# Unconditional Love or term limits?



## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

Unconditional love, 

if it weren’t for those two words together, the Hallmark Channel would have nothing to show, for that matter Hallmark Cards would be virtual empty less the section on Get well, don’t die and Blessing's on missing your period. 

On the surface one would think that it came out of the Renaissance period or more to the point a biblical passage but neither is true as best as i understand it in research, it was the creation of Psychoanalyst Erich Fromm who was actually noting self-love as the basis for that concept, that we should have unconditional love for oneself, not for others, but it was adopted as such during the 60’s and “Free Love” arena…from there it spread into cards, books, movies (aka “love story”) and the internet…..i am not suggesting there is an expiration date for love, but at the same time when you read those words from posters saying regardless of what their spouse did i love them unconditionally, i just want to throw up….maybe i am a cynic (no question about that) maybe i am not the romantic type (debatable), but mostly i am a rationalist, and as such i would question how far does unconditional love go, i would suggest there is a point of demarcation, one affair?, a dozen affairs? murder? Jay walking?
But as some point unconditional love becomes blind faith in stupidity, and someone is left holding the bag and its usually the person that has more vested in the relationship than the other. 

Now, let me place this caveat or more apply put disclaimer.

i am excluding parents, children, grand children, pets, and Deities from the above concept, for sake of argument not necessarily because i believe that either. Let’s focus on spouse or significant other.


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## KillerClown (Jul 20, 2016)

I think your definition of unconditional love is a caricature. People who love are three denominational fleshed out individuals with their own past and future. Generalized discussion about love is categorically impossible.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

I feel loved unconditionally by my husband. Does that count?


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Unconditional love is a core of Buddhism... in a nutshell we want others to be happy without placing conditional love against it. It's a tough path that requires the ultimate openness of courage and acceptance, often the larger challenge of self-acceptance in understanding the attachment of love, which is rarely without self-interest.

What isn't unconditional is the path... if one doesn't allow the expectation that love is forever, even if some are successful, and accepts that message when it is no longer there, then before it devolves into a hate-strewn and prolonged path that another path is required after all efforts are given.

Of course this is not without pain and disappointment, we are human... but to leave without hate is so important to self and self healing from the loss of unconditional effort. We often choose to resist the clear path... leave that which repeatedly hurts us, and we suffer for it... that level of hurt is always an individual measure, no one can dictate that for another and often as we have seen it tried with disappointing results.

I have left relationships hurt, but accepting and also bitter, with hate... I would rather leave loving as best I can than any other way.


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## uhtred (Jun 22, 2016)

Why should love of a spouse be less perminent and less violable than love for a child?


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

[quote;16962674]I feel loved unconditionally by my husband. Does that count?[/quote]

Jid,

i believe that you believe that, but the problem with believing that concept to be real would require testing it


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Why should love of a spouse be less permanent and less violable than love for a child?


depending on who you ask it is not. I woudl suggest to you that there are people are as willing to throw away a child as they would a spouse, consider for a moment that tragic story that posted on here in the past week where the mother kills her children to get back at her husband.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Why should love of a spouse be less perminent and less violable than love for a child?


I agree.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Xenote said:


> Jid,
> 
> i believe that you believe that, but the problem with believing that concept to real would be required to test it.


I don't know, Xenote. I think in some ways it is tested regularly.


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## Kivlor (Oct 27, 2015)

Personally, I don't believe in "unconditional love". All love is conditioned. I also think love is a choice, not something that "just happens". Call me old-fashioned.

I don't love people who abuse me or treat me terribly. And anyone who does so has no claim to my love or affection. Parents, siblings, kids. None of them. Similarly I have no claim to another's love or affection, and I certainly have no right to expect it if I treat someone terribly or abuse them. Whether they're my family or not.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

uhtred said:


> Why should love of a spouse be less perminent and less violable than love for a child?


A fair question. 

Our children are wholly dependent upon us and without a selfless love that child would never survive. Babies require a level of care unprecedented in any other endeavor. No deed a human endeavors comes close to the effort required to raise a child. We are prewired to love our children so much that we continually sacrifice for their growth and life. Without our love, which enables our sacrifice, which enables a child to live, our species would have died out eons ago. 

The parenting bond begins unconditionally and stays in that unconditional state well into that child's adulthood. We bear a greater burden of responsibility in contributing to the lovable-ness of our children While we bear very little responsibility in contributing toward our spouses loveable-ness. If we raised them well enough they are lovable. To love a grown child is the long awaited reward for having sacrificed in order to raise that child. 

To love a spouse is, by design, conditional. We sacrifice for a spouse, but only to a certain point. If the primary purpose of pair-bonded love is to create an environment in which to nurture and raise children, the love we feel is therefore predicated on maintaining that environment. Unlike the sacrifice a parent willingly gives to the child, sacrifice meaning we give with no expectations to receive, we must have expectations met by a spouse. 

To enter marriage with the expectation that we will be loved unconditionally is immature, I think. 

Under what conditions do most people agree that our devotion to our spouse be severed? A spouse who murders a child has forfeited our love. A spouse who knowingly endangers a child, also. Murdering offspring is fairly cut and dry. But knowingly endangering a child runs through a wide spectrum from getting stinking drunk and falling asleep while a toddler plays near a body of water, to failing to keep food safe from contamination due to laziness, or creating a hostile and acrimonious home. We place conditions on the love of a spouse because our children must survive and they must have a parent healthy enough to parent them.

If you agree that the above paragraph is true, then spousal love is indeed conditional and the only things left to debate are what, exactly, those conditions might be.


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## Rowan (Apr 3, 2012)

I think it's foolish to imagine that unconditional romantic love is actually even possible in a healthy and sustainable way. Unconditional love means that no matter how that person behaves or treats you, you will continue to love them just the same. So, if your spouse cheats on you, hits you, blows every cent of your joint retirement account on a weekend bender in Vegas, molests a child or tries to kill you - unconditional love would dictate that you still love them in the same way as you did prior to their bad acts. I'm not sure it's really possible, and certainly wouldn't be considered at all healthy. Can you really still have warm fuzzy, wanna jump your bones, snuggly, giddy, in love-ness for a partner who just....oh, let's say, shot you three times in an attempt to cash in on your life insurance policy so they could run off with their lover? Now, for the most part, relationships aren't dealing with such extreme examples of bad behavior. But there are myriad examples of bad behavior of the much more mundane variety that make it equally difficult to maintain romantic love. 

I still care about my ex-husband to a certain extent. I wish him well, hope he is happy, and would be sad if anything bad befell him. I care for him, in a platonic way that leads me to not hate him or wish him dead - much like the mailman who's name I can never remember or the clerk at my local supermarket. But we're divorced because finding out he was a serial cheater did, in fact, destroy my romantic love for him. Because, as much as I really did love him, romantic love isn't _really_ unconditional. If it were, then cheating wouldn't matter, sexless marriages wouldn't matter, abuse wouldn't matter. None of those things would negatively impact romantic feeling for the offending partner. And, yet, I think most would agree that remaining with a partner who treats you deplorably is neither healthy nor even particularly loving or lovable. That sort of boundary-less existence is more in the realm of extreme co-dependence, rather than healthy romantic love.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

jld said:


> *I feel* loved unconditionally by my husband. Does that count?


"*I feel*" is your strength in this short life, and your profound weakness in defense of your statement and in your belief.

Wishful thinking is wispy thinking in the real world.

Your world? Love it while it holds true. 

I do like you...make no mistake about that.


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## MSalmoides (Sep 29, 2016)

...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> "*I feel*" is your strength in this short life, and your profound weakness in defense of your statement and in your belief.
> 
> Wishful thinking is wispy thinking in the real world.
> 
> ...


 

Maybe Dug will come on and make his own statement about it. He is travelling right now, so is pretty busy.

I do think he loves me unconditionally. I cannot see him ever stopping loving me.

Do you know that Bible verse about how nothing can ever separate us from the love that God has for us? I believe that is how Dug loves me.

@farsidejunky or @arbitrator, do you know the Bible verse I am talking about?


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## Miss Independent (Mar 24, 2014)

.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

spinsterdurga said:


> Do you love him unconditionally?


I don't think so. He says I do, though, even if I do not realize it.


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## farsidejunky (Mar 19, 2014)

'Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.'

Romans 8:35-39


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

farsidejunky said:


> 'Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? As it is written:
> 
> “For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
> 
> ...


Thank you, far. That is such a beautiful passage. And I definitely believe it describes my husband's love and commitment to me. I think some humans can love like God loves.


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## SunCMars (Feb 29, 2016)

jld said:


> Maybe Dug will come on and make his own statement about it. He is travelling right now, so is pretty busy.
> 
> I do think he loves me unconditionally. I cannot see him ever stopping loving me.
> 
> ...



Romans 8:31-39
Nothing Can Separate Us from God’s Love

And you @jld are like stainless steel to acid rain.

The drips, drops and the deluge runs right off you...to lower souls and lower ground.

God Bless!


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SunCMars said:


> Romans 8:31-39
> Nothing Can Separate Us from God’s Love
> 
> And you @jld are like stainless steel to acid rain.
> ...


My goodness, Sun, thank you. God bless you, too!


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Why should love of a spouse be less perminent and less violable than love for a child?


Because a child is of you. whereas your spouse is not. But having said that the premise of the question is false. There are numerous examples of parents and children estranged from one another. Being estranged implies a certain number of conditions have not been met, hence the love is NOT unconditional.
The OP had it right in that the unconditional aspect of love have been turned on its head by our society. In fact as the OP suggested you must love yourself unconditionally first, otherwise how do you forgive your self for inviting all of the disappointments of life into your life (especially from spouses and children)


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> A fair question.
> 
> Our children are wholly dependent upon us and without a selfless love that child would never survive. Babies require a level of care unprecedented in any other endeavor. No deed a human endeavors comes close to the effort required to raise a child. We are prewired to love our children so much that we continually sacrifice for their growth and life. Without our love, which enables our sacrifice, which enables a child to live, our species would have died out eons ago.
> 
> ...


I totally agree... but I would also say that to enter marriage without a learned acceptance is also immature. Problem is, there is no substitute for experience (maturity), and it's only there where our "pickers" get tuned and we weed out the unacceptable (conditional) which makes the unconditional a much easier path... SimplyAmorous is one that has a well-tuned picker and I feel that from every word she posts.



