# wife vacationing with girlfriend



## nogoer

About 6 months ago my wife was asked by a friend if she would like take her husbands place on a Sicilian vacation coming up in sept. Most of the trip was already paid for, she just needed to cover air fare and incidentals(food,booze,etc). We already had a vacation paid for and planned for the family at this time(for july 4th week) so money was a challenge in spite of the low costs. Initially i was against it but after thinking i thought i was being selfish and changed my mind about her going. We have 2 kids (21, 13) a dog, etc and a life that needs to be kept running, but it isnt hard per se. Weve been married 15 yrs this month and ive never had any reason to suspect any infidelity and as far as i know and she's told me our relationship is great. Separate vacations have NEVER been our thing though, which was the reason on my hesitation. Yeah shes taken an occasional girls weekend or mother/daughters overnight but nothing like a week and nothing even close to an exciting trip like italy.

Fast forward 6 months to now and in spite of a couple minor tiffs along the way we had an understanding that she did it on her own and i'd find a way to cope while she was gone. I didnt really care to hear the details that would rub it in that she was going and i wasnt, not that she was trying to do that in any way. It was part of my attempted coping mechanism, out of sight out of mind.

My coping didnt last very long. This is what im really posting about. The friend shes with is her soundboard, shes mine, shes gone, im here now looking for advice. She left friday night, by sunday morning i was feeling slighted, cheated and angry and theres still 6 days to go. I kept it all in for 6 months because i love her dearly like she does me and the last thing i wanted to do was guilt her out of missing something great. Basically i was waiting and hoping she would think deeply about my side and opt not to go and maybe discuss us doing it together somehow another time. She didnt do that and i ended up at a point where i had to say something to get it off my chest or it seriously could be the beginning of the end over something stupid. 

We've now been talking via chats for the last day or so. She says she now understands my side and wishes i had been more honest beforehand. Ive tried to explain to her the only good way out for both of us was if she came to this realization herself. My problem now is i just cant get over this ominous feeling like its just not fair that we both work hard, and we both contribute 100%, and im stuck here dealing with life while shes over there having fun without me. Not talking to her gives me time to steam and even though im pretty sure i ruined her vacation(not my intent, but better that than our marriage) i just get angry that she never really considered how i would feel about having her gone for a week and doing something we could be sharing together. My fear right now is that i wont be able to let this go or the opposite that im being petty, needy, and a jerk and she'll hold that against me. Our talks i believe are genuine in that she really feels bad now that she didnt think about this part, but it doesnt take away from the fact she felt i didnt care that she went off like this. She has offered to cut the trip short, but my crap has been aired out and her coming back early doesnt really do anything but give her a point of future resentment.

Am i out of line for feeling its unfair? Im hoping, and it should be likely that once shes home its no harm no foul and life moves on. I certainly am not willing to toss out 15yrs of marriage over it, but its just killing me that it appears she never really cared enough to consider my point of view.


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## SentHereForAReason

Can you clarify something for me? When did you voice your frustrations, like right before she left or while she was there?


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## nogoer

I didnt speak up in the strict sense of the word prior. I also didnt express excitement for her and tell her how i was happy for her. One night, when she should have taken the hint me and my youngest daughter got upset when she starting going into details about what they wanted to do and where. My wife got mad, we got miffed and thats when we agreed keep those details to yourself because it makes us feel bad. The real venting was yesterday morning.


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## Akfranklin2014

You really should let this go. If it was that important for you to go, you would have said something to her about you going too. Or you can plan a trip to Italy for just the two of you at a later time. This is a girl's trip now. Everyone deserves time to themselves. If you cannot survive a week without that is something you need to discuss. But don't ruin her vacation over it. And trust me, if you've ruined her vacation or she comes back early, you will hear about it. "No harm no foul" won't be in her vocabulary.


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## nogoer

Akfranklin2014 said:


> You really should let this go. If it was that important for you to go, you would have said something to her about you going too. Or you can plan a trip to Italy for just the two of you at a later time. This is a girl's trip now. Everyone deserves time to themselves. If you cannot survive a week without that is something you need to discuss. But don't ruin her vacation over it. And trust me, if you've ruined her vacation or she comes back early, you will hear about it. "No harm no foul" won't be in her vocabulary.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Feels a bit harsh but ok. 

It wasnt about me going, we couldnt afford that especially since we just came off a vacation last july. Neither of us had the time left and im not sure her bosses are paying for her time either. She isnt going to to tell me about how i ruined it either, thats not her style. Shes known since day 1 this was asking for alot extra and i guess me not voicing my honest opinion was taken as i dont have a problem.


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## x598

unfair? really? what is this kindergarten? 

Sorry, but life ISINT FAIR. 

You should be happy your wife got to go to something like this for minimal expense......instead of pouting like a school child who didn't get their "fair share".

If the shoe was on the other foot ( I don't know what you like to do) but say maybe an opportunity to go to an exotic location fishing or whatever it is you do with your buddies, would she have thrown a tantrum or been happy for you?

instead of playing the poor victim and dragging her trip down, putt your big boy pants on and be excited and happy for her.


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## Akfranklin2014

nogoer said:


> Feels a bit harsh but ok.
> 
> 
> 
> It wasnt about me going, we couldnt afford that especially since we just came off a vacation last july. Neither of us had the time left and im not sure her bosses are paying for her time either. She isnt going to to tell me about how i ruined it either, thats not her style. Shes known since day 1 this was asking for alot extra and i guess me not voicing my honest opinion was taken as i dont have a problem.




There is no way this wasn't about you not going. You said yourself you and your daughter got upset when she told you all the things she was going to do. Also, it is asking a lot extra for her to be able to go on a vacation with a girlfriend? I know airfare to Italy and back is expensive, but if you didn't voice your true opinion before she went then you really do not have anything to say about it now.


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## brooklynAnn

How long is your wife gone for? 2 weeks? 1 month? 6 weeks? 6 months?'

Let the girl enjoy her little vacation and next time speak up when something start bothering you instead of waiting for the cows to come home for the other party to gain realization. 

I would be pissed if i have to cut short my trip because my H has guity me into coming home. That's wasting money since, you have worries about that.

My H goes on boys trip once a year from 1 to 2 weeks, depending on what they are doing. Thats my time for me. I can watch as much tv, read and eat what I want. The kids and I can order out, I don't have to clean the house. I can sleep on the entire bed. 

The thing is this can be the time for you to enjoy being with yourself and your kids. Cook hotdogs all week long and don't have to listen to your wife. 

Instead now you sound all clingy and need mothering because you miss her and you have to deal with life while she is having fun. Instead you could be an great H by being happy that your wife is out having some fun and enjoying a beautiful country like Italy. 

Go do something with yourself and or with the kids.


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## Theseus

nogoer said:


> Am i out of line for feeling its unfair? Im hoping, and it should be likely that once shes home its no harm no foul and life moves on. I certainly am not willing to toss out 15yrs of marriage over it, but its just killing me that it appears she never really cared enough to consider my point of view.


It's not entirely fair, but life throws curve balls. I can understand your frustration. But I can also sympathize with your wife's friend's situation, and how she didn't want to just lose all the money she saved for a vacation. But sometimes those curve balls will bend your way too, and your wife will think that's "unfair". Let me ask you this. How would your wife react if a male friend of yours had a spouse cancel on a Vegas vacation, and he invited you along to enjoy it with him? Would she be angry and hurt?

Assuming you don't suspect her of cheating, ruining her vacation with your complaints is just burning bridges and isn't helping anyone. I would have spoken my mind before she left, and after she came back, but not during the trip. 

My advice: Get out and do something for yourself, or buy something for yourself. Do something you have been waiting to do. Trade in your car and get one that you like. Get that motorcycle that she would never let you get. Whatever, as long as its not too extreme. It will really take the edge off.


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## SentHereForAReason

nogoer said:


> I didnt speak up in the strict sense of the word prior. I also didnt express excitement for her and tell her how i was happy for her. One night, when she should have taken the hint me and my youngest daughter got upset when she starting going into details about what they wanted to do and where. My wife got mad, we got miffed and thats when we agreed keep those details to yourself because it makes us feel bad. The real venting was yesterday morning.


I don't think I have enough information to make an absolute recommendation on what this vacation really means, whether a slight or a non-factor but if I were you dude, I would seriously do some damage control right now. I would apologize, tell her you want her to have fun and you can talk when she gets back about stuff between you guys. This has the potential to create some serious resentment on her side and if you can let it go, make her see you want her to enjoy this, it could go the other way and create some appreciation for you. My recommendation is to craft a genuine apology and then make sure she knows you want her to enjoy herself.


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## 23cm

brooklynAnn said:


> How long is your wife gone for? 2 weeks? 1 month? 6 weeks? 6 months?'
> 
> Let the girl enjoy her little vacation and next time speak up when something start bothering you instead of waiting for the cows to come home for the other party to gain realization.
> 
> I would be pissed if i have to cut short my trip because my H has guity me into coming home. That's wasting money since, you have worries about that.
> 
> My H goes on boys trip once a year from 1 to 2 weeks, depending on what they are doing. Thats my time for me. I can watch as much tv, read and eat what I want. The kids and I can order out, I don't have to clean the house. I can sleep on the entire bed.
> 
> The thing is this can be the time for you to enjoy being with yourself and your kids. Cook hotdogs all week long and don't have to listen to your wife.
> 
> Instead now you sound all clingy and need mothering because you miss her and you have to deal with life while she is having fun. Instead you could be an great H by being happy that your wife is out having some fun and enjoying a beautiful country like Italy.
> 
> Go do something with yourself and or with the kids.


THIS!

Geez buddy. Turn in your damned Man Card if you can't get along without the Better Half for a week.


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## personofinterest

> when she should have taken the hint


Um....no

If you want her to know something, you say it directly. Hints are for passive aggressive people and conflict avoidant people.

If you chose not to be clear, that is 100% on your. Period.


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## happyhusband0005

I think you're in the wrong here. She took advantage of a low cost trip to Italy for 1 week. I think you need to look into why you feel so badly about this, I don't think it's normal that you've been so passive aggressive over the past 6 months and then drop the problems on her when she was trying to enjoy the trip which either now she won't enjoy or she is going to enjoy it even more to spite you. If I was her I would be pissed. But I think missing someone is obviously fine and normal but being mad because she's having fun without you seems an unhealthy sign.


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## Rowan

The worst possible way for humans to communicate is via telepathy. 

OP, you didn't actually voice your concerns to your wife in a mature, forthright manner. You wanted her to guess how you felt and behave how you wanted her to, without having to actually be honest yourself about your own thoughts, feelings and wants. That's asking her to mind-read. And it's a really poor way to make your feelings known or have your wishes/needs respected. You're upset your wife didn't consider your point of view, but you also seem to be telling us that you never told her your point of view. She was just supposed to know. Why? Because if she really loved you, she would have? 

Stop being passive-aggressive. Stop expecting people to read your mind. Stop expecting things from people if you cannot be honest about what you want. Learn to communicate in a mature manner with your spouse. And stop trying to ruin your wife's vacation. Or, at least stop sounding a bit gleeful that you perhaps already have. Surely, as a functional adult male, you are capable of manning the fort at home while your wife is away for one week? 

Oh, and in addition to some major work on mature communication (likely with a good MC), you two may also need to figure out why there appears to be so much resentment in your marriage. You seem concerned about giving your wife ammunition against you and that she might have a point of resentment against you in the future. You seem to be viewing, and likely interact with, your wife as an adversary you have to guard against. Why is that? Does she view you in the same adversarial light?


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## Ragnar Ragnasson

Once she's on the vacation it's a done deal. Can't be giving her negativity. Now that it's done it's done. Man up, never ask her more than if she had a good time, tell her you're glad.

Tell her once you're glad she's home. Don't tell her anymore about your time without her except no worries all went well.

Carry on


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## nogoer

SentHereForAReason said:


> I don't think I have enough information to make an absolute recommendation on what this vacation really means, whether a slight or a non-factor but if I were you dude, I would seriously do some damage control right now. I would apologize, tell her you want her to have fun and you can talk when she gets back about stuff between you guys. This has the potential to create some serious resentment on her side and if you can let it go, make her see you want her to enjoy this, it could go the other way and create some appreciation for you. My recommendation is to craft a genuine apology and then make sure she knows you want her to enjoy herself.


Youre right on the apology and the information. My next step is to do the apology. The information, this is new for us like really new. Until now i thought she would never want to ask something like this of me. I know i would not of her and both of us try very hard to make sure we both share the load and give what eachother needs to the other. I guess it took me by surprise.


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## manfromlamancha

Just to confirm that I understand this correctly:



You and your wife had just had a holiday together which cost a bit and you both work hard to make ends meet (so money is fairly tight).


You both would have liked to have gone to Sicily on holiday (which, by the way is not the same as going to other parts of Italy) but could not afford to do it this year.


She got an offer from a friend to take the friend's husband's place (effectively making it a girls trip) but still at some cost and using money neither of you could really afford.


You get upset because you don't like the decision but did not say anything about it hoping that she would be mature enough to understand that it was not a good decision (good for her friend maybe but not for your family).


OK if that is correct, here are my thoughts:



The way you feel is very understandable.


I am sure many will tell you what I am about to say: you really should have put your foot down at the time in stead of stewing on it and then erupting now. You would need to explain that it was not so much about not wanting her to go (although you would have preferred to have gone to such a nice location with her which again is understandable), but simply that it would put an unnecessary strain on your finances. So two damn good reasons for her not to go.


I would not ruin her trip any more than you have done (and believe me, I understand why you did it). In stead, I would now take the higher ground and support her in having as good a time as possible and even ask her to find out about things to do for the two of you when you both go back there or even as a family. However, have an honest (and loving) discussion with her about how it made you feel - do this without confrontation but with clarity and openness. She should understand. Then ask her to tell you all about the trip etc.



Take care and hope that this becomes a learning and growing experience for the two of you.


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## personofinterest

manfromlamancha said:


> Just to confirm that I understand this correctly:
> 
> 
> 
> You and your wife had just had a holiday together which cost a bit and you both work hard to make ends meet (so money is fairly tight).
> 
> 
> You both would have liked to have gone to Sicily on holiday (which, by the way is not the same as going to other parts of Italy) but could not afford to do it this year.
> 
> 
> She got an offer from a friend to take the friend's husband's place (effectively making it a girls trip) but still at some cost and using money neither of you could really afford.
> 
> 
> You get upset because you don't like the decision but did not say anything about it hoping that she would be mature enough to understand that it was not a good decision (good for her friend maybe but not for your family).
> 
> 
> OK if that is correct, here are my thoughts:
> 
> 
> 
> The way you feel is very understandable.
> 
> 
> I am sure many will tell you what I am about to say: you really should have put your foot down at the time in stead of stewing on it and then erupting now. You would need to explain that it was not so much about not wanting her to go (although you would have preferred to have gone to such a nice location with her which again is understandable), but simply that it would put an unnecessary strain on your finances. So two damn good reasons for her not to go.
> 
> 
> I would not ruin her trip any more than you have done (and believe me, I understand why you did it). In stead, I would now take the higher ground and support her in having as good a time as possible and even ask her to find out about things to do for the two of you when you both go back there or even as a family. However, have an honest (and loving) discussion with her about how it made you feel - do this without confrontation but with clarity and openness. She should understand. Then ask her to tell you all about the trip etc.
> 
> 
> 
> Take care and hope that this becomes a learning and growing experience for the two of you.


I really think this is not about money. He just didn't want her to go. He didn't want to have to do everything at home. He is passive aggressive by nature, and this time it didn't work. My former father in law was just like this.


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## Andy1001

personofinterest said:


> Um....no
> 
> If you want her to know something, you say it directly. Hints are for passive aggressive people and conflict avoidant people.
> 
> If you chose not to be clear, that is 100% on your. Period.


This^^^^^
A poster on tam told me once that she doesn’t speak “Hintese” to her husband,she tells him exactly what she means.
Best bit of advice I have ever read on tam.


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## Openminded

Your time to speak up was when this first surfaced. You didn't. Consider it a lesson learned and let it go.


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## nogoer

Rowan said:


> Oh, and in addition to some major work on mature communication (likely with a good MC), you two may also need to figure out why there appears to be so much resentment in your marriage. You seem concerned about giving your wife ammunition against you and that she might have a point of resentment against you in the future. You seem to be viewing, and likely interact with, your wife as an adversary you have to guard against. Why is that? Does she view you in the same adversarial light?


There isnt resentment and we arent adverserial. That all came out wrong i guess. My concern was doing something to result in resentment which is the last thing i want to get a foothold in our marriage. I need to let this go, you are all right. I need to figure out why i thought i was good with it and then it all went south for me and why i have feelings like this. I miss her, we almost never spend time apart except when she has a girls thing. Im not a social person and i enjoy being home with my family so doing this sort of thing doesnt really cross my mind. When i want to get away and decompress i like my wife there too. I guess im just hurt she chose to have this experience without me and now i laid that onus on her.

I apologized before this and am going to try to do what i can to help her enjoy the remaining time. Thank you


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## happyhusband0005

nogoer said:


> There isnt resentment and we arent adverserial. That all came out wrong i guess. My concern was doing something to result in resentment which is the last thing i want to get a foothold in our marriage. I need to let this go, you are all right. I need to figure out why i thought i was good with it and then it all went south for me and why i have feelings like this. I miss her, we almost never spend time apart except when she has a girls thing. Im not a social person and i enjoy being home with my family so doing this sort of thing doesnt really cross my mind. When i want to get away and decompress i like my wife there too. I guess im just hurt she chose to have this experience without me and now i laid that onus on her.
> 
> I apologized before this and am going to try to do what i can to help her enjoy the remaining time. Thank you


First good on you for realizing you didn't handle this right. But don't worry about helping her enjoy it, she can handle that on her own. Just make sure she knows your fine and wanting her to enjoy herself. Then let her enjoy herself and don't make her feel the need to call you everyday or anything, just enjoy.


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## MarriedTex

The horse is out of the proverbial barn on this one. Totally unfair of you to lay down the guilt trip long after the decision for the trip has been made. Honest discussion needed upfront when opportunity arose and was approved. 

All you're doing now is wasting money. If you use a guilt trip to ruin her travel, you will have spent money on a vacation for her that is not relaxing for her (and hence not achieving the desired result.) Hopefully, you will get your own opportunities to pursue some of your preferred options down the road. Until then, you're not doing yourself any favors by penalizing wife for not being a mind reader. 

If I were you, I'd backtrack, apologize and blame your outburst on just being tired. Emphasize that you're better now and that you hope she has a great trip. You successfully have taken a pitcher of lemonade and turned it into a bunch of sour old lemons. (Here's a hint: People with passive aggressive spouses wind up hating their spouses. If you want to continue on a path for poisoning your marital relationship and your wife's feelings for you, carry on. You've gotten yourself off to a great start!)


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## sunsetmist

You sound like you appreciate and are learning from prior advice.

I'm wondering if you may be afraid that this is the beginning of a 'new norm' in your marriage? You don't want change.

Say what you mean and mean what you say---but do SAY it. Discuss it.

You say you love her--love means sacrifice along with about a million other things. Share her joy don't damper it.

Sounds like y'all have a good foundation on which to continue building.


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## nogoer

personofinterest said:


> I really think this is not about money. He just didn't want her to go. He didn't want to have to do everything at home. He is passive aggressive by nature, and this time it didn't work. My former father in law was just like this.


It wasnt about not wanting her to go. If that were the case i could have just kept my mouth shut the day she got the call and she would have said no. Instead i said yes wanting her to ahve these chances, but now feeling bad for myself that i couldnt share it with her and that she chose to go in spite of that.

We arent poor but we arent wealthy either. We take one big vacation a year and then a couple long weeknds sometimes. The money that it cost for airfare set us back a month because we just depleted our savings for our last trip and it was time to start banking for winter expenses.

I take severe insult at accusations of not wanting to do everything at home. Its out of line to just start throwing things like that around. Im perfectly capable of getting the kid on the bus and doing the laundry and i already do all the cooking. Other minor things like the lawn can sit for a week.

the only thing you were even close to is me ebing passive agressive. However in the case of this i didnt want to disappoint her by saying no and didnt want to feel selfish for telling her not to because of a few hundred we tech could afford and my hurt feelings.


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## manfromlamancha

personofinterest said:


> I really think this is not about money. He just didn't want her to go. He didn't want to have to do everything at home. He is passive aggressive by nature, and this time it didn't work. My former father in law was just like this.


I do not agree with this at all. He laid it out very clearly in his original post:




nogoer said:


> About 6 months ago my wife was asked by a friend if she would like take her husbands place on a Sicilian vacation coming up in sept. Most of the trip was already paid for, she just needed to cover air fare and incidentals(food,booze,etc). *We already had a vacation paid for and planned for the family at this time(for july 4th week) so money was a challenge in spite of the low costs.* Initially i was against it but after thinking i thought i was being selfish and changed my mind about her going. *We have 2 kids (21, 13) a dog, etc and a life that needs to be kept running, but it isnt hard per se.* Weve been married 15 yrs this month and ive never had any reason to suspect any infidelity and as far as i know and she's told me our relationship is great. *Separate vacations have NEVER been our thing though, which was the reason on my hesitation. Yeah shes taken an occasional girls weekend or mother/daughters overnight but nothing like a week and nothing even close to an exciting trip like italy.*
> 
> Fast forward 6 months to now and in spite of a couple minor tiffs along the way we had an understanding that she did it on her own and i'd find a way to cope while she was gone. I didnt really care to hear the details that would rub it in that she was going and i wasnt, not that she was trying to do that in any way. It was part of my attempted coping mechanism, out of sight out of mind.
> 
> My coping didnt last very long. This is what im really posting about. The friend shes with is her soundboard, shes mine, shes gone, im here now looking for advice. She left friday night, by sunday morning i was feeling slighted, cheated and angry and theres still 6 days to go. I kept it all in for 6 months because i love her dearly like she does me and the last thing i wanted to do was guilt her out of missing something great. *Basically i was waiting and hoping she would think deeply about my side and opt not to go and maybe discuss us doing it together somehow another time. She didnt do that and i ended up at a point where i had to say something to get it off my chest *or it seriously could be the beginning of the end over something stupid.
> 
> We've now been talking via chats for the last day or so. She says she now understands my side and wishes i had been more honest beforehand. Ive tried to explain to her the only good way out for both of us was if she came to this realization herself. My problem now is i just cant get over this ominous feeling like its just not fair that we both work hard, and we both contribute 100%, and im stuck here dealing with life while shes over there having fun without me. Not talking to her gives me time to steam and even though im pretty sure i ruined her vacation(not my intent, but better that than our marriage) i just get angry that she never really considered how i would feel about having her gone for a week and doing something we could be sharing together. My fear right now is that i wont be able to let this go or the opposite that im being petty, needy, and a jerk and she'll hold that against me. Our talks i believe are genuine in that she really feels bad now that she didnt think about this part, but it doesnt take away from the fact she felt i didnt care that she went off like this. She has offered to cut the trip short, but my crap has been aired out and her coming back early doesnt really do anything but give her a point of future resentment.
> 
> Am i out of line for feeling its unfair? Im hoping, and it should be likely that once shes home its no harm no foul and life moves on. I certainly am not willing to toss out 15yrs of marriage over it, but its just killing me that it appears she never really cared enough to consider my point of view.


I agree that he did not want her to go ..... without him. He does want her to go on vacation to somewhere exciting like Sicily .... with him!

And I understand this. This was not a girls night out or something like that. This is the sort of thing you do with your spouse or family. Now if it was completely free, then maybe it would be a question of being too good an opportunity. But it was not that. I think he has been quite magnanimous about it but has poor coping skills.

I still stand by my advice and I believe he has come to the same conclusion on his own.


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## Yeswecan

You kind of baited and switched. Sorry but you should have wished your W a great time, send pictures via FB or whatever. Bring back a trinket for you. Sheesh....


