# Seeking advice on rebuilding marriage with very angry wife...



## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

I've been reading this board for about a year and I finally feel the need to vent and seek some advice. A little background. This may be a little long, but I've noticed that the responses seem to be more relevant when there are more facts in the original post.

My wife told me in marriage counseling about 18 months ago that she does not love me and many times does not even like who I am as a man. We went to counseling because we fought often. A lot of the problem stemmed from my verbal abuse and, as our MC put it "not fighting fair." (MC also said verbal abuse was mutual). Basically, when I felt hurt or unloved by her, I would say things that I knew would trigger a response. For example, I would point out that she was acting cold and unloving - "just like her mother." I would also use things she shared with me to attack her - like stating that her college boy friend probably cheated on her because she did not initiate physical initimacy. My wife has NEVER (not once) initiated sex with me or (as she has told me and our MC) anyone else she has been intimate with (2 others). She also would does not say "I love you," though she would always say "I love you too." 

[Side note - I do not believe she was ever sexually abused. My wife comes from a family where her mother shows ZERO (and I mean ZERO) physical affection towards her husband or kids and is very uncomfortable with being touched. She is not a mean person and I have grown to have sympathy for her. Still, I am convinced that she has Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, as she constantly criticizes everyone around her and will repeat the criticism often despite being asked to stop. My wife recently told me that her parents fought all the time when she was growing up. Her dad appears to be a borderline narcissist and falls within the classic Alpha-male Asian father stereotype (everyone unquestionably does what he wants, eats where he wants to eat, etc.), though he is VERY warm to me and most people.] 

When my wife told me in counseling that she did not love me and often did not like me as a person, this sent me into a great depression. After that we went through a very tough patch where we were not intimate for about 3 months. We continued counseling and things slowly got better, with occasional blow ups. She still has never initiated sex, but will once every couple of months initiate a kiss when she walks in the door. 

After several rounds of MC, I have come to realize that my wife cannot handle ANY amount of criticism. If there is a fight and I say "I am 90% in the wrong here, but you did play a part in this..." she goes absolutely screaming nuts crazy ("So it's all MY fault..."). Every disagreement ends only with me taking FULL responsibility for the fight. If I even hint at something she could have done differently, she loses it. 

She has also told me that I can't "demand" that she be physically affectionate or say loving words to me. She says that I have to "inspire" her to have those feelings. I have asked her what that means, and she says that I have to "consistently" be a good man, husband, father and son-in-law (I am occasionally (but not always) difficult when I am dragged against my will to Korean restaurants). So I will be good for a couple of months - no change. I then do something inconsiderate (basically being cranky and irritated) and she then goes off on me about not being a "good guy." This results in me criticizing her for being unaffectionate, which she says is caused by me not "inspiring" her, etc. 

I told her that I feel like I am in a no-win situation, because I have to try hard, never faulter and hope, after years of perfection, that will "inspire" her to love me again. Meanwhile, I have read all sorts of MC materials that say I am supposed to communicate my needs to her. I have done so using the "I feel that..." approach and it still does not work. Last night I said that "I feel that you are requiring perfection from me..." she completely lost it and accused me of intentionally trying to use a "trigger word" to inflame her and that it was my fault she loses it with me.

While in her rage last night, she again told me that she is still struggling to "like me" and must do that before she can love me the way I want. She recently went back to our counselor who basically told her to tell me that she needs space when she is upset. I have given that to her.

I would try to go again to couple's therapy, but it usually does not end well, unless the focus is on me. I don't mind that and it has helped me, but whenever the focus shifts to her, she quickly spirals out of control and becomes severely depressed and/or angry.

Meanwhile, I am trying to stay focused on being a good husband and father. I am also working out a lot and have got into very good shape. I feel better about myself than I have in years. Still, it's hard to live with a person who says she does not love me and calls into question my character on a fairly frequent basis and uses it as an excuse for her unresolved issues.

Help!


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## okeydokie (Sep 10, 2008)

could she possibly be in the throws of menopause? alot of her actions sound hormonal, as in they are out of balance


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## Deejo (May 20, 2008)

Have you brought up and discussed ending the marriage?

Do you love her? If so, why?


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> My wife recently told me that her parents fought all the time when she was growing up. Her dad appears to be a borderline narcissist
> 
> it's hard to live with a person who says she does not love me and calls into question my character on a fairly frequent basis and uses it as an excuse for her unresolved issues.


Yes. This is called loving someone who has made themselves unlovable, usually due to a combination of self loathing and not having childhood needs met. She blames you for all the bad feelings that engulf and overwhelm her.

