# Marital desire driven by lust or love?



## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

My wife complains that my libido would be the same even if we never met and I would have married someone else. Therefore my desire to be with her is just hormones and not representative of what should be described as love. 

The debate surrounding the above topic has played out over many years and I know my wife struggles with it for a few reasons:



She needs me to reaffirm the reasons why I love her that are unrelated to physical desire, or otherwise my higher level of desire sometimes leaves her feeling used regardless of her enjoyment. 
She also needs me to reaffirm the reasons why it is I only desire her, as my years of bad habits with porn is something she struggles to reconcile.
My wife claims that she has zero libido and does not even know what it means to be "horny" as she has never experienced that before.
My wife also needs to convey that she loves me and that her lack of libido is perhaps just a lack of hormonal lust. Otherwise she struggles with feeling inadequate in our marriage. 
All of my wive's female friends feel virtually the same ways in their marriages, which has validated my wife to feel the way she does as completely normal. I am OK with that as it has helped her confidence to not feel so bad or inadequate. 

Things in our marriage work well. My wife has what might be described as a responsive desire that I find to be at times superior to that of my own if you ask me. However I don't think I'll ever convince her that my desire to be with her is out of love as she feels it is fueled exclusively by hormones. When I initiate, it is rarely out of what I would call a hormonal urge, but more out of wanting to feel close and that I just know everything in the hormonal department happens so easily and naturally for me once she finally accepts my advances. 

So why then are there people that feel that the desire of physical intimacy is something primarily hormonal and unrelated to a drive to connect with a spouse lovingly or emotionally? I mean I get it, there are obvious hormonal urges. Perhaps wives need to perceive their men to be emotionally solid and without any neediness for connection in order to feel safe and secure? Perhaps wives prefer to feel physically desired as if a husband's sexual desire is solely a response to her beauty? 

I know I am writing this somewhat gender specific and there are many examples where these roles work the other way around. So don't judge me for that... I am just writing from my own candid point of view. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

I'll be blunt. Your wife sounds very whiny, contrary, and needy. And I say that as a woman.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

You and your wife should check out asexuality.org. Her response is atypical 

In most typical relationships, being sexually desired along with all the other aspects of love is considered a *positive* thing. For most people love, romance and sexual desire are entangled together. Its not something they can even separate.

I love my wife. I enjoy spending time with her. I enjoy her smile when I do some little romantic thing for her. I like to cuddle next to her on the sofa watching TV, I like to kiss her and I like having sex with her. They all blend together for me. 


I think if you asked men and women "do you enjoy being sexually desired as part of your long term relationship", almost all would say "yes". 

That isn't the same as *only* being wanted for sex.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

personofinterest said:


> I'll be blunt. Your wife sounds very whiny, contrary, and needy. And I say that as a woman.


You go girl... 

But to answer your question if there is one... If a woman that I am with, does not lust after me, she is not with me.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to be reaffirmed for a man or a woman. I let her know all the time how beautiful she is, and I guess she kind of already knows how much I desire her because I am banging her all the time. But I do tell her. 

I want her to know how I feel about her. But she also knows how much I LOVE her. How she has made my life complete, how honored and happy I am that she is in my life. I could go on an get super mushy about all of this, but even at my age, I just never knew. 

I never knew it could be like this. 

But doesn't everyone tell their partner how much they love them? How much they mean to them?

Because if that is not happening, I sure should be... 

I know people disagree, but why be married, or together if you do not lust after each other? Why even be there in the first place???


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

This point below, 
'She also needs me to reaffirm the reasons why it is I only desire her, as my years of bad habits with porn is something she struggles to reconcile.'

I can fully understand her position on this.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

Diana7 said:


> This point below,
> 'She also needs me to reaffirm the reasons why it is I only desire her, as my years of bad habits with porn is something she struggles to reconcile.'
> 
> I can fully understand her position on this.


I would have 2 thoughts:

1. If he no longer uses porn, this isn't valid

2. If his porn use stems from her refusal, it may be wrong, but she bears some responsibility


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## StillSearching (Feb 8, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> I know people disagree, but why be married, or together if you do not lust after each other? Why even be there in the first place???


Money.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Your wife sounds like she might be the product of repressive sexual indoctrination.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

Santa, it seems like she sets an impossible bar for you to get over.

I think her attitude towards it is similar to anyone who does not experience a love language. If acts of service do nothing for you, it's hard to see how it does something for anyone.

The way you describe the interaction and request above make her seem like a robot or possibly Asperger syndrome related.


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

What was sex like when you were first dating? If she was into it then but not now, it's likely she only feels sexual when she's under the effect of the love hormones. It might be how there are two kinds of people who like karaoke:

- People who like karaoke
- People who like karaoke when they're at a bar drunk and with a group of friends, but otherwise have no interest in it.

For sex, this would be like the difference between how often you have sexual urges when you're not in a relationship. The typical urge in men is a regular thing, and a man will typically masturbate or something to satisfy those urges. But I'm guessing that your wife might not have any urges at all if she wasn't in a relationship. She wouldn't masturbate or anything because there wouldn't be any urges to satisfy. But if she's has the feeling of being in love, she would have desire and want to have sex.

If this is the case, it might be worth looking into the "Married Man's Sex Life Primer" and "Mating in Captivity". Those techniques help her feel like you are pursuing her in sexual way and will make her feel like she's the one you want. As it is now, she may not feel lusted after. She may feel like you're just using her to satisfy your biological sexual release. If she also had a base sexual desire then that can work out great, but if she doesn't have a natural desire then she's not getting that sexual pleasure that makes it worthwhile.


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## MaiChi (Jun 20, 2018)

What does it matter what the reasons for your spouse being randy are? I would not even care about that. the important thing is we can use his state of being randy to generate some good feelings and hopefully he feels like that for a good hour or so. Philosophy on the situation is simply not appropriate as it may interfere with proceedings.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Diana7 said:


> This point below,
> 'She also needs me to reaffirm the reasons why it is I only desire her, as my years of bad habits with porn is something she struggles to reconcile.'
> 
> I can fully understand her position on this.


Maybe it makes sense to re-state I only desire to ACT with her. It almost sounds, on this thread, like hormonal or physical horniness is bad. Pfffft on that.


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## personofinterest (Apr 6, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Your wife sounds like she might be the product of repressive sexual indoctrination.


Yep


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

badsanta said:


> My wife complains that my libido would be the same even if we never met and I would have married someone else. Therefore my desire to be with her is just hormones and not representative of what should be described as love.
> 
> The debate surrounding the above topic has played out over many years and I know my wife struggles with it for a few reasons:
> 
> ...


Lots of parallels here.

For some reason, I've not been entirely successful in making the point that every woman on the planet has a vagina, but I chose her. Ergo, my attraction to her is far deeper and more meaningful than just mere horniness. 

Oh yeah, and she does like the fact that I lust after her. Were I to stop, that wouldn't be good.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> My wife complains that my libido would be the same even if we never met and I would have married someone else. Therefore my desire to be with her is just hormones and not representative of what should be described as love.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You are overthinking it.
It’s pretty straightforward: if your woman doesn’t want to have sex with you as much or as often as you, she is likely going to manufacture a reason why your feelings, desire and intentions are somehow less noble and and important than hers, while at the same time put you down in your place (implicitly or explicitly).

When I tell my wife how hot she is, and she is ready to **** me, she will be flattered. If she is not in the mood, she will say ‘you are just saying it ‘cos you want to **** me!’.
‘Yes, that’s EXACTLY why I’m saying it’. Is my go to response.
I am trying to lead by example and be honest...because mind games are so unnecessary. She also usually gets me to apologise for something I haven’t done, before we have sex. Just in case. 
And I play along..



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

Diana7 said:


> This point below,
> 
> 'She also needs me to reaffirm the reasons why it is I only desire her, as my years of bad habits with porn is something she struggles to reconcile.'
> 
> ...




Because it’s difficult to insert your penis inside a television screen without causing a short cut in the house.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> You and your wife should check out asexuality.org. Her response is atypical


I have at times thought about that, but thoughts along the lines of asexuality do not really match. Many on TAM describe partners with a "sexual aversion" and that might fit better. When we watch Game of Thrones together, all the graphic violence is entertaining but when sex scenes occur she has to fast forward through those because they are inappropriate.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wilson said:


> What was sex like when you were first dating? If she was into it then but not now, it's likely she only feels sexual when she's under the effect of the love hormones. It might be how there are two kinds of people who like karaoke:
> 
> - People who like karaoke
> - People who like karaoke when they're at a bar drunk and with a group of friends, but otherwise have no interest in it.
> ...


Thanks, these are very good points. When we were first dating she was very receptive, but she was never the one to initiate. 

I jokingly accused her of having orgasmic amnesia recently and she laughed. During the heat of the moment she can't tell me enough how wonderful it is, but shortly afterwards she is like it never happened and jokes she should be done with that until a long time from now.

She doesn't fake it. There are times she just can't get into it and she readily tells me to just enjoy myself and not worry about her or try to wait for her to get aroused. After her hysterectomy that happens about 25% of the time.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> Lots of parallels here.
> 
> For some reason, I've not been entirely successful in making the point that every woman on the planet has a vagina, but I chose her. Ergo, my attraction to her is far deeper and more meaningful than just mere horniness.
> 
> Oh yeah, and she does like the fact that I lust after her. Were I to stop, that wouldn't be good.


I hear you on that!


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

InMyPrime said:


> You are overthinking it.
> It’s pretty straightforward: if your woman doesn’t want to have sex with you as much or as often as you, she is likely going to manufacture a reason why your feelings, desire and intentions are somehow less noble and and important than hers, while at the same time put you down in your place (implicitly or explicitly).
> 
> When I tell my wife how hot she is, and she is ready to **** me, she will be flattered. If she is not in the mood, she will say ‘you are just saying it ‘cos you want to **** me!’.
> ...


Oh I have played the validation card and it does often work rather well. But your description of not playing mind games seems rather contradictory!


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

If she's going to argue that your sexual desire for her is purely coincidental, then wouldn't her desire for kisses, hugs, and everything else, also be coincidental? Considering she would want the exact same things from someone else, should you have never married.


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

badsanta said:


> My wife complains that my libido would be the same even if we never met and I would have married someone else.


My reaction to this is... w.t.f.


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## Tasorundo (Apr 1, 2012)

I agree with Biofury, why does anyone do anything for anyone? Are you compelled to do things because of who they are, or who you are?

If I had never eaten a steak, I would still be hungry at meal time.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

BioFury said:


> If she's going to argue that your sexual desire for her is purely coincidental, then wouldn't her desire for kisses, hugs, and everything else, also be coincidental? Considering she would want the exact same things from someone else, should you have never married.


Actually she has almost no desire for kisses, hugs, or anything touchy/feely related within a casual context. I have asked her about that in the past and some of it could be a cultural thing. She grew up in an extraordinary formal culture in which public displays of affection were extraordinary frowned upon (morals set by the Catholic church in case you are wondering).


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## BioFury (Jul 9, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Actually she has almost no desire for kisses, hugs, or anything touchy/feely related within a casual context. I have asked her about that in the past and some of it could be a cultural thing. She grew up in an extraordinary formal culture in which public displays of affection were extraordinary frowned upon (morals set by the Catholic church in case you are wondering).


Well, regardless of what _specifically _she wants from you, the fact remains that she does want something, surely. Unless you do absolutely nothing for her that she likes or needs. Things that she would like or need regardless of who she was married to.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> > My wife complains that my libido would be the same even if we never met and I would have married someone else.
> 
> 
> My reaction to this is... w.t.f.


In our historical arguments regarding the frequency of sexual intimacy in marriage, my wife often feels that she is inadequate and will never be enough to satisfy me. 

Typical scenario would be that I am a 2-3 times a week kind of person, and after two or more weeks without any intimacy and her repeatedly asking if we could just wait for a better day while she proceeds to watch TV or talk on the phone... we would get into an argument about it and she would say that I should have married someone that is able to keep up with my needs.

...now in her defense she did have some reproductive medical issues causing some serious problems. After her hysterectomy things have actually improved drastically. She however still holds onto the notion of feeling that she will never be enough for me and that I would have been better off having married someone else that is much more affectionate. I don't feel that way as I am happy, but wish she could appreciate that my desire is driven more by love than just nonstop hormonal urges.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

BioFury said:


> Well, regardless of what _specifically _she wants from you, the fact remains that she does want something, surely. Unless you do absolutely nothing for her that she likes or needs. Things that she would like or need regardless of who she was married to.


Our careers are highly complimentary to one another. A good analogy might be that of a talented vegetarian chef married to a prolific organic gardener. If we fight about our marriage, work brings us right back together. 

It is a dynamic that I do NOT see in many other marriages. For us even though we have our issues, at the end of the day it works and would not change it for the world!


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

She sounds a lot like my wife, and I'm convinced my wife is at least borderline asexual. Needing to fast forward through sex scenes IS an indication of sex-aversion IMHO.

I found asexuality.org to be a great resource. Regardless of what words are used, it provides a lot if insight into a wide range of people with a lack of typical interest in sex. 

Being in a marriage with a LD / asexual person can be really miserable. 

My wife finally got over thinking that I was "only" attracted to her for sex, and has been trying to schedule things. Its not exactly a subtle hint though that she will engage in some sexual activity only on the day we set aside for chores. Like your wife, mine greatly enjoys sex physically when it happens, but very rarely wants it. 

Last discussion she thought that sex maybe once a month was pretty normal. 





badsanta said:


> I have at times thought about that, but thoughts along the lines of asexuality do not really match. Many on TAM describe partners with a "sexual aversion" and that might fit better. When we watch Game of Thrones together, all the graphic violence is entertaining but when sex scenes occur she has to fast forward through those because they are inappropriate.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> She sounds a lot like my wife, and I'm convinced my wife is at least borderline asexual. Needing to fast forward through sex scenes IS an indication of sex-aversion IMHO.
> 
> I found asexuality.org to be a great resource. Regardless of what words are used, it provides a lot if insight into a wide range of people with a lack of typical interest in sex.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that feedback, I'll definitely look into that website. 

From much of my reading, research and understanding thus far it is as though some people grow up with a dissociative arousal complex. I would describe that as the body responding just as nature intended but the mind failing to recognize and associate what sparked an arousal. Then take this a step further and perhaps the lack of association also creates interference in the form of performance anxiety that serves to prevent arousal when attempting to make it happen.


