# Both Low Sex Drive, Nearly no sex at all



## ptama (Jul 8, 2020)

My wife and I have been married for 5 years, she 34 and I, a husband, 36.
We would both rate our sex drives relatively low. Our interest in sex was highest just after being married, has gone up and down over the years, but is at an all time low.

On her end the problem has become that she is bummed about how many times she has been unable to orgasm. (Penetration has never proved successful for us/her, but increasingly the manual/hand methods are not working and she gets very anxious about the possibility of failure, so much that she requests time and silence to focus on feeling like she is ready).

On my end, I am a guy who likes sex well enough, but I am not one of the supposedly average guys who thinks about sex at least once a day (or every 7 seconds as the now-defunct myth goes). I think about sex every few days, desire it about every few weeks. I don't talk about it much, nor do I request it often. Neither do I accept pity sex.

But we're having it once every few months. I don't think that's okay. It's not that she would not be willing to give me some according to my need, but she has expressed to me that it's important to her that at least _some of the time_ when I can not get her off, then I will honor her by abstaining with her. I agree to love her in that way, and I do not do so bedgrudgingly, as I do think highly about the relational ethics of sex and I do truly love this woman.

A few nights ago, I initiated and scheduled sex, to be the first time in about two months. After showering up and brushing our teeth, turning on lamps and incense, we tried to get her into it, but as she "prepared her mind", she concluded before we even tried anything physical that she wasn't going to be able to do it. So then we didn't do anything at all.

There was no plan to try again soon. In past such moments, there has been sorrow and talks about what to try different, how to make her needs a priority. This time, I told her again that we could forget about it tonight, because I don't want her to get into a habit of pretending things are okay. There wasn't much talk, no suggestion to try again soon. Just going to sleep.

To be honest, there are not a lot of reasons for either of us to initiate sex at this point. She feels unlikely to enjoy it within her own body, and I feel like 50% of the time we're going to turn the lights back on after 3 minutes of meditation and 50% of the time I will get a pity handjob out of it.

This pattern of having sex once every months has been the norm since our first child was born a year ago, but decreasing to every few months. She is the breadwinner and I the homemaker in this family, so don't give me any of your typical "she's tired" advice. Pretty much none of that applies to us.

I haven't taken it too personally for most of the time, neither does it drastically effect my love of life. But when she recently suggested that she realized she would 'actually be okay with me masturbating' when I need to, that changed my perspective. Back history: I came into the marriage with porn issues, and thanks to her loving confrontation and solidarity, that along with masturbating has been pretty much a non issue full stop. When I have masturbated, I have told her about that and appreciated her nonjudgemental ear and championing of my successes -- though it was her need to know I was sharing my sexuality with her, and not for myself.

But now that it gets her off the hook, its suddenly okay? I have told her that I do not want that, because I know in myself that, untether to her, my sexuality will revert to that unfulfilling one of being a selfish lonely 18 year old that masturbates every time I am stressed or tired.

So, this is not a case of high verse low sex drive, but it is a case of two parties each with their own reason to have less and less sex. Perhaps the part that I am most worried about, is the thought of being totally sexless. I am not a heartless or ignorant husband, I place my role as husband and father above career and body; but I can tell you that the longer we go without sex, the more our relationships very slowly bends toward being an inoffensive machine, where roles, routine and responsibility are the main bond between us. Or at least, that's my perspective: that without passion, we have a nice but boring marriage that is likely living with a "pretty good friend."

I am worried that soon there will be no incentive for us to have or initate sex. I am worried that we may never know the damage caused by a sexless marriage until well after we forget what sex even is.

The status now is that she says she will get a book on re-discovering her female sexuality, but I honestly wonder if that will even happen unless there is a significant amount of me nagging her to do that, because the reality is that she doesn't even think about how nice an orgasm would be anymore.

In the defense of loveliest wife: she wife is not heartless; she is genuiniely disappointed that she can't match my already low sex drive, she is a great mother! But given the infrequency of my requests, and her gradual disinterest in the risk of failure, I am certain she has no incentive to even think about this issue day to day. And I feel bad making "her issue" an issue to me.

What should I do? What do I lose if we just never talk about sex again?
Where can I turn for support and encouragement in this?

