# No man is an island..still true?



## uhaul4mybaggage (Jul 20, 2010)

As I read the sex in marriage, divorce, and infidelity posts, I see a couple of recurring themes that I find interesting, and somewhat disturbing. (I was reading most recently the vibrator v porn thread in Sex, which prompted me to start this rather than rant on someone else's thread.)

We come to a new relationship "in the bubble." Because of the "love chemicals" rampant in us at that time, we are not seeing the other person as their whole self, (with their flaws) and vice versa. 

Plus, I would venture to say that we are not entirely our whole selves, either, as we are "under the influence" of said chemicals. I think that that prompts both men and women to go into "please the other" mode much more than would be normal for that person. NOT consciously. Men's romantic "courting" side gets brought out, and woman's libido and desire to please sexually is enhanced. Both partners are enjoying not only the other's loving ways, but the way they are when they are with them--their own loving ways. It creates a snowball effect--the love points depositing cycle that makes us sure this is the ONE.

I think a big problem we have is that we fully expect all of this to be a permanent fixture "till death do us part." People can tell us all day long (when we are in the bubble) that libido in long term relationships (read: marriage) waxes and wanes, that passionate romance will likely eventually be replaced by a more "mature" companionship kind of love. 

We can't hear it. We can't wrap our heads around the idea that that could happen to US, when we feel like THIS, NOW. (Unless we have been divorced and have really learned some things from it, which not all divorcees have.)

So we jump in, and down the road, we're wondering where it all went. Where's that little nympho that I married? Where's that Prince Charming that I married? (Did anyone else hear a POP?)

Yes, people are not willing to try to please their spouses. On either side. So many people today are so about themselves (narcissistic, basically,) when it comes down to it. And it only takes one in the relationship to be like that to sink the whole ship. Two, and you're bailing water before your rope is off the dock. 

Once the bubble pops, a lot of women realize they don't LIKE giving BJs. Or some other thing she was doing because he liked it, even though she didn't. Some continue, half-heartedly, which men can totally see through and causes big resentment. Some just take it off the menu, which also causes big resentment.

Men do the same thing with the things their women want. Different women want different things, but if it was there, and now it ain't, she is going to resent it if she was liking it before. 

The Narcissist will think, "but my wants/desires/feelings are more important than his/hers/other people's in general." Sound like anyone you know? How about ALMOST EVERYBODY?

I was married to one of those, and I'm watching with horror as my son turns into him. I love my son, but I swear, my gut turns for any girl foolish enough to fall for him. And there will be many. He is good looking and has his dad's charm. I want to tell her to RUN AWAY as fast as her size 2 legs will take her. GO READ ABOUT ALCHOHOLISM, TOO! I want to yell behind her. Save yourself.
But I probably won't. It would bounce off the bubble anyway. 

When you tell people you are engaged, 95 percent are happy for you. They throw you a party. Even the ones who are unhappily married (most of them, anyhow,) still wish you well in their hearts. Everyone wants you to succeed; it validates the things we WANT to believe in. But it seems like we're so shallow now. So used to disposing of things, even recycling spouses. This one no longer suits my needs. Upgrade or at least unload it. Are we, and our kids, just going to decide that having human relationships just isn't worth the effort anymore?

Do you think marriage is going to go the way of the Dodo? I'm starting to think so. I'm not sure if it's a good thing, a bad thing, or just a thing. What do you think?
(I'm going out for a while, so if I don't respond right away, that's why.)


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

I don't think marriage is not a thing of the past. Each marriage has issues and a lot of marriages work. One of the things I notice here is that a lot of the problems are sex based. One of the "love drugs" is oxytocin which helps with bonding with your partner. Frequent and good sex helps prevent the bubble that you discuss which is probably why the buble has burst for those that have sex issues.

But even if you have good sex you still need to stay in tune with your partner otherwise you will grow apart. I let this happen somewhat years ago and found ways to reconnect. It's like taking your car in for maintenance. Marriage is work and maintenance in addition to the fun and company.


