# Getting closer to a decision - and staying strong



## Struggling4ever

Well...after 11 long years of triggers and mind movies, my fog has lifted! After spending too many hours reading everyone's stories as well as their responses to mine, my head is clearer than it has been in a long time.

I now realize that my wife's actions were inexcusable in having an ongoing PA with the man who I not only thought was my best friend, but someone who had become a close family friend as well. It was also wrong for me to not be honest with her and tell her about my triggers and bad memories and how this has all affected me and changed who I am. 

We got bad advice from a MC who said I needed to take blame, and I know that I also shifted all of the rest of the blame to him for "manipulating her". This was how I survived and moved on. She didn't do this to me, it was him and my actions? I loved her and my family and was willing to do whatever to keep it together and show our friends as well as this OM POS that I won and we would be fine, maybe even better than b4?

I believe the events that transpired during the affair as well as the time leading up to D-day put me into shock and I was never allowed to deal with my anger. I went on a vacation with this X BF POS, I came home and bought her a new ring and apologized for not being more supportive of her, and I basically renewed my vows as I gave her the ring. At this time she could have chose to call it off. Instead she went away with him and 2 of her sisters on a cruise that he paid for, and she accepted more expensive jewelry, and I found out by calling the ship to send her flowers. He flew home from the next port and she called me crying and talked of not being able to face me and she thought about jumping ship. I had to deal with worrying about her, as well as my anger, hurt, shock, etc...for days before seeing her again!

Yes, we had problems in our marriage but she could have chose us....at any time during this horrid affair she could have called it off and chose us, but it only ended because they were caught!

So this is where I am. I have had 11 long years since then with many good times and memories. I'm thankful my kids were able to grow up and stay in our house. I'm thankful my Mom had me as well as my wife there for her until the day she died as my wife was a loving and caring daughter in law to her. But I am ashamed that I was not honest about my feelings and kept them hidden often hurting inside and lashing out in anger at her for what probably seemed like no reason. 

We have had ongoing problems in the bedroom because pre D-day it was all about making her feel good and that made me feel good...Post D-day it has been a release and although she enjoys sex, I was just going through the motions trying to get through it and things often didn't work as well causing more triggers and self-esteem issues for me. She has always been good about it and understanding but I could see the disappointment in her eyes.

I am starting my own therapy next week but I really think I will need to move on and I am sad. At some point something died? Sure I've always said I trust her and I really don't believe she's done anything since...but I didn't know or think she would then so??? Since the fog lifted, I have figured out that I was probably in shock, and probably had/have post traumatic stress disorder. 

I now realize I have been going through the motions and living life...but not truely happy and alive! Sure I've had some great times, but I have not felt happy for a long time, maybe even since b4 the affair and that probably contributed? It doesn't matter...late mid-life crisis (I'm 52), reality check, facing my own mortality...whatever, I need to be alone for awhile and find my happiness. 

I feel bad and guilty but In have done for everyone else my entire life and I need time for me. I am hoping my wife can stay in the house (at least for now) and she says she will wait until I decide because she wants me to be happy but she chooses me. I wish she would have felt that way when the affair started...I owe this to myself! Updates to follow.....:scratchhead:


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## zsu234

I think you are doing the right thing. Good luck Friend!


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## warlock07

I think separation is the fair for both of you


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## Shaggy

I think your priority should only be you at this point. She lost the right and privilege of being with you when she cheated, but doubly do when she kept him around and then went on the cruise.

She deserves to be alone for the rest of time and a day.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## bandit.45

I feel glad and sad for you and your wife. I think your wife should thank you that you gave her 11 more years than she deserved. A separation will do you good.


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## 52flower

Our divorce was finalized a year ago. Similarly, after claiming he would never cheat & leave me again, he did with a newer younger version (they are still together 2+ years). The reality that he knowingly chose to put me through such painful betrayal still catches me off guard and I have to admit, makes my heart hurt. I understand some people consistently put their needs first but it's hard to understand how they can do so when they know the anguish & heartache they are causing. I suppose they are just skillful at turning away from it as if it's not there.


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## sammy3

Oh struggling4ever, 

You owe it to yourself to start living, and once you do , you may find things look a whole lot better than you ever imagined ...

11 years... wow! no one can ever say you didn't try ....

~sammy


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## Struggling4ever

Shaggy said:


> I think your priority should only be you at this point. She lost the right and privilege of being with you when she cheated, but doubly do when she kept him around and then went on the cruise.
> 
> She deserves to be alone for the rest of time and a day.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


Yeah,,,only if I was bitter and vengeful.... but I'm not. I actually feel she deserves to be with someone who worships the ground she walks on...and I believe she learned from her betrayal and it wouldn't happen again..I just can't live with the triggers and memories....she has been very supportive.


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## 2xloser

If you had it to do over again, would you stay those 11 years, or wish you had moved on to this stage 11 years ago?

I ask because I am 9+ months out and recognizing that while I wish for R, Idon't think I have it in me to get past her transgressions - the memories will haunt me forever. I could stay and have a 'decent' life, we can get along just fine, she does not want to split and it would benefit our 7 yr old son for me to stay.

But I am pretty confident that once he is grown and out, I'd arrive at where you are now. Something is missing, it's been removed (complete faith/trust/belief in her & us) and cannot be replaced. 

So I wonder which you feel is the right path based on your experience here?


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## Struggling4ever

2xloser said:


> If you had it to do over again, would you stay those 11 years, or wish you had moved on to this stage 11 years ago?
> 
> I ask because I am 9+ months out and recognizing that while I wish for R, Idon't think I have it in me to get past her transgressions - the memories will haunt me forever. I could stay and have a 'decent' life, we can get along just fine, she does not want to split and it would benefit our 7 yr old son for me to stay.
> 
> But I am pretty confident that once he is grown and out, I'd arrive at where you are now. Something is missing, it's been removed (complete faith/trust/belief in her & us) and cannot be replaced.
> 
> So I wonder which you feel is the right path based on your experience here?


I can't tell you what you should do, and I find it hard to answer what I should have done? In my case I still had 2 teenage boys at home, we worked together in a small business, did everything together and I think it would have been too hard at the time. Neither of us could have made it financially alone. She agreed to no contact and therapy, and we somehow moved forward?

Knowing what I know now...I would have found a way to leave if I could have a do over. We still get along great, she's fun, attractive, and I believe faithful. But unfortunately I have never recovered in the bedroom. I honestly trust her sexually but I always doubt her or second guess her on even the smallest things, and I have an inner anger so I sometimes am short or snap at her without good cause. I know the triggers and memories will eventually fade again, but the damage is already done and it can't be changed. No one in a relationship should have to put up with their partner having sex with someone else for any reason. I can understand how EA's can happen, but before it goes physical, you should talk or leave.

About 3 weeks ago, I moved out of the bedroom, we plan on getting finances in order and selling the house, so in time we will at least be seperated. I know I need to dismantle what we had before I can even think about continuing, but it's hard for me to pull the trigger based on what happened so many years ago. It doesn't seem fair to her, but then it wasn't fair to me???


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## 2xloser

Yes it's ironic that "affair" has the word "fair" in it at all.

I totally understand that you couldn't possibly tell me what to do, and I shouldn't have asked it that way -- but thanks for your insight; much appreciated. 

And I am sorry for your pain. I completely get it. Good luck to you.


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## Halien

Struggling,

Your situation is heartbreaking, and a man who can still look back on all the pain and still find compassion for his wife is a truly incredible person. I will look forward to your updates, and I hope you can find peace of mind above all as you go through this.


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## Struggling4ever

Halien said:


> Struggling,
> 
> Your situation is heartbreaking, and a man who can still look back on all the pain and still find compassion for his wife is a truly incredible person. I will look forward to your updates, and I hope you can find peace of mind above all as you go through this.


Thank you
I truly don't know how I did it, I know why I did it. I always thought we were "soulmates" and my 2 sons were the same age as my younger brothers were when my parents were divorced and it really affected them. I thought I should teach them that you can work through anything. Add that to the fact that the OM was trying to buy his way into my family for quite some time and my pride wouldn't let him win. 

I used to be that guy that would hand write a card or try to find the one that expressed where my heart was at. We used to talk about being that old couple on a park bench. That part of me left with the affair. I now have a hard time finding a card cause it can't talk about forever, and I see the old couple on the park bench and I get angry....it's a "trigger". I was recently at a funeral where a young relative died of a drug overdose. His girlfriend who was there with their 6 month old baby had the pastor read a letter she wrote. She said "we talked of growing old together"...I'm sitting in a funeral and I wanted to hit the chair in front of me! I need to let it all go!

I look back now and think about how horrid her affair was and it kills me...As we have talked about it I have broke down as if it happened yesterday and the memories are vivid! I have the guilt of begging her to stay (wow - just typing that line makes me wonder where my head was) and we have had some good memories, but I was never honest. The phrase you have to be honest with yourself opened this up for me... Once I was and my eyes opened up, I was forever changed. 

I don't believe I can stay...I can't keep having the triggers and I feel I need a clean slate...and she doesn't know it yet but I believe she deserves better too. Everyone deserves to have someone who loves them, admires them, trust them, and has passion for them. We lost parts of that long ago....
Thanks again, but for now, it has to be all about me....


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## Mamatomany

Struggling4ever said:


> I look back now and think about how horrid her affair was and it kills me...As we have talked about it I have broke down as if it happened yesterday and the memories are vivid! I have the guilt of begging her to stay (wow - just typing that line makes me wonder where my head was) and we have had some good memories, but I was never honest. The phrase you have to be honest with yourself opened this up for me... Once I was and my eyes opened up, I was forever changed.
> 
> I don't believe I can stay...I can't keep having the triggers and I feel I need a clean slate...and she doesn't know it yet but I believe she deserves better too. Everyone deserves to have someone who loves them, admires them, trust them, and has passion for them. We lost parts of that long ago....
> Thanks again, but for now, it has to be all about me....


Struggling,
Have you been to IC or MC? 

I know about triggers (as does my H), trust issues, etc but I hear time helps w/ the pain and less mind movies etc. You sound like you still have so many feelings for your wife that starting over could be possible w/ help if you both wanted it. I have kids and have seen how kids development/spirit are influenced by such a change. 

I don't know if there is such a thing as a clean slate even w/ someone new.


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## 2xloser

Read his first post/full thread, mama... Struggling's been noble and started over 11 years ago.


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## Mamatomany

2xloser said:


> Read his first post/full thread, mama... Struggling's been noble and started over 11 years ago.


I missed the therapy bit... earlier didn't see it spelled out. It just breaks my heart(easily done these days) that he sounds so loving when talking about her but wants to still end it. 

I hope you find answers that you are looking for in therapy.


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## Struggling4ever

Mamatomany said:


> Struggling,
> Have you been to IC or MC?
> 
> I know about triggers (as does my H), trust issues, etc but I hear time helps w/ the pain and less mind movies etc. You sound like you still have so many feelings for your wife that starting over could be possible w/ help if you both wanted it. I have kids and have seen how kids development/spirit are influenced by such a change.
> 
> *I don't know if there is such a thing as a clean slate even w/ someone new*.


It was a bad MC who told me years ago that in order to make it work, I had to take some blame, I needed to realize that she was manipulated (or maybe that was my way to deal with it), and we needed to move forward never bringing it up again cause every time I do it's like twisting a knife in her, killing her self esteem. I have tried to build her up my entire adult life and there are still issues. She has tried a therapist twice...went 1 or 2 times and didn't like it. We were taught to rug sweep and after this long it's there...the worst thing for me is seriously that we have the same name...I am my own trigger?
I trust her, she doesn't trust me! I want help for me...no MC.
I crossed that bridge too long ago!
As far as the clean slate, that's where I definitely disagree! I always say I judge people by how they are from the time I meet them. I don't like gossip or here say and all people can change. (including my wife). That being said, if I was ever to start with someone new, sure there would be issues, but they would be our issues. It would be a clean slate because whomever this might be, they haven't cheated on me before! I'm sorry but that's how my thought process works and I think seperation is best for both of us right now.


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## Struggling4ever

A six month vacation from her and marriage could make me want to get a D, or a fresh start depending where my mind and heart is at? But I sense that she is growing bitter again, and she will only hold the blame so long and then her self defense kicks in and it has to be about someone else...I might be wrong but we've been on a few of these "carnival rides" together....Time to leave the circus!


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## Mamatomany

Struggling4ever said:


> A six month vacation from her and marriage could make me want to get a D, or a fresh start depending where my mind and heart is at? But I sense that she is growing bitter again, and she will only hold the blame so long and then her self defense kicks in and it has to be about someone else...I might be wrong but we've been on a few of these "carnival rides" together....Time to leave the circus!


Ah I remember you mentioning now about the bad MC experience, maybe in a different thread? So you have a timeline in mind and not totally decided on D or R yet, just leaning toward D? 

I am sure her bitterness comes and goes (mine does). H and I have trust issues but he has played on that this time around and really jerked me around, but I am willing to work when/if he is.

From the threads you have written (and I have read some) I do like how you talk about her... you are a true gentleman when you talk about her. 

There were a couple of threads that got heated and I had to stop reading... ppl were getting mean/testy (I got enough of that in real life).


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## working_together

It,s hard to repair the damage caaused by an affair, not many couples can move forward after such devestation.

Some people really never stop having those crazy triggers and mind movies,everything is as fresh as it happened yesterday.

You may just need some space. To sort out all those emotions that you r going through, i do think aseparation might help figure out if you want to move forward with or without her.

Good luck


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## Struggling4ever

Mamatomany said:


> From the threads you have written (and I have read some) I do like how you talk about her... you are a true gentleman when you talk about her.
> 
> There were a couple of threads that got heated and I had to stop reading... ppl were getting mean/testy (I got enough of that in real life).