Anon Pink said:


> Under what conditions do most people agree that our devotion to our spouse be severed? A spouse who murders a child has forfeited our love. A spouse who knowingly endangers a child, also. Murdering offspring is fairly cut and dry. But knowingly endangering a child runs through a wide spectrum from getting stinking drunk and falling asleep while a toddler plays near a body of water, to failing to keep food safe from contamination due to laziness, or creating a hostile and acrimonious home. We place conditions on the love of a spouse because our children must survive and they must have a parent healthy enough to parent them.
> 
> If you agree that the above paragraph is true, then spousal love is indeed conditional and the only things left to debate are what, exactly, those conditions might be.


I have thought about this all day AP... I know my thinking is often seen as too passive for many on this site and I hope I can engage in this conversation with the utmost respect exchanged, at least that is my goal.

You speak of forfeited love... is this a "Jesus forgives, I don't" kind of conditional love? I am not trying to be contentious, I would simply like to understand your statement... if you were sitting across from me with a coffee as my friend I would ask you the same with a curious smile.

If a child is endangered, yet still relatively safe and unharmed, do we really place conditions on the love of a spouse, or do we free our love, still unconditionally, for the sake of those who rely on our providing a safe and nurturing home and environment by still caring for the misguided spouse but simply prioritizing and sacrificing for those who need it the most (our children). Hence, I love you unconditionally spouse/partner, but the unconditional love for our child comes first in that unconditional love scale. The humble parent will understand and agree, the prideful parent will immediately think "you love me less" when less or more is not even an measurement on the scale, another immature response.

Now that I read that, perhaps one cannot place "unconditional" in overlapping circles of love without creating conditions... I'll have to think more about that.

Murdered offspring forms an entirely scale... where one finally lands give different insight to what is conditional and what isn't. The seven emotional stages of grief are usually understood to be shock or disbelief, denial, bargaining, guilt, anger, depression, and acceptance/hope. 

Even if you use the abridged version of the five stages, denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance as part of the framework that makes up our learning to live with great loss, the outcome of conditional and unconditional becomes clear. I suppose it can be compartmentalized, but blocking the healing would be the outcome hanging up on a stage and never completing the cycle... thus a conditional love for self and others when it takes forgiveness and unconditional to truly complete your grief.

This is a good discussion Xenote, just recently I have realized I am beginning a path of understanding unconditional love. It is not without challenge and dissonance, but it does bring the conditional and unconditional "for as long as you both shall love" into new light.

Thank you my TAM friends.


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## arbitrator (Feb 13, 2012)

jld said:


> Maybe Dug will come on and make his own statement about it. He is travelling right now, so is pretty busy.
> 
> I do think he loves me unconditionally. I cannot see him ever stopping loving me.
> 
> ...


*Romans 8:38 (NIV) ~ "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present or the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord".*


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## heartsbeating (May 2, 2011)

Xenote said:


> it was the creation of Psychoanalyst Erich Fromm who was actually noting self-love as the basis for that concept, that we should have unconditional love for oneself, not for others...


This is interesting ...I'd suggest unconditional love for self could include forgiveness, self-respect and compassion. One could develop this and simultaneously recognize when a dynamic (or spouse) isn't healthy or sustainable.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

heartsbeating said:


> This is interesting ...I'd suggest unconditional love for self could include forgiveness, self-respect and compassion. *One could develop this and simultaneously recognize when a dynamic (or spouse) isn't healthy or sustainable*.


I think that that is a very true statement. Your entire post for that matter. I think this is the critical step that some of us don't arrive at until it is too late. As EB said in his post "that to enter marriage without a learned acceptance is also immature". Is the inability to recognize a situation in unhealthy part of being immature?
I know for myself, much of my pain came from this very scenario. I was very immature (not that I think I am not now) emotionally.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> I totally agree... but I would also say that to enter marriage without a learned acceptance is also immature. Problem is, there is no substitute for experience (maturity), and it's only there where our "pickers" get tuned and we weed out the unacceptable (conditional) which makes the unconditional a much easier path... SimplyAmorous is one that has a well-tuned picker and I feel that from every word she posts.


No arguing with your thoughts. True they may be, reality shows we (humans) rarely engage in marriage with enough maturity to have made a wise decision.  As such, we commit to commitment. When the downside of our choice becomes painfully evident, our commitment to the marriage dictates we work very hard to make it right.
@SimplyAmorous indeed is an example of "made for each other" or highly tuned picker at an exceptionally young age, or incredibly fortunate. (She doesn't like it when I label her marriage as a unicorn because it negates the very real worth ethic they both bring to their marriage. But it is that work ethic they both have that makes their marriage so unique.) Their marriage has had problems, like everyone else, but their work ethic enabled them to sail through those problems and remain in love. But what would have happened if one of them didn't have that ethic that informed them with enough confidence that whatever sacrifice either was making was a bargain for what they were getting back? That's where the rest of us mortals struggle, an unequal work ethic in our marriage.





> I have thought about this all day AP... I know my thinking is often seen as too passive for many on this site and I hope I can engage in this conversation with the utmost respect exchanged, at least that is my goal.
> 
> You speak of forfeited love... is this a "Jesus forgives, I don't" kind of conditional love? I am not trying to be contentious, I would simply like to understand your statement... if you were sitting across from me with a coffee as my friend I would ask you the same with a curious smile.


I regret my reputation here necessitates a reminder of respectful discourse. >

No, I don't speak of a vengeful balance of what can not be forgiven. We all can forgive anything, even the murder of a child. But forgiveness doesn't mean we wish to continue to be married to that person. In all the trouble my marriage has been though, I've never wished my husband harm, I've never felt hateful toward him; though I have on occasion been so mad I could spit nails! Even when I was searching for my own home in order to separate and divorce, I still felt love for him. I felt I could not be happy with him and I was tired of being perpetually unhappy.




> If a child is endangered, yet still relatively safe and unharmed, do we really place conditions on the love of a spouse, or do we free our love, still unconditionally, for the sake of those who rely on our providing a safe and nurturing home and environment by still caring for the misguided spouse but simply prioritizing and sacrificing for those who need it the most (our children). Hence, I love you unconditionally spouse/partner, but the unconditional love for our child comes first in that unconditional love scale. The humble parent will understand and agree, the prideful parent will immediately think "you love me less" when less or more is not even an measurement on the scale, another immature response.


I think it's a sliding scale balanced by emotional strength and emotional need. I agree the "love you less or more" misses the mark. 

Only a damaged soul can ever stop loving their child. In fact, a parent capable of not loving their child is an example of a person incapable of any love at all.

We all have weaknesses. We all seek to protect those weaknesses. Protect ourselves because of those weaknesses. We all have to learn where and when our weaknesses have to be addressed and made strong. This runs from superficial to deep. The stronger we are, the more capable we are to sacrifice. The weaker we are, the less capable we are. As we mature, we learn to address weaknesses to make us stronger, and we learn to accept weaknesses because they are just a part of our inherent personality. 

But, one of those weaknesses is fear. Sometimes, maybe a lot of times, we sacrifice due to fear and not due to love. Fear of change, fear of the unknown, fear of failure, fear of being alone, fear of spiders... it is our fear that keeps us married and not a form of sacrificial love. There are as many examples of fear based commitments as there are grains of sand on a beach. Obvious examples like the battered spouse afraid to leave having been conditioned to mistake their fear for continued love; or the fear of being alone which causes us to make do with what we have.



> Now that I read that, perhaps one cannot place "unconditional" in overlapping circles of love without creating conditions... I'll have to think more about that.
> 
> Murdered offspring forms an entirely scale... where one finally lands give different insight to what is conditional and what isn't. The seven emotional stages of grief are usually understood to be shock or disbelief, denial, bargaining, guilt, anger, depression, and acceptance/hope.
> 
> Even if you use the abridged version of the five stages, denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance as part of the framework that makes up our learning to live with great loss, the outcome of conditional and unconditional becomes clear. I suppose it can be compartmentalized, but blocking the healing would be the outcome hanging up on a stage and never completing the cycle... thus a conditional love for self and others when it takes forgiveness and unconditional to truly complete your grief.


Cycling through the 5 or the 7 stages of grief are a result; a pattern forced upon us by the circumstances of great loss. The goal being acceptance/hope. While a failing marriage might cause us to mourn the loss of a happily ever after, thus causing us to cycle through the stages of grief, if we end on acceptance we still have hope that our marriage can be made better. It is the loss of hope, not the acceptance of loss, that ends the marriage. When we no longer have any hope, when we accept that this relationship will always be thus and never be anything but thus, we face a choice. Continue and learn to be content, or leave and find hope for a more fulfilling relationship with someone else. Those that continue without hope have accepted circumstances, not, I believe, found sacrificial love. Those that leave have hope, perhaps unfounded, that happiness can be achieved alone or achieved with someone else. 

Complacency breeds mediocrity. Complacency isn't hopeful. Complacency is lazy. Accepting a relationship in which we must come to terms with a mediocre return is learned complacency. When a marriage consistently fails to meet emotional needs, when a marriage consistently calls for sacrifice after sacrifice, when all possible weaknesses have been addressed, when there is no hope for improvement, to remain married and seek acceptance is the very definition of complacency, no hope for anything better.



> This is a good discussion Xenote, just recently I have realized I am beginning a path of understanding unconditional love. It is not without challenge and dissonance, but it does bring the conditional and unconditional "for as long as you both shall love" into new light.
> 
> Thank you my TAM friends.


I think you are working on understanding the differences between needs vs weaknesses. Are we weak because we need? Maybe. I think it's a fluid definition. I think our standards are informed by our weaknesses and our weaknesses are informed by our standards. The stronger we are, emotionally, the more we can tolerate unmet needs but the more needs we have the less tolerant we are. The circumstances of our unique genetic coding combined with the circumstances of our birth, both being completely out of our control, define our needs. We can learn to live with unmet needs, all or some. But we cannot not have that need. Accepting ourselves for who we are and what we need means we seek a balance between seeking some needs to being met, and accepting some needs are actually just a weakness in ourselves that we must work on ourselves. Take for instance the need for admiration. We could insist our spouse try to meet it, or we could learn self admiration. We have to first accept that we have that need. How or why we have that need is only significant relative to our own scale of weakness vs need. It is a weakness to need constant admiration, but it is not a weakness to need to be admired by our spouse. It is not a weakness to need our spouse to think well of us.

