my father's footsteps. My MO was to stay married at all costs. So, my wife's annoucement and 1-year timeframe was a real wake up call. We agreed that we were going to love each other and turn things around. I should also point out that almost exactly at the same time, 2 other things happened: 1. I had a vasectomy 2. she started working out 7 days a week and losing weight like crazy.....Well, for the most part, we got off to a really good start. Things felt good. And then it was tax time (which also coincides with when I get my bonus at work). We had talked previously about what to use this year's bonus and tax return for and decided that we would pay off some old student loans...BUT, one day, my wife walks in and tells me that instead of paying off the loans, she wants plastic surgery - the mommy makeover (breast reduction and tummy tuck). This wasnt completely out of the blue - we had talked about it before, but the timing was never right and we never had the money before. Due to her recent weight lose, she really wanted the surgery. It wasnt as much of a conversation as much as it was her announcing that she was going in for her consult. She went for the consult, paided the down payment, and scheduled her surgery. A few weeks later, she went on a trip by herself to see an old friend where we grew up. When she got back, it was like a lightswitch got flipped. She told me that she no longer wanted to try to save our marriage and that she wanted a divorce. I was crushed...I'll save you the play by play, but the short story is that I have spent the last 6 months trying to change her mind and that I went ahead and paid for her surgery and also was completely there for her during her recovery. If I had not paid for the surgery, that would have put the nail in my coffen, so I dont feel like I really even had a choice if I wanted to stay married. Again, to try to keep it short, the last six months have been a cycle of me trying to convince her to stay, her convincing me that we are not good for one another, me finding out through eavesdropping or snooping that she is being dishonest with me - even during the times when she tells me that she is "trying", me finally giving in and telling her that I am also "done" and that divorce is probably the right thing, and then the cycle starts over again when she realizes how impactful this is going to be on ours and the kids' lives...so she takes a step forward everytime that I think its done. We've literally been through this cycle 4-5 times. But lately, she seems to have leveled out and its me that seems to be having all the doubts and trust issues. 6 weeks ago, she moved to our vacation home with the kids. She got a job there, and is starting on Monday. She has finally agreed to go to marriage counseling. Its a really weird separation because on the weekends, I'll either go to the vacation home, or she will come here. We will sleep in the same bed and occationally we will be intmate. (Sex by the way is and has always been great between us) Our time together is really difficult because she seems to think that I am obsessed with sex. With the weight loss and surgery...omg, she looks unbeleivable. Its all I can do to keep my hands off of her. But that is the last thing she wants. When I am away from her, I start to think about things logically. I think: we've never really been happy, she doesnt enjoy my company, the things I enjoy annoy her, she doesnt trust me, she undermines my masculinity, I realize that I dont really enjoy her company either - even when we go on dates, I dont really have fun. I'm on eggshells the whole time trying not to make an inappropriate joke, trying not to have more than 2 beers or I'll hear about it, its just not enjoyable. So lately, yeah, its me thats having all these doubts. When we are together, the doubts subside a little, but as soon as we are apart again, I find myself looking at other women...wondering if they would like me for who I am...wondering if I would be able to really have a connection with someone else that would allow me to be "the man" that wife seems to think that I am not.

Im just so torn up right now. I dont know what advice I am even looking for. Maybe just a fresh perspective on things. More than anything, I want to "want to stay married"...I want that desire back. It feels so weird to have fought tooth and nail for six months to save the marriage and then all of the sudden, its like I am at the end of my rope...I've been convinced that I cant be the man my wife requires...and for the first time I am really asking myself what do I want out of this. 

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

-My Name is Jonas


----------



## Battleworn (Jun 24, 2013)

Jonas- So sorry you're here! I imagine you feel like a freaking yo-yo right now. 

So at this point your wife wants to try to work things out? I can definitely understand your doubts and trust issues. I feel like if my H were to want to come home right now I would be very doubtful too, I mean you said it has been six months of you trying to win her back and she didn't budge, and even before that, you guys have been through this cycle several times! If you want to want this, which I believe that you do, otherwise you wouldn't be here, I would start by not thinking about it so much. Trust me, I know that sounds hard. But in order to look forward you have to stop looking back. Your head can only fully turn in one direction after all. Not to say forget the past, maybe take a glance back now and then to reflect on what brought you guys here, but if she is in and you are in, forgiveness will be one of your best tools for moving forward. 

Do you know if she was with someone else?

Also, one thing you could try is being intimate without adding sex. You could just make out on the couch during a movie, or lay down in bed and hold each other. It could be something she feels that she is missing. With her weight loss and surgeries she could very well be getting all kinds of attention she doesn't want, so you genuinely just wanting her isn't a bad thing but in her eyes she could just feel like a piece of meat. It could be a good bonding time for y'all! And if you show restraint, and tease her a little, you could have her initiating sex c;

I can't help much in the man-stuff department but there are quite a few men on TAM who can help you with that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Thanks BW. Do I know if there was anybody else? Hrmm, well that is a good question. Over the past several months while my wife was planning her "escape", she talked and texted an awful lot with an old high school friend back home where we grew up. He was divorced and also had kids. When she would take trips there, she would hang out with him and our kids would play together. She insisted that he was just a friend and even kind of threw it in my face that she could talk to him and connect with him in ways that she couldn't with me. I told her very honestly that unless he was gay, her plutonic feelings were surely different than what he felt. I also pointed out that if the script were flipped and it were ME talking to and hanging out with an old divorced high school girl friend, then it would go down in history that I had a girlfriend/affair. 

Several weeks ago, just before the Fourth of July, I told my wife that I was really done trying and that I just couldn't take it anymore. We were literally hours from signing divorce papers and she started having "second thoughts" and decided that she didn't know exactly what she wanted, but she said that she knew what she didn't want. So she finally called her future employer 4 states away (back home where we grew up and where her male friend lives) and told them that she wasn't moving there after all (she had a job lined up the restarting in Aug). Moving was all part of her escape plan - much of which I discovered by eavesdropping on conversations between my wife and her Aunt while she was recovering from her plastic surgery. She also called her male friend and told him that he was a distraction and that she didn't like the way that others were perceiving their relationship. According to her, he was very upset and said something along the lines of "women like you don't come along very often, if you do get a divorce, I want to be first in line for you"...so yeah, was there someone else? Sort of.


----------



## somethingnewmaybe (May 12, 2013)

Mine left after the tummy tuck too. The issue isn't you as much as it's them. Why the hell can't people just communicate... oh that's right, it's easier to run away


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

You are going about this all wrong by trying to convince her to stay. Your begging and pleading, and your reasoning with why it would be better are just driving her farther away.

You have a lot of issues to work on that need professional counseling: why are you seeking other women? What in your past leads you to seek happiness in other relationships rather than within yourself? This is not about sex, this is about something far deeper. 

If you don't get help, no matter what happens in this marriage, you will just end up repeating the patterns, and will float through life dependent on another person for your own happiness and end up abusing them in some manner (yes, you have in some sense abused your wife with your wandering eyes). Work on yourself first and foremost and quit worrying about your marriage for now.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Hello Friends. I'm sorry for not responding to my own thread for such a long time. I did read your responses and I sincerely thank you for taking the time to not only read my story but to also offer your perspective on things. If there is one thing that I have learned since my previous post, its that I need to COMPLETELY remove other women from the equation as I go through this extremely delicate crossroads of my life. Thank you Arendt for calling me out on that one. It was good advice and something that I really needed to hear at the time. I have made conscious steps to eliminate this sort of "noise" from the equation.

Ok...so where are we now? Well, shortly after my last post around the middle of July, my wife and I decided to move back in together, and to "just make it work". I was able to telecommute and "work from home" so it provided a nice change of pace in our family dynamic. Now, instead of me leaving the house to go to work everyday, it was her who was working outside of the home. This allowed me to wrap up my work day around 5 or 5:30pm each day and to have dinner waiting on the table when my wife got home with the kids around 6-6:15. This went on for a couple of months and things felt like they were getting better...and then...we got a dog. We had talked for years about getting a puppy, but with kids and everything else that was going on in our lives, it was never the right time. Well, we took the plunge and got a puppy. Our new relationship and dynamic was put to the test almost immediately. My family has always had dogs. My mother has always been a HUGE dog person - dog shows, obediance, agility, you name it. Anyways, so naturally, I begin to train the dog. Oh boy, I thought our marriage was going to end on the first night of "crate training". She wanted to the puppy to sleep IN THE BED with us. At one point, I just gave in. I was like "forget it, training a dog isnt more important that our marriage". At this point, she had left the bedroom and was sleeping in another room. I went in and assured her that SHE was more important than any method of dog training. I convinced her to come back to bed and put the puppy in bed with us. About an hour later, the pupy fell OFF our 4 foot tall bed onto the hardwood floors and about killed herself...seriously lucky that she didnt break a leg or something. Anyways, my wife was now fine with putting the puppy back in the crate - where she slept peacefully for the rest of the night (and every night since then). 

I didnt mean to get off topic with a "dog training" story, but I think its important because this is really the first time I asserted myself since rejoining the family - and it didnt go too well. My wife deeply ressents my mother and she thinks that my way of training a dog is "my mom's way" of training a dog.

Since then, we've muddled along. We've tried not to arugue too much. We've managed to go out on some date nights...probably once a month.

In August, my wife gave me a new wedding ring inscribed with the word "AGAIN"...meaning that she would marry me "again" if we met for the first time today. I dont know how true that is, but its a nice gesture. lol

I started working out. Going to the gym 3-4 times per week (usually in the mornings so that I dont spend time away from the family)

Over the past couple of months, however, we've not been happy. The bitterness, critisicm, and snapping has returned. She jumps to conclusions and assumes the worst intentions in my interactions with her. If she cooks something and I ask where she got the recipe, she assumes that I am implying that she somehow did it wrong...when in reality, it was tasty and I just wanted to know if I could read the recipe.

And its with great sadness to report that our s-life is worse than its ever been. My advances have been rejected so many times that I have completely stopped trying to initiate s**. When we do have s**, its completely on her terms. If she doesnt climax (which she does 9 out of 10 times), then she gets mad at me. In the last month, we've had s** two and a half times....well, thats a strange number isnt it. The first time, it was pretty good. The very next day, she initiated it again. She didnt embrace me, or kiss me, or anything like that. She basically just said, if you get a shower, I'll have s** with you. No foreplay, just straight s**. About half way through, I could tell that she just wasnt into it AT ALL. I asked her if she was ok. I tried to be delicate and make sure she was comfortable. She ended up pushing me off of her. It was terrible ending like that. I just got dressed and went to bed. About a week later, she came home from work, took off her clothes, brought me into the bedroom, and locked the door. It was a quickie. Again no foreplay. She didnt climax. I guess that was about 2 weeks ago. No action since then. So, yeah...2 and a half.

but thats not the worst experience. The absolutely worst was about 7-8 weeks ago. I wont go into details, but it ended badly with her actually striking/hitting me and cursing at me because I couldnt stop myself from going to o-town before she was ready. It was terrible.

For the past couple of weeks, I've been feeling bad about things. Im not happy and Im seeing my wife do things that show me that she is also not happy. Like...when she gets home from work, she immediately goes to the bedroom and locks herself away. She will come out to eat dinner and help get the kids in bed, but then she goes right back in there. I just want to chill on the couch and watch some TV together, but she wont have it. She says the shows I watch are dumb and she just needs time by herself. I've also noticed that she is starting to gain back the weight that she worked so hard to lose before her plastic surgery. I dont care about the weight gain, but when I see her eating a "second dinner" at 10pm, I know that she is eating because she is unhappy.

For the past couple of weeks, the thought of separation is ALWAYS on my mind. I feel like I WANT to be separated. My wife doesnt make me feel good about myself, and I do not make her feel good about herself. Its like we cripple each other just by our mutual presence. About a week ago, I told her that I was really worried about our marriage. She told me I was being dramatic and that she didnt have time and couldnt handle any more stress being piled on her. Last night, I brought it up again. I told her that I was worried about our marriage and that I knew that neither one of us were really happy. I told her that I almost felt guilty for going through such heartache and acrobatics to keep her from divorcing me during the first 6 months of 2013 only to have come back to what appears to be our status quo unhappy marriage. I think that our separation over the spring/summer of 2013 was tougher on her than she thought it would be. Having to manage the kids and a full time job, etc. I think they ate out literally every single night. She had no time to cook because of her job. Anyways, my point here is that I believe that she is now content to live in an unhappy marriage. I think she honestly believes that being married sucks but so does being apart. Last night, we also talked about our "needs". Apparently a big "need" that she has right now if for me to basically just leave her alone and allow her to lock herself away and have her alone time. I dont see how fullfiling this "need" of hers is going to make us closer or repair our marriage. We also talked about MY "needs". I "need" s**. I need to feel closeness and intimacy. She told me that s** does not interest her at all. She said that she has no desire for me. I told her that it was unfair that I couldnt initiate s**, but that she could be as abrupt in her initiations as she wanted. She told me that even when she does this, she doesnt really want it - rather, she is just "giving in" to try to keep me satisfied a couple times a month. She said that if she went on a date with someone else that she would be aroused and want it, but she just didnt have those desires for me. That just kills me. I've even been going to the gym for the past 4-5 months to try to make myself for appealing to her. She also said that if I wanted to leave, she wasnt going to stop me or convince me to stay - to me, that says a lot.

I feel like my head is in a much more clear place than the last time I posted here. Im not in a panic or cricis mode. I feel like I am seeing things clearly now. Getting a divorce is going to be hard. Having 2 kids (9 and 3) is going to make it even harder, but I dont know what else to do. We are not a healthy family right now.

I'd love to hear your advice and comments. Sorry for the novel.


----------



## sadbuthopeful (Jan 1, 2014)

Jonas,

I'm brand new here and have not even started my own thread yet, so maybe I'm out of line here, but I feel I need to comment on your situation. 

You are with the wrong woman. I think you've known that for a long time. The way you both ended up together married describes two lost souls who were lonely during college and were never really all that compatible in the first place. You never even really celebrated your marriage. Did you really love her from the start? I'm sorry to tell you this, but your relationship reeks of co-dependency. I know this may be hard to hear, but you both need to understand this to grow and find your own happiness. Your wife sounds like she is starting to struggle with this awareness herself and trying to discover her own identity. It may not be fully conscious in her. You are not really the problem for her, and she for you, although you are enabling her by not enforcing appropriate emotional boundaries. You both need to be honest with yourselves and your own needs. If they are not being met in this relationship, and there is serious incompatibilities, then a separation is wise. Your sex drives are very incompatible. You will never be happy here unless something changes. I know that for a lot of women, a feeling of emotional closeness often drives their physical attraction to you, but what you have described in the awkward dating conversations, etc between the two of you, she is not getting that from you. Is that your fault or her fault? Probably neither. It could be just some incompatibilities in your personalities. However, if the two of you are not being authentic towards each other, then you definitely won't ever achieve real emotional intimacy. If you can achieve the emotional intimacy, your wife's sex drive might change over night. Who knows? I will leave you with this one suggestion. Sit down with your wife one night and tell her that you know she is struggling with the marriage and her feelings and that you understand that you are both going thru some changes. Start talking about co-dependency and your history of how you met and your feelings of ambivalence at the time you got married. Take a chance and be honest about it. Tell her the things you adore about her, the things that bother you and how you feel the two of you could relate better. It may give her permission to be honest about her feelings as well and open up a brand new chapter in your relationship. 

Now only if I could give myself this kind of advice. 

cheers.


----------



## struggle (May 13, 2013)

Jonas it sounds like you're seeing your marriage for what it is now. The separation didn't work, and things have gone back to what they were before and WORSE. It sounds like you are very intuitive to her feelings, but what about yours? It's time to start putting your feelings first now, because she obviously has no regard for them.

To put it bluntly, if she wants to lock herself away in the bedroom and not deal with you or the marriage situation, fine. But now you need to make your own move, talk to a divorce attorney, and find yourself a therapist. Stat. She thinks you're never going to leave, and she thinks its ok to treat you like sh*t, and she's wrong. She's used to treating you that way because you put up with it in fear of the the big D word. Your fear encouraged her behavior. She blames you for everything, and that will never ever change. You can't force her to think differently. She talks a bunch of crap about how she won't care if you leave, but that's just to hurt your feelings, and maybe she's subconsciously hoping you will do it because she doesn't have the guts to. Make the move when you're ready to be done...like done done. Don't do it just to scare her back into acting like she cares, because it will be the same thing.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Jonas,

Are you aware she violates your personal boundaries and you're in the habit of folding?

Before you decide "she's the wrong woman" (which she may be), I would recommend changing the dynamic of your relationship.

