# Wife recovering from depression, now leaving me.



## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

My wife and I have been separated for 6 weeks. The plan was to have a “date” at the 6 week mark. That was yesterday. Instead, she came to the house and told me that she's decided that we can't be together anymore... not what I wanted at all. I suspected it was coming, but I died inside anyway. I was graceful about it, and kept my dignity. I told her that it's not what I want, but that I love her enough to let her go. There were many tears on both sides. She also said that she has a small dream that maybe we'll meet again in a few years and we'll both be different people, and it will work out. I told her that as tempting as that is, I can't hold on to that shred of hope and still be able to heal.

Now I'm trying to figure out where to go from here. The truth is that this whole thing just seems so tragic to me. This is not the end I predicted for our 7 years of marriage, and 12 years together. We got along great 95% of the time. We almost never fought, we have many shared interests, traveled to incredible places, made a good “team”, and seem to want similar things in life. Neither of us suffer addictions and we're both responsible. I find her beautiful and love her deeply. There were issues, but basically, I was very happy with her. 

One problem is that she suffers major depression, ptsd, had a rotten childhood, and suffered some unusual sexual abuse before I knew her. It was a few years after I married her that she was officially diagnosed with these things. She's very high functioning, but it was a struggle for her to get them under control, and while she's made great strides, I secretly think that she's not as improved as she thinks she is.

Her reasons for leaving are that she feels alone, invalidated, and emotionally neglected/borderline abused. That's a very serious accusation, and when she told me, I was utterly shocked. She also thinks I find her unattractive, and that I don't like her personality. I did my best to be a stable platform for her to work on her mental issues. I dealt with a lot of twisted thinking, suicidal breakdowns, sexual challenges from her medications on top of an already tricky, somewhat intimidating sexuality. It was tremendously difficult for her, but also difficult for me. I know I wasn't perfect. She would sometimes get greatly upset by something most would see as thoughtless, but generally innocent behavior. When this happened, and she confided in me, I would usually take the tact of trying to rationalize the thought by gently getting her to see the other person's side. I realize now, this was the wrong approach. She interpreted my response as taking any side but hers, dismissing her feelings, and as me acting superior. She now thinks I have no emotions because I failed to validate hers. I see that now, but it's too late. That's the tragedy. It's an easy change of approach, but now she no longer trusts me. She thinks I can't change, yet, in this regard, I already have.

Of course there are other issues, but this seems to be the big one for her. The one that broke her heart. The other issues seem similarly easy to change... not that they wouldn't take work, or that I could implement all the changes perfectly right away, but none of the issues seem insurmountable to me. They do to her. She wonders, if they are so easy to fix, why didn't I fix them before. I don't have a good answer for that, other than I just didn't understand how serious it was for her, and so I didn't put in the effort to figure things out.

She's already consulted a lawyer for advice on dividing assets. She originally said that she plans to file for divorce right after the holidays, but then softened that very slightly to “reevaluate after the holidays”. I know she's very upset by all this. She stopped by this evening to drop off some cat medications, and she was visibly shaking. I asked about that, and she said “that's par for the course for the last few weeks”. She's still saying “I love you”, and “I will always love you”. Either way, she feels that she can't continue to improve her mental health with me. She thinks my personality traits are what's holding her back, and she thinks I have my own issues. She hasn't told me what she thinks those are. The therapist that I've been seeing seems to think it's all relationship stress, depression fallout and a bit of social anxiety.

I said I wouldn't hold on to that shred of hope, but it's sooo alluring. I wish I knew what to do. She seems resolute in her decision. I see a lot of similarities between my case and other threads here, but I'm worried that the general advice that's commonly given here might have to be modified due to the abnormal psychology in play. Then again, maybe I'm just holding on. This is by far the most painful thing I've ever gone through, and I don't know what to do. If it makes any difference, I'm 41 and she's 37.

Thanks all!


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

evolver said:


> My wife and I have been separated for 6 weeks. The plan was to have a “date” at the 6 week mark. That was yesterday. Instead, she came to the house and told me that she's decided that we can't be together anymore... not what I wanted at all. I suspected it was coming, but I died inside anyway. I was graceful about it, and kept my dignity. I told her that it's not what I want, but that I love her enough to let her go. There were many tears on both sides. She also said that she has a small dream that maybe we'll meet again in a few years and we'll both be different people, and it will work out. I told her that as tempting as that is, I can't hold on to that shred of hope and still be able to heal.
> 
> Now I'm trying to figure out where to go from here. The truth is that this whole thing just seems so tragic to me. This is not the end I predicted for our 7 years of marriage, and 12 years together. We got along great 95% of the time. We almost never fought, we have many shared interests, traveled to incredible places, made a good “team”, and seem to want similar things in life. Neither of us suffer addictions and we're both responsible. I find her beautiful and love her deeply. There were issues, but basically, I was very happy with her.
> 
> ...


In many ways, your story is similar to mine. My STBXW suffered from depression, and had a terrible childhood.

When she left, it was initially just for some "space". After that "space" it became a separation, shortly after that, she decided she wanted to go for divorce.

She kept telling me that she loved me and missed me etc, but they're just meaningless words. I fear this may be the same in your case.

This may sound harsh, but, have you considered the possibility that she's getting her emotional needs met elsewhere?

Also, letting go of hope is the best way to begin healing, but it's also something you can't rush, it will happen when it happens.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

Evolver, 

She has a lot of issues. The issues are not yours to fix. You cannot fix them even if you wanted to. I am familiar with being married to a depressive. The advice you see on the board is common whether there is depressive illness involved or not. This isn't about you making changes for her to stick around. This isn't yours to fix alone. You cannot. You are responsible for your share of the marital breakdown. You are not responsible for her walking away. 

Watch her actions instead of her words. Her actions are that she's already consulted a divorce attorney. That's a powerful action. You need to do the same. Now. Today. Protect yourself. 

Words are meaningless. Her words of being together later in life are shiny objects meant to keep you strung along. It's easier for her to bow out if you have hope you guys are going to be buddies or future lovers. She won't stick around for you, but if you're lucky and hold out a little hope just maybe she will come back one day. 

Dude, don't buy into any of it. Do not dump your emotions on her. Move along smartly.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

helo is right. 

You can not fix her problems. You could be supportive (prior to the separation), but they're hers to own and willingly fix.

She thinks that removing you out of the picture will make HER problems go away - they won't.

Remove yourself from the equation immediately... Speak to an attorney and protect yourself.

You need to let her crash own her own. It's coming.

NO MORE FIXING.

FYI: I suspect a 3rd Party.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

ReGroup said:


> FYI: I suspect a 3rd Party.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Me too.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Helo and RG have the right of it here, I'm afraid. You can only control you. Don't let a shiny hope keep you from doing what is right for you. Her actions speak far louder than her words do.

She will need to get through this on her own. Anything you do at this point other than being calm, dispassionate, and looking out for yourself will make things worse.

I too suspect a third party. Many of the things she is telling you sound like self-rationalizations for a decision she has already made.


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

evolver said:


> She also said that she has a small dream that maybe we'll meet again in a few years and we'll both be different people, and it will work out. I told her that as tempting as that is, I can't hold on to that shred of hope and still be able to heal.


Very preceptive of you. You're right.


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## lifeistooshort (Mar 17, 2013)

Maybe the dynamic between the two of you isn't healthy? You might mean well but you're not a psychiatrist and are not qualified to help her or determine what should and shouldn't bother her and how she should deal with things. Even if you were, you're not an impartial third party and are too close to the situation; you can't give good advice when you have a dog in the fight. Let her go and move on, and forget about the crumbs she's throwing you regarding the future.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

ReGroup said:


> FYI: I suspect a 3rd Party.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Me too.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Thanks everyone. I've been lurking this forum for a few weeks, but I didn't realize how active it is. This is great! I appreciate the responses. 

Lifeistooshort: What you typed is almost exactly what she said on Sunday. I've also been telling her for years that I can't be her therapist, and don't want to be, so please don't expect that of me. I try not to be, but as anyone who lives with someone suffering depression knows, they can't just put their emotions aside until the next therapy meeting. The dynamic is bad because she's counting on me for something I have little skill in giving. When I can't give it, or give it badly, she feels rejected and dismissed, and then I emotionally short-circuit because I don't know how to handle the situation. I think to myself, I want to support you, but I don't know how. I do believe that I could (and have started to) figure out ways to handle it better. I'm learning that it's possible to validate her emotions without agreeing to her distorted perceptions. Unfortunately, enough damage has been done that she's walking away.

Wantmywifeback: Wow! I just started reading your story, and I'm only a few pages in. It does sound very similar so far. 

Regarding the suspicion of a 3rd party: This wouldn't surprise me at all. Prior to the separation, I don't think there was any opportunity for a PA, but I do think she's been fishing for one over the last few months from whoever would pay her any attention. I get the impression that she hasn't acted on it yet, but she's very attractive. She wouldn't have any trouble getting a one-night-stand if she decided to. An EA is a possibility too, but that would surprise me more. I can't think of who she would've developed one with prior to the separation. It's a possibility though.

I guess the thing that bothers me, is that many of stories in this forum seem to be like "I don't want to loose her, even though I'm realizing that she's a horrible person". I guess I feel like we're both pretty great people in general, just with a relationship dynamic/communication problem that's likely solvable if we both are willing to put the work in. It just shocks me that she's not willing to put the work in... which is probably why you're all suspecting a 3rd party. It makes a lot of sense.

I started looking for a lawyer this morning. This is so expensive!


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

evolver said:


> Wantmywifeback: Wow! I just started reading your story, and I'm only a few pages in. It does sound very similar so far.
> 
> Regarding the suspicion of a 3rd party: This wouldn't surprise me at all. Prior to the separation, I don't think there was any opportunity for a PA, but I do think she's been fishing for one over the last few months from whoever would pay her any attention. I get the impression that she hasn't acted on it yet, but she's very attractive. She wouldn't have any trouble getting a one-night-stand if she decided to. An EA is a possibility too, but that would surprise me more. I can't think of who she would've developed one with prior to the separation. It's a possibility though.
> 
> ...


It's quite a hefty thread, it'll take a while to get through!

I'd say from what I've seen and experienced, that an EA is far more likely than a PA. Someone suffering with depression craves happiness, and they'll go to almost any lengths to obtain that happiness. A PA may provide brief happiness or a sense of excitement, but generally they look for something more long-term.

Have you noticed any of the red flags of infidelity? They can include:

Less frequent conversation.
Less frequent sex.
Sex of a lower quality due to lack of passion.
Increase in social activity & spending less time together.
Staying out overnight more frequently.
Protective/secretive about communications.
Rarely leaving a mobile phone unattended.
"I love you but I'm not in love with you".
New friends/job - anything that will broaden her social life.
Blame-shifting
Changing reasons/excuses for why you can't reconcile.
Stringing you along in case things go sour with her AP.
Refusal to tell you where she's living.
Unwilling to try and work on the marriage.

There are other signs, these are just from my personal experience, my STBXW exhibited all of these behaviours. It's also worth saying that I have no concrete evidence of any infidelity, but looking at things retrospectively, it's plainly obvious in my case.

Can you see her texting records/call logs? Access emails and so on?


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Yeah, I've seen a few of those.
-blame shifting
-refusal to work on the marriage (she says she's been trying for years but I wasn't aware)
-social activity increase. 
-more sex actually, but lower quality
I'm not sure if that's enough to point to an affair, but like I said, it wouldn't surprise me.

I think I royally screwed up our latest interaction. The day she told me she intended to file for divorce in January, I told her it wasn't what I want, but that I accept her decision and that I would move on and eventually be happy again. I later asked one last time if there was any way she might still consider MC. I expected her to say no, but she surprised me by saying that she'll consider it.

2 days ago, she texted me to say that she will consider the marriage counseling over the next month, but she had to be honest and say that at this point, she doesn't think it's a good idea. Then 4 minutes later, she texts me to say that she would consider trying a "date" with me, if I was amenable. Of course, I was utterly confused. I didn't respond for a day. When I did, I basically said that I was trying to move on, and that she was dangling hope in front of me. I said I might consider it, but I needed a few days to think. Her response was to the effect of, I'm probably right and that making one last ditch effort was probably a bad idea, going back to limbo is not fun, and that we should move on.

This is where I screwed up. I re-read the message chain, and remembered the things she accused me of... "You reject my advances, you don't tell me your feelings, you don't really like me, you don't find me attractive, you're too aloof and I feel alone". Here I am rejecting her advances again. She's trying to make an effort and I'm pushing her away again one last time. I backtracked, then she said this exchange is confusing, and then I suggested putting the conversation on hold until we had time to think about it since we were both at work.

Then I think I cemented my screw up. I decided to try to explain my reaction to her her date proposal in a long email. I dumped my feelings. I confessed that gracefully accepting her decision to file for divorce was, and still is monumentally difficult for me, that every fiber of my being want me to plead with her to stay. I told her I understand how my reaction to her date proposal might make her feel rejected, but that isn't what I wanted, and that I wanted to do the date, but suggested that it be combined with marriage counseling. I told her to think about it, run it by her therapist if she wanted, and get back to me when she's ready and I would set it all up. I totally went against what I think the advice here would be. She hasn't responded yet, and here I am in limbo again until she does. I didn't sleep last night. Arrg! 

It feels like an impossible position to be put in. Either i make her feel rejected and confirm in her mind that I don't care for her, or I sacrifice my own need for information and time to process the situation. Simply questioning her motives makes her feel rejected. I'm sure there is a good way to handle something like this, but it's lost on me. I probably would've gone on the date in the end. I just wanted more info on what she was thinking. It didn't make sense to me, and I wanted time to run it by my own therapist. In looking back, I realize how commonly I found myself in similar situations throughout our marriage.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

> Yeah, I've seen a few of those.
> -blame shifting
> -refusal to work on the marriage (she says she's been trying for years but I wasn't aware)
> -social activity increase.
> ...


An increase in frequency of sex can also indicate an affair. She could be using the sex as a "cover-up" hoping you'll see it as "more sex, everything is good and she must not be getting it elsewhere".



> I think I royally screwed up our latest interaction. The day she told me she intended to file for divorce in January, I told her it wasn't what I want, but that I accept her decision and that I would move on and eventually be happy again. I later asked one last time if there was any way she might still consider MC. I expected her to say no, but she surprised me by saying that she'll consider it.
> 
> 2 days ago, she texted me to say that she will consider the marriage counseling over the next month, but she had to be honest and say that at this point, she doesn't think it's a good idea. Then 4 minutes later, she texts me to say that she would consider trying a "date" with me, if I was amenable. Of course, I was utterly confused. I didn't respond for a day. When I did, I basically said that I was trying to move on, and that she was dangling hope in front of me. I said I might consider it, but I needed a few days to think. Her response was to the effect of, I'm probably right and that making one last ditch effort was probably a bad idea, going back to limbo is not fun, and that we should move on.
> 
> This is where I screwed up. I re-read the message chain, and remembered the things she accused me of... *"You reject my advances, you don't tell me your feelings, you don't really like me, you don't find me attractive, you're too aloof and I feel alone"*. Here I am rejecting her advances again. She's trying to make an effort and I'm pushing her away again one last time. I backtracked, then she said this exchange is confusing, and then I suggested putting the conversation on hold until we had time to think about it since we were both at work.


