# Is good sex life in troubled marriage helping or the opposite?



## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Inspired by my own experience and several threads lately on TAM I started wondering about the role of sex in trouble marriages.

Does good healthy sex life help trouble marriage or just extends the misery, creates an illusion that things are getting better, or may be better?

We read often here that sex creates a bond and intimacy. And it does. But the problems are still there, not getting away. it is easier to handle them for a while, there is more good will, until the next issue arises. 

We also read often here that too many men think everything is ok as long as there is sex. And then once the sex stops, they finally see the issues. So, the sex is clouding our view of relationship somehow. 

Sex is neccessary to create intimacy in the relationship, no question about it. But I also believe that it may distract and confuse us too. What are your thoughts about it? I am trying to figure out here my own situation...


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## Amplexor (Feb 13, 2008)

WandaJ said:


> Does good healthy sex life help trouble marriage or just extends the misery, creates an illusion that things are getting better, or may be better?


Years ago, my wife disconnected from me, our sex life all but died, I distanced myself from her, she had an emotional affair. After D-Day, sex was completely none existent in the marriage for 2 years. My wife couldn't find it in herself to reconnect with me even after the affair was dead. When I had exhausted all other strategies I required her to restart the sex life even though she didn't feel bonded to me. I was amazed at how quickly that tied the rest of the reconciliation off and we recovered. Sexual intimacy in our case was the last piece of the puzzle. However, it's place in helping a troubled marriage depends on the situation. 




WandaJ said:


> We also read often here that too many men think everything is ok as long as there is sex. And then once the sex stops, they finally see the issues. So, the sex is clouding our view of relationship somehow.


This is spot on for many (most) men including myself. We can be a complete neanderthal when it comes to this, happily skipping down our rosy path, clubbing saber toothed tigers and mastodons along the way.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Lets look at it this way. Imagine if your married to a passive-aggressive person. As long as everything goes right for that person, their personal issues will rarely surface. Then it becomes a game to walk on egg shells, try and avoid things that might upset the marriage, even though it is good to upset the marriage once in a while to effect change.

Your husband is still someone who has anger problems, nothing is triggering it that much at the moment, but it is still there.

The sex life will effect a certain level of that honeymoon phase love, but the problems remain. There is a better chance of working on it during the good times when people are more motivated to do something. So, get into counseling, and work on those problems. His behavior and old habits are still there, his anger is a response that is ingrained into him.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening WandaJ
I think it depends critically on what the original problems were in the marriage. 

If the original problems were sexual, then good sex may make the root cause go away.

If the problems were a lack of emotional bonding, then again sex may make a couple feel close and more loving.

Some practical problems for some people are improved by sex. A good sex life makes me happier, much more tolerant of all the random curves life throws my way. It makes me more pleasant, less stressed. 

But if the problems are due to selfishness, then sex may not help at all - in fact it may just become an extension of the selfishness.

If problems are due to fundamentally different ideas about life, or the future, then sex may seem to make things better, but doesn't fix the root cause.


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## SecondTime'Round (Jan 15, 2015)

My experience - the greatest sex I've ever had was my horrible STBX. Didn't matter one little bit.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

I haven't had this precise experience, but I would think that continuing to have sex would make it hard to detach if that is your goal.

If your goal is to reunite, I would think the sex will help. I would resist the temptation to turn sex into a bartering tool. That would only increase resentment, I would think.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

I read between the lines of your post, and the answer is yes! If you as a woman do not wish make any compromises what so ever in your marriage, then it is likely that you can distract your husband with very good sex and he will not notice that you always get away with whatever you want! 

On the other hand too much good sex will overload his brain's ability to create dopamine and cause him to become irritable and create huge arguments where there really would not be. In this case you need to remove all sex and allow his dopamine and testosterone to build to extraordinary high levels and he will desire you so much again that he will treat you as a goddess and you can continue getting away with all sorts of atrocities.

Now the "art form" of a great marriage is to know when to give more sex and when to withhold sex! Simply speaking many women just don't get that part, and for that reason 95% of the time everything just goes to he!l. :FIREdevil:

 
Badsanta


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## Muse1976 (Apr 25, 2015)

"We also read often here that too many men think everything is ok as long as there is sex. And then once the sex stops, they finally see the issues. So, the sex is clouding our view of relationship somehow."

And this is where you start pushing for MC so that you guys can create a action plan and reassess the goals on a regular basis.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

I've only ever had sustained good sex in my current marriage, so sample of one relationship...but for us it is just plain good, solid sexual chemistry. It really never fades. It is effortless. Even if we don't have time or are in the mood for actual sex, the desire for each other is always present. Our touches and kisses always reflect it. I've never had a "friendly" kiss from him, only romantic or passionate ones. Even a peck has a zing to it between us!

We also do have a troubled marriage. Our troubles are separate from the sex and it isn't affected, other than to say that we have sex less often if we are fighting. 

I think we are turning a corner on our marriage troubles...we are working on it.

I can definitely say that without this good sex and chemistry? I would have bailed very early on when our relationship became rocky. A relationship isn't worth staying in, IMO, without the good sex...I'd rather just date people than be in a relationship. But our chemistry reminds us always of that connection and the deep love we really have.

Actually to note this...I think most people at TAM really have deep love for their spouse. Even john117. His love for her is so deep that it makes him hate her for not being the "her" he fell in love with. And other people who are struggling and wishing for their partner's love and affection, even though they also kind of hate them now or are in deep conflict...the various scenarios here all still represent a deep love.

My H and I have that deep, true love for each other...but if we didn't also have the good sex, that wouldn't be enough for me to stay in a relationship. I am HD though. And if I wasn't, I assume it might be worth it to me to stick it out in a troubled relationship without much sex. So I realize my perspective as coming from an HD person is very specific.

Great sex or forget it, baby! That's just me.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

I'd be careful not to weaponize your sex life.

That said - if the marriage is in bad shape and he's not working with you to fix it - an honest conversation is needed. 

Might be: I'm getting to the point where I'm not going to want to sleep with you anymore if you don't make more effort. 





WandaJ said:


> Inspired by my own experience and several threads lately on TAM I started wondering about the role of sex in trouble marriages.
> 
> Does good healthy sex life help trouble marriage or just extends the misery, creates an illusion that things are getting better, or may be better?
> 
> ...


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## another shot (Apr 14, 2015)

I am inspired to be the super man my wife wants me to be when we are intimate.

Lack of sex and I fall rather quickly into what's the point of this bull$hit

I am most open to communicating after we have had a romp. I don't want to hear $hit even I'm not getting any. 

Love language is physical touch. Wife's is acts of service.

Both of our seconds is quality time. 

She can have all the acts of service and QT she wants if I am getting mine.

Harsh but I am blunt about it now because of past confusion

It looks like I am rather transactional in some fashion. OK. So be it


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Thank you everyobody. To clarify - I am not planning to use sex as a negotiating tool. We have always been more or less balanced in our sexual desires. We have started on turning marriage around after D day back in December. Things have greatly improved, although far from perfect. And sex life is better than it has been in a long time. 
But what kills me is those swings - from great sex to another passive-aggressive outburst (alhtouth they are getting lighter, I think). It is confusing to understand which part is the real one, the one that thinks "hey this is good, I cannot imagine it cannot stay that way now" to "Why do I even bother"? 

