# Is it natural to stay faithful?



## LiamNeeson (Nov 30, 2012)

Sometimes staying faithful to a woman is hard because of urges. How do you overcome these? I don't know if I want to not have these urges, they are so powerful. Is the old Indian saying true about the two wolves, and the one you feed winning?

It's pretty obvious that infidelity is a bane to society at-large and at home. It creates the potential for conflict. Yet isn't that what life is about, conflict... coming together and breaking apart? So is it that we are supposed to follow our natural instincts or is it better to follow the rules of society?

In many cases the ones being hurt by infidelity are commiting it themselves to some extent, because it's in their nature. Society is simply seeking to cover the hurt up. So... how does one become an ubermensch and overcomes these urges and forego the whole moral dilemma?


----------



## ManUp (Nov 25, 2012)

Stay faithful. That completely avoids any moral dilemma. Then again, if you prefer a scorched earth policy of relationships leaving broken hearts and crushed souls along the wayside and constantly living in a state of ridiculous drama and conflict, well, I suppose that's your choice.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## waiwera (Sep 8, 2009)

I think the fact that we 'share' our lovers so badly and with so much hurt and angst proves we're designed to be monogamous.

I've read several times humans are one of a selective few beings that 'pair bond'.

Temptation is everywhere... for some it's that hottie down the road, for some it's chocolate cake, for some it's alcohol or shopping... etc...

We all have to fight that temptation or we'd all be fat drunks shagging everyone in sight... heck...that might sound ok to some!

Seriously though... anytime I might be tempted to stray all I would need to do is spend 5 mins on the 'Coping With Infideliy'' boards to remember how much I have to lose and how much it would hurt my H.


----------



## Weathered (Dec 15, 2009)

It's definitely a conscious decision. For some it's easier to do, and others struggle with or succumb to temptation.

It's as natural as doing the 'right' thing (however way this is defined).
Absolutely worth the effort being faithful though.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

So much in this life has a yin and a yang… two opposing forces.
I think that monogamy and the urge to hook up with others are both natural forces.

Monogamy is such a force that our body actually creates chemicals that cause us to feel bonded to another person. We have strong urges to from a family unit. 
We, male and female, also have strong urges to reach out to others. However, when we do this and have sex with them… our body makes those chemicals and starts the bonding process.
It’s two sides of the same coin.
Human society and individuals do better with strong family units.
‘
But in times of war, epidemics, etc. when many people die… those who are left without a partner can quickly reform new family units.

So both sides of this are needed. But they can cause conflicts. 

You have to decide what’s more important to you… jumping in bed with whoever you fancy at the moment (if he/she will do it) or building a strong family/relationship.

If that urge is more important.. then don’t marry use/harm your wife. It’s really that simple.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Please explain a little more about these "urges". I don't ever remember having "urges" that I could not control around other women. Maybe I have memory problems. Okay, I'll admit it. I just do not remember having these problems at all. They were never so strong I could not keep my hands or anything else to myself. 

I know this probably seems like a smart a** comment, but I really want to understand this, "I can't live without some other woman than my wife" feeling. I just don't get it. Even when I was in my twenties, I could keep my hands to myself. Believe me, I was quite the horn dog then.

Sorry, not natural for me. Don't know why. Just never wanted to sleep with lots of women. Maybe I could find a reason if I really thought about it for a while. I just can't find one now.


----------



## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

Staying faithful isn't natural, but it's very natural for cheaters to end up sad, pathetic, alone and impoverished. The "benefits" of cheating aren't worth the risks. While the consequences are never pleasant, in my case, they also include the certainty that I'd be maimed or murdered by my wife. I've seen hundreds of bloody crime scenes. I'm not anxious to be one. Besides, there are only two types of sexual organs. You could sleep around with 10,000 men but none will have equipment vastly different than the one you've got at home.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> *Staying faithful isn't natural*, *but it's very natural for cheaters to end up sad, pathetic, alone and impoverished.* The "benefits" of cheating aren't worth the risks. While the consequences are never pleasant, in my case, they also include the certainty that I'd be maimed or murdered by my wife. I've seen hundreds of bloody crime scenes. I'm not anxious to be one. Besides, there are only two types of sexual organs. You could sleep around with 10,000 men but none will have equipment vastly different than the one you've got at home.


See, I just don't get this and I am the one who is impoverished and all that other stuff. I did not cheat, ever.


----------



## ScaredandUnsure (Nov 17, 2011)

I think if lower life forms can remain monogamous, then it shouldn't really be hard for human beings to be monogamous. If you can't, then don't get into relationships, it's really that simple.


----------



## LiamNeeson (Nov 30, 2012)

unbelievable said:


> Staying faithful isn't natural, but it's very natural for cheaters to end up sad, pathetic, alone and impoverished. The "benefits" of cheating aren't worth the risks. While the consequences are never pleasant, in my case, they also include the certainty that I'd be maimed or murdered by my wife. I've seen hundreds of bloody crime scenes. I'm not anxious to be one. Besides, there are only two types of sexual organs. You could sleep around with 10,000 men but none will have equipment vastly different than the one you've got at home.


I can tell you've thought on it longer than I have, with far greater consequences. It's always been haunting me but I have yet to have it to truly wreck havoc. I'm leaning against it so it's hard to say if it will happen to me.

Anyway as to the urges I thought every guy would just understand what I meant: All of a sudden you're excited about sex, you feel on top of the world, you want to meet women and you feel like an Alpha. Some then will watch porn or go to their female, others will cheat. I'm just acknowledging how powerful that urge is.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I always went to my wife when I felt on top of the world. No problem for me. I wanted to share my good feelings with the one I love. It was when I felt the most satisfaction from the high of being on top of the world and I would sometimes let that high run over and buy her gifts.

