# Sad.



## Orange_Pekoe

Hi everyone.

Husband and I reconciled after an almost year-long separation. We have been living together for almost 4 months now. It's him, myself and our 3 year old daughter.

Reconciliation has not been easy, there are ups and downs. I am in individual counselling to deal with resentment and the fallout of arguments, as well as to help me make a decision about whether I should divorce him or stay together. Counselling has helped me see that, for now, staying together is the option that will cause the least amount of damage to my daughter. My counsellor is a divorced mom of 2 and she focuses a lot on how my daughter is affected if we argue etc. which I really appreciate.

Husband and I have made progress but it's because I just let a lot of things go. My stress levels were sky-high, causing health problems and I decided to focus on my health rather than what he should/shouldn't be doing.

He still spends A LOT of time with his biological family. Tuesday I watched a movie after work so he went to his mom's. Wednesday I visited my mom so he was at his mom's. Today he calls and asks me if it's OK to have dinner at his mom's because "she invited him for a special dinner". This is on top of the fact that they see him every day (he commutes to work/from work with his siblings and spends an hour after work with them until I come home). And he also is there for a full day every weekend with our daughter.

I'm just getting stressed out, you know? I'm sad. Because we had an argument. I told him, your mom should realize you have a family of your own and we need to spend time together...he got offended. He said he'd come home but I don't want to spend dinner with an angry person who I am also angry at! I also realize that it's NOT his mom's fault, it's his, for not drawing boundaries with his family. His mom can ask him to come over every night...he should know not to and communicate it to her.

We are so different. I don't want to be the wife who asks him to spend less time with his mom/siblings...but if I don't tell him it's bothering me or it's wrong, he'll keep doing it and nothing will improve. But I'm so terrified of the effect a divorce would have on my daughter. When he's at work, or he leaves for groceries, she cries to go with him because she's so attached to him. This is aside from the emotional trauma TO ME of divorcing someone I care a lot about.

As for his family, I have "gotten over" the fact that they do not want a relationship with me and realized that they hurt me so much the first time around, WHY ON EARTH would I allow them to hurt me a second time around? So we don't keep in touch. I only hear about them through my husband or daughter and I don't plan on building a relationship with them again.


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## GusPolinski

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Husband and I reconciled after an almost year-long separation. We have been living together for almost 4 months now. It's him, myself and our 3 year old daughter.
> 
> Reconciliation has not been easy, there are ups and downs. I am in individual counselling to deal with resentment and the fallout of arguments, as well as to help me make a decision about whether I should divorce him or stay together. Counselling has helped me see that, for now, staying together is the option that will cause the least amount of damage to my daughter. My counsellor is a divorced mom of 2 and she focuses a lot on how my daughter is affected if we argue etc. which I really appreciate.
> 
> Husband and I have made progress but it's because I just let a lot of things go. My stress levels were sky-high, causing health problems and I decided to focus on my health rather than what he should/shouldn't be doing.
> 
> He still spends A LOT of time with his biological family. Tuesday I watched a movie after work so he went to his mom's. Wednesday I visited my mom so he was at his mom's. Today he calls and asks me if it's OK to have dinner at his mom's because "she invited him for a special dinner". This is on top of the fact that they see him every day (he commutes to work/from work with his siblings and spends an hour after work with them until I come home). And he also is there for a full day every weekend with our daughter.
> 
> I'm just getting stressed out, you know? I'm sad. Because we had an argument. I told him, your mom should realize you have a family of your own and we need to spend time together...he got offended. He said he'd come home but I don't want to spend dinner with an angry person who I am also angry at! I also realize that it's NOT his mom's fault, it's his, for not drawing boundaries with his family. His mom can ask him to come over every night...he should know not to and communicate it to her.
> 
> We are so different. I don't want to be the wife who asks him to spend less time with his mom/siblings...but if I don't tell him it's bothering me or it's wrong, he'll keep doing it and nothing will improve. But I'm so terrified of the effect a divorce would have on my daughter. When he's at work, or he leaves for groceries, she cries to go with him because she's so attached to him. This is aside from the emotional trauma TO ME of divorcing someone I care a lot about.
> 
> *As for his family, I have "gotten over" the fact that they do not want a relationship with me and realized that they hurt me so much the first time around, WHY ON EARTH would I allow them to hurt me a second time around? So we don't keep in touch. I only hear about them through my husband or daughter and I don't plan on building a relationship with them again.*


I really do hate to say this (seriously, I do), but I just don't see how this can be sustainable in the longterm.

Sorry.


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## Orange_Pekoe

GusPolinski said:


> I really do hate to say this (seriously, I do), but I just don't see how this can be sustainable in the longterm.
> 
> Sorry.


Neither do I. 

But I do know couples where one of the spouses has cut off all contact with the other spouse's family. And they've managed to stay together albeit painfully. I don't want that for us, though. I don't want to be known as the evil wife who cannot get along with his family...and I don't want him to have that constant pain in his life. Yes it's his doing but now I'm either going to have to deal with it somehow, or split up from him. I am so angry at him for putting us in this situation.


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## Pluto2

Oh Orange, this is sad. It sounds like he's gone right back to the same behavior that caused the separation in the first place-and you're left with just trying not to feel resentful because of it.

The only progress in this relationship I see is that his family is not in your home-which is good, but that's no way to sustain a marriage. How long is this going to last?

I'm a single mom-although I will say mine are older, teens. Its not the way I wanted to parent when I gave birth to them, but honestly we are just fine. Happy, healthy, well-adjusted, goofy at times. There's no acting up at school, drug-use, inappropriate friends or relationships. They're good. So keep that in mind. We're here for you.

And personally, I don't give a damn what anyone thinks of me. I know who I am.


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## Dude007

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> Husband and I reconciled after an almost year-long separation. We have been living together for almost 4 months now. It's him, myself and our 3 year old daughter.
> 
> Reconciliation has not been easy, there are ups and downs. I am in individual counselling to deal with resentment and the fallout of arguments, as well as to help me make a decision about whether I should divorce him or stay together. Counselling has helped me see that, for now, staying together is the option that will cause the least amount of damage to my daughter. My counsellor is a divorced mom of 2 and she focuses a lot on how my daughter is affected if we argue etc. which I really appreciate.
> 
> Husband and I have made progress but it's because I just let a lot of things go. My stress levels were sky-high, causing health problems and I decided to focus on my health rather than what he should/shouldn't be doing.
> 
> He still spends A LOT of time with his biological family. Tuesday I watched a movie after work so he went to his mom's. Wednesday I visited my mom so he was at his mom's. Today he calls and asks me if it's OK to have dinner at his mom's because "she invited him for a special dinner". This is on top of the fact that they see him every day (he commutes to work/from work with his siblings and spends an hour after work with them until I come home). And he also is there for a full day every weekend with our daughter.
> 
> I'm just getting stressed out, you know? I'm sad. Because we had an argument. I told him, your mom should realize you have a family of your own and we need to spend time together...he got offended. He said he'd come home but I don't want to spend dinner with an angry person who I am also angry at! I also realize that it's NOT his mom's fault, it's his, for not drawing boundaries with his family. His mom can ask him to come over every night...he should know not to and communicate it to her.
> 
> We are so different. I don't want to be the wife who asks him to spend less time with his mom/siblings...but if I don't tell him it's bothering me or it's wrong, he'll keep doing it and nothing will improve. But I'm so terrified of the effect a divorce would have on my daughter. When he's at work, or he leaves for groceries, she cries to go with him because she's so attached to him. This is aside from the emotional trauma TO ME of divorcing someone I care a lot about.
> 
> As for his family, I have "gotten over" the fact that they do not want a relationship with me and realized that they hurt me so much the first time around, WHY ON EARTH would I allow them to hurt me a second time around? So we don't keep in touch. I only hear about them through my husband or daughter and I don't plan on building a relationship with them again.


Classic Avoidance, you probably need to start planning your escape for good! Sorry...DUDE


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## jb02157

I'm so sorry to hear that you are in this situation. I had SERIOUS in-law issues of my own so I know what a bad spot this puts you in. It seems to me that your H is using your daughter's close relationship to him and the in-law's as a way to manipulate you since he knows you don't want to hurt her and your leaving would do that. I think that I would limit the time she spends with them if you can. This could end up being something that draws you and your daughter away from each other. Your H knows what he can get away with and he will try more and more to make you seem like the "bad parent" if this goes on. My wife did the same thing with me. The only way this resolved itself was that we were forced to move out of the area.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Pluto2 said:


> Oh Orange, this is sad. It sounds like he's gone right back to the same behavior that caused the separation in the first place-and you're left with just trying not to feel resentful because of it.
> 
> The only progress in this relationship I see is that his family is not in your home-which is good, but that's no way to sustain a marriage. How long is this going to last?
> 
> I'm a single mom-although I will say mine are older, teens. Its not the way I wanted to parent when I gave birth to them, but honestly we are just fine. Happy, healthy, well-adjusted, goofy at times. There's no acting up at school, drug-use, inappropriate friends or relationships. They're good. So keep that in mind. We're here for you.
> 
> And personally, I don't give a damn what anyone thinks of me. I know who I am.


Yes, I am trying not to feel resentful of all his behaviour. When I found out that he is still commuting with his siblings, it really hurt our reconciliation. He'd moved in already and things were going well until then.

It helps me a lot to know that you have kids who are well adjusted and happy. I am sure that I can raise my daughter to be well adjusted and happy if I split from my husband - it would be hard for her at first but overall, with time, I think she'd be fine. But the problem is, I want more kids. I want her to have siblings. And I highly doubt that I will want to get re-married and have kids with someone else. My counsellor says she does a lot of therapy for blended families - that they come with their own set of problems. So I feel like I should just stay with my husband and eventually have more kids, and if we're not happy, I can leave him later? But this causes me a lot of turmoil in itself. I don't want to have another child with him being the way he is right now. I feel like my life is on hold - having more kids is on hold, buying a house is on hold. I'm in limbo. The alternative is to split from him, deal with the trauma of a divorce and live as a single mom with my daughter and never re-marry. I'm 31. I don't think I can trust anyone else enough to get married again...at 31, can I resign to being alone forever?

I'm also at a "weak" point emotionally. Our 1 year split did a lot of damage to me emotionally. I don't know if I am strong enough right now to handle my daughter crying after her dad, or him not dropping her back to me on time, or me feeling lonely, or me feeling guilty about breaking his heart, or me feeling bad that people are talking about me. I'm scared of having to go back to supporting my family on 1 income again. I'm stressed and unhappy at work, stressed and sometimes unhappy at home (it's not always bad but - like I said - it's because I let things slide). I feel like my in laws didn't like me, lately I've been having trouble with one of my coworkers so I feel like my coworker doesn't like me, but most importantly, I don't like myself. I'm bitter, controlling, angry, sad. Not every day - we have great days out together as a little family - but enough days to make me not like myself.


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## Orange_Pekoe

jb02157 said:


> I'm so sorry to hear that you are in this situation. I had SERIOUS in-law issues of my own so I know what a bad spot this puts you in. It seems to me that your H is using your daughter's close relationship to him and the in-law's as a way to manipulate you since he knows you don't want to hurt her and your leaving would do that. I think that I would limit the time she spends with them if you can. This could end up being something that draws you and your daughter away from each other. Your H knows what he can get away with and he will try more and more to make you seem like the "bad parent" if this goes on. My wife did the same thing with me. The only way this resolved itself was that we were forced to move out of the area.


Thank you for your compassion. I am grateful to everyone on TAM who has helped me in my journey so far.

Right now, my daughter sees her dad's side of the family 1 day a week. If we split, he could potentially have her for half the time, or at least 2 days a week (sleep over). Splitting from him means less turmoil at home for me, but she'd be with them MORE not less. 

He will never move out of province. He's not even willing to live in another part of town away from them, let alone out of province. I suggested it once and he'd never agree to it. 

He thinks that within a couple of years, our relationship will improve and then we can work on building a relationship with his family. Of course, this means I do all the heavy lifting - they won't. I'm not going to put myself in that situation. I've already told him that I don't plan on ever rebuilding a relationship with them...but I'm sure he still hopes I will.


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## EnjoliWoman

I'm sorry I forget some of your original story so you may have already said... have you tried marriage counseling? Is he willing?

Does he know a couple needs 15 hours of COUPLE TIME per week - not family time - to build intimacy? I don't see how you can get 15 hours a week together like that.

He leaves instead of joining you watching a movie? That's kind of sad. 

Could you explain the 15 hours required and tell him that he can spend any extra time with his family as long as he plans 15 hours with YOU (not just watching TV or sleeping but engaged in activities and conversation, not housework and errands) AND he gives you weekends except for... [fill in a concession] - concession being Sunday dinner with his family or take daughter over Saturday afternoon and come home right after dinner, etc.


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## Orange_Pekoe

EnjoliWoman said:


> I'm sorry I forget some of your original story so you may have already said... have you tried marriage counseling? Is he willing?
> 
> Does he know a couple needs 15 hours of COUPLE TIME per week - not family time - to build intimacy? I don't see how you can get 15 hours a week together like that.
> 
> He leaves instead of joining you watching a movie? That's kind of sad.
> 
> Could you explain the 15 hours required and tell him that he can spend any extra time with his family as long as he plans 15 hours with YOU (not just watching TV or sleeping but engaged in activities and conversation, not housework and errands) AND he gives you weekends except for... [fill in a concession] - concession being Sunday dinner with his family or take daughter over Saturday afternoon and come home right after dinner, etc.


We try to spend one weekend day together as a family, and on weekdays he's usually home from 6pm to bedtime. So on the surface, the schedule is fine.
It's the other stuff.

Since he's moved in, he's packed his stuff up and left about 5 times. First 4 times I demanded him to - last 2 times, he did it on his own. The first time, I asked him to come back. The other 4 times, I told him I want a divorce - but he cried etc. long story short I let him back in. As if that isn't dysfunctional enough, this basically means his clothes are in a suitcase and stuffed into 2 bags. When I tell him to put it up in the closet, because it's offensive to both of us for him to live that way, he doesn't see the urgency. He says "OK I'll do it" and 3 weeks go by before he makes any effort to put them away. So to me, it feels like he's treating our home as a vacation place - he is just waiting for the next time we argue and he packs up to leave. 

He is helpful with household chores, picking up groceries and helps in the kitchen. BUT, he has done absolutely nothing around our home. I mean every single dish, chair, carpet, etc. is stuff I've bought and I've taken the initiative with. I hired a handyman to put up 2 mirrors in our bedroom, the guy did a bad job and we ended up asking him to just patch it up again. I have to repair the wall. This happened 2 months ago and it's still not repaired. I'm so tired from all the cleaning, cooking, working, etc. that I have not set aside time to fix it myself. He has shown zero interest in taking initiative to fix it, even though he knows it bothers me. Again, I think it's because he doesn't see our condo as his home yet. Just a temporary place he's staying.

We go out to the movies sometimes. But he doesn't go to weddings or engagement parties with me, won't go to my company Christmas party, doesn't invite me to his family gatherings (obviously because of my issues with his siblings). The reason he doesn't go to weddings/parties/Christmas get together is because he's religious and doesn't want to be around drinking and partying. (These are VERY tame events I go to, there is no wild drinking or partying, it's all very civilized, but he still doesn't go.) So I end up going alone.

He pays the rent. I pay any other extra bills (there are many). But I cannot even bring myself to discuss with him, buying a home and moving. He will want to move close to his mom - I want to stay as far away from them as I can. He doesn't trust me with his money and says he'll only contribute the same amount that I do, toward a home. He has put all his savings into a joint account with his brother AFTER we reconciled...we argued about this and it became another serious issue and nearly ended our marriage. He says he's transferred the funds out of the joint account in to an account only in his name but I haven't seen any proof, and don't trust his word. I basically have just "let it go" for my daughter's sake. She is going to cry after him and I will feel like a horrible mother and all-round horrible person.

Last night when he came home I was really upset...I basically just withdraw when I'm that upset. I don't talk to him or want to look at him. All of a sudden I felt REALLY depressed and couldn't stop crying. I don't know why I do this...I wish I could talk to him calmly. But I either withdraw, or we have a heated conversation. It's probably because I have realized he has not changed and it's on me to accept him or split. I'm scared a divorce will plunge me into a deep depression.

I have pleaded with him to go to marriage counselling - he won't. He says marriage counsellors are secular, and he'll only agree to a religious counsellor but that's useless to me...we went to one 3 times and it was a waste of time. We just argued, the religious counsellor gave a lot of positive advice but my husband ignored all of it. So I'm going to a professional therapist on my own.


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## Pluto2

well, seeing how your home life is, and the miserable future you think you should endure its no wonder you are miserable. Orange, you are miserable.

You have two paths, find out someway to accept the status quo (you are not doing that or you would not be so miserable, that is not acceptance), or leave.

And boundaries, remember those? Where are yours? If he wants to live in YOUR home, there are certain behaviors you can demand. If you want to stay in the marriage there is certain conduct you can demand. It doesn't mean your demanding it will get him to comply, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying-this is not acceptable and show him the door until it changes.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Pluto2 said:


> well, seeing how your home life is, and the miserable future you think you should endure its no wonder you are miserable. Orange, you are miserable.
> 
> You have two paths, find out someway to accept the status quo (you are not doing that or you would not be so miserable, that is not acceptance), or leave.
> 
> And boundaries, remember those? Where are yours? If he wants to live in YOUR home, there are certain behaviors you can demand. If you want to stay in the marriage there is certain conduct you can demand. It doesn't mean your demanding it will get him to comply, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with saying-this is not acceptable and show him the door until it changes.


Is it miserable? It is, isn't it? It must be, because I'm unhappy and acting out.

I do communicate boundaries to him. I have told him - such and such is unacceptable, don't do it if you want to be in a relationship with me, else our marriage will likely end. *He tells me I am being controlling and that everything has to be my way or the highway. I don't know what to say to that. *

I have shown him the door many times (kicked him out about 4 times now). He shows up at the door the next day and it's an hour-long session of drama, crying, etc. trying to convince me to give it another chance. He tells me "no issue is too big to overcome". And deep down, I'm not sure I want to end the marriage. So we are still together.


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## Pluto2

So you can "verbalize" your boundaries, but not "enforce" them. Verbalizing is good, because without them there's no way others can know how we need them to interact. Now about the enforcement, that needs some work. If he has come back crying, promising to change more than once, with no change-why are you accepting that? His words are empty. He has to show you, prove to you that he is willing to change. So the next time it happens, have a list of things you want him to do around the house. If he wants to stay in your home, he has to act like it. You should not be running a B&B

And of course he would say you are controlling. The thing is the only thing you can control is you. Obviously, you can't control him, but insisting on reasonable boundaries is not controlling-its self-preservation. 

You have been trying so hard.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Pluto, the thing is, he has made changes. For example, he used to go early on Saturday morning with my daughter, to his mom's house for breakfast! I told him it makes me feel lonely, and I have to clean on my own. He felt bad and changed that around in a few weeks. He now stays for breakfast, helps me clean (a little, and only sometimes) and then goes.

So there is some progress - but I guess, not enough. Eliminating his family from his life (which he shares with me) is unreasonable. But also, the amount of time he spends with them would annoy the hell out of ANY woman. So we have yet to meet in the middle.


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## Openminded

I advised against letting him back in your life because I didn't think he would cut ties with his family enough for you to be happy. I wish I had been wrong but it doesn't sound like it. 