I need more coffee. Both a weakness and a need.


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## turnera (Jan 22, 2010)

uhtred said:


> Why should love of a spouse be less permanent and less violable than love for a child?


In a perfect world, it shouldn't. Just like socialism would work in a perfect world.

Of course, you can still LOVE your spouse if your spouse is refusing to meet your needs and still divorce them and move on. 

But if you mean unconditional love as in, you will never leave that person because you're choosing to love them forever no matter how YOUR life is turning out, I think that's not only folly, but harmful to the person choosing to do the harm.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

I love my children, and I would die for my children...just not at their own hands.


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## Lostinthought61 (Nov 5, 2013)

jld said:


> I don't think so. He says I do, though, even if I do not realize it.


do you think that is more faith than love?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

I said it before - Unconditional love is a giant sign that says abuse me. I agree with your caveat though, religion for me, and I can understand Kids. Though if you kid is a bad seed and kills someone not sure if that holds true. 

I believe in love, on the condition of respect and dignity. This is not to be seen as my love is a reward, it just means that if you treat me without respect or dignity I am not going to able to stay in love with you. My contempt for what you have done to me will kill my love. I would also separate myself from you because I would probably still love you for a while at least and I wouldn't want to hurt or treat someone I love badly as I know I would when I was dealing with my pain.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Xenote said:


> do you think that is more faith than love?


Not sure. @Duguesclin, what do you think?