I will respond so some of the individual posters who had some remarks very relevant for me, later today.


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## happy as a clam (Jan 5, 2014)

Wanda, I can't remember-- have you two been to counseling? If not, I would suggest it.

Having been married to a very passive aggressive man, I can tell you from experience that this is one of the hardest personality types to live with. Even when things are good, you're always walking on eggshells, waiting for the next snark, barb, or childish outburst. And there is always an undercurrent of tension and unease. The level of nastiness is unfathomable to most people who haven't lived with it.

I think good sex is a great thing if you can rein in his negative personality traits 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

It can go either way. If you are both sincerely working on the issues and making progress, good sex keeps you motivated to continue working on things.

If you are not dealing with the issues, it can mask the problems and prolong the dysfunction.


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## Blonde (Jan 7, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> Inspired by my own experience and several threads lately on TAM I started wondering about the role of sex in trouble marriages.
> 
> Does good healthy sex life help trouble marriage or* just extends the misery, creates an illusion that things are getting better, or may be better?*
> 
> We read often here that sex creates a bond and intimacy. And it does. But the problems are still there, not getting away. it is easier to handle them for a while, there is more good will, until the next issue arises.


*^^this*

Keeps you trapped too long IME

(christian) MC once told us there are three legs to a M










If only one leg is strong, the M is broken.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

I doubt it.


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## batsociety (Jan 23, 2015)

I don't have personal experience with this, but a really good friend of mine recently (okay like, six years ago) broke it off with her partner of 12 years. When I asked her about it, she said she'd had some health issues that required surgery and had to abstain from most sexual activity for a couple months. During that time she realized that (exact quote because we had this conversation on FB) "the sex was so good that it wasn't until it was forcibly removed that I realized I absolutely despised him as a person". Sex kept her mostly blind to the severity of their issues for 12 years! 12! So I definitely think that it can have the opposite affect.

But I agree with richardsharpe it really depends on what those issues are to begin with and it can go both ways.


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## Lionelhutz (Feb 2, 2012)

It isn't a yes or no question. 

Sex is a key component of a good marriage unless both partners no longer want it. But that is just it, it is a component, it is not the marriage.

To get through bad times, a marriage needs all the help it can get. Support, communication, love, emotional stability, and sex. 

There are lots of bad relationships that are extended by great sex but I would guess it is also true of money either too little to afford the divorce or so much that problems are easier to ignore.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Mr. Fisty, you do have really good insight into my situation. Things are good, but I am unconsciously filtering what I am saying, what I am doing. I do not even notice it until I pay attention. 

We have just started talking again about MC, after I have e-mailed him the Gottman quote from jld's thread. It might be easier to do it now, when things are better and resentments are not that high.

But this is part of his DNA. I see many of those features in our ten year old. the other child will act out in the "normal" way, as most kids do. This time will break all the boundaries, get into self-destructive path, just beacuse she can not stop herself. Very hard to deal with, although she is getting a little better. 



Mr.Fisty said:


> Lets look at it this way. Imagine if your married to a passive-aggressive person. As long as everything goes right for that person, their personal issues will rarely surface. Then it becomes a game to walk on egg shells, try and avoid things that might upset the marriage, even though it is good to upset the marriage once in a while to effect change.
> 
> Your husband is still someone who has anger problems, nothing is triggering it that much at the moment, but it is still there.
> 
> The sex life will effect a certain level of that honeymoon phase love, but the problems remain. There is a better chance of working on it during the good times when people are more motivated to do something. So, get into counseling, and work on those problems. His behavior and old habits are still there, his anger is a response that is ingrained into him.





richardsharpe said:


> Good evening WandaJ
> I think it depends critically on what the original problems were in the marriage.
> 
> If the original problems were sexual, then good sex may make the root cause go away.
> ...


Spot on, Richard. I think we are the last two: selfishness to the extent, and different ideas about life. Whis is strange because twenty years ago it seemed like great match. And it is still on many levels, but the difference are there.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

happy as a clam said:


> Wanda, I can't remember-- have you two been to counseling? If not, I would suggest it.
> 
> Having been married to a very passive aggressive man, I can tell you from experience that this is one of the hardest personality types to live with. Even when things are good, you're always walking on eggshells, waiting for the next snark, barb, or childish outburst. And there is always an undercurrent of tension and unease. The level of nastiness is unfathomable to most people who haven't lived with it.
> 
> ...


happy as claim, this is very much us. I do have to say things are better, he is trying. But as I mentioned above - I do fitler what I am saying or doing without even thinking about it. This always be there. And his grouchiness will never disappear, it will be always part of the personality. And this is part that's very hard on me, sucks the energy out of me when it happens.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

batsociety said:


> I don't have personal experience with this, but a really good friend of mine recently (okay like, six years ago) broke it off with her partner of 12 years. When I asked her about it, she said she'd had some health issues that required surgery and had to abstain from most sexual activity for a couple months. During that time she realized that (exact quote because we had this conversation on FB) "the sex was so good that it wasn't until it was forcibly removed that I realized I absolutely despised him as a person". Sex kept her mostly blind to the severity of their issues for 12 years! 12! So I definitely think that it can have the opposite affect.
> 
> But I agree with richardsharpe it really depends on what those issues are to begin with and it can go both ways.


this is telling story.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, I suggest ic for him first. It will help him develop tools for diffusing his anger. For instance,diaphragm breathing is a technique that slows down the heart rate, lowers blood pressure, and helps calm down the body. Anger does the exact opposite, so this tool helps in bringing down those biological response.

Another trick is serene imagery, thinking about a calming image will produce the same effects. Learning to be mindful will help keep your mind in the here and now, it helps people become more aware of everything around them. Changing one's lifestyle is another, being healthy both mentally and physically will increase one's well-being, and those stress hormones will be naturally lowered as well.

Not to mention developing good communication skills, and there is where an ic can help him recognize his emotions. He will be aware of those physical feelings, recognize them, and use the tools he has to learn to undo the anger.

When extreme emotions are felt, for some, their rational brain shuts down and they become mostly impulse. The goal is to stop that from occurring.

As for you, he has taught you to shut down in certain aspects. In that way, he has trained you to behave in that manner, and now it has become a habit. When he talks at a certain decimal, or uses a certain tone, it triggers you to mentally protect yourself.

Actions do not happen in a vacuum, they are a ripple effect that spreads out. The closer one is to the situation, the more it affects them personally. The people we have around us, they affect our behavior and personality.

Also, the both of you have changed over the years. With out that good communication skills, you have drifted further apart. It keeps the relationship shallow, and of course, intimacy is affected as well.

