# Kicked Out



## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

Our lease is up. He won't sign a new lease with me. I have no job and I'm trying to get housing at my university, but my kids can't live there. I'm afraid of missing out on their daily lives. I feel rejected and cast out. I finally got myself to a good place, but its hard not to let this crush my spirit.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

*Affection gone, no hope?*

Just a few months ago he was still so affectionate. I got busy with school and didn't notice the affections disappearing. He says he feels like we are friends, roommates. We still have sex though. If the affectionate man I knew isn't there, is there no hope of reconciling?? :crying:


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> Our lease is up. He won't sign a new lease with me. I have no job and I'm trying to get housing at my university, but my kids can't live there. I'm afraid of missing out on their daily lives. I feel rejected and cast out. I finally got myself to a good place, but its hard not to let this crush my spirit.


Where is he living? 

Are you married to him?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I moved the post from your other thread here. This is basically one topic. Rules are that there is only one thread per topic.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

*Re: Affection gone, no hope?*



luxnoctis said:


> Just a few months ago he was still so affectionate. I got busy with school and didn't notice the affections disappearing. He says he feels like we are friends, roommates. We still have sex though. If the affectionate man I knew isn't there, is there no hope of reconciling?? :crying:


Sure. Start making him a priority. But school is important and he should understand and encourage you


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Yes, this can be fixed. The best way to do it is to use these two books: "Love Busters" and "His Needs, Her Needs". Read the books first yourself. Then tell him that you really want to fix the marriage. Ask him to read the books with you and do the work with you that the books say to do. 


About him kicking you out of the place where you live. He cannot legally kick you out. He cannot take the children anywhere without your consent. 

WE need more info so we can help you. If you could answer the questions above. And I have some more questions......

How old are the two of you? How hold are your children?

If he's not going to get a lease with you, where is he going to be living? Where are your children going to be living?

Do you have family who you can move in with?


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

We are married, for 5 years. Our lease is up this month, so I mean he is kicking me out because he won't get an apartment with me and we moved away from my family. I have to get housing at the university so I can pay for it with student loans while I get a stable job to apply for my own apartment. My kids are 4 and 1. they can't live with me on campus. I've talked to him about everything. He refuses to work on things but he confuses me about his feelings towards me and if he is planning on reconciling after a year. 

I just talked to him today about everything. He said his family told him he will be unhappy if he divorces and his life will be ruined. He wants to separate and prove to himself that he will be fine unmarried. He is not separating to take time apart or see how he still feels about me. He was confusing my feelings about that because I am still in love with him and hope to get back together. He is sure he is not in love with me. He only loves me as a friend. I feel depressed but I guess thats the end of the grief process. 

Did anyone ever have a partner do this and then come back ? I don't think its possible to say all these things and change your mind after living apart. He still chats with me like friends and makes jokes. Its hard for me to separate that from him not being in love with me.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> How old are the two of you?


We are 27 and 28 years old.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

What state do you live in?

You clearly do not understand your rights. He cannot do this to you. He cannot throw you out on the street and keep your children.

By law, he was to support you. Here is what you need to do.

Find an organization for victims of abuse. What he has done is abuse.

They will help you find a lawyer. The lawyer needs to get an emergency court hearing to get you money. You will get about 40% of HIS income and child support for your two children. You can also ask for some extra money to help you get a place to life with your children. 

But you have to act fast so that he cannot say that you abandoned your children.

If you will tell me your state, I can help you get the resources you need.

You are married. You are entitled to 50% of everything he earns and every thing that he might have in savings, etc.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Are you sure that he is not having an affair? It's very typical for people who are in an affair to want to take a break from their marriage to try out the affair partner.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

We live in Detroit. But he hasn't abused me. He said I should get a job and my own apartment. But i dont think I can with a new job, or a minimum wage job that i can find on short notice. He said by our state laws his money is not mine. I have access to his money still, but he will have to pay for daycare so there will be little money left now. He is not mean to me, he is very friendly and nice. He is just not in love with me. 

I also have bipolar disorder, its a milder case and I'm doing great on medications, but I think that is going to make it hard for me to have custody. People misunderstand bipolar disorder and think one missed pill will make me go psycho. I want to grad school to become an accountant so I can earn as much money as he does as an engineer, in case he were to die or if we divorced I wanted to be able to maintain the same support for my kids. I'm top of my class and have received small scholarships and I'm on the fast track to graduate masters in one year. All my professors say I will get a good job at this fall's recruitment fair. 

The only problem is that my university has a housing shortage and I'm at the end of the waitlist. There is not even a guarantee I will be assigned housing or receive the additional financial aid.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

He can't make you leave. You're the one with kids who need a place to live. Tell him to move out if he's so unhappy.

He is LYING to you about the money. Do you understand? Any money earned by EITHER person when married is legally the property of BOTH of you. Go to the school counselor and tell her what he is doing. She'll get you in touch with legal help to stop him from trying to kick you out.

Is he naturally controlling or angry?


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

Yes I'm sure he is not having an affair. He only goes to work and then home. He may want the freedom to have an opportunity to pursue a romantic interest if he finds one. But he thinks marriage and relationships are too painful to deal with so I don't think thats his motivation. 

We had a lot of bad fights before I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. I know that is what caused him to hate the idea of marriage and wives. I knew I had a psychiatric problem when I read marital self-help books and wasn't able to control my own behavior and follow the advice. I got help last year and started doing better immediately. We fight only once a month, usually about the kids because they have become a huge stressor and because my husband is unhappy being married I guess, so he picks fights.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

turnera said:


> He can't make you leave. You're the one with kids who need a place to live. Tell him to move out if he's so unhappy.
> 
> He is LYING to you about the money. Do you understand? Any money earned by EITHER person when married is legally the property of BOTH of you. Go to the school counselor and tell her what he is doing. She'll get you in touch with legal help to stop him from trying to kick you out.
> 
> Is he naturally controlling or angry?


I guess he can be controlling, he's so nice about it but he does pick fights the day after I don't do something he asked me nicely to do. Even things that are his responsibility to do, not mine. He said he didn't want to stay after our last argument, and then I said ok so go, because he had talked about getting his own apartment. But when I said ok go then, he said no this is my apartment, I pay for it, you leave. I smoothed it over and just moved into a different bedroom. He used to say he would pay for an apartment for me if we separate, but he's changed for some reason.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

How can he be forced to pay for me? I chose to be a stay at home mom and then a full time student. He was always against me being at home instead of working and putting the kids in daycare. Its my fault that I didnt work to save money up to be independent.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's why you need legal advice. The apartment or home is yours, too. He has no legal right to kick you out. Simply refuse to leave. And if he then leaves and refuses to pay for it, your lawyer will take steps so that he is at the very least forced to pay to support his children. It's the law. But you won't get anywhere without getting that help.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

turnera said:


> That's why you need legal advice. The apartment or home is yours, too. He has no legal right to kick you out. Simply refuse to leave. And if he then leaves and refuses to pay for it, your lawyer will take steps so that he is at the very least forced to pay to support his children. It's the law. But you won't get anywhere without getting that help.


But no divorce has been filed. How can he pay for support now? I still need insurance to pay for my psychiatric care until I have my own insurance, so he won't file for divorce until then.

And the lease is ending this month. He isn't renewing it and I can't renew it on my own.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

luxnoctis said:


> I guess he can be controlling,


https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/friendship-20/201506/20-signs-your-partner-is-controlling

https://www.abuseandrelationships.org/Content/Behaviors/subtle_control.html

Tell tale signs, is your partner is too controlling?


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

Oh and I mean lease ends this month but he is doing month-to-month for July until his new place is ready for move-in. He agreed to take my stuff there and I'm hoping I can convince him to let me stay until sept when hopefully I will get on campus housing.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

luxnoctis said:


> But no divorce has been filed. How can he pay for support now? I still need insurance to pay for my psychiatric care until I have my own insurance, so he won't file for divorce until then.
> 
> And the lease is ending this month. He isn't renewing it and I can't renew it on my own.


Look, you're an adult. You'll have to address this one way or another. That means facing him and saying "it's impossible for me to just suddenly be on my own with 2 kids while I'm still in school, and it's impossible for me to come up with money to even GET a place in the next 2 days. You owe it to me to cover the rent for at least the next month while we figure out what is going to happen. If you walk out of here tomorrow and leave me stranded, I'm going to have to take drastic measures to get access to the FAMILY money so that OUR kids have a roof over their head. So what's it going to be? You cover rent for the next month or you give me half the money from our bank account or I'm forced to do whatever it takes to get access to money from you?"

Ok, ETA, then, since he'll be there for the next month, you tell him you are NOT moving out, you and the kids WILL be staying there for the month of July and the two of you will figure out how to divide the family's assets from there.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

turnera said:


> Look, you're an adult. You'll have to address this one way or another. That means facing him and saying "it's impossible for me to just suddenly be on my own with 2 kids while I'm still in school, and it's impossible for me to come up with money to even GET a place in the next 2 days. You owe it to me to cover the rent for at least the next month while we figure out what is going to happen. If you walk out of here tomorrow and leave me stranded, I'm going to have to take drastic measures to get access to the FAMILY money so that OUR kids have a roof over their head. So what's it going to be? You cover rent for the next month or you give me half the money from our bank account or I'm forced to do whatever it takes to get access to money from you?"
> 
> Ok, ETA, then, since he'll be there for the next month, you tell him you are NOT moving out, you and the kids WILL be staying there for the month of July and the two of you will figure out how to divide the family's assets from there.


I have told him and that I want to stay for August, even if its the new place until I can move on campus. He is not brutal, even if he doesn't like it he will agree to that at least.

The second link you sent me about controlling behavior, he does do several of those things. "Ingratiating behavior, Never be understood, Abuse of Truisms, never agreeing, pretending not to understand, trolling, toxic delegation, walkless talk, projective identification, and just enough." Not as extreme as some of the examples the article mentions. Thanks for posting that, I never knew these labels. My therapist just said his behavior is "crazy-making" because the argument is not really about anything except semantics and redefining things and is just exhausting because its an argument that cannot be resolved. 

The trolling is the most annoying thing. That alone broke down our listening and talking part of our relationship. It took me a long time to realize that was happening.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> How can he be forced to pay for me? I chose to be a stay at home mom and then a full time student. He was always against me being at home instead of working and putting the kids in daycare. Its my fault that I didnt work to save money up to be independent.


It does not matter at this point if you made that decision. He cannot throw you out of your home. It is legally your home. If you went to the police and told them that he will not allow you to live in your home with your children, the police will go there, throw him out and give him a restraining order so that he cannot go near you. then they will allow you to move back into your home (apartment, whatever).

Only a court of law can order you out of your home.

Now how can he be forced to pay?

You can file for either a legal separation or a divorce. Either way since he is the one with an income, he is the going to have to help support you until you find a job. And he will not be able to force you out of the home that your children live in.