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## MyRevelation

Ragnar Ragnasson said:


> Once she's on the vacation it's a done deal. Can't be giving her negativity. Now that it's done it's done. Man up, never ask her more than if she had a good time, tell her you're glad.
> 
> Tell her once you're glad she's home. Don't tell her anymore about your time without her except no worries all went well.
> 
> Carry on


I gotta agree with the above. Shut up at this point, endure the rest of the week, and don't make a big deal about it further, including her return. 

You missed your window of opportunity ... which BTW you shouldn't have done. I originally found infidelity/marriage forums as a direct result of a girls only vacation out of the country, and I can damn well guarantee I'll never make that mistake again. So, like me, learn from this mistake and don't let it happen again ... speak your mind and head off future girls only vacations before they take root.


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## Rowan

nogoer said:


> There isnt resentment and we arent adverserial. That all came out wrong i guess. My concern was doing something to result in resentment which is the last thing i want to get a foothold in our marriage. I need to let this go, you are all right. I need to figure out why i thought i was good with it and then it all went south for me and why i have feelings like this. I miss her, we almost never spend time apart except when she has a girls thing. Im not a social person and i enjoy being home with my family so doing this sort of thing doesnt really cross my mind. When i want to get away and decompress i like my wife there too. I guess im just hurt she chose to have this experience without me and now i laid that onus on her.
> 
> I apologized before this and am going to try to do what i can to help her enjoy the remaining time. Thank you



OP, it's just unhealthy for anyone to be entirely reliant on a single person for all their social needs. It might be time for you to invest a bit of time in cultivating outside friendships or hobbies, and also perhaps learn to cultivate a bit more self-reliance. While closeness and time together is important, it's actually a bit unfair to make your spouse your only source of emotional support and socialization. It can actually be a bit burdensome to a partner to make them the sole source of all of your emotional and social needs. 

Also, it's important to keep in mind that as much as your spouse may love you and as close as the two of you may be, you are not actually the same individual. It really makes little sense to assume that your wife should always know how you feel and what you want just because you do. She is a separate person from you, with an identity, thoughts, feelings, and needs of her very own. Which is why healthy and effective communication is so important. She doesn't always feel the same way you do, or think the same way you do about things, because she is not you. And that is perfectly healthy and normal.


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## nogoer

sunsetmist said:


> You sound like you appreciate and are learning from prior advice.
> 
> I'm wondering if you may be afraid that this is the beginning of a 'new norm' in your marriage? You don't want change.
> 
> Say what you mean and mean what you say---but do SAY it. Discuss it.
> 
> You say you love her--love means sacrifice along with about a million other things. Share her joy don't damper it.
> 
> Sounds like y'all have a good foundation on which to continue building.


I live on the internet and know how dark it can turn from lack of information, but these responses have surprised me at how insightful many of you are.

Yes now that you mention it im very worried this becomes an annual thing. Its not that im change averse, its i dont understand what would motivate a spouse in a happy marriage to want to always have fantastic experiences without the family and at the families expense. These things cost money and time that would ahve to come from somewhere and in our family its already allotted to other things.

Im pretty sure she underestimated how she would feel being away form us all on something like this and probably not try to arrange it again. However the week is still young and its an exciting place with friends and goodtimes thats going to leave a lasting impression.


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## sunsetmist

nogoer said:


> I live on the internet and know how dark it can turn from lack of information, but these responses have surprised me at how insightful many of you are.
> 
> Yes now that you mention it im very worried this becomes an annual thing. Its not that im change averse, its i dont understand what would motivate a spouse in a happy marriage to want to always have fantastic experiences without the family and at the families expense. These things cost money and time that would ahve to come from somewhere and in our family its already allotted to other things.
> 
> Im pretty sure she underestimated how she would feel being away form us all on something like this and probably not try to arrange it again. However the week is still young and its an exciting place with friends and goodtimes thats going to leave a lasting impression.


I hope the time and money involved are at the bottom of the frustration list and can be managed.

Somehow your posts project a feeling of insecurity. A mom away from her family misses them, but enjoys a sense of freedom from responsibility that is energizing and uplifting--at the same time not diminishing her love for and dedication to them.


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## Rowan

nogoer said:


> I live on the internet and know how dark it can turn from lack of information, but these responses have surprised me at how insightful many of you are.
> 
> *Yes now that you mention it im very worried this becomes an annual thing. Its not that im change averse, its i dont understand what would motivate a spouse in a happy marriage to want to always have fantastic experiences without the family and at the families expense. These things cost money and time that would ahve to come from somewhere and in our family its already allotted to other things.
> *
> Im pretty sure she underestimated how she would feel being away form us all on something like this and probably not try to arrange it again. However the week is still young and its an exciting place with friends and goodtimes thats going to leave a lasting impression.



You said you don't understand what would motivate a happy spouse to "always want to have fantastic experiences without the family." Does your wife "always" want to do that? Or is this your anxiety talking? Because you haven't indicated that this is a common occurrence within your marriage. In fact, you've given the impression that this is a first for your marriage. So, what is causing you to equate this one-off event with something that happens all the time? Because, rationally, you must know that this doesn't happen all the time in your marriage. 

I think you're becoming very reactive to a situation that has not materialized and likely will never materialize. This was not a planned girls trip. It was a one-off situation where your wife benefited from her friends' original plans falling through. You have already said that this unique situation is the only thing that made the trip affordable for your wife, so it's unlikely she'd be able to afford to go on such a trip again every year. No one - not your wife, not her friend, no one but you - seems to have any inclination that this is the start of an annual week-long thing. Besides all that, you would have ample opportunity to discuss any such future trips with your wife well in advance, and use your words this time to register your disagreement ahead of time. So, unless you think your wife would simply ignore your stated and rationally discussed wishes, there's no reason to think she'd be wiling to do this sort of trip again. You are allowing the "what ifs" to overtake your reason, and it's making you freak out about a potential situation with a low probability of actually coming to pass. 

Do you generally have anxiety issues? Do you not trust your wife? Is there something going on in your marriage - besides the previously cited abysmal communication skills, and an apparent tendency toward emotional over-reliance on your wife - that would lead you to truly imagine that this single incident has a _realistic_ chance at becoming a new norm?


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## SunCMars

I would be happy if my spouse got to do this once in a life time vacation.


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## UpsideDownWorld11

Dude, you sound like a little girl. If you didn't want her going, you should have said so- not waited till she was across the world and then piss all over her parade. Stop pouting. Speak up. And eat your beans, FFS.


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## nogoer

manfromlamancha said:


> I agree that he did not want her to go ..... without him. He does want her to go on vacation to somewhere exciting like Sicily .... with him!
> 
> And I understand this. This was not a girls night out or something like that. This is the sort of thing you do with your spouse or family. Now if it was completely free, then maybe it would be a question of being too good an opportunity. But it was not that. I think he has been quite magnanimous about it but has poor coping skills.
> 
> I still stand by my advice and I believe he has come to the same conclusion on his own.


I didnt say it but you did so thanks. this sort of trip really isnt a girls night kind of thing. Its a family or couples getaway and we have discussed sicily in the past as well as other foreign places for us to go. My grandmother is from sicily and i have family there, not that ive met though. We just never could justify the expense and have been putting it off for a later in life sort of escapade. Ireland being one we talk about frequently.

Many of you were so concise in your advice it hit home really quick. I was wrong in what i did, but it doesnt change how i feel or that i dont have some sort of ground to stand on. I should have said something in the beginning, i still dont know why i didnt. There are reasons she knew it probably wasnt the best idea, but i let them slide and perhaps she was blinded by the exciting idea of going away. I think there were lessons to be learned on both sides for us.


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## Akfranklin2014

You want her to experience things like this, but only with you? So, what is this was her only chance to experience this trip? Overseas trips are very expensive and the price rises with the number of people you bring. I understand you want to do things with her, but you can't limit her to only doing things with you or the family. THAT will most definitely cause resentment in the future.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hammond_B3

For what it’s worth, sounds like you are being selfish. I know, it takes one to know one. If I had not been so selfish, my wife and I would not be in the midst of a separation. Sounds like whether you meant to or not, you attempted to sabotage her trip by speaking up at the end. I suggest you back off and try to make up for it, which probably can’t be done.


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## nogoer

Akfranklin2014 said:


> You want her to experience things like this, but only with you? So, what is this was her only chance to experience this trip? Overseas trips are very expensive and the price rises with the number of people you bring. I understand you want to do things with her, but you can't limit her to only doing things with you or the family. THAT will most definitely cause resentment in the future.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I do not limit her to only doing things with me or the family. Shouldnt she want me to experience stuff like this too? Theres two sides to a marriage and its not fair to comment like only my wife deserves great things. You make me sound like a long lost puppy who needs to follow her around constantly dragging her down. Yes i miss her and yes this caught me off guard for how i felt about it. I dont make a habit of living life the way you seem to think i do.


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## 3Xnocharm

Openminded said:


> Your time to speak up was when this first surfaced. You didn't. Consider it a lesson learned and let it go.


Yep. Suck it up, buttercup. 

I think this is jealousy that she got the opportunity for such a wonderful trip and you weren't included. She does not sound untrustworthy, so whatever convoluted thoughts you came up with need to be reconciled with yourself and never thrown in her face. One fun trip doesn't mean she is going to be throwing your family away, if the tables were turned, would that be true for you? No?? Then stop making yourself miserable.


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## NobodySpecial

nogoer said:


> I do not limit her to only doing things with me or the family. Shouldnt she want me to experience stuff like this too? Theres two sides to a marriage and its not fair to comment like only my wife deserves great things. You make me sound like a long lost puppy who needs to follow her around constantly dragging her down. Yes i miss her and yes this caught me off guard for how i felt about it. I dont make a habit of living life the way you seem to think i do.


If you want to experience it, experience it. Marriage does not mean attached at the hip. You don't own what she "should" want.


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## nogoer

Hammond_B3 said:


> For what it’s worth, sounds like you are being selfish. I know, it takes one to know one. If I had not been so selfish, my wife and I would not be in the midst of a separation. Sounds like whether you meant to or not, you attempted to sabotage her trip by speaking up at the end. I suggest you back off and try to make up for it, which probably can’t be done.


Is not not a little selfish of her to want to take the trip in the first place? If people werent selfish noone would ever do or get anything they wanted.

This has been undone as much as it can, or so she says. The picture of the situation and my marriage is not fully fleshed out here and whether everyone believes it or not my wife knew she was being selfish in this situation. I told her i was ok with it which was my mistake when i wasnt and let her feel ok about being selfish. Then i made her feel guilty when i couldnt stand my decision anymore once she left. I apologized numerous times, wished her well and to have fun, told her to take pics and then tell me about it when she got home like i should have form the start.

I have no desire to follow suit and do this on my own. So im not sure how it will go down if it ever comes up again since i know and now she knows im not good with european girls weeks personally and financially. In fact, and keep your opinions on this to yourself im now feeling burned by the whole thing. Yeah its my fault and no she cant read minds but she knew it was touchy ground and easily could have assumed i wasnt ok even though i told her once i was. Even having voiced my opinion early still could have resulted in this, but with a much higher cost.

Maybe all of you that think this is super normal and everyone deserves exciting vacations alone or with friends only should take a step back and say hey, why is it i enjoy vacationing alone and or letting my spouse vacation alone. And a vacation like this cannot be confused with a guy taking a hunting trip or a woman going down to thier local coast for a beach weekend or a trip to visit out of state family. This trip is unique and absolutely something considered a family thing. Only the wealthy do this kind of thing normally.


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## nogoer

NobodySpecial said:


> If you want to experience it, experience it. Marriage does not mean attached at the hip. You don't own what she "should" want.


Ive dreamed for years of taking a working vacation to a ranch out northwest, i should go plan that and do that right now? what should i tell my wife, "you dont own" what i want and im allowed to take vacations from you and dont worry the money will come from somewhere, who cares if savings is depleted.

What reality do you people live in? She takes a trip that eats resources that now keep me from taking mine and vice versa. I mean seriously come on. 

She didnt take this trip because she wanted to go to sicily. She took it because her friend was going and there was an opening. Why dont we lighten up on me being such a horrible bad guy here like im forcibly trying to keep her from having any enjoyment in life.


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## sunsetmist

Now I see that Sicily has special family connections and meaning to you.

From this point forward, enjoy her pics and reports. (Let go of resentment--it will only hurt you). Be a warm and loving husband, because anything else is counter-productive to the marriage.

The above behavior will be a blessing to your marriage and you will likely feel happier because you have indeed given your wife a special gift.


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## Edo Edo

nogoer said:


> About 6 months ago my wife was asked by a friend if she would like take her husbands place on a Sicilian vacation coming up in sept. Most of the trip was already paid for, she just needed to cover air fare and incidentals(food,booze,etc). We already had a vacation paid for and planned for the family at this time(for july 4th week) so money was a challenge in spite of the low costs. Initially i was against it but after thinking i thought i was being selfish and changed my mind about her going. We have 2 kids (21, 13) a dog, etc and a life that needs to be kept running, but it isnt hard per se. Weve been married 15 yrs this month and ive never had any reason to suspect any infidelity and as far as i know and she's told me our relationship is great. Separate vacations have NEVER been our thing though, which was the reason on my hesitation. Yeah shes taken an occasional girls weekend or mother/daughters overnight but nothing like a week and nothing even close to an exciting trip like italy.
> 
> Fast forward 6 months to now and in spite of a couple minor tiffs along the way we had an understanding that she did it on her own and i'd find a way to cope while she was gone. I didnt really care to hear the details that would rub it in that she was going and i wasnt, not that she was trying to do that in any way. It was part of my attempted coping mechanism, out of sight out of mind.
> 
> My coping didnt last very long. This is what im really posting about. The friend shes with is her soundboard, shes mine, shes gone, im here now looking for advice. She left friday night, by sunday morning i was feeling slighted, cheated and angry and theres still 6 days to go. I kept it all in for 6 months because i love her dearly like she does me and the last thing i wanted to do was guilt her out of missing something great. Basically i was waiting and hoping she would think deeply about my side and opt not to go and maybe discuss us doing it together somehow another time. She didnt do that and i ended up at a point where i had to say something to get it off my chest or it seriously could be the beginning of the end over something stupid.
> 
> We've now been talking via chats for the last day or so. She says she now understands my side and wishes i had been more honest beforehand. Ive tried to explain to her the only good way out for both of us was if she came to this realization herself. My problem now is i just cant get over this ominous feeling like its just not fair that we both work hard, and we both contribute 100%, and im stuck here dealing with life while shes over there having fun without me. Not talking to her gives me time to steam and even though im pretty sure i ruined her vacation(not my intent, but better that than our marriage) i just get angry that she never really considered how i would feel about having her gone for a week and doing something we could be sharing together. My fear right now is that i wont be able to let this go or the opposite that im being petty, needy, and a jerk and she'll hold that against me. Our talks i believe are genuine in that she really feels bad now that she didnt think about this part, but it doesnt take away from the fact she felt i didnt care that she went off like this. She has offered to cut the trip short, but my crap has been aired out and her coming back early doesnt really do anything but give her a point of future resentment.
> 
> Am i out of line for feeling its unfair? Im hoping, and it should be likely that once shes home its no harm no foul and life moves on. I certainly am not willing to toss out 15yrs of marriage over it, but its just killing me that it appears she never really cared enough to consider my point of view.



(I'm replying without reading anyone's response yet, because I want to make sure I reply as un-biased a manner as possible)

Ok. First let me say that I'm sorry for the situation that you find yourself in. That being said. This is 100% your fault and you need to get over yourself now. The time to address any concern you had with this arrangement was when it was first brought up as a possibility 6 months ago. If you had one iota of an issue with this, your should have grown a pair and calmly yet decisively discussed your concerns with your wife. Instead, you chose to be wishy-washy for half a year and just expect your wife to be a mind reader? Not her problem. What is her problem is that instead of having the supportive husband she thought she had, now she had to deal with a whiny whelp of a husband, who now thinks it's ok to completely spoil her vacation because he can't handle his own insecurities. Do you have any idea how bad your wife probably feels now? ...On the other side of the world...? 

I know my words may seem harsh to you, but seriously, what else can you expect? You probably ruined a once in a lifetime opportunity for her. The smartest thing you can do is to welcome her back at the airport with flowers, candy, and whatever else she loves and apologize to her.


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## nogoer

Edo Edo said:


> (I'm replying without reading anyone's response yet, because I want to make sure I reply as un-biased a manner as possible)
> 
> Ok. First let me say that I'm sorry for the situation that you find yourself in. That being said. This is 100% your fault and you need to get over yourself now. The time to address any concern you had with this arrangement was when it was first brought up as a possibility 6 months ago. If you had one iota of an issue with this, your should have grown a pair and calmly yet decisively discussed your concerns with your wife. Instead, you chose to be wishy-washy for half a year and just expect your wife to be a mind reader? Not her problem. What is her problem is that instead of having the supportive husband she thought she had, now she had to deal with a whiny whelp of a husband, who now thinks it's ok to completely spoil her vacation because he can't handle his own insecurities. Do you have any idea how bad your wife probably feels now? ...On the other side of the world...?
> 
> I know my words may seem harsh to you, but seriously, what else can you expect? You probably ruined a once in a lifetime opportunity for her. The smartest thing you can do is to welcome her back at the airport with flowers, candy, and whatever else she loves and apologize to her.


Yeah you hit the nail on the head and ive followed the same advice you gave. Multiple apologies and supportive comments and i wont let her come home and feel like the trip was some black hole. This is hard on me though especially to keep a happy supportive attitude over everything she did and all the future conversations to friends and family about it. At some point i have to be allowed to take something i need too because this was something i would have liked to enjoy. Noone likes to be the puppy getting thier face rubbed in poo just because they ahd to go and it happened to be inside. I guess thats just a conversation i have to have with her when she gets home and explain to her that im happy for her but she needs to understand i missed out on an opportunity too.

Its easy to be the happy supportive loving spouse when the other wants to do something you would never enjoy like most responders reference. I just wish some of you would realize theres a difference here and really the only reason she or i justified it in any way was the relative low cost. After cell data issues, airfare, passport, and other stuff were going to be well over 1k in costs which i dont care who any of you think you are, 1k is a decent hit to anyones finances.

oh and the flowers and candy at the airport will have to wait. Our anniversary is in 2 weeks and that money was reserved long ago on a worthy 15yr gift.


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## BigDigg

Gotta say OP - while I know you are starting to see the light based on recent comments, this is unbelievably unattractive behavior. Is this a one-off slip-up or are you always this needy and selfish? If my wife did anything like this while I was on a trip (one we had previously agreed to) I would be furious and lose so much respect. But my wife isn't like that. It's going to be tough to back out of this epic failure now no matter what you say. And she'll have plenty of time to stew and become resentful now that you've already negatively impacted her experience in a very negative way.

Here's a clue - if you want your wife to love, respect and want to be with you then show her how happy you are for her. You show her how in-control you are of the house and family so she need not worry about anything. You show her how confident you are by giving her space. You show her how loving you are by listening and sharing in her enjoyment and experience. When she comes home and the house/kids/dog are all in good order she'll beam with pride. But you've done precisely none of these things. How do you think *she* feels about her choice of husband now? How would she feel if you had just sucked it up and pretended to be supportive? 

Sorry to be harsh.


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## brooklynAnn

This is not going to end well. You are angry she spent money you have been saving and in essence, you think that she has wasted funds on a trip, that, should have been a once in a lifetime family trip. Thereforth, robbing you and the kids of that family experience. 

Hopefully you can work out your anger before she comes home. 

Next time don't take 6 months to stew on something without speaking your mind and your concerns. And when you wife ask if it's ok to go and you said yes passively. YOu gave your ok. So, this is on you. 

Don't let this comes too much between your marriage and ruin a good thing. All because your wife use 1K to go on a fancy trip. When she comes back and find you and the kids happy to hear about her trip, the 1k will end up being repaid in so many thoughtful ways, knowing her husband was happy for her. 

Money is just money. It comes and goes. Having love and happinesses in your marriage is worth all the gold in the world. You can always make more money. But if your wife sees you in a diminished way(spiteful, angry, sulking etc) then would be hard to to repair that minute damage.


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## Akfranklin2014

nogoer said:


> After cell data issues, airfare, passport, and other stuff were going to be well over 1k in costs which i dont care who any of you think you are, 1k is a decent hit to anyones finances.




Yes, 1K is a lot, especially if you don't have it. However I believe you got off easy here. Airfare alone can be well over 1k, even for 1 person. I'm sure she already realizes the sacrifices she will have to make to help you save that amount of money up again. You definitely should have spoken up about this when you were discussing it, which I'm sure you now realize. The best option it to not even mention saving the money again when she returns as it will just make her feel guilty for something she shouldn't. I am assuming you handle most of the budget which is why you're stressing over it. She looked to you for approval because of that. So whatever you do, do not throw this I. Her face in any way. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial

nogoer said:


> Ive dreamed for years of taking a working vacation to a ranch out northwest, i should go plan that and do that right now? what should i tell my wife, "you dont own" what i want and im allowed to take vacations from you and dont worry the money will come from somewhere, who cares if savings is depleted.


Hardly parallel, your attitude, is it? You DO start planning it. And on her return, you discuss how that budgetary item is achieved. 



> What reality do you people live in? She takes a trip that eats resources that now keep me from taking mine and vice versa. I mean seriously come on.


The time to discuss this was BEFORE she did this. But that is not really what is eating you.



> She didnt take this trip because she wanted to go to sicily. She took it because her friend was going and there was an opening. Why dont we lighten up on me being such a horrible bad guy here like im forcibly trying to keep her from having any enjoyment in life.


No one is saying you are a horrible person. Just wrong on this one.


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## Wolf1974

We men crucify women over this. “well he should have known even though I never said it” scenario and here you are doing the exact same thing

Look she was offered a trip and YOU said yes. You had months to change a tune about it but you didn’t. You have got to let this go. And make no mistake OP I am with you and generally against solo trips like this but when you give the ok then it’s not right to make her feel guilty about it.

You are feeling bad about being left out. What I suggest is you tell her this was your mistake and your mistake alone agreeing this was ok and you didn’t realize how bad you felt about it till she was gone. Make a deal no more solo trips from here on and then start planning a trip for BOTH of you. Nothing will change your focus faster than thinking what you are missing out on to what you will experience. 

But stop making her feel bad Please don’t be that guy. Just own that mistake and tell her you didn’t realize how badly you miss and need her. She will love that


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## UpsideDownWorld11

nogoer said:


> Is not not a little selfish of her to want to take the trip in the first place? If people werent selfish noone would ever do or get anything they wanted.
> 
> This has been undone as much as it can, or so she says. The picture of the situation and my marriage is not fully fleshed out here and whether everyone believes it or not my wife knew she was being selfish in this situation. I told her i was ok with it which was my mistake when i wasnt and let her feel ok about being selfish. Then i made her feel guilty when i couldnt stand my decision anymore once she left. I apologized numerous times, wished her well and to have fun, told her to take pics and then tell me about it when she got home like i should have form the start.
> 
> I have no desire to follow suit and do this on my own. So im not sure how it will go down if it ever comes up again since i know and now she knows im not good with european girls weeks personally and financially. In fact, and keep your opinions on this to yourself im now feeling burned by the whole thing. Yeah its my fault and no she cant read minds but she knew it was touchy ground and easily could have assumed i wasnt ok even though i told her once i was. Even having voiced my opinion early still could have resulted in this, but with a much higher cost.
> 
> Maybe all of you that think this is super normal and everyone deserves exciting vacations alone or with friends only should take a step back and say hey, why is it i enjoy vacationing alone and or letting my spouse vacation alone. And a vacation like this cannot be confused with a guy taking a hunting trip or a woman going down to thier local coast for a beach weekend or a trip to visit out of state family. This trip is unique and absolutely something considered a family thing. Only the wealthy do this kind of thing normally.


