# Wife's Emotional Affair



## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

I know this story has been told here a million times already. I'm just really struggling right now and would like to know somebody's listening.

My wife and I have been married 18 years. We've raised two great boys 14 and 16. My wife thinks she's going through a midlife crisis (she's mid-40's) and has been a bit lost since the boys got old enough they no longer "need" her. She started working full time a few years ago and enjoys it. But recently she's been struggling.

Some history: About 6 years ago wife and I had gotten very distant, not sleeping in the same room, etc. I have some pretty severe anxiety issues and can close off emotionally. She'd had something of an emotional affair with an old highschool friend at this time and I discovered it and did some serious soul searching. Wife wasn't "unhappy" at the time, and we worked on the marriage and I worked on opening up emotionally and things really improved for a while. But a couple years ago we started drifting back into old habits. I started getting closed off emotionally, drinking too much, and really resentful of her lack of participation around home. She enjoyed going out with her friends and would beg me to come along but I just kept ignoring her sometimes subtle, sometimes overt pleas to reconnect.

Just last Friday I got a message from a woman who said my wife was having an emotional if not physical affair with her husband. Confronting my wife she admitted that she and this guy started FB messaging since January and met twice at a public place. She said it was very intense, and that she basically fell in love with the guy. She said she's been very unhappy for the past year especially and has seriously considered leaving me. She says she can't imagine us growing old together anymore, and she said "every day" she thinks about the fact that our marriage probably wouldn't survive the boys leaving home.

She expresses that she's very sorry about the affair, sorry she's hurt me. She'll do "whatever you want" (her words) including me kicking her out or leaving her. I told her I want to work on us.  And I do. I had to sleep on it and realized what I really want is to get into therapy and address my anxiety disorders, drinking, etc. I feel like my marriage might be too far gone, and looking beyond her leaving me I feel like I will be a very unhappy person all my life if I don't get the help I need. I feel like working on me is my only chance of being able to emotionally connect with anybody (including her). And if that helps save my marriage then so be it.

Thanks for listening. Any experiences/advice are welcome of course.

--steve


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Sorry dude. Assume you don't even know the half of it unfortunately.


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## thedope (Jan 3, 2017)

Sounds like more happened than she admitted. Often you will get the old trickle truth. Good idea working on yourself. Abusing alcohol will make anyone miserable, you should do invidual counseling ASAP.


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## thedope (Jan 3, 2017)

I'd put money on it they had sex.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

Yeah, I know the story and went through this on other forums when I was going through the first episode.

My wife's very shy sexually, her story about only meeting twice briefly in public checks out with the other guy's story (according to his wife). She admits she wouldn't blame me if I don't believe her because how am I supposed to trust her. But I trust her in this. I'm not concerned if they had sex anyway, I'm more concerned that she's feeling love for somebody else and while she says she still loves me I don't know what to trust.

What I don't understand is how somebody can text back and forth and achieve such emotional connection? Like what do you say to each other that makes things so intimate? What need is he filling that I wasn't, or might not be able to? Those are the kinds of things going through my mind.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

I'm also not sure if she can give it up. She got something out of this. I am not going to watch her like a hawk. So time will tell I've got to work on me right now while struggling with the pain of knowing our days together might be numbered.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

OP,

So many BS's make the mistake of believing their WW spouse when they say it is only an EA. I did as well. But you have two things that point to this being a PA.

- She's says she in love with the OM

- They've had the chance to hook up.

Motive and opportunity.

You need to be sure you know what you're trying to forgive. You should assume it's a PA until you get solid evidence. If she won't admit it, you need to keep on digging. You will get all the help you will need to discreetly monitor her on this board.


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Tundra7346 said:


> What need is he filling that I wasn't, or might not be able to? Those are the kinds of things going through my mind.


Here are a few possibilities for needs he might be filling that you aren't or might not be capable of filling.



Tundra7346 said:


> But a couple years ago we started drifting back into old habits. I started getting closed off emotionally, drinking too much, and really resentful of her lack of participation around home. She enjoyed going out with her friends and would beg me to come along but I just kept ignoring her sometimes subtle, sometimes overt pleas to reconnect.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

badmemory said:


> OP,
> 
> So many BS's make the mistake of believing their WW spouse when they say it is only an EA. I did as well. But you have two things that point to this being a PA.
> 
> ...


What's the difference between forgiving a PA vs an EA? Is one "less damaging" than the other? If I had to say it's the EA that's worse. If the reason she's gotten to love him is due to the PA, what's the difference? It's the intimacy and her feelings for him that are most damaging.


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Tundra7346 said:


> She expresses that she's very sorry about the affair, sorry she's hurt me. She'll do "whatever you want" (her words) including me kicking her out or leaving her. I told her I want to work on us. And I do. I had to sleep on it and realized what I really want is to get into therapy and address my anxiety disorders, drinking, etc. I feel like my marriage might be too far gone, and looking beyond her leaving me I feel like I will be a very unhappy person all my life if I don't get the help I need. I feel like working on me is my only chance of being able to emotionally connect with anybody (including her). And if that helps save my marriage then so be it.
> 
> Thanks for listening. Any experiences/advice are welcome of course.
> 
> --steve


I'd take her up on her offer to do whatever you want. Since you want to save the marriage, I'd usually recommend having her implement the steps in Surviving an Affair as a condition to staying married to you. The list includes telling you the extent of the affair, taking a polygraph to confirm, exposing to family and close friends on both sides, and implementing extraordinary precautions to keep this from ever happening again. This happened because your wife has poor boundaries around men. She will need to end all contact with the OM, change her numbers, and provide you with full transparency from now on. She will need to agree to not have male friends unless they are friends of the marriage and socialize with the two of you together as a couple.

That said, you also need the book Lovebusters to understand that you need to work on being a better/more attractive husband. The author of both books is a licensed clinical psych who has been counseling couples for decades and states that until any addiction is eliminated, a couple cannot improve their marriage. Your drinking to the point of upsetting your wife means you have been putting alcohol above her and the marriage. This needs to stop if you are going to prove to her that you can have a happy marriage together.

I'd show her, starting today, that you are serious about making her your number 1 priority by no longer drinking and no longer living independently. You two also need to commit to spending 15 hours a week dating each other, as discussed in His Needs, Her Needs, another book you need to download today. Once you two begin spending time together meeting eachother's emotional needs, your wife will stop missing the OM and you two will no longer be able to live like roommates. You'll be in love again.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Tundra7346 said:


> What I don't understand is how somebody can text back and forth and achieve such emotional connection? * Like what do you say to each other that makes things so intimate? What need is he filling that I wasn't, or might not be able to?*


He told her these things:

You are attractive. A lot of men must bother you a lot.
You are hot. I love how you look in jeans.
You are the perfect women. Your's husband is so lucky to have you.

I like your smile.
I like your eyes.
I like the way you talk.

You are smart.
You make me feel so good when we are together.

I could get lost in your eyes.
I could see us living together forever.

I am not after you for sex. I just enjoy being with you. I know you feel the same.

I know we are both married, but we deserve to be happy.

No one will ever know if we are very careful very discrete.

When we hold each other tight all our problems seem so small.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Tundra7346 said:


> What's the difference between forgiving a PA vs an EA? Is one "less damaging" than the other? If I had to say it's the EA that's worse. If the reason she's gotten to love him is due to the PA, what's the difference? It's the intimacy and her feelings for him that are most damaging.


Well, for many men - maybe most (including myself), there's a hell of a lot of difference. For one thing, if she's in love with him but has intentionally refrained from having sex, at least she's respected her wedding vows enough to not let it get to that point. 

And, if you ever have to deal with the mind movies of your wife having sex with a POSOM, you'll further understand it.

And, knowing that if she did have sex with him, she's continuing to deceive you by lying about it. That's hard to swallow as well.

That said, if an EA is just as bad as a PA to you; I respect that. I guess that makes your decision easier and you can stop the snooping.


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

She is still lying to you.

have her get tested for stds and you do the same.

File for D. You are wasting your time on her. She is already gone.

Fix yourself like you want to, but have her leave, if she said she would leave.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Let her go. 

(From another thread. I did not write this)


> *Just Let Them Go*
> 
> The end result?
> 
> ...


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## MattMatt (May 19, 2012)

@Tundra7346 Several things need to be fixed, here. Not necessarily in this order:-

You, your wife, your marriage.

Things that will help are marriage counselling -once the affair is over- individual counselling, a polygraph test and an initial appointment with a divorce lawyer.


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## Finwe (Nov 5, 2015)

Is there a TT conversion chart? It would be so handy.


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## Tatsuhiko (Jun 21, 2016)

There are some odd themes that appear in stories of infidelity. You should be prepared:

1) Sometimes when a wandering spouse says they've contemplated divorce, they're actually _nowhere near_ facing the reality of divorce when the papers are served. Sometimes filing for divorce is a good way to wake up the wandering spouse and readjust their priorities.
2) The "sexually shy" wandering spouse has often done things with their affair partner that would make a sailor blush--things they refused to do with their own spouse. The betrayed spouse often finds this incredibly hurtful and unrecoverable.
3) When the wandering spouse says "I've stopped the affair", the affair usually continues, but is better hidden. 
4) Begging your wandering spouse to stay, or crying in front of them usually has the opposite of the intended effect. The best results are often achieved by showing your wandering spouse that you'll be just fine without them. However, in your case, it sounds like you've already put distance between the two of you over the past years. So I'm not sure what your best course of action is in this respect.


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## Gabriel (May 10, 2011)

Honestly, I'm not sure what you need from this forum. You know what happened (at least partially), you know why, and you know what to do for yourself. 

That's about all you need.

If you want the marriage, ask her if she does. Ask her if you improved X, Y, Z, would she be interested in moving forward with you. If she says yes, then do those things to help your marriage. If she says anything other than that, just do it for yourself, like you mentioned. Either way, you have your marching orders, and you seem to know what they are.

Good luck.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

I know this comment is way out in left field. That's where I reside, but whatever you do, don't beg or coerce her to stay. As a matter of fact you'd probably be ahead of the game by filing for divorce now.


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## thedope (Jan 3, 2017)

Tundra7346 said:


> badmemory said:
> 
> 
> > OP,
> ...


What if she lied about not having sex with him. Would that bother you? I think it would. It seems like OM and WW were able to get their story straight.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You won't be able to make an informed decision to attempt reconciliation until you have the whole truth. You don't have it yet. Sometimes it takes filing for divorce to knock the wayward off the fence and to pry the truth out.


