# What HD men need to know about LD women



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

I posted this on another thread, but felt that it may get lost and that it could benefit a lot of HD men who are frustrated and hurting due to their LD wives/SOs.

When you view sex as a need for your wife to fulfill, then you've taken away a woman's desire for you. If the LD person sees sex as something they must do in order to avoid negative consequences (whether that's overt anger or sullenness or detachment), then you will kill all sexual desire in that person.

I suspect that LD people have never been allowed to enjoy the experience of sex. Sex often comes with pressure from the HD partner. The LD person feels that their HD partner needs it, needs it now, needs it X times a week, needs it to be this and that and the other.

I think many women are LD because they mature sexually under this pressure. The teenagers and young 20 somethings want sex so bad it hurts. To a teenage girl, this desire for her may be very confusing. Does he love me, want me, or just want my body? He won't stay with me if I don't have sex with him, so I will need to have sex with him in order to be in the relationship (perhaps even before she is ready).

As long as she has sex with him, he stays happy. And the more he has sex with her, the more he thinks she's the greatest girl on earth.

Meanwhile she isn't really enjoying the sex (most young men haven't the same skills, know what I mean!). But she tries to like it. Eventually, though, she just isn't that interested anymore. She's always pleasing him with sex and giving in to the pressure, but it feels very one sided.

Then the worst thing happens. Her fears come true! When the sex fades, he loses interest. He didn't really love her in the first place; he loved having sex with her. 

Think of how many men think that women marry for money and financial security. If their SO becomes sullen, angry, or detached when he loses his job and has to take a pay cut, if she complains that she can't spend money like she did before, then his fears have come true. A man wants to believe "for richer or for poorer" but deep down may question that. Her response to his reduced income can either strengthen the marriage or kill it. 

Back to the HD/LD issue and the pressure on young women. When young women reach adulthood, many haven't found themselves sexually due to the mixed messages and pressure they've been under. Sex is something they do in exchange for love. And men get so caught up in "meet my need" and "she doesn't understand what I'm going through" that they don't see their SO has been giving them what they wanted until they couldn't anymore.

To resolve this, I think two things need to happen. Both sides need to take some steps here. 

First, the HD man needs to back off on the pressure he is putting on his SO for sex. This pressure is a turn off, tends to escalate, and as I said before, actually reduces your partner's sexual desire. In other words, it's going to prevent you from having great sex, so it needs to stop. Period.

The HD man needs to let his SO know that he is backing down. But in so doing, he needs to ask his LD SO to take a step back, too. She needs to take a step back and look at how she matured sexually. Does she have a fear deep down that he only loves her for sex? Did she feel love in her early relationships or did she feel pressured to have sex in exchange for love? And does she feel this way now?

Once you set the stage, you can begin to help the LD woman open up and feel comfortable. 

If you can't do this, then you might need to ask yourself what your motives are.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SurpriseMyself said:


> First, the HD man needs to back off on the pressure he is putting on his SO for sex. This pressure is a turn off, tends to escalate, and as I said before, actually reduces your partner's sexual desire. In other words, it's going to prevent you from having great sex, so it needs to stop. Period.
> 
> The HD man needs to let his SO know that he is backing down.


But not forever.



> But in so doing, he needs to ask his LD SO to take a step back, too. She needs to take a step back and look at how she matured sexually. Does she have a fear deep down that he only loves her for sex? Did she feel love in her early relationships or did she feel pressured to have sex in exchange for love? And does she feel this way now?


This worked for us. He said look, I am not going to be in a sexless marriage. BUT I don't just want to have sex with you. I want YOU. So I am not asking for it. But I am asking for you to work with me to figure out how to bridge this disconnect.

Wow. Just wow. He loves me! He hears me! He wants ME!


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

NobodySpecial said:


> But not forever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome! I'm glad to hear it worked.

And I'm in complete agreement that backing down is temporary. It sends the right message and allows breathing room to discover the real issue. I think of it like a car with a flat tire. You can't fix the flat if you just keep driving, and speeding up is certainly not the right answer. You have to stop the car before you tear the rim totally apart. You may have wanted to keep on driving, but it's not the smart thing to do and you know it!

If they can figure out the real issues and resolve them, then I would suggest that instead of applying the pressure again down the road, the HD man focus on maintaining the environment that leads to more love, respect, and intimacy. Don't go back to demanding or this will all be for naught.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

Not everything is a negotiation. And even if it is, when your negotiating opponent simply refuses to comply, then what?


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Runs like Dog said:


> Not everything is a negotiation. And even if it is, when your negotiating opponent simply refuses to comply, then what?


Negotiating opponent? If that's how you view them, then I think you probably haven't created a comfortable environment for the conversation to even begin.

And this isn't about negotiation. Go back to the "for richer or poorer" comparison. If I said to you that you need to make $10,000 a month to meet my needs, would you feel that I loved you?

But men do this all the time. They want to negotiate how many times a week they have sex. Talk about a libido killer!


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Is it fair to expect some acknowledgement of the LD's part in this screwed up dynamic? 

Meaning the fundamental dishonesty, however unintended that was, at the beginning?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Is it fair to expect some acknowledgement of the LD's part in this screwed up dynamic?
> 
> Meaning the fundamental dishonesty, however unintended that was, at the beginning?


"This worked for us. He said look, I am not going to be in a sexless marriage. BUT I don't just want to have sex with you. I want YOU. So I am not asking for it. But I am asking for you to work with me to figure out how to bridge this disconnect."


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Negotiating for sex is treating sex like something you trade for. You are basically making it a commodity, and that if your woman is trading sex for something she wants, she's essentially become a prostitute with a single client.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> Not everything is a negotiation. And even if it is, when your negotiating opponent simply refuses to comply, then what?


OMG "negotiating opponent"? Good luck with that.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

anonmd said:


> Is it fair to expect some acknowledgement of the LD's part in this screwed up dynamic?
> 
> Meaning the fundamental dishonesty, however unintended that was, at the beginning?


What's your goal, anonmd? To get the LD person to admit that they just wanted to be loved and that they felt they had to have sex to get love? 

Or is your goal to create a comfortable environment where you really know and love each other? Where she feels safe to open up to you?

Again, keep your eye on the goal.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> "This worked for us. He said look, I am not going to be in a sexless marriage. BUT I don't just want to have sex with you. I want YOU. So I am not asking for it. But I am asking for you to work with me to figure out how to bridge this disconnect."


Seems like replacing pressure for sex with a threat of divorce.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

anonmd said:


> Seems like replacing pressure for sex with a threat of divorce.


Seems like he clearly expressed his boundaries and expectations while at the same time backing off the immediate pressure so they could actually talk.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> To resolve this, I think two things need to happen. Both sides need to take some steps here.
> 
> First, the HD man needs to back off on the pressure he is putting on his SO for sex. This pressure is a turn off, tends to escalate, and as I said before, actually reduces your partner's sexual desire. In other words, it's going to prevent you from having great sex, so it needs to stop. Period.
> 
> ...


And when you do this, and the marriage improves a great deal, but the intimacy remains at the hand holding and snuggling stage... and your partner seems very content with the relationship as it is... then what?

How long do you wait? At 13 months, and much to my surprise, my partner did initiate. But even then, nothing really changed in our dynamics. Am I going to have to go another 13 months only to be disappointed again?

Years and years ago, I backed off for two full years. 24 months. The response from my partner? "You don't desire my any more." I think we have worked through that, but nothing has really changed.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

This sounds good as far as it goes, but unfortunately you are leaving out a very common scenario.

Namely, that most young women are indeed very interested in sex, just not with most men. This leads to very bad results when they "settle" for someone to whom they are not attracted, of course without telling that person this tiny detail.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Surprise,

This is the reason some women are LD.

But some men are also LD.

What makes you think this is THE reason women are LD?

And FWIW sounds like ONE MAN mistreated you, he doesn't represent all mankind. 




SurpriseMyself said:


> I posted this on another thread, but felt that it may get lost and that it could benefit a lot of HD men who are frustrated and hurting due to their LD wives/SOs.
> 
> When you view sex as a need for your wife to fulfill, then you've taken away a woman's desire for you. If the LD person sees sex as something they must do in order to avoid negative consequences (whether that's overt anger or sullenness or detachment), then you will kill all sexual desire in that person.
> 
> ...


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

CopperTop said:


> And when you do this, and the marriage improves a great deal, but the intimacy remains at the hand holding and snuggling stage... and your partner seems very content with the relationship as it is... then what?
> 
> How long do you wait? At 13 months, and much to my surprise, my partner did initiate. But even then, nothing really changed in our dynamics. Am I going to have to go another 13 months only to be disappointed again?
> 
> Year and years ago, I backed off for two full years. 24 months. The response from my partner? "You don't desire my any more." I think we have worked through that, but nothing has really changed.


Is she rejecting you still? Are you initiating?


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

anonmd said:


> Is it fair to expect some acknowledgement of the LD's part in this screwed up dynamic?
> 
> Meaning the fundamental dishonesty, however unintended that was, at the beginning?


Are you seeking "penance" from your spouse for what you perceive as a wrong done to you. Some vindication that they were wrong and you were right. This is the same mindset as seeing your spouse as a negotiating opponent.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

anonmd said:


> Seems like replacing pressure for sex with a threat of divorce.


There was a very real reality that divorce was going to happen if WE did not fix this. But also an offer of time and space to figure it out. Bear in mind that this was at the same time that I was setting very similar limits in the are of domestic responsibility. I was not going to be full time income generator and exclusive domestic engineer. I would clean what I wanted to clean. When I cooked, I was not going to be a jerk and cook just for myself. But if he left crap laying around that was in my way, I was going to stuff it out of my way. If he left crap around that was not in my way, there it was going to stay until he cleaned it up. I was not going to respond to whines about how dirty the house is. And I was not doing his laundry anymore.

So we were both dealing with issues. Resentment was building. Neither of us signed up for this marriage. So we called full stop. We are going to fix this. Or we are going to get out. And that was reality, not a threat.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Seems like he clearly expressed his boundaries and expectations while at the same time backing off the immediate pressure so they could actually talk.


In a myopic view maybe. In a broader view, it is exactly what anonmd said.....'either start putting out or I will find someone that will' (paraphrased). Now, I don't have a problem with that, I think it is good that the boundary was made and held to, but at least lets be honest about it.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

altawa said:


> In a myopic view maybe. In a broader view, it is exactly what anonmd said.....'either start putting out or I will find someone that will' (paraphrased). Now, I don't have a problem with that, I think it is good that the boundary was made and held to, but at least lets be honest about it.


I think you are off here.

First, it was NobodySpecial's story. Anonmd is the one wanting the LD partner to acknowledge their part in the mess. 

By the way, NobodySpecial clearly explained what was going on at that point in their relationship. When her H said he wanted to have sex with his wife, that's absolutely fair. But he didn't "negotiate" for other things. They worked through them by understanding what was going on.

Big difference!


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

technovelist said:


> This sounds good as far as it goes, but unfortunately you are leaving out a very common scenario.
> 
> Namely, that most young women are indeed very interested in sex, just not with most men. This leads to very bad results when they "settle" for someone to whom they are not attracted, of course without telling that person this tiny detail.


Sexual desire, especially for women, starts in the mind, not in the loins. Yes, she may prefer you to have a certain appearance, but if you don't turn her on upstairs you probably won't turn her on downstairs.

Few women want to date the dumb hunk. They want a man who excites them, makes them laugh, etc.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

IMO, what HD men need to know depends on several things. (And by switching men/women, this applies to both sexes.)