Your feelings on the whole thing is fine. Some married couples would be fine with this sort of thing, others like yourself would not. You both are married and share finances so it certainly is your decision as well. The problem you find yourself in is you gave her permission to go even though you weren't excited she accepted. Don't be so indecisive, make a decision and stick by it. If she knew you hated the idea and she still went that would be a red flag. As it is, you sealed your own fate.


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## manfromlamancha

Just to repeat myself once again (because many seem to think you are being weak and whiny etc etc):

I agree with you in that this isn't something she should have done without you especially since it cost both of you for her to do it and especially since it is something you would want to do with her (and she knew this).


I agree that it was wrong for her to even consider spending money on this without you going and at a time when money was tight.


I agree that it is not a question of you controlling her etc and that she should have known better but didn't.


I agree that you should have said something earlier but also completely understand that you were really trying to be supportive of her while hoping (as I would) that she would see that it was the wrong thing to do without you telling her not to go (because then you would come off as controlling).


And I agree that it was something that was eating away at you and for a moment, you lost it but then was concerned that you had ruined her trip and tried to put it right. In short you were human but also very much a loving and caring husband.


So I think that all in all you have been supportive, loving and caring but also human.


You already know what to do so do it. 


Best of luck!


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## TRy

nogoer said:


> I didnt really care to hear the details that would rub it in that she was going and i wasnt, not that she was trying to do that in any way. It was part of my attempted coping mechanism, out of sight out of mind.





nogoer said:


> i was waiting and hoping she would think deeply about my side and opt not to go and maybe discuss us doing it together somehow another time. She didnt do that and i ended up at a point where i had to say something to get it off my chest or it seriously could be the beginning of the end over something stupid.


 Wow, just wow. You "didnt really care to hear the details that would rub it in that she was going and" not you. You were "waiting and hoping she would think deeply about my side and opt not to go". You "i had to say something to get it off my chest or it seriously could be the beginning of the end over something stupid." 

You are so selfish that it is all about you. You talk about her not seeing it from your side, instead of you making any effort to see it from her side. A one week trip is too much for you? You could not let her enjoy the trip without talking about it "the beginning of the end"? I seriously recommend that you see a therapist and tell them your story. Try out a few different ones, because none of them will agree with you. Not one.


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## ConanHub

I can't really see your issue. You should have spoken about your concerns instead of expecting her to read your mind.

I would only have been worried about my wife's safety. If that concern was dealt with, I would have sent her off to Italy walking funny and made sure she was still having ambulatory difficulty the day after her return.

I think you're out of line here.


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## Sports Fan

From what you have told us it would appear that you have been quite selfish in regards to this matter. You have been together a long time with life's hard grind and raising a family. It is not like your wife does this often. Let her go with her friend alone and enjoy herself. Its only a week. Enjoy the time to yourself, watch football, sports, drink beer, whatever takes your fancy. Its only a week. 

Were you secretly concerned that she might cheat on you hence why the resentment?


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## aine

Stop whinging and man up! If you didn't voice your feelings when it was going down, then why complain now. YOu are pulling some passive aggressive BS now. If the holiday as cheap, she is helping out a friend, then let her enjoy.


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## MattMatt

_//sarcasm mode enacted/_/ Yeah, it's all him, him, him!

The wife blew the family money reserves on a trip for herself? So what? Why is he whining about it? :scratchhead:

All he needs to do is ignore her selfish behaviour, "suck it up buttercup", apologise to her because the family now has depleted resources, and how that is all his fault. //_sarcasm mode disabled_//

Perhaps @nogoer *could* have handled this situation better, but if the wife had said: "Sorry, friend, but my family and I cannot afford your lovely offer" then the situation would not have existed in the first place.

I think he was trying too hard to be the modern, understanding husband, which has backfired on him and his children.

There's one point that _hasn't_ been raised so far and I am somewhat surprised by this:- The family was, apparently, planning to go to Sicily at some point in the future, to visit the ancestral homeland of the children. But, due to their mother's selfishness, this is now _not_ possible for the immediate to medium term future. 

Anyone got any advice on how Mrs nogoer (or perhaps I should says Mrs didgoer?) can make this up to her children?

Or should they just suck it up, too?


----------



## thefam

Nothing more to add except I agree you should have addressed this from the beginning of that's how you felt.

An observation is the number of people who think telling her you didn't want her to go from the beginning would come off as controlling. I would just see it as being honest and transparent.


----------



## Livvie

I want to add to Matt's post. OP reports that their daughter was upset as well about not going as a family-- and didn't want to hear the details of the trip.


----------



## Theseus

MattMatt said:


> _//sarcasm mode enacted/_/ Yeah, it's all him, him, him!
> 
> The wife blew the family money reserves on a trip for herself? So what? Why is he whining about it? :scratchhead:



You didn't notice the part where he didn't raise any objections before she left, and only started complaining on the phone while she was on her trip?


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## MattMatt

Theseus said:


> You didn't notice the part where he didn't raise any objections before she left, and only started complaining on the phone while she was on her trip?


Yes, I did notice that.

You seem not to have noticed where I addressed how/why I thought he made the mistake of not addressing this issue from the first.

It's possible that before she went it was an abstract concept, after she went, it was a concrete reality.

Also, how was he supposed to answer any questions from her? "Yeah, sure, the kids and I are fine with you being over there." Or with some honesty: "No. It sucks that you are in Sicily and we are stuck at home."


----------



## Rowan

I find it interesting that there was no mention of a future planned trip to Sicily in the OP's first post, or even his first several posts. That only came up later as he attempted to justify wishing his wife would have read his mind. There was no initial objection because they'd long planned a similar family trip, and his wife had preempted that. I'm not sure, at all, that there was actually ever a planned future Sicilian family vacation to visit the ancestral homeland. They weren't saving up to visit Sicily. Money was tight because they had _another_ vacation already planned and paid for over July 4th week. I suspect, rather, that this whole thing about her selfishly visiting his family's country of origin without him began figuring into the OP's calculus as he stewed more and more about his wife being gone.


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## Evinrude58

OP,

You are really acting poorly. If your wife was out drinking and partying and flaunting herself before other men, I'd be all on it.
She went on vacation for a WEEK and you're pissed because it cost some money and you didn't get to go anywhere. Fairness?
Good grief, dude. THink of your wife. You've ruined her vacation all because you stewed over something and have let your emotions make a fool out of you.

My suggestion: Be glad you had a wife that ASKED you how you felt about it.
Be glad you have a wife that loves you and you aren't worried about her cheating.
Be glad you were able to be the hero and take care of the home front while she has a once in a lifetime trip.
Be glad you are going to have a loving wife that upon her return, jumps in bed with you and makes things all better.

You have a lot to be thankful for. Stop bellyaching and suck it up. Tell your wife you have let it go and can't wait to see her and tell her how much you love her and want to hear all about her trip.

Or you can keep acting foolish and bust up a good thing you have going.
She can't read your mind. You should have told her from the getgo how you felt. Your bad. Fix it.


----------



## Steelman

A little girls vacation is going to the beach for a few days. But Sicily? Come on people- a lot of us would feel slighted if our significant other was going on that kind of trip while we were staying home.

The only way it would seem normal is if the couple were pretty big international travelers, and this wasn't that big of a deal. to my family, it would be a BIG deal.

You on the other hand, really screwed up by not saying anything before hand. Based on that screw up, you almost need to just accept it and move on at this point.


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

I agree on the Passive/Aggressive thing.

The OP wanted his wife to magically come to the conclusion before the day of her trip about how 'wrong' this all was and cancel it all on her own steam. Because she *didn't *do anything that ridiculous, the OP set about punishing her and ruining the vacation for her. Nicely played.

Good lord - your wife had an opportunity fall in her lap and between you and your kid, you've done nothing but selfishly whine about not being included in it. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, does it?

Were you really THAT dead set on ruining the entire thing for her? Because it sure sounds like you did a damned good job of it.

If my husband were* this *petty and childish and became a whiny little ***** the second I landed on foreign soil, I probably wouldn't have even come back home.

Lastly, if you haven't taught your daughter any better and let her act like a spoiled little brat who refuses to hear about her mom's vacation because she's too damned *selfish* to look past her own nose and be happy that her mother got to have a little joy in her life, then you'd better get back to the drawing board with that one.


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## NobodySpecial

The whole the only way a married people travel without each other thing is a distraction. Married people are still people. I would not think anything of taking advantage of a great opportunity, nor would my husband begrudge it even if he and the kids missed out. And vice versa. We would be cheering each other all the way to the airport and asking for pics. My kids would be saying damn I wish I were in Sicily but sure am glad Mom/Dad get a break from the daily grind.


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## brooklynAnn

NobodySpecial said:


> The whole the only way a married people travel without each other thing is a distraction. Married people are still people. I would not think anything of taking advantage of a great opportunity, nor would my husband begrudge it even if he and the kids missed out. And vice versa. We would be cheering each other all the way to the airport and asking for pics. My kids would be saying damn I wish I were in Sicily but sure am glad Mom/Dad get a break from the daily grind.


And bring back something nice for me.


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## MattMatt

NobodySpecial said:


> The whole the only way a married people travel without each other thing is a distraction. Married people are still people. I would not think anything of taking advantage of a great opportunity, nor would my husband begrudge it even if he and the kids missed out. And vice versa. We would be cheering each other all the way to the airport and asking for pics. *My kids would be saying damn I wish I were in Sicily but sure am glad Mom/Dad get a break from the daily grind*.


Really? I'm glad your kids would think like that, but many others wouldn't think like that.


----------



## NobodySpecial

MattMatt said:


> Really? I'm glad your kids would think like that, but many others wouldn't think like that.


That's kind of the point. It is not useful advice to this poster what other people would think but to work out what he and his wife want for their marriage and how to raise their kids thusly. NOT make blanket statements about how travelling works in marriage.


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## MyRevelation

nogoer,

Just a question, that I don't think anyone else has touched on (admitted a somewhat projection given my experience), but what can you tell us about your W's travelling partner? Any questions about her character? Any red flags? Why did she suddenly wind up needing a travel partner?


----------



## MattMatt

MyRevelation said:


> nogoer,
> 
> Just a question, that I don't think anyone else has touched on (admitted a somewhat projection given my experience), but what can you tell us about your W's travelling partner? Any questions about her character? Any red flags? Why did she suddenly wind up needing a travel partner?


Her husband dropped out of the trip.


----------



## MyRevelation

MattMatt said:


> Her husband dropped out of the trip.


I saw that in his OP, but "why" did the H drop out? Could be any number of reasons, most of which could be completely innocent, but something's got nogoer's gut wound up.

Granted, I'm always aware of my tendencies toward projection when it comes to girls only trips, but IMHO, its a HUGE red flag for middle aged women, who've been M'd 10+ years to be going on exotic girls only trips ... and I can hear the panties bunching now ... even if they leave with no ill intentions, that is often NOT the way they return. They are low hanging fruit, and easily identifiable, for the male players that frequent such locales.

This may not be the case here at all, but it happens often enough, that it is at least a valid question for the OP to answer and consider.


----------



## ABHale

nogoer said:


> sunsetmist said:
> 
> 
> 
> You sound like you appreciate and are learning from prior advice.
> 
> I'm wondering if you may be afraid that this is the beginning of a 'new norm' in your marriage? You don't want change.
> 
> Say what you mean and mean what you say---but do SAY it. Discuss it.
> 
> You say you love her--love means sacrifice along with about a million other things. Share her joy don't damper it.
> 
> Sounds like y'all have a good foundation on which to continue building.
> 
> 
> 
> I live on the internet and know how dark it can turn from lack of information, but these responses have surprised me at how insightful many of you are.
> 
> Yes now that you mention it im very worried this becomes an annual thing. Its not that im change averse, its i dont understand what would motivate a spouse in a happy marriage to want to always have fantastic experiences without the family and at the families expense. These things cost money and time that would ahve to come from somewhere and in our family its already allotted to other things.
> 
> Im pretty sure she underestimated how she would feel being away form us all on something like this and probably not try to arrange it again. However the week is still young and its an exciting place with friends and goodtimes thats going to leave a lasting impression.
Click to expand...

For the same reason a spouse will cheat putting the whole family to the side, Selfishness. 

Your wife was only thinking of herself. 

I have no problems with a wife or husband spending time with friends. 

Some do vacation separately and have their entire relationship. 

Some don’t and never thought of doing so. 

It’s when one partner starts out of the blue that problems arise. 

You have every right to feel slighted.


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## kag123

I read half of the replies here and saw you were taking quite the beating. 

I just wanted to reach out and let you know that I would be upset too if I were in your shoes. 

The way you handled it, sucked. It seems like you know that already and have apologized to your wife for it. You'll probably have to do some additional damage control once she returns. 

However - I get it. I get what you are feeling. 

In my marriage, we do 99.9999% of our activities (outside of work) together. We like it that way. We genuinely enjoy each other's company and want to experience things together as a family, or as husband and wife. My husband is my best friend. We have friends, that we always see as a couple together, and truthfully I have very little interest in spending time with friends when my husband wouldn't be present. That's just how it goes and how we like to operate. I know plenty of other couples who do lots of things separately and I see nothing wrong with it. It's just not our cup of tea. 

Neither of us would "forbid" the other to do something alone. But, I think we both do a gut check before committing to anything - is this something that my husband/wife would also like to experience? Is it something that will give the other person bad feelings if I go through with it? If the answer is yes... we either will decline the invitation, or go but make plans to do that thing together at a later time. 

An international trip is a big deal for us. Both my H and I work hard, have limited vacation time from work with busy schedules for our family, and don't have a ton of money to frivilously spend, so our vacations are planned well in advance and budget friendly. We've talked for years and years about a big international trip but when we look at the budget, don't feel comfortable spending that kind of money yet. Our 10 year anniversary is coming up and we talked about doing a big trip for it... but truthfully we are both STILL not comfortable spending that money yet so we will continue to put it off. If one of us was invited on a trip like that - we would not accept it - regardless of whether it was affordable simply because it was something we were saving to experience together. Personally, I would not enjoy it if my H could not be there with me. 

You are in a tough spot though because she did go ahead with it, and that just showed you that she has a different view of this issue than you do. Her view isn't necessarily wrong btw, just very different than yours and one that had never come to light before because previously the opportunity had never presented itself. If I were in your shoes I would find the realization that she chose differently than I expected, jarring. After you've been with someone for so long, you think you know exactly how they will behave on virtually every issue... but some issues you have to realize you just made a big assumption about because they haven't come up before. 

The "correct" way to handle it in my opinion is for you to suck it up and if you can't be happy for her, at a minimum be neutral and not negative about it. Use the time that she is away traveling to lick your wounds and get your resolve together to offer her a warm welcome when she returns. 

Later, once the trip is long passed, you can discuss how in the future you'd prefer to keep big vacations for the family and not spend the money on big trips alone. 

Related story if it makes you feel any better: My kids are involved in an extra-curricular activity together and an opportunity came up through the activity organizer to get free tickets to the home opener NFL game this weekend, that included VIP field access and meeting some of the players. It was first come first serve, so I immediately called the organizer and secured tickets for us.... got super excited that I was able to get them and let my H know. Later that evening, I met the organizer to pick up the tickets. Turns out, we only got 3 tickets, not 4. In my excitement to be the first one to call him and secure tickets for us, I skipped the fine print of his email that stated that only one parent from each family could accompany their kids to this game (limited seats available and they wanted to make sure as many kids as possible in the group got to go rather than tix being taken up by all the parents). H and I talked about it and how disappointed we were that one of us had to sit out. We have never been to a NFL game together, and certainly never dreamed of taking our kids because we didn't feel it was worth it to spend $500+ on tickets to get us there. I decided he should be the one to go... hes the bigger NFL fan, but dang if I wasn't jealous all day Sunday watching him post pictures on his Facebook of the game and posing with the players. I'm still a bit jealous when I think about it, but I used the time they were gone to get my head on straight and suck it up. I was happy that they got that experience and I just winked at him and said "you owe me one for getting you guys those tickets!" Realistically I will never cash in on that, it was said in a lighthearted manner. I know my H was thankful to get to go and happy that I was cheerful about it. For the sake of my marriage I tried to work on being a gracious loser!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk


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## bandit.45

nogoer said:


> I do not limit her to only doing things with me or the family. *Shouldnt she want me to experience stuff like this too*? Theres two sides to a marriage and its not fair to comment like only my wife deserves great things. You make me sound like a long lost puppy who needs to follow her around constantly dragging her down. Yes i miss her and yes this caught me off guard for how i felt about it. I dont make a habit of living life the way you seem to think i do.


Who says she doesn't? 

Look friend, anytime a great deal lands in your lap, you should go for it. Your wife had a great deal land in her lap and you should be happy for her. Instead of getting hurt about not being able to be there with her, you should be asking her to make a list of all the neat places she can take you when you both can afford to go to Sicily. I would assume your wife works hard to maintain a house and raise the children. Sometimes moms need to get away and decompress. This trip is a perfect opportunity for her to get some down-time, without husband and kids stressing her out, and to enjoy seeing a part of the world she has never been to and a culture she has never experienced.

A strong, self-assured man supports his wife and encourages her to expand her horizons and enjoy her life. So stop being a weak putz. 

If you support her in this, hold down the fort while she's gone, and make sure the house is clean when she gets back, she will be one very happy, contented lady upon her return. 

Remember: happy wife, happy life.


----------



## ABHale

nogoer said:


> manfromlamancha said:
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that he did not want her to go ..... without him. He does want her to go on vacation to somewhere exciting like Sicily .... with him!
> 
> And I understand this. This was not a girls night out or something like that. This is the sort of thing you do with your spouse or family. Now if it was completely free, then maybe it would be a question of being too good an opportunity. But it was not that. I think he has been quite magnanimous about it but has poor coping skills.
> 
> I still stand by my advice and I believe he has come to the same conclusion on his own.
> 
> 
> 
> I didnt say it but you did so thanks. this sort of trip really isnt a girls night kind of thing. Its a family or couples getaway and we have discussed sicily in the past as well as other foreign places for us to go. My grandmother is from sicily and i have family there, not that ive met though. We just never could justify the expense and have been putting it off for a later in life sort of escapade. Ireland being one we talk about frequently.
> 
> Many of you were so concise in your advice it hit home really quick. I was wrong in what i did, but it doesnt change how i feel or that i dont have some sort of ground to stand on. I should have said something in the beginning, i still dont know why i didnt. There are reasons she knew it probably wasnt the best idea, but i let them slide and perhaps she was blinded by the exciting idea of going away. I think there were lessons to be learned on both sides for us.
Click to expand...

Maybe you let it slide to see if see would actually go without you. 

Damn, it was supposed to be a location the two of you went together as talked about. 

Why would she go to a romantic getaway that the two of you talked about going together? I understand the friend asking but your wife should of said something about the two of you planning a trip there at a later date. I mean what are you going to do now if you go. Your wife is going to be like been there done that. 

Or just plan the trip for you and your daughters for next year to go. 

Not really but it would be tempting to do so.


----------



## ABHale

sunsetmist said:


> Now I see that Sicily has special family connections and meaning to you.
> 
> From this point forward, enjoy her pics and reports. (Let go of resentment--it will only hurt you). Be a warm and loving husband, because anything else is counter-productive to the marriage.
> 
> The above behavior will be a blessing to your marriage and you will likely feel happier because you have indeed given your wife a special gift.


Or make him look like a idiot after voicing his opinion. They need to talk this through when she returns so there are no misunderstandings in the future. 

He has no right to say no you can’t do this, he is her husband not her dad. All he could say with out looking like an controlling ass is “have fun”. He was in a no win situation once she asked to go. 

She on the other hand should have took into consideration the family before asking to go. Expenses and future destination for the two of them. Like op said, their savings is gone now because of this trip. 

She should have told her friend thanks but no.


----------



## ABHale

Has no one stopped to consider what his wife reaction would have been if he said no. 

If he was really ok with it no problems. He wasn’t ok with it. This has never been done by either one of them their entire relationship. Then one day he is hit upside the head with a 2 x 4. Honey can I go to Sicily without you and with my friend instead. I would like to know who would not of been staggered but something like this. Think of your SO coming up to you with no warning or talks previously and asking for a open marriage, separation or anything out of the ordinary. 

This was her decision to make not OP’s. 

His wife put him in a no win position with him not being ok with it. No matter was his response was, it wasn’t going to end well. At least he knows now that she is willing to tell the family screw you I’m doing what I want no matter how hard it hits the family financially and other wise. 

So if a once in a lifetime chance comes up for her to have a threesome that she secretly wants, she should ask then go for it?

Most of you are talking like just because it’s great for her it’s ok. That it doesn’t matter how it effects the rest of the family. 

These trip has crippled the family financially for the time being. This was a poor decision on her part to even ask to go.


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## Blondilocks

His wife can get a second job and repay every penny she spent on her selfish, little one week vacation. She can also kiss his ass every day for the rest of her life to atone for being so damn selfish and not reading his mind and leaving her family to fend for themselves for a WHOLE WEEK! Isn't motherhood grand? Just makes carrying those babes for 9 months and going through childbirth so worth it. 

Actually, what she will probably do is withdraw and not share future dreams with him and refrain from getting excited about something lest it cause his jealousies to rear their ugly little heads and cause world war III. 

OP, I wish you luck getting over this and getting your marriage back on track.


----------



## Livvie

I wonder how she would have reacted if he had asked to take this trip.


----------



## SarcasticRed

I would probably be a bit upset if my husband took a week trip without me ESPECIALLY to a place we had talked about visiting. So I get that. Even if I was 'okay' with it and for whatever reason only he could go and it was a great opportunity for him, I'd still probably be a bit jealous and would miss him. So, I get that. 

But, as you've been told many times, the time to speak up was before she is on the trip. You know this and are trying to make her have a good time, though I have a feeling the trip will be clouded. Personally, I don't think I could easily move past my husband giving me a guilt trip while on an agreed upon trip. 

$1,000 (or even $1500) for a trip like this super cheap. Amazingly cheap. However, if $1000 is a financial hardship, and it sounds like it is, then that right there is the reason not to go. But again...the time to speak up was before and now you are doing damage control. When she comes home, it could be a great time to open a family discussion (the 13 year old is old enough) to set a goal for a bigger trip and what it will take to get there budget wise. Turn this into a motivator to do a family trip somewhere special.


----------



## nogoer

BigDigg said:


> Gotta say OP - while I know you are starting to see the light based on recent comments, this is unbelievably unattractive behavior. Is this a one-off slip-up or are you always this needy and selfish? If my wife did anything like this while I was on a trip (one we had previously agreed to) I would be furious and lose so much respect. But my wife isn't like that. It's going to be tough to back out of this epic failure now no matter what you say. And she'll have plenty of time to stew and become resentful now that you've already negatively impacted her experience in a very negative way.
> 
> Here's a clue - if you want your wife to love, respect and want to be with you then show her how happy you are for her. You show her how in-control you are of the house and family so she need not worry about anything. You show her how confident you are by giving her space. You show her how loving you are by listening and sharing in her enjoyment and experience. When she comes home and the house/kids/dog are all in good order she'll beam with pride. But you've done precisely none of these things. How do you think *she* feels about her choice of husband now? How would she feel if you had just sucked it up and pretended to be supportive?
> 
> Sorry to be harsh.


I didnt expect this post to keep going, but ill respond to this response and avoid getting sucked in by trying to respond to all. Ill give an update as well.

This is a one time thing, its really the only time anything like this has happened either so its new for both of us and im mostly positive it wont happen again. I have done before and always was capable of running things alone and in the past ive never had these feelings about her or our marriage. She knows im capable and normally not needy or selfish so i have done most of those things.