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

```

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Xenote said:


> do you think that is more faith than love?


I believe love is an act of faith.


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## sokillme (Jun 10, 2016)

Here is another question, do you want or expect your spouse to love you unconditionally?

I for one would not. I like that I have to earn her love. It feels like more of an accomplishment.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

sokillme said:


> Here is another question, do you want or expect your spouse to love you unconditionally?
> 
> I for one would not. I like that I have to earn her love. It feels like more of an accomplishment.


I did not expect it. I just got it. An undeserved gift.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

uhtred said:


> Why should love of a spouse be less perminent and less violable than love for a child?


I totally agree with this. However, I would argue that, far too often, parents claiming the love for their children is unconditional would let their pride act against their offspring's interest.

For example, how many parents are pushing expensive schools with big name recognition on their kids just to be able to brag about it while their kids are left with the big loans.

Also, love is not a spark. Love is a commitment. This is why it can and should be unconditional. Love is building something bigger than ourselves.

Love is not the same as commitment. But like faith, mentioned in some earlier posts, it has to be an integral part of it.

You cannot build a long lasting healthy marriage without unconditional love. But unconditional love cannot be demanded in return. It can only be given.


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

@Duguesclin

As usual, I almost fully agree in part.


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## Duguesclin (Jan 18, 2014)

Anon Pink said:


> @Duguesclin
> 
> As usual, I almost fully agree in part.


AP, do you feel loved unconditionally? 

Do you feel your husband is not working on the marriage, which means to you that he does not love you?

As a consequence, do you feel that your love for him is fading away?

Then, is it the reason that unconditional love is, for you, impossible or unrealistic?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Emerging Buddhist said:


> I totally agree... but I would also say that to enter marriage without a learned acceptance is also immature. Problem is, there is no substitute for experience (maturity), and it's only there where our "pickers" get tuned and we weed out the unacceptable (conditional) which makes the unconditional a much easier path... SimplyAmorous is one that has a well-tuned picker and I feel that from every word she posts.





Anon Pink said:


> No arguing with your thoughts. True they may be, reality shows we (humans) rarely engage in marriage with enough maturity to have made a wise decision.  As such, we commit to commitment. When the downside of our choice becomes painfully evident, our commitment to the marriage dictates we work very hard to make it right.
> 
> @SimplyAmorous indeed is an example of "made for each other" or highly tuned picker at an exceptionally young age, or incredibly fortunate. (She doesn't like it when I label her marriage as a unicorn because it negates the very real worth ethic they both bring to their marriage. But it is that work ethic they both have that makes their marriage so unique.) Their marriage has had problems, like everyone else, but their work ethic enabled them to sail through those problems and remain in love. But what would have happened if one of them didn't have that ethic that informed them with enough confidence that whatever sacrifice either was making was a bargain for what they were getting back? That's where the rest of us mortals struggle, an unequal work ethic in our marriage.


Appreciated your words @Emerging Buddhist and @Anon Pink ... just my thoughts on us.. I picked his brain relentlessly when we met.. he didn't mind ! (right there showed he wasn't the average guy)...he loved the attention... here began our story...realizing WOW... we just wanted the same things in life & love...he was an answer to my prayers, literally ... and as he tells it.. It was like I just "fell out of the sky & onto his lap"...

I posted here yrs ago...I owe how Easy that "work ethic" has been to our "Compatibility" in so many areas... It just makes for a much smoother ride -for any couple... 

http://talkaboutmarriage.com/long-term-success-marriage/60170-your-success-due-compatibility.html 

Add to this... we haven't had anything truly TRAGIC befall us (yet)..... these are huge fears of mine- as they would be for anyone.... such as a debilitating disease/ illness/ cancer...watching a child in pain, being helpless ...watching a child die...-I can't imagine living through this....(the worst has been seeing our sons heartbroken by girls -very typical stuff!)... 

Little things always go wrong... sometimes in great succession even...I have to remind myself..."It's temporary! Life is good!" .. yesterday.. our 9 yr old got a bad bloody nose at school, had to run him clothes.. this morning...got another call. he collided with a kid in gym class, his glasses dug into his cheek & left a bleeding gash.. had to run to the school again to pick him up.. Little things.. I tell myself.. "Little things".. and you breath a sigh of relief.. that's how you handle the stressful.. and we kiss each other goodnight thanking God that is all that happened..

I don't think I will get my husband to answer on here like Dug has.. but there was a thread yrs ago we were both on -that turned into an *"Unconditional love" discussion*...my husband gave his thoughts to this question - http://talkaboutmarriage.com/sex-marriage/60428-do-you-love-your-wife-more-than-sex.html (below)..Granted he is more of an "Unconditional Lover" type over me....we've talked about this.. If I ever did a Susan Smith.. Hell No.. there would be no forgiveness! .. if I ever cheated.. he may take me back. but it would NEVER be the same, something would be irrevocably lost between us we could never get back.. (as it should be)...

Then I gave my response to his...(I probably sound awful and have no patience at all !).... the funny thing about this is.. my husband loves me all the same- he accepts me & my weaknesses here ... 



> SA's husband said:
> 
> 
> > Not sure why I am like this but my wifes heart has always been more important than sex. If she could not have sex I would at least still have her, to spend time with and her bubbly personallity, and still have all good memories together.
> ...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

Duguesclin said:


> AP, do you feel loved unconditionally?
> 
> Do you feel your husband is not working on the marriage, which means to you that he does not love you?
> 
> ...



You ask excellent questions that make think in terms I've never thought about.

Yes, I feel like he loves me. He can't show love in ways that are meaningful to me. He simply isn't wired that way. I don't feel unconditional love and I'm not sure I would want it to be honest. I would expect my husband to expect effort from me. Effort to be my best or as close to it as possible given the circumstances. I have those expectations for myself too. I don't expect that his love for me is easily lost but if I ignored him or didn't try to make him feel loved I would expect his love to fade. 

Yes, I think unconditional love is both impossible and unrealistic. Maybe I'm warped.


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## Spotthedeaddog (Sep 27, 2015)

Xenote said:


> Unconditional love,


As we would tell the children when they've been truly despicable; "I still love you, but at the moment I don't like you very much"


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

Some thoughts from the learned:

Do You Believe in Unconditional Love - Psychology Today

Soulmates and Unconditional Love - PsychCentral

A religious explanation from just one denomination.


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

I don't believe in unconditional love.

The deepest love I ever experienced was from my grandmother.

Parental love is laughable to me; based on my experience.


God's love is highly conditional. Reference material: most of the Old Testament. Or in the New Testament: believe in Jesus, or you're not saved. If you believe in Jesus; don't commit the "unforgivable sin" [Mark 3:28-30]


All love has conditions; as it should. Love is earned. People love others because that person gratifies them on some level. That's what human's are.


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## EllaSuaveterre (Oct 2, 2016)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I don't believe in unconditional love.
> 
> The deepest love I ever experienced was from my grandmother.
> 
> ...


I hate to like this but it's true. I wish it weren't. I wish I were eternally and unconditionally loving, but I'm not. I wish other people were, but so far I haven't met anyone who is, except maybe my husband, and even then his expression of love isn't always 100% perfectly what I dream it would be. Even God's love has conditions, though it tends to exasperate Christians when I point this out. People need things. Ergo, people are selfish... unless of course the person chooses never to express those needs and always, always put themselves last. Such extreme kindness is admirable, but stupid, and possibly pathological.
.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

Being intentionally vague here to protect the identity of a friend who grew up with me.

A lady I knew well in childhood and adolescence was a woman of faith and believed in unconditional love and til death do you part with all of her being right up until she found out her husband had been sexually abusing their daughter for years and had had sex with a few of their daughters teenage friends. Turns out, love is conditional after all.

We all like to imagine unconditional love, but those imaginings rarely include the truly horrific and yet horrific happens to people the world over all day every day. Unconditional love would literally mean loving someone no matter the atrocity they commit.


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## Emerging Buddhist (Apr 7, 2016)

Anon Pink said:


> As such, we commit to commitment. When the downside of our choice becomes painfully evident, our commitment to the marriage dictates we work very hard to make it right.


And How!




Anon Pink said:


> I regret my reputation here necessitates a reminder of respectful discourse. >


I always preface a drift into religious discussion with an open mind and heart... and like to put that our front as a "pre-diffuser" because some get pretty wound up (religion and politics) and I know your political viewpoint, just not you religious one so better to tread with caution and respect.




Anon Pink said:


> No, I don't speak of a vengeful balance of what can not be forgiven. We all can forgive anything, even the murder of a child. But forgiveness doesn't mean we wish to continue to be married to that person. In all the trouble my marriage has been though, I've never wished my husband harm, I've never felt hateful toward him; though I have on occasion been so mad I could spit nails! Even when I was searching for my own home in order to separate and divorce, I still felt love for him. I felt I could not be happy with him and I was tired of being perpetually unhappy.


I agree, forgiveness is not charity of forgetting... you want to be able to allow a different path, a power to choose your feelings.

I was not as kind... I did wish bad things on my ex for her infidelity, horrible things that came true. I have known unconditional hate... perhaps that is one of many reasons why truly understanding unconditional love is so important to me right now. I have a lot to make up for... a lifelong journey.



Anon Pink said:


> I think it's a sliding scale balanced by emotional strength and emotional need. I agree the "love you less or more" misses the mark.
> 
> Only a damaged soul can ever stop loving their child. In fact, a parent capable of not loving their child is an example of a person incapable of any love at all.
> 
> ...


You are correct, our weaknesses will always be there... it's the strength around them that brings success.





Anon Pink said:


> Cycling through the 5 or the 7 stages of grief are a result; a pattern forced upon us by the circumstances of great loss. The goal being acceptance/hope. While a failing marriage might cause us to mourn the loss of a happily ever after, thus causing us to cycle through the stages of grief, if we end on acceptance we still have hope that our marriage can be made better. It is the loss of hope, not the acceptance of loss, that ends the marriage. When we no longer have any hope, when we accept that this relationship will always be thus and never be anything but thus, we face a choice. Continue and learn to be content, or leave and find hope for a more fulfilling relationship with someone else. Those that continue without hope have accepted circumstances, not, I believe, found sacrificial love. Those that leave have hope, perhaps unfounded, that happiness can be achieved alone or achieved with someone else.
> 
> Complacency breeds mediocrity. Complacency isn't hopeful. Complacency is lazy. Accepting a relationship in which we must come to terms with a mediocre return is learned complacency. When a marriage consistently fails to meet emotional needs, when a marriage consistently calls for sacrifice after sacrifice, when all possible weaknesses have been addressed, when there is no hope for improvement, to remain married and seek acceptance is the very definition of complacency, no hope for anything better.


I believe a lot of that hope and acceptance is driven through compassion, and compassion is (to me) an essential part of understanding and applying unconditional love.




Anon Pink said:


> I think you are working on understanding the differences between needs vs weaknesses. Are we weak because we need? Maybe. I think it's a fluid definition. I think our standards are informed by our weaknesses and our weaknesses are informed by our standards. The stronger we are, emotionally, the more we can tolerate unmet needs but the more needs we have the less tolerant we are. The circumstances of our unique genetic coding combined with the circumstances of our birth, both being completely out of our control, define our needs. We can learn to live with unmet needs, all or some. But we cannot not have that need. Accepting ourselves for who we are and what we need means we seek a balance between seeking some needs to being met, and accepting some needs are actually just a weakness in ourselves that we must work on ourselves. Take for instance the need for admiration. We could insist our spouse try to meet it, or we could learn self admiration. We have to first accept that we have that need. How or why we have that need is only significant relative to our own scale of weakness vs need. It is a weakness to need constant admiration, but it is not a weakness to need to be admired by our spouse. It is not a weakness to need our spouse to think well of us.


Wants and needs... yes, those can be problematic because to live means you are going to have to experience some kind of suffering, and usually for the driving desire of wants and needs. Much of what you share relate to the Nobel Truths I strive now to live by.

In the end, our weaknesses are driven by our needs and desires, it's only when our needs and desires begin to drive us into unhealthy patterns is it necessary to understand why we have lost sight of the present and align ourselves with where we need to be to have our balance you spoke of.

