# Swinging



## WallaceBea

Do you and your husband swing? Are you opposed to swinging? 

My husband and I are not opposed to swinging, but we definitely are not ready yet. We simply do not want to share each other right now. We have talked about swinging though, and both agree we could see ourselves possibly being into swinging at some point. 

That being said - several of our friends are swingers, and some are going through some emotional issues right now as a result of their swinging. 

If we were to swing, we definitely wouldn't want any drama. That may be easier said than done though. 

What are your thoughts?


----------



## Holland

I don't care what other people do. 

But for me, my partner and our relationship it will never happen. I have to be honest and say that while it may be hot sexually, I would not survive it emotionally. I expect and give 100% loyalty to my partner which includes 100% emotional loyalty. Swinging or the involvement of any other person in our sexual life would destroy that.

If I was in a non committed relationship then yes I could go there but my love for my partner brings out a fierce, natural need to protect our emotional bond.


----------



## sparkyjim

Ashalicious said:


> If we were to swing, we definitely wouldn't want any drama.


I am pretty sure that everyone who tried to swing and had it go horribly wrong also felt this way...

And I have yet to hear of anyone who said, "You know what I need? A little more drama in my life, that's what I need..."

In my opinion it is playing with fire, and more a fantasy than a reality.


----------



## over20

We were asked to swing about 5 yrs ago. We did think about it for a while, it sounded sexy and naughty... but then decided NO WAY. We have too much of a great thing to share it with anyone else.


----------



## xakulax

I here swinger say in forms that swingeing is a marriage amplifier it can make a strong marriage stronger and a weak marriage dead personally I never understood point of it all if you want to have sex with other people then why not stay single the whole point of getting marred is to comment your self mined and body to one another if you relegate it to just one then it feel more like a friends with benefits relationship then marriage at lest that how I feel about it.



PS:There's also that hard pill to swallow seeing your SO with somebody else sexual I remember reading a post from a swinging forms site where guy posted how after 20 years in the lifestyle as DJ he couldn't count how many marriages he seen go chernobyl out of the thousands that try many are doomed to fail


----------



## 6301

Th only thing I could tell you and no, I'm not into swinging but have enough common sense to understand that if it's going to work for you and your husband, there had better be unbreakable rules that you both accept and live up to. Then you two better have a ton of trust in each other.

I would think that the hardest part for you two would be seeing him with another woman and he seeing you with another man and wondering if that women is a better lover than you or in his mind if the other guy is a better lover than him.

You know what? either buy a really big mirror or a good camcorder with a tripod and knock yourself out without all the hassle.


----------



## xakulax

6301 said:


> Th only thing I could tell you and no, I'm not into swinging but have enough common sense to understand that if it's going to work for you and your husband, there had better be unbreakable rules that you both accept and live up to. Then you two better have a ton of trust in each other.
> 
> I would think that the hardest part for you two would be seeing him with another woman and he seeing you with another man and *wondering if that women is a better lover than you or in his mind if the other guy is a better lover than him*.
> 
> You know what? either buy a really big mirror or a good camcorder with a tripod and knock yourself out without all the hassle.



Therein lies the problem there is always going to be somebody better sexually ether bigger boobs, hotter body, longer member or simply more experience once you open Pandora box it's hard to close


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

I never understood the attraction to pursuing an activity that has such minimal upside gains with a significant downside risk. It's a dumb risk to take IMHO.

Plus, I don't share with others when it comes to love...


----------



## PBear

My SO and I have done some swinging. Mostly in sex clubs, which proved to be a pretty low pressure way to add some thrill. We'll probably do it again, when the opportunity presents itself.

We haven't seen any emotional fallout from swinging. But there's lots of risks, as well. It's definitely not for everyone.

C


----------



## donotdoit

I registered just so I could answer your query. Yes, my wife and I did try swinging one time. We were just like you and your husband, it sounded sexy and we convinced ourselves it would be just fine. The reality turned out to be very different. I found that seeing my wife with another man was not as sexy as I thought it would be. The other woman didn't do things right. She was very eager but she wasn't my wife. She didn't touch me right, she didn't feel right, she didn't smell wonderful like my wife. 

My advice, as someone who's been there... do not do it. Leave it in the fantasy realm and have fun with the fantasy. Everyone is perfect in fantasyland. Not so in real life.

We wish you well.


----------



## kitty2013

Ashalicious said:


> Do you and your husband swing? Are you opposed to swinging?
> 
> My husband and I are not opposed to swinging, but we definitely are not ready yet. We simply do not want to share each other right now. We have talked about swinging though, and both agree we could see ourselves possibly being into swinging at some point.
> 
> That being said - several of our friends are swingers, and some are going through some emotional issues right now as a result of their swinging.
> 
> If we were to swing, we definitely wouldn't want any drama. That may be easier said than done though.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


I am opposed to swinging


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I can't really stand even the thought of another man penetrating my wife. It's completely off limits. I feel like I might be ok with MFF, but even that my suspicious nature tells me to stay away from.


----------



## treyvion

WorkingOnMe said:


> I can't really stand even the thought of another man penetrating my wife. It's completely off limits. I feel like I might be ok with MFF, but even that my suspicious nature tells me to stay away from.


Many of the men here on TAM did not have the choice whether their wife would be penetrated by another man or not.


----------



## xakulax

WorkingOnMe said:


> I can't really stand even the thought of another man penetrating my wife. It's completely off limits. I feel like I might be ok with MFF, but even that my suspicious nature tells me to stay away from.




That's smart usually in that scenario if the wife suggest a mff threesome its done to set the husband up for mmf threesome or worse any and all spouses should be suspicious of threesome it's a subtle way of indoctrinating you to the idea of have a third of fourth party in your marriage.


----------



## treyvion

xakulax said:


> That's smart usually in that scenario if the wife suggest a mff threesome its done to set the husband up for mmf threesome or worse any and all spouses should be suspicious of threesome it's a subtle way of indoctrinating you to the idea of have a third of fourth party in your marriage.


That's what they do. A good answer for a non-swinger would be "you can have all the sexual partners you want, I'm fine with that. But you will be single"


----------



## Theseus

I see no problem with it, as long as both partners trust each other and there is no coercion involved. 

Yes, a lot of couples who try it end up splitting from each other, but that's also true of most monogamous couples I have known.


----------



## happi_g_more2

treyvion said:


> Many of the men here on TAM did not have the choice whether their wife would be penetrated by another man or not.


true, however, thats not whats being discussed. We're talking swinging, not cheating


----------



## BashfulB

happi_g_more2 said:


> true, however, thats not whats being discussed. We're talking swinging, not cheating


But they bring out similar emotional distress.

I was involved in swinging with on old girlfriend of mine many years ago and even though it was fun at first, it slowly destroyed our relationship due to jealousy and insecurity on both sides. 

Seeing my girlfriend having multiple orgasms with another guy was a blow to me emotionally, even though I was in denial at first. 

OP, how do you know your husband would not react the same way if you were having sex with a guy and he was pushing all the right buttons and lighting you up like a torch? How do you know how you would react when your husband hooks up with a 10, a supermodel, with perfect face and body and he doesn't want anything or anyone else that night?

OP you need to think long and hard about this and run every iteration and ramification through your mind before you go through with this.


----------



## over20

BashfulBull said:


> But they bring out similar emotional distress.
> 
> I was involved in swinging with on old girlfriend of mine many years ago and even though it was fun at first, it slowly destroyed our relationship due to jealousy and insecurity on both sides.
> 
> Seeing my girlfriend having multiple orgasms with another guy was a blow to me emotionally, even though I was in denial at first.
> 
> OP, how do you know your husband would not react the same way if you were having sex with a guy and he was pushing all the right buttons and lighting you up like a torch? How do you know how you would react when your husband hooks up with a 10, a supermodel, with perfect face and body and he doesn't want anything or anyone else that night?
> 
> OP you need to think long and hard about this and run every iteration and ramification through your mind before you go through with this.


:iagree::iagree:


----------



## Caribbean Man

Theseus said:


> I see no problem with it, as long as both partners trust each other and there is no coercion involved.
> 
> Yes, a lot of couples who try it end up splitting from each other, but that's also true of most monogamous couples I have known.


And I suppose securing you luxury vehicle when you park it in a private parking lot , or securing your home when you leave for work is also useless because many people who do , still suffer from vehicular theft and burglary anyway.

But my guess is that it all comes down to what value you place on your possessions right?

If you value your vehicle , you will secure it no matter if chances are , car thieves might still take it . At least you want to make it a little harder for them and decrease the chances of it being stolen.

Same thing with your house , you won't leave the doors and windows wide open when nobody's at home or at night when you go to bed , for the same reason . You want to protect it , even though chances are that a burglar could still force his way in.

So basically , people tend to protect things they value most.
Even when the chances of loosing it are high ,sometimes they would even protect it with their life.

I was thinking maybe that same logic can be applied to marriage .
If your spouse means a lot to you , then why would you deliberately take a chance at loosing them ?
To prove what?
That you are secure and emotionally strong?

There are many other ways to discover that with a much lower risk benefit ratio .

But it all comes down to the value you place on your relationship , versus the value you place of feeling of a temporary sexual high.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Ashalicious said:


> Do you and your husband swing? Are you opposed to swinging?
> 
> My husband and I are not opposed to swinging, but we definitely are not ready yet. We simply do not want to share each other right now. We have talked about swinging though, and both agree we could see ourselves possibly being into swinging at some point.
> 
> That being said - several of our friends are swingers, and some are going through some emotional issues right now as a result of their swinging.
> 
> If we were to swing, we definitely wouldn't want any drama. That may be easier said than done though.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


There is an old game that's often played by adrenalin junkies and high stakes gamblers for lots of money.

It's a simple game.

All you need is a .38 calibre revolver and one round of ammunition.
You place the round in the chamber of the swing out cylinder and snap it back in. Then you spin the cylinder till it stops , place the gun to your temple and pull the trigger.

Because the cylinder can carry up to six rounds , there is a one in six chance that when you pull that trigger , the gun will fire , which in mathematical terms is really a small probability. So your chances of winning lots of money are very high. Much higher than if you played the hundred million lottery.

But here's the problem.
If you spend twenty dollars on lottery tickets , when you don't win, you loose just twenty dollars.
When you play Russian Roulette ,if you don't win , you loose your life.

Of course lots of people play Russian Roulette and win. 

The chances of your marriage surviving the swinging lifestyle is much , much lower than if you and your husband played Russian Roulette just for the thrill.

With Russian Roulette , your chances of surviving are six to one.
With swinging , your chances of surviving are much , much less.


----------



## DoF

OP, your friends are swingers? That's mistake #1. You do realize that longer you remain friends with them the more you will want to be like them correct? That will just happen naturally, heck it's happening as we speak (based on your thread).

You and your husband need to figure out what you like/desire etc without ANY influence from "friends" etc.

If you do decide to proceed down that path I hope you are both ready to put your relationship on the line, cause that's exactly what will happen (just a matter of time).

If you think your relationship is tested/hard with 2 people only, you will be in shock what drama/problems you will encounter when you add people to that equation.

IMO, OP should find new friends......fast......

"There are 2 kinds of people, followers and leaders...."

"If you are around someone long enough, no matter how much of a leader one might be, you will become like them slowly."<<<< by me


----------



## ReformedHubby

I call BS on most of the swingers that claim to be happy. I've known quite a few of them and I'm just not buying it. Ever heard the saying misery loves company. They've already crossed the point of no return, so basically they are now trying to make a chicken salad out of chicken sh!t. You can't undo it, even if you try it only once.


----------



## Married but Happy

ReformedHubby said:


> I call BS on most of the swingers that claim to be happy. I've known quite a few of them and I'm just not buying it. Ever heard the saying misery loves company. They've already crossed the point of no return, so basically they are now trying to make a chicken salad out of chicken sh!t. You can't undo it, even if you try it only once.


You'd be wrong, and I suspect you are speaking from speculation and ignorance, not experience and facts.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Just being real for me it says a lot about how a man feels about a woman (or doesn't feel) if he is willing to just share her with others. I used to work with an exec whose wife cheated on him. His reaction to it was different than most. He suggested that they become swingers otherwise he would not agree to reconciliation. 

She agreed to try it assuming this is what he wanted to make him happy. The reality is he cared absolutely nothing about her anymore. He was just using her for no strings attached sex with other women, and he was asking her to do all sorts of crazy things with men to "make him happy". He divorced her anyway which was his plan all along. Really sad story. Even though she cheated on him, I don't think she deserved that. It was pretty twisted in my opinion. He told me all this over drinks like it was no big deal.


----------



## committed4ever

At some point boundaries need to be established or us humans become more like animals living out in the wild.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Married but Happy said:


> You'd be wrong, and I suspect you are speaking from speculation and ignorance, not experience and facts.


Well...you're a swinger and I'm not. There is no middle ground here. I will always think your viewpoint is ignorant and you will feel the same about mine, I'm good with that. OP, asked for opinions. You are free to give her yours.


----------



## Married but Happy

We've been swinging for about 6 years, and have had an open relationship for 14. At the various socials and activities, we've met literally thousands of people who participate. Over the years, the majority of those people show up again and again. We personally know a couple hundred well enough to know their stories.

All of the negative relationship comments stated by various posters are only true for a minority of these people - there is a huge amount of negative exaggeration and falsehood wrongly being presented as fact. Those who have serious problems are usually the people who get into it with preexisting relationship problems. Some develop problems, mostly because they haven't really thought it through and discussed the possible issues (particularly jealousy), or when one goes along with it reluctantly (if the couple has mismatched sex drives, that's a bad sign too). A good, strong relationship tends to stay that way, and we've seen many even improve (ours has). We have seen fewer breakups and divorces amongst the swingers we know than in the non-swingers we know, and there is definitely far less cheating.

That said, IMO most people aren't attitudinally or emotionally equipped to handle it, and should not try it.


----------



## theroad

Ashalicious said:


> Do you and your husband swing? Are you opposed to swinging?
> 
> My husband and I are not opposed to swinging, but we definitely are not ready yet. We simply do not want to share each other right now. We have talked about swinging though, and both agree we could see ourselves possibly being into swinging at some point.
> 
> That being said - several of our friends are swingers, and some are going through some emotional issues right now as a result of their swinging.
> 
> If we were to swing, we definitely wouldn't want any drama. That may be easier said than done though.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


All the people that are now having issues swinging where spurting off their mouths just as you are now.

Marriages are meant for two, not three, four, or more.


----------



## happy as a clam

Nope, couldn't do it, no way.

The bond my SO and I have is unbelievable. The depth of our connection, intimacy, our private jokes, that feeling of you + me = us. Sounds cliche, but we really are soulmates. There is no way I would risk damaging that connection. I'm way too territorial to share, and I think he would go ballistic if he saw me with another man.

In theory, I guess it works for some people, just wouldn't work for me.


----------



## theroad

happi_g_more2 said:


> true, however, thats not whats being discussed. We're talking swinging, not cheating


Starts out as swinging. Though I have seen many a BH become uncomfortable because the WW started getting to close to the OM. BH tells the WW no more. Then the WW goes underground and starts her affair.

Too many times I have seen the WW start affairs after they started swinging.

Too many times I have seen WW's refuse to stop swinging.

Too many times I have seen the WW D her BH and go to the OM.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Married but Happy said:


> * Some develop problems, mostly because they haven't really thought it through and discussed the possible issues (particularly jealousy),*


This ^^^right there is the problem with swinging , polyamorus relationships, threesomes and so forth.

In order for one to enjoy these type of activities whilst in a a monogamous relationship they must first pass through some sort of behavioral reconditioning , so that the natural response to the external stimuli of their loved one being intimate with another person is neutral.

The problem is , jealousy is a NORMAL ,HEALTHY, ACCEPTABLE human emotion in any relationship. Extreme jealousy, like anything else that is done in extreme measures, is unhealthy.

Humans don't learn how to be jealous, they are BORN THAT WAY.
Even a little baby would become jealous and throw a tantrum, if his/ her mother holds another baby in her arms. Where did they learn that?
In order to remove that jealousy from a baby , a mother would have to recondition that baby to respond differently whenever she holds another baby, in the process , breaking the intimate bond between mother and child, and exposing the child to confusion trauma.

That, in my opinion is what happens when people get into swinging and such lifestyles. The only difference is that often times the fear of loosing their partner is greater than the unconditioned response of jealousy, so they are forcefully conditioned through covert , emotional blackmail to respond differently to jealousy.
But jealousy cannot be rooted out because it is part of what makes us human , just like the fear of falling.

IMO, that's why when things go wrong in that lifestyle , it is virtually impossible for the relationship to recover.

Human beings can be conditioned to accept ANYTHING, even if it is inimical to their own interests.

Pavlovian Conditioning .

Hence the high casualty rate.

Some severely abused women are known to profess their love for their abusive partners , and REFUSE to leave even when a good opportunity to do so. 

Some sexually abused kids are known to bond with the perpetrator.

Both conditioned responses .

BTW, all the couples that I know were involved, [ just a few] are either divorced or their marriage is on the rocks.


----------



## xakulax

ReformedHubby said:


> Just being real for me it says a lot about how a man feels about a woman (or doesn't feel) if he is willing to just share her with others. I used to work with an exec whose wife cheated on him. His reaction to it was different than most. He suggested that they become swingers otherwise he would not agree to reconciliation.
> 
> She agreed to try it assuming this is what he wanted to make him happy. The reality is he cared absolutely nothing about her anymore. He was just using her for no strings attached sex with other women, and he was asking her to do all sorts of crazy things with men to "make him happy". He divorced her anyway which was his plan all along. Really sad story. Even though she cheated on him, I don't think she deserved that. It was pretty twisted in my opinion. He told me all this over drinks like it was no big deal.




Dame that's F'ed up


----------



## Dad&Hubby

Ashalicious said:


> Do you and your husband swing? Are you opposed to swinging?
> 
> My husband and I are not opposed to swinging, but we definitely are not ready yet. We simply do not want to share each other right now. We have talked about swinging though, and both agree we could see ourselves possibly being into swinging at some point.
> 
> That being said - several of our friends are swingers, and some are going through some emotional issues right now as a result of their swinging.
> 
> If we were to swing, *we definitely wouldn't want any drama. *That may be easier said than done though.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


My thoughts are if you're married and have sex with someone who isn't your spouse...there will be drama. Best case scenario would be that it remained internally within yourself and/or internally within your spouse.

The moment an outside person does something for one of the spouses that they love and that their spouse can't do (whether it be sexual technique, physical attributes...whatever) that will lead to jealousy and or insecurity. You have to be 100% comfortable and confident in order to swing, and let's be honest, how often are 2 people 100% comfortable and confident throughout their marriage.

What happens if the wife gets pregnant, puts on a few pounds and the husband keeps bringing in younger women who have much better bodies.

What happens if another man completely rocks the wife with orgasms in a way the husband never has.

It's just asking for drama. Not to mention if you stay with specific partners, there'll be emotional attachment developing. This isn't a maybe, it's a definite. If you keep having sex with someone and it's good sex, you will start to feel emotions towards that person. To me, that's the biggest danger.

Is it possible to be swingers and have a strong marriage....yes, there are people who do it.

Can you do it without drama.....ehhh I'd wager no. There's ALWAYS drama when it comes to sex.


----------



## DoF

I agree with above. Way too risky IMO and will only lead to bad things IMO.

Don't do it OP and also separate yourself from your swinger "friends'. They are already having way too much influence on you......


----------



## Married but Happy

Caribbean Man said:


> The problem is , jealousy is a NORMAL ,HEALTHY, ACCEPTABLE human emotion in any relationship. Extreme jealousy, like anything else that is done in extreme measures, is unhealthy.


Anger and rage are normal, and often lead to violence, which - like jealousy - often has negative consequences. We can healthily unlearn the violence response, and can healthily unlearn the jealousy response. Yes, they both have a purpose, but often get out of hand.

Humans are also naturally promiscuous maters (but range from extremely promiscuous to very monogamous), but we condition monogamy via society and culture.

Conditioned responses can be good or bad, useful or not. Depending on what you want to accomplish and your personal values and goals, you can accept your existing conditioning or overcome it. The conditioning and instinctual responses vary in intensity from person to person as well. So even natural emotions can vary in intensity and manifestation, but we can choose how we respond to them.


----------



## xakulax

If someone where to ask me do you think swinging is a good idea I would suggest this a test run. Go out one night to a club with your SO set at a table out sight and let your partner openly flirt and dance with other of the opposite sex as you watch them if something as simple as flirting and dancing causes jealousy rear its ugly head then you should ask your self how you would feel if your SO had gone all the way.


My question OP is what are you hoping to gain from that lifestyle and what are you willing to risk to get it.


----------



## MSP

Married but Happy said:


> . . . amongst the swingers we know . . . there is definitely far less cheating.


Cheating, as in having sex with someone else?


----------



## MSP

Married but Happy said:


> Humans are also naturally promiscuous maters (but range from extremely promiscuous to very monogamous), but we condition monogamy via society and culture.


Actually, in virtually every culture from time immemorial women have only married one man and then stuck with him until death. Polygamy has been common through the ages, but really only in men having multiple wives. I can only think of one exception and that one is somewhat unconfirmed. 

Completely open sexuality has only ever occurred shortly before the collapse of a society and pretty much just among the decadent rich classes, rather than throughout the entire society.


----------



## Caribbean Man

MSP said:


> *Completely open sexuality has only ever occurred shortly before the collapse of a society and pretty much just among the decadent rich classes, rather than throughout the entire society.*


Exactly.

That's because monogamy is a social construct , designed to build societies, and bring social order.


----------



## Married but Happy

MSP said:


> Actually, in virtually every culture from time immemorial women have only married one man and then stuck with him until death. Polygamy has been common through the ages, but really only in men having multiple wives. I can only think of one exception and that one is somewhat unconfirmed.
> 
> Completely open sexuality has only ever occurred shortly before the collapse of a society and pretty much just among the decadent rich classes, rather than throughout the entire society.


I think your information is incorrect. I suggest you read the book Amazon.com: Sex at Dawn: How We Mate, Why We Stray, and What It Means for Modern Relationships eBook: Christopher Ryan, Cacilda Jetha: Kindle Store

Monogamy is a recent construct in human relationships. Most likely, failing societies have lost their social cohesion leading to promiscuity, but that's a symptom, not a cause.


----------



## Married but Happy

MSP said:


> Cheating, as in having sex with someone else?


No. Cheating is *non-consensual *sex with someone else.

It can still be technical infidelity, which is why I try to make a distinction between cheating and infidelity - the former is wrong, while the latter is only wrong if it's non-consensual.


----------



## DoF

Married but Happy said:


> No. Cheating is *non-consensual *sex with someone else.
> 
> It can still be technical infidelity, which is why I try to make a distinction between cheating and infidelity - the former is wrong, while the latter is only wrong if it's non-consensual.


You will not know and have 0 control of your feelings. So there might be a point when you are having sex with someone and your feelings kick in.

Is that cheating?

Or how do you deal with a situation when your husband falls hard for someone they were having sex with? It's only natural that this sort of thing can happen from the consequences of sexual activity (I would think).


----------



## Caribbean Man

Married but Happy said:


> Anger and rage are normal, and often lead to violence, which - like jealousy - often has negative consequences. We can healthily unlearn the violence response, and can healthily unlearn the jealousy response. Yes, they both have a purpose, but often get out of hand.
> 
> Humans are also naturally promiscuous maters (but range from extremely promiscuous to very monogamous), but we condition monogamy via society and culture.
> 
> Conditioned responses can be good or bad, useful or not. Depending on what you want to accomplish and your personal values and goals, you can accept your existing conditioning or overcome it. The conditioning and instinctual responses vary in intensity from person to person as well. So even natural emotions can vary in intensity and manifestation, but we can choose how we respond to them.


The fundamentals of your theory is correct, and I agree with some of it.

But while anger and rage might be normal , it doesn't naturally lead to violence. One has to choose to act violently, that's the reason the average person doesn't have to go through any conditioning to be able to express anger in a safe way. We are cultured to use restraint. Hence the social order.

