# Is this it?



## katiecrna

Many of you know my story. I've been unhappy for a few years in my marriage. We're both very busy so I thought it could be situational. My husband has passive aggressive personality which is unbeknown to him. I am unhappy bc of how he treats me and speaks to be which I know is because he is PA. He doesn't understand my hurt at all, he doesn't see him behavior as wrong, he is delusional and he says he loves me. 

As a last stitch effort I told him I want to read a book about passive aggressive behavior. I basically want him to understand what he doesn't realize he is doing and possible change or at least acknowledge it. Well we didn't make it past the introduction...

His mother was PA and his father was strict, stubborn and domineering. So his mother did things behind her husbands back because she knew he would get mad or wouldn't let her do it. So she constantly told my husband as a child... don't tell daddy. You know how daddy is... what he doesn't know won't hurt him. And she would do what she wanted like buy expensive clothes or expensive haircuts etc. so my husband and I were talking about this. I told him that I completely understand why she did it. I get it. BUT it's the wrong thing to do. My husband disagrees with me. And we discussed it quit a bit and he is firm on his stance and I on mine. He thinks there is nothing wrong with what she did/does. And I told him I don't understand how a married Christian man can even say that it's ok to lie and deceive your spouse and take the lesser path of resistance to get what you want. It blows my mind. I understand why she did it. Maybe I would of done that too who knows. When dealing with domineering people you learn strategies and coping mechanisms to keep the peace while getting what you want. I get it 100% BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN THATS RIGHT. 

I don't know if I can stay married to him. I believe in honesty, a honest honorable marriage. My husband btw has bought a car not that long ago after I told him not too because it was higher than the set amount we set. So what his mother does... he does. He feels entitled to a car bc he "works hard" and he is going to get it regardless of what I say. Just like his mother felt entitled to nice clothes and haircuts bc she works hard and she's going to get it regardless of what her husband says. 

Am I crazy? I told my husband I don't know if I can get past this. Because him believing this means not only will he never change but he will never fully understand the hurt he causes me


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## Rockclimber

I can relate to this a lot, as a man my mother was the exact same way and I probably was myself for a couple years to my wife. I don't have a lot of advice for you I only have advice for him. He must realize on his own... something that you cannot do. It sounds like you have been upfront and honest with him about your unhappiness something that my wife is upfront and honest with me about as well. It took me several years to reach bottom and seek my own help, hopefully he will seek relationship help on his own but like I said that's not something you can force on him he will have to hit rock bottom to do that himself. You will get a lot of really great advice in here, listen to pretty much everything that you read hear. Good luck and I'll be following this thread.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## katiecrna

This relationship is exhausting. I am the only adult. He locked himself away in the spare bedroom being the victim and child he always is. It's tough. I don't want it to be like this but he acts so immature.


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## 225985

Katie,

Most of your threads were about trying to change your husband's behavior. You should know that you cannot change someone else. 

How many threads have you started?

You are a top notch quality woman. You deserve to be happy. You won't find happiness with him.


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## Mr.Fisty

katiecrna said:


> This relationship is exhausting. I am the only adult. He locked himself away in the spare bedroom being the victim and child he always is. It's tough. I don't want it to be like this but he acts so immature.



You know you are dealing with a PA person so why expect more. If you want catalyst for change you may have to leave himm before you lose all feelings. People make the mistake of leaving when they are burn out and their ex changes but it is too late. When he acts like a child, walk away. Don't re-engage until he seeks counseling. Just stay detached, and separate for now. I personally do not know why you expect more when you know what you are dealing with. I would not try convincing a narcissist that they are nothing special because I know it is pointless. You are only hurting yourself against a PA wall. Do you understand? You expecting more is illogical on your part. So help yourself because for some reason, you are hurting yourself in staying around him. That means you have not yet suffered enough.

Pretend he is 13 but in adult form and stop seeing him as an adult. Mental age does not always match physical age.


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## Emerging Buddhist

katiecrna said:


> This relationship is exhausting. I am the only adult. He locked himself away in the spare bedroom being the victim and child he always is. It's tough. I don't want it to be like this but he acts so immature.


You don't mean literally "locked the door", do you?

I'd say he is feeling pretty alone right now in your relationship as well...

blueinbr is right... you will not change him without him wanting to change himself.

Now what? What will you do to accept this is how it is and strengthen the things you can control?

ps. we are all a little crazy, but being able to talk about those feelings allow us that acceptance that we all feel kinship in the challenges we face. That you are being shut out will be a hard thing to overcome if he can never let you in.


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## 225985

katiecrna said:


> This relationship is exhausting. I am the only adult. He locked himself away in the spare bedroom being the victim and child he always is. It's tough. I don't want it to be like this but he acts so immature.




Please let us know what city he practices in so that i make sure he is never my doctor.


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## katiecrna

We are all a little crazy. But those who don't admit their crazy or realize their crazy are the craziest of all. 

I feel like I'm at a stand still. I know that I'm torturing myself and waiting for him to change. It's just so hard to give up on the 10+ years we have been together, and give up the life I wanted to have with him. This is not where I want to be. Early 30s and starting over.


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## 225985

katiecrna said:


> We are all a little crazy. But those who don't admit their crazy or realize their crazy are the craziest of all.
> 
> I feel like I'm at a stand still. I know that I'm torturing myself and waiting for him to change. It's just so hard to give up on the 10+ years we have been together, and give up the life I wanted to have with him. This is not where I want to be. Early 30s and starting over.




It's better than early 40s and starting over.

I am 50 and starting over at 40 doesn't sound bad at all. At 30? I would not hesitate one second.

Forget the past. If you knew this was to be your life, would you marry him today?


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## katiecrna

blueinbr said:


> It's better than early 40s and starting over.
> 
> I am 50 and starting over at 40 doesn't sound bad at all. At 30? I would not hesitate one second.
> 
> Forget the past. If you knew this was to be your life, would you marry him today?




