# "Mad Men" and Manhood



## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

I have spent a lot of time watching "Mad Men" from AMC. It highlights what life was like in the early 60's, right before the huge Counter Culture movement.

The writers seem to want to highlight every negative of that time period, naturally being the product of the replacement culture.

However, I am...awed at a great deal of what I see there. There is a vast lexicon of body language, assumptions, bits of character, a sense of sophistication and a 'lust for life' which seems missing from how we carry ourselves and what we teach our young men.

I am hoping this is not just nostalgia on my part, and it's hard to get the wheat from the chaff of the blatant and (possibly) exaggerated misogyny, alcoholism, emotional distance and consistant and blatant infidelity which occurs...pretty much with every male figure in the show.

But there are moments such as when the Lead Don Drapper does something which hurts his company and puts at risk the future and finances of a younger partner. And he mans up and pays for that young man's share of finances.

And the entire exchange was carried out with a glance, a look and a raised glass.

What are your thoughts on the series, manhood from that time, your experiences from fathers and grandfather (or dare I say) yourself?


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## tacoma (May 1, 2011)

Quite honestly I find that show is pretty much on the money when compared to the men I knew growing up in that age.
Sadly
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JCD,
Fantastic show with brilliant writing, directing, acting and set design. 

I actually see it as a fairly balanced depiction of a cultural 'inflection point'. Perhaps the infidelity/general promiscuity is overdone, but if so it is overdone for both genders.

Which characters do you think dislike/hate women? IMO Pete doesn't count because he hates men too. 



QUOTE=JCD;1457146]I have spent a lot of time watching "Mad Men" from AMC. It highlights what life was like in the early 60's, right before the huge Counter Culture movement.

The writers seem to want to highlight every negative of that time period, naturally being the product of the replacement culture.

However, I am...awed at a great deal of what I see there. There is a vast lexicon of body language, assumptions, bits of character, a sense of sophistication and a 'lust for life' which seems missing from how we carry ourselves and what we teach our young men.

I am hoping this is not just nostalgia on my part, and it's hard to get the wheat from the chaff of the blatant and (possibly) exaggerated misogyny, alcoholism, emotional distance and consistant and blatant infidelity which occurs...pretty much with every male figure in the show.

But there are moments such as when the Lead Don Drapper does something which hurts his company and puts at risk the future and finances of a younger partner. And he mans up and pays for that young man's share of finances.

And the entire exchange was carried out with a glance, a look and a raised glass.

What are your thoughts on the series, manhood from that time, your experiences from fathers and grandfather (or dare I say) yourself?[/QUOTE]


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

There is a lack of emotional dependency and clinginess in the men on the show, that every male should work for. Those guys, especially Don, seem like they are their own man, not someone's(like a woman's) lapdog, which seems pretty cool.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I was a kid in that era, growing up in exactly that place. I think the show is pretty realistic, in both the depictions of men and women. Of course, it's drama, but it shows very well how different gender roles were not so long ago.

Don Draper is a complicated guy. He can be truly unprincipled and then stand up in what at first seem unexpected ways, but become expected as the series continues to unfold. His defense of Peggy and Joan is interesting and less selfish than the other men. And Betty is just as complex - a spoiled, well-educated, bored, beautiful suburban wife who is often not at all the nicest mother to her children. Given Don's upbringing, the fact that he is far kinder to his children is very interesting.


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

I can't help but think that Joan could eat the lunch of most modern women...and make the men BUY her lunch. 

Don seems a pretty straight and moral arrow except for sleeping with everything with a pulse except Peggy. He's had to do a few crappy things, but for the most part, he was forced into them.


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

JCD said:


> I can't help but think that Joan could eat the lunch of most modern women...and make the men BUY her lunch.
> 
> Don seems a pretty straight and moral arrow except for sleeping with everything with a pulse except Peggy. He's had to do a few crappy things, but for the most part, he was forced into them.


My son (25 yo) thinks Joan is the sexiest thing on two legs. In today's world she would be considered fat, but in life before Twiggy, there were women like Jayne Mansfield who defined sex symbol. When I told my son that I was surprised at his reaction & that I thought he would consider her overweight, he laughed lewdly and said, 'Yeah, right.'

I don't actually think Don is mostly a straight arrow, though. He treated his brother truly horribly and goes back and forth a lot, in my opinion. Again, I think the complexity is good - makes him more interesting and real to me. And Peggy is a piece of work. I knew women just like her. (Pete is the true creep to me...)


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

alte Dame said:


> My son (25 yo) thinks Joan is the sexiest thing on two legs. In today's world she would be considered fat, but in life before Twiggy, there were women like Jayne Mansfield who defined sex symbol. When I told my son that I was surprised at his reaction & that I thought he would consider her overweight, he laughed lewdly and said, 'Yeah, right.'
> 
> I don't actually think Don is mostly a straight arrow, though. He treated his brother truly horribly and goes back and forth a lot, in my opinion. Again, I think the complexity is good - makes him more interesting and real to me. And Peggy is a piece of work. I knew women just like her. (Pete is the true creep to me...)