I don't feel she is not the person for me to ask for encouragement, as she is already disappointed in herself. I have close male friendships that we can share _just about_ everything with, but because we all know each others wives very well, it seems taboo to speak about our personal sex issues with each other.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

I don't think you should throw in the towel yet. It seems like your wife would be interested in more frequent sex (not saying she'd be high drive) if she were more comfortable with her body. Not being able to orgasm can be a huge self-esteem killer for some women. Ask me how I know...

Has your wife never been able to orgasm easily (maybe a sexual trauma in her past), or did that start after childbirth?

You mentioned using your hands to try and get her to orgasm, what about oral? Toys? The vast majority of women won't orgasm from penetration, so your wife is totally normal there and she should NOT be ashamed of that.

Does she feel like YOU put pressure on her to orgasm? That can be a big issue. The goal of sex isn't to orgasm, it's more of an added bonus.

Have you thought about seeing a sex therapist? They can be a lot of help. I'd also recommend reading this book: She Comes First: The Thinking Man's Guide to Pleasuring a Woman: Kerner, Ian: 8580001041469: Books - Amazon.ca (here's the Canadian link).


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## Mr.Married (Feb 21, 2018)

Have her read your post and see what she says. You wrote it out really well. Maybe your written words will convey the message that your spoken words have not.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

I'm certain this is the weirdest story I've ever read. It sounds like you're saying your wife tries to will herself to orgasm and knows in advance if it won't be possible, which I don't understand. I understand having to be in the mood for sex, but I don't get the premonition part. I'm sure other ladies will be around tomorrow to share their perspective because what you are describing is lost on me. Or maybe I'm not really looking at it the way you intended.



ptama said:


> What should I do?


What you do is learn how to make love to that woman. Up your game and techniques. Improve your skills. Because what I'm finding difficult to understand is, even if a woman is not in the mood for sex, she can still enjoy it and have an orgasm if her husband knows how to bring her to orgasm. Probably not every time, but skills and know-how are what increase the rate of success. I know you're saying you have been successful in the past, but the increasing rate of failure means it's time to do some things differently and introduce some new ones. One reason she's not able to imagine enjoyment is she doesn't have anything different to look forward to, nothing different to imagine to ready herself. She only knows what works, but that isn't working anymore. She's feeling the routine doesn't cut it for her anymore. Sometimes, a woman's body changes. I could often tell when things seemed to rearrange themselves. Yes, I know that sounds strange but it happens. Occasionally, something - a certain position, for example - would be very painful that had never been painful before. Things change up, so we have to adapt and so does he. Moreover, our minds and moods change, as well. Something else to adapt to.

I'm 60 years old and have shared on these boards that I don't recall often actually being in the mood and only ever initiated sex probably 3 or 4 times (and those were fairly recent). But with my first husband, my current/2nd husband, and all the boyfriends in between, I have never said no. Never told any of them "I don't feel like it" or "I'm not in the mood" or "I have a headache" (I mean, I have refused sex with one or two but for entirely different reasons I won't get into). The reason is that, even though I wasn't in the mood, I knew I would enjoy it once we began. And one way or another, he would bring me to orgasm (except once, which was really weird that I couldn't and surprising to both of us because that guy was very skilled and always successful).

Now, I'm not blaming you, but I am saying it's up to you. There are people who say the man isn't responsible for the woman's orgasm, but that's not true. The guy can do all sorts of things in all sorts of ways but if he's not doing what she needs him to do or he isn't doing things the way she needs, then it's not going to happen for her. She doesn't necessarily enjoy it just because he's going to town. And she can't cum just because he's trying to make her cum if he's not doing what she needs to make her cum. She can't will herself to orgasm all by herself based on what he isn't doing right. So her orgasm surely is his responsibility. She should be able to help him. She should be able to guide him. She should be able to express what she needs to him. But the fact is women don't normally know what those things are until they experience them (as proven in my first link below). The more we experience, the better we learn about our own body and become better at knowing what is required, and then better at helping. A good example of that is you saying.....



ptama said:


> (Penetration has never proved successful for us/her . . .)


