# Marriage and Mutual growth



## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

So, I have finished reading Women's Infidelity 2 : Breaking Out of Limbo. A very well written, very informative book about not only today's relationships but today's way of life, political changes etc. within the western world.

But as always something has confused me deeply. I give you a passage from the book:

_"Couples are continuing to get married without having a clear vision or purpose for their lives together; yet purpose is no longer built into marriage because people no longer need to stay together for survival. What this means is that many people have made, and are continuing to make, a commitment to stay together for no reason and to do nothing forever.

....

Today, many people are afraid to enter into a committed relationship because they don’t know how to make a relationship last. But that’s the very problem. People focus their attention on staying together when they should focus their attention on creating a great relationship instead.

Great relationships foster mutual growth and fulfillment. Great relationships serve to inspire, help and support each partner in discovering and following their passions and in fulfilling both an individual and a shared purpose. This is the transition that relationships today are making. The purpose of relationships is changing from survival to mutual growth and fulfillment. Many couples have arrived, and will continue to arrive, at the same relationship crossroads that you now face. The degree of pain and suffering they experience will depend on whether they confront the situation head on or choose to avoid it. Unfortunately, many people are choosing the painful route of avoidance, which means they are choosing to live in limbo instead of moving forward into a more passionate and purposeful life."_

So okay, sums up the change from marriage 1.0 to 2.0 very nicely. This is exactly what I constantly think about on the topic of marriage. Basically after a couple of years in the marriage, if you are a member of the middle class, you will probably be set financially. You won't be wealthy, but there won't be a problem of survival either. So if your only goals in marriage are getting married, having children and staying together, with no other reason whatsoever, you 'll be in for a rude awakening when you hit a very monotonous, unfulfilling marriage.

Okay, easy enough to understand up till here. But... what is exactly mutual growth and purposeful marriage? I have absolutely no idea of what a fulfilling, purposeful marriage can truly be. Is mutual growth taking cooking lessons together? Is it reading a book together? Wtf is it? I've been thinking about what it is, you know, in a non-abstract way, and I haven't come up with a solid answer.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

I guess it means both partners growing within the relationship. So not just in moving forward and growing as a person and partner, but both growing as people and partners together.

Many of the egs of relationships on this board do not display mutual growth and are unhealthy, unbalanced, toxic.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

Holland said:


> I guess it means both partners growing within the relationship. So not just in moving forward and growing as a person and partner, but both growing as people and partners together.


Okay now, isn't that a bit too abstract? How can growing be done together? I mean, I guess interests change, hobbies change, friends change, pant sizes change. But what changes happen in both people that can be considered as mutual growth? I basically don't think I myself won't be growing too much any more, minor changes may happen in the personality, but it's not like I am in my teens.

And there is the part about "purposeful and passionate marriage". I think "if you're gonna have kids, get married. If not, then don't." What other purpose can a marriage have?(Notice the book says a marriage's purpose shouldn't be just about staying together and having kids.) Yes I know, to be with your loved one forever etc. But every day, it seems more and more that "marriage" doesn't have any effect on staying together.(which is basically what the book is saying.)

I was a pretty marriage-minded person(in my country it's a bit hard not to be), but that book challenged my thoughts in such a way that I don't think it's exactly the right path any more.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> *Okay now, isn't that a bit too abstract? How can growing be done together? I mean, I guess interests change, hobbies change, friends change, pant sizes change. But what changes happen in both people that can be considered as mutual growth? I basically don't think I myself won't be growing too much any more, minor changes may happen in the personality, but it's not like I am in my teens.
> *
> And there is the part about "purposeful and passionate marriage". I think "if you're gonna have kids, get married. If not, then don't." What other purpose can a marriage have?(Notice the book says a marriage's purpose shouldn't be just about staying together and having kids.) Yes I know, to be with your loved one forever etc. But every day, it seems more and more that "marriage" doesn't have any effect on staying together.(which is basically what the book is saying.)
> 
> I was a pretty marriage-minded person(in my country it's a bit hard not to be), but that book challenged my thoughts in such a way that I don't think it's exactly the right path any more.


Growing can be done together by challenging each other, communicating, learning from and teaching each other.