You've never "really" tried that.

There are many men here who are growing quite adept at it.


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Jonas,
> 
> Are you aware she violates your personal boundaries and you're in the habit of folding?
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Jonas,

This is the place to start. 2 books for you to read. She doesn't really need to know you are reading them for the time being.

No More Mr Nice Guy - free download http://7chan.org/lit/src/Robert_Glover_-_No_More_Mr_Nice_Guy.pdf

Then read Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay. Not a freebie.

When you get a little into it, feel free to give us your thoughts on it and the view of the relationship from 50,000 feet.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Thanks guys. I'm about 50 pages into "no more Mr Nice Guy". Yep, that's me. I'm still not sure where the book is headed. Not sure whether the point is to fix my marriage or give me the courage to leave it. 

I've spent the last several days/nights away from home due to work requirements and I returned home last night. While I was out of town, I had a couple of phone conversations with my wife. I repeated back to her some of the things she had said in the conversation I mentioned in my last post. She back peddled and said that I was taking things out of context. Now she is acting like everything is fine. She keeps telling me that she loves me. She even tried to "hold/spoon" me in bed this morning which she NEVER does. She usually bites my head off if I touch her in the mornings. I have admittedly been standoffish and cold to her since returning home. I end phone conversations without saying "I love you" and intentionally did not hug or kiss her when she left for work with the kids this morning. It was obvious since I hugged and kissed the kids and told them how much I loved them while buckling them into their seats. 

I don't know what I am doing at the moment. I just have this feeling of "leave while I am still clearly unhappy". It's like an Alzheimer's patient trying to write his memoirs during his lucid moments. I feel lucid at the moment. I don't want to fall back into the roller coaster cycle. I just want off. But then there is a part of me that sees that maybe I finally got through to my wife. Maybe she finally recognizes that she isn't meeting my needs and she is actually trying now. Gosh, it's so frustrating. 

I've even prayed for "a sign" to help me move forward in the right direction. I've seen no burning bushes yet though. 

Yesterday at work, my boss let me know about my bonus that I'll be getting in feb. Remember, this is the same bonus that my wife used last year for her plastic surgery. For the first time in my marriage/career, I've not told my wife about the bonus. I know I'll have to eventually, but I don't even want to share the good news with her. It's less about sharing the money and more about just not wanting to share the news with her. Is that weird or what?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Jonas said:


> Thanks guys. I'm about 50 pages into "no more Mr Nice Guy". Yep, that's me. I'm still not sure where the book is headed. Not sure whether the point is to fix my marriage or give me the courage to leave it.


The courage to do both.


----------



## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Jonas said:


> Not sure whether the point is to fix my marriage or give me the courage to leave it.


You can't fix a marriage. Nobody can. You can only work on yourself.

Jonas, what does your wife do while she is locked away in her bedroom?

There are some red flags intermixed with what you have written. The verbal abuse, being struck/hit because she didn't orgasm, the push/pull dynamics...what you call roller-coaster.

I'm assuming she is the only woman you've 'known'. High school sweethearts?

What were your childhoods like? Any abuse? Molestation? Alcoholic parents?


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Jonas, what does your wife do while she is locked away in her bedroom?
> 
> There are some red flags intermixed with what you have written. The verbal abuse, being struck/hit because she didn't orgasm, the push/pull dynamics...what you call roller-coaster.
> 
> ...


She doesnt actually "lock" herself in the bedroom. Typically the door is wide open. When the door IS closed, its not locked. When she is in there, she normally just lays across the bed sideways so that her feet are near the electric wall heater and messes around on her phone - usually iPhone games and facebook. I seriously do not suspect any sort of extramarital activities at this point. I honestly think that she is just tired from a long day of work and would rather be laying in bed "zoning out" than hanging out with me on the couch in the living room.

To clear up the whole "being hit/struck" thing. It wasnt so much because she didnt climax...it was more because I couldnt stop myself from climaxing. I pulled out and tried to stop myself but couldnt and it ended up on her back. She thought I did this on purpose and she thought it was gross and disrespectful. I didnt want to get into those details, but thats what happpened.

Yes, we were childhood sweethearts. We met with we were 15 years old (I am now 36)...its crazy that we've been together longer than we've been apart. And you are also correct in that neither one of us has never "been" with anyone else.

Childhoods...oh boy. Yeah, we both had some childhoods. Let me give you the highlights

Me: 
- Mom and Dad divorced when I was 2 years old
- Mom remarried a creep that exposed me to hardcore p-graphy when I was 4 years old. I literally remember playing with myself around age 4-5.
-creep step-dad also showed me how to put on condoms when I was 4-5 years old
-creep step dad also encouraged me and my classmates to go "skinny dipping" during my sleepover birthday party when I turned 7 or 8.
-I saw my real dad every other weekend and we never really had much of a relationship. He was a work-a-holic and seemed to always put me last on the list
-Mom finally divorced the creep step-dad and married a pretty good guy when I was 10-11 years old

Her:
- Her family moved around a lot when she was a kid
- Her father was an alcoholic
- Her mother and father had an extremely abusive relationship (verbally and physically)
- She was molested by a neighbor boy when she was young...I think he was 11-12 and she was 7-8.
- Her dad died when she was 15 (shortly after we started dating)


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Jonas said:


> Me:
> - Mom and Dad divorced when I was 2 years old
> - Mom remarried a creep that exposed me to hardcore p-graphy when I was 4 years old. I literally remember playing with myself around age 4-5.
> -creep step-dad also showed me how to put on condoms when I was 4-5 years old
> ...


Wow

Have either of you been to therapy?


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Wow
> 
> Have either of you been to therapy?


I went to counceling for a couple months when my wife found out that I was into p-no-graphy. She was convinced that I was addicted - which I probably was (maybe even still am).

Anyways, the only real breakthrough I had though that counceling was that I found the courage to confront my mother and tell her about the exposure/abuse that I suffered as a child and told her how hurt I was that she didnt do more to "protect me". It took some pretty blunt and awkward conversations for my mom to acknowledge that I REALLY WAS ABUSED.

My wife has never been to any sort of therapy.

I've brought up the idea of marital councelling several times, but my wife always asks "just when do you propose that we go to this counceling?" implying that since we have 2 kids, no family support nearby, and both work full time jobs that our going to counceling is just not in the cards.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

People make time when something is important to them.

Schedule the visit.

Inform her of when it is.

If she isn't interested, you go without her.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

That's good advice. I guess indeed to find the "will" to go to counseling as well. I just feel so outdone right now. It's so hard to open your mind and heart back up.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Jonas said:


> That's good advice. I guess indeed to find the "will" to go to counseling as well. I just feel so outdone right now. It's so hard to open your mind and heart back up.


Jonas,

Job #1 is fixing you.

This will be difficult to fathom, but don't worry about her right now.

Let it go.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Sigh. How do I let it go when I'm still living in the same house and she is trying so hard to reel me back in right now. I feel terrible keeping up the "cold" act. 

So. You are saying to schedule a couples therapy session and if she doesn't show up, then just treat it as counseling for myself? What if she DOES show up? That's what I meant by having a hard time opening myself back up. When two people go to counseling together, don't they normally WANT to work things out?


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Jonas said:


> Sigh. How do I let it go when I'm still living in the same house and she is trying so hard to reel me back in right now. I feel terrible keeping up the "cold" act.
> 
> So. You are saying to schedule a couples therapy session and if she doesn't show up, then just treat it as counseling for myself? What if she DOES show up? That's what I meant by having a hard time opening myself back up. When two people go to counseling together, don't they normally WANT to work things out?


Here's the thing.

It will sound strange, but right now.... you really have no idea what you want or who you are.

Childhood neglect and abuse victims get the completely unfair burden of unraveling themselves.

What I want you to do is observe her. When she speaks to you, take note of the emotions that well up in your chest. Are they appropriate? Are they overreactions? What is the source? Anger, distrust, etc.

Share your observations with us here.

Think of yourself @50,000 feet and you're just watching your interactions with your wife - when you're forced to interact with her.

Share the observations you make of yourself and of her with your therapist.


----------



## MSP (Feb 9, 2012)

You do realize she had an affair, right? Things are never going to fully resolve while that's left undealt with.


----------



## Tron (Jan 31, 2013)

Wise words from Conrad. Listen to them. 

Get some counseling, if not MC then IC.

Where is your W at with resentment? I get the sense she is carrying a lot of it.

As far as the crush, how long ago was that? And would you say your W has truly forgiven you for it or is she still carrying that around and beating you with it? You realize that the fact that you carried on longer and didn't end it right away is like burying the knife even deeper. What else have you done to show you are sorry about what happened? Remorseful?


----------



## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Jonas,

Dysfunctional man + dysfunctional woman= dysfunctional relationship

You won't have a functional, healthy relationship with anyone until you become an emotionally healthy adult. This is why Conrad says to "fix you".

Both of you had dysfunctional childhoods, including sexual abuse, abandonment, and addicts for parents.

Neither of you had good role models to pattern your relationship after. 

Neither of you has had a LTR with anyone else, but yourselves.

Look at the reason you gave for getting married: It was either that or break up. (?????!!!!!) From an outsider's perspective, that's insane! Why not just continue to date?

So, like Conrad is advising, your first priority and focus is fixing you. Your marriage is already in the sh!tter. Don't worry about that. Focus on you, and being a good father. Get IC. Figure out your FOO issues. Read. Exercise.

Observe your wife's behavior from 50K. Don't react. Observe.

Stay with us.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Our first Marriage counseling session is scheduled for tomorrow. My wife agreed to come but she is pissed. I don't get it. She knows that we aren't happy. She admits that she and the children are happier and more peaceful when I am away, but she thinks Im a selfish idiot. She calls me selfish a lot when we have relationship discussions. She told me that she will go to counseling but that she thinks that counseling is just a way for ME to rationalize leaving my family so that I don't feel guilty for it. She is sure the kids will be affected and she calls me selfish for even bringing up MY needs. In spite of all this, she says that she is willing to accept my selfishness and try to make it through these tough times. She says everyone goes through hard times - especially with kids and no family living nearby. She swears that if I leave, eventually my labido will settle down and I'll look back on the family that I left and realize what a stupid, selfish mistake I made. 

I've literally been dealing with this for more than a year. It's killing me. She is the one that left ME in the first place. What is going on here? I'm so tired of thinking about it and dealing with it. Sometimes I feel like I am the one who is crazy.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Jonas,

Don't listen to what she says.

Watch what she does - she's attending.

This is her responding to your leadership.

If you are tired of thinking about it, stop thinking about it.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Counseling session delayed until next Thursday. The first counselor I contacted ended up being "out of
Network" and it would have cost me a fortune.


----------



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Jonas said:


> Counseling session delayed until next Thursday. The first counselor I contacted ended up being "out of
> Network" and it would have cost me a fortune.


We'll have to discuss that particular aspect of national healthcare in the political forum.

Make sure you let her know.

Cool, firm, dispassionate


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

I really thought that this turmoil would/should be over by now.

I can’t possibly recount everything that has happened since my last post, but I can try to hit a few highlights. I guess the first thing to note is that shortly after my last entry, I made a marriage counseling appointment for us. It was a marathon of an appointment; I think it lasted around two and a half hours. It was weird; it was almost like I tried to recap everything that Ive been through in the last year and a half to try to convince an innocent bystander of how unhappy we are/were/still-are. It was exhausting, but we both had a chance to say what we wanted. At the end of the session, I learned that the counselor with whom we had been talking was just a router type person. She was basically taking notes and was going to then turn me/us over to a dedicated therapist. This was really disappointing for me. She did offer some advice. My wife said during the session that she wasn’t being avoidant by retreating to the bedroom every single night to bury herself in her iPhone; she said that after a long day of work, she just needs an hour or 2 to herself to unwind. We agreed to 1 hour (not that anyone is really timing of enforcing it). We also talked about the “history” that we have as a couple – as a family. We talked about how we had been together since the age of 15. We talked about how I was there for her when her dad died. We talked about college and hard times during our marriage and all agreed that there had to be “some reason” why we were still together after all these years and all these hard times. After the session, Jane relayed something that she had told her mom; during the session, she said that she realized that “we are what we are”…it was weird, I sort of get what she meant, but not completely. After this, it was like she was resolved. She started consciously trying to spend time with me in the evenings. The number of arguments that we had decreased sharply. One time right after our counseling session, we even managed to have some very passionate s**; we hadn’t kissed like that since high school – it was amazing; I felt wanted for the first time in a long time. Since then, our s** life has been pretty status quo. Our pattern seems to be no s** for weeks, then her period, then we have s** for 1-2 days in a row once her period is over, then nothing for the rest of the month. As an experiment, I started keeping track. In the past 3 weeks, we had s*** once when she decided to initiate. I’ve approached her and been rejected 4 times, and I’ve taken care of myself 22 times. One realization that I’m finally having is that our libidos are EXTREMELY out of wack.

Also since my last entry, we started talking more seriously to Jane’s mom about coming up and living in the guest cabin. There was a slight wrinkle in those plans when her mom’s sociopath closet transvestite boyfriend decided to come up ahead of her and help get things settled in. I knew something was amiss with this fellow and it didn’t take long to prove it. Internet Browser history can tell you a LOT about a person. Anyways, the prospect of having some family nearby was really exciting to both of us. We talked a lot about how we would finally be able to go on dates, and do more things together without the kids in toe. We had a friend over for dinner one night and we started talking about hobbies and ended up on the topic of whitewater kayaking (our friend is an expert boater and has been teaching kayaking and rescue for 20 years). He told us that if we bought some basic gear, he would help us get started. I was so excited – this is the sort of thing that is right up my alley. I immediately started looking for good deals on gear and before long, I had both of us outfitted with boats, paddles, pfds, helmets, etc. The first time I tried to get Jane on the water was memorial day. At this point, I had been actively kayaking for about a month and had learned a thing or 2 – I had even had about 6-7 hours of private instruction. I could not tell Jane anything. I wanted to make sure her boat outfitting was adjusted so that it fit her and she resisted everything I tried to tell her or do for her. She refused to put on her lifejacket. She refused to put on the skirt. She even refused to sit in the kayak with right way with her knees locked into the thigh braces. She just sort of paddled around the lake waiting to bite my head off if I tried to say anything to her about it. I let it go. Several weeks went by and fathers day was coming up. Jane asked me what I wanted for father day and I told her that on the Saturday before Father’s day, I wanted to go kayaking with her – she agreed but was really apprehensive about the whole thing. I ended up getting us hooked up with a paddle trip sponsored by a local paddling club specifically for beginners. It was perfect. The leader of the trip was a woman in her late 40s. I did a lot of research on the stretch of river that we were to run to make sure that it would be safe and not too challenging for a first timer – everything checked out and we were set to go. It was a two and a half hour drive to the river. The drive was ok. Nice at first, but turned a little confrontational when I decided to listen to some music. She kept telling me to turn it down. We talked about the band I was trying to listen to and I told her that this group had become one of my favorites over the last year or so and told her about how I really related to a lot of the lyrics. She went on to basically make fun of the band, how they sounded, and actually even made fun of me for liking them. Now, maybe I am just being overly sensitive, but that **** just rubs me the wrong way. I even told her that she was being disrespectful to me and that if ANY of her other friends were trying to share something with her in this way, that there is no chance that she would treat them the way she treated me. Anyways, one thing Ive learned over the past 18 months is to just let some things go. Lol….let it go man. So I did…finally, we arrived at the river and met up with our group. Jane immediately started complaining about all the gear and how constricting it was. We finally got her in her boat and the trip leader came over to help because she could tell from a distance that Jane was resisting every single thing that I told her. The trip leader helped Jane with a wet exit and then we started down the river. Jane flipped and swam on the very first rapid. She was mad at me and accused me of getting her into a situation that she wasn’t ready for. The rapids were not dangerous – we are talking about class I/I+ rapids. After this, the trip leader asked me to trade pupils with her. So Judy (the trip leader) paired up with Jane and I paired up with some other random dude who had never been down a river before. I gave him some good pointers, he listened, and we got along. Judy finally got Jane’s confidence back up and by the end of the day, she said that she had a good time. BUT, when we got home and people asked Jane if she had fun, she didn’t hesitate when telling them that she DID NOT have a good time. Oh well. I tried. How do you introduce someone to something you enjoy when they don’t really want to take part in it. I guess you don’t. We did have a nice dinner after the paddle trip.