I always thought, why waste that good on someone else. Give all of that good to my loving wife. She deserves it.


----------



## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

LiamNeeson said:


> I can tell you've thought on it longer than I have, with far greater consequences. It's always been haunting me but I have yet to have it to truly wreck havoc. I'm leaning against it so it's hard to say if it will happen to me.
> 
> Anyway as to the urges I thought every guy would just understand what I meant: All of a sudden you're excited about sex, you feel on top of the world, you want to meet women and you feel like an Alpha. Some then will watch porn or go to their female, others will cheat. I'm just acknowledging how powerful that urge is.


Are you saying that you have cheated on your wife?


----------



## Weathered (Dec 15, 2009)

Feeling on top of the world gives a guy a superiority complex - and that can even be from having a wonderful day topped off by a lot of lovely pleasantries from your own spouse, including sex. What should humble us is that no matter how good we think we are, we are not God's gift to anyone or anything. We are only to be a blessing to our own spouses, and learn to give more than to take.


----------



## The Cro-Magnon (Sep 30, 2012)

LiamNeeson said:


> Sometimes staying faithful to a woman is hard because of urges. How do you overcome these? I don't know if I want to not have these urges, they are so powerful. Is the old Indian saying true about the two wolves, and the one you feed winning?


WTF am I reading? Are you a human being, or some kind of farm animal?


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Is it natural to stay faithful? Just depends what type of man you are. If you are a faithful man then it’s natural for you to stay faithful. If you’re an unfaithful man then it’s natural for you to be unfaithful.



It just depends what your own specific values, beliefs and rules of married life are. If you believe in being faithful, value what you get out of being faithful then you’ll have a rule something like “I will not give into the temptation of other women”. Which is of course a personal boundary, there to protect your values and beliefs.


If you want to know why not to give into temptation spend some time in Coping with Infidelity. Plus imagine your wife in bed with another man for a while.


----------



## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

There is a huge amount of evidence that monogamy is not natural for either gender. That doesn't mean that we should be unfaithful, but you need to understand what you are dealing with - a battle against your nature - in order to win the prize of lifelong marital harmony. 

Because evolution is so slow-moving our physiology lags behind our social development. So, although we know that monogamous pair bonding is the best format for our children and society as a whole, we find it tough, as is evidenced by the high failure rate of monogamous partnerships. 

You have to understand your instincts and see them for what they are - the breeding strategy of a caveman - in order to be able to ignore them and do the right thing.


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Both males and females have the urges you describe. As humans, we've learned that neither gender copes too well with an unfaithful partner, so we've chosen to become monogamous.

The choice is yours, but I would suggest that you think very carefully.


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

This line of argument about humans are just like animals ,and that we were not programmed to be monogamous always amuses me.

Show me an ape or monkey who could drive a car during rush hours and apply make up, talking on a cellphone whilst changing gears , and I will believe the argument.

How do animals " spice up" their sex lives?
Humans may have similarities to animals but we are way advanced, and the same laws do not govern us.

The urge to have sex is natural for humans, but so too, the urge to eat , excrete and sleep.
We _choose_ to eat what we want / feel to eat.
We _choose_ where we want defecate.
We _choose_ where it is safe enough for us to fall asleep.

Human beings have evolved way beyond the stage of being slaves to our natural urges.
That's the reason any random guy cannot walk into your house, take your car keys and drive off in your car, in spite of his 
" urges."
We have laws.
We have developed a complex system of rules, conventions and laws to help preserve our species.
That's what makes us _different_ to animals.
That's why we try to control our urges.


----------



## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

LiamNeeson said:


> Sometimes staying faithful to a woman is hard because of urges. How do you overcome these? I don't know if I want to not have these urges, they are so powerful. Is the old Indian saying true about the two wolves, and the one you feed winning?
> 
> It's pretty obvious that infidelity is a bane to society at-large and at home. It creates the potential for conflict. Yet isn't that what life is about, conflict... coming together and breaking apart? So is it that we are supposed to follow our natural instincts or is it better to follow the rules of society?
> 
> In many cases the ones being hurt by infidelity are commiting it themselves to some extent, because it's in their nature. Society is simply seeking to cover the hurt up. So... how does one become an ubermensch and overcomes these urges and forego the whole moral dilemma?


Are you married? If not, I'd advise you to get these urges out of your system before committing to one woman. That's what the single years are for.


----------



## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Humans are not the only animals that choose monogamy. The following are monogamous for more than one mating season:-

1. Ducks
2. Eagles
3. Foxes
4. Geese
5. Gibbons
6. Lynx
7. Marmosets
8. Mountain lions
9. Swans
10. Wolves
11. Beavers 

Whilst these animals might go on to choose new mates when the off-spring have 'flown the nest,' one has to bear in mind that in humans the off-spring aren't self-sufficient until they are young adults.


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

Part of the problem is people are told its unnatural to be monogamous. Which I believe is untrue and an excuse for poor behaviour.

We also live in a society that encourages us to go to the very edge with sexual temptation with perving being excused, the saturation of porn in our lives, same sex friends and even outright flirting excused. With sayings like you can look at the menu just eat at home etc

The problem with all of this is it takes away from the unique sexual bond a couple should have and shares it around making it a norm for people to be excited and tempted by others. This makes it so much more difficult for many to stay faithful. 

Focus on your partner, enrich your sexual connection turning to each other and the temptation should lesson and hopefully disappear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Part of the problem is people are told its unnatural to be monogamous. Which I beleive is untrue and an excise for poor behaviour.


Trying to pretend that monogamy is natural is counter productive. It is not an excuse to be unfaithful, but understanding the problem is the first step to successfully overcoming it. 

We have evolved to be polygamous and we have to understand that first if we are going to overcome the obvious problem we have being monogamous.