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## unbelievable (Aug 20, 2010)

People don't persist in harmful or nonproductive activity forever. In it's present Western configuration, marriage has become a rotten deal, especially for many males. The ceremony instantly exposes the man to heavy financial obligations but does not really even seriously insinuate he will derive any tangible benefit at all. We already see evidence that fewer men are opting for marriage and those who do, choose to do so later in life. Throughout history, in virtually all cultures, marriage has been a mutually beneficial arrangement in which security was
exchanged for exclusive breeding rights and nurturing. During my lifetime, folks who assumed they could improve things have designed a world in which two people can marry and neither materially benefit or (more commonly), the benefits are one-sided, as are the obligations. The message that someone can "have it all" is detrimental to someone anticipating marriage. Marriage is about service and commitment, not about selfishly trying to seize advantage for oneself. If a young man sought my advise, I'd have a hard time recommending the institution to him with a straight face.


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## Ayrun (Jun 12, 2011)

Folks in modern relationships just expect too damn much of their partners. It's true. Never before have there been so many damn requirments to keep a spouse happy. Thing is, you're never gonna find that PERFECT person that matches EVERY little kink you have.

Imagine yerself with a good wife, she loves ya, cooks and cleans, has your children. But say she won't take it up the a55 like a good **** for you like you saw in some dirty movie. All of a sudden shes not meeting your 'needs.' 

As ridiculous as this sounds, I've seen guys do it. Friends I've long lost respect for as men. Goes both ways y'know, and I know that. I'm awful lucky with my lady, but see I'm not expectin her to know all the tricks of the town wh0re. She also aint expectin me to act like the guys in them romance books all the time.

There's a balance to keepin someone happy. Its like making a good pot of chilli. A bit of this, a dash of that, till the flavors mix and the meat tenderizes in the pot. My lady and I are still in love with eachother, we still do romantic things. She pleases me in the bedroom. Difference is, I take the lead.

I dont whine and cry about evry little thing dont go my way. If anything that shows I got strength as a man, and her seeing as more of a man is going to feel connected to me. 

Much of this art is lost to modern men and women, who get lost in the sex void and never feel satisfied no matter how many things get shoved up and shot on, and who knows where. You can have the craziest sex life and be as unhappy as hell. A house with lots of fancy decorations and a sh1tty foundation is gonna topple, gems and all.


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## Mr. Nail (Apr 26, 2011)

Unbelievable,

You hit that one right on the head. Young people need to learn about service and commitment by doing it. I have been recommending this (key club for example) to teens for years as a way to find better people to date. I see now that it is what makes them better people to date.

M N


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## Runs like Dog (Feb 25, 2011)

For one thing, the modern-ish construct of marriage as a contract or something having long term binding terms really arises out of an age where women had babies at 13 or 14 and if they didn't die in birth they could expect to be middle aged at 25 and live to perhaps 30 or 35. A 57 year old man in the middle ages was extraordinary and for most part a life span like that was reserved for the clergy, who, after 1141 weren't 'technically' allowed to marry and father children but anyone who's ever read Chaucer knows that was crap. And make no mistake, it's the Christian tradition in the west that adopted this view uniquely. Divorce has been part of Jewish family law for thousands of years. 

So when we say 'forever' and till death...we really mean for 12-15 years at best which is when of us would probably die.


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## PBear (Nov 16, 2010)

My GF has always discussed the idea of a relationship "lease"... Every 5 years, it would come up for renewal. It would reduce the risk of complacency, I think, and spouses taking each other for granted that they'll stay with them no matter what. It obviously doesn't work well for couples in a parenting situation, though...

Personally, I'm ok with that idea. But we're a long ways from that being an issue, one way or another.

C
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## uhaul4mybaggage (Jul 20, 2010)

Is that like re-election?  I think what people don't get is that they could be voted out by a vote of one at any time. Complacency is deadly. The marriage vow doesn't seem to make marriage all that much more immune to split than your average shack-up, these days (as opposed to, say, the pre-60's), but the process of having to actually divorce is so devastating financially, emotionally, and not just to the partners but also the kids. It just seems like most kids these days are going to take a vow of bachelorhood (or bachelorettehood) as a reaction to the world they've grown up in.

PB..I'm glad you guys are happy. That's all I really want for my son, bottom line. I hope he can get there one day, despite the example his dad and I have set.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Ultimately we are ALL selfish and simply want what we want, this is nothing new under the sun. Being aware of this fact of life & making da** sure we are compatible before we marry can 
avoid many many pitfalls after the vows.... 

What I will teach all of my children in how to choose a partner for life....this is my personal list so far...