As for your children, when they act out, do not recognize it. It only teaches them that this is a way of getting attention. When they respond positively, you engage. Children and adolescence, their prefrontal cortex is not yet fully developed, so they will act more impulsively depending on their emotions. By teaching them how to respond, or impulse control, it will help develop that portion of their brain faster. Young people's brain are good at learning at an incredible rate. This is the best time to instill in them healthy habits and behavior. They have to be allowed to make mistakes as well. Pain, or positive reinforcement, which means receiving certain stimuli, is a form of learning. If someone touches fire, they learn not to touch fire. You can only help direct your children, you cannot place them into molds of what you want. Don't forget, your actions will be an example of how they learn as well.

The aggression gene can be limited in how it is expressed. The more an environment brings out that trait, the more that gene will be expressed. Keeping a stable home environment is crucial as well. Nurture affects certain genes, as well as food and health.

Sorry for the long post, but this should be taught to your husband also.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Mr. Fisty, these are very good advise and very relevant to my situation. Are you a professional counselor?


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Wanda--

Does your husband feel regretful after the angry outbursts? I always did.

If he does, maybe the following would help him.

1. Focus on those situations where you have to get it under control, where blowing up is not an option. Apply that same standard to your personal relationships.

2. Learn to observe yourself getting angry. It is an impulse, but you can learn to observe it within yourself. 

3. Once you can get enough distance within your mind between your conscious self and your impulse, you can learn to step outside of the impulsive mindset and take control with your conscious mindset.

This all sounds a bit hoky, but it does work with practice.

If your husband feels out of control and actually wishes he could control himself better, the above may help him with practice.

He can look at the anger as an impulsive behavior that he does unconsciously like biting his fingernails or any other bad habit.

Looking at it this way may lessen the shame and help make it realistic to him to address it.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Mr. Fisty and Anon - the thing is I can not imagine myself suggesting those to him. I would have to be very political about it. And he is aware of those techniques and methods. He does seem control those more aggressive outburst, those that are highly visible and obvious. Although I know that they will come out back once I have a differnt opionion on something important to him,, or won't do what he wants me to do. 
What I am afraid he will never stop is those short, snappy answer, when the words are very polite, but cut like ice. Those I think hurt most, today I am all deflated becausee of conversation like this over the phone. In moments like this my answer to my own question is that good sex just extends the misery. in days like this I do feel like there is no real intimacy left, but sex and focusing our efforts on work and kids just hide it.

As in regards to IC for him - the problem is too find someone whose opinion he will respect and value. He is very intelligent, highly educated and narcistic man (by his own admission) - most of the counselors would fall below his measures. He thinks he knows more of them, and has no respect for people he would consider less intelligent. He tried couple years ago and was pissed off after few months, I do think he did not like what he was hearing....
I am working on getting Ic for myself through skype, with someone who is not from this area.


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## Mr.Fisty (Nov 4, 2014)

Well, the probability of him changing is slim. Some people are proud of their narcissism, and what you can realistically do is really nothing to change him. You will be more changed by him, and so will your children.

You will have to decide what you value more, your mental health, or prolonging the marriage.

Keep in mind, your children will need at least one healthy parent in the picture. Leaving the toxic environment will increase the probability of them turning out healthier.

If he treats you with no respect, your own thoughts have little to no value, what will make your children see any value in your words and thoughts either.

You made a bad choice in a mate, but you did not have the tools to recognize the problems prior to the marriage.

I know you do not have the strength to take action now, but for your children and your own sake, gather it before more damage can be done to everyone.

Inaction does not delay the problem, the problem just continues while you become a bystander as you watch those around you become negatively affected.

There are books on how to deal with narcissist, but you have children as well to consider.

Your given a tough situation to handle and it has become your job to handle.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> Mr. Fisty and Anon - the thing is I can not imagine myself suggesting those to him. I would have to be very political about it. And he is aware of those techniques and methods. He does seem control those more aggressive outburst, those that are highly visible and obvious. Although I know that they will come out back once I have a differnt opionion on something important to him,, or won't do what he wants me to do.
> What I am afraid he will never stop is those short, snappy answer, when the words are very polite, but cut like ice. Those I think hurt most, today I am all deflated becausee of conversation like this over the phone. In moments like this my answer to my own question is that good sex just extends the misery. in days like this I do feel like there is no real intimacy left, but sex and focusing our efforts on work and kids just hide it.
> 
> As in regards to IC for him - the problem is too find someone whose opinion he will respect and value. He is very intelligent, highly educated and narcistic man (by his own admission) - most of the counselors would fall below his measures. He thinks he knows more of them, and has no respect for people he would consider less intelligent. He tried couple years ago and was pissed off after few months, I do think he did not like what he was hearing....
> I am working on getting Ic for myself through skype, with someone who is not from this area.


That is too bad.

I could probably be described with some of the same words you used to describe your husband.

Ultimately, it is a very lonely place to be when you convince yourself you have all of the answers.

My belief is that people who are truly confident don't need to attack others. When you feel good about your own perspective, the perspective of others who disagree with you is not so threatening.

I wonder if you and your husband ever have moments when he realizes he has gone too far and feels contrite.

That might be the opportunity for you to suggest that he try to look within himself a bit more to understand why this behavior continues.

Given his personality, he may be able to take great personal satisfaction in learning to master himself. He does not necessarily need a therapist to help him do it.

If you get a moment like this, you could just ask him to read a book on mindfulness just to see if he is even willing to invest that much energy in addressing the problem. Reading one book is not a major commitment.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Mr.Fisty said:


> Well, the probability of him changing is slim. Some people are proud of their narcissism, and what you can realistically do is really nothing to change him. You will be more changed by him, and so will your children.
> 
> You will have to decide what you value more, your mental health, or prolonging the marriage.
> 
> ...


This is very hard to accept for me at the moment - the fact that he might get to toxic for our children. He can be very affectionate and supportive father, and kids are having great time with him. Although he does start showing signs of getting impatient wiht them, when he is in bad mood. This is soemthing I have to think about more.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> That is too bad.
> 
> I could probably be described with some of the same words you used to describe your husband.
> 
> ...


Yes, he does Anon. He will apologize and be sorry. he used to pull the cute card, "O, me poo grizzly bear", but recently I made him to stop it. What makes me sad, that he does try, he is much better with those angry outburst, but I still do walk on eggshells. Because they make come back. But also because he can be snarky in just regular plain conversation, just killing every positive felling htat might be growing in me. 
It starts feeling now, after several TAM threads, few months of working on our marriage, that we can improve it on the outside. Making better for kids's sake. but the connection will never be there. I will never trust him fully. The spark is not there. There are too many things that bother me about him , mostly coming from his disrespect to others with different view.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

Does he know you feel this way?

Would the knowledge that you are slipping away be enough to motivate him if you could find a way to tell him calmly (so it is not perceived by him as an attack)?


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## CuddleBug (Nov 26, 2012)

WandaJ said:


> Inspired by my own experience and several threads lately on TAM I started wondering about the role of sex in trouble marriages.
> 
> Does good healthy sex life help trouble marriage or just extends the misery, creates an illusion that things are getting better, or may be better?
> 
> ...



You have to find out what your main love language is first. Mine is Physical rating 12.

I do have a high adventurous sex drive.