Unconditional love, a practice of non-attachment from self-centered motivations... still working on that journey, still working to understand that journey. I have been introduced to love without being in love with fidelity, a seemingly odd-duck. My understandings are still a work in progress... that I have never gotten angry over it tells me I am on the right path to understanding, but I need more calm in it's lesson.

I like how another poster said it's to be given without any expectations or demands of return.

And we won't get into spiders...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

One thing I can't understand.. is when people say they love someone , they have forgiven them.. but want nothing to do with them... to me. I would rather have someone hate me if they want nothing to do with me.. that sounds more HONEST over saying nice things when their heart is far from you & they never want to see you again... 

Forgiving another so we're not tormenting ourselves, the pain replaying on our minds, having that power over us.. so we can move on - YES ... we need to do this to be free!!... but calling it LOVE seems terribly disingenuous to me... I wouldn't want that sort of love... what good it is ?? 

This is something I can not reconcile in my head.. I don't love everyone.. if You treat me like a dog, put me down, belittle me... I don't care who you are ... I won't like you....let alone love you.. 

I spoke about this in my Unconditional love thread.. and I'm with @notmyrealname4 ...it doesn't exist in the Bible either ...but true.. people have different interpretations of these things.. 



> I think there is some division on whether LOVE is a Feeling vs. a Choice. I feel it is both. Either one requires some ACTION to demonstrate.
> 
> In the down times (when we are hurt, wounded) we have to make it a conscious *CHOICE *to love - despite how we feel -this , along with giving actions , should lead to those "reconnecting emotions" - if reconciliation happens with the other.......in the good times, the feelings just flow like water. Actions come easy, they are a joy to give, even a compulsion to please the other.
> 
> ...


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## Anon Pink (Jan 17, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> One thing I can't understand.. is when people say they love someone , they have forgiven them.. but want nothing to do with them... to me. I would rather have someone hate me if they want nothing to do with me.. that sounds more HONEST over saying nice things when their heart is far from you & they never want to see you again...
> 
> Forgiving another so we're not tormenting ourselves, the pain replaying on our minds, having that power over us.. so we can move on - YES ... we need to do this to be free!!... but calling it LOVE seems terribly disingenuous to me... I wouldn't want that sort of love... what good it is ??
> 
> ...



When you forgive someone, you end the cycle of your own bad feelings about what they did and how that hurt. Essentially, it is ending the hurt/anger/hate pattern when that person is present or comes to mind.

My oldest sister is someone I cut off from my life a few years ago. I could never hate her and since she will always be my sister I will always feel love toward her. But I want nothing to do with her, don't want to interact with her, don't want to converse with her, or even be in the same room with her. For a long time I became extremely agitated and hyper sensitive when ever I had to be around her. Everything she said or did would be something I noticed and something I would later analyze as more fodder for intense dislike. But recently I've begun to let it go. When forced to be around her I did not become hyper sensitive and hyper aware of her or how she acted. I didn't like how I felt and what it did to me. By forgiving her, I've been able to remain truer to who I am when around her rather than purely reactionary, sullen, and other negative feelings and actions. I still want nothing to do with her, but by forgiving her I have let go of the reaction that I find negative and no longer necessary.

You've talked about problems you had growing up due to your mother's behavior. Have your forgiven her? How do you feel about her? How do you feel about her behavior and how it hurt you? Have you let it go or does it still hurt or anger you?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Anon Pink said:


> When you forgive someone, you end the cycle of your own bad feelings about what they did and how that hurt. Essentially, it is ending the hurt/anger/hate pattern when that person is present or comes to mind.
> 
> My oldest sister is someone I cut off from my life a few years ago. I could never hate her and since she will always be my sister I will always feel love toward her. But I want nothing to do with her, don't want to interact with her, don't want to converse with her, or even be in the same room with her. For a long time I became extremely agitated and hyper sensitive when ever I had to be around her. Everything she said or did would be something I noticed and something I would later analyze as more fodder for intense dislike. But recently I've begun to let it go. When forced to be around her I did not become hyper sensitive and hyper aware of her or how she acted. I didn't like how I felt and what it did to me. By forgiving her, I've been able to remain truer to who I am when around her rather than purely reactionary, sullen, and other negative feelings and actions. I still want nothing to do with her, but by forgiving her I have let go of the reaction that I find negative and no longer necessary.
> 
> You've talked about problems you had growing up due to your mother's behavior. Have your forgiven her? How do you feel about her? How do you feel about her behavior and how it hurt you? Have you let it go or does it still hurt or anger you?


My mother never treated me badly.. she was messed up (nervous breakdown -which led to many bad things).. I am the one thing in her life she got right and is proud of...I've never not felt loved by my Mother... 

It was my Step mother who treated me badly.. I hated her as a teen.. but that relationship turned around.. and we've been good for 20 + years...(even she told me if anyone had a right to bi*ch it was me).... I am very very thankful for her today for being such a wonderful devoted wife to my father -more than anything else.. I love my father probably because I am a lot like him...but yet we are not close... (I only see them about 5 times a year)

My mother.. .. caring about her, trying to help her.. I wasted many years & tears believing it may make a difference....I wanted HER to find happiness...this would make me unspeakably happy....I do not hold any ill will against her in regards to me...my life is good... it's not how you have described your feelings with your sister .... we do laugh & enjoy ourselves when we get together, we have some things in common anyway. we can laugh about the differences... Because I do love her.. it's more painful... sorrowful somehow...it's a difficult subject for me..


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> One thing I can't understand.. is when people say they love someone , they have forgiven them.. but want nothing to do with them... to me. I would rather have someone hate me if they want nothing to do with me.. that sounds more HONEST over saying nice things when their heart is far from you & they never want to see you again...
> 
> Forgiving another so we're not tormenting ourselves, the pain replaying on our minds, having that power over us.. so we can move on - YES ... we need to do this to be free!!... but calling it LOVE seems terribly disingenuous to me... I wouldn't want that sort of love... what good it is ??
> 
> ...


We're of one mind there. I don't get this need to forgive. And I don't get this need to create a "forgive Lite" ie, please just say the words and then you can hope to do what you want.

I was a bit annoyed speaking to a friend as we were talking about someone we know in common. I dropped my friendship with her while my friend stays in touch with her. And she then had to remark in the conversation ~"but I forgive more than you do." 

in case anyone hasn't noticed, I'm not for unconditional love as well. Anyone who believes in it is doing themselves a disfavour Believing in it will only make a partner sloppy in their marriage instead of assuming that normal give and take should never be taken for granted.


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## EllisRedding (Apr 10, 2015)

I love my W. Do I love her unconditionally, no. Do I believe she loves me unconditionally, no. IDK, unconditional just makes it some sort of Hollywood fairytale which is probably where it should remain. If you think you have unconditional love for your SO, you might have some crossed up wiring, or maybe more along the lines of a stalker :grin2:


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

EllisRedding said:


> I love my W. Do I love her unconditionally, no. Do I believe she loves me unconditionally, no. IDK, unconditional just makes it some sort of Hollywood fairytale which is probably where it should remain. If you think you have unconditional love for your SO, you might have some crossed up wiring, or maybe more along the lines of a stalker :grin2:


Stalkers having unconditional love for their stalkee, I'm not sure. A guy stalked me in my late 20s. He claimed he loved me but what led to our breaking up was that I did so many things that did not make him happy. He was always the one threatening to break up with me.

Ergo, unconditional love starts to look kind of ugly.


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

I thought about this a lot after my divorce. When I was married, I imagined that I loved her unconditionally. But afterwards I realized that I wasn't happy in the marriage. The unhappiness stemmed from certain conditions that were not being met. Therefore I did NOT love her unconditionally, I in fact had conditions attached to my love. My love was conditional. I think everyone's is, at least for a spouse. After all we don't just love for no reason. We give love to another because they enhance our lives, the condition being enhancement of our lives.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

According to the "What is love", link, we find love for others partially in looking for the good in them. We grow in mature love by doing things for them. 

I think I have that figured out correctly. I am a little confused and have several thoughts.

When does that looking for good supersede the wisdom of getting some return for the investment? In other words, I think looking too hard for the good in others will cause us to stay in a relationship that has been due for termination for a long time. I think we can easily fall into deep denial. At what point do we look for the object of our affections to love us through actions, in return. How much love in action is enough? 

On the other hand, how much love in action is obsession? 

I suppose the last question is based upon the amount of love in action we receive in return combined with the opinion of the object of our affection and their level of desire to look for the good in the giver?

It's complicated and confusing. I really liked that link. Thank you SA.


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## Talker67 (Apr 7, 2016)

love wanes and waxes over a long reltionship. It is important to keep re-invnting things, to make it fresh and grow again.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

NextTimeAround said:


> * that normal give and take should never be taken for granted.*


 I've thought of doing a thread on this.. as it seems so prevalent... when someone is GOOD to us.. why do we so often take it for granted ? You'd think an appreciation would rise up so we'd want to give back.. 

Is it because we don't trust the motives.. maybe a "covert contract" thing going on.. or a "No more Mr Nice Guy" type goodness ... or is it just something in our nature that we eventually start taking those around us who show love & care consistently, like they are too easy.. maybe it goes to our heads.. we get puffed up instead of being appreciative & giving back ?

I've always felt...Genuine forgiveness after a deep hurt /feelings of betrayal ...this can't come easy....there will be an emotional struggle here... it takes time, if any reconciliation... a lot more than an olive branch is needed...

I've always found it much easier to forgive a friend , for example, if they still want me in their lives...in comparison to facing a deep wound/ betrayal -and the person is Gone, and we're just left to "eat it" alone..... I haven't really experienced this so much in my own life.. but I felt a son's pain with a blindsiding breakup -that included the betrayal of a friend... I still hate that guy.. sorry to say, and this wasn't even done to me...


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## Ynot (Aug 26, 2014)

So a question to all those expressing a belief in unconditional love - 

What if you found out the target of your unconditional love was cheating on you, abusing your children or otherwise violating your trust and that of others you love?
I believe if you honestly answer the question you would see that even your "unconditional love" in fact does have conditions. It is only given as long as some condition is met. They may in fact be extreme conditions, but they are conditions all the same.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> One thing I can't understand.. is when people say they love someone , they have forgiven them.. but want nothing to do with them... to me. I would rather have someone hate me if they want nothing to do with me.. that sounds more HONEST over saying nice things when their heart is far from you & they never want to see you again....


I love my siblings. I have forgiven them much. I will always love them because they are my kin and because they are much younger than me and I was more mother than sister due to our mothers disability and early death. That said, I do NOT want them in my life because they are just so much drama and bull****. 

The confusingly honest truth is that I do love them, but having them actively in my life is not good for me.


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## MSalmoides (Sep 29, 2016)

...


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I've thought of doing a thread on this.. as it seems so prevalent...* when someone is GOOD to us.. why do we so often take it for granted ? * You'd think an appreciation would rise up so we'd want to give back..
> 
> Is it because we don't trust the motives.. maybe a "covert contract" thing going on.. or a "No more Mr Nice Guy" type goodness ... or is it just something in our nature that we eventually start taking those around us who show love & care consistently, like they are too easy.. maybe it goes to our heads.. we get puffed up instead of being appreciative & giving back ?
> 
> ...


Good question. I've noticed that attraction at all different levels can be so counter intuitive. Even at the friendship level, why is the b1tchy girl in the group the most popular?

Why are employers more keen to hire someone who has / looks as if they might have options elsewhere?


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MJJEAN said:


> I love my siblings. I have forgiven them much. I will always love them because they are my kin and because they are much younger than me and I was more mother than sister due to our mothers disability and early death. That said, I do NOT want them in my life because they are just so much drama and bull****.
> 
> The confusingly honest truth is that I do love them, but having them actively in my life is not good for me.


I completely understand how some relatives, if too dysfunctional, bat crazy dragging in drama...what if they have stolen from you, tried to seduce a spouse , brought shady people to your house, could be hundreds of scenarios to no longer want someone in our lives... we need to protect ourselves and our families.. YES!

