# Being "Part of the Club"



## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Lots of common themes in these threads lately.

I'll bet many of you have noticed that when you are interacting with a disordered spouse, what you are doing is under a microscope and subject to strict scrutiny. And, when a transgression is detected/unearthed (literally)/discovered, there is no forgiveness.

The first reaction of a codependent partner is to explain. When the explanation is rejected, you protest and appeal. When that does no good, you get angry.

Oftentimes, you will point out family members, in-laws, etc. who have done something similar that was "no problem". The issue is brushed aside, air-brushed away, or people pretend like nothing happened.

Be aware, you will NEVER get satisfaction following this sort of behavior.

Just understand that the disordered are in their own club.

And, forgiveness is just a word away for them.

This is why boundaries are so unbelieveably important. You aren't going to get satisfaction chasing.... not today. Not ever.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

The natural reaction to being chased is to run further.

Explanations for ill behaviour = pleading/begging/negotiating/manipulating = chasing.

Disordered spouses are irrational. There's no rationalising the irrational.

There's no rationalising irrational behaviour.

At least, that's my take on it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

WantWifeBack said:


> The natural reaction to being chased is to run further.
> 
> Explanations for ill behaviour = pleading/begging/negotiating/manipulating = chasing.
> 
> ...


When you break that code, the ONLY rational thing to do is put down your boundary.

What are you ok with?

What are you not ok with?

And, then hold still. Let them respond.

If they don't respond the way you want, don't double down and try to manipulate the situation.

Learn to be still.


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## skype (Sep 25, 2013)

It's like arguing with a teenager. They love to see you lose your cool while trying to explain what the real world is like to them. Don't take the bait.

My other thought is it is like mud-wrestling with a pig. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Conrad said:


> When you break that code, the ONLY rational thing to do is put down your boundary.
> 
> What are you ok with?
> 
> ...


I think I'm beginning to understand what you mean by "be still".


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

An argument would ensue and at the end... I would ask: What was the first issue at hand?

How did we go from A all the way to Z? With nothing left resolved.

But... I was just as responsible for it as she was.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

*Re: Re: Being "Part of the Club"*



Conrad said:


> Lots of common themes in these threads lately.
> 
> I'll bet many of you have noticed that when you are interacting with a disordered spouse, what you are doing is under a microscope and subject to strict scrutiny. And, when a transgression is detected/unearthed (literally)/discovered, there is no forgiveness.
> 
> ...


Those poor codependents.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ceegee said:


> Those poor codependents.


They end up in Crazy Town also.


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## calvin (Jan 7, 2012)

It was not easy to learn to be still,was not easy to implement being still.
Being still got results for me,I respected myself more.So did my wife.
I wish I'd known that from the get go.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Conrad said:


> They end up in Crazy Town also.


They helped build it. Paved the roads, etc.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ThreeStrikes said:


> They helped build it. Paved the roads, etc.


Once you realize that, it's great therapy to laugh it off.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

WantWifeBack said:


> I think I'm beginning to understand what you mean by "be still".


http://talkaboutmarriage.com/going-through-divorce-separation/68411-submitting-truth.html


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Disordereds will process these occurrences one of two ways.

They'll argue with you, give irrelevant explanations, ignore facts and be mad about it forever.

or

They will not argue with you, ignore facts and be mad about it forever.

It's the latter that causes the most damage. 

No matter how trivial the issue was - even if you turned out to be right and it was in their best interest - they'll resent you forever.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Ceegee said:


> Disordereds will process these occurrences one of two ways.
> 
> They'll argue with you, give irrelevant explanations, ignore facts and be mad about it forever.
> 
> ...


Having/Needing to explain myself will be my toughest challenge. 

I am going to do what Kevin Garnett did... I'll wear a rubber band on my wrist. Every time I catch myself explaining - I am going to pull it and snap it.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> Having to explain myself will be my toughest challenge.
> 
> I am going to do what Kevin Garnett did... I'll wear a rubber band on my wrist. Every time I catch myself explaining - I am going to pull it and snap it.


It's a hard habit to break RG.

Once you break the habit though, it's very liberating.

You'll wonder what you're going to do with all of the extra time in your day.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

The "original" club I encountered was in my family of origin.