"Mutual" means something that is shared by two or more people so to me "mutual growth" would be growth that is shared by the couple. Not necessarily growth in the same way as each other but growth in who each of them is becoming for the benefit of a positive union.

I don't think MG means hobbies etc but more the learning of life's lessons and growing as a person.

SO and I are different in many ways, similar in many ways. We teach each other and learn from each other continually. We challenge each others thinking in a way that is beneficial to our relationship. To me this is "mutual growth".

ETA I am mid 40's, he is in his 50's, growing as a person never stops. I look at my parents in their 70's and they are still learning and growing.


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Nirvana, where are you from?

I feel as though you might be making the answer to your question bigger than it needs to be. Even what you are doing now, reading a book and seeking for answers, is personal growth. Growth is what happens to you as you move through life. It's a 'tiny' process. It can have big effects, or not.

Do you have any activity, hobby or vocation that you feel compelled to do? That is your growth path. 

If you follow the pull towards that activity or set of activities, you'll be moving towards your life purpose, fulfilling it by living it. I think a good marriage is one that respects that there are two individuals in a marriage, and when they put their life purposes together, the result is more than the sum of the parts, a symbiosis. These couples, when they are seen together, have that certain 'shine.' 

It's tricky I think to find your path if you have been devoting all of your time to your marriage. But if you go back to your childhood and think about what it is you used to do if left to your own devices, you can get some idea of what it might be.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

Turkey. In here, it is deemed appropriate for people to go through their education(higher education isn't common unless middle or high class), get drafted(if the person is male), get a job(optionary for women), get married, have kids, visit your inlaws, have grandkids, die. Sort of a marriage 1.0.

Okay maybe I am putting a bit of a bad emphasis on it, it definitely works for a lot of people. But I am thinking of moving to USA or someplace else after I get my medical specialty training here. So it won't work for me. I always thought I wasn't the guy who wanted that kind of marriage, but turns out I was pretty undeviated from it.(as in I wanted kids and staying together etc, but I hadn't given much thought about the other aspects.)

And tbh the divorce and infidelity rates in western countries scare me a bit, I'd hate to live a life like "Alan" from "Two and a Half Men". So I decided to be informed about what I will be getting myself into before I actually go there, so as not to get into a culture shock.

Okay I see what you are getting at, basically what you're like before marriage, you shouldn't give up for the image of a husband. You should be adding new aspects to yourself, and trimming in places you feel unnecessary, and letting your spouse do the same and not let her get caught in an image of a wife, instead what she wants to be. Whether it be life experiences, hobbies, activities etc.
(the image stuff I got from the book, if we try to convey ourselves in the marriage as something we are not only to satisfy our partner and the societal norms, it will be draining and detoriorating to the marriage.)


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## Homemaker_Numero_Uno (Jan 18, 2011)

Yes. Be yourself, and don't try to force growth. Allow it to happen, as it will.

I don't think you're dealing with the effect of culture.
It's an age/time of life issue more than anything else.

All youth (loosely defined) feel oppressed by the choices available to them to 'fit in' to their communities. At some point, when you decide to honor yourself, you see that you are free to find your own fit in society and to help shape the future of it. That is, you come to the realization that you are an important and integral part of a dynamic, living, culture.


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## Rags (Aug 2, 2010)

I disagree with the premise. I think men and women are designed to be together.

'It is not good for man (& therefore by definition, woman) to be alone' - dress it up in whatever sociological/religious/whatever frippery you like - men and women seek eachother's company for long term relationships, and it is better for society when they do so.


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> Okay, easy enough to understand up till here. But... what is exactly mutual growth and purposeful marriage? I have absolutely no idea of what a fulfilling, purposeful marriage can truly be. Is mutual growth taking cooking lessons together? Is it reading a book together? Wtf is it? I've been thinking about what it is, you know, in a non-abstract way, and I haven't come up with a solid answer.


My husband and I are mutually growing together and it has NOTHING to do with hobbies. It has to do with inner growth being balanced, happier, centered, maturing, etc. That in turn leads us to look to each other as to the dynamic we have together aka are we recreating our parents unhealthy ways. If so we change it. It's looking at various aspects of our individuality and as a couple finding ways to improve.

