# Manning up - am I doing it wrong?



## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

So, I've been on the No More Mr. Nice Guy / Married Man Sex Life Primer / Alpha-Beta journey for a few months and have made a number of changes and improvements that I'm happy with, while recognizing that I still have more to do.

My question is: If my wife fails to respond to my changes in any lasting way, how will I know if I'm doing it wrong or if she's simply not into me?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

hubbydude said:


> So, I've been on the No More Mr. Nice Guy / Married Man Sex Life Primer / Alpha-Beta journey for a few months and have made a number of changes and improvements that I'm happy with, while recognizing that I still have more to do.
> 
> My question is: If my wife fails to respond to my changes in any lasting way, how will I know if I'm doing it wrong or if she's simply not into me?


You are doing it wrong when you *expect *it to yield changes in her. As I understand it, the point is to make changes in and for YOU. And if she comes along for the ride, so much the better.


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## FormerSelf (Apr 21, 2013)

If your improvements are truly undergoing with specific goals and purpose defined...then her reactions/responses to you ought to be improved as well.

She may not be responding better because A. She is at a place that is beyond reconciliation, or B. You changes are not observed by her because they have not be demonstrated properly or your goals aren't dynamic enough.

BUt like previous poster said, you sole motivation should be changing for your own personal betterment and quality of life...her reactions are a fruit of that.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

remember, the final solution based on mmslp is that you have sex with a new wife, should the old one not want to come along...


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

Yep, I'm doing it wrong....bollox!

It seems my mistake is that my motivation for bettering myself is a better relationship with my wife. While this is ultimately the spark that get's things moving, and is a potential (likely?) consequence of self-improvement, I'm hearing that it shouldn't be what's driving me to better myself.

I need another source of motivation.


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## thenub (Oct 3, 2014)

Look in the mirror. Are you happy with what you see? If not, that's your motivation.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

hubbydude said:


> Yep, I'm doing it wrong....bollox!
> 
> It seems my mistake is that my motivation for bettering myself is a better relationship with my wife. While this is ultimately the spark that get's things moving, and is a potential (likely?) consequence of self-improvement, I'm hearing that it shouldn't be what's driving me to better myself.
> 
> I need another source of motivation.


All YOU can change is YOU. When I started my MAP, I looked at what I needed to change: drop weight, build some upper body strength, get out of negativity, minimize whininess. I am still working on 1 and 2, doing very well on 3 and 4. Wife has noticed and it helped if you get my drift. If it hadn't, the improving me is better than the old me. I am good with that, and in a better place. If the W doesn't want a part of that, it is on her, not me. D should always be an option, even if it is the 100th option.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

What changes have you made?

Why did you pick those ones?

What are you currently working on?

What does success mean to you?


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## homerjay (Dec 12, 2014)

hubbydude said:


> So, I've been on the No More Mr. Nice Guy / Married Man Sex Life Primer / Alpha-Beta journey for a few months and have made a number of changes and improvements that I'm happy with, while recognizing that I still have more to do.
> 
> My question is: If my wife fails to respond to my changes in any lasting way, how will I know if I'm doing it wrong or if she's simply not into me?


i dont understand. Why does your wife disrespect you? andvwhy is she seemingly demanding yiu man up?


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

marduk said:


> What changes have you made?


I've improved my physique. I've improved my performance at all the "man" jobs around the house - finally built the fence in the back yard, landscaping in the front, I'm taking care of her car instead of leaving it to her etc.



marduk said:


> Why did you pick those ones?


They're predictably masculine so they were perhaps obvious choices to improve my "alpha" traits.



marduk said:


> What are you currently working on?


On reflection, nothing. I've been sulking that everything I am already doing is not enough.



marduk said:


> What does success mean to you?


It means I have my sh!t together. That I'm more confident, self-assured and independent. I'm thinking that a suitable measure of success is whether I believe that I could be happy, confident and content without my wife.

If we split up now and I had to move on without her I would be quite devastated and would likely take some time to get over her. I'm thinking this is a problem.


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

homerjay said:


> i dont understand. Why does your wife disrespect you? andvwhy is she seemingly demanding yiu man up?


She's not demanding that I man up. I am. My mistake is that I'm demanding that she respond accordingly.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

hubbydude said:


> I've improved my physique. I've improved my performance at all the "man" jobs around the house - finally built the fence in the back yard, landscaping in the front, I'm taking care of her car instead of leaving it to her etc.


This is good. 




> They're predictably masculine so they were perhaps obvious choices to improve my "alpha" traits.


Not what I meant. 

Why did you do these first? Because you're weak in these areas? Because it's important to you?

Or because you hoped it would make her fawn over you?



> On reflection, nothing. I've been sulking that everything I am already doing is not enough.


Is there something more you could be doing?

When you look in the mirror, what do you like least about yourself?



> It means I have my sh!t together. That I'm more confident, self-assured and independent. I'm thinking that a suitable measure of success is whether I believe that I could be happy, confident and content without my wife.
> 
> If we split up now and I had to move on without her I would be quite devastated and would likely take some time to get over her. I'm thinking this is a problem.


yup. 

What worked for me here...

Was assuming we would end. And lived with that possibility, deep down. Examined it from all angles. 

And made my peace with it. 

Helped a lot.


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## dtc37 (Nov 18, 2014)

Check your messages I sent you a vid that helped me a lot


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## Iver (Mar 8, 2013)

dtc37 said:


> Check your messages I sent you a vid that helped me a lot


Just out of curiosity - what is this video? Is it available via YouTube?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

hubbydude said:


> I need another source of motivation.



Getting even works.

Here's my chart by the way...

View attachment 32065


(This is what you get when you marry a mathematician..)


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## delupt (Dec 1, 2014)

marduk said:


> This is good.
> What worked for me here... Was assuming we would end. And lived with that possibility, deep down. Examined it from all angles.
> 
> And made my peace with it. Helped a lot.