My observation is that all your troubled interactions are verbal. No hitting or throwing, staying out all night or staying in bed all day.

The first best thing you can do is get yourself into a frame of mind where nothing she says can affect you. This may take some doing, but only when you have developed an inner peace that cannot be rocked by anything she says, only then will you be able to provide the leadership needed to pull her out of the abyss of selfishness she has found herself falling into.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

Thanks for the comments. Regarding bringing up divorce. When the whole "I don't even like you" incident happened, I spiraled out of control for a few weeks. I brought up divorce and she basically said "if that's what you want, fine." She is clearly torn and has a lot of mixed feelings. There was a time that our MC told me that "she might be looking for an excuse to get a divorce, don't give her one." We interact with her parents often. Her parents would be REALLY upset at her if she instituted a divorce and couldn't point to infidelity or something else concrete as a reason. 

We have not talked about divorce in over a year and even then it was not a serious discussion. 

For all my griping, I do love her. When things are good between us, they feel really good. That makes it all the more hurtful when she sinks down into a low and tells me "it's been 15 years of hell being married to you. No one could put up with this kind of abuse." 

Re hormones. I think it is a little early for menopause. However, when she PMS's she is especially nutty. It got to the point that I used an iphone application (meant to measure times of fertility) to remind me when her PMS was about to begin! She was prescribed an anti-depressant to deal with this, but stopped taking it almost immediately. When I mentioned that maybe she should take it she basically said "You just want me drugged up..."

I am at a place now where I can disengage from her when she gets explosive. I am not hysterical like I was 16 months ago. I want to deal with this in a calm constructive way. I am seeing (alone) our MC tonight.

Another note - a couple of times when things get really bad and she has spiraled downward she has said that she feels bad for me - that maybe she can't give me the kind of love that I need and that maybe we are just too different from each other. (Further side note - I am the oldest child and my mom was extremely flattering and loving to me as a child and still is to this day. She is also affectionate towards my dad and often forgives his at times verbally abusive behavior by saying that he is a "good person"). I understand our backgrounds are very different on several levels, but I want to make this work, both for our own happiness and for the kids.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Yes. This is called loving someone who has made themselves unlovable, usually due to a combination of self loathing and not having childhood needs met. She blames you for all the bad feelings that engulf and overwhelm her.
> 
> My observation is that all your troubled interactions are verbal. No hitting or throwing, staying out all night or staying in bed all day.
> 
> *The first best thing you can do is get yourself into a frame of mind where nothing she says can affect you.* This may take some doing, but only when you have developed an inner peace that cannot be rocked by anything she says, only then will you be able to provide the leadership needed to pull her out of the abyss of selfishness she has found herself falling into.


It is a case of detaching. The bond between a man and his wife can be massive, much like we have them inside of us, like a Matryoshka doll Matryoshka doll - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. It’s the only way at the moment I can think of describing it.

Because they’re on the inside of us, they’re right under our skin, inside our boundaries, our defences. And while we’re holding them there they sure can cause us a lot of pain with their words.

That’s one of the reasons I like that book Awareness so very much. It helps us detach, separate such that they are no longer on the inside of us and we can therefore see them clearly. It takes a while though to make the separation such that we are an individual once again.


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## 827Aug (Apr 27, 2008)

It's going to be next to impossible to rebuild your marriage while your wife is angry. She needs to begin individual counseling to resolve her anger issues first. Perhaps it stems from low self esteem, stress, and/or depression. I've been there in life, and I can relate to what she is experiencing.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

827Aug said:


> It's going to be next to impossible to rebuild your marriage while your wife is angry. She needs to begin individual counseling to resolve her anger issues first. Perhaps it stems from low self esteem, stress, and/or depression. I've been there in life, and I can relate to what she is experiencing.


Surely only when her words no longer wound him, can he help her? Because when she wounds him with her acts of covert aggression, he retaliates with his acts of aggression and that escalates the problems.

He also sounds like a covertly aggressive person, so he too will wound his wife. He is aware of that behaviour which is an exceedingly good thing but something he must put a stop to if his marriage is to improve.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

It seems to me a lot of people don’t understand the difference between anger and aggression. The guy has an aggressive wife. He needs to learn how to protect himself from her aggression such that she’s no longer able to wound him. She’ll likely stop when she sees it has no effect on him.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

I played a part in creating this dynamic. I enjoy debating and my job requires me to do it often. My wife is very smart but just does not have the same debating skills that I have. I think years of me twisting arguments to win a battle are losing me the war. She has learned that if she loses it, she "wins" the debate. I realize that and now try to respond to her feelings rather than pick apart the minutia of the point she is making. That has helped other topics we discuss, e.g., kids and money. However, when it comes to "us" and my feelings she quickly spirals into yelling. 

