# How do I respond?



## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

So I've posted a lot about the insanity that has gone on in my marriage. However FINALLY in January of this year my wife sought help after discovering PMDD and that every single symptom down to the wire is her. She was prescribed an anti-depressant and boom! new woman. Within a few weeks she was being sweet and normal and nice and she was wanting to talk about problems instead of hit me or scream. However last night we got into a small argument that turned into a big one. She told me that i had no value, that I made 0 contributions in our life and that anything positive in our world is because of her. Anything negative is me. I had long suspected she felt that way because of the way she treated me but to hear her say it was really really painful. 

I asked her why she felt that way and she said "well show me something positive you've done" I have tons of things that i thought were meaningful contributions to our life. She refuted each one. So I'm left this morning feeling completely worthless. I made a sarcastic comment (shouldn't have but I was frustrated, not to proud of it) that "I guess I should just off myself if I'm just taking up space and have no value" she said completely seriously that she wasn't sure why I hadn't. 

I asked if she understood how unbelievably mean that was. She said she didn't f#%# care. (Exact words) how do i tackle this?
thanks everyone.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

How should anyone handle someone who is treated like they aren't worthy of even being alive? 

To heck with that!! 

I wouldn't waste another moment of energy offering any kind of love or help to someone who said garbage like that to me. There are an awful lot of people in this world who don't feel that way. Find them.


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## WorkingOnMe (Mar 17, 2012)

What was on your list of contributions?


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Well I am the sole provider. I work 12+ hrs a day and make a very nice living. We have a lot of bills to catch up on from student days and finally just got a point where we can start actually making a dent in them. So despite the nice income it's all zapped at the moment paying off debt. So she nixed that as a contribution because we aren't left with much to do the nice things in life with. I think I'm a great Dad
I am not lazy I'm helpful although I tend to be forgetful


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## happyman64 (Jan 12, 2012)

Are you sure she is still taking her meds????


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

HAHA thanks I needed that. No I am not sure. I'm not a babysitter for her. When I was on anti-depressents (for a few years before discovering that I'm much happier off them) she would count the pills everyday. Made me feel like a child I don't want to do that to her.


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## Toffer (Jan 31, 2012)

What should you do?

If someone was treating me this terribly, I would not even be married to her!

Tell her it's time for her to start contributing to the household income by getting a job and paying down her portion of the debt!

Sheesh!


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Ah but the trick is because I've been such an awful husband in the past I really have no leverage or right in any of this. Despite me turning life around she always has that to fall on. 

Her earning potential is very small not enough to offset the cost of a babysitter while she's working. Now i've MANY times told her though that doesn't matter to me, if she wants to work because she wants a job and needs to get out of the house I am 100% supportive even if the income just gets cancelled out because of child-care. 

I'm smart enough to realize there is more to a job than just money. So I don't think she'd even be able to earn enough to offset the cost of childcare. My argument has always been that if it's purely for money don't do it because it won't make an impact. If it's to get out of the house, be with adults have a career. Do it. I'm 100% behind her either way though.


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

GTFO
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

matman said:


> So I've posted a lot about the insanity that has gone on in my marriage. However FINALLY in January of this year my wife sought help after discovering PMDD and that every single symptom down to the wire is her. She was prescribed an anti-depressant and boom! new woman. *Within a few weeks she was being sweet and normal and nice and she was wanting to talk about problems instead of hit me or scream.* However last night we got into a small argument that turned into a big one. She told me that i had no value, that I made 0 contributions in our life and that anything positive in our world is because of her. Anything negative is me. I had long suspected she felt that way because of the way she treated me but to hear her say it was really really painful.
> 
> I asked her why she felt that way and she said "well show me something positive you've done" I have tons of things that i thought were meaningful contributions to our life. She refuted each one. So I'm left this morning feeling completely worthless. I made a sarcastic comment (shouldn't have but I was frustrated, not to proud of it) that *"I guess I should just off myself if I'm just taking up space and have no value" she said completely seriously that she wasn't sure why I hadn't. *
> 
> ...


I am still trying to reconcile those two statements. 

Why are you sticking around? What do you get out of this relationship? and I don't mean what a great mom she is, my question is what do *you* get out of being married to her?

_Edit_ - Also, if you want to make a point, split up the bills, including debt payments, 50/50 and tell her she is responsible for her half. She will see real quick what you contribute.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

While I appreciate the sentiment, I do not want to leave my wife. I love her very very much. Often when I've posted here that is the response i get and it very much troubles me that these issues come out and everyone's solution is to turn and leave. No wonder the divorce rate is so high. I am not religious it's not an issue like that for me. It's that I believe to make statements like that she must be in some serious pain or dealing with something serious. I'm an optimist and believer that people are good.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

ask her to list her contributions.