The if you file for a legal separation, you will get "separate maintenance". The amount is determined by looking at both of your incomes. The idea is to make so that both of you have about half of the income. So while his income might be his, it's also yours. He will also have to pay you child support if you earn less than he does. With a legal separation, this will continue the entire time you remain married but separated. So the amount of "separate maintenance" will need to be recalculated from time to time as your incomes change.

For example if you end up earning more than he does, you would have to pay him "separate maintenance". Here is a link to some info about legal separation in your state.

Separation vs. Divorce in Michigan | LegalZoom Legal Info

You have rights that you apparently are not aware of.

Now with a divorce, you will also get temporary spousal support and child support until the divorce is final. Again the goal of the court will be to have both of you have about the same amount of money. If you get a job, your income will be considered. 

Then, after the divorce, you might get some rehabilitative support for some period of time. If you get it, it might be for about half the length of your marriage and no longer than the full length of your marriage since yours is a short term marriage.

Alimony in Michigan | DivorceNet

You have rights in marriage. Your husband cannot throw you out on the street. He cannot keep your children from you.

And you having bi-polar will not keep you from having custody of your children. As long as you are under the care of a doctor, you are taking your meds and doing well, there is no issue at all with you having custody of your children.

Usually what happens is that a each parent get shared custody. You and your husband will share custody as close to 50% each as possible. 

Please go see an attorney ASAP. You need an attorney who is very familiar with the courts and judges in your city. One who understands your rights in a situation where your husband has thrown you on the street. That's why I suggested that you go to an organization for domestic abuse. They often have lists of attorneys who work on your case for free and help you.

Your husband cannot throw you out like that. By the way, even if he told you to leave, you did not have to. You could have refused. Why did you leave? Why do you think he had to right to throw you out?

But you need to wake up and fight for yourself and for your children.

Yes, fight for your children. Do realize how much seeing you thrown out of your home has harmed your children? You need fight for them.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> But no divorce has been filed. How can he pay for support now?


He thinks that he has all the power and so he threw you out of your home. He does not have that power at all. What he did is illegal. You have every right to go move back into whatever place he is living with your children.

The way you get him to help you right now is that you show him that you have rights too. You either file for a legal separation for a divorce. Remember that if you file for divorce, it does not end the marriage until the final papers are signed by a judge. A divorce can take months, even years to finish. So if he changes his mind and the two of you decide to get back together, you just petition the court to stop the divorce. There is also remarriage after divorce.

As long as you allow you to push you around like this, he is going to do it. He has no respect for you. But you can take a stand for your rights and let him know that you have rights too and he cannot do this to you and your children.



luxnoctis said:


> I still need insurance to pay for my psychiatric care until I have my own insurance, so he won't file for divorce until then.


Yes you can. Part of filing for divorce is to have a paragraph in the paperwork that says that he has to continue to pay for your health insurance and cannot stop paying for it until the divorce is final. You can even ask that he pay for it after your divorce is final for some period of time.

If you file for a legal separation, you can put a paragraph in it that he has to keep you on his health insurance forever, or until you get another plan on your own. After all, with a legal separation you are still married.

Further, if you are low income you can get on Medicaid.



luxnoctis said:


> And the lease is ending this month. He isn't renewing it and I can't renew it on my own.


Where is he moving to after the lease is up?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

By the way, I'm curious, what are you getting your degree in? How much longer do you have until you finish?


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

Elegirl knows what she is talking about. Your husband clearly does not. He is legally obligated to support you and your children until a judge decides otherwise. Follow Elegirl's advice. I wish you the best.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

luxnoctis said:


> The trolling is the most annoying thing. That alone broke down our listening and talking part of our relationship. It took me a long time to realize that was happening.


Can you give some examples?


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

luxnoctis said:


> How can he be forced to pay for me? I chose to be a stay at home mom and then a full time student. He was always against me being at home instead of working and putting the kids in daycare. Its my fault that I didnt work to save money up to be independent.


What country are you two from?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

john117 said:


> What country are you two from?


They live in Detroit.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

Im getting masters of accounting and i can finish summer 2018 unless I take a winter internship which means im not allowed to take classes for that semester. He is moving to an apartment across the street from my university and near his work.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

turnera said:


> luxnoctis said:
> 
> 
> > The trolling is the most annoying thing. That alone broke down our listening and talking part of our relationship. It took me a long time to realize that was happening.
> ...


He asks my opinion on some news story and makes it an argument and i realize it was a trap. And even with medication its hard to calm emotions down and just stop talking to him.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> Im getting masters of accounting and i can finish summer 2018 unless I take a winter internship which means im not allowed to take classes for that semester.


Do you get paid for the internship? That's a great degree to have. You will be able to earn a good living if only you can finish it. Do you have a BA in accounting?

If you file for a legal separation and/or a divorce, you should make a point about you needing help until you finish the degree. This is exactly why the law allows for rehabilitative spouse support. This way you will be able to earn enough money to support yourself and share to a large degree in the expenses of raising your children. It's for the benefit of your children. And this benefits their father as well since eventually he would be paying a lot less in child support.



luxnoctis said:


> He is moving to an apartment across the street from my university and near his work.


Now that we have more info, here is a further suggestion.

He said you can stay until August. So in the mean time file for either divorce or legal separation. In that get an agreement about him helping you with money to get a place to live with your children and for him to pay you spousal support and child support.

The would pay you the spousal support until your degree is final and you have a job. 

The child support would be adjusted after you have a job.

Once you have your degree, would you earn more than he earns now? Or about the same? or less?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> He asks my opinion on some news story and makes it an argument and i realize it was a trap. And even with medication its hard to calm emotions down and just stop talking to him.


Are you in counseling? You need to learn the skills so that you walk away as soon as you notice an interaction getting out of control.

By the way, if he does this, he's got a serious problem. That's pretty ugly behavior on his part.


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## john117 (May 20, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> They live in Detroit.



I saw that, but she seems quite unfamiliar with basic family law so...


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

john117 said:


> I saw that, but she seems quite unfamiliar with basic family law so...


My mother and father divorced. My mom has been telling me things that happened in her divorce and my husband and her have said similar things. I don't know anyone else who knows a thing about family law. My support system consists of my mom and my husband. Both of whom my therapist has described as not supportive. I've only had bipolar treatment for 1 year; before that I had no self esteem, confidence, and was severely depressed. Half of my life has been spent in a fog of misery wishing I was dead. A year is very little time to realize how the people around me have been treating me and being able to recognize my rights.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

Sorry to say, but you're fooling yourself if you think he isnt cheating. People come on here all the time INSISTING that the partner wanting out cant possibly be cheating, because all they do is go to work and hang out at home. And almost EVERY TIME, that partner IS cheating. I will eat my shoe if your husband doesnt already have someone. 

What exactly is his reasoning for wanting to end the marriage? I havent really seen that spelled out. The only thing that really has been stated is your bipolar issues. Is that it? What reason did he actually tell you?


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Are you in counseling? You need to learn the skills so that you walk away as soon as you notice an interaction getting out of control.
> 
> By the way, if he does this, he's got a serious problem. That's pretty ugly behavior on his part.


I was seeing a therapist but we moved away and now I drive an hour to see the same pysch every month. I don't want to add therapy appts to that or I will be there every other week. 

He does have problems. He was emotionally and psychologically abused for 20 years and is messed up from that. I used to think I was all to blame for everything but my therapist got me to start thinking that he isn't treating me well. She advised me to consider my future and be ready to leave him. That's why I enrolled in school. I do not have a degree in accounting, I have a studies degree that I can't get work for by itself. I spent the last year taking accounting courses required to start the graduate program. I need 10 classes to finish, which will take this fall, winter, and summer 1 semesters. 

My advisor said the internships are paid well, $15 to $20 but you are not allowed to take any courses. In september the companies are hiring for the winter semester, tax season and will require working up to 80 hours a week. After the semester ends they may keep me on or let me go based on their needs. 

I will likely make less than my husband unless I am hired by one of the Big 4, then I will make the same or a little more than him. In the first case I will catch up to him about 2 years from now when I pass the CPA exam.

If I do get an internship and am paid well but it ends after the 4 months, how will that affect everything?


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

3Xnocharm said:


> Sorry to say, but you're fooling yourself if you think he isnt cheating. People come on here all the time INSISTING that the partner wanting out cant possibly be cheating, because all they do is go to work and hang out at home. And almost EVERY TIME, that partner IS cheating. I will eat my shoe if your husband doesnt already have someone.
> 
> What exactly is his reasoning for wanting to end the marriage? I havent really seen that spelled out. The only thing that really has been stated is your bipolar issues. Is that it? What reason did he actually tell you?


Well get your shoe out. Despite everything I know my husband very well, he experienced trauma for a long time and then married an undiagnosed bipolar woman. That combination made him decide to emotionally shut down. He would rather be alone with his two sons. He believes all relationships involve too much emotion and pain. His family is also very religious and he has a HUGE guilt complex. Add his lack of social skills with women and there's someone who can't sleep with another women and me at the same time. I know he wants to start over but I also know there is no one else at the moment. 

The reason for ending it is because my issues combined with his issues makes horrible fights. He provokes and escalates disputes into terrible fights and then can't handle the emotional toll of that. From what I've gathered, most husbands would have left early on due to the fighting, or not be so affected by fights over NOTHING, literally nothing. Our fights are just presentations of our own conflicting emotional and psychological problems.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Are you in counseling? You need to learn the skills so that you walk away as soon as you notice an interaction getting out of control.


Not as easy as it sounds. I know the skills but he is literally the worst possible person to be with considering my emotional issues, even medicated. My therapist told me that I'm able to handle conflict with maturity but anyone would lose their cool when faced with my husband's crazy-making and exhausting way of behaving. He doesn't respect my wishes when I tell him I don't want to talk anymore right now and instead tries very desperately to provoke me in order to keep me in the fight.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> My mother and father divorced. My mom has been telling me things that happened in her divorce and my husband and her have said similar things. I don't know anyone else who knows a thing about family law. My support system consists of my mom and my husband. Both of whom my therapist has described as not supportive. I've only had bipolar treatment for 1 year; before that I had no self esteem, confidence, and was severely depressed. Half of my life has been spent in a fog of misery wishing I was dead. A year is very little time to realize how the people around me have been treating me and being able to recognize my rights.


Where did your mother live when she got her divorce? Did she have an attorney of her own, one that did not also represent her husband?

Yes, a year is a short time to do all that. And to be honest, from what you have written, you are doing some amazing things in recognizing what your issue are and addressing them. So that's says a lot of good things about you.

So you don't know a lot of your legal rights. We on this forum are trying to help you find out your rights and find the right way to use your rights and stand up to your husband who is not treating you very well at all.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Where did your mother live when she got her divorce? Did she have an attorney of her own, one that did not also represent her husband?