Only a minority of human societies even attempt monogamy and the rest try, but fail with tragic regularity. As is the case in the West. It is silly to continue to believe that we are 'made to be monogamous' when all evidence points to the contrary and this belief hinders us in our attempts to stay faithful.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

I think the real problem is a lack of self control. I believe lots of things. Some are probably false truths.

Justification for wrong actions will not help anything.


----------



## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Cosmos said:


> Humans are not the only animals that choose monogamy. The following are monogamous for more than one mating season:-
> 
> 1. Ducks
> 2. Eagles
> ...


These animals are _socially _monogamous, but DNA testing has shown the even animals which appear to be monogamous indulge in 'extra-pair' mating.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Depends on the person. 

I truly believe that far less people are suited for committed monogamy than our society truly wants to accept. 

I believe traditional marriage should be far more rare. It should be undertaken by people who are in tuned enough with self to know that they have a good, decent, realistic shot at making monogamy work indefinitely. 

If you fear you can not, then either don't marry, or marry someone who is comfortable with an open marriage.

What's the point of being married if you are tortured constantly by temptations to sleep around on a spouse who has faith in your fidelity? At some point it's absurd to continue such a fruitless fight.

There is no shame in NOT getting married.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

It is a variety of things.. Will Your Man Cheat?



> *Indicators that Your Man is at a Higher Risk for Cheating*:
> 
> Genetic Factors:
> 
> ...


More about what scientists are discovering about the Prairie Voles >> The Shocking Truth About Monogamy: Why Some Men Are Destined to Cheat - 




> Partner Bonding.... AutomaticRomantic : The chemistry of love
> 
> 
> Over time the passionate elements of romantic love subside. The intense feelings of ecstasy and the roller-coaster of emotions are slowly replaced by warm feelings of contentment, security and belonging. Psychologists call this kind of love companionate love to distinguish it from passionate or romantic love.
> ...


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Depends on the person.
> 
> I truly believe that far less people are suited for committed monogamy than our society truly wants to accept.
> 
> ...



This is the only part I disagree with. How do you know, if you are in an open marriage, that the person you are sleeping with outside the marriage is interested in a one night stand or a relationship that will never lead to marriage? I believe this is selfish and harmful if the subject is not addressed before any type of relationship, even a one night stand.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> Part of the problem is people are told its unnatural to be monogamous. Which I beleive is untrue and an excise for poor behaviour.
> 
> We also live in a society that encourages us to go to the very edge with sexual temptation with perving being excused, the saturation of porn in our lives, same sex friends and even outright flirting excused. With sayings like you can look at the menu just eat at home etc
> 
> ...


Monagomoy has always been a major problem with human beings.

It has nothing to do with the list of blames you're noting above.

The only difference is that the punishment for women being cheaters was so severe that it impeded most to take the risk.

And men have always cheated. Always. And in large numbers. In fact it use to be far more acceptable to expect a man to cheat. However the societal pressures to stay married were so much greater, so you didn't likely divorce your spouse for the sake of taking up with your mistress.

And that's not all societies. Plenty of societies in human history have made concubines, mistresses, and multiple wives allowable in order to deal with the issues at hand.

This idea that we only now are running into infidelity problems thanks to changes in modern society is a big, fat, easily debunked lie.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> This is the only part I disagree with. How do you know, if you are in an open marriage, that the person you are sleeping with outside the marriage is interested in a one night stand or a relationship that will never lead to marriage? I believe this is selfish and harmful if the subject is not addressed before any type of relationship, even a one night stand.


If two people enter into an open marriage, then obviously they've discussed the fact that they both mutually want an open marriage before heading in.

I'm not talking about someone who decides midway through marriage to say to their spouse "hey, how about we open this thing up!".


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

jaquen said:


> If two people enter into an open marriage, then obviously they've discussed the fact that they both mutually want an open marriage before heading in.
> 
> I'm not talking about someone who decides midway through marriage to say to their spouse "hey, how about we open this thing up!".



Yes. I agree with this. I meant that the one night stand partner may think they have a chance of a relationship and they may be thinking they do. How do you avoid hurting someone that is not in this open marriage relationship? Does the husband or wife just not care about the feelings of the "affair parner"? 

Trying to understand here. Maybe I care too much about the other person? Maybe ...... ahh too many questions.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

2ntnuf said:


> Yes. I agree with this. I meant that the one night stand partner may think they have a chance of a relationship and they may be thinking they do. How do you avoid hurting someone that is not in this open marriage relationship? Does the husband or wife just not care about the feelings of the "affair parner"?
> 
> Trying to understand here. Maybe I care too much about the other person? Maybe ...... ahh too many questions.


Some people in open marriages make an agreement that said information is to be disclosed up front with potential partners.

Also if you wear a wedding ring, which most married people do, and someone still wants to have sex with you, clearly that's up to them. In that case I think it should be made perfectly clear that the married person is not open to anything serious at all, and they never will be.

In an open marriage being honest, and upfront, with all parties is key.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Some people in open marriages make an agreement that said information is to be disclosed up front with potential partners.
> 
> Also if you wear a wedding ring, which most married people do, and someone still wants to have sex with you, clearly that's up to them. In that case I think it should be made perfectly clear that the married person is not open to anything serious at all, and they never will be.
> 
> In an open marriage being honest, and upfront, with all parties is key.


Thank you for this. It confirms what I thought and helps me realize I am thinking clearly.


----------



## *LittleDeer* (Apr 19, 2012)

jaquen said:


> Monagomoy has always been a major problem with human beings.
> 
> It has nothing to do with the list of blames you're noting above.
> 
> ...


A lie? Really. :scratchhead: You are incredibly rude. 

I think that the thee throughout history would be not valuing women, not valuing monogamy and making excuses for those who are unfaithful.