We have started talking regularly now and im giving her support and trying to experience the trip with her as she goes along. I am sure to always tell her to have fun and make sure im not distracting too much from her time. The 6 hour time difference does help to provide time to chat without holding her up. By the time im up in the morning shes already halfway through her day and done so without interference from me. We chat occasionally through the day since most of the time the group is just hanging at thier villa. She sends me pics of the vistas, meals shes eating, and the crappy wierd toilet she has to use.

From what she says, and i know you know and i know too that she is probably trying to make me feel better by saying everything is fine and i didnt ruin it too much and then redeemed myself by apologizing, but it's probably not as true as she wants me to believe. I also know ill never be able to show my face around her friend again either, but in the years since they reconnected weve only done 1 thing together as a group so i doubt its an issue anyway.

It feels like she is happy now that she can actually talk to me about her days and that we are actually talking. We both work at offices and normally spend every work day discussing life, us, and random stuff over chat. So we are accustomed to having that be there from the other.

Since this is so anonymous i can admit to everyone that i have been having for the past couple years increasingly more frequent attacks that have been recently identified as anxiety attacks. Whatever the cause for those is assuredly what has pushed me off the deep end over this. Its also the cause for why i feel this way no matter what im told or how much i dont want to feel that way. The whole experience has prompted me to start therapy and my first appointment is tomorrow. If you knew me though you would know how hard this is so its very depressing to have to start this without the support of my wife being here. For her though ill make sure i follow through.

We have a much much closer relationship than it appears most of the rest of you do. We dont "need" each other but we both dont feel right without daily contact and support from each other. Ill send her to this thread to tell you so if i have to and that its not just me being needy. Theres a lot of background not shared here and all of her side that would partially support me against many of these responses. All i really wanted, especially from her was acknowledgement that she got something special and its ok to be sad that i missed out and that shes sorry i missed out. I could have used some support from her as well before she left that there were no hidden motives behind her desire to leave and we were good. Again though thats my fault for not asking for what i needed from her and for forcing her to feel like she couldnt share anything about the trip.

Let me ask this though, would i have been wrong to tell her back then i didnt like it and i didnt want her to go? What if she decided i was wrong for that and decided to just go anyway? I feel like she would have respected my side, but i still would have felt selfish. It just seems like i had no respectful or loving way out of that situation that left me feeling whole.


----------



## nogoer

Rowan said:


> I find it interesting that there was no mention of a future planned trip to Sicily in the OP's first post, or even his first several posts. That only came up later as he attempted to justify wishing his wife would have read his mind. There was no initial objection because they'd long planned a similar family trip, and his wife had preempted that. I'm not sure, at all, that there was actually ever a planned future Sicilian family vacation to visit the ancestral homeland. They weren't saving up to visit Sicily. Money was tight because they had _another_ vacation already planned and paid for over July 4th week. I suspect, rather, that this whole thing about her selfishly visiting his family's country of origin without him began figuring into the OP's calculus as he stewed more and more about his wife being gone.



My wife and i have discussed, not planned taking trips to foreign lands for many years. This friend often takes these trips and im sure was a huge influence of past trips on doing this one. We both want the adventure and im a huge history guy and would love to see some of these ancient places. That being said we always agree that now is not the right time because of the costs and family and responsebilities, even if it was just a couples trip. She usually picks the places we take the annual family vacation too and has chosen marthas vineyard the last few years which we all agree on and enjoy.

I think, after stewing that part of this was she just saw her chance to finally take a trip like this and let it offset the more mundane reasons for not taking it. If so she really should have expressed more to me her growing desire to actually get a trip like this done so we could share it together. It will be part of our talk once she returns.


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## personofinterest

It sounds like the 2 of you are working through it, so don't let yourself get lost in what if. And please, for the love of everything, don't start getting all paranoid and thinking your wife is cheating just because some men on the Internet are in love with projection. This is a one time incident that the 2 of you sound like you are working through just fine.


----------



## NobodySpecial

nogoer said:


> Let me ask this though, *would i have been wrong to tell her back then* i didnt like it and i didnt want her to go? What if she decided i was wrong for that and decided to just go anyway? I feel like she would have respected my side, but i still would have felt selfish. It just seems like i had no respectful or loving way out of that situation that left me feeling whole.


I don't think so. I don't like it is not the same as THOU SHALT NOT GO. Saying so and examining and conversing seems great to me. You say I don't like it. She says... don't know. We'll never know. I respectfully and lovingly feel <insert whatever you felt>. While I really want to want to just say Go Have Fun, I am conflicted... Or whatever. I am so glad you guys are close and can communicate from where you are now just the same.


----------



## nogoer

MyRevelation said:


> nogoer,
> 
> Just a question, that I don't think anyone else has touched on (admitted a somewhat projection given my experience), but what can you tell us about your W's travelling partner? Any questions about her character? Any red flags? Why did she suddenly wind up needing a travel partner?


Ok i got sucked in like i didnt intend to, but its helping to pass the time.

This is a big part of my gripe on this. Her friend, Gabi as ill refer to her was a friend she had in high school. A few years ago they reconnected and have ever since done mostly regular girls night outs and such. theyve done a few activities like trained for a half marathon and taken some beach days. Nothing ive ever really felt threatened over, but always something i was explcitly excluded from by gabi by good design. Like an after work thing or i cant make it all the way to you. The subject of coming to ours while im there comes up(i think by my wife) but Gabi always has a reason to cancel. Then this past april around her birthday Gabi invited my wife to dinner in celebration for her brithday, not on the day but close. They went to a new restaurant in town that we were talkign about goign to. I wasnt invited, it was a last minute thing and she went right from work. It was for her birthday and i should have been included, but i stayed home and handled the family like a supportive husband. 

This week while depressingly stalking my wifes facebook(i know already) page i found a video of that night and her riding a mechanical bull. Now im pretty country and boast about bull riding often and would have LOVED to be part of that with her and i know shes knows she should have called and said come down right away when she saw it. All i got after though was no mention of that and a mega downplay at how the food sucked. Im guessing she felt guilty after the fact.

If it wasnt for this trip being with Gabi i probably would not have fallen so hard, but being excluded from this and whats basically her social life with Gabi hit hard. I started reeling wondering if ive been excluded because Gabi has issues with me or thinks my wife could do better. At minimum it feels like Gabi is deliberately trying to force my wife to have some sort of separation from me and her and our family.

As to the premise of the trip. Supposedly Gabi's husband jorge had to drop out and Gabis son was too busy with the new school year to go so Gabi was going alone. I have also found out that its not a girls trip either. Its an annual family trip by Gabis family and her sisters were there as well as sisters husband and husbands friend and mother and mothers friend. I wasn't given a reason why jorge had to drop out, but he was here to take them to the airport and is planning on picking them up as well. Hes closer and its Gabis trip really so i dont feel bad hes doing it although i am going to ask to help if i can. Ive contemplated asking him the deal, but at this point theres nothing to gain from that except misery and anger on all sides.

Honestly im sure im over analyzing it, but my wife already knows ive felt something was wierd with thier relationship and how it always works out im not involved. Next time though Gabis going to get a surprise because im going to insist to my wife that i go along too because i need a night out. I wont force it but it will be very telling if it goes down that i cant go even just this one time. I seriously want to be more involved in her social life, but between my thing and life i never end up doing so and im concerned ive let an issue arise. Im not a huge social person, especially when it comes to bar hopping or the like. It doesnt change the fact Gabi really has never bothered to talk to me or get to know me. Yes i have made my own awkward attempts to her. Even offered to babysit for her so the two of them could go out and its all met with indifference.


----------



## Evinrude58

ABHale said:


> Has no one stopped to consider what his wife reaction would have been if he said no.
> 
> If he was really ok with it no problems. He wasn’t ok with it. This has never been done by either one of them their entire relationship. Then one day he is hit upside the head with a 2 x 4. Honey can I go to Sicily without you and with my friend instead. I would like to know who would not of been staggered but something like this. Think of your SO coming up to you with no warning or talks previously and asking for a open marriage, separation or anything out of the ordinary.
> 
> This was her decision to make not OP’s.
> 
> His wife put him in a no win position with him not being ok with it. No matter was his response was, it wasn’t going to end well. At least he knows now that she is willing to tell the family screw you I’m doing what I want no matter how hard it hits the family financially and other wise.
> 
> So if a once in a lifetime chance comes up for her to have a threesome that she secretly wants, she should ask then go for it?
> 
> Most of you are talking like just because it’s great for her it’s ok. That it doesn’t matter how it effects the rest of the family.
> 
> 
> These trip has crippled the family financially for the time being. This was a poor decision on her part to even ask to go.


No doubt, but he SHOULD have let her know his feelings on the matter, and then let her make her own decision. IF he had a wife that was a good person, when he told her that the trip would put them in a financial strain and that they had a trip PLANNED TOGETHER and that he would be really disappointed if they didn't have a vacation TOGETHER, she could have only come to the conclusion that she was being selfish and decided against it. 

OP didn't do this. He DID NOT state his thoughts on the matter, and therefore needs to stuff the sandwich down and swallow. No good will come of him making more of this.

I do think it's a good idea that she find a way to repay the family for her own excursion.


----------



## Evinrude58

nogoer said:


> Ok i got sucked in like i didnt intend to, but its helping to pass the time.
> 
> This is a big part of my gripe on this. Her friend, Gabi as ill refer to her was a friend she had in high school. A few years ago they reconnected and have ever since done mostly regular girls night outs and such. theyve done a few activities like trained for a half marathon and taken some beach days. Nothing ive ever really felt threatened over, but always something i was explcitly excluded from by gabi by good design. Like an after work thing or i cant make it all the way to you. The subject of coming to ours while im there comes up(i think by my wife) but Gabi always has a reason to cancel. Then this past april around her birthday Gabi invited my wife to dinner in celebration for her brithday, not on the day but close. They went to a new restaurant in town that we were talkign about goign to. I wasnt invited, it was a last minute thing and she went right from work. It was for her birthday and i should have been included, but i stayed home and handled the family like a supportive husband.
> 
> This week while depressingly stalking my wifes facebook(i know already) page i found a video of that night and her riding a mechanical bull. Now im pretty country and boast about bull riding often and would have LOVED to be part of that with her and i know shes knows she should have called and said come down right away when she saw it. All i got after though was no mention of that and a mega downplay at how the food sucked. Im guessing she felt guilty after the fact.
> 
> If it wasnt for this trip being with Gabi i probably would not have fallen so hard, but being excluded from this and whats basically her social life with Gabi hit hard. I started reeling wondering if ive been excluded because Gabi has issues with me or thinks my wife could do better. At minimum it feels like Gabi is deliberately trying to force my wife to have some sort of separation from me and her and our family.
> 
> As to the premise of the trip. Supposedly Gabi's husband jorge had to drop out and Gabis son was too busy with the new school year to go so Gabi was going alone. I have also found out that its not a girls trip either. Its an annual family trip by Gabis family and her sisters were there as well as sisters husband and husbands friend and mother and mothers friend. I wasn't given a reason why jorge had to drop out, but he was here to take them to the airport and is planning on picking them up as well. Hes closer and its Gabis trip really so i dont feel bad hes doing it although i am going to ask to help if i can. Ive contemplated asking him the deal, but at this point theres nothing to gain from that except misery and anger on all sides.
> 
> Honestly im sure im over analyzing it, but my wife already knows ive felt something was wierd with thier relationship and how it always works out im not involved. Next time though Gabis going to get a surprise because im going to insist to my wife that i go along too because i need a night out. I wont force it but it will be very telling if it goes down that i cant go even just this one time. I seriously want to be more involved in her social life, but between my thing and life i never end up doing so and im concerned ive let an issue arise. Im not a huge social person, especially when it comes to bar hopping or the like. It doesnt change the fact Gabi really has never bothered to talk to me or get to know me. Yes i have made my own awkward attempts to her. Even offered to babysit for her so the two of them could go out and its all met with indifference.


Hmmmm..... This is interesting. I do think there may be some gut instinct at play here. When you have a 6th sense that tells you something is off, you're usually wise to listen well. Something is up here. You shouldn't be excluded, and your wife shouldn't be so eager to hang out with someone that clearly excludes you. AND, you shouldn't be so willing to watch the kids while she goes on these "nights out" to honky tonks with bullriding and drinking. Sounds like doormat behavior to me.
JMO


----------



## nogoer

Evinrude58 said:


> Hmmmm..... This is interesting. I do think there may be some gut instinct at play here. When you have a 6th sense that tells you something is off, you're usually wise to listen well. Something is up here. You shouldn't be excluded, and your wife shouldn't be so eager to hang out with someone that clearly excludes you. AND, you shouldn't be so willing to watch the kids while she goes on these "nights out" to honky tonks with bullriding and drinking. Sounds like doormat behavior to me.
> JMO


My wife is gracious enough while away to let me devolve occasionally, she says it makes her feel loved. So I brought up the Gabi issue and and told her we needed to talk about it when she got back. The air needs to be cleared big time and i get she wants some time out, but im also thinking i let it be a habit of time out without me because id rather hang out at home. I need to change this aspect and try to be more of a social person with her when she wants it.


----------



## ABHale

nogoer said:


> MyRevelation said:
> 
> 
> 
> nogoer,
> 
> Just a question, that I don't think anyone else has touched on (admitted a somewhat projection given my experience), but what can you tell us about your W's travelling partner? Any questions about her character? Any red flags? Why did she suddenly wind up needing a travel partner?
> 
> 
> 
> Ok i got sucked in like i didnt intend to, but its helping to pass the time.
> 
> This is a big part of my gripe on this. Her friend, Gabi as ill refer to her was a friend she had in high school. A few years ago they reconnected and have ever since done mostly regular girls night outs and such. theyve done a few activities like trained for a half marathon and taken some beach days. Nothing ive ever really felt threatened over, but always something i was explcitly excluded from by gabi by good design. Like an after work thing or i cant make it all the way to you. The subject of coming to ours while im there comes up(i think by my wife) but Gabi always has a reason to cancel. Then this past april around her birthday Gabi invited my wife to dinner in celebration for her brithday, not on the day but close. They went to a new restaurant in town that we were talkign about goign to. I wasnt invited, it was a last minute thing and she went right from work. It was for her birthday and i should have been included, but i stayed home and handled the family like a supportive husband.
> 
> This week while depressingly stalking my wifes facebook(i know already) page i found a video of that night and her riding a mechanical bull. Now im pretty country and boast about bull riding often and would have LOVED to be part of that with her and i know shes knows she should have called and said come down right away when she saw it. All i got after though was no mention of that and a mega downplay at how the food sucked. Im guessing she felt guilty after the fact.
> 
> If it wasnt for this trip being with Gabi i probably would not have fallen so hard, but being excluded from this and whats basically her social life with Gabi hit hard. I started reeling wondering if ive been excluded because Gabi has issues with me or thinks my wife could do better. At minimum it feels like Gabi is deliberately trying to force my wife to have some sort of separation from me and her and our family.
> 
> As to the premise of the trip. Supposedly Gabi's husband jorge had to drop out and Gabis son was too busy with the new school year to go so Gabi was going alone. I have also found out that its not a girls trip either. Its an annual family trip by Gabis family and her sisters were there as well as sisters husband and husbands friend and mother and mothers friend. I wasn't given a reason why jorge had to drop out, but he was here to take them to the airport and is planning on picking them up as well. Hes closer and its Gabis trip really so i dont feel bad hes doing it although i am going to ask to help if i can. Ive contemplated asking him the deal, but at this point theres nothing to gain from that except misery and anger on all sides.
> 
> Honestly im sure im over analyzing it, but my wife already knows ive felt something was wierd with thier relationship and how it always works out im not involved. Next time though Gabis going to get a surprise because im going to insist to my wife that i go along too because i need a night out. I wont force it but it will be very telling if it goes down that i cant go even just this one time. I seriously want to be more involved in her social life, but between my thing and life i never end up doing so and im concerned ive let an issue arise. Im not a huge social person, especially when it comes to bar hopping or the like. It doesnt change the fact Gabi really has never bothered to talk to me or get to know me. Yes i have made my own awkward attempts to her. Even offered to babysit for her so the two of them could go out and its all met with indifference.
Click to expand...

This puts a whole new light in things. Didn’t realize that you and your wife have had a separate social life for so long. 

So she prefers her friend Gabi over you. Good to know.


----------



## nogoer

ABHale said:


> This puts a whole new light in things. Didn’t realize that you and your wife have had a separate social life for so long.
> 
> So she prefers her friend Gabi over you. Good to know.


I wouldnt take it that far or picture as such. We dont go out alot together and i undertsand the meet up for catch up dinner and or drinks. Its usually only a few hours and i handle dinner, which i normally do for the other 3 of us. I dont want to downplay it though because it's just never a oh why dont you join us this time kind fo thing. Still once a month or so isnt giving me the need her over you feeling. Outside of family gatherings, which are very regular on both sides Gabi is the only social life she takes which as ive explained im excluded from.


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## Roselyn

OP, 60 year old woman here, 38 years married (first marriage for the both of us), and just recently retired. My husband & I have a rule that our friends must be mutual from both sides. As you are not a friend of Gabi's, your wife should not have a social life with her only. You stated that you attempted to make friends with Gabi & she has not reciprocated. She is not a friend of your marriage.

My only elder sister was a friend for both of us, so I thought. Then she got divorced & invited me to hang out with her to museums & concerts. I don't drink, so bar scenes are not for me. My husband did not have a problem as we are sisters. He was wrong, my sister wanted my time alone only. As time went, she deviced all sorts of scenarios to make a wedge between my husband & I. My sister is toxic to my marriage. I don't have her in my life anymore as I came to realize how narcissistic she really is. 

Have a "Come To Jesus" talk with your wife. Her friendship with Gabi will be a thorn in your marriage.


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## personofinterest

> i know shes knows she should have called and said come down right away when she saw it.


You still seem to expect her to do a lot of mind-reading. If you want things to improve, you are going to have to stop the passive hinting stuff and TALK directly to your wife.


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## Evinrude58

nogoer said:


> My wife is gracious enough while away to let me devolve occasionally, she says it makes her feel loved. *So I brought up the Gabi issue and and told her we needed to talk about it when she got back*. The air needs to be cleared big time and i get she wants some time out, but im also thinking i let it be a habit of time out without me because id rather hang out at home. I need to change this aspect and try to be more of a social person with her when she wants it.


why would you make her dread coming home to you?
Not smart.

You are being so counterproductive right now. Stop stewing. I wouldn't say ANYTHING to her except positive things until you are over your anger/miffedness about this. Really.


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## Evinrude58

nogoer said:


> I wouldnt take it that far or picture as such. We dont go out alot together and i undertsand the meet up for catch up dinner and or drinks. Its usually only a few hours and i handle dinner, *which i normally do for the other 3 of us*. I dont want to downplay it though because it's just never a oh why dont you join us this time kind fo thing. Still once a month or so isnt giving me the need her over you feeling. Outside of family gatherings, which are very regular on both sides Gabi is the only social life she takes which as ive explained im excluded from.


Do you have a job? Do you always do dinner? Do you do the laundry and housekeeping too?


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## nogoer

personofinterest said:


> You still seem to expect her to do a lot of mind-reading. If you want things to improve, you are going to have to stop the passive hinting stuff and TALK directly to your wife.


Not possible here as i had no idea what the place was like. shes my wife though and knows what i like and for christs sake i can reasonably expect her to think of me sometimes and have an idea of what might be fun for me.

Im not the only one that needs to make this effort, but for now im going to blame it on Gabi and her finding a way to distract my wife from having bring me in.


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## nogoer

Evinrude58 said:


> Do you have a job? Do you always do dinner? Do you do the laundry and housekeeping too?


Yes we both work fulltime. I do all the cooking because i enjoy it as well as the normal gender role stuff. She does the laundry and cleaning, but our 21 yr old is expected to chip in of her own volition so cleaning and laundry are a minimal chore. The 21yr is in college but home most of the week and is able to stay on top of chores, especially laundry. I help when asked and try to step in and help when i see its needed. Really we both feel the other still does too much but are both comfortable with the load we do and confident in getting help when asked for.


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## 55Z

My thought is Gabi is not your wife's friend but her worst enemy. While reading your thread I kept thinking there was more to the story and Bam you finally coughed it up. During your talk you had better make it clear that keeping Gabi as a friend is a deal breaker for the the marriage. Somehow you have got to make it sink in to your wife that Gabi is toxic to your marriage and family. But then again that's exactly what Gabi wants, isn't it? Good luck, I hope we do not see you in the Breaking up or infidelity forums!

I know this is pessimistic, but I've read a lot of these threads and this seems to be the theme to some of them. My marriage (24 years) seems to be much like yours without a Gabi of course. We have a really good marriage and relationship so I'm not sure why I am this pessimistic about your situation - so take it with a grain of salt.


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## nogoer

55Z said:


> My thought is Gabi is not your wife's friend but her worst enemy. While reading your thread I kept thinking there was more to the story and Bam you finally coughed it up. During your talk you had better make it clear that keeping Gabi as a friend is a deal breaker for the the marriage. Somehow you have got to make it sink in to your wife that Gabi is toxic to your marriage and family. But then again that's exactly what Gabi wants, isn't it? Good luck, I hope we do not see you in the Breaking up or infidelity forums!
> 
> I know this is pessimistic, but I've read a lot of these threads and this seems to be the theme to some of them. My marriage (24 years) seems to be much like yours without a Gabi of course. We have a really good marriage and relationship so I'm not sure why I am this pessimistic about your situation - so take it with a grain of salt.


my first instinct on that is im overreacting, being controlling, and why shouldnt she have friends of her own. Im thinking the better option than to scorch earth her side is to try and get myself included and then force myself to be out of my comfrot zone and a part of this part of her life. Im pretty sure she doesnt even realize this could be an issue or that Gabi might have bad intentions concious or not.

I should also include that we did as 2 family groups take a trip to the ny museum of modern art last fall. It was my idea for the trip(its an awsome place, ive been 4 times) and everyone did follow through. Gabi and i did have plenty of interactions but nothing personal or direct. It wasnt cold but it wasnt hey youre sweet and the husband of my BFF so lets get along and have fun.

I wonder what her husband jorge thinks of the two of them? Hes not the father of her son and they just patched up a recent seperation. Im a nerdy white guy though from a snobish town and hes a latin dude from bridgeport ct so im not sure he would be open to us chatting about it.


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## Taxman

Well, I have had a long-standing rule; NO SEPARATE VACATIONS. The only time I have managed to be away without her, is when I have been sent out of town on business. I took my son away to Vegas for a few days while I was on business, he got the Vegas social scene. The reason that we do not go on separate vacations? 

My in-laws did, as they really could not stand one another, and worked together, so a break was mandatory. (I never really trusted FIL on this, plus he would return from these vacations looking like a homeless person) and secondarily, what I do for a living; I see a lot of divorce, and this appears to be a recurrent theme in my infidelity cases; the spouse goes away with friends to where ever, and meets that ONS. They return from vacation frought with guilt, and tell their spouse they got laid while away. One woman did not even have a chance to open her bags. They were on the lawn in an hour, and her parents were called, she had no place to go. The divorce started at 9AM the following day. She called everyone in a fit of terror, only to be told that her husband had warned her, and he made his concerns known all throughout the planning stages of this week away. So, when his prediction came true, he was so incredibly prepared. She caught the whirlwind, and after six months, all she had left was the GF that she went on vacation with. Best line, "I can't believe he begrudged me my fun time", I responded, "If you just went on rides at Disney, then I would side with you, however, you took a ride on another man's ****, and your husband no longer wants to be on that ride."