The thing is -- he has always felt you would change your mind about them. He won't ever give that idea up. His biological family will always come first. Yes, he obviously wants to be with you and your daughter. But he apparently feels he's compromised enough and now he thinks it's your turn. He's also very good at convincing you to take him back each time so he has that going for him (and he knows it). 

My advice is the same as it was. If you want to be with him then you have to accept that you are second to them and you will be second as long as his family's around. Unfortunately. Because that's who he is.


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## Marc878

Damn. What's his mommy say? Ever speak with her about it?

He needs to grow up and become a husband and father. You need to decide on what to do and live with it.

Personally I'd move on from this BS


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## lifeistooshort

Orange, what I'm about to say I really do say with the utmost compassion. What exactly would you feel resentful about? He's made very clear to you who he is and where you fall on the priorities list. You choose to accept it. Whether it's for your daughter or because you don't want to be alone, it really doesn't matter because at the end of the day you have to own your choices. You've made a choice to accept him back knowing full well who he is and what his priorities are. 

He does want to be married but only on his terms. So if you decide to stick around, which it certainly is your right to do, you'll have to accept and make peace with what he offers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Orange_Pekoe

Hi everyone,

I've read all your replies and thought about it.

OpenMinded, you are right that he has not changed his behaviour "enough" for me to be happy. He has changed a lot, but the thing I need most right now is for him to distance himself from his family and focus on us as a new family unit. He has not done that and never will - not unless death or some natural disaster occurs. He is just as attached to them as ever. And, I am left with a few choices:

1. Try to change him. (People don't change.)
2. Accept it. (I'm trying to do this.)
3. Leave. (This tears me up. I don't know if I can handle my daughter crying after him and all the guilt I'd feel from every angle.)

Lifeistooshort...this brings me to your point. I guess I have to either choose option 2 or option 3. I could accept the way things are...if I knew I'd never have to deal with his family again. But knowing I have to eventually deal with them in the future if I stay married to my husband, makes me really anxious and hesitant and I just have not forgiven them. If I wasn't married to him, I'd only have to see them at my daughter's wedding...but I know my husband wants us to be a "happy family" again in a couple years. Not happening. And my resistance will make me look like the bad guy. 

I had a long talk with him this weekend. It was very painful. But I did tell him how I feel, and that he hasn't even really moved IN yet so it's no wonder we're in so much turmoil. I also told him I'm not going to put any effort in rebuilding a relationship with his family...if they want one, they'd have to take the initiative from now on. 

I wish I had a normal husband. Does anybody have a normal husband? Does anybody have in laws they don't hate?


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## survive_to_die

If it helps, my wife and I are separated for 1 year. Wife practically hates my side of the family because of ways she was judged and treated by them in the past. I've always been very sheltered and babied by my parents so I naturally felt they were a "safe zone" whenever things in my life where feeling wrong.

I have changed that over time, on account of trying to make peace with my wife, that wasn't the right reason and I grew a lot of internal resentment for her about it.

After she left (due to me having a EA) and I realized the gravity of my actions and decisions, and how much my wife really means to me and the burning desire I have for her to be in my future... NOTHING could keep me from trying to win her heart back. Family, friends, money, pride... whatever it is, simply no contest.

If we are ever together, this doesn't mean I would never have no contact with my family, I would insist on at least having some level of contact with them, especially as my father is old and has quickly developing Alzheimer's. My mother will always have a special place in my heart, but I've realized that me being a MAN is me being my OWN MAN, not for my wife and not for my family or some religion.

But my wife will always have my highest priority and consideration for any decisions I make going forward, should we ever reconnect and embark on a new relationship together.

Husbands and men do change. Sometimes we need to be shocked so hard to our cores that we have to reevaluate everything we've been doing (or not doing). I believe you can facilitate this shock as my wife did with me. She warned me of the consequences of my actions and that she'd be gone if I did not change. When she actually followed through with it I wasn't too worried at first. As she continued resolutely and found her own interests and independence from me, then I started my questioning and the reinventing of myself as a man and person.

We're currently still separated, but we date, spend weekends together and I remain completely hopeful that we will reconcile into some new, exciting relationship in the future.

And let me repeat, that's what I've learned that I want above all else... family, friends, selfish desires. It is possible.



Orange_Pekoe said:


> Hi everyone,
> 1. Try to change him. (People don't change.)
> 2. Accept it. (I'm trying to do this.)
> 3. Leave. (This tears me up. I don't know if I can handle my daughter crying after him and all the guilt I'd feel from every angle.)


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## Orange_Pekoe

survive_to_die said:


> If it helps, my wife and I are separated for 1 year. Wife practically hates my side of the family because of ways she was judged and treated by them in the past. I've always been very sheltered and babied by my parents so I naturally felt they were a "safe zone" whenever things in my life where feeling wrong.
> 
> I have changed that over time, on account of trying to make peace with my wife, that wasn't the right reason and I grew a lot of internal resentment for her about it.
> 
> After she left (due to me having a EA) and I realized the gravity of my actions and decisions, and how much my wife really means to me and the burning desire I have for her to be in my future... NOTHING could keep me from trying to win her heart back. Family, friends, money, pride... whatever it is, simply no contest.
> 
> If we are ever together, this doesn't mean I would never have no contact with my family, I would insist on at least having some level of contact with them, especially as my father is old and has quickly developing Alzheimer's. My mother will always have a special place in my heart, but I've realized that me being a MAN is me being my OWN MAN, not for my wife and not for my family or some religion.
> 
> But my wife will always have my highest priority and consideration for any decisions I make going forward, should we ever reconnect and embark on a new relationship together.
> 
> Husbands and men do change. Sometimes we need to be shocked so hard to our cores that we have to reevaluate everything we've been doing (or not doing). I believe you can facilitate this shock as my wife did with me. She warned me of the consequences of my actions and that she'd be gone if I did not change. When she actually followed through with it I wasn't too worried at first. As she continued resolutely and found her own interests and independence from me, then I started my questioning and the reinventing of myself as a man and person.
> 
> We're currently still separated, but we date, spend weekends together and I remain completely hopeful that we will reconcile into some new, exciting relationship in the future.
> 
> And let me repeat, that's what I've learned that I want above all else... family, friends, selfish desires. It is possible.


It's very sweet to know that there are men/women who learn to understand the impact of their actions on their spouses, and are not just willing to change but actually do follow through with the changes.

I think one thing you said is really key: You want to be a man for yourself, not for your wife, family or a religion. That's in line with what my counsellor said. She said people do not change for their spouses, the only time they change is when they realize they NEED to change whether their spouse is in the picture or not. So yes, people can change...but not because we try to change them. 

My husband doesn't think there is anything wrong with his attachment to his family. He thinks there is something wrong with me: for being "unforgiving" of them. I'm not unforgiving. In fact, after all the pain I went through, I still chose to put it all aside and visit them after I reconciled with my husband. I was treated badly so I didn't go back and don't want a relationship with them anymore.

During our 1st year of separation, he exhibited a lot of what you mentioned...he didn't take it that seriously, resisted a lot, denial, anger etc. (the usual). He wasn't willing to change ANYTHING about the way he lived, until I showed him separation papers 11 months later. It was also the first time I told him I no longer loved him. Those two things combined to bring him back to me. He saw me as an independant person who had built a new life for herself and realized he wanted to be a part of it.

He feels he's made enough changes by moving out of the same house as his mom and siblings. I doubt he will be willing to make more changes...even if I threaten divorce. Or he might...but he'll resent me for it.

I asked him to bring all his extra clothes - he had left a lot of stuff at his mom's house. I told him, you haven't even really moved IN ... so move in. Bring your extra stuff, this is your home, act like it. So he did. Our next big step, aside from seeing if we can live together over the next 6 months without major arguments etc. is to see if we can buy a house together. Right now, we sometimes can't even plan a trip downtown without fighting and cancelling...so buying a house is not on my radar. But if we stay together 6 months, it will be. It has to be. I can't put my life on hold forever.

When I decided to let him move in with me, someone here asked me to re-evaluate my marriage every 3 months. See if it's improved or not. That's what I'm doing - seems I'm reevaluating every week not every 3 months lol. 

I really hope you and your wife are able to get to a place where you find each other again, if you truly love her and want to build a peaceful and happy life together. Self-reflection is important all the time - whether it's with your wife or with someone new. All the best.


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## survive_to_die

Orange_Pekoe said:


> My husband doesn't think there is anything wrong with his attachment to his family. He thinks there is something wrong with me: for being "unforgiving" of them. I'm not unforgiving. In fact, after all the pain I went through, I still chose to put it all aside and visit them after I reconciled with my husband. I was treated badly so I didn't go back and don't want a relationship with them anymore.
> 
> ...
> 
> He feels he's made enough changes by moving out of the same house as his mom and siblings. I doubt he will be willing to make more changes...even if I threaten divorce. Or he might...but he'll resent me for it.


Well it sounds like he's at least gotten to the point of knowing that he wants a relationship with you. Speaking from a man's perspective, when I felt my wife wanted me to do something and I felt I shouldn't need to or she was overreacting, I stopped listening to all of her reasoning immediately. All I heard was her always being unhappy with me, her always wanting me to be something different, her always starting problems where life could be more peaceful if she was more agreeable. Does that seem familiar at all to you?

Now I can see that as me not being a real man. But also the spouse has a role in how this information and the request to change is presented. Check out this book.

I'm reading it on my own and I've applied some of its principles immediately with noticeable results. I don't think it's too late for your husband to reevaluate his actions with his family and learn to meet you in-between on more agreeable terms. But it definitely requires a lot of tact on your end. Maybe there's a chance that if this were implemented and he could see that his situations all around were improving that it would be a good move on HIS part. Not something he sees as being coerced into by his "unhappy wife".

Whether she's doing it on purpose or not, my wife has this way of encouraging me to change in ways that seem like it was my idea all along. Once I see the positive results it doesn't matter who's idea it was, I'd be a fool to insist on going back to less inner peace and confidence.


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## Orange_Pekoe

survive_to_die said:


> Well it sounds like he's at least gotten to the point of knowing that he wants a relationship with you. Speaking from a man's perspective, when I felt my wife wanted me to do something and I felt I shouldn't need to or she was overreacting, I stopped listening to all of her reasoning immediately. All I heard was her always being unhappy with me, her always wanting me to be something different, her always starting problems where life could be more peaceful if she was more agreeable. Does that seem familiar at all to you?
> 
> Now I can see that as me not being a real man. But also the spouse has a role in how this information and the request to change is presented. Check out this book.
> 
> I'm reading it on my own and I've applied some of its principles immediately with noticeable results. I don't think it's too late for your husband to reevaluate his actions with his family and learn to meet you in-between on more agreeable terms. But it definitely requires a lot of tact on your end. Maybe there's a chance that if this were implemented and he could see that his situations all around were improving that it would be a good move on HIS part. Not something he sees as being coerced into by his "unhappy wife".
> 
> Whether she's doing it on purpose or not, my wife has this way of encouraging me to change in ways that seem like it was my idea all along. Once I see the positive results it doesn't matter who's idea it was, I'd be a fool to insist on going back to less inner peace and confidence.


Your response has been more helpful to me than 4 months of constant reflection...because I'm a woman, and I can't get a man's perspective. Yes I get feedback from my husband (negative) and feedback from my dad ("he's your husband, make it work). But this feedback is constructive.

I'll definitely read the book. He absolutely stops listening to my requests when I deliver it in an unhappy way. I bet he feels criticized most of the time. I can definitely do with a bit of tact...I'm so angry at him because of the past, sometimes I just lash out without caring about his feelings at all. I need to change, too.

THANK YOU!

I don't know if he will respond or change...he's very stubborn and set in his ways. But it's worth a try.


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## survive_to_die

I'm glad it was a help. I was raised very close to my mother and she always taught me that the man was the authority, the man has the last word, the wife supports the man, the wife takes care of everything while the man works, the man has to be strong and sure and confident.

My father reflected that dynamic and I thought that was what I should have been as a husband. So when my wife would come to me as you have, full of anger, fear, anxiety, stress, loneliness (whatever emotion), I would often feel like she wasn't respecting me as THE MAN of the house. Which I now realize is a bulls**t, outdated way of viewing the marriage dynamic. 

But my wife usually came to me with valid emotions like fear, loss, anxiety, stress, uncertainty when she really just wanted love and protection. But I saw the anger and frustration and saw a threat to my manhood and my ROLE as the man.

I feel like as young as we are, if we would have worked on that part of our communication, things could have been a lot easier, but most times we model our marital interactions based on church, or our parents. So with what you know of his parents and family life, you can probably gather a lot of how your husband thinks he should be as *A* husband versus what might be best for him when it comes to being *YOUR* husband.

Don't be afraid to let your real emotions show to him if he doesn't have a track record of disregarding you when you feel scared, threatened or lonely. When my wife shows those emotions to me, there's nothing I wouldn't do, no one I wouldn't cut-out, fight, tell-off in order to be what she needs. But when I see anger, I still have to fight thinking "who does she think she is coming to me like this?".

Glad my insight can be of help :smile2:




Orange_Pekoe said:


> Your response has been more helpful to me than 4 months of constant reflection...because I'm a woman, and I can't get a man's perspective. Yes I get feedback from my husband (negative) and feedback from my dad ("he's your husband, make it work). But this feedback is constructive.
> 
> I'll definitely read the book. He absolutely stops listening to my requests when I deliver it in an unhappy way. I bet he feels criticized most of the time. I can definitely do with a bit of tact...I'm so angry at him because of the past, sometimes I just lash out without caring about his feelings at all. I need to change, too.
> 
> THANK YOU!
> 
> I don't know if he will respond or change...he's very stubborn and set in his ways. But it's worth a try.


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## Orange_Pekoe

He used to disregard my feelings. I would come to him with a lot of concerns and he'd just pat me on the shoulder and say, "Let's go sit downstairs with my mom and everyone." That's such a horrible thing to do, it made me feel completely ignored and unimportant! The rest of the time, he'd yell at me. Yes, he definitely felt that he deserved respect as the husband, even if he was being disrespectful.

I say "used to" because now, he listens to my concerns. He's trying. He realized he almost lost me and our daughter and it's probably in his best interest to follow through with some of my requests.

But it's still not enough.

He would not be willing to cut anyone out, just to be with me.

Are you saying that I should show my emotions (like fear, concern etc.) without the anger?


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## McDean

Sorry to read this story OP - feel for you! My gut reaction was strong because I find something inherently weak about people who have to be around their family 'all of the time'....family is so very important but he seems to have forgotten he is creating one of his own with you and your daughter. The fact that his mom and siblings would not wonder what is up with him being there all the time without you (meaning, his mom in particular would/should be encouraging him to take care of his family first instead of focusing on hers) tells me their hold on each other is a bit overdone...he does not sound like a man to me, sorry if that is harsh. He made a commitment to you and now you have a child together, including his family (and yours) is natural and would be something all of you probably want, but the extent and time he spends with them is hardly different from the guys who never move out of their parents basement...

In the end, his ties to them are so strong based on what you have described that I really don't see a turn around in the future, which I know hurts to hear. But, how will your daughter grow up? Will she think it is normal that mom is excluded all the time? Also, your expectations around the house are normal for any rational adult. I think you married a man-child sadly....

Best of luck to you and I hope you have the confidence to do what you need to for your health and the health of your daughter - true, a divorce will impact her but she will learn how to be a confident and strong women from you and will no doubt understand as she gets older....lest she potentially repeat your mistakes unconsciously....


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## survive_to_die

Well, speaking from experience, there are two HUUUUUGE factors in how well I responded to my wife's expressing of her emotion:

The timing of her expression (was it at a family gathering or church function)?
Her tone of voice, body language, level of anger

Regarding the timing, a lot of times she'd come to me as "THIS NEEDS TO BE FIXED NOW!" and a majority of the time I'd feel like it was the first time I was hearing what ever she was expressing to me. I didn't even have time to process the situation let alone how in hell it could have gotten her so angry. 

There's nothing wrong with being more patient when a situation is bad and AFTERWARDS when you've calmed down and your husband doesn't feel like he's surrounded on all sides by people, family and needing to keep up an appearance of calm or "everything's ok", then you could privately say, "hey, something important's on my mind and either now or sometime soon I'd like to talk about it." He doesn't feel cornered or caught off guard by the current environment or your demeanor.

Which brings us to the demeanor. Just imagine if your husband had hurt emotions, he was worried or anxious, but when he came to you, all you saw was him mad and angry. You'd probably think "he's mad and angry at me over something I didn't know was a problem! His face is red, his fists are balled, he can't control himself! How dare he talk to me that way and expect that I would listen or care!". So now imagine he came to you and said "hunny, you're acting this way and it's making me feel anxious or what you did earlier in the night hurt my feelings, can I talk to you about it?"

How would YOU feel in those different scenarios? Recently when texting my wife about something that was upsetting me, I was initially angry and I wanted to text her about it BECAUSE I was angry, but instead I put on some angry music, got my anger out and realized I was just using my anger to protect how I felt, which was ignored. I wasn't really angry, my feelings were hurt. 

So I texted her and explained what happened, how I thought she would treat me versus how I felt she actually treated me, and that the results hurt my feelings because I felt she didn't think about me. She replied with a loving, understanding text. If I had sent an initial angry text, there's no way on earth she would have been receptive.

And I wasn't suggesting he cut someone out, per se. But over time as your husband changes, as the marriage dynamic changes and communication improves, he may find that he is able to alter the way he is with his family so that he can still be a son and sibling AND a husband. As others have mentioned that might mean he alters how much time he spends with them versus others.

But don't expect any of this to be a quick fix. You're not racing towards a resolution, those fixes never work. This process can take time, years even and you have to be patient, strong and loving as my wife has been. Your husband will see this and if along the way communication is good and you're BOTH working on your character flaws and handling of each other, he might just find a healthier balance between his biological family and his family with you.



Orange_Pekoe said:


> He used to disregard my feelings. I would come to him with a lot of concerns and he'd just pat me on the shoulder and say, "Let's go sit downstairs with my mom and everyone." That's such a horrible thing to do, it made me feel completely ignored and unimportant! The rest of the time, he'd yell at me. Yes, he definitely felt that he deserved respect as the husband, even if he was being disrespectful.
> 
> I say "used to" because now, he listens to my concerns. He's trying. He realized he almost lost me and our daughter and it's probably in his best interest to follow through with some of my requests.
> 
> But it's still not enough.
> 
> He would not be willing to cut anyone out, just to be with me.
> 
> Are you saying that I should show my emotions (like fear, concern etc.) without the anger?


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## Orange_Pekoe

Survive, I really appreciate your feedback. The way I deliver a message is just as important as the words. I tried to put that in to practice tonight as we had an important conversation about something that has been bothering me for a long time.

The thing is, he has made a lot of changes - the changes being, he sold the home he lived in with them, and moved in with me. That's it. There are no other changes. I have been an angry resentful wife most of the time ... and at other times, taken a deep breath and really tried to control myself, been patient and loving. But for whatever reason, although things have improved, they're just not enough for us to be a stable family unit. I'm really glad that you are communicating well with your wife, I'm certain she sees your behaviour and it resonates positively with her. Definitely keep doing that...as a woman, I can attest to the fact that a calm, patient and loving man is ideal. Be that ideal for her.

McDean, thank you for your feedback as well. I'm really sad to say, I think you are right. I married someone who was not ready for responsibilities of being a husband and father...he thought I would simply be an extension of the family he already had (mom/siblings), someone who wouldn't demand much and just assimilate to their way of living in their home. Let me tell you what happened tonight.