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## BobSimmons (Mar 2, 2013)

Tundra7346 said:


> What's the difference between forgiving a PA vs an EA? Is one "less damaging" than the other? If I had to say it's the EA that's worse. If the reason she's gotten to love him is due to the PA, what's the difference? It's the intimacy and her feelings for him that are most damaging.


Same difference. You'll often hear the cliche that women attach more on an emotional level than physical. For me each are doorways to the other..all that matters is your wife has a boyfriend.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

it sounds like your drinking seriously harmed the marriage. As such, it is a big problem. Maybe serious enough to join AA. At the least, go thru the house and throw out anything alcoholic, and never again buy any. Show her, by your actions, that you are serious about fixing yourself.

Maybe try to reconnect with her in some way. Do you both like exercise? Join a gym and work out together. Go on hikes in the woods, climb some mountains, do some kayaking together. If she says "i am going out with my friends, do you want to come?" guess what your answer should be???

She had an EA, and maybe a PA. If you can get over that (many can not), then i would say you both were at the scene of the crime. But doing the above you will be doing your penance. But she has to do some heavy lifting too: All the standard no contact, give you passwords to everything, and on and on. 

IF i chose to reconcile with her, i personally would not want to know all the details of the affair, but would want her to commit to being squeaky clean going forward. 

in any event in your unique case, i do not see a need to rush to do anthing, including serving her with divorce papers, A little time will show you where it is all headding to.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

* @Tundra7346 ~ if feelings between your W and the OM, in her own words, "got intense," then you can pretty much take it to the bank that they exchanged bodily fluids somewhere, and not exactly at a local blood bank!

You need to do some ardent soul-searching and determine if this is both forgivable and repairable! If not, you need to sever the cords with her, implement "the 180," and begin looking out for your own welfare and that of your innocent sons!

In any event, at least get yourself checked out by an MD for the presence of any latent STD's!*


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Tundra7346 said:


> What's the difference between forgiving a PA vs an EA? Is one "less damaging" than the other? If I had to say it's the EA that's worse. If the reason she's gotten to love him is due to the PA, what's the difference? It's the intimacy and her feelings for him that are most damaging.


It's her not being honest with you that is more of a problem. How can you be married to someone who lies to your face repeatedly. Besides that sex add another level of intimacy to the equation, normally getting to the point where you have sex means you pursued this for a long time.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

If you are not doing things to make your own life better for yourself, you will struggle to keep changes for you as a couple... and even those changes will change before you are ready to find the opportunity for peace and love back in the marriage you want.

As you work to see your life different, don't discount every single drop of change... that is how a bucket is filled and before long you'll be able to see your reflection, but the interesting thing in that as well is if your wife notices the drops that are added, she'll see that reflection too as she looks in.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

Gabriel said:


> Honestly, I'm not sure what you need from this forum. You know what happened (at least partially), you know why, and you know what to do for yourself.
> 
> That's about all you need.
> 
> ...


What I need is to know somebody's listening. And to know I'm not alone.

What I value are comments just like yours. Because it provides some reassurance I'm on the right track or at least a track.

Other comments, opinions, experience and advice are welcome considerations. 

--steve


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Tundra7346 said:


> She expresses that she's very sorry about the affair, sorry she's hurt me. She'll do "whatever you want" (her words) including me kicking her out or leaving her.


Go to this google search and print out all the articles. Hand them to her and tell her you want her to read them all by Friday. You and she will sit down and talk about it Friday. (you need to read them, too)

https://www.google.com/search?q=pea...rome..69i57.5367j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Tundra7346 said:


> I'm also not sure if she can give it up. She got something out of this. I am not going to watch her like a hawk. So time will tell I've got to work on me right now while struggling with the pain of knowing our days together might be numbered.


By now, you should have all the passwords to every piece of electronics and every app she has. You should have installed GPS on her phone and in her car. She should have written a No Contact letter to this man that YOU approve and email to him. She should be telling you EVERYwhere she goes and when so you can verify. And you should be taking her to her parents to sit down in front of them and tell them what she has done and ask for their forgiveness and support of you.

That's a good first step.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

At the same time, please understand that women are subconsciously attracted to strong men. Goes back to caveman days. Your anxiety, your shutting off, have contributed to her no longer seeing you as strong, possibly even worthy. 

I assume you are seeing a therapist to overcome your anxiety? You'd better be! You need to be taking active steps to make this marriage fulfilling for BOTH of you, at least the part you can control.

At the same time, read this book and see if it applies: No More Mr Nice Guy.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

thedope said:


> What if she lied about not having sex with him. Would that bother you? I think it would. It seems like OM and WW were able to get their story straight.


Of course it would. Not the sex, but the lack of willingness to come clean about it now. That lack of truthfulness would show me just how damaged our marriage is already. Yes, I guess reflecting on that damage would make me less willing (more discouraged) to try to salvage it.

What concerns me more than her involvement with him (sexual or not) is the fact that she's harbored thoughts of leaving for quite some time, without confronting me with these feelings. Both greatly damage my trust in her. How am I supposed to trust she won't repeat this? But more importantly, how am I supposed to trust her commitment?

I know nothing I can do than work on me, and find out if she's willing to work on her.

--steve


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## KrisAmiss (May 1, 2017)

Tundra7346 said:


> What I don't understand is how somebody can text back and forth and achieve such emotional connection? Like what do you say to each other that makes things so intimate? What need is he filling that I wasn't, or might not be able to? Those are the kinds of things going through my mind.


I had an EA for awhile. Everything I said was the funniest, coolest, most intelligent thing ever. He was an old highschool acquaintance so we had a base of mutual people which gave us plenty to talk about. I was the standout in every picture, the most beloved mom, obviously everyone loved me. I was his teenage dream that he could never have hoped for in highschool. My husband didn't know what he had. It was like crack cocaine, this world where I was so admired, loved and doted upon.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

if they are having sex, she is getting a chemical high from him that will be tougher for her to ever overcome. You really need to either know she hasn't been with him or never have sex with her again, until she has been STD tested.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

KrisAmiss said:


> I had an EA for awhile. Everything I said was the funniest, coolest, most intelligent thing ever. He was an old highschool acquaintance so we had a base of mutual people which gave us plenty to talk about. I was the standout in every picture, the most beloved mom, obviously everyone loved me. I was his teenage dream that he could never have hoped for in highschool. My husband didn't know what he had. It was like crack cocaine, this world where I was so admired, loved and doted upon.


Thanks for sharing this experience. Some similarities--grade school acquaintance, base of mutual people.

Talking to my wife last night I told her I want to know what he said to her that was so valuable. But at the same time I do not, because I do not want to be unable to say things to her without it coming off as being inauthentic, or genuinely manipulative. TBH, I'm probably trying to tease out of her what her needs are so I can be sure to meet them. But I feel like it's better to hold out and let her express her needs directly.

I know every situation is different. Could be this wasn't what she got out of him. From what she volunteered they spent a lot of time talking about his troubled marriage (of course, that's how it started in the first place). She admitted that in the very beginning she felt good about herself because she was "helping" somebody. Then said that it quickly degenerated and she knew almost immediately it was going wrong, yet leaned into it. I can certainly imagine the crack cocaine of validation he may have poured on her.

Today I feel like I'm at my best when I'm just brutally honest. Either in the negative about the pain, hurt, disappointment, and in the positive about my love for her and what I value and will cherish about her even if our days are numbered. I realize validating her now runs the risk of making me look weak and desperate, and as others have said, having the opposite effect of repairing things. Yet I feel like if the marriage is going to die, I'm going to "die standing up." I can't believe that honesty is wrong.

--steve


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## She'sStillGotIt (Jul 30, 2016)

Tundra7346 said:


> My wife's very shy sexually, her story about only meeting twice briefly in public checks out with the other guy's story (according to his wife).


Come on. Off COURSE they have the same story. Did you actually think that meant they MUST be telling the truth???? It'd be a cold day in hell when a cheater actually admits they've had sex with their affair partner on D-Day. You *always* get the same fairy tale from cheaters on D-Day - that they 'didn't have sex.' And you can ALSO be sure these two compared lies and agreed on a story they're both going to stick to.

You know what else? Since his wife had already confronted him before she told you, that just gave lover boy all the time in the world to warn your wife that he'd been caught and it* also *gave them time to go over their story. Stop being naive.

Secondly, you're missing the POINT as to whether if was sexual or not. And trust me, over time, it WILL matter to you if it was sexual. That aside, the point here is that if it was sexual, that means she's still *LYING *to you. Why would you work so hard to reconcile with someone whose still *LYING *to you?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Tundra7346 said:


> TBH, I'm probably trying to tease out of her what her needs are so I can be sure to meet them. But I feel like it's better to hold out and let her express her needs directly.


Ok, ONCE this man is out of the picture (won't work now because she will have rewritten your marital history so as to make you the bad guy), you two need to read the book His Needs Her Needs by Harley. It has questionnaires to fill out. Read it and then fill the questionnaires out. It will tell you everything you need to know about what you're missing and need to do.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

naiveonedave said:


> if they are having sex, she is getting a chemical high from him that will be tougher for her to ever overcome.


Interesting thought, thanks. I can see how that could be a factor in an EA vs a PA.

Full disclosure, she and I have been sexual all along. About a year or two ago we'd reached a point in our sex life where we'd gotten really good at it. Very passionate, very enjoyable that we knew each other's bodies and sexual needs so well. I think she'd become less "giving" -- blowjobs had been almost completely gone for quite a while.

Of course, that great sex has slowly waned since she started with him (at least in quality), but didn't stop.

My desire for her had been on the decline for a while, I feel like (for me) it was directly proportional to the decline in our closeness. Of course, this all makes me feel sad.

--steve


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

turnera said:


> Ok, ONCE this man is out of the picture (won't work now because she will have rewritten your marital history so as to make you the bad guy), you two need to read the book His Needs Her Needs by Harley. It has questionnaires to fill out. Read it and then fill the questionnaires out. It will tell you everything you need to know about what you're missing and need to do.


As I may have mentioned in the OP, we had a blow-up similar (but much less involved) like this about 6 years ago. Afterwards I pushed hard to "fix it" and she pushed back, and was very defensive. HNHN was in the picture and if I remember correctly she didn't want to read it. Or maybe she did but disagreed on certain points--my memory's fuzzy.