Agreed. Even after finally getting on message, I still felt (and probably acted) all pissy and butt-hurt about the failed marriage and my STBXW's lack of response (well, she responded to my 'improvements', but she just doubled-down on the tantrums and fantasised that I was having an affair to justify her bad behaviour). 

Once I went '180', accepted it was over, truly did things for me and gave no sh!ts about her reaction, I handled things a lot better and have mourned the dead relationship. 
You will know when you are ready to pull the trigger.


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## Confused Aussie (Mar 27, 2014)

delupt said:


> (well, she responded to my 'improvements', but she just doubled-down on the tantrums and fantasised that I was having an affair to justify her bad behaviour)


You know that moment when the pin drops and it all becomes so clear?

I don't know how I can thank you but I'm in your debt.


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## askari (Jun 21, 2012)

I admit that I haven't read any of the 'man up'/Alpha male type books that are out there.

I think its quite simple...you just show her that you don't need her in your life and you could cope very well, even better if she wasnt around.

Do the things that your wife would normally do; iron your own shirt, YOU take the dog to the vet, YOU pay the bills, YOU call the window cleaner, YOU go buy the milk, YOU take your car for a service etc etc. I'm not trying to sound sexist atall but just show her that you really don't need her in your life. You can manage with out her. She is 'dispensible'.

She might think...ahhhhh I can relax now as there is nothing to do. But if she has half a brain it will slowly dawn on her that you no longer need her and it will hit her like a bolt....or not as with my wife.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

You'd be surprised as to what complacency and lack of empathy will do...


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

askari said:


> I admit that I haven't read any of the 'man up'/Alpha male type books that are out there.
> 
> I think its quite simple...you just show her that you don't need her in your life and you could cope very well, even better if she wasnt around.
> 
> ...


that is not really manning up. He should do more of the manly chores and enforce consequences to her not pulling her weight on the feminine chores. And start to detach a bit.


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

marduk said:


> Not what I meant.
> 
> Why did you do these first? Because you're weak in these areas? Because it's important to you?
> 
> Or because you hoped it would make her fawn over you?


All of those I guess. I'm naturally better at Beta than Alpha so I figured this is where I had the greatest scope for improvement.



marduk said:


> Is there something more you could be doing?
> 
> When you look in the mirror, what do you like least about yourself?


I'm fairly content with what I see in the mirror. I think my next area to improve is perhaps my social skills. I could be a little more socially confident and a little more Alpha in social situations.

If I imagine that my wife and I were to split up and ask myself what would be my biggest challenge in moving on and meeting someone else, then it would definately be on the social side and in being more confident approaching people and a little more dominant socially.




marduk said:


> yup.
> 
> What worked for me here...
> 
> ...


I think this has to be my motivation moving forward......to get myself to the point where I don't feel like I need my wife in order to feel happy, confident and content. This goes against everything I've ever been lead to believe, but it needs to happen.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

hubbydude said:


> All of those I guess. I'm naturally better at Beta than Alpha so I figured this is where I had the greatest scope for improvement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Respectully, and with much compassion...

This sounds very weak and wishy washy. 

Is this the guy that you are?

I don't think it is. For me, I allowed myself to get that way because I was lazy and afraid.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

fake it until you make it applies here....


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

marduk said:


> Respectully, and with much compassion...
> 
> This sounds very weak and wishy washy.
> 
> ...


No, that's not all of me, just the parts I'm working on. Some context.....

We're from the UK but dreamed of a new life in Canada. My wife was the driving force behind the idea but I was totally into it too. Four years ago I made it happen. I took my wife, our kids, packed up our lives and set us up here in Ontario.

I've worked hard and done well in my job since we moved. I provide a nice home, pay 90% of the bills and put food on the table. We still own our old house in the UK and maintain it as a nest egg for our future. I handle all of this.

I'm ensuring our kids have an education when they're older and that if anything ever happened to me my family wouldn't have any financial worries.

I built the deck in our backyard and finished off the fence a few months ago. I do all the "man" chores around the house, the yard and the garage.

I do my fair share of household chores, in fact I'm the tidy one.

I work out 3 days a week. 2 days of weights, 1 day of cardio. I'm in good shape.

I hang out with my buddies pretty much every Friday night. I have a great circle of friends and rarely say No to invites.

I'm actively involved with the kids, help them out with homework, shuttle them to and from activities, guide them through life's many challenges, discipline them when needed, try to impart manners, wisdom, and as much fun as I can squeeze into a day.

At a glance, I don't see much in the way of weakness or wishy-washyness there but I'm very much open to any suggestions to the contrary.

I'm not under confident but no-one would describe me as being outwardly confident either. This is something I want to improve.

Other than that, what else can I do? I have a strong emotional attachment to my wife (of course I do, she's my wife), but given the current state of our relationship I'm seeing this as a bad thing. Am I still doing it wrong?


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

To echo what others have said, it is about you and not her. If she comes along for the ride then great. If not, then it may be best to move on. I did a lot of what is written in NMMNG and no change whatsoever. In fact, we have less sex than ever. Went from 5 or 6 times a year to about once per year.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

hubbydude, what was your dating life like? Not just with your wife, but including your wife?

What attracted your wife and those other women to you?


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## homerjay (Dec 12, 2014)

I don't get it....so you want your wife to accept you as a fitter person? Why wouldn't she now?


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

tyler1978 said:


> To echo what others have said, it is about you and not her. If she comes along for the ride then great. If not, then it may be best to move on. I did a lot of what is written in NMMNG and no change whatsoever. In fact, we have less sex than ever. Went from 5 or 6 times a year to about once per year.


And you're still together?