There are some people who have to go through anger management courses [ conditioning] because they're wired badly.
Their response is excessive , can be destructive and harm others, just like excessive jealousy.

The problem with the conditioning that takes place in swinging and so forth is that it takes normal people with healthy emotional balances and tries to condition them to accept behavior which is beyond what is accepted by mainstream culture and which is inimical to their interests.


----------



## xakulax

This thread starting to turn in to my human sexuality in sociology class from last semester.


----------



## Married but Happy

Caribbean Man said:


> The problem with the conditioning that takes place in swinging and so forth is that it takes normal people with healthy emotional balances and tries to condition them to accept behavior which is beyond what is accepted by mainstream culture and which is inimical to their interests.


Thank you for acknowledging at least some of my points.

I understand what you're saying in the part I quoted. However, I think you are making an unsubstantiated assumption that swinging behavior is inimical to a couple's interests. In some cases that may be true, in many others it is not, especially if they have mutually agreed to pursue it.

_More than half of all couples are swingers_ - it's just that one of the spouses hasn't been informed or consented! It would seem that sex with someone other than your spouse is a cultural and human norm (which makes cheating mainstream, even if taboo), and IMO it's better (and more fun) to deal with that issue head on and work out a mutually agreeable way to handle it.


----------



## DoF

Married but Happy said:


> Thank you for acknowledging at least some of my points.
> 
> I understand what you're saying in the part I quoted. However, I think you are making an unsubstantiated assumption that swinging behavior is inimical to a couple's interests. In some cases that may be true, in many others it is not, especially if they have mutually agreed to pursue it.
> 
> _More than half of all couples are swingers_ - it's just that one of the spouses hasn't been informed or consented! It would seem that sex with someone other than your spouse is a cultural and human norm (which makes cheating mainstream, even if taboo), and IMO it's better (and more fun) to deal with that issue head on and work out a mutually agreeable way to handle it.



I prefer the "not staying with you if you mess around" approach

There is not much room for anything else.....really


----------



## JCD

Married but Happy said:


> Thank you for acknowledging at least some of my points.
> 
> I understand what you're saying in the part I quoted. However, I think you are making an unsubstantiated assumption that swinging behavior is inimical to a couple's interests. In some cases that may be true, in many others it is not, especially if they have mutually agreed to pursue it.
> 
> _More than half of all couples are swingers_ - it's just that one of the spouses hasn't been informed or consented! It would seem that sex with someone other than your spouse is a cultural and human norm (which makes cheating mainstream, even if taboo), and IMO it's better (and more fun) to deal with that issue head on and work out a mutually agreeable way to handle it.


Almost everyone wants the right to screw other people.

Almost everyone has a problem reciprocating that right to their spouse.

Therein lies the fatal flaw of 'swinging'.


----------



## DoF

Stonewall said:


> The belief that you can swing without drama is rather like having the unwavering belief that you will be able to retire wealthy on your lottery winnings!


I agree

And you can take "swinging" completely out of perspective here.

ANYTIME You deal with people (friendship, family or whatever)........it ALWAYS = more problems/drama.

Now you see why I stay away from people, I have enough problems of my own to deal with. 

As Stalin would say "No man, no problem"

Over the years I just found people to be SO full of themselves/selfish etc (myself included). I'm at a point where I have very little to 0 desire to have any friends AT ALL. But I do keep in the back of my mind that perhaps I've been dealing with LOTS of ****ty people over the years...and try to be optimistic. 

Perhaps I'm easily satisfied and having my wife/family is enough for my life. Friendships at work are enough to give me my social dose I guess.


----------



## Married but Happy

JCD said:


> Almost everyone wants the right to screw other people.
> 
> *Almost everyone has a problem reciprocating that right to their spouse.*
> Therein lies the fatal flaw of 'swinging'.


You are absolutely correct.

*And that is precisely why there are 10x to 50x more cheaters than swingers.*


----------



## Machiavelli

Ashalicious said:


> Do you and your husband swing? Are you opposed to swinging?
> 
> My husband and I are not opposed to swinging, but we definitely are not ready yet. We simply do not want to share each other right now. We have talked about swinging though, and both agree we could see ourselves possibly being into swinging at some point.
> 
> That being said - several of our friends are swingers, and some are going through some emotional issues right now as a result of their swinging.
> 
> If we were to swing, we definitely wouldn't want any drama. That may be easier said than done though.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


If you swing, there will be drama. Back in the late 70's and early 80's I knew a lot of swingers and open marriage people. I worked at a place where an inordinate number of women were employed who were into it, so i heard a lot of wild stories, since they were trying to get me to participate, even though I was single (bodybuilder). Everything they said about it was positive and it really sounded like fun to me, but most divorced over the years. Plus, only a couple of them really hot and most were downright marginal, to be more than fair. Also, the only divorced girl I ever dated (very briefly, but she was hot) was an ex-swinger. And they all said swinging had nothing to do with the divorce. However, that was BS, since either the wives or the husbands got too close to one of their playmates and blew up the marriage.

My advice is to sit back and watch what happens to your friends.


----------



## DoF

Machiavelli said:


> My advice is to sit back and watch what happens to your friends.


Yep, grab popcorn and be ready for good laughs.

Better yet, find new friends....it's no different than having "single" friends while in a relationships. These people will just put you in uncomfortable/inappropriate situations.....somewhere along the line.


----------



## Machiavelli

xakulax said:


> That's smart usually in that scenario if the wife suggest a mff threesome its done to set the husband up for mmf threesome or worse any and all spouses should be suspicious of threesome it's a subtle way of indoctrinating you to the idea of have a third of fourth party in your marriage.


Well, you just have to lay down the law and tell her MMF is never going to happen. She may whine, but she'll love you more for it.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Married but Happy said:


> Thank you for acknowledging at least some of my points.
> 
> I understand what you're saying in the part I quoted. However, I think you are making an unsubstantiated assumption that swinging behavior is inimical to a couple's interests. In some cases that may be true, in many others it is not, especially if they have mutually agreed to pursue it.
> 
> _More than half of all couples are swingers_ - it's just that one of the spouses hasn't been informed or consented! It would seem that sex with someone other than your spouse is a cultural and human norm (which makes cheating mainstream, even if taboo), and IMO it's better (and more fun) to deal with that issue head on and work out a mutually agreeable way to handle it.



I understand your position , because I remember when you and I were discussing this some months ago on my " threesomes and so fourth " thread, and the points you raised. 
I think back then we both agreed that it can work for some who understand it.

I am biased for monogamy , so we would never really see eye to eye on this issue.
I must acknowledge the fact that you have been doing it for so many years so , it has worked for you and your wife.

But from our conversations [ I hope I'm not mixing you up with someone else] I think its a difficult thing to manage with very high risks , and everytime I see the dialogue on TAM ,I wonder if the rewards outweigh the risks. I wonder if it is really worth it.

I guess , like you said, it depends on the people involved.


----------



## jaharthur

Married but Happy said:


> I think your information is incorrect. I suggest you read the book Amazon.com: Sex at Dawn: How We Mate, Why We Stray, and What It Means for Modern Relationships eBook: Christopher Ryan, Cacilda Jetha: Kindle Store
> 
> Monogamy is a recent construct in human relationships. Most likely, failing societies have lost their social cohesion leading to promiscuity, but that's a symptom, not a cause.


Written by two people without credentials in the area and critiqued by qualified academics in the area. Just sayin'


----------



## Married but Happy

jaharthur said:


> Written by two people without credentials in the area and critiqued by qualified academics in the area. Just sayin'


I believe you are mistaken. And I would hope that any controversial idea would be critiqued. That his thesis was critiqued by qualified academics shows that there must be some subtance to the ideas.



> Christopher Ryan, *Ph.D.*Christopher received a BA in English and American literature from Hobart College in 1984 and an *MA and Ph.D. in research psychology* at Saybrook University twenty years later. He spent the intervening decades traveling around the world, living in unexpected places working at very odd jobs (e.g., gutting salmon in Alaska, teaching English to prostitutes in Bangkok and self-defense to land-reform activists in Mexico, managing commercial real-estate in New York's Diamond District, helping Spanish physicians publish their research). Somewhere along the way, he decided to pursue doctoral studies in psychology. Drawing upon his multi-cultural experience, Christopher's research focused on trying to distinguish the universally human from the cultural. His doctoral dissertation analyzes the prehistoric roots of human sexuality, and was guided by the world-renowned psychologist, Stanley Krippner.
> 
> Based in Barcelona since the mid 1990s, Christopher has lectured at the University of Barcelona Medical School and worked as a consultant at various local hospitals. He's given presentations around the world (in both English and Spanish), and *published peer commentaries, scientific and popular articles as well as book chapters. His work can be found in publications such as Behavioral and Brain Sciences (Cambridge University Press), SAGA: Best New Writing on Mythology (White Cloud Press), and a text book used in medical schools and teaching hospitals throughout Spain and Latin America*.


It seems like he has sufficient academic standing and credentials to me! Others in the field disagree with their premise as you point out, but that does not prove them wrong. Science can be very conservative about upending existing ideas, until something comes along that changes everything. I think this may eventually prove to be one of those upheavals.


----------



## Machiavelli

Caribbean Man said:


> Exactly.
> 
> That's because monogamy is a social construct , designed to build societies, and bring social order.





Married but Happy said:


> I think your information is incorrect. I suggest you read the book Amazon.com: Sex at Dawn: How We Mate, Why We Stray, and What It Means for Modern Relationships eBook: Christopher Ryan, Cacilda Jetha: Kindle Store
> 
> Monogamy is a recent construct in human relationships. Most likely, failing societies have lost their social cohesion leading to promiscuity, but that's a symptom, not a cause.


IIRC, _Sex at Dawn_ is the authors' informed speculation about feral humans conducting a sexual free for all in a paleolithic setting. Neolithic hunter gatherers, American Indians for example, as well as most sedentary ancient societies worldwide (except the Greeks and their emulators the Romans), being concerned with property inheritance issues of flocks and later fields, were/are polygynists. 

It's quite clear that polygyny is the natural order, however I freely admit that the Greek innovation of monogamy is what allows for modern civilizational advancement. Monogamous societies have proven to be much more peaceful and equitable than polygynous societies. Of course, monogamy to the Greeks and Romans was strictly legal from the male perspective. Courtesans, concubines, and slave women were all on the menu for the married man. Consider the Greek seminar, a philosophy session that ended in a drunken orgy. However, wives were not invited, it was for men and their outside women: the wisdom of the ancients.

Imperial Rome seems to have had a high incidence of what we would call open marriage among the elite and low classes. And the type of marriage that was most popular shifted to a version where the woman was not actually under the husband's authority, which also made divorce much easier.

The Pill is what has made the modern scene possible.


----------



## jaharthur

Married but Happy said:


> I believe you are mistaken. And I would hope that any controversial idea would be critiqued. That his thesis was critiqued by qualified academics shows that there must be some subtance to the ideas.
> 
> 
> 
> It seems like he has sufficient academic standing and credentials to me! Others in the field disagree with their premise as you point out, but that does not prove them wrong. Science can be very conservative about upending existing ideas, until something comes along that changes everything. I think this may eventually prove to be one of those upheavals.


An English BA and a PhD in Psychology from a third-rate institution (Saybrook was ranked near the bottom of all psychology PhD programs in the country) aren't appropriate or persuasive credentials for a complex evolutionary and anthropological inquiry.


----------



## Theseus

Caribbean Man said:


> And I suppose securing you luxury vehicle when you park it in a private parking lot , or securing your home when you leave for work is also useless because many people who do , still suffer from vehicular theft and burglary anyway.


Interesting analogy, but what is the actual risk here?

It just so happens that I live in an extremely safe area. I value my family very much, but we often don't bother to lock the house because there's not much point to it. 

Out of the monogamous couples I have known, more than half have split up. Out of the very few polyamorous couples I have known, most are still together. That's hardly a scientific survey, but it makes me skeptical that swinging couples are always doomed. 



Caribbean Man said:


> The chances of your marriage surviving the swinging lifestyle is much , much lower than if you and your husband played Russian Roulette just for the thrill.
> 
> With Russian Roulette , your chances of surviving are six to one.
> With swinging , your chances of surviving are much , much less.


Actually, a lot of people would consider the act getting married the same as playing Russian Roulette...


----------



## BashfulB

My ex-girlfriend and I had a great relationship. We were living together and had been together a few years. Had we not done the swinging thing we probably would have gotten married. 

Alot of couples can handle swinging and being married. I just just don't see how you keep it from affecting intimacy.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Theseus said:


> I
> 
> 
> Actually, a lot of people would consider the act getting married the same as playing Russian Roulette...


Well that's the point Theseus.

_Why get married if you're afraid in the long run you'll lose out?

Why play Russian Roulette if you're afraid to die?

Why mess with swinging if you value your relationship and don't want to mess it up?

_


----------



## DoF

Theseus said:


> Interesting analogy, but what is the actual risk here?
> 
> It just so happens that I live in an extremely safe area. I value my family very much, but we often don't bother to lock the house because there's not much point to it.
> 
> Out of the monogamous couples I have known, more than half have split up. Out of the very few polyamorous couples I have known, most are still together. That's hardly a scientific survey, but it makes me skeptical that swinging couples are always doomed.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, a lot of people would consider the act getting married the same as playing Russian Roulette...


Risk you say? Whenever you make something more complicated you raise the risk.

With engineering it's adding more moving parts.

With humans, it's adding more humans.

Think about what you said. Most marriages fail (50%) so that should tell you that marriage ITSELF is hard enough. Adding more people to the situation only makes it worse/raises that risk even higher.



And everything I said is under the assumption that 2 people LOVE each other and have a healthy relationship. I could be wrong but I believe that is NOT the case in your relationship (IIRC your wife doesn't love you anymore and doesn't care if you sleep around?)


----------



## weightlifter

For a large percentage it is bad and a medium percentage relationship suicide.

IF you try it. Do it couple-couple. Too often the wife ends up with 9999999 offers the husband 0.

Source: Wife knows a couple of couples and I know 1. We do NOT.


----------



## Married but Happy

Sometimes, the rewards are worth the risk. And additional features often sell a product, and more sales results in more iterations and eventually greater reliability. It's not always a simple relationship.

With humans, sometimes adding more humans creates a community that is stronger than the individuals or couples in it. Marriage may be as hard as it is because of unrealistic expectations - or maybe the basic design of it is flawed?


----------



## Married but Happy

Caribbean Man said:


> Why mess with swinging if you value your relationship and don't want to mess it up?


Perhaps the potential rewards are worth the risks?


Why mess with having children if you value your relationship and don't want to mess it up? How many threads are there about marriages in trouble after sex fades once you have children? Children add drama to a relationship, too - isn't drama always a bad thing? Or, perhaps, sometimes children - or swinging - can enhance your life!


----------



## DoF

Married but Happy said:


> With humans, sometimes adding more humans creates a community that is stronger than the individuals or couples in it. Marriage may be as hard as it is because of unrealistic expectations - or maybe the basic design of it is flawed?


Community. Dealing with 1 woman is MORE than I can handle and PLENTY for me, but thanks!!!

Unrealistic expectations you say? Your user name assumes that marriage does not = happy.

Design of marriage is flawed? Marriage is what you make it. If swinging is part of it, that's what marriage is TO YOU (and that's really all that matters at the end of the day).


----------



## DoF

Married but Happy said:


> Why mess with having children if you value your relationship and don't want to mess it up?


My children didn't mess up my marriage. Not sure where you are getting that from.

If anything, the opposite happened. It brought us closer together (especially as kids age and get smarter).



Married but Happy said:


> How many threads are there about marriages in trouble after sex fades once you have children?


Again, opposite happened to me. 



Married but Happy said:


> Children add drama to a relationship, too - isn't drama always a bad thing? Or, perhaps, sometimes children - or swinging - can enhance your life!


Comparing children to swingers is completely backwards.

Children are part of family that need direction and work from both parents to create a healthy/contributing adult.

Swingers = occasional sex partners.


----------



## violet37

I can speak from personal experience that most swinging couples are not exactly what you would call happy. I would never ever recommend anyone try it. But I'm also fully aware of how other people in the lifestyle cheer you on and justify any number of ways on why it's ok, and how vanilla couples "just don't get it". I'm aware it doesn't end in disaster for everyone. But in every single couple I know that was ever in the lifestyle, one or both cheated on their partner at some point. Without exception. The notion that it only happens when someone is there or they know about it is a fairytale.


----------



## Disenchanted

Swinging is super simple. All it is is a contest among women to win the hottest man (highest social value).

If you aren't the highest value man or the hottest woman, you lose (your spouse).

If you’re a 7 and your wife is cheating on you with a 9 and he offers your wife a permanent gig… game over.

99% of my friends that swing are fat unattractive social disfunctionals whose relationship was dead long before they started swinging.

If you or your husband want to swing, you should just admit the truth, your marriage is dead.


----------



## xakulax

DoF said:


> My children didn't mess up my marriage. Not sure where you are getting that from.
> 
> If anything, the opposite happened. It brought us closer together (especially as kids age and get smarter).
> 
> 
> 
> Again, opposite happened to me.
> 
> 
> 
> Comparing children to swingers is completely backwards.
> 
> Children are part of family that need direction and work from both parents to create a healthy/contributing adult.
> 
> Swingers = occasional sex partners.




Swingers = occasional sex but not necessarily good sex there a term I see a lot in swingers forums* taking one for the team * lol kinda take the fun out of it when your SO has 10 and you have WTF 2


----------



## DoF

Disenchanted said:


> Swinging is super simple. All it is is a contest among women to win the hottest man (highest social value).
> 
> If you aren't the highest value man or the hottest woman, you lose (your spouse).
> 
> If you’re a 7 and your wife is cheating on you with a 9 and he offers your wife a permanent gig… game over.
> 
> 99% of my friends that swing are fat unattractive social disfunctionals whose relationship was dead long before they started swinging.
> 
> If you or your husband want to swing, you should just admit the truth, your marriage is dead.


:iagree:


----------



## DoF

xakulax said:


> Swingers = occasional sex but not necessarily good sex there a term I see a lot in swingers forums* taking one for the team * lol kinda take the fun out of it when your SO has 10 you have WTF 2


That sounds completely pathetic. So it's basically a huge piss match.

:rofl:


----------



## xakulax

Basically yes. I remember the post ware the wife and husband where chatting it up with another couple at a swingers club after a wile of filtering and dancing they decided to take the party to there hotel room as they where leaving the club the husband overheard the other guys wife say * looks like i'm taking one for the team tonight * LOL the husband flipped and called off the play date with out saying why to the other couple he told his wife why on drive home and said he was done being treated like a pity f#ck.


It was funny and sad at the same time.


----------



## ReformedHubby

I've tried the MFF thing twice back in the day (not with my future wife). Didn't like it the first time, figured something must be wrong with me so I tried it again. Still didn't like it. Relationship status aside I guess I'm just made to play tennis with only one partner at a time.


----------



## Disenchanted

Lemme guess, your significant other is probably a great listener, provides a comfortable lifestyle and takes care of all of your emotional needs.


----------



## Disenchanted

therosenberg said:


> Just to be clear, were you talking to me or someone else on this thread? I'm a little lost, so I'd rather just ask


you


----------



## xakulax

therosenberg said:


> Yes, absolutely, we're open to that. While I respect other people's view on this topic, we've always been very open minded about this, and even though we're a couple and we have been a couple for years, we're very clear on something: we do not own each other.
> 
> We are together because we love each other and we love the idea of spending our lives together, but we have sexual urges and the idea of being with only one person for the rest of our lives (sexually, that is) doesn't really appeal to us.
> 
> So yes, we're open to it and we enjoy it very much.




To each their own personally I prefer the emotional and physical bonds forge in a monogamous relationship.


PS:monogamy dose not mean you own one's sex the sex is given to the one you wish to spend your life with and no one ells.


----------



## Disenchanted

therosenberg said:


> That's a pretty harsh generalization. This is a lifestyle that works for some couples and it doesn't work for others. It's up to each couple to decide what works for them. Judging people like that based on _your_ experience and _your_ social circle's is cruel and not very accurate, I think. No offense.


I can't help but notice that you left out the word "_married_" in front of the word "_couples_".

There are only two people in a marriage, otherwise it isn't really a marriage.

If you wanna sleep around, go ahead, just don't call yourself married on a marriage support forum.


----------



## Disenchanted

therosenberg said:


> Very well. In that case, yes, he's been great and we love each other very much, we've been together for 7 years. I know that's not a lot, especially considering this forum's standards, but I was married before and that relationship was hell. So it's fair to say we've got a pretty good thing going here.
> 
> But why do you make such assumptions about my husband? I'm curious.


Because obviously he isn't sexually stimulating you and he probably isn't getting laid as much as he'd like to by you so he agreed to swing to make up for it.

If he wasn't your emotional tampon you might want to [email protected] him more and not other men instead.


----------



## bandit.45

The ex and I knew a couple many years ago who lived near us and who were into "the lifestyle". They never invited us (thank God) but they did talk about it. 

We had them over for dinner once and they seemed like they were really tight and loving. Well, about three months later I run into the guy at a car show. He's paper thin, looked like he had not slept in a month and seemed despondent. We walked around and looked at cars together and I bought him lunch. 

Over lunch he told me that he and his STBXW had met a couple at their church and started swinging with them. Except his wife and the other guy hit it off, fell in love, and left both their respective spouses. 

His words of caution to me? "Man we were so smart. I thought I could handle it and so did she. Well, we couldn't, and now look where it got me." 

So needless to say, I never wanted to try it.


----------



## Disenchanted

bandit.45 said:


> The ex and I knew a couple.......


hypergamy = love


----------



## xakulax

bandit.45 said:


> The ex and I knew a couple many years ago who lived near us and who were into "the lifestyle". They never invited us (thank God) but they did talk about it.
> 
> We had them over for dinner once and they seemed like they were really tight and loving. Well, about three months later I run into the guy at a car show. He's paper thin, looked like he had not slept in a month and seemed despondent. We walked around and looked at cars together and I bought him lunch.
> 
> Over lunch he told me that he and his STBXW had met a couple at their church and started swinging with them. Except his wife and the other guy hit it off, fell in love, and left both their respective spouses.
> 
> His words of caution to me? "Man we were so smart. I thought I could handle it and so did she. Well, we couldn't, and now look where it got me."
> 
> So needless to say, I never wanted to try it.




Many go in to the lifestyle with dreams of orgy and rose petals but end up heart broken and shell shock I can't imagine a more worse feeling then knowing you know the risk did it anyway and your marriage paid the price for it.


----------



## Disenchanted

It's simple biological evolution.

Polyamory — multiple and simultaneous sexual relationships — means, in practice, a few high value dudes hording all the women. Multitudinously and concurrently. Polyamory cheerleaders, like Christopher Ryan, note the shape of our penis heads and go on to weave a happy utopia of free love where all the men and all the women get their rocks off whenever and however they wish, like the bonobos (who, by the way, are territorially squeezed compared to their more prodigiously successful chimp cousins). But he has to ignore female hypergamous mate choice and male jealousy to concoct this vision of a peaceful hedonist paradise.

The reality would be considerably darker; women would still want to bang the alpha, leaving the beta male out in the cold, clawing and scratching for rode-worn scraps, but now shackled with the obligation to help provide for kids that are likely not his own. What then happens is a complete breakdown in male investment in women and families. Men spend their working hours battling it out in vast, unproductive “Who’s the Sexiest?” competitions for privileged access to a veritable harem of women. If you think this is a recipe for creating and sustaining an advanced modern society filled with creature comforts, I have a grass hut somewhere in the Congo to sell you.


----------



## bandit.45

therosenberg said:


> All I know is that this is what makes us happy and we plan on keep doing this. Period. It works for us and our happiness and satisfaction as a couple is our priority. Some people might agree with us, some people won't, but I am just talking from my experience. I'm not saying people should do this, I am only saying, _this works for us_.


I'm not dissing your choice in lifestyle. If the two of you can sustain the intimacy with other d!cks and vaginas in the mix, and if that is your kink, go for it. 