I am sorry for all you are going through as well and thank you for your kind words!

I deleted my original 2 threads because she was reading them and people were being too harsh and judgmental (in my opinion). I should have left them though...if we all thought the same way I guess this would be a pretty boring world? I have grown a lot in recent years and ever since I told her that the triggers and memories are still bothering me and are the cause of a lot of my "issues". we have been through many stages. 

Right now I keep getting angry thinking how did I ever accept this in the first place? She goes from being nice and supportive to pulling away, trying to be positive and trying to do her own thing. I still feel like she doesn't want me to do my own thing and gets upset with me? Last weekend I went to a big Motorcycle show with my son and she said she had wanted to go (we always went together in past years), so the next night I took her and we stopped at a blues club and watched a friends band for awhile on the way home (I had to leave when I saw a guy who reminded me of the OM). The last 2 days she has been distant and she went to our regular place dancing last night and never said would you like to come with? So she went out, I stayed home and set up the spare bedroom...but yet I still feel uncomfortable leaving to go out and not asking her "Do you wanna go"? I am being firm about needing time and space to get my head clear but I am still sending and getting mixed signals.....oh and the therapist I picked out....terrible about returning calls or e-mails, if I was depressed, I'd be in trouble - lol....can't anything go smooth for me?


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## Struggling4ever

working_together said:


> You may just need some space. To sort out all those emotions that you r going through, i do think aseparation might help figure out if you want to move forward with or without her.
> 
> Good luck


Thank you....


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## the guy

I think your just in another stage, and things will go smooth soon enough.
I think poeple start to put up a defence when they see a relationship come to an end. Earlier you said she was supportive, but I think the last few weeks have set in and your wife has come to realize the end is near for the marriage.
IMHO you can expect the mixed signals, what the both of you are going through is some mixed up crap. You are moving on with out her, she my understand why, but the fact that you are moving on period is just simply tough.

Breaking up is hard to do!

So, as hard as it is *now* for both of you....it is just a stage and life will go on. 

I think the living sitch (seperate rooms) is unhealthy. Your not making a clean break here, but prolonging the missery by staying in the same home. I think you take the big step and move now, it my clean up some of the emotional pain, and give you the *real* space you need.

I understand your deal, I've read your other threads, but you want space, but still stay? It sound like you can have healthy a relationship with her in the future, but you just live to damb close to each other!

Move already!!!!!!


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## bandit.45

I think time apart will do them both good. I think they should go a couple of weeks NC, then get together at a neutral location, have dinner, talk, go to a movie. As long as they maintain some sporadic contact they can keep tabs on each other as they go along. They also need to stay celibate. Bringing others into the mess will only confuse the situation.


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## sammy3

oh struggling ... 

you are experiencing what so many of us, sorta newbie, are fearing for our future ... 

thank you though for being brave enough to share...

~sammy


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## cledus_snow

it sounds as if your wife has already started to move on without you, judging by her current attitude. you should start doing the same.

she seems not to want to own-up to her misdeeds.

by the way, 52 is not old. there's still plenty of gas left in the tank.


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## Struggling4ever

cledus_snow said:


> it sounds as if your wife has already started to move on without you, judging by her current attitude. you should start doing the same.
> 
> she seems not to want to own-up to her misdeeds.
> 
> by the way, 52 is not old. there's still plenty of gas left in the tank.


No...I think she is just not sure how to deal with my uncertainty? She knows I am not happy and i want space right now. This is just all so foreign to us as we have always done everything together. She will send me "sweet" text messages and I will respond vague or somewhat cold as I am not sure what I want and I won't lead her on anymore or just tell her what she wants to hear. She knows she did wrong and is sorry but she says "
there is nothing I can do to change it and I have spent the last 11 years trying to prove my love to you, if you can't be with me I need to accept that, you have a right to be happy."

Her text to me the other night said "This is your life, do what you want and don't be influenced by me anymore....just let me go and live. Be you. I love you and I am letting go. Have a good night. "


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## cledus_snow

> Her text to me the other night said "This is your life, do what you want and don't be influenced by me anymore....just let me go and live. Be you. *I love you and I am letting go.* Have a good night. "


how merciful of her.

she's moving on....so should you.


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## bandit.45

Yep. :iagree:


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## Catherine602

I think you are doing the best thing for you and your wife. She sounds like she matured and has been a good wife. That is probably why you are hesitant and feel guilty. 

What is guilt - a feeling of having failed an obligation. Is that true? No it cannot be. You were a loyal husband from start to end. There are some things that your wife did not do that she should have done. Like come clean about what happened when she knew that you needed to know, getting rid of the detritus from the OM. 

She did something that was so massively wrong that even though it is delayed, she suffers the consequences as we all do. She could have helped you deal with these trigger for 11 yrs but she did not. She atoned partially be being a good wife for the period after the affair but it was not enough for you. 

I think you will do well. You are a wonderfully committed and loving man. It is time you had someone to match your capacity for love. Just chose carefully and don't become emotionally attached until your have dated at lest 10 women. You have to decide what kind of woman is best for you.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Struggling4ever

Well I have not posted for 11 days, time for an update. I finally went in for IC on Tuesday night and it went pretty well. It was supposed to be an initial 50 minute free consultation, but I was her last appointment and I got there at 7:30 pm (it was supposed to be 7 pm , but I got lost as it was out of my area, I made a wrong turn and was 30 minutes late!) I called, she waited for me and we talked until 9:45! I obviously had a lot to let out! I kept saying if you need me to leave it's ok, and she said no it's fine you are my last appointment and you were more than patient waiting to schedule and you drove so far (25-30 minutes)...it's fine. I ended up telling her that although it was a free initial consultation, I wanted to pay for 1 session as I was there so long. She said well thank you, and I said I've been self-employed, all you have to sell is your knowledge and your time so it's ok...so I feel it went well and I go back next Tuesday.

One thing I asked her was why this was so fresh now after all these years? I said on the way driving out I was thinking I wished I had come a while ago when the pain and anger was more fresh. On the way up I seriously felt ok? Well as soon as I started talking about it, my voice trembled, my eyes welled up, and I wasn't ok at all. She said let it out it's been in there a long time! Her answer to my question was that the brain is very complex and it often buries traumatic memories or events sometimes forever, and sometimes just until a time when we are more capable of dealing with things. She said you have probably matured and grown a lot during these years, events happened that led up to all this and now it's finally coming out and that's good. That made perfect sense to me? Kind of like when my daughter was in a bad car accident and remembered before the accident, and the ride to the hospital, but everything during the accident was gone...same with my son who suffered temporary amnesia after a bicycle accident so yes, the brain is a complex thing for sure. Anyway, I got out most of my story as well as how I have been passive-aggressive since being a child and dealing with the affair this time around is the first time I have been assertive and have stood up for myself pretty much ever. I told her of this forum and she was glad to know I was on here and said it is healthy to find I'm not alone...although I am somewhat alone in my extended delayed reaction to finally admitting to how this has affected me and changed who I am!

After the session my wife wanted to know how it went and I was somewhat vague....I have been and I have tried to keep distance without being an ass. The last time we went dancing (basically her line dancing and me having a beer talking with a few people and maybe getting out there for a few), I bought her, myself, and 2 girls (regulars that she dances with) a beer. It started because someone mentioned a Blue Moon with an orange slice, one girl said I don't know if I'd like that, the other said oh they are very good! I said if you want to try it I will buy the first round. I included myself, both girls, and my wife....Although this is somewhat common and friends are always buying a round for others (including us)...because 1 of the girls is somewhat attractive and therefore threatening to my wife...I could tell she was upset. Again, the old me would have said I'm sorry or I won't do it again, or maybe not even do it in the first place? But I knew I was doing nothing wrong so I wasn't gonna let it bother me. She didn't say anything to me, but she wrote her thoughts out on a paper and left it where I would see it talking about how she was not happy about me buying drinks for other girls? Again, we as well as others have bought drinks before, it wasn't that I did it, it was that she felt threatened... I get it, but the rules only changed, not because I did it, but because of who it was. Yet she talks to this girl, hugs her, acts friendly with her and I'm not supposed to say hi? After it came out that she was upset, I finally said I will no longer go there unless you give me a list of who I can talk to and who I can't. I said I have been standing there talking with 1 of your friends before and you walk away to dance or go outside and have come back in and you've gotten mad 2 other times before over 2 other girls (all her friends), but then other times you're fine? I don't get it but it is not fun for me to stand there by myseld drinking a beer watching everyone have fun and actually have people ask me "are you ok?" or "you could at least smile", so I will stay home as I know that is your fun and I don't want to ruin it. She says no that's not what I want and I need to learn from my insecurities. I tell her I am still tired of not being trusted after giving her trust....I have a pretty good track record! She is on her way home to talk but I will continue this later...and trust me...the insanity continues, and yes...still sleeping in an adjacent room and she is not happy about that either!


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## bandit.45

Its amazing how she was able to completely disengage her empathy for you when she was repeatedly having sex with your friend, and now that you are doing a 180 on her she all of a sudden has to have you under her thumb when you are around other women, even ones she knows?

Striking how selfish and how little self esteem your wife has. Why you are sticking around is beyond me. When are you going to get your own place?


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## Struggling4ever

Ok...well after the above night I said I will no longer go there... I stopped in again last Wednesday (that's a night all her/our friends are there with free lessons and no cover). I was just having a drink that a friend (guy) bought me and planned on staying for an hour or so. My wife was dancing having a good time and I decided to do a walk around the bar to see if any friends that I knew might be there. My older son has many friends that go to this place as well and they often like to say hi. As I walk around the corner I see the woman (one of them anyway) that apparently my wife feels threatened by. I said hi and said I haven't been here in awhile, the last time was a week and a half ago when we had the Blue Moons...she said yeah I've been working a lot that was the last time I was here too. I said well have a good night, and I proceeded to walk around the outer perimeter of the dance floor and eventually made my way back where I started. I had 1 more drink and went home. Nothing more was said that night...

A couple nights later I had shown my wife and son a new software update on their phones and they started the update. I was playing guitar in the living room and also checking my phone and my wife was having problems with the download for her update and was mumbling about it and I stopped and went in to help. I then went back in to the living room and she was again having a problem. I actually started to get irritated and I yelled give me a minute, I'm checking my phone! The calm finally ended and she went off about me being on my phone and me enjoying my space, and me having my private life.etc, etc, etc... She actually was upset enough she said F you (which doesn't often happen) and I said it back and I retreated upstairs.

That night as I was getting ready for bed (in my room), she finally came in and unloaded on me...She said I was sneaking around and I'm a cheater as well, she called me a thief (because of a few items I bought home from work that were being discarded, as well as something that had been left there by my friend who had quit and moved away), she called me manipulative, a liar....and this went on and on! She also then brought up last Wednesday when we we were at the "dancehall/saloon" and she said I saw how you managed to sneak around the corner to talk to #@**#, I watched you! You thought cause I was dancing I wouldn't notice but you went around the corner, talked to her, and then walked around the entire bar thinking I wouldn't notice! I said, wow...you actually were watching me the entire time weren't you? I told her I did nothing wrong and that although she claims to not trust the "girls", in reality she doesn't trust me, because if she did they would be a non-issue! I tried to reason and she would say - that's right, you are mr. perfect who never does anything wrong, you have an answer for everything! I also tried to explain about the equipment and said I could have done all that behind her back too if I was trying to be sneaky or do something wrong, but no it was all in the open, we went together to a gathering of friends and I dropped it off...(we even took pictures) so again...I always thought everything was ok and now I find she was harboring resentment over that as well, and now I am a thief too?!! 

Because of her verbal assault, I almost left again that night but I really have nowhere to go and right now we have no extra money! I stayed, she eventually went to sleep and we have been back to not saying much to each other. We started to talk yesterday but she actually started in about how she thought she was ok with the past situation with my friend from work who moved away over 6 months ago, but apparently she's not and was making all of our issues about me again! I said you are just not ok with me in general and it all comes down to you did me wrong big time...I forgave you and gave you trust, and you can't/don't trust me! I then re-enforced that I will not allow her to make our problems about me and what she believes I've done, this is about what happened in the past and I am finally dealing with it whether she can accept it or not... I had plans to go out on my own last night but a mutual friend stopped over to help my son with a "project bike" and we all just hung out at home and then to bed...alone. Today is a new day!


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## Struggling4ever

bandit.45 said:


> Its amazing how she was able to completely disengage her empathy for you when she was repeatedly having sex with your friend, and now that you are doing a 180 on her she all of a sudden has to have you under her thumb when you are around other women, even ones she knows?
> 
> Striking how selfish and how little self esteem your wife has. Why you are sticking around is beyond me. When are you going to get your own place?


Thanks for your comments Bandit!
As of right now I am going to continue the IC, I am thinking I need to write up an "in house separation" agreement where we agree to move towards getting our financial problems taken care of, get projects done at home, and eventually sell the house. I think we should keep contact/talk to a minimum. I would include maybe a once a week get together for a coffee, drink, or lunch/dinner and discuss things. I feel we should both keep our space, and the one main rule would be if either of us has any type of contact with anyone else, we are honest about it and agree to move on...That would be a "deal breaker" for sure! I have a friend who has an extra room and has said it is mine if I want it...no charge. He is a friend I have helped out in the past and his house is paid for. I'm not crazy about his lifestyle but it would get me away for awhile. he was staying down south for the winter and he's coming back mid April....I'll see how things go until then. I'm hoping I can use all this for motivation to get moving on the things I need to get done here...so far, motivation has not worked.... it's hard to focus!


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## bandit.45

She's losing her control over you and it is driving her batty.