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## ReformedHubby (Jan 9, 2013)

Apologies OP, as I didn't read all of your post. But your issues are a common theme in relationships, and honestly speaking its something I have zero tolerance for. I am a man, I am supposed to lust for my woman. If she wants to see it as a negative that I desire her, I'd rather find someone that returns the same lustful feelings for me. I am not going to jump through hoops to prove I care. Literally everything else in a relationship is about that. For me sex is primal, yes its better when you love someone, but when I see my woman looking sexy, I ain't thinking romantic thoughts, I am thinking dirty ones and I can't change that.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

What i found from it is that things that seem "obvious" to most people about sexual desire / arousal, do not apply at all to a subset of people. There are people who love their partners, and who get orgasms from sex, but who never the less do not at all desire sex. Its difficult to understand but I think the O for them is more like scratching an itch - and they would prefer not to have the itch in the first place. 




badsanta said:


> Thanks for that feedback, I'll definitely look into that website.
> 
> From much of my reading, research and understanding thus far it is as though some people grow up with a dissociative arousal complex. I would describe that as the body responding just as nature intended but the mind failing to recognize and associate what sparked an arousal. Then take this a step further and perhaps the lack of association also creates interference in the form of performance anxiety that serves to prevent arousal when attempting to make it happen.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

To answer the thread title. YES. This needn't be an either or question.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> What i found from it is that things that seem "obvious" to most people about sexual desire / arousal, do not apply at all to a subset of people. There are people who love their partners, and who get orgasms from sex, but who never the less do not at all desire sex. Its difficult to understand but I think the O for them is more like scratching an itch - and they would prefer not to have the itch in the first place.


The dynamics on the website you suggested do hit home for the most part. I'll continue reading it as it seems to have more participation from those experiencing no desire.

My wife has at times thanked me for bing pushy about improving our intimacy. She claims that without me pushing that she would miss out on all the enjoyment that is possible in that area of marriage. The challenging part is her initial arousal which she claims is my responsibility to make it happen, and the struggle for her to understand my drive to be with her. Same can be said for my struggle to understand her lack of drive in the context of a loving marriage.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

badsanta said:


> My wife complains that my libido would be the same even if we never met and I would have married someone else. Therefore my desire to be with her is just hormones and not representative of what should be described as love.
> 
> The debate surrounding the above topic has played out over many years and I know my wife struggles with it for a few reasons:
> 
> ...


Buddy..... she has a weird view of things 

I love Mrs. C because she makes me laugh and loved me back with everything in her.

I have sex with her because I chose her to fill that position. I could have chosen any number of women but she measured up in areas that they did not.

I want sex because I'm horny all the time and it feels great and I love the intimacy plus it is fun to watch her face twisted in passion!:grin2:

I would want sex regardless of who I was married to or if I wasn't married to anyone.

Sex and love really are different even though sex can easily be an expression of love.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

ConanHub said:


> Buddy..... she has a weird view of things
> 
> I love Mrs. C because she makes me laugh and loved me back with everything in her.
> 
> ...


 @ConanHub sounds like a great marriage! Mine is as well. I find challenges are often opportunities to learn. I do my best to keep it positive and forge ahead.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

ConanHub said:


> I have sex with her because I chose her to fill that position.



That’s better than Shakespeare...

Also, I thought she was the one who showed up and chose you?

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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> That’s better than Shakespeare...
> 
> Also, I thought she was the one who showed up and chose you?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm fond of Shakespeare!:smile2:


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> To answer the thread title. YES. This needn't be an either or question.


I definitely don't disagree with your statement there... but could you sexually enjoy someone out of love in the total absence of lust? That question likely sounds like a contradiction, but it is not. I want to try and explore this question to understand my wife's point of view in certain moments. 

For the purpose of this question let us use a scenario of acquired tastes. Appetites for food are often used as an analogy (although problematic) for sexual libido. I have never acquired a taste for coffee, yet I understand the benefits as well as the social context that sometimes it might be the only breakfast beverage available. My wife can not get enough coffee. She does not know how to work the cappuccino machine, but I have mastered and make better coffees than one can get at Starbucks for my wife (according to her). She often begs me to make her one when she unexpectedly runs out of her K-cups for the Keurig. 

I've had cappuccinos before with some added chocolate, and I do really like them when I drink one. But I have no desire what so ever to make one for myself or ever order one. Someone usually has to insist I try one to help acquire the taste so I can learn to enjoy coffee with my wife in the mornings. I actually tried, enjoyed drinking them, but never really acquired a desire for them. I would be perfectly fine to never ever drink a coffee again.

Am I missing out by not having an acquired taste for coffee so much so that I desire one and have to have it in the mornings? Am I missing the whole coffee experience?

Regards,
Badsanta


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

@badsanta I think it's been previously established that the way your wife approaches sex (and your relationship) is a bit atypical. And she's also crazy stubborn and refuses to consider other perspectives as valid. I've been reading your posts and conversing with you long enough to know that by now, but I do respect the fact that you come here and try to get opinions and feedback.

I think sex in marriage is a combination of both love and lust, in a yin yang kind of way. Yes, from a clinical standpoint, lust is a chemical reaction driven by biological imperative. Love is an emotion, but from a clinical standpoint, it's also chemically driven by dopamine receptors in our brain. (Try throwing that at her, that her desire to feel love is nothing more than chemicals. Actually, don't. I don't think that would end well for you. But I digress.)

At the beginning of a relationship, you're having all the crazy sex because you're driven by lust. By lusty, chemical hormones. But the lust as a primary driver wears off eventually, and if there isn't love there, the relationship is going to fizzle out. Conversely, take love... but without the lusty hormones? It's just a really close friendship. But if you really love someone, you do what you need to do to keep stoking the fire to keep the lust part alive. And the lustiness helps keep the love strong and going. The lust feeds the love, and the love feeds the lust, and so on and so forth.

There's an old saying that goes: Men need sex to feel loved, and women need to feel loved to have sex. But I don't think it's clean-cut gendered like that; I think both halves of the statement apply to both genders, and frequently simultaneously. (With some obvious outliers, obviously.) There's a reason people sometimes refer to sex as "making love;" it indicates that the partners are demonstrating their love via sex.

I have had sex with men that I didn't love, and I have had sex with men that I did love. And while some of the former was amazing, it was nothing like the latter. Sex with someone you love isn't just sex, it's on an entirely different plane.

As atypical as your wife can be, I'm floored that she doesn't grasp THAT concept.


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## anonmd (Oct 23, 2014)

Turn the question around, tell her you realize you were operating under false assumptions for a long time. Thinking from your male perspective and all that. Is it because you were a sucker or a fool?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> @badsanta I think it's been previously established that the way your wife approaches sex (and your relationship) is a bit atypical. And she's also crazy stubborn and refuses to consider other perspectives as valid. I've been reading your posts and conversing with you long enough to know that by now, but I do respect the fact that you come here and try to get opinions and feedback.
> 
> I think sex in marriage is a combination of both love and lust, in a yin yang kind of way. Yes, from a clinical standpoint, lust is a chemical reaction driven by biological imperative. Love is an emotion, but from a clinical standpoint, it's also chemically driven by dopamine receptors in our brain. (Try throwing that at her, that her desire to feel love is nothing more than chemicals. Actually, don't. I don't think that would end well for you. But I digress.)
> 
> ...


Thanks for the feedback and thoughts! My wife and I are actually doing immensely better in the intimacy department than compared to my posts a long time ago. She now understands how important sexual intimacy is for me in the marriage, so she now makes an effort. In her words she describes it as "maintenance sex" and admits she gets a great deal of benefit out of it both pleasurably and that it brings us closer. 

A long time ago her idea of handling my desires would be letting me get my way so to speak, just make it quick and then get on about the day (which was rather unsettling for me). But now every time we find our regular moments to make it happen we usually set aside at least an hour or two and make a solid connection both emotionally and physically. We both admit that anything less than an hour now feels way too rushed and that it is just better to wait until we have ample time.

What gets me, and I can handle it kind of OK, is that I struggle to understand the concept that if it were not for me pushing to make it happen regularly, that she would likely be OK without ever having sex again. You and I could however find ourselves throwing our research pencils into the air and staring aimlessly into a cosmic void to hear what happens without regular intimacy for my wife. She eventually has very orgasmic dreams that are very satisfying and sometimes are so strong she will wake up mid orgasm. Sometimes these dreams consist of flying through the air and being ravaged by multiple comic book Superman/Thor/CaptainAmerica-like characters, or she might get upset if the dream was about me rocking her world because she already has plenty of that if she wants it! 

As for me, I guess I might be atypical in that regard as well because I can honestly never recall having any dreams of a sexual nature and to my knowledge I have never had a wet dream. My dreams often include stuff like flying around like a super hero and then forgetting how to fly during mid flight and falling to the ground, or my teeth falling out and I have to try and put them back without anyone noticing. I regularly dream that I am back in college, have been forgetting to attend all my non-major required courses and I can't find my cloths while streaking around campus in my underwear.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

I both love and lust after my wife however in simple terms it's probably 75% lust / 25% love. I think my wife would probably be on the other end as 75% love / 25% lust. Obviously, women are more emotional and men more visual, etc.

That said, you do stuff to hurt that emotional connection with your wife... Your sex life can take a dramatic hit. I can agree with wives that it would be hard to love or respect a habitual, long term porn user. It's just a sad, dirty habit.

The converse is probably true also, a woman that butches off her hair, gains a bunch of weight, has poor hygiene- this is probably going to damage hubby's interest more than a poor emotional connection.

If you've never had a wet dream that's because:

1. Your wife is a true gem and is always around and willing.
2. You masturbate.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> I both love and lust after my wife however in simple terms it's probably 75% lust / 25% love. I think my wife would probably be on the other end as 75% love / 25% lust. Obviously, women are more emotional and men more visual, etc.
> 
> That said, you do stuff to hurt that emotional connection with your wife... Your sex life can take a dramatic hit. I can agree with wives that it would be hard to love or respect a habitual, long term porn user. It's just a sad, dirty habit.
> 
> ...


While this is not exactly a thread about porn, because my wife is who she before we met and admits she has never experienced lustful feeling towards anyone at anytime... the topic of porn and her reactions to it can provide insight. 

Historically my wife shamed me more so for masturbation than for porn. She feels using porn is synonymous with hiring a prostitute to help masturbate and constitutes a mild form of infidelity. Awkwardly she objects to masturbation without using porn as something just as bad but would only claim that it is wrong for people to do it. In later arguments over this topic she strongly felt that if I stopped masturbating that I would stop desiring sex so much and that alone should solve all the problems in our marriage. 

So from my wife's point of view:



Porn encourages masturbation
Masturbation encourages feelings of lust
Feelings of lust create unloving desires for sex
Lust driven sex in marriage is problematic because it makes women feel used 

So in conclusion if I stop using porn it would help me stop masturbating. If I stopped masturbating I would stop lusting for sexual activities. If I stopped lusting for sexual activities I would stop being so pushy for sexual intimacy in our marriage. If I stopped pushing for intimacy our problems would be solved and no more arguments over sex or having to oblige to marital duties anymore.

Being the loving husband that I am, I tried that her way to see if it would help. She lied to me and promised lots more sex if I needed it as a way to help. When I became needy, she would ignore me and tell me that those feelings should just go away. We got in way more arguments and things got so bad that I was ready to just end it. Perhaps some may say these are the emotional scars created by using porn, but at this point I strongly disagree. I continued to stay away from porn and turned my efforts to research and self help instead. 

At some point I flipped the tables on her and claimed masturbation was perfectly healthy and if anything her lack of self exploration and better knowing herself was more likely the cause of all our problems. "This is just too weird," she claimed. She accused me of still using porn as a motivation for this change, so I said she was invited to watch me or participate in any way she wanted and that I primarily fantasized about her. She refused to believe that and claimed she was not attractive enough for that. ... that was a huge "ah ha" moment for me. 

I discovered that my wife was struggling with low self esteem. She had severe body issues and insisted her body was repulsive. The idea of me desiring her was unreconcilable with how she feels about her own body. So at that point I made it my sole purpose to always work on her self esteem. I also stopped be ashamed of my own efforts of self exploration and gratification to try and restore trust in that area that in my opinion porn was not really the problem but instead the easy scapegoat to blame since it is indeed problematic in so many ways. 

So my primary problem with porn, is that it is so problematic that it makes the real problems so easy to avoid in favor of just blame it all on porn. A women would never want to admit she feels so unattractive that there is no way her husband could ever desire her. Meanwhile I think my wife is the most beautiful woman in the world, and both our imperfections are there to help encourage us learn more about one another. 

Or no, just blame it all on porn?

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## FeministInPink (Sep 13, 2012)

@badsanta The thing that I find curious about your wife is this: it appears that in her mind, there is zero connection between love/emotion and sex. This is atypical in that even those whom staunchly assert that they do not associate sex with love tend to have an about face when they get the feels for someone, and then all of a sudden, yes! they are indeed connected; it just took the right person to flip that switch. But your wife, whether due to different wiring or CST, has never been able to make that connection. More so, the fact that she has never experienced lust towards any other person, and is essentially asexual, is even more atypical.

I think there is an huge amount of psychological repression/suppression on her part (unconscious, of course), given the fact that she has such intense orgasmic dreams... I think her subconscious is, in fact, very sexual/lustful. This points to CST rather than different wiring, as does the fact that she can't even conceive of any other way of thinking about sex.

Honestly, I think that you have progressed so far together is absolutely amazing.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

ConanHub said:


> Buddy..... she has a weird view of things
> 
> I love Mrs. C because she makes me laugh and loved me back with everything in her.
> 
> ...


Boom.


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## Music Lover (Feb 9, 2016)

Badsanta, I sorry to hear that you are not completely fulfilled in your relationship. You have already been given some advice, but I just wanted to add my support. Maybe, it will be helpful for you to know that other people have experienced similar issues.

My first partner could only enjoy sex when taken completely out of herself, say, on holiday or some other special occasion. She said to me once "you don't love me, you just want to screw me". Intimacy changed from a shared experience to something unsavory that I was trying to impose on her. I remember lying in bed alongside this beautiful naked woman that I loved feeling frustrated as if I was going to explode. She said things that made me feel like a pervert just for wanting normal intimacy.

When the relationship finally collapsed she wouldn't accept that there had been anything wrong - it had just been that she was uncomfortable having sex due to illness. She made a very awkward attempt to prove that she could satisfy me, but it was too late because by then I'd fallen out of love with her. 

Fundamentally, she had brainwashed me into believing the fault was all mine. As consequence, my second partner told me that I was very conservative in bed when we first got together. It came as a surprise that she wanted to experiment with things that would have disgusted my first partner. After we split up, my first partner tragically died in an accident on the roads and guilt over the failure of the relationship was still affecting me a decade later.