Remember you are on a site with alot of betrayed spouses who were not given the choice to share their mates: the choice you and your husband have willingly given each other... hence the negative feedback. 

I can only inject my experience and two cents and say that, for me, I would not be able to stomach it. 

By the way, do you and hubby do same-room swapping or do you go off with your partners to other rooms? Do you go out with other partners by yourself and leave him home and vice versa? See, reason I ask is that I definitely could not handle that. IF I did choose to swing with a future partner, I would want to make damn sure she was in the same room with me so I could keep tabs on what was going on.


----------



## Disenchanted

One of the women I am dating comes from a 15 year swinging marriage.

She says it was the biggest mistake of her life and regrets it everyday. She also agrees that it isn't actually a marriage at all.

All of my friends (and I have quite a few) who swing would go to the grave swearing up and down that swinging is good for them and that they are happy.

Until it all blows up, which it usually does.

This one particular girl I'm dating has told me about swinger parties they would go to. There was this one unfortunately poorly endowed gentlemen. She couldn't figure out how this couple could swing. Because mr little willy would be left in the corner almost every time while his wife went off to some other room and got banged by countless other swinging husbands who were much better "off" then he is. None of the women wanted to sleep with him, naturally.

No thanks amigo.


----------



## bandit.45

Disenchanted said:


> This one particular girl I'm dating has told me about swinger parties they would go to. There was this one unfortunately poorly endowed gentlemen. She couldn't figure out how this couple could swing. Because mr little willy would be left in the corner almost every time while his wife went off to some other room and got banged by countless other swinging husbands who were much better "off" then he is. None of the women wanted to sleep with him, naturally.
> 
> No thanks amigo.


G-damn it Dis!!! I told you never to tell anyone!!!


----------



## xakulax

bandit.45 said:


> I'm not dissing your choice in lifestyle. If the two of you can sustain the intimacy with other d!cks and vaginas in the mix, and if that is your kink, go for it.
> 
> Remember you are on a site with alot of betrayed spouses who were not given the choice to share their mates: the choice you and your husband have willingly given each other... hence the negative feedback.
> 
> I can only inject my experience and two cents and say that, for me, I would not be able to stomach it.
> 
> By the way, do you and hubby do same-room swapping or do you go off with your partners to other rooms? Do you go out with other partners by yourself and leave him home and vice versa? See, reason I ask is that I definitely could not handle that. *IF I did choose to swing with a future partner, I would want to make damn sure she was in the same room with me so I could keep tabs on what was going on*.



Yeah its kinda hard to enforce boundaries when your spouse is in another room with somebody else from what I've seen of swinging usually boundaries are the first thing that falls before the marriage the other party wants to push further and further and ultimately those boundaries will fall wants that happens it only a matter of time


----------



## xakulax

Disenchanted said:


> This one particular girl I'm dating has told me about swinger parties they would go to. There was this one unfortunately poorly endowed gentlemen. She couldn't figure out how this couple could swing. Because mr little willy would be left in the corner almost every time while his wife went off to some other room and got banged by countless other swinging husbands who were much better "off" then he is. None of the women wanted to sleep with him, naturally.
> 
> No thanks amigo.



That's not swinging that's Cuckoldry


----------



## Disenchanted

xakulax said:


> That's not swinging that's Cuckoldry


Hey once you open that door it's pretty difficult to close.

But I suppose it's like cocaine. The first time you try it is the most dangerous, you'll never know if it'll destroy your heart till you try it out.

And to Rosenberg, if it works for you I say go for it! Not trying to sound harsh or judgmental, am just spouting my opinion.


----------



## Machiavelli

xakulax said:


> That's not swinging that's Cuckoldry


That's not cuckoldry, it's wittolry. If you know and tolerate or promote, you're a wittol. Old word, cause there is nothing new under the sun.


----------



## xakulax

Machiavelli said:


> That's not cuckoldry, it's wittolry. If you know and tolerate or promote, you're a wittol. Old word, cause there is nothing new under the sun.


The more you know.


----------



## Machiavelli

therosenberg said:


> We do it together not because we want to keep tabs on each other, but because I get really turned on by watching my husband with other women (*or a man, as is the case with a particular friend of ours*),


There you go, guys: The bottom line element. Talk about lowering your status in the chimp hierarchy.


----------



## Disenchanted

Machiavelli said:


> There you go, guys: The bottom line element. Talk about lowering your status in the chimp hierarchy.


Only a man with no options (like Mr. Little Willy described above) would permit a woman he is nailing to sleep with someone else.

I've no doubt mr little willy was terrified of losing his "treasure".


----------



## WorkingOnMe

Disenchanted said:


> Only a man with no options (like Mr. Little Willy described above) would permit a woman he is nailing to sleep with someone else.
> 
> 
> 
> I've no doubt mr little willy was terrified of losing his "treasure".



Yup. In any given couple it's the woman who has all the offers. Many men will only get offers if his woman makes it a condition for her availability. Because of that you see men like R's man stooping to mm activity.


----------



## xakulax

Disenchanted said:


> Only a man with no options (like Mr. Little Willy described above) would permit a woman he is nailing to sleep with someone else.
> 
> I've no doubt mr little willy was terrified of losing his "treasure".



Yeah and I'm willing to bet Mr little Willy probably makes good money that's how he got his treasure in the first place.

Mr little Willy is the definition of the beta male.


----------



## Machiavelli

therosenberg said:


> Huh. I take it you find my sex life distasteful  Haha.


I couldn't care one way or the other, you're adults you can do what you want, but I've always suspected that the guys who wanted me to bang their wives while they watched had a hidden agenda. Did I read that right that your husband has a special male friend that you like to watch him with?


----------



## Disenchanted

xakulax said:


> Yeah and I'm willing to bet Mr little Willy probably makes good money that's how he got his treasure in the first place.


Either that or she got knocked up by a guy that gave her tingles. You know, the kind of guy that doesn't put up with bullsh!t like swinging. And then Mr. Little Willy stepped into to raise his kid(s).

Now THAT is beta.


----------



## Disenchanted

This is great:


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Holland said:


> I don't care what other people do.
> 
> But for me, my partner and our relationship it will never happen. I have to be honest and say that while it may be hot sexually, I would not survive it emotionally. I expect and give 100% loyalty to my partner which includes 100% emotional loyalty. Swinging or the involvement of any other person in our sexual life would destroy that.
> 
> If I was in a non committed relationship then yes I could go there but my love for my partner brings out a fierce, natural need to protect our emotional bond.


This verbatim.

The whole idea seems like the definition of drama. It is difficult enough to maintain a strong emotional bond throughout the course of a marriage without introducing high risk ideas like swinging.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Machiavelli

Disenchanted said:


> This is great:


Yes, that is hilarious. This is why I say mankind is meant for polygyny. This was clearly a low status female to be paired with such a low ranking male. He cried and sobbed, but at least he didn't help blow the OM.


----------



## ConanHub

I would never. Doesn't even fall into my definition of marriage. I know a couple that swings, threesomes. They don't know I know. They don't want kids. That makes them pretty smart. 

I might not agree with the lifestyle, but definitely don't bring kids into it.


----------



## bandit.45

Disenchanted said:


> This is great:


Sounds like **** fiction to me. I don't buy it.


----------



## ConanHub

Machiavelli said:


> Yes, that is hilarious. This is why I say mankind is meant for polygyny. This was clearly a low status female to be paired with such a low ranking male. He cried and sobbed, but at least he didn't help blow the OM.


What is polygyny? Too lazy to look it up I guess...:scratchhead:


----------



## xakulax

ConanHub said:


> What is polygyny? Too lazy to look it up I guess...:scratchhead:


*polygyny* the state or practice of having more than one wife or female mate at a time


----------



## ConanHub

bandit.45 said:


> Sounds like **** fiction to me. I don't buy it.


I read a lot of that thread myself and the skank involved actually started posting as well. Still could be fake but seemed possible. Both of them were incredibly screwed up people.


----------



## ConanHub

xakulax said:


> *polygyny* the state or practice of having more than one wife or female mate at a time


Wrong. But you helped me figure it out. My brain is slow today.
Polygamy is what you described if memory serves? Polygyny must be the reverse?

Alright. gonna stop being lazy and look it up. Thanks though xakulax!


----------



## ConanHub

Sorry xak!!! You were right!!! Just a variation of the word.


----------



## ConanHub

Machiavelli said:


> Yes, that is hilarious. This is why I say mankind is meant for polygyny. This was clearly a low status female to be paired with such a low ranking male. He cried and sobbed, but at least he didn't help blow the OM.


Can't say I agree about mankind, but your other observations are hilarious! 

What is the reverse called? When one woman has more than one husband?

That does seem far stranger than polygyny, although both seem wrong to me.


----------



## xakulax

ConanHub said:


> Can't say I agree about mankind, but your other observations are hilarious!
> 
> What is the reverse called? When one woman has more than one husband?
> 
> That does seem far stranger than polygyny, although both seem wrong to me.



The female equivalent of polygyny is polyandry


----------



## ConanHub

Married but Happy said:


> I think your information is incorrect. I suggest you read the book Amazon.com: Sex at Dawn: How We Mate, Why We Stray, and What It Means for Modern Relationships eBook: Christopher Ryan, Cacilda Jetha: Kindle Store
> 
> Monogamy is a recent construct in human relationships. Most likely, failing societies have lost their social cohesion leading to promiscuity, but that's a symptom, not a cause.


I agree with MSP. I think loose sexual boundaries that are widely accepted in a society, soon bring that society down. I am not talking about what occurs in a society, but what is accepted as "normal".


----------



## ConanHub

Married but Happy said:


> Thank you for acknowledging at least some of my points.
> 
> I understand what you're saying in the part I quoted. However, I think you are making an unsubstantiated assumption that swinging behavior is inimical to a couple's interests. In some cases that may be true, in many others it is not, especially if they have mutually agreed to pursue it.
> 
> _More than half of all couples are swingers_ - it's just that one of the spouses hasn't been informed or consented! It would seem that sex with someone other than your spouse is a cultural and human norm (which makes cheating mainstream, even if taboo), and IMO it's better (and more fun) to deal with that issue head on and work out a mutually agreeable way to handle it.


Just because many choose not to control their "crotch monster" doesn't mean it is normal or benign behavior.

Just because most, and I do mean most, people steal something at some point in their lives does not make it ok. It is simply not controlling dark impulses. Everyone does have dark impulses, not everyone is led around by them.


----------



## Csquare

My grandfather was polygamous with 4 wives and numerous concubines. This was accepted in their culture.

Upside: all his grandchildren -including me - turned out to be stunningly beautiful.

Downside: very neglected children with lots of abuse. 3 of the 18+ children ended up committing suicide.


----------



## Theseus

DoF said:


> And everything I said is under the assumption that 2 people LOVE each other and have a healthy relationship. I could be wrong but I believe that is NOT the case in your relationship (IIRC your wife doesn't love you anymore and doesn't care if you sleep around?)




Where did you get that from? We love each other very much, and tell each other often. If I "slept around" my wife would throw a fit. 

We have never swung with anyone, although in the past we have discussed it with other people we know, and are open to the idea in theory.


----------



## xakulax

Between polygamy, swinging, and open marriages all this horror stories are making monogamy look like the safest bet for a good relationship but yet 50 percent of marriages end in divorce so maybe the problem isn't with the forms of bonding but are society as a whole. 


Just my observation any impute


----------



## DoF

Theseus said:


> Where did you get that from? We love each other very much, and tell each other often. If I "slept around" my wife would throw a fit.
> 
> We have never swung with anyone, although in the past we have discussed it with other people we know, and are open to the idea in theory.


Sorry must've confused you with another member.


----------



## ConanHub

therosenberg said:


> I think we shouldn't focus on what's considered "normal" or what's considered "good" or "bad", depending on our cultural upbringing, moral values, etc. I think, as I've been saying, it's up to each couple to decide what works for them and what doesn't. When it comes to sex, what two (or more) consenting adults do in private is nobody's business but theirs.
> 
> I don't think it's fair to morally judge them just because we don't agree with them.


I was referring to cheating.


----------



## treyvion

bandit.45 said:


> Sounds like **** fiction to me. I don't buy it.


These stories really happen.


----------



## bandit.45

treyvion said:


> These stories really happen.


I don't doubt it. But if I was the **** I wouldn't write about it and post it.


----------



## Machiavelli

ConanHub said:


> What is polygyny? Too lazy to look it up I guess...:scratchhead:


Polygyny = one H, 2 or more Ws
Polyandry = one W, 2 or more Hs

The world has pretty much been polygynous since the neolithic. The Greeks and Romans, on down to us today, were legally monogamous, but they did have mistresses and side action big time. Practical monogamy for males is a pretty new concept and dates around to the time of the start of the Puritan movement, although there were some influential Catholics who preached it from time to time over the millennia.

The winners in a polygynous society are high status males, since they get to hog all the women, and low status women, since they can get access to high value men they would normally only get to in a ONS at best. The losers in a polygynous society are low status men, who can't get laid, and high status women, who now have to share their high status man and his resources with his other women.

Of course, Darwin doesn't want those low status men reproducing at all. That means guys have to fight their way up to drive off a silverback and claim his women. This is called survival of the fittest. Unfortunately, it makes for a violent, backward society. This is what we are slowly migrating toward. However, it may not be as violent this time, since the gammas and deltas will soon have access to Japanese fembots to go with their Xboxes and Cheetohs.


----------



## Faithful Wife

bandit.45 said:


> I don't doubt it. But if I was the **** I wouldn't write about it and post it.


The **** likes it and craves it. They enjoy the humiliation. (If you mean a **** as kink, anyway). Yes, they do post stories just like this. They even want others to chime in and humiliate them, too. They get off on it.


----------



## xakulax

Machiavelli said:


> However, it may not be as violent this time, since the gammas and deltas will soon have access to *Japanese fembots* to go with their Xboxes and Cheetohs.



The minute this becomes reality I think we are all doomed


----------



## Married but Happy

I don't think we're moving towards a polygynous society, nor an alpha dominated society. If anything, we're moving towards networked sexuality. Maybe not most, but many people will have more than one lover, for both men and women, most likely controlled mainly by the women. I already see this happening amongst some groups of 20-somethings.


----------



## DoF

Married but Happy said:


> I don't think we're moving towards a polygynous society, nor an alpha dominated society. If anything, we're moving towards networked sexuality. Maybe not most, but many people will have more than one lover, for both men and women, most likely controlled mainly by the women. I already see this happening amongst some groups of 20-somethings.


Problem with above is that you are not talking about men or women, you are talking about girls and boys. And that has been going on for 100s of years.....


----------



## JCD

I am not getting in this conversation.


----------



## Machiavelli

Married but Happy said:


> I don't think we're moving towards a polygynous society, nor an alpha dominated society. If anything, we're moving towards networked sexuality. Maybe not most, but many people will have more than one lover, for both men and women, *most likely controlled mainly by the women*. I already see this happening amongst some groups of 20-somethings.


I am told that, unlike 40 years ago, women now rule swinging and it's more about girl-girl these days, and even male homosexuality (under the "bisexual" masquerade) is tolerated. You and the lady here, have confirmed such.

I submit to you that this is as I have said, feral female behavior, where the mass of women are being hogged by the elite males. Non-elite women (7 and below) will now have more sexual access to higher value males than they have in the past. This is basically soft polygyny. On the occasions where they don't want a woman, all these women will prefer my 20 year old self (cøcky well-hung bodybuilder) and the other 5% like me, to the paunchy bald guys they are married to who do the providing. Sure, those short, old guys with little d¡cks will get some, but the 5% are the ones who'll really light the fires.

I know how this works, because I had it offered to me twice back in the days when the husbands did all the picking. Only it wasn't really the husbands that were offering. The wives finally got a pick and they picked me.


----------



## WorkingOnMe

I'm not convinced that's the direction things are going. Back in the day it was usually the guys chasing the girls and the girls were the gate keepers. Now I watch my son's interactions and the girls are the aggressors big time. You would not believe the things the girls do to get attention from the guys now.


----------



## Machiavelli

WorkingOnMe said:


> I'm not convinced that's the direction things are going. Back in the day it was usually the guys chasing the girls and the girls were the gate keepers. Now I watch my son's interactions and the girls are the aggressors big time. You would not believe the things the girls do to get attention from the guys now.


This means he's a high value male. Women and girls have always been forward with the alpha/sigma group.


----------



## xakulax

After reading some past post in this thread I just realized something swinging seems to have a rather feminizing effect on the male participant.


----------



## treyvion

xakulax said:


> After reading some past post in this thread I just realized something swinging seems to have a rather feminizing effect on the male participant.


Unless he is a strong bull.


----------



## over20

We like to swing...just in our bedroom...and when the kids are out of the house.....

Sorry just wanted to lighten things up a bit...


----------



## xakulax

treyvion said:


> Unless he is a strong bull.


True but how many guys go in thinking just that only to end up holding their wife bag while she enjoy her gang bang or worse helping


----------



## Disenchanted

Strong bulls don't (let their wives) swing.


----------



## over20

True, they brand their females.


----------



## Machiavelli

"Bull" is the modern terminology for the guy who is brought in to properly plow the wife while the H sits in the corner and masturbates to the action.


----------



## over20

Machiavelli said:


> "Bull" is the modern terminology for the guy who is brought in to properly plow the wife while the H sits in the corner and masturbates to the action.


Whoops....thought is was the other way around......leaving now


----------



## treyvion

xakulax said:


> True but how many guys go in thinking just that only to end up holding their wife bag while she enjoy her gang bang or worse helping


damn. The entire act was designed to humiliate and overwealm him from the get go. He'd have to have an automatic weapon to fend them off.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

I doubt the legitimacy of most of the stories out there about "bad swinging experiences". Most likely it's erotic fiction propagated on message boards. However, I have no doubt that the majority of situations out there regarding swinging is skewed in favor of the females in the majority of set ups.

The big takeaway I think is this: If you have issues with jealousy, have the need to feel like you are the most special person in your spouses life sexually and you don't like to share your lover, then swinging is a bad choice for you. Since well over 50% of people out there have one or more of these traits, I'd say swinging is a bad decision for the vast majority of people out there. Even the most strident supporters of swinging in this thread confirm that you must be "pure of heart", or your swinging experiences will likely turn into disasters for your marriage. 

Yep...major downside risk for minimal upside gain. Not for me!


----------



## Stevenj

Swinging sounds fun sexually but horrible emotionally.


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

IMHO, thriving in a swinging environment is rare. You need two people who are fully committed to the lifestyle with effective ground rules to preserve the marriage PLUS also having a unique group of traits to pull it off - hence my "pure of heart" quip in the post above. 

The imagery that came to mind is of Arthur pulling the sword out of the stone because he was special. Except my image would be that person who was special enough to pull the special box of condoms from the giant stone hand. If you are "pure enough", you can unlock the world of swinging to live a sexually rewarding life. But be warned, it can be a real b!tch trying to take the condoms from the stone hands!


----------



## violet37

Disenchanted said:


> Hey once you open that door it's pretty difficult to close.
> 
> But I suppose it's like cocaine. The first time you try it is the most dangerous, you'll never know if it'll destroy your heart till you try it out.
> 
> And to Rosenberg, if it works for you I say go for it! Not trying to sound harsh or judgmental, am just spouting my opinion.


:iagree:


You are dead on. It is exactly like cocaine. People get a sort of "high" off of it they feed off of. These very words came out of the mouth of a swinger I know. And just like it takes a little more cocaine to get that same feeling as time goes on, it takes a little more kinky sex. And then that isn't enough so they take to online hook up sites and meet people on the side. I have seen it in action. People are free to do what they want to do, but what I really hate to see is a couple where one does it because it's what the other really wants. It is a dangerous path! And to the original poster, if you do it for long, it will be anything but drama free. And people usually hang with people that are into the same stuff. Crackheads hang with crackheads, potheads with potheads, swingers with swingers. Think this through before you try it, because you can't take it back.


----------



## bandit.45

over20 said:


> Whoops....thought is was the other way around......leaving now


:rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Disenchanted

My ex wife became friends with some swingers. She flirted with the idea of us getting involved in it. This couple even came to our house for dinner, there was some light play and some pictures were exchanged etc.

In retrospect, that SHOULD have been the red flag for me to end my marriage, would have saved years of pain and suffering and the terrible indescribable trauma of infidelity.

As an aside, this "swinger couple" divorced a few months later when she took on one of the guys "they" were screwing and booted her **** out.


----------



## Jung_admirer

Since I need an emotional connection to enjoy good sex, swinging is absolutely off the menu. My fWW knows better than to suggest swinging, as she would move from fWW to STBX.


----------



## DoF

Disenchanted said:


> My ex wife became friends with some swingers. She flirted with the idea of us getting involved in it. This couple even came to our house for dinner, there was some light play and some pictures were exchanged etc.
> 
> In retrospect, that SHOULD have been the red flag for me to end my marriage, would have saved years of pain and suffering and the terrible indescribable trauma of infidelity.
> 
> As an aside, this "swinger couple" divorced a few months later when she took on one of the guys "they" were screwing and booted her **** out.


Swinger friends would've been a deal breaker for me.......you take your friends, I will pack my bags. 

:scratchhead:


----------



## xakulax

Plan 9 from OS said:


> I doubt the legitimacy of most of the stories out there about "bad swinging experiences". Most likely it's erotic fiction propagated on message boards. However, I have no doubt that the majority of situations out there regarding swinging is skewed in favor of the females in the majority of set ups.
> 
> The big takeaway I think is this: If you have issues with jealousy, have the need to feel like you are the most special person in your spouses life sexually and you don't like to share your lover, then swinging is a bad choice for you. Since well over 50% of people out there have one or more of these traits, I'd say swinging is a bad decision for the vast majority of people out there. Even the most strident supporters of swinging in this thread confirm that you must be "pure of heart", or your swinging experiences will likely turn into disasters for your marriage.
> 
> Yep...*major downside risk for minimal upside gain*. Not for me!



For me its not matter of jealousy,a need to feel special or insecurity the problem I have with swinging is just day to day grunt work that go with the that lifestyle I mean think about it the amount of money you spend on hotels, club membership fees, setting up accounts on swinger sites sending nude pics of you and you wife back forth to people you don't know from Adam hopping the couple you want answers back AND ALL OF THIS WORK JUST FOR SLIGHTLY BETTER THEN AVERAGE VANILLA SEX The energy / reward ratio is way off in my opinion.


There Is also the problem of personal safety I've heard many stories of people who have been drugged at swinger parties or play dates with roofies to loosen them up and in one case where a wife was raped by her play date in her home wile her husband was down stairs beating off they could not take legal action because the person who had committed the crime was invited for a threesome and its kinda hard to claim rape when you invite your attacker for group sex. The couple was also terrified it would become public record so they just dropped the case 


My health, My family, and My safety is more impotent then sexual gratification especially if its at the cost of my self respect.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Although an extreme example of what can go wrong, I saw a true crime news story on this case recently. Basically the wife became obsessed with her lover that she met through swinging and had her daughter off her husband. Interesting that the "Bull" that she did all this for didn't care about her.

_*FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — A murder trial took a scandalous turn Friday when a soldier testified against a woman accused of plotting her Army husband's death.

During his testimony, Jeffrey Wilson painted a dark picture of Army Maj. David Shannon and his wife, Joan. Wilson told jurors that the couple had a swinging lifestyle and that they often had sex with other people.

Shannon was shot to death in 2002. Investigators say his wife planned her husband's death and convinced her teenage daughter, Elizabeth Shannon, to shoot him.

Prosecutors believe Joan Shannon wanted her husband dead so she collect insurance money and run away to be with Wilson, a soldier who worked at Womack Army Medical Center.

During his testimony, Wilson also claimed that he slept with Joan Shannon after Maj. Shannon came up with the idea. He testified that he also took photos of him and Joan Shannon together and that the Shannons thought nothing of it.

"She had other partners," Wilson said. "As long as it wasn't serious, (her husband) didn't mind."

