# Lies of omission



## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

In some threads people have talked about lies by omission where someone doesn't tell things about their sexual past - say that they worked as a stripper.

What things would you expect to be told about a partner's past?


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

uhtred said:


> In some threads people have talked about lies by omission where someone doesn't tell things about their sexual past - say that they worked as a stripper.
> 
> What things would you expect to be told about a partner's past?


I would expect to be told if they are / were a sex worker. Or otherwise treated their body like a commodity for certain.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> In some threads people have talked about lies by omission where someone doesn't tell things about their sexual past - say that they worked as a stripper.
> 
> What things would you expect to be told about a partner's past?


Sexual, financial, health history, for starters. 

Honestly, I expect to be told everything. I myself certainly do not hold back.


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## Akfranklin2014 (May 9, 2017)

I would want to be told anything that might have any affect on us and our future together. I don't need to know someone was a stripper if they didn't do anything that could affect their future. 


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Akfranklin2014 said:


> I would want to be told anything that might have any affect on us and our future together. I don't need to know someone was a stripper if they didn't do anything that could affect their future.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You would not want to know just to understand them better?


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## Akfranklin2014 (May 9, 2017)

It's a personal preference really. Honestly if their job as a stripper doesn't effect their future any, then I don't want to know. I know me, and I'm a person that could walk away from what could have been a good relationship because of their past. Knowing someone was a stripper would only have me thinking about who they were with, how many they were with. All I really need to know is 1. Were they safe when it comes to sex 2. Is there any chance of a woman coming forward with their child in tow that they don't know about. From there I may ask certain questions to clarify things, but unless I ask straight out about that, then no I don't feel like I need to know.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

I am an honest open person and I would expect any partner to be the same. Things such as they used to be a stripper, or their relationship past, or if they were made bankrupt or are a porn user etc etc, all are important things to know before marriage.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

What they were, or did, are not necessarily what they are, or do.

I only wanted to know what my girl was at the time I met her. I never asked about her past, and nothing about it was important to me. I just wanted to know who she was at the time I was dating her.

As it happens her past has had a tremendous effect on us, but I still would not change a thing. Her past is pretty dark, and she would not have been able to speak about it. She just wanted to forget, and in fact had repressed much of it. I would never hold that against anyone.

In my opinion anyone who would hold such a thing against someone is a despicable human being.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I just like open people. I was always more attracted to the people who were just themselves warts and all. Doesn't mean I wouldn't have some deal beakers.

I mean if the other post isn't a great example of what you think won't come back to haunt you. Seems like some women who do this sex work want to then just act like they never did it. If you are going to commit to doing it, you need to realize that that commitment is for your entire life. It doesn't just go away. 

Unfortunately the white knight's on the internet drowned everything out with the idea that "Your past is your past, and no one has a right to judge" Most of these women who end up doing that type work are just to young to be experienced enough to know that that's bull****. It's really fairytail thinking. Everyone judges everyone in life, society is built around it. And it ain't going to change any time soon. I also think they don't have parents to enforce this stuff, sadly. Fathers especially. There is a reason why one of Chris Rock's routines is his whole job is to just keep her off the pole. 

If you are going to hide it then you shouldn't do it because you don't really believe or have the strength to follow the mantra that "Your past is your past, no one has the right to judge." If you did you would just be open about it. You need to be this type of person. Unapologetic. 

It should be said though some do it out of desperation and that should be taken into account. But if you lie about it you may take away any good will you might get. 

Besides no one is entitled to a relationship with someone, so if they have deal breakers that's life.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I would only want to hear about things that would affect our future. Major financial commitments. Crimes that had not yet been through the justice system. Sex work only insofar as there was a disease risk.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

I would want to know about any past and/or present criminal history. And that's whether or not they were caught by the police and prosecuted or not. Definitely would want to know about any previous sex crimes. I would also want to know if they were a sex worker and the circumstances. And knowing all of this, I would weight it with who they were today and how they treat me. I would want to know about mental and physical health problems.

I believe very strongly that a person can change. People do it all the time. But I would want to now as much about them as I could.

The problem that people have with sharing this sort of personal information is that a lot of times, their partner will use it against them. So it is a very scary prospect to share about some things.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I also would want to know as much as possible. Making a life together is a huge commitment. 

I think our inner conscience is pretty good about telling us what things most potentional spouses would want/need to know. When something huge has been omitted, it is a piece that is looming over the one marriage mate, and essentially keeping them from being as close to their spouse as they could be if that wasn't there. 

Between my husband and I, he definitely would care WAY less than me about things in the past. Not much seems to ruffle his feathers, whereas I am more sensitive about those types of things.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I would like to know all about a partner's past in order to understand them, but I don't feel like I need to know anything if they aren't comfortable talking about it. 




jld said:


> You would not want to know just to understand them better?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I would like to know all about a partner's past in order to understand them, but I don't feel like I need to know anything if they aren't comfortable talking about it.


Respectfully, uhtred . . . would you say you are kind of passive?


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Depends on what you mean by "passive". I don't feel any particular need to control things that are not important to me. I do control the things that do matter. 

I simply don't care about my partner's past if it doesn't directly affect me. I've never made a point of trying to date a virgin, so I assume my partner has some sexual past. I care about what they are like now, not what they did before they met me. 

I'm sure this is perceived as passive by some. I just don't care if we have Italian or Thai food some evening - I like both. If asked, I'll have an opinion, but I'm not going to push hard one way or the other. 



Other than the insolvable problems with my sex life, the rest of my life is in very good shape. 



jld said:


> Respectfully, uhtred . . . would you say you are kind of passive?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Depends on what you mean by "passive". I don't feel any particular need to control things that are not important to me. I do control the things that do matter.
> 
> I simply don't care about my partner's past if it doesn't directly affect me. I've never made a point of trying to date a virgin, so I assume my partner has some sexual past. I care about what they are like now, not what they did before they met me.
> 
> ...


I am guessing the passivity I sense from you has a lot to do with your unsatisfying sex life.

Just something to consider.


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## michzz (Jun 6, 2008)

Lies of omission can range from trivial to much worse:

Question: "What did you do today?"

Answer: "Not much, Oh yeah, I gassed up the car and bought groceries, then worked out at the gym."

Trivial omission: "I ate a dozen donuts at Krispy Cream and don't want you hassling me about it. so I did not mention it."

Nontrivial omission: "Before working out at the gym I stopped off at my secret love's apartment and got laid. I only worked out at the gym so I'd have an excuse to get a shower before coming home."


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

It is not possible to list the things I would want to know about, because there are things I would never think of ahead of time. Yes, I would want to know if she'd been a sex worker, used illegal drugs, had been addicted to legal substances, arrested for or convicted of crimes, been bankrupt, or been the victim of a violent crime.

For me, though, it falls into 2 categories. One is to know the true nature of the person to be sure we are compatible, and the other is to know of anything which could become a complication in our lives later on. That stalker ex-bf of hers who was convicted of killing a woman and is due out of prison in 5 years, yeah I need to know about that!

I think a person should answer all questions fully and honestly. If they don't want to give a fully honest answer then they can say they won't answer it. A person should volunteer all information which they think their partner would want to know about. The questions and discussions within a relationship give us an excellent idea of what the other person would think important. A person should also disclose anything which could become an issue in the future, either by being an embarrassment or by being a financial or legal issue.

I'm in the camp of full disclosure and open honesty.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

michzz said:


> Lies of omission can range from trivial to much worse:
> 
> Question: "What did you do today?"
> 
> ...


Yeah, I would be scared to say that. But would surely make myself do it, anyway.

Transparency.


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## _anonymous_ (Apr 18, 2016)

I would want to know if the "she" was once a "he". That's pretty important, but in all fairness, perhaps it would be pretty obvious (Kaitin Jenner, for example).


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

jld said:


> Sexual, financial, health history, for starters.
> 
> Honestly, I expect to be told everything. I myself certainly do not hold back.


Fair enough. But, you have nothing to hide...that makes a big difference on being open, Eh?

What if you found out your husband was in a Male Stripper Review.

Not the "Chippendale's", maybe a group less famous... the "Stripping Dudes", or something?

And you found out some of the members of his group had private showings, lap dances and other activities....................

And this had happened five years ago. And he omitted telling you. What is your short term response? Your long term response?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> Fair enough. But, you have nothing to hide...that makes a big difference on being open, Eh?
> 
> What if you found out your husband was in a Male Stripper Review.
> 
> ...


I am not proud of everything in my past, Sun. And I shared that with Dug right away when we first got together.

He did not have any skeletons. If he were to come up with some now . . . Oh, well. We are 24 years in with 5 children. Neither of us is going anywhere.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> I would want to know about any past and/or present criminal history. And that's whether or not they were caught by the police and prosecuted or not. Definitely would want to know about any previous sex crimes. I would also want to know if they were a sex worker and the circumstances. And knowing all of this, I would weight it with who they were today and how they treat me. I would want to know about mental and physical health problems.
> 
> I believe very strongly that a person can change. People do it all the time. But I would want to now as much about them as I could.
> 
> The problem that people have with sharing this sort of personal information is *that a lot of times, their partner will use it against them.* So it is a very scary prospect to share about some things.


Amen, Dear!

When a partner is angry at you, they grab the Arrow Quiver. They will grab and fire whatever arrows come to hand, to mind.

All's fair in Love and War.....NOT!

I prefer keeping secrets. Being an honest blabbing Sagittarius, I have few.

The ones I keep are sealed in concrete, thrown overboard and are now resting in the Medina Deep. 

Only a Deep "See" diver will know of their existence. 

I hope!


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

jld said:


> I am not proud of everything in my past, Sun. And I shared that with Dug right away when we first got together.
> 
> He did not have any skeletons. If he were to come up with some now . . . Oh, well. We are 24 years in with 5 children. Neither of us is going anywhere.


Good answer, Dear!


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

One of the big issues that often comes up after a marriage is Childhood Sexual Abuse. Few people discuss that before marriage. Few people expect that to have been discussed before marriage.

I can't understand how anyone could feel it was some sort of insult or lie by omission if a spouse did leave out incidents of Childhood Sexual Abuse.

During counseling such things may come out, for instance. Why would it be correct to then heap blame for lying on the spouse who just had to reveal that horror? Why is it necessary for someone to reveal that to a potential spouse if someone is not comfortable doing so?

I suppose I'm just comfortable living with my wife as she is, in the moment.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I simply don't care about my partner's past if it doesn't directly affect me.


This is actually why it is important to discuss this stuff, to find out if it will affect you and your partner. For some this kind of stuff does affect them because it affects the perception that they have of their partner. It has to do with what they value in a mate and if your values are on the same page. There is nothing inherently wrong with that. In a sense being honest and open is self preservation because if you are someone who doesn't think one thing is a bid deal you are better suited to be with a person who feels the same way. For others, some things are just a bridge too far. If you don't talk about it assuming someone knows about your past there is always a chance it's going to come up. Now you have a lie of omission, or a lack of transparency which is not good for a relationship because it breeds distrust. 

In the case such as sex work for example what the "your past is your past, it's your life no one should judge" crowed always fails to explain is that, doing this kind of work is either

1. Going to decrees the overall dating pool of potential mates you will have available to you. 

or 

2. Require you to be dishonest and inauthentic about your life. Therefore hurting the foundation that your relationship is built on. 

Those are some pretty big sacrifices to make just so you are not in debt,. If you really think about it, it's really transferring one loss of control for another. In the money case you lose the control over part of your finances or the freedom that having money in your pocket brings, for a time at least. For the other you lost control over either your narrative, if you are choosing to hide or lie about your past, you no longer can live your life authentically. If you choose to be authentic you lose control over your potential matting pool to a certain extent. 

Again I think if you are the kind of person who doesn't think that sex work is a big deal is unashamed about it then the lost of potential mates is not a big deal because you won't want those mates anyway, most likely. Unless you happen to meet someone whom you just fall in love with and that still is a bridge to far. For some this is a moral issue and they won't be able to just forget about it. This creates lots of conflict. There is also the potential of having to tell your kids, that doesn't seem like an easy thing to do. They may not feel the same way you do about the type of work. Not something you think about when you are young. 