My current wife was savvy enough to spot the signs and recommended counselling for my unresolved grief issues. The counsellor pointed out to me that my first partner had failed to meet my needs just as much as I had failed to meet hers. At one point, my wife said to me that I needed to understand that women do enjoy sex just as much as men.

I now wonder if some form of formal marriage guidance might helped my first relationship. It's not too late for you and your wife to resolve this. Unfortunately, the way you are both going at present appears to be unsustainable.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

FeministInPink said:


> @badsanta The thing that I find curious about your wife is this: it appears that in her mind, there is zero connection between love/emotion and sex. This is atypical in that even those whom staunchly assert that they do not associate sex with love tend to have an about face when they get the feels for someone, and then all of a sudden, yes! they are indeed connected; it just took the right person to flip that switch. But your wife, whether due to different wiring or CST, has never been able to make that connection. More so, the fact that she has never experienced lust towards any other person, and is essentially asexual, is even more atypical.
> 
> I think there is an huge amount of psychological repression/suppression on her part (unconscious, of course), given the fact that she has such intense orgasmic dreams... I think her subconscious is, in fact, very sexual/lustful. This points to CST rather than different wiring, as does the fact that she can't even conceive of any other way of thinking about sex.
> 
> ...


Part of the issue was likely that she was raised extraordinarily conservative with Catholic beliefs. At the end of the day I am thankful for many of those beliefs and morals because they have served our family well during difficult times. The progress we have made is likely more attributed to her religious upbringing than I would attribute it to problems for being too conservative regarding sexuality. Catholics are good at shaming behaviors deemed problematic and my wife would argue that shame is a good thing that prevents us all from behaving like selfish idiots.

If I had to put my finger on a the source of what could be at the root of many of our issues is that I believe my wife experienced her sexual awakening with me as I was her first. Because at that time I already knew myself sexually, was experienced and had a much healthier appetite than her, it possibly did not give her a chance to ever experience much of what it is to be curious and desire sex (because at that time we just did it a little while ago, up to three times a day). 

The one time in our marriage she does identify with being aroused and initiating was when she was pregnant. Unfortunately during that time I was under a lot of stress with a new job, and the idea that something might hurt the baby was something I could not get past and I rejected her sexual advances during that time. She says that hurt a lot and that she never got past it. So if that was her first opportunity to embrace desire and express it with me, well I probably messed that up and turned it into a stressful and unpleasant experience of her feeling unloved and extremely vulnerable. 

As for someone with atypical behavior and different wiring, I have to raise my hand and admit that I likely fit into that category more so than my wife. Much of what I perceive as her problems could be more so a reflection of my own problematic behaviors, miscommunications, and subsequent arguments as we try to understand one another. 

I have always appreciated your feedback and thoughts over the years by the way!

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Music Lover said:


> Badsanta, I sorry to hear that you are not completely fulfilled in your relationship. You have already been given some advice, but I just wanted to add my support. Maybe, it will be helpful for you to know that other people have experienced similar issues.
> 
> My first partner could only enjoy sex when taken completely out of herself, say, on holiday or some other special occasion. She said to me once "you don't love me, you just want to screw me". Intimacy changed from a shared experience to something unsavory that I was trying to impose on her. I remember lying in bed alongside this beautiful naked woman that I loved feeling frustrated as if I was going to explode. She said things that made me feel like a pervert just for wanting normal intimacy.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your feedback. Much of your comments ring a bell, but one area that is different is that I let go of all my shame many years ago. I used to and was made to feel like I was the problem. I now never apologize for how I feel about things when I am around my wife but instead playfully compliment her for being too darn sexy. I also do not blame her for any of my frustrations as I can manage my desire much better now that we default to a schedule if things don't happen naturally. So at the same time I have had to give my wife the same opportunity to not be ashamed for having zero libido or me making her feel like that is a problem. One of my main goals is to be, "OK this is who we are, how do we make each other feel loved?" 

For my wife, lust and arousal are just not in her categories of what she considers love languages. She needs other things from me in order to feel loved. 

Now if I could flip a switch and be in a different marriage where my wife had a very positive attitude towards arousal and knew herself well enough to encourage me to enjoy that part of our relationship on a different level, who knows if I would change all my opinions and point out that I am an idiot for staying in a challenging marriage. For now and for not knowing anything different, I am happy and feel my wife and I actually feel positive for embracing our challenges and managing to get to where we are today. Was it easy? No! Do I still struggle? Yes, but I would describe it as a meaningful struggle that I have learned to enjoy because it pushes me to learn more about myself and human nature. 

Again thanks for your feedback as I do find all perspectives helpful. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Things in our marriage work well. My wife has what might be described as a responsive desire that I find to be at times superior to that of my own if you ask me. However I don't think I'll ever convince her that my desire to be with her is out of love as she feels it is fueled exclusively by hormones. *When I initiate, it is rarely out of what I would call a hormonal urge, but more out of wanting to feel close* and that I just know everything in the hormonal department happens so easily and naturally for me once she finally accepts my advances.


Per the bolded, I do wonder how many people (especially those on the lower drive side) assume that when someone initiates, it is only because they are horny. Similar to you, there are plenty of times that I initiate where it has a lot more to do with wanting to be close with my W and not b/c I want to jump her bones. I would guess my W views this the opposite. As her drive has gone down, so has her initiating. This past weekend she pretty much jumped me as soon as we got to bed. We were talking afterwards and the topic of initiating came up. The reason why she initiated was simply b/c she said she had wanted me all day. Otherwise, she said she doesn't really know why she has a hard time initiating. I really think she views it where the only reason why she would initiate is if she is in the same state of mind she was this weekend (which isn't too common). I am guessing as well she thinks every time I initiate it must be b/c I have to have her at that moment (there are those moments, but plenty of times where that isn't the case).


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Per the bolded, I do wonder how many people (especially those on the lower drive side) assume that when someone initiates, it is only because they are horny.


Yes. AND I would add, and what if it were? Why is that bad? I mean, I don't fail to understand why people feel that way. I used to! I just think it is too bad.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> Per the bolded, I do wonder how many people (especially those on the lower drive side) assume that when someone initiates, it is only because they are horny. Similar to you, there are plenty of times that I initiate where it has a lot more to do with wanting to be close with my W and not b/c I want to jump her bones. I would guess my W views this the opposite. As her drive has gone down, so has her initiating. This past weekend she pretty much jumped me as soon as we got to bed. We were talking afterwards and the topic of initiating came up. The reason why she initiated was simply b/c she said she had wanted me all day. Otherwise, she said she doesn't really know why she has a hard time initiating. I really think she views it where the only reason why she would initiate is if she is in the same state of mind she was this weekend (which isn't too common). I am guessing as well she thinks every time I initiate it must be b/c I have to have her at that moment (there are those moments, but plenty of times where that isn't the case).


Your feedback perhaps make me wonder if the following cliche is just from the wrong perspective:



> Men need sex to feel close and women need to feel close to have sex.


In reality from what I have read is that many men need to feel close to a spouse, but perhaps instinctively choose sex as a way to help make that happen. Whereas there are also women that need sex but perhaps instinctively prevent themselves from acting on those feelings until there is closeness. Here might be two examples:



> Man and woman argue. As a result the man wants to have sex to help heal the relationship and feel close again.
> 
> Man and woman argue. As a result the woman may want to have sex but chooses to withhold her desire because she does not feel close enough.


You know @EllisRedding what if the stereotypical propensity for a woman to withhold desire when harboring resentment towards a spouse causes feelings of sexual desire to become discombobulated as if something unassociated with love. Whereas men are not stereotypically known for refusing sex during times of harboring resentful sentiments in a marriage but I am sure there are those that do.

I think even EleGirl has mentioned that one of the most common reasons for a marriage to become sex starved is due to a wife harboring resentment. What happens to hormones during that time, do they magically disappear? Or is this where hormones and libido for women struggling with low desire become disassociated from one another? As in, "I love my husband and will only ever have sex with him, but not right now because he has being an ass. Go away hormones and desire, you are not needed right now!" 










...then you take a woman that was harboring resentment and withholding sex for long enough that it altered her perception of hormones and you possibly get... "I love my husband and he is the kindest man in the world, but I just no longer have a desire for sex." All the hormones are still there! Sex can be very enjoyable when it occurs. But perhaps the notion of desire has become skewed over time into something no longer easily recognized. When it does happen, it is associated with something that is not associated with love and a desire for closeness. 

Just some candid thoughts....

Badsanta


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

badsanta said:


> My wife complains that my libido would be the same even if we never met and I would have married someone else. Therefore my desire to be with her is just hormones and not representative of what should be described as love.
> 
> The debate surrounding the above topic has played out over many years and I know my wife struggles with it for a few reasons:
> 
> ...


So then couldn't the arguement be made that you are just a provider of income and handy man around the house and that any man would do?

Since she has no intimate/sexual feelings for anyone, then couldn't it be argued that there is nothing special about you and that any man with a job and a hammer and pair of pliers would qualify to be her husband?

So why is she married to you if any man can pay a rent check and unclog a toilet? 

Have you asked her that???


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> So then couldn't the arguement be made that you are just a provider of income and handy man around the house and that any man would do?
> 
> Since she has no intimate/sexual feelings for anyone, then couldn't it be argued that there is nothing special about you and that any man with a job and a hammer and pair of pliers would qualify to be her husband?
> 
> ...


There can be genuine love without sexual feelings. I'm sure all of us have people that we love deeply and would die for even though we don't have sexual feelings for them (e.g. relatives). People like our parents and siblings fill places in our hearts. They aren't just people we have around to fill seats at Thanksgiving.

But I certainly agree that it can be a struggle to *feel* loved if your spouse doesn't want to be intimate with you. Objectively there can be true love, but the person who is sexually unsatisfied will often be dealing with emotions which make them feel like they aren't loved. That doesn't necessarily mean that their spouse doesn't love them. I guess it might be categorized as a passionless or affectionless love. It's sort of like the love siblings have for each other. 

For someone trying to work through this, it would probably be harmful to the relationship to imply their spouse doesn't love them because they didn't want sex. It would be more appropriate to say that you don't feel loved without intimacy. Framing it like that would make it more conducive for the LD spouse to strive to demonstrate their love in a receptive way rather than trying to prove that love is there at all.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> So then couldn't the arguement be made that you are just a provider of income and handy man around the house and that any man would do?
> 
> Since she has no intimate/sexual feelings for anyone, then couldn't it be argued that there is nothing special about you and that any man with a job and a hammer and pair of pliers would qualify to be her husband?
> 
> ...


I do make enough to be the sole provider, but she makes more than me. I remember telling someone that with a similar line of thinking as you and his eyes got real big, he got really quiet, he then slowly leaned over and whispered in my ear, "dude there aint nothing wrong with that!" 



Badsanta


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

wilson said:


> There can be genuine love without sexual feelings. I'm sure all of us have people that we love deeply and would die for even though we don't have sexual feelings for them (e.g. relatives). People like our parents and siblings fill places in our hearts. They aren't just people we have around to fill seats at Thanksgiving.
> 
> But I certainly agree that it can be a struggle to *feel* loved if your spouse doesn't want to be intimate with you. Objectively there can be true love, but the person who is sexually unsatisfied will often be dealing with emotions which make them feel like they aren't loved. That doesn't necessarily mean that their spouse doesn't love them. I guess it might be categorized as a passionless or affectionless love. It's sort of like the love siblings have for each other.
> 
> For someone trying to work through this, it would probably be harmful to the relationship to imply their spouse doesn't love them because they didn't want sex. It would be more appropriate to say that you don't feel loved without intimacy. Framing it like that would make it more conducive for the LD spouse to strive to demonstrate their love in a receptive way rather than trying to prove that love is there at all.


My point was argument could be turned back on to her.

Since she said he would want to have sex with whoever he was with, then there for he wasn't truly in love with 'her' and was only responding to his hormonal impulses.

My point is that he could turn that back on to her and say since she would want whoever she was with to bring home a paycheck and fix the leaky fawcet, then does that mean she doesn't really love 'him'.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

oldshirt said:


> My point was argument could be turned back on to her.
> 
> Since she said he would want to have sex with whoever he was with, then there for he wasn't truly in love with 'her' and was only responding to his hormonal impulses.
> 
> My point is that he could turn that back on to her and say since she would want whoever she was with to bring home a paycheck and fix the leaky fawcet, then does that mean she doesn't really love 'him'.


I have said exactly that. That's a piece of logic she did grasp, and it did earn some understanding.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

badsanta said:


> I do make enough to be the sole provider, but she makes more than me. I remember telling someone that with a similar line of thinking as you and his eyes got real big, he got really quiet, he then slowly leaned over and whispered in my ear, "dude there aint nothing wrong with that!"
> 
> 
> 
> Badsanta


Ok but I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. 

My point is you can use her own argument against her as your own counter point. 

If she is saying that you'd want to have sex with whoever else you may have ended up with - then there whatever benefits she is getting from being married, she would want from someone else as well.

Pot calling the kettle black here. 

What I haven't quite connected the dots on here is what was your wife's purpose of saying this to you??

Was she saying that since she wasn't somehow the only woman in the universe that you'd want to have sex with, does that mean your sex life should be null and void?


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> I have said exactly that. That's a piece of logic she did grasp, and it did earn some understanding.


It is a compelling argument lol


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> What I haven't quite connected the dots on here is what was your wife's purpose of saying this to you??
> 
> Was she saying that since she wasn't somehow the only woman in the universe that you'd want to have sex with, does that mean your sex life should be null and void?


I think my wife said that to me comes from a place of her feeling sexually inadequate to ever make me happy. As in, "I can never give you enough, wouldn't you have been happier married to someone else?" Throughout the later parts of our marriage I have tried everything to increase the frequency of intimacy, but above a certain amount she struggles with that. 

The only counter argument would be to argue that because she does not lust after me then there must be no physical attraction. I've made that argument before and she says that she would have never married me unless she found me extremely handsome and attractive and that I still am to her. 

A further point resulting of that argument is that physical attraction ≠ sexual arousal. 

As for what she gets out of the marriage that would be considered give and take in exchange for sex... that question honestly does not make any sense to me. Sexual intimacy is something we share and we both enjoy the experience. The nature of how we perceive it and are motivated to pursue it is just different and sometimes problematic. We use humor a lot as opposed to arguing these days, but sometimes there are a few things we each still struggle to understand and appreciate about each other. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

The problem is that there is real truth to here statement, you *would* be a lot happier with someone just like her, but with a compatible interest in sex Of course such a person may not exist.