Lately, I have been very bothered by the fact that he leaves our home really early (5:45am), drives to his mom's house, sometimes has breakfast there or packs his breakfast, prays together with them and then leaves for work with his brother and sister. They all work in the same part of town so commute to and from work. Mind you - they used to do this when we used to all live together and I disliked it a lot but couldn't do much about it. But when we reconciled, I thought that would be the break I was waiting for ... I was waiting for him to become an independant adult and start commuting on his own. Turns out, he'd rather drive out of his way to get to them. I've been asking him lately to eat breakfast here, and pray here at our home, then go to work. We argued about it tonight. He said I was being controlling, whereas I (calmly and respectfully) told him that he's simply showing me he has not changed, has not put the focus on "us" as a family unit, and I'm not being controlling, I'm asking for reasonable boundaries. I want him to become independant. He said I'm acting really jealous of his family...I said of course I am. "You chose them over us (daughter and I) for a year, and now that you've moved in you still put them first, yes I feel hurt and jealous." He didn't respond well to that. He said I'm also not following reasonable boundaries he's set. When I asked him what those are, he said that I go to weddings, engagements etc. when he'd prefer me to not go. My mouth dropped open. Yes he's a really religious guy but this is taking it too far. He doesn't go to weddings with me which is hard enough on me, I feel lonely and out of place so I usually go with my sister. I told him, I will continue going to events and when our daughter grows up, so will she. That's what did it. Not the family attachment, not the resentment about the past, not his inability to detach from others and focus on us. It's his religiosity. I'm afraid he'll destroy my child's future by expecting her to stay home and not socialize. I don't want that for her! 

Also, he kept raising his voice. He just wouldn't stop. We live in a condo and I kept asking him to stop yelling because people might hear. Also, we shouldn't be yelling in front of our daughter. For about 10 minutes he ignored all my requests for him to lower his voice, so I asked him to leave. He packed up all his things - I mean everything - in to bags, left his key and he's gone. Off to his mom's.

I feel cold. Unfeeling. Just dumbfounded. I know that he will call tomorrow and want to come back, he will apologize, cry, tell me our daughter deserves siblings. I'll cry too. But I cannot handle the idea of a father imposing unreasonable restrictions on his daughter, the way my father did to me, and yelling or criticizing her if she doesn't follow through. Also, this whole business of packing up and leaving every time we have a big argument is childish, damaging and I need for the cycle to end. It needs to stop.

Other times, I would wait for him to text me the next day so we could talk about what happened. I don't want to talk this time. I re-arranged some furniture and found some stuff belonging to him that he forgot...I put them into a bag and he can pick them up when he visits our daughter.

I am starting to feel an emotion...fear. I'm afraid. I don't want this to happen and at the same time, I don't want him to come back and the cycle to re-start. I don't know if I'm doing the right thing. But I do know that the way he wants to live and the way I want to live are very different...today we are arguing about his family, tomorrow we'll be arguing over serious issues about raising our kids. Did we overreact with this argument?


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## Openminded

He is who he is. And who he is, unfortunately, is not who you want him to be. Yes, tomorrow he will cry and beg you -- again -- to take him back. If you do, that pattern is very likely to continue because he knows it works. He's good at manipulating you and he is well aware of it. He plans to live his life as he chooses and he expects you to eventually abide by all his wishes. There's a religious element of control that's obvious. And that's unlikely to change. 

The problem is that your daughter is getting older. Children are never as clueless as their parents think. She will become aware of those arguments and what they mean and especially as they relate to how her father views her mother's place in the world. What kind of message will she take away.


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## Mr.Fisty

A healthy social life is important in a child's development. The better a child can communicate, interact, affects mental health, brain connectivity, and there are other benefits.

Not to mention you want to raise an intelligent, independent person, someone unlike the members of his family.

Remember what I said about change, it takes a long time to effect it. What you had was the phase where he tried pleasing you to keep the attachment. Love is a drive, and we take actions to keep it. Once he feels safe, he feels less motivated, and without real help, he will not change. Your relationship will continue on this cycle of dysfunction. You will be drawn time and time again to the good and wait for the bad periods to detach. Not a healthy environment for either you or your daughter.

You may love him, but that does not mean that he is good for either of you.

I personally think you should detach, and not let him back until you either move on, or he starts seeing a therapist. Even then, he has to sustain it for at least a year.

If your goal is life stability and fulfillment, you really need to take a look at what your partner is capable of in a relationship. If your goal is to stay married to him, you have to take the negative that comes along. Again, love does not mean correct. You can love a narcissist for an example and not receive the love in return. If it is not giving him his way, then it will be constant fights to establish boundaries. And he has a propensity to push that.

Will it be another long term separation before he comes crawling back again? You do need to have a line in the sand somewhere or you will keep allowing this to occur and your fear is holding you back. Imagine if your daughter learn this type of behavior from you. At least without him, you can start by not being in constant bad moods. Then, at least you can limit your focus to you and your daughter. He is taking away mental and emotional energy that you can place elsewhere.

If you separate from him again, take the steps to make your own life better. His influence on your life is not exactly positive.

Honestly, you both want different things and you both are trying to force each other into the mold you want each other to be. You cannot accept him for who he is and the same goes for him. Logically, you have to let him go. BTW, what you want is healthier over all since the goal of life is for offspring to become independent. If you allow your fear to control yoour actions, then you take blame for how your daughter turns out, why your own life is the way it is, because I promise you this, he seems incapable of breaking the cycle. How much time must go by, and now you have to start the detachment portion again. Until you are ready to follow through, all your anger and complaining will be just noise. And what I mean is five years down the road, ten years, you will still be stuck on a message forum, venting your frustration. And as your daughter gets older, this will be her norm, drama.


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## cdbaker

You've got to remember that men and women communicate VERY differently and we have VERY different needs. For many years I didn't understand this fully, and my marriage with my wife suffered enormously. A few thoughts that might be helpful for you...

1. We men don't understand women to begin with. They like to complain a lot, about everything they can think of, large and small. My wife can get just as angry/worked up over a funny look she thinks the neighbor gave her (a minor issue, if it's a real issue at all), as she can over telling me that she wants to quit her job. (A major issue) We also know that women are very emotional, and a massive over-the-top problem one day is no big deal a day later. PMS is mixed in there somewhere as well... We guys like to fix problems too, but VERY often it would seem that women don't want our help with fixing the problems they complain about. They just want us to listen, and nod our head. This confuses and bewilders us to no end. We don't complain about a problem to someone (our spouse or otherwise) unless we are asking for their help, or want them to solve the problem. Ultimately, all of this trains a lot of us men to not trust our interpretation of our wives reactions, and to some degree, take their complaints with a grain of salt, because we don't know how serious of an issue it is to her, if she actually wants us to do anything about it or not, or if it's not going to be important to her anyway five minutes later.

This is why you see so often here on TAM stories of men coming here saying, "Holy cow! My wife just said she's leaving me/kicking me out/filing for divorce! This came completely out of the blue!" In truth, their wives probably tried to get through to them for a very long time, but felt ignored or that they didn't care. Really, it's a communication issue. If I'm sick and tired of my wife leaving dirty clothes all the floor, I'm going to tell her I'm tired of picking up her dirty clothes and she needs to be responsible/respectful and use the hamper. But if my wife is sick and tired of picking up my dirty clothes left on the floor, she's going to try to think of a way to "relay the message" to me in a passive roundabout way. She might say, "Ouch my foot really hurts, I tripped over your clothes on the floor when I got up this morning..." or "Our room is always a mess!" or something similar. Then they call us thick-skulled when we don't get the message, haha. We men need DIRECT communication.

2. I think you also have a problem with expectations. Expectations can ruin any marriage, easily, and will both spouses feeling like the other is crazily unreasonable. For instance, I bet your husband's parents (or one of them at least) were very accustomed to living with or nearby their parents when they became adults and got married and started their family. If they grow up constantly surrounded by their grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins, etc., then they are going to view that as completely normal, and anything else will be viewed as abnormal and unreasonable. For me, I grew up as a military brat living all over the country and the world. I saw my grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins once every few years. For my wife however, she and her family lived in the same town her whole life, and saw her extended family every week or so as a result. So she feels an extreme need to see her family frequently, and can't imagine moving away from them, while I have no desire whatsoever to do so many activities and visits with extended family. That was her expectation though, that's what she felt was normal, and I was being unreasonable by thinking she was with them too much, or that I didn't care about her by not wanting to tag along every time. It took us some time to figure out what the problem was, which is that we both have grown up with different ideas of what marriage is, what spousal roles should be, and understand that we need to respect our differences and control our expectations.

It might help for him to get some 3rd party perspectives for what is reasonable, whether from friends or a therapist. I think it's unreasonable for him to spend multiple days a week with his family, ESPECIALLY if they are not getting along with you. 

3. This brings me to another concern, which Gus highlighted above. I don't see how your relationship will improve while his family is still relationally opposed to you AND while your husband allows it to some degree. When my wife and I separated, most members of my family really turned against her, which is probably not unusual at all. She's my wife however, so it's my responsibility to stand up for her and defend her, EVEN when she doesn't necessarily deserve it every given time. Especially when we decided to reconcile, I had to made crystal clear to my family and to my wife who my allegiance was to, which wasn't easy for them to take. Anytime they invited me over for dinner or for an activity, if my wife wasn't invited then I declined the invite, period. In my view, if I agreed to attend an event with them in which my wife was not invited, I was effectively telling her that they are more important to me than she is, and I'm supporting my family's hurtful position by giving them exactly what they want. They fought me on it, but I never budged. It's completely their choice if they don't want to put any effort into rebuilding their relationships with my wife, but it's equally my choice to not interact with them under those circumstances too. It took a year or so, but eventually they all came on board and they all get along great with my wife now, despite our rocky past.

Part two of that however, is that I also expected my wife to be extremely receptive to my family if/when they opened up to her. It would not be ok for her to cross her arms and demand that they come to her, apologize for anything, etc. If she wanted to be my wife again (vs. continue separated or get divorced, which were options of course) then she needed to respect my family as well and make every REASONABLE effort to get along with them and rebuild her relationships with them, when they are stepping forward and being reasonable as well. My concern here is that you seem to be indicating that you have no willingness to get along with them, or desire to rebuild relationships with them. I know it was important for our marriage that my wife wanted to rebuild that with my family, if they would cooperate, which they eventually did. I think you should WANT to try to reconnect with them, as long as they are being reasonable and meeting you half way as well. If they aren't, then it's not your fault and you can just hang back and wait, but I do think it would go a long way to improving your relationship with your husband to ensure that he knows that you ultimately WANT to rebuild that relationship with his family, and are willing to take any reasonable steps towards doing so. Honestly if he believes you are fully opposed to any future relationship with them, then it makes sense that he might choose to interact with them without you so much. I bet he might be more willing to push his family to move towards forgiveness as well if you indicated you were willing to meet them half way.

Ultimately, I think it's essential if the marriage is to survive long term, as in more than a couple years. Short term people will want to be stubborn, or will need time to "get over" the past, but if either party is 100% unwilling to work at it, then I think the marriage will be doomed.

4. Last thing, you guys needs to establish boundaries, obviously. You both need to sit down together (preferably with a therapist) and literally list what these boundaries will be, and hold both of you to them.


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## Orange_Pekoe

cdbaker said:


> You've got to remember that men and women communicate VERY differently and we have VERY different needs. For many years I didn't understand this fully, and my marriage with my wife suffered enormously. A few thoughts that might be helpful for you...
> 
> 1. We men don't understand women to begin with. They like to complain a lot, about everything they can think of, large and small. My wife can get just as angry/worked up over a funny look she thinks the neighbor gave her (a minor issue, if it's a real issue at all), as she can over telling me that she wants to quit her job. (A major issue) We also know that women are very emotional, and a massive over-the-top problem one day is no big deal a day later. PMS is mixed in there somewhere as well... We guys like to fix problems too, but VERY often it would seem that women don't want our help with fixing the problems they complain about. They just want us to listen, and nod our head. This confuses and bewilders us to no end. We don't complain about a problem to someone (our spouse or otherwise) unless we are asking for their help, or want them to solve the problem. Ultimately, all of this trains a lot of us men to not trust our interpretation of our wives reactions, and to some degree, take their complaints with a grain of salt, because we don't know how serious of an issue it is to her, if she actually wants us to do anything about it or not, or if it's not going to be important to her anyway five minutes later.
> 
> This is why you see so often here on TAM stories of men coming here saying, "Holy cow! My wife just said she's leaving me/kicking me out/filing for divorce! This came completely out of the blue!" In truth, their wives probably tried to get through to them for a very long time, but felt ignored or that they didn't care. Really, it's a communication issue. If I'm sick and tired of my wife leaving dirty clothes all the floor, I'm going to tell her I'm tired of picking up her dirty clothes and she needs to be responsible/respectful and use the hamper. But if my wife is sick and tired of picking up my dirty clothes left on the floor, she's going to try to think of a way to "relay the message" to me in a passive roundabout way. She might say, "Ouch my foot really hurts, I tripped over your clothes on the floor when I got up this morning..." or "Our room is always a mess!" or something similar. Then they call us thick-skulled when we don't get the message, haha. We men need DIRECT communication.
> 
> 2. I think you also have a problem with expectations. Expectations can ruin any marriage, easily, and will both spouses feeling like the other is crazily unreasonable. For instance, I bet your husband's parents (or one of them at least) were very accustomed to living with or nearby their parents when they became adults and got married and started their family. If they grow up constantly surrounded by their grandparents, aunts and uncles, cousins, etc., then they are going to view that as completely normal, and anything else will be viewed as abnormal and unreasonable. For me, I grew up as a military brat living all over the country and the world. I saw my grandparents/aunts/uncles/cousins once every few years. For my wife however, she and her family lived in the same town her whole life, and saw her extended family every week or so as a result. So she feels an extreme need to see her family frequently, and can't imagine moving away from them, while I have no desire whatsoever to do so many activities and visits with extended family. That was her expectation though, that's what she felt was normal, and I was being unreasonable by thinking she was with them too much, or that I didn't care about her by not wanting to tag along every time. It took us some time to figure out what the problem was, which is that we both have grown up with different ideas of what marriage is, what spousal roles should be, and understand that we need to respect our differences and control our expectations.
> 
> It might help for him to get some 3rd party perspectives for what is reasonable, whether from friends or a therapist. I think it's unreasonable for him to spend multiple days a week with his family, ESPECIALLY if they are not getting along with you.
> 
> 3. This brings me to another concern, which Gus highlighted above. I don't see how your relationship will improve while his family is still relationally opposed to you AND while your husband allows it to some degree. When my wife and I separated, most members of my family really turned against her, which is probably not unusual at all. She's my wife however, so it's my responsibility to stand up for her and defend her, EVEN when she doesn't necessarily deserve it every given time. Especially when we decided to reconcile, I had to made crystal clear to my family and to my wife who my allegiance was to, which wasn't easy for them to take. Anytime they invited me over for dinner or for an activity, if my wife wasn't invited then I declined the invite, period. In my view, if I agreed to attend an event with them in which my wife was not invited, I was effectively telling her that they are more important to me than she is, and I'm supporting my family's hurtful position by giving them exactly what they want. They fought me on it, but I never budged. It's completely their choice if they don't want to put any effort into rebuilding their relationships with my wife, but it's equally my choice to not interact with them under those circumstances too. It took a year or so, but eventually they all came on board and they all get along great with my wife now, despite our rocky past.
> 
> Part two of that however, is that I also expected my wife to be extremely receptive to my family if/when they opened up to her. It would not be ok for her to cross her arms and demand that they come to her, apologize for anything, etc. If she wanted to be my wife again (vs. continue separated or get divorced, which were options of course) then she needed to respect my family as well and make every REASONABLE effort to get along with them and rebuild her relationships with them, when they are stepping forward and being reasonable as well. My concern here is that you seem to be indicating that you have no willingness to get along with them, or desire to rebuild relationships with them. I know it was important for our marriage that my wife wanted to rebuild that with my family, if they would cooperate, which they eventually did. I think you should WANT to try to reconnect with them, as long as they are being reasonable and meeting you half way as well. If they aren't, then it's not your fault and you can just hang back and wait, but I do think it would go a long way to improving your relationship with your husband to ensure that he knows that you ultimately WANT to rebuild that relationship with his family, and are willing to take any reasonable steps towards doing so. Honestly if he believes you are fully opposed to any future relationship with them, then it makes sense that he might choose to interact with them without you so much. I bet he might be more willing to push his family to move towards forgiveness as well if you indicated you were willing to meet them half way.
> 
> Ultimately, I think it's essential if the marriage is to survive long term, as in more than a couple years. Short term people will want to be stubborn, or will need time to "get over" the past, but if either party is 100% unwilling to work at it, then I think the marriage will be doomed.
> 
> 4. Last thing, you guys needs to establish boundaries, obviously. You both need to sit down together (preferably with a therapist) and literally list what these boundaries will be, and hold both of you to them.


cdbaker, thank you for taking time and putting a lot of thought in to your reply.

You mentioned my husband should probably get a 3rd party perspective from family or friends about what amount of visits to his family are "reasonable". He won't do this. He is only open to getting advice from his mother, brother and his uncle. His mother/brother are part of the problem (obviously) as they encourage him to come over even though he sees them every day. For example, he spent Tues. and Wedns. evening with them last week, and Thurs. he said his mom invited him for dinner. It hurt my feelings. I was upset at her but more upset at him for not declining.
His uncle is more "normal" and would give him the kind of advice I would give to a friend. But I've learnt not to rely on his family to help me.

You stood up for your wife when you decided to reconcile. You told your family, "she's my wife and where I'm invited, she must be invited." My husband does not do this. When we were married, living together with his family and everything was OK, he didn't do this either. He would go to family events with his mom/sister and not take me, even when I told him it hurt my feelings. 

When we reconciled, I hate intense dislike toward his family and felt very hurt by them. But I decided to put all that aside, for my husband and daughter's sake, and turn a new leaf. I visited them. His mom was civil, his brother and sister acted as if I didn't exist. I was really offended. They did not meet me halfway. When we called to let them know we wanted to visit, my husband used my cell phone...we called literally 6 times with my phone and they did not pick up. Then he called using his phone and his mom picked up. She told him she was on the other line...but I highly doubt it. Then they told us they were going somewhere in the evening, so we visited them the next day. Long story short - I tried. They didn't. And haven't since. That's why I tell my husband, I will no longer make an effort to build a relationship with them unless they show that they want one. I am not going to go to them again, only to have them belittle me. If they reached out to me, I would not be unwilling to work with them. The problem is they have not reached out to me and most likely never will, and my husband is part of that...he has not asked them to be kind to me.

It might help to know why I dislike his family. We used to live with them, it was a toxic living situation and there were many hurt feelings on both sides. I kept asking my husband to move out and get our own place but he refused. His mom and brother expected us to live with them and completely ignored the issue even though I requested everyone to have a family meeting and talk about it. When we'd argue, my husband would scream at me in front of them...he didn't stand up for me when he saw them mistreating me. It was chaotic, toxic, totally unhealthy. I became depressed. One day our argument got so bad, because I decided that enough was enough and I yelled back when he yelled at me...so he tried to kick me out of the house. I left him the next day by packing up all my stuff and leaving while he was at work. He begged me to come back but I said - only if we no longer live with your family, I want our own place. He said he had a responsibility to his family...so we stayed apart for a year. He spent all his money on them. I truly and honestly believe his mom and sister would have been happy if we had gotten a divorce. Now that we are together, they still use every opportunity to take up his time and do not respect our need to focus on our reconciliation. But saying all this...I realize I didn't have an in law issue. I had (and still have) a husband issue. Because my husband could have prevented all this if we had gotten our own place a long time ago.