1. LD women exist.
2. There are different kinds of LD.
3. You need to be able to identify LD women ASAP and the type of LD, so you can decide what to do - enter a relationship, avoid a relationship, or improve a relationship.
4. Situational LD can be improved, but figuring out how can be difficult, as the reasons are seldom clear, and could be the fault of either or both of you. Communication and honesty (including self-honesty) is key, but without that you stand almost no chance of improvement.
5. Conditioned LD can be improved, too, but may be harder to change as this is due to experiences and/or beliefs the LD has had - you can't change them unless they want to change themselves. Trying to find a motivation that works for them to want to change is extremely difficult.
6. Innate LD is probably genetic, but may also be exacerbated by situation and conditioning, so determining this can be exceptionally difficult. There is probably nothing you can do to improve things with an innate LD, unless resolving the situational and conditioning factors can lead to some - probably small - improvement.

Once you know what you are dealing with, you can decide what you are able and willing to do, and how much effort you are willing to put into change. IMO, it's often not worth it unless you are already so deep into a relationship that it is worth a significant effort to improve before deciding to either live with it as best you can, or leave. IMO, it is always worth working on if it's situational and YOU are part of the problem. At worst, you may improve yourself so that you have better results in a future relationship. Aside from that, IMO it is usually better to move on.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Is she rejecting you still? Are you initiating?


We are in a bad place at the moment. But before that, I wasn't initiating so she wasn't rejecting me. Before that, when I was still initiating, she was rejecting me 5-7 times a week, every week, for 15 years. Maybe 2-5 times a year would she agree to be intimate.

Until very recently, we hugged, kiss, snuggled, laughed, enjoyed life. But that is all she wanted. I think the following quote sums it up perfectly. 

At about 12 months, after I stopped initiating with her, she told me, "the past year of our marriage has been as good as it has been in a long time."


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I think you are off here.
> 
> First, it was NobodySpecial's story. Anonmd is the one wanting the LD partner to acknowledge their part in the mess.
> 
> ...


Im not off, I just didn't multi qoute it (actually, I thought I did, but the first one didnt carry through). Anonmd's quote:



> Seems like replacing pressure for sex with a threat of divorce.


is totally accurate as to what happened. Were there other issues, sure. Notwithstanding, the threat of a divorce is still a threat, and the sex was still implicitly part of it that was obviously a nexus of the problems.



> There was a very real reality that divorce was going to happen if WE did not fix this.


Why sugar coat it?


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

altawa said:


> Why sugar coat it?


I didn't. In fact, what I did was make it more stark than "threat". Some people threaten that which they never intend to act on. He was not threatening. He was stating fact. We both agreed that that was both true and fair.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

altawa said:


> Im not off, I just didn't multi qoute it (actually, I thought I did, but the first one didnt carry through). Anonmd's quote:
> 
> 
> is totally accurate as to what happened. Were there other issues, sure. Notwithstanding, the threat of a divorce is still a threat, and the sex was still implicitly part of it that was obviously a nexus of the problems.
> ...


I'm not sugar coating anything. He expressed what he needed in the relationship. Again, he didn't demand. He sought understanding. And they fixed it.

If your spouse is an alcoholic, do you help them through it or just demand they stop or else? You don't want to be married to an alcoholic, but it's HOW you address it that matters. 

Do you see the difference?

If you can't, then you probably won't get very far in your current situation (assuming you are partnered with an LD with whom you are frustrated).


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

CopperTop said:


> We are in a bad place at the moment. But before that, I wasn't initiating so she wasn't rejecting me. Before that, when I was still initiating, she was rejecting me 5-7 times a week, every week, for 15 years. Maybe 2-5 times a year would she agree to be intimate.
> 
> Until very recently, we hugged, kiss, snuggled, laughed, enjoyed life. But that is all she wanted. I think the following quote sums it up perfectly.
> 
> At about 12 months, after I stopped initiating with her, she told me, "the past year of our marriage has been as good as it has been in a long time."


So, two (really 3) questions came in to my mind. 

1. Does she understand why she is LD? If so, did you help her with that process or did she at least share with you what she came to understand about why?

2. Do you know what turns her on? And by that, I mean what kind of man gets her motor running. Not physically, but personality wise.


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## Maria Canosa Gargano (Jan 30, 2015)

Married but Happy said:


> IMO, what HD men need to know depends on several things. (And by switching men/women, this applies to both sexes.)
> 
> 1. LD women exist.
> 2. There are different kinds of LD.
> ...


Really great post. I think the OP is wonderful too for a certain LD, most likely situational/learned. However you addressed the other types of LD.

And while men usually are more HD, it is very true that there are LD men as well.

Excellent post. Thank you.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

CopperTop said:


> We are in a bad place at the moment. But before that, I wasn't initiating so she wasn't rejecting me. Before that, when I was still initiating, she was rejecting me 5-7 times a week, every week, for 15 years. Maybe 2-5 times a year would she agree to be intimate.
> 
> Until very recently, we hugged, kiss, snuggled, laughed, enjoyed life. But that is all she wanted. I think the following quote sums it up perfectly.
> 
> At about 12 months, after I stopped initiating with her, she told me, "the past year of our marriage has been as good as it has been in a long time."


Of course it was... for her. And that's all that matters!


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

I fully agree that if you pressure and guilt for sex, you will push your spouse further away and that sex isn't a reward, weapon or punishment, which many still use it as one.

I'm in the camp where I've never pressured, demanded, negotiated or used any other tactic for sex. I've questioned the "why", but always left it at that? I've always believed if you're truly in a close loving relationship, then you shouldn't have to ask, it should be a mutual longing? I quit asking a year ago, because it became belittling to me as a man.

Sex will always have a large emotional impact on me & I'll never be able to do it, just to do it, which is why I'm preferring to not more and more each day. I think my wife thinks more like, it's just sex, no big deal, no connection needed, but I've never been able to separate the emotional from the physical & I'm sure there are millions who feel the same way.

You either both love sex or both can live without it, there is no other way that works. I'm adapting to the latter one & progressing nicely.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

MarriedGuy221 said:


> Hnmmmm ok so now substitute LD woman for average guy and sex for talking.
> 
> Does your argument and solution hold true?


ABSOLUTELY. DH said to me very recently, you have a need to be heard. I have a hard time when you go on and on continuing to pay attention. Can you sum up at the beginning with statements about what the conversation is intended to achieve so I can understand better what you want me to understand?

Well, yes, I can do that!


> Average guy isn't interested in bonding through talking and doesn't care about your interactions with other people throughout your day.


Well, actually it would be nice if you DID care about her interactions. I certainly care about his. Not caring about your spouse's experience is weird.



> He doesn't want to rehash his day. He wants to unwind by watching TV, putzing around the house, or surfing the internet.


Which he needs to get too, of course. I walk into his office, see him playing a game, and think I will go make dinner. He clearly needs some decompress time. If I start talking when he is not ready to talk, he looks tired and says Later? Yah, sure.



> Watch guys at a bar and you will notice they seem to do nothing, rarely talk and have a great time.
> 
> You should wait for him to initiate casual conversation and definitely not pressure him. Oh and all those chick flicks - yeah back off on those cause Arnold is who he really wants to see.


Opposite for us. I want boobs and things that explode. He wants documentaries. Fortunately I go to bed before he does, so he gets his fix. And sometimes we watch what the other person watches and call it good.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> What's your goal, anonmd? To get the LD person to admit that they just wanted to be loved and that they felt they had to have sex to get love?
> 
> Or is your goal to create a comfortable environment where you really know and love each other? Where she feels safe to open up to you?
> 
> Again, keep your eye on the goal.


A little of the first. Not a lot, not total. I am expected and have owned up to many of my own shortcomings. 

The second, of course - yes.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

MarriedGuy221 said:


> Hnmmmm ok so now substitute LD woman for average guy and sex for talking.
> 
> Does your argument and solution hold true?
> 
> ...


You hit the nail on the head with this one! I have been asking for a long time that my H connect with me emotionally. I don't need him to listen to gossip and girl talk or even listen to me compare this apple to that one. But demanding it is the wrong thing, and I have stopped saying that I "need" this. Instead, I've encouraged him to seek counseling so he can understand himself and why he is so emotionally isolated from everyone, not just me.

I do expect him to understand that if he's not connecting with me emotionally, actually having quality time with me that isn't based around sex, then he won't be bonding with me.

Affection doesn't thrive under command. Neither does sexual desire.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I didn't. In fact, what I did was make it more stark than "threat". Some people threaten that which they never intend to act on. He was not threatening. He was stating fact. We both agreed that that was both true and fair.


I wasnt necessarily meaning you....sorry if it came off that way.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

altawa said:


> I wasnt necessarily meaning you....sorry if it came off that way.


I think you are operating from a position that that real threat is a Bad Thing. I don't agree.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

anonmd said:


> A little of the first. Not a lot, not total. I am expected and have owned up to many of my own shortcomings.
> 
> The second, of course - yes.


While certainly not the same degree, let me give you a comparison. If a woman is LD because she was raped, it is a personal shortcoming on her part if she's LD?

While it isn't rape, to have your early sexual experiences be based on having sex to get love, and that experience is reinforced by other relationships and by lots of men who expect sex or else, is it her personal shortcoming that she's LD? What exactly is she owning up to?

Now, if she listens to you and understands that her rejection of you hurt you, then would that be enough. I don't think LD women want to hurt their men. I really don't. I can see where it is similar to an alcoholic who hurts others with their drinking. It wasn't their goal to hurt you, but you did get hurt.

But forcing them to own up to how much they hurt you won't help. Once they see the light, you would hope they can apologize for unintended consequences and for failing those they love. But it was never their intention.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
While some people are LD due to past experiences, or the behavior of their partners, some just seen to be innate LDs, nothing will interest them in sex.

People of are LD for some "reason" may have a difficult time imagining a truly LD person who would not want sex, or would only want very rare sex no matter what the other conditions.

A true LD may be very happy with a relationship that never goes beyond kisses and hand-holding. HD partners with this sort of LD need to decide if they are willing to spend their lives like that. 


There is a very wide variation in what people are calling LD and what they are calling HD.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Negotiating opponent? If that's how you view them, then I think you probably haven't created a comfortable environment for the conversation to even begin.


Point being not everything can actually be solved that way. Maybe it's a generational thing - some people imagine that anything and everything MUST be haggled over. And somehow that will lead to success. But in the back of your mind you're clearly tallying up wins and losses anyway. 

Do you know what the definition of a successful negotiation is? Everyone walks away a little bit disappointed.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SurpriseMyself said:


> While certainly not the same degree, let me give you a comparison. If a woman is LD because she was raped, it is a personal shortcoming on her part if she's LD?


I think giving a poop about whose issue it is only leads to blame and demands. We're married. If there is a problem, it is OUR problem. Let's work together to figure it out.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Runs like Dog said:


> Point being not everything can actually be solved that way. Maybe it's a generational thing - some people imagine that anything and everything MUST be haggled over. And somehow that will lead to success. But in the back of your mind you're clearly tallying up wins and losses anyway.


That is just sad. 


> Do you know what the definition of a successful negotiation is? Everyone walks away a little bit disappointed.


That is even sadder. That attitude is self fulfilling IMO. If you don't expect a win/win, if you don't even think a win/win is possible, you won't seek it.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I'm not sugar coating anything. He expressed what he needed in the relationship. Again, he didn't demand. He sought understanding. And they fixed it.
> 
> If your spouse is an alcoholic, do you help them through it or just demand they stop or else? You don't want to be married to an alcoholic, but it's HOW you address it that matters.
> 
> ...


There is a general sugar coating of many things on this site. Just like with:


> Seems like he clearly expressed his boundaries and expectations while at the same time backing off the immediate pressure so they could actually talk.