Its part of the general misery of LD/HD relationships. 



badsanta said:


> I think my wife said that to me comes from a place of her feeling sexually inadequate to ever make me happy. As in, "I can never give you enough, wouldn't you have been happier married to someone else?" Throughout the later parts of our marriage I have tried everything to increase the frequency of intimacy, but above a certain amount she struggles with that.
> 
> snip
> Badsanta


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Alright, this may be way off base. I'm going to post it anyway.


B.S., 

You need to learn how to bring the kink out in her. She's repressed it. Never ever speak of it outside. Only get her revved up and do it. Don't make her think of what she wants. Just get her approval first. Then, 



.


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

Married 24 year, now divorced....my take on you original post is your wife was saying you could have sex with anyone, that she did not feel special to you which happens when we ladies see that your interests are with other women. Deny it, but we see it.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

AVR1962 said:


> Married 24 year, now divorced....my take on you original post is your wife was saying you could have sex with anyone, that she did not feel special to you which happens when we ladies see that your interests are with other women. Deny it, but we see it.


So then it can become a chicken vs the egg type of thing. 

If one's wife loses (or never really had) sexual desire for him, then it's only natural that eventually he will become interested in other women. 

I don't necessarily mean that in an adulterous way per se. But if your W is not sexually responsive to you and has no desire or attraction for you, it's just a matter of time before you start to wonder what else may be out there for you. 

The potential for it spiraling into a vicious cycle becomes pretty great. 

While that while conversation struck me as kind of odd and messed up - in a way Mrs Santa was correct. If he was with someone else, he WOULD want to have a sex life with that person and she is also correct in that if she can't desire him engage with him sexually in manner he needs, then he may be better off with someone more compatible.

That may be a whacked up discussion, but it's also kind of a no-brainer.


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## ConanHub (Aug 9, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Per the bolded, I do wonder how many people (especially those on the lower drive side) assume that when someone initiates, it is only because they are horny. Similar to you, there are plenty of times that I initiate where it has a lot more to do with wanting to be close with my W and not b/c I want to jump her bones. I would guess my W views this the opposite. As her drive has gone down, so has her initiating. This past weekend she pretty much jumped me as soon as we got to bed. We were talking afterwards and the topic of initiating came up. The reason why she initiated was simply b/c she said she had wanted me all day. Otherwise, she said she doesn't really know why she has a hard time initiating. I really think she views it where the only reason why she would initiate is if she is in the same state of mind she was this weekend (which isn't too common). I am guessing as well she thinks every time I initiate it must be b/c I have to have her at that moment (there are those moments, but plenty of times where that isn't the case).


I love being close just for intimacy as well but I'm also horny all the time so that makes it easy and moot for me.:grin2:


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

AVR1962 said:


> Married 24 year, now divorced....my take on you original post is your wife was saying you could have sex with anyone, that she did not feel special to you which happens when we ladies see that your interests are with other women. Deny it, but we see it.


When my wife and I were first dating, all of my friends did happen to be extremely attractive females that in reality were all "friends" that I curated as possible love interests to see if there was any potential. She was extremely jealous about that and demanded that I needed to stop being friends with anyone that was a friend just because they were attractive. During that time I would describe my wife as having much more motivation to be intimate with me.

Fast forward decades and in real life I am not flirtatious towards anyone. If anything my wife asks me to try and be nice when we are around other people, particularly her female friends. She thinks I am notorious for annoying people and making them feel like I can't stand to be around them. 

@AVR1962 I think you might be onto something. Perhaps I do need to show interest again in other women and make my wife a little jealous. I know this is backwards to what you are trying to convey, but we all like to know our mates are desirable. Sometimes a little jealousy can be a good thing! The book Mating in Captivity strongly suggests that a 3rd party should be allowed to impact the dynamics of the marital bed to encourage competitive instincts. I totally disregarded that chapter as totally stupid, but now I will give it a second read!

Thanks for the advice, even though you probably did not get the response from me that you might expect. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## AVR1962 (May 30, 2012)

oldshirt said:


> So then it can become a chicken vs the egg type of thing.
> 
> If one's wife loses (or never really had) sexual desire for him, then it's only natural that eventually he will become interested in other women.
> 
> ...


I think you missed my point.


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

badsanta said:


> When my wife and I were first dating, all of my friends did happen to be extremely attractive females that in reality were all "friends" that I curated as possible love interests to see if there was any potential. She was extremely jealous about that and demanded that I needed to stop being friends with anyone that was a friend just because they were attractive. During that time I would describe my wife as having much more motivation to be intimate with me.
> 
> Fast forward decades and in real life I am not flirtatious towards anyone. If anything my wife asks me to try and be nice when we are around other people, particularly her female friends. She thinks I am notorious for annoying people and making them feel like I can't stand to be around them.
> 
> ...


A lot if people misinterpret and misunderstand the role 3rd parties play.

Jealousy is a toxic force in the universe and you showing interest in other women will usually decrease your value and actually make her think less of you. 

What gets people's head out if their butt and may motivate them to step up to the plate is not you showing interest - that will harm her opinion of you.

What makes an impact is attractive women showing an interest in you. 

Jealousy is rarely ever beneficial but realizing that you have other viable options and can replace her at will is what is the actual motivation.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

oldshirt said:


> A lot if people misinterpret and misunderstand the role 3rd parties play.
> 
> Jealousy is a toxic force in the universe and you showing interest in other women will usually decrease your value and actually make her think less of you.
> 
> ...


I'm re-reading Esther Perel's chapter in Mating in Captivity on "Rethinking Infidelity" as it is very well written from a couples therapy point of view that advocates for maintaining desire in monogamous long term relationships. 

I'll follow up on my thoughts once I digest and research as it pertains to me.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

AVR1962 said:


> Married 24 year, now divorced....my take on you original post is your wife was saying you could have sex with anyone, that she did not feel special to you which happens when we ladies see that your interests are with other women. Deny it, but we see it.


OK @AVR1962 I re-read Esther Perel's chapter on "Rethinking Fidelity" and I can now remember where I lost interest in it. Essentially it gets into the idea of exploring infidelity and promiscuity via *role play* within the context of a monogamous marriage. I have actually read a lot about that topic in other psychology books that take that a step further to address the various "modes" of sexuality:



sensation based 
partner based 
role play

Generally speaking from a psychology point of view, those modes do not work well if mixed certain ways or you try to change someone's primary mode. Perel's advice would actually work very well for couples that have already tendency for role play bit have never learned to embrace it for whatever reason. But for couples that are primarily partner based or sensation based (my wife and I), the notion of role play is simply not compatible with what drives us to be together.

One example in Esther's book was that a wife very well knew her husband would always look at blondes. So she put on a blonde wig and picked him up for lunch at work. All his coworkers thought he was having an affair and he would brag about it. Keeping up that charade proved to be fun for both the husband and wife to help make things exciting again. 

The Dumpheys do stuff like this all the time on the TV show Modern Family:










...and the idea is that it works because it keeps things fun an exciting for both to try and keep the lie going without other people noticing. 

As for me... not interested in that. But thanks for making me rethink and re-read about that again as it did get me to think more about my wife's past behaviors when I was frequently around many other women that would often be flirtatious with me. Awkwardly these days I tend to get hit on by men all the time and my wife finds it hilarious because I am usually oblivious to it! 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

OK, I went back and read some PHD research from "Come as You Are" on the topic of desire and found this interesting:



> Some people find that they begin to want sex only after sexy things are already happening. And they're normal.


That statement perfectly describes my wife. It is defined as responsive desire and is considered perfectly normal and healthy. Here is the breakdown:

SPONTANEOUS DESIRE: 75% Men & 15% WOMEN
RESPONSIVE DESIRE: 5% MEN & 30% WOMEN
ALL OTHERS = CONTEXT DEPENDENT (which is over half % of women)

The research goes onto say that almost all forms of desire are subject to some degree of context but much of that relates to sexual inhibitions and things that cause lack of desire such as stress and other turn offs. So even those with exclusively responsive desires can still experience arousal problems when conditions are problematic. 

So it is fair to say that those with a responsive desire probably struggle to empathize with spontaneous desire or understand how should can be attributed. An example would be that my wife very well knows that she responds very well to me once she is receptive to me initiating. She has let me know that it is my responsibility to get her aroused as she can NOT do that on her own. Meanwhile where did my arousal come from? From my wife's point of view she did not do anything to get me aroused. I also have a history of looking at porn, so that must be it she might think? It also explains her confusion for asking if I need to use porn in order to masturbate as if that is how I am activating my response to become aroused as opposed to being aroused first and using porn to distract myself from having just been rejected by my wife. 

OK, things are starting to add up!

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

badsanta said:


> The research goes onto say that almost all forms of desire are subject to some degree of context but much of that relates to sexual inhibitions and things that cause lack of desire such as stress and other turn offs. So even those with exclusively responsive desires can still experience arousal problems when conditions are problematic.


What I find, someone who is LD or RD, anything less then ideal conditions can be problematic. 



badsanta said:


> So it is fair to say that those with a responsive desire probably struggle to empathize with spontaneous desire or understand how should can be attributed.


I think this could be true when you are looking at two opposing views in general. If you haven't experienced the other view, it is that much harder to empathize. Where an LD has never had a strong drive, it is hard for them to understand the need for sex (maybe they feel like they are being used). Conversely, someone who has only ever been HD may be unable to empathize with an LD (what's the problem, I don't get why you don't want sex?). Unless my W got a shot of Test or something else to ramp up her drive, I don't believe she will ever be able to fully understand my POV. For my part, since I did go through a patch where I was low drive, it has made it easier for me to understand a little better where my W is coming from. At the end of the day it comes down to communication and a willingness to work with your SO to hopefully meet some common ground. I am still working on this aspect with my W.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> What I find, someone who is LD or RD, anything less then ideal conditions can be problematic.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this could be true when you are looking at two opposing views in general. If you haven't experienced the other view, it is that much harder to empathize. Where an LD has never had a strong drive, it is hard for them to understand the need for sex (maybe they feel like they are being used). Conversely, someone who has only ever been HD may be unable to empathize with an LD (what's the problem, I don't get why you don't want sex?). Unless my W got a shot of Test or something else to ramp up her drive, I don't believe she will ever be able to fully understand my POV. For my part, since I did go through a patch where I was low drive, it has made it easier for me to understand a little better where my W is coming from. At the end of the day it comes down to communication and a willingness to work with your SO to hopefully meet some common ground. I am still working on this aspect with my W.


*Very good points!*


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## Diana7 (Apr 19, 2016)

personofinterest said:


> I would have 2 thoughts:
> 
> 1. If he no longer uses porn, this isn't valid
> 
> 2. If his porn use stems from her refusal, it may be wrong, but she bears some responsibility


I dont believe that we should ever blame others for what we do.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

Dan Fogelberg
Lonely In Love

Some say that love is its own
Love is its own reward
But I can't help but believe
There's got to be more.
*A man needs a woman
To have and to hold
To love him in body
As well as in soul
I need your desire
Where did the fire go?*
I keep trying to sleep
But sleep won't be mine tonight
There's so much sorrow inside
And baby, I don't know why.
I give you your freedom
I give you my love
I give all I have every time that we touch
I don't know, baby,
Maybe I give too much.
Now I'm lonely in love
Why must I be lonely in love
I'm so lonely in love
Baby why must I be lonely
Why must I be lonely in love.
I know that love carries no
She carries no guarantees
But still I can't seem to
Find a reason that I can believe in
You said to be patient
And give you some room
You said you had changes
You need to work through
But the longer I wait
The farther I feel from you.
Now I'm lonely in love
Why must I be lonely in love
I'm so lonely in love
Baby why must I be lonely
Why must I be lonely in love.
Now I'm lonely in love
Why must I be lonely in love
I'm so lonely in love
Baby why must I be lonely
Why must I be lonely in love.
Baby, you're my one and only
Why do you keep me lonely in love.


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

EllisRedding said:


> What I find, someone who is LD or RD, anything less then ideal conditions can be problematic.
> 
> 
> 
> I think this could be true when you are looking at two opposing views in general. If you haven't experienced the other view, it is that much harder to empathize. Where an LD has never had a strong drive, it is hard for them to understand the need for sex (maybe they feel like they are being used). Conversely, someone who has only ever been HD may be unable to empathize with an LD (what's the problem, I don't get why you don't want sex?). Unless my W got a shot of Test or something else to ramp up her drive, I don't believe she will ever be able to fully understand my POV. For my part, since I did go through a patch where I was low drive, it has made it easier for me to understand a little better where my W is coming from. At the end of the day it comes down to communication and a willingness to work with your SO to hopefully meet some common ground. I am still working on this aspect with my W.


Regarding the differences in drives and the gulf it creates:

It seems the LD, in her (reverse genders throughout if you like) lack of ability to empathize, is prone to jumping to conclusions, such as presented in this thread; that he only wants her for her lady parts. It seems especially easy to draw the conclusion that, if he wants more frequency or, God forbid, something other than straight missionary once in a while, that he's some kind of pervert or sexual deviant. And the bottom line resulting from all this is a belief that the problem is exclusively his; ergo, she need not adapt in any way or even just communicate since she's the "normal" one and he's the freak. 

Now, is there a parallel looking the other way? I suppose some HDs see their LD partners as freaks themselves, sexually repressed, frigid or whatever label they choose to put on it, and therefore it's up to them to to "fix" themselves. 

Although I would say the latter is more often an accurate representation as our often repressive society in general and especially certain religious sects surround what should be a positive thing with such shame (especially with regard to women).

(does anybody else find it ironic that "sex" and "sects" are phonetically identical?)

Conversely, though, I would not be surprised to see that the ubiquitous and freely available hard core porn does give many men unrealistic expectations.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Rocky Mountain Yeti said:


> It seems the LD, in her (reverse genders throughout if you like) lack of ability to empathize, is prone to jumping to conclusions, such as presented in this thread; that he only wants her for her lady parts.


My W and I were talking a few weeks ago. I was trying to explain to her how sex helps me feel connected to her and she did admit that part of that bothers her. Simply put, she is in part unable to empathize with me


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Diana7 said:


> I dont believe that we should ever blame others for what we do.


Totally agree with that! A long time ago when I had issues with porn I would often get angry and blame my wife for rejecting my advances before going and using porn.

In hindsight probably one of the absolute worse things I could have done!!!!

Today I do not get angry with her, and if she knows that she is not available I definitely do not get angry with her. Instead I might ask her to give me a little something to think about and compliment her on how easily she can get my motor running. My wife now enjoys whispering all sorts of things into my ears to drive me crazy. She usually just encourages me to try and wait for her.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> My W and I were talking a few weeks ago. I was trying to explain to her how sex helps me feel connected to her and she did admit that part of that bothers her. Simply put, she is in part unable to empathize with me


Same conversation with my wife. If anything when I desire her, she says she begins to feel hunted as if I am waiting to pounce on her the first moment that she has free time. To her that feels disconnecting, especially if sexual intimacy is hurried as a result. 