Wilson also said that he believed Joan Shannon was falling in love with him. He said that when Maj. Shannon died, the defendant was not upset.

Wilson also suggested that he was just with Joan Shannon for money to buy a motorcycle.

"I'd tell her what she wanted to hear to get what's at the end of the rainbow -- her to co-sign for my motorcycle," Wilson said.

The prosecution rested its case Friday. If convicted, Joan Shannon could go to prison for life. Elizabeth Shannon pleaded guilty and faces a maximum of 31 years in prison.*_

Soldier Offers Scandalous Testimony In Shannon Murder Trial :: WRAL.com


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Disenchanted said:


> My ex wife became friends with some swingers. She flirted with the idea of us getting involved in it. This couple even came to our house for dinner, there was some light play and some pictures were exchanged etc.
> 
> In retrospect, that SHOULD have been the red flag for me to end my marriage, would have saved years of pain and suffering and the terrible indescribable trauma of infidelity.
> 
> As an aside, this "swinger couple" divorced a few months later when she took on one of the guys "they" were screwing and booted her **** out.


I would be very concerned if my wife suggested swinging. More power to the people who enjoy that lifestyle but it falls outside of my boundaries for a committed relationship and I don't think I would be in a committed relationship with someone who didn't share the same mindset ... so for her to suggest it would be a big red flag. Basically cheating with my approval.


----------



## xakulax

ReformedHubby said:


> Although an extreme example of what can go wrong, I saw a true crime news story on this case recently. Basically the wife became obsessed with her lover that she met through swinging and had her daughter off her husband. Interesting that the "Bull" that she did all this for didn't care about her.
> 
> _*FAYETTEVILLE, N.C. — A murder trial took a scandalous turn Friday when a soldier testified against a woman accused of plotting her Army husband's death.
> 
> During his testimony, Jeffrey Wilson painted a dark picture of Army Maj. David Shannon and his wife, Joan. Wilson told jurors that the couple had a swinging lifestyle and that they often had sex with other people.
> 
> Shannon was shot to death in 2002. Investigators say his wife planned her husband's death and convinced her teenage daughter, Elizabeth Shannon, to shoot him.
> 
> Prosecutors believe Joan Shannon wanted her husband dead so she collect insurance money and run away to be with Wilson, a soldier who worked at Womack Army Medical Center.
> 
> During his testimony, Wilson also claimed that he slept with Joan Shannon after Maj. Shannon came up with the idea. He testified that he also took photos of him and Joan Shannon together and that the Shannons thought nothing of it.
> 
> "She had other partners," Wilson said. "As long as it wasn't serious, (her husband) didn't mind."
> 
> Wilson also said that he believed Joan Shannon was falling in love with him. He said that when Maj. Shannon died, the defendant was not upset.
> 
> Wilson also suggested that he was just with Joan Shannon for money to buy a motorcycle.
> 
> "I'd tell her what she wanted to hear to get what's at the end of the rainbow -- her to co-sign for my motorcycle," Wilson said.
> 
> The prosecution rested its case Friday. If convicted, Joan Shannon could go to prison for life. Elizabeth Shannon pleaded guilty and faces a maximum of 31 years in prison.*_
> 
> Soldier Offers Scandalous Testimony In Shannon Murder Trial :: WRAL.com



I remember that trial I was visiting my uncle at fort Bragg when it happen there is a huge swinger community down there.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

It's isn't a matter of jealousy, insecurity or needing to feel special. I have a difficult time separating sex from emotional bonding. It isn't that I can't have sex without attachment but eventually there will be an emotional aspect to it ... I would not be able to stay detached for too long. I think my wife would have an even more difficult time staying detached and that would present a huge risk to my marriage. Not a risk worth taking.


----------



## Machiavelli

These kinds of murders happen all the time with people who aren't swingers. As we know, somewhere between 30-50% of married women will commit adultery at least once in their life, but very few go so far as to off their husbands. 

What is more interesting about that story is that these people were experienced swingers. Who knows what this woman's total body count was? However, there is always eventually going to be that one guy who has the right tool, right pheromones, right swagger, right BO, whatever it is that finally rings her bell like no others. And after that, it's never the same. Even if she doesn't run off with him, he's her ghost forever.


----------



## xakulax

Machiavelli said:


> These kinds of murders happen all the time with people who aren't swingers. As we know, somewhere between 30-50% of married women will commit adultery at least once in their life, but very few go so far as to off their husbands.
> 
> What is more interesting about that story is that these people were experienced swingers. Who knows what this woman's total body count was? However, there is always eventually going to be that one guy who has the right tool, right pheromones, right swagger, right BO, whatever it is that finally rings her bell like no others. And after that, it's never the same. Even if she doesn't run off with him, he's her ghost forever.




I agree completely but I would also add that out come is not gender specific that moment of realization you could upgrade to something better.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Machiavelli said:


> What is more interesting about that story is that these people were experienced swingers. Who knows what this woman's total body count was? However, there is always eventually going to be that one guy who has the right tool, right pheromones, right swagger, right BO, whatever it is that finally rings her bell like no others. And after that, it's never the same. Even if she doesn't run off with him, he's her ghost forever.


Yep, that's the point I was trying to get across. She had been there and done that lots of times, yet somehow still formed an unhealthy attachment to him. Then the dude is on the stand basically testifying that all he wanted was a motorcycle out of it and could have cared less about her. 

Its not something to be played with in my opinion. Unless one truly does want to be a cuckold, in that case he would be happier as he moves lower and lower in the pecking order.


----------



## Lostinthought61

there is a commercial that is playing in my area and probably in yours for a cable company, in the commercial this woman is looking out the window and is staring at a neighbor, a well built man washing a very nice car, and her husband comes up to her and ask her.."do you think you settled" and she turns around to a rather frumpy husband...now granted it...he refers to dish network vs. cable...but you can see the bigger picture..in reference to the topic at hand, i would suggest that in the back of some couples minds, that they might have settled for less then they had hoped for in a partner, by introducing swinging it might open the doors to something better from one or both partners, while one person might see this as a way to expand their sexual adventure the other partner might be looking for the next best thing......while i am not precluding cheating from stopping this, swinging make is more acceptable and open up front to both parties. 

We are a society that has been conditioned to upgrading, our cars, our homes, clothing, etc...so why are we not surprised when we see people upgrading their partners.


----------



## xakulax

Xenote said:


> there is a commercial that is playing in my area and probably in yours for a cable company, in the commercial this woman is looking out the window and is staring at a neighbor, a well built man washing a very nice car, and her husband comes up to her and ask her.."do you think you settled" and she turns around to a rather frumpy husband...now granted it...he refers to dish network vs. cable...but you can see the bigger picture..in reference to the topic at hand, i would suggest that in the back of some couples minds, that they might have settled for less then they had hoped for in a partner, by introducing swinging it might open the doors to something better from one or both partners, while one person might see this as a way to expand their sexual adventure the other partner might be looking for the next best thing......while i am not precluding cheating from stopping this, *swinging make is more acceptable and open up front to both parties*.
> 
> We are a society that has been conditioned to upgrading, our cars, our homes, clothing, etc...so why are we not surprised when we see people upgrading their partners.



Then why get marred then 


Also how long do you think that wife in the commercial would be able to keep that well built man washing a very nice car I prefer to live in reality not fantasy if I marry someone I do it because I want them and only them that's just me maybe i'm unique or maybe i'm just mature enough as a man to know what want in a spouse.


----------



## Lostinthought61

I am not suggesting one way or another whether a couple should or should not go into swinging...we have discussed it but we passed on it. Its not for us, my only point was that we are beginning to see further societal changes in the way we define what it is to be in relationship and marriage, whether that will be the demise of our civilization is yet to be seen. But i would suggest to you the 40- 50 year old marriages will be a rarity in years to come...and if you think otherwise your delusional


----------



## xakulax

Xenote said:


> I am not suggesting one way or another whether a couple should or should not go into swinging...we have discussed it but we passed on it. Its not for us, my only point was that we are beginning to see further societal changes in the way we define what it is to be in relationship and marriage, whether that will be the demise of our civilization is yet to be seen. But i would suggest to you *the 40- 50 year old marriages will be a rarity in years to come...and if you think otherwise your delusional*




I like to think i'm optimistic


----------



## Lostinthought61

Then i would rather live in your world.


----------



## Disenchanted

Xenote said:


> But i would suggest to you the 40- 50 year old marriages will be a rarity in years to come...and if you think otherwise your delusional


This is 100% true, as long as feminism remains a fad.

Obama To Sign Executive Orders On Equal Pay



Xenote said:


> whether that will be the demise of our civilization is yet to be seen.


It's a no-brainer, family units are the very core of civilization.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Disenchanted said:


> It's a no-brainer, family units are the very core of civilization.


Agreed.

That's why I feel that swinging and all that stuff belongs outside of marriage.

The main purpose of marriage is to build families.


----------



## naiveonedave

this is a big concern of mine. SOciety will break down very quickly if, as Machiavelli suggests, polyamorous males get multiple wives/GF and the bulk of men get no women. That will implode society from a huge number of ways.


----------



## NobodySpecial

naiveonedave said:


> this is a big concern of mine. SOciety will break down very quickly if, as Machiavelli suggests, polyamorous males get multiple wives/GF and the bulk of men get no women. That will implode society from a huge number of ways.


What M wants is nothing but pure wishful thinking or socioeconomic abuse as with the Mormons. Polyamory for most is not about the acquisition of more vagina. It is actually about love (the amory part) for most people. And is practiced with openness, honesty and caring.


----------



## Disenchanted

NobodySpecial said:


> What M wants is nothing but pure wishful thinking or socioeconomic abuse as with the Mormons. Polyamory for most is not about the acquisition of more vagina. It is actually about love (the amory part) for most people. And is practiced with openness, honesty and caring.


How, in a polyamorous society, are you going to arrange things so that women dispense their pvssy equitably among high and low status men? This would require some major group selection modulated behavior to be workable; a woman would fvck for the survival of the tribe, instead of the survival of her offspring. That would be awfully magnanimous of her! It’s like arranging a society where men are happy to boff fat, old and ugly chicks with equal attention to romantic detail that they give the hot young babes.

If anything, a culturally endorsed polyamorous dating market that virtually guaranteed a steady provider payout for disloyal, promiscuous women and their bastard spawn would help resolve the female tension for male commitment and good male genes in favor of the latter. Betas would be sexually shunned even more than they are now. LJBFing and undignified platonic beta orbiting would reach epic proportions.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Disenchanted said:


> How, in a polyamorous society, are you going to arrange things so that women dispense their pvssy equitably among high and low status men?


Well. As of now there is no polyamorous society. They live in the space that blacks did for decades. The place that gay people lived for decades. So whatever.

But the last time I checked ***** was not a commodity that was owed anyone. It's distribution is at the will of the PERSON who has the body that it belongs to. She SHARES her sexuality with the people she chooses. Same as now.



> This would require some major group selection modulated behavior to be workable; a woman would fvck for the survival of the tribe, instead of the survival of her offspring. That would be awfully magnanimous of her! It’s like arranging a society where men are happy to boff fat, old and ugly chicks with equal attention to romantic detail that they give the hot young babes.
> 
> If anything, a culturally endorsed polyamorous dating market that virtually guaranteed a steady provider payout for disloyal, promiscuous women and their bastard spawn would help resolve the female tension for male commitment and good male genes in favor of the latter. Betas would be sexually shunned even more than they are now. LJBFing and undignified platonic beta orbiting would reach epic proportions.


Yah. You can skip the whole polyamorous understanding thing. You are not there. That whole love thing might be new to you as well.


----------



## Disenchanted

NobodySpecial said:


> But the last time I checked ***** was not a commodity that was owed anyone.


Actually it's usually traded for security and comfort, eventually.

That is, after it's all used up for thrills.


----------



## Disenchanted

NobodySpecial said:


> That whole love thing might be new to you as well.


hypergamy = love


----------



## NobodySpecial

Disenchanted said:


> Actually it's usually traded for security and comfort, eventually.
> 
> That is, after it's all used up for thrills.


Just a sad and gross life. Why would I or any woman need someone else' security? I remember there was this thing called WW2. At the end of that women realized they could earn their own bread.

I choose love.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Disenchanted said:


> hypergamy = love


Let me guess. Jilted and bitter?


----------



## Disenchanted

NobodySpecial said:


> Well. As of now there is no polyamorous society.


There's a reason for that, polyamorous societies go extinct:

Fossil finger records key to Neanderthals' promiscuity


----------



## Disenchanted

NobodySpecial said:


> Let me guess. Jilted and bitter?


Not at all, just overwhelmed with women who _love_ me.


----------



## treyvion

Disenchanted said:


> Not at all, just overwhelmed with women who _love_ me.


As we all should.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

We already ARE a poly society and world. Just that most people don't want to see it.


----------



## Married but Happy

Disenchanted said:


> There's a reason for that, polyamorous societies go extinct:
> 
> Fossil finger records key to Neanderthals' promiscuity


Now that's a leap of illogic if ever I've seen one! :lol:


----------



## Disenchanted

NobodySpecial said:


> Just a sad and gross life. Why would I or any woman need someone else' security?


Ask the COO of Facebook!



> I say in the book, date the bad boys, date the crazy boys, but do not marry them. Marry the boys who are going to change half of the diapers.


Sheryl Sandberg tells Salon: I was wrong about women - Salon.com

NO MA'AM!!!



Faithful Wife said:


> We already ARE a poly society and world. Just that most people don't want to see it.


The term is "culturally endorsed polyamorous society"



Married but Happy said:


> Now that's a leap of illogic if ever I've seen one! :lol:


Glad you liked it!

Here you go ladies, a picture perfect life for you:


----------



## NobodySpecial

Disenchanted said:


> The term is "culturally endorsed polyamorous society"


As long as culture endorses your ability to pay for yours, you are all good. Rock that.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Disenchanted said:


> Here you go ladies, a picture perfect life for you:


Meh. I am usually wearing a school girl skirt. Maybe that is just me.


----------



## therosenberg

NobodySpecial said:


> Meh. I am usually wearing a school girl skirt. Maybe that is just me.


Haha!


----------



## xakulax

I think everyone's pretty much covered all the pros and cons of all of the various forms of pair bonding in human society and personally as long as the couple or couple's that are involved are fully aware of what they're getting into and fully understand the work and risk that goes into that lifestyle I say go for it more power to you life is too short and if you can find someone who shares your point of view on sexuality all the better what I don't care for however are people who try to force their views on their partners overtly or covertly that's something that just isn't right in my book.



Personally in our ever growing society of Internet otaku shut ins I really don't care how people meet and fall in love as long as they do it in the real world.


----------



## WallaceBea

donotdoit said:


> I registered just so I could answer your query. Yes, my wife and I did try swinging one time. We were just like you and your husband, it sounded sexy and we convinced ourselves it would be just fine. The reality turned out to be very different. I found that seeing my wife with another man was not as sexy as I thought it would be. The other woman didn't do things right. She was very eager but she wasn't my wife. She didn't touch me right, she didn't feel right, she didn't smell wonderful like my wife.
> 
> My advice, as someone who's been there... do not do it. Leave it in the fantasy realm and have fun with the fantasy. Everyone is perfect in fantasyland. Not so in real life.
> 
> We wish you well.


Thank you very much for sharing your experiences. Your response, and all of the other responses, are very thought provoking, and I am inclined to share this threat with my Husband.


----------



## WallaceBea

DoF said:


> OP, your friends are swingers? That's mistake #1. You do realize that longer you remain friends with them the more you will want to be like them correct? That will just happen naturally, heck it's happening as we speak (based on your thread).
> 
> You and your husband need to figure out what you like/desire etc without ANY influence from "friends" etc.
> 
> If you do decide to proceed down that path I hope you are both ready to put your relationship on the line, cause that's exactly what will happen (just a matter of time).
> 
> If you think your relationship is tested/hard with 2 people only, you will be in shock what drama/problems you will encounter when you add people to that equation.
> 
> IMO, OP should find new friends......fast......
> 
> "There are 2 kinds of people, followers and leaders...."
> 
> "If you are around someone long enough, no matter how much of a leader one might be, you will become like them slowly."<<<< by me


Yes, we are friends with 2 couples who are swingers. They have already hinted at fooling around with us, but they are not our type at all, and my husband and I agreed upon that and do not want to swing with them specifically. We are quite close friends with both couples though, and I don't see that changing, nor do I see my husband and I not wanting to swing with either couple, hurting the friendship.


----------



## WallaceBea

ReformedHubby said:


> Just being real for me it says a lot about how a man feels about a woman (or doesn't feel) if he is willing to just share her with others. I used to work with an exec whose wife cheated on him. His reaction to it was different than most. He suggested that they become swingers otherwise he would not agree to reconciliation.
> 
> She agreed to try it assuming this is what he wanted to make him happy. The reality is he cared absolutely nothing about her anymore. He was just using her for no strings attached sex with other women, and he was asking her to do all sorts of crazy things with men to "make him happy". He divorced her anyway which was his plan all along. Really sad story. Even though she cheated on him, I don't think she deserved that. It was pretty twisted in my opinion. He told me all this over drinks like it was no big deal.


Wow, that must have been tough for her. Is she okay now?


----------



## WallaceBea

theroad said:


> All the people that are now having issues swinging where spurting off their mouths just as you are now.
> 
> Marriages are meant for two, not three, four, or more.


Spurting off my mouth? No, not quite. Nor am I searching for someone else to join my marriage.


----------



## WallaceBea

Dad&Hubby said:


> What happens if the wife gets pregnant, puts on a few pounds and the husband keeps bringing in younger women who have much better bodies.


This would be swinging gone wrong, I'd say.


----------



## WallaceBea

xakulax said:


> If someone where to ask me do you think swinging is a good idea I would suggest this a test run. Go out one night to a club with your SO set at a table out sight and let your partner openly flirt and dance with other of the opposite sex as you watch them if something as simple as flirting and dancing causes jealousy rear its ugly head then you should ask your self how you would feel if your SO had gone all the way.
> 
> 
> My question OP is what are you hoping to gain from that lifestyle and what are you willing to risk to get it.


This would turn me on, I'd have to be in the right mood though....


----------



## WallaceBea

xakulax said:


> Swingers = occasional sex but not necessarily good sex there a term I see a lot in swingers forums* taking one for the team * lol kinda take the fun out of it when your SO has 10 and you have WTF 2


I'd never fool around with someone I wasn't attracted to, or "take one for the team". If my husband and I were to swing, we'd both want to be very attracted to the other parties.


----------



## WallaceBea

Disenchanted said:


> Lemme guess, your significant other is probably a great listener, provides a comfortable lifestyle and takes care of all of your emotional needs.


Yes, among other many amazing qualities, including mind numbing sex that just so happens to change the weather.


----------



## WallaceBea

bandit.45 said:


> I'm not dissing your choice in lifestyle. If the two of you can sustain the intimacy with other d!cks and vaginas in the mix, and if that is your kink, go for it.
> 
> Remember you are on a site with alot of betrayed spouses who were not given the choice to share their mates: the choice you and your husband have willingly given each other... hence the negative feedback.
> 
> I can only inject my experience and two cents and say that, for me, I would not be able to stomach it.
> 
> By the way, do you and hubby do same-room swapping or do you go off with your partners to other rooms? Do you go out with other partners by yourself and leave him home and vice versa? See, reason I ask is that I definitely could not handle that. IF I did choose to swing with a future partner, I would want to make damn sure she was in the same room with me so I could keep tabs on what was going on.


My husband and I do not swing, we've talked about it though, and are not opposed to it. 

It made me really sad the other day, while browsing threads and learning that many people on this site have had very heart breaking things happen to themselves and their significant others. It really humbled me, actually. I feel lucky to be here, and to hopefully be able to learn from other people.


----------



## bandit.45

Ashalicious said:


> *My husband and I do not swing, we've talked about it though, and are not opposed to it. *
> It made me really sad the other day, while browsing threads and learning that many people on this site have had very heart breaking things happen to themselves and their significant others. It really humbled me, actually. I feel lucky to be here, and to hopefully be able to learn from other people.


I was actually asking the Rosenberg that question, but please think it through 50 times before the two of you go through it. 

Remember, if you and hubby do take the plunge, it WILL change the nature of your marriage. There is just no getting around it. Once he sees you with another man on top of you and inside you, it WILL fundementally change his view of you....either positively or negatively.


----------



## WallaceBea

Disenchanted said:


> Because obviously he isn't sexually stimulating you and he probably isn't getting laid as much as he'd like to by you so he agreed to swing to make up for it.
> 
> If he wasn't your emotional tampon you might want to [email protected] him more and not other men instead.


This is rude.


----------



## bandit.45

Ashalicious said:


> This is rude.


Agreed. But I understand the emotion behind it.


----------



## Disenchanted

After becoming involved in this thread I tested the ex swinging girl I'm seeing about it. Wasn't very nice to do because she has beared her soul to me, but it was niggling in my mind. I, in my usual flirty way, wiggled the conversation to whether she would like to bring someone into the bedroom with me. 

She burst into tears and was upset all day long. She was in a swinging marriage for 15 years. She left that marriage some 8 years ago and has never taken that lifestyle up again and it is still affecting her in this way. It's horrible. She'd tell you not to do it if she were here. Veteran swinger you might say.

Even if your marriage survives a while, it will likely haunt you for the rest of your life.

I suggest you don't do it, very sternly.


----------



## Disenchanted

Ashalicious said:


> This is rude.


Was speaking to therosenberg.

And I am known to be rude, even I know it. I don't hold back.


----------



## WallaceBea

Disenchanted said:


> After becoming involved in this thread I tested the ex swinging girl I'm seeing about it.


It makes me uneasy that you felt the need to "test" your SO and causing her to be upset all day, because of a thread I started on an internet forum.


----------



## WallaceBea

Disenchanted said:


> Was speaking to therosenberg.
> 
> And I am known to be rude, even I know it. I don't hold back.


Fair enough, at least you know yourself.


----------



## therosenberg

Disenchanted said:


> Was speaking to therosenberg.
> 
> And I am known to be rude, even I know it. I don't hold back.


You don't sound rude to me.

Just bitter.

I don't hold back either.


----------



## Disenchanted

Ashalicious said:


> It makes me uneasy that you felt the need to "test" your SO and causing her to be upset all day, because of a thread I started on an internet forum.


She's not my significant other. She's involved in a heavy full fielded competition.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Ashalicious said:


> This would be swinging gone wrong, I'd say.


You should REALLY read the book. Opening Up.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Ashalicious said:


> My husband and I do not swing, we've talked about it though, and are not opposed to it.
> 
> It made me really sad the other day, while browsing threads and learning that many people on this site have had very heart breaking things happen to themselves and their significant others. It really humbled me, actually. I feel lucky to be here, and to hopefully be able to learn from other people.


The vast majority of opinions you have gotten on here have been from people who have NOT engaged in swinging. Google polyamorous percolations. It is not about swinging. But you will get better input there.


----------



## lonelyhusband321

Just my opinion here, but swinging is nothing but an affair that both of you know about.

I knew one couple, one time who started the "swinging" thing (the ONLY knowledge I have of it), and what happened to them was that she met someone who floated her boat. She openly started dating the guy and very simply threw a loving, caring, hard-working great guy to the curb.

They had been together for a little over 20 years, but "mister new" simply rung her bell....

I believe that the ONLY thing that can come of swinging is a disaster - pure and simple...


----------



## Dollystanford

Disenchanted said:


> She's not my significant other. She's involved in a heavy full fielded competition.


And what a prize she's after


----------



## lonelyhusband321

therosenberg said:


> That can happen whether the couple is into swinging or not. In this case you mention, she met someone through this lifestyle. But she could have met him going out for groceries.
> 
> This wasn't because they were swingers, this happened because obviously the marriage was lacking something essential and she went off with someone else.
> 
> Trust me, cheating happens also in monogamous marriages.


You're absolutely right, but swinging is much akin to walking into someone who's on a diet with a stacked tray of pastries.

Your point is spot on, though. It can happen in a hardware store, but it is much less likely that one would go to a hardware store SPECIFICALLY to have sex with another....