Sex to me, bonds me to Mrs.CuddleBug more than any talking or just doing things with her will ever do. Sex relaxes me, I unwind and unstress. I feel like I can take on the world.

When the sex isn't really there, that's when we start doing our own things alone. We start becoming friendly room mates more than anything and not husband and wife.

Sex gets me through those tough days and times in my life like nothing else. Cuddling up to Mrs.CuddleBug, holding hands, snuggling all warm skin to skin, sex, knowing she is right there, makes me feel like a man and completes me.

Take away the sex and the marriage is more a friend with benefits and room mate and then the fighting over stupid little things starts.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

anon, he knows how they make me feel. He often does not even realizes that he is doing it, while he is doing it. sometimes later - depending on situation. He does have good insight AFTER the situation, and has no issue with apologizing. 

What I really think is that deep down he resents me for asking him not to behave certain way. I think it makes him feel frustrated, that he is not allowed to show his frustration. At one point, in the heat of argument he told me that I would be happiest "if I cut his balls off" . I guess this is what he needs to do to feel like a man.

I think I am coming for the second time to realization, that I am done, emotionally with him. The first time was back in December when divorce talk happened. I did not believe that my feelings would change. But we tried, he tried and I felt them coming back, which surprised me greatly. But then I started slowly closing from him again. 

Now I am just realizing that even with him trying and improving on so many levels, it may not be enough anymore, which is very sad.
Time will tell.


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## Anon1111 (May 29, 2013)

OK, one more point. 

If he has the ability to reflect on things afterward, then he also has the ability to reflect on things BEFORE they happen.

In other words, it is not that he doesn't accept the behavior is wrong (which is good), it is just a TIMING issue of when he is able to realize it.

This is solveable for him and he himself personally would probably feel happier if he could solve it. He probably just thinks he can't and thinks "this is just me."

BUT the fact that he can reflect on it later shows that the "it's just me" belief is an oversimplification. It is only a PART of him. He does not need to let that PART of him ruin the good parts of him.

Unfortunately, this is a realization he needs to come to himself.

But if he is smart and narcisstic as you say, maybe you can appeal to his vanity in some way.

Bring up this topic as an intellectual conversation, not as "here is your problem, you need to change". 

You could play dumb (if you think that would work for you). I heard this on Oprah... one of my girlfriends mentioned this idea that the more I think of it sounds kind of interesting . . . wonder what you think about this sort of thing.

Maybe it's not worth it to you at this point, which is also totally valid.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Anon1111 said:


> OK, one more point.
> 
> If he has the ability to reflect on things afterward, then he also has the ability to reflect on things BEFORE they happen.
> 
> ...


This just made realize (not the first time, lol) how dysfunctional we are. After the initial talk of divorce, and trying to clear things afterwards, we now again trying to avoid the hard talk. I do realize we should. I have Love Busters questionnaires printed for each of us, and I cannot make myself to talk to him about it. He still hasn;t read the book, after four months since I gave it to him. I think we both are avoiding the real talks, maybe too afraid what eventually they will uncover?


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## OLDERMARRIEDCOUPLE (Mar 13, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> I've only ever had sustained good sex in my current marriage, so sample of one relationship...but for us it is just plain good, solid sexual chemistry. It really never fades. It is effortless. Even if we don't have time or are in the mood for actual sex, the desire for each other is always present. Our touches and kisses always reflect it. I've never had a "friendly" kiss from him, only romantic or passionate ones. Even a peck has a zing to it between us!
> 
> We also do have a troubled marriage. Our troubles are separate from the sex and it isn't affected, other than to say that we have sex less often if we are fighting.
> 
> ...


This was so well stated.


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## Alrighty then (Apr 29, 2015)

I am super motivated to work on anything with a very high level of motivation when the sex is there and resent the hell out of working on things when it is not. 

I got married because I loved sex with my wife, wanted to continue that to the end of time and signed up to take care of her for the rest of her life as the fair exchange. 

I wont do that if I don't get my due.


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## Tulanian (Feb 23, 2013)

I think in some ways sex can be a barometer of the state of things. If you have a serious rift between you, odds are good that you'l be having less sex or no sex at all, or the sex won't feel fulfilling because the connection isn't there like it should be. If you're able to continue relating sexually, it could and I DO mean could indicate that you have more in your favor as a couple than you suppose. It's not a merely physical act, not when you're in an actual relationship. It ties into all of the other ways that you communicate, all of the ways that you're connected.

I left my marriage after two years of no sex. We were dealing with a lot of heavy stuff, including the stress of getting our son a diagnosis for autism, and she shut off completely in that respect. One time I tried to initiate and she told me to go hire a prostitute. The death of our sex life wasn't the core issue but it showed just how badly things were broken.

The saddest part is she's the last person I've been with, not because I haven't been with others since the split but because we slept together again last year. She asked, I said yes. It damned near broke my heart, being back in that place. Two days later she told me she'd slept with someone else since the split (which didn't make me mad, as I've done the same...okay, lizard-brain part of me is mad but I know that's irrational)...then she filed to finalize the divorce.


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## autopilot (Mar 16, 2012)

WandaJ,

I don't log onto here often (mainly to read the selected posts from their monthly newsletter). This is sort of a stale thread, but I'd like to give you my thoughts on it from my personal experience. Sorry, but this going to be a long post.

Is a good sex life in a troubled marriage helpful or harmful? In my experience, it was both.

I'm in my second marriage and basically the wheels fell off nearly immediately after marriage. Long story, short, was that I filed for divorce within 4 months after we married because things were so bad...except for the sex. We were (and still are) incredibly attracted to each other. Why my wife is today I cannot fathom for what I put her through those first couple of years. Even after I filed for divorce, we couldn't keep our hands off each other and that was the only thing that saved our marriage and kept us talking and working on the real issues at hand.

Could we have saved a lot of misery and possibly gone on to separate happier lives had we not had the sex? Most likely, yes, because we inflicted some serious emotional scars while we were working on resolving the innate problems in our marriage (which were basically differing parenting styles with our blended children, constant meddling and legal issues with both our ex-spouses who each were in their own second marriages, etc, etc, etc). But, we slogged through those VERY difficult years and stayed emotionally connected when times were at their worst with the sex.

We attend a Christian church regularly and are part of a blended family class there. It's meant as a complement when stated, but fairly often in class someone will point out that if "Cam and Lorrie can make it, anybody can make it."

Now to address what I see as concerns you've mentioned in your marriage and what I'd recommend that you do about them.

First, you have spent many years invested in this relationship. So, you really need to think long and hard about how good or bad that relationship has been and what the prospects for it going forward. If you've invested most (if not all) of your emotional energy to improving your relationship in those years and it has only gotten worse and not better, the likelihood of it getting better in the future is quite remote. Are you willing to continue with the status quo or the likelihood of a poorer relationship for the next however many years? Again, this was me in my first marriage. I'd put everything that I knew how into it and just didn't have anything left to give. The future did not look good and I finally pulled the plug on it after almost 20 years of marriage. It was the best thing for both of us (in hindsight) because we had become so toxic for each other. She's happier, I'm happier and our kids are happier as a result.