Even the person doing the work may not feel the same way in their late teens and early twenties when they are older. People tend to change and usually get more conservative as they age.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> One of the big issues that often comes up after a marriage is Childhood Sexual Abuse. Few people discuss that before marriage. Few people expect that to have been discussed before marriage.
> 
> I can't understand how anyone could feel it was some sort of insult or lie by omission if a spouse did leave out incidents of Childhood Sexual Abuse.
> 
> ...



I agree heaping blame is totally wrong but CSA seems to be a common trigger to lots of emotional and sexual problems that person's adult relationships. This is one of the many sad facts of why CSA is such an a abomination. The following example is not exactly the same, but say someone gets a sexual transmitted disease through innocent sexual contact with a past partner. Is it important to tell any future partner of this fact even if it is difficult and painful? Most in society would say yes you have a requirement to disclose this fact because you are potentially exposing your future partner to sickness or physical trauma. 

In the same way CSA has the potential to expose ones future partner to sickness or emotional trauma, doesn't always happen but it is also not uncommon. There is an inherent risk. I think in your other post you talk about how your wife doesn't tell the truth. (That's you right?) Now she is fortunately that she found someone who is willing to sacrifice and even capable to live the life that that requires. In a sense she got lucky. Not everyone would be willing to live like that even if they greatly loved the person. Again this is very sad because the person who was abused was an innocent child at the time. But the same could be said for the person with the STD. 

If I was in your situation I know I could not live life having to monitor and verify everything my spouse said to me. Frankly it would just be too painful. I would try to have as much compassion as I could because of the fact that it's really not her fault that she is like that, but I know living my life like that would eventually end my quality of life to such a point that I don't think the marriage would survive. That's me, luckily for both of you it's not you. Now say this potential mate told me about the CSA before the lifetime commitment was made. At the very least the pain of being lied to could have been somewhat muted or at least anticipated. If the relationship ended we would probably have not gotten to the point where the pain of losing the relationship would be on the same level of losing ones marriage, with the loss of kids, property, and all the hurt feelings that go along with it. So again, being honest is really protecting oneself and part of the screening of a potential mate. 

This is why I say even if you have CSA and it is very difficult to talk about it, assuming you are not unconsciously suppressing it, you need to talk about it. I would say the same for a history of depression or any other mental illness one suffers from. It's no different then any other kind of disease that one suffers from. The bottom line is life is not fair.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

WilliamM said:


> One of the big issues that often comes up after a marriage is Childhood Sexual Abuse. Few people discuss that before marriage. Few people expect that to have been discussed before marriage.
> 
> I can't understand how anyone could feel it was some sort of insult or lie by omission if a spouse did leave out incidents of Childhood Sexual Abuse.
> 
> ...


My wife hid her CSA from me. It turns out that her part of the marital dysfunction is due to CSA. I spent years, decades even, trying to fix something which could not be fixed. A person cannot overcome CSA without good therapy and a lot of hard work. I could not do enough chores, be cheerful enough, make enough money, or do enough home improvement projects to overcome her CSA. I could not stay in good enough shape to overcome her aversion to sex.

By keeping her CSA from me, she eliminated my ability to seek an effective solution to our serious marital problems.

In truth, for many people CSA causes serious emotional and sexual problems. And thus it is something which should be revealed. Just as a serious hidden medical condition should be revealed, or a history of serious emotional disturbances. 

A person has the right to make a fully informed decision about whom to marry. My ex-W kept this information from me so as to prevent me from deciding to leave the relationship. Isn't that the bottom line? People feel uncomfortable about something, so they hide it in order to get the outcome they want. They intentionally manipulate the other person.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Thor said:


> My wife hid her CSA from me. It turns out that her part of the marital dysfunction is due to CSA. I spent years, decades even, trying to fix something which could not be fixed. A person cannot overcome CSA without good therapy and a lot of hard work. I could not do enough chores, be cheerful enough, make enough money, or do enough home improvement projects to overcome her CSA. I could not stay in good enough shape to overcome her aversion to sex.
> 
> By keeping her CSA from me, she eliminated my ability to seek an effective solution to our serious marital problems.
> 
> ...


Sadly she also cheated herself out of potentially fixing the marriage and having a husband who could have helped her in a loving way with the issues. That takes some real courage though, so who can blame her. She was robbed too, by the ******* who abused her. You both were.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

The problem that I see is that often a couple does not discuss all that much about the past when they date. Then after marriage, something might come up that brings the past forward. We had that here this week with the young woman whose 'friend' was blackmailing her about her past as a stripper and webcam girl. 

If her husband never asked her about any dark secretes, or such things, I'm not sure that she lied by omission. Do we really expect the people we date & marry to just give us an inventory of their lives? If a person cares about this stuff, they need to ask.

When I dated someone seriously, I made sure I knew their friends and family. I did a background check and I did tell them that I did. And then I point blank asked them about criminal records, problems in previous relationships, etc. Not as an interrogation, but in discussion where I too shared things about my past.

One thing I have never asked, or been asked, is the number of sex partners, or about any ONS. I think that exact numbers are stupid. I've seen people start threads on TAM because their wife/gf told them that she had sex with 10 guys. And now she's saying that it was 11 guys... so now she's a liar and a ****. Come on, that's ridiculous.

Of course people can care all they want about anything, but if it's a big deal to you, ask the person you are dating about what you think you need to know about them. Or better yet, tell them your limits up front. "I will not have a serious relationship with a woman who had sex with more than 5 people; or who was a stripper; or who had sex outside of a committed relationship.

If you know that you have some boundaries, like "I will not date someone who was a drug addict, ever." Just tell them that up front. If they were a drug addict you will probably never hear from them again. And they did not have to bear their soul to you and then have you step on it.

If you never asked a person about a particular thing or let them know your stance on something, it's not a lie by omission if they don't tell you about things in their past. 

And even with all that I ended up with husbands who were abusive, cheated, lied, etc. What mattered the most was not their past, it was how they treated me. And that we pretty ugly. Of course they did not start treating my badly until after we married.


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## jb02157 (Apr 16, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I am an honest open person and I would expect any partner to be the same. Things such as they used to be a stripper, or their relationship past, or if they were made bankrupt or are a porn user etc etc, all are important things to know before marriage.


My concern would be that if you are open and honest about your past but your spouse isn't honest about their's.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Sadly she also cheated herself out of potentially fixing the marriage and having a husband who could have helped her in a loving way with the issues. That takes some real courage though, so who can blame her. She was robbed too, by the ******* who abused her. You both were.


Yes, the Secondary Survivor is also abused by the scum who abused the child years earlier.

It does take courage to come forward, but at some point an adult must do the adult thing. When we first met at age 19 she probably had no idea there were serious future ramifications. When she graduated with a bachelor's degree in psychology should she have known then? When she earned her Masters in psychology? When she earned her Ph.D. in psychology?

Should she have known there was a problem when she started having great emotional difficulty with sex immediately after the wedding? When she had nightmares after the first baby was born should she have made the connection? How about when she was having daily rages at me at that time? How about when I begged her to go to MC with me, should she have realized it was time to admit there was something she needed to deal with?

When she saw me reading self improvement books and relationship books, and when I'd try to have relationship discussions with her, might she have stepped up and admitted there was something on her side of the situation which was a contributing factor?

I give the teen who has no idea of the future ramifications a slight pass. I understand how her upbringing has led to keeping this a secret. It is wrong to knowingly keep information secret when you believe the other person would choose to leave the relationship, and that is what the young woman is doing. But I understand how she gets to this mindset.

This same mindset, though, permeates her paradigm dealing with the world. Appear one way outwardly, but hide (omit) important information to get what you want. My ex-W kept many secrets. She committed many lies and deceptions. The young child learns this paradigm at a young age.

I personally know a number of women who did inform their fiance before marriage of CSA, or who upon realizing they had a problem after marriage then revealed it to their husband. That's the responsible honest thing to do.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Spicy said:


> I also would want to know as much as possible. Making a life together is a huge commitment.
> 
> I think our inner conscience is pretty good about telling us what things most potentional spouses would want/need to know. When something huge has been omitted, it is a piece that is looming over the one marriage mate, and essentially keeping them from being as close to their spouse as they could be if that wasn't there.
> 
> Between my husband and I, he definitely would care WAY less than me about things in the past. Not much seems to ruffle his feathers, whereas I am more sensitive about those types of things.


I think that if we are not telling them things that are very important, then we are marrying them under false pretenses.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

There is a world of difference between revealing issues beforehand and dealing with issues in the here and now. If a woman who was assaulted when she was nine years old and could never tell or she would be whipped for lying gets help and finds a resolution that works I don't need to strike more fear into her heart because she can't open up to me about it. 

All I need is for her to be better in the here and now. 

I would have hoped that's really all anyone really wanted of the people they love. 

Because of my wife's particular problem I will never know the "truth". I only know one thing for sure. She loves me. She runs to me, hugs me tight, and kisses me endlessly every day when I get home, no matter when I get home, mid day or midnight. She cares for my every need. She's the laughter in my life. 

I will never ask her what happened. If she wants me to know she will tell me. She tells me one sentence here and there. It's on her schedule. Whatever she tells me, or does not tell me, it will not cause a problem.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

It's been said before. Abusers play the long game. Mary was a bastard child raised by a single mom. A friend helped her mom teach Mary to always tell the truth. After three years of beating Mary into silence, she was ripe for plucking, at nine years old.

That's what I've pieced together. Mary doesn't really like me to mention it, but is okay this once. It makes me hurt to even think... So, enough of that. 

Mary is happy now, and says don't rock the boat.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

WilliamM said:


> It's been said before. Abusers play the long game. Mary was a bastard child raised by a single mom. A friend helped her mom teach Mary to always tell the truth. After three years of beating Mary into silence, she was ripe for plucking, at nine years old.




So sorry, William.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> Because of my wife's particular problem I will never know the "truth". I only know one thing for sure. She loves me. She runs to me, hugs me tight, and kisses me endlessly every day when I get home, no matter when I get home, mid day or midnight. She cares for my every need. She's the laughter in my life.


That would make it easier for sure. Please understand I am not judging your wife or you, I actually understand some of this as I was very close to someone who was sexual assaulted, kind of walked in on the end of it. So I get it. I am just saying from my personal experience with lies and the need to feel safe in my home are a huge part of what makes me content in my marriage. This has a lot to do with my upbringing, so whether if the lying is done out of malice or brokenness, it would just be to much of a trigger for me. Your wife is lucky she found you.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> That would make it easier for sure. Please understand I am not judging your wife or you, I actually understand some of this as I was very close to someone who was sexual assaulted, kind of walked in on the end of it. So I get it. I am just saying from my personal experience with lies and the need to feel safe in my home are a huge part of what makes me content in my marriage. This has a lot to do with my upbringing, so whether if the lying is done out of malice or brokenness, it would just be to much of a trigger for me. Your wife is lucky she found you.


What details beside the fact that she was abused would you need from a woman who was abused as a child? What must she divulge to you to make you feel like she's not lying to you?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> What details beside the fact that she was abused would you need from a woman who was abused as a child? What must she divulge to you to make you feel like she's not lying to you?


If she is in IC. If I was going to marry her I would want to go to a few IC session with her. Talk to the IC about what to expect when it comes to our marriage. What books I could read to be and effective husband to someone who had suffered so. If she wasn't in IC it would have to be a requirement for me to marry her. Sorry but it's too much of a risk. I would go with her at first to support her if necessary. But her treatment once married would become in someways our treatment. 

I would try to earn, but I would also expect if we were to get married that we would talk about these things openly. I would ask her to promises me that she gives me a chance and challenges her fears to let me be the one person in her life that she trust with them. I don't need or want to know the gory details but if it is helpful to her to tell me then I would suffer to hear them. I would also understand that that is a monumental honor and the responsibility is huge. 

My take would be, look there are probably things that we don't even know that are going to come up because of this, and because of that it's even more important that you and I are open about it. Meaning for instance if physical intimacy gets hard because we are now married as is known to happen you have to at least let me know that you know that isn't how it should be. You have to promise me now that you and I are going to work on it together. That would be why I would want to talk to the IC. To be proactive. I would also be honest and say that if you decide not to work on it then there is the possibility that the marriage won't last. 