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

marduk said:


> hubbydude, what was your dating life like? Not just with your wife, but including your wife?
> 
> What attracted your wife and those other women to you?


I was 17 when I met my wife so I didn't do much dating before her. Is that a good or bad thing? I don't know.

What attracted my wife to me? I'd love to know. If you asked me at the time I would have said it was because I was a nice guy, we had similar interests, and she was attracted to my long hair and metalhead image  On reflection, I wonder if I was simply the safe bet, the reliable one, the one that stuck around, the one that showed more prolonged interest than the other guys, the one willing to go the extra yard. Either way, I'm not sure I ever lit her fire. That's not a thought that makes me feel good.

I should probably be giving up, right? That's not a thought that makes me feel good either.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Ok then. Let me ask you an uncomfortable question. 

What turns your wife on about other guys?


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,

I like what I'm reading from you here. This is some hardcore and unflinching honesty. 

Have you communicated in just this manner with your wife? 

It really is ok to say: I'm starting to believe that you married me because I'd be a good father/provider. A high quality co-parent not a life partner and lover. 

-----------
Your wife prizes stability - it's why she married you. So her default response will be deceptive. She will say stuff that is completely out of alignment with what she DOES. How she ACTS. 

So this is where you say: If you continue to be deceitful, the marriage can't survive. If however, you tell me the truth, however painful, I'm willing to try to work towards a mutually positive marriage. And just so we are clear - right now it is not a positive marriage for me. So I need to know you are committed to addressing that. 






hubbydude said:


> I was 17 when I met my wife so I didn't do much dating before her. Is that a good or bad thing? I don't know.
> 
> What attracted my wife to me? I'd love to know. If you asked me at the time I would have said it was because I was a nice guy, we had similar interests, and she was attracted to my long hair and metalhead image  On reflection, I wonder if I was simply the safe bet, the reliable one, the one that stuck around, the one that showed more prolonged interest than the other guys, the one willing to go the extra yard. Either way, I'm not sure I ever lit her fire. That's not a thought that makes me feel good.
> 
> I should probably be giving up, right? That's not a thought that makes me feel good either.


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

marduk said:


> Ok then. Let me ask you an uncomfortable question.
> 
> What turns your wife on about other guys?


The million dollar question. I've thought about it, and I have no freaking idea. She doesn't comment on other guys. She doesn't react to other guys in the neighbourhood or comment on anyone in our circle of friends. Maybe I need to pay more attention and pick up some clues.

I actually asked her once, in all seriousness, if she was gay. I'm pretty sure she's not. But I worry that she's simply dead in the sexual department 

Short of Jason Statham knocking on her door this evening, I'm not sure if anyone could light her fire.


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> HD,
> 
> I like what I'm reading from you here. This is some hardcore and unflinching honesty.
> 
> ...


This is good, thanks!

This isn't a million miles from a conversation we had a couple of weeks ago. My problem is that I tried to frame the conversation pretty much as you suggested but I actually came off a little whiny and needy. It's difficult to display assertiveness and confidence when saying to your wife "I feel like you love me but you're not in love with me".

I'm also not sure that words are doing it for us. We've had a few conversations over recent months and I feel like I now need more actions than words. I'm confident that my wife is pretty happy with me in the comfort / contentment sense, which is essential in a marriage. But I want to get her panties wet too, and all the talking in the world isn't going to do that.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

hubbydude said:


> The million dollar question. I've thought about it, and I have no freaking idea. She doesn't comment on other guys. She doesn't react to other guys in the neighbourhood or comment on anyone in our circle of friends. Maybe I need to pay more attention and pick up some clues.
> 
> I actually asked her once, in all seriousness, if she was gay. I'm pretty sure she's not. But I worry that she's simply dead in the sexual department
> 
> Short of Jason Statham knocking on her door this evening, I'm not sure if anyone could light her fire.


I thought that was the case, too.

Turns out I just wasn't paying attention.

You could read story after story on TAM's infidelity section on husbands who thought their wives were just not that sexual...

Until some hot stud came along.

Not always the case, of course, and I'm not trying to instill fear...

But I learned a lot about my wife by checking my ego and my insecurities at the door and really, really paying attention.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

marduk said:


> Ok then. Let me ask you an uncomfortable question.
> 
> What turns your wife on about other guys?



What makes you think many of the wives in this context are turned on by anyone? Some may, but not the emotional zombie types.

 optional


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

MEM11363 said:


> It really is ok to say: I'm starting to believe that you married me because I'd be a good father/provider. A high quality co-parent not a life partner and lover.



MEM, at the risk of stating the obvious the wife knows all that.... And barring miraculous Hail Mary 2 point conversions at the 11th hour it ain't working. 

You assume rational decision making. It's not rational but it is what it is...


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

john117 said:


> What makes you think many of the wives in this context are turned on by anyone?
> 
> optional


Let me tell you a story John. Normally I don't respond to your comments because I know you're not going to actually listen to what I'm trying to say, but maybe this will help enlighten HD.

Me of a few years ago had a buddy. Now this buddy had a wife and they followed the standard path that many of us do...

And just accept that their OK sex life had now petered down to pretty much zero.

And he accepted as much. I mean, he had heard for years that she was never very sexual, and she didn't pay much attention to other guys, and pretty much just was a happy go lucky lady who didn't really have much of a sex drive to begin with and now didn't have one.

For various reasons, I went on a journey of self-improvement. Over the course of a few months I made some pretty dramatic changes in many areas.

One day, the doorbell rang when my wife was out. It was my buddy's wife asking if her kids could play with mine. So I shrugged and said "sure." Not really noticing her new hairdo, her make up, her low cut top, her extra tight jeans. I was curious why she came over wearing stillettos...

And then I started to clue in. But I thought "nah, she's not sexual, she must be going out somewhere that night or something..."