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## nogoer

Taxman said:


> Well, I have had a long-standing rule; NO SEPARATE VACATIONS. The only time I have managed to be away without her, is when I have been sent out of town on business. I took my son away to Vegas for a few days while I was on business, he got the Vegas social scene. The reason that we do not go on separate vacations?
> 
> My in-laws did, as they really could not stand one another, and worked together, so a break was mandatory. (I never really trusted FIL on this, plus he would return from these vacations looking like a homeless person) and secondarily, what I do for a living; I see a lot of divorce, and this appears to be a recurrent theme in my infidelity cases; the spouse goes away with friends to where ever, and meets that ONS. They return from vacation frought with guilt, and tell their spouse they got laid while away. One woman did not even have a chance to open her bags. They were on the lawn in an hour, and her parents were called, she had no place to go. The divorce started at 9AM the following day. She called everyone in a fit of terror, only to be told that her husband had warned her, and he made his concerns known all throughout the planning stages of this week away. So, when his prediction came true, he was so incredibly prepared. She caught the whirlwind, and after six months, all she had left was the GF that she went on vacation with. Best line, "I can't believe he begrudged me my fun time", I responded, "If you just went on rides at Disney, then I would side with you, however, you took a ride on another man's ****, and your husband no longer wants to be on that ride."


 I do bills and see all the cell stuff and shes not disappearing on me at wierd times. we chat all day most days and she works at a sewing shop with all woman. Unless the girl nights are cheat nights and this week a culmination then this isnt happening. Her chats from sicily seem genuine and i really think the fact i reversed course and am now involved has removed the "well he doesnt care so i wont" and being gone has hit home. I feel better having gotten involved since i know what shes up to now.

None of this changes the Gabi situation though and it needing to be discussed at a later date.


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## SGr

nogoer said:


> Basically i was waiting and hoping she would think deeply about my side and opt not to go and maybe discuss us doing it together somehow another time.



If this is how you truly felt then you should have articulated this long before now. Not waiting till she's long gone.

You knew you would have to hold down the fort in her absence and by not speaking up in the beginning, you forfeit the right to whine about it.

You've just gotta eat it on this one. 

Sent from my BLA-A09 using Tapatalk


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## BigDigg

nogoer said:


> She knows im capable and normally not needy or selfish so i have done most of those things.


Nogoer - thanks for a heartfelt response and for showing the courage to stay on here and respond. I really applaud you for coming here and showing the basic introspection needed to even ask the questions and suffer the slings and arrows from the crowd. Shows your heart is in the right place. Stick around and really listen to some of these people...I think you could use some help.

So not trying to dump on you but you make statements like the one above and then give paragraph after paragraph of textbook needy behavior. I see a lot of troubling things:

- You blame this on anxiety but then say that it's really about her being thankful and thoughtful or your needs first. Are you so needy for validation that this is causing anxiety? Why do you feel you need special attention / recognition for doing something basic that any decent loving husband would do?
- It's healthy for your wife to have friends and occasionally get out without you. No idea if Gabi is a good or bad type friend but she's married at least and this trip is tied to a family function. Doesn't sound like a wild bachelorette type thing. Why do you think that Gabi doesn't want to include you? Is it your wife or Gabi who doesn't want you to tag along?
- You told us you apologized and tried to make things better then you immediately sent notice to her that you intend to talk about her friendship with Gabi when she get's back. This doesn't compute. Just more passive/aggressive stuff. Again, how does she feel now knowing you're unhappy and has to look forward to a uncomfortable (and potentially unreasonable) "talk" when she get's back?
- You tell us how "close" you two are and how you' are different than others here. Then you complain when your wife wants any reasonable space. There's a difference between "close" and "suffocating". Where are your friends? You never get out of the house on your own or have your own special interests?
- You are going to show her this thread? I mean, not a terrible idea I guess if genuine however it comes off as immature (See mom - look what I did! Don't ground me too bad!).

Women don't want husbands that act like dependents or another child in the house. In order to having a mutually loving relationship they must be able to respect you. They can't respect you when you're unable to manage basic communication and act out or throw ill-timed tantrums. 

Sorry again - i know your heart is in the right place and sorry about the anxiety issue. Therapy might be a great thing for you. But your very best bet here to salvage this is to just keep quiet, give space when she gets home, try to get to the root of why you behaved this way, and eventually have an adult-level discussion on how to manage this going forward.


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## MyRevelation

nogoer,

With how you responded to my last post, I have to say that I agree with Taxman and 55Z ... Gabi is TOXIC to your M and needs to be removed for not being a "friend of the marriage".

I originally had a bad feeling about this trip, but when you shared they've been going out of regular GNO's to bars and hiding their activities (i.e. the bullriding, etc.) from you, then it all came together. Look, middle aged married women have no business hanging out in bars without their husbands present ... PERIOD. They are a walking advertisement for infidelity, and with the current pharmaceutical advantages, most are very naive low hanging fruit for the experienced player.

... and brother, that is the voice of experience talking.

My W had 2 enabling ( each former OW) GFs ... and you can bet your ass based on what you've shared about Gabi and her recent separation and barroom activities, she has a history as a OW in her past ... THAT is why you are being excluded from their GNO's. Back to my W and her 2 enabling GFs ... they all went on a girls only vacation to a tropical setting, and my W wound up in a drunken ONS (possibly drugged). I found out within a week of their return, and insisted on PERMANENT NC with both friends before I would consider anything going forward. I simply had to know that I was the priority in her life. That was 11 years ago and they haven't been a part of our lives since, despite them having 20+ year histories at the time, compared to our 12 year M then.

Honestly, get Gabi out of both of your lives and see how much better your M becomes.

Please trust your gut and don't ignore the obvious red flags waving around your W and Gabi's relationship.


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## ABHale

nogoer said:


> I wouldnt take it that far or picture as such. We dont go out alot together and i undertsand the meet up for catch up dinner and or drinks. Its usually only a few hours and i handle dinner, which i normally do for the other 3 of us. I dont want to downplay it though because it's just never a oh why dont you join us this time kind fo thing. Still once a month or so isnt giving me the need her over you feeling. Outside of family gatherings, which are very regular on both sides Gabi is the only social life she takes which as ive explained im excluded from.


Is Gabi’s husband excluded as well?


----------



## ABHale

nogoer said:


> I do bills and see all the cell stuff and shes not disappearing on me at wierd times. we chat all day most days and she works at a sewing shop with all woman. Unless the girl nights are cheat nights and this week a culmination then this isnt happening. Her chats from sicily seem genuine and i really think the fact i reversed course and am now involved has removed the "well he doesnt care so i wont" and being gone has hit home. I feel better having gotten involved since i know what shes up to now.
> 
> None of this changes the Gabi situation though and it needing to be discussed at a later date.


This doesn’t mean that she can’t stray on this trip. 

I have read about on several different marriage sites. Especially the first time being away. The spouse isn’t ready for the attention they receive and get caught up in it. Then they cheat.


----------



## 3Xnocharm

Honestly, I feel like there is much overreaction about this Gabi. Its quite possible that her husband is a huge pain in her ass, so for her, getting out one on one with a girlfriend is an escape for her. I know when I want to hang out with my closest friends, I prefer it just be us girls.. no hidden agenda, no scoping out other men or other hanky panky. Just ladies enjoying the company of other ladies. Now if the two of them (or them and others) go out to bars, get plastered, and stay out til the wee hours of the morning, then THAT should be a red flag for concern. From what you have described, I am not getting the impression that this is the case with your wife and her friends. 

Geez folks, lighten up a little. OP's wife sounds like a decent woman.


----------



## Livvie

3Xnocharm said:


> Honestly, I feel like there is much overreaction about this Gabi. Its quite possible that her husband is a huge pain in her ass, so for her, getting out one on one with a girlfriend is an escape for her. I know when I want to hang out with my closest friends, I prefer it just be us girls.. no hidden agenda, no scoping out other men or other hanky panky. Just ladies enjoying the company of other ladies. Now if the two of them (or them and others) go out to bars, get plastered, and stay out til the wee hours of the morning, then THAT should be a red flag for concern. From what you have described, I am not getting the impression that this is the case with your wife and her friends.
> 
> Geez folks, lighten up a little. OP's wife sounds like a decent woman.


It wasn't isn't just the two of them. It's a family trip for the friend.


----------



## nogoer

3Xnocharm said:


> Honestly, I feel like there is much overreaction about this Gabi. Its quite possible that her husband is a huge pain in her ass, so for her, getting out one on one with a girlfriend is an escape for her. I know when I want to hang out with my closest friends, I prefer it just be us girls.. no hidden agenda, no scoping out other men or other hanky panky. Just ladies enjoying the company of other ladies. Now if the two of them (or them and others) go out to bars, get plastered, and stay out til the wee hours of the morning, then THAT should be a red flag for concern. From what you have described, I am not getting the impression that this is the case with your wife and her friends.
> 
> Geez folks, lighten up a little. OP's wife sounds like a decent woman.


yes this is true. She misses dinner, but is home after a few hours.


Im afraid all my emotions have really skewed my point of view and my actual relationship. I dont feel im needy or that i suffocate her. I dont control her or expect her to cater to me. We are capable of being apart and surviving just fine. I love her and she loves me and we enjoy spending time together as often as possible.

The trip and the desire to go threw me way off guard since its not normal for us. I wanted to be supportive so i eventually agreed. Ive had this unliked feeling from Gabi for years and that it was something against me. I got miffed when the trip got here and she still wanted to go without me. Once she was gone my anxiety reared and i became selfish and resentful over missing out on her happiness with her friend. Escape nights out are one thing, escape weeks out together are different. 

Im really trying to correct my wrong and make sure she enjoys the time she has left and convey im supportive. I have not ultimatumed her over Gabi or put fear into her over a storm to face once she returns. Im biding my time until it's the right time to let her know how i feel once shes home. I just dont know how long i can bottle them up once shes back especially since bottling them up is the root of the entire problem to start with.

I truly and seriously want to find a way to let this go. while shes gone it's still sort of twisting the knife but im finding outlets like here to avoid broaching any of that subject again while shes away. When shes back and its done and over it will be easier to relax and start letting it go. Once ive said my peice, let her scream at me if needed and we talk it out im hopiong to be able to put it all behind us.

As to what and how i approach the Gabi subject, i have no idea. Maybe therapy will help me find the right path on that. But i also need to hear from my wife her side of those visits and get honesty about Gabi's influence on her. I do believe the thoughts about Gabis marriage to be true. I dont think they have a close marriage and it's more a convenience of someone to sleep next to thing. So from Gabi's perspective she cherishes having my wife to get away with. Its just time Gabi knows that to get what she wants i have to give up what i want and then see if my wife can help us all find a compromise.


----------



## ABHale

personofinterest said:


> You still seem to expect her to do a lot of mind-reading. If you want things to improve, you are going to have to stop the passive hinting stuff and TALK directly to your wife.


You took this out of context. He wasn’t invited again and didn’t know anything about it until after.


----------



## ABHale

Evinrude58 said:


> No doubt, but he SHOULD have let her know his feelings on the matter, and then let her make her own decision. IF he had a wife that was a good person, when he told her that the trip would put them in a financial strain and that they had a trip PLANNED TOGETHER and that he would be really disappointed if they didn't have a vacation TOGETHER, she could have only come to the conclusion that she was being selfish and decided against it.
> 
> OP didn't do this. He DID NOT state his thoughts on the matter, and therefore needs to stuff the sandwich down and swallow. No good will come of him making more of this.
> 
> I do think it's a good idea that she find a way to repay the family for her own excursion.


I know I am assuming this but his wife already knew it was going to kill them financially and still asked to go. She knew the burden it was going to be in the family and still wanted to go.


----------



## ABHale

Was your wife and Gabi more then just friends in high school?

It sounds like Gabi is jealous of you. 

Also, why is Gabi’s husband picking your wife up at the airport??? She has been away for a week for the first time and you actually feel that your not welcomed there to pick her up. That you actually have to have “there blessing” to be there. No wonder you are having panic attacks. It’s no coincidence that they started around the same time your wife and Gabi reconnected.


----------



## Vinnydee

I am married 46 years and neither of us would even consider vacationing without the other. I read a good article today which said that we overestimate our desire to be sexual faithful compared to attraction to others. It went on to list things we may do to avoid cheating that have been proven not to work. Nearly half of married people are tempted to cheat at one time or another. More than half tempted end up cheating.

I was gone for a few months in the Army and my fiancé cheated on me. She ran into a guy who she was attracted to and who did all the right things to get her in bed like saying I would never find out. My second girlfriend cheated too and I was just gone for a month. Third time I got lucky since my former profession took me away for months at a time where my co-workers, male and female, cheated on their spouses. In fact, every boss I had over a 48 year period cheated on their spouses. I just retired from a company and was paid a large bonus because I knew that the owner cheated on her husband and kept my mouth shut about it.

I took my wife to Italy when she wanted to go. Guys all over the place flirting with her if I was not standing next to her. I am Italian too so I know how hot blooded we can be. Just saying that a person can get swept up in a foreign country and since they are so far away with no chance of their spouse finding out, may drink a little too much and be seduced. 

We are married for so long because we do not go out without the other unless it is for shopping and stuff like that. When I was gone my wife never went to clubs or bars. She says so herself that loneliness can make you do things you will regret in the morning. It happened to me. I was lonely, drinking and when a model in town for a photoshoot invited me to spend the night with her, I did. She kept telling me not to talk about my wife so much since I missed her. I know, sounds weird but I was lonely, very horny and needed what the girl was offering. Told my wife and she forgave me. Could not really take the high ground since she had a girlfriend.


----------



## notmyrealname4

@nogoer

I guess everything's pretty much done and dusted on the thread. But I do feel the need to chime in, 'cause I think you have taken a beating!

First, I *do* agree with everyone else that you should have stuck your finger out 6 months ago and said that you were not comfortable with your wife going to Italy without the family. HOWEVER, as has been stated upthread, you were actually in a no win situation from the start.

If you say "no, don't go", you're denying your wife a wonderful vacation; so that makes you a "selfish inconsiderate" spouse. Everyone knows this, including your wife. That's why you were passive-aggressive about it: "If I say "no", I'm a bad guy. So, I won't say anything, and hope that she realizes I really don't want her to go."

Kinda blew up on you, huh? But it's supposed to. You are passive aggressive. Your wife was _manipulative_. Not a good combination.

So, this one is water under the bridge. Be as congenial on the phone/texts as possible. Be warm and welcoming when she gets back. Do it for your own dignity. We are all selfish, everyone of us. Be magnanimous for how it makes you feel about you.

And, fwiw:

I think it's AWFUL for a married person to take a very special, one-of-a-kind trip like this without your spouse. As already stated by others, if you guys were some cosmopolitan couple who regularly vacationed all over the world...meh. But you're not. You're John and Jane Doe, average couple. Such memories should have been made together.

When you're married, your spouse is your best friend. You sleep eight hours, your workday (including showering, grooming, lunch, commuting) is another 10-12 hours. That leaves four hours for chores and eating dinner. Then you run errands etc. etc. on your weekends. So where is all this time left over to spend with friends over your spouse? In the precious free time that the average working class person has, you want to spend it with your spouse---if it's a loving relationship. Sure, a once-a-month get together with friends is great. But going out with friends all the time is a high school/college/single adult type of activity. Once you're married, that special free time belongs to your husband/wife.

$1000 is a small fortune to my husband and I. Many on TAM can't relate to this. I think $1000 to us is like $5000, or $10,000 to a lot of TAM'ers. The point is, for someone to spend it exclusively on themselves (without a strong enthusiastic A-okay from their partner), is really, really selfish. Again, I think it's manipulative to ask, "May I go to Europe with Gabi, the ticket is free, I just need $1000 for expenses?" If you say "no"; you're so stingy and selfish. And you're passive aggressive if you don't come out at once and say so.

I DO think your wife should have "read your mind". Iow, I think after years together, most married couples have a pretty good idea of what would hurt the other spouse. It's sly and manipulative to pretend that you have "no idea" a stunt like this would bother your husband.

Don't know what to think about Gabi or if this is something more nefarious in a possibly sexual way. I tend to think not. But, she doesn't strike me as overly considerate of what her requests/suggestions of your wife, do to affect you.


Hope this all works out for you in the end, nogoer. Perhaps a new chapter has started in your marriage where you are each a little more selfish and inconsiderate of what the other wants. I suppose that's tolerable to a point. Not acceptable if the kids have to suffer; ie. no vacation for you kids this year; mom and dad both spend the funds on individual vacations for themselves.

Good luck. Go out to a nice pizza place with the kids while she's gone; make a few low-budget memories of your own.


----------



## personofinterest

Again, I urge you not to become obsessed with her cheating just because the same old people think every woman is cheating.


----------



## Evinrude58

I don’t think she’s cheating either. But if she’s going out to bars and “having drinks” with OP’s wife while he stays home and cooks supper for the kids, and taking extended vacations without her husband with a wingwoman— let’s be honest—
What’s comes of that usually.

Op would do best by swallowing the sandwich and just being a good husband and doing his thing. Instead of the wife going out with Gabi, he should make a date with her.

If she leans toward going out with gabi more than going with her husband- THAT would be a bad sign.

So far there’s not a lot more than OP being mad she’s enjoying an expensive vaca without him, and ditching him for her gf...

Crying over spilled milk I’d say.


----------



## EleGirl

Evinrude58 said:


> I don’t think she’s cheating either. *But if she’s going out to bars and “having drinks” with OP’s wife while he stays home and cooks supper for the kids, and taking extended vacations without her husband with a wingwoman— let’s be honest—
> What’s comes of that usually.
> *


I know a lot of women do does these things and never cheat. I've done them and never cheated. So no, cheating is not the usual outcome of women doing things together.


Also, a one week vacation is not an 'extended vacation'. The term used is important because as this thread progresses, it seems that accusing his wife of infidelity and/or doing something wrong is becoming more the tone of things.


----------



## personofinterest

EleGirl said:


> Evinrude58 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don’t think she’s cheating either. *But if she’s going out to bars and “having drinks” with OP’s wife while he stays home and cooks supper for the kids, and taking extended vacations without her husband with a wingwoman— let’s be honest—
> What’s comes of that usually.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> I know a lot of women do does these things and never cheat. I've done them and never cheated. So no, cheating is not the usual outcome of women doing things together.
> 
> 
> Also, a one week vacation is not an 'extended vacation'. The term used is important because as this thread progresses, it seems that accusing his wife of infidelity and/or doing something wrong is becoming more the tone of things.
Click to expand...

THANK YOU

This cheating assumption is frankly insulting.


----------



## turnera

nogoer said:


> I didn't speak up
> 
> One night, when she should have taken the hint


Wow. Really? It's her job to be the 'mom' to ALL of you? To WATCH OUT for your hints? And you bring in YOUR insecurities and make your CHILDREN help you guilt their mom?

Really?


----------



## turnera

nogoer said:


> Yes we both work fulltime.
> 
> I help when asked and try to step in and help when i see its needed.


Wait, what? You BOTH work 40 hours per week, your kids are grown, yet you 'step in' and you 'HELP' when YOU think it's needed?

Are you kidding me?

So, 'household' chores are her responsibility and you only step in 'when needed' - because OTHERWISE, it is HER job since she is the female.

Do I have that right?


----------



## happyhusband0005

EleGirl said:


> I know a lot of women do does these things and never cheat. I've done them and never cheated. So no, cheating is not the usual outcome of women doing things together.
> 
> 
> Also, a one week vacation is not an 'extended vacation'. The term used is important because as this thread progresses, it seems that accusing his wife of infidelity and/or doing something wrong is becoming more the tone of things.


This is the one thing that kind of drives me nuts about a lot of the guys on TAM but after being here for a little while I get why based on their experience. But I know lots and lots of women who go out and hang with friends and don't cheat. My wife is out for dinner/drinks with friends right now planning a trip to London with friends. Last year I sent them to Vegas for her 40th. I've done ski trips all over with friends and never cheated, I even went on a trip to Thailand back before we got married and didn't cheat. 

I think the @nogoer has never experienced this and is a bit thrown by this whole situation that is totally and completely normal for many of us but very new and out of the norm for him. 

I think having strong friendships outside of a marriage is important, I have seen many codependent (for lack of a better word) marriages become resentful after the kids are gone and a couple hasn't nurtured any relationship to maintain some individuality and outside connection. For some people thats their comfort zone and are perfectly happy that way others need the outside friendships. There is no right or wrong it's just a personality thing.


----------



## ABHale

turnera said:


> Wait, what? You BOTH work 40 hours per week, your kids are grown, yet you 'step in' and you 'HELP' when YOU think it's needed?
> 
> Are you kidding me?
> 
> So, 'household' chores are her responsibility and you only step in 'when needed' - because OTHERWISE, it is HER job since she is the female.
> 
> Do I have that right?


I think you need to read read this post you pulled this from. 

He does his part of the chores then helps out where needed as well.

He does all the cooking and outdoor work. Then helps his 21 year old daughter with the laundry when she needs the help. His wife does the other cleaning in the house and he helps her with it was well. 

What else do you want of him?


----------



## turnera

ABHale said:


> I think you need to read read this post you pulled this from.
> 
> He does his part of the chores then helps out where needed as well.
> 
> He does all the cooking and outdoor work. Then helps his 21 year old daughter with the laundry when she needs the help. His wife does the other cleaning in the house and he helps her with it was well.
> 
> What else do you want of him?


Pffft. Seriously? Cooking and outdoor work = 45 minutes a day. Who's doing the laundry? Dishes? Mopping? Cleaning showers and tubs? Vacuuming? Dusting? Changing filters? Vacuuming air filters in ceilings? Washing windows/doors? Putting away laundry. Moving dirty laundry to wash room? Hanging up clean clothes? Filing papers? Shredding papers? Recycling? Paying bills? Responding to mail? Contacting people for appointments/doctors/taxes/neighborhood organizations/etc.?
Buying new clothes/linens/curtains/ etc. as they need to be replaced? 

I could go on, there are many MORE things that need to be taken care of that the wife usually steps up to make sure things are done.


----------



## ABHale

turnera said:


> Pffft. Seriously? Cooking and outdoor work = 45 minutes a day. Who's doing the laundry? Dishes? Mopping? Cleaning showers and tubs? Vacuuming? Dusting? Changing filters? Vacuuming air filters in ceilings? Washing windows/doors? Putting away laundry. Moving dirty laundry to wash room? Hanging up clean clothes? Filing papers? Shredding papers? Recycling? Paying bills? Responding to mail? Contacting people for appointments/doctors/taxes/neighborhood organizations/etc.?
> Buying new clothes/linens/curtains/ etc. as they need to be replaced?
> 
> I could go on, there are many MORE things that need to be taken care of that the wife usually steps up to make sure things are done.


From what I read the family shares it together. Except for the youngest.


----------



## turnera

happyhusband0005 said:


> This is the one thing that kind of drives me nuts about a lot of the guys on TAM but after being here for a little while I get why based on their experience. But I know lots and lots of women who go out and hang with friends and don't cheat. My wife is out for dinner/drinks with friends right now planning a trip to London with friends. Last year I sent them to Vegas for her 40th. I've done ski trips all over with friends and never cheated, I even went on a trip to Thailand back before we got married and didn't cheat.
> 
> I think the @nogoer has never experienced this and is a bit thrown by this whole situation that is totally and completely normal for many of us but very new and out of the norm for him.
> 
> I think having strong friendships outside of a marriage is important, I have seen many codependent (for lack of a better word) marriages become resentful after the kids are gone and a couple hasn't nurtured any relationship to maintain some individuality and outside connection. For some people thats their comfort zone and are perfectly happy that way others need the outside friendships. There is no right or wrong it's just a personality thing.


And happyhusband, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that YOUR wife is CRAZY into you, right? Why? Because you treat her as an EQUAL and not only do you see that, but you TRUST her and ENCOURAGE her to be herself away from you. So much so that, when she comes home, you are THE one thing she can't get wait to get hold of. And she f*cks your brains out.


----------



## musiclover

She goes away one week when you've been married how long ? Get a grip. 

If you went fishing with your biddies for a week would this be an issue ? 