It is a risk, but it doesn't have to be a deal breaker. A lot of the risk depends on how introspective the person is. How much of a sense they have that some of their thinking is not correct and is really a result of trauma. That would be part of what I would be trying to determine. 

Do these things seem ominous to you?

As far as the quoted posters life, he lives never knowing if his wife is telling the truth. His wife is a pathological liar. He says so himself. That is a very hard way to live.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

WilliamM said:


> There is a world of difference between revealing issues beforehand and dealing with issues in the here and now. If a woman who was assaulted when she was nine years old and could never tell or she would be whipped for lying gets help and finds a resolution that works I don't need to strike more fear into her heart because she can't open up to me about it.
> 
> All I need is for her to be better in the here and now.
> 
> ...


Ok, there is a yuuuuge difference between revealing the fact the abuse occurred vs giving details of the abuse events themselves. The victim does not have to give details of what happened unless it is helpful to them to do so.

One caveat is they should reveal who the abuser was if it is someone who may be involved in the family or children's lives in the future. A husband has the right to know to be able to keep his own kids away from the abuser. I know a woman who did not reveal to her husband she had been abused by her step-father, and then years later he abused the step-grandkids!

Knowledge that the CSA exists is what is important to have.


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## Hope1964 (Sep 26, 2011)

I can't really give a whole list of things, because what I'd want to know is gonna depend on so many things.

For example, I couldn't care less if you called up a phone sex line a couple of times while you were in college. UNLESS it's part of a pattern. If you also use a lot of porn and have a masturbation schedule and little actual real-life sex and go to strip clubs then I am seeing a pattern I don't really like.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

When someone says they are willing to listen, the question arises: are they willing to listen to stillness. 

I still think people confuse the past and present. 

I don't know who abused her. Mary assured me no one we know would ever go near him. That I was willing to believe. It was fairly easy to believe, considering we had almost no contact with her family after I married her. Our children never visited. 

We control the present, or hope to. 

Yes, it's called pathological lying by the shrinks. They offered no cure. Only control measures. 

So, I control her. I often wonder what she would have been like if she hadn't been damaged. I'm glad I didn't know about her problems before I married her, because I can't imagine a better wife.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

I've said several times counseling helps. It did help Mary tremendously. I see the pain and anger we went through in many posts here. Mary's shrinks turned everything around. 

It took 8 years of professional help. It's a long slow process. Certainly not everything is fixed. But enough. We have fun together. 

Yes, Mary used to have problems with sex. She also had panic attacks almost daily. It turned out the two were related, and that was solved. Mary turned into my little sex dynamo. 

Professional psychiatric help can work for some things. I'm really glad I was patient. 

Anyway. There was no way she could have shared any of her past with me before we got married, and I don't care at all.


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## Spicy (Jun 18, 2016)

I want to say, I am NOT referring to abuse. I'm referring to things that were the persons choice, such as taking a job as a stripper or a sex worker or the like. 

Also, I asked my husband, and he said nope it wouldn't matter to him if I had been a stripper or a webcam girl before we met. So there you go, he wouldn't care to know. I would.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

uhtred said:


> In some threads people have talked about lies by omission where someone doesn't tell things about their sexual past - say that they worked as a stripper.
> 
> What things would you expect to be told about a partner's past?


Only what matters. That's not easy to identify, though.

I want to make sure we all understand what a "lie" is. This is a description that can be found in the Bhaghavad Gita - the first book of Hinduism - the Bible, the works of Plato, the US laws related to perjury, etc. In other words, this isn't a modern new-age definition, it's an old one that stands the test of time.

In order for something to be a lie it must satisfy all three criteria:

1) The person must be stating something untrue, or withholding something true, under conditions that they would be expected to be sharing it.
2) The person must know that they are actually stating an untruth or witholding...this may seem silly but if you ask me what temperature it is, I'll glance outside at the thermometer and tell you its reading. if the thermometer is inacurate, then I have told you an untruth, but I didn't know I was telling an untruth.
3) This one is critical - the PURPOSE for the person telling the untruth, or withholding the truth, is for the express purpose of taking UNFAIR advantage of you or of an organization.

So, if someone failed to tell me things in their sexual past, but it was their opinion that I'm probably better off not knowing - it's not a lie. I might differ in opinion from them, but that's the sort of "we're both indivudals" differences you have to be OK with in order to function in society.


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## Wolf1974 (Feb 19, 2014)

My expectation is to know everything I find relevant about a partners past. I also am an open book and while I made mistakes I have very few regrets. Always happy to dsicolse anything they might want to know.

Lies of omission can be a tricky thing. If you didn't disclose something because you just didn't think it was a big deal than that's one thing. Very different to know your SO would be mortified and so you hide something by ommison. That could be grounds for divorce,same as deliberate lying, depending on circumstances.

I would also add that this should all be disclosed BEFORE marriage or serious commitment. If your with someone who doesn't agree with your past/uses it against you then you should know that prior. Not telling for fear of it is wrong.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

DustyDog said:


> if someone failed to tell me things in their sexual past, but it was their opinion that I'm probably better off not knowing - it's not a lie. I might differ in opinion from them, but that's the sort of "we're both indivudals" differences you have to be OK with in order to function in society.


This is kind of a slippery slope though because the idea of better off not knowing can be for anything. I would not agree that I am better off not knowing someone I was potentially marring was a prostitute for instance. Though the person who was a prostitute may feel like they are saving me from pain and jealous, as is ridiculously given as a justification at times when things like this are hidden. 

Is this also a justification lots of cheaters who have stopped cheating give for not telling their BS?

Nope as long as you get to decide whether I am better off not knowing you have a form of power over me. That is unfair and wrong. Everyone has the right to make an informed decision.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Thor said:


> Ok, there is a yuuuuge difference between revealing the fact the abuse occurred vs giving details of the abuse events themselves. The victim does not have to give details of what happened unless it is helpful to them to do so.
> 
> One caveat is they should reveal who the abuser was if it is someone who may be involved in the family or children's lives in the future. A husband has the right to know to be able to keep his own kids away from the abuser. I know a woman who did not reveal to her husband she had been abused by her step-father, and then years later he abused the step-grandkids!
> 
> Knowledge that the CSA exists is what is important to have.


Yes that happened with a lady I heard of, her father abused her and then went on to abuse her daughter. I mean what was she thinking allowing this to happen to her own daughter?????


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

WilliamM said:


> When someone says they are willing to listen, the question arises: are they willing to listen to stillness.
> 
> I still think people confuse the past and present.
> 
> ...


I hope that the man is not free to carry on abusing other children.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> I hope that the man is not free to carry on abusing other children.


This is what happened with the teacher at our school who got my sister pregnant when she was in junior high. Just went on to exploit other kids at a different school.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

jld said:


> This is what happened with the teacher at our school who got my sister pregnant when she was in junior high. Just went on to exploit other kids at a different school.


They will just carry on until they are reported and locked away. Especially when they are in contact with children all the time as that teacher was you mentioned. How awful for your sister. :crying:


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> They will just carry on until they are reported and locked away. Especially when they are in contact with children all the time as that teacher was you mentioned. How awful for your sister. :crying:


It was terrible. I am not sure she will ever be healed.

She is 54, btw. A lifetime stolen.


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## WilliamM (Mar 14, 2017)

In my wife's case the abuse started in 1964. No idea when it ended. It came to light, if I remember right, in 1982. And she only told me that it happened. Not who, or where. There is not a snowballs chance in hell she would ever have told a court anything. She does not talk about it.

People can go on all they want about that meaning the perpetrator gets away to harm others. If a victim does not want to face the further horror of public disclosure and scrutiny, I can understand. She wasn't going to be one to step up and say anything. She made sure no one we knew ever went near whoever it was. She did all she could bring herself to do. I will not slight her.

I congratulate all the women who do step up and point at the men who abused them when they were children. But Mary isn't one of those women. People can spew all their moralistic crap on her they want. I won't. Very few victims of child sexual assault ever name the perpetrator of the assault. The current opinion is between 10 and 30 percent of victims ever report the crime. The younger they were at the time of the assault the less likely to report. 

I can see why she thinks it is unwise to ever mention it.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

jld said:


> It was terrible. I am not sure she will ever be healed.
> 
> She is 54, btw. A lifetime stolen.


There are three people in my family who were sexually abused by their father. They have done really well considering. One happily married, another in a happy 11 year relationship, all lovely people. As one said, he ruined my childhood, I am not going to let him ruin the rest of my life.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Respect, honesty, and integrity are very important in a relationship, perhaps just as important as love and sexual compatibility. Instead of letting the other person exhaust a long list of questions to narrow down a specific issue, why not just come out and tell them? The knowledge of those things could impact a major, life-altering decision for them, so shouldn't they have the right to know?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Do these things seem ominous to you?


NO.

But do keep in mind that not every person who experiences CSA is a basket case who needs a lot of counseling and needs their spouse to hover over them because they were abused.

The same goes for other traumas, such a rape, witnessing horrible crimes, living through disasters, war, etc. There are so many things that can seriously traumatize people. Yet somehow, a large percentage are able to handle it and not have it affect their lives all that much.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

becareful2 said:


> Respect, honesty, and integrity are very important in a relationship, perhaps just as important as love and sexual compatibility. Instead of letting the other person exhaust a long list of questions to narrow down a specific issue, why not just come out and tell them? The knowledge of those things could impact a major, life-altering decision for them, so shouldn't they have the right to know?


Absolutely. If I cant be honest and open with the man I marry something is wrong. Secrets have no place in a marriage. 
Trust comes by being honest with each other. 
Finding out something important later that you weren't told can badly shake that trust or even destroy it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

becareful2 said:


> Respect, honesty, and integrity are very important in a relationship, perhaps just as important as love and sexual compatibility. Instead of letting the other person exhaust a long list of questions to narrow down a specific issue, why not just come out and tell them? The knowledge of those things could impact a major, life-altering decision for them, so shouldn't they have the right to know?


The problem is that what matters to one person might now matter to another. How do we guess what should be told?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> NO.
> 
> But do keep in mind that not every person who experiences CSA is a basket case who needs a lot of counseling and needs their spouse to hover over them because they were abused.
> 
> The same goes for other traumas, such a rape, witnessing horrible crimes, living through disasters, war, etc. There are so many things that can seriously traumatize people. Yet somehow, a large percentage are able to handle it and not have it affect their lives all that much.


Which is why I would want to talk to an IC.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> The problem is that what matters to one person might now matter to another. How do we guess what should be told?


If we are generally open and honest, don't hide anything and answer any questions truthfully then I don't think that will be an issue.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> *The problem is that what matters to one person might not matter to another.* How do we guess what should be told?



Tell them anyway and let them decide for themselves. If it has to do with morality, religion (hey, I used to belong to a cult), legality, abuse, finance, health, etc. That's what the dating period is for. Let's take two open-minded people and let's suppose that before they got married, the husband had a fling with someone (a next door neighbor, a boss, a friend of his wife, a well known person that his wife hates with a passion, etc). The wife would meet this former partner but had no clue whatsoever, and the husband never said anything since his wife was so open-minded, sexually liberated, and not the jealous type. Well, it turns out that the wife does care but just never thought to ask her husband, "Hey, hubby, did you ever sleep with our next door neighbor?"

Another example would be if the bride-to-be's husband's family was a respected member of the community. He thought she was a good girl with a good upbringing but just about all good girls had their rebellious period. Should she tell him out of respect for him and his family? I think so. "Hey, babe, I love you and I respect your family a lot, and I need to tell you about some things in my past. I was not always so proper and mature as I am now. Back then, I did xyz, and there may or may not be evidence of that on the internet. If you or your family have political aspirations later on, it could come out with a little digging. To me, it's not a big deal but it could be a big deal to you or your family, and if that is the case, you need to let me know now so we can part ways amicably."