Call it for what it is: It is a threat regarding a hard boundary and consequences for its being breached. I don't have a problem with it, I am just very blunt and very politically incorrect. It would be no different if you want to switch in alcoholics. But, you seem to act like it went from happy marriage to 'sex or divorce' overnight. I highly doubt that. I will give the benefit of the doubt that many intermediate steps were tried and didn't work in between.


NobodySpecial said:


> I think you are operating from a position that that real threat is a Bad Thing. I don't agree.


Absolutely not. I am fully onboard with not staying in unhappy marriages, and also believe that if you threaten divorce you need to be ready to follow through with it. I don't see that as a bad thing at all, I have zero problem with it.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> While some people are LD due to past experiences, or the behavior of their partners, some just seen to be innate LDs, nothing will interest them in sex.
> 
> People of are LD for some "reason" may have a difficult time imagining a truly LD person who would not want sex, or would only want very rare sex no matter what the other conditions.
> ...


I won't dispute this, but I will also say that no one knows what kind of LD they are until they really think it through, mostly likely with a trained professional and certainly not with their HD partner who is hoping she can get past this as quick as possible so they can get between the sheets again.

I will bet good money that many LD women aren't "innate LD" so much as they haven't matured sexually. I know I never really had the chance.


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

altawa said:


> There is a general sugar coating of many things on this site. Just like with:
> 
> 
> Call it for what it is: It is a threat regarding a hard boundary and consequences for its being breached. I don't have a problem with it, I am just very blunt and very politically incorrect. It would be no different if you want to switch in alcoholics. But, you seem to act like it went from happy marriage to 'sex or divorce' overnight. I highly doubt that. I will give the benefit of the doubt that many intermediate steps were tried and didn't work in between.
> ...


OK. So are you just threatening divorce, or are you working with your partner on each of your issues?


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

SurpriseMyself said:


> OK. So are you just threatening divorce, or are you working with your partner on each of your issues?


Me personally, I am not threatening anything. 

As far as my wife, we live 1000 miles apart. Not sure exactly how much pressure she is getting for sex (better be none). I ask her questions, get either vague or no answers. The answers I do get are bullsh!t, part of the reason I have such a low tolerance for it. I am not getting into a bunch of it on this thread though.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

altawa said:


> Call it for what it is: It is a threat regarding a hard boundary and consequences for its being breached. I don't have a problem with it, I am just very blunt and very politically incorrect. It would be no different if you want to switch in alcoholics. But, you seem to act like it went from happy marriage to 'sex or divorce' overnight.


I am not sure where you get the overnight thing. It was not a quid pro quo. It was a statement of fact. If a person were to say sex or divorce without the REST of the conversation/activity, then yah all that would be accomplished would be divorce.

In my example, which is not a half bad one, it was not a demand or a threat. And it was part and parcel with, I love you. I want to be married to you forever. BUT *if we don't fix this I cannot stay like this.*


----------



## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> While certainly not the same degree, let me give you a comparison. If a woman is LD because she was raped, it is a personal shortcoming on her part if she's LD?
> 
> While it isn't rape, to have your early sexual experiences be based on having sex to get love, and that experience is reinforced by other relationships and by lots of men who expect sex or else, is it her personal shortcoming that she's LD? What exactly is she owning up to?


Sigh! 

See, I had other relationships before I met her. It would probably be fair to say that I was the instigator for initiating sex and there were instances where she was less interested at times that I was and yes - I would exert some pressure. You know how it goes. 

My relationship with my wife was nothing like that early on, meaning before we got married right back to day one. There was NEVER any pressure on my part, in fact she was the aggressor on day 1.Then we got married, then she got pregnant, then she was LD to various degrees for many years. 

My drive has been constant, in fact it is probably significantly lower now than 20 years ago. It's hard to tell because for well over a decade activity has been at such a low level. I honestly feel the only reason we are able to begin making progress now after such a long time is my drive is lower and I am able to engage in the sort of mid range below where I am totally pissed off, frustrated and have to detach to preserve my sanity.


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Runs like Dog said:


> Point being not everything can actually be solved that way. Maybe it's a generational thing - some people imagine that anything and everything MUST be haggled over. And somehow that will lead to success. But in the back of your mind you're clearly tallying up wins and losses anyway.
> 
> Do you know what the definition of a successful negotiation is? Everyone walks away a little bit disappointed.


You seem unable to make the distinction between communication and negotiation. 

A lot of issues can be resolved through negotiation. You want a beach house; she wants to put in a new kitchen. You don't have $ for both. So you agree to rent a place at the beach twice a year and use the remaining $ for the kitchen that costs a bit less. Negotiated to a win/win. 

But sex isn't like that. 

That’s because trading sex is a bad idea unless you want to be a secret prostitute. As I said before, negotiations like this treat sex as a commodity. It will take the love and emotion out of sex to the point it becomes a means to an end as well as a lie.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not sure where you get the overnight thing. It was not a quid pro quo. It was a statement of fact. If a person were to say sex or divorce without the REST of the conversation/activity, then yah all that would be accomplished would be divorce.
> 
> In my example, which is not a half bad one, it was not a demand or a threat. And it was part and parcel with, I love you. I want to be married to you forever. BUT *if we don't fix this I cannot stay like this.*


Well, was it an overnight development? I highly doubt it was.....it almost never is. Which was my point, that it wasn't something that just happened overnight.

And, yes, it was a threat, absolutely. "IF we dont fix this, THEN I cannot stay like this". You set a condition/boundary, then a consequence for failure to meet the condition or breaking the boundary. Forewarning of those consequences is a threat.

Again, I don't see a problem with it, but call it for what it is.


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I posted this on another thread, but felt that it may get lost and that it could benefit a lot of HD men who are frustrated and hurting due to their LD wives/SOs.
> 
> When you view sex as a need for your wife to fulfill, then you've taken away a woman's desire for you. If the LD person sees sex as something they must do in order to avoid negative consequences (whether that's overt anger or sullenness or detachment), then you will kill all sexual desire in that person.
> 
> ...


So to continue your analogy, a man who is feeling pressured into supporting his wife should be able to stop until he feels better about that. Right?


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

anonmd said:


> I honestly feel the only reason we are able to begin making progress now after such a long time is my drive is lower and I am able to engage in the sort of mid range below where I am totally pissed off, frustrated and have to detach to preserve my sanity.


So until your libido went down, you were pissed off and frustrated? Did you talk it through with her? And now you are able to be detached rather than pissed off and frustrated?

Sounds like you haven't really been able to get to the root of the issues yet. Or at least you haven't been able to do your part, which is to back off and give her a comfortable space so she can open up to you. Detached is the opposite of loving, so you really can't expect a change from her when you are like this. Detached sends the worst message yet - I don't love you now because you won't have sex with me.


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

technovelist said:


> So to continue your analogy, a man who is feeling pressured into supporting his wife should be able to stop until he feels better about that. Right?


He should absolutely tell her that she's putting too much pressure on him. That she is being demanding rather than supportive. 

Should she expect to live in squalor? No. Should she expect to live in a mansion. Nope. Should her love for him be on a sliding scale based on how much he makes? Nope.

As for stopping, why would you want her to continue having sex with you when she doesn't want to? She's not your enemy just because she is LD! Work with her for goodness sake.

Lastly, if you really believe your signature line, then don't even bother trying to work with your LD spouse. Just leave her. You'll never make any progress if you really believe that.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

technovelist said:


> So to continue your analogy, a man who is feeling pressured into supporting his wife should be able to stop until he feels better about that. Right?


I guess it depends what he is trying to accomplish. But basically yes. I love you. I want to be married to you forever. But I want a marriage based on said love not on my ability to furnish you with new purses. I am taking over the finances in order to live within our means. If you want new purses, by all means, get a job.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

altawa said:


> Well, was it an overnight development? I highly doubt it was.....it almost never is. Which was my point, that it wasn't something that just happened overnight.
> 
> And, yes, it was a threat, absolutely. "IF we dont fix this, THEN I cannot stay like this". You set a condition/boundary, then a consequence for failure to meet the condition or breaking the boundary. Forewarning of those consequences is a threat.
> 
> Again, I don't see a problem with it, but call it for what it is.


I guess I thought I had. I am not sure what the problem is. :scratchhead:


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I am not sure where you get the overnight thing. It was not a quid pro quo. It was a statement of fact. If a person were to say sex or divorce without the REST of the conversation/activity, then yah all that would be accomplished would be divorce.
> 
> In my example, which is not a half bad one, *it was not a demand or a threat.* And it was part and parcel with, I love you. I want to be married to you forever. BUT *if we don't fix this I cannot stay like this.*





altawa said:


> Well, was it an overnight development? I highly doubt it was.....it almost never is. Which was my point, that it wasn't something that just happened overnight.
> 
> *And, yes, it was a threat, absolutely. * "IF we dont fix this, THEN I cannot stay like this". You set a condition/boundary, then a consequence for failure to meet the condition or breaking the boundary. Forewarning of those consequences is a threat.
> 
> Again, I don't see a problem with it, but *call it for what it is*.






NobodySpecial said:


> I guess I thought I had. I am not sure what the problem is. :scratchhead:


:scratchhead:

ETA: It doesn't really matter.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

altawa said:


> :scratchhead:
> 
> ETA: It doesn't really matter.


OK! It was a fact that was also a threat. Though its delivery was not intended to be further pressure. That is my point. Perhaps it was not an EMPTY threat. I guess you need the word threat. There.


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess I thought I had. I am not sure what the problem is. :scratchhead:


It's sad, actually, that so many HD people come on TAM to vent and vent rather than take away something they can use to help solve the issues in their marriage. There are so many of them who want to bash LD people outright.

If you go from pissed and frustrated to detached, as anonmd said he did, at what point was it safe for his partner to open up? At what point did he give her support and a bit of breathing room? 

Oh, well. We can give advice and perspective; it's up to others to take it or not.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

In the spirit of the title of the thread, here's what HD men need to know about LD women:

Figure it out early. Run away if you can. Resign yourself to your fate if you cannot. It doesn't matter the reason for the problem, unless you find yourself in an endless string of such relationships, whereupon you might need to point the finger at yourself. 

But make no mistake about it - your chances of changing the sexual dynamic in your relationship, no matter what you do, no matter that you have the patience of Job and the lifespan of Methuselah - are too low to use as encouragement. The number of couples who successfully navigate this problem to a mutually satisfying conclusion is depressingly low. 

Decide NOW how important it is to you and if you can live this way for the rest of your life, because you're a Vegas betting man's favorite to continue. That's not the cynic in me talking, that's the person who listens to what the sex counselors say in their candid moments.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

SurpriseMyself said:


> It's sad, actually, that so many HD people come on TAM to vent and vent rather than take away something they can use to help solve the issues in their marriage. There are so many of them who want to bash LD people outright.
> 
> If you go from pissed and frustrated to detached, as anonmd said he did, at what point was it safe for his partner to open up? At what point did he give her support and a bit of breathing room?
> 
> Oh, well. We can give advice and perspective; it's up to others to take it or not.


Because you are the self anointed bastion of knowledge? If marriages are a two way street, how did yours get to the point it is then? I mean, you should be the happiest person on earth.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Oh, well. We can give advice and perspective; it's up to others to take it or not.


The advice ought to at least have a long established track record of success with a significant population before we "take it". It's not at all clear that what you're suggesting applies to enough of us to be useful.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

Cletus said:


> In the spirit of the title of the thread, here's what HD men need to know about LD women:
> 
> Figure it out early. Run away if you can. Resign yourself to your fate if you cannot. It doesn't matter the reason for the problem, unless you find yourself in an endless string of such relationships, whereupon you might need to point the finger at yourself.
> 
> ...