Again, bad news here I'm afraid. The bit emboldened is just blame-shifting. You can't MAKE her feel any way, she owns her own feelings. I heard very similar things from my STBXW. Also, there is a chance she is pointing out these things that she perceives you _aren't_ doing, because somebody else is.



> Then I think I cemented my screw up. I decided to try to explain my reaction to her her date proposal in a long email. I dumped my feelings. I confessed that gracefully accepting her decision to file for divorce was, and still is monumentally difficult for me, that every fiber of my being want me to plead with her to stay. I told her I understand how my reaction to her date proposal might make her feel rejected, but that isn't what I wanted, and that I wanted to do the date, but suggested that it be combined with marriage counseling. I told her to think about it, run it by her therapist if she wanted, and get back to me when she's ready and I would set it all up. I totally went against what I think the advice here would be. She hasn't responded yet, and here I am in limbo again until she does. I didn't sleep last night. Arrg!


Begging & pleasing will drive her further away, but I'm sure you know this. Also don't explain your actions to her, any attempt to explain will be viewed as you _trying_ to manipulate her feelings. Which you and I both know you can't do. She controls her feelings and they are her own.



> It feels like an impossible position to be put in. Either i make her feel rejected and confirm in her mind that I don't care for her, or I sacrifice my own need for information and time to process the situation. Simply questioning her motives makes her feel rejected. I'm sure there is a good way to handle something like this, but it's lost on me. I probably would've gone on the date in the end. I just wanted more info on what she was thinking. It didn't make sense to me, and I wanted time to run it by my own therapist. In looking back, I realize how commonly I found myself in similar situations throughout our marriage.


Remember, you didn't make her feel rejected. Also questioning someone's motives does not allude to rejection, this is blame-shifting behaviour again. She shifts the blame and feels "alienated" by this, because given everything you've written, I don't think she wants to explain her motives. She doesn't want to explain anything for fear of slipping up and giving you a clue that may reveal an affair. I could be completely wrong about the affair, I don't know your wife, I'm merely comparing with the patterns I've seen here.

You seem to have her on a pedestal, you seem to worship this woman.

You could be dealing with a cake-eater.

Have you read No More Mr. Nice Guy? If not I'd suggest you read it. There's a link to a less than legitimate .pdf copy in my thread.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

I started reading it last night, after seeing the link in your thread, wantwifeback. Thanks! 

Blame-shifting, projection, insistence that her spliced-up version of reality is the only possible one, and that any other viewpoints are people gaslighting her, needs to be seen as perfect... I think my therapist might be right. In my very first session, she told me that my STBXW has borderline personality disorder. Her particular version of it is probably more mild, and she's higher functioning that a lot of the examples I've been reading about, but she's got all the signs. After a few sessions, I told the therapist that it may be true, but that I was there to focus on my own issues, not my wife's possible issues.

It turns out that she thinks I proposed the "date" idea to her during our breakup this past weekend. I certainly didn't. I can understand the mistake though. Near the end of the evening, while she was packing some things to take with her, I mentioned that the day didn't go how I'd hoped. I'd hoped that this first "date" after our 6-week separation would be like hitting the reset button on our relationship, and getting to know each other again, in an effort to reconcile... not so she could tell me she wants a divorce. I could tell that she only half-heard me.

Although I still can't fathom why she would want to date me, regardless of who proposed it, I can understand the miscommunication. When I told her that I didn't propose this new "date", she said "Oh, I misunderstood". No problem, except that now I find out that she's telling friends that I'm "doing it again"... trying to convince her that she's the one who made the mistake, gaslighting her, when she clearly didn't, and that I'm flip-flopping on this date idea in order to hurt her. It couldn't possibly be a simple misunderstanding.

Most books I've read on BPD say that there is no way to make a relationship work with a BPD, and to get out ASAP. I guess I've been hesitant to believe my therapist about her condition because, if it's true, then there probably really is nothing I can do. Uggh! I'm so confused now. Are the things she's been accusing me of, really my problems or her projections? Is it possible that I'm the (unintentionally) emotionally abused one? I don't want to dismiss them if they're mine to own and fix, because then they'll just bite me again next time around. I admit though, she's got me spun in circles. I wish that there was a legal and ethical way for her therapist to talk to me and tell me if it's BPD.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

You need to take a step back, give yourself a moment to look at the situation rationally. It sounds like you are trying to over analize everything. I did/do the same thing. You will drive yourself crazy because the hardest thing when someone is acting irrational or has emotional issues going on it trying to figure what the next move will be. 

My stbx made many of the same comments yours did, blaming you for everything, that you didnt show enough affection whatever. Its part of their mindset and they do it just to get you in the exact situation you are in. Every way you go is lose-lose. You cant make the correct decision in your head because they will just spin it to work for the storyline playing out in her head. 

I made many of the same mistakes you are making right now. You will lose, you will second guess each and every decision. She will play you around and around with her indecision or teases of "hope" for your relationship. You need to give yourself some time and space so you can start to think more clearly and quit being on the defensive just reacting to whatever comes into her head on any given day. 

Its incredibly hard and you will hate it, someone said it earlier but you need to let her hit bottom, crash and burn on her own. Maybe at that point you can salvage a relationship with her when the times comes you can make that decision then. 

Start to realistically look at your relationship, work on things you feel you were need to improve upon, not what she says you need to improve because that will change daily. You said she may be BPD or have other emotional issues, look at yourself, look at how much you have changed yourself to accomdate her now, do you like the changes? Have you felt more like a caretaker than an equal partner in your marriage. 

You love her, not questioning that. But especially when dealing with someone with emotional issues after a while, it starts to drain you too, wear you down. You have been trying to "fix" her problems for a while now havent you? Stop trying and give her the responsibility of repairing herself. 

They want to run the show but they dont want the responsibility thus you "try" to be responsible and it all wrong so they have the built in excuse why it failed. Time to start getting yourself out of the lose-lose scenario.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

honcho said:


> You need to take a step back, give yourself a moment to look at the situation rationally. It sounds like you are trying to over analize everything. I did/do the same thing. You will drive yourself crazy because the hardest thing when someone is acting irrational or has emotional issues going on it trying to figure what the next move will be.
> 
> My stbx made many of the same comments yours did, blaming you for everything, that you didnt show enough affection whatever. Its part of their mindset and they do it just to get you in the exact situation you are in. Every way you go is lose-lose. You cant make the correct decision in your head because they will just spin it to work for the storyline playing out in her head.
> 
> ...


:iagree:

honcho is right on the money here, I don't think I can add anything to his advice right now .


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> Yeah, I've seen a few of those.
> -blame shifting
> -refusal to work on the marriage (she says she's been trying for years but I wasn't aware)
> -social activity increase.
> ...


Read the above several times.

Realize how much you are driving yourself crazy with this.

If she wants to be with you, what you did or didn't do in a text won't make one whit of difference.

Trust me on this.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Of course you are all right... especially the bit about her spinning anything I do to work for the storyline in her head. Accepting this new reality is not easy. I'm glad this forum exists. You are helping me stay sane and I appreciate it.


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## ReGroup (Dec 6, 2012)

Let me tell me about your new reality - You get to choose it.

You won't understand the message now, but in time... You will.

YOU have put yourself in a position where she's dictating your future... How does that read and sound?
Another person who's never walked in your shoes... Is dictating YOUR life.

Does that make any sense?

Question #1 How did you get to this mind frame in the first place?

How and Why...we go from there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

You don't have to accept this new reality. You are choosing to create a new reality. One that you have a say in your life, your world doesn't revolve around her. Remember she has chosen to do what she is doing, she isn't seeking help.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

It may not seem like it right now, but you've been given an opportunity. You have the opportunity to take control of you life, and make it what you want.

Here's the thing - you've always had that opportunity, but it's only now becoming apparent.

Take ownership of your emotions, focus on you, and work to be the best you can be by yourself. Because, not to sound harsh, but that's all you have now, and in reality, that's all you've ever had. You only control you. Your thoughts, your emotions, your life.

If you remove the focus from her and work on yourself, you'll be prepared for the future, whatever it may hold.

Have you heard of ONEitis? If not, read about it, understand it and take it on board.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

WantWifeBack said:


> Have you heard of ONEitis? If not, read about it, understand it and take it on board.


ONEitis is ridculously paralyzing.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

helolover said:


> ONEitis is ridculously paralyzing.


What most don't realize is that "oneitis" is often a symptom of the disease.

A partner starts detaching and the (soon to be betrayed) partner digs in to "make it work"... stretching the delusion of a happy ending ever further.

Many of us simply hate to be wrong.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

helolover said:


> ONEitis is ridculously paralyzing.


:iagree:

It's horrible. It's great whilst you're with the focus of your ONEitis, but when they leave, it's like a nuclear bomb detonating inside your chest.

EDIT: Actually, I'm going to retract the above statement. It isn't great per se, but you are under the illusion that it is.



> What most don't realize is that "oneitis" is often a symptom of the disease.
> 
> A partner starts detaching and the (soon to be betrayed) partner digs in to "make it work"... stretching the delusion of a happy ending ever further.
> 
> Many of us simply hate to be wrong.


And, would I be correct in saying that "disease" is being a "Nice Guy" or an AFC?


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## azteca1986 (Mar 17, 2013)

WantWifeBack said:


> And, would I be correct in saying that "disease" is being a "Nice Guy" or an AFC?


It's putting someone else above you


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

azteca1986 said:


> It's putting someone else above you


Makes sense. 

That's also something Nice Guys/AFCs do though


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

WantWifeBack said:


> And, would I be correct in saying that "disease" is being a "Nice Guy" or an AFC?


Story after story.

"I was content being a great dad and husband"

Actually, the words betray you when you write this phrase.

"Content"... merely means your partner/wife isn't the "best friend" and "playmate" you had hoped she'd be. So, to cope with that disappointment (which often you don't acknowledge to yourself), you pour yourself into the kids and trying to put a smile on her face... all the while telling yourself this this is actually good


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

I'm googling ONEitis and still reading through No More Mister Nice Guy. I'm only 1/4 through NMMN but so far, it's very interesting. Still on the fence about how much it applies to me, but maybe I'm in denial. 

In the beginning of our relationship, she was the needy one. I was immensely attracted to her, but she did most of the pursuing. I think she was initially attracted to my aloofness, but I think it may have eventually been part of the downfall. I do admit that I put her on a pedestal. I was quite flattered that someone like her would persue me. I don't know. I'm self-analyzing everything now because I don't want to find myself in the same situation the next time around, whether that's with her or someone else (still so hard to say that). 

What is AFC stand for?

Wantwifeback, I'm still working through your story. EPIC! What a rollercoaster! I'm glad you posted it because I empathize with so much of it.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> I'm googling ONEitis and still reading through No More Mister Nice Guy. I'm only 1/4 through NMMN but so far, it's very interesting. Still on the fence about how much it applies to me, but maybe I'm in denial.
> 
> In the beginning of our relationship, she was the needy one. I was immensely attracted to her, but she did most of the pursuing. I think she was initially attracted to my aloofness, but I think it may have eventually been part of the downfall. I do admit that I put her on a pedestal. I was quite flattered that someone like her would persue me. I don't know. I'm self-analyzing everything now because I don't want to find myself in the same situation the next time around, whether that's with her or someone else (still so hard to say that).
> 
> ...


You felt lucky to have her, right?

What was her childhood like?


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## cdbaker (Nov 5, 2010)

Everyone here has provided much better advice than I could probably give so I'll leave it to them, but will add one small piece...

As it relates to a possible 3rd party, remember that depression can easily lead to someone getting pulled into an affair. The feelings of depression can destroy a persons self esteem, and make them question their spouses feelings for them as well. You already mentioned that your wife has been feeling alone, that maybe you aren't attracted to her, that maybe you don't really love her and this is partially why she feels undesirable, inferior, etc. After a while, a woman in that situation becomes incredibly vulnerable to even the smallest of advances by other men. Someone compliments her outfit, her hair, her anything at all, and she'll feel a rush of endorphins and positive feelings that she cant' help but latch on to him. You could say or do the same things any other guy could, but because of her preconception of how you "really" feel about her, it wouldn't mean much. Before long she is swooning over the new guy for having removed her from her state of depression for even a moment. Those wonderful feelings also serve as evidence in her mind that you must be the cause of much of her unhappiness, because this new guy is able to make her feel attractive and desirable again but you can't.

It's incredibly flawed logic, but then again logic isn't usually involved in these sorts of situations. For the record though, I'm not saying that I think your wife is involved with another man, just that the pieces all seem to be in place for that type of situation to be very possible.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

cdbaker said:


> You could say or do the same things any other guy could, but because of her preconception of how you "really" feel about her, it wouldn't mean much. Before long she is swooning over the new guy for having removed her from her state of depression for even a moment. Those wonderful feelings also serve as evidence in her mind that you must be the cause of much of her unhappiness, because this new guy is able to make her feel attractive and desirable again but you can't.


Yeah, this hits home. I think that's some really good insight. She would complain that I don't compliment her enough, but when I did, she would say "you don't count", or more commonly, ignore it. If she got a compliment by someone else, she would accept it graciously and it would make her night. This was one of our biggest points of contention. In the last 6 months, she'd been wanting to go out clubbing way more frequently, and became way more sociable. We'd go out together, but she would more-or-less ignore me once we were out.

Whether it's a romantic 3rd party, or just general adoration from pseudo-friends & strangers, this helps me understand the psychology involved, and why I felt like I was spitting into the wind when I would compliment her.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> Yeah, this hits home. I think that's some really good insight. She would complain that I don't compliment her enough, but when I did, she would say "you don't count", or more commonly, ignore it. If she got a compliment by someone else, she would accept it graciously and it would make her night. This was one of our biggest points of contention. In the last 6 months, she'd been wanting to go out clubbing way more frequently, and became way more sociable. We'd go out together, but she would more-or-less ignore me once we were out.
> 
> Whether it's a romantic 3rd party, or just general adoration from pseudo-friends & strangers, this helps me understand the psychology involved, and why I felt like I was spitting into the wind when I would compliment her.


Narcissistic people really get off on people kissing their asses.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Conrad said:


> You felt lucky to have her, right?
> 
> What was her childhood like?


I did feel lucky to have her.

According to her, her childhood was terrible. I believe it, although I also suspect that she experienced it more acutely than other kids might have. Her father was controlling, erratically tempered, and psychologically abusive. He was the kind of guy who would insult her or her mother, then laugh about it and say it was a just a joke.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> I did feel lucky to have her.
> 
> According to her, her childhood was terrible. I believe it, although I also suspect that she experienced it more acutely than other kids might have. Her father was controlling, erratically tempered, and psychologically abusive. He was the kind of guy who would insult her or her mother, then laugh about it and say it was a just a joke.