What is bothering me right now:
1.	Jane wants to start a business. We are mortgaged to the max; I don’t want to take any risk right now and frankly don’t want to buy anything or do anything that is going to commit me one way or the other. We’ve made so many bad decisions with money over the years, I feel stifled; I don’t want to do anything. I just want to pay off what we owe and stabilize.
2.	Jane treats me differently than everyone else in her life. If she is on the phone and I need to ask her a question, she refuses to put anyone on hold to speak to me. When I am the one on the phone with her, she will put ME on hold at the drop of a hat – everyone is more important than me and my engagement
3.	I cannot teach Jane anything. There are some things that I am really good at and know a lot about. Anytime I try to show Jane how to do something, she becomes extremely defensive and resistant. Most recent example is our kayaking trip. Jane doesn’t look up to me or trust anything I say.
4.	Jane doesn’t make me feel good about myself. Its not that she beats up on me or tears me down; its more like that she is just indifferent. I don’t ever hear her telling her friends or family anything good about me. She’s not my friend on facebook. She never posts pictures of me or even of us together. Im made to believe that doing things that I enjoy is “selfish”
5.	Jane is not happy and is ALWAYS tired. She is letting herself go again. Taking care of herself is not a priority. How is it possible that she had all the will and motivation in the world to loss weight, exercise, and get plastic surgery when she was leaving me and now that she isn’t walking out the door, its just not a priority for her.
6.	S** is a touchy subject. We are having s** around 2 times per month. It feels like a sexless marriage, but I guess we are technically doing it more frequently that the 10x/year definition of “sexless”. I feel that I am unable to initiate s**. Jane tells me that she doesn’t like the way that I touch her; she says that its not “manly”. She says that s** for her is entertainment and not some epic emotional connection. She even told me that I should stop trying to touch her romantically when I want to initiate s** and just tell her point blank that I want to f***. That just feels terrible. I find myself retreating more and more. Most of the time, I don’t even want to try to initiate because of the likely possibility of rejection. Its easier just to avoid it altogether.
7.	Jane’s mother: I feel like Jane and I had a bit of a honeymoon period between February and May when we were dreaming and romanticizing the idea of her mother coming to life here with us. We talked about all the time we would get to spend together and about how awesome it would be to finally have some help with the kids. We talked about how we would save money by not having to have day care, etc. Well, Jane’s mom arrived about 3 weeks ago, stayed for 2 weeks, and left to go back home to Florida. The time she was here was not restful or peaceful at all. Jane and her mom were spending money like water on the blockhouse (This is what we call the small little guest cabin that we rent from the neighbor behind us…its made out of cinder blocks, so it’s the “blockhouse”’). This in and of itself was a big stressor for me, but there wasn’t much I could do about it. While she was here, it felt like both Jane and her mom went out of their way to find fault with me. I tried to make plans to do some fun things, but it wasn’t suiting for them. I tried to cook and it wasn’t suiting to them. Bottom line is that me and Jane’s mother don’t really get along. After all the crap Jane has told her family about me, none of them approach me with favor. My reputation precedes me in a way that Ive never seen or felt before. It feels like her mom is antagonizing me and stirring up beef so that I can fulfill my destiny of being a complete a-hole when she is around. Nobody gives 2 sh*ts about how I feel. The other thing about Jane’s mom is that she is NOT the built in Nanny that we dreamed of. She cannot handle our 3 year old at all. When she was here, she did not keep the kids out of my hair so that I could work (I work from home). Half the time, they were all up under me. AND she couldn’t get our 3 year old to take a nap, so I had to put him down. I don’t know how else to explain it, but the vibe between me, Jane, and her mom is just not good. Jane is completely pre-occupied with catering to her mom. I seem to be pre-occupied with trying to clamp down on money and while at the same time sharing my feelings with Jane’s mom in some weird attempt to either bond with her or explain “my side of the story”. Her mom then sells me down the river and then Jane comes back and tells me that I’m not doing myself any favors by bad-mouthing her to her mom.
8.	The Vacation Situation. Jane and I have been talking about taking a vacation for a while now. We finally agreed that we should go to Disney in Oct. Time was ticking by and we agreed that we needed to start planning if we were going to do it. I told Jane to let me do some research and that we would talk about options and cost. Well, 6 hours later, Jane had already called Disney and priced the biggest baddest mack daddy Disney vacation that money can buy…oh and her mom was coming. I tried to have some rationale conversations with Jane about whether we really needed club level and whether we really needed the deluxe dining package. She bit my head off everytime I brought it up. I don’t enjoy planning or going on vacations with Jane. I feel stifled and crippled when she is involved in anything I do.
9.	I feel hopeless. Why are we staying together? Jane doesn’t enjoy my company. I don’t enjoy Jane’s company. I feel like I end up taking out my marital aggressions on my kids. If there were no kids in the picture, there is no way that Jane would want to be married to me. Vice versa. We are staying together for the sake of the kids. That’s the part that has become really apparent to me over the past couple of months.
10.	Jane’s relationship with mother and stepfather. Not much to say here except that there is no relationship. She hates them. They basically sided with me during our separation last summer and Jane didn’t like that one bit.

The biggest question remains…am I just crazy? Why cant I be happy? Would I really be happier by myself? Getting to see my kids 4-5 days a month….would that fulfill me? Would that make me proud of myself? I am so tired and exasperated.

The part that is really weird is that I remember feeling almost the exact same way in college. BEFORE we were married…BEFORE we had kids. I knew something wasn’t right, but I didn’t have the balls to end the relationship. Wtf is wrong with me.

About a week and a half ago, my wife asked me to join her for lunch. I was extremely bothered and she asked what was wrong. I told her that I was still having a hard time with our marriage and how we treated each other. She thinks its all me. Sometimes I do too.

For several weeks, I had been planning a 5 day camping and kayaking trip. I went camping and kayaking from Friday until Tuesday…I had originally planned to be gone until Wednesday, but Jane called me on Monday evening and was all upset about me being away. Called me selfish, etc etc. So I came home a day early as a show of good faith. I had a great time and truth be told, I was dog tired. Im not sure that I could have paddled another day anyways. During the conversation when Jane became so upset with me, she also told me that she had a sort of “falling out” with her mother too. Basically, Jane recognized that her mom is and has been on a course of never ending bad/wrong decisions. She is still staying with the sociopath gay transsexual guy and making several other bad familial decisions that I wont go into here. Jane basically told her mom not to come up here and live near us. I guess I was supposed to have been more engaged and receiving of this news, but honestly, it didn’t surprise me. Plus, I was eating dinner out with other people and I couldn’t really sit down and have a 1 hour conversation with Jane about her mom. I really don’t think that this was a huge deal, but Jane did get her feelings hurt a little.

On the way home from the trip, I felt good. The internal conflict and feelings of marital consternation had faded a little and I was ready to be home and “get over myself”. Jane greeted me warmly and we got off to a nice start. She was on her period so s** was not an option. I stayed home with the kids on Wednesday and we had a great day. We had a lazy morning and then went to the creek to go swimming once my youngest woke up from his nap. We had a really nice time. It seems like the boys are so easy to deal with when its just me and Jane isn’t around. Interestingly enough, I think that she feels the same way.I worked on Thursday and Friday was the 4th of July. For the Fourth, we started out by going to the local parade, we ate lunch at the café, bought the kids a snowboard, and then went to an amusement park for some rides and to wait for the fireworks. We had a great day…so much different than last Fourth of July which was filled with rain, heartache, and indecision. As we were waiting for fireworks in the parking lot of the amusement park, I poured myself a beer and settled in to relax. Jane mentioned her unhappiness with me drinking, but I didn’t really worry about it. When I finished my first beer (technically 2 beers out of a big cup) and went for a refill, Jane said something along the lines of “I cant believe you are drinking…I figured you might want to get with me tonight”….basically implying that by choosing to drink, I was choosing to forego relations with her that evening. I went ahead and poured the beer…nursed it for a while and ended up pouring most of it out. I was far from intoxicated and drove us home…it was late, we were both tired, and we went to bed right away.

Saturday was an interesting day. Jane slept late until about 10 or so. We ate grilled sandwiches for lunch and I put our youngest down for an early nap. We had talked all morning about going to the creek that afternoon after the youngest woke up from his nap. I really like going to the creek, so I was excited and ready to go. Once the youngest was down for his nap, Jane and I were watching some renovation shows on the couch together and things felt good. After one of the shows was over, I asked Jane if she wanted to go down to the block house to watch TV…she said “why would I want to go down there?”…I said “well, it would free us up to do ‘other stuff’ if we wanted to”….she rolled her eyes in disgust and said something like “I not getting with you. We’ve got kids, I haven’t had a bath…what would possibly give you the idea that we should sneak off and get together down there”. I didn’t respond right away. I didn’t get upset; I didn’t act standoffish. After about 2-3 minutes, I confronted Jane….I said, “you know, the way that you responded to me when I tried to initiate s** with you really hurt my feelings”. She was defensive and went on to tell me that my timing was terrible and that s** was all I ever thought about. Well, fortunate for me, I’ve been keep a simple log and it had been 2 weeks and 6 days since I last approached Jane for s** and was turned down. I just sort of said ok and let it go. When the youngest woke up from his nap, I was ready to hit the creek with the family. Jane helped get the boys in their swimsuits, but then told me that she wasn’t going to go. This really rubbed me the wrong way. I was upset and disappointed all at the same time. She then told me that “I was still mad because she didn’t hop on my d*** earlier” and that all I cared about were MY needs. I was pretty ticked off at this point. I told her that she didn’t have to worry about that anymore because I was done approaching her for s** and that I would take care of my own needs from now on. She responded, “that’s real mature”. Anyways, as I was still trying to get the kids ready to go swimming, I noticed that now she has on her swimsuit…”Boys, get in the car” she says. I told her that I wasn’t ready yet and that I had to clean some things out of my car before we could load up. So, she puts the kids in HER car and takes off for the creek…telling me to come in my own car if/when Im ready. Wtf?! Well, I did go, I swam, the kids swam, we tried to put on a good face and make the best of it, but what a day. I still don’t know if I should have or not, but I apologized 2 or 3 times that afternoon and said that I was sorry that I “ruined the day” and mentioned that were doing so good before the fighting started.

Since then, we’ve been cordial. No more fighting and Jane spent most of the day yesterday talking and dreaming about building a house together. BUILDING A HOUSE TOGETHER I said….holy moly. Somebody is crazy here. Its either me or her….maybe both of us.

By the way, we never returned to counseling after that first session, but I am thinking of making an appointment for myself. I think I could benefit from some individual counseling at this point.

I’m still hanging in there.


----------



## Arendt (Mar 25, 2013)

Too long to read all of it, but the kayaking thing sticks out:



> 3.	I cannot teach Jane anything. There are some things that I am really good at and know a lot about. Anytime I try to show Jane how to do something, she becomes extremely defensive and resistant. Most recent example is our kayaking trip. Jane doesn’t look up to me or trust anything I say.


Why are you forcing her to go kayaking when she clearly does not want to do so? Maybe she doesn't want to be taught? Have you actually talked with her about it. Everything I read is you being excited about it and dragging her along, and getting b!tchy when she doesn't enjoy it. Maybe she has her reasons for not liking it. Have you asked her what she would like to do together beyond your activities? Maybe she would like to learn to do something from scratch together?

It sounds to me like she feels that the camping and kayaking are competing with her for your attention. I can see why she might not want to be involved in an activity that she feels takes you away from her for long stretches and which she doesn't enjoy really.

Can you find a mutually agreed upon activity to do together? 

She suggested something to you that she would like to do together. Maybe building a house is not feasible, but maybe she would like to build something with you. Maybe the two of you can learn how to do some things like that together. Maybe you don't need to be the teacher and her the student, placing her in a subordinate role all the time. 

What about volunteering for Habitat for Humanity to build a house for somebody else?

You are in a low sex marriage but not a no sex marriage. She's holding back deliberately I bet, but not completely. Your comment about "never" approaching her for sex and taking care of yourself "from now on" is text book overgeneralization. I understand the frustration.


----------



## bmark33 (Jun 20, 2013)

All I can say is if you end up divorced and you want your kids more than 4-5 days a month then make sure you get it. They're your kids too and they need you as much as they need their mother.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Jonas,

Two things: 

1) You write very long posts, get some good feedback from people who are trying to help, but then drop out of your own thread for months at a time. Then you come back with an even longer, more miserable update. You should stick around so you can benefit from the good advice you're getting.

2) You are clearly miserable, your wife is miserable. I think it's time to pull the plug on this marriage. I think you already know this, but you just keep torturing yourself by staying.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Arendt, yeah, I'm not pushing the whole kayaking thing anymore. I still love it but I'm not pushing her at all. Also, that was just an example of many. Actually kayaking was supposed to be something that we started together, but that didn't quite work out as planned. 

We do enjoy some things together and I guess that's what makes this whole thing so hard. We don't hate each other. 

As far as the over generalization of me saying that I'll not try to initiate sex with her again. I may not mean it forever but I mean it right now. I'm not initiating it. I've just been turned down too many times in a row. In fact, I'm struggling with what to do the next time she engages me for sex. There is a part of me that wants to reject/withhold from her. I don't know that it would accomplish anything, but it's something that's rattling around in my head. 

Sometimes I wonder if a big part of my happiness revolves around sex. Is that shallow? When I think about my 2 boys and the "family" that they know. How could I break that up just because I'm not getting enough sex? It seems trivial in the scheme of things.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Happy as a Clam,
Sorry for the long posts. I keep a journal and end up copy and pasting much of it here. My problem with my journal keeping is that I seem to forget to write in it when things are going well and I feel like the relationship is headed in the right direction. Which is probably also why you perceive me as being miserable. Much of the time, I'm not miserable, but not "happy" either. More like just sort of ticking along - probably pretty normal for a 36 year old married dude with 2 kids whose getting laid twice a month. I'm sure there are a lot of us out there.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

The last several days have not been terrible. Whatever mental anguish I’ve had over the last couple of days has all been in my head by my own doing; my mind is consumed with thoughts of marriage vs. separation, what that would do to my life, and whether I even know what “happy” is anymore. Perhaps this IS as good as it gets? My thoughts today have been centered on our s** life; as trivial as it sometimes seems, I feel that that is where A LOT of my marital unhappiness is coming from. I keep thinking about her rejections of my sexual advances. I keep thinking about how she sad that sex for her is not some epic emotional connection – its entertainment she says. I keep thinking about how on more than several occasions she has told me that the way I touch her doesn’t suit her – she says that its not “manly”. Im sorry but telling my wife that I want to “f*** her” as a substitute for foreplay and mental/physical stimulation is just not my style – it feels wrong. 

Since our argument over the weekend (which was spurred by her rejection of my only sexual advance in almost 3 weeks), I’ve not been “cold” per se, but I have made a conscious effort not to even think about sex with her. I’ve kept hugs (all initiated by her) short and have tried to find the right balance between being obviously standoffish and allowing her touching me to turn me on in any way. I read some other forum posts this morning on the topic of s** issues in marriages…specifically the question of whether ending a marriage due to lack of se* was a selfish thing to do. To sum up a few hours of reading in one sentence, the responses to those other threads was “Yes, its grounds to end a marriage, but seek counseling first (first individual counseling, then couples counseling)”. I guess the difference between my situation and the vanilla situation of “not enough s**” is the history of my situation. It’s not like, we had s** like crazy early in our marriage, had kids, and then the frequency suddenly dropped off. It seems more like the lack of s** in my situation is a product of the bad marriage that we’ve held together for so many years. 