So far the best answer is for me just to shut up when she starts losing it or (more often) just not bring up the subject of what I expect in our relationship. Honestly, most of her complaints of specific conduct are valid. However, when we are talking about us the specific issue discussion turns into a character assassination. This does not happen when we talk about the kids or money.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Three kids, woman over 40, chaotic family of origin and an almost neurotic father. None of this bodes well. 

However powerful it may be, marital love alone is not enough to overcome childhood trauma and the emotional damage it causes.

To the extent your wife can understand that her anger comes from past hurts caused by her parents and if she can identify those hurts and forgive her parents for the wrongs they have done to her, she can free herself from this undercurrent of anger that circulates through all her emotions. 

To the extent that love, support and empathy from her partner can help her find the strength and direction to to do this, we can back out of the current situation. The op needs to gently and firmly insist that his wife own her anger, determine the cause and take positive steps to let it go. And she needs to agree that this is a priority


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> I played a part in creating this dynamic. I enjoy debating and my job requires me to do it often. My wife is very smart and a native English speaker, but just does not have the same debating skills that I have. I think years of me twisting arguments to win a battle are losing me the war. She has learned that if she loses it, she "wins" the debate. I realize that and now try to respond to her feelings rather than pick apart the minutia of the point she is making. That has helped other topics we discuss, e.g., kids and mmoney. However, when it comes to "us" and my feelings she quickly spirals into yelling.
> 
> So far the best answer is for me just to shut up when she starts losing it or (more often) just not bring up the subject of what I expect in our relationship. Honestly, most of her complaints of specific conduct are valid. However, when we are talking about us the specific issue discussion turns into a character assassination. This does not happen when we talk about the kids or money.


You are showing serious signs of self awareness. Which is seriously good. It’s your ego that knows all about winning a debate but if the goal is to win, it sure as heck means that you intend the person you are debating with to lose.

So in order for you to win and them to lose, you WILL change your position. Even if it’s a most fundamental position on which your whole initial debate depended upon. Where your wife is going wrong is in not recognising that in you and simply walking away from your debate and leaving you “hanging”.

The type of behaviour you have is extremely frustrating for the person you are debating with. And out of that frustration can come a very high level of anger and if you, in your “debate” get right under your wife’s skin such that you wound her she may very well retaliate with acts of aggression to “Hurt you back”. In fact her telling you she doesn’t love you could very well be a defence mechanism. It sure was when I told my wife I didn’t love her just before we split. What I meant was that I withdraw my love from her because to love her became too painful for me. I hope that makes sense to you.

Your debating skills should be turned from I win/you lose to I win/You win. Because as sure as you know very well, for you to Win is for you to Lose! The only result that works is Win/Win and that’s what you must head for.

You already have a fairly well developed observer consciousness, you observe your “ego in action” very well. Guess how to develop your ego consciousness even further? Read Awareness: Amazon.co.uk: Anthony De Mello: Books.

After a little while your wife will see very big changes in you. The dynamics between the two of you will change. And then she will begin to change.

And always, but always go for Win/Win because it’s the only thing that works long term.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

I will definitely give the Awareness book a read. Thanks for the advice.

The MC agreed with a lot of the advice here. She basically agrees that my wife has huge unresolved issues with her parents. She also agreed that I can't force her to deal with them, but just continue to work to make myself stronger so that my wife's actions do not harm me.

I decided to take a "if you can't beat them, join them approach" tonight. I told my wife that I understand that she was raised in a way that her happiness is tied to the approval of her parents, or, at least in the active pursuit of the happiness of her family. I told her that I realize that she and her family perceive me as an extension of my wife that when I act in a way that undermines her efforts to seek or obtain approval this makes her feel less connected to me. I told her since her family's happiness is tied to going to restaurants that I would realize that from now on when we all go out. I will represent her in a positive way by not being rude and troublesome about the food and restaurant and to engage with everyone while there.

From past experience, I KNEW this is what she wanted, but also KNEW she would not offer her appreciation for my statement. Instead, she basically said that she did not trust that I would be "a man of my word" and that I should write down (this is a new one) what I said so that I couldn't later say "that's not what I said." Instead of getting upset at her for her negativity, which often happens, I embraced her idea and said "that's a good idea, I will send it to an email to both of us so there's no confusion in the future as to what I said." 