I don't know. I was so in love with him and we were so happy in the beginning of our marriage. I would do anything to go back to those times. Now we are both so different. The hurt and resentment has built up and all the issues we ignored in the beginning are getting worse. The busyness of our life, neglecting our marriage, not treating it like the priority it is. We did not give it the TLC that we should have. If I were to do things over I think I would marry him again and just take more care of the marriage. I'm a sucker I know...


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## farsidejunky

Even if that were a reality, would your care of the marriage be enough?

He has to pull himself from the victim chair long enough to be able to work together with you.

Have you ever read the Karpman Drama Triangle, Katie? If not, Google it. It will be telling.


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## turnera

PA is one of the ONLY things that is so incredibly hard to change. It truly IS part of who they are. Every thought, every sentence, every reaction gets filtered through their PA lens.

IME, the only way to get people like that to change is for them to lose the one thing they want most. Hopefully that's you. IIWY, I would move out. Tell him that when he's ready to go to therapy with you, you will; until then, you're moving on with your life.


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## katiecrna

Moving out is impossible right now. We share a bank account and right now I'm not working because I'm in full time school. I'm graduating soon and will be getting a job but right now moving out isnt feasible.


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## 225985

One thing to do is to STOP trying to change him or save the marriage. 

ACT like you will be leaving. Stop treating him like a husband. Treat him like a roommate (which i think you already are.)

You will find that liberating. 

FSJ is right. A do over would still end the same way. It takes two. Stop thinking you didn't do the right things. 

Most people are happy when they marry. Most people overlook the faults of their spouse the first few years. Then we see them for the way they really are and really always have been.


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## 225985

How are the rabbit(s)?


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## katiecrna

blueinbr said:


> How are the rabbit(s)?




My 1 rabbit is the only thing I look forward to coming home to. So she's perfect


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## 225985

katiecrna said:


> My 1 rabbit is the only thing I look forward to coming home to. So she's perfect




When i was little my brother wanted two rabbits. He got them. The pet store assured my mother they were the same sex. 

Guess what happened. Rabbits everywhere. 



Their droppings though did make good fertilizer for our garden.


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## Rockclimber

If you truly love him like it sounds like then start doing your own independent counseling ASAP. when he sees that you are moving on and becoming a better person yourself it might be the spark in him to start his own counseling or to start working on his behavior. I am in investing and work exclusively with doctors. I can tell you one thing, they are so brilliant in medicine that many times they will lack basic communication or relationship skills, that is not their fault that is simply the way their brain is wired. Also an extremely large number of doctors are passive aggressive. Changing a doctor's behavior can be very very very difficult.

With that said some of the best spouses and fathers I have ever come across in my entire life have been doctors. Don't give up hope, work on yourself go to Counseling and maybe he will be one of those doctors that is the best husband and father you could ever wish for.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## turnera

katiecrna said:


> Moving out is impossible right now. We share a bank account and right now I'm not working because I'm in full time school. I'm graduating soon and will be getting a job but right now moving out isnt feasible.


bullshyte. I've seen women take their kids and move away from husbands who provided everything - those women went to shelters who provided them with training, legal support, housing, and more - and went on to take care of their families.

How soon are you graduating? If you're talking about spring 2017, by all means stay. If you're talking about longer than that, it's just excuses.


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## 225985

Are you already a crna or is that what the schooling is for?


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## turnera

You can also get help from all kinds of agencies. But I think we've discussed this before. You have to do what works for you. I just hope you don't let fear of the unknown keep you where you're not happy.


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## katiecrna

Ok so he has been sleeping in the spare the last couple days. We haven't really spoke bc we're. It's extra busy these days. I told him I was considering a divorce blah blah blah. He says that he loves me, and that he wishes I liked him and that the problem is I don't like his opinions (aka it's fine to lie to get what I want basically). I told him I want to try therapy or else I want a divorce. He says therapy won't help bc when he gives his opinion I just don't like it. This is such bull****. Sorry u have crappy opinions.


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## 225985

Is it true? You don't like his opinions?


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## john117

Who's paying for your school now? As much as I find his behavior lacking, if he's footing the CRNA bill orca substantial part thereof, that changes the dynamic a bit in my view. 

Having said this, if he's refusing professional intervention, it's not a viable relationship longer term.


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## 225985

john117 said:


> Who's paying for your school now? As much as I find his behavior lacking, if he's footing the CRNA bill orca substantial part thereof, that changes the dynamic a bit in my view.
> 
> Having said this, if he's refusing professional intervention, it's not a viable relationship longer term.




It is more appropriate to look at who was paying over the entire marriage. Who paid when he was in medical school?

If she paid the first few years, him paying now is less relevant.


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## katiecrna

I feel like he purposely says ****ty things that he knows makes me mad and than acts like oh well you dont like my opinions. Like I said in my original post the problem we got into was when he told me that he doesn't see anything wrong with not telling your spouse that your going to buy something if you know they aren't going to let you do it. So he's saying it's ok to go behind hoe spouses back and do what you want basically. Like come on.... who actually believes that's ok? Of course I don't like his opinion. 
He is not verbally supportive and when I need someone on my side to just comfort me and make me feel better he isn't. He will literally tell me the other persons perspective on why they did that and defend their behavior and I'm like I need u on my side for once. And he's like well you don't like my opinions... he's twisting everything to make it seem like he's the victim as usual. 

I have literally texted him... hey I had a rough day, I really really need you to give me some love and support when I come home. Like I have to ask him for it, and he ends up "disagreeing" with me and not supporting me and he's like well you don't like my opinions. He's a ****. I honestly think he loves to disagree with everything I say out of spite, he rebuttles everything I say, even when it's like a fact.


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## arbitrator

*Have you suggested MC, or has he already ruled that out?*
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## katiecrna

I've suggested it in the past and he just said he's too busy. Now I am saying divorce or therapy and he's trying to talk his way out of that. He is anti therapy.