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

I posted my story here a while back. Wife said she was a virgin , (as was I), in pastor's office.
Said she only dated casually in high school. She started triggering after marriage.
Turns out she dated abusive football jock for 4 years and got engaged in high school.
By not knowing this, when she triggered, I thought she was reacting to me. It built up tension & hard feelings between us.
We are finally having a good sex life many years later.

So much pain could have been avoided or dealt with.

I know of a guy that was sterile, blatantly told his fiancee that he couldn't wait to have kids, knowing he was sterile.
5 years in, he was hoping she would still stick with him when she found out the truth.

Honesty in all areas. Whether it be past relationships, health, finances.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I posted my story here a while back. Wife said she was a virgin , (as was I), in pastor's office.
> Said she only dated casually in high school. She started triggering after marriage.
> Turns out she dated abusive football jock for 4 years and got engaged in high school.
> By not knowing this, when she triggered, I thought she was reacting to me. It built up tension & hard feelings between us.
> ...


Is the sterile guy still married to his wife?


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

becareful2 said:


> Is the sterile guy still married to his wife?


No.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> If we are generally open and honest, don't hide anything and answer any questions truthfully then I don't think that will be an issue.


The assumption here seems to be that if a person does not tell their spouse something they are hiding it, lying, not being honest, etc. That's not necessarily the case. 

Years before I met my husband I was raped. He never asked if I had been raped. I never asked him if he had been raped either. It never came up. But my take on some of these posts here is that some here would want to drag me down to an IC, have me evaluated and have the IC tell them if I pass some sort of inspection.

Years before I met my husband some guy tried to kill me. He never asked if anyone tried to kill me. Murder never came up.

I was single for a long time, so I dated a lot of guys. Had sex with some of them. He never asked. It never came up. According to some on here, that is me lying by omission. 

According to some here, the fact that I did not sit him down and give him a list of all the above (and a lot more), with gory details, means that I lied by omission.

I agree that people should be honest with their spouse. But what does that mean? Does it mean that we must come up with a list of every stupid thing we ever did, ever bad thing that happened to us, and then make sure that we divulge everything? Because if we don’t do that, we might just miss the one thing that is important to them and the will later be used to accuse us of lying by omission. Of course even if we do that, we might forget about something that we later remember and then if they found out we are lying by omission. 

Or do we talk about things as they come up. And if they are not important enough that one of us brings them up, then they are just left alone.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

becareful2 said:


> Tell them anyway and let them decide for themselves. If it has to do with morality, religion (hey, I used to belong to a cult), legality, abuse, finance, health, etc. That's what the dating period is for. Let's take two open-minded people and let's suppose that before they got married, the husband had a fling with someone (a next door neighbor, a boss, a friend of his wife, a well known person that his wife hates with a passion, etc). The wife would meet this former partner but had no clue whatsoever, and the husband never said anything since his wife was so open-minded, sexually liberated, and not the jealous type. Well, it turns out that the wife does care but just never thought to ask her husband, "Hey, hubby, did you ever sleep with our next door neighbor?"
> 
> Another example would be if the bride-to-be's husband's family was a respected member of the community. He thought she was a good girl with a good upbringing but just about all good girls had their rebellious period. Should she tell him out of respect for him and his family? I think so. "Hey, babe, I love you and I respect your family a lot, and I need to tell you about some things in my past. I was not always so proper and mature as I am now. Back then, I did xyz, and there may or may not be evidence of that on the internet. If you or your family have political aspirations later on, it could come out with a little digging. To me, it's not a big deal but it could be a big deal to you or your family, and if that is the case, you need to let me know now so we can part ways amicably."


And what if they know that there is no evidence on the internet? Most people don't have that sort of thing to deal with.


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## chillymorn69 (Jun 27, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> If we are generally open and honest, don't hide anything and answer any questions truthfully then I don't think that will be an issue.


What about abortion should a women confess she had an abortion. Before marriage


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

chillymorn69 said:


> What about abortion should a women confess she had an abortion. Before marriage


I certainly would. I would not take the risk of hiding anything before something as important as marriage.


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## FrazzledSadHusband (Jul 3, 2014)

EleGirl said:


> The assumption here seems to be that if a person does not tell their spouse something they are hiding it, lying, not being honest, etc. That's not necessarily the case.
> 
> Years before I met my husband I was raped. He never asked if I had been raped. I never asked him if he had been raped either. It never came up. But my take on some of these posts here is that some here would want to drag me down to an IC, have me evaluated and have the IC tell them if I pass some sort of inspection.
> 
> ...


EleGirl - If you were sitting in a pastor's office and the question was asked, "Is there anything in either or your pasts that could effect the intimate relationship between you two? Any type of abuse?" 

That's a pretty direct question. How would you answer? For me, the bigger problem was when it came out into the open, and my wife could see that her past abuse was affecting how she treated me, she was unwilling to seek counselling.

One more, while dating my wife asked how many girls I had dated, how long, and who they were.
I told her everything. I asked her the same question, since she asked me. Her answer was not what came out later.

We all make mistakes, and wish we could change something in our past.

It's when we let the past f--- up our present, make a mess of our current relationship, that's the problem.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

FrazzledSadHusband said:


> I posted my story here a while back. Wife said she was a virgin , (as was I), in pastor's office.
> Said she only dated casually in high school. She started triggering after marriage.
> Turns out she dated abusive football jock for 4 years and got engaged in high school.
> By not knowing this, when she triggered, I thought she was reacting to me. It built up tension & hard feelings between us.
> ...


Those were both very big lies that should have been said before marriage.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

chillymorn69 said:


> What about abortion should a women confess she had an abortion. Before marriage


Absolutely, that is a massive thing not to tell a future spouse. It may well affect any future chances of having children and the mental health of the wife later on.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

I am only interested in the person as they are now and totally don't care about any past issues or activities unless they are still an issue and affecting life now. Too many questions and digging about my past is a huge red flag of insecurity to me and I move on.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

2&out said:


> I am only interested in the person as they are now and totally don't care about any past issues or activities unless they are still an issue and affecting life now. Too many questions and digging about my past is a huge red flag of insecurity to me and I move on.


The past makes us what we are and does affect the here and now. If a man wasn't prepared to answer important questions that would be a massive red flag to me.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> The assumption here seems to be that if a person does not tell their spouse something they are hiding it, lying, not being honest, etc. That's not necessarily the case.
> 
> Years before I met my husband I was raped. He never asked if I had been raped. I never asked him if he had been raped either. It never came up. But my take on some of these posts here is that some here would want to drag me down to an IC, have me evaluated and have the IC tell them if I pass some sort of inspection.
> 
> ...


Ele, you have been married and divorced 3 times, correct? I think you said your first husband died after you divorced him, but the other two are still living.

Don't you think some of those marriages and subsequent divorces could have been avoided if you had been completely transparent with those men, whether they requested that transparency or not?

Wouldn't complete transparency, even if unrequested by them, but initiated by you, have avoided a lot of heartache for you?

And if you had not felt you could trust them enough to be transparent with them, wouldn't that have been an indication they were not the man for you?

I was transparent from the beginning of my relationship with my husband. Why? Because I was in a relationship right before him that involved a lot of dishonesty. And I was not about to go through that again. I could not stand the pain.

My husband could have left me right away, or at any time, if he could not handle my transparency. And neither of us would have been any worse off. I would have avoided any inability on his part to hear my past, and he would have avoided having to deal with my less than flawless history.

Transparency in relationships is not about judging someone, or "hauling them off to counseling," or calling them a "basket case." It is about getting to truth, and seeing how much of it we can handle before we can responsibly make a commitment.

Everyone deserves to be loved and accepted in marriage. Denying ourselves the tool of transparency is likely to hinder our happiness.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

*I will only ask or freely divulge information that does - or could - affect our life together or come back from the past to create an issue.* Those would be things that could affect the ability to obtain employment (e.g., a felony, high debt), pass a background check, or get credit (bankruptcy, etc.); experiences that could cause sexual problems (e.g., abuse, rape) unless they have been dealt with and there are no lasting issues that could limit our sexual activity; mental or other illness (e.g., depression, bipolar, alcoholism, etc.) even if being treated successfully; family, friend, or ex issues that could create problems (e.g., a stalking, nasty ex who might do us harm, a manipulative parent, etc.); a serious indiscretion that could lead to future public embarrassment; things that put you on a no-fly list or prevent you from visiting another country, and so on .... Anything like that could affect me (directly or indirectly) and our life, so need to be shared if the relationship is becoming serious. They are things that would affect most peoples' lives and decisions about a relationship. Then there are things that may matter to some people, but not all (and not me) - past number of partners, past atypical sexual acts, and similar things.

Everything else might be nice to know, but isn't essential - a right to privacy is essential, IMO. Other than the kinds of things I listed above, I can judge for myself the character and compatibility of someone as they are now, so don't need to know other stuff.


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## TAM2013 (Jul 15, 2013)

2&out said:


> I am only interested in the person as they are now and totally don't care about any past issues or activities unless they are still an issue and affecting life now. Too many questions and digging about my past is a huge red flag of insecurity to me and I move on.


In my experience, this is a huge red flag that someones running away from themselves, not moving on. I know opinions differ because;



Diana7 said:


> The past makes us what we are and does affect the here and now. If a man wasn't prepared to answer important questions that would be a massive red flag to me.


Agreed. Every ounce of what we are and only they can dig themselves out. The insecurity is not being able to go there.


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## TAM2013 (Jul 15, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Then there are things that may matter to some people, but not all (and not me) - past number of partners, past atypical sexual acts, and similar things.


Degrading gangbangs?


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## TAM2013 (Jul 15, 2013)

....not the 'normal' ones.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TAM2013 said:


> Degrading gangbangs?


Why degrading? Why not a surplus of sexual ecstasy?


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## TAM2013 (Jul 15, 2013)

Married but Happy said:


> Why degrading? Why not a surplus of sexual ecstasy?


What if one of the 'attendees' was a donkey? Now a horse, I can see that. But a donkey?


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

TAM2013 said:


> What if one of the 'attendees' was a donkey? Now a horse, I can see that. But a donkey?


Who are you to want to know? How dare you stand in the way of sexual liberation?!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

TAM2013 said:


> What if one of the 'attendees' was a donkey? Now a horse, I can see that. But a donkey?


<sigh> Really? You want to bring bestiality into the conversation? Are you speaking from experience, or curiosity?


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

DustyDog said:


> In order for something to be a lie it must satisfy all three criteria:
> .
> .
> .
> ...


100% *disagree*. A lie is an intentional untruth. Period. It does not matter if one is trying to obtain unfair advantage or not. Nor is it someone else's place to decide for you what is important to you or what is best for you.

Maybe you like to parse things. The opposite of the truth is, what? It is not Truth. It is falsity, intentionally deceptive. Maybe a lawyer in a specific court case could argue it was not a lie under some specific law, but it is still the opposite of factually true.

It is wrong to omit information such that the receiver does not have a factually true understanding of the situation.


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## 2&out (Apr 16, 2015)

I don't think I'm running away from anything. I'm just not going to explain why I did certain things in the past that have no bearing on anything now. I have done most things right for me in life so far and have virtually no regrets. My biggest regret is associating myself with my second piece of garbage ex wife who deserves no discussion except she was one hot blue eyed natural blond. In my first "career" I travelled extensively doing something fun (and lucrative) and plenty of nice looking women always seemed to be around and available. I wasn't a saint but I took precautions and never got diseased. But I also don't have a "count" - I never kept track - and it's way more than the available digits I have to count with. If that's a problem then I'm not the man for you.

I don't need the details of someone's past to trust and care about them now.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

jb02157 said:


> My concern would be that if you are open and honest about your past but your spouse isn't honest about their's.


He is.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

Diana7 said:


> Yes that happened with a lady I heard of, her father abused her and then went on to abuse her daughter. I mean what was she thinking allowing this to happen to her own daughter?????


Crazy, isn't it?

The situation I know of involved a good friend. She and her sisters were abused by their step-father. Our kids grew up together as best friends. She had very tight controls in place to protect her own kids from him. But, her sister did not, and he abused those kids. He ended up being charged with the sexual abuse. While out on bail he attempted suicide but failed. A headshot that missed being fatal somehow.