She then said that "I don't need to see it, just write it down for yourself." Undaunted and keeping positive I said, I don't want there to be any confusion that I am writing down what I said. She then said "I don't need a legal document - if you truly mean what you are saying, you will write down what you just said." I then sent the email anyway and never once reacted or otherwise showed that she was getting to me. 

Not sure if I am just encouraging bad behavior and her dysfunctional relationship with me and her parents, but I figured it was worth a try, just to show her that her behavior was not bothering me.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> I will definitely give the Awareness book a read. Thanks for the advice.
> 
> The MC agreed with a lot of the advice here. She basically agrees that my wife has huge unresolved issues with her parents. She also agreed that I can't force her to deal with them, but just continue to work to make myself stronger so that my wife's actions do not harm me.
> 
> ...


Change can take a while. There are three things going on 1) You changing your behaviour 2) Your wife recognising/seeing you change and 3) your wife changing her behaviour to adjust.

In the case above you “spoke” about change. Why? I’d guess that you were looking for approval from your wife, or that you wanted her appreciation, gratitude? If that’s the case, wrong move! And you can see what happened.

Be the changed person you want to be. Then use your “observer consciousness” to observe your wife’s behaviour once she notices the change in you. You have a fantastic example to practice with wrt the Korean restaurants.

As an aside, criticise those restaurants and you criticise her whole culture. Criticise her culture, you criticise her, she may even interpret that, far from loving her as you say you do, you actually dislike her!


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

"So far the best answer is for me just to shut up when she starts losing it or (more often) just not bring up the subject of what I expect in our relationship."

No.Wrong moves.

First, if she starts to "lose it", get up and end the conversation. Tell her that you aren't going to be spoken to that way.

Nor are you going to sit there and take it. If the conversation is civil, then discuss and make sure you are heard.

Finally, just not bringing up your expectations for the relationship will keep you in this situation. As a partner in this marriage you have a right to let her know what your expectations are, as long as you do so in a civil manner.


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## Machiavelli (Feb 25, 2012)

Do3GK,

Are you aware of the concept of relationship "game?"


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> she basically said that she did not trust that I would be "a man of my word" and that I should write down (this is a new one) what I said so that I couldn't later say "that's not what I said." Instead of getting upset at her for her negativity, which often happens, I embraced her idea and said "that's a good idea, I will send it to an email to both of us so there's no confusion in the future as to what I said."
> 
> She then said that "I don't need to see it, just write it down for yourself." Undaunted and keeping positive I said, I don't want there to be any confusion that I am writing down what I said. She then said "I don't need a legal document - if you truly mean what you are saying, you will write down what you just said." I then sent the email anyway and never once reacted or otherwise showed that she was getting to me.


Now we're getting somewhere. She doesn't trust you so she asks you to write it down. When you agree, then she doesn't need it written down.

From here your best tactic is to find a way to agree with everything she says:

(her) You're being a jerk
(you) I can see why you would say that. You're right

(her) You think you're always right
(you) I never thought of that, you're right

(her) You always say mean things to me
(you) Yes I do, you're right. I'm very sorry

She is going to disagree with everything you say. When you agree with her, she disagrees which means she disagrees with herself. Eventually anyone will see the absurdity of this.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Ten_year_hubby said:


> Now we're getting somewhere. She doesn't trust you so she asks you to write it down. When you agree, then she doesn't need it written down.
> 
> From here your best tactic is to find a way to agree with everything she says:
> 
> ...


Can’t see that two children added together ever made an adult.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

How does poking and yanking an angry wife’s chain calm her down? That’s a shet test met by a shet test, an act of aggression met by an act of aggression. An escalation of the guy’s troubles.


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## Ten_year_hubby (Jun 24, 2010)

AFEH said:


> How does poking and yanking an angry wife’s chain calm her down? That’s a shet test met by a shet test, an act of aggression met by an act of aggression. An escalation of the guy’s troubles.


I humbly disagree. We need to be careful not confuse an irrational woman with a rational man. Agreeing with one's disagreeable wife has a long history of reducing anger and emotional tension. Also being agreeable puts a positive behavior on the table for the disagreeable partner to model. No poking, no yanking, no aggression. Simple agreement that she's right because she's right. Everyone has a right to be right and some people's needs are much greater than others.


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## Stonewall (Jul 5, 2011)

Kevlar is expensive but start there. Also a really good ballistic plate would be helpful.