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## katiecrna

I say it's a communication issue. He disagrees, he says that if I love him I will accept him for who he is and this is who he is. I disagree with that bc he has changed how he treats me. We use to be very happily married.


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## 3Xnocharm

katiecrna said:


> I feel like he purposely says ****ty things that he knows makes me mad and than acts like oh well you dont like my opinions. Like I said in my original post the problem we got into was when he told me that he doesn't see anything wrong with not telling your spouse that your going to buy something if you know they aren't going to let you do it. So he's saying it's ok to go behind hoe spouses back and do what you want basically. Like come on.... who actually believes that's ok? Of course I don't like his opinion.
> He is not verbally supportive and when I need someone on my side to just comfort me and make me feel better he isn't. He will literally tell me the other persons perspective on why they did that and defend their behavior and I'm like I need u on my side for once. And he's like well you don't like my opinions... he's twisting everything to make it seem like he's the victim as usual.
> 
> I have literally texted him... hey I had a rough day, I really really need you to give me some love and support when I come home. Like I have to ask him for it, and he ends up "disagreeing" with me and not supporting me and he's like well you don't like my opinions. He's a ****. I honestly think he loves to disagree with everything I say out of spite, he rebuttles everything I say, even when it's like a fact.


Having been married to a PA, I can tell you this....he isn't going to change. You might figure out some way to tolerate existing with him, but he will never change. What you have mentioned here about him thinking that deception to get your way is ok, is completely against most normal people's moral code. You will never be able to trust him, and you will never agree with him that this is ok. (because its not!) 

Finish your degree and get out. Living with this only gets harder and worse over time.


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## 225985

katiecrna said:


> I've suggested it in the past and he just said he's too busy. Now I am saying divorce or therapy and he's trying to talk his way out of that. He is anti therapy.




Are you bluffing?


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## katiecrna

blueinbr said:


> Are you bluffing?




I hope not


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## 225985

katiecrna said:


> I say it's a communication issue. He disagrees, he says that if I love him I will accept him for who he is and this is who he is. I disagree with that bc he has changed how he treats me. We use to be very happily married.




Did he really change or are your eyes just open now to the real him?


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## katiecrna

blueinbr said:


> Did he really change or are your eyes just open now to the real him?




He changed. 100%. Residency has F*cked him up. And than add on all our fights that haven't been resolved (bc he is PA and his communication sucks and we literally haven't resolved 1 fight ever), so the unresolved fighting plus he's over worked, and sleep deprived equals resentment that has been building. Now here we are.


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## 3Xnocharm

katiecrna said:


> I say it's a communication issue. He disagrees, he says that if I love him I will accept him for who he is and this is who he is. I disagree with that bc he has changed how he treats me. We use to be very happily married.


Katie, the man I married was NOT the husband that I ended up with... had I known that husband, I would not have married that man. His true colors came out slowly, and I was like that proverbial frog in the pot of water on the stove... I didn't realize exactly what was happening until it was too late, and I was boiling alive. By then I was living with a negative, self centered, hypercritical ogre. 

One of his favorite things was the silent treatment...do you ever get that from your H?


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## katiecrna

We dated for 10 years. We had a happy marriage for like 2.5 years. It's a combination of things.... his lack of communication, our inability to resolve fights, his work schedule, us not spending time together bc fights weren't resolved ect. Now his resentment is so high he disagrees with me on everything on purpose.


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## katiecrna

3Xnocharm said:


> Katie, the man I married was NOT the husband that I ended up with... had I known that husband, I would not have married that man. His true colors came out slowly, and I was like that proverbial frog in the pot of water on the stove... I didn't realize exactly what was happening until it was too late, and I was boiling alive. By then I was living with a negative, self centered, hypercritical ogre.
> 
> 
> 
> One of his favorite things was the silent treatment...do you ever get that from your H?




Never. I get a man who never apologizes, is always the victim even when I'm mad. If I am mad bc he does something he gets mad at Me for getting mad at him. He's a child.


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## turnera

Then it's time to move on. Your honeymoon period is long over; it will only get worse.


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## 3Xnocharm

katiecrna said:


> Never. I get a man who never apologizes, is always the victim even when I'm mad. If I am mad bc he does something he gets mad at Me for getting mad at him. He's a child.


Mine never apologized either. EVER. He would give the silent treatment for 3 or 4 days, then decide its time to start talking to me again, never ever said he was sorry, and just moved on like nothing had happened. Usually the silent treatment came about because he would get upset about something and all it would take would be me not agreeing with him, and he would basically stand there and fight himself into a tizzy, silent treatment to follow. I am not one to argue much so he pretty much did all this to himself. He could take any mundane comment and turn it into a personal attack or insult against him. I never could understand that, especially since I was never nasty or insulting. (really I was WAY too good to him, considering how he treated me...not sure why!) 

And yes, that whole scenario you state here, too, about getting mad that you got mad. Wtf.


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## farsidejunky

katiecrna said:


> I've suggested it in the past and he just said he's too busy. Now I am saying divorce or therapy and he's trying to talk his way out of that. He is anti therapy.


It only works if you allow it.


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## jb02157

My marriage is this way to. We discuss things, she wants to do and buy things that are too expensive for our budget. I explain if you buy that, it means we can't do or pay for other things that we agreed are obligations and she just buys it anyway behind my back and I find out about it later when the credit card statement comes. Why the hell bother to talk about it? Just because she thinks it's ok doesn't make it right. She says she thinks she deserves the item bought but we couldn't afford it. Then I have to make a decision as to which bill doesn't get paid that month. It's no way to live and I feel your pain.