A month ago it seems she was all crying and weeping and wailing over what she had done. This was another way of her controlling you. Now she's getting vindictive. 

The more you describe your wife and her escalating behavior, the darker an image I have of her.

In-house separations don't work. They just don't. Read up on all the threads on TAM regarding this. 

If I were you I would take your friend's offer to use his room and move out for a while. The only downside is she would probably change the locks and file divorce due to abandonment. I could see your wife being nasty in a divorcee situation.


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## Struggling4ever

bandit.45 said:


> She's losing her control over you and it is driving her batty.
> 
> A month ago it seems she was all crying and weeping and wailing over what she had done. This was another way of her controlling you. Now she's getting vindictive.
> 
> The more you describe your wife and her escalating behavior, the darker an image I have of her.
> 
> In-house separations don't work. They just don't. Read up on all the threads on TAM regarding this.
> 
> If I were you I would take your friend's offer to use his room and move out for a while. The only downside is she would probably change the locks and file divorce due to abandonment. I could see your wife being nasty in a divorcee situation.


I agree on the in house separation advice, but my friend is not back for about 1 month so I will just try to keep my space as much as possible...like I've said, I need to use the time wisely and get productive on taking care of our home as well as financial issues. I can't help but feel bad for her...We/I is all she has know since she was 17 years old (except for the affair part)... and we have been through and survived a lot! I just feel after all of this, there are too many layers and this is too big. there are bad feelings and resentment from both sides and it will never all be released, especially by her as she holds grudges. I don't think she'd change the locks, my son lives here and he and I have a good relationship so I would be able to get in...but I believe you are right about one thing, I could see her getting vindictive and nasty at some point too.


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## Beowulf

bandit.45 said:


> She's losing her control over you and it is driving her batty.
> 
> A month ago it seems she was all crying and weeping and wailing over what she had done. This was another way of her controlling you. Now she's getting vindictive.
> 
> The more you describe your wife and her escalating behavior, the darker an image I have of her.
> 
> In-house separations don't work. They just don't. Read up on all the threads on TAM regarding this.
> 
> If I were you I would take your friend's offer to use his room and move out for a while. The only downside is she would probably change the locks and file divorce due to abandonment. I could see your wife being nasty in a divorcee situation.


I agree but I wouldn't leave the house. Let her rant. What she is doing is fitness testing (sh!t testing) you. Look it up and learn how to deal with it. All women do it and they'll do it a lot in an unstable relationship. If she accuses you of flirting just smile and say "whatever" or tell her "I can't help it if your friends flirt with me. I'm a good man and they know it." Then smile and walk away. Don't try to defend yourself. You have nothing to defend. She wants to get you defensive so you'll be on the defensive. You keep calm and cool. Exude confidence. Don't lose your temper. Treat her like you would a two year old child having a temper tantrum. Keep a VAR on you and save the recordings. What you are doing is having an obvious effect. Now you're seeing truth. Keep it in mind if you ever think of R.


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## Beowulf

Struggling4ever said:


> I agree on the in house separation advice, but my friend is not back for about 1 month so I will just try to keep my space as much as possible...like I've said, I need to use the time wisely and get productive on taking care of our home as well as financial issues. I can't help but feel bad for her...We/I is all she has know since she was 17 years old (except for the affair part)... and we have been through and survived a lot! I just feel after all of this, there are too many layers and this is too big. there are bad feelings and resentment from both sides and it will never all be released, especially by her as she holds grudges. I don't think she'd change the locks, my son lives here and he and I have a good relationship so I would be able to get in...but I believe you are right about one thing, I could see her getting vindictive and nasty at some point too.


She *WILL* change the locks. Count on it. From what you have described I doubt your relationship with your son will play into her thinking in the least.


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## Beowulf

Its not that she doesn't trust you. She knows she is losing you and her biggest fear is that you will end up with someone she knows. Its called pre-selection and its both a tool and a curse for women.


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## bandit.45

Beowulf said:


> I agree but I wouldn't leave the house. Let her rant. What she is doing is fitness testing (sh!t testing) you. Look it up and learn how to deal with it. All women do it and they'll do it a lot in an unstable relationship. If she accuses you of flirting just smile and say "whatever" or tell her "I can't help it if your friends flirt with me. I'm a good man and they know it." Then smile and walk away. Don't try to defend yourself. You have nothing to defend. She wants to get you defensive so you'll be on the defensive. You keep calm and cool. Exude confidence. Don't lose your temper. Treat her like you would a two year old child having a temper tantrum. Keep a VAR on you and save the recordings. What you are doing is having an obvious effect. Now you're seeing truth. Keep it in mind if you ever think of R.


That's good advice. It turns her insecurities back on herself. Struggling should try this.


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## Struggling4ever

Beowulf said:


> I agree but I wouldn't leave the house. Let her rant. What she is doing is fitness testing (sh!t testing) you. Look it up and learn how to deal with it. All women do it and they'll do it a lot in an unstable relationship. If she accuses you of flirting just smile and say "whatever" or tell her "I can't help it if your friends flirt with me. I'm a good man and they know it." Then smile and walk away. Don't try to defend yourself. You have nothing to defend. She wants to get you defensive so you'll be on the defensive. You keep calm and cool. Exude confidence. Don't lose your temper. Treat her like you would a two year old child having a temper tantrum. Keep a VAR on you and save the recordings. What you are doing is having an obvious effect. Now you're seeing truth. Keep it in mind if you ever think of R.


Pretty much how I've had to handle it. Yes I do try to explain myself, but when all else fails (and it does)...I just smile and say...I am not doing anything wrong and I'm no longer gonna worry about if you get pissed off or not I choose to be happy and enjoy my life...this is about me! I used to bow down to her anger and insecurities and I no longer do. I don't believe she knows how to deal with it?


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## Struggling4ever

Beowulf said:


> Keep a VAR on you and save the recordings. What you are doing is having an obvious effect. Now you're seeing truth. Keep it in mind if you ever think of R.


No recorder, but I'm trying to journal. When we are inbetween these moments it would be so easy to fall right back into it and be where I was...she has 2 speeds, very sweet and agreeable, or pissed off and vindictive. The 2nd speed can get scary! For the most part we get along great and I can understand her confusion and anger, but it still comes down to Do I want to deal with the triggers forever, and is this how I want to spend the rest of my life...I've been on the fence for some crazy reason and she keeps pushing me over and then pulling me back...This is why I need some space for myself, so I can decide without influence what is best for me. I can't commit with anyone, unless I am all in 100%.
Thanks!


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## Beowulf

Struggling4ever said:


> Pretty much how I've had to handle it. Yes I do try to explain myself, but when all else fails (and it does)...I just smile and say...I am not doing anything wrong and I'm no longer gonna worry about if you get pissed off or not I choose to be happy and enjoy my life...this is about me! I used to bow down to her anger and insecurities and I no longer do. I don't believe she knows how to deal with it?


See that's just it. *DON'T TRY TO EXPLAIN YOURSELF*.

You have nothing to explain. That is exactly what a fitness test is. It's a test that has *NO ANSWER*. Therefore the only appropriate response is to *NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION*.

So:

_I saw you flirting with that girl.

No I wasn't. She came up to me.

Bullsh!it, I saw you approach here.

No I didn't.
_
Becomes:

_I saw you flirting with that girl.

Hey I can't help it if you married an attractive desirable man.

(Smile and walk away)_


See, not on the defensive and you didn't answer the question because it had no answer.


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## Beowulf

Struggling4ever said:


> No recorder, but I'm trying to journal. When we are inbetween these moments it would be so easy to fall right back into it and be where I was...she has 2 speeds, very sweet and agreeable, or pissed off and vindictive. The 2nd speed can get scary! For the most part we get along great and I can understand her confusion and anger, but it still comes down to Do I want to deal with the triggers forever, and is this how I want to spend the rest of my life...I've been on the fence for some crazy reason and she keeps pushing me over and then pulling me back...This is why I need some space for myself, so I can decide without influence what is best for me. I can't commit with anyone, unless I am all in 100%.
> Thanks!


I think I understand exactly where you're coming from. For 11 years you were repressing your emotions. Now its all bubbling to the surface and you wonder why you have been on the defensive for all these years when she is the one that was unfaithful. What you need to do is stop allowing yourself to be pushed and pulled at all. You stand strong and let the rest circle around you while you sort out your feelings. You are in control of yourself unless you relinquish that control. The triggers will get better in time but they'll always be there whether you stay married or not. You just need to decide whether you want to go through it with her or without her. And there is no rush. And if your wife seems impatient tell her you have 11 years to decide.


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## cledus_snow

you need to do a serious "_exit, stage left_" here. for your own sanity.

the fallout from her affair is becoming a reality for her.


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## Struggling4ever

Still sleeping in a separate room and had 2 weeks of therapy. I am actually looking forward to week 3 and would go 2 times a week if I could afford it. I think it will help me. 

Last night we went out together for St. Patty's Day to watch a friends band. After a few pints of light beer and a shot, I come out of the bathroom and she was talking with 2 guys I didn't know. Both men and women gravitate to her and she usually meets several new people or couples when we are out and often ends the night with the other women saying we need to get together again sometime, this was fun. She was trying to show the guy how to spin when dancing (which is a very simple move that pretty much anyone can do without instruction). I sit down as I watch her grab his hands trying to spin him around and I'm thinking here we go...... After about 10 or 15 minutes she is introducing this guy to me and everyone at our table and she sits down. 

After awhile everyone was dancing so she got up to dance and of course this same young guy was getting drunk out of his mind and he heads right towards her to dance. He went to put his hands on her and she looked somewhat freaked out and came back to sit down. I said nothing, I just sat back to watch the "situation" she created for herself unfold. Every time she got up, he would head for her and she'd sit back down! I finally said "I thought you wanted to dance, why don't you"? She said that's ok...then she asked if I wanted to dance. I went up and danced a few songs and wasn't really feeling it, so I sat back down. She tried dancing but this same guy kept trying to move in on her and the girl she was dancing with and she was obviously moving to avoid him. She finally came back to the table. Fortunately we stopped drinking earlier or I'm sure it would have been different and I would have stepped in? 

Anyway her friend got these large pink beads from the singer in the band (one of our friends) and he said these are the only one's like this in here so hang onto them. Probably an hour later, my wife is standing up talking to another guy we don't know right behind me and she shows me her matching pink beads he gave her! I said, "you didn't just ask that guy for those beads did you"??? She said yeah.....they were told her friend had the only pink beads and these matched so she wanted them so her and her friend would have matching beads, so she explained this to the guy and he gave them to her. I just said...someone has something you don't and you just have to have it huh? 

I was thinking to myself, I go into a bar where we are with our friends and I catch **** if I say hi to the wrong girl, or if I talk to someone too long, and she talks to strangers who are drunk and ask guys she doesn't even know for beads and it's ok? This is bullsh*t!!! And my mood goes south! I was just somewhat quiet after that until we left. On the way home I said " I saw what happened tonight with the young drunk guy who kept trying to get by you on the dance floor, you know you brought that all on yourself tonight don't you?" She said what are you talking about...and I explained what I had observed when I came out of the bathroom and that it took her more than 10 or 15 minutes before she even realized I was just sitting there when she decided to introduce her new friend to our table". She said she was saying hi to a girl at that table and the girl introduced her to everyone and her and the guy started talking so she thought she should introduce him. I told her I was not happy and that she doesn't need to be grabbing someones hands to spin them around or asking drunken strangers for beads. Of course she turned it all around and yelled at me saying I was the one who decided to leave our bedroom and she is not going to go back to where she was not able to be herself. She is going to be herself and have fun! I said some things never change. You get mad at me and I apologize...I get mad at you and you turn it around and get mad back at me and in the past I would still apologize...those days are gone! She said you don't need to apologize! 

Last night was an "aha moment" for me, some things just never do change! I think our problem all along has been boundary issues...I have to have them, she makes her own.... I can't do this anymore. As sad as it is, I am trying to keep something together that simply doesn't work! She is a fun, beautiful, and an awesome person....but I am to insecure to handle her outgoing nature after what happened in our past. I on the other hand want to be more outgoing, but I can't do that around her without feeling uncomfortable and creating more drama that I don't want or need. I now realize the pattern needs to be broken and I need to initiate the change... to be continued!


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## bandit.45

Poor boundaries. This has been your wife's problem all along. I swear these waywards who get themselves caught up in affairs are like blind people walking through a South Carolina swamp. They wade in to the quicksand, nonchalant and not noticing the danger they're in, and before they know it they have sunk in up to their nostrils. 

I don't see how any reconcilliation with your wife is going to work unless she goes back to the fundementals. She seems to have no social boundaries at all -- thus it is no surprise she attracts hounddogs by the pack. 

My wife is exactly the same. When we were younger and going out to clubs I would be getting a drink at the bar or coming out of the restroom and she would be out on the dancefloor with some horny chulo with his hands all over her. She never seemed to mind, in fact she would be laughing and flirting the whole time. Then the drive home would be one big drawn out fight with the two of us not taking to each other the next day. Even after cheating on me the first time and knowing what she put me through, to still let men grope her like that? I should have dumped her a long time ago.

I have not been to a bar or nightclub since the breakup, and I plan to give them a wide berth from now on. Nothing good or positive comes out of the ******-tonk lifestyle. Nothing. 

God knows what she was out doing last night!!!


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## abetterme

Struggling - I've been reading a book called desperate marriages - it has helped me evaluate my life and it along with counseling could help you. I never forgave my husband for an indiscretion and it has plagued our relationship since. I think forgiveness and her truely apoligizing the way you want to be apologized to would be the only way to R.


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## Catherine602

Struggling. How goes it? 

I have a suggestion. I think you should stay with your wife for the time being and work on boundary issues. 