But that does not mean all men throughout history were unfaithful. 

To me it comes down to the values you have and that society has, if they excuse poor behaviour or not. Of course if men (and women) are taught it's unnatural to be faithful and it's ok to sleep with many people, then they will be more likely to be unfaithful, then people who are taught to be faithful and vlue sexul connection and long term relationships.

Thu saying men have all ways done it, is a rubbish excuse men(and some women) like to use and will obviously continue to use. 

It is a choice, that I believe is heavily and has all ways heavily been influenced by society, and people like you making excuses for poor behaviour instead of expecting a higher standard of behaviour from people


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

*LittleDeer* said:


> A lie? Really. :scratchhead: You are incredibly rude.


And you're perhaps being a little self centered?

It's not LittleDee's personal lie. It's a great, widely perpetuated, societal wide lie. Nobody is calling you out personally. I highly doubt you had nefarious intent to purposefully mislead.




*LittleDeer* said:


> But that does not mean all men throughout history were unfaithful.



Did I say that all men, throughout history, were unfaithful?



*LittleDeer* said:


> people like you making excuses for poor behaviour instead of expecting a higher standard of behaviour from people


Projecting much?

Quote me any post where I "made excuses for poor behavior"?

You can't. All you are doing is diverting this discussion by arguing against points I never made.

Bottom line is, you were wrong. Historically humanity has struggled with the concept of monogamy, and to suggest that modern societal changes are responsible for wide spread infidelity is false.


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> Trying to pretend that monogamy is natural is counter productive. It is not an excuse to be unfaithful, but understanding the problem is the first step to successfully overcoming it.
> 
> We have evolved to be polygamous and we have to understand that first if we are going to overcome the obvious problem we have being monogamous.
> 
> Only a minority of human societies even attempt monogamy and the rest try, but fail with tragic regularity. As is the case in the West. It is silly to continue to believe that we are 'made to be monogamous' when all evidence points to the contrary and this belief hinders us in our attempts to stay faithful.


This is bull. I say this because there is tons of evidence proving monogamy to be natural amongst humans. Humanity is much too complex to say it has evolved to be polygamous. I do agree that a certain section of humanity may have evolved this way but there is also a certain section that remains monogamous. 

Morals are not necessarily society based. Each individual has thier own personal set of morals. That there is natural in itself as other animals have thier own morals as well. Both personal and society based. Many creatures mate for life on this planet and several will never take another mate if thier own dies.

I agree with AFEH. If your faithful and monogamous by nature then you will remain faithful and monogamous. If your unfaithful and polygamous by nature then you will remain unfaithful and polygamous. Then there are the choices one makes to change themselves for good or bad.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Gaia said:


> This is bull. I say this because there is tons of evidence proving monogamy to be natural amongst humans.


I am afraid it isn't bull. If monogamy was natural why would only 17% of human societies practice it (Murdock's Atlas of Human Culture)? Even those which do try, like the USA, fail to a large extent. Why would we have evolved the jealousy hormones vasopressin and oxytocin if we were just naturally monogamous? We have also contructed social institutions, like marriage, to prevent infidelity. We wear rings, Hindus put a dot on the foreheads of married women. Why would we bother if it monogamy came naturally?


Gaia said:


> Humanity is much too complex to say it has evolved to be polygamous. I do agree that a certain section of humanity may have evolved this way but there is also a certain section that remains monogamous.


 It is complex but we have all evolved the same sex organs. Men produce millions of sperm all through their adult lives, even when their partners are infertile - while pregnant or during menopause. We wouldn't have evolved that ability if we were naturally monogamous. 



Gaia said:


> Morals are not necessarily society based. Each individual has thier own personal set of morals. That there is natural in itself as other animals have thier own morals as well. Both personal and society based. Many creatures mate for life on this planet and several will never take another mate if thier own dies.


Only 3% of animals are socially monogamous. Virtually every time DNA studies are done on these 'monogamous' animals they are found to have engaged in Extra-pair Copulations. They might pair-bond, but very, very few, if any, are truly monogamous.


Gaia said:


> I agree with AFEH. If your faithful and monogamous by nature then you will remain faithful and monogamous. If your unfaithful and polygamous by nature then you will remain unfaithful and polygamous. Then there are the choices one makes to change themselves for good or bad.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am not using this as a justification for infidelity, in fact quite the opposite. We need to understand our urges in order to overcome them. All too often people will convince themselves that the reason they are attracted to somebody else is because there is something missing in their current relationship, rather than realising that it is simply a left-over instinct from our evolutionary past which can and should be ignored. Just like the urge to fight, to kill our rivals and to eat every bit of animal fat you can get your hands on.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

I wonder if some of those here just don’t get that “feeling” when they see a woman or a man they’re attracted to. It’s most certainly lust but also more than lust. It’s a chemical reaction that starts in the stomach region and spreads throughout the body until it knocks on our door of consciousness.

Sure, we can feel this way, fall in love with and eventually marry our woman (or man) and really get to know her/him, over time and as she changes.



But to think there’s only one person on the planet that can generate those deep and intense feelings inside of us is, for me at least a bit crazy.



And when we do feel about that way about another woman (or man) it all depends what we do with the feeling. These things are immensely tempting, basically because they are quite literally designed to be tempting. It’s the very nature of “attraction and pair bonding”.


It’s like all temptations in life. It just depends what you do with them. Sometimes the temptations are immense and take a strong will not to give into them.


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Jealousy isnt developed. Its a natural basic instinct that comes with being territorial. Just because a large perceng has cultures that practice polygamy does not mean those men or women are actually ok with it. In fact alot of that could be blamed on society. Marking ones mate or mates isnt unheard of either. Plenty of species do this.

By the way I cant exactly quote like you did so I will respond to each section in paragraphs if you dont mind.