*1.* *Don't have sex too soon*, it can create a bonding too fast, too soon (even a surprise pregnancy) where other important things are missed, overlooked. Hormones take over & common sense is LOST. TAKE TIME, get to know THE WHOLE PERSON, do things together, go places, make sure you genuinelly LIKE them, RESPECT them , and they should be on par as a BEST FRIEND before you take them to bed -if it can be helped of coare. A little romance is good ! 


*2*. *KNOW YOURSELF & KNOW WHAT YOU WANT FROM LIFE* , your hopes, your dreams. Have a vision, Be sure your this BF or GF can fit into this, wants the same things, will be a "helpmate" in these same dreams. Are you both old fashioned in our views, traditional marraige type thing or agree both parents need to work. 

*3*. * HAVE SIMILAR BELIEFS *and morals, so you will not spend the majority of your life judging the other and irratating them to anger over doctrine, etc. 

*4.* *COMMUNICATION* - -know how to resolve conflict !! When I hear of couples who have been going out a few months, 
they think they have found "the one" sometimes I ask , did you have your 1st fight yet ? UNtil you have a few of those, you simply do not know each other well. 

Every marraige will struggle if communication is not used effectively. If one is a Silent Treatment player, this has to be nipped in the butt. Be a listener as well as an effective communicator of your needs. Be open, honest in all things, undertanding & forgiving when it is called for . 

*And NO secrets*. I have found this keeps us accountable to our spouses. 

*5*. *Do you agree on how to spend MONEY ?* This is the #2 reason for Divorce. Don't think one will change, the habits you see in dating are likely habits for life. Know what you are marrying, a spender who will need HIGH cash volumes for happiness or a Saver who can relax a little , put his feet down some & still get his bills paid. 

*6.* *SEX* ! Compatability is very important here - especially IF YOU LOVE SEX ! Many women's drives can take a dive after marraige & kids, knowing if she is a PLEASER by nature will be very helpful , if she can orgasm, does she feel passionate desire ? A ton of talking needs to be done here --what one expects in marraige & what is agreed upon -how to handle the dry spells ect. Even enjoyment of a little PORN should be openly discussed- so no surprises later & hurt feelings. And always keep the sex Spicey, buy a game, get a book, keep learning. It may be less than 10% of the marraige, but when it is lacking, it may feel like 90% of the problems. 

*7. **Kids*, how many , how to discipline them. Important ! 

*8*. *Sexual attraction*, never underestimate it, a plan to keep the pounds off -if this is important to one partner, it is for BOTH.

*9*. *Do you genuinely ENJOY each other*, crave to be with the other, laugh together ALOT, love getting away alone. Are you both Home buddies or both more the party type? Being similar can be very helpful here. 

*10*. *LOVE LANGUAGES *- since we are ALL sefish, we should try to marry someone who closely matches our same love languages in a similar order. As we generally GIVE what we want to RECIEVE -unless we are just plain lazy. 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...-languages-how-does-affect-your-marraige.html

one more - 

*11*. Know yours & your partners *Inborn Temperments *so you can understand them , how they think, why they react the way they do - this helps us know their strenghts -as well as their weaknesses.

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/genera...ments-our-spouses-better-understand-them.html

These are the things I will teach my children so they will marry well. I didn't know all of this when I married my husband, I think we just got LUCKY - but we have all of this going on and it has, for the most part, been a breeze. 


......and please BE SURE TO NOT Marry a NARCISSIST !


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Excellent post SimplyAmorous! Those are great guidelines! I completely agree that Sex too soon does cause one to forget (or discount) about many of the others. I think that communication is the most important one. If you can communicate then you can determine all the answers to the rest.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

meson said:


> Excellent post SimplyAmorous! Those are great guidelines! I completely agree that Sex too soon does cause one to forget (or discount) about many of the others. I think that communication is the most important one. If you can communicate then you can determine all the answers to the rest.


Me & my husband never lacked communication since day one, but the talking about SEX part we did lack unfortunetly, we were both too conservative minded, embarrassed, hard to even explain. 

I often wish we could go back in time & had been more FREE in this area. Young married people should not be the way we was, we had everything else right but this 1 thing. We were missing each other. 

When my sons marry, I plan to buy their new bride a book like this for her Bridal shower -- Amazon.com: Sheet Music: Uncovering the Secrets of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage (9782913356559): Kevin Leman: Books ...and some HOT HOT HOT lingerie to get things off to a smoking start. 