And this isn't something we do daily it's just been a natural progression over our 21 years together. I've been the leader in this respect because I'm the one most interested in growth. My husband is happy to listen to my point of view because he knows I want to make things better and he's seen me improve myself. He doesn't want to be left behind.


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## Shoto1984 (Apr 11, 2009)

Nirvana you're growing by reading a book that is challenging you to think and evolve as a person. This conversation you're having could be an example of growing together. It seems the trick is to find someone who understands this and wants to be on the journey with you. So many people are basically the same people they were when they got out of high school or worse....but I digress.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

I too disagree with the premise.

Once you imbue a marriage with purpose, staying in the marriage becomes an act of fulfilling a contract. Either you're moving towards the purpose, or you're failing in the marriage.

Real life doesn't work that way, at least not for most of us. Life happens in unpredictable spurts and starts that can derail the most carefully laid plans for its future. The key to marriage, from my view, is to realize that it's a roller coaster. There will be glorious ups followed by gut-wrenching downs, but this is all an expected part of the ride. If you're not happy, is it really your spouse's fault? If the answer is yes, then perhaps you shouldn't be in your marriage. Most likely that answer is something else. A loving, growing marriage will help you find your path in life that is satisfying, allowing you to ride the peaks and valleys with the knowledge that it's better to be with someone you love than alone.

If a marriage has a purpose at all, it's that you give up a part of yourself to gain a greater life through your partnership. If you can put that on a scrap of paper, tape it to the refrigerator, and call it a goal, then have at it.

Modern western concepts of marriage have made it easy to forget that you signed up for good times and bad, so people bail during the bad. Then they marry again, and bail faster and in even greater numbers, without taking the time for the introspection that would tell them why they are 1) choosing bad spouses or 2) remain unwilling to do the heavy lifting of maintaining a multi-decade relationship with another human.

You'll see it play out on this board - someone comes in, writes three paragraphs about the purported sociopath to whom they are married, and the first response is "find a lawyer and dump him. I wouldn't put up with this". 

So marry a good person who believes not just in the hot, steamy, infatuation brand of pair-bonding, but the type with good integrity and a moral grounding who wants to grow with you in whatever form that takes. Then do your part and work on keeping it alive and vibrant - a task you seem to be well qualified for just by virtue of asking the question.


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## SimplyAmorous (Nov 25, 2009)

Shadow_Nirvana said:


> But as always something has confused me deeply. I give you a passage from the book:
> 
> "Couples are continuing to get married without having a clear vision or purpose for their lives together; yet purpose is no longer built into marriage because people no longer need to stay together for survival. What this means is that many people have made, and are continuing to make, a commitment to stay together for no reason and to do nothing forever.


This was never never never me or my husband's attitude when we planned & looked forward to marriage... It was forever , us together, we waited a long time & we had a perfect "peace" going in.  Compatibility  was on our side. 



> *Shadow_Nirvana said* : Great relationships foster mutual growth and fulfillment. Great relationships serve to inspire, help and support each partner in discovering and following their passions and in fulfilling both an individual and a shared purpose.


 You just described what I would call "*INTERdependence*" .... 

Explained like this >>


> *Interdependence* is being mutually dependent, or simply being dependent on each other . Two people in a healthy relationship are said to be interdependent. In contrast to existing alone, it is a voluntary recognition that “no man is an island,” and that we must co-inhabit the space in which we live.
> 
> Being an adult requires *compromise*,* sacrifice*, *acceptance*, *forgiveness*, and *honesty*.
> 
> ...





> *Shadow_Nirvana said *:This is the transition that relationships today are making. The purpose of relationships is changing from survival to mutual growth and fulfillment. Many couples have arrived, and will continue to arrive, at the same relationship crossroads that you now face. The degree of pain and suffering they experience will depend on whether they confront the situation head on or choose to avoid it. *Unfortunately, many people are choosing the painful route of* *avoidance*,* which means they are choosing to live in limbo instead of moving forward into a more passionate and purposeful life.*"


"Passive aggressiveness" destroys everything once beautiful & builds a slow growing resentment wall in addition. .. We all need to be on guard against Apathy as well >> 

A is for Apathy: What Happens when You Don't Care Anymore?  