She lived in the same state as we are. I don't know about lawyers they had but I know she was in almost the same situation as me. She was working on a chemistry degree when my dad filed for divorce and had 3 kids. He is also an engineer and used his money to try to get full custody and forced her into to debt fighting that. So I don't know if that means she had her own lawyer or not. They got joint custody and he was ordered to pay child support but rarely did. She told me she didn't go to court about it because he threatened to fight again in court. 

I know now she has very wrong ideas that she has been telling me for years, but with divorce I thought at least she went through it and learned about the process. This is another instance where I am realizing she has yet again misinformed me and failed to support me. Takes time for these lessons to stick apparently!!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> I was seeing a therapist but we moved away and now I drive an hour to see the same pysch every month. I don't want to add therapy appts to that or I will be there every other week.


Ok, so you are in therapy already. Since you only see your therapist once a month, you might benefit from some books that would help you get a lot of insight in addition to what you get from your therapist. Here is one that I think would really help you.

*Why Does He Do That?: Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men* – by Lundy Bancroft



luxnoctis said:


> He does have problems. He was emotionally and psychologically abused for 20 years and is messed up from that. I used to think I was all to blame for everything but my therapist got me to start thinking that he isn't treating me well. She advised me to consider my future and be ready to leave him. That's why I enrolled in school. I do not have a degree in accounting, I have a studies degree that I can't get work for by itself. I spent the last year taking accounting courses required to start the graduate program. I need 10 classes to finish, which will take this fall, winter, and summer 1 semesters.


Your therapist was wise to advise you to prepare for a life on your own. And good for you for listeing to her. 


luxnoctis said:


> My advisor said the internships are paid well, $15 to $20 but you are not allowed to take any courses. In september the companies are hiring for the winter semester, tax season and will require working up to 80 hours a week. After the semester ends they may keep me on or let me go based on their needs.
> 
> I will likely make less than my husband unless I am hired by one of the Big 4, then I will make the same or a little more than him. In the first case I will catch up to him about 2 years from now when I pass the CPA exam.
> 
> If I do get an internship and am paid well but it ends after the 4 months, how will that affect everything?


When you get an attorney, talk to your attorney about the internship and about whether or not to take the internship or just finish up your course work. It sounds like the internship might prolong you getting your degree. It might not be worth it. It might be better to get your degree and then look for a job. Again, do what your attorney advises.

Very likely, if you take the internship, the spousal support and child support will be adjusted to include your income while you are earning the money. Then it will the spousal support and child support can be re-calculated once you are back just taking classes. However, his attorney might argue that this is all unfair to your soon-to-be-ex (stbx) and that once you are earning the via the internship, the spousal support should remain the lower. And then your attorney will argue that the goal here is to get you to a point where you can earn a good living. And the attorneys and the court will work it out.

Get a good attorney, talk to the attorney and do what the attorney tells you to do.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> Not as easy as it sounds. I know the skills but he is literally the worst possible person to be with considering my emotional issues, even medicated. My therapist told me that I'm able to handle conflict with maturity but anyone would lose their cool when faced with my husband's crazy-making and exhausting way of behaving. He doesn't respect my wishes when I tell him I don't want to talk anymore right now and instead tries very desperately to provoke me in order to keep me in the fight.


Your husband sounds a lot like my son's father. So I get what you are saying. I'm not bipolar... generally I've very stable emotionally. But that man was impossible. He would do the same kind of things that you say that your husband does. 

I came from a family in which no one ever fought except for silly sibling type nonsense. In my family of origin (FOO) there were my parents and 8 children (4 sisters, 3 brothers and me). There was never any kind of yelling or fighting.

So I had no idea how to handle my ex. For some time I tried to reason with him when he would act like your describe your husband. And he would just get louder and more angry. Eventually I figured out that it was impossible and I stopped trying to reason. I refused to talk to him if he acted like that. It helped. But I could not deal with an angry man who just wanted to fight all the time.

You talk about how difficult your bi-polar issues have been on him. Well to me it sounds like his issues are equally as difficult on you. To be honest, he might also be bipolar or have some other personality disorder.

You probably are better off divorcing so that each of you can deal with your own issues.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> She lived in the same state as we are. I don't know about lawyers they had but I know she was in almost the same situation as me. She was working on a chemistry degree when my dad filed for divorce and had 3 kids. He is also an engineer and used his money to try to get full custody and forced her into to debt fighting that. So I don't know if that means she had her own lawyer or not. They got joint custody and he was ordered to pay child support but rarely did. She told me she didn't go to court about it because he threatened to fight again in court.


From what you describe, they each had their own attorney. I want to address a couple of the things you said here:


luxnoctis said:


> He is also an engineer and used his money to try to get full custody and forced her into to debt fighting that.


Did you father kick your mother out the way your husband is trying to do to you? I’m just curious.

You can have your attorney ask that your husband pay your legal fees since you have no money of your own. In a divorce, the courts want both parties to have equal representation. If the court will order him to pay your legal fees, then if he tries to fight unjustly, it will simply drive up his own costs because he has to pay your fees. One of those links I gave says that the courts in your state allow this. It might be that your mother’s attorney was not enough of a fighter and did not fight for this.

My ex did the same thing to me that your father tried to do to your mother. I’m an engineer. He’s a physician. So, I had one attorney. He had a team of attorneys. He tried everything that he could get full custody. He easily spent 4 times what I spent. I just had a very good attorney, thank goodness.


luxnoctis said:


> They got joint custody and he was ordered to pay child support but rarely did. She told me she didn't go to court about it because he threatened to fight again in court.


Things have changed since your mother got her divorce. Today, you can get the court to order that the child support is taken out of your husband’s paycheck and that his company sends the child support directly to you. The same can be done with spousal support.



luxnoctis said:


> I know now she has very wrong ideas that she has been telling me for years, but with divorce I thought at least she went through it and learned about the process. This is another instance where I am realizing she has yet again misinformed me and failed to support me. Takes time for these lessons to stick apparently!!


Your mother’s experience is her own experience. A lot has changed since then.

There are all kinds of information that is available today via the internet and even in books for each state so that a person can learn about divorce in their state. So, you can learn a lot very quickly about your rights.
You can most likely find an attorney who will take your case pro bono (no cost to you) through an organization that helps abused people. Often these attorneys will petition the court to have your husband pay your legal fees. So, in the end they are not doing it for free. But they don’t charge you up front since you don’t have access to the money to pay a retainer.

You can also probably find attorneys who are willing to give you a half hour to one hour consultation. You can ask them all kinds of questions. The idea is to interview them until you find one who will fight for you without causing fights to drive up his/her legal fees. Also ask people you know who they would recommend. Find out who the best attorneys are locally and see if one of them will take your case and ask the court to have your husband pay your fees.

Do you know where all the information is on all of your husband’s finances? Make sure you have all the info of account number, balances, etc. Also make sure you know his social security number, social security numbers for all you children, have copies of all of your family (you, him and kids) birth certificates. Just get copies or originals for everything and find somewhere safe to store it.

I want to be clear about something. I am not talking about your dragging your husband through hell financially. In a couple of years, you will be able to support yourself very well. You will be able to pay your fair share towards supporting our children. It is in the best interests of everyone that you finish your degree. Yes, it’s even in your husband’s best interest. It will reduce his about of child support he will have to pay after you get your degree. Your children will be better off by far with two parents working in a professional capacity, earning enough to help them achieve what they want in life.

Your children will be better off is the two of you share 50% custody.

You and your children will be better off if you are not thrown out of your home like he wants to do and separated from your children. He is so wrong doing that. You have rights and the laws protects your rights.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

luxnoctis said:


> My mother and father divorced. My mom has been telling me things that happened in her divorce and my husband and her have said similar things. I don't know anyone else who knows a thing about family law. My support system consists of my mom and my husband. Both of whom my therapist has described as not supportive. I've only had bipolar treatment for 1 year; before that I had no self esteem, confidence, and was severely depressed. Half of my life has been spent in a fog of misery wishing I was dead. A year is very little time to realize how the people around me have been treating me and being able to recognize my rights.


Then your first job, starting today, is to start making friends. Smile at everyone you see. Say hi if you have the chance. If you see people daily, say hi every day, until it starts becoming normal to just strike up a conversation. Like if that girl is in your class, say 'what do you think about this teacher?' or 'are you having trouble with the homework? I am!' or something like that. If it's a worker in the school cafeteria, ask her if she likes the job, cos you may have to get one this semester. Or post a note for a study buddy. What you need in your life is NORMAL. You apparently don't know what normal looks like, but it's not what you have in your life. Normal people enjoy being around each other, don't tear each other or other people down, look for the good in people, smile and laugh a lot, help others. 

If you start getting more of this in your life, you'll start to understand the great options you have in life, for you and for your kids.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

luxnoctis said:


> He asks my opinion on some news story and makes it an argument and i realize it was a trap. And even with medication its hard to calm emotions down and just stop talking to him.


Yeah, you're right. Just don't engage. "Oh, ok." "You must be right." "I guess so."


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Are the kids just his kids or are they yours, too? That wasn't clear.

fwiw, lux, you sound VERY intelligent. You just have been basically brainwashed your whole life. It took me decades to figure out the things you're figuring out now, so give yourself a pat on the back. The progress you're making is amazing. And accounting is hard! Be prepared, though, it took my brother 3 tries to pass the CPA. 

Anyway, what to do today? Work on making friends, you'll need them, and you'll be amazed how good it makes you feel to have real friends. It takes awhile to make good friends, so start today!

And go to your campus and go to the Student Services building. Tell them you need help with therapy (you can see two therapists at the same time) and you need legal help. They will connect you with someone to help you.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> You talk about how difficult your bi-polar issues have been on him. Well to me it sounds like his issues are equally as difficult on you. To be honest, he might also be bipolar or have some other personality disorder.
> 
> You probably are better off divorcing so that each of you can deal with your own issues.


I have felt guilty about him because when we first married he was a different person. He still did some of the same things but on a very small scale. My depression, paranoia and unstable moods brought out the worst in him and made him bitter and cynical. He never was before. So his issues became more prominent. I keep thinking that if I hadn't had those issues he wouldn't have become so completely heartless and fight dirty.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Just so you know, abusive men are usually wonderful when you first get together. That's how they rope you in; they have awesome personalities - until they don't need to anymore because you're already not going anywhere. Read the book Why Does He Do That? as soon as possible; it will shed some light on things.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Did you father kick your mother out the way your husband is trying to do to you? I’m just curious.
> 
> You can most likely find an attorney who will take your case pro bono (no cost to you) through an organization that helps abused people.
> 
> ...


My mom left the house and moved into a townhome down the street. I don't know how she paid for it, maybe my dad cosigned it. 

I looked up organizations listed on my university website but they all mention domestic violence. He was never physically violent. I will go to see a counselor on campus and see if they can direct me where to go. 