I have requested to go to counselling together many times. He's not open to it. So I go on my own.

If my husband was the type of man to stand up for his wife, who was brave enough to set limits with his family and take care of us as a family unit, we wouldn't have gotten separated in the first place.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Openminded said:


> He is who he is. And who he is, unfortunately, is not who you want him to be. Yes, tomorrow he will cry and beg you -- again -- to take him back. If you do, that pattern is very likely to continue because he knows it works. He's good at manipulating you and he is well aware of it. He plans to live his life as he chooses and he expects you to eventually abide by all his wishes. There's a religious element of control that's obvious. And that's unlikely to change.
> 
> The problem is that your daughter is getting older. Children are never as clueless as their parents think. She will become aware of those arguments and what they mean and especially as they relate to how her father views her mother's place in the world. What kind of message will she take away.


My counsellor has stressed that we need to protect our daughter from our verbal conflicts, because it will scare her. So when he raises his voice I remind him to consider the fact she's there. Or we wait until she's asleep.

But yesterday he just wouldn't stop yelling. It's not the first time and it won't be the last. Our daughter was quiet but I could see she was afraid. Finally, she got up really close to me and said, "I'm scared." It broke my heart. She doesn't deserve that.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Mr.Fisty said:


> A healthy social life is important in a child's development. The better a child can communicate, interact, affects mental health, brain connectivity, and there are other benefits.
> 
> Not to mention you want to raise an intelligent, independent person, someone unlike the members of his family.
> 
> Remember what I said about change, it takes a long time to effect it. What you had was the phase where he tried pleasing you to keep the attachment. Love is a drive, and we take actions to keep it. Once he feels safe, he feels less motivated, and without real help, he will not change. Your relationship will continue on this cycle of dysfunction. You will be drawn time and time again to the good and wait for the bad periods to detach. Not a healthy environment for either you or your daughter.
> 
> You may love him, but that does not mean that he is good for either of you.
> 
> I personally think you should detach, and not let him back until you either move on, or he starts seeing a therapist. Even then, he has to sustain it for at least a year.
> 
> If your goal is life stability and fulfillment, you really need to take a look at what your partner is capable of in a relationship. If your goal is to stay married to him, you have to take the negative that comes along. Again, love does not mean correct. You can love a narcissist for an example and not receive the love in return. If it is not giving him his way, then it will be constant fights to establish boundaries. And he has a propensity to push that.
> 
> Will it be another long term separation before he comes crawling back again? You do need to have a line in the sand somewhere or you will keep allowing this to occur and your fear is holding you back. Imagine if your daughter learn this type of behavior from you. At least without him, you can start by not being in constant bad moods. Then, at least you can limit your focus to you and your daughter. He is taking away mental and emotional energy that you can place elsewhere.
> 
> If you separate from him again, take the steps to make your own life better. His influence on your life is not exactly positive.
> 
> Honestly, you both want different things and you both are trying to force each other into the mold you want each other to be. You cannot accept him for who he is and the same goes for him. Logically, you have to let him go. BTW, what you want is healthier over all since the goal of life is for offspring to become independent. If you allow your fear to control yoour actions, then you take blame for how your daughter turns out, why your own life is the way it is, because I promise you this, he seems incapable of breaking the cycle. How much time must go by, and now you have to start the detachment portion again. Until you are ready to follow through, all your anger and complaining will be just noise. And what I mean is five years down the road, ten years, you will still be stuck on a message forum, venting your frustration. And as your daughter gets older, this will be her norm, drama.


I woke up this morning and it took a minute or so for me to remember what happened yesterday, and that my husband wasn't there. I felt sad and needed support, so I logged in and saw your message. You are right that all my anger and complaining is just noise, until/unless I take action to stop the cycle. You were right months ago when you said that if I take him back, he will just leave each time we have a big argument. If I stay with him and accept him the way he is, it will be unhappy cohabitation...and our daughter might end up hating both of us for the constant drama. Or she might look at me as the controlling wife who won't just let her dad be who he needs to be. Or she might blame me for staying with him despite the conflict.

Today, I feel light. I feel as if a big weight has been lifted from my shoulders. This doesn't make me a bad person...it makes me realize how unhappy I have been!


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## survive_to_die

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I woke up this morning and it took a minute or so for me to remember what happened yesterday, and that my husband wasn't there. I felt sad and needed support, so I logged in and saw your message. You are right that all my anger and complaining is just noise, until/unless I take action to stop the cycle. You were right months ago when you said that if I take him back, he will just leave each time we have a big argument. If I stay with him and accept him the way he is, it will be unhappy cohabitation...and our daughter might end up hating both of us for the constant drama. Or she might look at me as the controlling wife who won't just let her dad be who he needs to be. Or she might blame me for staying with him despite the conflict.
> 
> Today, I feel light. I feel as if a big weight has been lifted from my shoulders. This doesn't make me a bad person...it makes me realize how unhappy I have been!


My wife took years to realize this, then left me and made it clear that she was done and moving on (even open to dating other men in the possibly near future). She moved to a different city, stayed with her grandmother and started school full-time - which she had wanting to do for a while. She made connections with old female friends, went out, had fun and was free from the burden of our unhealthy relationship and all of the emotion stress I created for her.

I think in the last year she's found a lot of contentment, happiness and freedom to be an individual. Basically to not need me or the marriage.

The place you reach is that after enough time of actually being seriously separated - for good - you learn to not need the other person. They aren't your happiness. But you can still want to be with them. Wanting to be with a spouse as opposed to needing to be with them is a WAY better catalyst for change, in my opinion.


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## Orange_Pekoe

survive_to_die said:


> My wife took years to realize this, then left me and made it clear that she was done and moving on (even open to dating other men in the possibly near future). She moved to a different city, stayed with her grandmother and started school full-time - which she had wanting to do for a while. She made connections with old female friends, went out, had fun and was free from the burden of our unhealthy relationship and all of the emotion stress I created for her.
> 
> I think in the last year she's found a lot of contentment, happiness and freedom to be an individual. Basically to not need me or the marriage.
> 
> The place you reach is that after enough time of actually being seriously separated - for good - you learn to not need the other person. They aren't your happiness. But you can still want to be with them. Wanting to be with a spouse as opposed to needing to be with them is a WAY better catalyst for change, in my opinion.


This is true.
I thought I had reached that point during our last separation, but I realize now that I hadn't. Yes, I made drastic changes (found a new great job, lived with my parents the first 6 months, then moved into a condo with my daughter, bought all furniture/items from scratch, made new friends etc.). But the whole time, I cried about how heartbroken I was that my marriage had/was ending, upset that we weren't successfully reconciling, and so forth. I had not moved on. I had focused on my husband and our marital problems the entire time. And I turned anybody who was willing to listen in to my personal therapist...which meant I also got a lot of feedback (some wanted, some unwanted).

This time, I don't need to justify myself to anyone. And I know my husband tried his best and so did I.


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## brooklynAnn

Orange, what are you going to do now?


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## Orange_Pekoe

brooklynAnn said:


> Orange, what are you going to do now?


I am not sure.

A transition to being separated for good, co-parenting our daughter and maintaining a positive friendship between us is ideal. I hope we can do that.

I'm afraid of when he will come back and cries or begs for me not to end the marriage. I hope I'll be strong. I'll have to be very strong, knowing I will not have my parents' emotional support this time around.

I'll keep my mouth shut, too. With the exception of this forum, my counsellor and my sister.


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## survive_to_die

Orange_Pekoe said:


> This is true.
> This time, I don't need to justify myself to anyone. And I know my husband tried his best and so did I.


:iagree:


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## brooklynAnn

I would have all his things nicely packed and waiting. When he comes in have the "you know we were heading this way" talk and ask him to move out. I am sure he was expecting this at some point. He cant be that clueless.

Stay strong. Don't get emotional now, just state the facts and what you had expected and needed. Let him know while he did made an effort, it's not enough. It's time to move on. Be great parents to your daughter. 

I wish you both good luck. I hope you finally get peace and happiness. At least, you wouldn't have to worry where he is at and why he is not home with you guys. Because he will be with mum and bro.


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## cdbaker

I just read your response, and here are a few more thoughts for you.

First, I wouldn't assume that things will never change, or that people can't change. They change if they want to change. His family probably doesn't want to change, but your husband might if the situation demands that it change, one way or the other. (For instance, if it's made clear to him that he can have a divorce and remain attached at the hip to his family, or he can have a loving wife and new family together, but not both simultaneously.)

Second, I wouldn't assume that your husband hasn't been trying to get them to open up to you and be nice. I know for me, I went to great lengths initially to try to get my family to be nice to my wife, treat her well, be more welcoming, etc. Our situation was a bit different, because both my wife and I were really bad spouses before we separated. (She cheated on me several times in rapid succession, and I was kind of an ******* husband) So in a sense, they had good, legitimate reasons for being so unhappy and unwelcoming towards my wife. From their perspective, she cheated on me, she hurt their son/brother, why should they welcome her back? I had to explain many times that we were both crappy spouses, and had forgiven each other, that she wanted to rebuild her relations with them, and it was up to them if they were willing to forgive and move on or not. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised at all if your husband has tried to explain that to them as well.

The other important part of that however is that he would need to reinforce it. If they don't really like you, then they certainly don't care to spend time with you either, they naturally only want your husband to come over and spend time with them right? Doing so however is effectively him choosing them over you, and rewarding their indifference/negatively towards you by giving them what they want. So for him to do the right thing, he needs to make clear to them that they need to respect his wife if they want him involved in their lives, and that means also including you in everything he is asked to be involved with as well. This took my family a while to swallow, and I skipped a number of events because of it.

Meanwhile, I told my wife none of this, or as little as I could. I didn't want her to know that most members of my family didn't like her anymore or wanted nothing to do with her. I didn't want her to hear that, and I certainly didn't want her to know that events were taking place that we would normally be invited to but weren't because they were intentionally excluding her. I wouldn't have wanted her to feel bad or guilty for me missing things either for her sake. This went for our daughter as well, who would be invited to things but usually I didn't allow it unless all of us were invited. So I would say it's possible, POSSIBLE, that your husband could be in this situation?


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## Mr.Fisty

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I woke up this morning and it took a minute or so for me to remember what happened yesterday, and that my husband wasn't there. I felt sad and needed support, so I logged in and saw your message. You are right that all my anger and complaining is just noise, until/unless I take action to stop the cycle. You were right months ago when you said that if I take him back, he will just leave each time we have a big argument. If I stay with him and accept him the way he is, it will be unhappy cohabitation...and our daughter might end up hating both of us for the constant drama. Or she might look at me as the controlling wife who won't just let her dad be who he needs to be. Or she might blame me for staying with him despite the conflict.
> 
> Today, I feel light. I feel as if a big weight has been lifted from my shoulders. This doesn't make me a bad person...it makes me realize how unhappy I have been!



You are like the majority of us in a bad situation with someone you love and the circumstances are not a desireable one. With love, it takes more and more negative events to teach us to detach.

You have an emotional attachment to this situation where as a neutral party, I have little to none invested. To make your choice easier, there needs to be some detachment.

It also is effective in making more logical choices.

Love hurts, in which we allow more hurt from a love one than a stranger.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Mr.Fisty said:


> You are like the majority of us in a bad situation with someone you love and the circumstances are not a desireable one. With love, it takes more and more negative events to teach us to detach.
> 
> You have an emotional attachment to this situation where as a neutral party, I have little to none invested. To make your choice easier, there needs to be some detachment.
> 
> It also is effective in making more logical choices.
> 
> Love hurts, in which we allow more hurt from a love one than a stranger.


The logical move is to choose the situation that will cause less day-to-day pain for me. And that means being separated. Because our co-habitation has great points, yes, but also a lot of arguments and negative points. Like you said, at least living by myself, I won't be in a bad mood constantly. I hope this is also the best scenario for my daughter. As any parent knows, I really don't want to screw up her chances at a happy, peaceful upbringing.

Do good, fulfilling, dare-I-say "happy" marriages exist? I'm truly starting to believe that they don't. People who manage to stay together, find a way to simply accept/put up with the negative points, and make the most of the good.

Is there such a thing as an open-minded spouse who is trustworthy, with good communication skills, who puts his/her marriage and partner first, and takes initiative to improve their life in every way? And if they do, do such spouses come with a good set of welcoming in-laws? Or is my head in the clouds and I'm giving up on a marriage that I should be fighting tooth and nail for? I don't think I have it in me to fight for this anymore. I'm tired of packing and unpacking his things. I'm also tired of not being able to rely on him. I'm tired of the scared, angry person who comes out when he does something that makes me feel unhappy or reminds me of the past.


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## Orange_Pekoe

cdbaker said:


> I just read your response, and here are a few more thoughts for you.
> 
> First, I wouldn't assume that things will never change, or that people can't change. They change if they want to change. His family probably doesn't want to change, but your husband might if the situation demands that it change, one way or the other. (For instance, if it's made clear to him that he can have a divorce and remain attached at the hip to his family, or he can have a loving wife and new family together, but not both simultaneously.)
> 
> Second, I wouldn't assume that your husband hasn't been trying to get them to open up to you and be nice. I know for me, I went to great lengths initially to try to get my family to be nice to my wife, treat her well, be more welcoming, etc. Our situation was a bit different, because both my wife and I were really bad spouses before we separated. (She cheated on me several times in rapid succession, and I was kind of an ******* husband) So in a sense, they had good, legitimate reasons for being so unhappy and unwelcoming towards my wife. From their perspective, she cheated on me, she hurt their son/brother, why should they welcome her back? I had to explain many times that we were both crappy spouses, and had forgiven each other, that she wanted to rebuild her relations with them, and it was up to them if they were willing to forgive and move on or not. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised at all if your husband has tried to explain that to them as well.
> 
> The other important part of that however is that he would need to reinforce it. If they don't really like you, then they certainly don't care to spend time with you either, they naturally only want your husband to come over and spend time with them right? Doing so however is effectively him choosing them over you, and rewarding their indifference/negatively towards you by giving them what they want. So for him to do the right thing, he needs to make clear to them that they need to respect his wife if they want him involved in their lives, and that means also including you in everything he is asked to be involved with as well. This took my family a while to swallow, and I skipped a number of events because of it.
> 
> Meanwhile, I told my wife none of this, or as little as I could. I didn't want her to know that most members of my family didn't like her anymore or wanted nothing to do with her. I didn't want her to hear that, and I certainly didn't want her to know that events were taking place that we would normally be invited to but weren't because they were intentionally excluding her. I wouldn't have wanted her to feel bad or guilty for me missing things either for her sake. This went for our daughter as well, who would be invited to things but usually I didn't allow it unless all of us were invited. So I would say it's possible, POSSIBLE, that your husband could be in this situation?


I'm sorry to hear that you and your wife went through such difficult times, but I am glad that things are healed now and you were able to move on. 

I can't guess at what my husband has/hasn't told his family. I have no contact with them. From what my husband has told me or shown me, he has never asked them to respect me. If he sees disrespect from them, he ignores it or (if I complain) he makes an excuse for them. 

There are no consequences to his family if they disrespect me. I say this with confidence and experience from the past.


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## cdbaker

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I'm sorry to hear that you and your wife went through such difficult times, but I am glad that things are healed now and you were able to move on.
> 
> I can't guess at what my husband has/hasn't told his family. I have no contact with them. From what my husband has told me or shown me, he has never asked them to respect me. If he sees disrespect from them, he ignores it or (if I complain) he makes an excuse for them.
> 
> There are no consequences to his family if they disrespect me. I say this with confidence and experience from the past.


Ultimately, you've got to get him to understand how important it is that your husband choose you over them.

Obviously I don't mean that from a controlling/manipulative angle, where someone could tell their spouse to cut off their family entirely "or else". Well, unless their a scientologist?

I mean that if they are going to retain that extreme negativity and foul treatment of you, his wife, then he needs to make clear to them that it is unacceptable and inform them that he will not engage with them beyond a superficial level, and certainly not expose them to you, until they can accept you and treat you with respect. I didn't completely cut off my family. If they texted with questions, I responded. We'd send them photos of our daughter. We didn't unfriend them on facebook. I certainly didn't treat them negatively. It just meant that I turned down any invitation that didn't include my wife. I didn't invite them to anything unless I had a solid commitment from them to treat her with respect, including events related to our daughter. It's not about punishing them or "getting even" with them. I treated them with perfect politeness and cordiality. I just made it clear that they have choices available to them just as I do, and I will choose to not interact with them in any way that might put my wife in an uncomfortable position. I made sure they understood that this could change at any time if they chose to change their positions. Eventually it worked just fine.

And honestly, I'm not sure if our marriage could have been saved if I hadn't done this. I remember when the affairs first came out, and I first wanted to recover from that and save the marriage when my wife felt that it was utterly hopeless and beyond saving. One of the very first reasons she gave for why was that regardless of my own actions that contributed to the breakdown of the marriage, her having cheated on me would likely mean that my entire family would never forgive her and it would be awkward and uncomfortable for all of us forever if we did reconcile. That's a HUGE issue, especially for women I think. So it was that much more important that I remove that issue from the table.

Really this should be true in any situation where someone who is close to you is disrespectful, mean, unwelcoming, etc. towards your spouse. Regardless of whether there were marital issues or a separation or whatever. If my best friend just really doesn't like my girlfriend for whatever reason, that's not a big deal as long as he isn't too overt about it. Once I marry her however, he needs to get on board and be respectful of her, if for no other reason than out of respect for me as his friend. If he can't do that however, then it's my responsibility to establish that my wife is my priority, and if he can't be courteous and respectful towards her (and by extension, me as well), then I can't continue to associate with him until he changes his mind. Yes that friend, or that family member is very important to me, but it has to be made clear to my spouse that she is the #1 person in my life. She should never have to doubt that.


So really, he's got to understand all of this. How you can go about helping to make that happen... I'm not sure. I'd start with marriage counseling, INSISTING on it, and hopefully that counselor will help you both figure this stuff out. Being close with your family isn't that big of a deal, and if simply spending a little less time with them is required, he can probably handle that. Allowing them to continue their foul treatment of you long term however isn't all that different from him agreeing with them. Like if his sibling came up to you and punched you in the face. If he doesn't immediately intervene and make REALLY darn clear how unacceptable that is (whether by punching him/her back, shoving them away, yelling, etc.) and instead just allows it, isn't that exactly the same as him basically acknowledging that he is comfortable with him/her punching you in the face?