Oh look, it's reality talking.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

SurpriseMyself said:


> It's sad, actually, that so many HD people come on TAM to vent and vent rather than take away something they can use to help solve the issues in their marriage. There are so many of them who want to bash LD people outright.
> 
> If you go from pissed and frustrated to detached, as anonmd said he did, at what point was it safe for his partner to open up? At what point did he give her support and a bit of breathing room?
> 
> Oh, well. We can give advice and perspective; it's up to others to take it or not.


The thing is, they might not be able to take anything useful away if they DON'T love their wives and want to support them and the growth of their marriage. There are people in the world who get married for no other reason than regular sex. Give it up, I'll pay the bills. Our advice will not help these people or their marriages.

You hear words like
expect
why do I have to

Not solution stuff. But quid pro quo stuff. Who needs understanding?


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

altawa said:


> Oh look, it's reality talking.


Let me add that once you come to true acceptance, you'll be much happier. Not necessarily about your sex life, but about the end to the constant internal and external struggle over it. 

You will in the end have fixed the only person whom you have the ability to fix.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> The thing is, they might not be able to take anything useful away if they DON'T love their wives and want to support them and the growth of their marriage. There are people in the world who get married for no other reason than regular sex. Give it up, I'll pay the bills. Our advice will not help these people or their marriages.
> 
> You hear words like
> expect
> ...


That's an awful self serving statement that anybody that doesn't take your advice doesn't love their wife. How is the air up on that pedestal?


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Cletus said:


> In the spirit of the title of the thread, here's what HD men need to know about LD women:
> 
> Figure it out early. Run away if you can. Resign yourself to your fate if you cannot. It doesn't matter the reason for the problem, unless you find yourself in an endless string of such relationships, whereupon you might need to point the finger at yourself.
> 
> ...


In a recent survey published in the Archives of Internal Medicine, more than one in three women admitted to experiencing low sexual desire in the past month. 

Are all of these women (40 million of them) simply LD now and forever? Or did toxic communication, emotional disconnection, being taken for granted or ignored, etc., perhaps contribute to at least some of that?

Again, if you want to just write off 1/3 of the women out there (plus probably many more who happily enjoy sex and are probably happily married to a sexed up man), then let's hope you find that special girl who does have sex with you.

There are some stories on TAM like that. There are also stories on TAM about couples who worked through there issues.

If there are any stories on TAM where the man put his foot down with his LD spouse, demanded x times per week, got it, and they are both happy now, I haven't found them. 

I also haven't found any stories on TAM where the issue was resolved while the HD partner was still bitter and blaming.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> In the spirit of the title of the thread, here's what HD men need to know about LD women:
> 
> Figure it out early. Run away if you can. Resign yourself to your fate if you cannot. It doesn't matter the reason for the problem,


I agree 500% with this. Do yourselves both a favor. LD should not be stuck married to someone who does not want to learn, think and grow toward a loving marriage.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

altawa said:


> That's an awful self serving statement that anybody that doesn't take your advice doesn't love their wife. How is the air up on that pedestal?


She found an answer that worked for her marriage. If you refuse to at least consider it, then maybe you don't love your wife. After all, you seem in need of a solution and can't find it, yet she's giving you one you won't take.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

deleted - too snarky!


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

SurpriseMyself said:


> She found an answer that worked for her marriage. If you refuse to at least consider it, then maybe you don't love your wife. After all, you seem in need of a solution and can't find it, yet she's giving you one you won't take.


You are seriously a narcissistic pair.....

Stop to consider that I have more information about my situation than any of you do, I know more about my wife than any of you do, I know more about myself than any of you do. I give the barest amount of information unless I am SEEKING a specific answer for something. 

So, for you or anybody else on this board to say that anybody that doesn't take your advice doesn't love their wife, that is just rude, insulting, and shows exactly what kind of character you really (don't) have.


----------



## larry.gray (Feb 21, 2011)

SurpriseMyself said:


> And this isn't about negotiation. Go back to the "for richer or poorer" comparison. If I said to you that you need to make $10,000 a month to meet my needs, would you feel that I loved you?


I clear that easily. Where do I sign up for my young, cute nypho who won't cheat on me?


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

NobodySpecial said:


> I agree 500% with this. Do yourselves both a favor. LD should not be stuck married to someone who does not want to learn, think and grow toward a loving marriage.


It absolutely is a two way street, and yes, you should run if it's not the right place for you.

I remember one time that I had started dating this guy. We had been on a few dates and had fun together. The first time we were intimate, he was really trying but it wasn't happening for me (meaning no O).

I told him that it was ok, that I've always had a difficult time having an O. He let out this big, exasperated sigh. Turns out his last girlfriend was that way.

Guess what. I got up, got dressed, walked out, and never returned a single call from him. He even left a flower for me that I did not acknowledge.

He was NOT my guy. Not because he wasn't wealthy, or a good lover, or anything like that, but because he showed me who he was. He was impatient and self centered. 

No thanks!!


----------



## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> He should absolutely tell her that she's putting too much pressure on him. That she is being demanding rather than supportive.
> 
> Should she expect to live in squalor? No. Should she expect to live in a mansion. Nope. Should her love for him be on a sliding scale based on how much he makes? Nope.
> 
> ...


I do believe it, but your conclusion is correct only if the LD spouse is unwilling to cooperate, as my thread about acceptable duty sex suggests.

Oh, and going by your analogy, the wife should expect ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the way of support, since the husband should expect ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the way of sex.


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

larry.gray said:


> I clear that easily. Where do I sign up for my young, cute nypho who won't cheat on me?


If that's all you want, there's plenty of banner ads for Asian women on the right side of the browser window. Or if you prefer Russians, they have those, too.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> In a recent survey published in the Archives of Internal Medicine, more than one in three women admitted to experiencing low sexual desire in the past month.


That's not a terribly useful statistic. I want to know how many of them experienced chronic low sexual desire over many months or years. What person, going to work, raising children, dealing with the mill of day-to-day life doesn't experience periodic dips in sexual desire?



> There are some stories on TAM like that. There are also stories on TAM about couples who worked through there issues.


Couples who are outnumbered 1000-1 by the stories of the couples where the man did precisely what you've advocated - and found that his mate was perfectly content to go months or years in the new normal - "Oh look! He stopped bugging me about sex. Awesome!".



> If there are any stories on TAM where the man put his foot down with his LD spouse, demanded x times per week, got it, and they are both happy now, I haven't found them.


Correct. For the majority of the people in this dilemma, there is no solution.


----------



## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Let me add that once you come to true acceptance, you'll be much happier. Not necessarily about your sex life, but about the end to the constant internal and external struggle over it.
> 
> You will in the end have *fixed* the only person whom you have the ability to fix.


Neutering seems like a drastic solution, but I suppose it would work.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

altawa said:


> That's an awful self serving statement that anybody that doesn't take your advice doesn't love their wife. How is the air up on that pedestal?


How does it serve me? I get nothing out of sharing my experiences. 

I don't know you from a hole in the wall and have no comment on how much you do or do not love your wife. I will assert that people who point and blame and resist any kind of solution might be doing so because they really DON'T care about how they are feeling. How could one if they just want to demand that the other comply?


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

technovelist said:


> I do believe it, but your conclusion is correct only if the LD spouse is unwilling to cooperate, as my thread about acceptable duty sex suggests.


My conclusion is correct only if the LD spouse is UNWILLING to cooperate? Not following.


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> I agree 500% with this. Do yourselves both a favor. LD should not be stuck married to someone who does not want to learn, think and grow toward a loving marriage.


HDs should not be married to someone with whom they are sexually incompatible. I don't have to make a derogatory inference about the LD's worth as a human being to understand that compatibility in the primary differentiating factor between a friendship and a marriage is vitally important.


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

altawa said:


> You are seriously a narcissistic pair.....
> 
> Stop to consider that I have more information about my situation than any of you do, I know more about my wife than any of you do, I know more about myself than any of you do. I give the barest amount of information unless I am SEEKING a specific answer for something.
> 
> So, for you or anybody else on this board to say that anybody that doesn't take your advice doesn't love their wife, that is just rude, insulting, and shows exactly what kind of character you really (don't) have.


This isn't about anyone's character. I simply see you as being defensive rather than asking questions about how to resolve the issue.

If you are seeking an answer, why do you keep coming back with defensiveness? Why aren't you listening?

You can't fix her, you can't change her. You can change how you are in response TO her. Respond with frustration and you'll get no where.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> The thing is, they might not be able to take anything useful away if they DON'T love their wives and want to support them and the growth of their marriage. There are people in the world who get married for no other reason than regular sex. Give it up, I'll pay the bills. Our advice will not help these people or their marriages.
> 
> You hear words like
> expect
> ...


Something else on this: I notice you never mention all the women who get married just to be taken care of, and cut off sex right after they say " I do". What of those women?


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Cletus said:


> HDs should not be married to someone with whom they are sexually incompatible. I don't have to make a derogatory inference about the LD's worth as a human being to understand that compatibility in the primary differentiating factor between a friendship and a marriage is vitally important.


Absolutely. And the same holds true for emotional intimacy/emotional compatibility.

If he's not interested in connecting emotionally and she is, then there's a mismatch. You can either work on it or you can leave.

I'll say it again: Affection cannot be demanded, and neither can sexual desire.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

SurpriseMyself said:


> This isn't about anyone's character. I simply see you as being defensive rather than asking questions about how to resolve the issue.
> 
> If you are seeking an answer, why do you keep coming back with defensiveness? Why aren't you listening?
> 
> You can't fix her, you can't change her. You can change how you are in response TO her. Respond with frustration and you'll get no where.


Where did I ask you or anybody else a question about it in the first place? I didn't. It's not defensiveness, it's a reaction to your arrogance. And, yes, it is about your character when you espouse what you say is the perfect advice then imply that anybody that doesnt take it doesnt love their wife.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

altawa said:


> Something else on this: I notice you never mention all the women who get married just to be taken care of, and cut off sex right after they say " I do". What of those women?


Dump them like a hot rock. Dead serious. The minute you know, you leave. Who would want that? I sure wouldn't if I were in that position.


----------



## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

altawa said:


> Something else on this: I notice you never mention all the women who get married just to be taken care of, and cut off sex right after they say " I do". What of those women?


I know one. Friend of my H, actually. I have no respect for her. Of course, he treats talks crap about her to his buddies. Not much fun to be around this couple.


----------



## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> How does it serve me? I get nothing out of sharing my experiences.
> 
> I don't know you from a hole in the wall *and have no comment on how much you do or do not love your wife.* I will assert that people who point and blame and resist any kind of solution might be doing so because they really DON'T care about how they are feeling. How could one if they just want to demand that the other comply?


Your own words betray you.


NobodySpecial said:


> The thing is, *they might not be able to take anything useful away if they DON'T love their wives* and want to support them and the growth of their marriage. There are people in the world who get married for no other reason than regular sex. Give it up, I'll pay the bills. Our advice will not help these people or their marriages.
> 
> You hear words like
> expect
> ...


----------



## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Absolutely. And the same holds true for emotional intimacy/emotional compatibility.
> 
> If he's not interested in connecting emotionally and she is, then there's a mismatch. You can either work on it or you can leave.
> 
> I'll say it again: Affection cannot be demanded, and neither can sexual desire.


And I'll say it again: lack of affection can certainly remove sexual interest, but affection provided cannot manufacture it where it does not exist. 

Over the span of years, you don't have much influence to increase your partners innate interest in sex, regardless of what you do. Never make the mistake of thinking you will succeed, even while understanding your role in not making it worse.


----------



## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

altawa said:


> Your own words betray you.


I don't know what makes you think I was talking about you. I have been on this board for a while. Anyway, have a nice day. Bye bye.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

altawa said:


> Where did I ask you or anybody else a question about it in the first place? I didn't. It's not defensiveness, it's a reaction to your arrogance. And, yes, it is about your character when you espouse what you say is the perfect advice then imply that anybody that doesnt take it doesnt love their wife.