I thought a momentary smile would help!
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

More helpful comments. I am about half way through Awareness. Great stuff. 

AFEH - your comment about seeking immediate approval just for "saying" I've changed is spot on. Her reaction was predictable based on previous conduct, so part of what I was doing was also actually looking for her to disappoint me. Again - looking for her to dictate how I feel. Bad idea!

I agree the better approach is simply to do for the sake of doing. To enjoy being there and remove any fears and prejudices I may have towards different foods and cultures. I don't eat much fish, but today just went out with a better mood and ordered fish for lunch. Basically told myself there is no reason I shouldn't enjoy it it was fresh and well-prepared and I enjoyed it. Instead of calling my wife to tell her about my experience, I just enjoyed it for myself.

Honestly, I have a strong feeling that if I just love my wife without conditions and choose not to let her dictate how I feel, life will be much better.

I am also trying to change my perspective. Thought again about her parents. Despite the oddness of their relationship, I can tell that my mother in law loves her husband. When my wife emulates that and I reject that it is rejecting what she knows to be love. Asking for her to act differently is a lot like asking her to lay golden eggs. I met her mother before we got married several times and should have expected that some of that would have rubbed off, especially once kids entered the picture and my wife aged.

Since I can't change her, better to change my outlook, not let her tell me how I should feel and, if nothing else, I will be a lot less miserable.


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## Trenton (Aug 25, 2010)

Are you sure that when she tells you that she doesn't even like you as a man she doesn't actually mean that she doesn't like herself as a woman?

Is it possible that she's getting to a re-evaluation point in her life and second guessing what you two have built together, how it reflects on her and how she feels about herself?

I know when I was struggling through a transition and finding it difficult I declared World War III on my husband. We're lucky, or more aptly I am lucky, that there were two winners and no losers because sometimes when you win, you lose.

You may be a *safe* place for her to take out her angst, confusion and dissatisfaction with herself and her life. 

I'm not saying that this is OK or that you should tolerate it, but perhaps if you approach it with this new understanding then you will have more control over how you respond and be able to lead her to a happier her, and in return a happier, stronger you and her. 

I'm betting this all has more to do with her than it does with you.


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## MEM2020 (Aug 23, 2009)

Totally agree. 

And after she is hostile and disrespectful to you - do NOT try to MAKE UP with her. She acts like this because you end up apologizing for her bad behavior. Which simply reinforces it. 

Try an experiment - totally ignore her after she does that. And let her approach you. Don't express anger - just be silent. 




Chris Taylor said:


> "So far the best answer is for me just to shut up when she starts losing it or (more often) just not bring up the subject of what I expect in our relationship."
> 
> No.Wrong moves.
> 
> ...


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Dadof3greatkids, do you know much of your wife’s culture, have you researched it? I had a seriously good friend who worked in SK for a few years, said they were exceedingly dominant, competitive and aggressive. May be worth Googling Korean culture aggression. Even though your wife has lived essentially in the States all her life, these cultural things certainly do rub off. And they’re hanging onto their culture and bringing it into your life what with the restaurants.

I’ve a feeling that you may have to be a lot more dominant, assertive and competitive with your wife for her to be able to be happy and in love with you.

Do you think that a really crazy notion?


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## LastUnicorn (Jul 10, 2012)

:scratchhead: from what you have posted, you have trained her to be this way. Years of not fighting fair, using unfair comparisons to diminish her self worth, excusing irrational outbursts on lack of meds, toying with her by 'debating' to the point of intellectually torturing her. Now that she is acting and reacting the way you do, you are calling foul?

There is a real lack of respect here on both sides, why is it her job to fix it? Everyone has their issues and triggers and bad habits to work on, but if you grind a girl to salt and complain she is salty - lol. 

This will take a lot of work and more importantly, consistency on your part to see a softening of the guard on her side, IMHO.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

LastUnicorn said:


> :scratchhead: from what you have posted, you have trained her to be this way. Years of not fighting fair, using unfair comparisons to diminish her self worth, excusing irrational outbursts on lack of meds, toying with her by 'debating' to the point of intellectually torturing her. Now that she is acting and reacting the way you do, you are calling foul?
> 
> There is a real lack of respect here on both sides, why is it her job to fix it? Everyone has their issues and triggers and bad habits to work on, but if you grind a girl to salt and complain she is salty - lol.
> 
> This will take a lot of work and more importantly, consistency on your part to see a softening of the guard on her side, IMHO.


I think you make exceedingly good points. But as far as I can see the really good thing is that Dadof3greatkids has become aware of his own at the very least antagonistic if not outright aggressive shet testing behaviour.