You are in therapy and you have identified the problem. This is the perfect time and the right person to do this with. 

If you leave now, you will have to work this out anyway. Why screw up a new relationship with residuals from this one. 

If you develop the skills you need to confront her without fear or feeling that you don't deserve better, you win a victory for yourself that you take with you. 

Make a commitment to yourself to do everything you can to set boundaries and change the dynamics of the relationship. 

If she does not follow you then take your new self out of her life.


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## Struggling4ever

Catherine602 said:


> Struggling. How goes it?
> 
> I have a suggestion. I think you should stay with your wife for the time being and work on boundary issues.
> 
> You are in therapy and you have identified the problem. This is the perfect time and the right person to do this with.
> 
> If you leave now, you will have to work this out anyway. Why screw up a new relationship with residuals from this one.
> 
> If you develop the skills you need to confront her without fear or feeling that you don't deserve better, you win a victory for yourself that you take with you.
> 
> Make a commitment to yourself to do everything you can to set boundaries and change the dynamics of the relationship.
> 
> If she does not follow you then take your new self out of her life.


Thanks for asking, I have good days and bad....This being honest and saying what I really feel is so hard! I am so used to just saying what I think people want to hear just to avoid confrontation and then resentment builds up and I get angry... I am still working on me and as far as boundaries...If I have to teach someone boundaries or "work on them" then it's not ever gonna work. It's just like values, morals, or simply knowing right from wrong...we can all justify anything, but when it comes right down to it, you should make the right decision if it is going to affect others (especially someone you supposedly love) because you know deep inside it's the right thing to do, not because you sat down together and set up boundaries! F-ing someone else should never be an option.....


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## Struggling4ever

abetterme said:


> Struggling - I've been reading a book called desperate marriages - it has helped me evaluate my life and it along with counseling could help you. I never forgave my husband for an indiscretion and it has plagued our relationship since. I think forgiveness and her truely apoligizing the way you want to be apologized to would be the only way to R.


My wife has been repeatedly asking me what she can do...she says please just tell me what I can do, anything...I did this and I want to help you. The problem is, if I need to tell her and she does it...it's no good. I don't know if there's anything she can do at this point? But if there was I guess it would be on her to figure it out??? I don't really know. As far as you not forgiving your husband, I now feel some things just might be unforgivable? Or at the very least unforgettable


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## Catherine602

Struggling. Boundaries are not for other people to figure out, it's for you to state and enforce. Look up boundaries - there are good books. The fact that you think boundaries are out of your hands is a problem I think. 

This is one - you decide that you will not accept your wife flirting and touchy -feely with men when you go out. You tell her that. The consequences, you have to decide. 

Another thing she is asking you what you want her to do and you want her to guess. Yes people should know what is right and wrong but it might not be the same as what you know. That's why you have to be specific. 

You have to let her know what she needs to do for you. This is good for you to practice now and in your next relationship. It is important for you to state what you want and need. 

When you meet with success, it will feel natural and become a part of you. No one can guess what you need and what you want, even when it seems obvious to you.


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## Struggling4ever

Catherine602 said:


> Struggling. Boundaries are not for other people to figure out, it's for you to state and enforce. Look up boundaries - there are good books. The fact that you think boundaries are out of your hands is a problem I think.
> 
> *This is one - you decide that you will not accept your wife flirting and touchy -feely with men when you go out. You tell her that. *The consequences, you have to decide.
> 
> *Another thing she is asking you what you want her to do and you want her to guess.* Yes people should know what is right and wrong but it might not be the same as what you know. That's why you have to be specific.
> 
> You have to let her know what she needs to do for you. This is good for you to practice now and in your next relationship. *It is important for you to state what you want and need. *When you meet with success, it will feel natural and become a part of you. *No one can guess what you need and what you want, even when it seems obvious to you*.



I agree to a point, but you are missing my point. Some people are just mis-matched. 

My wife has always been outgoing and "touchy feely", always.... It got to the point where I became uncomfortable, and I did tell her...we had many "discussions" about it (some heated). I remember telling her that some day someone would take her actions the wrong way, and that is exactly what happened, and then the affair! so I did decide that was unacceptable...but it is part of who she is. I can't expect her to change part of her core personality anymore than I could expect her to start writing with her opposite hand! I could ask her (as I did many times), but when it comes down to it, she is who she is. I honestly wish I was more like that, but I'm not and will probably never be...we are who we are! The boundary lies in when someone takes that "touchy feely person" the wrong way, you set them straight. That comes from character, morals, and knowing right from wrong. Not because someone told you... my opinion.

Also, I do not want her to guess? I do expect her to try to figure it out, or to not stop trying until I can actually say it's over. I can't tell her what I need for 2 reasons; 
1) I'm not sure what it would take because my issue lies in how deep a betrayal this actually was, and with the triggers and mind movies I've endured. 
2) If I knew the answer and told her, she would of course do whatever I ask because she says she loves me and wants to stay with me. In the back of my mind I know she is doing what I ask to stay with me, and I don't think it should be that easy... No different than taking a test with a cheat sheet...if you know the answers it's easy.... if you don't...it takes effort. 

Trust me, I have learned that being passive aggressive does not work and I have learned to speak the truth and say what I'm feeling even if it hurts the other person. I now know if I don't, we will both end up hurting in the end anyway. I have grown a lot as a person and so has my wife. If I decide after a seperation and therapy that I want to work on us...I will, and I will give it 100%. But I will not lead my wife on, sleep with her, tell her what she wants to hear, or even work on our relationship as a way to "practice" for a possible future relationship until I'm sure... It's not fair to her or I.... For now we stay in limbo. If she decides she can't handle the indecision and wants to move on, so be it...then I have my answer. I'm not wanting to be cruel....just not gonna lead her on anymore.
Thanks for your thoughts and for caring, it's appreciated!


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## bandit.45

Are you guys still going out on weekends? Any change in her public behavior?
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien

Struggling4ever said:


> I agree to a point, but you are missing my point. Some people are just mis-matched.
> 
> My wife has always been outgoing and "touchy feely", always....


I don't really agree that the two of you are just inherently mismatched. I read the post about the way the guy kept trying to dance with her, and I would not describe her as touchy feely as a result. I describe it as a person with a poor sense of personal boundaries, and a sense of entitlement that is more apt to fit a single woman.

My wife has always been the type that people gravitate to. She has dozens of very loyal friends, but even new acquantances want to flirt and joke with her. Almost all of my friends were really obsessed with her before we married. The difference, I believe, is that she has a strong sense of how certain behaviours can easily be misconstrued, and she knows her limits. I try to be mature about it. If a man makes her uncomfortable with her own boundaries, she will tell me, and has no problem with me getting involved.

There is another element, though, in my opinion. Is it possible, that the previous marriage counselor with her affair only reinforced any reluctance on your part to be firm in your expectations of boundaries? My wife once said out of the blue that one of the big factors in her strong boundaries is that she knows I have almost zero tolerance for crossing the line in the name of it being "her type". I could care less if it is not "her type", because it is "our marriage". We both made the deliberate choice to surrender expressions of friendship that do not support our marriage. In the post where you talked about the repeated attempts of the other man to dance with her, your wife could've easily cut the guy off and still maintained her sense of being an outgoing person. She can be fun, vivacious, and the center of attention without letting it get to the point of asking for beads, or having to repeatedly escape from a guy just because you are nearby. It depends on how bad she wants to be married to you. Plain and simple.


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## Struggling4ever

bandit.45 said:


> Are you guys still going out on weekends? Any change in her public behavior?
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


She has apologized profusely about that night. She was having fun and by touchy feely, I just mean she is the type to put her hand on someones arm as she talks. She is animated and talks with her hands. She does not act openly loose or ****ty by any means, like I said, I wish I could be more like her. I actually read into things...if a woman is too friendly or would touch or brush up against me, my mind does think she is coming on to me...and I know I'm not alone and I'm probably incorrect most of the time as well? Evertime she went out to the floor that guy headed at her like a guided missle and she turned around and came back and sat by me. I just watched it all unfold, knew it was coming and she just seems oblivious to it all...

We went out for a motorcycle ride last Sunday with another couple...I told her I didn't want to but I did...we had a deep discussion before and didn't talk a lot after. We went and saw a friends band on Saturday night...I didn't drink a lot and I wasn't too social, but they are friends and we closed the place down.

Therapy again tonight...still trying to figure me out. I will IM you one of these days when time allows. I honestly respect you as well as your opinion...Sucks that I only know you as some guy on a forum...but you seem to be honest and give a sh*t...that's a good thing! Thanks and best of luck to you!


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## Struggling4ever

Halien said:


> 1) I read the post about the way the guy kept trying to dance with her, and I would not describe her as touchy feely as a result. I describe it as a person with a poor sense of personal boundaries, and a sense of entitlement that is more apt to fit a single woman.
> 
> 2) Is it possible, that the previous marriage counselor with her affair only reinforced any reluctance on your part to be firm in your expectations of boundaries?
> 
> 3) In the post where you talked about the repeated attempts of the other man to dance with her, your wife could've easily cut the guy off and still maintained her sense of being an outgoing person.
> 
> 4) She can be fun, vivacious, and the center of attention without letting it get to the point of asking for beads, or having to repeatedly escape from a guy just because you are nearby. It depends on how bad she wants to be married to you. Plain and simple.


1) although she can indeed be very outgoing and touchy feely, she did show somewhat of a poor choice of personal boundaries that night...This has been going on for awhile now and she tries but I just tell her I can not lead her on or act like things are ok, because they're not! There is no working on our marriage right now...I don't want to, so she sits in limbo until i figure out what I'm gonna do. She wasn't out to do anything, I believe she just figured she wanted to have some fun? Maybe her own version of 180? I don't know, and right now I still don't really care. I could go into more detail, but everyone's heard enough about my "fence sitting"... I'm getting closer to figuring this mess out.

2) Again, I disagree with the "boundary issue"...I think if a person has the right morals, and character...you don't have to lay down rules and set boundaries because they should know what is acceptable in a committed relationship. Will I say something if I think she's being inapproprite, Hell yes, but it obviously didn't matter 11 years ago...and it is what it is? I can't make someone else think the same way as me any more than I can make them love me! To me either you can trust someone or you can't. Hindsight is 20-20, but I should have seen this coming!

3)She did cut him off, she pushed him away and sat down by me and everytime he walked in her direction, she turned and walked back by me and sat down...I watched it all unfold and just kept saying, I thought you wanted to dance?

4)Agreed...the problem now is I'm the one who can't decide if I want to stay married to her. Now that I no longer blame him for manipulating her, and me for pushing her away...and I really look at what unfolded before my eyes, I can't undestand why I accepted it and stayed. My therapist say PTSD can do that. She says the mind heals when it's ready to heal and this was all buried as it was too traumatic for me to deal with at the time. Now that it's out, it like it just happened.... One minute I cry and am angry and know I can't stay, the same day I look at her and just want to take care of her because that's all I know! That's all she knows..... but I can't.....too many layers on this onion!


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## Halien

Struggling4ever said:


> 1) although she can indeed be very outgoing and touchy feely, she did show somewhat of a poor choice of personal boundaries that night...This has been going on for awhile now and she tries but I just tell her I can not lead her on or act like things are ok, because they're not! There is no working on our marriage right now...I don't want to, so she sits in limbo until i figure out what I'm gonna do. She wasn't out to do anything, I believe she just figured she wanted to have some fun? Maybe her own version of 180? I don't know, and right now I still don't really care. I could go into more detail, but everyone's heard enough about my "fence sitting"... I'm getting closer to figuring this mess out.
> 
> 2) Again, I disagree with the "boundary issue"...I think if a person has the right morals, and character...you don't have to lay down rules and set boundaries because they should know what is acceptable in a committed relationship. Will I say something if I think she's being inapproprite, Hell yes, but it obviously didn't matter 11 years ago...and it is what it is? I can't make someone else think the same way as me any more than I can make them love me! To me either you can trust someone or you can't. Hindsight is 20-20, but I should have seen this coming!
> 
> 3)She did cut him off, she pushed him away and sat down by me and everytime he walked in her direction, she turned and walked back by me and sat down...I watched it all unfold and just kept saying, I thought you wanted to dance?
> 
> 4)Agreed...the problem now is I'm the one who can't decide if I want to stay married to her. Now that I no longer blame him for manipulating her, and me for pushing her away...and I really look at what unfolded before my eyes, I can't undestand why I accepted it and stayed. My therapist say PTSD can do that. She says the mind heals when it's ready to heal and this was all buried as it was too traumatic for me to deal with at the time. Now that it's out, it like it just happened.... One minute I cry and am angry and know I can't stay, the same day I look at her and just want to take care of her because that's all I know! That's all she knows..... but I can't.....too many layers on this onion!


Struggling, I sense that you are not going to be able to get past this if you can't resolve this one issue that you really fear to be a basic characteristic of who she is. Just my opinion, but it seems like you think that she is a person who will just natually get herself into possibly risky situations, sexually, and you either have to accept it or move on. Like some things are just so set in stone that they cannot be changed. Maybe you even wonder if the 'current her' would be mature enough to avoid the affair if a similar thing happened again.

No, you should not have to tell a moral person how to behave. But ANYONE who is really committed to marriage will always be looking out for the connection to her husband. In other words, she will always be looking your way to make sure that you are "buying in" to her at the moment. Its just a fact of relationships. We check ourselves continuously to make sure that the other person shares our connection. Look at yourself - a big part of the reason that you felt such guilt over your friendship with the female friend was because you knew how it might impact your wife's feelings, with her being the jealous type. At some level, you probably knew that you were safe in keeping it sexual, but part of your guilt was over what it was saying to your wife.