I remember when my kids were young all I wanted was a break from it all. Didn't read all the posts, but God how good it would be just to say have fun. 

Deal with the issues when she gets home


----------



## turnera

ABHale said:


> From what I read the family shares it together. Except for the youngest.


Please show me. Cos I didn't find that - at all.


----------



## turnera

ABHale said:


> I think you need to read read this post you pulled this from.
> 
> He does his part of the chores then helps out where needed as well.
> 
> He does all the cooking and outdoor work.





> He says: I do all the cooking as well as the normal gender role stuff. She does the laundry and cleaning


In other words, 85% of all the other work is done by the wife.


----------



## ABHale

musiclover said:


> She goes away one week when you've been married how long ? Get a grip.
> 
> If you went fishing with your biddies for a week would this be an issue ?
> 
> I remember when my kids were young all I wanted was a break from it all. Didn't read all the posts, but God how good it would be just to say have fun.
> 
> Deal with the issues when she gets home


Let’s see out of the blue and never talked about before. 

Yes, OP has always wanted to take a week at a working ranch but hasn’t do to finances. 

Him and his wife have actually talked about going there together in the future. 

She gets asked to go by a friend that excludes OP from everything. 

Then his wife drained the family vacation savings to go with the toxic friend. 

Yea no problem. Go have fun. Do what ever makes you happy. 

Isn’t this the same attitude that cheaters have? 

And people wonder why cheating has been brought up. Because it’s the same thing, the thinking that I have the right to be happy and have fun no matter the cost.


----------



## ABHale

turnera said:


> In other words, 85% of all the other work is done by the wife.


He goes on to say that his 21 year old does the laundry and he helps her with it.


----------



## ABHale

She does the laundry and cleaning, but our 21 yr old is expected to chip in of her own volition so cleaning and laundry are a minimal chore. The 21yr is in college but home most of the week and is able to stay on top of chores, especially laundry. I help when asked and try to step in and help when i see its needed. Really we both feel the other still does too much but are both comfortable with the load we do and confident in getting help when asked for.

The part I am referring too.


----------



## BruceBanner

musiclover said:


> She goes away one week when you've been married how long ? Get a grip.
> 
> If you went fishing with your biddies for a week would this be an issue ?
> 
> I remember when my kids were young all I wanted was a break from it all. Didn't read all the posts, but God how good it would be just to say have fun.
> 
> Deal with the issues when she gets home


Those two things are not even remotely comparable. Since when the **** does fishing cost anywhere near as much as a Sicilian vacation (depending on where you live.)?


----------



## musiclover

ABHale said:


> Let’s see out of the blue and never talked about before.
> 
> Yes, OP has always wanted to take a week at a working ranch but hasn’t do to finances.
> 
> Him and his wife have actually talked about going there together in the future.
> 
> She gets asked to go by a friend that excludes OP from everything.
> 
> Then his wife drained the family vacation savings to go with the toxic friend.
> 
> Yea no problem. Go have fun. Do what ever makes you happy.
> 
> Isn’t this the same attitude that cheaters have?
> 
> And people wonder why cheating has been brought up. Because it’s the same thing, the thinking that I have the right to be happy and have fun no matter the cost.


She goes away for 7 days of their entire marriage and she's cheating and draining finances. 

For the love of God, seriously.


----------



## musiclover

BruceBanner said:


> Those two things are not even remotely comparable. Since when the **** does fishing cost anywhere near as much as a Sicilian vacation (depending on where you live.)?


Does it matter ?? My ex went on shark fishing trips every year and I didn't go anywhere. I let him go and didn't act like a baby about it


----------



## musiclover

BruceBanner said:


> Those two things are not even remotely comparable. Since when the **** does fishing cost anywhere near as much as a Sicilian vacation (depending on where you live.)?


My ex went on fishing excursions to Montauk, wasn't cheap. And he went year after year. So yea if I got the invite I would go too.


----------



## Rubix Cubed

musiclover said:


> She goes away for 7 days of their entire marriage and she's cheating and draining finances.
> 
> For the love of God, seriously.


 @musiclover
The OP said she drained the finances. Do you doubt his word?

@the kneejerk responders
What the hell is so hard about reading a thread before you comment. Seems like it's becoming a trend not to. A third of the comments here are incongruous with the OP's story. It really detracts from helping the OP when he or anyone has to explain or quote what's already in the thread over and over.


----------



## musiclover

Rubix Cubed said:


> @musiclover
> The OP said she drained the finances. Do you doubt his word?
> 
> @the kneejerk responders
> What the hell is so hard about reading a thread before you comment. Seems like it's becoming a trend not to. A third of the comments here are incongruous with the OP's story. It really detracts from helping the OP when he or anyone has to explain or quote what's already in the thread over and over.


I don't doubt his word. But he should haven spoken up months ago. Really, this isn't that difficult . That's on him, not her.


----------



## Evinrude58

EleGirl said:


> I know a lot of women do does these things and never cheat. I've done them and never cheated. So no, cheating is not the usual outcome of women doing things together.
> 
> 
> Also, a one week vacation is not an 'extended vacation'. The term used is important because as this thread progresses, it seems that accusing his wife of infidelity and/or doing something wrong is becoming more the tone of things.


Most married women don’t go out for drinks for several hours at bars after work with their ladyfriends in my humble experience. They are at home doing the family thing. I personally wouldn’t want my wife at a bar. Drinks lower inhibitions, do they not?


As the thread progresses, it’s becoming more clear why the OP seems overly peeved at his wife and unsupportive of her trip.

He’s concerned this friend is driving a wedge between him and his wife, because he feels excluded.
Is he? 
0r is he paranoid?

It’s one or the other.
My take is that it’s not the money she’s spending that is the main problem in his mind.
It’s that his wife is making him feel he isn’t as important to her as he once was.

One thing is for certain, he has no reason to believe she is unfaithful. 
He has no reason to be overly upset that she went on a trip without him when he didn’t express his true feelings.
And he shouldn’t upset his wife like he’s doing. He needs to calm down and talk to his wife when he’s not so upset about this.

If she has been a good wife to him up until now, she should be treated like a good wife. 
Is she acting like one presently? I don’t know.
I don’t know their books or how far in the hike the trip is putting them.

I will admit that a week long trip fishing or hunting is not something I wouldn’t expect my wife to allow. But I wouldn’t use family funds to do it. I’d use side money I made in my spare time.

Jmo.


----------



## musiclover

Could this be taken at face value. 

Oh friend asked me to go on trip my husband can't go.

Oh monies kind of tight let me check with my husband.

Awesome,he said I should go and have fun .

Then 6 months later it's all blown out of proportion because husband didn't really want her to go but she's supposed to be a mind reader and figure that out. 

Ridiculous


----------



## Rubix Cubed

Does anybody think that maybe she should have possessed enough consideration for her husband that he didn't have to spell it out to her in big block letters(even though he likely should have)? It's mind reading when a man expects it, but it's a given absolute when a woman expects it.
It seems many are operating on the premise that she shouldn't have to think about her actions, have fiscal responsibility, or even consider for one second how her husband feels. In the words of Mike Tyson "that's a load of Bullthit."

And if you do go down the cheating rabbit hole (which I don't think is necessary) look into Gabi's bil's friend, who's along on the trip, hell, that might be Gabi's OM for that matter.


----------



## musiclover

I don't know. I trusted my husband. If he went fishing for a week and it drained the bank a bit I didn't care. I wanted him to have fun. 

So big deal. She went away for 8 days. If you trust her then you should be happy for her. 

I didn't read all the comments so ifs she's a cheater I take back what I said


----------



## Evinrude58

Op,
How many times in the last 6 months has she went out for drinks with the gabi friend? Ballpark...
If it’s twice, you don’t have a problem. 3 times, unlikely. If it’s more than 6 and getting more frequent all the time, she’s building a life that’s different from the last several years. 

Before you start worrying about a wedge being driven, make sure the tools are being used.

Has gabi suddenly become a more important friend than you? Seems that spending a week in another country with an acquaintance would be odd.

It’s highly unlikely in my opinion that going to Sicily where your wife has never been is anything but a fun trip with a friend. 

Whether the friend is good for the marriage is a separate issue from the trip...


----------



## sokillme

I don't think either my wife or I would even consider this. Maybe a guy or girls weekend but even then not some where that has the potential for us to go. But both of us would say something. Not sure why we would have to because it seems kind of obvious that this is not how we roll. I don't believe in week long vacations without the spouse, but more importantly I don't have any desire to.


----------



## sokillme

personofinterest said:


> THANK YOU
> 
> This cheating assumption is frankly insulting.


Insulting? Have you read these boards? People cheat all the time. Maybe not assume cheating but I would keep my eyes open. It's not insulting in this day and age.


----------



## sokillme

Rubix Cubed said:


> Does anybody think that maybe she should have possessed enough consideration for her husband that he didn't have to spell it out to her in big block letters(even though he likely should have)? It's mind reading when a man expects it, but it's a given absolute when a woman expects it.
> It seems many are operating on the premise that she shouldn't have to think about her actions, have fiscal responsibility, or even consider for one second how her husband feels. In the words of Mike Tyson "that's a load of Bullthit."
> 
> And if you do go down the cheating rabbit hole (which I don't think is necessary) look into Gabi's bil's friend, who's along on the trip, hell, that might be Gabi's OM for that matter.


Maybe but unfortunately some people are not like that. It's hard to be married to people like that though. Maybe she wanted to go more then she cared what he thought though anyway. She probably thinks (with her friends encouragement) he'll get over it. 

For him though it should have been like this. 

Wife: I want to go on trip blah blah blah.
Husband: Nah.

I mean if my wife asked me this I would look at her like she had 2 heads. But she would never ask, we are just too close to want to vacation with anyone else. 

Anyway if she sulked then he would know where he stood, now he really has no recourse, but a hell of a lot of resentment. 

Personally I wouldn't even ask because I am smart enough to know human nature. Plus I know my wife and would care that it would hurt her. Most marriages described under his circumstances (money/talked about going) are going to have a hard time with something like this. Also I would be kind of insulted my wife didn't want to save a trip like that to have with me. 

This will probably always be a point of resentment for him now. She will have had a great trip. In the end she will see if it was worth it.


----------



## sokillme

musiclover said:


> I don't know. I trusted my husband. If he went fishing for a week and it drained the bank a bit I didn't care. I wanted him to have fun.
> 
> So big deal. She went away for 8 days. If you trust her then you should be happy for her.
> 
> I didn't read all the comments so ifs she's a cheater I take back what I said


What if you said YOU wanted to go fishing and he said, nah we can't afford it, we will go some other time. Only to say a few months later, I want to go fishing with my friends instead and we can afford it because we can use the half of the money we already saving to just pay for me. I doubt you would feel so happy. 

He should go to Vegas for a week with a guy friend, with the second half of the money they will save. Only fair right? 

Personally it's not the fear of cheating that I think is a big deal, it's the fact she was not bonded enough emotionally with him to know this would hurt him. Or maybe worse she wanted to go on the trip more then she cared about that. I personally think a spouse should have a good enough feel to know whether to ask or not. Maybe for some it wouldn't be a big deal, but if it would be you would think being married to someone 10 years you would have an idea.


----------



## ABHale

musiclover said:


> She goes away for 7 days of their entire marriage and she's cheating and draining finances.
> 
> For the love of God, seriously.


Never said she is cheating but spouse have in this situation. 

Why is it ok that she put the family in a financial bind? Because by what OP has said, he is the one staying home while is wife has been going out with her friend.


----------



## ABHale

musiclover said:


> I don't know. I trusted my husband. If he went fishing for a week and it drained the bank a bit I didn't care. I wanted him to have fun.
> 
> So big deal. She went away for 8 days. If you trust her then you should be happy for her.
> 
> I didn't read all the comments so ifs she's a cheater I take back what I said


I can understand draining a little for a individual trip. His wife depleted their savings for the airfare.

Don’t know if she cheated. More then likely not. But one never knows. But when there is a discount that has never been there before it could be the reason for it.


----------



## ABHale

musiclover said:


> Does it matter ?? My ex went on shark fishing trips every year and I didn't go anywhere. I let him go and didn't act like a baby about it


He is your ex now, so his trips and other things destroyed the relationship.


----------



## personofinterest

musiclover said:


> Could this be taken at face value.
> 
> Oh friend asked me to go on trip my husband can't go.
> 
> Oh monies kind of tight let me check with my husband.
> 
> Awesome,he said I should go and have fun .
> 
> Then 6 months later it's all blown out of proportion because husband didn't really want her to go but she's supposed to be a mind reader and figure that out.
> 
> Ridiculous


In a forum littered with men who still nurse their betrayal and/or dint like their wives, this is how it goes.


----------



## ABHale

musiclover said:


> My ex went on fishing excursions to Montauk, wasn't cheap. And he went year after year. So yea if I got the invite I would go too.


You had every right to in your circumstances. 

Sorry you never got the chance. 

But your circumstances were different then OP’s and his wife. He has been staying home with the teenagers while his wife parties with the gf for the past 2 to 3 years. He never gets invited to join them. Then a few times that OP was going to be there, the gf backs out of going for one reason or another. Something is not right with the wife and gf relationship.


----------



## ABHale

musiclover said:


> I don't doubt his word. But he should haven spoken up months ago. Really, this isn't that difficult . That's on him, not her.


And if he did months ago he would of been labeled controlling, jealous, insecure, mean and the list goes on. The threads are full of wives saying so.


----------



## ABHale

musiclover said:


> Could this be taken at face value.
> 
> Oh friend asked me to go on trip my husband can't go.
> 
> Oh monies kind of tight let me check with my husband.
> 
> Awesome,he said I should go and have fun .
> 
> Then 6 months later it's all blown out of proportion because husband didn't really want her to go but she's supposed to be a mind reader and figure that out.
> 
> Ridiculous


I believe the real issue is the friend she is with. OP brought this up already. The fact that he feels threatened by the gf for some reason is what has caused this. He has good reasons for his feelings as well if you read what he has written about the gf.


----------



## ABHale

I honestly wouldn’t put it past the gf to push his wife into doing something she would never do on her own. Especially if her marriage is as op describes.


----------



## personofinterest

ABHale said:


> I honestly wouldn’t put it past the gf to push his wife into doing something she would never do on her own. Especially if her marriage is as op describes.


Now we are just getting ridiculous in our projection...


----------



## She'sStillGotIt

Rubix Cubed said:


> Does anybody think that maybe she should have possessed enough consideration for her husband that he didn't have to spell it out to her in big block letters(even though he likely should have)?


No, I don't. She did *nothing* wrong with respect to that trip. 

Jesus, in just reading the last few pages, I'm amazed at the *ridiculous* accusations being thrown out there by the men about how her after-work drinks will lead her to lowered inhibitions and how she shouldn't be allowed to go out for girl's nights out and should be home for 'family time' instead, and how she's the devil incarnate and likely cheating on the OP, and blah blah blah. 

The level of *SHEER* paranoia in this thread is just way off the charts. 

Bottom line: if the OP didn't have the balls to whine to her *6 months ago *about how "unfair" he and their self-entitled daughter seem to think this trip was, then they shouldn't be acting like a couple of self-indulged spoiled little brats about it NOW. Like I said, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.


----------



## personofinterest

She'sStillGotIt said:


> Rubix Cubed said:
> 
> 
> 
> Does anybody think that maybe she should have possessed enough consideration for her husband that he didn't have to spell it out to her in big block letters(even though he likely should have)?
> 
> 
> 
> No, I don't. She did *nothing* wrong with respect to that trip.
> 
> Jesus, in just reading the last few pages, I'm amazed at the *ridiculous* accusations being thrown out there by the men about how her after-work drinks will lead her to lowered inhibitions and how she shouldn't be allowed to go out for girl's nights out and should be home for 'family time' instead, and how she's the devil incarnate and likely cheating on the OP, and blah blah blah.
> 
> The level of *SHEER* paranoia in this thread is just way off the charts.
> 
> Bottom line: if the OP didn't have the balls to whine to her *6 months ago *about how "unfair" he and their self-entitled daughter seem to think this trip was, then they shouldn't be acting like a couple of self-indulged spoiled little brats about it NOW. Like I said, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
Click to expand...

Pretty much


----------



## Blondilocks

Two friends getting together for dinner and drinks once a month isn't too much to ask of a marriage. When one spouse wants to tag along, then it becomes a couple on a date with a third wheel. Women view husbands who do this as pathetic.

Gabi is the only friend his wife socializes with and he doesn't have any friends except his wife. Yes, he's hurt that his wife wants to get out once in awhile without him and is jealous of Gabi. But, he needs to reign in these insecurities and jealousies before he drives his wife away. Extended families are fun to socialize with, but even they can get on your very last nerve and having a friend to laugh with can save your sanity as well as your marriage.

I hope he doesn't make a big deal out of her one friend. He doesn't want his wife to start feeling isolated in the marriage.

Perhaps, his wife needed this week away to save her sanity which in turn can save the marriage. The fact that he is going to go to therapy proves that even he thinks something is amiss in their dynamic.


----------



## MattMatt

personofinterest said:


> In a forum littered with men who still nurse their betrayal and/or dint like their wives, this is how it goes.


Gosh! A relationship website (with a Coping With Infidelity sub-forum) where men *and* women are still smarting over how their ex cheated on them or abused them and their own kids?

Who'd have thought it?


----------



## VermiciousKnid

Arrange a boys' trip to Vegas with some buddies after she gets back. You'll feel better. If you don't have any boys to go, let me know, I'll go to Vegas with you. I promise you'll have the time of your life. I do Vegas well. If my wife was going off to Sicily with a friend on vacation I'd be cool with it but no way I'd sit at home on my hands. I'd schedule two kinds of fun for that week. Fun with the kids, then arrange someone to watch them and schedule grown-up fun with my friends. Make it something epic. I vote Vegas trip but that's me.


----------



## personofinterest

MattMatt said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> In a forum littered with men who still nurse their betrayal and/or dint like their wives, this is how it goes.
> 
> 
> 
> Gosh! A relationship website (with a Coping With Infidelity sub-forum) where men *and* women are still smarting over how their ex cheated on them or abused them and their own kids?
> 
> Who'd have thought it? <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)" ></a>
Click to expand...

Difference between hurting and projection-driven witch hunt.

I've been betrayed too. I dont see a demon under every doily.


----------



## personofinterest

VermiciousKnid said:


> Arrange a boys' trip to Vegas with some buddies after she gets back. You'll feel better. If you don't have any boys to go, let me know, I'll go to Vegas with you. I promise you'll have the time of your life. I do Vegas well.


Aaaaaand now we bring out the junior high tit for tat....


----------



## MattMatt

personofinterest said:


> Now we are just getting ridiculous in our projection...


It's a point of view that you do not agree with.

However, on TAM there have been a number of stories which started out: "My husband/wife is not cheating on me. But he/she has this toxic friend and I feel there's something a bit off. But they'd never cheat on me! I'm certain!"

And 20, 30 pages later: "I was wrong! He/she is cheating on me!"

Cynicism is born out of bitter experience.


----------



## VermiciousKnid

personofinterest said:


> Aaaaaand now we bring out the junior high tit for tat....


...and this would be you admitting that there is tat. You don't want to go here with me. I'm an attorney and I'll dissect your every word to the point you're in tears. You've abused enough posters on this thread. It won't work with me.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Blondilocks said:


> Two friends getting together for dinner and drinks once a month isn't too much to ask of a marriage. When one spouse wants to tag along, then it becomes a couple on a date with a third wheel. Women view husbands who do this as pathetic.
> 
> Gabi is the only friend his wife socializes with and he doesn't have any friends except his wife. Yes, he's hurt that his wife wants to get out once in awhile without him and is jealous of Gabi. But, he needs to reign in these insecurities and jealousies before he drives his wife away. Extended families are fun to socialize with, but even they can get on your very last nerve and having a friend to laugh with can save your sanity as well as your marriage.
> 
> I hope he doesn't make a big deal out of her one friend. He doesn't want his wife to start feeling isolated in the marriage.
> 
> Perhaps, his wife needed this week away to save her sanity which in turn can save the marriage. The fact that he is going to go to therapy proves that even he thinks something is amiss in their dynamic.


It is not even healthy to have your whole social life revolve around your family for most people. The answer to his not having a social life outside of the marriage is for him to get one, not to go control freak on his wife.


----------



## personofinterest

VermiciousKnid said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aaaaaand now we bring out the junior high tit for tat....
> 
> 
> 
> ...and this would be you admitting that there is tat. You don't want to go here with me. I'm an attorney and I'll dissect your every word to the point you're in tears. You've abused enough posters on this thread. It won't work with me.
Click to expand...

Shudders in fear

Go back to the tanning bad


----------



## VermiciousKnid

MattMatt said:


> It's a point of view that you do not agree with.
> 
> However, on TAM there have been a number of stories which started out: "My husband/wife is not cheating on me. But he/she has this toxic friend and I feel there's something a bit off. But they'd never cheat on me! I'm certain!"
> 
> And 20, 30 pages later: "I was wrong! He/she is cheating on me!"
> 
> Cynicism is born out of bitter experience.


I really like this board but I do believe that when posters change their scope from offering their opinions/advice to the OP's and instead start critiquing other posters' advice that a thread then ventures into a negative place. I'm glad you're stepping in on this one, it's venturing into a total t/j and not useful to the OP.


----------



## VermiciousKnid

personofinterest said:


> Shudders in fear
> 
> Go back to the tanning bad


I knew that would end it.


----------



## happyhusband0005

Evinrude58 said:


> Most married women don’t go out for drinks for several hours at bars after work with their ladyfriends in my humble experience. They are at home doing the family thing. I personally wouldn’t want my wife at a bar. Drinks lower inhibitions, do they not?
> 
> 
> As the thread progresses, it’s becoming more clear why the OP seems overly peeved at his wife and unsupportive of her trip.
> 
> He’s concerned this friend is driving a wedge between him and his wife, because he feels excluded.
> Is he?
> 0r is he paranoid? *I don't think it's either I think he is probably socially awkward and his negative feelings even jealousy of the friend makes it difficult for him to connect with her. Also sometimes people, women especially, just need the me time it's just a personality difference.*
> 
> It’s one or the other.
> My take is that it’s not the money she’s spending that is the main problem in his mind.
> It’s that his wife is making him feel he isn’t as important to her as he once was. *This is a communication breakdown but maybe she has just begun feeling the need for outside friendship and the me time, this is pretty normal in a long relationship.
> *
> One thing is for certain, he has no reason to believe she is unfaithful.
> He has no reason to be overly upset that she went on a trip without him when he didn’t express his true feelings.
> And he shouldn’t upset his wife like he’s doing. He needs to calm down and talk to his wife when he’s not so upset about this. *I think once she gets back, after some initial FOMO feelings and jealousy he will hear from her she wished multiple times he had been there but it was a great trip and he will find more positive feelings towards her having a fun experience. I think it's a new thing that he has just never dealt with. I say this because he does seem to really love his wife so they will talk it out and he'll feel much better.*
> 
> If she has been a good wife to him up until now, she should be treated like a good wife.
> Is she acting like one presently? I don’t know.
> I don’t know their books or how far in the hike the trip is putting them.
> 
> I will admit that a week long trip fishing or hunting is not something I wouldn’t expect my wife to allow. But I wouldn’t use family funds to do it. I’d use side money I made in my spare time.
> 
> Jmo.


I think in all this will all end up being a positive thing. I think @nogoer has learned to discuss his feelings and not expect his wife to know how he will feel about it when he is saying something different than his true feelings. I also think/hope he will use this as motivation to get out there and be more social as his wife is clearly looking for more of that and she would probably appreciate more fun going out with him and friends.


----------



## NobodySpecial

MattMatt said:


> It's a point of view that you do not agree with.
> 
> However, on TAM there have been a number of stories which started out: "My husband/wife is not cheating on me. But he/she has this toxic friend and I feel there's something a bit off. But they'd never cheat on me! I'm certain!"
> 
> And 20, 30 pages later: "I was wrong! He/she is cheating on me!"
> 
> Cynicism is born out of bitter experience.