Yes, the vast majority of women have never had a vaginal orgasm. But just because they haven't had vaginal orgasms doesn't mean they can't have vaginal orgasms. Every woman who has had a vaginal orgasm did, beforehand, have reason to think and say "I don't have vaginal orgasms." Well, until it happened, that statement and that frame of mind were very true. But they found it was possible, so there was never anything true about thinking or saying "I can't have vaginal orgasms," yet that's what a lot of them say and think. Pathetically, there are web articles and so-called research material that tell women the same things - they don't or they can't - rather than articles and data teaching men and women how to accomplish them. No article and not even doctors have the right to say that women can't. Just like men do, women all have the same equipment. All different shapes and sizes and positioned somewhat differently, but the same equipment nonetheless. To say most women can't have vaginal orgasms is a laughable fallacy that suggests most women are dead inside or that most women's equipment simply doesn't work. Nothing about that makes a bit of sense (except in cases of some sort of malformation that make it impossible and cannot be overcome). And as far as that goes anyway, how can any research say anything about ALL women or the majority of women, when not ALL nor the majority were polled. Certainly, no one ever asked me, neither prior to nor since my first vaginal orgasm and nowhere in between all my subsequent others.

Nor would I say that because a man's wife doesn't have vaginal orgasms it means his equipment doesn't work. That would be just as ridiculous a statement. But I would, and do, say that he needs to know how to use his equipment to bring her to orgasm. It might be easier for some than others, but it can be done to change the narrative from "most women can't" to "most women can" and to change the narrative from "most men don't know how" to "most men can learn to accomplish that goal" and, thereby, invert the so-called research results.

This article is prime example of what I'm saying:
*How Finding My A-Spot Unlocked The Best Orgasm Of My Life*

Excerpted:
_"Though it makes up our culture’s quintessential image of sexual success, orgasm during intercourse had thus far evaded me."_

and then,

_"I don’t remember the exact moment things shifted for me. I just know that little by little, penetration began to feel good."_

Notice also that she mentions how bored she used to be during intercourse. She is not hardly the only one, but she became "_ravenous and engaged_."

And to further prove my point, if this woman automatically knew her body and what feels good to her, there wouldn't have been anything to discover. She would have known her A-Spot and its purpose were there, would never have been bored during intercourse, and she would have been having vaginal orgasms throughout all of her sexual experiences. Again, women don't know these things and what feels good until they learn of them. They learn of them when they experience them.

It may be possible for you to become like her boyfriend. They discovered her A-Spot together.

I've never read the book that Bobert suggests, but it sounds interesting, and I'm with him in suggesting you read it. I'm a get-down-to-business type of person. I usually fast forward during the staring off into the sunset portions of a movie. I fast forward past the car chases and someone running toward a destination. I don't care about that stuff, I just want to know what happens when they get there LOL since nothing is going to happen until then. So, I don't understand imparting the techniques of making a woman orgasm requiring an entire book. I would just want the 1-2-3s, but I'm not knocking it. I think you should read it. As a primer, I also suggest you read *my response here*, where I answer a young man's question of how to sexually please his wife. Adjust and tweak my suggestions according to her cues and preferences.

Additional helpful reading. Mostly addressed to her but very helpful for you too.
*How To Experience Full-Body Orgasmic Bliss*


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## Married_in_michigan (Apr 9, 2014)

I found this post interesting. My marriage situation is different, but there have been occasions that my wife has expressed a similar idea, that she somehow can just tell "it is not going to work right now". For her, seems often that her mind is racing with other thoughts and she knows if she is not able to slow that down, orgasm is not going to happen and she just avoid sex at that time. 

I would also be curious if the OP wife can orgasm easily on her own? Is it more an issue just with partnered sex, or does she have trouble reaching orgasm on her own.


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## ah_sorandy (Jul 19, 2018)

I hope we are aloud to mention products by name on this site. If we are not, can a mod please modify or delete this post.

Buy your wife a magic wand, or any other clitoral vibe that has good power and ratings. That should solve her problem. ;-)


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

ah_sorandy said:


> I hope we are aloud to mention products by name on this site. If we are not, can a mod please modify or delete this post.
> 
> Buy your wife a magic wand, or any other clitoral vibe that has good power and ratings. That should solve her problem. ;-)


Or if those type of vibrators don't work for her, go for a Womanizer. Might do the trick.