Its just my opinion, but if she is not "checking herself" continuously because of her awareness of your own view of boundaries, then her view of marriage is only a one way view. C'mon now ... think of what was your personal interests before you married. How did you alter your viewing habits on TV, porn, going out with the guys, remembering to say the words she needed to hear, which were so unnatural for you, just because they were the things you wanted to do for her? And you expect her to be virtually oblivious to your sense of well-being in the marriage in such a fundamental area? I would tend to lean toward the opinion that she just merely took your feelings for granted in the past, and just missed out on a couple of decades of maturity that come to many of the women on this site. Its all about the things we do to nurture the marriage, as opposed to the things we do to maintain our independence. For most happy couples, this is a slow, learned process, even in the boundary areas. We learn to see when some behavior hurts the marriage more than it brings personal gratification.

I hope you understand that I'm only trying to help you possibly put words to the questions in your mind, the ones that prevent you from making a firm decision about the marriage. Maybe I missed the mark, but I hope others will also join in to try to see if we can help you break it down to some very concrete doubts that you can address.


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## Beowulf

Struggling4ever said:


> My wife has been repeatedly asking me what she can do...she says please just tell me what I can do, anything...I did this and I want to help you. The problem is, if I need to tell her and she does it...it's no good. I don't know if there's anything she can do at this point? But if there was I guess it would be on her to figure it out??? I don't really know. As far as you not forgiving your husband, I now feel some things just might be unforgivable? Or at the very least unforgettable


You're wrong here struggling. She can't know what you need until you tell her. Sorry but each person is different. What I needed during my R may not be what you need during your R. Its like the 5 love languages. Everyone's love language is different. Or Dr. Harley's 10 needs from his book. Everyone has them in a different order. You need to tell her what you want and need. If she is reaching out to you that is a good sign.

You will have to forgive someday. You can never forget but not forgetting is not an impediment to R.


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## Beowulf

Struggling4ever said:


> For now we stay in limbo. If she decides she can't handle the indecision and wants to move on, so be it...then I have my answer. I'm not wanting to be cruel....just not gonna lead her on anymore.
> Thanks for your thoughts and for caring, it's appreciated!


Forgive me if I offend you a little here but it sounds to me like you just don't want to be the one to end the marriage. By keeping her in limbo until she finally cracks and asks for a divorce you can take the high road and say you tried. Sorry, but that is what it sounds like to me. That's not fair to either of you.


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## Beowulf

Struggling4ever said:


> She has apologized profusely about that night. She was having fun and by touchy feely, I just mean she is the type to put her hand on someones arm as she talks. She is animated and talks with her hands. She does not act openly loose or ****ty by any means, like I said, I wish I could be more like her. I actually read into things...if a woman is too friendly or would touch or brush up against me, my mind does think she is coming on to me...and I know I'm not alone and I'm probably incorrect most of the time as well? Evertime she went out to the floor that guy headed at her like a guided missle and she turned around and came back and sat by me. I just watched it all unfold, knew it was coming and she just seems oblivious to it all...


Read you own words here. She was not oblivious. Every time he made a move toward her she came right back TO YOU. Do you not see that? Maybe she should have outright told him to get lost but she might not be the confrontational type. I think you may be missing signs here because you have built up so much resentment. That's not healthy for you or her.

Edit: I hesitated to write this part because I didn't want to incur the wrath of the many nice women here on TAM. Then I thought what the heck.

Is it possible that night she was trying to jolt you into realizing you still had feelings for her? Women tend to have this romantic view that if they get into trouble their white knight will come charging up and save them. Maybe unconsciously she was hoping you would stand up for her when that guy kept going after her? I don't know. Just throwing it out there.


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## Catherine602

What Beowulf said.
I had the same feeling when I read your post. She seemed to want you to claim her, to protect her, show everyone that she is with you and back off. This may not be you but I think you should perfect showing ownership.

I may be wrong but I doubt that there are many woman who would object to their man letting every other man in the room know "she is with me". Not obviously but subtly. 

Let me ask, could you or have you ever respond to her over-friendliness by acting possessive? How would she have responded if you took her by the hand and sat her down beside you?


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## bandit.45

Beowulf and Cat have some good points here.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


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## Halien

Catherine602 said:


> What Beowulf said.
> I had the same feeling when I read your post. She seemed to want you to claim her, to protect her, show everyone that she is with you and back off. This may not be you but I think you should perfect showing ownership.
> 
> I may be wrong but I doubt that there are many woman who would object to their man letting every other man in the room know "she is with me". Not obviously but subtly.
> 
> Let me ask, could you or have you ever respond to her over-friendliness by acting possessive? How would she have responded if you took her by the hand and sat her down beside you?


I'll probably be the only one, but while I wondered about this being a part of her response, wanting him to claim her, I think it only supports the doubts that Struggling has, and I think it would be childish and unacceptable for her to allow this response. Much better for her to just act decisively with the other man.

With just about any other woman, I would probably agree with the advice.

Certain life stories I keep to myself, because I don't think anyone would really understand, missing the context. My wife did have a situation where she found it really hard to shut down a man's attempts to get closer to her. This man served under my wife's dad a few years before in the military, but was much younger. After multiple improper comments were casually brushed aside by my wife, he took that to be indecison on my wife's part, and made a very blatant pass when he followed her into a private area. When I noticed this guy's attitude toward her, I had told my wife that she wouldn't like it if I was the one who had to stand up for her when she was too timid to hurt his feelings. The first time he said something questionable, I asked him if he was sure that this came out right, and he backtraced. But I had the feeling that he was trying to get to her around me as the evening progressed. It was a very alpha sexual pass when he finally made his move, where he met her in the bedroom of our vacation house while she was coming out of the bathroom when we were having a party. Thing was, he knew she was married. It was long ago. My wife and I turned it into a very visible learning experience of zero tolerance for not respecting boundaries. Obviously, my FIL's friendship with the guy ended after he had to explain the bruises and swelling.

I think far too many guys pressure themselves, elevating their wife to a position in the relationship where she can require him to keep her from getting into affairs, in essence, through taking on the role of jumping through her hoops. How many women would really accept the role of chasing after their husband every time she feared that he was getting into a potential sexual tryst? I'm really talking about something very subtle - the relationship dynamic where she holds the upper hand, and allows her husband to be the vulnerable one. Maybe she clings to her right to talk to single men at a dance, because it is harmless, twisting his concern into the impression that he is an ogre. She can skirt the sexual boundaries, but he cannot. This elevates her role to one of calling the shots, and easy fitness testing.

Struggling took this role early in the marriage where his wife's position became elevated, so he could not hold the same expectations for her that she took for granted in him. She had an affair, and he was guilted into taking the blame. His wife, in my opinion, doesn't know how to elevate him to the same level of importance in the relationship. She would never dream of holding herself accountable to the things she expected of him. She's so used to being the one who can flitter about around the edges of his boundaries, that it is just natural. 

My point is that Struggling should take advantage of showing her that he will be passionate about his love for her, but his wife testing this through her inability to respect boundaries is not a healthy way to do it for a woman who has already given to infidelity. Certainly not someone who is trying to save her marriage.

I wouldn't have recommended standing by on that night. I would've recommended going to her after the second time, in front of the guy, and told him that my wife was unavailable. Then I would've told her it was decision time for her.


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## Beowulf

While I agree with you in theory Halien, Struggling has kept his marriage in limbo for so long maybe his wife was trying to gauge his feelings one way or another while hoping to pull him out of state of purgatory. The fact that she kept going back to him whenever this man approached at least says to me that SHE thought of herself as Struggling's woman. I don't think that should be ignored.

Edit: One other thing. This is my opinion only but no one should need or want to elevate their spouse to a level of importance. If you assume the stature of importance it will either be recognized or the relationship will crumble. I know my personal value and if someone chooses to look down on me, whether it be a spouse, a friend or just an acquiescence that person will not be in my life very long. Just like nobody can make you happy, nobody can dictate your substance as an individual and a person.


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## Halien

Beowulf said:


> While I agree with you in theory Halien, Struggling has kept his marriage in limbo for so long maybe his wife was trying to gauge his feelings one way or another while hoping to pull him out of state of purgatory. The fact that she kept going back to him whenever this man approached at least says to me that SHE thought of herself as Struggling's woman. I don't think that should be ignored.
> 
> Edit: One other thing. This is my opinion only but no one should need or want to elevate their spouse to a level of importance. If you assume the stature of importance it will either be recognized or the relationship will crumble. I know my personal value and if someone chooses to look down on me, whether it be a spouse, a friend or just an acquiescence that person will not be in my life very long. Just like nobody can make you happy, nobody can dictate your substance as an individual and a person.


I wonder if I go off on a tangent when I suggest this, but a parallel issue, in my opinion, is that we often languish in limbo not because we don't have answers, but because we can't get our arms around what question to ask. What is really bugging us, or preventing us from getting an answer from the other person?

Does that make sense? I'm suggesting that you raised a very real issue, but if I were in Struggling's shoes, there is this whole ambiguous unsettled question that prevents a person like me from deciding what to do.

Me, I suspect that he want's to know if their marriage really meant the same to her in the past. What will their marriage really mean going forward?

I hate to drag my own past into another person's thread, but maybe this will explain - I had some major abandonment issues as a child. Not only did my mother give up parental rights for a time, there was initially a huge issue of whether my foster care would be managed by the state or by tribal services, because my mother didn't provide birth records at the time I was put into foster care. 

As an adult, a therapist helped me to learn that when we experience betrayal from someone so close, whether childhood abandonment, or infidelity, the betrayal itself isn't really the only source of emotional pain. After betrayal, some people begin to have real doubts about the meaning of the relationship in general, whether it is husband/wife or parent/child. Some people develop and hold closely to a view of marriage or family that is almost spiritual in nature. The betrayal shatters something that we may have held to be incredibly important.

Hope I'm not getting too personal, but I fear that Struggling's internal idea of marriage, and what it meant, was turned upside down in one event that occurred years ago, and he was immediately placed into a position of inferiority by the counseling they received, so he didn't deal with it. I don't think that apologies or remorse are enough to help a man in limbo. In whatever language speaks to him, he needs to hear that her view of marriage going forward is the same as his.

When I talk about elevate our spouse's above or below ourself, I'm not talking about an intentional act. Whether we want to admit it or not, many men inherently view ourself as being less mature than our wife when we marry. We jokingly look at marriage as having to "grow up", or lose some of our independence. If relationship issues arise, its easy to see our wife as the more mature person in complex interrelationship issues, and defer to her in some ways. Well, the marriage counselor only reinforced this after Struggling's wife had the affair. He took more than his fair share of the blame. When you speak of this interrealtionship in the context of "looking up" to another person, or "looking down", he is looking up to her position in the marriage, and she developed into a pattern of looking down at his position. Hence the double standard - she could flirt or be the social butterfly, but she would go ballistic if he did the same. Inevitably, when this paradigm exists, there will be a time where the one in the "looking up" position will seek a levelling, or equal standing in the relationship. Every couple words this differently if it happens to them. I'm only suggesting that Struggling needs to find the way to frame the questions that end his doubts. To frame the new relationship expectations going forward, as it should have been done after the infidelity.


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## DailyGrind

Catherine602 said:


> What Beowulf said.
> I had the same feeling when I read your post. She seemed to want you to claim her, to protect her, show everyone that she is with you and back off. This may not be you but I think you should perfect showing ownership.
> 
> I may be wrong but I doubt that there are many woman who would object to their man letting every other man in the room know "she is with me". Not obviously but subtly.
> 
> Let me ask, could you or have you ever respond to her over-friendliness by acting possessive? How would she have responded if you took  her by the hand and sat her down beside you?


I had the same feeling, sorry to say. You telling her "I thought you wanted to dance" seemed like you weretrying to set her up....reinforcing your view of her. Sorry...that was my first thought.


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## Struggling4ever

Halien said:


> As an adult, a therapist helped me to learn that when we experience betrayal from someone so close, whether childhood abandonment, or infidelity, the betrayal itself isn't really the only source of emotional pain.
> 
> *After betrayal, some people begin to have real doubts about the meaning of the relationship in general, whether it is husband/wife or parent/child. Some people develop and hold closely to a view of marriage or family that is almost spiritual in nature. The betrayal shatters something that we may have held to be incredibly important.*
> 
> Hope I'm not getting too personal, but I fear that *Struggling's internal idea of marriage, and what it meant, was turned upside down in one event that occurred years ago, *
> 
> *he didn't deal with it. I don't think that apologies or remorse are enough to help a man in limbo. *
> 
> double standard - she could flirt or be the social butterfly, but she would go ballistic if he did the same. Inevitably, when this paradigm exists, there will be a time where the one in the "looking up" position will seek a levelling, or equal standing in the relationship. Every couple words this differently if it happens to them. I'm only suggesting that Struggling needs to find the way to frame the questions that end his doubts. To frame the new relationship expectations going forward, as it should have been done after the infidelity.


:iagree:
*BINGO!!!*
That is exactly my view of what marriage should be. I feel no matter what you are dealing with - you are faithful, or you leave...no "double dipping"!


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## Struggling4ever

Something you probably didn't know. When I met my wife I was 20, she was 17. I was married and had been for 2 years. I got married at 18 (right out of high school) to the first girl I'd ever dated. I knew as I was saying my vows it was wrong, but I'd never even broken up with anyone, so how could I call off a wedding? It was a disaster from day 1. She didn't drive, didn't want to...she would get a job and we would get into a fight and she'd say I'm not going to work and she'd quit. She drank way to much and basically used me as a way to get out of her abusive broken home and party...I was never happy. 