> Apathy, unconcern, indifference, lack of interest, lack of emotion. It's what creeps into the marriage when one or both spouses aren't watchful.
> 
> *§* It happens when they allow the fire for each other to go out.
> 
> ...





> *Shadow_Nirvana said*:
> Okay, easy enough to understand up till here. But... what is exactly mutual growth and purposeful marriage? I have absolutely no idea of what a fulfilling, purposeful marriage can truly be. Is mutual growth taking cooking lessons together? Is it reading a book together? Wtf is it? I've been thinking about what it is, you know, in a non-abstract way, and I haven't come up with a solid answer.


I just feel it is sharing the same dreams, goals, it helps to have the same beliefs, VISION for the future..... do you both want to parent... or have a shared passion for another cause that children would hamper your lifestyle... is not 2 better than 1 in this life - no matter what it is? To have a helpmate by our side, cheering us on, holding our hand.. .I look at my husband as the "Wind beneath my Wings"... I have no desire to be alone in this world.. every good thing that has ever come into my life has been through this Union.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Sorry, there is no any basis for permanent relations nowadays. There is no mutual growth. Nobody knows what he would be interested in few years. Now it could be a PhD thesis in Physics few years later you could be interested in Biology and in a few decades your main interest would be wine producing. You can’t project your interests for a long term period. And any conversation with your partner about his/her long term interest would be basically wasted time. I believe that the best you can do as a partner is to provide an environment for your partner’s personal growth and grow yourself as you can, parallel or perpendicular it really doesn’t matter. Don’t chock your partner’s growth with a commitment to only certain number of things. 
But that is the same you are doing for friends. 
Note that you need many people around you, not just your spouse, for personal growth. 
That is why I don’t really see any basis for marriage except a good sex. The quote what you just cited leads to the same conclusion, but it looks like the author is afraid of it and desperately tries to find any, other than surviving, purpose. But it’s pathetic – come on, in your personal growth you can’t limit yourself with just one person. You always will share your interests with many others and the more you achieve the bigger the circle of the people that share your interests. The circle should be also open – some new people would come in, some would go out.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Holland said:


> Growing can be done together by challenging each other, communicating, learning from and teaching each other.
> 
> "Mutual" means something that is shared by two or more people so to me "mutual growth" would be growth that is shared by the couple. Not necessarily growth in the same way as each other but growth in who each of them is becoming for the benefit of a positive union.
> 
> ...


Come on! What you are saying is not exclusive for a couple. We grow with our teachers, colleagues, friends. We challenge them. Why would I need a husband to challenge? - Doesn’t make sense to me. There were teaches at University that I wanted to learn from and challenge, there were colleagues in my field I would like to challenge and learn from, but I don’t want sex with these people. LOL The only exclusive thing in marriage is - SEX.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Cletus, you slowly get back to surviving issue. Yes, you could for a couple to raise kids together if the environment is hostile enough for a single parent. But it is not about mutual growth then. The question is what If there is no goal that you couldn’t accomplish alone?


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

hekati said:


> Cletus, you slowly get back to surviving issue. Yes, you could for a couple to raise kids together if the environment is hostile enough for a single parent. But it is not about mutual growth then. The question is what If there is no goal that you couldn’t accomplish alone?


You won't catch me saying that marriage is necessary or required for anyone. I don't believe in a goal oriented marriage, and if you don't believe in marriage at all, then by all means, don't get married. I'm one of those who could probably live alone quite happily too, but marriage does have some benefits. We certainly don't seem to have come up with a better scheme for raising children.


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## firebelly (May 24, 2012)

Reading some of these posts I'm questioning the premise as well. I take "mutual growth" to mean two people who are each interested in self-improvement helping each other in their quest for self-improvement. But some people aren't really that interested in self-improvement or that of their partner's. So, what's in it for them?

At a very basic level monogomous partnership is a contract you enter into with another person about various things - sex, money, child rearing, household chores, etc and you enter into that contract because having another person to help you with those things is better than doing them by yourself IF you and the other person have similar ideas about those things and can communicate effectively about them. I don't think anything has changed about that. 