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## ah_sorandy (Jul 19, 2018)

bobert said:


> Or if those type of vibrators don't work for her, go for a Womanizer. Might do the trick.


If it actually finds it's way out of the box. LOL


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## ptama (Jul 8, 2020)

bobert said:


> Has your wife never been able to orgasm easily (maybe a sexual trauma in her past), or did that start after childbirth?
> 
> You mentioned using your hands to try and get her to orgasm, what about oral? Toys? The vast majority of women won't orgasm from penetration, so your wife is totally normal there and she should NOT be ashamed of that.
> 
> Does she feel like YOU put pressure on her to orgasm? That can be a big issue. The goal of sex isn't to orgasm, it's more of an added bonus.


It seemed simple enough before we were married and just after being married for about a year. Thats when we had to start changing things up on the regular. Because the hand was the only reliable thing for a while, but is now a toss up, I do agree with you that we will have to try more oral. We have done it once, and it worked, but it is difficult for her to get into that idea.

Part of the problem is that while I am a mental and sentimental person (my orgasm doesn't rely on it though), she is not -- though she claims she has to get into a different headspace for it. Like if she says she likes a movie, and I ask her what she liked about it, she is usually annoyed because she doesn't think about things like that. She is smart, but she doesn't ruminate on things she doesn't truly need to. She is not sentimental, she says she does not have any fantasies and that there are no particular thoughts have help her to want to make love. I have asked her what I can do differently, and she has no suggestions at all. 2 years ago or so, she would do research and give me a few suggestions (some which worked, some not), but not anymore.

I give her several kisses a day, express many in-the-moment appreciations of her beautiful body and precious character -- its not once or twice that I have had to tell her, can you find at least one time a week to give me a kiss?

I talked to her about the issue after my post last night, and she said that all she can say is that feeling emotionally connected and in good communication is what she needs. Well I have certainly come to appreciate that this may be the case for many women, but I find the suggestion more or less unhelpful because it suggests that I am doing everything right in the bedroom, its just the other mystical and unquantifiable stuff thats not going right. And frankly, I think its a convenient excuse at this juncture, because though we certainly have our issues in marriage I don't think we are emotionally disconnected. I am very affectionate throughout the week and if anything, I would say we over-communicate and or spend too much time together at home to find each other sexy. Maybe thats it.

I am certainly receptive to your suggestion that we learn some new techniques, and to that end I have already started reading that book your referred me to. Oral has worked for her, and I am very open to using it on the regular. Thank you for referring me to that.

I think what we most need right now, is a success for her. I don't think that more roses and compliments are going to do that because she has such a low drive that those things are likely to make her happier but not more apt to want sex.


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## ptama (Jul 8, 2020)

StarFires said:


> I'm certain this is the weirdest story I've ever read. It sounds like you're saying your wife tries to will herself to orgasm and knows in advance if it won't be possible, which I don't understand. I understand having to be in the mood for sex, but I don't get the premonition part. I'm sure other ladies will be around tomorrow to share their perspective because what you are describing is lost on me. Or maybe I'm not really looking at it the way you intended.


Your reply is largely a tirade on the topic of "women CAN have penetration orgasms if they want to" which obviously comes from the bias of having succeeded yourself. That is entirely unhelpful. I think I stated that in passing, but you made it your point of topic because someone else had the nerve to make a specific and helpful reading suggestion to me.

I did not make any mention of a premonition, god no! What I said was that because she feels too much pressure to have an orgasm, she needs to focus and control her thoughts, even before I begin to cuddle or kiss her, to ward off the thoughts of fear of failure that come up. Usually, we have proceeded in some fashion to the best of our abilities, but most recently she felt that she didn't even want to proceed because she couldn't get past the fear of failure. As a result, we expressed our sadness about it and I said, well we can try a different time and she accepted my suggestion and that was it.

Why do you find that wierd? It sounds like you find tons of success in orgasm and always have, so I don't think you and my wife could relate on those grounds.


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## ptama (Jul 8, 2020)

Married_in_michigan said:


> I would also be curious if the OP wife can orgasm easily on her own? Is it more an issue just with partnered sex, or does she have trouble reaching orgasm on her own.