One day I was driving down the street, my present wife whistled...I turned around and pulled over and we started talking. She was attractive, fun, and she had a 6 month old (the babies father abandoned them). I had a 1 year old (who was always with me) I wasn't happy and I admired that she was in such a bad situation yet took such good care of herself and her daughter. I think I have always been attracted to people who needed me? I always want to help them... or fix them.....

Anyway, didn't see her again for awhile but I sure thought about her, and one day at a corner store she was with a group of people and one of them was a friend of mine. We did start to see each other. I talked about my problems and my daughter, she talked about hers. I started to pick her up in my 74 Cuda (I always said she whistled at the car, not me) and we'd go for rides and eventually this lead to making out and kissing. She felt bad because although I said I wasn't happy, I was married it it was wrong. I felt bad because I was married and I knew it was wrong, but I made a decision. I told my wife I wasn't happy. I had often said "If this is your idea of being married, then I don't want it". And I moved out. I wasn't honest about why, I just said I wasn't happy and needed some time...but I moved out. 

It was then that my present wife and I took our relationship to the next level. So in recent arguments over the past year, she has made it very clear that I am a cheater too! She's right, I was, I'm not proud, but I was a 20 yr. old naive kid in a bad situation. But I did what I did and it was wrong. But I didn't have a full blown physical ongoing affair with my wifes best friend, while staying with my wife professing my love for her. I knew I wasn't happy and I wanted out and I took action.

So that is what I mean by morals, personal boundaries, etc.
I did have an affair. I knew it was wrong. I left my wife. But I should have been honest! After I left, her father died, she was lost, fell in with a bad crowd, and she turned to hard drugs (heroin) and prostitution. I ended up getting custody of our daughter which forced her into counciling and getting clean. She has always stayed drug free as far as I know but she had been in several bad relationships and her other kids are all a mess....drugs, theft, living with the Dad, you name it!

I think this has a lot to do with why I couldn't or didn't leave, and still have troubles doing it? I have broke up with 1 woman in my life and things went really bad! I do have love for my wife and I don't want to see her struggle or have bad things happen to her, but my role seems to be to take care of her. Because of my strong commitment to what I believe marriage should be, and based on how horrid her affair really was, and all of the lives besides mine that were screwed up because of this, I don't want to live with all that any longer. Yes it will still be with me, but down the road if I am with someone else and I have a memory or trigger, I'll know it wasn't the person I'm with that did this to me and to me that matters!


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## Halien

Struggling, its hard to see how she could equate something you did long ago, in a previous marriage to what happened while the two of you were married. But this could be her way of trying to point out that there were mistakes on both side, and she wants to move forward.

I think you should really try to break down the different factors in the marriage that are leaving you in limbo. While her affair and the time after that was horrible for you, it seems that there is a longer lasting narrative that is really unresolved, as we talked about. Personally, if you haven't already done it, I think you should write out some points about what you want your marriage to mean going forward. Don't spare the parts that might be easy prey to her practical tendencies. Talk about what you don't want it to be, also. Just be real about what you want. I think there is power in discussing this with her. This is all about getting to the place where you can see her eyes light up with emotion, which lets you know that she is ready to make this happen.

Encourage her to do the same after she sees the direction you are going with yours.

No matter what, there will be areas where she just doesn't get it. But you describe so many strong personality traits in her that make up for this.

I do think she really wants to buy in to your shared vision for your marriage, as the other's suggest. She just probably doesn't understand that there are these unanswered questions in your mind. 

As Beowulf and Catherine suggested, your newfound confidence in yourself can really inspire her to respond very positively to the things you do. If you really put questions and answers together to settle your doubts, the next part of rebuilding can be incredible.


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## Catherine602

I did not mean to imply that you use your wife. She is human so why would that be a solution to living a more whole and happy life?

I am asking you to step it up and really be in the relationship. Make the changes in your=self that your wife needs, if you love her enough. Also do it for you personally and her. Even if she cannot make the changes in her self that wil facilitate the marriage, she will learn what is missing and may be better for it in her next relationship. 

Working on the relationship is a commitment to work on it towards the goal of staying together. It is not a commitment to stay together, i din't think. If you see it that way and make that clear to your wife then how are you using her? She is fully aware as is only fair.


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## Darth Vader

Struggling4ever said:


> Ok...well after the above night I said I will no longer go there... I stopped in again last Wednesday (that's a night all her/our friends are there with free lessons and no cover). I was just having a drink that a friend (guy) bought me and planned on staying for an hour or so. My wife was dancing having a good time and I decided to do a walk around the bar to see if any friends that I knew might be there. My older son has many friends that go to this place as well and they often like to say hi. As I walk around the corner I see the woman (one of them anyway) that apparently my wife feels threatened by. I said hi and said I haven't been here in awhile, the last time was a week and a half ago when we had the Blue Moons...she said yeah I've been working a lot that was the last time I was here too. I said well have a good night, and I proceeded to walk around the outer perimeter of the dance floor and eventually made my way back where I started. I had 1 more drink and went home. Nothing more was said that night...
> 
> A couple nights later I had shown my wife and son a new software update on their phones and they started the update. I was playing guitar in the living room and also checking my phone and my wife was having problems with the download for her update and was mumbling about it and I stopped and went in to help. I then went back in to the living room and she was again having a problem. I actually started to get irritated and I yelled give me a minute, I'm checking my phone! The calm finally ended and she went off about me being on my phone and me enjoying my space, and me having my private life.etc, etc, etc... She actually was upset enough she said F you (which doesn't often happen) and I said it back and I retreated upstairs.
> 
> That night as I was getting ready for bed (in my room), she finally came in and unloaded on me...She said I was sneaking around and I'm a cheater as well, she called me a thief (because of a few items I bought home from work that were being discarded, as well as something that had been left there by my friend who had quit and moved away), she called me manipulative, a liar....and this went on and on! She also then brought up last Wednesday when we we were at the "dancehall/saloon" and she said I saw how you managed to sneak around the corner to talk to #@**#, I watched you! You thought cause I was dancing I wouldn't notice but you went around the corner, talked to her, and then walked around the entire bar thinking I wouldn't notice! I said, wow...you actually were watching me the entire time weren't you? I told her I did nothing wrong and that although she claims to not trust the "girls", in reality she doesn't trust me, because if she did they would be a non-issue! I tried to reason and she would say - that's right, you are mr. perfect who never does anything wrong, you have an answer for everything! I also tried to explain about the equipment and said I could have done all that behind her back too if I was trying to be sneaky or do something wrong, but no it was all in the open, we went together to a gathering of friends and I dropped it off...(we even took pictures) so again...I always thought everything was ok and now I find she was harboring resentment over that as well, and now I am a thief too?!!
> 
> Because of her verbal assault, I almost left again that night but I really have nowhere to go and right now we have no extra money! I stayed, she eventually went to sleep and we have been back to not saying much to each other. We started to talk yesterday but she actually started in about how she thought she was ok with the past situation with my friend from work who moved away over 6 months ago, but apparently she's not and was making all of our issues about me again! I said you are just not ok with me in general and it all comes down to you did me wrong big time...I forgave you and gave you trust, and you can't/don't trust me! I then re-enforced that I will not allow her to make our problems about me and what she believes I've done, this is about what happened in the past and I am finally dealing with it whether she can accept it or not... I had plans to go out on my own last night but a mutual friend stopped over to help my son with a "project bike" and we all just hung out at home and then to bed...alone. Today is a new day!


You realize your wife is the manipulative liar, right? She sounds very controling to me. From the way I see it, your wife can't take the pain (you talking with other women) that you have endured. Your wife, or rather STBX, is starting to see what she's done to you and she doesn't like what she sees. Just my point of view.


----------



## oldmittens

Hello S4E hope this are well. Was hoping you could update us all did you divorce your wife after???


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## Bafuna

I also think you didnt really deal with what happened 11 years ago properly and leaving does not mean you are dealing with it, you could still find yourself alone or with someone else but still not having forgiven which I think is the issue here....forgive her, leave? stay? I dont know, but forgive....so that you can move on with your life with or without her.


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## Struggling4ever

Wow... I just saw it's been 8 months since my last post! I hate to say this but all these months later and I am still not committed to the marriage and am still somewhat lost. I am however stronger and not the same person I was when this all came back out into the open. Through many months of weekly therapy I have learned a lot about myself and why I did the things I did as well as what really happened in my head with my "friend" who moved away 1 1/2 years ago. I understand now that she was never more than a friend, she came into my life for a reason, and I understand what drew me to her emotionally. She never thought of me as more than a friend, I was the one who got things confused, and we only talk on rare occasion (a few times in 1 1/2 years). She was in town recently for a few weeks helping her daughter move into a new home and asked for my help with a few things. (I'm a former contractor).. I said no because not only was I busy, I said it wouldn't be fair to my wife to help her when I don't have time to finish projects in my own house. I was also asked to go to lunch with her and another coworker and I said no to that as well. The day she asked me to go to lunch, and I said no, she did say she was leaving that weekend and would like to at least see me and say hi before leaving town, so we did meet for coffee, and although it was only about 30 minutes, my wife blew up about it. She sent her a text and told me I was to either cut off all communication or we were done... my choice. 

I threw it back at her, said we were never more than friends, it was never sexual, and that I learned in therapy that she was just a friend who was going through a similar situation and came into my life for a reason (our jobs caused us to work together daily for 3 years). In those 3 years we never met outside of work (unless spouses and coworkers were included). We never had lunch, coffee, drinks, anything... we just became good friends. I believe she was there was to help me get my feelings out in the open and now that they are, I can deal with them. I said my problem is I have always let her blame our problems on anything or anyone else, and never on her affair with my "best friend"... and I was no longer going to allow that to happen! She apologized the next morning and actually said she knows I'm a good man and she realizes she is trying to control me, and that she wants to try couples counselling. I told her that after all that has happened, I'm not so sure I do, but I will give it a chance considering all of our history because learning to communicate is a good thing regardless of what happens.. Yes I am stronger, but I still don't like hurting her. 

We had another episode a few months back where she made me feel uncomfortable at a bar we go to for live music shows. It was not that she did anything too out of line but I explained that because of our history it doesn't take much for me to feel uncomfortable. She went off on me and said she would call our son and start walking home. I tried and tried to calm her down as she yelled terrible things at me while I drove slowly along the side of the rode across the street from her. I would not leave her alone as it was a dark 2 lane highway3 towns away from where we live... It was a terrible night and we didn't talk for a few days and then she started acting loving and was trying to move on together like nothing ever happened.. This has happened 3 times in the past 8 months (that I remember) so this has something to do with why I don't really believe her when she acts like we are good! The good thing that has happened is that I am stronger, I stand up to her, and I tell her it is ok if she gets mad. I tell her I don't really care either way...I choose to be happy! Of course she doesn't like this because the manipulation no longer works, but she seems to be coming around to it. I have let her know in no uncertain terms that I will no longer accept the "double standard" where she can talk to whoever/whenever, and I have to walk on eggshells around women... I told her I will be myself when we're out (still showing her respect) and if she chooses to get mad, that's ok... and I told her that although getting my feelings out in the open has been hard on her and our marriage, it had to happen for me to ever get better, and I feel better than I have in years! Give me a few more months and I believe I'll either be all in or on the way out... Thanks for asking how I'm doing. I still lean towards leaving, but I just can't commit... it's all or nothing!


----------



## jameskimp

Struggling4ever said:


> Wow... I just saw it's been 8 months since my last post! I hate to say this but all these months later and I am still not committed to the marriage and am still somewhat lost. I am however stronger and not the same person I was when this all came back out into the open. Through many months of weekly therapy I have learned a lot about myself and why I did the things I did as well as what really happened in my head with my "friend" who moved away 1 1/2 years ago. I understand now that she was never more than a friend, she came into my life for a reason, and I understand what drew me to her emotionally. She never thought of me as more than a friend, I was the one who got things confused, and we only talk on rare occasion (a few times in 1 1/2 years). She was in town recently for a few weeks helping her daughter move into a new home and asked for my help with a few things. (I'm a former contractor).. I said no because not only was I busy, I said it wouldn't be fair to my wife to help her when I don't have time to finish projects in my own house. I was also asked to go to lunch with her and another coworker and I said no to that as well. The day she asked me to go to lunch, and I said no, she did say she was leaving that weekend and would like to at least see me and say hi before leaving town, so we did meet for coffee, and although it was only about 30 minutes, my wife blew up about it. She sent her a text and told me I was to either cut off all communication or we were done... my choice.
> 
> I threw it back at her, said we were never more than friends, it was never sexual, and that I learned in therapy that she was just a friend who was going through a similar situation and came into my life for a reason (our jobs caused us to work together daily for 3 years). In those 3 years we never met outside of work (unless spouses and coworkers were included). We never had lunch, coffee, drinks, anything... we just became good friends. I believe she was there was to help me get my feelings out in the open and now that they are, I can deal with them. I said my problem is I have always let her blame our problems on anything or anyone else, and never on her affair with my "best friend"... and I was no longer going to allow that to happen! She apologized the next morning and actually said she knows I'm a good man and she realizes she is trying to control me, and that she wants to try couples counselling. I told her that after all that has happened, I'm not so sure I do, but I will give it a chance considering all of our history because learning to communicate is a good thing regardless of what happens.. Yes I am stronger, but I still don't like hurting her.
> 
> We had another episode a few months back where she made me feel uncomfortable at a bar we go to for live music shows. It was not that she did anything too out of line but I explained that because of our history it doesn't take much for me to feel uncomfortable. She went off on me and said she would call our son and start walking home. I tried and tried to calm her down as she yelled terrible things at me while I drove slowly along the side of the rode across the street from her. I would not leave her alone as it was a dark 2 lane highway3 towns away from where we live... It was a terrible night and we didn't talk for a few days and then she started acting loving and was trying to move on together like nothing ever happened.. This has happened 3 times in the past 8 months (that I remember) so this has something to do with why I don't really believe her when she acts like we are good! The good thing that has happened is that I am stronger, I stand up to her, and I tell her it is ok if she gets mad. I tell her I don't really care either way...I choose to be happy! Of course she doesn't like this because the manipulation no longer works, but she seems to be coming around to it. I have let her know in no uncertain terms that I will no longer accept the "double standard" where she can talk to whoever/whenever, and I have to walk on eggshells around women... I told her I will be myself when we're out (still showing her respect) and if she chooses to get mad, that's ok... and I told her that although getting my feelings out in the open has been hard on her and our marriage, it had to happen for me to ever get better, and I feel better than I have in years! Give me a few more months and I believe I'll either be all in or on the way out... Thanks for asking how I'm doing. I still lean towards leaving, but I just can't commit... it's all or nothing!