Second, you need to evaluate the impact of your relationship on your children. If your relationship is toxic, it will also be toxic to your children. That's the hardest part to wrap your head around (at least it was for me). I thought that if I broke up the marriage that it would also break the children. But, kids are much more resilient than adults and (while there were many bumps along the way) they rebounded well.

Third, you need to understand the basic issue of a narcissist. They use an air of superiority to mask their real issue which is lack of self-esteem and self-worth. They put others down in order to elevate themselves (in their own estimation). It most often manifests itself from their own childhood and very rarely can be overcome. They need to feel important and the center of attention. They achieve the self-centeredness through angry outbursts, manipulation, emotional blackmail, and other acts which make them appear to be the victim of some sort (and often-times you are made to feel the aggressor). They are generally bitter and can never feel true happiness or contentment (they are most happy at the expense of others). The bottom line is that they are self-centered and incredibly selfish. I was unfortunately married to one just like that and always was afraid of when the next proverbial "shoe would fall" and felt like I was "walking on eggshells" trying not to upset her. It was an awful existence.

Fourth, your spouse will feel remorse whenever he feels that you've been pushed too far. But, the remorse is often short-lived and appears hollow and somewhat caddy (because it generally is). The narcissist cannot feel remorse for very long without becoming a victim of the problem themselves. That's the vicious cycle that they live within and bring you along for the ride.

Fifth, back to the kids. A narcissistic personality can have devastating effects on children of all ages. I'm sure that your spouse is a loving father. But, those awful traits will manifest themselves in your kids. You can only do so much to dilute those effects. My two children have both struggled with those issues in their now young adult lives. I can only imagine how poorly capable they would have become if exposed constantly to those examples their entire childhoods. Not that my ex isn't a good mother (or your spouse a good father), but they use the children to glorify themselves. Sports, school events, church activities, you name it, they push the kids to excel at the expense of the kids (who likely will not even like whatever it is they are pushed to do). But, it's not about the kids, really, but about them and their feeling of superiority through your own children. They will go to great length to keep the kids from failure. They never understand that failure can be a very good thing and something that must be experienced in order to succeed in life. If left too long the effect will be that the kids feel entitled and look down on others just like the parent. They won't experience failure and will always blame others when they do. Mine went through that and I spent several years reprogramming them to understand that they were not entitled or any better than anyone else, and that they must accept responsibility for their own failings and actions.

Lastly, you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink. The same can be said for you and your spouse. He's got to make some major changes without your insistence. If forced, he'll only feel resentment and resist. That doesn't mean that you quit talking about the issues. But, you can't force him (or make him feel forced) to deal with those issues. You've got to decide whether to accept his resistance to change or move on without him. You cannot beat yourself up if he is unwilling to make the substantive changes that you need from the relationship.

I said at the outset that this would be long. There's much more that I'd like to say, but you sort of get my drift.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

autopilot said:


> WandaJ,
> 
> 
> First, you have spent many years invested in this relationship. So, you really need to think long and hard about how good or bad that relationship has been and what the prospects for it going forward. If you've invested most (if not all) of your emotional energy to improving your relationship in those years and it has only gotten worse and not better, the likelihood of it getting better in the future is quite remote. Are you willing to continue with the status quo or the likelihood of a poorer relationship for the next however many years? Again, this was me in my first marriage. I'd put everything that I knew how into it and just didn't have anything left to give. The future did not look good and I finally pulled the plug on it after almost 20 years of marriage. It was the best thing for both of us (in hindsight) because we had become so toxic for each other. She's happier, I'm happier and our kids are happier as a result.
> ...


autopilot, thank you for posting this, I really appreciate your input. It is VERY relevant in my situation. walking on eggshells, feeling guilty, children. I can see myself steering more and more towards that final solution. The remorse are short lived, and demanding. The habits are still there and will be there. The snarkiness, demands, need for control, moodiness. 

BTW - things have deteriorated since I posted last here. Things were going too nicely between us, so he just had to screw it by few nasty comments, situation, and finally angry outburst just week ago. So now, from sex 2-3 a week, we are on an almost month long dry spell. I guess that answers my thread question too.


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## Angela Goodnight (Dec 27, 2013)

I have the most wonderful marriage and sex is a huge part of it still, even in our sixties.

However, I also had an abusive marriage in which the sex was fine until he discovered that it was my fault that I wasn't getting pregnant. We never did find out why nor did I ever have a child with future partners.

The sex started to become more 'baby-making' than 'loving fun' then gradually became cold-hearted f***ing. I blogged about it myself and the awful sequence of events ending in him raping me is on my true-storytime website if anyone interested.

I still don't know if better sex would have saved the marriage, but once it became cruel and then violent the marriage was over and I should have left earlier than I did.

Turning your back on sex when a marriage becomes difficult, however, is, I am fairly sure, the route to disaster.

Good luck,

Angela Goodnight


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## NWKindaguy (Sep 2, 2011)

I am going on 11 months with no sexual activity at all. Everyone's situation is different, ones awesome sex is someone else's misery. Why do I stay? retirement funds comingled. I have adjusted mostly. I cant say that I would not have a affair if the opportunity arose. We get along and rarely touch one another. We would make good opposite sex roommates, I don't expect anything


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## Kristisha (Apr 29, 2013)

Our marriage it's not perfect and we have our fights and a lot of things that we don't agree upon but the sex makes it all,solvable, reasonable and unimportant .

In the first 2-3 years of our marriage it was like we were talking in different languages and we our communication was poor and when we were communicating , we were fighting about anything ( apart from sex) .

But we had a rule that we have even today, and that one was ,no matter how upset or angry at one another we will not take it to our bedroom. And it worked wonders. Or if we have a big fight we will end it with sex.

I can get past almost anything if sex is good.


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## Sutherland (Feb 21, 2014)

I'm a woman. Sex is distracting but I feel that we need some positive nonverbal communication to soften up towards each other. It's easier to put things into perspective and compromise on both sides. Sex is also deliciously healthy. 
Unfortunately, it's been 15 months since we've had any-his choice not mine. I know when we were having sex, we definitely accomplished more, spoke nicer, etc.
I suppose it depends on your ultimate goal. Sex can help you stay together but maybe you want to leave the relationship.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

To give some update, sex has been gone now about seven weeks. He made few disrespectful comments, had one full blown agner fit, and that's it. Righ tnow we are roommates with kids


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## Fatboy123 (Feb 17, 2015)

Hi Wanda

Thank you for starting this difficult and very personal thread.

I am a father of 3 boys (6, 3.5 and 1....) and long story short, I may potentially be a narcissist myself.....working on it with counseling for the last months....

It's been some time now that I have been seriously examining ending our marriage, for many many reasons, including the one that is hurting my wife the most, ie, not getting what she probably deserves.
I consider myself a good father, always present, caring and supportive with my kids but lately I can't concentrate easily on this task either.....

To the contrary of the initial discussion of this thread, which I think developped in a another more serious conversation, our sex life has always been very bad and lately inexistent for more than a year with one exception a few months ago, while i thought i wanted to make her feel more accepted....that obviously didn't work out since there's been no follow through.....