Again I say that statement is incorrect. If you want to go that route females produce eggs while still in the womb. This has nothing to do with being monogamous or not. There are males born sterile, females born with male parts and males born with female parts so no not everyone is born with the same sexual organs we believe they should have. Again I dont believe that determines if one is suppose to be monogamous or not. 

Where do you get that info? What study claims this? The 3% thing that is.

Not everything is chalked up or down to urges. Something could very well be missing in the relationship. I am sorry but I see this as just another attempt at trying to rationalize with biology based on studies that just scrape the surface of things. 

Being monogamous isnt an attempt at anything. To state it is ... Is just odd imo. I do understand people are "wired" differently so no one can really say all of humanity is a certain way. Blanket statements or studies are just that... Mere generalizations. They will never be 100% accurate.

I do agree that people need to have more self control but unfortunately far too many will use a post like yours to justify and continue to act like primitive neanderthals.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

I am not saying people will never be attracted to or fall in love with another. They can and do but if they are still with someone and that someone cheats.... I dont think it would do such psychological damage if humans werent monogamous.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Ok just to clear things up. Alot of my post is my opinion on how I feel about the matter. I know I need to put imo after parts that are my opinion but I tend to forget so I apologize for that.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jfv (May 29, 2012)

Evolutionary biologists describe human biengs in relation to the rest of the animal kingdom as 'mildly monogamous'. I suggest people read books and articles from people who have dedicated their lives to study things like this. It is obvious that johnnycomelately has.


----------



## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Gaia said:


> Jealousy isnt developed. Its a natural basic instinct that comes with being territorial. Just because a large perceng has cultures that practice polygamy does not mean those men or women are actually ok with it. In fact alot of that could be blamed on society. Marking ones mate or mates isnt unheard of either. Plenty of species do this.


I don't understand your point here.



Gaia said:


> Again I say that statement is incorrect. If you want to go that route females produce eggs while still in the womb. This has nothing to do with being monogamous or not. There are males born sterile, females born with male parts and males born with female parts so no not everyone is born with the same sexual organs we believe they should have. Again I dont believe that determines if one is suppose to be monogamous or not.


Again, I am not sure what you are saying. There is a lot of physical and cultural evidence that humans have been polygamous for most of our evolution. How do you account for the fact that the male produces millions of sperm every day, even when the female is no longer fertile? Why would we have evolved that way? 

Monogamy is rare amongst humans now, and for millions of years it was virtually non-existent. There is simply now way you can argue it is natural when it rarely happens. If it was natural we would have no trouble sticking to it. Threads like this wouldn't exist and there would be no need to be jealous and as vigilant as we have to be.



Gaia said:


> Where do you get that info? What study claims this? The 3% thing that is.


It is the most accepted statistic out there if you research monogamy in animals. This quote is from LiveScience: 

_Of the roughly 5,000 species of mammals, only 3 to 5 percent are known to form lifelong pair bonds. This select group includes beavers, otters, wolves, some bats and foxes and a few hoofed animals.

And even the creatures that do pair and mate for life occasionally have flings on the side and some, like the wolf, waste little time finding a new mate if their old one dies or can no longer sexually perform. 
_



Gaia said:


> Not everything is chalked up or down to urges. Something could very well be missing in the relationship. I am sorry but I see this as just another attempt at trying to rationalize with biology based on studies that just scrape the surface of things.
> 
> Being monogamous isnt an attempt at anything. To state it is ... Is just odd imo. I do understand people are "wired" differently so no one can really say all of humanity is a certain way. Blanket statements or studies are just that... Mere generalizations. They will never be 100% accurate.
> 
> ...


Well, idiots will always find justication for their actions. I don't believe that anyone will or won't be unfaithful based on my posts.

I also just don't think that ignorance is ever a good idea. If we think monogamy is natural we are not prepared for the inevitable feelings we will have for others. What is our objective here? To help people like the OP understand his feelings and avoid making a mistake or are we here to feel superior and tell him he is wrong to feel the way he does? He is not wrong. It is not immoral to have sexual desire for others, that is our nature (men and women) but it is wrong to act on those feelings to the detriment of your family. 

We have tried pretending that monogamy is natural and look where it got us?


----------



## BjornFree (Aug 16, 2012)

Natural or not, someone using that as an excuse clearly does not know how to take responsibility for their own actions.


----------



## dojo (Jul 4, 2011)

I can't understand these 'urges' either. i mean we've been together for 10 years and I can't imagine getting close to any other man. I love the guy, I'm faithful to him, simple as that.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> I truly believe that far less people are suited for committed monogamy than our society truly wants to accept.


I would agree that far less people are suited for long-term (as in decades-long) monogamy than our society truly wants to accept. 

I think people can be monogamous for years, but there reaches a tipping point (the old saw about 'the 7 year itch') which would seem to indicate that throughout generations, people have had (and still DO have) a hard time MAINTAINING monogamy with the same person for decades.

Note: I said Hard Time, not Impossible.

This is the MAIN REASON I do not intend to ever marry again.


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Let me put this as simply as possible. Both monogamy and polygamy can be found throughout humanities history just as it can be found that women were not submissive to men but in fact respected leaders. A mans sperm count doesnt mean he was meant to be polygamous. To me thats like saying that a female human was meant to be bred as soon as she was born because she produces eggs. That is my point with that.


I get the feeling that you may be under the impression that I am saying humans only mate once and thats that. That is not what I am saying at all. I am saying that monogamy isnt something that some people "pretend" to do. Some just do it and have no problem doing it while clearly others dont so to say its not natural is false imo. I feel its just as natural as polygamy. That isnt ignorance. What is ignorant is to believe all people work the same.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Caribbean Man (Jun 3, 2012)

Trenton said:


> Aye. It's funny this nature thing. We as humans do more unnatural things than any other species and yet want to fall back on nature all the time.
> 
> I believe in possibilities so much so that it drives the people around me insane. "That's impossible. That would take years to happen. No way." Yet, when I ask, "Why not?" and offer suggestions, they always give me the same perplexed face.
> 
> ...