In retrospect, we pretty much just white-knuckled our recovery and while I think she expressed her needs better and I met them for a time, we really needed a much more systematic and sustainable approach. Obviously I didn't work on or keep up those things that I needed for me--over time I think she probably became less direct or confrontational about what she needed from me. There are manuals for this stuff, sadly. Thanks.

--steve


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Tundra7346 said:


> Interesting thought, thanks. I can see how that could be a factor in an EA vs a PA.


It is, and for some women, the attention, affection (expressions of care and concern), and intimate conversation can be more of an emotional need than sex.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

She'sStillGotIt said:


> That aside, the point here is that if it was sexual, that means she's still *LYING *to you. Why would you work so hard to reconcile with someone whose still *LYING *to you?


Yes, good point. And I agreed with this in an earlier part of this thread. It would clearly change my perspective on what she's willing to do to reconcile. 

Not to argue your points--just to get some stuff off my chest.

The night she told me the story, she said she seeks connections with people (all her friends), and that this one went into a whole new level of connectedness (obviously the were emotionally very intimate). She said was adamant it didn't get sexual. She said she's never had sex with anybody but me, and she doesn't really know how something progresses to sexual. Reading between the lines I think we all know it very well could have gotten there eventually, she just didn't know how that "works." Again, not to argue, or justify, just to say what was said.

Thanks for listening.

--steve


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

From the OMs perspective: would you risk being seen hanging out with a woman other than your W if you weren't getting something in return? What's worth getting caught?

As my W says (and she would know): there's only 1 reason to meet up with OM in person. If you want to talk, you can do that on the phone.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

Jessica38 said:


> It is, and for some women, the attention, affection (expressions of care and concern), and intimate conversation can be more of an emotional need than sex.


I'm a baseball fan and one thing I know is that while ANYTHING can happen, there's percentages of probability in every play.

What I know about where we were in our relationship, and what needs she's not had met from me, it makes perfect sense this at least started as being all about her emotional needs. I'd been troubled by our lack of connectedness for a long time, and it only took me a few minutes after finding out that something was going on to recover from the initial shock and realize that it made perfect sense--of course she's gone outside our marriage to get her emotional needs met.

Playing baseball manager: getting emotional needs met highest probability play. Could it have turned sexual eventually, lesser, but still probable. Was it already sexual, certainly possible, just less likely than the other scenarios.

--steve


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## Jessica38 (Feb 28, 2017)

Tundra7346 said:


> I'm a baseball fan and one thing I know is that while ANYTHING can happen, there's percentages of probability in every play.
> 
> What I know about where we were in our relationship, and what needs she's not had met from me, it makes perfect sense this at least started as being all about her emotional needs. I'd been troubled by our lack of connectedness for a long time, and it only took me a few minutes after finding out that something was going on to recover from the initial shock and realize that it made perfect sense--of course she's gone outside our marriage to get her emotional needs met.
> 
> ...


Steve, affairs are always about getting needs met outside of the marriage, but if your wife had strong boundaries with men, she wouldn't be having an affair, regardless of whether you were doing a good job meeting her needs at the time. When a person has poor boundaries around the OS, it makes the conditions for an Affair possible. Plent of people work on their marriages without having an affair. There may be reasons for an Affair, but there are no excuses.

If your wife had come here stating that she is unhappy in her marriage, her husband doesn't spend time with her or go to bed with her at night, she's lonely, he drinks too much, etc., I would have told her to tell you what she needs from you. If you did not listen and adapt to create a better marriage with her, I would have advised her to separate from you until you were able to meet her conditions for a mutually satisfying marriage. At that point, you likely would have paid attention, like you are now.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> If you are not doing things to make your own life better for yourself, you will struggle to keep changes for you as a couple... and even those changes will change before you are ready to find the opportunity for peace and love back in the marriage you want.
> 
> As you work to see your life different, don't discount every single drop of change... that is how a bucket is filled and before long you'll be able to see your reflection, but the interesting thing in that as well is if your wife notices the drops that are added, she'll see that reflection too as she looks in.


This is gold, thank you. Reassuring first on a personal level--my change. 

--steve


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

turnera said:


> I assume you are seeing a therapist to overcome your anxiety? You'd better be! You need to be taking active steps to make this marriage fulfilling for BOTH of you, at least the part you can control.


Yup already set up appointments. I have struggled with anxiety all my life. Last time something like this happened I had to deal with massive insecurities. While I feel like I worked through many of those insecurities I never addressed manageable, healthy ways to address my anxiety. It didn't take me long this time to realize that my anxiety will be a problem between me and my next partner if it comes to that, and will be a miserable problem the rest of my life unless I focus on that.

If it helps are relationship heal, then bonus. If it doesn't I'm a better person and can move on with my life.



> At the same time, read this book and see if it applies: No More Mr Nice Guy.


Yes, I did the first time. It definitely applied. I never mentioned--the first time this happened I was addicted to porn. We were sexually very dysfunctional. NMMNG really healed me sexually, and gave me a core of self-validation that putting myself first is never wrong. What I'm realizing is the anxiety disorders -- while I feel are different than low self-esteem or deep insecurity -- have still been an issue I need to manage--for me.

--steve


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## KrisAmiss (May 1, 2017)

Tundra7346 said:


> From what she volunteered they spent a lot of time talking about his troubled marriage (of course, that's how it started in the first place). She admitted that in the very beginning she felt good about herself because she was "helping" somebody. Then said that it quickly degenerated and she knew almost immediately it was going wrong, yet leaned into it. I can certainly imagine the crack cocaine of validation he may have poured on her.
> 
> Today I feel like I'm at my best when I'm just brutally honest. Either in the negative about the pain, hurt, disappointment, and in the positive about my love for her and what I value and will cherish about her even if our days are numbered. I realize validating her now runs the risk of making me look weak and desperate, and as others have said, having the opposite effect of repairing things. Yet I feel like if the marriage is going to die, I'm going to "die standing up." I can't believe that honesty is wrong.
> 
> --steve


Steve (and coincidentally my EA was Steve, ha),

This is very much like my EA. We talked about our troubled marriages. He's a fixer. I think we both wanted to help the other. We didn't mean to do it, in a way. It was our first "affair" (certainly mine and if I can believe him, his.) 

I do believe he was geniune. We met up twice and didn't so much as kiss. We talked about sex, but didn't come close. Later in life I heard he did with someone else. I also noticed alot of affection with other women on FB. Now I never plan to talk to him again out of respect for my husband. I hope if she hasn't cut off contact with him, that you've stepped in and told him to quit. That took away my emotional vent and I started talking to my husband again. She may not like it, but it will help.

It was extremely emotional pouring out my heart over disappointments in my marriage. I hadn't shared any of that with family or friends. He totally got it cuz he was there too. A recipe for disaster.

Working on yourself is The Best Plan Ever. It's the only plan. Start immediately.

I LOVE your honesty. I say, show your understanding. Give her some space to think about things. She may not respond immediately and that's ok. Don't rush things and don't let her rush things. It just might work out.


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## Satya (Jun 22, 2012)

My ex H had severe anxiety. I tried hard to understand it, read umpty books on it, supported him, but the one thing I could not do was get him to go to therapy or do anything to improve the anxiety. It was completely his responsibility and it felt like I was getting a less than able human being as a partner... Someone who could not fathom that improving himself would improve our relationship as well. It didn't have to happen overnight, but consistent, positive steps would have helped. 

I'm not excusing what your wife did, not at all, but I can understand why things happened the way they did.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

KrisAmiss said:


> It was like crack cocaine, this world where I was so admired, loved and doted upon.


It is, literally, a drug rush to the brain when after many years of Meh sex, suddenly a member of the opposite sex is really into you! It can be a very powerful persuader. I can see why a lot of people fall into that trap and cheat. But..it IS a trap


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

Too many "yups" to quote. Thanks for sharing as it's tremendous relief to know I'm not alone in these experiences--regardless the pain and the outcome.



KrisAmiss said:


> I hope if she hasn't cut off contact with him, that you've stepped in and told him to quit. That took away my emotional vent and I started talking to my husband again. She may not like it, but it will help.


I messaged him with quite a bit of colorful language that he needs to stay the f away, etc., etc., Not positive he got it (FB Messenger), but it was therapeutic for me at the very least.

She has not fought in the least talking to me about this and about us. The last two nights (first two nights together since discovery) we've covered a lot of ground. No replacement for the long term process, but I'm encouraged by her immediate willingness to get to it.

I asked her yesterday when the last time she talked (texted) him was. I was concerned that if things were left dangling, the temptation would be too great to eventually reconnect. She admitted she'd texted him yesterday to say goodbye. I was actually relieved as I feel like closure is a possible step.

This was obviously very real emotionally, and from what I've read about the addiction of emotional connection I have to believe she's going to struggle with that. Clearly that's one reason I don't trust they're not going to continue to some degree. The other is the simple fact that this is twice that she's crossed the line. In a weird way I don't care right now. Like I said in my other messages this episode doesn't activate insecurities like the first episode did. My immediate priority is to "come clean" about who I am and I'm just going to have to deal with if she's come clean or not as it happens. I feel like a very confident person in my ability to open up and be vulnerable with her even if the trust hasn't been rebuilt yet. And I've got a huge backlog of opening up to do. Rebuilding trust is going to take time. I don't really know what I need yet to regain that trust. Will have to work on it.

--steve


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

Satya said:


> I'm not excusing what your wife did, not at all, but I can understand why things happened the way they did.


As I said in an earlier message, after the initial shock it only took me a few minutes to realize how much it all simply made sense.

No excusing what she did. Still lots of fallout from that in the future.

But a related yet separate issue from what I've personally been struggling with.

--steve


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Tundra7346 said:


> As I may have mentioned in the OP, we had a blow-up similar (but much less involved) like this about 6 years ago. Afterwards I pushed hard to "fix it" and she pushed back, and was very defensive. HNHN was in the picture and if I remember correctly she didn't want to read it. Or maybe she did but disagreed on certain points--my memory's fuzzy.
> 
> In retrospect, we pretty much just white-knuckled our recovery and while I think she expressed her needs better and I met them for a time, we really needed a much more systematic and sustainable approach. Obviously I didn't work on or keep up those things that I needed for me--over time I think she probably became less direct or confrontational about what she needed from me. There are manuals for this stuff, sadly. Thanks.
> 
> --steve


Well, of course, you know now that there is NO POINT trying to reconcile with someone who won't do the work. So you have a decision to make. If she won't read the book this time, if she won't go to MC, give you access to her phone, etc., then you are wasting your time. IMO, it's a pretty good litmus test.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Tundra7346 said:


> Yes, I did the first time. It definitely applied. I never mentioned--the first time this happened I was addicted to porn. We were sexually very dysfunctional. NMMNG really healed me sexually, and gave me a core of self-validation that putting myself first is never wrong. What I'm realizing is the anxiety disorders -- while I feel are different than low self-esteem or deep insecurity -- have still been an issue I need to manage--for me.
> 
> --steve


Ok, then, you're ready for the next level. Did you read MMSLP, where you take what you learned in NMMNG and apply it to yourself? Did you look into a man's group you can join so that you get a lot of extraneous needs met and come home a happier, healthier person? Are you exercising? Into a sport? Volunteering?