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## KathyBatesel (Apr 26, 2012)

matman said:


> Often when I've posted here that is the response i get and it very much troubles me that these issues come out and everyone's solution is to turn and leave.


Maybe it's because people are seeing something that isn't fixable. Complaints are fixable. Criticism not so much. A partner who wants you to die and who isn't willing to change herself... this is broke beyond repair, like a microwave that's been on fire. By staying, what you are doing is purchasing yourself plenty of emotional baggage that you'll carry forward into the rest of your life.

What would you do if she spoke to your child this way? 

On a side note, you said you've told her that her income wouldn't make much of a difference. While I completely believe you and understand why this is true, it *would* make a difference in her coming to understand just how much you do contribute. At least, I would hope so. She sounds hateful enough that this might not be true.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

very well put. I can list her contributions already. Plus some she will add in. 

1. The kids-She's a great mother. I've never understood how's she's able to seperate her mothering abilities and her skills in a marriage. She is always amazing with our kids.

2. Our home with me being gone 12 hours and sometimes more she takes care of the house (except my stuff of course, not complaining I don't want her to do my laundry clean up a mess I made etc etc) and does a great job as well.

3. Organizing life

Where it gets murky is she says she "makes stuff happen" that nothing would ever get done in our house if she didn't do it.


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## naga75 (Jul 5, 2012)

Thats her "job", then. 
The reason she has to organize is because you are away at work. 
My wife and i are in the same situation. I work 12-14 hours a day, she takes care of the house and kids (i also do my own laundry and help a little with household chores on the weekends). 
It sounds to me like you recognize and admire her contributions, yet she doesnt do the same or you. 
That isnt ever going to work out, and i say you likely need to have a serious conversation with your wife about acknowledging your contribution as well.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Oh man I totally agree. I'd love to have that talk. I feel like we did last night though. I asked her straight out "you can't see anything I do that contributes?" she just said "nope" also when I am speaking in these arguments she looks at her phone constantly. But when she is speaking its down. If i looked at mine while she is trouble man. The whole air everything was about not caring about me AT ALL. So I'm wondering now if really she knows I contribute but is trying to hurt me somehow?? it worked..... oh boy did it.


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## AlmostYoung (May 24, 2012)

matman said:


> While I appreciate the sentiment, I do not want to leave my wife. I love her very very much. Often when I've posted here that is the response i get and it very much troubles me that these issues come out and everyone's solution is to turn and leave. No wonder the divorce rate is so high. I am not religious it's not an issue like that for me. It's that I believe to make statements like that she must be in some serious pain or dealing with something serious. *I'm an optimist and believer that people are good.*


They are. Even when they are lashing out in pain at the one who loves them the most.

mm: Sorry to hear about the crap your W is putting you through, and I applaud your decision to work it out instead of turn and run. I agree, many posters here, and the population in general, bail on their vows much too easily. Instead of learning how to make a relationship work, they learn how to D. 

Did you know second marriages fail at a higher rate than first ones do? And on average they do so in a shorter amount of time, too!

Your wife is in a bad place right now. Of course you have value, and are nowhere near the awful H she's making you out to be. 

But here's the thing: Right now this is her perception, AND TO HER IT IS REALITY. The good news is it doesn't always have to be.

Next time she starts with the S***, DON"T ARGUE OR TRY TO CONVINCE HER OTHERWISE!!! She knows her feelings. Telling her she's wrong will only confirm in her mind that you truly are the problem. Instead, validate her feelings... This doesn't mean you accept the blame for stuff that isn't true, but let her know you understand how she feels. 

She's lashing out because she's hurting. Listen to her. Validate her. Let her feel safe with you. *Show her love, even when she's not showing it to you.*

If you ever feel you can't do the above, it's better to leave the area, until things cool down. 

Figure out your part(s) in her unhappiness and quietly do a 180 on them. Don't tell her, SHOW her.

Be the man any women would be crazy to leave, and detach from her antics for now. 

Oh, and if you truly want this to work, you must put away the score card. She won't be in this for a while, it's all you, buddy. 

I recommend Divorce Remedy by Michele W Davis for you. It will take a while to turn things around, but in the end it will be worth it. You can do this!


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

Thank you for that thoughtful post. This 180 thing keeps coming up and I might need to try that. I think it could really work well. It will be very tough to show her love at the moment so I'll probably doing a fair bit of walking away. Which is fine by me


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

matman said:


> very well put. I can list her contributions already. Plus some she will add in.
> 
> 1. The kids-She's a great mother. I've never understood how's she's able to seperate her mothering abilities and her skills in a marriage. She is always amazing with our kids.
> 
> ...