Poke a person, shet test them and pull their chain often, long and hard enough they sure as heck will run out of patience, tolerance, understanding and maybe at the end of the day even love. And they will be angry, maybe even aggressive.

Dadof3greatkids has proven himself as being capable of getting out of and away from his own ego long enough to see how he contributes to the dysfunctional and maybe even psychologically and emotionally abusive dynamics within his marriage.

This is the very first step and the absolutely essential ingredient required to get his marriage back on the right track. “Know your problems and own them” because only then can you fix your side of the dynamic.

The more he gets into his “Observer Consciousness” through putting Awareness into practice, the more he will stop shet testing and poking his wife, pulling her chain. The more that happens the less angry she will (or at least should) be and then peace, harmony, love and respect will once again have chance to move in on their marriage.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Anger is one of the base emotions, its there for a reason and there’re many reasons why its there, why a person gets angry. A person’s anger may be either passive or active or a mixture of both. But anger in any of its forms is not something we can avoid in our life, either our own anger or somebody else’s anger.

We can’t help but be angry. But what we can do is understand, control and manage our own anger and desist in doing things that make others angry, most especially our partner in our marriage.

And that’s the first step for the OP, to desist in doing things that make his wife angry. It sounds to me like passive/covert aggression, that he gets under his wife’s skin and when there wounds her such that she is hurt and gets angry. If it is passive aggression and he has recognised it and wants to change then that is a massive thing for him, his wife and his marriage.

By being Aware and by having Healthy Boundaries (I WILL NOT BE A PASSIVE AGGRESSIVE) he will quickly become an exceedingly different person to who he was just yesterday. Change can happen that quickly within a man.

His problem then becomes that his wife still sees who he was yesterday, last week, last year even though he stands in front of her a changed man. So she will interact with who he was, not the man he has become. And in this way unless he is very careful she will hold him to the man he was, not the changed and changing man he is now.

To prevent this from happening, all he need do is continue to be Aware, to continue observing his wife and himself using his Observer Consciousness. That is all he need do.



Once he “reacts” to his wife using his ego from "yesterday", then he steps right back and into the shoes of the man he was, not the man he has become and things will be back to square one.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Chris Taylor said:


> "So far the best answer is for me just to shut up when she starts losing it or (more often) just not bring up the subject of what I expect in our relationship."
> 
> No.Wrong moves.
> 
> ...


I wonder have you ever had to deal with a passive aggressive?

If you were observing a husband and wife but couldn’t hear what they were saying to one another, but then one of them starts getting angry, intense and maybe even raises their voice it’s exceedingly natural to assume that they are the aggressor.

In fact I’d say that as much as 90% of people would assume that the visibly angry person is the aggressor, but that the vast majority of them would be wrong. People get angry for a reason and their reason may well be justified.

For example, the OP is a professional debater and he seems to have thought that winning his debates with his wife at ANY COST was a good thing, such was his need to WIN.

But what does that mean for his wife? Most certainly that she’s not being heard. Most certainly that her needs and emotions are of no consequence to her husband. That she is in fact being “stonewalled”, unable to express herself such that she is not only heard but feels that she’s heard, which is of course one of the precursors to a failed marriage. Quite simply because his wife will feel unloved and unwanted and may well give up.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> I am also trying to change my perspective. Thought again about her parents. *Despite the oddness of their relationship, I can tell that my mother in law loves her husband.* When my wife emulates that and I reject that it is rejecting what she knows to be love. Asking for her to act differently is a lot like asking her to lay golden eggs. I met her mother before we got married several times and should have expected that some of that would have rubbed off, especially once kids entered the picture and my wife aged.


Have you befriended your FIL? Do you do things that you both enjoy and bond you together?

If not why not develop a better relationship with him and just maybe he’ll start opening up about how best to treat a Korean woman, give you some insider tips. I wouldn’t ask for them and I’d certainly not express any problems you have wrt your wife as that will be seen as a criticism.

But you could start off a conversation something like “what is it that you do that contributes mostly to the success of your marriage?”.


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## Chris Taylor (Jul 22, 2010)

AFEH said:


> I wonder have you ever had to deal with a passive aggressive?
> 
> If you were observing a husband and wife but couldn’t hear what they were saying to one another, but then one of them starts getting angry, intense and maybe even raises their voice it’s exceedingly natural to assume that they are the aggressor.
> 
> ...


I have to disagree with the part that "most certainly she's not being heard".