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

turnera said:


> Ok, then, you're ready for the next level. Did you read MMSLP, where you take what you learned in NMMNG and apply it to yourself? Did you look into a man's group you can join so that you get a lot of extraneous needs met and come home a happier, healthier person? Are you exercising? Into a sport? Volunteering?


Yes I read MMSLP and thought it was junk. I "get" the themes but just disagreed with the attitude.

As a result of NMMNG I developed several new male friendships and get great reward from spending time with me. Very validating as a man. Incidentally, they also are mostly drinkers, and I think that's contributed to my own problems drinking too much to numb my anxiety. So thanks for the pointer in as much as it sounds like I might need to rethink some of that male companionship.

Yes I started exercise and have continued for the past 6 years. I do MMA and Boxing, still hope to start BJJ at some point. My wife has always been proud of my "manliness" in this regard--although I know I don't do it for her--I absolutely love the rush of martial arts.

I don't think my wife has concerns about me being a strong male. I think she's become very unhappy about my emotional disconnectedness.

--steve


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## harrybrown (May 22, 2013)

Does the OM know about your MMA experience?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I see a lot of talk of you fixing your stuff what is she doing to fix herself?

I stand by my first post you don't know the half of it.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Tundra7346 said:


> I asked her yesterday when the last time she talked (texted) him was. I was concerned that if things were left dangling, the temptation would be too great to eventually reconnect. *She admitted she'd texted him yesterday to say goodbye*. I was actually relieved as I feel like closure is a possible step.


And you'e okay with this? Did she show you the text? 

(Sighhhhhh) ....oh Tundra.....

See brother, that right there would be the nail on the coffin for me.

Don't you get it Tundra? She's still concerned about his feelings and making sure he sticks around emotionally. That wasn't a goodbye (if that is actually what she said). That was a "I still love you and maybe one day, if things don't work out with Tundra and me, then maybe....." 

She broke no contact, she is still putting his feelings before yours, it is still all about her... She did not need to say goodbye! She didn't need to say anything to that piece of dog excrement. 

At some point you need to put your foot down and put a stop to this....or fold up camp and walk away from her... or just resign yourself to life as a chump. You are the one dragging this out, and you are making sure you stay in limbo, with her stringing you along as long as she can.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

harrybrown said:


> Does the OM know about your MMA experience?


Who cares what he knows?  Who gives a flying f*#k? 

And I don't care how tough Tundra thinks he is. He's getting his ass handed to him by his wife. That's the reality.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

bandit.45 said:


> And you'e okay with this? Did she show you the text?
> 
> (Sighhhhhh) ....oh Tundra.....
> 
> ...


That's why I was asking about the MMSLP and stuff. The only women I've ever seen stay after cheating are the ones whose husbands immediately shut them down, kicked them out, or at least filed for divorce. 

It's the strength that gets women hot for men; biological. MMSLP is all about the strength, no matter how gimmicky you think it is.


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## Thound (Jan 20, 2013)

bandit.45 said:


> Who cares what he knows?  Who gives a flying f*#k?
> 
> And I don't care how tough Tundra thinks he is. He's getting his ass handed to him by his wife. That's the reality.


Ouch!!! True though


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> At some point you need to put your foot down and put a stop to this....


Yup. We're talking about one day elapsed since I confronted her about and this text.

Still stand by closure as good. But you're right that she has still not given me any real reason to "trust" that she has not and will not keep communicating with him. It's a priority for me.

--steve


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

Thound said:


> Ouch!!! True though


Ouch!! But thanks.

--steve


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You gotta stay focused....

Eyes on the prize...

Freedom.


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## badmemory (Jul 31, 2012)

Tundra7346 said:


> Still stand by closure as good.


No Tundra, her needing and you accepting "closure" with her POSOM is not good.

The "I needed closure" excuse for breaking no contact is straight out of the Cheater's Handbook. We've seen it used here by WW's ad nauseum.

The only closure she should have needed, was the steadfast belief that her marriage would end if she broke no contact.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

AND she should have told you BEFORE she contacted him one last time.

She clearly has NO FEAR that you are leaving her. And she's probably lying about telling him goodbye. What they usually do in this situation is tell the guy to lie low for a week or two until she works on you.


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## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

Tundra7346 said:


> Yup. We're talking about one day elapsed since I confronted her about and this text.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Did you see the goodbye text?


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## Sparta (Sep 4, 2014)

OP you better yield to what bandit is telling you. You had NC in place agreed-upon with your wife and she broke it because she wanted closure. I would tell her she's got plenty of closure, she's now has closure with me.! The very next sentence I would say to her pack your sh!t and get out.! bye-bye... but of course she doesn't fear this that's why she did it in the first place because she knows your week. I'm a firm believer in strength right from the beginning with WW's every guy that file for divorce right away usually has their WW begging for mercy and forgiveness.


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## Ghost Rider (Mar 6, 2017)

Tundra7346 said:


> What's the difference between forgiving a PA vs an EA? Is one "less damaging" than the other? If I had to say it's the EA that's worse. If the reason she's gotten to love him is due to the PA, what's the difference? It's the intimacy and her feelings for him that are most damaging.


You think so? To each their own, I guess. I can and have forgiven my wife emotional affairs in the past. But I have not been able to cope with the fact that another man's penis has been in my wife's vagina. I just cannot deal with it or forgive her for it. I will not even touch her now.


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## TDSC60 (Dec 8, 2011)

Tundra7346 said:


> Yup. We're talking about one day elapsed since I confronted her about and this text.
> 
> *Still stand by closure as good. * But you're right that she has still not given me any real reason to "trust" that she has not and will not keep communicating with him. It's a priority for me.
> 
> --steve


But since you did not get a chance to see the email, you have no idea if it was "closure" or "we'll just cool it for awhile until the spouses calm down".

Bandit is right when he said she contacted him because she is still in love with him and is worried about him - not you. It was one more deceit that she did not tell you she was going to do. And you seem to believe everything she says.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Besides all that this sounds like a lot of rug sweeping going on here. None of this looks very good for you. It may seem easier temperately but it's not going to fix anything in the long run it will just prolong the agony.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

Follow-up.

D-day was Sunday 5/21 and I'm still reeling and in shock that there's a real possibility or likelihood my two fantastic boys are going to have to live out their rest teenage years under the shadow of divorce.

I know she's going through withdrawals from OM and fully expect her to relapse. I told her last night reconciliation won't happen unless she's completely NC. It's a choice between another hit of that crack or our marriage/kids.

She still won't commit to reconciliation. She says she is going through a roller coaster every day of being really hopeful then "screw it--I'm not going through that again." She's pessimistic I can ever meet her needs. She's trapped right now in that she really doesn't want to put our kids through this, but admits she doesn't see us being together after they leave, and doesn't want to "just tough it out for four years -- while not getting my needs met." She claims that what she learned with OM was that she deserves to get her needs met and won't compromise on that. She doesn't trust that we can redevelop our relationship to the point she'll be happy (doesn't trust that I won't hurt her again). She admits she's very needy--thinks she needs therapy. Yet is still convinced OM feelings were "real." I yelled at her that her R with the OM was a fantasy and was the easy cop-out instead of working to make things better for us. She's still not there. <-- so much hurt and sadness here.

I'm starting The 180 and just going to proceed with my own recovery, IC, taking care of myself, not pleading, not going to show her my sorrow, just "I'm going to recover from this with or without you." Doing it for me.

Been reading through various 'recovering from infidelity" guides and feel like I'm willing to trust those processes if she 

--steve


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Tundra7346 said:


> Follow-up.
> 
> D-day was Sunday 5/21 and I'm still reeling and in shock that there's a real possibility or likelihood my two fantastic boys are going to have to live out their rest teenage years under the shadow of divorce.
> 
> ...


File for divorce ASAP.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

She sure talks about needs a lot. Why is that? What was your marriage like before this?


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

Tundra, I would suspect that Surviving Infidelity is going to tell you much of the same once you disclose your entire story.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Also...

If OM is a co-worker, neighbor, or anyone with whom your wife has any sort of regular, face-to-face contact, the affair is a full-on PA. Just accept that as fact.

If OM is married, expose the affair to his wife.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Tundra7346 said:


> What's the difference between forgiving a PA vs an EA? Is one "less damaging" than the other? If I had to say it's the EA that's worse. If the reason she's gotten to love him is due to the PA, what's the difference? It's the intimacy and her feelings for him that are most damaging.


Most WWs are "in love" prior to an EA developing into a PA.

Aside from the physical betrayal aspect, and where a WW is concerned, a PA indicates how "far gone" said WW really is.

Also, you can forgive anything... but forgiveness and divorce aren't mutually exclusive concepts. You can do both.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Tundra7346 said:


> She still won't commit to reconciliation. She says she is going through a roller coaster every day of being really hopeful then "screw it--I'm not going through that again." She's pessimistic I can ever meet her needs. She's trapped right now in that she really doesn't want to put our kids through this, but admits she doesn't see us being together after they leave, and doesn't want to "just tough it out for four years -- while not getting my needs met." She claims that what she learned with OM was that she deserves to get her needs met and won't compromise on that. She doesn't trust that we can redevelop our relationship to the point she'll be happy (doesn't trust that I won't hurt her again). She admits she's very needy--thinks she needs therapy. Yet is still convinced OM feelings were "real." I yelled at her that her R with the OM was a fantasy and was the easy cop-out instead of working to make things better for us. She's still not there. <-- so much hurt and sadness here.
> 
> I'm starting The 180 and just going to proceed with my own recovery, IC, taking care of myself, not pleading, not going to show her my sorrow, just "I'm going to recover from this with or without you." Doing it for me.
> 
> ...