Those are all great qualities. So I ask again-

What do *you *get out of your relationship. What does she do for *you*?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Mat suggest that you will not "compete " with her.."Competing" is NOT good...Unless there is an obvious "imbalance" ..the I do this I do that its never going to end..TRY words of appreciation to each other you both contribute in different ways and at different times and its doesn't have to be 50/50 at all times ...just 100/100...

If she stays at home she may have self esteem issues .Or lets say..Works hard but doesn't get "paid" nothing to wave around and say she "earned...I know that's NOT your fault BUT sometimes staying home doing the grub work and dealing with children you feel "lesser"..or your opportunities to "earn the money" and build on career are being traded in and no one even appreciates your work ..AND you make no money..thats "power" ..so all she has is you appreciating her..

I wish I could describe it better and she is taking out on you I bet (I assume) what I describe..

Say something like "I couldn't do what I do or have what I have without you "..and I don't want too...Say "I NEED you "..Say "I depend on you "...say we are a team...

That might get you an inch..


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

matman said:


> Oh man I totally agree. I'd love to have that talk. I feel like we did last night though. I asked her straight out "you can't see anything I do that contributes?" she just said "nope" a*lso when I am speaking in these arguments she looks at her phone constantly. But when she is speaking its down. If i looked at mine while she is trouble man.* The whole air everything was about not caring about me AT ALL. So I'm wondering now if really she knows I contribute but is trying to hurt me somehow?? it worked..... oh boy did it.


This is a huge respect/control thing right here. She is very clearly communicating that she is above you. You are expected to pay her full attention, but she is allowed to ignore you. 

You absolutely need to stop that right away. Next time she looks at her phone when you are talking, stop speaking and stare at her. Tell her that you expect her full attention. If she keeps it up, stop the conversation and tell her you will be happy to continue it when she is willing to participate fully. Then get up and walk away.

She has no respect for you. You absolutely need to stand up for yourself now. It will not get better until you do.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> Mat suggest that you will not "compete " with her.."Competing" is NOT good...Unless there is an obvious "imbalance" ..the I do this I do that its never going to end..TRY words of appreciation to each other you both contribute in different ways and at different times and its doesn't have to be 50/50 at all times ...just 100/100...
> 
> If she stays at home she may have self esteem issues .Or lets say..Works hard but doesn't get "paid" nothing to wave around and say she "earned...I know that's NOT your fault BUT sometimes staying home doing the grub work and dealing with children you feel "lesser"..or your opportunities to "earn the money" and build on career are being traded in and no one even appreciates your work ..AND you make no money..thats "power" ..so all she has is you appreciating her..
> 
> ...


Sorry Dallas, but I don't see this working. She told him he is worthless, does not contribute anything, and that she does not know why he has not killed himself yet. I don't see how those words will help - she already thinks she is necessary and he is not.

What she said is hateful language.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

AlmostYoung said:


> She's lashing out because she's hurting. Listen to her. Validate her. Let her feel safe with you. *Show her love, even when she's not showing it to you.*


Honest question - how does one validate a partner that says you are so worthless that they wonder why you have not killed yourself yet?


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Sorry Dallas, but I don't see this working. She told him he is worthless, does not contribute anything, and that she does not know why he has not killed himself yet. I don't see how those words will help - she already thinks she is necessary and he is not.
> 
> What she said is hateful language.


I didnt read that .That is SOOOO wrong..

But my first guess..Is that is what she thinks of herself..I think she is projecting..She feels worthless..she feels she does not contribute..and she does not know why she hasnt committed suicide..

And no those words don't help..But that is how many stay at home moms feel...

Based on that in a calm time..ask her if she feels that way .


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## dallasapple (Jun 20, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Honest question - how does one validate a partner that says you are so worthless that they wonder why you have not killed yourself yet?


well first you say ..that's very hurtful..but I know I'm not worthless..and I don't kill myself because I value my life and I know I'm important..no matter what you say...It hurts you don't think I am...

Why would you say I'm not? If you believe that we need a mediator .In the mean time I wont tolerate speech like that.


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## 3Xnocharm (Jun 22, 2012)

So folks think he can NICE her into liking and respecting him?? Sorry but I am finding that VERY unlikely! I dont think she even likes him any more, and you have to like someone to love them. If doing the 180 for six months doesnt work, I think OP would be a fool to stay and let this woman abuse him further.


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## AlmostYoung (May 24, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> Honest question - how does one validate a partner that says you are so worthless that they wonder why you have not killed yourself yet?