In my wife's words she says she needs to feel connected BEFORE she is able to get aroused and be intimate with me. In reality this involves 45 minutes of "listening" to her talk about tax preparation, household finances, family drama, upcoming doctor's appointments, household repairs, diet restrictions, exercise schedules, and just about everything you can possibly imagine that totally will kill my libido.... THEN we begin from zero, myself included.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Same conversation with my wife. If anything when I desire her, she says she begins to feel hunted as if I am waiting to pounce on her the first moment that she has free time. To her that feels disconnecting, especially if sexual intimacy is hurried as a result.
> 
> In my wife's words she says she needs to feel connected BEFORE she is able to get aroused and be intimate with me. In reality this involves 45 minutes of "listening" to her talk about tax preparation, household finances, family drama, upcoming doctor's appointments, household repairs, diet restrictions, exercise schedules, and just about everything you can possibly imagine that totally will kill my libido.... THEN we begin from zero, myself included.
> 
> ...


I think for my W, in an ideal world, whether we haven't had sex in a week or a month, it would make no difference in how connected I feel towards her (i.e. she should get all the benefits of when I feel connected, even when sex, which is in part what helps me feel connected to her, is not there...). Part of this thinking is just an easy way to excuse yourself from making any sort of effort IMO. Earlier in our marriage she stressed several times the importance of us having an active sex life lol


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Same conversation with my wife. If anything when I desire her, she says she begins to feel hunted as if I am waiting to pounce on her the first moment that she has free time. To her that feels disconnecting, especially if sexual intimacy is hurried as a result.


What is weird is that I can totally see both sides of this discussion. It took me quite some time to understand this feeling of connection because it seemed to me to occur regardless of my mental and emotional presence for it. 



> In my wife's words she says she needs to feel connected BEFORE she is able to get aroused and be intimate with me. In reality this involves 45 minutes of "listening" to her talk about tax preparation, household finances, family drama, upcoming doctor's appointments, household repairs, diet restrictions, exercise schedules, and just about everything you can possibly imagine that totally will kill my libido.... THEN we begin from zero, myself included.
> 
> Regards,
> Badsanta


I think a lot of people put different aspects of their lives into little containers and don't see their connection. I have ventured before the opinion that your wife has some pretty old-schooly notions about sexuality. What she probably needs more than anything is to feel SAFE. Safe, perhaps, to know that she is not JUST a vessel for your lust. Some of us came to a place to enjoy being a part of lust. Not everyone gets there.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> What is weird is that I can totally see both sides of this discussion. It took me quite some time to understand this feeling of connection because it seemed to me to occur regardless of my mental and emotional presence for it.
> 
> I think a lot of people put different aspects of their lives into little containers and don't see their connection. I have ventured before the opinion that your wife has some pretty old-schooly notions about sexuality. What she probably needs more than anything is to feel SAFE. Safe, perhaps, to know that she is not JUST a vessel for your lust. Some of us came to a place to enjoy being a part of lust. Not everyone gets there.


What has been very frustrating to me in the past which seems similar to some of the things @EllisRedding might say is that my wife and I will connect emotionally and really enjoy spending time together and talking about things and enjoy relaxing. But for her this does not naturally segue into physical intimacy at times when I am trying to be patient and wait for her to be receptive. It is all on me to make it happen. Her reaction of me initiating physical intimacy comes across like this, "OK here is this thing my husband wants to do that is about to take up a huge chunk of time, is this the best time to go ahead and get this out of the way or would tomorrow work better..."

Despite that, if I make it happen we both have an out of this world experience. She also knows that given a certain amount of time without me bothering her that it just needs to happen, but that is only because I have had to communicate how important it is to me.

If I totally withdrew and it is just up to her. Perhaps once a month she would be playful and initiate. When this has happened before I'll ask if she was desiring for us to be physically intimate and she says no that she was just feeling emotionally needy. 

HELLO! That is pretty much how it works for me too, but if I look needy it is just not attractive and she rejects me. So I have to keep myself together, be strong, and just be confident with a positive attitude when I need to make things happen. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> OK, I went back and read some PHD research from "Come as You Are" on the topic of desire and found this interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What other kinds of desire is there? Just curious.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wilson (Nov 5, 2012)

badsanta said:


> In my wife's words she says she needs to feel connected BEFORE she is able to get aroused and be intimate with me. In reality this involves 45 minutes of "listening" to her talk about tax preparation, household finances, family drama, upcoming doctor's appointments, household repairs, diet restrictions, exercise schedules, and just about everything you can possibly imagine that totally will kill my libido.... THEN we begin from zero, myself included.


It may be worthwhile to examine your feelings and level of interest in these scenarios compared to when you were first dating. It kind of mirrors how she feels about intimacy. You might say "She enjoyed intimacy when we were first dating, but now she doesn't care and just wants it to be over." But she might say "When we were first dating, he was really interested in hearing about my day and what was on my mind, but now he doesn't care and he just listens because he has to." Her lack of intimacy may actually be linked to your disinterest in what she's talking about. That may create an emotional distance that then leads to lack of intimacy.

If typical, you probably used to enjoy talking with her about that kind of stuff because you really enjoyed being with her. It didn't matter what she talked about, you were just happy to be spending time with her. A lot of that was your hormones telling you to get close to her so you could get physical. Those hormones aren't the same now, so you may need to work a bit to get back to that kind of relationship. So when she talks about her day or whatever, try to show real interest. Don't just say "Mmmm hmmm" at appropriate times and wait for her to finish talking. Really engage with her as if what she's saying is the most interesting thing to you. Likely that will improve the emotional intimacy connection which will make it easier for physical intimacy to happen.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Same conversation with my wife. If anything when I desire her, she says she begins to feel hunted as if I am waiting to pounce on her the first moment that she has free time. To her that feels disconnecting, especially if sexual intimacy is hurried as a result.
> 
> In my wife's words she says she needs to feel connected BEFORE she is able to get aroused and be intimate with me. In reality this involves 45 minutes of "listening" to her talk about tax preparation, household finances, family drama, upcoming doctor's appointments, household repairs, diet restrictions, exercise schedules, and just about everything you can possibly imagine that totally will kill my libido.... THEN we begin from zero, myself included.
> 
> ...


I wonder if you feel this way @badsanta . It seems like you now have some sort of mental checklist. If you even want the possibility that your W gets in the mood for intimacy, you need to do x/y/z off the checklist first, and maybe just maybe (not a guarantee) she responds. A lot of times this can be mentally exhausting for yourself, to the point where it is not worth it (or as you mention, you are now in a state where your libido has been killed). 

In cases like this, it gets dangerous where basically one person has complete control. Maybe one day you are doing all the right things but your W isn't in the mood, so she moves the goalposts (you did x/y/z but I really wanted some B as well...). 

IMO, if you are going to have control like that, then you need to be responsive just about every single time. If not, then you have to at least make an effort at other times to help balance things out.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

InMyPrime said:


> What other kinds of desire is there? Just curious.


Essentially this is it:



> SPONTANEOUS DESIRE: 75% Men & 15% WOMEN
> RESPONSIVE DESIRE: 5% MEN & 30% WOMEN
> ALL OTHERS = CONTEXT DEPENDENT (which is over half % of women)


But the research goes on to say that desire ≠ drive and that is a topic where many people argue and get confused. Since Nagoski theorizes that everyone's sexuality has a dual drive model, the things that drive us have somewhat of a cause/effect relationship on desire. 

The dual drive model is a theory that there are things that turn a person on which is only one part of someone's sex drive. Then there are things that turn someone off when is the second part of someone's sex drive. So if you take two people with the exact same turn ons and turn offs but they have different types of desire, each will have a completely different response. 

Having just written this and comparing to the different modes of pleasure that often are attributed to each persons sexuality:



> SENSATION BASED
> PARTNER BASED
> ROLE PLAYING


One could theorize that the different types of desire likely result in one's preferred mode of sexual pleasure:



> SPONTANEOUS DESIRE = SENSATION BASED
> these people know what feels good and want to experience a particular sensation
> 
> RESPONSIVE DESIRE = PARTNER BASED
> ...


Now if you imagine someone has a turn on of muscles. The spontaneous desire person will become self aroused and imagine the sensations of being overpowered. The responsive drive person may feel protected by a strong partner. The role playing person does not need real muscles but instead likes the idea of a super hero costumes and changing personalities representing strength.

Now imagine someone equally turned off by muscles. The spontaneous desire person will become disturbed by someone that is firm as a rock where things should be soft and warm. The responsive drive person may feel that muscles are too often associated with aggressive and risky behaviors. The role playing person does not need real muscles and finds that they distract from being able to take on the role of someone vulnerable such as a damsel in distress scenario.

Just my theories and thoughts from all the reading I do. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

wilson said:


> It may be worthwhile to examine your feelings and level of interest in these scenarios compared to when you were first dating. It kind of mirrors how she feels about intimacy. You might say "She enjoyed intimacy when we were first dating, but now she doesn't care and just wants it to be over." But she might say "When we were first dating, he was really interested in hearing about my day and what was on my mind, but now he doesn't care and he just listens because he has to." Her lack of intimacy may actually be linked to your disinterest in what she's talking about. That may create an emotional distance that then leads to lack of intimacy.
> 
> If typical, you probably used to enjoy talking with her about that kind of stuff because you really enjoyed being with her. It didn't matter what she talked about, you were just happy to be spending time with her. A lot of that was your hormones telling you to get close to her so you could get physical. Those hormones aren't the same now, so you may need to work a bit to get back to that kind of relationship. So when she talks about her day or whatever, try to show real interest. Don't just say "Mmmm hmmm" at appropriate times and wait for her to finish talking. Really engage with her as if what she's saying is the most interesting thing to you. Likely that will improve the emotional intimacy connection which will make it easier for physical intimacy to happen.


Yes and no. My wife has told me that it not so important that I take interest in what she is talking about, but that it is just more important that she has a chance to unload and get things off her chest so to speak. When I do take interest, we sometimes get into a debate whereas she would much rather I just listen and be patient while she vents. Ironically this follows the model that many therapists use in that they take on the role of listening while occasionally asking questions that allow the person talking to self reflect and solve issues from within. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

EllisRedding said:


> I wonder if you feel this way @badsanta . It seems like you now have some sort of mental checklist. If you even want the possibility that your W gets in the mood for intimacy, you need to do x/y/z off the checklist first, and maybe just maybe (not a guarantee) she responds. A lot of times this can be mentally exhausting for yourself, to the point where it is not worth it (or as you mention, you are now in a state where your libido has been killed).
> 
> In cases like this, it gets dangerous where basically one person has complete control. Maybe one day you are doing all the right things but your W isn't in the mood, so she moves the goalposts (you did x/y/z but I really wanted some B as well...).
> 
> IMO, if you are going to have control like that, then you need to be responsive just about every single time. If not, then you have to at least make an effort at other times to help balance things out.


Do I have a checklist of x/y/z? I actually do but it is more like a checklist of things that do NOT work as in do not attempt x/y/z. One in particular is that at the end of the day when my wife is tired, odds are she will have trouble getting aroused so that is not the best time. She asks me instead to try for anytime earlier in the day, and indeed that does work better for her. 

She always needs to spend time talking before anything will go anywhere.... I guess that is the nature of some people have minds that do not stop all the multiple thought processes that go into managing a busy day. Most recently my wife needed to talk about groceries and odd things needed for the house like hornet spray for a nest we have growing up in the front awning. Until those things (whatever they are that particular day) are out there and considered theoretically solved, she can't unwind and relax. 

Compared to when we were dating, life was much easier and simpler back then. 

Badsanta


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Apologies if this comes across as harsh but you seem like a rat in a maze running around trying to find the way out or the right buttons to push so that your wife can toss you a morsel of cheese and say “good boy”. 

If it’s worth it to you then good. Seems tiring to me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Apologies if this comes across as harsh but you seem like a rat in a maze running around trying to find the way out or the right buttons to push so that your wife can toss you a morsel of cheese and say “good boy”.
> 
> If it’s worth it to you then good. Seems tiring to me.


My wife is more like a squirrel-proof bird feeder and I am her favorite squirrel. 










It is not just a morsel of cheese I'm after! She very well knows that 

Cheers, 
Badsanta


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I've heard the "Rat in a maze" phrase before, and I think its pretty applicable. Sometimes there isn't any cheese in the maze. 

There is also the situation I'm in with my wife, where my actions have almost no effect whatsoever on her desire for sex. Sometimes she wants sex, often not, but nothing I do will increase how often she wants it. 

We've reached an unspoken compromise and I don't worry about it anymore. I can do nice things for her without either of us thinking its associated with sex in any way. Thats much better than when she would interpret everything nice I did as an attempt to get sex. 




Elizabeth001 said:


> Apologies if this comes across as harsh but you seem like a rat in a maze running around trying to find the way out or the right buttons to push so that your wife can toss you a morsel of cheese and say “good boy”.
> 
> If it’s worth it to you then good. Seems tiring to me.
> 
> ...


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

uhtred said:


> I've heard the "Rat in a maze" phrase before, and I think its pretty applicable. *Sometimes there isn't any cheese in the maze. *
> 
> There is also the situation I'm in with my wife, where my actions have almost no effect whatsoever on her desire for sex. Sometimes she wants sex, often not, but *nothing I do will increase how often she wants it. *
> 
> We've reached an unspoken compromise and I don't worry about it anymore. I can do nice things for her without either of us thinking its associated with sex in any way. Thats much better than when she would interpret everything nice I did as an attempt to get sex.


Interesting that your idea of "cheese" in the proverbial maze would be to increase your wife's desire for more sex. I understood it to be the idea of my wife just helping me get off regardless of her desire. 

I too have done everything possible in the past to improve my wife's libido. I hoped she would show more interest and drive to do things together physically. Nothing I did would change that. We however never reached an unspoken compromise, but instead I learned to accept my wife is just different than me and I have tried to learn ways to appreciate that. We actually talk about it all the time. I still struggle to understand some things about her, and she still struggles to understand some things about me. 

My number one goal over the past year or two has NOT been aimed at increasing her desire or trying to make sex more spectacular, but instead to make the act of initiation less volatile and stressful. I am pretty sure I could initiate sex anytime I want now and she will accept. The main difference is that I am now familiar enough with her limited ability to respond enthusiastically that I know finding the right frequency is what really makes the difference. 