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

cdbaker said:


> Ultimately, you've got to get him to understand how important it is that your husband choose you over them.
> 
> Obviously I don't mean that from a controlling/manipulative angle, where someone could tell their spouse to cut off their family entirely "or else". Well, unless their a scientologist?
> 
> I mean that if they are going to retain that extreme negativity and foul treatment of you, his wife, then he needs to make clear to them that it is unacceptable and inform them that he will not engage with them beyond a superficial level, and certainly not expose them to you, until they can accept you and treat you with respect. I didn't completely cut off my family. If they texted with questions, I responded. We'd send them photos of our daughter. We didn't unfriend them on facebook. I certainly didn't treat them negatively. It just meant that I turned down any invitation that didn't include my wife. I didn't invite them to anything unless I had a solid commitment from them to treat her with respect, including events related to our daughter. It's not about punishing them or "getting even" with them. I treated them with perfect politeness and cordiality. I just made it clear that they have choices available to them just as I do, and I will choose to not interact with them in any way that might put my wife in an uncomfortable position. I made sure they understood that this could change at any time if they chose to change their positions. Eventually it worked just fine.
> 
> And honestly, I'm not sure if our marriage could have been saved if I hadn't done this. I remember when the affairs first came out, and I first wanted to recover from that and save the marriage when my wife felt that it was utterly hopeless and beyond saving. One of the very first reasons she gave for why was that regardless of my own actions that contributed to the breakdown of the marriage, her having cheated on me would likely mean that my entire family would never forgive her and it would be awkward and uncomfortable for all of us forever if we did reconcile. That's a HUGE issue, especially for women I think. So it was that much more important that I remove that issue from the table.
> 
> Really this should be true in any situation where someone who is close to you is disrespectful, mean, unwelcoming, etc. towards your spouse. Regardless of whether there were marital issues or a separation or whatever. If my best friend just really doesn't like my girlfriend for whatever reason, that's not a big deal as long as he isn't too overt about it. Once I marry her however, he needs to get on board and be respectful of her, if for no other reason than out of respect for me as his friend. If he can't do that however, then it's my responsibility to establish that my wife is my priority, and if he can't be courteous and respectful towards her (and by extension, me as well), then I can't continue to associate with him until he changes his mind. Yes that friend, or that family member is very important to me, but it has to be made clear to my spouse that she is the #1 person in my life. She should never have to doubt that.
> 
> 
> So really, he's got to understand all of this. How you can go about helping to make that happen... I'm not sure. I'd start with marriage counseling, INSISTING on it, and hopefully that counselor will help you both figure this stuff out. Being close with your family isn't that big of a deal, and if simply spending a little less time with them is required, he can probably handle that. Allowing them to continue their foul treatment of you long term however isn't all that different from him agreeing with them. Like if his sibling came up to you and punched you in the face. If he doesn't immediately intervene and make REALLY darn clear how unacceptable that is (whether by punching him/her back, shoving them away, yelling, etc.) and instead just allows it, isn't that exactly the same as him basically acknowledging that he is comfortable with him/her punching you in the face?


I completely get what you're saying.
The thing is, he will not done it. Or at least, he has not done it up to this point, even though he's had ample opportunity and reason to.

For example, with your last analogy (if his sibling punches me and he doesn't intervene, punch back, yell etc. then it means he's comfortable with it and it's acceptable behaviour to him). This actually did happen with us. His brother didn't punch me, but he did scream and hit the walls. My husband didn't defend me.

That's why I say, I don't have an in-law issue. I have a husband issue. If my husband stood up for me, his family would fall in line.

It is a HUGE issue that my relationship with his family is so broken.


----------



## survive_to_die

Orange_Pekoe said:


> That's why I say, I don't have an in-law issue. I have a husband issue. If my husband stood up for me, his family would fall in line.
> 
> It is a HUGE issue that my relationship with his family is so broken.


I think humans have a tendency to make mistakes because our timelines are so near-sighted. Our emotions can be so strong and volatile short-term and we make short-term decisions to try and remove these emotions immediately. Most of us on these forums are finding or have found ourselves in highly volatile situations and are desperate for answers and resolutions to our current state of extreme emotional turmoil.

No matter what awaits you in the future, now's the time for you to focus on your mental and physical health. Most long-time users will suggest doing some form of the 180 which is a way to protect and rebuild yourself emotionally and physically. A lot of people will claim that it has a side-effect of sending a message to your spouse about who you are and what they're choosing to abandon should they continue.

It sounds like your husband wants to be a good man. It sounds like he might have a lot more going on in his head that he is willing to tell you or accept the help of a therapist with. I wouldn't assume he just goes through the day without a care in the world regarding what's happening to you or your relationship. BUT ultimately it's up to you to guard and nourish your own health.

We're all in a very uneasy and constant state of trying to shape a future that no matter what we try, will remain uncertain at the end of the day. I try to keep hope alive in myself and let love drive my words and actions. Love for myself first, then my love for my wife. 

It's hard when you just want to grab your spouse, kiss them and say "this could all go away tomorrow if *WE* just did these few things". 

I'm still finding the pace to live at that lets me endure uncertainty while focusing on friends, my own family, my job. I've been so focused on trying to reconnect with my wife and whatever she's doing or thinking that I lost a lot of myself in the process. I stopped having hobbies, working out, eating and socializing.

The amazing thing is, once I started to regain those again for myself, my wife naturally liked being around me more. I know this isn't your first rodeo with separation and the like. Just sometimes it helps to not talk about resolving the issue at hand.

Have you ever tried kickboxing? :smile2:


----------



## brooklynAnn

Orange_Pekoe said:


> The logical move is to choose the situation that will cause less day-to-day pain for me. And that means being separated. Because our co-habitation has great points, yes, but also a lot of arguments and negative points. Like you said, at least living by myself, I won't be in a bad mood constantly. I hope this is also the best scenario for my daughter. As any parent knows, I really don't want to screw up her chances at a happy, peaceful upbringing.
> 
> Do good, fulfilling, dare-I-say "happy" marriages exist? I'm truly starting to believe that they don't. People who manage to stay together, find a way to simply accept/put up with the negative points, and make the most of the good.
> 
> Is there such a thing as an open-minded spouse who is trustworthy, with good communication skills, who puts his/her marriage and partner first, and takes initiative to improve their life in every way? And if they do, do such spouses come with a good set of welcoming in-laws? Or is my head in the clouds and I'm giving up on a marriage that I should be fighting tooth and nail for? I don't think I have it in me to fight for this anymore. I'm tired of packing and unpacking his things. I'm also tired of not being able to rely on him. I'm tired of the scared, angry person who comes out when he does something that makes me feel unhappy or reminds me of the past.


I have this. Because we work on it everyday. We make sure we respect and love each other. Don't say hurtful things to each. And we both have each other's back. I don't tolerate anyone saying anything bad about my husband. The same with him. He has my back and I have his.

I love my inlaws better than my own family. My MIL understand that my husband and I are a team, she loves how we take care of each other. She can be demanding but it passes over my head and my husband lets her have it when she gets crazy.

My husband only have brothers, so my SILs are by marriage. We get along great. MY oldest SIL can be a pain and back stabbing but I cut her out and when we see each other we are very warm and nice. But we don't hang out just us two. My BILs are very nice and I love them.
His aunts/uncles and cousins are the best. I would hate to have to give them up.

So, it's not a dream. A happy marriage needs lots of hard work to keep it that way. You cant be selfish and expect the other person to fall in line. You cant exclude them from your life. You cant put anybody ahead of your spouse and expect things to go well. Not even the kids.

The important thing is that you have to do what makes you happy and cause you the least pain. Your daughter would prefer a happy and well adjusted mum, to an unhappy one. You don't want her to think that this is the norm for marriages. What she sees at home is what she is going to accept as truth in her future.


----------



## survive_to_die

brooklynAnn said:


> I have this. Because we work on it everyday. We make sure we respect and love each other. Don't say hurtful things to each. And we both have each other's back. I don't tolerate anyone saying anything bad about my husband. The same with him. He has my back and I have his.
> 
> I love my inlaws better than my own family. My MIL understand that my husband and I are a team, she loves how we take care of each other. She can be demanding but it passes over my head and my husband lets her have it when she gets crazy.
> 
> My husband only have brothers, so my SILs are by marriage. We get along great. MY oldest SIL can be a pain and back stabbing but I cut her out and when we see each other we are very warm and nice. But we don't hang out just us two. My BILs are very nice and I love them.
> His aunts/uncles and cousins are the best. I would hate to have to give them up.
> 
> So, it's not a dream. A happy marriage needs lots of hard work to keep it that way. You cant be selfish and expect the other person to fall in line. You cant exclude them from your life. You cant put anybody ahead of your spouse and expect things to go well. Not even the kids.
> 
> The important thing is that you have to do what makes you happy and cause you the least pain. Your daughter would prefer a happy and well adjusted mum, to an unhappy one. You don't want her to think that this is the norm for marriages. What she sees at home is what she is going to accept as truth in her future.


I always felt like my in-laws had a tighter family bond, which I felt I lost when my grandfather and brother both dies within the same year when I was five. I started dating my wife when she was 15 and I was 17 and immediately loved how her family was very oriented around spending holidays and birthdays together. 

But there are usually trade-offs. For example, her family can be more inclusive, meaning they aren't as receptive off non-family. They are very defensive of outsiders that wrong their family. But again, I liked that protective "dont-mess-with-us" mentality. My family was more relaxed and included non-family members more readily, but sometimes that left me feeling like my feelings weren't as important as they should be. Like I wasn't being support enough when problems between myself and others in our church arose.



> Do good, fulfilling, dare-I-say "happy" marriages exist? I'm truly starting to believe that they don't. People who manage to stay together, find a way to simply accept/put up with the negative points, and make the most of the good.


Oh, they definitely do exist. My wife and I have been separated for a year and our communication, sex life, enjoyment around each other and overall personal happiness seems to be improving - this after 14 years of being together. If we make it through this time I believe we will truly be happy... but not because of each other. We found happiness apart from each other and it's magnified in each other's presence (at least for me it is and seems to be for her).

But I tore her to pieces emotionally with my selfishness and who I was a person. It changed our relationship forever and I believe we have to consider our marriage as dead. Whatever comes next, if we stay together and reconnect will be something new. I've had to face a lot of issues in myself that I've had since I was a pre-teen and this last year was the hardest year of my life to get through.

She has yet to confirm all of it, but I suspect she sees my changing as a chance for us to reconnect. Maybe it even proved to her that I could change, despite a 10 year marriage that would show I did not have the ability to. She's not perfect either, but her faults and flaws are normal. Mine were destructive, unhealthy and prevented me from ever being a good husband. I always worked very hard, sometimes multiple jobs. I bought her everything I could. I had a DEEP need and reliance on her, which is why I would always come crawling back and crying when I f**ked up. But I wasn't self-sufficient. I'm learning that now.

I believe a strong, successful relationship can only be had between two people that are self-sufficient and don't need each other. If one was out of the picture the other person could still thrive and prosper. But when they are together they want to be together. Their actions are based on wanting to be a better person for themselves AND because they see the value in how their best can bring out the best in their mate.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

survive_to_die said:


> I think humans have a tendency to make mistakes because our timelines are so near-sighted. Our emotions can be so strong and volatile short-term and we make short-term decisions to try and remove these emotions immediately. Most of us on these forums are finding or have found ourselves in highly volatile situations and are desperate for answers and resolutions to our current state of extreme emotional turmoil.
> 
> No matter what awaits you in the future, now's the time for you to focus on your mental and physical health. Most long-time users will suggest doing some form of the 180 which is a way to protect and rebuild yourself emotionally and physically. A lot of people will claim that it has a side-effect of sending a message to your spouse about who you are and what they're choosing to abandon should they continue.
> 
> It sounds like your husband wants to be a good man. It sounds like he might have a lot more going on in his head that he is willing to tell you or accept the help of a therapist with. I wouldn't assume he just goes through the day without a care in the world regarding what's happening to you or your relationship. BUT ultimately it's up to you to guard and nourish your own health.
> 
> We're all in a very uneasy and constant state of trying to shape a future that no matter what we try, will remain uncertain at the end of the day. I try to keep hope alive in myself and let love drive my words and actions. Love for myself first, then my love for my wife.
> 
> It's hard when you just want to grab your spouse, kiss them and say "this could all go away tomorrow if *WE* just did these few things".
> 
> I'm still finding the pace to live at that lets me endure uncertainty while focusing on friends, my own family, my job. I've been so focused on trying to reconnect with my wife and whatever she's doing or thinking that I lost a lot of myself in the process. I stopped having hobbies, working out, eating and socializing.
> 
> The amazing thing is, once I started to regain those again for myself, my wife naturally liked being around me more. I know this isn't your first rodeo with separation and the like. Just sometimes it helps to not talk about resolving the issue at hand.
> 
> Have you ever tried kickboxing? :smile2:


The last year or so, since my first separation started, I stressed out so much that I not only gained a lot of weight, I also created other health problems for myself.

I won't be doing that this time around. I really do need to focus on my health and wellbeing. After work I have a few hours to myself, so I will be at the gym running. Feels like there's a lot I need to run from.

I also believe my husband is trying to be a good man. But I believe the issues with his family, and him spending SO MUCH TIME with them, and not taking the steps necessary to make us stronger as a couple, is too much for both of us right now. It turned me in to a jealous, angry, critical, controlling person and he was stuck trying to deal with that. I just don't think it's normal for me to wake up at 5:30 AM and feel bad about the fact that he's left for his mom's house...wondering if he had breakfast there, got ready for work there? Instead of our own home?

Last time I tried to win him back. This time I won't. This time I really should move on.

The fact that you have your own friends, hobbies, and interests, which end up making you a happier and whole person, and therefore makes you more attractive to your wife...really makes a lot of sense. 

Kickboxing sounds really great right now.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

brooklynAnn said:


> I have this. Because we work on it everyday. We make sure we respect and love each other. Don't say hurtful things to each. And we both have each other's back. I don't tolerate anyone saying anything bad about my husband. The same with him. He has my back and I have his.
> 
> I love my inlaws better than my own family. My MIL understand that my husband and I are a team, she loves how we take care of each other. She can be demanding but it passes over my head and my husband lets her have it when she gets crazy.
> 
> My husband only have brothers, so my SILs are by marriage. We get along great. MY oldest SIL can be a pain and back stabbing but I cut her out and when we see each other we are very warm and nice. But we don't hang out just us two. My BILs are very nice and I love them.
> His aunts/uncles and cousins are the best. I would hate to have to give them up.
> 
> So, it's not a dream. A happy marriage needs lots of hard work to keep it that way. You cant be selfish and expect the other person to fall in line. You cant exclude them from your life. You cant put anybody ahead of your spouse and expect things to go well. Not even the kids.
> 
> The important thing is that you have to do what makes you happy and cause you the least pain. Your daughter would prefer a happy and well adjusted mum, to an unhappy one. You don't want her to think that this is the norm for marriages. What she sees at home is what she is going to accept as truth in her future.


Thank you for giving me some hope. I see examples of marriages around me and none of them truly seem to be "happy". 

I can't even imagine what it's like to have a spouse that has your back. Or in-laws that love us and aren't simply trying to take advantage of us. Isn't that sad?


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

survive_to_die said:


> I always felt like my in-laws had a tighter family bond, which I felt I lost when my grandfather and brother both dies within the same year when I was five. I started dating my wife when she was 15 and I was 17 and immediately loved how her family was very oriented around spending holidays and birthdays together.
> 
> But there are usually trade-offs. For example, her family can be more inclusive, meaning they aren't as receptive off non-family. They are very defensive of outsiders that wrong their family. But again, I liked that protective "dont-mess-with-us" mentality. My family was more relaxed and included non-family members more readily, but sometimes that left me feeling like my feelings weren't as important as they should be. Like I wasn't being support enough when problems between myself and others in our church arose.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, they definitely do exist. My wife and I have been separated for a year and our communication, sex life, enjoyment around each other and overall personal happiness seems to be improving - this after 14 years of being together. If we make it through this time I believe we will truly be happy... but not because of each other. We found happiness apart from each other and it's magnified in each other's presence (at least for me it is and seems to be for her).
> 
> But I tore her to pieces emotionally with my selfishness and who I was a person. It changed our relationship forever and I believe we have to consider our marriage as dead. Whatever comes next, if we stay together and reconnect will be something new. I've had to face a lot of issues in myself that I've had since I was a pre-teen and this last year was the hardest year of my life to get through.
> 
> She has yet to confirm all of it, but I suspect she sees my changing as a chance for us to reconnect. Maybe it even proved to her that I could change, despite a 10 year marriage that would show I did not have the ability to. She's not perfect either, but her faults and flaws are normal. Mine were destructive, unhealthy and prevented me from ever being a good husband. I always worked very hard, sometimes multiple jobs. I bought her everything I could. I had a DEEP need and reliance on her, which is why I would always come crawling back and crying when I f**ked up. But I wasn't self-sufficient. I'm learning that now.
> 
> I believe a strong, successful relationship can only be had between two people that are self-sufficient and don't need each other. If one was out of the picture the other person could still thrive and prosper. But when they are together they want to be together. Their actions are based on wanting to be a better person for themselves AND because they see the value in how their best can bring out the best in their mate.


It's clear that you have put A LOT of work in to self-reflection, and changing yourself so that you are a better person. This is the most any of us can hope for. When something tragic, such as a separation from loved one, occurs - it's really a blessing in disguise if we take advantage of it. Because it gives us a chance to look at what we were doing wrong, not just to the other person but also to ourselves! And even though we might not have control over the marriage, we at least can regain control of ourselves. And take steps toward a more fulfilling, peaceful life. 

You're becoming a more positive person. I think that's what your wife is attracted to.


----------



## survive_to_die

Orange_Pekoe said:


> It's clear that you have put A LOT of work in to self-reflection, and changing yourself so that you are a better person. This is the most any of us can hope for. When something tragic, such as a separation from loved one, occurs - it's really a blessing in disguise if we take advantage of it. Because it gives us a chance to look at what we were doing wrong, not just to the other person but also to ourselves! And even though we might not have control over the marriage, we at least can regain control of ourselves. And take steps toward a more fulfilling, peaceful life.
> 
> You're becoming a more positive person. I think that's what your wife is attracted to.


Thank you for your kind words.

Don't lose hope, be strong, be focused. Never forget that you'll be ok whatever the future brings.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

survive_to_die said:


> Thank you for your kind words.
> 
> Don't lose hope, be strong, be focused. Never forget that you'll be ok whatever the future brings.


I'm trying very hard.

Because this time around, I don't think he will come back and ask to get together again, either.
It's this very calm, very sad realization that we both did everything we could (within our own limits) to make the marriage work, but it still wasn't enough.


----------



## brooklynAnn

Did he return home or he is still at his mums?


----------



## Pluto2

Oh Orange, I'm sorry you are going through this. I know you'd love the situation to change. Its frustrating because so many posters here see that constructive strides could be made with the right marital counselor, but as you say, you can't force him to go. 

Of course it is possible that your H may change his thinking with this separation. Could I suggest that you make MC a condition to any attempts at future R, even an overight.....just to see his daughter. That's not being mean. That is providing a stable structure for your child. His coming and going is confusing and it will make this all more confusing for her.


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## Orange_Pekoe

He's still at his mom's. He did call me just now asking if I wanted to join him and our daughter at Chuck e Cheese's after work. But I'm working late and it's too far to drive after work.

I know he misses me. I miss him a lot too, it's lonely and super quiet at home. But I think we have to make marriage counselling a condition of getting back together...I agree with that. Secular marriage counselling with a professional.

Not only is his coming and going confusing my daughter, it's confusing us as a couple. It's not a stable relationship.

Like, I love him...I really really do. But he needs to man-up. When he does, I'll stop being so afraid all the time...it's fear that makes me controlling of him. Fear that he'll leave us again, fear that his family will take him away again, fear that we can't build a future together, fear that I'll just give up on him anyway if he doesn't change so "why bother".