How any abuse victim can allow their own children to be alone in the presence of the abuser is unfathomable.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> The assumption here seems to be that if a person does not tell their spouse something they are hiding it, lying, not being honest, etc. That's not necessarily the case.
> 
> Years before I met my husband I was raped. He never asked if I had been raped. I never asked him if he had been raped either. It never came up. But my take on some of these posts here is that some here would want to drag me down to an IC, have me evaluated and have the IC tell them if I pass some sort of inspection.
> 
> ...


Not many people will ask things such as 'were you nearly murdered' because the assumption would be that if something serious like that happened you would have told them, same with a rape. Plus its a rare happening and not something most would even think about. That's different from bringing up every little thing we ever did, those things are BIG things, as is an abortion, or a bankruptcy, or an addiction, past serious relationships etc.

Its not about sitting down and giving a list, its about communicating about important things as you get to know each other. There isn't anything that I would keep from my husband. We more or less knew everything important about each other after a very short time. 
I would be very sad to think that he couldn't be honest enough with me not to tell me he had been raped or nearly murdered, and for us past sexual relationships are important. We both know about them(not much to tell), we both had a previous spouse and know exactly what happened in those marriages and what ended them etc.

My family background is one of lies, abuse, affairs, and deception. Maybe that's why I believe that complete honesty is so vital.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> He never asked. It never came up. According to some on here, that is me lying by omission.
> 
> According to some here, the fact that I did not sit him down and give him a list of all the above (and a lot more), with gory details, means that I lied by omission.
> 
> I agree that people should be honest with their spouse. But what does that mean? Does it mean that we must come up with a list of every stupid thing we ever did, ever bad thing that happened to us, and then make sure that we divulge everything?


It means you make a good faith effort to answer every question fully and honestly. By the time things are getting serious enough to be thinking about maybe becoming engaged, you should have a good idea of what kinds of things are likely to be important to him. So, you should make a good faith effort to reveal anything which he likely would want to know about.

Additionally, one should reveal anything which they know of as a hidden potential future problem. CSA is but one extreme example. Less extreme would be the attempt at killing you. Even if you fully believe there is no latent trauma to deal with, perhaps if the guy is out on the loose it is a potential future problem. Anything which could foreseeably affect your partner in the future is what should be voluntarily revealed. If later in the relationship we become aware of a potential problem, we should then reveal it immediately.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

@EleGirl

My point is not that you "owe" him the truth. It is that, for *your own* future safety and happiness in the marriage, it is wise to be completely transparent as soon as you are seriously dating (meaning with an eye to marriage), if not from the get go. It saves time, and potential heartache, for both people.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm not sure I'd necessarily tell someone if I was the victim of a serious crime. I certainly don't think a woman has to tell people that she was raped or abused.

Abortion may be a big deal to some people, but a completely private issue to others. 






Diana7 said:


> Not many people will ask things such as 'were you nearly murdered' because the assumption would be that if something serious like that happened you would have told them, same with a rape. Plus its a rare happening and not something most would even think about. That's different from bringing up every little thing we ever did, those things are BIG things, as is an abortion, or a bankruptcy, or an addiction, relationships etc.
> Its not about sitting down and giving a list, its about communicating about important things as you get to know each other. There isn't anything that I would keep from my husband. We more or less knew everything important about each other after a very short time.
> I would be very sad to think that he couldn't be honest enough with me not to tell me he had been raped or nearly murdered, and for us past sexual relationships are important. We both know about them(not much to tell), we both have a previous spouse and know exactly what happened in those marriages and what ended them etc.
> 
> My family background is one of lies, abuse, affairs, and deception. Maybe that's why I am such an honest open person and expect that in a partner.


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

Married but Happy said:


> <sigh> The only horse's ass here is you, by bringing bestiality into the conversation. Unless you're speaking from experience?


Careful married,

While his post is in bad taste (and creepy) I'd hate to see you :redcard: for name calling.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I'm not sure I'd necessarily tell someone if I was the victim of a serious crime. I certainly don't think a woman has to tell people that she was raped or abused.
> 
> Abortion may be a big deal to some people, but a completely private issue to others.


That's fine if you don't want to get married, but hiding such massive things from a husband or wife is madness in my opinion. Previous abortions and abuse WILL impact on any future marriage to a greater or lesser extent. 
Can you imagine if a man didn't tell his wife to be that he had a child with another lady? Or that he had been married before? To me things like abortions and rape and how many sexual partners you have had are just a big as those lies/omissions.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

rockon said:


> Careful married,
> 
> While his post is in bad taste (and creepy) I'd hate to see you :redcard: for name calling.


I have known of 2 people(not friends)who were involved in bestiality in their lives. It happens unfortunately.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Thor said:


> 100% *disagree*. A lie is an intentional untruth. Period. It does not matter if one is trying to obtain unfair advantage or not.


You must hate things like movies and novels, then, since they're all fictional works. As are the kinds of books we have kids read when they're learning to read.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I've been married for 30 years and I don't know how many partners my wife had before me, or if she had an abortion. She has never talked about being abused, but I've never asked - I feel that if she wants to tell me she will.

A child with another person does affect the present, so I think that should be discussed. 



Diana7 said:


> That's fine if you don't want to get married, but hiding such massive things from a husband or wife is madness in my opinion. Previous abortions and abuse WILL impact on any future marriage to a greater or lesser extent.
> Can you imagine if a man didn't tell his wife to be that he had a child with another lady? Or that he had been married before? To me things like abortions and rape and how many sexual partners you have had are just a big as those lies/omissions.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

sokillme said:


> This is kind of a slippery slope though because the idea of better off not knowing can be for anything. I would not agree that I am better off not knowing someone I was potentially marring was a prostitute for instance. Though the person who was a prostitute may feel like they are saving me from pain and jealous, as is ridiculously given as a justification at times when things like this are hidden.
> 
> Is this also a justification lots of cheaters who have stopped cheating give for not telling their BS?
> 
> Nope as long as you get to decide whether I am better off not knowing you have a form of power over me. That is unfair and wrong. Everyone has the right to make an informed decision.


I'd say it's a massive slippery slope, not just kind of. But it is what it is - the person giving information DOES get to decide what they think you need to know...it's physically impossible for it to be any other way. So, the two bits of advice from those who claim to offer couples communication information are 1) When deciding what to say, it's usually better to be more inclusive than you might otherwise and 2) If you're the person listening, be more than normally forgiving when things are left out that YOU think you should have heard, but the other person didn't. There's simply no way to explain to someone else all the stuff that's important to you in conversation.

And...nobody really is good at knowing how you think and put things together. My wife talks...and talks...and talks...and as far as I can tell, very few of her sentences are connected to each other at all, and after 15 minutes, I don't know if she's done, just taking a breath, or whether she came to a conclusion.

Most people can hold perhaps 3 to 5 disjoint ideas in their minds at one time. For those of us with ADHD, it's difficult to do even that. So, if a person starts talking, and it's not clear to the listener how sentence #2 connects with sentence #1, you lose the listener pretty quickly. But - to the speaker, they already know that these concepts are connected, so they don't understand the disconnect.

One thing I've noticed - this is a recommendation from books on how to communicate in business environments - "reverse chronological" aka "executive format" seems to be easier to listen to by everybody. You basically begin with a conclusion, then step backwards in time to explain how you got there.

"I went ahead and paid the bill that was in question. I had gotten an agreement that if it turned out to be bad, accounting would refund it. This was after I had...." 

Presenting an explanation of events in normal forward-time chronological sequence is a great way to write a mystery novel, but in normal conversation you don't really want to leave people in suspense very long - they have assigned tasks to do!


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## rockon (May 18, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> I have known of 2 people(not friends)who were involved in bestiality in their lives. It happens unfortunately.


Other than child porn, there is nothing more disgusting than bestiality.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> @EleGirl
> 
> My point is not that you "owe" him the truth. It is that, for *your own* future safety and happiness in the marriage, it is wise to be completely transparent as soon as you are seriously dating (meaning with an eye to marriage), if not from the get go. It saves time, and potential heartache, for both people.


I agree that spouses owe each other the truth.

Clearly I am not communicating what I'm trying to say very well.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

DustyDog said:


> You must hate things like movies and novels, then, since they're all fictional works. As are the kinds of books we have kids read when they're learning to read.


Really? You think I am not aware that most entertainment movies and novels are fictional works?

What would make me upset would be a movie or book which states it is an accurate account of facts but it instead intentionally presents false information or intentionally omits information which skews the audience's understanding to be incorrect. Iow, I would be upset if the producers intentionally lied when they presented themselves as being truthful.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I've been married for 30 years and I don't know how many partners my wife had before me, or if she had an abortion. She has never talked about being abused, but I've never asked - I feel that if she wants to tell me she will.
> 
> A child with another person does affect the present, so I think that should be discussed.


ALL of those things affect the present.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> I agree that spouses owe each other the truth.
> 
> Clearly I am not communicating what I'm trying to say very well.


I'm not really saying that, though. 

To me, being transparent with a future partner is not about "owing" the other person the truth. It is about owing *yourself* the chance to find out if that other person can handle the truth about *you*. You deserve nothing less.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> The assumption here seems to be that if a person does not tell their spouse something they are hiding it, lying, not being honest, etc. That's not necessarily the case.
> 
> Years before I met my husband I was raped. He never asked if I had been raped. I never asked him if he had been raped either. It never came up. But my take on some of these posts here is that some here would want to drag me down to an IC, have me evaluated and have the IC tell them if I pass some sort of inspection.
> 
> ...


I honestly can't imagine asking a person to marry me and not being emotionally close enough to that person where those kind of major events wouldn't just come out. I mean I know about my wife's insecurities in high school. She knows about my grade school stuff. I have a general idea of my wife's prior dating (not too much because I really don't care but I know enough). I know how she lost her virginity and to whom. These conversations weren't please tell me how you lost your virginity they were just long talks. I guess I also never had any jealousy about that which made it easier. I always figured those guys were like the minor leagues and now she was in the majors. Sorry I know I am a cocky bastard sometimes. When we were dating we talked on the phone the first year for hours. I just don't see how the things you just posted wouldn't have come up with me. But maybe you just didn't feel that close or safe with those men to want to tell them. Obviously when the little I know about your situation you were probably wise. 

Personally I would be concerned and a little hurt if those kinds of major life events, the kind that shape you as a human being were not shared with me after a few years of dating. I would hope that after a few years my wife would feel safe enough in my love to be happy to have an ally. I would hope that our friendship and closeness would make it just matter of fact. I don't know maybe I am just more open or whatever. I mean I can think of 2 ex girlfriends who told me they were raped or date raped. They just told me, I wasn't digging. I guess they just felt safe with me. This was a long time ago and I was very young, but I was emotionally intelligent enough that I could see they were hinting at it and it just kind of ended up slowly having them open up about it. 

I don't know? Maybe the people I have seriously dated ended up being very close to me emotionally. Because of that I may have a skewed take.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

chillymorn69 said:


> What about abortion should a women confess she had an abortion. Before marriage


I am not sure why the wouldn't want to. I never get this if the women is the kind that things abortion is just a right like any other why would she want to be married to a guy who thinks abortion is an extinguishing of a life. And visa-versa. I don't get why you would hide it. If he is not cool with it then why would you want him and visa-versa. 

Same goes with politics. I would thing lots of people would not want to start a family with people who didn't vote for their candidate in the last election. Now maybe not the kind who cares that much about politic but if you are. 

Like I could never marry a politician no matter what party. Nope. Couldn't marry a gun manufacturer even though I strongly believe in gun rights. It's to much of a gray area for me. Couldn't marry a pornographer. I would worry to much about marrying a cop. Like shouldn't this stuff be out in the open to weed out some of these kinds of issues right away. Like when you are buying a car you go and eliminate stuff that are just deal breakers first.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

2&out said:


> I am only interested in the person as they are now and totally don't care about any past issues or activities unless they are still an issue and affecting life now. Too many questions and digging about my past is a huge red flag of insecurity to me and I move on.