But on their end...you say you love them...How would they know this... *do they feel your love - in any tangible way? * Do you at least send them a Christmas card to say.. "Hey I was thinking of you?"... 

I've watched a couple of those "Intervention" programs on TV.. very DIRE stories...some relatives completely cut off the addicted person from their lives.. they can't deal with them anymore, it has the power to hurt their own lives (speaking honestly here I'd cut them off myself)..... then some relatives will hang on.. keep trying.. never give up.. go the extra mile..keep coming around... *consistently showing they care*...I often look at these -like Damn.. what amazing people, it's so moving, sacrificial of them.... I have gotten emotional - feeling THEIR LOVE just watching the dang show.. ... what strength.. what resolve to not give up.. not abandon this person .... 

Here is the thing...all of them will say "I love ______".... but only a few are showing Love in action... 

For me...that is what Love is.. being there...knowing when you are down & out.. you can call this person who says they love you.. and they will be there for you...

I have an Aunt.. she has caused some grief over the years (won't go into that here).... sure there are some good memories way back.. but like you....I don't want anything to do with her.. . I don't care that she is a blood relative... she isn't going to feel "care" coming from me.. me checking in on her, wanting to spend time with her, call her ... she has gotten mad over this & said some choice things about me even...

If I see her out & about.. I'll be civil to her.. we may reminisce some old times even... but I always try to get away without her wanting more contact..

Now I know from her end, she's the type to say & feel..."Family is family.....you gotta love family no matter what they do"... I can't say I am this person... I guess I am cold.... If I say I love someone.. I need to be able to back it up with showing action ...

I think I am in the minority on this perspective though...

Just talked to my husband.. he can understand SAYING you love someone but not wanting them in your life.. but then the more I talked.. he seemed to feel I had a point too.. (I am thinking more from the abandoned one's perspective here)


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

I found this definition on Quora.com (love that site)... the reason I say I don't believe in Unconditional love myself Is ... I can't help but conjure up horrible scenarios where it's damaging to keep loving when one has been betrayed or abused, becoming a doormat is never Ok... 

However...if you take 2 healthy giving individuals (or one more so -to influence the other)....I can easily understand and agree with this post describing "Unconditional love"..... reading this...it fits my husband , just how he is ,has always been....and he's changed my life for the better.. 

When we met...I had some anger issues going on due to my home life, he certainly gave more than me...He always saw the best in me......(even if I don't like some of my family.. he didn't want my Aunt around either).... 



> *What does unconditional love really mean?*
> 
> We all understand the meaning of 'love' like:
> 
> ...


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## notmyrealname4 (Apr 9, 2014)

Anon Pink;16982409
My oldest sister is someone I cut off from my life a few years ago. . . . . By forgiving her said:


> I still want nothing to do with her, but by forgiving her I have let go of the reaction that I find negative and no longer necessary.
> [/B]





MJJEAN said:


> I love my siblings. I have forgiven them much. . . . .
> The confusingly honest truth is that I do love them, but having them actively in my life is not good for me.



I don't think that you have to be physically around people in order to "prove" that you have forgiven them.

I believe that forgiveness is in your own state of mind. Only you need to know if you honestly, from your heart, forgive someone. And if you believe in God, then of course, he knows that you honestly forgive someone.

If you know that having the person actually participating in your life is going to cause you more anxiety and pain than you can bear; then I truly believe it's not only okay, but a good idea to remain apart. We're all only human, and there's only so much betrayal, lies, and resources you can give to someone who has actively tried to hurt and use you.




NextTimeAround said:


> I've noticed that attraction at all different levels can be so counter intuitive. Even at the friendship level,* why is the b1tchy girl in the group the most popular?
> 
> Why are employers more keen to hire someone who has / looks as if they might have options elsewhere?*




Because everyone wants what they can't have. It's hard to get the approval of b.tchy people. People with more options are desired by other people; and are harder to please. Scarcity (even just _perceived_ scarcity), increases value; ergo, some of the screwy machinations of the stock market.




SimplyAmorous said:


> But on their end...you say you love them...*How would they know this... **do they feel your love - in any tangible way? * Do you at least send them a Christmas card to say.. "Hey I was thinking of you?"...
> 
> ..... *then some relatives will hang on.. keep trying.. never give up.. go the extra mile..keep coming around...* *consistently showing they care*...I often look at these -like Damn.. what amazing people, it's so moving, sacrificial of them.... I have gotten emotional - feeling THEIR LOVE just watching the dang show.. ... what strength.. what resolve to not give up.. not abandon this person ....
> 
> ...



I think that about these type of self-sacrificing, almost saintly type of people too, SA.

Maybe it's a spiritual gift? I will gladly concede that, if those people are sincere in that devotion; that they are more advanced than me. Hats off to them.

Perhaps demonstration of love occurs on a spectrum. For my mother and sisters, the best I can do is not ill-wish them; and say prayers for their well being and happiness. I can't honestly do anything more. I'm still in pain, and I couldn't trust any of them as far as I could throw them.

So, I'm at a "1" on the demonstration-of-love-and-forgiveness spectrum, as far as they are concerned. Oh well, at least I'm not sitting and stewing and hoping that terrible things happen to them. I guess I believe in so-called "magical thinking", to an extent. Thoughts and prayers have an energy to them. Something emanates from you as a result of what you think about.

I realize more advanced types would be actively making contact and sending Facebook messages, so on and so forth. How they can overlook outright abuse and betrayals that have never been apologized for??? I don't know. All I know is, I don't have that ability and I'm not going to pretend that I do. 


Besides, isn't love supposed to be precious and significant. If I give love and forgiveness to *everyone*, no matter *what* they do to me; then my love isn't valuable; my love is come by pretty cheaply.


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

jld said:


> Thank you, far. That is such a beautiful passage. And I definitely believe it describes my husband's love and commitment to me. *I think some humans can love like God loves.*



No they can't but I do think some can come a lot closer than others.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I don't think that you have to be physically around people in order to "prove" that you have forgiven them.
> 
> I believe that forgiveness is in your own state of mind. Only you need to know if you honestly, from your heart, forgive someone. And if you believe in God, then of course, he knows that you honestly forgive someone.
> 
> ...


and you're also not plotting your revenge against them. Considering pretty soon we'll have a Commander in Retalitations, I consider not being revengeful a real achievement.

Ah, yes, but there is the notion "living well is the best revenge." So if you do well once you part ways, omg, you are being vengeful. What on earth can we do?


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## Mostlycontent (Apr 16, 2014)

Rowan said:


> I think it's foolish to imagine that unconditional romantic love is actually even possible in a healthy and sustainable way. Unconditional love means that no matter how that person behaves or treats you, you will continue to love them just the same. So, if your spouse cheats on you, hits you, blows every cent of your joint retirement account on a weekend bender in Vegas, molests a child or tries to kill you - unconditional love would dictate that you still love them in the same way as you did prior to their bad acts. I'm not sure it's really possible, and certainly wouldn't be considered at all healthy. Can you really still have warm fuzzy, wanna jump your bones, snuggly, giddy, in love-ness for a partner who just....oh, let's say, shot you three times in an attempt to cash in on your life insurance policy so they could run off with their lover? Now, for the most part, relationships aren't dealing with such extreme examples of bad behavior. But there are myriad examples of bad behavior of the much more mundane variety that make it equally difficult to maintain romantic love.
> 
> I still care about my ex-husband to a certain extent. I wish him well, hope he is happy, and would be sad if anything bad befell him. I care for him, in a platonic way that leads me to not hate him or wish him dead - much like the mailman who's name I can never remember or the clerk at my local supermarket. But we're divorced because finding out he was a serial cheater did, in fact, destroy my romantic love for him. Because, as much as I really did love him, romantic love isn't _really_ unconditional. If it were, then cheating wouldn't matter, sexless marriages wouldn't matter, abuse wouldn't matter. None of those things would negatively impact romantic feeling for the offending partner. And, yet, I think most would agree that remaining with a partner who treats you deplorably is neither healthy nor even particularly loving or lovable. That sort of boundary-less existence is more in the realm of extreme co-dependence, rather than healthy romantic love.



I agree with what you say here and you've also raised a distinguishing point. There is a difference between love and romantic love. Now can you love a spouse or significant other unconditionally? I believe you could love them unconditionally, even if the marriage failed, but you couldn't love them unconditionally in a romantic love kind of way.

I think people often toss both terms around interchangeably and they are not the same thing. If my wife were to run off with another man and leave me, obviously I could no longer love her romantically and would have to choose not to love her in that way for if I did not do that, it would be extremely harmful to me. I could choose to always love her and care about her well being but that is not the same kind of love. I think we as human beings should have that kind of love for each other. In fact, most religious texts require us to do that. That is definitely not the same thing as romantic love though.

I do not think that unconditional romantic love is possible. There are always conditions or boundaries for that kind of love to exist and if they are violated, then so is the romantic love.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

I am wondering now who created the concept / term "unconditional love?"

I think it is a useful concept for those people who choose to become parents either to their biological children or to those whom they adopt or "adopt."

But even so, that does not always happen. In western society, family values is about helping the individual to self actualise. However, there are still western parents who want to pick and choose friends, dating partners, after school activities and long term interests.......... How many parents are known to say "I'll pay for education to this but not to that......" The correct answer should "This is how much I can help you (if at all) to do whatever you want ........"


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## joannacroc (Dec 17, 2014)

My friend put it this way - I will know I have the right long-term partner when I find someone I would happily take care of if they were in a car accident and confined to a bed for the rest of their life. It's extreme, but generally, the idea is that you're there for someone through thick and thin. When people talk about "unconditional love" I think they mean, "I'll be there for you even when things are ****ty." 

I agree with the idea the someone who is abusive to children, to their spouse, or who is unfaithful might well be crossing boundaries that would make their spouse lose love for them. 

After my marriage failed, I thought a lot about boundaries, about romantic, unconditional love. Cheating turned out to be a deal-breaker for me. So did drinking, over-eating to the point of obesity, and total disinterest in our son. I wouldn't want flowers, poetry and overblown Sparks-type love for the rest of my life. How exhausting would that feel? I'd be happy with someone who is a good role model for my son, with whom I have some common interests, who is kind, fun and faithful, who enjoys sex, and who has healthy boundaries. I think love is conditional, though, because almost always when the sex wanes, when there is a loss of affection in the marriage, one spouse feels that the marriage could end if the situation continues. 

Those who stay in abusive marriages, to take an extreme, I would argue don't stay because of unconditional love, but because they are afraid of what will happen to them if they leave.


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## 2ntnuf (Jul 14, 2012)

> "When people talk about "unconditional love" I think they mean, 'I'll be there for you even when things are ****ty.'"


Thanks for this. I agree. It's a very good example of the main issue in long-term relationships. Everyone seems to have a definitions that's a little different. It's very difficult to explain what a person sees and feels within their mind to help their potential mate understand. It's also assumed they do understand when those love chemicals start to flow. It's only years later, after plenty of issues, that someone or both decide they really weren't very compatible. 




> "I completely understand how some relatives, if too dysfunctional, bat crazy dragging in drama...what if they have stolen from you, tried to seduce a spouse , brought shady people to your house, could be hundreds of scenarios to no longer want someone in our lives... we need to protect ourselves and our families.. YES!
> 
> But on their end...you say you love them...How would they know this... do they feel your love - in any tangible way? Do you at least send them a Christmas card to say.. "Hey I was thinking of you?"... "


So, this is an example, to me, of the kind of love they talked about in that link you posted. There is the love we feel for another when think of all the good things they did in the past or the few in the present. That love we feel when we consider them as the baby or toddler we knew and loved with action on top of the feelings. That love we feel when we consider that innocent child and how they must have gone through some awful things to be who they are today, as an adult. No? 

I think that love we feel without providing action to show it to them, is the first type of love in that link. Without being able to see the good in others; the potential we hope they will use for their achievements; the glimmer of hope and dreams in their eyes; the way they hug someone that subtly shows their humanity; I don't think we can love or respect them. 