I was just wondering, in case you would be willing to spare a few minutes, if you managed to get through to your husband or not since your last post, as it could potentially bring some more light into these difficult interactions and give me some more insight...

In any case I hope you are on the right path to a better situation whatever that may be

take care
O.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Fatboy123 said:


> Hi Wanda
> 
> Thank you for starting this difficult and very personal thread.
> 
> ...


We are in MC now, after I said that this is it. He got into panic mode and organized the next day. It does help in a sense that he finally got it, the damage his words and curses and yelling was doing to me, to us. But it might be too late. I am having hard time checking back in. We are still trying. I am also starting to face the fact, that he will not be able to give me what I need. He still prefers to hide behind jokes instead of having real conversation. Not always, but it discourages me from starting one, and talking about my needs, leaving me feeling lonely.
So, maybe we will save marriage for sake of kids, but I won't be fully happy in this relationshisp. Unless thins changes, it is still early in the process. I wish we did MC after the D word came up for the first time. There was still fire in there, now it is lukewarm.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

I heard a discussion on Oxytocin and its uses this weekend from a medical doctor.

This is also called the love or cuddle hormone by some.

There are some interesting medical uses for this human hormone. One is to help induce or speed up labor during delivery of a baby, as it helps with uterine contractions.

Another interesting use is treating Post Traumatic Stress Disorder as the "love or cuddle or trust" hormone has a way of blocking or at least making negative thoughts much harder to maintain and form.

Ocytocin is produced during orgasms and nipple stimulation. According to what the doctor said, it can also be produced in small quantities by stomach extension, like from after over eating. 

One of the side "benefits" of elevated oxytocin levels in a woman is that she is more likely to be multi-orgasmic. Similarly, for a man, if he has elevated oxytocin levels his orgasmic contractions are much stronger (sort of correlates with the uterine contractions function during labor.....and yes men through nipple stimulation can produce oxytocin.)

So to the original question that this thread has long ago left...can a good sex life in a troubled marriage help? 

I would say that if the goal is to retain the marriage, then yes, a good sex life and elevated oxytocin and other feel good sex hormones would reduce negative feelings toward a spouse, produce stronger or multiple orgasms, which would release more oxytocin and help create a chemical bonding situation between the partners. 

The reduced negative feelings/thoughts toward the other partner and the positive bonding feelings between the two would make "hard changes" easier to try to implement.

Good luck!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> According to what the doctor said, it can also be produced in small quantities by stomach extension, like from after over eating.


This is interesting. I have noted before a few times that when feeling overly stuffed after a meal, I also felt some kind of amorous feelings. Something like being horny but not quite, more lovey.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

Faithful Wife said:


> This is interesting. I have noted before a few times that when feeling overly stuffed after a meal, I also felt some kind of amorous feelings. Something like being horny but not quite, more lovey.


Interesting. Since you are in tune with your body, you might work with your spouse on mutual nipple stimulation for an extended period of time to see if that makes your sex better. 

I know that when I provide my W with extended nipple stimulation during foreplay she usually is multi-orgasmic. When my nipples have been stimulated prior to intercourse, my orgasms are memorable. Listening to the doctor discuss oxytocin this past weekend was one of those "light bulb" moments where the light comes on and some things became much clearer.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

@WandaJ


Some really bad advice to help cheer you up!...

Halloween is just around the corner, so go buy some fake blood packets. Pour them on your husband's underwear while he is asleep, and when he wakes up in the morning in a mess and starts freaking out, he will be in the perfect disposition for you two to start having some serious heart to heart conversations.

While this is too much information, I was once wearing some old headphones one night and the soft black coating on the foam earmuffs must have torn off a big piece onto my hand. Somehow that material ended up on my penis the next morning (can't reveal what I was up to the night before), I went to the bathroom and it look like the side of my weener was dying and about to fall off. My heart sank so much that I had to sit on the floor as I started freaking out, then a few minutes later I observed it close enough to find out it was just a piece of materials that had broken off my headphones and I found the strength to continue living. For the rest of the day I was a very spiritual person after going through that experience and focused on how important things are in life that I had been taking for granted. It was as if my whole life flashed before my eyes! 

Cheers, 
Badsanta.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

I would use the ole Dr. John behavior tracking chart. Track your husbands attitude and behavior towards you over a month or the and see if he's improving or regressing. You can add your own emotional responses too. This could even be a journal. 

I don't know what transpired between you two but unless it was very bad or very lengthy or there's a fundamental rift between the two of you probably you can work on it if you so desire.

Lukewarm is not an optimistic term. Is it feasible to work on things more "intensely"??? Towards a fish or cut bait scenario?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

john117 said:


> Lukewarm is not an optimistic term. Is it feasible to work on things more "intensely"??? Towards a fish or cut bait scenario?


The lukewarm part is me. It might be that it is too late now for me to check back in this marriage. But we are still trying, stakes are high.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> The lukewarm part is me. It might be that it is too late now for me to check back in this marriage. But we are still trying, stakes are high.



It's never too late if past behaviors do not reoccur and the root causes have been addressed. Heck, even I think it's possible in my case . Likely, no. Possible...

That's why it is paramount to track issues and discuss on a weekly basis.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

sometims it is too late. I am not saying it is for me, but at this moment it's very hard. Once your feelings are gone, it is hard to bring them back.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> sometims it is too late. I am not saying it is for me, but at this moment it's very hard. Once your feelings are gone, it is hard to bring them back.


Look deep inside and perhaps you will find the ability to forgive!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

It is not about forgiveness at this point. Something shut down in me after the last time, after the twenty years of "last times". We'll see. There is no rush for divorce at this moment at least.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

For some of us, having spent so much time and energy building walls between ourselves and our spouses, we cannot bear to think about the time and energy that would be required to tear down the wall.

For some of us, it is like those Japanese soldiers left behind on Pacific Islands after WWII. They could not be convinced to come out of their caves. They thought it was an Allied trick, and feared that as soon as they came out of the cave they would be shot.

There is no enticing us by saying "but it is cold and dark in the cave, and there is so little space in there, and the food is old and tasteless, please come out into the sunshine and live a more expansive life". If I believe I am going to be shot dead as soon as I exit the cave, then I am not coming out no matter how bad it is in the cave.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> It is not about forgiveness at this point. Something shut down in me after the last time, after the twenty years of "last times". We'll see. There is no rush for divorce at this moment at least.


Badsanta checking his list of things to help diagnose your issue:

Willingness to try = check
Forgiveness = check
Horndoggedness = luke warm
Issues with Vulnerability = (skip over this for now)
Patience = check
Good BBQ = might suggest
MC = check
Certified faith healer = (remind myself to order my certificate) 
Good BBQ = sounding good
Good values = check
Husband addicted to porn = N/A
Wife addicted to pinterest = probably!
Communication issues = Husband jokes instead of talking
Fertility issues = kids!, not a problem
Health issues = previous mention of good sex life suggests all OK.

...Badsanta thinking....
...Badsanta scratching his butt...
...Badsanta thinking...
...Badsanta reaching conclusion of new suggestion...