See what you are doing is called limbo. Yes, you have kids, I get that, but you will NEVER get those four years back. No, a 180 home WILL NOT be good for your kids. Yes, I know, when you read statistics you'll see how bad divorce is on kids. Except, the hard to find studies are hidden. The non-biased studies are hidden. The really interesting studies are hidden. What you need to dig for is the studies which show you how bad broken marriages, with partners living together being miserable, affects the happiness of their kids. It's ugly and sometimes UGLIER than divorced children.

She told you what she wants, let her find out. Warm water makes you so comfortable you'll pee the bed, cold water wakes you up. I think you know what your wife needs. It's why they say a "cold dose of reality."


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## AdviceForYou (May 24, 2017)

My D Day: 8/3/2003. Discovered what was reportedly an EA with one of my best friends. Did the counseling thing for 2 years. Stayed together. Kid (3yrs old). Gained whatever trust can be gained. Took 4 years or so, but actually felt pretty decent about it. 
Second D Day - Mar 12 2015. Discovered 4 more "EA's," friend, Co-worker, strangers. As far back as 2004. (Yeah, while we were still in counseling with the first one). They aren't all EA's. 
Still together. But I don't care now. I am too tired to seek happiness. Too old to start over. To tired to feel anger. To sad of the way my life turned out to want to change it. The only way I get a good night's sleep is to take the pills my therapist gives me. The only way I get through a day is to sit and cry for 10 or 1 minutes. Every therapy trip, (down to every 2 weeks now), she asks me if I think I might do myself harm. In reality, the only reason I still go is because she is extremely hot. I am guessing one day my *****-wife will just: 1- tire of me and leave, 2-actually find someone else and get the f out, or 3- I will die and she will be free to do what she wants. I welcome the rest of 3. I am not asking for advice from anyone, so please don't give me any. I am giving it to this dude. 
Don't become me. 
It is a f'd up existence. I'm not saying it can't work out. Apparently it has. You see the stories of success every once in a while. I am saying, I used to be one heck of a guy. I still have no regrets for any of my actions, and moving forward I know I was/am a great husband, father and all around guy. But life just isn't fair and I got the big one in the backside. I just don't care anymore. 
Don't become me. 
If you don't think she is into reconciliation 100%, get out. If you are even questioning it, get out. In fairness, it takes time. But set the date for yourself. And stick to it. Give her 60 days, (or whatever), and if she hasn't told you EVERYTHING, leave. (And why do you have to leave? Make her leave). If you have heard EVERYTHING, only then can you work to rebuild. BUT, make it very clear now. After that date, (whatever it is), anything else found out to be not true, or omitted, will be cause for kicking her out. Lies, at that point. No, "Oh I forgot about that." She needs to step up and tell everything and remember everything. Just my .02.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Let her go. Get to the lawyer and file for divorce and get started on your new life. 

She has checked out Tundra. Once a woman shuts the door on love and respect for her husband, it is almost impossible for her to open it again. Women are odd that way.


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## KrisAmiss (May 1, 2017)

My guy is still blaming me for his ridiculous treatment of me. Nothing justifies this! If you have a problem within a relationship, address it. If you can't fix it, get out of it. Your WW is a wimp and wouldn't be doing this without the OM to fall into. I wouldn't show my sorrow to her, not just to "play the game" but because she'll probably be cold as ice.

But I'm a hopeless romantic like you perhaps, OP. I don't think it's impossible that she'll come round, it's just going to be hard when she thinks her EA is The One. Wimpy is she. Call that man. Don't be a raging maniac cuz that'll make you look insane. If their "love" is real, then they can wait until the divorce is done like civilized human beings.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

turnera said:


> She sure talks about needs a lot. Why is that? What was your marriage like before this?


Two unmet needs that have kept up for years:

I don't listen to her.
I dismiss her.

Guilty as charged. There's a lot going on that requires MC (IMHO) if we're going to last at all going forward. She's needy (my judgemental opinion) -- she needs attention and validation from as many people as she can find throughout the day.

She's always been overweight and feels bad about herself physically. While at the same time I've heard her pleas to meet her needs and too many times withheld either accidentally or deliberately like a stubborn screw who doesn't always want to indulge in her needs.

This is not just about superficial (yet important stuff) like telling her she's beautiful. Too many examples to cite.

She has 100% responsibility for the affair and she's admitted that although right now she's clearly still in the fog and is really struggling.
She and I share responsibility for our marriage as a vehicle to get our respective needs met.
She has responsibility for her self image, self worth, self esteem.
I have responsibility for my self image, self worth, self esteem.

--steve


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

bandit.45 said:


> She has checked out Tundra. Once a woman shuts the door on love and respect for her husband, it is almost impossible for her to open it again. Women are odd that way.


I'm steeling myself for this scenario.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Tundra7346 said:


> She's always been overweight and feels bad about herself physically.
> 
> --steve


I suspect once you divorce her the pounds will fall off her like old shingles in a hurricane.

You certainly did not help her 'enough' emotionally in this marriage. My point is this. Did she deserve such treatment?
.......................................................................................................................
Is the below true?:

Has she normally been *unpleasant* and needy. If so, it is very hard to hold her close and soothe her feathers. 
She likely has pushed you away, emotionally for years. She is cranky by nature.

She had become [more so] a prikley cactus. A person hard to hold and cherish. Did she become dried-up, brooding and taciturn. Or was she always that way..or heading in that direction?

It sounds like she is her own worst enemy. 

She facilitated her worst fears, being abandoned. 

This is the thing...it is hard to love and cherish schlubbs and boors. 

You own your behavior..I see that in bold letters. Her? Nope. 

She is a quitter, is weak and is dump-worthy. She gave her love to another schlubb. Once he gets what he wants, he will leave her in the alley.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

She is good about telling you how you did not meet her needs, but i have yet to hear if she met yours?


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

SunCMars said:


> I suspect once you divorce her the pounds will fall off her like old shingles in a hurricane.
> 
> You certainly did not help her 'enough' emotionally in this marriage. My point is this. Did she deserve such treatment?
> .......................................................................................................................
> ...


I'm not going to demonize my wife. Despite the fact that she's wounded me and possibly feels she has to end our marriage, I love and respect her heart.

It's not my place to psychoanalyze her. I'm not going to judge her.

But here's how I often feel when I'm around her:

* I feel like with every compliment, there's an embedded criticism. 
* I feel like she's often "disgusted" with things that I (and I think many others) see as perfectly normal. The word "disgust" is high in her vocabulary.
* I feel like the glass is half empty.

--steve


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Who said demonize? Still, one of the biggest problems with betrayed spouses is the attempt to make the OM the bad guy and internalize all of the wrongs they did as HUGE. See, if you were a jerk I'd call you on it, but what I see more is one spouse takes the weight over everything and the other creates a resentment checklist. Then when things blow up, the spouse who carried all of the weight creates reasons to be a poor partner in the marriage.

I mean you take all of the blame, while saying you tried to meet her needs. In other words, you weren't perfect and made mistakes. She made mistakes and YOU didn't cheat correct? Asking questions isn't about demonizing your wife, it is to see if your self flagellation is warranted.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

Tundra7346 said:


> I'm not going to demonize my wife. Despite the fact that she's wounded me and possibly feels she has to end our marriage, I love and respect her heart.
> 
> It's not my place to psychoanalyze her. I'm not going to judge her.
> 
> ...


You are a good man....a loyal man. Kudos for not knifing her behind her back. I respect that.

On my posts:
I write for effect, to bump you off center. I am often tactless and often way too graphic. 

If I do not write thus, my posts would be more of the same. The other posters do a great job, they do. I am not a mimicker, a "me too".


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

Lostinthought61 said:


> She is good about telling you how you did not meet her needs, but i have yet to hear if she met yours?


No. I too have been unhappy and harboring resentment. I have both "settled" with the loneliness that's developed as well as tried to take on the blame for my needs not being met by my inability to express them.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

SunCMars said:


> On my posts:
> I write for effect, to bump you off center.


I noticed that, and you really gave me pause and made me think about some new stuff which I appreciate.

Forgot to say thanks.

--steve


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Tundra7346 said:


> I'm not going to demonize my wife. Despite the fact that she's wounded me and possibly feels she has to end our marriage, I love and respect her heart.
> 
> It's not my place to psychoanalyze her. I'm not going to judge her.
> 
> ...


See if these fit:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...1/how-spot-and-deal-passive-aggressive-people

Passive Agressive and Difficult Women - What to do about them - The Feminine Woman ? Femininity - Dating & Relationship Advice for Women - The Feminine Woman

The Secret To Dealing With Passive-Aggressive People | HuffPost


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

It has occurred to me that God made Men like you for Women like her.

Nature loves variety........... in everything.

And those that survive pass on their Genes, leaving the EpiGenes for the rest of us to suffer with.

Variety is the spice of life.

Your wife is a spice called bitter root. It is used sparingly in casseroles and in CokTales.

Problem is: With respect to bitterness, how do you lay your soul on her? Your lips on her? The sole of your foot on her.............

Her sole!

A good wife or a good husband should always be in Spring mode.

Not in Fall mode...fall away mode.
Not in Winter mode...ice cubes for flesh.
Not in Summer mode....a one season lover.

A spouse should always be in Spring mode, ready to spring, to jump your bones the minute you enter their Two x Two space. 

God gave men two nuts, women two boobs...and both two arms and two lips. So as to leave no friends behind [unattended]. Behind competing enemy lines.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

@Tundra7346 I would ask you to take a step back an look at the situation and try to take your emotions out of it. Here is Man who's wife cheated on him and after being caught is telling her husband she needs more time to decide whether to pick her boyfriend of the father of her children. This man is adamant that he is responsible for her continued abuse and treating him like a set of playing cards in a poker hand. Does that seem healthy or like it is a accurate picture of what is going on here? Or is it possible that the man's emotion and legitimate loyalty (which is something of value when the spouse also operates the same way) his loyalty has not yet caught up to what has really happened to him and how he has been abused and continues to be abused. Right now your wife is choosing between you and her boyfriend? Why are you not angry about that? Did this man provide children and help contribute a life for her? You need perspective my friend.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

This morning I told her if she doesn't (stay) NC i'm filing for divorce. She's going to decide between him and our family.