And then she came on to me full-bore. Like a beast in heat. Dropping sexual innuendo like you would not believe...

Of course I shooed her out the door and I tried to level with my buddy. But, he just couldn't see it, and got mad at me...

And then she started boning his best friend.

Turns out, after all, she was pretty damn sexual. Just not with him.

Now, I'm not saying that's your wife, or all wives, or even hinting at the percentage of all "not very sexual" wives in general... and I'm certainly not suggesting that HD's wife is going to cheat on him.

But I am saying that there's been more than one dude surprised at how sexual their wives actually are, either to their detrement or their benefit.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Agreed. But as we say in statistics...

"Anecdotal evidence isn't"

If you live with someone for 5, 10, or more years you get a very good feel of their, how to put it, sexual potential. Its not rocket science. 

If you sense the sexual potential of your spouse yet the sheets remain undisturbed well yea, you're right. But if you feel as much sexual potential from your spouse as you do from a shorted out battery then you know it's not you.

I have been on TAM for nearly two years and that's the biggest mistake I see people do. They don't understand what they're dealing with. I stopped initiating any kind of intimacy with my wife and she's acting mega pi$$ed off like you would not believe. But not enough to make an issue of it or see what she's doing to kill the marriage. Maybe she can't read minds. I can. I know what I'm seeing and what I'm not. 

Most people take the easy way out and don't think. It's that simple.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

I couldn't disagree with you more, john. Be fatalistic all you want in your marriage.

HD's still has a heartbeat. There may be some missing component there that may spark a response that may shock everyone -- both HD and his wife.

It's happened before. It COULD happen here.

Might as well give it a go, right HD?


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

marduk said:


> I couldn't disagree with you more, john. Be fatalistic all you want in your marriage.
> 
> HD's still has a heartbeat. There may be some missing component there that may spark a response that may shock everyone -- both HD and his wife.
> 
> ...


I'm up for giving everything and anything a go.......although I fear I'm running out of ideas.

I'll certainly be paying more attention to how she acts around other guys.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

How do you seduce her? Does anything work?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

marduk said:


> I couldn't disagree with you more, john. Be fatalistic all you want in your marriage.
> 
> HD's still has a heartbeat. There may be some missing component there that may spark a response that may shock everyone -- both HD and his wife.
> 
> ...



You're right. It could happen. Apple could call me tomorrow and offer me Jony Ive's job too.

When you approach a problem you need to understand its boundary conditions. If HD has a reasonable faith in Mrs. HD's intimacy potential by all means he should try everything in the book.

Fatalistic approaches are useful because most people are not good in assessing probabilities. It's a numbers game after all. 60/40? Sure. 75/25? Maybe. 95/5? Hmmmm.

Understanding the boundary conditions is paramount. Most people don't.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

hubbydude said:


> I'm up for giving everything and anything a go.......although I fear I'm running out of ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll certainly be paying more attention to how she acts around other guys.



Pay attention to whom she dresses for. 

My wife absolutely dresses to kill for work. When she goes out with us... Bag lady. My daughters stopped going out with her till she realized it.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

To me, manning up has always been about not taking crap from anyone. Treating people with respect, but demanding respect in return. Having integrity and honour and self-respect. Standing up for yourself. Being strong in character as well as body. Doing what needs to be done without complaint or expectation of reward. Expecting the same from the other person in the relationship. But it's not about being a jerk either.

A hint that you're on the right path is when you start getting attention from OTHER women besides your wife. It may take longer to get attention from your wife because she's so used to thinking of you differently. Or your wife may be beyond your power, but at least you've made yourself into someone who can be self-sufficient after a break-up.

And honestly, I'm convinced that a lot of libido dysfunction in the bedroom stems from each partner approaching the other the way THEY would want to be approached. You have to approach it the way your WIFE wants to be approached. If you treat sex as something she should do for you, she's going to sense that selfishness and feel like you don't care about her as an individual, just as a body. Your wife doesn't need to see you as a hot stud. She needs to see you as someone who cares about HER pleasure above all else.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

And if you live a structured life on a mostly married Bible Belt community the only women you will encounter are married or coworkers or both... 

Maybe I can hit on the moms in my Sunday Arabic class...

لول


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

So then - what did she say during this conversation? 

How often are you physically playful with her? Do you wrestle with her, smack her on the butt when she's being bltchy.





hubbydude said:


> This is good, thanks!
> 
> This isn't a million miles from a conversation we had a couple of weeks ago. My problem is that I tried to frame the conversation pretty much as you suggested but I actually came off a little whiny and needy. It's difficult to display assertiveness and confidence when saying to your wife "I feel like you love me but you're not in love with me".
> 
> I'm also not sure that words are doing it for us. We've had a few conversations over recent months and I feel like I now need more actions than words. I'm confident that my wife is pretty happy with me in the comfort / contentment sense, which is essential in a marriage. But I want to get her panties wet too, and all the talking in the world isn't going to do that.


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> So then - what did she say during this conversation?
> 
> How often are you physically playful with her? Do you wrestle with her, smack her on the butt when she's being bltchy.


Until I read MMSLP and NMMNG and started using these forums, I would have said that I had tried everything. I've certainly tried all the playfullness you refer to.

In mid-October, after a few weeks of tension and some talking, we decided to set aside every Wednesday and Saturday as "date" night. No expectations, just two evenings set aside to spend time together. It went well for about 6 weeks before dwindling away. She simply wasn't reciprocating my effort.

Our last "date" night was a couple of weeks ago. As ever, I put effort into it....afterall, I want to date my wife. I took her out for lunch in the afternoon, making sure I was presentable, confident, cheery, fun. I went to the gym early so that we would have the whole evening together. As she took the kids to bed I popped out and picked up a bottle of her favourite wine. As soon as the kids are down I switch off the TV, put on some music and give her my undivided attention. She spent half the time fiddling on her phone and we ended up arguing.