Yes, he's a professional debater and that could be a problem. I negotiate contracts for a living. When I discuss contracts, I point to phrases, clauses, etc... that say a certain thing or may be contradictory.

When I would argue with my wife, I could circle around her arguments and point out where she was being contradictory and she'd be pissed. At that point, knowing she couldn't win a civil, logical argument she's go off with insults and anger.

He may be producing the same results. Winning the argument but losing the war.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

I actually get along very well with my FIL. To some extent we are very much alike in that we are both Alphas. The problems arise when he and I want to eat at different restaurants. I simply need to just go with the flow on that issue. Regarding Korean culture, I could probably write a doctoral thesis based on the volume of material I have read. To stereotype, Korean marriages appear to have lots of conflict and avoidance issues. Korean men often stay out drinking with business associates often, which can lead to other bad behavior. It's also common for kids to share the parental bed and for marriage to become largely sexless until the kids reach a significant age. The culture is also very hierarchical, based on age, wealth and education. 

As far as conflict resolution, I think to emulate my in-laws at their most functional, during this stage in life I should focus very hard at work, not be concerned about intimacy and do my own thing. My wife has often talked about her Dad always taking the family on weekend trips of his choosing. She seems the happiest when I do that, which I do.

Again, the problems generally only arise when I make my wishes known about intimacy or in any way try to divide blame when the occasional disagreement occurs.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Chris Taylor said:


> I have to disagree with the part that "most certainly she's not being heard".
> 
> Yes, he's a professional debater and that could be a problem. I negotiate contracts for a living. When I discuss contracts, I point to phrases, clauses, etc... that say a certain thing or may be contradictory.
> 
> ...


It’s not about winning and if you are setting out to win, you will most certainly lose. Most especially with a wife! She will not let you “win” under those circumstances. Rather she will make you pay very big penalties!

It is about being a consultative leader. About gathering all the inputs, all the needs and taking everything into account. It is about being the head of the family, the man with empathy, love and compassion in his heart. It is about being patient and tolerant, about compromise and sometimes sacrifice. That’s how you get as much good food as you could ever want and as much good sex as you could ever dream of!


Do you really believe your wife thinks she’s being heard when you are “debating” with her? You probably miss 80% of what she’s communicating to you because you are so utterly focused on the words she speaks! And that’s probably why she gets so very angry because you do not listen to her.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

AFEH said:


> It’s not about winning and if you are setting out to win, you will most certainly lose. Most especially with a wife! She will not let you “win” under those circumstances. Rather she will make you pay very big penalties!
> 
> It is about being a consultative leader. About gathering all the inputs, all the needs and taking everything into account. It is about being the head of the family, the man with empathy, love and compassion in his heart. It is about being patient and tolerant, about compromise and sometimes sacrifice. That’s how you get as much good food as you could ever want and as much good sex as you could ever dream of!
> 
> ...


I totally get the "don't debate with your wife" issue. I have worked really hard through MC to do stop doing this. I have largely succeeded. I also try to actively listen and let her do 90% of the talking. I actually went on the ADHD meds in large part to help with this. They help me focus on what she is saying and control the impulse to interrupt her to address a point I disagree with. Our MC has told her that men have difficulty following long critical discussions and she needs to make her point in fewer words. The problem is when she gets upset, she just keeps going...

Things have been pretty good the last few days. I now know she was PMSing on Thursday when we had the last big blow up. 

For now, the game plan is (1) be genuinely nice, respectful and engaged at all times with her family; (2) not look to her actions as a requirement for my happiness; (3) engage with her and the kids in a constructive, non-critical manner; (4) listen to her and demonstrate verbally in a non-critical and non-debating way that I heard her and empathize; and (5) consider going on a business trip whenever she is PMSing (the last one was a joke


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> I totally get the "don't debate with your wife" argument. I have worked really hard through MC to do stop doing this. I have largely succeeded. I also try to actively listen and let her do 90% of the talking. I actually went on the ADHD meds in large part to help with this. *They help me focus on what she is saying and control the impulse to interrupt her to address a point I disagree with.* Our MC has told her that men have difficulty following long critical discussions and she needs to make her point in fewer words. The problem is when she gets upset, she just keeps going...
> 
> Things have been pretty good the last few days. I now know she was PMSing on Thursday when we had the last big blow up.
> 
> For now, the game plan is (1) be genuinely nice, respectful and engaged at all times with her family; (2) not look to her actions as a requirement for my happiness; (3) engage with her and the kids in a constructive, non-critical manner; (4) listen to her and demonstrate verbally in a non-critical and non-debating way that I heard her and empathize; and (5) consider going on a business trip whenever she is PMSing (the last one was a joke


I think that is one of the most difficult things in the world for a high testosterone male to do. For the masculine man.