I will look forward to this - camera in hand as she blushes . 

(My 2 older sons are planning on waiting for their wedding day to have sex), so far, so good. It will be curious to see if they can hold out. Both wear their purity rings proudly.


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## meson (May 19, 2011)

Wow, your list was out into use this evening. What timing. In the sense of the OP there is another symptom of the "bubble" which the forum calls fog. The way I read SimplyAmorous don't have sex too early is that once you get into the fog too early it's hard to find your way out. 

Today a local scandal had another development in which someone that my daughter and myself knows was arrested for having sex with a minor in addition to the fact that the fellow arrested was also worked as staff for a company which the girl was a customer. My take on the events is this guy is basically a good person but entered into the fog and made poor decisions. Another person where he worked was involved in something far worse and as a result their relationship was uncovered. I think he was in the fog of the relationship and made bad decisions. So his bubble popped and he is in jail. 

Because of this my wife and I had a talk about your points with our daughter this evening. I think that it's a good idea to start these dicussions before she or my boys are in a relationship so that they are not in the fog when they are hearing it from us. Even so we got the TMI reaction. 

However I disagree with waiting until marriage for sex. How are they to know how compatible they are if they don't have any experience with it? Don't rush but some knowledge is better than none.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

meson said:


> However I disagree with waiting until marriage for sex. How are they to know how compatible they are if they don't have any experience with it? Don't rush but some knowledge is better than none.


Accually I am not even advocating this. I just mentioned that my 2 sons are planning on doing this- their choice by their own accord. 

They are heavily involved in youth groups that teach this & have been convinced this is what God wants . Personally I think they take it TOO FAR & set kids up for a sexual FALL with much guilt & shame following with these teachings. Did a thread on the whole "Silver Ring thing" program & was seeking others opionions here >> http://talkaboutmarriage.com/family...r-silver-ring-thing-purity-ring-movement.html

Me & mine waited for intercourse but we did the whole roving hands thing pretty steady & heavily so he was WELL AWARE I enjoyed sex & could easily orgasm by his touch. 

Besides not talking about sex & being more spicey in our youth -because I had purity hangups with guilt about what we DID DO, I guess we were very lucky. I ALWAYS felt he knew exactly what to do with me & from the very beginning until now, seriously 90% of the time we orgasm together, love that , wouldn't want it any other way. Him also. 

ONe plus I guess is, without knowing what another man is like, I have nothing to compare. Blessing -likely so. I am very happy, can't imagine the "bonding" , even pleasure to be any better really. 

However, I can imagine more excitement & erotic craziness with another but is that what really matters? I have to tell myself "NO". (Bad boy sex)- can't say I haven't went there in the fantasy realm. 

In my youth, that is something they pounded into you , if you have sex with this boyfriend, WHAT IF He was a better lover than your future husband .....it may plague you. I've seen it talked about on these forums even, these comparisons to past lovers so men & women KNOW what they are missing and can't get past it. Generally, there may be other issues in the marraige to start picking on this, but it happens. 

I personally would say it IS a HUGE risk if you go into marraige having never layed a hand on your fiance , not knowing if they even CRAVE your touch, or if the wife has never masterbated. (I worry about my sons here!) Too often THESE women who never had "that urge" are VERY LOW DRIVE . Could be many problems ahead if she is not the pleaser type. 

SO if you do OTHER things-yet still wait for intercourse, like we did, I guess I feel it is a good alternative --if couples can handle it (Most can not). I remember at the beginning our dating when he started touching me there -thinking "Oh my GOd, how are we going to wait - this feels tooooooooo freaking goooooood" but somehow we managed to get through this! Ha ha 

But I for one, I surely would not judge anyone for having a little sexual experimentation, just BE RESPONSIBLE with it, after all, sex can create LIFE. It should NEVER be taken too lightly.

My 2 cents on these things.

That is so neat you are talking to your daughter about my list - love that.  Thank you for sharing this.


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## uhaul4mybaggage (Jul 20, 2010)

I had been engaged, hurt, spared. I met my husband, and was still quite gunshy. When he started pushing me into jewelry stores, I told him "forever is a long time." But somehow, he made me believe. Because I guess I wanted to believe again. 
I would give almost anything to have been wrong. But apparently, forever is a long time. 
and now this f*g divorce is taking forever, too.


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