It was after this that we had our conversation about how it seems that she simply isn't into me and that I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall trying to "date" her. If we had just been on a first or second date I would be thinking that there's little point investing any more time and effort into this one.

I've simply switched off since then. I wouldn't say I'm full-on 180 but I'm no longer initiating any kind of affectionate interactions. She's picked up a little, but that's mainly because she thinks I'm upset with her and I don't expect it to last.

On a positive note, I'm genuinely not upset with her. I'm at a point where I'm pretty much coming to terms with how things are and choosing not to invest any more energy into something that's not working. I'm hoping (but not expecting) that she'll pick up where I've left off and that things improve, but if they don't then so be it.

From all the advice I'm reading here, I'm thinking that I need to continue coming to terms with the condition of our relationship and focus my efforts on me, and not "us". We'll see what happens.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

HD you're finding out what I have been saying for 2 years on TAM. If your spouse is so adamant against intimacy to the point of accepting this state in your marriage the usual DIY techniques are not likely to work very well.

Any improvement you achieve upon yourself will be icing on the cake for yourself as you indicated. But in hardened cases altering the behavior of another person by self improvement is likely a pipe dream or wishful thinking.


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

john117 said:


> HD you're finding out what I have been saying for 2 years on TAM. If your spouse is so adamant against intimacy to the point of accepting this state in your marriage the usual DIY techniques are not likely to work very well.
> 
> Any improvement you achieve upon yourself will be icing on the cake for yourself as you indicated. But in hardened cases altering the behavior of another person by self improvement is likely a pipe dream or wishful thinking.


The challenge is that it's not her behaviour I want to change, it's her desire. I can influence her behaviour, I can whine, moan, pout, plead, beg, shower her with gifts and attention, in order to influence her behaviour. But then her behaviour is hollow and simply can't last. I want her to "want" me. Simply turning up and being there is not enough.

If there's some desire there, then self-improvement leading to behavioural changes might indeed work. It might remove the cloud of laziness and complacency that fogs up any relationship over time. This is still what I'm hoping our outcome will be. But if there's simply no desire there in the first place then it's quite likely that nothing I do will have the impact I'd like. That's not her fault or mine, niether of us can control her biology or neurology.

I figure the only positive approach for me is to do as everyone suggests, make all those changes anyway, for me, and if "we" improve in the process then great, but if not then I have to be willing to accept it.


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

Ultimately, I was doing it wrong, for the exact reason that people have suggested. I was focussing on "us" and not on me. I need to come to terms with the prospect that we might simply not work out. If we're naturally "de-coupling" and nothing I do is likely to change that then putting all my effort into stopping it is simply going to end up in more frustration, more resentment, and is not good for either of us.

I think that in a practical sense I've been doing all the right things and need to continue doing them. In an emotional sense however, I've had it all wrong. I need to change my motivation, focus more on me, and mourn the loss of a relationship that may have existed more in my head and my heart than it did in reality. That's a cold, hard thing to consider but it needs to be done, and perhaps "manning up" means facing up to reality, changing the things you can change, and accepting the things you can't.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Desire is a behavior  

Focus on improving yourself has a bit of a placebo effect too. You feel better about yourself regardless. 

That's why I'm so skeptical of the usual DIY methods. Very few companies for example have convinced their customer to DESIRE their products. Apple is one. BMW is another. Doing this is not trivial even when you're talking about a phone or a toaster oven. For a person it's damned difficult.

A bit of fear or implied fear and doom may work short term (aka Hail Mary 2 point conversion as the clock runs out) but in all fairness humans don't respond well to blackmail.

The key to improving desire is to break thru the LD wall, be it complacency, resentment, fear, culture, childhood... I don't doubt the DIY methods work and I certainly like the idea of focusing on myself but I am a realist and expect miracles only when I'm in control.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I think I could fall in love with and build a great desire for any man of true maturity and intelligence who took the time to get to know me, really listen to me, and inspire me by his genuinely good character and sincere love for me. I think sustained desire has little to do with a man's physical measurements, and a great deal to do with his emotional capabilities.


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

jld said:


> I think I could fall in love with and build a great desire for any man of true maturity and intelligence who took the time to get to know me, really listen to me, and inspire me by his genuinely good character and sincere love for me. I think sustained desire has little to do with a man's physical measurements, and a great deal to do with his emotional capabilities.


I largely agree and for my wife and I this is, for the most part, what has sustained us for 19 years.

But many women's actions simply don't match such romantic rhetoric. Yes, a woman can say she desires a man for his emotional capabilities, and this may be true. But it's not the type of desire that men typically want, at least not completely. Most men want the physical desire too, it's what makes many of us feel good about ourselves. It's what makes us feel wanted, loved and desired. The physical desire is often what drives our emotional wellbeing.

The challenge is that when there's such a disconnect - a woman's ability to physically desire her husband is inhibited by his poor emotional wellbeing, which is in turn inhibited by her lack of physical desire - it becomes a self-sustaining downward spiral. And typically it's the man who is expected to pull the relationship out of such a state because it is the man that is typically the one who's needs are not being met.

For me, I've been trying to lead us out of the spiral for years but I can't do it on my own. I'm swimming against the tide and I'm close to simply letting go and seeing what happens.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> I think I could fall in love with and build a great desire for any man of true maturity and intelligence who took the time to get to know me, really listen to me, and inspire me by his genuinely good character and sincere love for me. I think sustained desire has little to do with a man's physical measurements, and a great deal to do with his emotional capabilities.