----------



## Married but Happy

lonelyhusband321 said:


> it is much less likely that one would go to a hardware store SPECIFICALLY to have sex with another....


Yes, but I've often gone for a screw!


----------



## lonelyhusband321

therosenberg said:


> I agree, but as I said, sex was not the issue. Sex is never the issue with swinging couples that end up breaking up. The issue is that all those marriages were lacking something and yeah, maybe the sex makes it more evident, more quickly. But without that "extra-marital" sex, it doesn't mean the problems would go away. It would only be like sweeping them under the carpet. The problems will still be there, they just might not become evident so quickly.
> 
> If you have a solid marriage and you're both open to have sex with other people, swinging can work!
> 
> I have been married for seven years


As they say 'whatever blows your dress up".

I'm not saying it never ever works for anyone. Perhaps your relationship IS that strong. Fantastic for you both if it is....

BTW - my friends had been married for 20+ years before "it" happened....


----------



## Married but Happy

lonelyhusband321 said:


> BTW - my friends had been married for 20+ years before "it" happened....


I know of a similar case. A couple married 30 years, seemingly happy, got into swinging. He suggested it, she jumped in enthusiastically. She agreed because she was _already_ cheating on him and used it to help cover and justify her behavior. She left him for the OM (not a swinger) soon after.


----------



## NobodySpecial

lonelyhusband321 said:


> You're absolutely right, but swinging is much akin to walking into someone who's on a diet with a stacked tray of pastries.


Only if you are on a diet.


----------



## DoF

therosenberg said:


> Marriages collapse all the time. I've been with Rick for seven years (ten if you count the three years we were dating before the wedding), but there are no guarantees. I cannot assure you we will still be together in 10 years. I take it one day at a time.
> 
> My first marriage lasted 18 months and it didn't need a threesome to collapse. It was just bad. Marriages end after 10 months or 30 years. There are no guarantees. But blaming it on a threesome or swinging is just avoiding responsibility for the situations that led to the marriage's collapse.
> 
> My opinion, anyway.


Can't disagree with what you have posted.....but I will add something....

Putting yourself in situations that have high risk towards people's relationship = playing with fire and can potentially tip the relationship on the wrong path.

Swinging = high risk situation, heck probably one of the highest risk situation I can think of.

No body is saying that swinging is wrong, I think what many are saying is that it's simply wrong thing to do if both partners are working hard on making relationship work.

It's easy to define boundaries and "be on the same page". It's VERY hard to actually follow the boundaries once you are intimate with other people and your feelings get caught up etc.

You just don't know what will happen once you go down that path and from many couples experiences......things fall apart FAST.


----------



## lonelyhusband321

DoF said:


> Can't disagree with what you have posted.....but I will add something....
> 
> Putting yourself in situations that have high risk towards people's relationship = playing with fire and can potentially tip the relationship on the wrong path.
> 
> Swinging = high risk situation, heck probably one of the highest risk situation I can think of.
> 
> No body is saying that swinging is wrong, I think what many are saying is that it's simply wrong thing to do if both partners are working hard on making relationship work.
> 
> It's easy to define boundaries and "be on the same page". It's VERY hard to actually follow the boundaries once you are intimate with other people and your feelings get caught up etc.
> 
> You just don't know what will happen once you go down that path and from many couples experiences......things fall apart FAST.


:iagree:

I wish I had said it THAT way....

That's my take pretty much exactly.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

therosenberg said:


> That can happen whether the couple is into swinging or not. In this case you mention, she met someone through this lifestyle. But she could have met him going out for groceries.
> 
> This wasn't because they were swingers, this happened because obviously the marriage was lacking something essential and she went off with someone else.
> 
> Trust me, cheating happens also in monogamous marriages.


Yes, but in the case of the swingers, you get to try on the clothes. Just as there is always someone smarter than you, there is someone who is a better lover, has better chemistry or is more well endowed than you. The best way to not buy the clothes is to not try them on ... because you might just like how you look in them.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

therosenberg said:


> I agree, but as I said, sex was not the issue. Sex is never the issue with swinging couples that end up breaking up. The issue is that all those marriages were lacking something and yeah, maybe the sex makes it more evident, more quickly. But without that "extra-marital" sex, it doesn't mean the problems would go away. It would only be like sweeping them under the carpet. The problems will still be there, they just might not become evident so quickly.
> 
> If you have a solid marriage and you're both open to have sex with other people, swinging can work!
> 
> I have been married for seven years


Seven years is not a long time. No marriage is without problems and there will be ebbs and flows to how strong it is and how connected you are with your spouse.


----------



## NobodySpecial

bandit.45 said:


> Agreed. But I understand the emotion behind it.


The emotional need to be nasty to someone else on this board? I cannot see how that is comprehensible.


----------



## GusPolinski

Very interesting thread/topic of discussion. Without offering any sort of opinion either way, I will say that, while I have my own opinions (as do we all), I don't necessarily judge or condemn those whose opinions differ from me. To each his/her own.

Having read through much of this thread (along w/ a "Threesomes" thread over in the Ladies' Lounge), I would like to ask some questions of those who are currently in open/swinging/poly-type relationships...

If your SO came to you and informed you that he/she no longer wanted to share you w/ others, how would you react to this?

Has this component of your relationship been in place from the start or is it something that came about after a period of time?

For the guys... If your wife/SO were to become pregnant by another man -- in spite of whatever precautions were taken -- as a result of your sexual activities, how would you react?

For the ladies, similar question... If your husband/SO were to impregnate another woman -- again, in spite of precautions -- as a result of your sexual activities, how would you react?

What would, in your eyes, constitute infidelity within your relationship? From I've read (in multiple threads), I get the impression that any sort of clandestine or "unshared" sexual experience would essentially be seen as cheating.


----------



## NobodySpecial

GusPolinski said:


> Very interesting thread/topic of discussion. Without offering any sort of opinion either way, I will say that, while I have my own opinions (as do we all), I don't necessarily judge or condemn those whose opinions differ from me. To each his/her own.
> 
> Having read through much of this thread (along w/ a "Threesomes" thread over in the Ladies' Lounge), I would like to ask some questions of those who are currently in open/swinging/poly-type relationships...
> 
> If your SO came to you and informed you that he/she no longer wanted to share you w/ others, how would you react to this?


Full stop. I would simply stop. Period. No further discussion needed.



> Has this component of your relationship been in place from the start or is it something that came about after a period of time?


MUCH later in our relationship.



> For the guys... If your wife/SO were to become pregnant by another man -- in spite of whatever precautions were taken -- as a result of your sexual activities, how would you react?


I can speak to this on my husband's behalf. We would discuss together what to do. There would have been no emotional issue. I know him.



> For the ladies, similar question... If your husband/SO were to impregnate another women -- again, in spite of precautions -- as a result of your sexual activities, how would you react?


I would react by offering my support to my friend who found herself in that position! It would be my view that it would be her and her husband's issue to figure out. If it were a friend who would not be insulted or offended, I would offer to help support the decision financially.




> What would, in your eyes, constitute infidelity within your relationship? From I've read (in multiple threads), I get the impression that any sort of clandestine or "unshared" sexual experience would essentially be seen as cheating.


Lying.


----------



## lovelygirl

Ashalicious said:


> Do you and your husband swing? Are you opposed to swinging?
> 
> My husband and I are not opposed to swinging, but we definitely are not ready yet. We simply do not want to share each other right now. We have talked about swinging though, and both agree we could see ourselves possibly being into swinging at some point.
> 
> That being said - several of our friends are swingers, and some are going through some emotional issues right now as a result of their swinging.
> *
> If we were to swing, we definitely wouldn't want any drama. That may be easier said than done though. *
> 
> What are your thoughts?


Didn't read the whole thread but...who goes into swinging thinking they want to add drama? 
Of course, nobody wants drama. That's not rocket science ....but if you look for trouble...then trouble you will find.


----------



## NobodySpecial

lovelygirl said:


> _Didn't read the whole thread but._..
> 
> who goes into swinging thinking they want to add drama?


If you want to know the latter, you might want to at least start with the former. Just saying.


----------



## Mrs Chai

Just want to chime in with my own exposure to this whole swinging and open marriage thing.

My husband encouraged this not too long ago. I thought I could deal with it and since he seemed enthused about the idea. I always received more offers for this type of play then he did, but never encouraged or really took them seriously.

The reason he wanted to get into this was because he met a girl that he wanted to sleep with. In turn, he wanted to do the swinging thing with a married couple we had been friends with and had been doing this for their whole relationship (which also continued after they were married). They seemed like they were okay, having fun, and there was no jealously issues. We had a strong relationship - why couldn't we?

What I learned was, I definitely could not handle the idea of my husband kissing another woman, much less penetrating them.

Unfortunately, we had made a verbal agreement, a verbal pass was made, and I was horribly hurt by it. It very nearly ended our marriage.

That couple who had the open relationship/swinging relationship? She is now divorcing him and is living with another guy who I can only assume was one of her men in her rotation (she had quite the rotation according to the husband, while he hardly had anyone). They just built a 300k house and she was gone within three months.

The other swinger friends disappeared when we were no longer interested.

Most of the men just wanted to boink me. I'm pretty sure my husband would have been 'part of a deal.'

So I regret even talking about it. I should have said no because the reasons I made up in my mind were frekkin stupid. And it changes your relationship forever. He never touched another woman, but him proposing it was as good as if he had.

So I heavily disagree with the idea of swinging or open relationships. I have yet to meet a couple -* IN REAL LIFE -* who have had a successful experience of living this lifestyle.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

therosenberg said:


> Mrs Chai said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have yet to meet a couple -* IN REAL LIFE -* who have had a successful experience of living this lifestyle.
> 
> 
> 
> I suppose we come from very different worlds. I know at least 9 couples, some of them have been together longer than I've been with my husband, who have been into swinging and they have yet to have a single problem caused by their lifestyle.
Click to expand...

Ha! All of you live in a different world than I do. When we get together with couples we make dinner, play games and talk about our kids. You guys must be ridiculously attractive. I'm a decent looking and fit guy and I have a difficult enough time getting my own wife to sleep with me let alone anybody else 

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## DoF

therosenberg said:


> I suppose we come from very different worlds. I know at least 9 couples, some of them have been together longer than I've been with my husband, who have been into swinging and they have yet to have a single problem caused by their lifestyle.


It takes certain people do to this sort of thing (clearly)......and I'm not trying to negative here, this is a complement.

I know myself ALL too well and there is NO way in hell I can put my emotions aside after having sex with someone. In time this would ruin my relationship for sure. But I also realize that many people can do so and NEVER let it effect their marriage/get emotional/grow feelings towards other (that's a strength IMO).

But at the same time, sex with no feelings is completely worthless to me as well so I just see 0 point to it. Actually, now that I think about it, it's actually quite a turn off/something I would simply not want to/couldn't do EVEN if I was single.

It's just not me.

I guess this makes me "not so typical man", and I'm proud of that!


----------



## DoF

therosenberg said:


> Oh, but there are emotions involved. You're not mistaken about that. Rick and I would never have sex with random strangers or people we don't know. We always do this with people we know, we trust, people we love. Really close friends with whom we share lots of other non-sexual experiences.
> 
> Trust me, I could never have sex with someone whose only role in my life is just that. Sex. I need a lot more than that! That's why we only do it with people we really, really love.


Interesting, learning new things every day.

I'm curious, where do you draw a line so that your SO is your main person? Or is it just a combination of people that you love?

How do you make sure that he is the one, vs they become "the ones"?


----------



## bandit.45

DoF said:


> Interesting, learning new things every day.
> 
> I'm curious, where do you draw a line so that your SO is your main person? Or is it just a combination of people that you love?
> 
> How do you make sure that he is the one, vs they become "the ones"?


Yeah I don't get the polyamory part of this. Do you all consider yourselves co-husbands and co-wives to everyone else? Are all the couples bisexual?

I think it's kind of fascinating.


----------



## karole

Fascinating to me too, but I could never partake in this lifestyle. I'm too selfish - I don't like to share - especially my husband!


----------



## DoF

karole said:


> Fascinating to me too, but I could never partake in this lifestyle. I'm too selfish - I don't like to share - especially my husband!


x2


----------



## ScarletBegonias

karole said:


> Fascinating to me too, but I could never partake in this lifestyle. I'm too selfish - I don't like to share - especially my husband!


I don't think of it as a selfish thing.Sharing my husband or myself with anyone else would take the specialness away from our marriage I think.I don't know how else to explain it.We have our personal little spark that's just ours.If we had sex with other people I feel like that spark wouldn't be ours anymore. I'm sure to the swingers who feel they're somehow more evolved than non swingers this notion is childish and that's totally fine by me.


----------



## DoF

therosenberg said:


> Well, we've never had a problem drawing a line regarding the "limits" and to be honest, there was never any need to do so. Rick and I are a couple and as such, our marriage is more than just the sex. What we share with our friends, among many other things, is sex. But there's an additional, deeper connection between Rick and I which is what led us to get married.
> 
> Just like those other couples, they have sex with us, but they have their own connections that define them as couples. There has never been any confusion or problems caused by this, because we all got into this with our eyes open.
> 
> I love all of them as friends, and I'm only madly in love with Rick. And he feels the same way about me, so there was never any need to draw a line. Regarding sexual orientation, Rick and I are indeed bisexual, but not all of our friends are that way, certainly not. Some of them, some of them aren't.
> 
> But seriously, it's not that complicated. We're just a bunch of friends. With benefits. Who happen to be married


Thanks for explanation. 

Do you guys have friends that are not part of your swinging lifestyle that are married (in traditional sense)? I would think no, but again, just curious.

It seems like you guys have reached a certain level of community (if you will).

Also are there any friends that are not married (single) that participate as well?


----------



## karole

ScarletBegonias said:


> I don't think of it as a selfish thing.Sharing my husband or myself with anyone else would take the specialness away from our marriage I think.I don't know how else to explain it.We have our personal little spark that's just ours.If we had sex with other people I feel like that spark wouldn't be ours anymore. I'm sure to the swingers who feel they're somehow more evolved than non swingers this notion is childish and that's totally fine by me.


If I had not wanted just my husband for the rest of my life, I would have never gotten married. What is the point of marriage if you love other people and have sex with other people?


----------



## bandit.45

therosenberg said:


> Well, we've never had a problem drawing a line regarding the "limits" and to be honest, there was never any need to do so. Rick and I are a couple and as such, our marriage is more than just the sex. What we share with our friends, among many other things, is sex. But there's an additional, deeper connection between Rick and I which is what led us to get married.
> 
> Just like those other couples, they have sex with us, but they have their own connections that define them as couples. There has never been any confusion or problems caused by this, because we all got into this with our eyes open.
> 
> I love all of them as friends, and I'm only madly in love with Rick. And he feels the same way about me, so there was never any need to draw a line. Regarding sexual orientation, Rick and I are indeed bisexual, but not all of our friends are that way, certainly not. Some of them, some of them aren't.
> 
> But seriously, it's not that complicated. *We're just a bunch of friends. With benefits. Who happen to be married :*)


FASCINATING....


----------



## DoF

karole said:


> If I had not wanted just my husband for the rest of my life, I would have never gotten married. What is the point of marriage if you love other people and have sex with other people?


I see it that way too, but clearly for some people there is a point. 

Nothing wrong with that either


----------



## DoF

therosenberg said:


> We have friends that are not into this lifestyle (both married and single) and yeah, we also have single friends with whom we have sex.


This is all WAY over my head. It seems extremely complicated and complex.

I have millions of questions, so I better just stop.

:scratchhead:


----------



## Disenchanted

therosenberg said:


> Feel free to ask anything you want.


Oh gawd don't tempt me, lol.


----------



## bandit.45

therosenberg said:


> Haha, no, don't worry.
> 
> Feel free to ask anything you want.
> 
> I enjoy talking about this!


Okaaaaaaaayyyy...


What is the biggest group you and hubby have been in? 

How wild does the sex get?


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

I have so got to stop reading this thread. My sex life was over before I hit 40. Problem is I can't help it ... it's like watching an intriguing movie about some far away place with fantastical characters. Keep thinking I need to turn it off but I want to see how the story ends, lol.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Disenchanted

therosenberg said:


> Isn't _abused_ a bit too negative?


Depends on the context. I, for example, have never yet met a woman who didn't like choking and spanking. Some guys get turned on by simulated rape, as do many women. In fact I just performed simulated rape a couple of hours ago, it was awesome. So when I say abused, I mean in a sexually provocative and stimulating way. Not all guys can do that kind of thing. It scares a lot of them.



therosenberg said:


> But I think I know what you mean. I'll try to keep it all very PG-13, but no, not really. Rick is the best lover I've ever had and we've tried and done everything.


Hard to believe, but I'll take your word for it. Bondage? 



therosenberg said:


> He's my husband. It would pretty weird, in my opinion, if I went really wild with other men and not my husband. In my head, that doesn't make much sense. Again, that's just me.


Like I said, not all guys are aware of things like this:

The nature of women's rape fantasies: an a... [J Sex Res. 2009 Jan-Feb] - PubMed - NCBI



therosenberg said:


> I don't know... does that answer your question?


Let's go with the simualted rape thing, has that ever happened with a man other then your husband while he was there?


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Disenchanted said:


> Depends on the context. I, for example, have never yet met a woman who didn't like choking ...


----------



## daffodilly

therosenberg said:


> Rick is the best lover I've ever had and we've tried and done everything.


I've been silently following this thread with complete fascination. I know swinging could never be for me and my husband, but what happens between 2 fully consenting adults is their business.

I have a genuine question though, Rosenberg.....if your husband is the best lover you ever had.....to me, I would read that sex with anyone else would be disappointing, because you can't top "the best". So I'm curious as to why you would want to sleep with others if sex is best with your H anyways.

I'm not picking an argument, I'm genuinely curious......


----------



## Regret214

I'm genuinely curious, too.

So, I'd like to see that pretty faced girl in the avatar take a picture with a newspaper or something with today's date. Only because this just seems like a story "too good to be true".


----------



## DoF

therosenberg said:


> Rick is the best lover I've ever had and we've tried and done everything. He's my husband. It would pretty weird, in my opinion, if I went really wild with other men and not with my husband. In my head, that doesn't make much sense.


This seems a bit weird to me. Can you explain?

Is there a certain line that cannot be crossed during sex with other men?

Even though you might feel that your husband is the best, I'm SURE there are men out there that can do a better job and have bigger private parts.

Assuming you run into such man, do you say no?

Also, having sex = going wild (to me). Do you have certain stages of sex acts? Like you do A but not B?


----------



## Disenchanted

daffodilly said:


> So I'm curious as to why you would want to sleep with others if sex is best with your H anyways.
> 
> I'm not picking an argument, I'm genuinely curious......


DP


----------



## Anon Pink

Not into choking. Touch my neck forcefully and die!


----------



## Disenchanted

> Although recent research has increasingly focused on human sexual selection, fundamental questions remain concerning the relative influence of individual traits on success in competition for mates and the mechanisms, form, and direction of these sexual selective pressures. Here, we explore sexual selection on men’s traits by ascertaining men’s dominance and attractiveness from male and female acquaintances. On a large American university campus, 63 men from two social fraternities provided anthropometric measurements, facial photographs, voice recordings, and reported mating success (number of sexual partners). These men also assessed each other’s dominance, and 72 women from two socially affiliated sororities assessed the men’s attractiveness. We measured facial masculinity from inter-landmark distances and vocal masculinity from acoustic parameters. We additionally obtained facial and vocal attractiveness and dominance ratings from unfamiliar observers. *Results indicate that dominance and the traits associated with it predict men’s mating success, but attractiveness and the traits associated with it do not.* These findings point to the salience of contest competition on men’s mating success in this population.


http://www.wellingresearchlab.com/uploads/1/3/5/7/13572010/hill_et_al._2013.pdf

This study goes counter to the idea that an attractive man would share his wife/partner/mate. Once he did do such a thing, his attractiveness would diminish. Of course, if my wife wanted to swing, have the other guy come into the bedroom, and then have me beat this sh!t out of him to turn her on, and he was willing, that would not go counter to the study.


----------



## Disenchanted

Anon Pink said:


> Not into choking. Touch my neck forcefully and die!


Starts with light kissing, nibbling, stroking, and on and on it goes.

Tell me you don't like the feeling of a little neck play, lol.

I found it abhorrent the first time I was asked "choke me!", I was actually terrified. But then I've come to find out that it can be quite pleasurable, but never done in a truly threatening or dangerous way.


----------



## Regret214

The only "problem" I have with the study provided is that it was completed at a university with frat boys and sorority girls. They don't even know what they want to do with their lives at that stage, let alone know what they want in a long term relationship.


----------



## DoF

Regret214 said:


> The only "problem" I have with the study provided is that it was completed at a university with frat boys and sorority girls. They don't even know what they want to do with their lives at that stage, let alone know what they want in a long term relationship.


Yep

Not to mention that they have 0 experience in relationships. Complete NEWBS.

It's like asking an infant to do a study on masturbation. Come on now.


----------



## Married but Happy

daffodilly said:


> ...if your husband is the best lover you ever had.....to me, I would read that sex with anyone else would be disappointing, because you can't top "the best". So I'm curious as to why you would want to sleep with others if sex is best with your H anyways.


That's a very good question. I think the answer is that someone new provides novelty and excitement. They aren't better (occasionally they may be a little better at one thing, but without having lengthy experience with the new person, they can't easily learn the important nuances that make for great sex). They have a different personality, or different body type, or an interesting technique that can be learned or just enjoyed. Variety is enticing.

As one swinger couple put it, "With each other, it's like having filet mignon every single day - but sometimes, you just want chicken!"


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Rosenberg, have you ever been "water tight"?

J/K, you don't have to answer that one.


----------



## Disenchanted

therosenberg said:


> Hah, I wonder if you're referring to what I think you're referring to...


A quick google will reveal all


----------



## Disenchanted

therosenberg said:


> Haha, no, I know what DP means, I was just wondering if that's exactly what you were referring to.


It was, so here's the question that comes to mind, have you tried TP? (use your imagination while replacing the D in DP with a T)

It's really the only thing I can think of that fits under the description that you used of "we can do things that two people can't physically do alone"

There are toys for that, just sayin'


----------



## omgitselaine

Plan 9 from OS said:


> Rosenberg, have you ever been "water tight"?
> 
> J/K, you don't have to answer that one.


Well ..... I'm kinda curious soooo ....... ????


----------



## Plan 9 from OS

Disenchanted said:


> It was, so here's the question that comes to mind, have you tried TP? (use your imagination while replacing the D in DP with a T)
> 
> It's really the only thing I can think of that fits under the description that you used of "we can do things that two people can't physically do alone"
> 
> There are toys for that, just sayin'


I would suspect it's the hands. You can use toys to plug holes, but you would need more than one person if you truly wanted to have multiple erogenous zones stimulated at the same time. One lover can hit a few of them but it would be very hard to concentrate on the task if you were trying to hit a bunch of them at the same time. I'm talking not just clit and breasts but nape of the neck, the stomach, backs of the knees, small of the back, etc. etc. I'd say caressing from multiple people would be more hot than becoming water tight... I would assume at least.


----------



## omgitselaine

therosenberg said:


> Hahaha, Elaine and Plan 9 from OS just asked me the same thing, so yeah, yes. That's one of the things you can't do with only one person. And people are way more fun than toys!


Thank you for ummmmm ................... " enlightening " me


----------



## Regret214

Ashalicious said:


> Do you and your husband swing? Are you opposed to swinging?
> 
> My husband and I are not opposed to swinging, but we definitely are not ready yet. We simply do not want to share each other right now. We have talked about swinging though, and both agree we could see ourselves possibly being into swinging at some point.
> 
> That being said - several of our friends are swingers, and some are going through some emotional issues right now as a result of their swinging.
> 
> If we were to swing, we definitely wouldn't want any drama. That may be easier said than done though.
> 
> What are your thoughts?