I don't get seeing this as an insecurity thing. If anything I it would be a red flag for me that you are insecure about your past and don't feel confident enough to be open about it with me after a time. I like people who are brutally honest. I find that very attractive even if it stings sometimes. It's even better when they are funny about it while being honest, maybe not in a mean way but in a cutting way. Man then you got me. Nothing better then a quick, funny brutally honest women. Then we are on the same wave length.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> Ele, you have been married and divorced 3 times, correct? I think you said your first husband died after you divorced him, but the other two are still living.
> 
> Don't you think some of those marriages and subsequent divorces could have been avoided if you had been completely transparent with those men, whether they requested that transparency or not?


No, I don’t think that me being completely transparent (read told them everything that I have ever been through) would have avoided the subsequent divorces. 



jld said:


> Wouldn't complete transparency, even if unrequested by them, but initiated by you, have avoided a lot of heartache for you?


My first husband knew about the murder attempt because it happened outside his apartment about a year before we married. I was 22 when we married.

Let’s look at this…

With my first husband…. Things were pretty good until he suffered an intracranial aneurism and had brain surgery. He suffered brain damage from this. After the surgery, he was a completely different person. Since he could not work anymore, he had a lot of time to hang out and he fell in with some pretty bad people. They gave him speed and it apparently made him feel better somehow. Add speed to brain damage and you get a crazy man… a crazy man who tried to kill me. I left him after that. (So I guess I’ve had two murder attempts… just realized that while typing this). He did die later, after I divorced him. He was not well.

Are you really suggesting that if I had told him about the rape and some other things in my past that he would not have had the medial problems and the brain damage? Are you really suggesting that he would not have tried to kill me? Really?????

Now on to the second husband. I was 35 when we married. Let’s call him Joe. We dated for 5 years. I do not recall telling him about the rape for the murder attempts. I did tell him the basics about my first husband… he had an intracranial aneurism, brain surgery, brain damage and was physically abuse so I divorced him. I did not get into gory details.

After we married, as time went by Joe became very emotionally abusive. It was like the switch flipped shortly after we married. The guy who was a sweet person before we married started turning into an abusive man. So, the short story is that he was emotionally abusive and became physically abusive. About 4 years after we married, he announced that he would never again have sex with me… this in the middle of one of his almost daily screaming, emotional, physical attacks on me. I later found out that he was cheating the entire time we dated and all through our marriage.
Again, are you really suggesting that if I had told Joe about the rape and murder attempts and some other things would have made him not cheat, not be emotionally abusive and not be physically violent? Are you really suggesting that had I just found the one magical little bit of information from my past to tell Joe it would have worked like fairy dust and turned him into Prince Charming? Or maybe the question is, do you really think that complete transparency is the magic dusts that turn a cheating, abusive ass into Prince Charming.

Now on to husband number three. Let’s call him Sam. Sam and I dated for over a year before we married. He was this fun, loving guy who said and did all the right things. I was 50 when we married. So, he moved from the East Coast to NM and we moved into a new house that we built. Sam’s job was to do IT training for a fortune 500 crop so he traveled a lot. That left me at home her in NM working fulltime, and taking care of my son, his two children who he had 100% custody of. But again, it was like a light switch has such off as soon as we married. That fun, loving guy was gone. In his place was a guy who came home and stayed off by himself. Sam did zero to help with even his own kids. And after about 3 years of his very confusing time, I found out that he had been cheating the entire time I knew him. Since he traveled he had perfect cover to have all the girlfriends he wanted in every city he traveled to for his job. Then that company had a major work-wide layoff. Once laid off he spend 24/7 on his computer, played computer games, surfing the web, etc. He would wake up in the morning, go to his home office, close the door and not come out until bedtime…. A very late bedtime. I think he came out for food since he did not die in that office from starvation. But you get the picture.

Again, are you suggesting that since I did not tell Sam about being raped and the murder attempts and every guy I dated and/or had sex with between my first and second husband that I somehow am responsible for Sam’s behavior? You seem to be saying that, if I had been 100% transparent with Sam, the transparency would have been the magic dust that turned him into the fun, loving, caring parent and husband that he pretended to be before we married? You are basically trying to blame me for his actions.

Now I’m not saying that I was little miss prefect in all ways. But I refuse to take responsibility for the manner in which these guys chose to behave. I also 100% reject that idea that had I told any one of them about some things, it would have been the fairy dust that would have turned them into decent humans.

IMHO, my major mistake in marriage is that the man picker is very broken.



jld said:


> And if you had not felt you could trust them enough to be transparent with them, wouldn't that have been an indication they were not the man for you?


You are making the assumption that I did not tell them things about my past because I did not trust them while we were dating, before we married. That’s assumption is not valid. Have you noticed that there are a lot of people on this thread who are saying that they only care about who the person is today? Well that is a very common belief. My not telling them has nothing to do with me not trusting them when I was dating them, before married. I did not tell them because they did not care and it was irrelevant.



jld said:


> I was transparent from the beginning of my relationship with my husband. Why? Because I was in a relationship right before him that involved a lot of dishonesty. And I was not about to go through that again. I could not stand the pain.


I’m glad that worked for you. I get that your telling him about your past was important to you and it makes sense in your relationship. I have never been in any relationship that involved dishonesty on my part. So I would not have anything like this to tell anyone.



jld said:


> My husband could have left me right away, or at any time, if he could not handle my transparency. And neither of us would have been any worse off. I would have avoided any inability on his part to hear my past, and he would have avoided having to deal with my less than flawless history.


I had nothing to confess. So I’m not sure what it is you think I needed to tell.



jld said:


> Transparency in relationships is not about judging someone, or "hauling them off to counseling," or calling them a "basket case." It is about getting to truth, and seeing how much of it we can handle before we can responsibly make a commitment.
> 
> Everyone deserves to be loved and accepted in marriage. Denying ourselves the tool of transparency is likely to hinder our happiness.


If you read this thread, it’s clear that not every agrees that they need a list of all things good and bad in the past is required from their intended. Some choose to trust the other, that if something comes up that will affect the marriage, their spouse will can trust to tell them. And that their spouse can bet trusted to handle info about the past in a loving manner when it becomes pertinent. That’s a different type of intimacy; the type that is born from knowing that your spouse loves you enough to treat you with respect and love no matter what.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

DustyDog said:


> You must hate things like movies and novels, then, since they're all fictional works. As are the kinds of books we have kids read when they're learning to read.


What? You are comparing a work of fiction to intentionally withholding information in a personal relationship? A work of fiction is just that a work of fiction there is nothing personal about it.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

jld said:


> I'm not really saying that, though.
> 
> To me, being transparent with a future partner is not about "owing" the other person the truth. It is about owing *yourself* the chance to find out if that other person can handle the truth about *you*. You deserve nothing less.


Hell has once again frozen over. We completely agree.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Thor said:


> It means you make a good faith effort to answer every question fully and honestly. By the time things are getting serious enough to be thinking about maybe becoming engaged, you should have a good idea of what kinds of things are likely to be important to him. So, you should make a good faith effort to reveal anything which he likely would want to know about.
> 
> Additionally, one should reveal anything which they know of as a hidden potential future problem. CSA is but one extreme example. Less extreme would be the attempt at killing you. Even if you fully believe there is no latent trauma to deal with, perhaps if the guy is out on the loose it is a potential future problem. Anything which could foreseeably affect your partner in the future is what should be voluntarily revealed. If later in the relationship we become aware of a potential problem, we should then reveal it immediately.


And what if the things in the past have no chance of being a potential future problem?

The rapists and/or attempted murderer do not live anywhere near and/or are dead. The issues were handled a long time ago. They are in the past.

That is the point, they are no longer relevant.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> No, I don’t think that me being completely transparent (read told them everything that I have ever been through) would have avoided the subsequent divorces.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't believe I am going to stick up for jld but I guess I am. Weird. 

First off I think it is an absolute tragedy that you never got to have a relationship with an honorable man (you are so much like my mother). I think if you did your ideas about this would be different. But I don't blame you for feeling the way you do. 

I think jld's point is (I really can't believe I am defending her:wtf if you were with an honorable man and you had told him you may have found that his loving and care for you in this instance would have created a powerful bond and even maybe some form of healing for you. That is kind of what you were cheated out of. But again that assumes you had met the right man which you didn't. In your case I don't think not telling would have affected you either way. I still say maybe for you it made no difference, but in a lot of these instances telling would have prevented people from marrying or at least allowed people to head off some serious problems in the relationship.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

Thor said:


> Really? You think I am not aware that most entertainment movies and novels are fictional works?
> 
> What would make me upset would be a movie or book which states it is an accurate account of facts but it instead intentionally presents false information or intentionally omits information which skews the audience's understanding to be incorrect. Iow, I would be upset if the producers intentionally lied when they presented themselves as being truthful.


Well, that would be all of them, as far as I know. It's almost impossible to get funding to produce a movie, unless the funding provider wants you to emphasize THEIR message. Many so-called documentaries actually fit a category that was once reserved for Michael Moore: Docu-ganda.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> And what if the things in the past have no chance of being a potential future problem?
> 
> The rapists and/or attempted murderer do not live anywhere near and/or are dead. The issues were handled a long time ago. They are in the past.
> 
> That is the point, they are no longer relevant.


What if you were to trigger. That could affect him, he may not know why and wonder if there were some other reason. Didn't you want to talk about it with them? You know commiserate?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> No, I don’t think that me being completely transparent (read told them everything that I have ever been through) would have avoided the subsequent divorces.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was a very interesting post, Ele, and I appreciate your taking the time to write it.

And of course I am not blaming you for their actions. All of us are ultimately responsible for our own actions. We are the ones who pay the price for our actions, after all.

Ele, I do think your total transparency during dating could have made a difference. I think it might have even scared those last two husbands off before they ever became husbands. They were clearly not honest people. Hearing some of the heavy things you had been through could have overwhelmed them, and they might have left you alone. 

Their issues, like beating you, cheating on you, quitting their jobs or not seeking new ones, expecting you to pay for medical school and raise their kids practically on your own, are unlikely to have come out of nowhere. If they sensed you were hiding anything, they might have felt comfortable doing it, too. Transparency from even one person, otoh, can be convicting.

As to the first husband, it sounds like those drugs changed his personality. It could be that without that aneurysm, you two would still be married today. I am really sorry that happened.

The other thing is that when we are transparent, we force ourselves to look hard at ourselves. 

You mentioned you were never dishonest. But you were spying on your last two husbands, weren't you? 

I understand that they were cheating. But spying is still not an honest act. And whenever we get involved in dishonesty, for whatever reason, it is likely to affect us in some way, too.

Look, I am just trying to be helpful. I'm not trying to pick on you. I am really sorry you have been through the heartache you have, and certainly do not want to see you go through it ever again. I also think there are other people reading who can learn from your experience.

I do think transparency in marriage--marriage above all--is crucial. It forces us to look hard at ourselves, and at our partners. And I just do not see how that can ever hurt either party.


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## Young at Heart (Jan 6, 2015)

uhtred said:


> In some threads people have talked about lies by omission where someone doesn't tell things about their sexual past - say that they worked as a stripper.
> 
> What things would you expect to be told about a partner's past?


In many respects the more disclosure the better. However, it is also a bit situational.

For example, if I was planning to go into politics a whole bunch of stuff, from memberships in clubs/groups to whether she posted a lot of dumb stuff on social media would be important.

Then again, if I drove truck or worked as a longshoreman, having her have been a stripper, would probably be a non-deal. 

The things I would be most concerned about would be things that would impact our credit rating, our ability to travel to foreign countries, 

From reading TAM, past sexual abuse or trauma should be revealed. Same with any major medical/mental conditions. Serious criminal record stuff (don't care if they got busted drinking underage). 

Then again, somethings like addictions that they kicked and will never do again, I could understand not sharing.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> What if you were to trigger. That could affect him, he may not know why and wonder if there were some other reason. Didn't you want to talk about it with them? You know commiserate?


If I were to trigger, I would become important to talk about and we'd deal with it. At the time it happens. I would definitely bring it up if that ever happened.

No I did not want to talk about it with them or anyone. Commiserate? Nope, why would I want that? It would not change anything or fix anything.