My husband says he wants to support me and help me get a good future and not be like my dad was to my mom. But he is very fickle and unreliable. He says he doesn't want to use lawyers and let things get nasty. When I talk about my rights he says I want to fight him in court. So I feel an underlying threat that if I don't agree to what he _says_ he wants to do for me then he will not play nice. He says he will pay for my insurance, and my car (although both cars are in both our names) and promises to cosign an apartment for me and leave me access to his money for food etc. But I know him and our finances and I know that his promises will fall apart when he decides it isn't fair to him and I am pretty sure he cannot afford to have his own apartment and cosign for one for me. He will also his support to contorl me and harrass me about what foods I buy, etc, which he already does now. 

I have access to everything, where can I go for the cheapest copying service? I know his social security number by heart but not our kids. Btw who keeps the hard copies of social security cards in divorce? I believe I am the primary caregiver since I have been at home with them, I set up their drs appts and take them, he never does. My older son also needs OT and speech therapy, and I was the only one who realized something wasn't right with his development while he and my mom said nothings wrong and he will suddenly develop, etc. So I was the one who asked for early-on services, then enrolled him in head start and asked his dr for referrals, got his eyesight checked and took him to get glasses. My husband had no part in any of that. We moved every year for his job so I have found new drs for everyone each year and honestly spent hours dealing with that. The first pediatrician visit with a new doctor always takes 3 hours, for each kid. He never appreciated how much work all of that was and still is. I don't know what will happen if he has full custody. He is terrible at managing appts and following drs and teachers recommendations. 

Also what does joint custody look like these days? I hated it when I was growing up. We had to switch homes every Friday at 5pm and my dad lived 30 mins from our school and had to drive us back and forth. He also remarried a horrible woman who treated us like slaves and made me live in terror. Her children bullied me every day and my dad did nothing about it. I would scream and beg my mom every other Friday to not have to go. I don't want my kids to feel torn between two homes like I did. My husband is better with our kids than my dad was, but I still don't know what joint custody will look like. I feel like he gets to enjoy playing with the kids, taking them to the beach and parks while I deal with all the annoying stuff like dr visits, therapy appts, meetings with the school, and ensuring the bills are paid for these services, etc. 

How can you tell if an attorney is the kind who will drive up prices?


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

turnera said:


> Then your first job, starting today, is to start making friends. Smile at everyone you see. Say hi if you have the chance. If you see people daily, say hi every day, until it starts becoming normal to just strike up a conversation. Like if that girl is in your class, say 'what do you think about this teacher?' or 'are you having trouble with the homework? I am!' or something like that.


I've gotten much better at that. I have the confidence now to initiate conversations and I do have classmates I get along with well. One in particular received the same scholarship as me and is going to be in every class I am. I really like her personality too, but I still have a fear about asking her to hang out socially. All my friendships with people I actually really liked have ended badly before. I'm scared of ruining that and having to see her for all of our classes.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

turnera said:


> Are the kids just his kids or are they yours, too? That wasn't clear.


Thank you and yes they are both our children. Both our first marriage.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

It sounds to me like you would be better off without him/each other. Honestly he sounds emotionally abusive to me. I'm sure that dealing with someone who is bipolar can be challenging, but it doesnt give the other person the right to be a jerk.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> I have felt guilty about him because when we first married he was a different person. He still did some of the same things but on a very small scale. My depression, paranoia and unstable moods brought out the worst in him and made him bitter and cynical. He never was before. So his issues became more prominent. I keep thinking that if I hadn't had those issues he wouldn't have become so completely heartless and fight dirty.


Tunera is right. Abusive men are always nice, even seem to be wonderful, when you first get together with them. Then over time they escalate and get more and more abusive.

Also, abusive men look for women who are easy to abuse. They look for women are who have low self esteem, are unsure of them selves and who have issue like you have. They do not do this consciously, but it comes from the patterns that they learned as a child. A woman who has issues like you have had, is easy to control and abuse.

Have you ever thought that his crazy behavior might have fed into your BPD? That he might have helped to ramp up your issues? Often, in relationships like your, both people spiral out of control because your mental health issues feed off each other. And over time you end up with a relationship like the one you have.

At least you have been aware enough, and intelligent enough, to start dealing with your issues. He apparently does not even realize that he has issues and blames you for everything. The fact that he has not been getting help for his own issues tells me that he thinks he has no problems, only you do.

You are far stronger emotionally than he is.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> I've gotten much better at that. I have the confidence now to initiate conversations and I do have classmates I get along with well. One in particular received the same scholarship as me and is going to be in every class I am. I really like her personality too, but I still have a fear about asking her to hang out socially. All my friendships with people I actually really liked have ended badly before. I'm scared of ruining that and having to see her for all of our classes.


Take it slowly. Perhaps you could just ask if she would like to get coffee or something small like that. 

Also, if you go to one of the local organizations for domestic abuse, you might be able to join a counseling group. When I left my son's father I did that. There was one women in the group who I made friends with. We just clicked. That was in 1995. She and I became friends and help each other through our divorce. She has 3 sons. I have one. So we ended up helping each other with our children as well. Today, 22 years later, we are still each other's major support. Our children are all grown, hers are out of college and work. My son is working on his Phd. And she and I still get together almost every week. My point? You can meet good people in the oddest places. And often, when you go some place like to a support group, you are likely to meet someone who is going through a hard time just like you are and need support as much as you do.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Michigan is not a community property state. Please consult with a lawyer to protect your rights.

https://michiganlegalhelp.org/self-help-tools/family/divorce-basics-dividing-your-property-and-debt


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

luxnoctis said:


> I've gotten much better at that. I have the confidence now to initiate conversations and I do have classmates I get along with well. One in particular received the same scholarship as me and is going to be in every class I am. I really like her personality too, but I still have a fear about asking her to hang out socially. All my friendships with people I actually really liked have ended badly before. I'm scared of ruining that and having to see her for all of our classes.


Why did they end badly? Abused people usually tend to attract Users as friends, who then end up treating the abused person badly unless they continue to be the Giver in the relationship.

Just ask her to have lunch with you. 

My DD26 had the same problem with girlfriends. She was so needy (long story) that she'd pick Users and then she'd get trashed. Her picker was off, like yours probably is. So in her junior year of college, I told her to not offer to DO anything for anyone she met that year. Just talk to them. Don't buy them lunch, don't lend pens, don't offer to give them a ride. The people who are Users will drift away because they're not getting anything out of the relationship; anyone who still is talking to you is a good person and a good friend. She made the best friends that year.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

luxnoctis said:


> I looked up organizations listed on my university website but they all mention domestic violence. He was never physically violent. I will go to see a counselor on campus and see if they can direct me where to go.


 You need to be going to the counselor regularly, anyway. She will help you understand what normal looks like. And the only difference between a mental abuser and a physical abuser is that the latter ADDS physical pain on top of all the other mental abuse. So do go try out those organizations. It still works the same.



> He says he doesn't want to use lawyers and let things get nasty.


Of course he says that. He wants to maintain control. You don't have to tell him you're going to a lawyer. In fact, with an abuser, you'd be foolish to tell him. Let the lawyer guide you and do it on your own. You can also try United Way to get help.



> When I talk about my rights he says I want to fight him in court. So I feel an underlying threat that if I don't agree to what he _says_ he wants to do for me then he will not play nice.


You are correct. He is attempting to control you. Get a lawyer and do what the lawyer says.



> I am pretty sure he cannot afford to have his own apartment and cosign for one for me. He will also his support to control me and harass me about what foods I buy, etc, which he already does now.


It doesn't matter what he can afford; he has kids with you. He is legally obligated to provide enough money for you to have a place for you and the kids to live safely and decently. He doesn't get to say anything about it. But you MUST let a lawyer handle this. Abusers won't just hand over the money without an authority figure (lawyer) forcing him to.



> I have access to everything, where can I go for the cheapest copying service?


Doesn't the school offer cheap copying? Mine did. If the copying is too expensive, look into scanning - you can keep the records electronically (somewhere safe, away from him), until you can afford later to print them out. I'm sure the school offers scanning.



> I know his social security number by heart but not our kids. Btw who keeps the hard copies of social security cards in divorce? I believe I am the primary caregiver


You will almost certainly be awarded primary custody (meaning you make day-to-day decisions for them), so you will need copies of all legal stuff like SS #s and insurance cards.



> I don't know what will happen if he has full custody.


Barring you going to jail or something, it would be almost impossible for him to get full custody. But DO document every single thing that goes on in your life and in your kids' lives. Keep it all in a notebook. Keep it somewhere safe.



> Also what does joint custody look like these days?
> 
> I feel like he gets to enjoy playing with the kids, taking them to the beach and parks while I deal with all the annoying stuff like dr visits, therapy appts, meetings with the school, and ensuring the bills are paid for these services, etc.


That's ok. You being the parent who 'takes care of them' will mean that they grow up trusting and loving you. If all he does is play Disney Dad, they'll eat it up at first but, like a kid with a bucket of candy, it will soon get old and lose its thrill. They will rally around the normalness and the consistency and the safety that you offer as the 'non-fun' parent. 



> How can you tell if an attorney is the kind who will drive up prices?


Google attorney + your town + reviews. That way, you can pick one who's getting consistently good reviews.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> My mom left the house and moved into a townhome down the street. I don't know how she paid for it, maybe my dad cosigned it.


This might be interesting for you to know. Why did she move out? Did he tell her to move so she just complied? Or did she move out because she had to get away from him for her own wellbeing? Did you children move with her?



luxnoctis said:


> I looked up organizations listed on my university website but they all mention domestic violence. He was never physically violent. I will go to see a counselor on campus and see if they can direct me where to go.


Organizations that handle domestic abuse often use the term ‘domestic violence’ but they also handle non-violent type abuse.



luxnoctis said:


> My husband says he wants to support me and help me get a good future and not be like my dad was to my mom. But he is very fickle and unreliable.


Yea, my son’s father told me the same thing. He told me that even though we were getting a divorce, he would always take care of me financially. LOL A lot of men who divorce their wives tell their wives this. It never actually happens. 

When we separated, he had joined a medical practice in a small town in New Mexico 80 miles from civilization. I moved with him. Then he wanted a divorce. So, I moved back to the closest big city where I could get a job. So, I had no income and I had our son with me. Do you know what he wanted to give me? $300 a month. He made close to $200K, I had paid for his medical school and supported him for years. But when I needed some support he wanted to give me $300 a month. That did not even cover the utilizes in the house (we owned the house I was living in). That is what he called taking care of me financially.

Thank goodness, I found a wonder lawyer. She was a 5’2” talk, tiny women, 63 years old. And no one could out negotiate or out maneuver her. LOL Within a week he was court ordered to pay me support that equaled basically half his income until I found a job. I was able to find a job within 3 months. So, at that point the support was adjusted to take income into consideration. And the entire time he complained about every penny he was court ordered to give me. 