As HD also mentioned, it's hard to translate the type of desire you're talking about to intimacy desire for some / many people. If that was universally true I would be scoring easily with my interns who seem to use me and the other senior staffers as emotional trial balloons  

My wife trusts my emotional intelligence without question. We just went thru a very hairy situation at her work where she was prepared to go all out on the war path against some guy. After a week of what if and scenario play I convinced her to hold her fire. In time for Mondays layoffs 

Does that translate into emotional intimacy? Heck no. Physical desire is a whole different ball game.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Be careful HD. There are some here who's wife never responded, and just because theirs didn't, doesn't mean yours won't.

Make a list. What are your strengths? These you leverage. What are your weaknesses? Pick one to work on, we all have 'em.

And pick a date. On this date, if you haven't seen improvement, this is the date that you're going to accept that this isn't going to work. On this date, you deliver your wife two options: she can change, or she can leave. Two pieces of paper, one has on it clearly written your minimum requirements to stay in this. The other is how you're going to divvy up your stuff.

Until that date, you continue to work.

And, soon, you just sit her down and plainly say that you're not happy with your marriage and why, and that you're considering your options and continuing to improve yourself as best you can... and then leave it at that.

So, your wife can either decide to respond, or not.

But please don't take the "pearl harbour" approach.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Well, I have found myself eventually sexually attracted to men that I did not necessarily feel that way about immediately. As I got to know them, they just drew me in. 

Confidence and independence, genuine emotional independence, are very appealing to me. That makes me feel safe. And the safer I feel, the more open I am.

And men I have found myself instantly sexually attracted to have not always seemed as appealing, if at all, as I have gotten to know them.

And John, emotional intelligence is not emotional intimacy.

OP, I did not realize before coming to relationship forums that some men need to be strongly physically desired by their women. My husband just seems to want sex, period. He doesn't seem to need anything specific emotionally from me in that regard, or that I have ever noticed, anyway.

I think if you want your wife to desire you, you simply have to find out what her deepest emotional needs are and start meeting them. I'm just not sure there's any other way.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,
Is this a situation where your wife has a strong financial incentive to stay with you, even if she no longer loves you?

If that's the case, what your longer term plan? 




hubbydude said:


> I largely agree and for my wife and I this is, for the most part, what has sustained us for 19 years.
> 
> But many women's actions simply don't match such romantic rhetoric. Yes, a woman can say she desires a man for his emotional capabilities, and this may be true. But it's not the type of desire that men typically want, at least not completely. Most men want the physical desire too, it's what makes many of us feel good about ourselves.  It's what makes us feel wanted, loved and desired. The physical desire is often what drives our emotional wellbeing.
> 
> ...


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Marduk, while the Pearl Harbor approach is undesirable, I would be hard pressed to identify a single LD spouse that would be surprised by it. 

Do you really think that someone who watches TV, movies, listens to music, or sees how other people interact with their partners does not know?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

jld said:


> And John, emotional intelligence is not emotional intimacy.
> 
> 
> 
> I think if you want your wife to desire you, you simply have to find out what her deepest emotional needs are and start meeting them. I'm just not sure there's any other way.



Emotional intelligence is the prerequisite for the second paragraph above.


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## DesertRat1978 (Aug 27, 2013)

hubbydude said:


> And you're still together?


yes.

My point is that the books such as No More Mr. Nice Guy may work for you and they may not. they are about you and not her. Positive changes in you may mean absolutely nothing to her. You will only know if you try.


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

MEM11363 said:


> HD,
> Is this a situation where your wife has a strong financial incentive to stay with you, even if she no longer loves you?
> 
> If that's the case, what your longer term plan?


Yes she does. And there is of course a strong financial dis-incentive for me too if we were to split up. I realise this is not something that should be ignored but I don't want it being a factor in how I move forward.

I'm not giving up on us yet, I'm just trying to move myself to an emotional position where I'm confident that I could be happy and content without her. I'd rather be happy and content with her, but that's not just up to me.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

john117 said:


> Marduk, while the Pearl Harbor approach is undesirable, I would be hard pressed to identify a single LD spouse that would be surprised by it.
> 
> Do you really think that someone who watches TV, movies, listens to music, or sees how other people interact with their partners does not know?


I've seen it, so it happens.

I find it very disheartening how many marriages and families get torn asunder, and then the ex-spouses re-enter the dating scene...

Only to willingly do the hard work on themselves to be able to find another mate, when if they would have done this work to begin with, their marriage wouldn't have ended in the first place.


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

jld said:


> ...
> OP, I did not realize before coming to relationship forums that some men need to be strongly physically desired by their women. My husband just seems to want sex, period. He doesn't seem to need anything specific emotionally from me in that regard, or that I have ever noticed, anyway.
> ...


I can tell you that your husband doesn't want you to simply be there. Just showing up and going through the motions isn't enough. He wants to know that you want him. Perhaps you're doing this very well without intending to.....this is likely because you do actually want him.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

hubbydude said:


> I can tell you that your husband doesn't want you to simply be there. Just showing up and going through the motions isn't enough. He wants to know that you want him. Perhaps you're doing this very well without intending to.....this is likely because you do actually want him.


I think this might be it. He says he knows I want to be with him. He just feels it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,

This - the emotinal independence thing you describe below - is your FIRST step on the path to manning up.

The stuff you've been doing was all good stuff - but it was corrupted by your approval seeking mindset. 

For example - M2 tried very hard to condition me to accept 'divided communication'. 

Meaning - she was iphone/Ipadding - while I was engaged with her. 

That never happened. If we are having quality time - she's either engaged or not. If not, I go do something else. 

This isn't an anger thing. I don't 'need' her attention. If she'd rather play candy crush or text at any given time - that's fne by me. I'm simply not willing to fill in the 'gaps' while she does that. 

Plenty of times I've said: "Babe, play your game" or "text away" - followed by: "I'm perfectly capable of entertaining myself".

She doesn't have a quota for spending time together. That said - if we are on a date - we are BOTH fully present. 