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## DustyDog (Jul 12, 2016)

sokillme said:


> What? You are comparing a work of fiction to intentionally withholding information in a personal relationship? A work of fiction is just that a work of fiction there is nothing personal about it.


LOL! Entire political movements have been founded on works of fiction! The pen is mightier than the sword is a reference to that fact.

Nobody does full disclosure. It's not possible. When your spouse says "what did you do today", you don't tell him/her everything because doing so would require essentially that you retrace your steps from the good morning kiss until now. So, you attempt to summarize, you skip steps they would not understand - such as a belabored effort to install technical software that took 4 hours, when the spouse has no clue what software is. "I helped clients". Not to mention - the way the human brain works, once we think a thing is done and over, the brain begins creating new neural pathways that obscure old information that is deemed as having no future purpose. If someone has had a very painful experience due to having made a bad decision in life, it's entirely possible for their brains to prevent them from accessing the memories. Counselors deal with this sort of thing all the time.

A friend of mine recently lost his mom. His siblings came to town basically to watch her in the last days. All these siblings kept harassing him, reminding him of some physical abuse he took - for years - from Mom. He had absolutely no memory of it, but at some point, a sibling said just the right thing to trigger it and it all came back. He had never experienced this level of anger. And, he had not intentionally forgotten it. But a teenager who suffers physical abuse finds such a cognitive disconnect, to receive this from the person who's supposed to be his biggest supporter - the brain cannot comprehend both at once.

The more we learn about human memory, the more we realize it cannot be relied upon. The brain is fabulous at processing data and making decisions, but it sucks as a memory device. So - it's very difficult to tell when someone intentionally lies, unless they say it directly "I intentionally lied". You might know that what they said is untrue, but unless you can climb into their brains, you cannot tell whether it was intentional, or if their brains simply didn't recall the facts correctly..brains rarely do.

Then there's the matter of perspective.

Probably 20 years ago, I was having a beer with the guys. Someone brought up the subject of paying for sex, and claimed every man had done so. I said I had not. He said you're bull****ting, all men pay for sex. Then he went on - in his view, if a guy takes a woman out for a pricey dinner, and they have sex after, then he paid for sex. I said, "what if you already had a sexual relationship with her before the dinner? Then, would not the sexual encounter afterwards simply be a continuation of the existing relationship?" His reply? "Stop buying her dinners and see if you ever get sex again!". His view is, IMO, extreme - but he's not alone. I've certainly met women who told me that they knew men only spent money on their women because they expected sex in return, and they felt this was OK - it didn't make them prostitutes, because they were selective about what men they'd have sex with after a pricey purchase...specifically, whoever this summer's guy is, said one of them.

In my most - busy, I suppose - dating days - by which I mean I went on a lot of dates, not that I developed a large number of sexual conquests - I was either in college or just out, and so were the women, and none of us had money to blow on anything. So, a date rarely included a meal out at all...one of us would make a meal, we'd drive to somewhere in the wilderness, walk and talk, sit and eat, hold hands and kiss and just enjoy the bliss of fresh air and sunshine together. I've had entire multi-year relationships that never included any specific spending on her - or her on me. I mentioned this at the "guys having beer" event and the instigator said "See! I told you so! I bet you paid for the gas!!!".

Then, the other extreme....I took a woman out for dinner...it was expensive...I wasn't all that certain I was going to like her enough to develop a relationship, but I'd just moved to the area and there was a restaurant everybody said you HAD to try out...and I wasn't about to do it alone. So I dropped $125 per person for that dinner. Enjoyed the dinner. The woman - not bad, she was intelligent, strong-willed but for my tastes, far too married to a blend of her political ideas and the need to be treated like a queen. So, after, I went to take her home and she said I'd like to see the house you bought. She was a realtor so I thought she might give me ideas for what to work on first. After some chat, she began fondling me and I suggested a few more dates first. "After you bought that dinner?" and I said that was dinner, did the amount matter? "I'm not a dinner *****, if I didn't like you, I wouldn't be willing." Still, I gently declined. 

You never realize how much differently people can think than you do - what to withold? You would withhold things that other people would get pissed about - you just don't know what they are - yet.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> If I were to trigger, I would become important to talk about and we'd deal with it. At the time it happens. I would definitely bring it up if that ever happened.


I would have been very hurt by that. I would have felt like I never really earned your trust and why would you want to marry me if you didn't trust me with something so important even if it was a bad thing in your life. I would have wondered why. Being honest I would also wonder what else didn't I know.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

jld said:


> That was a very interesting post, Ele, and I appreciate your taking the time to write it.
> 
> And of course I am not blaming you for their actions. All of us are ultimately responsible for our own actions. We are the ones who pay the price for our actions, after all.
> 
> ...


And again, while you deny it, here you are again blaming me for the abuse and mistreatment. You have got to be kidding me. People who do these things do them out of their own mental health problem, not because their spouse did ton tall them that they were raped 30 years ago.


jld said:


> As to the first husband, it sounds like those drugs changed his personality. It could be that without that aneurysm, you two would still be married today. I am really sorry that happened.


It was not only the drugs that changed his personality. The brain damage from the intercranial aneurism and brain surgery changed his personality. The drugs just augmented it. Yea it was messed up.


jld said:


> The other thing is that when we are transparent, we force ourselves to look hard at ourselves.


Yes, and clearly, I have a need to bring up rapes and attempted murders so that I can keep looking hard at myself because clearly, I in some way caused that guy to walk up to me on the street and start strangling me. I’m sure that looking hard at myself, and introspection will help me realize how I contributed to him doing that. I’m sure that I’m to blame for the rape too and looking hard at myself will be a good lesson for me.
Some things are best dealt with and then left alone.


jld said:


> You mentioned you were never dishonest. But you were spying on your last two husbands, weren't you?
> 
> I understand that they were cheating. But spying is still not an honest act. And whenever we get involved in dishonesty, for whatever reason, it is likely to affect us in some way, too.


My ex tried that nonsense on me. He told me that he could not trust me because I snooped to find out what he was up to. My reply to him is that he could always trust me. That he could always trust that I would do what I needed to do to protect myself and my son. When one’s spouse is lying and cheating, snooping is a form of self-defense.

“I do think transparency in marriage--marriage above all--is crucial “ You are here advocating for complete openness and honestly in marriage. Well with that comes the idea that there are no secrets in marriage. That means that all computers, internet accounts, cellphone, etc. are open to the other spouse. And each spouse has the right to see what the other is up to.
What I did was not dishonest. Every human has the right to self-defense, even from cheating spouses. 


jld said:


> Look, I am just trying to be helpful. I'm not trying to pick on you. I am really sorry you have been through the heartache you have, and certainly do not want to see you go through it ever again. I also think there are other people reading who can learn from your experience.
> 
> I do think transparency in marriage--marriage above all--is crucial. It forces us to look hard at ourselves, and at our partners. And I just do not see how that can ever hurt either party.


Well, maybe that’s because you have never been raped and maybe because you have never had to talk to people about that rape. And maybe because you have never had anyone tell you that you deserved to be raped. Hear that crap enough and you become very protective of yourself. And so people put these experiences in little boxes and leave them there. That’s what a lot of people do.


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## theDrifter (Mar 20, 2017)

Regarding how much weight any individual would put on a potential mates past there is no wrong answer. You might not agree but it's as important to a person as it is...period.

As for me, I placed a great deal of weight on my wife's past. We were very young but it still would have mattered to me just how many sexual partners she had. Or if she had ever been part of group sex. Had she had too many sexual encounters or wild, freaky sex than I would have simply put her on the "not marriage material" list. I would have continued to date her for the sex but that's it. Lets say she told me she had been a stripper or an escort - that would have ended the relationship on the spot. The kind of guys she had dated would also be important to me. Low character seeks its own level so if she had dated some real scumbags I would have stopped seeing her. 

If somehow I became single today, none of this would mean anything because I'd only be looking for ONS or hookers. I guess that means that my intentions dictate my standards in this area.


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## TAM2013 (Jul 15, 2013)

2&out said:


> I don't think I'm running away from anything. I'm just not going to explain why I did certain things in the past that have no bearing on anything now. I have done most things right for me in life so far and have virtually no regrets. My biggest regret is associating myself with my second piece of garbage ex wife who deserves no discussion except she was one hot blue eyed natural blond. In my first "career" I travelled extensively doing something fun (and lucrative) and plenty of nice looking women always seemed to be around and available. I wasn't a saint but I took precautions and never got diseased. But I also don't have a "count" - I never kept track - and it's way more than the available digits I have to count with. If that's a problem then I'm not the man for you.


You won't break no deals with that story, dude. Until she finds out it's BS. Women present totally in reverse. Don't you let gender equality confuse the two.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> I would have been very hurt by that. I would have felt like I never really earned your trust and why would you want to marry me if you didn't trust me with something so important even if it was a bad thing in your life. I would have wondered why. Being honest I would also wonder what else didn't I know.


This thread and others like it point out that not everyone thinks the same about this. My guess is that most people never think about it at all. There is so much about relationships that we are not taught, never learn until it's too late. I know that I never gave a thought to how much info about the past was necessary to share before marriage. I've never been with a guy who asked much of anything either. From reading on this thread, a lot of people do not care all that much about their partner’s past. What matters to them is who their spouse is now and how their spouse treats them. 

My advice to people would be to know yourself. Know what level of disclosure you need from someone. And then tell them what you need. And tell them your deal breakers up front so that they can just end the relationship if there is something in their pasts that would be a deal breaker for you. That to me is an honest approach.


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## Thor (Oct 31, 2011)

EleGirl said:


> And what if the things in the past have no chance of being a potential future problem?
> 
> The rapists and/or attempted murderer do not live anywhere near and/or are dead. The issues were handled a long time ago. They are in the past.
> 
> That is the point, they are no longer relevant.


Ok, just being completely honest here. On the topics of CSA and rape there is an unresolvable difference between the victim and bf/fiance/husband when it comes to disclosure.

My perspective is that rape and CSA are frequently the source of deep emotional trauma which absolutely does affect the person into the future. The problem I've experienced and I know others who have, too, is the CSA or rape victim actively chooses to hide it because they know there is a problem of some sort. And that is where I have a serious problem with lies of omission. Even if they don't have the perspective to fully understand the implications, they are aware there are some residual effects on them, and they choose to hide it.

I think in most cases the past rarely has _no chance_ of being a potential future problem. Additionally, hiding information you think your partner would think important will definitely become a problem when discovered later.

The standard should be what we think our partner likely would find important, not what we think isn't important.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

EleGirl said:


> And what if the things in the past have no chance of being a potential future problem?
> 
> The rapists and/or attempted murderer do not live anywhere near and/or are dead. The issues were handled a long time ago. They are in the past.
> 
> That is the point, they are no longer relevant.


Yeah... since abuse and trauma have long-term to permanent affects on the brain, I'm not buying what you're selling here.

Let's not take anything particularly heinous, like rape and murder. Let's just look at basic neglect and abuse as a kid. Those alone have been demonstrated to have effects on people into their 50's and 60's. Certain parts of the brain actually shut down and atrophy. Odds of suicide skyrocket. Chances of depression and other mental illness do the same. 

Knowing about this allows you to make informed decisions about your partner, but more importantly, it means that if they start suffering from later-life issues stemming from previous problems, you are aware and will at least be capable of trying to support them and assist with their addressing it. 

Now ramp that up with extreme trauma, like murder, rape, etc... 

Hiding it only makes your partner unable to make informed decisions, and makes it much more difficult for them to offer you the support you need when you need it, and to look out for the family unit. Bad all around.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

jld said:


> To me, being transparent with a future partner is not about "owing" the other person the truth. It is about owing *yourself* the chance to find out if that other person can handle the truth about *you*. You deserve nothing less.


From a purely selfish POV this is absolutely correct. I actually agree with you JLD. You should be looking for a relationship with someone who is going to want a relationship with the person you are, not some facade put on to hide who you are. 