In terms of her ability to respond... Less is more. If I need more for her it then becomes less. Seems counterintuitive for some reason and that is why I still struggle to understand things.



> But honey if it was just that awesome, why then would you not want to do that more often? ...Because I wouldn't be able to enjoy it again just yet, mostly because you are not as enthusiastic when we do it more often. Do you really want boring sex?"


Badsanta


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Apologies if this comes across as harsh but you seem like a rat in a maze running around trying to find the way out or the right buttons to push so that your wife can toss you a morsel of cheese and say “good boy”.
> 
> If it’s worth it to you then good. Seems tiring to me.


This is true and, no, it wouldn't be worth it to me.

The problem is that, if most guys in this situation said "**** that", that's going to result in a lot of really bad marriages. 

Men usually don't find themselves in this situation until there are kids (as pointed out in another thread, women often lose desire in LTRs and then there are all the changes that pregnancy comes with for a woman), so getting divorced isn't trivial. If this happened before kids, it's the guy's fault. He knew what he was getting into.

I'd go all @Holdingontoit and stop having sex. But we all know how *that* worked out.

First, I'd look inward to see if there was anything I needed to improve; anything that I used to do and have dropped the ball on. 

Once I addressed whatever needed addressing, if nothing changed.... 

I'd ask her if there was anything I needed to work on. If I addressed her reasonable requests to no avail... 

I'd tell her that I have no intention of staying forever in a sexless marriage. If still nothing changed... 

I'd stop initiating sex, stop doing anything only for her benefit and focus on myself and my kids while preparing to leave when the kids are older (if I thought I could get the kids, I wouldn't wait). 

Then I'd let her decide if there's a problem *she* was interested in fixing. 

I'd rather be alone and never have sex again rather than jump through hoops for sex with someone who claims to love me and be interested in my happiness yet won't work with me to resolve issues that are important to me.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

At least in the case of my wife, I've discovered that some LD people do not have "responsive" desire, but almost the opposite. Her desire for sex is almost completely unconnected to anything else, or to anything I do or don't do. It just runs on its own schedule.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

How did I not see this thread? Great topic, gotta read some first. 

😊


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

oldshirt said:


> So then couldn't the arguement be made that you are just a provider of income and handy man around the house and that any man would do?
> 
> Since she has no intimate/sexual feelings for anyone, then couldn't it be argued that there is nothing special about you and that any man with a job and a hammer and pair of pliers would qualify to be her husband?
> 
> ...


I'm about halfway through reading, and this is close to my exact question building as reading. 😉


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> This is true and, no, it wouldn't be worth it to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Hey...that is EXACTLY what I did! I now realize how frustrating and depressing my life REALLY was. 

I had a flashback today of waking up with so much desire that I had to quietly masturbate in the middle of the night for some kind of relief. That was often followed by utter sadness that I had to hide and satisfy my own sexuality in the middle of the night. 

I’m still single but I can masturbate however and whenever I want to and I will never sacrifice that part of me for any man ever again. Eff the head games. 


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

Buddy400 said:


> I'd rather be alone and never have sex again rather than jump through hoops for sex with someone who claims to love me and be interested in my happiness yet won't work with me to resolve issues that are important to me.


That is the whole point of eliminating sex entirely. So there is no more jumping through hoops. And with the "nuclear zone" off the table, the LD spouse may be more willing to work with the HD to resolve other issues that are important to the HD.

Yes, leaving to find someone more sexually compatible is the better long term play. But I think most of us can agree that constantly jumping through hoops or running through a maze and never getting any cheese is the worst of all. At some point, you gotta get off the treadmill even if you are still stuck in the hamster cage.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Yes and no. My wife has told me that it not so important that I take interest in what she is talking about, but that it is just more important that she has a chance to unload and get things off her chest so to speak. When I do take interest, we sometimes get into a debate whereas she would much rather I just listen and be patient while she vents. Ironically this follows the model that many therapists use in that they take on the role of listening while occasionally asking questions that allow the person talking to self reflect and solve issues from within.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Which seems like such a ridiculous concept to me...But if it works, why not...


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

uhtred said:


> I've heard the "Rat in a maze" phrase before, and I think its pretty applicable. Sometimes there isn't any cheese in the maze.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh man. I don’t know how you can live like that..


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Stealing this comment from another thread!



NobodySpecial said:


> When you say you want to understand what makes her horny, I got this kind of uuuuggggghh feeling in my chest. Like how do I press the right buttons.... kind of feel. I know that this last 2 sentence sounds vague. But it is the best I can do.


Since I perceive that my wife struggles with desire we have argued endlessly over the above statement. Historically I would get upset and claim she wasn't open enough to sexuality to even know what she liked... She would insist she enjoyed more the idea of me not knowing what it is she liked so that I would keep trying different things, and that what she likes is the variety of me trying different things. Sometimes my ideas did not work, but when I had a new idea that did work it would make for a great experience for her.... 

For me this is not exactly about, "how do I press the right buttons..." but more so about asking my wife to make an effort to be up front when she is in the mood for something as opposed to leaving me guessing and falling flat on my face with an idea that is just not going to happen. 

It has only been in the past years or so that my wife will finally tell me, "I want this or that" as opposed to leaving me clueless. My way of making that happen is to purposely avoid her buttons and tell her, "well if you want me to do that, your gonna have to ask! Otherwise I am going to do everything but that." 

Of course the dynamics in my marriage are likely much different than @NobodySpecial is likely dealing with, but I find it interesting that the exact same sentiment exists. Perhaps I am misinterpreting and projecting my own issues, but it sounds spot on to something my wife would say to me. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Buddy400 said:


> I'd rather be alone and never have sex again rather than jump through hoops for sex with someone who claims to love me and be interested in my happiness yet won't work with me to resolve issues that are important to me.


A big this ^. I would say for many of us, it is not about trying to turn your SO into someone they are not or expecting things that would be considered unreasonable. A healthy sex life was an important aspect of the relationship that at some point along the way diminished or disappeared. Being with someone who can understand that and is willing to work with you to fix, that is really all most of us are asking for. Acting like nothing is broken or needs to be fixed, that is a major red flag.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

EllisRedding said:


> A big this ^. I would say for many of us, it is not about trying to turn your SO into someone they are not or expecting things that would be considered unreasonable. A healthy sex life was an important aspect of the relationship that at some point along the way diminished or disappeared. Being with someone who can understand that and is willing to work with you to fix, that is really all most of us are asking for. Acting like nothing is broken or needs to be fixed, that is a major red flag.


Buddy, I just have to disagree, with you and a lot of you guys. 

You see, at this stage of life, and I know I am not in a long marriage, but I think the point is not ever letting it get this way in the first place. And, I understand that this happens a lot, but I just don't do that. 

Either, the woman I am with is sexual, and it into me, or she is not with me. And guys, please spare me all the... " yeah but I have a lot invested in this, I cant just leave"... Well yes you can or you can be prepared to. 

With GF, Fiancée actually just have not decided on the date, I told her straight up. I like sex, and I like sex with you. Now, it may not be as great with every other woman as it is with you, but understand... If you are not into me, you need to let me go. Lots of women are, lots of them will continue to be. Hell, every one of her friends wants to screw me as it is right now. Not that I would, but it is there. 

Point is, I set the stage from the start, and it has stayed that way, and it will stay that way or we will not be together, short of some type of sickness or something. 

I keep myself looking good, I am romantic and I know what I am going in the bedroom... So if you want all the good that I bring to the table, you need to be sexual, and into me or I am gone... 

I even hate writing this because all the "Nice guys" come back at me and say, "Come on dude it is not that easy". 

Well yes it is... it is just that easy...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

BluesPower said:


> Buddy, I just have to disagree, with you and a lot of you guys.
> 
> You see, at this stage of life, and I know I am not in a long marriage, but I think the point is not ever letting it get this way in the first place. And, I understand that this happens a lot, but I just don't do that.
> 
> ...


Do you guys have kids by chance?


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

EllisRedding said:


> Do you guys have kids by chance?


You know, I am not going to spend a lot of time on this thread. I am reading it. I think a lot of it is interesting. 

It was never like this with my Ex W either. And we had three kids. 

I am older, I have raised my kids, she has raised her kids. We have kids from 22 to 30 something. 6 Kids between us and 4 Grand Babies. 

This is how I have always been, I don't do no desire, and no sex. 

Past that, I really don't know what else to say...


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

BluesPower said:


> You know, I am not going to spend a lot of time on this thread. I am reading it. I think a lot of it is interesting.
> 
> It was never like this with my Ex W either. And we had three kids.
> 
> ...


I only brought up kids b/c you mentioned you weren't long in marriage (so just assumed you were on your first).

Honestly, I think that is great that everything worked out for you with your Ex and your current. However, to simply state that it is "that easy" when there are so many variables is quite a stretch (not saying this from a "NiceGuy" PoV). I also don't believe that your experience discounts in any way what Buddy posted.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

It is that easy. If you aren't getting sex, state clearly that if the sex does not pick up, then the relationship will end. And if the sex doesn't pick up, then leave.

The hard part for some of us is finding someone else to have sex with. But if we can't figure out a way to become more attractive and/or be a better lover so several women want to be with us, that is on us and not on women.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

Holdingontoit said:


> It is that easy. If you aren't getting sex, state clearly that if the sex does not pick up, then the relationship will end. And if the sex doesn't pick up, then leave.
> 
> The hard part for some of us is finding someone else to have sex with. But if we can't figure out a way to become more attractive and/or be a better lover so several women want to be with us, that is on us and not on women.


I disagree. I would like to think my children are very appreciative I didn't take the "easy way out". It was never a question or concern on my part as to whether I would have issues finding someone else to have sex with (I wouldn't)


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

BluesPower said:


> Buddy, I just have to disagree, with you and a lot of you guys.
> 
> You see, at this stage of life, and I know I am not in a long marriage, but I think the point is not ever letting it get this way in the first place. And, I understand that this happens a lot, but I just don't do that.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. IMHO men need to start viewing this as a boundary issue. 

No one bats an eye if a woman leaves a relationship if the man refuses to get job or doesn't talk to her or doesn't lift a finger to meet some need of hers. So why is this any different????

I'm not sure if it is really an "easy" vs hard thing. 

But it is definately a costly thing that comes with a price tag, and I don't mean just money.

I think people of my generation (I'm 55) were sold a Bill of Goods that told us if we were decent people, held a good job and treated women with respect and picked up our dirty underwear and mowed the lawn without being asked, we could mate for life and not have tongi through multiple break ups and be back on the dating market every handful of years.

Through in the cost of child support, lawyer fees etc and multiple wives etc just isn't feasible. 

I was fortunate in that I didn't feel the need to marry my first sweethearts and first few lives and then when I did marry in my early 30s, we had good enough communication and open attitudes towards sexuality that we were open to explore nonmonogamy once we were in our 40s and had kids etc.

When most people our age were starting to sit in the couch and grow resentful of the dead bedrooms and marriages, we were partying like porn stars :-D

An active Sexlife IMHO does need to be a hard line in the sand. There are many ways to address that work with that, but they will all carry a price tag and sweat equity.

I think the younger generations are grasping that sexual relationships will come with an expiration date better than our generation did. 

Kids today aren't in the rush to marry that people of my generation were. 

And I think they also have a better grasp that "Game" is a lifelong concept and that people are likely going to have a series of relationships and hook ups etc durin the course of their lives and that marrying your first love and living "happily ever after" is a needle in a haystack. 

The "nice guys" that get fat, sit on the couch and then refuse to leave a dead relationship because they dont want to pay the lawyer fees, divide up the furniture and pay child support on kids they are already supporting 24/7, kind of seal their own fate.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

BluesPower said:


> I keep myself looking good, I am romantic and I know what I am going in the bedroom... So if you want all the good that I bring to the table, you need to be sexual, and into me or I am gone...
> 
> I even hate writing this because all the "Nice guys" come back at me and say, "Come on dude it is not that easy".
> 
> Well yes it is... it is just that easy...


Well if you set that precedent right at the beginning of a relationship, I'm not going to argue with that in any way. But the "come on dude it is not that easy" likely comes more into play for relationships that did not establish that right from the start, and certain behaviors are somewhat tolerated before attempting to change them. 

I did a poll a long time ago about how long should a marriage be sexless before considering divorce: https://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-m...riage-sexless-before-considering-divorce.html

The one thing you can see is that everyone is different regarding how much sexlessness can be tolerated. A year seems to be the most common for those that answered. I was somewhat appalled by some of the results on both ends of the curve. But it gives you a different point of view. 

Badsanta


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## oldshirt (Apr 1, 2017)

badsanta said:


> Well if you set that precedent right at the beginning of a relationship, I'm not going to argue with that in any way. But the "come on dude it is not that easy" likely comes more into play for relationships that did not establish that right from the start, and certain behaviors are somewhat tolerated before attempting to change them.


I get your point but I don't think hardly anyone, including women, go into marriage not wanting to have a sex life.

And I think it is a no-brainer that men will want o continue an active sex life even if there are kids, even if there are bills and leaky roofs and dirty dishes in the sink. 

I think the opposite is more valid in that if there in one partner that does NOT wan to have sex or does not have any sexual interests, THEY need to be the ones to speak up right off the bat.

I think both genders go into relationships/marriage wanting to have a sex life and while I agree that communicating wants, needs and expectations in a wide variety of areas is critical to a healthy marriage, I think going into a relationship most people are DTF and assume that they will always be that way to one degree or another.


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## Affaircare (Jan 11, 2010)

I'm throwing this out there. 

You'all know me. I'm not too inhibited and not too LD nor raging HD. I have an open mind and I'm usually about 50% "in the mood" and really willing to go that other 50% if the situation comes up. But you know what REALLY tore the scales off my eyes? 

I did a 7 Day Challenge once--no biggie, just have sex every day for 7 days no excuses and see what happens. 

Well holy schmoly, what a darn eye-opener!!!!

I had never thought of myself as the kind who had to have the stars all align just right, etc. nor was I too picky, but after having 7 days straight of sex every day, I saw all the little "reasons" and really excuses I had in my own head for NOT having sex. Now for context, I was early 40's, had teenage kids, and worked a full-time job...you know a typical mom and a busy life. What I discovered is that I THOUGHT I was pretty available, and yet, OH. MY. GOSH!!! I was tired from the work, I was distracted by the kids being "within hearing range", I was not awake enough in the morning but too tired at night, I wasn't willing to risk doing it where the kids might discover us, I was this...I was that...I was ... I was... I was!!! 