Thank you Trenton!
Thanks Gaia!


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Well I don't see a point in being faithful to my seperated wife anymore, I have to be honest with her however, tomorrow I'll have to let her know - I can't just keep living like this feeling sorry for myself, I need to get laid, I've obviously gone nuts without sex if anyone has read the threads I just deleted


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Uh random.... I clearly missed something. Last thread I read of yours you were complaining that your wife was a nympho and you couldnt keep up because she wanted it all the time.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jfv (May 29, 2012)

Gaia, he's trying to threadjack, don't let him.


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Oh ok ... :/
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

Our issues turned out to be far more complicated than just nymphomania. This seperation has really helped both of us realise how we've fked up. I'm not ready for reconciliation let alone a new relationship, but I'm human, sex is still a need. I'm not like my STBX who needs it multiple times a day, but it's been quite a while now since I've had a woman in my arms.

I've rejected a potential f--kbuddy already, and I seem to have quite a few options, turns out my STBX was right about the "harpies", they are swooping down now since I've seperated from her. I probably won't enjoy it, but if it helps maintain my sanity, it can't be all bad right?

I don't know, I wonder how she will react tomorrow because I did tell her that I'm not going to fk around considering she's not. I've kept my word, but now... I don't think I can go on without some form of release

ACK... yes I'm hijacking, sorry! Back to topic


----------



## BeachGuy (Jul 6, 2011)

I've looked at and desired woman all of my life. Including during my married life. Discreetly looked, of course. I think that's normal for guys. But I never once considered acting on it or having and affair (and I had several opportunities). It just wasn't an option the way I was raised. Neither was divorce.

Notwithstanding my current situation, if my wife had not thrown me under the bus and stopped having sex with me, I'd still be monogamous. But that urge to be with other women has been with me my entire life. I have no idea why.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

BjornFree said:


> Natural or not, someone using that as an excuse clearly does not know how to take responsibility for their own actions.


Have I missed it .... has anyone on this thread made excuses for being unfaithful... blaming nature? 




> *johnnycomelately said*:
> Well, idiots will always find justication for their actions. I don't believe that anyone will or won't be unfaithful based on my posts.
> 
> I also just don't think that ignorance is ever a good idea. If we think monogamy is natural we are not prepared for the inevitable feelings we will have for others. What is our objective here? To help people like the OP understand his feelings and avoid making a mistake or are we here to feel superior and tell him he is wrong to feel the way he does? He is not wrong. It is not immoral to have sexual desire for others, that is our nature (men and women) but it is wrong to act on those feelings to the detriment of your family.


This is how I see it also... :iagree: 

I so enjoy reading books about our Hormones....I am fascinated by such things ...this is my favorite - it breaks down all the sexual hormones & explains them >>

The Alchemy of Love and Lust: 

The entire premises of this book is to help us understand how these hormones affect our brains .... in this way, we can better understand what is happening to us...so we can RISE above it (this is where our beliefs about love, commitment, our morals, integrity comes into place -this must surpass our baser instincts)

....At the beginning of the book, it spoke about a new MOM breastfeeding, this almost led to a divorce, she lost her sex drive completely -the young husband so frustrated = horrible marriage problems.... once they learned that high prolactin levels due to breastfeeding LOWERS the sex drive, that this was a temporary thing....misunderstanding went out the window & they were able to get through that time together. 

Also PMS was discussed, do us women really want to argue we don't have a change in our brains during this time? Medical imaging has shed light on this. Are we going to deny science. 
Does it mean we should be allowed to become a RAVING Bi*ch, of course not! But if we get a little out of sorts, it sure helps if we understand what Is going on, and even for our husbands to bear with us, love us through it. Same as HIS HIGH TEST levels, Experts say men have 10- 50 times higher levels over women....

This is why Men are so antsy in their youth....My God... I wish I understood this earlier in my marriage, why didn't someone explain this to me... I wasn't feeling it LIKE MY HUSBAND WAS BACK THEN, not as often. For women to understand their men & their NEEDS for sex, how many marriages could be saved. No, ignorance is NOT BLISS... it is nothing but hindering in these very important areas. 

A man experiencing a robust active emotionally connected sex life with his wife in & outside the bedroom is far less likely to cheat - unless he is bankrupt morally & just plain selfish, hiding behind lies. Does a person possess integrity or do they not...this is the question?

The husband who is being utterly rejected at home time & time again... he is a hurting man, like one thirsting in the desert, if you think he isn't going to wrestle with some tempting thoughts......you are dreaming. It doesn't mean he would do it, but the thoughts will come in. It's what he does with those thoughts/ fantasies. If he allows them to become a run away train & takes actions into making them a reality. 

This is taken from that book : 



> *As to Sexual roles -Testosterone *:
> 
> *Increases sexual thoughts & fantasies
> *Responds to Novelty , inspires one night stands & affairs
> ...



 Why We Love: The Nature and Chemistry of Romantic Love  

This is Your Brain in Love: New Scientific Breakthroughs for a More Passionate and Emotionally Healthy Marriage:

Still Madly in Love? Brain Scans Can Explain


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Thats interesting simply. Thanks for posting it.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## RandomDude (Dec 18, 2010)

> The husband who is being utterly rejected at home time & time again... he is a hurting man, like one thirsting in the desert, if you think he isn't going to wrestle with some tempting thoughts -at least in the mind...you are dreaming. It doesn't mean he would do it, but the thoughts will come in. It's what he does with those thoughts/ fantasies. If he allows them to become a run away train & takes actions into making them a reality.