70% or so of divorces in the U.S. are initiated by women, and I think it's because women have a different expectation about what that contract should look like now and have a hard time negotiating with the men in their lives over it.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

hekati said:


> Come on! What you are saying is not exclusive for a couple. We grow with our teachers, colleagues, friends. We challenge them. Why would I need a husband to challenge? - Doesn’t make sense to me. There were teaches at University that I wanted to learn from and challenge, there were colleagues in my field I would like to challenge and learn from, but I don’t want sex with these people. LOL The only exclusive thing in marriage is - SEX.


IME the growth we do with our partner is very different to that we do in school or with our friends. I can only assume by your comments above that you have not experienced this first hand.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Holland said:


> IME the growth we do with our partner is very different to that we do in school or with our friends. I can only assume by your comments above that you have not experienced this first hand.


Ok, I didn’t. Can you elaborate it a lil bit? What exactly is growing there?


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

hekati said:


> Ok, I didn’t. Can you elaborate it a lil bit? What exactly is growing there?


Ok for eg my closest friends challenge me and I them, we have regular, long indepth discussions on life and our lives. Yes we grow from this but our relationships while becoming more solid and fun, do not actually change that much.

The discussions with my SO challenge me and him in a way that each of us grows as a person but our relationship also grows, deepens and becomes more bonding. It is this mutual growth that builds a stronger and stronger wall around our relationship and makes it even more exclusive from the outside world.


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## Shadow_Nirvana (Jan 1, 2013)

I don't think a relationship with a person of the other sex, whom you love, will fulfill the same needs as relationships with your teachers, friends etc etc.

I do thank everyone who is posting and will continue to post. Some of my confusion is passing.

About the marriage having a purpose. Maybe the purpose is fulfilling both of the spouse's needs. I know this basically feels like a given in marriage, but often times there is a sense frustration, unfulfilledness(is that even a word?) feeling that comes before divorces,affairs etc. I mean it's basically just so easy to fall into apathy, like simplyamorous said, and tale your spouse for granted. Also it is ,again, just so easy to think that your spouse is happy when he/she isn't when there isn't enough open communication and more than enough resentment, frustration hanging in the air that the unfulfilled spouse becomes passive aggressive.

That purpose makes everybody happy,and in turn, makes for a passionate marriage.

Also the male knowing some "Married Game" to understand the inner working of the female brain will do worlds of good too.

So what do you think, have I interpreted this correctly?


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## Mavash. (Jan 26, 2012)

firebelly said:


> But some people aren't really that interested in self-improvement or that of their partner's. So, what's in it for them?


I've sold my husband on the idea of self improvement because he's stood by and watched me grow. He's seen first hand how fabulous my personal life is now and he wants that for himself. He sees me easily stand up to people and he can't. Sees me taking time for myself guilt free and he can't. So yeah there is a lot in it for him.


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## coffee4me (Feb 6, 2013)

> About the marriage having a purpose. Maybe the purpose is fulfilling both of the spouse's needs. I know this basically feels like a given in marriage, but often times there is a sense frustration, unfulfilledness(is that even a word?) feeling that comes before divorces,affairs etc. I mean it's basically just so easy to fall into apathy, like simplyamorous said, and tale your spouse for granted. Also it is ,again, just so easy to think that your spouse is happy when he/she isn't when there isn't enough open communication and more than enough resentment, frustration hanging in the air that the unfulfilled spouse becomes passive aggressive.


This is all true. I think that many marriages start with a shared purpose, raising kids etc. Then they move into a different phase in life, I think part of the issue is that the purpose changes as we age and yet there still should be a shared purpose but it will be different through the decades. I've noticed this with some very long term happy marriages that their purpose and passion changed through 40+ years of marriage but it changed together not seperate. 