I thought about it often. I loved sex when we had it! But for those 7 days I really saw for the first time all the ways that I put a brake on sex, and what was worse, all the ways I so easily said "What can I do to turn this down?" instead of having an attitude of "What can I do to join in and enjoy this?" Furthermore, I could see all the missed opportunities--all the times I could have been close to my man or made him feel wanted and desired that I had literally let them pass by! DUH! Guess what? If you don't use opportunities for closeness, then it's no wonder they start to not feel close! 

Anyway, as I said it was eye-opening. In my 20's I was hormone-driven; in my 30's I was playing house and going through a divorce; in my 40's I finally knew what I enjoyed and my sex-drive was still pretty high, but it was in my early 40's when I saw (for the first time) all the ways I had torn down intimacy rather than build it up. 

I'm not sure this is typical of LD wives (like I said, I never considered myself LD), but I wonder if there isn't some component of this in the mix.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> It is that easy. If you aren't getting sex, state clearly that if the sex does not pick up, then the relationship will end. And if the sex doesn't pick up, then leave.
> 
> The hard part for some of us is finding someone else to have sex with. But if we can't figure out a way to become more attractive and/or be a better lover so *several *women want to be with us, that is on us and not on women.


Why several?


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Affaircare said:


> I'm throwing this out there.


Thanks for the thoughts. Although I don't think what you wrote applies to my wife (at present time although it definitely did in the past), I just had a thought of something I had never considered that may be helpful.


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## CatholicDad (Oct 30, 2017)

Maybe it is all about porn. You either have a 100% authentic relationship with someone or you don't. With porn and masturbation as part of it, it ain't 100%.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

I don't think its that simple. Sex is a very important part of a marriage, but its not the only part. There are lots of other parts that are important as well. 

There are many people who are not happy with their sex lives AND are confident that they could find sex somewhere else, but still choose to stay with the person that they love. 




Holdingontoit said:


> It is that easy. If you aren't getting sex, state clearly that if the sex does not pick up, then the relationship will end. And if the sex doesn't pick up, then leave.
> 
> The hard part for some of us is finding someone else to have sex with. But if we can't figure out a way to become more attractive and/or be a better lover so several women want to be with us, that is on us and not on women.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

NobodySpecial said:


> Why several?


Several, at a time, or more.

So one would have choices 😎😎😎


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

uhtred said:


> I don't think its that simple. Sex is a very important part of a marriage, but its not the only part. There are lots of other parts that are important as well.
> 
> There are many people who are not happy with their sex lives AND are confident that they could find sex somewhere else, but still choose to stay with the person that they love.


And this is very true. Sex is an important part of multiple important parts, that make the whole.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

uhtred said:


> I don't think its that simple. Sex is a very important part of a marriage, but its not the only part. There are lots of other parts that are important as well.
> 
> There are many people who are not happy with their sex lives AND are confident that they could find sex somewhere else, but still choose to stay with the person that they love.


Agreed, which is I why a simple "Just lay down the law at the start" just doesn't even remotely cut it for most people.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

CatholicDad said:


> Maybe it is all about porn. You either have a 100% authentic relationship with someone or you don't. With porn and masturbation as part of it, it ain't 100%.


I am not going to lie and say your comment there is nonsense, as there is some truth to that. In my opinion our problems were unrelated to porn. Porn however created more problems on top of that to make it almost impossible to solve the real problems. Real problems were ignored as if 100% of the problems were caused by porn.

So if porn was 100% responsible for me not being able to see and address the real problems that needed attention, well OK then porn was 100% of the problem.

Kinda like loosing part of your home to fire because of an undiagnosable electrical problem, but you blame all the damage to your home on a faulty fire extinguishing system. You rebuild but the electrical problems are still there and causing problems even though the new extinguishers can handle it. THEN you see the house needs to be rewired in order to be safe. Could one argue that the faulty fire extinguishing system was 100% of the problem for the initial loss? I'm sure some people would agree that it was the problem because all homes have issues that can cause them to catch on fire and that you need to be ready to deal with that when it happens as opposed to taking a cheap and easy solution for fire prevention.

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Badsanta
In reality this involves 45 minutes of "listening" to her talk about tax preparation, household finances, family drama, upcoming doctor's appointments, household repairs, diet restrictions, exercise schedules, and just about everything you can possibly imagine that totally will kill my libido.... THEN we begin from zero, myself included.*

I so related to this. I got the verbal dumping on during sex.

As far as Catholic Dad's post, I haven't experienced any of your anti masturbation posts as being helpful.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

uhtred said:


> I don't think its that simple. Sex is a very important part of a marriage, but its not the only part. There are lots of other parts that are important as well.
> 
> There are many people who are not happy with their sex lives AND are confident that they could find sex somewhere else, but still choose to stay with the person that they love.


I am getting less and less convinced that throwing down the gauntlet will improve anything in anything but the immediate term. I know I would have no interest in sexy time with someone was literally f me or the highway beotch. There is that whole love thing.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> Agreed, which is I why a simple "Just lay down the law at the start" just doesn't even remotely cut it for most people.


I think back to all those years ago. DH was very clear that he did not intend to live in a sexless marriage. But he was quite simply explaining what his life was going to be, not laying down a law.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Stealing this comment from another thread!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That’s because they really don’t know what it they like sometimes. I don’t think they are lying when they say this...
Sometimes it’s a bit like being indecisive where to go to on holiday: IMO sometimes just surprising her can have the highest impact. I sometimes do it with wife: we turn up at airport and she has no idea where I’m taking her until it’s time to wake up on the plane...Just as long as she doesn’t wake up in Detroit... 


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

NobodySpecial said:


> I think back to all those years ago. DH was very clear that he did not intend to live in a sexless marriage. But he was quite simply explaining what his life was going to be, not laying down a law.



Absolutely no difference between the two IMO.
The message is exactly the same. Just that it can be done in a beta/whiny way or in a more confident way.

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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

InMyPrime said:


> Absolutely no difference between the two IMO.
> The message is exactly the same. Just that it can be done in a beta/whiny way or in a more confident way.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't agree. The thing about simple solutions to complex problems. They don't work.

One of the things that DH's approach did was engender safety and time to go on a journey of learning and genuine intimacy which f me or else could not have done. It included a willingness, even eagerness, to understand my PoV _even when the truths were hard for him_. Hard to understand and hard to accept. The message was not f me or else. The message was build with me. Grow with me. AND I WILL GROW TOO.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

NobodySpecial said:


> I think back to all those years ago. DH was very clear that he did not intend to live in a sexless marriage. But he was quite simply explaining what his life was going to be, not laying down a law.


I think a lot of what gets lost as well, everyone has different experiences, and many times (especially at the start where chemicals are jumping all over the place) you don't always think you need to spell out what you expect in terms of sex (or really other aspects that may be flying high at the time). In my case, my W and I have been together since college. So b/w her and the few other relationships before, sex was never an issue, we were always on the same page (heck, even for a good portion of my marriage sex was never an issue, until the kids appeared lol). Younger me, there was never a reason why I felt the need to lay things out clearly. Older/wiser me, if god forbid I had to go into another relationship, would treat things differently. Add in what @uhtred said about there being many different aspects in a relationship where sex may not be the end all be all, and that is the reason why I can't help but scratch my head with "it's that easy" comments as if it universally applies to everyone.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

EllisRedding said:


> I think a lot of what gets lost as well, everyone has different experiences, and many times (especially at the start where chemicals are jumping all over the place) you don't always think you need to spell out what you expect in terms of sex (or really other aspects that may be flying high at the time). In my case, my W and I have been together since college. So b/w her and the few other relationships before, sex was never an issue, we were always on the same page (heck, even for a good portion of my marriage sex was never an issue, until the kids appeared lol). Younger me, there was never a reason why I felt the need to lay things out clearly. Older/wiser me, if god forbid I had to go into another relationship, would treat things differently. Add in what @uhtred said about there being many different aspects in a relationship where sex may not be the end all be all, and that is the reason why I can't help but scratch my head with "it's that easy" comments as if it universally applies to everyone.


And I say a rather loud YES SIR.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Handy said:


> * Badsanta
> In reality this involves 45 minutes of "listening" to her talk about tax preparation, household finances, family drama, upcoming doctor's appointments, household repairs, diet restrictions, exercise schedules, and just about everything you can possibly imagine that totally will kill my libido.... THEN we begin from zero, myself included.*
> 
> I so related to this. I got the verbal dumping on during sex.
> ...


I'm not anti-masturbation by any means. My stance on that is to not be ashamed and be an open book. I enjoy fantasizing about my own wife and she is now confident enough to enjoy giving me a few things to enjoy thinking about it that regard. 

Before she refused to believe that I was fantasize about her, but I shared with her in detail how that works and why I enjoy thinking about her. She just assumed I was thinking about other women or watching porn. Now of course I am not perfect, so I told her how she compares to other women in my mind, and she enjoys hearing that. 

It is important to note that I likely have some sensory issues related to the autism spectrum. In college when girlfriends would give me BJs, I found it painful and do not like BJ's to this day. (WTF Badsanta!) So everything I see in porn is like, "dude that has to feel uncomfortable, no way would I enjoy that." Meanwhile my wife totally gets me and knows very well how to set off a thermonuclear reaction in my pants. When i tell her the stories about my previous partners and how bad they were at certain things compared to her, she dies laughing and says if I ever tried to have an affair that the other woman would fail horribly and that I would come running home screaming.

So for me porn was WTF, why do people like that? Once I found out that almost everything in porn if fake just like WWE wrestling (I know some die hards insist it is real) it was a huge relief for me. Everything in porn is about facilitating a camera angle for the viewer's entertainment and portraying the idea of a fantasy (most of which looks uncomfortable to me). 

OK, for those that want to insist porn is real and that female actresses don't get paid unless they can actually orgasm on camera, stop for a moment and think about that. Like really try to imagine that. A whole movie crew in your bedroom threatening to not pay you unless you can make it explode for the camera. If anything it could make for a good study on how to still perform in situations of extreme anxiety.

Regards,
Badsanta


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## greg28 (Jun 26, 2018)

If you didn’t have a porn problem then everything would work out. It’s all your fault my friend sorry 😐


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

greg28 said:


> If you didn’t have a porn problem then everything would work out. It’s all your fault my friend sorry 😐



Nice avatar. Did you take it recently?


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## Rocky Mountain Yeti (Apr 23, 2017)

greg28 said:


> If you didn’t have a porn problem then everything would work out. It’s all your fault my friend sorry 😐


I suppose the irony of you saying someone else has a porn problem while you're sporting that avatar is completely lost on you.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

badsanta, what is your opinion on a segment of home made sexual videos that are made by the couple? The camera is set some place and might have the faces blurred or cut out out after diting. Average but not that many good looking bodies. No props or special props. Not that much being said. Some kissing and some or lots of hand grips / touching.

My idea is the couple is showing off some but it is mostly real. It can be mostly what turns them on or mostly what they like. OK some of the so called home made erotica could be acting, but some could be the real thing because different people like different things. There are also different activity levels.

I agree with you and others that some or most of the glitzy porn is acting.

As far as BJ, never had one and I always thought PIV sex should be better because both partners can kiss and touch each other in loving and caring ways. For me, the more skin on skin (body parts in contact with the LTP) the better. I like seeing couples happy, which happens in most home made erotica.

My situation=dead bedroom and dead relationship. I am happy some people have something good going for them.


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## Handy (Jul 23, 2017)

* Greg
If you didn’t have a porn problem then everything would work out. It’s all your fault my friend sorry *

I know of several cases there wasn't a porn problem until someone in the relationship closed up shop. Yes there is divorce but that isn't a simple task and finances take a big hit.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> *I think back to all those years ago. DH was very clear that he did not intend to live in a sexless marriage. But he was quite simply explaining what his life was going to be, not laying down a law.*


*Ultimatum's rarely, if ever, work!

Reasonable expressions of one's marital assumptions and/or expectations almost always do!*


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Handy said:


> badsanta, what is your opinion on a segment of home made sexual videos that are made by the couple? The camera is set some place and might have the faces blurred or cut out out after diting. Average but not that many good looking bodies. No props or special props. Not that much being said. Some kissing and some or lots of hand grips / touching.
> 
> My idea is the couple is showing off some but it is mostly real. It can be mostly what turns them on or mostly what they like. OK some of the so called home made erotica could be acting, but some could be the real thing because different people like different things. There are also different activity levels.
> 
> ...


While this is not exactly a porn thread, this is a good discussion point...

@Handy your argument sounds much like an argument I made to myself a long time ago when I was trying to justify why some porn is not harmful to those involved. My wife often complained that porn was just an indirect form of prostitution and I had to agree with her, yet there are many content providers out there that do not get paid and appear as loving couples. Is that harmless? Well, here are my thoughts...

I eventually came to the conclusion (just as all porn is fake) that there are no real loving couples that freely post content online. For those that seem to do, the viewers do not have the whole story as to "why" that content got posted online. It is usually a pretty messed up scenario once you dig around. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## Buddy400 (Aug 30, 2014)

Deleted.

Already answered


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> I eventually came to the conclusion (just as all porn is fake) that there are no real loving couples that freely post content online. For those that seem to do, the viewers do not have the whole story as to "why" that content got posted online. It is usually a pretty messed up scenario once you dig around.


Then your conclusion is wrong.

My wife and I have posted personal sexually explicit content online for others to see for free. Yet we are a loving couple, who aren't messed up. Simply put, for us it's just a bit of fun exhibitionism

As to our content we have not posted any video content at all so far. Yet we have posted edited JPEG images stripped of their EXIF data. With no image showing anything above the lips on any picture showing faces, with other identifying marks removed.

That content has shown some general exposure of genitalia, flashing in public places, my penis in her mouth, having sex, cream pie, cum facial, drooling cum from her mouth and other similar shots. Nothing we post is done without mutual agreement, of which most of our stuff like that isn't online.

I've no doubt there is plenty of home made sexually explicit content that has been posted without consent, yet our stuff is consensual and I doubt we are the only ones doing that.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> > I eventually came to the conclusion (just as all porn is fake) that there are no real loving couples that freely post content online. For those that seem to do, the viewers do not have the whole story as to "why" that content got posted online. It is usually a pretty messed up scenario once you dig around.
> 
> 
> Then your conclusion is wrong.
> ...


Exhibitionism ≠ Love in my opinion. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> Exhibitionism ≠ Love in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How do you post ‘love’ online? You mean like wedding photos? Not sure this will turn many people on...I associate weddings with tremendous amounts of stress!! 


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

badsanta said:


> Exhibitionism ≠ Love in my opinion.
> 
> Regards,
> Badsanta


That is weird - full stop. Have you ever considered that your wicked romanticism of sex and love does not help you?