You do realize this sort of treatment (in childhood) often creates a disordered adult.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

evolver said:


> I'm googling ONEitis and still reading through No More Mister Nice Guy. I'm only 1/4 through NMMN but so far, it's very interesting. Still on the fence about how much it applies to me, but maybe I'm in denial.
> 
> In the beginning of our relationship, she was the needy one. I was immensely attracted to her, but she did most of the pursuing. I think she was initially attracted to my aloofness, but I think it may have eventually been part of the downfall. I do admit that I put her on a pedestal. I was quite flattered that someone like her would persue me. I don't know. I'm self-analyzing everything now because I don't want to find myself in the same situation the next time around, whether that's with her or someone else (still so hard to say that).
> 
> ...


AFC stands for Average Frustrated Chump. It's another term to describe a male with a Beta mentality. Note I said Beta mentality, there's no such thing as an Alpha or Beta male, it's all in the mindset. AFCs/Betas/Nice guys all subscribe to the theory of "the one" or "soulmate" - this is ONEitis.

Every man is an Alpha in my opinion. An Alpha put in our position would dust himself off, get back up and get on with his life, for himself. Us AFCs pine away for our lost "soulmate", when in reality there are billions of women out there, and it's almost a certainty that there is a better mate out there for you at any given time, regardless of your relationship status.



> I did feel lucky to have her.


Pedestal - you placed yourself below her. In doing so, you essentially said to her "I'm not worth as much as you, I have less social value, I am less attractive, and I am undeserving of you".

_You_ must remember at all times, that _you_ are the prize, you belong on your pedestal. You are of equal worth, and equal value. 

I felt lucky to have my STBXW, I thought I'd hit the jackpot. I'm an average looking guy at best, my STBXW was stunning. She used to be a great person, great fun to be with. In all honesty I worshipped her. I was head over heels, completely and utterly in love with her and I would have given anything for her happiness, and I did. I gave up myself. What I didn't realise that it was that person that I gave up that made her happy. I became a doormat, and she walked all over me, because I taught her that was acceptable.

How much of the above applies to you?



> You do realize this sort of treatment (in childhood) often creates a disordered adult.


Not only have I witnessed this first-hand with my STBXW, but my father used to do the same thing to me, he still does sometimes, but now I know better and I just give as good as I get. It probably accounts for at least some of my own psychological damage.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Some others have mentioned a 3rd party and that is likely. Its just another reason why you need to take the step back and rationally look at everything. You have been in just reacting mode to whatever she says. You may indeed not know the full story or even what you are up against. 

I too felt in the beginning of dating, she was pursuing me, I felt special. I put her on the pedestal of sorts too, many of the same things you have done. Do you get told your a wonderful, great guy alot by women? I got to where I hate even hearing that statement. The nice guy syndrome guys will understand what I mean. 

Your emotions will bounce around now. They will compete with your rational mind. Limit your contact with her as she knows exactly how to play your emotions. You will tell yourself otherwise but talking just for the sake of talking, keeping in contact isnt getting you anywhere right now. Make her start to wonder whats going on with you. 

Your relationship didnt get to this point in a day and whether it be D or R it wont get fixed or come to a resolution in a day. This will be one of the hard parts for you I think, try to find something else to think about. Try and get your mind off her and your situation for a while. Focusing on something else will do wonders for your brain, trust me on that.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Feeling down again.

I had to interact with my STBXW when she came to the house to pick up the spare bed. She was with a friend. When the friend was in the room, she avoided eye contact. As soon as the friend left, she gave me a long, pathetic stare and teared up. I'm proud of myself for being friendly, but emotionally removed. I hugged her, but thats it. I said very little. No contact since.

Afterward, I went to a great party and met some new people outside of our circle of mutual friends. I have been feeling kinda lonely, but have had success in putting her out of mind. I think I got my first glimpse of how life might be on the other side, and that it might not be terrible... maybe.

Just now though, I found out beyond any doubt, that there is, and has been no 3rd party, although she is actively looking to "date around". I'm not sure how I feel about that. As strange as it sounds, I was almost hoping there was a 3rd party. At least that would've been a mystery solved.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> Feeling down again.
> 
> I had to interact with my STBXW when she came to the house to pick up the spare bed. She was with a friend. When the friend was in the room, she avoided eye contact. As soon as the friend left, she gave me a long, pathetic stare and teared up. I'm proud of myself for being friendly, but emotionally removed. I hugged her, but thats it. I said very little. No contact since.
> 
> ...


How do you know that?


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Im not comfortable saying specifically, on the off chance she finds this thread, but I'm certain enough from what I've seen to rule it out. I also know that she's not enjoying her current situation and is looking for any excuses to get out of the house she's staying in. I can't blame her there. I feel the same quite a bit.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> Im not comfortable saying specifically, on the off chance she finds this thread, but I'm certain enough from what I've seen to rule it out. I also know that she's not enjoying her current situation and is looking for any excuses to get out of the house she's staying in. I can't blame her there. I feel the same quite a bit.


Sounds like you've spent quite a bit of time being afraid of her emotional reactions.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

evolver said:


> I'm certain enough from what I've seen to rule it out


Circumstantial evidence is not evidence.

Don't be too hasty to rule it out.

Life on the other side is what you make it, it's up to you if it's good or bad. Nobody else.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Sounds like you've spent quite a bit of time being afraid of her emotional reactions.


Absolutely. In fact, I discovered in IC that my greatest fear is that I can't give her what she needs/wants. That fear has been affecting the dynamic between us for years. 

I mentioned that she is sexually very kinky. Before we married, we discussed our limits, and both agreed that monogamy was important. Over the years, she's made comments that caused me to wonder if that had changed. My fear prevented me from asking directly. So when she told me that she wanted to take me somewhere for my birthday, but refused to tell me where, I was suspicious and kept telling her I don't like surprises. She was acting very dominantly, which was very out of character for her. In my imagination, she was taking me to a swingers party or something similar, and that I would have to say "no", I can't give you this. In the end, she was only taking me to dinner and a movie that I wanted to see. I felt terrible for letting my imagination run wild and acting suspicious. I apologized for my behavior, and later I even explained what had happened, but she took it as me not trusting her... Which was true. That's an obvious example, but my fear has been operating in more subtle ways for a long time. Had I faced my fear instead of jumping to catastrophic conclusions, and simply asked her if monogamy was still important to her, I would've had a great birthday, and been able to relax and act like a regular human being.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> Absolutely. In fact, I discovered in IC that my greatest fear is that I can't give her what she needs/wants. That fear has been affecting the dynamic between us for years.
> 
> I mentioned that she is sexually very kinky. Before we married, we discussed our limits, and both agreed that monogamy was important. Over the years, she's made comments that caused me to wonder if that had changed. My fear prevented me from asking directly. So when she told me that she wanted to take me somewhere for my birthday, but refused to tell me where, I was suspicious and kept telling her I don't like surprises. She was acting very dominantly, which was very out of character for her. In my imagination, she was taking me to a swingers party or something similar, and that I would have to say "no", I can't give you this. In the end, she was only taking me to dinner and a movie that I wanted to see. I felt terrible for letting my imagination run wild and acting suspicious. I apologized for my behavior, and later I even explained what had happened, but she took it as me not trusting her... Which was true.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Conrad: I've been baking on your quote without comment response all morning. I'm afraid I don't understand... did you quote me to emphasize my own words back to me? Is there significance in leaving out my last sentence? I'm still working on learning the abbreviations and etiquette of this forum.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> Conrad: I've been baking on your quote without comment response all morning. I'm afraid I don't understand... did you quote me to emphasize my own words back to me? Is there significance in leaving out my last sentence? I'm still working on learning the abbreviations and etiquette of this forum.


Why did you feel the need to put your neck into the guillotine?

Haven't had enough of that?

In everyday life, do you often explain things to people who aren't your superior/supervisor?


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

I guess because I'm still trying to learn from this experience... figure out what happened. If a little extra pain now keeps me from finding myself here again in the future, I'll take it. Putting her out of my mind may help me feel better faster, but what did I learn then? 

My STBXW has many issues, but she isn't insane. I've been accused of many things, most of which seem to be projections of her own issues, but some which may be objectively valid. I'd like to figure out which are which and address the ones that are my responsibility. 

As for explaining things... I guess you're referring to my writing her the long e-mail to try to clear things up regarding the date? I have to admit that this is psychology that I don't fully grok. That letter made her feel like I was trying to manipulate her, and that I was "gaslighting" her... that I said one thing, and then later claimed to say the opposite. My IC said that it doesn't matter what I say or do because she's got a script of how things will go in her head. Any actions that don't conform to that script will cause her to feel manipulated and gaslight-ed. I thought someone else on this board said something similar too, but I can't locate it. (edit: Honcho said it on the very first page!) I explain things because I appreciate it when someone else explains their own confusing behavior to me. That's the way my brain works. I guess others react differently.

I'm hearing the "back-off" and do-not-contact advice loud and clear. I'm doing that, but it's excruciatingly difficult. I keep hearing her voice in my mind, telling me that I'm neglecting her and ignoring yet again. Every interaction I have with her does seem to make things worse though... for both of us.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

You keep answering your own question, the more you try the worse it gets. Backing off, limiting contact is very hard. You want to please her, make her happy. You apparently have some trust issues with her and fears. She wont listen to explainations, she just hears excuses in her head or twists it. 

She worked you getting the spare bed out of the house. Although you thought you limited the contact she got just enough out of those sad eyes of her to know you are right where she wants you so to speak. You hugged her, you told her things are ok whether you believe it or not. Careful about her removing stuff out of the house, you will be far better off not allowing this to be done piece by piece. She will probably come by, want and item here or there. They do it in part to keep you stringing along, you cant wait to see her and maybe talk so you agree. Next time she wants something, tell her to create a list of everything she wants. Either the do it all or nothing approach. The piece by piece will tear you apart, it did for me. 

You will be much better off emotionally if she wants to move out, get it all done at once. She will complain but mostly because it will force her to make a decision instead of just slowly pulling away from you. Your intimidated by her both emotionally and sexually. Stand your ground, show her something other than what you have done. Your not neglecting her, you want to tend to her wants and needs. Right now she has to figure that out for herself


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

honcho said:


> Careful about her removing stuff out of the house, you will be far better off not allowing this to be done piece by piece. She will probably come by, want and item here or there. They do it in part to keep you stringing along, you cant wait to see her and maybe talk so you agree. Next time she wants something, tell her to create a list of everything she wants. Either the do it all or nothing approach. The piece by piece will tear you apart, it did for me.
> 
> You will be much better off emotionally if she wants to move out, get it all done at once. She will complain but mostly because it will force her to make a decision instead of just slowly pulling away from you. Your intimidated by her both emotionally and sexually. Stand your ground, show her something other than what you have done. Your not neglecting her, you want to tend to her wants and needs. Right now she has to figure that out for herself


This is the exact reason I made my STBXW take everything in one go, and whilst I was out of the house. As honcho said, she will likely be unhappy about it, my STBXW was furious when I asked her to get all of her stuff out. It takes away one of their valid reasons to contact you. It's difficult, but it's for the best.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Although I'd be damned if I let her do it while I was out of the house. WWB got lucky. Most of us know that we would likely come home to bare walls, garbage, and a suspicious stain in the middle of our bed...


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Although I'd be damned if I let her do it while I was out of the house. WWB got lucky. Most of us know that we would likely come home to bare walls, garbage, and a suspicious stain in the middle of our bed...


I told her to do it whilst I was out of the house, because it would have been to painful to watch her pack.

I did come home and find that she'd taken some things that she had no right to take without discussing things first, she took some of my books and tried to use returning them as an excuse to meet up. I told her to dispose of them.

I also told her anything she left I'd donate to charity, and she made a point of leaving her wedding dress.

Oh, and then there were the wedding photos that she carefully placed in the top of my waste paper basket, along with the sentimental gift she bought me on our wedding day.

Worst of all, she read my journal, in which I'd been writing all of my thoughts and feelings about the whole separation process. She read something in there she didn't like and got extremely angry, and said some very hurtful things.

Painful and frustrating indeed, but a small price to pay for the long-term clarity of mind.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

Still, much better to box all of her stuff up and put it elsewhere (garage/storage). Limits coming home to more pain (and suspicious stains).


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

Honorbound said:


> Still, much better to box all of her stuff up and put it elsewhere (garage/storage). Limits coming home to more pain (and suspicious stains).


Heh, I considered doing this, but then I figured, she wants out, she can pack and move her own damn stuff .


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

For some reason, the advice here reminds me of this line from the movie Jacobs Ladder:

“The only thing that burns in hell is the part of you that won't let go of your life: your memories, your attachments. They burn 'em all away. But they're not punishing you,' he said. 'They're freeing your soul. If your frightened of dying, and your holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. If you've made your peace then the devils are really angels freeing you from the earth.” 

Ok, a little over-dramatic, but still... 

damnit! Now I'm teary at work, just from typing that. meh!


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

evolver said:


> For some reason, the advice here reminds me of this line from the movie Jacobs Ladder:
> 
> “The only thing that burns in hell is the part of you that won't let go of your life: your memories, your attachments. They burn 'em all away. But they're not punishing you,' he said. 'They're freeing your soul. If your frightened of dying, and your holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. If you've made your peace then the devils are really angels freeing you from the earth.”
> 
> ...


Ahhh, the crying at work stage. I don't miss that.

It'll pass fella .


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> I explain things because I appreciate it when someone else explains their own confusing behavior to me.


Exactly how you would talk to yourself - and you would appreciate it.

There's only one problem with that.

You're a man and she isn't.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Exactly how you would talk to yourself - and you would appreciate it.
> 
> There's only one problem with that.
> 
> You're a man and she isn't.


:smthumbup:

Ironically, my wife told me several times that she doesn't identify with females. She said she thinks she should've been a man because she thinks like one. That boggled my mind. I almost laughed, but kept my cool. She is utterly "feminine" in her thinking, for good and bad. 

I did tell her that once, and WOW did she get mad! Probably not my smartest confession. 

Any recommendations that would help me better understand how they think? My IC said that NMMNG is great, but not for me. I'm picking through it anyway because it's interesting. 

Thanks again everyone. You are helping me stay sane. 

P.S. 5 days of no contact now. It's really hard. My mind keeps searching for excuses for why contact would be good, but I've kept it under control so far.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

So much of what you write is similar to what I went thru, you’re a few months behind me in your world changing. Mine used to say she thought like a guy too. 

You want recommendations to better understand what they think. Well don’t overthink everything and as incredibly hard as it will be for you, it was for me, trying to put rational thought into what she is thinking which is irrational in your view will drive you nuts. 

You will try and plan for every scenario, every what if, you will have a rational game plan in your head to counter with. It doesn’t work, they don’t listen. The moment you try and explain anything, they tune you out. They think you are trying to be superior or belittling them or whatever excuse works for the moment. If your argument is good and convincing, then they will just shut down and quit talking. 

Read other posts on this site, learn from other peoples experiences, heartache and mistakes. I wish I had found this site much earlier in my disaster because of the real life experiences so many have had. I made plenty of mistakes early on. Perhaps the biggest mistake I made in my whole process so far was believing that I could convince her to try and make it work. Till she wants to your just talking to yourself. 

I still months later find myself looking for excuses to contact her, something to open the communication lines is what I tell myself. It’s a hard urge to fight. Remember she knows how to contact you also. She left, you didn’t.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

evolver said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> Ironically, my wife told me several times that she doesn't identify with females. She said she thinks she should've been a man because she thinks like one. That boggled my mind. I almost laughed, but kept my cool. She is utterly "feminine" in her thinking, for good and bad.
> 
> ...