I think the other thing I noticed in these marriages is that although growth was mutual it wasn't simultaneous. These couples had give and take relationships they had to take turns being career driven or pursuing education because someone had to take care of the kids. However, they were patient and trusting that they would have their turn and it often took years for their needs to get top billing but they got their chance and were mutually supportive of eachother no matter what roles they were playing at the time. This is something I think is very difficult for people of the microwave (me now) generation to handle. But when I look at these couples married over 40+ years and happy, I see the benefits of patience and understanding that couples need to prioritize and yet find a way to make it equal over the years.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Well… I don’t see any difference in male/female brain. Some difference develops because of different environment. Because a child didn’t play with certain toys he or she didn’t develop certain skills etc. I notice that under similar circumstance males and females behave the same. In general the only thing you need is to understand another person’s needs. Not “her” or “his” just another person’s. For example wife needs money he wants to quit job. Conflict. If they could understand and take into account each other’s interests and have skills to survive alone they would find a compromise. If you can be self-sufficient then you always can give more opportunities and freedom to your partner. You could say – Ok, quit job, find yourself, my career is going good and I will focus on it and make more money. Something like that.
I still don’t know if there is any “special bond”. Good sex certainly creates a special bond to some degree but it is very sexual LOL bond. At certain points and in certain question there will be people that understand you much better than your spouse and that have similar interests. You could have certain bond with friends too. Basically if you take sex out of equation there is no special bonding. There is just the bond with another friend that is not special at all. 
I don’t believe in growing into some sort of Siamese twins. I don’t believe that just one particular person would ever understand you better than anyone else. I believe it is unhealthy if you form a sorta wall around your marriage. We have individuality that is unique, we need many people around to communicate and to share our ideas and goal and achievements. 
With a spouse definitely you could have a one common goal – kids. And you still will have it even if you will divorce. I believe that the really specific bond could be good sex and feelings that you are in love. I don’t know how long it lasts and could it be a long term bond.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

Hekati-

Are you now or have you ever been married? It sounds like you're posting from a position of never having had a spouse.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Cletus said:


> Hekati-
> 
> Are you now or have you ever been married? It sounds like you're posting from a position of never having had a spouse.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I am married for about 6 years.


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## Cletus (Apr 27, 2012)

hekati said:


> I am married for about 6 years.


Misread that one!


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

hekati said:


> I am married for about 6 years.


So you have been married for 6 years and have no special bond with your partner? The only exclusive part is the sex? He is simply on par with any of your friends or teachers?

Do you wish you had a strong bond with him? Do you try to build that?

I find it really interesting. Is this an arranged marriage?


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Holland said:


> So you have been married for 6 years and have no special bond with your partner? The only exclusive part is the sex? He is simply on par with any of your friends or teachers?
> 
> Do you wish you had a strong bond with him? Do you try to build that?
> 
> I find it really interesting. Is this an arranged marriage?


LOL Of cause it wasn’t arrange marriage, LOL. I was in love. He was my type, sex was good, I felt chemistry. Only once I had a better chemistry and it was with my ex bf, but other than that he is the best. The only problem I have now is my lingering sexual feelings to my ex bf. 
I don’t see how we could bond more. I really don’t understand what kind of bond? I take part in some of his activities. He tells me all his stories and problems. Sometimes maybe too much, sometimes he exaggerates his problems. And usually we can find a solution of his problems. I don’t need better bonding. What for? I have scientific interests that my coworkers share. And my work is a very essential part of my life. But I don’t want to have sex with any of my coworkers. They are not as sexy as my husband. At least for me LOL. They could be very sexy for their wives though LOL.

Ok, of cause there is some feelings for the person, like that you want to help, that you are upset then he is upset. But don’t you have the same feelings for your friends?


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

hekati said:


> LOL Of cause it wasn’t arrange marriage, LOL. I was in love. He was my type, sex was good, I felt chemistry. Only once I had a better chemistry and it was with my ex bf, but other than that he is the best. The only problem I have now is my lingering sexual feelings to my ex bf.
> I don’t see how we could bond more. I really don’t understand what kind of bond? I take part in some of his activities. He tells me all his stories and problems. Sometimes maybe too much, sometimes he exaggerates his problems. And usually we can find a solution of his problems. I don’t need better bonding. What for? I have scientific interests that my coworkers share. And my work is a very essential part of my life. But I don’t want to have sex with any of my coworkers. They are not as sexy as my husband. At least for me LOL. They could be very sexy for their wives though LOL.
> 
> *Ok, of cause there is some feelings for the person, like that you want to help, that you upset then he upsets. But don’t you have the same feelings for your friends?*


If you only have *some *feelings for your husband then I can see where you are coming from. Just having *some *feelings was where I was at when my marriage was coming to its end. Just having some feelings is not that bonding.