Its always been a toss up. At the best of times it was about 50% success rate in partnered sex or masturbation. Just after getting married, she was using a hormonal contraceptive, which was a potential problem. In pregnancy she was often too tired and sex usually hurt due the fact that baby was pushing inside her parts. She has suggested that now it may be because of breast feeding that things are not working well for her. With spontaneity, sex is unlikely to happen now that we have a child. With scheduling, as per her suggestion, its not a guarantee that drive or desire will show up for the event.

Another consideration, and one that she has been acknowledging since day one, is that there may be residual trauma from an assault she experienced in her early 20s, that is causing her mind to shut down and/or downplay the enjoyment of sex. She doesn't have any weird flashbacks or ruminating resentments, its just a theory. She did some online female sexual recovery course two years ago, with poor results.

This was mentioned, and rings a bell: my wife says she doesn't feel sexy. Not that she feels unsexy, she honestly just doesn't really think about sex when she thinks about her body. I recall one time she said she thought she was a bit prudish and felt bad about that.

I do think that on the whole, she is not a very sexual person. In her passing mentions of sex she had when she was younger, she never indicated she got much out of it. So I would appreciate any advice specific to the kind of issue where someone just doesn't engage that much with the idea of sex.


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## ptama (Jul 8, 2020)

And to be clear: you and I should not assume that because its me posting here, rather than my wife, that it is all her problem. I do believe the burden of changing things is mine if I want things to be different, and that is why what I know from my perspective matters. Thanks to the several of you that have offered positive and concrete suggestions for what I can do on my end.


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## Livvie (Jan 20, 2014)

I stopped reading at-- you two start having a sexual experience but if she realizes she's not going to be able to orgasm, she shuts down the experience and you don't get to, either. 

Wow!

I would never never do that to my partner.

Why isn't this a huge issue for you?


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

ptama said:


> Another consideration, and one that she has been acknowledging since day one, is that there may be residual trauma from an assault she experienced in her early 20s, that is causing her mind to shut down and/or downplay the enjoyment of sex. She doesn't have any weird flashbacks or ruminating resentments, its just a theory. She did some online female sexual recovery course two years ago, with poor results.


So, I'm biased but to me this could be a key piece. If so, that's something that she should speak to a sex therapist about. 

Here is a book that you both should read. It is a REALLY good book for this topic. 
The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma (Audible Audio Edition): Bessel Van der Kolk MD, Sean Pratt, Gildan Media, LLC: Amazon.ca: Audible Audiobooks


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## ptama (Jul 8, 2020)

She doesn't verbally shut down, but she does let me know its not working for her or sometimes that it seems like it won't. I don't say "okay, well can you just focus on me then" I say, "I'm sorry honey." Sometimes I offer to try again slower, or different, sometimes we do and sometimes she says, no, don't worry about it. Sometimes she offers to help me out anyways, other times not. But this last time I let her off the hook, and she let herself off the hook.
As someone with a relatively low drive, I am not left desperate and sexually repressed for weeks on end, I move on. But recently, I am starting to see the trajectory and realizing this pattern of avoidance is probably going to manifest much greater problems down the road. We want a second child, but I do not fancy the thought of relegating regular sex to seasons of baby-making in our relationship.


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## ptama (Jul 8, 2020)

Livvie said:


> I stopped reading at-- you two start having a sexual experience but if she realizes she's not going to be able to orgasm, she shuts down the experience and you don't get to, either.


She doesn't verbally shut it down, but she does let me know its not working for her or sometimes that it seems like it won't. I don't say "okay, well can you just focus on me then" I say, "I'm sorry honey." Sometimes I offer to try again slower, or different, sometimes we do and sometimes she says, no, don't worry about it. Sometimes she offers to help me out anyways, other times not. But this last time I let her off the hook, and she let herself off the hook.
As someone with a relatively low drive, I am not left desperate and sexually repressed for weeks on end, I move on. Thought I had initiated and scheduled it, I think I thought I could let go of it in that moment. But recently, I am starting to see the trajectory this is taking and realizing this pattern of avoidance is probably going to manifest much greater problems down the road. We want a second child, but I do not fancy the thought of relegating regular sex to seasons of baby-making in our relationship.