My coworker recently told me that we have a tendency to put a really tight clasp on our marriages when things are rocky...when really we should be loosening our grip and letting the other person get room to breathe and be themselves. It's true but I'm battling constant jealousy of the amount of time he spends with his mom/siblings...it is so hard. I keep thinking "he should prove to me that he loves and cares about putting our relationship back on track by focusing on us, but he's so busy taking care of his mom/siblings all the time. It shouldn't be 50/50 at this point, it should be 90/10 in our favour. But it's not."


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## brooklynAnn

Orange, I feel for all of you. 

I don't think he will be the man you want. It is too ingrained in him, the relationship he has with his family. If he were to stop seeing them so much, it will affect him negatively.

You have got to learn how to be with him but without, if you want to stay married. You have to learn how to live your life and find your happiness and don't be depend on him to make you happy. So, when you are together you can be good and at peace, with what you have.

You are going have to get over all the pain from when you were living with his family. You have to learn how to get raid of these toxic relationships and memories. Just leave them behind. Stop giving them the power to hurt you. You cant influence them, so stop giving them so much power over you. At this time, you have given them the power to make you happy or unhappy. 

What do you think?


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

brooklynAnn said:


> Orange, I feel for all of you.
> 
> I don't think he will be the man you want. It is too ingrained in him, the relationship he has with his family. If he were to stop seeing them so much, it will affect him negatively.
> 
> You have got to learn how to be with him but without, if you want to stay married. You have to learn how to live your life and find your happiness and don't be depend on him to make you happy. So, when you are together you can be good and at peace, with what you have.
> 
> You are going have to get over all the pain from when you were living with his family. You have to learn how to get raid of these toxic relationships and memories. Just leave them behind. Stop giving them the power to hurt you. You cant influence them, so stop giving them so much power over you. At this time, you have given them the power to make you happy or unhappy.
> 
> What do you think?


We've been back together for 4 months and although I've made improvements in how I handle my resentments about the past and how I deal with his family, I'm still very unhappy. I haven't been able to accept (without anger or more resentment) how close he continues to be with them. The things I have been able to accept, I've done very hesitatingly and grudgingly...

And if I do manage to somehow accept it...

There is still the fact that one day we have to buy a home, and he will want to live 10 minutes away from them. I'll always dislike his family for hurting me. I'll always mistrust them. I'll be angry at myself for letting them back in to my life. I don't know if I would ever get past those feelings...

I will not have the patience or willingness to search for a home near his family, or take them in to consideration at all, or allow them to be a part of our home-buying process.

Also, my husband doesn't take initiative with us. Shouldn't he come to me and say, "Let's buy a home. Let's consider this-this-and-this area. Let's start the mortgage approval process. Let's do something to improve our life instead of living in limbo." He's just as scared as I am.

I don't know.


----------



## Openminded

Focus on decisions based more on logic and less on emotion. Yes, you love him and he loves you but love obviously doesn't solve problems (although it very often tends to create them). 

He wants his bio family in his life to an extent that few women would accept. Perhaps a non-religious therapist could help but IIRC he's refused in the past to see anyone not of your faith (who's considerably more likely to support his views than a non-religious therapist will). 

Permanent change is very difficult. Some people can ultimately change and some can't. Last time you let him move back in before things were completely worked out. That wasn't really good for you or your daughter. Be careful this time.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Openminded, I don't want to go to a religious counsellor because the last time we went, my husband ignored all the advice he was given. He only followed the advice if it was in his favour (and it wasn't). Also, the religious counsellor is not a professional in marital therapy, we need the guidance of a professional. And the therapist will not really be someone who will give us advice, but rather, someone who can help us build communication, trust and honesty in our relationship. Relationship skills.

I've explained all this to him previously, but he's not open to it.

He texted me a few times in the early morning the past few days, saying he loves us both (me and daughter). I love him too but every day he spends at his mom's house, my resolve strengthens. Maybe because by being there, he reinforces the idea in my head that he can never detach enough from his family for us to be a solid, strong family unit of our own. He doesn't have my back. We aren't on the same team. I can let resentments etc. go when it comes to HIM but I cannot let them go when it comes to his family - they have not taken any steps toward reconciliation. And after all I'm not just reconciling with my husband, I'm reconciling with his family and there's been no progress there and likely will never be.

I spent the weekend inviting my cousins over for dinner and a movie, and spending time catching up on rest and seeing my parents and siblings. I'm not stressing out like I did our last separation. I'm sad, but I'm not going to destroy my health.


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## lifeistooshort

Orange, I really think you're fighting a losing battle. I'm sure he loves you but he wants the kind of marriage he wants..... the one where he basically lives with his family and his wife is waiting as a convenience when it suits him.

That's why he ignores advice that doesn't suit him. He doesn't want a marriage where he had to compromise anything. His first priority is his bio family and he tries to figure out how to squeeze you in, but that's not how things work. 

He isn't hb material and I doubt that's going to change.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Orange_Pekoe

lifeistooshort said:


> Orange, I really think you're fighting a losing battle. I'm sure he loves you but he wants the kind of marriage he wants..... the one where he basically lives with his family and his wife is waiting as a convenience when it suits him.
> 
> That's why he ignores advice that doesn't suit him. He doesn't want a marriage where he had to compromise anything. His first priority is his bio family and he tries to figure out how to squeeze you in, but that's not how things work.
> 
> He isn't hb material and I doubt that's going to change.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I guess it's a cultural difference too - as well as his own family's culture. In their family, mom comes first. Then others.

Really, this is my fault. I married him having agreed to move in with his family.

He was changing, but it just wasn't enough.  And what wife wants to be marginalized in her own marriage? And looked upon as the black sheep? Why resolve myself to that fate? His family has to know that we are a "team" and my husband should ask them to show kindness toward me...it can't be all on me! He's put it all on me to show forgiveness, openness, kindness, etc. It's a two-way street.


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## kokonatsu

spectar said:


> They don't like you for a reason.
> 
> You need to be honest with yourself and figure out what you did to cause this.
> 
> You know if anyone asked them they'd be saying all sorts of things about you. In fact I'll bet they do talk about it with your husband, all the time and he's caught in the middle.
> 
> Just hope he doesn't acquiese to his families requests and turn around and dump you. It happens, believe me.


Sometimes you don't have to do anything for someone to dislike you. Sometimes other people take offense at the silliest things and blow everything out of proportion. (I'm trying to deal with something on these lines nowadays.)


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## Orange_Pekoe

spectar said:


> They don't like you for a reason.
> 
> You need to be honest with yourself and figure out what you did to cause this.
> 
> You know if anyone asked them they'd be saying all sorts of things about you. In fact I'll bet they do talk about it with your husband, all the time and he's caught in the middle.
> 
> Just hope he doesn't acquiese to his families requests and turn around and dump you. It happens, believe me.


I tried to find my original post but can't.

We lived with my in laws, I asked my husband to move out with me, he refused and so did his family. My choice was to either stay with him and hope things would change, or divorce him. I chose to stay. Dealt with emotional and verbal abuse from everyone. Got really depressed and stressed-out. Had a baby, baby had an illness, I lost my job, didn't have emotional support, and stress levels went through the roof. Until one day, he tried to kick me out of the house and I decided "enough was enough". I left him and his family and never went back.

His family tried to contact me and convince me to come back but I was not about to agree to more emotional/verbal abuse. I didn't speak with them.

A year later, my husband moved in with me but his family has ill feelings toward me and I toward them. So yeah, they have reasons for not liking me. They think I tried to separate my husband from them, and they feel I disrespected them for leaving the home. They don't think about what they did to cause my leaving. They also don't like me because I caused my husband pain by separating for a year.

I'd be really surprised if any posters who have followed my story from the beginning, would blame me for leaving his family behind. Although they did warn me that neither my husband nor his family had truly changed and I'd continue to be unhappy if I let him move in without a lot of marital counselling.

They were right.


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## Orange_Pekoe

spectar said:


> Kick his a$$ out again.
> 
> You gave him a chance and he blew it.
> 
> No more excuses.
> 
> Too bad you opted to have a baby in the midst of those stressful times, having a baby only makes things worse and now you're looking at a good possibility of being a single parent. Not the end of the world but it was potentially avoidable.


I can understand why you'd say that...but my daughter is a precious gift from God above and if I had the choice between going through it all over again just to have her in my life, I'd do it. I don't regret having her and never will. More than happy to live life as a single parent if it means I get to be her mom. 

Any time I feel the slightest bit sorry to myself, I look at her and realize it was worth it.  Just sad that I couldn't give her a life of two happy parents in one home and siblings.


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## Orange_Pekoe

He came over yesterday evening and brought me dinner. Then we sat down and he started a conversation about "where we are at". He asked what I wanted to do, and said his clothes and belongings are still in his car and that if I want to try again, he can bring his stuff inside.

I told him if we do that, the cycle will continue because we haven't resolved anything.

He started to lay down conditions of us being together. That I need to stop being jealous of the time he spends with his family, I have to be open to reconciliation with his family, and I have to accept the way he wants to raise our daughter. I let him talk because I realized everything he was saying was about what HE wants and he didn't consider my needs. Listening revealed a lot.

I told him I am open to reconciliation with his family, but THEY must show initiative. I did and they continue to shut me out so I won't be the one trying anymore. When they show they want a relationship, I will make effort as well. That started another revealing conversation that made me realize how very different we are.

He said he loves us and doesn't want a divorce, and that if I need time to think about it, he'll give it to me. I said I don't need time. I need a husband who is on my side and has my back. Not someone who sees me as his opponent. We aren't a team.

He stayed a few more minutes and then left.

I read posts on this forum, or I see other marriages, that aren't so great. People have serious problems like drug addictions, domestic abuse, infidelity. We don't have those - yet we are so stuck. Sometimes I wonder to myself why we just can't make it work? It all comes back to the fact that I have a bad relationship with his family, and he backs them up instead of me. And I can't get past it. Not to mention how different we are...he's on a path I cannot follow.


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## Roselyn

OP, your situation will not change. I have been where you are before. I decided to leave. My choice was to be childless and I realized how important it was for me to be financially independent. I left to go to graduate school to pursue my Ph.D. in another state. My husband followed. I've decided to leave an emotionally abusive environment.

Your in-laws are going to wreck havoc in your life if you let them. My in-laws reached for their son a year after we again moved to another state where I accepted a position. My husband did financed my graduate school. He re-invented his career over to accommodate mine. I am resolved that never again will I allow other individuals to define me nor abuse me psychologically.

As we aged, my husband and his father continued a rocky relationship. His father continued his behavior and that is, to control his son. Having them in another state did not affect me in the same way when we rented their guest house at the back of their residence. Today, I realized that my relationship with his parents would never change. You must leave him for your sake. You cannot be a good mother, given your present mindset.

Sorry that you are here.


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## Openminded

Those of us who told you when you decided to R that he wouldn't ever change who he is really wish we hadn't been right. 

He has told you exactly what he expects of you. It's up to you whether you can live that life or not. He will never change his mind about wanting a submissive wife. And submissive children.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Roselyn said:


> OP, your situation will not change. I have been where you are before. I decided to leave. My choice was to be childless and I realized how important it was for me to be financially independent. I left to go to graduate school to pursue my Ph.D. in another state. My husband followed. I've decided to leave an emotionally abusive environment.
> 
> Your in-laws are going to wreck havoc in your life if you let them. My in-laws reached for their son a year after we again moved to another state where I accepted a position. My husband did financed my graduate school. He re-invented his career over to accommodate mine. I am resolved that never again will I allow other individuals to define me nor abuse me psychologically.
> 
> As we aged, my husband and his father continued a rocky relationship. His father continued his behavior and that is, to control his son. Having them in another state did not affect me in the same way when we rented their guest house at the back of their residence. Today, I realized that my relationship with his parents would never change. You must leave him for your sake. You cannot be a good mother, given your present mindset.
> 
> Sorry that you are here.


I'm glad that you removed yourself from an emotionally toxic environment. My in-laws don't live with me anymore but they continue to make me unhappy...by making it super-duper clear that I'm not part of their family. It's hurtful. More hurtful to know my husband allows them to treat me that way.

I'm not sure I'm a good mother, regardless of whether I'm together with my husband or not. My self esteem is low at this point. I don't have the same motivation I had during our first separation. Everything's been replaced with a quiet sadness. I hope it passes.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Openminded said:


> Those of us who told you when you decided to R that he wouldn't ever change who he is really wish we hadn't been right.
> 
> He has told you exactly what he expects of you. It's up to you whether you can live that life or not. He will never change his mind about wanting a submissive wife. And submissive children.


I guess his family told him the same: That if he decides to reconcile, I wouldn't change who I am and would keep demanding things from him.

You're right about him telling me exactly what he expects of me. Last night I did something unusual for me which is: stop talking and just listen. I listened and listened and realized I could not live with what he offers.

At least this time, we'll remain friends.


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## Pluto2

You did a very wise thing by just listening to your H, and how sad that he came with his conditions to R, rather than approach your relationship as a team. It is clear that he wants you to make the accommodations his family wants, and well you know in your heart that you cannot live that way.

Do not ever doubt that you are a good mother. You provide a home for her, you are removing the primary source of strain in her world, and you are not depriving her of her father. That is being a good mother. Children thrive in a loving, stress-free environment and you absolutely can make that happen. And the simple fact that dad does not live with you changes nothing. You are also demonstrating to your daughter that she, as a woman, has value that cannot be marginalized by anyone else. Stand tall, Orange.


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## survive_to_die

I gave up religion and a close relationship with my family because of my wife... initially.

She realized she didn't believe the same anymore and that my family was controlling and judgmental based on the fact that my wife used to be a Christian and now is not one. Everything was based on "roles" and if the wife was being proper to the husband (their son). When my wife wasn't seen as being the "right kind of wife" she was judged extremely harshly and treated poorly.

As time went on I wanted peace with my wife so I distanced myself from the religion and family. After enough time had passed I came to realize that I actually felt more and more like my wife did on the issues and now we are on the same page. There were other problems I've mentioned that drove my wife to leave me, but I know the issue with in-laws is still a factor in her mind. Like, if her and I were ever together and had children, how would we handle my family and their desire to be around the children.

At this point I can say that my wife would always have priority and I would work around any problems with my family - maybe them seeing the children while only I was around? But even then, that's not an ideal situation for the children or my wife and I and would still be stressful. It all comes down to love and sacrifice.

The hope is that both spouses' love for each other is enough to overcome the sacrifices needed to make it through these situations we may not have created but would have to deal with. It seems like the fate of your future is in a similar balancing game.


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## Mr.Fisty

Orange_Pekoe said:


> The logical move is to choose the situation that will cause less day-to-day pain for me. And that means being separated. Because our co-habitation has great points, yes, but also a lot of arguments and negative points. Like you said, at least living by myself, I won't be in a bad mood constantly. I hope this is also the best scenario for my daughter. As any parent knows, I really don't want to screw up her chances at a happy, peaceful upbringing.
> 
> Do good, fulfilling, dare-I-say "happy" marriages exist? I'm truly starting to believe that they don't. People who manage to stay together, find a way to simply accept/put up with the negative points, and make the most of the good.
> 
> Is there such a thing as an open-minded spouse who is trustworthy, with good communication skills, who puts his/her marriage and partner first, and takes initiative to improve their life in every way? And if they do, do such spouses come with a good set of welcoming in-laws? Or is my head in the clouds and I'm giving up on a marriage that I should be fighting tooth and nail for? I don't think I have it in me to fight for this anymore. I'm tired of packing and unpacking his things. I'm also tired of not being able to rely on him. I'm tired of the scared, angry person who comes out when he does something that makes me feel unhappy or reminds me of the past.




They do exist. Usually with healthy enough individuals though, and even then, it requires relationship skills.

A couple of years ago, I broke up with a girl that is sexually dysfunctional. She has great qualities. She is smart, likes to smile, cute, driven, but her upbringing made her see sex as a bad thing and even to this day, her marriage is struggling because of her issues with sex. I have thos qualities in another partner who is not sexually dyssfunctional as my ex.

I learn to accept the situation as it is, and not hope things will turn out a certain way. Whether my ex change or not, it is up to her and her next partner. Either way, I moved on and won in life with my current partner.

Even if my ex changed and improved as a person sexually, I still won with my current partner because I am happy. If my ex turned out happy, I would be happy for her as well.

By choosing to move on and then letting him prove that he can make the changes, either you go forward single and perhaps find a healthier partner or if he changes in time to show you that he can be the person you can stay married to. Either way, in the end, you are better off.

He may find a female that does not mind living with his mother and not being a priority. That can happen, just like you may find someone who makes you a priority above his family.

The goal is to place yourself in a healthy environment as well as your daughter. In a more stable environment, your daughter will thrive.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

Pluto2 said:


> You did a very wise thing by just listening to your H, and how sad that he came with his conditions to R, rather than approach your relationship as a team. It is clear that he wants you to make the accommodations his family wants, and well you know in your heart that you cannot live that way.
> 
> Do not ever doubt that you are a good mother. You provide a home for her, you are removing the primary source of strain in her world, and you are not depriving her of her father. That is being a good mother. Children thrive in a loving, stress-free environment and you absolutely can make that happen. And the simple fact that dad does not live with you changes nothing. You are also demonstrating to your daughter that she, as a woman, has value that cannot be marginalized by anyone else. Stand tall, Orange.


Thank you for your kind words of support. When you put it that way, I suppose I'm not a failure as a mother after all.  It is very hard not to feel like a failure when divorce is looming, but breaking it down helps.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

survive_to_die said:


> I gave up religion and a close relationship with my family because of my wife... initially.
> 
> She realized she didn't believe the same anymore and that my family was controlling and judgmental based on the fact that my wife used to be a Christian and now is not one. Everything was based on "roles" and if the wife was being proper to the husband (their son). When my wife wasn't seen as being the "right kind of wife" she was judged extremely harshly and treated poorly.
> 
> As time went on I wanted peace with my wife so I distanced myself from the religion and family. After enough time had passed I came to realize that I actually felt more and more like my wife did on the issues and now we are on the same page. There were other problems I've mentioned that drove my wife to leave me, but I know the issue with in-laws is still a factor in her mind. Like, if her and I were ever together and had children, how would we handle my family and their desire to be around the children.
> 
> At this point I can say that my wife would always have priority and I would work around any problems with my family - maybe them seeing the children while only I was around? But even then, that's not an ideal situation for the children or my wife and I and would still be stressful. It all comes down to love and sacrifice.
> 
> The hope is that both spouses' love for each other is enough to overcome the sacrifices needed to make it through these situations we may not have created but would have to deal with. It seems like the fate of your future is in a similar balancing game.


It is a similar balancing game. I ask myself daily if maybe we should get back together, because ultimately we both love each other. And love is supposed to conquer all, isn't it? I listen that new song on the radio, "If I got locked away and we lost it all today, tell me honestly would you still love me the same?" And part of me feels so ashamed that I am not able to accept him as he is.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Mr.Fisty said:


> They do exist. Usually with healthy enough individuals though, and even then, it requires relationship skills.
> 
> A couple of years ago, I broke up with a girl that is sexually dysfunctional. She has great qualities. She is smart, likes to smile, cute, driven, but her upbringing made her see sex as a bad thing and even to this day, her marriage is struggling because of her issues with sex. I have thos qualities in another partner who is not sexually dyssfunctional as my ex.
> 
> I learn to accept the situation as it is, and not hope things will turn out a certain way. Whether my ex change or not, it is up to her and her next partner. Either way, I moved on and won in life with my current partner.
> 
> Even if my ex changed and improved as a person sexually, I still won with my current partner because I am happy. If my ex turned out happy, I would be happy for her as well.
> 
> By choosing to move on and then letting him prove that he can make the changes, either you go forward single and perhaps find a healthier partner or if he changes in time to show you that he can be the person you can stay married to. Either way, in the end, you are better off.
> 
> He may find a female that does not mind living with his mother and not being a priority. That can happen, just like you may find someone who makes you a priority above his family.
> 
> The goal is to place yourself in a healthy environment as well as your daughter. In a more stable environment, your daughter will thrive.