My STBXW said she identified with males better too.

It's funny when women say they think like a man, because never having been a man they wouldn't know. I don't _know_ how a woman thinks personally. I mean I can read studies and papers and make observations, but I don't truly _know_. Nor do the women that say things like this.

NC is hard buddy, I'm on day 18 myself, but it does get easier, especially once you realise the woman you long to talk to no longer exists. We can tell you "she's a different person, she's gone, you're talking to some demon wearing her skin" but, in truth, you won't truly believe it until you realise for yourself.

In the meantime, keep updating your thread, keep working on you, and keep us posted so we can offer advice/support.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> :smthumbup:
> 
> Ironically, my wife told me several times that she doesn't identify with females. She said she thinks she should've been a man because she thinks like one. That boggled my mind. I almost laughed, but kept my cool. She is utterly "feminine" in her thinking, for good and bad.
> 
> ...


Men explain things to each other and use left-brain didactic reasoning.

In relationships - especially - women communicate emotionally. If you crack that code, you're half way home.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

honcho said:


> So much of what you write is similar to what I went thru, you’re a few months behind me in your world changing. Mine used to say she thought like a guy too.


Most women I've encountered who tell me that often display boundary issues with men.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

I stuck my neck into the guillotine again tonight, and got cut pretty bad. I know for certain that its over though. The corse is set. It's a D for me. In the month and a half since my STBXW told me she wanted to separate, she's hooked up with 3 guys, including an acquaintance of mine. Her decision to divorce was made before the separation. She was stringing me along with hope for reconciliation.. Probably because she felt guilty. I'm almost certain now that I never stood a chance.

While I think there are some things I could've done better, I'm thinking now that most, if not all the things she accused me of were just invented to justify the decision she made, and assuage her guilt. I don't know what triggered her to make the decision... Maybe a poisonous friend. I'll probably never know. I guess now I really can start working on me, and put the relationship aside with a clear conscience. 

I feel a weird combination of sadness and loss, mixed with freedom and relief. There is still a lot of confusion, but I'm done looking for answers... At least that's how I feel now. I have to admit that I'm also feeling the fear of isolation. I let all of my close friends drift away during the marriage, and haven't been able to track them down. That was a big mistake. I don't blame my STBXW for that, although she didn't like them, and never failed to tell me. It's strange how I was perfectly content being a loner, until it was no longer a choice. Now I can't stand it. I'm not sure how I'm gonna make friends, or be a good date carrying this grief and pain around, but I need to.


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## split_open_and_melt (Dec 15, 2013)

It'll take time bro, but you'll get there. Believe in yourself, believe you are a great person and she is making a mistake. That's the beginning. Don't let her make you believe it's all your fault.

Just you wait until you connect with that first girl that gives you her attention. Everything you are feeling now will drop right off...

I'm in the same boat pretty much...the party nobody wanted to be invited to. My BD was a month and a half ago as well. We're here and what's left to do but look toward the future? There are other great women out there, ones that will love us more completely then our STBXs ever did. 

Watch your back through the progress. Hopefully it doesn't get messy.

Be glad you don't have kids involved. I am tied to my STBX for life. She wants to show the kids we have a strong friendship and love for each other. This one month after she kicked me out and is banging some other dude. Strong friendship my ass.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

She is seeing other people because she is depressed and wants the attention and wants to “feel good” She might very well blow thru quite a few guys in the comings months. One, three or 10 does it matter to you now? She running from her issues and she may do this for a long time. 

Don’t dwell or focus on her, try not to focus on what she is trying to see in the other men. This again will drive you crazy and the simplest answer is they aren’t you and it makes her feel good at the moment. That’s its. She isn’t looking long term or a better catch, just today I want to feel good, nothing more. 

Follow your path or plan, focus on NC and proceed with removing her from your life. She still wants the safety net of you, don’t give her the illusion that you are the safety net. She is making these decisions on her own and let her bottom out on her own. While her actions right now make her feel good, sooner or later they will just make her feel worse because she isn’t addressing her problems. It’s a hard thing to watch and not try and help. But a spectator you must be.

I too was a loner, I never had a big circle of friends. I know lots of people but true friends are few. You will feel lonely and it will take time to get over that feeling. You will go thru stages where you don’t want to be in the house because its too quiet etc. But you will learn to live with yourself again. It slowly happens but it does happen. Your situation is still new and you just found out this stuff over weekend and you are still kind of in shock and anger probably. You feel relieved because you think you found a reason for what is going on and you can wrap your head around a reason.


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## mr.mike (Jan 25, 2013)

Evolver, you might find my thread interesting as I'm in a similar situation to yours, although many months ahead. My wife also was depressed and felt neglected when she decided to walk away. She had been in therapy for 4 months, which I thought was helping her but really only helped her out the door with a load of blame to dump back on me. I tried no contact. She took it as more neglect. Then I tried limited contact and showing her how much I cared. She filed for divorce. It didn't seem to matter what I did. It was only lose/lose once she walked away. I don't think there was anyone else when she left, but by now after 11 months that she's been gone I'm sure she's been with others...and I really don't care. Hopefully you can get to that place soon. Therapy is a huge help.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Thanks everyone. I've been keeping myself extremely busy these last few days trying to find new social outlets. So far, so good. I still can't keep my mind focused on anything, including distraction. I'm a movie fan, but I haven't been able to make it through a whole movie yet without loosing interest 15 minutes in. I feel completely ADD. This is happening in social situations too. I'll go out, and have fun for maybe 30 minutes. After that, I start to become "not-present" and I get anxious... like I should be doing something else.

I have managed to resist communicating with STBX. I got an email from her yesterday. It's the 1st communication I've gotten from her in 1.5 weeks. It was just some household info that I asked her for a few weeks back, and she thanked me for taking care of the pets and hoped I was doing ok. I haven't responded yet, but I think I'll just say "Thank you", so that she knows her message got through, and leave it at that. I've also avoided asking anyone about her, or spying her facebook/e-mail. The temptation is there strongly, but I keep telling myself "there is nothing you could possibly learn that would make any difference now". 

Mr.Mike: Thanks for pointing me to your threads... there do seem to be a lot of similarities, and some differences too. I'm sorry that it didn't work out for you either. You didn't say a lot about your ex's depression, but the parts about her not believing that you love her sound very familiar. So do the parts about her walking out on past relationships and cutting people out of her life abruptly. I met my STBX a few weeks after she walked out on her previous fiancé.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

All you can do is try and keep busy. Went thru the same thing as you, movies don’t hold your attention long enough, been there done that. The not being present at social functions after 30 minutes or so, think that common. As time passes these times will get longer the 30 will turn into an hour etc. You may even feel guilty the first time you go say a couple of hours without thinking about her. A great deal of people on this board will tell you to hit the gym and do physical activities and it does help, making both the mind and body work at the same time does help. 

I wouldn’t even bother responding to the email. It didn’t contain any relevant divorce talk, just more idle conversation. She only sent it to keep you thinking about her. Just quit talking to her unless is business of separation, divorce talk. You will say thank you, then she will ask an innocent question you will respond, you see where it goes? 

Don’t worry about asking anyone questions as sooner or later the rumor mill will just start telling you things whether you want to hear them or not. This is part of the NC you need to start doing. If you ask friends how she is, they are going to tell her you still care etc.


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## GotLifeBack (Sep 12, 2013)

evolver said:


> Thanks everyone. I've been keeping myself extremely busy these last few days trying to find new social outlets. So far, so good. I still can't keep my mind focused on anything, including distraction. I'm a movie fan, but I haven't been able to make it through a whole movie yet without loosing interest 15 minutes in. I feel completely ADD. This is happening in social situations too. I'll go out, and have fun for maybe 30 minutes. After that, I start to become "not-present" and I get anxious... like I should be doing something else.


Yep - I struggled with this too and still do on occasion. I couldn't focus on anything, movies, books, video games, most of all I couldn't focus at work and my performance suffered greatly. It's part of the initial shock and grief. This ends when you focus on yourself.



> I have managed to resist communicating with STBX. I got an email from her yesterday. It's the 1st communication I've gotten from her in 1.5 weeks. It was just some household info that I asked her for a few weeks back, and she thanked me for taking care of the pets and hoped I was doing ok. I haven't responded yet, but I think I'll just say "Thank you", so that she knows her message got through, and leave it at that. I've also avoided asking anyone about her, or spying her facebook/e-mail. The temptation is there strongly, but I keep telling myself "there is nothing you could possibly learn that would make any difference now".


Some people here encourage spying on the STBX - I agree with you - what could possibly change if you learned something? The only time spying is beneficial to you, is if you discover some sort of affair. Personally I couldn't be bothered to expend all that time and energy trying to find out for sure if my STBXW had an affair. I just looked at her behaviour patterns, and concluded I'm 99% certain that she did. Nothing will change with that extra 1%. Stay strong.

If you need absolute certainty, and you have the strength to deal with what you might find, it's your call. Just remember, you could discover 1 affair, or 100 affairs - what would that change? The end result is still the same.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

I've been reading things like MMSL, NMMNG, listening to some podcasts about attraction and communication, and of course, reading other people's advice and stories on this forum. It's all helping to clear away the bull**** that I've been feeding myself and swallowing willingly. It's painting the picture behind her words too. I never got the "love you but not in love with you" speech, but I think that's a big part of what happened. She began to see me as milk toast and weak, and lost attraction. That weakness was in part, because of my fear. My fear came from not knowing how to deal with the tempest of her emotions. Yes, her emotions were not normal, and her perceptions disordered, but I let that chaos overwhelm me. There was a better path, and I didn't see it. 

I think my shyness worked against me also, so I'm working on that too. I have a really hard time getting out of my own head. Last night, I went out to a club with the goal of starting conversations with anyone. I knew that some acquaintances of mine would be there, but I went alone. It was terrifying, but I had a small degree of success! I started a conversation with someone while ordering a beer, then with her friends. It was going well for a while, one was even flirting. At one point, I started getting self conscious and going quiet when the conversation turned toward a subject they all knew about and I didn't (Dr. Who). They tried to pull me back in, but I never really recovered after that. Later in the night, those girls got on stage and did a burlesque performance! Haha! I had no idea who they were. I came home somewhat disappointed that I couldn't stay out of my head, but today I realize that I never would've even attempted that before, and if I did, I would be worried about my wife's reaction. It's a step.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Stay away from Dr. Who nerds. They're worse than Trekkies. You did good. Keep going out and exposing yourself to social situations. Over time you will loosen up and it will be fine.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

It's been a little while since I posted, so I thought I'd update the thread. I haven't had any contact with my wife since she came to pick up the bed 3 weeks ago, although it feels longer than that. I haven't initiated any contact, and neither has she. 

This was the first Christmas in 9 or 10 years that we didn't spend together, and it was definitely hard. I spent time with my family, which was nice, but everyone felt the void. I don't think her parents support what she's doing, so I was worried about how her Christmas would be. I realize that isn't my problem, but I can't help but feel sad for her. I was conflicted about what to do if she sent me a "merry Christmas", but that didn't happen. That hurt. I came very close to texting her a "hope your holiday went well", but I resisted.

My emotions have leveled out from the lack of any contact, but I still miss her. Some mutual friends invited us both (independently) to a large New Year's Eve bonfire, and I know she's going. I would love to go, but I still don't feel comfortable seeing her in a social situation. I would feel awkward if she avoided me, or brought a date, or found a hook up there. I don't know what would happen, but the possibility of those things happening is enough to keep me from enjoying myself. I wonder how long this phase will last.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

That phase where you worry about running into her at an event will last for quite a while. You are concerned a scene will happen, maybe you will be afraid to see her having fun without you, maybe you will feel guilty having fun without her at your side. Its part of the journey, just as that temptation to wish her a merry christmas was. 

For myself I didnt attend functions like this when I thought she would show up. My stbx would just make a scene and I knew that. Actually even if I wasnt there she made a scene picking arguments with my friends making herself look like a fool. But that is my situation. I didnt want to give her the satisfaction of seeing me, knowing anything going on in my life. She wanted out of my life, she got it. 

If you choose to go, make sure the people who invited you know and understand the situation to help ward off any problems. If she is there, dont talk to her, she will use the opportunity to come over, ask how you have been. You may also get and I miss you something along those lines. She is going to feel you out.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

I didn't go to the party, and I refrained from asking anyone about it. I'm not sure whether to be proud of that or not. I was less afraid of her making a scene, than me feeling awkward or seeing something that I really didn't want to see. 

I was feeling pretty good until last Thursday, when I got an email from her saying that she leased an apartment, and wants to come and pack her stuff in two weeks. It will be a big, multi-day job, and I'm feeling very apprehensive about it. A lot of the furniture is antique, and hers from before the marriage. Its not particularly valuable, but I really did like that stuff. She wants to take most of the art as well. I'm trying to convince myself that getting rid of it will be closure and allow me a fresh start, but I'm really just feeling like the house will feel even more empty and lonely. Its just "stuff",but it made our home cozy, and I won't have the time or funds to replace it any time soon. Ugh! The stuff I'm keeping has equivalent value, but it stuff like electronics, mowers, and music gear... Not decorative stuff. 

What I'm really worried about is how to behave when she's here. I've been 180'ing her, but I also think that she's been 180'ing me. Her email had that way-too-formal style of writing that she does when she's emotional and trying to disguise it. I don't know what emotion she's hiding, and I probably shouldn't try to guess. I don't want to be rude or cold toward her, but she'll be here for a long time and we'll have to interact. She'll probably ask how I am, and the truth is that I'm not fine... Not fine at all. Should I fake a smile and lie? Ive started packing some of her things, in an effort to take some control, but it's kind of emotionally exhausting and I can't stick with it for long. 

How will I react if she brings one or several of her PosOMs to help on moving day. I have to think she will. She probably won't want me to know where her apt is, and she's not going to carry heavy furniture alone. I don't distrust her, but I'm not sure I trust her and whoever she brings enough to participate in the pack/move myself. What to do...what to do?


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## ICLH (Dec 26, 2013)

If I where you I'd pack the majority of her things and stay away from the apartment while she is packing/moving. If she takes things that you want or that are yours you can always ask for them back during the divorce proceedings. Don't give her the satisfaction in seeing you.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

Have her make a list of what she is taking. If you agree, then let her take it. If not, let her know you will be contesting that item in the divorce. Give her a time when the house will be open. You don't need to be there, unless you think she will steal your stuff.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Yes have her make a list of items, just to avoid any possible confrontations. I know it is hard and emotionally draining but packing up as much as you can will help you. Have as much of it ready to walk out the door as you can. It will seem like an eternity when she is at the home and watching her take the stuff out of the home, watching her pack it will be extremely painful for you, much harder than you packing it. 

She will ask you to leave while she does it. I got burned bad because I left, mostly because she just grabbed whatever she felt entitled to. I would have given her the junk if asked it was more how she just felt entitled to make every single decision that I didn't appreciate. You will also get a heck of shock when you come home and see so much gone. It really hits you in the gut, well it did for me. Mine only pulled the game once on me.