Yah. But. There is also the element of being a hammer makes everything look like a nail. I have never really understood trying to control a spouse's behavior to eliminate the risk of cheating. If you married a non-grown up who cannot take responsibility for their own actions and choices that seems to be a bigger root problem than whether or not they have gotten around to cheating yet. If you HAVE married a grown up who takes responsibility, this exercise in control can have no good outcome.


----------



## turnera

MyRevelation said:


> nogoer,
> 
> With how you responded to my last post, I have to say that I agree with Taxman and 55Z ... Gabi is TOXIC to your M and needs to be removed for not being a "friend of the marriage".


I hear what you're saying, BUT for him to simply say I want Gabi gone, his wife will just say why should I. She's getting something out of this friendship that she's not getting from her marriage. What is he doing about that?


----------



## personofinterest

VermiciousKnid said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shudders in fear
> 
> Go back to the tanning bad
> 
> 
> 
> I knew that would end it.
Click to expand...

Honestly, I wouldnt consider a week long trip without my husband. I dont do girls nights out unless you count a ladies' fellowship at church. I asked my hubby to accompany me when I go on a work trip in a few months so we could stay an extra night and make a trip of it.

But this OP said NOTHING negative to his wife, expecting her to read his mind, until she was already gone.

Assuming she is cheating without out evidence is not helpful. Suggesting a "punishment trip" is not helpful.

And no....the sad vigilante lawyer from a few years ago didnt scare me, and neither do you.


----------



## Blondilocks

VermiciousKnid said:


> I knew that would end it.


:rofl::rofl::rofl: You have quite the sense of humor.


----------



## personofinterest

Blondilocks said:


> VermiciousKnid said:
> 
> 
> 
> I knew that would end it.
> 
> 
> 
> <a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/rofl.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Rofl" ></a><a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/rofl.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Rofl" ></a><a href="http://talkaboutmarriage.com/images/smilies/rofl.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Rofl" ></a> You have quite the sense of humor.
Click to expand...

It's all that extra tanning, surfing the dark web, and doxing lol


----------



## turnera

personofinterest said:


> Aaaaaand now we bring out the junior high tit for tat....


Not necessarily. It makes sense that, if he's jealous she got to go on a great trip, he should schedule a great trip for himself. Psychologically, it would help him AND the relationship. 

Did I see somewhere that OP has no friends? To me, THAT is the real issue here. It's unattractive to her and unhealthy. OP, read the book Hold On To Your N.U.T.s.


----------



## MattMatt

Moderator notice:

OK, folks. Let's keep the threadjacking to a minimum, please.


----------



## personofinterest

turnera said:


> personofinterest said:
> 
> 
> 
> Aaaaaand now we bring out the junior high tit for tat....
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily. It makes sense that, if he's jealous she got to go on a great trip, he should schedule a great trip for himself. Psychologically, it would help him AND the relationship.
> 
> Did I see somewhere that OP has no friends? To me, THAT is the real issue here. It's unattractive to her and unhealthy. OP, read the book Hold On To Your N.U.T.s.
Click to expand...

That does make sense. 

Yes, I think having zero friends probably makes OP feel isolated, and it puts undue pressure on his wife.

It's a fairly good assessment to say this Gabi person is not the wisest choice of friend.

I just dont think a shrewy friend means his wife is Banging the Sicilian soccer team.


----------



## NobodySpecial

turnera said:


> Not necessarily. It makes sense that, if he's jealous she got to go on a great trip, he should schedule a great trip for himself. Psychologically, it would help him AND the relationship.
> 
> Did I see somewhere that OP has no friends? To me, THAT is the real issue here. It's unattractive to her and unhealthy. OP, read the book Hold On To Your N.U.T.s.


Yeah, if it were about revenge, that would clearly be unproductive. But practicing taking care of his own needs in this way, without relying on his wife for his social life, would be a Good Thing.


----------



## BigDigg

turnera said:


> And happyhusband, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that YOUR wife is CRAZY into you, right? Why? Because you treat her as an EQUAL and not only do you see that, but you TRUST her and ENCOURAGE her to be herself away from you. So much so that, when she comes home, you are THE one thing she can't get wait to get hold of. And she f*cks your brains out.


I love this and totally my experience. I personally *LOVE* girls nights and letting my wife go out with her friends. I totally trust her and I know she appreciates the ability to get out and away and remember who she was before kids and family and life consumed everything. I know how important it is for me so I'm thrilled to extend to her with no conditions attached. Selfishly I love it too since I can do whatever I want that night and relax my own way.

Typical 'girls night' in my house: 5-6pm comes around and I kiss her, tell her to have a great time and not worry about a thing and stay out as late as she wants. I take the kids out for a daddy dinner wherever they want. We come home, find a movie and camp out on the floor in PJ's with snacks. Movie over and I get them ready for bed and tuck in. Come downstairs, crack open a craft beer (or two ) and put in some cliche manly-type movie (Dirty Dozen? Scarface?) that my wife has zero interest in. Or I do anything I want - my free time. By about 10-11pm if the wife is still out her friends are texting me telling me that my wife misses me and be ready. When she comes home 9 times out of 10 she's in great spirits (never drunk - she's not like that - just happy) and i'd have to pry her off me with a crowbar.

Such a blessing these 'girls nights' are...


----------



## NobodySpecial

Rubix Cubed said:


> @musiclover
> The OP said she drained the finances. Do you doubt his word?


I guess I took this as a little bit of hyperbole. It sounds like the way a person would say it if they were already bitter. It is certainly a legit concern. Had he addressed it at the time with something like, wow what a great opportunity. What do we think we need to cut out of the budget? Or, wow what a great opportunity. But it will take funds from our planned trip which is a pretty hard sell for me and daughter. Both pretty reasonable. Where he is now, I can't see it any better than lesson learned. Next time, voice objections, not wait for her to read minds. But it seems he gets that.


----------



## personofinterest

"Where he is now, I can't see it any better than lesson learned. Next time, voice objections, not wait for her to read minds. But it seems he gets that."

I agree. I think he gets that and the horse is dead.

So why beat it with the typical affair hammer? The OP seemed in a good, rational place with his update. Winding him back up will likely not benefit his marriage.


----------



## ABHale

personofinterest said:


> Now we are just getting ridiculous in our projection...


Why? I never said the wife would give in. If she loves her husband she won’t. There are many toxic friends that do this. 

How about the threads that say just what I posted. 

“My wife came home today and wants a open marriage. She has been talking with her friend at work that is in one.”

The fact that this friend shuns OP like the plague only reinforces my view point. 

My wife has never had any toxic friends, well none that she kept around after they said something about me. Only her mom and brother she kept, and they have damn near destroyed our marriage.


----------



## happyhusband0005

turnera said:


> And happyhusband, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that YOUR wife is CRAZY into you, right? Why? Because you treat her as an EQUAL and not only do you see that, but you TRUST her and ENCOURAGE her to be herself away from you. So much so that, when she comes home, you are THE one thing she can't get wait to get hold of. And she f*cks your brains out.


I would say yes this about sums it up. And I enjoy spending time with the guys doing manly things without the girls also. SO it's a balance we both know what the other enjoy doing and we are happy to say I don't really like doing that so go ahead with your friends and have a blast. I think over 26 years together we have learned that each others happiness is not 100% dependent on each other, we need to fill our happiness buckets through doing things the other might not be that into. And we both support each other in filling that happiness bucket in whatever way works.

I back when I was finishing college and she had graduated she got the opportunity to move to England for work for a 1 year stint. She was extremely hesitant after an initial 1 week trip to meet the people in the London office, but a friend of hers was also going and I had a very good friend who was British and lived in London. He introduced her and her friend to his group of friends and she ended up having an unbelievable experience, her friend ended up marrying on of my friends buddies, his whole group of friends became our life long friends and I got to travel to London about every other week for 8 months and then I moved over and lived with her there after I graduated until her stint was up. She to this day says my pushing her to do that help her avoid making potentially the biggest mistake of her life. Our kids are both named after the area of London we lived in. 

We both benefited from her experience her company even flew me to London and put me up for 2 weeks to pick out her apartment which they paid for, I had a lovely realtor lady who showed me around to find the apartment and we had a chauffeur drive us around in a S600 MB. Quite the experience for a 22 year old college student. 

That year solidified our relationship in a way it wouldn't have been otherwise I believe. In this thread the OP should put all this in perspective and understand that even though this was a bummer that he didn't get to go on this one how he treats the experience will have a long lasting impact on their relationship. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do is to encourage your SO or spouse to take advantage of an opportunity even if you can't, I think most people find a person who can support their spouse in something that makes them uncomfortable very attractive and makes them appreciate them for their generosity. 

I also like when my wife takes off on a business trip or a girls trip because I get to hang with the kids just me and do the fun stuff my wife doesn't enjoy and we have a blast.


----------



## ABHale

personofinterest said:


> "Where he is now, I can't see it any better than lesson learned. Next time, voice objections, not wait for her to read minds. But it seems he gets that."
> 
> I agree. I think he gets that and the horse is dead.
> 
> So why beat it with the typical affair hammer? The OP seemed in a good, rational place with his update. Winding him back up will likely not benefit his marriage.


Neither will rug sweeping what has happened and the friendship with the gf. 

If you read it, this gf has taken the wife to two places now OP was planning on taking her. The way both have been done is no coincidence. The first done at the last minute where wife had to go straight from work, wife bday party husband not invited. Then the trip to Sicily.


----------



## ABHale

happyhusband0005 said:


> I would say yes this about sums it up. And I enjoy spending time with the guys doing manly things without the girls also. SO it's a balance we both know what the other enjoy doing and we are happy to say I don't really like doing that so go ahead with your friends and have a blast. I think over 26 years together we have learned that each others happiness is not 100% dependent on each other, we need to fill our happiness buckets through doing things the other might not be that into. And we both support each other in filling that happiness bucket in whatever way works.
> 
> I back when I was finishing college and she had graduated she got the opportunity to move to England for work for a 1 year stint. She was extremely hesitant after an initial 1 week trip to meet the people in the London office, but a friend of hers was also going and I had a very good friend who was British and lived in London. He introduced her and her friend to his group of friends and she ended up having an unbelievable experience, her friend ended up marrying on of my friends buddies, his whole group of friends became our life long friends and I got to travel to London about every other week for 8 months and then I moved over and lived with her there after I graduated until her stint was up. She to this day says my pushing her to do that help her avoid making potentially the biggest mistake of her life. Our kids are both named after the area of London we lived in.
> 
> We both benefited from her experience her company even flew me to London and put me up for 2 weeks to pick out her apartment which they paid for, I had a lovely realtor lady who showed me around to find the apartment and we had a chauffeur drive us around in a S600 MB. Quite the experience for a 22 year old college student.
> 
> That year solidified our relationship in a way it wouldn't have been otherwise I believe. In this thread the OP should put all this in perspective and understand that even though this was a bummer that he didn't get to go on this one how he treats the experience will have a long lasting impact on their relationship. Sometimes the most loving thing you can do is to encourage your SO or spouse to take advantage of an opportunity even if you can't, I think most people find a person who can support their spouse in something that makes them uncomfortable very attractive and makes them appreciate them for their generosity.
> 
> I also like when my wife takes off on a business trip or a girls trip because I get to hang with the kids just me and do the fun stuff my wife doesn't enjoy and we have a blast.


Your still comparing apples and oranges between your life style and OP’s. 

OP and his family don’t have the means to do what yours does. He has never said you can’t go out tonight with your gf. 

Happyhusband, does any of your wife’s friends treat you like OP’s wife’s gf treats him?

Or do they greet you with a welcoming smile and a how are you. This is how all my wife’s friends treat me.


----------



## Evinrude58

personofinterest said:


> "Where he is now, I can't see it any better than lesson learned. Next time, voice objections, not wait for her to read minds. But it seems he gets that."
> 
> I agree. I think he gets that and the horse is dead.
> 
> So why beat it with the typical affair hammer? The OP seemed in a good, rational place with his update. Winding him back up will likely not benefit his marriage.



I agree that winding him up about an affair is totally unproductive. No evidence of that, particularly pertaining to other MEN.

I just think that for WHATEVER REASON, OP doesn't like this GABI person, and Gabi is something that needs working out. OP will recover from the financial hit of his wife going on vacation for a week. NOT a huge problem. Live and learn.

It's the Gabi problem that must be worked out in OP's mind. That is going to require some extreme thinking and discussing on his part.

I think that the only way to do it is to sit down with his wife while he's in a GOOD mood and feeling emotionally strong, and tell her what he's feeling about Gabi and why he thinks she is bad for their relationship, and give his wife the OPPORTUNITY to address it. One thing is for certain, if OP's wife constantly spends her free time with Gabi and not the OP, then that is a bad thing for their marriage, and he has every right to be jealous of her. 

I wish OP would give us more information about the amount of time his wife is spending with Gabi, and whether it's escalating or not, and whether he's discussed with his wife the thing where Gabi is omitting him from things.

It may be a normal friend thing and OP is just overreacting. Or not. I'd guess not. She's gone for a week to Sicily with her. She's spending family money in relatively large amounts. And she's going out to bars with Gabi. Spidey sense has been activated in OP. It may be for a reason.


----------



## NobodySpecial

ABHale said:


> Neither will rug sweeping what has happened and the friendship with the gf.
> 
> If you read it, this gf has taken the wife to two places now OP was planning on taking her. The way both have been done is no coincidence. The first done at the last minute where wife had to go straight from work, wife bday party husband not invited. Then the trip to Sicily.


I have been reading the thread and seem to have missed the toxicity part. Is someone willing to link me to the post(s) that talk about this? I don't want to make anyone regurgitate. Thanks.


----------



## happyhusband0005

ABHale said:


> Your still comparing apples and oranges between your life style and OP’s.
> 
> OP and his family don’t have the means to do what yours does. He has never said you can’t go out tonight with your gf.
> 
> Happyhusband, does any of your wife’s friends treat you like OP’s wife’s gf treats him?
> 
> Or do they greet you with a welcoming smile and a how are you. This is how all my wife’s friends treat me.


No I get that, but the OP also seems like he has a hard time connecting with people and doesn't appear to have put out any effort on his end, he just gets bummed by not being invited. Lots of the time I find very introverted people give out the sense they have no interest in getting to know someone without realizing they are giving off that vibe. Gabi might feel he dislikes her just like he feels about her. There are multiple issues here, the money thing being the smallest from how I read the posts, I take the money thing as the small relative cost of this trip put a dent in things but wasn't crippling. The bigger issue is finding a way for the OP and Gabi building their own friendship which given the importance of the relationship to his wife should motivate him to put in the effort to cultivate that friendship. I think if he was friendly with Gabi he would still be bummed that he didn't get to share the experience but he would feel better and happy for both of them. 

The OP and his wife need to work together to find the right balance for themselves, this trip was an extreme outlier which is unlikely to come up again, so the work is how to move forward on the smaller day to day stuff relating to doing things separately if his wife is getting more interested in doing things alone. There is always a way to find that happy middle ground on these things and find a way for both of you to enjoy changes in dynamics. As Bruce Lee says, "Be water my friend".


----------



## BigDigg

personofinterest said:


> Now we are just getting ridiculous in our projection...


At the risk of going off topic further - for some reason this reminds me of Will Ferrell in Zoolander...


----------



## personofinterest

ABHale said:


> Neither will rug sweeping what has happened and the friendship with the gf.
> 
> If you read it, this gf has taken the wife to two places now OP was planning on taking her. The way both have been done is no coincidence. The first done at the last minute where wife had to go straight from work, wife bday party husband not invited. Then the trip to Sicily.



I will gladly apologiuze for advocating rug sweeping when you quote to me where I said that.

This friendship with Gabi seems to be a problem. I think that problem should be addressed. I think THAT is the issue.


----------



## Evinrude58

nogoer said:


> Ok i got sucked in like i didnt intend to, but its helping to pass the time.
> 
> This is a big part of my gripe on this. Her friend, Gabi as ill refer to her was a friend she had in high school. A few years ago they reconnected and have ever since done mostly regular girls night outs and such. theyve done a few activities like trained for a half marathon and taken some beach days. Nothing ive ever really felt threatened over, but always something i was explcitly excluded from by gabi by good design. Like an after work thing or i cant make it all the way to you. The subject of coming to ours while im there comes up(i think by my wife) but Gabi always has a reason to cancel. Then this past april around her birthday Gabi invited my wife to dinner in celebration for her brithday, not on the day but close. They went to a new restaurant in town that we were talkign about goign to. I wasnt invited, it was a last minute thing and she went right from work. It was for her birthday and i should have been included, but i stayed home and handled the family like a supportive husband.
> 
> This week while depressingly stalking my wifes facebook(i know already) page i found a video of that night and her riding a mechanical bull. Now im pretty country and boast about bull riding often and would have LOVED to be part of that with her and i know shes knows she should have called and said come down right away when she saw it. All i got after though was no mention of that and a mega downplay at how the food sucked. Im guessing she felt guilty after the fact.
> 
> If it wasnt for this trip being with Gabi i probably would not have fallen so hard, but being excluded from this and whats basically her social life with Gabi hit hard. I started reeling wondering if ive been excluded because Gabi has issues with me or thinks my wife could do better. At minimum it feels like Gabi is deliberately trying to force my wife to have some sort of separation from me and her and our family.
> 
> As to the premise of the trip. Supposedly Gabi's husband jorge had to drop out and Gabis son was too busy with the new school year to go so Gabi was going alone. I have also found out that its not a girls trip either. Its an annual family trip by Gabis family and her sisters were there as well as sisters husband and husbands friend and mother and mothers friend. I wasn't given a reason why jorge had to drop out, but he was here to take them to the airport and is planning on picking them up as well. Hes closer and its Gabis trip really so i dont feel bad hes doing it although i am going to ask to help if i can. Ive contemplated asking him the deal, but at this point theres nothing to gain from that except misery and anger on all sides.
> 
> Honestly im sure im over analyzing it, but my wife already knows ive felt something was wierd with thier relationship and how it always works out im not involved. Next time though Gabis going to get a surprise because im going to insist to my wife that i go along too because i need a night out. I wont force it but it will be very telling if it goes down that i cant go even just this one time. I seriously want to be more involved in her social life, but between my thing and life i never end up doing so and im concerned ive let an issue arise. Im not a huge social person, especially when it comes to bar hopping or the like. It doesnt change the fact Gabi really has never bothered to talk to me or get to know me. Yes i have made my own awkward attempts to her. Even offered to babysit for her so the two of them could go out and its all met with indifference.


OP is feeling Gabi is excluding him and doesn't get why. What he feels about her counts. Whether they're legit feelings or not, he needs to talk to his wife and get his resentment of their relationship out on the table.

From what OP has posted, he seems like a totally reasonable person. He doesn't seem like an a-hole who only thinks of himself AT ALL.
He just wanted to have this kind of memorable overseas vacation with his wife--- special just to them. Now he feels Gabi has stolen that opportunity and worries others will be stolen.

Toxic friend? I don't know. OP's feelings about her--- definitely a problem.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Evinrude58 said:


> OP is feeling Gabi is excluding him and doesn't get why. What he feels about her counts. Whether they're legit feelings or not, he needs to talk to his wife and get his resentment of their relationship out on the table.
> 
> From what OP has posted, he seems like a totally reasonable person. He doesn't seem like an a-hole who only thinks of himself AT ALL.
> He just wanted to have this kind of memorable overseas vacation with his wife--- special just to them. Now he feels Gabi has stolen that opportunity and worries others will be stolen.
> 
> Toxic friend? I don't know. OP's feelings about her--- definitely a problem.


I agree. The one caution would be to approach the topic from the standpoint of his feelings rather than dictating solutions. I feel ... vs you must dump toxic friend...


----------



## personofinterest

NobodySpecial said:


> I agree. The one caution would be to approach the topic from the standpoint of his feelings rather than dictating solutions. I feel ... vs you must dump toxic friend...


I agree. It would make sense for him to sit down in a calm moment once she has been home and say something like:

I am really uncomfortable with the way your friend Gabi seems to try to exclude me. I want you to enjoy friendships with other women, but there are some red flags regarding Gabi I really need to share.

Then he has some very clear examples (he's shared them here).

Not:

How dare you bankrupt us! Give me your panties for a DNA test your drunken hussy! (I am being facetious of course)

If his wife gets really defensive about Gabi....well, THAT would be a real issue. As much as I love my female friends, if any of them ever tried to get between my husband and me or denigrate him, she'd be gone. After I gave her a piece of my mind that was more blunt than anything I've ever posted here lol


----------



## VermiciousKnid

Gabi is toxic to your marriage. The marital relationship can have no competing relationships. It has to be paramount to all other relationships. When it isn't, there's a problem. Not all divorces are about infidelity. I've seen quite a few over competing relationships and the marital relationship loses the competition. Other relationships can exist, and sometimes are even symbiotic to the marital relationship, but this one with Gabi is toxic. Maybe it's unintentional but I have my doubts. I believe Gabi has something cooking.


----------



## NobodySpecial

What has Gabi done to be toxic? SOmeone? Anyone? Bueller?


----------



## personofinterest

NobodySpecial said:


> What has Gabi done to be toxic? SOmeone? Anyone? Bueller?


I think it's the overt exclusion of the OP and her refusal to do anything social that involves him. It makes one wonder why...


----------



## NobodySpecial

personofinterest said:


> I think it's the overt exclusion of the OP and her refusal to do anything social that involves him. It makes one wonder why...


I missed that. That is weird.


----------



## VermiciousKnid

personofinterest said:


> I think it's the overt exclusion of the OP and her refusal to do anything social that involves him. It makes one wonder why...


Exactly. It's a relationship that is competitive/adversarial with the marital relationship. I have seen more than my share of divorce cases my firm has handled where a couple splits because one of them values the BFF more than their spouse. This OP's case is not that unlike a lot of those cases. The wife has to decide which relationship she places more value on.


----------



## personofinterest

I don't want to speak against my own gender as a generalization, but I will say that I have known several women who seem to put their best girlfriend from high school or their kids above their husbands, and that is never a good thing. The marriage comes first in a healthy household, IMO. That is how my own parents lived, and they loved us plenty. I appreciate having been shown what real marital love and commitment looks like growing up.

I know there is the stereotype of men having nights out with the boys and all night poker games, but when push comes to shove, they do not typically EMOTIONALLY rate their buddies above their wives.


----------



## happyhusband0005

personofinterest said:


> I think it's the overt exclusion of the OP and her refusal to do anything social that involves him. It makes one wonder why...


I didn't really take it that way. I took it as he was never actively included meaning it is not why don't we double date. A girls day/night is obviously exclusive of the husbands. I might have missed something but I don't remember reading Gabi tells my wife not to invite me. So I have taken it as the OP prefers to be at home spending time as a family and the wife likes to get out for girl time. I think the Gabi friendship being important to the wife they both should put effort into doing things as a group occasionally. 

I have taken things as the OP prefers to spend time just as a couple with the kids or just a couple. 

If I didn't get along with my wife's friends I would be happy to avoid them, but I'm close to all her friends and have even had drinks dinner with her friends with out my wife from time to time. But if Gabi is actively trying to exclude the OP and the wife goes along with it then thats no bueno. I just didn't take it that way.


----------



## MyRevelation

turnera said:


> MyRevelation said:
> 
> 
> 
> nogoer,
> 
> With how you responded to my last post, I have to say that I agree with Taxman and 55Z ... Gabi is TOXIC to your M and needs to be removed for not being a "friend of the marriage".
> 
> 
> 
> I hear what you're saying, BUT for him to simply say I want Gabi gone, his wife will just say why should I. She's getting something out of this friendship that she's not getting from her marriage. What is he doing about that?
Click to expand...