I called today to get back into individual counseling and the group had undergone a bunch of changes and apparently don’t even do individual therapy any longer…so, they are referring me to another group. I feel like this is the only logical next step for me. Im going to drive myself crazy writing in my journal. I just need some dialog ya know. Pray for me guys.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Hello friends. I'm feeling better since my previous couple of posts. My wife and I have had a great couple of days. We've talked a lot and done some fun things together and some fun things apart. Had some light conversations and had some heavy ones. I told her during the course of a longer conversation that I thought that we felt differently about sex. I told her that sex was extremely important to me and I also told her that sex was more than just "sex" to me - sex is how I connect to her and I always feel the closest to her during and afterwards. I was really trying to make the point that between the intimacy/closeness aspect and my high sex drive, that sex really truly is important to me. I wasn't sure that she "got it" until this morning. I made a risky power play and I think it ended up being a home run. So we woke up slowly this morning, the kids were cooperating and playing nicely in their room. We held each other in bed. She asked me to rub her back. At this point I was obviously in the mood if you know what I mean. I tried to position myself in a way that I was "accessible". I didn't want to ruin the moment by trying to initiate and being rejected. After all, we hardly EVER have morning sex because my wife is typically pretty evil until she has her coffee. Anyways, it became clear to me that sex was not in her agenda for the morning. She could tell that I wanted it, but she was withholding. So I began to get out of bed and she said: "you're getting up? Stay in bed for a while." I told her that I might get back in bed in a little while. Then she asked "why are you getting up? Where are you going?" For some reason, I decided to answer her honestly: "if you really want to know the truth" I told her, "I'm going to masterbate". "It's something that I do almost every single morning" I went on to tell her. I was sort of expecting a fight but her response was simply "close the door and lock it". We had a great morning and it continued for the rest of the day. She left town this evening for a week long training course for her job. I'm really glad that we had a good day prior to her leaving.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

That's very positive Jonas. Glad things are looking up 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

My wife and I had good positive conversations over the phone while she was out of town. On Thursday night, she even said something along the lines of "I can't wait to get home tomorrow and get with you". She got home Friday evening. After getting kids bathed and in bed, I headed for the bathroom to take a shower and she said "if you're getting a shower for me, don't bother; I'm exhausted". I got a shower anyways. Went to bed. No lovin'. Same story Saturday night - too tired. This morning, I woke up before she did. I got up, made coffee, got milk for the kids, and put on a tv show for them. I got back into bed and tried to snuggle up to my wife - not in a sexual way; just trying to hold her. She said "get the hell off of me! You RUIN every single morning for me!". I got up, left the room, and closed the door behind me while she slept for another hour or so. I woke her up around 9:15 and told her that I was taking the boys to church. She got up, got ready, and went with us. I was admittedly standoffish during church and at lunch afterwards. My feelings were hurt. She asked me at lunch if I was in a bad mood, I said "yes" and left it at that. We got home, I put my 3 year old down for a nap, and layed down with him. We both napped until around 4 pm. When I woke up, she asked me if my nap had put me into a better mood. I told her that I was fine. She pressed and wanted to talk so we went to the bedroom, closed the door, and talked out of earshot of the kids. I told her that she had hurt my feelings. She told me that I should KNOW that she isn't a morning person and cannot be held responsible for the hateful things she may say in the mornings. She said I should know better than to approach her or even try to touch her in the mornings. "Mornings are off the table", she said "unless I initiate it" she amended. She said that I was a sex addict and that I had "a problem". She said that taking care of my sexual needs was not her responsibility. I bluntly told her in response that I AM NOT a sex addict, we just have mismatched labitos, and that it IS her responsibility as my wife to take care of my sexual needs. "I am not a sperm repository" she responded. I told her that I didn't mean it like that. I meant that as my wife, she should care about my desires and ACTUALLY WANT to take care of me in those ways. She said "do you really think that there is anyone else put there that could satisfy you sexually?" I told her that I wasn't out there looking for someone, but "yes, someone else could satisfy me in that way. I am not insatiable". I told her that I thought that we had had a breakthrough before she left town and that she finally realized that sex is how I convey and feel love. She insisted that I had a problem and that "normal" people are able to connect of so many more levels than just sex. I told her how important this was to me - not for her to just lay there and take it, but for us to really have a healthy sex life together. I told her that sex once or twice a month was a deal breaker for me. She then informed me that the previous weekend before she left town, she had done just that "I didn't want to have sex with you, but I saw you in front of me, being honest with me, and I love you, so I gave in and had sex with you. About halfway into it, I started to enjoyed it".

Neither of us were overly upset or irrational during this conversation. 

I'm anxious to get I to some individual counseling. I think what I am looking for is unrealistic though. It's almost like I want someone to say either "wow, I can't believe you are putting up with this" or "welcome to marriage, what you are struggling with is very common and people who value their family find a way to get through it"

I think both statements are good possibilities. Ugh. So tired right now.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Jonas said:


> I think what I am looking for is unrealistic though. It's almost like *I want someone to say either "wow, I can't believe you are putting up with this"* or "welcome to marriage, what you are struggling with is very common and people who value their family find a way to get through it."


Ok, I'll say it. "Wow, I can't believe you are putting up with this." No offense Jonas, but your wife is really being a jerk. The things she said to you and the way she treated you since arriving home are absolutely horrible and hurtful.

I was in a marriage kind of like yours for 20 years. I got out.

I am now in a long-term relationship with the love of my life. Our sex life is great. We are well-matched in our libidos, and neither one of us would ever DREAM of saying something remotely as hateful as what your wife said to you. ("You RUIN every morning for me!!!) Heartless, cruel, despicable...

Personally, I would pull the plug on this marriage. There are plenty of women who would love to be in a relationship with someone like you and please you sexually. Unfortunately, your wife is not one of them.

P.S. I think IC would be very helpful for you to sort some of this out and decide what your boundaries are -- how you will and WILL NOT allow her to treat you. Then, you have some tough decisions to make if she doesn't comply.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Thanks Happy. Out of curiosity, do you have kids from your previous marriage? How old and how did the divorce affect your relationship with them? My kids are what keeps me hanging in there. Just 10 min ago, I was holding my 3 year old in my lap and laughing with him as we watched a tv show together before bed. I'm scared of the prospect of living away from my boys.


----------



## jr92gp (Feb 28, 2014)

Are you scared of being this unhappy for the rest of your life?

Don't get me wrong, your children's lives are extremely important, but what kind of life are you able to give them right now? Show them a man who takes action. Whatever action you take does not matter, it's a means to an end.

EDIT: To clarify, demand a marriage that will make you happy, or end it. Your current marriage is extremely unhealthy for EVERYONE including your children. Fix it.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Jonas said:


> Thanks Happy. Out of curiosity, do you have kids from your previous marriage? How old and how did the divorce affect your relationship with them? My kids are what keeps me hanging in there.


Yes, when we split up my kids were 15 and 13. Your kids are much younger than mine, but I can tell you that my kids are MUCH happier after the divorce and they would tell you the same thing. My relationship with them is better than ever, and I'm sure my ex feels the same way. All of the tension and bitterness is gone from their lives and that makes for much happier children.

Here's a quote I posted on someone else's thread:



happy as a clam said:


> Skye,
> 
> After my 20-year marriage ended, my kids told me after the fact that *they both wish we had divorced earlier.* The lack of love and intimacy between me and my ex was apparent to them, and it was not healthy for them at all. It was a bad model of a marriage for them. I am ashamed that I exposed them to so much antagonism, fighting, bickering, arguing and lack of affection between my ex and me. No child deserves that.
> 
> ...


Also, I'm not sure what state you live in, but you would quite possibly get 50/50 custody (at least that's the norm in my state).


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

So I've been trying to "fix it" for over a year now. Sometimes it seems "fixed", but those old wounds are so easily opened back up with the slightest cross word or disagreement. 

I'm in a weird place right now. I feel very manic. I'll go back and forth between thinking that I can make it work and the at the drop of a hat, I'm ready to pull the plug. My wife has done a good job of elevating herself and being a constant over the last year. While she has certainly treated me badly and ignored my needs, at least she's had both feet in. It's been ME with one foot out the door. 

My feelings of "thinking that things can work" are so often tempered by my reservations about truly moving forward. I think I mentioned this in a previous post, but my wife wants to open a business, she wants to buy or build a new home. The problem is that I can't get excited about these things when I don't feel that my marriage is on solid ground. It just feels like more crap that will hold us together or make it more difficult to split. - I wonder if this is actually her subconscious goal. I say "subconscious" because I know that she would say that wanting to do these things together is how she's trying to move our marriage forward, but to me it seems wreck less. 

Another part of this that makes it really hard for me is that we've been together since we were kids. We started dating at age 15 and have been together since. Both of us have strained relations with our families so we are as close to family to one another as anything else. It's hard to get your arms around basically disowning someone that is so close to you - whether you make each other miserable or not.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Interesting perspective on the kids Happy. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Jonas said:


> *While she has certainly treated me badly and ignored my needs, at least she's had both feet in.*


Huh?

Jonas, this statement is an *oxymoron*. How can you have "both feet in" and STILL treat someone badly and ignore their needs? 

Your thinking is skewed on this and I'm guessing it's because of her headrot-headgames. At the very best, she has half a foot in. 

*ox·y·mo·ron [ok-si-mawr-on, -mohr-]
*
a figure of speech by which a locution produces an *incongruous, seemingly self-contradictory effect,* as in “cruel kindness” or “to make haste slowly.”​Consider that definition carefully.

Hang in there...


----------



## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Jonas,

Do other women find you attractive?

Have you read MMSLP?


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Jonas,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't see why they wouldn't. I am small framed but in excellent physical shape. I am 5' 8" and 135-140 lb. I dress well and lift weights 3-4 times per week. I've put on about 8-10 lbs of muscle mass in the last year. I fell better than ever! Honestly though, I have no idea if women find me attractive though. 

I have not read mmslp. Not sure what that even stands for.


----------



## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Married Man's Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay

Read it. 

Has your wife addressed her childhood molestation in IC?


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

What's the book about? Is there a certain point or concept that can be mentioned here as a summary? I know that's no substitute for reading it, but I am curious. 

Hard to say whether she has or not. I personally don't think that she has, but I do know that she has been in and out of IC a couple times over the years. I think those sessions were more focused on her.now instead of her.past. There was a time shortly after she discovered that I looked at pornography regularly that she was having some suicidal thoughts. 

Based on what she told me about those sessions, the punch line was that I was/am the cause of her unhappiness and that she should leave me because I stifle her through controlling behavior and "verbal and mental abuse"


----------



## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Jonas said:


> What's the book about? Is there a certain point or concept that can be mentioned here as a summary? I know that's no substitute for reading it, but I am curious.
> 
> Hard to say whether she has or not. I personally don't think that she has, but I do know that she has been in and out of IC a couple times over the years. I think those sessions were more focused on her.now instead of her.past. There was a time shortly after she discovered that I looked at pornography regularly that she was having some suicidal thoughts.
> 
> Based on what she told me about those sessions, the punch line was that I was/am the cause of her unhappiness and that she should leave me because I stifle her through controlling behavior and "verbal and mental abuse"


Well, Jonas, you were given advice to read MMSLP early on in this thread. Months ago. It's a $10 book. Come on....

Also, after learning about both you and your wife's effed up childhoods, you were encouraged to get IC. Instead, you enrolled in MC. That's not the same.

Remember what I said earlier:

Dysfunctional man (YOU!) + dysfunctional woman= dysfunctional relationship.

So, no matter who the woman is, if you are dysfunctional, your relationships will be as well. Nobody with your screwed up childhood can become a functional adult without working through that sh!t in counselling.

Fix you.

You mention your porn addiction. Do you think women are attracted to men with porn addictions? Do you think your wife wants to sleep with a porn addict?

Take responsibility for *you*. Fix *you*. Everything else will fall in line, once that happens.


----------



## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Childhood neglect and abuse victims get the completely unfair burden of unraveling themselves.


Jonas,

Start with this.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

I did read "no more mr nice guy". I'll stop by the bookstore on the way home. If they don't have it, I'll order it online tonight.

I use porn. Yes. I don't think I am addicted to it. I stopped using porn last year in hopes that not looking at porn would make me somehow more attractive to my wife. Instead, it just turned me into a horn dog every time I was around her (unattractive) and when I would succeed in getting laid, I had stamina issues and remember what happens when I climax and she doesn't. She gets pissed.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

No dice at Books a Million. Big surprise. It's ordered!


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Some thoughts rattling around in my head this morning. 

1. I understand that I have some work and unraveling to do for myself, but how do you think this ties back into my marriage. "Fixing" myself is likely something that will take years - maybe even the rest of my life. At what point do I begin to make decisions about my marriage? I can't imagine that this is a sequential sort of thing but just curious on your opinions here. 

2. I feel sort of resolved and distant today. I've been thinking about all the experiences that I don't think I'll ever be able to have or enjoy with my wife. I've been thinking about how if I stay married, I will wake up every single morning laying next to a person who doesn't want me to touch them. I've been thinking about the reasons why we've hardly ever taken any family vacations together - we don't enjoy the same things; we don't move together well; vacations don't really feel like vacations with my wife. Even planning vacations is exhausting. Compare this to trip that I occasionally take by myself and I realize that I DO like vacationing and traveling. 

3. I still worry about my kids. The worry is not a selfish worry about ME not getting to see them as often as I am accustomed to. The worry is more about how hard this process will be on them. All the day care and shuttling back and forth. My wife hardly ever cooks so they will likely end up eating crap fast good a lot. I just want the best for my boys. Certainly want better than the conditions that I grew up in. 

Just some thoughts.


----------



## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

ThreeStrikes said:


> ...
> You mention your porn addiction. Do you think women are attracted to men with porn addictions? Do you think your wife wants to sleep with a porn addict?....


If my wife wasn't sleeping with me, I would be looking at porn too. Plenty of it. It's not the reason she's not sleeping with him.


----------



## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

Jonas said:


> ....I think I mentioned this in a previous post, but my wife wants to open a business, she wants to buy or build a new home. The problem is that I can't get excited about these things when I don't feel that my marriage is on solid ground. It just feels like more crap that will hold us together or make it more difficult to split. - I wonder if this is actually her subconscious goal. ...


Ya....Remember last time? She bought herself plastic surgery, went on holiday, and split from you.

Ya, I would not even entertain the idea of funding her business and new home...history tells a story, and the way she treats you screams for a sequel. You'd set her up nicely right before she kicks you to the curb.

You finish NMMNG yet? You get MMSL yet?


----------



## tulsy (Nov 30, 2012)

Jonas said:


> ....
> 
> 3. I still worry about my kids. The worry is not a selfish worry about ME not getting to see them as often as I am accustomed to. The worry is more about how hard this process will be on them. All the day care and shuttling back and forth. My wife hardly ever cooks so they will likely end up eating crap fast good a lot. I just want the best for my boys. Certainly want better than the conditions that I grew up in...


You don't think it'll be hard for them to see their parents fighting? 
Seeing their Dad miserable? 
Growing up with 2 people who live together but don't love each other? 
You think you're sending the right message by staying and putting up with her crap for life? 
- Think about what that teaches kids...you want to see them put up with unhappy marriages when they grow up?
Don't you think you have a responsibility there?

Having been married with kids, I can attest that my kids are much better off since we divorced. I have a much better relationship with them, and the time we spend together is quality time. They don't mind taking a 30 minute train ride to visit me twice a week, and they love getting away from their mom. 

When they are Dad's house, I make sure they get the foods they like, and they exercise with me everyday, something that never happens at home. We watch movies together almost every night, we travel together, I teach them stuff, we make each other laugh...best thing I ever did for the relationship with my kids is divorce their mother.

You're worried about day care, transit, and what their mom will feed them when you're not around? Day care is fine for kids, good for them to learn how to interact and bond with other kids...driving to and from is time to talk and catch up...and when it comes to food, it's your job as a father to teach them a healthy lifestyle. Kids will like eating fast food when they are young, but when Dad teaches them the importance of diet and exercise, they will learn the right way to treat their own bodies.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

tulsy said:


> You finish NMMNG yet? You get MMSL yet?



Thanks Tulsy, I read about three quarters of NMMNG several months back but never finished it. I decided to start reading it again from the beginning and WOW, some of what I read several months ago must have stuck. 

I HAVE started doing things for myself (like my camping/kayaking trip). I am becoming less of a "wimp" by just doing things I want to do and inviting my wife to come along if she wants (unfortunately, she doesn't usually come along). I AM finally dwelling in reality (seeing my relationship with my wife as a condition that I am not willing to live with the rest of my life). I AM developing integrity by honestly telling my wife that I was going to masterbate when she was withholding sex from me. I am setting boundaries by calmly telling my wife that she is being hurtful when she laughs off or rebukes my sexual advances. 

Perhaps i am further along than i thought. I think that just like one of the examples in the book, I'm not confused, I am afraid. I think I am very close to no longer tolerating an intolerable situation.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

IC session scheduled for 8/14. I tried to get in sooner, but couldn't. 

Thanks again to everyone who is reading this thread and offering advice and perspective. Please keep it coming. I promise not to drop off for months at a time again.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

I spoke to my wife on the phone a few minutes ago. I wanted to just be honest with her. I wanted to have an honest talk about my issues. I told her that I had made a counseling appointment and that I knew that I had issues to work on. I told her my reservations about buying a home or starting a business with her. I told her I didn't know if that just meant that I didn't want to start a business or whether it meant I wanted a divorce. She pointed to my childhood issues and harped on how sex is the only way I could connect with her. I intentionally didn't come out and tell her that I wanted a divorce - I'm just not there yet. But she went there; she told me that she knew where this was headed and that if I chose to walk out the door, then I could see the kids every other weekend. Period. She said she would fight me - no way that the kids would spend half time with me. She told me that when I found someone else, I'd find myself in the same situation with her because I am unable to love anyone, unable to have empathy, and unable to connect on non-sexual levels. She told me that for the past month that she had been truly happy and that I screw it up with my manic back and forth episodes. She told me that she was the better parent and that unless the mom was on board with joint custody, it doesn't happen. I feel terrible today. I even threw up after dinner tonight. 