@WandaJ I suggest you try the following link 

https://www.pinterest.com/explore/barbecue/

Thank me later! For now this should solve everything and bring your whole family back together into a fun loving group of party animals!


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

@badsanta! pretty good list. Besides pinterest. I visited it three times total maybe, looking for porn art pictures.

Sometimes all the logic says yes, but heart does not listen...


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> For some of us, having spent so much time and energy building walls between ourselves and our spouses, we cannot bear to think about the time and energy that would be required to tear down the wall.
> 
> For some of us, it is like those Japanese soldiers left behind on Pacific Islands after WWII. They could not be convinced to come out of their caves. They thought it was an Allied trick, and feared that as soon as they came out of the cave they would be shot.
> 
> There is no enticing us by saying "but it is cold and dark in the cave, and there is so little space in there, and the food is old and tasteless, please come out into the sunshine and live a more expansive life". If I believe I am going to be shot dead as soon as I exit the cave, then I am not coming out no matter how bad it is in the cave.


Yes, Holdingontoit, that's perfect metaphor, my brother in arms!


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Allowing yourself to be vulnerable and trusting someone with your naked self will break through almost any wall and greatly improve intimacy.

Fear is both a safety mechanism and a barrier.

You can have relative safety in a cave or a risky, vibrant life outside.

Maybe there is a monster waiting to pounce outside the cave. I'll be damned if I will let it keep me prisoner!

This life is short and painful. I will find all the joy I can. Even if I experience pain. It will be in the sun and I will be unchained.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

I will find some joy, it's not like I am sitting here crying, all miserable. I just have to accept that that kind of marriage I would like is not happening, and will not happen. Not all my needs will be met, but many will, and that's good enough to keep my kids happy and save with both parents. 
That's the plan for now at least. How will it go, we'll see.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Young at Heart said:


> Ocytocin is produced during orgasms and nipple stimulation.
> 
> One of the side "benefits" of elevated oxytocin levels in a woman is that she is more likely to be multi-orgasmic. Similarly, for a man, if he has elevated oxytocin levels his orgasmic contractions are much stronger (sort of correlates with the uterine contractions function during labor.....and yes men through nipple stimulation can produce oxytocin.)


Am I the only person on TAM who has spent the past 24 hours continuously stimulating their nipples?


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Am I the only person on TAM who has spent the past 24 hours continuously stimulating their nipples?


Maybe the only one who will admit it! LOL 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Holdingontoit said:


> Am I the only person on TAM who has spent the past 24 hours continuously stimulating their nipples?


Dude, you do know they have machines and EVEN door hangers for internet users like us!


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> I will find some joy, it's not like I am sitting here crying, all miserable. I just have to accept that that kind of marriage I would like is not happening, and will not happen. Not all my needs will be met, but many will, and that's good enough to keep my kids happy and save with both parents.
> That's the plan for now at least. How will it go, we'll see.


Wish you happiness!


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

ConanHub said:


> Maybe there is a monster waiting to pounce outside the cave. I'll be damned if I will let it keep me prisoner!
> 
> This life is short and painful. I will find all the joy I can. Even if I experience pain. It will be in the sun and I will be unchained.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I will be held prisoner by my fear. As you say, life is short and painful. I will learn to revel in the pain.


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## hospitality (Feb 24, 2014)

It's a clinical fact that certain chemicals are released from our brains when we have sex. The levels are even higher when couples first meet because they are having even more orgasmic sex. However, I'm a huge believer in the five love languages. My love languages are physical touch/verbal affirmation. My wife's love language is mostly quality time. My wife rarely if ever gives me any kind of verbal affirmation or physical touch outside of the bedroom. So when sex is missing I have this huge hole inside myself because sex is where I get the physical touch and verbal affirmation that I crave. My wife is more fulfilled even if sex is missing because she loves quality time spent with me so sex is just a bonus act and really doesn't affect her global view of the relationship. 

I've discussed this topic at length with lots of couples and it seems like men and women are who are physical touch/verbal affirmation place a much greater emphasis on sex as the barometer of their relationship. Whereas men and women with other love languages place a greater emphasis on other aspects of the relationship. So if OP's love language is not physical touch/verbal affirmation the problems in her relationship won't be masked by the sex the way sex could mask issues in my relationship or she might actually resent sex because her true love language isn't being met?


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Fear is both a safety mechanism and a barrier.
> 
> 
> This life is short and painful. I will find all the joy I can. Even if I experience pain. It will be in the sun and I will be unchained.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not sure if this is fear that keeps me from engaging. It is more of something being lost. I am trying to find it but still can not. 

And you, Mr. ConanHub, would never be in my position, because you would have either fix this marriage right at the beginning or if that would not work, you would have left. I failed that part of the assignment.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

OK, I have a new assignment for you @WandaJ 

Tell us here at TAM both what you want and how/when you have tried to convey this to your husband? For instance if you want to have serious conversations with him, but he is always joking, does this occur during an argument or at just any arbitrary point of the day.

What I am getting at is that perhaps us guys can put ourselves in your husband's shoes, because all our wives nag us about stuff in an indirect/roundabout way that for many years we just did not get the message. Our minds are simple, usually only have one track, so sometimes if you try to tell us something while we are busy or preoccupied we never stop and change gears to really process something that may have just been said. 

Here is how things can be perceived by a man, and my wife does this to me ALL THE TIME! She will fuss at me that I do not listen and that she has important things to tell me. So I will bring my day to a complete stop and put all my focus on her, only to hear crickets chirping. I am then like, "OK you have my attention, what is it you need to talk about?" Then she will look at me even more frustrated and say, "you just don't get it! I don't mean right now, I am talking in general!" So there I am trying to listen to her because she told me to be serious, but the ONLY thing she had to say was just in general to be serious and listen more often. To a man, this comes across as sounding a fire alarm, having a fire truck show up, there is no fire, and then the firemen get fussed at that they should always be more present in the neighborhood for when there is a fire.

It would be much better if my wife would practice ways to get my undivided attention FIRST and then make sure she has something important to say and that I have a pen and paper ready in case it involves scheduling changes or a list of things I need to remember. I'm a bit dyslexic, so even when I am listening, I can not remember schedule changes to save my life.

Sincerely, 
Badsanta


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> I am not sure if this is fear that keeps me from engaging. It is more of something being lost. I am trying to find it but still can not.
> 
> And you, Mr. ConanHub, would never be in my position, because you would have either fix this marriage right at the beginning or if that would not work, you would have left. I failed that part of the assignment.


I have failed many times. Maybe not exactly in the same way others have but I am far from perfect.

I just don't view failure as permanent or a state of being.

I won't live there or even stay there very long. I view failure as something to turn from and learn from and overcome.