I'm the middle kid. Older and younger sisters.

I've had a really chilly relationship with my older sister throughout much of my life. And, my father didn't do anything to help us once my mom died (when I was 18). He never forced us to reconcile... always saying things would "blow over". Sure they do.

My younger sister acted as the "peacemaker". Of course, you realize that means she was a secret agent.

My brother-in-law filled me in on their "conversations" and point-of-view while I was separated from my first wife.

Damn, I felt betrayed. And, I did just the wrong thing - getting hot, volatile, and passionate. FINALLY... I had the smoking gun.

My vindication was at hand, right?

LOL


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## jeffthechef (Sep 10, 2013)

Ceegee said:


> It's a hard habit to break RG.
> 
> Once you break the habit though, it's very liberating.
> 
> You'll wonder what you're going to do with all of the extra time in your day.


I am very much done with explaining. 

The Warrior acts, the Fool reacts.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jeffthechef said:


> I am very much done with explaining.
> 
> The Warrior acts, the Fool reacts.


An update on the exchange with my sister.

I managed to stay @50k and she actually admitted she ADVISED her daughter not to send me a thank you note in the past.

Good habit to learn, eh?

I wonder how I got to be codependent?


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## hitbyabrick (Nov 14, 2013)

Conrad, what you're saying is spot on. I don't know at what point I became so horribly codependent, but I did.

I've tried to explain away or rationalize my problems. Many times I just tried to ignore them. Eventually I'd get angry, and often times turn it back on myself, trying to take all the fault.

Often forgiveness wasn't even a word away, I just would forgive because I thought I was supposed to, or had to, even if nothing was spoken. 

I had almost no boundaries. Thought I could take on almost any burden. All in a desperate attempt to not rock the boat in my relationship. To not risk losing her.

None of what I did brought me any satisfaction, or real happiness. It made things worse, kept me stuck, and I repeatedly sacrificed my own happiness.

I think I'm slowly learning just how bad codependency is.


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## deejov (Sep 24, 2011)

Conrad,

*I'll bet many of you have noticed that when you are interacting with a disordered spouse, what you are doing is under a microscope and subject to strict scrutiny. And, when a transgression is detected/unearthed (literally)/discovered, there is no forgiveness.*

Just wanted to share that I haven't been on much at all, and this just kinda smacked me in the face this morning. Yup, I can relate to this. 

Here's my personal experience with it. Sharing makes it seem more .... in the light of day.

My stxh has, in the past, disappeared for two days or longer wont' answer his phone, wouldn't tell me where he was, just "leave me alone for awhile" so he could get drunk. I called it inapprorpriate behavior for a married man. He blew me off.

In November, I went to a rock concert with a male friend. Didn't hide it from him. 

We've been talking about divorce for a LONG time. He just hasn't done much about following up his words with actions.

I've heard a drunken story twice now in the past two weeks... all relates to "what I did" was the lowest, most VILE thing that any friend or person has EVER done to him, and it's most certainly not ever forgiveable.

Most of me should have laughed in his face. But darn it, it HURT to hear all that stuff. 

And I did say "well, I made a mistake". Too bad. You are going to pay the consequences, and I am going to divorce you and we are done".

Gee, that's what I wanted anyways. 

But in the end, I think I (was) more upset that he certainly feels he as all the power right now. I'm over that now. 

NOW, I can laugh about it. At the time, it stung.
Rant done.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

hitbyabrick said:


> Conrad, what you're saying is spot on. I don't know at what point I became so horribly codependent, but I did.
> 
> I've tried to explain away or rationalize my problems. Many times I just tried to ignore them. Eventually I'd get angry, and often times turn it back on myself, trying to take all the fault.
> 
> ...


Brick,

Have you read ReGroup's thread?


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## hitbyabrick (Nov 14, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Brick,
> 
> Have you read ReGroup's thread?


I haven't yet. Sounds like I should.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

hitbyabrick said:


> I haven't yet. Sounds like I should.


His and Zillard's are "cradle to grave" studies on how best to communicate with broken women and overcoming codependence.