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## ICLH (Dec 26, 2013)

I'd have to agree with previous posts. Send her an email asking her to make a list of things she wants and plans on taking. Have her email it back to you. Make the email direct and to the point. Also, ask for the time and date she will be at the place. You don't need to be there. It's just another image in your head to think about and analyze for months on end.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Thanks everyone. I'll pack as much as I can before she gets here, even though it feels like backsliding having to deal with it alone. 

I'm undecided whether I should be here on move day. If I'm not here, I don't know if I trust her new "friends" not to pocket stuff, damage things, or move more than they should. It wouldn't surprise me if she told them how I'm to blame for everything and how horrible of a person I am. I know it's not true, but they might take the opportunity to "take revenge" in order to impress their hot new friend who's been so horribly victimized by the a-hole who lives here.  Maybe I'm over reacting or being paranoid. 

How obnoxious would it be if I told her not to bring anyone she's dating as help? I realize that says "not moving on", but crap... let's be honest... as much as I want to be able to turn off my emotions, be Mr. Alpha, and stay at 50k ft, the thought of some other guy that she's fkng picking through the remains of our life together and being her box moving hero just.... FAA! I don't know how I would react.

Maybe it's best if I risk the damage and not be here 

P.S. I tend to post here when I'm feeling my worst, so here's a somewhat funny story... maybe sadly ironic is a better description. In an earlier post, I mentioned getting up the nerve to talk to some women at a benefit show that I went to, and that I was disappointed that I couldn't keep the convo going when they started talking about Dr. Who. Well, the cutest girl from that group... the one who seemed most interested in me, found me on facebook and friend requested me a few days later. She mentioned having a blog, which I looked at. It was all about about her struggles with BPD!!!! :rofl: My brain screams RUN AWAY NOW! I start laughing, and by the time I look down, my fingers had already typed "You are such wonderfully articulate and descriptive writer SEND". Damn you fingers! Why am I so attracted to these girls and how do they find me? :lol::scratchhead:


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver,

She'd be ok to date when you're ready.

Just so long as you keep in mind what getting in deep would entail.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

You will feel like its backsliding a little, but you are controlling it, its much harder watching someone else pack your life away especially when she has friends helping her. You would be much more defensive and much more prone to want to keep items thus starting an argument. 

Once you actually start doing it you will find very little has any real sentimental value to you, its stuff. Yet watching her pack something it will remind you of the time you bought it together or trigger some memory. Doing it your own way, at your own pace will be benefit you. 

I have all sorts of sarcastic comments about the girl who perked your interest but we don’t want to start a gender war. The good news for you is you are starting to see a life and potential after all this.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

honcho said:


> You will feel like its backsliding a little, but you are controlling it, its much harder watching someone else pack your life away especially when she has friends helping her. You would be much more defensive and much more prone to want to keep items thus starting an argument.
> 
> Once you actually start doing it you will find very little has any real sentimental value to you, its stuff. Yet watching her pack something it will remind you of the time you bought it together or trigger some memory. Doing it your own way, at your own pace will be benefit you.
> 
> I have all sorts of sarcastic comments about the girl who perked your interest but we don’t want to start a gender war. The good news for you is you are starting to see a life and potential after all this.


If you're in the United States, Public Storage will usually give you the first month's rent for a buck.

I threw my ex's crap in there and mailed her the key.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Conrad said:


> If you're in the United States, Public Storage will usually give you the first month's rent for a buck.
> 
> I threw my ex's crap in there and mailed her the key.


Haha! I probably won't do that, but it's brilliant!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> Haha! I probably won't do that, but it's brilliant!


It's emotional judo.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

evolver said:


> ... the one who seemed most interested in me, found me on facebook and friend requested me a few days later. She mentioned having a blog, which I looked at. It was all about about her struggles with BPD!!!! :rofl: My brain screams RUN AWAY NOW! I start laughing, and by the time I look down, my fingers had already typed "You are such wonderfully articulate and descriptive writer SEND". Damn you fingers! Why am I so attracted to these girls and how do they find me? :lol::scratchhead:


Dude, read up on BPD. These are not the types of girls that are good to date. You will be in hell. You owe yourself better. Believe it.


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## Honorbound (Nov 19, 2013)

I wouldn't let anyone in my house while I wasn't there. I also agree new BF better not be there either. He'd have to be a whole new breed of dumba$$ to even contemplate it (with me, anyway). She might as well have an ambulance follow the loading van.

I told mine not to bring anyone over. I'd pack her crap up and help her load it. Can you not do that if you can't do Conrad's version?


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

helolover said:


> Dude, read up on BPD. These are not the types of girls that are good to date. You will be in hell. You owe yourself better. Believe it.


Oh, I know! From reading her blog, I could tell that she's dealing with it In a very head-on and positive way, but all the twisted thinking and perception is still there. I saw so much of my wife in her blog, it was kind of unnerving. This girl seems to have developed the ability to recognize and accept her disordered thoughts after the fact, where my wife just became hardened in her perceptions and became convinced that I was gaslighting her. My LTR before my wife was diagnosed with BPD too, which is why I'm looking inward to see if there is a reason I tend to gravitate toward these people. Once is unlucky, twice is coincidence, but three times? Maybe the problem is me.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

evolver said:


> Oh, I know! From reading her blog, I could tell that she's dealing with it In a very head-on and positive way, but all the twisted thinking and perception is still there. I saw so much of my wife in her blog, it was kind of unnerving. This girl seems to have developed the ability to recognize and accept her disordered thoughts after the fact, where my wife just became hardened in her perceptions and became convinced that I was gaslighting her. My LTR before my wife was diagnosed with BPD too, which is why I'm looking inward to see if there is a reason I tend to gravitate toward these people. Once is unlucky, twice is coincidence, but three times? Maybe the problem is me.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


I understand. My X is a very high conflict person who I believe suffers from a personality disorder. She's very bright, but her thinking/processing/action chain is very BPDish. I'll leave it to a health professional to diagnose her. I know enough to stay clear as she is emotionally unbalanced and predictably unpredictable.

I attract those types too. I've discerned a lot as of late why I attract the crazies. They fall madly in love at first and this is addictive. I was a conditioned nice guy beta white knight. A perfect fit for a BPDer. We rescue, fix, and control. In controlling (fixing) them, we remain important and central in their lives. We love to be needed. Eventually, crazy cannot be contained and they self destruct, we help them through the crisis, and the cycle repeats. It's exhausting and it's a NO WIN.

I'm with ya. If I see BPD or other red flags, I bow out.

HL


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> Oh, I know! From reading her blog, I could tell that she's dealing with it In a very head-on and positive way, but all the twisted thinking and perception is still there. I saw so much of my wife in her blog, it was kind of unnerving. This girl seems to have developed the ability to recognize and accept her disordered thoughts after the fact, where my wife just became hardened in her perceptions and became convinced that I was gaslighting her. My LTR before my wife was diagnosed with BPD too, which is why I'm looking inward to see if there is a reason I tend to gravitate toward these people. Once is unlucky, twice is coincidence, but three times? Maybe the problem is me.
> 
> _Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


It's a lock.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Sorry for the down post. I'm not really seeking advice on this one, but I had to vent. Skip it if you are avoiding emo posts. ;-)

I've spent every evening this week packing my wife's things and it's been very hard. Everything reminds me of some event. Tonight, the dam broke. 

She has a closet full of fabric and fabric scraps that I started packing. Halloween is our favorite holiday. Many years we would work on costumes together and they were always great. We even made it onto some local magazine covers. Sometimes the idea was mine, sometimes hers, but either way, she did most of the design work. We would each do our own construction, but since she designed them, I was reliant on her to explain how things went together. It was something we did together. 

This year, I was really inspired and came up the idea. I told her, and to my surprise, she came home from work one day with my costume completely designed. I told her that I really like her design, but that I wanted to work on it a bit myself. I tried to express that I wanted to be more involved in the design because I always feel lost during the construction stage. I was thinking that if I thought through the design myself, i wouldn't have to be as reliant on her during construction. Sometimes she would get frustrated with my lack of understanding her design sketches and I would feel kind of stupid for having to ask so many questions. She asked in her small voice "you don't want to build them together?" I could tell she was hurt. I did want to build them together, I just wanted a bigger role. We separated before we finished them, and completed them apart. The first time I saw her In her costume, I was dumbstruck by how beautiful she looked. It was one of the worst nights of my life. I doubt it would've changed anything, but I wish we could've built those costumes together.

The worst part though, was finding the cat linens. Shortly after getting our getting our first apartment together, we rescued a cat. It was an ordeal saving that cat. She was mostly feral and it was a ton of work before she came around. She eventually became a huge personality. We've rescued a few more cats since, but this cat was always our favorite. Maybe it was because she was our first together, maybe because we invested so much time in taming her. I don't know. Last year, she became sick. We did everything we could, but eventually it became clear that it was time to say goodbye. We took her to the vet and once the deed was done, my wife cried and wrapped her in colorful linens before they took her body for cremation. The image of her doing that was immediately burned into my mind forever. It was beautiful and sad at the same time. 

When I found those linens (not the actual ones, but duplicates), I snapped. I've never howled like that in my life. Deep and guttural. I don't even know where it came from. I'm glad No one was around to hear that. I think I've packed enough for tonight. 

I wonder if my wife will feel the same emotions when she unpacks this stuff. Somehow I think probably not.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

I was reading the "war stories" thread and the parts about subjective truth have me revisiting something that I thought I had sorted. A few weeks into our seperation, my wife emailed me a list of incidents that she considered examples of my emotional abuse against her. That list hit me hard. I remember each of the incidents, but in a VERY different way. Over time, the more I thought about it, the more I started thinking, this has to be part of her bpd/depression/twisted thinking. I'd like to share one of them here because I'm wondering whether this kind of difference is in perception is common in relationships, and if so, how do you handle it?

The incident: I'm in the U.S. I had gone to Bristol U.K. to speak at a conference. I left a 3 dress shirts in the hotel closet by accident. My wife had gotten me one of the shirts as a Christmas gift. It was very nice. After returning, it took me a quite a while to realize they were missing. My work attire is casual, so I rarely wear dress shirts. My wife typically handles laundry duty, but she leaves ironing for me. 

Her take, as she wrote it: "the time you left your clothes in England, and then proceeded to blame me for hiding them is another example. After it came out that you left them in the hotel, you stated that nothing was lost that you cared about. I mentioned that a lot of them were gifts that I had bought you. You stated that you never liked those clothes anyway. That was hurtful. I don't care that you forgot them and it's not just a matter of being honest."

My take: A week or two had past, and I couldn't find the dress shirt I was looking for. Since W usually handles laundry, I asked "have you seen my black button up?" I assumed that it had probably been washed, but was in a pile for me to iron. W accuses me angrily of leaving the shirts in UK. It was possible, but I looked through the laundry basket anyway to make sure. I mentioned that it's good that I don't have to wear dress shirts often and that 2 of them were old, but I really liked the black one (that she bought me). I had trouble finding the hotel number, but eventually did. I called them they didn't have the shirts. 

I certainly never accused, or even thought that she might have hidden those shirts. Why would she? I wasn't angry, and I never even raised my voice. Maybe she was offended that I looked through the laundry after she told me I left them overseas?

To me, this was such a minor and forgettable incident. To her, it was traumatic enough to still be holding on to it 6 years later. Most of the items on her list were similar incidents where she experienced some attack that never happened in my perception of reality. Obviously none of you were there to witness the exchange, but Is this level of perceptual dissonance common in relationships?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

As DeMello says, "the problem is rarely where you think it is"


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Of course. I don't think her list of issues contain the real reason she walked away. I'm convinced that they are mostly distractions from the real underlying issue(s).

Nevertheless, that list haunts me. How could someone perceive the same events so incredibly differently?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> Of course. I don't think her list of issues contain the real reason she walked away. I'm convinced that they are mostly distractions from the real underlying issue(s).
> 
> Nevertheless, that list haunts me. How could someone perceive the same events so incredibly differently?


Do you think men and women process information similarly?


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Conrad said:


> Do you think men and women process information similarly?


Interesting question. I don't presume to know in such generalities, but obviously my stbxw and I process information differently. 

While I was packing, I came across a diary of hers. Very illuminating stuff. It was from when we first started dating, then jumped ahead a year, then jumped ahead again to 2 years after we married. The early stuff read like the diary of a 12 year old. Strange since she was 25. The most recent stuff was very mid-life-crisis sounding. Lamenting not running away with the rock star she had a one-night-stand with, back before we were exclusive. Feeling trapped in suburbia in a country who's culture she hated. Saying how she married the one person in the world who's soul she couldn't swallow, and how great that was, but how much it bothered her now. Such a strange mixture of love and discontent. She had a breakdown and ended up in the hospital shortly after her last entry. The things she has been saying recently echo the sentiment. 

I see how this isn't about me. That doesn't stop the pain though. I hope she finds stillness. I hope I find it too.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> Interesting question. I don't presume to know in such generalities, but obviously my stbxw and I process information differently.
> 
> While I was packing, I came across a diary of hers. Very illuminating stuff. It was from when we first started dating, then jumped ahead a year, then jumped ahead again to 2 years after we married. The early stuff read like the diary of a 12 year old. Strange since she was 25. The most recent stuff was very mid-life-crisis sounding. Lamenting not running away with the rock star she had a one-night-stand with, back before we were exclusive. Feeling trapped in suburbia in a country who's culture she hated. Saying how she married the one person in the world who's soul she couldn't swallow, and how great that was, but how much it bothered her now. Such a strange mixture of love and discontent. She had a breakdown and ended up in the hospital shortly after her last entry. The things she has been saying recently echo the sentiment.
> 
> I see how this isn't about me. That doesn't stop the pain though. I hope she finds stillness. I hope I find it too.


She won't find it by running.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

No, she won't. Right now, it seems like she's trying to run in a big circle, right back to 25 years old. Trying to get back the feeling she had for a few hours when a rock star lured her back to his hotel room and asked her to run away with him (and never called again after he got what he wanted). 

I feel sad for how she'll feel when she realizes happiness comes from within. Depression/pd is a horrible affliction and it damages more than just the afflicted.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> No, she won't. Right now, it seems like she's trying to run in a big circle, right back to 25 years old. Trying to get back the feeling she had for a few hours when a rock star lured her back to his hotel room and asked her to run away with him (and never called again after he got what he wanted).
> 
> I feel sad for how she'll feel when she realizes happiness comes from within. Depression/pd is a horrible affliction and it damages more than just the afflicted.


Ev,

How are you doing with claiming your happiness from within?


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Honestly, not so well yet. That's probably obvious from my last few posts. I had a stretch where I was moving forward and starting to feel good, but I've backslid. I'm constantly distracted at work by the details of pushing this divorce forward, while also being asked to do more and more at an upcoming conference and still get my regular work done (supposed to be creative... not feeling creative). Evening are spent packing her stuff, which is heartbreaking. It doesn't leave any time to unwind, but I need to get it finished before she comes with the moving truck. Sleep is troubled, then I get up and do it again. I hope I can start moving forward again once her stuff is gone and our assets fully split.