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## 225985

3Xnocharm said:


> Mine never apologized either. EVER. He would give the silent treatment for 3 or 4 days, then decide its time to start talking to me again, never ever said he was sorry, and just moved on like nothing had happened. Usually the silent treatment came about because he would get upset about something and all it would take would be me not agreeing with him, and he would basically stand there and fight himself into a tizzy, silent treatment to follow. I am not one to argue much so he pretty much did all this to himself. He could take any mundane comment and turn it into a personal attack or insult against him. I never could understand that, especially since I was never nasty or insulting. (really I was WAY too good to him, considering how he treated me...not sure why!)
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, that whole scenario you state here, too, about getting mad that you got mad. Wtf.




Sounds like my wife.


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## katiecrna

@jb02157 my husband exactly. He has entitlement issues. He feels like he deserves it because he works so hard. I'm like things don't work that way, lots of people work hard but you shouldn't buy things you can't afford or sneak behind people's back and do it.


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## jb02157

katiecrna said:


> @jb02157 my husband exactly. He has entitlement issues. He feels like he deserves it because he works so hard. I'm like things don't work that way, lots of people work hard but you shouldn't buy things you can't afford or sneak behind people's back and do it.


Sorry that you have to deal with this. I think my wife has entitlement issues to. She thinks that somehow she's owed a certain type of lifestyle that I would never be able to provide even if I wanted to. There's so many things about her that she kept hidden until after we were married. Had I known about them there's no way we would have gotten married to her. It's like a marital bait and switch.


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## Rockclimber

This sounds like a typical American marriage, it is nothing so big that you cannot fix it with therapy, time and patience. Humans are designed to evolve when nature forces us to do so. Your husband is sleep deprived, exhausted and cranky, he has no motivation to change for the better. I would recommend working on yourself first and then seeing if he comes around in time. If you do eventually file for divorce you will be better off as a person because you started working on your problems today. Focus on what you can change (Hint, you can't change your husband, you can only change yourself). You might be surprised to see him change for the better once he sees you change yourself.


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## 225985

Rockclimber said:


> This sounds like a typical American marriage, it is nothing so big that you cannot fix it with therapy, time and patience. Humans are designed to evolve when nature forces us to do so. Your husband is sleep deprived, exhausted and cranky, he has no motivation to change for the better. I would recommend working on yourself first and then seeing if he comes around in time. If you do eventually file for divorce you will be better off as a person because you started working on your problems today. Focus on what you can change (Hint, you can't change your husband, you can only change yourself). You might be surprised to see him change for the better once he sees you change yourself.




Yes, you can force a square peg in a round hole. If you beat on it repeatedly and hard. But then why would you want it afterwards when you can get a peg that fits exactly?


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## Grapes

sounds alot like my wife too. never apologizes, takes just about anything and everything so personally that speaking up seemed a futile task. Then the silent treatment then the act like everything is perfect. The act like everything is perfect always blows my mind.


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## SunCMars

Grapes said:


> sounds alot like my wife too. never apologizes, takes just about anything and everything so personally that speaking up seemed a futile task. Then the silent treatment then the act like everything is perfect. The act like *everything is perfect always blows my mind*.


This reminds me of a Cuckoo Clock that I bought in the Black Forest in Deutschland.

This clock was rather expensive. I bought while on deployment in that great country.

The clock is beautiful, it has characters that pop out and twirl and then go back inside. We keep it dusted and polished

In the summer we would open the window in the room that the clock is kept in.

Over the years, the clock kept losing time. This would require me to shorten the pendulum swing to compensate for this "loss".

After a while, I decided enough is enough, I removed the mechanism. Loo and behold I found a fur ball mess.

Our persian cat would sleep under this clock [on a tall cabinet] and bat at the pendulum. When it was windy outside, it would waft up her fur and it went into the bottom of the clock?? This is only a guess.

I think, also that when the characters did their dance and spin above the cat, she swatted at them, bringing more fur into the clock?? 

Your wife, Grape looks great on the outside, does her duties like clockwork and spins a good image. 

On the inside her gears are turning and creaking. The gears are full of fur and hair balls. You will never know what time zone she is in. She does not know either.

When this happens it is time re-wind her clock, set her pendulum and leave the room. Do this before the clock alarms and the little dancers show up, spinning the truth and spoiling the party.


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## 225985

katiecrna said:


> He is not verbally supportive and when I need someone on my side to just comfort me and make me feel better he isn't. He will literally tell me the other persons perspective on why they did that and defend their behavior and I'm like I need u on my side for once.
> 
> I have literally texted him... hey I had a rough day, I really really need you to give me some love and support when I come home.


I think that is more of a guy thing, not limited to your H. I am just like your H on this topic. Guys like to fix. Women like to vent and talk for emotional support. 

If W had a hard day, I try to fix it. She just wants me to say "Poor W, let me give you a kiss." Then listen. And during the long long long talk I just want to kill myself to get away from the agony of listening.


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## 225985

katiecrna said:


> I hope not


You can only play that card once. If you don't follow through he won't ever believe you if you say it again.


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## Emerging Buddhist

Nice story @SunCMars... I really enjoy them.
@katiecrna... detachment is an art and often an act that becomes a way of life for those who believe in impermanence. The more you want (desire) something (thing/action/outcome/feeling), the more it pulls on you and agonizes the mind, body, spirit, self in it's affair.

Worrying yourself into frustration is becoming an action of futility... you need a clear mind for your next action and you cannot do that while attached. You need to let go a little... take a step back so you can breathe and evaluate where you really need to be. 

This isn't a hateful withdraw full of resentment and coldness... it is what we in the military called a "high speed delay" although I am extracting the emotional advantages of it out of the tactical. 

Use it to gain time, reposition yourself with minimum emotional exposure, use your energy elsewhere, and align yourself with more friendly thoughts that support your emotional health.

In the end... release yourself from this while there is still love there, because if you wait until the resentment is more than it sounds now, you will lose part of yourself that you can ill afford to.

Think about keeping your hands off his responsibilities... if he doesn't notice you are absent, you have more clarity to that which you seek.

Thinking and wishing you the patience and peace you need...