I’m just relating my own experiences that apply to nogoer’s situation. We cut 2, actually 3, if my W’s toxic friends out our lives and the results have been positive 11+ years out.

I understand nogoer will have to frame the issue so his W will understand how he views Gabi’s negative influence on his W and how she’s driving a wedge into their M, but it’s a discussion he needs to have and a boundary he needs to establish and enforce.

As with most things, there’s good and bad, but from my perspective, the good that nogoer’s W gets from Gabi’s “friendship” is greatly outweighed by the damage she is (IMHO intentionally) inflicting on their M.


----------



## NobodySpecial

VermiciousKnid said:


> Exactly. It's a relationship that is competitive/adversarial with the marital relationship. I have seen more than my share of divorce cases my firm has handled where a couple splits because one of them values the BFF more than their spouse. This OP's case is not that unlike a lot of those cases. The wife has to decide which relationship she places more value on.


In my less that humble opinion (ha!), you only see the OTHER side of this equation when the thing has failed. I think it is a big mistake to focus on one solution but to instead for them to work together on the problem. That approach is much less likely to engender conflict and resentment, even if the ultimate solution is to ditch the friend. It might be enough to find out WHY the friend is dead set on ignoring him. It could be ANYTHING not necessarily anything related to the marriage. I mean, pulling one out of my butt, she might be a raging social justice warrior and he a staunch conservative... The list of the possible is huge. I have one friend my husband does not like very much. That does not mean he is a bad guy. Flip it and it could be the same thing.


----------



## NobodySpecial

MyRevelation said:


> I’m just relating my own experiences that apply to nogoer’s situation. We cut 2, actually 3, if my W’s toxic friends out our lives and the results have been positive 11+ years out.
> 
> I understand nogoer will have to frame the issue so his W will understand how he views Gabi’s negative influence on his W and how she’s driving a wedge into their M, but it’s a discussion he needs to have and a boundary he needs to establish and enforce.
> 
> As with most things, there’s good and bad, but from my perspective, the good that nogoer’s W gets from Gabi’s “friendship” is greatly outweighed by the damage she is (IMHO intentionally) inflicting on their M.


So someone explain what the negative influence this Gabi brings.


----------



## personofinterest

I think the inference is that since it seems as if she purposely avoids and excludes him, she may be whispering in Gabi's ear about him negatively, and that could be a problem. Of course, that is a supposition, but honestly, I can't think of any reason I would avoid any of my friends' husbands unless I just didn't like them. And while their is one husband who I think drinks too much, I don't avoid him. My husband and I just don't attend any gatherings at their particular house.

From what I have read, OP and his wife have invited the Gabi to their home or tried to make plans that include him, and she always has an excuse or bails. So it's one of those things with no actual smoking gun but tons of circumstantial evidence.

I don't think, for example, that the OP's wife would cheat because Gabi said, "Hey, he's hot and your out of town. Go get him!"

I do think that Gabi COULD speak negatively about the OP enough that his wife begins to listen and creates resentment where none is warranted. And over time, THAT can be dangerous.

I do agree with your point about a two way conversation looking for solutions rather than an ultimatum or s-test. I love my husband and would listen to his feelings about anything. They would heavily influence any choice I made. But if he did the chest-puffing, "I am man and I have spoken" thing....yeah, that would trigger the straight-backed "EXCUUUUUSE me?!" rsponse


----------



## ABHale

happyhusband0005 said:


> No I get that, but the OP also seems like he has a hard time connecting with people and doesn't appear to have put out any effort on his end, he just gets bummed by not being invited. Lots of the time I find very introverted people give out the sense they have no interest in getting to know someone without realizing they are giving off that vibe. Gabi might feel he dislikes her just like he feels about her. There are multiple issues here, the money thing being the smallest from how I read the posts, I take the money thing as the small relative cost of this trip put a dent in things but wasn't crippling. The bigger issue is finding a way for the OP and Gabi building their own friendship which given the importance of the relationship to his wife should motivate him to put in the effort to cultivate that friendship. I think if he was friendly with Gabi he would still be bummed that he didn't get to share the experience but he would feel better and happy for both of them.
> 
> The OP and his wife need to work together to find the right balance for themselves, this trip was an extreme outlier which is unlikely to come up again, so the work is how to move forward on the smaller day to day stuff relating to doing things separately if his wife is getting more interested in doing things alone. There is always a way to find that happy middle ground on these things and find a way for both of you to enjoy changes in dynamics. As Bruce Lee says, "Be water my friend".


I don’t think they had any problems until this one friend came back into his wife’s life. He understands that she likes going out and he is more of a homebody. Like he said clubbing and drinking aren’t his thing. He has always told her have fun love ya. 

The problem starts when she down plays things like the her surprise bday party he wasn’t invited to and now this trip. 

I would never put my family in financial trouble for the sake of a trip my family wasn’t with me on. Especially if it was somewhere we talked about going as a couple but couldn’t at the time because of financial reasons.


----------



## Workathome

Stop ruining her vacation by guilt tripping her. If I were her, I would resent you terribly for acting like a 8 year old who didn't get his way.


----------



## ABHale

NobodySpecial said:


> I have been reading the thread and seem to have missed the toxicity part. Is someone willing to link me to the post(s) that talk about this? I don't want to make anyone regurgitate. Thanks.


OP has posted many examples of how the GF treats him only. It is obvious from her actions towards him that she can’t stand him. Never invites him to things and once she finds out he will be with his wife at something, gf always comes up with an excuse why she can’t be there or make it.


----------



## personofinterest

Okay, I am ONLY wildly wondering aloud, so don't take my comment and run too fast. But I do know ONE woman who had a weirdly close friendship and....well, she left her hubby for the woman friend.

Is there any chance Gabi is gay? I don't think the wife has designs on Gabi, but could Gabi have designs on the OP's wife? That would explain the unexplainable dislike she seems to display for OP. Again, I do not think OP's wife is having an affair with Gabi. But Gabi might have a thing for her.


----------



## Evinrude58

I hope OP comes back with a report on how they worked things out.


----------



## personofinterest

Evinrude58 said:


> I hope OP comes back with a report on how they worked things out.


I do too. I admit this thread triggered me at first. My former FIL pulled a horrible stunt on my former MIL when she went to Europe with her brother. He was fine with her going, then a few days after she arrived, he called her lonely and threatening suicide - KNOWING she couldn't afford to fly back early. I lost about 60% of the respect I had for the man then. So I wasn't completely objective at the beginning of this.

The OP sounds much more rational than my ex FIL


----------



## ABHale

personofinterest said:


> I will gladly apologiuze for advocating rug sweeping when you quote to me where I said that.
> 
> This friendship with Gabi seems to be a problem. I think that problem should be addressed. I think THAT is the issue.


Ok you win on the rug sweep. I read it differently then what you meant.


----------



## NobodySpecial

ABHale said:


> OP has posted many examples of how the GF treats him only. It is obvious from her actions towards him that she can’t stand him. Never invites him to things and once she finds out he will be with his wife at something, gf always comes up with an excuse why she can’t be there or make it.


That does not sound like toxicity to me. That sounds like someone who does not like her friend's husband. Toxic is here's another Jeager shot. Go hit that hot guy that has been flirting with you.

Do all of your friends like your wife?


----------



## happyhusband0005

ABHale said:


> I don’t think they had any problems until this one friend came back into his wife’s life. He understands that she likes going out and he is more of a homebody. Like he said clubbing and drinking aren’t his thing. He has always told her have fun love ya.
> 
> The problem starts when she down plays things like the her surprise bday party he wasn’t invited to and now this trip.
> 
> I would never put my family in financial trouble for the sake of a trip my family wasn’t with me on. Especially if it was somewhere we talked about going as a couple but couldn’t at the time because of financial reasons.


I don't think he said it put them in financial trouble but that it set them back a month in savings which is a small price for an 80% off trip to Italy. 
@nogoer will be fine, his wife will get back, he will be happy for her to be home, she will be happy to be home, they will discuss him wanting a bit more consideration in these scenarios and he will promise to be more direct in his communication in the future and she will promise to be more inclusive of him in the future. How this all plays out will depend on them both learning from this experience. 

Hey who knows in the future maybe they travel with friends and save on trips they might not take alone as a family, you can save big money splitting a VRBO rental with friends in a place like Italy instead of staying in a hotel and eating all meals at restaurants.


----------



## Bobby5000

My wife is going on an overseas trip with a cousin and we have some financial challenges. I think you are 99% wrong, you should apologize and let her have a nice time. 
As others note, if there was a problem with this, it should have been brought up when something could be done about it.


----------



## ABHale

happyhusband0005 said:


> I don't think he said it put them in financial trouble but that it set them back a month in savings which is a small price for an 80% off trip to Italy.
> 
> @nogoer will be fine, his wife will get back, he will be happy for her to be home, she will be happy to be home, they will discuss him wanting a bit more consideration in these scenarios and he will promise to be more direct in his communication in the future and she will promise to be more inclusive of him in the future. How this all plays out will depend on them both learning from this experience.
> 
> Hey who knows in the future maybe they travel with friends and save on trips they might not take alone as a family, you can save big money splitting a VRBO rental with friends in a place like Italy instead of staying in a hotel and eating all meals at restaurants.


Still not the point. 

She took a trip to a place they talked about going together in the future with someone else. 

Also, like mine it doesn’t sound like his budget leaves much room to make up what the trip cost the vacation budget. Cut backs will be made in other places to make up for it. Yes a set back but a costly one.


----------



## happyhusband0005

Would it have mattered if it was a place they had never discussed going as a couple. I doubt it, he's going through FOMO and he's bummed she even wanted to do something without him. These two issues are whats driving the OPs emotions. A simple, hey I would rather we do that trip as a family, if you go now it won't be the same when we go together, probably would have resolved the issue right then and there. Making the wife the bad actor for taking a rare opportunity he didn't object to. She didn't do anything wrong except not anticipate his issues on her own.


----------



## NobodySpecial

happyhusband0005 said:


> Would it have mattered if it was a place they had never discussed going as a couple. I doubt it, he's going through* FOMO and he's bummed she even wanted to do something without him*. These two issues are whats driving the OPs emotions. A simple, hey I would rather we do that trip as a family, if you go now it won't be the same when we go together, probably would have resolved the issue right then and there. Making the wife the bad actor for taking a rare opportunity he didn't object to. She didn't do anything wrong except not anticipate his issues on her own.


Yup.


----------



## VermiciousKnid

personofinterest said:


> Okay, I am ONLY wildly wondering aloud, so don't take my comment and run too fast. But I do know ONE woman who had a weirdly close friendship and....well, she left her hubby for the woman friend.
> 
> Is there any chance Gabi is gay? I don't think the wife has designs on Gabi, but could Gabi have designs on the OP's wife? That would explain the unexplainable dislike she seems to display for OP. Again, I do not think OP's wife is having an affair with Gabi. But Gabi might have a thing for her.


You're not the only one. I suspect the exact same thing.


----------



## Blondilocks

Poor Gabi - tried and convicted without a shred of evidence. She's gone from being a scapegoat for all that ails him to a seductress of his wife. A most TOXIC one at that. 

No where is it written that a friend of a spouse must like you. They need to be respectful; but, like - nope. They don't have to invite you for a birthday celebration that isn't even on the birth day; they don't have to let you babysit their kids; they don't have to subject their spouse to your social ineptitude. Has anyone considered that maybe it's the OP's wife who doesn't want her husband along? It's kinda hard to ride a mechanical bull (they still have those?) with your spouse in your back pocket.

How about the OP just take a magic marker and mark the entire world map as someplace he would like to go therefore denying his wife the right to go anywhere without him. Yep, she can't step foot in any restaurant unless he has already been there. The only problem is: he likes to stay home. He was never going to go that bar with his wife or Sicily. 

Get real, people.


----------



## Decorum

NobodySpecial said:


> That does not sound like toxicity to me. That sounds like someone who does not like her friend's husband. Toxic is here's another Jeager shot. Go hit that hot guy that has been flirting with you.
> 
> Do all of your friends like your wife?



That is the question. Does she hold her peace, or does she do or say things that undermine the marriage relationship.

There is no evidence she is toxic, but the OP should ask hs wife if Gabi speaks negatively of him, (you could do so much better, etc)

You mentioned she might be gay, interesting thought.

I dont know, but do gay women seek male friends (I assume so), if so then why isolate the wife.

NobodySpecial, you often think outside the box and I like that, just asking.

ETA: Actually NS I just reread it and I understand now. If he were openly anti-gay in some way, it would be understandable why she would not seek his presence.


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## Rubix Cubed

nogoer said:


> Ok i got sucked in like i didnt intend to, but its helping to pass the time.
> 
> This is a big part of my gripe on this. Her friend, Gabi as ill refer to her was a friend she had in high school. A few years ago they reconnected and have ever since done mostly regular girls night outs and such. theyve done a few activities like trained for a half marathon and taken some beach days. Nothing ive ever really felt threatened over, but always something i was explcitly excluded from by gabi by good design. Like an after work thing or i cant make it all the way to you. The subject of coming to ours while im there comes up(i think by my wife) but Gabi always has a reason to cancel. Then this past april around her birthday Gabi invited my wife to dinner in celebration for her brithday, not on the day but close. They went to a new restaurant in town that we were talkign about goign to. I wasnt invited, it was a last minute thing and she went right from work. It was for her birthday and i should have been included, but i stayed home and handled the family like a supportive husband.
> 
> This week while depressingly stalking my wifes facebook(i know already) page i found a video of that night and her riding a mechanical bull. Now im pretty country and boast about bull riding often and would have LOVED to be part of that with her and i know shes knows she should have called and said come down right away when she saw it. All i got after though was no mention of that and a mega downplay at how the food sucked. Im guessing she felt guilty after the fact.
> 
> If it wasnt for this trip being with Gabi i probably would not have fallen so hard, but being excluded from this and whats basically her social life with Gabi hit hard. I started reeling wondering if ive been excluded because Gabi has issues with me or thinks my wife could do better. At minimum it feels like Gabi is deliberately trying to force my wife to have some sort of separation from me and her and our family.
> 
> As to the premise of the trip. Supposedly Gabi's husband jorge had to drop out and Gabis son was too busy with the new school year to go so Gabi was going alone. I have also found out that its not a girls trip either. Its an annual family trip by Gabis family and her sisters were there as well as sisters husband and husbands friend and mother and mothers friend. I wasn't given a reason why jorge had to drop out, but he was here to take them to the airport and is planning on picking them up as well. Hes closer and its Gabis trip really so i dont feel bad hes doing it although i am going to ask to help if i can. Ive contemplated asking him the deal, but at this point theres nothing to gain from that except misery and anger on all sides.
> 
> Honestly im sure im over analyzing it, but my wife already knows ive felt something was wierd with thier relationship and how it always works out im not involved. Next time though Gabis going to get a surprise because im going to insist to my wife that i go along too because i need a night out. I wont force it but it will be very telling if it goes down that i cant go even just this one time. I seriously want to be more involved in her social life, but between my thing and life i never end up doing so and im concerned ive let an issue arise. Im not a huge social person, especially when it comes to bar hopping or the like. It doesnt change the fact Gabi really has never bothered to talk to me or get to know me. Yes i have made my own awkward attempts to her. Even offered to babysit for her so the two of them could go out and its all met with indifference.





NobodySpecial said:


> So someone explain what the negative influence this Gabi brings.


 This is where it came from.
I regurgitated just for you.


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## NobodySpecial

Decorum said:


> That is the question. Does she hold her peace, or does she do or say things that undermine the marriage relationship.
> 
> There is no evidence she is toxic, but the OP should ask hs wife if Gabi speaks negatively of him, (you could do so much better, etc)
> 
> You mentioned she might be gay, interesting thought.
> 
> I dont know, but do gay women seek male friends (I assume so), if so then why isolate the wife.
> 
> NobodySpecial, you often think outside the box and I like that, just asking.


I only thought of the gay angle in the context of his POTENTIALLY being judgy around issues she holds as important. I said upthread it could be anything. My husband has some artsy friends I don't like because they are so full of themselves and their AAAARRRRT. Ok just one. I don't see her isolating the wife. I just don't see her inviting.

People seek friends. My gay son has male friends and female friends. Most people don't run around with gender wars in their heads.


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## NobodySpecial

Rubix Cubed said:


> This is where it came from.
> I regurgitated just for you.


THAT is what is making people say Gabi is toxic and exclusionary?? Thems some vivid imaginations. I had read that post. I just thought I had missed something.


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## happyhusband0005

Rubix Cubed said:


> This is where it came from.
> I regurgitated just for you.


I think if you read this with the understanding that the OP himself has said he isn't social and prefers to stay at home, you see the situation is simple. He has never said I want to go to these kinds of events, is she not supposed to do anything that the husband doesn't want to do, did he have in interest in training for a 1/2 marathon? His problem is he doesn't seem to communicate this stuff clearly. 

My guess is if he follows through on demanding to be included in these social outings, and everyone is surprised he wants to go and welcomes him along. He is assuming that he is excluded for some nefarious reason other than they know he doesn't like big social things. 

I think if he starts doing these things with his wife it will be great and they will find new things to enjoy together and he will get better at enjoying the social stuff. 

And all will be well in the world.


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## Evinrude58

I hope OP comes back with a report on how they worked things out.


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## nogoer

This is my last response and no matter how much i want to read over all the responses im not going to let it happen and possibly set me back from the ground ive gained. Ill probably peruse any responses to this final update though.

Its the last day and when i wake up tomorrow morning she will be halfway home already. Knowing its over is helping me, which i and all of you knew would happen. My wife and i have chatted all week, sometimes getting into the discussion over what happened but usually just talking about things going on there and here. 

My becoming supportive and involved on a sometimes minute by minute basis i believe has turned a light on with her about how shes experiencing all this without me. Its something i think she didnt consider in her excitement to go and her anger at my choice to pull away from it. I dont like it's caused feelings of guilt with her and i really hope it's because of her revelations not my intervention. I get the idea that shes kind of thinking of me not being there when shes seeing the sights and randomly sends a pic of it and wants to talk about it.

We both agree that it sucks that a cliche like this had to wake up these emotions and respark our relationship. I followed one posters advice about finding something new together and actually bought tickets to a hockey game next weekend we had talked about going to. Now were both excited about spending the night doing that and have it to look forward to. I felt she needed something fun to think about to help with the post vacation blues shes sure to feel tomorrow.

All in all it appears to be working towards a happy ending and possibly happier than if this had not happened in the first place. I just pray we both keep up with the changes we will ultimately make from this. I dont have any reason to doubt that wont happen though.

Thanks to everyone good or bad it helped me from making a big mistake. Lessons have been learned by both of us and while we have some work left to do its good work and not a recovery effort like it could have been.


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## turnera

Great update. Moving forward, make sure you spend at least 10 hours a week together, dating, away from electronics, chores, bills, 'regular' stuff. That's how you keep the happy flowing so that when she thinks of you she thinks 'I'm so lucky.'


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## personofinterest

Great update. Honestly, I would recommend not reading anything more lol. You and your wife are in a good, healthy, rational place. It won't benefit you to hear how shady she might be or how wrong she is at this point


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## Evinrude58

Sounds like you have a healthy relationship to me, and that you have done some good introspection while she's been gone. 
I hope you have loads of fun with your wife and build such a great friendship that she enjoys spending time with you more than anyone else (maybe already there)

Everyone likes to try to put the pieces of the puzzle together and solve everyone else's problems (I do). I think you have things well in hand and I wish you many years of happiness with your wife.

Enjoyed your update.


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## happyhusband0005

You're all good bud, glad your dealing better, looks like you both are handling this well given the initial bumps. I think your discovering the distance makes the heart grow fonder thing can be true. Most importantly I think you'll both have better or more open communication on things like this going forward. Great idea about the hockey game that should be fun.


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## bandit.45

It seems to me that this has all been much ado about nothing. 

nogoer be honest with us: How much did this trip cost you and your wife? Out of pocket how much has she spent? 

Dude I have been burned bad by women in my life, but that still would not dissuade me from supporting a woman I loved from taking advantage of a great deal when one came along. I grew up poor, never having had the opportunity to travel and see all the places I have wanted to see. If a chance like this came along I'd grab onto it like sh!t on velcro. 

nogoer's your wife had a great deal land in her lap. She took advantage of it and had a great life experience. Instead of exulting in it with her, you have been brooding and complaining like a spoiled little boy. And now you are resentful... 

Grow up my man.


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## x598

bandit.45 said:


> It seems to me that this has all been much ado about nothing.
> 
> nogoer be honest with us: How much did this trip cost you and your wife? Out of pocket how much has she spent?
> 
> Dude I have been burned bad by women in my life, but that still would not dissuade me from supporting a woman I loved from taking advantage of a great deal when one came along. I grew up poor, never having had the opportunity to travel and see all the places I have wanted to see. If a chance like this came along I'd grab onto it like sh!t on velcro.
> 
> nogoer's your wife had a great deal land in her lap. She took advantage of it and had a great life experience. Instead of exulting in it with her, you have been brooding and complaining like a spoiled little boy. And now you are resentful...
> 
> Grow up my man.


THIS :iagree

it usually times like this that reveal deeper troubles in your relationship.

I bet the real underlying issue is still to come out. your over reaction to all this is probably stemming from it.


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## Space Mountain

Nogoer,

I tried to post this yesterday but my internet went down due to the storm. I don't post often and I have not read everyone's replies but I thought I would throw in my two cents worth. I get it and I understand your feeling slighted. Regardless of everyone else telling you how you should feel happy for her, you still feel slighted. If it were my wife, I would have a major problem going on a trip of this magnitude without me and the family. This is not some piece of crap trip to Gatlinburg or Myrtle Beach. It is Italy for the love of God. I would have put my foot down and said no but that is just me. I can be an ahole when it comes to the family.

So going forward and the damage has already been done, go through the motions today when she arrives home and be happy for her. However, do not let this become a habit. This would be the last trip of this magnitude. 

Do not let spousal and family exclusions become the new normal. Your wife married you and not Gabi. Let your wife have some girl time every now and then but you and the family must not be excluded. Also, I would have a problem with my wife going to bars and etc. but then again that is just me.

I believe I had read that Gabi's husband is picking them up at the airport tomorrow and bringing your wife home. If it where me, her trip would be over at the airport. I would take my daughters and greet my wife at the airport and ride home as a family. She could tell the family about the trip and everyone could be happy for her as she shares her experiences.

Listen to what Turnera said. She is a Rockstar here. Quality time with your wife and family is the key. Make so much quality time together that she has no time and no desire for Gabi.

I also believe that what is good for the goose is good for the gander. If she takes a trip I would take a trip of equal or greater value and etc. Take that trip you mentioned earlier to the ranch. There should be no discussion required on this subject. She had her fun.

I hope what I am about to say does not hurt and I hope you will take it as constructive criticism but reading some of your post, I sense you may need a personality boost. I suggest a couple of books. These are must reads. 

1) The Married Man Sex Life Primer by Athol Kay
2) The Rational Male by Rollo Tomasi
3) No More Mister Nice Guy by Robert Glover


Good luck and be the captian of your ship.


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## Robert22205

You got a lot of good advice here. You sound exhausted and overworked etc which is a fertile ground for feeling sorry for yourself.
But that's not an excuse for you sabotaging her vacation after you 'approved' it.

You're acting immature and jealous when you should be happy and supportive of your wife.

Maybe you can save this so she doesn't resent you forever. 

Tell her asap that you didn't anticipate feeling so overwhelmed, she did nothing wrong and you're ashamed of acting like a cry baby - apologize and say you hope you didn't ruin her trip. Encourage her to enjoy herself.


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## MattMatt

*Moderator Message*

This thread has degenerated into a pointless exercise in rampant threadjackery and is also now something of a snarkfest.

As a result, it is now closed.


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