Your husband, like mine, is saying that he will support you to help ease you out the door, to get rid of you. It makes him feel better about himself. But when it comes time, don’t depend on that.



luxnoctis said:


> He says he doesn't want to use lawyers and let things get nasty. When I talk about my rights he says I want to fight him in court. So I feel an underlying threat that if I don't agree to what he _says_ he wants to do for me then he will not play nice. He says he will pay for my insurance, and my car (although both cars are in both our names) and promises to cosign an apartment for me and leave me access to his money for food etc. But I know him and our finances and I know that his promises will fall apart when he decides it isn't fair to him and I am pretty sure he cannot afford to have his own apartment and cosign for one for me. He will also his support to control me and harass me about what foods I buy, etc, which he already does now.


It is very normal for men who are the ones who want to the separation/divorce to say that they don’t want to use lawyers for all the reasons that your husband says. Why do they say this? Because like you so astutely recognize, it keeps them in the position of control. And by keeping control, it means that they will not have to give you as much as the courts will give you.

After my son’s father said that he wanted a divorce, he told me all kinds of good things he wanted to do and of course he did not want to get attorneys involved. So, I went to the court and got all the forms for divorce and some sample divorces. Using that I drew up our divorce papers that did all the generous things that he said he was going to agree to. Except when the state guidelines meant that he would be giving me less than he was offering, I sued the lessor about. I also drew up a 50/50 custody and time-sharing plan with our son. We talked about and negotiated everything. All he had to do was sign it. The only cost for the divorce would have been about $120 in filing feels. Guess what? He refused to sign the divorce papers that he negotiated with me. The then said I was crazy if I thought that he was going to sign that.

So, I got an attorney. I gave the attorney the divorce papers I had drawn up and told her to start with that. He got his team of attorneys. He spent over $40K on attorneys. I spent a whole lot less. And the court gave me more than I was asking for. So, he wasted $40K fighting me.

My point of sharing that with you? I suggest you do the same thing. Stop telling him about your rights… (but do not move out of your apartment and/or away from your children). Get the court forms and some sample divorces (see links below) and you write down what he says he wants to do. Tell him that once the two of you have something that you both agree on, the two of you both can sign it file the divorce. Then once it says what he is offering, see if he agrees to sign it. My bet is that he will not agree. You do not sign that version of the divorce, papers. This is just you record what he claims he is offering. Keep the copy that records what he is claiming he is offering right now.

Then, you modify it with what covers your rights…. 

•	Assets: You two split assets 50/50. This includes 50% of any retirement and 401K that he has accumulated during our divorce. (there are special provisions for this)

•	Assets: separate – do either him or you have assets that you inherited or that either of you had prior to marriage? If you do, have they been mingled with money/assets earned after marriage. Let me know and we can talk about that.

•	Debt (non-student loan): Since you have no income right now, he gets all debt, except your student loans (if you have any). 

•	Debt-Student Loans: You keep the debt for any student loans you have. If he has student loans, those are also his separate debt and he keeps those.

•	Health insurance on you: Until the divorce is final he keeps you on his health insurance at work and he pays for it. After the divorce, if you cannot get on Medicaid, he pays for your health insurance until you graduate and get a job.

•	Health Insurance on your children: He is required to pay health insurance on your children. After you graduate and have a job, you two can decide whose employer provided health insurance is better for the children.
•	Auto – His auto: If you are on the loan, he has to refinance it to get your name off the loan and off the title.

•	Auto – Your auto: Until you graduate and have a job, he continues to pay it. And you both stay on the loan and title. Once you graduate and have a job, you refinance it or get a new car to get him off the loan and title.

•	Child support: He pays you child support according to what the state child support calculator says he has to pay. Here are some links to the Michigan child support calculator: 


o	https://micase.state.mi.us/calculatorapp/public/welcome/load.html 
o	Michigan Child Support Calculator
o	And this link is to the Michigan court Child Support Formula 

Child Support Formula​
•	Spousal support. He pays you temporary child support unit the divorce is final. After the divorce, he pays your rehabilitative spousal support for 3 years, or until you graduate and get a job. whichever happens first. (half the length of your marriage … the time during your divorce process counts towards length of marriage) Here is the link to the Michigan spousal support calculator: Spousal Support Calculator Michigan - divorce | Laws.com

•	You getting a place of your own: He will pay for the down payment and co-sign the lease so you can get a place big enough for both you and your children to live.

•	Child custody: You share child custody and time 50/50. You should be able to find a good sample custody and time-sharing agreement online. If not let me know and I’ll send you the one from my divorce as a sample.

•	Children’s college. That both of you are required to contribute to the college education of your children if they want to go to college… perhaps until age 24.

•	Life insurance: Both of you are required to carry life insurance of say about $200,000 to cover lost child support payment and cost of raising the children and their college should one of you die before the children reach the age of 24.

I’m sure if you do a lot of reading online, and in other sources, on divorce you can come up with more things to fine tune this.

Don’t worry about having the wording for all this perfect as a legal document. Once you have all of this written down it’s time to go to either a mediator or an attorney. If you want to try to save money, go to a mediator first and see if that works. You have the list of what each of you want and you know where you agree and do not agree. So you can tell the mediator what you agree on. And then can have the mediator help you negotiate what you two do not agree on. 

If the mediator does not work, get your own attorney. Also, if your husband does try to throw you out and not help you get a place to live where you can have your children at least 50% of the time, get an attorney ASAP and get the attorney to call an emergency court hearing to compel your husband to help you get a decent place to live if he wants you to move into your own place. If he refuses to get you see your children, get an emergency court hearing for that too.

You are going to have to get a mediator and/or attorney ASAP so that the child and spousal support issues are settled before you move out into a place of your own.

Whatever you do, do not do what your husband is suggesting because what he is suggesting leaves you completely at his mercy. If your husband threatens you that if you do it his way, he will fight you hard and make you spend a lot of money in the divorce, just tell him that if that’s how he wants to waste the money that should go to his children’s college education, then that’s his choice. And then walk away. Do not argue with him.

and see if the two of you can save money and mediate. If not go get an attorney. Sometimes you still have a lawyer even if you mediate because you want to make sure that whatever is agreed upon in mediation is fair to you. If you have a lawyer and you mediate, you just pay the attorney by the hour for one or two hours for them to review your agreement.

Here is a link to the Michigan court self-help center. They had a link to the michiganlegalhelp.org

http://courts.mi.gov/self-help/center/casetype/pages/default.aspx

So here is the link to the divorce on the michiganlegalhelp.org. They should have forms that you can down load to fill out.

https://michiganlegalhelp.org/self-help-tools/family



luxnoctis said:


> I have access to everything, where can I go for the cheapest copying service?


Is there a copy center at your school? Search on line for copy centers near you. Or go buy a scanner. I have a printer that as a built-in scanner… *HP OfficeJet 4650* it cost me about $74. The one thing that I don't like about the scanner on this printer is that it does not do duplex scanning.... I have to manually flip the pages to get it to copy both sides. There are other inexpensive printers that do have duplex scanning. You can check that out if you want to get your own printer/scanner.

I also have a * portable scanner*. Either might be a good thing for you to have for school anyway.



luxnoctis said:


> I know his social security number by heart but not our kids. Btw who keeps the hard copies of social security cards in divorce?


You should probably keep them. If it becomes an issue, it can be discussed with the mediator with attorneys. You can always give him photo copies of the documents. 

Do you, your husband or your children have passports?

If you can, get a copy of your husband’s social security card. You might not remember it forever and the need for it could come up years later. As I have said, my divorce from my son’s father was completed in 1995. Last year I needed his social security number when I retired. I used to know it by heart. I took me forever to find an old tax 1040 with his SS number… 22 years later. I’m surprised I still had the paper with the number on it.



luxnoctis said:


> I believe I am the primary caregiver since I have been at home with them, I set up their drs appts and take them, he never does. My older son also needs OT and speech therapy, and I was the only one who realized something wasn't right with his development while he and my mom said nothings wrong and he will suddenly develop, etc. So I was the one who asked for early-on services, then enrolled him in head start and asked his dr for referrals, got his eyesight checked and took him to get glasses. My husband had no part in any of that. We moved every year for his job so I have found new drs for everyone each year and honestly spent hours dealing with that. The first pediatrician visit with a new doctor always takes 3 hours, for each kid. He never appreciated how much work all of that was and still is. I don't know what will happen if he has full custody. He is terrible at managing appts and following drs and teachers recommendations.


Yea, it does sound like you will have no problem being the primary care giver. You might want to go for more than 50% custody. 

Sorry about talking about my divorce so much, but I think my experience will help you. AT least I hope so. When we divorce, I offered 50/50 custody. My ex fought for him having 100% custody, yet I was always the primary care giver. His argument was the he was a doctor and I was a lowly engineer so eh could do more for our son. And he told the court that I was crazy. My attorney suggested that I ask for a custody evaluation. The court asked that we both give the names of 3 custody evaluators and then the court would choose who did it. One of the ones I suggested was a local organization called “Fathers and Family”. They were very pro-father. But after talking to them I thought that they would be profoundly fair. They used a team approach--one female and one male evaluator. The court picked them. They did a very thorough evaluation. They had good and criticisms of both of us. But they said that my ex did not have a good relationship with our son. (my ex is a very angry man who yells, throws things, did a lot of pushing, and other physical stuff both me and our son). Well the evaluators picked up on that. In the end, they gave him about 30% custody and told the court that he had to do some counseling before he could get more time with our son. My son was also part of that counseling. I attended a few times. He ended up in counseling for 2 years before they gave him more time… he then got 40% custody. But they never felt that he could have any more than.

The evaluators also picked up on the fact that I was always the one who did everything for our son. His father had never taken him to a doctor, gone to his school to talk to his teachers, he even refused to go to school programs when our son sung in the school choir and was in school plays. He did not even know the name of our son’s friends. 

Moral of my story, if he fights you on custody, get a good custody evaluator. 



luxnoctis said:


> Also what does joint custody look like these days? I hated it when I was growing up. We had to switch homes every Friday at 5pm and my dad lived 30 mins from our school and had to drive us back and forth. He also remarried a horrible woman who treated us like slaves and made me live in terror. Her children bullied me every day and my dad did nothing about it. I would scream and beg my mom every other Friday to not have to go. I don't want my kids to feel torn between two homes like I did. My husband is better with our kids than my dad was, but I still don't know what joint custody will look like. I feel like he gets to enjoy playing with the kids, taking them to the beach and parks while I deal with all the annoying stuff like dr visits, therapy appts, meetings with the school, and ensuring the bills are paid for these services, etc.


Well that’s still what joint custody looks like. But your children need both parents. Hopefully neither of you will marry people who mistreat your children. But keep in mind that if things are bad, your children can request help. Your mother should have put you in counseling. Then the counselors would have dealt with the issues with the mean step mother and your father refusal to do anything about her and her bully kids. If the counselor thinks that there is abuse going on, they can report it to social services who would helpfully intervene.



luxnoctis said:


> How can you tell if an attorney is the kind who will drive up prices?