The manipulation seems to be working just fine. She cheated and now she's the one giving ultimatums??

What a remorseful wife. 

His indecision is weakness and that does not exude confidence. Your wife is still walking all over you.


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## Machiavelli

Struggling, have you ever read MMSL or NMMNG? In any case, I don't think you have been obeying The Sixteen Commandments that keep a woman happy and interested.


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## Struggling4ever

*Update;*
My wife (or quite possibly S2BXW) is away with our daughter and friends for a week (on a cruise of all things) and I am getting things in order and then I believe it is finally time to separate... This is my going away letter to her. I did this for me, not her. I am no longer angry, I am finally at peace and I have finally let go;


*Sometimes I get angry with you and sometimes I blame myself.*

*If only I could have just let the pain go*, talked to you about it, showed my love more in the bedroom, trying to find the passion that I buried away with my anger and hurt. 

*If only I hadn't sought solace and companionship through an understanding friend*. We had lost that somewhere along our path. Sure it wasn't sexual, we were never even that close...it was just an honest human connection that I needed and was missing. If only I had been able to listen unquestioningly to your demands, instead of arguing when I knew it would always end up the same way... turned around and about your issues and not mine.

*If only I had been perfect*, I think we've both felt this way?

After 10 years of keeping my thoughts and feelings buried, I let them out. I should have dealt with this years earlier but I knew the pain and hurt it would cause, and I didn't realize that ultimately this was something I needed for me. This mental and emotional racket running through my head and heart on a daily basis was taking it's toll on me. And after letting it out, I was finally starting to see some light shining in through the cracks and I knew there was no going back.

Finding support online had a lot to do with it, and the real breakthrough came when you accused me of having an affair and would't believe this was about what you had done 10 years previous. I finally had to tell you. I needed this for so long. My inner voice shouted out and I was thinking you actually had an affair with my best friend and you are going to accuse me when I wasn't!!! I have stayed silent all these years because I thought it was my pain to bear and I didn't want to hurt you and now you're not going to give me that same love, trust or respect? Of course you tried to understand but you're inner being couldn't deal with the guilt and blame, and in time after many arguments, you turned it around and said I was having an emotional affair and that's just as bad... some might agree but I don't and won't...ever! I said if I was having an emotional affair it was a "one sided, non-sexual emotional affair" and I could live with that because although I may have had more feelings at one time than I should have as a friend, they were never reciprocated and it was nice to have a friend who'd been through what I had, had been through therapy, and didn't offer advice...only support and friendship. No lunches, dinners, drinks, parties... just a friend. I finally got angry and said what my inner voice had been screaming! My feelings burst out and I said I'm not having an affair and as far as I'm concerned until I stick my **** into someone else, you have nothing to say!!! I hated hurting you and yet at the same time I hated you for what you did and the anger was rising. It had to come out. That was the honesty I'd been hiding. When I was struggling and hurting I had someone tell me that I needed to be honest with myself? I didn't know what that meant and yet it kept ringing in my head and started me on my journey.. It took a long time but I finally figured it out and telling you how I'd been feeling and what this all has done to me and letting out that inner rage was the answer. It had to happen and although I never wanted to hurt you...you hurt me!

*It's been a few years of arguing now and I am finally able to see you in a much more sympathetic light. *

*I know you did not wake up one morning and decide that you were going to hurt me*. You did not plan on having an affair. It was something that happened and when you saw the opportunity to have what you felt was missing, or what you deserved, or needed, wanted, whatever it was....you went for it. It was a decision you made and life is always about choices. I have made bad choices of my own and all we can do is learn from them and move on trying to make better choices in the future. Unfortunately when we make bad choices they sometimes affect others and we have to live with the outcome. But life goes on and hopefully we both make the best of every day whether it's together or on our own. I have learned that we are all in this together (meaning everyone), and yet we are also all in this alone and are responsible for our own actions.

*You simply acted on your life experiences and emotions*, and you chose to do what seemed right for you at the time. Which is exactly what we all do.

Looking back on it, I could see what a mess we were. Our insecurities and flaws became more exaggerated when we were together. We sometimes brought out the best in each other, but we often brought out the worst in each other as well.

*I am thankful for our talk at Olive Garden and afterwards at home on Saturday*, and I believe I am finally able to forgive you and let this pain go. It's all out now, I've said it all and I/we need to move forward from this. I still have questions and I let you know what they were, but even with answers, I'll always ask why, and nothing you could say will ever make it ok and we both know this. Some things in life are just too hard to accept. I love you and I know you love me, but I don't think it's enough when there's no foundation to build on. 

*I apologize for not being honest with you*. I should have told you how I was feeling and shared my pain but I was confused myself. We always liked the same things and had so many years together that that's all I knew. But we were obviously missing something for the affair to have happened in the first place. And we were obviously missing something that I needed to share my pain with anyone who would listen (always making me and your partner as the villains, and you as the victim) until I finally found someone who would listen and not judge me or you, not tell me I should leave, just be a friend and listen, and say I needed to get help and work through my pain in order to let it go.... I know you feel the "friend" should have been you. That was one of my mistakes, I drew the line and it hurt you. But I didn't care because you hurt me and I needed this for me! I had someone who would just listen and not blame or make excuses. In the end, I found out that my therapist was who I should have talked to all the time...Not you, not a friend, but a therapist who could help me let it all out and sort through my real feelings by helping me to just "be honest with myself".

*I apologize for not knowing myself better*, and realizing how hard this would be and how damaging it really was to hold this inside.

*I apologize for not seeing you for who you are, *instead trying to make you be my version of who I wanted you to be. You are open and loving, fun and unique, outgoing and very touchy feely with others. This too often made me uncomfortable and by me trying to reign in your free spirit, I caused you to resist and rebel. You would get angry thinking you weren't doing anything wrong, but if what you're doing is making your partner uncomfortable, it either needs to change or it needs to be talked about. You could be openly flirtatious or suggestively dancing and I was supposed to be ok with it, yet we'd get into it if I'd even talk to "certain girls" and the problem was, I never knew who they were until after I talked to them and you'd get mad...When I tried to talk, it usually ended bad so for the most part I kept quiet. This all fits in with the "being honest with you" and Knowing myself better". You are who you are and you're a beautiful fun person with an awesome spirit, but it's something I've never been comfortable with and I've learned I have no control over...and I shouldn't try to change and control you. We are 2 different people.

*I will always be thankful for all of the good times we've shared*—the road trips, the conversations, raising our kids, parties, working together in business and in life. You've always encouraged whatever I wanted to do, whether it was opening the Salon, move it more than once, going into construction, motorcycle riding, and guitar playing. I have tried to encourage and support you as well. I did this with through the Salon, education, family matters, during illnesses, dancing, martial arts, and other things along the way. I am proud that you are finally working on you (I know you too have a lot of inner pain and anger you need to let go of). Although it wasn't necessary for me, I am proud that you are finally getting your GED because I knew you could do it, and I know you need and want it for you. I believe this is so big for you and just the beginning of new opportunities for you!

*I wish for you to find health and wholeness in your heart, soul, mind, and body.* You are a good person an deserve great things.

*I forgive you and I hope that one day you forgive me.* You have said many things during moments of anger, and I know things I have done have hurt you as well.

*I now realize that forgiving and forgetting are very different things.* I need to forgive you for both of us to heal, but I needed to do it for me first, and so I forgive you, but I must not forget the lessons I learned from our marriage.

*I must not forget what is most important to me right now*— freedom from the pain of our past, freedom from distrust, freedom to pursue friendships, freedom from anger and control. We both tried to control each other and we both let resentment sink in and eat at our relationship. This has been going on longer than I think either of us realize..

*For too long, I resisted forgiving because I had confused “forgiveness” with “being ok with what happened.”* Nothing could be further from the truth, I'm not ok with it, and never will be. But you are far from the only person in the world who has done something hurtful without intending to. Sometimes bad things just happen to good people. We have all hurt people in our lives, and we have all benefited from someone’s forgiveness. How bad would the world be if everyone held onto their pain the way I did...I needed to learn to release the anger and resentment, let it go, and instead choose to forgive. I needed to learn from the pain instead of wallowing in it. I'm trying and it's a process for sure, but so far it's been a very needed and worthwhile process.

This is so hard for me, but I really believe the best thing for us to do right now is to separate and have our own space and life experiences. We will either find that we are better apart and free from the layers of anger, pain, dis-trust, etc... or we will find we really miss our time together and are willing to sacrifice certain needs to try to make it work. If one of us decides there is no turning back then that means it's just not meant to be. I am not sure if this is the right thing to do, but what we've been doing isn't working, and the history of the past tells me we can try, but the hard feelings will be back and we will both get angry once again...I really don't want that any more. I just want peace....

Love.......


----------



## CH

Wow, that brought me to tears.

So much love, anger, hurt and forgiveness all bundled up in that note to her.'

BTW, S4E, I really hope the best for you, you really deserve it.


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## oldmittens

S4E I hope things work out for you and you find the happiness you and your wife deserve.


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## BiggestJerk

Hey folks, can I join this discussion. Looks like you all have been really supporting and trying to help this young man for a while, I commend you. This is hard stuff. I noticed this thread because of its' title. I have been closer, and farther and closer to a decision...and strong, and weak and....weak for several years now. But maybe that's OK considering what is invested. I will try to be brief but...here goes.

My wife and I were high school sweet hearts, we have been together since 1984. Yes I did hear the air leave the room...lol. Sorry, humor is all you have left sometimes. You all have an image of grey haired, frumpy people right now huh...haha? Just to aid the accuracy of the picture, I am "allegedly" a better looking version of Tony Stark (the Iron Man character), and she is a very attractive tall thin blonde (yes still natural) that is accused of being the wife of our oldest son (creepy I know) when we are all out shopping, etc. So...we look very young for being together since the stone age. No surgery...I swear. I haven't even covered up my limited grey yet as it is apparently "distinguished". Thank you Jesus.

I don't know where to start or end, but I'm not happy and admit it, she's not happy and doesn't (that's one of the many problems). We have 3 kids, all great, normal, frustrating, amazing, beautiful kiddos. They are all bigger than us now...adults all or nearly in their own right (another MAJOR consideration). She is loyal to a fault, I am honest to a fault. If I could just ignore certain things and not really give a damn, our marriage would thrive superficially until death due us part. But I hate superficiality and insincerity. That's another story.

We have disagreements, problems, issues in every category pretty much. Sex, Communication, Occupation, Money, Child Rearing, Standards, Education, Health, Organization, Alcohol (hang on I need another drink), Spirituality....and several others I can't remember right now.

More on those later. Now some good stuff. We enjoy yard sales together, antiquing (can't afford it), art, exploring, travel (but never get to do it because the money thing), some hobbies, cuddling...what else...I know there's more but I'm pissed off at her right which doesn't help.

And now the ugly. I have had several affairs in the last 3 years. I have come clean on one and it's the only one where no intercourse was involved (yes that can happen) but I loved her. I miss her. She inspired me, challenged me (didn't just lay down and quit with everything, got pissed at me, made me think)...understood me. She was very smart and that stimulated me. She became my best friend, and we wanted to be lovers but...her husband was also my best friend. Yes, I am an ass to say the least. I've said me a lot I know but I have tried everything I can think of with my wife, then exhausted, come up with a new plan, again, and again....several times. No response, no change, same same. And before those of you in the school of "you shouldn't change" pipe up please think through...we all change each other. To state things like, "if you're trying to change her you don't really love her" or similar, come on. Clarify what I'm talking about in this area before carpet bombing OK? A quick example is kids. You all come up, together, with minimal, good, wholesome, acceptable standards and basic systems to ensure a reasonable level of success for life training. Grades, chores, associations, spiritual training, health, etc.....and all of it gets dropped out of just not paying attention time, and time, again (yes if I were a trust fund baby I could have been there every minute to do it myself but I also needed to support the family so thought it not unreasonable for her to manage some of the systems we came up with while I was supporting our financial present and future...yes we). 

I'm rambling now, lost my track. Anyway, as you can imagine there is much, much, much.....more after nearly 30 years together. So if you care to, ask me questions, make observations, thrash me (but don't be surprised if I enlighten you back...professionally of course), whatever. I'm a big boy, I can take it and you may just find the missing link that moves things forward in a positive way.

God bless.


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## ilou

Geezez. Hope the move went smoothly.


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## Struggling4ever

ilou said:


> Geezez. Hope the move went smoothly.