I have to admit, I admire folks in sexless marriages and them sticking to their principles/morals. I doubt I can keep it in my pants if my STBX didn't put out considering how nuts I've already become without sex recently - I wonder how the hell she's coping really considering she's a nympho, she's probably fking someone right now and lying to me this whole time. It's even harder when there's so many opportunities presenting themselves as well. She's always had guys hitting on her as well


----------



## YinPrincess (Jul 31, 2011)

To me personally, I believe "faithful" and "monogamous" to be two separate ideas. I don't believe monogamy to be natural (for humans) at all. Most monogamous species have a reason for it, many of which do not apply to humans.

If you're having trouble remaining monogamous, or being at peace with the idea of it, examine why you might be feeling that way. It's not all biological, but a good portion of it probably is. If you have a good relationship where there is trust it might be a good idea to express how you are feeling... And hopefully it would be a safe venue for you.

I don't remain monogamous for my husband... I do it for myself because I choose to live by a few die-hard standards.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

For me, it is and I'd richly have to say that it was due to my loving and caring upbringing by my parents. And to that extent, I'm thinking that I have successfully conveyed that over to my two college-aged sons.

And while I'm a strong proponent of the upbringing theory, I also feel that infidelity could also perhaps be greatly influenced by certain hereditary factors.


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

The beautiful thing about humanity is that we are highly complex entities not driven by instinct, but by choice. We are also highly adaptable forces; we can exist in both mono and poly scenarios. The legions of sexless marriages where the put out spouse still chooses not to cheat are a testament to the power of the human will.

I do believe monogamy comes more naturally to some than others. But no matter how much you dig into the history of humanity, and the reasons we are the way we are, the bottom line is still the same; the greatest attribute of humanity is the power of choice.


----------



## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Gaia said:


> Let me put this as simply as possible. Both monogamy and polygamy can be found throughout humanities history


That is just it, it can't be found through humanity's history. It is very rare now and before the advent of Judeo-Christian morality it was even more uncommon. As a general rule humans aren't truly monogamous and never have been. 

If you say something is 'natural' that would mean it would be the most common situation. It's not the most common situation. It is rare. It is rare because it is not natural, but a social construct and a relatively recent one at that, in terms of evolutionary time. We are still living with the physiology that evolved over millions of years that gave men the urge to mate with as many females as possible and women the urge to augment the genetic input of their childern with several high-quality males. 

That is the strategy found in birds and we are have very similar breeding strategies, in that we are social animals which form pair-bonds, as opposed to most pair-bonding animals, like gibbons, which are not social.



Gaia said:


> A mans sperm count doesnt mean he was meant to be polygamous.


It absolutely does. Why would we evolve to produce sperm at a rate which far surpasses a single partner's ability to produce eggs? We produce sperm when our partner is pregnant, in menopause or infertile for whatever reason, because we evolved to have more than one partner. That is a cold, hard fact. 



Gaia said:


> To me thats like saying that a female human was meant to be bred as soon as she was born because she produces eggs.


Your point about the eggs is not valid as a human female only becomes fertile at puberty. But that is a good example of a social contruct which is at odds with our nature. We, quite rightly, have developed a taboo against women breeding before 16-18, even though naturally human females have evolved to breed from the age of about 13. Throughout most of human history women have become pregnant almost as soon as they are fertile. We have moved away from that, just as we have (tried) to move away from polygamy. 

To believe that to have sexual urges before 16 is unnatural is plain stupid, but that does not mean that we should accept teenage sex and allow our daughters to get pregnant at 13. We have to understand that teenagers have sexual urges just as we have to understand that married people have sexual urges for people other than their partners. 

To pretend that either is unnatural is counter-productive and wouldn't allow us to prepare ourselves for the urges that are going to come whether we like it or not.


----------



## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

It's all justification, all of it. If you don't have the strength to be monogamous, you should admit that to yourself. Accept who you are and stay single. You will be able to do whatever you want without any legal or moral obligations.

It's just that simple.


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

Johnny it is natural to be monogamous and faithful. If you look outside the biblical refrences you will find it. I have never said people do not have sexual urges but I know I am not the only person in the world who is naturally faithful and monogamous. By the way I have had sexual urges before puberty. Im sure I am not the only one. Yes females can get pregnant before puberty as well. There ate cases of children as young as four becomming pregnant. Is it ok? No not in my eyes. Like I said sperm production proves nothing when it ckmes to being monogamous or not.

I know my body and I know myself. You saying monogamy isnt natural despite others already saying it is for them is like telling them they must not be human or natural then. Like I said your research and studies are just blanket statements. Polygamy is practiced due to cultural reasons and tradition but it doesnt mean monogamy isnt natural. 

So yes monogamy is and has been quite common throughout history.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

jaquen said:


> The beautiful thing about humanity is that we are highly complex entities not driven by instinct, but by choice. We are also highly adaptable forces; we can exist in both mono and poly scenarios. The legions of sexless marriages where the put out spouse still chooses not to cheat are a testament to the power of the human will.
> 
> I do believe monogamy comes more naturally to some than others. But no matter how much you dig into the history of humanity, and the reasons we are the way we are, the bottom line is still the same; the greatest attribute of humanity is the power of choice.


Well said jaquen and I agree.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaquen (Mar 1, 2012)

Yes, the pictures of the pregnant four year old are some of the most disturbing things I've ever witnessed.