I am doing small things for myself like working out and learning to cook. My wife was a great cook and I've decided that I don't want to give up delicious and healthy eating. I went skiing with a new friend, and we're going again in a few weeks. Last night, I went out to a club and had a really good time until the end of the night. I managed to stay out of my head, start and carry conversations with both sexes, and generally feel confident and good. A few ladies approached me throughout the night, which was flattering, but no one I would date. It was nice to be able to go to a club and feel free to talk to anyone and everyone, without worrying about the wife's judgement.  

I'm realizing that I derived too much of my self-worth from my role as her husband. Before meeting her, I didn't know where I stood (My SMV, to use a term that's new to me). I considered her a 9 or 10, so when she pursued and fell in love with me, I figured that I must be in her ballpark, or else she would've never pursued me or stuck with me. I've lived with that notion for the past 12 years. Now that she's gone, I'm back to questioning where I stand again. It's a confidence killer, and probably a big part of why I can't stop thinking about her reasons for leaving.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Have you read Anthony DeMello's "Awareness?"


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

I haven't. I'm a bit biased against those kinds of authors, but I'll check it out. Thanks!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> I haven't. I'm a bit biased against those kinds of authors, but I'll check it out. Thanks!


It sounds like you're ready for it.

BTW - what "kind" of author do you think he is?

http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tonyawareness.pdf


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Conrad said:


> It sounds like you're ready for it.
> 
> BTW - what "kind" of author do you think he is?
> 
> http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/tonyawareness.pdf


Christian/spirituality, but I'm only going by what Wikipedia says. As long as it stays on this plane of existence, we'll be fine. . Thanks for the link. It's in my iBook now. 

Stbxw spent the morning here at the house, to start dividing our art work and trip souvenirs. It's the 1st time I've seen her since November. I was nervous that I wouldn't be able to keep it together, but I did pretty well. I couldn't help getting wet eyes when she wanted to keep the silhouette we had done in Disney. I didn't think she'd want it, since it's really sappy and has both of us together. Other than that few minutes, I stayed all business. She lamented about how stressful and difficult her life is now, and the future won't be easy. I sympathized, but reminded her that this is the choice she made. She said "I'll survive, that's what I do, I'm used to it, I'm a survivor, I just keep going". I resisted the urge to roll my eyes. "Keep running", I thought. 

This time next week, all her things will be gone from the house. Another tether cut. I think the extra level of disconnection will be a relief, but I do fear it a bit.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Just to reassure you, there was a movement amongst the Roman Church to excommunicate him.

He's about personal leadership - and the spiritual dimensions associated with same.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

It's been a while, so time for an update. I packed up about 80% of what we agreed would be W's stuff. I'm glad I did it alone. It was extremely difficult, stressful, and depressing, but it felt like some closure. W came for three days while I was at work to finish the last of it. When I was packing, I was careful to keep the boxes out of the way and make sure the house was still functional. W had no such desire. It was shocking when I came home after the first day she was here. Boxes everywhere. 

I decided to not be home for the move. I didn't want to be there, and she didn't want me there. I went hiking, then met my family for dinner. When I came home, I felt relief and peace. For the most part, I still do. There is very little tethering me to her now. 

I've taken control of the divorce process. We are in complete agreement about how everything will be split, so we've dumped the lawyers and hired a mediator to write it up and make it official. It's kind of amazing how easily we agreed to everything. She's being very fair... Almost too fair. She might be feeling guilty. She still won't look me in the eyes. 

For the moment, my roller coaster has leveled out. I still can't go more than 15 minutes without thinking about her, but it's different now. She's become more abstract in my mind. Less a person that I failed, more a puzzle that I never solved. I think i feel more disappointment than anything else. I miss her, and I don't think life will be better without her, but I don't think it will be terrible either. 

P.S. Reading Awareness now. Thanks again for the link.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> It's been a while, so time for an update. I packed up about 80% of what we agreed would be W's stuff. I'm glad I did it alone. It was extremely difficult, stressful, and depressing, but it felt like some closure. W came for three days while I was at work to finish the last of it. When I was packing, I was careful to keep the boxes out of the way and make sure the house was still functional. W had no such desire. It was shocking when I came home after the first day she was here. Boxes everywhere.
> 
> I decided to not be home for the move. I didn't want to be there, and she didn't want me there. I went hiking, then met my family for dinner. When I came home, I felt relief and peace. For the most part, I still do. There is very little tethering me to her now.
> 
> ...


You're welcome.

Stay the course.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Wow! Wife and I just had our first, and probably only mediation session a few hours ago. We'd already agreed on how to divide everything, so that part only took 15 minutes or so. Then the mediator asked if we were absolutely sure we wanted to submit the divorce paperwork, and all hell broke loose. Wife began hurling the blame, insults and accusations. She was crying and full of so much emotion. I did my best to listen and engage her without returning the daggers. As much as she shouted (literally SHOUTED) YES! DO THE PAPERWORK, even the mediator could tell she didn't want to. The session went long, and between wife's shouting, the mediator just kept repeating "are you really sure you want me to submit this paperwork?"

I was shocked. It was hard to endure. Reconciliation still isn't in the cards, but I now know that she still has feelings for me. I invited her back to the house to continue discussion, and things were much more calm. I found out that my 180 actually did have an effect on her. She's still saying "it's too late", and I did not disagree. I think the chances that today will result in some sort of epiphany for her are smaller than winning the lottery, and even if she does have a change of heart, I doubt her ego will allow her to admit it to me. Damn her fragile ego!

I also don't think that loss of respect is an issue in this case. She really seems to think that I hate her. That I found her unlovable. That I could have someone better than her, and couldn't possibly have ever really been in love with her. If that's a smokescreen, she was very convincing. Arrg! 

Unfortunately, I know that this has caused me to backslide. There's that damn shred of hope again. I know I must ignore it. Resume the 180. In one of the infinite universes, she comes back to me. Whether or not I live in that universe is beyond my control.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Is the paperwork all signed and being submitted? Don’t be surprised if/when she suddenly doesn’t agree with something or wants more clarification or some way to interact with you. She is probably starting to realize she got exactly what she asked for and it isn’t what she hoped for. 

She doesn’t think you hate her probably but more why didn’t you chase her harder. I remember in earlier posts where you had her on a pedestal, that you felt lucky to have her. Now you gave yourself value, you stood your ground and her own ego cant figure it out. You are also now out of the game playing end and you have a document, suddenly it is real and real is no fun. 

When my brother divorced his first wife 20+ years ago it was a similar story to yours, my brother pushed it thru, gave her exactly what she wanted every step of the way. Kept reminding her the whole time that it was exactly what she wanted and how she wanted it. She acted just like your spouse did right up till the moment after the judge ruled. She started begging for a second chance as soon as they walked out of the court room and it continued for quite a while afterwards. My brother said the same thing to her over and over. You got exactly what you wanted, you are happy now remember? Careful what you wish for, it may come true…..so many learn that the hard way.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

The paperwork is being prepared, but nothing has been signed yet. We'll do that individually.

I don't know how many times this camel's back can break. Apparently I'm a glutton for punishment.

As I mentioned, after we left the mediator's office, I invited her back to the house to continue talking. Things were much more calm, though she was still tossing out the accusations here and there. As we continued to talk, I felt like I was finally getting through to her. She would ask a question, and I would answer with complete and brutal honesty. I was an open book. I tried to use as many words as necessary to fully answer her questions, but no more than required. 

She angrily accused me of sleeping around and living it up during our separation, and pointed to my facebook as evidence. I told her that I wasn't sleeping with or dating anyone until I've healed from this and improved myself. She was quite eager to make sure I knew that she WAS sleeping around. I explained the "living it up" was part of my self-improvement plan. My goal was to make friendly connections with people, get over my shyness and learn to get out of my own head. She seemed impressed by that.

By the time she left, she was tearful but very calm. She was complimenting me and expressed being impressed by the changes I was making. No mention of changing her mind, but I didn't expect that.

... and then....

This morning, I start getting word that she's telling friends that I'm insane because I "called her a dirty **** but still wanted to reconcile so that she could perform acts of service" for me. WTF??? This is so far from the reality of what happened, that I don't even... WTF?? The saddest thing is that I'd be willing to be that she really thinks this happened!

How many times has something similar happened? So many times that I know of, and probably hundreds of times that I don't! She claims to not have this kind of communication problem with anyone else, and so blames me. It's seems so far beyond miscommunication though. How did she get like this? Could it possibly be me?


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

She has to make you the bad guy, that it is all your problem. As you have said in earlier posts, she is running from the problem and not facing it. In her head she cant be the problem, she is perfect thus its all you. So the crazy stories start, she wants sympathy from her friends. Did you really expect her to stand up and take responsibility at this point? While the gossip crowd seems to love this sort of stuff, that’s all it is “drama” and no one really puts much stock in anything she will say.

If I had a 10th of the fun my stbx claims I have had I could die a happy man  Lets see I have slept with every woman who works for me, I have a sexual compulsive something not sure yet but it sounded very clinical, I have spent all her, not my money but her money on hookers and the latest is I am trying to get her back because I kept her as a sex slave for years. She always seems to leave out the part where she left me and moved in with another man, the one lone truth. 

Your stbx got this way because it is who she is. She wants to get a reaction out of you and be portrayed as the victim. Its what they do.


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## Convection (Apr 20, 2013)

evolver said:


> Could it possibly be me?


Possible. But unlikely.



evolver said:


> She angrily accused me of sleeping around and living it up during our separation, and pointed to my facebook as evidence.


and



evolver said:


> She was quite eager to make sure I knew that she WAS sleeping around.


That'll learn you, I guess. I take it there will be no more post-mediation discussions. If she can't reconcile the hypocrisy of the above, then you are best off avoiding her until she can demonstrate maturity beyond that of a 12-year-old.

One of the brilliant TAM ladies (and I am aghast to say I can't remember which one) said something tailor-made for your situation:

*Give defiant people what they want.*

She asked for this, not you - and if she starts in, she needs to be reminded of it. Every time you feel that nostalgia creep in and questions get asked, you need to come back to that. When she damsels in mediation, repeat it over and over - aloud, if necessary. If your mutual social circles don't already know, you need to make this plainly clear to them: that she asked for this and while you are sad and didn't want a divorce, you are going to move on, as she is doing.

And when she tries to bait you with that malarkey, you need to address it the same way, if you deign to address it at all:

W: I know you're sleeping around.
Evolver: I am moving on with my life. Besides, this is what you wanted - to be away from me. Why do you care what I do?
W: _sputtering_
Evolver: _click_ (Which represents you hanging up the phone, leaving the room, or ignoring her texts.)

I feel for you, evolver. Your love for your W radiates through your writing ... but that person is gone now. I'm glad to see you are moving on. It's really the only thing you can do. Don't let the small setbacks get you down, I think you're doing fine, considering.

Best of luck, brother.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

evolver, it sounds like your X has a bit of histrionic personality disorder. i'm no health professional though. At the minimum, she's probably a high conflict personality. I recognize this as my X is too: never at fault, not responsible, lies, and happy to blame others (me) for her actions/choices. 

The conflict is in them. This is all about her. Not you.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Thanks Honcho & Convection. Once again, this forum feels like a sanity saver.

You're right about the hypocrisy of her accusing me of sleeping around while at the same time doing it herself. It's bad, but she does have a bit of defense. During our trial separation, she told me she intended to "have companions", as she put it. I told her, she really needed to reconsider that. Ok.. I basically pleaded for her to not do that. No response. 

After she told me she wanted to divorce, I began my 180 in earnest. I told her that I kept my promise of monogamy to her through the separation, but that was over. No more promises, and she was free also, but that I didn't want to know about it. I had no intention of actually doing anything, but I wanted her to face that possibility, and I felt like it didn't matter because she was already "having companions". 

She now claims that she was monogamous until I set her free. I'm not sure I believe it, but I have no proof otherwise. Either way, I wanted to mention that. Technically, she may not have done anything that I didn't permit.

It's still a bridge that would be really freaking hard to un-burn. 

It's also occurred to me that this miscommunication and always being the victim, might be related to her PTSD. That is one of her official diagnoses. I read today that the hyper vigilance can cause the sufferer to distort and perceive social attacks where there are none. It's sad if that's what's happening. She'd never believe it.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

In many cases ones suffering from emotional or mental issues will demonize the ones closest to them. They convince themselves that you are trying to control them, to not allow them to be what they want but rather make them what you want. Its not a matter of miscommunication really, they just spin anything and everything to match the storyline they want. 

Its not unusual at all for them to have friendships and relationships that don’t last long. They make friends easily, right now she can play the victim, you’re a monster spin, get attention and sympathy but sooner or later people see and start to figure out somethings not right. Then all she will do is most likely make new friends or boyfriends.

Even if you can get them to seek professional help or therapy they usually only go long enough to get there own storyline validated, once a therapsist starts to ask hard questions or present the “realities” to them they usually quit or go to a different one. They almost always refuse MC because you interfere with the story they want to tell. 

Whether she was monogamous or not till you set her free…you didn’t set her free, she left and she went and did whatever she wanted. Yet she still trys to spin it like she was some saint till you drove her to see others. Point being is they cant ever seem to do the simplest and most easy thing. Own the decision they made.

In the last year I have heard every single crazy spin on my married life that could be spun. Right now without a doubt in my mind she believes it, she has told the stories so many times and convinced herself that is how it was. Yours probably has too to a point. Even when the world tells them they are wrong, it just makes them dig there heels in harder. Until they start to tell themselves the truth you cant convince them otherwise.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

So I recognize that what happened during and after the mediation session has me back in the tunnel. I was starting to... not to be happy, but to have periods of fun. I was even occasionally enjoying being alone in the house. Now I'm back to not sleeping well, and not being able to stop thinking about her. Once again, my instict is saying "Contact her", while my head is saying "It will go bad and you'll just make it worse".

My therapist, who is also a psychologist, has been saying that she has BPD. I thought she might be right, but now I don't think so. I've learned about something called C-PTSD, or Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, that really sounds like an exact fit for her upbringing, experiences, and now behaviors. One of her official diagnoses is PTSD. C-PTSD isn't recognized in the DSM yet. Apparently, it's frequently misdiagnosed as BPD. 

I started a thread on a PTSD supporters forum, asking if her distorted thinking might be coming from PTSD, and I got a lot of "yes!". https://www.myptsd.com/c/threads/is-this-a-symptom-of-ptsd.39850/ if
anyone is interested.

Reading up on C-PTSD is helping me see the rational in her behavior. I wish I would've understood what she was dealing with long ago. Now, I have no credibility with her. If I were to even hint that her "reality" may be colored by her PTSD, she'd think I'm gaslighting her again. Sadly, that means I lose my best friend and lover, and she's probably doomed to repeat the cycle until she manages to see through it.

P.S. Honcho, reading your story makes me think there are a lot of similarities in our personalities. I'm sorry for how messy your split is going.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> Sadly, that means I lose my best friend and lover, and she's probably doomed to repeat the cycle until she manages to see through it.


Most never do.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

“She’s probably doomed to repeat the cycle until she manages to see through it.”