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## SunCMars

blueinbr said:


> *I think that is more of a guy thing*, not limited to your H. I am just like your H on this topic. Guys like to fix. Women like to vent and talk for emotional support.
> 
> If W had a hard day, I try to fix it. She just wants me to say "Poor W, let me give you a kiss." Then listen. And during the long long long talk I just want to kill myself to get away from the agony of listening.


Wow, is this true.

Ladies, memorize this. *It is a guys thing. We try to put things in perspective. We explain to our wives NOT to take everything so personal...not to internalize so much.*

Of course, that is not what the ladies want. *So it is up to men "to get it"*. Give them what they want....... your ear, and your sympathy. Oh, and do not patronize them. They can read you like a dime store novel! God help us!


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## katiecrna

Men and women are different. It's important to understand what is "normal" to men and what's "normal" to women, however, you need to be or at least try to be what your spouse needs. If your wife wants you to sit there and listen and just give sympathy why do anything else?


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## ReturntoZero

katiecrna said:


> Men and women are different. It's important to understand what is "normal" to men and what's "normal" to women, however, you need to be or at least try to be what your spouse needs. If your wife wants you to sit there and listen and just give sympathy why do anything else?


What is your role in this?


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## katiecrna

I use to be the best wife. You can even ask my husband. But when my needs weren't being met time after time of me telling my husband for years.... I decided I'm going to give the same effort my husband gave.


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## 225985

katiecrna said:


> I use to be the best wife. You can even ask my husband. But when my needs weren't being met time after time of me telling my husband for years.... I decided I'm going to give the same effort my husband gave.




So how many more years will you go with your needs not being met?


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## Síocháin

@katiecrna, I am triggering....hard. Especially about the explaining another person's perspective and taking their side. My STBXH was drinking one night and butt dialed me. There was another person talking about me and it wasn't nice. And he laughed with them about it. And of course when I confronted, he said he didn't recall that...a$$hole. Any time they can throw you UNDER the bus to make themselves look good, they will. And that is pretty much all the time. Like your H, my STBXH never had my back. I can't remember even one time.

This is your life now Katie, you either deal with it or get out. It won't get any better. You moved your line in the sand because you are still there. He broke his word and bought the car. So, he knows he can do whatever he wants to do & you will take it. He is not self-aware and it doesn't sound like he wants to be nor does he care. Why should he, as far as he is concerned, YOU have the problem. You need to forget about MC and get IC for yourself or you're going to be me in another 20 years. I'm so codependent now even I can't believe how far I fell. My heart breaks for you because what you're going through now will only get worse.


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## 3Xnocharm

Síocháin said:


> @katiecrna, I am triggering....hard. Especially about the explaining another person's perspective and taking their side. My STBXH was drinking one night and butt dialed me. There was another person talking about me and it wasn't nice. And he laughed with them about it. And of course when I confronted, he said he didn't recall that...a$$hole. Any time they can throw you UNDER the bus to make themselves look good, they will. And that is pretty much all the time. Like your H, my STBXH never had my back. I can't remember even one time.


Omg, I have a similar butt dial story! Well...I think actually we had talked, and his phone didnt hang up, so I listened to my ex talk to his coworker. Ex was pissed off at me over something he made up in his head, as he was prone to do. Co-worker asked if he got me and my daughter anything for Valentine's day coming up....he said "fvck them! If I hadnt already ordered her flowers, I wouldnt be doing a fvcking thing for her!" There were a couple other things said, but that is what is burned into my brain. I was SO HURT. And SO PISSED. I was pissed when the flowers showed up at my work, and didnt mention them til he asked about them. What hurt so much was that I hadnt done a damn thing to him for him to be all pissed the way he had been, and for him to say that about us to a co-worker? That was beyond a low blow. Its hard to remember the exact timeline, but I am pretty sure that it was only a couple months later that I had my SNAP moment.


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## katiecrna

I'm done. In 3 weeks I'm done with school and I'm going to move in with my parents. What steps do I take next? What about our shared bank account?


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## farsidejunky

Consult an attorney. 

There are too many nuances that vary from state to state to advise to that level of detail.


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## 3Xnocharm

Open your own bank account. Do you plan to let him know in advance that you are leaving? If so, move half of what is in any account you share into your own. If you arent going to let him know, then wait until immediately after you leave, so he isnt tipped off. Try to make copies of important documents like loans, etc. Consult an attorney. I filed for divorce before I even left. Its good that you can go to your parents, because then you dont have to search for places to rent and all the headaches that go with that process. 

How are you feeling about your decision?


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## Emerging Buddhist

farsidejunky said:


> Consult an attorney.
> 
> There are too many nuances that vary from state to state to advise to that level of detail.


This first... then open the bank account and follow your attorney's advice.

Finish school with your mind in the right focus... be respectful, give him the space and tend to your own responsibilities right now leaving him to deal with his.... own nothing there that you do not bring.

You need calm... and a lot of it, your decision will tell you in itself if this is the right one. If you find yourself breathing a little easier, fewer frustrations, easing into an inner-peace that seemed absent... you are probably on the right path.

If you are still struggling for a calm that seems evasive even after your decision to go a different path, then you may should look deeper into self for the cause.

Your answers will rise to the surface either way...


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## katiecrna

I can't stop loosing my temper because talking to him makes me go crazy. I want this marriage to work but he is driving me crazy. I am working on finding a apartment so I can get away and heal. 
This is déjà vu. I remember when I found my mom walking down the street crying and I pulled over to talk to her and she said... you don't understand he degrades me (my dad), I am either going to kill my self or kill him. And she walked to the hospital to check herself in.


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## katiecrna

I go between strong and weak. Angry and sad. I'm done to I want to work it out. I'm exhausted.


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## MrsAldi

katiecrna said:


> I can't stop loosing my temper because talking to him makes me go crazy. I want this marriage to work but he is driving me crazy. I am working on finding a apartment so I can get away and heal.