"It must realy hurt to feel that way" 

"I can tell you are in a lot of pain"

"I understand what you are feeling"

Stuff like that. You don't have to agree to validate. 

But any arguing or trying to convince her otherwise will only make things worse.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

AlmostYoung said:


> "It must realy hurt to feel that way"
> 
> "I can tell you are in a lot of pain"
> 
> ...


See, I see this, coupled with the other behavior, as a real lack of respect. The phone issue is a sure sign of it. She does not respect him. She has made that absolutely clear. Yet he should simply accept such hateful speech? He should not defend himself? I am at a loss.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

dallasapple said:


> well first you say ..that's very hurtful..but I know I'm not worthless..and I don't kill myself because I value my life and I know I'm important..no matter what you say...It hurts you don't think I am...
> 
> Why would you say I'm not? If you believe that we need a mediator .In the mean time I wont tolerate speech like that.


I think this would be reasonable. I would not accept that speech from her and would insist on a marriage counselor.


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## AlmostYoung (May 24, 2012)

3Xnocharm said:


> So folks think he can NICE her into liking and respecting him??


Of course not. But neither can you command someone into loving and respecting you.

The showing compassion, understanding, and yes even love, is the only way to allow time for her perception to change. It's what H's & W's who truly love their partner do. It's how disasters like the OP's situation are turned around. ONE partner takes the first step towards loving, and it effects the response from the other.

And I don't believe in "THE" 180, like it is some kind of single entity and always the same. 

180's can be LOTS of different things. Any time you do the opposite of what you were doing in a particular situation, that's a 180.

It's not the same thing for everyone.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

AlmostYoung said:


> Of course not. But neither can you command someone into loving and respecting you.


Except that is absolutely what you are recommending.



> The showing compassion, understanding, and yes even love, is the only way to allow time for her perception to change. It's what H's & W's who truly love their partner do. It's how disasters like the OP's situation are turned around. ONE partner takes the first step towards loving, and it effects the response from the other.


I don't think standing up for yourself means you can't show compassion or understanding. But to ignore the hateful things she said, and just be nice is madness. He can acknowledge and validate her pain and yet also insist that hateful comments are not permitted.



> And I don't believe in "THE" 180, like it is some kind of single entity and always the same.
> 
> 180's can be LOTS of different things. Any time you do the opposite of what you were doing in a particular situation, that's a 180.
> 
> It's not the same thing for everyone.


Well, the 180 has a specific meaning around here. Good luck trying to redefine it.


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## AlphaHalf (Aug 5, 2012)

what good is it to stay married to a woman who thinks your worthless. If you rugsweep this and brush it off it will validate her belief because you didn't react. This will lead to more resentment and lack of respect for you because she told you straight up and you continue to nice her back to reality.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AlmostYoung (May 24, 2012)

Tall Average Guy said:


> See, I see this, coupled with the other behavior, as a real lack of respect. The phone issue is a sure sign of it. She does not respect him. She has made that absolutely clear. Yet he should simply accept such hateful speech? He should not defend himself? I am at a loss.


There’s no question it is lack of respect! 

The question is how best to gain it back.

The phone issue deserves a boundary, as mentioned by someone above. 

“If you continue looking at your phone, I will no longer remain in this conversation.”

She’ll put it down. If she doesn’t, then you have to leave._ This needs to be done in a calm and cool manner, as a matter of principle, without being upset._ You enforce a boundary to show you respect yourself, and will not accept X behavior.

And yes! He should NOT defend himself. Defending himself won’t help, it will only lead to arguing. No matter what he says he will _*never*_ convince her that her feelings are wrong. Trying to do so will only make her dig in and become even more adament that she is right. It will not bring her back into the marriage.

Remember, the OP’s goal is to rebuild the marriage, not “Be Right” at all costs. Once they make it through this, their marriage will be stronger than it ever was before, and she will have nothing but respect for him.


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## AlmostYoung (May 24, 2012)

AlphaHalf said:


> what good is it to stay married to a woman who thinks your worthless.


That's what she thinks now. Is it what she always thought? Is it what she will think in the future? Feelings can change, they already have! They can change again.



> If you rugsweep this and brush it off it will validate her belief because you didn't react. This will lead to more resentment and lack of respect for you because she told you straight up and you continue to nice her back to reality.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


No doubt they have lots of issues to tend to. This doesn't mean they must be tended to right now. 

OP's M is in a tough spot right now. The worst thing to do is try to push for immediate and full reconcilation. (and respect, bla bla bla) Ain't gonna happen.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

AlmostYoung said:


> There’s no question it is lack of respect!
> 
> The question is how best to gain it back.
> 
> ...