My goodness. The "perfect" advice, I said? Man, I feel like I'm talking to my H when he gets mad. Not good. 

And to say that you didn't ask me a question, yet you are posting on the thread I started is really bizarre. You are seeking answers, but don't ask questions? You put down what you don't like that LD people post rather than listen and learn. 

I think you are defensive and angry. If I suggest that you aren't willing to at least try A solution (not the "perfect advice"), then maybe you are really just here to vent and not solve. 

Only you know.

And if you are here to just vent, please do it on your own thread.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

NobodySpecial said:


> That is just sad.
> 
> 
> That is even sadder. That attitude is self fulfilling IMO. If you don't expect a win/win, if you don't even think a win/win is possible, you won't seek it.


the only people who talk about 'win win' are self help shills or liars.


----------



## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Negotiated to a win/win.
> 
> But sex isn't like that.


I object to your lefthandedness. I want to bargain about how much lefthandedness you exhibit. Or I will continue to be very very unhappy. 

What's your move?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> My conclusion is correct only if the LD spouse is UNWILLING to cooperate? Not following.


If the LD spouse is willing to provide acceptable duty sex (as defined on my thread), then it is on the HD to accept that. If the LD spouse is unwilling to do that, then it is on the LD to change.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Runs like Dog said:


> I object to your lefthandedness. I want to bargain about how much lefthandedness you exhibit. Or I will continue to be very very unhappy.
> 
> What's your move?


I see what you are saying, but I'm not saying don't be HD. I'm saying that if you want more sex and stay married to your LD partner, then you need to come at this from a place of understanding and not frustration. 

If you truly don't believe she will ever be different, or that she has no interest in being so, then you should move on.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't know what makes you think I was talking about you. I have been on this board for a while. Anyway, have a nice day. Bye bye.


Oh, I think that is obvious to anybody reading.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> If there are any stories on TAM where the man put his foot down with his LD spouse, demanded x times per week, got it, and they are both happy now, I haven't found them.


I haven't seen any stories like that on TAM, but I can tell you that does happen sometimes. Of course that is not the ideal outcome, but it is a lot better than most of the stories I read here about mismatched drives.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Cletus said:


> HDs should not be married to someone with whom they are sexually incompatible. I don't have to make a derogatory inference about the LD's worth as a human being to understand that compatibility in the primary differentiating factor between a friendship and a marriage is vitally important.


I don't know your story. If you are married to someone whose drive is really incompatible to yours, well that just sucks. BUT taking my example. What do you suppose that looked like to DH? I can promise you that neither of us was making the connection between our growing resentment at the time and the lack of sex. *I* couldn't explain it until someone on usenet whacked my upside the head with a clue-by-four. We were only a few years in. I imagine the confusion would only be greater if it lasted longer.

So look at it again. What did DH know at the time. He would talk at me, needing, pleading, cajoling, discussing. All of it made both of us feel WORSE. I felt pushed, only valued for my va jay jay. He felt rejected and unloved. What do you suppose it looked like to him? That I was LD or worse not into him.

Guess what? When I went to usenet, *I* was not complaining about lack of sex. *I* was complaining about feeling disrespected and unappreciated. If I had not said, why is he always pestering me for sex, and some poster didn't say Woa girl, full stop on me, we'd be divorced now. I would not be able to HEAR him when he talked to me in that serious conversation about not staying in a sexless marriage. We would be fighting over who was walking away as we left.

One more thing. The fact that he WASN'T going to put up with it forever, and came at me in a loving and caring way, but in a firm way, actually UPPED my attraction for him.

Take it or leave it


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> So until your libido went down, you were pissed off and frustrated? Did you talk it through with her? And now you are able to be detached rather than pissed off and frustrated?


Maybe frustrated, then pissed off is a better way to describe it. For years I was constantly frustrated which would frequently build to pissed off and really really hurt. At that point I would detach and stop pursuing to lower the pain level, pursue other things for myself, hobbies or whatever. I don't disagree, we should have communicated or even had a giant blow out argument, lay it on the line and put divorce on the table. But I took my commitment seriously.




> Detached is the opposite of loving, so you really can't expect a change from her when you are like this. Detached sends the worst message yet - I don't love you now because you won't have sex with me.


Or I love you so much I will do what I need to do to remain in this crappy state for a few more years. 



> Sounds like you haven't really been able to get to the root of the issues yet. Or at least you haven't been able to do your part, which is to back off and give her a comfortable space so she can open up to you.


In progress for a couple years now. It is NOT easy. It worked for a while, she backslid for a while and we are currently working through additional issues related to menopause. We are communicating more, it needs to be better. The periods of contentment are a little longer, the periods of being merely frustrated are longer. I do get to pissed off from time to time but I refuse to go to detachment now. Both because I am able to and because the next time may be the end...


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Runs like Dog said:


> I object to your lefthandedness. I want to bargain about how much lefthandedness you exhibit. Or I will continue to be very very unhappy.
> 
> What's your move?


Pop you in the mouth with a right hook.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

technovelist said:


> If the LD spouse is willing to provide acceptable duty sex (as defined on my thread), then it is on the HD to accept that. If the LD spouse is unwilling to do that, then it is on the LD to change.


Why settle for such low expectations in life? Why put the bar so low?

If I knew my H would never connect with me emotionally, but I accepted that he was willing to schedule it into his day and do his best to pretend, I think I would die a slow death inside.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> So, two (really 3) questions came in to my mind.
> 
> 1. Does she understand why she is LD? If so, did you help her with that process or did she at least share with you what she came to understand about why?


In her mind she is perfectly normal. I'm the one that has the problem, so there is nothing to understand. I know this will sound a bit snarky, but it annoys her greatly if I try to confuse that belief with facts.





SurpriseMyself said:


> 2. Do you know what turns her on? And by that, I mean what kind of man gets her motor running. Not physically, but personality wise.


Haven't the first clue. Once again, she considers herself perfectly normal. If I continue in the same pattern I was in when she was the happiest, I think she would happily live the rest of her life with me. 

I have asked her many, many times, what can I do for you? What do you want from me? No promise to change, but if I could and not become someone I'm not, I would try. 

But here's the odd thing. On the (very) rare occasions when we are intimate, she seems to have a really great time. 2, 3 sometimes even 4 orgasms. But at no time in the process, except as she peaks, does she ever move or make a sound. She is never actually there emotionally.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

SurpriseMyself said:


> My goodness. The "perfect" advice, I said? Man, I feel like I'm talking to my H when he gets mad. Not good.
> 
> And to say that you didn't ask me a question, yet you are posting on the thread I started is really bizarre. You are seeking answers, but don't ask questions? You put down what you don't like that LD people post rather than listen and learn.
> 
> ...


Fine....please quote the post where I asked you a question about how to fix my problems. In fact, I specifically said I wasn't going into my issues on this thread. But, please, go find it. Go ahead, I will wait.

In the mean time, since I know that post isn't coming, you call me defensive and angry, I counter that you are narcissistic and arrogant. I suggest that you are no expert on the subject, and nobody is obligated to take any of your advice. And, just because you offer it, doesn't make it right. Maybe so many people don't take it because, as was suggested earlier, it is bunk in the larger scale of the global population.



SurpriseMyself said:


> It's sad, actually, that so many HD people come on TAM to vent and vent rather than take away something they can use to help solve the issues in their marriage. There are so many of them who want to bash LD people outright.
> 
> If you go from pissed and frustrated to detached, as anonmd said he did, at what point was it safe for his partner to open up? At what point did he give her support and a bit of breathing room?
> 
> Oh, well. We can give advice and perspective; it's up to others to take it or not.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

CopperTop said:


> In her mind she is perfectly normal. I'm the one that has the problem, so there is nothing to understand. I know this will sound a bit snarky, but it annoys her greatly if I try to confuse that belief with facts.


I am not trying to be mean. The assumption with this particular thread is that both parties are actually interested in each other and have some degree of mental health. Your wife is more interested in right fighting. I don't know if you are. But as long as she is more interested in being right than in you, then there are no solutions to this or any other marital issue.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Why settle for such low expectations in life? Why put the bar so low?
> 
> If I knew my H would never connect with me emotionally, but I accepted that he was willing to schedule it into his day and do his best to pretend, I think I would die a slow death inside.


That's up to you, of course. However, for at least some people that is a better alternative than any other on offer. Considering this thread is about LD/HD mismatches, I would say it is probably one of the best outcomes that can be expected in that unfortunate situation.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

anonmd said:


> Maybe frustrated, then pissed off is a better way to describe it. For years I was constantly frustrated which would frequently build to pissed off and really really hurt. At that point I would detach and stop pursuing to lower the pain level, pursue other things for myself, hobbies or whatever. I don't disagree, we should have communicated or even had a giant blow out argument, lay it on the line and put divorce on the table. But I took my commitment seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I applaud that you are trying, but you sound a lot like my H in that for years he said he's committed to our marriage yet he didn't bring up issues. Seriously, we haven't had sex in 7 years and he doesn't even mention it. And I've never rejected him!! I simply told him that I've been hurt by men who say they love you and then leave when the sex stops. That because of that (and some other things), I have low sexual desire.

He latched onto that and decided he would never initiate sex with me as he didn't want to have sex with someone who didn't want to.

But the irony is that I didn't tell him that so we wouldn't have sex!! I told him that so he would understand me! It was the beginning, I had hoped, of sharing with him so we could become even more connected and so I could move past some of my issues with sexuality.

From his perspective, he's committed. From my perspective, he's just scared. Staying is not the same thing as being committed. In fact, if you stay but never work on anything, it's kinda nuts in my view. 

In truth, he is afraid of rejection, he's afraid of emotions, and he's afraid of working on himself and us. His unwillingness to work on anything with me has shut down any possibility for us for so long that I don't feel anything for him now.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

CopperTop said:


> In her mind she is perfectly normal. I'm the one that has the problem, so there is nothing to understand. I know this will sound a bit snarky, but it annoys her greatly if I try to confuse that belief with facts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh, Copper. No! Seriously, she just lies there? I am so sorry. That is awful. 

I think you may need to pack your things and go, my friend. And this from an admitted (although not always and hopefully not permanently) LD!!!


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

altawa said:


> Fine....please quote the post where I asked you a question about how to fix my problems. In fact, I specifically said I wasn't going into my issues on this thread. But, please, go find it. Go ahead, I will wait.
> 
> In the mean time, since I know that post isn't coming, you call me defensive and angry, I counter that you are narcissistic and arrogant. I suggest that you are no expert on the subject, and nobody is obligated to take any of your advice. And, just because you offer it, doesn't make it right. Maybe so many people don't take it because, as was suggested earlier, it is bunk in the larger scale of the global population.


Wow! You are my H! It's no wonder our marriage in such shambles. 

And we are back to why are all the LD posters run off of SIM .... because when we offer solutions, we get called names? Maybe?


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Wow! You are my H! It's no wonder our marriage in such shambles.
> 
> And we are back to why are all the LD posters run off of SIM .... because when we offer solutions, we get called names? Maybe?


Oh, so we are on to one way streets, where it is ok for you to call me names, but nothing can head back your way.

Love that double standard you have.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

SurpriseMyself...I can appreciate your thread (and I'm sorry you are getting bashed around, it is so silly)...but I also want to chime in and say that the title alone is very off putting.

HD/LD are such varied and individual issues. "What HD men need to know about LD women" implies there is some kind of across the board application of these issues to all HD men and all LD women, and that just isn't the case.