Question for the group, WRT the message she sent him Monday, what are your thoughts on me telling his wife about that? I really dont' want to have any more contact with his wife--let their business be their business. But if he's lying to her about having received or possibly replying Monday I'd like to let her know. I would like to tell her we need to get on with our respective lives but if she notices anything to let me know and the other way around.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

No, you should tell her, as that is directly related to whether the affair is running or not. Tell her to ask to SEE the letter (though he'll just say he deleted it). But it will be good for her to have that conversation. Then you can tell her you're moving on.


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## Yeswecan (Jul 25, 2014)

Tundra7346 said:


> This morning I told her if she doesn't (stay) NC i'm filing for divorce. She's going to decide between him and our family.
> 
> Question for the group, WRT the message she sent him Monday, what are your thoughts on me telling his wife about that? I really dont' want to have any more contact with his wife--let their business be their business. But if he's lying to her about having received or possibly replying Monday I'd like to let her know. I would like to tell her we need to get on with our respective lives but if she notices anything to let me know and the other way around.


She is your eyes and ears on the other end. Tell her.


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## Herschel (Mar 27, 2016)

gtfo


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Tundra7346 said:


> This morning I told her if she doesn't (stay) NC i'm filing for divorce. She's going to decide between him and our family.


Stop leaving this up to her! She is telling you she has made her "choice" by NOT making a decision! If she wanted to be with you, then there wouldnt BE any of this crap going on. Make the choice FOR HER and tell her to get the hell out.


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## thedope (Jan 3, 2017)

3Xnocharm said:


> Tundra7346 said:
> 
> 
> > This morning I told her if she doesn't (stay) NC i'm filing for divorce. She's going to decide between him and our family.
> ...


Indeed. She has all the power, never going to respect him at this rate.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Tundra7346 said:


> This morning I told her if she doesn't (stay) NC i'm filing for divorce. She's going to decide between him and our family.
> 
> Question for the group, WRT the message she sent him Monday, what are your thoughts on me telling his wife about that? I really dont' want to have any more contact with his wife--let their business be their business. But if he's lying to her about having received or possibly replying Monday I'd like to let her know. I would like to tell her we need to get on with our respective lives but if she notices anything to let me know and the other way around.


Tell her.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Yeswecan said:


> She is your eyes and ears on the other end. Tell her.


Exactly correct.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

3Xnocharm said:


> Stop leaving this up to her! She is telling you she has made her "choice" by NOT making a decision! If she wanted to be with you, then there wouldnt BE any of this crap going on. Make the choice FOR HER and tell her to get the hell out.


Exactly. You can't control what she chooses to do with the marriage, but you can make a CHOICE by taking the lead. My wife has coworkers, but no so called "guy friends." I can't control who she talks to, who she texts or if she has an affair. I can control what I accept in our marriage, which are limits and an obvious no to all of the above or she's out of my house.

No, she has no choice in my boundaries, consequences or actions concerning this issue. Her choice is to leave because I am "too controlling" or stay while living with my stringent "guy friends" boundaries. Yes, she will make mistakes, but letting things slide and making excuses just gives them more leeway to push boundaries.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
You are allowing your wife to operate a vehicle under the influence. The vehicle is your marriage and the influence is the chaotic, self serving, self indulgent mindset she is currently experiencing. Do you consider this wise? Her mind is heavily influenced by the fantasy of the perfect man. One who will meet her needs and give her all that you cannot. Have you asked her how this perfect man's wife feels about this perfect man presently? You must realize that her decisions now are based on fantasy, not reality for if they were she would see what this perfect man is doing to his wife and family and yours.

If you have any desire whatsoever to salvage this marriage then you must get your intoxicated wife from behind the wheel and steer the vessel yourself. In so doing you must pour hot coffee into her to sober her up to reality. Many here are advising D and the reason is because as shocking processes go D is about as shocking as one can get in marriage. The seriousness of facing a wholly uprooted and changed life sometimes has the effect of sobering up the drunken WS. If it does not awaken her reality sensors then she cannot be reached and the D will go through. If it does "snap her out of the fog" then you can stop it at any time IF she is remorseful and contrite and genuinely devoted to healing the marriage.

Working on yourself is excellent but sitting there and thinking that she will "pick you" is unrealistic. How can you compete with superman? I know the jolt of this revelation is still fresh and you are overwhelmed but you need to take the helm before she runs the marriage aground chasing a fantasy.


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## No Longer Lonely Husband (Nov 3, 2015)

One word comes to mind "consequences ". Your wife has not experienced any. Make her. It is time to get real and get firm. Divorce papers are a damn good start. Reality can knock her silly. Strength not weakness. Act weak you are a loser, be strong, you I'll be a winner. 

Detach and follow 180.


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## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

'I respect your request for privacy and this will be my only communication. My wife and your husband are still talking and sending love messages back and forth. I intend to file for divorce if this continues and since this directly impacts you I felt you should know. I understand where you are and wouldn't wish this upon my worst enemy. My thoughts are with you'


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## WasDecimated (Mar 23, 2011)

bandit.45 said:


> Let her go. Get to the lawyer and file for divorce and get started on your new life.
> 
> She has checked out Tundra. Once a woman shuts the door on love and respect for her husband, it is almost impossible for her to open it again. Women are odd that way.


:iagree: Truer words have never been spoken. I've been there and seen this first hand. I wasted a year in false R with XWW who fell for someone else and slammed/locked the emotional the door to me and our marriage. Once they fall for someone else, it's over. 

Also, when your WW tells you they only met a couple times, don't you dare believe her. My XWW literally swore on the lives of our children that her affair was just an emotional affair. OM even corroborated her story. I later found out that she had been screwing posOM 1 to 2 times a week for 1 1/2 years! They had pre-planned this story in case they were discovered. If OM lives in close proximity, it's been going down. 

My advice is do the 180 and file for Divorce. Leave this mess behind.


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## straightshooter (Dec 27, 2015)

Tundra,

looks like you have two pretty clear choices
(1) play the pick me game
(2) file for divorce ( you can stop it)

if you choose number one,you can with her attitude and what she has said to you, that she will continue to break NC and will restart this affair underground UNLESS the OM wife is fully aware of this and he is trying to save his ass instead of banging your wife.Read a book called Not Just Freinds. Women who actively resist NC, total transparency, and continue to cling to OM, rather than instantly start to do the right thing, are NOT good candidates for R. 

Now you have drawn a red line in the sand, which is meaningless if she crosses it again and you do nothing but moan and groan and yell. It takes TWO people 100% all in to reconcile and anyone who can read cannot believe you have that going on here. 

And if you think its great for your kids to suck it up and live with an unfaithful spouse who probably will do it again you are wrong. your mental state for four years will make you not nearly the parent you can be and probably are. just read this or another forum and see how many mniserable people are there who "stayed for the kids" with an unrepentant cheater.

Now you I believe have told her its NC or the door. You better stick to that one and be able to verify it ( and my guess is unless you want to be in CIA mode you will need a polygraph given her actions so far) before you even think about not divorcing.

And by the way, most of the time when BH is convinced it is just an EA its just the tip of the iceberg.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

Adding on to the above post, they are usually buried, you should read the posts by Adult Children who are angry at BOTH parents when they find out one cheated. Quite a few talk about being angrier at the betrayed spouse because they just took it and then lied about it to their kids. The house was dysfunctional and they could never figure out why. Like I said earlier, it isn't always better for the kids unless you can be 100% all in. Many post here talk about damaged marriages, infidelity, communication issues, being poor spouses and other problems because they NEVER saw a healthy marriage.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

Last several posts have been gems, thank you.
UPDATE: Yesterday the OM called me to "apologize." His wife made him do it. Then he proceeded to lie out of his teeth and deny anything happened. They were just talking about his marriage and it wasn't an "affair." I raged was livid yelling every degrading variant of F-you I could think of.

Then I proceeded to rage on my wife for having the nerve to risk everything for that POS. Talking to that bone-less c.s. I knew immediately I'm 100x the man he is. And let her know how unbelievably bad this is on her--that she'd actually fall for this POS and deliberately and with both eyes open risk our entire family--for what?

Question I've resisted until now is what, exactly she got out of this? But I couldn't resist any more. My faith in her as a human being was shattered. What she said finally was that she "needed a break." He made her laugh.

Risk everything for some laughs. And it hit me like a diamond bullet right in the forehead. Everything becoming crystal clear that she's full of typical bull**** midlife crisis bull**** and while I have consistently been a f-ing wet rag with my own issues, she just needed some fun. But couldn't simply say the words "you're no fun any more, I'm thinking of leaving you" or more productively "let's take a break, life's too serious right now, let's have some fun." I can kick myself in the ass for being "hard to talk to" and a depressed ****, but she opted for the easy way out and hooked up with a f-ing dog instead.

Today's mood: I deserve better than this. I cannot tolerate somebody to treat me and my kids this way. I have my flaws, but deserve somebody who can love me despite my flaws--who can work with me.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Tundra, I DO understand and accept your current attitude about it all. Very common and acceptable. 

I just feel the need to caution you a little. If cheating is your red line, that's fine. Everyone will understand. But it sounds like you're saying you might just go out and find someone else and everything will be fine. What you're not accounting for is that EVERY relationship can end up this way, given the individuals' own idiosyncracies, baggage, issues, fears, and personalities. You withdrew and were hard to talk to. She might be the type of person to NOT bring up her thoughts, to maybe try to muddle through or fix things on her own or even just blame herself. I don't know. But she didn't decide she 'needed a break' in a vacuum. 

If you're going to go out and pick someone else, you may just end up with the same sh&tstorm years down the road, if you don't take the time to learn more about how relationships work, how individuals pull apart, build up walls, stop communicating, even cause harm (you OR her). The more knowledge you have about how relationships evolve, the better you can protect your relationship from devolving.

I suggest you start by reading His Needs Her Needs. It's an easy read and it has a really good outline of what makes a marriage work and what makes a marriage fail. It might help you identify where things went sideways and how to avoid it in the future.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

turnera said:


> What you're not accounting for is that EVERY relationship can end up this way, given the individuals' own idiosyncracies, baggage, issues, fears, and personalities.


Yup. While I was still blaming myself for this I also realized that my own anxiety and demons are my own problems that cause me suffering. First night I woke up and realized that I need IC to address them. I need it for my future. I'm the kind of person who wakes up in the milddle of the night worried about work, and is a pathetic (unhappy) zombie all day. Does that make a bad partner? Yes and no--that's me. But more importantly it's my own personal hell of suffering that I'd be stuck in with my current wife, if I was single and with a future partner.

My number one priority is to own and work on my sh*t. I'll be better off for it no matter what happens.