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

badsanta said:


> Exhibitionism ≠ Love in my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah...that’s pretty messed up. 


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> > Exhibitionism ≠ Love in my opinion.
> 
> 
> That is weird - full stop. Have you ever considered that your wicked romanticism of sex and love does not help you?


With regards to the earlier question for viewing online porn posted by "real loving couples" when the respective couple has a fetish/kink/paraphilia for exhibitionism then it drastically alters the context of _why_ that content was posted online. An erotic provocateur is often sexually motivated primarily with the concept of arousing/provoking others outside of his/her marriage which in my opinion seems unloving.

So if my "wicked romanticism of sex and love does not help" well, everyone is entitled to their opinion. 

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

badsanta said:


> With regards to the earlier question for viewing online porn posted by "real loving couples" when the respective couple has a fetish/kink/paraphilia for exhibitionism then it drastically alters the context of _why_ that content was posted online. In my opinion an erotic provocateur is sexually motivated primarily with the concept of arousing/provoking others outside of his/her marriage which in my opinion seems unloving.
> 
> So if my "wicked romanticism of sex and love does not help" well, everyone is entitled to their opinion.
> 
> ...


I will always shake my head at what some people think love is. Wonder why so many people struggle.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

Elizabeth001 said:


> Yeah...that’s pretty messed up.


Except my wife and I have a splendid 20 year marriage, where we support each other with a great love. While having enjoyed sharing a rich sex life, through almost 23 years of being together.

Fortunately for my wife and I our way has seen us enjoy a great marriage, which is something many here haven't been able to achieve.


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## Ragnar Ragnasson (Mar 4, 2018)

I wouldn't ever have explicit postings, or even pics that could be vindictively found, posted, but that's just me.

Other viewpoints are good too, no worries. 

But hey, who has never gotten caught having sex outside, or in public? 😎😎😎

That never worried me. Even had FFM sex multiple times, when younger. Never MMF, that wasn't my bag.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> With regards to the earlier question for viewing online porn posted by "real loving couples" when the respective couple has a fetish/kink/paraphilia for exhibitionism then it drastically alters the context of _why_ that content was posted online. An erotic provocateur is often sexually motivated primarily with the concept of arousing/provoking others outside of his/her marriage which in my opinion seems unloving.


Hey badsanta thanks for saying my wife and I don't have a loving relationship, since according to you we aren't a loving couple.

I find it ironic that you would make such assertions, since you're in a marriage beset with significant problems, many of which are related to communication and sexuality.

While we have recently celebrated our 20th wedding anniversary, while still liking and loving one another, while still having an extremely rich and varied sex life with considerable frequency. Where we are true to one another. While also not feeling compelled to tip toe around one another, lest we offend the other.

It's funny close to 23 years ago I rendered first aid to my wife (then girlfriend), while covered in her blood. While I helped two other casualties and managed the incident scene before help arrived. Then for a time helped her bathe and go to the toilet, walk and all the rest while she recovered from her serious injuries.

I've raised two children with my wife, one of whom is a young man early into his university experience who is an accomplished young student with a girlfriend. While our daughter is a talented visual artist and musician, who is now struggling with an illness that might kill her.

My wife and I have also recently faced a cancer scare for her and having had major surgery to save her life. We have faced redundancy, plus sharing 9 different addresses through 22 years together. Have faced drought and isolating floods together while living in an isolated town on the edge of the Outback. Have survived a house fire, in our second year together. While having experienced many other significant things together, while always having each others backs.

Yet here you are saying we're unloving.

As to our motivation for sharing such images. In our case it's part showing off, which is the exhibitionism bit. Plus part contributing to a community that is as least as open as we are, if not more so in many instances.

Incidentally all of our images are first and foremost for our own enjoyment, yet we see nothing wrong with others enjoying some of it as well.

Not all of us have hangups about sexuality, nudity, erotica and pornography. Yet such people can and do love, just as richly and deeply as others can.


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## badsanta (Oct 13, 2014)

Personal said:


> Hey badsanta thanks for saying my wife and I don't have a loving relationship, since according to you we aren't a loving couple.


I never said your marriage was unloving...



> I find it ironic that you would make such assertions, since you're in a marriage beset with significant problems, many of which are related to communication and sexuality. Plus I recall when you first started posting here. You were considering cheating sexually with another former member here, who you dated in the past.


Back then I was totally guilty of being a troll. I conspired with about four or five people wanting to go out in flames and walk away from this forum to make up that story. If you really believe I lived with dozens of hamsters and dated a roommate that allowed many of my hamsters to escape and die, to then many years later beg her to give me back our sex tapes we made together so I could remember the good times? 

... can we please chuckle a bit here? (tried to find that thread but perhaps it was deleted)

Anyway I still post and read here because this is a good forum and it often challenges my point of view on many topics to help me think and understand. So I have never trolled since them.



> As to our motivation for sharing such images. In our case it's part showing off, which is the exhibitionism bit.


That is the part I question as the unloving part. Showing off to others. Does that really help them? If they are jealous and then resentful to their own spouse for not being as sexual, is that a loving thing to do to that person?

Regards, 
Badsanta


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Personal said:


> Except my wife and I have a splendid 20 year marriage, where we support each other with a great love. While having enjoyed sharing a rich sex life, through almost 23 years of being together.
> 
> Clearly your definition of messed up versus mine is different. Fortunately for my wife and I our way has seen us enjoy a great marriage, which is something many here haven't been able to achieve.


 The that's messed up refers to the unequivocal opinion that exhibitionism cannot equal love.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

badsanta said:


> That is the part I question as the unloving part. Showing off to others. Does that really help them? If they are jealous and then resentful to their own spouse for not being as sexual, is that a loving thing to do to that person?
> 
> Regards,
> Badsanta


Lots of things we do in our lives are not about helping others -- including kink. The notion that a person's kink must be loving toward a random person without their own **** together is a bit daft.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

badsanta said:


> If you really believe I lived with dozens of hamsters and dated a roommate that allowed many of my hamsters to escape and die, to then many years later beg her to give me back our sex tapes we made together so I could remember the good times?


I didn't remember the hamster part of the story or much of the rest of it very well at all. That said I think TAM, was a more fun place for posting back then.



badsanta said:


> That is the part I question as the unloving part. Showing off to others. Does that really help them? If they are jealous and then resentful to their own spouse for not being as sexual, is that a loving thing to do to that person?


Who cares if it helps them. We're not looking to be loving to other randoms (our pictures are of and from us loving each other), who would potentially masturbate to our pictures. Good luck to their masturbating, yet as to the rest we really don't care since others should take responsibility for themselves.

If others are jealous of our pictures (which would be a bit or maybe a lot weird) and consequently resentful towards their own spouses. Then they have mental problems, that they should endeavour to resolve.

If someone has issues looking at pornography, they ought to lay off it as a personal issue. Just the same for alcohol, so if someone has a problem with it they ought to abstain.

Yet for the rest of us, who are fine drinking alcohol without any problems and or viewing pornography without issue. We won't worry about something, that isn't a problem to us in any way whatsoever.


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

NobodySpecial said:


> The that's messed up refers to the unequivocal opinion that exhibitionism cannot equal love.


So does that mean I have misunderstood @Elizabeth001's post?

Or have I misunderstood you?

Who knows it's late here and I'm tired, so goodnight.


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## 269370 (Dec 17, 2016)

badsanta said:


> I never said your marriage was unloving...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It would be, if one of them didn’t enjoy it. Both have to be ‘in it, to win it’.
Sure, there are husbands who will pressurise their partners to do stuff they don’t enjoy and this can be more damaging than simply ‘suppress’ one’s kink, in my opinion.
I think I know what you are getting at.
Just remember, there are many different ways to express love, some may be bit foreign to you or me.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Personal said:


> So does that mean I have misunderstood @Elizabeth001's post?


Yes, that is what I think is the case based what I took her to mean.



> Or have I misunderstood you?
> 
> Who knows it's late here and I'm tired, so goodnight.


Sleep tight


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## Personal (Jan 16, 2014)

^^^ Then apologies @Elizabeth001, I'm sorry I misunderstood you.

And goodnight @NobodySpecial


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## Elizabeth001 (May 18, 2015)

Personal said:


> ^^^ Then apologies @Elizabeth001, I'm sorry I misunderstood you.
> 
> 
> 
> And goodnight @NobodySpecial




No problem. Shat happens 


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

@Holdingontoit said:


> Those of us who can't find several women to have sex with us . . .





NobodySpecial said:


> Why several?


If a guy can't find several women to have sex with (over a reasonable period of time), then he will still be operating from a mindset of scarcity. Likely he will still be tempted to remain in a relationship that provides some but not "enough" sex. If his experience is that seeking sex is like hunting unicorns, and he caught a unicorn, he is highly motivated to stand pat.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

uhtred said:


> I don't think its that simple. Sex is a very important part of a marriage, but its not the only part. There are lots of other parts that are important as well.


Well, it depends on what you mean by "work". I define "work" quite narrowly. As being in a sexually unsatisfying marriage. Calmly declaring "I won't be in a sexually unsatisfying marriage" combined with leaving if the sex does not improve would be 100% effective in not being in a sexually unsatisfying marriage.

I completely agree that it is "not that easy" to end up with a sexually satisfying marriage. I agree that there is no simple rule or set of behaviors for either the HD or the LD or the male or the female that easily results in a sexually satisfying marriage.

On the other hand, I agree with @NobodySpecial (who I happen to believe is quite special) that there are certain sets of behaviors and choices that will close to invariably result in one's sex life being unsatisfying. Anyone who wants to be in a sexually satisfying relationship would do well to avoid those choices and behaviors. Still, some of us prefer wallowing to soaring.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Well, it depends on what you mean by "work". I define "work" quite narrowly. As being in a sexually unsatisfying marriage. Calmly declaring "I won't be in a sexually unsatisfying marriage" combined with leaving if the sex does not improve would be 100% effective in not being in a sexually unsatisfying marriage.
> 
> I completely agree that it is "not that easy" to end up with a sexually satisfying marriage. I agree that there is no simple rule or set of behaviors for either the HD or the LD or the male or the female that easily results in a sexually satisfying marriage.
> 
> On the other hand, I agree with @NobodySpecial (who I happen to believe is quite special) that there are certain sets of behaviors and choices that will close to invariably result in one's sex life being unsatisfying. Anyone who wants to be in a sexually satisfying relationship would do well to avoid those choices and behaviors. Still, some of us prefer wallowing to soaring.


You are sweet.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

It is possible for most people to end up in a marriage that is sexually satisfying, if that is their primary goal. Each constraint put on potential partners reduces the number of partners, and makes them more difficult to find.

If you look at various marriage issues on this board, lack of sex does not seem to be the most common complaint. So someone who trades a partner who is good other than sex, risks finding one of these other problems. 

Also, there is the non-selfish view. Many people feel a commitment to make the person that they love happy, even if that person isn't providing good sex 




Holdingontoit said:


> Well, it depends on what you mean by "work". I define "work" quite narrowly. As being in a sexually unsatisfying marriage. Calmly declaring "I won't be in a sexually unsatisfying marriage" combined with leaving if the sex does not improve would be 100% effective in not being in a sexually unsatisfying marriage.
> 
> I completely agree that it is "not that easy" to end up with a sexually satisfying marriage. I agree that there is no simple rule or set of behaviors for either the HD or the LD or the male or the female that easily results in a sexually satisfying marriage.
> 
> On the other hand, I agree with @NobodySpecial (who I happen to believe is quite special) that there are certain sets of behaviors and choices that will close to invariably result in one's sex life being unsatisfying. Anyone who wants to be in a sexually satisfying relationship would do well to avoid those choices and behaviors. Still, some of us prefer wallowing to soaring.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

uhtred said:


> It is possible for most people to end up in a marriage that is sexually satisfying, if that is their primary goal.


But not necessarily with their current partner.

I agree that just about anyone can obtain a sexually satisfying relationship. I disagree with the notion that there is always a way for people is a long standing mismatch can end up in a sexually satisfying marriage with their current spouse.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Agreed. I didn't mean to imply with current partner.




Holdingontoit said:


> But not necessarily with their current partner.
> 
> I agree that just about anyone can obtain a sexually satisfying relationship. I disagree with the notion that there is always a way for people is a long standing mismatch can end up in a sexually satisfying marriage with their current spouse.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

Holdingontoit said:


> Well, it depends on what you mean by "work". I define "work" quite narrowly. As being in a sexually unsatisfying marriage. Calmly declaring "I won't be in a sexually unsatisfying marriage" combined with leaving if the sex does not improve would be 100% effective in not being in a sexually unsatisfying marriage.


100% effective in not being in THAT sexually unsatisfying marriage.


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## Holdingontoit (Mar 7, 2012)

NobodySpecial said:


> 100% effective in not being in THAT sexually unsatisfying marriage.


Yes, exactly. No guarantee that the person will ever be in a sexually satisfying marriage. Like I said, much harder and no universally available path to THAT outcome.


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## BluesPower (Mar 27, 2018)

Holdingontoit said:


> I completely agree that it is "not that easy" to end up with a sexually satisfying marriage. I agree that there is no simple rule or set of behaviors for either the HD or the LD or the male or the female that easily results in a sexually satisfying marriage.


And you would be wrong to agree with this in my opinion. Along with whoever wrote it. And again it is just my opinion. 

And, @Holdingontoit, we have talked about this before, so I won't go there again. But honestly man, you lack of self respect and lack of love for yourself, just makes me hurt for you. 

I bet a $100 that you are no where near as bad as you portray yourself. 

But yes, it is that easy for some of us. And not because we are stud gorgeous hunks either. It is easy because we do not let ourselves get into, or stay in sexless/low sex situations. 

While I have never been, nor do it expect to be, sexless, I also will never be in a relationship that does not overall make me ecstatically happy. Sex and lots of it, just happens to be one of the pieces that makes me ecstatically happy. 

Other things are lots and lots of cuddle time and affection, true love on both sides, desire, lust, caring for one another at a deep level... 

That list could go on and on, but if sex is missing or any of the most important parts, there is no relationship.


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## NobodySpecial (Nov 22, 2013)

BluesPower said:


> And you would be wrong to agree with this in my opinion. Along with whoever wrote it. And again it is just my opinion.
> 
> And, @Holdingontoit, we have talked about this before, so I won't go there again. But honestly man, you lack of self respect and lack of love for yourself, just makes me hurt for you.
> *
> I bet a $100 that you are no where near as bad as you portray yourself*.


I think he recognizes that how he feels about himself and how he portrays himself is WHY he is "as bad" as he is.


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