And of course, hiding facts about who you are is likely to cause a lot of trouble later, when it comes out, because your spouse fell in love with who you represented yourself to be, rather than who you are.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

EleGirl said:


> And again, while you deny it, here you are again blaming me for the abuse and mistreatment. You have got to be kidding me. People who do these things do them out of their own mental health problem, not because their spouse did ton tall them that they were raped 30 years ago.
> 
> It was not only the drugs that changed his personality. The brain damage from the intercranial aneurism and brain surgery changed his personality. The drugs just augmented it. Yea it was messed up.
> 
> ...


Ele. I think you know me better than to think that *I*, of all people on this forum, would ever blame you or any other woman for being raped, strangled, or otherwise having their vulnerability exploited by men, or to say that they deserved it. 

I don't think we are communicating clearly with each other. Let's talk about this later.


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

Kivlor said:


> Yeah... since abuse and trauma have long-term to permanent affects on the brain, I'm not buying what you're selling here.
> 
> Let's not take anything particularly heinous, like rape and murder. Let's just look at basic neglect and abuse as a kid. Those alone have been demonstrated to have effects on people into their 50's and 60's. Certain parts of the brain actually shut down and atrophy. Odds of suicide skyrocket. Chances of depression and other mental illness do the same.
> 
> ...


Agreed, everything from our past has the potential to affect the future. I was open about all my past, why would I not be? If a man didn't like something then he was free to leave, but hiding very important things is deception and may well have terrible consequences if it comes out later. The thoughts may be, well if he/she lied about something so massive then what else is he/she hiding? There are doubts and the trust is broken. If I felt a man was hiding things about his past because of guilt or shame or whatever, and refused to tell me, I couldn't marry him.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> This thread and others like it point out that not everyone thinks the same about this. My guess is that most people never think about it at all. There is so much about relationships that we are not taught, never learn until it's too late. I know that I never gave a thought to how much info about the past was necessary to share before marriage. I've never been with a guy who asked much of anything either. From reading on this thread, a lot of people do not care all that much about their partner’s past. What matters to them is who their spouse is now and how their spouse treats them.
> 
> My advice to people would be to know yourself. Know what level of disclosure you need from someone. And then tell them what you need. And tell them your deal breakers up front so that they can just end the relationship if there is something in their pasts that would be a deal breaker for you. That to me is an honest approach.


Were you ever with a partner who disclosed this kind of stuff with you?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> Agreed, everything from our past has the potential to affect the future. I was open about all my past, why would I not be? If a man didn't like something then he was free to leave, but hiding very important things is deception and may well have terrible consequences if it comes out later. The thoughts may be, well if he/she lied about something so massive then what else is he/she hiding? There are doubts and the trust is broken. If I felt a man was hiding things about his past because of guilt or shame or whatever, and refused to tell me, I couldn't marry him.


For me, I think it would depend on what he had hidden.

Some people might have to warm up before they can be transparent. Maybe a few months.

But for me, I was transparent right away. No fooling around.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Were you ever with a partner who disclosed this kind of stuff with you?


Nope, not to the level of each of us pouring out every think in our past. 

Some times things came up. Like with Sam, we both talked about our previous marriage to some extent. Like: I was married to a guy who was abusive and cheated. So I divorced him. And he told me about his ex who had cheated and he had given her an ultimatum to end the affair or he would file for divorce. She left to go live with the guy. He filed for divorce.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

Here is what gets me on this thread... is that some at accusing me of hiding from my ex info about the rape and attempted murder.

I was not hiding this stuff. There just never seemed to be a need to bring it up. And that's an important point... there is often no need to bring it up.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> Nope, not to the level of each of us pouring out every think in our past.
> 
> Some times things came up. Like with Sam, we both talked about our previous marriage to some extent. Like: I was married to a guy who was abusive and cheated. So I divorced him. And he told me about his ex who had cheated and he had given her an ultimatum to end the affair or he would file for divorce. She left to go live with the guy. He filed for divorce.


Do you ever talk about this stuff with anyone. Say a close girlfriend? Maybe you are just not an open person. Some people aren't.

Why are you so sure the rape an attempted murder hasn't affected you. I know the assault I went through affects me every day to some small extent. Did you ever get any kind of counseling for it?


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Do you ever talk about this stuff with anyone. Say a close girlfriend? Maybe you are just not an open person. Some people aren't.
> 
> Why are you so sure the rape an attempted murder hasn't affected you. I know the assault I went through affects me every day to some small extent. Did you ever get any kind of counseling for it?


When I was raped, I told my mother. Her response was that I probably deserved it. That shut me up quickly. She is the only person in my real life I have ever told. This is, by the way, why a lot of rape victims never talk about it. I’ve mentioned it in TAM. It happened 48 years ago, so it’s sort of old and buried.

With the attempted murder by the guy who walked up to me, a lot of people at the time knew about it. But I seldom talk about it. What’s the point? If have talked about it on TAM. But otherwise, nope. Now as I stated earlier, I told my step daughter about her when she was assaulted. I felt that sharing it with her was an important type of support for her. 

Sometimes years go by that I don’t even think about this stuff. It’s not in the forefront of my mind.

The thing is that I think a lot of people don’t just dump all their past on others. There is a thread on here somewhere asking people if their partner has ever asked them details about their past sex life. Most of the people said that they have never asked anyone and/or had anyone ask them. Look at the number of people on this thread who said that they only care about who the person is now.

ETA: To directly answer your question. I don't normally talk about this stuff. Just like other don't normally talk about it.


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## EleGirl (Dec 3, 2011)

sokillme said:


> Do you ever talk about this stuff with anyone. Say a close girlfriend? Maybe you are just not an open person. Some people aren't.
> 
> Why are you so sure the rape an attempted murder hasn't affected you. I know the assault I went through affects me every day to some small extent. Did you ever get any kind of counseling for it?


What are the 3 worst things that ever happened to you?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> What are the 3 worst things that ever happened to you?


Getting cheated on.

The assaulted at gunpoint and walking into the end of a rape that I post on her a lot about. 

My mothers marriage to my abusive step-father which marred my adolescence from about 12 to 18.

Been to counseling for all of those.


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## memyselfandi (Jan 10, 2012)

I would think that if two people were dating and someone was a stripper at one time, that may need to be addressed. How many partners they had wouldn't be important, but I'd certainly want to know whether they had themselves checked out for any diseases before I slept with them.

In addition, if a couple was seriously dating, that may want to be addressed also. I certainly wouldn't want to walk into a place and have someone recognize my date as the stripper they once used to see at a club they hung out at if I didn't know about it first. 

I like to know the person I'm dating, especially if it's seriously. Any skeletons in their closets included.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

I would want to know as much abut my partners past as possible. IMO there are two legitimate answers they can give the first being the truth the second being I will not discuss it. Either one of those answers are honest to me and if I can not live with number two the I simply move on. What I have ZERO patience for is a person who lies about their past - claims to be a virgin, hides criminal record etc just to land a spouse and then acts indignant when their spouse is angry after they find out they have been lied to. A person who lies about their past and then lives that lie for decades is not an innocent victim they are simply manipulating another person to get what they want. Be honest in either discussing it or refusing to but do not lie and then act like you did nothing wrong.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> I would want to know as much abut my partners past as possible. IMO there are two legitimate answers they can give the first being the truth the second being I will not discuss it. Either one of those answers are honest to me and if I can not live with number two the I simply move on. What I have ZERO patience for is a person who lies about their past - claims to be a virgin, hides criminal record etc just to land a spouse and then acts indignant when their spouse is angry after they find out they have been lied to. *A person who lies about their past and then lives that lie for decades is not an innocent victim they are simply manipulating another person to get what they want. *Be honest in either discussing it or refusing to but do not lie and then act like you did nothing wrong.


Whether you consider them victims or perpetrators, I think people who are not transparent during dating and marriage are likely to pay a price for it. 

They may think they are protecting themselves, but they are opening themselves to huge risk if and when what they have not disclosed upfront eventually comes out, as it is very likely to in our modern age. That thread about the lady who did not disclose that her first 3 kids had 3 different fathers is an example of this.

I understand that it is hard to be an open book, especially when someone is ashamed for whatever reason of their past, as she likely was.

But vulnerability is part of marriage. And vulnerability may mean that sometimes we are going to be misunderstood and hurt, at least temporarily. 

Fortunately, it also means that we may be offered tremendous compassion and empathy. That was my experience with my husband when I disclosed my past. It foreshadowed much of how he continues to treat me. 

Same with how I was transparent right away with him. I have continued to be so. That builds trust.

Lol, I don't think I *cannot* be transparent with him, and with many other people, too. The truth, at least as I see it, just spills out from me.

Courage is the answer. Courage to be honest and upfront, whatever the consequences.

_"The truth shall set you free."_


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

jld said:


> Fortunately, it also means that we may be offered tremendous compassion and empathy. That was my experience with my husband when I disclosed my past. It foreshadowed much of how he continues to treat me.
> 
> Same with how I was transparent right away with him. I have continued to be so. That builds trust.
> 
> ...



This to me is the sensible and honorable approach. I always ask people wouldnt you rather be loved for who you truly are than have a marriage based on a lie. Even though we grow and change out past is a part of who we are - it has taught us life lessons. In some cases a partners past be it sexual or otherwise is a dealbreaker for the other person and that is fine as well. We all have our dealbreakers. But what a person is owed is the chance to enter marriage knowing all the facts and not a lie. We have had threads on TAM where a spouse lied about being a virgin and was found out and her H was angry. The TAM response seemed to have more sympathy for the lying wife than the H. But she had no right to lie and deceive just to get a husband. Sexual history was very important to him and the W knew this and lied anyway - what kind of way is that to start a marriage? Whether you agree or disagree with the H's worldview it seemed to be his sincerely held belief...and his wife had no right to lie to land him.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> This to me is the sensible and honorable approach. I always ask people wouldnt you rather be loved for who you truly are than have a marriage based on a lie. Even though we grow and change out past is a part of who we are - it has taught us life lessons. In some cases a partners past be it sexual or otherwise is a dealbreaker for the other person and that is fine as well. We all have our dealbreakers. But what a person is owed is the chance to enter marriage knowing all the facts and not a lie. We have had threads on TAM where a spouse lied about being a virgin and was found out and her H was angry. The TAM response seemed to have more sympathy for the lying wife than the H. But she had no right to lie and deceive just to get a husband. Sexual history was very important to him and the W knew this and lied anyway - what kind of way is that to start a marriage? Whether you agree or disagree with the H's worldview it seemed to be his sincerely held belief...and his wife had no right to lie to land him.


I think we owe it to *ourselves* to be transparent, not to our spouses. I said that in an earlier post.

Transparency cannot be forced if we want to build trust. It needs to be voluntary, to come from the heart. And it can certainly be invited by making our partner feel as safe with us as possible.


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## Truthseeker1 (Jul 17, 2013)

jld said:


> I think we owe it to *ourselves* to be transparent, not to our spouses. I said that in an earlier post.
> 
> Transparency cannot be forced if we want to build trust. It needs to be voluntary, to come from the heart. And it can certainly be invited by making our partner feel as safe with us as possible.


We owe it to our spouse as well...people dont have a "right" to the spouse of their choice...its a bait and switch ad its dishonest and immoral...how can you trust your spouse again after they based your marriage on a lie? How can a person say what a great person they have become if they continue to lie to their spouse for years? When dating we dont have to divulge all but when considering marriage we do...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Truthseeker1 said:


> *We owe it to our spouse as well*...people dont have a "right" to the spouse of their choice...its a bait and switch ad its dishonest and immoral...how can you trust your spouse again after they based your marriage on a lie? How can a person say what a great person they have become if they continue to lie to their spouse for years? When dating we dont have to divulge all but when considering marriage we do...


I don't think there is any way of enforcing that, truthseeker.

I truly feel being transparent with our partner benefits us the most. Rigorous honesty, especially with ourselves, is healing and empowering. However they react is secondary. 

Good info for deciding whether or not to stay with them, though.


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## becareful2 (Jul 8, 2016)

EleGirl said:


> And what if they know that there is no evidence on the internet? Most people don't have that sort of thing to deal with.


If there's no evidence online, then that's even better. The point is to be honest, especially in the lead up to the wedding.


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