How is he behaving? Still in denial? 



> This is déjà vu. I remember when I found my mom walking down the street crying and I pulled over to talk to her and she said... you don't understand he degrades me (my dad), I am either going to kill my self or kill him. And she walked to the hospital to check herself in.


I'm very sorry to hear that. 
Your husband doesn't seem to respect your opinions, it's no wonder you feel the same way as your Mom did. 



Sent from my B1-730HD using Tapatalk


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## 225985

When are you finished with schooling?


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## katiecrna

I understand where he's coming from. He works really hard and is very stressed out and he is just getting frustrated because in his opinion I'm holding onto a grudge and not letting go. He just wants to come home to a happy wife. I get it. But the truth is I am hurt and I can't let go. In my opinion just saying I'm sorry isn't enough to rectify A wrong. 
He's frustrated and I'm frustrated. He tries to prove his point by down playing what he did, and saying we are both responsible for the downfall of our marriage. I take this as him not taking responsibility, and not respecting my feelings. I get my Both sides but it crushes me bc he is saying there is nothing more he can do right now (bc he's so busy). He basically just wants me to get over it and be happy but I can't bc I'm not over it bc he hasn't rectified anything. And his inpatient attitude is preventing me from letting go also.


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## katiecrna

I get his side. But he doesn't understand mine. He just thinks Bc things happened a year ago i should be over it. He's insensitive . And he doesn't get that time doesn't heal anything if you continue to be insensitive about it. 

I am going to seek individual therapy. I am seeing things in me that remind me of my mom and I don't like it. My mom can hold a grudge for a lifetime and I don't want to be like that. But at the same time I don't want to be a doormat and I need to be respected. 
It's just that he is not perfect and is insensitive and I am not perfect and I'm extra sensitive and super emotional. I have been known to be self righteous, "too perfect" that no one will ever be good enough, and basically just tough in men. And yes I have a high expectation for men and that's something that i just believe in, (I'm Christian and I believe men should be a certain way, head of the house, moral leaders blah blah blah). I am guilty of seeing everyone else's fault especially my husbands and not my own. Or rather I see my own, but I harp on his. 
I am Christian and I want my marriage to work. I am just trying to find the balance between letting the small stuff go and not being manipulated and emotionally abused. And I think I just need to stop giving him the power to hurt me. Because really... I'm a grown women, why am I letting a sinner man who isn't perfect make me feel like ****? I should be stronger than that. I need to stop being so weak and vulnerable and just realize who I am, and be confident in that and realize that everyone on this earth will hurt me in one way or another and it's bc everyone is sinned and messed up. I'm sure I have hurt my fair share of people too. Ok I'm rambling, i am just having lots of thoughts lol


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## SunCMars

katiecrna said:


> So his mother did things behind her husbands back because she knew he would get mad or wouldn't let her do it. So she constantly told my husband as a child... don't tell daddy. You know how daddy is... what he doesn't know won't hurt him. And she would do what she wanted like buy expensive clothes or expensive haircuts etc. so my husband and I were talking about this. I told him that* I completely understand why she did it. I get it. BUT it's the wrong thing to do. My husband disagrees with me.
> *
> I believe in honesty, a honest honorable marriage. *My husband btw has bought a car not that long ago after I told him not too because it was higher than the set amount we set.
> *
> Am I crazy? I told my husband I don't know if I can get past this. Because him believing this means not only will he never change but he will never fully understand the hurt he causes me


Let me come at this from another perspective. I am not wealthy but always have had enough money to spend.

If my wife wanted an expensive car, wanted to have weekly haircuts, I would gladly let her spend the money. I would work a second job or overtime to keep her happy.

Why? Love. I put no price on love. Luckily, she is happy with a mid-priced Cadillac and not a Mercedes.

You sound controlling. You talk with your husband and THINK you come up with an agreement, but *it is on YOUR TERMS*. He nods his head or grunts, "OK, Dear". Then does what he wants...needs.

*He is disobeying you. Shame on him*. You must be one of the fixed signs...Taurus, Leo, Scorpio. May not be your Sun sign...but it comes out...of your mouth and demeanor.

When he does not obey, you read him the riot act. Life is not all about you.

This is a compatibility problem. *You two are not meant for each other.* Stop taking everything so personal.

Oh, I know, he does many things wrong....*now*. He has given up. He is brow beaten and sullen. You broke him. He is not made of strong metal...mettle. He is brittle and his edges crumble when bumped.


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## 225985

He wants to come home to a happy wife. That is about what HE wants. Nowhere in that is he showing he is concerned about you being happy.


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## 225985

What happened a year ago? His infidelity with the coworker?


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## katiecrna

blueinbr said:


> What happened a year ago? His infidelity with the coworker?




No it's nothing major just a bunch of small stuff that happened over a short period of time that was never resolved. 