And I want to emphasize - this isn't a control thing. M2 can spend as much time texting/gaming as she wants. I don't give her a hostile vibe over that stuff. Because it doesn't bother me. 

The subtext is very simple: Engage or don't engage - either is fine. 








hubbydude said:


> Yes she does. And there is of course a strong financial dis-incentive for me too if we were to split up. I realise this is not something that should be ignored but I don't want it being a factor in how I move forward.
> 
> I'm not giving up on us yet, I'm just trying to move myself to an emotional position where I'm confident that I could be happy and content without her. I'd rather be happy and content with her, but that's not just up to me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

This is a big theme with both me and M2. That desire to be together is very obvious...




jld said:


> I think this might be it. He says he knows I want to be with him. He just feels it.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

HD,

Just another data point for you. Sometimes when we're in bed M2 
will say: I'm going to:
- read my book for a while (ipad kindle reader) 
OR
- play my game for a while

This is code for: I want a block of quiet time. 

My one word response to that is: enjoy

This effortless management of space is incredibly helpful.







hubbydude said:


> I can tell you that your husband doesn't want you to simply be there. Just showing up and going through the motions isn't enough. He wants to know that you want him. Perhaps you're doing this very well without intending to.....this is likely because you do actually want him.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I would gladly give up my team's JDP award  to see my wife out on a date with anyone. 

From an appearance point of view she's good for a couple dates but when it comes time to light the candles... She'd be more interested in the number in the back of the suitor's car (328, 535, 750...) and number of square feet in his McMansion rather than anything more substantial.

Finding another mate in late 50's.... I think not.


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## vellocet (Oct 18, 2013)

jld said:


> I think if you want your wife to desire you, you simply have to find out what her deepest emotional needs are and start meeting them. I'm just not sure there's any other way.


Of course there isn't any other way. The wife doesn't have to do anything unless the husband does it first.

How about if she wants her deepest emotional needs met, then she shows him that she desires him?

See how that works? Not that I don't understand what you are saying(except when you linked it to infidelity in another thread)

Its a vicious cycle. Which came first, the chicken or the egg.

So if this is the way we are going to look at it and its he that has to take the first step then I'd say:

"I think if you want your wife to desire you, you simply have to find out what her deepest emotional needs are and start meeting them.......but if you do she BETTER reciprocate" Otherwise only the wife at that point will be getting any needs met.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

Or what if her desire has nothing to do with her deepest emotional needs?

What if what turns her on is the exact opposite of her deepest emotional needs?

There's fun in the finding out, I think.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

marduk said:


> Or what if her desire has nothing to do with her deepest emotional needs?
> 
> What if what turns her on is the exact opposite of her deepest emotional needs?
> 
> There's fun in the finding out, I think.



Pretty much so.

That's where Maslow got it wrong. One size does not fit all.

If your job is not secure or you can't afford your medicines deep emotional needs are the last of your concerns.

Or, if you're past the point of having emotional needs to begin with.


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## Dogbert (Jan 10, 2015)

Here's the sacred man writings of his holiness marduk:



marduk said:


> _I happened to be thinking today about the past year of my marriage. Everyone on these forums were so instrumental in my being in the great place I am today I thought I would post a note about where I was, where I am, and what I’ve learned.
> 
> A year ago my marriage was a mess. After 3 kids my stay at home wife spontaneously decided to start going out with her girlfriends again, including a “girls trip” to Vegas. She started a crazy fitness routine, including marathon running and triathalons. She started leaving me at home with the kids 2-3 evenings a week. A rough summer. I was insecure, controlling, alone, and afraid.
> 
> ...


Feel the testosterone cursing through your veins my fellow brothers, as it washes away all traces of wussiness from our bodies.

Can I have an Amen brother Dogbert?

Hallelujah!


:allhail:


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

Manning up works great if your wife impresses easily or if you're her primary "male role model". If your wife is in a high strung career of her own earning serious money the steps above need a serious reevaluation.

Training for a marathon is one thing, working 60-80 hours a week is quite another. Men with SAHM wives have different dynamics in the marriage than men with non SAHM wives...

In retrospect I would have preferred my wife to not work...


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

hubbydude said:


> So, I've been on the No More Mr. Nice Guy / Married Man Sex Life Primer / Alpha-Beta journey for a few months and have made a number of changes and improvements that I'm happy with, while recognizing that I still have more to do.
> 
> My question is: If my wife fails to respond to my changes in any lasting way, how will I know if I'm doing it wrong or if she's simply not into me?


If you're doing it to GET something from her, you ARE doing it wrong and always will.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

hubbydude said:


> Until I read MMSLP and NMMNG and started using these forums, I would have said that I had tried everything. I've certainly tried all the playfulness you refer to.


But...but...HOW did you do it? Could she look you in the eyes while you tried to be frisky and sense that you were so desperate for sex that you were 'trying' to be something that you aren't, that you were SCARED of her saying no? Or were you confident in your ability to get a woman but wanted just her?

There's a BIG difference, and the first guy is a HUGE turnoff.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

> a woman's ability to physically desire her husband is inhibited by *his poor emotional wellbeing*, which is in turn *inhibited by her lack of physical desire* - it becomes a self-sustaining downward spiral.


It shouldn't. YOU should be confident enough to not let her actions define you. More Nice Guy stuff. What are you doing to fix THAT? Therapy? Hanging out with other men? Working out?


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

HubbyDude,

Your reason for early lack of success is your attachment to outcome. The principle of NMMNG is that we focus on improving ourselves and then let the chips fall where they may. Your early posts describe activities, such as building a fence to look more manly, followed by frustration that your efforts did not automatically translate into more intimacy.

Then you did date nights and then got frustrated when she showed more love for her phone than she did for you.

You're letting her responses determine your mood - at least at first. Later posts you seem to be getting further along the detachment road. 