I absolutely agree with this and have suggested something very similar.



> And yes! He should NOT defend himself. Defending himself won’t help, it will only lead to arguing. No matter what he says he will _*never*_ convince her that her feelings are wrong. Trying to do so will only make her dig in and become even more adament that she is right. It will not bring her back into the marriage.


Her "feelings" are that she wonders why he has not killed himself. 

If this were reversed, and he was calling her an evil b1tch that he wished were dead, and she was posting, no one would argue that she should put up with it or that she was at fault for failing to validate his feelings?



> Remember, the OP’s goal is to rebuild the marriage, not “Be Right” at all costs. Once they make it through this, their marriage will be stronger than it ever was before, and she will have nothing but respect for him.


I completely understand the goal of rebuilding the marriage. I have not counseled him to leave. I have asked what he gets out of the marriage to get a better sense of things.

I just don't see how accepting hateful speech and behavior leads to respect. That is a hard boundary to me. If you have issues, address them. Wondering why I have not killed myself yet is not doing so.

I am completely amazed that some people seem to be willing to give people a pass for the awful behavior just because their feelings are hurt. What she said is hateful - no two ways about it. Yet she is allowed and even encouraged to continue this, while he is expected to accept such treatment for some reason.


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## EnjoliWoman (Jul 2, 2012)

Sounds like she's not against getting help since she's on meds. I'd say it's time to see a marriage counselor to get to the bottom of things. Maybe she feels worthless due to lack of financial contributions and takes it out on you. Maybe she wants a different form of contribution from you. Maybe she's just stir-crazy being at home too much. A counselor can help you get to the bottom of her feelings and help you two reconcile.

You both fell in love with each other for a reason - you both just need to find out what that is again.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

AlmostYoung said:


> There’s no question it is lack of respect!
> 
> The question is how best to gain it back.
> 
> ...


Now we're talking. On this. That's exactly right defending myself always gets me into more trouble. She's so layered and complicated but the respect thing I believe stems from a major DAD/MEN issue. Her dad always demanded respect so in short she has trouble giving most men respect.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

I think this will be a major challenge. I don't, on one level, think that I should have to prove I'm worth something. Am I wrong? I'm angry that I should have to convince her of that. She is 150% in control of me. The 180 approach is something that appeals to me because I feel it's a way I can stand up for myself without her shutting me down or worse. In addition I agree in principle with the poster who recommended saying "I couldn't do this without you" etc etc and I always say that kind of stuff. I recognize 100% it's a team effort and praise her all the time. Something she never does for me.

Finally I've been asked 4 times what I'm getting out of this. I have a chance to maybe have someone love me. Not being a very love able guy, I'll take that.


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## matman (Aug 26, 2011)

EnjoliWoman said:


> Sounds like she's not against getting help since she's on meds. I'd say it's time to see a marriage counselor to get to the bottom of things. Maybe she feels worthless due to lack of financial contributions and takes it out on you. Maybe she wants a different form of contribution from you. Maybe she's just stir-crazy being at home too much. A counselor can help you get to the bottom of her feelings and help you two reconcile.
> 
> You both fell in love with each other for a reason - you both just need to find out what that is again.


Absolutely I'd love to. She refuses. We've tried before. One of her "things" in all areas of life not just relationships is to make problems really hard to solve.


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## Tall Average Guy (Jul 26, 2011)

matman said:


> Absolutely I'd love to. She refuses. We've tried before. One of her "things" in all areas of life not just relationships is to make problems really hard to solve.


Matman - I have read some of your previous posts. Here is your very first:



> Hi board!! brand new here. I'd like some advice on a long term issue that is non-judgemental and productive. I am happy to provide as much back story as I can but I'll try and keep it brief.
> 
> I have had a problem with porn for a long time. Since I was 14 and saw my first I loved it. When I was 16 I met my first serious girlfriend who had no problem with the porn and participated with me. I had no idea it was an issue I thought it was normal. I met my wife a few years later and we were married when we were 22. We got pregnant in 2006 and had our daughter in 2007. It was at that time that my wife found out and our relationship was of course forever changed. I finally was sober in 2009 and have remained so. My wife asked that I stopped masturbating and have since summer 2010. We got pregnant with our 2nd daughter in August 2010 and she was born May of this year.
> 
> ...


In about a year and a half, you moved to your wife now wondering why you have not killed yourself.

You also posted earlier that you as a man should sacrifice everything for her.

You need counseling to figure out why you think you deserve this. I also think that No More Mr. Nice Guy would be a good read for you.


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