----------



## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Gaia said:


> Johnny it is natural to be monogamous and faithful. If you look outside the biblical refrences you will find it. I have never said people do not have sexual urges but I know I am not the only person in the world who is naturally faithful and monogamous. By the way I have had sexual urges before puberty. Im sure I am not the only one. Yes females can get pregnant before puberty as well. There ate cases of children as young as four becomming pregnant. Is it ok? No not in my eyes. Like I said sperm production proves nothing when it ckmes to being monogamous or not.
> 
> I know my body and I know myself. You saying monogamy isnt natural despite others already saying it is for them is like telling them they must not be human or natural then. Like I said your research and studies are just blanket statements. Polygamy is practiced due to cultural reasons and tradition but it doesnt mean monogamy isnt natural.
> 
> ...


I think we diagree on the definition of natural, that's all.


----------



## tiredwife&sahm (Jan 4, 2012)

I think it is more natural for women to be monogamous than men. I know women do cheat of course, but I feel we have a easier time with it than men do for reasons I can not explain.


----------



## Gaia (Apr 27, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> I think we diagree on the definition of natural, that's all.


I think you may be right. 
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Slick1044 (Dec 2, 2012)

If you want to stay faithful then you can, and if you don't then you will cheat. It also has to do with respect of yourself and your partner.

I just found out a few days ago my boyfriend was cheating on me with other men and women. 

It really really hurts. So if you know you can't be faithful then don't commit to another person. Have the courage to end it before it happens. I wish so much that would have been what my boyfriend did.


----------



## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Cheating can run in families. Father cheats, sons cheat and so on down the line. Heard one father, brother and son bragging about the number of women they had while married. The father’s wife knew of one affair, she hadn’t a clue of all the others and the ons. It’s like water off a duck’s back to some and something to be proud of.


----------



## SlowlyGettingWiser (Apr 7, 2012)

> It's all justification, all of it. If you don't have the strength to be monogamous, you should admit that to yourself. Accept who you are and stay single. You will be able to do whatever you want without any legal or moral obligations.
> 
> It's just that simple.


Have to say this is OVERSIMPLIFICATION.

Yes, some people *DO* know they don't have the strength to be monogamous, it's not in their personalities and it's not something they value. They cheat when dating, they cheat when engaged, they cheat when married. I* would agree that your statement applies to them.*

Other people meet up with the totally unable to be predicted 'perfect storm'. I have actually told a married person here on TAM that I thought physically cheating on her spouse was understandable in her situation and that I would not look askance at it in HER particular (very particular) set of circumstances! I never thought I'd do that as I DO NOT believe in cheating.

Her circumstances were such that i was prompted to tell her that I felt no compunction in telling her that I would FULLY understand her wanting a sexual relationship outside of her "marriage" and that I would not feel that SHE was IMMORAL for doing so.

I am NOT sure I am comfortable 'outing' this person's story here on THIS thread (although it is on another thread). It just proved to me AGAIN the sagacity of that old saying 'never say NEVER!'


----------



## Labcoat (Aug 12, 2012)

johnnycomelately said:


> It is very rare now and before the advent of Judeo-Christian morality it was even more uncommon.


I love it when people suggest that morality was imposed upon humans from out of thin air. Rather than the reality of the situation, that humans codified a reproductive strategy that had served them for a few millennia and proved superior.

Monogamy provided these "unnatural" humans with more efficient resource allocation than the tribes of "natural" humans that surrounded them. In the west, the former quite handily conquered the latter.

So yeah, today non-monogamy is totally natural... on average for those genetically destined to occupy the lowest echelons of humanity.


----------



## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

tiredwife&sahm said:


> I think it is more natural for women to be monogamous than men. I know women do cheat of course, but I feel we have a easier time with it than men do for reasons I can not explain.


Some experts say Men have 10-100 times more testosterone over women.... if it is too high, it's like a curse, it causes men to want more variety, more novelty, more KINK, more sex, all of that. Men who are too low, don't even think about sex or care about porn, they have little motivation, so it is easier  for them to keep it at home. 

I'm a woman, and I would have to leave a sexless or "lacking desire" marriage, I'd be too miserable to stay....and Yes, I would be tempted. 

It is good to recognize what one deeply needs in a marriage and communicate it - so your spouse knows & hopefully steps up to fulfill .....if you can't come to a peaceful way of dealing with how to take care of each other & be sexually satisfied....it's best to get out... even if others may judge, let them judge.

Lying and cheating is never something I condone...however none of us (at least those who are higher drive ) get married to be Monks.

I'll be the 1st to say... I LOVE monogamy, I think it's beautiful, it's ideal for raising children, I can handle it very well, BUT this is a testament to how good my husband has been to me, he's not someone who denies my needs, if he did.... we'd have a different story on TAM , this I know. 

I pretty much THINK like SlowlyGettingWiser & his words... too many boast.... "Oh that could never happen to me" and live to eat those words.... Until you have walked in another's shoes & tasted of their deep pain & struggle ... some have situations that are utterly heart breaking...heck I have teared up many a times just reading these stories! I'm a mess at my keyboard and want to lash out at their spouse. 

... I do not see these people in the same light as those who have a willing loving enthusiastic spouse at home -yet still go cheating with the waitress at the bar.. 

But when someone's cup is daily rejection, a cold frigid affection-less spouse, they've talked to their blue in the face & blue in the balls ....I just don't see it all in black & white like some do... even though I have not experienced it myself. 

I have sympathy for some who have fallen.


----------



## CandieGirl (Apr 27, 2011)

Maybe it's only 'natural' if you're with the right person.


----------



## johnnycomelately (Oct 30, 2010)

Labcoat said:


> Monogamy provided these "unnatural" humans with more efficient resource allocation than the tribes of "natural" humans that surrounded them. In the west, the former quite handily conquered the latter.


I almost totally agree with you, except that in reality we in the West are not really monogamous. At best we manage serial monogamy. Just a glance at how many prostitutes there are around and the general level of infidelity will tell you that monogamy remains aspirational for us.


----------