Your statement sums it all up SHE has to start to see it, till that happens you will never convince her otherwise, her friends wont, her family wont. The world can tell them they have a problem but till the light bulb start to glow inside there own heads it’s a futile argument. It’s the easiest answer and the hardest to accept. 

Whatever her diagnose is or could be till any professional gets her into treatment its just conjecture. She could have none, she could have them all, and the subtleties to distinguish are very hard to do. 

You will have setbacks during this journey which is part of why people jump on the do the 180 speech so much. Your instinct is to still care for her, help her, yet you cant right now. When you have contact with her the emotional part of you hammers the rational part. Although it may seem like an eternity going thru this your timeline is not that long. You are going to have good days and bad days for a while. You have allowed yourself to get fixated back on her, work towards concentrating on yourself again, instead of researching her problems starting researching how its affected your life, the caretaker role so to speak you have had with her. Get your focus back on yourself.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

The more you TRY to convince the disordered, the more they perceive you to be weak.

It's approval seeking.

Think about it.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Conrad said:


> The more you TRY to convince the disordered, the more they perceive you to be weak.
> 
> It's approval seeking.
> 
> Think about it.


Interesting insight. I guess on a very fundamental level, I do want her to "get it" for selfish reasons. I was happily oblivious to her unhappiness. I want that happiness back, but I can no longer be oblivious. The only way to get that happiness back now, is for her to recognize and address her own issues.

The other side to that, is that I DO care about her. I'd like for her to address her issues, ideally with me, but if not, then alone or with someone else.



honcho said:


> “You have allowed yourself to get fixated back on her, work towards concentrating on yourself again, instead of researching her problems starting researching how its affected your life, the caretaker role so to speak you have had with her. Get your focus back on yourself.


The research is a double-edge sword for me. One one hand, it gives me a sense of control and helps me clear the fog. I've been accused of remembering events differently, or not remembering emotionally attacking her so many times, that I've been questioning my sanity. I suspect that if STBXW posted here, she would be saying "what's wrong with him that he doesn't remember being mean to me?". I need to make sure it's not ME who's disordered in that way. I don't want to be the one who's doomed to repeat the cycle until I see through it. I want to see through it!

On the other hand, it does keep me fixated. It keeps me from moving on in some ways. When I have these epiphanies about what's happening, I start to empathize with her point of view. I start to feel her pain. Maybe that could've brought us closer before. Now it just means I'm taking on even more pain.

It doesn't help that my therapist went out for knee surgery over a month ago, and is now MIA. This forum has been my therapist since then. I'm dreading starting all over, but I made an appointment with a new one for Monday.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver,

I don't talk too much about me.

But, I "got a handle" on my wife's disorder.

We went through two stretches of time without a word passing between us. First was roughly 3 months. The second (nearly 3/4 a year later) was almost 6 months.

The logjam was broken each time by her simply showing up - and absolutely banging my lights out.

I finally heard the words, "I don't want them, I want you"

Has it been perfect? LOL

At times, it's been ridiculous. It sometimes feels like Sherman's march to the sea.

But, it is what it is.

And, the truth is, I want her too.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

Yes it’s a double edged sword, you want to understand what happened, is happening. They rewrite history, its standard fare again the deflection angle they all seem to play, the more you question yourself the more power they have. You just cant put a great deal of stock into what they say right now. It is hard to do but the less you focus on that the better. She knows your weaknesses probably better than you. 

We all want our happiness back, most of us do have that selfish desire and you weren’t oblivious to her unhappiness. The two of you have worked on issues and you aren’t a mind reader. She did have the responsibility in your relationship to express her “unhappiness” and work on it with you. She chose not to. Whether it was the responsible or irresponsible choice it was hers. 

You want to put rational to irrational, you want to put a clinical diagnosis give yourself a medical reason for her actions. You care about her that’s obvious, I still care about my stbx. Our feelings don’t change in a day. You are still early in the game. You are lucky that you basically have an agreement worked out as fast as you have. You got what we all hoped would happen for us and it rarely works that way.

The quicker and easier that you remove yourself from her situation the less she will be able to use you as the crutch for her problems. Right now she can blame you for anything and everything and she will. Yes if she came on here today and read your posts she would probably say what is your problem how can he see it that way. Its what they do. 


So unfortunately since the more you try and help her and try to get her to see her problems the more reinforced she will get in her position. The more you remove yourself from the equation the less she can “blame” you. The less she can use you as the bad guy the more she will have to reflect on herself and hopefully get some help or address her own demons. 

She knows you would help her, she has to ask. She either will or she wont.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Don't listen to what they say, watch what they do.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Evolver,

Read my thread in the private section called "I should just divorce her..."

It'll keep you entertained with much lessons to learn about your "not-so-unique" situation.

I was you, married to your wife and am now on the other side of the mess. Mind you, the suffering I had to endure was complicated by events that you fortunately won't have to deal with.

Conrad held my hand for much of the way, all along, everyday and still does to this day. Listen to him.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Thanks Synthetic, reading it now. I'm only on page 17, but already I see myself in your thread.

I do feel lucky that our split hasn't gone hostile. Especially after reading some stories here. Let's hope it stays that way.

I'm feeling pretty ok the last few days. Lonely as hell though, even around other people... which is strange. I'm starting to wonder if this is normal for someone going through this experience, or if this is one of my issues.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> Thanks Synthetic, reading it now. I'm only on page 17, but already I see myself in your thread.
> 
> I do feel lucky that our split hasn't gone hostile. Especially after reading some stories here. Let's hope it stays that way.
> 
> I'm feeling pretty ok the last few days. Lonely as hell though, even around other people... which is strange. I'm starting to wonder if this is normal for someone going through this experience, or if this is one of my issues.


That will abate once you start feeling better about yourself.

What's happening in IC?


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> I do feel lucky that our split hasn't gone hostile.


Mine didn't either. I have a theory on that actually. There's a minimum level of hostility required for a codependent mind to successfully break free from a disordered spouse. The disordered side can often be very smart about using "peace" for ransom efforts (money, favors, apologies, sex, love, freedom and such)

I gave that ransom to a degree to protect myself financially and emotionally. It didn't completely work, and I'm sometimes left wondering if I should've gone "all-in" to fulfill an internal need to stand up to her bullsh1t. To a codependent mind, it can be a double-edged sword. Everyone has their own recovery path.




> I'm feeling pretty ok the last few days. Lonely as hell though, even around other people... which is strange. I'm starting to wonder if this is normal for someone going through this experience, or if this is one of my issues.


Completely normal and absolutely temporary.

Don't count on your good days to last for now. Just enjoy them, because there will be many up and down periods for the next year or so. Some of the "down" times are very very difficult to endure. Just know this and expect them. Overtime, you'll begin to appreciate the inner strength you never expected to possess. The mind is powerful and mysterious.

To lighten things up: You'll find better than the ungrateful b1tch


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Conrad said:


> What's happening in IC?


Last night was my 1st meeting with the new one. It went pretty well. The therapist agreed that STBXW's behaviors were likely C-PTSD related. She described the mindset of someone suffering from that condition, and how they are conditioned to see themselves as the victim.

For example, when STBXW accused me of sleeping around, and I responded by saying that I wasn't even dating anyone until I got my head on straight, she interpreted that as me insulting her for sleeping around. If there's any opportunity to interpret something as an attack against her, she will interpret it that way, no matter the stretch.

It was just an initial meeting, but I did get the impression that she understood what I was dealing with. It sucks to start over, especially when I was moving past just needing triage, and into being able to really look at myself. Hopefully I can get back there quickly with the new therapist.



synthetic said:


> Mine didn't either. I have a theory on that actually. There's a minimum level of hostility required for a codependent mind to successfully break free from a disordered spouse. The disordered side can often be very smart about using "peace" for ransom efforts (money, favors, apologies, sex, love, freedom and such)


Synthetic, your thread is fascinating. So many parallels! I'm on P31, so still near the beginning. I completely empathize with your inability to get mad at her because of her BPD. I have a hard time being mad at my W for her wacky resentments. It would be easier to detach if I could get mad, but i'm more mad at myself for being blind to where they were coming from back when there was still time to figure out how to deal with them.

My theory is that my W is being amicable because she feels guilty for leaving, and possibly fearful of being adversarial. I'm being amicable because she is, and because I see no advantage in fighting. Also, because I'm secretly hoping that this somehow all goes away. Intellectually, I know that's impossible, but...


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

It's not impossible.

It's just not "likely"

But, you don't know what she will actually do and see until she actually does it.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

She isn’t being amicable because of guilt and she has no fear of being adversarial. She has basically gotten exactly what she has wanted. Remember during the mediation hearing when she was having “outburst”. She wasn’t running the show, she didn’t like it. The two of you met and talked, you again went with rational, she with irrational. While I agree with the new therapist that she is spinning each and every sentence you say to meet her storyline I disagree what she was thinking. You aren’t dating, in your spouses head she is telling herself you aren’t over her, you still want her. She is the priority. I don’t think insults had anything to do with it. Is the therapist wrong, maybe not, am I wrong, maybe not. Its all conjecture because only one person knows and she isn’t talking about her problems. 

Your not getting mad because you want to have it all go away and have the old life return. While you may think this some great secret your spouse is fully aware of this. Until she believes differently her patterns wont change. You cant be mad at yourself for not seeing the signs or whatever, hindsight is always perfect. None of us are mindreaders unless people share the feelings, ask for change or help we are powerless. 

I still hope my spouse will come back to earth, in some ways I want my old life back too. We see a person who has an illness that we care about and we want to help. We rationalize it. The world can tell them they have a problem. Till they believe it themselves it’s a pointless argument. Focus on yourself, keep yourself mentally strong. If she comes out of this and asks for help and you chose to you will be strong enough for the burdens ahead. If she doesn’t you will be strong enough to take full advantage of your new life. Either way, win for you.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

I wanted to document this here, mainly as a record of my progress, so I can look back on it in the future.

STBXW messaged me about wanting to drop off some paperwork and we agreed to meet at the house after work. I had really leveled off over the past week, and was a bit nervous that seeing her would set me back again. She had already been there for a few seconds when I arrived. She was blocking the garage door. It took her a few moments to realize I was waiting for her to move. She slammed her car into reverse, squeeling wheels, then drove over the lawn getting out of the way.

Previously, I would've taken this action to mean she was angry about something. Now I recognize it as her being embarrassed for being slow to realize she was blocking my path, and then becoming flustered. Her gaze-averting head-down posture and nervousness confirmed it. I said nothing.

Seeing her made me feel very little. That's a big change. I felt confident and with no particular desire for her to stay or go. I had a few things to give to her, so she followed me inside. Without any prompting from me, she began telling me little things about her apartment, new girlfriend, cat, a club night she was planning on going to, etc. I engaged her small talk in the mildly disinterested way one would a friendly stranger. She complimented my new haircut (I had the same one the entire time we were married). She started to head for the door three or four times, then stopped to offer up some other inconsequential detail about her new life. Again, I felt no particular desire for her to stay or go. When she did leave, I went about my business. For some reason, I felt really calm and confident after that. I don't know why.

That feeling lasted all evening. The night was a bit rough though. I kept having a dream where I would go to kiss her, and she would offer up her cheek or pull away because she just put lipstick on and didn't want to mess it up. That was something that would happen frequently in reality. She would put make up on, then gesture for a kiss, then pull away for an "air kiss". I always found that perfectly understandable, yet still somehow mildly insulting. *shrug*

The new therapist seems to be heading down the codependent route, something that the previous one steered me away from, saying "that doesn't seem like you". When I read about codependence, I see some of the aspects of it in my self, but other aspects seem like the opposite of me. Since denial is a big aspect of codependency, I'm keeping my mind open to the possibility.


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## honcho (Oct 5, 2013)

I wouldn’t be too concerned with the codependence route or angle. Everyone has it to some degree in a relationship I think. Your subconscious mind will play games with you and the dreams will taunt and tease you at times. It happened to me and did subside. 

Even now a year out, when we have a court date or lawyer meetings I will have the “weird” dreams for a night. Guess it’s the price you pay for holding it together in the conscious world. 

Don’t be surprised if she contacts you or wants to meet again. Needs something from the house, anything. She wanted to feel you out a little, thus the small talk. She wants you to hear about the little details in her life. Keep you still attached to her even in a small way. Don’t engage or offer up whats going on in your life to her. Let her wonder about that


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> Since denial is a big aspect of codependency, I'm keeping my mind open to the possibility.


I can pretty much guarantee that's the root issue.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Still on the roller coaster, although it's the smoother little bunny hills now. Stbxw stopped by last week to sign some tax paperwork. I wasn't feeling much, but then we hugged as she was leaving. During the hug, she said "I miss you (pause) that was probably bad to say..." I was surprised how hard that hit me. I didn't expect it. It felt good at first, like I was moving on and she might be realizing what she's loosing. Then I got angry, thinking that it didn't have to be this way... You chose this! Then sadness because there is no turning back now. We sign the papers tomorrow. 

On a different note, I've been skiing with and talking with a woman who is VERY attractive, interesting, and who I like being friends with. It's a strange, somewhat dangerous feeling situation though, and has me really looking inward. She's married, but tells me she's polyamorous, and her marriage is open. At this point, I don't know what her intentions are toward me. I don't know what I want them to be either. I like being her friend, and I think I like the ego boost from thinking she might want something more from me, even though I'm not open to more. Maybe fwb, but I've got strong reservations with that too. Even without her complicated relationship status, she's every red flag rolled into one. I think I'm afraid to ask because I don't want to loose that ego boost, or her friendship. It reminds me of some of the fears I had with my wife. I think this might be one of my selfish-a-hole tendencies colliding with my insecurity. Not a good thing. I keep thinking, a confident, secure guy would flat out ask her what her intentions were. But then, a confident, secure guy would know what his own intentions were too. At the moment, I'm just coasting. 

It might come to a head next weekend though. We're going on an all weekend ski trip. Just the two of us. We're sharing a room. I'm kind of terrified. IC is on hold due to an insurance mix up too. Arg!


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

She's polyamorous and you know this.

And, you "don't know what her intentions are"

I'd say they're quite clear.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Does her husband know you and her will be together? She might be polyamorous and he might not be. He may be oblivious and she may be lying to you. 

Don't do it.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Wouldn't you be jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire?


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

bandit.45 said:


> Wouldn't you be jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire?


I believe the fire is attractive to him, since he's been on ice.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Conrad said:


> I believe the fire is attractive to him, since he's been on ice.


So he's going to make his situation better by becoming an OM? 

Conrad, how the fvck does that make anything better? :scratchhead:


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

bandit.45 said:


> So he's going to make his situation better by becoming an OM?
> 
> Conrad, how the fvck does that make anything better? :scratchhead:


It doesn't. He said he wasn't sure of her intentions - and they are quite clear. I'm not recommending he pursue it. But, I totally realize the rush he's getting from thinking about the fact that a female wants him in that way.

It's been awhile for evolver.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Her husband definitely knows. I've met him. She and her husband had the poly talk years ago. It does bother me though. She is definitely in the driver's seat. He seems depressed and withdrawn, doesn't eat right, is out of shape, has health issues. She loves him, but isn't physically attracted to him anymore. She can't figure out why he won't make an effort to get in shape. I don't know if the poly thing didn't work out like he'd originally hoped, or if he was coerced into it from the start, but either way, I suspect it's got something to do with his depression. He might feel cuckholded. I don't think she recognizes that.