You are correct about my attitude about my marriage and problems but I started out far less competent and far more prone to make bad decisions and sit on them than I am now.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

badsanta said:


> It would be much better if my wife would practice ways to get my undivided attention FIRST and then make sure she has something important to say and that I have a pen and paper ready in case it involves scheduling changes or a list of things I need to remember. I'm a bit dyslexic, so even when I am listening, I can not remember schedule changes to save my life.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Badsanta


Nope, that's not issue. It is actually him who is trying to get my attention when I am in the middle of hurricane. Many things in my marriage are oposite of "normal" 
I am talking about sliding into joke/sarcasm mode during seriours conversation , or instead of such. It is avoidance. We had very stormy MC session about it last night. He could not understand why he is "not allowed" to make jokes, why they would upset me so much. (there was specific situation we were analyzing and overanalyzing)


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> Nope, that's not issue. It is actually him who is trying to get my attention when I am in the middle of hurricane. Many things in my marriage are oposite of "normal"
> I am talking about sliding into joke/sarcasm mode during seriours conversation , or instead of such. It is avoidance. We had very stormy MC session about it last night. He could not understand why he is "not allowed" to make jokes, why they would upset me so much. (there was specific situation we were analyzing and overanalyzing)


Usually an underlying issue brewing beneath the surface is that of *acceptance*. It may be likely that when your husband was younger that perhaps he used his sense of humor to fit in and gain acceptance among his friends. Think of how fraternity brothers cut up and make jokes about very serious topics as a way to both bond with each other and cope with struggles in life. If this type of behavior is the case with your husband, perhaps being light hearted and playful about serious topics is his MO when it comes to something he has problems coping with and ultimately still wants to get acceptance from you. While it sounds as if this type of thing could be a conflict in how your personalities interact, keep in mind that if you tell him he can't joke that it may come across as you rejecting his most valuable personality trait and making him feel like a failure (which may queue him to try and joke even more to cope).

Now I am not defending him, just offering some insight as to WHY he may joke when you need him to be serious. 

I remember growing up and my dad would always make stupid jokes when I needed to discuss something serious and it would annoy the ever living freaking crap out of me. At the time he came across like an ass, but looking back he probably just wanted extra attention and to try and make me laugh as a way to bond. 

Transitioning from a heated conversation to making jokes is perhaps an art form that almost takes a spark of magic to really make it happen, or otherwise one just comes off as a jerk. My wife and I had scheduled some quality time this morning and I got onto her about setting her emails aside. She redirected some of her work frustrations at me and holy sh!t the house erupted into a huge fight. I got so mad, but at the same time I knew we just needed to laugh about it, so I went and did the dishes during our lunch break and told her that I was washing them out of pure anger and hatred! She agreed it was an act of extreme passive aggression. (I really was pissed off) I told her she better calm down and get in a better mood because I was fu¢king running out of dishes to wash, then like magic we were both laughing our asses off and were able to let it go. 

Perhaps I need to school your husband on how to combine anger, irony, and awkwardness so that at least while the two of you are arguing that sh!t in the house is actually getting done until he can get you to break a smile!










Then my wife agreed that cleaning angry was helpful and that she would do it more often!










Then about eight orgasms later, the mood in the house has been awesome. 

So we are back at square one, that good sex can indeed fix a lot of things! 

Badsanta


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

You're funny, @badsanta But our problems run much deeper. Right now it's about figuring it out if this has any chance of survival. I am pretty much checked out.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

WandaJ said:


> You're funny, @badsanta But our problems run much deeper. Right now it's about figuring it out if this has any chance of survival. I am pretty much checked out.



To paraphrase the Paducah BMW Mini John Deere dealership sales guy, "Wanda dear, what would it take to get you and Mr. Wanda to ride off into the sunset together again?"

If you've checked out you've checked out. Period.


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## Lean David (Sep 18, 2015)

The absence of sex is worse than its presence. However, it does not mean that sex can save your marriage, especially when there are a lot of problems. Sooner or later, this allusion becomes apparent to both partners.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

john117 said:


> To paraphrase the Paducah BMW Mini John Deere dealership sales guy, "Wanda dear, what would it take to get you and Mr. Wanda to ride off into the sunset together again?"
> 
> *If you've checked out you've checked out. Period.*


I'll add this to the conversation. If you have indeed *checked out*, then it can be more harmful to try holding on as opposed to letting go so that each of you can move on. 

Hang on for five, perhaps ten more years only to find you are still in the same place, that could be five or ten years that you or your husbands remaining youth that both of you find someone else to get married to and be happy OR find you do better in life just being on your on and enjoying your kids as you spend time with them. 

Badsanta


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

Lean David said:


> The absence of sex is worse than its presence. However, it does not mean that sex can save your marriage, especially when there are a lot of problems. Sooner or later, this allusion becomes apparent to both partners.


Yes, that's what happened in our case. at one point s...t hit the fan


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> It is actually him who is trying to get my attention when I am in the middle of hurricane.


This comment was irking me Wanda... If you go about your day in the middle of a hurricane (I've lived in Florida before), you and your husband should be working as a team to prevent damages to your relationship, or did he not ever buy the proverbial steel shutters that are so fun to bolt up all over the house? I hated those things, as it made the house feel like a bunker. 





WandaJ said:


> We had *very stormy* MC session about it last night.


At least someone cares, or they would not even get upset anymore. 


Badsanta


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

@badsanta, @john117,

I am still hoping that things will change for me. we are going to MC, going for dates afterwards. But it is harder than I thought for me. I wish we did it back in December, when after D conversation we went through honey moon phase. When that crashed, it is much harder now to hope again. But kids are still young, that's why I am still in here trying. I do not want to push my unhappiness on my kids. I need to know I did everything I could to salvage it.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

badsanta said:


> steel shutters that are so fun to bolt up all over the house? I hated those things, as it made the house feel like a bunker.


Steel shutters are out Now the fabric ones are in favor, light, easier to put on, and still letting the light in


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

the fact that there is anger means there are still feelings. Something to at least build on, I hope. Once one of you is at apathy, it is likely over.


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## WandaJ (Aug 5, 2014)

naiveonedave said:


> the fact that there is anger means there are still feelings. Something to at least build on, I hope. Once one of you is at apathy, it is likely over.


Yes, there are feelings on his side. What I am trying to figure out, if I can still find them on my side, that's the issue here.


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## brooklynAnn (Jun 29, 2015)

Great sex can masked a whole bunch of issues. But it better than, no sex when you are trying to make things work. It's something to hang on to but you have to realize that it will not solve your problems. I think you are aware of that. (I have been reading your posts) 

I know you are trying your best to hold on for the kids sake but how are you doing over all? Do you think you guys are making progress?


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Is lemonade ever better without sugar? Nobody longs for a refreshing glass of lemon juice.


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## naiveonedave (Jan 9, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> Yes, there are feelings on his side. What I am trying to figure out, if I can still find them on my side, that's the issue here.


just went back through the thread. Does your H have any idea the damage he causes by being sarcastic and making jokes when you are dead serious? Seems like he is oblivious to how his actions impact you.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

WandaJ said:


> Steel shutters are out Now the fabric ones are in favor, light, easier to put on, and still letting the light in


Yes, I am sure those are the ones that are produced from some random company in *Nebraska*! Right next door to the the only insurance company that will still offer Floridians a home owners policy. You know, because they have so much experience with hurricanes! 

At least that was the joke in the Miami office when I worked there and this was a real graphic (probably still is!).


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