It does your head in and you're be in great danger of breaking a jaw trying to stifle a yawn. And then blow me you’ve managed to keep two of the things she’s said active in your head and she comes out with a third one and pumph all three are blown away in the wind never to be recalled again now matter how hard you try. Whatever you do, don’t write anything down as she will think you’re “gathering evidence”.

They are not at the table to debate. They are not at the table to “find solutions”. They are not at the table to “work together”. Rather they are at the table to “dump” and just like a good crap it does them the world of good.

But it seems such a feminine thing for a man to do and you wonder if you’re going to lose your nuts or become emasculated. Well you don’t. But you do, if things go right, enjoy some of the best sex you’ve ever had.

And low and behold because your wife has been exceedingly emotionally intimate with you, you are now in an emotional affair with her. You are her best friend, her buddy, her confident.


You now know the most fundamental differences in how men and women communicate!

That Awareness book will help you greatly in these times. 


Also visit Pease International - Body Language | Relationship Advice. Eighty percent of what we communicate is via body language and behaviour. I find it a fascinating subject and the lessons learned can be used in business as well as in the home and elsewhere,


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

Dadof3greatkids said:


> For now, the game plan is (1) be genuinely nice, respectful and engaged at all times with her family; (2) not look to her actions as a requirement for my happiness; (3) engage with her and the kids in a constructive, non-critical manner; (4) listen to her and demonstrate verbally in a non-critical and non-debating way that I heard her and empathize; and (5) consider going on a business trip whenever she is PMSing (the last one was a joke


I like your plan. Especially with her family. My wife was immensely tied to her father, she loved him to bits. Fortunately he was a very good guy and we got on well and she could see that. There are many ways to a wife’s heart and one of them is most certainly her family. Sometimes it’s almost like “Love me love my family. We come as a package”. I think this no more true of the Asian cultures.

And of course the opposite is true. Criticise my family, you criticise me.



Understand your joke but at PMS time just duck and go about your business. I guarantee she WILL notice. And hopefully she'll start to tone it down by herself.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

When a wife is speaking in her monologue I think it’s a wise man who pays attention and listens without judging. Difficult thing to do when “under attack” and the emotions are being seriously tweaked. But its that ego that’s being hurt by your wife so its best to get away from the ego and just observe it in action.

I think perhaps the very worse thing to do at these times is to go into a debate. Most especially an emotionless debate. I actually believe if anything it’s far better to show your emotions because there’s a great danger of being viewed as “cold, heartless and uncaring” and totally without empathy or compassion.

But there’s more to it than that. The last thing you could ever want is your wife talking of her problems concerning you, her marriage etc. with another man. Because this is the way emotional affairs begin, how they start. “He’s easy to talk to”. What! She’s talking to another man, an OM. I didn’t even know that, why doesn’t she talk to me about her problems!

So be the OM, be the Other Man in your wife’s life, in your marriage. Be the man that’s easy to talk to, not one she cringes even at the thought of expressing her problems to you because she knows well it’ll be a debate about “winning”.


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## Dadof3greatkids (Jul 23, 2012)

After some serious drama between my wife and daughter yesterday, my wife completely lost it and spiraled into a huge depression.

Invited her Dad out to dinner (without my wife knowing). I gave him a rough sketch on the phone this morning of our history and how it is now having a dramatic effect on my wife's relationship with our oldest daughter. He acknowledged my wife has huge anger issues and told me about some things I did not know. He also seemed to empathize given his relationship with his wife. He told me I should have called him earlier.

We are having dinner together tonight. My wife would completely freak out if she knew I was doing this, but my reading Awareness and looking at myself can only get me so far. Now that the major issues are being transplanted from us to my wife's relationship with the kids, I need reinforcements and advice.

I am sure this will all come back to bite me on the a$$, but I am find it difficult to just sit here and let my family fall apart while my wife suffers in depression, which manifests itself often as anger, and does nothing about it.


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## AFEH (May 18, 2010)

What you are doing is hundreds of times better than avoiding the issues, burying them and rug sweeping. You are asserting yourself as the head of the family with everyone’s issues and feelings at heart and looking for solutions. It doesn’t get much better than that. If the proverbial does hit the fan then I feel certain you’ll be able to handle that as well.

If she does find out, be a TRULY good listener with your wife.


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