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## jeffthechef (Sep 10, 2013)

Pack a lunch. I'm only on page 180 of Regroups tale. A must read.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

jeffthechef said:


> Pack a lunch. I'm only on page 180 of Regroups tale. A must read.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

hitbyabrick said:


> Conrad, what you're saying is spot on. I don't know at what point I became so horribly codependent, but I did.
> 
> I've tried to explain away or rationalize my problems. Many times I just tried to ignore them. Eventually I'd get angry, and often times turn it back on myself, trying to take all the fault.
> 
> ...


I could have written this a few months back.

Identify it and then weed it out. 

I admitted it to myself in February - it's been a battle ever since.

Like I told Chip today, I am attracted to dysfunction. 

If I don't sort it out, I'll likely marry the same type of person in the future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

jeffthechef said:


> Pack a lunch. I'm only on page 180 of Regroups tale. A must read.


Do yourself a favor.

When you find yourself in the 250 page range, stop reading and get yourself a beer and some popcorn. 

Then continue.

*Don't spoil it by looking ahead....*


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

hitbyabrick should read Mav's brick theory.



hitbyabrick said:


> Conrad, what you're saying is spot on. I don't know at what point I became so horribly codependent, but I did.
> 
> I've tried to explain away or rationalize my problems. Many times I just tried to ignore them. Eventually I'd get angry, and often times turn it back on myself, trying to take all the fault.
> 
> ...






Mavash. said:


> For a long time I considered myself a magnet for dysfunctional people. And then I got it.
> 
> Those things I once considered subtle are now glaringly obvious.
> 
> ...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ceegee said:


> hitbyabrick should read Mav's brick theory.


I would add to that by saying you should "listen" to your body. It will tell you when things are off. You'll be fatigued, cranky, irritable, and/or otherwise miserable.

That is - quite often - a direct trailhead to the boundary issue that's bothering you.

It HURTS when our boundaries get crossed.

We can try to act like it doesn't. If we don't figure a way to give it voice - and resolve it - we simmer like boiling oil. And, when we reach our "limit", we blameshift and give ourselves permission to behave like jackasses - ripping into those we love.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I would add to that by saying you should "listen" to your body. It will tell you when things are off. You'll be fatigued, cranky, irritable, and/or otherwise miserable.
> 
> That is - quite often - a direct trailhead to the boundary issue that's bothering you.
> 
> ...


I am a jackass and I approve this message.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I would add to that by saying you should "listen" to your body. It will tell you when things are off. You'll be fatigued, cranky, irritable, and/or otherwise miserable.QUOTE]
> I used to have severe lower back pains.
> 
> It has mysteriously disappeared.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Now, back to the original part of this thread.

It provided a huge lightbulb moment for me. I stood up for myself with my sister. And, for my efforts, I got a page and a half tirade back over all my wrongs.

Victim chair anyone?

I STARTED to type the typical response, realized I wasn't @50k and decided to come back to it later.

Eventually - what I sent was this. "I was hurt when you didn't acknowledge my birthday greeting. I was hurt Michelle didn't acknowledge our (Janie's and my) wedding gift. And, I was hurt to hear of our family's illnesses second hand. I'm just sad we haven't done better"

What I got in response shocked even me.

It turns out my sister had given her daughter PERMISSION to omit any sort of thanks for a gift I sent her in college, because she - my sister - disapproved of my divorce.

Her daughter learned the lesson pretty well.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Now, back to the original part of this thread.
> 
> It provided a huge lightbulb moment for me. I stood up for myself with my sister. And, for my efforts, I got a page and a half tirade back over all my wrongs.
> 
> ...


I don't even know how to respond to this. 

It sucks. 

The stuff we teach our kids.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Now, back to the original part of this thread.
> 
> It provided a huge lightbulb moment for me. I stood up for myself with my sister. And, for my efforts, I got a page and a half tirade back over all my wrongs.
> 
> ...


What did she say when she returned the gift to you and Janie?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ceegee said:


> What did she say when she returned the gift to you and Janie?


She didn't return it.

It was a Nook Reader.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

*Re: Re: Being "Part of the Club"*



Conrad said:


> She didn't return it.
> 
> It was a Nook Reader.


So no thank you was given for "principles sake" but it's ok to keep it?