First find out what is reasonable to expect in your state. I’ve given you some links. You can do more searching and read up . You can even get books on amazon, etc. Learn as much as you can. Interview a few attorneys. If an attorney seems to talk about lot about them doing things like taking your ex to the cleaners, avoid that attorney. What some attorneys do is to set up their client to have unreasonable expectations. And these expectations will lead to a lot of drama and thus the attorney spending lots of billable hours on your case. If they say that they will get you 100% custody, or more than 50% of the assets… make crazy promises, that the other attorneys are not making… that’s a big clue.

Also, it has a lot to do with you managing your attorney. That’s why you need to have a good idea of what you want. That way if they start to get off the deep end, you tell them to stop wasting your money.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> This might be interesting for you to know. Why did she move out? Did he tell her to move so she just complied? Or did she move out because she had to get away from him for her own wellbeing? Did you children move with her?
> 
> Yea, it does sound like you will have no problem being the primary care giver. You might want to go for more than 50% custody.
> 
> Moral of my story, if he fights you on custody, get a good custody evaluator.


Thanks for all the info. The stories help a lot too. I didn't realize it was so common for men to say these things to their wives during divorce. 

I don't know why she moved out. He probably told her it was his house. She did tell me that he was controlling and isolated her from everyone and emotionally abusive. We didn't live with her right away. I was young so I don't remember how long it was until we were living half-half. Maybe 6 months? My dad remarried very quickly (he hates being alone) and put our house on the market. We still had to stay in the house in the mornings for the school bus even as he was emptying it out and turning off utilities. I wish my mom could have gotten the house instead of him selling it. He used the money from the house sale with his new wife's money from selling her huge house and land to buy another home for them and her horses. 

How do I pay a retainer to a lawyer right now? I will go to different ones for free consultation after I do what you said with writing what I want (is that part just on a word doc too? or the michiganlegalhelp forms? both?)

Also about the custody. I'm really scared because I have slapped my husband 2 times and thrown things a few times at the wall before I was diagnosed with BPD and once afterwards when they changed my medication. Like you said we feed into each other, and despite my mom and his own mom telling him during some of our fights that he needs to just stop talking and walk away if I'm that upset, he never does. I've had several bad panic attacks because after shouting at him, then crying hysterically, he still wouldn't stop. He has a quiet, repressed anger and never yelled at me, he would use very personal information I had told him in confidence when we were getting on, to attack me. 

I'm afraid the custody evaluators won't know that part about him and just hear how I got aggressive and hysterical in fights with him and slapped him. He never says he did anything wrong or was fighting, just me being crazy towards him. I'm afraid if they hear that and have their own ideas about BPD and medication they will be inclined to give him more or full custody.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Apply for a credit card if you have to, and pay off the lawyer debt over the next few years.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

I also want to ask, if I need to stay with my kids right now what do I do about his wanting to sign a new lease without me (at a different apt) Does he have to let me sign the lease too? Does he have to keep paying for the apt we are in right now month-to-month. Apts here are expensive and 2 together with month-to-month fees are half his monthly income.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

turnera said:


> Apply for a credit card if you have to, and pay off the lawyer debt over the next few years.


I have one credit card with $10,000 limit which thank God I didn't close as my husband wanted. I told him I may need that much money if things get worse between us and I just refused to close a possible lifeline for myself. 

How much is a retainer? When my mom divorced about 20 years ago she told me she racked up $5,000 for the custody battle.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

Do you have access to the bank account where his check is deposited? Have your lawyer handle that first. He cannot withhold the 'family' money and right now, it's at least half yours, if not more. Go to the school counselor; she should be able to get you in touch with lawyers. 

From what I've heard, retainers are usually $3000-$6000.

Call the credit card company and make sure you're still 'open.' If you haven't used it in a long time, sometimes they cancel the account.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

turnera said:


> Do you have access to the bank account where his check is deposited? Have your lawyer handle that first. He cannot withhold the 'family' money and right now, it's at least half yours, if not more. Go to the school counselor; she should be able to get you in touch with lawyers.
> 
> From what I've heard, retainers are usually $3000-$6000.
> 
> Call the credit card company and make sure you're still 'open.' If you haven't used it in a long time, sometimes they cancel the account.


Yes I have access, but it's not joint. He made a new account just for him because its "his money" but I demanded the access info. I also have a credit card to that account although its pretty full.

Is the retainer applied to a certain amount of work they do or just a fee and then you have to pay for their billable hours?


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

A retainer is like a savings account that you draw from as you need it. Each bill the lawyer gives you will be paid out of that retainer, until it's empty. If he doesn't spend that much, you'll just have that left over. If he costs more than that, he'll probably bill you for the rest.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

turnera said:


> Apply for a credit card if you have to, and pay off the lawyer debt over the next few years.


This is a good idea. Just be very careful to not just blow money on it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> I also want to ask, if I need to stay with my kids right now what do I do about his wanting to sign a new lease without me (at a different apt) Does he have to let me sign the lease too? Does he have to keep paying for the apt we are in right now month-to-month. Apts here are expensive and 2 together with month-to-month fees are half his monthly income.


This is why you need to see an attorney right now, like next week if at all possible. Even if you had a mediator handle a lot of the divorce, you need an attorney for this. You go get the best attorney in town and tell them that you husband has told you that he is moving, getting a new apartment and told you that he is having the children live with him and you cannot live with them.

This attorney needs to get an emergency court hearing to set the temporary child support and spousal support so that you can afford a place for you and your children. As well as, in the hearing, he needs to be ordered to pay for any expenses you have in this move.

He simply cannot move himself and the children leaving you on the street. Not if you exercise your legal rights and his wife and the mother of his children. And an attorney is the one who can help you do that.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> Thanks for all the info. The stories help a lot too. I didn't realize it was so common for men to say these things to their wives during divorce.


Yep… it is. They say it to keep the woman from getting a lawyer and protecting her rights. And often, by the time she wakes up to reality of what he’s up to, she has lost her opportunity to get a lawyer and get a more equitable settlement.


luxnoctis said:


> I don't know why she moved out. He probably told her it was his house. She did tell me that he was controlling and isolated her from everyone and emotionally abusive. We didn't live with her right away. I was young so I don't remember how long it was until we were living half-half. Maybe 6 months? My dad remarried very quickly (he hates being alone) and put our house on the market. We still had to stay in the house in the mornings for the school bus even as he was emptying it out and turning off utilities. I wish my mom could have gotten the house instead of him selling it. He used the money from the house sale with his new wife's money from selling her huge house and land to buy another home for them and her horses.


It sounds like your mother moved out to get away from him. That might have been her choice, and it’s not a bad choice. But if he kept the children for several months, then he might have pulled some pretty ugly stuff and she did not know how to fight it. But I, of course, have no idea.



luxnoctis said:


> How do I pay a retainer to a lawyer right now? I will go to different ones for free consultation after I do what you said with writing what I want (is that part just on a word doc too? or the michiganlegalhelp forms? both?)


You have an emergency with him wanting you to move out and leave your children. I think that you can use a word file and just list what you want and what your concerns are. Keep in mind that few people go to an attorney for divorce that prepared. You can really keep your costs down by being prepared and listing right up front for the lawyer what your issues are and what you think is a fair settlement. The lawyer would of course tell you of anything they think needs to be changed.
As for the forums on michiganlegalhelp. After looking at the site, it’s a bit hard to figure out. The court self-help site here in New Mexico is so much easier to use. So I’m going to show you two forums that I think would very helpful for you bring to the first meeting with the attorney that you hire. You can look at the NM forums and see if you can find the equivalent forms on michiganlegalhelp. Otherwise you could just use the NM form format because your attorney needs this info before he/she can file for things like interim support. (If you use the NM format, you would of course leave off the all the text about State of NM, etc. Your attorney will need to know you and your husband’s income, expenses, assets, debts, etc in order to go for that emergency hearing. I had all this info for my attorney at the first appointment with her. She was able to file the divorce the next day and to get an emergency court hearing in 24 hours because I have her everything she needed at that first meeting.

*MONTHLY INCOME AND EXPENSES STATEMENT *

*PROPERTY AND DEBTS SCHEDULE*


*SEPARATE PROPERTY AND DEBTS SCHEDULE*

*NM divorce forms*… for interest only 



luxnoctis said:


> Also about the custody. I'm really scared because I have slapped my husband 2 times and thrown things a few times at the wall before I was diagnosed with BPD and once afterwards when they changed my medication. Like you said we feed into each other, and despite my mom and his own mom telling him during some of our fights that he needs to just stop talking and walk away if I'm that upset, he never does. I've had several bad panic attacks because after shouting at him, then crying hysterically, he still wouldn't stop. He has a quiet, repressed anger and never yelled at me, he would use very personal information I had told him in confidence when we were getting on, to attack me.


You slapping him and throwing things is not cool. Did he call the police?

You stopped doing that sort of thing, right? You have gotten help to manage your bipolar and you have changed your behavior, right? 

Up to now your husband has not called the police so there is no proof that you did anything. He has been ok with you being the primary care taker of your children up to now. So he cannot not say that all the sudden, when he wants to be single again, you should not have at least 50% custody.



luxnoctis said:


> I'm afraid the custody evaluators won't know that part about him and just hear how I got aggressive and hysterical in fights with him and slapped him. He never says he did anything wrong or was fighting, just me being crazy towards him. I'm afraid if they hear that and have their own ideas about BPD and medication they will be inclined to give him more or full custody.


Good custody evaluators will figure it out. You need to tell them and be truthful. They will talk with the two of you many times.

You can talk to your attorney about all this. And talk to your therapist. They can help you. Also remember that the custody evaluators are not looking take the children away from one of you. They are looking at how to make shared custody work because your children need both of you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

turnera said:


> A retainer is like a savings account that you draw from as you need it. Each bill the lawyer gives you will be paid out of that retainer, until it's empty. If he doesn't spend that much, you'll just have that left over. If he costs more than that, he'll probably bill you for the rest.


And, since your husband is the one with the income and most of the money, you ask your attorney to petition the court to have your husband pay your legal fees.

So even if you give a retainer, any additional cost would be paid by your husband.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> And, since your husband is the one with the income and most of the money, you ask your attorney to petition the court to have your husband pay your legal fees.
> 
> So even if you give a retainer, any additional cost would be paid by your husband.


Thanks for all the help. Yes I stopped after being medicated except when they changed my meds once and I failed to acknowledge manic symptoms (sleeping 4 hours a night, more confrontational, etc) No he never called the police. He has tried to record some of our arguments, but nothing really out of the ordinary for an argument.

The first time I slapped him was when I was suicidal and paranoid. The second time was after I came home from being in the hospital on dilaudid for pancreatitis (i didn't know i had bipolar disorder at the time) The sudden withdrawal of the dilaudid caused a nasty affect on me. He has a habit of kicking me when I'm down and used that time to start a fight with me. 