Right now it's sinking in that she's not right for me. Both in terms of who she's been and who I am. Sorry to all those who say GTFO immediately--it's given me food for thought, but I'm not going to put my kids through that just because somebody on a message board says so. I'm going to start my IC and if she can demonstrate initiative on her part to do some IC or initiate MC, then we'll see where that leads. I'd like some professional opinions before we make the decisions that will affect our kids.

Yesterday when I'd reached the calm after raging at her, I simply told her that as our boys' mother she'd neglected her duty to protect the family. Later she woke up from a nightmare sobbing hysterically, saying I'm sorry I'm sorry (in her sleep) and finally woke enough to say she's finally realized she f**kd our family. I am pretty sure she's not out of the fog yet (and neither am I), but I feel like a lot depends if she can prioritize our family's future doing some simple internet research on "recovering from an affair" and some reading and make the IC appointments, or if she's going to spend it on Facebook liking her girlfriend's status and posting happy sh**t.

As I write all this I can feel my control-freak nature and the arrogance that I've "got it all figured out." But reality is last night I'd reached a calm where I knew that I don't know how to do this. Just looking forward to the IC to help guide me.

--steve


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## Ckone1800 (Jul 13, 2015)

Tundra7346 said:


> Right now it's sinking in that she's not right for me. Both in terms of who she's been and who I am. Sorry to all those who say GTFO immediately--it's given me food for thought, but I'm not going to put my kids through that just because somebody on a message board says so. I'm going to start my IC and if she can demonstrate initiative on her part to do some IC or initiate MC, then we'll see where that leads. I'd like some professional opinions before we make the decisions that will affect our kids.



This is what every freshly betrayed says to convince themselves of something they want to do, but know it's really the wrong move. 

I understand denial, really. 

The folks posting here are about the most professional people you will ever talk to regarding infidelity. People here have experienced it first hand, learned from other people's stories and experience and compiled it altogether to give the best advice that they know. 

Sometimes it comes across as harsh. Most of the time it's painful. 

Once you start following the guidelines the great folks here are laying out for you, the quicker you'll feel better and begin to heal. 

Do not use your children as an excuse to continue to live in infidelity, as your argument about changing their lives has already happened, and you didn't choose it, your WW did. 

Only you should making the decisions now, and those decisions should be focused on you and your childrens future without infidelity. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Tundra7346 said:


> Last several posts have been gems, thank you.
> UPDATE: Yesterday the OM called me to "apologize." His wife made him do it. Then he proceeded to lie out of his teeth and deny anything happened. They were just talking about his marriage and it wasn't an "affair." I raged was livid yelling every degrading variant of F-you I could think of.
> 
> Then I proceeded to rage on my wife for having the nerve to risk everything for that POS. Talking to that bone-less c.s. I knew immediately I'm 100x the man he is. And let her know how unbelievably bad this is on her--that she'd actually fall for this POS and deliberately and with both eyes open risk our entire family--for what?
> ...


About time. And you're right!


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## eric1 (Apr 10, 2015)

It is sinking in, Tundra. Give yourself a few days of doing 100% 180 to start getting that detachment in motion. You'll need that detachment to control your emotions. You next decisions should be as devoid as emotion as possible.


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Tundra

Regardless of what you ultimately decide is the best for you, be sure this decision isn't a knee jerk reaction. Instead, give yourself time, file for divorce and have her served at work. Then take six months to decide what is best for you. Even if you later say you want to reconcile you can stop the divorce. If you decide to divorce then your already six months into the process. 

Get into IC and fix yourself, become the best you that you can be. Work hard at this, the only people that will benefit from this is you. You will also become a better person for your kids. Best of luck to you.


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## Thestarsarefalling (Apr 16, 2017)

SunCMars said:


> Tundra7346 said:
> 
> 
> > What I don't understand is how somebody can text back and forth and achieve such emotional connection? * Like what do you say to each other that makes things so intimate? What need is he filling that I wasn't, or might not be able to?*
> ...



I am impressed! Those are basically the text messages my stbx was sending to OW. Mix in a few stories from their youth too.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

drifting on said:


> Tundra
> 
> Regardless of what you ultimately decide is the best for you, be sure this decision isn't a knee jerk reaction. Instead, give yourself time, file for divorce and have her served at work. Then take six months to decide what is best for you. Even if you later say you want to reconcile you can stop the divorce. If you decide to divorce then your already six months into the process.


This is gold, thanks. 

I feel like she needs to know the consequences are divorce--that's the default. I won't be treated this way. 

If there's reconciliation, then so be it--but she'll need to do some heavy lifting to make that happen.

Right now I think it's sinking in that her unhappiness might not have been all me. She got an EAP authorization for IC though my work and in the process took a self assessment that says she's depressed. Still might blame that on me, but her "midlife crisis" is more complicated than simply not getting her needs met.

--steve


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Tundra7346 said:


> Y
> Right now it's sinking in that she's not right for me. Both in terms of who she's been and who I am. * Sorry to all those who say GTFO immediately--it's given me food for thought, but I'm not going to put my kids through that just because somebody on a message board says so. I'm going to start my IC and if she can demonstrate initiative on her part to do some IC or initiate MC, then we'll see where that leads. I'd like some professional opinions before we make the decisions that will affect our kids.*
> 
> Yesterday when I'd reached the calm after raging at her, I simply told her that as our boys' mother she'd neglected her duty to protect the family. Later she woke up from a nightmare sobbing hysterically, saying I'm sorry I'm sorry (in her sleep) and finally woke enough to say she's finally realized she f**kd our family. I am pretty sure she's not out of the fog yet (and neither am I), but I feel like a lot depends if she can prioritize our family's future doing some simple internet research on "recovering from an affair" and some reading and make the IC appointments, or if she's going to spend it on Facebook liking her girlfriend's status and posting happy sh**t.
> ...


Please just be vigilant should she go along with attending any kind of therapy... a very close friend of mine started going through MC with her husband, who she cheated on, and was screwing another man the entire time. I couldnt tell you why she bothered going through the motions, but her actions serve as good warning for others going through this.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Tundra7346 said:


> This is gold, thanks.
> 
> I feel like she needs to know the consequences are divorce--that's the default. I won't be treated this way.
> 
> ...


So what? 

Everybody is depressed. Everybody has anxiety. Everybody is paranoid. Welcome to Century 21 pal. 

It is not an excuse. She had an affair because she wanted to. To escape. She has poor coping skills and sh*t for boundaries and she makes excuses. Quit grasping for reasons of mitigate her actions. Tell her to take sorry and shove it up her a##. Sorry is what you say when you back into somebody's car and dent their bumper. What she did is way beyond sorry, and you need to let her know this.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Tundra7346 said:


> This is gold, thanks.
> 
> I feel like she needs to know the consequences are *divorce--that's the default*. I won't be treated this way.
> 
> ...


The word means nothing unless you are really ready to go through with it. I would have the petition drawn up and signed and ready to file. Get copies of it and let her see it. Tell her she's one hairbreadth away from losing her family as she knows it.


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## NoChoice (Feb 12, 2012)

OP,
Allow me to echo what driftingon said. Do not make a life changing decision in anger. You are processing through the stages, denial, self blame, and now rage. It is perfectly normal but I simply caution you against making any decisions that will have far reaching implications during this time. Time will allow you to calm down and to observe your wife's actions. She will eventually prove to you that she is either urgently desirous of healing you/the marriage or she is more concerned with herself and her "feelings".

I do not find it at all surprising that she has been diagnosed with depression. She has just lost her fantasy and must now face her new reality. Her old reality was something from which she needed "a break" and now she has that with the additional stress that the A has wrought. I often feel that labeling individuals with various "conditions" merely serves to provide them an excuse for their actions. In place of being depressed about what SHE has lost, she should have a renewed motivation and sense of urgency to repair that which she has damaged within the family/marriage. That alone is an indicator of where her true feelings lie.

Again, I would offer that anger can be a potent motivator but it can also have a severely detrimental effect in that, much like the "affair fog", it clouds the mind and interrupts more rational and reasoned thought. Be cautious to use the anger to your benefit and not to allow it to override your more reasoned responses. We here are usually very quick to push divorce/separation over R and there are arguments to be made on both sides however, I subscribe more to the "bird in the hand" philosophy and the "devil you know" principle. I will admit however, that for R to be successful the WS must be willing to sacrifice themself for the healing of the marriage which can be arduous to the point of not worth it to the vast majority of them.

There is one inescapable conclusion that one must face and that is that R is not even worth attempting unless BOTH parties are all in 100%. Anything less will equal failure. So far it is unclear from your posts wether your W is all in or not but it would appear not to me.


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## Tundra7346 (May 22, 2017)

NoChoice said:


> There is one inescapable conclusion that one must face and that is that R is not even worth attempting unless BOTH parties are all in 100%. Anything less will equal failure. So far it is unclear from your posts wether your W is all in or not but it would appear not to me.


I agree with you about not acting in anger. It's only D-Day +5. Need to process a lot of emotions right now. As somebody who generally withholds and cultures resentment, I'm practicing expressing how I feel as I feel it--just to keep my sanity. But some processing is going to be private and take some time to settle down. I fully expect that in bit (and after some IC opinion as well) I can rationally draw up the D papers. Right now that's the only thing I can think of that will let her know where I stand when my wife falls in love with another man. Maybe something else will seem the rational thing to do instead, can't say right now.

Is she "all in" or not? I don't know either but am skeptical. I think she's still in the fog, and I think she's skeptical that she's going to be "happy" with me. I am coming to terms with the "i love you but i'm not in love with you" sentiment--which she hasn't said, but her actions are saying for her. Right now in the fog and given her feeling (justified or not) that I've hurt her too much over the years, I suspect she can't visualize an honest reconciliation on her part. If I saw her doing things like taking the 10 minutes to google "how can I help my BS heal from an affair" or whatever and come to me with ideas for remorseful action, then I'd be just a tiny bit more encouraged. But that's not her style for one thing, and given the fog and emotional turmoil she's just not there right now.

--steve


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Tundra7346 said:


> Is she "all in" or not? I don't know either but am skeptical. I think she's still in the fog, and I think she's skeptical that she's going to be "happy" with me.


Of course she is. Could you stop loving coffee or The Simpsons or whatever just because you found out they were wrong or harmful? Overnight? 

Feelings are feelings. Whether they're in the wrong situation or not, she still feels warm fuzzies when she thinks of him. The only way to make that stop, go away, is for her to have no contact with him - for months, if not years. Just the way our brains work.