Of course she didn't return it. 

Honestly Conrad, this is your nieces issue not yours.


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Now we know why Mav became hermit-ish.

There are so many effed up, dysfunctional people out there that it simply becomes tiresome interacting with them.

It gets to the point where you want to only be around other "awake" folks. Or enjoying your own solitude.

Too bad she left.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ceegee said:


> So no thank you was given for "principles sake" but it's ok to keep it?
> 
> Of course she didn't return it.
> 
> Honestly Conrad, this is your nieces issue not yours.


Brother Gee,

Let me fill you in on where this took me.

I realized that the "template" I learned for the knock-down vicious fights with Janie were those with my sister. She's the first person in my life to angle for the victim chair. And, she's smart and stubborn in getting her way.

My father would fold like a cheap camera. So, I was on my own to deal with her.

This created one of those defensive-oriented immature parts of my personality that you likely see displayed in the politics forum from time to time.

And, THIS is the part of my personality that locked horns with Janie when her childhood issues begat the mother of all power struggles.

I saw it happening and put a stop to it. I felt the urge to engage and crush the enemy, but realized not one good thing would come from it. So, I let it go. I set my boundary and stopped.

The next 36-48 hours weren't easy. I started thinking about all the wasted time in my life right-fighting like a codependent idiot. And, I thought of all the people I'd pushed away in that fashion.

I was pretty down.

But, I SAW it.

Remember what DeMello says... waking up is painful. But, I'd much rather be awake than asleep.

This is the stuff Janie and I were discussing when you called.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Now we know why Mav became hermit-ish.
> 
> There are so many effed up, dysfunctional people out there that it simply becomes tiresome interacting with them.
> 
> ...


Ever wish you hadn't taken the red pill?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ThreeStrikes said:


> Now we know why Mav became hermit-ish.
> 
> There are so many effed up, dysfunctional people out there that it simply becomes tiresome interacting with them.
> 
> ...


Why do you think this is such a popular sub-forum?


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

Conrad said:


> *I felt the urge to engage and crush the enemy, *but realized not one good thing would come from it. So, I let it go. I set my boundary and stopped.
> 
> The next 36-48 hours weren't easy. * I started thinking about all the wasted time in my life right-fighting like a codependent idiot. And, I thought of all the people I'd pushed away in that fashion.*


I've been there. Still have to fight the urge sometimes


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Why do you think this is such a popular sub-forum?


It's not for everyone.

How many do you see post here looking for "support" but leave for friendlier dwellings on TAM?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ceegee said:


> It's not for everyone.
> 
> How many do you see post here looking for "support" but leave for friendlier dwellings on TAM?


We easily have the best looking donkeys.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

I enjoy having the little break throughs. 

I'll be going about my day and something will happen... and I'll just say to myself, "ok, this is what they meant. this is why I reacted the way I did."


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> I enjoy having the little break throughs.
> 
> I'll be going about my day and something will happen... and I'll just say to myself, "ok, this is what they meant. this is why I reacted the way I did."


And I usually follow with "Jeez I'm an ass!"


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## jeffthechef (Sep 10, 2013)

Ceegee said:


> It's not for everyone.
> 
> How many do you see post here looking for "support" but leave for friendlier dwellings on TAM?



Wait, there are other places on TAM?


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

jeffthechef said:


> Wait, there are other places on TAM?


I think CG means some people come here seeking advice that they "want" to hear as opposed to what they "need" to hear.

Submitting To The Truth.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

This sub-forum is unique. 

We are all here, by and large, for the same reason. 

All of our stories are similar. 

It makes for some very heated and charged discussions. 

The underlying component is that both husband and wife make mistakes. We give advice to whichever is here. We point out where the spouse crosses boundaries and we tell the poster what they did right and what they've done wrong. 

It's the posters that don't want to listen to the truth they get turned off. They don't want advice and they don't want to listen when you point out where they are in error. 

They're validation seekers. 

They are looking for cheerleaders. 

This sub-forum can be uncomfortable for them so they go to the General forum or the Men's Clubhouse or Ladies Lounge fishing for the validation they are seeking. 

Funny thing is, if they were so sure of themselves they wouldn't be here to begin with. When you show them the other side they get defensive and shun your advice. 