I wish I could do what you do - treat things the way they are, rather than the way I hope they will be "one day". I've grown up listening to my mom say, "Nothing stays the same forever" when she had problems with my dad. And now both of them, and my husband tell me, "give it time and it will get better". You know what I say to them? Imagine you're a computer programmer working on a piece of code, and your output is jibberish. If you keep entering the same code, won't you keep getting jibberish? Will giving it time help? Of course not, you need to change the inputs.

So what's making us "stuck"? The issues with his family. And our differing values. His family being the biggest issue...and very unlikely to change. My feelings toward them are also unlikely to change.

Am I a selfish person? To expect my spouse to put me first, above all others, and to complain and put the marriage on hold when he doesn't? I feel so so so selfish.


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## survive_to_die

I think a couple of others have mentioned that it is indeed possible for you two to reconcile and have your love form the basis of the resulting relationship. It's just a matter of what relationship you REALLY want, in your heart. Are you able to change yourself around the actuality of the situation to keep your husband if he isn't changing? You'd have to get your own personal therapy and restructure a lot of your thinking and behavior to keep the situation from being volatile. If you're doing it for anyone other than yourself, I don't think it will work and your husband would see the tension and stress in you through the years.

I wholeheartedly believe it's possible. I would have never imagined I'd ever be a man that could take a back seat and LEARN to let my wife go and date other men, possibly be physical/sexual with them all in the hopes that she'd see the value in me that I know is there and I'd win her back.

It's a constant daily struggle and fight in my mind to restructure my character and accept the situation. But it's working. And amazingly I am actually become more confident, more sure of myself and the future. I've realized that she's still dating me, and other guys have fallen out of the race. It's a constant motivation to be my best self.

Maybe you will find the same for yourself. That this seemingly HUGE, potentially marriage-breaking problem is a catalyst for your journey to your best self while still being married and having your daughter. Not to mention the possibilities of your husband exhibiting change in reaction to your changes.

I believe it's inevitable that if you are very close with someone, they are constantly evaluating and adjusting their emotions and actions based on how they perceive your actions and emotions. So be the change you want to see. Be the independence and strength you want your husband to have. But do it for yourself and perhaps he'll get curious and find a new attraction for this woman he married and follow suit. The end result is you are in the best position for you.

It's not hopeless. It's just really, really hard.



Orange_Pekoe said:


> It is a similar balancing game. I ask myself daily if maybe we should get back together, because ultimately we both love each other. And love is supposed to conquer all, isn't it? I listen that new song on the radio, "If I got locked away and we lost it all today, tell me honestly would you still love me the same?" And part of me feels so ashamed that I am not able to accept him as he is.


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## sapientia

IMO, when kids are involved you either divorce when they are young, before they are school-age, or stick it out until they are much older.

Can you tolerate another 10-15 years of this? That is the question you must answer. Unhappy parents that stay married for their sake don't make for happy, well-adjusted children either.



survive_to_die said:


> It's not hopeless. It's just really, really hard.


I completely agree^. Staying or leaving will both be hard, just different.


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## survive_to_die

My point was that is doesn't necessarily have to be unhappy. You know? If you love your husband and can honestly see yourself with him into old age, then if he's going to be clingy to his family, leave early in the morning and go to his parents house for breakfast, spend an possibly unhealthy amount of time at their house, then Orange can essentially use that time to pursue her own interests. 

Maybe that's finding someone to sit the baby while she goes to the gym in the morning, finds a group of women via Meetup.com to pursue hobbies with. She could even take her daughter to parks, hiking... whatever. Really, the choices are almost endless.

But what it doesn't involve is Orange feeling powerless, alone and neglected. The best gift she can give herself right now is independence to be her own woman and get help with not needing another human beings actions/words to make her happy.

This is necessary for all relationships, whether they be on the rocks or healthy. 

_"When we want or feel like we need someone or something really bad, we often tend to get caught up in our fantasy of what we want and ignore the reality that what we want does not seem to want us back. This is where focusing on our outcomes above all else, instead of individual people or things we want, prevents us from developing unhealthy attachments. When we become attached to someone or something, we set ourselves up to suffer unnecessarily when we want reality to be other than it is."_



sapientia said:


> IMO, when kids are involved you either divorce when they are young, before they are school-age, or stick it out until they are much older.
> 
> Can you tolerate another 10-15 years of this? That is the question you must answer. Unhappy parents that stay married for their sake don't make for happy, well-adjusted children either.
> 
> 
> 
> I completely agree^. Staying or leaving will both be hard, just different.


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I wish I could do what you do - treat things the way they are, rather than the way I hope they will be "one day". I've grown up listening to my mom say, "Nothing stays the same forever" when she had problems with my dad. And now both of them, and my husband tell me, "give it time and it will get better". You know what I say to them? Imagine you're a computer programmer working on a piece of code, and your output is jibberish. If you keep entering the same code, won't you keep getting jibberish? Will giving it time help? Of course not, you need to change the inputs.
> 
> So what's making us "stuck"? The issues with his family. And our differing values. His family being the biggest issue...and very unlikely to change. My feelings toward them are also unlikely to change.
> 
> Am I a selfish person? To expect my spouse to put me first, above all others, and to complain and put the marriage on hold when he doesn't? I feel so so so selfish.


 Aren't we all selfish to some extent. For example with my ex, I wanted a great sex life and left her for it. In the end, it was beneficial to my own well-being.

As for the programming, in order for him to change, his behavior and beliefs need to change. You see, to him, there is nothing wrong with his behavior and you are the one irrational. Your norm is not nearly compatible with his own.

I guess human's are like computers in which we are programmed by genetics and our environment. At this point, there is so much he can only change. And, it is a slow process in which he has to override a lot of previous coding and be more aware of himself.

There is too much of a negative view on selfishness. It can be healthy. When you were living with his family, and placing all of his family before your own well-being, what did that achieve besides an unhealthy individual.

I am more realistic than a hopeful person. Even with your parents, it does not sound like you had a healthy environment growing up. In turn, it has affected how you came out as well. So, eventually, they have a healthier marriage, but there is a lot of collateral damage along the way. Even then, there is no definite predictor that it could have gone much worse. If they chose to resolve their issues much earlier than waiting it out, they could have given you a better, nourishing environment to thrive. Not to mention the stress also affected their over all health, and loss potential of a better life in the end.

By having an unstable relationship, it affects your daughter as she imprints more and more of the both of you as role models. You and your husband are affecting her programming as of now , in the past, and will continue into the future.


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## cdbaker

At this point, I'd say file for divorce. He's living in the bubble that is his family, where they are going to say and do everything they can to convince him that they are right and you are wrong, and that you are the one who should be brought to terms for their sake.

Honestly, if there is one good thing I could say about this, it's that I find it interesting that he resists them enough to still want to work it out with you. If nothing else, that almost makes this more unfortunate because it means he probably really does love/care about you, but just can't bring himself to open his mind and realize how addicted he is to them.

So the way I see it, you can file for divorce and deliver him a final "wake up call" that says you really are ready to walk away from him for good, that you aren't going to agree to his terms, and if he really does want to save the marriage, he'll have to open up and realize that some of his views are wrong, and prove it to you.


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## Openminded

I once was a believer in "waiting to see if things get better". But you can waste a big portion of your life doing that. Plus, things very often get worse, and not better, over time. 

Had I gotten out 30 years ago when the first round of cheating occurred (the first that I was aware of anyway), instead of finally getting out two years ago, I would have had a much different life than the one I did have. Instead I wasted several decades of my life because I felt things would get better. That's the danger.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Openminded said:


> *Plus, things very often get worse, and not better, over time.
> *
> Had I gotten out 30 years ago when the first round of cheating occurred (the first that I was aware of anyway), instead of finally getting out two years ago, I would have had a much different life than the one I did have. Instead I wasted several decades of my life because I felt things would get better. That's the danger.


That's what I'm afraid of.
That over time, yes I would be able to adjust to living the way my husband wants to live (and vice versa) through a lot of compromise on both our parts. But the in-law/family issue would ALWAYS exist, and not get better...most likely worse, but not better.


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## Orange_Pekoe

cdbaker said:


> At this point, I'd say file for divorce. He's living in the bubble that is his family, where they are going to say and do everything they can to convince him that they are right and you are wrong, and that you are the one who should be brought to terms for their sake.
> 
> Honestly, if there is one good thing I could say about this, it's that I find it interesting that he resists them enough to still want to work it out with you. If nothing else, that almost makes this more unfortunate because it means he probably really does love/care about you, but just can't bring himself to open his mind and realize how addicted he is to them.
> 
> So the way I see it, you can file for divorce and deliver him a final "wake up call" that says you really are ready to walk away from him for good, that you aren't going to agree to his terms, and *if he really does want to save the marriage, he'll have to open up and realize that some of his views are wrong, and prove it to you.*


But you see, he believes it's my views that are wrong and I am the one who needs to change. He is becoming quite strong in his religious beliefs and sees that I'm not following suit.

I cannot say that his views are wrong. Only that we are different. Incompatible.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

Mr.Fisty said:


> Aren't we all selfish to some extent. For example with my ex, I wanted a great sex life and left her for it. In the end, it was beneficial to my own well-being.
> 
> As for the programming, in order for him to change, his behavior and beliefs need to change. You see, to him, there is nothing wrong with his behavior and you are the one irrational. Your norm is not nearly compatible with his own.
> 
> I guess human's are like computers in which we are programmed by genetics and our environment. At this point, there is so much he can only change. And, it is a slow process in which he has to override a lot of previous coding and be more aware of himself.
> 
> *There is too much of a negative view on selfishness. It can be healthy. When you were living with his family, and placing all of his family before your own well-being, what did that achieve besides an unhealthy individual.*
> 
> I am more realistic than a hopeful person. Even with your parents, it does not sound like you had a healthy environment growing up. In turn, it has affected how you came out as well. So, eventually, they have a healthier marriage, *but there is a lot of collateral damage along the way.* Even then, there is no definite predictor that it could have gone much worse. If they chose to resolve their issues much earlier than waiting it out, they could have given you a better, nourishing environment to thrive. Not to mention the stress also affected their over all health, and loss potential of a better life in the end.
> 
> By having an unstable relationship, it affects your daughter as she imprints more and more of the both of you as role models. You and your husband are affecting her programming as of now , in the past, and will continue into the future.


That's a really good point. I was NOT selfish when I lived with my in laws, I squashed my own emotional/physical well-being to adjust to them. To make them happy, to make my husband happy. And look what that did to me!

Last night we had a conversation and, long story short, he asked me if this is what I really wanted (a divorce). He needs to know because he's tired of living out of his car and has to look for a new place. I find this surprising because he spends such a large amount of time at his mom's house, why doesn't he just move in with them? No doubt, it's because his brother's wife has made it clear she will not live with him. Anyway - I told him that if he compromises his values, he will eventually resent me a lot for it. And if I compromise to match the lifestyle he wants to lead, I will be unhappy. I don't see us living together this way with unhappiness on both sides, both of us unwilling to adjust for the other. So what alternative is left?


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

survive_to_die said:


> My point was that is doesn't necessarily have to be unhappy. You know? If you love your husband and can honestly see yourself with him into old age, then if he's going to be clingy to his family, leave early in the morning and go to his parents house for breakfast, spend an possibly unhealthy amount of time at their house, then Orange can essentially use that time to pursue her own interests.
> 
> *Maybe that's finding someone to sit the baby while she goes to the gym in the morning, finds a group of women via Meetup.com to pursue hobbies with. She could even take her daughter to parks, hiking... whatever. Really, the choices are almost endless.
> 
> But what it doesn't involve is Orange feeling powerless, alone and neglected. The best gift she can give herself right now is independence to be her own woman and get help with not needing another human beings actions/words to make her happy.*
> 
> This is necessary for all relationships, whether they be on the rocks or healthy.
> 
> _"When we want or feel like we need someone or something really bad, we often tend to get caught up in our fantasy of what we want and ignore the reality that what we want does not seem to want us back. This is where focusing on our outcomes above all else, instead of individual people or things we want, prevents us from developing unhealthy attachments. When we become attached to someone or something, we set ourselves up to suffer unnecessarily when we want reality to be other than it is."_


I was trying really hard to do this (occupy myself with hobbies and activities that did not involve my husband, so I wouldn't feel abandoned when he wasn't with me). It was starting to work. Ultimately, I don't need to be with him all the time to have a fulfilling life, two people in a relationship can AND SHOULD have their own separate hobbies and sense of independance.

But what that won't fix, is:
1. My relationship with his family. Knowing my husband doesn't have my back.
2. The increasing gap between his views and mine.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

sapientia said:


> *Can you tolerate another 10-15 years of this? That is the question you must answer.* Unhappy parents that stay married for their sake don't make for happy, well-adjusted children either.


Yes I could tolerate it.
But I believe life is not about tolerating your circumstances. It's about trying to live your best life and enjoying your existence...not merely tolerating it.

Like Justin Trudeau says - "Better is always possible." Isn't it?


----------



## sapientia

What you believe must reconcile with the reality of your situation and how you want to raise your children.

fwiw, I stuck it out until our son was a teenager and was mature enough to see for himself the state of his parent's marriage. I'm glad I did, it was the right decision for our family. I matured and grew very strong from the experience. I'm now happily remarried, my ex is in a good place with his GF and new family, and our son is doing very well in both homes. The power of a happy home should not be discounted in your decision.

But sticking it out isn't for everyone. To your point, its more than just "tolerating" your situation. One needs to be able to find inner happiness and be very careful there is no lurking resentment communicated to the children. Very few people can do this in a good marriage; it is very difficult to maintain that kind of self-control in a strained one.

Good luck.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

sapientia said:


> What you believe must reconcile with the reality of your situation and how you want to raise your children.
> 
> fwiw, I stuck it out until our son was a teenager and was mature enough to see for himself the state of his parent's marriage. I'm glad I did, it was the right decision for our family. I matured and grew very strong from the experience. I'm now happily remarried, my ex is in a good place with his GF and new family, and our son is doing very well in both homes. The power of a happy home should not be discounted in your decision.
> 
> But sticking it out isn't for everyone. To your point, its more than just "tolerating" your situation. One needs to be able to find inner happiness and be very careful there is no lurking resentment communicated to the children. Very few people can do this in a good marriage; it is very difficult to maintain that kind of self-control in a strained one.
> 
> Good luck.


I'm very certain we would not be able to stay married without "collateral damage" as Mr. Fisty said. If I wait until my daughter is 18, that's 16 years of watching her parents argue. 16 years of me resenting my husband's family. 16 years of clashing views on how to raise her. Not to mention, who can guarantee that at an older age, she will not be devastated by our divorce? My parents had a rocky relationship, I knew they should have gotten a divorce, but every time either of them said the word it was as if my entire world was ending. I was very saddened and scared of the idea. I'd rather get through it when she's young and won't remember the arguments, rather than when she's older and it leaves scars.

I'm really happy, though, that it worked out for your family and you are all well-adjusted. Especially your son. 

My counsellor is really helping me through this journey. She said the better we get along and show it to our daughter, the healthier it is for her. I think we can do that. She also said that we don't have to decide on a divorce right now, because people's experiences change and so their views change over time...and maybe he will end up realizing that what seems like a non-negotiable to him right now, is really not a big deal in a year. If it is, then a year is separation enough and we can both move forward with our lives. While maintaining friendship for our daughter's sake.


----------



## sapientia

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I'm very certain we would not be able to stay married without "collateral damage" as Mr. Fisty said. If I wait until my daughter is 18, that's 16 years of watching her parents argue. 16 years of me resenting my husband's family. 16 years of clashing views on how to raise her. Not to mention, who can guarantee that at an older age, she will not be devastated by our divorce? My parents had a rocky relationship, I knew they should have gotten a divorce, but every time either of them said the word it was as if my entire world was ending. I was very saddened and scared of the idea. I'd rather get through it when she's young and won't remember the arguments, rather than when she's older and it leaves scars.
> 
> I'm really happy, though, that it worked out for your family and you are all well-adjusted. Especially your son.
> 
> My counsellor is really helping me through this journey. She said the better we get along and show it to our daughter, the healthier it is for her. I think we can do that. She also said that we don't have to decide on a divorce right now, because people's experiences change and so their views change over time...and maybe he will end up realizing that what seems like a non-negotiable to him right now, is really not a big deal in a year. If it is, then a year is separation enough and we can both move forward with our lives. While maintaining friendship for our daughter's sake.


Yep, if you can't stay and be happy or at least civil, then you will only end up damaging your kids.

If you can divorce civilly and maintain a friendship, or at least a respectful co-parenting relationship, then it can work out for the best for everyone.

I wish you luck. Neither path is easy but you seem to have the longterm in mind.


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## Orange_Pekoe

sapientia said:


> Yep, if you can't stay and be happy or at least civil, then you will only end up damaging your kids.
> 
> If you can divorce civilly and maintain a friendship, or at least a respectful co-parenting relationship, then it can work out for the best for everyone.
> 
> I wish you luck. Neither path is easy but you seem to have the longterm in mind.


Thank you. It's difficult...when I see him I can see how hurt he is but he's trying to hide it. I think I'm better at hiding my emotions because my face is blank. I feel blank sometimes when I'm around him, if that makes sense? 

He is waiting for me to tell him that I don't want us to divorce and that we should try again. But for me to do that without change, ie. counselling, is not going to happen. It's asking for the vicious unhappy cycle of move in/move out to continue.

I feel like a piece of sh!t.  I let him move in and instead of it working out, we just let ourselves get hurt again. I feel like a bad wife, a bad mother, a selfish person, guilt eats at me, but I consciously fight these negative thoughts away and tell myself I won't let it drag me down. I have become a stronger person, I can say that with confidence now.


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## aine

OP, why is counselling not possible? I would suggest you get IC to sort through the issues with a third party, then when you are clearer ask him to do so then have some sort of joint counselling instead of going around in circles, it might help.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Aine, I am in IC but he doesn't want to go with me.


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## yellerstang03

Orange,

I may have missed it, but how have your religious views diverged? Are you two different religions (inter-faith) or the same religion but now opposite spectrums (intra-faith). A spouse's changing religious views can be a challenge to accept, but doesn't have to mean the end of a marriage.


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## Orange_Pekoe

yellerstang03 said:


> Orange,
> 
> I may have missed it, but how have your religious views diverged? Are you two different religions (inter-faith) or the same religion but now opposite spectrums (intra-faith). A spouse's changing religious views can be a challenge to accept, but doesn't have to mean the end of a marriage.


We're of the same faith. He's becoming much more observant than I am and wants me to follow suit. I am religious as well but I constantly feel like he's imposing things on me and our daughter and that it will get more intense with time.

He told me that if we disagree on a certain point, I'm obligated to take the religious stance on it and not "rebel".