Despite how bad I feel right now, it doesn't make me second guess my assessment of our relationship. It's gut wrenching though to consider whether life with my wife is so miserable that not having to live with her any longer is worth only seeing my kids 4 days a month. Thinking about it in that light just kills me.


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Jonas said:


> I spoke to my wife on the phone a few minutes ago. I wanted to just be honest with her. I wanted to have an honest talk about my issues. I told her that I had made a counseling appointment and that I knew that I had issues to work on. I told her my reservations about buying a home or starting a business with her. I told her I didn't know if that just meant that I didn't want to start a business or whether it meant I wanted a divorce. She pointed to my childhood issues and harped on how sex is the only way I could connect with her. I intentionally didn't come out and tell her that I wanted a divorce - I'm just not there yet. But she went there; she told me that she knew where this was headed and that if I chose to walk out the door, then I could see the kids every other weekend. Period. She said she would fight me - no way that the kids would spend half time with me. She told me that when I found someone else, I'd find myself in the same situation with her because I am unable to love anyone, unable to have empathy, and unable to connect on non-sexual levels. She told me that for the past month that she had been truly happy and that I screw it up with my manic back and forth episodes. She told me that she was the better parent and that unless the mom was on board with joint custody, it doesn't happen. I feel terrible today. I even threw up after dinner tonight.
> 
> Despite how bad I feel right now, it doesn't make me second guess my assessment of our relationship. It's gut wrenching though to consider whether life with my wife is so miserable that not having to live with her any longer is worth only seeing my kids 4 days a month. Thinking about it in that light just kills me.


Start carrying a var on you when interacting with her.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Well, my wife called back. We talked for two and a half hours. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to start my IC on 8/14. The Athol Kay book is arriving in a couple days. I'm going to read it and also actually use some of the things I learned from NMMNG to improve my marriage instead of using it as rationale for divorce. I'm going to open up communications with my wife and set healthy boundaries and encourage her to do the same with me. I've been on this forum bellyaching for over a year with my head in the sand. It's time to address my issues and my wife is willing to support me through it. 

I'm still going to hold up my promise to not disappear from the thread for months at a time. I want this thread to be a success story more than you can ever imagine. My kids are worth it. My wife is worth it.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Oh. And no more porn! I've been clean for 4 days!


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Jonas said:


> Well, my wife called back. We talked for two and a half hours. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to start my IC on 8/14. The Athol Kay book is arriving in a couple days. I'm going to read it and also actually use some of the things I learned from NMMNG to improve my marriage instead of using it as rationale for divorce. I'm going to open up communications with my wife and set healthy boundaries and encourage her to do the same with me. I've been on this forum bellyaching for over a year with my head in the sand. It's time to address my issues and my wife is willing to support me through it.
> 
> I'm still going to hold up my promise to not disappear from the thread for months at a time. I want this thread to be a success story more than you can ever imagine. My kids are worth it. My wife is worth it.


MMSLP if you apply it will help you.


----------



## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

I do hope you take a pro-active approach to IC for yourself. I think from reading your postings that you have lived in the dysfunction so long you don’t know any other way right now. 

You will need to take an honest look at yourself to utilize IC, from some of the things you wrote about your wife and her experiences in IC she was justifying her position rather than seeking help. Both of you would benefit greatly from IC used in coordination with MC.

Your ultimate goal right now is to save your marriage yet in order to do that you need to help yourself first. You both has a great many issues to work out before you can even begin to salvage the marriage. It can be done but its not easy and you both have to be willing.


----------



## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Jonas said:


> I'm still going to hold up my promise to not disappear from the thread for months at a time. I want this thread to be a success story more than you can ever imagine. My kids are worth it. My wife is worth it.


As a well-known member here used to say:

Real growth begins when we are at the precipice.

Congrats on deciding to fix you. Your journey is just beginning.


----------



## FisharnEked (Jul 16, 2014)

somethingnewmaybe said:


> Mine left after the tummy tuck too. The issue isn't you as much as it's them. Why the hell can't people just communicate... oh that's right, it's easier to run away


Call me sexist, but i firmly believe in most cases, its not _people_ that cant communicate, its _women_ that cant _communicate _ 

I know I say exactly what I want/need and wife somehow "hears" something different.


----------



## FisharnEked (Jul 16, 2014)

Jonas said:


> I really thought that this turmoil would/should be over by now...
> 
> She even told me that I should stop trying to touch her romantically when I want to initiate s** and just tell her point blank that I want to f***. That just feels terrible. I find myself retreating more and more. ..


Well, If thats what she wants, JUST GRAB HER AND F*** HER

HAVE YOU TRIED THAT 

JUST SAY SCREW IT , AND GRAB HER AND F*** HER :scratchhead:


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

FisharnEked said:


> Well, If thats what she wants, JUST GRAB HER AND F*** HER
> 
> HAVE YOU TRIED THAT
> 
> JUST SAY SCREW IT , AND GRAB HER AND F*** HER :scratchhead:


:smthumbup:


----------



## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

I haven't gone back through your thread; my apology if you've already covered this. But talk to a lawyer. Times have changed. The default custody should be 50/50 now. Your wife is bluffing you to get you to back down. Meet with a good local lawyer to find your rights and responsibilities, and what the likely "post-divorce" situation would be. 

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

PBear said:


> I haven't gone back through your thread; my apology if you've already covered this. But talk to a lawyer. Times have changed. The default custody should be 50/50 now. Your wife is bluffing you to get you to back down. Meet with a good local lawyer to find your rights and responsibilities, and what the likely "post-divorce" situation would be.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good advice. Definite will do this when/if the time is right. I'm going to defer any martial decisions until I can make some progress on myself.


----------



## FisharnEked (Jul 16, 2014)

FisharnEked said:


> Well, If thats what she wants, JUST GRAB HER AND F*** HER
> 
> HAVE YOU TRIED THAT
> 
> JUST SAY SCREW IT , AND GRAB HER AND F*** HER :scratchhead:




Well was that the answer to the problem? Maybe she just wanted something new and exciting?


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Not a huge update, but we had an interesting weekend so I thought I would share.

Most of the weekend was fine. We did some things together and some things apart. It was good. The interesting part was last night when my wife approached me about her brother coming to live in our guest cabin (If you remember from previous posts, we rent a guest cabin from a neighbor. The cabin is very near our home and rent it to keep someone from living there full time...this is the same cabin that my mother in law was planning to live in at one point). We had talked about him moving here before, but it was always way off in the future. Her brother battles depression and is an alcoholic - he's a nice guy, but can be a handful at times. There have also been times in our marriage where my wife has spent TONS of time, energy, and money on her brother to get him "on his feet", but he always ends up living in a pseudo-homeless between jobs sort of universe. So...anyways, my wife says "I talked to my brother. He wants to move here. He doesnt have a car or money to move. He asked me if I could come 600 miles and get him". I told her that I didnt think it was a good idea. I told her that starting out on such a "dependent note" didnt really set him up to prosper on his own. I told her that I couldnt finance her brother and that I knew that we would end up paying his rent, his electric bills, stocking his fridge with food, cooking for him, and driving him around whereever he needed to go. I told her that we had our hands full with our own children and that frankly putting her brother in the middle of our delicate marriage was just not a good idea either. I then asked "What do you think?"....she didnt tell me what she thought, instead she told me that she wasnt sure that I should even be weighing in on the topic because of my "episode" last week when I thought I was sure that I wanted a divorce. I asked her what she thought again and she said that "It doesnt matter what I think"....she was mad at me and I was ok with that. I was setting a boundary.

I was sitting on the porch watching the lightning storm a little later in the evening and she came out to sit with me and talk. She was extremely upset that I didnt comfort her and ask her about her feelings about her brother being destitute and nearly homeless with no job and no prospect of getting one. I explained to her that she approached me with a question about how I felt and that I was honest with her. I told her that when I asked her "how she felt", that would have been the time to have told me about her feelings and how upset she was about her brothers situation. It took me a while to get my point across (point being that she asked a question, I gave an answer, and she didnt take the opportunity that I gave her to talk about her feelings)...she kept interupting me and putting words in my mouth. She was assuming that I was just trying to make a "logical" argument and could care less about her feelings. She kept cutting me off and interupting me...like 4-5 times. I finally yelled at her. I told her that what she was doing was not acceptable. I told her that I was not going to allow her to make assumptions about what was about to come out of my mouth and then hold me in contempt for things that she incorrectly predicted that I was going to say. She did not like this. I felt like I did the right thing here. The only part that I hate is that my 9 year old son heard me yell at her from inside and he was very upset by this. He was fine this morning, but he was really mad at me last night for yelling at his mom.

So, I went to sleep...and I was awakened by my wife turning on a light in my face and saying "You're a sonofa*****, and I need you in the next 2 minutes to tell me that you love me and that you care about my feelings. Ive been telling you all night how upset I am about my brother and you are emotionally absent."

I told her that waking me up like that and calling me names was not acceptable. I told her that if she wanted to continue the conversation, we could pick it back up when I was awake. I told her that I wasnt going to stay up all night arguing. I told her that I did love her. I told her that I loved her so much in fact that Im no longer willing to bury my head in the sand and just "hope" that things get better between the two of us. I told her that the way she treated me was a product of how Ive allowed her to treat me in the past. I told her that I was going to communicate openly and honestly from this point forward and that I was going to clearly set boundaries. I told her that waking me from a dead sleep to have an argument with me was not acceptable. I told her that I DID care about her feelings and we ended up going to sleep holding hands.


----------



## FisharnEked (Jul 16, 2014)

^ Well, I do agree with how you say you handled that.

Just dont be too mad at her stepping all over you since you are the one that allowed her to get away with steping on your [email protected] for years.

It is going to take time for her to get used to you taking charge. Maybe that is what you all need. 

Remember, you can only lead someone that is willing to follow. The line between a leader and a tyrant is verry thin...


----------



## SamuraiJack (May 30, 2014)

FisharnEked said:


> ^ Well, I do agree with how you say you handled that.
> 
> Just dont be too mad at her stepping all over you since you are the one that allowed her to get away with steping on your [email protected] for years.
> 
> ...


Another thing you need to be aware of is that your wife might escalate the stakes to maintain the status quo. Sometimes patterns like this dont like to go away. They dig in. 
Keep yourself calm but hold your ground, gently but firmly is the way.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

I was say this...we had a great day yesterday. We enjoyed time with the kids together and watched a movie (Her - great film, btw) together before going to bed and holding one another.

I received MMSLP 2011 in the mail today and have started reading it.


----------



## Baablacksheep (Aug 29, 2013)

Jonas said:


> Not a huge update, but we had an interesting weekend so I thought I would share.
> 
> Most of the weekend was fine. We did some things together and some things apart. It was good. The interesting part was last night when my wife approached me about her brother coming to live in our guest cabin (If you remember from previous posts, we rent a guest cabin from a neighbor. The cabin is very near our home and rent it to keep someone from living there full time...this is the same cabin that my mother in law was planning to live in at one point). We had talked about him moving here before, but it was always way off in the future. Her brother battles depression and is an alcoholic - he's a nice guy, but can be a handful at times. There have also been times in our marriage where my wife has spent TONS of time, energy, and money on her brother to get him "on his feet", but he always ends up living in a pseudo-homeless between jobs sort of universe. So...anyways, my wife says "I talked to my brother. He wants to move here. He doesnt have a car or money to move. He asked me if I could come 600 miles and get him". I told her that I didnt think it was a good idea. I told her that starting out on such a "dependent note" didnt really set him up to prosper on his own. I told her that I couldnt finance her brother and that I knew that we would end up paying his rent, his electric bills, stocking his fridge with food, cooking for him, and driving him around whereever he needed to go. I told her that we had our hands full with our own children and that frankly putting her brother in the middle of our delicate marriage was just not a good idea either. I then asked "What do you think?"....she didnt tell me what she thought, instead she told me that she wasnt sure that I should even be weighing in on the topic because of my "episode" last week when I thought I was sure that I wanted a divorce. I asked her what she thought again and she said that "It doesnt matter what I think"....she was mad at me and I was ok with that. I was setting a boundary.
> 
> ...



Congratulations bro, you just passed a **** test :lol: :smthumbup:


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Awesome, Jonas! You absolutely DID pass a sh*t test!!

Keep your firm resolve and no matter which way it goes, YOU are standing up for YOU now. Doesn't it feel good?

Fwiw, I think your instincts and intuition on her brother are spot on. Having him here would split her into another whole direction, further away from your already fragile marriage. It would be one thing if he was a professional with his own work, hobbies and interests, but he's not. He will end being a giant wedge right in the middle. I would stick to my guns on this one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Quick update. We've gotten along amazingly since I passed the sh*t test! It had been 3 weeks since we last had sex. One of those weeks was menstruation. Over the 3 week period, I did a good job of completely removing the thought of sex from my mind and made absolutely no sexual advances. In the last 24 hours, we've done it TWICE!!!! And it was great both times. I just let it come to me and didn't push the issue. 

I finished the first part of MMSLP last night (somewhere around page 60 I think). I haven't really gotten to any practical advice but it is really interesting once you become conscious of alpha/beta actions and how to balance the two. 

For example, earlier today, I realized that our hummingbird feeder was empty. So (with my wife within earshot), I told my 9-year old that I had a project for him to do. I told him that I wanted him to refill the hummingbird feeder. He immediately said, "dad, I don't know how I do that!". I told him to go online and search for how to make hummingbird nectar and that I would help him if he ran into trouble. Well, my wife left for work before we actually made the nectar, but the important thing was that she heard me being assertive and setting a positive direction for my son while also teaching him something. When she gets home, she'll notice the recently filled up feeder. This may be a small dumb example but WHAT I did (refill the feeder) is a beta action, but HOW I did it had alpha written all over it.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Things are still going great. She knows that I am reading MMSLP, but she doesn't really know what the premise is. I explained that it's basically about the instincts of male female attraction - things we aren't even conscious of. The funny thing is that for YEARS, my wife has told me that she wants me to LEAD our family and I just never knew what she was asking for until now. I can remember occasions over the year (especially during times of intimacy) where I would do something dominate like a little hair pulling or slap on the ass and she verbalized her pleasure in this. Eureka! My wife wants to be dominated. The book does an excellent job of explaining how to show dominance without being an *******. For example, she was out of town all week for work and I sent her a text message saying "we are taking the kids to the movies on Saturday. Get ready." She responded immediately with "I know! I was thinking that too! Lol". 

Last night she even told me "I don't know if it's that book you're reading or what but I've been more attracted to you in the last 2-3 weeks than I have in a long time. "It's really hard to explain" she said. 

Viva la MMSLP!

I love that I got a start on the MAP way before reading the book. I started the MAP on my own about a year ago. Working out 3-4 times per week, making more and more friends outside of our marriage, showing some independence, etc. 

Oh, another neat thing is that I'm starting to realize when girls and flirting with me. Not sure if they just never flirted me with before or if I'm just now picking up on it. I picked my kids up from daycare one afternoon this week. My oldest was begging for money for the coke machine. I told him "no, we are going to dinner at <restaurant name>." The extremely attractive daycare director overheard me and said "ohhh, <restaurant name>, I'll be in the car" as she made a suggestive move towards the parking lot while making eye contact with me. HOLY ****! Lol. Did that just happen?!?! Lol


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

This is the most interesting thing I've ever been a part of. Was at dinner earlier tonight and while ordering, my wife turned into a "venomous skreetchrtard" as Athol would say. I told my wife right in front of the poor waitress, "you are not going to speak to me that way. You are being disrespectful and in not going to tolerate it". She tried to turn it I to an argument over whether the point she was trying to make was valid. I told
Her that it really didn't matter whether she was right or wrong. "The fact remains that the way you spoke to me was disrespectful and that's not acceptable to me". She was pissed. I moved right along. Played with the kids through dinner And make good conversation. She refused to hold my hand across the table but I didn't make a big deal of it. She held my hand on the way home. Interesting stuff I tell you. Stay tuned.