Gives you a real good indication what life is like with them and where the communication breakdown occurs.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Still admiring your moniker.

I have yet to meet the human being who does not have pos tendencies.

If we aren't willing to own them, there's only so far we can go.

Anthony DeMello put it more simply.

"I'm an ass, you're an ass"

So, show me yours and I'll show you mine


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Still admiring your moniker.
> 
> I have yet to meet the human being who does not have pos tendencies.
> 
> ...


People want relief. A cure is painful.


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## jeffthechef (Sep 10, 2013)

Hello everyone. My name is jeffthechef, and I'm an ASS.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Once you internalize this, there are (only) several million real-world applications.

Let's say you're looking at acquiring a business.

Your wife is interested in having her children work at your business.

If you are codependent, of course you want to make her happy, so you grit your teeth and try to "make it work"

If you're an ass, you sit them down and have a frank discussion about what's expected.

If there is ANY blowback from that conversation, it doesn't happen because "you're not ok with it"


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

jeffthechef said:


> Hello everyone. My name is jeffthechef, and I'm an ASS.


Lol. Stick around Jeff. A new world is going to open up for you - a healthier one.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ReGroup said:


> Lol. Stick around Jeff. A new world is going to open up for you - a healthier one.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Jeff,

We got word of ReGroup's ass months ago.

Have you heard he's an ass-notch?


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Jeff,
> 
> We got word of ReGroup's ass months ago.
> 
> Have you heard he's an ass-notch?


Show stealing ass notch.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Chip,

When I held Mrs. RG accountable for showing up late yesterday... She threatened to have me sign a dissolution of my parenting rights in the near future.

When she stormed away, D5 says, "Papi, pay her no mind. Why do you listen to her?"

I can't make this up.

Later in the day, I recognized that I acted like an Ass and made her aware that I could have handled things better... She wanted no part of it.

I extended my hand to make peace with her (a handshake) and she says, "I am not touching you" ... D5 says, "He is saying he's sorry".

Then they stormed off.

I owned my pos behavior, but she refused to own hers.

It felt liberating.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## ThreeStrikes (Aug 11, 2012)

I'm still waiting for the next Mrs. Regroup to come along...


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## jeffthechef (Sep 10, 2013)

Ceegee said:


> People want relief. A cure is painful.



Call me a masochist then. I love the challenge.


Ass-notch? Think I saw them in 96' in a little club in Brooklyn

Regroup, your D5 is wise. Good job man.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

ThreeStrikes said:


> I'm still waiting for the next Mrs. Regroup to come along...


He's quaking even thinking about it.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> Chip,
> 
> When I held Mrs. RG accountable for showing up late yesterday... She threatened to have me sign a dissolution of my parenting rights in the near future.
> 
> ...


You're the cause of all the horrible things she's done. 

Things she would be ashamed of if you weren't a POS. 

To consider you are a reasonable person would cause her to question herself and look at her POS tendencies and make her own her own problems. 

QL will have none of that.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

ThreeStrikes said:


> I'm still waiting for the next Mrs. Regroup to come along...


She did have a certain charm.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ceegee said:


> You're the cause of all the horrible things she's done.
> 
> Things she would be ashamed of if you weren't a POS.
> 
> ...


Indeed, he "deserved" all of it.


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## Ceegee (Sep 9, 2012)

Conrad said:


> Indeed, he "deserved" all of it.


If we "deserve" the punishment of infidelity, why do they fight so hard to keep the punishment a secret?


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## jeffthechef (Sep 10, 2013)

Fear, of course.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ceegee said:


> If we "deserve" the punishment of infidelity, why do they fight so hard to keep the punishment a secret?


Well, they want the world to think they went to Acapulco on a sightseeing tour.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Ceegee said:


> If we "deserve" the punishment of infidelity, why do they fight so hard to keep the punishment a secret?


Those in the victim chair deserve a free pass to do whatever they wish.

It's "justified" you know.


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## "joe" (Aug 19, 2013)

jeffthechef said:


> Pack a lunch. I'm only on page 180 of Regroups tale. A must read.


on everybody's recommendation of this thread, i'm settling into it.


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