----------



## Tron

Orange_Pekoe said:


> We're of the same faith. He's becoming much more observant than I am and wants me to follow suit. I am religious as well but I constantly feel like he's imposing things on me and our daughter and that it will get more intense with time.
> 
> He told me that if we disagree on a certain point, I'm obligated to take the religious stance on it and not "rebel".


Shut up and do what you are told, huh? Because that's what God wants.

Your H is a real peach.


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## yellerstang03

Orange_Pekoe said:


> We're of the same faith. He's becoming much more observant than I am and wants me to follow suit. I am religious as well but I constantly feel like he's imposing things on me and our daughter and that it will get more intense with time.
> 
> He told me that if we disagree on a certain point, I'm obligated to take the religious stance on it and not "rebel".


Well, no wonder there is a problem. Both of you need to find a way to live your faith but still take each other's feelings into account. One's faith is not supposed to dominate their spouse.

Have you ever read/seen this?
Conflicts of Faith (Part 2)


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## survive_to_die

I usually try to stay positive, but a husband that becomes stricter to a religion and is supported/reinforced by his family is going to make it next to impossible for the wife to not become the object of blame and disdain. I've seen it in Christianity all my life. It's the ugly truth about how controlling religion is and how it's very structure creates division between "believers" and "non-believers". 

Depending on the specifics, even believing in God and his creation isn't enough if you're not following their "brand" of belief. I've rarely if ever seen a marriage work when both spouses don't buy conpletely into a churches forced belief system.

Orange sounds like she is finding a healthy balance and she's up against a spouse and his family that require strict obedience and a submissive wife.

Sorry Orange, but you gotta run from this situation. A religion that exhibits these qualities will be a plague on your heart and soul.


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## happy as a clam

survive_to_die said:


> Sorry Orange, but you gotta run from this situation. A religion that exhibits these qualities will be a plague on your heart and soul.


:iagree:

Many of us have been saying this for several threads now. Orange, I just don't see this getting any better. I wish things were different, but they're not. . How much longer will you drag this out? Please think of your daughter.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Blaine

Dear Orange I'm sorry that you are going through all of this. Please forgive me, I was only able to skim the post and i surely have never walked in your shoes so take this for what its worth. It seems like to me that if you boil this down both of you have a lot of growing up to do. First even the Bible says once u get married that is where u belong, not with ur mother and father. Second ultimately we are all selfish but when there is a child, the child should come first. And last if someone isnt living with you or actively undermining you (which i didnt see any mention of) who cares what they say or do? You should not be having anxiety about your husband spending time with his family and he should be taking care of you and ur daughter above everyone else. PS He says he wont go to counseling unless it's religious? Then find a priest or minister that has a degree in counseling. Then when he tries to weasel his way out remind him of what he has said. Good Luck
Blaine


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## Orange_Pekoe

survive_to_die said:


> I usually try to stay positive, but a husband that becomes stricter to a religion and is supported/reinforced by his family is going to make it next to impossible for the wife to not become the object of blame and disdain. I've seen it in Christianity all my life. It's the ugly truth about how controlling religion is and how it's very structure creates division between "believers" and "non-believers".
> 
> Depending on the specifics, even believing in God and his creation isn't enough if you're not following their "brand" of belief. I've rarely if ever seen a marriage work when both spouses don't buy conpletely into a churches forced belief system.
> 
> Orange sounds like she is finding a healthy balance and she's up against a spouse and his family that require strict obedience and a submissive wife.
> 
> Sorry Orange, but you gotta run from this situation. A religion that exhibits these qualities will be a plague on your heart and soul.


Hi survive,

It's funny because his family, although religious, are not any more religious than I am. We are very similar. His brother, however, is like my husband and my husband gets most of his advice from his brother. So I would not be surprised if he's hearing things like, "She's not good for you because she won't obey you. A wife should obey her husband in everything and if she doesn't, she's trouble."

I keep thinking to myself, that I know couples who are from different religions yet they have gotten married, respect each other's beliefs and create successful families. We are the SAME religion and we can't agree! I keep wanting to sit him down and at the very least, ask him if he knows what he's doing by giving up our family for the sake of his "righteous" path. The last I checked, maintaining your family was pretty high up on the list of religious obligations. If we can agree on this, then we can get into marital counselling and maybe even save our marriage...


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

yellerstang03 said:


> Well, no wonder there is a problem. Both of you need to find a way to live your faith but still take each other's feelings into account. One's faith is not supposed to dominate their spouse.
> 
> Have you ever read/seen this?
> Conflicts of Faith (Part 2)


I have been telling him the last few months that he needs to be more open-minded. My telling him has little benefit.

Religion is one of those things I firmly believe is between a person and God. We don't need people policing our faith. I'd understand the situation if I was really far-out there, for example drinking, gambling, partying, etc. but I'm as much of a home-girl as can get. I really don't know why he's holding on to this issue so much? It's not something we can't get past...

But when I think about his family, then I realize I might not be able to get past them and all the negative feelings I have about them. Well, not without continued counselling and learning techniques that will help me "ignore" the bad stuff...

Divorce is never because of one issue. It's a myriad of issues that build up and up until the mountain becomes too high to climb.


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## Orange_Pekoe

happy as a clam said:


> :iagree:
> 
> Many of us have been saying this for several threads now. Orange, I just don't see this getting any better. I wish things were different, but they're not. . How much longer will you drag this out? Please think of your daughter.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


happy, We aren't together right now. He moved out and I haven't let him move back in.

He wanted to move back in but it's obviously not a good idea at this point. At the very least, we need marital counselling and more change from both of us. I'm not going to continue confusing our daughter by letting her watch him move in/out every week.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Blaine said:


> Dear Orange I'm sorry that you are going through all of this. Please forgive me, I was only able to skim the post and i surely have never walked in your shoes so take this for what its worth. It seems like to me that if you boil this down both of you have a lot of growing up to do. First even the Bible says once u get married that is where u belong, not with ur mother and father. Second ultimately we are all selfish but when there is a child, the child should come first. And last if someone isnt living with you or actively undermining you (which i didnt see any mention of) who cares what they say or do? You should not be having anxiety about your husband spending time with his family and he should be taking care of you and ur daughter above everyone else. PS He says he wont go to counseling unless it's religious? Then find a priest or minister that has a degree in counseling. Then when he tries to weasel his way out remind him of what he has said. Good Luck
> Blaine


Hi Blaine,

Don't apologize, I appreciate your feedback. I completely agree with you that we both have a lot of growing up to do.

1. He needs to put his wife and child as his priority and take ownership of his life, and our life together. 

2. I should find a way to "zone out" when his family calls him, and learn to enjoy my time when he's not with us, rather than expecting him to be with us most of the time. Basically, get past my hurt, anger and frustration at his family. But I can't do that without him doing point 1 above.

3. We have to think of our daughter and what is best for her. Right now, I truly don't know if it's best for her that we stay together. Staying together and being able to work through and get past our problems would be ideal...but staying together if we can't do 1 and 2 above, is really bad for her.

His family doesn't like me and I am certain they are telling him to move on and forget about me. On top of the problems we already have, I'm also upset at him for packing up all his stuff and leaving during our last argument. Over the last 4 months he's done that several times and I'm tired of the cycle...so I have not allowed him to move back in and he's stopped asking.

I do think we need to sit down and have a very mature, thoughtful conversation about what he "needs" and what I "need" and whether we can come to terms for our family's sake, and because we still love each other. And if we can't then this time, I truly am ready to move on and have a great life, and maybe even (with time) meet someone new.

I really like your idea of finding a priest/minister with a degree in counselling, I'd be open to that. But I am worried that the priest will agree with my husband that I'm not religious enough or that it's OK for my husband to expect me to be "obedient" no matter what.


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## Blaine

Hi Orange
At least you are willing to think you "may" be wrong about things. I dont know that your husband is that grown up. As for the priest if he has a degree in counseling then he shouldnt be judging you and want whats best for all of you but if you can find one, interview him first.
Blaine


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## Orange_Pekoe

Update: We are over the "reconciliation" phase and splitting up. I had a conversation with him and realized he is becoming super close-minded and I cannot deal with it. 

This time, I won't take him back.

I will have weak moments and lots of second-guessing myself so bear with me if I create threads asking about whether I'm doing the right thing or not...


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## Mr.Fisty

Sorry, but you have to do what is right for you. What will determine your mental and emotional health.

Don't worry, will be reminding you as much as you need. The outcome is what in the end is healthiest for you.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Mr.Fisty said:


> Sorry, but you have to do what is right for you. What will determine your mental and emotional health.
> 
> Don't worry, will be reminding you as much as you need. The outcome is what in the end is healthiest for you.


I am tired of the drama.
I am tired of having a part-time husband.
I am tired of being made to feel like I'm not religious enough, or a bad person, or a "rebel". I'm far from that!
I am tired of trying to change a person who does not want to be changed...or trying to force myself to accept circumstances that make me very unhappy.
I am so very tired of watching him pack and unpack.
I am sad to put my daughter through the trauma of watching her dad pack and unpack.

The fear of the unknown (future) is not going to keep me in such an unhappy relationship. Yes we had good times, but when they were bad, they were really bad.


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## happy as a clam

Glad you've reached a decision Orange. That in and of itself has to be a relief. Now find your resolve, stick to your decision, and move forward. We'll all be here and we're all rooting for you.


_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Mr.Fisty

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I am tired of the drama.
> I am tired of having a part-time husband.
> I am tired of being made to feel like I'm not religious enough, or a bad person, or a "rebel". I'm far from that!
> I am tired of trying to change a person who does not want to be changed...or trying to force myself to accept circumstances that make me very unhappy.
> I am so very tired of watching him pack and unpack.
> I am sad to put my daughter through the trauma of watching her dad pack and unpack.
> 
> The fear of the unknown (future) is not going to keep me in such an unhappy relationship. Yes we had good times, but when they were bad, they were really bad.



My teacher and other research shows that it should be about a 5 to 1 ratio when it comes to positive to negative circumstances. Even so, that ratio goes only so far. For instance, getting punched for every five gifts is still an unhealthy ratio when it comes to well-being.

The more we place ourselves in a negative environment, the more it changes us in the negative. I am sure you have notice that you may have a shorter fuse, less able to handle stress, etc.

You tried again, even though it was a long shot.

Don't let others guilt you for knowing what you need that makes you fulfilled. It may have been there choice to put up with their circumstances, but you are your own individual. You do not have to martyr yourself, thus making yourself into a victim. You have the right to choose yourself.


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## survive_to_die

> The fear of the unknown (future) is not going to keep me in such an unhappy relationship. Yes we had good times, but when they were bad, they were really bad.


I think I'm reaching a similar turning point. It's a scary place to be.


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## Openminded

Did you let him move back in this time or did you do this final breakup from a distance? The constant moving in/moving out obviously isn't good for your daughter -- or for you. 

Sometimes people change in ways that make their marriage unworkable. The temptation is to hold on and hope they will change back. But they almost never do. He has shown you who he is now and that's not the man you married. Believe him. For your daughter's sake and for yours.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

happy as a clam said:


> Glad you've reached a decision Orange. That in and of itself has to be a relief. Now find your resolve, stick to your decision, and move forward. We'll all be here and we're all rooting for you.
> 
> 
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Thank you clam. It's not easy. I have been having dreams involving my husband, they're not nightmares, rather dreams of having another child in our lives. I feel like it's my subconscious telling me what I'm losing out on. It hurts.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Mr.Fisty said:


> My teacher and other research shows that it should be about a 5 to 1 ratio when it comes to positive to negative circumstances. Even so, that ratio goes only so far. For instance, getting punched for every five gifts is still an unhealthy ratio when it comes to well-being.
> 
> The more we place ourselves in a negative environment, the more it changes us in the negative. I am sure you have notice that you may have a shorter fuse, less able to handle stress, etc.
> 
> You tried again, even though it was a long shot.
> 
> Don't let others guilt you for knowing what you need that makes you fulfilled. It may have been there choice to put up with their circumstances, but you are your own individual. You do not have to martyr yourself, thus making yourself into a victim. You have the right to choose yourself.


I agree with you Mr. Fisty, but I still feel as though I am in a negative environment in some respects, because taking care of my daughter on my own is very hard. After work in the evenings, I'm tired and she's very active and basically turns the place upside-down. Sometimes I have a short fuse. I'm sad about the end of my marriage and I guess that doesn't make me the best mom right now.


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## Orange_Pekoe

survive_to_die said:


> I think I'm reaching a similar turning point. It's a scary place to be.


It sure is. 
Be strong.


----------



## Orange_Pekoe

Openminded said:


> Did you let him move back in this time or did you do this final breakup from a distance? The constant moving in/moving out obviously isn't good for your daughter -- or for you.
> 
> Sometimes people change in ways that make their marriage unworkable. The temptation is to hold on and hope they will change back. But they almost never do. He has shown you who he is now and that's not the man you married. Believe him. For your daughter's sake and for yours.


From a distance. The last time he moved out, I didn't agree to him moving back in.


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## lifeistooshort

I know it's scary, I divorced my ex when my boys were 2:and 5 and took care of them myself. 

You can do it, you just have to be very organized.

The real loser here is your hb..... eventually his mother will pass on and he'll get old alone. Nobody will put up with this.

You'll meet someone else and move on.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Mr.Fisty

Orange_Pekoe said:


> I agree with you Mr. Fisty, but I still feel as though I am in a negative environment in some respects, because taking care of my daughter on my own is very hard. After work in the evenings, I'm tired and she's very active and basically turns the place upside-down. Sometimes I have a short fuse. I'm sad about the end of my marriage and I guess that doesn't make me the best mom right now.



Yes, that part will be tough for a while. But there is some emotional stability without him. It takes time to readjust and change routine. Asking for help is okay when raising children.

Plus, the earlier she is placed in her new environment, the better she will adjust. Him leaving and going will only cause separation anxiety. It is better off in the long run to have some structure.

In my own family, my older cousins use their parents, friends, siblings and on occasions myself. Parents need their own break and that does not mean that they are a bad parent, it is just that if they take care of their own well-being, they are more capable parents.

Surround your child with other positive role models and she will thrive.


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## Orange_Pekoe

lifeistooshort said:


> I know it's scary, I divorced my ex when my boys were 2:and 5 and took care of them myself.
> 
> You can do it, you just have to be very organized.
> 
> The real loser here is your hb..... eventually his mother will pass on and he'll get old alone. Nobody will put up with this.
> 
> You'll meet someone else and move on.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


You're right, I have to be very organized.
There are things I can do to make life easier for myself.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Mr.Fisty said:


> Yes, that part will be tough for a while. But there is some emotional stability without him. It takes time to readjust and change routine. Asking for help is okay when raising children.
> 
> Plus, the earlier she is placed in her new environment, the better she will adjust. Him leaving and going will only cause separation anxiety. It is better off in the long run to have some structure.
> 
> In my own family, my older cousins use their parents, friends, siblings and on occasions myself. Parents need their own break and that does not mean that they are a bad parent, it is just that if they take care of their own well-being, they are more capable parents.
> 
> Surround your child with other positive role models and she will thrive.


It's a difficult enough transition as it is, there are things I can do to make life easier for myself right now.
For example, I work until late and don't have a lot of time to cook in the evenings. So I either cook on Sunday so it lasts some weekdays, or I make something very easy in the evening, or I take my daughter out.

And I should lean more on my parents/siblings for help taking care of my daughter. They're already very helpful but maybe I need to ask for more.


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## Mr.Fisty

a big mistake that most make is not using the resources that they have at their disposal. We all need a crutch sometimes and it is our responsibility to do so.

Just do not worry too much about the future. Just work on what will help you succeed. The aim should be your overall well-being. As circumstances change, then readjust as necessary. But make plans as things stand, not what you want to happen, like him getting help. That is not your's to control.


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## Orange_Pekoe

At least this time, I don't resent him like I did the first round of separation. Since I am the one who asked him to leave and didn't take him back.

Every day that goes by, I realize that he never really changed at all...
It is ingrained in him to serve his family no matter what. Any wife/children will be second in line, first is his duty towards his mother and siblings. 

I really hope that after a period of mourning, I get myself out of this emotional block and move on. Truly move on, find happiness again, find inspiration and motivation and light-heartedness in my life again.


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## Mr.Fisty

Orange_Pekoe said:


> At least this time, I don't resent him like I did the first round of separation. Since I am the one who asked him to leave and didn't take him back.
> 
> Every day that goes by, I realize that he never really changed at all...
> It is ingrained in him to serve his family no matter what. Any wife/children will be second in line, first is his duty towards his mother and siblings.
> 
> I really hope that after a period of mourning, I get myself out of this emotional block and move on. Truly move on, find happiness again, find inspiration and motivation and light-heartedness in my life again.



I know you had to try, and I commend you for it. Just from an outsider's perspective, what you wanted to change about him made up a majority of who he is. He has been heavily wired to be who he is.

Good luck on your journey and remember not to neglect yourself. What you improve about yourself will increase the possibility of a better life.

Next time, check out the family dynamic before committing. Learn to detach and observe, it is a helpful skill.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Mr.Fisty said:


> I know you had to try, and I commend you for it. Just from an outsider's perspective, what you wanted to change about him made up a majority of who he is. He has been heavily wired to be who he is.
> 
> Good luck on your journey and remember not to neglect yourself. What you improve about yourself will increase the possibility of a better life.
> 
> Next time, check out the family dynamic before committing. Learn to detach and observe, it is a helpful skill.


Good advice...although at this point it is super difficult to imagine myself ever getting married again. But I won't try to predict the future.

I'm trying not to beat myself up over not being able to change myself enough to accommodate our marriage.


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## Mr.Fisty

Orange_Pekoe said:


> Good advice...although at this point it is super difficult to imagine myself ever getting married again. But I won't try to predict the future.
> 
> I'm trying not to beat myself up over not being able to change myself enough to accommodate our marriage.




I know it is hard since marriage has a deeper meaning for you, thus it affects you more deeply.

Hopefully, someday, you will not feel that regret and accept the facts that your own well-being matters as well and that of you daughter and with that instill belief, she will have proper boundaries so no one can minimize her self worth.

Of course a lot of your energy will be focus on healing and grieving the loss of a partner, the potential future, and now facing an unknown future that you have never planned for.

Just take one step at a time and eventually you will reach your goals.


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## Orange_Pekoe

Mr.Fisty said:


> I know it is hard since marriage has a deeper meaning for you, thus it affects you more deeply.
> 
> Hopefully, someday, you will not feel that regret and accept the facts that your own well-being matters as well and that of you daughter and with that instill belief, she will have proper boundaries so no one can minimize her self worth.
> 
> Of course a lot of your energy will be focus on healing and grieving the loss of a partner, the potential future, and now facing an unknown future that you have never planned for.
> 
> Just take one step at a time and eventually you will reach your goals.


I think you hit a strong point, if I take it one step at a time then I will reach my goals - but what are my goals? I have to re-set them now. And I will.

This morning I logged in to Facebook and I read a couple messages he had written. We aren't Facebook friends now but his profile is public. He wrote a couple posts that made me shake my head and re-affirm my belief that he's on a very religious path that I cannot follow. It's not that he's wrong, but he's definitely wrong for me. DEFINITELY wrong for me and staying married would have just continued to make me miserable as well as my daughter.

Yes, the future is scary. But I'm up for the challenge.


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## Lilac23

Out of curiosity, what religion are you?


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