> But don't you have the same feelings for your friends?


No not even close. I love my friends and family but the bond with my partner is completely different.
He is the first person that I think of telling when something good or something bad happens. He is the person who's opinion I seek. The feelings I have for my friends and family are not even close to my feelings and love for him.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Holland said:


> If you only have *some *feelings for your husband then I can see where you are coming from. Just having *some *feelings was where I was at when my marriage was coming to its end. Just having some feelings is not that bonding.
> 
> 
> No not even close. I love my friends and family but the bond with my partner is completely different.
> He is the first person that I think of telling when something good or something bad happens. He *is the person who's opinion I seek.* The feelings I have for my friends and family are not even close to my feelings and love for him.


You can’t be serious. Let say I am working on some theory, design whatever… I am a physicist. He is a musician. He never heard about all the problems. And I will seek his opinion? Of cause NOT. But the guy which opinion I would seek doesn’t erase me sexually at all. I can’t marry him and I don’t want to marry him, but of cause with some new ideas I will go to him not to my husband.
My husband probably will first go with his music ideas to his musician friends that are males and he is heterosexual. He shares his musical ideas with me too of cause and asks me do I like it or not. But I am not an expert I am just a sorta groupie lol. 

I share some my ideas with him sometimes in some popular form. But he can’t give me any advice. And I don’t need my husband's advice. Even if he would be a physicist, he could be working in a different area, or he just could be wrong for this particular problem. And I usually share ideas with several coworkers and some give ne a good input on one projects another on other projects.
In communication, in helping each other, in understanding our marriage is not falling apart. It is just fine. The only danger to our marriage could be my sexual feelings .
What opinion you can seek from a husband? Where to put a new sofa? What to wear to a party? Actually my husband is pretty good at the last one. If I am confused he is really helpful usually.

Oh well, I guess you would say “too bad you don’t have other interests except where to put new sofa”. No… we have. I like to share my impression about a new movie, or for example I took him to any interesting place where I went because of my job (I sometimes go to conferences). If I had dinner in a restaurant that I really like with my colleagues I want to take him there too. But come on, I would do it to my friends too.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

hekati I am not talking about an opinion on career issues although in my case we do talk about my work in particular. I am an equities trader and he is in top level management for a large international company. So yes we do discuss business and equities in general.

What I am talking about in the context of this thread is I seek his opinion on life. Or if it is in a work context it is in generalities not specifics. Otherwise we would all be partnered with those following the same career path.

The more you post, the more it seems you do not have experience of a truly loving bond with a mate. That is fine but, I don't understand being with someone without the intensity of this bond but I accept that it suits many people.
I am a heart person when it comes to relationships, perhaps you lead from the head.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Holland said:


> hekati I am not talking about an opinion on career issues although in my case we do talk about my work in particular. I am an equities trader and he is in top level management for a large international company. So yes we do discuss business and equities in general.
> 
> What I am talking about in the context of this thread is I seek his opinion on life. Or if it is in a work context it is in generalities not specifics. Otherwise we would all be partnered with those following the same career path.
> 
> ...


You are right I am definitely not a heart person. When I have questions about “life”, I usually seek many opinions everywhere, and after listening them all, do what I think is right. I don’t understand how you can rely on just one opinion even a pretty confident one, unless you are seeking for sympathy not for opinion. My husband sometimes does it. He is a heart person. It is tough for me. But after I offer him several solutions of his problems I just shut up and listen, trying to show some sympathy. Well, I can’t call it “bonding”, I did it for my friends all the time too. Well I don’t have you type of bond and I don’t really need one. The advantage is that I also don’t have all the problems that people that need that type of bonding have. Actually I have great relations with my husband. I am trying to understand his needs and I am trying to give it to him. I never felt like he didn’t pay me enough attention. Literary, no problems with communication, bonding, understanding, support.