He went to a conference, started drinking with a women, started flirting and according to him she kissed him and he walked away. He kept this from me for a few weeks and decided to tell me one night while I was studying for a final the following day. He said he was sorry and I dropped it. 
After this I have been noticing that he is clutching to his phone and never goes without it. One time I grabbed it to check the time and he flipped out. Like went nuts and grabbed it and ripped it from me. I said is there something hour hiding? And he just goes nuts saying no blah blah blah and all I said was he was acting like someone who has something to hide. A month later the car thing happened. And he didn't apologize right away. It took a huge blow up fight and me crying and explaining how what he did was wrong than he gave me a sub par "I'm sorry" and that's it. All this time, he is super sketchy with his phone and his where abouts. One time he told me he was home studying, I got a weird feeling and I said really your home? And he paused... and said no he was actually at duncin donuts getting coffee. It was a weird lie but I said ok I'll be home I'm 10 mins. I walk in after a 13hr day of work to him on his phone, making coffee at home and no DD coffee is site. I was too exhausted to even deal with his weird lies that I just went right up stairs, told him I was tired and I didn't want to hear his excuse. (Which was that DD was too busy so he decided to come home. Really? Busy at 7pm on a weekday?) that night he did was he usually does... he punishes me by sleeping in the spare bedroom. All this time nothing gets resolved, and he is sketchy with his phone. Then Christmas happened. His parents were up. Christmas morning I see he gets a text from a girl, his phone is in his hands. I look at it, and go to grab it as I said who is this? And he rips it away from me, quickly runs away from me and deletes every single text message from his phone. Everyone. I was like what the **** is that about? And I was upset and started crying. His excuse was, it was a PA he works with and she sent a group text out to everyone saying marry Christmas. I asked why freak out and rip the phone from me and delete everything? He said he didn't know. 
As time went by, I've expressed to him how I dont really trust him and I don't feel safe in this marriage. I've asked him to get find my friends a few times and he refuses even though I've cried and begged. He said he has nothing to hide but it's the principle. His sketchiness continues, his white lies continue. It's just a lot of weirdness that shouldn't be in the marriage I don't know how to explain it. He is gone every single weekend because of an "emergent case". Yesterday (Saturday) he had an emergent case that took 6-7hrs to do. The day before I asked him to get find my friends and he reused. We got into a fight about it and what do you know the next day he's gone all day with an emergent case. Today (Sunday), again an emergent case. He had been gone all morning, it's 1pm and I am writing this and he still isn't home.


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## katiecrna

So he wants me to just trust him and get over the past. But I can't trust him bc there is so much sketchiness that is going on how can I trust him? And his refusal to get find my friends makes me trust him less.


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## katiecrna

So @SunCMars I don't think I am being controlling at all. I think he is living a life completely independent of me and doesn't care if I have hurt feelings or not, he will continue to do what he wants to do. He wants the benefits of being married but none of the responsibilities. He loves coming home to a clean house, laundry done, food on the table, but he doesn't want the "bad" aka a wife with needs and emotions.


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## Emerging Buddhist

katiecrna said:


> No it's nothing major just a bunch of small stuff that happened over a short period of time that was never resolved.
> 
> He went to a conference, started drinking with a women, started flirting and according to him she kissed him and he walked away. He kept this from me for a few weeks and decided to tell me one night while I was studying for a final the following day. He said he was sorry and I dropped it.
> After this I have been noticing that he is clutching to his phone and never goes without it. One time I grabbed it to check the time and he flipped out. Like went nuts and grabbed it and ripped it from me. I said is there something hour hiding? And he just goes nuts saying no blah blah blah and all I said was he was acting like someone who has something to hide. A month later the car thing happened. And he didn't apologize right away. It took a huge blow up fight and me crying and explaining how what he did was wrong than he gave me a sub par "I'm sorry" and that's it. All this time, he is super sketchy with his phone and his where abouts. One time he told me he was home studying, I got a weird feeling and I said really your home? And he paused... and said no he was actually at duncin donuts getting coffee. It was a weird lie but I said ok I'll be home I'm 10 mins. I walk in after a 13hr day of work to him on his phone, making coffee at home and no DD coffee is site. I was too exhausted to even deal with his weird lies that I just went right up stairs, told him I was tired and I didn't want to hear his excuse. (Which was that DD was too busy so he decided to come home. Really? Busy at 7pm on a weekday?) that night he did was he usually does... he punishes me by sleeping in the spare bedroom. All this time nothing gets resolved, and he is sketchy with his phone. Then Christmas happened. His parents were up. Christmas morning I see he gets a text from a girl, his phone is in his hands. I look at it, and go to grab it as I said who is this? And he rips it away from me, quickly runs away from me and deletes every single text message from his phone. Everyone. I was like what the **** is that about? And I was upset and started crying. His excuse was, it was a PA he works with and she sent a group text out to everyone saying marry Christmas. I asked why freak out and rip the phone from me and delete everything? He said he didn't know.
> As time went by, I've expressed to him how I dont really trust him and I don't feel safe in this marriage. I've asked him to get find my friends a few times and he refuses even though I've cried and begged. He said he has nothing to hide but it's the principle. His sketchiness continues, his white lies continue. It's just a lot of weirdness that shouldn't be in the marriage I don't know how to explain it. He is gone every single weekend because of an "emergent case". Yesterday (Saturday) he had an emergent case that took 6-7hrs to do. The day before I asked him to get find my friends and he reused. We got into a fight about it and what do you know the next day he's gone all day with an emergent case. Today (Sunday), again an emergent case. He had been gone all morning, it's 1pm and I am writing this and he still isn't home.


If I hadn't believed leaving that what hurts you in your relationship wasn't enough, this does it.
@SunCMars is right, this is a compatibility problem... his values are clearly not yours.

Self-love is so important... I read your words and wonder why it feels you abandon it.

You are valuable and he is squandering that... frustrating to see all you offer to be discarded.


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## 225985

katiecrna said:


> No it's nothing major just a bunch of small stuff that happened over a short period of time that was never resolved.
> 
> He went to a conference, started drinking with a women, started flirting and according to him she kissed him and he walked away. He kept this from me for a few weeks and decided to tell me one night while I was studying for a final the following day. He said he was sorry and I dropped it.
> After this I have been noticing that he is clutching to his phone and never goes without it. One time I grabbed it to check the time and he flipped out. Like went nuts and grabbed it and ripped it from me. I said is there something hour hiding? And he just goes nuts saying no blah blah blah and all I said was he was acting like someone who has something to hide. A month later the car thing happened. And he didn't apologize right away. It took a huge blow up fight and me crying and explaining how what he did was wrong than he gave me a sub par "I'm sorry" and that's it. All this time, he is super sketchy with his phone and his where abouts. One time he told me he was home studying, I got a weird feeling and I said really your home? And he paused... and said no he was actually at duncin donuts getting coffee. It was a weird lie but I said ok I'll be home I'm 10 mins. I walk in after a 13hr day of work to him on his phone, making coffee at home and no DD coffee is site. I was too exhausted to even deal with his weird lies that I just went right up stairs, told him I was tired and I didn't want to hear his excuse. (Which was that DD was too busy so he decided to come home. Really? Busy at 7pm on a weekday?) that night he did was he usually does... he punishes me by sleeping in the spare bedroom. All this time nothing gets resolved, and he is sketchy with his phone. Then Christmas happened. His parents were up. Christmas morning I see he gets a text from a girl, his phone is in his hands. I look at it, and go to grab it as I said who is this? And he rips it away from me, quickly runs away from me and deletes every single text message from his phone. Everyone. I was like what the **** is that about? And I was upset and started crying. His excuse was, it was a PA he works with and she sent a group text out to everyone saying marry Christmas. I asked why freak out and rip the phone from me and delete everything? He said he didn't know.
> As time went by, I've expressed to him how I dont really trust him and I don't feel safe in this marriage. I've asked him to get find my friends a few times and he refuses even though I've cried and begged. He said he has nothing to hide but it's the principle. His sketchiness continues, his white lies continue. It's just a lot of weirdness that shouldn't be in the marriage I don't know how to explain it. He is gone every single weekend because of an "emergent case". Yesterday (Saturday) he had an emergent case that took 6-7hrs to do. The day before I asked him to get find my friends and he reused. We got into a fight about it and what do you know the next day he's gone all day with an emergent case. Today (Sunday), again an emergent case. He had been gone all morning, it's 1pm and I am writing this and he still isn't home.




Wow. Just wow. 

Katie, I was very specific with my question. I was not asking if he was unfaithful. I asked if you were referring to his infidelity a year ago. 

Reading your posts, i see that you are very smart. But also very naive. Do you realize you just described textbook cheating?


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## katiecrna

Yes I do realize that. But there is no proof.


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## katiecrna

Trust me I look but I can't find. I have his email and there is nothing. I've seen his text messages and there is nothing.


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## Emerging Buddhist

He doesn't seem he wants to give what it takes, his effort is in escape, not repair... I am truly sorry.

You are trying to control something you can't, sometimes we have to let go... it seems he has already.

Please talk to your clergy... being Christian, their guidance will have an important foundation as you seek the counseling you wish.

Then hold your values tight... you are respected for them.


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## 225985

katiecrna said:


> Trust me I look but I can't find. I have his email and there is nothing. I've seen his text messages and there is nothing.



Because we know how to hide it. And we know how to use the delete function. 

You will need gps tracker in his car. Or a voice activated recorder. 

Personally, I wouldn't bother. I am convinced he is cheating. Even if he wasn't, you still have enough to leave him. 

But the cheating explains a whole lot of his behavior. A whole lot. 

You hold down the house while he is a doctor, and while he plays doctor. 

IMO, the ONLY way to get his attention is to file for divorce. After school is finished. Until then, prepare your exit.

The others are right. You have so much going for you. You are a prime catch. Top 5%. 

Knowing that, why do you not love yourself enough to change your life?


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## katiecrna

Bc I love him and I believe we are just going through a tough time. I believe we can overcome this. We have had a great relationship and marriage up until these last 2 years and I think a lot of it is circumstantial. Yea we need to both work on ourselves. If he doesn't want to work on himself or put in effort than of course I will leave. I'm trying to detach myself but it's hard.


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## turnera

You need to write down a list of concrete steps you need from him. Men are dense sometimes. You can say "I need you to work on this" and he'll nod and walk away and say to himself "WTF does that even MEAN? Oh well, I'll just be me. She wanted me once, she'll still want me. Good enough. Ok, who's playing today?"

Give him a list of what you need to see. Specifics.


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## Rockclimber

turnera said:


> You need to write down a list of concrete steps you need from him. Men are dense sometimes. You can say "I need you to work on this" and he'll nod and walk away and say to himself "WTF does that even MEAN? Oh well, I'll just be me. She wanted me once, she'll still want me. Good enough. Ok, who's playing today?"
> 
> Give him a list of what you need to see. Specifics.


+1 it sounds like you want to make this relationship work and I give you credit for that. One thing I have realized over the past month is it is much easier to find someone new and start over, the hard part is making what you have work and I respect you for that. Also if it does not work in the end you will have a much more clear conscience. People who give up easily many times look back a few years later and regret their decision. You will not have many regrets if you follow what @turnera said. I have enjoyed reading this thread, keep us updated!


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## aine

Based on what you have written it sounds like he is cheating or if not he is manipulating you.
Go silent, don't argue with him, just observe and make notes of his activities, the things he says that don't make sense, the discrepancies. Put a Var in his car, if possible get a PI to follow him. Something is up with him. Join a group or club, do charity work, go to the gym, start living your life seperate from him. Do not be available, whenever is suits him.
Start doing the 180 on him. Focus on yourself and your studies so you finish them off sooner than later. Start making plans to leave. I know you love him and want the marriage to work, but he is not going to change. Doing what is intuitively the opposite of what you want to do has more chance of getting him to wake up and see that you are no longer available.
However his behaviour is shady and that is a huge red flag. Do not put him on notice that you suspect anything. Lie low and do as I said before.


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## Openminded

Maybe he's cheating and maybe he isn't (certainly sounds like something was going on in the past or he could just be more careful now and it's not really in the past). That can be difficult to prove. 

As to the leadership-of-the-family role and all that goes with that -- some men can't or won't lead their family. If it's necessary, can you take on that role the rest of your life and be okay with having to do so? I had to do that during my 45 year marriage but I never liked it and over time strongly resented that it was necessary. My ex-husband felt his contribution to the family was strictly financial. Everything else was up to me and I had a career of my own to deal with. That situation greatly impacted our son who felt his dad's career was always more important than our family (which was true). Your husband may not turn out the way my ex-husband did but it's something to be aware of going forward. Life obviously gets a lot more complicated once children are involved.


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