Thoughts are: It depends on you and your husband and the stability of your love/relationship. I've never known anyone into swinging, however I would imagine that having proper boundaries in place would be top of the list in a discussion. It just seems that too much drama would play out if everything wasn't on the table long _before_ venturing into another couple's bed.

Are there other things you can try? I mean, you said you don't want to share each other, but isn't that swinging? What about outdoor sex where possibly being seen could happen? Seems like a lot less drama.

Unless the cops are the ones who see you!


----------



## Disenchanted

Hey Rosenberg, mind if I call you Rosie?

_Posted via *Topify* using iPhone/iPad_


----------



## NobodySpecial

Mrs Chai said:


> Just want to chime in with my own exposure to this whole swinging and open marriage thing.


I want to be clear about something. People use the term swinging and open interchangeably. They are very much NOT. The risk/benefit analysis is a lot different for swinging than for open marriages.


----------



## Regret214

NobodySpecial said:


> I want to be clear about something. People use the term swinging and open interchangeably. They are very much NOT. The risk/benefit analysis is a lot different for swinging than for open marriages.


That seems like a valid point since an open marriage is just that - open to relationships with others outside of the marriage. Swinging seems more like a once in a while shin dig and not continuous.

Then again, I really have no clue and am purely speculating the point.


----------



## bandit.45

Zaz you say you are not into painful things but I would think DP would hurt.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Disenchanted

bandit.45 said:


> Zaz you say you are not into painful things but I would think DP would hurt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


It does, I'll never try that again.

:rofl:


----------



## bandit.45

Disenchanted said:


> It does, I'll never try that again.
> 
> :rofl:


That's funny right there.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## jaharthur

Disenchanted said:


> I, for example, have never yet met a woman who didn't like choking and spanking.


You clearly travel in a different social group than I do. I've never met a woman who liked to be choked and I know for darn sure my wife doesn't want to be spanked.


----------



## NobodySpecial

bandit.45 said:


> Zaz you say you are not into painful things but I would think DP would hurt.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


There is a right way. And a lot of wrong ways.


----------



## Anon Pink

Disenchanted said:


> Starts with light kissing, nibbling, stroking, and on and on it goes.
> 
> Tell me you don't like the feeling of a little neck play, lol.
> 
> I found it abhorrent the first time I was asked "choke me!", I was actually terrified. But then I've come to find out that it can be quite pleasurable, but never done in a truly threatening or dangerous way.


Neck play is entirely different than breath play.


----------



## Faithful Wife

So no recent pic for us Rosenberg?


----------



## NobodySpecial

therosenberg said:


> Haha, not if you're careful and if you're into that kind of thing.
> 
> If you do it with someone totally inexperienced or if you are inexperienced yourself, then yes, it can be quite painful and there can even be blood, which is not really my idea of a good time.


Yah. This.


----------



## ScarletBegonias

Faithful Wife said:


> So no recent pic for us Rosenberg?


OH we should do a thread for that! Write your username on a piece of paper w/date then take a selfie with it


----------



## GusPolinski

NobodySpecial, thanks for your replies to my earlier questions. Very enlightening.

therosenberg / Married But Happy, I'd be very interested to read any replies that you'd care to provide to the same questions...

If your SO came to you and informed you that he/she no longer wanted to share you w/ others, how would you react to this?

Has this component of your relationship been in place from the start or is it something that came about after a period of time? In the case of the latter, which of you initially suggested it? What were some of the drivers? *tr, you've pretty much already answered this one.*

For the guys... If your wife/SO were to become pregnant by another man -- in spite of whatever precautions were taken -- as a result of your sexual activities, how would you react? *tr, please feel free to answer for your husband (or yourself).*

For the ladies, similar question... If your husband/SO were to impregnate another woman -- again, in spite of precautions -- as a result of your sexual activities, how would you react?

What would, in your eyes, constitute infidelity within your relationship? From I've read (in multiple threads), I get the impression that any sort of clandestine or "unshared" sexual experience would essentially be seen as cheating.

How do you (or do you) reconcile your lifestyle with any religious beliefs that you may have? I actually meant to post this question earlier but somehow forgot it.


----------



## Disenchanted

Anon Pink said:


> Neck play is entirely different than breath play.


Actually it's more about reducing blood flow to the brain then restricting airflow to the lungs.


----------



## Anon Pink

Disenchanted said:


> Actually it's more about reducing blood flow to the brain then restricting airflow to the lungs.


My brain needs all the nourishing blood it can get! 

Now spanking my ass on the other hand...


----------



## Anon Pink

Where did Zazil go? I was hoping for a picture!


----------



## Anon Pink

Guess it takes a while to photo shop these things together~


----------



## Disenchanted

Anon Pink said:


> My brain needs all the nourishing blood it can get!
> 
> Now spanking my ass on the other hand...


Well don't look at me, when I was asked to do it the first time I was like "WTF is wrong with this woman?"

But in the heat of the moment I have found that lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of women like it.

I don't really think it's about restricting anything, more of a fantasy type thing, just the act and placement of the hand is what does it, I have never tried to asphyxiate someone. 

I'm a big guy, very strong, and I don't know if that has anything to do with this or not but I find that women are excited by being dominated physically by me. I don't think anyone's husband would want to see me do that to their wife.


----------



## Regret214

Anon Pink said:


> Guess it takes a while to photo shop these things together~


Like the Bill Gates Facebook one. :rofl:


----------



## Happyfamily

I just found my husband had been posting here, but it looks like he was thrown out. I have been looking through his computer. To see what he is saying about his mistress. 

It is going to be different for everyone. He just has a girlfriend he lives with when he is working out of state. Swinging is way different but I am here to say that we need to accept what people do. You have to talk everything through beforehand. Like for example how many people are going to know about it. Like sending pictures to high school buddies. 

We were just put on the spot by his mother. Last night. She saw an email to his brother. She called immediately, and asked who Melody was. The one thing we did agree about was that honesty was best in the end. If you are confronted by someone that matters. It's just that you want to be the one deciding how to tell people, and when. Not always possible.


----------



## Regret214

Disenchanted said:


> I'm a big guy, very strong, and I don't know if that has anything to do with this or not but I find that women are excited by being dominated physically by me. I don't think anyone's husband would want to see me do that to their wife.


LMAO :lol::lol::rofl::rofl:


----------



## karole

Disenchanted said:


> Well don't look at me, when I was asked to do it the first time I was like "WTF is wrong with this woman?"
> 
> But in the heat of the moment I have found* that lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of* women like it.
> 
> I don't really think it's about restricting anything, more of a fantasy type thing, just the act and placement of the hand is what does it, I have never tried to asphyxiate someone.
> 
> I'm a big guy, very strong, and I don't know if that has anything to do with this or not but I find that women are excited by being dominated physically by me. I don't think anyone's husband would want to see me do that to their wife.


I think one "lots" would have been more than sufficient, LOL!


----------



## bandit.45

Wow 


This thread took a hard left turn. Cool.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

So no pic rosenberg? It seems odd that you are happily answering all these personal sexual questions but can't answer my request for a pic that would show you really are the girl in those pictures.


----------



## NobodySpecial

GusPolinski said:


> How do you (or do you) reconcile your lifestyle with any religious beliefs that you may have? I actually meant to post this question earlier but somehow forgot it.


I missed this one! I am an atheist. My moral code hinges around values that are not enforced by a patriarchal god. I decide what is moral based on objective outcome assessment.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> So no pic rosenberg? It seems odd that you are happily answering all these personal sexual questions but can't answer my request for a pic that would show you really are the girl in those pictures.


Anyone who WOULD answer those question that honestly would be plain foolish to put their own face on their account. Zaz, tell me you did not do that!


----------



## Faithful Wife

She had previously said that is her in the picture and had no issue with putting it up there. So I just figured if that was true, she could post a current one with something with a date on it....why would she mind doing that if she already posted her own pic a few times?


----------



## Anon Pink

NobodySpecial said:


> Anyone who WOULD answer those question that honestly would be plain foolish to put their own face on their account. Zaz, tell me you did not do that!


Her avatar is her, her screen name is her real name. She has posted many pics of herself in the social section picture thread along with her birthdate. For someone as worldly as Zaz portrays herself to be, she is behaving quite foolishly.


----------



## Married but Happy

Why are people harrassing her about a picture? She has posted pictures in other threads and in her profile. That should be enough, and it really does not matter to the content of this thread if the pictures are really her, or not. I believe they are, but it makes no difference. Why doesn't everyone asking for one post their own with dated proof? Lead by example!


----------



## Regret214

NobodySpecial said:


> Anyone who WOULD answer those question that honestly would be plain foolish to put their own face on their account. Zaz, tell me you did not do that!


Ummm...she's posted a couple in Social already. Odd. They weren't requested but she jumped to put up the 2 that she had, yet now - no pic. 

In the words of Bandit, "FASCINATING".


----------



## bbdad

FW: What is your infatuation with people's avatars or pictures. I find your avatar really annoying, but I don't complain that you need to take it down or change. Isn't there much more important things in life (and forums) to worry about.


----------



## Regret214

JustPuzzled said:


> Zaz banned! Oh dear...


Oh noes. Wonder what happened?

:rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## Faithful Wife

bbdad said:


> FW: What is your infatuation with people's avatars or pictures. I find your avatar really annoying, but I don't complain that you need to take it down or change. Isn't there much more important things in life (and forums) to worry about.


Lol! bbdad...I think you had a shirtless avatar once and I got on your case, right?

So to you it seems like I'm on an avatar pitchfork mob brigade!!! 

But really, I'm not....this thread is literally the ONLY other time I've mentioned someone's avatar and in this case I mentioned it because I doubted rosenberg's sincerity in who she/it really is/was.

I don't blame you for thinking otherwise though because I did in fact get on your case once for it.

I know my avatar is annoying by the way.

It is from a Dr. Seuss book!


----------



## GusPolinski

NobodySpecial said:


> I missed this one! I am an atheist. My moral code hinges around values that are not enforced by a patriarchal god. I decide what is moral based on objective outcome assessment.


Yeah, sorry. I forgot to include it in my initial post. Again, thanks for the replies.


----------



## Amplexor

Faithful Wife said:


> because I doubted rosenberg's sincerity in who she/it really is/was.


An Adam's Apple is not easily detected on the web.


----------



## GusPolinski

JustPuzzled said:


> Zaz banned! Oh dear...


What the...not only banned but posts deleted as well...?


----------



## pidge70

Amplexor said:


> An Adam's Apple is not easily detected on the web.


----------



## bbdad

I have young kids. I know what the avatar is. Still annoying. But, I have heard you mention things about avatars and people's pictures before. Just weird in my opinion.


----------



## Disenchanted

Amplexor said:


> An Adam's Apple is not easily detected on the web.


LOL never seen anyone rope so many fools into their friend's list so fast.

Her insistence on PMing me kinda tipped me off, Especially after I told her more then once, explicitly, that I do not PM with married women.


----------



## Regret214

Amplexor said:


> An Adam's Apple is not easily detected on the web.


Until you hack the photobucket account...:smthumbup:


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I didn't know it was a Dr.Seuss thing FW! how cute I like it!

ETA: I feel Dr.Seuss is Waaaaay more appropriate for a marriage site than let's say...bare torso male models and cleavage shots.


----------



## Disenchanted

So there you have it OP, your biggest pro-swinging supporter wasn't even a real person. I told you those swingers are just no good!


----------



## Jellybeans

Disenchanted said:


> LOL never seen anyone rope so many fools into their friend's list so fast.


 It's usually a tip off, Dis.


----------



## Faithful Wife

bbdad said:


> I have young kids. I know what the avatar is. Still annoying. But, I have heard you mention things about avatars and people's pictures before. Just weird in my opinion.


Ok well, sorry to bug you.

I don't recall ever bugging anyone about an avatar except the shirtless type that one time (where I made a thread about it and everyone jumped my case) and this time (where I figured rosenberg was a troll). If you are saying I've done it some other time, I honestly don't remember doing it...I really don't care what people use for an avatar, though like I said I can see how it came off that way.

Um...sorry? Not sure what else I can say.

Rosenberg is/was in fact a troll so....my questioning of it speaks for itself.


----------



## pidge70

Jellybeans said:


> It's usually a tip off


Took me *FOREVER* to get the friends I have........


----------



## ScarletBegonias

I don't send friend requests. They're sent to me. 


LOL yeah I'm soooo cool


----------



## Disenchanted

Jellybeans said:


> It's usually a tip off, Dis.


What I read and what you wrote are wildly different things.

Hi JellyBeans, hubba hubba.


----------



## bandit.45

No way I would swing with any of my friends. They're all uglier than me, and that's saying something.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## pidge70

ScarletBegonias said:


> I don't send friend requests. They're sent to me.
> 
> 
> LOL yeah I'm soooo cool










:rofl:


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Well this movie had a plot twist I didn't expect.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## ScarletBegonias

pidge70 said:


> :rofl:


:rofl:


----------



## Faithful Wife

I feel sorry for whoever the girl in that pic really was. I suspect it was swiped from a profile and the poor real girl in that pic has no idea what was being said about her.

People sure can be jerks.


----------



## karole

Faithful Wife said:


> I feel sorry for whoever the girl in that pic really was. I suspect it was swiped from a profile and the poor real girl in that pic has no idea what was being said about her.
> 
> People sure can be jerks.


I bet the girl in the picture isn't 39 years old either!


----------



## pidge70

karole said:


> I bet the girl in the picture isn't 39 years old either!


I seriously doubt it. Hell, I'm 44 and I am aging quite well but, not that damn well.........


----------



## Regret214

I'm betting Amp was curious about a Sunni Islamic Jewish girl living in Mexico. Admittedly, that one stumped me to Gaza and back.


----------



## pidge70

Regret214 said:


> I'm betting Amp was curious about a Sunni Islamic Jewish girl living in Mexico. Admittedly, that one stumped me to Gaza and back.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Disenchanted said:


> LOL never seen anyone rope so many fools into their friend's list so fast.


When " she " mentioned that she got turned on seeing her younger husband being taken by other men , earlier on this thread, I knew for sure it was a male.
I stopped engaging " her."

LMAO,
I think SA was the first one to realize something was wrong with her avatar, last week , and asked her about it on her " _Hello TAM_" thread.


----------



## GusPolinski

There were some things in "her" posts that I found to be somewhat odd, but I just chalked it all up to the notion that not everyone on TAM fits into any sort of mold, per se. 

Oh well. I guess I need to start listening to my BS detector a bit more often.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Caribbean Man said:


> Disenchanted said:
> 
> 
> 
> LOL never seen anyone rope so many fools into their friend's list so fast.
> 
> 
> 
> When " she " mentioned that she got turned on seeing her younger husband being taken by other men , earlier on this thread, I knew for sure it was a male.
> I stopped engaging " her."
> 
> LMAO,
> I think SA was the first one to realize something was wrong with her avatar, last week , and asked her about it on her " _Hello TAM_" thread.
Click to expand...

Ooh, I didn't catch that ... I thought she was somewhat believable ... if you buy the premise of a completely drama free swingers life ... but that would have been a red flag. The pic definitely seemed way too young, even for a young 39. The age difference seemed odd but plausible ... him 29, her 39 ... and married for 7 years which would mean she was 32 and married a 22 year old. Could happen but atypical. I guess in retrospect ... too many possible but unusual 'facts'.

She even PM'd me thanking me for my objectivity. I would guess I'm not the only one who received that PM.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Disenchanted

A band of nuns wouldn't have convinced me that that picture was real. She did at one point post the entire picture used in her avatar, body and all. 

But faking a picture is one thing, faking the entire story is something else. 

You can tell when I decided she wasn't real, at least those of you who remember Rosie. 

Yikes. Flashbacks.

ETA if you want to put up a believable fake picture of yourself, make sure the person in it isn't beautiful


----------



## Regret214

I particularly enjoyed reading that she had a tubular and her hubby had a vasectomy so they could enjoy their lifestyle without worry.

Yes. That is absolutely the reason to have surgical procedures. So you can screw the world without fear of pregnancy.

Yeah.


----------



## SolitaryConfinement

I will tell you this. it is not for everyone. I was married for 19 years. midpoint in our marriage we got involved in the swinging lifestyle. We set ground rules for each other. seemed silly, but it worked. We had a great time for several years. you must be able to separate the physical aspect from the emotional. I was very fortunate, and we were both ready to step out of that at the same time. most I see with issues is when one overlooks what their partner is comfortable with or one is ready to stop and the other is not.

I am now divorced, but can honestly say that swinging had nothing to do with why we didn't work. there were other issues at hand over the last few years we were together. I would never do it again, but I have no regrets.

what I find that when people post things like this to forums, it is more that they are looking for acceptance or approval. I don't think you will find that here. I will say this. I am not advocating doing it, but if you do, make sure you are both doing it because you want to, and not 'for' the other person. Also make sure you are both on the same page with what you are willing to accept. Which ever you choose, I wish you the best in your marriage.


----------



## Hope1964

We're all just too predictable. My guess is there's people who know exactly what riles us up and do it just to entertain themselves.

I think Rosenberg was on par with the 'models' my husband got scammed by though. A he pretending to be a she to groom men - and women too in this case - to send 'her' money, using sex as the lure. I wouldn't doubt we could find the same pics on Adult Friend Finder or Sexsearch. Hopefully no one here exchanged phone numbers with him/her/it.


----------



## lilith23

My personal opinion is that sure, it probably can work for some, but there will always be a risk even thought there are rules to keep the risks minimal. Coz you know, sex is something intimate and passionate, so when you engage such act with someone there is a high risk to fall for this person.

So no, personally swing is not an option for me or my husband. We want someone who is focused on each other and what we build together and not risking it all for some extra fun. We just don't have such urge or need for that anyways, so it's easier for us.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Regret214 said:


> I particularly enjoyed reading that she had a tubular and her hubby had a vasectomy so they could enjoy their lifestyle without worry.
> 
> Yes. That is absolutely the reason to have surgical procedures. So you can screw the world without fear of pregnancy.
> 
> Yeah.



Yup,

I got that one too.


----------



## PieceOfSky

I recall "her" writing something to the effect she liked everyone here. That should have tipped everyone off "she" had some sort of truth or judgement problem. :what:


----------



## SolitaryConfinement

Ashalicious said:


> Yes, among other many amazing qualities, including mind numbing sex that just so happens to change the weather.


already posted once, but there are so many that are speaking out of fear and insecurity of their own relationship(s). Disenchanted comes across as the kid that got picked last for kickball. 

Swinging is NOT about going out and finding something 'better'. most of the time, when we went out, we came home and had 10x better sex with each other than we did with others earlier in the night. 

Again, I do not think it is for everyone, but when making your decision, try to see thru the witch hunters and fear mongers. Swinging itself does not destroy relationships, swinging may bring some of those other issues to light. 

Whatever you choose to do, just make sure you and your husband are on the same page.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Whenever I hear of married couples " swinging", I think of Trapeze artistes , and pictures like this cartoon comes to my mind:



You can never fully know what's on the other person's mind and how they would respond at that crucial moment when your everything is in _their_ hands.


----------



## Regret214

LOL! "...everything is in _their_ hands."


----------



## GusPolinski

Regret214 said:


> I particularly enjoyed reading that she had a tubular and her hubby had a vasectomy so they could enjoy their lifestyle without worry.
> 
> Yes. That is absolutely the reason to have surgical procedures. So you can screw the world without fear of pregnancy.
> 
> Yeah.


I did find that quite odd, but the ban was in effect and the post had been deleted before I had a chance to go over it in it's entirety, so I wasn't really able to respond to it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Married but Happy said:


> Why are people harrassing her about a picture? She has posted pictures in other threads and in her profile. That should be enough, and it really does not matter to the content of this thread if the pictures are really her, or not. I believe they are, but it makes no difference. Why doesn't everyone asking for one post their own with dated proof? Lead by example!


I'm not. It is her choice. I would not choose to do that. But it is her choice.


----------



## NobodySpecial

JustPuzzled said:


> Zaz banned! Oh dear...


For what?


----------



## NobodySpecial

GusPolinski said:


> I did find that quite odd, but the ban was in effect and the post had been deleted before I had a chance to go over it in it's entirety, so I wasn't really able to respond to it.


What is odd about it? If I did not want to get pregnant, I would do either or both regardless of lifestyle. If I did not want to get pregnant, I would not want to get pregnant from DH either I would think.


----------



## Regret214

NobodySpecial said:


> For what?



For being a fake. A rouse.

And a man!! 

LMAO - I think that's the fun part because while some got jiggy with what "she" was saying, HE was probably sitting in his parent's basement giving himself a go!

Remember, on the web, if she seems too good to be true, it's because it's probably a guy.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Lyris

It's interesting how everybody suddenly knew all along. Plenty of people drooling over those pics and accepting friend requests though, weren't there.

Scarlet knew from the first spamming of the pics thread. So did Dolly. I know FW and AnonPink did too. 

Not a very sophisticated troll this one. And more support for my rule of basically ignoring anyone for the first 12 months.


----------



## Regret214

Lyris, I laughed because her post count was just a few shy of mine after only being here less than two weeks. That always gives me pause.

Also, I like your 12 month rule. Perfect.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## CatholicDWC

Good in fantasy, not so good in reality.


----------



## Corkey88

My long ago ex-wife and I decided to have a MFF with a good friend of hers from out of town. My wife was bi-curious as was her friend and at first things went really well until of course, her friend started suggesting that even though we meet together usually, we could meet separately as well. That turned out to be a bad idea for our marriage as my ex just did not like the idea of her and I together when she wasn't there. 

Likely added to the demise of the relationship. Perhaps we if kept it as a group thing it may have worked. Who knows?


----------



## delirium

ScarletBegonias said:


> I don't send friend requests. They're sent to me.
> 
> 
> LOL yeah I'm soooo cool


I just started adding a few people to my friends list after a couple years on the forum. I honestly don't even know why. What is the friends list for?!


----------



## Thunder7

Lyris said:


> It's interesting how everybody suddenly knew all along. Plenty of people drooling over those pics and accepting friend requests though, weren't there.
> 
> Scarlet knew from the first spamming of the pics thread. So did Dolly. I know FW and AnonPink did too.
> 
> Not a very sophisticated troll this one. And more support for my rule of basically ignoring anyone for the first 12 months.


Speaking for those of us who were 'fooled' by therosenberg, most of our interaction was on the social section, where things are a bit more light and fluffy. I glanced at this particular thread, and 'her' participation and just thought 'Hmm, that's an interesting perspective'. I guess the signs were there, because 'she' apparently didn't come here with an issue to kick around. Had I not had an 'issue' I would have never found this place. 

In conclusion, it's kind of like the end of 'The Sixth Sense'. All the signs were there, yet most didn't see it.


----------



## Mrs Chai

Faithful Wife said:


> But really, I'm not....this thread is literally the ONLY other time I've mentioned someone's avatar and in this case I mentioned it because I doubted rosenberg's sincerity in who she/it really is/was.


As a long time forum user, most people with pics like that are not who they seem to be. I did my best to ignore their posts as I was fairly certain most of what it posted was troll material, especially when they started going into details about the swinging life. Trying a little too hard?

If I was wrong and she were that female, that kind of attention seems unnecessary in this forum, so either way - I wanted nothing to do with them.

I did not say anything since I chose the ignoring route. That and I know people like to carry a torch around here - esp if they're fooled into thinking it's a pretty woman. If there were a way to block her posts, I would have. 

At least it was caught quickly!


----------



## over20

delirium said:


> I just started adding a few people to my friends list after a couple years on the forum. I honestly don't even know why. What is the friends list for?!


It's for sharing "Wham" memories friend!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl:


----------



## delirium

over20 said:


> It's for sharing "Wham" memories friend!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl:


That is the best answer I could have hoped for!


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Thunder7 said:


> Speaking for those of us who were 'fooled' by therosenberg, most of our interaction was on the social section, where things are a bit more light and fluffy. I glanced at this particular thread, and 'her' participation and just thought 'Hmm, that's an interesting perspective'. I guess the signs were there, because 'she' apparently didn't come here with an issue to kick around. Had I not had an 'issue' I would have never found this place.
> 
> In conclusion, it's kind of like the end of 'The Sixth Sense'. All the signs were there, yet most didn't see it.