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## StarFires (Feb 27, 2018)

nd t


ptama said:


> Your reply is largely a tirade on the topic of "women CAN have penetration orgasms if they want to" which obviously comes from the bias of having succeeded yourself. That is entirely unhelpful. I think I stated that in passing, but you made it your point of topic because someone else had the nerve to make a specific and helpful reading suggestion to me.
> 
> I did not make any mention of a premonition, god no! What I said was that because she feels too much pressure to have an orgasm, she needs to focus and control her thoughts, even before I begin to cuddle or kiss her, to ward off the thoughts of fear of failure that come up. Usually, we have proceeded in some fashion to the best of our abilities, but most recently she felt that she didn't even want to proceed because she couldn't get past the fear of failure. As a result, we expressed our sadness about it and I said, well we can try a different time and she accepted my suggestion and that was it.
> 
> Why do you find that wierd? It sounds like you find tons of success in orgasm and always have, so I don't think you and my wife could relate on those grounds.


You took my post out of context (accused me of disparaging someone's book suggestion), found it unhelpful (could that be because it places responsibility on you while you absolve yourself of any?), quoted your own words as if they were mine, and misquoted me because I didn't say "if they want to." I said "that they don't doesn't mean they can't." I'm not biased based on my own experience. I'm biased because I learned from many women that it is possible long before I ever had one.

I might have wondered why you were receptive to the guy's suggestion of learning new techniques and reading material while my same suggestions were unhelpful but decided not to wonder about it after all. Okay, you found my post unhelpful, and that's up to you. But it would have been helpful if it didn't scare you so much. I think it must have scared you since you dismissed it and didn't let on to understand any of it. But fortune favors the bold, you know?


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

Personally, I'm not thrown off by your wife's response to sex and her pleasure. Maybe this will help, maybe it won't. 

My wife would gladly have sex every day (she's not actually HD, though) but she hasn't wanted to bother with her pleasure in a long, long time. There are few reasons for that, and from what I can tell, she acts similarly to your wife.

She knows she isn't going to orgasm, and she doesn't want *me *wasting my time/effort. 
She gets frustrated with herself when she can't orgasm, because she knows that *I* will be disappointed. 
When she _does _orgasm it's extremely weak (started after childbirth) and doesn't do much for her and she finds it frustrating. 
There are more reasons, but with playing, screaming children I can't think very well right now. Regardless, notice the trend. The majority of the reason she doesn't want to try is because of ME. 

I could be wrong, but it may be the same for your wife as well. I get the feeling you (and her) put WAY too much pressure on achieving an orgasm. I do, even though I know I shouldn't. The goal of sex shouldn't be to orgasm. It's to have fun, feel good, bond with your partner, express love sometimes, etc. If you put pressure on it, chances are it won't happen. Men are different. 

If you can get your wife on board, I would tell her that you want to go down on her JUST to make her feel good. That's it. Have zero expectations of an orgasm. You are just there to make her feel good and for you both to learn what she likes. Stay down there as long as she wants you to, and use the knowledge from that book I linked earlier. Kiss and touch her whole body, etc. just make her feel good. It's all about her. 

It won't be a magical, quick fix, but do that enough times and she may start to relax.


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## bobert (Nov 22, 2018)

A few other things... 

What happened around that one year mark that made things change? Pregnancy? Or did it change for no apparent reason? 

What a woman likes and needs to orgasm can change over time, especially after (or during) pregnancy and childbirth. You may need to change things up and both learn what works for her body NOW. Breastfeeding can play a huge role as well. You may see a difference when your wife and child are ready to wean. If she has/had post-partum depression, that's another factor. 

Definitely do try oral (if she wants to). Do you know why she is uncomfortable with the idea? Also, chances are she will feel closer to you if make her orgasm. From what I've been told at least!

You mentioned that you think you two are emotionally connected and have good communication, but it seems she disagrees (unless I misread). That is a problem that needs fixing. Something to remember is that she is her own person with her own thoughts and ideas, so she might not necessarily feel the same way you do - even if you think she should! Can you get her to expand on that and what she needs? You may be talking a lot, but maybe not about the right things or the things she wants to talk about. Or it's possible she has things she wants to talk about but is uncomfortable bringing them up. 

Do you still date each other? It really shouldn't stop after "I do". There are definitely things you can do in the bedroom to improve things, but generally, good sex starts outside of the bedroom.


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