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## Roselyn (Sep 19, 2010)

Tundra, career woman here, 59 years old, 37 years married (first marriage for the both of us). Your wife's affair would have continued if not for the OM's wife calling you. Your wife was caught with her affair. She told you that she is in love with another man. I sincerely do not believe that a woman could love another man and risk her family if her affair has not gone both EA and PA.

The OM has rejected your wife and chosed to remain in his marriage. Her fantasy is shattered. You are Plan B. You need to be realistic. Reconciliation is only an afterthought for her at this moment. You need to take swift action as she is still stunned. You need to file the divorce papers and go all out. I believe that conditions are in your favor. She has made herself a girlfriend material. Make it so!

Sorry that you are here.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Tundra7346 said:


> I agree with you about not acting in anger. It's only D-Day +5. Need to process a lot of emotions right now. As somebody who generally withholds and cultures resentment, I'm practicing expressing how I feel as I feel it--just to keep my sanity. But some processing is going to be private and take some time to settle down. I fully expect that in bit (and after some IC opinion as well) I can rationally draw up the D papers. Right now that's the only thing I can think of that will let her know where I stand when my wife falls in love with another man. Maybe something else will seem the rational thing to do instead, can't say right now.
> 
> Is she "all in" or not? I don't know either but am skeptical. I think she's still in the fog, and I think she's skeptical that she's going to be "happy" with me. I am coming to terms with the "i love you but i'm not in love with you" sentiment--which she hasn't said, but her actions are saying for her. Right now in the fog and given her feeling (justified or not) that I've hurt her too much over the years, I suspect she can't visualize an honest reconciliation on her part. If I saw her doing things like taking the 10 minutes to google "how can I help my BS heal from an affair" or whatever and come to me with ideas for remorseful action, then I'd be just a tiny bit more encouraged. But that's not her style for one thing, and given the fog and emotional turmoil she's just not there right now.
> 
> --steve


It is very striking that your whole post is oriented about what she feels, what she will do. You have no thoughts to what you deserve, I thought you had finally gotten that. You could be a monster and that doesn't give her the right to abuse you. She had any myriad of options.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

turnera said:


> Of course she is. Could you stop loving coffee or The Simpsons or whatever just because you found out they were wrong or harmful? Overnight?
> 
> Feelings are feelings. Whether they're in the wrong situation or not, she still feels warm fuzzies when she thinks of him. The only way to make that stop, go away, is for her to have no contact with him - for months, if not years. Just the way our brains work.


The issue really isn't if she is in the fog or not, the issue is that she allowed herself to get into a fog in the first place. Meaning she is not a good candidate to have a long term relationship with now. Not unless she does hard work. These things don't change on their own. No everyone is marriage material.


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## TX-SC (Aug 25, 2015)

Generally I am pro R, and I do see it as an option here, though probably a long shot. Putting the affair aside for a moment, the reality is that your wife is no longer attracted to you and feels she is no longer in love with you. This is a major issue and one that is not easily remedied. If you stay together, it will only be because of her/your sense of wanting to preserve the family. 

I agree with the others that your best course of action is to file for divorce and have her served. It will put you in a good position and will either validate that she just isn't interested in you or it will bring her to her senses. 

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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Tundra

It is very recent from d-day as you said. It is also the most important time for you. This is something we all see, but ask yourself why we see it this way? We have all basically been through this, we know what you are going through. You may think we are all just some internet strangers, and you'd be correct. You probably think your situation is different then most, and you MIGHT be correct. But your wife is following a script we all know to well. 

I'm not saying to divorce or reconcile, I'm saying to file for divorce, have her served at work, and wait six months to decide. Your emotions will calm in that time. I say to do this because divorce papers are a consequence, but only you will know you can stop the divorce. This is a transition of power back to you. At the end of six months, your decision to divorce or reconcile is now made from a position of strength and not fleeting emotions. 

Take your life back in this time, but also show you are willing to let the marriage go. If you want to save the marriage you must be willing to lose the marriage. This will show strength to your wife, suddenly her plan of being with you has been shaken. This is how you knock the WS off their plan, remove the fog, and stand face to face with their terrible decisions. 

Take your life back Tundra, knock her unsteady, 180 hard for the next six months.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I am just curious, did you confirm a PA? I tried reading back through it all and could not find anything that really said that.

I am not sure if it matters that much for the reconciliation, but at least it is one less hurdle to clear.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

sokillme said:


> It is very striking that your whole post is oriented about what she feels, what she will do. You have no thoughts to what you deserve, I thought you had finally gotten that.  You could be a monster and that doesn't give her the right to abuse you. She had any myriad of options.


Tundra"s mom must have been merciless towards him when he was growing up.


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## jarhed (Nov 11, 2012)

Work on yourself - and if she is willing to "do anything" get her to sign a settlement that is financially advantageous for YOU! Strike while the iron is hot. GTF OUT of this relationship. 


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## mickybill (Nov 29, 2016)

Tundra7346 said:


> I agree with you about not acting in anger. It's only D-Day +5. Need to process a lot of emotions right now.


You both do.

You have the shock of finding out the truth of what your wife has been up to, and what direction you want to go in and how to do that. WW-BS-OM-R-D-Sep-IC-MC so many acronyms to learn. But at the end of the day you have the integrity to do what is best for your family. Or at least make the effort. no marriage is perfect and you share some of that, but you didn;t bring another person into your marriage.

Your wife on the other hand, her little rainbow world just turned black and white. A few weeks ago she had you for the regular boring responsible stuff and was maybe 50% happy with that, and she had the OM for the sexy, fantasy, dreamy, stuff that my give her 40% more happiness. 90% is a pretty good happiness quotient.
Now the OM is gone and she may think you are very likely going to divorce her. That sort of drains her happiness tank. It will take her a while to pull her head out the clouds/ass and be rational...hell she may want a D or may want to work hard for R. Neither of you are in a spot to decide.

Time. It will take time to get into a place where you can make a decision let alone what decision that will be. She may be waiting/looking for you to take the lead out of this mess.

If you start the D process now you can pull the plug on it if things get better. But by getting that ball rolling she may clear her mind. Seeing legal doc that say Mr Tundra V. Mrs Tundra could get her attention.

Good luck.


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## Pavis (May 26, 2017)

usually i ignore these posts but i had to tell you something. ...
ok your wife cheated and worse.. but ask yourself... what did you do that led her to an affair? 
this not excusing her affair. we all know its wrong. 

women have emotional and physicall affairs because they are not getting nurtured by their men. same goes for guys that cheat, they are getting ignored by their women so they will go out and have affairs. 

my point is: what did your wife not get from you that caused her to have an affair? 

it seems like your wife cant be herself around you for some reason. if she is shy sexually then something about you that is causing her to be kind of a different person. you seem like a good guy but maybe your insult her, or get angry easily that she cant be herself. usually guys treat other people better and when they go home they are totally different with their spouses. . there is something about you that scares her where she cant be herself and open up to you. at this point she probably needs you for financial support so she dont want to let go of you. you both need couples therapy and i reccomend you get individual therapy. there should be no reason why your wife has to hold back from being her fun and happy self around you.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Her affair is NOT her husband's fault! At any point, if she was unhappy with him in whatever way, then she needed to open her mouth and make it known. If she didnt feel she could do that, then she should have LEFT. PERIOD.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

> it seems like your wife cant be herself around you for some reason. if she is shy sexually then something about you that is causing her to be kind of a different person. you seem like a good guy but maybe your insult her, or get angry easily that she cant be herself. usually guys treat other people better and when they go home they are totally different with their spouses. . there is something about you that scares her where she cant be herself and open up to you. at this point she probably needs you for financial support so she dont want to let go of you. you both need couples therapy and i reccomend you get individual therapy. there should be no reason why your wife .


Wait so she is so oppressed, she ruins another woman's marriage because "she can't be herself" and "has to hold back from being her fun and happy self around" her husband? You know, with the MILLIONS of single guys all over her state and the internet? 

Yeah, no.


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## Ckone1800 (Jul 13, 2015)

Pavis said:


> usually i ignore these posts but i had to tell you something. ...
> 
> ok your wife cheated and worse.. but ask yourself... what did you do that led her to an affair?
> 
> ...



This doesn't cover the reason for my wife's affair. It is her being broken, always looking for new, always trying to upgrade, selfishness, ego addicted. 

None of these things had anything to do with what I was or was not in control over. 

Tundra may not have polished his shoes daily, and his wife may decide that's why she loves another guy. So what? That doesn't make someone have an affair. 




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## straightshooter (Dec 27, 2015)

*usually i ignore these posts but i had to tell you something. ...

ok your wife cheated and worse.. but ask yourself... what did you do that led her to an affair? 

this not excusing her affair. we all know its wrong. 
*

Would have been more productive if this guy had done his usual and ignored your problem Tundra. You are the victim here, owning 50% of the marital problems. She owns 100% of the affair and disregard this crap about what you did to cause it. Is everything about her perfect and nothing bothers you. But you did not go out and bang another woman.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Pavis said:


> women have emotional and physicall affairs because they are not getting nurtured by their men. same goes for guys that cheat, they are getting ignored by their women so they will go out and have affairs.


This is just not true. People cheat because they don't have the character to handle whatever the problem may be in a more productive way. The same way angry people use violence when they don't have the coping mechanisms to deal with with their anger. No one would blame the person on the receiving end of the violence. Abuse is abuse and is the fault of the abuser.


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## thedope (Jan 3, 2017)

I still don't think we are getting the full story from Mrs. Tundra


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## drifting on (Nov 22, 2013)

Tundra

How are you doing? I can only hope you are doing somewhat better and your footing a little more solid.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

Pavis said:


> usually i ignore these posts but i had to tell you something. ...
> ok your wife cheated and worse.. but ask yourself... what did you do that led her to an affair?
> this not excusing her affair. we all know its wrong.
> 
> ...


People cheat because they lack the moral character to _not_ cheat.

And that's it.


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## MAJDEATH (Jun 16, 2015)

GusPolinski said:


> Pavis said:
> 
> 
> > usually i ignore these posts but i had to tell you something. ...
> ...


And/or they just want to.


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## ABHale (Jan 3, 2016)

MAJDEATH said:


> And/or they just want to.


Which means they have no morals and a piss pot character.


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## GusPolinski (Jan 21, 2014)

MAJDEATH said:


> And/or they just want to.


Same thing.


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