All the signs were there, but individually they seemed plausible even if a little odd. Had to put it all together.

I am curious though as to how we know 'she' was a man. Do we know that or are we just speculating? I wonder how it was decided she/he was a troll ... I mean it makes sense but what pulled the "ban trigger".


----------



## Thunder7

JustSomeGuyWho said:


> All the signs were there, but individually they seemed plausible even if a little odd. Had to put it all together.
> 
> I am curious though as to how we know 'she' was a man. Do we know that or are we just speculating? I wonder how it was decided she/he was a troll ... I mean it makes sense but what pulled the "ban trigger".


To your first sentence, correct. And if you're just on social, even more plausible, because things of real consequence are rarely discussed there. 

Secondly, I think the 'male' thing is just speculation. But I am really curious as to what was the final straw that lead to the troll determination.


----------



## GusPolinski

Thunder7 said:


> But I am really curious as to what was the final straw that lead to the troll determination.


Ditto. Clearly I have a terrible track record in this regard. I guess I tend to take people at their word a bit too much.


----------



## mrbigmrssexy

Ash - You have run into a bunch of people here that have no real experience (or clue for that matter) in swinging. Yet several go way beyond expressing an opinion and have been quite harsh and as you noted to one, quite rude. 

If you want to get some more positive responses that actually come from people with experience in swinging, drop into the swingers forum at reddit and the forum at swingersboard.com. You will find the advices there a little bit more real and factual.

Here's to some great experiences that add to you and your husband's lives.






Ashalicious said:


> My husband and I do not swing, we've talked about it though, and are not opposed to it.
> 
> It made me really sad the other day, while browsing threads and learning that many people on this site have had very heart breaking things happen to themselves and their significant others. It really humbled me, actually. I feel lucky to be here, and to hopefully be able to learn from other people.


----------



## Lyris

It's been confirmed that therosenberg is a man, as far as I know. He posts elsewhere in ways that make it clear.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## soccermom2three

Regret214 said:


> Lyris, I laughed because her post count was just a few shy of mine after only being here less than two weeks. That always gives me pause.
> 
> Also, I like your 12 month rule. Perfect.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


I'm always suspicious of new posters that are posting a crazy amount.

I also have another clue but I don't want to reveal because I don't want them to change their M.O.


----------



## docinabox

I know this thread is long but thought I'd give some perspective to this. My wife started playing about 12 years ago, we haven't played in about 2 years although not against it, it's just a different phase of the at the moment. Swinging IS playing with a flame, we had some amazing experiences with very close friends over the years. We also had some crazy stupid drama along the way. My wife and I love to do stuff together, so it was a fun hobby and the fact that you are playing with fire, you HAVE to communicate a lot and keep an open mind. The one thing that people don't talk about is simple things like intimacy. I believe now that swinging kills intimacy. I don't mean that our marriage is on the rocks or anything because of it, but sharing your partner just kind of cheapens it in the big picture. You HAVE to stay away from doing parties every weekend, and have special things that only the two of you share. I'm generally glad we had the many experiences that we did, but it did come at a small cost.


----------



## docinabox

one more thing, people rationalize that if we swing, than we won't be tempted to cheat. I've seen it happen among swingers just as much as non swingers....and I'm a casualty of temptation as well....so it's no utopia. My 2 cents


----------



## groovebaer63

Caribbean Man said:


> And I suppose securing you luxury vehicle when you park it in a private parking lot , or securing your home when you leave for work is also useless because many people who do , still suffer from vehicular theft and burglary anyway.
> 
> But my guess is that it all comes down to what value you place on your possessions right?
> 
> If you value your vehicle , you will secure it no matter if chances are , car thieves might still take it . At least you want to make it a little harder for them and decrease the chances of it being stolen.
> 
> Same thing with your house , you won't leave the doors and windows wide open when nobody's at home or at night when you go to bed , for the same reason . You want to protect it , even though chances are that a burglar could still force his way in.
> 
> So basically , people tend to protect things they value most.
> Even when the chances of loosing it are high ,sometimes they would even protect it with their life.
> 
> I was thinking maybe that same logic can be applied to marriage .
> If your spouse means a lot to you , then why would you deliberately take a chance at loosing them ?
> To prove what?
> That you are secure and emotionally strong?
> 
> There are many other ways to discover that with a much lower risk benefit ratio .
> 
> But it all comes down to the value you place on your relationship , versus the value you place of feeling of a temporary sexual high.


I agree with your basic line of thought ... though your metaphore ehmm :scratchhead: let's say is flawed. I wouldn't compare m marriage with my luxury car or even house - both of which sometimes stay open at night :flowerkitty:


----------



## Tony Conrad

"Drink water from your own well - share your love only with your wife. Why spill the water of your springs in public, having sex with just anyone? You should reserve it for yourselves. Don't share it with strangers. Let your wife be a fountain of blessing for you. Rejoice in the wife of your youth. She is a loving doe, a graceful deer. Let her breasts satisfy you always. May you always be intoxicated with her love. Why be captivated my son, with an immoral woman, or embrace the breasts of an adulterous woman?"
Proverbs 5: 15/20 New Living Translation


----------



## Lyris

Adulterous women have the best breasts though


----------



## Caribbean Man

docinabox said:


> one more thing, people* rationalize* that if we swing, than we won't be tempted to cheat. I've seen it happen among swingers just as much as non swingers....and I'm a casualty of temptation as well....so it's no utopia. My 2 cents


I read a quote sometime ago on a psychology forum that went like this :

" _Human beings aren't rational, we are rationalizing animals.._."

And my observation is that we tend to rationalize things in a way that's congruent with our personal biases and desire for immediate, most times, sensory pleasure.

One of the reasons Methamphetamine or " Meth" is so popular with women is that it not only gives them a temporary relief from their troubles, but it also gives them a sexual high. Makes them laugh , smile ,forget their problems, relax , feel to dance. 
But the most addictive part of it's effects is that it increases their libido. 
I makes them lose their inhibition and increases exponentially, the immediate desire for sex.
It isn't that these women don't know that meth is bad, but they rationalize that they can control the long term effects of it.
The look around and see other users who seem to have everything in tact in spite of their usage , and delude themselves into thinking that they could handle it.
Most times they are introduced to it by _trusted friends _and the rationalization process begins.

Sometime ago, I did a thread on the issue of threesomes and swinging . During the course of that thread , i received tons of PM's from readers who never posted on the thread, members of TAM and others who were involved , but didn't want to go public with their story.
All of them said the same thing to me.
Swinging and Threesomes helped destroy some , and in many cases all of the intimacy in their marriage.

There are just about three active female posters right here on TAM who told me via PM that they were involved in it , only because of their husband's medical condition that prevented them from having sex. And in their cases, the husband had veto power over who they had sex with, and the rules were that they were not supposed to contact the person after without the husband's knowledge.
One even told me that their rule was she never had sex with the same person twice, and it wasn't done often.

Anyway, all three women said that it wasn't something which they particularly enjoyed, because of it's deleterious effects on intimacy in their marriage.


----------



## NobodySpecial

docinabox said:


> I know this thread is long but thought I'd give some perspective to this. My wife started playing about 12 years ago, we haven't played in about 2 years although not against it, it's just a different phase of the at the moment. Swinging IS playing with a flame, we had some amazing experiences with very close friends over the years. We also had some crazy stupid drama along the way. My wife and I love to do stuff together, so it was a fun hobby and the fact that you are playing with fire, you HAVE to communicate a lot and keep an open mind. The one thing that people don't talk about is simple things like intimacy. I believe now that swinging kills intimacy. I don't mean that our marriage is on the rocks or anything because of it, but sharing your partner just kind of cheapens it in the big picture. You HAVE to stay away from doing parties every weekend, and have special things that only the two of you share. I'm generally glad we had the many experiences that we did, but it did come at a small cost.


It is heady at first, to be sure. But really, if a couple is not putting the time and energy into their relationship, that needs to be fixed, regardless of what the distraction is.


----------



## NobodySpecial

docinabox said:


> one more thing, people rationalize that if we swing, than we won't be tempted to cheat. I've seen it happen among swingers just as much as non swingers....and I'm a casualty of temptation as well....so it's no utopia. My 2 cents


I think this is backwards, and not something I have ever heard from an actual swinger. If there is an inherent fear or risk of cheating, then your marriage is not strong enough for swinging.


----------



## Csquare

Maybe it's just me, but I can't get past the creepy-crawlyness of it.


----------



## docinabox

[QSUOTE=NobodySpecial;8245001]I think this is backwards, and not something I have ever heard from an actual swinger. If there is an inherent fear or risk of cheating, then your marriage is not strong enough for swinging.[/QUOTE]

And that's why I thought it perfectly appropriate to give that other side perspective. We never felt a fear of cheating ever. But if you dont guard your heart then each of us is doomed to make this same mistake. The consequences I believe are far worse than any consensual sex act with strangers.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Csquare said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I can't get past the creepy-crawlyness of it.


It does feel "creepy crawly" to me. To me, sex isn't just something you do to get off and have fun (no matter what my wife is convinced I think) ... it is something special that I share with my partner and only my partner. Guess I'm not evolved enough.

_Posted via *Topify* on Android_


----------



## Married but Happy

A little reading for anyone who cares to dig deeper:

Women, Swinging, Sex, and Seduction | Psychology Today

Are Swingers Freaky and Deviant? | Psychology Today

Swingers: Mentally Healthier Than Monogamous Peers | Psychology Today

Can Swingers Have a Happy Marriage? | Psychology Today

Can Swingers Have a Happy Marriage? | Psychology Today

Exchanging Partners for Recreational Sex | Psychology Today

New Sexual Revolution: Polyamory May Be Good for You - Scientific American


----------



## Faithful Wife

Or for the opposite angle, here's my blog post about similar discussion:

I Married a Sex God: How to Get Some Strange but Stay Monogamous


----------



## bandit.45

I have too much body shame to swing. Only beautiful perfect people make good swingers I would think.
_Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## Faithful Wife

Yeah, no...it is certainly not just perfect people who swing.

Most swingers do have better self-esteem and body image, though, just going off the ones I have known. No matter what they looked like, they were confident in their bodies.

I do think swingers, on average, are highly sexual people and highly sexual people tend to be able to feel sexual attraction to a wider range of body types.


----------



## Oldfaithful

bandit.45 said:


> I have too much body shame to swing. Only beautiful perfect people make good swingers I would think.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_



I've been lurking....your post made me LOL. 
I used to have quite a few friends who were in open marriages and/or would have threesomes with a woman. Let's just say the majority of these people were not that attractive. 
In fact sometimes just the thought of certain people getting it on was too much for me and I had a lot of TMI moments. 
Including accidentally seeing a rather homely couple going at it doggy style at night at a camp ground. 
I think there's this mental picture of the hot couples in suburbia only being involved. 
But there are quite a lot of average looking people in the lifestyle as well. 
In fact I watched a rather attractive woman try to pick up another attractive woman for a threesome and when she saw the older rather average husband, she didn't want any part in it. 

I don't think that the divorce rate is any higher for couples who agree to be in the lifestyle. But they had a lot more drama IMO. Usually women involved with a man in an open marriage aren't interested in him when they find out that the wife is truly ok with it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> Yeah, no...it is certainly not just perfect people who swing.


Haaahhaaaa. yah. no.


----------



## old_soldier

treyvion said:


> That's what they do. A good answer for a non-swinger would be "you can have all the sexual partners you want, I'm fine with that. But you will be single"


That's pretty much what I told my ex-wife when she thought it would be a good idea to have an open marriage after I caught her cheating.


----------



## treyvion

old_soldier said:


> That's pretty much what I told my ex-wife when she thought it would be a good idea to have an open marriage after I caught her cheating.


Smart man. "It's ok. You can go on ahead and swing, and I'll find a reliable and trustworthy partner"


----------



## pidge70

bandit.45 said:


> I have too much body shame to swing. Only beautiful perfect people make good swingers I would think.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


----------



## old_soldier

happi_g_more2 said:


> true, however, thats not whats being discussed. We're talking swinging, not cheating


Infidelity is still infidelity, regardless of whether you justify it with negotiation or not. Infidelity is cheating. It cheats the participants of an exclusive loving relationship.

My question is, if you really love and respect your spouse, why would you allow someone else to intimately touch them? 

That makes no sense to me.


----------



## old_soldier

A little advice, for what it's worth, "when you choose the behaviour, you choose the consequences."

Every choice of behaviour has consequences.

For those of you who have a different set of rules regarding morality,
Ted Bundy admitted he had a different moral code, one that told him rape and murder was OK. Did that make it right?

Morality is set by societal norms, not by the wants and whims of the individual, so is swinging moral? What does society as a whole say about that?

Do not use the argument " I have my own morality" to justify bad behaviour.

IMHO


----------



## NobodySpecial

old_soldier said:


> Morality is set by societal norms, not by the wants and whims of the individual, so is swinging moral? What does society as a whole say about that?


I don't agree with this. If this were the case, slavery would have been moral simply because it was socially acceptable. I don't think slavery is ever moral. Morality is more about respecting the rights of others, as well as caring for ones mental health.

Society as a whole has so much dysfunction, it has no business dictating morality to individuals. That is the responsibility of the individual.


----------



## Caribbean Man

NobodySpecial said:


> *I don't agree with this. If this were the case, slavery would have been moral simply because it was socially acceptable. I don't think slavery is ever moral. *Morality is more about respecting the rights of others, as well as caring for ones mental health.
> 
> Society as a whole has so much dysfunction, it has no business dictating morality to individuals. That is the responsibility of the individual.


...and individuals makes this magical entity we call " society."

“_All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth_.” 
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Throughout history ,slavery _was_ moral, for hundreds maybe thousands of years.
And it was moral for_ because_ society accepted it. Even the bible justified slavery by instructing owners of slaves to treat them a certain way.

The industrial revolution was what put an end to modern chattell slavery. It became cheaper to mass produce sugar and cotton than to purchase and maintain slaves.

Hitler was able to murder millions of Jews whilst the West looked on and did nothing because they didn't feel threatened by what he was doing. It didn't affect , them directly. The German masses bought into his doctrine of hatred because it benefited them. Germany was at an all time low post WWI, hyper inflation and poverty ravaged the country. Hitler was the answer Germans _desired_.
It was only when the London was terrorized and flattened by
Hitler raining bombs from the sky for 57 consecutive days, in what he nicknamed " the blitz " then the " Western alliance " decided to come out of their slumber and joined the war .

Pre Sept 11, 09 the USA respected Islam, and Americans had no problem with Muslims in their country and were strongly opposed to their government's involvement in the affairs of Islamic rogue states that bred terrorists.. Post 9-11 , all of that changed, drastically. It became morally acceptable for the government to authorize an attack on an Islamic state without UN approval or evidence that it was behind the Sept 9-11 massacre.

Just a few examples.

Fact is, it is society, that dictates what is morally acceptable or not.
Whether we accept society's standards or decide to adopt our own is an entirely different thing , and we are free to do so.
If the amount of people rejecting existing societal mores exceed the critical mass, a new moral code is introduced , and soon enough , some individuals would reject it, and the cycle repeats itself.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Caribbean Man said:


> Just a few examples.


All of which demonstrate my point. Society can and does act in horribly immoral ways.



> Fact is, it is society, that dictates what is morally acceptable or not.
> Whether we accept society's standards or decide to adopt our own is an entirely different thing , and we are free to do so.


No society dictates what it thinks of as acceptable. That bears no relationship to morality because morality is not subjective.


----------



## Caribbean Man

NobodySpecial said:


> All of which demonstrate my point. Society can and does act in horribly immoral ways.
> 
> 
> 
> No society dictates what it thinks of as acceptable. That bears no relationship to morality because morality is not subjective.


Morality is a man-made concept that is defined by the society you live in; it is subjective. 

There is nothing existing in nature called morality , because it is not a tangible object neither a fixed or transferable commodity.

It cannot be calibrated or measured. It is a concept that originates in humans hence it is subjective and personal.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Caribbean Man said:


> Morality is a man-made concept that is defined by the society you live in; it is subjective.


I simply don't agree that that is a very good or useful morality. Certainly not one I follow. Society does not demand of me the degree of community, charity and caring that I engage in. Society's morality is weak and restrictive. Looking to society and authority for a definition of morality is a lazy way out of thinking for oneself about the effects on oneself, ones family, ones community and the world. If this was what morality really was, there would be no need for freedom. There would be no need for progress. As long as we were all doing the same thing, regardless of what it is, we'd be "right". And that just is not so.

The society I live in is more concerned with sexual puritanism than peace, charity, kindness and love. If that is morality, then I want no part of it.



> There is nothing existing in nature called morality , because it is not a tangible object neither a fixed or transferable commodity.
> 
> It cannot be calibrated or measured. It is a concept that originates in humans hence it is subjective and personal.


All ideas originate from man. I am looking at granola in a canister in my kitchen. That man came up with the word for canister and the canister itself make them no less real. Man's capacity for thought brought us other brilliant concepts like peace, justice, caring, kindness. That these concepts were put to words make them no less real.

I do actually think you see examples of moral behavior in nature all the time btw. Even among the bonobos.


----------



## Caribbean Man

NobodySpecial said:


> I simply don't agree that that is a very good or useful morality. Certainly not one I follow. Society does not demand of me the degree of community, charity and caring that I engage in. Society's morality is weak and restrictive. Looking to society and authority for a definition of morality is a lazy way out of thinking for oneself about the effects on oneself, ones family, ones community and the world. If this was what morality really was, there would be no need for freedom. There would be no need for progress. As long as we were all doing the same thing, regardless of what it is, we'd be "right". And that just is not so.
> 
> The society I live in is more concerned with sexual puritanism than peace, charity, kindness and love. If that is morality, then I want no part of it.
> 
> And that's ok. But can you see that it is subjective? Because it originated in your mind and is based on nothing but how you feel, in contrast to how the majority in society feel, hence it is as subjective as theirs is.
> Unless of course, you can prove otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All ideas originate from man. I am looking at granola in a canister in my kitchen. That man came up with the word for canister and the canister itself make them no less real. Man's capacity for thought brought us other brilliant concepts like peace, justice, caring, kindness. That these concepts were put to words make them no less real.
> 
> I do actually think you see examples of moral behavior in nature all the time btw. Even among the bonobos.
> 
> You are confusing two things here.
> A plastic container is simply a bye product of hydro carbon based chemical engineering. It is the end product of a chemical process called polymerization .
> If you look below that plastic container, you would see a number of symbols , one of them a triangle meaning it is recyclable, food grade plastic , and that it is either made from polyvinyl chloride or polyvinyl acetate. These are set industry manufacturing standards. They are not subjective ,they set , factual standards.
> If that container didn't meet those standards, then it wouldn't be on your kitchen table with a granola bar inside, but in your husband garage , with tools in it instead of food.
> 
> Similarly, the container itself , even though the process that made it came from a man's mind , is not and can never be a concept or a construct. On a molecular level , it consists of atoms .
> The _idea_ of what that container can be used for is subjective, not the container itself.Whether you believe it is a container or not , doesn't change the fact that it is made from polyvinyl chloride, and that it can be used to store granola, or any type of organic substance.
> That is _fixed_.
> 
> An idea or construct such as morality cannot be compared to a plastic container because it cannot be broken down to a molecular or sub atomic level. Everything material that exists in a natural state, can.


----------



## NobodySpecial

> And that's ok. But can you see that it is subjective? Because it originated in your mind and is based on nothing but how you feel, in contrast to how the majority in society feel, hence it is as subjective as theirs is.
> Unless of course, you can prove otherwise.


Thinking and feeling are not the same thing. I am not feeling when I am doing calculus, physics. My kids are not feeling their math homework. They are using the grey matter in their brains. Thinking. Pretty sure Socrates did not emote his philosophy.

As with science, what philosophers have figured out about the human condition and this morality thing changes over time. That it is hard and we don't always know what it is does not make it subjective. Just as it does not make sense to say, we don't know where we come from, must be god, it makes no sense to say just because we can't always understand morality, it must shift in the breeze.

We are talking about morality here. The study of right and wrong. 

Looking at what my society says about rape. Let's see. It is wrong. Unless you can get your coach to sweep it under the rug. It is wrong unless you are the winning coach of the Penn state football team. I am here to tell you that every mother of every little boy on the planet KNOWS that it is wrong to stick you penis into an unwilling little boy by force. I don't care 2000 BC Egyptian Mom or a 2014 Mom from New Jersey.


----------



## TikiKeen

Side note about body image and swinging: I've been to two swingers clubs in my life, and at both, the ratio of fit to obese was 1:4. I kid you not.

I don't get to define others' marriages, but I know that right now, in my marriage, swinging is a no-go. So is open marriage. I can't predict what my marriage will look like in 10 years, so I stay in "right now". Right now, I don't get to tell others how to be married, because I don't know the context of their marriages. I do know this though: violence has done more damage to humans than has sex. Sadly, we intertwine them by assuming violence can be justified under certain circumstances. For me, it never is justified.


----------



## Caribbean Man

NobodySpecial said:


> Thinking and feeling are not the same thing. I am not feeling when I am doing calculus, physics. My kids are not feeling their math homework. They are using the grey matter in their brains. Thinking. Pretty sure Socrates did not emote his philosophy.
> 
> As with science, what philosophers have figured out about the human condition and this morality thing changes over time. That it is hard and we don't always know what it is does not make it subjective. Just as it does not make sense to say, we don't know where we come from, must be god, it makes no sense to say just because we can't always understand morality, it must shift in the breeze.
> 
> We are talking about morality here. The study of right and wrong.
> 
> *Looking at what my society says about rape. Let's see. It is wrong. Unless you can get your coach to sweep it under the rug. It is wrong unless you are the winning coach of the Penn state football team. I am here to tell you that every mother of every little boy on the planet KNOWS that it is wrong to stick you penis into an unwilling little boy by force. I don't care 2000 BC Egyptian Mom or a 2014 Mom from New Jersey.*


This^^^ right there demonstrates the subjectivity of morality.
Perfect example!

What if your husband decided tomorrow that he's no longer interested in an open marriage. [ assuming both of you were involved in swinging]
Then what would do with the aspect of your beliefs that supported an open marriage?
Obviously, either you change it or divorce your husband.
Furthermore , what would you do if next year you became pregnant for your husband and bore a child. Are you certain that you would think and consequently feel the same way about having an open marriage ? [ ie;if you are involved in one.]

Do you believe violence or killing is ever justified?
What if you had to decide between killing the perpetrator in order to save your loved one's life?
Would you allow your loved one to be killed because you morality dictates that life is sacred?

That's why morality is subjective.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Caribbean Man said:


> This^^^ right there demonstrates the subjectivity of morality.
> Perfect example!


I am trying to understand what you are trying to say. Does popular agreement MAKE something actually right? I don't think so. I think you think the word morality actually means that which is agreed upon. It doesn't. Or at leas the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy doesn't think so. But what do they know! I think a thing IS right on its own based on its impact to important values like justice, goodness, kindness, caring, love and peace.



> What if your husband decided tomorrow that he's no longer interested in an open marriage. [ assuming both of you were involved in swinging]


We have never been involved in an open marriage. We used to swing. You know that those two things are different, right?



> Then what would do with the aspect of your beliefs that supported an open marriage?


My belief is not that swinging is right. But that it is not wrong. What you DO with it is either right (good) or wrong (bad).

We don't swing anymore. If he were to decide (highly unlikely) that our current poly-amorous relationship was not for him, the right thing to do for him, or my relationship, for my family and for the other members of the relationship would be to end it. 



> Obviously, either you change it or divorce your husband.
> Furthermore , what would you do if next year you became pregnant for your husband and bore a child. Are you certain that you would think and consequently feel the same way about having an open marriage ? [ ie;if you are involved in one.]


Well that is funny! I don't have the parts for a pregnancy. But at one time I was capable. I don't see the problem. I got pregnant. So what? 



> Do you believe violence or killing is ever justified?


Why are you assuming that I think killing is necessarily immoral. Not all killing is for the same reason or the same outcome.