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Jonas said:


> Things are still going great. She knows that I am reading MMSLP, but she doesn't really know what the premise is. I explained that it's basically about the instincts of male female attraction - things we aren't even conscious of. The funny thing is that for YEARS, my wife has told me that she wants me to LEAD our family and I just never knew what she was asking for until now. I can remember occasions over the year (especially during times of intimacy) where I would do something dominate like a little hair pulling or slap on the ass and she verbalized her pleasure in this. Eureka! My wife wants to be dominated. The book does an excellent job of explaining how to show dominance without being an *******. For example, she was out of town all week for work and I sent her a text message saying "we are taking the kids to the movies on Saturday. Get ready." She responded immediately with "I know! I was thinking that too! Lol".
> 
> Last night she even told me "I don't know if it's that book you're reading or what but I've been more attracted to you in the last 2-3 weeks than I have in a long time. "It's really hard to explain" she said.
> 
> ...


:smthumbup::smthumbup:


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Sex 4 times in the past 8 days! And she was out of town Monday through Thursday! And with a Huge fitness test mixed in there as well!

She left again for a business trip this afternoon and will be gone until Friday. 

Independent counseling starts for me on Thursday of this week.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Well, after a short hot streak, I'm looking at zero times in the past 7 days and I'm leaving town for 2 days either tonight or early tomorrow morning for work. Our hot streak ended on last Sunday (7 days ago). She had to go out of town all week for job training. We spoke pleasantly on the phone each night from Sun evening through Tuesday evening. On Wednesday, we didn't speak. I tried to call but she didn't answer and didn't return my call. On Thursday, we spoke and apparently her mom had a heart cath earlier in the day and bypass surgery is looking very likely. She talked about going home to stay with her mom for a couple weeks during the looming surgery. I KNOW that I should be supportive here, and I AM. But...remember this is the same mother that almost moved into our guest house, drove a wedge between me and my wife, and ultimately chose a cheating transsexually fixated sociopath over her own family. So...after taking care of both kids for the past 2 weeks (while wife has been in job training), the prospect of another couple weeks in the near future caused me some anxiety - not for fear or stress of taking care of the kids, but anxiety around my job responsibilities. I recently got promoted and am managing a pretty big team. The new job calls for me to be in "the city" twice per week. When my wife is away, I cannot uphold this agreement with my employer. It's not been identified as a problem, but I certainly don't want to push the envelope and have it become a problem. Anyways, my wife was noticeably short and grumpy with me on the phone Thursday night. She got home on Friday evening around 6 pm. She came home to a spotless house - all laundry and dishes done; bathrooms cleaned, floors swept, etc. I also had dinner waiting on her. Grilled chicken, steamed broccoli, brown rice, and crescent rolls. Dinner was great, but she must have said "I'm so tired" 10 times between getting home and going to bed around 9:30 pm. Yesterday (Saturday), the grumpiness continued. I made some playful sexual advances throughout the day and they were all scoffed at. I cooked a great meal for dinner as well. Fajitas. They were GOOD! After dinner, I had to run a quick errand. I got home to find my wife laying in bed on her iPhone, with food leftovers and plates still on the table. No effort towards cleaning the kitchen. She had at least helped clean up the previous night after I cooked. To her credit, she DID cook the kids fish sticks and Mac and cheese (not sure why they couldn't have eaten the fajitas that I cooked, but whatever - she caters to them. She also drew a bath for our 3 year old while I was running the errand. Some she wasn't completely spaced out and being avoident, but I just thought she could have helped clean the kitchen. A covert contract on my part? Absolutely. 

Towards bedtime, she again spoke of how tired she was and how she had t really felt good all day. We we to bed. 

And that brings us to today. It's 10am. I've been up with the kids since 7:30. She is still asleep. She did have to get up in the middle of the night and change sheets when our 3 year old wet the bed. 

There's no real point to this post. No real fireworks. I'm just trying to use this thread as a journal. And looking for perspective along the way. 

After reading MMSLP, I'm wondering if our recent "hot streak" was during her ovulation period and now she is in her PMS week. Could be an explanation. Books don't really tell you how to deal with everything.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Keep on journaling... you may see some patterns start to emerge. Not sure about the ovulation/PMS phases, but it sure sounds like business travel for her job wears her out.

What are you going to do about your situation? Its been going on for quite awhile. You first posted more than a year ago.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Jonas said:


> Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to start my IC on 8/14. The Athol Kay book is arriving in a couple days. I'm going to read it and also actually use some of the things I learned from NMMNG to improve my marriage instead of using it as rationale for divorce. I'm going to open up communications with my wife and set healthy boundaries and encourage her to do the same with me. I've been on this forum bellyaching for over a year with my head in the sand. It's time to address my issues and my wife is willing to support me through it.
> 
> I'm still going to hold up my promise to not disappear from the thread for months at a time. I want this thread to be a success story more than you can ever imagine. My kids are worth it. My wife is worth it.


Hi Happy...^^^this is what I am going to do about my situation. I know Ive been posting here for over a year, but much of that year was spent with my head in the sand and not applying the good advice that was offered to me early in this thread. I'm serious about fixing things or going the other route if necessary. We have a family trip planned to Disney World in Oct. If that trip ends up being a sh*t show, that will be a very telling sign with regard to the true health of our relationship at that point.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

happy as a clam said:


> Keep on journaling... you may see some patterns start to emerge.


So, I looked back through my journal and posts in this thread and here are the dates where I seem to have most clearly been unhappy:

7/27/2013
1/27/2014
1/30/2014
6/26/2014
7/20/2014
7/23/2014

That looks like a pretty darn consistent pattern. Her period typically begins at the end of the month.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Jonas said:


> I know Ive been posting here for over a year, but much of that year was spent with my head in the sand and not applying the good advice that was offered to me early in this thread. I'm serious about fixing things or going the other route if necessary. We have a family trip planned to Disney World in Oct. If that trip ends up being a sh*t show, that will be a very telling sign with regard to the true health of our relationship at that point.


Sounds like you have a very good plan in place. I agree with applying the principles of NMMNG, setting boundaries, IC, and also go back and re-read some of the advice given early on. I'm sure it all still applies!

I also like the fact that you are giving yourself a realistic "deadline" (trip to Disney) as to whether or not you are seeing real, meaningful changes in your relationship.

Your dates/timeline is very interesting. It certainly sounds like she could be cycling with her hormone fluctuations, but still not an excuse for her to treat you poorly. She needs to get on board with taking steps to improve the relationship too. I can't remember, is she averse to her own individual counseling?


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Hello friends. I’m feeling very frustrated this morning. After a brief period of believing that I was making true progress, I feel like I’m back at square one. No s** in the past 12 days and last night was especially frustrating. My wife and I exchanged text messages and chatted on the phone briefly yesterday. The conversation was flirty with some innuendos. It had been a while since we were last intimate, so I just KNEW that s** was in the cards for later in the evening…as long as I didn’t screw it up of course. My wife picked up the kids from daycare and I met them at my oldest son’s school for a PTA meeting. After the meeting, we went out for pizza and had a nice meal together. When we got home, I bathed our 3 year old while our 9 year old also took a shower in the other bathroom. We got the kids into bed at a reasonable time and I was excited for OUR night to begin. I was sitting on the couch in the living room and my wife came and layed down on the couch with her feet sort of in my lap. I rubbed her feet and legs while we talked. Just as I “made my move”, one of the kids enters the room and has to be tucked back into bed – which I did. When I came back to the sofa in the living room, we got comfortable again – her laying down with her feet in my lap. We continued talking; she was telling me about a situation she was having to deal with at work. As I listened and responded on queue, I began rubbing her legs again…moving my way up. She was wearing soft pajama pants and I found my hands drawn to the area where her hips/legs meet her abdomen – you know that magical crease that begins at her hips and disappears into her crotch. She pushed my hands away and said “don’t touch me there while I talking to you about this topic! That’s just inappropriate!” I told her that I was NOT touching her inappropriately; it wasn’t like I was groping her private parts…and honestly, even if I had blatantly grabbed her crotch, it seems to me that this should have been ok too. Anyways, she was mad; I was mad. She continued to tell me that SHE was the one who got to decide what was appropriate and what wasn’t. I coldly told her “Don’t worry; It wont happen again”. There was some silence and she finally picked back up and finished the story she was trying to tell me in the first place (remember, about the situation she was dealing with at work). I was tired and my back was hurting from having a dislocated rib popped back into place by the chiropractor earlier in the day. I told her I was going to bed. I got in bed a few minutes ahead of my wife started to drift off to sleep about 10 min later. Just as I was almost asleep, my wife asks “So, you are really going to sleep huh?”…I said yes, and that I was tired. She then gets out of bed for a second and then gets bad in. She said something along the lines of “You miss some really good things by being distant and disconnected from me”…I asked her what she was talking about. She tells me that she had been laying naked next to me for 10 min and that I had “missed out”. What?!?! I had no idea that she was laying there with no clothes on…I mean she had just pushed me away and accused me of touching her inappropriately not 20 minutes earlier. After a few minutes of slience, I told her that I was really frustrated by what had unfolded over the course of the evening. I told her that I felt like in some weird way that she was trying to create a scenario in which I TURNED HER DOWN. She said, well, if you had tried to hold me when I got into bed, yada yada yada….I told her that I didn’t try to hold her because when I hold her, I become aroused, and when I become aroused, she accuses me of being a horn dog and trying to hump her like a Chihuahua. I explained that since she had just rebuked my advances in the living room, I was just trying to go to bed and not get myself into a situation to become aroused since I thought s** was off the table. I also told her that “getting into bed naked without me even knowing” isn’t foreplay. If I hopped into bed naked after a fight about personal boundaries and “got up on her”, she would literally kick me out of bed! She told me how frustrated she was that I didn’t know the “appropriate” times and ways to engage her for s**. I think the last thing I told her before finally going to sleep was “Im a 36 year old man. I don’t need you to tell me a prescription for how to touch or engage you. I touch you how I touch you and you either like it or you don’t….and you don’t”’…she agreed and we went to sleep.

I’m so freaking tired of the constant uphill struggle.

I realize that many of you have stopped following this thread, and I’m likely to start getting some “piss of get off the pot” comments based on how long this has been going on. I could really use some perspective right now though. I’m so tired and frustrated.

I can’t imagine life without seeing my kids every day, but I also don’t know what I’m even trying to save with my wife. If our kids were suddenly grown and moved out of the house, I just don’t know if I’d be happy with HER. I’ll be 50 years old when that happens.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Jonas said:


> I realize that many of you have stopped following this thread, and I’m likely to start getting some “piss of get off the pot” comments based on how long this has been going on. I could really use some perspective right now though. I’m so tired and frustrated.


I'm still following your thread. But it really IS coming down to "p*ss or get off the pot" time. What you experienced was just another big fat sh*t test that you couldn't POSSIBLY pass! I believe she never had ANY intentions of having sex with you that night... the innuendos all day long were just another attempt to appease you, put you off a little longer, and then FAIL to deliver in the end.

Honestly Jonas, what ARE you waiting for? The trip to Disney is an arbitrary deadline. And Disney is a pretty stressful trip for parents, even though its a blast for kids. I don't think things will magically change on that trip.



Jonas said:


> I can’t imagine life without seeing my kids every day, but I also don’t know what I’m even trying to save with my wife. If our kids were suddenly grown and moved out of the house, *I just don’t know if I’d be happy with HER.* I’ll be 50 years old when that happens.


You WON'T be happy with her then, you're not happy with her now. As for seeing your kids every day, no you won't get to, but you'll still see them 50% of the time which is A LOT. They are much better off with two households where both parents are happy than one s*cky household where everyone is miserable.

My kids are MUCH happier now that their dad and I are divorced. They come and go freely to both homes and no longer have the stress of their parents' unhappiness.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

I don't know what I'm waiting on. I guess in just not quite miserable enough? I'm finally starting IC tomorrow.


----------



## sammy3 (Jun 5, 2011)

Jonas, 

another book you might want to pick up. its called "Uncoupling" Diane Vaughan. 

It explains how we get to where we are... It may give you some insight... 

-sammy


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Oh boy. Things are kinda blowing up tonight. About a month ago, a female friend of mine that I taught ski lessons with last season asked me for a letter of recommendation for a full time job she was seeking at a resort out west. I wrote the letter, she got the job. Long story short, I met her out for drinks a couple weeks ago to catch up and hear about her upcoming adventure. Nothing romantic, just hanging out. I wished her well on her ski gig out west and went home. On Friday, my wife's aunt was in town and she had my cell phone watching a YouTube video on it. And bam, my 22 year old ski instructor friend texts me asking if I was in town to hang out. She tells my wife about the text and now my wife thinks I'm having an affair. She told me it was really over tonight. I know I shouldn't have put myself in a situation of "having drinks" with a 22 year old for gods sake. I feel so stupid. Of all the things to end a marriage...an affair that didn't really happen. Oh, and this coincides with a few other things that really make me look bad. 2 weeks ago, I changed the password on my computer (took wife 1.5 weeks to realize it was changed). Once she realized it was changed, she called me and DEMANDED to know why I changed it and what it was. I told her the password and didn't think much of it. And the craziest thing is this: my wife hasn't visited the home that we used to live in for over a year. I'm usually there once a week as a place to stay when I have to travel into the city on business. Well, she was there last weekend and swears that she saw lipstick on the hand towel in the master bath and also swears that the pillow case in the guest bed was covered in make up. I am innocent, but I can only imagine what a cheating fool I look like right now. Sigh.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

So, I was forced to sleep in the guest house last night (it's not so much of a house as much as it is a 700 sq ft cinder block cabin that we rent from the neighbor to keep anyone else from living too close to us)

When I returned home today, I found the following handwritten note inside my copy of MMSLP

"Jonas, your self help book sucks. It was written by a prick who degrades women. I don't want a dominant gorilla - my ass doesn't turn red nor does my vagina smell during my 2 days of ovulation. This book has been written a thousand times over. Look up treatment at the turn of the century for "hysterics" in women. I am far more than an ovulating "*****" that needs an alpha dog (by the way, alphas aren't faithful in the animal kingdom either). If you want to see what a REAL woman wants, crack your BIBLE. 

- (her name), your thinking, breathing, real, and intelligent wife - not someone who needs to be tricked"

Interestingly enough, I also received this text message from her today:
Good morning. I hope we can talk through this. I am really hurt today, but willing to meet you half way.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Jonas, this has definitely taken a turn for the worse 

I guess you've already come to the conclusion by now that it's not a good idea for a married man to meet a 22-year-old single woman for drinks.

So... after you received the text, have the two of you had a chance to talk, to "meet half way?" Does your wife realize by now that you are not having an affair? Have you moved back into the bedroom yet?


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Yeah, we talked. I *think* she believes me that I didn't have an affair (although she says that she thinks that I've cheated before at some point - which I haven't). Her main concern with the situation is that I honestly don't know where to draw the line between what is or isn't appropriate. During our "meeting half way" talks, I told her I was sorry that I hurt her feelings but I maintained that I had no bad intentions in my meeting my friend for drinks. I acknowledged that in hindsight it was a dumb situation to put myself into. I acknowledged that the only reason I went was for an ego boost (hell, it feels good to be looked up to and wanted). She got exasperated at one point and said "I can't believe a 22 year old is chasing my husband". I really hadn't considered that. This is straight out of MMSLP! Is this what happens what you run the MAP? 

In total, I spent 2 nights out of the bedroom. Night 1: mentioned above. And night 2 was the following night because I had to travel for work. We slept in the same bed last night and held each other. It was nice. Unfortunately, she left for the airport this morning to go take care of her mother who is having bypass heart surgery tomorrow. 

We've made a lot of progress over the past 6 weeks or so. Whether she likes it or not, the practicality of the MMSLP is working. When I was driving home yesterday, I honestly didn't know how I would be greeted when I got home. She called while I was on my way home and told me that she loved me and that if she didn't love me that she wouldn't be hurt by this. She said she wants to put it behind us and keep building on the momentum we've gained in the past couple of months. She said, "when you get home, I just want you to hold me"....so I did.


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Jonas said:


> Yeah, we talked. I *think* she believes me that I didn't have an affair (although she says that she thinks that I've cheated before at some point - which I haven't). Her main concern with the situation is that I honestly don't know where to draw the line between what is or isn't appropriate. During our "meeting half way" talks, I told her I was sorry that I hurt her feelings but I maintained that I had no bad intentions in my meeting my friend for drinks. I acknowledged that in hindsight it was a dumb situation to put myself into. I acknowledged that the only reason I went was for an ego boost (hell, it feels good to be looked up to and wanted). She got exasperated at one point and said "I can't believe a 22 year old is chasing my husband". I really hadn't considered that. This is straight out of MMSLP! Is this what happens what you run the MAP?
> 
> In total, I spent 2 nights out of the bedroom. Night 1: mentioned above. And night 2 was the following night because I had to travel for work. We slept in the same bed last night and held each other. It was nice. Unfortunately, she left for the airport this morning to go take care of her mother who is having bypass heart surgery tomorrow.
> 
> We've made a lot of progress over the past 6 weeks or so. Whether she likes it or not, the practicality of the MMSLP is working. When I was driving home yesterday, I honestly didn't know how I would be greeted when I got home. She called while I was on my way home and told me that she loved me and that if she didn't love me that she wouldn't be hurt by this. She said she wants to put it behind us and keep building on the momentum we've gained in the past couple of months. She said, "when you get home, I just want you to hold me"....so I did.