There were a number of times he tried to take very difficult stands: keeping clients when the management wanted to try for the big money, telling Peter off when he acted poorly, not wanting to fire Sal, etc. But he treats Peg badly and he was faithles as a husband.

PAYING a doctor to reveal his wife's psychological issues was plain evil and I forgot that. His treatement of his brother was forced by the facade of a life he created. I can't see how he could have done anything different without his life exploding. 

Most of his failures were because of hard calls.

The person I find I loathe the more and more I see her is Betty. She has a single vision of life, she is a horrible mother in many ways, and she just arbitrarily lashes out at everyone and everything around her. The fact that she has a face and a rack to get away with this doesn't make her any better of a person, IMO.

That doesn't mean she hasn't been hurt and betrayed. But she wasn't a very good person BEFORE she got betrayed...and she's worse now.

Peter...just has this set of rules and behaviors and is like a little wind up robot, hitting the wall and changing direction and hitting a wall. He's a bit of a creep and not particularly trustworthy. 

But the entire emasculation he felt with his wife's family makes me a bit sympathetic to him. He doesn't know how to deal with these issues except with anger and seething frustration.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

JCD,
I agree with a lot of this and very much disagree with some of it. 

Don is somewhat harsh with everyone he is close to, Peggy included. He is her mentor and supporter, promotes and gives her an office and increasingly greater responsibility. She truly is his right hand. He is combative when she is pushy, but he respects her. And he is completely crushed when she leaves him right at the point where he can throw some real money her way. 

Betty is an accurate portrayal of a beautiful, spoiled, selfish bltch. But Don is often MIA as a parent as he goes on drunken womanizing benders and loses track of time. 

As for Pete. At minimum he coerced the neighbors au pair. We don't see if he crossed the line into what would legally be considered rape. We see the coercion and then hear first hand from the man of the 'house' that she is completely traumatized. Without doubt when Pete leaves she has been sexually abused. That goes well beyond 'creep' in my mind. 

QUOTE=JCD;1458145]There were a number of times he tried to take very difficult stands: keeping clients when the management wanted to try for the big money, telling Peter off when he acted poorly, not wanting to fire Sal, etc. But he treats Peg badly and he was faithles as a husband.

PAYING a doctor to reveal his wife's psychological issues was plain evil and I forgot that. His treatement of his brother was forced by the facade of a life he created. I can't see how he could have done anything different without his life exploding. 

Most of his failures were because of hard calls.

The person I find I loathe the more and more I see her is Betty. She has a single vision of life, she is a horrible mother in many ways, and she just arbitrarily lashes out at everyone and everything around her.gv The fact that she has a face and a rack to get away with this doesn't make her any better of a person, IMO.

That doesn't mean she hasn't been hurt and betrayed. But she wasn't a very good person BEFORE she got betrayed...and she's worse now.

Peter...just has this set of rules and behaviors and is like a little wind up robot, hitting the wall and changing direction and hitting a wall. He's a bit of a creep and not particularly trustworthy. 

But the entire emasculation he felt with his wife's family makes me a bit sympathetic to him. He doesn't know how to deal with these issues except with anger and seething frustration.[/QUOTE]


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## JCD (Sep 2, 2012)

I haven't seen season five yet.

My list of the 'worst' people in the show (In no particular order)

Joan's husband.
Betty
Peter
Stirling
The Lucky Strike Guy
The Hotel Guy

This leaves out the sin of infidelity, which would damn the lot of them...

The most damning scenes for Betty didn't even include her. The first was when Don's daughter ran into the arms of his secretary. Can you imagine ANY of those kids running to their mother for any comfort? The second was in Season 4 Tomorrowland. The kids spill a milkshake...and the secretary does NOT blow a gasket. "It's a milkshake."

All the kids and Don are looking at her like..."What's wrong with you? You are supposed to scream and pout and threaten to cut off fingers for the next scene..."


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## alte Dame (Aug 7, 2012)

I actually like Don on balance. He's a man's man who has an extremely disturbing secret. After all, he's supposed to be the genuine article and that's exactly, exactly what he isn't. He is either revered by those around him or he is feared and resented. The world is changing around him, though. He does the cliche' thing and marries his much younger secretary and she is very much an embodiment of the 60's birth control pill culture. Don is almost a dinosaur in this new world - you can literally see the slow slide he is on to emasculation with her. He even loses his ambition for advertising while under her spell. So, Don, the powerful, hypermasculine natural star of the supercompetitive ad world of ******* Avenue, becomes just another victim of time and female allure.

He's fighting back, though. I've no doubt that he'll win the battle with Megan. And all the while, Joan, who has been used and abused by men, is building her own power base that isn't just the secretarial pool and isn't dependent on her sleeping with the powerful men around her.


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