These things are all the reasons I realized I needed to see a pyschiatrist because I was unable to control my behavior.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> Thanks for all the help. Yes I stopped after being medicated except when they changed my meds once and I failed to acknowledge manic symptoms (sleeping 4 hours a night, more confrontational, etc) No he never called the police. He has tried to record some of our arguments, but nothing really out of the ordinary for an argument.


Do you know that it is against the law in Michigan for him to record you without our consent? Your state required that all parties being recorded must consent to the recording. So such a recording could not be used in court anyway.

I was going to suggest that you record him going at you when the two of you are having arguments or angry discussions. Just sit there and don't say a word and record him going on being mean and abusive to you. So I looked up the recording laws in your state. Here is a link for that.

http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/michigan-recording-law

The only caveated I know about the recording laws is that I think that all states make an acceptation if a person records a crime being committed without the consent of all parties. You can ask your attorney about this if you want.



luxnoctis said:


> The first time I slapped him was when I was suicidal and paranoid. The second time was after I came home from being in the hospital on dilaudid for pancreatitis (i didn't know i had bipolar disorder at the time) The sudden withdrawal of the dilaudid caused a nasty affect on me. He has a habit of kicking me when I'm down and used that time to start a fight with me.


Ok, so you are extenuating circumstances. But now that you know that you do this, it's incumbent on you to make sure you don't do it again.



luxnoctis said:


> These things are all the reasons I realized I needed to see a pyschiatrist because I was unable to control my behavior.


Good for you. That's the right way to handle it.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

Your husband is being an ass. What he is telling you, is complete bullcrap. 
You are being played.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

TaDor said:


> Your husband is being an ass. What he is telling you, is complete bullcrap.
> You are being played.


It's so hard for me to accept that a person could do that to someone else. Especially because I don't believe he is consciously doing it; I think he just reacts from subconscious reasons. But after I mentioned to him that I won't be leaving the place where my children live until I have a place where they and I can live, he has been nicer to me. I don't know if that's to manipulate me, or because he knows we have to live together longer and wants to keep the peace. He's back to making jokes, being flirty, and talking about things like everything is normal and we aren't separating, while we both know he wants to separate. 

It makes it difficult for me to accept the separation when he talks to me and behaves like he has throughout our marriage. I told him that and he asked how should he be behaving, cold? not talking to me? I didn't know what to say.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Ok, so you are extenuating circumstances. But now that you know that you do this, it's incumbent on you to make sure you don't do it again.


Yes I know about that law, but I didn't know if it could still be used in child custody evaluations or be taken into consideration. But like I said, he hasn't really captured anything bad on his phone; he is usually too caught up in arguing to think logically like that. 

I have thought about recording him, because my in-laws don't believe he actually says these things to me and basically see a separation as my failure for not preventing it. I never have recorded him because it just feels childish and petty to me. 

I talked to my psychiatrist about the relapse I had in throwing something towards my husband and feel extra aggressive and defensive of myself so he gave me an additional sedative to use if I get too riled up and heading for a panic attack. He also adjusted the timing of my mood stabilizer so it will better counteract the anti-depression medications (which cause mania if not checked by other medicines). I feel much better after his adjustments.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> Yes I know about that law, but I didn't know if it could still be used in child custody evaluations or be taken into consideration. But like I said, he hasn't really captured anything bad on his phone; he is usually too caught up in arguing to think logically like that.


I understand your concern. Since he has nothing to prove any of it, he has nothing to use against you. If it comes up, just talk to your lawyer about it and get the lawyer's help. 



luxnoctis said:


> I have thought about recording him, because my in-laws don't believe he actually says these things to me and basically see a separation as my failure for not preventing it. I never have recorded him because it just feels childish and petty to me.


Now, recoding him for this reason makes sense. I think you should do it. the only thing is that if you do record him, you need to make sure that if you say anything it is as calm as possible and all you do is ask him to please quit it and leave you alone. You could get several recordings over a week or two. Copy the recordings somewhere so he cannot get to it. Then play them for your in-laws. You can also play them for your therapist.



luxnoctis said:


> I talked to my psychiatrist about the relapse I had in throwing something towards my husband and feel extra aggressive and defensive of myself so he gave me an additional sedative to use if I get too riled up and heading for a panic attack. He also adjusted the timing of my mood stabilizer so it will better counteract the anti-depression medications (which cause mania if not checked by other medicines). I feel much better after his adjustments.


Good!


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> It's so hard for me to accept that a person could do that to someone else. Especially because I don't believe he is consciously doing it; I think he just reacts from subconscious reasons. But after I mentioned to him that I won't be leaving the place where my children live until I have a place where they and I can live, he has been nicer to me. I don't know if that's to manipulate me, or because he knows we have to live together longer and wants to keep the peace. He's back to making jokes, being flirty, and talking about things like everything is normal and we aren't separating, while we both know he wants to separate.


He is probably doing some things consciously and some are unconscious things that he learned growing up that work to manipulate people. 

The purpose of abuse is to control the other person. Growing up, he must of learned a pattern of behaviors that are abusive that he has learned will keep you off balance so he has control over you and the situation. He verbally beats you down. This keeps you feeling unsure about yourself and things in your life. That keeps him in control.



luxnoctis said:


> It makes it difficult for me to accept the separation when he talks to me and behaves like he has throughout our marriage. I told him that and he asked how should he be behaving, cold? not talking to me? I didn't know what to say.


It's a manipulation that is meant to get you to trust him. Sooner or later he will go into the abusive stage again.

Have you ever heard of the cycle of abuse?

The Abusive Cycle ? Out of the FOG


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

I just can't believe it qualifies as abuse. It's hard to accept.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

luxnoctis said:


> It's so hard for me to accept that a person could do that to someone else. Especially because I don't believe he is consciously doing it; I think he just reacts from subconscious reasons.


Have you started reading Why Does He Do That? yet? They don't know they're 'doing' something. They are just doing what they think gets them what they wants.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

luxnoctis said:


> I just can't believe it qualifies as abuse. It's hard to accept.


Far more women are mentally abused than physically abused. Have you read any of the material we've given you? It's a wide spectrum of actions that could be taken, they don't have to do all of them. In fact, they will only do the things that 'work' on YOU. If you're insecure about your looks, he will never compliment you. If you are insecure about money and security, he won't give you access to the money - you'll forever be beholden to him to have access to it. All steps taken to keep you on your toes, always searching for the right things to say or do or for the things NOT to do, so that the 'goal post' (what it takes for you to be happy and secure) is constantly changing: no matter what you do, there will always be something else you're doing wrong. Whatever it takes to make you constantly seeking HIS approval or happiness.


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## JohnA (Jun 24, 2015)

I suspect your husband married you because you where bi-polar. He sought to control the outbursts he did not want but keep the weaknesses he wanted to maintain a sense of control. Your mother simply does not believe in you. 

Listen to your doctor. Listen to the voices of experience hear and believe. 

Also why a big 4 firm? I know a woman started at a two man (genders where male) working part time as a bookkeeper junior year of a four year degree, not a masters. What, 40 years later still with the same firm and she has a CPA, also managing partner that has grown to 20 plus CPA and owns the office building they are in. Her and her husbands house damn close to 7 figures. Her husband is also an engineer, but hasn't earn as much as her in thirty years or so. Oh, I got her the job to start. Told them to sign an upcoming super star on the cheap. She was a perfect fit for them on every level. Be a damn shame if I had to recommend her to xxxx.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

luxnoctis said:


> It's so hard for me to accept that a person could do that to someone else. Especially because I don't believe he is consciously doing it; I think he just reacts from subconscious reasons. But after I mentioned to him that I won't be leaving the place where my children live until I have a place where they and I can live, he has been nicer to me. I don't know if that's to manipulate me, or because he knows we have to live together longer and wants to keep the peace. He's back to making jokes, being flirty, and talking about things like everything is normal and we aren't separating, while we both know he wants to separate.
> 
> It makes it difficult for me to accept the separation when he talks to me and behaves like he has throughout our marriage. I told him that and he asked how should he be behaving, cold? not talking to me? I didn't know what to say.


Look at how many husbands have killed their wives and children. (Women have also killed their husbands and kids - rare) - Not saying HE would do that. But that you should get it in your head that a PERSON can and DO hurt other people. It doesn't matter if its subconscious, you told him about it. For him to change suddenly, just points to manipulaion. Keeping the peace until he gets what he wants, which is GETTING AWAY FROM YOU.

So stop lying to yourself... look at your own words "we both know he wants to separate". So do it ASAP (with your kids) and then file for DIVORCE.

Your husband may be a Your husband may be a narcissist or a sociopath. He’s had years to learn what makes you tick and is playing with your mind.

If what you say is true about his actions and his words. Then yeah, you are being manipulated, abused and disrespected. 

BTW: I am a man. My wife cheated on me and did mental crap to me – typical of someone who is cheating. The likelihood of your husband cheating or wanting to cheat on you is upwards of 100% or higher. In no way is a separation type that you two are talking about have anything to do with making things better.

So find a place for you and your kids that works. Then start on the divorce.

Look up doing “180” is help you heal and improve your self to deal with the upcoming divorce.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

JohnA said:


> I suspect your husband married you because you where bi-polar. He sought to control the outbursts he did not want but keep the weaknesses he wanted to maintain a sense of control. Your mother simply does not believe in you.
> 
> Listen to your doctor. Listen to the voices of experience hear and believe.
> 
> Also why a big 4 firm?


I think you are right. I saw signs of manipulation at the start but he was also very naive, so I wrote it off in favor of all of his good qualities. My self-esteem did build up quite a lot after I met him and lived with his family for some time because they were very liberal with compliments unlike my original family. But now the bad is too much.

It doesn't have to be a big 4, just saying they pay more.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

TaDor said:


> Look at how many husbands have killed their wives and children. (Women have also killed their husbands and kids - rare) - Not saying HE would do that. But that you should get it in your head that a PERSON can and DO hurt other people. It doesn't matter if its subconscious, you told him about it. Fo
> 
> So stop lying to yourself... look at your own words "we both know he wants to separate". So do it ASAP (with your kids) and then file for DIVORCE.
> 
> ...