I think we choose not to love them by ignoring those signs. I think we chose to take those signs we see and place them in the context of, "they did it for themselves", "they were trying to manipulate my feelings to get something", or any number of other reasons we can see right here on TAM when a couple is breaking up.

I think "love in action" is really charity. 



> Definition of charity
> plural charities
> 1
> :* benevolent goodwill toward or love of humanity
> ...


I know most think of charity as almsgiving. I know we tend to think of the Salvation Army donations this time of year. I think we miss the full meaning when we only think of that definition. It's much more. Love is freely given. We can be given alms by our spouse, have our clothes washed, the garbage taken out, the oil changed in our car, the checkbook balanced, given that trip to Cancun we dreamed about, a much needed hug, care when ill, and dinner made when we get home from work late. Those are all acts of charity.


Here are some examples and a link to where I found this definition.



> Synonym Discussion of charity
> mercy, charity, clemency, grace, leniency mean a disposition to show kindness or compassion. mercy implies compassion that forbears punishing even when justice demands it <threw himself on the mercy of the court>. charity stresses benevolence and goodwill shown in broad understanding and tolerance of others <show a little charity for the less fortunate>. clemency implies a mild or merciful disposition in one having the power or duty of punishing <the judge refused to show clemency>. grace implies a benign attitude and a willingness to grant favors or make concessions <by the grace of God>. leniency implies lack of severity in punishing <criticized the courts for excessive leniency>.
> 
> https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/charity


Are the above examples of love in action? Many of those synonyms are things couples are missing in their love life and marriage. Books are written to show us how to love our spouses. I think real love is a combination of looking for and finding those good things in our spouse we can admire and find joy in. I think love is not complete until we do loving things for those we care about, just as in the link provided by SA. Lose one and the other is difficult to maintain. It's nearly impossible to have charity for those who we don't find some good in. It is not impossible, just nearly. 

However, we can give without feeling much for whom we give. That is the typical definition we understand. It seems almost meaningless for the giver, yet it is much appreciated by the receiver. I don't think it is a worthless gesture. It is not the type of charity within a marriage, until we find ourselves in a position of not feeling love for them, or losing our ability to see the good in them that makes us proud.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

Apart from my child, my love _is_ conditional. 

The love that I have for my son is based on a biological imperative which is so _deeply ingrained_ that I cannot conceive of anything that is likely to ever change it...

On the other hand, romantic love tends to be dependent on certain conditions being met within the relationship, for example: fidelity, respect, a pleasant demeanor and a healthy amount of both emotional and physical intimcy. IMO, if these conditions undergo dramatic changes during the course of a relationship, it's quite likely that our feelings will eventually change, too.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> Apart from my child, my love _is_ conditional.
> 
> The love that I have for my son is based on a biological imperative which is so _deeply ingrained_ that I cannot conceive of anything that is likely to ever change it...
> 
> On the other hand, romantic love tends to be dependent on certain conditions being met within the relationship, for example: fidelity, respect, a pleasant demeanor and a healthy amount of both emotional and physical intimcy. IMO, if these conditions undergo dramatic changes during the course of a relationship, it's quite likely that our feelings will eventually change, too.


I feel the same, Cosmos. I cannot imagine anything separating me from loving my children.

I just cannot see Dug ever stopping loving me, though, either.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

How do you love a child in any meaningful way when they have chosen to be nothing more than a contact in the phone that never responds?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> How do you love a child in any meaningful way when they have chosen to be nothing more than a contact in the phone that never responds?


How could you stop loving them, ever, for any reason?

If my kids did not speak to me, I would still write to them, talk to relatives about how much I love them and want to make it right with them, go to their games if they did not protest, etc.

And if they ever did accept to talk with me, I would earnestly listen and seek to understand them.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> How do you love a child in any meaningful way when they have chosen to be nothing more than a contact in the phone that never responds?


The love is there whether one gets the chance to demonstrate it to the child or not... 

IMO, _unless there are drugs, alcohol or abuse involved_ (in which case professional help should be sought), we should never give up on our estranged children. Even if it means confining our contact to birthday / holiday cards and the occasional email, we should never give up on them.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

notmyrealname4 said:


> I think that about these type of self-sacrificing, almost saintly type of people too, SA.
> 
> Maybe it's a spiritual gift? I will gladly concede that, if those people are sincere in that devotion; that they are more advanced than me. Hats off to them.
> 
> Perhaps demonstration of love occurs on a spectrum. For my mother and sisters, *the best I can do is not ill-wish them; and say prayers for their well being and happiness. I can't honestly do anything more. * I'm still in pain, and I couldn't trust any of them as far as I could throw them.


 this is really what I left out in my post when I spoke all that...it's not that I wish badly on any of these people ...*not at all*.. I wish my Aunt the best in life - Honesty and from the heart.. but she has caused too much unnecessary drama -I had to change my phone # to get away from her yrs ago, it got to the point of stalking...I almost got dragged into court for trying to help her - when her & husband was getting a divorce, Messy child custody.. My husband warned me !! I was trying to be a good person, helpful.. and it bit me in the a** ...and honestly.. she brought so much sh** onto herself in that situation.. I was feeling bad for him !!... I had to wash my hands of it.. 



> So, I'm at a "1" on the demonstration-of-love-and-forgiveness spectrum, as far as they are concerned. Oh well, at least I'm not sitting and stewing and hoping that terrible things happen to them. I guess I believe in so-called "magical thinking", to an extent. Thoughts and prayers have an energy to them. Something emanates from you as a result of what you think about.


 YES - exactly. I am at a "1" too.. I just don't feel comfortable saying I love my Aunt knowing I really have NO desire whatsoever to see her or get together with her...but that doesn't mean I wish her ill .... I'd love to hear she is happy, thriving.. found a new man.. I'd be thrilled.. there is no anger, no grudges..

I've never had brothers or sisters...so really...I don't fully understand that "sibling bond" others have grown up with, all they've shared together...I've always been closer to friends over my own family......till we had our own family... I come from a dysfunctional broken situation...I can tell it's hindered me in some ways.. I sometimes envy the closeness I see some family members have.. as it's just not been my experience.. I've certainly tried to BE this as a Mother .. to give to our own children....I so want them to have a much healthier upbringing over myself... 



> I realize more advanced types would be actively making contact and sending Facebook messages, so on and so forth. How they can overlook outright abuse and betrayals that have never been apologized for??? I don't know. All I know is, I don't have that ability and I'm not going to pretend that I do.


 I hear you... Don't you think many have probably apologized in some way.. but the problem is.. they still keep screwing up... then again...then make light of it... it gets really old... many feel "used" with little to nothing coming back... 



> Besides, isn't love supposed to be precious and significant. If I give love and forgiveness to *everyone*, no matter *what* they do to me; then my love isn't valuable; my love is come by pretty cheaply.


 Yes I think so.. when I think of Love.. it's to speak highly of someone.. an endearing feeling...there is great affection, care...we'd miss them terribly.. 

Silly example: I've always loved our Pediatrician, he's warm, friendly, engaging...he's ran out to his car to get tennis balls to give one of our sons -when he learned he was in Tennis- during an appointment no less....just a very personable guy....he's going to retire soon... I wrote him a Christmas card earlier, included a pic of all of us...telling him HE [email protected]# ...we'll miss him !!.. I want him to know how much our family appreciated him all these years...



> *Definition of LOVE:*
> 
> .... strong affection for another arising out of kinship or personal ties <maternal love for a child>
> .... attraction based on sexual desire : affection and tenderness felt by lovers
> ...



More food for thought .... 




> *15 Different Kinds of Love*:
> 
> *Infatuation*- loving feelings towards a love object that are largely based upon fantasy and idealization (instead of experience). Often when partners get to know each other, infatuation diminishes.
> 
> ...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

jld said:


> How could you stop loving them, ever, for any reason?
> 
> If my kids did not speak to me, I would still write to them, talk to relatives about how much I love them and want to make it right with them, go to their games if they did not protest, etc.
> 
> And if they ever did accept to talk with me, I would earnestly listen and seek to understand them.


This part I can understand.. but what if a child grows up to be a Serial killer.. a Jeffrey Dahmer, a Ted Bundy... a Rapist.. then what?? I can't imagine anything so conflicting.. I feel great sorrow for any parent, if they were decent people that has to walk through something like that.. I think my love would turn to ANGER , great shame....I don't know.. some very difficult situations out there...


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> This part I can understand.. but what if a child grows up to be a Serial killer.. a Jeffrey Dahmer, a Ted Bundy... a Rapist.. then what?? I can't imagine anything so conflicting.. I feel great sorrow for any parent, if they were decent people that has to walk through something like that.. I think my love would turn to ANGER , great shame....I don't know.. some very difficult situations out there...


I would be horrified at the crime, for sure. But I could not stop loving them.

You could not, either, SA. I am sure of that.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

SimplyAmorous said:


> My mother never treated me badly.. she was messed up (nervous breakdown -which led to many bad things).. I am the one thing in her life she got right and is proud of...I've never not felt loved by my Mother...
> 
> *It was my Step mother who treated me badly.. I hated her as a teen.. *but that relationship turned around.. and we've been good for 20 + years...(even she told me if anyone had a right to bi*ch it was me).... I am very very thankful for her today for being such a wonderful devoted wife to my father -more than anything else.. I love my father probably because I am a lot like him...but yet we are not close... (I only see them about 5 times a year)
> 
> My mother.. .. caring about her, trying to help her.. I wasted many years & tears believing it may make a difference....I wanted HER to find happiness...this would make me unspeakably happy....I do not hold any ill will against her in regards to me...my life is good... it's not how you have described your feelings with your sister .... we do laugh & enjoy ourselves when we get together, we have some things in common anyway. we can laugh about the differences... Because I do love her.. it's more painful... sorrowful somehow...it's a difficult subject for me..


Thought of the bolded when I read this:

Dear Sugars: Reconnecting With An Abusive Stepmother : NPR

Made me terribly sad to see how this woman treated her husband's child. So sorry your father's wife was so mean to you, too, SA.


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## NextTimeAround (Dec 15, 2011)

jld said:


> How could you stop loving them, ever, for any reason?
> 
> If my kids did not speak to me, I would still write to them, talk to relatives about how much I love them and want to make it right with them, go to their games if they did not protest, etc.
> 
> And if they ever did accept to talk with me, I would earnestly listen and seek to understand them.


If you believe that unconditional love endures between parent and child well into that child's adulthood, how do you explain situations like what I have with my mother.

For decades now, she has steadily been extinguishing goodwill between us by saying and doing things that 1) are unnecessary and 2) I have asked many time, clearly and directly to stop doing.

She has continued. Maybe she will do it again but now that I pre empt her, I suppose she does not get as much fun out of doing what she does.

For example, she has what I call now the "greatest hits" that she wedges -- or wedged into conversations. I'm in my 50 s now, there is no way I am going to be come a schoolteacher and yet, she will add that to the conversation. She will ask me about "the other black girl" in my high school class even though I have told her many times that we are not friends and I don't want to talk about her. And so on, there are other examples......... Imagine thinking that you had a decent conversation with your mother and just as you're closing the phone call she'll add, "you know you really should look into teaching.........." "And have you heard from so and so.........."

So a couple of months my sister e-mailed me and asked me to call our mother. I could see that she had been trying to call me....... Mind you, this is from the same woman who had, in the 90s, neglected to call me during holidays even though she would offer to; we would plan; I would quote the best time to call in her local time and give her the number......." She once said she didn't call because she had too many phone numbers for me. Well, that was the pre-digital age. Now in the digital age that I've acquired a couple of cellphone numbers, VOIP, Skype as well as the household landline......... Ergo, I have so many more phone numbers than I did in the 90s, and yet she can't call me enough these days.......

Is there any wonder that the well has run dry between me and my mother? So no, unconditional love does not live here.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

NextTimeAround said:


> Is there any wonder that the well has run dry between me and my mother? So no, unconditional love does not live here.


A parent having uncondiitonal love for a child is different to the love a child will have for its parent. In fact, I believe that it's reasonable for an adult child's love for its parents to be _conditional_ on the them having been fit and proper parents. I'm thinking specifically of instances where alcohol, drugs, neglect or abuse (emotional and / or physical) have been involved.