I think it hurts the whole topic to try to paint people with one brush.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening technovelist
I think the form of the offer of "duty sex" is all important. There is a huge difference between:

"If you insist, I'll let you have sex with me. It will be a chore, but if that is what it takes, I guess I can put up with it".

and

"I'd be happy to do things to please you. I love you and enjoy making you happy"







technovelist said:


> If the LD spouse is willing to provide acceptable duty sex (as defined on my thread), then it is on the HD to accept that. If the LD spouse is unwilling to do that, then it is on the LD to change.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> SurpriseMyself...I can appreciate your thread (and I'm sorry you are getting bashed around, it is so silly)...but I also want to chime in and say that the title alone is very off putting.
> 
> HD/LD are such varied and individual issues. "What HD men need to know about LD women" implies there is some kind of across the board application of these issues to all HD men and all LD women, and that just isn't the case.
> 
> I think it hurts the whole topic to try to paint people with one brush.


That wasn't my intention, although I will say that it was at least a little bit in response to the alternate labels thread that bashed up one side and down the other.

Why someone is LD is not the same in all cases, but I suspect my explanation is true for a lot of women. That was my point.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> SurpriseMyself...I can appreciate your thread (and I'm sorry you are getting bashed around, it is so silly)...but I also want to chime in and say that the title alone is very off putting.
> 
> HD/LD are such varied and individual issues. "What HD men need to know about LD women" implies there is some kind of across the board application of these issues to all HD men and all LD women, and that just isn't the case.
> 
> I think it hurts the whole topic to try to paint people with one brush.


I agree with this. That said, if a person finds themselves in this situation as the HD, there are important take aways regardless of the root cause.

There is evidence that talking, pressuring, demanding and requesting compliance don't work.

There is evidence that what looks like a drive issue (biology) might be something else. This is worth a thought to make that determination.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

One more thing I learned from my experience. I did not really adequately understand how important sex is to some people, in my case my man, from an acceptance perspective and that no did not mean just absence of doing but rejection of him. That was useful information for me. And it took some HEAVY clue-by-four to get that through.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> That wasn't my intention, although I will say that it was at least a little bit in response to the alternate labels thread that bashed up one side and down the other.
> 
> Why someone is LD isn't not the same in all cases, but I suspect my explanation is true for a lot of women. That was my point.


I think if the title was more like "here's the main reason I became LD" then it would have been better received....but the guys who are going to bash LD women are going to find them everywhere on TAM and bash them regardless so...sorry about that. It sucks.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Faithful Wife said:


> I think if the title was more like "here's the main reason I became LD" then it would have been better received....but the guys who are going to bash LD women are going to find them everywhere on TAM and bash them regardless so...sorry about that. It sucks.


We need a smart board that every time someone uses the word men or women we prepend SOME to it.


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## DoneWithHurting (Feb 4, 2015)

My wife told me all about her long time married friends who went LD and couldn't care less about sex to defend her LD stance.

She neglected to mention one other friend who was very LD... got divorced... and now has a new boyfriend and she has surprisingly become quite HD.

Go figure.

My take? Most LD folk are selfish.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

DoneWithHurting said:


> My wife told me all about her long time married friends who went LD and couldn't care less about sex to defend her LD stance.
> 
> She neglected to mention one other friend who was very LD... got divorced... and now has a new boyfriend and she has surprisingly become quite HD.
> 
> ...


How well is tat take helping you? Dead serious here.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Someone has to move first. I suppose we are lucky that one of us always did eventually. 

Frequently it was me after 2, 3 or 4 months, I knew I could always chase her around the house for a couple days and she'd give in at some point over a few days. Once, then it was at least another month because even if it was fabulous she'd need "time to recover"

There was once I debated divorce in my mind, decided I didn't want to give up my workshop (!!). That one went about 6 months, she thawed the ice that time.

When I decided this had to end a few years ago I began by merely insisting on a more passionate kiss on a daily basis. Eventually we had a bit of an explosively emotional (tears and what not) discussion which seemed to shake her off "as little as I can get away with". 




SurpriseMyself said:


> I applaud that you are trying, but you sound a lot like my H in that for years he said he's committed to our marriage yet he didn't bring up issues. Seriously, we haven't had sex in 7 years and he doesn't even mention it. And I've never rejected him!! I simply told him that I've been hurt by men who say they love you and then leave when the sex stops. That because of that (and some other things), I have low sexual desire.
> 
> He latched onto that and decided he would never initiate sex with me as he didn't want to have sex with someone who didn't want to.
> 
> ...


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

NobodySpecial said:


> We need a smart board that every time someone uses the word men or women we prepend SOME to it.


Great suggestion that I will try to do - be my own smart board.:smthumbup:


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> One more thing I learned from my experience. I did not really adequately understand how important sex is to some people, in my case my man, from an acceptance perspective and that no did not mean just absence of doing but rejection of him. That was useful information for me. And it took some HEAVY clue-by-four to get that through.


You claimed to be HD in another thread, so are you HD or LD?


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening technovelist
> I think the form of the offer of "duty sex" is all important. There is a huge difference between:
> 
> "If you insist, I'll let you have sex with me. It will be a chore, but if that is what it takes, I guess I can put up with it".
> ...


Obviously the latter is better than the former. However, each person has to make his or her own determination of what is acceptable. In any event, even if the LD partner considers it a chore, it is possible to do chores with a pleasant attitude rather than begrudgingly. In my opinion, that goes a long way toward making it acceptable even if it is obvious that they aren't into it the way the HD partner is.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

anonmd said:


> Someone has to move first. I suppose we are lucky that one of us always did eventually.
> 
> Frequently it was me after 2, 3 or 4 months, I knew I could always chase her around the house for a couple days and she'd give in at some point over a few days. Once, then it was at least another month because even if it was fabulous she'd need "time to recover"
> 
> ...


We are talking about different things. I think you responded to my sharing that my H doesn't initiate, but what I mean by working on things isn't initiating more or chasing her around until she gives in. 

I hope you also tried to understand why she is this way and help her with the underlying issue.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Anonymous07 said:


> You claimed to be HD in another thread, so are you HD or LD?


Married 20+ years. My "drive" was never the issue, though that is what we attributed it to. Many, many years ago, I looked like an LD wife. That is what DH and I attributed it to. Which flew in the face of our previous history. But there it is. Problems + solutions = sex life restored.


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## altawa (Jan 4, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> Married 20+ years. My "drive" was never the issue, though that is what we attributed it to. Many, many years ago, I looked like an LD wife. That is what DH and I attributed it to. Which flew in the face of our previous history. But there it is. Problems + solutions = sex life restored.


This post almost sounds like you used sex as a weapon to get what you wanted. That you werent LD, but it 'looked' like you were.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

altawa said:


> This post almost sounds like you used sex as a weapon to get what you wanted. That you werent LD, but it 'looked' like you were.


Drive is certainly what I thought the problem was at the time. Glad we learned better. We are much happier for it.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

This article points to pieces of what I've been saying, particularly the Treatment page.

Inhibited Sexual Desire: Factors, Diagnosis & Treatments


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

It's also important to note that there are 23 FDA-approved treatments on the market to help men with ED and low testosterone. There are 0 for women. So if her issue is physical or chemical, it won't be easy to fix. In fact, you'd be better off if it were due to her past or your relationship. At least there's therapy!!


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

great spirited debate, batman!

I think that the advise given here by LD are valuable for a certain sub-set of couples dealing with this issue, especially younger ones (though not exclusively). I think part of the frustration expressed here has to do with the fact that many peoples' experience include having been through every possible cycle of talking, backing off, being patient, giving space, detaching, you name it.........and come up with nothing or almost nothing. Over and over again. And the inference that they haven't tried it or haven't tried it enough.

A great many LD spouses are simply intractable and utterly immune to any of these solutions. I know that some of the posters here have given acknowledgement to this, but there still seems to be a undertone of dismissal.

Still, even though I am not in this situation, I can gleam valuable insights applicable to even healthy relationships.

Plus were hearing from LD people, and that's important, no matter what we think of their opinions.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jorgegene said:


> A great many LD spouses are simply intractable and utterly immune to any of these solutions.


A great many HD spouses are simply intractable and utterly immune to any of these solutions.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening surprisemyself
Some of the HD posters here have given their partners years or even decades of support "breathing room"

There are lots of different situations. It is not always the HDs pestering for sex. Sometimes it is HDs that have spent significant fractions of their lives doing everything they can for their partners, and now trying to decide if there is any hope. 



SurpriseMyself said:


> snip
> If you go from pissed and frustrated to detached, as anonmd said he did, at what point was it safe for his partner to open up? At what point did he give her support and a bit of breathing room?
> 
> Oh, well. We can give advice and perspective; it's up to others to take it or not.


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## Cedar (Apr 2, 2015)

Great thread , Great posts...
one fact remains ; pain resulting from sex deprivation can never be felt by an LD spouse ; they just don't feel it ; it is like when some people lent for milk but they never like milk .

a male or female spouse deprived from sex feel abused , neglected betrayed.

I felt this for many years,but now i came to a better "formula"...
which is never talk about sex ... but initiate it .

The point is that love making between partners is a very sacred relation ;when one of them has to say I feel aroused , puff all is gone ....

they should feel each other ; live the exitment , get aroused even with simple things ....

the mistake men do is that they talk about their needs ; but at the same time if the spouse won't move her ... in weeks or more , then what do you expect from the partner , Wait for Godot ? holding a carrot ?!

when a partner becomes obliged to talk about love making ...

then forget about love ; and welcome some deals that may or may not work in exchanging favors ...


I beleive the root cause is compatibility ; where expect one day in the future to have a compatibility test to be run between partners to confirm their elligibility ....


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

jorgegene said:


> great spirited debate, batman!
> 
> I think that the advise given here by LD are valuable for a certain sub-set of couples dealing with this issue, especially younger ones (though not exclusively). I think part of the frustration expressed here has to do with the fact that many peoples' experience include having been through every possible cycle of talking, backing off, being patient, giving space, detaching, you name it.........and come up with nothing or almost nothing. Over and over again. And the inference that they haven't tried it or haven't tried it enough.
> 
> ...


There may be intractable LD spouses, but it seems there are also many intractable HD spouses who keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. 

Unhelpful behaviors from the HD: 

Initiating more
Demanding sex or else
Being frustrated, angry, bitter
Thinking the LD SO is just selfish, trying to gain the upper hand, etc. 

Unhelpful behaviors from the LD:

Not wanting to talk about the problem
Not trying to understand the other's point of view
Saying the HD spouse can masturbate if needed
Refusing to get help
Saying the HD spouse has a sex addition/problem


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

Faithful Wife said:


> A great many HD spouses are simply intractable and utterly immune to any of these solutions.


absolutely 

thought that would be obvious, but maybe not...........


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening surprisemyself
> Some of the HD posters here have given their partners years or even decades of support "breathing room"
> 
> There are lots of different situations. It is not always the HDs pestering for sex. Sometimes it is HDs that have spent significant fractions of their lives doing everything they can for their partners, and now trying to decide if there is any hope.


I hear you, but I'm not talking about decades of breathing room. In fact, my H has given that to me and it has been a HUGE mistake on his part.

And I'm NOT talking about the HD doing everything they can for their partners. Again, big mistake! 

I'm talking about the HD and LD sitting down and discussing this once and for all. It's an issue, let's address it. The HD must come without anger or bitterness. The LD must respond without defensiveness or deflection. Get the problem out in the open and address it directly. 

Being stuck, like you described, is awful! I hate stuck!!!


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

jorgegene said:


> absolutely
> 
> thought that would be obvious, but maybe not...........


No, nothing around here will be obvious to all. Most people here (especially in SIM) only see things from their own lens.