I know he wants to have the freedom to look for someone else but that's not the same as wanting to cheat. He wants to get rid of me so that he wouldn't be in that position. I asked him directly if he was separating with a hope of making things better or not, because he was being very ambiguous about it and I suspected he was not planning to get back together. He finally admitted that he doesn't want to be married to me (or anyone, says he). I've known for some time he is manipulative. Since treatment my eyes opened to the fact that he disrespects me; obviously he manipulated me to keep thinking I was the one disrespecting him. But saying I was abused, he abused me feels weird. I definitely abused him too. When I hear abuse I just think of abuser and victim, meaning the victim has not also abused the abuser. I feel like it sounds misleading, like I'm innocent.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

That's why you need to read up about it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> I know he wants to have the freedom to look for someone else but that's not the same as wanting to cheat. He wants to get rid of me so that he wouldn't be in that position. I asked him directly if he was separating with a hope of making things better or not, because he was being very ambiguous about it and I suspected he was not planning to get back together. He finally admitted that he doesn't want to be married to me (or anyone, says he). I've known for some time he is manipulative. Since treatment my eyes opened to the fact that he disrespects me; obviously he manipulated me to keep thinking I was the one disrespecting him. But saying I was abused, he abused me feels weird. I definitely abused him too. When I hear abuse I just think of abuser and victim, meaning the victim has not also abused the abuser. I feel like it sounds misleading, like I'm innocent.


Sometimes there is a clear abuser/victim relationship where one person is clearly being abused and the other is clearly being victimized.

Other times both mistreat the other to some degree. We here on TAM can only go by what you are telling us. You have admitted to some abusive things that you have done. And, what you describe of his behavior is seriously emotionally/verbally abusive. 

While physical abuse leaves burses and scars, emotional/verbal abuse leave scars that cannot be seen.

Serious emotional abuse can lead the victim to end up having serious depression, anxiety and other mental health disorders. It can even trigger the onset of things like bi-polar disorder and other very serious mental health issues.

My take on your situation is that you have acknowledged your wrong behavior and are addressing it. He has not so his continues.

Often times when two people form a relationship, it's because their mental "illnesses" fit together. Your lack of self esteem and bi-polar fit with his abusive control issues. Now that you are making positive changes and growing your emotional intelligence and taking care of your mental health.... you no longer fit like a glove with his need to control you via emotional abuse. This is most likely a large part of why he wants out of the marriage now.

Be careful because when a person who has a great need to control others and uses emotional abuse to get that control... when they start to lose the control over their partner as is happening in your marriage, the abuser often crosses over to start using physical violence. He may never do that. Just know that it's a possibility.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> Sometimes there is a clear abuser/victim relationship where one person is clearly being abused and the other is clearly being victimized.
> 
> Other times both mistreat the other to some degree. We here on TAM can only go by what you are telling us. You have admitted to some abusive things that you have done. And, what you describe of his behavior is seriously emotionally/verbally abusive.
> 
> ...


I have read books about these things but you know the examples can't always be similar to the reader's situation. I just couldn't see that my situation was in the category I read about. My therapist said something similar to me, that i'm growing and he seems to not be growing with me. That's why she told me to get ready for a future without him for my own best interests. 

He is not that controlling. He does controlling behavior but not in the way that he would be angered by losing control of me. He also has zero capability for violence.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> I have read books about these things but you know the examples can't always be similar to the reader's situation. I just couldn't see that my situation was in the category I read about. My therapist said something similar to me, that i'm growing and he seems to not be growing with me. That's why she told me to get ready for a future without him for my own best interests.
> 
> He is not that controlling. He does controlling behavior but not in the way that he would be angered by losing control of me. He also has zero capability for violence.


I hope you are right that he has zero capability for violence.

I dated by son's father for 5 years before we married. We lived together most of that time. We almost never had any fights. He never did any kind of physical violence. About 2 years after we married his horrible anger started. And then 4 years after we married the violence started. Before that I too would have said that he has zero capability for violence when we dated and when we were first married. I found out differently.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

EleGirl said:


> I hope you are right that he has zero capability for violence.
> 
> I dated by son's father for 5 years before we married. We lived together most of that time. We almost never had any fights. He never did any kind of physical violence. About 2 years after we married his horrible anger started. And then 4 years after we married the violence started. Before that I too would have said that he has zero capability for violence when we dated and when we were first married. I found out differently.


See we have had many fights throughout the marriage to both of our breaking points. If there was a time to snap it would have already occurred.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

luxnoctis said:


> See we have had many fights throughout the marriage to both of our breaking points. If there was a time to snap it would have already occurred.


I hope you are right.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

"I know he wants to have the freedom to look for someone else but that's not the same as wanting to cheat."

If you want to stay in the marriage and you do not like the idea of him having sex with other women... its cheating. Past, present or future.

Otherwise... divorce him and get it over with.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

TaDor said:


> "I know he wants to have the freedom to look for someone else but that's not the same as wanting to cheat."
> 
> If you want to stay in the marriage and you do not like the idea of him having sex with other women... its cheating. Past, present or future.
> 
> Otherwise... divorce him and get it over with.


I really disagree with that. Divorce doesn't happen instantly and wanting to date in the future is not cheating.


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

He doesn't "want a divorce" but wants her to move out. Talks about wanting to date other women while he figures himself out to "save the marriage". 
Unless she consents to him dating and banging out women, HE IS CHEATING / planning on CHEATING.


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

TaDor said:


> He doesn't "want a divorce" but wants her to move out. Talks about wanting to date other women while he figures himself out to "save the marriage".
> Unless she consents to him dating and banging out women, HE IS CHEATING / planning on CHEATING.


He does not want to date to figure himself out and save the marriage.


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## Broken_in_Brooklyn (Feb 21, 2013)

luxnoctis, you mentioned this in another post : "I was severely depressed at one point in my marriage, very suicidal and cutting myself. I felt unloved and had and emotional affair online, but as soon as he wanted to add sexual things into the mix I felt disgusted and cut off all communication. I didn't tell my husband, although he joked that I was talking to my "boyfriend," "

Do you think your husbands current behavior has been influenced by you conversing in the past with what he jokingly(?) called your "boyfriend"? I ask because all jokes aside it sounds like it could have been sarcasm. The fact that he witnessed it, has he brought it up? Could this be something simmering in his head?


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## luxnoctis (Jun 29, 2017)

Broken_in_Brooklyn said:


> luxnoctis, you mentioned this in another post : "I was severely depressed at one point in my marriage, very suicidal and cutting myself. I felt unloved and had and emotional affair online, but as soon as he wanted to add sexual things into the mix I felt disgusted and cut off all communication. I didn't tell my husband, although he joked that I was talking to my "boyfriend," "
> 
> Do you think your husbands current behavior has been influenced by you conversing in the past with what he jokingly(?) called your "boyfriend"? I ask because all jokes aside it sounds like it could have been sarcasm. The fact that he witnessed it, has he brought it up? Could this be something simmering in his head?


No he was not being sarcastic. At that time he was trying make friends with his female co-workers through facebook. We had agreed from the start of our marriage not to have opposite sex friends, but I got so angry at him mainly because of depression and paranoia. After that he told me I'm free to talk to any guy I want and he said he knows I would never do something wrong with another guy. I know on here, these are called emotional affairs but my stbx doesn't think anything about it.


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## just got it 55 (Mar 2, 2013)

luxnoctis said:


> How can he be forced to pay for me? I chose to be a stay at home mom and then a full time student. He was always against me being at home instead of working and putting the kids in daycare. Its my fault that I didnt work to save money up to be independent.


I am Late to this thread and I bet you heard this already

Its really simple Speak to a family law expert

55


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## TaDor (Dec 20, 2015)

luxnoctis said:


> I really disagree with that. Divorce doesn't happen instantly and wanting to date in the future is not cheating.


That is true... as long as its clear that you both are divorcing and seperation is part of the process. My statements were based on your earliest post when you talked about "love him" confused, wanting to stay together, and him saying conflicting statements.

Here is what you said on the earlier posts you made (in order):


> 1 - He wants to separate and prove to himself that he will be fine unmarried. He is not separating to take time apart or see how he still feels about me.


One of the first few posts from you. That idea is crazy... It says to me "I don't care what you fell, I want to see how well I do without you. If it sucks, I'll come back to you and the kids".



> 2 – He may want the freedom to have an opportunity to pursue a romantic interest if he finds one. But he thinks marriage and relationships are too painful to deal with so I don't think thats his motivation.


If you are separated with the plan to divorce - then yes, he will be getting his tool wet. He's a young guy. Don’t confuse romance with sex, they are not one of the same. His manipulation which you admitted about him – means you DON’T know his actual motivations. Unless he is mentally unstable – he is quite aware of his actions and his goals. Even at 40 – life was easier for me as a single man. I go out when I want to, any day of the week. I want to drink, meet chicks, get laid, hang out with friends, come home at 6am, etc. I answered to NOBODY. I had my simple apartment and single car. Met a gal I really liked, got married – had a kid. I cannot simply GO OUT for a drink (the bars are open right this moment). Wife is asleep, our toddler is awake – I have family related things to do the next day. I have to coordinate with my wife on things – we DON’T go out clubbing or other fun adult things as much as we used to. I’m quite a bit older, I’d only like to party a little bit… I am too old and have too many responsibilities to simply do what I want when I want. This is why I tell teens and people in their early 20s to NOT get married and have kids. Wait until they are 30, or at least – 25+ years old. Get those party / school / stupidity / experience days out of the way. He wants out… let him go.



> 3 - He agreed to take my stuff there and I'm hoping I can convince him to let me stay until sept when hopefully I will get on campus housing.


This is one of your later posts. My thoughts is that you still want to save he marriage and he is still talking to you like a friend. Him NOT helping you with a place to stay = GO AWAY. I don’t want you. You’re cramping his style.

Hmmm… maybe he’s actually a homosexual and wants his privacy? Happens.



> 4 - I know he wants to have the freedom to look for someone else but that's not the same as wanting to cheat. He wants to get rid of me so that he wouldn't be in that position. I asked him directly if he was separating with a hope of making things better or not, because he was being very ambiguous about it and I suspected he was not planning to get back together. He finally admitted that he doesn't want to be married to me


This is where it got confusing. But in the end – kind of clear things up at this point. As stated, if you want to save the marriage –dating others is NOT the way to go about it. But his admission of not wanting to be married to you means… get a divorce. Best if you file first. If its 100% clear that you and he are going separate ways – then you are right. So give yourself a break… get laid. I mean it. Make it known to family & friends (even on FB) that you guys are separated and will be divorcing, (and that you wish things would have worked out)

The within a few days… Find a handsome guy, talk to him – let him know you are just broken up and not looking for long-term, but likely only a few times in the sack. Find lawyer to start the divorce process. And let your STBX that he was right – Not being with him has already allowed you to find bigger and better men for you to have fun with.



> 5 - Did anyone ever have a partner do this (separation) and then come back ?


Most do not. The main function of a SEPARATION is to prepare for divorce. To create distance and disconnection from each other. Those kind of statements is what made it tricky to track what you want.

You refer to him as STBX… but ask if you two will get back together. It seems like you are confused.

You need to read books on narcissist:
1 – “Stop caretaking the borderline or narcissist : How to end the drama~” by Fjelstad 
2 – “The human Magnet Syndrome: Why we love people who hurt us” by Rosenberg

Look forward… continue your education for yourself and your kids. Your STBX is not going to be reliable, if ever. There are better men out there.


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