IMO, there are times when, sadly, the healthiest thing an adult child _can _do is estrange itself from its parents - and sometimes, even, its entire family of origin.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

Cosmos said:


> A parent having uncondiitonal love for a child is different to the love a child will have for its parent. In fact, I believe that it's reasonable for an adult child's love for its parents to be _conditional_ on the them having been fit and proper parents. I'm thinking specifically of instances where alcohol, drugs, neglect or abuse (emotional and / or physical) have been involved.
> 
> IMO, there are times when, sadly, the healthiest thing an adult child _can _do is estrange itself from its parents - and sometimes, even, its entire family of origin.


I agree, Cosmos. I think parents earn the relationship they have with their children.

Next Time Around, sadly, not all parents love (or are even perhaps capable of loving) their children unconditionally.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> How could you stop loving them, ever, for any reason?
> 
> If my kids did not speak to me, I would still write to them, talk to relatives about how much I love them and want to make it right with them, go to their games if they did not protest, etc.
> 
> And if they ever did accept to talk with me, I would earnestly listen and seek to understand them.


See, that's the trick, isn't it?

It's fine and easy to use the word "love" in this context, but what meaning does it really have? I have gone to her concerts, her graduation, I do write, I do text, I do call, but am met with silence. My youngest showed me a picture of he and some friends the other day. I asked about the people in the picture, and one of them was my daughter...first time I had seen her face in four years, and I didn't even recognize her...the face of a stranger.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> See, that's the trick, isn't it?
> 
> It's fine and easy to use the word "love" in this context, but what meaning does it really have? I have gone to her concerts, her graduation, I do write, I do text, I do call, but am met with silence. My youngest showed me a picture of he and some friends the other day. I asked about the people in the picture, and one of them was my daughter...first time I had seen her face in four years, and I didn't even recognize her...the face of a stranger.


Unless she has specifically asked you to stop, I would continue, Sam.

Do you see the older two at all? How often do you see the youngest?


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

jld said:


> I agree, Cosmos.* I think parents earn the relationship they have with their children.*
> 
> Next Time Around, sadly, not all parents love (or are even perhaps capable of loving) their children unconditionally.


I think you're right, JLD, but divorce also plays a _huge_ part in adult child estrangements these days.

It would be nice to think that now 50/50 custody is becoming more the norm there's less opportunity for parental alienation syndrome to arise, but I'm not sure that this is the case, unfortunately.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Unless she has specifically asked you to stop, I would continue, Sam.
> 
> Do you see the older two at all? How often do you see the youngest?


Oh, I will continue, even if it is currently an exercise in futility. I don't want to give her anything that she can hold onto as a reasonable rationalization for shutting me out...ensuring my side of the fence is clean if you will, just in case that fence ever comes down.

I only have the three kids...oldest son, middle daughter, and youngest son. My oldest son...well, it's pretty typical for a 20 year old who doesn't live with you...occasional phone call and text, but otherwise good relationship. My youngest and I are the closest...I see him as often as schedules allow, talk and text several times a week. My step daughter though, we are probably the closest of all the blended family.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Oh, I will continue, even if it is currently an exercise in futility. *I don't want to give her anything that she can hold onto as a reasonable rationalization for shutting me out..*.ensuring my side of the fence is clean if you will, just in case that fence ever comes down.
> 
> I only have the three kids...oldest son, middle daughter, and youngest son. My oldest son...well, it's pretty typical for a 20 year old who doesn't live with you...occasional phone call and text, but otherwise good relationship. My youngest and I are the closest...I see him as often as schedules allow, talk and text several times a week. My step daughter though, we are probably the closest of all the blended family.


Sam, the bolded seems concerning. I do not think it will be helpful to think of trying to justify yourself to her in any way. It comes off as defensive. 

When you two do eventually talk, you are likely going to have to just listen and try to understand. Your empathy will make a bigger impression than any evidence you can cling to that you tried to contact her.

It must be terribly painful to feel so far from someone you love so much.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Sam, the bolded seems concerning. *I do not think it will be helpful to think of trying to justify yourself to her in any way. It comes off as defensive*.
> 
> When you two do eventually talk, you are likely going to have to just listen and try to understand. Your empathy will make a bigger impression than any evidence you can cling to that you tried to contact her.
> 
> It must be terribly painful to feel so far from someone you love so much.


Nothing to do with me justifying myself to her, rather not giving her any preventable failures on my part to throw at me..."But you didn't come to my graduation", "You never remembered my birthday" that kind of stuff...not for me to make any kind of point to her.


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> Nothing to do with me justifying myself to her, rather not giving her any preventable failures on my part to throw at me..."But you didn't come to my graduation", "You never remembered my birthday" that kind of stuff...not for me to make any kind of point to her.


Sam. Reread my post. You are trying to justify yourself. It is unlikely to be the insurance you are seeking.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> Sam. Reread my post. You are trying to justify yourself. It is unlikely to be the insurance you are seeking.


I don't know that there is any insurance to be had at all really, nor am I looking for any. Justifying would be me trying to get points in my favor. I'm not doing that. I am preventing points against me, removing as many points of contention as possible that would only serve to unnecessarily muddy the waters. I don't care to be able to say "But I did this, and this, and this..." Those things speak for themselves, and stand on their own merits, and don't need to be pointed out. What I don want is for her to be able to say "But you DIDN'T do this, this, or this..." No doubt there will be enough of that from her, real or perceived, that I don't need to give her any more.

Not much different than the first question asked to new posters here having marriage issues...are you carrying your weight in the relationship?


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## jld (Dec 1, 2013)

samyeagar said:


> I don't know that there is any insurance to be had at all really, nor am I looking for any. Justifying would be me trying to get points in my favor. I'm not doing that. I am preventing points against me, removing as many points of contention as possible that would only serve to unnecessarily muddy the waters. I don't care to be able to say "But I did this, and this, and this..." Those things speak for themselves, and stand on their own merits, and don't need to be pointed out. What I don want is for her to be able to say "But you DIDN'T do this, this, or this..." No doubt there will be enough of that from her, real or perceived, that I don't need to give her any more.
> 
> Not much different than the first question asked to new posters here having marriage issues...are you carrying your weight in the relationship?


You are still counting, Sam. That is still playing the justification game.

Empathy is going to be way more powerful, more heart-touching, than justification could ever be.


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

SimplyAmorous said:


> I completely understand how some relatives, if too dysfunctional, bat crazy dragging in drama...what if they have stolen from you, tried to seduce a spouse , brought shady people to your house, could be hundreds of scenarios to no longer want someone in our lives... we need to protect ourselves and our families.. YES!
> 
> But on their end...you say you love them...How would they know this... *do they feel your love - in any tangible way? * Do you at least send them a Christmas card to say.. "Hey I was thinking of you?"...


My sibs are straight up toxic. I don't want any part of their personal drama (abuse and affairs on a good day) or their schemes and quasi-legal (at best) activities. I do call a few times a year and make sure they're still alive. I see them and my nieces and nephews about 1 or 2 times a year. I show up for surgeries and funerals and I give advice when they ask, but that's about it. Anything more is just not a good idea. I get sucked in and before I know it, I'm broke, been to the police station recently, my neighbors are pissed, at least one family member isn't speaking to me, my house is trashed, some of my stuff is broken or missing, and it just goes downhill from there.


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> You are still counting, Sam. That is still playing the justification game.
> 
> Empathy is going to be way more powerful, more heart-touching, than justification could ever be.


From a strict standpoint, yes I am counting, but that is what every situation where one is consciously doing the right thing is...being faced with a choice, and purposefully doing the right thing. That does not have to exist in place of, in an either/or way with empathy. The can, and often do coexist.


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## Cosmos (May 4, 2012)

samyeagar said:


> Oh, I will continue, even if it is currently an exercise in futility. I don't want to give her anything that she can hold onto as a reasonable rationalization for shutting me out...ensuring my side of the fence is clean if you will, just in case that fence ever comes down.
> 
> I only have the three kids...oldest son, middle daughter, and youngest son. My oldest son...well, it's pretty typical for a 20 year old who doesn't live with you...occasional phone call and text, but otherwise good relationship. My youngest and I are the closest...I see him as often as schedules allow, talk and text several times a week. My step daughter though, we are probably the closest of all the blended family.


It mightn't seem this way now, Sam, but persevering the way you are doing is sending a very positive message to your estranged daughter that will be earning you her grudging respect (not that she'll admit it just yet). 

Despite her hurtful treatment of you, you're taking the high road and behaving like a mature parent. Some estranged parents battle with this, and it hinders reconciliation.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

MJJEAN said:


> My sibs are straight up toxic. I don't want any part of their personal drama (abuse and affairs on a good day) or their schemes and quasi-legal (at best) activities. I do call a few times a year and make sure they're still alive. I see them and my nieces and nephews about 1 or 2 times a year. I show up for surgeries and funerals and I give advice when they ask, but that's about it. Anything more is just not a good idea. I get sucked in and before I know it, I'm broke, been to the police station recently, my neighbors are pissed, at least one family member isn't speaking to me, my house is trashed, some of my stuff is broken or missing, and it just goes downhill from there.


If I had to deal with what you just described here (Stealing, breaking things, police getting involved) .. I wouldn't call or send any cards..probably not show up for any surgeries either....at that point one would look pretty bad just showing up for a funeral... I'd probably even think of moving out of the state to get away from relatives like this..if they kept trying to come around... 

I about ripped one of my friends heads off yrs ago after she brought some guy over our house unannounced -after she told me he had a criminal record (drugs, stealing.. I don't remember what it was).... there isn't all that many things I will get angry over.. but that's one of them...


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Cosmos said:


> It mightn't seem this way now, Sam, but persevering the way you are doing is sending a very positive message to your estranged daughter that will be earning you her grudging respect (not that she'll admit it just yet).
> 
> Despite her hurtful treatment of you, you're taking the high road and behaving like a mature parent. Some estranged parents battle with this, and it hinders reconciliation.


So true.... @samyeagar ...

It may take something really awful happening for her to reach out to you.. . but your consistently showing in small ways through the years is very very important... to leave the door OPEN... 

I have watched one of my closest friends lose her middle son in a divorce - when he went to live with his DAD.... slowly under his wing...the brainwashing began..that she was a horrible awful mother (after he slept with another woman in their bed -of course. I bet he left that out of the story)...

Ya know the kid wanted to please his Dad.. so slowly...Mom got cut out.. but she'd send cards, every Birthday, Holiday... she'd leave presents.. and hear nothing (for years even)... I felt so bad for her...she felt tremendous rejection and a powerlessness to connect again..

Then she was in a bad car accident a few years back.... she almost lost her leg, was in a nursing home for 6 months -getting rehabilitation...... this traumatic event brought him to her side ... (if there was ANY GOOD that came from this- it was THIS!)...

Since then he has had a baby and their relationship is being slowly built up again, with Mom back in his life, GRandma there...... it will take time.. she is respectful to allow him his own pace....will He ever be open to the thought that his Father had his own selfish reasons to speak so awful of his mother... I don't know.. It may be too much for them to go there..just not mature enough to see the ugly of one they want so much to respect & trust. (if this has anything to do with your ex influencing your estranged daughter that is)


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## samyeagar (May 14, 2012)

jld said:


> You are still counting, Sam. That is still playing the justification game.
> 
> Empathy is going to be way more powerful, more heart-touching, than justification could ever be.





SimplyAmorous said:


> So true.... @samyeagar ...
> 
> It may take something really awful happening for her to reach out to you.. . but your consistently showing in small ways through the years is very very important... to leave the door OPEN...
> 
> ...


What possible influence could an NPD mother exert on the daughter that lives with her


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## MJJEAN (Jun 26, 2015)

@SimplyAmorous

Put it this way, I have a VOIP landline as part of my cable and internet package. My siblings have that number. They do not have my cell number, DH's cell number, or my kids numbers.


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