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## jorgegene (May 26, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> There may be intractable LD spouses, but it seems there are also many intractable HD spouses who keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
> 
> Unhelpful behaviors from the HD:
> 
> ...


good summary


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening all
The posters here, LD or HD, are the ones who CARE about their sex lives. In general they are not the problem. It is their partners who do not care, and who therefore don't join discussions like this who ARE the problem. 

Most of the posters are dealing with partners who are not trying to fix things. They react negatively to the suggestion that it is their (the poster's) fault.


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> I guess it depends what he is trying to accomplish. But basically yes. I love you. I want to be married to you forever. But I want a marriage based on said love not on my ability to furnish you with new purses. I am taking over the finances in order to live within our means. If you want new purses, by all means, get a job.


Great thoughts. However, the purses can be obtained other ways. The woman could get a job, yes. Her sister could buy her one as a gift. She could go steal the purse. Whatever.

Sex is different. The HD person has no other way to obtain sex unless they are willing to masturbate, have an affair or hire a prostitute. And they don't want to do those things because their spouse is the one they want to have sex with.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Great thoughts. However, the purses can be obtained other ways. The woman could get a job, yes. Her sister could buy her one as a gift. She could go steal the purse. Whatever.
> 
> Sex is different. The HD person has no other way to obtain sex unless they are willing to masturbate, have an affair or hire a prostitute. And they don't want to do those things because their spouse is the one they want to have sex with.


Reminds me of when I told my H that I need emotional connection. That to me, it leads to love, and without it I won't feel love. He said that women connect to each other emotionally, and that most men find emotional connection to feel foreign to them!


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## Hopeful Cynic (Apr 27, 2014)

Married but Happy said:


> Cletus said:
> 
> 
> > Let me add that once you come to true acceptance, you'll be much happier. Not necessarily about your sex life, but about the end to the constant internal and external struggle over it.
> ...


Okay, I know that was meant to be humourous, but it DOES point out something to me that is one of the cruxes of this argument.

HD people complain that their LD partner won't have sex with them as often as they would like. HD person wants the LD person to change.

LD people complain that their HD partner is always pestering them for sex when they don't want it. LD person wants the HD person to change.

The problem is clearly mismatched libido.

There is no reliable medication that will improve low sex drive. There IS medication that will REDUCE high sex drive. Why is a solution not for the HD person to take this medication, to bring the mismatched libidos more into alignment?

Oh yeah, because the HD person doesn't see themselves as the problem, and they don't want to be turned into someone they're not.

And do you know what? If there WAS medication to increase sex drive, the LD person probably wouldn't want to take it either.


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## EntirelyDifferent (Nov 30, 2012)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> And do you know what? If there WAS medication to increase sex drive, the LD person probably wouldn't want to take it either.


Honestly, I wouldn't want to.


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

You're right, HC, but there will always be some exceptions who WOULD be happy to take a drug to solve their problem.

So, there is no good solution in most cases. A mismatch is a mismatch, and trying to force a relationship to work that way is a constant source of frustration and emotional pain.

So what HD and LD people need to know is that they are one or the other, and learn to avoid getting involved with each other. Both will be happier if they can find someone closer to their own level. That may help prevent some new mismatches, but doesn't do much for existing ones. They either have to live with it as best they can, or break up (and that is - IMO - often the better solution).


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> Okay, I know that was meant to be humourous, but it DOES point out something to me that is one of the cruxes of this argument.
> 
> HD people complain that their LD partner won't have sex with them as often as they would like. HD person wants the LD person to change.
> 
> ...


I think it comes down to degrees and whether they can meet somewhere in the middle.

If one partner wants it once every two weeks and the other wants it every day, they may not be able to find a compromise.

But if one partner wants it 3x a week and the other wants it 1x a week, then maybe they can find middle ground.

If people are too far apart, or there's no room for negotiation one one side or both, then you have an issue.

And it also matters HOW you discuss this. I'll refer back to my earlier list of unhelpful behaviors that HD/LD folks often engage in. And keep in mind that those unhelpful behaviors often create a downward spiral. He initiates. She rejects. He says he needs sex. She doesn't understand his view, he gets frustrated, she responds by withdrawing more, he responds with anger, she responds by telling him he has a problem, he responds with she doesn't care. 

Someone has to be mature enough to stop the downward spiral and attempt a straightforward, honest discussion.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Married but Happy said:


> You're right, HC, but there will always be some exceptions who WOULD be happy to take a drug to solve their problem.
> 
> So, there is no good solution in most cases. A mismatch is a mismatch, and trying to force a relationship to work that way is a constant source of frustration and emotional pain.
> 
> So what HD and LD people need to know is that they are one or the other, and learn to avoid getting involved with each other. Both will be happier if they can find someone closer to their own level. That may help prevent some new mismatches, but doesn't do much for existing ones. They either have to live with it as best they can, or break up (and that is - IMO - often the better solution).


I think that you are either one or the other is a bit simplistic. There's plenty of women who HAD drive before kids and work and stress and relationship issues or [insert issue here] pulled down her libido. Now, I was never high drive, but I gladly had sex a few times a week before all the crap happened in my relationship.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> There is no reliable medication that will improve low sex drive. There IS medication that will REDUCE high sex drive. Why is a solution not for the HD person to take this medication, to bring the mismatched libidos more into alignment?
> 
> Oh yeah, because the HD person doesn't see themselves as the problem, and they don't want to be turned into someone they're not.


What medication are you referring to, anti-depressants?


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> What medication are you referring to, anti-depressants?


There are anti-depressants out there that lower libido. An HD spouse who is sexually frustrated is probably depressed, too! Problem solved!

I can't imagine any HD person would take that route voluntarily. Nor should they!


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## Anonymous07 (Aug 4, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> There are anti-depressants out there that lower libido. An HD spouse who is sexually frustrated is probably depressed, too! Problem solved!
> 
> I can't imagine any HD person would take that route voluntarily. Nor should they!


Anti-depressents don't always lower libido. It depends on how that person's body reacts to that medication and everyone is different. Most women have a lower libido while breastfeeding and don't get their period back for at least several months. I never lost my libido and got my period back at 7 weeks postpartum. I breastfed for a year and a half, but it never got in the way of wanting sex. My body reacts differently. There is no medication meant to lower libido.


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## woundedwarrior (Dec 9, 2011)

Not feeling loved like a spouse, by your spouse is the ultimate libido killer, no drugs necessary.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I'm talking about the HD and LD sitting down and discussing this once and for all. It's an issue, let's address it. The HD must come without anger or bitterness. The LD must respond without defensiveness or deflection. Get the problem out in the open and address it directly.
> 
> Being stuck, like you described, is awful! I hate stuck!!!


And yet, this the reality for some.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

SomebodySpecial,

If you keep posting stuff this good I may use my Mod superpowers to change your screen name to the one (above) I have adopted for you.

The other day I referenced: 4 C's that impact your sex life. 

Communication 
Commitment
Compatibility
Contact (the way non sexual touch helps or hurts desire)

I debated for quite some time about a 5th C, compassion. 

You just got me to the tipping point. Compassion is big. 

Just being honest here, I've never been offered and wouldn't accept pity sex. Have gotten a LOT of compassionate sex from M2. 

And in reverse I've never initiated or gotten whiney, sulked when M2 is in distress - physically or emotionally. 

I've genuinely tried to be as understanding of her LD as she is of my HD. 




QUOTE=NobodySpecial;12338026]I don't know your story. If you are married to someone whose drive is really incompatible to yours, well that just sucks. BUT taking my example. What do you suppose that looked like to DH? I can promise you that neither of us was making the connection between our growing resentment at the time and the lack of sex. *I* couldn't explain it until someone on usenet whacked my upside the head with a clue-by-four. We were only a few years in. I imagine the confusion would only be greater if it lasted longer.

So look at it again. What did DH know at the time. He would talk at me, needing, pleading, cajoling, discussing. All of it made both of us feel WORSE. I felt pushed, only valued for my va jay jay. He felt rejected and unloved. What do you suppose it looked like to him? That I was LD or worse not into him.

Guess what? When I went to usenet, *I* was not complaining about lack of sex. *I* was complaining about feeling disrespected and unappreciated. If I had not said, why is he always pestering me for sex, and some poster didn't say Woa girl, full stop on me, we'd be divorced now. I would not be able to HEAR him when he talked to me in that serious conversation about not staying in a sexless marriage. We would be fighting over who was walking away as we left.

One more thing. The fact that he WASN'T going to put up with it forever, and came at me in a loving and caring way, but in a firm way, actually UPPED my attraction for him.

Take it or leave it[/QUOTE]


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

It's clear to me at least that focusing on the HD/LD individuals is to completely miss the point of the problem.

It's a systems problem. LD people are not broken (except when they are, minor quibble). They inhabit one end of the human sexuality spectrum. Just like the HD folks (who can also be broken). But let's just discuss the great unwashed masses that conform to the normal distribution of human sexuality. 

It's akin to getting the wolf and the sheep to lie down together. Anyone wanting to be in such a relationship is welcome to it, as long as they don't believe the wolf will spontaneously turn into a sheep.


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening Surprisemyself
I almost completely agree.

Often though the HD cannot avoid feeling frustrated / angry / bitter. They can try to hide it with varying levels of success, but they may not be able to change their feelings.

Similarly the LD may just not be able to talk calmly about the subject. They may want to, but have various issues that make it extremely difficult to talk.




SurpriseMyself said:


> There may be intractable LD spouses, but it seems there are also many intractable HD spouses who keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
> 
> Unhelpful behaviors from the HD:
> 
> ...


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

Are we now to characterize LDs and HDs as furries?


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> There are anti-depressants out there that lower libido. An HD spouse who is sexually frustrated is probably depressed, too! Problem solved!
> 
> I can't imagine any HD person would take that route voluntarily. Nor should they!


You are right that some anti-d's do lower it, but you aren't using good health sense to go on anti-d's for a reason they are not prescribed for. This doesn't make sense.

As to your point though, there was a time when I wished there was a drug prescribed to lower libido because I would have taken it just so I would not have felt so sexually frustrated all the time.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening Surprisemyself
> I almost completely agree.
> 
> Often though the HD cannot avoid feeling frustrated / angry / bitter. They can try to hide it with varying levels of success, but they may not be able to change their feelings.
> ...


I appreciate how difficult it is! I made that list by thinking about my failed requests to my H for emotional connection. He's the LD one there and I'm the HD one. It was easy to write up, as I have lived it.

Professional help is often required!!


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Unhelpful behaviors from the LD:
> 
> Refusing to get help


What did you mean by this?


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
I agree - but sometimes it just doesn't seem possible to talk. The viewpoints are so horribly different.

HD: "It would be really nice if we could be intimate more often".
LD: "But I've been really tired"
HD:"but you climbed K2 last week"
LD: [Angry - useful conversation ends]

or
HD: "It would be really nice if we could be intimate more often".
LD: "But I've been really tired"
HD: "I'm really sorry. Maybe we can just relax this weekend and rest"
LD: "that would be nice"
[repeat with no change every few months]



From many discussions, a common (not universal!) LD response is to give an "excuse" for not wanting sex, rather than addressing the base lack of desire. Pointing out the the excuse doesn't make sense is hostile and prevents further conversation. The alternate of accepting the excuse ends the discussion. 

I know this sounds like blaming - I really don't mean to, it is just what it feels like. (having had both versions of this conversation)







SurpriseMyself said:


> snip
> I'm talking about the HD and LD sitting down and discussing this once and for all. It's an issue, let's address it. The HD must come without anger or bitterness. The LD must respond without defensiveness or deflection. Get the problem out in the open and address it directly.
> 
> Being stuck, like you described, is awful! I hate stuck!!!


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## richardsharpe (Jul 8, 2014)

Good evening
There have been posters asking about this. I've thought about it.