:smthumbup:
MMSLP
Perfect example she knows you are wanted by other females thus she is attracted to you that much more.
She knows you have options.
She knows you didn't cheat but very well could have.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Hello friends. It's been a while since my last update so I figured I owed you guys some info - plus, it really helps me get things off my chest by posting here. I cant tell you how much I appreciate everyone who has read my thread and has offered advice and constructive criticism.

The last few weeks have been extremely tough. I went from successfully running the MAP to again having serious doubts about my relationship and what it is that I am even trying to save.

I had my 3rd individual counseling session on Friday. I talked about my feelings over the past week or so. Im still having a hard time explaining why I’m having these feelings because my wife really hasn’t done anything mean or hateful to me lately (other than kicking me out of the bedroom when I received that text message from my friend). She is just sort of “there”. She has sort of a take me or leave me attitude about things right now. “I can’t make you love me" she says…I’m not sure I buy into that. Isn’t that what we are supposed to be doing? Making the other love us? I guess it doesn’t matter. I told my councelor that I felt like a crazy person because I felt like there are 2 possible realities and I honestly don’t know which one is real.

My wife and I should have never gotten married in the first place. We’ve been married for 15 years and truth be told, we’ve never been “best friends”. My blind commitment to “staying married” early in our marriage (before kids) caused me to never even consider divorce as a possibility. This lack of consideration gave me no incentive to “fix” marital issues as they developed over the years. Instead, I put my head in the sand and let them “pile up” to the point of giving my wife no choice other than to seek a divorce from me 18 months ago.

Reality number 1:
I have a wife and 2 kids that love me. Sure, my wife left me 18 months ago, but that’s in the past. She has recommitted to me and has not wavered in her position of loving me and moving forward. All married couples have issues. Its not all butterflies and rainbows – as they say. The expectations I have for my marriage and interactions with my wife are not realistic. I need to learn to accept my life and love my wife.

Reality number 2:
My wife is controlling and doesn’t approve of me as a person. No matter how hard I try, I will never be the man she wants me to be and she will never be the approving wife that I want her to be. The string of hurtful events over the course of our relationship and marriage have taken their toll. I am unable to truly “be myself” around my wife. I walk around al the time feeling pensive and resentful. I am in an unhealthy relationship and I need to move on.

My counselor told me I needed to decide. He told me that this is my crossroads and nobody can tell me what choice to make here. He is right. He advised me to consider couples counseling. When he said that, I sort of cringed because deep down I think I know that I am hanging onto a relationship that is simply never going to fulfill either one of us. He also advised me to put together a list of pros and cons – ON PAPER. So here it goes:

Staying married:
Pros:
•	I get to see my kids everyday
•	I avoid the guilt associated with “leaving my family”
•	I avoid hurting my wife. I still love her
Cons:
•	Ongoing mental strife and indecision
•	Unfulfilling s*x life
•	My wife doesn’t make me feel good about myself – I don’t see this changing
•	I will continue to have no control over my own financial situation
•	My kids grow up in a tumultuous environment and potentially develop the wrong view of what a marriage should look like
•	I get to spend the rest of my life with someone who doesn’t enjoy doing the things that I am most passionate about 
•	I eventually end up having to take care of my mother in law, my wife’s nephew, and my brother in law (all very needy, dependent, or incapable on their own)

Getting a Divorce:
Pros:
•	I take full control for my own life
•	The time I spend with my kids will be spent exactly how I want to spend it
•	I’m able to “be myself”
•	I’ll make new friends and have fewer restrictions on who I spend time with
•	I can personally work toward financial goals
•	I could potentially find someone to spend the rest of my life with who DOES enjoy doing the things that I am most passionate about.
•	My kids will see me as a stronger and more dominant person
•	My wife will be happier in the long run
•	I will be happier in the long run
•	I can improve my relationship with Mom and Stepdad

Cons:
•	I don’t get to see my kids everyday
•	Potentially NO s*x life
•	Extremely difficult in the short-term (mentally and financially)
•	My wife will be extremely hurt in the short-term
•	I will have guilt for “leaving my family”
•	I will have guilt for putting my wife into a harder situation than she is in now (in terms of cooking, cleaning, caring for the kids – I help a LOT with these things)

Sorry for another one of my notoriously long posts


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

I told my wife last night that I wanted a divorce. There's a part of me that feels sick and a part of me that feels relieved. I re-read all my journal entries over the past year or so and I know this is what is right for both of us. It doesn't make it any easier though.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Is this the first time you' ve ever said it outright to her? What was her reaction?

I read your pros and cons lists for both staying and divorcing. Your counselor is correct--you are at a crossroads and only YOU can make that decision. It sounds like you have; I also think (from reading all your posts) it's the decision you've wanted to make for a long time.

Now that you've decided, are you going to meet with an attorney? You have to translate that decision into action or you'll be in the same boat a year from now.

Also, did you cancel the trip to Disney or are you all still going?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Haven't met with an attorney yet but I will soon. Hopefully this week. 

You are correct; this is something I've "wanted" to decide for a long time. It's been the fear of losing my children that has kept me in this state of limbo, indecisiveness, and agony. 

I'm still extremely worried about what this will do to my relationship with my kids. 

The conversation with my wife last night is not something that I planned. I had planned to talk to her about it once we returned from Disney, but she pushed the issue last night. For the past week, I've been pretty standoffish towards her and she called me on it saying if this is how I was going to continue acting towards her then we needed to talk about our marriage. The kids were asleep so I took the opportunity and explained my feelings. She was hurt but not angry. She is mainly worried about me "taking her kids from her half the time". She assures me that she won't let that happen and that she only wants me to see the kids every other weekend. I calmly told her that was unacceptable but we didn't have to solve that right now. She was also worried about this life change "locking her into" her job and how hard working full time with kids and no husband is going to be. We talked about timing and she asked that we "make it through the holidays". I agreed for the sake of being agreeable, but I'm not sure how doable this is. 

When we went to bed last night, we both went to the same bed. I placed my hand on her shoulder and she asked me not to touch her but after laying there for a while, she ended up holding me and we fell asleep. This morning was awkward. Extremely awkward - which is why I'm not sure we can keep this up through the holidays. 

Yeah, still planning to go to Disney together. That should be interesting.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Jonas said:


> When I am away from her, I start to think about things logically. I think: we've never really been happy, she doesnt enjoy my company, the things I enjoy annoy her, she doesnt trust me, she undermines my masculinity, I realize that I dont really enjoy her company either - even when we go on dates, I dont really have fun. I'm on eggshells the whole time trying not to make an inappropriate joke, trying not to have more than 2 beers or I'll hear about it, its just not enjoyable. So lately, yeah, its me thats having all these doubts.


This is from your very first post. I think it sums up everything.

When you feel the doubt start to creep in (and it will; I was in your shoes once -- took me 20 years to finally pull the plug) go back and re-read this paragraph. And also your pros and cons list.

Hang in there Jonas, and keep us posted. I seem to be the only one responding lately  ; I have followed your thread from the very beginning and am hoping for a good outcome for you.

Just try to relax and have fun at Disney (not sure it's POSSIBLE to relax at Disney... lol) Enjoy the trip with your kids -- they will have a blast!


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Thanks Happy. This is going to be extremely difficult. Based on my situation and my wife's reactions so far, it's going to take everything I've got not to get back on the roller coaster. 

I went for a massage this morning (boy did I need it). Right afterwards, my wife called and asked me to have lunch with her. So I did. She is begging me for another chance saying that she can change and she can love me better and make me feel good about myself. For the kids sake, she doesn't want any of this to "go down" until after the holidays. I agree with her but like I said, it's going to be hard to not get back on the roller coaster. I guarantee you that her next move is to seduce me - not sure how I'm going to handle that one. 

I explained to my wife that if this was something that could be fixed, we would have fixed it by now. I explained that this was not a conclusion I arrived at overnight. I explained that my decision isn't an emotional one and it's not in reaction to any single event. I explained that there is nobody else; I literally have nothing and nobody outside of our marriage. I explained that in my list of pros and cons, the ONLY upside to staying married is that I get to see the kids everyday and even then, they get to see me in a marital situation that isn't healthy. I explained that I cared about her feelings and her happiness for the rest of her days on earth and that if she was honest with herself, she knows deep down that she can be happier without me. 

Before I dropped her back off at her car, she kissed me and hugged me. She said "I just want to hold you and kiss you and show you how much I love you. Aren't you going to miss that?" I told her yes, I would miss that more than anything, but that was only a small part of our overall relationship and dynamic. 

She's trying hard to reel me back in. It's hard to resist a beautiful woman who is crying and telling you how much she loves you. This would certainly be easier if she was trying to hit me with a frying pan and screaming at me.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Having a tough time right now. My resolution hasn't faded but my wife has sent me into a bout of anxiety by mentioning her desire to move 5 states away to live in the same town as her mother and sisters. She is calling my current behavior "scathingly civil". 

Read this passage this morning and it helps. 


Love - Cycle of comfort and contentment. 
Toxic love - Cycle of pain and despair.

Love is not supposed to be painful. There is pain involved in any relationship but if it is painful most of the time then something is not working. 
There is nothing wrong with wanting a relationship - it is natural and healthy. There is nothing wrong with wanting a relationship that will last forever - expecting it to last forever is what is dysfunctional. Expectations set us up to be a victim - and cause to abandon ourselves in search of our goal.

If we can start seeing relationships not as the goal but as opportunities for growth then we can start having more functional relationships. A relationship that ends is not a failure or a punishment - it is a lesson. 

As long as our definition of a successful relationship is one that lasts forever - we are set up to fail. As long as we believe that we have to have the other in our life to be happy, we are really just an addict trying to protect our supply - using another person as our drug of choice. That is not True Love - nor is it Loving.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Hang in there... 

Her talk of moving 5 states away is achieving exactly what she wants -- to drive you to an emotional state of panic and anxiety just thinking about it. Calculated and manipulative. Very uncool.

Your possible divorce is picking up momentum. Up to now you've been wondering what YOU will do (stay or go). If she's upset now and talking about moving 5 states away, now you have to worry about what SHE will do (stay or go). Either way, this is no way to live, but you already know this.

Now would be a good time to call your attorney and get a Shared Parenting Plan hammered out quickly, or a possible restraining order to keep her from leaving the state with your kids. *You must get your ducks in a row, Jonas.* This piece of the puzzle is FAR more important (as far as your children are concerned) than the actual divorce settlement. If you allow her to leave the state BEFORE you have an RO in place or legally file, it will be VERY difficult to get them back. The court will say something ridiculous like, "Well, the kids are with their mother, settled in and living in her hometown near their grandparents, they are better off where they are." And you'll become a two-weeks-during-the-summer dad.

Visit your attorney, protect yourself, and most of all protect your kids.

You simply cannot afford to drag your feet any longer Jonas. Gotta stay one step ahead of her at this point...


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Happy, thanks again for staying with me here. I am SERIOUSLY struggling here. I'm now back in the mindset of wondering if we CAN actually make this work. My wife is admiting her faults, agreeing to go to counceling (IC and MC), and saying that she finally understands how her actions have driven me to this point. I want to be happy in my marriage; I really do. I think I want it so badly that its a fault of my own at this point.

Things kind of came to a head again yesterday evening. My wife has been nothing but nice to me for the past week since I told her that I wanted a divorce. I've been so cold to her. She sees this as me trying to bait her into being mean to me so that I can leave with a cleaner conscious (which is true to some extent)...(reference my earlier comment about how much easier this would be if she were yelling at me and chasing me with a frying pan.) I snapped at her in the car yesterday and it brought her to tears...when we got home, she went for a walk and I caught up to her to talk. She told me that I should move out and to forget what she said about trying to make it through the holidays. She told me that she had nothing here and that she had no choice other than to move 5 states away to be closer to family. This is my weak point - my kids. I told her that I was not moving and that she couldnt just move like that...these are my children too. I could feel myself sitting back down in the rollercoaster - buckling my seatbelt. I told her that I wasnt moving out of the house. I asked my wife to "make me want to stay". I asked her to change my mind. Im torn between being open to the possibility of reconciliation and being cold to make my departure easier.

She's even asking me details about things that I might want for Christmas.

I think you are right. I do need some sort of custody agreement in place to keep her from leaving the state in the middle of the night. I dont think she would do that, but who knows right?!? While offering me some level of "protection" ,any sort of legal proceeding is going to make reconciliation near impossible. She will not see it as a "hedge", she will see it as things starting to "get messy" with lawyers, courts, etc. Divorce will be inevitable.

So torn...Im an idiot. So tired. Marriage should not be this hard.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

I made an appt with an attorney just now, but its not for several weeks due to availability. Maybe thats for the best.


----------



## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

Jonas said:


> I made an appt with an attorney just now, but its not for several weeks due to availability. Maybe thats for the best.


You need to get a parenting agreement asap before one day her and the kids are gone.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Jonas,

???

What happened to your post? I read it briefly and was going to respond this weekend... and *poof* it's gone!

I'm sorry the trip didn't go so well. I hope you will re-post the details.


----------



## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Woah, I read the first post and his last. 

Sounds like they don't know about making a relationship work.

Relationships should be reciprocal, and meeting each others needs, emotional and physical.

Knowing how to express to each other love, which is different for everyone. 

Listening and analyzing. Do it with a level head and see if ther is any validity to what is being said. 

Each of you working on your issues. 

Reduce stress, and spend some quality time together. 

Find another few couples to be friends with, and take turn babysitting each others children . Make it a whole day, and decompress together. Focus on each other, and talk, listen, experience new things, and date. 

If all this is happening and your not compatiable, then separate. At least you learn something, and each of you is improving. Know more about yourselves, and seek relationships that compliment you.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Hey guys. Sorry about deleting my previous post. I guess I had a moment of paranoia. Im honestly not sure why I deleted it, but I just felt like that if my wife somehow found this thread, I would be "tipping my hand" and risk her leaving town with the kids. I don't think that is going to happen. She is seriously working to reel me back in right now. My anxiety is at an all time high. I have my legal appointment in 3 days and I am still extremely torn up about it.