No move yet...no where to move, no money to do it. Sometimes I think I just need to suck it up, put a smile on my face and just make the best of what I have? I know that I have it better than most. Someone who is fun spirited, wants to be with me, and will do whatever I want..... I just wish I would've left back then, I would have felt more empowered and justified. To do it now when she had finally gone back to school and started therapy just seems wrong. But staying with her and having to accept all I know now after finally facing the truth instead of burying it seems wrong too... I'm sickened knowing what she was relly capable of...sex with both of us for who knows how long, lying, a vacation with him, thousands of dollars in jewelry and gifts...it's all too much! sigh......Argh:scratchhead:


----------



## Struggling4ever

BiggestJerk said:


> Hey folks, can I join this discussion. Looks like you all have been really supporting and trying to help this young man for a while, I commend you. This is hard stuff. I noticed this thread because of its' title. I have been closer, and farther and closer to a decision...and strong, and weak and....weak for several years now. But maybe that's OK considering what is invested. I will try to be brief but...here goes.
> 
> My wife and I were high school sweet hearts, we have been together since 1984. Yes I did hear the air leave the room...lol. Sorry, humor is all you have left sometimes. You all have an image of grey haired, frumpy people right now huh...haha? Just to aid the accuracy of the picture, I am "allegedly" a better looking version of Tony Stark (the Iron Man character), and she is a very attractive tall thin blonde (yes still natural) that is accused of being the wife of our oldest son (creepy I know) when we are all out shopping, etc. So...we look very young for being together since the stone age. No surgery...I swear. I haven't even covered up my limited grey yet as it is apparently "distinguished". Thank you Jesus.
> 
> I don't know where to start or end, but I'm not happy and admit it, she's not happy and doesn't (that's one of the many problems). We have 3 kids, all great, normal, frustrating, amazing, beautiful kiddos. They are all bigger than us now...adults all or nearly in their own right (another MAJOR consideration). She is loyal to a fault, I am honest to a fault. If I could just ignore certain things and not really give a damn, our marriage would thrive superficially until death due us part. But I hate superficiality and insincerity. That's another story.
> 
> We have disagreements, problems, issues in every category pretty much. Sex, Communication, Occupation, Money, Child Rearing, Standards, Education, Health, Organization, Alcohol (hang on I need another drink), Spirituality....and several others I can't remember right now.
> 
> More on those later. Now some good stuff. We enjoy yard sales together, antiquing (can't afford it), art, exploring, travel (but never get to do it because the money thing), some hobbies, cuddling...what else...I know there's more but I'm pissed off at her right which doesn't help.
> 
> And now the ugly. I have had several affairs in the last 3 years. I have come clean on one and it's the only one where no intercourse was involved (yes that can happen) but I loved her. I miss her. She inspired me, challenged me (didn't just lay down and quit with everything, got pissed at me, made me think)...understood me. She was very smart and that stimulated me. She became my best friend, and we wanted to be lovers but...her husband was also my best friend. Yes, I am an ass to say the least. I've said me a lot I know but I have tried everything I can think of with my wife, then exhausted, come up with a new plan, again, and again....several times. No response, no change, same same. And before those of you in the school of "you shouldn't change" pipe up please think through...we all change each other. To state things like, "if you're trying to change her you don't really love her" or similar, come on. Clarify what I'm talking about in this area before carpet bombing OK? A quick example is kids. You all come up, together, with minimal, good, wholesome, acceptable standards and basic systems to ensure a reasonable level of success for life training. Grades, chores, associations, spiritual training, health, etc.....and all of it gets dropped out of just not paying attention time, and time, again (yes if I were a trust fund baby I could have been there every minute to do it myself but I also needed to support the family so thought it not unreasonable for her to manage some of the systems we came up with while I was supporting our financial present and future...yes we).
> 
> I'm rambling now, lost my track. Anyway, as you can imagine there is much, much, much.....more after nearly 30 years together. So if you care to, ask me questions, make observations, thrash me (but don't be surprised if I enlighten you back...professionally of course), whatever. I'm a big boy, I can take it and you may just find the missing link that moves things forward in a positive way.
> 
> God bless.


So i looked at your "profile"...You join and don't start any threads, you make 1 post and 1 post only on my thread, and then you disappear with no more post? What gives? What's your real story and who are you? Maybe someone who was kicked off and you came back as another alias? Whatever.....


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## LongWalk

I read almost all your threads. Struggling4ever is really the right avatar for you because it has gone on so long.

At a couple of points you wrote that you had deleted your original threads because your wife found them hurtful. I can't understand how they hurt her. No one who comes to TAM knows your wife in real life. What on earth difference could the threads have made?

I think she didn't like them because they were a record/reflection of what truly happened. Your thoughts bothered her. The comments from those who condemned her bothered her. She wanted the bothersome judgment removed from history. You granted this request, effectively destroying yourself a second time. You were destroyed on Dday and again when you clicked the delete button. 

She has effectively reduced your contact and discourse with the TAMers who have meant a great deal to you. You labor over your words. You expressed yourself only to have her censor your anonymous discourse, your private musings in cyberspace. She scratched out the history of what happened. 

Did those details matter? Yes, very much. Once she made you cut out the important facts, it meant you would forget them. What leather coat? What sex acts? Who was the OM? All those things are now downplayed, dampened, painted over. You were not even allowed to retain this outlet. And so you wrote it again in truncated form. She set you off trying to recover again through writing.

The worst thing I read here was your letter of apology to her for ending your marriage. You should have written something short and direct and free from the heart. My words (reflecting my perception of how your feel based on my reading) would have been something like this:

Dear STBX,

You fvcked a man who pretended to be my friend. You fvcked him many times. I finally caught you when went on the honeymoon boat cruise with him. Your stinking cünt sisters were there and knew all about it. I hate them, too.

You took expensive gifts from him. You are not a whöre, but your soul is whörish. I could never really enjoy sex with you again. It was torture for us both. Perhaps my sexual rejection of you hurt. It was meant to. I drew it out, lingering over it while wishing some miracle would end the winter that descended upon our marital bed.

I was too cowardly to leave you and stayed another decade, wasting two lives, yours and mine. I hate myself for that. If there is any consolation, let us hope that your children can convince us that the family they had was worth our suffering.

I am leaving you now.

S4E


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## Struggling4ever

LongWalk said:


> I read almost all your threads. Struggling4ever is really the right avatar for you because it has gone on so long.
> 
> At a couple of points you wrote that you had deleted your original threads because your wife found them hurtful. I can't understand how they hurt her. No one who comes to TAM knows your wife in real life. What on earth difference could the threads have made?
> 
> I think she didn't like them because they were a record/reflection of what truly happened. Your thoughts bothered her. The comments from those who condemned her bothered her. She wanted the bothersome judgment removed from history. You granted this request, effectively destroying yourself a second time. You were destroyed on Dday and again when you clicked the delete button.
> 
> She has effectively reduced your contact and discourse with the TAMers who have meant a great deal to you. You labor over your words. You expressed yourself only to have her censor your anonymous discourse, your private musings in cyberspace. She scratched out the history of what happened.
> 
> Did those details matter? Yes, very much. Once she made you cut out the important facts, it meant you would forget them. *What leather coat? What sex acts? Who was the OM? All those things are now downplayed, dampened, painted over*. You were not even allowed to retain this outlet. And so you wrote it again in truncated form. She set you off trying to recover again through writing.
> 
> *The worst thing I read here was your letter of apology to her for ending your marriage. *You should have written something short and direct and free from the heart. My words (reflecting my perception of how your feel based on my reading) would have been something like this:
> 
> Dear STBX,
> 
> You fvcked a man who pretended to be my friend. You fvcked him many times. I finally caught you when went on the honeymoon boat cruise with him. Your stinking cünt sisters were there and knew all about it. I hate them, too.
> 
> You took expensive gifts from him. You are not a whöre, but your soul is whörish. I could never really enjoy sex with you again. It was torture for us both. Perhaps my sexual rejection of you hurt. It was meant to. I drew it out, lingering over it while wishing some miracle would end the winter that descended upon our marital bed.
> 
> I was too cowardly to leave you and stayed another decade, wasting two lives, yours and mine. I hate myself for that. If there is any consolation, let us hope that your children can convince us that the family they had was worth our suffering.
> 
> I am leaving you now.
> 
> S4E


I can't argue with you  You know me too well... I made the mistake of telling her I was on here and she of course came on to look. At that point I didn't know for sure where this was going to lead, she already had self esteem issues and the comments from others were very harsh to say the least. Trust me when I say that over the past 2 years I have said everything and anything that could be said! She didn't make me cut anything out - again, this was many years ago and although I was reliving it.. I had nothing to gain by destroying her self-esteem. She has been trying to better herself, finally going to therapy and she got her GED. This all came at her out of nowhere, just like the affair did to me.

I switched my avatar to S4E a long time ago and to be honest, I was blown away from your response here as I thought this post was long buried and I thank you for taking the time to read it and give me your thoughts! Harsh, maybe? But it is what it is, it was pretty effing harsh finding out what I found out and even harsher the way I found out so if the shoe fits....

My letter of apology...yeah I regret that! I have nothing to apologize for and while she was gone on her "cruise" with our daughter I was reflecting and I found that online and edited it to fit our situation. After reading it to her I realized it was just a sugar coated "you f#cked me over, I'm not happy, and this ain't working". Again...letter of aapology because of how I feel? I deserve to feel how ever the hell I want to feel and I know this! It's just after 30 years you know someone. She admits now that she learned through therapy that she liked the sex or she wouldn't have kept going back, she admits that she did think about leaving me but she knew he couldn't be faithful, she says she got greedy knowing he would by her anything and when I said there's a name for people who have sex for money..she said you don't have to remind me, I am ashamed of the person I became and I am no longer that person.

Your letter is better and more honest than mine..because of who I am, I would still edit it but it is closer to what I should have written than the one I gave her. How about;

Dear STBX,

You fvcked a man who pretended to be my friend. You fvcked him many times. I'll never know how often or for how long, but once was wrong.. more than once to me is unforgivable. I finally caught you when went on the honeymoon boat cruise with him to see what it would be like waking up next to this piece of shiot! Your stinking cünt sisters were there and knew all about it. You say they didn't know he was coming until it was too late? It was only too late once the ship left port! A phone call would have changed all that, but you are their sister.

You took expensive gifts from him. You are not a whöre, but your behavior was whörish. I could never really enjoy sex with you again. I tried but it was never the same and he was often there with us which ruined it for me. Perhaps my sexual rejection of you hurt. It hurt me too. I drew it out, lingering over it while wishing some miracle would end the winter that descended upon our marital bed and marriage.

I was too cowardly to leave you and stayed another decade. I wish I could have been honest with myself and with you. I hate myself for that. The years had many great moments and we were both there to see our kids grow up into fine adults - I will never regret that, but I'd be lieing if I said I was ok, I'm not and staying was the wrong choice and going through all of this for a second time while in therapy was one of the hardest things I've ever been through outside of the day I found out! If there is any consolation, let us hope that your children can convince us that the family they had was worth our suffering.

I wish us both better days, but it's time for us to realize we are 2 good people who both deserve to be happy and this is no longer working.
Good luck.....
Me


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## LongWalk

Well skip the letter and just send her this


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## Struggling4ever

the guy said:


> I think the living sitch (seperate rooms) is unhealthy. Your not making a clean break here, but prolonging the missery by staying in the same home. I think you take the big step and move now, it my clean up some of the emotional pain, and give you the *real* space you need.
> 
> I understand your deal, I've read your other threads, but you want space, but still stay? It sound like you can have healthy a relationship with her in the future, but you just live to damb close to each other!
> 
> Move already!!!!!!


I decided to re-read this thread and I did sugarcoat things for sure... Yes, she is a good woman, but when she is angry - look out! She spews some seriously angry stuff. She can only act sweet so long (and she does it well and I believe she's sincere), but after a few drinks if she gets angry..the passive side leaves and the aggressive side can be down right scary. I did 6 months plus of therapy...re-lived it all and it sucked! I had to do it all alone as my wife didn't want to go back to that "dark place". She said she didn't like who she was and didn't want to go back there? Neither did I, but I had to. It was possibly more painful than the original time because I faced what really happened instead of blame shifting and making her a victim. 

Even though we have had many great times in the last 12 years and I don't think it would happen again... I just can't look at her the same way anymore. I've lost trust and respect...2 key elements. I seriously wish I could get it back, but it's just not there. When I think about her at times I feel hope and love, but then we spend time together and I feel sad and angry and sometimes even disgust..And she knows this because she says she can feel it. She finally has faced that we are headed for divorce and it kills me to accept it but the option of staying seems worse. After trying to be in the same room again I finally moved into a spare room on March 1, and we haven't had sex since my birthday..in September.. I plan on moving out soon, but we have so much to do on our house. She wants to stay friends and I do too, but it's hard because I know she wants more... a little distance will be good.

I actually have a new woman friend - I stress FRIEND...and seriously nothing more - she was in an abusive marriage for many years (physical and mental), and it took a long time for her to leave and the divorce was long and painful. She's a professional woman who's very petite, attractive, and very athletic.. We have been out together with groups of friends...we have been dancing and motorcycling on a few occasions, and we went bicycling on 1 occasion. She has many other male and female friends that she does things with too. She stresses that she is not interested in a relationship or sex..she just enjoys having friends to have fun with. That's all I need at this point in my life, but it's still been good for me and helped me to realize there can be fun after marriage...


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## Struggling4ever

oldmittens said:


> Hello S4E hope this are well. Was hoping you could update us all did you divorce your wife after???


I wish I could say it's all behind me. but no... I just came back on here and to see how long I've been in limbo disgust me... But I have tried to keep a positive attitude and I have been going out on my own about 2 nights a week. I was planning on moving out memorial Day but then she finally got her GED and is having a big birthday party / graduation celebration on the 29th. I'm sticking around to try to help get things done around the house... Unfortunately our anniversary is a few days later and I seriously can't celebrate it...so I may get out sooner and come back for the party. She keeps hinting about our annual motorcycle trip to Sturgis in August saying she didn't go last year and she really wants to go... I just say find a friend and go then.... If I don't leave it will never end...


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