SurpriseMyself said:


> There are anti-depressants out there that lower libido. An HD spouse who is sexually frustrated is probably depressed, too! Problem solved!
> 
> I can't imagine any HD person would take that route voluntarily. Nor should they!


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## Married but Happy (Aug 13, 2013)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I think that you are either one or the other is a bit simplistic. There's plenty of women who HAD drive before kids and work and stress and relationship issues or [insert issue here] pulled down her libido. Now, I was never high drive, but I gladly had sex a few times a week before all the crap happened in my relationship.


Yes, of course it IS simplistic, and more than a bit. However, one has to start somewhere!

I am interested in this topic having been in an LD/HD relationship. I wish to understand it better, since it seems to be very common.

I also solved my decades long problem by leaving that relationship, and found a consistently better relationship. So far (15 years) it has remained happily HD/HD. We are also in agreement that neither of us ever wants to be in a sexually mismatched relationship _ever_ again (we were both married to LDs previously). So if that happens to us for _whatever _reason, we have plans and agreements in place to deal with it - hopefully fix it - but if not, the solutions include (as a last resort) divorce.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Cletus said:


> What did you mean by this?


The LD partner may acknowledge that their lack of interest in sex is an issue. They may refuse to see their doctor or go to therapy. Or they may go to therapy and just complain for an hour about their spouse. What they don't do is seek solutions
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> The LD partner may acknowledge that their lack of interest in sex is an issue. They may refuse to see their doctor or go to therapy. Or they may go to therapy and just complain for an hour about their spouse. What they don't do is seek solutions
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I don't like the implicit pathologizing of the LD person in that statement. One doesn't go to a doctor when one doesn't have anything wrong, and most people do not have hormonal conditions that cause low libido. The need for therapy also implies a mental health component that also doesn't exist for most.

The great majority of those who have lower sex drive than their partner are neither sick nor mentally ill and have nothing for which to seek help.


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## tech-novelist (May 15, 2014)

Cletus said:


> I don't like the implicit pathologizing of the LD person in that statement. One doesn't go to a doctor when one doesn't have anything wrong, and most people do not have hormonal conditions that cause low libido. The need for therapy also implies a mental health component that also doesn't exist for most.
> 
> The great majority of those who have lower sex drive than their partner are neither sick nor mentally ill and have nothing for which to seek help.


So they don't need help because it's only their life partner who is miserable? How caring.


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

SurpriseMyself said:


> I see what you are saying, but I'm not saying don't be HD. I'm saying that if you want more sex and stay married to your LD partner, then you need to come at this from a place of understanding and not frustration.
> 
> If you truly don't believe she will ever be different, or that she has no interest in being so, then you should move on.


Maybe, maybe not. I'm suggesting that hashing it over and over is the worst of all possible alternatives


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

SurpriseMyself said:


> It's also important to note that there are 23 FDA-approved treatments on the market to help men with ED and low testosterone. There are 0 for women. So if her issue is physical or chemical, it won't be easy to fix. In fact, you'd be better off if it were due to her past or your relationship. At least there's therapy!!


So....the $30 billion a year spent on breast cancer to at least in part to look good for men they don't ever want to have sex with is probably a badly crafted strategy? 

I kid...


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Surprise,

This theme is incredibly valuable. 

I'll point out some positive symmetry I've noticed with how M2 and I respond to requests from each other for:
- Quality time
- Sex
- Acts of service

Rejection - an actual NO - is very very rare

Requests to modify the schedule happen, but not as an avoidance tactic. 

Can we do that tomorrow doesn't mean: I hope you forget or something else comes up, or you change your mind or take care of your own needs. 

As far as 'doing it' goes. 

Neither of us does that 'hurry up and finish'. Whether we are furniture shopping (because M2 suggested it), or having sex (because she knows I want to), the 'hurry up and finish' message is hurtful. 





SurpriseMyself said:


> I appreciate how difficult it is! I made that list by thinking about my failed requests to my H for emotional connection. He's the LD one there and I'm the HD one. It was easy to write up, as I have lived it.
> 
> Professional help is often required!!


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening
> I agree - but sometimes it just doesn't seem possible to talk. The viewpoints are so horribly different.
> 
> HD: "It would be really nice if we could be intimate more often".
> ...


HD: "It would be really nice if we could be intimate more often".
LD: "But I've been really tired"
HD:"Sweetie - I'm not talking about today. I'm talking about our relationship. I want to discuss this part of our relationship with you."


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Cletus said:


> I don't like the implicit pathologizing of the LD person in that statement. One doesn't go to a doctor when one doesn't have anything wrong, and most people do not have hormonal conditions that cause low libido. The need for therapy also implies a mental health component that also doesn't exist for most.
> 
> The great majority of those who have lower sex drive than their partner are neither sick nor mentally ill and have nothing for which to seek help.


If they don't have low T and they don't have emotional issues, then we are back to LD people being normal but selfish. Is that your view? That the relationship isn't to blame, hormones aren't to blame, sexual history and messaging isn't to blame - it's just that LD people are, as some have proposed, selfish?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> HD: "It would be really nice if we could be intimate more often".
> LD: "But I've been really tired"
> HD:"Sweetie - I'm not talking about today. I'm talking about our relationship. I want to discuss this part of our relationship with you."


Perhaps this didn't happen in your marriage. It has in mine. "The Talk" is a common theme here. You're the first in my memory to ever hint that it might have been effective for more than a short time. 

"The talk" seems to be able for many to raise the physical intimacy level in the relationship until an inevitable regression to the mean.


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## Pluto2 (Aug 17, 2011)

Runs like Dog said:


> So....the $30 billion a year spent on breast cancer to at least in part to look good for men they don't ever want to have sex with is probably a badly crafted strategy?
> 
> I kid...


Not funny. Period.


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## CopperTop (May 29, 2014)

Hopeful Cynic said:


> There is no reliable medication that will improve low sex drive. There IS medication that will REDUCE high sex drive. Why is a solution not for the HD person to take this medication, to bring the mismatched libidos more into alignment?


 What are the side effects and is it available over the counter? As an HD I would be all over this if the side effects are mild.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> If they don't have low T and they don't have emotional issues, then we are back to LD people being normal but selfish. Is that your view? That the relationship isn't to blame, hormones aren't to blame, sexual history and messaging isn't to blame - it's just that LD people are, as some have proposed, selfish?


Sigh. No. LD people are LD. 

Nothing more, nothing less. It is normal. Human libido is spread over such a wide range that having matched libidos with your spouse is probably the unusual case.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Cletus said:


> Perhaps this didn't happen in your marriage. It has in mine. "The Talk" is a common theme here. You're the first in my memory to ever hint that it might have been effective for more than a short time.
> 
> "The talk" seems to be able for many to raise the physical intimacy level in the relationship until an inevitable regression to the mean.


The "talk" is the starting point to get to lasting solutions. You can't reasonably expect someone who isn't interested in sex to hear you say, "hey! I want more sex! It's important to me!" and their partner permanently changes. There's real work involved. It's a process. 

I think that's why having a sex marathon for a month isn't successful. It's forced and for a short time. "I just have to get through this month" may be the LD person's thought. 

The goal is connection, intimacy, love, and respect over the lifetime of the marriage. I guess it just depends on how long you want the life of your marriage to last, because if you don't feed it then it will die!


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Cletus said:


> Sigh. No. LD people are LD.
> 
> Nothing more, nothing less. It is normal. Human libido is spread over such a wide range that having matched libidos with your spouse is probably the unusual case.


Then let me ask you this. My H is so uncomfortable with emotional connection/intimacy that he has gone without his whole life. He is closed off and guarded.

Is he normal? Is this just the way he is and there's no hope for him?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Then let me ask you this. My H is so uncomfortable with emotional connection/intimacy that he has gone without his whole life. He is closed off and guarded.
> 
> Is he normal? Is this just the way he is and there's no hope for him?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm not a clinician. I can't speak to your husband. But lacking any psychological issues, then yes. If someone has been this way his entire life, don't you think it presumptuous to think he's broken? 

There's no gold standard to deciding how much intimacy in life another person should "normally" want. Just like sex, a low intimacy person is just fine until the other spouse wants more.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Married but Happy said:


> Neutering seems like a drastic solution, but I suppose it would work.


Remind me again of the difference between a long term sexless marriage and being neutered? If the HD hadn't been effectively neutered, they would have left the sexless marriage before it became long term.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Cletus said:


> I'm not a clinician. I can't speak to your husband. But lacking any psychological issues, then yes. If someone has been this way his entire life, don't you think it presumptuous to think he's broken?
> 
> There's no gold standard to deciding how much intimacy in life another person should "normally" want. Just like sex, a low intimacy person is just fine until the other spouse wants more.


I guess it is presumptuous of me. Yet he asks me to stay, says that I haven't tried everything to fix us and shouldn't leave the relationship until I have. 

Does that sound messed up to you?

I was ready to move out about 2 weeks ago, but there was an issue with the place I planned to move to. Since then he said the above, so I said then we need MC.

We are going next week. The counselor sent us a book, and the irony is that so much of what is in that book are the things I've been saying for years. It actually makes me both depressed and angry to read it.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Holdingontoit said:


> Remind me again of the difference between a long term sexless marriage and being neutered? If the HD hadn't been effectively neutered, they would have left the sexless marriage before it became long term.


With neutering, you get your testicles in a formaldehyde jar to look at once in a while. In a sexless marriage, you get to see them free-range in their natural, shriveled, useless state.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

richardsharpe said:


> Good evening all
> The posters here, LD or HD, are the ones who CARE about their sex lives. In general they are not the problem. It is their partners who do not care, and who therefore don't join discussions like this who ARE the problem.
> 
> Most of the posters are dealing with partners who are not trying to fix things. They react negatively to the suggestion that it is their (the poster's) fault.


So that asks the question. Who wants to be with a partner who does not care for them. If a person is not there, there is no "fix" to sex or anything else.


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## phillybeffandswiss (Jan 20, 2013)

SurpriseMyself said:


> There may be intractable LD spouses, but it seems there are also many intractable HD spouses who keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
> 
> Unhelpful behaviors from the HD:
> 
> ...


Sadly, this list is extremely fluid.


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## Faithful Wife (Oct 31, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> We are going next week. The counselor sent us a book, and the irony is that so much of what is in that book are the things I've been saying for years. It actually makes me both depressed and angry to read it.


What's the book?


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

I very much appreciate the LDs who post here. I think it is useful to hear things from their perspective. As a HD, I am ashamed of the extent to which the LDs get bashed. Their advice is generally sound. It will help in some cases. Especially if applied early in the relationship. It will not fix all problems. The longer the couple waits to start, the more difficult it will be to resolve other than via separation.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Faithful Wife said:


> What's the book?


I will PM you a link to the online version if you want to know. It reveals where he and therefore I live, so I won't post on a regular thread.

UPDATE - your inbox is full. Let me know if you clear some things out and want me to send.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> Ohhhh! Poor, poor, pitiful me. From a forum participant's perspective, this pity party gets pretty old.


Forum's with absolutely no sense of humor are miserable places to hang out.


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## SurpriseMyself (Nov 14, 2009)

Cletus said:


> Forum's with absolutely no sense of humor are miserable places to hang out.


Then I'll just throw this out there that when I type LD, I think "learning disabled." 

Maybe loving disabled?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

SurpriseMyself said:


> Then I'll just throw this out there that when I type LD, I think "learning disabled."
> 
> Maybe loving disabled?


I'd say leering disabled, but that would re-open a completely different can of worms...


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

I'm closing this thread with the addendum that the OP may start another if she chooses.

I do recommend a title that isn't fundamentally inflammatory or triggering. 

So ... suspending the 'don't start threads from closed threads' where this topic is concerned.


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