I feel bad for him because he may be living through one of my own worst relationship fears. On the other hand, I may be projecting. He's completely aware of what's going on, agreed to it, and has made the decision to stay in it for years. Nothing I do will alter the dynamic between them. I have no interest in stealing her away from him.

Conrad is right. I'm attracted to the fire. Not just because I've been on ice, but because I recognize it as fire. It scares me because it burned me before. Twice. I'd like to figure out how to enjoy it's warmth without loosing control, jumping in, and incinerating myself. One of my issues, that my wife was right about, is that I can't express my own passion. I'm uncomfortable admitting that I'm a sexual creature. Here's a possible opportunity to work on that. Or maybe she's just a good ski companion.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

evolver said:


> Her husband definitely knows. I've met him. She and her husband had the poly talk years ago. It does bother me though. She is definitely in the driver's seat. *He seems depressed and withdrawn, doesn't eat right, is out of shape, has health issues. *She loves him, (No she does not!!!) but isn't physically attracted to him anymore. She can't figure out why he won't make an effort to get in shape. (Why the fvck should he if she is just going to go out and fvck around on him anyway???) I don't know if the poly thing didn't work out like he'd originally hoped, or if he was coerced into it from the start, but either way, I suspect it's got something to do with his depression. (Could he be depressed...oh...I dunno....because his wife is a wh0re?) *He might feel cuckholded. I don't think she recognizes that.* Ya think?!!!
> 
> I feel bad for him (Then don't do it!!!) because he may be living through one of my own worst relationship fears. (Yep!!!) On the other hand, I may be projecting (No. It sounds like common sense) . He's completely aware of what's going on, agreed to it (did he tell you this? Did you actually talk to him and he gave you his blessing with a handshake? Or did she just say that?) , and has made the decision to stay in it for years. Nothing I do will alter the dynamic between them. I have no interest in stealing her away from him (Look at your paragraph below. You're interested. Who do you think you are fooling?) .
> 
> Conrad is right. I'm attracted to the fire. Not just because I've been on ice, but because I recognize it as fire. It scares me because it burned me before. Twice. I'd like to figure out how to enjoy it's warmth without loosing control, jumping in, and incinerating myself. One of my issues, that my wife was right about, is that I can't express my own passion. I'm uncomfortable admitting that I'm a sexual creature. Here's a possible opportunity to work on that. Or maybe she's just a good ski companion.


Don't do it dude. You will hate yourself for it. Don't help be tha cause cause of pain to another man. How the hell is that going to help you? This woman is a vampire. 

If you need a piece of ass, call up an escort. 

Damn man....


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

I went back and added some more. I hope he doesn't go through with it.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

I've decided that nothing will happen. You can rest easy, Bandit.  Thinking back through our conversations, she isn't just looking for sex on the side. She wants the whole relationship deal. That's the flavor of "poly" she is. I'm still not convinced she's looking for that with me, but I have absolutely no desire to get mixed up in that anyway. It's flattering, but Poly is not my kink. Skiing will be the only physical activity that happens this weekend.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Just need to vent. Stbxw stopped by after work to sign last years taxes. Unlike last time, I was anxious about it all day. Kinda disappointed in myself about that. I thought I was more disconnected.

At first, she acted in a hurry and was all business. Then she started telling me about our cat (the one she took), how she's thinking of cutting all communication with her parents, how her friends are lying to her, how our mutual friend was only trying sleep with her and hasn't talked to her since she rejected him, and on and on and on about how hard life is now. She seems lonely. She hugged me three times, for a long time, took my hand, and was holding back tears the whole time. I was supportive, told her I feel for her, etc., but offered nothing about how my life has been and I didn't tear up at all. As she was walking out the door, she turned around and asked me how IC was going. I said a few words about insurance mix ups, but little more. 

I cried after she left. I imagine she cried too... But then I remember how differently she interprets and remembers everything, and I wonder how she'll twist this event in her head. I'm guessing that by tomorrow, I'll have said or done something horrible tonight.

I still love her, but I don't want to.

That is a lie.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> Just need to vent. Stbxw stopped by after work to sign last years taxes. Unlike last time, I was anxious about it all day. Kinda disappointed in myself about that. I thought I was more disconnected.
> 
> At first, she acted in a hurry and was all business. Then she started telling me about our cat (the one she took), how she's thinking of cutting all communication with her parents, how her friends are lying to her, how our mutual friend was only trying sleep with her and hasn't talked to her since she rejected him, and on and on and on about how hard life is now. She seems lonely. She hugged me three times, for a long time, took my hand, and was holding back tears the whole time. I was supportive, told her I feel for her, etc., but offered nothing about how my life has been and I didn't tear up at all. As she was walking out the door, she turned around and asked me how IC was going. I said a few words about insurance mix ups, but little more.
> 
> ...


evolver,

What do you want?


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

I've been thinking about this. The flippant answer is a time machine. I'd go back with everything I know now and do things differently. I'd see the signs more clearly and take more appropriate actions. I'd also realize that achieving your goals and being considered at the top of your field of study, buying your own house, and having a beautiful, smart, edgy woman fall in love with you, doesn't mean that your self esteem issues are taken care of. Those things can be lost way too easily.

The past two weeks have been rough. Insurance is giving me trouble with IC again. Now they claim to not cover my "diagnosis". I was house-bound with a bad flu last week, unable to work out, which has been my mood lifter. I canceled the ski trip, mainly due to flu, but also because I didn't want to be tempted (see last few posts for why). This weekend, I tried to go to a meetup group, but got lost on the way and missed it. It was in New Hope, PA, a town where STBXW and used to go for fun. I resolved to have fun on my own. I walked around the town, went into the shops that I wanted to go in, and had a nice al fresco lunch at an upscale place. It was a beautiful day. I didn't enjoy it at all. In fact, I had a lump in my throat as I walked back to the car to leave. I was glad to finally get home, and disappointed at how the day went.

She's coming by tonight to pick up a check for the last joint account that needed to be split. I'm not sure how I'm hoping it will go. I believe she submitted the divorce paperwork today. The mediator told me she planned to do that this week. She posted a poem on facebook about "saying good night" and "all the wishes that sink, making up our minds". Very emo. I hope she doesn't still think that "we" decided this. She decided this alone.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

Sounds like you're wallowing.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

You need to double-up your efforts man. 

Once the divorce agreement is signed, go totally dark on her. Block her phone, e-mails and texts. 

You might also want to casually let all your mutual friends know that this breakup was all her.


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## helolover (Aug 24, 2012)

evolver said:


> ...she posted a poem on facebook about "saying good night" and "all the wishes that sink, making up our minds". Very emo. I hope she doesn't still think that "we" decided this. She decided this alone.


Brother, you need to FB unfriend her tonight and block her. 

I concur with Conrad. You've taken a hit and now you're wallowing. You are completely stuck on this woman. You need to detach and let her go. 

She may have depression or PTSD, or whatever diagnosis caused her to up and walk away. This isn't your problem anymore. She can handle it. She can deal with it. 

Get busy living, Hoss. Listen to my friend Andy.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

She just left. Very different behavior this time. Upbeat, almost bubbly. Very light small talk about the cats, her furniture, and car insurance. Nothing deep. No attempts to touch me at all. No hugs. She mentioned something about a boyfriend. I didn't react at all, although it stung. I think I put on a happy mask. 

I might be wallowing, but I'm trying not to. Hopefully it's just because I've been sick and cooped up all week, and not the major backslide it feels like. I've been reading TAM all week, and finding myself getting mad at the pro-divorce threads. The ones where people say how much happier they are after divorce. I want to scream NO! Not everyone is happier after divorce! The truth is, I'd like to join their ranks, but I just can't see it yet. 

I'm probably not ready to date yet, but it's discouraging that I haven't even seen anyone I'd like to date. I get a lot of friend requests on Facebook due to my photography. Most are models or gogo dancers, or wanna-be model/gogo dancers. Mostly too young, too annoying, or too attached. I'm sure there's someone out there with my wife's good qualities, but I'm not even seeing them, much less meeting them.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> She just left. Very different behavior this time. Upbeat, almost bubbly. Very light small talk about the cats, her furniture, and car insurance. Nothing deep. No attempts to touch me at all. No hugs. She mentioned something about a boyfriend. I didn't react at all, although it stung. I think I put on a happy mask.
> 
> I might be wallowing, but I'm trying not to. Hopefully it's just because I've been sick and cooped up all week, and not the major backslide it feels like. I've been reading TAM all week, and finding myself getting mad at the pro-divorce threads. The ones where people say how much happier they are after divorce. I want to scream NO! Not everyone is happier after divorce! The truth is, I'd like to join their ranks, but I just can't see it yet.
> 
> I'm probably not ready to date yet, but it's discouraging that I haven't even seen anyone I'd like to date. I get a lot of friend requests on Facebook due to my photography. Most are models or gogo dancers, or wanna-be model/gogo dancers. Mostly too young, too annoying, or too attached. I'm sure there's someone out there with my wife's good qualities, but I'm not even seeing them, much less meeting them.


You still have a pulse.

The open marriage hottie indicates that.


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Evolver, like I said, keep contact with the ex to a minimum. You talk to her too much. She hurts you without thinking twice about it. 

Block her calls and go dark. Dark, dark, dark. There is absolutely no reason for you to talk to her now that she is gone. Let your lawyer talk to hers. That is the only contact you should have with her.

Take some time off work. Gas up the car, pack some camping equipment and go on a vision quest. Don't even plan it... just go. Go somewhere and get your head together. Give it time. 

Time is the only thing that heals this kind of wound. 

You picked a faulty, fvcked up mate. We all did. There are some really good women out there too who are not fvcked up like your WW. Remember that.


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## tom67 (Oct 2, 2012)

bandit.45 said:


> Evolver, like I said, keep contact with the ex to a minimum. You talk to her too much. She hurts you without thinking twice about it.
> 
> Block her calls and go dark. Dark, dark, dark. There is absolutely no reason for you to talk to her now that she is gone. Let your lawyer talk to hers. That is the only contact you should have with her.
> 
> ...


:iagree::iagree::iagree:


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Thanks for the encouragement everyone. I'm feeling MUCH better today. 

I actually rarely interact with her at all. I tend to post here when I do though, so it probably reads like I talk to her a lot. I should probably hide her on facebook, but we have so many interests in common, that it's the only way I can avoid showing up at the same places. Not ready for that yet.


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## Conrad (Aug 6, 2010)

evolver said:


> Thanks for the encouragement everyone. I'm feeling MUCH better today.
> 
> I actually rarely interact with her at all. I tend to post here when I do though, so it probably reads like I talk to her a lot. I should probably hide her on facebook, but we have so many interests in common, that it's the only way I can avoid showing up at the same places. Not ready for that yet.


Block her on Facebook.

Today


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

Conrad is right. FB is now a digital wet spot let her sleep on it alone.

What sports do you play?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

LongWalk said:


> Conrad is right. FB is now a digital wet spot let her sleep on it alone.
> 
> What sports do you play?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I unfollowed her today. No need to block, as she doesn't contact me through there anyway. Now I don't have to see her wistful postings accidentally and have it ruin my day. 

I'm not really a sports guy. I ski when I can afford it. I now weight-lift because it was suggested here and I have to say, it REALLY helps with mood. I love it. I've been following scoobysworkshop.com . I'm thinking of joining a gym, but right now I just lift at home. I hike sometimes. A friend of open-marriage-hotty said she would take me climbing, so I will try that if she follows through. No team sports or anything though. Any reason you ask?


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Hi all!

I got home from IC today and found a thick envelope in the mail. It was the divorce decree. I stand before you, a divorced man! What an unceremonious end. Oddly, I'm feeling fairly ambivalent about it. *shrug*

Maybe it's because I had a pretty good/active month. Maybe because I haven't gotten more than 2 brief texts from STB... Err.. I mean Ex-W since I last posted. Maybe it's because my IC agreed that I don't need to come back unless I want to (I made an appt for 1 month anyway). I still feel like this isn't what I wanted, but in a way, I'm glad it's done. 

I'm feeling really grateful toward all the people here, especially the ones who participated in my thread. I'm not sure what I would've done without you all. It occurred to me that some of you knew exactly how my story would go from my 1st post. Thanks for sticking with me anyway, lol! Don't take this as a goodbye. I still plan on checking in. Besides, I've read enough other threads to know that the story never really ends when you think it does. 

Time to evolve a little more...

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## bandit.45 (Feb 8, 2012)

Congratulations Evolver. Think of this day as the day of your rebirth. 

You only have the rest of your life ahead of you now, and without all that dead weight dragging you down, you can take steps to build the life you want.


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

Congratulations. You may not believe it but it gets better and better every month. Like learning a new language, you will learn to love yourself more and more.

In your early days in this thread I gave you some suggestions some of which I guess you followed. I hope they helped you.

It's time to relax and follow your curiosity now. Don't do much active thinking about your ex-wife. She will creep into your thoughts from time to time but the frequency should go down in the long term. Don't be alarmed if you have some bad days. It's normal and will fade away.

Traveling, exercise and testing attraction potentials are your best friends. Don't be shy! Go live the way you want to live. The right woman will come into your life when you least expect it


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## LongWalk (Apr 4, 2013)

You wrote very well to explain the attraction you had to your ex. Her BPD made her a constant challenge and you got absorbed in trying to cope with all the off the wall suspicions and accusations. Kafkaesque but in her person. She must have distorted the whole world for you.

Was the polyamorous woman a good skier? 

Conrad was permanently banned from TAM.


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## evolver (Dec 3, 2013)

Hi all! It's been a really long time since I posted an update. It's now 9 months since separation day, 7 months since my ex told me she wanted to divorce, and 2 months since I got the divorce decree. I thought I'd let you know how I'm doing. 

I've been keeping very busy, following the the suggestions I got from TAM, and working hard on rebuilding my social life. It's all been a great help, and I've had quite a bit of fun. Quite a bit of sadness too. Lots of ups and downs really. I haven't seen, heard from, or heard about the ex in months. It makes me sad to say, but that's a good thing and I'm thankful for it. 

I'm still good friends with "open marriage hottie", and that's been great. She's got a huge circle of friends, really interesting, quality people that I've met through her. One of whom, sent me on an emotional spin recently. A stunningly beautiful, smart, artsy redhead who expressed a lot of interest in me, and after running into her a few times, we planned a date. She seemed right up my alley. My confidence was through the roof! Sadly, she asked to reschedule because she got sick, then never responded to my suggested reschedule date. No idea why she ghosted me, but my confidence did take a hit. It made me realize just how much I still let my self esteem be dictated by others. I still have work to do. 

Sometimes I love having the house to myself, other times it feels really lonely here. Weekends are great, trying new things, socializing, etc. Weekdays are becoming routine though, and that's starting to bother me. One thing is for sure though. I will never again isolate myself in some misguided attempt to make life easier for someone else. That's a mistake I own completely.

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


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## synthetic (Jan 5, 2012)

> Weekdays are becoming routine though, and that's starting to bother me.


A sign of healing.


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