> What if you had to decide between killing the perpetrator in order to save your loved one's life?
> Would you allow your loved one to be killed because you morality dictates that life is sacred?
> 
> That's why morality is subjective.


That is not subjectivity. That is making round assumptions.

Anyway I suppose that was a fun conversation. Cheers.


----------



## NobodySpecial

NobodySpecial said:


> I am trying to understand what you are trying to say. Does popular agreement MAKE something actually right? I don't think so. I think you think the word morality actually means that which is agreed upon. It doesn't. Or at leas the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy doesn't think so. But what do they know! I think a thing IS right on its own based on its impact to important values like justice, goodness, kindness, caring, love and peace.


Hey. I stand corrected:

"descriptively to refer to some codes of conduct put forward by a society or,

some other group, such as a religion, or
accepted by an individual for her own behavior or
"

Blech.

My preference is for this definition:

"normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons."

I don't see much use in the former. There is no motive for positivity, change for the better, bettering oneself or caring for those in need. All one has to do is sink to the lowest common denominator.


----------



## Lyris

There are things that are objectively right and wrong, no matter what culture or society says. 

Things that hurt people are wrong. Things that deprive certain groups of people of liberty, dignity and a decent life are wrong. They may be accepted, celebrated and form part of the fabric of society, but they are wrong. 

Hiding behind cultural relativity is a way of avoiding making judgements or feeling uncomfortable about your own lack of action.


----------



## Oldfaithful

old_soldier said:


> Infidelity is still infidelity, regardless of whether you justify it with negotiation or not. Infidelity is cheating. It cheats the participants of an exclusive loving relationship.
> 
> 
> 
> My question is, if you really love and respect your spouse, why would you allow someone else to intimately touch them?
> 
> 
> 
> That makes no sense to me.



The people I knew who were swingers or in open marriages did it because they saw the failure of marriages of their parents and the people around them. They thought if they changed the parameters of marriage they would have a better outcome. 
Many were hurt by cheating parents and came to believe infidelity is going to happen no matter what you do so you might as well be open about it.


----------



## JustSomeGuyWho

Lyris said:


> There are things that are objectively right and wrong, no matter what culture or society says.
> 
> Things that hurt people are wrong. Things that deprive certain groups of people of liberty, dignity and a decent life are wrong. They may be accepted, celebrated and form part of the fabric of society, but they are wrong.
> 
> Hiding behind cultural relativity is a way of avoiding making judgements or feeling uncomfortable about your own lack of action.


:iagree:


----------



## NobodySpecial

Lyris said:


> There are things that are objectively right and wrong, no matter what culture or society says.
> 
> Things that hurt people are wrong. Things that deprive certain groups of people of liberty, dignity and a decent life are wrong. They may be accepted, celebrated and form part of the fabric of society, but they are wrong.
> 
> Hiding behind cultural relativity is a way of avoiding making judgements or feeling uncomfortable about your own lack of action.


This is what I mean. It is also a way of pointing fingers at the supposed wrongness of someone else just because everyone else does too. Historically this has been the cause of a lot of injustice.


----------



## NobodySpecial

^^^I was under the incorrect assumption that moral and right were synonymous. I did not know that the word has come to also mean that which is generally acceptable. So the discussion was a bit weird from the get go.


----------



## Caribbean Man

Lol,
Interesting how a complex issue like morality could be modified and simplified to suit the preferences of an individual or group..
More evidence of the subjectivity of morality.


If there were no human beings on the earth, just animals and the environment , would right and wrong exist?
No

So then who determines what is morally right and morally wrong?

Human Beings.

Are morals [ right and wrong] *SUBJECT* to human interpretation?

Yes, everything that _exist_, everything that we_ perceive_ is subject to our interpretation. We can only know something exist if we perceive it.

Do all humans perceive things the same way?

No.

So how under heavens can it be said that we all perceive right and wrong the exact , same way?

Is abortion morally right or wrong?

Is the death penalty morally right or wrong?

Can killing another human being ever be morally justified?
If your answer is "sometimes", then you're admitting that whether or not killing can be morally justified_ is subjective._

“_All things are subject to interpretation. Whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth._” 
― Friedrich Nietzsche


----------



## NobodySpecial

Caribbean Man said:


> Lol,
> Interesting how a complex issue like morality could be modified and simplified to suit the preferences of an individual or group..
> More evidence of the subjectivity of morality.
> 
> 
> If there were no human beings on the earth, just animals and the environment , would right and wrong exist?
> No
> 
> So then who determines what is morally right and morally wrong?
> 
> Human Beings.
> 
> Are morals [ right and wrong] *SUBJECT* to human interpretation?


Of course they are subject to human interpretation. But the masses are not the judge of the correct interpretation.


----------



## Caribbean Man

NobodySpecial said:


> Of course they are subject to human interpretation. But the masses are not the judge of the correct interpretation.



And that's the point.

That's why I said that morality is subjective in the first place.

Whether or not you accept that society or " the masses " are the final arbitrator of the correct interpretation depends on your personal philosophy, collectivist or individualism.

That too, is subjective.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Caribbean Man said:


> And that's the point.
> 
> That's why I said that morality is subjective in the first place.


I don't agree. Truth exists outside our interpretation. We seek to understand it. But the lack in our understanding does not change the truth. When we seek to understand the world, we often get it wrong. When the ancient Romans tried to understand why the sun rose and set, they explained it with Apollo and his chariot. That they interpreted the evidence of reality incorrectly does not change the reality of how the sun rises and sets.

A more obscure example is the interpretation of what God wants from us for those who believe in God. People have been attempting to interpret the Bible for a long time. The consensus on what it means changes. Does that mean that what God wants changes simply because our understanding of it does? Or, presumably, what God, omniscient and omnipresent, wants remains fixed. It is merely our understanding of it that moves.

Though right and wrong may be philosophical principles, I think that they can be objectively understood. And I think that individuals who really want to seek right should do so. The fact is society is just an aggregate of individuals. It is not a thinking unit. Within that aggregate of individuals are those who don't care about right and wrong. Only care about self interest. There are well meaning people who are not terribly thoughtful or distracted by other people's self interest. I don't trust the aggregation of the judgement that comes from this group.


----------



## sandc

I am not a philosopher so I'm not going to be able to argue the points of truth and morality. I am a Christian though, so I know what Truth and morality is. Either way, I can speak from my own experience with swinging.

Caramel and I tried swinging at one time. I'll just give you the reader's digest version. It almost destroyed our marriage. I was disappointed with the experience, she felt used by the experience. It took years for our marriage to recover. It almost didn't. 

My advice is don't do it.


----------



## NobodySpecial

sandc said:


> I am not a philosopher so I'm not going to be able to argue the points of truth and morality. * I am a Christian though, so I know what Truth and morality is.* Either way, I can speak from my own experience with swinging.
> *
> Caramel and I tried swinging at one time.* I'll just give you the reader's digest version. It almost destroyed our marriage. I was disappointed with the experience, she felt used by the experience. It took years for our marriage to recover. It almost didn't.
> 
> My advice is don't do it.


I am curious how you explain this. I thought the Bible was pretty clear about sex and marriage.


----------



## NobodySpecial

And sand. I am sorry it was difficult for you. I am glad you and your wife are ok! Clearly, it is not without serious risk! That is why I advised the poster to the book I linked. It does a good job of explaining the risk so that something like an informed decision is more likely.


----------



## sandc

NobodySpecial said:


> I am curious how you explain this. I thought the Bible was pretty clear about sex and marriage.


Very. We were classic prodigals. However, we were also very self-righteous at the time. God used our own sins to knock us off our pedestals and convict us of our need for grace and a Saviour rather than the works-based righteousness trains of thought we had.


----------



## NobodySpecial

sandc said:


> Very. We were classic prodigals. However, we were also very self-righteous at the time. God used our own sins to knock us off our pedestals and convict us of our need for grace and a Saviour rather than works-based righteousness.


And you are in a good place now?


----------



## sandc

NobodySpecial said:


> And you are in a good place now?


Christ is our king and Savior. I'd be a liar as well as a hypocrite if I said we don't still have our struggles but overall yes. Sanctification is an ongoing process and God ALWAYS finishes the work He starts, no? And he works ALL things to the good of those whom He loves. Yeah, we're in a pretty good place now.


----------



## Caribbean Man

NobodySpecial said:


> I don't agree. Truth exists outside our interpretation. We seek to understand it. But the lack in our understanding does not change the truth. When we seek to understand the world, we often get it wrong. When the ancient Romans tried to understand why the sun rose and set, they explained it with Apollo and his chariot. That they interpreted the evidence of reality incorrectly does not change the reality of how the sun rises and sets.
> 
> A more obscure example is the interpretation of what God wants from us for those who believe in God. People have been attempting to interpret the Bible for a long time. The consensus on what it means changes. Does that mean that what God wants changes simply because our understanding of it does? Or, presumably, what God, omniscient and omnipresent, wants remains fixed. It is merely our understanding of it that moves.
> 
> Though right and wrong may be philosophical principles, I think that they can be objectively understood. And I think that individuals who really want to seek right should do so. The fact is society is just an aggregate of individuals. It is not a thinking unit. Within that aggregate of individuals are those who don't care about right and wrong. Only care about self interest. There are well meaning people who are not terribly thoughtful or distracted by other people's self interest. I don't trust the aggregation of the judgement that comes from this group.



Let me break this down to the sub atomic level.

Atheism = Moral
Agnosticism = Moral
Theism = Moral
Deism = Moral
Pantheism = Moral
Centrism = Moral

None of these groups believe in the same type of moral principles, yet they all consider themselves . moral.

Which of them are right and which are wrong?
Where does the authority come from?

For example ,it is absurd to think that we are morally superior or even moral , when the very system that makes life affordable for us in the West thrives off cheap labour and the blood and lives of those in poorer countries.

But of course, we never see it from that angle, because it isn't convenient to us.
Hence, our morality is based on our interpretation and subjective.

Using an analogy from Philosopher Ayn Rand:

"_ There is no escape from the fact that men have to make choices; so long as men have to make choices, there is no escape from moral values; so long as moral values are at stake, no moral neutrality is possible. 
To abstain from condemning a torturer, is to become an accessory to the torture and murder of his victims. 

The moral principle to adopt in this issue, is: “Judge, and be prepared to be judged._”


----------



## NobodySpecial

Caribbean Man said:


> Let me break this down to the sub atomic level.
> 
> Atheism = Moral
> Agnosticism = Moral
> Theism = Moral
> Deism = Moral
> Pantheism = Moral
> Centrism = Moral
> 
> None of these groups believe in the same type of moral principles, yet they all consider themselves . moral.


They CONSIDER themselves. That does not make it so. 

Atheism actually purports no dogma nor a moral code.



> Which of them are right and which are wrong?
> Where does the authority come from?


There is no moral authority. That's the point. Right does not come from authority. 

For example ,it is absurd to think that we are morally superior or even moral , when the very system that makes life affordable for us in the West thrives off cheap labour and the blood and lives of those in poorer countries.
[/quote]
So.... despite the ready acceptance of this practice, that which defines it as moral, you see it as immoral.

Check.


> But of course, we never see it from that angle, because it isn't convenient to us.
> Hence, our morality is based on our interpretation and subjective.
> 
> Using an analogy from Philosopher Ayn Rand:
> 
> "_ There is no escape from the fact that men have to make choices; so long as men have to make choices, there is no escape from moral values; so long as moral values are at stake, no moral neutrality is possible.
> To abstain from condemning a torturer, is to become an accessory to the torture and murder of his victims.
> _


_

The moral principle to adopt in this issue, is: “Judge, and be prepared to be judged._”[/QUOTE]

Anyway since you won't actually respond to any of my points, I will sign off. Nice chatting.


----------



## old_soldier

NobodySpecial said:


> They CONSIDER themselves. That does not make it so.
> 
> Atheism actually purports no dogma nor a moral code.
> 
> 
> There is no moral authority. That's the point. Right does not come from authority.
> 
> For example ,it is absurd to think that we are morally superior or even moral , when the very system that makes life affordable for us in the West thrives off cheap labour and the blood and lives of those in poorer countries.


So.... despite the ready acceptance of this practice, that which defines it as moral, you see it as immoral.

Check.


The moral principle to adopt in this issue, is: “Judge, and be prepared to be judged.[/I]”[/QUOTE]

Anyway since you won't actually respond to any of my points, I will sign off. Nice chatting.[/QUOTE]

My life is a collection of a very clear set of rules, or ethics that have been derived by a strict code of morals. 

In this code;
stealing is wrong (this includes the exploitation of the people of developing nations);
To lie is wrong;
Infidelity is wrong;
Coveting is wrong;
Dishonouring your superiors is wrong;
Failing to worship a higher power is wrong;

Essentially, the code is about integrity, honour, duty, loyalty, respect and courage.

Swinging, polyamoury, open marriage, and cheating are all lumped into 1 category, INFIDELITY. Negotiated or not, its wrong and disrespectful.

Adults make choices, sometimes bad choices. When they do, some try to justify those bad choices by using phrases like, " I'm an atheist, I don't have a moral code." I say horse puckies, you're just looking for excuses and justification for foul, dirty behaviour.

IMHO


----------



## NobodySpecial

^^^

It is quite clear that you have not read a single thing I have said about morality. I never once said I have no moral code. I have said quite a lot to the contrary. I sleep well at night with the reasonably certain knowledge that I spend more effort on doing right than most. You are obviously welcome to your conclusions about the morality of choices. Given no evidence of the wrongness of mine, and a lot of evidence to the contrary, yup I'm good, thanks.


----------



## Caribbean Man

NobodySpecial said:


> ^^^
> 
> .* I never once said I have no moral code. I have said quite a lot to the contrary. I sleep well at night with the reasonably certain knowledge that I spend more effort on doing right than most.* You are obviously welcome to your conclusions about the morality of choices. Given no evidence of the wrongness of mine, and a lot of evidence to the contrary, yup I'm good, thanks.


This^^^ is why I say morality is subjective.

Your moral code is way different from his, and you feel justified in keeping it that way.

But he feels the same way about his and so does every other person of the seven billion people in the world.

Everyone justifies their own beliefs and actions.

Some hold themselves accountable to God.
Some hold themselves accountable to themselves.
Some hold themselves accountable to an ideal.

People tend to adopt a system of beliefs that they can live with, one which requires the least amount of effort and discomfort


----------



## texasgladiator1957

i can honestly say that my wife and i started fantasy talking during sex about her ****ing another man and it was hot for both of us. we didnt rush into it and were very careful when we did do it and it turned out to be the hottest thing ive ever seen. i was barely to not at all jealous - in fact I wanted her more. sharing this intense experience together also added more strnegth to an already very strong long term marriage. she enjoyed it but the hardest part for us is finding the right man. weve only done it a few times in 7 yrs - shes been with 3 different men since we started. id like it to happen more often and i think it will. this is not actually swinging as i dont want to be with another woman at all. its the hotwife lifestyle where she can **** but i dont. but i am a huge part of the decision process - if i dont like him its not gonna happen. i am also still alpha - he is there for one reason - in no way does he over ride or assume any control over my wife or our life. theres no humiliation or other cuckold weirdnesses. its just f-ing HOT sex b etween my hot milf wife and another man (or men i shld post a pic...


----------



## old_soldier

texasgladiator1957 said:


> i can honestly say that my wife and i started fantasy talking during sex about her ****ing another man and it was hot for both of us. we didnt rush into it and were very careful when we did do it and it turned out to be the hottest thing ive ever seen. i was barely to not at all jealous - in fact I wanted her more. sharing this intense experience together also added more strnegth to an already very strong long term marriage. she enjoyed it but the hardest part for us is finding the right man. weve only done it a few times in 7 yrs - shes been with 3 different men since we started. id like it to happen more often and i think it will. this is not actually swinging as i dont want to be with another woman at all. its the hotwife lifestyle where she can **** but i dont. but i am a huge part of the decision process - if i dont like him its not gonna happen. i am also still alpha - he is there for one reason - in no way does he over ride or assume any control over my wife or our life. theres no humiliation or other cuckold weirdnesses. its just f-ing HOT sex b etween my hot milf wife and another man (or men i shld post a pic...


So now you belong to the world of a cuckold. Congratulations, I hope it works out for you. Hotwife be darned.


----------



## old_soldier

NobodySpecial said:


> ^^^
> 
> It is quite clear that you have not read a single thing I have said about morality. I never once said I have no moral code. I have said quite a lot to the contrary. I sleep well at night with the reasonably certain knowledge that I spend more effort on doing right than most. You are obviously welcome to your conclusions about the morality of choices. Given no evidence of the wrongness of mine, and a lot of evidence to the contrary, yup I'm good, thanks.


Like I said before, Ted Bundy admitted, in court no less, that he had his own moral code, was it right? How'd that work out for the victims of his moral code.. BTW he slept well every night as well.


----------



## old_soldier

"i shld post a pic..."

Don't bother. Just the thought of it makes me want to puke.


----------



## old_soldier

Caribbean Man said:


> This^^^ is why I say morality is subjective.
> 
> Your moral code is way different from his, and you feel justified in keeping it that way.
> 
> But he feels the same way about his and so does every other person of the seven billion people in the world.
> 
> Everyone justifies their own beliefs and actions.
> 
> Some hold themselves accountable to God.
> Some hold themselves accountable to themselves.
> Some hold themselves accountable to an ideal.
> 
> People tend to adopt a system of beliefs that they can live with, one which requires the least amount of effort and discomfort


*And self discipline.*


----------



## Regret214

Some couples like swinging and have great marriages. Some couples like swinging and wind up divorced.

Some couples don't like swinging and have great marriages. Some couples don't like swinging and wind up divorced.

Instead of trying to bash people calling them cuckold thinking that somehow you will make them feel some kind of shame, why not let this thread be where people discuss their pros/cons. Leave out your silly banter of what is moral and what is not. The simplest thing to do is have a discussion, in an adult manner about a topic of discussion. Yet, it usually winds up being a pissing match on TAM because people think they're "right" and have no idea how to let it go. Instead of having an intelligent discussion, it devolves into Wikipedia rehash on philosophy and psychology and attempting to make it sound like its an original idea that you came up with.

People are different. It really is that simple. No Wiki needed. No name calling needed. Person A believes in Jesus. Person B believes in Allah. Person C believes in Darwinism. Neither are right and neither are wrong. Some swing. Some don't. Again, neither are right and neither are wrong.


----------



## texasgladiator1957

no soldier - not cuckold.


----------



## NobodySpecial

old_soldier said:


> Like I said before, Ted Bundy admitted, in court no less, that he had his own moral code, was it right? How'd that work out for the victims of his moral code.. BTW he slept well every night as well.


And thus I thank you for making my point. Whatever Bundy THOUGHT about the morals of his actions, he was wrong.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Lyris said:


> It's interesting how everybody suddenly knew all along. Plenty of people drooling over those pics and accepting friend requests though, weren't there.
> 
> Scarlet knew from the first spamming of the pics thread. So did Dolly. I know FW and AnonPink did too.
> 
> Not a very sophisticated troll this one. And more support for my rule of basically ignoring anyone for the first 12 months.


I just found out about this. She did make a lot of friends quickly. Perhaps I should put up an avatar of a really handsome man. Wonder if it would have the same effect. People were giving her all kinds of compliments on the pics she posted on the Social spot.


----------



## NobodySpecial

ReformedHubby said:


> I just found out about this. She did make a lot of friends quickly. Perhaps I should put up an avatar of a really handsome man. Wonder if it would have the same effect. People were giving her all kinds of compliments on the pics she posted on the Social spot.


I never go over to social. One day we were having a conversation on this thread. The next he/she/it was gone. I will go on record as saying I had No Idea. Aside from being a bit touchy feely, she seemed normal to me.


----------



## rnldde009

we must swing. enjoy it.it is very nice thing.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ReformedHubby said:


> I just found out about this. She did make a lot of friends quickly. Perhaps I should put up an avatar of a really handsome man. Wonder if it would have the same effect. People were giving her all kinds of compliments on the pics she posted on the Social spot.


Why would you do this? Just as a sort of experiment?

People do it alllllllll the time and yes it is very easy to suck in a bunch of strangers to your story, esp. when using pics of someone else and wild sex stories.

Yes, a man could do it, too.

But to make it clear, this person did this deliberately, with a plan. Made up a story, made up a marriage, stole someone's pictures, made up stories about how/when the pictures were taken....of course, if someone is going to put that much energy into duping people, they will be successful.


----------



## NobodySpecial

Faithful Wife said:


> Why would you do this? Just as a sort of experiment?
> 
> People do it alllllllll the time and yes it is very easy to suck in a bunch of strangers to your story, esp. when using pics of someone else and wild sex stories.
> 
> Yes, a man could do it, too.
> 
> But to make it clear, this person did this deliberately, with a plan. Made up a story, made up a marriage, stole someone's pictures, made up stories about how/when the pictures were taken....of course, if someone is going to put that much energy into duping people, they will be successful.


I will never understand what is fun about that.


----------



## Faithful Wife

Me neither. But I have heard that whoever that particular troll was, the mods know *who*, and they have done it before and will likely do it again. And by "it" I mean, deliberately pulling people into a story and then using those "friendships" to get something out of it.


----------



## ReformedHubby

Faithful Wife said:


> Why would you do this?


Just to see what would happen. She got very popular in a hurry, which was interesting because almost everyone on here thought her lifestyle was questionable. It made me wonder if people wanted to be close to her just because they found her photos appealing. 

But....I wouldn't need an avatar. I'd just use my on pics......I kid..I kid...


----------



## elscotto

xakulax said:


> If someone where to ask me do you think swinging is a good idea I would suggest this a test run. Go out one night to a club with your SO set at a table out sight and let your partner openly flirt and dance with other of the opposite sex as you watch them if something as simple as flirting and dancing causes jealousy rear its ugly head then you should ask your self how you would feel if your SO had gone all the way.
> 
> 
> My question OP is what are you hoping to gain from that lifestyle and what are you willing to risk to get it.


My gf and I are really turned on by the idea of expanding our playpen so to speak. We haven't done it and aren't thinking of becoming "swingers" per se only to on selective occasions hook up with other people either couples or a select single. However, we have also talked about doing exactly that above and doing a "catch and release." Her question to me is what are you going to d if I don't want to release? It proves the point that you have to consider every eventuality and have ground rules.


----------



## Faithful Wife

ReformedHubby said:


> Just to see what would happen. She got very popular in a hurry, which was interesting because almost everyone on here thought her lifestyle was questionable. It made me wonder if people wanted to be close to her just because they found her photos appealing.
> 
> But....I wouldn't need an avatar. I'd just use my on pics......I kid..I kid...


Yes of course, your own pic would do the trick. 

I think it was both her pic and the naughty stories AND I heard she was PM'ing people like crazy, mostly guys...

...also heard "she" herself, was a guy. Lol!


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

bandit.45 said:


> I have too much body shame to swing. Only beautiful perfect people make good swingers I would think.
> _Posted via Mobile Device_


The swingers I know are far from beautiful perfect people. Totally average in every way but seemingly high self-esteem or... just... comfort with themselves. From what they tell me, they prefer it that way. They're very comfortable with their average bodies and they want other average bodies.

They tell me the couples are usually a rough match. Mismatches can cause some jealousy issues to creep up, especially if its a true hetero swinging thing and not a bi thing. Weirdly though, lots of bi women among the swingers I know, and the women in those relationships appear to me to be the drivers... but who knows what they're like in private.


----------



## DvlsAdvc8

Faithful Wife said:


> Yes of course, your own pic would do the trick.
> 
> I think it was both her pic and the naughty stories AND I heard she was PM'ing people like crazy, mostly guys...
> 
> ...also heard "she" herself, was a guy. Lol!


I got PM'd and a friend request too after commenting on her pic in social. Had no reason to think she was bs. I didn't see the naughty stuff till way later.

How was she/he/it found out?


----------



## Lyris

PMd me too, so not just the menfolk. But I made it clear I was not convinced of her actually existing. Bye!


----------