On the trip to Disney, I kept sort of a mini journal on my iphone. Here are the highlights/themes:

I became increasingly bothered (while on the trip) about the way in which my wife planned the vacation. If you remember from a previous post, when we decided to take this vacation, I asked for a couple of days to do some research and put together some pricing and options. The next thing I knew, she had gone ahead and booked Club Level at the Polynesian with the Deluxe meal plan...about an $8k package! Each time I tried to negotiate with my wife to bring down the price of the trip, it became combative and personal. Well, when we got there, the Polynesian was under rennovation and was definitely NOT worth the premium; we still had to get on buses to go to many of the parks; and the deluxe meal plan was FAR too much food. I had mentioned each of these points to her while trying to negotiate and plan the vacation, but like I said, it always ended up being an argument. She wanted what she wanted.
My wife was tired every single day. Each and every day, I was the first one awake and I had to drag her out of bed each day.
There were several days where I really asserted myself. I had concrete plans on the parks, the rides, the timing of certain shows, etc. On these days, we maximized our time and me and the kids had a blast. The problem was that at no time was my wife eagerly walking "beside" me as we moved from attraction to attraction. She was literally always lagging 10-15 feet behind me.
She gave me a few fitness tests during the trip. One day, our 4 year old got wet on one of the rides and she wanted to buy him a new outfit at a giftshop so that he would have dry clothes. It was 85 degrees outside, so I told her "no". I still cant believe that she listened to me; I fully expected her to buy an outfit for him behind my back. Anyways, later that same day, we had about 75 min to make it from one of the parks to one of the resorts for a dinner reservation. As we were leaving the park, she gave our 4 year old an ice cream treat and he proceeded to make a mess with it (getting some sticky stuff on himself and his clothes). She then wanted to go by the hotel room and change his clothes before dinner. I told her that we should clean him up (wash his hands and arms) and head to dinner. I told her going by the hotel room would turn a leisurely bus ride into a "mad dash" that would likely cause us to be late for dinner. She told me that "as usual, I was only thinking of myself". We did not go by the hotel, we made it to dinner on time, and my son was not THAT dirty. Dinner was not very enjoyable. We were both still full from lunch and both a little perturbed with each other by the disagreements from earlier. At one point during the dinner, my wife and I were both on our iPhones and she told me to put mine away because she didnt want it to look like we were checked out parents. I put it away while she continued doing whatever she was doing on hers.
One morning we went to the concierge lounge for breakfast and after making the kids' plates. She informed me that our 4 year old "wasnt going to eat any of this food". She said she was going to a nearby restaurant to buy him a separate meal. I told her that if he was hungry, he would eat the food in front of him..off she went. As soon as she left, I gave him a banana from the fruit bar which he happily ate. She returned after a few minutes and said that the other restuarant was further away than she thought it was.
On the fourth day of the trip, my wife wanted to hold me in bed when we woke up. She kissed me softly and told me that she loved me. She made some comments a couple times during the days that suggested that she wanted to be intimate. At one point she told me that she wanted me to show her the back of the bathroom door when we got back to the hotel. Another time, she told me that she had shaved her legs (thats foreplay for her). Also, once night before going to bed she genuinely asked me "please wake up tomorrow and love me"...heartwrenching. Despite, the suggestive talking, we never were intimate on the trip...partially because of the next bullet point
Since I had my vasectomy about 2 years ago, Ive had chronic testicular pain. (remember, the vasectomy that she let me get done 2 weeks before she told me that she wanted a divorce) I went on a course of cipro for like 6 months and that seemed to have "fixed" the problem and I rarely got pain down there any more. Well, after hours of walking around Disney, I had an acute epididimytus attack. For about 3-4 hours, I had to grin and bear the pain until after we had dinner and I was able to go back to the room. The pain was a bitter reminder of how she had allowed me to have the surgery while KNOWING that she was going to leave me. I know its not healthy, but I have a lot of resentment on that one.
At one point, we were having lunch and I was sort of joking and carrying on with the fellow that was taking our order. She tried to shush me and make me stop talking to him. Not a huge deal, but that sort of thing happens alot..very controlling.
One night before dinner, my wife put on a new dress that she had bought at one of the parks. It was sort of a hawaiian/wrap style dress that was a little showy (nothing on her shoulders). Right before we were to leave for dinner, she told off the dress and said that I hadnt paid her any attention in the new dress. I had told her that it looked nice and that I liked it, but I guess she was looking for something else. She put the dress back on, but this time with a shirt on underneath to make it less showy. She has criticized me for YEARS that I'm too touchy/gropey, and now that Im not groping her, its somehow my fault that Im not paying her attention.

Sorry to go into all those details, but I think it paints a pretty good picture of the mood of the vacation.

I’ve been out of town on business for 5 days. I’ve been mentally trying to gear up for a divorce, and the anxiety is getting near unbearable levels. Yesterday, I felt like my blood pressure was through the roof and I felt terrible almost all day. If this is the “right” decision, why does it feel so terrible? To complicate matters, My wife is being extremely nice and desperately trying to express her love for me. She is texting me nice messages every day telling me how much she loves me...telling me how she misses me and cant wait to watch TV together and have s*x once I get home. This is the most confusing and mentally fatiguing phase I’ve ever experienced in my life. How can she be so loving NOW? Where has this love and caring been for the last 2 years? Sure, there have been periods where she has showed me love, but it seems to come in a cycle. She shows me loveI show her love, but I somehow show love in the “wrong way”, I become “too” affectionate, I want to be intimate and 1 of 3 things happens: 1. We have “good” s*x where the primary focus is on HER pleasure and satisfaction. 2. We have “mediocre” s*x and she is totally not into it at all. 3. I am rejected outright. Outcomes 2 and 3 occur far more frequently than outcome 1. During this phase of the cycle, she begins to show me a decreasing amount of love. She insults me. She undermines me and pushes me to the point where I withdraw and begin to think about leaving the relationship. She then showers me with affection and accuses me of being cold (aka scathingly civil) while I am still hurt by her insults, rejection, and lack of partnership. This eventually draws me back in and the cycle starts over.

My unhappiness is not because of s*x. Sometimes that’s a part of it, but when I think about our relationship at a macro level, s*x is only a VERY small part of our dynamic. Sure it hurts when my advances are rejected but the following things are equally bothersome:

Mediocre s*x that my wife is not into….Her willingness to let me “use” her body to please myself, but no desire on her part to actively please ME
Constant moodiness and being tired.
Complaints and criticisms on food that I cook (typically some sort of baked or grilled meat, brown rice, and a fresh veggie). She constantly tells me that the food that I prepare is not “kid friendly” and then proceeds to cater to the kids and give them more options than they should have (usually crap food like mac and cheese, PB&J, or sugary yogurt). She also NEVER does the dishes when I cook. I always end up cleaning dishes off the table and washing the dishes. 9 times out of 10, when we eat at home, I am the one cooking and cleaning up afterwards.
The activities that I get excited about, She doesn’t care about and has no interest in being a part of them. Ive tried to find common ground for us and it just always ends up feeling like either I'm dragging her or she is dragging me along. There is no sense of "togetherness"
I feel like a cheapskate. My wife is so generous and gives away and donates money that WE DON’T HAVE! This causes me to be the constant prude when it comes to giving and generousity. I feel like I always have to "not give" to balance my wife's giving nature.
My wife is STILL constantly talking about buying a new home and starting a business. I've told her specifically that this topic stresses me out and that it makes me feel paralized and gives me a fear of moving forward with her. She continues to talk about it.
My wife acts differently when around people other than me. She IS capable of having fun. While I was out of town, a few days ago, she was invited over to dinner party by an extremely rich gay couple. She told me over the phone about how much fun she had. She told me that one of the gay guys told her that she was his "straight soul mate". She said that talked about literature, art, etc. She got home around 3am that night. How does she have the energy to go out, have fun, and stay out until 3am??? Remember this is the wife that is ALWAYS too tired to do anything. On that same night, I went to a concert by myself - I also had a great time. After hearing about my wife's evening, I couldnt help thinking about how my night would have been had she been with me. I suspect that she would have been irritated that I arrived at the venue so early because I wanted a spot up front at the general admission show. She would have been aggrevated by the couple of beers I had before the show. The wait to get inside would have been too long. It would have been too cold while waiting. She would have been bothered by someone smoking in line next to us. The music would have been too loud once the show started, etc...etc.

As you can probably tell...Im still all over the place. I've got so much built up resentment. Its hard to start fresh when predictive patterns have emerged and been identified. Despite all this, my axiety is near crippling right now. The idea of "divorce" and no longer having the family that I am a part of....despite my pros and cons and all that other stuff, Im just having a hard time getting my arms around it.

When I got home from work last night, I decided to re-read some of the MMSLP...specifically chapter 16: Timeline for using the MAP...aka the "phases"....

phase 4: "stating your intentions clearly"; I've done this. several months ago, I clearly told my wife about my needs and my unhappiness in the marriage. I clearly let her know that continuing in the marriage as it exists is not an option.

phase 5: "give up on her". This is the phase I have been in for at least 4-5 weeks (possibly even longer - perhaps, I was in this phase and didnt even know it and thats why I went for drinks with a 22 year old single female friend?). I definitely and officially entered this phase though on the evening that I told my wife that I wanted a divorce.

I'd gotten to this point pretty naturally - definitely didnt need chapter 16 to help me get here. I just sort of arrived here. 

Perhaps my crippling levels of anxiety right now are because I had been planning to go straight from phase 5 to separation/divorce? The MMSLP book mentions a phase 6 called "the ultimatum". This is supposed to be the phase where you present 2 options to your wife:

Option A: basically a list of demands that must be met for you to stay in the marriage. Counceling, s*x frequency, etc...basically outline all the stuff I mentioned above and someone quantitativly define how it needs to change 

Option B: A signed separation agreement

I had been planning to simply present option B once I meet with the attorney later this week. The idea of presenting an option A along with option B somehow caused my anxiety to decrease sharply. why is that? If I think about it logically, I honestly cannot imagine being able to address and change all the items mentioned above. If I think about it logically, all this is going to do is put myself back on the rollercoaster and prolong the madness....but WHY does the thought of it made me feel better?

Ok, thats a long enough post for now. Lets have some dialog please...I need it.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Jonas said:


> The idea of presenting an option A along with option B somehow caused my anxiety to decrease sharply. *why is that?* If I think about it logically, I honestly cannot imagine being able to address and change all the items mentioned above. If I think about it logically, all this is going to do is put myself back on the rollercoaster and prolong the madness....but WHY does the thought of it made me feel better?


Wow, Jonas.

You've had a lot going on. I'm glad you took time to sit down and write down everything about the trip, as well as interactions over the last few weeks. It was probably very cathartic to get it all out.

Quite honestly, the trip sounds pretty bad . I'm sure you and the kids had fun (who doesn't have fun at Disney?) but it sounds like your wife did everything in her power, whether consciously or subconsciously, to sabotage your efforts.

I think the bottom line is you've checked out -- you checked out awhile ago but have been doing everything you can think of to fix it, make it work, make it right.

To your point above in the quote: you ask why your anxiety increases when you think of Option A. Actually you answered your own question when you go on to state this: "If I think about it logically, all this is going to do is put myself back on the rollercoaster and prolong the madness...." And you are absolutely correct. If you go with Option A, she will make empty promises again, promise to go to therapy, counseling, have more sex, blah blah blah. You've already been down this road with her many times. Where has it gotten you? 

One thing it *has* done though is give you more clarity that her idea of marriage is seriously effed up.

I think you should go straight to Option B and here's why. There is no greater dose of reality than being handed divorce papers that clearly state "irreconcilable differences" or whatever grounds you choose to file. It will be very sobering for her to realize how seriously unhappy you are and what she has driven you to do due to her lack of cooperation.

Having said that, I believe you're STILL going to get the same reaction from her -- empty promises of therapy and counseling, more sex, blah blah blah, but THIS time she will realize she either cuts the muster or YOU cut her out of your life. Going to a lawyer and drawing up papers is a BIG step, and she will realize this is her last chance. But you have to mean it. After her cries and pleas, you cannot immediately hug her and say "No worry darling, we won't go through with it." Nope -- THIS time, after all her cries and pleas, you have to remain steadfast and strong that you can't live this way any longer.

Divorce papers are sobering. That's why it's recommended on TAM over and over. No one is saying you actually have to GET divorced. Who knows? Maybe she will rise to the challenge and become the partner you've always wanted. Nothing like a looming divorce to light a fire of change under her butt.

You must really start the 180 *for yourself*; not to be a jerk or play hardball or force her to change, but because YOU need to begin healing from all the drama that has been your marriage. When you start to feel better, stronger, more mental clarity, you will find yourself in a much better position to judge whether or not this marriage is worth saving. You must be prepared for whatever you learn though: you may discover that you really DON'T want to be married to her after all. The 180 can be a bit scary because it separates you from the codependence of a relationship and you start to learn things about yourself you never knew, truths that you are no longer willing to deny. I know you've already been doing a "light 180" but you've never done it with such a big price on the line (divorce papers).

Your fears of divorce are completely normal. Who wouldn't be afraid of such a big change? But you will find as you begin to "study" her reaction from 50,000 feet above -- as an observer, no longer a participant caught in the drama -- that you don't even really _like_ this woman anymore, and you deserve far more than an empty, half-a$$ed marriage. Personally, based on all the things you've written, my gut tells me she's not the right life-partner for you. But I don't know her OR you  and you have to come to your own conclusion. 

It will get easier. I remember the day I finally realized it was over and there was NOTHING my husband could do to change it. I had a new lease on life and started moving forward to making my own happiness.

Divorce sucks. But so does living in a lousy marriage with a partner who won't meet you halfway.

Keep posting your thoughts.


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Gosh, you are so right in that I have "checked out"...Im not sure exactly when it happened, but it did. Im feeling really guilty right now though for having done so. My wife is being an absolute sweetheart right now. I'm doing the 180 and seeing my wife's reaction is heartwrenching. Usually at this point in the rollercoaster cycle, she bombards me with affection and I hop right back on the rollercoaster. I cater to her, snuggle with her, engage (and sometimes even pester) her for s*x. I normally "play along" and just pretend that everything is wonderful - fake it 'til you make it sort of approach. The simple fact that Im not engaging her for s*x is REALLY confusing her. For the last week of so, she's also been pressuring me to tell her exactly what I want for Christmas so that she can get it for me. She knows that Ive been wanting one of those "goPro" cameras for a while, but she doesnt know which model and she has been hounding me almost every day to tell her which model. I finally told her that she should hold off because we really needed to pay off our Disney vacation and she responded with "so, we arent getting Christmas presents for each other now?"...sigh...Aside from the "Christmas present weirdness", she keeps asking me: "whats wrong?", "why are you being so distant?", "whats going on?", "why arent you interested in s*x?"....are you kidding me?!?!?! After our conversation several weeks ago, how can she not know EXACTLY whats "wrong" with me! How can she not know EXACTLY the sort of pain and anxiety that I am going through right now. Everytime we talk, about the ONLY thing she wants to talk about is opening a business of some sort. I've told her this stressed me out SO many times, but she keeps bringing it up.

I had been out of town for 5-6 days on business and came home yesterday. When I got home, I scooped my children up and hugged the daylights out of them. We all feel on the couch together and just held each other for a while - me and the kids I mean - my wife was sort of standing there wondering why I wasnt hugging the daylights out of her.

We went to dinner last night and while I was in the bathroom washing my hands, apparently my wife "rich gay soulmate" arrived and was invited to pull up a chair and join us for dinner. He was a nice fellow - an older gent with a British accent. I didnt mind him joining us at all. Honestly, it sort of took some of the pressure off of me. On the way home (about a 40 min drive), again, the only topic my wife wanted to talk about was opening a business. She asked me why I was so uninterested and distant. I reminded her that she KNEW how I felt about the topic.

Before going to bed, she told me again that I was being "scathingly civil". I tried to sleep next to her, but she turned the wall heater up to the point where I had sweat beads popping on my forehead (she had a cough and said that the "cold air" was making it worse). I slept terribly on the sofa to escape the heat - took me forever to fall asleep. I guess she didnt realize that I had left the bedroom because she was surprised to find me on the sofa this morning. She asked again what was "going on" and said that she felt like there was "someone else" coming between us. She asked if I was just being civil so that I could leave her in the Spring. I assured her that there was no other woman and that I wasnt biding time until the Spring (this is technically true since Im only biding time until I can get a parenting agreement of some sort in place - hopefully tomorrow). I still feel terrible. I feel guilty and selfing. I feel like I am running away from my family.

Ive been reading a lot lately about narcissism and emotion abuse. I found this one article that REALLY hit home for me: 
http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/01/30/10-signs-your-girlfriend-or-wife-is-an-emotional-bully/

A lot of the characteristics apply to BOTH of us. I talked to my counselor about this and he assures me that the very fact that I am asking the question of whether I am the narcissist in the relationship is a pretty sure sign that I am not. A true narcissist, he assures me, would never entertain the notion that he/she might be a narcissist - nascissists dont think they have any problems. Interesting sidenote: my wife never signed up for the independent counseling that I told her that she absolutely HAD to sign up for right after I told her I wanted a divorce 3-4 weeks ago.

Im also taking steps to go ahead and get my 10 year old into counseling. I love him so much and am so worried about him. Honestly, he needs counseling regardless of the upcoming separation/divorce. He has OCD, panic attacks, and irrational fears. Lately, he's been consumed by the fear that someone is trying to poison him. He always complains that he is tired and that he doesnt feel good. Last night I heard him sort of gasp for breath - like a big inhale and audible exhale. Thats when it hit me: my 10 year old son very likely feels EXACTLY the same way I feel - in my entire life, only crippling levels of anxiety cause me to breath like that. Im so afriad that a divorce will make his mental health worse, but there is a part of me that wonders if a healthy separation will make him feel better. How messed up is that?!?!?

Thats enough for now. Sorry my posts are always so long.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Hey Jonas,

Thanks for the great article on narcissistic people. Even though ex and I are divorced, it helps me tremendously to read things like that -- to know that it wasn't "all in my head"; that I didn't imagine it all.

How's it going? Did you meet with the lawyer? I've been thinking about you and hoping that you're hanging in there and feeling strong in your decision-making 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Jonas (Jul 27, 2013)

Hi happy. I sent you a private message. Going to take a pause on public posts for a little while.


----------



## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Jonas said:


> Hi happy. I sent you a private message. Going to take a pause on public posts for a little while.


Got your msg... Will write tomorrow . Busy Turkey week! Lol...
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------