Try this for a month: What would you do if you were a widower; if she weren't around anymore? (Aside from dating other women, of course.) Would you pick different activities to do with the kids than you do now? Would you go out more often with your friends. Would you start a new hobby?

Answer that question for yourself and you have your roadmap for implementing the NMMNG principles. This is no guarantee that it will save your marriage. Rather, it only accelerates the process of moving your relationship to its most viable long-term status. Indeed, your growing detachment may accelerate the process of bringing the relationship to its inevitable end. In this case, you will have already started building your life in other areas.

Alternatively, your wife may realize that she has to fight for your attention, that you're not whipped, that you have value and need to be treated as such. 

You have to get comfortable with the idea that you will be fine whatever course the relationship takes. It's terrible living in relationship limbo. That's where you are right now. Improve yourself, detach from your dependency on her as much as possible and you will have your answer soon enough. 

Set a timeline in your head. Six months. Maybe a year. Act with authenticity throughout and let her respond to the "new you" over time. Don't issue demands for her to change. You exhibit consistent change on your side, focus on being the man you want to be and let her actions be your guide. At the end of six months, you make a calculated analysis on whether her actions / attitude leave her eligible to be your wife. You'll know whether it's a thumbs up or thumbs down. At that point, you take your next step accordingly.


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## Chaparral (Jul 17, 2011)

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/192194-im-tired-trying.html

Have you read this thread?


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## hubbydude (May 15, 2014)

MarriedTex said:


> HubbyDude,
> 
> Your reason for early lack of success is your attachment to outcome. The principle of NMMNG is that we focus on improving ourselves and then let the chips fall where they may. Your early posts describe activities, such as building a fence to look more manly, followed by frustration that your efforts did not automatically translate into more intimacy.
> 
> ...


Great advice! And this is exactly what I'm trying to do now. Practically, it's not difficult. Doing all of the things I need to do is challenging but very do-able. Dropping the emotional connection to my wife however, this is the difficult part.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Read the books. It will make it less difficult.


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## MarriedTex (Sep 24, 2010)

hubbydude said:


> Great advice! And this is exactly what I'm trying to do now. Practically, it's not difficult. Doing all of the things I need to do is challenging but very do-able. Dropping the emotional connection to my wife however, this is the difficult part.


You don't drop the emotion. You can - and should - still love your wife. What you must control is HOW YOU RESPOND TO HER ACTIONS. 

You gotta knock her off that pedastal. Does a lion in a jungle worry about what the lioness is wanting? No, he goes out, does his lion job, kills what he needs for the family and comes back to the den as the king that he is. He doesnt' ask for permission to go out hunting. He doesn't care what the lioness does or thinks. He's the king.

Act like the king. Be the guy who's setting the course and not waiting for his wife's permission to live the life that he wants to live. 

This does not mean that you can be a jerk and be totally devoid of emotion. Part of being a king means that you ensure that everybody around you is taken care of. The only difference now is that you do this on your terms, executing on this vision in the way that suits you. You don't look for approval. You provide, you lead, you set the tone.

In a way, you're above all that pesky little cr*p that bothers you now. It's much easier to live life by setting your own agenda rather than trying to guess at the actions you should take to satisfy somebody else's agenda. 

In short, she has your balls in her purse. Time to snatch that bag back and claim what is rightfully yours: Your dignity, your priorities, your gameplan. It's fine to want to love, protect and care for everyone in your family. But you can't do that by blindly following your wife's dictates on how you should be living your life. 

It's time for you to start acting like the lion.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

hubbydude said:


> Great advice! And this is exactly what I'm trying to do now. Practically, it's not difficult. Doing all of the things I need to do is challenging but very do-able. Dropping the emotional connection to my wife however, this is the difficult part.


It's not necessarily about not having an emotional connection.

It's about having enough emotional self-control as to not get swept up in _her_ emotions.

Something I work on continuously, and fail often.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

hubbydude said:


> Our last "date" night was a couple of weeks ago. As ever, I put effort into it....afterall, I want to date my wife. I took her out for lunch in the afternoon, making sure I was presentable, confident, cheery, fun. I went to the gym early so that we would have the whole evening together. As she took the kids to bed I popped out and picked up a bottle of her favourite wine. As soon as the kids are down I switch off the TV, put on some music and give her my undivided attention.


That does not sound like much of a date night. More of the same old thing. I think you need to do things that change up the pattern. Actually get her out of the house. Do something like you did when you first started dating, whether it is seeing a band at a bar or playing mini-golf or whatever. 



> She spent half the time fiddling on her phone and we ended up arguing.


As MEM noted, if she wants to play with her phone, calmly end the date right then and there.



> It was after this that we had our conversation about how it seems that she simply isn't into me and that I feel like I'm banging my head against a wall trying to "date" her. If we had just been on a first or second date I would be thinking that there's little point investing any more time and effort into this one.


Talk less. Conversations like these turn off a lot of women. Your wife may be one. Short discussions followed by action are most effective.



> I've simply switched off since then. I wouldn't say I'm full-on 180 but I'm no longer initiating any kind of affectionate interactions. She's picked up a little, but that's mainly because she thinks I'm upset with her and I don't expect it to last.
> 
> On a positive note, I'm genuinely not upset with her. I'm at a point where I'm pretty much coming to terms with how things are and choosing not to invest any more energy into something that's not working. I'm hoping (but not expecting) that she'll pick up where I've left off and that things improve, but if they don't then so be it.
> 
> From all the advice I'm reading here, I'm thinking that I need to continue coming to terms with the condition of our relationship and focus my efforts on me, and not "us". We'll see what happens.


All you can control is yourself. So keep that up.


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## Marduk (Jul 16, 2010)

This video gave me pause.

Esther Perel: The secret to desire in a long-term relationship | Talk Video | TED.com


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