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## Holland (Aug 20, 2012)

hekati said:


> You are right I am definitely not a heart person. When I have questions about “life”, I usually seek many opinions everywhere, and after listening them all, do what I think is right. *I don’t understand how you can rely on just one opinion even a pretty confident one, unless you are seeking for sympathy not for opinion.* My husband sometimes does it. He is a heart person. It is tough for me. But after I offer him several solutions of his problems I just shut up and listen, trying to show some sympathy. Well, I can’t call it “bonding”, I did it for my friends all the time too. Well I don’t have you type of bond and I don’t really need one. The advantage is that I also don’t have all the problems that people that need that type of bonding have. Actually I have great relations with my husband. I am trying to understand his needs and I am trying to give it to him. I never felt like he didn’t pay me enough attention. Literary, no problems with communication, bonding, understanding, support.


Oh I never said his is the *only *opinion I seek. He just happens to be the person that holds the highest place in my heart (leaving my children out of the discussion) so he is therefore the person that is on my mind the most. He has a very high IQ and EQ and yes I value his opinion. But then I have a long list of others who's opinions i will also seek. My father is my mentor and my rock, i have very close relationships with my siblings and I have a very solid set of friends.

However the OP was about "mutual growth" within the context of a relationship. From that POV my partner is the person that I most often turn to. He is the one that I turn to when anything good or bad happens because he is the one I share myself and my life with above all others.


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## hekati (Jan 24, 2013)

Holland said:


> Oh I never said his is the *only *opinion I seek. He just happens to be the person that holds the highest place in my heart (leaving my children out of the discussion) so he is therefore the person that is on my mind the most. He has a very high IQ and EQ and yes I value his opinion. But then I have a long list of others who's opinions i will also seek. My father is my mentor and my rock, i have very close relationships with my siblings and I have a very solid set of friends.
> 
> However the OP was about "mutual growth" within the context of a relationship. From that POV my partner is the person that I most often turn to. He is the one that I turn to when anything good or bad happens because he is the one I share myself and my life with above all others.


LOL I hate the word “mentor” it has the overtone of something superior, an authority. Well... I question validity of any opinion, whatever it comes from, from my father, from my teachers, from my bosses. And most people that I work with like it because a good conversation with different opinions helps create something new and interesting. Well… I notice sometimes many women don’t have enough confidence. Maybe they had a father that was an authority and they feel like they need a husband with high IQ to substitute their father. I don’t have this problem. I am equally competing in this world with males and my father’s or my husband’s or even my most respected professor’s opinion is just another opinion. I don’t need a person that will always be there for me to give me an advice and wipe my tears. For me IQ has nothing to do with love, even EQ has very little to do with love. I don’t know really, they started to use the term ”EQ” recently and it is now everywhere spread like a disease but I doubt you actually can measure it. Sometimes it seems me the higher EQ the worse the relations are. LOL

Still in the contest of “mutual growth” it is unclear how it could be related to “the person that I most often turn to”. Well… I guess I tell my husband about good news and about the bad news. He usually is happy to hear my good news and he proud of my achievements. Sometimes he has his problems and needs my sympathy and the only thing he can say about my good news is “Oh, that’s good”. Bad news I usually have to tell him with already prepares plan B that would mitigate the damage so he wouldn’t panic because he has tendency to do it. That’s life, what if you came home with a great news and you husband had really tough day at work and maybe he really worries about some potential problems. What would you do? Celebrate your achievement or discuss his problems? Could be several solution depending on the people. As far as he is a guy with great IQ and EQ (LOL) I suspect that he will shove his problems deep inside till tomorrow and celebrate your achievements. Could be an opposite, you would forget about your great news and start discuss his problems trying to find a solution or at least just giving him a sympathy and some relaxation feelings. Could be that you would drink a glass of wine celebrating your achievement but immediately stat to discuss his problems. None of 3 scenarios are perfect and each of them is just fine depending on the couple. 
And it is sorta natural to share things first with the one you see every day. You come home with great news and you first will start calling to your friend in another town? No first you’ll tell it to your husband that is right there. But if your husband was on a business trip, you’d first tell it to the first person you got hold of. If your husband’s phone is busy and your friend answers it right away you’ll talk to a friend. 
Sometimes I share with my husband things that women share very rare with any male. He even advices me on makeup. All my live I was afraid to use much makeup to look unprofessional. And he was living in LA, performing his music in LA night clubs.


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